Who is the sociopath?
PDF What a difficult question this is—exactly what defines the sociopath?
Joseph Neuman Ph.D, psychopathy researcher, in an extensive interview (see link to this interview previously provided by Donna Anderson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmZgnCHweLM) addresses this and other questions about psychopaths.
Neuman’s research, if I understand him correctly (and I did not find him to be particularly clear in his explanations) yields a picture of the psychopath, surprisingly, not as primarily emotionally defective, but rather as emotionally defective secondary to certain forms of attentional problems.
Neuman makes some interesting and, to my mind, somewhat puzzling observations. For instance, and consistent with his basic premise, he actually suggests that psychopaths may be more inclined to genuinely assist someone they perceive to be in need than non-psychopaths. Did I hear that correctly? I think so.
Neuman also suggests that the psychopath’s capacity for this kind of humane response is unfortunately, or effectively, nullified (in others’ eyes) by his more antisocial, knucklehead behaviors. Did I hear this correctly, too? I think I did.
Neuman’s basic premise—again, if I understand him correctly—is that psychopaths aren’t so much fundamentally defective emotionally as much as their emotional capacities which, alas, may be much more normal than otherwise appreciated, are essentially obscured, effectively immobilized, by their over-attention, their over-focus on their particular, momentary interest(s).
So, to be clear, if I’m understanding Neuman, he’s suggesting that psychopaths (at least some, if not many) may indeed have normal emotions, perhaps even a normal range of emotions; the problem is that they don’t “attend” to their emotions because they aren’t “cueing” to the signals that should steer them to recognize, and be better regulated, by their emotions.
Neuman suggests that when psychopaths can be directed to focus on these cues and signals, his research shows that they can and do access a range of more normal emotions. This should and, Neuman says, does result in their coming under the better, and more appropriate, stewardship of their emotions (my italics, not his).
Now on one hand, Neuman says he’s not denying that an emotional deficit lies at the core of psychopathy. Yet it seems to me that this is exactly what he’s questioning! What he is saying in the interview, it seems to me, again and again, is that, at the heart of psychopathy is less an emotional deficit than a kind of attentional deficit, a signal-attuning deficit, the consequence of which is to detach the psychopath from connection to his underlying capacity to feel, and be better regulated in his behavior, by his emotions.
Now perhaps I’ve badly misinterpreted what I heard Neuman saying. I will leave that to other LoveFraud readers to weigh in.
Also, consistent with what I hear him saying throughout the interview, Neuman takes the rather radical stance that once a psychopath, not necessarily always, hopelessly, permanently a psychopath.
He suggests, rather, that if interventions can be developed that, for instance, can help psychopaths more effectively attune to the signals that will steer their attention to their healthier emotions, well then…NASA, we may have arrived at something of a cure, or palliative, for psychopathy.
He envisions interventions, if I understand him properly, that would effectively liberate the humanity within the psychopath, which is obscured, if not immobilized, by his attentional problems.
Because again, he is not saying that psychopaths necessarily lack emotions, or even a range of normal emotions; remember, he goes so far as to say that some psychopaths, including those with whom he’s worked, have shown evidence of an even greater (and genuine!) responsiveness to those in need than non-psychopaths. The problem, he stresses, is that psychopaths, by virtue of their overfocus on present, reward-driven interests, are basically disconnected from their emotions. At least this is what I understand him to be saying.
Neuman makes another interesting observation. Citing Hervey Cleckley, MD, he suggests that the psychopath may have an even weaker drive to acquire what he wants than the normal individual. The problem, he says, is that their “restraints” are even weaker than their “urges.” He describes this as a case of their “weaker urges breaking through even weaker restraints.”
Neuman also asserts that you can’t define psychopathy by behaviors and actions, including, he says, actions like “defrauding” people. I understand his general point—the idea that psychopathy’s essence may be more a reflection of a mentality than specific actions.
However, a pattern of certain actions, especially exploitive actions, can reflect, can reveal, the mind—and the disorder—behind it.
As I understand Neuman, let us say we have someone who is in the process of perpetrating a cold-blooded armed robbery—and not, say, the first he’s perpetrated. He’s prepared to bind, blindfold and shoot all potential witnesses to the crime. This way he can take what he came for and not get fingered, identified, in the act. Let us say he has done this before, remorselessly.
Neuman seems to suggest that, horrible as this act would be, it’s not necessarily indicative of a psychopath. Maybe he’s right.
But let’s say this individual is a Hare-diagnosed psychopath. Neuman also seems to be proposing the idea that the killer’s primary issue isn’t necessarily the absence, somewhere, of appropriate and potentially self-regulating emotion; rather, he’s so overfocused on taking care of the business at hand—robbing, and removing witnesses to the robbery—that he’s unable to attune to the kinds of signals that would lead him to recognize, and fall under the prosocial influence, of his more normal, humane emotions.
So that, if somehow, in the course of the perpetrating of his crime, you could somehow cue him to the signals that might lead him to recognize his more “humane” emotions, you might, theoretically, be able to short-circuit the robbery and coldblooded murdering of the witnesses!
Really? That’s an interesting concept, but it’s not one that strikes me as necessarily plausible. In general, as I listened to Neuman, I found that he depicted the psychopath specifically, and psychopathy in general, in terms that seemed to me much too benign; as if the psychopath, in Neuman’s view and based on his research, isn’t necessarily lacking in humanity as much as he’s lacking certain qualities that would enable his humanity to express itself in more visible, self-regulating, prosocial ways?
What was your take on the interview?
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is strictly for convenience’s sake and not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
hens says:
Blindsided _ You explain yourself expertly when describing my X..I got chill’s down my spine from your above post, it’s like you brought back the terror and dispair I felt at the time, just briefly enuff to remind me what I survived but have put space and time between then and now and realize how free I am now. thanks..
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ErinBrock says:
Oxy….
GOOD NEWS GIRL!!!!
I don’t want to be a buzz kill for ya…..but just hold off on the invitations until the fat lady sings in January!
I love…..”Older and sneakier, and meaner!!!!!~! ”
Sometimes ya just gotta knotch it up!
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ErinBrock says:
So…..while it’s quiet…..i’ll tell ya all that my Sat lunch-turn into dinner date, called last night for another get together…..
Wow….Eb broke her ‘one date wonder’…rep.
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hens says:
I dont think any of my comments are posting, but I can talk to myself anywho..Onesteppers, you have me befuzzled, you like women and gay boy’s, does this make you a homobisexual? I don’t like labels, too each his own but I am scrathin my head with this..you are weird but I have grown to love you….:)
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hens says:
erinbrock Third times a charm..got my finger’s crossed for you..keep us posted – if this ever post…
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hi EB …hmmmm. sound like you are having…um…fun?
is this the guy you met on the beach when you were jetskiing with the kids?
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ErinBrock says:
Nope…..no beach boy.
But….um….fun!
I did have a really fun time on Saturday, so it was a pleasure to hear from him again.
We’ll see…..he was really mellow and kind.
And you….how’s the job?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
well, if oxy and eb can post it ain’t gonna be quiet for long.
i have a whole lot of stuff to say…it backs up and every few days i have to let it out.
the ptsd doc said that after a few sessions the flashbacks would be triggered. actually she said after 10 sessions. seems i am an over achiever. ’cause its only been 5 and they have intensified. what i am getting this time though is both calmer and harrier – as in i am thinking as they are happening. watching and thinking, seeing what i can understand from them. that’s the good part. the not so good part is that i am triggered on some very deep level and have stuck my snoot in the fridge again. with a vengeance. i have asked her for a talk session. i need to process some stuff on that level.
i went to the beach on sunday
with a client. we have been getting to know one another for the last couple of months. we have had some really nice time togehter. i am pretty sure her x is an n, and have given her info. about it. i haven’t shared that i was spathed. i talk about my n dad a bit and also talk around being lesbian. sigh. in time. in time.
it’s interesting to see me take distance from relating the spath experience, but yet speak to it. we do live in a different world we spathed ones who fear the smear campaign, the physical threat, the death threats. there is such a different perspective. the thing that really stands out was her talking about warning someone…she asked me what i would do, and my first question was, ‘ do you feel you would be threatened physically?’ i started there. my old moral imperative to tell/ warn others is gone. i feel sad and i feel down about this. changed i am. i know that his sister warned her – i asked her: ‘did you listen?’ (I know she didn’t. she took it under advisement, but she didn’t walk away). I also asked her why she didn’t listen. i didn’t expect an answer.
she’s pretty stealth already. she made me crack up with laughter a couple of times – she’s a planner for sure.
i think i am going to buy the betrayal bond for her and for my lovely neighbour who is moving (sniff). her ex is something. dunno what. but i think it might help her. her new beau works in the prisons. a really nice guy. works with ‘behavioural problems’ with the bad guys. talking to him about the spath a couple of months ago changed something for me, in a positive way. we never know how odd we are until we open our mouths in public. here is one thing and very important – but out there with peeps who understand it’s a whole new ballgame.
i haven’t read a lot of the posts in the last few days. it would take too much energy, but i have the gist of it. i have been reflecting on the few times i have seen a similar arch of action/reaction here. sometimes people move away, or move away for a while, but I have also seen some amazing healing come out of some of these things. and it’s that that i have been relfecting on. now those who have weighed in heavily might not have this perspective…but i do, and that’s what i hope for. it also shows me how strong a place this place can be.
you are all just amazing. i wish for peace, for all of us.
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OxDrover says:
One of the things today that was really affirming today was how the attorney FINALLY VALIDATED ME! He DOES know what a psychopath is and he was “impressed” with the letters I had sent for him to read between the Pson and the Trojan Horse P. I know he thought I was a nut-job when we talked on the phone (we even talked about that) but he SEES now and validates me being in danger.
I was getting kind of frustrated with him before this, but part of the problem was me, I thought we HAD to have it in by the end of this month so he had waited til the last minute, but I had misunderstood and we have til November to get it all in place.
I think his connections are going to help too….and he seems really like a nice guy, not cocky and arrogant like a lot of land sharks.
I Know I don’t need to buy the party favors yet, but at the same time, I am kind of stoked about the way things are going and the validation I got from the attorney today!
Even if we can and do validate ourselves, it sure feels NICE when someone else does too.
Things are kind of really REALLY slow tonight–and I’m tired so will sign off for now and hit the hay! Nite all!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
mellow and kind. NICE!
the job. well, the job is a big challenge. but i think i may have turned a corner this past weekend. i did my first event and had all kinds of esteem problems. by today i am doing better with it. and put a bit of extra time in to ‘get’ something. usually at a new job i go full bore…well, right now full bore is half bore and i haven’t wanted to do more. ‘doing more’ is how i have handled anxiety in the past. right now i couldn’t possibly move fast enough, do enough to handle all the anxiety i have about the job and my reduced capacity. the job is in a sector that i am not that familiar with, and i am not doing extra research to ‘get it’…i have really need my down time to rest my mind. a lot of what i am learning is complex – technical, political, cultural, etc…and it’s overwhelming for me to know so little. but they knew that when they hired me. they wanted my skill sets, not my knowledge base about their industry. I have garnered them a WHOLE lot of press and i am interviewing well – not as i did before, different, maybe not as good, but well.
the org itself is disorganized and there is confusion on the part or the board and the director about my actual responsibilities. my job is to make money. i just did an event that wouldn’t. i told the director that. he said, do it anyway. then the board said, noooo. the director dropped me in it again today – with an international president of a major company in the sector wanting to come and do a meet and greet on short notice…the pres.’s guy called and i had to be a bit vague…then i called the director and asked if someone else should perhaps be handling ithis as it WILL NOT MAKE MONEY, and it will take me away from planning the money making things. he’s going to sleep on it. my thing is that every event i do has to go through a review process…so my next step is to take it to the sub committee i work with. the board/ director HAVE to get on the same page. i will take care of myself – my contract has VERY specific parameters, and i will focus them all on it.
so, that’s how work is.
the building is stuffy as hell, and i have started planning potlucks for the staff 
next week they get my double chocolate mocha pecan cookies that i haven’t been able to afford to bake in forevah!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – we are abused and disbelieved in context – family, firends, professionals, community, etc. so affirmation from those sources is important also.
there are so many places inside that are bruised and weary…every little bit of healing that comes our way is important.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Oxdrover;
Good news and what a big relief for you. Ever consider consulting work as an expert witness?
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ErinBrock says:
Oxy….validation from someone in power of helping us is pretty powerful and definately something to get excited about.
the alternative sucks!
So….every once in awhile…..we find someone who get’s it….and is also in a postition to help us!
HOW EXCITING IS THAT!!!!! It takes a certain burdon off our minds.
Great news……GOGIRL!!!!
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ErinBrock says:
“double chocolate mocha pecan cookies ”
Mmmmmmm!
With any new job….it takes time to find our way. Feel peeps out, and learn the boundaries.
It’s funny how our discussions change over time about the topic…..they kind of mellow…..(i found)….and we let others tell us THEIR experiences and keep asjing leadingquestions.
good for you One…..Progress is abound!
It really does change…..it does get better……and are able to find a way through!
MMMMMMmmm double chocolate mocha pecan cookies !!!!
I’m going to bed…..got a crown today…..so my mouth is sore.
It’s another step in my ‘recovery’ and taking back ME.
I broke this tooth in 2007. And spath refused to pay for a crown…..and when I went in….I couldn’t get it done because of the radiation……so……today…..got the temporary…..and I now have a whole tooth in my mouth.
So….if I ever get to kiss a prince…..I won’t cut his tongue with my broken back tooth!
(Come to think of it….if a prince stuck his tongue that far back in my mouth…..he’d deserve to be cut!!))
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sistersister says:
blindsided31, I think what you describe compatible with what Newman described, but he might use other terms.
You say your P didn’t have any love for you at all, just an agenda.
Newman’s description leaves that possibility open.
But he would probably say it in these terms: Your P couldn’t shift his attention away from his feelings of power to developing any tender feelings for you. He could only feel one “agenda” at a time, and act in service to that.
Love.
Or power.
Newman says such people are capable of normal emotions, they just don’t access them all easily — or at the same time. No emotional multitasking.
So your P might have even had some tender feelings for you at one time, and he was quite good at convincing you because he might have even believed it himself at that time. But when he switched over to feeling the power trip, he remembered no love at all. “I love you? I said I love you? When was that? You must be crazy!”
And I read further into Newman’s study — that the agenda itself may have been a result of the P’s initial feeling of something — in some people, that initial feeling is a need for power over another person — and staying with that. Getting stuck in that. Not able to connect the dots between that need and the “loving” behavior he once exhibited. No consistency. He can be one person one day, and another person the next, and not see the difference.
I think that’s the difference between a P and an ordinary a-hole. The ordinary a-hole just wants power over others, but he doesn’t have the skills to compartmentalize his feelings. He can actually be talked out of it in some way. Change his mind if he likes you enough. Feel two things at the same time: Greed and guilt.
By contrast, when dealing with someone who compartmentalizes, you’re the “crazy” one, connecting the dots, remembering something that happened and feeling upset about it at that moment.
Not him. What thing that happened? Huh?
On occasion, some of these people can even see what it was they did, and they’re shocked! Oh my God, was that me? Forgive me! (Or, more likely, feeling sad about their affliction and breaking down crying, like a woman who slugged me in the subway did. She made herself the victim! The cops were laughing; they see this all the time. Either way, it’s “all about them.”)
But then he forgets, and he does it again. Emotional ADD.
Eventually, people like this become very good at rationalizations. Weird justifications for what they did. Because none of it makes any sense, really. It’s a broken jigsaw puzzle, and it needs to be put back together to form a coherent story. They’ll jump at the first excuse that comes their way.
So you get upset, and he says, Look at what a nut job my ex is! Is it any wonder I finally hit her? And of course, I had to take the kids, the house, and the car. . . .
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sistersister says:
I’m remembering someone in my hometown right now. This guy, let’s call him Mark, was dating someone I had known in high school, let’s call her Pauline. Pauline had once told me she was engaged to Mark. Not just dating. Engaged.
So I saw Mark at a party a few years later and asked him how Pauline was. Pauline who?
I started wondering about Pauline and her fantasy “engagement.”
But recently, I saw Mark at a party again. He was there with a much younger woman, very attractive, minidress, sweet, intelligent. That whole stereotype of the midlife-crisis guy with the cute blonde on his arm. Not that there’s anything wrong with following your bliss! Go for it! But there was this strange, life-of-the-party, ain’t-I-the-greatest-guy vibe about him.
I’m starting to wonder about Mark.
By the way, Mark was in the used car business. His reputation in that wasn’t great.
More troubling, his stories are not consistent, but he’s really good at making everyone believe them, even seems to believe them himself.
Good luck to the young blonde woman. Really. She deserves better.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
For what it’s worth and what it costs you—here’s my opinion. I think the psychopaths know that there is something that we get out of sex and relationships that THEY DON’T. (From the oxytocin, bonding hormone, that they can’t process) I think that is one reason they tend to jump from partner to partner sexually is that each time they jump they think “this one might be it.”
I think they sort of want a relationship, but never seem to really bond with “that” person and they move on to another one. They first start out maybe with hopes (some of them know they are conning from the start) but even with hopes, it never materializes, is never what they “really” wanted, so they start abusing because they feel that the partner/friend/lover is the one at FAULT for not meeting their expectations and they are angry and disappointed in not having their needs met.
So if having a “feeling” can be defined as any of the above, then I’d agree that they do have…but otherwise, I’ve never seen any honest caring in any of them.
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neveragain says:
Good article about sport “heroes” getting away with violence towards women. Narcs if not worse.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.c.....tml?hpt=C2
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behind_blue_eyes says:
“OxDrover says:
I think the psychopaths know that there is something that we get out of sex and relationships that THEY DON’T. (From the oxytocin, bonding hormone, that they can’t process) I think that is one reason they tend to jump from partner to partner sexually is that each time they jump they think “this one might be it.”
I think they sort of want a relationship, but never seem to really bond with “that” person and they move on to another one. They first start out maybe with hopes (some of them know they are conning from the start) but even with hopes, it never materializes, is never what they “really” wanted, so they start abusing because they feel that the partner/friend/lover is the one at FAULT for not meeting their expectations and they are angry and disappointed in not having their needs met.
So if having a “feeling” can be defined as any of the above, then I’d agree that they do have.. but otherwise, I’ve never seen any honest caring in any of them.”
Pretty much describes my experience. Funny too that over time, as I warmed to him, he became less interested in me. I will even go as far as to say that the moment he walked out on me in the restaurant, I was very much “his.”
Normal bonding occurs when people sleep together. Thus, by sleeping with him, I became more bonded, whereas such bonding does not occur with a sociopath.
This also explains the utter complete callousness and lack of empathy he showed by dumping me after spending a night with me as my “caretaker” in the hospital.
I always knew he had “intimacy issues.” That was pretty evident from the start. Little did I know and for future reference, I red flag not to be avoided.
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OxDrover says:
BBE,
I’m not sure if there is any validity to my “theory” on this, it just is an OBSERVATION and of course “colored” by my own prejudices etc. but I think they DO somehow sense in an intimate relationship that we get “something” out of sex that they don’t. It is that complete feeling that we get from the oxytocin release that they don’t. Sure they enjoy sex (MOST OF THEM ANYWAY) but I think they sense somehow that we get “more.”
Of course they are so egocentric that they WANT whatever enjoyment they sense others might be getting. Especially if they aren’t enjoying it as “much.”
They are definitely greedy b#stards for sure! Whatever it is we have they want. What is theirs is theirs, and what is ours is theirs. LOL
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behind_blue_eyes says:
OxDrover;
Totally fits my experience, albeit limited as well. The particular “want” of my x-spath was a relationship, something impossible for him but not something he was goiving up upon.
I understand now too how what I was saying to him early on must have made him feel at that moment that he had met the right guy, gven that I was not grilling him about his past. Moreover, I went as far as to telling him that I assumed that any gay guy in his mid-30s was going to have some kind of past, and I did not care. Obviously, I meant within reason. I had know idea I was taling to somebody with a lot in his past.
You comment about wanting whatever enjoyment they sense others might be getting is also true and explains why they may use passive-agressive and covert-agressive tactics t undermine the happiness of others.
The first time he came to my place I was so happy. Within 10 minutes he destroyed my mood by dissing just about everything. Of course, I was left questioning whether I went too fast, but nothing was unreasonable.
Part of it may also be them knowing that deep-down there is something wrong with them. They know they are a fraud.
My x-spath wants somebody to love him, but he fears that if anyone knew the truth about him, they would not.
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ErinBrock says:
Sister:
I got a call a few weeks ago from a friend of spaths. He obviously ‘wanted’ some info on us…..and disguised it as wanting to ‘borrow’ a jetski…..
he was definately fishing, and I’m sure spath sent him to hijack our jetski, so spath could take it out of state and ‘hide’ it.
He started going on about hearing from spath in Mid March….(Didn’t mention his recent conversations with spath) and how well he was doing…..on his way to florida and had a young chick he was bragging about….blah, blah…..
Anyways……to enlighten him a bit about spath….and to shut his dumb ass up….
i said to him……
“tell me, since you’ve known spath…..every meeting, every conversation…….are you left with the feeling of….Gee, that guy has a great life, I wish I could be him?”
He paused…..and said…..YEAH!
I took the opportunity to fill in the ‘blanks’……
of spaths ‘great’ life.
I said…..so…you last heard from him Mid March? Did he happen to mention that he had just spent March 1-12 in jail in xx state?
SILENCE…..
Did he happen to mention that he lost everything in the divorce and his children want NOTHING to do with him and have’nt spoken to him in almost 3 year?
SILENCE……
DId he happen to mention a stalking and harassment order in place that ONE child applied for himself and the rest of us sought on our own….in place for the past 1.5 year…..and the extended order of protection that has been in place for the past almost 3 years??
SILENCE……
Did he happen to mention the fact that he’s 48 and has NOTHING to show expect his drug activities for his whole adult life?
SILENCE……
DID HE Mention that he’s facing 15 years in prison for felony drug charges?
SILENCE……
DID HE?
spath friend said ……..um…..no….he never mentioned any of that…..
I said…..well……how great of a life does he REALLY have?
Knowing this…..are you still left with….Gee, I want his life????
It’s all a portrayal…..of who he wants to be…..but not work for it. It’s all lies and manipulations and you’ve been DUPED!
Don’t call me again!!!
Click!
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OxDrover says:
Gosh, EB, you are soooo cynical!!! What on earth would make you think the X’s life suks canal water? Hee hee bawhahaha And hanging up on his bud for calling and telling you what a great life X has…what a cute young chick he has and so on? I just don’t understand why you think a couple of weeks and a felony drug charge or two would be such a downer. I mean really, it’s nothing! Not when you have such a GREAT life! bawhahahaha
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sistersister says:
I’m not sure what ErinBrock’s story about the phone call has to do with what I said, but it’s a great story. Unless it’s to show me that part of the trick of living a double life is indeed compartmentalization. This guy who called was baffled!
OxDrover says: “So if having a “feeling” can be defined as any of the above, then I’d agree that they do have…but otherwise, I’ve never seen any honest caring in any of them.” And they can sense when WE feel something they don’t, like sexual closeness.
IF we were taken in by that show of “feelings,” it must have seemed very genuine (to us) at the time. (Otherwise, we’re in the wrong support group — the one for people who fall for obviously fake love is down the hall: “Cheesy Pick-Up Lines Victims Anonymous.”)
The only way we know that “feelings” act wasn’t real is that the person acted differently later.
Exactly Newman’s point: The psychopath can shape-shift like that, actually being genuine in his feelings of love at one moment, and being someone else entirely later.
He doesn’t leave out the possibility that some people can fake feelings — that is, act loving while scheming underneath it all. Heck, I think I could manage that if I needed to. But the results of his research show that people already diagnosed as psychopaths, by the Hare scale, in prison, consistently can’t multitask like that. They feel or think one thing now, and another thing later.
Either way, it would look like the same thing to the victim, right? He seemed so loving, and then I found out he just wanted to con me.
The part of this his theory doesn’t explain, still puzzling to anyone who’s dealt with a psychopath, is that dominant “agenda.” Feelings may come and go, but they keep going back to that agenda, their purpose for being there — to rip you off in some way. It’s like they suddenly set aside the feelings because they’ve got a job to do. You’re not going to see those feelings overtake the agenda. They’ll even use the loving history they’ve built with you to further the agenda.
Maybe the agenda is the one consistent part of this person, the one thing that holds them together as an identity. They can’t let go of it.
It’s that agenda that is inexcusable. Where did they learn that it was OK to rape or steal, even if they have no “feelings” when they’re doing it? When did they set that as a mission in life?
Newman’s answer seems to be that, while they don’t have a tremendous drive to succeed in a life of crime, they don’t have any inhibitions, either. See it, take it. Simple as that. The door is unlocked; walk in — my sister. Men are stupid that way; take advantage of them — Susan. I need $10K to start a business; there’s my kind-hearted sister-in-law — my uncle. Easy pickin’s.
I’m guessing they get it from whatever the dominant theme was in their family. No ability to resist it, without an i.d. of their own. That’s why my uncle steals but doesn’t lie about other people, but my sister lies about other people but would never steal. Different rewards or goals, same illness.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
One of the the many things my x-spath and I had in common was a bipolar friend in the hospital. Thus one day he was off to visit his friend and me off to visit mine.
My x-spath seemed genuinely concerned about his friend. He even said in an email “my heart pains to see him like this…”
He constantly asked about my bipolar friend and the one friend of mine he met. To be honest, I really did not show any such to the friends of his I met…
Yet, a couple weeks later quite suddenly drops me while I was facing the single most difficult moment in my life, very sick while facing the strong possibility of being HIV+.
IMHO, only a sociopath could or would do such a thing. Thankfully, I did find a resource that does truly understand. There are few out there.
This is why Neuman’s views are important. Sociopaths can warm themselves in the sun enough so as to hide their true cold-blooded nature. However, it is always there if you are savy enough to correctly read the warning signs.
Again, mine was, among others, “jeez this guy has intimacy issues…” That should have been it for me.
To this day I wonder what might have happened had I not become sick and he did not become my “caretaker.” Would I, after a couple more dates, have grown tired of his coldness? Would I have finally woken up to all the red flags?
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
In some ways they are complex and different, in others, they are simple and so much alike. Yet, with all these differences, there is an underlying THEME and that is that they have no conscience, are totally self centered, do not seem to have a real grasp that others have any rights, or that others should be treated with consideration. They just don’t get the concept. CONTROL of others is their agenda. Self Gratification is the reward. (whatever the prize is–money, position, sex, status, sowing discord just to watch it unroll its ugly self)
Dr. Robert Hare said that they “know the words, but don’t get the music.” So trying to understand how a tone deaf person would try to sing, would even want to sing, or could even understand the concepts of tone…or how a person blind from birth could understand or appreciate colors—is almost impossible for us who live in a colorful world with music.
Their comprehension of emotions and relationships I think is like that blind person’s concept of colors—the blind person may be able to name the colors of the rainbow, or even say “an apple is red” but still they don’t really have a grasp of what red is, much less the shadings of red. Just the WORDS but not the accompanying music or appreciation. (mixing metaphors there a bit)
Studies have indicated that oxytocin (the bonding hormone) which is released during child birth, nursing a child, or sex to name a few times, is not “normally” processed in the psychopath’s brain which apparently has fewer receptors for this hormone than normal people. Without this hormone being utilized animals will abandon their young or fail to recognize the baby is theirs. There is no reason to think that most humans are any less subject to the response to the chemical than any other mammal. However, the “bonding” that takes place when the chemical is released with normal people does not happen with psychopaths. There may be some qualitative differences in “psychopaths” where there might be some short term bonds in some Ps, but over all, the definition of Ps is that they don’t “bond” normally with others, but see others more as prey or for their own use. If any of that makes any sense to anyone but me. LOL
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sistersister says:
I think they do have consciences, can get out of themselves, and do grasp that others have rights. Just not all the time.
That’s what makes them so confusing, and why we have this misconception that they’re that way, all the way.
When they’re that way, they’re all the way.
They bond normally with others, and then they don’t. They see all the rainbow’s colors, and then they don’t.
If I agree with you that Ps are always in their P skin, then all the Ps I have reported on this site are not Ps.
And I know definitely that they are Ps. They could take you apart limb-to-limb and not feel a thing. And yet, at other times, and with other emotions, they feel.
Which emotions they feel and which they are able to shut off probably varies by the individual.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
I think we will have to disagree on whether or not they have a conscience. I think the LACK OF A CONSCIENCE is a defining factor of psychopathy.
There are people who are HIGH IN P TRAITS who would not qualify as a “diagnosable psychopath” and yet they are NOT the kind of people you would want as a family member, spouse or friend. They are still TOXIC though not “really” a psychopath.
I think that many of us tend to label TOXIC people as “psychopaths” and they really aren’t but they may have some vestige of a conscience or be able at least on a minimal level to bond. That is one of the dangers of “labeling” people as anything.
When is someone black? Is Barack Obama black or white? He has a parent that is white and one that is black, so why is he black instead of Mixed race, or not half and half? See what I mean? Labels never entirely fit or describe anyone. So someone who is HIGH IN PSYCHOPATHIC TRAITS but not really a true “card carrying” psychopath in all dimensions who is labeled a “p” may not truly be representive of the label.
The PCL-R I think is more diagnosic and reliable in predicting the recidivism of criminals, or the labeling of criminal and violent psychopaths than of the ones on the street…but at the same time, psychopaths on the street and the criminal ones do have a lot of traits in common.
Also there is a continuum of the depth of the condition. Sort of like “Fat”—there is a great variety of people considered “fat” vs normal weight. First what is “normal” and what is “fat?” Is a 1 pound over DESIRED weight a definitive point over normal? How about a person who is 400 pounds over normal? Where is the cut off point. Of course it is arbitrary as are all “definitions” of this sort and one click left or right of this point doesn’t make much difference, but many clicks do.
Many of the jerks and toxic people that I talk about as “psychopaths” are probably not “qualified” as REAL psychopaths, but they come close and have a high number of traits of psychopaths…but yet I “loosely label” them along with the REAL card carrying dangerous psychopaths like my P-son the killer as “psycho0paths.”
Here or in our private lives we can “label” someone whatever we want to label them or think about them—and as long as we don’t identify them illegally or slander them we can do as we please. However a clinical diagnosis is a different matter and should be considered more carefully and use a definitive set of criteria to determine who is what.
The bottom line is though, that no matter what is the agreed upon definition, there will be examples of ones who are VERY close to it…and in the end, in our REAL LIVES that diagnosis or label doesn’t matter—”TOXIC PERSON” IS CLOSE ENOUGH OF A LABEL TO ADVISE US TO GET AWAY FROM THEM!
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sistersister says:
I’m really not talking about the same thing you are at all, Ox. A totally different topic: What CAUSES the “lack of conscience”? And does it kick in 100% of the time, or some other percentage?
You’re right, labels don’t get close to the truth, which is what I’ve been trying to say all along. The truth is a jumble of categories, degrees, and circumstances.
I do actually believe my Ps lack conscience. The just don’t lack it all the time. And they don’t connect the dots from one state to the other, which to me is even more creepy.
I wonder why that’s so hard to understand, or seems to mean I’m excusing or minimizing the behaviors of psychopaths or how confusing they are.
Because I’ve said over and over, it makes them less easy to deal with, not more.
I actually was arguing there was a continuum, before, repeatedly — and most people here disagreed with me then. Because my sister isn’t capable of doing these things you describe.
Now I argue there is NO continuum. No difference of degree. A person is either paying attention to an emotion or not. My sister is capable of doing other things than what you describe, but still to an extreme degree. There is no moderate level of that.
And yet I hear the same objection: I’m excusing Ps again.
I think the bottom line is, we’re looking for validation here, not full understanding of what happened. We want someone to say, yes, that P you describe was really horrible. He had no conscience. At all. You were right in leaving him. You noticed something real. And so did I.
The agenda is the mystery part, still. Where does that come from?
I argued that it is the same thing Newman describes about hanging onto emotions, not being able to switch and/or multitask. Ps find an agenda and hang on. The first agendas that occur to all people are the narcissistic ones. We just get a better idea, eventually.
I think Newman’s research should be added to the diagnostic criteria, to better smoke out Ps before they do some damage. And then maybe people like me wouldn’t be out there wondering, “Is she really a P?” before she strikes again. If we notice that emotional ADD, it’s time to take cover!
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OxDrover says:
Sister, I think describing them in some ways is like describing the “color green” (or red or blue) we can give the scientific wave lengths that make the color send a signal to the brain that we interpret as “blue”—and even designate the chemical reaction in the brain, but is that really a DESCRIPTION of “blue”? How many blues are there? LOL
I think it is the same as describing the psychopaths, there is a similarity between them, and yet there are so many different SHADES of them. Plus, they FAKE a lot of “emotions” and really don’t “feel” them (we think!) but how can we be sure?
Actually, at this point in research there isn’t quite enough objective data to totally say for sure “this is that, and that is this” so a lot of what we think is pure conjecture, observation, and opinion—I would love to be around in 100 years when this thing is better understood.
The TAKE HOME LESSON is that we cannot “deal with” these people and must for self protection get away from them. So, ultimately what we call them isn’t as important as being able to recognize the signs that they are TOXIC–manipulative behavior, pathological liar, lack of apparent care for the damage they do, apparent glee at causing damage, high in anger, low in impulse control, violence toward others, emotional violence toward others, lack of responsiblity, and so on. Those things we can recognize in some degree in a psychopath or other toxic personality.
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kim frederick says:
Sistersister, I’m with you. It is confusing, and I agree that their lack of consistancy in their P behaviors does make it harder to deal with. If someone IS AN ASS 100% of the time we probably would have gotten out a lot faster…what do you do with the rule following behavior and the supposed sincerity we see once in a blue moon?
My X is/was as addict who displayed most if not all the points on the check list, but there were times I knew he didn’t, so was he or wasn’t he?
But, they are excellant actors, so maybe they just act like they have a conscience.
There are a wealth of disorders, too, that might impair someone emotionally, but not make them absolute P’s…the certifiable ones.
In my opinion a real P has no conscience, just mimics one. To carry on a little farthar with Oxys analogy, they are color blind,but will try to convinse you they aren’t by learning that the red stop light is on the top, and the green go light is on the bottom…they don’t really see the color but have taught themselves the “tricks” so they
can dupe people into thinking they can.
I have seen one falter momentarily, put her face down into her arms, and try to figure out what look she should have on her face, when she brought it back up. Creepy.
The point is though, that trying to figure it out, or them out is futile…I am all for the phylosophy that it doesn’t matter, as long as I accept that they are toxic, and any attempt I make to understand them, will probably be used against me.
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sistersister says:
As it happens, I have just refused to participate in an Internet conversation with someone who is doing precisely what Newman describes: Holding onto an imperssion and not letting go. And then, using that impression against another person in a blatant power play.
He says I insulted him with a joking remark — according to HIS rules, it overstepped a boundary. This is really hilarious, because he says I said he could be played in the movies by a corpse! I said he could be played in a movies by an actor who unfortunately is already dead. And furthermore, he doesn’t like that this actor was an atheist. (??!)
I can’t even remember who I suggested! And I made no reference to the actor’s atheism or even knew about it.
I’ve been complimenting him all week on some work he’s doing. My first mistake — he was on the praise trajectory, and I interrupted it with a remark that was only just one inch short of complete and utter adoration.
Oh, I agree — insult is in the eye of the beholder. What people heard is more important than what you think you said.
But not in this case.
He took a blatantly errant impression of what I said — comically so — and stuck with it. Now I owe him an apology. I don’t think so. He owes me one, for being a prick.
I’m just not responding. To FOUR harassing e-mails.
This is what I mean by “early warning.”
And not just an ordinary a-hole. A really deluded one, really un-self-aware of what he just did. So much so, that arguing with him would just dig me deeper into the mire, as it has before.
I’m going to wait and see if he forgets this perceived slight, eventually. Just an experiment . . .
Or, if he persists for a couple of weeks, or brings this up months later, what do you think? I should probably just suggest more dead actors to play him.
And I’m not indulging any more Ps like this.
Instead, I’m considering annoying the hell out of them, when I figure out where the panic button on these robots are. They’re so utterly predictable, when you get the hang of it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
While I definitely understand your desire to “annoy the hell out of them”—oh, gosh, do I ever understand that desire! LOL At the same time I think in the end we are much better off just going NC with these creatures, walking away and pretending they don’t exist. Giving them the POTTED PLANT treatment if you will. Totally ignoring them. Totally NO communication. It I think is not worth the trouble and problems that just ahving any communication with them will give US. I think it is a bit like poking a caged animal with a stick just to see them roar. Even if they can’t get out of the cage and strike back, we probably have better things to do with our times, things that would benefit us more. LOL But I definitely understand the DESIRE to annoy them (or worse!)
ps BTW I am “preaching” at myself here as well as anyone else reading this because the temptation to annoy them or seek revenge or retrobution seems to creep back in if I do not continually monitor these desires.
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sistersister says:
No, Oxy, using this information — actually “objective research,” as in, those pigs with “cat” written on them — could lead to “dealing with” these people. Not reforming, just dealing.
Newman found that they can see clearly. They can see that the color green is green, not blue. They just keep seeing green long after the field has shifted to blue, and if their agenda shows up in the field, they’ll drop everything to follow that.
You’re right that you can’t be sure of any of these emotions — whether they’re real or fake. Nothing in Newman’s research suggests otherwise.
I got your take home lesson a long time ago, Oxy. It’s not possible to reform such a person. Nobody’s talking about going back and fixing it.
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sistersister says:
It isn’t retribution I’m seeking. It’s understanding. Using this guy like a little object in my experiment. And control.
We can’t go NC with everyone in our lives. We work for P bosses and have projects that depend on someone’s cooperation for now. I need him not to sabotage my project. I need to be in control here, because there’s something at stake.
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kim frederick says:
I personally feel like this in response to the interview:
Yeah, so?
I don’t give a hoot about WHY they don’t empathize, (unless they can fix them now) because it’s still a matter of absolute selfishness. They are still always a product of their own drives toward their own desires, needs an d fulfillment. All I need to know.
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sistersister says:
I can see that you are preaching at yourself, Oxy. That’s OK. We see in others’ problems what we most need to learn.
But maybe there’s another lesson here, too.
Not to go back to that person and give in to all those temptations, but to gain clarity on why things may have happened in the particular way they did.
You can still win. You can learn to recognize signs earlier. As soon as you see someone getting stuck in an emotional pattern, no matter how innocent, you can see that it might not lead somewhere good.
After all, it’s just as difficult to detect a lack of conscience as whether an emotion is “real” or not. Newman has presented us with a surrogate marker to look for, instead of that.
If I learned that all Ps wore red boots, I would learn to avoid people who wear red boots. It wouldn’t seem related, to me, but if a researcher finds it’s related, I’ll at least keep an eye out for it.
I knew for a couple of years that this guy who’s harassing me by e-mail now had a sudden, unpredictable problem, turning on people. It didn’t make me any less likely to work with him, because he’s done some competent research that I depend on. What’s new is that his problem is now more predictable to me. I’m the one in control here.
As you said, there some people who are just toxic, not serial killers. We don’t always have the option of running away from such people. But my project partner is most certainly a P, if identified by this holding-on emotional pattern.
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sistersister says:
It’s still just as true, Kim. Nothing in Newman’s research negated that.
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sistersister says:
And yes, whatever you try to argue with them, will be used against you. Absolutely. The worst possible place to go with such a person is rational argument.
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kim frederick says:
Absolutely.
I am in agreement that it’s interesting, and I will be watching for furthar findings, and perhaps having hope for a “cure, but I’m satisfied, on a personal level, to just know that there’s no hope for me in a relationship with them, at this time. Zip, Zero, Nada.
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sistersister says:
Hey Kim, now maybe you have an early warning sign.
When you notice that somebody keeps going on an impression long after you’ve told them again and again that it’s not the right one, it could be a danger sign.
This is normal in some cases — Oxy and I seem to have talked past each other here, and that’s kind of normal on blogs or heavily charged emotional situations — but I’d keep checking things out if I notice it happening and then that person does something irresponsible. Especially if we already agreed it was the one thing they weren’t going to do.
Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!
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OxDrover says:
Sister and Kim,
I agree that we have to work with and associate with in the “real world” Ps and other toxic individuals…I’ve worked with, for and had working for me such cases. Some real “snakes in suits,” to hijack the name of Bob Hare’s book by that name, what I meant and didn’t clearly state in “run from them” is that we don’t seek an INTIMATE relationship (marriage, deep friendship etc) with these jerks/Ps—and that if we MUST associate with them we do NOT TRUST them or give them an open opportunity to stab us in the back.
I’ve been in business deals with these people (real psychopaths) and got skinned like a jack rabbit financially and emotionally both because I considered the person trustworthy and a friend as well as business partner. (Once I was even warned by someone I respected!) Didn’t listen….of course! Went on to get REALLY skinned!
I have worked in jobs where I discovered too late my boss was a psychopath, or my great boss left and was replaced by a psychopath (both REAL and just high in traits) in one case after nearly a year of being in denial Ii voluntarily left when I saw it would not get better and I ddn’t want to endure the continual stress of dealing with it. In another case, the psychopathic new boss DESTROYED the entire program I was involved in (A college student health service) and I would have lost my insurance and benefits with “part time” employment. So I left and actually sought and found “weekend option” (24 hours a week in 2 12 hour days) with full benefits and pay for the part time work. It turned out to be a blessing from God as a few months later My beloved step dad was diagnosed with cancer and I was available to go through his medical care with him as a support for him. It gave us some wonderful quality time together before his death.
I also got to spend the last 18 months of my marriage home with my husband 5 days a week and that was wonderful too. So actually this “tragedy” (so viewed at the time because I loved my work at the college) turned out to be a “blessing in disguise.”
In fact, if you look at the relationship with the psychopaths, there is usually, if not always, a lesson to be learned that, though costly to get, is or can be very beneficial to us!
One of the things I have seen as I have gone through life is that spiritual/mental/emotional “exercise” and “problem solving” while it might be painful is for the soul of the person like exercise for the muscles is to the body! It strengthens us.
People who have never had a problem to solve, a grief to over come, or a disappointment to endure doesn’t build the strength that overcoming those challenges can IMHO.
Kim, I know your story a bit more than Sister’s, and having known you longer, have been able to SEE some BIG changes from when you first came here. If you compared the early writings and postings here to the ones you do now and have for the past while, one would not think they were by the same person. You have grown, calmed down, found some peace, etc. that you didn’t have when you first came here. God alone knows that is also SO true for me.
I agree too with you Sister that learning the red flags or anything that can indicate DANGER! Is paramount to learning about them. Learning to honor our “gut instincts” and validate ourselves, to set boundaries and the other things many of us have done, or not done, which allowed them to prey on us. In some cases that may mean almost literally “re-parenting” ourselves because we didn’t get the nurturing and love we needed as children because our early environment was so dysfunctional and we didn’t know it was not “normal.”
There are so many aspects I think it is like the layers of a huge onion, and must be peeled a layer at a time. IT seems to me that as soon as I get one problem peeled back and “solved” there is another deeper one to deal with, but working on the healing during the chaos of being “close” to them, and being emotionally/mentally/spiritually and even physically distraught makes it almost impossible to deal with them in such a way like Sister said, and “remain in control” of it rather than give them the control they want.
I am very fortunate that I was able to retire instead of stay in the high stress job that I literally could not safely function in due to the short term memory problems and other symptoms of PTSD after the crash. If I had been forced to also work with these high stress and highly dysfunctional people even only 2 days a week and take patient’s lives in my hands I don’t know what would have happened…but it would NOT have been pretty I am sure! I admire you Sister that you are able to function in the work-a-day world even in dealing with toxic individuals and keeping your head calm and cool.
Even after much progress and a significant amount of healing time, I am still different than before the plane crash that killed my husband. Long term and high intensity stress does a number on our brains and bodies. Coming to terms with those loses in addition to others is also a part of the ongoing process. How fast and how well we recover depends I think on a lot of different aspects of our make ups both intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, physically, mentally, support network strength, age, general health, financial status, other life stressors etc.
Love Fraud has been a great support network for me and both reading and blogging here has focused my resources on healing myself and encouraging others to heal as well.
Exploring the why they are what they are as well as defining what they are is interesting, helpful and no longer holds the emotional triggers for me that it once did. Now it is more an intellectual exploration than an emotional one. Just like we might talk about spiders scientifically, but if we had once been bitten by a poison one and spent months in intensive care, in fear of our lives, there might have been a long period in there where we couldn’t have even SAID THE WORD SPIDER without being triggered into a panic state! LOL
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sistersister says:
Eloquently and compassionately stated, Oxy. You have truly come a long way, I gather.
LOL! I keep my head calm and cool? Tell that to my boss at work, will you? I have a “reputation” here at work for being a “difficult person.” Know why? I hang up the phone when any of the socios here go really batshit, and I’ve been disciplined for it.
Life is too short. Just hang up.
But well, I used to be a nice person. I tell people I arrived in this city on a turnip truck — but that was a long time ago.
Another tip has helped me over the years. It’s not enough to go NC on someone in the real world. It has to happen inside yourself, too. Evict the bastards. I find there’s nothing to “heal” from if I no longer recognize it as real. I’M real. The game is all make-believe.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
]
No one every accused me of being ELOQUENT before! Watch out you might ruin my reputation of being a mouthy old bat!@ LOL
Oh, yes I have come a A LONG WAY BABY, from being so stressed out I couldn’t function at all after the crash of the plane my husband was in, burning him to death, and severely burning my son and 2 friends…then my stepfather was ill with terminal cancer, my egg donor had surgery that went bad, my P-son sent a former cell mate of his to murder me, instead when son D and I got on to the fact this man was a 3x convicted pedophile and career criminal and realized what his purpose was (to kill me to start with and then probably one at a time the rest of the family except son P) and when my son D and I couldn’t get anyone else in the family to believe us we ran for our lives! Without me to stalk, the Trojan Horse psychopath turned on my son C, started an affair with C’s wife, the two of them got my egg donor to cancel my Power of attorney (I’m her only child) and make C and his wife POA, and so the P-DIL and the TH-P stole serious money from my egg donor, then decided to kill my son C (DIL:’s husband) and make it look like “self defense” after he had discovered their affair! They got arrrested when son C got to 911 before they could pull it off and sent to jail/prison and now on parole/probation and out of our lives. However, P son is up for parole in January next year so Have been working on a package of information to submit to parole board to hopefully persuade them to keep him in.
Plus, my immune system took a nose dive and I’ve had 4 SERIOUS life threatening infections, several hospitalizations and surgeries connected to the infections—and I could go on, but you get the idea. My “stress score” on the Holmes and Rae scale (300 is Max-out) over a 3 year period has been in the neighborhood of like 3-5000 over the last 6 years and continual. So INSANITY is the word! NON FUNCTIONAL is the word. Plus, son D was in the plane crash and burned and he also has PTSD…add in forced retirement due to snort term memory loss, and the financial hit that made….and only the last two years have I had even a couple of weeks that were not CHAOTIC to an insane level. (much of it self induced by my inabiloity to set reasonable and appropriate boundaries with those closest to me who were dysfunctional at the least…I am NC with my egg donor and I realize she never earned the title “mother” so I took it back.
Believe it or not, I have been through the meat grinder, but you know something, I am the STRONGER for it! Not that my “pain” was any “greater” than anyonoe else’s here. Read Dr. Vicktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” which was written abouthis emotional experiences during and after his incarceration in Nazi prison camps and his observations of others there who like him, lost everything…some like him healed and grew from it, others died from it, gave up, and some became bitter and angry and hostile…why are the same conditions getting different responses in the different people? I don’t know the answer to that and he doesn’t either, but ONE spectacular thing stood out.
PAIN ACTS LIKE A GAS, IT EXPANDS TO TOTALLY FILL THE CONTAINER IT IS IN, OR COMPRESSES AS NEEDED. So pain is TOTALLY FILLING whether it is little or much so that each of us experiences TOTAL PAIN. I had felt bad about reading his book about the terrible losses he had suffered (everything but his life and sight) and mine were nothing in comparison, but reading the part about pain is like a gas, made me realize that I did not have to feel guilty for perceiving my pain as total regardless of whether or not it was as “big” as his losses or not. If that makes any sense.
So on the pain department we are ALL EQUAL, whether we “lost much or little” in terms of finances, physical injuries etc. We are all devastated completely.
My blogging and article writing has been more to myself than to others, but it pleases me if others can use my writing to help themselves or to comfort themselves in their pain. I no longer feel “superior” to others that I have handled myself better than someone else, because I realized that though Imight not have stayed or repeatedly gone back to a man who beat me as some have done, I GAVE MY VIOLENT SON CHANCE AFTER CHANCE. So how was I superior to these women? NOT!!!
I still have to continually work on myself as “recovery’ with this past victim-hood and enabling I think requires continual reinforcement like AA does for drunks. If we quit growing we start to decay and fall back into the web of the predators around us. Like if you tghrow a ball into the air, it goes up and up and then STOPS for a microsecond, then when it stops IT STARTS TO FALL. So we have to keep going up and up! Never let ourselves stop in our progress to reinforce our new lessons.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Oxdrover;
You will find this interesting:
Anti-inflammatory and immunomodulation
Recent studies show pro-inflammatory cytokine processes take place during clinical depression, mania and bipolar disorder, and it is possible that symptoms of these conditions are attenuated by the pharmacological effect of antidepressants on the immune system.[60][61][62][63][64]
Studies also show that the chronic secretion of stress hormones as a result of disease, including somatic infections or autoimmune syndromes, may reduce the effect of neurotransmitters or other receptors in the brain by cell-mediated pro-inflammatory pathways, thereby leading to the dysregulation of neurohormones.[63] SSRIs, SNRIs and tricyclic antidepressants acting on serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine receptors have been shown to be immunomodulatory and anti-inflammatory against pro-inflammatory cytokine processes, specifically on the regulation of Interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) and Interleukin-10 (IL-10), as well as TNF-alpha and Interleukin-6 (IL-6). Antidepressants have also been shown to suppress TH1 upregulation.[65][66][67][68][69]
Antidepressants, specifically TCAs and SNRIs (or SSRI-NRI combinations), have also shown analgesic properties.[70][71]
These studies warrant investigation for antidepressants for use in both psychiatric and non-psychiatric illness and that a psycho-neuroimmunological approach may be required for optimal pharmacotherapy.[72] Future antidepressants may be made to specifically target the immune system by either blocking the actions of pro-inflammatory cytokines or increasing the production of anti-inflammatory cytokines.[73]
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behind_blue_eyes says:
But this even more:
Many psychologists believe that antidepressants hurt the ability to love or experience love. Many users of antidepressants have also reported that their ability to love was reduced by antidepressants.
Antidepressant drugs may also suppress the basic human emotions of love and romance. “There’s every reason to think SSRIs blunt your ability to fall and stay in love,” said Helen Fisher, a Rutgers University biological anthropologist who has pioneered the modern science of love. SSRI antidepressants work by boosting circulating levels of serotonin, a mood-regulating neurotransmitter that also inhibits desire. The drugs also decrease dopamine, a neurotransmitter involved in a wide range of cognitive and behavioral processes, among them desire and arousal. The new research suggests that dopamine may also play a part in romance. During sex, a cocktail of hormones is released that appears to play important roles in fostering romantic attachment within the brain. Take away sex, and romantic love can dwindle. But this is just part of the problem, say Fisher and University of Virginia psychiatrist James Thomson. When couples have just fallen in love, the mere sight of the other causes a jump in dopamine-related brain activity. If they manage to stay in love, with the early flush giving way to long-term affection, those brain patterns stay active. Reduced dopamine levels, however, are an inevitable effect of SSRIs. Reduce dopamine, say Fisher and Thomson, and the possibility of love itself is reduced.[121]
Singles using antidepressants may have a harder time meeting people, because their natural sexual response is dampened. Some researchers believe desire was designed to help people select mates who are genetically suited to them. The spark that ignites on meeting someone new is telling you something: This might be your match. When you miss those signals, your odds of finding an appropriate mate decrease.[122]
There are few studies on the effects of antidepressants on aspects of love beyond libido and sexual performance. But in an intriguing experiment, one Canadian psychologist, Maryanne Fisher (no relation to Helen), reported evidence in a small 2004 study of what she termed “courtship blunting” in women taking antidepressants.
Asked to rate the attractiveness of men’s faces, women taking the drugs rated the men more negatively, and breezed through the pictures faster than women not on antidepressants.[123]
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behind_blue_eyes says:
“Closely related to sexual side effects is the phenomenon of emotional blunting, or mood anesthesia. Many users of SSRIs complain of apathy, lack of motivation, emotional numbness, feelings of detachment, and indifference to surroundings. They may describe this as a feeling of “not caring about anything anymore.”
Describes my x-spath to a T.
According to one source, Post-SSRI sexual dysfunction (PSSD) is caused by the previous use of SSRI antidepressants. While apparently uncommon, it can last for months, years, or sometimes indefinitely after the discontinuation of SSRIs.
I wonder if long-term side effects may persist regarding emotional blunting
Perhaps another red flag for dating should be the use of SSRIs, even in the past…
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Hopeforjoy says:
Behind blue eyes,
You have stated some interesting facts, I love the fact that you love information so much. I don’t understand all of the postings about SSRI’s but I do get that these mood stabilizers could cause emotional numbness.
My bi-polar sister did alot of fun things when she was in her manic states, living life in vivid color. Now that she is on medication, her moods have stabilized and her behavior is way more even keel. I miss her and some of the emotions she had before, but I don’t miss the suicide attempts, paranoia, prostitution, random trips overseas, bulimia, and all that comes with this disorder. So these drugs do serve their purpose in stabilizing emotions and I recognize her blunted emotions now, and I’m thankful.
I eat up all the information on why these spaths do what they do, many of them have the same MO. All the answers we find do help us to find a place of healing, but we may never know why they did what they did. We simply can’t follow their distorted thinking because we have healthy brains. Don’t get me wrong, there is always room for improvement but they do not get that fact. The spaths think they are the epitome of perfection. Ha Ha Ha. More like the epitome of imperfection.
Hope you are out riding that bike and taking care of your health! The spaths have affected us profoundly but they just don’t get it, so the jokes on them, not us!!! We win after all!
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OxDrover says:
BBE,
I think you are jumping off on to something here that is not so easily proven “causal” as far as SSRIs are concerned. First, different SSRIs do different things to the dopamine and other hormones. So sometimes one SSRI may help a person and another may not help.
Also, there are other kinds of problems such as people who are victims may have depression prior to the abuse, or they may be bi-polar, have anxiety, etc. etc. So each individual case should be assessed and followed by a PSYCHIATRIST rather than just a general medical professional in my opinion. Even with several years of training in psychoactive medications, their effects and side effects, I only treated complex cases in close collaboration with a psychiatrist, and made sure that my patients were also involved with a psychotherapist as well.
I have taken SSRIs personally for over 6 years in varying doses from extremely high doses to now a much reduced moderate dose of one of the older SSRIs with very good effects. I am neither unable to fall in love or emotionally blunted in any way. I AM gaining some improved control over my emotions and my ability to cope, but it isn’t blunting, it is GROWTH!
I disagree entirely with your “red flag” of not dating anyone who has ever or currently takes SSRIs. That might very well (taking SSRIs) be an indication of depression, but I don’t think even depression should be a “deal killer” especially if the person was adequately treated and functioning well.
There are some mental illnesses that I would probably not date someone if I knew they had them, even if they were controlled pretty well, I also would not start to date someone who had had a previous problem with drugs, alcohol, wife beating, gross and repeated infidelities in a past marriage, many marriages, a stretch in prison, no education, not really smart, a history of multiple bankruptcies, multiple strokes, diabetes that the person refused to treat.
I would date someone who had broken their spine in a diving accident when they were 15 and is in a wheel chair, wouldn’t bother me a bit, I would date someone who didn’t have a lot of money, but managed what he had well. I would date someone who had depression or anxiety but who was treating it and it was under reasonable control.
You can find opinions on the internet about everything in the world and all the “flying saucers” and so on by folks with lots of PhDs after their names, and look at “Doctor” Sam Vaknin, with his phony degree! Writing about “Malignant Narcissists” writing from a first person impression.
Anyway, no I don’t agree with that woman’s opinion, and I don’t know what her credentials are either. But one thing I DO know is that even some of the “highest level” of the researchers on psychopathy wouldn’t know a psychopath unless it had on a PRISON UNIFORM when they saw it. Dr. X and I have observed that one FIRST HAND. I actually have more confidence in some of the bloggers here on LF to “spot one” in the WILD than some of the best known researchers.
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behind_blue_eyes says:
Oxdrover;
Please take no offence, a lot was jsut speculation on my part. Remember too, I am on an antidepressant.
When I said making such use a “red flag” I mean as part of evaluating the whole person. Keep in mind too I am very suspecious of SSRI, particularly from the male perspective. I also realize they are quite effective in many without serious side effects.
PS I am in an AA and I would not date myself right now, as I need 3 more months for one year of sobriety…
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