Self-help guru files suit against guy who dumped her
PDF Karen Salmansohn, author of How to Be Happy, Dammit and about 20 other self-help books, got scammed by a guy who paid for her fertility treatments, but when she was pregnant, dumped her.
See story in the New York Daily News.
Link submitted by a Lovefraud reader.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
ErinBrock says:
Aeylah:
Thanks sweetie….
I LOVE SADE…..saw that on another post…..LOVE HER!!!!
Keep on keepen on girl!
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ErinBrock says:
MIGHTY MATT and Brock…….
Sounds like a great comic strip…….
Picture us in the s ex’s furs…long….with fur hats……roaming the streets of DC wiping out sociopaths…..one at a time…….
(shit, in DC….don’t think we’d have much downtime huh?)
Dudududahhhhhhhhhhh…..MIGHTY MATT is here…….
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ErinBrock says:
Knowledge:
I am enjoying it THANKS!……other things went down after that…..in regards to them both…..waaayyyyyyyy bigger than my deal with em…..
It is very rewarding to get some satisfaction…..a bit at a time….but with tenacity and dilegence….These peeps don’t deserve to be free….not with the cons they pull. It’s not sounding like they are going to be free for long……
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bulletproof says:
healing energy here…..soaking it up, great
It’s the LIES, LIES, LIES he told her! if he was “unsure” why couldn’t he say it?
I sense he was/is looking for something, it could even be as simple as the drama…he has all the signs of giving her what she wants and appearing like the perfect partner for her, when she got pregnant he dropped her! she obviously was no longer of any use to him, she was done.
he would have liked her status, he would have found it amusing she was a self help guru who couldnt help herself…he could dupe her, drive her nuts etc. feeding off the fun for months!!! I smell psychopath no doubt.
Shock after shock …she is waking up, and I like her honesty, being public about him and pushing him out into the open so we can all see him!! brave woman. I hope her baby is normal and brings her great happiness despite the shock of finding out her partner is at best an IMMATURE LIAR at worst A P
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Nicolaid says:
@ Bulletproof
I think you have a biased perception.
If every woman in the world chose the father of her baby with the same loose morals and thoughtlessness, we would soon be swamped with psychopaths. The prevalence of psychopathy wouldn’t be 1%, but 10, 15 or 20%.
A woman who doesn’t take the time to assess carefully the personality of her prospective mate sells off her womb to the slickest charmer, possibly a psychopath. She may become a link in the great evolutionary chain which we call “psychopathy”.
Women should not forget that they have their share of moral responsibility when it comes to sexuality.
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learning says:
Thank you Donna. Unfortunately it is still not allowing my posts to be posted. Maybe theres a timeframe involved when something like that happens? I will post under the Username “Learning” until my “Learnthelesson” account is able to post. Thanks so much. LTL
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learning says:
I had previously written comments about the self-help guru article which contained links to the Karen Salmansohn’s book “Prince Harming” and her web page which can be easily found as well. ( But posting the links caused my account to be viewed as spam) so I wont do that again!
I shared that after reading the news article I was unable to identify the victim and I was unable to identify the perpetrator. If there was one at all.
I felt there wasnt enough information and only one side of the story. I also had an uneasy feeling (red flag) and the thought crossed my mind maybe it was two people who made bad life choices/personal choices together.
I agree compassion should be given to any victim.
Perhaps i see the victim as his wife.
It clearly states that Salmansohn was aware he was married, but unaware that he had yet to file for separation/divorce. But the article states at one point he told her that he wished aliens would come down and take his “WIFE” away so he could be with her. Indicating she knowingly began a relationship with a married man.
Its one thing to be a self-help guru, its another to write articles and a book about “Prince Harming”… Salmansohn is so very well versed about all of the red flags, the rushing into relationships, being swept off feet, etc…articles/books from 2007…I posted the links simply for all of us to benefit from what she was writing/suggesting back then – i found it useful and beneficial IN PROTECTING OURSELVES FROM PRINCE HARMING… and I was surprised she found herself in the situation she became involved in last August. I had expected I would find the book was written AFTER her experience with the man she met in a cafe whom she has filed a lawsuit against.
For me, this story made me feel uncomfortable. Ive yet to feel that way reading any stories here. I just wasnt so quick to jump on board “ITS ALL HIM” bandwagon. We simply have no idea what transpired.
She is a writer. She has an outlet to the media.
Im just not convinced that there isnt more to this story than meets the eye. Perhaps an agreement gone bad.
I do feel badly for Salmonsohn if she truly thought he was in process of filing for divorce, thus knowing he was still married. But in all of her writings its seems so unclear to me why she would meet him in August and agree to undergo fertility treatments and become impregnated within 3 months.
Im not passing judgment – its just that something caused me to not take this article (her account) at face value. And its been bothering me that I had that kind of reaction to it. LTL
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Rosa says:
This is my favorite part:
“I may be a self-help expert, but I’m not a psychic,” Salmansohn, 49, said. “It was a great surprise that he broke his emotional and financial commitment.”
Which commitment is she talking about???
The one to her (Salmansohn), or the one to his WIFE????
After all, he was a MARRIED MAN, wasn’t he??
Salmansohn sounds like she’s got some Narcissist in her.
I’m not a psychic either, but I think I could have predicted this one.
He’s an idiot, and so is she.
Hopefully, she kept the baby…especially since she wanted one so badly.
She’s a best selling author, and a $200/hour life coach.
She’s suing Leff, so she’ll probably be able to get some child support out of him….maybe that’s why he pulled out….he was feeling too much like a Cash Cow.
Hopefully, she can move forward and give herself and the innocent baby a good life.
~And Leff only spent $10,000 on the Tiffany engagement ring??
That should have been a RED FLAG for Salmansohn right there.
$10,000 is NOTHING compared to the other expenses he was racking up in this relationship with Salmansohn.
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silvermoon says:
Rosa- bang – spot on- He is an idiot and so is she!
Who ever pays $200 an hour for her advice is too!
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learning says:
Rosa -
You were much more direct than me! LOL
I said “maybe it was two people who made bad life choices/personal choices together”…
And silvermoon – I dont think I would seek her for a life-coach…but I will say her “Prince Harming Article and Book” is SPOT ON as well as a book (Forget name) Bounce??? about how to bounce back afterward.
As far as making life decisions/life coaching…..havent found anything promising to back that up….
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learning says:
if you google “Do you suffer from prince harming syndrome” you should see her article in huffington post – posted August 2009 – around time she met him – she refers to recent apartment move – so youll know its the correct article. She refers to an “ex” prince harming in the article, but the dates dont match up for it to be the one she is suing?? Anyway, I guess the baby is due this fall. What a journey for all.
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OxDrover says:
What the heck is a “life coach” anyway? Is that someone who wants to tell you how to fix yourself, but they don’t have the education or license of a therapist?
Not that all therapists are “spot on” either, but I think it sounds to me that a “life coach” is just trying to find a way around not having a license for therapy.
Hey, personally, I think we have better “life coaches” here than anywhere else if you’re just looking for advice, and heck, it’s FREE here! Take two Tylenol and call me in the morning! LOL
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learning says:
WOW – SALMANSOHN PUBLISHED A RESPONSE. March 12.
Google : The truth about Mitchell Leff: From IVF to MIA in under a month.
Her side of story because she says much of whats been published is not true. Im off to read it in its entirety now. Wonder what my reaction willl be?
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learning says:
They met in August… she was aware he was in middle of divorce…not yet finalized…she accepted an engagement ring… he moved into her apartment…planned a pregnancy …all by December.
He didnt go back to his wife as the reason he didnt remain with her.. He decided he didnt want to be a father again, after she told him she was pregnant. Perhaps he didnt think she would be able to conceive?? (although she offers that as an option ..she admits it seems so far fetched) Cold feet??? Still he has an obligation as the father, right? Financially?
She relied on his word about following her passion about writing so she quit her job? because he “supported” her dreams…and then when he left she didnt have the finances….
How does this happen to someone so well versed. Its not about being a self-help guru or a psychic — its about something more for all of us — its about THE RED FLAGS prior to getting to that point….
Not yet divorced
Allowing him to move in to her apt.
Getting engaged while knowing divorce not final
Rushing into fertility treatments
Giving up a steady income
Relying on him to support her
and the biggie — how do we know when to trust vs not trust ???? if he is “following through with actions that back up his word/ commitment ” and then at 11th hour he says he doesnt want to be a father- does he have that right??
Again, in my opinion is was two people who made bad life/personal choices together. Each wanting something from the other – but not going about it the right way. So many lessons to be learned from this unfortunate story.
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Nicolaid says:
“in my opinion is was two people who made bad life/personal choices together”
I agree with you LTL. Speed-dating + speed-IVFing, that’s dary.
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learning says:
I wouldnt normally disect other peoples choices, but since its a news article and since its referencing someone who ” broke his emotional and financial commitment” – I wanted to break down
a. how one protects themself from having that happen to them (if at all possible)
b. figure out what the parameters of retribution are when having someone choose to break his emotional commitment.
c. learn what could have been done differently
d. understand how to avoid
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bulletproof says:
Nicolaid
Slightly biased alright! hating all psychopathic males about covers it! haha
yes, I aspire to become more umm lets say “objective” when I get over the fact I was lied to repeatedly, conned, robbed, cheated on by a guy everyone including me thought was “really nice” I still wake up in the night in what feels like a humiliation nightmare where some aspect of the degradation was missed and my unconscious can’t wait to tell me!
Learning
great list. The big fear for me at the moment is this:
HOW DO YOU KNOW WHEN SOMEONE IS LYING?
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OxDrover says:
Dear Bulletproof,
QUOTE: “How do you know when someone is lying?”
That’s the $64,000 question.
In the short term, let’s say, a small lie.
“Darling did you remember to take the trash out to the dumpster, it was over flowing?”
“yes, dear I did it about 11:00 o’clock, in fact, I smashed my finger on the dumpster when I lifted it inside”
FLASH FORWARD: You go into the kitchen a few minutes later and see the same trash bag with stuff falling out sitting in the floor, so YOU ARE ABLE TO COMPARE: WORDS VS REALITY and know you have been LIED to.
Now, let’s analyze the above LIE. Because it is OBVIOUS IT IS A LIE.
First: It shows that the person is willing to lie to you over something to keep you from becoming irritated with them right now, knowing that you will probably find out that it was a lie, but the irritation part will be at least delayed, rather than immediate, AS it would be if they told you the truth when asked
Second: I think this Willilngness to lie to you, especially over something so insiginificant, shows that they don’t really value your esteem, but they do sort of feel they don’t want to hear any criticism from you, because they have no desire to change their behavior toward you, and they sure don’t want to be nagged (again) about this and they have little foresight about the lie makming you even more irritated, and maybe even angry, but it is more important to them to at least DELAY the confrontation, so therefore it might not even happen if they can delay it.
3rd: Lying to you shows that they do not TRUST
YOU.
4th: Lying to you shows that YOU CANNOT TRUST THEM because they have a habit of lying for even inconsequental truth would cause even minute irritation for them, so if telling the truth would cause monumental problems for them, they will lie to the end.
The only way I know of to tell if soomeone is lying is to watch the PATTERN of what they say, vs. what you observe. If someone is willinhg to continually lie to you, even by withholding truth, skirting around truth, deceriving you in any way, that is a person who is not trustworthy, and people who are not trustworthy should be pushed to the curb of our lives and out into the street and a cab flagged down for them and their suitcases thrown into the cab as we shut the door and tell the driver to “take them someplace else”
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Oxy – i have spent the morning listening to comdey. I need to laugh. found this little gem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c84onEG44eQ
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OxDrover says:
Dear One, unfortunately most of the time my internet hook up us too slow to get videos to load in less than a “year” or sometimes even trying locks up computer. That’s one of the problems with living in the boonies. I have an air card and it is generally slower than dial up. Pain in the posterior!
No wi-fi places you can go hook up closer than 35 miles so just go with what I can read mostly unless it is something really I want to see or hear. I did look at the news article about Liane’s jphone interview about being one of the photographs of that serial killer! SHEESH! TAlk about a close call! That actually made me sick to my stomach just thinking about it.
This morning a friend sent me a link to a scientific experiment article about people with “hyper empathy” and how they actually FEEL other’s pain and I swear to goodness I got stomach cramps from thinking about how SHE must feel to wake up with CNN on her door step! Who knows, maybe that was what made me such an EASY prey for Psychopaths. I know I sure “felt” my P-son’s pain and fear for his welfare and so on in prison.
I do think that LAUGHTER is necessary to our healing, and the ability to laugh, to see things as funny, is important that we work on restorying that ability.
I’m fortunate in that my son D and his friends that spend a lot of time around here (from the time when I had little kids, all their friends congregated at my house) and that tradition continues today, so there is a LOT OF LAJUGHTER here at the farm.
Yesterday my neighbor who is 86 came by to visit me. He has always been an old flirt, and now he is a lonely old widower who is still an OLD FLIRT. He stopped by to visit me and gave me a VERY LONG HUG of greeting, but I am very cautious not to let him play grabby fingers and I do LIKE the old guy, he’s quite sharp and I enjoy his company but THERE AIN’T NO CHEMISTRY! Heck I’m 63 and he’s about 25 years older’n me!
Anyway, I quickly went up to the shop where son D and one of his friends were working on the tractor, to get out of bein alone with my visitor, and the four of us stood around and pickedc the visitor’s brain on diesel mechanics (he is good and very knowledgable) etc.
After my neighbor left, son D. said something along the lines of “Hey, from some of his little comments, I expected him to reach over and grab one of your boobs or something.”
I said “Yea, he’s kind of always made me a bit uncomfortable that way, he’s a dirty old man, even when his wife was alive. I just don’t give him anyy opportunity—never have. Never will.”
Later, after dinner, my son D and his friend, who is a very sweet and attractve young man, also a Boy Scout Adult leader, who spends 1-2 weekends a month visiting out here at the farm and I were talking around the table joking, and I said “OMGosh! I just realized how all these beautiful young men you bring home must feel when I hug up to them, just like I feel about “Jim” (the old man, not his real name though)”
At the same time, I reached over and hugged my son’s friend, and he turned his head away and said “Wow, I never noticed your great wall paper before” and the three of us cracked up
and almost rolled out of our chairs onto the floor.
But, Hey, there’s no long line outside my door of men wanting to feel me up, so I guess I’m not TOO offended at my elderly (evenf compared to me!) neighbor thinking I’m still “attractive” enough in my “youth” of 63 to be worthy of a quick copped feel! LOL It is all in how you look at it. LOL ROTFLMAO
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Oxy – your neighbor could give a rat’s ass about your age or how beautiful you are…he’s a perv. this really pisses me off.
there were guys in my life like this when i was a kid. liek the guy who delivered the water for the cistern – my mom sis and i ALL knew to not be alone with him, and we had never talked about it.
years later it came out that he had molested his kids and grand kids. no big fucking surprise there. that kind of smarmy, joke joke everybody’s friends and i can cop a feel and NO one will notice and certainly NO one would say anything shit makes my blood boil. it’s the subtlety, it’s the socially acceptable, so easy to gas light, and feign innocence.
i think you should tell him he can join big red in the freezer if he doesn’t cut it out.
the link i sent was billy connolly riffing on scrotums. it is VERY funny – well, to me it is.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – i would like to read that article about hyper empathy. could you post the link?
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conomo says:
OneStep–thank you for the humour reminder–need to actively pursue those feel good hormones. That segment provided a pure laugh out loud dose. Thank you.
I was very uncomfortable reading Oxy’s account of the neighbours fondling attempts. I can remember dodging an uncle’s hands every time we had to greet him. Every female did. It was just a given.
I also remember being terrified at 5 by a stranger who pretended to be checking out the seat on my new trike but cupped me between the legs.
These people are not innocent in my opinion either. I don’t even like a male getting in my space if they are not invited never mind touching me inappropriately. The hand on my curvy waste when hugging makes me cringe and back away very quickly. I sometimes make a motion with my hands like whoaaa
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one_step_at_a_time says:
conomo – am watching another billy, in which he says that ‘farting’ is a design flaw, and that if we were meant to ‘fart’ that we would have smoke stacks on our heads.
not big on fart jokes, but he is so funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
i think these lechers need to be called out every time they do this crap. putting up with this crap is part of what sets us up for later gaslighting. i remember my mom telling me a story about a man who used to visit them my folks when they were first married and he would sneak up behind her she was leaning in to the oven. my dad didn’t take it seriously. it’s a big conspiracy of silence: the perpetrators, the victims and the enablers.
we are taught that we are wrong form such an early age – it is in our very environment, systemic, ingrained. painful.
as people who have been targeted and have willingly given ourselves to spaths, we come to a point where we ask, ‘why, why me?’ truthfully and honestly, not in a whining way; this early training, ah, it is part of the answer.
my grandfater grabbed my breast when i was 21 in a goodbye hug at an airport, in front of three relatives. i went NC with him and my grandmother. when my grandmother died, i flew back east for the funeral and over the next while the sotry came out and fractured my family. i didn’t take shit from anyone about it. certainly not my uncle who said he was protecting my g.father (NC with h im from that day forward, 20 years ago or so), nor my N fahter, who I believe is STILL trying to punish me for this through various financial avenues)
those people can kiss my grits. who the f*ck do they think they are anyway? dysfunctional misanthropes, perverse leeches of the soul. f*ck them!
I mean, really!
one step is a little worked up. wink.
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Rosa says:
Bulletproof asks, “How do you know when someone is lying?”
There are DIRECT lies and then there are INDIRECT lies.
In the early stages of a relationship, an abuser (if he is one) will use INDIRECT lies to destabilize you, and keep the upper hand in a verbal exchange.
This will allow the abuser to establish control, and keep the victim in a permanent state of confusion between truth & lies.
Page 100-101 of “Stalking the Soul” states:
“Rather than using a direct lie, the abuser initially employs a mix of innuendo and unspoken hints to create a misunderstanding, which he will subsequently exploit to his advantage….To speak without saying is a clever way of handling situations….Having the upper hand in a verbal exchange is paramount, but an overtly direct approach would lead the partner to denounce the abuser’s authoritarianism. These allusive techniques, on the contrary, destabilize and erode the other’s identity, leading him or her to doubt the reality of what has occurred.”
I think being a good listener, and knowing what to listen for will help you determine whether a person is genuine or not.
Feeling confused by someone is a big red flag, in my opinion.
I hope this helps.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Rosa, I haven’t read this book yet, but I think it would help me to understand the use of diminuendo as it applied to my situation with the spath. thanks for sharing the quote.
a quote i like very much, which i found after dealing with a N girlfriend: silence is a text that is easy to misread.
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Rosa says:
As far as I am concerned, “Stalking the Soul” is a must read.
I put it up there on the same level as “Sociopath Next Door” and “Without Conscience”.
Great stuff in this book.
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Rosa says:
One Step:
“Silence is a text that is easy to misread.”
Not if you read “Stalking the Soul”.
“Silence” is discussed in the book.
If you can get your hands on the book, read it.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
it’s not available in my library, but maybe they have access to it through inter-library loan.
i have without conscience on order @ the library.
people keep stealing the library books on sociopathy. odd.
i wonder if it is people keeping them, or spaths stealing them.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Guys,
I guess I left more of an impression about what he DID, than I really meant to and I’m sorry I didn’t mean to trigger anyone about a “dirty old man” MY BAD, I should have realized.
This guy is a FLIRT who is BARELY on the line of having someone (like ME) punch him off. He never grabs anything inappropriate, but he does hug just that TINY bit TOO thight.
He makes comments about how “pretty” I am, and all that crap. He really doesn’t go over the line enough that I would (except on a bitchy day maybe) tell him to KNOCK IT OFF.
Sure, If I encouraged it one little bit and hugged BACK he might try something else a little bolder, or actually COP A FEEL, but he doesn’t go THAT far so I don’t have to tell him to “back off BOZO!”
I do know though that, now that I think about it, some people could be made to feel EVERY UNCOMFORTABLE by how he acts around me. To me, it is so LAUGHABLE and doesn’t quite cross the line of inappropriate to the point it is anything more than laughable to me, so I just keep my distance by not giving him any + response or any excuse for him to take it to the next level. I can see how that would be uncomfortable for others who had been groped as children. Sorry I didn’t mean to make anyone uncomfortable.
I just find it funny in a twisted sort of way that the only guys around that find me “attractive” are the over 85 crowD, to which I am a “young thing!” LOL
I am always hugging my son’s friends (who are all young men that I have known for many years, many of them since they were little kids) and I’m a huggy person and I just thought it was hillarious that While I would find Mr. 86-year old’s hugs unappetizing, I wondered jokingly if my hugs of the younger guys had the same effect on them? So asking one of my son’s friends this question, he made the comment about the “wall paper” and he and my son and I laughed til we hurt!
Believe me, I am not a “dirty old lady” where my son’s friends are concerned and hug them AND their girlfriends with the same kind of affection! I also think that they wouldn’t return here if they were uncomfortable in any way. BTW I don’t go to the neighbor’s house by myself, my son ALWAYS goes with me if I must visit him for some reason.
I do know what you are talking about though One-step, the “conspiracy of silence” about the bad behavior of the letchers in the family. Or the drunks or abusers, or serial infidelity etc. So if YOU expose what they have done, then YOU ARE THE GUILTY one for bringing the consequences down upon their heads and ruining their “good names.” LOL ROTFLMAO Yep, it is ALL YOUR FAULT. You ruined the family by blowing the whistle.
I lived with that my entire life. But no more. I know where the old man from down the road will go, IF I ALLOW IT, but I won’t and he won’t, so I can laugh about it. Flirting with me is probably the only thrill he gets in the world…his POS kids don’t do anything with or for him and his wife is dead, he lives on $600 a month (if you call that living) so as long as he doesn’t TOUCH where he knows he better not, he can keep on telling me how pretty I am, and better looking each time he sees me, and HEY, IF I WANT TO BELIEVE THAT, WHAT’S IT HURT! ????? LOL I AM darned good looking and since I have quit smoking and gained some weight, it filled out some of the wrinkles! LOL
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conomo says:
From: male friend
To: me
I never thought of that,lol. I know that figures
From: me
To: male friend
Hmmm. I wonder why she said no in the first place…
From: male friend
To: me
Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 12:08 PM
Subject: Fw: ENCORE: A “Beauty” Story …
Once upon a time, a guy asked a beautiful girl ‘Will you marry me?’
The girl said, ‘NO!’
And the guy lived happily ever after and rode motorcycles and went fishing and hunting and played golf a lot and drank beer and scotch and had tons of money in the bank and left the toilet seat up and farted whenever he wanted.
The End
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one_step_at_a_time says:
awesome parable!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
i hear you oxy – and you certainly articulated all of these nuances in your post….but his actions still pithed me off.
’cause i am just not angry enough today….eghhh…
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OxDrover says:
Ah heck, One step, better to be pithed OFF than pithed ON, I guess!@ LOL
There is another “parable” about a princess who picks up a frog and the frog tells her that if she kisses him, he will turn into a rich handsome p;rince and that she can clean his castle, and bear his children, and entertain his guests, and so oon, and so she eats frog-legs in wine sauce and lives happily every after!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
LOL Oxy!
never did take to the smell of urine..
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conomo says:
OneStep–Billy Connolly is too funny! Just watched “Old lady on the bus.” Bursting out of my sheltered bubble some more here. Never heard of him either. lol
When my uncle died I didn’t go to the funeral and there was some bad blood about it. I finally told my male cousin(my age) about it several years later and he had no idea. We really didn’t reconnect again for a few years after that but now check in on each other regularly. I think he needed time to digest that information. We have never talked about it again either, but I sense no animosity from him and he has been there several times for me over the bs with the youngxS. If I wasn’t honest about what happened with him about his dad, then I never could have had a real relationship with him again.
Oxy, I wasn’t judging you…I was concerned–perhaps triggered as you say….
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OxDrover says:
Dear conomo,
Wasn’t offended in the least, Dear! I didn’t even think about it maybe being a “trigger” to make others uncomfortable, esp. others who had been “groped” as children and were unable to do or say anything, or if they did, they werre shot down by the adults in their world and told either it was an accident, or not real. Someetimes I do put both feet in my mouth and CHEW RAPIDLY!
Growing up a tom-boy, mostly in the rodeo and horse show crowd, I was never groped by any guy that I didn’t want to be groping me! And I was fiesty enough that no one wondered about what would happen if they seriously tried! LOL
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learning says:
Dear Oxy,
Its LTL…still cant log in on that account. Quite the bummer as I know the password by heart!
I just wanted to say your post to Erin 1972 about HOW WE MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, is also a part of the equation when dealing with/getting involved with another.
This article really struck a chord with me — opened my eyes to the sheer face we each have to be independent and remain that way to a certain extent -
So many broken promises from mens “words, supporting our dreams, our futures….perhaps when in a relationship nobody should SOLELY RELY ON PROMISES, FINANCES, SUPPORT OF ANOTHER. We should carry our weight and they should do the same.
And by all means…we should never RUSH into any type of long term commitment (financial, parental, marital) with someone we’ve only known for months…
This article has had me thinking and rethinking so many things…my head has been spinning for days about the how do we really know someone – how do we really trust someone — what rights do people have to back and walk away if the relationship isnt working for them or freaking them out. When does it become dealing with bad decisions vs dealing with a psychopath. AND SO MANY MORE QUESTIONS I HAVE.
In conjunction with this I have two teenage daughters entering the world of “dating”…well if we can call it that these days. We have had many heated discussions about what my expectations are and what they say is “the real world” now…. apparantly its out with the “boyfriend” status and in with “just hooking up” or “hanging out” or “Ichatting over the computer where boys ask a girl to show him this or that” aside from drugs and alcohol (which they tell me they are faced with seeing and declining everyday) my middle daughter really, really is boycrazy.
She told me “Mom – he has been paying attention to me for 2.5 weeks. He really likes me. He told me so. She has kissed this boy the first tine they were able to be together in a group setting – he walked her out to car and they kissed. UGH…. But this is why Im writing she says “I know you want to meet him and all, but I dont want to ruin it. Kids just dont do what you did when you were younger – he will think I want something serious. I said if you tell him your mom wants to meet him and he says no or doesnt talk to you again – THAT MEANS HE ISNT SUCH A GOOD GUY FOR YOU ANYWAY. I told her when a guy really likes you – you can nearly do no wrong — but more importantly its WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF RELATIONSHIP TOO. Then we talked about actions and words…and the fact that most of these male teens set it up as “let me know if you want to do something later or call me later tonight” so the girls are doing the initiating.. Then she showed me texts where she actually questions what he wants in his life, and he said I really like you, youre different and I just want to take my time getting to know you – she said “same, I just want somebody who wants the same things I do” all of these kids are sharing thoughts comments VIA TEXT, COMPUTER…She even said to me Im going to trust guys until they give me reason not to. I put my foot on the brake in car (knee jerk response and I said ” no no nononononono NO”… you must have them earn your trust – they must back up their words with actions — I was nearly shaking with fear -(of which she had no idea)…but wow what insight into how early in life the set up begins. These girls just want to please, want the guys attention… We talked about self-respect, boundaries setting limits – and by the end (after tears and anxiety and shutting down – she said ok Mom, ill ask him if he wants to come over…
Now that I see it really is about OUR choices not theirs…we really have to know what we want, what we expect for ourselves and how we want to be treated. WE JUST CANT FLY BY THE SEAT OF OUR PANTS TRUSTING EVERYONE IN LIFE – OR WE WILL BE BURNED. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR LIVES. WE MUST KNOW THE RED FLAGS AND SET A STANDARD THAT SAYS – THIS IS WHAT I WILL ACCEPT AND THIS IS WHAT I WONT ACCEPT — TO A TEENAGER OR A GROWN MAN. IF HE CANT HANDLE IT – HE CAN HIT THE ROAD JACK — WE CANT AFFORD TO GO THROUGH EMOTIONAL AND FINANCIAL LOSS ANYMORE – WE MUST PROTECT OURSELVES – NOT BY SHUTTING THEM OUT – BUT BY REMAINING TRUE TO OURSELVES AND BEING INDEPENDENT ALL THE WHILE GROWING AND LEARNING AND SHARING OURSELVES WITH ONES WHO RESPECT, TRUST, SHARE LEARN AND GIVE TO US TOO.
Sorry for rambling – but this article really caused me to wonder what the heck we are doing in our relationships these days. And what the heck we need to change to protect ourselves and still experience love and friendship with others. ughhhhhhhh what a week of heavy thoughts… thanks everyone. LTL
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learning says:
ps.. We all have so MANY many examples of things these creeps did to us during our relationship with them….but we should really only have one – it should be a one-time thing…one red flag – one lie, one cheat, one steal…and DONE.
We all have so many examples of what they did to us, how they treated us so badly over and over and over again.
We must take responsibility in future to never let it happen more than once.
They can earn our trust – thats something Ive learned
They can respect us every day –
They can be faithful or be gone -
They can be kind and caring and have a conscience – or be a psychopath
The choice is theirs as equally as it is ours – as to what we will tolerate and what we are willing to risk ( independence, finances, our hearts, our spirits – should we continue to make choices that dont benefit or protect us) It is part our responsibility to make GOOD CHOICES too…and yes to make mistakes too – thats how we learn – but we have to move on with our lessons learned before life ends… xoxo LTL
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kim frederick says:
LTL, you said a mouthful. I think, being raised in the 70′s, amidst the feminine revolution, so to speak, it seemed okay, somehow empowering to initiate with boys….but now, in my old(er) age, I definately think it’s a mistake!
It’s the boys, (man’s) JOB, to put himself on the line, face rejection, show what he’s made of….further more, I think they like it that way, and if they are really interested, we will know…then we decide! Period.
It sounds like you have a really good relationship with your daughter…just keep those lines of communication open.
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kim frederick says:
I think we are ultimately responsible, but I think it’s our job to do, as you are, educate our young people, so they KNOW what IS and IS NOT okay…before they get sooo deeply enmeshed that they can’t find their way out of a bad situation…I do believe that there is such a thing as a betrayal bond, and Stockholm syndrome, and we as people who have experienced “the lie,” need to pass our wisdom on, especially to those who are just learning about love and hormones.
Keep up the good work.
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OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
For a while there LF would not accept or keep my password either, and I kept having to have DONNA retype it to get me back in. NEver did get it figured out WHY but it stopped. DUH! I guess it didn’t like me for some reason! LOL
My dear I do NOT envy you having teenaged daughters who want to be liked by their peers and by boys. Oh, my Gosh! How things are changing but always staying the SAME.
Yes, she needs to learn to set boundaries, and you have got to also set boundaries with her, wihtout being so strict or judgmental that you turn her off from listening to you. I do NOT envy you being a parent to a teenaged girl! Or boy for that matter. It was rough when I had then but even rougher now I think. And Hey, I didn’t do such a great job with either of my biological offspring and I don’t take credit for the other one.
It is so hard to walk that line during those years and to be a PARENT, not try to be a “friend” to your kids, and yet get them to like you as well. TO set those LIMITS AND BOUNDARIES to protect them if you can. To let them start to make some decisions and let go some at the same time keep them from “going over fool’s hill” to the point that they end up with a RUINED life. With consequences so bad that recovery is almost impossible.
I think about my P-kid wanting a motorcycle, feeling ENTITLED to one,, and I had joked (seriously)with them ever since I worked in spinall cord and head injury rehab that “instead of getting the MC, I’ll just break all your bones with a baseball bat and we’ll save the expense of the MC”
Kids are not mature enough to own a hot MC, that is why kids need a huge car that barely runs to 50 mph until they get experienced enough to be safe! All the sheet metal you can wrap around them. I didn’t want my kids ending up paralyzed from the neck down or from the waist down. So, I refused to buy them anb MC anbd added that as long as they had their feet under my table, They couldn’t even use their own money to buy an MC–being a PARENT, setting boundaries.
So what does P son do, STEALS a bike—he will show me who is in charge of his world. But he would ride it “safely” and that is why he got a ticket doing >100 MPH, “safely” of course!!!!!
If the kid is DETERMINED to defy you, lie to you, and get into trouble with bad choices, there isn’t anything you can do to FORCE them to “behave”—believe me I know. LOL But you do the best you can at imparting a moral compass, setting reasonable boundaries to protect the kids as much as they will let you and assure them of your love. And keep the dialog open as much as possible.
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learning says:
Kim,
I told her she is not to “chase” boys. That boys/guys who like her will make sure they make it known – or naturally it will happen within a friendship. That she needs to focus on studies and sports and hobbies as she has a lifetime ahead of her for relationships after she gets to know herself…
Also, (boy Im on a roll – but so much came into my flow of thoughts past week) in the news is the Sandra Bullock/Jesse James marriage in trouble because of him supposedly being unfaithful. I have to admit, while I didnt pass judgment – I did have RED FLAGS just seeing the two of them together prior to the recent allegations. She was MADLY, MADLY IN LOVE WITH HIM – you could see it in her eyes and in her words to him — and someone pointed out —
” She only saw the good in him, she trusted him”
But so many saw that she CHOSE to marry a man who had just divorced a porn-star, she CHOSE to trust a man whose lifestyle was soooooooo different than hers, she CHOSE to believe in him and only see the good in him. He let her down… and so many saw that coming but her.
Some would go back again and again with apologies and or denials from their partner, and some would leave and never look back…which is right choice? HOW DO WE KNOW???
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kim frederick says:
LTL, YEP. That IS the million dollar question. And what is it that makes some of us choose to go back and believe…while some of us know better? Honestly. I went back over and over. Was it as simple as low self-esteem? God knows I had pride…I just WANTED to believe.
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learning says:
Yes Oxy -
I must set boundaries. It is sooo hard to be the one parent in the town who doesnt want her kid on the computer, and who wants to insist on meeting the boys who are coming into their lives. She constantly tells me Im the only mom who calls the homes of friends to make sure a parent is there, or Im the only one who makes her come home by 11, etc. And I dont care, I say to her – I cannot believe Im the only parent in this town that loves and cares about her child – but if thats the worse thing about me – Ill take it!!!
It is tougher than you can imagine. So many teenagers whose parents either have dangerous levels of trust for their kids or so many parents so involved in themselves that they dont give time of day to their teenagers and they are out making life-altering choices in a blink of an eye.
Thanks. I will stay the course, but I see everyday a need for parents and teens to connect on levels that rarely happens even in my generation — we must talk to them like adults and share with them our knowledge and guidance – not send them out the door at 7am without being armed with good choices, moral compass, boundaries and a sense of self-awareness, respect and responsibility – that we didnt have (or at least I didnt have). So the cycle of bad choices can END or be lessened where relationships are concerned!
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learning says:
Kim -
We can believe, we should believe…but not with blinders on us when with a bad man…or any man for that matter!
we should be believing in men, friends, people who are of like-mind, soul and spirit…we should be believing in the ones who actually earn our trust because they show us with their actions. We cant turn a cheek or a blind eye — talk about the irony of Sandra Bullock being Blindsided. OMG.
We have eyes, ears and mouthes — we need to use them and trust them too
)))
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OxDrover says:
TOWANDA!!! You go girl, you BE A PARENT!!!!! Good for you. I wish there were more like you!!!!
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kim frederick says:
LTL, AMEN.
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learning says:
Thanks guys… I know Im mixing in the parenting stuff with the stuff about adult relationship choices…
Something just clicked with me that we need to continue to be aware and try to make better choices or good choices when giving ourselves , our best to another.
I see a pattern of somebody or both always wanting something from the other or expecting something from the other in these bad relationships. Its leading me to believe a relationship is best when we have met our own personal needs first ( and of course the other person has done that for themselves as well) – kind of entering a relationship whole – not so much wanting or needing something from the other….but being able to experience each other and grow and learn with each other as a whole.
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kim frederick says:
Ya’ll might find this interesting…when my daughter (now in her early thirties) was 16 she had the most georgious boy-freind…he was 17, and 6’3 and sooo very charming, polite, intelligent…he bought her a dozen roses every week for about a year…took her to the prom, bought her a pair og re-boks, clothes, jewellery…I thought he was a nice boy.
Well, the romance ran its course and she broke up with him. He came out to our house to try to make amends, and asked if he could take her for a ride, and we said okay…he took her into the woods, pulled a knife on her and tried to force her to have sex…Somehow she was able to talk her way out of it…but I didn’t know this happened for years…further, he told her how to dress, who her freinds could be, how to act etc.etc.etc.
I thought my daughter and I had an open line of communication…but, she never told me these things.
Turns out, years later, this “boy has been arrested numerious times for domestic violence on three different victims…
Wow.
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