A Valentine to you: Yes, after the sociopath, you can love again
PDF Not long ago, Lovefraud received the following note from a reader:
Your articles have given me a lot of peace and the ability to see good in life again, though I’ll never go back into the mainstream of society because of the abuse and betrayal I’ve experienced. It’s sad that the vision and understanding one achieves after being victimized by a sociopath prevents you from ever being able to get close to anyone again. I’m working through that though, so I just take it one step at a time. Maybe you could write some more about that?
Yes, dear readers, we do need to take recovery one step at a time. But know that we can go back to the mainstream of society. We can recover to the point of allowing ourselves to open to love again.
For each of us, the experience of the sociopath was probably the most traumatic of our lives. The betrayal shakes us to our souls. But sometimes what gets shaken loose is the negative beliefs that enabled us to fall for the sociopath in the first place. Beliefs like “I’m not good enough.” “Nobody loves me.” “There’s something wrong with me.”
Those were my beliefs. They were buried deep in my psyche, hidden by my brains, writing talent and management ability. But my ex-husband, James Montgomery, plowed through my life, crushing the structures I’d built to present myself to the world—like my career, bank account and credit rating. With the structures gone, I came face to face with the beliefs.
The beliefs were wrong. It was the sociopathic upheaval that enabled me to realize that and let them go.
How did I do it? Quite honestly, it was painful. I cried. I raged. I released layers and layers of negative emotion. And finally, on April 19, 2001, I gave up the battle to make my ex pay me back.
Nine days later I met Terry Kelly. We dated. We fell in love. We married.
Friday was our fifth wedding anniversary. We still love each other as we did when our romance was new and fresh. Today, we exchanged mushy Valentines.
These have been the happiest years of my life. We enjoy each other’s company. We comfort each other in times of stress. We support each other in everything—in fact, without Terry, there would be no Lovefraud.
So yes, there can be life and love after the sociopath.
Please do not give up on life because of the terrible experience. If you do, then the predator will truly have won.
Instead, give yourself time and permission to heal. Find the blind spot within you that made it difficult for you to see the sociopath’s agenda. Recognize that you are now educated about this personality disorder, and you won’t be fooled again. Trust your intuition.
When we’re in the midst of the pain and trauma, it is difficult to believe that life can turn around. But we really do need to believe it, and allow ourselves to move, day by day, toward our own healing. Because healing can bring us love.
Donna Andersen and Terry Kelly at a soggy Phillies baseball game in August, 2009.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Hopeforjoy says:
Oh, did I say dating? Spaths don’t date, they stalk their prey.
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Hens says:
hopeforjoy – your right they dont date – they just seem to move in and take over..
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Hopeforjoy says:
Hi Hens,
They’re like a fungus you just can’t get rid of. They all seem to have the same m.o. I have begun to think they might be aliens that have infiltrated Earth and pretty soon they will have sucessfully populated our planet.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
i just got off the phone with my gram. her mind is really failing.
i don’t know that she will last the year. it’s so hard to talk to people with dementia on the phone – it is the same with my mom…it’s always a monologue one listens to.
i think there are spirits around her. and i think she is also having visual and auditory hallucinations – what’s causing them, i don’t know. she’s too far away for me to be with her. and she doesn’t want to be ‘fussed over’. i think she will probably stroke out or starve slowly. she does have people checking in on her. but she also won’t listen to them. but, you know, that’s her prerogative. she has been fiercely independent and really is there any reason for that to change now? no, she’s not in her right mind – but so what. it’s her death and she can do it any way she wants.
it’s still so very weird. and i am lucky to have had her as long as i have as she is the best of the lot, and l love her.
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Hens says:
Aliens from the planet Fungus – yap we have some fungus among us…lordy I cant even imagine my xfungus being a father worth a hill of beans – who knows maybe he is – I am still freaked out that he was bi-sexual or is that buy-sexual?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hens – you STILL thinking he was bi-sexual??/ Really? Not just predatory and opportunistic?
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Ana says:
One Joy,
Sorry to hear about your Gram. You are right though. She should be able to decide how she goes. Geez, she made it this far, I think it’s good you gave her that perogative.
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Hens says:
One – is there a difference?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
i believe there is hens. i know you don’t, but i think there is.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi ana, I am not going to move and go take care of her. she wouldn’t want me to anyway. she is 95 and is ready to die. i have been missing her since her mind started to go…if i hadn’t already been through this with my mom, i know i wouldn’t be taking it so hard. i will try to get up to see her. I need a car, and that’s problematic. I can’t rent because of off gassing, but i will put the desire out there and see what comes.
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skylar says:
OneJoy,
You have a very healthy attitude about your grandma: accepting what you can’t change. That’s what I’m working on for myself.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Sky – it’s the attitude she wants me to have – and there is a big lesson here about letting go – something that i used to know how to do. it’s weird though – another loss and i am going to grieve hard for her.
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Hens says:
onestep – this will be a loss that you can grieve for in a healthy way – I grieved for Harley – i miss him so much but my tears and sadness was my way of saying good bye to a good friend.
My grandmother was more of a mother to me than my real mother, she was 95 when she died..I could let her go and remember the good times – I will never have that feeling with my mother – she will haunt me forever…
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hens – she is seeing my grandad with her everyday. this is good, regardless of the reason. she is also seeing people on the TV pointing at her and talking to her…she says, ‘one of them is Indian’. she is seeing our ancestors…either by spirit or delusion.
i wrote down a lot of what she was saying. it’s the way that i can cope with it and ‘save’ it….i need to write it sometime in the future.
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Hens says:
onestep write down all you can – my grandmother told us storys of her father who was in the civil war – it was quite a story – i am sure she embelished but she was a great story teller…
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hens – a few years ago I asked her to write things down for me. she never completed it, but the last time i saw her, i took everything that she wrote. she isn’t a particularly reflective person and i know that writing things was emotionally difficult for her. but she did write some things – it’s all out of order, but at least i have some. i’d love a recording of her voice.
hurray for the grandmothers!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy,
I have a recording of my grandparents and their cousins sitting and talking and telling old stories. It is one of my most precious things.
As for your gram, I truly do believe that the “delusions” that they have are a COMFORT to them, and as they lose their touch with “OUR REALITY” they go back to an earlier time in which they were happy and content…so their “senility” isn’t all bad. It took me a long time to realize this professionally, but sometimes OUR “reality” is pretty GRIM, but their reality is less grim. So embrace your grandmother where she IS….and I hope it will give you some comfort as well. ((((hugs))))
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi oxy – i am mostly good with her being so delusional. the stuff she is saying is actually a comfort to ME. It let’s me know she is going soon (the sooner the better, as she doesn’t want to end up in care); that she is seeing our ancestors (i am trying to figure out if it is the sign language interpreters on the bottom right hand corner of the screen are who she thinks are talking to her and ‘pointing’ as her.); and she IS having fun with this. she keeps trying to explain it to the women who look in on her, and of course they are freaked out. But, she thinks the people speaking to her are funny (mostly – she does think they want her address because she was brought up speaking french and they need someone to interpret, and she says she doesn’t speak it well anymore, because’ you lose it if you don’t speak it’, and ‘anyway, ‘i don’t want to get involve din all that’ .
these are all things she would have said before the senility (such a gentile term), so i was having a devil of a time figuring out if these people were outside (well, until she mentioned the address thing), in the hall of her building or in the telly…but i think they are on the telly.)
Her brain wore out in her 90′s, mom’s in her 60′s. Grandmas longevity gives me some hope.
she told me some more stories about my materanl grandfather (the man i grew up with as my Grandpa was the man she married after her son killed her first husband). She was saying how her son is avoiding her as he doesn’t deal well with death, and has never seen anyone dead. Son is in his 70′s…So, i said, he saw his father dead…so she riffed back into that story. Of her husband saying to the son (new info for me), ‘when i am finished with her, you’re next.’
I know that one of his gf’s had sent a card to him at home and gm had cut it in pieces and sent it back to her. I didn’t realize (as per last night’s story – which may or may not have an accurate timeline) that this happened just before gp tried to kill her. Grandma wrote his gf and told her that if she could serve her husband to this girl on a platter she would, she was welcome to him, but that she should understand that he wouldn’t make the gf his 2nd wife, that he would run around on her, too. So,according to last nights story, his strangling my grandma was a reaction to her sending the letter…he told her she ‘didn’t have to do that’ and she said she wasn’t sorry and she’d do it again.
gf had her in a head lock when her son shot him. his face close up to hers, her head only inches away from the gunshot wound. she said, ‘i let him slip to the floor and walked over to take care of my son, because he was the one who needed caring for, not the other one who was best left to die.’ I don’t know if she was so pragmatic before she married this man, or if his abuse drove her there. I have her cajones. I will miss her so much.
grandfather=person frustrated and murderous with not being able to reach the bon-bon because someone is blocking his way….sounds like a spath to me. which explains why mom married an n – she was trauma bonded to a spath.
i wish i had had more time with gram after i started to understand about spaths. what a cesspool my gene pool is. but i know i am talking to a sister choir mate on that one.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
(((((hens – you have had a couple of significant losses lately. be taking good care of yourself.)))))
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy,
Yep, we sing in the same choir on that score for sure!
The senility sometimes is hostile, my MIL’s senility (after several small strokes) made her (who had been my best friend) hate me, and become paranoid…but I realized that it was not “her” that hated me, but her injured brain malfunctioning. She had lived with us for about 10 years before this started…and she ended up going to live with her granddaughters, the children of her P-daughter that she had raised. They were and are “nut jobs” I think, but they did take good care of her for the time she was with them before her death so she never had to go into care.
I am by her just like I am my P son, I remember the good times before the “morphing” into someone who hated me. In the case of my MIL it was the brain injury from the strokes, in the case of my P son it was maturing into a psychopath. With my own egg donor, I realize that the relationship I THOUGHT we had was a FANTASY on my part, not real, so I don’t have many good memories of time with her. It is all different “compartments” with different contents, but I don’t focus on the bad times, but on the good things. The little boy I loved. My husband’s mother telling me stories about her childhood, or the meals she had ready on the table when I got home from a long day at the clinic or hospital. The trips we took together.
Your grandmother must have gone through some horrible experiences with your grandfather that was shot by her son. The trauma of having someone shot with a shot gun as they were holding you in a head lock must have been horrific. Sounds like poster children for the dysfunctional family from hell. Your mother obviously repeated the dynamics in her marriage to your father by marrying a man who was so selfish and self centered.
Neither you nor I apparently followed the “script” laid out for our lives as we revolted against the story line of being permanent victims and enablers of psychopaths.
Whatever path your grandmother’s physical form takes from here on out, I think she has mentally and emotionally passed onto the other side, or is in the process of doing so at least.
I can’t remember where I read this or memorized it which I did as a 14 or 15 year old, but here is a scrap of poetry that has some meaning for me.
“first, our pleasures die, and then our hopes, and then our fears, and when these are done, the debt is due, dust claims dust, and we die too.”
Your grandmother’s fears are done…she is at peace. What more could you ask for her?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
“first, our pleasures die, and then our hopes, and then our fears, and when these are done, the debt is due, dust claims dust, and we die too.”
that’s beautiful oxy. thank you.
she is going – and now i am just going to celebrate her and grieve her – not try to control the death of her body in any way. she’s so special.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy,
At 95 and with her body failing her, having outlived most of her friends, there probably aren’t many pleasures left for her in this earthly plane, but losing her fear allows her to move on to the next plane.
Most of us still have some pleasures left and some hopes, and we still have fears and aren’t ready to move on to that next plane yet. Your gram is past the point of this earthly plane having much meaning to her, so she CAN freely and without fear pass on. I think that is a wonderful gift and you can grieve her, yet not with so much sadness or pain. Just be grateful for having known her, and for her example. That will allow you to remember the times with her, to remember her example, and not feel huge pain in your grief. (((hugs))))
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
she’s the only good one in the bunch oxy….it’s hard to lose her.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy, I am sure it is difficult for YOU to let her go, but in this instance it will be (and I am sure ALREADY IS) best for HER to let go of PRESENT REALITY and of this mortal plane in which her body still lives and breathes. That’s the thing that is so hard, is WE don’t want to let them go for our own selfish desire to keep them WITH us.
But, like with my step father’s illness and death, when the time came for him to actually depart this mortal plane, he was ready to go and we were ready to let him go. We had done our grieving BEFORE he died physically. So that most of the “work” and “pain” of the grief process was over by the time he actually quit breathing. I grieved his dying together with him which made it easier for me to go through.
I know you’ve had one painful “event” right after another, and sometimes we think “Man, I’ve paid my dues with pain, I deserve to not have any more events for a while” but that isn’t the way life works, I’m sad to say. Events will pile up one on top of the other until we think we will be crushed by the weight of their pain. You’ve had more than your share of them lately, but at the same time, I have seen so much recovery and so much growth in you, One. “What doesn’t kill us makes us stronger” so keep that in mind as you bear the burdens of more grief.
Stop, take a breather, and turn around and LOOK at what is already behind you in the last couple of years, don’t just look ahead at the mountains you still have to climb, but look back and see JUST HOW FAR YOU HAVE ALREADY COME! ((hugs)))
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
oxy, life ceratinainly doesn’t work that way – or i woul dnot have had the tradgedy in mine that I have had. those piles, well i think we could call them ‘cluster fucks.’ i don’t really expect that to stop. ‘there is suffering’…there are a couple of ways i know to live: to enjoy the tiny things, and to meditate enough that there is space around the agony of life.
i have not had a great deal of happiness in my life. I do not know how that came to be, but it is true. i do not know how to change the next part of my life – i don’t know HOW to make it different.
BUT, each day there is something that makes me smile. and that might be all i have for a long while, or ever. it’s not really ‘enough’, but it is still worth it.
oh my, losing gram is making me quite verklempt.
i think the hardest thing about cluster fucks is that they take away meaning. they depress me. they always have.
no good perspective tonight, just feel overwhelmed with pain.
fucking anniversaries.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear One/Joy,
Find pleasure in the small things of life. I think that is what makes up “happiness”– those tiny things that make us smile, that give us joy and peace. When we get the angst and rage, thirst for revenge and wrath out of our hearts and mind, there is ROOM for PEACE.
Even “Sadness,” like for the upcoming loss of your gram, need not ruin your peace or joy.
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Hens says:
onesteprs – is verklempt a new word?
one – your not alone in feeling not happy – like something we didnt get from the get go…
I gave up on happy and replaced it with peace of mind…
Maybe in our next life?
sweet dreams and sleep well – and take life one step at a time and find joy in your neighbor dog and anything that makes you feel peaceful.
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Ox Drover says:
Hens, I had to look it up too but it means “choked with emotion” and depending on which definition you accept is either Yiddish and/or German origin. See, I told you I learn something NEW every day on LoveFraud.
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skylar says:
oh come on, you guys!!!
you don’t remember, “coffee talk with linda richmond”?
Mike Myers was Linda Richmond on Saturday Night Live.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqPiJ0L7YmY
He made the word “verklempt” part of the cultural vernacular.
You gotta see this, it’s just to die for.
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mugged off again says:
Could it be that the behavior we are here discussing is true of 98% of men and there is in fact only a few decent men? I ask cos men in general are not very emphatic and its more often than not men who break up families either cos of violence or affairs?
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panther says:
Mugged….who told you that men aren’t empathetic? Did HE tell you that?
And which men have you been around most of your life that you’ve been led to think that 98% of men behave like this?
Someone brainwashed you, I think. Men are not like this. If you accept that “men are just like this” then automatically you are setting yourself up to overlook behavior that is completely unacceptable from a man–from any human being–which means the men who ARE like this will probably gravitate towards you, because you are the only woman who will put up with their shit. If you REFUSE to let a man behave like this, and stop worrying that you will be man-less (since then, by your theory, you’d no longer be able to date 98% of the population), then you’d be surprised how many men you’ll get to know who are NOT like this. I think maybe you’ve convinced yourself that 98% of men are like this, so then you figure that if you want a man, you will just have to accept that they are MONSTERS. Huh, I know a lot of men who would be offended by this
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mugged off again says:
Panther, LOL in a cringey kind of lol way…I have been brought up by a man like my husband..and my dad wont help none of us, he makes it worse, he tells them, ( his daughters partners) that they are obviously not in control of us if we are moaning about them, and decent wives shut their mouths and keep quiet.so yea point taken, My ex ex was kind of sociopathic too..so guess I am attracting these sorts, but they dont show their true colours till Im in too deep..the one I am presently parted from, seems to mimic others, when he is around my dad he acts like him, when he is around decent people he acts decent, he seems to be able to mimic the qualities of others, untill we are alone…and then, well then there is the monster…sorry…truly…was just on a panic and writing what comes in my head
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skylar says:
True, Panther.
There are many women like this too.
But they, both men and women, wear a mask so you can’t tell.
Sometimes, you cannot tell for years and years. Women, I think, can hide it better than men can.
They know how to make you feel like crap and gaslight you into thinking that this feeling is coming from inside you and has nothing to do with them.
I spoke with a man, whose wife is a therapist. He told me that she said that most of the people who come to her for therapy, end up finding out that all their problems are not inside them, but actually coming from a toxic person in their lives. It’s so common, that it’s frightening.
These toxics are so screwed up that everything about them is backward. They respond to love with hate. In fact, right before they attack you, they will often approach you with a pity ploy and ask for a favor, or they will approach you and give you a judas kiss. They do this just to enrage themselves and really “get in the mood” for the attack.
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mugged off again says:
Toxic…thats exactly what it is, they are toxic…I feel like I in fight or flight mode…I hate it.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
mugged off – you sure are in the thick of it. of course ALL men look like this to you, because the men in your life have been. you said you don’t see it until you are in too deep. that’s the story of most of us. So, our job now (and yours, once you are out of shock and awe) is to learn what the red flags are and start seeing them and not denying them.
you are in that raw raw raw place most of us have been in muldoon – but you have been on lf for awhile so you are at least a bit familiar with how to get out of this relationship and STAY out of it. keep posting LOTS. and know that ultimately the answers will come from inside of you – as they do for all of us. LF posters scream nc for a reason, – because we know that once we remove the toxin we begin to heal, and once we begin to heal we see the toxin for what it is, and then we want to be further and further away from it in our lives and in our heads.
so keep up to the nc…really is there any good reason for going back? you want to be that 80 year old woman getting hit? what a sad way to live.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hi hens- see oxy defined verklempt (and sky is so right about SNL!)) for me it is a yiddish word. a big part of the lack of happiness as an adult is the chronic illness and physical pain – i know there are folks who manage to rise above that, but i am not always able to. I was unhappy as a kid (no shit!), but as i grew older i figured out ways and things to change that. being deeply engaged with things brings me a sort of intellectual satisfaction, being really physically active brings me chemical peace (which i am missing now), and being with the right people – i can feel a sense of home, belonging or joy. Peace is starting to come (two steps forward…one step back…); shakey and easily shaken. I was in the best place of my life before the injuries, surgery, n and spath. I felt comfortable in my own skin and clear in my mind. i had space in my heart and a sense of joy. I had a lot of control over my mind.
i know i am a bit whiny this am. body and mind are hurting much. and i am just tired. I haven’t been able to do much physically because of pain and injury, and now more is hurting and i feel really sluggish form lack of movement. and i see how much the last mold exposure took me down, and how, the loss of somoene in my house has depressed me. so, this morning will suck a bit. hopefully this aft doesn’t suck as much.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – re not having sad destabilize one. you are right. (very buddhist of you.) not there, but you are right.
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coping says:
Dearest one joy-
It sounds as if you are going through some horrible and painful stuff. The mold girl, your grandmother, health issues… I’m truly sorry. Loneliness and sadness is a terrible thing and unfortunately has no immediate solution. Try to find the positive in even the most shitty of circumstances. I have found It is the small things in life that can help make the days easier. Sometimes you can’t see them and more often then not the come from unexpected sources. However if you can try to “look for the positive” you might be amazed at the goodness and love that is in the world. Sadly there is no immediate “cure” sometimes all you can do is try to change your attitude and have faith… Even if it seems like blind faith. Someone I know bought me a book the ultimate happiness prescription by deepak chopra… Well it didn’t help but it does put me to sleep when I read it- considering my sleeping issues there is a silver lining.
All things considered you seem to be coping well. Stay strong and live yourself. You deserve it. You are worth it.
((hugs)).
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coping says:
Love yourself!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
hey coping – what a sweet post. and i would have the same response to deepak chopra.
i felt the first bit of faith return when the roomie turned out to be real (she came form overseas) and not an internet scammer. think that little light dimmed when she left, and as she did. and of course the mold effects my mood too. that’s chemical and i just have to wait it out, doing the things i know will help. ‘coping’ is what i do…and right now…it’s just not enough.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
‘living’ myself is good advice, too!
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Ox Drover says:
One/Joy,
Yes, I have some “Buddhist” leanings in philosophy, and have read a great deal on the philosophies of other religions and philosophy in general. I’m a “read-a-holic” and find philosophy and poetry (which I think is philosophy set to rhyme) interesting to read and ponder.
Lately I’ve been reading a great deal of a MIXTURE of philosophy and science, the current book is the about how the concepts of Good and Evil were developed in evolution of the human species, written by a scientist who is also a philosopher. How and when and why religions developed to facilitate GROUP “selection of the fittest” groups by encouraging cooperation among individuals within groups to facilitate survival of those close genetic material among families and small tribal groups.
(If that makes any sense–he took two chapters to describe what I have tried to do in one or two sentences.)
I think on an individual level the psychopathic genes have survived because they do, under certain conditions, increase the surviving number of offspring from the psychopathic individual, but if psychopathic individuals were the entirety of mankind almost none of them would survive because they would not cooperate in a meaningful way and would be counter productive to the survival of the species, so it keeps them in check, but doesn’t allow for the doing away with them entirely. Diversity of genetic material does allow for the survival of the species though, as conditions change.
As our “groups” become “tribes” and they become “nations” the numbers of people we associate with become unmanageable for individuals, so we can’t KNOW which individuals in our area are to be trusted and which aren’t, so the psychopaths can move among us without a reputation for “back stabbing” becoming known within the smaller group, so they are much more able in our large society and culture to “hide” their non-cooperative and parasitic tendencies. In small groups (150 average individuals) you would know whom to trust to have altruistic behavior and who not to trust. In a city of more than 150 individuals you can’t know who to trust and who not to trust.
Interesting concepts actually.
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Ana says:
Oxy & One Joy,
I have ordered the books from the library here that you guys suggested. The didn’t have not one of them on the shelf, so they have to borrow them from another library. I thought, geez what the heck kind of library am I in anyhow!
I hope to get them soon and start reading again. Oxy did you get 100 years of solitude yet?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Oxy – this is why it is imperative that we educate people about them, and why starting with the younger generations makes so much sense; and why it is IMPERATIVE that we leave them; and once knowing that they are bad, that we DON’T BREED WITH THEM.
although the move of people from the country to the city; globalization; the internet; and the break down of older social structures give them freer reign, WE also have the internet AND COMPASSION. We can use the internet to identify, track and expose them. (Oh wait, did i say ‘track’ aloud?!) And our compassion to motivate us.
I would have NO idea who the spath is and what she has been doing for decades if not for the internet – both the other things people have written about her, but the internet played a vital part in my discovering who she is. And where she lives (sorry, feel like poking someone with a stick today – might as well b e her!).
It might take me a while to find some titles, but i will find you some good articles/ books on buddhism and science.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Ana – i love inter-library loan!
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behind_blue_eyes says:
I actually think my x-spath used the Internet to to reveal things about himself as several of his dating profile names are also porn site profile names and it was very easy to connect the dots with a little Googling.
I highly recommend to anyone using online online dating to at least Google perspective dates profile names. Also try PIPL.
You never know what you might learn…
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coping says:
Mugged- there are good men out there. This I know for a fact. My ex-husband (not spath) was a good one. Although divorced we still remain good friends. He is the only person in my life I consider family.. True unconditional love. It’s not romantic but real love. It’s complicated but it just didn’t work out.
The reality is men and women are just different. They way we think and handle things are just different. Women seem to want to talk where men seem to want to fix (in general and in my experience). However there are allot of shits out there as well. Sometimes the bad ones just obscure or vision. Lol. A penis does not equal evil.
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coping says:
Man my spelling and typos are really off today.
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Hens says:
oh my i am just verklempt tonite – I am trying to remember if it was Babs or Bete that used that word….
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Ana says:
Hens,
The lady on Sat. night live..remember..I’m all verklempt…tawwwk amongt yourselves..lolol
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