French to introduce law banning psychological abuse
PDF Those of us who have been psychologically abused by sociopaths—whether we’re male or female, and whether the abuser is male or female—know that the abuse should be criminal. It appears that in France, it just may happen.
A Lovefraud reader sent me a link to an interesting story in Time Magazine. Legislators from France’s ruling party are expected to introduce a bill that would outlaw “conjugal abuse of a psychological nature” in both married and unmarried relationships.
According to Time,
The legislation seeks to target the verbal and mental denigration, humiliation and manipulation that typically lead to physical abuse. The hope is that the bill will help prevent the emotional wounds that words often cause before a punch is ever thrown.
I hope the law gets passed. I hope it works. We’ll have to see what happens.
Read the article on Time.com:
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
lightsaber says:
I totally agree with you midlife. There needs to be more exposure of the garden variety snakes that eat up everyday people. One of my long term goals is to make a video (perhaps more than one) about this exact thing and post it on Youtube. The more the word gets out to people, the less power these vipers will have.
I think the book you read is a different book. It sounds really good as well. I know I’m definitely an introvert. I think almost anyone, introvert or extrovert can be had given the right circumstances.
one step – ahhh silk scarves! ok haha
That’s very cool the way you saw me as gathering colored light. I like that and I do kind of do that
good night ((hug))
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Nicolaid says:
Hello Mike,
I don’t think I am an aspie. I took an online self-report out of curiosity, after reading your comment, and the result suggested I was « likely neurotypical ». But I possibly bear some resemblance with the syndrome, I don’t know.
Hello Sabrina
I could easily have written just what you want to read. No doubt you’d have found me sensitive, well-informed, rational, honest and quite charming.
Have you read Cleckley ? Have you noticed the following entry in the index ?
Devotion of women for psychopaths, 180-182,
196, 197-198, 444
I will follow your advice and won’t comment anymore.
I wish you the best
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autisticsouls says:
deleted
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autisticsouls says:
Hey One Step, could be a glitch maybe. Some of my posts go on moderation first before posting.
Mike
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autisticsouls says:
autisticsouls says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Hello Nicolaid,
Those online AQ tests aren’t very accurate, except to determine ‘a type’ of Aspie, mostly the stereotype of Aspie, the geeky type. Most of our Aspies wouldn’t be Aspies on those tests alone. we have a severe Aspie who seems more autistic than anything and preserved speech seems all that puts him in the Asperger category.
Honest critical exploration, and analytical thought is one common aspect of many with Asperger Syndrome which was why I asked. Also some of our intense and complex (but not aspie) gifted kids carry that trait as well. Some of our kids do seem coldly insensitve and detached in their explorations and dialogues on a subject, while some others carry their hearts on their sleeves.
We just got a website going that the kids got started up, if you’d like to take a look. It’s really new though, but they’ve got some good links in there for now. We started out very Waldorfy, so many of our kids have been communing with nature and learning hands on skills, like soap making and pottery, glass making, horse back riding, and stuff like poetry on the beach, philosophy talks in the park, as a regular school day before we exposed them to much technology, so we are way behind on some things.: http://autisticdimensions.webs.com/
This site also has great links, since most of ours are child centered: http://talentdevelop.com/
We belong to a learning collaborative and am now in indecision whether to devote my time here with the kids, which will be for FAR less money than what I have become accustomed to. How I am going to make the mortgage will become a real issue if I stay here instead.
Thankfully I have a wife and child who wouldn’t notice or care if we live in a trailer or mansion, or whether i have to bike to work or have a car to drive.
But the investment in our children seems to be more of a pertinent mission these days. It’s a question of doing what I love to do and survive on very little money or tolerate the other because it pays for things I need and want with a little extra on the side.
I am also tired of the mindgames in the workplace and with a psychopathic co-worker who has me in his target zone. he pretty much told me “..to get with the program..” and “…not get in his way, that I’ll be sorry if i f*&k with him…”
Now I’m not going to ignore issues, or chose to pretend I don’t know what he is doing. If I return there it’s not possible it would be under any passive compliance, even though that would mean an all out war between us which I am not at all confident that I will win, more likely I see that it’s likely it will not end until he has seen to it that I have a nervous breakdown or whatever else he has planned for me.
So I am spending time with the kids right now until the matter resolves itself out. For now contributing to the kids childhood and their learning experience has it’s rewards.
Have you looked into Dabrowski’s theory of overexcitabilities? http://talentdevelop.com/Dabrowski.html
Or Aron’s Highly Sensitive People? I have noticed that one type of personality (psychopathic) does seem to single out and target another type of personality (Individuals prone to higher sensitivities) http://www.hsperson.com/index.html
MIke
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autisticsouls says:
Lightsaber says:
“…I think part of the problem is – and this is something I touched on but didn’t get into much – the MEDIA.
….that there is a glaring misconception and perceptual distortion in the general public of WHAT psychopaths REALLY are like. This misconception comes from what we read and watch…”
As a parent, and caregiver to others with children,(autistics and HSP kids) that would likely grow up to meet the target list of many psychopaths, I am at a loss of how to protect our kids from them or how to bring awareness to them of predators like these, with not enough ‘everyday’ media examples to show them. they all know about ‘strangers’ approaching them, and ‘bad touching’ and all of that, but the subtle predators that can infiltrate without notice is a real issue that I am concerned about the lack of awareness of.
Mike
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Ms Smith: You and your intrinsic protective nature rock!
best,
one step
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JaneSmith says:
Big smooch! Muah!
Still reading and caring over here in frozen land Northwest Pacific area. Stupid winter. Hurry up Spring, dadburnit!…haha.
Love you folks. Always and forever.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hens – you’re early tonight!
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hens says:
Onestep – I had to give Jane a smile – cause she always gives me one. I have been thinkin Nicolaid would bring her out of hiding. I knew she could respond in an appropriate but to the point way. He does seem like a smart feller but unless one has been run over by what he seems to be expert about he dont know nuttin, just a bunch of words…
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hens – its fortifying to know there are layers and layers of us protecting this space.
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autisticsouls says:
One thing that struck me about this post was that we also have a unresolved murder in our family, where the suspect has (we feel) another victim in his charge who we feel knows what happened and for some reason is defending him. We have wondered why she is defending him still, is she afraid? How much did she actually help him out? Why won’t she come forward? She is very brainwashed and very broken herself we know this much.
My wife’s aunt took a stand and said, “Enough is Enough!” she was reclaiming her life after so many years being under his thumb. She was very optimistic about starting her life over. About being free of him, even advising the other victim to break free from his hold. She got killed soon after.
We even had a segment on Channel 7′s Out for Justice: Noemi Custodio
http://www.wsvn.com/features/a.....?autoStart
It was pretty much an all out appeal for her (his other victim) to come forward, she is his alibi, but from what we know of her she is but another one of his victims’ and has not come forward maybe out of fear, or whatever else… She is not like him, and we are trying to understand why she will continue to cover up for him. It is an open case still, she was my wife’s aunt and and one of her primary caregivers, and the world to her children and special needs grandchildren. So when Nicolaid said:
“…Feeling empathy or even tolerance for the psychopath is showing callous disregard for those who are on the receiving end…”
I thought of my wife’s aunt and how she broke out from his spell, but his ‘other victim’ did not, and because of her complete devotion and dedication to him, he is still walking free today after taking the life of a valued member of our family. We like to know why. why someone not like him could be so enveloped into him that even murder won’t shake her out of it.
Remember what is known in the mainstream media is what we think IS unless otherwise directed or investigated into. I, myself knew nothing about subtler psychopath’s, like workplace psychopath’s, and other bullies, until just recently.
I seek to understand, like Nicolaid seemed to want to understand who came here by what he experienced and seemed to be looking for more information to understand the whys of things. There isn’t much ‘out there’ in awareness.
Sometimes there are people who will come to seek information here, since there is really isn’t much anywhere else and some of them aren’t going to come here to hold hands while they try to make sense of things or understand what happened. We still have an unresolved murder, we still are afraid to send our kids to public school, we want to understand more about why it is this is still happening with little awareness or information out there, and why some people allow it and what we can do to stop this sort of thing from continuing on.
Why is there not enough information out there media-wise preparing folks for this sort of thing? The extreme cases down to the subtler cases. Sometimes it’s difficult to dissemate information or disscuss things without feeling like walking on egg shells afraid to say the wrong thing around here.
Mike
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autisticsouls says:
No, not so safe here really, not unless you agree with everyone else, not if you are not adequately informed of the latest research that makes about 90% or more of our current population which in turn will also not be so safe here. And don’t even anyone come around asking questions with preconceived notions of what a psychopath is or does based on what the media tells us and the books we may have read on the subject because then it’s an automatic personal attack. Not if being honest is also construed as a personal attack. people don’t want honesty, they to want to be lied to.
Although LF comes up second or third on a Google search of “Workplace Sociopaths”, I’ve been warned that unless one has been intimately involved with one, one really does not belong here. Anyone with preconceived notions fed by the media of what a psychopath is and does will also instead of being educated here will likely be pounced upon and character attacked instead. And it seems completely acceptable to do that here. I don’t like anyone being bullied who did not deserve to have been. I hate to see anyone unjustly treated in a manner they did not deserve.
I think over 90% of the population has a stereotype in mind of what they assume what a psychopathic experience is, so instead of educating them I guess they should all be mobbed or why not just crucify them all for not knowing or understanding what the actual reality of what a ‘romantic’ psychopathic experience can be?
This really bugged me a lot. I have heard from others that they have been attacked and jumped here when they were looking for information for their issues but because it was not the same experience as others they had no where else to go for support. If they warned me about this not being a good place for support, why did my wife even bother to sign us up here? I told her I didn’t belong here. It’s obvious I’m not wanted here either. Somewhere along the way I have overstayed my welcome here, even before I witness an online thrashing.
I’ve been told by others that this is a: “people who only have slept with a psychopath ONLY” online support group and anyone with any other non romantic issues or experiences with psychopaths would not only, not have much to relate to, but will also be made to feel VERY unwelcome here. I realize the truth in that now.
There is little mention of corporate psychopaths, workplace bullies, everyday schemers, and other psychopaths that prey on society out there. This is a small effort, and it’s a noble effort, but this is a strictly: “Those who have had psychopathic lovers only” arena, Hence, the name LoveFraud. I guess what would anyone not having had the same experience be doing here anyhow?
My friend told me a psychopathic victim, is a psychopathic victim, we’ve all been burned by them, we’ve all suffered in their hands, many who are not just romantically involved with them have just as much been destroyed by them, but she’s visited this site before and told me there is no solidarity here. Other ‘types’ of psychopathic victims should go somewhere else or risk further emotional pain here on LF.
That there isn’t much to do here when it’s so very cliquey and you don’t belong to the same club.
And teachers have learned to suffer alone. Here in Florida psychopaths rule the public school system, teachers are bullied, parents are bullied, children are abused, and although it’s really bad in Florida it looks like a nationwide epidemic.
One teacher who questioned a psychopathic administrator was forced to quit a year AFTER she was named Teacher of the Year.
Another one was doing her job ensuring that students were receiving the proper funding, she was ostracized and bullied for it, she had to transfer out to another district where her history followed and the psychopathic administrators there played out the same abuse. Some school administrators like to ‘play’ with funding and even though it was her job to look through things she was singled out and emotionally tortured for doing her job.
One teacher felt that teaching would be her life, got out of school looking forward to start. She transferred out of state here with high hopes ‘of making a difference’. But the injustices were too much for her to witness, or ignore, when she questioned them she was then targeted. She was laid off from work and could not be rehired, she could not sell her house, or pay her student loans, or do what she came here to do, which was to teach. After foreclosure she became severely depressed and suicidal. All she ever wanted to do was to teach.
One teacher after years of devotion to her students, who had wanted to be a teacher since she was a child, was bullied until she suffered a nervous breakdown, her crime for being targeted was recommending that a child needed speech therapy during an IEP meeting. She is now a dog groomer.
Parents who were immigrants, ended up having their severely autistic child placed into ESOL instead of ESE, by the school team recommendation, prompted by psychopathic administrators and bullied teachers too afraid to say anything sitting in the meeting frozen, eyes staring on the floor not looking at the parents who were pleading at them to say something. The mother didn’t understand how her speaking another language at home had caused her son’s autism.
School Administrators in Due Process hearings routinely force teachers and aides to lie in court or suffer the consequences. One Special Ed teacher was coerced into agreeing to lie in court, when she was unable to, she ended up not only having to leave her job but starting anew in another state as no one else would take her here.
Some aides came forward and testified in court against a Special Ed Veteran Teacher who was physically and verbally abusing her special needs children by pushing them, and kicking them, dragging them around and hitting them routinely. The teacher returned to work after a mere suspension, the aides who have come forward have all lost their jobs, or have been made to quit.
We have had school board members under investigation by the FBI and some arrests have been made. The school district is arrogant and belligerent in their response to the federal investigation. School officials have prompted school employees not to discuss things or to cooperate with the federal investigation.
Other school employees stay quiet and look away to avoid being targeted next. They have mortgages, families, health insurance. They know when to look away. They avoid becoming targets, and turn their heads away in shame when another teacher is targeted. Thankful that today it isn’t them.
Psychopaths in the school system don’t work alone, they are organized. They have free reign to do as they please, and take special joy and humor in the destruction of the careers of one of their targets. It’s like a special psychopathic blood bath when they get together and they decide to destroy someone’s career, they ensure others do not move ahead, and reward their lapdogs. Some have laughed if they can get the individual to break down, some even have made bets on it.
We had psychologist advocate for students from the CARD center uneasy by what he stated was the amount of psychopaths in the public schools. The Psychologists and advocates from the public center weren’t allowed on the school grounds. Their recommendations were ignored. Parents, helpless as the center tells them they are helpless in defending their children or them from the schools. That word stuck on me, “…our schools are run and controlled by ‘Psychopaths’…”
I did not understand why so many school employees would protect, stand by, or defend the psychopathic administrator or whoever else it was. Their fear and passive complacency was damaging us all. One teacher stated that she has kids, health insurance a mortgage. She simply couldn’t risk it.
The comment made by Nicolaid before he was made to shut up and was told to not post anymore on LF, struck home to me, and others here victimized by psychopaths in an entire different arena, “…Feeling empathy or even tolerance for the psychopath is showing callous disregard for those who are on the receiving end…”
I think when it is an intimate relationship it’s easy to view it as simply something only happening to oneself. In other arenas such as in the workplace or in the school system, tolerance for the psychopath is being a passive contributor to someone else’s abuse and is “…a callous disregard for others on the receiving end…” And I think it took another victim of workforce psychopath to really understand what he was saying.
Love victims seem to only see what has happened to themselves, they seem too caught up in their own pain to see anything else outside of themselves. Just not seemingly able to see the damage done outside of themselves. Like only their pain and suffering is valid. Many others will disagree. they suffered just as bad even if they didn’t sleep with a psychopath.
Like a local woman here who suffered abuse for years but wouldn’t pull herself together in time to protect her children, so that no matter what she says now, her kids still consider her a passive contributor to their abuse.
Other psychopathic victims (not romantically involved) do seem to see the psychopath’s handiwork in themselves and others. Take any school teacher here in Florida, unless they are a lapdog, they know the full scale of psychopaths carnage.
But why am I even bothering? What are ‘we’ doing here anyhow? This isn’t a “victims of psychopaths” forum, it’s a “victim lovers of psychopaths only” forum.
But although my friends have told me to not bother, that this isn’t even worth wasting our time here. It just needs to be said.
Like Nicolaid, we as a family also read have also read Hervey Cleckley, the Mask of Sanity specifically in regards to as the basis of what Nicolaid was assessing and basing what he knew on: Devotion of women for psychopaths, 180-182, 196, 197-198, 444
We’ve also all read it. Numerous times, many times until we can repeat it verbatim, in attempting to understand why the ‘other victim’ of my aunt’s wife’s murderer still defended him to the point of possibly being an accomplice to murder. We read it over and over in an attempt to understand her complete devotion and dedication to him. She is the only reason he is still walking free today after taking the life of a mother and grandmother, a very pertinent member of our family. We’ve all been robbed, because she is dead. No second chances here. No starting her life over after all. She was murdered. And we wanted to understand why? Why someone not like him could be so enveloped into him that even murder won’t shake her out of it.
We even had a segment on Channel 7’s Out for Justice: Noemi Custodio
http://www.wsvn.com/features/a…..?autoStart
But you know although the guidelines for comments included that animated discussions of different points of view to be healthy and respected I really don’t see that happening without folks getting chased out of here. Nor did I see that this is a place where one can adequately learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, because animated disscussions and different points of views are simply not allowed, it’s more of just a venting place, but any other types of inquiry or explorations seems not to be much acknowledged, or respected or even tolerated.
Some of the other teachers stated although they are dealing with psychopaths daily but this isn’t a healthy place to go to ask questions or for any type of support unless you are romantically involved in one. And I guess I realize that very well now.
White Chalk Crimes: http://www.whitechalkcrime.com/php/Comments.html
Organized Stages of Teacher Abuse: http://www.endteacherabuse.org/stages.html
Public School Administrators bully parents:
http://www.alongthespectrum.com/2007/07/bullying/
Teachers union says Broward officials blocked e-mails
http://www.miamiherald.com/137.....=mirelated
Principal Accused Of Sexual Harassment Reassigned: http://cbs4.com/topstories/dee.....02674.html
Cluster of corruption cases may widen, some say:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/fl.....5624.story
Broward schools ethics panel vows action on public’s complaints:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne.....0689.story
School Corruption: Betrayal of Children and the Public Trust
http://www.amazon.com/School-C.....0595365574
Stopping School Corruption:
http://www.keepeanesinformed.c.....0Study.pdf
Broward County School corruption: http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne.....0912.story
Broward School Board member fails to disclose husband’s role in $500,000 fee break:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne.....3144.story
PARENT GROUP FILES CIVIL RIGHTS COMPLAINTS AGAINST 64 FLORIDA SCHOOL DISTRICTS: http://m.naplesnews.com/news/2.....inst-64-f/
What’s Fueling the Redirection of Special Education Funds:
http://edmoney.newamerica.net/.....unds-26213
Ethics panel set for first public hearing on school district:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/ne.....4300.story
End Teacher Abuse: http://www.endteacherabuse.org
Mike
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learnthelesson says:
The name of this site is “LOVEFRAUD”…while I have met many here who also had experiences with psychopaths, narcissists, personality disordered individuals, etc. that were platonic (business dealings, family members, friends,co-workers) and they were all received and very welcomed here…I would say the name of the site speaks for itself. Putting ALL the blame on the victim is, however, not welcomed here and I hope will always be addressed.
Autisticsouls said
“Nor did I see that this is a place where one can adequately learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, because animated disscussions and different points of views are simply not allowed, it’s more of just a venting place, but any other types of inquiry or explorations seems not to be much acknowledged, or respected or even tolerated.”
I respectfully disagree, as evidenced in the archives of a wide range of articles topics posts and discussions since Lovefrauds inception.
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learnthelesson says:
Mike,
Im sorry for your loss and your families loss. Its a terrible tragedy. Nobodys life should be taken away ever.
Im a homemaker without a medical degree, but my instinct tells me that the answer to your question about the woman involved with a psychopathic murderer is simple. She is not well. She is unhealthy herself. She is imbalanced. There could be numerous reasons from chemical imbalance to an addiction to him to a history of dysfunctional upbringing to brainwashing to even personal choice as well as an array of possible psychiatric conditions according to scientific and or medical opinions. The answer lies within HER and HER only.
Debating , discussing the answer is a different story tho.
Again, this is my opinion only. Im sure there are many, many different opinions on the topic. As there always are many open diverse respectful and protective opinions here at LF.
Thank you for sharing yours.
LTL
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I think this is one of those aftershocks of a visitation either by a sociopath or someone who is not here to work on personal healing. Nicolaid’s comments were very provacative (euphemism for being likely to trigger people who were healing from personal relationships with sociopaths).
Yes, LoveFraud is an educational site. But the reason that most of us are here is to work on our personal healing from these relationships. Learning about sociopaths is part of that process. So is responding to a threat to the safety of this space.
autisticsouls, please forgive me for the comments I’m about to make, but I need to explain you a bit. Mike is autistic, and he is highly rational, but his perceptiveness is different than ours. He explained himself (and his wife gave us more information in her earlier posts under the same name). So unless he’s directly attacked, he’s unlikely to be triggered by a new visitor, like some of us are. And if the visitor arrives making generalizations, however unfeeling we may find them, Mike is more like to debate facts. As some of you may remember, this is what he did with a previous visitor who was making some equally provocative pronouncements.
Mike, we do vent, but it’s not “just venting.” People here are going through an emotional process of healing. That venting serves a purpose in the sharing of experiences, getting validation for our own realities (which are pretty shaky at the beginning), and moving through the process of recovering our ability to trust and take care of ourselves.
Workplace engagements with sociopaths belong here as much as any other long-term involvement. The damage is the same, the psychic destablization (traumatic response) is the same.
But you’re right, this is probably not a forum for debate. Largely because it is so personal. And people are really raw. We have disagreements, but they tend to be handled very carefully. And if they’re not, if we are too blunt with each other, the person we’re dealing with may “hear” it through their wounds, rather than with an objective perspective, and be wounded again.
I realize this doesn’t address all your issues, or provide solutions for them. But I hope it does reassure you that there’s nothing personal going on, not toward you. Unless you start making general criticisms of what goes on here, and then, of course, you’re going to deal with people who disagree or take your criticisms personally.
If you want to work on your feelings about being victimized, and figure out how not to be victimized again, this is agreat place to do that.
Kathy
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learnthelesson says:
Thank you Kathy for explaining how perceptiveness may differ amongst us.
Mike – I actually appreciated your comments – everyone here is entitled to their own opinion – I especially appreciated your insights and opinions with regard to the educational system in this country.
I did not take your opinions and criticisms personally, I just really do believe this site welcomes and discusses so many different types of involvement and interactions with a sociopath on many different levels and in many different roles in society.
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ErinBrock says:
Sometimes it’s best to say nothing……..
Sorry for my deeelllleeete!
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learnthelesson says:
It was straightforward, respectful and heartfelt .
Tried to sleep.. going to try a cup of chamomile tea…think the impending snow storm potentially keeping us housebound all weekend has me in a tizzy!!! Gotta find more boardgames to play
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ErinBrock says:
We are in for the same sorta weekend…..but the kids will be gone….just me and OMGolly Holly girl and the snowblower!
Is ‘quarters’ a boardgame……
Sleep tight!
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ErinBrock says:
LTL:
THANK YOU!
Hey….I already now your gonna post that I have a unique sense of humor and your gonna go count sheep…..
I’m a mindreader….you watch….
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learnthelesson says:
ok..ok… off to count sheep, stars or read a book
ttfn
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learnthelesson says:
EB – I already know your gonna tell me your Gfathers nickname..
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ErinBrock says:
You just reminded me of what my G.fathers name for me was…
His little FIREFLY……
The firefly may have stuck….but the ‘little’ part didn’t!
nighty night darlen!
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learnthelesson says:
EEEEEEEBBBBBBBBBBB –
ROTFLMAO….Laughing so hard, its making me exhausted!!!! Thank you!
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ErinBrock says:
.
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geminigirl says:
CHAMOMILE TEA,
CHAMOMILE TEA,
CHAMOMILE TEA,
MAKES ME PEE,
HAVE TO GET UP AT NIGHT
TO DO A WEE.
THATS ALL I KNOW ABOUT
CHAMOMILE TEA!!
{PLUS IT TASTED LIKE HORSES WEE!!}
LOVE,GEM!!
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learnthelesson says:
Gem
I personally never tasted horses wee —
but you sound like my daughter who refuses to try tea because of the taste and smell.
Chamomile tea (with whipped cream ontop) seems to be just for me
with or without it Im still up at night to pee
ps. Starbucks has a zesty purple passion tea – if only they were open at 2am!!
Love, Me
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Donna Andersen says:
I think some background needs to be supplied regarding Nicolaid. He sent me an e-mail before ever posting on Lovefraud. The e-mail was about a famous French con man by the name of Christophe Rocancourt. This guy claimed to be a member of the Rockefeller family and came to the U.S. He was able to convince many wealthy people, from Los Angeles to the Hamptons, to part with their money. Millions of dollars. The guy was slick. Very, very slick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Rocancourt
I knew about the case. It was written up in Vanity Fair magazine back in 2000. Rocancourt was arrested and sentenced to 5 years in jail in the U.S.
Nicolaid told me what happened next. Rocancourt got out of jail, returned to France, and then did a tour of French TV talk shows, boasting about his exploits. After this, a French filmmaker named Catherine Brelliat, knowing Rocancourt was a con artist, fell in love with him. And, model Naomi Campbell brought Rocancourt as her date to the Cannes Film Festival.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvs.....annes.html
You have to wonder, what were these women thinking?
Well, in July 2009, Breillat accused Rocancourt of scamming her out of 850,000 Euros. Hello? Why is she surprised?
Anyway, given what Nicolaid has observed, I can understand his questions.
Further, please remember Nicolaid’s first statement, “I am French.” That means English was not his first language. His English was excellent, but as those of us who have studied foreign languages know, unless we grew up bilingual, second languages may sound a bit stilted. If Nicolaid was writing in French, perhaps his comments would have been more emotive.
Yes, Nicolaid may not have a good understanding of what it is like to be emotionally devastated by a sociopath. Several Lovefraud readers brought this to his attention in constructive ways. But other posters crossed the line into attack mode, which I feel was unwarranted.
There is no requirement at Lovefraud that new bloggers need to tell their stories before they can comment and ask questions. Some people may not be victims of romantic deception, but may have experienced sociopaths under other circumstances. Some people may just have questions. All should be treated with respect.
The people who are here to start trouble tend to show themselves pretty quickly. But let’s not assume that everyone who writes in an analytical style, or who may be uninformed, is a problem.
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learnthelesson says:
In my opinion, Catherine Brelliat was conned. Got conned. Became conned. So many MEN and WOMEN DO….NOT JUST WOMEN. Men and women find themselves believing it wont happen to them or simply have never been exposed to the makings and unraveling and deceitfulness of a psychopath until they are caught up in their web….romantically, business wise, family, ANY LIFE SCENARIO.
Even Nicolaid stated that he has been suffering ever since his experience with the psychopath in his life. His own word “suffering”…
In my opinion, think there needs to be a book about why men love Psychopaths too because they do! (female and male for that matter)….because they come in all shapes sizes sex nationality young old etc…as do their victims (and/or ones like Catherine Brelliat who willingly or unsuspectingly become involved with these individuals believing it wont happen to them – or they are up for the challenge -because they are equally unhealthy in a much different way on the spectrum. Also the real lesson is – its not just love relationships its all types of relationships.. both men and women find themselves in these challenging relationships with personality disorders and differences across the board. Not just romantically.
I agree people with questions ( as well as people responding) should both give thoughtfulness and respect to EACHOTHER when posing their questions/responses.
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autisticsouls says:
Learnthelesson says: Putting ALL the blame on the victim is, however, not welcomed here and I hope will always be addressed.
No. there is a distinct difference between putting ALL the blame on the victim, and making aware that some responsibility should be noted.
(I’m here with four others)
As individuals who work within the public school system way too many of us have seen children affected, children damaged by their psychopathic parent(s). Sometimes way too many times we are helpless to do anything, theres no bruises to report, nothing really concrete to actually have to call CPS about but enough to know the child(ren) is(are) being damaged. We are with them all day, day in and out, we see and can do nothing but wait until the victimized parents decide enough is enough for her, but by then, too often the children have lost their childhood.
We’ve seen way too many parents, way too many to count, not willing to share their responsibility in many things that have occurred that contributed to the loss of security and childhood in our students. And we are just told to shut up and mind our own business if we are not there to hold that parents hand.
Our responsibility though is to the kids. We are lossing our kids in record numbers and there is little we can do to stop it but watch the devastation unfold.
Right at this moment we have six kids just this Tuesday taken into social services and we are all here absolutely devastated. The abused parent has asked for understanding and compassion but it isn’t likely she’ll get it from us (the other four here) I (Mike) did direct her here to LF.
We are on the other side of the shoe. We deal with children, who needed that other victimized parent to step up and protect them, and many times, way too many times they simply had not. And we watch helpless while way too many parents cry victim, but do little to nothing to take responsibility to protect their children.
I (Mike) am actually wanting to understand these parents more. Other schoolteachers seem to hate (Amee , K and Daisy states hate is to strong a word, Mary states it fits) these parents nearly as much as the offending parent.
Too many of my peers hold no pity for the victimized parent, their allegiance is to the child only. They see that parent only as contributer to their students abuse by doing nothing, or not acting soon enough.
Fewer numbers of us seek to salvage the remnants of the family (Mike and Amee). Children need some sort of family. That’s not including the number of teachers who don’t give a damn altogether. But for those who do care many teachers who are for the child do regard many victimized parents in a negative light.
To be fair most of them do not wish to place ALL the blame on the other victimized parent, many of them simply wished they took more responisibility for the choices they made.
And as such, they do and have come to this site, (it’s a public site and it does come up under workplace sociopaths, in almost always the first three lines) and they do peruse the articles, as one here is stating: ” I take what I need, I eat the chicken and spit out the bones”, but as a psychopath abused teacher (not romantically) linked, she does not post here. Nor would you want her to, she states.
Now what Nicolaid was posting was something along the lines of what way too many folks outside of this arena do think along the lines of. (Mary states, but he did so in a more gentler form than many would have stated) In fact we were interested in that dialogue since many of us here ‘did’ think along his train of thought at one point, and others still do. Explaining things to him was explaining things to ‘the rest of us’.
(Also there was a school OT, and three other teachers who were right here along with me interested in that dialogue. Our OT and another special needs teacher was actually recognizing a trait in him that we see in our kids. I was thinking Asperger, but Amee and Mary was thinking more complex gifted range…)
I’m generalizing because I, myself want to understand more. Mary could care less, Amee, K and Daisy are open.
Amee says the issue of our problems of not meeting on common ground, although we are all psychopath victims is due to the fact that using our public school system as a scenario, we associate ourselves as the children, the psychopathic administrators are the offending psychopathic parent, and the other abused parent is the school employees who watch and do nothing which may be why many may be unwilling to relate as much as many fail to see them as just another victim. Mary refers these school employees as ‘Sleeping with the Devil’
I want some insight to those who have ‘slept with the Devil’ in reality or metaphorically. Because we are all dealing with these issues. Pyschopaths have infiltrated every area of society, not just our beds.
But the others here will not post, because if there was a problem with Nicolaid posts, there will definetely be issues with anything the others here will post about, their thoughts or their questions will definetely be an issue. Mary states she would likely be tossed out on her first posting.
I still feel that the psychopath is a great problem in society and working together is the only way to defeat them, hopefully we can manage to that together someday if not here on LF.
Mike
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learnthelesson says:
I am running to pick my children up from three different schools for early dismissal for pending snowstorm…I havent read all of your post Mike. Really just the first sentence.
I look forward to reading your comments when I return. I truly do.
There was a process for me Mike – a process I went through in dealing with and healing from my dysfunctional relationship w/a S. I went through a metamorphisis of sorts – including going into a deep depression – where I willing admit the best I could do was get my children to and from school and make sure they were fed and bathed (I couldnt even do that for myself)…. my point is….FOR ME…IN MY OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE… I had to do ALOT of SOUL SEARCHING as to not only my personal demise but OWNING AND ADMITTING AND ACCEPTING my responsibility in staying in an unhealthy environment ONCE I BECAME AWARE I WAS IN REAL TROUBLE AS A HUMAN BEING IN A RELATIONSHIP UNABLE TO MAKE RATIONAL HEALTHY DECISIONS AND CHOICES.
I did not have the tools. And I did not understand how my upbringing could play a role on my choices in relationships and simply becoming involved in relationships and removing myself from a bad one..
Its a process. I am not only a victim but I am a constant self-learner, self-improver and self reclaimer. Including making a commitment to never ever lose sight of my childrens needs. My parents didnt have all the tools. I didnt have all the tools with my relationships…but Im taking the steps to stop the cycle in my family.
As a parent – it was a process I had to go through. Had I not had children, it still would be a process I had to go through. There is no quick fix. There is only awareness education therapy and a willingness for self-help and finding the answers to our questions… more later
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learnthelesson says:
ps. one of my biggest shortcomings is that I dont take the time to think through what I want to express…I am working on patience across the board in my life…this is a perfect example of how I need to mature in this area and not rush and be quick to defend or respond with my two cents on so many levels…when I am passionate about something I speak up/out… Its a fault and an attribute.
Not putting all the blame on the victims is what I said. I agree “there is a big difference in making aware that some responsibility should be noted.”
Ive noted several times my awareness and confusion as to my responsibility in my own lifes journey – up to and including relationships with others. Functional and dysfunctional. Healthy and Unhealthy. Im learning as I go…
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sabrina says:
I just received notice from Donna that my comment to Nicolaid suggesting he leave LF if he viewed this as entertainment for him, was deleted.
I dont recall my exact comments as they are gone now. But I was angry that many posters here were trying so hard to defend themselves, but to no avail with his comments.
I was truly sickened that these poor souls felt it necessary to defend their reasons for being abused by a S. I felt defensive as well.
I guess I can understand that Donna must be completely unbiased in her position here.
I just didn’t get why Nicolaid was- from MY point of view “aggitating” others in an extreme manner not characteristic, OR generally tolerated by this site- again this is my opinion.
In my view, I was not trying to offend anyone, but to point out (I thought reasonably ,but firmly) that entertaining oneself at anothers (emotional) expense is not acceptable. However, it is not my decision. I thought I was making a productive suggestion,
I am truly sorry Donna if I was out of line. I am sorry if anyone, including Nicolaid was hurt by the comment.
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blueskies says:
Sabrina. I think your post above is cool.x I think that whatever other people’s agendas may or may not be is something we cant really tell on here. I have learnt here that coming across people who trigger us is a learning experience: learning – NOT an exercise in repressing, or talking yourself out of how you actually feel and think but maybe how you react… for the beneifit of YOU sorta thing. (still working out the kinks in my learning!)
Anyway – thats my two pennith worth.:)x
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hens says:
I am very bad about opening my mouth when I should of inserted my foot…
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witsend says:
Sabrina,
How are things going for you? I hope everything is going as well as can be expected under the circumstance.
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witsend says:
hens,
and how are you doing?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi Witty, how are you today?
best,
one step
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witsend says:
autisticsouls,
Although many of the people here on LF do have the common denominator of having experienced a romantic relationship with an s/p/n, there are others here, that do come for different reasons.
I myself first came here because of my son. By the time I found LF I was really at my witsend. I had tried finding my son help in my community and wasn’t very succesful. I was very emotional and pretty “raw”.
When I was a newbie here……
Several posters posted around me, because they didn’t necessarily relate to my situation, some welcomed me, some posted directly to me that could relate to my situation, and some I think unintentionally underestimated the situation I was in. Thinking maybe I just had a case of a defiant teenager on my hands. By the time I found myself here I already knew that it was more than that. I didn’t know to the full extent what I was dealing with but I did know that it was not your average “acting out” teenager. It went alot deeper than that.
I took it all in. When I first came here. Because quite frankly, I had no place else to go. And there were a few mothers here that offered validation and their own personal stories that I could definately relate to. I have learned alot here. And much of it was learned not just from the posters that had been through exactly what I was going through, but from other personal experiences as well. Everyone here has alot to share.
I found I could relate very well to the romanic experience of being with a personality disorder because that was also my experience with my sons father.
Each of us can relate to each others storys on different levels because of our own personal experience.
The workplace, the romantic relationship, family of origin, extended family. Regardless of the relationship had with an s/p/n…..It affects us. All of us.
I hope you continue to come here. Your persective is welcome here. I have always read your post. You have alot of wisdom.
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witsend says:
One Step,
I am hangin in there….Going through a rough patch right now.
I have lots of fears and anxiety. Some really emotional stuff.
thanks for askin
How are you doing? Did you ever find out what happened to your article?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi witty – sending you my best wishes.
Rough patch here, too. Not well. the enviro sensitivities have escalated like crazy, and i am really struggling.
No, I don’t know what happened to my article. I emailed Donna on Monday, but haven’t heard anything back.
best,
one step
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learnthelesson says:
Mike says
“way too many of us have seen children affected, children damaged by their psychopathic parent(s).. ” theres no bruises to report, nothing really concrete to actually have to call CPS about but enough to know the child(ren) is(are) being damaged. We are with them all day, day in and out, we see and can do nothing but wait until the victimized parents decide enough is enough for her, but by then, too often the children have lost their childhood.”
Mike – The child you refer to above….I am that “child” all grown up. Dare I take the liberty of saying a good percentage of us here (but not all) are those children all grown up. Not only at the hands of a psychopathic parent, but perhaps a personality disordered parent, or narcissist, or mentally ill, or an alcoholic, or depressed etc..
As a result, I did not have the most responsible and present parents walking the planet. My mother was bi-polar schizophrenic. My father eventually got custody of us, but he was a workaholic and the nurturing I received primarily came from my grandmother.
How did I turn out??? Well Im doing ok, I think. Yes, after quite the journey Im doing ok. Im not an alchoholic, I dont do drugs, Im a contributing member to society and was in the workforce up until my son was diagnosed with Type 1 Diabetes. Am I perfect ? No way, no how.. Did I make bad choices with relationships in my life…sometimes no…sometimes yes. Was I particularly needy for love affection attention validation honesty in a relationship – yes. Did I lose myself in my relationship with a very toxic person in my life – YES. But not completely, something in me gave me the strength to say NO MORE – I wanted healthier situations and relationships in my life.
You said “we need our victimized parent to stand up and protect their kids as we watch to many times the parent cry victim”
Speaking for myself – I initially cried victim – and as I went through the process of self-actualization and learning self-love and self-trust and self-worth as that grown up child — I eventually took some responsibility for the choices I made after realizing I was being emotionally and mentally used and abused. Although today I believe I was terriby used abused exploited and victimized by him. What I did was lose my own grounding…as that full grown child – now adult, I lost my sense of self and direction. But boy oh boy did I ever reclaim it and find it. I did not have the tools to deal with this toxic person in my life. I couldnt stand up and protect myself and sadly barely able to do so for my own children back then. I gave love and the basics to them – but almost as if I was going through the motions –
I need to reflect more about being that child you refer to …all grown up now. And how it has affected my life. In some ways in the most unbelievably strong and resilient ways in other aspects of my life it has caused me some toxicity as I try to learn to be the best I can be to myself and in my relationships with others.
None of us are perfect. And every generation carries the burden of the previous generation(s) to a certain extent. Some much less than others – as they were afforded a more balanced childhood. Some much more than others as they were raised in severely dysfunctional situations. And there are some who genetically may be pre-disposed to all the many different personality disorders we discuss here. Nature v nurture…
I never “CHOSE” A PSYCHOPATHIC TOXIC DYSFUNCTIONAL PARTNER/LOVER TEACHER PREACHER BOSS FRIEND OR PARENT… but what I can do now is protect myself with the tools I have learned HERE AT LF…AND IN READING BOOKS.. and EDUCATING MYSELF AND LEARN AND GROW TO BE THE BEST ME I CAN BE.
Nobody could have ever gotten me to a better place – had I not wanted to. But I credit my desire to get to a better place to the ones who opened their heart and guidance and advice to me — who tried to understand me — and who let me know it was ok to be myself and go through whatever I needed to at the time. They didnt placate me and tell me things I only wanted to hear. They told me of their experiences and shed light on how they overcame “sleeping with the devil” in all areas of their life.
I just ask that you dont minimize the emotional damage that is done to the victim/adult child – when the partner you choose to have in your life – tries to control you, manipulate you, twist your mind – lies – cheats and attacks your spirit – and because some of us didnt have the tools to recognize or deal with it — we temporarily lost our way. You are very fortunate your wife is the person she is. Its not just about having someone in your bed – it was the choice of a life partner — in our life everyday, in every way. You can leave work and go home to a healthy situation. You can leave school, etc… and do the same. Many of us here had severe levels of toxicity in our lives 24/7 with a toxic, sick, psychopathic, drunk, drug addicted, emotionally and physically abusive partner. ( i def havent covered it all)
Kathy has written about the “inner child” inside of us. While it might lend insight to the victimized parent as well as the toxic parent — it really speaks volumes about ALL of us not only struggling and failing and lost but more importantly sheds light on healing our inner child and growing learning maturing on earth. And CHOOSING to do so. Not just point fingers and place blame when there is no immediate resolution or answer to the problems.
At least we all share the same common goal –the belief and feeling that the psychopath (as well as many other personality-disorders) is a great problem in society and working together is the only way to defeat them, hopefully we can manage to do that together someday especially here on LF.
Thank you Mike for your input.
ps. I dont have the answer as to how to bring awareness to the ones who need it, deserve it. Or how to protect the children. The innocent children. My goal was to start somewhere and educate the children who are in highschool/college about the red flags – and dangers of toxic people/relationships. So they have the tools – I did not have as a young adult in my 30′s.
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Donna Andersen says:
One step,
I just found 10 blog posts in the trash, and I have no idea how they got there. Yours was one of them. I have just restored the articles.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Thanks for letting me know Donna.
best,
one step
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autisticsouls says:
Oh learnthelesson, there is so much pain in your post, i keep envisioning your childhood, my overactive imagination you just take me there. i tell Mary, she’s a hard old goose, (her words in describing herself)but she means well, I tell her that the parents were children once, with unhealed injuries, and our kids today will someday grow up and how important it is to ‘save the family’ unit.
Most of all being how it is, whether it’s their personality make up or their upbringing or a mixture of both many of our kids today will be future targets for psychopaths tomorrow.
We have this over-excitabilities theory in some of our kids, they are way sensitive to things, with my autism I can turn things off easy, it’s like two different arenas. i have to access my emotional database, it’s like a conscious willful decision to do so. like reading your post i have to open up that part of me.
But these kids their hearts are on their sleeves. i get so protective of them because it’s like they have no defense mechanism.
it’s funny because with the people here in their posts i ‘see’ our kids in them sometimes. they may be adults but they can sound like our kids in so many ways it almost doesn’t matter how old they ‘actually’ are at times.
It’s comes to our theory that there are certain personalities that psychopaths will target. Some kids as they get older they change some but some of our kids if they have their heart on their sleeves they tend to keep that quality about them. Always.
like two kids, one who has given up on his dad visiting and just hardens himself up from that. He is going to be harder to access by a psychopath in the future, but the other kid who still, no matter what has happened, in spite of all logic, in spite of all evidence procured, still says something like: “Someday daddy is going to come and we are all going to live in disneyland.”
Two different kids one does not even bother to wait because he gave up on his dad already and wasn’t going to bother anymore, and the other who will still be waiting outside three hours later. that kid. that kid is the future psychpath target, that ‘still hoping for a better tomorow’ kid, that sensitive kid still ‘hanging on a dream’, that kid is our future psychopath target in relationships.
you can’t take advantage of a person who has no real hopes or dreams that things can be better. It’s those that hope and dream for something better that is still so easy to ensnare. Because they still have that childlike trust. That childlike openness to them. That will never really disappear!!!
It sucks because it’s these imaginative idealistic sensitive individuals that are the dreamers of our future and society. They are the heart of humanity. But it’s their openness that nearly kills them. point is it’s almost always ‘nearly’ kills them but i don’t beleive anything can really kill that child in you.
Children have that ability to heal faster than adults, to bounce back, to keep going. These days we are seeing an epidemic of ‘adults’ in children, but we still see just as much so ‘the child’s heart’ in children AND adults.
Mary had an experince lately that explains it so well. she met two of her former students. The boy was unrecognizable. the boy she once knew was gone forever she said. But his sister, this was what got her. 23 years old and it didn’t matter at all. The child she once knew. That child was still there. Somehow no matter how broken she seemed or what she had gone through or what had occured in her life that little girl she knew was still there.
you know how it’s so easy to pick up a new language as a kid but really hard as an adult? well we’ve gone through some conferences, but with some OE or HSP people, (most really), that childlike quality of being accessable to learn new things is still there. that childlike quality seems to not ever get lost in some folks, in some personalities.
look we have been reading posts of you guys WHICH IS PROVING THE THEORY!!!!!
Almost all of you, what you post, how you post, what you say and feel, has an utter childlike quality to it. doesn’t matter how old so many of you actually are. i think it bothers Mary most of all because she doesn’t want to see her kids in you guys. but she had to admit it’s true, there is an openness and childlike innocence and ‘dreams for a better tomorrow’ that can never be lost in some individuals no matter how old they are or what they have gone through.
The ability to learn to adapt to forge new paths are always going to be there for some people.
Some people grow up and they settle into a certain way they are going to be, or how things are, and that’s it.
But people with this childlike quality can always change because they are always going to have that ability to grow. Wanna learn new language? Just joking but that’s what I mean. That extended childhood way of experinencing the world is also a resilience factor.
It’s a double edged sword though because an adult with a child’s heart is always going to be targeted by someone who will and can prey on their hopes and dreams, ‘because’ they still have them!!!
Dabrowski’s Theory: “…Development potential
Advanced development is often seen in people who exhibit strong developmental potential (“DP”). Developmental potential represents a constellation of genetic features, expressed and mediated through environmental interaction. Many factors are incorporated in developmental potential but three major aspects are highlighted: overexcitability (OE), specific abilities and talents, and a strong drive toward autonomous growth, a feature Dąbrowski called the “third factor.”….”
Love and hugs
Mike
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hens says:
Hello Witty – Learn – I came here because of my intimate relationship with what I think was a cluster – B – Sociopath. I came here out of sheer desperation to hang on to my sanity. I was grasping for straws to survive. What I learned was much more than about him but myself and my mentally disturbed narcissict mother. I learned alot about personality disorders and how they effect people around them. Most of us come here because of being duped by a love interest but learn more than we are sometimes prepared for. I think it is a crash course in reality and survival. It has been a gut wrenching emotional experience. And the emotional compassion of others that relate and understand that kind of life lived pain have lifted me out of despair. How fortunate for other’s that they dont relate on that same level of experience.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Mike, You just posted while I was writing, And I’m not sure if what I have to say is really relevant. But it’s what I believe, and I believe it passionately, So I’m going to go ahead and post it. To a large degree it echoes what you and LTL have been discussing.
I think that the first and most important challenge is to sort out ourselves. This is not just a matter of personal healing. It is also the process of untangling ourselves from all the dysfunctional dramas that make us feel like victims, so we can see more, get more perceptive about what is going on, and understand how to penetrate what seems impenetrable when we still feel like disempowered victims.
I think this is the only hope we have to change things. Individually and together.
I realize that doesn’t sound very helpful in relationship to the information you’ve been posting about the teachers, the children, the parents, all of whom are either victims or persecutors or rescuer/caretakers. But here is the thing: damaged people don’t exist in a vacuum Damaged parents damage their children. People who feel like victims leave messes for other people to clean up, because they are not able to handle responsibilities. A festival of blaming occurs because making other people bad is all we can handle, when our compassion is exhausted. But it doesn’t mean that everyone doesn’t have their story.
And not one of us can fix it all. But we can get clear with ourselves, know who we are and what we believe in and how we want it to come out. Get finished with our past, and start creating the future we want one step at at at time, whatever step we can take without falling off the edge of the world. We can transform our anger into commitment and judge the world by what helps and what hinders, and then start working to clear the obstacles.
No one can do everything. People who work in the kind of environment you work in, and who see the kind of things you see, have to learn to live with their own capacity. If you do what’s in front of you well, you will also see what more you can do. You grow in capacity by small increments, learning what you can accomplish, one step at a time. Doing what is possible, keeping the vision of how you’d like it to be, but doing what is possible. And learning how to make more changes as your sense of the possible expands.
I understand the anger and frustration of you and your friends. I can feel it through your words, and you’ve talked about the reasons. But figuring out what is in your power is a lot more effective than shaking your fist at monolithic systems. Every time you exert your power to make the situation better, even in small ways, you are changing things. And every time you do that, you learn more about what can be changed and what you’re capable of.
Anger is good for understanding the problems. And seeing what needs to be done. And finding the motivation to do it. But when you really don’t want to be a victim anymore, you get smart about it. You pick your fights. You manage your resources. You may find yourself disappointed, but you don’t stay mad for long, because you’re wasting energy by stewing.
This, in the end, is why each of us get well. To empower ourselves to create the lives and the world we want. Not tilting at windmills, but doing it one step at a time, as we are able, as the opportunities present themselves.
You and your friends are passionate about this. Sometimes we need to fight. But more often, we need to make things better. And in bringing light to a situation, we push the darkness back.
I hope you find those opportunities. You are a smart and caring man. There is no way to tell what you and your friends might accomplish, if you just start with the small things that are right in front of you.
If you haven’t read “The Starfish and the Spider” yet, you really should. It might give you some ideas.
Kathy
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learnthelesson says:
Mike -
Thank you!
I must admit I was up very very late last night and am functioning on my reserve! Collecting my thoughts and preparing them for you in any organized fashion is going to be challenging – so I hope you can follow my comments – they do jump around from topic to topic – but they are just thoughts that came to my mind after reading your above post.
My sister and I grew up together , same circumstances (altho my sister was my mothers more favorite one to subject to more emotional abuse/torture than myself) so that may be a factor in how different we are today. And I do think genetically individuals and siblings are going to be uniquely different and who they are and how they react/respond shut-down/ open- up /dare to dream or live in a shell…is highly individualized and personality-trait based.
My sister was the child that dreamed of Disneyland w/the family- I was the child that dared to accept the reality Mom was a lost soul forever–
WE WERE BOTH LATER TARGETED BY A PSYCHOPATH – OR CHOSE TO STAY IN A TOXIC RELATIONSHIP. So whether one wears their heart on their sleeve or one shuts down – they both are still at risk as adults because they both are unhealthy choices – because the guidance, love, nurturing, educating, self-valuing, self-trust etc is not taught, nor learned.
Simply survival is the life focus of the child.
To give you a different perspective… some psychopaths really DO take advantage of ones who no longer dare to dream and who have lost all hope (from a bad marriage to being lonely to losing a job, etc) they prey on vulnerabilties in all sorts of ways. Not just with the ones who wear their hearts on their sleeves.
And in my opinion, the child who shuts down, gives up hope, hardens, and closes down emotionally– becomes at great risk for turning into a psychopath himself/herself.
I dont think theres anything wrong with wearing your heart on your sleeve when youre in a healthy relationship – with a mutually healthy and productive partner is a beautiful attribute in a healthy relationship- However, wearing your heart on your sleeve WITHOUT firm boundaries about how to be treated, respected, spoken to – puts an adult child at increased risk for being a victim of a psychopath.
What I do think is a gift – is the ability and willingness to find the positive traits and negative traits of both individuals. And learning and growing from that.
Mike, please tell Mary that it is my opinion there is something undeniably special about “there being an openness and childlike innocence and ‘dreams for a better tomorrow’ that can never be lost in some individuals no matter how old they are or what they have gone through” –
What isnt good or healthy in my opinion is LIVING IN DENIAL OR IN A FANTASY WORLD about whats really going on in a romantic relationship with a toxic person. Living in reality is something that was hard for me to grasp with my toxic ex.
And isnt it interesting that so many of us here at LF have said time and time again… its like the psychopaths emotional growth is stunted. Its like we are dealing with a teenager or a spoiled child. The games, the pushing boundaries, the me, me, me attitude” its like my ex was a grown man on the outside and a troubled stagnant little boy in the inside. emotionally underdeveloped. (“EU”).. is there one of those in any of the books
just kidding too..but there is a common thread amongst alot of us here dealing with a personal relationship with a toxic person where it seems they never matured or willingly took on the responsibilities of adulthood.
I dont think it was my gift of openness that nearly killed me… it was my lack of self-actualization and lack of boundaries and lack of self-worth and lack of self–value that nearly killed me. Had I been in tune with all of the above, I would have left the relationship at the first red flag of his mask falling off — instead of choosing to stay and become an enabler of his unhealthy ways and that of my own.
I never knew what it was that got me to turn a corner -and build a better future and see a brighter tomorrow for myself and my children – but Id like to now think it was the “third factor”
The greatest difference between us and them is our developmental potential — our willingness to take responsibility, own our mistakes, and others and learn and grow from them. To protect ourselves by trusting our instincts and letting that inner child go or grow up to be the person weve always wanted to be and have the relationships with likeminded individuals. Its our saving grace in our battle against them.
And yes, Mike I believe the “child” in me needed to grow and mature and take some responsibility for my choices too! I just needed to learn how!
Thanks again Mike!
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autisticsouls says:
Rebuilding community is another of my obsessions. My father was raised in a kibbutz, many folks were still traumatized by the holocaust and had many issues. Kids were raised by everyone, and everyone raised the kids. so the burden of the child didn’t fall on just the parents alone or in many cases ‘just one parent’. They came out well adjusted because what the kids couldn’t get somewhere they got somewhere else.
So a bunch of very broken people were able to pump out a bunch of well adjusted kids because they ALL did it together. there were checks and balances, if someone was working someone else was always around. if someone was too tired to give a hug someone else was around to dish it out. Community.
We feel we need to bring back community. Like Mary says the kids are there many times for before care and then the school day and then aftercare, so essentially regardless of what our responsibilities are on paper we are still raising those kids too. They’re our kids and whatever they don’t get at home we have to dish out whenever we can. Somehow between textbooks and standardized tests she told me to make sure i show them I care about them. That little things mean alot.
We want to move in that direction where we build a community, there’s a book called Families by Choice, Creating Family in a World of Strangers by Susan Ahern and Dr. Kent G. BAiley and Creating a Life Together Pratical Tools to Grow Ecovillages and Intentional Communities by Diana Leafe Christian
We feel that this way we can go into a direction where we go back to being a community and bring back the ‘village raising the children’ back to life. so the burden of the child’s well being and future is on everyone. there can always be someone else compensating in areas where two people or more likely these days just one person can’t possibly live up to.
Also there can always be someone else to witness and safeguard against predators. psychopaths can’t single anyone out if there is a whole community watching.
Read the speech and see how the Swedes did it. Denmark and Sweden and others who have done drastic changes has the lowest rates of psychopathy.
Check out John Taylor Gatto’s speech here: http://www.home-ed.vic.edu.au/.....ce-speech/
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