Experienced clinician says psychopathy is a spectrum
PDF This week we are continuing to discuss The Psychopathic Mind by J. Reid Meloy, Ph.D. The author is diplomate in forensic psychology, former Chief of the Forensic Mental Health Division for San Diego County and Past President of the American Academy of Forensic Psychology. As I said last week, my initial reaction to the book was rather negative because I believe this author has made some assertions that have become the basis for inaccurate folklore that has spread over the internet (to be discussed in the coming weeks). But Dr. Meloy made up for all that by setting the record straight on a very important issue—the spectrum of psychopathy.
The idea that psychopathy is a spectrum and that “sociopaths/psychopaths” vary in severity means that there is no real point at which “normal” stops and “sociopath/psychopath” starts. Any decision about where to draw this line (after gathering information on a large group of people) is in a sense arbitrary.
The idea that “psychopathic disturbance” (as Dr. Meloy calls it) is a spectrum can be very confusing. Many people feel a sense of relief when they finally figure out that the person who has harmed them is “a sociopath.” By “sociopath” they mean categorically different from everyone else, a different type of human. Now I am saying there is really no category, just an extreme on a continuum.
I want to point out that we talk about the extremes of the continuum of traits as if they are categories all the time. Think about the adjectives tall, genius, beautiful, athletic etc. and you will realize that although these concepts exist in theory, it can be difficult to correctly place individuals into any of these categories on a strictly yes/no basis. The only time it is easy is when you are dealing with the extreme cases.
It is however; very important to understand how the interaction between spectra and categories affects us. For example, if you are used to being with players in the NBA, most everyone outside of the NBA will seem “short” and the perception of “tall” will also be skewed. To the NBA, 6’2″ is short!
This problem of perception while in the midst of an extreme population has created a problem for forensic psychology. When Dr. Hare first developed the psychopathy checklist, it was thought to differentiate criminals who are “psychopaths” from other criminals who are “not psychopaths.” Well, I maintain that this is exactly the same as calling a 6’2″ NBA player “short.”
I am also concerned with how our perception of psychopathy changes when we see it in the community. When we are in the community a person who has “a little” psychopathy stands out as a 6’2″ person would in a crowd. Many pose the question, “Is my _______ a jerk or a psychopath?” When we understand psychopathy as a spectrum we see that such distinctions are not very useful. It is more useful to ask “How much psychopathic disturbance does my ________ have?”
I have looked extensively in the scientific literature for the exact Psychopathy Checklist (PCL-R) scores that might indicate mild, moderate and severe psychopathic disturbance. If you are following what I am saying you will immediately realize that these definitions are important in determining just how many “psychopaths” there are. When I searched the literature several years ago, I reported on this blog that about 10% of the population has significant psychopathy. That 10% figure corresponds to a cut-off score of about 12 on the PCL-R.
In The Psychopathic Mind, p. 318 Dr. Meloy says the following:
Mild psychopathic disturbance 10-19
Moderate psychopathic disturbance 20-29
Severe psychopathic disturbance 30-40
This is more or less what I also determined given my clinical experience and reading of the literature. You might ask why I harp on this so much and why am I harping on it again? The reason I bring this all up is to help those of you who are stuck in a relationship with someone who has “mild psychopathic disturbance.” Steve Becker also talked about the problem of “mild psychopathy” this week When he’s just a bad dude, though he did not call it that.
In what I am about to say I depart from Meloy and give you my own opinion.
The nature of “Mild Psychopathy”
Psychopathic disturbance as Meloy also describes it is a disorder of motives. Since we all have these motives psychopathy is a spectrum. Psychopathy is an imbalance between love and power motives along with degrees of poor impulse control.
A person who is severely affected with psychopathy has no love motives at all. If we could perfectly measure the love motive, we could indeed form a category of those who have NO capacity for love. That category probably also includes some individuals with “moderate disturbance” and all with “severe disturbance.”
Individuals with mild psychopathy have some ability to love. Because they can love a little, what they do is particularly harmful to “loved ones.” They switch back and forth, in and out of “loving” states. When they are in a loving state, they truly have no emotional or other memory of their experiences outside of that state. Similarly when they are in the “power mode” they have no access to the memories of the love mode. It’s as if they have a split personality. Their poor partner is left asking, “Will the real ________ please stand up?”
The dilemma for partners and family members, is that both states are real. Those involved with the “mildly psychopathic” have to make a tough decision. They have to decide whether or not to let go of a person who they have shared real intimacy with. That is much harder than letting go of someone with severe psychopathic disturbance where the entire relationship was a sham.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
bulletproof says:
sistersister- oh yes what a sexy post!!! I’m off down town to drape myself in what I think is beautiful…to hell with everyone…I am coming BACK to me…and I know I’m powerful, beautiful and worth millions of eh ….what ….millions of things…yes things…..dont know what they are yet but I want millions of em!!!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sistersister!!!
TAWANDA girl friend!!! Thanks for your great and STRONG post. You are right! I want to tell the truth, but I’m still even afraid to tell the truth for fear someone may be offended.
Yea, there is TACT! and I think we should ALL use some TACT (My late husband said “tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell and make them HAPPY to be on their way”) But what I call TACT is that you can tell a “girl her face would stop TIME, or tell her it would STOP A CLOCK.” So I DO think we can tell the truth in a “nice” way, but we still must tell the TRUTH.
Thanks, Sistersister, this is why I stay at LF because I learn new lessons every day and thank you for being today’s TEACHER with a good, strong, truthful lesson. I appreciate you!
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sistersister says:
Nah. Don’t even try to be nice.
Like I said, save your energy for real human beings.
It doesn’t even matter if spaths know what they do, or know not what they do. Either way, it’s like talking to a wall.
Say whatever you want to a wall. Just don’t get hurt.
Thanks to everyone for their kind appreciation! Another round of Orange Juliuses, on me!
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Hopeforjoy says:
Bulletproof,
Millions of good things, whatever they may be, lots of good things. You escaped spathyville so it’s all good!
Sistersister,
Your call to every woman (and man) to be themselves, to open the door to every possiblity, really lovely. Own up to our part in the mess and get a fire lit under our expanding butts. Yay!!!!!!
Just a note about boundaries, I set them with spath and was clear about not wanting him to touch me. He says “just a hug?” “just a kiss? we’ve known each other for 20 years!” My answer was no, so he comes up behind me and says “touch” while touching my arm then runs away. OMG!!! This freak I can’t get to leave the house and my attorney says to stay until we have an agreement on belongings, etc. I told him that I will do whatever it takes to protect myself and my children. I don’t care who he fools with his carp, he isn’t fooling me any longer.
Just venting, today was another steller day but everyday I feel a little better.
I just love the spunk of the posters on LF, they get it. TOWANDA! I finally get that one too, I loved “Fried Green Tomatoes!”
There is a quote I read in my speech book yesterday and I wanted to share it with you all…
For every woman who is tired of acting weak when she knows she is strong, there is a man who is tired of appearing strong when he feels vulnerable.
For every woman who is tired of being called “an emotional female,” there is a man who is denied the right to weep and to be gentle.
For every woman who is called unfeminine when she competes, there is a man for whom competition is the only way to prove his masculinity.
I thought of my son when I read this and the importance of teaching him that emotions are part of our humanity. Having a spath father, I need to be more attuned to this.
Thanks for letting me share!
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jeannie812 says:
Erin,
Jim missed on years of his kid’s life. He hasn’t seen them since they were little, and the kids are now in their mid-teens.
He found a sneaky way to contact them.
His daughters were home alone during summer vacation while their mother works. Jim would call his daughters during the day and instruct the girls to delete his number off the caller id.
He is also chatting online with them at night after their mother goes to bed. He also plays yahoo games online with them until late night.
Jim thought he was being pretty slick. Except for one thing. I’ll bet he never bargained on his daughters questioning their mother. Asking why can’t they talk to their dad, why can’t they see their dad.
I believe this is what happened because their mother told them about the stuff I found in Jim’s computer years ago. The teen porn.
Yes, I called his ex years ago to ask about her experience with him.
I do regret making that call. I shouldn’t have. I don’t know how else to explain it except that I craved validation so bad. I couldn’t get validation from Jim. He said nothing is wrong, the problem is me. That I called his ex to get validation. Isn’t that crazy? But, I felt like he was driving me crazy, that I did something crazy to stop feeling crazy.
yikes…..
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OxDrover says:
I love Orange Juliuses, I sort of came up with a recipe for them.
In a blender put some ice, usually 4-5 cubes, fill with OJ to near the top, add sweetner ( or sugar) and a Teaspoon of malt powder, and a tsp of vanilla. I used to put raw eggs in too, but don’t do that any more. BLEND until ice is “gone” and PRESTO, you have a passable Orange Julius.
I also do a pretty good copy of those cold capichinos that they sell in the little milk bottles at the store. Essentially the same thing, only use milk as a base, with some coffee, vanilla and malt powder, adjust to taste but no ice cubes or blender. Just stir.
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Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
regarding this comment above
pathwhisperer says:
What I don’t understand is why hasn’t genetic analysis settled this argument? We could argue until the end of time. The DNA of such psychopaths as Michael Swango, Ira Einhorn and Wayne Williams (or use Hare’s PCL-R to select the sociopathic sample) should be compared against each other and against the norm. Then we would know, as a fact, if it’s an on-off condition or a spectrum. I can’t understand how this hasn’t been done already.
My reply:
It has been settled already. Genetic analysis also points to the disorder being a spectrum and to the environment influencing the expression of certain genes. As much as we would like to divide our species into good and evil, “human” or not, unless you pick a yes/no variable like murderer, you cannot create a category. So there is a category formed by the individuals you mentioned only “psychopathy/sociopathy” does not create the category.
The other reason there is no category is “choice” and “free will”. There are some people with the temperamental traits of psychopathy who by an act of will based on a logical analysis of the costs/benefits choose not to do evil to others. Are these individuals then not more human, especially since the capacity for choice most defines us in comparison to animals?
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hopeful6596 says:
Dr. Leedom:
You wrote:
“There are some people with the temperamental traits of psychopathy who by an act of will based on a logical analysis of the costs/benefits choose not to do evil to others. Are these individuals then not more human, especially since the capacity for choice most defines us in comparison to animals?”
I’m assuming you mean that there are many people who have low or no conscience that COULD commit terrible violent crimes but do not, because the cost to THEMSELVES would be too great? For instance, he thinks, “I found myself a SWEET deal with a sugar mama and I’m not gonna get caught!” Because, if you’re implying that they can indefinitely change their behavior at will, doesn’t this preclude them from being a sociopath as we know them?
Hopeful6596
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bulletproof says:
So many sociopaths must fall into the category of ‘act of will’ preventing them getting caught….what is scary then is the deep seated unconscious desire to fulfill their potential….an alcoholic also uses act of will to stop drinking but has a human side emerge that feels remorse and ultimately is capable of rehabilitation back into human being….what is there for the “well behaved psychopath” who must sit surpressed even though they really want to express themselves??
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OxDrover says:
Nah, I think it is like a cat, stalking a mouse….she prevents herself springing too soon and thus losing the mouse, but if a dog comes along or is near and she thinks the dog might get her if she focuses on the mouse, she may give up going after the mouse at all BY AN ACT OF WILL. It is simply weighing the odds…I think, not kindness or lack of intent.
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hopeful6596 says:
Oxy and Bullet:
Steve Becker wrote, “When Sociopaths follow the rules” and here is an exerpt. He says:
And so there is a certain irony here. Yes, the sociopath, in the greater scheme of things, is a rule-breaker, a transgressor with a seriously defective conscience. And yet, at least in many cases, in the smaller scheme of things, he is a good enough rule follower to abet the construction of the very mask behind which he unconscionably violates, or surely will unconscionably violate, his victim(s).
I don’t think it’s a matter of a sociopath saying, “hey this sociopath thing isn’t working for me or anyone else. I think I’m going to live my life with integrity.”
Also, Dr. Steve wrote an article about the pathological lying of the sociopath using even TRUTH to manipulate because it makes them seem more credible. Makes sense. Mine was an egregious liar and will tell you just enough truth. Does this make him a nicer person? Hell no!
Hopeful6596
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bluejay says:
hopeful6596,
Yes, the h-spath will mix truth in with his lying, creating just another b.s. story – half truths, half lies.
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hopeful6596 says:
I think I’m unclear as to what Dr. Leedom is saying. If she is saying that they can indefinitely change their behavior, doesn’t this preclude them from being a sociopath? I’m confused, but then again, sometimes I need everything qualified. I also think that is part of the aftermath of spathisodes with a spath. Such an incredible mind f***. You don’t know what’s real and what isn’t.
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OxDrover says:
No she isn’t saying they can “change” or even “want to” change, but that they can manipulate anything, I THINK.
Yea, they do mix the truth with lies. Just like RAT POISON is 98% PURE CORN MEAL, AND 2% POISON, it will STILL KILL you though it is MOSTLY GOOD food. LOL
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hopeful6596 says:
Oxy,
OOOH, great analogies, Oxy OX!
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chinagirl says:
smoke and mirrors….that is life with spath!
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behind_blue_eyes says:
My x-spath’s is independent, friendly, chilled, and reserved — all his words. In person he comes across as responsible, well-mannered and law abiding, even waiting at corners for lights to change before crossing.
Does he conciously choose this mask or is it part nature, part nirture? I think a little of all.
It certainly suits him well, allowing him to use an innocent, responsible exterior to mask one of the darkest sexual beings I have ever met.
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Ox Drover says:
As chinagirl said “Smoke and mirrors”—-I think they try to keep up “appearances” and to play a role, consciously or unconsciously, but it is all about manipulating others to do their bidding.
I don’t think they even eat an ice cream cone just for pleasure, I think they do everything for the effect it has, or the image it presents. It isn’t about what is REAL it is about what they can appear to be. To them, I think, if they can get others to believe it, then it becomes “reality” as far as they are concerned.
Sick? Yea! Reality may suck at times, but it is at least REAL! If that makes any sense!~well maybe not, but it’s late and I need to go to bed!G’nite
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fearlesspeace says:
Regarding the part truths they tell: reading Dr. Hare’s book and in repeated interviews with experienced S/P’s (criminals) they consistently report mixing in the truth as a strategy to make people believe what they say.
Hopefully, understanding this piece of the puzzle we can be on the look out for this type of behavior to avoid this trap in the future. I say, if you see this behavior once, don’t question, just note the inconsistency and the doubt in your gut. If you see this behavior twice, don’t walk run!
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teacher123 says:
Oxy,
Yes there are some who seem to do everything for an effect like they are fiddler on the roof while the rest of the world are plain hobos. What I find interesting about psychology, and the study of psychopathy is that who defines what normal is? They say that there is a fine line between genius and insanity, and in that they are correct. A shifting spectrum is the mind of man. Even normal people can have thoughts and actions that are on the crazy side while mad people can have their moments of love and clarity. I guess that is when you have to look at the big picture of the person, and their patterns of behavior. A complicated subject. It is a crazy world in which we live. Good thing there is an established rule book to go on for many of us, but even that is very muddy and hazy at points.
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bulletproof says:
fearlesspeace – Yes the part truths….what an important point, that’s the gaslighting bit, where the P sprinkled truth in with lies in such a balance to completely pull me in…I assumed he was truthfull but he was truth-half!!!how crazy making because you cannot say he is a complete liar and if you cannot say that –you have no conclusive evidence….how can you tell someone is mixing truth with lies…it would take some time for them to be caught out in a mistake then wouldn’t it? by that time alot of damage could be done. Only defense is assume everyone is lying untill you catch them out in a truth?….cannot get my head around this….cannot
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Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
hopeful says:
Because, if you’re implying that they can indefinitely change their behavior at will, doesn’t this preclude them from being a sociopath as we know them?
My response:
Genes do not code for choices. Genes code for proteins. These proteins make a person. Choices make a sociopath. That is why genetics does not identify sociopaths as a different species.
I am teaching abnormal psychology again this semester and noticed this week that the textbook we are using makes no mention of the role choices play in all mental illness. For example, many people with schizophrenia hear voices telling them to do terrible things. Only a small minority actually do what the voices tell them to do. In my practice I saw many people who suffered a great deal with depression/anxiety but didn’t let anyone know because they did not want to be a burden. I saw others who did the opposite. Choice is very important yet not often discussed.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
‘In my practice I saw many people who suffered a great deal with depression/anxiety but didn’t let anyone know because they did not want to be a burden. I saw others who did the opposite.’
i do hope this paradigm of the ‘noble (and alone) and the burdensome’ was set up only to make a point – otherwise it is a paradigm of unhealthy choice and external judgment. living with depression and anxiety is a frightening proposition regardless of other’s reactions, but the fear and ignorance that people have to deal with on a daily basis can compound their challenges to the point that they are unable to cope. We all need support in very real ways in our lives, especially people who have greater challenges.
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bulletproof says:
William Glasser and choice theory …the ability to choose and the differences across the disorders..?? maybe not what you mean, perhaps check it out
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kim frederick says:
I don’t think the ones at the high extreme ARE capable of choosing to do the right thing. I think they know right from wrong on a superfiscial level, like Dr. Hare says, they know the words,but they don’t know the tune….I think that puzzle peice that allows the vast majority of people to choose to do the right thing is just plain missing in them. That particular peice is labled empathy, compassion, conscience, learning by trial and error, selective self-sacrifice for the good of the other, choosing relationship over self service. etc.etc.etc.
It doesn’t matter what happened to the missing peice, whether they were born without it, or whether it got lost along the way, they will never get it back…It’s gone gone gone.
But if you assume that that puzzle peice is the peice that makes us human, and is the thing that makes it possible for us to choose to do the right thing, then do psychopaths truley have a choice? Won’t they ALWAYS choose to do what ever they deem as best for themselves? What on earth would ever make them choose anything other-wise? I don’t think they are capable of choosing for the better good.
The next question is what do we do about it?
And I do agree that there is a spectrum, and on the lower end that peice might be damaged, but there is an inkling of conscience, and SOME empathy, and those are the ones that hurt us the most. If they can choose to do the right thing then why don’t they?
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Vision says:
Hi all, I have been getting on with my new life and I am back to comment a bit…….I did keep reading…..Well, what a great article…Now I know what is going on with my daughter….She is a mild sociopath…She drives us all crazy….I have been putting up with her extreme verbal abusive which follows with no remorse and then she swings to a state of “normal” talk, she does show love, she takes good care of her son, 4, and will show empathy……..She will do this switch back and forth all day. She acts as if she hates her husband and has no respect for him……Why would she? She has no respect for me at all……I have given support both money and other now for years since the birth of my grandson…I am only here for him…..But now I am putting true boundaries on my life with her…I feel very free now that many things are clear to me…..I have to give her up to God…..I can do many good things to show I love her but not let her abuse or use me…..Maybe my decisions will effect my grandson but he will always be safe with me around….I believe her years with drugs changed her…she was not this way as a child…..after the drugs this happened….and she still does pot…..(If pot is so great why isn’t she calmer?) side point………………..But anyhow, I comment on the post Bad Guy about the movie THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY…..It is about 3 greedy bad gunfighters seeking treasure…..they are all SP’s but at different degrees…..the good not so bad, the bad the worst, and the ugly not so bad more dumb…..But they are all bad…….Not a very great example but one I sure can identify with since I love Clint Eastwood and watched this movie many times over and never saw this…….good lessons for me….I guess we all have our stages of enlightenment so to speak…..I will watch a sitcom or two at times and see SP’s maybe mild, like Cary in the “King of Queens”….she looks and acts like my daughter only my daughter is worse and will be real mean and verbally abusive. So if you think she is bad, my d is far worse….Thanks for an enlightening article….it sure helps figure out my d for me…..I wasn’t sure what she is….Bi-P or what…
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bulletproof says:
one step
A good friend of mine developed post natal depression after the birth of her first (and only) baby daughter. She completely changed from an outgoing quirky really smart woman into a snivelling wreck. I sat next to her at work and when she finally came back to work, she looked the picture of health, a beautiful baby at home….but day by day she began to literally descend into a black pit of doom. she had every rescue remedy, homeopathic cure lined up on her desk as we all looked on not quite sure what to do.
I instinctively felt nothing anyone was saying helped, in fact it just made her worse. Her husband was getting ‘irritated’ with what looked like a self indulgent pity party for herself…but it was so much more than that…her eyes sunk, her diet changed, she moved differently…and what came from her eyes when she could make eye contact was “help me…I don’t know where I am…it’s dark and there is no hope…I think i’m dying” her voice was tiny, I felt as if I was in the presence of a small child lost in a scary place.
every luchtime we went to the park…where she walked slowely, sat and ate her sandwich and we just hung out (she was so down, I had to be really carefull to keep a line drawn)…I refused to enable her…or agree with her on her view of the world…I just listened, nodded, held her hand sometimes, let her cry and so every day was like this for about 6 months…her husband had escalated into shouting at her in frustration, all her family were trying to get her to take medication, anything to get it to stop.
she was hospitalised, was in group therapy…came back out
She could just about manage with her daughter, she loved her but was overwhelmed with the responsibility…terrified of the vulnerability…it was like she was stripped emotionally to the bone. She was so fragile and sensitive that I sometimes felt really cruel if I got impatient with her (and I did) she went to a counsellor and did lots of talk therapy and it emerged that she had too many losses to process and she had got overwhelmed, she needed to go back and process the loss, grieve and make sense of everything
Things proceeded to get worse not better, the company went bust…we were all let go..no jobs…and it was in this spectacular rock bottom she began to laugh… I recognised the old character coming back and eventually she came out of it and seemed to use humour to do it….we rolled around the place laughing at how shit everything was…there was nothing!! it actually was a turning point for both of us looking back and life got better and better…new jobs…she is now happy and back to usual…
she says she will NEVER forget those lunchtimes when she was nearly unreachable…she was conscious and knew exactely what was going on…she was totally dependent on my mercy and presence…nothing was said but there was no judgement just acceptance, everyharsh word scalded her, she could NOT shake herself out of it….she did not want to be a burden but she WAS…couldn’t help it…her husband was at his wits end looking after everything…
depression demands respect.. someone is lost in a maze and they CANNOT get out…you have to wait with them being sure they do not drag you under too…they go through a process of trying to find their way out and every one is unique in what the combination is to get out….but while they are in there in that black mist, they are lost….and I am sickened by the over medicating (further loss of way) even though I know without it some would take their life…so it’s a nessecity sometimes…
but what works the best in my opinion is patience, respect, trust in that person ability to find their own way out and a refusal to go down onto the depths with them, but stay strongly in the present moment…our friendship deepend and she is very well today…I would say she is more compassionate than most people, is very kind in a generous open way but her depression came out of the blue. She would not have any more children in case it came back….we are meeting up soon, she met the P with me when all was rosy in the garden….eh…I have a long story to tell her…..she can hold my hand this time!!
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kim frederick says:
Vision, She might be a borderline personality…they have severe mood swings and problems with anger…check it out, and good luck. You sound like you’re doing great.
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kim frederick says:
BP, Your friend is truley blessed to have you…I’m so glad she got better, and I’m glad she can be there for you now.
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Ox Drover says:
Situational depression, “too many losses to process all at once”—boy can I relate to that! I think many of us here can!
I know a lady who is a nurse but also a professional grief counselor and I attended a 3-day seminar on grief and helping our patients who were expereincing grief. She was one of the speakers. The subject of her talk was on “presenceing” or just “being present” for the griever. You don’t have to say anything but just BE PRESENT for the person.
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Vision says:
Hi Kim………….thanks, and maybe she is borderline…I will continue to search here and others might help me figure her out….She is very dramatic when she is trying to talk about something…She will be so up and her eyes are very wide open and she is almost aggressive in nature telling me something….from a small thing to a bigger thing…..and she isn’t mean then, just very loud and dramatic………….then she calms a bit when she is folding laundry lets say, and will go into a calm……then if she is confronted with someone dropping a bottle or spilling something or not doing what she feels is “smart” like we are all stupid, well then she gets mean and ugly…..and her tone is so nasty and ugly…..When I helped her move recently, she didn’t like what I was doing so instead of calmly talking about the best way to do things she started to get verbal and abusive. After taking it for a while, I popped and told her I would slap her if she kept it up….wouldn’t really do it….(I am not a hitter nor a spanker, although I thing I should have disciplined her more as she grew)….but anyhow, she then jumped over boxes and put her fist in my face and with demon eyes threatened me as she frothed at the mouth……I felt like she was a spawn of Satan…..she is 30…..it is horrible to be around her…..god only knows how she is raising my grandson to be so sweet…….but now he talks back very loudly and will imitate her….groan,…I am glad he will be in school away from her for a while….he loves to leave and come with me…..I try to talk out everything with him and he gets peace with me….a little haven I hope…..
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Vision says:
Hi Oxy, do you have any thought on my last post here?
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Ox Drover says:
Your daughter sounds to me like she needs to be evaluated by a trained mental health professional and maybe needs some medication and/or therapy. Parenting classes would maybe help.
I wouldn’t “threaten” her even in jest, she sounds a bit volitile to me. Of course her son will pick up on the behaviors that she models for him;.
If he does these behaviors when he is with you, I would calmly tell him that “we don’t do that at Grandma’s house” By school age kids can know that the rules are different at your house and at home and respect your rules of behavior. God bless and good luck (((Hugs))))
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Vision says:
Thanks Oxy, I so respect your comments since I know you have been through the grinder…..I also have been teaching him to “let us talk nice…..we don’t need to shout…..etc” ………….did you get to make fried green tomatoes this summer? I intend to make some before the end, I had to work all summer at extra job……..
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kim frederick says:
Yummmmm. Fried green mators. Now you made me want some.
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Vision says:
Them and some sweet corn with lots of butter……fresh light biscuits and some fried chicken….!!!!
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kim frederick says:
Throw in some peach cobbler for desert.
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Ox Drover says:
SHUT UP YOU GUYS!@ I’M ON A FREAKING DIET!!!!!! LOL
Nah, I didn’t make any fried green anything this year. Didn’t even plant a plant except my elephant garlic. Harvested my home grown potatoes and have enjoyed them, but am honestly trying to lose some weight. It makes it more difficult since I quit smoking but I am trudging along. I lost 3-4 pounds this past week, and have to keep up the spirit!
Trying to “get healthy” eat less and exercise more. Weather is perfect today, wonderful FALL weather like when I was a kid, crisp night (not cold) and warm with lo humidity day with sunshine.
Actually we are DRY. NEED rain, even the multiflora rose vines (a WEED you can’t kill) are drying up and dropping their leaves! DEATH TO THEM ALL! but is a sign that things are not well. Trees all dropping leaves and no color, some marginal trees even dying. Wet spring, and DRY summer, not much hay—hottest average since records kept, even worse than 1980!
I do have some meat in the refrigerator in a crock being turned into CORNED BEEF though, it has another week to go before it is ready, then I’ll get a head of cabbage and make us some corn beef and cabbage! Hadn’t made any in a long time as I was having trouble finding the marinaide stuff for corning the beef (actually pickling) and I use generic “pickling spice” for the spice in it. Cover with brine, and put in refrigerator and turn every day or two for 21-45 days, then you BOIL it to cook (have to cook it that way to get the excess salt out) then use like any corn beef. YUM and is LOW fat meat as I don’t use the fatty portions to make corn beef. Actually there aren’t many “fatty” portions on my cows.
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kim frederick says:
OMG Oxy! That is probably my favorite meal of allll time. My Scottish Grandfather taught my Norweigan Motherhow to cook it before I was born, and I love it.
I have never cornned it myself, though, just buy itin the store, but it sounds like a fun project. I saw Emiril Lagassi do it on TV once, and thought then I’dlike to try it. I neverknew that Pastrami is smoked corned beef. jThat was a new one too.
Let me know how yours turns out. If I can find a briskit at the store, (on sale) I might be asking you how to do it
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style1 says:
Murder hits too close to home…
http://blog.womenexplode.com/2.....-home.aspx
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Ox Drover says:
Kimmie, I didn’t know that pastrami is “smoked corn beef” either.
I use 3 inch thick round steaks that i have the butcher cut for me, but you can use any solid piece of meat as it will get tender when you corn and boil it.l
Morton’s TENDER QUICK (You may have trouble finding it) you mix up according to directions for brine (makes 4 cups) and then you thow in “some” pickling spices (a palm not too full) and put the meat in. KEEP IT 100% UNDER THE WATER—you may have to weight it down with something heavy I usually use a cup filled with water. If ANY part of the meat sticks up it will ROT. Anyway, keep it under water, and turn it every day or so. The water will start to look nasty but don’t worry, it can’t “go bad” Let the meat get corned all the way through and then it is ready. It does not freeze well because of the high salt content, so eat it fresh is best. Just boil til done and tender (it will still look red) I like less fatty pieces than the brisket but you can use whatever piece you want.
That is the old way they used to preserve beef was by corning it. It needs to be done at less than 45 degrees (the usual temp of a refrigerator) I used to do it in glass gallon jars on my back porch in the winter time when the temp would be 45 or less all the time. It won’t freeze because of the salt content in the water but you don’t want it above 45 for long.
You CAN freeze it after you boil it though and it will keep for a while (month or so, just wrap tightly so no air gets to it and then put in a plastic bag and squeeze the air out of that)
That’s oxy’s cooking lesson, corned beef, for today! Now you’ve gone and got my mouth watering!
Son D and I are going to the auction tonight. Weather is lovely. Time to start christmas shopping anyway! Hope I don’t see the X-DIL-P tonight! She always reminds me of an “egg sucking dog slinking around on it’s belly”
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kim frederick says:
Thanks forthelesson Oxy. One question, can you corn it in a freezer? I livein Florida, and while it does get below 45 degrees in the winter, it isn’t always, and theres a good chance it could be up to 80 degrees, occasionally. Like one week before Xmas, last year…so I can’t count on it staying below 45 degrees.
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Ox Drover says:
No, do it in the refrigerator, which is about 45 degrees. That is PERFECT IN THE FRIDGE. Freezer would not work. I use the refrigerator here since our weather has been so screwy and can’t count on it being proper temp any more.
Even getting 2-3 days to kill and process a beef (first day kill, gut and remove hide and hang meat to chill) next process is cut up and freeze. Temps should be 32-45 degrees during the night AND the day and not above 45 or much below 32 during the night. Last year we only found one set of days in MARCH to work where we could be reasonably sure and it was only 2 days 4-5 days is better as the meat has less WATER in it if it is allowed to chill and drain several days. I did save a bunch of money doing it myself, we did 2 animals In 2 days (3 of us) but were BEAT when we were done. Killed them both the first day and processed the next day, I was TIRED. Won’t do that again even with 3 people and a big grinder. Don’t need that much meat now with son C gone. I’m not feeding the starving hoards of some army now. LOL
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Vision says:
Okay, now I am drooling…..fried chicken tonight! I quit smoking and gain 30 pounds….but after this weekend….diet for me too!! Lets keep each other motivated between posts!! thanks for the love today!! Its wonderful to know we are not alone….HUGSSSS
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one_step_at_a_time says:
bp – ‘waiting with’. it’s *the* thing. the most precious thing we can give and receive when there is struggle. your depth of humanity is striking.
hugs, one step
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bulletproof says:
one step- thanks that is good to hear…..and yet I fell in love with a psychopath..and if you can read depth of humanity…you know and I know …you have it too…which is extra hurtful when met with a remorseless entity…it’s beyond words to describe how devastating it is to be fooled…you know it…xx
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Ox Drover says:
I’ve read several places that it isn’t so much the LOSS as the BETRAYAL that devastates us. The LOSS of my husband was terrible, I can’t even imagine what it would have been if he had BETRAYED me as well.
You know, though, on the thought of “I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet” thing, today I met a woman who has had it worse than any of us here that I can imagine…. Her P-brother in law (she doesn’t know him as a P but only as an SOB) had been running her, her sister, and her husband (his brother) off the road, having his kids attack theirs, and on and on and on, when she was about 30, her BIL ran her husband off teh road and killed him in the wreck, then she was left a widow with 2 small boys and her husband gone (couldn’t of course prove anything on her brother in law so he got off scot free) then her house burned (no insurance) and she is just a nice little country red-neck gal with the closest jobs 50 miles down the mountain which takes a couple of good jack asses to get to the top of, but she made it, and in the meantime was a scout master for her boys and the neighbor kids, worked at the Dove house, answered the emergency line, got up and went to get women in the middle of the night to take them to the shelter, and now my son D (who knew her through scouts) and I ran in to her today and he introduced me to her and told me her story.
You know, no matter how strong I thought I was, this woman makes me look like the 90 pound weakling, cause I know I would have killed the SOB and been in prison myself, but she raised her boys and she is building herself a small 10 x 24 ft house with a sleeping loft out of materials she has salvaged or bought second hand. My son and I helped her unload a truck load of lumber at her land and saw what a nice job she was doing on her new place. Right now her kitchen is in a horse stall she put in a concrete floor into in her semi-open barn.
I just wanted to share this story with you guys, because I was so impressed with this spunky little lady. So no matter how we feel we have “hit bottom” or been beaten down by the psychopath—we have a spunky little gal who lives on a hill in Arkansas who doesn’t even know she is a guiding light for me and probably others as well.
In Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s search for meaning” he talks about how no “tragedy” is worse than another one, that all pain and loss is equal because it is ALL TOTAL LOSS and TOTAL PAIN, but this gal has had more than her share of loss and she is still going strong so if she can do it so can I!!!! Just meeting this impressive lady made my day! Each of you also contribute to my morale each day as well, so thanks to “Sue” (not her real name) and thanks to each of you!!!!! Just for being brave!
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Oxdrover;
This story is incredible. It makes me feel like a whiny little brat with my issues. It also motivates me to really get my act moving, so when I hear genuine stories such as this, I can do something to help. I am done chasing material possessions and corporate success. I am happy with a roof over my head, minimal possessions and the desire to do things to help people. All I need in life is to travel so I can learn and help.
Today was a very interesting day for me. It marks the two year anniversary of the start to the events that almost brought me down. More important, today my mother buried her oldest friend. I am adopted, and to this friend and her family were the first people I was brought to when leaving the foundling hospital. Her death allowed me to see extended family members I had not seen in years.
Two years ago, I was in such a bad state that I wanted to go someplace else and start new. I would create a new persona and have glamorous new friends. I would only contact the past when absolutely necessary. Along the way, I met a sociopath who did just that and I was envious.
Thankfully, all that has happened made me realize the folly of such thoughts and today, in a sense, I have come full circle, reconnecting with the last part of my extended family. In a couple of days, I will be sending out Facebook friend invites to all, and my brother and I are already planning something with some of them at the month’s end.
It is also the x-spath’s birthday. I had to think of the loss, but I did not let my mind go there. I focused on the betrayal. The lies, the mirroring of my dreams, the leading me on then leaving me when I needed him most. Thank god it was short.
But in a way, I see it all as a blessing in disguise. Had this death occurred last year or two years ago, I would have used the excuse of being out of the country to avoid attending. Now, as I write this, I realize that despite the sadness of the day, I am happy to have such a large extended family, some of it now perhaps virtual.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Behind Blue eyes,
Yep, it is a humbling experience for sure! I read Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book, “Man’s Search for Meaning” which he wrote after several years in the Nazi death camps in which time he lost everything except his very life….I suggest that you (and all of us really) read that wonderful book….It made me (at first) feel kind of guilty for being a “whiney butt” but then, wonderful man that he was, he talked about how PAIN IS TOTAL for each of us. That no one “loses” more or less than another, it is all TOTAL. So, I got a new way of looking at things. I also got a lesson today that periodically I must relearn it seams that “I cried when I had no shoes until I saw a man who had no feet.” To appreciate my blessings EVERY DAY, and to start with the very basics of having clean water and a place to lay my head.
I admire this woman because I know that in her position then, I would have killed that man who murdered my husband if the law wouldn’t have….and that would have been wrong for me to do. Now, I’m not sure I would go after the man to kill him, even if the law didn’t take him to account. (I won’t say the thought wouldn’t cross my mind!)
I wasted too many days and nights as it is thinking about revenge and how I could accomplish it…being bitter….angry…thinking ugly thoughts, worthy only of a psychopath…but I don’t want to BE that person who thinks those ugly thoughts, who plots nasty revenge…I want to be better than that! I want to CELEBRATE my life and count and feel gratitude for the blessings I have and for the wonderful examples I have seen, like the woman I met today.
I stood there on her porch and listened to her talk about what all she had done since she and my son had last seen each other…she’s still working for the DV shelter, and currently is building her house, raising her youngest son who will be on his own soon….and sheltering a young man who is essentially homeless as well as having custody of his 2 year old child….she’s got so little and yet, she is still GRACIOUSLY giving back…helping, but not enabling.
I’m glad her story resonated with you too, BBE, she’s one of those people I will never forget—though I may never see her again, she is in my heart and prayers forever! I wanna be just like her when I grow up! God bless the survivors in this world who light a lamp that we may follow!!! TOWANDA!!!!
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kim frederick says:
God bless the little red-neck girl who lives on a hill in Arkansas. makes me think of that song by Stevie Nicks, Sara.
Sara, you’re the poet in my heart,
when you build your house then call me. Call me.
But, them again, I have to build my own house, don’t I?
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