Forgiveness, sociopathy and choice
PDF Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Ana – I wrote the job description today and met with the person I want to take the job – someone i know who has worked with the organization before. don’t know that she will take it. am sad about that too.
and you so have to stop saying ‘yes ma’am, no ma’ammmmmm, No SIR!! to me. it’s too damn sexy.
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tobehappy says:
Hens…I did get a few local people who are looking for a place…I don’t know where else to advertise.
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Hens says:
craigslist is a goldmind for scammers and scum – perverts and dangerous people – i have heard to many horror stories associated with cl…maybe call a realestate managment co. – you would have to share bathroom and kitchen – maybe it would be easier to just get married to a rich man?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
tobehappy – when i rented to students, i listed at the uni and on kijiji. don’t know if you have kijiji where you are…the students use it a lot here, and it isn’t the cesspool that craigslist is.
i also connected with someone at the uni who was in charge of placing overseas students from her program. I connected with her via word of mouth, but a uni with a lot of international students may have people doing this. she was a really good source of students (these were all doctorate or post doctorate students).
what about community centres, churches, yoga studios….i know there are crap people everywhere, but craiglist is just such a huge risk.
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Ana says:
One Joy Step,
LOLOL you’re just crackin’ me up tonight! Yeeessss, Ma’amm.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
you think i am kidding? HA!
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Ana says:
One Joy!
Stop Ma’amm! What’s the saying? I didn’t mean to turn you on! I loved that group do you remember it?
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
no idea what you are talking about.
…and really, turning me on is a public service at this point.
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Ana says:
One Joy,
It was Roxy Music…lolololol
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
i had one roxy music tape in the 80′s – don’t remember the songs at this point.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
… i do remember some of the song ‘more than this’…that’s it.
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Ana says:
Hey, that’s good nuff for me!
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tobehappy says:
Hens…lol!!!!
Not looking to get married to anyone!! lol!
Actually, they would use the bathroom in the hall by the room.
No use of kitchen…just a microwave in the room and small refrigerator.
Like I said….it has to be someone just looking for a “room”..not the whole house.
I am going to try the churches and place ads in places as you said….
I agree…CL is really messed up. I did sell a few cars off of there and had no problem.
But, its a great place for predators!
Thanks for the advice.
I’m on several dating sites online too…and I rarely respond.
I did respond to a guy in the next town, last week. He’s a firefighter and from a town up north near where I grew up.
We spoke on the phone and he told me some horror stories of some psycho women! lol!
We are going to meet at a resturaunt soon.
I know 2 people who met online..both decent…and got married and are normal and happy.
I don’t respond to the 75 emails I get per day!!! lol
He was the first one.
Following my “intuition” ….it works.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
tobehappy – remember that talking about having psycho women is a classic spath move. be careful.
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Ox Drover says:
There are so many people on craigslist and other internet groups that are really scam artists. I still get e mails every day that tell me if I will contact the person they will send me millions of US dollars. LOL
Back when I had rental houses, I even almost rented to a guy that was wanted by the FBI…and he was a CHARMER too! His deposit check bounded (no account) and I got in contact with his GF whose car he was driving and she told me he’d been arrested. I’ve rented to people who were local and still scam artists, they paid the first month’s rent and the deposit and never another cent. I rented to a guy I used to work with, and he moved in 10 relatives and friends. My husband rented to a lawyer who wanted the house for a KENNEL…and moved in 20 or more dogs because it was cheaper to rent a 4 bedroom house with an enclosed garage and a nice brick pool house than to put the dogs in boarding kennels. You never know what you are getting into.
One of the better things about living in the boonies though is usually you can know about a person’s family, etc. more than just meeting someone through an ad in the paper. People who are more “local” have a reputation that can be checked up on before you get too deeply involved with them.
BUT, keep in mind, though I was recently at the court hearing of a MINISTER I “knew” for 15 + years and though I may not have liked him, I sure as heck did not ever think he would be arrested for stalking a child on the internet and kiddie porn. He makes the THIRD guy I THOUGHT I knew that turned out to be a pedophile. So we have got to use our INTUITION to keep us safe.
Tobehappy, I’m with you, people have got to EARN my trust, I am no longer GIVING it away in a day or a week or even a year. My trust is a sacred thing, and I am GUARDING IT!
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Ox Drover says:
ToBEHappy,
GET OFF THAT DATING SITE NOW!!! boink!!!!! I am with Hens on this one, his talk of a psycho woman, BIG RED FLAG.
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Ana says:
Oxy!
I asked you about collard greens and Hens answered…He said they are best cooked with bacon, salt, and pepper and they give ya the runs…
I hope he doesn’t mind I’m asking for a second opinion!! LOL
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
oxy – a kennel! jayzus!!
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Ox Drover says:
Ana, yes, that is the way to cook them, and if you eat much you will get the TWO STEP.
One stepper, a KENNEL FOR SURE!
Yep, my husband rented to her and the house was about 20 miles away from here and there were two houses on the 6 acres, the small house had been rented to a married couple of students, great renters. The lawyer told my husband she had 1 little dog, and her rent was always in the mail on time so I never went over there. Well got the rent check and a NOTE from the young couple complaining about the DOGS she had staked out all over the 6 acres barking all the time. Well, I went over there and sure enough she had DOGS EVERYWHERE. In crates in the house, loose in the house, in crates in the garage and pool house. She had a blow up mattress in the house and an apartment refrigerator (4 bedroom house) and that was about it along with some boxes of papers where she had priced kennel space. Apparently she was only coming there a day or two a week to feed and water the dogs, so you can imagine what a MESS IT WAS.
She had the NERVE to tell me that my husband had known she had ALL those dogs. Yea, right! Anyway, I gave her notice and she moved out almost immediately. After that, I always went over to COLLECT the rent in person. Even that wasn’t always a success. I think I rented to a bunch of psychopaths and nut jobs. One group moved in all their relatives like a tribe of Gypsies, and painted the living room PURPLE. At least they paid the rent though.
I AM sure glad to have those houses gone though….never want rental property again, at least not remote from me, where I can keep a DAILY eye on it.
Right now I have good renters for the pasture lands here on the farm…but got one bad renter who let it “go to ruin” (pastures must be maintained!) and I had to evict him and his cows. These people have done a good job for the most part but I did have to give them “notice” once that I was becoming unhappy with the weeds growing up and wanted it taken care of immediately. They said “yes, Mam” and took care of it immediately.
My land, my rules. My way or the highway!
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tobehappy says:
He wasn’t involved with a “psycho”…We were just talking about dating sites since he never posted on one either.
He said that it isn’t just “men” who are psycho on them, but there are crazy women on there too.
He agreed to meet a woman and when she came out of the house…she looked nothing like her photo. She was about 350 lbs!!! He felt sorry for her…took her to dinner…and she spoke of some crazy lifestyles she’s lived!!!
He seemed nice on the phone….has been a firefighter for 25 yrs…has 3 children…son is a cop in town here….
So, to meet at a local resturaunt for dinner…I don’t feel I’m in danger. I’ll be able to tell from “hello”…..
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Ox Drover says:
2B,
Each to their own. You’re a big girl and can make your own decisions. Just not my cuppa’ tay!
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tobehappy says:
Well….we will see….I’ll have my radar on for “red flags”..thats for sure!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
2b – didn’t say he was ‘involved with’ a pyscho.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
peace out all…
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Ox Drover says:
Well, I’m too cynical to do the on-line dating thing.
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Jen says:
Ox, I am too afraid of it!
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tobehappy says:
I am leary too. I get tons of messages each day, and I delete almost all of them. But, I do know people who have met nice people on there. One of my good friends, Charlie, I met ten years ago on Match.com. He wrote something to the effect that “hey, you never know, you might meet a new friend”. I contacted him one night and we’ve been “friends” ever since.
I am the “red flag” queen…VERY cynical.
This guy, who I haven’t met in person yet, feels the same way as I do. But, he wants to meet someone and it isn’t easy at our age since we don’t go out to clubs and bars like you do when you are younger, with your friends.
So, I will meet him at this local resturaunt, one of these days, after I settle my girls back into school and need a night out.
In the meantime, my sister, has been calling me constantly. I won’t answer the phone. I want to tell her how I feel and why I can’t deal with her hurting me and letting me down over and over. She doesn’t seem to see what she has done to hurt me…didn’t open her home to me during a hurricane!
I don’t want to harbor resentment, but I just cannot have people in my life that are really not there for me when I need them. It hurts too much. She has been emailing my girls too,which I don’t think is appropriate. They are very sensitive, because they really liked her and cared about her..but see how she always lets me down with her self -centeredness.
It just seems that, in this life, its not easy to find people who really “care”. When I am your friend, I am a true friend. I expect the same in return..or I don’t want it.
I am tired of being an option to someone when I make them a priority. I’m worth more, and this is what the aftermath of dealing with a sociopath does to us…after healing. We realize that it isn’t worth it to keep giving and getting nothing in return. If it isn’t “real”, I don’t want it.
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Eclipse says:
Thanks for the article yes indeed I have been on this issue for over two years now. Forgiveness is a choice and it’s up to the individual. Mine was a conman he took me for thousands and like always promises to pay back..my story Looking into the eyes of a conman… I am much better to this day, I will always have some issues because of all of this. I forgave myself finally for believing in this snake. It’s between us and God for he takes care of it all ;;;;;;;; God bless all of you!!
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
2bhappy – ‘If it isn’t “real”, I don’t want it. ‘ nicely put.
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Louise says:
tobehappy:
I loved your post…thank you!
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Myers says:
I posted this earlier, but it didn’t show up…
Forgive, as defined by google, is to “[s]top feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.” That being said, is to forgive really about the aggressor at all, or is it catharsis for the victim?
I know first-hand that to cling to such hatred only brings more pain.
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panther says:
tobehappy, I might be getting stories confused, but didn’t you say your sister was an spath awhile back? If she is, then I found this statement of yours a bit odd:
“She doesn’t seem to see what she has done to hurt me…”
I think it’s odd because, if you know she is an spath, then I think you are setting yourself to be let down if you are deep down hoping she will realize that she is hurting you. I know how hard it is to keep reminding ourselves that spaths don’t give s SH*T how they hurt us, but it might help us in the long run if we make ourselves face the truth now.
If I am waaay off and your sister isn’t an spath like I thought you’d mentioned earlier, then just disregard this comment.
Toodles
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Warrior says:
I was thinking about my life and how far I have come since my experience with the sociopath. It could have gone so badly, but with determination and a husband who stood by me, the strides made have been huge.
I cannot say I am happy that the sociopath entered my life (he was an affair, as is their usual M.O.), but it really opened my eyes to what was important in my life. My marriage, which suffered a lot, but which my husband and I work on all the time, by ourselves and with healers. My family was almost lost to me, but the same thing happened; we knew we were strong and had to overcome what had happened and learn to live with it. And we did. It is still there in the back of our minds, but we have moved on and have grown in our love for each other.
In a strange way, I have become a strong leader in my family, not necessarily because of the incident, but as an accumulation of life experience.
I can see now why I was open to such a relationship and what was not working or was missing in my life and in me.
I don’t cling to hatred for this man; I never hated him. I was disappointed in him for not being who I thought he was. And I was disappointed in me for failing to heed all the red flags.
Sometimes, if you just wait long enough, they will shoot themselves in the foot. Last year, this man was found guilty on three counts of sexual abuse and, subsequently, deported back to the European country he was from. Karma.
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Ox Drover says:
2BHappy,
It has been said here on LF many times (and other places I am sure) WHEN PEOPLE SHOW YOU WHAT THEY ARE, BELIEVE THEM.
Your sister SHOWED you that she had no compassion and no care and no love for you the night she told you to go to a church.
I would have opened my home (and I bet you would) to a casual friend or neighbor on such an emergency, much less a sibling.
Obviously she is going to continue to call you and e mail your children. I suggest that you send her ONE E MAIL, and then BLOCK her e mail access to your kids and you, and continue to not answer the phone, or change the number if you have to. I would say, short and sweet, something along this line.
“Sister’s name,
I’m not going to go into ALL the reasons why I do not wish to have any further contact with you, only one. You telling me to go to a church when I asked to be able to come to your house to evacuate before hurricane Irene was the FINAL cherry on the top.
I do NOT EVER want to have anything to do with you again. You have proven to me that we do not have a good relationship. Please leave me and my daughters COMPLETELY ALONE.
AFTER THIS you calling or e mailing will only further prove to me that you have NO respects for my wishes. I will not change my mind under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES so give me and my daughters peace and LEAVE US ALONE.”
If she doesn’t get it after that, change your phone numbers. A short letter like this were you give A REASON and just saying “we don’t have a good relationship” rather than being accusing “you are a biatch” etc. may not give her so much N-injury (she will have some N-injury to be mad at you about just because you are not at her beck and call.)
Stick strong to your resolve to cut this toxic woman out of your life. I agree with you that telling you to go sleep on the floor of a church in that kind of emergency is about as LOW AS IT GETS. LOL
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Ox Drover says:
Eclipse, Myers, Warrior–good posts.
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Jen says:
Panther, I know what she tobehappy meant. Siblings are very close to each other (okay not all). I loved my younger brother dearly, all our lives. It hurts really, really bad when they, of all people, pull this crap on us. It doesn’t matter what they are, in reality, that bond is just really hard to break sometimes. It takes a ton of time, and sometimes they hurt us for the rest of our lives, even if we know better. Just because they cannot feel, doesn’t mean we can’t. It is hard to actually grasp the mind of a spath when you are loving and feeling.
I broke ties with my brother just a few months ago. I do still miss him and how he used to be. I am unsure of if he is a spath, but he is sure acting like one. I am not sure if he is just trying to please the spaths around him, or if he is one. I do not think I really want to believe that he might be one, too. I am not sure. The whole thing is confusing.
Anyway, I understand it.
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tobehappy says:
Thanks for all of your responses concerning my sister.
I’m not sure she is a sociopath. She has been on SSI her entire life for mental disability. I have helped her raise her daughter. She was a single mom. I literally did everything for her daughter from birth until she was 15. She doesn’t even appreciate it and is now 29 and doesn’t even acknowledge me. She obviously forgot about all of those years.
During that time, my sister was always causing problems and we had lots of periods where we didn’t talk. She is considered the black sheep of the family…did drugs, ran away from home, etc. I was the only one who took care of her during her suicide attempts and visits in the psychiatric ward. She was my “little sister” and I felt sorry for her and always tried to help her through the years. She claimed that my grandfather sexually abused her when she was very young.
She lies a lot and believes her own lies.
All of the ten years I have been raising my girls alone, she was not around. She promised my mom ten yrs ago before she died that she would help me with my children. Never did. I didn’t see her until a few years ago when she relocated nearby.
3 yrs ago she was 2 blocks away from me here, at my brother’s house and when I was hospitalized for a week, she wouldn’t even help me out with my girls. I begged her to sleep over and just be here for them. They are independent and cook and do everything else for themselves. She wouldn’t help. She hung out a few blocks away doing nothing…She mooches off of people, gets sick of them, and then moves on.
So, I started talking to her again in Sept. I explained that if she wanted me in her life…she had to be 100%. I felt that we are getting older and we should be close. We joined the gym together and she was more reliable..sticking to her word and not breaking plans.
Then a few weeks ago, when she knew I was down and out about something…she disappeared. She was busy hanging out with her friend a few blocks away, who is a sick woman…steals…lies…etc. She got into some church with her…as many “phonies” do…and started avoiding me. Finally she made plans with me one night and then cancelled with the excuse that she was tired and then passed my house with her b/f …and didn’t even stop! They went for dinner.
So, I feel like she uses me and my girls…wants the security of “having me there” for her…but, when a crisis occurred, the hurricane…she just took care of herself.
The whole family knows she is self-centered and self-absorbed. But, she can also be very kind…stopping over to see the girls…bringing gifts for them…very affectionate …hugging them…etc. She’s very spunky and my girls finally had “family” that cared. Thats what hurts. She’s hot and cold.
I’ve x’ed her out of my life so many times. Then I forgave her always thinking she would be different and not pull the disappearing act..which is hurtful to me AND my girls.
The family always lets her back in…and she does the same to them. Helps out…comes around…gets sick of them …and then doesn’t bother.
I just ended the friendship I kept going on with my xbf…for the same reason. It was always all about him…around HIS schedual. He was a taker…not a giver. That is NOT a true friend.
And, I feel that she’s the same. Whether they are narcissists, sociopaths…IDK.
But I do know, that when I feel “used” and not cared for genuinely, I don’t want to be around these people. I get hurt, and angry, and I don’t want to live like this. I am better off alone and just with people around me who are “real”.
There just comes a time in life, when you just don’t need to be around people who suck the life out of you.
I’m there. I have my house back now to maintain for my girls and my girls to take care of ….and myself.
Thats all I need.
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panther says:
Jen, I do understand her, because I am in anguish over my “soul mate” and struggle with denial every day. I wasn’t trying to be mean to her, just a little tough love, hoping to help her in ways that I have needed many times. I have siblings and I’d have a hard time digesting spathy in any of them too. I also had what felt to me like a life-altering cosmological miracle of a bond with my ex. I shared my body and soul with him and believed to the very core of my being that I’d grow old with him and nurture a beautiful, loving family with him. It is EXTREMELY painful, I know….I just wanted to nudge her and remind her not to let herself forget the truth, because that just sets us up to get let down. The best we can hope for in this hopeless situation is to, at the very least, stop waiting for things that will never come.
I cannot stop thinking about how much I just want to hear him utter or show one SHRED of REAL compassion (not faked), one tiny itsy bitsy ounce of empathy. It is like a knife that stabs me relentlessly and never stops. I could scream until the heavens heard me, but he would not hear a thing….
I do understand her….I just hoped to help. We’re all safe here.
I have to run.
Catch you all later.
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Whirlwind71 says:
I don’t think that the answer is to forgive “them” for what they did to us…I like what others posted when they said, why should someone who has NO remorse for what they did be forgiven? I think the answer lies in forgiving OURSELVES! We need to forgive ourselves for allowing/having/accepting this person in our lives. We beat ourselves up trying to hash out in our minds WHY and HOW could this have happened. It’s our own hearts and heads that won’t allow us to move forward (I should say I am speaking on how I feel what I AM doing to myself). HOw could I not see him for what he was, HOW could I allow him to speak to me, my kids, my friends like that, WHY would I allow him to mistreat every thing I work so hard to accomplish and WHY would I keep going back…blah blah blah…
I am tried of beating myself up on those unending questions and MORE.
I am working on the forgivness but only for ME! He doesn’t deserve to be forgiven! Could forgiving him possible give the illusion that I and others accept and approve of his actions (in his mind). I mean, if I kill someone and the courts and victims family forgive me…then where is the justice? Not that a SP EVER EVER get that, but it would be a win for them.
I forgive me … and with that I will grow !!!
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tobehappy says:
I stopped beating myself up because I realized that, at the time, they were filling a need I had. They had SOME value or I wouldn’t have kept them around.
But, when the pain they cause us is worse than the pain of being alone without them, it was time to end the relationships.
My children really loved my sister and she was there for me and for them at times. But, when the real test of what she was made of surfaced, I had to let her go. If she TRULY cared, she would never let us stay in our house, a few blocks from the bay and on a lake! She obviously didn’t care if we were killed during the hurricane. So, she showed me what value WE had in HER life. ZILCH.
The xbf was like a little child…running around buying everything for himself..too cheap to take me to dinner once in awhile…just coming down when HE needed sex. He tried to fake it…but he was incapable of loving and caring for anyone.
He was abandoned by his mother at age ten. Never saw her again..raising by a tyrant grandmother.He doesn’t have any idea who his bio dad is..not even his name!
He didn’t even have sneakers to wear to school! He had to wear his soccer cleats! So, now he just buys himself several pair of sneakers a week! He is totally self-absorbed and lives off of people. How could I expect a disordered person to GIVE anything to ME??? He has nothing to give.
So, I forgave myself for allowing him to be in my life. He served a purpose. I learned so much from dealing with someone like him. ….mainly NOT to bring these types of people in my life. They always hurt you. My theory is that “insecure, disordered people will always hurt you”. I only want confident, respectful, emotionally healthy, caring people in my life. People like ME.
I always remember something from my Catholic school upbringing…”Forgive them, for they know not what they do”.
Its not that they don’t know…its just their way of life…they “can’t” give what they don’t have.
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Whirlwind71 says:
To be Happy:
Your story is simular to mine…I hear that pain. Glad you have found peace in such a unsettling time. WAY TO GO!!!
As far as your sister…yup hear that too. My friend, BEST friend, my friend for 35 years…told me flat out…DO NOT come running to me, he is BAD, horrible, worse than your ex husband and I won’t listen to the stories that happen if your together with him cause I warned you and I don’t want to hear it – among much more…
It hurts, but she is no longer in my life. All those years of listening to her past family problems and whining about her first marriage and then whining about her second (which she has NOTHING to whine about)…I always kept myopinions quiet and listened each and every time.
Spit in the face as far as I am concerened…I have NO time for her or others like that. My true friends DID tell me in other and gentle ways that he isn’t treating me right, but they stood by me. For that – they are still in my life.
This is your sister and that must hurt bad. Again I know, cause my own father turned away from me and STLL won’t talk to me (I think it’s more so pride now).
You keep in your life only those who enrich you as you do them.
Many blessings!!!
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skylar says:
Tobehappy,
All the good things that you sister did were fake.
She just likes having you in her life, just in case she needs something. But the truth is she is envious of you and your house on the lake. So when your house was the cause of your dismay, she took that opportunity to make sure you suffered – even to the point of risking your life.
Everything you’ve written about her points to N or S traits. That includes the kisses and the gifts, because remember, they have to wear a mask in order to keep you coming back.
I would not even bother with writing her a letter. Letters are reserved for people who … are people. With a spath, letters become ammunition. She will love knowing that she hurt you and how she hurt you.
Please, just go NC, make it permanent. If you must see her, do NOT FEED HER ANY EMOTIONS. Go NC in your mind.
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skylar says:
Whirlwind,
Forgiveness seems to have different meanings for different people.
I guess, for me, it means not wanting revenge anymore. But I do want justice and hope for it.
I never did want revenge very much from my exspath. I’d rather lead a good life. As it turns out, his evil opened my eyes so wide that I can see clearly now and my chances for a good life are vastly improved. Being able to see all the spaths in my life, can be an asset, and he provided that.
I say , “can be” because, it can also be debilitatingly depressing.
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tobehappy says:
Skylar…
I am holding off on writing her a letter unless she calls or emails again. I wrote a good one..(credits to Oxy!)…but I agree with you. She always seems to love to get into everyone’s business and is happy when I have troubles.
I have too much resentment toward her from how she treated me over the years. I gave her one last chance to be close to me, but she let me down again. Its so hard when its your family. You want to be close, but sometimes blood isn’t thicker than water. My siblings have been very disappointing over the years. But, my friends have been wonderful! So, these are the people that I keep in my life.
The rest don’t deserve my friendship.
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tobehappy says:
Whirl…
My family was always very dysfunctional. My mother was an abusive. My father was passive. My mother always used the divide and conquer strategy by turning her five children against each other. My siblings are very selfish. My sister is the worst.
She is a lot like my mother. So is my other sister. I took after my father..who was educated, but a masochist. He took abuse from my mother until the 25th year when he caught her cheating. He left. But, he was very selfish also.
So, there’s been too much dysfunction and I was really on my own all of my life..just watching it all happen. I was the only one who went to college and became independent of them. Then, my one brother did also, and felt the same way as I did.
It’s sad that a big family, five kids…turned out disasterous. Both of my parents passed away young…early sixties. My youngest brother is married to a narcissist who controls him. I don’t even get involved and just see them on holidays. The dynamics of my family is not good.
My life became my girls and I and my very close friends. And, I am peaceful not being around the drama.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear 2B,
You know, I even quit the holidays with the dysfunctional ones years ago….it just wasn’t worth the drama. Every holiday became a big drama rama and I got to where the holidays actually were a pain in the back side.
If the ONLY time I get together with someone is a “holiday” because I am “expected” to, that isn’t much of a relationship. I’d rather be home eating a hot dog than share a feast with someone I don’t love or even like just because they are blood related. Not worth it.
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tobehappy says:
I agree. After my mother passed away, my best friend invited us up for the holidays every year! I wanted my girls to have a warm holiday and fun. My whole family split up. Everyone went crazy. They were all mad at me for being assigned executor. It was crazy. In time, everyone started talking.
So, my brother who owns a million dollar home in an affluent town, invites everyone every year. I go for the girls. I spend time with my nephew, his son. Then I help clean up and hang out in the living room in front of the fireplace, in the IJoy massage chair. I refuse to sit at the dining room table and debate and gossip with the rest. I do it all for my girls. They enjoy themselves being with their cousins.
It was always drama, even when my mom was alive. She loved to cook and had every holiday at her home. But, inevitably, even after the day was over, there was gossip and drama.
I learned, when my girls were younger, to make our own traditions for the holidays. We enjoy staying home, lighting a fire, playing scrabble and cards, etc… Its a shame that disordered parents create disordered children.
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Hens says:
tobehappy
I might be wrong but I bet there is gossip in all familys, even the Norman Rockwell family’s that play scrabble and all get along gossip about the one that is not present..
Gossip without drama or gun’s is common – I think?
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Ox Drover says:
2B, you say you “do it for your girls”…..what is that showing them about putting up with superficial people who have nothing but DNA in common?
I like your idea about making memories of your own with your FRIENDS and good people, not spending time with “relatives” who are dysfunctional.
My only “blood relatives” are few and far between, but they are loving kind and good people who care for me. The rest can go straight to hades!
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Hens says:
speaking of gossip – Are you out there Behind Blue Eye’s? Did your new friend turn out ok? Hope your doing ok..
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