Forgiveness, sociopathy and choice
Although it has been many years and there is a new relationship, a friend of mine still wishes every day that the sociopath that preyed on her will “drop dead.” Wishing and hoping that some horrible end will come for the sociopath takes up time and energy in my friend’s life; as she searches for evidence that something bad has indeed happened to the sociopath and then is disappointed.
Recently, I discussed the topic of forgiving psychopaths with a psychopathy researcher who is not a clinician. He said he received a letter from someone complaining that friends were pressuring the victim to forgive. It was the psychopathy researcher’s opinion that people should NOT be told they have to forgive a psychopath.
Upon reflecting on this opinion, I believe that this psychopathy researcher may have a special insight that informs his view —that psychopaths should not necessarily be forgiven. Perhaps this insight is: in spite of their brain disorder, psychopaths still have a choice about what they do.
My son is now 7, he and I rough and tumble play every day. It is impossible to wrestle and not have some kind of slight hurt come to one or the both of us. From the time he was very young, perhaps as young as 3, my son has appreciated the idea that mommy didn’t “do it on purpose”. If he pokes me in the eye or lands rough on my stomach he’ll say “Sorry, I didn’t do it on purpose.”
This example illustrates our inborn social contract that says we do not hurt each other on purpose. If hurts happen in the course of life, they are usually unintended side effects of other behaviors and so should be forgiven. Cheating on a spouse could even be forgiven as an unintentional hurt if the person succumbed to temptation in a moment of weakness, realized the wrong committed, then repented. Even murder is not punished as much if it is an accident.
The problem with sociopaths is that their behavior is no accident. They hurt people on purpose, carefully planning, then executing their plans. After 7 years of reading research articles and talking to victims, I believe choice is part of a complete explanation of sociopathy and victimization. If you watch any of the TV shows about sociopaths you too will see that the theme of their choices permeates the media.
Friday night, Gangland on the History Channel told the story of Billy Wadd, a member of the Devil’s Disciples motorcycle gang who gained notoriety when he broke the biker’s code of silence and testified against his nephew who murdered a family during a home invasion. Wadd said he decided to aid the prosecution of his nephew, John Wolfenbarger, instead of “taking care of things the usual way” because “You just don’t kill kids.” It is clear he believed these murders were performed with an intention that not even another sociopath could accept, so even sociopaths believe in their own capacities for choice.
Now let’s reconsider whether victims should be told they have to forgive. It seems there is a natural human instinct that says forgiveness is reserved for accidents, unintended consequences, and perhaps intentional slights that are out of character. How then can you ever forgive a psychopath?
Psychopaths have been compared to predators. I think this analogy is seriously flawed. A predator such as a lion or wolf has to kill in order to survive. Psychopaths don’t hurt for survival. They hurt because they want to, because they like hurting. Their enjoyment of hurting increases the likelihood they will choose to hurt if given the opportunity. They also seek out opportunities to hurt -not for survival but for pleasure.
Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.
Instead of forgiving, I hope, my friend, you will think about all this and thoroughly digest the reality of the sociopath you shared life with. The reality is terrible— you shared life with a truly evil person, someone who regularly, with malice and forethought, chooses to harm others. Don’t stop hoping to see the day the scourge of this evil person’s existence will be wiped from the Earth, but do not waste any more of your time on him.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
agnesmurphy17 says:
About Billy Wadd? Could it be that he is making a deal with the prosecution in exchange for his testimony so as to get a better plea bargain? If he is a sociopath, he will do nothing that does not benefit himself. And, ratting for a gang member can mean a death warrant on the street. Will he go to prison for a long time, but lesser than if he had not aided the prosecution? Does he hope that by the time he gets out of prison . . . he will be forgotten & no gang member will come for him?
Also, my S would agree that he had choices. He chose to commit an act. But, he did not intend to hurt me. Therefore, he was not responsible for that consequence. And if I was hurt, that was my fault. I should not have provoked him to act in such a fashion. Also, really, what he did was no big deal. I was just too sensitive.
There is murder wherein an act is committed with the intention to bring about the end of a life. Then there is an accidental death where in an act is intentionally committed but there was no intent to bring about the end of a life–the end of the life was an unforeeseen consequence of what was believably to others an innocent & justifiable act.
Sociopaths see all their acts as normal and justifiable. Or so they say. Can we really know what they think? What is real and what is the lie? Like Billy Wadd. Does he really believe that the other defendant went too far in killing children? Or did his lawyer tell him to say that because that was in his best interest? One never knows with a pathological.
Why forgive? The key is to forget. Truly forget.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 12:45pm
lostingrief says:
this is a great post. every hurt large and small is perpetrated with malice and forethought. it’s about playing with prey and seeing if they can kill it little by little, winning a little something along the way (money, sex, loyalty!). it is a game of psychological torture; of having the prey think it is all their fault.
forgiveness implies a component of remorse. with these evil pods, there is none.
no remorse = no forgiveness.
and i’m just fine with that.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 12:53pm
hopeful6596 says:
Dr Leedom,
Bear with me here. Because I am still so wounded from my experience with SPath, I have a tendency to read into everything when something is written about them, and need to qualify things a lot. When you write that spaths like hurting and they hurt because they want to, does this mean that they can make a choice not to? I know I’m at a place now where I am really hurt that my spath has found someone else and the illusion is one of happiness and doing all the things he wouldn’t with me like meeting friends and family, and so I wonder if he can just make a choice and not do any of those horridly pathological things he was doing to me and others. Intellectually, it just doesn’t make sense at all that he could turn off his pathology, but I need more reassurance about this. I hate having to go over and over this in my mind, but it’s where I’m at right now.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 1:16pm
Hopeforfuture says:
As I read the various posts, I wonder if my spath has a choice. Apparently some horrible things happened to him as a child as well (and I do believe they did as his brother told me about some of them) so maybe this has caused his behavior just as our childhood trauma may be causing our behavior today (just read blog on healing).
He did once cry to me that he hurts everyone and he needs to go to a shrink, so maybe there is some hope for him. And as I find resources for my healing, I am learning (at this late age) what MY issues are and in some small way, I am actually thankful to him because I now have more insight and therefore more tools to NOT be a victim anymore! Not that I forgive him, but I do see that MY dysfunction let me be susceptible and thus I don’t need to stay in victim mode. I can heal, I hope!
Of course, if I saw him today, I would still want to punch him in the face!
Thanks for listening!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 1:30pm
lostingrief says:
personally, i don’t think they have a choice. i think they’d like to think they do. but i knew my spath for more than 20 years, and he always left a wake of destruction. i just never thought he’d do it to me. in that sense, i did think he had a choice. i was proven wrong.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 1:32pm
Spirit40 says:
They choose.. to do exactly what they want when they want and watch us…then they get excited watching us get all riled up….forgiveness is for people who actually have values and morals and human decency…the people that choose to do good with their lives..they deserve our respect…and forgiveness.. callousness , parasitic lifestyles do not deserve forgiveness…and wishing harm on them is like hoping Karma works its stuff and fast…
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:10pm
Spirit40 says:
Hope… I still wish my ex would get run over backwards and forwards…its a refreshing wish……
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:17pm
Hopeforfuture says:
Spirit!
I now know why some cheaters have been run over! My spath is so lucky he is in another country and so am I or I may have gotten in big trouble!
My situation is so fresh (I just found out yesterday that he still lives with his x – yet another lie of many) so I am going through so many emotions! Trying to sort out the lies, which is an impossibility, trying to come to grips with my dysfunctions, grieving over the loss of dreams and hope, anger, anger, anger, frustration with not being able to confront him (actually that’s a blessing) and feeling like crap because I have let this paralyze me for the last few months. I’ve been missing sleep work etc and HAVE to pull myself up! This site helps so much.
I have a question to pose, although I already took action, but curious what you think.
I emailed via facebook the ex who I believe has been lied to herself and is probably a mess as well, although I could be wrong about his involvement with me and told her I was sorry but he lied to me and I didn’t know he still lived with her. This was a big decision and also I thought would bring me some closure. I haven’t hear back and am now obsessing if he got to the email somehow. Please forgive my behavior but it wasn’t a nasty email to her and I thought she should know what he’s been doing while in the States. Well, since I haven’t heard anything, I don’t have closure! Should I write a snail mail letter? Or just get on with my life and assume she will find everything out anyway?
I just feel crazed as this is so recent!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:41pm
Spirit40 says:
I am no expert… do what you feel is best for you…if it makes you feel better to write and figure it out…? putting the pieces of the puzzle together is not simple, they can also purseuade others to lie for them as well with their charm and manipulation…I only figured out my ex years ago a narc/but now I realize he has always been antisocial/spath…/narc etc…and have my own theory on how it came about for him…dont care though.. I now realize I do not love him at all…not a bit..he was not real ..just a facade, who places more value on power control and possessions? than human beings like his “family”.. he is not my family, never will be and I do not care if he fell off the face of the planet , I would not shed a tear if lightning struck him..twice …I just hope karma works quickly for him…as I am sure its just a matter of time…I am not judging your behavior..its not for me to judge…. a saying I saw somewhere said before you judge me make sure your own hands are clean…..assumptions and judgements only make us look stupid and like asses…I have faith and hope I have not given up on my life or my families lives …he who fights and runs away lives to fight another day…hope I answered your question..everything happens for a reason when its supposed to happen..that is why we can not control everyone and everything…we are not supposed to.
let go….and let the powers that be.. its …easier said than done..
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:53pm
LKamienski says:
Forgiving them only serves to keep us stuck believing that they are capable of insight. It is more important to accept that they exist, have always existed, and will always exist and to forgive ourselves for believing otherwise.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:15pm
Hopeforfuture says:
Thank you Spirit.
I am learning so much on this site, I’m in overload! I will make it through though and am lucky that at least I wasn’t married to the man, nor had his children! I am still in bargaining mode because part of me cannot fathom that he was so calculating and didn’t mean any of it! But of course, as every lie became apparent, it was harder and harder to believe anything. And then it culminated with me finding out he stills lives with her which was the straw (I am not a “mistress” and do have my morals!). Whereas the ex or whatever she is has to deal with this day in and day out for the rest of her life.
Small blessings! Tomorrow I am going to get out and start aggressively taking care of myself. I’m allowing the weekend to be my grieving pity party!
Thanks so much for your responses and being an ear for me! I dont feel quite so alone!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:17pm
Hopeforfuture says:
LKam.
So true. I have to say one of my biggest struggles is trying to fathom how someone could do something like this. BUT like you said, these kind of people do exist and we can never understand how they can do it. I mean, I can see being damaged (believe me) and having issues but once you’re an adult, you should at least have learned to stop such destructive behavior.
Speaking of destructive behavior (speaking of my own), he warned me in his own sly way from day one! He said he was a bad liar on many occasions until I asked him what he meant and then he never said it again. He also gave me other clues. He totally toyed with me. Forgiving myself for not taking car of ME is where I’m looking to get to now.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:28pm
libelle says:
Dear Dr Leedom, thank you for the post. I definitely think they have choices. The X wrote me yesterday another card stating that he has emptied all the bottles of wine I brought over to him (he clearly aknowledged that the bottles were mine and I had suggested he bring them over to my sister who lives about half a mile away from him). Why on earth is he writing me this? It can’t be other than another attempt t torture me (he still cares about me, he enjoyed the wine without me, and he finished the stealing of my good French burgundy). We split in April 08, and I wrote the last card to him in September 08, then it was only him sending me cards every two months, NC from my part. So what the hell was he thinking? Well, each card had less effect, and the card yesterday did not even raise my heart rate. I thought well he is done with the bottles, so there is nothing left from me over there. Fine. Done. I have choices too!
Today I took a test about “Positive psychology”, where there are 6 virtues and 24 characteristics tested.
1. Knowledge and wisdom
2. Courage
3. Humanity
4. Justice/Rightfulness/Fairness
5. Temperance
6. Transcendence
I had some weaknesses in “friendliness”, forgivenness, social binding; well, they asked for “NSP first class target qualities” I try very hard to to overcome!! It was like the LF-test “Are you a target” in reverse!
Dear Hopeforfuture: welcome to LF, and sorry that you qualify as a “Club-member”.
There is no such thing as closure (the X I had dealt with is a fine example!). The closure has to be within yourself.
No answer from her is a very fine answer! It is a NO! Or it is Speechlessness! Or Stop this, I do not want to hear anything because he is my soulmate and I do NOT wake up from this dream (yet).
It is you to chose the answer. Just let it be, because it will hurt you even more if you GET an answer (I have been there!)
Just relax, enjoy the quietness, enjoy the non-drama of being in the best possible, understanding company (of yourself), and pamper yourself, take a bubble bath, clense thorroughly, and let the bad thoughts sink and disappear in the drain of the bathtub, and make yourself a nice cup of orange flower tea and snuggle in your most comfortable bed and imagine your place you liked most when you were a child.
One step a time!
And read and vent and rant, and get knowledge as knowledge is power. I recommend the archives; for me Kathleen Hawkes Steps were most helpful!
The best thing to do is make the decision of going No contact, take back your power you have handed over to him.
Not to read, listen, call, email, snailmail. Him and all the people connected with him. Just walk away. It takes away his power he still might have and diminishes the hurt; this will hurt like hell, and doing this “Cold turkey” is even worse. Come here, read and blog! There are always people who know and can accompany you through the very first times.
By the way, the “hard youth” is a classic “pity ploy”, and most bad people use this as a handy excuse. This is a choice as well!
(((((((Hugs))))))
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:31pm
libelle says:
Dear Hopefrofuture, I want to make an addition to my above post to you.
I just read your other entries, and you too had choices regarding your past! You chose to not become a jerk, evil perpetrator and tormentor cheater, although you had prime examples to copy from!
You go girl! You can be VERY proud of yourself for not chosing this way that was presented to you from an early age on! Congratulations!!!
It is never ever too late to start a healty love affair with yourself! You took already a great step coming here, taking off the rose colored glasses and start digging within yourself to become the wonderful you who you were meant to be from the very first cry at your birth.
(((((Hugs)))))
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:49pm
Hopeforfuture says:
libelle, thank you so much!!! Your words have brought me some true joy today! Made me cry but still! Thank you!!! I will take you advice but first one last “whine”:
One of the things that also hurts is that I just feel so worthless – as if I’m the “other” woman that is easily discarded and meaningless because he goes back to ex. Like their relationship is so valuable. I was just reading other blogs on how to survive infidelity and making your marriage work, etc…(and even though I didn’t know he was still with ex and they are divorced, I’m curious why she would stay) and they all come off as if the other woman is nothing but fodder for his ego. Which I guess we are but I don’t understand why they validate this kind of behavior in men! (or serial cheaters anyway). Like the marriage is so vital and sanctified that staying with a spath is more important to the family than getting rid of the cheat! This is some strange co-dependent behavior as I see it. And I think I need to stay away from those sites because it is hurtful to me.
Okay, now onto your advice and start that healing!!!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:00pm
Hopeforfuture says:
P.S. You rock, libelle!!!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:01pm
timeheals says:
Hi everyone, I’m signing in after a long absence under a new screen name. Unfortunately, I was, like some of you, feeling a bit ignored when my comments were so often not answered, that I chose to stop writing. I have continued all along to read the articles and blogs which have been a never ending source of strength for me, and I apologize for my sensitivity possibly standing in the way of a contribution I never wrote, that may have helped someone else. I think we all need to remember that when new-comers finally get the courage to start writing here, they are in such a tender, needy place…they are the new kid at school…and unless several classmates make a real effort to continually connect and welcome them, they will pull back and withdraw to the last seat in the corner thinking, “they don’t REALLY want to be friends with me..they didn’t even notice how sad I was today”
For the most part, this site is full of wonderful, caring and supportive women (and men)…Having been one who survived a suicide attempt, I can tell you all firsthand…sometimes it’s a battle to keep from slipping back to that place. Hopefully, without the P/S/N’s in our lives, none of us will ever feel that desperation…but all of us should remember that anyone who posts could need so much more than they let on…
Now, my reason for writing….
to Hopeforfuture…Don’t bother trying to “warn” the ex about her Psycho…even if you manage to contact her, she won’t believe you…she’ll tell him…he’ll say you’re crazy…she’ll tell you you’re crazy…and it will make you crazy!!!! Don’t waste your time, she’ll find out on her own….go NO CONTACT You CAN do it, and it WILL get better and easier.
Stargazer…I’ve been praying for you and your kitty, for peace and comfort ;“(
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:16pm
libelle says:
Hopeforfuture: They are true masters of invalidation and manipulation! “Mine” managed to make me tremble at the simple question “where is the sugar?” in the grocery store, and he looked with contempt at my wrong answer as they had rearranged the shelves….
“Your” X is not invalidating you, he is PLAYING both of you, him being the trophy (never possessed by the winner, but has to be handed over to the new winner)! You can be lucky having handed over the “prize” to the new winner, and now PLEASE stay away from the game/competition, will you?! (((((Hugs)))))
Timeheals: welcome back! I look at LF being my lifeline, and the blogs are just to let go the sorrows into cyberspace, and when I really needed help I got it. I was persistent then, blogging and communicating with others, because answering others gives often more insight about one’s own quirks, I have found out. Lf is wonderful, isn’t it?
By the way, have you al,l LF gang, a relaxing evening/start of the week!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Liane,
What is the definition of “forgiveness?” To me that is the crucial question. Does it mean we just pretend it didn’t happen? Does it mean that it was okay for them to do it? Does it mean we must go on and have a trusting relationship with these people again?
As I was growing up, my egg donor’s “definition” of forgiveness was that I had to pretend that the hurt hadn’t happened, pretend that the person who did bad behavior repeatedly was “trustworthy” and that “my hurts” did not matter or were acknowledged. In order to foster this idea in me, I was told from an early age that to be angry with someone for hurting me either deliberately or accidentally was wrong.
My earliest memory of this was in second grade (age 6) when a girl in my class repeatedly beat me up in school every day for most of the year. When she broke my jaw it finally became apparent that something had injured me seriously. However, I was told that I could not be angry at her, that it wasn’t her fault because she lived in a very crowded situation and was simply taking her frustration out on a weaker kid (she was the youngest of 21 children from the same two parents) and that I had to play with her afterwards.
As the initial abuse was going on, I felt ashamed that I was being beaten, and did not tell. After I had the broken jaw, I felt ashamed that I was “found out.” The entire “counseling” I got from both my teacher and from my egg donor was that I should not be “mad” and only excuses for why I shouldn’t be angry at her, and why I must “forgive” her and play with her.
This indoctrination continued throughout my life, and I partly bought into it, though it never felt right that my feelings didn’t matter….but eventually I realized that my feelings DO matter, and that “forgiveness” does NOT mean that I must forget, or trust that person, but rather, that I get the bitterness out of my own heart, the rancor, the wrath, the negative feelings I have, but I can acknowledge that they hurt me, that they did it intentionally, that they are not trustworthy, and that I do NOT have to have a relationship with someone who uses or abuses me in any way. I am NOT obligated to associate with these people and I have made boundaries that I think are reasonable and rational and I will enforce these boundaries.
People (no matter WHAT the relationship) who cross these boundaries will not be in my intimate circle of trust….unless they make the effort to successfully show remorse and a change in behavior that convinces me of their true repentance, acknowledgment of the harm and hurt they have done to me.
By acknowledging my own feelings of justifiable anger and hurt, and disengaging in trusting these individuals, I am able to give up the bitterness that EATS AT ME without condoning in any way the behavior of the other person. What they did is wrong, and I don’t have to accept it, but at the same time I do not want to be filled with rancor and bitterness at what they did for the rest of my life. It doesn’t hurt them because they don’t care, but it hurts me by pushing peace out of my life.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:30pm
hopeful6596 says:
**Sigh** I am a little frustrated. I am frustrated that I can’t seem to get over this feeling that he’ll be happy with this new girl. I get how pathological he is. I completely get it and I keep telling myself that he just can’t turn it off at will. But I also know how incredibly smart he is and I know his capacity to fool people. So, he goes from brutal, just absolutely brutal, cruel behavior with me to joining the community crew team with this girl and spending the holiday with her family. Even his sisters went over to the new girl’s family’s home. I really do feel like this is such a personal slap in the face, since he got together with her immediately after me. He kept calling me afterwards, and was so pissed that I wouldn’t get together with him. I didn’t know it at the time, but while he was seeing this girl, he called me and was apartment sitting for a friend and invited me over to watch movies, just as friends, as he said. He was so angry that I wouldn’t and then said that he should just stop calling me because he wants to see me even more when we talk. He was definitely seeing this girl then! I never met his friends or anything, and now he just got off the dating site he was on, the one he used to cheat on me. Sometimes I am so certain that he is doing whatever he needs to do to feed this woman’s illusion, and that I guy this pathological simply could not be treating her in a normal way. I hate him, hate him, hate him. And I can’t help but be feeling very sad for myself tonight.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:49pm
lightsaber says:
timeheals -
I used to sit along the sidelines in class too….scared (not all women who love pyschopaths are extroverts). I’m glad you survived and are back here to share at LoveFraud.
Welcome
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:51pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hopeful – there is a buddhist mediation called tonglen – giving and taking.
it might be helpful if you want to give it a try:
you start by thinking for a few moments about something that expands your heart in a big way (for me it is my long gone kitty) – until you actually feel a little lightness or openness in your chest;
now give attention to this horrid feeling of having been devalued and discarded – do this for a few moments, until you can feel it with you;
breath into your heart, and know that your heart can transform this horrid feeling through its capacity (don’t’ try’ to transform it, just do a little experiment – just breath) breathing in your own pain deeply and breathing it out as something positive – light, or happiness, or a wish for healing, etc.;
then after doing this for only a few moments, know that there are others on your very block feeling the same thing you are. breath in their pain, with complete confidence that your heart has the capacity to transform their pain, breath it in deeply and breath out your wish for them;
extend this exercise to the people on the other side of town;
to the city limits…you get the drift;
and extend it to her – because she WILL be where you are, and this exercise knows no bounds of time – so the future and the past are fair game;
when you have done each step (and just long enough to feel it, and move on to the next), have given your best wishes for everyone, bring your attention back to yourself, and breath a few moments more;
wish that all beings benefit from what you have done;
sit and be with yourself.
best, one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:09pm
hopeful6596 says:
One Step,
I love that, and I’m going to try it a little bit later when I am getting ready to wind down. That’s beautiful. Thanks so much for your support!
Hopeful~
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:16pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hey, hopeful – you are welcome. I am glad it looks interesting!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:27pm
timeheals says:
hopeful6596 I know EXACTLY how you feel…what finally did it for me and my exP was knowing that he wouldn’t commit to me, yet I was good enough for sex…and then he starts a relationship with a new woman…sleeps with BOTH of us on the same weekend mind you…and I’m sure he planned on continuing to do so, if he thought neither of us would find out about the other. Of course that was it for me, as I found out, having suspicions anyway…and within 2 weeks he brings her to meet the family as someone he’s crazy in love with! We had been together almost 3 yrs, and he kept saying he was “getting there”…just couldn’t fall in love because of past hurts. Now they are living together and at first it hurt a lot…but you have to know something…Psychopaths are never REALLY HAPPY..it’s all part of the game…everyone serves a purpose to them…a source of supply for something they want…sex, power over another…control. I used to feel so bad and think “why couldn’t he just say “I love you”…what’s wrong with me, that I’m not good enough for him? Why did he fall for her so easily? Well, maybe he knows she’s an easier target now that I’ve been suspicious for so long…she has money…he simply got bored and needs a new game…WHATEVER…it doesn’t really matter! EVERYTHING he says is a lie just like your P/S…he lied to you and he will to her…and right now I’m thanking God that I never did hear those 3 little words or I would have been taken in even deeper than I was…maybe married to the jerk. These men are dangerous and the more you read, the more you will see the potential they have for ruining your life if you try to keep any type of relationship with them.
Hang in there…keep reading…and writing…we’ve all been in your shoes …hugs
lightsaber…thank-you thank-you
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:47pm
to innocent to know says:
Hopeforfuteure,
I tried to warn the next victim down the road, and she would not listen, surprise! They have to find out for themselves, and I tell you now, they will. it might take some time, but they will. It has been 6 months almost to the day and they are broken up. She’s still friends with him, probably because he gave her the” you will always be special” BS and she’s probably willing to be hoovered back into the relationship. My feeling is, he already has someone else on the take, so to say. She’ll learn, poor her when she does. Just try to put it past you. Work on helping yourself get through this, and you will. You cannot fix everything with them, there is no way. Move on and forget about them.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:52pm
hopeful6596 says:
Timeheals:
Thank you so much, too. That’s why I am here. Because everybody here has gone through the same thing. And I don’t think there is anyone here or anywhere that has been involved with a true SPath, and has any story that they ever really changed. I do know that is just isn’t possible…and yet….you know the drill. For some reason, it’s especially hard tonight. Thank you, again. I appreciate it
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:57pm
sherry winter says:
I am so tired of the abuse I recieved from my sociopath defining who I am, but it does. It takes a long time to heal, and no one really understands that hasn’t experience a p/s abuse. I have CPTSD, from almost 3 yrs of being exposed to his lies, and forgiving over and over again… thinking it was ME that was messed up… and then finally coming to grips that he didn’t care if I lived or died.
To reduce the triggers in my every day life that cause terrible flashbacks and suicidal thoughts, I’m having to find a new job, and have given up some groups and hobbies I really loved. All in the attempt to rid myself of the nightmares and daymares.
I too have thoughts of revenge and hope he dies a terrible death that will expose him to the world I have known as the sociopath he really is. But I’m realistic… like the song says, only the GOOD die young, and HE IS NOT!
He took me from a good marriage that was just going through a tough spot. After all, that’s what sociopaths do well, spot someone when they are weak and hurting. My ex remarried on the rebound just a few months later, so there is NO going back. I have remarried, and though there is no romance in the marriage, he really is the friend that the ex s/p pretended to be. I find I have created a SAFE place in his home to try and rest as I slowly heal. Still, even this new life is defined by what the sociopath did to me. I am painfully aware that I would not be here, in this house, or in the position at work, if it wasn’t for what the sociopath did to me, and the many MANY people who have chosed to believe HIM, because the TRUTH is too painful, or simply doesn’t play into what they WANT!!!
I get some relief. I don’t think of my hatred, or my pain 24/7 any more, but every day, some part of the day I will start crying because my life is a shaddow of what it once was. Or simply cry because I used to trust people and I don’t any more. Or cry because I don’t know who I am any more. Maybe the worse is knowing that I can go back to my old job because I would be forced to watch the sociopath prey on other inocent women, and because I have refused I am marked as a trouble maker, and have no future there.
Do you know how hard it is to be labled a trouble maker, when you have been a peace maker your whole life? There are half a dozen women in that office that he has abused, and used, but I’m the only one that had a nervous break down that in time turned into CPTSD.
Some times I wonder if I will carry this neon sign as long as I live, that says, “my life was ruined by the one I loved the most!” I am scared, and yet struggling to make some kind of life I can look forward to. The flash backs and nightmares are the worse, because you can’t really control them.
I have found my “version” of forgiveness for my sociopath, but it’s not really so much forgiveness as understanding his illeness. He is a sociopath, therefore since that IS WHAT AND WHO he is, what he did to me was mild. There are others he did worse to, so the fact that I was so easy to take advantage of, and he restrained himself even a little, is something I supose.
I will not truly forgive him ever… and that in itself is something someone who has always had a big heart and able to forgive, is hard to do and painful it its own way.
He is a sociopath… and if he hadn’t been raised by his father to feed of the good will of women around him, he might have chosen to be the next Ted Bundy… It could have been worse, I might have actually killed myself, one of those times I tried when I was with him.
I am so ready to be freed from the nightmare he brought into my life, but every day, and every moment, I remember I am HERE and not the trusting soul I once was, and that I will never have the life back that he stole from me. I can build a new life, and I’m working on that… but nothing will ever replace the life that I had.
I can get a new job, or so I hope, so that I will not have to watch him victimize others with managaments protection if not approval, but it will always be the job I got because I HAD TO to stay sain, and not because I had ever wanted to move on.
I simply wonder every day… will who I am NOW ever be who I want to be, or will I always be defined by the devistation he did to my life, and to my heart?
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:58pm
to innocent to know says:
Amen timeheals, he did say he loved me but the words were lacking! Other than that, same story!.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 7:31pm
to innocent to know says:
love your blog, Sherry!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 7:33pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
hopeful6596
Your sociopath might be “happy” with the new partner but she will be the loser in the end too unless she is more disordered than he is.
The choice they have is not to be what they are it is to do a specific hurtful act.
If you search through my past posts, you will see that I have written before on the topic of people worrying that the S is going on with life “happy.” What you are going through is very common.
Try to focus your attention on yourself, your health/recovery and your real loved ones. Things will get better for you over time if you try to move on.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 8:01pm
hopeful6596 says:
Dr. Leedom,
Thanks for your response. I am just beginning to snap out of the depression and getting the perspective that I really need to start caring for myself and getting on with my life. I also just read your post, “A Deepr Understanding of Love, ourselves and the Sociopath. Crystal clear. Thanks for the reminder.
Hopeful~
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 8:24pm
bird says:
I relapsed a few weeks back, and I looked at his facebook page. I had a horrible dream that night because he portrays the perfect life. He is lies…nothing he ever says on a public forum is true. The truth is in her facebook page, which she has protected so I can’t access it anymore (thankgod!). I know in my heart that I won and she lost, because he is living with her. When he left, I looked at him and said “the worst thing I could do to her, is send you to her.” He looked at me and smiled; he enjoyed that I would want to do her harm; and further, that he was the harm.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 10:46pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Bird,
It is sometimes easy for us to “relapse” and have emotional contact with them even without physical contact–especially in times of stress.
I realized recently that my over-reaction to my son C’s lie to me was because I was already stressed from the documents I had to read and go over in the preparation for my P-son’s upcoming parole hearing. It was a form of contact with P-son. Sure, my son C shouldn’t have lied to me, and I no longer trust him, and do not want him living in my house, but the absolute “melt down” I had over it was I am sure, made worse by the stress from the parole hearing which caused a form of “contact” by going over those letters he wrote to his Trojan Horse psychopath on how to manage our family to get me out of my own home or if all else failed to kill me.
I’m currently at my best friend’s house or at her cabin in West texas and just relaxing some. I need the time to chill out. I am having night mares every night about people hunting me to hurt me, or interacting with my son C, but I’m doing some better since I (with my doctor’s okay) raised the dose of my antidepressants.
I’ll get through this mess, just like I have gotten through all the rest of the mess.
Sure, Hopeful, Sherry Winters, and others, it takes TIME and we may never be exactly the same person we were before the betrayal, but different doesn’t have to be “bad” it CAN be “better”!!!! ((((hugs you all))) and always my prayers!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 11:17pm
PiNOW says:
What a great insight. To me, forgiveness means understanding of the reasons why the hurt occured, seeing it from the other person’s point of view and accepting their reality. I did forgive. Once. Twice. Three times. Each time, more hurt followed. The P will continue to hurt as long as the door is open. But, when the door shuts in their face, they are just that – pathetic beings, not worthy of the thought. In great times, and bad times – never forgive a P. Forgiveness is for those who learn from their mistakes, and these ones don’t want to.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 11:28pm
bird says:
Oxdover,
I hope the seperation you have, will give you the clarity you need to make the decisions you need to make. I am sorry you are dealing with what you are. I know your nightmares well, because I have had them as well. You are a strong mama, and you do what is best because only you know for sure. I wish you the best with caring. Do you have a dog? Get a big one!!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 11:33pm
alohatraveler says:
Dear Sherry Winter,
I just saw you post. This is the first one I have seen because I don’t spend as much time here as I used to. I just wanted to speak to you from where I sit now… I am 4.5 years past my “Bad Man”experience.
That is a tough question you ask…
Will you always define your life by this moment in time?
Maybe. Probably. That’s okay.
An experience with a Sociopath is very very painful, violating and confusing. It changes how we see the world and at first we will feel as if we can trust no one and it makes us angry…. “Gee, I used to be so trusting! Now I don’t trust anyone! I am so angry!”
But what is wonderful now, from where I sit, is that I do trust.. when trust is warranted. Aha! Sometimes, I even take my trust back if evidence shows that an adjustment needs to be made. And that’s okay! You know what? I feel a little safer in the world somehow.
I have grown up tremendously. I wasn’t taking care of me before. I was taking care of everyone else.. and their feelings and their crapola. If someone beat me up and then told me it was my fault, I would have believed them and then tried to fix myself so they wouldn’t have to chew me out or treat me bad again. What the heck?
Since the Bad Man, I have learned that other people’s behavior is not all about me anymore. It’s about them. I didn’t know that before. Also, these days, I am more of an observer than a reactor.
So, will you always define your life with a division? Before Bad Man vs. After Bad Man? Probably, but it’s okay.
It is a long journey and this lesson is one you will carry for a long time. It’s the hardest times that give us the most knowledge. I suspect that as you heal and move along the road, you will eventually find that your life is better. Mine is better now, and I am not talking about fancy cars and perfect relationships. I rent a room from some friends and I drive my poor old car that I have sent on 4 trips across the ocean. But my life is better.
What I have now that I didn’t have before is me. I have me in a way that I never thought possible.
Anyway, I don’t know if anything I am saying is making sense to anyone but me.
I just wanted to acknowledge your pain and hurt right now and tell you that I have been down that street. It does get better and you will continue to heal and grow. Be open to the possibility that life can continue to get better and a life you never imagined awaits you. I know how it feels to be mad about what you gave up… I gave up my dreams of living in the islands because I let a psycho Bad Man stalk me and torture me practically from the moment I set foot on the island. I take responsibility for that too. I know for sure I will never do something like that again…
Final answer: I do define m life by what happened to me. I see a distinct line of demarcation in the development of my character. If I were a tree and you cut me in half and looked at my rings, you would see a lot of rain in those years. It’s all good now though.
This experience will change the course of you but in a few years, maybe you will have the same experience I am having… that you will see it was for the better and greater good in some way. I hope I am right. And believe me, I do not mean to diminish your pain in anyway. I totally get it… and I totally get that people don’t get it. I gave up on that a long time ago… that is why we have LOVEFRAUD. :O)
All the best… E
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 11:44pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Sherry Winter,
I want to echo what alohatraveler wrote you. It will get better.
Healing from these relationships becomes transformational after a certain point. We become better than we were before, stronger, more certain, wiser about our own lives. For many of us, the healing triggers more healing of older issues as well, relieving many layers of PTSD.
It sounds like you are taking steps for your own wellbeing, and that you have both personal and therapeutic support. That’s good.
You have every right to be angry about what happened to you. You are learning how to take better care of yourself in the future. And that is really, really good.
A lot of what we have to get over is what we did to ourselves. But we do get over it, because we come to realize that we were dealing with seductive, but heartless people. We might have been able to change what happened by saying no earlier, but we couldn’t change them, no matter what we did. We don’t need to forgive them. But we do need to forgive ourselves.
Ultimately, as aloha says, you’ll get better in ways you can’t imagine now. There’s a lot of helpful material to read here. Stick around, and write more. We’re at all stages of healing, and you’ll find lots of support.
In the meantime, just be kind to yourself. Healing and getting all the good stuff out healing takes time. You’ve done a lot of work already. It will pay off for you.
Kathy
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:06am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, my thoughts are with you. I think your analysis makes a lot of sense. You’ve had a lot of deal with, and you’ve been so brave and careful. You didn’t need one more thing to make you feel unsafe and especially not now. I’m glad you’ve got this good friend, so you could get out of Dodge for a while.
If there is anything I can do to help — editing, phone calls, whatever — just get in touch.
A big hug –
Kath
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:22am
ErinBrock says:
Liane:
Great article.
I was told ‘early on’ that I need to forgive the S…..I just can’t grasp this……
I think my way of ‘forgiving’ is having the peace of mind and confidence that I KNOW something bad will happen to him, I am confident someone that does such harm to others is not coming out of this life skipping and whistling dixie…..by far!
I can let that idea ‘be’ and move forward…..
I have no desire to cause harm to him…..and I never have….because of how I feel about the universe doing it on behalf of all the chaos and pain he’s inflicted….on the world….not just us.
I have to say though…..I do take some solice at how he is in misery…..losing everything and feeling jilted. I take some sick ‘power’ over him and continue to when he thinks he can play me for a fool. Each time I can ’shut him down and out’…..I giggle when I think about it…..as if…..and YOU thought I was stupid….
MY revenge was taking everything…..and leaving him only with his million dollars plus in drug/dirty money…..
I WORKED my ass off for 28 years and I wasn’t going to be taken for my hard work too…..
I know it kills him to know we are fine, moving on, rebuilding, and working the business….shoveling the snow ourselves and still in our home. He wanted us destitute and me dead!
He got NEITHER!
This is satisfying to me……VERY SATISFYING!
But forgiveness….I just don’t see it in me……and I won’t give him my soul……I allow this situation to empower me and I see all the various lessons!
NOT bring me down!!!
Maybe one day I might feel differntly…..or at least indifferent…this is the closest I see to forgiveness….with him.
BTW…I have forgave numerous people in my life….and I got to a place where I forgave AND forgot……it wasnt worth the space…..
YET…..I’m not convinved I can do this with the S….OR my parents!
WHO KNOWS?
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:42am
ErinBrock says:
Oxy:
“it takes TIME and we may never be exactly the same person we were before the betrayal, but different doesn’t have to be “bad” it CAN be “better”!!!! ”
I second that……I am soooooo NOT the same person I was…..and I am thankful for that…..I (wish) it didn’t have to be so tragic a journey to these lessons and growing up…..But I really do think it was necessary.
I look at my life now……
I have great friends….true/honest/genuine relationships…..
I have been able to weed my garden of fakes thus far…whether they are family or friends….
I don’t have to be nice just to be nice…..
I also have been empowered…..and I feel like I can do anything…..(well???) But I have confidence I had as a kid….prior to being broken down. I know my worth and I know my value to my community and my kids.
My worth will never again hedge on someone else’s opinions…..
So….I agree….different is just different….not bad….BETTER!!!
New and improved….AND APPROVED!!! (by me)
Oxy….you sound like your digging deep…..and processing….
There is more enlightenment on your educated horizon…..
I have confidence you’ll be okay….just keep heading down the same path your on!
XXOO
EB
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:57am
geminigirl says:
Dearest oxy, Just to say I love you and hang in there, babe! I am still somewhat in shock re the revelation my older D stole A$62,000 from the former co. she worked for, and ‘laundered ‘ it thru the Nature Mag, where she hada great job. now I know why the nature mag fired her. what is it with these people? They do such insane things! Someone wrote,”They shit in their own nest”, and its true! I am in despair. I know I cant contact her, her ex h. says.,M, she will NEVER apologise, and she will NEVEr change. An apology would mean NOTHING anyway, except a way to try to con me again, so it would be totally worthless.I still cant believe I gave birth to a thief, but as you saud, :If she can steal and defraud her own Mother, she can do it to anyone!” you are so right. Im so thankful to God for my wonderful husband, and new “kids” Hang in there, darling, we all love you. {{HUGS!!!}}} Gem.XX
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:15am
ErinBrock says:
Hi Mamma Gem……
I’ve missed my late night rendesvous with you darling….
Weve got to hang in there huh…..
Your a beautiful woman!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:23am
midlifecrisis says:
I have changed my name – some big things happened in the last few days and I now know for a fact the P is out to get me. So you posters knew me as someone sunny and optimistic who said no more to that – I’ll edit this reference once it’s been up for a while. I have been editing my comments carefully. Sorry to do this to everyone but I just can’t take any risks at the moment. He is out for my blood – not literally you understand, but he wants to destroy me and take everything. It seems revenge is his number one obsession now and the spotlight is firmly on me. Yay! As if I haven’t been through enough.
I have wondered as well whether I will always be defined as someone who survived a hell relationship with a P – it saddened me to realise that going back to who I was is impossible knowing what I now know. Thanks to those of you who said they are somewhat defined by the experience. I see it as a line in the sand as well … before that I was this person … and after it = well I still don’t know quite who I am yet!
Aloha and Erin and Kathleen and others … I hope I can get to that point where I am ok with it. And be really appreciative of the self knowing it has brought me. Right now though I am still struggling with the unfairness of it all – that he got to do whatever the heck he wanted (and still does) while I am left being the responsible one who takes the upper road and shows maturity and class. He slanders me behind my back and … that’s ok with society – ‘just ignore it’ seems to be the advice I am being given.
How can I ignore such injustice that totally blew my reality, personality, values, goodness and worldview out of the water? I don’t even have a metaphor for it – it is that huge. I want to be able to say – ‘It would be like losing every limb to a partner who ate them while I was conscious and aware … and I am meant to just ‘forget about it’ and ‘move on’ WTF That isn’t even close though – it’s more like a heart removal and burning, a brain torture with a drill and a brainwashing from a sect all combined … and even that doesn’t come close.
How can this exist in society and nobody does anything about it? Worse than that nobody even acknowledges the damage he did! Or recognises the wounds. And this cannibal that he is gets to be the big Mr Wonderful to the outside world. The injustice of it all makes me want to vomit and scream.
I can’t and won’t forgive him. For me forgiveness is only possible when the person who did wrong acknowledges what they did and the damage it caused, promises and follows through on never doing it again and makes some ammends. Not one of those actions is possible with him – so forgiveness is an impossibility and would be very wrong for me. I have had several people talk with me about ‘you need to forgive him’.
No I don’t. I need for him to get big tastes of his own medicine. I need for him to suffer really badly so he starts to understand what he did – probably even that is impossible – his suffering is an irritation not the depth plunging despair and grief that I suffered through. Sometimes I couldn’t even talk in trying to express it – I would scream and bellow like an animal. He doesn’t deserve forgiveness and I don’t think it’s doing me any harm in hanging onto that grudge for now.
The person I most need to forgive is myself. And I KNOW without a doubt I am taking those steps necessary for true contriteness and forgiveness – I am setting the ledger straight with myself first and foremost. I know my ‘I’m sorry’ is sincere and heartfelt. I know I won’t transgress against myself in this way again and I am trying to make ammends with myself by finding out at any given moment what my soul needs. It’s hard – I had forgotten how to listen to that voice – it’s irrational sometimes.
I had shut it down completely in trying to maintain this perfect facade of being in control of my life that everything was ‘fine’ – the pressure of it became far too much for me – especially when compared with the chaos of reality that he created around me. The dissonance was too much for me to reconcile.
I am seeing glimpses of that greater self knowing you talk about … but to be perfectly frank, I could have really done without this harsh learning. I would have been happier to have not met him and continued in my ignorance thinking the world was a great place and all people have some good in them.
I wonder sometimes if the ‘greater self knowing and what a blessing it is’ is just a story I tell myself to make me feel better about being so used and abused. That if I yet again look for the silver lining and make lemonade out of lemons then I won’t feel so dumb and bitter and jaded and tarnished. I just don’t know which is more honest at the moment and whether I’d rather just tell myself a few soothing lies for now. Anyone else have that doubt from time to time? Is that thought just a stage or part of the process? It comes and it goes – I am still quite up and down, two steps forward and three back at times.
I want to see laws against this – I want SOMETHING done about these people. It’s no good for lawmakers and politicians to rub their hands in s ympathy and say ‘Well we don’t really know what causes it and we don’t know what to do’ – while they stand around deliberating thousands more GOOD people are being annhiliated by these monsters – it’s not good enough. The VERY LEAST they could do is mount and fund an extensive public education campaign.
And hey I am all for diversity in humans and ‘we all have our faults’ but these people don’t harm themselves – they harm everybody else. Our leaders have let us down in not preparing us for enslaughts with these idiots and not providing support for us. Why are we being discriminated against in this way? Every other victim in society has stronger people to advocate for them, to fundraise, to heighten awareness … why don’t we? Apart from this blog and a few others … there is nothing. Unless you count women’s refuges … and how many of us got help from there? I was afraid to go there for help as it would be taking resources (which are already pitiful) away from women and men in physically abusive relationships. I know many others are the same.
My mind keeps coming back to wanting to do something … healing by itself in isolation isn’t enough – I want some form of social justice and some change so this doesn’t happen as easily to someone else. I feel like I fell through the cracks in society I never knew existed.
As to choice – after much reading and pondering – yes I think they make the choice to abuse us. Based on what evidence? They don’t abuse everyone else usually – the abuse is kept covert and behind closed doors so their charming facade isn’t besmirched. If they really couldn’t help it – they would be the same with everyone. It makes me sick to consider that concept – that he deliberately and with forethought and malice thought up ways to hurt me and carried them out. My brain and heart don’t want to believe it but that is the harsh truth. Therefore they are a problem and shouldn’t be walking around free in society with equal rights as normal people have.
They don’t deserve any rights. They should all be jailed for life as soon as they’re diagnosed. Sterilised and some use found for them for the betterment of society. That would be preferable to them USING all of us who try to love and support and do the right things even when nobody is watching us.
Bah! I am hormonal and icky today
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 5:13am
swallow says:
I don’t feel I need to forgive the P. For there to be forgivness, there has to be some acknowledgment of the pain that has been caused and as we all know a P is not able to do this or if he/she does, takes pleasure in inflicting the pain.
I have however forgiven someone who does deserve it – ME!
After this rollercoaster recovery, I understand enough to forgive myself. I was a target, I had weaknesses and vulnerabilities which allowed him into my life BUT I am not a thief, liar or con artist. That is his problem.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 5:17am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Sometimes English is inadequate to the task, particularly when describing emotion.
Much has been made of the fact that most languages have many more words to describe Love than our does.
Perhaps we need more words to describe “Forgiveness” as well. After all, the forgiveness we offer normal people who err and repent is very different from the kind of forgiveness one offers a sociopath, who hurts us on purpose and will hurt us again at the very next opportunity.
I cannot help but remember the last time a sociopath tried to offer me one of those goofy pseudo-apologies. It began with “I’ve been having a lot of trouble with my pain medications lately…”
It was all I could do not to roll my eyes in derision. He’d been stoned out of his gourd for months. When high, he’d become belligerent, irrational, aggressive and paranoid. There’d been no reasoning with him, and the toxic waste that had spewed from his mouth had done a great deal of damage to our organization.
He saw the tight expression on my face, and new instantly that this hackneyed ploy wasn’t going to get him out of the necessity for genuine repentance. That, he’d never offer. He stalked off, and hasn’t bothered me much since.
That doesn’t mean I’ve been sitting around stewing in my own bile either. If I did, I’d get sick. I fully recognize that my desire to “help” him was misguided. No matter what he said, he never sincerely wanted to pull himself together and realize his immense potential. He just wanted another dupe. He did me a favor, and I’m grateful. By observing him over the course of several years, I learned more than anyone cares to about sociopaths and their ploys.
He still operates on the fringe of my social circle, and he’s still immensely popular. People fall for his act hook, line and sinker. As a rule, very little harm results. I couldn’t care less.
He’s the 2nd cluster B to cut a swath of destruction through my social life. Right before him was a malignant narcissist. Between the two of them, I’ve been thoroughly innoculated against drama.
I learned that most lies are not direct falsehoods, but rather elaborate acts where the dupe comes to a false conclusion without the liar actually having to make a false statement. I also learned to be instantly suspicious whenever pity is being used to manipulate me. Because of these lessons and countless others, I’ve thwarted play after play from the two cluster Bs who operate on the fringes of my family life.
So really and truly, I bear the narcissist and the sociopath no malice whatsoever. They’re textbook cases of social failure. They exist to model their disorders, so that anyone ready to study their illness can learn from their example.
Forgiving a normal person means putting what s/he did wrong in it’s proper perspective. Yes, s/he did hurt us, but s/he’s sorry. S/he know what s/he did was wrong, s/he empathizes with our pain, and s/he is going to try hard to do better in the future.
Perhaps forgiving a sociopath also means putting what s/he did in perspective. S/he hurt us, and s/he wishes we’d forget all about it. S/he knows what s/he did was wrong, and is amused by our pain. S/he can’t wait to do it again, just as soon as we drop our guard.
In the first case, it’s sensible to give the repentant person another chance. In the second case, it’s time to cut your losses.
In neither case does it make sense to stew about it.
Forgiveness for ourselves is another matter entirely, because we have to do the work of both the repentant and the forgiver. This is a pretty messy thing. On one hand, we see that we fouled up by trusting someone we clearly should not have trusted, ***usually*** again. Of course, we feel our own pain, our own sincere regret and our genuine desire to do better. The trouble is, we quite reasonably wonder if we can do better in the future. We don’t trust ourselves not to foul up again. We need some kind of reassurance that we can acquire the new skills or habits necessary to avoid making the same mistakes over and over again.
Of course forgiving yourself is a difficult thing. It’s at least twice the work as forgiving someone else. Besides, both your repentant party and your wounded party are privy to every doubt and fear the other half experiences. It’s enough to make you nuts, but I probably don’t have to tell you that. If you’re reading this, chances are you already know.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 6:46am
ErinBrock says:
“They’re textbook cases of social failure. They exist to model their disorders, so that anyone ready to study their illness can learn from their example. ”
I like that…..EC…..well put!!!
Thanks!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 7:15am
ErinBrock says:
Midlife…..
Even though I have NO IDEA who you are……
YOU WILL GET TO THE POINT of faith!!!
I wanted to do a loreana Bobbit on the S…..in the beginning…..train a tiger shark and let it loosse in hawaiian waters to attack him……not kill him….just maime him…..really badly and permanently…… (although this thought may still exist…..I think it may be impossible to train a tiger shark!!!)
After time…..and reading and becoming connected to how MY life has turned out and all the puzzle pieces etc…..
It may appear he’s doing well….and I’m sure if you met him today….you’d be convinced for a bit he’s got it going on…….
BUT I KNOW DIFFERENTLY!!!!!!
I know he has diareah.
I know he has NO relationship with his kids.
I know he lost the best thing that he will EVER have as a wife….(and I say thing….because tha’ts how they view us)
I know he lost all tangible assets and property and businesses…..except his drug sales operation……
I know he has to be covert in all his dealings.
I know he has an IRS audit on the horizon…..(that I won’t keep quiet on!)
I know he has the DEA watching him.
I know he has a shitty relationship with HIS family.
I know he’s been exposed and needs to keep on the run.
Now….what he’d show YOU……
He pays cash, insinuating he’s got money…..
He travels extensively…..(runs) which he portrays as being flown by ‘clients’ to all destinations across the us and bahamas….
He doesn’t have a car….Yet he drives nice, new fancy cars he claims are his….but they are ‘friends’ he cons.
He claims to own a farm in Hawaii….yet he rents from an old lady room mate…..he just grows pot on the land…..
He will cook you the best meal you’ve ever had….and you will be so enthralled you will never know he is way too cheap to take you out to dinner.
He’ll even have the rose petals and champagne, blender drinks and dessert……and YOU will be whoood…..
You will be whood in to sex early in relationship…..yet he will never tell you he fucks men and has herpes and whatever else…..
you might think he’s such a good catch…..you won’t mind him not wearing a condom….and winding up preggers…..
but you’ll think he’s a great father when your child is an infant and can’t speak or have a ‘mind’ of his own……I did! Wait until they develope independance….that’s when You’ll already by so hooked in and the abuse will start them…..you’lll reminisce about the ‘past’ wonderful years…..and think you can change him…..
The only problem is…..He’s all a fake!!!!
A SOCIAL FAILURE!!!
So knowing this…to my core……
He won’t be able to walk the universe without repurcussions of all the bad he’s done… He just won’t!
So…..once you find that peace…..through education and knowing what your dealing with…..and how to move along…..
You can move along to YOU….back to YOU……and leave him to the SHARKS, or the falling trees, or the out of control tractor tailors on a mountain road, or ………!!!!! It just won’t be up to you!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 7:33am
Renewedhope says:
One of the signs of a sociopath is:
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core.
This I believe it where all their aggression comes from. They may not have the emotion of love,but hate? In buckets full! And according to the definition above it’s that deep seeded repressed hatred that is at the core.
My S woman even whispered to my back while laying in bed those three words”I Hate YOU!” and she did it more than one time over a span of three months. I shrugged it off as she must have said it in her sleep or if she did say it awake didn’t direct it at me. But looking back at her mental abuse of cheating on me, walking out on me, game playing;I am certain the only way she could have done those things was through a deep seated hatred for me. In the 27 years of our friendship/3 love trysts she had to hate me. How could she do the things she did without hating me?
This last time she knew I was married and crossed the boundaries from friendship to carrying on(with me) a 2 month non sexual emotional affair over the phone and emails. She initiated it this time with a lie saying she thought she was dying. She knew even as a friend that I loved her and I”Had to tell her” before she died that I loved her and always had.” She took that and ran with it. I don’t blame her exclusively for my part of the affair. But she led me into this (again) by manipulation. What real FRIEND could that? If she really valued my friendship 1) She would not have lied about “dying”2) would not have manipulated me to cross that boundary from friend to emotional lover knowing I was married.
all this I believe because she knew about me coming into my dad’s inheritance soon and she wanted some of it.
Forgive her for 27 years of anguish? Nope. Not now. Because SHE KNEW what she was doing all this time. While I kept thinking she still cared about me and somehow would “Change” with age. A sociopath doesn’t change. I know that now. So as of this second, I forgive myself for my emotional adultery. It shouldn’t have happened but it did. At least I didn’t travel 580 miles to carry the affair out in the bedroom. I have some grace saved there. And some grace left in my heart because before I didn’t know what I was dealing with. Now I do!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 7:39am
changedforever says:
I wanted but I found so hard to forget and forgive this person. I find myself praying everyday for God to punish him for all he did to me and I know I’m not a resentful person at all. I forget and forgive so easily but in this case it has been a battle for me to do so. When I look at myself and my feelings of revenge, resentment and hate towards him
sometimes I feel ashamed of myself, but at the same time I think that for sure I was not dealing with a normal human being but with an “evil entity”, because I’ve never had this type of feelings with no one before.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear Elizabeth Connely,
I agree with you that there should be “multiple words” to describe “forgiveness” and I think of the one my “egg donor” used, of “let’s pretend that this didn’t happen”—-YEA, RIGHT!
“Let’s pretend what I/they did to you did not devastate, hurt beyond measure and rip you apart, and oh, BTW, let’s pretend that I/they won’t do this to you again!”
Forgiveness and “approval” or “trusting” do not always go together. I will never approve of what someone does that hurts me, and I will tell them that. If they DO care about me, they will discuss this with me, and do their best to not do it in the future. If they are NOT interested in discussing this, acknowledging what I have said, shown an awareness of the fact that the behavior is hurtful, etc. and stop doing it, then I can only assume that they do not care about me. Therefore, I am not going to trust this person again. I will “forgive” them, (in other words get the bitterness and rancor and wrath out of my heart) but doesn’t mean I will trust them, or care for them like I did before the abusive behavior.
Of course, if the person doing the abusive behavior is someone whose relationship you value, the wound will be doubly painful because you not only are hurt by the behavior but by the loss of your illusion that this person also loved you as you cared for them.
When we set a boundary, such as “If you lie to me I will no longer trust you” when and if the person DOES lie to you, and you enforce that boundary after X-number of lies show a pattern, then you must be prepared for the relationship to be lost. It hurts.
I think I could have forgiven my late husband if he had cheated on me once, and I think I could have learned to trust him again, but I could NOT have ever learned to trust him after the second cheat. That was my “break point” in a relationship even back in my enabling days.
Now, with those close to me, any deception (other than hiding a birthday present or something like that) is a DEAL BREAKER, any LIE and those that are close to me know this….and sure, when someone you love lies to you, destroys your trust, it hurts like HELL (the more you loved them the more it hurts) and having lost so many of those I loved to deception, abuse and so on, each one hurts as much or more than the last one, but I do not second guess myself about being able to trust this person even if they do try to convince me they won’t do it again. I am looking at the BIG PATTERN as Steve’s recent article pointed out, looking at the pattern of their deceptions, their abuses of me or others, and if the pattern is there, the relationship as far as I am concerned is gone. I’ll do my grieving and move on.
EC, your comments are always great! (((hugs))))
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:01am
style1 says:
Renewed,
I always knew that mine was betting on the come from what was going to come from my family..
I think there are many people that do that that aren’t romantically interested, but that are otherwise interested and looking for something…
They have their agenda and will bahave how they need to get what it is that they want.. they aren’t genuine in their motives, emotions, actions or anything else.. It is all for show and gain… they aren’t genuine.. and that is what I have become so aware of.. in all levels of life…
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:08am
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlifecrisis – i really do think it is a gift. really.
#1 it brought me here, to these people and these resources. i couldn’t get this anywhere else
#2 i have cut off family who dearly needed cutting off because of my understanding of N/S/P now
#3 i see my dream – and as PAINFUL as that is, in light of how i saw it, what was given and then yanked out of my nervous system – it means that i can look at new ways of making it happen. use some of that risk taking stuff and go after what i want
#4 i feel blessed that there are so many creative people on lf, and successful ones. i think there are some models and mentors here for me, AND that is a HUGE resource for me in terms of focusing on myself and my life.
#5 i now accept that their is evil in the world, and it’s not ‘out there’. my highest wish is that i move away from it now, the moment i see it
#6 it’s making me more analytical again, and more caring of my own safety, and less impulsive.
just a bit, but i do think there is a gift in it for me. i will use this, it’s huge and it is a catalyst for me to go deep and succeed.
you said ‘No I don’t. I need for him to get big tastes of his own medicine. ‘ i hear ya girl!
one step
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:14am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Midlife, you’re getting great responses here. I just have a little bit to add.
You wrote: “I would have been happier to have not met him and continued in my ignorance thinking the world was a great place and all people have some good in them.”
I think that you will eventually fall in love with the world again. It is a great place. Not without its dangers, but also full of beauty, opportunity and insight. And you will be wiser about all that, because you will be more alert to the dangers, more skilled at handling them, and more aware of the full breadth of your capabilities to handle the good and the bad.
You may also come to realize that there is good in everyone, but in some people it’s been so effectively locked away that it might as well be dead. They are tragedies and they are also dangerous. And you probably will develop the capacity to understand both things — the tragedy and the danger — and to respond appropriately to people you can’t heal and who offer nothing but a bottomless hunger to suck resources out of other people’s lives.
You wrote: “I wonder sometimes if the ‘greater self knowing and what a blessing it is’ is just a story I tell myself to make me feel better about being so used and abused.”
I think we all feel like that, once we’ve encountered the idea that we might just get more out of this than the losses, but we’re not really there yet. It takes a while to get through counting up our losses, judging the other person as the cause of them, and getting our anger on right. During that period, it’s a pretty dream that this is going to work out well for us, but not really credible.
One of the things that helped me hold onto the idea was when I got really angry about the fact that the whole game had been set up for me to lose. And I just made up my mind that this MF was not going to win. Whatever he got from me, I was going to get a whole lot more out of him. And part of that was wanting revenge. But I knew that revenge, in the end, wasn’t going to give me back the money or the years or everything else I lost in this relationship. He changed his life on my back. I was going to change my life on his. I didn’t know exactly how, but I was going to make these losses investments in my life, not his. And they were investments that were going to pay off for me!
You wrote: “My mind keeps coming back to wanting to do something … healing by itself in isolation isn’t enough – I want some form of social justice and some change so this doesn’t happen as easily to someone else.”
I’m with you there. And though I have come to think that the best thing I can do is to help victims heal, because I have a vision of victimhood as a kind of global problem that needs to be addressed by helping people regain their understanding of their own power, there is a lot of other work that needs to be done. Education, changes in law, attention to social issues like family welfare, etc.
I know that there is a lot of discussion on this board about the genetic issues around sociopathy. I know they provide comfort to parents of sociopaths, but they frustrate me because they divert us from the larger social issues. We live in a world that dominated by sociopathic interests. They are a small minority, and we have the power to stop it. To fight for compassion, fairness, justice. Predators are short-sighted, because they are focused on short-term profit. People who care are not. They look ahead at the outcome of legal policies, business practices, social values and the everyday manifestations of these things on the common good.
And the voices of everyday people can make a difference. I work in PR, and I know how possible it is to move mountains. I’ve moved a few myself. Most of all, it takes speaking up, having a point of view and expressing it. There is a book called “The Starfish and the Spider” that I have recommended many times here. It is about how effective movements are started, and one of the most powerful truths in it is that, if we speak up, we attract our natural allies. The other people who care about the same thing. And this is how groundswells are built.
A lot of people here talk about how hard it is to find someone how understands or is willing to listen. My theory on this is that, as long as we are looking for understanding, we’re asking something from other people and they feel it and back away. And often the people who back away are the people who are struggling with the same issues, but trying not to let them take over their lives.
When we start talking our own truth, the dynamic changes. We are giving them something, which they can take or not. But for our natural constituency, the ones who are ready to become aware of victimhood or who are struggling to articulate the meaning of their own experiences, it becomes easier for them to say, “I know what you’re talking. I think it’s wrong too.”
Which means that we can’t really make changes until we’re solid with ourselves. When we’re not longer apologizing, or hating ourselves for our mistakes, or feeling like outcasts or like there’s something wrong with us. I used to feel like that about being an incest survivor, until I learned the numbers. And then I learned to say, “My father raped me for years.” Because I refuse to participate in the dirty little secret that keeps so many people in shame. If they try to tell me how sorry for they are for me, I shut them down, and tell them that one of every ten people they meet comes from the same background. It’s an epidemic, and the next time they go get a flu shot, maybe they could give a thought to what they’re going to do about protecting their kids or the kids next door.
Some people think I sound angry. Sometimes when you tell the truth, especially if it’s a truth other people don’t want to hear, they put on their la-la-la hats, because it’s easier to be oblivious. That’s especially true of people who have their own secrets. The truth is, of course I’m angry, as you are, but not just about what happened to me. I’m angry because the numbers aren’t changing and because what’s known about the causes of incest, just like what is known about precipitating factors (that are not genetic) about affective disorders like sociopathy are not driving changes in public policy. I’m also an attractive, successful, smart, articulate person who respects herself. So when I walk away, I leave them with something that may not click that day, but it will click someday when sexual abuse affects their lives, as it inevitably will, one way or another.
Midlife, it takes courage to be a catalyst. But one of things we learn from this recovery is that every person’s life is a creative event. We affect the world just by being here. The way we affect it reflects what is important to us. We don’t have control of everything. We don’t know where everything we do is going to lead. But the power we do have is to infuse the dominoes we tilt over with our own spirits and wills. We can choose the direction we push them in, and that make a big difference, especially when more and more of us start pushing them in the same direction.
You wrote: “Bah! I am hormonal and icky today.”
I say, take advantage of it. I’ve always believed that I got my best thinking done during hangovers and PMS. These are your own internal dominoes you’re tilting now, making choices about new directions, testing how it feels when you try new feelings and perspectives. You’re learning, and you’re learning the most important thing, the first thing you have to learn before anything else is going to make sense. And that’s who you really are, what you’re capable of and what you care about.
I’m on the sidelines, cheering. Go for it!
Kathy
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:04pm
Hopeforfuture says:
Just got a text from my S that he never intended to hurt me, wants to be friends and that I was and always will be special! Of course, he never apologizes for all the lies and that HIS actions created all the hurt around him! Typical. I broke NC and slammed him, not that he cares but I wanted to vent. I did say no more contact and to leave me alone. I feel like I’m getting stronger, and yes, the anger and loss bubbles up but at least I see a light.
This site has been HUGE and right after laundry I’m going to get some of the books suggested as well as go back to Kathleen’s steps to recovery.
Thanks!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:21pm
style1 says:
Mine cut communication off from me when I slammed him with the truth..
I needed to vent and he shut it off.. it was all to real for him..
He did respond that I must’ve never really seen who that he is because he is a guru…
And that it was me that messed it all up ..
yeah… right!
He postured that he was so above me…
then when I really shared my feelings with him.. he wrote back that he will not be reading or responding to me..
I bet he has found another mark…
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:34pm
midlifecrisis says:
I am just about to head to work so will post in response to these wonderful posts tonight – thanks everyone – funny how a good night of sleep and some love from friends far away can change the perspective.
Many thanks once again – this site just refuels me and gives me strength to go on – no words can describe it adequately
Love you all!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:34pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlife – we just need to make a special place for erin for new names!
i’d be taking your above post down asap.
x one step
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:37pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Style – imagine if you could SEE HIM EXACTLY AS HE IS, EVERY LITTLE NOOK AND CRANNY of that fucked up mind! LOL, COUNT YOUR LUCKY STARS THAT YOU DIDN’T (COUGH) ‘UNDERSTAND HIM’.
Best,
one step
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:39pm
witsend says:
midlife,
gotcha…Now if I can only remember.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:49pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Me too. Nice to meet you again, midlife. It feels like reincarnation. Wow.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 4:02pm
lostingrief says:
psychopathy on House … now!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 8:16pm
midlifecrisis says:
Thanks everyone – a bit of change does us all good sometimes! And this is kind of a crisis at the moment and I am in my mid life so it’s not really untrue as such. Crisis is danger and opportunity mixed.
Kathy – a special thanks – you acknowledged my feelings as valid and pointed out a good path ahead that incorporates the good and the bad from this experience. I think I have been a bit all or nothing in my thinking before this – now I am aware of nuances and the ‘both and’ phenomenon – it’s being able to hold two opposing ideas in the same space at the same time and able to acknowledge t he truth in each of them.
I have lots more reading to do today … lots more delving into the past and no doubt it will be painful.
I agree with you I can’t change anything while not totally strong myself – I am still too attached to it all and emotionally involved with it. That’s the difference between educating people rationally and screaming about my own personal pain – one will get results and help the cause, the other damages it infinitely. So for now I remain silent while I continue to work on myself.
Hormonal cycles for me are painful reminders of everything I lost and the unchangeable passing of time and decay of everything. But they can also be generative periods of time where I get to a deeper place in thinking and feeling. So I take your advice and will do some journalling tonight later when it cools down. I tend to just write now and see what comes up without judging it – it seems to work for me – releases whatever is uppermost so I feel somewhat lightened in the load I am carrying.
I think I was sulking before about the ’story’ of personal development. I can see the good in the process and realise everyone will have had those doubts about the value of it. We have to find some meaning in what happened and retrieve some gold for ourselves from the experience – otherwise it was random and meaningless and I can’t live with that orientation. I have often asked why he was brought into my life at that time – and I see many valid reasons. I still maintain I could have done without it, but that is a useless comment. What is done is done and cannot be taken back. So I have to find a way to live with it all.
Off to do some things = may blessings shower down on all of you for your warmth, heartedness, love, caring and compassion.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:26pm
learnthelesson says:
midlifecrisis
“may blessings shower down on YOU for the warmth, heartedness, love, caring and compassion” that you have for others and most important… that you are relearning to give to yourself first and foremost! LTL
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:25am
ThePeregrine says:
I think this is a very important article, Dr. Leedom. Forgiveness is rightly thought to be an important part of the healing we require when wronged, but the wrongs committed by sociopaths are entirely different.
I do believe their actions are a matter of choice. I’ve come to believe that they are not necessarily intending to harm us, but the end result is always that they DO harm us because they have adopted coping strategies that place them above everyone else. Their fundamental life strategy views us as ultimately irrelevant, although they may strongly act otherwise when they see us as useful to them in some way. In most cases, I suspect we are not so much intended victims as “collateral damage.”
The fact remains that if you are enmeshed in a relationship with a sociopath (a love relationship, working relationship, or any other), in the long term or the short term you absolutely will get hurt. Having been harmed by a sociopath, I believe the resulting trauma requires us to choose between protecting ourselves and enduring permanent psychic damage. I protect myself.
All relationships for me now are about the enforcement of appropriate boundaries. It wasn’t always that way. And the boundary with a known sociopath is more like the Great Wall of China, while the boundaries with normal people tend to be something like a sawhorse or traffic barrier that can be moved at will.
Recognizing the difference between sociopaths and so-called “normal” people has been part of the learning process. There really aren’t many true sociopaths out there, but even one or two in your life can do an amazing amount of damage that can’t be undone.
I wish you all the strength and inner peace you deserve. Thank you, Dr. Leedom and all others who support people here at LoveFraud.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 8:52am
bulletproof says:
Dr Leedom
No….. for this survivor, forgiveness is not an option.
I passionately hold the possibility he will horribly injured out there one way or another, brutally attacked, natural disaster, road accident, comet from outer spacee,hopefully he will meet his mirror image in the form of a disgusting sexually transmitted disease, any other form of aggressive illness he cares to create because lets face it he creates horror.
Back on him every ounce of suffering!
I can hand him over to the great universal truth, hand him into the jaws of karma. He asked me once did I want payback, I said I leave pay back to God, he does it better than me. He was blatantly dissapointed I wasn’t going to go after him. What was painful for me was “nothing” to him. I will not be the one to get entangled in his bad energy, so I let him go. Never to get “away with it” but to spit him out as poison. I’d like to neutralise him, render him harmless failing that to get as far away from him as possible.
What gives me pleasure now is, he has lost all the “attention” from me, I smile when I think of him out there somewhere ploughing into the next nightmare…without me!!! yay! in my case no one died. Time to be grateful not bitter. But if I heard he had been killed horribly I would buy a bottle of champagne and party all night in absolute delight….what I’m saying is I would be absolutely thrilled with profound happiness to hear the news.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 9:03am
LouiseRosen says:
Forgiveness from a sociopath is not part of their makeup – unless they are trying to get back into our good graces, and in those cases, asking for forgiveness is just another lie in their ongoing agendae.
For a long time I grappled with ‘forgiveness.’ Forgiveness is part of closure, and closure is not part of their program either.
In the case of dealing with a sociopath, forgiveness is just an open door to let them malign us again.
How can we forgive someone when they don’t ask to be forgiven? We can’t. The option which is open to us is to forgive ourselves for our second-guessing, and eventually time will bring ‘forget’ and we move on.
The sociopath does not grow spiritually or become enlightened; they just move on to their next victim unaware and unfeeling of the devastation they create in people’s lives.
Caring and compassion are missing from their behaviors
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 9:53am
HeightofConfusion says:
Hi Everyone.
Thanks so much for the support. I really wasn’t exspecting so much so quick.
I think to start with I have to accept that I have a lot of issues contributing to why I am happy to be in such a crappy relationship (low self esteem etc) as this is not the first time, Infact with the lack of violence in the relationship this one has is better than my previous. I am reciving help for these issues – although I doubt it is doing much to be honest but at this point I am willing to try anything.
The other thing I feel I should say is that wether it’s because I am mad or just not ready I am not looking to end the relationship. I feel that he is all I have got and life pretty much wouldn’t be worth living without him. I suffer badly from depression and am just not prepared to do that to myself. I am determined to stick it out no matter what.
I also don’t think I would have to worry if I left him – I honestly don’t think he cares about me enough to bother hurting me.
Things are still the same with us anyway – he has been “away” for a while but is getting out in a few days and instead of looking forward to it I am now dreading it. He has pretty much made it clear that although I have done everything for him and all he has asked during the past 2 months he dosen’t want me around so much when he gets back. It always amazes me how he can jump from one extreme to another so damn quckily in the afternoon eveythings fantastic and its me and him against the world and by tea time he is screaming at me because I’m to clingy.
I guues I have just had a few realisations in the past few days of how NOT normal our relationship is, my friends all say I should be estatic at seeing him again but I’m dreading it cause I know what he will be like. They all laugh and joke at how i should “jump” him as soon as he walks in the door – I laugh along but think to myslef no I will be checking everything is clean enough for him so he won’t kick off and start an arguement (surely I shouldn’t be like this at 20?)
He stresses me out so much and the sick thing he knows he does it, its like a game to him. Again just another reminder of how much he means to me and how little I mean to him.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 10:10am
autisticsouls says:
Midlifecrisis wrote: “….And hey I am all for diversity in humans and ‘we all have our faults’ but these people don’t harm themselves – they harm everybody else. Our leaders have let us down in not preparing us for enslaughts with these idiots and not providing support for us. Why are we being discriminated against in this way? Every other victim in society has stronger people to advocate for them, to fundraise, to heighten awareness … why don’t we? Apart from this blog and a few others … there is nothing…”
i am an Aspie, with an autistic wife and child, and i was for the neurodiversity movement but realized i could not be supportive of a neurodiverse concept if it meant it would respect the ‘rights’ of psychopaths. for there to be a right to be respected same said rights should be respected in others. once those rights are violated any such ‘rights’ that the psychopath has should be forfeited. their whole nature is a crime against others and as such not worthy of respect of diversity. but should be looked upon as a cancer, or plague.
i like the term psychopath over sociopath, because for someone who has taken lifelong social skills classes and training ’socio’ sounds so very friendly and with all the destruction these individuals do in destroying lifes, children, sanity, one’s view of the world, innocence is lost, faith in people is rattled, the damage done is like a hundred deaths before the actual physical death…
because you actually die inside in many ways to many things and our future generations are affected by it. ‘nice guys’ finish last, children learn from a young age what it takes to get ahead. it warps everyones view of the world. people become jaded.
before i tried some other logic forming solution to my problem and escaped into my fiction story writing i had to deal with my rage, and pain and fears too. and i look around, i read, and altough this website blogsite is a great effort, there really isn’t much out there. i was looking into psychopaths in the school system, in the workplace so i didn’t think i belonged here on lovefraud, but there’ isn’t much out there at all really. no real awareness…
our social development, social harmony, social evolution is being f#%&ed with and there seems little to be done about it, because forget any real proactive solution to the problem when it isn’t even being acknowledged in the main frame unless in severe cases. there are so many autism sites, everywhere you go you will hear about autism, or breast cancer, or see pick ribbons, or puzzle ribbons, but it is nearly, unless you search all over, very little about what is affecting us all everyday, in schools, in the work place, in our business dealings, in marriages, families destroyed and little to nothing out there about why or ‘what’ is doing it.
i nearly feel we’ll never be able to go ahead in the direction we are all meant to be because this plague, this cancer will always be able to hold us back. and that gets me angry. a couple of nights ago i myself wallowed in my anger over my coworker by playing this little video over and over: The Pretender by the Foo Fighters..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw6o0BsNW6g
but while i entertained myself with the concept, revenge just wasn’t a logical move on my part as it might destroy me too, so that was entertained with all of ten hours total. i pray for swift justice, a sweet rapid karma but most of all a social revolution.
which isn’t coming soon enough from what it appears, lovefraud is great but there should be so much more of ‘this’ out there than this nobel but small effort.
i like the concept of Denmark the happiest place today with the lowest rate of ’sociopathy’
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....3797.shtml
Mike
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 10:53am
notagain says:
Forgiveness is how my ex kept getting his foot back in the door for a period of three years. I am a very forgiving person, usually too forgiving.
I think sociopaths, know and prey on this. They rely on our forgiveness of them, to keep playing their games. They feel safer in a relationship where they know their victim is BIG HEARTED, empathetic, understanding, and forgiving. I am all of those things, and it tends to attract these types of people to me.
What I need to forgive, is myself, for being SOOO BLIND, to the truth of the situation. I think I could say more accurately, IN DENIAL. I went back and forth, from denial, to truth, and back to denial again. To go back into denial, I had to forgive him, because “HE WAS JUST HAVING A DOWN RIGHT HARD TIME IN HIS LIFE.”
IT has been about four months since I have kicked him out. This time he has left the state, taking the business with him, that I payed for. He had something material this time, to lose, and he didn’t want to lose that. It was proof that he was capable of doing something with his life. Proof to his friends that he was ambitious, hard working, and TRYING to get his life together. If I didn’t tell his friends that I paid for what he took, they would have just thought he worked hard for the business himself, because that is what he lead people to believe.
It was a CONJOB, to be more honest. It was planned, he KNEW what he was doing, and he rocked the boat once he had his hands on a material possession that he could take with him this time. It just about put me and my kids out on the street.
I know they watch and test you. He once said to me “I have been waiting and watching, to see how long it would take you to pick up that cup.” This he said, after insinuating that me and my children live like pigs. Even though we do not.
Remarks like this lead me to wake up in the morning, first thoughts being, “OH my God! I have to get the laundry done, the dishes done, the rug vaccuummed, the bed made, before he gets home and thinks I have just been lazy all day.” WELL, the truth of the matter is that I have always been clean, I am a single mother, and a full time college student, working hard to better my life, so that I can get a job that will pay enough to get my kids to college, and put a nicer roof over their heads.
What he would have me believe and tried to make me believe—> That I have fucked my life up. That I am a loser,
that I havent lived up to my potential, that I have let myself and my children down somehow, that I have not been forgiving enough, or empathetic enough…and on and on and on. The truth of this matter is that, these are all qualities of himself, that he PROJECTED ON TO ME. If I had stayed with him any longer, they would have come true. He was always trying to put me in the same boat with him, saying that “TOGETHER WE CAN BETTER OUR LIVES, IF YOU ARE JUST WILLING TO PUT MORE INTO THE RELATIONSHIP.” Basically, what he wanted was my very soul, and he was doing a good job of confusing the living day lights out of it.
At first, I just thought he was a man down on his luck. His house burned down, he was living above a bar because of that in a shitty apartment. Looking back, I wonder if he burnt his own house down. Come to find out, he had growing rooms in it for pot. Second, he was above a bar because he chose that spot, not because he didn’t have a choice. Third, he spotted me from a mile away….the one who is niave in the fact that I always give people the benefit of the doubt. I always want to believe the best about people, and I excuse away their misfortunes by saying to myself “OH, HE HAS HAD SUCH A HARD LIFE. HE JUST NEEDS SOMEONE TO LOVE HIM AND HE WILL BE ALL BETTER!”
The truth of the matter was, HIS LIFE GOT BETTER. He got his cake and ate it too, add a cherry, some whip cream, some chocolate icecream, some candy sprinkles, and a glass of the most expensive champaign ever made.
HE EVEN TRIED TO MAKE ME BELIEVE THAT I HAD NOTHING TO TAKE WORTH OF VALUE> THAT MY HOME, MY BED, THE FOOD ON THE TABLE, THE COMPANY, THE COMFORTABILITY, WAS NOTHING HE NEEDED. HE WAS HERE BECAUSE HE LOVED ME. LMAO!!!!
the truth of the matter, he got his insurance money from his house that had burnt down, about 80,000 dollars, and instead of building his house, like he was supposed to do, he squandered it away on cocain, alcohol, entertainment, friends with worse problems than his (OF course this made it look like he was better than everyone else.)
Today, he is living for free in another womans house out of state. He wrote me about two weeks ago, telling me, how he dreams of coming back this summer, and starting over our relationship. LMAO!!!! HOw can he believe this!
I could write a book on all the things he caused me to lose, my sanity, self-esteem, my integrity, my peace, quality time with my children, my grades in college suffered because of his calling all hours of the night, and stoping by like a stalker, to beg for forgiveness! Many times, i forgave him. Sometimes out of pitty, sometimes, because of the illusion he presented to me…the illusion of how he wanted me to portray him.
Now I see that his past, even before me, is laced with fraud, broken hearts, abandoned children, lies, broken promises. one thing that scared me, is that, once he got the business ready to go, the business that I got him going in, the first thing he started talking aobut was getting LIFE INSURANCE. This scared me. LIFE INSURANCE????? We were not even married, and we had a break up-get back together track record that topped the charts. I really started to get paranoid with him at this point. LIFE INSURANCE? Why would he need life insurance now?
While he was in my home, he frauded my taxes, he frauded unemployment, AFDC, overdrew his bank account by the hundreds, did other small con jobs, got caught selling material that from the house that burnt down, that he had lost, got caught with drugs, got an O.U,I, punched his friends teenager in the face, lied about it, when he left here because I kicked him out, he slept in other womans beds, (As I found out later.) I didn’t know what he was doing until it was too late. He borrowed a huge loan from me, which was loan money that I had taken myself to pay for my college, and was supposed to be paying me back some every month. He left multiple projects left unfinished and just ripped apart around my home.
At the end of our relationship, he was trying to turn me against my own fammily, telling me to tell them to go fuck themselves, because they could see something in him, that I was denying. i didn’t ofcourse. I knew this game too well. He was trying to isolate me, and had been doing a pretty good job of it to start.
He needed my qualities as a person, and he needed to project his qualities on to me. That is how he manipulated me. He turned my strengths into his strengths to make himself look good. He tooks his bad qualities and projected them onto me, to make me look like the bad guy.
FORGIVNESS AT THIS POINT WOULD BE DANGEROUS FOR ME. HE BELIEVES I OWE HIM THAT. The only person I need to forgive, is me, for being so stupid and blind, to think that he was really a GOOD INTENTIONED person. And also, so that I do not wind up in the same trap with another sociopathic loser, I tend to attract them. MY BIGGEST FLAW IS BELIEVING IT IS ME THAT NEEDS MORE WORK, THAT EVERYONE IS GOOD IN THEIR HEARTS AND HAS GOOD INTENTIONS. THAT I DO NOT DESERVE BETTER. Someone who could truelly be interested in me for who I am as a person, and not superficial reasons.
Looking back, I felt extremely lonely with him, because he could not see me as a person. I was not a person, but an object, to be manipulated for his benefit. I was happier alone, with my children. I was and had been doing so well in life, even though I tend not to give myself enough credit. because I do not give myself any credit, neither do men like this, and they play on that.
My ex had also wrote me saying “that if I had truelly loved him I would have….fill in the blank.” the truth was that I gave him everything, my heart, an empathetic ear, love, a home, food, shelter, my money, food, transportation, and more.
So as I ramble here, which is actually very theraputic, my new years resolution, is to forgive myself. Something I have always had a hard time doing. The only thing I can do about forgiveness with him, is pray for him. Pray that the girl he is with, doesn’t get as manipulated as I did, and hurt. I can pray for him, then let it go, so he doesnt consume my mind. My mind still wants to love him at times. The truth is though, that the only reason I want to love him, is because he left a void in me when he left. One he had planned on inhabiting and controlling. That void can be filled will real friends, and life experiences, God, and forgiveness of my self for a change.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:40am
Petra60 says:
Midlife…I feel as if I am in the same exact position as you…I don’t know a lot about you – but, I sense the fear and the confusion. It may not be a lot of consolation – but, I know exactly how you feel. I have struggled and struggled to stand my ground…to get back up when he knocks me down…but, it has been exhausting and there doesn’t seem to be an end in sight. After 30 years of covert and not so covert abuse – after I finally realized that there was no hope for change – I stood up to him…but, I should have left the country instead.
Some Sociopaths/Abusers move from one vicitim to another…mine is determined to destroy me. I locked the doors behind him five years ago…hired lawyers…spent all of my savings and investments on legal fees…The judges ruled in my favor four different times – and this man is still working as a top executive for a large non-profit organization (medical field) who can weasel himself out of every situation by claiming that he is helping the children in Iraq, Haiti, Africa, etc.
We have been in front of the judges four different times….my ex has lost every time…and still – nothing has been done to enforce the rulings, except enrage my ex even more.
My ex is a former Special Forces officer…but, even worse – he had been in litigation with his sisters over his parent’s estate for eight years (and lost). He was involved in congressional hearings over the Anthrax program (that he screwed up) and lost… He lost every litigation he was ever involved in – but, that didn’t stop him. He knows every loop hole, every tactic, every in and out of the justice system.
What did I know? I was forced to stop painting and teaching because I needed to educate myself in order to understand what was happening. I was under the mistaken assumption that the courts will protect me against an abuser…against frivolous and unneccessary litigation…against stalking…against all kinds of illegal activities…It doesn’t work that way. If you don’t have money – you are screwed. If you don’t know the law – you are screwed. If you have a callous lawyer who is only out to make money…screwed and screwed again.
When I went to see a lawyer – I had a valid, legal and notarized separation agreement. There was no need for litigation. I wanted a divorce and my ex didn’t. After two years of torture – I found out that my ex had bought a $560,000 condo in D.C. together with a woman half his age…took my name off the life insurance policy and put hers on (against the agreement)…had not done our joint taxes for 06 and 07…had not paid his lawyer…etc. etc.
He purposefully broke every paragraph in that agreement so that I would have to go back to court….losing every cent of my money in the meantime…which, of course, was the point.
Once I realized what was happening – I had lost all of my savings – am in debt up to my neck – and can’t make a move.
Two weeks ago we had another court appointment…He showed up at the last minute – but, promised to settle everything out of court. The attorneys believed him…called off the hearing…his lawyer was supposed to send the agreements to my attorney that afternoon.
Nothing.
Duped again. We had him in front of the court room…and he just thumbed his nose at us. I still don’t know what happened but, I am sure he was claiming that he needed to help with the Haitian relieve effort.
I feel victimized by a Sociopath, by my attorney and by the courts. I have nightmares that my ex will burn down my house…or attack me when I get in my garage. Nobody cares and nobody listens – until it’s too late.
For all those who believe that Sociopaths are not responsible for what they are doing…let me tell you otherwise. My ex has told me to my face: “I can do to you whatever I want.”
He would call from work and tell me that he is coming home for dinner…or for my birthday…or for a holiday…or for the kid’s birthday parties – and then wouldn’t. He would verbally abuse me until I had cried – then, he would say he was sorry with a smirk on his face.
He would tell me – in front of others – how much he loved me and would do anything for me…then, would ignore me when I needed medical attention…or when I was in labor with my sons…or when I was waiting for hours at the appointed meeting place. He knew right from wrong – especially when he wanted something from me. He gave lectures on being an honorable and dedicated soldier – how to treat their families, blah, blah, blah. He wouldn’t have been able to spend 31 in the military as an officer or hold on to the high paying job he has now if he didn’t know how to treat people.
He has targeted me, and he will never stop.
I dream of disapearing…but, the reality is that the world has become a fish bowl. My ex and my son know everything there is to know about the newest technological gadgets…how to tap into computers and cell phones. I don’t want to sound paranoid – but, I feel watched and I feel manipulated. I recently changed my phone number and asked what I could do so that it wouldn’t be published on the Internet or anywhere else. The telephone provider told me that I had to pay $2.45 per month. Let’s hope it works.
I equate forgiveness with being able to forget. Unfortunately, my ex will never let me forget. He has done this for so long now – he doesn’t know what else to do. I have changed – but, he hasn’t.
There are a lot of days now where I can say that I have had a good day.
Have a good day everyone.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:56am
Done says:
I think that the importance of “forgiving” the S/P is for our own healing. They are definitely not worthy of being forgiven in the sense that they get another chance, but holding onto all the hurt and anger by plotting their demise ultimately is a speed bump in our recovery. I believe that they will get what is coming to them in the end, and it’s not our responsibility or in our control to give it to them. The only thing that is in my control is “forgiving” my Ex so that I don’t waste anymore of my life thinking about him.
That all said, I’m still struggling with it on a daily basis-but I usually feel a lot better on the days that I’m not plotting his death or wondering if he’s happy. I certainly don’t think he deserves my forgiveness, but I do. I’ve just recently quit praying for his death, but in the time since when I’ve been working on this I feel a bit lighter.
To me forgiveness is about letting go, not giving any more undeserved chances.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:04pm
blueskies says:
I agree with you done, Letting go I know is the way I am going to heal more. I would love to let go of the anger I feel lately, its horrible, but I am struggling with it. I have been NC for quite some time now from the person I know is the root source of a lifetime of pain and confusion and many areas of life are returning to some kind of happy but the ’silence’ has almost honed the memories, the clarification has increased the anger. I guess this is normal? more fog clearing means that you find more to forgive! Let go, let go is my daily mantra, just waiting for the click when the thought gears change and I can honestly say I have:)
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:14pm
autisticsouls says:
a swedish film called “Evil” about psychopathc abusive stepfathers and school bullies.
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3332702489/
seeing the CBS segment of Denmark being happiest country with (lowest rate and tolerance for sociopathy) and such awareness films like this from Sweden one has to consider that the scandinavians are really top of the game in awareness and confronting sociopathic behaviors.
we can learn alot from them.
Mike
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:34pm
Done says:
Blueskies,
It’s definitely going to be a process (letting go)! I too, can’t wait for the day where I truly don’t care anymore. I try to remind myself that it is achievable. One thing that helps me is remembering past relationships that don’t bother me anymore. I remember when my first boyfriend cheated on me, I thought I was going to DIE. Now, I could care less about that guy. So I try to remind myself that this pain is temporary (although much deeper due to the horrible nature of the relationship with an S/P). But still temporary. Too bad there’s not a fast-forward button for the misery!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 1:11pm
banana says:
I’m sorry.
I thought, and experienced that the S did not do anything to purposely harm, but did ONLY what was BENEFICIAL to him. If he hurt someone it was a, let’s say, side-effect.
They ONLY consider THEMSELVES.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:05pm
learnthelesson says:
Wini – God bless you! Thank you for the much needed “pick me up” and for sharing your shining spiritedness.
More than feeling a need to forgive…I felt the need to accept its where he wants to be.. what he wants to do…and how he wants to be in HIS life. I dont HAVE to forgive him…I just HAVE to make sure he has nothing to do with MY LIFE. I eventually chose to have forgiveness within for his choices – so that I could let go and move on and accept he isnt healthy enough to be a contributing member of society, let alone in a real relationship.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:44pm
learnthelesson says:
BANANA -
TRUE THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:47pm
Sarah999 says:
IMHO forgiveness has 2 parts….
1) forgiving the other person
&
2) forgiving yourself
and IMHO to forgive, both must be there.
1) IMHO you should only forgive the other person,
a) if he/she is sincerely remorseful,
b) they have in fact (without a doubt) changed and they would never do it again,
c) and if you want to continue to have a relationship with them.
2) IMHO you will forgive yourself when,
a) you come to understand that it was not your fault,
b) you discover why you were suckered in by them, i.e., why you fell for the charm, lies, internalized the blame etc.
c) you have taken steps to not let it happen again (such as No Contact).
IMHO N/P/S don’t change, and don’t have remorse (unless it’s phony remorse) . . So the bottom line for me is I have forgiven myself and will not forgive the P/S/N. I do not forgive EVIL!!!!!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 5:43pm
Done says:
banana,
I agree. I don’t think the S/P I was involved with intentionally hurt me (with a few exceptions) but was completely self-serving, and couldn’t care less if I ended up with my heart on the floor, broke, in debt, & emotionally scarred. All he cared about was himself and when I was no longer an easy victim I was discarded like trash.
I recently heard from a fried that ran into him that he had said I was “doing great” and speaking other praises about me as if nothing had even happened, even though I hadn’t spoken to him in months. I was shocked, but when I stood back I realized that of course he would speak well of me, because he thinks it makes him look better. There were other times I heard from friends of his that he would tell them how I lost weight, looked great, found a great job, etc. all compliments that he would NEVER tell me in person. Now I realize that was just another part of his SELF SERVING attitude. Make it appear to others that he’s a great guy, while only revealing his true monster face to me in private.
Good riddance.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 6:29pm
Trophy says:
Hi, Lovefraud. This is my first post.
Well, I joined the club so to speak quite some time ago. Let’s just say marriage wasn’t exactly what I thought it would be. And unlike the luckier among you, I have children with the *entity* so I am forced to have some kind of contact.
About forgiveness, well, here’s my take on it.
I’m really into reality these days, so I believe in calling a snake a snake. What we’ve traditionally been taught about forgiveness is wrong. It isn’t about pretending the hurt didn’t happen.
That’s denying reality and it’s unhealthy.
It’s also unhealthy to let yourself get worked up over it. What did you expect from a snake? What will snakes do other than bite you and pump you full of venom?
Dwelling on it and wishing it wasn’t what it is just gives them power and saps yours.
If he or she is a snake, treat him or her like one. All the wishing in the world won’t turn a snake into a kitty cat and it takes away the energy you could be using to find a real kitty cat.
Oh, and if you have children, tell them the truth. Without emotion, just the facts. I think one of the worst things in the world you could do is pretend along with the predator that he or she isn’t one.
That just provides him or her an unending supply of prey.
So, yeah, that’s forgiveness. When you accept reality and don’t hold on to it, resist it, and try to make it into something else.
Accept the thing’s true nature and give yourself the gift of not letting the thing bother you. And don’t put yourself or your loved ones where the thing can harm you again.
Much success.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 8:47pm
jennifer1011 says:
When I read in an earlier Lovefraud newsletter that there was some idea that socio/psychopaths can be compared to natural predators, the singular and most important distinction between the two immediately came to mind: a natural predator must kill to eat and to survive….but an s/p does it because they can, because it gives them pleasure, because they believe they have the divine right to do so, because they choose it.
I have spent two years pondering the subject of forgiveness.
For my own sake, to forgive would seem the healthiest thing to do and of course one’s friends always encourage it. But forgiveness is not really the right word is it? Release perhaps, to release this thing back to its habitat (never mind the guilt we feel about unleashing it on an unsuspecting world) and try to forget that it ever existed, release all thoughts of it, all feelings about it…if only we could entirely. The poster above, and welcome to this little club to which none of us would have ever wished to become a member, nails it I think. She says that to accept what it is, whatever name you want to give it, is the most realistic thing you can do for yourself and for your loved ones. You would never invite a viper into your house, nor would you let it crawl around in your heart and mind. You accept it for what it is; a dangerous monster. You know its nature and what it is capable of doing.
Perhaps it is only when we are able to reach this place of DISPASSIONATE acceptance of what is simply real that we regain some sense of power over what has happened. We did not know what it was, now we do.
Yes I’m human too, I read the obituaries ever day. I chuckle to myself, ‘oh darn its not dead yet’ like its a little inside joke. Sort of like checking my lottery numbers; I know I’m not going to win but I’ve had a grand time in the last 24 hours imagining what the world is like without IT.
Forgiveness….in some ways I have worked harder at forgiving myself. I needed to forgive myself for giving so much of my energy and my life. “All the love that you’ve been giving has all been meant for you” This idea has comforted me a great deal actually.
I have decided for myself that it does not heal me to forgive the monster, it heals me to forgive myself and to forget the monster and if I expect it to do precisely what it has always done, precisely what monsters DO, and to observe this as I would a bug or a snake, without feelings, then I will never be disappointed or surprised again.
If forgiveness is ever to be offered the monster, it will have to come from God. I think that’s been an essential part of this process for me; trusting that God will judge the monster as nothing in this world ever can, and trusting that God will know just what to do with the monster when it gets there.
In this way I don’t have to worry about justice, God will vindicate me, time will vindicate me, God will mete out the justice we each deserve in the end.
For Trophy, I know it must take enormous strength to be confronted again and again with contact. Your being truthful and dispassionately honest with your children about what the other parent is is the best thing you can do for them. I know they tell us as parents to reassure children about the love of the absent parent….but in situations with a monster, it only sets them up for false hopes and a lifetime of disappointment and shocking betrayals…and provides the monster with fresh prey. You have all my heartfelt prayers.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 10:04pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
jennifer: ‘Release’ PERFECT word for what is needed!
for me, it is THE reason to try forgive. But there is no need for me to forgive her – but there need to release myself. Perfect!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 10:16pm
Renewedhope says:
I am a huge Tyler Perry fan. I love the lessons he tries to teach. But the forgiviness lession is always confusing to me. Forgive the aggressor not for his sake but for yourself so that you can move on. That is what Tyer says. But How can anyone forgive a wife beater/cheater who has no remorse for what he did? And who says we can’t go on without forgivenesss? No. Sorry… I can’t forgive S woman because to do so will let my guard down. Does she ever know which buttons to push on me! I can’t give her that power over me again. Sorry.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 4:26am
glinderella says:
Hello…
This is my first post to Lovefraud and I am honored to be here among my fellow lesson learners. I just wanted to recommend a book I just finished reading called: “Breaking the Wall of Silence” by Alice Miller. Her books point out the ways in which we are culturally brainwashed and manipulated not to be aware and to comply with the interpersonal and cultural edicts of the manipulation and no-win situations and the guilt we carry when we have the nerve to question the n/s/p. I hope that my fellow Lovefraud readers will benefit from the truth that jumps off the pages of this and her other books…looking forward to sharing here!
Thanks so much!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:01am
midlifecrisis says:
Mike – I prefer the word psychopath too – and you just put into words why for me. Sociopath is too soft and nice sounding – it has connotations that society created them and they are a total product of their own society – which we know isn’t totally true – there are plenty of people who grow up with less than ideal surroundings and don’t go out of their way to hurt people – instead they make a concerted effort to change their lives for the better and those of their children. So that is exactly why I disagree with the term sociopath – it’s fluffy and doesn’t connote the danger these people pose for the rest of society and particularly those they are intimate with, related to or good ‘friends’ with. Great point.
Another great point you raise is about respecting the rights of psychos if we say we respect and embrace diversity. I have been thinking a lot about you and your wife and child and how you experience the world. The labels that society puts on you to fit you into a little box so people can stereotype. I TRY not to do that, but it’s kind of inevitable that when someone mentions the word ‘autism’, I pull up the little file in my brain that contains everything I know about the condition – everything I have read, research into vaccines and practical interactions I have had with people who have the condition at all stages in life. You are the first person with autism (and your lovely wife) that has blown the box out of the water and it’s making me think of things from your perspective. Well I know I can’t literally know your experience of life, but I am thinking of you as a person first and foremost then learning how the ’symptoms’ affect you as an individual. Your willingness to share yourself is enabling a lot of us to re-educate ourselves about autism and what it means for people who have it and those who don’t. I am moving away from the assumptions … ‘If you are autistic then you must have a special sensitivity and be highly sensate and probably not much emotional communication’ That’s false where you are concerned – your writing shows incredible depth of emotion and connectivity to others – so probably it is false for others with autism too. I wonder how much of that social difficulty comes from others approaching those with autism with those stereotypes in their heads – ‘oh I won’t get too involved because it might be uncomfortable for them’.
I have drifted off the topic but that needed to come out
Your point is spot on – there is a difference with psychopaths – they harm others and therefore shouldn’t be afforded the same rights as those who don’t. Good good point and an important distinction. That means for me that if ANYONE harms others – no matter if they have cerebral palsy, dyslexia, tourettes syndrome, depression – then there is something very wrong. I think I am getting close to something here. I think in the past I thought that if a person had an additional need then I have to excuse any bad behaviour from them. That’s a stupid and arrogant approach. It’s a pity vote – ‘They have this thing wrong with them, so they can’t help it’. NO! People are responsible for what they do. Period. Don’t we all have special and additional needs of one form or another?
I get overwhelmed around crowds so I avoid large events like concerts. Does that give me the right to abuse people if I deliberately stress myself by going to a concert?? No. Of course not.
I was reading today about Dabrowski’s theory of positive disintegration = I think it’s really important to this process of recovering from a psychopath encounter. The theory states that if a person experiences a big enough trauma, they don’t recover in the normal sense of the word but rather they go through a period of intense psychological restructuring where everything about them is taken apart and reformed. I think that is what we go through here. We don’t just get a bit hurt and lose trust. We are devastated and forced to examine everything about ourselves, our history, our personality and affect and even our philosophy, morals and worldview.
The theory goes that during this period of restructuring negative emotions are very very common – guilt, shame, pain, humiliation and depression. But there is nothing wrong with these – they are normal and should just be accepted. Once the person is through this restructure – they can become a force for good in the world if they can get past their egocentric thinking and focus on self. Does that resonate with you Mike? I haven’t done a very good job of explaining it but you can google – it’s linked strongly with gifted education but I think it is applicable here. I would be really interested to hear your thoughts about it.
I will try to find some good quotes from the article that hopefully illustrate it better than I can!
“In Dabrowski’s theory (1964), positive disintegration is the process by which all development occurs. For Dabrowski, growth occurs through a series of psychological disintegrations and reintegrations, resulting in dramatic change to a person’s conceptions of self and the world. Positive disintegration forges a personality that motivates one to perform at increasingly high levels, emphasizing altruism and morality.”
The author notes that not all disintegrations are positive – negative ones can lead to tremendous depression and even suicide.
Central to the theory is the concept of OEs (over excitabilities) – these show areas for potential development in gifted or highly sensitive people:
Psychomotor – restlessness, driveness, augmented capacity for being active and energetic
Sensual – enhanced differentiation and aliveness of sensual experience
Imaginational – vividness of imagery, richness of association, facility for dreams, fantasies and inventions, animisms and personifications, liking the unusual
Intellectual – avidity for knowledge, discovery, questioning, love of ideas and theoretical analysis
Emotional – great depth and intensity of emotional life expressed in a wide range of feelings, compassion, attachment, heightened sense of responsibility, self examination
Rank where you are in terms of those OEs – I am particularly strong on the last three. I definitely identify myself as a highly sensitive person and always have been. I can carry the emotions of others, absorb it and sense it and have always had a thirst for knowledge and huge imagination. I actually wonder where we all are in relation to these traits – I imagine they combine to create extreme weakness where psychopaths are involved – we are able to feel for both of us, imagine a better day and analyse the situation in depth, without ever really needing to come to conclusion.
“These OEs, especially the latter three cause a person to experience day to day life more intensely and to feel the extremes of the joys and sorrows of life profoundly”
“Positive disintegration is an emotionally painful process resulting in psychological reintegration at a higher level of human functioning. Experiencing negative emotions such as shame, guilt and anxiety, under certain conditions is indicative of positive disintegration”
(Yay! These emotions are serving a purpose! Hooray!)
The author writes about people having either high or low development potential – fixed at birth although the environment can contribute to how potential develops, but it cannot put more potential there if there is little to start with.
“When developmental potential is low, emotions, including negative emotions are simply experienced with short term effectson a person. In contrast, intense emotionality in the context of high OEs yields profound, life changing experiences contributing to positive disintegration. Inner conflict is associated with such intense emotionality: Life events and introspection become catalysts to painful experiencing of the discrepancy between the way the world should be and the way it is.”
I am still absorbing this complicated theory – just found it today. Hope it gives others like me some more hope – it looks like we are high in development potential and are going through a profound internal restructuring as we experience these huge emotions in the aftermath of the psychopaths. There really IS gold in the experience! Please share your thoughts about this theory …
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:13am
midlifecrisis says:
Welcome Glinderella (nice name!)
Sorry that you have obviously had an experience with a disordered person … it’s very painful. You are very welcome here though and among people who understand and can help you get through the healing journey. Please share more of your story as you feel able.
Funny you should mention Alice Miller – I was on her website the other week reading through all the letters people had sent her and her responses. I definitely have to start reading her books. You will find here a lot of people are going back to their childhood experiences to understand how they got stuck in a poor and destructive relationship with a psychopath – early experiences certainly build our view of what is normal and acceptable in relationships.
Well just a quick welcome
You are among friends here – post away and enjoy reading all the wonderful material here 
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:21am
Cat says:
Dr. Leedom,
Excellent article! DO we ever forgive? I am not in the place yet where forgiveness comes into play and I’m not sure I ever will be because how do you forgive EVIL? How do forgive a person who has taken your life and methodically, systematically and with premeditation stripped myself and others of integrity, pride, trust in mankind, money and precious memories that will never be retrieved? I just don’t forgiveness forthcoming and I thank God no one is asking that of me right now.
Jennifer- just read your post. RELEASE! I think you hit on a great way to look at it, releasing the angst, the anger, the stress, the self-condemnation we all collected at some point. I have already reached points, even as new as I am to the whole healing process in which I’ve experienced this. You found the right word to express it all. I do this for me because if I choose to carry the anger and hatred, then my soul will be dark and I choose NOT to live the rest of my life like that. In a sense, it’s also still giving my EX S. power that he has no right to over my life. The word “release” is a lot easier to process than “forgiveness”. Thank you!
Do I believe they have a choice? Yes, but only in the sense that they use it to pick and choose who they are are going to use next and just how they are going to go about doing that. Do they have a choice in that they can actually turn into a giving, dependable, honorable member of society? NO. I agree, they are not to be compared to a lion or tiger who kills to survive and was not given the abilities to think of any other way to protect their basic survival. A P/N/A has NO conscience and to me, that puts them in the basement of the house of humanity.
Ox,
I’ve always taught my child to love the person, but that doesn’t mean you have to love what they DO. My son is slowly, but surely, reaching the stage where he is refining his ability to see that certain things were/are done because his father makes a choice to do so. Even at his age, he is able to discern between that and something that was truly an accident, such as you described, someone wrestling with their child and little things happening. KNOWING the difference will, perhaps, give him the knowledge he needs later on in life to be able to pick out those who are real and those who are real evil.
glinderella,
WELCOME! This is the best place in the world to be and yet I’m sorry you have to be here. Come back and visit, read and learn. This site has saved me in so many ways, I can’t begin to recite them all. I’m glad you’re here!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:26am
Cat says:
Trophy,
Just read your post and live the snake/little kitten theory. You’re spot on about that. I have a son with my ex and that means I have to have contact with him, though it’s as limited as it can be. I haven’t hidden anything from my child, who is 10, and I believe telling him, educating him to the REALITY of what his father is, is essential to his mental health, as I just wrote of to Oxy in my above post.
Reality is a word I like. Like Release, it’s a good, workable, healing word that will take any of us to new places, far better than where we’ve been. I am very real in that I know EXACTLY what my ex is and what he is capable of. Great post!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:32am
ThornBud says:
Great post! I feel as i needed to read something like that, becauze i am stucked in forgiveness phase, unable to forgive.
It frightened me because i am not the person unable or not willing to forgive, i forgave many nasty things to many bad people, but somehow i just can’t forgive s/n ‘ s. I was wondering: WHY?
As Oxy loves to say, i got now my AHA moment – it is imposible to forgive spaths because there is no substance in them, and, in fact, no real person to forgive. Spaths are fake, an illusion, a dream, they are tot REAL PERSONS so we can forgive them.
Its my circle i cant leave. I WANT to forgive, but i dont know WHOM. All his appearances of ‘individual’ ? All his faces? All my mother’s faces?
Even if i forgive to ‘good person’ i held fpr in those creatures, here is The Nasty one comes back…
God, will this agony ever end?
Sorry, i just needed to vent
Bless u all
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 9:21am
Done says:
midlifecrisis,
Great post. I’m going to have to look up Dabrowski’s theory. Maybe there is some combination of OEs that makes us more susceptible to S/Ps. I seem to identify with the same (last 3) OEs you do, and I like your idea that “we are able to feel for both of us, imagine a better day and analyze the situation in depth, without ever really needing to come to conclusion.” I spent 10 years with the S trying to ‘fix’ him with love, imagining how our future ‘could be’ and endlessly analyzing and trying to make sense of his odd behavior.
For me, as soon as I found LoveFraud and had an explanation for his behaviors, I was able to begin moving on. Finding this site helped something CLICK for me, and I think just having an explanation went a long way to fulfilling my need for logical explanations of his behavior.
Thanks for your post!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:35am
Sarah999 says:
I think, the reason we find it so hard to forgive, is it’s not natural. Our natures, and instincts prevent us from forgiving a predator . . . because they will do it again, and especially an evil, lying, manipulative, blaming, raging, charming, predator, because we know they will do it again.
Why are we trying so hard to go against our instincts. I think we should not forgive. Not for a second, not one iota. Forgiveness is what has gotten us in trouble (during our relationship with the N/S/P.) If we hadn’t forgiving the first offense, we would not have become hooked. I don’t know why, how, who thinks we should forgive . . but I do believe it is the wrong in the natural world.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:36am
banana says:
2 things.
On second thought, as you know, my S does do things to intentionally hurt me NOW that we are SEPARATED and I will not play his GAME.
I may not have the understanding that Wini has, but I believe biblically Forgiveness IS RELEASE…you are choosing to no-longer be bitter or seek revenge.
I have read in many books that bitterness can cause cancer…it’s the emotional and physiological stress.
LET IT GO..
Hey there is an article here on that!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:49am
Sarah999 says:
IMHO you forgive an ACCIDENT, because they will not do it again. You do not forgive a person that has hurt you intentionally and with malice.
The reason No Contact is important, is because it allows us to go on with our lives without being repeatedly dragged down into their evil.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 11:24am
OxDrover says:
I think you can “forgive” the lion that attacked you (the predator) but you have learned NOT TO TRUST the predator in the future. Ps are like that lion, they camouflage themselves in their environment until they are ready to strike when you are not suspecting, or when you are weak and wounded so they don’t have to work so hard to bring you down.
With predators of the human sort, I think we need to be able to OBSERVE for someone in camouflage and “see through” the mask at what you are really dealing with and then get the heck away from them BEFORE they have a chance to seriously “grab” us.
Human predators, just like animal predators, seem to be able to spot the least weakness in their chosen prey. That doesn’t mean that we are bad or damaged, but each of us has a caring nature, or other part of us that makes us NOT look at their behavior (which at first appears benign) and be cautious.
Since human predators LOOK SO ‘HUMAN” it is difficult to tell by LOOKING at their form, but we must watch for PREDATORY BEHAVIOR from anyone in our circle and at the first sign, the FIRST sign we must file that away and at any other sign we must RUN like hell. Actually, I no longer give any predatory behavior a second chance. I have a list of “deal breakers” with anyone in my life that is close to me (not store clerks or people I can’t avoid because you still have to go out in the world and you will meet rude people daily if you are around enough people)
My DEAL BREAKERS are:
1. LYING—and/or consistently telling “stories” that contradict each other.
2. Failing to be RESPONSIBLE for things that they should be.
Such as:
a)Not keeping a job, getting frequently fired from jobs,
b)Not maintaining financial responsibility and expecting someone else to support them,
c)not taking care of their children or any other obligation.
d) Addictive behaviors of any illegal drug, overuse of Rx addictive medications or alcohol, gambling, video games,
e) promiscuous sexual behavior, inappropriate behavior toward children or others sexually or addiction to sex.
3) a criminal background worse than jaywalking. NO past DUIs,
4) past cheating on a spouse more than ONE episode EVER and that not long term.
5) comes on “too quickly” upon meeting wanting to push the relationship quickly and intimately. Relationships need time for trust to develop over time, even friendships. This is a big deal breaker for me.
6) wanting to do FAVORS for you that you don’t ask for or really need, many times this is a “dead give away” of an abuser at first.
7) someone trying to tell me how I FEEL (i.e. mind reading)
9) someone to whom the “rules” don’t seem to apply, so any sign of “specialness” in their outlook is a deal breaker for me.
10) someone to whom someone else warns me about. The warner may have an agenda or be spiteful, but on the other hand, they may very well be right. I will wait to make up my mind, but I will keep that warning CLOSELY IN MIND.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
I think that bitterness and anger, while normal and good emotions in the short run and destructive to us in the LONG run. They increase the negative feelings we have, increase the stress hormones being released and DO have a negative influence on our health.
It is only by resolving these feelings of bitterness, anger, hate and thirst for revenge, I think, that we can truly heal, find peace and move on with our lives. To me, that continual bitterness and anger is like a ball and chain around my heart, keeping me back from peace and healing.
However, I will NEVER again TRUST the abuser, and WILL NC IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:44pm
banana says:
Oxy,
Love your list.
I’ll make it mine : )
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:54pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
And if I may, I would add one more part to number 2.
Great list
f) Blaming everything on others. Never their their “fault”.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 2:05pm
autisticsouls says:
Midlifecrisis, an I have an OCD urgings I can’t control and mentally changed your name for something displaying a more positive connotation. Like Lifeaftercrisis. i’m like that character “Monk” somehow. It’s also my OCD and imagination working in overdrive. I look at something and have this need to look at it and adjust it at a better light.
I’ve always been plagued with an overactive imagination since I was a child, in which Dabrowski’s theory really hits home.
But I don’t mind it as Albert Einstein did so explain so eloquently:, “ Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand…”
The exploration into this topic was a topic of interest due to my well known overblown imagination. Where I would often drift into ‘my own little world’ which got my interest into Dabrowski’s Theory.
Explained in Chapter 20 “Emotional Life and Pschotherapy in the Gifted in Light of Dabrowski’s Theory:
http://positivedisintegration......2009)..pdf
“..For the experience to be real to be completely real, vividness of visualization has to be accompanied by the ability to be completely absorbed in the experience. For example to enter into a painting, become one with music, become water, sky, or an animal with all attendant sensations and perceptions is to be totally and realistically merged in the experience. (Piechowski 2006 Tellegan & Atkinson, 1974)
Such depth of absorption is more than flow because it takes place in a self created reality. We are faced with intriguing question of how imagination constructs reality. Since the internal, self created reality cannot be distinguished from the properties of external reality. One has to ask, which is the real “real”? (Piechowski 2006)…”
He got many of us on the autistic spectrum that way. My imagination was so real that two of my imaginary playments are real today externally as well. My ‘imagination’ is so strong that I’m taking parenting classes for my other two children which will prove to be more difficult to parent than my daughter was to parent.
The fact that they are not physically here yet is of no consequence because I was talking about my wife and daughter years before I knew one of them or before the other one actually existed. That somewhere across the world I was also my wife’s imaginary friend has something to say about what many perceive to simply be ‘imaginary’. but i think Quantum physics comes into play here about how we are all made up of subatomic particles that don’t behave in the four dimensional way we are all used to seeing the world. because getting into our smallest particles we are not even physical matter at all, we just appear to be… but this will get into another of my obsessive monologues about theoretical physics…
What exactly is real or not? I’ve got paintings of my child today that I painted when I was 11 years old. There is no difference between the two. The dark haired girl I painted as a child is my Dolphin today.
http://www.wired.com/wired/arc.....rgers.html
The Geek Syndrome: Autism – and its milder cousin Asperger’s syndrome – is surging among the children of Silicon Valley. Are math-and-tech genes to blame?
“…Nick is building a universe on his computer. He’s already mapped out his first planet: an anvil-shaped world called Denthaim that is home to gnomes and gods, along with a three-gendered race known as kiman. As he tells me about his universe, Nick looks up at the ceiling, humming fragments of a melody over and over. “I’m thinking of making magic a form of quantum physics, but I haven’t decided yet, actually,” he explains. The music of his speech is pitched high, alternately poetic and pedantic – as if the soul of an Oxford don has been awkwardly reincarnated in the body of a chubby, rosy-cheeked boy from Silicon Valley. Nick is 11 years old…”
but enough of our ‘imagination” and those of us on the autistic spectrum, here are other quotes that hits me and many of us on the spectrum dead on…:
Crises challenge our status quo and cause us to review our self, ideas, values, thoughts, ideals, etc. If development continues, one goes on to develop an individualized, conscious and critically evaluated hierarchical value structure (called positive adjustment). This hierarchy of values acts as a benchmark by which all things are now seen, and the higher values in our internal hierarchy come to direct our behavior (no longer based on external social mores). These higher, individual values characterize an eventual second integration reflecting individual autonomy and for Dąbrowski, mark the arrival of true human personality. At this level, each person develops his or her own vision of how life ought to be and lives it. This higher level is associated with strong individual approaches to problem solving and creativity.
One’s talents and creativity are applied in the service of these higher individual values and visions of how life could be – how the world ought to be. The person expresses his or her “new” autonomous personality energetically through action, art, social change and so on…”
And this sounds just like our autistic experience:
“…The most evident aspect of developmental potential is overexcitability (OE), a heightened physiological experience of stimuli resulting from increased neuronal sensitivities. The greater the OE, the more intense are the day-to-day experiences of life. Dąbrowski outlined five forms of OE: psychomotor, sensual, imaginational, intellectual and emotional. These overexcitabilities, especially the latter three, often cause a person to experience daily life more intensely and to feel the extremes of the joys and sorrows of life profoundly. Dąbrowski studied human exemplars and found that heightened overexcitability was a key part of their developmental and life experience. These people are steered and driven by their value “rudder”, their sense of emotional OE. Combined with imaginational and intellectual OE, these people have a powerful perception of the world. “I can hear the grass screaming when my dad cuts the lawn! I shout at him to STOP and he (again) just shakes his head. I can’t bear to watch.”…”
continuing on:
“…The third factor
The third aspect of developmental potential, the third factor, is a drive toward individual growth and autonomy. The third factor is critical as it applies one’s talents and creativity toward autonomous expression, and second, it provides motivation to strive for more and to try to imagine and achieve goals currently beyond one’s grasp. (Dąbrowski was clear to differentiate third factor from free will. He felt that free will did not go far enough in capturing the motivating aspects that he attributed to third factor. For example, an individual can exercise free will and show little motivation to grow or change as an individual. Third factor specifically describes a motivation—a motivation to become one’s self. This motivation is often so strong that in some situations we can observe that one needs to develop oneself and that in so doing, it places one at great peril. This feeling of “I’ve gotta be me” especially when it is “at any cost” and especially when it is expressed as a strong motivator for self-growth is beyond the usual conceptualization ascribed to free will.
A mixed blessing?
Dąbrowski called OE “a tragic gift” to reflect that the road of the person with strong OE is not a smooth or easy one. Potentials to experience great highs are also potentials to experience great lows. Similarly, potentials to express great creativity hold the likelihood of experiencing a great deal of personal conflict and stress. This stress both drives development and is a result of developmental conflicts, both intrapsychic and social. Suicide is a significant risk in the acute phases of this stress. The isolation often experienced by these people heightens the risk of self-harm.
Dabrowski believed that the authentic individual would choose the higher path as the clear and obvious one to follow (erasing the ambivalences and ambitendencies of unilevel conflicts). IF the person’s actual behavior subsequently falls short of the ideal, internal disharmony and a drive to review and reconstruct one’s life often follow. Multilevelness thus represents a new and powerful type of conflict, a conflict that is developmental in Dabrowski’s approach.
Given their genuine (authentic) prosocial outlook, people achieving higher development also raise the level of their society. Prosocial here is not just support of the existing social order. If the social order is lower and you are adjusted to it, then you also reflect the lower (negative adjustment in Dabrowski’s terms, a Level I feature). Here, prosocial is a genuine cultivation of social interactions based on higher values. These positions often conflict with the status quo of a lower society (positive maladjustment). In other words, to be maladjusted to a low-level society is a positive feature…”
My tragedy at this point is that i can so fully imagine such a better world. the way it ought to be. where i feel it should have been already by now. i can see it. i can smell it. i envision it to such an extent it is so real. i dream awake. but these characters (psychopaths) are the only weeds getting in the way of it’s realization. (sigh) i truly need to have a cup of tea with Confuscious and Socrates later… (he he..)
Mike
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 2:18pm
midlifecrisis says:
Done … thankyou for your thoughtful response. The traits (OEs) that you identify with are listed also in Sandra Brown’s book Women who love Psychopaths – just in different words – will have a look tonight and post the wording of the corresponding traits. It’s exactly that combo that gets us stuck and keeps us hoping for a brighter tomorrow.
Oxy LOVE that list – wow it is comprehensive. Think you should write a book around it and publish as a dating manual
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 2:22pm
blueskies says:
I love your list too Oxy D. REALY trusting and believing in your own moral boundaries, knowing what is and isnt okay for you, and that its okay to have them and believe in yourself and your instinct is powerful ( like duh?!) But its not an easy place to get to from where most of us have begun this journey from.x
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 2:34pm
blueskies says:
Oxdrover’s post is one of the best things I (really needed to)
read for a while.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 2:48pm
geminigirl says:
Oxy, did you read my post re NewLilys death? I cant understand why you havent mentioned it. Maybe its because you are still in Texas and havent as yet read the more recent blogs. Love, Gem.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 4:48pm
autisticsouls says:
The Ninth International Congress of the Institute for Positive Disintegration in Human Development,
Dates: Thursday – Saturday July 22-24, 2010, St. Charles, IL
http://www.hoagiesgifted.com/whats_new.htm
Living With Intensity: Understanding the Sensitivity, Excitability, and the Emotional Development of Gifted Children, Adolescents, and Adults
http://www.amazon.com/Living-I.....amp;sr=1-1
I drive people nuts with my obsessions usually but in my defense this time i didn’t bring Dabrowski up. just let me know when i’m going too ‘out there” and i readily tone myself down…
Mike
Post Scriptum: Asperger’s theory does about-face: Rather than ignoring others, researchers think spectrum sufferers care too much by Maia Szalavitz
http://www.thestar.com/article/633688
A groundbreaking study suggests people with autism-spectrum disorders such as Asperger’s do not lack empathy – rather, they feel others’ emotions too intensely to cope. People with Asperger’s syndrome, a high functioning form of autism, are often stereotyped as distant loners or robotic geeks. But what if what looks like coldness to the outside world is a response to being overwhelmed by emotion – an excess of empathy, not a lack of it? For the full research study, read The intense world syndrome – an alternative hypothesis for autism by Henry Markram , Tania Rinaldi and Kamila Markram
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 4:51pm
blueskies says:
Done, I missed your reply:( apologies! Thankyou.x and yes don’t we all wish for a fast forward button!? What you said is really helpful. and true.
My G.P said to me the other day, the only thing that is reliable in this world is change, and things will change they wont always be like this. i know she’s right but when I feel like this crap is never ending, and there is no button, I am glad LF ( you guys) is here.x
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 5:23pm
blueskies says:
* ooh I just used the swanky new edit button to correct a mistake in my post! That wasn’t here before!very useful for dufus’s like me
yay Donna! *
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 5:36pm
midlifecrisis says:
Wow Mike – thanks for the links – this theory is highly interesting to me although I am not sure I agree with developmental potential being fixed at birth. We have to remember that this theory was developed in 1964, long before brain scans revealed the brain to have the capacity for plasticity and focussed change.
When you wrote about fully submerging oneself in experience, the theory of flow sprang to mind (you must be a mind reader too!) I really agree with the theory of flow – Cziksentmihalya (wrong spelling I know~!) definitely nailed the description of complete absorption and engrossment with his description of flow. Engrossment leads me to another theory – Nell Noddings writes about the experience of love being one of complete engrossment with the other – of wanting to empty out one’s soul in order to contain that of the other for a while to completely understand them.
So where am I going with this? All three theories point mostly to creative, sensitive and generative humans. OEs definitely resonate with the concept of ‘highly sensitive individuals’, the concept of flow as a state is a natural state of being for the sensate among us … and those who experience emotions more profoundly are more likely to want that deep soul experience as described by Noddings.
All three theories also point to extreme natural innate vulnerabilities to psychopath relationships. With the OEs we are naturally more sensitive and more emotionally expressive, therefore more likely to enter into alternate consciousness in flow with another person – this might explain the almost ‘mythical’ experience of these relationships. And due to our emotionality we are more likely to take on the other’s soul, little knowing that the soul we are presented with is false – a reflection of our own soul in fact.
Done … here’s what Sandra Brown says about Women who love psychopaths … The psychopath score is on the left after the descriptor and the women’s score is on the right just next to it.
Temperament Traits of the Psychopath and His Women
Temperament Traits Typical
Psychopath Women Who Love Psychopaths
Excitement Seeking High Moderately High
NS1-Exploratory Excitability High High
NS2-Impulsiveness High Average
NS3-Extravagance High Moderately High
NS4-Disorderliness High Moderately High
Relationship Investment Total Low High
RD1-Sentamentality Low High
RD3-Attachment Low High
RD4-Dependence Low High
Harm Avoidance Total Low Mixed
HA1-Anticipatory Worry Low Moderately High
HA2-Fear of Uncertainty Low Average
HA3-Shyness Very Low Very Low
HA4-Fatigability Low Low
And here are the character traits of the two – again psychopath first then the woman partner – we can see here high emotionality that counterbalances the psychopath’s lack.
Figure 8.2
Character Traits of the Psychopath and His Women
Character Traits Typical
Psychopath Women Who Love Psychopaths
Cooperativeness Low High
C1-Social Acceptance Low High
C2-Empathy Low High
C3-Helpfulness Low High
C4-Compassion Low High
C5-Integrated Conscience Low Moderately High
Self-Directedness (SD) Total Low High
SD1-Responsibility No Data High
SD2-Purposefulness No Data High
SD3-Resourcefulness No Data High
SD-4 Self-Acceptance No Data High
SD-5 Congruent Habits No Data High
Self-Transcendence Low Average
ST-1 Self-Forgetfulness Low Low Average
ST-2 Transpersonal Identification Low Low Average
ST-3 Spiritual Acceptance Low Moderately High
This comes from page 148 of Women who love psychopaths by Sandra Brown. Liane Leedom is mentioned as devising the measurement tool for the research. Hopefully this makes clear to people that you were balancing his negative traits with your own ’super traits’. Although the book specifically names women – it is probably also applicable to men in these relationships with psychopathic women.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 7:15pm
glinderella says:
SO…in my opinion and personal experience, this forgiveness edict is another way for society and disordered individuals to quell the righteous anger and inner spiritual rebellion against injustice of the highest order. It is a way to continue to induce guilt and self-doubt in the target/victim and leave him/her open to more self torture for NOT forgiving and this part of the process, I believe will come on its own and in its own time…what is MOST important in my belief is your own healing and developing one’s own ability to be aware of predation and the red flags. Self love…healthy self love and self healing will hopefully be the antidote to further betrayals. Let forgiveness go for now and get the scent of the target off of you…don’t worry about them…I have learned they will find some other supply…BUT NOT ME ANYMORE!
Blessings
G
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 7:28pm
midlifecrisis says:
Bingo Glinderella – we don’t have to forgive them – we don’t have to dwell in bitterness either – there is a middle ground – remembering what they did and not liking it and saving it as a debt if they ever come back
And we are best to focus on ourselves rather than them – you are right – they get new disciples quickly!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 7:55pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Autisticsouls: -
Mike – so, if everything is joy (no particles existent), and held together with love (the vajraya buddhist theory), and everything that we perceive is as it is (a table looks like something with 4 legs or so, and a top) because we collectively believe it into this form………….tell us what this world that you can taste looks like. tell it detail by detail – so that we can begin to imagine it, also.
one step
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:36pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlifecrisis – i diggin’ the ‘life after crisis’ name …maybe in a few months,eh?!
your above long posts are awesome. x
one step
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:38pm
glinderella says:
Dear Midlifecrisis–
Thank you for your welcoming acknowledgement to my beginner postings here on this very powerful forum….there is so much wisdom here and I appreciate you all!
G
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:35pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
last couple of days i am feeling kinda odd. I see anger on a big scale – but not at the spath, but definitely related to the the trauma and reverb from her work.
i connected with someone new, not a love interest, and didn’t hear back over a few days after sending a few emails. there was a mounting sense of betrayal, and then the anger came. and grew. and grew. i sent another email asking if my original email had gotten through. they hadn’t.
i recognized that i have no skin on me, and that i dind’t know how to deal with the potential that i had been betrayed. I have taken SO much shit from people.
I am doing pretty good with people i know, ‘cept for wanting to x out my two closest friends – those relationships are damaged by my time with the spath and i am just tired to death with tha t ‘look’ fi i even talk about this stuff for 10 minutes. they are good people but i am not happy with how they are treating me. i am giving it time, till i am further out of the fog, and they, who have significant challenges right now also, have some time to get more stable. it’s good that they are still in my life, but they are no so much in my life.
i don’t know how i will meet new people. I network a lot looking for work. and through my work. i like it. i am tired the last few days – and have gone 5 days now !!! without taking something to put me to sleep. i am just staying up late and letting myself fall asleep – i am much more mentally awake during the day, but am way more tired at the end of the day – i’d like to understand that dynamic. any ideas appreciated. i think my system is changing, maybe there is some healing happening. i just wanna sleep and i am willing to lay in bed, and just relax a bit. i couldn’t do that for months – i have been knocking myself out at night for a year now. for lots of reasons.
i did a couple of things last weekend. went to dinner with a boy i crushed on at 17 – who i hadn’t seen since then. he is emotionally vacant. he said something to me about the time when we were 17 and i didn’t understand…so i said, ‘what do you mean by that?’ Snort. a spath-seeking behemoth has been unleashed on the world with my having that line in my arsenal! He still didn’t make any sense…and i watched myself paraphrase…still didn’t make sense. but the important thing was, i paraphrase; i do other’s work. i did it NON stop with the spath. i do it all the fucking time. i have to stop. and this scared me a bit too.
i feel vulnerable.
then i went to this thing Sunday night. a local queer film fest and a local cafe teamed together to do a speed dating thing for dates for the film fest. given my marketing background, i though this was brilliant. and i want to meet people. so i went. i treated it quite casually, ans a way to meet more folk in the queer community (you know, REAL people, aka, not on screen queer people – which is WHY i was on line where the bitch spath caught me). I was, not surprisingly the oldest person there. expected that. just under 20 folks there. 2 minutes of talking with each. would go to a film with about half of them. i used it to watch how i react to people and what they bring forward. there was one guy who was obviously whacky brilliant – the sort i would be really attracted to talking to. but given my spth experience i recoiled. i dunna wanna deal with whacky – even non spath whacky. toooo much work, tooo much attention needed from me. there was one woman, 2nd oldest to me, who talke daobut loving nature, and BOOM, my walls came down – man, I’m easy…Talked to a lovely young man named dharma, which means buddhist teachings. and to a few other folk who i would hang out with. being a uni town, these were almost all students, and most of them were pretty burnt out. one girl was about 20, and sooooo young. (no offence to our new 20 yr old here!) it was all interesting. i am having some issues around my esteem – the age thing. erghhh.
i am also about to not have a job. and the fear has risen up again like crazy. i am looking and applying, but it isn’t good in this town and the fright is coming up.
ahhh, i am dealing wiht a lot of rejection. and i am angry at some and deflated by some.
i have managed to have some very good ’stop it’ momnets with negative htinking. I found out about a job less than a day before the app. was due. i took the day off work and did the app. i wasn’t happy with my cover letter – but i only had so much time. i started in on myself, w’ell, i did the best i could given the time..’ And i just stopped in my tracks, stood still breathed deep – and said, ‘when is it going to be enough, when will it/i be enough?’ and htat stopped all that bullshit in my head. completely.
i think maybe my chemistry is changing right now. changing drug regimes for my allergies. my face is so swollen. i need help with my lymphatic and adrenal systems. someone suggested an old Ayurvedic remedy for a thousand aliments, which i am trying. have to give it a few weeks to see what happens.
i am tired. i’ll stop now.
i see that i have to find my esteem, and protect it, from the internal negativity and from the wearing nature of trying to find work in this depressed town. those 2 weeks when i didn’t worry about getting work and money – that was sooo nice. i have to try to get back to that even though the challenges that slept for a couple of weeks have awoken.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 12:28am
midlifecrisis says:
One step = that’s an excellent phrase “I have no skin” – that is so evocative for me. I am still pretty raw from all this.I have self esteem issues too – it’s very normal after effectively losing years of our lives … and for what>? To be a pawn in a game for someone’s amusement? That is just such a waste.
Like you I am older now and for really the first time, I am super aware of it. And I resent him for taking those beautiful years away from me and wasting them at his own disposal. I could have worked such magic with them and instead they are gone and nothing good happened.
One step you will get another job … you know that deep down. You always break the odds – anyone else struggling with health issues probably would have given up by now, but you keep going. When you get the new job, a new worry will emerge to fill your mind and occupy your focus – this is the nature of life. And we get through it by just putting one foot in front of the other – one step at a time
The ups and downs you are describing are NORMAL = I know that probably is little consolation … but you are going through a major restructuring right now so some grief for the discarded parts and beliefs is normal … as is tiredness. It is an exhausting process.
Have you thought about a juice fast? I’ve been thinking of doing one for a while and we could support each other through it from across the world. Maybe that;s not quite right for your current circumstances … I see it as purging out the old to make way for the new. I would probably do about 3-4 days and then gradually come back to fruits and vegies.
Like you I am staying away from ‘wacky’ and ‘unique’ people – I just want stable and responsible adults in my life from this point on. I don’t want to be anyone’s mother or advisor. I would rather interact with equals all the way. But look at you going out and socialising – that’s great! They’re not going to all work out to be soulmates, but interacting with new people is great fun
I chose the name crisis because there is a dual meaning of both danger and opportunity in Chinese – that’s a good description of this time at the moment!
Hope you sleep well and look after yourself – you’re an awesome person and someday soon somebody close to you is going to recognise that.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:22am
ErinBrock says:
ONE:
‘i am much more mentally awake during the day, but am way more tired at the end of the day – i’d like to understand that dynamic. any ideas appreciated.’
It’s called LIVING!!!
Good going girl….you are really aware…
I also use the test dating thing….not speed dating, more like testing myslef in public with anyone….
I have learned so much about myself from this process…..I know what triggers me in others, I learned how I respond to backing up or letting go….etc…..
It’s a pretty cool process especially when your totally aware of yourself!
It makes me wonder wht the hell I’ve missed all these years by not knowing myself!
I’m really happy your moving along and sharing the process with us!
THANKS and Kudos to you darlen!
XXOO
EB
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:54am
Spirit40 says:
Cat, I agree with your post above, I have not hidden anything from my son, reality is what it is. If someone is pure evil shouldnt we protect ourselves and our children. Explain where the cause of the chaos is coming from. Children get it before we do some times. My ex tried to erode the relationship I have with my son, telling him that I am mean and “crazy”… it was him who was creating the drama and chaos in the attempt to bring us down with him… it did not work.. My son had a drawing of me for art class as an angel, the heading read who I admire the most in my life and the things that I strive to achieve for both of us now living in peace.. I do not think anyone who tries can break the bond between a mother and their child…they can unlearn the brainwashing and gas lighting once they see their fathers for who they truly are and they will ….in order for them to “win” they have to bring us down to the failure level with them…rise above ..
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 6:38am
one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – thanks!
am felling kinda raw and vulnerable. i hate being here, ’cause i know it is based in a lack of trust in myself. not sure how to navigate this. gotta find the love for myself in it all. which means, go slow and do some quiet stuff to balance the ‘fear in the world’, and keep working on unpacking the gift of ‘doo’ the spath left for me.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 8:06am
one_step_at_a_time says:
miss midlife! i am going to look into this disintegration theory more deeply. everything you and autisticsouls have said about it is intriguing.
this thing: ‘I could have worked such magic with them and instead they are gone and nothing good happened. ‘ I see hear year on this!
i have had this other thing going on the last couple of days. I am talking to the spath in my head – I have never talked to her in her true form, in my head or otherwise, and i am talking to her in my head in a way that is like i want to talk to her in real life. I KNOW that this is a reaction to not outing her right now, to saying some things about her anonymously in a public forum, to the fear that is rising around the how hard it is to get work and having no financial resources, and the persistant knowledege that others i know (even though only slightly) are still in her thrall as they have no idea who and what is behind those people they are talking to.
and what am i saying to her? I AM YELLING AT HER UNCONTROLLABLY. I AM FUCKING ENRAGED.
maybe i can find a place to be this weekend where i can yell aloud. wish i still had a vehicle. such a good place to scream. i think that i will see if i can get my hands on a car for saturday. i have a lot of stuff i need to do, and screaming is on the list, and driving always helps when i feel this trapped.
I never said anything to her. didn’t know who she was. i have never said anything TO her. and now that i have denied myself outing her for the moment, i have a desire to talk to her – well, not talk to her, but yell at her (what a sorry loser bitch she is. whoa.)
she is a sorry loser bitch who has been doing this for 30 years – always pretending to be someone other than she is. many others than she is. has ruined lives and marriages, and left a swath of destruction.
it took me quite a while to get all the puppets in the shoe. that’s pretty good now. but i know when i even think of the cast of characters – and there are all still active – i shake inside. in rage. completely unhinged – but i can’t hear the words yet. I need to listen.
i never pushed back against her. there was NC after he resurrected. rage is a boiling!
x one step.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 8:27am
one_step_at_a_time says:
-warning: graphic violence-
i started to write a long piece about forgiveness the day this article was blogged. It needed so much more time and attention than i have been able to give it. it’s frustrating and I want to try to finish it.
i have been a sucker for the idea of forgiveness. i have been brainwashed to see it as ideal in all cases. it isn’t. the hurt and rage and everything else needs to be honed to a fine point and wielded wrathfully as a tool for protection for self, others and society – in big or small ways, in grounded thoughtful ways. ( i use the term ‘wrath’ in a buddhist sense here – wrath is right protective action, without anger)
right now, i am, however, wanting to hack the b**ch to death. ouu, do not fuck with one step. i do not think i have ever felt such rage. the picture is getting clearer in my head. she is in chunks and i am still yelling at her. a carnage of rage.
i want to annihilate her for what she did to me. and to those of you who know the story line – i am just now able to say, HE betrayed me. I spend so much time understanding it is HER, everything is her, but i htink to access the rage it has been important to say it was HIM. the beauty boy betrayed me. epically.
i saw an article or a post here yesterday, about the epic nature of these relationships – i need to find it again and look more deeply into this.
bless you all.
one step
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 9:50am
one_step_at_a_time says:
‘Since sociopaths, with intention, repeatedly violate our inborn social contract, perhaps they should never be forgiven.’
i think this goes for my N dad, too. i think that recognizing that he won’t change, does what he does with disregard for others, and never try to take him/ let him back in, regarldless of whatever small ‘reeling in’ gestures he indulges in.
recognizing him like this – and never forgiving him, will keep me safest.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 8:02pm
Stargazer says:
I really understand about feeling vulnerable. I’ve been going through so much this week with my dying cat. I honestly didn’t know how I’d get through the 3-day work week with some of the backstabbing nasty women. I figured out a way. I got to work, said hello to everyone politely, then went in my office and shut my door. I only went out of my way to speak to the nice people, and pretty much ignored the others. Of course I have an excuse this week that my cat is dying. But it occurred to me that I don’t need an excuse to do whatever I have to do to protect myself from nasty people.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 10:23pm
Stargazer says:
You have every right to feel outraged, one step! What they do is really unthinkable. I cannot say I’ve “forgiven” that sociopath I encountered. I simply don’t think about him any more. But I would never in a million years consider letting him back into my life in any way, shape, or form.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 10:31pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
right on Star!
funny how grief can show us things, make us draw lines in the sand.
how is your cat doing? i went through 2 years of chronic renal failure with my bei. if you want to connect off blog, just let donna know, and she can give you my email address.
take good care.
best,
one step
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 10:37pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
star – i can turn any good idea against me – and forgiveness is one that i have on many occasions – and it has taken the form of letting people continue to abuse my nature and time and love.
fuck ‘em.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 11:09pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
star – i guess ‘traditonal wisdom’ got it backwards – better to forget than forgive! HAH!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 11:11pm
midlifecrisis says:
One step – those violent images are normal – they aren’t normal for us good people in regular life but they are normal given the circumstances … these people betrayed us and destroyed us. To roll over and forgive them would be inhuman and inauthentic – then the pent up anger we denied would destroy us all over. It is best to get it out.
Hugs hugs hugs – I am going through the same if it’s any consolation, which it probably isn’t!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 11:29pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
well, we could be writing a good gory script!
i did a REALLY detailed fantasy of control (back when i thought he existed), and when i found out SHE existed i did something even more evil! LOL. I’ll tell you sometime
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 11:32pm
Done says:
midlife,
Thanks for posting that Sandra Brown bit. It seems accurate to me.
one step- I know exactly about that rage you were talking of earlier. My Ex made me understand how people can murder. No one has ever infuriated me the way he did. And he did it on a consistent basis.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 5:17pm
Renewedhope says:
I am having a hard day today thinking about my exS woman. I think about just how much I loved her for so long..that I would have done anything for her as a friend first then as a lover. And I got angry today knowing that she laughed at my love for her and threw it aside 3 different times. Because my love for her was a weakness. A tool to throw back at my face. That makes me feel like a fool every time I think about it..and it angers me all over again! You know.. if they don’t really care for you(me) then fine say so and let us all move on! No! They instead have to “Use” that fact and beat us to death with it!
Fortunately for me..it is that anger that continues to keep me from contacting her. Because I don’t want to go through being used again. Whatever love I have(which I admit may always be there) will just be there. She is never going to know it again. Forgetting and forgiving is not in my mind or heart at this point and may never be.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 6:20pm
Matt says:
Renewedhope:
I understand well that feeling of having done anything for your S-ex, first as a friend, then as a lover. I’ve been almost 16 months NC and it took me awhile to realize that we get so heavily emotionally invested in a cluster-Bs happiness, stability, finances, work-happiness (hell, just keeping a job), the list is endless — that we lose ourselves in the process.
I grew up in a house where physical and emotional abuse was the norm. I now see that with the S-ex I was trying to give him what I had needed and never gotten. I think my S-ex (and all cluster-Bs) are masters at reading what our “need” is and then, as you put it, “beat us to death with it.”
I have spent 50+ years of my life trying to please these creatures which can’t be satisfied — from my S father and malignant N mother, through a string of lovers, each progressively worse thant the last, until the S-ex entered my life. Maybe I had to learn the lesson of S-ex to finally realize that my own needs were worth something and that I had the right to set boundaries to protect myself.
Stay with the anger for as long as you need to. You’ll give it up after awhile because you’ll realize that it is too exhausting to continue to live like that forever and also, as you begin to reassemble a new life for yourself, you’ll also realize that you don’t want to waste a moment more than necessary in dealing with S-ex. But, the anger is a very healthy emotion in the beginning because it gives you the strength to do whatever you have to do to settle business with the S-ex and to take care of yourself. If you haven’t done so already, read Kathy Hawke’s article on anger. It is liberating.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 7:14pm
jelltogether says:
I haven’t been on here in a long time because i did relapse. I just couldn’t believe that my spath was REALLy one. So once again, I tried to believe that he had really changed. I know that I am no where near ready to forgive. His latest betrayal is so fresh. He took such a long time to woo me and make me feel that things were really working out between us. One day he told me that we would be together forever and he wanted to grow old with me. Within hours he went out and didn’t return for 30 hours. We don’t live in the same state, he had to move back to his home state because he couldn’t find a job in mine (he never really looked and of course, I was paying the bills). The phone was always off when he visited his “cousin”. When I asked why he had to turn off his cell, he said because it was it was guy time. Then suddenly all the symptoms were there. He was suddenly angry when I called. I asked him if he was seeing someone and he got angry and told me he was not. He said ” you will be the first to know if I have a girlfriend.” That made me laugh as I was always the last to know. Then i got the “I love you but I’m not in love with you” then it was ” he was going through something” so I know all the signs of his cheating by now so that was the clincher. Sure enough, his own kid told me that a woman was driving him to work and letting him use her truck. He has no drivers license which I am sure this woman doesn’t know. For the past two weeks the only time he can be reached is when he is at work. And did I mention that he gave me herpes and we both knew that! Now he is with this woman, who is unaware that he has this disease that will affect her whole life like mine but it is possible that she had given it to him because he was living with his cousin before he came back to me. I feel so low because I now I feel scarred for life because I believe I will never have a chance to have another healthy relationship because I have this disease. He goes on to his next victim. I loved that someone wrote that they were giving their spath to the other person as the worst gift that they could receive. I wish I had gotten out sooner because I did get tested after his other cheats and was clean. Now it’s too late and I feel humiliated and ruined in a way that his financial hurts didn’t even approach. I know spaths have no conscience. I sadly believed him when we got the diagnosis that it didn’t matter because we were going to be together forever this time. I have nightmares about confronting this new woman. I am having a hard time concentrating at work and I feel sick that I have ruined my life and he just goes on creating his evil with no consequence. I say that but his children don’t want anything to do with him, he has no real friends and he will die of drink probably so I guess there is some retribution. I know that I loved someone who is not real in a sense but I have hard time realizing that there really is no person there only a shadow that shifts with the daylight. I am angry with my self about so many things not the least of which is that I am having a hard time wrapping my head around, still, that there is no man there who really loved me like he said over and over, only a person who will do anything or say anything to get what he wants at that moment. I know that this woman is just another means to an end, but I too, feel that she is being wooed, having sex with him and getting the money from a job that he has for the moment and I have bills to pay that are from him freeloading on me. He is so much fun women think when they meet him. Very seductive and sexy. Then I think, but now he is diseased too and spreading the wealth. I derive no comfort from that though. I want to hate him but can’t seem to get there. I can say the words but I miss the person who I talked to five times a day. My morning wake up and good night call. The loneliness is setting in and I feel now that I will be alone the rest of my life because of this disease because who will want me with it? Pretty sad and pathetic I know but I am scared to death in so many ways. Not feeling hopeful at all.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 9:27pm
Done says:
Jelltogether,
Wow. Well I guess I just want to give you some empathy. When I first read about Sociopaths I was convinced my ex was one, but still ended up re-convincing myself that he wasn’t REALLY one. Boy was that a mistake. I moved across the country to be with him only to be confronted with many of the same lines you were: “I’ll always love you but I”m not in love with you” “I’m going through a rough time, I need to figure things out” and of course he cheated and is now living “happily” with the new victim.
Mine too gave me an STD, many years ago long before I had any idea what a SP was. Fortunately it could be cleared up with antibiotics, but I remember at the time how enraged I felt and when I confronted him he tried to tell me that I must have been sleeping around. Even years later he would tell me I got it somewhere else (when he’s the only man I’ve been with in over ten years now). He KNEW he gave it to me but would blatantly lie to my face about it-it drove me mad. Now I now this is just him “gaslighting.”
I was NC for 6 months and then broke down and went to see him. He acted as if nothing had ever happened. I also learned that he now has a car which his new girlfriend gave to him. (I always had to cart his ass around). Breaking NC definitely took it’s toll on me emotionally, but also helped me see that nothing has changed, he’s the same miserable person using this new girl. I’m sure if I gave him my car he’d come back (and as much as I sometimes think I want that–I DONT.
I also understand the loneliness. I feel like I might be so damaged from this relationship that I will never find anyone to have a normal relationship with. Also, I can’t believe I wasted such a huge chunk of my life, I’ll be 30 this year and am starting to worry that all the decent men are married already.
As for the herpes, I think it can be managed fairly easily now, and I don’t think it’s unrealistic to hope that you will find someone NORMAL to spend your life with that is willing to overlook that. Everyone has made mistakes in their past, so try not to get too discouraged.
Hang in there, the loneliness will come in waves. The good part about that though is that there are lulls in it, and the longer you go on without him the greater the length between those crashing waves of misery.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:30pm
Renewedhope says:
Dear Jet; I understand alot of what you are going through. However I have been lucky in the STD dept never being positive for anything.and pray I never will. But let me address that because you seem to think your life has ended romantically because of Herpes. Here’s what you do dear.. Before you can even think about a new love you need to wipe this scumbag from your brainwaves permanently! This is no easy task and I am having a hard time today not feeling love for this S woman who strung me along for 27 years. First look at this like any other addiction. Make Today- Day One and start counting Day #1 Of No Contact(NC) from said scumbag.
Like Elizabeth Kubler Ross wrote about the 5 steps of dying.. (And freeing yourself from a love relationship is like losing someone through death) You are going to have to go through the 5 steps:Denial,Anger,bargaining,Depression and finally Acceptance. Once you get through this and ample time goes by then you can think about dating again. And NO! Your life is NOT over! You are one step ahead of S-man because you are honest about the Herpes to yourself. You will not place someone else in harms way because you are moral and decent. You then go and find someone just like you who lives with herpes . I have seen many a want ad for lonely hearts that say: Woman with herpes seeking relationship with man who is the same. You will find a man who is not only being honest with himself but with you as well. And as ironic as the situation is.. you already have something in common to start off with. I may sound off the wall but am being honest with you. You are not alone! If you want to get past this you can.
Keep the faith and Godspeed to you!
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:46pm
TooLate says:
Timeheals,
You wrote: “to Hopeforfuture…Don’t bother trying to “warn” the ex about her Psycho…even if you manage to contact her, she won’t believe you…she’ll tell him…he’ll say you’re crazy…she’ll tell you you’re crazy…and it will make you crazy!!!! Don’t waste your time, she’ll find out on her own….go NO CONTACT You CAN do it, and it WILL get better and easier.”
I agree with you completely!
I have also heard this “NO CONTACT” thing before, in more than one place. I also know it from personal experience. If you confide ANYTHING to a person under the grip of a Sociopath … they will NOT believe you. The Sociopath has their loyalty and they will stick to the sociopath like glue. You will only come out on the losing end, giving the sociopath more ammunition to torture you with. They WANT you to feel miserable, and they will manipulate the circumstance and use it against you emotionally. Don’t give him the satisfaction.
May I tell you about a book that first gave me insight into the life I was living? The book is called “Say Goodbye to Your PDI (Personality Disordered Individual)” … and the cover further reads: “Recognize People Who Make You Miserable and Eliminate Them from Your Life for Good!”. It was written by Stan Kapuchinski, M.D..
When I stumbled across the book in a bookstore on my lunch break, I was still with living the life with my husband. I was consistently in a miserable state. I knew that something was seriously wrong with my life, but I couldn’t put it into words back then. I often felt as though I was the problem and I couldn’t figure out how I went wrong or how I could fix it.
I sat down with this book and a few others … just paging through them to pass the time. When I reached Dr. Kapuchinski’s book, I browsed through it until something caught my eye. It was chapter 4, titled “The Smooth Operator: The Antisocial Personality Disorder”
The more I read, the more I found myself saying “It’s like he wrote this chapter based on MY HUSBAND!” and “This is my life for the last 12 years in brutal detail!” Light bulbs were going off in my head … sirens blaring!
It changed my life. At the end of the chapter, it tells you what you CAN do in dealing with an ASPD and what you CANNOT do. I studied this list. I realized that I had, without realizing it, changing the way I interacted with my husband. I had begun to question everything. I had begun to say no to him. I had begun to use facts to support my statements. I began to stand my ground. And, as the book predicts what will happen if you do these things … you can expect the ASPD’s behavior to worsen. The book was right, his behavior DID worsen … and that created the unbearable tension that caused me to leave him.
There were SO many tips on dealing with an ASPD, that I honestly think I wouldn’t have made it out of the relationship without them.
Part of the advice?
“RUN from mental and physical abuse.
DO NOT confide secrets, hopes, plans, dreams, and fantasies.
DO NOT trust him (if you think you are the only one who is getting the truth, you are only decieving yourself)”
ASPD’s use your feelings to control you. The more information you allow them to have, the more clever ways they will find to manipulate you with it. They are EXPERTS at this … and they have usually spent a lifetime honing their skills.
No contact? Absolutely!!! I quit posting any details of my life on Facebook because some of his family are in my “friends list”. I quit posting to my journal on DeviantArt for the most part, because my daughter still checks on my page now and then. Everyone who is aligned with him will feed him info on me and my life. I’m not giving it. I’ve gone silent.
Deviant Art is a website for artists and amatures to post their artwork for free, whether it be photography, literature, paintings, sketches, or whatever you’re into. Right after I left my husband I used the site to express my emotions. I journaled about some of the bad dreams I was having. It was a healthy way for me to deal with my feelings … and that is where my daughter has been lurking … sharing all of this info with my husband. I began to realize that they are probably enjoying reading about the emotional torture I have been feeling since leaving him.
I miss the site, but I will no longer give them significant information. Now if I post something in my journal there, it is only about the positive feelings I have (at rare moments).
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 11:56pm
timeheals says:
TooLate,
You are soooo right also in all that your post conveys. I guess because we all seem to be the kind, considerate type that the S/P’s seek out in the first place, it’s no surprise that we actually try to WARN the new GF’s instead of acting bitter and jealous towards them. (Well we may be THINKING that it would be nice if she tripped and fell while on a date with him, totally embarrassing herself with her ripped stockings and chipped tooth) but…we really don’t want anyone to experience the spath rath, so we give it a go.
As USUAL, we should know better…he USES anything we say to work AGAINST us and work in his FAVOR!! And she is so under his spell, she can hear story after story of his lying and cheating, but she still believes that for HER he’s changed. And WE are the ones that end up with the looney toons reputation. Of course she loves that!! It makes her look even better, so the whole thing blows up right in our face.
And this goes along with them using EVERY bit of info we tell them. I still look back and go ahhhhaaaahh, so THAT’S why he asked me that, or that’s another way he used me.
I think for those who are “debating” whether their partner is a P/S or not…if you can just take EVERY question you have ever had about problems in your relationship, that you never had an explanation for before, and answer them with “BECAUSE HE’S A PSYCHOPATH!”…then he probably is! For example; why would he say he loves me and then still be looking on 4 different dating sites? answer:BECAUSE HE’S A P! or how could someone sleep with 3 different women on the same weekend? or how can it not even phase a man to almost lose his GF to suicide? answer:BECAUSE HE’S A P!
They do what they do because that is what they do…
Be strong and post HERE…WE will love to read your thoughts good or bad, happy or sad…it’s all nourishment
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:44am
ErinBrock says:
Jell:
Girl…..I went back for 28 years…….we all do it…..because we all want to believe the best……turn this into a lesson for you….because it’s there….
And let me tell you……each time you have an outbreak….you’ll develop the anger….if NOT sooner.
I was given a gift by the S too……but i’ll tell ya……
I’ll take Herpes over a Cluster B….ANY day……
I’ve had good luck with dr. Bronners mint soap and I add tea tree oil to it…..use that to wash…..and at first ‘feeling’ of an outbreak….I pop acyclovir (sp).
But…..funny thing is…..I haven’t had an outbreak since he’s been gone…..
And BOY….do i remember my last outbreak…..it was bad……the worst I’ve ever had. Stress will bring it on….
And it just so happened to be the same time he wanted to reconcile……or at least have sex……
So this time, I ever so kindly obliged!!!!
Maybe he was left with the ‘back atcha’ gift he brought home……….
Only……EVERYWHERE!!!!!! I cheered him on, to be ‘amorous’ and ‘adventurous’ with me that night! Take me darling….ALL of me……
FUCKER!
Isn’t that called re-gifting!
That was the last time we were together……I went NC after that!
There was NO way I’d ever sleep with him again…..who knows where that landed up. I have visions of lesions on his face/lips…throat…..
Hi…..I’m sociopath…..wanta kiss me?
Don’t be hard on yourself……the best part is….you understand it now.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 1:37am
Renewedhope says:
Remember too that these crazy loons LOVE to play games and playing two (or more) love interests against each other is a real turn on for them. (SiC)
My S ex just really gets off playing two lovers against each other and pissing the current one living with her off. She “thought she was going to get a high in April when we had planned to go up North to see her. She is curently in a Lesbian relationship and has been for 14 years.When she found out me and my wife would be going up there her first comment was” Oh good! Having you come in and (so& so) comes in.. that should really piss off “Lucky”(her current house slave) She played this horrid game on me when I was her houseboy in 83 & 93. She broke my heart both times. I wouldn’t visit her now if she paid me a million dollars. I may have an ounce of jealousy for the current houseslave but mainly just alot of PITTY. That woman is killing herself to please my ex. When a relationship is that one sided it can’t end well for the one doing all the giving. When I was with her I gave and gave and was so depressed because I never felt like I was getting anything back and I wasn’t. You have to ask yourself what the heck am I jealous about? Being SH*T on?
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:57am
geminigirl says:
EB, jelltogether,and all of you, do you know this song,{sung to the tune of “These foolish things remind me of you!”} Not taking the piss, but thought a bit of humour might help!
“The sudden memory of an old french letter,{condom}
You used to use one, till I knew you better,
Now when I piss, it stings,
These foolish things,
Remind me of you!”
With apologies to Cole Porter!
Love,
Gem.XX{Naughty!}
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:16am
amyc says:
While I can understand the concept of forgiveness being a way to let go and move forward I really feel that in some cases you just can’t forgive. Perhaps instead fo forgiving our tormenter we should work instead on forgiving ourselves. I feel that I have let myself and people I love down for believing in and continuing in a relationship with this man who consistantly hurt me and mine. I have been told that I am only guilty of having compassion. However at some point I feel that I should have seen him for the monster he is…others seemed to see it so plainly…what on earth is wrong with me? Even now, after almost a year, he can worm his way into me…when I hear of something bad happening to him I still want to help. The only thing really stopping me is how he treated my son…keeping him safe…when I should by now just say…sucks to be you. I still feel stupid and quite gullible inside. I really feel that I need to forgive myself but seem unable to find the way.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 8:41am
one_step_at_a_time says:
amyc: sometime self forgiveness comes through re engaging in life.
It comes to us through the action of doing good things for ourselves, seeing what we need to, and protecting our own.
we sometimes shame ourselves for our lack of resources and understanding, and when we act as if not ashamed, by doing good for ourselves – we forgive ourselves.
make sense?
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 1:12pm
kindheart48 says:
amyc, i feel like im about where you are right now. I was on another site last night asking my usual stupid question as to why i would sacrifice sex(he was totally impotent) for over 6 years and be insanely loyal to the s who was far from loyal to me. In essence im beating myself up over spilled milk, all i can do is move forward and be glad i guess ididn’t catch anything from him as someone abouve posted if he was able to perform i think i would have stopped him. The pretend sex we had was so fucked up (sorry to be blunt) that i now think i have issues just around sex in general but im sure i’ll be fine if the right one cmoes along. I am taking accountablility for going back hundreds of times over the years even thoug h i was seeking trauma prog, shrinks, hypnotherapy anything to keep me from giong back but im starting to forgive myself and move on from it. Time and little contact have been my salvation and i can’t even muster up being pissed with him anymore. His crackhead daugher just called and i’ve even stopped being kind to her. Im finally putting me first for a change, got a little detoured lately helping a detective (married to an n) but im back on track , he went back and i know why and how hard it is to leave. All i can do is fix me finally getting this crap after years of diversions and trying to fix and help so many people all of who are still out there and could care less about me. I was raised in alkie home and tried so hard to hep and fix my mom who died of alcohlism at 50 so i know why i became so codependent. So much easier to fix others than take care of ourselves. Im finally trying to change old behaviours and spending alot of alone time and it’s ok. I was reading some of the earlier posts and some of the horrific childhoods alot of people on here have had and i was cryingmyself thinking about my dad who passed last july, i didn’t ge t the relationship i so craved with him . I was thinking did he really love me like everyone has tol dme and i think he did he just didn’t know how to ever show me. Talk is so cheap and alot of lessons to be learned, tell my sons how much i love them even if it is uncomfortable with my older son, do it anyway. None of us asked going in the the disordered to be treated like crap ver y much the same way id din’t start drinking hoping to be an alcoholic but that was the end result. Accept, learn and move on to greater things. love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 1:44pm
Renewedhope says:
Kindheart; Talk is indeed CHEAP for these liars. That’s why they do so much of it. And as a healthy 52 yr old male I can agree with you that alot of these fakes are lousy in bed. My S woman had sex one and a half times with me over a span of 4 months. I say one was a half time because that time only consisted of alot of foreplay on my part to her. I was 26 the first time I met her, 36 the second time and i was the most sexually frustrated lover on the planet while I was with her. For her sex is non existent but the game playing and head games that leads up to sex is her strong suit. She does it to a fault! Since she will bed down anyone-male or female I wouldn’t say she is a prick tease. She is an equal opportunity destroyer! I think she would bed down a knot in tree if there were some cash sitting inside it. At least make you think your going to sometime have sex. But she never walked the walk.
I believe now I stayed with her out of the pursuit myself. Trying to win her love when she was obviously incapable of showing it to me or anyone else. i told her all the way up to the last time ispoke with her that I was angry with her for never really giving me a chance to fall in love with me. I know now that she is a sociopath. She’s probably never felt love so how could she show me?
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 2:11pm
kindheart48 says:
Renew, i was thinking about the detective i spent the better part of last year trying to help with his s/n wife and i remember him telling me alot of intimite things and i was like ” be sure to tell the therapist” kind of thing as i think alot of their intimacy issues are such telltale signs of their disorder. He told me that they did not have sex on their honeymoon night , nor the next night and i was pretty shocked to say the least. Now i know we can come up with all kinds of excuses if we want to but lets be honest, that was a redflag and that was when they were very young, still same crap 23 years later, he isn’t seeing it quite like i do mentioning how she likes to punish for months. Sure is amazing when we see them in action like in this mans case. She’s still got him brainwashed but he is seeing inklings of the light here and there and as in AA, you can’t not know what you know so he will have to find his own way but he sure was blowing me away with some of her actions. I don’t think anyone who has not been through what we’ve been through could make this crap up and they are all so boring and predictable when you watch them, not at all what i thought in the beginning, the excitment and adreneline for the challenge of what. A big loser and im so glad i see it now. Awful to watch others being tortured by these creatures and i know now what an old male friend meant when i was in the throws of it, when he said “it isn’t easy being your friend” i do get it now. love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:04pm
Renewedhope says:
Thanks for the kind words and support Kindheart! I am nor have i ever been a chauvanist pig. You won’t find a more sensitive guy than me(Not to toot my own horn or anything) I tried to reason that she was ruined by the previous men in her life because she claims she was raped 4 times in her life. But knowing how permiscuous she comes across sometimes to get what she wants, I wonder now if she put herself in those vulnerable postions to be raped(If that’s really what happened). All I know is that she never saw me as attractive even when I was in top shape in my late 30’s and she was still 15 years older than me.I am not overtly handsome but I am not a ugly dog either. Just middle of the road. Although my wife now thinks I am the cat’s meow and she is all that counts!
I read someplace here that sociopaths do not see people as attractive nor unattractive. They only see people as opportunities. Knowing now that she is N and S I believe that is what happened with me. She never really wanted me-not ever. She only wanted what I could do for her or get her monetarily.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:14pm
kindheart48 says:
yes i remember vividly when i was in my matrimonial home and i first me the s he had a tour of my home and got some details and commented ” you are very marketable” and i thought wha t a strange statment to make. That first night i asked him what had just happened with his last wife(over 20 yrs younger) as i was still trying to fig out my own marriage falling apart and his exact words were ” I just didn’ t like her anymore” and i literally laid in bed that night and could hardly blink thinking he must have meant that differently than he worded it etc. i could not wrap my mind around it and then the rest is history. He also said that first night that he could be a lving Nightmare and i thought oh he has a little temper etc. man was i in for a shock its just that when you’ve never met it you don’t know what it is. Amazing now to look back and the lack of empathy in everything he said that night i was just so in a bad place myself to protect myself. love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:19pm
kindheart48 says:
Renew, as for the detective bacause you are a male also , yes he’s very emotional and sensitive, very good looking but has to be told over and over by many people what a good guy he is and i chalked it up to her demeaning him and i really think it is the case. He dances , sings competitively , does all the cleaning, cooking etc. buys her a jag, moves walls he says and nothing makes her happy. I tried to get him to see that that is not what makes a person happy but he’s too far gone and it’s very sad to see how disturbed he has been , all i could say was im really sorry. He’s been in this for the better part of 23 years and has never had any other relationships where he was on reseiving end so i could see he needed lots of help as he was uncomfortable receiving making a huge deal about little things that werent’ much. Sad to see someone who doesn’t deserve to be treated that way but nothing i can do and i know this thankfully from my own experience. He’s been on this roller coaster for a long time and my feeling is he won’t get off until she shoves him off but i do feel for him. It does make you really pissed when you see all the wonderful people getting treated like dirt, at times im tempted to try and get even with the s and pull a fast one on him and then i remind myself as to the only thing that really pisses him off and that is complete and total ignoring of him. Im finally getting there , to that point i never thought would come where i just don’t give a rats ass about him anymore. nada , boring, who are you anyway? you werent’ worth the agony as i was told in beginning all kinds of nice things i’d like to vent with but that gives him attention right so this smart girl says , git as he was talked to me like some animal, git lost loser .
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:30pm
Renewedhope says:
I sure know what you are talking about kindheart. No one could tell me about my S. not even up to a month ago when she went off verbally on the phone and blamed our 2 month emotional affair all on me because I was married and she’s just living with someone. I have already taken blame for my half of the emptional long distance affair. She would never take blame for her half. Our mutual best friend even told me that she could have tried to dissuade me then but she said I probably wouldn’t have listen and took it as just forcing a situation I wasn’t ready for. You see, my best friend is a non active lesbian and hasn’t has a real relationship in years. I asked how come you never went after “Queenie” (S woman)? She said it was because she worked for the sheriff’s dept and took a class on criminal behavior and saw Queenie’s behavior. She was floored when I sent her the definition of a sociopath and Queenie fit almost everyone of the traits.
Having finally read the homework on sociopathy and narcissism I have finally woke up and realized I was fighting a losing battle. Forget how they change with age or maturity. S woman will never change. She would screw me over 1000 times if I gave her the opening. That is what your friend is going to have to learn. Any relationship has to be close to 50/50 if it is healthy enough to survive. Otherwise the person doing all the giving will lose the zest for living.Your friend will find this out looks like alot later than sooner. hang in there.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 7:05pm
kindheart48 says:
yes i agree and i have to get over the fact that he treated me very well and that helped me see i could actually finally after 7 years move on to cuddle with someone new , but it wasn’t to be and i knew all along he couldn’t know what he was doing but as usual i felt very sorry for him and wanted to help but i knew i was playing with fire and im glad it didn’t get any more complicated than it was already . From now on i have to find whole men who don’t need fixing or helping as i know im a magnet to them. I saw him driving his wifes jag last week earlier and it hurt and then i thought about why and it’s because i know he’s bending over backwards to keep her pleased and she will be back to treating him like dirt opposite to how i was treating him but that’s what he’s accustomed to . Someone in AA once said about me to another man, if you want her to like you treat her like shit so i was there once myself . Truth is we really didn’t want to be treated that way we just got so used to the crumbs. The detective mentioned the crumbs and the fact she could be using him so deep down he has the knowledge he just doesn’t want to beleive it . Have to let that fish go too. love kindheart
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 9:12pm
Renewedhope says:
We all must go on here. That doesn’t mean we don’t still have feelings for that person and have our weak moments. But that is what this site is for to be here for us when we feel weak or just need a pep talk. Just know that you deserve a good man but be prepared to live a life less harmful which may seem a bit boring than being with said S person. I just recently went through that with my wife of 14 years- complacency. Otherwise My S woman wouldn’t have had an opening with which to slither through. I gave her that opening even though I don’t believe in adultery or cheating. My wife certainly didn’t deserve what I did to her. I have to live with that and forgive myself for doing that and it’s hard to accept. Even though it was never sexual, an affair of the heart can still be deadly to a marriage. I was so lucky in that my wife loved me enough to stick it out and wait for me to come to my senses. We both realize now that the S woman would have dumped me anyway when she got bored..that is her M.O. It’s what she does. And I would have been out of the best thing this life has given me-a loving wife.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 11:22pm
TooLate says:
Forgiveness?
Not tonight. Tonight I am angry at all of the Spaths in this world! May they burn in hell for all eternity!!
God, are you listening to me?! Are you there? Are you deaf or just indifferent?! Teaching us sinners a lesson, or what? Where is YOUR compassion?
Grrrrrrrrrrrr !!!!!
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 2:56am
nic says:
Forgiveness?
Not tonight. Tonight I am angry at all of the Spaths in this world! May they burn in hell for all eternity!!
Very Funny.
My ex-S is dead to me. I haven’t heard from him since November 2009. Someone wrote that the new person receiving him is a gift from hell and it will be. He was just asking me to stay married to him in August and yet he drops out of our lives in November (typical S behavior). Of course I told him no. Our divorce was final in September. He wanted to get back into my life and hurt me again.
I believe forgiveness is for us and not them. I keep thinking about how I am going to react to him if he ever calls but I am not sure. I kind of have a hard time of seeing how you forgive someone who constantly keeps hurting you over and over again.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 10:11am
Renewedhope says:
This post will date me but thinking about promises that are broken by these snakes,reminds me of an old “Three Dog Night” song “Don’t make promised that you can’t keep”.
R. Newman)
Seems the songs we’re singing
All about tomorrow,
Tunes of promises that you can’t keep.
Every moment bringing
Love I can only borrow,
Telling me lies in your sleep.
Do you think I’m not aware
Of what you’re saying
Or why you’re saying it?
Is it hard to keep me where
You want me staying? No.
Don’t go on betraying.
We had a chance to find it,
The time was now or never,
Promise the things that I need.
Left the things behind it,
Threw our chance away forever
Telling your lies in your sleep
Do you think I’m not aware
Of what you’re saying
Or why you’re saying it?
Is it hard to keep me where
You want me staying? No, no.
Don’t go on betraying.
Don’t make promises you can’t keep.
Don’t make promises you can’t keep.
Don’t make promises you can’t keep.
Tired of hearing ‘em.
Tired of hearing ‘em.
Every time I look back over the last 27 years with S woman ,she made whole slew of plans for us and NONE and I mean, NONE of them ever materialized. I hate her for that. Dragging me into her web of lies and deceit. Getting my hopes up. Knowing herself that she never meant anything she promised. I know that has to be the same for most of you. So Don’t fall for their lies again! remember this anger you feel because you need it to get past THEM!
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 10:28am
jelltogether says:
Thanks everyone for all your helpful postings. I am still reeling from all this stuff and still feeling a little hopeless to be honest. I know that everyone told me, get away from this guy, and now I just feel like why god why did I not listen. I am always a pretty good judge of character but every instinct I have, I have to honest. I ignored with him. And i can’t for the life of me figure out why. I am feeling like it’s my own fault that I got this “gift” from him because I ignored my own feelings to ask him to use protection. His ex tells me that she never got anything from him so this can’t be something he’s had before. The spath told me the last time I reminded him that he has this, that it’s bulls**t because he has never had an outbreak. But I remember how there were times he was reluctant to have sex and that was not like him. He said he wasn’t in the mood and he was depressed.
I am feeling so depressed that I let this happen to me. The funny part is I am an incredibly faithful woman to the man in my life. I would never cheat. He has done nothing but. I intellectually know that I shouldn’t feel that I am bad but there is an emotional part that says, it’s your own fault you ended up with this, you shouldn’t have let him come back into your life, you shouldn’t have slept with him you shouldn’t, you shouldn’t you shouldn’t. But you did and now you have what you have. How do you stop beating yourself up and forgive yourself?
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 10:53am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Renewedhope: there is a ’seduction exercise’ in the Betrayal Bond, where you list all the lies and all the outcomes. I just started doing it last night. Hope your copy gets there soon – you are so doing it!
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 11:54am
kindheart48 says:
Jell , reading your posts i’ve been there beating myself up with a stick over spilled milk. I like you had no business sleeping with this loser 7 years ago but i was drinking and extremely vulnerable coming out of a long term marriage. I look back at that time and can see the damaged woman i was before even accumulating the damage from him. As time goes by and it takes alot of time im not going to lie to you, i quit drinking but i was addicted to him for years. It’s just been over the last year, after losing my dad, getting involved helping a married detective with his s and life goes on and i never thought i’d get to the place where i was sick and tired of trying with this loser and yes like you i think you wasted the best years of your life but i can’t go back and neither ca n you. Im dreading him calling as he will eventually, when it’s convenient for him and he has nobody else and i am lightyears out of his legue, not in a bragging way it is just a fact and you know i was thinking of how all along people in droves were telling me this. On some level i think it made me feel better than him but the contact brought me down to his level. They actually told me that in rehab over 6 years ago , they said he will never come up to our level, he will bring you down to his but i wasn’t ready to hear it then. I like you woke up this morning thinking about the s and the detective i was helping and mumbled to my self ” you stupid stupid girl” but then i laugh thinking it’s done, over, i was looney tunes without the tunes for a time and im sure you are like me probably above average intelligence as mine was tested in trauma program so it has nothing to do with intelligence. They are master manipulators and that is their only means of communication, if we communicated like them with our intelligence we could make them look like novices but we don’t operate that way and thank God. Im grateful mine was impotent for the last 6 years as he can perform when he picks up trashy women where he preys so i could have been at risk for sure. My gf and i were having this discussion on why alot of men we know seem to go for the trashy women and i googled it like i google silly things and it’s simple. Trashy men like trash women and i don’t want to be trashy anymore. I was married to a very decent man at one time, beat myself over that for years too and where did it get me , going back to the s to get more punishment. My ex wouldn’t have wanted me with this loser and i know if alot of my family were alive my mom, my grandmother they would have kicked me in the arse and i would have deserved it. They make you need their approval above all else or anyone else, i’ve seen it with the detective. Much easier to see in someone else and it’s nauseating that a decent human being is accepting such treatment and he’s resigned as he put it to this is his lot. Well we know better now, and im might be sick of being alone but im not going to settle ever again. We have to let go of the past or we are feeding them more, but i too get into fantasy of revenge but i know they never pay so the best revenge is what i’ve read here for years, total and complete “not interested in your crap” .. Im waiting for him to call as i’ve never reacted that way but i know it’s the only thing their teeney egos can’t take. love kindheart
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:05pm
Renewedhope says:
Will get it asap! Thanks!
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 12:05pm
jelltogether says:
Kindheart: Thanks. And you are right, i am pretty successful in the rest of my life and of course, that is probably a huge part of his attraction to me. I am so shaky because his family is now blaming me because they say I “ruined’ his relationship with his son because his son told me that he was cheating on me. He did it because he said he was so tired of seeing his father hurt me. The spath’s sister said that I was a sick person and that his family hates me for ruining his son’s relationship with his father. That’s comical when I think about it since his dad left his mother many times and cheated on her too. His ex said today i did her the biggest favor because he left her because he fell “in Love” with me. He had told me that they were getting a divorce which wasn’t true but by the time I knew that I was already in love with him.The spath even bragged to his son that this new woman he is with said he didn’t have to work if didn’t want to (I wonder?) cause she would take care of him. I am waiting for the furious call from him now to tell me to never talk to his family again. He doesn’t have to worry. And you are so right, I did bring myself down to his level. I hung around with this low life’s friends, people that I would never even have talked to at any other time. I had people tell me all the time that they couldn’t understand why I was with him. My family hated him. I kept telling myself that they didn’t know the sweet man he showed me. But if I was really honest with myself, he was never there for me. Even when my father died, whom he professed to like so much, he did’t even call me to console me. Hell, his own family told me I should get rid of him because he will never change. Now they tell me that I should never have talked to his son, who is a grown man by the way and capable of making his own decisions. I feel guilty that his son was put in that position.
What I am trying to deal with now is the huge void that is left in my life because all his drama filled up so much of it that I didn’t have time when I was not at work to think about anything else. I would hurry home to await his calls when he isn’t here and when he was living here, I hurried home to babysit him because he had no friends or hobbies. I lived for his calls- I would wake him in the morning, call him to say goodnight. Now there is silence. I have tried all weekend to stay busy but there is no one to talk to because I have hidden my relationship with him. I couldn’t explain to my friends anymore why he was always leaving.
There have been moments when I am scared, moments when I feel intense relief that all the pain will be over and moments where I long to hear his voice and it will be just a bad dream. I hate that glimmer of hope deep in my heart, that it isn’t true that he slept with this new woman. And then I crash and realize that he can just turn a page so easily, it won’t mean a thing to him that he hurt me so much. I will be the woman who was crazy, I will have “hurt him so much” and then he will marry this woman and use all the money that she has. I feel so sick because I am still in heavy withdrawal and I feel so incredibly alone. If I couldn’t come here, I think I would be a having a nervous breakdown.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 9:15pm
glinderella says:
I keep thinking about what is and isn’t being said here…are you aware of something called “The Gaslight Effect?” There is a great book with such a title…there are as many strategies and game moves and manipulations in the n/s/p’s arsenal as there are stars in the sky…how crazymaking it is to know that the person who is sadistically undermining you and bullying and manipulating you is also usurping your own belief in your own grip on reality….talk about a double bind…I know this is the second book I have mentioned…but it helps to get as many of the puzzle pieces as you can…know thine enemy…I also went on facebook to see a recent pic of my ex-best friend/ex-sister in law….she has DEAD eyes and it gives me the creeps to see the same look in her eyes I saw in pics of her with my brother…like the look of a self-satisfied spider happy to have yet another clueless fly in her web…this person has gone far in life by being a master flatterer and cold calculating manipulator…it turns one’s blood cold to see such a lifeless and evil and empty stare in one who once turned your life upside down…I tried to warn my brother and after she emptied his energy, love and pockets…she moved on and is with someone new…sad for my brother he still has her on a pedestal…I hate him as well for his stupidity and the stockholm syndrome that allows him not to see how destructive she was and how by proxy he joined her in perpetrating on his own sister…I never saw this side of him…his pride won’t allow him to admit he was played for a fool as I was. He would rather blame me for being hurt by their codependent attack on my very being…masters at gaslighting they were and are…one of many dead bodies to be sure that n/s/p’s leave behind by not only targeting others, but gaslighting some into joining in on the fun and the false sense of self and superiority that accompanies their own special brand of pleasure!
Ouch! They say that the truth shall set you free…and I agree with that…but it hurts like hell!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 7:16am
kindheart48 says:
Jell, last year at this time i was just out of a two month trauma program 3 hours away from home (Ontario) just to keep myself from contacting him and the contact was broken while iwas home on a weekend pass, yea he called to offer to shovel my driveway wouldn’t take no for an answe r and now looking back i see how his other g/ f couldn’t possibly make it into town so i was convenient and he didn’t want to lose his source. My point is i was fighting the compulsion for one year of drinking and then it got worse in sobriety for the last 6 years, as i was told in Homewood(treatment facility) by a brilliant doc that in his experience (recovering alkie with years of sobriety) that secondary addictions become stronger. And exactly like you now that im not working when the detective started to show up with his sob stories i lived for his company, someone to eat with, cruise in car with, just someone to fill the void but i was playing with fire and i knew there was the possiblity he would go back to sn/n wife and sure enough , i could see he was more traumatized than i and at least i get it . How on earth could i possibly compete with a disordered wife of 23 years who has taken over him completely. He knew i was the total opposite of her but he still went back and even with all my knowledge and beleive me this site has been my salvation as well, i still sit here and think why would he want to settle for the little crumbs she gives him but that’s where he is. As for you ex’s family, well they have a saying in AA that applies to the ism’s and socio’s have all the isms , saying goes ” the whole family is sick as well” so don’t take their comments to personally if you can. I had two phone calls from the s’s crack addicted daughter this weekend and im to the point where i don’t even want to bother with her and that’s an improvement. I spent years trying to help her, feeling sorry as i knew what her dad had done to her but i’ve come to conclusion finally , i didn’t do it to her , he did so he can deal with it. My empathy for absolutely everyone is going to be more selective from now on and it’s so high time. And glinderella reading your post reminded me of the s and that snide little smirk he’d get on his face with someone elses misfortune, should have smacked it right off his pasty white face . I was also diagnosed with Stockholme and disassociation and i never knew how prevelent it was , i thought it would only apply to say bank robberies etc. If there is one peice of advice i wish i would have take n it’s the old “you can’t not know what you know” and that means staying in the truth and that has been so hard for me and everyone else here. After the contact when in traum prog i went back and was pulling nurses aside,just beside myself thinking this whole program wasn’t working saying “why can’t i see him the way i should and know he is” bingo Stockholm . Then the nexk morning i said to head doctore ” im in conscious denial” and he said NO YOU AREN’T. Went right over my head . What a convenient excuse on my part eh. Now i see the truth i wasn’t in denial , i wanted to be there. Hope this helps . love kindheart
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 11:08am
kindheart48 says:
Jell, i’ve been in that paind so many times thinking i was one step from the mental ward here in the town i live. And yes it happened over and over with many bottom barrel women, as my one gf said i would go and see one in his garage and not beleive it like going to the scene of the accident over and over. They don’t care how they hurt anyone or not enough to change anyway and now im finally knock on wood getting it. The only thing these vermons deserve is complete and utter ignoring. It’s the only thing that gets to them and i’ve read it for so many years but just couldn’t seem to do it and mean it. Im finally at the point where i was always hoping to get, getting to the indifference, i don’t hate anyone and don’t intend to . They say the opposite of love is indifference so i take that over hate, as hate they love as well. It’s so important for me to be kind, polite , nice all the things they KNOW matter to us not them so they know we are sooooooooooooooooooooovulnerable . I know the loser will eventually call and i never thought i’d say it but i hope the moron doesn’t. I talked to 3 of his ex’s , two of which he married, all wouldn not even attend his funeral if he died to day so that tells something. Nothing redeeming at all for them in their relationships with him. One said i don’t hate him, i just don’t care. Lucky her eh. In his mind he makes up stories as to how wonderful he was to them, maybe just a little hard on them. yea right. Their introspection is bullshit, and they leave a path of destruction and will continue. kh
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 11:22am
jelltogether says:
I never thought about the Stockholm syndrome to be honest but it kind of makes sense. He had complete control of my emotions and at this point, still has some. Every time I got to the point that I was breaking away and living fine without him, he would call and bring me back in. I am have to remain strong but I barely made it through today as I found out that I will have to pay one last bill of his to the tune of $140 and I am so cash strapped that I am really scared of where I will find the money. I realize that I became addicted to all his drama and that I have to remember the 12 steps. I am on step 1–admit that my life is out of control. I have surrender to a power higher than myself to get through this or I will drown if i don’t. There are evil people in this world who aren’t necessarily in prison or shot you with bullets, they kill you in another way that is subtle and just as dangerous.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 8:08pm
kindheart48 says:
yes Jell, i used to go to meetings not so much to fight the alcohol but to fight the urge to contact the s and i’d leave a meeting and be compelled to go righ t to his house. I was so as they say powerless, more so over him then the alcohol. Even tonight i sit and think the loser hasn’t even tried to contact me and then again i think , be dam grateful, but it’s the ego thing. Stupid thinking, or as they say stinking thinking. Truth is he never did care so why would he now. Dam it’s so frustrating eh. And yes i beleive they kill you little by little, i used to get downright scared shittl### over what i would be doing to myself physically and as one member of AA told me ” it’ was all self inflicted. We are powerless over them only when we have contact just like with the substance. It does get easier with the no contact but i kept going back like you and would sabatage any progress, it would be like an awakening and i’d have moments of exhiliration and then like you’d he’d contact me and i’d be back to scrapping the bottom again. Not worth it. kh
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 11:22pm
jelltogether says:
kindheart,
The funny thing is about meetings, I was going faithfully to Al Anon because I thought that that was the big part of the Spath’’s problem. I got so much out of it because these people knew all about chaos and shame. But honestly, I knew there was a part of me that was the addict–I would always answer his calls or run to him when he wanted to see me. There is still a part of me that wants to know if he changed his phone number. There is a greater part of me that realizes that he is poison and I need to get it out of my system. Today was a step forward because I realized that every time he has done this, it just shows more and more people who he really is. When i get upset about him being with another woman, I try to focus on the facts–that he really can be a chameleon in his feelings, that his tears are manipulations, that he uses people to get what he wants, that he is weak and the reason he has no male friends, other than drinking buddies, is because they know he is a jerk, that any woman who is with him for any length of time will be hurt either physically or emotionally. He will spread his gift to the other woman, use her money and then find someone else as soon as she presses him to work, pay for something or even just to make a commitment to her. He is a shadow walker– he will burn in the light of truth. my truth is that I can free myself from the constant anxiety of whether he would leave me broke, whether he was cheating, whether he loved me like he said. Our last conversation, one of the last things he said to me was “I love you” so heartfelt and then he went over to his new woman’s house. I really think that he meant it in some really weird way because he has to convince himself that he has real feelings. That doesn’t mean that these little moments of light going on have made it easier to wake up and know that I can’t talk to him again–that is really causing very real emotional pain because I don’t have anyone really calling me to fill that void. I get really emotional when I wake up in the morning and I have to talk myself out of it all day. I try to stay very busy so that I fill the void. One day at a time. I did take away gems from the meetings and will go back because where else can you get support. There are not any “I lived with a Sociopath” support groups. There are co-dependants groups but even there they don’t touch on this type of codependancy. The person with an Spath is unbelievably codependant, probably dealing with the spath’s addictions whatever they may be, your own addiction to the person and all the incredible chaos of dealing with the police or danger of police contact when they get out of control..
I had years on and years off with this man. He pursued me ardently in the first year I met him, wanted to move in with me even though I was in a bitter bitter divorce, which i though was a little disturbing but he convinced it was because he wanted to be there for me. He left me when I moved two states away to be with him after six months only to move back in with his second wife. I left that home behind, all the money that I spent renovating it and moved back to my home state. I literally had just walked into my parent’s house when the phone rang and it was him. I remember my mother practically fighting me to not give me the phone but I answered. and promised to call him. then the pressure began to move in together again. Of course I had to get the house. Things were fantastic, then you would see a subtle change, the anger at little things, the secret phone calls. Then he would take off and go live with the second wife. Repeat this pattern multiple times. He has alway come back to me. part of me thinks that is because he does love me as much as he says but the “get real’ part says I am his go to girl nothing more. That really hurts to realize that is wasn’t love, I was just a landing pad until he formulated his next plan. Somedays the pain is so intense because I realize that I had the fantasy I would get love and all I have gotten is horrible emotional abuse. I know that he will end up in jail or worse. I know that he will at some point he will try to contact me again, if only to ask about a divorce paper but I pray that I will not even notice that he called because I will be in such a good place, it will be just like having an annoying telemarketing call and i can just delete him from my life.
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Tuesday, 2 February 2010 @ 11:20pm
kindheart48 says:
Jell, in your post you have the answers and i think we all do it’s just as you said a fight against the compulsion to have the nice pretend guy we had inthe beginning, Pretend being the operative word. I was pretty down today just thinking of all the years i wasted on my s , the detective only 4 months but i often wonder wht could have been with someone else but i was sick emotionally myself and can’t change what has happened , it’ s such a vicious cycle we get into with these sorts and at times i felt like this site, even meetings were keeping the obsession alive but that wasn’t the truth, the site helped to reinforce what i already knew, just as your above post screams, you know it girl it’s just staying in the truth that is so hard for us. I read about the malignant opptomism that we have and i beleive it’s true, we want to beleive so badly that good prevails but we learn the very hard way that some people will never be good for us. I found that the s actually brought out the worst in me and i don’t need anyone who has the ability to do that to me as i want to be a good person. I’ve been thinking alot about the detective and his situation be cause it’s so similar to ours and the emotional abuse has been for over 2 decades and still with all he has told me and all that i’ve witnessed , there is still a small part of me that thinks he could be disordered as well prob, not but we almost look or appear that way if we stay with these types. He helped me to see myself in him , i had to see it with my own eyes even though i had been on this site for years i had to physically see his pain and see how disturbed he was to see how i had been affected as well and it wasn’t a pretty picture. Like you going back i remember feeling like a steam engine , i would want so badly to stay away from him but would not be able to stop myself from making contact almost just for the sake of not knowing what respose i’d get, the rejection or not rejection was so tempting. To give them all this power is where we make our mistake but then i don’t thinki we intentionally do this, it’s they unconsciously know how to take it from us. I remember the s in the very early stages saying i have a power, he didn’t really want to divulge as he said i’d prob laugh so i proded and he said “i have a power, i always have” and you know i stopped laughing when it came to be true. But i always held the key to the power but i just couldn’t seem to be able to let it go. Letting go of anything has always been a huge struggle for me, like a dog with a bone i think we are fighters at heart and that keeps us tangled in their web, our strengths get used against us. love kindheart
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Tuesday, 2 February 2010 @ 11:50pm
imfree says:
Forgiving the Psycho that comes into your life to screw you
thats a hard one.I believe that for our own healing process
we have to acknowledge the psycho experience, thank your lucky stars that you are here sharing, and let go of the memory, and the psycho.
Forgive yourself these psychos are sick people that come into your life to mess it up, they lie and cheat and steal from you, and they only care about themselves, once you get bit by one of these , you’ve got to stand up, and get them out of your life.
I think it’s very hard to forgive a person that comes into your life, and turns it upside down without any guilt or remorse, just
for the hell of it.
But once you figure them out, and confront them, and get them out of your life, and you run, time will ease the pain
and the most important thing is to let go.
I prayed and asked God to make me willing to forgive this
psycho, just so that I could feel better with me, and I can say that each passing day it gets better, at least I am free
psycho free
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 12:15am
jelltogether says:
kindheart, you hit so many points for me. You are right when you say that after years of being with an spath that you become a very damaged person. I became so entwined that I was unable to see reality when I looked at him. I would lie to friends and family to cover up for him. I wouldn’t admit that he wasn’t working, that he had an arrest record, that he doesn’t have a drivers license. I became someone I didn’t know, someone I didn’t really like. And like you, I have a hard time letting go of people in my life- never before to this extent though. The temptation is there to see if his phone number still works but then I think really, what will that accomplish–so he can yell at me that I ruined his life, that I am a horrible person who he never wants to talk to again. I would have have to be crazy to put myself through that right? By the thought remains and that is why I know I am going to constantly have to remain viligant to remain NC. You know my spath used to tell me that I was such a strong person but on the other hand he loved it when I was hysterical over his cheating. He would laugh that I was so upset. I am sure he loves that he “got over on me” and was cheating and telling me at the same time that he loved me and was planning our move in together again. I think that he loves having two women who he sees as vying for him. It makes him feel like a man because he really isn’t one. I will never forget my deceased father telling me that he wasn’t a man. Daddy knew best and Dad was a real man.
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:51pm
kindheart48 says:
jell, my n/p would tak e attention from a harem of bottom of the barrel women just because he is an attention whore. Everything and everyone is game to these types, no particular preference whomever is vulnerable to his bullshit. Im laughing thinking of one of his favorite lines he’s say you know ‘ you’r almost perfect” gee never could get it right could i. Once i remember taking a girlfriend to a wedding with me and stopping by his home and i have a beautiful black dress, thought i looke d pretty dam hot just to get his stupid approval and all he coul d find wron with me was ” your legs are too white” and i even let that bother me. Last night i don’t know if it was the ativan i took to sleep or what but i laid in bed for quite some time imagining me getting him over here and sitting him down using the see who has the most balls tactic as i know what a coward he is and i thought of more horrible things he had done to so many wives , his children , just so many terrible things i knew about him that not even he knows and i wante dto let him have it with both barrels but then in the morning i thankfully came to my senses and realized he’d probably enjoy it and it wouldnt have any real impact on him as terrible as the things he did were. Guess i haven’t quite worked through all the anger yet . I have so many fantasys of how i’d like him to pay and i think it’s pretty normal it’s just not acting on them that is the secret. And you are right they are not real men and i remember thinking that so many times , what the hell happened to real men anyway. Your dad knew th e difference . We should all be listening to the song “Rea l Love” by Mary j. blige and realizing we never ever had a real love. take care kh
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 11:38pm
jelltogether says:
Haha–you made me laugh with the white legs comment. I knew when he would be getting antsy or wanting someone different because he would start making some negative comment about me. In fact, the last day I talked to him, he said that he would send me money so I could go tanning because I was so white (I can’t help that I live in the north with three months of summer-lol). Seriously though he would start saying really hurtful things to me, deliberately trying to tear me down. Sometimes I could ignore them but it made me wonder if another man would feel the same about me. It was definitely a way to make me feel insecure about myself and it worked a LOT. When he would leave, I was afraid to date, afraid that I was not attractive, too fat, too clingy, too many emotional problems, too everything according to him. Then of course when he was wooing me back in, I was the greatest person in the world. He would tell me it was his problem, I never really disagreed with him, mind you, but the damage had been done.
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 8:34pm
geminigirl says:
Jell, Kindheart, ImFree,
I think in many ways it is just as hard , if not harder to forgive if its your spath daughter who has been screwing you emotionally and financially for years and years.Until I found LF last June, i hadnt a clue, re mirroring, projection, “gaslighting”,{I had years and years of this, an really had started to believe my spath daughters when they said,”Its you, Mum, your the crazy one, your the drama queen”,etc. etc}.Poor newLily went to her grave hoping against malignant hope that her adult kids would change, love her, and come to see her. Didnt happen, until she was dead,-too late then!
My problem now is what to do with all this suppressed anger that Ive tamped down for almost 30 years!I think its healthy that I now feel anger,but its taking me a while to process it, and to realise there will NEVER EVER be any closure, as they will never ever apologise to me. Even if they did, it would mean NOTHING, except a way to screw me some more.
My only closure is to stay NC for ever, and its very hard to do this with your own daughters, even if they are grown up and have turned into horrible people.Love, Gem.XX
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Thursday, 4 February 2010 @ 10:46pm
jelltogether says:
Gem,
It has to be so rough when it is your own flesh and blood. There is no getting out of the way with that. I feel for you. Keep on believing that you are going to be ok. I am sending good vibes your way.
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 8:04pm
robxsykobabe says:
Today, as I woke up from a nap, I am stuck with an ill feeling in my stomache.
My dream was of ‘him’…someone I haven’t dreampt about for AT LEAST 3 months. The dream took place in my bedroom with a conversation being held between his brother in law and myself where I was ’spilling the beans’ about all the shit that no one knew about. My ex was in the room with us, although he didnt’ try to stop me from telling everything that went on…he was just kinda irritated. I sensed his irritation and also sensed his brother in laws irritation as he seemed to not want to know all I was telling. His brother in laws response was this…very matter of factly…’you two didnt have a relationship, you just were REALLY good friends.’
This has been unsettling to me as my ex told me over and over again how I was his ‘best friend’ or ‘the best friend he has ever had.” I think about that and what comes to mind is this…HELL YEAH I was the best friend he ever had! I was THE ONLY friend he had while we dated for 3.5 years. It occured to me that the reason he had no friends was because he USED them all and discarded them too! Any ‘friends’ he spoke of were either drug buddies of his ‘past’ or his ONLY friend he grew up with…who my ex slept with his girlfriend, causing the relationship to end…
I have thought and thought tonight about all the shit he did…and how he gave me SO many hints as to what he was doing! Our last little get away, as he was in a drunken stupor, he said to me ‘you know, Ive pulled alot of shit on you…ALOT of shit, but Ive NEVER loved someone like I love you…NEVER!”
I have NOT forgiven him for all he’s done…mostly for the emotional and psychological damage he’s created. I can look at the material things he took from my house and chalk them up as him being an ass. I can look at the tantrums and chalk them up to him being very immature. I can even look at some of the blatantly STUPID things he did…like ask me to buy him a motorcycle…and chalk them up to his real stupidity.
Somehow though, at this time, Im not willing to forgive or forget the BLATANT lies he told me…even though I can logically say HE has a problem that has NOTHING to do with me. I wont excuse his ‘problem’ away like that because he has damaged ME…and Im worth more than that.
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Sunday, 7 February 2010 @ 8:50pm
geminigirl says:
Hi, jell, Thanks so much for your encouraging words. Actually, the longer Im in total NC with my spath daughter, the easier its getting.Whats happening though is that old memories of dreadful, hurtful things that she and her spath sister have done to me,{mostly before I met my present husband,} are surfacing, and its like wave after wave of acute pain, dread,and anguish I have to go thru. Then just when I think that the worst memory is over, another one surfaces. I think its Gods way of getting me to deal with, process, and move on, but its exhausting and draining andupsetting. I seem to veer from rage, anger, and guilt for feeling this way about my flesh and blood, from having feelings of lovefor them{not much by now, I have to say I think theyve killed most of my love for them stone dead. Then round and round I go again, trying vainly to find SOME good in them, crying for their wasted sick lives, for the dear little girls they were. I know these litle girls are DEAD and gone, and wont be coming back, ever.Is all this normal? And whats normal? And thereis a hidden part of me ,deep inside, that wants to survive without these horrible people theyve become, and wants them to PAY and SUFFER for all they have put me thru in pure anguish!!.I hope Im making progress, but its one step forward
5 steps back! Love, gem,XX
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 2:54am
jelltogether says:
Today was a really rough day. Got a voicemail from the spath. He found out that I know about the other woman, that I had turned off the electric account for his apartment.(I will have to eat that bill) and of course, it tried to turn it all on me. I am “full of bullshit”, he isn’t doing anything and people always talk about him, etc, etc, etc. The funny part is that he doesn’t even realize that his very behavior is what incriminates him. He wants me to take the blame for what he is doing wrong. I realize this but it still hurts. I know by now though that this is his way of deflecting his own guilt over what he has done. It is always someone else’s fault for him because then he doesn’t have to look at his behaviour. I don’t take it on like I used to, I actually would think that I had done something wrong. Now I know that there is something wrong with him. He has no real heart or soul.
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 8:25pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
sociopathic traits list? someone posted a list in the last few days , i think it was from, women who love sociopaths. anybody know which thread it is on??
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Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 8:57pm
robxsykobabe says:
EB:
I read some of what you posted about the things you ‘know’ about him and ‘what he will tell you’ and I loved it…Im gonna do my own inventory…
I know that he has such shitty credit, that he cant even finance a car…
I know that he has a child he’s never seen because he was just screwing his childs mother and got her pregnant…
I know he’s 20 thousand dollars in debit over childsupport he’s never paid…
I know he still lives with his parents because he cant afford even an apartment…
I know all the stylish clothes he ownes are from me…
I know he was the ‘burnout loser’ in highschool…
I know he is very insecure…
I know he went away and his son resents him for that…
I know he is an addict…
I know he has NO friends…
I know he throws tantrums like an 8 year old…
I know he manipulates and uses everyone he knows…
What he will tel you…
Is that his credit is ’screwed up’ because of a time long long ago when he and his ex girlfriend lived together and the bills were in his name but SHE didnt pay them…
Is that his child he’s never seen has been unseen because her mother REFUSES to allow her daughter any contact…and its better this way because his daughter has a dad already…
Is that the child support he is backed up on isnt his fault because he TRIED to pay it, but the mother didnt want any money from him…and he knew NOTHING about how much he owed…
Is that he lives at his parents (at 36) STILL because he is ’saving up money’ to buy a house…when really, he cant afford to rent anything by himself, let alone have to live BY HIMSELF…
Is that he likes to ‘keep up with the trends”…bullshit…
Is that he was ‘friends with everyone”…except he ONLY hung out with the burnout losers…because they ‘didnt expect anything from me’…
Is that he’s very confident…and people mistake it for cockiness…
Is that he and his son have a WONDERFUL relationship…except his son talked to me about things before his dad…
Is that he HAD a problem with cocaine at one time, but he doesn’t anymore…now, mushrooms, thats a differnet story…
Is that he had to separate himself from his ‘friends’ because they were no good for him…but the people he associates with now are THE SAME TYPE OF PEOPLE…just alot younger…
Is that he gets his ‘feelings hurt’ and ‘disappointed’ and ’sometimes doesnt know how to react’ to these things…
Is he fights very hard every day to keep the ‘good person’ in the front and not allow the ‘bad person’ to surface…
I hate him…I really do.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 8 February 2010 @ 11:09pm
ErinBrock says:
I don’t remember that particular posts…scary that I’ve posted so much!!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 12:17am
luv716 says:
Its been a while since I comment but I’ve been reading posting everyday. Its been a year since i met the s and there is still so much hurt in my heart. The s called me saturday an told me that he hasn’t done anything to me and that i shouldnt be mad at him, its unbelievable that this person can really think that he hasnt done me wrong! I’m so hurt by what this person has done to me it seem like the hurt will never go away. This person took everything he could from me lied and con me out of me an my children money, ask me too marry him with another woman ring to get 8000 dollars from me, used my atm and withdrawn thousands of dollars this is just the half of what he did not to mention the woman I caught in his bed that he said was his daughter. Please tell me how I will ever get over this hurt. I answer the phone not in hopes that he was coming back to me but to just hear what lies he had to say it was like pour salt on open wounds. I know he’s back with his ex-wife, that was his plans while he was using me, The hurt is that it was all a game, I honestly did love him.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 9:39am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Luv716 – i honestly did love mine, too. it makes no difference.
focus on yourself and your children.
reading the betrayal bond and doing the exercises in it is helping me to sort things out. and so is posting and reading here and other places.
it’s hard to truly understand how their brains work – i am sure that if we saw inside them it would sever the attachments we carry. you don’t need more salt girl – you need to rise up and care for yourself and your kids. Say ‘NO’ to letting him suck you down any longer. You have to break the spell of believing you are not worthy. You have your life in front of you, lift your head and start walking toward it
I don’t know your circumstances – if you have your basic needs like housing and food met or if you have support around you. if you have a counselor or other professional you are talking to. start working on the things you need to do to make your life better.
he doesn’t matter anymore. he will not be part of your creating a good and meaningful life. give yourself the gift of staying away from him, it will help you to break the spell and the hurt.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:08am
luv716 says:
You just like me we all has been through break-ups in the past I can’t grasp why this one is so difficult. Is it because they used u in the process or what? The thoughts are always on your mind from what he done to me always! Its like tv-o burnt in my brain I can rewind it, its so vivid like it was yesterday. I just want to forget this hell i was in
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 10:23am
one_step_at_a_time says:
luv-it’s not a normal ‘break up’, as it wasn’t a ‘normal’ relationship.
the constant replay is a form of compulsion that keeps us trapped in a very high anxiety state, and it also comes from that very high anxiety state. it is a continuous loop, and you are going to have to take positive action to break it.
have you read anything here about PTSD? that might be useful to help you understand what you are experiencing right now. also, the exercises in the book, the betrayal bond, can help to break the loop. It IS POSSIBLE, to break it and you are the one who has to do it. having contact with him is also keeping you in the loop. as long as you are in contact with him, you are still actually in the hell.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:01am
robxsykobabe says:
PLEASE…someone remind me again, today…
WHY NO CONTACT…
I know why no contact but need a little boost….Im not wanting to call him, I am having anxiety about Valentines Day–he loved that day. Also, I wanted to get tickets to STOMP, and realized…HE was the one I would do things like that with…
Just need some support…
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 2:59pm
ErinBrock says:
Babe….
No contact is because you VALUE yourself, your life and your world!
No contact is because you KNOW what pain will come from him being in your life on ANY level!…..Youv’e been there done that….and tell me WHY you think it could be different…..
Oh, yeah….he’s changed…..
Ummmmmm…..NOT!!!!
Babe…..you can be MY valentine…..how about that!
Valentines day is not for people involved in fantasy….go get those stomp tix…..I saw it and it’s a great show…..you’ll love it.
Let me ask YOU this…..did you ever take a shower with the S?
Okay….i’m sure you may have once or twice…..SO….does that mean, since it was something you had done together……that you will never shower again?????
NO……(slap upside the head….)!!!!!
You drove together in a car….do you walk everywhere now….because of the thoughts of him? NO
You dined out….so do you not go into a restaurant anymore?
NO…….
So, regain your control….and rethink your thoughts…..
Your life is YOUR life……LIVE IT…and do what YOU want…
Stop romantisizing things…..get yourself some chocolates and stomp tix and go and have a WONDERFUL time….FOR YOU!!!!!
(and get in that shower!!!)
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:11pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hey wonderful robxsykobabe!
You go to see stomp and love every minute of the sweet taste of freedom. taste it deep!
please do the loving things you would like to do for another FOR YOURSELF.
Happy Valentine’s to the BEST, most loving and caring person who you can count on in your life: YOU!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:11pm
learnthelesson says:
No Contact because you deserve better for yourself.
Why did you choose no contact to begin with?
What else besides remembering he loved a certain day and that you would get tickets for you to do things with him…. what else do you remember BAD about him…
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:19pm
learnthelesson says:
ps. robxsy -
Excellent job reaching out for support instead of caving in. Thats a huge sign for you that you really want to stay no contact – but are just struggling with ALL of the NORMAL side effects of going NO CONTACT!! Try to remember the alternative — all the bad stuff about him, the bad treatment, and being in NO BETTER OF A PLACE BY MAKING CONTACT – its just a superficial fix to the mind…does absolutely nothing for your heart and soul…
NO CONTACT heals the heart and soul — the longer you go — and make it over that hump — the better you will be and feel. So proud of you for turning to LF for support! I hope we all follow your lead with that and through the toughest part of the process of NC!!!
GO TO STOMP – I want to hear all about it — anyone else you could invite if you would like some company??
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 3:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear babe,
NO CONTACT is YOUIN CONTROL, if you contact him or let him contact you, you are giving HIM CONTROL.
NC makes YOU STRONG. NC keeps him from re-hurting you!
And, BTW, NC gets EASIER as you go along, believe me it does.
At first it is so hard because you want to TELL THEM OFF, you want to know what they are doing, you want …….
But in the end, NC is where it is at for YOU. It protect YOU.
and also GOOD FOR YOU, TOWANDA! for coming here and not contacting! GOOD JOB!!!! ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:07pm
kindheart48 says:
hi guys, i’ve been off for a bit got a little obsessed with Facebook but the novelty is wearing off. I was thinking alot to day about the sociopath and the bad adreniline feeling i get with any contact, not a good adreniline i get from say exercising trying to figure out where all this comes from in me and the desire to get such approval. I know this sounds so simple but it came to me that im always feeling as though im making a pact with the devil. wondering if that is how others feel. Im also keeping an eye on the news in Canada as a very high ranking Colonel has been aprehended for at least 2 sexually related murders and they interviewed the author of Human Hunters i beleive is the name of book, or something similar and he seemed quite astonished that this guy didn’t fit the profile at all except in the manner of arrogance b y leaving one of the bodies on base. Thank God for good policing and i’ts really got me questioning not to mention the military who screen for this type of thing. Should be interesting to hear what his double life has been like as he’s married, she being one of the heads of The Heart and Stroke Foundation in Canada. Dam scary to think he could rise to such a rank and no red flags geez and my son is in training at this moment as a Commissioned Officer and i can honestly say he has more integrity than any man i’ve ever met. There seems to be such a dissonance with people either cold hearted or too emotional at least from where im seeing things. The world sure is a scary place the older i get and im questioning so much lately. love kindheart
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 6:21pm
robxsykobabe says:
Awe, all my new found LF friends!
This is EXACTLY what I need…exactly. You see, when I get stronger I will be able to tell some of you what you have told me…things that we all already know, but need it reinforced…time and time and time and time again…
I appreciate the encouragement more than you know…
I wonder, does he UNDERSTAND that Im not running away from him as a coward? Does he know and see that what was going on was NOT normal and THIS was the extreme I had to go to in order to GET OUT (I hope that doesnt sound like Im feeling sorry for him, cause Im not)! Or, maybe, is he really so stupid (for lack of better words) that he thinks IVE done something…and dont want to have to ‘face’ him…
What an ass
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:31pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsykobabe – i’ll take a liberty here, ’cause it’s you, and be really str8t about whether he understands why you left………….
IT DOESN’T F*CKING MATTER!!!
you’re right. what an ass.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:43pm
robxsykobabe says:
I was just thinking about something else…the way I started the NC!!
You know, he lied to me while looking me straight in the eyes…and I didnt want NC…
He manipulated my kind heart and caring spirit…and I didnt want NC…
He tried splitting my family against me…and I didnt want NC…
He used me for sex, a place to stay, ‘normalcy’, and anythign else I had that he didnt…andn I didnt want NC…
BUT…after stealing a STUPID BOOK from me…THEN? I decided I HAD IT? Over a book????
I guess that was the lowest of the low…it was so trivial and ridiculus I saw to just what level he was willing to go to…and lie again to my face about it…
Have I said he’s an ass? He’s an ass
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:46pm
robxsykobabe says:
One Step…
OKey..dokey…..THAT puts it into perspective! Ahhhhhhhhh ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:53pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
heheheeeeheeeee!
ahh, the page that broke the camel’s back!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:54pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
kindheart48,
I posted this link yesterday:
http://www.thestar.com/news/on.....de-charges
And for those of us who do not know, Trenton is a small Canadian town (north of Rochester, NY), where the military is the only game in town, so everyone will be rocked by this.
The Dept/ of National Defense have said that they will investigate murders in the other cities/ towns where The Commander has been posted. The authorities obviously have a great deal of interest in him or this piece of information wouldn’t have broken as quickly as it has, given that the information about his arrest has only been in the news for a day or so.
It will be interesting to see what information shakes out about the Commander over the coming weeks. I suspect they will find a trail of destruction behind him. That his wife is a high level ‘helper’, aka non profit director, is no surprise to any of us here.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 8:55pm
learnthelesson says:
One step at a time – LOL’s …
Aerobics (sorry i just forget exactly how you spell it and too tired to scroll up:) – Im so glad you thought about why you originally went NC – and on top of that you remembered all the other CRAP he pulled on you — and “hung around” because you let him until you finally kicked his fraudulent a@@ to the curb! Hes a loser – we dont stay in contact with Losers anymore!!
He treated you way less than you deserve!! Keep on keepin on! Focus on the possibilities ahead !
good for you!!!
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:16pm
kindheart48 says:
One Step, like you im interested in the wife as well and it’s sickened me to think of all the people who looked up to this creep and what it is going to do to the moral , one really bad egg can ruin alot . I just hope they learn from this experience , unfortunately it’s too late for at least two of the women , makes me question why some got out alive. I agree with you that they will find a trail as well, i am a little puzzled as to why they don’t think he would fit the profile of a predator but then again different types of predators which brings me to the detective , he certainly had his knowledge as that was his area of expertise, im sure they looked pretty up the DSM compared to his n/s wife. What a world im starting to see. kh
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:17pm
kindheart48 says:
Oh and One Step i read that along with his degree in Political Science, he had a Master In Defence studies, bet that came in handy. Was reading up a bit o n the women , kind, sweet, it’s a dam travesty and an embarrassment to Canadians.
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Tuesday, 9 February 2010 @ 11:24pm
Rosie says:
What Aloha said further up reflects exactly how I think/used to think.
Before the “bad man” I was people-pleasing and naive, blown aorund by the winds of others desires.
Now I’m much more grounded and strong in my self. Selfish but not in a bad way. Looking after myself.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 3:01am
Aeylah says:
I came across the journal I was keeping for my ex SN when I was with him during his cancer surgery and post recovery. So many acts of kindness and love for him……I did this unselfishly because i believd that the cancer would be a wake up call for him and he would change. He promised …..but his “new and improved” change only lasted 3 months!
He told me I was a blessing in his life….. I was his prop for the holliday family dinners, which I cooked and hosted at his houe, I was his private designer for all the home improvements he was doing ……just for me “your Taj-Mahal” he would say….to prepare his house for me to move in (with out any commitments of course). He told me he needed me ….I was his cook, his soul mate and his “ED nurse”….I subjected myself to being used and sexually degraded under the FOG of being an act of love for him.
All the goodness lasted only 3 months… now I feel more used than ever!!!!!! All the bad behaviour and the signs strarted re-appearing, the phone calls and text messages on his phone at all hours of day and night, the misterious disapearing of the phone, the un-accountability for his time, the sudden change of plans, the lying, cheating, and finally the devaluation when he broke up with me at 4:00am in a cheezy hotel off the siede of the road on New Years eve because I was angry at him for manipulating me and pushing all my buttons the day before. We made up again, only to have him continue devaluating me….on another day he told me I was making a “big deal out of nothing” when I blew up because on the day of my birthday in January he admitted to visiting an old lover for tea and oranges while I was home alone.
I continue to be un-employeed and he would buy me groceries and help me financially occasionally but he allways reminded me that I had to “earn my keep”, that if I didn’t do this or that for him, there was allways someone else available. (he has money and is very frugal and very cheap…I had to pay for gas and the only good meal we had on a road trip) .
He used his money to manipulate me into doing things for him that I would not have if I still had my job. He sabotaged every effort I made to look for work and get my self on my feet again. He would say “why dont you just move in and wear the apron, you’ll have shelter over your head, food in your belly and clothes on your back, all you have to do is take care of me and put with me”….”oh and since you cant afford your house anymore, why dont you sign it over to me and I’ll pay off the mortgage for you, I’ll make sure you make a little too” …he wanted me to be totally dependant on him. Emotionally, financially, phisically etc. with out making any compromises or commitments to me. I saw right through the smoke and mirrors.
The final straw came when after cooking, sexing him and doing things for him, he told me he had a date for the comming Friday night with an ex-lover to “wright a wrong” and for me not to make a big deal out of it
!
Only this time I didn’t wait for him to discard me, I discarded him! told him we were finished once and for all. (after 3 1/2 years)
It’s been 2.5 weeks with NC and comming across that journal which I wrote for him to keep, makes me sad and I want to mail it to him. …..I oscilate between feeling strong and good to feeling weak and lonely. He has not tryed to contact me, yet I look for it everyday and crave it at times…wonder if he misses me……I’m crazy to think this.
Sorry about the long post, just need to vent. I can forgive myself in time but never foregive him.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 9:38am
Quantum Solace says:
Aeylah says:
I came across the journal I was keeping for my ex SN when I was with him during his cancer surgery and post recovery. So many acts of kindness and love for him……I did this unselfishly because i believd that the cancer would be a wake up call for him and he would change. He promised …..but his “new and improved” change only lasted 3 months!
——————————
Ha! You know what mine told me? That everything I had done, all my sacrificies and selfless deeds didn’t count because “he hadn’t asked me to do it” – I suppose if he had asked, then, they would have meant something… not!
When I told him that I gave him the best years of my life, he replied that “they weren’t even that good.”
Oh, man! You just can’t make this stuff up.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 9:47am
Aeylah says:
Quantum,
“Oh, man! You just can’t make this stuff up.”
Aint that the truth!!!!
worst of all is that we did give them undesrvingly probably the best years of our time.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 9:55am
Quantum Solace says:
Absolutely! If ever I wanted to become a fiction writer, all I’d have to do is retell my experiences with that monster and I’d probably have a best seller in my hands. With them, it truly is life imitating art.
I recently hired a lawyer to handle my latest ongoing quandary with the monster and, after reading the papers, he called me and said “that incident…it was so strange” – Now, keep in mind this lawyer handles criminal as well as divorce cases and he thought it was strange. I said to him, that is nothing, wait till you see the rest. Well, I haven’t talked to him since that day but he must be pulling his hair by now with all the stuff I turned over to him.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:04am
kindheart48 says:
Aeylah, i’ve been doing alot of thinking about how these types can be so hard to resist, I’ve been going through tthis nightmare for 7 years now, 6 of them sober by the grace of God and only because i didn’t live or financially depend on the s. I’ve tried meetings to stay away, hynotherapy, shrinks, therapists, Trauma program for 2 months you name it, book Betrayal Bond was probably the most helpful along with this site and still im drawn to the loser. Over the last six months i lost my father whom i really never had a relationship with not that he wasn’t ther he just didn’t acknowledge me or couldn’t , he wasn’t abusive and was so well loved but couldn’t show me so i’ve been watching the dvd of his wake, he had so many people who really idolized and adored him and they all gave him a beatiful service and i was really proud of him because he had so many people who loved him, but im finding i watch the service becasue im mourning the relationship i nver got with him , and i know this has been an issue that made me a prime target for the s. The s knows this as well, i found myself trying to get my dad’s approval for years and doing the exact same things buying the same things for the s. After my dad passed i was a complete wreck, as i had just come out of trauma program and of course had contact with the s and i was literally dwindling away to nothing, my dad’s share being left to distribute by a toxic bully who i just can’t be near. Sometimes i think why am i such a dam weaking to these sorts of people i try so hard to stand my ground but they always get the best of me and this guy has taken over my role as the Exector (farm is my grandmas long story) anyway he has bullied me, blackmailed me etc. Then aft losing my dad i got involved with listening an d helping this detective whom is by all accounts (therapist confirmed) with a n/s or at least a raging n. and he was very kind much like my ex husband whom i blame myself for losing due to my drinking and generally unhappiness, he tried very hard. Then after watching the cop and his pain i could really see myself in him and he was told he had to tell her to leave after xmas (she used the i’ll stay for xmas ) as the therapist said he couldn’t handle much more. Well next thing is she decides to sing at xmas and now he’s back in the web. Now im left thinking heres this guy just like me with all this goodness and he’s wasting away with her. So i end up back in same position the s being my fall back. I sat thinking yest as we are snowed in here, about all the conversations the detective and i had and how similar it all is, they are really boring cookie cutter people, he looking perplexed at me saying ” why would we go back” and wondering why it is that their approval should mean so much to us, this energy that they have the ability to suck from us and how unfair it is that we got snagged by them in the first place, and i did come to one conclusion that i’ve readon here for years but it hadn’t sunk in, it’s really about us as people, and not them. they will continue doing and being who they are with or without us. I guess as usual i was looking for a complicated asnwer as to why we want their approval in the first place. My s recently (after seeing a biker chick for oh over a year) sat and gave me this look like i could tell you something but i shouldn’t and i didn’t reallly prod, but he came out with the “she really isn’t my gf” and you know i know full well it’s all bullcrap, she thinks she is. I feel as though there is this little teeney part of me that wants to beleive him when he says this crap but that tiny part of me is giving up, i know he is full of crapola and i’m on to all the lies . I had an older gentleman fr the program say to me concerning the detective ” what is it with you women who want to fix men” and i’ve been thinkingon that one too. I wish i could take that detectives wife and th e sociopath and put them on an island , LOST but unfortunately they are like poison to us and not easy to dispose of. I rem the cop saying you weren’t married and didn’t have children with your s. as hs wife uses the fact that his family and children are his life. Just sucks that the good people get used like this. I’ve looked back at my journalling over the years and the anger is what stands out the most, just terrible hatred and now im at a point where i know i have to take my part of the responsibility and the anger won’t get me anywhere. I often wonder why i had to come so close to such evil that i had no idea existed and im so grateful for this site but i know i have to let go and move on which is the hardest part for me , the letting go. Im seeing my shrink tom for last time, not because i have anything pertinent , she’s going on a mat leave, just going to talk about how i need to motivate myself to look for a job and take care of me, she is well aware of how i take on others problems instead of looking after myself. Reading the above posts and the 3 months of niceness, yea they are all the same, jsut thinking though, they must get exasperated pretending to be nice, and that’s a consolation in itself. We don’t have to try to be something we are not. Fake fake fake all of them. In my fantasy i would love to send them on a boat to an island and let them eat each other up. love kindheart.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:12am
kindheart48 says:
oh guys for got tomention with the kind things i did i got the ” You try too hard” line and this is another one you have to love he’s say many times “You’re almost perfect” buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut then left it up tom y imagination. don’t you just love the lines.kh
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:19am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Aeylah, not the best years of your life. The worst years of your life. The best is yet to come.
The journal you found … it’s a chronicle of you opening your heart and turning your life into a wide-open faucet for him. You did it because you believed in him. Believed in his promise that everything was going to be different.
And then, after you did this, after you made the commitment to invest everything in this pretty dream, you started to get the payback for your wide-open emotional and physical investments. The lies. The lack of commitment. The attempts to financially exploit you. The glorification and demands for repayment for every little thing he did for you, while whatever you did for him was somehow forgotten because it happened yesterday.
He made a deal with you. He didn’t keep his side. He’s a liar and a thief.
I know how it feels to wait for him to come back, even though I was the one that ended it. As screwy and sick as the whole relationship was, it was so stressful and used so much of my energy that, when I finally got the strength and certainty to end it, it took a while to decompress. My life felt empty. Even if it was bad, I missed the excitement, the challenge of surviving it, and the occasional times that it was good.
This was because I was sick, really sick from the aftereffects of years of dealing with this crap. We don’t always think about what this does to our nervous systems, trying to keep our lives making some kind of sense when we are attached to these masters of chaos. Imagine coming back from a war zone where you’ve been dodging bullets for three and half years. How long do you think it would take to get used to, much less learn to live productively in a peaceful environment?
Being involved with them isn’t the only trauma. The shock of transitioning out of the craziness can also be hard. But the good news is that this time, you did something really, really good for yourself. And as you get through recovering from those years, you’re going to discover that you’re a smarter, stronger, more creative, more successful person in every way, than you ever knew.
When I was involved with my ex, I used to be be astonished at the way my heart was just blown open. I’ve been married three times and I’ve had a lot of love affairs in my life, but I’d never experienced anything like that. It just took me over. No matter what he did to me, no matter how logically I knew that this was a bad thing that was destroying me and my life, I couldn’t get control of it. I’d do anything for him.
At that time, I wondered if maybe it was a good thing, to discover this capacity for love in me. That maybe, after this hell was finally over (because even though he kept abandoning me and coming back, I knew he would leave me eventually), that it would mean that I would be able to love in a new way. Better, more openly, with more freedom of some kind.
Now, a few years later, I think differently. I don’t believe that it’s good for us to love someone else against our own self-interest. I believe that one of the skills of sociopaths is to seduce us and pressure us into letting down our boundaries beyond what is healthy or safe, so that they can induce us to act against our own survival. Love, real love is based on respect for each other as individuals, and the joyful recognition that our separate identities bring value to each other’s lives. We care about each other’s wellbeing, but we cannot really care about anyone else unless we are able to care about ourselves first.
That stunning open-heartedness — all that compassion, generosity, understanding, willingness to invest endlessly in his wellbeing and happiness — that so surprised me, well that wasn’t completely a mistake. It was just turned in the wrong direction. I did need to learn what that felt like. I thought I was such a great lover, but I wasn’t, because I really wasn’t very good at loving myself.
Recovering from these relationships is a great adventure. You’re going to be amazed at what you learn. It’s only been a few weeks, and you’re still decompressing from running a treadmill in the crazyhouse. That’s your problem right now. Think about what you can do for that. Give yourself some safe adventures, like a hike or learning a new recipe or changing the oil on your car. Something with boundaries and a sense of accomplishment that doesn’t leave any hooks in you. You wouldn’t stop dead from a marathon run when you crossed the finish line. You’d cool down. That’s what you need to do.
Finally, I know that you’re probably wondering what’s going on in his head. And I that I probably can’t talk you out of that right now. But the more important thing is what’s going on with with you. That’s always been the more important thing, and he just managed to convince you otherwise for a few years. Whatever you’re feeling, it’s about you, not him. He’s just a bit player in the story of your life, a character in a strange, stressful, wounding chapter.
You just started a new chapter, and this one is more about you than any chapter in your life. It will be a bit of a rollercoaster, but you’re going to love it. Getting better is the best and only revenge that matters. And you’ve already started.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 11:26am
Kathleen Hawk says:
kindheart, you are doing so well. Everytime I read one of your posts I’m blown away by how far you’ve come.
Here’s a thought. You need a few things. Just because you’re human. You need to be recognized as a valuable person. You need to have your love acknowledged. You need to feel like you belong, like you have a place in the world. You need to get back something for what you give to other people, not just give, give, give while they take, take, take. You need to be able to trust the people you deal with, and if you can’t trust them, you need to be able fix the situation or get out of it. You need to be able to tell the truth about how you feel without being afraid of being punished for it.
These are just basic needs. And when we don’t get our needs met, we become “needy.” That just means we have a backlog of unmet needs that are driving us. The bigger the backlog, the more they stress us internally and drive us toward extreme solutions (that may not actually be good for us, or may have a bad impact on other situations where we were getting other needs met).
You’re saying that your background of not being acknowledged by your father, not getting any return for your love for him, not getting any response to your efforts to be close to him, all this made you vulnerable to the sociopath. Bingo. That’s exactly right.
And you’re right, they do exactly what you said about taking advantage of those unmet needs. Looking like they’re a solution, that they’re going to make us feel better, because it’s the fastest, quickest way to make themselves our drug of choice, so they can use us.
KH, I don’t know why your father behaved like that toward you, but you deserved better. Particularly from a father, who had responsibility to support you not only financially, but emotionally too. These unmet needs are the result of neglect of the child that you were. I don’t know what was wrong with hm, but it doesn’t really matter. What does matter is the fact that so much of your life has been shaped by this emotional starvation, and what you’re going to do about it.
Yes, as your therapist said, you need to take care of yourself. But I think that maybe you also need to rebuild your relationship with yourself. Because this kind of parental neglect will leave a child (and the adult she grows into) uncertain if it was her fault or uncertain if maybe she just wasn’t worth any better treatment.
It’s important that you understand that this wasn’t ever about you. That his inadequacies as a parent wounded you, but he was the inadequate parent, not you. If you could go back and take over for him, and give you all the recognition and love and attention you needed, things would be a lot different for you. You needed a parent who was overjoyed at your existence and committed to bringing you up as a happy, confident and self-reliant child.
Believe it or not, you can actually do that for yourself now. If you can go back into that memory, and recognize that your father is not doing a great job of giving you what you need to grow up, and tell your child self that you think you can do a better job of it, that will begin to change your life.
You don’t have to know everything about being a parent to do this. You only need to have a sense of where you’ve been hurting, and what you really wished you’d gotten. And then let it go and let your own inner wisdom figure it out.
How could you know how to take care of your feelings as an adult, if no one modeled it for you as a child? At the time, you were dependent on them to tell you how things worked, what you could expect, what you were supposed to do. They taught you to accept too little, and to take too much responsibility for accommodating their inadequacies, rather than trying to get what you needed from them. Now, you have to undo that. And to believe, really believe, that as a human being you deserved more and still do.
Just believing that you deserve to get your needs met will gradually change your life. There’s a lot of internal processing that will happen in the background, as your deep layers of belief accept the new information (and it will accept it, because you really have those needs), and it gradually works its way through your emotional system and your thinking.
I had to do that, and it was a really interesting experience, almost like feeling a long-blocked part of my childhood self finally grow up. But it’s a good experience, all the way.
You deserve better. And you can learn to run your life that way. You can’t force other people to love you or treat you well. But you can sure make decisions about what you want and don’t want into your life, and thus create a life that’s better for you in every way.
You’ve already started doing this, making great progress. But I think if you go directly after this business with your father, and take over as the warm, loving parent in your own life, it will do wonders for you.
I hope this makes sense –
Kathy
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:10pm
Aeylah says:
Kindheart & Kathy,
Thank you so very much for your support and understanding. I’ve been feeling so blue and miserable and your kindness lifted my spirits.
Kathy, thanks you for validating my experience! …wow….something so menaingfull right now when everything seemed so confusing…for turning the whole “best and worst years of my life” concept around. You are right….those were the worst years of my life! and the best is yet to come.
You’re right too about the decompression part. You go from being suffocated, having all your energy derailed and drained to feeling the stillness and emptimess, but I know this too shall pass and I needed to be reminded again that all the love, care and doing I did for this sick man I must do for myself now.
Kindheart, I’m so sorry for the loss of your father. Your story resonates so much with my own… my father is a full blown N who has never approved of me and continues to try to control me with his own brand of manipulation. My relationship with him is always walking on egg shells, as I never know if he will berate me or be kind to me when I talk to him or see him. I recognize that my S was very much manipulative like my father (with the exception of the lying & cheating because my father is very loyal to my mother)…..and I’ve been trying to seek approval from him all my life.
Onwards….this is a new chapter in my life, and on a good note Kathy, I have done somthing good for myself. I started taking a real estate class and managed to pass the test this past monday!!!! …Something I could have never done with the S around, since he was trying to sabotage that as well when I started taking the class.
Thanks you so much to you all at LF
Aeylah
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:35pm
kindheart48 says:
hey gals, im snowed in today so i’ve been on the net reading up on the Col.Williams sex crimes and im sickened , brillian,t , meticulous, cold and cunning and im wondering how he managed to stay above the radar so long, he’s apparantly confessed to over 4 dozen lingerie sex crimes. I as a proud Canadian with a son who has just been commissioned as an Officer and i know im his mother but he’s the most decent , honorable kid you could find and this is what i have to be proud of, hard to differentiate i know between the person and the military , but as a Canadian they had better do a dam thorough investigation into this whole affair or im sure there is going to be an uproar. It leaves me to wonder , who or how or when should we speak up with these types . The one poor woman was a third generation military airforce family and her father (retired) is sickened as well. I cry for the poor families and the Military im sure will be looking in their own back yard and they had better be, this guy had been stationed all over so who knows what devastation is ahead, and i wonder what does his wife know. Where and when are we responsible for forthcoming with these predators and are people educated enough to understand. Im hoping it’s just a case of he was so articulate that he fooled everyone but i doubt it, arrogant to the core . I feel sorry for my son today with all the negative press as i know what he is made of and this country is lucky as many friends have said to have him i just hope something valuable is learned from all of this. love kindheart
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 12:53pm
kindheart48 says:
Kathleen , thank you so much for your kind words , im crying and you ar so right. I know i’ve watched my dad’s wake more than anyone trying to figure out what or why i didn’t have a relationship with him but you kno w when he was at the end, i instinctively knew and would wake up and drive right out to farm early in morn the last couple of days . I had been put through hell by all the toxic people aroudn him to the point of having to take a tape recorder out, they were trying to get me to sign off on my grandmas estat e , meaning my share and i looked after her alone. To think they were trying to keep me from my own father, using the excuse i was going to upset him, i was feeling like i was being disowned and couldn’t understand but i know my dad was confused with it all and it was not his intention. Anyway my point is his last night on earth, i got in the double bed that i lent them of my grandmas that afternon only getting out i think twice to pee becasue i was determined to be with him to the end and you know none of them stopped me becasuse i think they knew they either couldn’t or didn’t feel the need but i held his hand all afternoon and night till the von nurses told me to go up to bed with my stepmother and then we were called down 2 hours later that he had passed so i was with him to the end and nobody could have persuaded me not to be,it’s just so sad and im bawling now that he didn’t know or maybe he did how much i really cared. I know i wrote him a card and my mother in law kind of chuckled as he was confused thinking it was a fathers day card and i told him how very proudi always was of him because of how people loved him and i was also proud of how he handled dying and he apparantly really loved the card we just couldn’t show it either of us , I know he said he loved me but for so many years i felt like he was so indifferent to me , just s he was to his mother, my brother actually any close family member. He would never want me putting up with what i have with these men i do know that. Thank you as well for telling me that you think im doing alot better becasue sometimes i don’t see it and i’ve read your posts for years now and i admire your wisdom, i saw how far along you were when i first started reading and blogging. Very similar to when i went to AA and i could see where i could be if i just kept goingto meetings and praying etc. I really needed your wisdom as a woman who had come out the other side and become stronger and wiser for it so for that i thank you from my heart. kh
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 1:10pm
kindheart48 says:
Ayelah, congrats on the Real estate Test? Are you completely finished it. I took it decades ago when i was 18 as my mother had taken it and had the books andhad always wanted to do it but it was a conflict of int with my job at the bank. It’s pretty intensive now to take in Ontario, costwise as well as time and there are too many agents in this little city i live in but i know i would love anything in sales. Im interested to see how it goes for you, there are alot of overhead costs here involved but i know depending on circumstances and where you reside you could be very successful. It was a dream of mine before i got married and had children. The economy here is at an all time low so it wouldn’t make sense to do it at this point but i sure wanted to at one time. Best of luck to you girl. I remember my physichiatrist said to me and she was dead on , she said ” if you put as much effor t into yourself as you do others i’d hate to see what you could do” the sad part is i’ve wasted sooooooooooomuch energy i could have probably gotten my Masters and im not even joking. Im going to see if she has any remommendations as far as employment tomorrow as i find her to be a bright woman, and yes she knows what a sociopath is as i’ve asked. Not at first she said, but then the hair on her back goes up and bingo . You know she also said something to me once that i found humble she said Shelly ” im no better or no worse , and no dumber or smarter than you” in other words im the same as you , so don’t look up to anyone , just yourself. I really didn’t get it until now what she meant by that statement and now i can see she was encouraging me to not put myself down so much. love kh
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 1:22pm
Aeylah says:
Kindheart,
Thanks for the congrats…..the test I passed is just the class test, I still have to pass the state exam, and here in Florida were I live it is very difficult, costly and time consuming. I’m doing this despite the fact that FL has one of the worst economies and worst housing markets because I’m an optimist who thinks that what goes down must come up. It also dove tails with my now defunct career….architecture.
So sorry again about your situation regarding your dad….you have to find a way to forgive him and then you’re spirit will be lightened. I know that as long as my father is still alive I will continue to attempt being at peace with him. Maybe when I reach this point I will no longer seek approval from him or other men who prove to be toxic.
Keep your energy focused on you….like your therapist said….you can accomplish great things if you put your energy and mind to it…regardless how hard it is, you’ve done it before you will do it again.
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Wednesday, 10 February 2010 @ 2:57pm
jelltogether says:
Dear Luv,
I know too how much it hurts when you realize just how much the spath has lied to you. Just tonight I was enlightened by yet another person who knew so much about how sick he was. I wonder why no one bothered to tell me until now. It is amazing how many people will keep quiet about how sick these people are–shame on them for doing that! It makes me sick to know how many women he has used and abused. It makes me sicker to know that I let him into my life and that I loved him so much. I exposed my children to this man. I had no idea how he would sleep with anything that moved. I had an inkling that he was allergic to working but quickly found out that he would use any excuse to use my money to get himself out of jams. I feel sick that he has hampered my life by giving me an STD. But I am so happy that now I know because it killed the sickness that was “our love” and I can get on with having a normal life. I am lucky that I wasn’t killed by this bas***d. You got out alive and the hurt will be replaced by anger and that anger will help and not let this happen to you again!
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 9:56pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
I made a valentine’s card – a place where we can write love: http://lfvalentinescard.blogspot.com/
please spread the word.
best,
one step
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Thursday, 11 February 2010 @ 11:25pm
jelltogether says:
Just read the comments again on NC and boy does it help to hear again the reasons to stay that way. I understand the whole Valentine’s Day thing. It is easy to start thinking about the things you miss about the spath when this holiday rolls around. However with that said, it is also a great time to remind yourself that that kind of love you don’t need and no amount of flowers, candy or cards can give you back what you have lost by being involved with these people. NC means that you can keep your sanity. NC means they can’t worm their way into your heart. Be good to yourself because they will never be.
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Saturday, 13 February 2010 @ 7:45pm