The sociopath’s pseudo insightfulness and sensitivity
PDF Sociopaths who posture as insightful and self-aware are some of the most dangerous predators around.
When I use the terms pseudo insightful and pseudo sensitive, I’m referring to the sociopath’s manipulative efforts to seem some combination of vulnerable, self-aware, sensitive and compassionate.
For some sociopaths this deception is conscious, while for others it is so seamlessly woven into their modus operandi as to feel (for them), at least in the moment, almost authentic.
Even the normal individual, low in sociopathic traits, may struggle to distinguish his deception from authenticity when finding himself “performing” in a mode in which he feels masterfully confident and comfortable—for instance, pitching a sale; or making a presentation, or speech.
But what factors make the sociopath’s “insight” and “sensitivity” pseudo versus authentic?
There is, first of all, the manipulative function of the sociopath’s pseudo sensitivity. Authentically insightful individuals use their insight and self-awareness not merely to better protect themselves and their interests, but also to better understand themselves and others.
Sociopaths, however, always wanting something from others, oriented as they are to wanting to take something from others, use their “pseudo” insight and self-awareness for exploitive purposes.
For instance, the sociopath’s interest isn’t to get to know and understand you better for purposes of increasing his depth of connection with you; rather, his interest to establish unobstructed access to you is about positioning himself to take something from you that he wants—whether you’re ready to offer it or not, and whether it’s in your best interest to offer it or not.
In other words, the sociopath is never interested in you; he is always, and only, interested in what he can take from you.
This applies also to the sociopath’s invitation to appreciate his pseudo display of vulnerability. This may take the form of his “startling sensitivity” and self-awareness. If he reads you correctly—as someone, say, who values vulnerability and substance—then he may regale you with “apparent” evidence of his capacity to be wounded; to manifest sensitive emotions; to position himself as someone who’s “in touch” with his feelings.
As always, how much he believes his performance in the moment (versus consciously recognizing it as bogus or manipulative) varies from sociopath to sociopath and from circumstance to circumstance.
Paradoxically, a more “self-aware” sociopath will recognize his fraudulence better than a less self-aware sociopath, who may be more prone to denial, self-delusion, and the belief that, at least temporarily, he really is the role he’s playing.
Regardless, sociopaths play the “self-aware,” “vulnerable” card (consciously or not) ultimately for grooming purposes—specifically, for purposes of softening your defenses and encouraging, coaxing out, your vulnerability.
This is because the less guarded, the more disarmed you are—in a word, the more vulnerable you are—the greater (the sociopath calculates) are his chances of taking from you what he wants.
Now let me apply some of these ideas to a hypothetical, real-life scenario: Let us say you are on a blind date with a very charismatic, charming sociopath. There is seemingly very intense chemistry. He watches you in a very flattering, lusting way, feasting his eyes on you all night. He tells you how attractive he finds you, that he’s mesmerized by you.
Now he isn’t necessarily lying. He could be lying, we know that, in which case his manipulation is that much more blatantly and manifestly sociopathic. But it’s also possible that he isn’t lying—that is, that he feels, in the moment, that what he’s telling you he feels is true; or, that he’s convinced himself that everything he’s telling you is true.
And so his sociopathy can’t necessarily be traced to his lying, because in this instance he may not perceive himself as lying, and, in a certain sense, he may not be lying. His sociopathy, rather, can more accurately be identified in his underlying, preexisting agenda which, in our hypothetical scenario, come hell or high water, is to “nail” you.
He made this his mission the moment he laid eyes on you and found you sexually attractive enough to make this his intention. He feels quite thrilled—perhaps even a little giddy and delighted—that you’ve proven attractive enough (in a sense, cooperative enough) to elicit his lust, which now enables him to pursue his agenda with you.
I don’t mean to suggest that this is the only agenda our hypothetical sociopath could be pursuing with you. It’s possible that he (or another sociopath) might play things differently, by approaching his interests with more or less patience; more or less calculated, disguised subterfuge.
And it’s possible that our sociopath, or a different sociopath, on this same first, blind date, might have an entirely different set of intentions, warranting a very different approach to meeting them. For instance, he or she may be a golddigging sociopath—a financial predator—less than a sexual exploiter.
However, this is what my hypothetical sociopath wants in this particular situation; accordingly, he’s going to pull out all the stops to land you in the “sack” or, one way or another, land himself in your pants.
Because all that matters—and in essence, what it always and only boils down to—is what he wants.
And so our sociopath, on meeting you and establishing his sexual interest, feels glad, elated, even excited that you bring something he wants. He may feel, beyond that, primitive gratitude that you haven’t disappointed him in this respect. Nothing, after all, could be more depresssing, more boring and less tolerable than, on his having met you, his discovering that, alas, you have nothing to give him that he wants.
Incidentally, this experience—his experience—of your uselessness elicits any number of possible reactions, including irritation, resentment, utter contempt, annoyance, and excruciating disappointment and boredom.
It is bad enough (for you) that you are only, and will never be more than, an object to the sociopath. However, for the sociopath, the fact that you are always only an object to him isn’t necessarily a problem; it is when your usefuleness as an object has run its course that the sociopath is most displeased and agitated, and when he is most likely to unmask himself as the cold, heartless person he is.
However, in our hypothetical scenario, as we’ve established, you do indeed have something he wants: he finds you gorgeous. And so in his relief, in his gladness, in his heady gratitude that you have something he wants—something that he can now can set about taking—a psychological transmutation occurs.
The sociopath’s gratitude, on discovering that you have something he wants, becomes primitively transmuted into a form of idealization—of you!
And in his primitive, corrupt idealization, the sociopath is prone to convincing himself, and you, of the sincerity of his ebulliant flattery and appreciation. So much so that when, as previously noted, he tells you he’s mesmerized by you, he may mean it, or think he means it, and he may seem and, indeed, be sincere when he says this.
But what mesmerizes him is you-the-object, not you-the-person. He is mesmerized not by the substantive you, but by his fantasy of what he imagines you will give him, or what he’ll soon coax from you or, if necessary, take from you.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW. My use of male gender pronouns is for convenience’s sake, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors discussed.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
kim frederick says:
Oxy, I went to Goodwill yesterday and looked at sweaters for yarn…but I didn’t really know what to look for. I was also wondering where you start unraveling. At the collar?
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OxDrover says:
Unraveling sweaters is a learning curve, knowing how to knit helps. I suggest you “google unraveling sweaters” or something on that line, there should be instructions somewhere on the net. The thread MOST are sewed together with side seems, arm seams, etc. will (if you pick it out right) will just PULL and come undone, otherwise you have to clip it a stitch at a time, then you start at the top of the shoulders, and catch the yarn and unravel it and wind into a ball.
Actually, see if you can find someone to show you if you can’t find a web site with photos or instructions. There are knitting groups and fiber arts groups in most places now. Get some help there. Good luck.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sister,
The thing I have deetermined FOR ME, is that while I want to devote time and effort to good causes, I find that if I have to wade hip deep in “chit” or “drama” in order to accomplish any good, sometimes I would rather put my effort for “doing good” into a venue in which it doesn’t take such a toll on myself.
Sure, there are all kinds of “causes” from anit-abortion, to pro-choice, to Feed the children, to political causes, and each of these causes, if you “believe in” the cause, is a BIG ISSUE that needs someone to work for it. However, like anything we do, there is a “benefit vs cost” issue on it. IF it is COSTING you your sanity to accomplish REAL GOOD that maybe saves someone’s life, then you might be willing to put more of yourself into the cause. However if you are being totally beaten down by investing in this cause or project and you see that you might as well be pithing in the ocean for all the good you are doing at a great cost, maybe you might want to find a different venue in which to invest your effrorts and to decrease the cost to yourself and your sanity.
Lets say that prior to the civil war you were helping run-away slaves reach safety and you felt very strongly that this was a good thing and was accomplishing good. STill, the risk to your self and your young children who might be left orphans if you were caught would make you rethink your investment in this “good cause” to giving money, rather than actually housing run aways, or you might think the good outweighed the risks for you. Each of us has to weigh our own conscience, and our own willingness to invest in what we feel is for the “greater good of society.”
There are literally thousands of ways to “do good” that are relatively free of stress and “sharks” in the pool. You can teach a kid to read, volunteer in schools, hospitals, with DV shelters, or start a food pantry or collect food for one, or give money to various causes.
Doing things that help our community, our country, our world, all give a feeling of raised self esteem for those who “give” to others freely, but there are always a few in just about every group who are there for power, control and self agrandizement. I don’t have much tolerance for these people, though I am working on developing more tolerance, but right now, I know I don’t have it, so I avoid this kind of bruhaha
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kim frederick says:
Thanks Ox. I have been thinking about trying to find a group. I’m sure it would excellerate my learning, inspire creativity, and give me a social outlet. I will look on-line, as well.
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autisticsouls says:
thank you good everyday peoples for your kind words, yes.
I be see why myMike come here. although i be not knowing how to reciprocate such support feeling much wordless to offer in your plaight many times. this being much kindness of yourselves for me. where you be have giving of yourselves in ways i know not.
before in mine observations i be futile in understanding mankind. be so i just a spectator in mine world autistic. interaction was somthing else altogether. and i asked mineself more understanding of the almighty.
in feeling such turmoil recent, i be having reached a place where i be as human as you be, walking in the journey, not just a separate entity in living life here in spectator mode.
Des
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Des,
Both you and your husband have taught me and touched my life with your journey. Thank you for being here and sharing your journey. Im sorry for your recent pain and turmoil. Sending you prayers for more peace and answers …with each passing day.
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autisticsouls says:
(Mike):It sounds like your thoughts are grinding and grinding on themselves, and they are filling your field of vision, eclipsing your intuition.
(Des and to LTL)This be much so. i be in everyday peoples mode naught autistic mode. being in autism mode things be thought out much orderly. things come together clearly watching from a distance in a world separate from the one we be visiting. the closer to things we become the harder they be to see clear.
(Mike)For your thoughts, consider this: When you distrust yourself, you are *trusting* in yourself that you are untrustworthy. Cynicism is a *faith* that you aren’t missing out on life.
(Des) it be so i becoming like everyday peoples. in mine curiosity i be so have asked of the Almighty, give me more understandings of everyday peoples, for where i be i have naught to offer themselves.
This can be aligned with the concept of “Be careful what you ask for, because you might receive the wish granted.”
For i know now everyday peoples pain and confusion. be so I naught any way i can get back to where i been before. the bread crumbs have been eaten away and this be new terrain for mineself.
But this be possibly where i be meant to be now. lost in chaos and confusion, but for the autistic soul, it be hell. we naught like things so untidy…
we be have our manner of writing, that for some is the only communications we have as some such have little to no verbal skills. be so not all of us as well spoken as myMike and Temple Grandin. I be write better than i can talk.
these be the words of many our autistics.
This be so Larry’s writings as he is as such non verbal. these be his words:
http://thechp.syr.edu/MyClassi.....c_768k.mov
this be Sondra Williams who speaks but not how she be writing. like mineself rapid soft strange monologue.
“…I to share a metaphor of much of the life people tried to teach me to fly and I to tried and tried, but one day realized the reason couldnot fly was because I to been of born with fins…. those in life seeing of this should have been of responsible enough to teach me how to swim not fly…. so not I to be of learning how to swim in life and gave up the trying to fly…. Sondra Williams…”
This be our Jamie: Little verbal speech must type what he writes and then read what he types..:
http://www.tash.org/breaking-t.....jamie.htm#
This be our completely nonverbal writer Birger From his “I Don’t Want To Be Inside Me Anymore’ Book of Poems…:
“…now i am going to write a song about the joy of speaking
a song for mute autistics to sing in institutions and madhouses
nails in forked branches are the instruments
i am singing the song from deep down in hell i am calling
out to all the silent people in this world
make this song your song
thaw out the icy walls
make sure you aren’t thrown out
we will be a new generation of mute people
a whole crowd of us singing new songs
songs such as speaking people have never heard
of all the poets i dont know of one who was mute
so we will be the first
and people wont be able to shut their ears to our singing
im writing for my silent sisters
for my silent brothers
we want people to hear us and give us somewhere
we can live among all of you
live a life in this society…” by Birger Sellin…”
we write as in our nature, we speak when we can, which be not always.
Des
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learnthelesson says:
Des -
What you share above – is the way I feel in my world when I am confused, and lost and GROWING AND LEARNING. The only difference is I dont have two worlds to compare it to.
I cant get back to where I was before, but this is where Im meant to be. At times scary, unknown, and at other times simply just enjoying life. Being lost and confused is like hell for my non-autistic soul – so it must be beyond anything I would know in your autistic soul.
But the similarities are there…the same fears and not knowing which way to turn is similar. Not having any answers and struggling to see the point, or the direction to turn. You say you have naught to offer everyday people…but your above post offers so much ?
And when you do speak through your writings…it makes much sense to me.
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Mike says:
Des, I thought you might be one of those autistics who are diagnosed after being trained and practiced in interacting with the outer world, or are trained to do so knowingly. I didn’t realize what weren’t choices for you. Please regard or disregard what I’ve said accordingly.
My understanding of autism is that the subjects are challenged against moving their attention away from the exterior world of sensations, and challenged against moving their attention to their interior world of experience. So in Jungian terms, it’s always sounded to me like autistics suffer from hyper-extroversion — something like the way young children become mesmerized by the motion of a favorite video — to varying degrees of severity. All the pieces are there like any other person, but their wholeness is hidden not just from observation, but from themselves as well. As far as I know, I can see inside of myself as much as anyone can, so I am not autistic.
Des, do you watch the David Tennant Dr Who? Have you seen the story with the Doctor and Donna on the deserted Library Planet? I’m not autistic, but I feel like the veiled-girl who knows she’s in the computer’s virtual reality, only what’s hidden isn’t by a veil or by choice, but what’s hidden is how I need to say so that people will understand. That’s not autism, but being a bad artist.
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CAmom says:
Hi Mike,
I’m sure you know autism is a spectrum disorder…My daughter is autistic and communicates better in writing than in person. I think it takes a lot of courage for Des to come online and share with us.
Interesting theory about Jung and extroversion–it’s been a long time since I read any Jung…I’ll look into it. I don’t know exactly what the challenges for my daughter are regarding moving her attention around, but will ask her…she does tend to get wrapped up in things a bit…(music especially).
CAmom
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Mike says:
Jung specifically centered his definitions on the accounts of his subjects, not on what was observable. He said centering his definitions on observable behavior could have been used to deny subjects their accounts of their own experiences, and he specifically didn’t want to do that.
Most people reverse this, attributing introversion or extroversion according to observable behavior. This seems the less generous option.
Yes, brave.
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CAmom says:
Yes, well, getting a subjective account is better of course. But if you have someone who can’t communicate well, can’t convey their inner thoughts and experiences, then sometimes observable behaviour is all we have.
My daughter said she is writing a novel…science fiction. That corresponds with one of her interests. Fiction.
She appears to have a rich inner world, of which I know nothing about and never have. And she appears to be content, says she is happy with her life. An observer would say her life doesn’t fit on Maslow’s scale, that she couldn’t *really* be happy.
Maslow’s scale doesn’t appear to apply to all of us.
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autisticsouls says:
yes, you be understanding now, notmyMike. i be labeled MR(mental retarded) until aged 12 (and probable i was then for some time at least) until which they rediagnosed mineself autistic. i had no spoken words until aged 9.
i be had no ‘self’ although i be had long range awareness. i was as i became there be no ‘self’ to define mineself. like the wind i be had no real beginning or end, i be immaterial although there was a strange physical body keeping mineself somewhat prisoner. i be watched others all about like a ghost. i became slowly aware of ‘one other’. this ‘one’ was becoming and forming within the trappings of a physical existence. There be at that time no knowing who i be…i was as i became…
yes, i be remember ‘Silence in the library’ … myMIke loves dr.who…many autists are bad artists in language and communication skills. but myMike helps those with both autism and bad communication artists.
be so much often, they be all speaking one language but naught any understanding each other, they might as well be struck so by Babel… speaking many and having no understanding which would make sense…
strange issue they be having on days speaking one language and having no understanding, and no sense of the menagerie of their communications…
you need nearly a facilitator, like some of us use, Mike tried but stated he failed to make the link: http://www.angelfire.com/falco.....iosis.html
Thank you LTL, than i have, as i be requested, more understanding of your world and your experiences.
CaMom we be got your email. i be waving hello. do you see me? myMike going to respond busy he be painting stuff and working on child people projects. one child wrote ten pages much like otherMike here of content incoherent to the masses.
Des
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learnthelesson says:
Des-
When my second child, a daughter, was born my neighbor had just given birth to her second child, her first daughter. We shared all the joys and blessings of our healthy children. As time went on and months passed by, my neighbors daughter was not reaching the “milestones” earmarked for developing…such as sitting up, rolling over and eventually walking, talking…she was not progressing. Eventually she also had seizures and other sensory issues. My neighbor was in denial for a long time, until one night I stopped by her house and she had lost it, screaming at me that I will never know what its like that she has a child who will never be her daughter, who isnt normal – who doesnt connect with others or she yells out and makes noises or rocks back and forth. I stood there and said – you do HAVE a daughter – she is right there – looking at you and smiling at you. She has a spirit and soul like no other (truly captured me as the years went on with her sweet personality, fascination with ribbons, or colors or the most unusual things that I never took the time to notice in life until I GOT TO KNOW HER. I even became one of her support teachers, at her Moms request, I became trained to teach her by repeating words and using cards, and repeating social scenarios with her and helping her to integrate into school system… she has a team of people on her I.E.P. and helping the family. When they moved due to her husbands job transfer – I couldnt imagine my days without this little girl who my daughters learned to treat the same as their other friends…meaning although she was far behind in social skills, etc., they made her feel welcome and took the time to connect on any level they could. She doesnt like to be hugged (in fact she is very uncomfortable being touched or hearing certain noises)…but she continues to blossom and be a shining force in their household. She adds something to life that cant be explained – its beautiful – she is beautiful — so different –but with support and guidance (Which the family struggles to receive every year) – it has helped make her who she is today.
These children need support and programs to awaken all the possibilities that are there within them. Your Mike Rocks with all that he is doing to bring awareness.
I think we all are as we become. Some just need more support guidance than others to achieve their full potential.
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philomela says:
I originally felt that I understood Mike’s original question and started a reply which I never sent because the conversation took off on another tangent and it seemed that everyone else understood mike’s post differently than I did- So now I am very confused and disturbed by the conversation and the feeling that what I missed or misunderstood may either be what made me such an easy victim to the P and keeps me from believing and holding fully that the P actually knowingly did what he did to me, or on the other hand that maybe I understood Mike’s question (and for some reason the question got distorted in other’s misunderstanding and the reactions to it) and that the tangent this conversation took bears out my fears- Either way I am feeling confused and distressed and without the words to express it.
So, I understood Mikes original question to be about how a P-who does not see himself as lying is actually a P and not just misguided, and/or how you tell the difference between a P who has psuedo-insightfulness and psuedo-sensitivity, and may even sometimes believe themselves vs. someone who is in fact insightful and sensitive and honest and not a P, but who may not have good social skills or good ability at either making themselves understood, or at understanding the social cues, or screws up but without malice or destructive intent (from lack of skill or understanding) ,and so could easily be misjudged as a P.
I feel like I often screw up and am misunderstood and misjudged (on the surface) because of my atypical communication style, inability to read some social cues or social rules, my emotional intensity/sensitivity, my shyness, my anxiety, my trying “too” hard to do the right thing, my distress, my fear, my confusion, anger or discomfort and and mistrust resulting from what has happened to me? I often fear that my presentation (in the short run ) and my communication style and my feeling in some ways alien and unable to make myself understood or my anxiety can make me appear (on the surface) like I was the P and not the victim.
That fear of being misjudged and misunderstood (and of judging wrong who is safe and who isn’t) often silences me and makes it hard for me to explain what happened to me- though I truly believe that I am insightful sensitive, empathic, trustworthy, compassionate and highly ethical (and complex), and I do believe that comes through eventually in the pattern of my behavior over time, and how I handle misunderstandings and times when someone feels that I have hurt them-I know that the thought that I have hurt someone causes me such distress (perhaps more distress than when I am hurt) and that I will keep coming back to try to repair it- This is of course also part of what the P used to manipulate and harm me….On the other hand, the P never seemed to really care if he caused me pain or distress, or cared what I or anyone else needed except if it served his purpose to get what he wanted- his “insightfulness” and “sensitivity” was more of a tool in his repetoire to help he get what he wanted and control others…..
So, the only answer I have come up with is to look at behavior over time, and how someone deals with their own actions when they cause distress to someone else…. does someone use their “sensitivity” and “insightfulness” and “empathy” in a way that is focused on the care and well-being for others as much as themselves? Or, does it only show up to be used skillfully when it serves their purpose to attain something for themselves–Perhaps at times the pseudo-insightful P truly believes he is insightful and sensitive because he does understand on a practical/functional level what people feel and how it makes them tick- and how to manipulate it (for his predatory purposes), but he cannot comprehend the aspect of sensitivity and insightfulness that brings compassion. empathy and identification with another’s pain, or dreams, or fears, that normal people feel – an empathy or sensitivity that compels them to want to act to protect, help, avoid harming, or empower others for that others person’s well-being- perhaps the P really is “sensitive” and “insightful” but it does not elicit the same human response as it does in normal people- instead for the P it translate into simply information with which to control and achieve their con….but how is the P to know the difference if they are missing that component of humanness- so perhaps to the P they believe what they feel in response to their “sensitivity” is what they believe others feel.
I hope what i wrote make sense- and Mike, I don’t really know if this was what you were asking, or if this is my issue projected onto your question…I would like to know…
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philomela says:
Mike ….since I didn’t read the deleted posts I am missing the information on what happened in that part of the conversation that clearly was upsetting. But I really do also struggle with the issue of what you (mike) called in your post “allowing for the sincerity of the sociopath” in Steve’s article… All I can come up with is that just as those of us who are not sociopaths struggle to comprehend the internal life and “feelings”- core being/lack of a basic human connectedness of the sociopath, Perhaps the sociopath truly cannot understand/comprehend on a visceral feeling level the internal experience of the non-pathological…I know the sociopath(s) in my life hear my distress but perhaps they do not have an internal reference for the depth of feeling I have and the devastation, despair, and almost unendurable pain that feel as a result of what he did to me. I think he thinks it is an act to manipulate as it would be for him and so it makes him angry and his reaction is to do the opposite of what a normal person would do- his reaction, since he feels my expression of pain is a manipulation of him and as such a challenge-an attempt “to win the game”, his response is to continue to attack to gain the upper hand- to win. he does not understand that for others life, relationship, connection is not a game/battle to be won.
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Mike says:
Philomela, I feel like I’m going through specifically what you described in your second post, except you say “I think he thinks it is an act to manipulate” and don’t go so far as to say you are implicitly threatened with counter-accusations of being a sociopath.
This very site has a recent post recommending flushing out the sociopath by asking “What did you mean by such-and-such baffling statement.” There’s no defense against someone creating a panic over something like my posts here. That recent post gave me the slack to say I never refused access to my intents and agendas. Until this article by Steve. And now you’re letting me know you see this too — thank you!
Also different, my trying to call things what they seem is what gets dismissed as “trying to win the game.” If calling things as they seem means describing something no one wants to hear, I ask to be given something else to think, and saying I’m “trying to win the game” does not give me a reason to think anything other than what I say I’m thinking. If I’m seeing only the one thing, and say so, what’s stopping them from giving me their own account if I’m simply wrong? Again that “What did you mean by such-and-such baffling statement?” post gave me the slack to say I never refused access to my intents and agendas. Until the article at the top of this page.
I’m ashamed to say I don’t think I can repay the value of the respect you’ve shown me today. I am so sorry.
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CAmom says:
Philomena,
I had to struggle some with parts of Steve’s post and read it several times. I had trouble with the idea that a P could actually believe, in the moment, that what he was saying was true–if my P ex-husband believed he, for example, did love me when he said it. He may have…in the moment. But he did not love me over the long haul at all. In fact may have only “felt” love or something he interpreted as love, at some random times in the beginning of our relationship. If that.
My P dad used to hold a loaded gun to his head and threaten to kill himself in front of me and my job was to talk him out of it. I believe at that time he was truly in despair. I also believe he had no real intention of killing himself. But the stakes were too high to walk away and say, do what you want, dad.
Some years later I brought that time up to him ( a period of several weeks following the death of my mother)and he denied it ever happened. I told him it was traumatic and difficult for me. He insisted it had never happened.
A couple of years later I mentioned it again. This time he said, “well, OK, so maybe I did. Big deal. It doesn’t matter because I don’t buy your reaction to it.”
(I wish now I had said, “well, dad, it’s not for sale.”)
I never mentioned it again.
My aunt once told me, several years after his suicide threats, “I don’t think your father has ever had a genuine emotion in his life.” I never told her about the suicide threats–this was a casual observation/remark on her part after knowing him for decades.
My P sister also threatened suicide in front of me several times in the US and in England. I was staying with her in England after chasing her all over Europe and the UK frightened I wouldn’t get to her in time.
We were staying in a room 6 stories up. She would open the window and balance on the ledge–one leg out of the window, hanging on to the top of the window. Her boyfriend and I pleaded with her to not do it, to come back in, etc.
After about the 4th or 5th time I realized she was not going to do it. Her boyfriend continued to plead, she continued to act out–putting both legs out now and barely hanging on. I had the advantage of having known her all her life, and to what extemes she would go for attention and drama.
I finally left her there, with her boyfriend, confident she was just being her usual self with a new twist—threatening to jump to her death with a witness or two to beg and plead and turn ourselves inside out trying to make her happy.
I went to Spain. We had agreed to fly back to the States together on a certain date. I returned from Spain in plenty of time and called her. Her boyfriend said she flew home 2 days after I left. I wasn’t surprised, she does this sort of thing and much, much worse quite frequently. I was irritated–I could have stayed in Spain for several weeks or longer, but wanted to fly back with her and have a chance to find out (maybe) what was going on with her.
I had flown to England to attend her wedding. We talked daily on the phone. We discussed what she would wear, what I should bring, flowers, cake, everything. She sounded genuinely excited about her upcoming marriage.
I got to the UK. She promised to meet me at the airport, didn’t, so I made my way north knowing only the city she lived in, a phone number, and where she was working–I found her at work.
She never said why she hadn’t come down to London. And she told me she had married her husband and left him 2 months before. All those phone calls, all the planning, the flowers, the dress–lies. Why I don’t know.
She had married, gotten a work permit 2 days later, and left her husband the day after she had the work permit for another guy (marriage lasted about 3-4 days)–the one who ended up pleading with her not to kill herself in a remote corner of Cornwall.
Her husband (who I’d met before in the US) was devastated. He married her in good faith–she married for a work permit and a bit of a lark…she never spoke to him again. I think the word “discard” applies.
Maybe at one time she felt for a moment or two that she “loved” him, then decided what she really wanted was to stay in the UK and work for awhile. She needed a work permit for that, so insisted he marry her or she would leave.
He married her, and yes, she did leave. For another guy. The 2 of them left the city where I was, where she’d married, and where her husband was completing his degree at the university and studying like mad for his finals. In Psychology.
Her husband believed she’d been sincere in wanting to marry him. Sincere in their plans for a life together…convinced she loved him…I *know* she was sincere in wanting to marry him–for the work permit. Not love. Not a relationship. Not for the 2 children *they* wanted to have.
He finished his degree and works in the field of forensic psychology in the UK. He didn’t remarry for over 20 years—he lived with a woman, had a family, but was reluctant to marry.
My sister returned to the US, obtained an annulment on the grounds of fraud (claimed her husband had lied to her and told her he’d move to the States—which was a lie) Six months later she was free. A year later she remarried. At that time in the UK you had to wait 2 years before filing for divorce. I suppose in the UK she would have been considered a bigamist.
So, no, I don’t think a P can have any idea of what a non-P goes through and experiences. They can observe and mimic. In my experience that’s as good as it gets–the times when they tell you they love you and may even feel it, sort of.
My sister has no idea and no interest in the number and depth of destruction of the many persons unfortunate enough to cross her path and get her undivided attention and temporary adoration.
As with my (and her) dad, I don’t think she has ever had a genuine emotion in her life.
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midlifecrisis says:
Philomela the literature seems to point to what you are saying – certainly any display of emotion from us including the intense hurt caused by the constant betrayals causes them to treat us with utter contempt and up the ante on the abuse. I don’t know the reason for the contempt – veiled jealousy perhaps that they are empty and cannot feel that depth of emotion?
Or perhaps as you put forth, they judge us and our behaviour with themselves and their barren inner landscape as the reference point and see our sincere emotional outpourings as manipulations with no substance behind them.
I personally think it might be a bit of both. When they see our emotion, they are unable to ‘read’ it accurately and don’t respond as a normal person should. I think on some level they are aware they are not the same as other people in their internal makeup so when they see this emotion in us it triggers them to think about their lack. And then they rationalise that we are just manipulating them and have no real feelings to be hurt (again using themselves as a reference point) – then comes the rage for both reasons – their lack of emotion and rage that we can appear so weak and needy in front of them. Contempt is the word definitely.
Here are some quotes from Stalking the Soul :
“Because they (emotional abusers) feel impotent, abusers fear the power they imagine others to have. They ascribe to them, in an almost delirious and crazy sense, a malice that is only a projection of their own malevolence.” (p.134)
“The ideal outcome for the abuser is to succeed in making the other ‘evil’, which transforms the evil into something more normal because now it is shared. He wants to inject the other with what is bad in him. To corrupt is the ultimate goal. His greatest satisfaction lies in driving his target to destructive acts or, in a larger framework, leading several individuals to finish each other off.” (p.121)
“Abusive human beings unquestionably experience extreme and fundamental delight in the doubts and suffering of others; they also take pleasure in subjugating and humiliating them.” (p.126)
The author is speaking specifically about the abuse perpetrated by narcissists, but psychopaths share almost all the same traits and conduct the same abusive campaigns against their partners in secret – both disorders are on the cluster B spectrum. So they enjoy making us suffer and the more we open up about our pain (thinking then they will really see how hurt we are, they will be guilty and sorry and will change their approach) the more they go for our throats.
We definitely can’t comprehend their lack of inner landscape – it’s so alien to us who care for others and have empathy. It’s just sick to live that way – needing to win in every interaction no matter what the cost to the other person. No wonder we all lost so much – we assumed the psychopath had the same moral and ethical structure we did.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Because they (emotional abusers) feel impotent, abusers fear the power they imagine others to have. They ascribe to them, in an almost delirious and crazy sense, a malice that is only a projection of their own malevolence.” (p.134)
well, that’s a biggie.
one of the spath’s big charade’s is to, after killing off and resurrecting the main character, is to project that SHE IS HIDING AND KEEPING HIM SAFE FROM THE PREDATORY PEOPLE (who are the people who loved him). She does this consistently and will keep up this charade for years. Tried pulling this with me, via one of the sock puppets – i never gave her a damn thing – not one fucking word of ‘supply’.
she can go f*ck herself.
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Mike says:
[philomela] “…so it makes him angry and his reaction is to do the opposite of what a normal person would do…”
Yes!
I once got someone to admit he argued contrary to people who antagonized him. I told them it made the person he did it to a martyr for the cause of simply standing by sense when he or she did so. He had no reply.
CAmom,
Not speaking to your situation, but I think there are victimizations where it’s insulting to someone to be told to just tolerate it, and that insult gets expressed as suicidal thoughts — where suicide is as much of a risk as staying quiet. I don’t default to staying quiet when someone says they want to die. I talk to them. I don’t inherently know why I wouldn’t want to.
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philomela says:
“Stalking the Soul” is a great book for describing/ explaining the behavior and motivations of the N/S/P and also how and why it is so devastating to the victim.
Mike, I think Steve’s point ultimately was that whether the N/S/P “knows” or doesn’t know that he is an N/S/P and is fully aware if his deception and intent or not is not the issue- and since we cannot truly get inside someone else’s head, the possibility exists that they don’t know what they are and that they are not in that moment the part they are playing. I think his point is in the internal core mindset or way of being which in the N/S/P is exploitive, manipulative and focused only on getting what they want no matter what- the reality of the harm to another does not compute or matter (others are simply objects for their use) except of course in so much as it give the pathological pleasure in the hunt and destruction and winning.
so whether someone is abrasive or not, or likable or not, or whatever at first glance is not a good indicator of whether or not they are a psychopath- though people may make that mistake- which I think often works in favor of the psychopath- my P is outwardly much more pleasant and soft-spoken and “nicer” and less abrasive than I am- he plays the part and plays to the crowd very well and very convincingly and in doing so can make me appear to be the crazy one or the P. So it takes really paying attention and looking for the cracks to see it- also since I am the injured party and in pain I present as agitated, anxious, angry, vengeful- “out to win” because I am (metaphorically)screaming in agony- while he, being detached and having already “won” he can appear calm and as the poor long suffering injured party at the hands of this awful crazy woman (me)- So, it often takes time and the willingness to look beneath the surface for someone to see the truth.
there is more I want to respond to i this but I need to try to go to sleep…maybe tomorrow….
Maybe tomorrow I will look for my original response to Mike’s question and see if it is coherent enough to be worth posting it.
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philomela says:
Mike,
one last thing before I sign off for the night…I would like to hear more of your personal story if you would be willing to share it….I get glimpses of imagining what some of your experience that brought you here might be….I hear in your words some experience of “secondary wounding” from being not believed, or misunderstood, and misjudged, in your trying to deal with and express your own personal encounter with a pathological–I don’t want to assume anything but, that is what I am picking up- again it might be a projection from my own experience in my recognizing what you seem to be struggling with.
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Mike says:
[philomela] “I think his point is in the internal core mindset or way of being which in the N/S/P is exploitive, manipulative and focused only on getting what they want no matter what- the reality of the harm to another does not compute or matter (others are simply objects for their use) except of course in so much as it give the pathological pleasure in the hunt and destruction and winning.”
Philomela, if this is the case, Steve’s article at the top seems to only create an additional layer of understanding to increase the work for people to sort out what’s what.
In his writing rules floating around online, Elmore Leonard commented on how Steinbeck would title chapters names like “Hooptedoodle” and “Hooptedoodle II” to indicate wordy chapters that had a lower structural priority to understanding the story.
Your observation seems to keep the “what do you mean by such-and-such-baffling-statement” question the independent vetting standard, and Steve’s article the dependent standard. This ranking has been absent from this thread so far. and it satisfies my curiosity.
[philomela] “I would like to hear more of your personal story…”
Whatever posts have been purged, the tumult started with reactions to my first posts you HAVE read that you found benign. Part of my story is that I don’t feel even this site is safe for me to share more without more of the same.
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philomela says:
Mike,
Certainly only do or share what feels safe and comfortable for you. I do understand feeling unsafe to share more.. though it is unfortunately a bit of a catch-22 in that without being able to trust enough to share openly it is hard for others to understand and help (and also hard for others to trust you as well)- for me it was the P’s vagueness and my not continuing to pursue answers in respect for his “fear” of sharing that the P used to keep me from asking or pursuing the questions and doubts I had – but at the same time it is true that sharing openly also increases the vulnerability to harm…… So I don’t know the answer to this- just more of the same questions ……
When is the reluctance to share true self care and when is it manipulation?….a similar question to the one posed in Steve’s article….How do you know what something really is when they look the same on the surface? – How does someone know which it is- what is real and what is illusion or manipulation? I struggle with this daily.
I used to assume the best and go with trusting- now I go with fear and mistrust and hold back and wait and see and watch for the alarm bells in myself-but it is unnatural to me not to trust and hard for me to act with mistrust- again I think that is related to empathy-I hurt when I feel misunderstood and mistrusted and unfairly judged or accused or blamed- for me it is a deep feeling of being unseen and unknown.
I don’t like being afraid and suspicious and second guessing all my interactions. But, It was my openness and trust (and trustworthiness) in sharing who I am and my vulnerabilities that got turned back on me by the P. So now I feel “unsafe” in sharing most of the time these days-not so much here but in general-
Perhaps for me the worst part of what happened to me is that pervasive internal feeling of fear and confusion and feeling silenced that I live with- the P used twisted everything I said or did and used it as a weapon to harm me and made me even mistrust myself, and he used others so skillfully to reinforce that harm and the fear and self-doubt I now feel.
I often spend hours trying to write my thoughts fearing that what I say will be misunderstood, twisted etc.. I live in a kind of fear of my own vulnerability and fragility and that I cannot withstand any more blows- and it silences me in fear. I didn’t know- I believed the illusion that was he P- so how does anyone know whether I am really who I present myself as?….how do I know that anyone is who they present themselves to be…..? I struggle with the feeling that my own words in trying to to reach out for help will be used to hurt me more and are what make me unsafe- I cannot trust my own judgment or my own perceptions anymore and I am afraid to trust anyone else as well. I am struggling not to just retreat and hide out in fear. I find myself paralyzed by this fear-silenced in terror.
As for the rest of what you wrote about Steve’s article, I am not sure I understand what you are saying- Would you mind trying again in a different way?
I really want to understand what you said because I think we are both trying to understand the same issue – I am really struggling with this issue of how to “sort out what’s what” –
I do think that Steve’s article gives some insight into that for me- I think his point is that at some point in judging who is safe or not, that perhaps the intent or reasons behind someone’s actions (or even what they believe about themselves) may only matter in terms of understanding why or how they do what they do, but does not make as much difference in terms of deciding whether someone is safe to be around….If someone’s actions prove repeatedly to be exploitative, misleading, deceptive or crazy making, or harmful in their results, and are repeatedly without regard for the feelings, well-being or rights or safety of others and there is no reciprocity of care in action or in really trying to clarify things and repair damage done- then they are not safe to be around-it doesn’t really matter at that point (in its effect on others and whether one is safe around them) why they do it or whether they are a P/N/S or just a screwed up normal neurotic-
I stayed with my P because I kept believing his words that he was “really trying” until I finally began to look carefully at his actions and patterns and understood that the harm he was doing was still harm, and that even if he believed he was “really trying” to fix it his actions did not reflect that or that there was any real care for what he was doing to me as long as he felt OK- that was his standard- whether I was OK didn’t figure into it- so he wasn’t fixing “it” he was simply avoiding discomfort or consequences for himself- he just kept repeating the harm and the cycle….whether he is a P, or not a P, he is still toxic and harmful to me and anyone else who trusted him- his behavior and actions is still exploitative and he shows no real concern compassion or remorse for the harm he caused to others- the only concern he shows is for himself and his own desires, wants and needs- his highest value is his own comfort….He felt that because “he was working on himself” and “gaining insight”, all the harmful effects of his behavior on others should simply be excused without his needing to do anything to make amends or repair the damage. that is pseudo-insightfulness…insightfulness only for one’s own gain- to get better at the con.
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ErinBrock says:
Philomena:
Well said!
Crazy making…..through projection, mirroring, word twist, smokescreening, love bombing……never answering the direct questions and so on and so on ans soooooo on.
“for me it was the P’s vagueness and my not continuing to pursue answers”
So true……I always say….if you suspect someone’s motives or behaviors….ASK THE “NEXT” question….and S’s have a knack for ‘shutting’ peeps down.
Spath speak is NOT something society is accostomed to digging deep into. We are taught over time to ‘assume’ the words for interpretive face value…..it’s the portrayal.
The S i was divorcing….stated in court….”My car is NOT running”.
He portrayed that his car had mechanical problems….by this statement.
He assumed the judge would order me to let him have my ‘running’ car.
Well…..what he really meant was…..she has a better car, I trashed mine, it’s falling apart and I WANT YOU JUDGE, to award me her car…..His wasn’t ‘running’ because the KEYS weren’t IN the ignition.
I pointed out tothe judge the spath speak….and stated, in that case, by his definition….MY CAR ISN”T RUNNING EITHER!
The judge ‘got it’. And approached from a differetn angle…..
asking him about his children and how many are driving….and then pointed out that they need a RELIABLE….RUNNING car to maintain their necessities of life….to get to and fro….and since their mother, as primary car giver to all children, needs a RUNNING automobile to provide for their safety and necessities….she shall keep the new car.
It was a Backatcha from the judge….
BUT society would assume his car was ‘in the shop’ or he was ‘without’ wheels…..he manipulated words to gain ‘sympathy’ or attempt to exploit others.
This is what they do…….
Just like the S shouting from the rooftops….I support my children.
Well, um yes…..but does $300 dollars support several teenagers?
And does he tell peeps that the $300 was determined based on his lying to all, saying he doesn’t work?
Is $300 fair or adequate?
How many of the people he declares his ‘taking car of his kids’ statements to….ask him….HOW MUCH IS YOUR CHILD SUPPORT? HOW WAS IT DETERMINED?
ASK THE NEXT QUESTION? Very few if any…..we are schooled to ‘shut up’…..groomed to ‘trust’ and no need to ask THE NEXT QUESTION.
It’s difficult to interact with a person with vague and twisted responses…..
I have a certain, reasonable expectation of communication from the people I interact with.
Otherwise…..what’s the point?
Good post! Bravo!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
“for me it was the P’s vagueness and my not continuing to pursue answers”
i did this very thing – he was so broken and wounded…blah blah blah.
but i do it with other people too. f*ck. i was deeply shcooled in it the 4 years prior to meeting the spath as i was taking care of my my with AD
was always ever so careful to make the easiest environment for her…which means go with the delusions, and unless someones physical health is at risk, don’t push or point out that no, in fact, no one has stolen the colander (which is probably in the dryer. when she dies there will be 20 tubes of lipstick recovered from the nooks and crannies of that house.)
i need to come to a place where i always ask the next question. always. it needs to be a bottom line.
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ErinBrock says:
For sure!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hi eb, want to ask how it went, but realize, you are on the other side of the continent – so the day is just beginning there.
best luck with it.
it’s the best serial going on lf!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
‘best’, ’cause you keep winning.
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ErinBrock says:
I’m heading off in a bit…..
Gotta run….
Checkin lates…..
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Psyche says:
Philomela,
I wanted to say that in many ways, I’m where you’re at with things now. I have questions like yours, and observations like yours, too. I also find it interesting that we’ve both chosen screen names from Greek mythology.
Just as background, I let my S-path go 3 years and 4 days ago. When I let him go, I did it while I still loved him, and wanted all of us to heal. I let him go once I realized that he was so disordered, there could never be any order (at least not any I could bring to him). At the time, I didn’t really know what S-paths and narcissists were.
I was about to figure it out. It would take another year before I realized just how many I had in my life, built it to every structure I’d ever constructed.
Now I’ve got three teams of them working against me, around the clock, in three different places on the planet (where my work and life have been based). And they’re all very happy, exceedingly pleased to be playing with what I’ve given them, and finding supporters among the gossips and haters who love to target me, too. And to normal people, I appear like the crazy, agitated, suspicious, (bad in every way) person.
I also hurt when I feel mistrusted, my natural inclination is to trust and be trusted. I want to give to others without having to think twice. Now I hold back, everything, and feel the weight of not being able to trust. Now I don’t even trust myself to determine what illusion and reality are, what my rights are. I have that pervasive feeling of fear, too. And I feel sick in my silence, having to put on the show of being normal when I know nothing is normal or right. I can’t talk about the reasons for my anger to normal people, because normal people will only see me as the problem, if I speak about the problem. I don’t know what’s normal or real anymore either, even though I use words like ‘normal’.
One thing I can say is that time alone can help, if you spend it taking care of yourself, giving yourself all the things you can to make yourself feel cared-for, loved, respected and, most of all, comfortable. I take one day a week now when I have no email, no phone calls, I clean the house completely the day before, put everything in order that needs ordering, I make all my food a day in advance so that I won’t even have to cook, and then I’m free to do whatever I feel like doing for that day. Most of the time I rest, I reinforce the idea that the outside world doesn’t matter to me so much as I think it does. And I pray, and read, and I try to find the answers and understanding that I seek. The big answers that have come to me tend to surface on those days, as have remarkable bouts of forgiveness and letting go. And my energy is renewed during that time. I have to go back to the struggles the day after, and often fall back into old, harmful ways of being, but those days in private contemplation and rest make a world of difference.
Too much time alone would be a failure and retreat, and amount to hiding out in fear, which you said you’re struggling not to do. I can say that too much time alone, when I’ve had the chance for it, did do harm. But the one day off a week has been the greatest gift I’ve ever given myself. Even if the world caught on fire on one of those days off, I doubt I’d care enough to give up my day for rest and reflection.
Like you, I struggle to trust my own judgment now, spending hours working out in writing and/or thought what must be right and wrong for me. We have the choice in this life to say ‘yes’ to some things, and ‘no’ to others, and it takes me soooo very long to reach a yes or no on anything.
Also, I think the Philomela of Greek myth is an important reference; thank you for reminding me of her story, and the extremes that our abusers will go to, to silence us.
Someone might cut out our tongues, to keep us from revealing their crimes, but there are ways to show the world the truth. I can only speak for myself, but thanks to the metaphor in Philomela’s story, I think I know now how I will have to get my truth out. I will weave a tapestry (not literally, but using what I have to work with), and tell my story to the world that way. If no one listens, and if there is no justice in the end, at least I won’t have given in to living in wounded, fearful, horrified silence with the hideous truths that I’ve discovered.
I think there must be a way for you, too, to not have to live ‘silenced in terror.’ I think there must be a metaphorical tapestry for you to weave, too, so that you can express your truths, and live with the measure of relief that could come with that.
In your posts, I get the idea that I see what you see, that these Spaths only ‘fix’ what they have to, in order to preserve their bottom-line values (they must feel OK, everything is a means to that end). Their impact on others is only considered as a means to narcissistic supply, not actually about whether or not their suppliers are OK. All changes, all solutions to ‘help the relationship’ are always illusions, because they aren’t in a relationship that’s about the feelings of two people.
Your posts (and Mike’s) are a good reminder to me that decent people (1) don’t use the ‘offense is the best defense’ tactic, and (2) they DO want to understand and care for the feelings of the person they’re supposed to be in a relationship with. If I sometimes can’t see my way through all of the confusion that they stir up, and if I sometimes can’t tell the difference between a ‘normal neurotic’ and an SPath, at least I know those two things are true now.
Thank you for reminding me of the Philomela story (in your choice of screen name). It’s a good lesson for a person (me) who feels she’s been brutalized into silence, after being brutalized on every other possible level first.
Sorry for the long post, there’s a lot I want to get out these days. Talking to people here is my only way to talk with people who can understand, and to learn from people who are struggling to understand the same kinds of things. anyway, I’ve appreciated your recent postings, and Mike’s too.
Psyche
Psyche
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witsend says:
Camom,
I think it is hard to wrap our brain around so much of this because it is hard to concieve the lack of a moral compass.
Everything we do, we have to “answer to” our concscience. An S/P/N doesn’t have one. We know this intellectually, but emotionally it is still hard to grasp this concept. Having a concscience, motivates how we behave and what choices we make. If we do the “wrong” thing we know we have to face the consequence. Even if the consequence is just simply answering to ourselves.
An S/P/N doesn’t just lie, they are the lie. If you or I told someone : “I love you”. There is emotion behind those words.
The words are an expression of the feeling we have.
The distorted thinking process of an S/P/N believing what they say in the moment is not about FEELING it, in the same sense as we would. But what is behind those words is an unwavering belief in himself. He does become the performance. The illusion he creates. He believes the lie to the degree that he becomes one and the same with it.
It really is about his perception of the lie. If he percieves it to be true, in that moment it is his truth. The AGENDA behind the motivation to lie is always there, and very “real” to an S/P/N, and that drive is without any reasonable explanation. (that we can fully understand) Other than it is always self serving.
That is why they might deliver acadamy award winning performances at times. They don’t believe all their lies. But when they do, and they “take on” that persona, that is how they maneuver themselves into our lives to begin with. That is how they navigate themselves in this world.
The more I try and understand this disorder, the more questions I have. However from seeing it progress, in a young person, I am believing more and more that perception…What they percieve to be…..Has alot to do with trying to understand their “make up”.
And when you take away, the ability to feel love, the ability to recieve it, and compassion, empathy, concscience, moral reasoning, what really is left? An empty shell. Maybe they really do need us to survive. To feed off of?
Does any of this make any sense to you? It is always difficult for me to find the words to convey my thoughts, and observations, that make sense.
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philomela says:
Hey EB,
Thank you for your reply! It was just the validation and understanding I needed at the moment. I wasn’t sure if I was clear..
.I loved your “his car isn’t running” example!!!- good for you on getting the judge to see it. It made me laugh out loud with recognition- I have some examples from my P of exactly the same thing- I will share them if I have time later-
but…. the bottom line is- Keep asking questions- Be aware of the natural tendency to fill in the blanks, assuming normalcy and shared reality with anyone- and Don’t let politeness, social graces, etc. be used to stop you from asking clarifying questions, and Tread with great caution and care (or run fast in the other direction) when interacting with anyone who refuses to give straight answers to direct questions or clarify and be specific about what they mean. The details matter!!!!
P’s use the smoke and mirrors of impression and innuendo and rely on the conversational filling in the blanks by others. It was when I started to push for specifics with the P that the final stage of really obviously abusive behavior started- until then it was always a feeling of my being crazy or off balance- that somehow my responses were “pathological” and it must be something wrong with me because I couldn’t point to anything specific- so to others he always seemed calm and nice and reasonable and even kind (and I seemed like a crazy person out of control and accusing) but in reality he was sticking the knife in me while making the knife appear to be some kind of gift- The end was terrible and (he was able to still convince others (those who didn’t want to know details) that I was really the perpetrator)I am still suffering the effects but at least I have something concrete that I can point to and hold onto when I begin to doubt myself and think that maybe he was right and it was me.
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Psyche says:
just wanted to correct one thing I said.
I said ‘all changes, all solutions ‘to help the relationship’ are always illusions, because they aren’t in a relationship that’s about the feelings of two people.”
What I should have said that they aren’t in a relationship that about caring for and nurturing the feelings of two people. S-paths, do care about our feelings, in as much as they can use them to groom us for exploitation. I know everyone here knows that, I just wanted to be more clear for clarity’s sake.
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philomela says:
Psyche,
I don’t have the words to tell you how much you just gave to me in your reply. I am in tears reading it- tears for you -tears for myself- tears I need to cry- tears of mourning and healing and recognition and compassion for myself – for a brief moment in reading your reply to me I didn’t feel so alien and alone- Thank you!. Thank you for understanding what I wrote- Thank you for understanding my screen name- Thank you for sharing yourself and similar feelings with me….I often feel so alone and ashamed of the depth of the damage and pain and fear I feel in my internal experience and so afraid that I will never recover and cannot survive- and I feel so humiliated and ashamed of where I really am inside myself and so alone and afraid in what feels like my inability to heal it. Your response made me feel held with understanding and care and compassion-like a child held in safe protective arms… and so for this moment I feel safe enough to feel my pain and to cry- perhaps the tapestry weaving can finally begin…
Philomela
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kim frederick says:
Great thread. EB, about asking the next question, I will remember that. It would be completeely foreign to me to do that, in the past. I would feel like I was forcing an issue, putting someone on the spot…etc. etc. etc. I have been well-trained.
We must remember also, that manipulators thrive on the liability, (to us) left by our own moral compass. To the extent that I am able to empathize, I will be maneavered by guilt. To the extent that I would rather trust than distrust, I will be maneaverd by self-doubt. To the extent that I wish to be an open book, I will be read, digested spit-out, and essentually closed. To the extent that I value honesty, I will be called, liar.
Eventually, the only thing we have is a judgement call, but nowadays I say, ” if in doubt, leave it out.” I will err on the side of my own self-preservation.
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Psyche says:
Philomela,
I often fear that I can’t survive, too. I fear that I’ll never thrive in this life. ‘My’ shame has run a devastating course through my personal and professional life, and it reaches to three continents. Of course, the shame I feel is really the shame of a scapegoat. All the S-paths have projected their psychological filth onto me, and I didn’t catch on until too late. They got away with too much, because I gave too much. I’m not doing that anymore, and I bet you’re not either. But they’re still abusing whoever they can.
If you feel shame about the depth of damage done, always remember who did the damage. When you feel fear, remember that Spaths love that they can make you feel it. Sometimes remembering that pisses me off enough to make me feel strong again.
Taking back my self-respect and my basic rights has proven very difficult, because I sometimes fail to convince myself that I deserve these things, and I often fail to even know what they are. Instead, I hear the voices of my abusers telling me that I’m wrong to feel what I feel, and think what I think. Those voices dominate still, which is why it takes me so long to weigh out what’s right and wrong for me.
But I think that when we know that the shame belongs to these shameful Spaths, and really know it in our souls, the outside world will have to begin to reflect the changes within us, assuming we survive. Things will have to change when our feelings change.
I hope your truth can be expressed some day; I think that as it comes out, however it comes out and however it becomes part of reality, you will be becoming the happy, healthy person you were meant to be.
Victims of spaths pay twice, in the coming and the going. But if we get our real selves back (us, minus all of our earlier weaknesses as scapegoats for s-paths), our stifled truths can become part of the fabric of reality, so maybe it’s worth the price? I can’t say yet for sure, because I’m not there. But I have hope for us, and learning to live in strength and self-respect seems like the only way to make some good come out of all this pain. Evil wants us to feel isolated, alone, ashamed, exhausted and fearful in our truths, I’m sure of that much, if not much else.
If it weren’t for your earlier comments, I’d be feeling pretty alone. Thank you, and thank you for letting me express all of this stuff. It’s just coming out of me lately, and I’m a little sorry for Love Fraud because you’re all having to see so much from me recently. I’m feeling a little crazy these days.
Psyche
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Psyche says:
Kim,
Just a quick comment. You’re a 100% right about ‘to the extent that I value honesty, I will be called a liar.’ That’s exactly how it works, in the f’d up world of sociopathic-narcissistic projection.
And I do think after spending so much time in one extreme (giving and trusting and suffering for another), we have to go to the other extreme to regain balance (the other extreme of shutting out anything that looks remotely sociopathic, narcissistic or simply abusive). I’m willing to err on the side of self-preservation now too, like never before.
Psyche
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ErinBrock says:
I think it’s very inappropriate to assume someones discomfort is more or less than anyone elses?
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CAmom says:
Witsend,
Thank you for your response–very helpful and makes a lot of sense to me intellectually–still have trouble with the emotional parts of it though. I still struggle with the hows and whys of my ex some, but more with my father and my sister.
That an S/P/N *is* the lie…and their unwavering belief in themseves…how they become one and the same with the lie…
I don’t know why my sister lied about her wedding, for example. Why she wanted me to fly to the UK and be there for her wedding–a wedding that had already happened. None of that or any of her other behaviors and lies make sense to me. I really *can’t* wrap my brain around that…it is too far out of my ability to comprehend. I have tried for decades to understand her.
That she is self-serving…yes, I can *kind* of grasp that, but only in “horse” terms–there’s a saying that “whoever moves their feet first loses.” With horses, you always want to be the one who wins–or you can end up with a horse that will continue to push you around and become increasingly difficult to deal with. So you make them move out of your space–you cause them to act, not vice-versa. Makes sense with a (potentially dangerous) 1,200 pound animal. I’m not dangerous, or in any way a threat, but she always had my feet moving…
That sister is a well-known, relatively famous peronality in her field. I’ve followed her professional career and recognize she has contempt for her many thousands of fans, but she insists she only cares about her fans, it’s one of her most repeated mantras.
So no matter what she does, they believe the lie that nothing is about *her*, it’s all about *them*–they believe her even when she’s shown complete contempt for them. But it’s excused for a variety of reasons and never seen as contempt or any kind of disrepect–she uses self-serving lies to explain her behaviour, or others do it for her. (when she bothers to explain/have someone else explain–her latest stunt was to do something truly upsetting and not explain—so she could watch the worry and alarm of her fans, the same fans that made her wealthy and respected and adored–read their concerns their confusion and distress and do nothing to allay those concerns at all)
So see that side of her as self-serving, but also as risking over and over that they could see through her, or at least question some things she’s done…but her persona is so powerful that if anyone questions her behaviour publicly, they are attacked by the masses of fans who quickly make mince-meat of them…and are immediately silenced. She must get some satisfaction from that.
It looks like a game to me, to see how she manipulates them and to what degree…and how she must enjoy their reactions. I guess that’s the self-serving part. And makes her in some way mysterious–so when she shows up again, she gets huge press and attention. (She’s apparently decided to shift toward a sort of Greta Garbo persona–so whenever she reappears she gets even more attention—and her fans, so upset when she “disappears” give her tons of gratiitude and publicity and elevate her even more)
I think she enjoys doing very dramatic, alarming and upsetting things, and watch the fallout. So maybe she sees a “win” in having me believe and react in whatever way she wants—so I am moving my feet first, worried, reassuring, telling her how much I love her, and she gets some gratification over that…in seeing how far she can push me (and her fans and other people in her life) and still have us willing to defend her and care about her.
I did see her progress from a child who always had to have her way, no matter what, and would go to any length whatsoever to get what she wanted, to a “person” who now does this cleverly and successfully on an international stage.
The things she did growing up were manipulative and seemed evil and unneccessary…it was as if she wanted to destroy me in particular, but always hid it behind a facade of drawing me into her emotional pain, getting my sympathy and empathy very easily. So I was always off balance and not sure what was happening, what was real and what wasn’t. Like some sort of test which I never wanted to fail, feeling that if I did fail, I would have failed her, and she was too fragile to have to experience any disappointment…so became her buffer, her defender.
The acadamy award winning performances—saw those from a very young age. And saw my mother’s confusion also. My dad though…he didn’t respond to her dramatics. Maybe an S/P/N can recognize another one when he/she sees one. She didn’t try her act on him after a few times early in life, and getting nowhere. So turned to my mother and me.
My N sister (older sister) wasn’t moved by her either, until she became famous and now the N sister appears to enjoy the “special” reflected glory of “She’s my sister.” (So therefore she is special, *extra*-special too) I can understand that–the N sister now wanting to be involved in my other sister’s life at every level. And she believes everything my sister tells her.
So I can understand my sister creating a public persona, I know pretty much how she did it, but still have trouble with her personal, private actions. And statements.
The paradox is that while she appeared to need me, at the same time she did things others would have eventually rejected her for, even family…but I never did. So she became more and more well, abusive, and I was so caught up with her I told myself she must have some reason…for stealing from me and lying about it, for promising she’d do things and never did them…
The last time we had any real contact was when I got an email from her saying she was looking for a tree to drive her car into and kill herself. This email was out of context…she’d seemed fine to me, all of her other emails were about how well things were going. This time I was several states and thousands of miles away…and didn’t have a phone number (she began doing that on purpose–not giving me her phone number, yet contacting me by email). I was going out of my mind trying to figure out what to do…emailing her over and over pleading, telling her I was here for her, begging her to call me. She never responded. Since she was NC with my dad, he didn’t have her phone # and had warned me to never tell my other sister about anything she was doing if it was in any way “negative.” (My other sister didn’t have a phone # for her at that time either). I was stuck and panicked.
After a few weeks she emailed me with no mention of the suicidal email…I emailed back and asked her to tell me what was going on, how she was, how I could help. She emailed me and again ignored that other email…she was her same old “happy” self.
And meanwhile, I was all over the Internet looking for something about her being in an accident or something…found nothing –just the latest on her career.
I was finally becoming fed up, feeling used, feeling she was just playing around…I’d thought she wouldn’t go that far, to the point of a detailed email account of her planned suicide and knowing I had no way to find her. I thought she was genuinely in distress. So I began to not respond as supportive as usual. With interest, but no over the top concern. And she must have realized I was changing some, so quit emailing.
Not long after I received a call from my N sister saying the “famous sister” was disappointed in me, brought up some very bizarre lies my sister had told her about me–lies the N sister said she believed and would not discuss.
So…there really is nothing left to my sister. She did email me in the suicidal email that she felt she was “1/100th of a person.” I guess she may have nailed it in a rare moment of introspection, or it was another sympathy ploy.
There is no frame of reference for me, no way to explain it other than that she is very sick. And once she realized I had nothing she truly needed anymore, that was it.
But Witsend, you do make sense. You explain it very well. I just can’t quite grasp it yet.
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kim frederick says:
Wow, CAmom you come from one fam damnily. The suicide attempts, the having you chase around the world, the set-ups and dssapointments, the deliberate ommisions that totaly inconvenience, like planning a wedding that had already happened. Yeah, it is pretty baffling. I’m glad you’re here, and sharing.
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ErinBrock says:
“Look at the trouble to say it YOU paid, and multiply your discomfort to gauge mine. “
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kim frederick says:
EB, I’m reading a book I found at Goodwill called, Discovering Arguments. It is probably a college level text book on persausive writng. But it out-lines all kinds of faulty logic, and gives examples, and names them. It’s really very enlightening, but unless you are debating by the rules, there isn’t much point in debating at all.
I’m feeling about as inspired as a gray rock. How’s your garden?
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kim frederick says:
EB I didn’t mean to imply that you weren’t debating by the rules…just thought about how that sounded. I have dust bunnies to sweep out from under my bed.
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philomela says:
Mike,
I hope you will read the following as information/observation and not as criticism- I am risking saying it to you with the hopes that you will take it and hear it as an expression of care, and my desire to trust your intent, that it is intended to be.
I am not sure what is going on with you since I don’t know you but you seem very angry and wanting to argue. I don’t know if you are angry at something here or just feeling angry at life in general at the moment- either way, I really think the people on LF want to help and understand and all of us here are wounded and struggling too- and also I think respond with a sense of protectiveness towards each other as well- something I think many of us lost from our communities and families in the experience with the sociopath’s in our lives. So it would help (at least it would help me) if you would try to be sensitive to that and perhaps tread a bit more lightly in your replies. Definitely speak your mind but perhaps a bit more gently with awareness of when your hurt and general anger gets directed at someone who doesn’t deserve it.
I (and probably most of us here) have truly had enough hurt to last many life times and I sure don’t want more. I do hear your tone as challenging and somewhat attacking and I don’t know if you are aware of that or if it is your intent and for now I still prefer to assume that you didn’t intend to hurt me or diminish my feelings in your response to me,
I really appreciate Erin’s “taking care of me” in her response- I probably didn’t need it in this instance, but I still appreciate Erin’s coming to my defense and showing sensitivity to how I might have felt in reading what you wrote – I haven’t felt taken care of in a long time so it was nice to feel that someone is worrying about my feelings.
so,
Erin, thank you for your care…
Philomela
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CAmom says:
Hi Kim, yeah, in the right hands, my family would make a good SNL skit….
Was thinking about gardens today and realized s**t, I need to get working on those potted plants…sure need a lot of pruning, a bit late in the season, but need to sharpen my pruning shears first…think they can be sharpened on some nice old rocks just sitting out there taking up space.
Spring cleaning–time to weed out the old stuff! (and sweep out the dust bunnies too) And maybe start a new hobby, like, well rock collecting and sorting. I was a geology major in college for about 15 minutes. : )
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autisticsouls says:
Philomela, just popinng in to say your post was amazing and speaking volumes and i hope you continue on posting because it was received on many levels i’m sure by many. i hope that you do not end up feeling like you’ve poured out your soul and had the door shut on your face. your post touched me as it did others.
Mike, there’s a difference between rendering yourself vulnerable and being sensitive to others feelings… You can guard your own without being so callous to others.
here is Philomela in Ovid’s Metamorphoses:
“Now that I have no shame, I will proclaim it.
Given the chance, I will go where the people are,
Tell everybody; if you shut me here,
I will move the very woods and rocks to pity.
The air of Heaven will hear, and any god,
If there is any god in Heaven, will hear me.”
going off to read to the dolphin and put her to bed. it’s the Wizard of Oz we’re reading…
otherMike
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ErinBrock says:
I just want to clear up who’s who?
Autisticsouls/Mike
Mike/other mike…..
am I wrong….because that’s how I’ve interpreted who’s who…..
So my posts to ‘other mike’ were meant for ‘Mike’.
I thik autisticsouls may have thought I meant to him….as Iwrote ‘other Mike’.
Does any of this make any sense…..or is it just me?
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kim frederick says:
Yes, EB, I think that’s right, but it is a little confusing.
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