The psychopathic personality and human evolution
PDF Dr. Robert Hare, who did seminal work in identifying psychopaths, refers to them as “intraspecies predators.” This prompted questions from a Lovefraud reader who asked,
- If psychopaths are indeed natural predators (by implication, their design is part of nature’s plan to maintain some balance) then would we ever be able to weed them out of society?
- Do they have a purpose in the natural order of things?
In this article, I’m going to address the second question. Then, next week, I’ll suggest an answer to the first question.
I don’t know about a purpose, but there are researchers who believe psychopaths are around us today because they survived the natural selection process of human evolution.
These researchers call psychopathy “a nonpathological, reproductively viable, alternate life history strategy.” This theory is outlined in Coercive and Precocious Sexuality as a Fundamental Aspect of Psychopathy, a paper published in 2007 by Grant T. Harris, PhD; Marnie E. Rice, PhD; N. Zoe Hilton, PhD; Martin L. Lalumiere, PhD; and Vernon L. Quinsey, PhD.
Evolution
Let’s talk about the evolution idea first. The authors write that our distant ancestors probably formed stable groups, characterized by cooperation and adherence to rules, which enabled early mankind to survive and flourish. However, some humans survived through cheating and exploiting others—the alternative life strategy.
Grant et. al. write that from childhood, psychopathic personalities are fundamentally different from others, but the differences are not the result of a medical failure or injury. They point out that pregnancy difficulties can be related to schizophrenia and mental retardation, but not psychopathy. “While many adverse medical conditions and injuries lead to antisocial and violent behavior, our selectionist hypothesis suggests that they do not cause psychopathy,” they write.
The early psychopaths—cheaters then as now—put a lot of energy into acquiring sexual partners, and were willing to use deception and coercion to do it. As a result, they produced a lot of offspring. Even if early psychopaths died young because then, as now, they probably engaged in high-risk behavior, their liberal procreation was enough to get the hereditary train rolling.
Sex and criminal behavior
Psychopaths first have sex at a young age, have many partners, and are uncommitted in sexual relationships. Studies show that people who have this approach to sex also are more likely to engage in criminal and violent behavior.
Some people, called life course persistent offenders, Grant et. al. write, “begin aggressive and antisocial conduct at very young ages and persist at rates higher than any other offenders throughout the lifespan.”
People tend to think that their problem is poor social learning, that individuals who break laws against crime and violence also break social norms regarding sex. But research has also shown that delinquency and antisocial behavior are associated with early onset of puberty and sexual activity. Young people don’t learn, or decide, when to mature sexually. So why is there a connection between early onset of puberty and crime?
The study
Grant et. al. believe that “coercive and precocious sexuality” is not a result of the psychopathic personality, but a key to defining it. For the study described in the paper, the researchers predicted “early onset, high frequency and coercive sexuality would be a key, unique and diagnostic feature of psychopathy.”
The researchers studied the case histories of 512 male sex offenders. (Sex offenders were selected because their files generally contain detailed information about their sexual history.) They established the scores of the offenders on the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R). They also looked at the sexual histories of the offenders prior to age 15. A statistical analysis revealed correlations between early and frequent sexual behavior and sexual coercion with general antisocial behavior and elevated PCL-R scores.
“We propose that interpersonal sexual and nonsexual aggression are not best conceived of as the consequence of psychopathic personality traits, but as fundamental aspects of the condition itself,” the authors wrote.
Genetic history
The researchers’ expected that coercive and precocious sexuality were indicators of psychopathy because of their original hypothesis—psychopathy is an alternative life strategy.
“From a theoretical perspective, the present results lend some support to a selectionist hypothesis that psychopathy exists because it has been a heritable and reproductively viable condition during human evolution.”
Psychopaths, in other words, are not physically defective or medically ill. These researchers believe that they are just different, and, because they engaged in a lot of sex, were able to pass on their genes through the millennia.
Read the complete study:
Coercive and Precocious Sexuality as a Fundamental Aspect of Psychopathy
They are what they are
It’s shocking to think that there may be nothing medically wrong with these “intraspecies predators.” But in a way, the idea that psychopaths are pursuing an “alternate life history strategy” dovetails with what we often say here on Lovefraud. Psychopaths are what they are. They are cheaters and exploiters. They take advantage of others because that’s what they do.
Did nature intend this? I don’t know, but they survived.
While researching this story, I came across another paper with an interesting perspective on what to do about it, which I’ll discuss next week.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
hens says:
Yeah we did that too…!
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ErinBrock says:
goodnight…….
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autisticsouls says:
pollyannanomore says:
“…autistic souls – tell me about your plants … in the house and outside …”
my house has a garden inside and out. outside we have plants everywhere. vegetables growing everywhere, even some fruit trees.
we loved the house because it was L-shaped and there were glass screen doors everwhere so all rooms except one, (but even that one had a hallway view) look out into the back yard and viewed each other.
in the school room there is one complete wall that is all glass screen door looking out. the adjoing hallway, the living room, dining room, and the master bedroom all of them have huge glass doors with a view to our back yard.
i can look out from the master bedroom glass screen door and see the dolphin, Des and nurse from here. with just plants sheilding the view at times, ferns and more. outside we grow tomatoes, peppers, lettuce, and all kinds of herbs. then there are also buckets of flowers growing all year long. inside we have all sorts of indoor plants that are effective in pulling away pollutants and carbon dioxide and clearn the air in our home.
i never thought i could have plants with my allergies and asthma but now i’m completely surrounded. our inside looks alot like outside. being that everywhere you look outside is seen inside. we have a small three bedroom home but five glass doors that overlook outside and each other.
on all the glass doors there is hanging from crocheted pots ferns that reach nearly to the ground. like Rapunzel her green leafy hair drapped down all over, down to little IKEA shelves where several other plants are perked.
it’s like our little oasis. being surrounded by living things and bringing outside inside is soothing. the office desktop desk alone has seven plants perched on it amidst cd’s and the printer and other office supply.
after a draining day at work i can either sit outside or inside and just refresh and reboot myself. i quit my job but i’ve been called back but i’m taking a week off to reorganize myself and sort out what happened and how to best be able to handle things, if i were to return. so i’m taking a break. i’ve been offered a job elsewhere which in this economy is pretty good with unemployment being what it is. so that feels reassuring.
at night we have year round christmas lights on the beams of the patio which you can see inside or outside. Des and the Dolphin often sit on the floor staring outside. it’s very soothing. i always need to get away from all the noise of everyday stresses. i’m not shutting down or off either, which i often do, i’m interacting socially still, making new friends. this still counts as friendly social interactions. we don’t have to sit and have coffee, or live in the same city to develop positive interactions with each other. the internet has opened a new access of interactions and connections between people.
Mike
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Overcoming says:
What I notice from my relationship with the p is that he was extremely primitive. He looked for all kind of gratification: sex, food, drugs..He was intelligent and used this as a tool to “survive”, and actually his view of “surviving” is very different from us. He saw women as animals, females who could satisfy him but changed partners if that female was not feeding him with what he needed anymore or thought another one would give him more than the present one. I think he had primitive instincts with very developed inteligence. It’s crazy. He lookd like an animal who could think.
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Overcoming says:
Would their sexual impulse be an unconscious way to spread genetic material? From my point of you, this is another feature of them: no impulse control, no limits. I don’t know with you guys, but from my experience, it seems that my ex reacted a lot more sexually than other man I had sexual relationship. His libido seemed to be much higher than “common” men.
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Overcoming says:
icanseeclearlynow says:
I just read your article from January 18th and I completely agree with you.
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witsend says:
Overcoming,
Most S/P/N s feel very entitled. That entitlement includes how they interact with people. Like we are possessions that they own rather than “feeling” human beings. This can also often be seen with how they treat their own children. That “ownership”. There isn’t even substance in their relationships with their children.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
overcoming – i am not sure about the unconscious impulse – i haven’t looked at this issue deeply. definitely there seems to be an affect of seeing children as nothing more than ‘collateral damage’ from their compulsion to use sex.
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Overcoming says:
Actually when I ask about this “genetic pursue” I am also wondering if this is true. My ex loved sex, but hated the idea of having children. He had one with his ex girlfriend, but didn’t care about her, even moved to another country. When I thought I was pregnant he wanted me to miscarry. So there isn’t a relation here. Once he told me he could control himself because he was seeing me, because before he would have acted “as a dog”. In my opinion he was only trying to gain confidence. He had never stopped acting “like a dog” (having sex with anyone)
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one_step_at_a_time says:
overcoming – your description of him as an animal who could think was pretty chilling. but because they CAN speak, they LIE.
it’s amazing how telling they are about who and what they really are in the world, we just have to understand spath speak – the projection on to others and on to themselves, ‘if only i wasn’t with you’.
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pollyannanomore says:
Mike … what a poetic description of all your beautiful plants! I can almost see them and sense the energy you get from them. I like the description of the Rapunzel plant with her hair streaming down! Do you write poetry? If not … please consider it – there is reverance and awe for everything living in your words
That man who was here Mike was trying to steal our energy .. he wanted us to feel pain – when that happens we switch our topic of talk to house plants or something inane like decorating or films we have seen – usually they go away. We don’t respond to what they are using to provoke us – one visited when I was very new here and I didn;t understand what was happening, but I saw it last night and recognised he was a predator – I will delete part of this comment after you have read it – just let me know – when you;ve read it tell me again about the Rapunzel plant 
Mike that is wonderful you have been offered another job – it’s especially impressive given the economic conditions – do you have someone who can advocate with you at your old job? A union? Or someone from an autism organisation? Employers are not legally allowed to have bullying happening in employment situations – the penalties can be quite severe for them if they don;t take swift action when they find out about it.
The Christmas lights sound delightful – your home sounds like a little oasis from the bustle of the world. I am glad you have such a nurturing space to unwind in.
I agree with you – the net makes friendships possible that otherwise wouldn;t be. Just because we aren;t all meeting in one another;s cities doesn;t mean we are not friends
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pollyannanomore says:
I have lost the article but I read an article by Liane Leedom that identified one type of spath who looked at children as a mechanism to keep women trapped with them. There was another type however that looked at children with jealousy and would pressure women to abort if they became pregnant – silly me for losing the article!
Overcoming I see he wanted you to miscarry – what kind of man wants that??? I think the high libido IS an unconscious wish to spread genes … but then they don’t want to take responsibility for any children that eventuate – maybe impregnating and dumping is the ultimate win for them?
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autisticsouls says:
Icanseeclearly, your description of your psycho fit me to a “T” which I have come to the realization before and was quite disconcerted about it.
It has been stated by a sociopath that we were nothing more than two different sides of the same coin.
Needless to say that did not sit well with me. Sort of like in Empire Strikes Back when Darth Vader tells Luke Skywalker, “Luke, I am your father.” And then Luke’s face contorts in the obvious torment as he process this information and screams, “NO!!!” realizing that it was true that they were in fact kin and then just seemingly breaking under it the realization, Luke chooses to let go falling to what would have been sure death…
ICANSEE CLEARLY wrote: “…If they cook a meal, they learn one meal and cook it EXACTLY the same way each time. That’s it. No variation. Like a robot…”
Again you might as well be describing me.
“…There is an automatic, rehearsed, learned quality to their movement that is not fluid, as well as compulsive repetitive movements…”
Exactly, that is me too. and although it would also be accurate to state that not all of them have these deficits, to be sure some may move quite well and fluently, but a type of them most certainly have these deficits. I think when I met my ex-friend, co-worker it was nearly like looking at myself in the mirror which was one reason I didn’t recognize him for what he was. But that is no difference in many arenas. (I guess I was really clueless last night, huh? and one step, that very day, did warn me.)
i digress, moving back to topic; he did seem to get things down a lot faster than I did, because he practiced more apparently. And his motivations were quite different. Disparingly different. Like he would practice different flirting techniques, and I had no interest in such things. Also, I had different priorities and work ethics that I wouldn’t compromise. Like during work I focused on work and would allocate time to be social when I felt it was deemed appropriate, like break time or lunch time but not during the time I was actually working.
But his career seemed to be more along the lines of fine tuning his human social interaction skills at every moment and turn and oppurtunity, which I guess would be a very good reason why he moved better and more fluently than I did.
Competency in social interactions is an interest to me. but more as a function to reach a certain goal, which is: to get along with others, make a few true friends, and live in relative harmony with my fellow man. It is not a lifelong obsession, in and of itself. I had no intention or the need to win everyone over. And I never understood this about him.
eventually i realized our differences. There is a distinct difference between lack of emotional connection (him) versus the inability to convey emotion (me) . Visibly it can be difficult to ascertain the differences between the two.
As such there is also a distinct difference from feigning emotion (him), and attempting to display the emotions I did have for others (me).
our similarities seemed only that for either of us it was not a natural thing for us to accomplish and it did not come to us automatically, many times giving off a forced look to things. it was something we both had to work on, even if it was for two totally different reasons and for disparingly different ends…
Mike
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lightsaber says:
Mike,
I like the symbolism of the lightsaber from The Star Wars stories. I spent some time earlier today reading about Luke and Darth Vadar and the Force and Light and Dark.
So, your using Star Wars and Luke and Darth Vadar to describe your own situation is MOST FITTING
Mike says: “I think when I met my ex-friend, co-worker it was nearly like looking at myself in the mirror which was one reason I didn’t recognize him for what he was.”
“And his motivations were quite different.
Disparingly different.”
Yes. I can see that! Two sides of the coin indeed. I can totally understand how this would cause so much trepidation and, like Luke Skywalker, a kind of repulsion – to see someone that exhibits outward similar mannerisms, yet be a force or energy for bad/evil, while you yourself want the opposite. It’s a true horror.
Mike says: “I guess I was really clueless last night, huh?
We are ALL clueless at times. This is the nature of the game when evil wheres a mask. We CAN be fooled. But, we can also learn, so as not to be fooled again
Plus you are NOT clueless about so many things! I have learned from your genuine insight.
I found your last 3 paragraphs particularly eloquent – actually the last 4 paragraphs.
Thank you so much for sharing your perspective.
lightsaber
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one_step_at_a_time says:
weilder of light saber – your name is still about light and seeing! awesome!
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autisticsouls says:
Pollyannnomre said: “…Mike that is wonderful you have been offered another job – it’s especially impressive given the economic conditions – do you have someone who can advocate with you at your old job? A union? Or someone from an autism organisation? Employers are not legally allowed to have bullying happening in employment situations – the penalties can be quite severe for them if they don;t take swift action when they find out about it…”
i can have, but in a sense, i’m not sure i’m comfortable with having others fight my battles for me unless absolutely necassary. some things i have to eventually learn to manage on my own. i don’t want to be coddled. there are those that really do need some outside assistance, far more deserving and needing of them then i am. and it is not right to exhaust resources best utilized elsewhere. i’ve gotten this far i can positively view this as a learning expereince.
publicly shutting down like i did as if i slipped into some catatonic state is really not good in the work place regardless. i want to be treated like others, not get special treatment. somehow even if i felt that i can move past that episode i don’t think that even as hard as i have strived to be seen as capable and functional in my time there, that it’s likely others will probably not be able to move past or erase the image of a grown man shutting off, rocking back and forth staring at nothing and becoming completely unresponsive.
my guess would be that too many people there will not be able to get past that image. at the same time i will not be comfortable returning to environment where everyone will possibly be walking on egg shells around me as if i would break like glass.
it was unfortunate but regardless of who instigated the meltdown, or who pushed all my buttons so as to ignite and put on display that part of my autism that i never wanted anyone there to ever witness, it IS unprofessional to shut down in the work place like that especially in light that most people there were unaccustumed to seeing such a display.
Mike
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lightsaber says:
one_step – yeah I know eh LOL It’s a theme with me
lightsaber: “BACK OFF EVIL FORCES!!”
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pollyannanomore says:
Mike I can understand that – I often say to people “When it gets to the point that you have to involve the union – you are probably going to have to leave” The reality is often employers and colleagues don’t treat you the same after you’ve had a dispute at work. In your case – you were severely provoked … I am wondering if you have a provision like ‘stress leave’ in your country. In my country I could go to my Doctor, explain the situation and have him give me a medical certificate signing me off from work for several weeks on the grounds of psychological stress. Remember Mike a stress breakdown is quite a different thing to what we think of as a nervous breakdown. A stress breakdown and the responses you described could happen to anyone if provoked enough – even without having Autism.
Sometimes though you are right that people can’t forget the image of us at our lowest point … if that;s the case then maybe a clean break is the best bet. It’s really lucky you have that other offer on the table – that gives you choices right now. A lot of people I have known who have had stress breakdowns are unfit for work for a long long time afterwards.
I don’t know if you have read much about workplace bullying Mike – Only you will know the reason you were singled out – it may not have been autism. I wonder if you might find this site helpful as I did.
http://www.bullyonline.org/
I am really sorry you went through that experience Mike – it destroys self esteem and makes us all really self conscious. Please know it wasn’t your fault – they were just looking for someone to target and if not you it would have been someone else. I hope you’re healing from this bad experience and finding some comfort in that beautiful garden!
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pollyannanomore says:
Oh and Mike … if you haven’t resigned yet … hang off on doing so till you have seen an employment lawyer – you may have a valid case against your employer for not providing a safe working environment. If you do decide to take action in this area the fact you have autism will definitely throw favor on your side of the matter.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
autisticsouls / Mike,
I read your last post, and understand how you feel. But maybe there is another way to look at this.
You wrote: “Publicly shutting down like i did as if i slipped into some catatonic state is really not good in the work place regardless.”
I would argue with this. A workplace is not a jail, nor is it a lockstep military environment where everyone has to be exactly alike. You weren’t hired to be “normal.” You were hired to produce something.
The only quality about a workplace that is different from most other environments is that we interact with the same people day after day. And in certain circumstances we work in teams who share certain tasks, swapping materials back and forth, negotiating over over processes and roles, but ultimately working toward a shared goal. I don’t know if you are working in a team like that, but they create a more intimate awareness and need to accommodate other team members, than an environment which is more about just dealing with each other in passing.
So we may have to deal with the guy who tells corny jokes or off-color jokes. Or the person who wants to talk too much about the kids or the vacation. Or someone who is ambitious and wants to steal credit for our work. Or people who are brag about their sexual conquests or who are crying over a romantic break-up. Or people who are suffering with a broken arm or the loss of a loved one. Or people who come back drunk from lunch. Or the ones who keep asking us for advice or trying to give us help we don’t need.
So, my point here is that the social issues that we face in workplaces are similar to what we face anywhere else in the world. Except we see the same people everyday, and maybe we work closely with them. In either case, we still have to deal with their uniqueness. And they still have to deal with ours.
Someone I know is the star reporter at an important publication with a small core staff. She comes from a very difficult family background and is only second-generation American. So she has a lot of “non-standard” quirks. These quirks cause her to be judged (wrongly) who don’t know her. Later, they discover that she’s generous, kind and infinitely smarter than they first realized, not just in information, but in understanding how to do things in better ways. She’s lived with these pre-judgments all her life, and used to be very hurt about it.
Now she’s been through the acceptance process enough times that she waits it out, just being her eccentric self (because she can’t help it), and figuring that they’re going to “get” her at some point. And they do. Over time, a huge group of people who “get” her have grown around her, and that makes it easier for her to get through the rough patches with people who talk about how crazy she is.
You wrote: “i don’t think that even as hard as i have strived to be seen as capable and functional in my time there, that it’s likely others will probably not be able to move past or erase the image of a grown man shutting off, rocking back and forth staring at nothing and becoming completely unresponsive.”
Mike, you are autistic. What you did is a pretty normal thing for an autistic person under stress to do. And actually, if you did a poll around here of how many people have done exactly the same thing in response to stress, you might be surprised. Maybe they didn’t do it front of anyone else. If they were at work, maybe they locked themselves into a stall in the restroom, or went outside to sit on a park bench, until the shutting down gave them a chance to let the feelings dissipate and the rocking comforted them. But they’ve done it. And the only difference with you is that you created this private space to deal with your feelings right in front of everyone else.
You can’t not be who you are. You can try to be something else, or “pass.” But no one, not even a sociopath who is very good at pretending, can spend much time around other people without their real thoughts and real feelings bleeding through. And as a person who is different from the everyday people around you, not completely different but in a few ways that do show up in daily exposure, you are in the position of raising their consciousness.
I know that no one told you that this was part of your job. But it’s part of the job of every minority person who interacts with majority people who assume that the majority reality is the only reality.
I have that job as someone who is older than most of the people I know (and have strengths and advantages that come with it that they don’t know about, as well as infirmities and wrinkles). People of different races do too. Gay and lesbian people. Blind people, wheelchair people, people with accents, people of different religions, people with tattoos and piercings, people who dress up or dress down.
You know all this, but you say you want to be accepted. I would suggest you rephrase this. I think what you really want is to be recognized as an attractive and valuable person in your own right, and with something meaningful to share. Because all of that is true.
The problem is not you, and your differences. Because it sounds like you are doing what you are all there to do, which is produce whatever you’re supposed to be producing for the people who pay for your time. The problem is that you, just by being yourself, are challenging them to understand what to make of your differences. And they’re struggling with it. Which is pretty normal. Everyone fights change, especially change that requires them to let go of some easy, lazy thinking. And that would definitely be true if you’re challenging them to understand that something is okay for you that they never imagined could be okay for them.
One of the things I love about your wife is that she makes no apologies for who she is. She will explain it to someone who doesn’t have a clue. But her okayness with herself means that she feels no shame in making these explanations. She’s giving people a chance to understand, but her self-esteem doesn’t hang on whether they do or not. I’m sure she’s been in situations where people treated her with criticism, distrust, and lack of understanding. And she knows that those people can make her life more difficult in getting what she needs, so she looks for people who can understand her. But once she shares information abouat herself, their understanding or lack of it is about them, not her. If someone is willing come halfway, she’ll come the other halfway to them. But I doubt she wastes much time on people who are not willing to extend themselves to understand her.
Can you do that in an everyday workplace? Actually I think you can. It’s an attitudinal thing more than anything else. Being okay with yourself and your differences. What you did was what a lot of autistic people do under stress. Now they’ve seen it. If anyone asks, you can let them know what they saw — an autistic technique for stress management. It’s something that people like you do.
If someone wants to laugh at you or make some other kind of big deal about it, that’s what people like them do. If the people you work for — and these are really the only people you need to be worried about — express some concern that your behavior was disruptive, you can explain the same thing to them. From an employment perspective, you are probably protected by an “Americans with disabilities” status, but you can let them know that you would prefer that they help you in promoting understanding of your differences in your office. Because you like the job, like the people, and would like to give them the opportunity to get to know you beyond the apparent differences.
This is a simple diversity issue. There are always going to be people whose self-esteem is so fragile that they have to make fun of other people to make themselves feel better. Pretenders fit into that category, but way out on the far end of the spectrum, where they have to use other people to try to cure their feelings of being nothing. But there are many other people who are open and interested and looking to make friendly connections.
I like you. I enjoy your posts, and relate to what you say in so many ways. I think there are a lot of people here who would say exactly the same thing. And maybe there are a few people here who don’t understand you yet. And maybe a few people who will never understand you and maybe even find you threatening. And if that were the case, you’d be exactly like the rest of us.
The bottom line is that you are not wrong. There is nothing wrong about you. You are Mike. The everyday people have terms called autism or Aspergers to describe a set of differences, because this kind of naming is their version of getting their feelings under control and comforting themselves. But just because they name you and you’re a little different doesn’t mean that you’re not normal. You’re just a different normal than them.
And if you can come home to that in yourself, then you let go of your shame about behaving in a perfectly normal way for you. And you can move through live without assuming their their differences mean anything about you. And you can get a good attitude and maybe even a sense of humor about the little confusions and conflicts that arise. Doctor Spock was pretty sanguine about the challenges of working with Captain Kirk, and got to the point that he could crack dry little Vulcan jokes about it.
You wrote that it was “unprofessional to shut down in the work place like that especially in light that most people there were unaccustomed to seeing such a display.” Mike, they’ll live. And actually it’s good for them to have their consciousness raised a little. You didn’t attack someone or throw your desk out the window or start casting gypsy curses. You retreated into yourself, and shut them out. You took care of yourself.
Maybe it was in a way they hadn’t seen before. But maybe they can learn something from it. Maybe if you come back with a smile on your face and a joke about running seminars on autistic stress management, maybe you’ll be surprised at how relieved and happy some people are that you’re okay, and that you didn’t decide to reject them and never give them a second chance. You never know.
Kathy
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autisticsouls says:
hello kathy,
i’m absorbing this post and letting it marinate inside for a bit.
my mind goes in one direction, my emotions go another.
it’s like i’m at war with myself.
i got a text message from my ex-friend, he still calls me brother, he sent me the seether song “Fake it” i’m not sure what to make of it. he said this is ‘our song’.
i know it’s just to toy with me. but when you thought you knew someone so well, you just can’t help but puzzle over it all some. he says i shouldn’t take things so personally. to stop being a (unmentionable).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy8HPSIFXEM
i feel a little weak today. i’m going to lick my wounds tonite. tomorrow is another day. a better day i hope.
Mike.
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ErinBrock says:
Autisticsouls:
What Kathy wrote is wonderful (THANKS KATHY!). And it is so very true….
You are in a position to teach. We are NOT all the same, and we DO NOT all think, see or view the same either.
RE: your ex friend…..I would suggest a continuation of being an EX friend and ignore what this person is trying to control you with. “our song’ means….he’s the fake in the ‘relationship…….
Take it for what it is….mean and nasty and controlling and ignore this person.
Your emotions will have alot to do with your day to day ‘health’…..so protect your emotions and allow yourself to be strong and not downtrodden!
Have a nice weekend…..
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Mike, I’m sorry you’re having a hard day.
I just want to respond to your last post.
I suspect that you’re ex-friend isn’t toying with you, as much as trying to solve a problem for himself. I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s in trouble at work, because you left.
However, being a guy who has no compassion for other people’s feelings and who thinks it’s perfectly normal to pretend to be what he’s not, he’s urging you to be the same. For him, it would be a wonderful solution if you decided that you were being stupid to have your feelings, and showed up smiling telling everyone it was your fault for being too sensitive. In fact, it would be a double win. Because he’d get out of trouble, and he would have the pleasure of knowing that he controlled your behavior and got you to do what he wanted.
All that is about him, him, him.
And he’d like it if you wanted to please him, and spent a lot of time thinking about his opinions, and even got upset when he made fun of you. He’s that kind of guy. It’s all about him.
The only way to fight this kind of person is to make it about you. We have a little saying here that sometime you have to be a sociopath to deal with a sociopath. And we don’t mean that you turn into a terrible person. But you do turn into a completely self-centered and unfeeling person in dealing with them. Because it’s the only way to deal with them.
You will never get what you want from them, unless you’re prepared to pay three times what it’s worth. But you can have a satisfying life if you stop caring about them or trying to get anything from them, and just focus on things that give you satisfaction. This is your life. It’s about you.
With nicer people, you can be nicer.
So do yourself a favor and ignore the text. Don’t worry about what it meant. Don’t try to figure out if there is anything there for you to learn. Just classify it as coming from an untrustworthy source, and assume it’s a lie. Whatever it is, it’s a lie. Light a mental match and burn it.
But don’t erase it. Because ther day may come when you need it for evidence. With sociopaths, it’s always a good idea to keep records. You never know when they’ll come in handy.
I hope you have a nice and restful evening.
Kathy
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Kathleen Hawk says:
And thanks, Erin, for the kind words. I’m feeling a little out there myself today. Had a “new” old issue come up this week, a real doozy. One of those denial-cracks out of nowhere that explains ten different layers of stuff and I can’t even see the bottom of. I’m at the handwringing stage of looking at myself and going, no, no, I really wasn’t like this. If you give me a minute, I can fix this if I just do this or that. Hopefully it doesn’t take me too longer for the conveyor belt to drop me into anger, so I can figure out WTF.
I HATE early-stage processing. Hate the hating myself part. Hate the feeling stupid part. Hate the feeling victimized by myself part. Whine, whine.
I’m ready, Lord. Please show me something to be angry about.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
kathy,
having your intelligence, openess to risk, and own complex nature used against you is worth being angered for.
props,
one step
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks, sweetie. You couldn’t have said a better thing. Yanked that conveyor belt right over to the correct furnace.
Have you considered becoming a therapist?
Kathy
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one_step_at_a_time says:
only for cats.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Funny woman.
Seems like tough work. Though I could imagine it more easily the other way around.
The long inquiring stare…
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hehehehehe……………
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Stargazer says:
Mike,
I read an article here about an excellent way to deal with behaviors such as your “friend’s” behavior. It’s one line:
“What do you mean by that?” It puts the responsibility back on them to explain their behavior. I have been practicing with this line mostly on another internet site I belong to. The internet is the perfect place to practice these things because people can sometimes be so nasty hiding behind the anonymity of their keyboard. I find that when I have used this line, one of two things happen: The person disappears (presumably not wanting to answer for their bad behavior) or they actually explain what they meant and we reach an understanding. If their explanation is still rude to me, I will say something like: “You seem to be uncomfortable with the way I am.” Again, this puts the responsibility squarely back on them.
I have a co-worker I’ve known for 7 years, and I’m starting to see that she is often judgmental toward me (I’m just figuring this out.) I told her the other day that I disagreed with the way our supervisor did something. Her response was, “Oh but Sherri if you were there, you would have agreed with it.” I argued, “No, I disagree with it philosophically.” She continued to argue with me. Finally I just said something like, “You seem to need me to have the same opinions you do.” She didn’t have a response for that, but I felt much better afterward, because prior to that, she had totally invalidated me. I was starting to feel angry until I just basically handed her narcissism back to her.
I read about a similar technique in a book called “Safe People”. It said if you have to deal with a narcissist like my friend above, you can learn to just deflect their statements back to them. Example: They say, “You were wrong for doing such and such. ” You say, “Hmmm. You are judging me for doing such and such.” That way you will not take in the negative energy, but rather, give it back to them.
I don’t know if this will make sense to anyone.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Star – did you get my links for the feline CRF sites?
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Stargazer says:
No, I will have to go back and look. I still have not gotten the definitive diagnosis, so I’ll wait till tomorrow. There are a lot of ways to prolong the life of a cat wth CRF, including homeopathic remedies, home made diet, daily IV’s, etc. To tell you the truth, I don’t have the money or the heart to try and prolong his life. I will just make him as comfortable as possible. He has lived a long life, and the last 9 years he has spent in my care he was worshipped like a king every day. I think he will die soon, and I will just let him go. I don’t have it in me to try all these things, and I don’t think it is what he would want. He was once a very vibrant Siamese. He is now a skeleton and a shadow of his former self. I will spend the whole weekend cuddling with him.
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autisticsouls says:
we are both having a bad day, it looks like. What happened to you today kathy? are you okay? here you are helping me out all the while going through things yourself.
it’s a bad time for everyone. Des is preoccupied with some with things. seizures the both of them. but not bad. didn’t even reach 2 minutes so we didn’t have to pull out the diastat. just throws them off for a loop. i don’t bug her with my stuff at times like this. so i dumped my problems on you guys without giving a thought that you all have lives and worries of your own. i guess i assumed with the wisdom and experience of your posts that things have been conquered.
i’ve got all weekend to think about my issues and decide what i’m going to do next, i’ll put that on the shelf for now.
is there anyhting i can do for you? i hope i can somehow be here for you to help. i can’t tell you i’ll be of any real help per se. but a coworker friend of mine said just listening helps.
it has been a very short time for me here but i had been soothed alot here. i guess being cut off from friends at work and my regular routine i just didn’t know what to do with myself as i fell into ‘limbo’ status.
but on a great note. even though i hard a hard week before, i made new friends this week. also i just saw Star Trek’s First Contact on Sci Fi not so long ago, so i’m back in a good mood. Caprica is on now. i do not recommend it. although Battlestar galactica was epic.
Mike
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Star – i was going to repost them for you – but they are not needed, you know where you are going.
i did all those things you listed. i loved my bei boy and crf took him from me.
there is a very good website – it is a yahoo group, a forum, called Angel on My Shoulders. Most of the people, mostly women, have lived through Crf with their cats. It was an amazing place. I suspect it still is.
peace
one step
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Stargazer says:
I will keep that in mind if the time comes. Since I have not even gotten the diagnosis yet, I’m in a state of suspended shock–best way I know how to describe it. I can’t cry yet, because it’s not real till I hear from the vet.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Mike, it’s nice to hear from you. Sounds like a too-eventful day all around. I’m glad Des and Dolphin are okay.
That was good advice your friend gave you. And you’re really good at it. I can feel that you care, and that’s like vitamins for my heart. (Unlike you’re ex-friend, you’re not saying “Oh get over it.”)
I’m really okay. I don’t mind stuff coming up. I have a lot of old issues and behaviors to sort out. I’ve been cruising on a plateau for a while, feeling like I had everything under control. It was time for something serious to come up for me to think about. I know I’m not finished, It’s better to work on this stuff when I have a little peace, rather than having a high-speed collision with my own dysfunctional thinking in the midst of some real-life drama.
I don’t know if that makes sense, but it just the way I think.
I hope you and the family have a good weekend. From all those plants outside, it sounds like you live in a warmer place. Here, everything was covered with hard lacy frost this morning, and my car wouldn’t start. Tomorrow it will be warmer and sunny. I can’t wait.
Kathy
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autisticsouls says:
deleted
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pollyannanomore says:
Kathy I am going to second Mike and other posters who are concerned for you. You have been so strong for all of us leading the way through the crap we couldn’t see the light through. You don’t have to be strong all the time – it’s ok to crack a bit and say you don’t want to deal with any more ‘processing’. It’s a hard work – the hardest there is. I hope you are doing something nurturing for you – something non word related where you can express the unexpressable. Maybe painting or sculpting or even devising how another character might deal with this in the mirror.
You can tell me to p*** off. I’m tough enough to handle that thanks to you! But please take the warning signs that are coming up for you and DO some loving of YOURSELF. A hot bath with beautiful oils, some pampering lotions and some deep breathing with the perfect music to accompany. A massage would be a great way to release the tension from the muscles – you take in so much of our ‘stuff’ … I worry about that. Yes you are strong, but you don’t analyse our situations in a cold way – you feel them and that means absorbing some of the energy. As you know we deal with the darkest energy in these situations with spaths.
So in closing … please take care of YOU! YOU are important and wonderful and delightful and supportive and kind and helpful and nurturing and loving and patient and peaceful and strong and capable and giving and vulnerable as well. Look after the cracked places … they need extra attention.
Sending you some loving thoughts – thanks for not just going AWOL with your current focus. We all care about you – you are very important in our lives and if we were with you, well you would be inundated with caring. Someone would clean your house, someone else would put beautiful clean sheets and covers on your bed, someone else would fluff your pillows, someone would read you a story and someone else would sing you a song. Unfortunately we are not there with you so can only send our sentiments over this strange contraption called the net.
With much love (and a wee bit of concern!)
Polly
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pollyannanomore says:
Star … I have no words – can’t even imagine what you’re going through. Please know I am thinking of you both and you are in my thoughts and prayers – you know your beautiful cat best and what is best for him.
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lightsaber says:
Stargazer – I’m so sorry about your kitty cat. (((hugs))))
And also about something you posted about bouncing stuff back to spaths and you weren’t sure if anyone got what you meant? I do. I love that idea and I think it would work marvellously. I can’t wait to try it on the next Narc who makes the mistake of f**king with me
My favorite line of all, is one Kathy recommended a while back and it has stuck with me. It’s:
“That doesn’t do anything for me.”
I LOVE THAT LINE! IT’S SO FREAKEN PERFECT, especially for the Narcissistic Sociopaths.
This may sound nuts (hahahaha or maybe not!) but I’ve been practicing saying that line with a completely emotionless, Look’m right in the eye, straight face.
Kathy – I think you’re wonderful. Give as much to yourself as you give to others and don’t be so hard on yourself (((hugs))))
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miss k says:
As I read the first post in this thread I realize there is some truth to that. My ex started having sex at age 11.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Polly (and to anyone else who is worried about me),
I think you didn’t believe me when I said I welcome this. Processing is hard, yes. But what makes it hard is resisting it. We don’t like the feelings. We don’t like the perspectives it opens. We keep spending energy not liking it, until we finally give up and face the feelings, then what they’re telling us about what we’re facing, then the truth. And then how the truth affects everything else.
I once told my Buddhist friend that I sometimes felt like a reed through which the breath of God breathes. That was when I was talking about healing work I did with other people, so it’s not exactly the same thing. But something like it.
Eventually we have to digest reality. Take it into ourselves and let it become part of our understanding. And let go of the all the bits of stuff that are really about resisting it. Reality isn’t good or bad. It just is. Ultimately the meaning of everything is just about where we stand when we view ourselves and life. And the wonderful thing about this whole process is that more we come to accept reality, the more we come to accept ourselves, and the more we appreciate the patterns and how they really do make sense, if we can just detach a bit and get some perspective.
I saw something in myself this week that I’ve known about for a long time. Something that troubled me, but that I thought I’d adequately addressed in my previous self-work, so that it wasn’t going to be a problem anymore. But this time, when I saw it, I saw more than I’d ever seen before. Patterns of behavior, driven by deep hungers, shaped by old damage that had affected every relationship in my life. And they were going to affect every future relationship, until I followed them down to wherever they began and learned what it was I needed so badly. What I’d lost that I still hadn’t come to face in myself.
I said this was a big one. It is. I’m not giving specifics, because I’m still working around it, trying to get it to gel. But I found it in writing to someone else here on LoveFraud. I started speaking from a part of myself that was so well-formed, such a system with its own experiences and beliefs and concrete reality, that I walked away from the computer that night as shocked as if I’d met a time-travelling version of myself on the street.
It’s not that this came out of nowhere. There have been a lot of harbingers. When something is about to surface, there usually are. Challenges that suddenly seem to have lessons inside them, but not quite within reach. Concerns about behaviors that seem to be outside of ordinary logic. A few weeks ago, I bought a half-dozen new textbooks on psychological issues and treatment, because I started to get curious about disassociation and theories of emotional structure. I’ve been edging up to this for a while.
One of the things I’ve written about here is that we are constantly cycling through this path. When we’re getting over a traumatic relationship, it’s easy to see that. We work on the big picture, and get to a certain place with that, and then some new memory pops up that throws us back into the cycle again, because there’s something new we need to learn from it. Getting to acceptance and learning with any of it is a good thing. But these relationships tend to be layered, as we are. One insight opens up something else behind it. Sometimes it’s an ah-hah moment, but often it’s something troubling, and we have to go through the whole process of releasing resistance again so we can get to know it, and learn another part of ourselves or another piece of reality about the world.
I know that I’ve written lately about the inadequacy of children to fully process through trauma in the way that an adult can. Our brains are not fully developed, and we don’t have the capacity for perspectives that go beyond primitive need. It’s one of the reasons that caring nurture and a safe environment are so crucial to personality development in our early years. And why it can be so difficult to even imagine being different when we’re older.
It’s one of the reasons that I write here. To open your minds to the possibly of deep recovery, and to draw a map, as best I can, of a path. My objective is to give you confidence that wherever you are on this path has meaning in terms of opening the way to who you are really meant to be.
I am not afraid of this. I’m grateful. Grateful that whatever inner wisdom is at the center of me decided that I was ready for this. Hopeful that this means that I will ultimately be that much closer to the ability to love as I’d like to love. Because that is what this is really about. Love and its meaning in my life.
There will be anger. There will be tears. I sometimes wonder if recovery is not a kind of progression of emotional rooms, that is also a kind of pathway up from the most primitive survival-level processing in our brains, or perhaps the most child-like thinking, up through the part of our brains that are most open and connected the world around us, and also the most able to hold on to and make sense of the wisdom of all the other levels. I sometimes feel like a pilgrim, making a journey through all the layers of myself, carrying this thing that I’m trying to understand and make peace with.
I know you love me. Our gratitude for each other is one of the things that lights up this place. And I hear you worrying about me. But think about this: I am not worried. I know where I’m going, though I don’t know all the adventures I’m going to have getting there. I know that I’m made to get there, no matter how dark some of those rooms may seem or how hard I have to work to learn my way out them. The only thing that could possibly stop me is despair, giving up. And I’m not worried about it. I’ve been there too, and I know that sometimes giving up on ever having a good idea again is necessary to free us.
I know I can’t tell you not to be afraid. But I can tell you that you don’t have to be. It’s one of the main things we learn from all this. It’s fear that makes it scary. Reality is what it is. And we’re built to survive until we don’t. Most of us are going to live a long, long time. And even if we weren’t, the next day or the next five minutes are going to be a lot better if we recognize that our fear is just part of our survival mechanism, something to take seriously if we need to do something to take care of ourselves, but otherwise just one of the may layers of consciousness. It’s one the caring voices inside of us, but there are more fun places to hang out.
Love –
Kathy
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Oh fear.
That’s what I’m running from. I guess I do need to go hang out there, and see what’s going on.
Thanks Polly.
Another brilliant therapist on the site.
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slimone says:
Kathy,
When do you have time to grocery shop?! It would take me days to even think up some of the stuff you write, let alone write it. And then there is the reading and the comtemplation. I do love your generosity of sharing, and your brillance…..and though I feel I generally have little to offer you by way of new ideas, I am, along with all the other’s here, buoying you with my love as you journey along.
Slim
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hey Miss Hawk –
Glad to hear your tirggered/ once again willing/ having space to be out and about one has gifts for you. I hope the two of you spend some deep time with one another.
Layer after layer of beliefs and behaviors, supports and reasons have been pealed away through your attention – and thankfully, it is possible to come to the stem cell – and vibrating it with love, change it.
I am glad you get to hang with each other. We have so much to share and understand about/with our bits.
all the best for the journey, for the ride,
one step
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hens says:
lightsaber – the best one liner reply to a spath is ‘ you don’t say’
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autisticsouls says:
Kathy in thinking of the rising rate of autism.
1990: 1 in 10,000
2000: 1 in 500
2007: 1 in 150
today: 1 in 91
Basically i have to consider it would be responsible to assist in paving the way for the next generation of autistics that will soon become adults, or to consider selfish self preservative, i can just leave it for someone else to do and i myself just hide in an autistic friendly environment only.
but then considering at this rate it’s looks like it’s just a matter of time that every family will be affected by some form of autism in the very near future, so i guess the sooner people get used to seeing me in the workplace the better.
And remaining in an autistic or autistic friendly setting isn’t realistic since according to Martha Stout, sociopaths numbers are far more impressive than ours, 1 in 25. so avoiding them just doesn’t seem realistic. it seems like everyone will meet some form of sociopath in their life. so they still outnumber us auties. But we are catching up.
So i am leaning on going back to work. Although it is a fear thing for me too and that just might win out too.. Mike
http://www.findingdulcinea.com.....-Says.html
http://www.autismspeaks.org/pr....._in_91.php
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autisticsouls says:
One Step wrote: “…Layer after layer of beliefs and behaviors, supports and reasons have been pealed away through your attention…”
this reminds me of a book i read some time ago.: “The Dimensional Structure of Consciousness: A Physical Basis for Immaterialism, and some others along the line in a way to find words explaining my dream worlds.
that whole layering concept is what i’m writing about in a sci fi fiction book.
the main characters separate themselves from the Source and fragment themselves into different levels of organic and incorporeal selves and then visit or create different worlds and realities and multiverses sort of like time travelers only they are multi verse travelors. but when the characters visit different worlds and realities which is like layers of themselves in different settings which is basically all the same place only they don’t always realize it because it’s like visiting the quantum universe and the cosmos, and internal universes, virtual universes and physical universes which is expanding because of their imagination and they can easily too often tend to lose track of themselves and their somewheres and their whens.
well hopefully i’ll write it where readers will be able to conceptualize it.
Mike
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one_step_at_a_time says:
autisticsouls:
please, what is a ‘quantum universe’;
WHY are they visiting different worlds;
how/ why have they separated themselves from the source;
‘they separate themselves from the source – is this consciously done, a positive choice, or a reaction to _______?.
I understand that the exponential multiplication of imaginative potential/ possibilities could lead to losing track of ‘themselves and their somewheres and their whens. ‘ That one would become less ‘tehtered the further one got from the ‘source’. Are there other outcomes possible?
Could the creativity not lead them to finding a way to track the selves/ somewheres and whens instead of infinitely expanding the same scenario?
Could the universe/ their understanding of their internal worlds expand in such a way that a shining dynamic and accurate knowledge (a matrix) of exactly where/ when/ what they are in and who they are in it, all times and directions, is what arises in the expansive universe model? I suppose that might be a type of evolution. And what would cause/ trigger that evolution?
…and how about just rejoining the source?
one step
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one_step_at_a_time says:
autisticsouls:
The 16th Karmapa (head) of the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism was reported to have laughed aloud, with no apparent provocation.
When questioned as to why he laughed, his answer was thus:
‘one of my other emanations has rather comically tripped down the stairs.’
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