Our Family Wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
PDF The most heartbreaking dramas that sociopaths create are those that involve children. Many sociopathic parents stand up in court proclaiming that they “only want what is best for the children.” They’re lying. What they really want is to use the children as clubs to beat their ex-partners into submission.
There is no such thing as a simple phone call to find out what little Johnny needs to bring to soccer practice. Every phone call or e-mail is an opportunity for the sociopath to manipulate, denigrate and infuriate the ex, through lies, innuendo and misinformation. For the parent trying to protect the children, it’s exhausting.
A few months ago, Lovefraud published a letter from “Penny,” who is in this situation. She wrote her Tips for co-parenting with a sociopath. One of Penny’s recommendations was that parents request that all communications with their former partners go through Our Family Wizard.
Our Family Wizard
Our Family Wizard is a website designed to facilitate communications between separated or divorced parents in relation to their children. It promotes “cooperative parenting:”
For the first time ever, parents can coordinate shared custody and joint custody parenting time schedules, health records, immunization histories, expense sharing, school information, virtual document storage and much more on a website specifically designed to deal with the issues that arise in co-parenting situation.
Our website is committed to removing conflict and improving the lives of children. In fact, judges in at least 35 states order families to utilize the site in contested cases to reduce conflict.
The Our Family Wizard website is a great tool for managing difficult parenting relationships. The website provides excellent documentation to help reduce conflict that may arise from ineffective communication. Should you need to return to court, all pages are printable and most come with a preformatted print option with all the necessary data you will need to show that you have met your parenting obligations.
The service costs $99 per year per parent. “This fee is worth it,” Penny wrote. “I know this because the judge hearing my case ordered that communication between my ex and I take place solely on the Our Family Wizard website … The judge also ordered that no verbal communication is to take place between the parties facilitating the exchange of my child.”
No creative language
Approximately 10,000 families—20,000 parents—use Our Family Wizard, according to Jainarain Kissoon, CEO. One reason why it helps in high-conflict situations, Kissoon says, is because the website’s structured format allows no room for “creative language.”
“Phone conversations used to turn into heated battles, then the battles moved to e-mail,” Kissoon says. “The site helps compartmentalize what everyone is doing. In co-parenting classes, they emphasize businesslike communication. The site provides organization—there are no long e-mails back and forth.”
With Our Family Wizard, parents can limit communication to filling in the blanks—soccer game, what day, what time, what the child needs to bring.
Features
Our Family Wizard includes the following features:
- Calendar—each calendar event, such as soccer practice, includes which children participate, the location, the drop off parent and the pick up parent.
- Journal—entries can be shared or private. It’s a place to document any incidents, and all notes are time and date stamped.
- Message board—With no outside e-mail servers, there are no lost messages and always a way to verify a message has been received.
- Info bank—A place to manage all family information, such as schools, childcare providers, immunization history, emergency contacts, insurance and more.
- Expense log—tracks shared expenses, automatically calculating each parent’s contribution.
Documentation
An important benefit of Our Family Wizard is its level of documentation:
- Each entry is time and date stamped—who created it and when
- Every page is stamped with the last time both parents viewed it
- Messages cannot be altered or unsent
- Dates on journal entries cannot be altered.
- One parent cannot change the other parent’s information
- Nearly everything can be tracked back to an IP address
- An accurate chronology of events can be produced
- All pages are printable
The software includes the option of third-party accounts, so, if necessary, therapists or guardians ad litem can monitor communications. If a parent engages in abusive behavior, it is readily discovered and difficult to deny.
With Our Family Wizard, it becomes easy to tell who is complying with court orders, and who is not. Kissoon relates why one judge said he liked the software: “It gives people enough rope to hang themselves.”
In an early pilot program for the software, a judge ordered 40 families to communicate only through Our Family Wizard. For two years, none of the families were back in court.
Testimonials
The Our Family Wizard website includes testimonials from parents. “Manuel S” wrote:
I am thankful to this avenue of communication. It has controlled the nasty phone calls from my ex-wife to me and my wife, and has put an end to her foul language since she is aware the content of messages is monitored. I have documentation to avoid he said she said situations and her violations of my rights to see my kids!”
Penny says the website works. “Please mention to readers that they can request that Our Family Wizard be ordered by the judge hearing their case,” she wrote. “The judge can order the Our Family Wizard email as the sole means of communication between couples litigating a child custody/visitation dispute.”
For more information, visit:
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
wakingup says:
Jeannie,
Yes its 2:30 am but im up giving my son a breathing treatment and saw that you responded.
When the plug came out labor didnt begin for another 3 weeks so we were fine, but my ex wasn’t even there on the day the baby was born because he was with his girlfriend. He had lied to her and told her that we were not together and that I had gotten pregnant on purpose to “trap” him…. what a line of shit. Who’s the one who was trapped? He was living a double life, one with me and one with her. He would actually be with her and come home to me in the middle of the night claiming he had been at work. Puke. He had her convinced that I was an evil bitch and they actually sat down together on the computer to look up births at the hospitals to see if our child had been born. He didn’t tell her he came to the hospital the next day to play doting daddy, sign the birth certificate, put on a show for the nurses, etc.
And now here we are. I left for good only 7 weeks ago and he has not seen our son since. I have prevented this although like I said he is aware of what he could do if this were really an issue. You’re right, he just wants to make me miserable and he’s doing a great job. His girlfriend, whom he moved into MY house in lightning speed time has been pushing him to take me to court so that “they” can have my son in “their” lives. I suspect she has no idea how much he’s been trying to contact me by phone, he erases the calls and texts before going home to her if memory serves and he hasn’t changed.
I just wanted to say that its nice knowing someone out there understands and to have a reminder that Im not crazy, HE IS.
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wakingup says:
Oh by the way, said current girlfriend is not the same woman he was with when our son was born. However, he was sleeping with this one at the time as well. There was a time when he would actually be with all three of us in the same day… hindsight of course, but makes me absolutely sick
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silvermoon says:
Waking Up,
Kudos for what you have done to the benefit of yourself and your son. In the long run, you will thrive for having left.
I can’t help but be amazed at the behavior of these men! Mine is writing love letters from jail while I have found out that he was legally married and dating a number of other women during our relationship….The one that ended in marriage.
I can not fathom that he does so after serving me the most insideous insults a man can deliver to a woman and when I read your story, it touched that last core nerve.
It does indeed tell, the worst. The abso;ute worst. These people go through the world victimizing others and they have done to you and me and us all here.
I can not help about all the other women who aren’t here who had the same experience of believing and loving these monsters just the way we did. There was a time I thought I was the only one and that we were in love. I knew I was.
By the grace, those days are past. Any time in life when one of these deceptions is brought to ground is a good day because it is the first step toward a healthy, meaningful life.
Thank you for your story as all of the stories remind us to keep on, encourage us that we are not crazy and connect us so in this community we become strong enough to not be lured back by any false promise.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Silvermoon,
Maybe you should save these letters and have a “share” party with his other wife(wives) and GFs and each one can bring a love letter and you can all share and compare and then take a group photo to send him in jail!
I do suggest that you might all want to think about getting STD checks for everything, wait 3 months and repeat x 2. A group of women in Texas had a guy that did that stuff and gave I think it was 6 or more of the MIV,, they ended up banding together and putting him in prison for 45 years for KNOWINGLY INFECTING THEM. Each woman thought she was the ONLY one. There was a great TV special about it and there is a link here to him I think as well (CRS!)
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silvermoon says:
Ox,
Awesome idea. I actually started communicating with his lawful wife. We have taken the first step in the directions.
Don’t think the idea of a class action pursuit hasn’t crossed my mind. Nor has the notion of pursuing all the inspection that follows his being diagnosed as a disordered person and marked forever on for it. As I understand it, there are laws that provide for this.
There is also the bigamy thing and the financial recovery which is allowed by law.
Run him down like a dawg? You bet. Like a lying HOUND DAWG!
Cry over sad songs that take me back to the fantasy? Yeah, I do. Less now than a while ago. And therapy and EMDR help with that a lot. And coming here to get more of the stories and to encourage others to stay on the path of getting free of these animals.
I think a personal appearance in court would make an even stronger statement………………….
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one_step_at_a_time says:
This has been a hard couple of weeks. I needed help and requested and didn’t get medication, as I could see bad coming and it just keeps coming. It scares me.
how I feel scares me. wanting to hide under the bed scares me. melting down and having to walk away from a conference scares me. I need authenticity. Trying to continue on and sew on my game face – it’s not working. I am constantly a few minutes away from not being able to function in a business environment. I am not able to do all the things necessary to find work here. And doing the best I can is a shifting ability. And it is becoming a shifting disability.
I am angry that everything is so hard. I am tired and fed f**king up. I have to go meet some friends – for my bday dinner. I hope I have fun. I feel very disconnected. My life has really shattered. What was, is no more. I cannot relate to people in the same way – I cannot stand hiding how I really feel. As much as my friends don’t understand or want to engage, I am starting to not want to engage with them.
There have been times here – in the last few weeks, when the people who can stand in the face of my pain, stand with me have literally saved me. it’s the not being able to be as I am in the world that makes it so hard.
I have left a message for a pastor who works at the military base here, to find out if they have any resources for civilians with PTSD. I have to go somewhere where I can ‘normalize’ this pain and stress. I am trying to find ways – but none of it is happening fast enough to staunch this oncoming flood – my stress levels just keep going up. I guess I could go to the hospital and ask for a pysch exam – that would speed things up. I don’t want to go through these months of pain as the powers that be align themselves. I don’t feel I have the time – the worse things get, the worse they will get and the easier it will be to go here again. I don’t want that. I don’t want to waste my life crumbling, as it is a waste, and it will become harder to get out of it the more I go there. Nuero pathways.
All best,
one step
p.s. I am not suicidal; I believe in life so deeply, so fundamentally. I am feeling trapped.
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silvermoon says:
One Step-
Contact an EMDR provider and see if you are a candidate for it. Its a therapy that works quickly, isn’t too outrageously expensive and is successful in treating trauma and PTSD.
Don’t forget to breathe!
You are going to be ok. Remember a hard day bespeaks a better one.
Now, cowboy up and have fun on your special day.
We’ll be right here.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
silvermoon – I have used EMDR. Not sure if there is a good practitioner in this town. Regardless, I do not have the $ resources for paid therapy. When I used it about a decade ago to move through some trauma, it was $100 a visit.
(Report abusive comment)
silvermoon says:
I’m right here.
Hang in there.
This too shall pass.
Wish there was more. but what I can, I am here to do.
happy day!
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ErinBrock says:
ONE:
You need to weigh the consequences……
I totally….understand your need!
But it seems to be taking a very pricey toll on you…..PLEASE…give this some thought…
I hope you had fun with your friends tonight and got those 50 candles you were hoping for!!!
Happy Birthday darlen!!
(Report abusive comment)
one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – well, it’s out there in the universe now, and i’ll see if it comes to me, cause sweetie i can’t go to it. i have to pay rent and it is the food bank next week. there is NO money. remember a while ago i said i had boots and sandals and no shoes? – that wasn’t a style choice. EMDR (and I checked tonight) is now $140 a visit and it would take a few visits.
dinner with friends was VERY fun. we played board games – we laughed a lot. they made me a creme caramel (friend who hosted is a pastry chef), so no candles, but a fiend showed up with the five-zero kids candles and cup cakes yesterday, and i got about the best card i have EVER seen. and i got to spend the a few hours at the conservation area yesterday. going to that that place has held me together for the last couple of years.
tonight was pretty good.
i did feel a bit disconnected, but not nearly as bad as i expected to.
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
One…no, I wasn’t referring to EMDR….I’m not even sure what that is??
Or stands for……
I was referring to your ‘plot’….and the toll that may be taking on you….
I’m glad you were with friends….it’s importand and a good tonic!!!
(Report abusive comment)
one_step_at_a_time says:
ah, okay. i don’t think that is it. actually i think waiting this long has taken a toll on me.
i have been like this since fake he fake died. it’s just gotten worse. and as the other stressors mount (money, work health), it’s gotten worse.
i had some structure before, and a paycheck and it was grindingly hard to meet my obligations – i had to work hours of over time to meet my time lines.
and i do ask myself this question, and i do listen for answers. and i will keep on doing that. i never hear much, beyond, ‘ do it’.
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
I TOTALLY understand…..this need….I do, I do…..
But I wanted to ‘remind’ you of the ‘gain’ vs ‘cost’.
That’s it…
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
(Report abusive comment)
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
I’m pleased that I’ve stumbled upon your blog and website, OurFamilyWizard! We need to learn new tools, develop fresh attitudes, and start forming co-parenting teams to enhance all our lives. Our parents in split-families and broken homes need to be given a chance to raise kids who thrive without being encumbered by the emotional battlefield that has become normal once parents no longer live together. We need to change tack in our parenting methods and styles, and we need new strategies that work when our children and teens are living between two homes and diverse cultures inside what they call their own family.
Great blog and website, OurFamilyWizard, we will be looking into your website offering in more detail, as we (Complex Family) operate in a complimentary market – focusing on support for families touched by separation, divorce, or some form of family breakdown.
Complex Family understands the complications, and the uniqueness of split-family parenting (parenting beyond separation or divorce), when we no longer live together – and we are here to walk beside parents throughout the journey. And OurFamilyWizard appears to be a complimentary service that we could promote to our customers to make life easier!
Jill Darcey
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
Hi Jill:
Welcome to LF.
I do want to point out one MAJOR issue that differentiates the coparenting issues.
Coparenting with someone the demostrates Cluster B personality disorders is a totally different ‘ball game’ than with a ‘traditional divorced parents.
Yes there is anger and feeling of betrayal in a split up, but coparenting with someone who is not capable of empathy and compassion towards ANYONE is impossible. When one party demostrates these behaviors, it’s only ‘buying’ time through a childs younger years.
A healthy parent has no control over the alienation and lies the toxic parent displays continuously. Life is only about power and control to them, punishments and awards and wins.
In order to raise healthy children in a two (separate) parent environment, it takes cooperation, self control and discipline (of the parents)…..and the 2 persons believing in the value and health and wellbeing of the children.
If one person see’s the children as their ‘trophies’, tools and prizes,……its a barrier that can’t be pushed down.
It’s not just about not living together…..it’s about abuse, staying safe, keeping the kids emotionally healthy and protected, so they have a chance at future.
“Parents are parents – typically doing the best with all we have.” This statement is again, fine when dealing with ‘normal’ conflicts and emotions of traditional divorces. NOT with a disordered personality.
My children were kidnapped, lied to, manipulated, stalked, harassed (directly AND indirectly) abused (physical and emotional), split and alientated from all extended family, exposed to drug environments, fed drugs….forced to do illegal acts for their father, used as a front and a cover for illegal activities, lies and deciet etc…..
HE exposed this all to them……THEY saw it all and disapproved BEFORE I EVEN KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON. They lived it, they hated it and they were expected and told…..NOT to tell your mother, or it will be the end of our family. THEY want nothing to do with their father.
We have had 2 stalking and harassment orders extended and 3 TPO’s extended………the latest last month….my eldest (18) has filed his own!
Please tell me……How do I co-parent from there? This person is disordered and NOT a normal healthy person. I believe he is a sociopath and have been told such by his psychologist….yet undiagnosed…b.ecause he bolted prior to the heat getting hotter on him.
It sounds great to be able to coparent in split family relationships, and I greatly admire those who achieve this (and I most certainly DO believe healthy coparenting Can be achieved in ‘most’ split families)…..but I can guarentee you……NONE of those split families are dealing with a sociopath in this mix!
I have always maintained…..If I could wave a magic wand over the spath and ‘make’ him a decent human being for his children…..TO THIS DAY, I would! Not perfect……just the father any child deserves.
It was not my wish to have it end like this……my kids do NOT have a father……they have a sperm donor who has attempted to destroy them. THAT IS NOT A FATHER!
BTW……I think your site is very informative. And I also think it could benefit from some research on co-parenting with a Cluster B personality disordered person……valuable infomation!!!!
Thanks
(Report abusive comment)
Buttons says:
EB – precisely. Spath does not – DOES NOT – have the best interests of the child(ren) in mind, EVER.
(Report abusive comment)
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
Hi there Erin,
I sincerely agree with you; parenting with a cluster B personality disorder parent (or any serious disorder for that matter) is totally different to traditional split family parenting.
While we have a resident Psychologist on our team, unfortunately we are not setup to cater (at this stage) for parents in this situation. This is an extremely specialised and delicate situation (as you’re well aware) and requires extensive experience to assist, guide and support parents and families in these types of situations.
You and your children have certainly walked a very challenging path, and by the sounds of things, admirably in the face of adversity!
My post was acknowledging OurFamilyWizard.com’s website services, which may assist and compliment our services for (traditional) split-family parents, single parents, or co-parenting situations.
In situations with our clients, whereby parents are able to communicate with the other parent (not necessarily constructively), or a parent has passed away, or a parent is in jail etc, then we focus on assisting and teaching the children’s cooperative/remaining parent to teach their children the necessary tools to cope and deal with their new life situation. We firstly focus on teaching the cooperative/remaining parent tools to assist themselves to adjust to their own new life situation, and to improve it one day at a time; as parents can only be of significant benefit to their children if they themselves are in a loving and healthy space, enabling them to ‘give out of an abundance’ to their children – as opposed to from an ‘empty well’.
The best that we can typically do (as parents) is to focus on teaching our children how to identify and heal the hurts and scars they are living with. We can also only ever have the best relationship that we can with anyone … and sometimes that may have to be solely within ourselves (eg. the other party is deceased, mentally ill, in jail etc) in the form of acceptance (not condoning) and forgiveness in ourselves (again, not condoning the actions of another).
Thank you for your feedback about our website – and I will certainly pass this onto our Psychologist for his consideration, with the goal of posting information on our website to assist parents in similar situations to yours.
Warmest,
Jill Darcey
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OxDrover says:
Jill, you won’t find any “normal divorced co-parenting couples” here–we are all dealing with SERIOUS issues of abuse and survival, not just who gets junior for Christmas and who for Christmas eve. I am afraid you won’t find any “traditional” split family parents here.
The reason that Ourfamilywizard is or could be helpful to co-parenting with a psychopath is that it gives a timed undeniable log of what was said and when which can be used in court. Psychopaths are pathological liars and this is very necessary.
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
Hi Jill;
I’d be very interested in getting your resident Psych’s views on Cluster B’s.
One of the very frustrating issues we face, is the amount of professional’s who don’t ‘get it’, and offer guidance without fully understanding ‘our’ situations.
This goes from the medical profession to the legal profession.
To protect our children fully, it is essential we have a ‘team’ of professionals who ‘getit’.
I, fortunately, had a therapist who ‘got it’…..but i’m not so sure it was right away. He evolved with me weekly. I would bring in literature and we’d devise a plan of protection.
As time and the ‘ante’ grew, the spath was very predictible in his actions and claims. My therapist, after being shocked into not being shocked any further…….saw my approach in exposing the spath in the legal system, to protect my children legally and we councelled on keeping the balance.
My approach was harsh, hard and straight forward. I call it ‘backspath’. I used the sociopaths behaviors back on him. i didnt’ defend wild accusations, I went on offense.
Fortunately, my kids were in their teens and NOT young. Otherwise, I think he may have been able to grip them with his activities and abuse.
My kids suffer from PTSD and showed signs of ‘stockholm syndrom’ when they were kidnapped. (gone 3.5 months).
Society needs more professionals willing to ‘get involved’ and educate and help others with the realities of Cluster B’s.
Medical AND legal. Lf has several professionals who have ‘lived’ the hell of a Sociopath and offer us food for thought.
It’s like finding a needle in a haystack to identify a professional who ‘get’s it ‘ and can offer US some guidance in the real world.
In the meantime…..those of us in this situation WILL continue to do whatever in our power to keep our kids and ourselves safe…….
Thanks Jill……I hope you do delve into this ‘side’ of the coparenting spectrum.
Keep us posted.
(Report abusive comment)
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
Hi OxDrover … yes, I appreciate that now – and hence my post to Erin clarifying my initial post was responding to the merits of OurFamilyWizard.com’s services to compliment our particular services.
Unfortunately my post was inappropriately placed when commenting on predominantly typical split family parenting scenarios (ie. not the serious disorders, abuse or survival issues being addressed on this site) … and for this I sincerely apologise – my post would have been far more appropriately placed on OurFamilyWizard’s website.
Erin, I will be catching up with our Psych regarding Cluster B’s and serious disorder situations next week. And I completely agree with you, society most definitely needs far more professionals willing to get involved, assist and guide those living through these horrific realities. An alarming increase in numbers of children (and parents) are affected by seriously dysfunctional and disturbing adult behavior, which in turn frequently self-perpetuates into our next generation, leaving our children with little hope of growing into healthy adults.
In closing, while I have walked a path of raising 3 children in a split-family for over 10 years, parenting with a sociopath is not a path that I have walked, nor can I comprehend the magnitude of your situations. Therefore, as one parent to another, I can only offer my most sincere, compassionate and loving thoughts to you, Erin, OxDrover, and others participating in this LF group.
Warmest,
Jill
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
I don’t think it was a coincidence you found LF.
Ourfamilywizard is a wonderful tool for all coparenting situations….and as Oxy stated above, we have ‘tapered’ it to suit our needs aswell.
These personatlity disorders are slick in the courtroom, and when ordered to coparent with a sociopath EVERYTHING must be documented. Personal emails are used to harass, phone calls exploited and this leaves the ‘victim’ and coparent open for more abuse.
For those involved in Cluster B personality disordered relationships/coparenting…..OFW is a valuable tool. A tool which a child advocate, the judge and attorneys’ can monitor. If one party uses it to harass or threaten, it’s right there……If one party said they weren’t notified of an event…..it’s right there….
It shows log in, from what computer and who…..and all content.
It’s WONDERFUL! And highly recommended.
I hope you take this clandestine opportunity to educate yourself about Sociopaths and Cluster B personality disorders and the severe damage and destruction they flail around….to children…..their smallest victims.
You can find all sorts of articles here, along with Lf bloggers personal experiences in comment form.
It will give you a well rounded insight into what we live with and survived……
Sociopaths make up 1-4% of the population…..they are ALL around us….
Every single person who can educate themselves, and in turn speak to others, will aid in shutting down the Sociopathic hellish behavior, and quite possibly save a life along the way.
Sociopaths are our neighbors, parents, children, partners, lawyers, Dr’s, teachers, preachers, local cop, babysitters and uncles, coaches, friends, inlaws and the list goes on…..NONE OF US ARE IMMUNE!!!
I think you landed here for this education, I hope you take advantage of this opportunity.
I congratulate you for raising and coparenting successfully with your ex. This alone is a large accomplishment…..but better yet…..a huge gift to your beautiful children. Wonderful!!!
I look forward to the input from your psych and his/her recommendations and thoughts on this subject.
Again…..Welcome to LF….I trust you find the information here helpful.
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
“reasonable people” even dysfunctional ones, are able to co-parent with a minor amount of problems. Like ErinB said, you have an opportunity to learn about the ones who are NOT the reasonable ones, even dysfunctional ones but the TOXIC ones that use their children as battering rams to injure the other co-parent with, totally careless of the damage done to the children.
About 75% of domestic abusers are psychopaths, so there are more than a few psychopaths involved in divorce. It is common for psychopaths to have multiple sexual relationships and many children scattered around, many times uncared for, or used as poker chips in the game of “life.”
There is no “treatment” or “therapy” that is able to help the psychopath, only therapy and help for the victims—who many times are so wounded and broken they are in dire straights.
I suggest that you start by reading Dr. Robert Hare’s “Without Conscience” and look at LF’s list of books as well as the book reviews here on LF among the articles.
I have NO doubt that when you start learning about psychopaths you will come to a point when you say “AH HA!!!! That sounds just like X” and by having this knowledge you will be better able to help your own clients, by validating them when they are dealing with a psychopath. Lack of validation from our families and our friends, co workers and therapists is a big problem with victims of Psychopaths. The “Oh, it’s just a divorce, get over it and get on with your life.” People who have not dealt with a psychopath have no idea what devastation their attacks can leave.
(Report abusive comment)
chinagirl says:
Hi! I am new here…I just wrote a profile and not sure if I was to put a “mini” story on my profile but that is what I did.
I am so grateful to have found you. I have been pretty alone the past five years post divorce from what I now know to be a sociopath and narcissist. I was married for 7 years….he was married before me and then got married a third time 5 months after our divorce. We have a little girl who is 9 and he is using her on this battlefield. I am desperate to learn more, to understand more and figure out how to take better care here because I am sinking. He has a lot of money, a little power, some credentials that make him high profile in his town and once I left my friends, my church, everyone abandoned me. He was abusive and controlling, obviously!, and he raped me…even that didn’t force me to leave. I didn’t want to get divorced…but when I read the words discard on your site I thought, yep, that is what he did. use me and discard me. I couldn’t have kids and we adopted, but he was the golden boy of his family and I was the “uterus”. I overheard his grandmother two years after we married and after 4 miscarriages say to him, “Honey, she is to fing old”. I about died. The family was as abusive to me as he was and his anger towards women stems from his mothers abuse but he is too afraid of her to face that. So, initially he talked about his first wife our entire marriage and now I am the topic. He lies and slanders me, he has called people I dated, called my employer, called my landlord, called my brother who is a mental health nightmare and when my mother died recently he accused me of stealing her medications! He didn’t even say I am sorry. But that is where I am naieve…why would he say that? When his grandmother died, the one who said I was too old, I called him and offered condolences…But as you probably know I could go on and on and on. The things he has done to “destroy me” (his words “I will destroy you”) have been insidious…slow and hard to believe. Attorneys, therapists, friends who are therapists…no one understands this. They are all thinking that I must be doing something wrong for this to still be happening five years after divorce. it is just getting worse. I lost my job because of him (and there is a pending lawsuit for that because I had never had one bad report a work) and lost custody of my daughter….there is no reason for that but the fact he is a schmoozer, the strong silent type, but if you look in his eyes you will see the evil. I think you know what I mean? But people think he is a god….they believe what he says. He uses his credentials and also lives in a small town so he is big fish, little pond, big man on campus kind of guy…He told me I would never leave him and it felt like a threat. I remember at the end feeling sucked dry…like I was a skeleton of what I once was…and 2 weeks after leaving him I lost 20#, felt so happy and alive, a huge weight off my shoulder, I felt like myself again. Then the nightmare really began. I had no idea what I was in for and up against. My attorney asked me if I thought he would seek custody. I said no! He told me the last year of our marriage that my daughter and I would have one night a week with him and the “rest of the days are mine” so I fugured he’d be thrilled I was leaving and leaving with my daughter. I had no idea he would do something so evil…ripping her away from another mother when for four years we were together 24/7. My poor daughter kicked and screamed and spit and scratched at him and he watched, blank and feelingless as she did this and would grab her and put her in his car. He wouldn’t even say hi to her. This is not about me being an unfit mother. He would even say, when we were married, that I was a great mom and his father would always tell me that…this is about him needing to save face and be able to look in the mirror and be ok. Because two women left him means there is something wrong with him. I wonder deep down if he knows this…I think he does. He used to say he was a “miserable man” but maybe that was another smoke screen. He was good with smoke and mirrors, especially when it came to money. I remember feeling about 4 years into the marriage that he led a dual life but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I couldn’t put my finger on a lot of things….so much didn’t make sense. I am hoping I will get some answers here and find a way to get my life back. I am so depressed and sad and feeling like I am losing everything. I feel hopeless and helpless and I know I am a strong woman. I just can’t take this on any more. My mom just died, too and there has just been so many losses. Another death in the family a few years ago and a job loss and I lost my house because after everything settled I had paid out 90K in attorney fees. Everytime I think this can’t get worse it does! Please tell me I will come back out of this! I don’t want to wait until my daughter is 18 to see her again….that is the last part…I live 2 1/2 hours away and he got the judge to make me drive there to see her and see her supervised! For no reason. The story is unreal. He has a live in nanny, 3 more kids from his 3rd wife and I know that he just didn’t want to drive my daughter to our meeting place any more…he lost one nanny and another one and now has a third one so she probably won’t do the drive, who knows…but the thing is he continues to get what he needs and I am losing my mind! Thank you for listening to such a long post. I am desperate.
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chinagirl says:
Just reading ErinBrock above about the legal, medical and mental health professions not understanding personality disorders. This is true. I am new here but I am also a therapist. I just finished grad school 2 years ago and feel great that I did so well during all of this hell. My practice focuses on treating addicted professionals but I also do a lot of work with women and after going through what I have been through, (although I need a lot more healing in this area and more knowledge) I want to get to a place where I can help other women who have gone through this. Because I can’t find a therapist who gets what I have endured and am tired of hearing “just move forward” I am going to learn as much as I can and devote myself to changing this issue. However, I need to heal first!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I am so sorry that you have endured such a harassment and abuse and that your daughter is taken away from you. It is the power he can use to hurt you, not that he cares for the child. All I can suggest for you at this moment is to just go see her as often as you can and tell her you love her no matter how far away you are.
The psychopaths hurt us just to enjoy their power, and it sounds like your P has driven you into the dirt to the extent possible.
I am glad that you found Lovefraud, this is a safe, educational and supportive place where you will be believed and will have comfort.
Knowledge is power, keep on reading as many as you can of the older and archived articles. Some of them may not resonate with you yet, but as you heal most of them will resonate with you.
Healing takes time, focus and energy and heavy on the TIME. Hang in there, and focus on getting better…focus on looking at the htings you DO have rather than at the things you don’t have. Change the things you can, and accept those things you can’t change. ((((Hugs)))) Again, welcome! and God bless.
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OxDrover says:
ps Chinagirl,
Many people on here are professionals, medical or mental health, and almost everyone here is very bright and successful…it seems that the psychopaths target those of us with a great deal of empathy. There are other things that “we” have in common, just as “they” have many things in common.
I also think that many if not most of us want to help others who are in similar shape as we have been due to the abuse we have endured.
Check on Dr. Liane Leedom’s blog “raising the at-risk child” and also her book “Just like his father.”
You are right that many professionals DON’T GET IT and that is a darned shame, but Donna is working on educating a lot of people and will be on TV on the Discovery channel this week, and others have written and published books, spoken out in various forums etc. about this and so the word is ever (slowly) expanding on this disorder.
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chinagirl says:
Dear OxDrover,
thank you for the welcome, the support and encouragement..I can feel the ‘love’ here…and it is a blessing. I feel like I have been spinning for five years and hopefully now things can change. What good advice “focus on what you do have and not what you don’t have” I have been in victim, poor me mode a lot lately especially after the recent decision by judge…It just makes me feel as if something is wrong with me when I know that there isn’t!
I can feel the empathy throughout here….I remember day three into marriage alreading having a “UH OH, who did I marry” feeling. Shoulda, coulda, woulda…..you know? ! Thanks again for the welcome.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I honestly think this blog saved my life. I’ve been here nearly 3 years and have no intention of going anywhere. This is the AA group meeting for former victims. We change from victims to victors, from mush into steel.
There is just so much great information here and I recommend to everyone new that you read the articles (about 700+) but leave the comments on them for later. For now just read and read and read. Some of them won’t resonate right away, but I go back through them from time to time and re-read them and get meaning out of ones that didn’t resonate before.
I’ lost my husband in an accident 6 years ago and have been in crisis mode pretty much ever since, with a big case of PTSD as well, and a continual crisis with a P-son (he is in prison for murder) and just couldn’t get out of that VICTIM mode. Only the last couple of years have I started to heal, to see my way out of the FOG (fear, obligation and Guilt) to discard the psychopaths in my life (the son, an X boy friend, a psychopath by proxy my maternal DNA donor, etc. etc.–long list) That stress that they put on us,a nd that then we put on ourselves is way too heavy to carry and we have to emotionally and physically rest from that state. Do holmes and Rhe’s stress schedule and see where you rank. I hit the max, times 3-400%! That stress is not good for us, causes burn out so make the most of your life, the things you do have.
Start making a list of them. Start out with “I have enough clean water to drink every day” and go from there. Read the NYTimes and see how fortunate you are to have that ONE blessing. How many people don’t have that blessing? A great many people on this planet don’t have that blessing.
When I get to feeling sorry for myself, I try to count those blessings and concentrate on even one of those blessings and I feel pretty RICH when I do. ((((Hugs)))) and God bless! Glad you are here!
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chinagirl says:
Hi OxDrover,
Thanks again! I am so sorry for your losses and struggles. You appear to definitely have gone from mush to steel. Thank you, too, for helping me figure out what to do next. Sometimes we just need someone to hold our hand and say do this…and then do that…i am at that point and will do what you have suggested. It reminds me of when we went to china to adopt our daughter….our agency was great and i felt like a kindergarten class on a rope….letting them lead the way. It was actually a relief to not have to be in charge…just wanted my daughter! Didn’t want to have to make sure things went smoothly in a country I didn’t speak the language at all. (Although I made a valiant effort! I still can basically only say Shae Shae and NiHao!)
I look forward to an lifting journey from here on out. I think I have exhausted my catecholamines and am just blank. My brother is colluding with my ex and he is messed up mentally. I am not sure he is a sociopath because I think he used to have empathy but something has happened to him as well….he rages after my father who has alzheimer’s and with my ex calling and them working together I have been dealing with family fights since my mom’s death and custody of my father…my father begged me to get a restraining order on my brother and I tried and since I am from out of their state the entire thing backfired on me and I was swirling around in that mess as well. it is unbelievable and I’d begin to think there was something wrong with me if I didn’t have a couple of friends I have known for 25 years that know I am the sane one in that group of “relatives”. I just want both my father and my daughter back. As I said earlier, i think it can’t get worse but yet it does. Now, however, I want to stop the madness and take action…or maybe not take action but work smarter. I have been working with my emotions which has caused me more problems. I wish i could do a lot of this over but I am here now and will be reading and learning and listening. Thank goodness for you all. Thanks again for the advice and insight.
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Hopeforjoy says:
Chinagirl,
So sorry to hear about your circumstances. I want to offer you my sympathy about your mom passing. You have had way too much adversity in such a little amount of time. There are some wonderful people on LF who have alot of knowledge about sociopaths and narcissists. Erin Brock has great legal advice and Oxdrover is warm and sensitive and will offer a practical point of view. Many people here will support you and listen with an open heart and mind.
What you have gone through is like believing the impossible, but we believe you. The spath/narc just wants to win and your ex is doing all he can so you don’t win, even if it is at the expense of your daughter. Just keep letting her know how much you love her and don’t give up the fight. Even if your ex has won this battle it doesn’t mean that all is lost. His current wife will eventually figure him out as well.
Take care and stay strong!
Hope4joy
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OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Sounds like you have had a PLATE FULL AS WELL!!! That family game of “ring around the rosey” is awful too. I came up in a family of origin that was dysfunctional to the max, so a lot of the enabling etc seemed “normal” to me—all the drama and so on. I finally figured out it wasn’t and so in the end, I lost both my biological sons, one a psychopath and the other not a psychopath but dysfunctional none the less, I do have a wonderful adopted son, however, and he is my rock.
I can bet your daughter is going to be a very smart young lady if you got her from China, so don’t give up on her seeing the light before this is all said and done.
Lowering the stress level in your own life will help you, and it takes TIME for our bodies to overcome that long term stress over load. I’ve had a pretty good spell of peace for most of the last ocuple of years and can tell that the PEACE is actually starting to feel “normal now” though the only way I can tell that I am not really stressed now is that if I AM stressed I melt down and can feel literally getting physically ILL from the stress. It does go away sooner now. I don’t STAY super saturated with the stress hormones any more.
I sort of “had it out” with my oldest bio son in The New Year of Dec Jan when I caught him lying to me—about something insignificant, but none-the-less, I do NOT tolerate ANY LIES from anyone, he knew that, he chose to lie to me, and I enforced the boundary. He is not welcome at my house any more. I communicate with him by short, business like e mails on things we must communicate about, and that is all I will communicate with him. His life is his own.
You might say that’s pretty “tough consequence” for one small “white lie.” Nah, it isn’t about THAT one small white lie it is the 1,000 before that PLUS the “one small white lie.” He knew that in advance, and chose to lie, so now he can have the consequence. It hurts me as well, because I would choose for him NOT to disrespect me by lying to me, but it wasn’t MY choice. It was HIS choice.
They have choices and we have choices. I am glad though that your daughter is NOT his biological child. At least you are better off genetically since she doesn’t have his genes! I think the “success rate” of the girls adopted from China is very good as far as them being bright, and genetically healthy. It isn’t like the kids coming out of Romania and Russia that are physically starved, emotionally detached, fetal alcohol, etc. I know there are people who can handle some of those kids, but God bless those that can. One of my cousins adopted a child with fetal alcohol, and she knew in advance and has had the strength and resources to make him into a productive and happy young man in spite of his problems from the fetal alcohol.
You’re in a great profession to find help and support for yourself appropriately and when the time comes you can set off on your mission to help others, you will be well on your way to being an expert in that field. I am so glad for you, you DO HAVE MANY BLESSINGS besides enough fresh clean water every day!
And Hopeforjoy is right, there is a wealth of support here. (((Hugs)))
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chinagirl says:
Hi Hope for Joy and Oxdrover!
Thanks again for the support. What a relief to just be here among people who understand and believe. I have felt almost crazy lately. I realize how naive I have been….but not any more.
As far as family of origin: yes, lots of dysfunction there…grew up with it, sought counseling for it for many years, worked out a lot of the issues and am blessed to have the insight to change the things that needed changing about me. Work in progress….
As far as consequences (Oxdrover)No! I do not think it is harsh….Since having to deal with my s ex I firmly push for accountability not only in myself but in everyone around me. No liars, no theives, not bs! Can’t do it. I believe in natural consequences and I raised my now 26 year old son that way. He is a great guy and is supportive-kind of. I think he doesn’t quite get this and thinks I have done something..you know? I have tried to tell him the whole story but I struggle with burdening him with stuff…this man, the s, isn’t his father.Thank god. Sadly my x ex and his new wife have just bred 3 more children. Like you all said, I hope that his new wife will soon figure things out. From some of the things she has had to witness its possible, but I don’t know her at all and she ahs pretty much believed his lies.
That’s the hard part…being slandered and lied about constantly. Because of his “credentials” he has managed to get me kicked out of a house I rented recently (I do have a lawsuit pending that my attorney said I should win because they had no reason to kick me out..they said “we recently heard some very concerning things about you”….and also got fired and I am suing them for wrongful termination. On top of the stress I have already endured I have to deal with moving twice (after being fired I had to leave my condo…then got kicked out of the house). If I just heard these stories I would think I was a loser….and yet I KNOW I have done nothing to deserve this except to have married this creep. People around me keep saying “just live your life”, or “Just pretend he doesn’t exist” and first: that is naive….I have been doing that but with my ex he will do whatever he can to undermine or hurt me and as he told me “I will destroy you”. and second: I feel that I am almost setting myself up..do you know what I mean? That he has been doing this crazy thing to me and I have been dealing with it so long that I over react in every situation assuming it is him doing things when maybe it isn’t. But, maybe that is the crazy making of this? See how much help i obviously need! LOL!
I have my sense of humor and I still have my practice which is slow but I am grateful for what I have. I have been able to work and do a very good job of keeping my personal life out of my practice…I have one client who after knowing him for a couple of years and then discharging him say he would never have guessed I had any huge stressors in my life based on how I presented myself at my work…so that is a blessing. I just feel like I am at the edge right now and again, thanks for support and being here. I have been reading article after article..wow…do I belong here!
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bulletproof says:
I relate to you on the people around you who do not get it and come up with cringeworthy statements like forget about him, and pretend he does not exist…so harmful to try and block the impact, the damage and the pain…so stay here and keep putting the words out so you can see the feelings emerge, here with people who can hear you and have infinite patience with you!
the edge is a scary place to be…but a dear departed friend of mine always said “if you are not on the edge..you are taking up too much room” she welcomed my edginess and saw it as the “growth edge” the “cutting edge” the “leading edge” and whether you balance, fall or jump you are gonna learn something fantastic….
yeah? sure does not feel like that at the time..I really thought I would die with the paradox, the complex hideous trick he played out on me…no one knows the damage only him…and me….. forging us to bond in a particularly twisted way, it makes me want to vomit (projectile, luminous green, exorcist style) keep talking through it…and we will get to other side somehow
One step- what about a vomit theme some week? we need a detox!!
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chinagirl says:
Bulletproof,
I find your “edge” analagy to be very interesting and helpful, too….in that I so feel on the edge and because of feeling that way have thought I might not make it back. But I can look at being on the edge as the way you described it….and that this entire path I have been on is a way to some incredible growth and understanding. I have been through so much….family of origin dysfunction, therapy, miscarriages, recovery from vicodin (10 years), more therapy, horrible marriage, sick parents, death of my son’s fiance (auto accident) five years ago, mom’s death, brother who is after me now along with ex, etc etc etc….and I am strong. We all have courage here or we wouldn’t be here. I could have thrown in the towel but I REFUSE to allow him to take me down. I never thought my life would be like this at my age but I am still vibrant and have a lot to give back and I want to raise my beautiful daughter. I waited seven years for her! he didn’t even want to adopt because he needed his genetics littering the earth. Ok, not going there…..LOL….I promised myself I wouldn’t be a drain here….although I realize this is a place to vent the more I vent and stay negative the worse it is for me. The thing that has been helpful is to read about things I have felt or thigns that have happened that make me feel validated in my feelings, thoughts and even behaviors that have been at times psycho. psycho in that I have allowed my emotions to run me. the other part of the strength i have gained through this is that I can relate to so many more of my clients. I get it, I have been there. Especially with this particular disorder because as we all have realized no one really gets it in the mental health world. No one that I have worked with really does…even therapists who work with domestic violence batterers understand the sociopath and how insidious and scary it is.
I wonder how much my ex’s new wife knows about how he spends his time. As much time as he spends attempting to sabotage me I wonder how he can have a medical practice, raise four kids, including my incredible daughter who told me about four months ago “I don’t have any best friends now except TaiLi and Pip (her cats, one here, one with him) and I just wait until I am with you mama”. How sad is that? It breaks my freaking heart and I KNOW he tells her (she is almost 9) that I am doing something wrong by the way she talks to me….saying “I doubt I’ll be able to come up and see your new office any more”. HUH? he has also told her that she will NEVER live with me and he has also told her I am using drugs. Which is not true and I have been doing urine drug screens for four years that prove it! (Since I am in recovery it is a way for me to stay accountable to myself, to my clients, to my family….and I chose to do this and chose to do them witnessed even because he would then come back and say that I faked them) But I struggle with do I remain completely transparent and have nothing for him to work with? Or do I get any privacy what so ever? Does anyone understand that? I have nothing to hide and I hate being on the defensive. I read somebody’s post saying we need to get out of the defensive mode and get on the offense. That is so true. Ok, I ramble….and my goal here is to get out of victim mode and not feel sorry for myself, be helpful, and also heal and change my life! I feel more empowered being here…..
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OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Right now, I think you need to find some peace of mind, some quiet time within yourself. How or where you find that time, through meditation, relaxation therapy, vacation, whatever method you use. You need to get out of WORRY MODE. VICTIM MODE. and into PEACEFUL MODE. Give your adrenal glads a rest….and let your body heal. It won’t be quick and it won’t be easy.
The serenity prayer is very appropriate about now.
When you see your daughter just reassure her that you love her forever and that you think of her always. Give her a time of day that can be a special time between the two of you when you and she think about each other. I saw this on a movie promo the other day, at 9 p.m each night the man and woman would both drink a cup of water and think of the other one doing the same thing that exact same minute. That might be a comfort to your daughter and something he couldn’t take away. Tell her it is a secret between the two of you.
I know it must break your heart for a child you love to be separated from you by the freak of nature “father”—-but for right now that is the REALITY, a reality you hate, that she hates, but it is reality that for NOW can’t be changed, so it must be accepted and the best made of how it IS for your sake and for your daughter’s sake.
Maybe you can make up a little book for her of pictures of the cat at your house and his “day” and past them inside a book made of construction paper and tied with ribbons, and caption the photos of him eating, sleeping, climbing, playing, etc to give to her when you see her.
I’m sure that HE doesn’t “raise” 4 kids and have a medical practice, he probably ignores 4 kids and has a medical practice and lets his current wife raise the kids.
And actually unless the wife is a beast, that is probably better for your daughter that he is busy and not there with her that much. Keep strong, and take care of yourself. l((((Hugs))))
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chinagirl says:
One question -
Is anyone afraid their s ex will “pose” on this site as a victim? I must be so paranoid I realize but after realizing he has called a man I dated, my employer, my landlord, friends, hacked into my computer (believe me when I say he has resources and tons of money). I had been on match.com thinking I might want to date (still don’t) but I am too afraid to be on that site…it feels parasitic and scary…unless that is just me and my paranoia…What does everyone think? Thanks
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OxDrover says:
Dear China girl,
UNless he has a keystroke program on your computer I would doubt it.
Internet dating sites are nothing in my opinion but TROLLING sites for psychopaths and would NEVER RECOMMEND that you internet date at all.
I would be very careful of any Face Book or other social networking sites as well,. but I wouldn’t worry about LoveFraud.
We occasionally have a troll come here but they are just more “generalized” ones that are mostly kids looking to cause a stir, we spot them, refuse to interact with them, they throw a fit and Donna blocks them. End of story. ((((Hugs))))
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bulletproof says:
chinagirl
In my experience here, not much gets past the bullshit scanners of the older original lovefrauders… they can usually ‘pick up’ spath energy through an e-mail…the paranoia is just fear, high pitched fear and it’s totally understandable.. there is an interesting way the lovefrauders gather around spath energy and literally cut it off so that it cannot survive
I wouldn’t put it past spaths to snoop around but this is a very tight network of dedicated ‘spathologists’ and they wouldn’t last long…a spath would get very bored after a while here because there is nothing here for them….they would not make head nor tail of this place…it’s a hostile place for them to find themselves…what would he gain from reading your pain? a pathetic sense of self importance that he can reduce a woman to this? I still think, being the site that it is.. expressing yourself here is better than sitting on it, regardless of him…we shall overcome? it’s not about THEM…it’s about US
I feel for you and your situation. It is awful there is a 9 year old in the middle of it..it’s heartbreaking. Oxy gave some lovely advice and taili and pipi are natural healers being cats!! but it is difficult for you no doubt.
I really like what you say about coming out of defensive mode and into offensive …. There is something to it! I would promote assertiveness over anger..but I have been known to rage and wild horses couldn’t stop it! I would advocate privacy over transparency….humans are just not transparent…maybe if we were ghosts it would work..or spirits…then things could just pass through but on earth things impact and burn and hurt like hell and to be over exposed to that energy is just asking for trouble.
the body is a physical thing and needs to be protected from evil whether is physical violence or malicious psychic intent
ha ha I’m laughing as I consider HOW a spath would pose as a victim here on this site!! maybe I shouldn’t be laughing and ..aaargh what if….if….they are all spaths posing as victims!!
keep reading and voicing your concerns, dip in and out as you feel..well that’s what I do and it has really helped so much..oh and read everything!!! some brilliant advise, articles..so much support and most of all UNDERSTANDING x
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OxDrover says:
Bulletproof, THEY DO POSE AS VICTIMS HERE—-there have been several.
My Spath detector goes off when someone comes here and:
Seldom or never gives back to others support or kindness
Continues to whine about things they COULD do something about but don’t.
Blame their “spath” for EVERYTHING in their lives
Nothing is ever their fault or responsibility
Assume no responsibility for allowing the abuse to go on after they “saw the light”
Refuse to go NC with the psychopath even if they could
Continue in revenge mode and petty revenge mode and never get out of that mode
and so on, there are tons of things that just are “gut feelings” that before long you can spot them even on LF and even with them seeming to be victims.
Unfortunately MANY DYSFUNCTIONAL P-RELATIONSHITS have TWO Ps and the “loser in the fight” then presents themselves as a victim, LOOKING FOR NEW PEOPLE TO SUPPORT THEM AND PITY THEM AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM.
I actually took in (Physically) one of these PSEUDO-VICTIMS last summer to help her out, but before long I saw she was a LEECH not a person trying to heal. So I showed her the DOOR (or in my case, the GATE to the county road and suggested she leave since she had obviously NOT BENEFITED from the opportunities I had offered her to get a JOB or get HEALTH CARE and so on….the only difference in her being here was she was 3 months older than when she came. She was simply a Psychopath that had been whipped down either by other psychopaths or by her intended victims who had gotten on to her game.
She was a great actress though I will put that to her credit, but by looking at what she SAID versus what she DID it became apparent that she had NO intention of helping herself. She was obviously too GOOD TO WORK and menial labor. Well, I worked my way through college cleaning other people’s homes and scrubbing their toilets, so you know how that went over with me! LOL
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chinagirl says:
Again, thank you so much….everyone…
As I read I start remembering things I had forgotten…but reading puts a kind of normalcy to my pain. Normalcy in that I am not alone and it isn’t only me or the ‘what is wrong with me” feeling. Because my s ex wants me to beleive it is all my fault. the lies in court….unreal! I wouldn’t consider lying under oath and when I heard him do this several times I started to understand his illness. When I first married him I thought “he is too good for me! I don’t deserve him…” and how I thought he had more integrity than anyone I had met. His third wife said that to me once…”he is the most gentle man i have ever met”. I said the same things! So did his first wife.
What is interesting to read are things about the pornography…he is addicted to internet pornography and that is what prompted our marriage counseling. We did marriage counseling for about 3 years but he never really got “real”. At the end, he started to look at the issues around his mother…she is the one he hates but she is too dangerous to go up against for obvious and many reasons…and yet he started to go up against her and call the family on their behaviors…well, that lasted about a month and he came home after a 2nd trip out to see his family (the therapist told him to confront them) and he came back saying “No, I was wrong. the things in my childhood didn’t happen” and that was it. he was done and our marriage went downhill faster….then in court for the divorce he told them that I introduced him to pornography! I about died. A friend of mine was in court with me and she choked. I gasped. And he sat there like the pompous ass he is. The funny thing is he has no mind of his own. When we went to court I brought in a support system…the next day he came in with a support system. The first day i brought in a small photo album to present that showed pictures of my life with my daughter…the next day he did the same thing. What a joker. But the other issue that I have read about is murder by suicide. I have been talking about that but had never heard the term and that is exactly what he is doing. He thinks I will kill myself in my pain and believe me I have thought about it but I’d never leave my children. And i am much too strong for that. I do fear the losses at times and the money situation right now is tenuous….but I have a spiritual belief and I hold onto that and so far God has come through! I also try to figure out the lessons I am supposed to learn going through this…and maybe it isn’t all about me…maybe there is no lesson. I don’t know. I am just trying to find a way to lessen my pain.
I am taking the great suggestions here and putting them to use. Thank you so much for taking the time to hear me and respond. It is kind of like an AA meeting…the new person helps remind what it was like at the beginning and although I don’t want to be a brain drain I know that is part of the process, too. I know that once I get to a more peaceful place I will be able to be more helpful.
Another thought when reading is to wonder about my s ex’s mother…the family was always presented as so together and so loving and close. What is really is is sickly enmeshed in a very ugly way. Even one of our therapists thought my s ex had slept with his sister and I believe this might be true. His sister is about 2 years younger and even at the age of 33 (this was 12 years ago) she was walking around in front of him with just her bra and underpants on. I remember thinking ‘is this normal for siblings?’ and I just couldn’t get my brain around it. Then his mom would walk around in the morning with just an oversized t shirt on…super short…and I thought my god are you kidding? I wouldn’t do that in front of my kid. One time when we went on vacation for the weekend and my s ex’s sister was living with us (she moved to every city he moved to, same when he was married prior to me) and she had it great…I set up her bedroom and a tv and her own bathroom so she could have privacy when she wanted it and of course she could be anywhere in the house…but if it was me i’d want to watch tv in my room sometimes….when we got back my bedroom was not a mess but messed with. I could tell because I do things a certain way and one is I clean before I leave for a vacation so when i come home it is nice. She had slept in our bed, on his side of the bed because there was food and crumbs in it and the bed was messed up a bit. and when I told my ex to talk to her he said “well if you want to get on her shit list then yes confront her but you do it”. I thought So you are telling me I can’t confront her about behaviors that are not acceptable and that you won’t take a stand? he had also said that I was causing problems and forcing him to take a side and I thought but you are married to me and it is time to move on! Anyway, after the sister moved out a month later she took my clothes, my jewelry, my DVD’s and when I asked for them back she threw them on the front porch! it was just nuts…this was the first year of our marriage and I thought this family is crazy. There is so much more….the mom is alcoholic, we put his dentist dad into treatment for vicodin and valium addiction, the mom rages and controls everything by her raging…and every vacation was to visit his family. I remember now how he isolated me form my family and my friends…and only in our church did he support what i did…. What I find amazing is how insidious domestic violence is…and how I lost my sense of self and my self esteem…and I’d start to isolate because I was angry and depressed…and then he’d rage at me and run to our friends and say “I am so worried about my wife….” and he’d get them to think that I had relapsed or something like that…and of course I hadn’t I was responding to his behavior and no one knew what really was going on. I also remember one time we were driving and I’d complained about his driving numerous times because he is a terrible driver, doesn’t use signals, always is on his phone, looking in the rear view mirror at himself or his teeth or whatever…and he’d swerve all over and just was never safety conscience…he’d get mad at me for wanting safety measures in place such as locking up medications…he’d left a needle and syringe of a flu shot on my daughters playroom floor and then he got mad at me for being upset. He said “Oh what could happen? she’d get a flu shot” and I thought “You are a doctor dumb ass”. but when driving one time he drove straight towards a barrier so the barrier was coming towards me, my side of the vehicle and then at the very last second he swerved so he didn’t crash the car into it…and acted like nothing. These kinds of things were rampant in our life and I thought I was going crazy. Sometimes I still wonder, is it me? Am i the sociopath? because he will tell me that I am the sociopath. And I sometimes wonder! Although I know that isn’t true…the one part of me is I have a huge heart and so much compassion that it is almost painful at times. and I am accountable. I am the first to look at my part in a situation. But I still allow him to get into my head and think I must be making this up. Does anyone else go through that? And yet every story, every incident is the absolute truth of what I have lived with. It just seems so unreal…and so many haven’t believed me. I dated a guy for two years after the divorce…a sweet guy, but a kind of depressed buy…we were really just great friends more than anything, he was too young for me to marry….anyway after a year of hearing me, seeing that my ex had a PI on me and knowing after having a computer forensics guy look at my computer (a gift he gave me right after I left him and I wondered why he gave it to me…..not like him you know?) and find a key stroke monitor on it…etc this boyfriend of mine told me he still didn’t quite believle me until he had a conversation with my ex’s first wife….when he heard her story and how similar it was to mine then he believed me! That’s been the hardest…that my friends think I have done something wrong.
I just feel so grateful to have the information here…it might be a bit consuming right now but I can see after I integrate all of this information, begin to really get on the offense and take good care of myself (i have not been working out, or eating or sleeping well the past several months especially, after my mom’s death and moving and starting my practice etc) that my future will change. I have to not allow myself to give up and just before I found this site I was about there…not suicide but just stopping trying. I wasn’t working smartly, as I said, I was working emotionally and it was draining me. And making me continue to make poor decisions about men…although I have not dated now for 2 1/2 years. What a great gift that has been. To get over the idea that I NEED a man. i do not! And to learn to choose a better man. Sick attracks sick…so unless I am healthy I won’t choose a good man. I do want a partner, someone where we ‘have each others backs’ kind of support system, a friendship…I think I am also scared that I don’t know what that kind of love really looks like…mostly I am afraid of intimacy in that being vulnerable is too risky right now. So that means I don’t get into a relatinoship yet. I am still not ready and for me that has been the smartest thing and the best thing I have done for myself. I found myself on an online dating service right after the guy above and I broke up and looking back I think that guy I met online was another sociopathy. he was someone that sounded exciting and fun and was kind of sexy…but when I looked into his eyes the hair on the back of my neck stood up. and I found myself with him for about a month and even his family told me he was sick mentally and his sister said he was a sociopath. I was out of there! but it was scary realizing I was attracted to him…What I think I had been doing was again reacting emotionally, my fears driving my decisions…does that make sense? And my fears when I met my ex were kind of similar…and I feel grateful to be able to see that now. That is a huge lesson.
Again, I ramble. But so much is happening right now as I read and listen and relate.
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bulletproof says:
AAAAaaaaarghhh!!! yes I can see the circle complete itself now! the psychic vampires, the energy suckers, the life drainers, the black holes…they seem so cute in the beginning…till they lock on with the fangs and then quite considerable force is needed to pull them off before you are bled..lol
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OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
MY opinion is that we need to heal and be by ourselves for quite some time after the total devastation of the experience with the psychopath. TIME ALONE won’t do it, we must use that time to work on ourselves and healing ourselves before we can be ready for a healthy relationship. Otherwise, we will not make a good partner for a healthy person and we sure don’t want to pick up another P in our neediness. That is exactly what I did after my husband was killed in an accident, I was SO needy I picked up a P. NOT a good move.
Just keep on reading and learning and growing. There will come a time when you ARE ready for another relationship! (((Hugs)))
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chinagirl says:
As I have been reading I see another commonality…my s ex asked me out and three weeks later wanted to marry me. Then he asked me to fly with him to his home town and “turn pages” for him as he played a piano concert. A few days later I saw him at work and he said “Oh I don’t want you to go with me to the concert”. He had gone shopping with me as I picked out a dress to wear for this event….and then the day before the concert he said, “OH I want you to come with”. he did this again over a Thanksgiving holiday weekend he wanted me to fly to Memphis to meet his grandmother and relatives…and have my on go with…i bought tickets and he at the last minute said “no , don’t want you to go”. He was all over the place and I broke up with him at one point….and looking back the red flags seem so obvious and so pervasive but I had not yet had any therapy and hadn’t worked out my own things so I was not looking clearly at who he was. Sadly. I actually was offered a great job in California and was getting ready to go when he presented me with a huge diamond and tons of excuses about his schizy behavior saying because his first wife ‘messed him up’ he was just so unsure about everything and then realized he couldn’t live without me. Boy oh boy do I wish I would have gone to California….You know I believe men tell us everything we need to know…there are many reasons we deny these truths and yet also some are very good at their behaviors…I take responsibility in that I saw the red flags and ignored them….and chose this guy out of some of my own fears. Its hard to admit to but its true. Had I been healthier emotionally I doubt I would have even continued to date the creep.
There is no way I am ready for a relationship right now despite the five years post divorce. The fact he married 5 months after our divorce is really scary. How could he possibly have made any changes or healed or done any work? Or really these guys don’t do that kind of self work because they are not accountable so nothing is their fault or responsibility. My friends all told me that he was not accountable, the therapists told me the same….he is still not accountable and I am guessing never will be. Do these guys change? I do like Patrick Carne’s strategy for re-uniting with a sociopath…but it takes a lot of time and work and I just can’t see someone like my ex doing what Carnes says….being commited to recovery, proving accountability and honesty….it doesn’t compute. Maybe I have misread the review of this book of Carnes’ and sociopaths do not recover. Maybe he is talking about a different personality disorder. I am going to buy the book and read it myself to see what he says. And it isn’t as though I’d ever want to get back with my ex. Not a chance. I’d never want to live with someone who was so controlling, abusive, cold…he’d pick fights with me when I was sick so he didn’t have to help me (his words), yet when he was sick with flu he’d bring iv supplies home and want me to start iv and baby him…I had surgery and he brought me home and went to get my post op meds and three hours later I had to call him as the local wore off and I was in pain to bring me my pain medications. He was at a friends house, hanging out, eating dinner with them! No, this is not a life partner I’d ever want to be with again. I couldn’t survive it!!
The other thing is I find myself in and out of fears. Irrational and rational fears. I feel like I have post trauma stress and not even as a disorder because I think we have all gone through post traumatic events here. The stress we undergo is in reaction to the events. But I think after five years my stress has turned into a disorder…since I haven’t had any way to really work through it not finding anyone to talk to until now. I am afraid to go to sleep at night. I keep having weird and horrible dreams. About my life, about my mom and dad (my mom just died in Feb), about my daughter…so I am not sleeping well because i am too afraid to sleep. How weird is that? I feel like a wreck and a bit of a loser to tell you the truth. I have had so many people accuse me of being something I’m not that I find myself in ourbursts of anger and most recently, crying jags that I have not had for four years. I have been crying more this last week than ever. And it scares me. I know walking through these feelings, not trying to mask them in anway and I am not! is what is necessary. I want to get to the other side…and its not a fun journey. Sometimes I wish I had a medical illness and not this emotional one. I am sick of the emotional stuff. My goal for this week: start my gratitude journal, eat healthy, walk daily, organize my back office (something I have procrastinated and I usually do not procrastinate. I am a blitz krief kind of person! I can paint a house in a couple of days when i set my mind to it!). As I start to do something different and good for myself I know that it will pick up momentum. I need to do what I tell my clients to do! Get out of myself. Help someone else.
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ErinBrock says:
Chinagirl:
I’m a bit late in my welcoming of you……but welcome to LF!
You will find all the support and education to hold your hand and offer ideas along the way.
We ‘get it’. !!!
One thought which came to mind…….can you reach any of his former Nanny’s? They may be able to offer some dirt on him and parenting?
Keep your stance with your daughter…..visit as often as allowed…..(by courts)…..and follow through legally with yoru rights.
If you let that process intimidate you…..you’ll lose all rights.
It’s about ‘winning’ with a spath. Not love, not caring…..just possessional winning.
I’m a big advocate for shutting them down by using their own tactics against them……backspathing.
You must be covert….and as you’ve found out…..you just can’t trust anyone….and especially if they are family….(my family all went and got sucked into the glamor of my spath)…..People have to prove themselves to me for me to ‘let’ them in.
If they think you’ll react one way….>DON”T……
NOW is the time to turn on the self discipline and self control…..as hard as it is…….but you can’t be predictible to them.
I call that ‘shaking’ it up.
When my kids were kidnapped, and my family participated…..they all thought they knew my reaction……I didn’t do what I wanted to do….and go rambo on spath……And I DIDN”T! This was CRUCIAL for me!!!!!
You see…..he was setting me up to do something he expected to make me look desperate and crazy……See….I told you she was crazy……and my family would follow suit. He wanted me commited and to him, my family was key to making that happen.
If I was ‘declared’……..he would be in ‘charge’.
YIKES!!!!
I was able to turn that situation around, get my kids back and call a spade a spade in the legal system…..but you must be more calculated and controlled than the spath!!!!
It was the hardest thing i’ve ever done…..and at a time of desperation and fear…….
I sat in the recliner for 2 weeks……day went into night, night went into day…..as I became one with the recliner.
BUT…..I had to trust in myself and my observation of the situation……
I learned patience which has also served me well…….
You can make one of two decisions…….curl up fetal in the corner…..OR…..stand up, load your big ‘gun’ and start shooting legal bullets!
Legal bullets full of FACTS, documentation and NO EMOTIONS!
No hearsay…..ONLY FACTS!
No tears…(save those for LF), show a completely IN CONTROL woman.
IT’s an uphill battle which requires strength and determination and tenacity!
It’s not over until YOU determine that it’s over…..
So girl…..stand tall, put on your big girl panties (the spiked ones) and get busy on your recon educational work.
I will assure you…..it’s a long road…..but there is peace in the end.
Right is right…..wrong is wrong….it’s all in the way you handle it!
XXOO
EB
Oh yeah…..PS….stay off the internet dating sites…..YOU AIN”T GOT TIME FOR THAT!!!!! Dating is NOT a priority. Healing and getting your ‘house’ in order comes first.
Now….get busy!
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bulletproof says:
chinagirl
Yes it all makes sense….but you are onto it now and beginning to break it down and have another look. That is a brave thing to do…finally face this and see it for what it really is. So much to take in, work out…it is truly bewildering and overwhelming…so slow down, remember to breathe and be…
I did the same thing…tried to get someone else to cover the pain…but I just couldn’t do it to myself in the end…I decided to stop dating and try and just nurse myself through what felt like a roller coaster ride of negative emotions…horrible..I needed a period of transition to negotiate the parts of me that were lost. I literally called all the pieces of me back…he had left me in bits…I was not the person I was prior to meeting him and will never be He was a major negative event in my life at a time I was feeling strong, vibrant, healthy and up for anything…so it takes time…staring at walls saying “how could he do that to me….” now I can walk around saying “how could he have done that to me” step by step
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OxDrover says:
DEar China girl,
I know you ARE a therapist but have you gotten any therapy? EMDR helped me with the PTSD and I had it very badly. I am a registered advance practice nurse, but had to retire because I didn’t have enough short term memory to function safely at work. (Fortunately I am old enough that wasn’t a big problem retiring a few years early) If I had been 30 it would have been a BIG deal.
Also, you might consider being evaluated for psychotropic medication for the PTSD by a psychiatrist. Pharmacology has saved my sanity and my life!!!! WHOOPIE DRUGS!!!!! I am now on a low dose but grateful that it helps.
PTSD is not a thing that you want to try to “cure yourself” from. It is a serious brain-altering chemical-changing REAL thing that isn’t just something to “be tough” and “get over” so don’t even try it without some serious help. LF is a great help but for most things like PTSD it isn’t enough. Serious medical help is needed here.
The eat well, sleep better, rest, and exercise is GREAT and must be a complement to the medical management and oversight. In this thing we must get ALL HANDS ON DECK to help us heal. Use every asset we have available. ((((Hugs))))) and God bless.
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kim frederick says:
EB, Become one with the recliner. Funny.
I’m going to use that when I need some meditation time.
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chinagirl says:
WOW! Erinbrock, Bulletproof, OxDrover and all LF….thank you, again and again.
Erinbrock: I really need that pep talk and the get busy! Really. It is imperitive that i get my shit together…five years I feel wasted flying around trying to get my life back together, trying to survive and wanting everything back the way it was (my beautiful house I designed, my car, my girl, my life) and I made so many mistakes this whole damn time. Even so far as to relapse…for a short time but since he had a key stroke monitor on my computer he found out and I refused to lie about it because I did and do work an honest program of recovery….so I admitted to it. I think I’d look worse if I tried to lie….so that hurt me, of course, although I had only relapsed a couple of months and I followed all the judges orders on that (she wanted me to go back and do another outpatient treatment although I had already done that and had had five years solid recovery prior to the 2 months I relapsed on vicodin…my sponsor even came to court for me) and not to justify I just couldn’t handle all the pain…my mom’s diagnosis with breast cancer, my dad was dx with alzheimer’s, my son’s fiance died, and I found out I was going to be in horrendous custody battle with a psychopath….I was alone, my friends abandoned me and I made stupid stupid mistakes. Then, i got into grad school, graduated while going to help my mom every other weekend with my dad and it took at 5 hour drive to get there…while in grad school, while driving the opposite way to pick up my dauthter 3 hours every other Friday to see her for weekends and graduated with a 3.8. So! I have done some good things as well, but as I said I am kicking myself…again…for reacting, not responding and I have let him win so far. I haven’t been to see my daughter yet because I have been trying to survive…literally but I need to get down there now. I have to pay to see her, too. $125.00 every Sat for just two hours supervised and there is just no reason that needs to happen. Anyway, didn’t mean to slip into poor me. what I am trying to say is thank you for the kick in the pants pep talk because i do need to get myself together and not be afraid. I feel very alone in this battle and I do not trust ANYONE, not even my son which sounds horrible but I just don’t. He still talks to my s ex and uses his nickname….I just don’t trust that. I will stop the dating thing. I can’t do it anyway. I inevitably cancel on everyone at the last minute anyway. I can’t imagine having a physical relationship and so far has chosen poorly still and that means I’m so not ready yet. I don’t have anything to give in that area. I give everything I have to my few clients…and I need to build my practice. I, too, am a advanced practice nurse. I used to be a nurse anesthetist and I loved the field, but when I got married we moved to a town in the NW that doesn’t have nurse anesthetists providing anesthesia and I almost think it was a plan because I was offered a job in a town I could commute to and my ex said “over my dead body” and I couldn’t understand why he said that…now I get it. Isolation, make me dependent….and it never felt good…and he always put down the things that I did do well..as I tried to adjust to not working and having my own career after years and years of working. I have always planned on going back to get my master’s in psych and because I had several anesthesia colleagues die of OD I knew I wanted to focus my practice on addiction medicine. Now I want to add to this practice helping people who have been abused by sociopaths….but as I said, after I heal.
OxDrover, yes I have gotten lots of therapy the past five years. Well, not lots, but intermittent and have worked trying to get through this but I have been diagnosed incorrectly! No one caught on to my ex’s crap and it has all been about me moving on…well as you know that is only part of this. I haven’t been able to move on because it continues to happen, the sabotage, the harrassment, the terrorizing. the 25 text messages…although at this time I have cut contact with him and try to only contact his new wife about my daughter. I don’t read his texts or emails…I just save them. And i do need some therapy…PTSD work because of not only my past but of this, to. I have never had EMDR and don’t know a lot about it…A friend does that work but she lives in Canada. The All Hands on Deck is a for sure. Thank you all…because I need to really whip myself into shape here. God, I am tired. and depressed but starting to feel like at least I have some answers and support. I wish you all lived here! LOL. And Bulletproof: my getting a guy to cover my pain just doesn’t work for me any more. I have grown up in that area or rather maybe have seen the character defect that needed attention…going from one relationship to another and NOT FEELING. I have learned in my recovery to feel and to know that they are just feelings…not good, not bad, they just are. And once I label them feel them I can move forward from them. I have had a lifetime of self destructive shit…I need to love myself. As you also said, my ex has been a negative force in my life. The person I was when I met him is gone. I miss her! Although i had some things to work on at that time, obviously!, I was alive, fun, smart, independent, made a great living, had a great condo….friends…a life! I feel like I live in a hole now, withdrawn from life. But I like the changing of the verb tense bulletproof in that he has in the past hurt you, not present. Mine feels too present tense and I need to put in into past tense. I had to read what you wrote a couple of times to hear what you were saying! But I get it.
Ok, time to KICK IT UP SEVERAL NOTCHES!
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