The sociopath’s imperturbability
The sociopath’s imperturbability has been widely noted. However, this is a generalization, not true of all sociopaths in all situations.
A sociopath around whom the net is closing, who recognizes that he’s played his last card and finds, alas, that the game is ending and that he faces inescapable consequences—sociopaths in this circumstance may feel forms of perturbability, like anxiety and worry.
But in situations where he perceives his security (however unrealistically) to be relatively unthreatened—especially where his grandiosity and sense of omnipotence remain relatively intact—the sociopath can be curiously imperturbable.
Imperturbable, that is, in the commission of his violating acts, as well as in the subsequent striking sangfroid with which he’ll brazenly perpetuate his deceit even when confronted with his flat guilt.
How do we explain this?
First, I pose a question: Have you ever played a really cruel practical joke or, if not, witnessed one (with enjoyment), that left its victim torturously duped, perhaps even mildly traumatized?
I’d suggest that the mindset involved in conceiving and executing such a prank, even the mindset (as a witness) involved in merely enjoying it, is temporarily rather sociopathic in several ways.
I stress temporarily because nonsociopaths will inhabit this state of mind only briefly and experimentally, and then, on the assumption that any suffering the prank causes its victim will be experienced as relatively fleeting and superficial.
But I use a “practical joke” analogy because I think it describes somewhat accurately the sociopath’s basic perspective in the world. Life, for the sociopath, is something like a big stage on which to perpetrate forms of ongoing deceit to suit his shifting agenda for comfort, convenience, tension discharge, and other gratifications.
After all, at the motivational heart of the “practical joker” is the driving question, Can I pull this off? This is a question, among others—a kind of perpetual carrot, if you will—that compels sociopathically-oriented personalities.
And the socopath’s response to this implicitly posed question is felt, if not implicitly answered, as, “Of course I can pull this off! I can pretty much pull anything off! Watch me do it! Watch me get away with this!”
In other words, the sociopath’s cocky faith in his powers of chicanery nicely captures his inflated grandiosity and sense of omnipotence. To put it even more basically, the sociopath thinks he is good, really good. And in inverse proportion to how smart he thinks he is, he thinks that you are just as stupid.
This is the sociopath’s signature contempt, and let us not underestimate it: You are as stupid as he is smart.
In the end, the sociopath ultimately takes neither you, nor anyone, seriously. And it’s not that he chooses not to respect people. It’s not that he’s unwilling to take others seriously. It’s that he can’t. And make no mistake: his inability to take people seriously, in an authentic way, is a core aspect of his disorder.
Does the nonpsychotic sociopath, intellectually, know right from wrong? This is a frequently posed question, to which the answer is yes. Intellectually, the nonpsychotic sociopath is usually well aware that his behaviors are exploitive and violate legal and interpersonal laws and boundaries.
But the point is, he just doesn’t care. The sociopath just doesn’t take these laws and interpersonal boundaries seriously, because he doesn’t take you, or others, seriously.
And so this is where his imperturbability enters. When you don’t take others seriously; when, on some level, others are a joke to you; when a malignant contempt pervades your view of others, then you can have your way with them, you can use them for whatever purposes suit your immediate agenda. Moreover, you can cause them pain and outrage as you seek your own ends unburdened by normal feelings of responsibility, accountability and guilt, because you don’t just don’t take them seriously.
So you’re caught in a lie? So you’ve been busted? Big deal. So your denials are preposterous? Big deal. Let’s remember, you are slick and smart enough to convince any stupid person to disbelieve the indisputable evidence of your guilt!
And even if you can’t persuade them to give you a pass this time; even if they’ve busted you cold this time, and your normally reliable glibness doesn’t spring you from the present trap, so what? After all, there’s no shame or embarrassment to be busted by someone you don’t take seriously.
And so the sociopath’s imperturbability, in this light, can be seen as a natural byproduct of his malignant disrespect of, and contempt towards, others. It is a pathological imperturbability, not an admirable, enviable one. His is not the imperturbability of a “cool cat,” or an enviably placid temperament, or the imperturbability that can derive from a certain hard-earned wisdom, confidence and perspective.
No, the sociopath’s imperturbability is that of an emotionally, interpersonally sick individual who, at bottom, has no true emotional stake in others.
And so finally, in his relationships with others, what he stands to lose, through his exploitation, is felt to be as superficial, and dismissable, as anything he stands to gain.
(My use of male gender pronouns in this article is for convenience’s sake and not to suggest females aren’t capable of the behaviors discussed. This article is copyrighted © 2010 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
midlifecrisis says:
Thankyou Steve – this is horrible to realise that we are not taken seriously at all – our pain, anguish, despair and torture are a passing amusement to them – you are right that they are sick – the sickest individuals possible and the most evil. Does this not taking others seriously stem from the arrogance and grandiose self perception they hold?
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 7:33am
Quantum Solace says:
“In other words, the sociopath’s cocky faith in his powers of chicanery nicely captures his inflated grandiosity and sense of omnipotence. To put it even more basically, the sociopath thinks he is good, really good. And in inverse proportion to how smart he thinks he is, he thinks that you are just as stupid.”
Oh, man! This is one for the books. If those few lines don’t describe the monster in my life, nothing does!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 8:42am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Thanx Steve,
I never really thought this phenomenon through. I used to think it weird that both the N & S reacted with impersonal irritation when I didn’t buy into their nonsense.
It was an odd reaction, because it was the sort of emotion normals reserve for products purchased that aren’t quite as advertised and hangnails. Recognition of our mutual humanity wasn’t factored in.
Your insights are helpful.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 9:47am
Cat says:
Thanks Steve, for the excellent description of my ex.S. This was one of those things I couldn’t quite put my finger on.
His reaction to the emotional and financial upheaval he caused others was short, if any at all. He “expected” the world to get over it in record time. Of course, that was because he has never had, nor will he, a normal response.
Yes, they think we are as stupid as they are smart. Each day, I take this a little less personally. I used to get so upset over his lack of reaction and I know today that just fed his grandiosity, his “I am above it all.” attitude.
He is what he is, evil is evil, and thank God I’m not living with that in my life every day. I no longer dance with the Devil himself.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:09am
newlife08 says:
BRAVO, Steve – as always……………
When confronted , he has always has an alibi . And when contradicted because I know the truth, his stock answer has become ” Well, it doesn’t matter anyway because we’re over .”
With a few words, he is able to dismiss me, my pain , anguish and need for enough respect to tell me the truth. He walks away shaking his head as if I am the one who doesn’t get it.
Me, of course, being “THE STUPID ONE . ”
Ultimately, I have given up my need to get the truth from him – it will never happen – nor will I ever get any respect – only an ingenuous glimmer of it when he needs something .
Steve, you never fail me in continuing to IDENTIFY AND NAME those behaviors and experiences – the feelings they created – that do continue to puzzle and confound me – the ones I can’t even put into words.
You are my voice of reason – my sanity !!!!!!!!!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:30am
changedforever says:
I am really very thankful for this website it just explains so clearly things that we’re wonder for years. We learn a lot here.
This article is so true. When my ex sociopath was facing the debts that took him to bankruptcy I was more worried than him. While collection agencies were calling every single day to my place, (he gave my address to them) he kept himself so “imperturbable”. Sleeping like an angel while I was stressed out about the all situation. Always showing an incredible “poise” and calling me “stressed chicken”. He even went his way out and bought more staff for him with the credit cards and told me in a very calm and quiet manner “If I am going to be bankruptcy I might as well spent and enjoy all the available credit” I was “SPEETCHLESS”. He went ahead and bought lots of perfumes a small (bedroom) TV and a cell phone, always with that “imperturbability”. Sometimes I used to find myself jealous of that “poise” and wanted to be just like him…NO WORRIES. Now I got it! Oh God after so many years I found the explanation for such weird behavior.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:30am
LouiseGolem says:
Wow. You nailed it. And actually gave me some comfort, this fine morning.
What you describe here: “After all, at the motivational heart of the “practical joker” is the driving question, Can I pull this off? This is a question, among others—a kind of perpetual carrot, if you will—that compels sociopathically-oriented personalities,” and in the following paragraphs explains EXACTLY what happened over the summer with me and my S/P, at what turned out to be the end of our relationship. He tried to take both me and his other lover on the same vacation! His other lover was his daughter’s girlfriend, and she went under cover of being his daughter’s girlfriend.
I figured it out within a day, and asked him what the heck was going on! And boy did he go into denial/compensation overdrive, and it got very uncomfortable and ugly. And then the abuse started, that lasted until I wiggled out of his grasp in early Fall.
What’s sad is that I do think he’s not psychotic, as you say, and understands the essential “wrongness” of what he did. And in losing me, he lost the person who (I’ve been told) his ex-wife, best friend, and kids told him was the most honorable and intelligent person he knew. (I’m not patting my own back, just reporting what I was told.)
So his imperterbability had no grounding in reality (whatever that is), and I’m really afraid that he cracked over the summer. Seriously cracked up, because the curtain was called. And I called it.
Which is why I”m scared of him
Sorry for my analysing my situation through the lens of this article here. But your article is very, very inciteful, and truly helps me put together the pieces of what happened to me over the summer.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:39am
OxDrover says:
Great Article, as always, Steve!
My sperm donor described himself in a newspaper interview as his relationship to everyone else in the world as a “human living on an island with nothing but maliginant chimpanzees” (the rest of the human race being of course as much below him as a chimp would be “below” us.) He also described himself as the “world’s smartest man” etc. By the time all these articles were coming out because he had become quite famous (and RICH) he went on and on and ON tellingn in print just how smart and accomplished he was and how stupid the rest of the world is. The funny thing is, he NEVER “got it” how he sounded to others or that other people thought he was a pompous ASS. He loved to brag about things he had never done, even though his REAL life was quite exciting and would have been believed and he would have been admired.
As it was, anyone with any class at all was TOTALLY DISGUSTED BY HIM, and those that did “worship” him were usually the ones that HE DESPISED THE MOST, ignorant and uneducated. So his bragging was a “catch 22″ for him, because since he never respected anyone at all, yet, he CRAVED their adoration, but because they were dispicable in his eyes, even if they DID adore him, their adoration was EMPTY.
I have noticed too, that with my P son as well as My P-sperm donor, that they MUST HAVE an AUDIENCE to appreciate their feats. It is almost as if they don’t have someone to ADMIRE what they have done, it didn’t happen. My P son and my P-sperm donor have told just about everyone that will listen about their feats of horror, and my P-sperm donor is great at not only telling the horrible things he has done, but making up more horrible things he has NOT done.
Neither one of them “get it” that no matter how much fame and or money they were to acquire, that “normal” people do NOT “admire” or even envy them. As far as I know the only people who “admire” my P-son are other convicts, and my P-sperm donor’s admirers are losers who think being “rich” makes you great—even the many people that he donated money to their medical research in an effort to “make a name for himself” didn’t attend his memorial service. His only TRUE admirer was his youngest son, who I also think was/is JUST LIKE HIM. Or maybe my half brother is just a dupe and not a P, I haven’t seen him in years, but the things he publishes on the internet are “chapter and verse” things my P-sperm donor would have said. My other two half sibs were also NC with my sperm donor at the time of his death (and also left out of the will) LOL
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 12:41pm
Rosa says:
A high school principal in this area was recently arrested for supplying drugs/alchohol and having sexual relations with a 17-year old student at the school.
Details of the case stated that he would call this 17-year old girl into the principals’ office, give her pain killers and alchohol, and then send her back to class.
Reports also state that on one occasion, she came over to his house last summer, and he snuck her in through the basement window.
They proceeded to have sex in the basement while his family slept upstairs.
Apparently, these types of incidents between the principal and the 17-year old girl have been going on for the last 2.5 years.
So, he was able to get away with this for quite a while.
He was arrested in the Miami International Airport a few weeks ago.
He had a one-way ticket to the Bahamas.
He told his wife he needed some “time alone to think”.
He’s now sitting in the county jail on $75,000 bond (at least 2 felonies).
This is how brazen they are, and how they can carry out the most unspeakable crimes right under everyone’s noses.
~Update: I just heard on the news that his family posted bail and got him released from jail.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 1:00pm
tami says:
I have a question that I’m wondering if some of you can answer. The article prompted the question when I read the part about the sociopath lying when they are busted. My ex S always tried to lie at first when he was busted but since he was not physically abusive, I was not afraid to stand up to him and tell him that I KNEW he was lying and demanded an answer for his actions. He’d then tell the truth…even admitting that he’d cheated or acted inappropriately with other women. Of course, he’d always try to blame me and I’d cut him off and remind him that “this” was not about ME but about him. So, he’d tell the truth but give some of the strangest excuses for his actions that I’ve ever heard! “I don’t know why I did what I did” was a classic. I STILL refused to accept that. Once I even got “see, I’m NOT perfect like YOU thought”. LOL! Once again, trying to blame me. Is it normal for some sociopaths to actually take their chances by telling the truth and admitting their wrongdoings? It was weird, he’d actually admit to the worst part of the situation…like that YES he had sex with another woman but then he would try to down play it by saying that it was just for sex or that she was “just a whore” when in reality he was telling some of these women that he loved them. Then, he’d try to lie about that and say that the woman was lying. After a great deal of persistence, he’d finally admit that he did tell them that he loved them but that it was his way of keeping them on the hook for sex. For me, none of his answers were acceptable or really made any sense. Of course, he was always sorry, swore it would never happen again and that I was the only woman he ever loved. Is this typical of a sociopath…to admit the truth in a rather twisted way at times?
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 1:25pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
tami: yes, I think it is quite an ordinary MO. The spath that i tangled with, made up new lies, to ‘reveal’ as the truth.
I listened one night as she went through hours of trying to figure out what i would accept as the ‘new truth’. And, I did find out that that everything she said, absolutely fucking EVERYTHING was a lie.
Once I even got “see, I’m NOT perfect like YOU thought”. – I got something VERY similar to this once. i called her out on a lie – and she said, ‘I didn’t say that, you assumed that, cause that’s what you wanted to believe.’ yah, right, uh huh.
they are a bit ‘fun house’ if we can really develop an understanding of all the tricks they pull; like watching a very very bad evil clown. hmm, now i know why all those clown thrillers so effectively scare people.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 1:42pm
Aeylah says:
tami,
They are incredibly arrogant creatures. In a twisted cruel way they will even tell you “the truth” as a way to exonorate themselfves from any wrong doing, knowing that they are hurting you and give themselves the license to keep on doing it.
My ex-NS did this!!!! just recently (before I gave him the boot for the last time)……he told me that his new “healthy approach to our relationship was to be transparent in everything”…..so when he told me the “truth” that yes, he had cheated on me, and yes he had just entertained another woman at his house and finally when he said…”I’m having dinner with an “old friend” this Friday night, so I’m not available for you”, he thought it was perfectly okay to do just that becaue he “told the truth”….regardless of the consequence to me.
Fact is when I blew up at this and let him know how hurt I was that he was with other women….he told me I was “over reacting” and that from “now on I”m not going to be honest with you about who I see because you cant handel the truth”!!!!!!!!!
a complete mind F@%&k!!!!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 2:11pm
Spirit40 says:
I am just starting to figure out ..he may have sabotaged a couple of my jobs in the past, and any information they have will be used against us huh ..one I was laid off/fired from the other I transfered on my own after he called to snitch me out to my boss after he devalued and discarded me for OW and I got her # and called from work on my lunch break….found out where they lived, Oh she had a pool…..yeah because he smeared me…what a piece of s—t…..I am analyzing every detail of my on and off time with him and it just gets nastier….why would someone want to totally f—k up someone’s life on purpose? because they have no life of their own?
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 2:14pm
Aeylah says:
Excellent article Steve….
Imperturbability…as it was in my case, REVOLVED ON HOW MUCH HE COULD HE GET AWAY WITH ….WHILE TELLING ME THE “TRUTH” ….and then watching me squirm with horror and pain…..Twisting it all around that the I couldn’t handle the “truth” ….THEY SIMPLY DONT CARE!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 2:24pm
OxDrover says:
Sometimes, it has been my experience that they will tell the “truth” IF they think it will “benefit” them, because then they can go into a PITY PLAY which sometimes works to get the victim to “forgive” them and put it into the “past” and never bring it up again, EVEN WHEN THEY CONTINUE that same kind of behavior.
There is some “unwritten” rule that we can’t “fight about the past” even when there is an OBVIOUS PATTERN FROM PAST BEHAVIOR TO CURRENT BEHAVIOR. It is like we are supposed to have AMNESIA for whatever they did in the past, and they get a CLEAN SLATE to start over with New abusive behavior.
Well, it shoulldn’t work that way I think. The BEST indicator of future behavior is past behavior. A few people change, but if you see a PATTERN, that is what is going to go on in the future.
If a person is a habitual lliar, or lies when they get caught to try to “cover up,” you can expect lies in the FUTURE even if you “forgive and forget” this one and give them back your trust. People who “man up” to what they have done and actively show REGRET and shame, they might have a chance, but the psychopath fakes shame and wants PITY….for their bad acts. NOPE–I have NO MORE PITY FOR ANYONE. I have compassion for those who deserve it, but no pity and no compassion for those who don’t deserve it. It has taken me a long time to get here, but when I see the PATTERNS, and look at the big picture—I’lll save my compassion and my pity for the people in Hati and other places who deserve it, but not for those who use and abuse.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 2:41pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
…..and this behavior is what passes as love.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 3:00pm
Aeylah says:
Right on Oxy,
and I unfortunatly played into the PITY PLAY again! I forgave when he underwent prostate surgery and said he had the epiphany realizing he had to change his bad behaviour because life was too precous to keep doing things the way he was.
He was being HONEST at that point. Ironic……because his new realized self lasted only 3 months, and then he used the HONESTY of his medical circumstance to exploit me and betray all over again.
I deserve the proverbial iron skillet on my head for going back….again…..but now I’m NS free with NC for the past 2 weeks, and intend to make this the last time.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 3:03pm
Quantum Solace says:
“The truth” for the monster in my life simply meant saying the nastiest and most hurtful things to one’s face. For example, a good friend of ours was overweight. The monster would carry on and on and on about “fat people,” “fat slobs” “fat pigs” and the like in the guy’s presence. When I would call him on it, he would say “well, I’m being honest and he shouldn’t be offended because he’s fat.” He would do the same thing to me and tell me that I “looked like shit” and then laugh and say, “well, you do. That [dress/shirt/skirt/pants] don’t look good on you and you look like shit, I’m just being honest.” For everything else, however, he couldn’t tell the truth if it killed him. When I faced him with facts, he had one of two reactions: (1) he would look me straight in the eye, deny it and call me crazy or (2) tell me that it was my fault and I made him do it (i.e. pornography). That man is such a liar that he can pass a lie detector test with flying colors.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 3:04pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Spirit: this article by Steve really explains it to me. This part of my response to being spathed is probably one of the most difficult for me: humiliation. I feel humiliated because I now know that all that laughter was AT me. I am holding the feeling of humiliation at bay, until I can safely feel it deeply, and release it.
I once hit somehow for pushing a humiliation button in me. I have hit three people in my life (although i am sure there were some sandbox tussles):
- the bully in grade 5, who had bullied me for a year st8t, I smacked her twice and ran;
- my mom, i hit her back once when I was a teenager, and it stopped her escalating controlling behavior that was becoming physically abusive;
- and this x who was incredibly dysfunctional.
She had laughed in my face about something from our relationship. I didn’t even think, I just punched her. That was 20 years ago. Point is, even having my N x’s fist in front of my face this time last year, didn’t cause me to get physical (i just promised to lay charges. if she would have touched me i would have defended myself – i was about 1 foot away from my favorite cast iron pot and i suspect I would have beaned her with it. she was extremely strong and should might have hurt me badly if she had let that first punch fly). but i digress.
humiliation – is the one thing I realized could trigger me instantaneously. and here it is – spathed. lied to. deceived. laughed at. humiliated. I actually FELT BETTER when i figured out that she was a spath, had conned me completely and intentionally AND is a PRO with 30 some years of this exact sort of con behind her. Guess she’s not quite as smart as SHE would like to believe – she keeps rehashing the same story with variations.
And there is ALWAYS a consensus amongst the sock puppets (there are always many) that her main character IS THE SMARTEST. Yup, she’s smarter than her own sock puppets! Stupid, stupid woman.
humiliated. and IT DIDN’T KILL ME. HAH!!!
Worst fear experienced. Didn’t kill me. Another one of those ‘presents’ from he spath. (presents like, cat ‘hairball’ kinda presents).
I love this article. I really love this article!!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 3:19pm
libelle says:
Dear Steve, I can so relate! My father was always “the rock in the perturbation” but in the same time the cause of the whole turmoil! He was commiting crimes, putting us in very dire situations, and he was expecting from us to help him,. bail him out and rescue him without him being any help with it.
First I thought he was a really RELIABLE rock, and protecting and helping to get over the worst as he always was standing quietly in the middle of the room, arms crossed, while we were seeking passports, his army documents, the purse, keys etc, and he constantly said “All will pass/ come forward/ get o. K.”; but he was the cause of it all!!! (he was so unorderly!)
It was him sitting patiently, quietly in the eye of the hurricane, and we as a family swirling around him trying to placate the winds he created with his remarks, acts, deeds. Of course we succeeded almost always and his words were the bare truth, TRUST ME!!! ALL WILL BE O.K. We became really good as his rescue squad! (I was the designated finder of the keys, passports, documents, food, cigarettes, clothes, shoes, you name it. I was always on hyperalert mode.) Now I feel ridiculed for having been his most obedient servant and him being the king getting what he was entiteld anyway!
My mom and my sister had to bail him out with hefty sums of money several times, and he still continues his dangerous play! But they play no more, or try to. He is still doing dangerous things I do not want to know about!
He got rid of most of our money by now.
He is so clever and above all us basic human lives! We are so boring! (oh yea, and he kept telling us that “He was not as perfect as we thought he was!” That meant we had to help him getting out of some difficult situation- but he is still WAY more perfect than we ever may try to acchieve!!)
I was always like a hornet, very nervous. I wanted to learn to be “cold blooded” as I think it is a great thing to be “above the things”, and to be kind of like him (a mere faded copy!) took me almost thirty months of hard anesthesia internship including many many successful reanimation situations to get a kind of near to the cold blooded state my father had as an inborn quality!
Therefore I also can relate to this article, as I feel validated for my efforts to get to this state of “being a rock” myself. I just have to find the button to make this quality available for myself!
Thanks Steve for yet another great article!
PS I decided to go for partnership without my mother’s money. Be rock enough for myself!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 4:08pm
robxsykobabe says:
I can relate to this post with SUCH depth as my ex asshole showed his colors in this arena when he asked me to cosign a motorcycle for him. Yup…and I told him no. This wasnt such a problem for him though cause, well, he thought if I didnt want to then maybe I would be willing to BUY him a slightly cheaper one, have him make payments to me over a 6 month period, and hey! ‘if we broke up you (me) would make out on the deal cause you (I) could sell it for MUCH more than Id have bought it for.”
You see, I can relate to how insulting these disgusting people are, as clearly in the example, he BELIEVED I was really dumb! He thought he was so slick to try and convince me that it would be an INVESTMENT for me to have him make payments to me…and if we broke up in the meantime, well, I would be making out on the deal!
The rational sounds very clever…if he were trying to convince someone without a Masters Degree plus 26 hours…but he didnt see that. He saw me as a means to an end…I have the money and he has none-I loved him dearly and he liked what I had to offer-I was generous and he was a taker. This scenario played out very systematically in HIS own distorted mind, however, when I said NO I threw him for a loop.
Looking back on things, I will remember that day as being pivotal in my understanding just how dumb he really thought I was…and just how smooth he BELIEVES he is! He prided himself on being a ‘good used car salesman’…which is not his occupation, but in comparing himself to someone sneaky and known to stretch the truth this is who he compared himself to.
I on the other hand looked at him like a juvenile or a child most of the time, particularly when he tried pulling his shit on me. It would piss me off so bad and I never quite understood WHY I would be so mad at his ignorance. Well, that’s just it–he THOUGHT he was smooth as silk in ALL areas of life…and I literally mean ALL areas.
I am, at time, just plain ol disgusted by him. Other times I feel sorry for him because he doenst get how the world sees him. He really believes the world views him as a stellar guy…until you sit with him for any amount of time.
He’s pathetic.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 4:28pm
nightmare says:
GREAT ARTICLE STEVE.
I HAD TO LOOK UP THE WORD
Noun 1. imperturbability – calm and unruffled self-assurance; “he performed with all the coolness of a veteran”
AND THE ARTICLE MADE SENSE.
ITS SO TRUE… WHEN CONFRONTED WITH THE TRUTH IN HAND . HE WAS CALM AND LOOKED AT ME LIKE I WAS THE CRAZY ONE.
THANK YOU
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 4:42pm
witsend says:
Tami,
In a way you answered your own question. You said that after you confronted and really pushed him for the truth, none of his answers made any sense to you. In other words even after he had supposidly”come clean” and told the truth (he really didn’t) you still walked away without any clarification.
Like everything else that an s/p/n does even when they are backed into a corner and tell the “truth” they put a “spin” on it.
If someone really COMES clean with you and tells you the truth after a lie they accept full responsibility for that lie. And you “feel” that somehow the wrong (the lie) was made right by both the addmission of the lie and the fact that the person who told you the lie has accepted the responsibility of it. And is sorry.
You never get that from a pathalogical lier. They put more effort into the “spin” of their story. The passing of the blame, or “if that person didn’t do this, I wouldn’t have had to do what I did”…ect. Even if you keep pressuring them for the truth, and FINALLY get it…Your head is spinning.
And you walk away still feeling like they NEVER DID really tell you the truth.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 4:57pm
robxsykobabe says:
Oh, and by the way…
Yesterday was 12 weeks NC with the ass. Im not gonna say it has been easy…well, its been easy to NOT call, but it hasnt been easy uncovering all the shit…
Im taking it one day at at time and trying my hardest to remember all the crap that I went through…keeping out all the ‘good’-as that was just the rope that was pulling me back
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 5:10pm
sistersister says:
Through this article I also see that a lot of lesser, not-quite-sociopath behaviors are habitual among some of my friends and ex-boyfriends. I wish we could choose to make everyone different and healthy, and never have to work among them, or love them, but unfortunately, we often do. I’m talking not about criminals just slightly broken humans.
The behavior described here is the victimhood script: “I don’t really care what you think of my behavior because I don’t really think much of you. In other words, YOUR opinion doesn’t really matter to me because I am the victim here, and YOU are the perpetrator — because I said so.”
I usually laugh off that routine, don’t apologize at all to this diva, because I see through it as the little manipulative game it is. (Unless, LOL, I am actually the sociopath and don’t think very much of this person. Which I don’t.)
The question for me is: If I’m so smart, why do I keep attracting such “victims” into my life? Why should I be congratulating myself on how little disruption I let them cause — I’m not calling from a motel where I’m hiding out from an ex — when the real question is, Why do I know them in the first place?
It’s really hard to discern our own unconscious patterns, but I’d say this is a pretty strong one for me. Instead of being that sweet, strong, sociopath-bait woman, I’m the hard, strong, opinionated, “thanks-for-sharing” type. (Notice that both are “strong”! Notice how my strength and superior intelligence didn’t help me leave my abusive sister behind years before I did.)
Like one_step-at_a_time, “It didn’t kill me” is kind of my motto. Along with, “I kicked his ass right back.” Perhaps healthy responses — certainly admired around here — but I want to know how to just STOP THE CYCLE before it starts. Or do I have to keep watching the sequels to this movie? Can I just develop a smell-test? Or maybe get over the fantasy that I’m so strong and smart and able to walk away from these idiots — so I don’t have to keep acting it out, proving it.
It may come down to just an “energy” thing. What kind of energy do we attract with our energy?
Victimhood energy attracts victims who are really just perpetrators. Sociopaths.
Basically, what would a preemptive attitude look like? What kinds of amazing people never fall for this crap, even a little, even to win against it or brag about how great they were at “handling” these jerks?
Not an accident that my favorite past career was as legal secretary to some really abusive lawyers. I was proud of my ability to fight them off and make them behave and actually like it. Finally, in looking for my next job, the interviewers kept asking me how much abuse I could take because this guy was a “screamer.” I said, screamers are a specialty! I just fix it. I make it better, make it work, inside of a week. That wasn’t the right answer. They wanted an “enabler” — I was so proud I wasn’t that! — but maybe I’m an enabler of a different kind. The kind who gets off on the fight, the drama. Talking tigers down from trees.
I’m also really proud of an incident where one guy thought that, because he got me drunk, I had no more brain cells left and he could take me to a hotel. I told him no, meant it, and was very emphatic about it (and, duh, remember it all very clearly). And he still paid for a cab to “another bar across town,” ushered me into a hotel lobby, and actually thought I would keep going right into the elevator. I kept going all right . . . right through to the other street entrance and all the way to the train home. It speaks to just how stupid a sociopath thinks everyone else is.
It’s been fun playing these little head-games, but . . . I’d like to stop being so proud of them and learn how to avoid going there in the first place.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 5:13pm
Rosa says:
Mine became increasingly controlling and aggressive towards me as the relationship progressed, especially when I would try to leave.
I became afraid of him.
He was NOTHING like the person I met in the beginning.
During the course of my ordeal, I realized that I was involved with a man who hated women.
By the end, I finally understood that it was ME that he hated.
Some of these disordered personalities can be very IMPULSIVE, and that really scares me.
I think we should always be careful when confronting these individuals. You just never know if they are going to give you a line of crap, or try to kill you. I’m not even kidding right now.
I’ll never forget back in 1997, when Andrew Cunanan went on a nation-wide killing spree. He’s the one who killed Gianni Versace in Miami, before killing himself.
I think it’s important to remember that Cunanan’s first murder victim in that killing spree was his FRIEND, Jeffrey Trail, in Minneapolis, MN on April 25, 1997.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 5:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Aeylah, NOPE, you do NOT deserve the skillet, you deserve a pat on the back for l2 weeks of NC, that’s the hardest part…but now you are over it, that first two weeks, and each day you are STRONGER and molre POWERFUL, yah! you are getting there!!!!!! TOWANDA!!!
Roby, you deserve a TOWANDA too for 12 weeks of NC!!! Way to go girlfriend!!!! That’s the spirit, it actually kills them inside when they can no longer control us and NC is the ULTIMATE CONTROL FOR US!!!!
Sometimes they discard us and go NC with us to make us suffer, my egg donor did that before she decided since her P-buddies duped and robbed her that she wanted me back….NOPE! TOOOOOO late! I am in control NOW! I am the one doing NC. I won’t let her get to me any more. I’m sure she thinks that I will “come round” if she waits long enough, because that is what always happened in the past, but you know, she will be 81 in April, I wonder how LONG SHE CAN WAIT! I have no intention of even attending her memorial service which will be pretty sketchy I imagine, only distant cousins if any are still alive and a neighbor or two.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 5:54pm
midlifecrisis says:
Yes that calm rational logical attitude in the midst of a self created crisis – I can so relate to that. He shrugged everything off – the electricity is about to be cut off for non payment? “Relax – I’ll call them.” Of course he never would. Same with the bank if the mortgage wasn’t paid due to his spending … “I’ll pay them next week” – NO you don’t negotiate with banks about when you feel like paying them – they TELL YOU when to pay them. He never took the consequences of his actions seriously – not once.
And there he would be accusing me of being dramatic or a worrier or neurotic while he cruised by in oblivion about the chaos he was causing. What utter arrogance. I actually tried repeatedly to explain the gravity and serious repercussions of what he was doing, but he wouldn’t listen. He would roll his eyes and walk off as though I was making things worse than they actually were. I was the only one with a handle on reality and he discredited that making out I was crazy for imagining there would be consequences and serious ones for unpaid debts.
As I look back now I see why it was so hard to get out. It was one financial crisis after another and all created by him and his selfish spending. There was never any money and I think that is part of their modus operandi – keep us poor so there is never any possibility of leaving. What bastards.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 7:04pm
robxsykobabe says:
Oxy:
I have begun to feel the ‘discarding’, I think. It didnt dawn on me that that was being done until today. I have asked a few times what people ‘thought’ about him not trying to contact me AT ALL these past twelve weeks. The reason I ask is this…I have a bag of his belongings, which may not sound like much. There is a pair of shoes in there that he paid alot of money for…it surprises me that he wouldnt want these belongings back, particularly the shoes.
After some thought and help from ErinBrock it is clear to me that he IS leaving his belongings here so he has a REASON to contact me…in the future. Its one foot in still.
On the other hand, as you wrote, he could be ‘disciplining’ me by discarding me as punishment…not realizing I ALREADY STOPPED TALKING TO HIM FOR GOOD! (that’s my power and control I have). What you said makes sense though…it very easily could be a punishment for not ‘apologizing’ and at the same time an ‘in’ to my life when he’s done doing whatever he’s doing.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 8:24pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Thanks, everyone, for your generous comments. I’m so glad the article resonates. Your feedback inspires me on many levels.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 8:30pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
wow, this thread really touched a nerve; 30 posts in one day!
steve has a very good article on ’stonewalling’ on his site.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 9:57pm
geminigirl says:
Dear Robx If he hasnt come by yet to pick up his things, I suggest you take them to a goodwill store, and donate them. Then if he DOES happen by, you can truthfully say you dont have them anymore. No explanation necessary from you!. You owe him zilch!Its only a ploy on his part to try to keep one toe in your door! Kick him to the kerb!
{{HUGS!!}} Gem.XX
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:12pm
geminigirl says:
PS Robx, He is not discarding you, YOU are discarding HIM!
The boot is on the other pedal extremity!
DO NOT FEEL DISCARDED!!
We love you, God loves you,and by now Im sure you love yourself! You need him, WHY?
Definition of a masochist,
“:It feels so good to hurt so bad!”
Sorry, I know your NOT a masochist, you are just trying to adjust to your own spath free space! gem.XX TOWANDA and High 5!!
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:17pm
ErinBrock says:
Areobicsgirl….I think your on to ROBS game!!
BINGO!!!
Couldn’t resist btw…..
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 2:04am
Quantum Solace says:
midlifecrisis:
You sound just like me. I went thru exactly the same thing as you describe. Back in the 80s and 90s, the man made $100,000 a year and still, I had to take up sewing jobs and babysitting at home to pay the bills. To this day, I don’t know where all the money he made went (computer pornography is one theory). Of course, while I was the one caring full time for two young children, paying the bills, putting food on the table and keeping the water and electric on, he laughed at me with all his heart for being a sucker and working until 2 and 3 in the morning to make $75/week from piece work.
I think back and so many bad memories come to mind such as the time I walked into the post office and was detained at the manager’s office because I had given them a check which bounced. Not only did they interrogate and humiliate me but they also threatened to press criminal charges against me. When I told him about it, he couldn’t stop laughing for a good half an hour.
There’s also the one time when he went to the ATM machine before a day trip, got back in the car cursing, kicking and screaming because “the machine wouldn’t give him any money.” I asked him why and he replied “the machine says I have no money.” To which I said, “well, do you?” And with the most self-righteous, aggrieved and angered of attitudes, he replied ‘Well, no!”
You just can’t make this stuff up!
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 8:33am
learnthelesson says:
I remember the moment.
Early on in our “courtship” we were walking in the park. Conversing about everything from A to Z. Back then we would walk and talk for hours. As we were rounding the bend discussing HIS past relationships- I said wouldnt it be just amazing and wonderful to have 100% honesty with someone – just never ever doubting or having to wonder about dishonesty.
His response was ” thats just unrealistic. And plus that would probably be so boring” – I remember IN THAT MOMENT feeling an uneasiness about his response (if only I was paying attention and noting every quirky feeling I had and made the choice to not pursue with him). Instead I just said my point of view – how I aspire to have that kind of relationship in my life – and ever so slightly uncomfortably laughed with him about his response. I did that alot
Oh and his phone rang on that walk – his response was “damn I thought I turned this thing off” – another red flag – HUGE RED FLAG…
Lastly, he was notorious for saying “I was teasing” or “I made that up” or “OMG you believed that” — MONTHS AFTER THE FACT. You know how sometimes we do tease and joke with others and we say Im teasing RIGHT AWAY. Well he felt he could lie about something and then when it came to the surface he would just say “I was teasing” or “you believe anything and everything”
And many times we would have these (what I perceived as) intense talks (because of the energy and listening I put into it) about different things ex. a dream he had…. and several months later somehow the subject came up and he would say – OMG I totally made that dream up – I never had it. You believed me??? I would say are you freaken for real? Who does that???? Who puts time and energy in making up things just to make them up??? His response was huge amounts of laughter. I would be stunned – so shocked that I couldnt even deal with the reality of ALL OF IT – ALL OF HIM – ALL OF HIS WAYS. I chose not to deal with it/face it and I stayed way toooooo long.
I remember saying because I want to believe you and be able to believe you 100% of the time. I want to trust you. So I did. Each and every time without fail. And each and every time I got burned. From the beginning I NEVER set out to have him earn my trust. I just gave it to him. MY BAD. If I had firm boundaries and beliefs in place about earning my trust – he would have failed in the first 4 months and I would have moved on without guilt or fear because I would have rationalized that he was not a good decent soul – took me 4 PLUS years. Until i realized what was unhealthy about me was not having a good sense of what a healthy relationship entails. A willingness to grow and learn together – honestly respectfully openly with the right amount of selfishness and selflessness as well as give and take…
“the sociopath’s imperturbability is that of an emotionally, interpersonally sick individual who, at bottom, has no true emotional stake in others.”
No truer words have been spoken about the ways of a S.
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 9:22am
Quantum Solace says:
learnthelesson:
The monster in my life used to do something similar, however, his gig was whenever he said very cruel, mean things and I called him on it, he would say “oh, I was just kidding” but if I didn’t call him on it, it would remain said and, with time, I found out, would become his “truth”
Funny, how they’re all the same, huh?
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 9:29am
blueskies says:
…. and the question is WHY would anyone want to wrong foot another… in the way LTL describes? Who on earth would want to do that…and for what gain?? What kind of person would even be coming from this angle…oh…:(
I need to see this kind of behaviour for what it really is in it’s ‘infancy’, nip it in the bud before it hurts me.x
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 1:47pm
myboysmattermost says:
When caught in a lie, my N/S would always say, “well you know I lie, so why did you believe me when I said/promised I would/wouldn’t”, ect. it would make me so crazy…
He is calling and emailing again today, now it is “please”…I am waiting on word from my attorney that the TRO, TPO and divorce has been filed. I have been waiting for this day for 2 months now, since they took him away and then he fled.
I have been rather depressed the past couple of days, lots of tears, why me’s and poor me’s…seems like everything is going wrong and I have to handle it all myself…but then again, as I recall, I always had to, he was never really any help.
He would take a week off for the birth of our son, or when I had surgery and tell everyone he was helping me out but at home, he would sleep all day or do his own thing telling me, “it’s my vacation”…
And when he got perturbed or if I was asking to much, I would get the “now you get nothing from me for the rest of the day” and put that stupid pillow over his eyes and just sleep and sleep.
I know depression is part of the grieving process so I hope that is all it is…
Do you recommend the divorce support groups? There is one at the local church and it is free, what I can afford:) Any thoughts?
Thanks!!
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 2:53pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
myboysmattermost – hang in there girl!
You are dealing with a tough set of circumstances right now, but are doing the necessary things, and standing up for yourself. and this is golden!
best,
one step
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Friday, 5 February 2010 @ 3:53pm
anitasee says:
Excellent article, insights and posts. Thanks once again Dr. Steve.
Glad I still read here because I always learn. Reading others posts and expereinces is still amazing. Expecially how fundamentally the same they (P’s) are. That still is shocking somehow to me. That there are people who are just like THAT, period.
The imperturbable aspect of the P/S/N/’s can, when done well, really resemble stoicism, strength, cool, unflappable…and I think that they get a huge amount of mileage from that, especially if they are in a business setting where these qualities are valued.
Flavor that with a wiff of , I’m just a tad “more” than any body else, and I deserve to be treated with adoration, but done in the subtlest of ways, with lots of shy boy interludes and “I don’t like to brag..”
I can so relate to Oxy’s post about the he that made the mess being all calm about it, and another poster I belive as well.
Ditto for mine. Sooooo Cool. And for the longest time I respected that, and when bad shite kept happening, I would try to match his stoicism. He expected that too…and had not much use for any handwringing on my part. But all that turned me into more and more of a mess.
I saw the pattern and talked about the pattern, and here too it was, “that’s over” “don’t talk about the past” etc.. bang on.
Presently I am dealing with his imperturbability in court. And he is classic. Deny, bully,deny. Stall,push, threaten. Refuse, deny, bully some more, and so on. But I have seen his hands shake.
Lately I have been deeply questioning if I should go on. And his classic “best defense is an offense” tactics really do have an impact.
Reading this article re-inforces why I need to carry on. Because I have the truth on my side. And he has humiliated me far more than enough.
It is all an act in any event. The I am strong and if you worry about my actions you are weak.
The stuff I couldn’t fathom he was being so calm about? It was all manufactured as a fear base for my benefit. And he was calmly knowingly torturing me mentally with these things. Now that I have unravelled the last 6 years of books, I KNOW that all of it was fabricated. How sick is that?
Thanks all for your posts and stay strong! Life is infinitely better without them. N’est pas?
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 1:23am
one_step_at_a_time says:
anitasee: i have read many comments and articles here, and i see my spath in so much of it. But your post is the first time i have actually ‘FELT’ her.
“The imperturbable aspect of the P/S/N/’s can, when done well, really resemble stoicism, strength, cool, unflappable…and I think that they get a huge amount of mileage from that…”
and she did, with me and others, a HUGE amount of mileage. stoic, honorable, suffering, but laughing. i just didn’t realize that it wasn’t with me, it was AT me.
“Flavor that with a wiff of , I’m just a tad “more” than any body else, and I deserve to be treated with adoration, but done in the subtlest of ways, with lots of shy boy interludes and “I don’t like to brag..”
shy interludes, a tad more – intelligent, special, sweet, knowing, self deprecating
all of it…
“…And for the longest time I respected that, and when bad shite kept happening, I would try to match his stoicism. He expected that too…and had not much use for any handwringing on my part. But all that turned me into more and more of a mess. ”
I was started to get that. That sense of being devalued if i had any needs or feelings that didn’t match hers. it had just started – ’cause i tried SO HARD to match her, but i started to need to have more needs met – and then the cracks started to show.
This is truly, the first post i have read where i can feel her, and the truth of how she was, ans what satrted to happen to me.
“It was all manufactured as a fear base for my benefit. And he was calmly knowingly torturing me mentally with these things.”
yup. every word was manufactured – all the ‘characters’ – the family and friends, the illnesses, the surgeries, the mental breakdowns, the suicide attempts, the incest with the father, the sister, the old girlfriend, finding out about having a son on the eve of life threatening surgery, the going blind. the dying. everything that keep me on 24/7 alert and constantly hyper vigilant………done to create bonds and fear, to torture me and others, mentally and emotionally.
on purpose.
anitasee – FIGHT!
ty and bless you.
one step
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 2:29am
Renewedhope says:
One Step you make perfect sense all the time!
“The imperturbable aspect of the P/S/N/’s can, when done well, really resemble stoicism, strength, cool, unflappable…and I think that they get a huge amount of mileage from that…”
True again!
My ex S woman can sleep like a baby all of the time. Although she needs Ambien and she sleep walks and night binges on food! The big cow is probably big as a house right now. But she is so comfortable living her existence while almost ruining mine 3 different times in my life. It’s business as usual with these clowns. Nothing bothers them. But I look at this imperturbable aspect as part of the cycle they go through. it’s what makes them go into the Bored part of their cycle I think. When said S woman gets this way I can almost see her hovering over a bug and playing with it until she loses interests, then flicks the thing across the room and goes about her merry way. That Bug is me of course. And every other single person who was in my role in her life.
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 7:21am
one_step_at_a_time says:
renewedhope –
it’s really painful, isn’t it.
it’s like a time of inoculation – wherein we badmouth the hot burner, so that we get-it-through-our-thick-skulls-not-to-touch-it-again.
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 8:03am
anitasee says:
Right on one step et all, And perhaps one of the most frustrating displays of imperturbability, is when they are completely flat, emotionless, and impenetrable, when confronted with an absolute bold faced lie, or a huge and obvious failure on their part.
When they refuse even a glimmer of remorse or contrition. Makes you crazy. And in time, if you keep harping on it, you do look like the crazy one. They have :let it go” they like to “think positive” they like to “move forward” etc etc.
My first big crack in the fairy tail (after having ignored countless little fissures) was a major betrayal that I won;t go into- suffice it to say it involved moving the family from our entire support base when my kids were young. Took me years to finally find out the move was not because of whatever reason he had pushed, but to flee a huge debt.
Well the betrayal and rage I felt at having been manipulated like that, of him usurping my rights to be part of the decision based on an honest account of the situation etc. was almost unbearable. I desperately wanted to leave, but of course he had me convinced we were “broke”, my kids were still in high school etc etc. So I dragged him to therapy. Where he was also unflappable.
And sure enough , two different therapists suggested I “move on” forgive and forget etc etc. Stop dwelling in the past, that is over now.? OVER? You totally disrespect me and lie to me for TEN YEARS on thousands of occasions to keep up the lie??? and I should move on?
In the hands of a good spath, therapists too can be dangerous. The one that I really liked saw me first, then agreed to see us both ( at my stupid request) then HE decided he needed to see her. Clever way to steal my shrink, and I believe TOTALLY unethical on her part. He dropped her within weeks, but of course she was no longer available for me. It boggles the mind that they actually think this stuff strough just to weaken us. Blech….
Anyhow, it took me eight more years to get out, and still I had to walk away with nothing.
Another great article in in the LF archives is about the Spath and their game of cat and mouse. Toying with their victim. Sounds like we have all been there.
Peace to all,
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 9:01am
Cat says:
Dear Ox,
You hit on something that really resonated with me when you brought up the fact that yes, they DO tell the truth only to get PITY. It’s an interesting phenomenon to watch. My ex would do that and act as though the world should feel SOOOO sorry for him because after all, he has a drub problem and his youth was lousy and so and so on…. It had me grinding my teeth at times because I could see so clearly through this and KNOW he was just doing this to manipulate family members and friends. Underneath it all, he was still just as evil as evil can be. I’m glad you pointed this out because for me, it was such a trigger. I wanted to bring out the bat and doing some serious damage. Today, of course, he’s not around, but seeing and knowing these things ahead of time is a good way of heading off the garbage before it gets to me, recognizing another red flag. Thanks!
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 10:04am
lostingrief says:
anitasee…
i hear you loud and clear. i couldn’t just walk away either. after 20+ years, i wanted REVENGE! and when i finally had the choice of throwing him out or … literally … dying, i chose my life. you can never ‘win’ with a spath.
and 18 months NC later, i am sometimes still so incredibly sad that i was used and spit out, that none of the glorious feelings of connectedness were real, that he lived and total lie (and by association) i too lived a lie, that i was left broken, worn to a thread, and penniless when i thought my hard work, love and generosity would pull us through.
i was just a ‘practical joke’ that he ‘pulled off.’
how touching.
i will never forgive nor forget. i hope he burns alive … slowly. fitting for a demonic creature.
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 11:56am
OxDrover says:
Dear Cat and Robxy,
Glad my little comment resonated with you. Yes, they will give us the “cold shoulder” to punish us and it can go so far as being NC with us, but they are NOT done with us, just “punishing” us. It is part of the game with many of them although there are the con-people who WILL “move on” and not turn up for months or years or ever, but it is just another part of their game.
My egg donor used to do this “not speaking to you” deal for months, to punish me, and eventually we would “pretend none of this happened” and go back to being “best friends” but now, the shoe is on the other foot and it is not part of a “game” on my part, I do NOT “miss” the games, and I realize what is going on, what has always gone on, and it is all about CONTROL—her controlling me or punishing me if I don’t do what and how she wants. Of course, her POWER over me is gone and that is frustrating to her so now she has a “cause” and that is protecting my P-son from his “mean mommie” who will fight to keep him in prison. Make sure that he has money now and after she dies, so he won’t be broke when (if) he gets out of prison. She has a CAUSE and I am the “bad guy.”
The bottom line with all dysfunctional and psychopathic relationships is all about CONTROL and playing their games. Pity is one “card” that they use to trump good sense, and my egg donor is soooo good at this one, but we have to keep our focus and realize what is going on. It is difficult for me to NOT see those I love through rose colored glasses, I have played the games so long and trivalized their bad behavior and enabled them for so long that it seems “natural” and “normal” and so keeping on a HEALTHY footing is difficult and is a CONTINUING TASK. I’ve about come to the conclusion that it will be a FIGHT for the rest of my life to maintain healthy relationships. A fight to distinguish being a friend from being a patsy, to distinguish between giving legitimate help or sharing and being an enabler.
Over the past six weeks, I have had to do some serious thinking about not only my son C, but about myself—and the thinking about myself and MY attitudes and actions, my OWN poor choices, my own fantasies, etc. and I realize I can’t change anyone else, no matter how much I love them, or trivalize what choices they have made, ALL OVER AGAIN. It is like I can do it with Person A, but have to start from scratch on Person B, C, D, E etc. I feel like an ox walking in circles around a mill; grinding, grinding, with never an end in sight, just more round and round until I drop from exhaustion or old age. When will I finally stop having to relearn the same lesson?
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 12:02pm
slimone says:
I feel this article, and many of the comments posted, will aid me in my conviction to protect myself. Because it clarifies that these kinds of people are void of any ability to NOT reject, and will always hold ALL others’ in contempt.
It is, in the truest sense, NOT personal. There actually is no rejection, because there is no ability on their part to SEE who and what we are. No connection whatsoever. The stupidity they subscribe to us is all a mental and emotional malfunction that has nothing at all to do with anything other than what is stewing inside them.
They do not reject ‘us’. They reject. Period.
Their inperturbability is NOT a direct reflection of how insignificant each of us are. It has nothing to do with us.
Our personal strengths and weaknesses had no bearing on their pattern of relating. And no one else’s will either. That is freeing for me to really let sink in.
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 8:17pm
slimone says:
Oxy,
I hear your exhaustion in that last paragraph, and I send you love and support as you continue to learn your way. You have had SO much to handle in this lifetime, and you do it, at least from where I sit in cyberspace, with so much determination and authenticity. I hope my love and respect will buoy you just a bit.
Slim
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Saturday, 6 February 2010 @ 8:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Slim,
THANK YOU so very much. You can’t know just how much your best wishes mean to me. Yes, it is fatigue and exhaustion, and sometimes it feels overpowering, like it will never end, and yet,, I AM so blessed and I KNOW that, but when I do feel down or “inadequate” or “ashamed,” I feel bad about feeling that way! LOL Catch 22! I DO have friends, GOOD friends, and my son D, and I AM LEARNING and though it is all slower than I wish it was, I AM making progress on the parole hearing documents and presentation, so it will come together. My son D and I are also coming up with a “fall back” plan in case my P son does get out (we should have 6 months or more warning) so “win, lose or draw” D and I WILL be OK no matter what happens. I am just tired of waiting for the other shoe to fall so we can make concrete plans–but heck, who knows what “tomorrow brings” in reality…I just have to trust that God will take care of what I can’t. Work like it all depends on me, and pray like it all depends on God. (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 12:29am
quest says:
one of the missions of a psychopath , I believe, is to shut their victim down mentally and emotionally as in so that the person can no longer think for themselves . They have many methods of doing this and one of them is to attack the victims logical thinking processes . This explains all the non stop chatter that tends not to make sense especially if you are having an argument with them . By saying things that do not really make sense causes the logical mind to shut down . These conversations have a way of making a kind of sense at the moment but when looking at the big picture one soon realises that it was all nonsense . The big thing is to realise that everything that the psychopath does or says is done for a reason and on purpose . Just as there are smart and stupid normal people there are also smart and stupid psychopaths . If you are unfortunate enough to run into a smart one any normal person is going to be in big trouble . The female psychopath that I was with had what seemed like a photographic memory for past conversations . She could repeat word for word things that I had said 3 or 4 weeks ago .What had me totally confused was that she would say I had said other things that I had not said . Kind of like she would acuse me of saying something that I was sure I did not say , then she would appear to back it up by repeating something that I did say . ” yeh you remember when we were discussing such and such ” which was true then she would tell me that at the same time I had said something that I was sure I did not say . At the time she also accused me of going senile and for a while I thought I was . Her ability to twist any argument arround so that it appeared to be my fault was absolutely uncanny . I now have a saying that I tell people when I suspect they may be dealing with a psychopath . If it does not make sense it is probably nonsense and if its nonsense then you are probably dealing with a psychopath . It is amazing how they can make totall nonsense sound almost logical . Ones best defense is to at least be aware that most of what is being said is rubbish . If one fails to realise this then you are in trouble . When talking to a suspected psychopath one must listen very carefully to make sure that the conversation is at least logical . If it is not be on guard or run .
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 5:05am
Sarah999 says:
It occurred to me when reading Dr. Steves great article . . that the way the sociopath treats us . . i.e., “not taking us seriously” . . is actually “projective identification” . . HIM (the N/S/P) showing US, how to treat HIM. WE SHOULD “NOT” TAKE HIM SERIOUSLY!
We should have all the same thoughts regarding HIM (the N/S/P), that HE has of US.
The N/S/P has actually provided US with a road map of how to think of (and treat) him.
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 10:48am
slimone says:
Sarah999, Yes! exactly. They are showingt us their unconscious relationship they have with themselves, through their treatment of us. It is all their own internal mess that they project onto us, and has nothing to do with us. We are ‘merely’ watching their relationship to themselves, that they cannot bring into their conscious awareness. WEIRD!
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 11:50am
slimone says:
Oxy,
I so get what you are saying about feeling bad for feeling bad. Oh, we humans can be incredibly convoluted. Keep leaning on those friends and D, and I will keep the fire burning that P is kept where he belongs, behind bars.
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 11:54am
OxDrover says:
Quest,
Just as a magician “distracts” the audience away from what he is really doing, so does the psychopath. AND just as it works with the audience looking at the magician’s right hand, when the REAL things are going on with the left hand, it almost DOES appear to be “magic” By distracting the victim with the “word salad” and “projection” they turn the conversation away from what REALLY happened, and put the victim at the disadvantage of trying to make sense out of the chaotic “cover” they are weaving.l
Even though we KNOW the magician is distracting us while he actually does his tricks, and we know it is a trick, a good magician is good enough that we can never see what he is actually DOING. A good psychopath can do the same thing, but we are not as forewarned that the “show” is NOT real as we are when we buy a ticket to see the magician. We admire the magician for fooling us, but we have a harder time in seeing that we ARE being fooled by the psychopath.
It is difficult to accept that we are being fooled when we WANT to believe in the “magic” of their love, their loyalty, etc. but we need to learn and LISTEN TO that small inner voice that says “something is not what it appears to be here.”
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 12:15pm
libelle says:
Dear Oxy! I hear you are having a very difficult, exhausting time right now, and maybe it is that you are too harsh on yourself? Are you examining yourself as you are examining everybody else and not trusting yourself unconditionally?? Kind of backing off from yourself as you do not deserve the comfort zone? ARE YOU TRYING TO CONTROL YOURSELF and punishing yourself with bad feelings, trying going NC with yourself when you are not succeeding? Kind of Auto-P-ing yourself? (and maybe I am just projecting all this onto you, as I also feel often this kind of “get over with it old bat”! I can SO relate!)
No matter, try , fail. Try again, fail again. Fail better. (Samuel Beckett; one of my favourites; takes lots of pressure from myself)
Yes, the X/S/N/P try to do magic and tell a slightly different kind of THEIR truth to make one look stupid. But I can tell you, that magic wears off with age too, as more and more people know them.
I was yesterday with my father at a funeral of a cousin, and as she died from Alzheimer’s, my father told the family that we had also had him tested for Alzheimers. An uncle asked “Why?” I said that he started doing dangerous things. Father then said Well they are afraid I am playing with the family money (THAT WAS THE TRUTH!! I was kind of shocked by his guts to tell this, he even started it! By now all his money has gone, and they live from a very meager pension. He lost millions).
The uncle (ex-husband of my father’s sister) then said: “well if that is the reason you should have had him tested for that by the age of 30. I always thought of him as doing dangerous things”, in a very dry matter-of-fact voice. And conversation went on that my father has his brains together, and then my uncle said: “well so you can be hold accountable for your deeds. So watch out!”
And then they went to another topic. No big deal. Imperturbable. No shame, no nothing. (I am sure father wanted me to feel bad about the tests, that proved again that he was just very bright and above us stupids!)
We can stop feeling responsible or ashamed, they shoot in their own feet so to say, and I surely won’t feel anymore inadequate. I had done that for ages, and so have you, dear Oxy, so we can live off the dividend of our fair share.
And please start liking yourself, won’t you, please? You must not feel inadequate (consider the comparator!) You are THE incomparable, unique, wonderful YOU. ((((HUGS))))
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 4:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear sweet Libelle,
((((Hugs))))) Thank you so much! Yes, I am and always have been much more exacting and expecting more of myself than I ever would of someone else! That has been one of my biggest downfalls I think. Since I am never perfect, then I must not be very good at all because if I was good, I would not be so “stoopid!”
I think I should be “smarter” and more able to generalize about the “red flags” and yet I find myself doing the same thing with others that I did with my egg donor and with my P-son, trying to think the BEST about them, and excusing their bad choices, bad behavior, etc. as being influenced by someone else, or some other reason and feeling like I have to fix them or “pretend it didn’t happen” when there is a CLEAR pattern in their past behavior that I have IGNORED or covered up. WHEN AM I GOING TO LEARN THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL? LOL
I know, baby steps, one day at a time, one inch at a time, it didn’t get this way over night and I won’t learn it all over night either or put it iinto practice without some grief at the “losses” I preceive when I set boundaries that others do not respect.
I set a boundary with my egg donor—one more lie and NC, I set a boundary with my P-son, NC, and lately I have set the boundary of NO LIES and my son C VIOLATED THAT boundary and it HURT that he would violate that boundary.
But ANY time you set a boundary, if you are prepared to ENFORCE that boundary, you must be willing to LET GO OF THE RELATIONSHIP IF THE BOUNDARY IS VIOLATED.
Just like my late husband knew that if he ever cheated on me, our relationship would have been over, forever. He knew that and as far as I know, he never violated that boundary, but if he HAD violated that boundary and I had found out, I would have been DEVESTATED, but I would have enforced it because I would have felt betrayed, I would have HURT, cried, grieved, pounded myself on the head, but I would have ENFORCED the boundary. He KNEW the boundary, so knew that if he chose to violate it what the consequences would be.
My son C knew what the consequences of being found out LYING to me were. Yet I only had two choices. Either let him lie to me and “pretend it didn’t happen” or enforce the boundary no matter how much it hurt. It is the SAME two choices any of us have when we set a boundary.
Whether or not the boundary is “reasonable” or not is for EACH of us to decide. Maybe some people would say that a ONE lie boundary is “unreasonable” but to me, in my situation with my son, and him knowing that I cannot tolerate lies, and in fact, he NC’D MY EGG DONOR BECAUSE SHE LIED TO HIM, yet, he some how thought it was OK to lie to me? I don’t think so. Sure, it threw me for a loop because I only saw one little hint of a red flag before it started up the mast and I knew for sure it was a lie.
Yep, it hurt. Yep it was disappointing, but yep, I DID THE RIGHT THING by enforcing the boundary.
Just like with an infection in the flesh, boundaries sometimes require SURGERY to get the infected material out of our systems, and the surgical wound is painful and takes a while to heal, but we can’t go on with the infection in our bodies/minds without it making us sicker.
Yea, it is tough sometimes, but I am working on taking care of me, and while I may be “sore” and in some “pain” both physically and emotionally, by getting the “infected material” out of my mind/body and stop dealing with people who are not “good for ” me, no matter WHO they are in the end, I will be better off than trying to deal with the “sickness” of everyone else. It is like a quarentine I think, keeping us healthy by keeping us away from people who “infect” us with pain.
You are one of my heroes, Libelle, thank you so much for the uplifting post. (((hugs)))) and God bless.
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 5:30pm
JaneSmith says:
SisterSister,
Just read your post way, way up there and it resonated with me.
I think I understand the direction you’re coming from. You’re a warrior, a fighter. You’ve probably been one your entire life and now you’re stopping dead in your tracks, due to over exposure to psychos, weirdos, and cry babies for many years and plain o’ fatigue.
Yep, I believe you’re just sick and tired and tired and sick of all the bullcrap. I mean, who wouldn’t be? Dealing with horrible humanoids or even whiny, complaining adult-children day in and day out for years has worn you out, sweetie!
Fighting the good fight is one thing. Fighting for justice and fairness. But all those petty, retarded, waste of energy battles with vampires can tire out Hercules, no doubt.
Maybe the thoughts you expressed regarding your life long experiences is helping you with priorities. And with how much you are now willing to tolerate or not tolerate.
Maybe you’ve learned just where to draw the line when engaging with certain people if they act out, act rudely, inappropriately, foolish, cruel, whatever behavior creeps you out.
I’m just thinking and sharing out loud with you as I have been there, done that for too darn long and yeah, I’m pooped.
Remember, there’s going to always be cry babies and predators roaming the streets of our cities and towns. We just gotta learn how to weed them out for our own safety, sanity and welfare.
You’re doing a super job already!!
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 7:50pm
tami says:
Thanks to everyone for confirming that yes, sometimes sociopaths do tell the truth…or at least, their version of it. It makes sense that they would enjoy seeing their victim’s pain that comes with hearing difficult truths. Once again, this allows them to feel control over their victim and allows them to witness how they are capable of sometimes bringing us to our knees and our hurt being “all about them”. Very sick individuals! I can remember that my ex S/N/P presented himself to be the most sensitive man ever…cried over sad songs and movies. However, during times when he witnessed my own hurt and tears, he seemed numb to my feelings. I can recall a couple of times that I found myself crying in his presence without really knowing why…he never even bothered to ask me what was wrong.
Another thing that I’m curious about is if it is classic behavior for the S/N/P to tell us that WE are no longer the person they fell in love with…constantly suggesting that we had changed in some way? I’m not sure if they have a need to feel the constant newness and excitement that comes with a new relationship which I have always considered to be mostly infatuation, or if they’re telling us that we have changed is a tactic they use to control us and mold us into who they want us to be to suit their own needs. Do any of you have any experience with hearing that you had changed, or that you are no longer the same person they fell in love with, as well as how they long to have that person back? And, you honestly did not have a clue as to what changes they were referencing?
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 3:43am
robxsykobabe says:
Hi Tami:
YES…YES…and YES! This DOES seem to be a theme with these disgusting people who call themselves humans-at least from my own experience.
My ex and I dated for 3.5 years and at about the 6 month marker, he began ‘complaining’ about me ‘changing’. What he meant by this was that I no longer threw him up against the wall when he walked into my house, ripped his clothes off, did you-know-what three times a day, and gooed and gaaaed over him incessantly.
In my RATIONAL attempt at explaining to him how ‘relationships’ work and progress over time, he denied any part of the reality of what was happening-we were bonding and getting closer…moving out of the infatuation stage into the bonding stage of love. In his distorted mind though, he believed we should ALWAYS have that passion…meaning EVERY TIME he came over, our encounter should be that intense, with that much sex, that much desire and that much superficial interaction.
This was an ongoing battle we fought as he CONTINUALLY searched for those ‘all consuming sparks’…and continually was disappointed in me for not ‘wanting’ him or ‘desiring’ him like I did when we first met. To type that even sounds idiotic…
He wasnt ABLE to attach himself to me emotionally which is where the disconnect came in. He searched and searched for that physical attraction that goes hand and hand with infacuation…mistaking it for love-or should I say MASKING it as love…and when we moved into the more advanced stages of a REAL relationship, he wasn’t able to move laterally-thus, assuming I CHANGED because I acted ‘differently’ towards him…
…yeah, ya asshole! I WAS IN A RELATIONSHIP THAT I THOUGHT WAS BUILT ON RESPECT, MATURITY, AND TRUST…while he was in a 16 years old relationship that he thought was based on sex and being ‘wanted’.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 8:36am
learnthelesson says:
To this day I struggle with a few things about what happened way back when with my ex.
I came to the conclusion that YES – I DID CHANGE – in a way that was not to his liking. Why? Because perhaps I finally had the courage to speak up and say ” Hey babe where were you all day today? Your phone was off? Off course his answer would then be – my battery died….and the lies would go on from there… but the “change” they refer to is that it was likely in the very early stages we are on our best/sweetest/all accepting behavior (I LEARNED THAT NEEDED TO STOP IN MY FUTURE RELATIONSHIPS) but yes when I look back there were things he did, or didnt do, or stuff that didnt sit well or match up 100percent – and I didnt rock the boat – so he was free-riding, sailing away the first few months – doing his thing – and getting my BEST – I was in love – I was happy to see him – happy when we got together — loved being with him and made him feel so loved — you betcha I changed when the novelty wore off — and the lustdust settled — I started getting real — seeing the reality — and questioning much more. I was putting a kink in his chain by calling him out on the inconsistencies, the no-shows, the lies, the oddities. I either stay the same as I was in the beginning and keep my mouth closed or I change and speak up and protect myself.
So what I took from that experience was ” FROM THE BEGINNING OF A NEW RELATIONSHIP — LOOK FOR THE RED FLAGS — LOOK AT THE REALITY OF HOW HE IS/WHAT HE DOES – ACTIONS VS. WORDS — INSTEAD OF OVERLOOKING THEM. AND DONT BEGIN THE RELATIONSHIP SEXUALLY FIRST — PERHAPS HALF THE S WILL DISAPPEAR IF THEY REALIZE THIS IS GOING TO BE A RELATIONSHIP BUILT ON TRUST AND HONESTY AND OPENNESS AND LOVE AND HAVING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THINGS THEY DO– AND THEN DEVELOP AND GROW INTO A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP — THEY WILL BE OUT THE DOOR SO FAST!!!
This is one of those areas where I hold myself a bit responsible for not being the real me in the beginning of the relationship. I thought well its the beginning and I really dont know him well enough to ask this or that or why this (BS!!!!!) See he didnt REALLY change his ways — he just became more comfortable in doing the secretative deceitful things he had been doing since saying hello to me — I just eventually spoke up about it/questioned it and so it looked liked I changed!!!! If something is bothering you about him in the beginning imagine it will never go away and only get worse and get out!
There was a strong physical attraction. I let that take precedent in the beginning over the other more important and valuable aspects of a relationship – respect, truth, trust, openness maturity – REALNESS.
This is one area where I am unfortunately willing to say what was part my responsibility in protecting myself — I didnt quite do it right out of the gate. I changed…I did! And I changed for the better – and he definitely did NOT like that!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 10:44am
tami says:
robxsykobabe and learn the lesson: YES! Both of you described EXACTLY what I’m referring to. I have to wonder if others have had the SAME experience, as well. I got SO sick of hearing how I had “changed”. And, another thing, mine expected me to be in the same mood “for him” ALL the time. All bubbly and happy. Well, we all have bad days at work or find ourselves concerned with other things sometimes. There was NO way I could be in the SAME consistent mood all the time. He interpreted every single little thing as a threat. I thought he was just an extremely insecure person. My own ignorance!!!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 11:11am
OxDrover says:
Tami,
I saw a news story the other day about a guy who has just invented a “talking sex doll” and it will respond to voice recognition and say whatever you want and always be ready for sex, even the skin is “warm” as there is heated air blown under the latex! ROTFLMAO and this thing will sell for $7000+ and is the newest gadget! LOL
That is what the P wants us to be—a talking sex toy with no more expectations than that DOLL has for a “relationship”—always ready for THEM and them alone, saying or doing exactly what they want. LOL
That is one reason I think that they have serial “relationships” because they have to have that “new” feeling which is the closest thing they can get to “love” or excitement in a sexual relationship. I actually think they know we get SOMETHING out of sex that they don’t (like bonding) but since they can’t feel it, they keep expecting the NEXT partner to give it to them, so go on forever seekiing the elusive “feelings” that we get that they can’t.
I think the whole thing with the doll is a HOOT! the perfect Christmas gift for your Psychopathic friends. The closest they will ever have to the “perfect partner.”
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 2:01pm
learnthelesson says:
Just a funny side note about this — for my brothers 30th birthday — at his surprise party his college friends came and as a prank they wrapped up as their gift a blow up sex doll — he was MORTIFIED — his boss and coworkers were there — and we all felt while inappropriate – it was a typlcal college group prank -years later!! Well he kind of tossed it under the table and went on to the next gift. Fast forward to end of night, the doll is deflated, gifts are being put in cars to take back to his house — and the deflated doll is left in my trunk. Got home – shoved the dern thing in coat closet and a few years later was rummaging around the closet at Halloween looking for something to make look like a ghost like a big coat or who knows what… well I found this deflated “body” and covered it with a sheet – tied a scarf around the neck and got marker to make eyes nose mouth on sheet covering her head– hung it from the tree — when I let the kids see the final production -they thought it was the most real looking ghost- the shape everything! It was brilliant — SO I THOUGHT!
Several hours later wind kicked up and there “she” was naked in all her glory with all her body details emphasized on her flying around my tree with the sheet in the air!!!!! I just didnt see that coming – I was so excited not to have to stuff a scarecrow or do anything but toss a sheet over this big blow up doll and be done!!!!! We still laugh about it to this day!!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 4:08pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
LTL – well, you kinky little thing you!
LOL!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 4:55pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
ROTFLMAO!!!!!! Choke, snort, squeek, choke!!!! I have such a vivid imagination!!! WOW! I think I would have moved to Alaska and taken an assumed name after that happened! You are a gutsy woman to not leave town on that note! LOL
I sure hope you LEARNED THE LESSON from that one!!! LOL Thanks for the laugh, I sure needed one!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 5:02pm
Aeylah says:
LTL:
I laughed so hard…what a great story about the blow up doll…I think that is the epitomy of what all NS’s want us to be….just a blow up doll you can dress up, cover up, make up and let it blow in the wind which ever way it goes with all it’s glory out in the open no brains, no mouth to speak.
I have been through all the crazy stuff and I have to say that after 3 1/2 years and newly with No Contact after 2.5 weeks I think I finally get it! it’s all about me, and all about the changes I am making in NOT ACCEPTING ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR ANY MORE!
Peace and healing thoughts to all …..blowing in the wind of freedom,
Aeylah
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 6:40pm
JaneSmith says:
LTL,
Haha…truly hilarious story! You being so cutely smug in your practicality and it backfires!
Seems you utililized a little foresight and instead of just throwing the silly thing in the garbage maybe thought…”hey, this thing might come in handy some day. What if I run out of plastic? hm, good to know”
Love ya!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 7:00pm
learnthelesson says:
Glad you all enjoyed the laugh! I havent told that one is the longest time! I think I was even nervous to toss it in the trash can incase the trash men found it – so into the bottom of the coat closet it went! Thankfully my neighbor -who brought it to my attention that the ghost was “exposed” -( can you imagine that conversation at the front door)… had known me for years and I could just tell her the whole story in its entirety as she helped me take “her” down. And she begged me to keep it hanging til her husband got home – we laughed for weeks and weeks – but I seriously LEARNED THAT LESSON! I ended up putting it in the trash (yes deflated of course
– tripple wrapped in trash bags. Only me!!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 7:38pm
learnthelesson says:
Yes Aeylah -
It is about not accepting abusive behavior and realizing you are a valuable person and deserve to be in a good healthy relationship. Ive learned in order to accomplish that I needed to grow and learn some more about myself and about personality disorders and how to recognize them and simply steer clear of people who have no regard for honesty, respect, trust, love no matter how attractive and fun they may appear to be. It gets easier once you realize what healthy situations/relationships really are.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 7:44pm
jelltogether says:
This is so dead on. My spath believes that he can lie his way out of anything and that everyone should believe him, especially when he caught dead on busted. He then twists it that you are the person who is wrong for not believing him, you have “hurt” him by not believing and he then justifies himself and his hurtful behavior. Add to that an alcohol problem and you have a winning combo for a get out of jail free card in his mind. The alcohol makes him feel strong and powerful no matter how weak he really is in life.It also gives him an excuse to say, but I was drunk…. As for sex, I too believe that he has to conquer hew horizons because when you want any real intimacy from him, he can’t handle it. He gets tired of people, he wants that attention from women because it makes him feel good and powerful. He is charming and very sexual, in the beginning, but as time goes on he seems starts to resent that you want anything physical from him. It has to be on his terms. When he sees that you want real commitment,he moves on to flirting with other women, then ultimately he will have sex with them. Then some form of guilt begins and he starts tearing apart your self esteem, becomes non communicative, disappearing and then he has to get rid of you because the other woman is hooked into him. You become the problem standing in the way of his new goal. I put up with this for years, so did his other wife. I see the game but can’t stand the pain.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 8:43pm
Aeylah says:
Jeltogether,
“He then twists it that you are the person who is wrong for not believing him, you have “hurt” him by not believing and he then justifies himself and his hurtful behavior.”
This is classic PROJECTION. He is projecting his thoughts and feelings about himself onto you. Also called GASS LIGHTING…making you the crazy one. Don’t buy it. It’s all in the way a twisted disordered person turns a bad behavour around.
Alcohol will only cloud his judgement more.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 8:53pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Hi all, I know you were missing those thousand-word posts, but I sprained my hand last week Probably writing those things, and today is my first day really typing again.
This thread is amazing. There is so much good writing here, I’ve been cutting and saving paragraphs from all over the place. The first was Steve’s. Damn! What a great article. It may be my favorite of all them.
This is my favorite bit, though it was hard to pick:
“When you don’t take others seriously; when, on some level, others are a joke to you; when a malignant contempt pervades your view of others, then you can have your way with them, you can use them for whatever purposes suit your immediate agenda. Moreover, you can cause them pain and outrage as you seek your own ends unburdened by normal feelings of responsibility, accountability and guilt, because you don’t just don’t take them seriously.”
Oh, do I remember what it was like to be on the other side of that! His distant and reluctant attention as I imploded into some emotional expression of weakness or neediness. It was all so taxing. He wouldn’t have bothered paying any attention at all, except he had to keep an eye on whether I was really getting to the breaking point. Wouldn’t want to kill the golden goose. If I looked like I might be getting ready to bolt, he’d turn on the charm, just enough to remind me what I might have if I did everything his way, if I was a “good girl.” (And yes, the little monster actually said that.)
But I know that he really got a kick out of watching me fall apart, as much as he sneered and ostentatiously ignored it. Because if he could make me cry, or wring my hands, or lock myself in the bathroom while I searched for some kind of pill that would make me feel better, then he was a powerful guy. He reminded me of a three-year-old with an Etch-a-Sketch, only I was the toy. And he was doing it right up to the last words I had with him. As he stood in my doorway, the light at his back, about to walk out of my life forever because I’d finally thrown him out, this distraught voice cried out, “But you said you loved me.”
“I did,” I said and slammed the door. And for two years, every time I looked out the front windows of my house, I was looking for his car to come up the driveway. He always came back, when he’d left me. But this time he didn’t come back, because I told him not to, and that he’d regret it if I even found him in the county.
He was afraid of me. It took me forever to figure this out. I remember on the very few occasions I did get anything like mad, he acted like I was coming after him with a knife. (Something like me stamping my foot, and saying, “This is making me really, really unhappy.” It’s embarrassing even to think about today.) Once, when we was leaving me to lose my house, when he could have stayed and helped me save it, I was sobbing and threw a shoe at him. He went into a terrified little dance, and said he should probably call the police.
I always thought it was just another one of his manipulative spiels. But later, I came to think he was really afraid I was going to crack and just kill him. He’d already driven people to breakdowns and I think there were a couple of suicides. But I was a little more substantial than his usual victim in terms of age and life equity. And I’m sure he figured that if the situation were reversed, he would have cracked and killed me long before.
I have spent so much time trying to get into the heads of these people. Not by trying to read his mind, but by finding what is like him in me, and then trying to wall everything else off. And you know, it’s almost impossible. (Not quite, because there have been a few moments in my life when I wanted something so badly, I didn’t care who got hurt, as long as I got it.) I can feel like that for a moment, but I can’t hold it, and I sure can’t imagine what it would be like to see the world that way for a lifetime. It’s like a desert, and I just can’t stay there too long without feeling like I’m getting heatstroke or dying of thirst for even the memory of connectedness.
Why would any of us want to be involved with someone like that? Talk about a vacation in hell…
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 9:12pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
LTL, you tell the best stories. Can you just imagine the conversations behind the neighbors’ windows. “George, grab your glasses and get over here. What do you see hanging from that tree?”
That’s so funny.
Oxy, I’m a little jealous. I’d like to go to a friend’s house for a couple of weeks and just cogitate. It sounds like you’re processing at full speed. I’m sorry you had to go through this, but, as you said, the worst things are sometimes the best things.
I was thinking that it might be easier on you if you didn’t fix on all the NCs being permanent. Except for your son in prison (who is just flat-out dangerous), the rest of them are being banished for bad behavior. They could always change their behavior. But it’s up to them. And meanwhile, they are not welcome inside your world.
That way you wouldn’t have to grieve over losing anyone forever. Just regard it as a kind of vacation from them until they stop acting like idiots.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 9:28pm
geminigirl says:
Hi, Oxy! Your doing great, Gal! take it slow, and dont put yourself down. We all love you and care about you! I think were often harder on ourselves than God is, and less forgiving of our faults! Youve had a HUGE amount of shit to work thru, more than most people would expect in one lifetime.Life is NOT fair, but I think in the end, the Spaths get divine justice served on them, and it says in the Bible,”It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of almighty God!” Theyll get theirs in the end, I have to believe it.
I wanted to let you know that the same thing has happened to me,ie, believeing peoples lies one time too many, ignoring red flags, etc.
My SIL,{who is still not divorced from my spath daughter after nearly 4 years,} I had painted asa perfect, loving SIL, a great Dad,{he now has FT custody of the 3 kids}, and I believed him when he said hed never deprive me from seeing the kids, etc.he was supposed to be renting a holiday cottage near us either at Xmas or N.Year, and I kept emailing him as to when hed be here on holiday with the kids. Kept stalling,i couldnt geta definite answer from him. Nevertheless, I went ahead, got all the kids gifts wrapped,bought in extra Xmas food, decorated the house,{partly for our new adult “kids too, as they were to spend Xmas day and Boxing day with us}.
By N.years eve, still hadnt had a peep out of him, so I went over to stay one night in a guest house near our Iranian kids new tiny rented flat. Came back next day, logged in to Kevs facebook. Lo and behold, he and the kids and the new girlfriend had been staying at the holiday cottage since before Xmas,and on N.Years eve, they were actually in the town of Gosford, ten minutes from our place, yet never once rang, came to see us, or even gave us a call to wish us a Happy New Year.{I got home on NYs day,morning, so we could still have seen them.} D. and I were so disappointed,and I emailed him to let him know we were disappointed and hurt . Havent heard from him since. He is also a liar, he told me that the kids mag{the one my daughter embezzled $62,000 from, and which he used to be the art director of, }owed him $120,000. The new director,{who told me about my daughters theft} said it was rubbish, they only owed him $5,000 and hed have it within 2 months.They are still trying to recover financially from her “money laundering ” scheme. I cant believe they let her off with $12,000!My SIL used to be a heavy pot smoker, and I think it leaves them with a “lackaday attitude to life.
Ive seen my G kids exctly twice since 8th Dec.,2008, which is when I last saw my spath daughter.I now know a} that hes a liar, and b] that hes totally unreliable.I do miss my G kids, but as i no longer see my spath daughter, and it looks as if my SIL cant be relied on to bring them over,God knows when, if ever, I will see them again. I am devastated.Love and {{HUGS}} Gem.XXXP i ended up posting all the presents to them, and still havent had as much as aThank you phone call from any of them, including the girlfriend. No manners ,and no class.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 9:51pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kathleen,
Yea, it is wonderful to have a dear dear friend whose house I ican go to to “unwind” and I feel very blessed!!!
As far as the NC being permanent or temporary, that really isn’t a factor with me–I don’t EXPECT anything to change in their attitudes—that EXPECTATION of change I think is what kept me in the fantasy world with my P-son iin prison. As it is, IF there is ever a demonstratable change in either my egg donor’s attitude (not likely!) or in my son C’s, it will take a very long time for me to ever establish enough trust to even want a relationship, much less have confidence in their attitude change, if that makes any sense.
Too many times there has been a reconciliation only to have it “fall apart” over and over and over, so, that being the case, I think it is easier to “cut the puppy dog’s tail off in ONE CUT” and get it over with, than to cut it off an INCH AT A TIME, the way I have been doing it all/most of my life.
I think in the end, I really don’t want a relationship with someone who has devalued and discarded me repeatedly, so I haven’t really lost anything except my own FANTASY world in which I thought that, I wanted to believe that, I was loved, cared for and respected. Anyone who is willing to not only use and abuse me, but to devalue me is not someone I really NEED IN MY LIFE.
Not everyone in our lives that we don’t have good relationships with are psychopathic. There are other things that go on in a relationship that cause it to “fail” or not be good for either or both parties.
I know the problems you are having with your son are not psychopathic ones, and neither are the ones I am having with C. However, C has obviously got some deep seated anger at me. Whether this is “justified” or not is beside the point. If they were justified by something I have done to him I am not sure what it is. Without knowing what HIS problem with me is I can’t work on improving the relationship. I know I wasn’t a perfect parent by any means, but at the same time, I don’t think I abused him, but sometimes children perceive that they are unvalued or misunderstood when the parent had no intention of doing that, but I’m not even sure my son knows what drives himself. Without some insight on his part about our relationship, about why he had D&D’d me, why he lies to me, I don’t see that we can work on a relationship together. I’m not even sure he actually wants a relationship with me.
Since he is not a psychopath I am not totally adverse to a future relationship, but I’ve set the boundaries about the lying, so unless he decides to stop, there isn’t any reason to hope that we can have a relationship that would in any way be satisfying to me. But since lying is not something that is done on a “every day” basis in someone who is not a P…how long do you have to go with no lies before you can trust some one not too start lying again? I think he went 2 1/2 years without lying to me, but when he felt the “need” to lie, he didn’t hesitate, in fact, planned it in advance, knowing that if I caught him it was NC. Set the “stage” with preparation, forethought and pre-planning on how to cover up.
Then, presented himself to his friends and even his boss as being abused by his nasty mother, “who tossed him Suddenly out on to the street homeless,” when in reality, I gave him a month to find another place to move (until I got back from Texas).
Plus, not only did it devestate me, but also his brother, D.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 10:23pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
We were posting at the same time!
I am sorry that your SIL is acting this way! I know it is disappointing to you. Maybe you can call and speak to the children or even arrange a holiday with them to someplace and maybe he would let them go with you.
I’m glad your adopted “kids” were there for you, though! I think that God gave me my adopted son D. to replace the P-son I “lost” so long ago. Just as Job had more children and recovered, so will I. So will you.
Yes, I believe in divine retrobution, and I don’t think I could go on if I didn’t.
I didn’t do a lot today, but did get the letters in order by date and will work on them some more tomorrow. We are snowed in, though still have electric power, but are prepared in case it goes out, with a generator and a gas stove (the central heat won’t run without electric) and have big barrels of water ready if we need it.
The snow is nasty, but it IS BEAUTIFUL, 6-8 inches of heavy wet snow and with the low temps tonight (teens) it will freeze into a solid cake of ice tonight! We just “hunker down” and don’t try to go anywhere until the roads are dry and clear but looks like bad weather most of the week. A great time to just relax and take it SLOW! (((hugs))))
Oh, I read Toi’s obit last night (thanks Matt for that reference) She was a sweetie! By reading her obit, though, you wouldn’t know that her “loving family” were what they were…I’m just glad that she DID HAVE some real friends and support here though. I know it was very important to her!
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 10:34pm
tami says:
Kathleen Hawk & Others: YES! Mine is afraid of me, too! I have no idea WHY…I am NOT a violent person and he knows that. His new wife seems to think that he is just “embarassed” by the way he treated me but I know better! I remember when I was married to him, if he even thought he glimpsed the sight of one of his exes, he’d run from her. He was paranoid! I thought he was just being downright silly at the time but I now realize why he was so afraid. He knows EXACTLY what he did to them and to me and it’s enough to make some people come unglued and want to physically harm him. Also, I’ve read that S/N/Ps are the biggest cowards ever!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:09am
tryingtoheal says:
Sarah999 you are just SO right, that is what they are teaching us, you certainly hit home there, I never looked at it like that! I had to pass mine, thank God the ex, twice in a week on the high street, UGH he made my skin crawl!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:10am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, your response to my idea makes a lot of sense. I think my position about keeping the door open (just mentally) to the possibility of people changing their behavior reflects my belief that most people can change. Not sociopaths, but people who do have some capacity for compassion and conscience.
I think I have a hard time cutting people out of my life, if I once cared about them. And this is a mental position the allows me to do the least damage to myself, while keeping them at a distance from me. But I’m probably just postponing the inevitable grief of facing the truth about their behavior, as it is, and letting go of any illusions about them or their place in my life.
But what you wrote is probably the stronger stand. You’re making this about you, your life and what you want or don’t want in it. You’re making very firm boundary statements. It causes you to suffer, but it’s also honest and moves you through the grief to clear decisions about what to do next. I admire you for it.
You mentioned my son. You’re right, it’s not a sociopathic situation, but he is so mentally ill that it almost makes no difference. The amount of energy it takes to deal with him and hold myself together is like a huge test of everything I learned in getting over the sociopath.
I do the best that I can. I work on staying true to myself. I give him a certain amount of attention, and it’s good attention. But dealing with him takes a lot of energy, and I have to give myself time to recoup. I can feel the drain on my emotional system and my life, and I have to make sure that I have the resources to also support myself and keep going.
Life brings us circumstances that force us to learn again. As you said in a previous post, sometimes we have to keep on learning the same thing over and over. (And God knows, I’ve had to learn that lesson you talk about a lot of times.) And sometimes it seems to be something new. I truly do not understand what God wants me to be learning from this one, except maybe endurance.
But if there is one thing that I believe, it is that things keep changing. Whatever this is, it will evolve over time. My life is changing and so is his. And sometimes we just have to wait it out.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:24am
Rosa says:
I have also seen that “fearfulness” from the abuser.
Do you guys think they are really afraid???
I think it’s a load of crap.
In fact, I think it is another form of projection.
They know that WE are the ones who should be afraid, but they ACT fearful in order to make US look like the abusers.
I have seen them shoplift merchandise from stores without blinking an eye.
I’ve seen them lie to the policeman’s face without an afterthought.
So, I don’t buy the “fearful” act…at all.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:32am
tami says:
Rosa…you know, the SAME thought occured to me right after I posted that my ex S claims that he is afraid of me. Yes, I think it’s all an act for their friends and especially their new victims. Once again, it keeps their victims focused on the belief that it is the former victims who are bad and not the S/N/P! They are a piece of work!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:51am
witsend says:
Rosa, Tami,
I totally agree with you Rosa…I think projection is a major thing that S/P/N s do to us to keep us off balance on a regular basis. And often times when someone is projecting their “stuff” back onto you , it is difficult to put your finger on while it is taking place.
Its not until later sometimes after you really THINK about what happened that you can have the “ah hah” moment.
Tami for what is worth, I think projection was also a part of what you brought up in your earlier post as well. About him telling you that you had changed…..The truth is that they change in a relationship dramatically. First the love bombing…Then the relationship from hell. WHO’s changed?
Its just another way to keep the finger pointed at you, the blame on you, and the conversation on what your doing wrong.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:07am
one_step_at_a_time says:
rosa and tami – mine cried almost every time i talked to her – well, it’s an important part of the act when you are fake ill and fake dying.
and was always talking about being prey and others being predators. uh huh.
one of the sock puppets actually called me a predator. yah, uh huh, right. wish i knew what i was dealing with at the time. (not just sociopath, but one person impersonating many)
she dupes a lot of people with this prey/ crying fragile person scenario. these days a lot of it is online. i’d like to cut her hands off. that would slow down the typing a bit.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:08am
Rosa says:
Yes, Tami, that’s exactly what’s going on.
Let’s not forget that it is fearLESSness that is one of the hallmark traits of a psychopath.
Page 55 of “Without Conscience” states, “For most of us, fear and apprehension are associated with a variety of unpleasant bodily sensations, such as sweating of the hands, a “pounding” heart, dry mouth, muscle tenseness or weakness, trembles, and “butterflies” in the stomach. Indeed, we often describe fear in terms of the bodily sensations that accompany them: “I was so terrified my heart leapt into my throat”;…..These bodily sensations do not form part of what psychopaths experience as fear. For them, fear – like most other emotions – is incomplete, shallow, largely cognitive in nature, and without the physiological turmoil or “coloring” that most of us find distinctly unpleasant and wish to avoid or reduce.”
Now that I think about it, it’s so ironic because psychopaths are known for their acting skills.
However, from what I have seen, the one time when their acting falls short is when they are trying to act afraid or fearful.
It’s just not authentic or believable.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:28am
one_step_at_a_time says:
hi witty – we posted right over each other! how are you today?
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:28am
witsend says:
One Step,
I am hanging in there. I am finding that all my PTS intense anxiety/fears and all that goes along with it are back. It is something that I have lived with for many years, since the suicide of my husband. But I “thought” that I had learned to co-exist or “manage” it to a degree that was acceptable in my daily life. I feel “stuck” in the cycle of it all.
I hope that you are doing well. Or at least better than when we spoke last
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 12:07pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Rosa and Tami, you’re probably right about the “appearance of fear” being used to control us. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not aware of the damage we can do to them.
What could possibly be more dangerous to a sociopath than someone who knows the truth about them? Who understands that they cannot love. Will not include anyone else’s wellbeing in their plans. Takes without giving. Lies and steals and betrays without compunction. And does whatever damage is necessary to get whatever they want.
Sociopaths perceive the world of people in terms of relative power. There are the “food people” who have less power, and on whom they can feed without concern for repercussions. And there are the people they have to suck up to, until they can climb over them to become more powerful. But all of this depends on their ability to move in the feeling world without being discovered as a predator.
Why do you think they work so hard to separate us from our own common sense? Or try to convince everyone else that we are crazy? All this devaluation has a purpose, to discredit anything we might think or say about them. So that we become powerless to impede them.
In Steve’s article above, he talked about their imperturbability when things are going well. He wrote: “In other words, the sociopath’s cocky faith in his powers of chicanery nicely captures his inflated grandiosity and sense of omnipotence. To put it even more basically, the sociopath thinks he is good, really good. And in inverse proportion to how smart he thinks he is, he thinks that you are just as stupid.”
But if it turns out that you are not that stupid, he feels a threat, and that imperturbability collapses. We get to observe a lot of acting out, whether it’s trying to convince us that we’re wrong and he’s really a nice guy, or trying to convince the rest of the world that we’re crazy and he’s really a nice guy.
To even recognize their fear, we have two problems. One of them is getting over the pain they caused us (and the reasons we were vulnerable to it, because we looked to them for love and acceptance), so that we can actually see their modus operandi as a lifelong pattern of behavior, and understand the dependencies in it — they can’t survive without victims. The other is figuring out whether we can warn other people about them, in the light of their concerted efforts to discredit us, and what we’re willing to risk to do that, because they will make it expensive.
In retrospect, I think one of the smartest things I did in dealing with my sociopath at the end was to tell him that he wasn’t going to like what happened, if I ever found him in my life, my county and my business area again. It’s also how I got him out of the cottage on my property, by telling him that things were going to get very uncomfortable for him, if he stayed. No details. Just cold-eyed commitment. I let his imagination fill in the blanks.
I did try to warn the next woman in his life, and later tried to help her several times. But she was afraid of me. Guess why. When I was struggling with my responsibility in this, my wonderful Buddhist friend said to me, “It’s dangerous to interfere with other people’s dreams.” And I interpreted that to me that we all find our own lessons in life, and she was choosing hers, as I did earlier with him. So I had to let it go and leave her to the future she was creating for herself.
But it doesn’t mean I don’t keep track of him. Not stalking. Not breaking NC in terms of contacting him. But watching to make sure I know where he is, and whether I need to take action. It’s not an obsessive concern, just some personal housekeeping.
Whether or not he knows that, he does know what I think of him. As far as I know, I’m the only woman in his past who grew through the relationship, and understands exactly what he is. And he has good reason to fear me. Not just because I will do whatever I have to do to keep him from harming me or anyone I care about. But because what I learned from him is not just about him, but about the whole group of them. Just as we all are doing. And I’m a teacher by nature, just as many of us are. What I’m doing with the aftermath of this relationship is making it harder for people like him to survive.
If we decide to become teachers, we face the challenge of how to talk about our experiences with people who are currently facing threats. How to support other people through getting free and holding onto themselves, in the face of a clever and determined predator.
From his perspective and the perspective of anyone like him, I fit into several categories. First, when they realize it, I’m not food anymore. But more than that, if I don’t buy into their false front, and I’m willing to actively sabotage their plans by telling the truth about what I see, I become a threat.
Believe me, sociopaths feel fear. They may not feel it in the things that we regard as high-risk activities. But their only means of survival is predation. They can’t do what we can do in terms of real collaboration, trust-based contracts, and long-term relationships. We can do everything they do, if we choose. But they can’t do anything we can do in terms of relationships. They can only pretend. And they have good reason to fear that our ability to network and share personal and feeling-based information can ruin a whole hunting ground for them.
If they didn’t think those techniques were so powerful, they wouldn’t make such use of them in their own attempts to discredit us. Fortunately, once we get our own emotional systems clear of pain, we realize that they’re not really very good at these things. Their selfishness and irresponsibility leaks through, especially for people who have eyes to see. The more and better we teach, the more people have those eyes.
As Donna keeps saying, information and education is the key here. And maybe as we heal through our personal stories, and come to see the threat as more systemic — a challenge that any feeling person will face one or more times in life — it will make it easier for us to share information in a way that other people won’t find so threatening.
And then, hopefully, it will turn out that they were afraid of the right thing. That we effectively can close them out with more and more of their future victims. Starting with us, and then moving on to the rest of the world.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 12:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kathy,
Having worked for quite a few years in physical rehabilitation for head injuries and severe spinal cord injuries, as well as in mental health, and with geri patients, I know about the stress imposed on the caregiver role.
When my step-fatheer was “down” with the cancer, I was the primary caretaker, but I recruited all the help I could get, from paid housekeepers, to hospice aids and nurses, the community fed our entire family for 9 weeks, etc. I know about caregiver “burn out” and it is an easy thing for those of us who have that “caregiver mentality” in any case. It is a good thing, but sometimes we put our selves so far on the BACK BURNER that none of our needs are met except maybe for air and water, and the rest all take a back seat.
I have seen parents and spouses totally undone trying to take care of a parapalegic son or daughter or spouse, and interestingly enough, in my years working with paras and quads, I never once saw a husband that took care of his wife if she was a quad, they, 100% of them, left the woman who would then end up in a nursing home. The wives tended to stay, especially if they were a long-term couple.
Parents of a child that was a quad tended to divorce unless they had enough money to hire some caregivers.
I met my best friend (the one I visited) when her son age 15 was rendered a quad in an accident. She and her husband both worked AND took care of their son without hired help. They were amazing. Plus, they treated him just like an ordinary teenager, not like “oh, my poor baby” and he grew up to be a great guy, who just happens to be in a wheel chair.
Fortunately, he got enough settlement for the accident he can have a hired caregiver part time and is living on his own now and married and doing wonderfully. At his high school graduation when he went to get his diploma in his WC 15,000 people stood up to cheer! He has almost completed college as well and can type 15 words a minute with a mouthstick and is as good with computers as anyone I know.
He goes places and does things, keeps himself healthy physically, which is NOT an easy thing, and in short, lives a good and active life! IT is important though, that the caregiver roles do not become the burden to ONE person when a person because of either physical or mental impairment requires a high level of care.
I think part of the worst part of the caregiver role for a person with mental impairment is the WORRY that comes with it. What happens to him when I am not around? What will happen to him when I am not here any longer? How will he be provided for financially?
When my P-son hit the “teenager from hell” stage but was still lving in my home, Those WORRIES about him “ruining” his life I think were the most hurtful thing I went through. Then when he did get arrested for his first felony as an adult, I sort of thought to myself,, “well, he can still over come this and have a good life” but of course, when he was arrested for the murder, I had a MAJOR MELT DOWN lasting three full months because I knew in my heart his life was beyond redeemable.
After he was convicted and I knew from his attorney that he WAS guilty though he denied, denied denied to me. I “agreed” to play the game of “let’s pretend you are not guilty” in order to keep up a relationship with him by letter and visits.
I’m not sure why I did this, I guess denial is “easier” at some times than to recognize the HORRIBLE TRUTH that my son IS A MONSTER capable of murder.
Eventually, we quit playing the “you didn’t do it” game and went to playing, the “well, you did kill her, but you are really sorry for doing it” game. He was playing the “I’ve found Jeezus and I’m gonna be a good boy when I get out of here, in the meantime, SEND MONEY.”
Sometimes though, I can literally hear in his voice his real feelings about things, though the words would be the opposite. AFter the fact, we told both him and his brother C about the Irrevokable Trust made to protect both mine and my husband’s and my parents’ estates and the farms from either of the boys being a “spend thrift” or their wives getting their clutches into any of it. C was married at that time to the P-DIL and we did not want her running through C’s inheritence or any woman that P-son would marry in the future so we set it up so that they could have the USE of the farm and any income from it, but NOT sell or mortgage it, and in the event they had children it woujld go to the children at their deaths. If no children, then to a charity orphanage near here.
When I told P-son about it during a visit, I could hear in his voice that this was NOT what he wanted to hear. Son C was not nearly as upset when I explained to him that none of us wanted the family farm that had been in the family for so long to go to his step-daughter or to his wife or her family upon his death, but that his wife would have a home here as long as she lived but not control of the land.
Son C has lived here on this farm quite a bit of his adult life, and does care about this land and the community. P-son was here some when he was a child, but most of his life has been lived away from this land and the only attachment he has is what he could get for selling it.
Typical of Ps, though, Son P feels that he is ENTITLED to everything the family has—one way or another—and somehow feels that HE IS THE LEADER of the family, and the most knowledgable of the family members in how it ought to run, that even though he has never lived successfully independently outside of prison in his adult life, in fact, never been out of prison a total of a year in his adult life, that HE IS AN EXPERT on how to manage money, how to manage his life, etc. and others as well. Talk about ARROGANCE! LOL
Somehow I “bought” into the “he is important to my life” even after he had been in prison for upwards of 10 years and I wrote him daily, long letters, telling him everything I was doing and thinking—which of course came to bite me in the butt big time!
I lived in this biG fantasy land of “my son is going to come home and live a good life” and the entire family will be happy he is home.” In spite of the truth that for the last 3 years he did live in our house he was the CENTER OF ATTENTION because he caused HAVOC AND CHAOS.
Even though he had no physical presence in my life, except for occasional visits to him in prison which required 8-16 hour drives, depending on which prison in texas he was housed, he was a BIG mental presence and I was his “caretaker” and I was responsible for seeing to his welfare by 1) sending money to him for extra things 2) making sure he got the medical care he needed and 3) that he was not treated illegally by the administration (and yes, they do violate the prisoners rights)
Even though he was 400-700 miles away, never the less I was a 24/7 caregiver to him, and at times I got burned out on the emotional, financial and time requirements to do that. The emotional investment was the most draining. The always waiting for something bad to happen to him, the worry that someone would hurt or kill him. Prison is NOT a “safe” environment, though if the administration knows that there are family members outside who will raise a stink if something illegal is done to a prisoner, they actually do get better treatment.
Shutting my P-son out of my life and my mind, and not worrying about what happens to him, truly NOT CARING, has released me to live a life of MY OWN. I gave up the fantasy that he was going to “reform” and by doing that, I gave up being his caregiver and all that entails in ENABLING.
When there is mental or physical illness in a person we love that is NOT something that they caused, we tend as family members to feel responsible for “taking care” of their needs, just as we did when they were babies, because they are NOT ABLE to adequately provide for themselves. The largest majority of people also do not have the financial resources necessary to pay other relief caregivers, even if such were available.
Sometimes insitutional care (like a nursing home) is the best available option, yet, never one that most people don’t feel guilty about using. In cases of even severe mental illness, the law says now that unless they are an IMMEDIATE danger to others or themselves they cannot be insitutionalized against their wills. MAny people living on the streets are mentally ill, and, frankly, living on the streets is in my opinion a DANGER to themselves if not too others, but the law doesn’t see it that way. I saw an interview with an official in NY talking about people freezing to death on the streets of NY every winter.
There are always situations in which we could give our energy to benefit others, from volunteering on up, but I think it behooves us to FIRST take care of our own needs, emotionally, physically, and financially, before we spend those things taking care of others and leaving ourselves bereft of the necessities of a healthy life.
There may come a time when my son C or even my egg donor will “see the light” and want a relationship with me, but the relationship will be on my terms within my boundaries, and they will have to prove to me that they understand how hurtful their behaviors have been to me, want to and make make amends and change their behavior and quit lying to me about it all….I really don’t see that happening, but, like The story of Joseph in the Bible, I won’t trust them until I see a decided change in attitude and behavior. We can forgive them (get the bitterness out of our hearts) but that doesn’t mean we TRUST them again not to repeat the past behavior.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 1:45pm
tami says:
Wow, Kathleen…you described EXACTLY what has happened with my ex S. I AM the only woman who figured out what he REALLY was and it took the good help of a therapist and you great people here at LF for me to fully comprehend it all. I, too, have tried to warn the next woman who is now married to him. I’m sure some of you remember Biddy, his new wife. He tells her that he is afraid of me and she thinks he’s silly. And, as I said earlier, he knows I am NOT a violent person. So, I suspect that he fears that someday I will HELP her to fully understand. I’ve already exposed him for what he is and it’s put him in the hot seat with her many times and as she as shared my warnings to her with others, they have agreed that I seem to have him nailed. I no longer contact Biddy but she writes me every day and has shared with me that she is experiencing a tremendous amount of depression and exhaustion due to his overwhelming neediness. I feel that she NOW sees what he is for herself but is afraid to go and afraid to stay. She seems to have some insecurity issues of her own due to her former marriage and now from her experience with my ex S. She’s now been in two marriages with disturbed individuals and the first began when she was 15. She went straight from one husband right to the next with no break for herself in between. I feel that she fears single life and has a difficult time letting go even when she knows she isn’t in a healthy marriage. She’ll come around in her own time…just as I did.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:24pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks for the supportive and informative letter, Oxy. It is hard, and I do worry about his future. But we both have hope that with the right diagnosis and treatment, things will be much better for him.
I can’t really talk about this here, because I don’t want to violate his privacy. But I wanted to say something about the stress I’m under, because I know it affects my writing. So if I sound more cranky or opinionated than usual, that’s why.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:46pm
learnthelesson says:
Kathy – I hope your wrist is feeling better… You – cranky???? Havent seen that…. Opinionated?? Hope you never stop sharing your opinions! Hang in there! Preparing for another storm here, hope NY isnt getting as much as we are suppose to! Hope you come across a peak of less stress soon. Hang in there!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 5:11pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kathleen,
Just in my life time, the treatment of mental illnesses that in the past were considered totally untreatable have come SO FAR, that many people can and do live very happy and productive lives.
My sperm donor’s sister, “went crazy” at about age 23-4, by that time she was a gifted plastic surgeon and had “not been crazy” before suddenly becoming “crazy”–she was either forceably locked up, for years in some sort of “home” and in her later years, lived in an apartment connected to her brother’s house. I have no idea really what drove her “crazy” but my grandfather, her father, thought it was her step mother’s treatment of her—but from the descriptions of her behavior and the age of onset, my guess is she was either bi-polar and/or schizophrenic, as she apparently was at least at times out of touch with realityy. There was really no adequate treatment for her at that time (onset about 1940) and fortunately she was from a family who could at least house her and see that she didn’t become a homeless person or locked in a state mental institution.
Finding a correct diagnosis and treatment even today can sometimes be a challenge, but not one that has to be a losing fight! I’m glad that your son has you for a mentor, and have every confidence that you and he working together will solve whatever problems he or you have together.
My son C I think is clinically depressed and I think that has lead to a great many of his decisions that I think are poor decisions, but because he denies that diagnosis and refuses to take any medication for it, there is no way I could help him. The old “you can lead a horse to water” situation.
Just as the pain of a broken leg will generally motivate a person to go to a physician, sometimes people have to be “uncomfortable” enough with whatever emotional pain they are having in order to seek help. I know that as long as I was somehow managing to “get on” even though I was very much in emotional pain, I stayed in denial for decades before I realized, hey, I need to DO something about this besides a “band aid.”
As a health care provider both in family practice and in mental health settings, people tend to be more in denial I think with emotional pain or unhappiness and seem to think “oh, if I just cheer up everything will be okay” while their world melts around their feet, but the same people would not ignore the “broken leg”—although these new adds they are running about strokes where the guy comes up with an ARROW sticking out of his chest and says “Oh, it’s nothing, it will be okay” (he is having a stroke) does sum up some of my patients who ignored some SERIOUS and painful symptoms for months or years, heck when I had the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, I did the same thing for about two months before seeking treatment, blaming my feeling so weak I could hardly stand up on “stress.” LOL so I am not poking sticks at others, because I’ve done the same thing myself.
I think though until WE are ready to accept treatment no one can motivate us to do so. I tried to motivate my son C to seek treatment, tried multiple times to convince him, but he wasn’t buying it—wouldn’t buy it, and as long as he is Satisfied with his situation, I can’t make him see a need to do anything about it. Just as if he were drinking alcohol or taking drugs, until HE SEES IT IS HURTING HIS LIFE and feels pain from it, he is not likely to see a need to get help or help himself. I’ve offered help in the past,, and he has taken it on short term basis repeatedly, but soon went back to the denial and the problems, and resented me for “interfeering” in his life, so no more interference in his life. NO more enabling him to “survive” the crashes without paying the full price for the bad decisions. He will have to climb out of the holes he digs for himself from now on. I do love him, but I am no longer looking at his decisions and his past choices quite so “tolerantly” or blaming all his problems on him letting others “influence” him negatiavely. He’s a big boy (actually a middle aged man now) so whatever happens to him depends entirely on HIS choices, HIS decisions, and not on me. I am no longer feeling responsible for his “self caused” suffering from his own decisions. Plus, by essentially NC now, I am not being freshly wounded by anything he says or does now.
Nothing has really “changed” with him, he is still who he is, but I HAVE CHANGED THE WAY I LOOK AT IT. Therefore the pain is LESS for me than it was when I felt like there was some “hope I could influence” him, when obviously there wasn’t that hope.
I think we can ACCEPT ANYTHING as reality, but it is in that part where we are still “bargaining with the Universe” and praying that somehow it will all “go away” and we won’t have to accept it….but once you get to where you can accept something and KNOW FOR SURE IT ISN’T GONNA CHANGE, then it may be hard, but we can accept it and go on from there.
I used to have a sign in my office, but I gave it away (wish I hadn’t) that said I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER SINCE I GAVE UP HOPE.
I used to laugh about that sign, but you know, it is true, that HOPE that we can change things when we can’t, keeps us hanging on and trying to “fix” things and people that can’t be fixed.
Hoping for the things that are POSSIBLE and working to make those things better, that is more productive—and knowing which things ARE possible and accepting those that aren’t.
Essentially the serenity prayer. I need to keep reminding myself of that. OVER AND OVER AND OVER. (((HUGS))))
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 5:54pm
JaneSmith says:
I’m still in the process of reading Dr. Peck’s “People of the Lie” and he writes that evil people live in a perpetual state of absolute terror.
I consider him a credible witness and he describes quite well the hidden anxieties these folks deal with on a daily basis, so, yeah, I do believe they feel fear. Totally. In ways that may be unfamiliar, foreign even for feeling, caring, conscientious people like us.
Think about it. Evil people, cluster Bs never experience real, pure joy, happiness and peace. They are on the constant make, completely enamoured with always seeking power over others, taking and taking and sucking the energy out of the people they predate upon.
As Kathleen wrote, they are always preoccupied with maintaining whatever mask of deception they have manufactured to seduce, manipulate and dominate their victims. They are hollow men and women. Nothing there of substance, meaning and value.
So, when the mask slips downwards and/or their current victim realizes the horrible monster exposed beneath all that flash and dazzle and decides to take necessary steps to rid herself/himself of such evil…well, that absolute terror that pervades their very essence strikes them and they must do all they can to preserve that mask of deceit and deception.
Supposedly, all sociopaths are narcissists. I’ve seen first hand (as we all have) how they scramble to backtrack, avoid, evade, distort reality to preserve their false selves. Not pretty to view, rather disturbing and pathetic if you ask me.
And Tami was correct is saying that cluster Bs are cowards. Evil people ARE cowards especially when they’ve pushed and pushed, terrorized a victim to their limits of tolerance and that person decides to push back.
For example, when an ex sociopathic lover stalked me for 2 years, banging on my doors and windows at all hours, begging and pleading for me to let him in because he “loves me” (huge eye roll) I tried every rational tactic under the sun and moon to just get rid of him and nothing worked.
He was deluded. He thought I was his possession, his sexual object to do with what he pleases just because I had a 3 month dalliance with him. And that’s all it was to me: sex. When he began to behave irrational, jealous and possessive I kicked him to the curb. But he resisted, of course.
So a brief fling for me became a 2 year nightmare of stalking and harassment. I swear, by the end of those 2 years I was exhausted from all the energy I had expended trying to be diplomatic, and the anger at his refusal to just f*ck off forever!
I bought a pistol. And the last time he boldly sauntered up to my apt door, I told him in a cold, monotone voice that I would fill his body with all six of these bullets if he bothered me again.
It worked better that I would have guessed because deep down, he was a yellow-bellied coward who abused and used women for his sick and evil pleasure.
A gal’s gotta do what a gal’s gotta do to protect herself from horrible males in this world.
EDIT: I probably should mention that I had been divorced from my ex husband for a short period of time when I met the sociopath. I was totally enjoying my freedom and being very young, was just looking for fun, good times without all the drama.
Yeah, that didn’t work out quite the way I wanted. Polar opposite actually.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:05pm
midlifecrisis says:
MArie France Hirigoyen writes in “Stalking the Soul”
“When this strategy (projection of hatred) works, with the hatres projected onto a target (that soon becomes prey, it calms inner tension; this allows the emotional abuser to act pleasantly in the outside world. This explains the astonishment, or even denial, of people who learn about the abusive actions of a close relation who had previously only shown their positive aspect. The evidence of the victims, seen in this light, hardly seems credible” (p.135)
“Victims use laser-like visions to detect the fragility and weaknesses of their abuser. Some also understand the pathological nature of the behaviour and shut themselves off when they detect signs of falseness in their partner.
The victims become dangerous adversaries when they begin to articulate what they have intuitively understood. They must be silenced by terror.” (p.147)
I am struggling with I guess what I might call anxiety – it is mild but all pervasive. I have all these things I want to do and when I think about them I sigh and can’t find any energy or any point to doing them. I am fiercely aware of the passing of time as I look at decaying blooms on the ground.
I feel he stole my youth and my energy and though he isn’t here anymore, he steals it still with the knowledge this experience of him gave me. I still dream about it. I wake up more tired than when I went to sleep. I don’t actually know how to heal from this. I am reading and writing and thinking and trying to do the things I used to enjoy, but it doesn’t seem to be working. I don’t want to take medication nor go for more therapy = both those avenues have not worked for me. I just want my vitality back and the knowledge that the world can be a good place. I just wonder if the body takes its own time to get over this, or am I stuck?
I teach people about abuse, personality disorders and psychopathy – I keep my personal experience in check and use theory and literature to back up what I say. I also talk about the physical effects of trauma on the body. There seems to be little guidance about how to heal from trauma like this around short of EMDR. Is this PTSD? This not being able to get over it? It’s so unlike any breakup I ever suffered before – this time I am just thinking about it lots, about how my life is so different, about how I shouldn’t be in this position, about how I am not happy. I have periods of happiness with friends, but it doesn’t last. Soon enough I am back to thinking about this again – it consumes my mind.
I think once we are over the worst of the painful emotion and can articulate clearly what we suffered we are very dangerous to the psychopath. I have one friend in the circle he is involved with who has not been won over by him – I have dropped hints to her about what happened to prime her for the full story which I will tell her when it is safe to do so. She will then infiltrate that circle and quietly spread the truth to his new woman. I feel sorry for her knowing what is coming. Will she make the right decision and leave him or will she cling to him and defend him? Who knows! It’s important that it isn;t me telling her – she would just think I am bitter and twisted at ‘losing’ him. No doubt he told everyone he dumped me when it is the other way around. I ended it = not because I wanted to but because there was no choice.
I am bitter about it – it naturally leaves a bitter taste in the mouth to be used so blatantly. I want revenge but there is no revenge that would hurt him as he has no feelings. Telling others is not revenge – it is speaking up for the truth and is more about giving his new woman what I never had – forewarning. I think honestly if someone had told me about him I would have at least listened and looked for corroborating signs, maybe getting out quicker. But then again depending on when I got the information I might have just defended him.
I have a sore wrist too! Too much mouse use I think – I am still reading extensively about personality disorders and I don’t actually know why! It’s an obsession. I know it will pass in time – I have had other traumatic obsessions and they faded with time too. So surely this one will as well.
I hope everyone is coping and getting through each day. It’s good for me to read that others are going through the same symptoms I am – makes me feel less abnormal! And very good to read that some people get much better as the experience fades with time. I hope it will for me as well. It’s been about eight months since I realised he was a P and only four months NC so I guess I am expecting miracles in getting rid of the memories of such a long relationship.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:13pm
sistersister says:
JaneSmith, thanks so much for acknowledging my post! I realize my concerns are kind of small compared with the really big problems posted here — but maybe signs of the bigger problems:
* That various degrees of sociopaths/psychopaths are everywhere, and we all have to deal with them even if we’re “healthy.” It’s just a poisoned landscape.
* That it’s hard to know indeed if you’re really healthy, over it, no longer sociopath-bait, especially when the signals coming at you are that you’re messed up and getting worse.
* And lastly, I am feeling really lonely lately — a passing thing, I’m sure, because I always seem to find a new “crowd” and have some loyal friends — but I’ve come to observe that I have lost a kind of intimacy I should have had.
The point is, behind all this weakness we decry is just wanting to be loved. And people who “fall for it” get that payoff, for a while anyway. At least the illusion of it.
Honesty exists somewhere, but in numbers too low. It’s as if narcissism has taken over our planet. Be a narcissist yourself if you don’t ever want to get hurt. I feel myself slipping away into a kind of narcissism myself, a pride, a defensiveness. Hardly time for tenderness or just letting my guard down.
Victimhood is, in the end, probably not much different than defensiveness. The problem and its negation are still the same problem, attracting the same flies.
I wish I could tell you, dear escapees from phony love, that there is a light at the end of this tunnel. I CAN tell you that you will definitely meet better people, even if you have to leave behind everyone you know. But I cannot attest to finding intimacy, love, romance and acceptance. It’s as if that kind of selfless, dangerous vulnerability is indeed the admission fee — especially for women.
Maybe we keep running a certain script until we’re run it enough times and our karma is satisfied. Then we stop, if only from boredom.
Thanks again, if only for listening!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:21pm
sistersister says:
I just read midlifecrisis and it’s just so well-written and devastating.
Hang in there. It sounds like a chemical imbalance, stress-related, the same obsessive thoughts burning the same grooves in your brain. I’ve been there, over other crises in my life.
Long-term stress can cause physical changes. It sounds as if you’re blaming this on thoughts, memories, all that — but it’s probably the habitual chemical reaction prompting the thoughts by this point.
My only advice is to just be very, very good to yourself, try new things, don’t try to predict if they’ll make you happy — and it’s OK if they don’t. Just random experience. Mix it up. Move somewhere sunny and warm. Find a good-looking, flaky young person for a meaningless fling (legal, of course). Learn something you “know” you can’t do (skiing works for me! bruises on my ass-bone to prove it . . .), learning thereby that you “know” nothing. Just drive your brain off-road, out of the grooves.
And, by the way, eat raw veggies and alkaline foods. It brings on mind-blowing clarity.
And, finally, comedy. Have you seen “Herman”? Absolutely the funniest comic strip around. Wait tables in a comedy club if there’s one nearby. . . .
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:40pm
sistersister says:
It’s a big world. Live in it.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:41pm
midlifecrisis says:
Thanks Sister sister – that was some good advice – glad to know someone else has been there and gotten out of it. I am meeting new people – forcing myself as I don’t feel like socialising. And like you I feel lonely but am sure it is a passing phase … I think my work isn’t helping me at the moment but I have to remain where I am till legal matters are sorted out – so I should try to unwind more in the evenings. Trying new things is a good idea – I think I will give that a go. Thanks for not mentioning drugs or therapy = have wasted thousands on both of those to little effect. I don’t want to be numbed to it – would rather just go through it and let what needs to come out come out.
Much love to you – you sound like you’re way down the track – great inspiration for someone at my stage!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 7:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Midlife,
The chemical and even physical changes to our brains from long-term or high stress are REAL, we are NOT the same as we were “before”—yes, it can be PTSD, and EMDR does help some, but in the end it is a “do it yourself” project and not one that is QUICK either.
I’ve been at it quite some time (most of my life) in various relationships with Ps and their dupes, starting with my family and moving on to my P-son, along with their duped enablers who can actually be “psychopaths by proxy” by doing their bidding to terrorize and persecute me.
Most of the time now, I am pretty good, but sometimes something will trigger me, a new stressor, or something along that line and WOW! I go into a tail spin and melt down.
When that happens, I have to almost go back to “ground zero” and look at what I did to ALLOW this melt down to occur, and generally I find that I had ultimately been making poor choices on something, and so I had to adjust MY behavior toward another person. I can’t control others, but I can and MUST control myself.
I find it hard or almost impossible to be interested in much of anything, I don’t enjoy things like I used to, so have to push myself to get out and do things rather than isolate. I have weeded out my rolodex of most of my poor choices for friends, and that has helped, and I now have a very thin rolodex but the people left there are GREAT people.
I no longer deal with people who are liars, people who are unkind, people who are not trustworthy and no longer make excuses for people like that in my life.
I’m learning more about me, and accepting that sometimes Ii tend to see things and people through rose colored glasses because it is easier than seeing the TRUTH, but I am slowly learning that “the truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off” and so when I do have a melt down now, it is over much more quickly than in the past, and I move back to taking care of myself.
I tend and have always tended to be a perfectionist where I am concerned and not so much a perfectionist with other people, so I am having a time “retraining” my thinking that I do NOT have to be perfect to be OK. I’ve never expected others to be perfect, so why do I expect myself to be “perfect?” A lot of our emotions don’t make logical “sense” but we predicate our thinking on them anyway. Retraining ourselves takes time and a lot of EFFORT.
Learning to set reasonable boundaries for those we interact with in our closest “circles of trust” is important, and in the past, I didn’t have those and didn’t expect or demand that those people treat me well. NOW I DO, or “get out of my life!”
It doesn’t matter WHAT the relationship is, if you do not treat me well, GO AWAY.
I set boundaries that to me seem reasonable.
NO LIES is number one on my list. Not 2 or 3 lies then out, but ONE lie and OUT! I don’t need anyone like that in my life.
NO dishonesty of any kind with anyone. No criminal record, no DWIs, no infidellity with your first wife, no stealing from your employer, no cheating on your taxes, no cheating of any kind and no excessive drinking, drug use, etc. If that sounds too harsh, too bad.
By eliminating anyone who is not 100% honest, who keeps their word, and is kind, I may have a limited number of people in my “circles of trust” but those people I do love and trust will not use or abuse me, lie to me or steal from me, and belive me I have had people I loved and trusted who did just that, all of those things.
Being good to yourself is important too, and I do recommend that you consider seeing a mental health professional who is familiar with PTSD, there ARE medications that do help, and there is therapy that does help, but sometimes some therapists don’t get it, and some medications may not work for PTSD, and just as you would not decide (I hope) to set your own broken leg, you won’t give up on appropriate mental health intervention. Just because the first person didn’t get it right doesn’t mean that no one or no therapy will be helpful.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 7:06pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
midlifecrisis, you wrote:
“Is this PTSD? This not being able to get over it? It’s so unlike any breakup I ever suffered before – this time I am just thinking about it lots, about how my life is so different, about how I shouldn’t be in this position, about how I am not happy. I have periods of happiness with friends, but it doesn’t last. Soon enough I am back to thinking about this again – it consumes my mind.”
And you also wrote that its about eight months since you realized he was a P and only four months NC.
So yes, you are expecting too much. Part of early-stage processing is just hating how we feel. We don’t want to feel this way. We think it’s something wrong with us that we’re not getting better faster. We are uncomfortable, extremely uncomfortable with where we find ourselves, and a lot of us (me included) imagine that if we can just take the blame for being so stupid that we can get over it fast.
Unfortunately, what you’re getting over is not just a relationship that didn’t go well, but a long-term chronic trauma situation. You’ve been abused. Your relationship with yourself has been compromised. And your understanding of human relationships in general has been severely challenged.
In other words, this is a major deal. The fact that you know a lot about abuse and personality disorders isn’t the same as going through the recovery process. If you taught people about that, you’d know the drill. Therapists describe it as stabilization, recovering and reframing memories, integration of new learning (and disassociated “parts” that were created in the trauma). And then we’re better than we were before.
My theory is that, once we do this whole thing once, it’s a lot easier to do it again. But those of us who come from traumatic backgrounds (childhood), and didn’t have the adult support to resolve those issues though the whole integration sequence, are actually doing this for the first time ever. And I suspect that most people who get in long-term relationships with sociopaths come from that kind of background. Because people who are good at resolving trauma, or efficient at it, would have gotten mad and kicked them out of our lives long before we did.
Getting out of early stage processing involves getting angry. I know you think you’re angry, but you sound like you’re really more in pain right now.
If you want a nudge in the right direction, get your journal out and start writing all the large and small things that you resented. Just resented. I know you’ve probably done something like this already. But I suspect you haven’t done it enough or drawn yourself a clear enough picture of exactly what you were dealing with. This was your life. Your ex was what happened to your life. You need to recover your clear memories of exactly what he did. And how you felt about it.
This is a process of getting out of your head and into the wisdom of your emotional system. I’m saying that as a person who was a world-class intellectualizer. This feeling that he stole your life, that’s an abstraction, a way of not thinking about it. When you decide to look at exactly what happened, you’re going to be astounded by what you learn, and by what you missed at the time. And it will be very good for you to get mad about the right things, the specifics.
It will also help you start creating new rules for living, get more sensitive about interference and abuse, and refine your defenses and your assertiveness. That is the best cure for anxiety.
Don’t worry about the time involved. And ignore anyone who tells you that you should be over it by now. You’re halfway through changing your life. If they don’t understand, they’re just too shallow to be dealing with you right now.
Love –
Kathy
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 7:27pm
midlifecrisis says:
Thanks Oxy – I have tried several meds and they worked as they should have ie numbed the pain. I find though that this just prolongs it and recognise that this reaction to what has happened is NORMAL
Human beings shouldn’t be betrayed by those who purport to love them – that is abnormal. And repeated betrayal is just devastating – it ruins your faith in humankind.
I was just looking at some books on PTSD and one looked like an intelligent take on it – it outlined that there were three causes of trauma in main – deliberate man caused trauma, accidental man caused trauma and natural disaster. It said that the worst to recover from is deliberate man caused (human caused it meant) trauma as this is the one that causes victims to lose faith in the basic goodness of the world and trust in their fellow humans. I agree with that take. It had a table that outlined various types of trauma and I was delighted to see that emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse were included for once as well as the usual surgery, accident and earthquake.
So my brain is going over and over something it can’t quite reconcile in an effort to understand it – that’s my take on it. I remember the same thing when I was grieving for my lost one – I would sit up till three in the morning reading online night after night after night – it was an obsession. I wish there was a weekend workshop to help us heal from this – some kind of ritualised way to kick start the healing process.
You are dead right about cutting unworthy people out of our lives. I have done the same and it has helped me quite a bit. My life is a bit lonely but I would rather have few friends than friends that use and cause drama – that would be like the whole situation repeating all over again. I couldn’t handle it this time. I don’t have time for it.
Being around good people I recognise as healing. I remember reading somewhere a research proposal for propolanol (wrong spelling I am sure) combined with travel for survivors – the drug stops the intrusive memories and thoughts and the travel forces the brain to carve out new networks rather than relying on the old ones that contain the triggers. I would love to do that but have great fear about leaving the familiar behind – probably this is to do with the anxiety as well. I haven’t been good to myself – putting everyone else ahead of myself is what got me into this mess so I need to start nurturing me for a change.
I will have a think about the therapy and look into who is available in my city – from memory nobody has specialist knowledge in this area nor in the area of abuse. I am definitely sure I don’t want to take meds though. I am wondering whether taking something natural might help with calming down the system – I might look into herbal remedies for anxiety. That might be the way to go.
Thanks for sharing your experience Oxy – half the battle is knowing it is normal in these situations. And hearing from other people helps immensely in that respect. I hope you are continuing to nurture yourself after the big hurt you went through recently – very glad you had a special friend you could just go and ‘be’ with – it makes life so much more bearable!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 7:50pm
JaneSmith says:
SisterSister,
Hello! Again you have written profound words that seem to echo my exact thoughts and situation in life.
I will also confess to feeling a bit lonely lately. Me, a decided, enthuastic introvert is lonely. It bothers me to feel like this. It goes entirely against my life philosophy and faith, my inner strength and independence to feel like I’m missing something germaine in my life.
Also, compared to the harrowing ordeals the LF members discuss, it seems so silly to complain about not having a loving, giving and caring mate in my life. I know I’m super blessed and I never take it for granted. Yet…well, you understand.
But as you wrote with crystal clarity…”but I’ve come to observe that I have lost a kind of intimacy I should have had.” BINGO! Once you have researched, studied your brain off regarding predators aka cluster Bs, their traits and performances, their evil machinations in a decided effort to educate yourself, there is no more room for illusions.
You don’t rip off those rose colored glasses that gave the world a false fairy tale glamour; they fall of their own will and crumble to dust.
But I will never regret learning the truth, the reality of who and what walks the world with us. Ever. And I also will never regret discovering who I am, flaws and all. I love me though not IN love with me. And the consequences of liking/loving oneself is an intolerance for any more bullchit. Plus, I’m spending the finite energy I do have on nurturing myself than screwing around with drama addicted fiends.
And, sweetheart, you’re too real, too candid to ever be a narcissist. Ain’t gonna happen. You see the world in all it’s horror but don’t forget about the balance. There is so much glory and beauty and love and kindness and generosity that dispells the evil. Kills it in it’s tracks.
You only need to look and see with newly innocent, yet wise ole eyes, heart, mind and spirit to witness it.
I do. Every day. In a myriad of ways. Countless sources of goodness and beauty revealing themselves before me.
Life is good. No, life is GREAT. All’s you gotta do is touch it, reach out for the good, the light, and it will be there.
Peace, Love and Joy to you, SisterSister…
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:11pm
midlifecrisis says:
Thanks Kathy – you are spot on that I understand it intellectually but not emotionally – it is still dissonant with my whole being. I can understand the WHY and the HOW but not the WHY ME and WHY DIDN”T I GET OUT. So my teaching to others is a brief overview of what I know at the moment about abuse and abusers and targets- it’s not designed to be the be all and end all but rather a springboard for anyone who has been there or is there to find some more information based on what vocabularly I give them. Part of the problem is not knowing the words to google!
I don’t include much about recovery because I don’t know much about recovery – I do highlight the importance of journalling and having support though. It’s such a complex field and like every other area of knowledge every theory is contested by another. At the moment my understanding is rudimentary – that this phenomenon afterwards is both emotional and bodily stored and experienced, it has to do with stress hormones and chemicals as well as bad memories and it is complex to recover from.
I have been through this obsession once before that I can recall. I am trying to remember how long it took me to get through it the first time and my heart is plunging as I remember it took YEARS not months. I wouldn’t say I am totally out of the first one and some of it in fact is colouring this one – because now I see the first trauma in context – in the middle of the larger abuse trauma and I am angry all over that there was no point to either of them but his convenience and his entertainment.
So writing about resentments – and just resentments – that’s probably the one area I haven’t written much about yet. I have written about the factual accounts of what happened and how I felt about it – well what I can recall anyway. I have big holes in my memory and what stands out when I look back are the dramas as punctuation marks in an otherwise perhaps unremarkable relationship. But it always was remarkable – there was always the undercurrent of the abuse – unacknowledged and denied. I guess I just don’t want to write about the same thing happening day after day – there was really never any change to the pattern.
It does feel like a big deal and yes I have people – lots of them telling me I should be over it by now. I just can’t though and you’re right – it feels so horrible to be here after taking the brave move of ending it and resolving that life would be much better. It’s insult to injury and very hard to take. It makes me feel as I did then = abnormal as though I have a horrid secret that nobody else could possibly understand = as though this experience sets me apart from the rest of humankind. I don’t relate to people the same and have to force myself to socialise.
So ok I am going to take your nudge and try the resentment idea – before even doing it I have a nasty feeling the resentments are going to be identical to those suffered in childhood …
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:16pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
(((midlife))): you didn’t deserve this treatment and pain, either in childhood or now. not ever. never.
nope.
could you use the format of the other weekend retreat you did to write an outline for yourself?
you know- we have no choice, and only opportunity in taking this long healing road. for me the word commitment keeps going through my mind in the last few weeks. I too lack some of the resources I need, inside me and outside of me. sometimes i don’t know how i will get committed (nooo joke intended) to this process. some days i am in the dark. but the days that i am not, i seize it. i suck up every good impression i can. we need that. there has been too much messy and ugly and just plain shit.
today’s bad joke: I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn’t find any.
hugs,
one step
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:04pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
sistersister, I see myself in everything you write. Even the advice to eat more alkaline foods. I keep a big bottle of Tri-Boron on my desk, and I’m waiting on my first shipment of maca to see how that works on my hormones and my mood.
You were talking about light at the end of the tunnel. With love, intimacy and acceptance. I had to go through a big grieving process about being attractive to men, after I got out of this relationship and discovered (under the auburn dye that covered a little streak of grey on my forehead five years before) that half my head white, my skin had aged a decade, and oh yeah, I was 55 and lost in grief. So I was suddenly at the end of a 30-year marathon of serial monogamy without the slightest preparation.
And then, of course, I had to learn all this stuff about taking care of myself and let go of being everyone’s perfect Barbie. And not having the foggiest idea of how to relate to a man if I wasn’t fluttering my eyelashes and signaling surrender. (Oh this is all so embarrassing to admit.)
Eventually I figured out that authenticity brought me into conversations with a whole new class of people. Really interesting people, but still no “juice.” And the truth is that I really don’t know how to do the slow-build, gradual trust relationships that I know are the right thing. There’s a part of me that still wants instant intimacy.
But here’s the light at the end of my tunnel, at least where I am now. I’m discovering that there are all kinds of incremental high points along the way. Last night I had a unbelievably great conversation with someone who is in the midst of changing his own life. This guy is in no shape to be getting involved with anyone right now. And I’m probably not either. But we connected, and it was amazing.
I walked away, thinking with a sigh that it was too bad he was so self-involved. Then I laughed at myself. I’m so self-involved these days that whatever I say to anyone else, I figure out the next day that I was saying it to myself. I don’t think there’s room in the room for me and anyone else right now.
I think (I hope) that at some point we just get over ourselves, and start getting more interested in the rest of the world. And that’s when things will start getting really interesting. Because we’ll be open again. Because we won’t make everything about me, me, me. But after going through all this, we also will be really int touch with our feelings, so we don’t have to suffer for for years or weeks or even minutes before we realize something isn’t good for us, and move on.
So, I think we’re getting there. And in the meantime, there are those great conversations with other people who are changing their lives.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:06pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
midlife, sometimes we talk about a period of obsessing over things. My take on it is that we’re getting ready for getting angry. A lot of us don’t do that naturally, so we have to pick at it for a while to try to figure out how we should be responding to it.
I had a pretty long time in the beginning of just feeling battered by painful feelings and snapshot memories and sometime feeling like he was actually in the room, haunting my life. And all I wanted was a nice, neat “story” I could tell people and tell myself about what happened. But try as I might, I couldn’t boil it down to anything less than a litany of confusion and aggrievedness about how mean he was to me.
And then finally, I got into this weird little thing about talking to myself about whether he was a “bad guy.” Because I don’t like to judge people, and this was a pretty extreme judgement. But if he were a bad guy, then I didn’t have to care anymore about trying to keep my thoughts about him in the “nice” range. And then, after spending God knows how long figuring out the official criteria for bad guys, and then figuring out if he matched it, I finally gave myself permission to stop trying not to judge him. And then, at last, I started to get mad.
And by that time, having matched him to the official bad guy criteria, I had a lot to get mad about. I think I make things more complicated than they need to be sometimes. But I never gave myself permission to get mad at someone before, not like that, so it took a little doing.
You know how I’m always talking about the angry phase (and the people who are in the angry phase are always getting mad at me for talking about it)? It’s something you have to go through. It’s really important for a lot of reasons.
But for you, right now, one of the best things is that it does change your brain chemicals. Gets you out of the dark and swampy victim mindset into a whole new, blazingly well-lit point of view. It’s part of a larger process, and you won’t be angry forever, but you’ll be surprised at how much you like it when you get there.
And you deserve it. You have every right to be angry. You were screwed over and treated as though you had no value and your life had no meaning, except what that person could use you for. That’s a terrible thing to have to live through.
A big hug –
Kathy
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:24pm
slimone says:
LTL,
Just catching up on this thread and read one of your posts ‘way up there’, where you talked about getting sexual very quickly. I totally agree with you that one way of weeding out LOTS, but not all of these twerps, is to keep our clothes on! This would have sent the last one packing for sure.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:54pm
autisticsouls says:
Midlife, i can’t really begin to know what you and so many others are going or have gone through. i can only recognize somthing that i myself experienced to compare it too.
The closest thing to it is how i was bullied as a child. i was really tended to and sheltered by my parents and family. i thought since my parents and relatives and family friends loved and accepted me that everyone would too. then i went to mainstream school with regular kids and found that wasn’t true. for the longest time i had no real knowing of the concept of cruelty. i knew the word and the definition but had no real understanding of what it actually was or meant until i experienced it myself as a child being alone and bullied.
The Temple Grandin movie hit me hard in this aspect reliving how people have treated us. i am so aware of my child and while she is perfection to me. it’s the rest of the world i’m worried about and her place in it. I fear how much of the world would be very unfriendly to them if i allow them out of the safe haven i have built for them both.
i wish i was like my wife who can hear someone refer to her as a walking vegetable and not blink an eye even though she understands every word. i flinch for her. the words bite me to the core. But she moves on without feeling it, never really internalizing the cruelty of the world around her.
our doctor stated once there was something psychopathic about it, i flinched from his remarks not liking his association at all. but he explained about how some things don’t get to them both. they don’t feel the same things others feel. they seem to be always detached from it, which was why he said it was called autistic psychopathy once. there have been tests made, autism running in families is studied extensively, some genes have been looked over, brain scans and the such, some areas of the brains seem affected in the same places, looking remarkabley similar with just very subtle differences. high threshold for pain, and some other similar issues presented.
But my wife and child are highly moral creatures. no one knows where they got it from, it wasn’t something that was taught to them, my child non verbal while the simplest concepts are so difficult to her, she taps a YES and NO button to answer questions and was seen to be a highly moral child before she could get anyone else to teach her anything else, it was like highly ingrained inside of her before she was even fully aware of the world around her.
it was a different sense of morality, a simplestic one, standing up against every social pressure, unflinching, unbending and pure. they can hurt you some if you are not careful, they are sensitive to a person’s soul, but not their egos. they’s always keep your soul and spirit safe, egos are something else altogether, they’ll trample on that as they are unaware of it.
how do i keep them safe from this ugly, cruel world built on so much lies? i want society to value them as i do but i can’t force that to happen. i broke when people laughed at me, not understanding why, i fill with rage when people laugh at them, wanting to protect them from it, even as they move around without a sound or a care. there’s something stronger than ten men altogether in them both. unnerved and unbending, unflinching and brutal. they are not gentle though they are true. they are not kind though they are just. they are merciful to your soul but they will never cater to anyone’s egos. I nearly fear they don’t belong here in this world that just isn’t prepared for the likes of them.
i’m reading a book now by Jodee Blanco Please stop laughing at me…, http://www.jodeeblanco.com/ as i come to terms with old wounds that have not healed yet. Kathy’s posts about adult issues coming from childhood issues brought me back to when i suffered for the first time cruelty by others. The world turned out to be a completely different place than what my parents raised and prepared me for. like being just, decent and unselfish all these things, what does it all mean when those things didn’t seem to mean anything in the REAL world?
Lieing, betrayal, disrespect that’s not things people that love you do. that’s cruelty. and no one deserves cruelty. it happens, it’s around us everday, we watch it on the news, but it doesn’t mean we deserve it or have to accept or ever get used to it. it’s never going to feel ‘right’ because it isn’t ‘right’…
there are way too many bad people in the world that do very bad things to us, and too many others apathetic to it all. But that is not the way the world should be. and it’s hard to get to a place where the world should be. this isn’t some accidental thing, some environmental issue, some act of nature. cruelty isn’t natural. we should not tolerate malice.
i used to feel like i was some genetic mistake, some freak of nature, some pod person from the invasion of the body snatchers left on the wrong planet. but the world as it stands is a poor reflection of what it should be. and we do break because of it. because what IS isn’t natural. What IS shouldn’t be…
Oxy says “NO LIES is number one on my list. Not 2 or 3 lies then out, but ONE lie and OUT! I don’t need anyone like that in my life.
NO dishonesty of any kind with anyone. No criminal record, no DWIs, no infidellity with your first wife, no stealing from your employer, no cheating on your taxes, no cheating of any kind and no excessive drinking, drug use, etc. If that sounds too harsh, too bad…”
it’s not too harsh, if my wife lied to me i could not be with her any longer, because she would no longer be the person i thought she was. there are many other issues that makes living with her strenuous at times. but some of it is just harmless stuff that she can’t help, like me coming home to homeless people that she has brought home for dinner or they insisting on wearing mismatched shoes. but those things are some of the things i love about them. idiosynchronicities that i’ve had to get used to sharing my life with other people that i love and respect. some discomforts you just get used to being around people you love, like in the Temple Grandin movie where Temple couldn’t tolerate being touched but got used to having her blind friend attached to her arm. Some discomforts you tolerate when it’s someone you love.
lieing betrayal and being hurtful and disrespectful, having a poor moral character, that’s not just some discomfort a person should tolerate because we love them. They are intolerances… it should be automatic but when one is taught these things as a child, it has to be readdressed, because people grow up into adults and relive it it’s never going to feel ‘right’ no matter how many times it repeats itself…
Well my night thoughts today. so much powerful stuff that people are going through. so much people have to recover from. will we all get there? or do we wait until we get to that place my wife and child spend their time in? That reality where things are really as they should be. the place where every prayer has been answered and every dream has come true…
Mike
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Mike,
I think it is a FACT of life that people who are “different’ or don’t fit the stereotypical “everyman”—whether it is because they are “fat” or “short” or “tall” or “dumb” or Stutter or whatever makes them stand out from the “norm” suffer abuse from some other children.
Schools are working on this with the “anti bullying” policies, yet still there can be more subtle forms of this devaluation that cut to the core of the child’s self esteem.
I’m glad that you agree with me on the “no tolerance” policy of tolerating dishonesty in others within our “inner circle.” I realize that my entire life I have tolerated some pretty nasty treatment from those who “loved” me and couldn’t figure out why being “nice” to them didn’t get me “nice” in return. I realized much of my “toleration” of this devaluation of myself from those I “loved” was because I was taught this as a child as part of my “family responsibility.” NO more!
I’m looking forward to seeing the movie on Temple, my friend is taping it off HBO since I don’t have cable. She watched it and said it is WONDERFUL. She has always been one of my heros, and I use a livestock handling facility that is designed by her for humane treatment of livestock. She has revolutionized the handling of livestock all over the world. Great woman!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:13pm
anitasee says:
Wow, I have not gone back and read all the recent posts, but came on LF tonite to vent in my safe place about how the bullies always win. And then thought, lets read a little bit of the thread first……….
So I will vent a bit. My bully is about to win. Unless I am prepared to put everything into it, and risk bankruptcy if the courts award him costs, unless I can find and prove and so on, despite the picture I have painted, of a man that can’t even tell the truth on his DRIVERS license, that don’t matter. I can prove he took, and that’s all. So I am going to lose. And what I have been soul searching about is how much of this is pride?
How much of this is hanging on to some vestige of something that no longer matters?
Yes, the minute, and I mean the MINUTE I sign on the dotted line, he literally, and figuratively sails off into the sunset. And I do not.
So my question to y’all is , is this about justice? And does it matter? Should I fight this fight, on principal? Not out of blind vindictiveness, can’t let go, I’ll show the bastard, but cool calm steady relentless quest for justice? And, having done so, so far should I now give in?
It will not be pretty. I am still in his movie. This is NOT N/C.
And then you realize how the bullies always win. They get off Scott free and win awards and prizes and accolades. And us empaths are left to tend the fires and save the seeds and offer a touch of sentiment, for the ones that run the show.
What keeps me going are new heroes that I find, in music and speech and all kinds of places. And I feel we are witnessing a period of history where the groundswell of empaths will defeat the small minority of S’paths, truelly, an epic event is looming.
It can be a holocaust or a renaissance, and the feeling I get is that the bulk of the world is ready on every level for a rennaissance. A beautiful awakening, a stepping back from the madness.
The question to me is how will I do my part? On how many levels. And does my own personal S’path count?
I know the awnswer is no..but still…
P.S. Oxy, Kathleen, LTL and many many more…love you and your courage..
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:59pm
midlifecrisis says:
Anita – I am really sorry you are in this position – I don’t know your particular circumstances but have seen abundant cases where the bastards have won because empaths fight fair and they do not. I am having the same thoughts about the fight – mine is coming up. Do I just give in and let him rape me one more time to be rid of him or do I stand up and say ‘enough’!? I don’t know the answer to that. I am sorry he is winning = what kind of idiot judge can’t see a liar in front of them and accords them special treatment? I think the justice system needs a radical overhaul as it seems to priviledge liars over truth tellers – that’s not justice. It’s a travesty.
So in short I have no answer to your question = but vent away! You will be in my thoughts and prayers
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:06am
midlifecrisis says:
Mike – I can relate a little – not to having autism, but to being bullied at school. I was picked out because I was little for my age (boy have I made up for lost time lol!) and was very very shy. A big boy would swing his bag at my head after school every day and it would catch my earring, infecting my ear. Nasty nasty behaviour and for no other reason than picking on someone smaller.
Bullying sucks.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 1:20am
ErinBrock says:
Anitasee:
I DO NOT believe the bullies Always win! I do not with ALL my heart and knowledge!
I beleive and it has been my experience that ….with immensly hard work and determination…..we CAN expose,hence run em over!
We need to develope our own recipe for crushing them…..in the legal system…..and must follow through to the end…..the very end.
I am bummed to read your post, how you are certain your going to ‘lose’ in court…..WHY do you give up with this before the fat lady has sang!???
It’s work girl….work, hard, tenacious,looooonnnnngggggg emotional work!
This is what we must decide is the worth?
For me…..I knew I would come out without the physical health, without health insurance to cover additional treatments etc…and raising my kids alone….
I knew he wouldn’t be happy/content until I was dead….the end ofthe road….for him!
So…..at that point i decided to throw myself into this fight….full force, dedicated,staying up late/early and working on it gathering recon, doing my own detective work…..following up, gathering documentation and organizing it…..for 2 years! I was EB!
I lived, ate and breathed this mission…..to ME….I had to do this! I saw NO other choice…..this is the individual choice we all must make…..but be dedicated and know what it’s going to require…..either way….fight or walk away…..there is a price topay….
Only we must weigh the price!
I knew he would devastate me financially and we would be under a bridge….sick with kids…..
I knew if it got there…..suicide may be a viable option…..
So…..I chose life and the fight!
I figured out MY recipe to be successful in the always variable legal world…..and I attained what I set out for….and more.
I know if I….ME….non educated ME…..can do it….ANYONE CAN!!!
I believe this…..to my core….
I lost some battles……and regrouped and rethought…re organized and came back full force…..
I grew , grew, grew in the learning process…..
I grew weary, I cried,I felt defeated at times……BUT…..I allowed myself some rest and used the above to strengthen me……to come back with new guns!
We must remain balanced during the process……when we win some battles…..we must not get too cocky…..when we lose some battles…..we must not allow ourselves to get too down…..we must maintain the balance….not too high,not too low.
Balance!!
Balance, follow through, set the pace with ALL involved, and keep on and DO NOT EVER GIVE UP!!!!
Treat all involved as if they were in nursery school…..YOUR the teacher…..you teach your attorney and the judge through the information and documentation YOU provide.
And know…..at some point…..they hang themselves!!!!!
Just allow it……and remain balanced!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 1:52am
Rosie says:
I found this site a few days ago, and I have learned so much about my spath/narcissistic ex (the father of my 2yr old), as well as how to ‘handle him’. Wish I had found it sooner, then maybe I would have handled things better instead of turning inside out, and acting like a crazy woman.
This blog is especially good!!
YES
Like a practical joke
Cold, unflappable, even attempts at apologies sounded wooden. “Just get over it” (after 2 years together producing a baby and a home, and only a few months apart)
I do take some repsonibility for letting him into my life, the statuesque charming Police Sergent with the warm smile and penetrating hazel eyes. I worked out pretty early on that he was something of an unknown quantity, and he admitted that 5 years earlier he agreed to have a child with his (ex)wife and then promptly left her at 1 month pregnant…, which raised serious questions about his charachter. But me trying to cool it off with him sent him into charm overdrive. I was treated like a princess, thought he was the man of my DREAMS. Looking back I was a challenge “can I get away with this” . Then 2 months later I was pregnant, he wanted to keep the baby and we would raise it together, we bought a house and moved in. Meanwhile he was telling his ex wife and ex girlfreind (I found out later) “just what I need, more f*cking child support to pay…but I do like her so I suppose I’ll give it a go” He told them both exactly the same thing, and also lied and told them our house was in trust so that if we split I couldt have any share in it.
Fastforward a year, I found his WIll which was written 6 months earlier, and i had been left out of it.
Weeks later I snuck his cellphone from under his pillow and discovered his affair.
Gave him another chance after I moved out, I’m pretty sure now that he used that chance to charm me and try a certain ’sex act’ with me that we’d never gotten around to, while he shopped for his new girlfreind.
I was still breastfeeding our son after all this, and I’d lie there crying feeling so much love for my son and so much hurt over being used.
My self
I AM SO GLAD I HAVE FOUND A PLACE TO HEAR OTHERS STORIES AND TALK ABOUT IT WITHOUT LOOKING CRAZY!!
I realise the best way is to simply not react, not show weakness or sadness, no contact beyond things relating to our son ,usuially by text as I find talking the on phone leads to me getting upset somehow.
And above all, BE YOUR BEST MOST CHARMING HEALTHY GORGEOUS HAPPY CONFIDENT SELF…LIKE THE OLD YOU BUT EVEN BETTER!! NOT FOR THEIR SAKE, BUT FOR YOURSELF AND THOSE WHO LOVE AND DESERVE YOU IN THIER LIFE!!
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:27am
ErinBrock says:
GO ROSIE!!!
Welcome to LF….you’ll find more and more information here that you will relate to and learn from!
Take good care of you…..your on a roller coaster…and day to day, minute by minute….you may feel different feelings……
You sound like a very strong and forward thinking woman…..this will serve you well!
Take good care and thanks for sharing your situation with us!
I look forward to hearing more from you!
Welcome, welcome!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:45am
Rosie says:
Thankyou so much Erin
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 3:02am
shabbychic says:
Rosie, Hi : ) … I’m glad you found this site, it has helped me A LOT!! Sounds like you were on a gigantic roller coaster. You certainly won’t sound crazy here… most people don’t understand… but we do! Love your last paragraph!!
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 3:26am
Aeylah says:
Hi Rosie and welcome. The rollercoaster ride will not be easy to gett off of but stick to your resolutions now matter how hard….you have strength, you have courage and you have support here at LF! …I don’t post often at all, but read and read and it’s amazing how this has helped me.
Remember one thing…..they don’t change! no matter what crisis or “illuminating experience” they have and they swear that they have changed they don’t. Dont believe what you hear from him. Look at his track record and look at his actions and you will see history repeat itself again and again.
Be strong and stay healthy….your baby needs you to be that.
(((hugs)))
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 8:40am
Aeylah says:
Erin B,
loved your post, you are an amazing strong woman and good inspiration. I hope all is going well for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 8:42am
witsend says:
anitasee,
Personally I think that you need to weigh it out very carefully. And ask yourself the question: What is winning in your individual situation? And how important is it to you?
Also no one knows your personal situation better than yourself. You know your s/p better than anyone. If in his personal life he is low functioning or high functioning. If he is a low life and can’t keep a job or if he has a high power job. Generally speaking if he has a high power job chances are he got there by being ruthless and he will be ruthless in the courts system as well.
How much proof (paperwork & documentation) and how much time do you have. Or how much time are you willing to put into this. And what do you want the outcome to be?
As much as s/p/n can be of the cookie cutter variety, as they pretty much can be carbon copies of one another….We have to also remember there are some differences as well. Some can be very driven to continue to ruin your life. And also some can be more dangerous than others.
There are bloggers here that have fought in the courts and have won and feel very good about the time they invested in attaining that goal. And there are others who many years later find themselves still being dragged back to court, over and over again. (financially broke and emotionally drained)
I think MUCH of the difference in these outcomes, is not so much in the “victims” involved in these cases but the predator involved in these cases.
Soul search about the risks involved in your personal situation.
Sometimes a win is just simply your freedom and being able to walk away and begin your new life spath free.
And for others there is a certain amount of pleasure by going to court and winning in the eyes of the law.
But this needs to be measured carefully. By what exactly you are hoping to gain in the end.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:30am
neveragain says:
Witsend–Totally agree with the post above.
The predator I was involved with has a new gig. Now he has set himself up as a high end portrait photograph with a discreet little studio. How perfect for him! He has an excuse to be alone with beautiful women, to “establish a rapport”, talk them into a little more cleavage showing, and if that goes well, he’ll see how much more he can get them to take off….just for the power of it, not for what he’ll see. Makes me sick.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:11pm
learnthelesson says:
Mike said
“Lieing, betrayal, disrespect that’s not things people that love you do” – Agreed. But it made me think further…
Is that something that people who DONT love themselves do? Is it something within people who havent learned to love themselves AND who havent bonded, connected with others choose to do? Is there something that these people DONT have in them that enables them to do it? Like we DONT have in us to do what they do? Is it so cut and dry that these people are intentionally dishonest, disloyal and disrespectful?
Im in no way APATHETIC to this souls, and I am in no way looking for excuses for them- Im strictly wondering, the formation of them – we just say the reasons they do what they do is because they can — thats not enough for me … so I ask and ask and ask…once I get past the shock and pain and hurt and disgust — is it something people do who dont love themselves? And therefore have absolutely no problem doing it to others
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:13pm
Rosa says:
Anitasee:
You wrote: “My bully is about to win….So, I am going to lose.”
I think you may be answering your own question here.
If I were in your shoes, and I already knew (or believed) that I was going to lose, I would NOT pursue the case any further. I would absolutely sign on the dotted line and let him ride off.
It’s called cutting your losses, and people do it in the business world every day.
Besides, it sounds like you will finally be free of him.
That’s a victory right there.
Maybe not the kind you were hoping for.
But, nonetheless, a victory.
If you DO decide to pursue this case, then you need to change your mentality from a defeatist to a WARRIOR… “My bully is NEVER going to win…..I will fight this to the bitter end.”
I would suggest that you take your pride and emotions out of this situation, and take a step back to look at it objectively.
Then make your final decision, without all of the emotions.
Because, at the end of the day, pride, vengeance, justice or whatever you are fighting for here, is not going to pay your bills.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:18pm
learnthelesson says:
Rosie -
Welcome to LF. Im glad you found it too!
Your post reminded me of something we really all need to focus on..
Giving second chances, third chances… after already have been put thru hell and back….we go back…
We ALL have…
We have to understand this as it being part of our responsibility – it becomes OUR CHOICE once we are aware we are with a BAD MAN — we dont seem to really process it – beyond the facts of what we went through and share it all – we then say — then I went back, or then I gave him another chance, or I just couldnt stay away – they start to charm us again and profess they are sorry and they are changed and will do better — we dont seem to be able to draw the line. And we get sucker punched worse than ever before. Each and every time.
There are some situations in life where if someone is truly sorry, they will say and act and repent and change. But when its things like lying to 3 women, or stealing, or abusing or any number of the horrific things they do and we rationalize, or internally deny — just like the things I experienced — and like Rosie and so many of us have — we just kept giving chances. WHATS THAT ABOUT? There are prob people that deserved real and valid 2nd chances with me – and I had no problem saying No and walking away == but I gave them to a Sociopath.
Rosie, thank you for sharing your story. For reminding me and others to think about why in the world we would ever give these people 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc…. CHANCES. When the reality is we are just not wanting to face the truth – the reality of who they really are and how we let them treat us. We should be giving ourselves the chance to get away -
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:29pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Anitasee,
“Winning” and “losing” is not cut and dried. There is a thread here about it, and encouraging to ocontinue to fight, I wrote one in opposition to it, that WINNING is sometimes just walking away from the fight UPRIGHT with all your teeth still intact. (you can search on this site for OxDrover to see my articles)
There is an old country and westernn song called “the winner” and is a story about an old beaten up and broken bar fighter talking to a younger man about “being a winner” and though this old man “won” the fights he was in, in each case he PAID A HIGH PRICE OF HIS OWN FOR THAT “WIN.” Teeth knocked out, eyes gouged out, but he “WON.” Sometimes beating the other person up at a hhigh cost to yourself is not WINNING in my opinion.
Sure, it pays a toll either way you go, if you drop the law suits and walk out you can perceive that they “won” or you can also perceive that “I walked away with my dignity and still standing and didn’t risk my entire financial future on a justice system that is skewed.”
Believe me, “justice” is not often in the court systems. If you don’t believe that Google ‘JUDGE GERALD GARSON” and realize that there ARE crooked judges and plenty of judges who DO NOT “Get it” about psychopaths. Or judges who ARE psychopaths.
I agree totally with Wits End.
Right now, I am fighting the parole of my own son, who is a psychopath, Delux version, and hope to keep him in prison for the rest of his natural life. He murdered a girl when he was 20, and a couple of years ago tried to have me killed by one of his friends (for an inherritence issue) and I can’t keep him from sending another person to try to kill me, but I can see that any inheritences he ends up getting will be spent at the prison store. Even this “mental contact” in preparing the documents for the attorney I hired to protest his parole is triggering me to some extent, but I DO know that I will be safer if he is incarcerated, and SOCIETY will be safer if he is incarcerated, because he is totally unrepententant and crimes are FUN to him. I actually have that in his own hand writing!
I’m paying a price in money, but also in emotion, to fight his parole and I know that I will have to refight this at least every five years and maybe more often…and if he ever does get out, I will have to pack up and go into hiding again as will my other two sons. In the meantime, my egg donor (the woman who gave birth to me) is sending the poor baby money and hiring him an attorney to argue for his parole release to her home which is located on the same farm as mine, knowing his background and still ENABLING him, regardless of the danger to anyone else or society.
What you do about your sitruation is for YOU to decide what the benefit vs the potential cost is worth.
Sometimes the victim wins “justice” and sometimes not, but each of us has to decide what the potential cost of winning or losing is. Good luck and God bless.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:45pm
Matt says:
Hi, all:
Was also feeling totally blue because I realized that it was one year ago today that I got laid off. Then I started watching the blizzard here in NYC. I live on a very high floor, so it is sort of like living in a cloud. Believe it or not that started to make me feel better.
Anyhow, I went online to MSN.com and came across this article by Liz Pulliam Weston. http://articles.moneycentral.m.....ripped-off
If you can’t get it from this link, just got to MSN.com and go to the money section.
What makes this article fascinating is that FINALLY A JOURNALIST USES THE WORD SOCIOPATH. She discusses this in the context of how we get ripped off and she quotes from Martha Stout. A really good read.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 1:51pm
learnthelesson says:
Matt –
Wish there was a “likes this post” option here!! Glad you realized you are in the clouds today with a beautiful view!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:20pm
blueskies says:
Blizzard? we had a blizzard today here in blighty… I left the hospital.. and the sun went in and a sudden blizzard descended… horizontal snow fall, all whipped up and windy! I fought though the looong 2 minute walk to the bus stop, (my forehead froze and my ears nearly fell off, felt like miles!) the bus came I got on and walked up the aisle, children screamed, bus driver sniggered, I couldnt quite work it out… but when I looked in the window: I had a ‘drift’ of snow a-top of my head ( a snow fro!) and ‘kiss’ eye make up.xx
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:31pm
learnthelesson says:
Blueskies – Hope you stuck your tongue out for the full effect!
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:52pm
Aeylah says:
Matt,
Good for you that you found a silver lining being high in the sky. From your vantage point maybe you can feel like a bird soaring in the sky above the grind and above all the sociopaths.
I feel your pain, I’ve just past the 6 month mark since being laid off myself…..and no real relilef in sight. In my vulnerability, I fell prey again to the S in my life again, big mistake….hope you dont fall into that trap too.
The sun, jobs and healthy love will shine again on all of us. Tomorrow will be a better day.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 3:26pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
I wish I could take you out to your favorite restaurant for a really great meal, to take your mind off of this “one-year anniversary”.
And, I’m not a sociopath, so when I say I would take you……that means I would actually pay….with my own $$$.
Blueskies:
“kiss eye make-up”
Not the eye make-up!!! Anything but the eye make-up!!
The eye make-up is hard to fix. I feel your frustration…..darn snow.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 4:03pm
autisticsouls says:
(learnthelesson says:
Mike said
“Lieing, betrayal, disrespect that’s not things people that love you do” – Agreed. But it made me think further…
Is that something that people who DONT love themselves do? Is it something within people who havent learned to love themselves AND who havent bonded, connected with others choose to do? Is there something that these people DONT have in them that enables them to do it? )
be so this not Mike answering he be so ask of mineself. be some of us answer. be so they be some been born into themselves like this, be so some were created into thus direction, be so some have chosen to be thus empty, be so how they come about be so irrelevency to ourselves. be so what they are now that be issue. the actions and intentions be all that is in the here and the now. all we see separate from their yesterdaylands which be but another story altogether and will have naught to do with todays story. they naught cry for our pity or our compassion as we not have it to give to nothingness, thus they will always move on to you…
they seek not healing, they seek not to change, they seek not a cure. we naught listen to their lies but look into their souls, that we come up empty is all that matters. some perhaps be born without, some be so the soul vacated at some point, some be so the soul not attached itself so firmly. be so none of that matters when we look. if there be nothing there, there be nothing there. we be not in the interest of feeding delusions.
(Learningthelesson:Like we DONT have in us to do what they do?)
Everyday peoples DO have in themselves to do what pretender breeds do, be so all that is in ourselves is also in the everyday breed, be so all that is in the pretenders also sparks in everyday peoples. many chose not to, while many chose to, some do in certain situations, some do not in other episodes. be so dependant on the season of that everyday soul, which way they will turn. never we can say for surety which way for certain an everyday breed will turn. like a flip of a coin in everyday breeds it can go either way. unpredictable be so everyday breeds. With such fascination we watch you.
be so while pretenders be simple creatures that there be only one way they always go.
naught we waste our thoughts on pretenders when everyday peoples much more interest to us in their ambivelence. everyday peoples state of “in between” states. sometimes they can be selfish, sometimes they can be charitable, sometimes cruel, sometimes kind, sometimes, weak, sometimes strong.
There be in everyday peoples their ’sometimes’ in pretender mode and their ’sometimes’ in true form. everyday peoples fickleness is not much understood. be so you a particular inbetween breed. be so sometimes much a noble creature of grace, be so sometimes just as ugly as the pretender.
we know where we stand with pretender, be so they be predictable in their nature to us. Half a thought is all it takes to understand them. be so not an interest we have to overthink and create more than what is. there simply isn’t much to nothingness.
(Learningthe lesson: Is it so cut and dry that these people are intentionally dishonest, disloyal and disrespectful?)
Yes.
(learningthelesson: Im in no way APATHETIC to these souls, )
Souls? be so since when pretenders be souls? they be pretenders. they be so just the pretence of souls, they be so choked their souls out of those bodies some time ago by the choices they made. they be the pretence of love. there be nothing but pretence because they have naught souls, so pretence be all they have to give for nothingness which be their true form. Some child peoples are salvageable from this abyss, some are not. everyday peoples are always redeemable. pretender breeds are wasted effort.
perhaps be so some have a longago memory of a soul in the memories of created ones, but the memory of having a soul once, be not not enough to carry that emptiness around. souls naught rest easy in some and in inner conflict long ago and then they be gone. be so a mother may mourn for a child that long ago died, but naught having no peace she be having because the physical shell still walks the earth.
(learningthelesson: and I am in no way looking for excuses for them- Im strictly wondering, the formation of them – we just say the reasons they do what they do is because they can —)
No, not because they can, be so because of what they be, or have chosen to be, and thus they can.
(learningthelesson: thats not enough for me … so I ask and ask and ask…once I get past the shock and pain and hurt and disgust — is it something people do who dont love themselves? And therefore have absolutely no problem doing it to others)
be so some naught love themselves, be so some love the freedom of the emptiness of themselves either way either version will do that and more (if allowed) to you, yours and others. be so the only reason many do not outright kill be but no more than it be not in their best interest to be so confined if caught. they be only destroying what they can because of the fear of your total physical destruction would mean to them. but rest assured if this not be a punishing society, many would have left a carnage of bodies in their fold. be so your spirit be nothing more than the next best thing to some, and to others be so one physical killing be sudden and final, spirit killing be so a continuous sport.
Des
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 6:33pm
learnthelesson says:
Des -
Wow. Powerful strong comments. Reading your answers made a lot of sense, a way I never really viewed so black and white and only one way to view them and be able to accept it and that be that.
I am trying to understand how come we dont say this about mentally ill people or autistic people or OCD people (who were born differently) but when given an opportunity to be on medication or therapy they go in a different direction in life. I know there is presently no cure or therapy or treatment – and I am not spending wasteful time overthinking or creating more than what is by giving this thought – just my minds curiosity of why are they exempt from having a reason/a birth defect/a disability and so many other diagnoses do.
Why is it I want to believe not ALL of them are so cut and dry?
Why is it I dont want to believe that ?
When I try to compute it so all encumbering as you put it – I have a wrongful feeling in my soul — or fearful feeling — if what you are saying is true for ALL OF THEM. Maybe I fear the truth?? Or maybe I feel there is more to it in terms of whats missing in them and WHY.
Did some choose to be mentally ill or choose to be autistic or choose to be OCD or as you say choose to be a Sociopath?? Or was there something different in the “creation” of all the above. Also, yes it does not matter from an everyday point of you – they are what they are — but I do wonder how everyone came to be and why some, with proper help and treatment – can be given the choice to become the best they can be.
What you say, explain makes perfect sense. I may just need time to digest it and accept it or agree with most of it, but not ALL of it.
Thank you Des. Very informative. Very raw and real answers
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 7:20pm
autisticsouls says:
be so learning the lesson,
we can not see no other way, be so not wanting to. be so like the pretender breed we feel no need to change. they be what they be as we be what we be. and we not get much in each others way.
be so we not consider evil an illness. nor illness evil. sometimes the soul seems to only sing for some only while in madness state. one can be ill and still their soul sings healthy and strong.
be so there be some pretenders be much, by a defect in the way they be born, but we lose no sight of the fact that if given that ‘magic’ pill most will choose not to take it.
the exception being those incarcerated that will chose to take the magic pill simply as an act of self interest, (wanting out of jail) but most will not. those you seek be so far and few between we not give it much thought…
be so in most there be a choice, freedom of will takes a great part of what is their reality. be so there be the one point in times where the will and choice to fight the inclination and a will and choice to give into the inclination took place. be so we content this be the most of the many we be seen.
many not strong enough to fight the inclinations and have naught proper support from the society which disposed them until their conditions and thus be so lost. but that still be a choice.
be so many everyday peoples be souls that happen to have the challenges of bipolar, schizophrenia, autism, and other such issues. but at the core they be souls. alive still. singing inside. still there to touch, why they be haveing these struggles we know not. sometime they know and sing and strive in spite of all.
the pretender breed be such we have seen that we not know what be the cure for evil. we know not what be the cure for a shell that be so like walking death. what be the cure of a body holding nothingness. we be not given the answers ‘why’ to this. just the means to recognize evil and recognize walking death and recognize nothingness.
be so it would be good for some of you to pray for these, as we do not. our compassion is much conditional.
des
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 8:32pm
learnthelesson says:
Des says -
“be so in most there be a choice, freedom of will takes a great part of what is their reality. be so there be the one point in times where the will and choice to fight the inclination and a will and choice to give into the inclination took place. be so we content this be the most of the many we be seen.
many not strong enough to fight the inclinations and have naught proper support from the society which disposed them until their conditions and thus be so lost. but that still be a choice.”
You make much sense Des.
I lost compassion for them long ago. Understanding them or wanting to – is self-driven on my part. Not in a distracting way – just in how they fit in the world of so many personality disorders and that there is no treatment. I guess the question remains are they all without souls or are their souls damaged, suppressed/shut down by circumstance or choice. Again it does not matter – as the final outcome – is always destruction and evil ways.
It only matters in terms of whether or not early intervention, if any at all would make a difference on their choices and ways in life… such as is the protocol for so many personality disorders or diagnoses in this world.
Is there a way to teach compassion?
Is there a way to teach caring about others?
Is there a way to teach morals?
Is there a way to teach love?
Is there a way to teach healthy choices?
Is there a way to teach trust so as to understand what it is to be trustworthy?
I guess yes, but only to those who choose to want that. How do we know that ALL of them dont want to be taught or be given proper support or that they dont yearn to learn about how to fill ones soul and bring ones soul alive again or for the first time?
Im sure the answers are very simple. But I dont mind sharing that I struggle with the answers – either because of fearing them – The answers – being Evil lurking all around us – or shells so like walking death of bodies holding nothingness surrounding us – and there is no way to help them in the world – just step around them and let them hurt others who are unaware.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 9:14pm
autisticsouls says:
i know not. i have had feardom in me for some days. much warned i be so mine nurses daughter. be so her husband dangerous pretender. be so i tell her come here. mine aunt be killed by pretender. be so i smells this particular breed. no one listens to mad crazy autistics. always ignored. be so i say to her not to go to him. be so i smells the stench of the evil workings. what be the point? what be the point? why be so god allow mineself to come here if naught i can do naught to change anything?
be so last night mine nurses daughter be so killed. it would be on the news tonite. she was but 23 years old. and had a 22 month old daughter. be so he not come to mine space but i could not protect mine everyday peoples.
i could never protect mine everyday peoples.
i could never protect mine everyday peoples.
be so destroy them all. be so i plead god’s hand of judgement strike them all down. destroy them all. leave nothing behind. may any everyday people crying in their defense go with them. may the hand of god come down already.
i see things and can do nothing.
i hear things and can do nothing.
i know things and can do nothing.
i can never protect mine everyday peoples.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 9:42pm
learnthelesson says:
Des,
Im so sorry. That is so very sad and awful. Yes there are extreme violent and murderous dysfunctional criminal ones in this world.
You can protect yourself. Your children. Your husband and those that have the ability to listen to you and hear you and understand you.
You can enlighten others who CHOOSE to listen.
We can all bring awareness – and those who choose to protect themselves can and will.
You are here for a reason. Thank you for talking with me and giving me insight through your perspective and with your wisdom and gift of protecting me just a little bit more tonight.
-Learning The Lesson
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 10:01pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Des, years ago when I was doing hands-on healing work, my teacher said to me, you cannot force someone to heal. You can add energy, but they will do what they will do. We can’t know what is best for them.
You do what you do, with this great gift you have. You say what you know.
But it is not you who cannot protect them. It is they who are on their on paths.
This is hard, but it’s true.
Being gifted is a sometimes an awful burden. To see what you see can be a wonderful thing, when you can share the information and be heard, and it helps. But when you have to hold it alone, and watch a bad thing happen that could have been avoided, if they had listened, that is a terribly hard thing.
I’m sorry for what you must be feeling. Sorry for your nurse too. And the child. We grieve with you and send love.
We are all working on this. Together we will make a difference. I believe this.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 10:30pm
autisticsouls says:
http://www.wsvn.com/news/articles/local/MI143346/
they be so looking for him. mike and the others be so go to the morgue to identify the body.
i have no words.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:56pm
witsend says:
autisticsouls,
Des, so much of what you say is so very thought provoking for me to read. Tears streamed down my face when I read your first post to learnthelesson.
Much of what you have said was very cut and dried and very, very powerful. I am still trying to take much of it in. To absorb it. But it is very, very painful for me to absorb…….Because I am looking at this from a mothers perspective. I am still in a place where I have so many questions of this disorder.
It is one thing to experience the disorder in an adult and it is quite another to experience it in an adolescent.
And so, I ask myself many, many questions. I still struggle with the hows and the whys?
When it is your own flesh and blood you can’t help yourself.
One of the most profound things I have had to accept is that not only does my son not seem able to give love, he seems
unable to RECIEVE it. He doesn’t feel it when someone loves him. To me, that is very, very sad. Is that by choice? Or is it just “it is what it is.” Like alcoholism, or bipolar, or any number of things.
My son doesn’t live in reality. He has his own perception of his reality. He lies and he believes his own lies. He has grandious ideas and a grandious sence of himself and he believes that he IS what he percieves himself to be.
The thing is Del, he DOES believe HIS perception to be real and true. And he believes everyone elses perception is off.
Sometimes he will say something that actually scares me to death. Its not that what he says is threatening, I don’t mean that. (although he has said some threatening things)
But the things that really have scared me the most, its not so much what he actually said but the fact that he believes what he is saying.
And what I struggle with is the fact that his perception is what he percieves it to be. And although it is so way off, and so far from what IS real and true, he does live in this reality.
But I’m not sure if his reality is a choice or if it is all he has.
I am not making excuses for my son or anyone else with this disorder. Because everything that is “missing” in a person with this disorder they can create so much pain w/o ever blinking an eye. And much of what they do to create this pain seems to be by their own free will. So it is hard to feel compassion for this.
But I still can’t help but ask myself if it is because they can’t give something they don’t HAVE?
It does seem that they are very empty inside themselves with many of the things that we take for granted. The ability to love and feel compassion and empathy and make good choices.
But I have a hard time thinking that it is a choice to be this way. Any more than it is a choice to have any mental illness.
He is my son and I love him. But I also can not overlook what seems to be missing in him, the things that I wished he had. I also can’t overlook what I do see in him. The disturbing traits and the reality of what I do see.
And as his mother I can’t protect him or change him or help him. I can only accept this to the best of my ability. And I am trying to detatach from him in a way that a mother shouldn’t have to. Because this is a very painful road to travel.
I don’t so much try and understand it, as much as I used to. But some of it I have to try and understand, to be able to co exist with it, and grieve for my son. Because alot of grief is involved in the acceptance of this.
Del, I do believe that you are a gifted human being. And that is not an easy road to travel either. I wish that you knew my son and you could tell me what you see in him.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 12:06am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Witsend,
Somethings got to give….there has to be answers coming your way…or more guidance and direction and peace somehow along the way. No clue how what why when or where…but there will be answers. Perhaps not ones we like or maybe ones we toss around as possibilities..
Im a believer in that awareness brings change. For us and to them.
xoxo LTL
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 12:24am
learnthelesson says:
Des,
I, too, am speechless. My thoughts and prayers are with you and Mike.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 12:27am
Rosie says:
Thanks learnthelesson Aeylah and witsend.
Thanks to this site I have gone from being cut-up over him and his new gf being so bonded so soon…to being genuinely relieved he has a new woman to use.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 3:38am
autisticsouls says:
witsend, be so i must tell you that i be but human here mineself. mine words have wounded you for this i must carry the burden of causing you harm. i am but human and as such mine perceptions be tainted by what be happening about mineself. i can not walk this earth and not be affected by what be occuring. mine autism be a safety net but even thus much gets through and much impotence i feel to not prevent things from happening, still i be but no better as i have mineself caused you grief. mine perceptions be just some of our perceptions.
this be much like a description of an elephant being described by different peoples. one describes the trunk, another describes a foot, another describes the ear. be so this be all it is. i be so just one perception of what is, not the whole or the all. the whole and the all be what but puzzles we have to put together. be so i describe nothing more than a puzzle piece i be holding.
mine mike be so his hopes and mission to target children for intervention and drug stuff like nutritional therapies that have assisted many, be so just some omega can keep psychosis in line, be so his interests be how to supplement deficiencies in the brain. be so his perceptions be different. be so mine dolphin and some of the other children not so biased by their short time walking this earth. be so the weight of this place much heavier than i thought the longer i am here. some days i naught feel i can bear it.
be so mine words not be what is but simply is what is to mineself and some others. be so i be textured differently. be so there be different angels see? you see some like fluffy happiness bringing comfort and music, be so some others be but bringing messages, be some have a guardian mission and watch over us, be so some carry armor and swords to play out justice when commanded to.
be so mine husband a teacher, be so mine child a healer, be so i carry a sword.
be so i am a fighter more so than healer. be so what a warrior eyes sees much different than a healers eyes will see, and much different than a teacher who hopes to teach one something different. this be such, mine husband hopes to teach a weed to share and behave like a flower, be so mine child and others like her be so heals the weed to be so a open and loving weed wanting to not damage itself or others. be so mineself and others be but those who simply pulls out the weeds.
please know that i be also tempered by mine experiences here. mine aunt who cared for mineself been killed by pretender. mine nurses child which be so close to me been killed and found last night. i could naught do to prevent neither no matter how much i tried and could but wait until mine visions become reality. mine reality now be much tempered by much anger and rage. i be so intolerent and inflexible. be so i give you to mine child that she prays over you and your child. she has healing hands and will keep you both in them. be so your/her appeals be heard.
Know that i will see something, mine husband something else, mine child something else altogether. we just see fragments of the whole. not all of it. together we see something forming. be so i see the danger, be so another sees the potential, be so another sees hope for repair for what was damaged.
Des
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 9:21am
sabrina says:
Witsend said -not only is my son unable to give love, he seems unable to RECEIVE it..
Witsend, everything in your post resonates with me to a T. We have definately been on both sides of the coin. Having a son with this horrible disorder feels like a death sentence has been handed down to them-in the end ,a P only causes destruction and pain throughout their entire lives, and as a mother its horrifying beyond words to see it unravel.
My prayers are with all of us dealing with the aftermath of these destructive individuals. It is the evil that Jesus speaks about in Ephesians. I feel my son needs an exorcism to cast out the demons that live inside him.
Witsend, thank you for asking about me a few days ago-
I am getting along pretty well- my son is out of jail for the time being, just waiting for the next arrest-as another warrant is pending… I declared Wednesdays (my off day) as a “ME” day- I go to yoga class, and have committed to a womens bible study focused on healing and restoration. Both activities are food for the soul and body. I thank God that I have the opportunity and health to do these things.
Take care all of you, best to autisticsouls, I am sorry for what you all are going through.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 9:26am
sabrina says:
Steve- This has to be one of the BEST articles that I have read here. Thank you for your deligence and committment to this site!
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 9:44am
witsend says:
autisticsouls,
Des, PLEASE do not carry this burden for causing me harm. It is not your words that wounded me. It is my son that wounds me.
Bless you Des, as you have enough of a burden right now to carry. Do not carry this one.
All of what you had said is NOT something that I haven’t heard before.
What you said is clear and very precise, and for the most part, I have to agree with it, except the part about the choice. That is what I still question.
Is this a choice to have this disorder? I don’t think it is. Not is it is a disorder of the brain.
However that doesn’t mean that there is no responsibility for their actions. They do know right from wrong.
And it also doesn’t mean that we don’t want to protect ourselves and our familys from these disordered individuals.
I worry as a mother for those very people my son might encounter in his lifetime.
They can create alot of destruction and alot of pain. I know this already.
As Sabrina said in her above post. Not only is this like a death sentence for them. But for a mother this FEELS like a life sentence to witness this for the rest of your life. And not be able to do anything that is effective.
I can’t explain with words what it is like to not have a comfort zone with your own child.
We all speak here from our own experiences. You did nothing wrong by speaking of yours. Please know that.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:36am
autisticsouls says:
Please anyone in a dangerous relationship please get out!
http://www.justnews.com/news/22525356/detail.html
Man Charged In Girlfriend’s Death
Friend Finds Woman’s Body In Pool Of Blood
POSTED: Wednesday, February 10, 2010
UPDATED: 12:45 pm EST February 11, 2010
Alexander Ferra Bruzon
MIAMI — A suspect has been arrested after a woman’s body was found in a Miami home Wednesday afternoon.
Odalina Villafana, 23, was found dead by a friend inside a home in the 5900 block of Southwest Fifth Terrace just after 2 p.m. Miami police said Villafana was lying in a pool of blood, but they did not say how she was killed.
Police launched a search for Alexander Ferra Bruzon, 33, who was the woman’s boyfriend. Investigators said they believed Ferra Bruzon might be driving the woman’s car, a 1996-1997 gold Nissan Altima.
Ferra Bruzon was found in Tampa. He was charged with first-degree murder, police said.
Copyright 2010 by Post-Newsweek Stations. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 1:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sabrina,
((((hugs)))) and TOWANDA! for you taking care of yourself both physically and spiritually. We need to do that for sure!!!!
It’s been rough for me the past few weeks because I am working on the petition to the parole board (with an attorney) to KEEP my son in prison and NOT let him out on parole. It has been very triggering for me, but I am finally recovering my “steam” and plugging on. It will be a big relief to me if he gets another 5 years “set off” (he can’t even go to the parole board again for another 5 years) but that is the maximum time they can give him, he must be reviewed every 5 years. My attorney (THE best parole attorney in Texas) says that they CAN and MAY keep him in prison for his natural life, BUT what will actually happen is they may keep him until he becomes a medical cost liability to the state, at which time they will parole him so the state is not having to pay to get him medical care.
Medical care in prison is not great any way, but they do have to treat some things and especially if there is someone on the outside who is “on their case” about not giving him adequate care. In the past, that WAS ME, but now he has only my 80 yr old egg donor to support him and I’m not sure she is able to do so effectively. My son is only 39 now so even though his health has been neglected in the past, and diet etc is not the best (without outside money to buy vitamins, the inmates will actually get scurvy, which he has done a time or two) He has also had staph infections of the skin which broke out into boils because his diet was deficient in iron, which he has to buy iron supplements or they break out again, and even if he wants an asprin for a head ache, he must buy that and any other over-the-counter medication..Since he has severe nasal allergies (our family curse) he usually has a chronic sinus infection and head ache which OTC meds do not help much, if any. He did manage (with my help) a few years ago to get a severe (shoulder muscle) rotator cuff tear (suffered in a fight) surgically repaired, and needs surgery on an ankle and one wrist, also from fight injuries, but doubt at this time he will get those without me there to make noise.
I used to be constantly in a state of anxiety about his health, but now I don’t worry about that at all. Whatever happens to him is on him, and is the consequence he has to pay for taking a young woman’s life. Personally, I think a ball and chain gang or devil’s island is the best place for him, but even that won’t bring her back. So the best that I can do is to try to keep him in prison both for her sake, her family’s sake and my own safety.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 1:53pm
sabrina says:
Oxy, Hi darlin, Thanks for your support. I am sending you hugs and best wishes in reading that you are having to prepare for the parole hearing, and praying for peace for you with all the anxiety that must bring.
When you give the details of your sons incarceration,I can see the layers of emotional turmoil that you must have gone thru and have lived with for so many years. It is truly a mothers heart to continue to watch over the medical care of your son. I do understand your point of not living in anxiety about his health anymore, its a full time job of which I am seeing (with my son) is never ending. You have done all that you can without condoning or enabling,which I admire.
From what you have shared here, you have a strong faith that has helped you get thru the difficult times. I just encourage you to keep pressing on, and never give up on your hearts desires!
These days, I am identifying more and more with parents that are having their hearts ripped out from P children, but I refuse to give up, give in, or give out! xoxo
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 4:51pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sabrina,
“never give up?”—I didn’t give up for so long, and I DID enable him, that’s the worst part. I sent him money, I visited him (long distance) I BELIEVED him, I wanted to believe him, and even when I KNEW IN MY SOUL he was a monster, I kept hanging on to that FANTASY.
He was part of my life though he has not lived in my home (and only had one visit for a day) since 1989, 21 years, yet I kept him in my mind as a PART OF MY DAY, every day, as a part of my life, every day—he was HERE in my house that he has never even visited. He was REAL though he might as well have been a cyber affair with someone on the internet, and the son I loved was/is DEAD, gone, and he was animating the corpse like a zombie in some old B grade movie—walking, but no soul, talking but no soul….so it has been a long hard road but I no longer believe my son is alive, because he isn’t, that sweet little boy (I still have his early report cards and pictures) is gone—buried, grieved over, missed, but the ZOMBIE man is just another convict, and it would be a relief to me if someone would shank his sorry arse. Unfortunately, that is not in my hands, it is in God’s so I will accept whatever happens as what God’s will is…and trusting that is sometimes difficult…but maybe that is the lesson I need to learn. (((hugs)))) and God bless.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 5:01pm
autisticsouls says:
Oh Kathy, this is Mike, it’s too awful. everyone is falling apart,
she didn’t come home. we called the police j was going crazy. her mom, our nurse was so scared, j was climbing on walls. no answer. no where to know where she disappeared to. police wouldn’t look for her until 72 hours they said. said seeing things and bad feelings wasn’t enough to go on. we didn’t know where she was. j said he has her. he has her. he’s going to kill her. cops not taking her seriously. how does she know? oh she felt it. Right. they wouldn’t listen. j been on edge all week. we tried to keep her close. her mom not leaving her out of her sight. but she took off j told her not to go. j screamed something awful when she left. i couldn’t sleep, we pleaded with the cops, gave them her car tag number but they wouldn’t think of it until 72 hours. told us they were probably making up somewhere. we are so upset because we told the police to do something that we knew she was in danger, shouldn’t they have looked anyway? we just didn’t know where she was, he had her in her car. we could have stopped it if they had listened and put out an alert on her car, maybe. the time we all called the police she was still alive. she WAS STILL ALIVE. why couldn’t they have run the alert? we were frantic looking for her. then that was it. j gets real quiet looks out the window and says she’s gone. nothing is going to hurt her nomore. i was just so sick inside because i knew it too. i knew she was gone. i knew it was too late. oh god it hit the news before the police even told her mother. oh god we couldn’t save her. j put her head through the wall. went through the sheet rock to the stud. again and again. i can’t even patch the wall it has to be replaced. the grandmother had a heart attack. our nurse is beyond consolation. i wasn’t here when j posted. i had to be with the family. i think i could see it all sink in to her. i was so mad because she’s like she’s safe now, it’s not like we’re never going to see her again. I was grilling her about how it’s not about how O’s in a better place, or that she’s free and not afraid anymore or that someday we’ll all see her again. it’s a child being raised with a murdered mother by her father’s hand. it’s picking up all the pieces left behind. it’s parents losing their only child in the most horrific way. it’s them and a child being in THIS world without her. it’s the mess and pain in THIS world without her for her family. no one in THIS world really cares about how much better it is somewhere else, we just see the pain and hell that this one can be. i just didn’t want her chirping about being in a better place. this is now and it’s horrific. i feel so awful because she just snapped. i pushed her too hard. i know i did. she can’t handle this. she still sets the table for her aunt, dammit. why did i have to be so harsh? oh shit how are we going to all come throw this? our nurse, her family, they were family. i don’t know if they are going to recover. i don’t know it. j seems to finally absorb the whole loss of it all. j blames herself now. couldn’t save her aunt and now again couldn’t save O. shit. oh shit. all day i was just sleep walking. helping making funeral arrangements. just organizing and putting things in order. picking out flower arrangements and being my orderly self. but then it hit’s me again who i’m making the arrangements for. and i just feel like shit to be picking out color coordinated flowers to match stuff like THE room. and how an open casket is impossible because who would want to see her LIKE that. i mean how are they going to fix her? she’s like a broken rag doll now. why do people put up brightly colored flowers around anyway? flowers for valentines day and for funferals i don’t get it. like pretty stuff around a sad event? i don’t know, but pick and lavender does clash with the room really, should i tell folks white only?. i wonder what O would have picked? what sort of casket? gold engrained wood or painted white? everything in her favorite color maybe? what was it even? i never asked. our nurse just looks blankly at nothing, slumped and broken. she seems to have shrunk. she was a strong woman but she’s all shrinking into herself, so tiny and pale. what 23 year old plans out her casket, anyway? or even thinks about her funeral arrangments? it’s not like her room. oh shit. i just don’t know why i’m getting stuck on senseless details. i just don’t know what else to do. j’s forehead is okay though. i wish i knew why he did it. why. he didn’t love her, just wanted to control her. siad she was his to do what he pleased. he says when it’s over…. he was happy she would never start her life without him. that he won… WTF?……Why couldn’t he just move on to someone else like the rest of them? i’ll never understand it.
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 9:34pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Mike, you’re in grief. Bad, bad first-stage grief. And you’re sleepwalking through it, getting done what needs to get done. But you’re still dealing with a big, whacking trauma.
J is in pain. O’s family is in pain. In situations like this, family groups go through a lot of wave forms. Because all the individuals are cycling through different emotions. Anger. Sadness. Shock. And one of those emotions is survivor’s guilt, which is really complicated, because it shifts the focus from the loss of a loved one to feeling bad about yourself.
So that’s what you’re dealing with, separately and together. J’s dealing with PTSD. You know this. You can help her a bit by grounding her gently in the here-and-now. Yes she saw it and all of you tried to stop it. But this really was out of your hands. What is in her hands right now is your household, your child and your need for someone to help you through this. Yes, she’s a warrior, but she also has access to higher level processing, and you can tell her you need comfort. (Because you do.) Asking her to help guide you will help her.
O’s mother is in shock. She’s going to be really emotional when she comes out of it. And probably not particularly logical or rational. That’s okay; it’s normal. For now, give her something to wrap herself with, even if it’s too warm to need anything but a sheet. She’ll feel better if she can get “close in” to something. If you can get her down on the couch, where she can huddle up, that would be good. Bring her some tea, with something like whiskey in it, if you’ve got some. Unless she’s already taking a sedative. The best thing for her right now is sleep. If she wants to talk, just sit with her. Be with her, and let her know you know how she feels. That’s enough right now.
I know that all of this looks like non-stop destruction, but I’m telling you, as J will tell you when she can access her wisdom again, that nothing happens without a reason. O went to her destiny for some reason. The changes to everyone’s lives will not be all bad, just different. And that is not to diminish the work everyone faces in grieving through this. But something will be created out of this, and your assumptions that it will all be bad are not correct. You have to learn to trust the process, because if all you feel is fear and anger, your emotions will affect it.
I’m not telling not to feel what you feel. But I am telling you to transform it as soon as you can to positive intentions and actions. That’s what your life is about. You know that. You transform adversity into positive movement. You believe in the power of positive, caring action. And that is, ultimately, what you will do with this loss.
Now, just breathe. Please. I know this is awful, a tragic and chaotic time. But all the rest of you are alive and you love each other. Supporting each other is what’s important now. And that includes you. Don’t be a superman. Ask for help and comfort.
Again, this was out of your hands. It doesn’t matter who did what — O, the police, the man who killed her — it was out of your hands. Now, go start spreading kindness, and try not to worry. The wheels of the universe are turning, and the most important thing you can do now is love each other.
Kathy
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:12pm
ErinBrock says:
Mike and Des,
My heart goes out to you in this most horrible situation.
I admire your courage and strength within all the adversity.
Kathleen is offering solid recommendations……turn evil into positive, this is when we as people make the most difference!
Please, take care of the three of you, love each other and provide comfort to all involved……but mostly….take care of you….because if you are not okay……you will not be able to offer yourself to others…..
Try and get some sleep…..
I’m so very sorry!
XXOO
EB
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:37pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Mike, does that help?
I’m trying to organize the emotional patterns for you, so you can see through it. Even while you’re living through it.
Sometimes you have to be in two places. Living through things. But also seeing it from a distance. Because when everyone’s feelings are so raw and big — especially for you and J, who surely are not good at dealing with this kind of noise — you have to know that it’s all okay. To feel that way. It’s just part of a normal human process.
And knowing that it’s okay can be a big help.
What I didn’t say is that I’m so sorry. Sorry it happened. Sorry you’re going through this. I wish I could be there to wrap you all up in caring. So you could just rest.
That’s what I’m sending you. And I know that many people here will be doing the same when they read your letter. However complicated and painful it is right now, it will get better for all of you. Time is on your side.
Kathy
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 10:41pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
I made a valentine’s card – a place where we can write love: http://lfvalentinescard.blogspot.com/
please spread the word.
best,
one step
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 11:23pm
anitasee says:
Hello all, Talk about a classic example of impurturbability. And thanks to Erin B and Oxy et al for your recent comments and support.
My soul searching in the previous post was about walking away from the drama, the movie, the nonsense, taking my lumps and holding my head high. Of protecting myself from further harm, and going the slow but sure, live frugally and carefully kind of perspective. So I was ready to sign off on a bunch of stuff with the P…then what arrived at my doorstep but the copy of his computer hard drive, that I managed to have seized 7 months ago, and he has been preventing me from seeing ever since.
And, as I KNEW,( because he can’t help himself,) there are the spread sheets, the charts and tables spelling it all out, right down to the cost of the cleaning lady, giving me 9.6 million good reasons to hang in there and fight.
The point being, how f’ing unflappable is that? He knew what was in there,( the computer) and all this time has shown complete indifference, go ahead, there is nothing in there blah blah blah…I had almost lost interest myself he was so convincing.
But to the courts, his demeanor has been VERY effective.
That is how these creatures prevail.
Most of us look for signs of guilt, or contrition, or nerves, when we are sizing someone up in a challenging situation. The P always has a HUGE advantage, because we measure them from our perspective and emotional base.
They are unfathomable. They literally do not make sense to most of us. It reminds me of the point in maybe Martha Stouts book or the Good Canadian Dr. whose name escapes me presently….but the point was that SPN’s and or liars ALWAYS have an advantage, because we- the observers or judges, are so conditioned to always look for “the other side of the story” and we are conditioned to give both sides equal merit and weight. And that is where they have us…once we give the lies equal weight as the truth, the truth has been comprimised…and so it goes…until they have it all and control it all….and then the truth has to stand up and be heard and celebrated until the cycle begins again. I guess what it comes down to is constant vigilance is necessary to protect our truth..because lies are very cheap and can be very powerful.
And welcome Des and sorry for all you are going through. Be some very wise things you have shared with us.
Peace to all,
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Saturday, 13 February 2010 @ 11:23pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
to let everyone know – i made a ‘valentine’s card’ for us @
http://lfvalentinescard.blogspot.com
anything you want to post, just send it through to me at the email listed there.
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Saturday, 13 February 2010 @ 11:38pm
midlifecrisis says:
Anita – what do you think is in those spreadsheets? Why was it cheeky of him not to be worried or embarrassed??? Have you found something or do you just ‘know’ something is in there?
All the best for sifting through the evidence!
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Sunday, 14 February 2010 @ 2:38am
ErinBrock says:
Anita:
Ahhhhhhh……I sense a rejuvination coming over you!
YES!!!!
You go girl……go through each and every part of that computer…..take note of everything…….even if it doesn’t make sense now…..it will later….I ASURE YOU!
Get to coscto and stock up on printer ink….and print everything……put it in piles, separated and then into binders….or files.
I think I ended up going through 6 costco packs of ink…..YIKES!
there was so much paperwork……It was easier to print at home.
DON”T GIVE UP……
You’ve found your second wind…….
I found whatever he did or said……I reversed it…..that turned out to be the truth.
It’s very telling……if they are not worried…..oh YES they are!
They’d never tell us…..NEVER!!!
So…..look at his behaviors…..look at your documentation…..look at the situation…..
AND DRAG OUT THE INNER SOCIOPATH IN YOU AND FIGHT!!!!!
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Sunday, 14 February 2010 @ 2:50am
ICthruhim says:
This article really struck a chord with me. My ex-SP seemed totally unaffected when I caught him in lies and confronted him. Now I know its because it was no big deal what I thought of him, since he didn’t take me or anyone else seriously. One night, he convinced me he was dying. He was laying in the bed, having me bring him food. He told me he had just been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. It was all very dramatic, – he was very dramatic, crying- the whole bit. I started crying and couldn’t stop. The reality was that he was drunk and I told him he couldn’t come home drunk anymore – so he had to find a way around that. The next day, my eyes were almost swollen shut. He asked me what heppened to my eyes and I confronted him. At first he denied it, saying “I don’t think I would say that”. Then he didn’t even bother trying to deny – his attitude was just “so what?” Turns out there was nothing wrong with him, and he basically told me to “get over it” because I was appalled that he would lie about dying.
To this day, the only time he showed signs of really being peturbed was when they read the guilty verdict and he was rightfully convicted for assaulting my 12 yr old son. But right up until they said “guilty as charged” he still looked completely cocky and not the least bit worried. However, his demeanor changed when he realized his consequences were inescapable and for once in his life he wasn’t going to “get away with it”!
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Sunday, 14 February 2010 @ 10:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear IC,
Glad you are back here, what was the sentence for him for assaulting your son? I hope it was “life without parole” LOL
Yea, they can LIE LIKE A RUG AND NOT BE THE LEAST BIT UPSET just because you catch them. They think they can lie their way out of a lie with another one—”get over it” Yea, we WILL get over it but they will NEVER CHANGE!
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Sunday, 14 February 2010 @ 11:56pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
ICthruhim – mine fake died.
charming.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 12:04am
geminigirl says:
One step darling girl, Dont let this freak go on living rent free in your head! you are worth so much more! You know we all love you!
{HUGS} MamaGem.XX
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 1:49am
one_step_at_a_time says:
gem – like that you call her a ‘freak’. it’s such a good descriptor.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 1:54am
one_step_at_a_time says:
okay, i am off to bed. tink I can sleep now. it’s been a bit of a rough night.
night night gem, have a good day
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 1:57am
geminigirl says:
You too, darling! tomorrow will be better. love, mamaGem.XX
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 2:28am
geminigirl says:
Hey, one step, this may help you to see the freak in her true colours. Just imagine her in a Victorian Freak show, -you know the kind of thing, the mermaid, the bearded lady, the smallest man in the world, kind of thing. See her in a glass case, labelled.”Freak show, this wierd specimen can change its sex at will! Silver coin donation! havea good laugh!” I almost guarantee this will help you see her in her true colours, a sad, lonely sick freak. Why waste any more brain cells on her? Now, I want you to STOP thinking bout her.OK? Enough already.! Shes taking up space in your head!Love, gem.XXsave your precious energy for getting WELL!!!
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 2:44am
one_step_at_a_time says:
gem – i have a very good connection to old tyme circus. i like that side show freak idea, but not because she can change sex at will, that actually doesn’t disturb me. her supposed gender lability as a fake boy was one of the things i liked about her.
what does disturb me is that she uses anything and everything to use people. she is a freak because she is contemptuous of loving humanity, lacks conscience and anything that can be recognized as a moral compass.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 6:18am
Cat says:
Mike and D, I just read what happened and my heart and soul go out to you. We don’t know one anther, but I’m sending you healing prayers and hugs. PLEASE listen to Kathy. Read and re-read what she’s written. She’s wonderful and has helped me through some crucial moments.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 7:25am
one_step_at_a_time says:
PTSD LINK: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health.....ndex.shtml
I also searched ‘PTSD archive’ once i was on the site and came up with reams of material.
Belleruth Naperstek has a beautiful CD for PTSD
http://belleruthnaparstek.com/
And I found a series of interviews with her on youtube (don’t mind the interviewer (rolls eyes))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PgmATF2suE
a shoult out ty to the stoopid mugger who has propelled me, to yet fucking again learn something.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 8:02am
Cat says:
one-step,
Thank you for the links! I just went to the first one and there is much to read there. Going to check out the others as well.
Yes, thanks to them, we are propelled into a new world that’s full of new lessons, but I would rather be learning than living like I once was! And I’m rather liking what I’m learning these days. Your valentine was wonderful-thank you so much!
Paper trails-have plenty of them and like you, EB, I’ve gone through tons of cartridges but it’s the only way to have as complete a set of documents as possible. The ONLY thing my ex spath is worth is the money I’m spending on ink and paper. I’m thinking my printer is going to give up on me soon as I’ve worn it out.
IC-what IS it with them and this ability to act out insane things like having cancer? It’s such a serious issue and many of us have faced the real thing and yet, they think nothing of having ‘fake’ diseases. Mine did the same; whenever things were at a head and he knew it was close to him going, he would have some king of medical emergency that required him being taken to the hospital by ambulance(can we have a little more drama here?) and of course they always obliged because he’s very diabetic and uses that as an excuse to get pity and attention. It was like he was saying, “You can’t kick out a sick man, now can you?” At the end, he pulled this stunt a couple of times and I sent him off in the ambulance and then stayed home. I didn’t visit him or even take his calls for a day or two. I had peace and I liked it! I was on to him and he knew it. Oh, I so do NOT miss those days! I don’t know what he did to your son, but I’m so sorry that had to happen to a child. I have a son who is 10 and he’s very precious to me. Whatever he did, I hope he got life, as Ox suggested..
The ONLY time I saw my ex nervous was when he stood before the judge waiting for sentencing. He cried like a baby. The judge saw through that, however, and sentenced him anyways. BUT, up until that point, he was as calm as could be. AND he always ended up in jail because someone else did it to him. He has never taken responsibility for his own actions.
So, what else is knew…Sigh…
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 8:37am
one_step_at_a_time says:
More PTSD RESOURCE – on belleruth’s website there is a ‘research’ link.
you’re welcome cat – i can’t wait to wade through some of this.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 8:44am
Cat says:
one step, i saw that. i can’t wait to wade through some of it myself. hey, at least we’re in the solution and farther and farther away from the problem every day!
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 10:19am
one_step_at_a_time says:
cat – i sighed relief when i read your post. it’s true. for this moment it is true.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 10:36am
ICthruhim says:
Cat and Ox, I wish he was sentenced for life. It would save so many future victims. He choked my son – for missing the school bus! Thank God I was there and pulled him off my son. With everything else I had put up, I knew at that moment our marriage was over. He was arrogant and cocky from the time leading up to the trial, and at the trial – until the verdict was read. They sentenced him to 3 years 9 months. However, I just found out that he will be out 6 months earlier than I had expected because he gets 1 day credit for every 6 days served!!!!
This is funny, this is actually the latest thing he pulled from prison. My 18 year old daughter received a letter from an inmate in the same prison complex. He wrote stating a “friend” gave him her address and said maybe she would be interested in getting to know him! Exactly what I would want – someone setting up my daughter with a convicted felon!!! Its just his insidious way of messing with me even in there.
Cat, isn’t it funny how they can use tears, illness, and other drama when they know you’re getting wise to them??
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 1:18pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
IC – is there anything that you can do to have him kept in longer? and is there anyone who you can report the letter to your daughter to? that’s heinous.
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 2:04pm
ICthruhim says:
One step, I wish there was – but the legal system is what it is. I am lucky he got convicted with prison time – they were trying to negotiate probation which would have been a complete joke.
As far as my daughter, I don’t think there is anything I can do to actually “prove” he did it. The inmate does not say who his friend is that gave him the address. Of course I know its him.
At one point, he was transferred to a jail for another legal proceeding. As soon as he had the opportunity, he started calling me violating a Order of protection. I had the police come out twice and filed reports. As far as know, they did nothing with it – DA must have figured he’s already in prison – so whats the big deal. I wanted new charges filed!!
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 4:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear IC,
Ohhhhhhh, Yea!!!! How so like my P-son your x is. I am glad that he got ANY time really, and maybe you can at least get a restraining or no contact order—also, when he gets out he will be on probation (I hope) so if so, I suggest that you contact the office of the victim’s advocate for your state, NOW, and in my state they will keep you updated on when they change status, get out, etc. and who the parole officer is.
Save that letter, it may not be “proof” since the other inmate doesn’t say who the “friend” is, but I suggest that you contact the warden or the head of the institution he is in and send him a copy of that letter and a short explaination of what it is, and some HEAT should fall on the inmate that sent the letter, and he will then be PITHED off at your X. Your X will GLOAT, but at least you are letting him know that you are NOT LYING DOWN and cowering from hiim.
I also suggest that you do whatever you can to protect your daughter from harm. It would be like your X to send someone after her to harass her. I don’t mean to make you “paranoid” but JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE PARANOID DOESN’T MEAN SOMEONE IS NOT OUT TO GET YOU.
I’ve dealt with the prison system long enough by now that I’m kinda getting to know the ropes. I do know a bit about how to cause grief for an inmate or parolee. I got the Trojan Horse P’s parole delayed from May to December and so that was better than nothing. I dropped the ball during the time he and my DIL were in jail awaiting a plea bargain, I had too much on my plate to stay on top of it, but now, I am getting back my old moxie and am full bore ahead with blocking my P-son’s parole, hired an attorney to help me, THE BEST at that in the state of Texas—worth every cent I think! I’d sell blood or plasma if I had to, or a kidney, to get the money and still think it was CHEAP!
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Monday, 15 February 2010 @ 4:28pm
Cat says:
Dearest IC,
He thought he could get just probation for that? Clearly, your ex is a person who has poor self-control and anger issues and to take it out on a child is absolutely heinous! I never hear a story of a child being hurt without getting so angry about it! It’s unacceptable in my book and I know it happens all the time, but that doesn’t make it right nor will it ever be. I know the laws to a small degree and have found they do NOT support the victim as they should. Often, I am finding, the laws are more in favor of the perpetrator. It’s not right, it’s not fair, but that’s how it is. If OX (go OX!) could get the delay, then perhaps so could you as well. I readily admit I don’t know the prison system, but I do know that the victim’s advocate that helped me was the ONE person I came to trust in the justice system. She has just helped me recently, but that’s another story.
I am concerned for your daughter, as are you and as Ox said, I would suggest contacting the state’s victim’s advocate. I think you have a very strong case here. Definitely a restraining order would work here. Sending you courage, energy and spitfire!! on this.
Yes, they do get the most amazing diseases and medical conditions at the most convenient times, don’t they? Mine did that even when I just walked away from it all. Of course, those around him who didn’t know him thought I was mean and cruel. AFTER they discovered what he was really about, they didn’t care either.
Ox, wish I could help you with the kidney! I get where you’re coming from. It takes a lot of energy, time and money to deal with them BUT I believe it does pay off in the end, even if that ending is simply knowing that you’ve done your best at the end of the day.
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Tuesday, 16 February 2010 @ 11:42am
OxDrover says:
Dear Cat, Ah yes, they sure do “get diseases” to try to suck pity from us. I let a woman “victim” who was living in her little tiny truck/rv come here and park safely til she could get back to work and get a place of her own….well, she apparently decideed she liked it here, and living in her RV was okay for the time but she planned on moving in, and did NOT plan on getting a job, so I eventually told her she had to move on since being here was obviously NOT assisting her to move up in the world.
She immediately told me she thought she had breast cancer, and even though I had offered to get her to the free clinic here SEVERAL times, she had refused to go, and ditto with the one free dental clinic I know about (and that day after I told her she had to leave) she told me she had had a tooth ache jfor weeks. I asked her, “didn’t I offer to take you to the dentist?” She said, “Yes, but you were always so busy” (so it was my fault!)
She then actually whipped out one of her boobs and showed me an inverted nipple (which can but is NOT ALWAYS a sign of cancer, it is mostly if one CHANGES from outtie to innie that it MIGHT be a sign) as her proof she might have cancer. I replied very calmly, “If you go to X hospital you can get a free mammogram and I would advise you to go.”
I swear, they can come up with some of the most outrageous things to try to get people to pity them. It only works though IF WE ALLOW IT. My P-son worked me over for all the “pity” I have left so from now on, I will be careful where I bestow “pity” or “compassion” to those that REALLY have something wrong with them besides a PERSONALITY DISORDER and a propensity to LIE. LOL
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Tuesday, 16 February 2010 @ 11:56am
Cat says:
one-step,
one day at a time, we move farther into healing and farther away from the source of our pain and in doing that, we grow stronger. hugs!
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Tuesday, 16 February 2010 @ 11:58am
Cat says:
Dear Ox,
As opposed to those with FAKE diseases, my son’s school called yesterday and I had to pick him up and today we’re seeing the doctor, which is why I didn’t respond to your post when I wanted to.
Oh, this must have been your “visitor” who wouldn’t leave and why of course, she would whip out the old breast and show you that! Honestly, I had to smile when I read that. (I’m extremely visual.) It’s an example of the lengths they will go to to get what they want. It’s a dead give away when they don’t take up the offer of FREE exams and treatment that there is nothing really wrong and it’s all just a hoax.
In my case, after 2 shoulder surgeries, mine started whining about the possibility of a third one just before he got the boot here. He developed all kinds of aches and pains, spasms, etc.. I watched him go through fake stomach episodes, chest pains, the list goes on and on.
It does rather incense me that when my ex spath did this stuff, he took up valuable space, time and personnel in emergency rooms that could have been better used by those who really needed care. Of course, the hospitals started catching on awhile ago.
I quit being phased by his “illnesses” a long time ago. It’s all an act. Even when he put himself into a mental facility, for rehab AGAIN, I didn’t buy that. I think they sense it’s coming to an end and they’re going to go and this is just another way of them to get what they want, a place to live and do nothing.
I’m just so glad that’s out of my life! I can devote my energy now to myself and my son who really IS sick.
Still visualizing
Cat
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 7:38am
one_step_at_a_time says:
tis a cold and snowy day. i am sick and angered by these beasts
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:54am
Rosa says:
“I could have a heart attack!” was the line and health condition of choice for my ex, whenever he needed a little sympathy and all eyes on him.
This infuriated me, because there are so many people who actually ARE suffering with serious health conditions.
Thankfully, the “heart attack” never materialized, as far as I know.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 10:48am
Matt says:
Rosa:
My S-ex’s threat/promise of choice was “I have high blood pressure. I’ll end up having a stroke like my mother.”
Initially I felt sorry for him. By the end all I used to think was “Good. Have one. Then I’m going to go to nursing school and become your nurse. And I will jab that fucking needle in 10 times a day.”
What a waste of resources — mine, society’s, the planet’s. That oxygen thief was a total waste of resources.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 10:55am
one_step_at_a_time says:
mine: 3 major illnesses, 2 open heart surgeries, died in the middle of whatever the fuck the last one was………..ALLLL FAKKKKEEEDDD. fuck i hate her guts.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 11:07am
one_step_at_a_time says:
‘dangerous and necessary’ cross continent air lift, mental break downs, suicide attempts…….fuck i hate her guts.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 11:08am
one_step_at_a_time says:
took just a little mugging and a note from someone about who else she’s fucking over right now to ‘help me access my anger’.
we may never get it back in the box. and good. this skeezey horror show deserves to have her hands chopped off and her tongue severed…then we could say; go, and sin no more.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 11:10am
one_step_at_a_time says:
I am right over the moon fucking angry. This fucking woman – she goes on and one doing the same shit, with impunity. I have had the honour of hearing others stories in the the last weeks – here and and in connections with the spat I tangled with. Dios.
And every story that ‘scorches’ me, makes me more and more certain that I have to out her. She cannot play on- hurting people like she were just taking the skins off of grapes and not people’s souls. What a ‘lying sack of evil she is. All the things she accused others of….the evil man who locked her in small spaces and starved her and raped her – all lies, stories STOLEN from the pain of other’s lives. STOLEN> STOLEN> or worse yet, are they all projections of things she has done?
It is only through accessing the pain of others’ stories that I am really accessing mine – no one in the day to day world wants to know of my pain, and I have to work and try to stay housed…..only here can I show this face. This face is now homicidally angry. I would fucking kill her if I had a chance. NO bitch, you don’t WIN!
She keeps rolling, more and more. I can help a few I know of, but after that….what can i do? She will continue to move on to another website, ‘cause it makes it all so much easier to pull her scams on the net.
I find myself censoring myself – even here. The bain of the internet, of writing things down, of speaking them out – judgment. Judicial or otherwise.
I want to dog her till the day I die.
And I want a completely different life that doesn’t involve her – but if it must, may she suffer the inconveniences of losing her internet connection – often, her telephone connection daily.
ROWWWWRRRR.I FUCKING HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 11:44am
witsend says:
One Step….
Take a Deeeeep Breath. Release. Again….That is the same thing we do with anger. It arises and we release it. We let it out.
There might come a time when you do decide to “out” her. But right at THIS moment you need to direct your energy for yourself. Because it will take alot of energy and time to formulate a plan, if that is what you decide to do.
First WIN yourself back. A bigger and better, and healthier, One Step.
Think of THAT as getting one over her. Remember one step at a time….First things first. You come first.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 12:33pm
slimone says:
Onestep,
I am amazed at your capacity to connect with this anger and outrage. And I believe it is a really good thing. And I hear how much you want to DO something, direct and clear, with this anger.
I have been there. And I have taken covert, but none-the-less clear and direct action myself. I took the opportunity to deliver a wounding blow. And it did have an impact. As far as I know, and as much as I am willing to ‘track’ this individual to protect my heart/life.
But given that, what I did MORE of with my disgust and outrage, was exercise, walk, dance, sweat, pound, lift weights. MOVE the energy OUT. If you are so motivated and able I found movement was extremely helpful in processing anger and angst. So that it had less effect on my sleep, my overall health.
If you ever want to know what I chose to do by way of sabotage, and warning others’, ask Donna for my email, and we can talk off site.
Slim
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 1:01pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
slim – i am and i will.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 1:54pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
witty – i thank you for your care and wisdom.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 1:55pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
and witty – i have been formulating a plan for months. i used my obsessive thinking time to hone it.
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 2:17pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Steve: This article has spoken to me more loudly than any other on lf – do you have any plans to expand on it?
best,
one step
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 7:50pm
autisticsouls says:
Hello everyone just catching up to posts, I’m so far behind, this is Mike
Kathy thank you so much for helping me through this week. i really felt you here along with us. Des has been a little shut off and i guess i can understand that. thank you erin and cat and ltl, somehow something good must come of this, if anything can.
there will be no chance of parole and in florida they are seeking the death penalty…
i don’t know how i feel about that since i’m morally against capital punishment, two wrongs don’t make a right. Murder is wrong and planning on someone to die is premeditated murder in my book. i just can’t reconcile the whole of it. considering that throughout this des is going all old testament on me on this topic. (we’re jews, but i always liked jesus, and we aren’t really religious although we follow the traditions somewhat) Des, in great contrast to me, seems more inclined to an old fashioned stoning. i would hope she would be joking, but she doesn’t joke, so she’s not.
the investigators told us all that they would be seeking the death penalty which left me uneasy. i mean just lock him away from life never to live amongst society ever again, but death penalty? i asked Des you really okay with that? to which she answered “be so i’ll bring the popcorn.” which threw me off some because she wasn’t kidding on that either.
i guess it’s harder for her. she is not so accessable to people, she has a limited number of folks she cares deeply about and allows within reach and they seem to drop like flies around her lately. which is an exageration but having two caregivers brought down by murder I guess it is difficult to not be affected. not to mention we need a new nurse for a bit. so our routine is all off. Autistics and their routine. it’s near sacred.
but i’m fooling myself though, des has always had a extreme outlook on them (pretenders), murders or not. things were always black and white to her, all or nothing. right and wrong, good and evil.. very little grey areas. she did not enjoy tv programs like Lost or Battlestar Galactica because of how the characters would be seen in different lights, everyone has done things they are not proud of, or have given into frialties, at some point or another or have risen to the occasion to somehow redeem themselves… it’s the whole human experience…
not that this situation is anything more than simply horrific, the murder was planned, the room decorated as in a early Valentines gift filled with flowers and wine and candles made up like a funeral… a St. Valentine’s funeral. ‘O’ knew she would die in that room, he had psychologically tortured her this way as well as physically tortured her, and yet if we have the means to lock such a person away for life, where the rest of society will be safe and his freedom taken away for life… isn’t that enough?
i can not reconcile the death penalty concept, i feel i can not be responsible for another human’s life to be taken. des reminds me of the story of amalek (talk about getting all old testament on me, i wasn’t kidding)
The story goes about the nation of Amalek, Amalek, the tribe that attacked the Israelites from the back as they traveled across the desert. Amalek is considered to be the paradigm of evil, the archenemy of the Jewish people… That the nation of Israel is commanded to eradicate in Deut. 25:17-19… Amalek’s entire existence is based on the non-existent. Therefore, we are to treat Amalek as they believe: we treat them as if they are a freak of nature, an anomaly never intended to exist, and therefore, under the laws of nature, subject to destruction, relegated to the realm of nothingness. That not even the memory of the nation of Amalek should exist…
Which is really extreme to me. but i wonder if des really feels that way and if so to how much of an extent? is she talking out of pain? or do i need to hire a body guard to keep her in line? is it me taking things too asperger syndrome literal?
It was some time after her aunt was killed by some pretender that another pretender was brought to our home by Des’s sister, her boyfriend. he didn’t do anything. Okay, so it turned out that he wasn’t who he said he was, and we later found out he was guilty of mortgage fraud and was recently arrested for loan modification fraud, and perhaps other stuff he was into that he didn’t want to be hashed out so he never pressed charges… But Des just went at him, if i didn’t get in the way i don’t know what would have happened to him. she still got to him though with such ferocity i can’t even describe now. it spooked him/me something awful.
Now no one is allowed into our home until she meets them first outside and checks them out with a thorough sniff down. no kidding.. think bloodhound sniffing up your butt. she does this. except with her sister’s ex and that domestic violence Killer guy it was a quick reaction, best described as like ‘hate’ at first sight, she went off the deep end, eye’s wild, growling and hissing. that Killer guy wasn’t in her territory so she never had a go at him. she’d known he was dangerous. knew it but he moved away from her and she stepped back from him, breathing heavy, nostrils flaring. but each eyeing each other warily like any moment they were going to throwdown. i had to tug at her and shove her into the car because any sudden move he made and i knew she wouldn’t hold back. Our nurse was so spooked, eyes wide and shaken by Des’s reaction to him, she had backed up from him staring at him like she was seeing him for the first time. I apologized for Des but she said no, she was okay with Des.
He hadn’t been afraid of her really just seemed undecided to either challenge her outright or to back off. you could have cut the tension and hatred between them with a knife the air was so thick. he stopped playing at being friendly then. and just changed his demeanor completely towards everyone…
i have to wonder though, and am having her go to a therapist to talk to her about stuff because it’s like i’m wondering how safe is she going to be if she truly feels the nation of amalek must be destroyed? i don’t take the bible literally and just wonder whether she does now?
I’m just hoping she moves past this. thinks of us as a family that needs her. and comes back to us. Leave Amalek to G-d to deal with. i just need my wife and our child needs her mother. we’ll be safe. she can keep US safe. she knows them. that is certain. she can smell them out. but she mustn’t go after them. let the florida justice system take care of him/them. show me which children carry the trait so we can work vigilantly to turn it around and save them from that inclination. let’s live and bring good to the world. don’t let them taint us. Don’t let them make us ugly. Don’t proclaim war on them. we can’t win that way.
As a precaution i put signs out on our door, “forget the dog, worry about the owner.” “no trespassing”. and “tresspasser’s will be shot” (although we have no arms) and a hand written one stating by des, “No pretenders allowed. Seek not to enter here, Be so you suffer the dire consequences if you so overlook this rule…”
i just think (and hope) that it’s been a horrific week and it will take time to get back to ‘our’ normal…
Mike
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:05pm
slimone says:
Onestep, Looking forward to connecting with you….Slim
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:12pm
ErinBrock says:
Mike:
“i asked Des you really okay with that? to which she answered “be so i’ll bring the popcorn.”
As sad as it is to admit…..I laughed out loud with her bluntness! I’m sorry Mike…but I’m with Des on this one.
When it comes to murder and crimes against children…..let me at em!
I understand peoples quandry about the death penalty, and this isn’t the forum to get too deep with it….
I look at it two fold….and I am not religious, so that is out of the equation.
1. financially. WHY do we have to pay to keep them in medical care, housed and fed along with cable tv and internet and all the perks they get in prison? (So many on the ‘outside’ are not afforded these luxuries)
2. If criminals knew ‘we’ meant business…..they may think twice about commiting the crimes…..if not…they know they are going to die.
I also think our death penalty should be ‘updated’…..like in Iraq…..when convicted….get rid of em quick.
I say….shoot em dead when they are seen commiting the crimes….right there, boom! No costly trial, the families can move on in thier grief and not be subjected to their loved one being TORN apart in the trial etc…
So…..yeah….my views are harsh…..but look at the crimes we all live around every single day!!!
Keep it together Mike….my heart is with you. Your a brick!
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:26pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Slim – have emailed Donna.
one step
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:33pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – well, you might enjoy some of my rant today further up thread
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 9:43pm
hedidntbreakme says:
great article. I’ve been NC for 6 mos now. Still trying to heal from the emotional abuse, self esteem and I am getting there,
this A@@ finacially, emotionally, sick sex, anything bad, you name it he did it. WITHOUT ANY REMORSE! 3 years of it.
Oh and did i mention, finacially f@@Ked me to the tune of over $30,000 with bills he still owes! NC 6 mos.
i guess he wants my last $16 i have in the bank and wild sexcapade night with me and then kick me back to curb.
I am much stronger than that and IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN! My shield is GOD and NO CONTACT!
well, anyhow, his mom tried to befriend me on facebook, i rejected the request and calls me at work, i ignore the calls.
so, today while i am at work, he sees a coworker of mine during the weekend, and (she has no idea, how he f@@k me over) – she states, hey i saw your ex and guess, what he wants me to give you his new phone number and then he wants to take you out to dinner, he says he misses you and you are really on his BRAIN!
Well, while she was thrilled – i was sick to my stomach because he had her truly fooled wiith the Charming Good Guy side, like the break up was because of me.
she said, i need to log onto facebook and send you his number – i stopped her and just said “NO THANKS”
The same way he is trying to screw me again, if i fell for it, is the same way he got me in the first place, “Dinner and a movie” now i cant afford to take myself anywhere!
He owes me so much money and he is sending word for a Dinner date! the nerve of this PIG!
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Wednesday, 17 February 2010 @ 11:56pm
OxDrover says:
Dear He didn’t break me,
Congratulations on the 6 months NC. Yea, they try to contact you anyway they can, back door, front door, crawl in the window. It is like it never happened, and they can’t figure out why you’d be mad! LOL
I would change my number, I know that’s a hassle, but I wouldn’t want “friends” like her (even though she didn’t know) to give him my number. Only give your number to people you can trust NOT to pass it around or write it on the bathroom wall.
Mike, I think I understand how Des feels, she is ANGRY—and justifiably so, that man took something prescious from her, that is a NATURAL EMOTION, and the wanting revenge is a NATURAL EMOTION as well. It is part of the healing processs and programmed into our brains chemically. Thinking about revenge actually “lights up” the pleasure centers in our brain, so while you may be able to see this in the light you do, SHE is acting “normally”—civilization overcomes some of the “need for revenge” in a violent way, but at the same time, that feeling is totally normal. We just have to NOT ACT on it, but we can feel it.
Believe me I have had some great revenge fantasies, but I did not act on them, and eventually I worked that bitterness out of my heart, not for THEM, but for ME. Give her some time and support. Let her feel it and acknowledge you know how she hurts and that her feelings are natural, she can’t be “logic’d” or “rationalized” out of this, this is a FEELING not logic. If that makes any sense. Good luck and God bless.
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Thursday, 18 February 2010 @ 11:52am
slimone says:
One Step,
I will be out of town until Monday. So, no email access. I will look for your email when I return. Hope you are having moments of peace and OKness….Slim
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Thursday, 18 February 2010 @ 12:47pm
Aeylah says:
hedidntbreakme,
NC in 6 months! congratulations. Like oxy said, they will try anywhich way! beware of the pitty play next, (“I’m dying of cancer and your the only one I love, I trust, I need you”….) because that’s what got me sucked in again last time after NC for about 6 months too.
Stay strong.
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Thursday, 18 February 2010 @ 1:32pm
JaneSmith says:
Mike,
I only just read your post to Kathleen from Feb 11, 9:34 pm.
My heart raced with horror, shock and sorrow while reading your words describing the excruciating pain both families are feeling during this tragic time.
I am speechless. I’m not a brilliant healer like Kathleen is, able to provide comforting and reassuring words of wisdom during times of extreme crisis and suffering.
All I can say is I am so, so very sorry. My heart does ache for you, for your family, for Odalina’s mother and family.
But mostly my heart aches for Odalina. That poor, young, lovely woman who is gone, brutally and savagely murdered for no damn reason except because the psychopath wanted it.
I’m sick to my stomach knowing this. But it is the horrific, frightening truth. Reality.
I wish it never happened and she was still alive and with us on this planet. She’s not. So sad.
Another beautiful spark of life callously snuffed out. I weep for such a tragedy.
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Thursday, 18 February 2010 @ 2:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Mike,
All I can say on the post about you calling the cops is that it is SO frustrating to YELL FIRE!!!!! and no one listens, to yell HELP!!!! and the very people who should listen don’t.
If it will make any difference to you, and it might—contact the newspaper and tell them your story of horror and the police not listening. Maybe it won’t do your loved one any good at this point, but MAYBE IT WILL SAVE SOMEONE ELSE!! Maybe that will be the GOOD that can come out of this.
It is heart rending I can only imagine, I too and many people here have yelled HELP to the police and to others who DID NOT LISTEN TO US, and the results were bad as well, but each time this happens, maybe we can alert others so that in the FUTURE people (including the police) WILL listen.
For me, the police DID listen, but because he had jNOT at that time committed any crime that could be proven, they could not pick him up and only by the grace of God was my son saved from his attack–but maybe this was what would force me into SEEING what was going on, to force me to realize my son was way too dangerous to be out of prison, and keep him in prison soo OTHERS would not die.
Like Kathleen, I believe there is a “reason” though sometimes WE cannot see it, only the devestation, but HOLD ON as you and Des try to make it through this TERRIBLE time.
I weep for and with you. God bless and a big HUG!
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Thursday, 18 February 2010 @ 4:17pm
erin1972 says:
Steve hit the ball out of the park on this one-insane article, but in a GOOD way. This seriously struck a nerve with me. It was chilling to see my ex s’path’s blatant disregard for me. It was like Steve and I were staring my ex in the face. I totally see through A*** now. He is an empty shell of a human being. I re-watched the CNN segment that Sanjay Gupta did with my ex and all I could think was-PATHETIC. That SOB has done all he’s done to me and all these other women before me and to his wife-who took him back AGAIN and the freak is on national television being interviewed by CNN. No wonder he thinks he’s all that and a bag of chips!!!
Best article on here so far-can’t believe I’ve been here over a week and am just reading it today!!!
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Sunday, 14 March 2010 @ 9:53pm
hottytoddy93 says:
VERY DISTRAUGHT so please forgive long post.
This is an amazing site & an INCREDIBLE article. I have felt so alone. Most people don’t even know what a sociopath is much less understand how they bleed you emotionally, physically, financially until you feel you are barely surviving each day. I feel like people think I am the “crazy one.” My husband and I married 4 years ago. He adopted my daughter. Looking back there were red flags all over, but I never really understood sociopathy (ASPD) until this past fall when I uncovered SO many lies..everything is a lie! Even asking if he stopped at the bank elicited a lie from him.
I figured out he cheated profusely w/ MANY women over the yrs. He bolted the next day while I was in the hospital (never came to check on me or called hospital even when rumors swirled I had died). I weighed 75lbs, suffering from numerous diseases, organ failure, extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, you name it (gee, wonder why!)! He refused all of my calls. Ignored me completely after he left without warning. Both he & his parents (enablers in denial) filed restraining orders against me for calling to try to find him & talk to him. They have me wound up in such costly legal actions, criminal & civil. He filed divorce against me only 2 wks after leaving with no warning…a man who had never uttered the word divorce. I’m now dead broke. Filed bankruptcy last week as he left me with ALL the debt!
Not surprisingly, when he left my physical condition rapidly improved. My emotional state, however, is a complete wreck. My daughter’s grades are falling, she has gone boy crazy trying to fill the void. I feel destroyed by the man. What’s worse is that I actually still feel like I love him! WHY? I must be out of my mind. I feel isolated because people just don’t get it. He has of course never apologized, has no guilt or remorse, just left when he got caught without any regard for anyone but himself. He’s now at his parent’s using them for all sorts of money…they paid his divorce atty over $8000.
Btw, found out recently that he was diagnosed at age 23 w/ ASPD after his parents forced him to go to a psychologist. He had lied for 3 yrs saying he was in school while he took parents money. Told them day of graduation (after they had a huge, pretentious party planned for that day!) that he hadn’t been in class for 3 yrs! He had made up professors, classes, and fake grade reports all along while blowing their money. He didnt ever seem to care and never paid them back. In 2008 we received marital counseling due to his affairs. His psychologist told me a year later when he abandoned us that she believed he has ASPD! Now I have read so much & he fits it ALL to a tee…espec the pity play!
So how do I recover? My life is a complete disaster.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 2:10pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Hottytoddy93,
I am sorry that you got mixed up with such a faker! And actually, I am sorry for his parents as well, because willingly or unwillingly or knowingly or unknowingly, they are enabling him to do othe kind of things he has done and WILL DO AGAIN, to wreck lives.
PEOPLE ON THIS BLOG DO UNDERSTAND AND YOU ARE NOT ALONE! Stay here and read more, learn more, and one step at a time, start to recover yourself and your own power over your life. It probably feels right now like you are powerless, but you are not, and you will survive this—if no other reason than to SHOW THE ARSEHOLE HE CAN’T KILL YOU! ((((hugs)))) and God bless you.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 2:29pm
silvermoon says:
ht93,
IF YOU HAVEN’T AGREED TO THE DIVORCE SETTLEMENT-YET, YOU ARE NOT STUCK WITH THE DEBT.
KEEP RECORDS OF EVERY NICKEL YOU SPEND! IT WILL COME OUT IN THE WASH!
How has he got you wrapped up in criminal charges?
You need to get the diagnoses in writing from the therapist you work with and from the earlier diagnosis or you need to get your attorney to depose his parents about it!
Sounds like his parents will pay his bills so if you include attny fees and court costs go to him in the settlement, you should be able to get some help.
You can prove that he lies and begin to untie what he has done to you.
Just because he does horrible things, doesn’t mean you have to lie down and LET HIM WIN.
Welcome to LF.
Hugs too!
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 2:40pm
ErinBrock says:
HT93:
Welcome and im glad you found us here at LF.
We DO understand, we DO ‘get it’……
I suggest you read around the articles and some of the postings and you will no doubt, connect with some of us!
We’ve been there….some still there…..we are all in different stages of the journey…….and we all want to support eachother offering hands up.
You will find much validation here and support…stick around!
It’s tough…..I won’t lie…..but in the end….it’s a journey of self evaluation and strength. We learn so very much about ourselves and learn what brought us to ‘today’……in order to have a brighter future. It’s out there……we just gotta work for it!
Keep your strength, believe in yourself and stick around for support!
XXOO
EB
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 4:46pm
flowerpower says:
Love LOVE this article. My particular “jokester” had nailed the Forrest Gump/Gomer Pyle routine ..”Goh–leee! I am just too nice to be a threat to a dad gum thang”. It worked on me.
Flashback to when my ex and I attended pastoral counselling and in his best aw shucks, golly gee whiz good ol’ boy routine, he looked at the counsellor and said wide eyed, “she is just so much smarter ‘n me and it makes me feel so bad, can you help me learn some thangs?” Then when he was given some advice…”aw I was jus’ jokin’”.
All the while this is going on, he is sneaking around with different women with the help of some good ol boy buddies…snickering and high fiving. But is “too dumb” to know how to work a computer, phone, camera..yuk, yuk how could I be a cheater??
Romans1:29,30,32:, “they are gossips, slanderers, insolent, arrogant and boastful, they invent ways of doing evil. They are senseless,faithless,heartless and ruthless…they not only continue to do these things but also approve of those who practice them.
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Sunday, 21 March 2010 @ 6:36pm