Our Family Wizard can help you co-parent with a sociopath
The most heartbreaking dramas that sociopaths create are those that involve children. Many sociopathic parents stand up in court proclaiming that they “only want what is best for the children.” They’re lying. What they really want is to use the children as clubs to beat their ex-partners into submission.
There is no such thing as a simple phone call to find out what little Johnny needs to bring to soccer practice. Every phone call or e-mail is an opportunity for the sociopath to manipulate, denigrate and infuriate the ex, through lies, innuendo and misinformation. For the parent trying to protect the children, it’s exhausting.
A few months ago, Lovefraud published a letter from “Penny,” who is in this situation. She wrote her Tips for co-parenting with a sociopath. One of Penny’s recommendations was that parents request that all communications with their former partners go through OurFamilyWizard.com.
Our Family Wizard
OurFamilyWizard.com is a website designed to facilitate communications between separated or divorced parents in relation to their children. It promotes “cooperative parenting:”
For the first time ever, parents can coordinate shared custody and joint custody parenting time schedules, health records, immunization histories, expense sharing, school information, virtual document storage and much more on a website specifically designed to deal with the issues that arise in co-parenting situation.
Our website is committed to removing conflict and improving the lives of children. In fact, judges in at least 35 states order families to utilize the site in contested cases to reduce conflict.
The OurFamilyWizard website is a great tool for managing difficult parenting relationships. The website provides excellent documentation to help reduce conflict that may arise from ineffective communication. Should you need to return to court, all pages are printable and most come with a preformatted print option with all the necessary data you will need to show that you have met your parenting obligations.
The service costs $99 per year per parent. “This fee is worth it,” Penny wrote. “I know this because the judge hearing my case ordered that communication between my ex and I take place solely on the Our Family Wizard website … The judge also ordered that no verbal communication is to take place between the parties facilitating the exchange of my child.”
No creative language
Approximately 10,000 families—20,000 parents—use OurFamilyWizard.com, according to Jainarain Kissoon, CEO. One reason why it helps in high-conflict situations, Kissoon says, is because the website’s structured format allows no room for “creative language.”
“Phone conversations used to turn into heated battles, then the battles moved to e-mail,” Kissoon says. “The site helps compartmentalize what everyone is doing. In co-parenting classes, they emphasize businesslike communication. The site provides organization—there are no long e-mails back and forth.”
With OurFamilyWizard, parents can limit communication to filling in the blanks—soccer game, what day, what time, what the child needs to bring.
Features
OurFamilyWizard.com includes the following features:
- Calendar—each calendar event, such as soccer practice, includes which children participate, the location, the drop off parent and the pick up parent.
- Journal—entries can be shared or private. It’s a place to document any incidents, and all notes are time and date stamped.
- Message board—With no outside e-mail servers, there are no lost messages and always a way to verify a message has been received.
- Info bank—A place to manage all family information, such as schools, childcare providers, immunization history, emergency contacts, insurance and more.
- Expense log—tracks shared expenses, automatically calculating each parent’s contribution.
Documentation
An important benefit of OurFamilyWizard is its level of documentation:
- Each entry is time and date stamped—who created it and when
- Every page is stamped with the last time both parents viewed it
- Messages cannot be altered or unsent
- Dates on journal entries cannot be altered.
- One parent cannot change the other parent’s information
- Nearly everything can be tracked back to an IP address
- An accurate chronology of events can be produced
- All pages are printable
The software includes the option of third-party accounts, so, if necessary, therapists or guardians ad litem can monitor communications. If a parent engages in abusive behavior, it is readily discovered and difficult to deny.
With OurFamilyWizard, it becomes easy to tell who is complying with court orders, and who is not. Kissoon relates why one judge said he liked the software: “It gives people enough rope to hang themselves.”
In an early pilot program for the software, a judge ordered 40 families to communicate only through OurFamilyWizard. For two years, none of the families were back in court.
Testimonials
The OurFamilyWizard website includes testimonials from parents. “Manuel S” wrote:
I am thankful to this avenue of communication. It has controlled the nasty phone calls from my ex-wife to me and my wife, and has put an end to her foul language since she is aware the content of messages is monitored. I have documentation to avoid he said she said situations and her violations of my rights to see my kids!”
Penny says the website works. “Please mention to readers that they can request that OurFamilyWizard.com be ordered by the judge hearing their case,” she wrote. “The judge can order the OurFamilyWizard.com email as the sole means of communication between couples litigating a child custody/visitation dispute.”
For more information, visit:
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Dani S says:
Would be great to have`such a facility in Autralia.I feel for any parent that co-parents with an s. I was lucky once ex husband s knew he lost control over me he took off and abandoned his children. Disowning the children was the second best gift he ever gave us.
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 7:10am
Marcia says:
And here is my testimonial about OFW:
During very conflictual litigation with my exhusband, he constantly harassed me by sending me tons of emails and text messages, etc. My attorney asked the judge to put it in my divorce decree that all communications should be via OFW. He still does send me harassing messages but at least all of it is documented. The website also has a sections for attorneys. It is great and worth every penny of that $99.00.
Dear Dani
This is an online service and I can’t see why you shouldn’t be able to use it in Australia.
Marcia
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 7:25am
jofary says:
I sure wish this service had been available a few years ago when I really needed it. Maybe I wouldn’t have lost my home and ended up in $100K debt as a result of the “tag-team” my two ex-S’s created in their joint attempt to try to take my children away from me and make a buck off my back at the same time (they weren’t successful in the former but the second ex-S was extremely successful with the latter).
Thank goodness it exists for people who need it now, though.
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 11:16am
Cat says:
Thank you SO much for sharing this site! I am in a situation now in which the ONLY communication I have with my ex is concerning our child and the majority of the time, it’s just an excuse for him to manipulate and impose more harm. What a great idea!
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 11:24am
greenfern says:
I think this would be a useful tool for dealing with any high conflict parent personality such as borderline, histrionic, narcissitic. Or any parent that uses the term “for the interest of the child” to cover up for their own needs.
My current partner has an ex who is this type of personality. I have forwarded him the link to Family Wizard. I think it would be great way to bypass the slew of abusive, self serving emails she bombards him with in the middle of the night. It would also help with conflict during exchanges. He asked her number of times to communicate through email only, but she starts picking fights during pick ups, in front the child.
He takes care of his daughter 60% of the time and pays hundreds of dollars in child support. He has never missed a beat, yet he is being punished by the ex with verbal abuse and creepy emails. I think Family Wizard could help him.
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 11:28am
fooledonce says:
during my divorce, the GAL recommended this site. I was hesitant it would do anything. But it literally saved me and I was able to go to the police to show how my ex was lying. One feature that makes it better than email is that it shows when 1) you or the co-parent or the child checks the website down to the day, hour and second and 2) it shows when you or the co-parent checks the message board. What’s so important about that is that they can’t lie and say “they never got the message”, because it shows when each person reviews the message. So even though he did not respond it shows he saw it. Classic proof for a lying sociopath.
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Tuesday, 16 March 2010 @ 9:29pm
ErinBrock says:
Fooledonce:
I’m am thrilled to hear a GAL recommeded LF!!!!
HEADWAYS, HEADWAYS……..
I’m also very glad your having success with the “our family wizard’.
Love it when we make progress for the sake of sanity and our children!!!!
Stick around…..and Welcome!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 17 March 2010 @ 12:14am
flowerpower says:
Anyone dealing with enabling friends, family who “help” them with emails and children’s duties? Please advise how to get rid of them and force parent to be responsible. I checked Fam Wizard and it would allow others to answer and post data and entries,,,making parent “look” good, although computer IP addresses can be tracked and could be used. Want to expose the “help”. Any advice???
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Wednesday, 17 March 2010 @ 8:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Flowerpower,
Welcome to LF.
Not sure how you could prevent “grandma” from helping out her “son” with his parenting duties, or driving the kid to soccer practice or whatever. As long as the child is getting that s/he needs from “family” I can’t believe the court would be against “granny” helping out with these things. However, if granny is stopping by to pick up drugs for herself or her son while she is driving grand kid to the park, then that might be a problem.
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Wednesday, 17 March 2010 @ 9:27am
flowerpower says:
Did not explain this very well. “Sister” is handling emails along with employess, friends etc ..some of these contain private info relating to the children and some are harassing to me. Ex is, as you can imagine, trying to appear as “parent of the year” and has resorted to some extreme manipulation and lies in “his” emails. I simply want to prove the fraud and enabling since he even admits that he cant use a computer and refuses to learn how. I have to repond to some of these or it appears that he is telling the truth. Any PRODUCTIVE suggestions to this or do I just keep anwering this nonsense…
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 10:21am
OxDrover says:
Dear Flowerpower,
I’m not sure how you can do that, unless you can get him to admit that someone else is sending those e mails.
I had a similar thing when my egg donor was having the Trojan Horse psychopath TRANSCRIBE the letters she dictated to him to send to my Psychopathic son in prison.
Was she actually dictating EVERY word? or was the psychopath actually putting in some words? In a few places it was CLEAR which was which, but in others, not so much.
I wish I could give you a productive way to PROVE THAT THE WORDS (not just the typing) are not his. I honestly don’t think it is illegal for a person who doesn’t type to have someone else type or transcribe their letters, BUT if they SIGN that letter or contract, then they are RESPONSIBLE for what it says as it is presumed that if they SIGN a letter or a contract then it is binding. SO—-even if his sister is saying and writing the words, then if they are nasty, HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CONTENT. If that makes any sense. Also if he TELLS LIES, I would not necessarily respond to them (sometimes that is self defeating) Like for example if he said
“You had Junior at your house last christmas”
when in fact, you had only had Junior for 15 minuters and the REST of the time had been spent at the X’s mother’s house
So, there was a GRAIN of truth in what he said, you did actually get to see Junior for 15 minutes on christmas day but the HOLIDAY was spent with fhis family.–
Not “countering” that can be problematic, but countering it can also be problematic and get into a he said/she said swabbling leg hiking contest of peeing on each othe with the kid in the middle.
I think probably the best way to go about it is to STICK TO THE LETTER OF THE CUSTODY AGREEMENT WITH VERY WELL SPELLED OUT LIMITS ON EXCHANGES, NO VERBAL CONTACT, NO ARGUING AT ALL, and no discussion of his or their lies. NO leighway in times or whatever is court ordered. NO compromimsing to “be nice” just the LETTER OF THE COURT ORDER.
Other than that, I don’t have any ideas, maybe someone else can come up with something that might help you.
We’ve had several people here who apparently “co-parent” with your X! LOL at least they sound like the same creepy guy! (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 1:44pm
Donna Andersen says:
Flowerpower,
I think Our Family Wizard may be able to help you. Someone is sending you the e-mails. The software can track the IP address of just about every communication, so you can show that other people are responding for your ex. It also tracks all communications, and nothing can be deleted or altered.
You can request the court to order that all communication goes through Our Family Wizard. You can also, if you want, set up a third-party account for someone like a parenting coordinator or therapist. That way, the third party can monitor the communications.
Sometimes these people clean up their communications when they know they are being watched.
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 1:57pm
flowerpower says:
Thanks to all! We have a PC and all emails are CC’d to him. I refuse to communicate with him except by documentable means. PC is soft core with ex..has allowed many boundary violations. I am now looking for hard core attorney to take his agreement violations ( mostly harrassment stuff) to court and possible lose the court appointed PC. I Am ready for restraining order.
He is now on the defensive and recently countering with false allegations of vandalism at me(he says they occurred about 8months ago). I have empeccable reputation, thank God I never responded to his nonsense during marriage! I focused on children and maintained some dignity as his life fell apart. He is a professional who lost his position when serial infidelities with clients were exposed.
I am trying to move on a reclaim my life and a career since I got nothing from 15 yr marriage (as so many others have lost!!) My goal is not vengeance but TRUTH. I will no longer enable and protect the lies that confuse the children and the public. I am looking for tools to help. Thanks to all of you and am so glad to find a “community” who understands…will see if he agrees to OFW . Any other suggestions??
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 2:17pm
flowerpower says:
PS to above..
the false allegations (slander/libel) were in a recent email sent by ???. That is one reason I am determined to prove others are sending, composing, typing. And sounds childish, but ex couldnt compose a third grade essay much less some of the page long dissertations being sent to me…he is vocabulary and speech challenged..PLUS cant type! LOL!!
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 2:22pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Flowerpower,
The suggestions I have for ALL new folks here is To READ AND LEARN. and there are GREAT articles in the archives, hundreds of 1-2 page articles that will reinforce what you already know and teach you more, give you ideas for self help and bolster your self esteem and growth.
If you have children, I also recommend Dr. Leedom’s blog on Parenting the AT RISK CHILD. If your X is a psychopath, there is a risk to your child both from genetics and from contact with their father. Dr. Leedom also has this same issue, though her X is thank goodness been out of her life (in prison) but the effects of his damage continue on in her life.
Yes, the people here DO understand, and some of us here have multiple episodes of psychopaths in our lives, over generations. I am the child of one, and the parent of one. I have dated them, I have worked for them, I have been in partnerships with them, I have lived next door to one etc. Some damaged me more, some less, but just being around them is toxic and frustrating.
Again, WELCOME to LF! Hang around a while.
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 2:24pm
OxDrover says:
to your ps: I DO understand the frustration and the anger produced by being “smeared” and so many of us have had that happen that we call it the “smear campaign” sometimes it starts before the discard but almost always afterwards.
The “D&D” is Devalue and discard
The “Smear campaign” (you already know about)
“FOG” is the short for Fear, Obligation and Guilt, used to manipulate us
“Gaslighting” is twisting reality, named after a movie where a man was tryinjg to make his wife think she was crazy and drive her crazy
“TOWANDA” is the “war cry” from Friend green Tomatoes movie that we adopted here as a war cry and a “way to go” word!
Just a little “introduction” to the “vocabulary” we use here, and again, welcome. Stay around and participate! It helps to not be alone, even if you alone in the real world, unfortunately most of our friends and family may not totally “get it” about how difficult it is to get away from and heal from these monsters. We DO GET IT. And we have a wardrobe of Tee-shirts to prove it!
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 2:30pm
flowerpower says:
Thank you and I am familiar with most of the vocabulary listed. I have been educating myself since his hospitalization and Dx. And yes most folks just dont get it, until they “get it” personally from one of these types.
I LOVE TOWANDA!! and it is quitee appropriate since I am a southern born and bred fried tomato eatin’ woman..we are STEEL magnolias…Unfortunately the southern woman’s “submissive” stance kind of prolonged my situation.
My faith, children and love of life sustain me… and I will arm myself with knowledge to battle this out.
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 4:07pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Flower power,
Glad you are here and glad you are a steel magnolia! Cause that is what it takes, it is bones of steel and razor sharp minds to survive this fight and that is what it is, a fight to the death, even if it is emotional, not physical, “death.”
I laughed and laughed over this so many times, my egg donor is/was one of those “steel magnolias” and tried her best to get me to be one too, but I’m not sure why it never worked, but try as I might, I just couldn’t cram my “square soul” into that ROUND HOLE, so I sort of ended up being my own version of some kind of a strange “Flower” rather than the lovely but steel magnolia she intended me to be. Not that a steel magnolia is a bad thing, but it just wasn’t what I was meant to be. Tough yes, but more direct, and dancing to my own tune. So I ended up being “Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring” to use a Yankee phrase, but a very apt one!
It is only in these last few years that I have started to appreciate my own shape, neither round nor square, not fitting into a generic-shaped hole, and also realizing that DIFFERENT is not necessarily BAD.
Yea, that “submissive” cultural stance is sometimes a problem for us because though we are taught to be caretakers for others, and strong, if we stand up for ourselves, we are quickly beaten back down! Too many contradictions.
Again, Welcome! Glad you are here!
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 4:40pm
Donna Andersen says:
Flowerpower,
You may not have to get him to agree to Our Family Wizard. It can be court-ordered.
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 4:50pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
flowerpower – i can teach you to read ip addresses, so that you know where the email is coming from.
As long as they are not using a proxy server (most people don’t) or gmail, i can probably help you with this.
one step
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Friday, 19 March 2010 @ 4:58pm
flowerpower says:
Dear one step..
Love your name..so true! When I read your first sentence I was elated then read further. He has gmail, but may be able to change this by speaking with PC. The email privacy is a BIG issue at this time so changing emails could be mandated by him. Which service should I ask for?
Thanks Donna, I will go through PC who has court appointed power for this type of action. I dont know how many out there have this situation but it is extremely difficult to fight.
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Saturday, 20 March 2010 @ 11:44pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Flowerpower – Yahoo is a safe bet.
xo one step.
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Saturday, 20 March 2010 @ 11:45pm
ErinBrock says:
One….
Can someone see if your lurking on FB?
I was looking at IP info today…..if I do any recon…..I may want to go through a proxy huh?
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Saturday, 20 March 2010 @ 11:50pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
yup, a proxy server is best.
I am not sure if it is possible for a user to clllect ip info on fb or not, but personally i don’t trust THOSE fuckers either.
i think you can use PROXIFY for free if you are just surfing.
it’s 50. for 6 months if you want to be able to post on sites/ email.
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Saturday, 20 March 2010 @ 11:52pm
silvermoon says:
FB is one of the most commonly hacked sites.
You might download a copy of HIDEMYIP. I think they give you 14 days for free.
Then if you google search the name it takes you stright to FB.
In that case, you may not see a complete profile because they can block it from view except to “friends”
NO, I haven’t. Really…….(LOL!)
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Saturday, 20 March 2010 @ 11:57pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hehehe silvermoon.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:04am
ErinBrock says:
S posted more about me….
THE EVIL ONE!
He’s crying to someone he’s trrying to ‘land’ about his EX…..the evil one…..the bitch…..and how he’s really into god….
HMMMMMMM
This woman says to him…..I don’t appreciate your way of communicating….
YEAH FOR HER……she’s seeing his appaling love bombs…..
Of hey….you have a nice ass…..is it still as nice????
Uh,yeah……make my heart mealt……
Oh….wait till she sees the chick poster in his bedroom…..
Again….are we talking about a 15 year old here……NO 48~
YIKES….
RUN, RUN, RUN….
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:06am
silvermoon says:
so EB,
I have this recurring idea that if I put up a page that is all about my HUSBAND that if any woman he is trying to date does a name search on him she would pull up my page because we have the same last name and well, there might be quite a story there….. But I worry that may constitute slander….
So I thought about releasing his page address to everyone here to FRAUD bomb the fucker because it would be as much fun as a snowball fight.
But ultlimately, I think gambling on the internet is neither worthy nor good for a professional image and hope that just thinking about it will keep me laughing for a while…..
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:12am
flowerpower says:
While I am on the email topic..anyone know how the court views an EMAIL that falsely alleges criminal activity ( a felony).This was sent to me and I protect the privacy of all emails to make sure the children are not harmed.
This has also been verbally mentioned to the children, along with “your mother is crazy” etc..the infamous smear campaign which went on before the divorce has heated up now.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:16am
silvermoon says:
I’d ask an attorney if they’d be good evidence for getting a permant protection order.
I used one to do that once from a guy who threatended to kill my dog and I was asking for protection to keep him away from my son.
It worked.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:31am
ErinBrock says:
Keep EVERYTHING!!!!
Document, Keep, DOCUMENT…….
He may bury himself…and you’ll never need it…..but we should build the case by documentation as it comes in!!!!
If we ‘whine’ about everythign,as it happens…..we get tuned out…..but if we let the BIG BOMB drop at once….AFTER he has exposed himself……
WEll then……
So……stay under that rock like a snake…..gather up your warmth and get cozy……let him pass a few times……and when he least expects it…..he’ll trip and you can put your venom into him….and HE”LL NEVER KNOWIT WAS YOU WHO STRIKED…..because he was confident on that path!
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:32am
ErinBrock says:
Silvermoon:
Yah….I have those fantasies also….BUT….heres the catch…..
We don’t know what tomorrow holds…..and like in my s’s case…..he’s the one putting out this trash on FB……for the works to seee…..no privacy settings …….
I’m sure there are a few peeps that read it and promptly look for my site (Idont have one in my name)…..but if I did,and I yacked on and on about him……
NOW…..how would we both be percieved…….both crazy angry bitter…….
So…..sometimes it’s best to ‘take thehigh road’…….
and keep your mouth shut…..
I did this with my business……and look whos’ still in town with support…….NOT HIM!!!!!
It’s a great fantasy…..but don’t it……
I also saw on tv this am about peeps ‘fighting’ on fb…..couples and exs…….and they confirmed what I jsut said……your both looked at as nuts….
Sure, peeps may take one side oranother……but it’s ALWAYS TEMPORARY>…….
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:36am
one_step_at_a_time says:
yes, but there are many ways to have others do things for you that are untraceable. i say no more.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 12:40am
conomo says:
Please do tell… friend told me to get a gun today…been thinking about it … but think that would be shootin myself in the foot……
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 5:06am
conomo says:
Hey Soul Sister? I so liked him until I heard he was busted for pedophilia?? Some thing heinous any ways.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 5:11am
flowerpower says:
Hey one step…
its the untraceable things I fear will me done TO ME . Anyway you can share those so I will be warned????
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 10:25am
ErinBrock says:
Flowerpower:
Are you still with him?
If so….your ‘exit’ strategy would be different.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 10:26am
ErinBrock says:
Okay…
so……you must follow orders to a “T’. Don’t speak of him in town, only to your most trusted and loved friend.
You need to ‘know’ him…..know everything he would/could/should/ do and avert it.
DON”T PLAY ALONG……
You must bore him, act boring, non interested in anything he does/says speaks……
Just go along with orders and expect the same from him.
And in the meantime….document EVERYTHING in concise, well ordered manner.
He will not stop his behaviors until HE feels he has been rewarded….doens’t make it right, doesn’t make it easier.
He CAN”T RUN YOU OFF…..your not leaving……so take a big breath, try not to allow it to affect you, be aware of what he could do……and counter balance him………keep your character up in the community and stand tall and proud.
Look for any ’seeds’ you can plant along the way that would never be traceable to you….NEVER! Hold on to em and plant them as you see fit.
if you know any weak spots in his ‘armor’ hit em…..BUT DO IT ANONYMOSLY!
NOTHING CAN EVER BE TRACED BACK TO YOU!!!!
Do not speak poorly of him to your children, they will figure him out eventually.
TAKE THE HIGH ROAD…..at least in appearance….at all costs!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 1:39pm
flowerpower says:
Anyone here using a parenting coordinator? Would like to know how yours handles the problem maker. Our PC is court appointed and has not done much (at least to my knowledge) about the violations of our agreement.
I have set boundaries that restrict and prevent contact because of harassment in front of the children. Otherwise, the pc stays basically “neutral”, couching his language to keep from upsetting the ex.
Things have been quiet..but I do expect a bigger reaction if the same violations are repeated. Any others with this in place? I would like to know how obvious provable misbehavior is handled.
Our PC even asked me if we speak by phone after HE encouraged all communication by text or email. I found this strange…sometimes I’m not sure he is with the program. When I told him that I need the documentation; he said “not for me, I know what is going on”. I INSISTED that I NEED the documentation. Does this sound strange??
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Wednesday, 24 March 2010 @ 12:31am
jeannie812 says:
My kids are grown so I don’t have to deal with co-parenting anymore.
My ex-husband was a monster. I had the police remove him and I got a no contact order in early 1993 and we divorced in 1995. Why it took that long to get a court date is beyond me. I was upset about it. My attorney(s) dragged their feet with getting a court date. And my husband acted like I was still his property cause we were still married during this separation. During our divorce he used our kids as a weapon to beat me down.
I told my attorney what was going on. My attorney didn’t believe me, and said I am stuck on myself. I went through three attorneys cause they all sided with my husband.
I tried to tell the court what was going on. But, the court didn’t listen. The court looked hard at me instead.
My husband would use his visitation with kids to molest me. He would walk in my house and grope at my body parts. I’d tell him to get his damn hands off me. He would look hurt for a second, then he’d get angry. He got in my face and told me what he would do to me if I called the police. He said it would take the police a while to get there and that was enough time to “bash in your pretty face so no man will look at you”.
He told our kids that he was invited to a wedding. He told them how much fun they would have. Then he said that I had to buy them clothes to wear to this wedding (cause they live with me) and if I don’t they don’t go.
The kids came home excited about this wedding plan. They said I had to take them shopping for clothes for this wedding. I said no and the kids got upset and began yelling at me. Dad said you have plenty of money that you can take us shopping. (I was making minimum wage) He didn’t use the “child support card” cause he wasn’t paying it yet.
Eventually he was paying child support. He made a plan with the kids to spend a weekend at a fancy hotel with a indoor pool, whirl pool, steam room. He got their hopes up. And, then he dropped the bomb. He said I could pay for this hotel cause he pays me plenty of child support. The kids got upset when I said no. They said this plan depends on me paying for it, or they don’t go. I again said no. The kids got upset and began yelling at me.
On another day, he told the kids that he can’t take them anywhere on his weekend, that he has no money, cause he has to pay me child support. The kids came home to fight with me. The kids said I should stop the child support. I said he has to share the expense of raising you. It’s the law. Dad said you can tell the court to stop the support.
On another day, he told the kids that they can’t have fun on his weekend cause he has to pay my bills. He handed them these “so-called” bills to take home. The kids came home upset and yelling at me. They said Dad should not have to pay your bills, Dad has no money. Then they handed these “bills” to me. One piece of mail was junk mail. The other mail was forms from his insurance company from his work. Forms that he needed to fill out to put the kids on his medical at his work. Yep, he dumped his responsibility on me, while he got the kids to believe he is paying my bills. I believe he was pissed off cause the court had ordered him to put the kids on his medical. He had to pay extra for the family plan.
Then he told the kids that they did not have to help out with doing dishes at home. He said that “if she were any kind of mother she would do her own dishes”. (yet he would save a sink full of dirty dishes for the kids to do at his apartment on his weekend) He also said that they don’t have to help out with house work at home. He said “if she were any kind of mother she would clean her own house”. (Yet he expected them to help clean his apartment on his weekend) And, he said that they don’t have to help out with their little brother cause he is not their “real” brother. He is only a half brother.
He would call me and expect me to listen to him describing his new girlfriend’s body. I told him that I’m not listening to this. Does he want to talk to the kids or not? He said yes he wants to talk to the kids, “but first we need to discuss this like adults”! (discuss his girlfriend’s body) I hung up on him. He threw this in my face at court. He said “I can’t talk to her like an adult. She hangs up on me”!
Then he would call me and tell me that he’ll take me back… The way he put it: “Tell you what, I’ll take you back, but I expect this, this, and that. Take it or leave it!” I’d say I already left it and I’d hang up. He called me MANY, MANY times with this line. He also threw this in my face at court. He told the court “I can’t talk to her like an adult. She hangs up on me!”
I wanted to record his phone calls. He knew I was recording him. He loudly stated he did not want to be recorded. I didn’t know the laws so I stopped the recording. I just went along as the helpless victim.
My only “win” in all this nightmare was our house. I had to “buy him out”. I was supposed to pay him $8000 to get his name off the house. And, pay this money in a timely manner.
My husband said that if he has to rent, I have to rent, he said we have a 50/50 marriage. (he only had this sense of equal fairness when he didn’t have the upper hand)
The house needed numerous repairs that existed since we bought the house. I decided to prove the house wasn’t worth anything so I wouldn’t have to pay him. (paying out $8000 would have meant taking food out of our kid’s mouth for a decade or longer) I wanted the house to raise our kids. It was located in a nice, safe neighborhood. It was walking distance to the schools. The schools were great. The house was everything the kids needed. Three bedrooms, full size basement, two car garage, 2-story shed, nice size yard. And the mortgage was $650.00 a month. I couldn’t rent a tiny two-bedroom apartment for that price.
I called on numerous contractors to get bids.
I got numerous bids on the roof repairs, basement repairs, garage repairs, driveway repairs, I even got a bid on squirrel removal in garage. I accidentally threw away the low bids and saved the high bids for court. I got a sweet and kind real estate lady to come over and give me a quote. I told my story to her. She wrote up a letter on her company letter head that my house was worth less than the expense of the repairs, and that we would owe money at closing.
My attorney looked at my bids at court and asked why did I want this house? I said I will never regret living in this house. My kids are happy here, and they are in a safe neighborhood.
I did not have to pay my now ex-husband money.
My husband looked at the bids and said “Keep it”.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 5:09pm
kim frederick says:
Jeannie. It sounds like a nightmare. Thank God your kids are grown and the co-parenting is over. I’m curious, do the kids see him for what he is now?
So glad you got to keep the house!
And like I said before, I’m glad you’re here with us.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 5:33pm
jeannie812 says:
Hi Kim,
No, the kids say that their dad taught them that family sticks together. They seem to worship their dad and they don’t see that I did much of anything for them.
It used to hurt. I finally had to distance my heart, cause my ex has more influence over the kids.
I posted last night on here, but I don’t know how to view my posts.
Jeannie
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 7:53pm
shabbychic says:
jeannie812, hi
I found a post you wrote last night in the wee hours, you can type your user name in the search box at the top of the page, it will show a few recent posts. Glad you found this site, it has been a blessing to me. Here’s a link to the article you posted on…
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ment-68375
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 9:51pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
JEANNIE812- wow, he was a ‘peach.’ that’s not the word i really want to use. how twisted and sick. he’s a really good manipulator.
good job on the house! very good. you used a good strategy.
glad you found your way here. lots of really good articles. you seem to know exactly what he was doing in each of the instances you cited; your awareness is very high.
kathleen hawk wrote a very good series on healing. you can access it in the menu to the left.
take care
one step
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 10:12pm
jeannie812 says:
Hi one step,
Thank you for pointing out the sites to see. I may have already read her site. I read a bunch last night, and earlier today.
Wow, I was floored to be told that my awareness was high. Thank you!
It feels wonderful to have my thoughts validated. Thank you.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 11:11pm
jeannie812 says:
Hi ShabbyChic,
thank you for the welcome. Well here’s to clicking on that link. I’ll probably get goofed up into next week.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 11:15pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
jeannie812 – you are very welcome! you really called the manipulations and laid out the pattern and tactics. those are such important skills. they are steps on the way of being able to predict their behavior, disengage from it, and protect ourselves and others.
lots of mom’s here, there is lots of help for dealing with spath exes when children are involved.
have you read this article? think you might see some circular logic here that you recognize; http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ing-court/
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 March 2010 @ 11:19pm
jeannie812 says:
I read Steve’s post. OMG I really was with sociopaths. I could relate to most of it.
I didn’t post, cause everyone was having fun, and I didn’t want to spoil the mood.
My ex-husband demanded sex even when I was in late pregnancy (I was huge, I was carrying a 9 1/2 LB baby) and I was having problems because of the pregnancy. It hurt to sit, hurt to stand, I was beside myself, I hurt all the time, and felt sick all the time.
I was worn out. I couldn’t sleep cause I couldn’t get comfortable. I felt like cow laying on it’s back trying to upright itself. It hurt to lay on this side, hurt to lay on the other side. By the time I finally got comfortable, I had to pee! Than I had to start all over with getting comfortable, just to have to pee again and again! I was exhausted and had to take care of my lively small children all day, until their 8:00 PM bedtime.
Yet, he wanted his sex. He said he felt like I more like a sister and he wants a wife. He said put out, or he’ll go get it elsewhere. He kept demanding it even when it was bringing on false labor. The doctor said sperm can bring on false labor. Here I had small children to take care of, and I was in bed with false labor. Then he complained that the house was not clean enough. He told his family that the house isn’t clean, and they stared at me with an evil eye the next time they saw me.
It was so bad.
Jeannie
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 26 March 2010 @ 9:00pm
wakingup says:
Wow Jeannie,
I can kind of relate. When I was 8 months pregnant with our son, please excuse the graphic nature of this, but I lost my mucus plug because of rough sex that was not a choice by me, but of course him. I didn’t really mind sex so late in the pregnancy, but I did ask him several times to be a little gentler as it was more uncomfortable. Now the kicker was, as I found out months later, he had started another relationship with another woman when I was 7 months pregnant and was sleeping with both of us.
My other comment pertains to the wizard. Fast forward two years and I have left him. I have tried NC but as we all know it is so hard with children. Not that he gives a shit about the child, but we all know how that goes. Anyway, I am willing to give up and totally walk away from child support if he would just leave us alone. Not gonna happen. He has tried calling, texting, threatening, etc. and of course now I’m being slandered all over town for being vindictive, unable to move on, blah blah. The thing is, if this were really about our son which I suspect (I KNOW) it’s not, wouldn’t he just drag me into court and avoid the attempts at contact? I have responded to as few texts as I can, but I have made it clear that I don’t want my son around him. Wouldn’t a normal parent take the other one to court if it were really about the child? This to me is not about our son, but attempts on his part to insert his insane ass into my life as much as possible, and only because I asked him to leave me alone. He says he wants nothing to do with me, as he has moved on and is in love and Im going to puke…. but am i crazy or am I right? Is this a pathetic attempt to manipulate me? If hes so happy with his new relationship why would he rock that boat by contacting me instead of keeping it antiseptic and going through the legal system. There is free help available to fathers as well as mothers through public aid and he knows this, so why isn’t he utilizing these services?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 26 March 2010 @ 9:40pm
jeannie812 says:
Hi Wakingup,
Yes, your ex knows better. He likes to mess with you. He misses that power and control he had over you. That is what he is in love with.
I gotta ask what happened when you lost your mucus plug? Your water broke? Oh, my gosh I am so sorry.
My husband too was rough. He would jump on me like a dog on a tree.
I found it disgusting. I told him that he doesn’t want a wife, all he needs is a rubber doll.
I’m sure he was also with another woman, going by what he was telling me.
These guys could have harmed the baby with their reckless behavior. They could have planted STD’s in us while we were pregnant. They induced labor with their recklessness.
My labor also came after a night of his rough sex. I went into hard labor at 5:00 am. Baby was born at 7:00 am.
Scary thing about that is I wasted the first hour. I thought it was more false labor. I didn’t want to wake him. It would have pissed him off, if I was waking him for nothing, and then he would have ignored me, if it became real. So I made sure it was real labor before I woke him.
I woke him. We had to pick up his mother so she could watch our kids, and bring her over to our apartment, this took over a half hour. His mother acted offended that I wasn’t friendlier. I was walking while in hard labor, doing the breathing exercises, and couldn’t comment if my life depended on it.
He took me to the hospital. He ran every red light. It freaked me out. I said obey the law, this is stressing me out! He ignored me and continued running red lights.
We got to the hospital. I could barely talk or walk because of the hard contractions. I found out that my husband had never registered me (even though the hospital told him to months before.)
He had smiled at them and agreed eagerly. But he did nothing.
So here I had to register myself while I was in hard labor. Of course he didn’t sit down to take care of this. He disappeared. He reappeared around the corner after I took care of business.
Baby was born about 20 minutes later.
Your ex-guy is not done with you. He is all over you. He is all over the town about you. He is using his/your own child in a attempt to control you.
He doesn’t bother with the court, cause he is not interested in the child.
He just wants to make you miserable.
Beware that in time he might approach the court. But, this will be a last ditch effort to get his hooks in you.
I’ve been there.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 26 March 2010 @ 11:19pm
wakingup says:
Jeannie,
Yes its 2:30 am but im up giving my son a breathing treatment and saw that you responded.
When the plug came out labor didnt begin for another 3 weeks so we were fine, but my ex wasn’t even there on the day the baby was born because he was with his girlfriend. He had lied to her and told her that we were not together and that I had gotten pregnant on purpose to “trap” him…. what a line of shit. Who’s the one who was trapped? He was living a double life, one with me and one with her. He would actually be with her and come home to me in the middle of the night claiming he had been at work. Puke. He had her convinced that I was an evil bitch and they actually sat down together on the computer to look up births at the hospitals to see if our child had been born. He didn’t tell her he came to the hospital the next day to play doting daddy, sign the birth certificate, put on a show for the nurses, etc.
And now here we are. I left for good only 7 weeks ago and he has not seen our son since. I have prevented this although like I said he is aware of what he could do if this were really an issue. You’re right, he just wants to make me miserable and he’s doing a great job. His girlfriend, whom he moved into MY house in lightning speed time has been pushing him to take me to court so that “they” can have my son in “their” lives. I suspect she has no idea how much he’s been trying to contact me by phone, he erases the calls and texts before going home to her if memory serves and he hasn’t changed.
I just wanted to say that its nice knowing someone out there understands and to have a reminder that Im not crazy, HE IS.
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Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 2:45am
wakingup says:
Oh by the way, said current girlfriend is not the same woman he was with when our son was born. However, he was sleeping with this one at the time as well. There was a time when he would actually be with all three of us in the same day… hindsight of course, but makes me absolutely sick
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Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 2:48am
silvermoon says:
Waking Up,
Kudos for what you have done to the benefit of yourself and your son. In the long run, you will thrive for having left.
I can’t help but be amazed at the behavior of these men! Mine is writing love letters from jail while I have found out that he was legally married and dating a number of other women during our relationship….The one that ended in marriage.
I can not fathom that he does so after serving me the most insideous insults a man can deliver to a woman and when I read your story, it touched that last core nerve.
It does indeed tell, the worst. The abso;ute worst. These people go through the world victimizing others and they have done to you and me and us all here.
I can not help about all the other women who aren’t here who had the same experience of believing and loving these monsters just the way we did. There was a time I thought I was the only one and that we were in love. I knew I was.
By the grace, those days are past. Any time in life when one of these deceptions is brought to ground is a good day because it is the first step toward a healthy, meaningful life.
Thank you for your story as all of the stories remind us to keep on, encourage us that we are not crazy and connect us so in this community we become strong enough to not be lured back by any false promise.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 8:07am
OxDrover says:
Dear Silvermoon,
Maybe you should save these letters and have a “share” party with his other wife(wives) and GFs and each one can bring a love letter and you can all share and compare and then take a group photo to send him in jail!
I do suggest that you might all want to think about getting STD checks for everything, wait 3 months and repeat x 2. A group of women in Texas had a guy that did that stuff and gave I think it was 6 or more of the MIV,, they ended up banding together and putting him in prison for 45 years for KNOWINGLY INFECTING THEM. Each woman thought she was the ONLY one. There was a great TV special about it and there is a link here to him I think as well (CRS!)
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 2:35pm
silvermoon says:
Ox,
Awesome idea. I actually started communicating with his lawful wife. We have taken the first step in the directions.
Don’t think the idea of a class action pursuit hasn’t crossed my mind. Nor has the notion of pursuing all the inspection that follows his being diagnosed as a disordered person and marked forever on for it. As I understand it, there are laws that provide for this.
There is also the bigamy thing and the financial recovery which is allowed by law.
Run him down like a dawg? You bet. Like a lying HOUND DAWG!
Cry over sad songs that take me back to the fantasy? Yeah, I do. Less now than a while ago. And therapy and EMDR help with that a lot. And coming here to get more of the stories and to encourage others to stay on the path of getting free of these animals.
I think a personal appearance in court would make an even stronger statement………………….
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 2:55pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
This has been a hard couple of weeks. I needed help and requested and didn’t get medication, as I could see bad coming and it just keeps coming. It scares me.
how I feel scares me. wanting to hide under the bed scares me. melting down and having to walk away from a conference scares me. I need authenticity. Trying to continue on and sew on my game face – it’s not working. I am constantly a few minutes away from not being able to function in a business environment. I am not able to do all the things necessary to find work here. And doing the best I can is a shifting ability. And it is becoming a shifting disability.
I am angry that everything is so hard. I am tired and fed f**king up. I have to go meet some friends – for my bday dinner. I hope I have fun. I feel very disconnected. My life has really shattered. What was, is no more. I cannot relate to people in the same way – I cannot stand hiding how I really feel. As much as my friends don’t understand or want to engage, I am starting to not want to engage with them.
There have been times here – in the last few weeks, when the people who can stand in the face of my pain, stand with me have literally saved me. it’s the not being able to be as I am in the world that makes it so hard.
I have left a message for a pastor who works at the military base here, to find out if they have any resources for civilians with PTSD. I have to go somewhere where I can ‘normalize’ this pain and stress. I am trying to find ways – but none of it is happening fast enough to staunch this oncoming flood – my stress levels just keep going up. I guess I could go to the hospital and ask for a pysch exam – that would speed things up. I don’t want to go through these months of pain as the powers that be align themselves. I don’t feel I have the time – the worse things get, the worse they will get and the easier it will be to go here again. I don’t want that. I don’t want to waste my life crumbling, as it is a waste, and it will become harder to get out of it the more I go there. Nuero pathways.
All best,
one step
p.s. I am not suicidal; I believe in life so deeply, so fundamentally. I am feeling trapped.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 3:19pm
silvermoon says:
One Step-
Contact an EMDR provider and see if you are a candidate for it. Its a therapy that works quickly, isn’t too outrageously expensive and is successful in treating trauma and PTSD.
Don’t forget to breathe!
You are going to be ok. Remember a hard day bespeaks a better one.
Now, cowboy up and have fun on your special day.
We’ll be right here.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 3:24pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
silvermoon – I have used EMDR. Not sure if there is a good practitioner in this town. Regardless, I do not have the $ resources for paid therapy. When I used it about a decade ago to move through some trauma, it was $100 a visit.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 3:41pm
silvermoon says:
I’m right here.
Hang in there.
This too shall pass.
Wish there was more. but what I can, I am here to do.
happy day!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 March 2010 @ 4:37pm
ErinBrock says:
ONE:
You need to weigh the consequences……
I totally….understand your need!
But it seems to be taking a very pricey toll on you…..PLEASE…give this some thought…
I hope you had fun with your friends tonight and got those 50 candles you were hoping for!!!
Happy Birthday darlen!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 12:14am
one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – well, it’s out there in the universe now, and i’ll see if it comes to me, cause sweetie i can’t go to it. i have to pay rent and it is the food bank next week. there is NO money. remember a while ago i said i had boots and sandals and no shoes? – that wasn’t a style choice. EMDR (and I checked tonight) is now $140 a visit and it would take a few visits.
dinner with friends was VERY fun. we played board games – we laughed a lot. they made me a creme caramel (friend who hosted is a pastry chef), so no candles, but a fiend showed up with the five-zero kids candles and cup cakes yesterday, and i got about the best card i have EVER seen. and i got to spend the a few hours at the conservation area yesterday. going to that that place has held me together for the last couple of years.
tonight was pretty good.
i did feel a bit disconnected, but not nearly as bad as i expected to.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 1:09am
ErinBrock says:
One…no, I wasn’t referring to EMDR….I’m not even sure what that is??
Or stands for……
I was referring to your ‘plot’….and the toll that may be taking on you….
I’m glad you were with friends….it’s importand and a good tonic!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 1:24am
one_step_at_a_time says:
ah, okay. i don’t think that is it. actually i think waiting this long has taken a toll on me.
i have been like this since fake he fake died. it’s just gotten worse. and as the other stressors mount (money, work health), it’s gotten worse.
i had some structure before, and a paycheck and it was grindingly hard to meet my obligations – i had to work hours of over time to meet my time lines.
and i do ask myself this question, and i do listen for answers. and i will keep on doing that. i never hear much, beyond, ‘ do it’.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 1:32am
ErinBrock says:
I TOTALLY understand…..this need….I do, I do…..
But I wanted to ‘remind’ you of the ‘gain’ vs ‘cost’.
That’s it…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 1:52am
ErinBrock says:
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 March 2010 @ 2:00am
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
I’m pleased that I’ve stumbled upon your blog and website, OurFamilyWizard! We need to learn new tools, develop fresh attitudes, and start forming co-parenting teams to enhance all our lives. Our parents in split-families and broken homes need to be given a chance to raise kids who thrive without being encumbered by the emotional battlefield that has become normal once parents no longer live together. We need to change tack in our parenting methods and styles, and we need new strategies that work when our children and teens are living between two homes and diverse cultures inside what they call their own family.
Great blog and website, OurFamilyWizard, we will be looking into your website offering in more detail, as we (Complex Family) operate in a complimentary market – focusing on support for families touched by separation, divorce, or some form of family breakdown.
Complex Family understands the complications, and the uniqueness of split-family parenting (parenting beyond separation or divorce), when we no longer live together – and we are here to walk beside parents throughout the journey. And OurFamilyWizard appears to be a complimentary service that we could promote to our customers to make life easier!
Jill Darcey
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Sunday, 25 July 2010 @ 9:06pm
ErinBrock says:
Hi Jill:
Welcome to LF.
I do want to point out one MAJOR issue that differentiates the coparenting issues.
Coparenting with someone the demostrates Cluster B personality disorders is a totally different ‘ball game’ than with a ‘traditional divorced parents.
Yes there is anger and feeling of betrayal in a split up, but coparenting with someone who is not capable of empathy and compassion towards ANYONE is impossible. When one party demostrates these behaviors, it’s only ‘buying’ time through a childs younger years.
A healthy parent has no control over the alienation and lies the toxic parent displays continuously. Life is only about power and control to them, punishments and awards and wins.
In order to raise healthy children in a two (separate) parent environment, it takes cooperation, self control and discipline (of the parents)…..and the 2 persons believing in the value and health and wellbeing of the children.
If one person see’s the children as their ‘trophies’, tools and prizes,……its a barrier that can’t be pushed down.
It’s not just about not living together…..it’s about abuse, staying safe, keeping the kids emotionally healthy and protected, so they have a chance at future.
“Parents are parents – typically doing the best with all we have.” This statement is again, fine when dealing with ‘normal’ conflicts and emotions of traditional divorces. NOT with a disordered personality.
My children were kidnapped, lied to, manipulated, stalked, harassed (directly AND indirectly) abused (physical and emotional), split and alientated from all extended family, exposed to drug environments, fed drugs….forced to do illegal acts for their father, used as a front and a cover for illegal activities, lies and deciet etc…..
HE exposed this all to them……THEY saw it all and disapproved BEFORE I EVEN KNEW WHAT WAS GOING ON. They lived it, they hated it and they were expected and told…..NOT to tell your mother, or it will be the end of our family. THEY want nothing to do with their father.
We have had 2 stalking and harassment orders extended and 3 TPO’s extended………the latest last month….my eldest (18) has filed his own!
Please tell me……How do I co-parent from there? This person is disordered and NOT a normal healthy person. I believe he is a sociopath and have been told such by his psychologist….yet undiagnosed…b.ecause he bolted prior to the heat getting hotter on him.
It sounds great to be able to coparent in split family relationships, and I greatly admire those who achieve this (and I most certainly DO believe healthy coparenting Can be achieved in ‘most’ split families)…..but I can guarentee you……NONE of those split families are dealing with a sociopath in this mix!
I have always maintained…..If I could wave a magic wand over the spath and ‘make’ him a decent human being for his children…..TO THIS DAY, I would! Not perfect……just the father any child deserves.
It was not my wish to have it end like this……my kids do NOT have a father……they have a sperm donor who has attempted to destroy them. THAT IS NOT A FATHER!
BTW……I think your site is very informative. And I also think it could benefit from some research on co-parenting with a Cluster B personality disordered person……valuable infomation!!!!
Thanks
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 25 July 2010 @ 10:07pm
Buttons says:
EB – precisely. Spath does not – DOES NOT – have the best interests of the child(ren) in mind, EVER.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 25 July 2010 @ 10:29pm
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
Hi there Erin,
I sincerely agree with you; parenting with a cluster B personality disorder parent (or any serious disorder for that matter) is totally different to traditional split family parenting.
While we have a resident Psychologist on our team, unfortunately we are not setup to cater (at this stage) for parents in this situation. This is an extremely specialised and delicate situation (as you’re well aware) and requires extensive experience to assist, guide and support parents and families in these types of situations.
You and your children have certainly walked a very challenging path, and by the sounds of things, admirably in the face of adversity!
My post was acknowledging OurFamilyWizard.com’s website services, which may assist and compliment our services for (traditional) split-family parents, single parents, or co-parenting situations.
In situations with our clients, whereby parents are able to communicate with the other parent (not necessarily constructively), or a parent has passed away, or a parent is in jail etc, then we focus on assisting and teaching the children’s cooperative/remaining parent to teach their children the necessary tools to cope and deal with their new life situation. We firstly focus on teaching the cooperative/remaining parent tools to assist themselves to adjust to their own new life situation, and to improve it one day at a time; as parents can only be of significant benefit to their children if they themselves are in a loving and healthy space, enabling them to ‘give out of an abundance’ to their children – as opposed to from an ‘empty well’.
The best that we can typically do (as parents) is to focus on teaching our children how to identify and heal the hurts and scars they are living with. We can also only ever have the best relationship that we can with anyone … and sometimes that may have to be solely within ourselves (eg. the other party is deceased, mentally ill, in jail etc) in the form of acceptance (not condoning) and forgiveness in ourselves (again, not condoning the actions of another).
Thank you for your feedback about our website – and I will certainly pass this onto our Psychologist for his consideration, with the goal of posting information on our website to assist parents in similar situations to yours.
Warmest,
Jill Darcey
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 3:30am
OxDrover says:
Jill, you won’t find any “normal divorced co-parenting couples” here–we are all dealing with SERIOUS issues of abuse and survival, not just who gets junior for Christmas and who for Christmas eve. I am afraid you won’t find any “traditional” split family parents here.
The reason that Ourfamilywizard is or could be helpful to co-parenting with a psychopath is that it gives a timed undeniable log of what was said and when which can be used in court. Psychopaths are pathological liars and this is very necessary.
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 3:44am
ErinBrock says:
Hi Jill;
I’d be very interested in getting your resident Psych’s views on Cluster B’s.
One of the very frustrating issues we face, is the amount of professional’s who don’t ‘get it’, and offer guidance without fully understanding ‘our’ situations.
This goes from the medical profession to the legal profession.
To protect our children fully, it is essential we have a ‘team’ of professionals who ‘getit’.
I, fortunately, had a therapist who ‘got it’…..but i’m not so sure it was right away. He evolved with me weekly. I would bring in literature and we’d devise a plan of protection.
As time and the ‘ante’ grew, the spath was very predictible in his actions and claims. My therapist, after being shocked into not being shocked any further…….saw my approach in exposing the spath in the legal system, to protect my children legally and we councelled on keeping the balance.
My approach was harsh, hard and straight forward. I call it ‘backspath’. I used the sociopaths behaviors back on him. i didnt’ defend wild accusations, I went on offense.
Fortunately, my kids were in their teens and NOT young. Otherwise, I think he may have been able to grip them with his activities and abuse.
My kids suffer from PTSD and showed signs of ’stockholm syndrom’ when they were kidnapped. (gone 3.5 months).
Society needs more professionals willing to ‘get involved’ and educate and help others with the realities of Cluster B’s.
Medical AND legal. Lf has several professionals who have ‘lived’ the hell of a Sociopath and offer us food for thought.
It’s like finding a needle in a haystack to identify a professional who ‘get’s it ‘ and can offer US some guidance in the real world.
In the meantime…..those of us in this situation WILL continue to do whatever in our power to keep our kids and ourselves safe…….
Thanks Jill……I hope you do delve into this ’side’ of the coparenting spectrum.
Keep us posted.
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 12:13pm
www.ComplexFamily.com says:
Hi OxDrover … yes, I appreciate that now – and hence my post to Erin clarifying my initial post was responding to the merits of OurFamilyWizard.com’s services to compliment our particular services.
Unfortunately my post was inappropriately placed when commenting on predominantly typical split family parenting scenarios (ie. not the serious disorders, abuse or survival issues being addressed on this site) … and for this I sincerely apologise – my post would have been far more appropriately placed on OurFamilyWizard’s website.
Erin, I will be catching up with our Psych regarding Cluster B’s and serious disorder situations next week. And I completely agree with you, society most definitely needs far more professionals willing to get involved, assist and guide those living through these horrific realities. An alarming increase in numbers of children (and parents) are affected by seriously dysfunctional and disturbing adult behavior, which in turn frequently self-perpetuates into our next generation, leaving our children with little hope of growing into healthy adults.
In closing, while I have walked a path of raising 3 children in a split-family for over 10 years, parenting with a sociopath is not a path that I have walked, nor can I comprehend the magnitude of your situations. Therefore, as one parent to another, I can only offer my most sincere, compassionate and loving thoughts to you, Erin, OxDrover, and others participating in this LF group.
Warmest,
Jill
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 6:32pm
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
I don’t think it was a coincidence you found LF.
Ourfamilywizard is a wonderful tool for all coparenting situations….and as Oxy stated above, we have ‘tapered’ it to suit our needs aswell.
These personatlity disorders are slick in the courtroom, and when ordered to coparent with a sociopath EVERYTHING must be documented. Personal emails are used to harass, phone calls exploited and this leaves the ‘victim’ and coparent open for more abuse.
For those involved in Cluster B personality disordered relationships/coparenting…..OFW is a valuable tool. A tool which a child advocate, the judge and attorneys’ can monitor. If one party uses it to harass or threaten, it’s right there……If one party said they weren’t notified of an event…..it’s right there….
It shows log in, from what computer and who…..and all content.
It’s WONDERFUL! And highly recommended.
I hope you take this clandestine opportunity to educate yourself about Sociopaths and Cluster B personality disorders and the severe damage and destruction they flail around….to children…..their smallest victims.
You can find all sorts of articles here, along with Lf bloggers personal experiences in comment form.
It will give you a well rounded insight into what we live with and survived……
Sociopaths make up 1-4% of the population…..they are ALL around us….
Every single person who can educate themselves, and in turn speak to others, will aid in shutting down the Sociopathic hellish behavior, and quite possibly save a life along the way.
Sociopaths are our neighbors, parents, children, partners, lawyers, Dr’s, teachers, preachers, local cop, babysitters and uncles, coaches, friends, inlaws and the list goes on…..NONE OF US ARE IMMUNE!!!
I think you landed here for this education, I hope you take advantage of this opportunity.
I congratulate you for raising and coparenting successfully with your ex. This alone is a large accomplishment…..but better yet…..a huge gift to your beautiful children. Wonderful!!!
I look forward to the input from your psych and his/her recommendations and thoughts on this subject.
Again…..Welcome to LF….I trust you find the information here helpful.
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 6:48pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
“reasonable people” even dysfunctional ones, are able to co-parent with a minor amount of problems. Like ErinB said, you have an opportunity to learn about the ones who are NOT the reasonable ones, even dysfunctional ones but the TOXIC ones that use their children as battering rams to injure the other co-parent with, totally careless of the damage done to the children.
About 75% of domestic abusers are psychopaths, so there are more than a few psychopaths involved in divorce. It is common for psychopaths to have multiple sexual relationships and many children scattered around, many times uncared for, or used as poker chips in the game of “life.”
There is no “treatment” or “therapy” that is able to help the psychopath, only therapy and help for the victims—who many times are so wounded and broken they are in dire straights.
I suggest that you start by reading Dr. Robert Hare’s “Without Conscience” and look at LF’s list of books as well as the book reviews here on LF among the articles.
I have NO doubt that when you start learning about psychopaths you will come to a point when you say “AH HA!!!! That sounds just like X” and by having this knowledge you will be better able to help your own clients, by validating them when they are dealing with a psychopath. Lack of validation from our families and our friends, co workers and therapists is a big problem with victims of Psychopaths. The “Oh, it’s just a divorce, get over it and get on with your life.” People who have not dealt with a psychopath have no idea what devastation their attacks can leave.
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Monday, 26 July 2010 @ 7:58pm
chinagirl says:
Hi! I am new here…I just wrote a profile and not sure if I was to put a “mini” story on my profile but that is what I did.
I am so grateful to have found you. I have been pretty alone the past five years post divorce from what I now know to be a sociopath and narcissist. I was married for 7 years….he was married before me and then got married a third time 5 months after our divorce. We have a little girl who is 9 and he is using her on this battlefield. I am desperate to learn more, to understand more and figure out how to take better care here because I am sinking. He has a lot of money, a little power, some credentials that make him high profile in his town and once I left my friends, my church, everyone abandoned me. He was abusive and controlling, obviously!, and he raped me…even that didn’t force me to leave. I didn’t want to get divorced…but when I read the words discard on your site I thought, yep, that is what he did. use me and discard me. I couldn’t have kids and we adopted, but he was the golden boy of his family and I was the “uterus”. I overheard his grandmother two years after we married and after 4 miscarriages say to him, “Honey, she is to fing old”. I about died. The family was as abusive to me as he was and his anger towards women stems from his mothers abuse but he is too afraid of her to face that. So, initially he talked about his first wife our entire marriage and now I am the topic. He lies and slanders me, he has called people I dated, called my employer, called my landlord, called my brother who is a mental health nightmare and when my mother died recently he accused me of stealing her medications! He didn’t even say I am sorry. But that is where I am naieve…why would he say that? When his grandmother died, the one who said I was too old, I called him and offered condolences…But as you probably know I could go on and on and on. The things he has done to “destroy me” (his words “I will destroy you”) have been insidious…slow and hard to believe. Attorneys, therapists, friends who are therapists…no one understands this. They are all thinking that I must be doing something wrong for this to still be happening five years after divorce. it is just getting worse. I lost my job because of him (and there is a pending lawsuit for that because I had never had one bad report a work) and lost custody of my daughter….there is no reason for that but the fact he is a schmoozer, the strong silent type, but if you look in his eyes you will see the evil. I think you know what I mean? But people think he is a god….they believe what he says. He uses his credentials and also lives in a small town so he is big fish, little pond, big man on campus kind of guy…He told me I would never leave him and it felt like a threat. I remember at the end feeling sucked dry…like I was a skeleton of what I once was…and 2 weeks after leaving him I lost 20#, felt so happy and alive, a huge weight off my shoulder, I felt like myself again. Then the nightmare really began. I had no idea what I was in for and up against. My attorney asked me if I thought he would seek custody. I said no! He told me the last year of our marriage that my daughter and I would have one night a week with him and the “rest of the days are mine” so I fugured he’d be thrilled I was leaving and leaving with my daughter. I had no idea he would do something so evil…ripping her away from another mother when for four years we were together 24/7. My poor daughter kicked and screamed and spit and scratched at him and he watched, blank and feelingless as she did this and would grab her and put her in his car. He wouldn’t even say hi to her. This is not about me being an unfit mother. He would even say, when we were married, that I was a great mom and his father would always tell me that…this is about him needing to save face and be able to look in the mirror and be ok. Because two women left him means there is something wrong with him. I wonder deep down if he knows this…I think he does. He used to say he was a “miserable man” but maybe that was another smoke screen. He was good with smoke and mirrors, especially when it came to money. I remember feeling about 4 years into the marriage that he led a dual life but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I couldn’t put my finger on a lot of things….so much didn’t make sense. I am hoping I will get some answers here and find a way to get my life back. I am so depressed and sad and feeling like I am losing everything. I feel hopeless and helpless and I know I am a strong woman. I just can’t take this on any more. My mom just died, too and there has just been so many losses. Another death in the family a few years ago and a job loss and I lost my house because after everything settled I had paid out 90K in attorney fees. Everytime I think this can’t get worse it does! Please tell me I will come back out of this! I don’t want to wait until my daughter is 18 to see her again….that is the last part…I live 2 1/2 hours away and he got the judge to make me drive there to see her and see her supervised! For no reason. The story is unreal. He has a live in nanny, 3 more kids from his 3rd wife and I know that he just didn’t want to drive my daughter to our meeting place any more…he lost one nanny and another one and now has a third one so she probably won’t do the drive, who knows…but the thing is he continues to get what he needs and I am losing my mind! Thank you for listening to such a long post. I am desperate.
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 5:46pm
chinagirl says:
Just reading ErinBrock above about the legal, medical and mental health professions not understanding personality disorders. This is true. I am new here but I am also a therapist. I just finished grad school 2 years ago and feel great that I did so well during all of this hell. My practice focuses on treating addicted professionals but I also do a lot of work with women and after going through what I have been through, (although I need a lot more healing in this area and more knowledge) I want to get to a place where I can help other women who have gone through this. Because I can’t find a therapist who gets what I have endured and am tired of hearing “just move forward” I am going to learn as much as I can and devote myself to changing this issue. However, I need to heal first!
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 5:56pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I am so sorry that you have endured such a harassment and abuse and that your daughter is taken away from you. It is the power he can use to hurt you, not that he cares for the child. All I can suggest for you at this moment is to just go see her as often as you can and tell her you love her no matter how far away you are.
The psychopaths hurt us just to enjoy their power, and it sounds like your P has driven you into the dirt to the extent possible.
I am glad that you found Lovefraud, this is a safe, educational and supportive place where you will be believed and will have comfort.
Knowledge is power, keep on reading as many as you can of the older and archived articles. Some of them may not resonate with you yet, but as you heal most of them will resonate with you.
Healing takes time, focus and energy and heavy on the TIME. Hang in there, and focus on getting better…focus on looking at the htings you DO have rather than at the things you don’t have. Change the things you can, and accept those things you can’t change. ((((Hugs)))) Again, welcome! and God bless.
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 6:02pm
OxDrover says:
ps Chinagirl,
Many people on here are professionals, medical or mental health, and almost everyone here is very bright and successful…it seems that the psychopaths target those of us with a great deal of empathy. There are other things that “we” have in common, just as “they” have many things in common.
I also think that many if not most of us want to help others who are in similar shape as we have been due to the abuse we have endured.
Check on Dr. Liane Leedom’s blog “raising the at-risk child” and also her book “Just like his father.”
You are right that many professionals DON’T GET IT and that is a darned shame, but Donna is working on educating a lot of people and will be on TV on the Discovery channel this week, and others have written and published books, spoken out in various forums etc. about this and so the word is ever (slowly) expanding on this disorder.
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 6:06pm
chinagirl says:
Dear OxDrover,
thank you for the welcome, the support and encouragement..I can feel the ‘love’ here…and it is a blessing. I feel like I have been spinning for five years and hopefully now things can change. What good advice “focus on what you do have and not what you don’t have” I have been in victim, poor me mode a lot lately especially after the recent decision by judge…It just makes me feel as if something is wrong with me when I know that there isn’t!
I can feel the empathy throughout here….I remember day three into marriage alreading having a “UH OH, who did I marry” feeling. Shoulda, coulda, woulda…..you know? ! Thanks again for the welcome.
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 6:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I honestly think this blog saved my life. I’ve been here nearly 3 years and have no intention of going anywhere. This is the AA group meeting for former victims. We change from victims to victors, from mush into steel.
There is just so much great information here and I recommend to everyone new that you read the articles (about 700+) but leave the comments on them for later. For now just read and read and read. Some of them won’t resonate right away, but I go back through them from time to time and re-read them and get meaning out of ones that didn’t resonate before.
I’ lost my husband in an accident 6 years ago and have been in crisis mode pretty much ever since, with a big case of PTSD as well, and a continual crisis with a P-son (he is in prison for murder) and just couldn’t get out of that VICTIM mode. Only the last couple of years have I started to heal, to see my way out of the FOG (fear, obligation and Guilt) to discard the psychopaths in my life (the son, an X boy friend, a psychopath by proxy my maternal DNA donor, etc. etc.–long list) That stress that they put on us,a nd that then we put on ourselves is way too heavy to carry and we have to emotionally and physically rest from that state. Do holmes and Rhe’s stress schedule and see where you rank. I hit the max, times 3-400%! That stress is not good for us, causes burn out so make the most of your life, the things you do have.
Start making a list of them. Start out with “I have enough clean water to drink every day” and go from there. Read the NYTimes and see how fortunate you are to have that ONE blessing. How many people don’t have that blessing? A great many people on this planet don’t have that blessing.
When I get to feeling sorry for myself, I try to count those blessings and concentrate on even one of those blessings and I feel pretty RICH when I do. ((((Hugs)))) and God bless! Glad you are here!
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 7:19pm
chinagirl says:
Hi OxDrover,
Thanks again! I am so sorry for your losses and struggles. You appear to definitely have gone from mush to steel. Thank you, too, for helping me figure out what to do next. Sometimes we just need someone to hold our hand and say do this…and then do that…i am at that point and will do what you have suggested. It reminds me of when we went to china to adopt our daughter….our agency was great and i felt like a kindergarten class on a rope….letting them lead the way. It was actually a relief to not have to be in charge…just wanted my daughter! Didn’t want to have to make sure things went smoothly in a country I didn’t speak the language at all. (Although I made a valiant effort! I still can basically only say Shae Shae and NiHao!)
I look forward to an lifting journey from here on out. I think I have exhausted my catecholamines and am just blank. My brother is colluding with my ex and he is messed up mentally. I am not sure he is a sociopath because I think he used to have empathy but something has happened to him as well….he rages after my father who has alzheimer’s and with my ex calling and them working together I have been dealing with family fights since my mom’s death and custody of my father…my father begged me to get a restraining order on my brother and I tried and since I am from out of their state the entire thing backfired on me and I was swirling around in that mess as well. it is unbelievable and I’d begin to think there was something wrong with me if I didn’t have a couple of friends I have known for 25 years that know I am the sane one in that group of “relatives”. I just want both my father and my daughter back. As I said earlier, i think it can’t get worse but yet it does. Now, however, I want to stop the madness and take action…or maybe not take action but work smarter. I have been working with my emotions which has caused me more problems. I wish i could do a lot of this over but I am here now and will be reading and learning and listening. Thank goodness for you all. Thanks again for the advice and insight.
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 8:36pm
Hopeforjoy says:
Chinagirl,
So sorry to hear about your circumstances. I want to offer you my sympathy about your mom passing. You have had way too much adversity in such a little amount of time. There are some wonderful people on LF who have alot of knowledge about sociopaths and narcissists. Erin Brock has great legal advice and Oxdrover is warm and sensitive and will offer a practical point of view. Many people here will support you and listen with an open heart and mind.
What you have gone through is like believing the impossible, but we believe you. The spath/narc just wants to win and your ex is doing all he can so you don’t win, even if it is at the expense of your daughter. Just keep letting her know how much you love her and don’t give up the fight. Even if your ex has won this battle it doesn’t mean that all is lost. His current wife will eventually figure him out as well.
Take care and stay strong!
Hope4joy
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 8:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Sounds like you have had a PLATE FULL AS WELL!!! That family game of “ring around the rosey” is awful too. I came up in a family of origin that was dysfunctional to the max, so a lot of the enabling etc seemed “normal” to me—all the drama and so on. I finally figured out it wasn’t and so in the end, I lost both my biological sons, one a psychopath and the other not a psychopath but dysfunctional none the less, I do have a wonderful adopted son, however, and he is my rock.
I can bet your daughter is going to be a very smart young lady if you got her from China, so don’t give up on her seeing the light before this is all said and done.
Lowering the stress level in your own life will help you, and it takes TIME for our bodies to overcome that long term stress over load. I’ve had a pretty good spell of peace for most of the last ocuple of years and can tell that the PEACE is actually starting to feel “normal now” though the only way I can tell that I am not really stressed now is that if I AM stressed I melt down and can feel literally getting physically ILL from the stress. It does go away sooner now. I don’t STAY super saturated with the stress hormones any more.
I sort of “had it out” with my oldest bio son in The New Year of Dec Jan when I caught him lying to me—about something insignificant, but none-the-less, I do NOT tolerate ANY LIES from anyone, he knew that, he chose to lie to me, and I enforced the boundary. He is not welcome at my house any more. I communicate with him by short, business like e mails on things we must communicate about, and that is all I will communicate with him. His life is his own.
You might say that’s pretty “tough consequence” for one small “white lie.” Nah, it isn’t about THAT one small white lie it is the 1,000 before that PLUS the “one small white lie.” He knew that in advance, and chose to lie, so now he can have the consequence. It hurts me as well, because I would choose for him NOT to disrespect me by lying to me, but it wasn’t MY choice. It was HIS choice.
They have choices and we have choices. I am glad though that your daughter is NOT his biological child. At least you are better off genetically since she doesn’t have his genes! I think the “success rate” of the girls adopted from China is very good as far as them being bright, and genetically healthy. It isn’t like the kids coming out of Romania and Russia that are physically starved, emotionally detached, fetal alcohol, etc. I know there are people who can handle some of those kids, but God bless those that can. One of my cousins adopted a child with fetal alcohol, and she knew in advance and has had the strength and resources to make him into a productive and happy young man in spite of his problems from the fetal alcohol.
You’re in a great profession to find help and support for yourself appropriately and when the time comes you can set off on your mission to help others, you will be well on your way to being an expert in that field. I am so glad for you, you DO HAVE MANY BLESSINGS besides enough fresh clean water every day!
And Hopeforjoy is right, there is a wealth of support here. (((Hugs)))
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Monday, 23 August 2010 @ 11:29pm
chinagirl says:
Hi Hope for Joy and Oxdrover!
Thanks again for the support. What a relief to just be here among people who understand and believe. I have felt almost crazy lately. I realize how naive I have been….but not any more.
As far as family of origin: yes, lots of dysfunction there…grew up with it, sought counseling for it for many years, worked out a lot of the issues and am blessed to have the insight to change the things that needed changing about me. Work in progress….
As far as consequences (Oxdrover)No! I do not think it is harsh….Since having to deal with my s ex I firmly push for accountability not only in myself but in everyone around me. No liars, no theives, not bs! Can’t do it. I believe in natural consequences and I raised my now 26 year old son that way. He is a great guy and is supportive-kind of. I think he doesn’t quite get this and thinks I have done something..you know? I have tried to tell him the whole story but I struggle with burdening him with stuff…this man, the s, isn’t his father.Thank god. Sadly my x ex and his new wife have just bred 3 more children. Like you all said, I hope that his new wife will soon figure things out. From some of the things she has had to witness its possible, but I don’t know her at all and she ahs pretty much believed his lies.
That’s the hard part…being slandered and lied about constantly. Because of his “credentials” he has managed to get me kicked out of a house I rented recently (I do have a lawsuit pending that my attorney said I should win because they had no reason to kick me out..they said “we recently heard some very concerning things about you”….and also got fired and I am suing them for wrongful termination. On top of the stress I have already endured I have to deal with moving twice (after being fired I had to leave my condo…then got kicked out of the house). If I just heard these stories I would think I was a loser….and yet I KNOW I have done nothing to deserve this except to have married this creep. People around me keep saying “just live your life”, or “Just pretend he doesn’t exist” and first: that is naive….I have been doing that but with my ex he will do whatever he can to undermine or hurt me and as he told me “I will destroy you”. and second: I feel that I am almost setting myself up..do you know what I mean? That he has been doing this crazy thing to me and I have been dealing with it so long that I over react in every situation assuming it is him doing things when maybe it isn’t. But, maybe that is the crazy making of this? See how much help i obviously need! LOL!
I have my sense of humor and I still have my practice which is slow but I am grateful for what I have. I have been able to work and do a very good job of keeping my personal life out of my practice…I have one client who after knowing him for a couple of years and then discharging him say he would never have guessed I had any huge stressors in my life based on how I presented myself at my work…so that is a blessing. I just feel like I am at the edge right now and again, thanks for support and being here. I have been reading article after article..wow…do I belong here!
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 12:49am
bulletproof says:
I relate to you on the people around you who do not get it and come up with cringeworthy statements like forget about him, and pretend he does not exist…so harmful to try and block the impact, the damage and the pain…so stay here and keep putting the words out so you can see the feelings emerge, here with people who can hear you and have infinite patience with you!
the edge is a scary place to be…but a dear departed friend of mine always said “if you are not on the edge..you are taking up too much room” she welcomed my edginess and saw it as the “growth edge” the “cutting edge” the “leading edge” and whether you balance, fall or jump you are gonna learn something fantastic….
yeah? sure does not feel like that at the time..I really thought I would die with the paradox, the complex hideous trick he played out on me…no one knows the damage only him…and me….. forging us to bond in a particularly twisted way, it makes me want to vomit (projectile, luminous green, exorcist style) keep talking through it…and we will get to other side somehow
One step- what about a vomit theme some week? we need a detox!!
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 6:37am
chinagirl says:
Bulletproof,
I find your “edge” analagy to be very interesting and helpful, too….in that I so feel on the edge and because of feeling that way have thought I might not make it back. But I can look at being on the edge as the way you described it….and that this entire path I have been on is a way to some incredible growth and understanding. I have been through so much….family of origin dysfunction, therapy, miscarriages, recovery from vicodin (10 years), more therapy, horrible marriage, sick parents, death of my son’s fiance (auto accident) five years ago, mom’s death, brother who is after me now along with ex, etc etc etc….and I am strong. We all have courage here or we wouldn’t be here. I could have thrown in the towel but I REFUSE to allow him to take me down. I never thought my life would be like this at my age but I am still vibrant and have a lot to give back and I want to raise my beautiful daughter. I waited seven years for her! he didn’t even want to adopt because he needed his genetics littering the earth. Ok, not going there…..LOL….I promised myself I wouldn’t be a drain here….although I realize this is a place to vent the more I vent and stay negative the worse it is for me. The thing that has been helpful is to read about things I have felt or thigns that have happened that make me feel validated in my feelings, thoughts and even behaviors that have been at times psycho. psycho in that I have allowed my emotions to run me. the other part of the strength i have gained through this is that I can relate to so many more of my clients. I get it, I have been there. Especially with this particular disorder because as we all have realized no one really gets it in the mental health world. No one that I have worked with really does…even therapists who work with domestic violence batterers understand the sociopath and how insidious and scary it is.
I wonder how much my ex’s new wife knows about how he spends his time. As much time as he spends attempting to sabotage me I wonder how he can have a medical practice, raise four kids, including my incredible daughter who told me about four months ago “I don’t have any best friends now except TaiLi and Pip (her cats, one here, one with him) and I just wait until I am with you mama”. How sad is that? It breaks my freaking heart and I KNOW he tells her (she is almost 9) that I am doing something wrong by the way she talks to me….saying “I doubt I’ll be able to come up and see your new office any more”. HUH? he has also told her that she will NEVER live with me and he has also told her I am using drugs. Which is not true and I have been doing urine drug screens for four years that prove it! (Since I am in recovery it is a way for me to stay accountable to myself, to my clients, to my family….and I chose to do this and chose to do them witnessed even because he would then come back and say that I faked them) But I struggle with do I remain completely transparent and have nothing for him to work with? Or do I get any privacy what so ever? Does anyone understand that? I have nothing to hide and I hate being on the defensive. I read somebody’s post saying we need to get out of the defensive mode and get on the offense. That is so true. Ok, I ramble….and my goal here is to get out of victim mode and not feel sorry for myself, be helpful, and also heal and change my life! I feel more empowered being here…..
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 10:42am
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Right now, I think you need to find some peace of mind, some quiet time within yourself. How or where you find that time, through meditation, relaxation therapy, vacation, whatever method you use. You need to get out of WORRY MODE. VICTIM MODE. and into PEACEFUL MODE. Give your adrenal glads a rest….and let your body heal. It won’t be quick and it won’t be easy.
The serenity prayer is very appropriate about now.
When you see your daughter just reassure her that you love her forever and that you think of her always. Give her a time of day that can be a special time between the two of you when you and she think about each other. I saw this on a movie promo the other day, at 9 p.m each night the man and woman would both drink a cup of water and think of the other one doing the same thing that exact same minute. That might be a comfort to your daughter and something he couldn’t take away. Tell her it is a secret between the two of you.
I know it must break your heart for a child you love to be separated from you by the freak of nature “father”—-but for right now that is the REALITY, a reality you hate, that she hates, but it is reality that for NOW can’t be changed, so it must be accepted and the best made of how it IS for your sake and for your daughter’s sake.
Maybe you can make up a little book for her of pictures of the cat at your house and his “day” and past them inside a book made of construction paper and tied with ribbons, and caption the photos of him eating, sleeping, climbing, playing, etc to give to her when you see her.
I’m sure that HE doesn’t “raise” 4 kids and have a medical practice, he probably ignores 4 kids and has a medical practice and lets his current wife raise the kids.
And actually unless the wife is a beast, that is probably better for your daughter that he is busy and not there with her that much. Keep strong, and take care of yourself. l((((Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 10:55am
chinagirl says:
One question -
Is anyone afraid their s ex will “pose” on this site as a victim? I must be so paranoid I realize but after realizing he has called a man I dated, my employer, my landlord, friends, hacked into my computer (believe me when I say he has resources and tons of money). I had been on match.com thinking I might want to date (still don’t) but I am too afraid to be on that site…it feels parasitic and scary…unless that is just me and my paranoia…What does everyone think? Thanks
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 11:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear China girl,
UNless he has a keystroke program on your computer I would doubt it.
Internet dating sites are nothing in my opinion but TROLLING sites for psychopaths and would NEVER RECOMMEND that you internet date at all.
I would be very careful of any Face Book or other social networking sites as well,. but I wouldn’t worry about LoveFraud.
We occasionally have a troll come here but they are just more “generalized” ones that are mostly kids looking to cause a stir, we spot them, refuse to interact with them, they throw a fit and Donna blocks them. End of story. ((((Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 11:51am
bulletproof says:
chinagirl
In my experience here, not much gets past the bullshit scanners of the older original lovefrauders… they can usually ‘pick up’ spath energy through an e-mail…the paranoia is just fear, high pitched fear and it’s totally understandable.. there is an interesting way the lovefrauders gather around spath energy and literally cut it off so that it cannot survive
I wouldn’t put it past spaths to snoop around but this is a very tight network of dedicated ’spathologists’ and they wouldn’t last long…a spath would get very bored after a while here because there is nothing here for them….they would not make head nor tail of this place…it’s a hostile place for them to find themselves…what would he gain from reading your pain? a pathetic sense of self importance that he can reduce a woman to this? I still think, being the site that it is.. expressing yourself here is better than sitting on it, regardless of him…we shall overcome? it’s not about THEM…it’s about US
I feel for you and your situation. It is awful there is a 9 year old in the middle of it..it’s heartbreaking. Oxy gave some lovely advice and taili and pipi are natural healers being cats!! but it is difficult for you no doubt.
I really like what you say about coming out of defensive mode and into offensive …. There is something to it! I would promote assertiveness over anger..but I have been known to rage and wild horses couldn’t stop it! I would advocate privacy over transparency….humans are just not transparent…maybe if we were ghosts it would work..or spirits…then things could just pass through but on earth things impact and burn and hurt like hell and to be over exposed to that energy is just asking for trouble.
the body is a physical thing and needs to be protected from evil whether is physical violence or malicious psychic intent
ha ha I’m laughing as I consider HOW a spath would pose as a victim here on this site!! maybe I shouldn’t be laughing and ..aaargh what if….if….they are all spaths posing as victims!!
keep reading and voicing your concerns, dip in and out as you feel..well that’s what I do and it has really helped so much..oh and read everything!!! some brilliant advise, articles..so much support and most of all UNDERSTANDING x
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 11:52am
OxDrover says:
Bulletproof, THEY DO POSE AS VICTIMS HERE—-there have been several.
My Spath detector goes off when someone comes here and:
Seldom or never gives back to others support or kindness
Continues to whine about things they COULD do something about but don’t.
Blame their “spath” for EVERYTHING in their lives
Nothing is ever their fault or responsibility
Assume no responsibility for allowing the abuse to go on after they “saw the light”
Refuse to go NC with the psychopath even if they could
Continue in revenge mode and petty revenge mode and never get out of that mode
and so on, there are tons of things that just are “gut feelings” that before long you can spot them even on LF and even with them seeming to be victims.
Unfortunately MANY DYSFUNCTIONAL P-RELATIONSHITS have TWO Ps and the “loser in the fight” then presents themselves as a victim, LOOKING FOR NEW PEOPLE TO SUPPORT THEM AND PITY THEM AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEM.
I actually took in (Physically) one of these PSEUDO-VICTIMS last summer to help her out, but before long I saw she was a LEECH not a person trying to heal. So I showed her the DOOR (or in my case, the GATE to the county road and suggested she leave since she had obviously NOT BENEFITED from the opportunities I had offered her to get a JOB or get HEALTH CARE and so on….the only difference in her being here was she was 3 months older than when she came. She was simply a Psychopath that had been whipped down either by other psychopaths or by her intended victims who had gotten on to her game.
She was a great actress though I will put that to her credit, but by looking at what she SAID versus what she DID it became apparent that she had NO intention of helping herself. She was obviously too GOOD TO WORK and menial labor. Well, I worked my way through college cleaning other people’s homes and scrubbing their toilets, so you know how that went over with me! LOL
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 12:28pm
chinagirl says:
Again, thank you so much….everyone…
As I read I start remembering things I had forgotten…but reading puts a kind of normalcy to my pain. Normalcy in that I am not alone and it isn’t only me or the ‘what is wrong with me” feeling. Because my s ex wants me to beleive it is all my fault. the lies in court….unreal! I wouldn’t consider lying under oath and when I heard him do this several times I started to understand his illness. When I first married him I thought “he is too good for me! I don’t deserve him…” and how I thought he had more integrity than anyone I had met. His third wife said that to me once…”he is the most gentle man i have ever met”. I said the same things! So did his first wife.
What is interesting to read are things about the pornography…he is addicted to internet pornography and that is what prompted our marriage counseling. We did marriage counseling for about 3 years but he never really got “real”. At the end, he started to look at the issues around his mother…she is the one he hates but she is too dangerous to go up against for obvious and many reasons…and yet he started to go up against her and call the family on their behaviors…well, that lasted about a month and he came home after a 2nd trip out to see his family (the therapist told him to confront them) and he came back saying “No, I was wrong. the things in my childhood didn’t happen” and that was it. he was done and our marriage went downhill faster….then in court for the divorce he told them that I introduced him to pornography! I about died. A friend of mine was in court with me and she choked. I gasped. And he sat there like the pompous ass he is. The funny thing is he has no mind of his own. When we went to court I brought in a support system…the next day he came in with a support system. The first day i brought in a small photo album to present that showed pictures of my life with my daughter…the next day he did the same thing. What a joker. But the other issue that I have read about is murder by suicide. I have been talking about that but had never heard the term and that is exactly what he is doing. He thinks I will kill myself in my pain and believe me I have thought about it but I’d never leave my children. And i am much too strong for that. I do fear the losses at times and the money situation right now is tenuous….but I have a spiritual belief and I hold onto that and so far God has come through! I also try to figure out the lessons I am supposed to learn going through this…and maybe it isn’t all about me…maybe there is no lesson. I don’t know. I am just trying to find a way to lessen my pain.
I am taking the great suggestions here and putting them to use. Thank you so much for taking the time to hear me and respond. It is kind of like an AA meeting…the new person helps remind what it was like at the beginning and although I don’t want to be a brain drain I know that is part of the process, too. I know that once I get to a more peaceful place I will be able to be more helpful.
Another thought when reading is to wonder about my s ex’s mother…the family was always presented as so together and so loving and close. What is really is is sickly enmeshed in a very ugly way. Even one of our therapists thought my s ex had slept with his sister and I believe this might be true. His sister is about 2 years younger and even at the age of 33 (this was 12 years ago) she was walking around in front of him with just her bra and underpants on. I remember thinking ‘is this normal for siblings?’ and I just couldn’t get my brain around it. Then his mom would walk around in the morning with just an oversized t shirt on…super short…and I thought my god are you kidding? I wouldn’t do that in front of my kid. One time when we went on vacation for the weekend and my s ex’s sister was living with us (she moved to every city he moved to, same when he was married prior to me) and she had it great…I set up her bedroom and a tv and her own bathroom so she could have privacy when she wanted it and of course she could be anywhere in the house…but if it was me i’d want to watch tv in my room sometimes….when we got back my bedroom was not a mess but messed with. I could tell because I do things a certain way and one is I clean before I leave for a vacation so when i come home it is nice. She had slept in our bed, on his side of the bed because there was food and crumbs in it and the bed was messed up a bit. and when I told my ex to talk to her he said “well if you want to get on her shit list then yes confront her but you do it”. I thought So you are telling me I can’t confront her about behaviors that are not acceptable and that you won’t take a stand? he had also said that I was causing problems and forcing him to take a side and I thought but you are married to me and it is time to move on! Anyway, after the sister moved out a month later she took my clothes, my jewelry, my DVD’s and when I asked for them back she threw them on the front porch! it was just nuts…this was the first year of our marriage and I thought this family is crazy. There is so much more….the mom is alcoholic, we put his dentist dad into treatment for vicodin and valium addiction, the mom rages and controls everything by her raging…and every vacation was to visit his family. I remember now how he isolated me form my family and my friends…and only in our church did he support what i did…. What I find amazing is how insidious domestic violence is…and how I lost my sense of self and my self esteem…and I’d start to isolate because I was angry and depressed…and then he’d rage at me and run to our friends and say “I am so worried about my wife….” and he’d get them to think that I had relapsed or something like that…and of course I hadn’t I was responding to his behavior and no one knew what really was going on. I also remember one time we were driving and I’d complained about his driving numerous times because he is a terrible driver, doesn’t use signals, always is on his phone, looking in the rear view mirror at himself or his teeth or whatever…and he’d swerve all over and just was never safety conscience…he’d get mad at me for wanting safety measures in place such as locking up medications…he’d left a needle and syringe of a flu shot on my daughters playroom floor and then he got mad at me for being upset. He said “Oh what could happen? she’d get a flu shot” and I thought “You are a doctor dumb ass”. but when driving one time he drove straight towards a barrier so the barrier was coming towards me, my side of the vehicle and then at the very last second he swerved so he didn’t crash the car into it…and acted like nothing. These kinds of things were rampant in our life and I thought I was going crazy. Sometimes I still wonder, is it me? Am i the sociopath? because he will tell me that I am the sociopath. And I sometimes wonder! Although I know that isn’t true…the one part of me is I have a huge heart and so much compassion that it is almost painful at times. and I am accountable. I am the first to look at my part in a situation. But I still allow him to get into my head and think I must be making this up. Does anyone else go through that? And yet every story, every incident is the absolute truth of what I have lived with. It just seems so unreal…and so many haven’t believed me. I dated a guy for two years after the divorce…a sweet guy, but a kind of depressed buy…we were really just great friends more than anything, he was too young for me to marry….anyway after a year of hearing me, seeing that my ex had a PI on me and knowing after having a computer forensics guy look at my computer (a gift he gave me right after I left him and I wondered why he gave it to me…..not like him you know?) and find a key stroke monitor on it…etc this boyfriend of mine told me he still didn’t quite believle me until he had a conversation with my ex’s first wife….when he heard her story and how similar it was to mine then he believed me! That’s been the hardest…that my friends think I have done something wrong.
I just feel so grateful to have the information here…it might be a bit consuming right now but I can see after I integrate all of this information, begin to really get on the offense and take good care of myself (i have not been working out, or eating or sleeping well the past several months especially, after my mom’s death and moving and starting my practice etc) that my future will change. I have to not allow myself to give up and just before I found this site I was about there…not suicide but just stopping trying. I wasn’t working smartly, as I said, I was working emotionally and it was draining me. And making me continue to make poor decisions about men…although I have not dated now for 2 1/2 years. What a great gift that has been. To get over the idea that I NEED a man. i do not! And to learn to choose a better man. Sick attracks sick…so unless I am healthy I won’t choose a good man. I do want a partner, someone where we ‘have each others backs’ kind of support system, a friendship…I think I am also scared that I don’t know what that kind of love really looks like…mostly I am afraid of intimacy in that being vulnerable is too risky right now. So that means I don’t get into a relatinoship yet. I am still not ready and for me that has been the smartest thing and the best thing I have done for myself. I found myself on an online dating service right after the guy above and I broke up and looking back I think that guy I met online was another sociopathy. he was someone that sounded exciting and fun and was kind of sexy…but when I looked into his eyes the hair on the back of my neck stood up. and I found myself with him for about a month and even his family told me he was sick mentally and his sister said he was a sociopath. I was out of there! but it was scary realizing I was attracted to him…What I think I had been doing was again reacting emotionally, my fears driving my decisions…does that make sense? And my fears when I met my ex were kind of similar…and I feel grateful to be able to see that now. That is a huge lesson.
Again, I ramble. But so much is happening right now as I read and listen and relate.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 12:56pm
bulletproof says:
AAAAaaaaarghhh!!! yes I can see the circle complete itself now! the psychic vampires, the energy suckers, the life drainers, the black holes…they seem so cute in the beginning…till they lock on with the fangs and then quite considerable force is needed to pull them off before you are bled..lol
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 1:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
MY opinion is that we need to heal and be by ourselves for quite some time after the total devastation of the experience with the psychopath. TIME ALONE won’t do it, we must use that time to work on ourselves and healing ourselves before we can be ready for a healthy relationship. Otherwise, we will not make a good partner for a healthy person and we sure don’t want to pick up another P in our neediness. That is exactly what I did after my husband was killed in an accident, I was SO needy I picked up a P. NOT a good move.
Just keep on reading and learning and growing. There will come a time when you ARE ready for another relationship! (((Hugs)))
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 2:13pm
chinagirl says:
As I have been reading I see another commonality…my s ex asked me out and three weeks later wanted to marry me. Then he asked me to fly with him to his home town and “turn pages” for him as he played a piano concert. A few days later I saw him at work and he said “Oh I don’t want you to go with me to the concert”. He had gone shopping with me as I picked out a dress to wear for this event….and then the day before the concert he said, “OH I want you to come with”. he did this again over a Thanksgiving holiday weekend he wanted me to fly to Memphis to meet his grandmother and relatives…and have my on go with…i bought tickets and he at the last minute said “no , don’t want you to go”. He was all over the place and I broke up with him at one point….and looking back the red flags seem so obvious and so pervasive but I had not yet had any therapy and hadn’t worked out my own things so I was not looking clearly at who he was. Sadly. I actually was offered a great job in California and was getting ready to go when he presented me with a huge diamond and tons of excuses about his schizy behavior saying because his first wife ‘messed him up’ he was just so unsure about everything and then realized he couldn’t live without me. Boy oh boy do I wish I would have gone to California….You know I believe men tell us everything we need to know…there are many reasons we deny these truths and yet also some are very good at their behaviors…I take responsibility in that I saw the red flags and ignored them….and chose this guy out of some of my own fears. Its hard to admit to but its true. Had I been healthier emotionally I doubt I would have even continued to date the creep.
There is no way I am ready for a relationship right now despite the five years post divorce. The fact he married 5 months after our divorce is really scary. How could he possibly have made any changes or healed or done any work? Or really these guys don’t do that kind of self work because they are not accountable so nothing is their fault or responsibility. My friends all told me that he was not accountable, the therapists told me the same….he is still not accountable and I am guessing never will be. Do these guys change? I do like Patrick Carne’s strategy for re-uniting with a sociopath…but it takes a lot of time and work and I just can’t see someone like my ex doing what Carnes says….being commited to recovery, proving accountability and honesty….it doesn’t compute. Maybe I have misread the review of this book of Carnes’ and sociopaths do not recover. Maybe he is talking about a different personality disorder. I am going to buy the book and read it myself to see what he says. And it isn’t as though I’d ever want to get back with my ex. Not a chance. I’d never want to live with someone who was so controlling, abusive, cold…he’d pick fights with me when I was sick so he didn’t have to help me (his words), yet when he was sick with flu he’d bring iv supplies home and want me to start iv and baby him…I had surgery and he brought me home and went to get my post op meds and three hours later I had to call him as the local wore off and I was in pain to bring me my pain medications. He was at a friends house, hanging out, eating dinner with them! No, this is not a life partner I’d ever want to be with again. I couldn’t survive it!!
The other thing is I find myself in and out of fears. Irrational and rational fears. I feel like I have post trauma stress and not even as a disorder because I think we have all gone through post traumatic events here. The stress we undergo is in reaction to the events. But I think after five years my stress has turned into a disorder…since I haven’t had any way to really work through it not finding anyone to talk to until now. I am afraid to go to sleep at night. I keep having weird and horrible dreams. About my life, about my mom and dad (my mom just died in Feb), about my daughter…so I am not sleeping well because i am too afraid to sleep. How weird is that? I feel like a wreck and a bit of a loser to tell you the truth. I have had so many people accuse me of being something I’m not that I find myself in ourbursts of anger and most recently, crying jags that I have not had for four years. I have been crying more this last week than ever. And it scares me. I know walking through these feelings, not trying to mask them in anway and I am not! is what is necessary. I want to get to the other side…and its not a fun journey. Sometimes I wish I had a medical illness and not this emotional one. I am sick of the emotional stuff. My goal for this week: start my gratitude journal, eat healthy, walk daily, organize my back office (something I have procrastinated and I usually do not procrastinate. I am a blitz krief kind of person! I can paint a house in a couple of days when i set my mind to it!). As I start to do something different and good for myself I know that it will pick up momentum. I need to do what I tell my clients to do! Get out of myself. Help someone else.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 2:47pm
ErinBrock says:
Chinagirl:
I’m a bit late in my welcoming of you……but welcome to LF!
You will find all the support and education to hold your hand and offer ideas along the way.
We ‘get it’. !!!
One thought which came to mind…….can you reach any of his former Nanny’s? They may be able to offer some dirt on him and parenting?
Keep your stance with your daughter…..visit as often as allowed…..(by courts)…..and follow through legally with yoru rights.
If you let that process intimidate you…..you’ll lose all rights.
It’s about ‘winning’ with a spath. Not love, not caring…..just possessional winning.
I’m a big advocate for shutting them down by using their own tactics against them……backspathing.
You must be covert….and as you’ve found out…..you just can’t trust anyone….and especially if they are family….(my family all went and got sucked into the glamor of my spath)…..People have to prove themselves to me for me to ‘let’ them in.
If they think you’ll react one way….>DON”T……
NOW is the time to turn on the self discipline and self control…..as hard as it is…….but you can’t be predictible to them.
I call that ’shaking’ it up.
When my kids were kidnapped, and my family participated…..they all thought they knew my reaction……I didn’t do what I wanted to do….and go rambo on spath……And I DIDN”T! This was CRUCIAL for me!!!!!
You see…..he was setting me up to do something he expected to make me look desperate and crazy……See….I told you she was crazy……and my family would follow suit. He wanted me commited and to him, my family was key to making that happen.
If I was ‘declared’……..he would be in ‘charge’.
YIKES!!!!
I was able to turn that situation around, get my kids back and call a spade a spade in the legal system…..but you must be more calculated and controlled than the spath!!!!
It was the hardest thing i’ve ever done…..and at a time of desperation and fear…….
I sat in the recliner for 2 weeks……day went into night, night went into day…..as I became one with the recliner.
BUT…..I had to trust in myself and my observation of the situation……
I learned patience which has also served me well…….
You can make one of two decisions…….curl up fetal in the corner…..OR…..stand up, load your big ‘gun’ and start shooting legal bullets!
Legal bullets full of FACTS, documentation and NO EMOTIONS!
No hearsay…..ONLY FACTS!
No tears…(save those for LF), show a completely IN CONTROL woman.
IT’s an uphill battle which requires strength and determination and tenacity!
It’s not over until YOU determine that it’s over…..
So girl…..stand tall, put on your big girl panties (the spiked ones) and get busy on your recon educational work.
I will assure you…..it’s a long road…..but there is peace in the end.
Right is right…..wrong is wrong….it’s all in the way you handle it!
XXOO
EB
Oh yeah…..PS….stay off the internet dating sites…..YOU AIN”T GOT TIME FOR THAT!!!!! Dating is NOT a priority. Healing and getting your ‘house’ in order comes first.
Now….get busy!
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 2:54pm
bulletproof says:
chinagirl
Yes it all makes sense….but you are onto it now and beginning to break it down and have another look. That is a brave thing to do…finally face this and see it for what it really is. So much to take in, work out…it is truly bewildering and overwhelming…so slow down, remember to breathe and be…
I did the same thing…tried to get someone else to cover the pain…but I just couldn’t do it to myself in the end…I decided to stop dating and try and just nurse myself through what felt like a roller coaster ride of negative emotions…horrible..I needed a period of transition to negotiate the parts of me that were lost. I literally called all the pieces of me back…he had left me in bits…I was not the person I was prior to meeting him and will never be He was a major negative event in my life at a time I was feeling strong, vibrant, healthy and up for anything…so it takes time…staring at walls saying “how could he do that to me….” now I can walk around saying “how could he have done that to me” step by step
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 2:57pm
OxDrover says:
DEar China girl,
I know you ARE a therapist but have you gotten any therapy? EMDR helped me with the PTSD and I had it very badly. I am a registered advance practice nurse, but had to retire because I didn’t have enough short term memory to function safely at work. (Fortunately I am old enough that wasn’t a big problem retiring a few years early) If I had been 30 it would have been a BIG deal.
Also, you might consider being evaluated for psychotropic medication for the PTSD by a psychiatrist. Pharmacology has saved my sanity and my life!!!! WHOOPIE DRUGS!!!!! I am now on a low dose but grateful that it helps.
PTSD is not a thing that you want to try to “cure yourself” from. It is a serious brain-altering chemical-changing REAL thing that isn’t just something to “be tough” and “get over” so don’t even try it without some serious help. LF is a great help but for most things like PTSD it isn’t enough. Serious medical help is needed here.
The eat well, sleep better, rest, and exercise is GREAT and must be a complement to the medical management and oversight. In this thing we must get ALL HANDS ON DECK to help us heal. Use every asset we have available. ((((Hugs))))) and God bless.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 3:06pm
kim frederick says:
EB, Become one with the recliner. Funny.
I’m going to use that when I need some meditation time.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 3:59pm
chinagirl says:
WOW! Erinbrock, Bulletproof, OxDrover and all LF….thank you, again and again.
Erinbrock: I really need that pep talk and the get busy! Really. It is imperitive that i get my shit together…five years I feel wasted flying around trying to get my life back together, trying to survive and wanting everything back the way it was (my beautiful house I designed, my car, my girl, my life) and I made so many mistakes this whole damn time. Even so far as to relapse…for a short time but since he had a key stroke monitor on my computer he found out and I refused to lie about it because I did and do work an honest program of recovery….so I admitted to it. I think I’d look worse if I tried to lie….so that hurt me, of course, although I had only relapsed a couple of months and I followed all the judges orders on that (she wanted me to go back and do another outpatient treatment although I had already done that and had had five years solid recovery prior to the 2 months I relapsed on vicodin…my sponsor even came to court for me) and not to justify I just couldn’t handle all the pain…my mom’s diagnosis with breast cancer, my dad was dx with alzheimer’s, my son’s fiance died, and I found out I was going to be in horrendous custody battle with a psychopath….I was alone, my friends abandoned me and I made stupid stupid mistakes. Then, i got into grad school, graduated while going to help my mom every other weekend with my dad and it took at 5 hour drive to get there…while in grad school, while driving the opposite way to pick up my dauthter 3 hours every other Friday to see her for weekends and graduated with a 3.8. So! I have done some good things as well, but as I said I am kicking myself…again…for reacting, not responding and I have let him win so far. I haven’t been to see my daughter yet because I have been trying to survive…literally but I need to get down there now. I have to pay to see her, too. $125.00 every Sat for just two hours supervised and there is just no reason that needs to happen. Anyway, didn’t mean to slip into poor me. what I am trying to say is thank you for the kick in the pants pep talk because i do need to get myself together and not be afraid. I feel very alone in this battle and I do not trust ANYONE, not even my son which sounds horrible but I just don’t. He still talks to my s ex and uses his nickname….I just don’t trust that. I will stop the dating thing. I can’t do it anyway. I inevitably cancel on everyone at the last minute anyway. I can’t imagine having a physical relationship and so far has chosen poorly still and that means I’m so not ready yet. I don’t have anything to give in that area. I give everything I have to my few clients…and I need to build my practice. I, too, am a advanced practice nurse. I used to be a nurse anesthetist and I loved the field, but when I got married we moved to a town in the NW that doesn’t have nurse anesthetists providing anesthesia and I almost think it was a plan because I was offered a job in a town I could commute to and my ex said “over my dead body” and I couldn’t understand why he said that…now I get it. Isolation, make me dependent….and it never felt good…and he always put down the things that I did do well..as I tried to adjust to not working and having my own career after years and years of working. I have always planned on going back to get my master’s in psych and because I had several anesthesia colleagues die of OD I knew I wanted to focus my practice on addiction medicine. Now I want to add to this practice helping people who have been abused by sociopaths….but as I said, after I heal.
OxDrover, yes I have gotten lots of therapy the past five years. Well, not lots, but intermittent and have worked trying to get through this but I have been diagnosed incorrectly! No one caught on to my ex’s crap and it has all been about me moving on…well as you know that is only part of this. I haven’t been able to move on because it continues to happen, the sabotage, the harrassment, the terrorizing. the 25 text messages…although at this time I have cut contact with him and try to only contact his new wife about my daughter. I don’t read his texts or emails…I just save them. And i do need some therapy…PTSD work because of not only my past but of this, to. I have never had EMDR and don’t know a lot about it…A friend does that work but she lives in Canada. The All Hands on Deck is a for sure. Thank you all…because I need to really whip myself into shape here. God, I am tired. and depressed but starting to feel like at least I have some answers and support. I wish you all lived here! LOL. And Bulletproof: my getting a guy to cover my pain just doesn’t work for me any more. I have grown up in that area or rather maybe have seen the character defect that needed attention…going from one relationship to another and NOT FEELING. I have learned in my recovery to feel and to know that they are just feelings…not good, not bad, they just are. And once I label them feel them I can move forward from them. I have had a lifetime of self destructive shit…I need to love myself. As you also said, my ex has been a negative force in my life. The person I was when I met him is gone. I miss her! Although i had some things to work on at that time, obviously!, I was alive, fun, smart, independent, made a great living, had a great condo….friends…a life! I feel like I live in a hole now, withdrawn from life. But I like the changing of the verb tense bulletproof in that he has in the past hurt you, not present. Mine feels too present tense and I need to put in into past tense. I had to read what you wrote a couple of times to hear what you were saying! But I get it.
Ok, time to KICK IT UP SEVERAL NOTCHES!
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 4:18pm
chinagirl says:
ErinBrock-one more thing. I, too, have been thinking about the 2 nannies that are gone. (He also had an entire office staff do a mass exodus on him including a physician partner who won’t talk to him…I never found out what happened of course he spun it to be about them! and at that time I still believed him because what he did, and I even kind of recognized this then..was he became super super nice and kind to me, made me feel like his friend and partner (like I always wanted and asked for and he said his first wife told him the same thing!) and I see that I was probably his only friend and ally at that moment when the entire offie up and quit. interesting…I tried to talk to one of the staff during the divorce but she didn’t want to go there and I don’t blame her. But I do have the nannies phone numbers and am trying to figure out a way to open up a dialogue with them. My fear is they tell him and when I do stuff “to” him he gets more vindictive towards me. another thing, his first wife, the one I visited in Atlanta (I wrote in my bio i think) she is pretty well known in Atlanta, works wtih Give Back a Smile and we did a shoot for New Beauty magazine on domestic violence. About 8 of us where in the photo all talking about dv and she was on the Atlanta news talking about our ex and the fact he was getting remarried again (this was 2006)…his father, a dentist in the south, and my spath both got the magazines delivered to them apparently by his first wife but it set him off against me. so there we are, his two wives in a photo shoot about DV. Unfotunately it did nothing for me in court. No one believed it. No one cared plus I had a horrible attorney. Long story and I have fired several attorneys along the way for incompetence in this area. And the other thing is his cousin, a cousin who does not like him, just got married in may to someone famous in hollywood….I don’t know her that well, although we spent a little time together and she liked my son a lot…I had to keep myself from posting online about their recent wedding and slamming my ex, which would be inappropriate for the cousin! Anyway, wondering how I can utilize these things….if at all. Whenever I try to muscle up to him he gets scary. The eyes of his are still so scary to me. You can see the evil.
Hugs to all of you out there surviving this….
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 4:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I hear your pain, and your panic, and your frustration. You’ve got a lot on your plate GF! I definitely understand that.
First off, your “one huge paragraph” posting makes it hard for an old woman like me to read it. Post AS MUCH AS YOU WANT, but please divide it up into paragraphs some how if you can. LOL
If you are an APN and got through anesthesia school you are a bright woman, so I know you can use that brain power to help you get your stuff together.
Right now, don’t even think about “muscling up” on him. I muscled up on my P-son and almost got killed for my trouble. Right now, make YOURSELF THE FOCUS OF YOUR HEALING.
Remember on an airliner when they tell you if the oxygen masks drop and you have a child with you, put YOURS ON FIRST and then the one on the child. Because if you are not functional, you CANNOT HELP SOMEONE ELSE.
Are you reliably able to communicate with your daughter by telephone or letter/card? If so, call her regularly. Send her a card of some kind almost every day if you know she is getting them. Visit as often as possible.
Right now, your energy is limited, just like time is limited, or money, energy to heal is part of what you need to reserve for yourself.
Keep your cards close to your chest. Don’t trust anyone that knows him not to blab to him. Do your venting here, there are some savy people here with good heads, so use THIS RESOURCE it is like the old cell phone ad, “You have the NETWORK FROM LOVE FRAUD BEHIND YOU” There are psychiatrists,physicians, journalists, lawyers,nurses, therapists, and all kinds of other smart folks here. One of the first things I noticed here is that this is one of the brightest group of people I have ever encountered on a blog. Not everyone has a college degree but even those who don’t have are SMART folks.
Just finding such a place where there were folks smarter’n me that got zinged by a psychopath was really a comfort to me, as tacky as that sounds! I knew I wasn’t the only smart person in the world who got nailed. But it isn’t about being “smart” it is about using those smarts to learn and to protect yourself. To GIVE TO YOURSELF without going into the FOG (fear, obligation and Guilt)
Keep reading as many of the older archived articles as you can, the more you know the better, but the recovery is a day at a time, and it is like peeling an onion, each layer you clean off, there is another one under it,, so don’t rush yourself, just one layer at a time….digest that and then peel another one. ((((Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 5:15pm
chinagirl says:
Oxdrover- so sorry about the huge paragraphs. I am sooooo bad about that but will change it.
Thanks again! I understand the feeling of not being the only one…to be feeling so duped and naive makes me insane! I hate the fact that I have to change and not trust much any more but it is what I have to do. I don’t like having that “baggage” and it is unfair to people who come into my life who have done nothing. Yet, I just can’t afford to trust. not right now. That includes my son. Which makes me feel really bad…but wait! in a way he did it himself by keeping contact with the spath and using his endearing nickname etc. My best friend thinks my son should stop contact all together. I don’t feel I can tell y 26 yo son who to have contact with.
I love using the spath word….I can’t stand his name and it creeps me out to use it and the name I gave him, Fuckwit, isn’t always appropriate!
I certainly have learned a lot the past few days. Really enjoying the articles.
I have thought that i need to send my daughter a letter everyday. I wish I could trust she’d get emails…i don’t trust she will get anything I send and I try to send stuff every month.
Lastly, I had documented all the nightmarish stuff for the past five years. One day i came home and my house felt like someone had been in it. I was forced to always keep my ex informed of my address (court order parenting plan…he didn’t follow his court order telling me where he was flying with her, what airline etc. however) but my house just didn’t feel right. Nothing I could put my finger on…and then I checked the back bedroom windows. they were unlocked and I NEVER unlock those windows. I work a lot so I was never there….easy to break into. Neighbors wouldn’t be watching etc. Then about a month later I couldn’t find my notebook with all the “incidents” that the spath did, all the times he changed the pick up and drop off times for my daughter, all the times he lied, all the times he had her inappropriatel dressed, looking dirty, wearing clothes too small (I pay him 500month for child support)…I had kept a strict journal of things and it is gone. GONE! My new attorney told me that all the past stuff can’t be used again anyway…hmmm…I don’t see why I can’t introduce evidence of harrassment at some point in the future when I go back to court to prove his behavior. Doesn’t surprise me it is gone.
I have a new laptop and want to get some kind of encryption on it…I feel so violated all of the time and feel naive about how to protect myself online…any ideas there? I do not send him emails from the account I use daily. I also do not open anything he attaches anymore. I had some weird stuff happen, my previous laptop crashed and there were weird files, as I tried to trouble shoot what happened, file names came up with my name, my sons and my daughters and I have no files by those names…it made me wonder again if he was trying to hack into my computer. paranoid? Most likely!
Ok, gotta do some work today! Thanks again for everything. really.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 7:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear China girl,
Don’t worry about the paragraphs it just makes it easier for us old timers with poor eye sight to read and keep it straight.
Okay, get you a safe, a fire safe, they can be had for about $150 and have it BOLTED TO YOUR FLOOR or wall, hide it bck inside a closet as well. They are about one ft. by one ft. square but hold a lot of papers and so on. If it is bolted down (the tops of the bolts are inside the safe which is locked, AND I DOUBT THE PERSON ENTERING YOUR HOUSE IS A SAFE CRACKER….and if it is bolted they can’t haul it off. Turn some cardboard box over it to make it look like something stored there.
Lock all windows AND have them screwed down (you can do this yourself if you are handy and if not get a male friend with a good drill to do it. It will only leave minior holes in the woodwork which you can repair when you leave the house or apartment.
Also, put sticks in the window or sliding glass door so the stick will keep it from being raised or slid side to side.
Get DEAD BOLTS for your front and rear doors—there is a thing called a “bump key” which is a set of burgular keys, they are available cheap on the internet, and allow the person who has them to open ALMOST any lock. make SURE that you get BUMP-KEY PROOF locks.
Also, get you a “nanny cam” and hide it in your house and turn it on, or give it a motion activation, so that anyone inside your house is RECORDED but doesn’t know they are being recorded.
These precautions may not be necessary, but I figure if he has been there 2 x he will come back again. BE PREPARED. Then if you get proof you can charge him with breaking and entering felony!
As far as computer is concerned. Take your new lap top to a place that can scan it and check it out if you are not computer savy enough to do so.
Then use that computer for other stuff, but keep your old or a cheap back up or one of those note book Don’t hook your good computer up to the e mail at all.
JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PARANOID DOESN’T MEAN SOMEONE ISN’T OUT TO GET YOU.
Continue to keep your journal and TAKE PHOTOS of her when you visit her to document any inappropriate clothing or dirt. Also make sure you get the name of the person who monitors you.
As for your son still being “friends” with the P, well There are two ways to look at that I think.
Number one, if you are my friend and olur “mutual friend” Sam beats me up for no reason, or burns my house down, if you continue to be Sam’s “friend”—-what does that say about your respect and concern for me?
Number two: My son is 26 years old and he is an adult, he can choose his own friends and has a right to do so.
Well,, I have been in that situation and I chose NUMBER 2, but in my case at least that was NOT a good choice. When all hell broke loose and some of the Psychopaths in our family and the “Trojan horse Psychopath” were arrested, son C was all apologetic and ohhhhh so sorrry he had not believed me before and had believed the Ps—-but later on, When he lied to me again (for the Ump-teenth time and I am essentially NO Contact with him now except for business and by e mail then) I realized this was a MOVIE I HAD SEEN BEFORE. In the past multiple times he had sided with the psychopaths that he KNEW AT THE TIME WERE RIPPING ME OFF, doing illegal and immoral things, and until the entire episode blew up in everyone’s face he sided with them.
Well, you know, I figure if someone tries to seriously hurt me and you are either not willing to acknowledge my injury or the person who did it, then I must not mean very much to you—that is until YOU NEED ME—and then I am a “prophet” and a “saint.” Nah, My friends are NOT friends with my enemies. I will not TRUST anyone who hangs out with those that are actively or have actively hurt me.
In your case, maybe your son is duped, but I would not trust him, I think you are right not to trust him or anyone else for that matter who is “friends” with your X.
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 7:57pm
ErinBrock says:
http://courthouseforum.com/index.php
I don’t remember where you posted this…..but the above is a court ‘report’ for all courts in the US. Judges etc…
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 8:56pm
OxDrover says:
EB, thanks darling! You are so smart. I wish I had a brain that wasn’t like Swiss cheese!
You know, the more I think about it, the more I see that lots of people have “sided” with the Ps and still claimed to be my friends, and either they trivalized or devalued my feelings in doing so, (and remaining “friends” with the evil doer) or devalued me.
Not any more, if you are friends with my ENEMY you are NOT my friend. Period. You makes your decisions and choices. Me or them. I used to think I was being “open minded” by not insisting that others NOT be friends with my enemies if they wanted to be friends with me, but as it is I think I was so OPEN MINDED MY BRAINS FELL OUT. LOL
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Tuesday, 24 August 2010 @ 11:33pm
jeannie812 says:
The website would have been a lifesaver in my divorce. Except for one thing. My ex doesn’t own a computer and has no interest in such a thing. The courts were catering to him, and would have said he doesn’t have to.
Then the court would have looked at me and told me to “act like an adult for once, and get along with him” cause that is what they said to me throughout the divorce.
He would call on the false pretense of wanted to talk to our kids. But, he was really calling to talk to me. He began describing his girlfriends body and I hung up on him.
He told the court that he can’t talk to me like an adult cause I hang up on him. The court believed him.
And, even if he was computer literate he would have refused cause he didn’t want witnesses. He missed his rush of beating me down and wanted to abuse me from afar. He would have made up some smooth excuse of why he didn’t want that site involved. He probably would have said there is no problem except her. (me)
The website is a great idea. But, only if you get a judge who listens, and attorneys who listen.
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Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 12:35am
chinagirl says:
Hi again, OxDrover,
Really great advice…I like the motion detection nanny cam idea. and the bump key proof dead bolts which I had never heard of. I am wishing I could go to “PI” school and learn some tricks! i actually tried to call a local PI to see if they could help in some way…gave them a bit of the story…but no, they appeared clueless.
As for my son. I have always wondered why he wouldn’t give up his relationship for spath. He knows a lot of what spath has done but he has never really seemed like he believed me. I don’t quite get it. My son told me he never really liked my ex yet something just doesn’t feel quite right. I expect my son to side with me and about 2 years ago i quit telling my son things because I felt my ex was getting info that no one else knew….but if nothing else I need to go with my gut and my gut says trust no one. And I don’t. I am like you ErinBrock….I trust no one until they prove themselves. Sad, but true.
I feel so much better today. the first time in days actually and I had been spining down into a severe depression. I had been praying and praying and begging for help and viola! I found this site. Since reading articles and the encouragement I have made some decisions. And I have decided to start responding and acting and not sitting here immobilized in my fear and pain and self pity. Tomorrow my daughter is getting a big package of things I got for her and made for her, including letters and a journal for her to write to me in….and then I am going to work out and eat healthy. One day at a time. i have gone too long in this pathetic pity party and I am a smart woman, not a push over. I have been too nice and too naive….and I’m done with it. I am keeping my mouth shut about this stuff to everyone except this site and my attorney when I find one I actually believe can help me. And I will work on getting my practice more successful. I have just started it and my fears have been that spath will try to contact my clients and sabotage me. I had not put up my website yet because of that fear and my attorney told me to go ahead and do what I need to do for my practice and he said he will be sending a letter to spath’s attorney basically saying he is on board and we are watching everything. I am not sure yet if he is the right attorney and well, Idon’t have enough to retain him yet anyway….but one thing at a time.
First I get myself healthy and thinking clearly and contact my little sweet heart daily and then go from there.
Ok, time for sleep. If I can sleep. I have too many nightmares and have a hard time sleeping because i am scared to sleep. PTSD? YES!
Thank you again everyone for all the advice and encouragement. I love the idea that from this day forward I will be responding in ways that my spath is not expecting and I will remain empowered and alive!
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Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 1:34am
ErinBrock says:
Chinagirl:
PI school is right here on LF!
Camera’s are CHEAP! Get one!
So are alarms-get one!
A digi recorder and a digi camera in your purse at all times is a great tool…..just get use to keeping them in the purse.
I second oxy’s advise on keeping an eye on the 26 yr old son.
When I was in the heat of ‘it’……I cut EVERYONE off. I didn’t trust a sole.
It was a really sad state to be…..but I HAD no choice to ‘clean house’.
My own family turned against me…….who’d a thunk?
I was going in for surgery and had just had 2 strokes etc…..and the dr’s insisted I needed an emergency contact.
I didn’t even trust my kids, because they had been brain washed when they were kidnapped………
I HAD NO ONE! I thought….damn, i’m gonna give power of attorney over to someone, and i’m gonna be done it at surgery.
I took a chance with a cousins wife…..THANK GOD I DID!
I was diagnosed with cancer at that surgery……and spath called the hospital and acted really weird……she answered the phone and was BLOWN AWAY by his lack of concern for me. WIthin 20 minutes of that call…..I got a call from a neighbor saying he was breaking into the house via the 3rd story window……with trucks outside…..the house was ransacked as I was swallowing a cancer diagnosis!
Whodathunk?
Well…..cousin wife saw it all…..first hand……and she was just so taken back by the reality……she took that info back to my mothers twin sister (her mil) and no one doubted her.
Execpt my mother…….
It was just the exposure I needed….
Like she says to this day…..I never doubted your stories, but they were just so over the top……I couldn’t put my head around them……you were with him for 28 years…..was it that bad…..she said, when she saw what she saw…..and brought me home to the mess…..knowing we had the house all cleaned up and set up for my recovery…..and what was missing…..it was the most pathetic display she’d ever seen.
Not even mentioning the fact she had to park my car (she used) at another downtown hotel, because he was cruising the parking lot of the hospital looking to take my car while I was in. We watched him from my hospital room!
But…..i’ll tell ya…..I like oxy……don’t associate with anyone who associates with spath. I never gave peeps ultimatums…..I CHOSE! I just pulled away.
I learned who was still in contact through my ‘recon’ mission. And it was funny all the peeps who called me and claimed they didn’t have contact with him……..and I knew they did!
He had a cell phone I paid for…..I set up……and I had the VM code to…..and I checked regularly! So…….even my parents claimed to the whole family……WE DON”T SPEAK TO HIM…..as I had recorded messages from them.
One time, I played a message my mother left for another cousin, who was insistant mother was NC….I told her….it’s a BOLD FACED LIE! Played the cozy message with date/time and callers number…..and she was SHOCKED! Couldn’t get around that one…..
So….I knew…..no doubt.
But….even now…..he still stalks us occasionally and makes weird attempts……I’ve even changed plumbers and other vendors with my business….if there is ANY doubt they can be conned (knowingly or not) into revealing info on us.
ANY INFO……like yeah…she’s still breathing.
CUT EM OFF!
So many people just don’t want to ‘be involved’…..but little do they realize…..spaths will always involve whomever they deem they need….on any level.
Spath involved the kids at the high school to torment and harass my eldests.
Even the people at the meat market looked at me through one eye for about a year.
So…..i never pressed any of them. Because I always knew…..he’d be exposed! They’d learn the truth on their own…….and sure enough…..
In April of this year….I got a call from a news reporter…..asking for spath…..saying he wanted a comment on the 2 felony drug charges he was facing in XXX state.
Well….when that came out in the newspaper……and ALL over the internet……Huhummmmmmmm EXPOSURE!!!!
HA!
That was the week I went out into town, cruised every grocery store, hung out at community mixers and made myself SEEN!
It was GLORIOUS!
All the one eyed lookers who were told I was crazy, mentally ill, and had faked my cancer……now saw a whole different light!
It all came full circle.
We only need to worry about our own behaviors….this is the important VITAL issue here……
The spaths masks will slip….they will fall, and they will be exposed….and the truth WILL reveal itself.
To our kids, to our families, to our friends, to the courts……
It’s so not worth going around explaining ourselves…..we do look crazy….
We just need to do all we can NOT to do anything that can be misconstrued…..in any way.
We need to follow through with all court orders and hold them to the flame.
If you can call your daughter…..call her every night at x time….
Send emails and make sure you copy yourself.
STAY CLEAN!
Keep your nose out of ANY trouble.
Commit to yourself…..no matter what or how low you get…..there are certain things that are NOT an option.
Learn self control,patience and be tenacious.
Decide YOUR boundaries and STICK TO EM LIKE GLUE!
Drive the 2.5 hours to attend ANYTHING YOU CAN. Sports games, school plays….whatever……ask for that permission.
Ask for permission (if needed ) to call nightly…
It’s important you remain connected to your daughter.
Kids will ‘move’ on quickly……so don’t give him that chance.
Send her pics of you, an animal, a funny place you two enjoyed together……..keep those memories alive and well in her.
Counter control the effects of his alienation on her…..but do it nicely, and in a loveing manner.
FOLLOW THROUGH with ANY and ALL court orders……you MUST go that length. Come hell or high water……or you lose your validity in the courts.
I’m glad you are feeling better…..support and validation are important part of the healing and giving us strength.
We ‘get it’…….and we are here for ya!
You are NOT a victim…..YOU ARE A SURVIVOR!!!!
Claim it!
Throw him for a loop……With a smile and boundaries.
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Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 2:04am
bluejay says:
chinagirl,
Your precious daughter will love receiving the package from her mother. She will be blessed by all the good surprises that you have for her. Be sure to do great things for yourself too, lifting yourself up when needed. Peace.
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Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 10:03am
chinagirl says:
Wow, EB-what a nightmare you lived through. I understand how you feel about getting a cancer diagnosis while your spath is ransacking your house. My spath did the same kinds of things….act concerned but had an agenda…the only times he was nice to me or to my parents even when I was married to him still was when he wanted something-usually money. he actually tried to get my parents to turn their entire estate over to him and we’d ‘take care of them’ for the rest of their years…Well, he was so smoke and mirrors around money, made everything so confusing that luckily my parents and i said NO WAY. Thank god. About three years into marriage I came back from a weekend trip in the city to get away from him and clear my head a bit….and he and our therapist had made a unilateral decision to take me off all the financial accounts! He was so happy and so loving and complimentary…took me to dinner and laid that bomb on me. I was in shock. i was pissed. He was smug. And I felt betrayed by our therapist. Blind sided. He said i spent too much money. Are you kidding? He spent 5k on kayak, 8k on a bicycle that was built for him…thousands on clothes that i picked out so he’d look professional and up to date…and I had to shop at old navy. Nothign wrong with old navy but the point is if I wanted anything, even a sand box for my daughter he’d have a fit. I built my daughters who play yard by hand. Wheeled in small rocks, built a sand box, made a climbing tree….myself! So, i come back and find myself out of the loop financially. When we’d get together on sundays to do a budget he’d always make a mess and then say, Oh, come back later something isn’t right, or he’d say “If YOU CAN DO IT BETTER THAN YOU TAKE CARE OF THE MONEY” and if I even said yes ok, he’d freak. So, I realized later that he was hiding money, and then he gave me an “allowance”…it was sickening. I felt degraded..and humiliated. the entire town knew he did this…our accountant, friends, banker…I felt like a child. I lived before I met him and after my divorce from my son’s dad for 15 years…I know how to take care of myself! he treated me like a silly child.
How I have come to this place…feeling so low…is just sad. I don’t want to feel like I need to scramble and fix my mistake…that is what made me make mistakes the first time around…but I am feeling I lost 5 years being emotional. And afraid. But i was also helping take care of ailing parents and going to grad school. Arghh….!
I read what you write EB and I am afraid of losing my daughter. I have tried to call andn they won’t call me back. So I’ll continue to document and do what I need for her and start my trek down to her town weekly. I have fears here…why is that? You know the one thing i wanted was another child, more than anything, and I have lost her. For now. she is my sweetheart and it pains me to hear her cry for me. Sometimes I wonder if she’d be better off without me so she wouldn’t hurt so much but I know that is stupid. I’d never leave her I just don’t want her to hurt. But I can’t control that. I can only love her and she knows I adore her. She is a very smart little girl. Brilliant actually, with instincts…she gets things. I hope she gets him soon. At times I think I’ve lost her and at times I think she hates him. I know he speaks badly about me to her…and makes her believe I have done something really bad. I hate being on defensive and am sick of trying to explain things that aren’t true.
I know how awful it is to find family betraying you. My brother, when my mom was dying, had already put a plan into place. I see it now and I am so stupid because i don’t think like that…I never would have done what he did. It was very confusing when i went to talk to doctors (parents lived 5 hours away by car) the doctor told me he wasn’t comfortable talking to me..I was confused and said what do you mean? Then I told him my dad has alzheimer’s and he stopped in his tracks and said what? I didn’t know that….so apparently my brother didn’t tell him my dad has alzheimer’s but did tell the doctor that i was to have no information about my mother and that I wasn’t to be involved. And at the same time my parents were begging me to get my brother out of their lives…he had been raging and threatening my sick father who was terrified of him and calling my poor mom while she was in hospital yelling and cussing at her….she was dying! So as I try to get guardianship and fix things and figure out what to do…my dad was also dx with cancer right then and I was just overwhelmed…all of a sudden adult protective services is investigating me! After my brother abandoned my father in the middle of the night and there was proof…hospital and neighbors knew and I was called up to fix things….my brother and my spath colluded and turned it around against me…People around me don’t get that this could happen… All of a sudden my brother puts a restraining order against me so I can’t see my father….this while my father is begging me to not ever leave him. He is adorable and I love my father so much and things have become a mess…because my spath got a chance to help my brother and with his md credentials the adult protective services treated me like a criminal…you wouldn’t believe how they talked to me…and although they came to my dads house and saw he was clean, the house was immaculate, my dad was eating a gourmet breakfast (I take better care of him and my daughter then I do myself! LOL) they still ended up siding with my brother….even after the neighbors who is ex FBI told them that when I got there then good things happened but they were afraid my brother was dangerous and is dangerous, could kill us….so, how does this happen with both my brother and my ex? I am sitting here baffled at the last 6 months…everything I did to help was turned around…I get back to my work and i got fired…my spath called my work and lied about me (I do have a pending lawsuit for wrongful termination)….so even as i write this I think who could believe it? My friends keep saying what did you do? My son says, “I don’t know what to believe” and he was there with me! He saw it, he heard my father say he was afraid of my brother. I just don’t get it! And my problem is I am trying to make sense out of illness and it is impossible.
It is so hard to tell this story…I want to write a book, probably like we all do! Because the story of my ex inlaws is hysterically funny and ill…a great film noir! and then to add in pornography, affairs, a physician who speaks in tongues, prays with his patients, was written up in the local paper for being a god…and he rages, is abusive, raped me, had inappropriate behaviors with our daughter….addicted to Ambien and operated on patients with no recollection….and he wouldn’t NOT take the Ambien when he was on call…there is alcoholism and addiction (mil and fil who is dentist) and my own recovery…it just goes on and on like the crazy story it is!!
I had one thread of sanity left when I found this site. this past weekend was my lowest point…I thought I was going to need SSRI’s to get through any more…and I still might. I just am grateful to be here among people who understand, believe and can help. I, too, get your stories…and empathize. I had no idea so many were affected like this. It helps to know it wasn’t just me…and as I’ve said before so many times these past five years I have thought it was all me..that maybe my spath wasn’t an spath…but I know my heart and I know the truth.
Thanks for listening….again!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 1:26pm
ErinBrock says:
Chinagirl:
Thank GOD your parents had the awareness NOT to trust him with their future!
The reality in life is……we all have a ’story’. None more aweful or impactful then the others……
If we walk this earth…..we have a story.
I think we are raised with a fantasy of thinking life is fair.
We all learn these lessons the hard way……IT”S NOT!
I’m trying to explain this to my son, who’s insisting he learns everything the hard way.
We encounter lazy, bad, manipulative and bad peeps wherever we go in life. It’s just the way it is.
I’ve got to back away and set my boundaries stiff…..and not waver.
It kills me to watch him screw up……lose jobs, make poor decisions etc…..I can see it all coming…..he can’t.
The only way change can take place is when we take personal responsibiity for our actions.
When we are feeling bad about our choices and the bad endings……that’s when we will change our futures.
Correct our actions or beliefs for the future.
It applies to all of us!
In regards to your D. Expect the ’shield’……expect no cooperation…..you must find the holes in his ‘game’. You must follow through, to show the courts your actions and expectations of a relationshp with D. And give him NOTHING. Percieved or real.
We all do things we’d change……and quite frankly, the courts will not hold too tightly to setbacks…..as long as they are changed.
In this period, you have attained your further degree…..you are on the right track.
As I was told by a judge…..we are NOT in the business of breaking up families.
The spath did this…..and you must counter control ALL info being provided to the courts.
Document yourself and ‘build’ a case.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 3:33pm
chinagirl says:
You are so right. I always thought life should be fair. wow! how naive. I also thought the judicial system was fair. I can’t really rant about something I know very little about but at this point i do not feel I have been given a fair shot throught the system and despite written professional documentation of my spath’s porn addiction, raging at me, raping me etc no one gave it any merit. But things that happened to me in the past 20 years ago was brought up in court and used against me. i guess money talks.
Tough love is hard isn’t it? Raising our children. I feel lucky my son has done well but I am sad that he still has a weird connection to my ex and I wonder if it has to do with money…Hate to say it but I do think as a self preservation he knew my ex was helping pay his college and he only had one year left when I left spath….my son needed and wanted to finish so I am happy he was able to get what he could out of spath…but its not as if my son, who is very very close to his little sis, has been using any relationship with spath to see his sister. I want to say ‘he is young’ but he is 26, not that young…although he bought a house last year and has a good job…he also lost his fiance in a car accident as I mentioned..he is probably in a bit of ptsd himself going through all of this…his grandmother died, too. (My mom)…but I am still uncertain of his loyalties and it feels strange to shut everyone out. But I have to. I have had too many people hurt me and my own family trashed me as well. they don’t even know me. Haven’t seen me in years but i get to be the scapegoat. I am the only one in our entire family with a degree and I have three yet I am perceived as the sick one and the loser? Not even close. But it ticks me off anyway.
One thing is I need to figure out is how do I not act defensive about everything? When I am accused of things I didn’t do do I explain it? Or do I leave it alone and then when its my turn to talk so to speak I just tell my story? I have been making mistakes I feel by being very defensive and running around saying “No, I didn’t do that!” and I look like a maniac! What do you think?
I don’t want contact with spath so what I have done is make a new email address that I will use just for spath and his wife and his attorney if needed…and have tried to set up contact with spath’s wife and told her i want to set up time three times a week that I can call daughter every time…so there is no phone tag and no disappointments etc…that way it is kind of set and expected. I think that is a better solution than me trying to call and never getting a return, or if I do it is not when I asked time wise and I’m with clients etc….and my cell doesn’t work well in office so i have to go outside and it makes it not a smooth thing. So I am trying to set a few things up that can be consistent so i can be solution oriented rather than problem oriented and I told his wife that i am sending package to her office and she can open it and check it out if she is more comfortable that way but that i want to make sure my daughter gets it and i am also recommending that I start a journal and that my daughter and I journal back and forth every 1 or 2 weeks…I write for a week, she writes for a week and we talk about oru days and our thoughts etc. And I explained I am waiting for judges paperwork before I can see the therapist who will supervise our visits…he won’t do it without that paperwork and I haven’t recieved it…I asked my ex to give therapist a copy but he won’t of course. So i started a dialogue today with spath’s wife who is a bit more reasonable and hopefully she is starting to see signs of illness with him….she has gone along with some weird things that he has done…I watched them come up during the divorce five years ago and take back the four runner even though I said I would drop it for him…but l ike stealth warriors they “stole” it and flew out of the gate with it…and i stood there watching and laughing and had text him saying “Hey, glad you got the four runner….My friends and I just watched you come up and grab it even though I was going to drop it off for you like was requested” and the fact she got caught in that kind of behavior makes me wonder where she is at…probably believing that I wouldn’t bring it to him…but I wasn’t given the chance to! that kind of thing…and I think EB or OxDrover you said that some day she will see the signs. His first wife emailed her 3 days before their wedding saying be careful…the wife did respond and it was quite an ordeal I think the day of the wedding…my ex was pissed and yet the wedding went on as planned. We just couldn’t NOT warn her…you know? I knew it wouldn’t work and it hurt me more than anything because it pissed him off more at me…but woman to woman we went back and forth trying to decide if it would help at all…and we actually told her not to tell him but that if she married him to keep these emails and call us in the future and we would help her. she has fallen into the trap of believing what he says about me and i did the same about his first wife. his first wife is amazing. I’d marry her! LOL. She really is incredible. Smart, gorgeous, a go getter…she lives next to some famous musicians and is really involved in the domestic violence stuff…and he portrayed her just like he portrays me…inept, sick, mental, adulturer. he projects is what he does.
When you write D does that mean daughter? the last paragraph above i assume you are talking about my plan for my daughter….
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 4:08pm
ErinBrock says:
CHinagirl:
Yes, D=daughter….sorry about that.
At this point….when you open dialogue to new wife……keep it about D ONLY!!!! Even if she tries to provoke you into conversing…..D only!
Decide on a new wife ‘tone’ you’ll use at every conversation…. with a smile, friendly….direct and say what you want…..not need….want. Commit to that tone regardless of how she picks on you or leads a convo. take it right back to nice/friendly/smile.
If you can’t handle that ……get off the phone for that moment. Tell her you’ll need to call her back.
Make her look ‘forward’ to your talks…..and remember it’s NOT girltalk! It’s D talk. No snyd remarks, nothing that puts her on defense…..Not kiss ass….just professional with a friendly twist. think of someone you know who communicates in this manner and study them……and do it too!
Be gracious of her ‘kindness’ to D. Refer to ex as first name only…..
Well, i can meet Jerry at the park at noon with D, that’d be great.
Bring her ‘back around’…..to….hmmmm…..she doesn’t seem that bad?!?!?!?!
This takes 100% of the time……..one slip up and your back to 0. Start over.
Defensive;
Okay……heres my take. I realized i had spent the past 28 years of my life defending myself against CRAZY, weird things……nothing I had ever thoguht about let alone done.
It was so long a time of doing this…..one day…..I realized…there is nothing I can do to make them/him believe me.
And why does he accuse me of having an affair??? etc..
Well…it dawned on me the projection!
When I stopped defending myself…..I realized that everything he was accusing me of…..HE WAS DOING!!!!
So…..I started listening….’taking’ the punches so to speak….with NO reaction.
I wrote down all the accusations and started looking in that direction.
All the times he accused JR at 10 of being gay……well guess what……guess what spath was hiding…..YEP…..
The accusations are to keep us off balance…..worrying about US……STEP BACK….and see it for what it is…
Well into my divorce….I told my attorney….I am NOT going to address anythign he acuses me of…..UNLESS HE PROVIDES DOCUMENTATION.
I won’t acknowledge any of it…..my attorney quivered.
He accused me of draining tha account. My attorney felt compelled to respond. I said…NO!
I brought to him the bank statements showing SPATHS withdrawal of the money He accused me of withdrawing….spaths signiture and all. A cashiers check made out to spath and all……AND a deposit slip to another bank showing (on the same date) a deposit into his sole account the same amount!
Okay……so…..ya get it now?
I could spend a fortune and keep running in circles defending myself…..we all could.
STOP!
Decide what you want……and how your gonna get it.
Don’t let anyone else…..no judge, no attorneis….treat you unfairly and spend your money and keep you away from D.
The one who strikes first…….wins.
Think of a fight with kids…..no one sees the first punch…..they see the retaliator….the defendor…….and who get’s punished…..the defender.
Every time.
So…..be the first to throw the ‘legal’ and documented blow.
It also throws em off balance…..they think they know you….they think they can predict your reaction……give NONE!
Shake it up.
I studied the spath…..I put together all the peices of my life…..and the lies and how I fell for them all.
THEN…..I turend it all around and used the same tactics back on him-Backspath……..but I did it with a smile and professionalism……not cocky, in your face, spit on him in public……..I let him take that roll.
Portray what you want to the courts…..WITH backup!
Your not a bad person…..your a person who was stepped on and pounced on by a spath….who exploited your slipup.
That was all he needed to run.
Defending constantly makes us look crazy.
When someone is always saying…..I didn’t do that….I didn’t do that either…..it makes us look like a victim….
WE MUST APPEAR TO BE THE SURIVOR THAT WE ARE.
Own our mistakes and take the responsibility. No one likes a perfect person……people always will try to find fault.
Go OFFENSIVE!!!
BUT THE EFFECT WAS THE SAME!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 6:20pm
chinagirl says:
Thanks EB, you are smart, wise…sadly no doubt you had to learn a lot of this by going through it, too…
My concern for me is what exactly you said: the one who strikes first wins. When I left him five years ago I was on the offense. I found an attorney. I had moved to our condo three hours away, so different city/county. The attorney said ‘let’s wait and file for divorce for a few months…let’s get you more established here and your daugher established’. I said, Ok and enrolled my daugher in Montessori school, myself in school, made friends, set up play dates etc. My attorney was a bit bitchy to me and I didn’t have a good feel but didn’t know what else to do. I also had a letter spath had written talking about his pornography and about speaking in tonuges that he had started doing. weird stuff. I thought Yep, I am doing ok here. My concern had been since he took me off accounts I would get nothing. anyway, all of a sudden he is giving me a letter saying he is not filing for divorce…a strange letter…but then I found out he had filed in his city/county. My attorney yelled at me “Why did you tell him you had an attorney?” I told her I didn’t. I then found he had a PI on me and he had that computer key stroke monitor (which I still didn’t know about for several more months…really had no idea what was happening here) and once he filed in his county, small town…I think that was it for me. I just didn’t realize it. A very conservative, good ol boys club with him being a superstar new kid, despite the fact I set him up socially, designed his office yada yada…
So, mistake one. Then the stuff he had done while married…I realize was a set up now. He had taken me off the accounts. I couldn’t do anything about it except leave him and at that time I was not ready…I was stilll in save marriage mode. he had done a number on bringing down my self esteem and makingi me feel like a loser. He had never been accountable for porn, affair, women, spending, addiction etc. projection is his game. I still didn’t know it. So, off the accounts and he would then say “Oh, go ahead and write a check for the lawn guy” etc and i’d take a check and sign his name. I did this a long time…2 years at least. In court then he’d say that I was a forger, stole money….and I had nothing to prove that I had written checks except the bank statements…and all I could say was ‘he told me to do that and if he didn’t want me to why did he wait until now to say something” but he already won, you see? He set me up to look like a forger. and of course I wasn’t perfect because after I left and moved (not divorced yet and not legal separation) I took our (and it had both our names) credit card and spent about 10k…I was so pissed from being controlled for years financially and I just went nuts. I took myself on a vacation for a few days, bought some clothes, ate out…all the stuff I hadn’t been able to do while married. I was just pissed. so, that made me look bad in court and it was impossible to explain what he had done in our marriage…the abuse and the control was impossible to show. The entire thing was a nightmare and all i ended up doign was backpedaling…my entire offense was gone. As I said i was so emotional and so pissed and just had no freaking idea this was what was going on…this kind of spath thing. I didn’t realize it for another several years…Geez, I must be slow and I thought I was smart. I was gullible. and my thought process for so long was save the marriage. Divorce is not an option. he would say the same. yet he had a plan he had put in place a long time before I realized. Long before I left him. He was doing things to push me out…do you think? I am really asking because I kept wondering why the behavior was so bad and the coldness and blank looks were there and that he would keep doing the things he did….he wanted ME to leave. I would look bad, he would be a poor victim who tried to help his addict wife, despite my five years in recovery and the fact i was the healthy one. And I fucked up working out of emotion and not understanding and offensive smarts.
So, I have been on defense for five years. I just pray I can turn it around. The judge hates me. She thinks I am a unfit loser mother which is so far from the reality. I am a much better parent and even the custody evaluator said he was very uncomfortable with D in a one on one setting. He is! i taught him how to parent! I taught him how to love. I brought the laughter and fun into our house. The kids and my sons friends all came over because of me…i heard them say how weird spath was….he is weird. he has no sense of humor and doesn’t have any male friends. He doesn’t know how to just be. He is incongruent in himself…you know?
So, the question…well, the answer is that I do what you are telling me…and I will believe me. I did just that in the email to his wife today. Nothing but polite, respectful. I have always been that way to her. I have nothing against her. she doesn’t know any better…except having an affair with my husband and on her fiance. she moved to our town and was engaged…then soon she wasn’t! I left spath and he was with her. she was a traget maybe….we were having problems, he met her at a dinner for medical people and I bet anything he targeted her. she could have babies she is 15 years younger than me (I am 9 years older than spath), he could set up his life with her, kick me out, get custody of my daughter by having a home already set up. I just didn’t have any idea because he kept saying Divorce is not an option. And when I started to leave he begged me not to leave him. I read somewhere on this site that is what they do at the end. At that point I was at a point of no return….I was done. I had had it. No more books, no more church, no more therapy….I told him he had to fix himself I couldn’t fix him and I realized I had been trying and it wasn’t my job. He said “I stood by you when you got sober from vicodin” and I said “No you didn’t…you were in your porn and sex addiction…you couldn’t care if i was doing vicodin or not…” and that truth pissed him off.
It just baffles me to put this together…It is starting to gel, to make sense. Trying to prove it just seems impossible since he has already won part of the battle.
Another commonality is the sex stuff I am reading about. The porn, I know he had at least 2 affairs if not more…he had an affair 2 times while we were dating (hindsite) and once while engaged (hindsite), he had a serious addiction to internet porn and the only time he was upset about it was when he thought his medical clinic found out he was viewing porn because one day they shut his computer down. what did he do? He called me yelling at me telling me it was my fault! How funny. I said, how is this my fault? You checked my email and opened the email (that had the bill for his viewing the teen porn, sicko) and I said sorry, that doesn’t fly. You are the one who looked at the porn and bought the site, not me. Other than that he couldn’t care less if it affected me or my D.
So…lots to learn here. And I realize I am writing a ton. I apologize…It is like discovering the plot to a movie that baffled me. And yet it is my life and I am trying to save my life. God, who knew I’d be here at my age…dealing with something so horrendous after all I have lived through already. I know, poor me…don’t mean that, just that I really need to get my shit together. and get strong and tough. No more wimpy whiny nice guy. I hear you all say how you set boundaries, can’t trust, can’t let anyone in. It’s so true. And I have to be very professional, not emotional. My son’s father’s wife is like that I am can emulate her. she is really good about not letting peole in, putting up boundaries. I am too ‘nice’, too helpful. f__k that!
Thanks!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 10:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear China girl,
Sweetie, don’t apologize for writing a lot, write as much as you need to and those of us who are here at the time will answer you as best we can. Sometimes our ideas are different, sometimes the same, but in the end, you are the one who has to make the decision on what to do and how to do it. We are the “life coaches” but you are the TEAM and you are the one playing the game. We can just give you some ideas and stand on the side lines and say “Yea! Go, team go!!!” (((Hugs)))
Go back through the old articles in the archive and read them, I’ve read most of them, one surfaces every once in a while I missed but I think I’ve read most of them and still I go back and re-read some of them. Good stuff! ((((Hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 25 August 2010 @ 10:58pm
chinagirl says:
First, am I supposed to be posting on a different page? I was sent to this page by Donna initially when she found out about my daughter and I have stayed here….I assume it is based on topic?
I’ll post here for now….
I was thinking a lot today, reading a lot last night and then talking to a friend. Besides taking an offensive stance and doing what EB and OxDrover and Donna have been telling me (and thank you again and again) I really need to take stock and be responsible for my part in this. I realized this after talking about how I met my spath and how we got together and then ultimately married. WowAs I was telling this story to a friend today the red flags that I ignored then are glaring now. I would hope they’d be glaring now and that I would be better equipped to take better care of myself. But hindsite is only helpful if you (I) pay attention to the lessons. I always spout this and tell my clients this: “You teach people how to treat you” Most of them say, “What?” but then when they think about it they get it and agree. The other thing I believe is men tell us exactly what their intentions are a lot of the time but I didn’t pay attention to what he was really saying…I heard what I wanted to hear. My part with my spath is I allowed many behaviors to continue for a very long time before I stood up to him. Even before we married. I was talking about several very crazy incidents that happened before we got engaged and how many times he backed out of promises and invitations (invited me to go to his home town, I bought plane ticket and new dress and he backed out. Invited me to memphis for thanksgiving,I bought tickets, he backed out, I went to seattle instead, he asked me to marry him twice and changed his mind-said he was too scared and unsure of himself…well he was telling the truth right there. he was unsure about himself. Yes and I should have been, too. and lastly…slept with two women while we were dating but i believed his lies that he only kissed them…) etc etc etc. How much has to happen before I look up, wake up and take a stand for myself? My god. It is embarrassing.
So my part is I allowed a lot of bad behavior to happen and didn’t set good boundaries. And if I had maybe I wouldn’t have married him…maybe he would have bailed knowing he couldn’t run me over….maybe i would have been healthier emotionally and would never have even dated him! I wish. But what I know is I am healthier now. And even though I just found this site I have been working on myself and my issues…and with this site I will be even better equipped and stronger to deal with this nutcase. But I have to put those boundaries out there all the time….not allow bad behavior to occur..well it can occur it just can’t get by me!…with anyone…friends, family, prospective dates, clients even. If I treat myself with respect and love and self care then the bad behavior won’t be a part of the equation. And by understanding my part in this I won’t remain a victim. Maybe I was victimized for a little bit but I am not going to stay there.
I hope that made sense…and I am certainly only talking about myself…no one else.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 26 August 2010 @ 8:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear ChinaGirl,
You can post on any thread. Usually the first day or two people stay on a topic on a thread, but then it sometimes/usually veers off on to other topics, or “chases rabbits.” Or is like an ADHD child—LOOK, BUTTERFLY!
You are taking responsibility for your part in allowing the abuse to continue and in ignoring the red flags. To me that is the FIRST and BIGGEST HUMP to cross. It is NOT blaming the victim for their own victimization, but accepting our own choices and the consequences.
It is “manning up” to what we have chosen to do which got us in the situation for that person who DID ABUSE us to continue to do so.
DENIAL ain’t a river in EGYPT, so we need to get our canoes out of it and start paddling them.
Okay, so now you have BOINKED yourself over the head a time or two (or ten!) for being so “stooooopid” but not it is time to FORGIVE YOURSELF for being HUMAN. And, to quit being embarassed. There are LOTS OF SMART and educated folks on this blog, People with lots more letters after their names than you and I, with lots more experience and education and they got bamboozled so we are in GOOD COMPANY, it was not because we were dumb or “stoooopid” at all, it is because we had an excess of empathy and compassion and caring for OTHERS, and a shortage of caring for ourselves. Now we’re gonna change that.
We’re going to start caring for and nurturing ourselves, and to love ourselves, and give to ourselves. Gosh, isn’t that a wonderful concept?!!!! LOL
I wish I had thought about that concept 50 years ago or more! LOL (((((Hugs)))) post where ever you are comfortable, or just chime in any where. No one here is going to slam you for “doing somethign wrong.” the Only rules around here are “don’t flame or name call others, just be polite, but disagreement is okay, just be polite. Not too much to remember. This is the best group of supportive people I’ve found anywhere on the web. I’m glad you are here. If LF does even 1/10th for you as much as it has done for me, it will be wonderful! (((((Hugs))))) God bless.
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 1:16am
bulletproof says:
chinagirl
You can look at “your part” in this till the cows come home, and it’s a good opportunity to sharpen up a bit…but ultimately this was NOT your fault. He SET OUT to harm you knowingly and willingly…who stands a chance unless you are aware of how their particular evil operates…I knew all about manipulative, exploitative men before I met the P ….it wasn’t so much ignoring red flags…( show me a relationship that does not have them) but HOW GOOD HE WAS at acting the wholesome package….the regular sleaze bags are easy to spot…these ones are not.
No harm in looking at all that boundary stuff…but I’m beginning to think that it was almost destiny to go through this experience to learn about evil and how it’s not like the stereotypical version
that there was no way of knowing he was bad until further down the road…love is a covered dish anyway….you have to take a leap of faith anyway….
the truth of this experience is….that relationship down the road that you think is perfect…they have 2 kids, he is so good to her and she is very happy. He really has another life of gay sex, another marriage, a pregnant girlfriend…that’s what we are dealing with….boundary protection or not.
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 8:48am
chinagirl says:
It’s interesting, beginning to change my self care and self nurturing…something i didn’t learn growing up but have come to understand that I need…and the people I know who have good boundaries are people I really respect. And they don’t apologize for it. I have always been one to be so worried not to hurt anyone’s feelings…yes a people please type, too, but not so much now. I still am respectful but not to the detriment of myself. I teach clients about boundaries and talk about much of the time, women especially, are called bitches or whatever when we set them. Men are looked at as strong business men….we are just not taught now to do this well. So it is a difficult concept to learn middle age but not impossible. Just takes time. As i have been reviewing my life the past few days I have always had boys/men give me a bad time for having boundaries. Even as a 13 year old girl….I remember guys trying to manipulate me if I didn’t do want they wanted. and even to this day….right now I have a guy friend who wants to date me and is pursuing me very aggressively. I don’t want to date. I am not ready in any capacity right now. (and btw I went off match!) The idea of dating is not appealing, the idea of having to compromise, give of myself, any of it…can’t do it. Not now. I have set my boundary with this guy from the start. Clearly and strongly and for fuck’s sake if he doesn’t push and push and push. He is ruining our friendship. I’ll tell him one day why it needs to be the way it is (and I”ve said friendship only, a dinner once a week, maybe a hike but that is all) and every single day he asks me to do something. Every other day he says things like “I want to kiss you so badly. Why don’t you come over and watch a movie at my house and you know just as friends, nothing more, just sleep over? let me hug and hold you and let me love you) Geez. This is after a month of having to tell him every 2 days, NO NO NO. He is a 55 year old man. Married twice. A professional. Educated. What the F? Maybe I am just more aware right now? Maybe I have zero tolerance for anyone who can’t abide by a simple and stated boundary but maybe these are the kinds of guys i am still attracting….He continually talks about how horny he is. I really could give a shit. No empathy for him there. Go get laid is what I told him. But it won’t be me. I can’t tell if he is just a normal guy who is wanting sex or if he has much deeper issues….deeper issues is my guess from what I know about him and it again comes back to a grown man unable to sustain my boundaries means i say good bye. Right? What do you all think?
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 12:23pm
chinagirl says:
One more thing and it is sad/funny…but I am a 50 yo woman who has to ask if my boundaries are solid, if my thinking is correct? My gawd….sad….what have I done to myself?
Also, looking at how I started dating spath and all that I talked about yesterday…wow. I see how I was targeted…he could sense how much he could control me when he was in the initial stages of dating me….how much I allowed him to do what he did….and then even in the marriage…during the first year when I went to treatment for my vicodin addiction…I completed my treatment and in my aftercare i remember having spath come in and talk with me with my counselor and I told him that the fact that I had not told him of my using vicodin made me sick…I felt so bad…so horrible…and that I would let him out of the marriage and ask for nothing at all…I would just pack my clothes and furniture that I brought into the marriage and leave. I would ask for absolutely nothing. He could have the house. I would leave town and he could move on. I was crying, I was sincere. I meant it. I felt like shit. He said, no. he didn’t want to divorce me…he didn’t want me to leave. I gave him time to think about it, told him to talk about it to trusted friend (yet he had no male friends) and he still said he didn’t want me to leave. So, I made my amends and at that moment I began my true recovery. Five years clean during the rest of the marriage…I worked hard. Went to meetings every day for 3 years. Worked in my church helping others, worked in the women’s jail helping women in recovery. etc. But what I see now is he was resentful and he used that resentment against me the rest of the marriage. I don’t know if he saw my recovery as a way to get something or what. I just know I see now the planning….taking me off the accounts three years later…I am sure he was hiding money with the smoke and mirrors he did around finances….I found a guy who did investments on our computer and found he had been investing…something I knew nothing about etc. I had a Focus on the Family counselor talk to me via phone for 2 hours when I called to talk about his porn addiction…and this guy knew right off the bat who he is. the counselor told me “Hey you can stay another five years and be in worse shape or leave now. This guys’s bottom is not you or your daughter, it is money and his reputation” and it all makes sense now. I embarrassed him when I left him. No one leaves me he said. And two of us did.
It is just such a steep learning curve. So much information is flowing through right now. I am having these aha moments every hour. I feel ill and exhausted. I am afraid to sleep. I fall asleep and will start to dream in 5 minutes…then wake up in a severe depression….an almost panic attack…and have to breathe and calm myself down. I can’t sleep because i am too afraid to sleep. I have had too many losses in a short time. My mom died in Feb and I lost my dad right now (my spath brother is trying to keep me away, lying…I talked about it earlier), my daughter, my son’s fiance who died, even my relationship with my son is different, the loss of my marriage and my hopes and dreams of what i wanted for my family, lost all my friends and church, even now have lost friends because no one can handle this shit that I have been crying about for five years, lost my house due to financial issues, I got evicted illegally after my spath and spath brother called landlords and told them lies…I am actually suing right now for wrongful eviction…same with a job….got fired after my mom died….I am also suing them for wrongful termination…attorney says I have cases for both of these….and I refuse to just sit and let it go without fighting back. My ex told me he was going to ‘destroy me’ and wanted me to live on the streets. I am one or two paychecks away….so I have had to move three times in a year….on and on….I know i am not the only one. But it doesn’t diminish the pain and the loss and the tragedy….it just is hard to wrap my brain around…I wish I wouldn’t have waited five years to get it. I kept thinking it would get better..that I did something wrong and if I just do things right it will change. Ha! Not quite!
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 12:42pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
YOU ARE NOT ALONE in this, if that is any consolation. Many of us here have lost our families, our homes, our finances, our jobs, our children, our sanity….and sure it hurts.
SO MANY LOSSES all at once makes it harder for you right now because of the stress level. YOU MOST LIKELY have some PTSD as well. So formulate a PLAN to work on yourself.
1) see a psych doc and get some medicine if you are not already doing
get a medical check up and a mammogram
2) go to an Al-anon meeting or NA meeting, whatever you feel is available and appropriate
3) counseling with someone who DOES GET IT
4) Physical exercise periods on a daily basis
5) medication for sleep if deemed appropriate by your psych physician some of the tricyclic antidepresion meds can used for this and are not “addictive” but very helpful (SLEEP IS IMPORTANT) Anti histimines like vistaral or benadryl are also useful for sleep.
6) eat three balanced meals per day
7) drink 8 glasses of water a day
I know that is a long list of time consuming things to do but it is one that you need to sort out to TAKE CARE OF YOU so if there is anything on that list that you haven’t done, do it. Then Keep doing it. TAKE CARE OF YOU.
With the incredible load of stress you have had you WILL become ill or have a bad accident. Holmes and Rae stress scale of CHANGES in you life in a 3 year period will almost guarrentee either an accident or illness if it is scored over 300 points.
For example, a divorce, a death in the family, a serious illness, etc. all these things by themselves rank 100 points, but you can assign any point system you want to in your own private scores. And I can tell you a “divorce” from a P is more than 100 points! LOL So it is important that you MINIMIZE/AVOID ALL THE STRESS YOU CAN. Change=stress so keep change to a minimum and don’t ADD anything new that you don’t have to.
Divide problems up in to two lists”
1) things I can do something about
2) things I can do LITTLE OR NOTHING about.
Take list two and quit worrying about trying to fix those things, just ignore them (it will be difficult at first) and concentrate on doing thins for yourself that you CAN do something about.
And keep on reading here on LF about how to recognize Ps and how to heal and comfort yourself! ((((Hugs)))) and my prayers for you as you heal. It WILL get better!!!!
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 2:05pm
bluejay says:
chinagirl,
I feel for you, being able to sympathize. My suggestion is to do little things for yourself each day, blessing yourself in ways that can lift your spirit. You have been through SO MUCH UPHEAVAL in your life, understanding that you would feel shaky, at the end of your rope. My words may not adequately convey to you that I get what you’re experiencing, still being in my own shake-up mode, having experienced enough trauma that it will take time to recover (if ever).
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 2:17pm
kerstinehry says:
sad but true ….. that’s what my ex does ….. court believes him, i have no hard evidence …. he even conned PhD …… please, we need more awareness and of course law changes!!!!!
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 7:49pm
kerstinehry says:
i personally believe they should not have custody because they re far to uncaring and reckless ….
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Friday, 27 August 2010 @ 7:52pm
bulletproof says:
kerstinehry- That is so hard…that court believes him over you, how good they are at conning when evidence isn’t solid enough…court needs you to be on your knees before they realise the violation…and that’s unacceptably too late….I agree about the custody issues too, why would you agree to leaving your children with someone that has caused you so much pain and confusion…it’s hideous
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 5:48am
Mama Mia says:
bulletproof, yes it is true. It makes me doubt justice and want to take things into my own hands.
It seems that you need to be down on your knees but even then I doubt that the courts care and change their opinion, as has happened to a girl I know. She lost custody over her son to a liar SP.
All my evidence is being ignored by courts and PhD’s. They believe his mere word. . . . UNBELIEVABLE but true…
Meanwhile my friends who know the story think there is something wrong about my story if SP continues to win. . .
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 11:13am
OxDrover says:
Dear Mama Mia,
That is it seems one of the biggest baddest most painful things about breaking up with a psychopath is that our friends (or what we think are friends) don’t validate us and what we say, but instead believe the lying P or the courts which they equate as “right”—when in reality, they are 180 degrees offf base!
I’m glad you found your way here to Lovefraud, it is a good place for support and to gain knowledge. I suggest you read the archived articles, and also go to Dr. Leedom’s site “raising the at risk child” as well as her book, “Just like his father” since you are having issues about your child with your X.
You will at least receive validation here at LF and I know how important it is to have some validation from outside yourself! Been there! Again, Welcome to LF!!! God bless.
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 12:33pm
chinagirl says:
Thank you everyone for words of support, ideas how to take care. Right now i am afraid…afraid i won’t get out of this depression…getting migraines weekly…etc.
Mama Mia, kerstinehry: yes, it is difficult when courts believe spath. Mine is very good…the silent strong type. The physician. with my recovery as a part of my background (despite what i have gained being in recovery and the growth and now work I do!!) he is able to use that against me all of the time. And at the end of my rope is when my friends, my son wonder what I am doing wrong because the courts believe him and my brother and having the really good things I did (esp. for my dad when my mom was dying) that got turned around into something evil…it blows my mind. So unprepared for people in my “family” to react that way…sick brother, one who was been estranged from family and one who does not know me at all. He is 10 years older, took off when I was a kid…and just has chip on his shoulder about anyone in life who has accomplished anything.
My spath schmoozed a Ph.D in psych as well…she told me that she thought I was unstable….of course I was! I was going through a difficult divorce and fighting for my life. Spath hooked up with someone immediately and planned to marry and did marry 5 months after divorce. How is THAT better? There is no healing there…but this is someone who obviously can’t and won’t “heal”..anyway. I understand. I wish i could show this Ph.D how stupid she is…what she did to my daughter…and losing my daughter to spath sent me over the edge for sure. just as he hoped. He is very good at taking one grain of truth and twisting it into big time lies that make me look like a freak. Sadly I am starting to feel more and more like that freak….and I thought I’d be better by now. It’s getting worse!
I think right now, after again having this friend of mine react in such needy and desperate ways, coming to my office unannounced because I didn’t email him yesterday and when I set the boundaries he just pushes and pushes…it has made me depressed again because i wonder why i keep attracting these people. Someone as I said I thought was going to be a good friend…he is someone who works with people, not a therapist but trained….a pastor…and when I asked him a question about the Bible he is able to take what I know the Bible says and conveniently make it work for what he wants, rather than what the Bible really says. He has been telling me how horny he is…daily….and I am sick of it. I have told him to stop talking about that to me. Then I’ll challenge his thinking….and say what about what the Bible says about not having sex before marriage? And he says Well, your old pastor who preached that must be sick sexually to preach it that way because I feel if a 50 year old couple is in a committed relationship and wants to have sex before marriage then they can and should. I said to him “Convenient”. I said that is why in AA, NA etc we need a sponsor….otherwise we can easily take the 12 steps, or the bible or whatever and make it work the way WE want it to. It just amazes me! maybe I am just too sensitive right now and I am looking for things….but maybe I am looking for someone who has integrity and not finding it. Maybe I am just losing my mind! That’s more likely! I feel like everyone is sick! I am hyper aware, obviously. Afraid of relationships, and have huge amts of baggage that I hope I can get rid of.
What happened to me? Whenever I feel like ending it all I think about my children who need me despite what they think or hear….and even my clients…Despite my own shit I have the ability to leave it at the door and understanding on a deep level what my clients are going through helps them… I don’t want to give up. It is just so overwhelming. and I definitely don’t want spath to win. This is what he his waiting for…me to give up. Not gonna happen.
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 12:38pm
bluejay says:
chinagirl.
I hear you about wanting to have people of integrity around you. If you do not want to associate with the pastor, drop him from your list. You can be the one with the integrity, waiting on things to sort themselves out, getting on with the business of living, making daily life better for yourself. We do need friends, but if you spend time with others, you want those people to be uplifting, always pointing you in a better direction, good emotional support.
P.S. You can get good emotional support here via the different posters.
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 12:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
This man is TOXIC, I am not sure if he is a psychopath or not, but the “sex” pushyness is definitely how a psychopath works, but TELL HIM IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS, “GET OUT OF MY LIFE.” He is showing you he DIS-respects your boundaries.
“So when someone SHOWS you what they are, BELIEVE THEM.”
We must listen to the ACTIONS of people, not their words! You can do it Chinagirl, you MUST DO IT! You can’t let this toxic jerk wad “pastor” divert you from your PRIMARY MISSION—healing yourself! HE IS TOXIC. HE IS POISON. HE IS A “BAD DUDE” FOR YOU! He is a FALSE PROPHET perverting the Bible.
((((Hugs))))) and my prayers for your strength and healing!
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 1:39pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
chinagirl – anyone who keeps telling you how ‘horny he is’ should be out the door, fast. this is SO inappropriate. period. done. i hold people in power positions to a higher standard than others – because they ARE in positions where they can abuse power.
get rid of the uncharitable christian.
re friends: i have lost a couple of people since the spath. it has been hard, but the longer i sit with it the better i am with it. i just don’t have the energy to ‘deal’ with anyone who is no longer happy to be at my side. i wish them well and goodbye. this started out feeling like such an enormous loss – but then i looked at how they had been backing away for months, and i realized it doesn’t matter how long we have been friends or how good those relationships have been, they were no longer really in my life. they didn’t have the skills to approach me about how nuts i had become or the ability to be aorund someone so hurt, so angry, so ill. Now, I am starting to realize, I don’t want them in my life. I don’t want to struggle to be who i used to be. I want to take this one step, the new one, out into the world, and i don’t yet have the energy to be my new self and deal with how weird that is to them. they didn’t like messed up one step, and new one step just needs some space to ‘be’ and find out who she is…and get comfortable in her skin. and as much as i formerly would have wanted that to happen with them at my side, creating an anchor to the past – i no longer want that.
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Saturday, 28 August 2010 @ 1:51pm
chinagirl says:
One step, OxDrover, bluejay,
Thanks….gosh, it is so obvious that this pastor is toxic yet i still allow people the benefit of the doubt…but the growth is that I no longer feel badly about setting boundaries and I can see the manipulation easily. for instance he said “So, are you going to always analyze everything I say?” and I said I am not going to allow you to manipulate me by trying to get me to change my boundaries out of some misplaced guilt….I don’t analyze everything, I analyze your challenging my boundaries. Its a defense for you. it doesn’t work on me. I am trusting more and more my own personal judgment for myself (easy to see for others) and I started to realize when he and I were having lunch he threw down the chopsticks when i confronted him on bibilcal teachings and pouted. It is so amazing to have you all say to me HE IS TOXIC, BAD DUDE, FALSE PROPHET…I have not had anyone in my life say to me these truths…everyone is such an enabler. My mom was the best…she always enableld my brothers bad behavior and she put me in such a bad position before she died to then “kick him out” and I did that with a father who has alzheimer’s so that court didn’t believe me either. For fucks sake! it is all too much!
I have no friends! literally. I have gotten rid of everyone….wow…I don’t like this isolation. And my friend who has her lover in europe hasn’t called me since her return and it is a relationship that I tried to end when I first got sober…and I am being shown over and over that she is not right for me despite 25 years of friendship, or whatever it is called. I am afraid I will over react to everyone…but maybe that is good. Maybe I need to since my old ways have been unhealthy. And btw before I read these emails…I did email pastor and told him no more. No more telling me he is horny, no more emails, no more anything. I need energey for me. Thank you so much for loving me on this site when I can’t do it for myself. yet. really.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 3:11pm
chinagirl says:
one more thing…having you all tell me these things, these truths that I don’t always see is like having the emotionally healthy mom I wanted, but didn’t have. She would never say that…she’d find out he was a pastor or in my other case a doctor and think “Oh, good, you’ve Made it in life now you have married a doctor” instead of what a jack ass, leave him now honey!
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 3:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
I’m glad you kicked this TOXIC person to the curb, but ultimately you must learn to validate your own gut feelings.
YOU are the one who had a “doubt” about him, we only VALIDATED that feeling, but YOU acted once you had our validation. I too was raised by an enabling maternal DNA donor and so I sought OUTSIDE VALIDATION when I felt something wasn’t right, and I took that outside validation rather than listen to my own Gut feeling. BAM!!!!! I got hit between the teeth when my gut feeling turned out to be right, but I had listened to someone else GASLIGHT me about it. “Gaslighting” is when someone else tells you “black is white” and you listen to them instead of your own eyes. The term comes from an old movie where a man tried to convince his wife she was crazy.
We are gaslighted instead of listening to our own gut feelings that “sump-ten ain’t rite here.” If you get a feeling that you are uncomfortable don’t let someone else’s judgment gaslight you that “everything is hunky dorey” when it isn’t.
It took me a LONG time to learn to set boundaries that I felt were reasonable without some external validation. Sometimes like you said, people who are first learning to set boundaries set unreasonable ones. I used my son D as a sounding board for my boundaries. I would literally CRY at the thought of setting a boundary.
I actually CAUGHT IN THE ACT a “friend” of mine stealing from me and the thought of setting a boundary that might “upset” her made me so anxious that I cried and cried. I spoke to son D about the boundary with this woman. He said my boundary was reasonable, so I set it. Of course she tried to violate the boundary and I caught her in the act of that, and set a more strict boundary….but by that time the training wheels were off and I was ABLE TO set the boundary without asking my son if it was “Okay.” I had LEARNED TO TRUST MYSELF and my gut feelings and my RIGHT to set boundaries for what behavior I will tolerate from others. Believe me, stealing my stuff is NOT OKAY. No matter who you are.
Even BORROWING it, ASK FIRST. Return it when you say you will, or replace it if you lose or break it or no more borrowing.
Now I can LOOK BACK and see how toxic these people were and it is difficult for me to see why I didn’t do something ten years previously and cut them out of my life then. WHY on earth did I tolerate that carp from ANYONE? And give them a chance to repeat it and repeat it and repeat it? (head shaking here) Why? Because I thought I could not “upset” anyone without it being my fault. I thought I was responsible for everyone else’s happiness. NOPE! Not gonna play that game any more, so I have very few “Friends” and those friends are wonderful and I cherish them the more because they are so RARE and VALUABLE.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 3:55pm
chinagirl says:
I know exactly what you are talking about. I still am slower than i want when i feel something isn’t quite right…still a bit of the people pleaser thing rearing its ugly head….but usually I am trusting more now. I did send him to the curb prior but it did still feel good to hear ok you are right. I still need to trust myself fully and it is a work in progress. So funny how I can tell others to do it and I am adamant…but myself? need to make sure….blah blah.
I really love the wisdom and care you offer OxDrover…there is a feeling of comfort around you…something I aspire to. I have been so undermined for so long by my mother and spath and now feel quite off balance….but that will change.
Gaslighting. Yes! I would say that all the time about spath….people thought I made it up. But that is what crazy making is all about. Then when spath learned about it from me because of him and when he went to therapy with me and learned some psych terminology…he’d then throw it back on me and tell me I was the crazy making one. of course back then I believed him….and tried to fix him and myself and us and everyone. Oh my gawd….and by the time I left, after 7 long years of tihs…I knew it was the right thing. Now, I am finding out who people are in about a month…hopefully we can trim that time frame down to immediate! LOL but it comes down to really trusting my judgements. I know I can but it is good to get feedback right now because everything I have done and known is changing….you know?
Sick attracks sick….that is all I have to say about my experience with spath. Had I had the needed therapy then and not gone through this undermining hell I wouldn’t have choosen him…but it’s all a part of my journey. I feel there must be a reason I am going through all of this and I need to be healthy enough to be able to use it for some good.
So today is a new day. this week is the start of eating better and exercising, getting my meds if I need them. I think just doing that much will change my life. I have been isolating for several months and not taking care of me. Focusing on surviving….I do not want to act out of fear any more. And part of my wanting to date i think is about fear and I have to check that. I can do this. by myself.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 5:03pm
bluejay says:
chinagirl,
Way to go. What I was thinking is that you don’t even have to give the pastor an explanation about why you don’t want to associate with him anymore. He’s a grown man, maybe, he can figure it out on his own. I feel for you because you are wounded (like the rest of us). I remember one time one_step_at_a_time told another poster something like, “you don’t have to talk to any damn person you don’t want to,” a light bulb going off in my own head, giving me the right to not always be so polite (aware of everyone and anyone else in a social setting), staying quiet when I preferred to be quiet, unsociable. We learn lessons throughout our life times.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 5:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Chinagirl,
Yes, yes, YES!!!!! I know about needing the validation from someone you trust—gosh did I EVER need it. Talk about “needy” believe me I didn’t trust myself at all. Now I do trust myself. Validation is good of course, but I don’t depend on it now in making decisions. I can make independent decisions based on MY own validation. I’m not an”id-jut”–in fact I am a strong, well educated sensible person! So now I am applying those things, strength, education and good sense to MY decisions. I think you are making some big leaps in that direction too.
I know I still make mistakes, we all do, but I try to do what is right and knowing that, I can forgive myself for those things. I know I still have sad days but that’s okay. Sad days does not mean I am generally UN-happy, it just means that I feel sad. Not that I AM sad. I lost a beloved dog a couple of weeks ago, and I’ve had some sad sad SAD days over that, but I’m still HAPPY if that makes any sense. I FEEL sad over the loss but I AM still happy.
My happiness, my security, my worth are inside of me, not my dog, my son, or anyone else, inside of ME!
I agree that there are lessons to be learned from what we are going through, and I think until we learn those lessons we are doomed to repeating the classes! OKAY, OKAY, I WILL STUDY HARDER THIS TIME! I will learn the lesson so I don’t have to repeat this again. I’ve been to “remedial psychopathic classes” way too many times so far, I don’t want to do it again! I’ve got to get it THIS TIME for sure! LOL
I am very proud of you China girl and proud FOR you as well. You are a bright woman, have a good education, and now it is time for you to apply those good things to taking care of yourself and I think you will take them and run with them. Sure, some difficult days, but more productive than difficult I think.
If I have helped you or comforted you, I am glad for that, because it always makes me feel good to have “paid back” the debt, the huge debt, to Love Fraud bloggers (most of whom are not still here) who were there for me when I needed the comfort.
‘
Also, by “preaching the gospel of self healing” to others, I reaffirm it in myself with each post. So I am not just preaching to you, but to myself as well. It helps to reinforce that thought in my own head. Makes me want to do the things I tell others I think are wise.
“Physician heal they self”—
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 5:20pm
chinagirl says:
I am so sorry about the loss of your dog..just a few weeks ago. I also lost my cat, D’s cat…I had to tel her today he died. But my daugher is very strong and smart and said Well, he was sick and next time we will get a kitty from a breeder”. Geez, wish I was so….calm and smart! I know the first four years I had with her daily molded a lot of who she is…and I’ll be back with her soon.
I think what you said about happiness, securiy worth being inside you, not your dog, son. etc…I am not there yet. I want to be but I am not. I grew up with all the external validating needs…like getting my parking card stamped….from everyone around me. It’s exhausting and just ridiculous. I tell my clients, when we talk about boundaries and how to set them, how to recgonize healthy relationships…that when they set a boundary, just like you and bluejay said, that they don’t have to give a reason. Why we think, when we say No to someone, that we have to explain it. I always tell them that even though it feels awkward we don’t have to give a reason for our No. Our No is good enough just as it is. But as I tell my clients this I am thinking ‘you hypocrite…you don’t do this still….’ and I kind of laugh at myself but realize I need to do what I tell others to do! We don’t grow up many of us knowing how to set boundaries or say no. And I have always been like you said Bluejay….worried about hurting someone’s feelings. Why is that my job? I tried to explain this to my mom when she was enabling my brothers really bad and sick behavior. She would think she was mean…so whenever I’d set boundaries that is the message I’d get back from her. I am mean…so that cycle continued….my daughter and son have learned something different from me….I have just fallen into a really dark hole with spath and need to get these tools back out and use them. I have been brainwashed being with spath. When I left him I remember the fog clearing…I felt beautiful, smart, on top of the world….I attracted people to me…I was myself again….and then the shit hit the fan with spath and I fell. So I have some work to do but thankfully I have you all here to remind me what I need.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 6:04pm
chinagirl says:
is it appropriate to ask if a poster is an attorney?
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 6:07pm
OxDrover says:
China girl,
The only attorney I know of on here is Matt, but yes, it is appropriate to ask that kind of question I think. Erin B has a lot of good “legal” advice but she’s not an attorney.
I know what you mean about “you hypocrite” because I used to profe3ssionally counsel people on quitting smoking and I was smoking. LOL I also taught others how to set boundaries and I didn’t myself, so yes, I know what the “professional hypocrite” is, I IS ONE! LOL
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 6:23pm
bluejay says:
chinagirl,
I think that it would be okay. Oxy already gave you the name of Matt, someone who posts periodically on this web site. Take care.
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 6:26pm
chinagirl says:
thanks. is erin b THE erin B or is that just her posting name?
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 7:08pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
chinagirl – well, she IS OUR Erin b.
our erin b has bouncy hair too, but she’s taller and maybe her chest is smaller.
oh, and she has a jetski. a spath toy her x forgot to tell the truth about…
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 7:20pm
ErinBrock says:
No…..chest is definatey BIGGER!
Butt too!
China….i’m not an attorney……I’m just a chick from the mountains who’s been through hell…..and seeing the sun again.
‘The’ Erin Brockovich is an ispiration to me….but certainly NOT me.
Her tenacity, spuk and geterdone attitude, brought me through this crisis in my life…..with the ‘i think i can….to I know I can’ to goddammit I WILL…..attitude…..It works.
I’ve encountered 2 spaths in recent years….one my ex husband of 28 years…..and the day my divorce was final….I let a business spath into my life.
In the end, I hunted them all down…….I took em both legally!
Legal answers will vary based on your state laws. But…..i’d ask whatever you want on LF…..from sex to legal to what color should I dye my hair next…..someone will have some sort of input for ya…..although your the one who needs to make the final ‘color’ choice!
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 9:00pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Eb – REALLY???
http://www.brockovich.com/photo4.html
whoa!
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 9:31pm
ErinBrock says:
Uh….okay….maybe not…..but for sure on the ass part!
I was thinking Julia Roberts in the Movie….. ha ha!!!
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Sunday, 29 August 2010 @ 9:40pm
OxDrover says:
Able to post again, but it is still acting screwy. I thought I was missing out here on something really special and all I find out is the relative size of EB’s butt!
This has been a quiet weekend, even during the late night, even our saturday night par-tay’s were dull this weekend. Next weekend is Labor day but I sure am not going to GO anywhere, roads will be packed!
Summer is better now and I took a walk yesterday and today, in fact, walked all the way out to the mail box on the road, got my newly ordered book and they sent the wrong one, same name, different book, and I know I clicked on the right one, but heck for $1.47 it looks interesting so I will read it and just reorder the right one, not worth messing with the refund. LOL
Well, gang I’m going to hit the hay and get up early while it is cool now and go for a walk in the morning. Had the AC off for the last 3 days, humidity has dropped and temp dropped some but even one day was 99 but with low humidity didn’t even need the AC. G’nite all. ((((Hugs)))) Sleep tight and don’t let the bed bugs bite!
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Monday, 30 August 2010 @ 12:30am
ErinBrock says:
Well…..my butt IS special!!!!
I also (not today) have posting problems. Sometimes at night, after I click post….i just have a white screen. I have to reopen LF and sign back in. Refresh doesn’t cut it….it takes like 2 minutes to refresh.
Then if I post again…..same thing……
Sometimes I get the articles but no posts below.
Sometimes it’s REAL slow.
Sometimes my typing is delayed and all shows up at once.
Never happens on other sites to me either??????
Donna….is there an issue?
Oxy, I’m glad your cooling off…..we GOT SNOW TONIGHT!
SNOW?????WTF????
Just a dusting…..but come on….it’s AUGUST! Record lows.
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Monday, 30 August 2010 @ 1:36am
ErinBrock says:
Okay…spoke too soon……screen went white after posting.
It seems to be after 10pm……white screen.
H,mmmmmmm
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Monday, 30 August 2010 @ 1:38am
OxDrover says:
I’m having the white screen thing too. It acts like it posts but just a while screen and says “done” in the lower left hand corner and won’t go back to the texts. I think this is donna’s problem not ours since we are so far apart. I Better let her know in an e mail.
Started raining here last night off and on, still cloudy and sprinkling today temp is 73 but humid windows open and feeling well. Yea RAIN! Wish I lived in a tin barn so I could hear the rain drops. Used to love to go out in the barn loft and listen to the tin roof in rain storm.
I would take snow too!!! But basically weather is all I have to biatch about I guess things are going well!
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Monday, 30 August 2010 @ 11:54am