French to introduce law banning psychological abuse
Those of us who have been psychologically abused by sociopaths—whether we’re male or female, and whether the abuser is male or female—know that the abuse should be criminal. It appears that in France, it just may happen.
A Lovefraud reader sent me a link to an interesting story in Time Magazine. Legislators from France’s ruling party are expected to introduce a bill that would outlaw “conjugal abuse of a psychological nature” in both married and unmarried relationships.
According to Time,
The legislation seeks to target the verbal and mental denigration, humiliation and manipulation that typically lead to physical abuse. The hope is that the bill will help prevent the emotional wounds that words often cause before a punch is ever thrown.
I hope the law gets passed. I hope it works. We’ll have to see what happens.
Read the article on Time.com:
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
bopeep says:
This is so important…Why dont we have this here?! Always I hear by the system about physical abuse and the help that is out there for that…Makes me wish I was being beaten the bejesus out of instead of this psychological abuse that destroys you more and sociopaths dont stop until you are dead Im afraid. At least physical wounds heal….I would trade places in a minute for what I have endured and am still living in even though I left the situation…that makes the sociopath even more determined to destroy you. I will work on getting this passed here…
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 10:05am
OxDrover says:
While I think it should be illegal to do “psychological abuse” against any one, the problem I see is that it IS ILLEGAL to physically abuse a partner or any one else, and yet many spouses are repeatedly physically abused and the perp not arrested or charged.
The only physical abuses that are charged are the most outlandish cases, and I imagine the only psychological abuses that will be charged are the most outlandish cases as well, plus the only “proof” must either be the abused’s words of “he called me a doo doo and that was abusive.” At least with physical abuse it at least leaves some physical evidence behind and is clearly abuse.
I don’t mean to sound negative, but Proving physical abuse is much easier than psychological abuse.
That Woman in Tennessee who killed her preacher husband (I forget her name) had been psychologically abused, was one of the worst cases of psychological abuse I have ever heard about.
I hope that law does however raise awareness that psychological abuse of others can be as bad as, or worse, than physical abuse.
Passing laws against bad behavior of any kind doesn’t stop that behavior, just criminalizes it. If it stopped it, we would never have robbery, murder, prostitution or drugs, etc in this country and it would be paradise, but raising awareness that this is not acceptable behavior, and maybe by “defining” it, like has been done in some schools in prohibiting and defining “bullying” has raised awareness and stopped some of the activity at least.
I hope this woman and her child have somehow managed to escape the situation in the two years since this has been written.
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 10:31am
ErinBrock says:
Additionally, even when people are physically abused they do not proceed with charges. They refuse to cooperate, hence prosecuters have very little, at times, to go on.
The problem lies with the victim. If your abused, and file for a TPO or call police to report….FOLLOW THROUGH.
This is where NO CONTACT is important.
When a person is abused, and take the first step to get out and report……an arrest is made or a TPO is issued….then that person is feared or talked into going back…because I’m gonna change, I love you, I want ‘us’ to work blah blah…..then there is nothing anyone can do for the abusee…..and when NOT IF it happens again…and you call the authorities….your case is minimized because law enforcement can predict the outcome…….you’ll drop it and go back.
It’s a perpetual cycle that occurs around the world.
If we want someone to take us seriously……then we must take it seriiously.
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 1:23pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Thank you, Donna. This is excellent news.
Just the idea that legal standards for emotional abuse are being established, with intent to protect people in close relationships, suggests a ripple effect in that could well move into schools, workplaces and mass consciousness.
One of the reasons, I believe, that this kind of abuse is allowed to flourish is a lack of clear identification of what abusive language is, how it affects the target, and the secondary effects in broken families, damaged children, post-traumatic issues that affect all kinds of human systems in debilitating and costly ways. These may be exceptionally laws to write, pass and enforce, but their very existence communicates a value statement by authorities that the public good is served the protection of individual emotional health against the verbal equivalent of physical battering.
While the Time article suggests that this will be a slam dunk by French lawmakers, I think it will be very interesting to see how the law is written and who comes out to support and oppose it. If such a thing were attempted in this country, I can imagine significant resistance, based on Constitutional free-speech rights.
I suspect it will be difficult to frame objective standards, and equally difficult to prove damage. Currently employee protection laws against similar mistreatment, such as sexual harassment or unfriendly workplace laws, require levels of documentation of events and damage that discourage most potential complainants. Typical defenses involve discrediting the employees for one reason or another, including citing pre-existing emotional problems that either contributed to the situation or diminish the “new” damage.
The French legal system still operates on the Napoleanic code. The might make it much easier on victims, because more of the burden of proof is placed on the defendant to prove that the charges are not true.
In any case, whether or not this law can provide a precise model for other countries, especially the US, which is notoriously resistant to expanding the legal definition of human rights, I think it’s a good sign that at least one country is making a serious attempt to define personal damage in this sense.
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 3:45pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Napoleanic code?! I am shipping the spath to France!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 4:49pm
pollyannanomore says:
Ah this is what I have dreamed of – but you all point out good areas to ponder – it won’t make a difference till awareness is raised as to what constitutes psychological abuse, till victims fully recognise they are being abused and report what is happening to them and until there are resources in place to deal with the investigation and punishment of psychological abuse.
We do indeed have legislation against workplace abuse and stress provisions but cases taken against employers are rarely successful – why? well most corporations can afford to employ teams of legal counsel to defend themselves while the employee who has been broken is struggling to survive and has limited resources. We need to level the playing field in this respect – it’s patently unfair that one side in a dispute has access to vast resources while the other has none. Little wonder corporations and large organisations get away with significant abuses against their employees.
Another problem with both workplace and home abuse is that there are seldom witnesses to corroborate the victim’s statements. The idea of Napoleonic Code sounds intriguing -dangerous if you’re accused of something you didn’t do, but useful for cases like this. The rest of the world operates on the premise of ‘innocent until proven guilty’ – making it very very hard for victims of any kind of abuse to get justice. Also many victims are so exhausted by the end of the relationship they just want to walk away from it rather than trying to pursue any kind of justice.
I think it’s great the legislators recognise the damage psychological abuse causes and also that it is always a precursor to physical abuse. I wonder what the impact of this type of legislation would be if adopted worldwide? WOuld we eventually see less need for domestic violence shelters?
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 6:21pm
Stargazer says:
This is good news. Now there are so many reasons to move to France–not just for the beautiful language and the gourmet food. But I think the law should protect men as well. Abuse can work both ways.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 9:06pm
ErinBrock says:
Don’t forget the hot accents!
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Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 10:18pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
yah, all the spaths pretend to be TEXAN!
SNORT!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 15 January 2010 @ 10:32pm
LouiseGolem says:
The morning I went to get my Order of Protection, I woke up and looked in the mirror, and a blood vessel or something had burst under my eye. It was black and blue; so I put as much make-up over it as I could and went downtown. So there I was, a little while later, talking to an advocate in family court about my psychological abuse, (I also had a very graphic e-mail threat to support my case), and she kept looking at me with this pathetic look on her face. She finally said to me, “does he hit you often?”
The black eye may have helped my case — but I wish I could also present the months of agony at work, where I couldn’t think straight long enough to finish a task. My coworkers no doubt noticed the difference in me, but was it documentable? It was just, as my mother said, that I had “changed.” I was insecure in my perceptions and lacked confidence. All the result of “gaslighting” and screaming and name-calling that escalated after I confronted my former S/P about a suspected affair.
NO I’m not with him anymore. I’m meeting him in court next week to make the Order permanent. It’ll be the first time I’ve seen him since early November. And I’ll bet he’ll tell the judge that I’m overreacting, and that I’m just an overly emotional woman. Only I know how much time I lost out of my life, because of the way he played with my brain.
Vive la France!
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Sunday, 17 January 2010 @ 5:38pm
ErinBrock says:
LouiseG:
If thats his story…..GREAT!
Don’t think a judge hasn’t heard about ALL the over reacting crazy women that file for TPO’s and go for an extension.
The fact that your following through is great. It speaks volumes!
You can’t really document (on paper) emotional abuse….it’s contained inside your head/heart. BUT….you can document in words to the judge the affect it has had on your life…..easitly…..just like you stated here.
Typically, if you tell them you live in fear, the fear creates anxiety and it is very disruptive to your life……and state examples…(a few only)…..you’ll be heard.
Bottome line….you fear him, or his actions……get that point across to the judge. Along wiht your letters etc…..
Good luck girl….your going in the right direction!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 17 January 2010 @ 7:56pm
icanseeclearlynow says:
Louise,
I’m struck by the comment on your eye. It really illustrates a point about abuse and the prevalence of “out of sight out of mind”. I was physically as well as emotionally abused. I still get headaches and have whiplash, but other than that there are no outward signs of the horrible damage that was done to me – not physically anyway.
The emotional abuse has left it’s mark in my behavior though – Post Traumatic Stress. The only thing with that is that people don’t RECOGNIZE that as SCARRING AND DAMAGE if they can’t see black and blue.
IF ONLY THE THE DAMAGE ON THE INSIDE, SHOWED ON THE OUTSIDE, PEOPLE WOULD TURN AWAY IN HORROR.
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Sunday, 17 January 2010 @ 10:03pm
brian92680 says:
Laws such as this make it less likely that your “average” abuser will keep on abusing only if they are enforced. Unfortunately, like most laws regarding adult victims of abuse, laws are hardly enforced or taken seriously until the victim is in the hospital or a cemetary.
I wish that adult abuse in relationships could be taken just as seriously as child abuse, and that’s not currently the case. Somehow I don’t think that a person abusing an 8 year old child would get off as lightly as a domestic abuser who targets his “partner” in the same manner.
I believe that psychopaths need to be treated with an iron fist because p’s and s’s don’t care about laws, just about power and control. If they do care about the law, then it’s only when they can twist it to their advantage.
If I had my druthers, parents, siblings, and grown children of adult victims could file a restraining order on behalf of their loved ones in an abusive relationship. I believe that there needs to be an organization for parents and other loved ones of ADULTS in abusive relationships to change DV laws so they could pass this and similar laws.
Such a law would say to the sociopathic predator that “My child (or sibling, or parent) is important enough to me that I’m willing to advocate on her (or his) behalf even when grown.”
I would also like to see restraining orders AUTOMATICALLY apply to parents, siblings, and children of the victim of DV as well as the victim regardless of the age of the siblings or children, not just when the victim’s kids/siblings are minors.
I believe that parents need to keep an eye on their grown children’s relationships and be able to intervene in situations, REGARDLESS OF THE GROWN CHILD’S WILLINGNESS. With sociopaths, the rules are different than with regular relationships.
Other laws that could help include factoring a victim’s past abuse history as an aggravating factor in sentencing (i.e. if a grown victim was also abused by a teacher at 15, the court should factor in the previous as well as current victimization).
The language dealing with abusive adult relationships needs to be changed if there is to be success.
As stated in another thread, psychopaths in relationships are the adult victim analogues of pedophiles and hebophiles and can be described as adult molesters when they sexually coerce/manipulate/assault. A sociopath’s sexual attraction to adults serve the same ends and leads to the same results as a pedophile’s attraction to children or a hebephile’s attraction to teens.
We should not be referring to “partner” abuse at all because partners are peers/equals. Instead we should be referring to adult grooming, sexual coercion and predation.
When psychopaths meet a woman (or man), he is grooming, not dating the victim. They are not interested in relationships with their target’s best interest in mind. They identify vulnerabilities, create a position of power, reward the victim’s compliance, isolate the victim from their loved ones, and sexually, physically, and/or emotionally abuse.
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 9:09am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Brian – powerful last paragraph.
personally, i want a spath vengence squad. and i am actually serious. i want covert groups of healed ex dupes to to band together to deal with those spaths still operating. i think we call this vigilanty justice in NA. we wouldn’t physically hurt them, but do recon around all their dealings, out them endlessly to law enforcement and taxation, community and new ‘freinds’.
the anti spath wing of the guardian angels. spath slayers.
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 9:16am
icanseeclearlynow says:
Brian,
That is an excellent post. I agree with you 100%.
I’d like to see a national advocacy group on this issue along the lines of what Mothers Against Drunk Drivers has done.
Create media awareness.
Educate – go into the High Schools regularly.
Support – provide ongoing support for victims.
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 2:38pm
LouiseGolem says:
Brian,
Great post, indeed.
And yes, your last paragraph is right on the mark. I remember mine used to often say to me things like “you’re doing well. you’re almost there.” Like I had some kind of test to pass. In one of our last conversations together, he was pushing me to lie to my family about aspects of our relationship. I found myself saying to him: “I have to kill a very crucial part of myself to be what you want me to be.”
“So kill it,” he said.
When I left him, we stayed in touch for awhile, and he kept forcing me to rationalize why I left him.. Then he would try to turn the blame to me: “It’s your fault; you met me on the internet.” “It’s your fault; we got intimate too fast.” “It’s your fault; you should have read the signs.” And the great one: “It’s your fault; you loved too much.”
After I left him, he ultimately threatened to throw acid in my face. (While I was with him, he threatened to kill me if I left him.) This is how I got the Order of Protection.
I found this blog on line about a British model whose ex-lover had thrown acid in her face. He was, I guess, a member of some black sub-culture; she was a blond white woman. She met him on Facebook. People in the blog were saying it was her fault for getting involved with a man like that who she met on the internet. “She got what she deserved.”
Can we really have justice against folks who verbally and emotionally abuse us in a society as sick as that?
Erin, thanks for your applause! And yes, icanseeclearly, I think I’d be terrifically disfigured already, if people could see what he did to my spirit.
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 3:42pm
brian92680 says:
icanseeclearly,
Another thing is to make sure that you have all your ducks lined up in a row regarding both the statistics and the impacts of such abuse. There are many studies about DV, rape, and sexual coercion out there.
As you alluded to, I think that the most visible support from the public would come if such an organization was composed mainly of mothers of grown children victimized by DV and other sociopathic offenders. Mothers who know that a child doesn’t have to be a minor to be targeted by predators (sexual and otherwise).
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 4:11pm
pollyannanomore says:
Agree with the others – excellent post Brian – especially the last line about grooming rather than dating – that hit home with me – I am struggling to cope with the fact he has taken up with a much younger woman and is flaunting it in my face. This helps me remember what is really going on in this situation and to remind myself he won’t treat her any better than he treated me.
Louise – that is so scary that he threatened you in this way – I have seen many pictures of those scarred with acid – what a horrible act to do to someone. Thank goodness you got away. The ’she got what she deserved’ phenomenon can also be clearly seen with rape victims “Well she shouldn’t have been wearing THAT and walking there” – as if there is an excuse and the attacker was provoked in some way! It’s all about Just World Theory – people like to think that everyone in the world gets what they worked for and what they deserve – it simply isn’t true as I am rapidly finding out. People don’t like to think about the injustices that exist so it’s easier to blame the victim “Well you must have provoked him in some way – you should know to keep your mouth shut”
NO NO NO!!! There is never an excuse for abuse. Abuse is soul murder and identity crushing. I do want to see a public education campaign – but how do we do it? It’s such a hard phenomenon to explain. If we could explain it in one sentence we might have a better shot at it. I tried writing about it for a character and after many tries gave up = I couldn’t clearly articulate what was wrong with this person.
It’s crazy!
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 6:29pm
patriotdad says:
The new French law is UNISEX. If you were a true professional not a misandrist you would have questioned the validity of such an obvious discrepancy as is stated in the title. You would have done this in either the interpretation or the validity of passing such a gender biased law.
Any DV related law that targets only one sex is erroneously based and abusive of human rights whether targeting males or females. To claim a gender neutral law is targeting only one sex, men, the sex who least frequently commits this particular defined form of abuse, is misandry.
If you were not pre-disposed to be prejudice against men, you would have spotted this, immediately.
Thankfully, most men and women are not abusive and the general public is beginning to spot the propoganda, these falsehoods and myths.
If you, representing yourself as a professional, cannot understand the well documented fact that DV with a couple of small variations is overall a gender balanced form of human abuse, you are either very prejudiced or woefully uninformed on your stated specialty.
The numbers of violent women and men are near equal in almost all categories, with women pulling ahead in overall numbers of perpetrators.
If you are having issues with recognizing that DV is a human problem, not a gender problem, you need some serious counseling to get back on track. You may have immersed yourself into rationalizing hate and demagoguery. Your apparant gender hate may be showing through the facade of ‘a kind and reasonable person’.
Review your own writings about psychopaths and antisocial personality disorders. Apply your own descriptions of symptoms and indicators to your own writings. You either need a self-check on your biases or you need professional assistance to get back on track. You are enabling the female abuser readers and providing secondary victimization of the abused men among your readership. You have both male and females from both categories as readers. If someone were doing this to women, would you react the same?
If you were being professional on this blog, as you claim, you would recognize each relationship is stand alone in addressing violence and cannot be fit into a gender defined mold. You would recognize that to enter into an assessment using your own prejudice and not professionalism, is to guarantee a destructive therapeutic relationship and outcome. This, applying your own amorphous cup of irrational personal bias and agendas in a statement as a professional, is called “transference”. You were trained to guard yourself against transferece to become a mental health professional.
Transference, a dangerous and destructive counseling/therapeutic prejudice, is only transference if you are unaware of your bias, if you are aware, which you are, it then becomes a form of abuse and false activism.
As long as the demagogues and male hate mongers, misandrists, continue to pander to the prejudice of pc man-hate, we will never be able to adequately address that abuse is a gender neutral dysfunction. And, we will never be able to stop it as long as we reward any gender for committing it.
If anything, the studies show that women are slightly more aggressive than men, but because of the extreme bias against men, the conviction numbers are readily acknowledge by researchers as being skewed and reflective of bias of courts, police, & prosecutors against men. Those conviction numbers are sometimes used to justify ever more contraindicated draconian legislative victimization of men that does nothing more than fuel ever greater DV by abusive women freely allowed to train their children in their own footsteps. The bias rewards and incentivizes abuse by the women in our world who are abusive.
When ‘anyone’ expresses prejudice, an irrational hate of any human belonging to a targeted group, that same ‘anyone’ will very readily rationalize hate and abuse to targeted others on race, religion, etc….
Prejudice is very ugly and is the issue you, as a proclaimed professional, must address before realistically addressing any abuse by others. Domestic violence is, sadly, a gender equal opportunity life destroyer.
Much of the enforcement system is driven by the Federally funded training for these officials (judges, D.A.s, attorneys, and police) is filtered through shelter groups for personal self-aggrandizement, and allowed to be controlled and directed by women who have no professional qualifications and in some instances are themselves convicted of violence towards their own children and spouses. These gender activists have very serious financial incentives to maintain the bias.
Several states are now going outside this twisted, for profit, training system to look for unbiased professional training on gender neutral approaches to DV and joint custody barring violence or abuse to a criminal standard by either side.
An excerpt from a recent online study is provided below and the full text can be Googled and readily located. It states that psychological abuse is one where the female perpetrators outnumbered the males. The answers are not as cut and dry as being an all male or all female issue as you would present. Learn to be professional, once more.
“A 2005 study by Hamel[8] reports that “[M]en and women physically and emotionally abuse each other at equal rates.” Basile[9] found that psychological aggression was effectively bidirectional in cases where heterosexual and homosexual couples went to court for domestic disturbances. A 2007 study of Spanish college students (n = 1,886) aged 18–27 [10] found that psychological aggression (as measured by the Conflict Tactics Scale) is so pervasive in dating relationships that it can be regarded as a normalized element of dating, and that women are substantially more likely to exhibit psychological aggression. Similar findings have been reported in other studies.[11] Strauss et al.[12] found that female intimate partners in heterosexual relationships were more likely than males to use psychological aggression, including threats to hit or throw an object. A study of young adults (N = 721) by Giordano et al.[13] found that females in intimate heterosexual relationships were more likely than males to threaten to use a knife or gun against their partner.
Numerous studies [14][15][16][17][18][19] report that lesbian relationships have higher overall rates of interpersonal aggression (including psychological aggression/emotional abuse) than heterosexual or gay male relationships. Furthermore, women who have been involved with both men and women reported higher rates of abuse from their female partners.[20]
In 1996, the National Clearinghouse on Family Violence,[3] for Health Canada, reported that 39% of married women or common-law wives suffered emotional abuse by husbands/partners; and a 1995 survey of women 15 and over (n = 1000) 36-43% reported emotional abuse during childhood or adolescence, and 39% experienced emotional abuse in marriage/dating; this report does not address boys or men suffering emotional abuse from families or intimate partners. A BBC radio documentary on domestic abuse, including emotional maltreatment, reports that 20% of men and 30% of women have been abused by a spouse or other intimate partner.[21]
Straus and Field[22] report that psychological aggression is a pervasive trait of American families: “verbal attacks on children, like physical attacks, are so prevalent as to be just about universal.” A 2008 study by English, et. al[23] found that fathers and mothers were equally likely to be verbally aggressive towards their children.”
It has been odd watching a person with observable asocial attitudes moderate an anti-psychopath blog formatted discussion group as the person slowly fragments and begins to expose themselves and their disturbed thinking. It should be a personal wake-up call. We can all slip into wrong-way generalizations, but mental health professionals need to be especially wary of their own humanity.
Sign me a survivor of physical and emotional DV, as well as secondary abuse by Misandrist Hate Mongers.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 10:09am
Kathleen Hawk says:
patriotdad, you are clearly angry about your idea that female-to-male abuse is not adequately acknowledged. However, if you spent much time on this site, you would be aware that a number of our regulars are men with histories of involvement with abusive women.
However, you may also note that the overwhelming percentage of people on this site are women. What that means in terms of overall interpersonal abuse numbers in the world at large is something we can’t estimate. You have your numbers. We have the evidence of our population here.
Just to keep things straight, the Time article that was cited in the original post above said specifically that the law is being written to protect women, as a result of general consciousness being raised by the murder of several woman by their husbands or boyfriends. Perhaps you think that Time magazine is also misandrist in their reporting.
Finally, this is a site for mutual support. It is unfortunate that you feel that your own cause is unrecognized. However, mutual support does not include calling each other names like “Misandrist Hate Mongers,” criticizing each other for things like “asocial attitudes,” and we try to keep straight on each other’s facts. The writer of this article is not a mental health professional.
I’m going to report your post as abusive, which it is. Anger is not an excuse. Donna, you are welcome to delete my response as well, if you wish.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 10:55am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Good Morning Kathy – I have also reported the post.
best,
one step
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:04am
sabrina says:
I wanted to share my current situation with you guys as it is relates to this article- BUT I NEED some advice here PLEASE, if any of you have been where I’m at-
Some of you here may know that after my 3 yr old relationship/marriage to an abusive N/P,which included protection orders, charges for DV against him, etc. I had to face that my 21 yr old son is also an abusive S.
He has been in jail for almost 3 wks awaiting court for DV toward his girlfriend of 19. The court is today.
I have been talking with his gf whose parents live out of the country and dont know anything about the sustained abuse she has dealt with for about a yr. now. I have begged her to tell them what she has now shared with me, and allow them to help her. She wont even allow me to contact them on her behalf (I have no way of reaching them.)
So I am trying to counsel her in the best LF kind of way- stressing NO contact,,and have given her this site to help her heal. Even tho I am the predators mother,(its hard to even type the words) I tell her NO different than I would tell a beloved friend ( and I do love her very much) and that is to protect herself #1 , and my advice is to take this to the FULLEST extent of the law. My burden for her is tremendous, aside from the burden of knowing my son’s fate (of being a P, without conscience)
She recently broke my heart when she said she may drop the charges (shes in a major trauma bond, and I’ve discussed this with her, along with other symptoms of abuse).
I pleaded with her to get protection order although warning her that unfortunately this WILL only set up a paper trail,with minimal safety for her-
BUT it IS NEEDED as he won’t leave her alone- and she admittedly “can’t say no to getting back with him” I explained that the protection order will help HER emotionally to enforce and keep NC. It will not PREVENT a S in a sociopathic rage from coming after her!
I said to her if you were to drop this charge, the police may not take this as seriously the NEXT time he does this to you! She sd. I know, when I called the police another time, I had a black eye ,but ended up NOT pressing charges, and the officer said TO THIS 19 yr old college student WITH NO PARENTAL GUIDANCE, or family-
‘ Then I have NO pity for YOU” (since she refused pressing charges) — WHAT THE Freak???
I am furious that this ignorant police officer would say this to this abused girl!!! ALSO, I am debating on sending an email to the college councelor stating the facts of this case so that MAYBE someone can help her!
Along with the struggles for justice, I see the enormous need for officers training even before the laws can be readily enforced.
I realize that I am all over the place with this post, which represents where my brain is- not to mention my heart.
On the other side of it- I refuse to enable my son by helping him. He is where he should be – in jail. My only outreach was to send a 5 page letter with bible scripture where God commands us to turn away from evil, and not live as fools who are destained for death and destruction through wickedness.
As a mother, this is a wretched place to be in. My feelings and knowledge on abuse and sociopathy are clear and steadfast. The natural tendencies to protect and nuture my son are in direct conflict when he is the abuser. There is no protection for him- I must do my best in protecting others “from” him.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:05am
Donna Andersen says:
Patriotdad,
I have adjusted the headline of the article. You are right – the actual law appears to be gender neutral.
I will point out, however, that a simple observation on your part would have sufficed. Your apparent vitriol damages your own cause.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:35am
ErinBrock says:
Sabrina:
I am so sorry…..and my heart breaks for you!
I am also very very proud of you for taking such a courageious stand for what is right and trying to protect this young woman from a predator. Even if that preditor is your own son.
I have been recently learning the ‘concept’ of tough love…..and it’s all about the name….TOUGH!
It is imperative this woman knows the dangers….unfortunately, she may NOT be ready to accept it, as a lot of persons in her position are not.
Your efforts though will not go un noticed or in vain….there will come a day, where she ‘wakes’ up….maybe tomorrow….maybe in 10 years….or like me with all the people who tried to help me…..28 years!
I believe you have done ALL you can do for her. It’s a delicate situation……
Keep the nudging going, but don’t enable her……point her in the healthy direction.
As far as your son goes….I’m sorry for your realization. I bet you suffered with abuse from him also……I tried to put myslef in your shoes, and imagine how your feeling angry at your son amongst other things…..and I just can’t. I too see signs of behaviors I am certainly not happy with in one of my sons……and it scares the shit out of me……I lead him on a tight rope, but he is still defiant etc…..If he turns out to be abusive….I have NO IDEA what I will do…..expect be prepared to ‘let him go’……like his father.
Remain strong….and your doing the right thing……you cant’ control others behaviors.
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:46am
Kathleen Hawk says:
sabrina, there may be a reason why she doesn’t want to contact her parents. People with previous history of traumatic abuse are more likely to be revictimized.
Rather than counsel her about NC (which is probably not something that she can get her mind around), it might be more useful to be very straight with her. She is behaving like someone who is seriously mentally ill and not able to protect herself. Physical abusers escalate the abuse. Her life is at risk. Ask her if she wants to die, or get help.
This may sound brutal, but she’s disassociating. And the only way she’s going to make a better decision is if you can break through that.
You’re relating to her pain. And you’re assuming that the best medicine is “comfort.” Telling her you care. Telling her she’s worth more. Telling her that it would be better if she went NC.
She’s not hearing you because she’s caught in a cycle of panic. And she’s going back to him, because however twisted this is, he is security. It’s like an addiction and she needs an intervention.
I’d call the DV hotline or get in touch with whatever DV resources are available, and tell them to you need a therapist or other professional who can help clarify that she’s mentally ill right now, and that her life is absolutely at risk. And that she has to start taking steps to get well and protect herself.
I don’t think that you can do this by yourself. You’re too emotionally involved, and you’re also “family,” which she may or may not trustl, no matter when you tell her your loyalties are. That doesn’t mean you can’t support her, if she does get help and go into recovery. It’s just this intervention. She needs someone to wake her up, and she has already shown that she can successfully tune you out.
You said she’s in school. If you can’t find someone to help you through the DV people, try the school. Explain the story and say that YOU need help, in order to help her. That you are not able to reach her, and she has already been injured and is at severe risk of more violence. Then ask if they have a counselor or outreach program for victims of DV. Also check the police. They may have someone.
sabrina, you are not responsible for this. I know you care. But you cannot physically restrain this girl, or ultimately protect her from herself. She has to make her decisions. The challenge is to find someone to help wake her up to what she is doing to herself by continuing to allow him into her life. But if she doesn’t make that decision, you have to find the strength in yourself to let it go. Because it’s out of your hands.
People in her situation need to know that someone cares about them and will be there for them. But that, in the end, is all you can do. This is up to her.
You are struggling with a history of victimization and the knowledge that your son is an abuser. Your mental health is a matter of concern. You need to take care of yourself. That means to pay attention to how you feel, do good things for yourself, and consciously limit your involvement in what you can’t handle or what is out of your control. I know this is your son, and I know you care about her. But you have to take care of yourself or this whole thing is going to turn into a re-traumatizing experience for you. And none of these people are going to be there to take care of you.
I hope this makes sense. Please, please take care of yourself.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:50am
Donna Andersen says:
Sabrina,
Being involved with an abuser is much like an addiction. Perhaps you can get the young woman to read the following article—along with the links at the end. The links go to articles that explain the physical and psychological aspects of the addiction. Maybe it will help her.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....s-in-2010/
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 12:15pm
sabrina says:
Erin, thanks so much for your response, it means alot to me, knowing how you took on the S husband, and kicked his A** up one side and down the other in court. We all rejoiced in your victory and have been encouraged through your courage and resolve to end the abuse. I am so sorry to hear the news that your son is exhibiting traits as well. No one can even imagine what it is like until you walk in these shoes. it is like trying to “prepare” for a death- you just can’t. Even when your laughing and having carefree moments- the dimness of your loss is still there staring through the joy- behind the smile and light is that darkness and sadness that is just there. Even if no one in the room knows, you KNOW. The heartache you feel when other moms complain about their sons grades in college,not keeping a clean room, or staying out too late. You just think- oh to Have that problem. That is sooo trivial compared… Its all about perspective. I know many parents who would prefer my problem over worse situations yet. Thank God the g.f. is alive! I am doing everything I can to give her the knowledge that most of us didnt have in the midst of the abuse cycle.
Kathy- Thank you, your wisdom is invaluable to me. I share your thoughts about my mental state, and hers as well. We are on same page about notifying the school. As I mentioned, the comment from the officer was ridiculous, but may not represent the PD attitudes. I still think the college may be more beneficial and she is more apt to take the help as it would be less threatening to a 19 yr old.
As you advised, I have been very upfront and forward in what I have told her. She feels “pity” for him , as he has her believing that he dosen’t REMEMBER his vicious attacks on her. I said “If he KILLS you next time, It won’t really MATTER if he remembers or NOT, YOU WILL STILL BE DEAD! You don’t get a 2nd chance or “do over” to live.
I also told her numerous times to quote Oxy (not exact-but something of this nature) that rat poison is 99% benign ingredients while only 1% is lethal. That 1% is enough to KILL YOU. All those momentary “good” qualities do not negate the “death potential” that you are endangering yourself with. (a big thank you to Oxy for such an easy to understand analogy HUGS)))
ANy and all comments is appreciated as I am more than willing to try most anything necessary to help. The sad part is that I may be setting myself up for a lifetime of trying to save.
I know that there is ONLY so much that I can do, I am not responsible for his actions but I feel that If I am knowing of abuse , able to intervene, but don’t,it is just as guilty. Not to say that sometimes we can only afford to spend so much energy in it, and our own safety has to be priority. And yes, Erin, you were right – my son has even been abusive towards me, and I’ve seen the S- rage that goes on- its quite chilling.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:02pm
ErinBrock says:
Sabrina:
“The sad part is that I may be setting myself up for a lifetime of trying to save.”
This is where you must balance the awareness with the realization you can’t ‘help’ everyone.
You must set those boundaries and stick to them. I imagine this is very difficult to do…..because we are ‘helpers’, ‘fixers’…..
I have gotten good at ‘giving up’ on people on the ‘outside’ that just won’t get it….I can say my peace and walk away….
But….with those on the ‘inside’ I haven’t figured out the key that fits the lock on that one.
I am as prepared mentally as I can be to ‘let this son go’ when he’s 18.
If that is what it takes to keep my sanity and health in tact.
This mental preparednesss will not make it any easier to do if I need to…..but willingness is my protector at the moment.
I often think how I will feel if he’’s living under a bridge and needs help……but the ‘help’ I can offer has been raising him to know right from wrong…..save money, plan ahead, treat others like you wish to be treated and all the lessons parents teach……but I am aware I can’t enable him. It’s up to him.
This son has ’stood’ up and blocked me from leaving a room and has very little respect for authority. He’s ADHD and I refuse to let that be an excuse.
I have had major hardships and no one is interested in any of the excuses I could come up with to excuse behaviors /actions…..
It’s like if we lose a leg……what, do we just sit in the corner for the rest of our lives? NO you figure it out……
It’s unfortunate, but we have to figure out how to live with our specific situation.
We are responsible for our own happiness.
Reading your post, I envisioned myself with my son in your position and it scares the hell out of me. I can only hope my influence overrides his S fathers…..but ultimately he knows how it feels to be abused and it is his choice how to treat people.
Anyways….do what you can, but don’t give more than you have to ‘give’.
You should be proud of your knowledge and willingness to help and raise awareness to others.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:25pm
witsend says:
sabrina,
I am so sorry to hear about your current situation. I think that contacting the domestic abuse center is a very good option. They deal with situations like this and should have some resources available.
I have thought about you so many times and wondered how you were doing.
God this is so hard. My heart hurts for you because I know that you didn’t arrive where you are at today, with the ability to accept this about your son….. Without intense grief. And alot of shed tears.
And you are right…Even when you do accept this it is like a “darkness” that follows you and you can never get free from it. It even clouds over the happy moments in life. Mothers were not given what it takes to have no contact with their children. Its very un-natural to have this conflict inside of us.
You are doing the best you can in a difficult situation with your sons G/F. It is an addiction. Sometimes interventions work and sometimes they do not. Please take care of yourself.
I wish you well. Hugs to you.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:37pm
sabrina says:
Donna, Great, I got the girls email so that I can send her links. I will send this. Anyone else with links that will help, please send them. I will make sure she gets them!
Update- she said alittle bit ago that LF has helped her ALOT!
Thank God for this site! THank YOU DONNA.
Any suggestions on what to say or how to deal with him? As I type this, I am shaking my head. I am no newbie to dealing with this. So I guess I might as well erase this question. Talking to a S is like asking a snake not to bite you. You can do it til the cows come home, and it ain’t gonna stop ‘em from their agenda. I know this, and yet I am still struggling with banding my son with the lot of the sociopaths, mentally meshing him with the likes of them.
As a woman of strong faith, I must face the reality of today,but never want to give up hope and the desperate desire for my son to be changed through faith, prayer, and God’s grace. My thoughts and prayers are with all of you facing these trials.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:42pm
sabrina says:
Witsend- Oh thank you so much. I think of you often, and your son as well. I would like to know how you are getting along. You have been thru sooo much and are still helping others so selflessly. You and I have been on this similar path awhile now and have seen how this progresses. It is a day to day journey. Sometimes I cry like a little baby about it, sometimes I am tough girl with anger issues. Its like Erin says you have to “try” to prepare yourself as best as one can. I will have to sign off for awhile now, but will be following up later tonight. Blessings to you all.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:49pm
ErinBrock says:
I still talk to my son….very openly and direct. About how the world views abusers and how it’s NOT okay to hurt/control/abuse anyone…..self included.
I try different angles,,,,,Him…others…..me…..
I am not willing to ‘give up’ just yet, but I am trying to fine tune what my boundaries are.
Even if I say my peace….for MY benefit….because he won’t listen to anything I say…..at least I feel good about continuing to do what i should as a parent of a minor.
I know I get through to him, because I hear him counseling others …..I know he does get it at times….but the other times is what I worry about…..and those times provide his very poor choices that will hurt others and get him in trouble.
Good luck Sabrina…..and know….your in my thoughts…sending you mojo!!!
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 2:01pm
Petra60 says:
Here is the other BIG problem when standing up to an abuser in court. You have to have money and be willing to lose it.
I have now been in litigation with my ex for the past five years. (I thought it would take one year and a few hundred dollars to get a divorce – especially since I had a valid and legal separation agreement). How wrong I was. It has cost all of my savings, two properties, my health and my nerves – and as far as I can tell – he is broke as well.
But, he doesn’t care. He wants to see me lose my house…my income…my sanity. He knows every trick in the book as far as litigation goes…has switched lawyers…has pretended to suffer from a heart attack…works for a big fundraising firm and tells the attorneys that he is in Iraq saving children.
I honestly thought that my life was going to change if I stood up to him…but, it hasn’t. He is still planning my demise…and the courts don’t care. Everyone seem to think that it’s about money. The judges ruled against him…they warned him that if he doesn’t abide by the Separation agreement – he will end up in jail. Then, another year goes by. I have spent $150,000 on attorney fees and there is no end in sight.
After supporting him as a military wife…raising our two boys…and enduring his covert abuse (which turned into physical abuse before I locked him out of the house) for 30 years…I wanted to be free but, can’t find a way out of it. We were tied together with taxes…properties…military laws.
I didn’t see this coming. When I wanted a divorce – all hell broke lose. He purposefully and calculately planned every move to topple me over.
At this point I wonder if it wouldn’t have been better to take my money and disappear. Standing up to a Sociopath is a lonely and futile proposition. Every time I think it’s over – it isn’t. I told my attorney – from the very beginning – my ex has been diagnosed to be a Sociopath. He is dangerous…he will play mind games…he will come and go as he pleases…he will hide behind his job and feels entitled to break the law.
Attorneys don’t listen. They have heard similar accusations from every other disgruntled wife. Now – 3 years later – my attorney realizes what is going on. I can’t blame him – it took me 30 years.
I spent weeks compiling evidence of his abuse, his lies, fraud, e-mails, broken promises, affairs, etc. Nothing was ever introduced in court. In the end – it was all about the Separation Agreement. Lawyers don’t want to touch the abuse issues…and even if they did – it would cost a fortune – especially if you hire a really good one.
I have had zero contact with my ex. Saw him in court again last week. He is a pathetic excuse for a human being. Cold, calculated, arrogant. Normal people would worry about being thrown into jail. Not him. He thinks he is innocent, and has convinced himself that I am the problem. He wrote an e-mail recently that I will get what’s coming to me.
We never appeared in front of the judge last week…my ex told the lawyers that he is ready to end this…told them that he will sign on the dotted line. Then, he disappeared again.
I am sure he is claiming to be helping with the Haiti disaster.
This morning I received another piece of bad news. He will never know – but, there are times when I don’t think I can take one more thing. I wanted to be free of him – but, it doesn’t seem possible. On the positive side: I am still standing, and I have not lost my house.
I wish there were more sympathetic lawyers, judges, senators, etc… I wish there were laws that would help us…but, even if there were – who would pay for it?
The bottom line is – if your spouse, boyfriend, lover or ex is truly a Sociopath – get away from him…don’t file for divorce unless you are planning to re-marry. Leave your home and
get away from him/her as quickly and as quietly as you can. Spend your money on a good and supportive therapist instead of a lawyer.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 2:17pm
witsend says:
Petra60,
It is a very valid point that you make here for other women going through this very same thing.
Sometimes it is in a persons best interest not to fight them in court. Because there is no winning. And in the end the price you pay isn’t worth it.
It is important to remember that all sociopaths are not “stupid” and impulsive. Some are very calculating.
I hope the end is in sight for you soon.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 2:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Petra,
Sometimes walking away upright is the best option, as they do not care that they “cut their own noses off to spite their faces” as long as “You lose” they think that means that they won. DUH????? Makes no sense in a normal mind, but only in theirs. They are willing to die in order to kill you. God bless you in your struggle with this monster. (((Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 5:59pm
sabrina says:
Petra60, I am sorry to hear about your bad situation. S just are hellbent to win without any moral compass or impulse control , no matter how money, time, and energy it cost. It is like a game to them, using monopoly money with no reality base. They make no real future plans, no thought of tomorrow, just the greed and deception of the day.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 7:02am
sabrina says:
My S son’s g.f. did go to court yesterday, and acquired the protection order for one year which I am relieved to hear.
He received a slap on the wrist- anger management classes with his guilty charge of physical abuse. But the goal of trying to protect the g.f. and her beginning to stay NC has been established.Unfortunately, it will be up to her to enforce the NC- laws are made to be broken in his eyes, so the protection order means nothing to him.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 7:15am
ErinBrock says:
Sabrina:
You know what really helped me with NC……it was the Extended Order of protection…..
The judge/police/therapist all made it VERY CLEAR….that I Cannot contact him either….
The greater distance I had from the S, the more clear I was able to see the light….the more I saw the reality, the more disgusted I got…..
IT is imperative GF follows through!!! THIS IS NO JOKE.
If she sneaks around to see him…..there are 2 problems……
He will turn his manipulations on her and she will lose all credibility…….
AND he can set her up to just ‘come over’ for a minute, no one will know……I love you type scenario in a weak moment……and call the police ON HER………
At this point in my life…..TPO time……I was VERY afraid of him ‘getting even’ and I had lost ALL TRUST IN HIM. I knew he would have LOVED to of had me arrested……
One of his cries is, I cant believe she called the police on me…..I can’t believe kids called police on me…..I DID NOTHING WRONG! Oh, this was …….I would NEVER call the police on my family…….NO ONE does that!
This told me that if he had ANY reason…….he would grab the opportunity…….AND I DIDN”T WANT TO SEE IT GET WORSE!!!!
So…..I hope, for herself and for other victims of DV…….that she follows through to a T and respects the order in the spirit it was meant…….and doesn’t invalidate it with the police and courts and dv advocates by sneaking around with an abuser.
She must call police even if he calls her…..It’s a court ordered NC order!!!!! Drives by her house, work, contacts friends to send messages…….even if it seems trivial….she needs to file a police report…….SHE MUST!!!
This is why these things are in place……TO PROTECT US!!!
It’s not a golden fence…..but they can work well if WE use it in the spirit it was set up……
I’m really glad she was in court….and it angers me to no end to send an abuser to anger management…….FORCED!
Well….maybe he will be the odd abuser and WANT TO CHANGE!!!!
But…..i’ts on his record now…..and he better stop collecting DV charges……..COPS DON”T LIKE THAT, either do judges!!!!
And I hope to god…..this relationship is OVER!!!!!
Darlen…..if your reading this……please keep reading on LF and educating yourself on abusive relationships……it’s a screwed situation to be in…..but your 19 years old….DONT” WAIT FOR 28 years To REALIZE……that your married to a peice of shit…..LIKE I DID!!!!
THEY DO NOT CHANGE!!!!!!
You really do have your whole life before you…….take control and steer clear of these types of relationships!!!
You CAN DO THIS!!!!
Use this time for YOU……get into therapy and the right man will come along one day!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 10:18am
Cat says:
Wow, great article! I haven’t been able to be around the past few days and there’s much happening on here.
EB: Right on, girl! I am praying, sabrina, that this young woman gets it NOW as opposed to later after he has taken everything she has and is. It’s a wonderful opportunity for her to learn some very valuable lessons at a young age. Getting the order was a HUGE step that she was abused and now the justice system knows it as well.
EB, you nailed it when you talked about those quick little intervals of “love” they try and coerce you into. Mine made up excuses; he HAD to have this or that as part of his property was still in my home. I got around that by telling him to pick it up at the neighbors if it was so almighty important. They will try ANYTHING and when one is vulnerable, BAM, they are back in. Once I learned the “game”, and that’s all it is, the whole picture changed. I recently had my protection order made permanent. I did this in fear that at some point he would, and he really thinks he has the right to do this, just walk as if he’d been on a business trip.
The greatest gift we can give ourselves is education and finding others who get where we have been. Coming to LF has been one of the greatest steps I ever made in my recovery. I learn more from those who have been where I’m at than from anyone else.
Petra, I agree with Ox on just walking away. In their need to get even with us, most are more than willing to go down themselves. In my case, my ex TOLD me that if he had to lose it all, he would make sure I did as well, regardless of the fact that we have a young son together. He didn’t care if he took his own child down! That’s how vicious they are. It’s not what you’re walking away from, it’s what you’re walking towards; a new life, a new self and peace within.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 10:43am
witsend says:
sabrina,
Well that is good news that the order of protection is in place. And hopefully she is in the “right place” to let the protection order do what it is suppose to do.
Unfortunately she might not be ready for complete N/C either. It is pretty likely that he will try to work around the PO, if he is still under the misconception that the “rules” don’t apply to him. So the burden to follow through and enforce will be on her. She is so young to really understand to the full extent. That he will NOT change. Even after all she has been through. Domestic violence is really hard to wrap your brain around and get away from. The bondage. The addiction to the abuser. Its all so complex.
I hope she is a strong young woman and can use this order to help herself to stay N/C with your son. That would be a blessing.
How about you? How are you feeling now?
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 11:40am
Petra60 says:
Thanks for everyone’s comments. OxDrover called him a “Monster”…I never thought of him that way – but, it fits.
I should have walked away – but, I wasn’t possible. In this day and age – the IRS, the attorneys, the banks, your ex – can find you.
He agreed to a separation and a divorce…he signed a fair and logical separation agreement…he found himself a young girlfriend…and I was trying to move on with my life. For all intensive purposes – it looked like just another divorce. But, he didn’t see it that way. He was out to destroy me, and was planning to do it in small increments. The biggest problem was that we were tied together with taxes and three properties.
It took three years to get him to hand over our 2006 and 2007 tax returns…He produced the final copies two days before we went to trial August 09…I had to pay $10,000 in back taxes…made a check out to the IRS…handed it to my attorney and I thought everything was taken care of. As a result – it was never addressed in court. The judge was not happy with my ex nor his lawyer…by the end of the day – I won on all counts. My ex owed me $150,000 in arrearages, I was to receive alimony directly from his employer…half of his military pension…his life insurance policies…was allowed to keep my home…etc. Great news – but, how does one enforce it? Who is going to arrest him if he doesn’t comply?
More litigation, more money, more stress. He is counting on me giving up eventually. If it had not been for my therapist’s encouragement – I would have thrown in the towel a long time ago. I am not sure what that would have meant – because the IRS was going to come knocking on my door eventually.
We were divorced in Dec. 2008 and I filed my own taxes in 2009. I was expecting a refund of $600…The IRS informed me that I would not be receiving that refund because we still owed $6,000 in back taxes. In other words – my ex did not pay his share of the back taxes. Grrr.
The separation agreement clearly states that we will sell our townhouse once our son moves out. (Mischa – our 29 year old – is as abusive and devious as my ex – and didn’t tell me that he was moving. Not only that – but, he left behind a huge mess – for me to clean up.)
The townhouse needed to be sold – but, my ex wouldn’t agree to having it renovated…wouldn’t sign the listing agreement…disappeared for months and refused to pay one half of the mortgage… So – I had to go back to court.
Two weeks ago – five minutes before we had to appear in front of the judge – he handed me a signed listing agreement -but, after checking – it turned out that it was all wrong. We pinned him down to sign the right papers. He was mad as hell. Then, he agreed to sign a Quit claim deed for the townhouse and my house in exchange for all the arrearages he owes me. The court appearance was canceled.
I was elated…got my hopes up…met with the attorneys …thousands of dollars later – he didn’t sign anything and disappeared again. He works for Project Hope as one of the top two executives and is probably claiming that he is busy saving the wounded in Haiti.
So – here I am. The townhouse has been renovated – which I had to pay for… I have been paying the mortgage…and found out yesterday that neither my ex nor my son have been paying the HOA fees… Now that the townhouse is up for Sale and my ex has not signed a Quitclaim deed – the realtor needs more documents signed – and my ex has disappeared again. End result – more legal fees.
The sale of the townhouse is the only way I can pay back legal fees. It was supposed to be my investment for my old age. My ex is making damn sure that I won’t have a penny left.
I am not really sure what I am trying to say. My story is not much different than all the other stories I’ve read on Lovefraud. It is a travesty that so many men (and women) can get away with treating human beings with such disdain and hatred. The legal system is overburdened…the judges don’t want to hear the gory details of bad marriages…the attorneys stay busy gathering evidence, typing up briefs, negotiating, and making their clients wait.
My lawyer (who is one of the most respected divorce attorneys in the Washington D.C. area) commented recently that I should have seen this coming. Why? How? Should I have studied law in order to get a divorce? I didn’t have a clue about depositions, subpaenaes, hearings, trials, etc. I was under the mistaken assumption that my attorney was going to look out for my best interest and stand on the side of truth and justice. When I filed for divorce – I was told that it was going to be a piece of cake – and would not cost more than $5,000 (as if that was nothing)…3 years and $150,000 later – I am still involved and have to endure my ex husband’s mind games.
The gall of that “monster” to show up in court for the fourth time (we didn’t think he would because the judge threatened to throw him into jail)…but, then, he promised to make a deal and end this nightmare. Before I could tell the attorneys involved that this was just another one of his stalling tactics – they were talking to the judge and canceled the appointment.
The offer was a joke, not worth the paper it was written on.
I don’t understand why the lawyers put up with it.
Over and over and over again. He dupes everyone.
I have a feeling that he will never be done with me. Like Sabrina said: He thinks that he is winning. Nobody knows what that means. He lost everything…I lost everything…our boys are suffering. What happened to all of us being entitled to the pursuit of happiness?
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 2:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Petra,
Your X sounds so TYPICAL of a psychopath, causing problems as revenge and generally getting away with it….at least unless YOU spend money to ENFORCE it…next time, you might ask for attorneys fees since he did not comply and get a garnishment on his wages, there is also the turning him over to a collection agency. they will take a percentage of what they collect, but they HOUND THEM very well. Check it out, since it is quite a large sum they might be very interested. Him having a job that they can file garnishment on and they KNOW THE ROPES, so that might be better than messing with it yourself. 50% of something is better than 100% of NOTHING.
His behavior is just so out “of the psychopath’s play book”–it is on page 157, first paragraph “screw them anyway you can, delay delay delay and don’/t keep your word about anything, even if the court orders it.”
I’m sorry you are having these problems but “it isn’t personal” really they treat everyone that way. Lie lie lie! HE IS THE LIE! (((hugs)))) and my prayers.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 5:56pm
witsend says:
Petra60,
You know it really just kind of boils down to control, doesn’t it? Even though you are legally divorced you can’t really move on. One way or the other he is in contol of your money. EVEN your income tax return. He does feel like he is “winning”. He must feel like he has control of everyone involved.
He has everyone jumping through hoops trying to get him to sign a peice of paper and he manages not to, and disappears instead. Its to bad the judge didn’t throw him in jail.
I would say that the lawyers put up with this because, even though they might see they have been duped, the longer this goes on, the more money in their pockets.
However it would seem to me that the judge would see this through a different perspective.
Why do you think that the judge hasn’t put his foot down? (or gavel) Any person in their right mind wouldn’t play such games in a court room. Just shows you the gall of the sociopath.
I am sorry that you have to go through this. It must be awful.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 7:26pm
sabrina says:
Witsend, Thanks for asking, I am doing ok. My life has so many twists and turns right now with personal, business, and everything in between that it seems I can’t focus too hard on one thing before another “thing” jumps in front of me! Maybe that is what is keeping my sanity-diverse chaos! Since it is no shock to me now, maybe it is “predictable chaos!” lol
I am keeping lines of communication open with his x GF, and no communication with him is my goal. He lied to me, and denied the abuse – of course- WHY tell the truth when the lie sounds so ridiculous!?!
I know it is hard for her as you said Witsend, to wrap your head around the whole reality of it all- I am struggling and I KNOW how life with an S works or better yet- dosen’t work.
I believe the no conscience part of them enables them to lie mercilessly and so much more convincingly. I’ve read that most people when lying have a certain pattern they will typically do that can tip you off that they are lying. Particularly helpful with children and teenagers- If you “crack the code” and hone in on the individuals unique tendency- Such as a tendency to “always” give more information than needed, or a pattern of “never” giving many details, or even starting an arguement to avoid confrontation when they are not being truthful. Talking slowly, while looking away (to stall while thinking of a plausible story or alibe) or others may be prone to talking fast, (indicating nervousness and insincerity).
With all the S that I have known, I could see no common pattern indicative of being untruthful- OTHER than the fact that his whole life IS a pattern indicative of untruth.
Petra60- Oh my gosh! You have been thru it! I can see how frustrating and god awful expensive this has been- not only financially draining, but mentally, physically, and emotionally. It makes me sick to think of you having to go thru all of this grief and drama.
Just makes you kinda fantasize that there is an extra HOT seat in hell with him being assigned to it…a little note saying.. Just for you, since you were MEANER than Hell, this special seating is especially for you and is HOTTER than HELL!:)
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 10:02pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
ignore theodore – posts have been reported.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 11:30pm
pollyannanomore says:
So one step … did you see those cumulous clouds the other night?: They totally covered the moon – like a marshmallow over a night light – beautiful!
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Thursday, 21 January 2010 @ 12:11am
one_step_at_a_time says:
I did! nothing like a great night sky. The stars are really bright tonight. One thing about living in the country, you get to see the stars come out shining bright.
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Thursday, 21 January 2010 @ 12:16am
pollyannanomore says:
And we really know what they look like now even when shrouded in a cloud of horse shite
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Thursday, 21 January 2010 @ 1:22am
one_step_at_a_time says:
well, it’s the cats…the keep dragging in dead things and knocking over all my lovely tropicals….
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Thursday, 21 January 2010 @ 1:27am
one_step_at_a_time says:
time for me to sign out. you going to be here for awhile polly?
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Thursday, 21 January 2010 @ 1:29am
Petra60 says:
First of all – I would like to share my story with Sabrina because she can emphasize and I with her. Aside from having to deal with my ex’s on-going hateful actions…I have cried bitter tears over my two son’s hurtful behavior…one of which is exactly like his father. He has done horrible things to me and his girlfriends. He was the cutest little boy growing up and I didn’t believe the parents and teachers who complained about him…I chalked it up to teenage anxiety and raging hormones when he grew older…blamed myself when he started drugs and drinking…bailed him out every time he promised to change. He studied computer technology…connected my computer to his network and wrote e-mails to his girlfriend pretending to be me. He stalked me…gave some of my private e-mail to his father…hooked into my phone line somehow and pretended to be calling people from my house…he stole a debit card from me and took money out in small increments…duped me and lied about everything. Sometimes he told stories that were not true just to get me upset.
Just like you Sabrina – I have watched him treat girls with disrespect, verbally and psychologically abuse them, and discard them at the slightest imaginary transgression. I wanted to warn these women and tell them to run – run as fast as you can – but, no matter what I would have said – it would have sounded crazy. My son is good looking, tall and can be the most charming, sincere man on earth – or at least seems to be.
I used to believe that I can save him just by loving him. Not true. He is not and will never be capable of empathy and honest kindness. It must be genetic.
He loses high paying jobs over and over again. He feels entitled to tell people what to do…come late to work…lie on applications…bad mouth people. He, too will end up in jail or under a bridge.
We didn’t wish that for our sons. I cried bitter tears when I read your story. It is my story. I, too, realized that I needed to let him go. It is too difficult to spend more than five minutes in his presence. He will push and push until I get upset…after which he looks at me with cold, dead eyes and tells me “You are not going to cry – are you?” If I don’t – he pushes some more – until I am devastated. I have not seen him for over a year. The other day he called me on my cell phone (I didn’t recognize the number). After I answered – he said: “I have the wrong number” and hung up before I could say anything. Then, my new cell phone froze. It took me three days to get it to work again. I feel paranoid, and would sell my house – but, my ex is still half owner. The moment I would let him know that I want to sell my house – he would do everything in his power to make sure that doesn’t happen.
My older son is married and I see so many similarities between their marriage and mine. He treats his wife a lot better than I was treated – but, Sascha is a workaholic – like his father. He learned how to talk to me from the master abuser, and doesn’t miss an opportunity to let me know that I am the problem. It doesn’t surprise me – but, it hurts. I have not seen him for years, because he was an Army officer stationed in Korea and then Afganistan. Last Christmas – he and his wife promised to come visit (they live approx. 10 hours drive away). I decorated the entire house, and was all excited about their visit when – at the last moment – they wrote an e-mail to inform me that they discussed what they wanted to do for Christmas – and have decided that I should come visit on the 23rd of December and “get back on the road on the 26th”.
I couldn’t believe they were telling me this. Ten hours drive to Cinncinati – ten hours back home – and two days at their house before I can “hit the road”??? When I mentioned that it was hurtful to be told that I could only spend two days at their house – my son told me that they had to “draw boundaries”. It took my breath away.
Boundaries for me who has never stepped over their boundaries. Then – when I told him that he was setting boundaries for the wrong person – he answered: “Well – I have to accommodate three families now.” Meaning his wife’s family – his Dad and his young girlfriend – and me.” I told him that this was too painful to hear and hung up. Have not spoken to him since.
Two days later I found 38 photos on his wife’s facebook of their Thanksgiving holidays. They told me that her family would be visiting for Thanksgiving – instead I saw photos of my ex with his girlfriend..his sister and her family…all of his wife’s family…my younger son. Everyone was laughing and having fun – sitting on the furniture I had given them…using my Thanksgiving recipies…eating of my dishes…surrounded by my paintings…
It broke my heart. Honestly. It was the lowest point in my life. That was worse than loss of money or properties…worse than court dates or paperwork. I had made such an effort to be friends with his wife and her family…supported her the entire time my son was in Afganistan…visited her family and invited them to my house. Everyone thought my ex was an evil man…and there he was…with a woman who didn’t earn the right to be with my family… and everyone was having a good time or pretending to.
My ex wrote an e-mail after he lost in court in November and told me that I will get what’s coming to me… and then he planned this next strike. He had ignored the boys for 35 years – and suddenly – he pretended to be Dad of the year…dragging his new girlfriend onto the scene.
I had always wished that my boys would defend me…tell their father that enough is enough. Instead they tell me that I can only visit for two days because they have other people to take care of. I was a stay-at-home mother – doing everything for my boys…painting while they were asleep to earn some extra money…teaching classes while they were in school so that I could be there for them. I still look young – am a very creative and active person. My students call me the Professor of Life and Art. My friends think that I am the greatest person alive. I think of myself as kind, loving, generous, accommodating, empathic and conscientious. And yet, my believe their father. I have never asked them to take sides…but, they saw what he did to me and they chose to sweep the truth under the rug.
It’s just too much. I read everyone’s stories – and I understand the pain and sorrow. There are days when I truly believe that I can move on…but, then something else happens and I stumble, fall – find myself back in bed – wondering why.
Thank you for everyone’s kind words…it helps.
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Friday, 22 January 2010 @ 9:55pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Petra, I am so sorry you’ve had to go through this.
If it’s any consolation, you sound clear as a bell. Not confused about anything, except why they would treat you like that.
It sounds like you’re in the process of writing them off. I hope you can do that for your own sake. I’m not exactly sure how to say this, but it’s something like the journey being the destination. You had all the experiences you had. Some of them good, some of them bad. But now is now.
You sound like you have a good life. I hope you can enjoy it. Live for yourself. It’s not only the best revenge, but it also attracts more good to you. And you deserve that.
A big hug –
Kathy
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Friday, 22 January 2010 @ 10:56pm
witsend says:
Dear Petra60,
I understand your pain and your sorrow. My heart goes out to you. There is nothing more difficult in life than accepting “this” when it comes to your own flesh and blood.
I have been in this “acceptance stage” for about two years. My son is still a minor, he isn’t even considered an adult yet. But there is a dark side of him that scares the hell out of me. And escalated very quickly during puberty.
Just like you I thought that loving him would be enough. I thought there was STILL a window of opportunity because he was young. That getting him help and taking him to councelling and all the other things I tried to do when I first became aware, there was a problem. Certainly all these things wouldn’t fail. SOMETHING would help turn this around.
Nothing did. Much of the time I felt like I was talking to these people that were supposed to help and no one was hearing what I WAS saying. The thing I heard most was : “Has he broken the law yet?”
Not yet, but he doesn’t think the rules apply to him, not at school, not at home, and not at work…..So seeing as that is the extent of his world right now at this age….I suppose it might be just a matter of time, before he is in trouble with the law. THATS what I was thinking. But I didn’t say it outloud.
This all began two years ago….At this point I have pretty well accepted that I know what I know. I have seen this manifest within him and grow like a cancer. He really seems like a stranger to me. I am tired of trying to explain this to people. No one really gets it.
My son recently moved out. (he is still a minor) But old enough not to be considered a runaway in my state. One of his friends parents offered him a roof over his head. Even though they were aware of the fact that it was against my wishes, him moving out of the house at his age. They were “taken in” by his story of what a terrible mother I am. And how bad he has it at home. So he left.
Just yesterday my son called me and basically was giving me a “story” on how his days were numbered living at his friends house. His friend has gotton himself in a situation and this family might be taking on another “boarder”. (his friends g/f) and that would put my son w/o a place to stay. I knew instantly that there was something “wrong” with this story.
And today I found that my son was grounded for disobeying the “rules” in this household where he is staying. So the honeymoon is over….As they say. And the knot in my stomach is BACK.
Because as much as I didn’t agree with these people taking him in, NOW I know if they tell him he is out……Guess what?
He’s back.
I have just started to be able to go to bed at night w/o that knot in the pit of my stomach and wake up in the morning w/o it there as well. As much as there has been stress involved with him not living here (yet knowing I am responsible for him still because of his age) it has been NOTHING compared with the feeling of him holding me captive in my own house. Because that is what I feel like when he is here. A prisoner in my own home…..I am sick over this.
I knew this wasn’t going to last forever…..I know my son well enough to know that he couldn’t keep up the “good” behavior over there for very long.
So although I am not as far along in this as you are….Your son is grown. I feel your pain. And I don’t see that it ever goes away. Those conflicted feelings. Loving them and not knowing what they are capable of. That fear.
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Friday, 22 January 2010 @ 11:42pm
hens says:
Witt – My xspath’s own mother told me not to get involved with her son ‘after I was hooked’ she said she couldnt do anything with him and she mentioned being afraid of him, she even called him a booger, she warned me to get rid of him and she also said he could not come stay with her..at the time I thot she was cold and heartless, after all I had just called to tell her that he had cut his wrist and I was at my witsend with him – she more or less hung up on me…she knew what she was talkin about – anywho sorry the events have changed with your son – another big ole bear hug from )))HENRY(((
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Saturday, 23 January 2010 @ 1:37am
pollyannanomore says:
Petra … that so sucks. You did all the work through the years and he just shows up out of nowhere and you are relegated to nowhere. I can’t believe they used the word ‘boundaries’ with you – how sick is that??? I know how gut wrenching it is to see pictures that you should have been the main person in and you are exluded – I just can’t imagine how bad it would be after devoting the best years of your life to these people.
There is probably little anyone can say that can console you right now. But please bear in mind the ‘acting’ happy is just that – acting. The true character will emerge in time and when it does they will see that they chose the wrong person … probably too late by then. It is so unfair to you after all you have done.
I hope you are doing whatever you need to nurture yourself during this time. It does sound like you are crystal clear about the whole situation and why you feel upset at it – that doesn’t really help the hurt, but allows you to understand why you feel the way you do. It’s so incredibly unfair how others think they are wonderful and cut the good people out of their lives, co-opting them into the lies and deceit as well. (((((((hugs))))))))
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Saturday, 23 January 2010 @ 6:10am
Petra60 says:
Dear Witsend,
I am so sorry. I remember the knot in my stomach – not knowing what’s going to happen next. I don’t remember how old my son was – certainly over 18 and under 21…we went to drug counseling with him. My ex, me and my son. After a couple of sessions – the therapist told us that he would love to live with us…nice home, good food, access to laundry, television, computer, a car. My ex asked him what it is we could do or should do. The man told us that he can give us a list of “shelters”. That’s all he said. My ex shrugged it off…my son wasn’t especially worried…but, I asked him for the list.
I couldn’t ake it any longer. My body was shutting down. I contracted fibromyalgia, high blood pressure, had nerve pain in my face. Like you – I was constantly on edge.
His father didn’t want the responsibilities associated with being a father – so, he left for months or years at a time. In the end – I always had to deal with it. It was in 2001 – my husband had moved out again…I found Mischa at home – in my bed – with a girl I didn’t know. He wasn’t yet 21 – but, I told him that I have had it. Locked him out of my house and informed him that he is not welcome here any longer.
This was after a string of incidences with drugs, alcohol, stealing, owing a thousand dollars to drug dealers and begging me for the money or they were going to kill him, me or both. I called the police at the time – they didn’t do anything except advise me to pay the money.
As I am writing this – it sounds so unreal. It wasn’t a world I grew up in…it wasn’t anything I could have ever imagined. But, once I locked him out – that was it. He has not been living with me ever since. Of course, my situation was different. My ex helped him rent an apartment – get a student loan – then, washed his hands off him. Since then – I have done a lot of things wrong. It took me many more years to realize that neither my sons nor my ex will ever change. They are so convinced that I am the villain in this game – there is no recovery – there is no going back.
What I am trying to say is: Maybe you don’t have to take your son back? Of course, it depends on your financial situation. I sent my son to a boarding school for a while…sent him to re-hab. There were no easy answers Why do we have to endure the abuse? I have not followed your story – but, has your son done anything that could be reported to the police?
If you do have to take him back – try to avoid him as much as possible. Don’t fall for the “sincere” acts. Don’t get into arguments. Don’t make rules you cannot enforce.
The way I dealt with uncomfortable situations – I would dream about the life I was going to have once I was free. I found comfort in the knowledge that it wouldn’t last forever. (I am not so sure about the situation with my ex:(
Since everyone knows where I live – and since my ex is still tied to me with the properties – I often wonder if I shouldn’t just disappear. I would have to give up everything…my friends…my house…my dreams… but, maybe it would bring me the peace I have always wanted. Should I start over…could I?
Kathleen – thank you for the compliment. I am very clear about what’s happening – but, I am not so sure I am clear about what I should do next. I am selling our townhouse because it’s the only way to pay the legal fees – but, my ex is not signing all of the real estate papers. He has stopped paying one half of the mortgage on that property….I keep wondering why I had the townhouse renovated and why I am paying the mortgage if all the proceeds go to the lawyer…actually, I can’t even sell it now because my ex isn’t cooperating. The lawyers are as frustrated as I am. I wish they would take him to court and get him thrown into jail. I guess they don’t do it so easily with high paying executives who work for a charitable foundation.
I have fought so long and hard for him to abide by the Separation Agreement…the judge already ruled that he has to pay arrearages…I am receiving one half of his income…but, he is making damn sure that I don’t have any money because he stops paying for things he is supposed to pay for. The only way to get things done – is to go back to court – which means more money. It is the most frustrating Catch 22.
Anyhow – wishing everyone a joyful day.
Petra
Thank you
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Saturday, 23 January 2010 @ 1:50pm
witsend says:
Petra60,
When you said…As I am writting this -it sounds so unreal.
I really can relate to that cooment. I feel like that is what the last couple years have been in my life. “Unreal”. When I reflect on ALL of it, it seems so unreal, like a nightmare that you can’t wake up from.
Words often escape me to even explain what EXACTLY just happened, after an interaction with my son. And I am standing right there in the PRESENT of what just happened. It’s so unexplainable though.
All that manipulation, the lack of reality, the spinning & twisting of the words, (his distorted perception) the gaslighting and projection. The absolute CRAZYMAKING he brings into this house. The complexity of just living under the same roof with him.
The truth of the matter is that if he was ANYONE else besides my son I would run for the hills. I would want to be away from it, that bad.
All I know is I can’t take it anymore. I don’t have alot of options just yet because of his age. Legally.
I am kind of damned if I do and damned if I don’t type situation.
You sound like you have been through all of this and more. I am so very sorry that any mother would have to face such an ordeal.
It is so unfortunate that you can’t just “run for the hills” as I put it, and that your hands are tied financially with your X. It is just one more way they assume control. That is the thing about this…Even when they are not in our lives any more in the physical sense they can still “control”, if they want to, in other ways.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 1:25pm
witsend says:
hens,
And the saga continues…..Over here.
You know when you saw how your X’s mother was no longer willing to get involved with him even though he had cut his wrist and was at an all time low…It is natural to think, what the hell is wrong with her? This is her son. How awful. What mother could do this?
Only the mother of a S/P/N. God it makes me wonder what he did to her? And I don’t even know her.
Suicide is a real trigger for me. Including an attempt. And I can’t even imagine a mother not coming to his side after that. So that speaks to me that this woman endured ALOT.
Do you think that as well now? Knowing what you know? Or do you think she was part of the problem?
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 1:38pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hi witty, my sister in horticulture!
is your son doing anything that could result in a few months in jail, say, until he is 18?
it’s SO important to be here. it’s like martial arts training; we learn and learn and learn and then when we are in the situation that calls for our knowledge of their moves to come to the fore it does.
If he makes you spin (that unreal feeling) and takes you out of yourself with his moves maybe you could further deconstruct his particular moves in light of the ’spath moves.’
I wonder if you could write down the things he says and does – very particular words and phrases he has used to gaslight you, or project his behaviors on to others or you, or plee for pity, etc. Really work at nailing them. I suspect it is a repetitive script.
Then write out lines can you use to undermine the script. There have been some great ones mentioned here in the last while: ‘what do you mean by that?, ‘that doesn’t work for me’, etc.
If it is a script (with minor variations) it means you have the opportunity to re-write your end of it, practice watching him go into script and using new ways to protect yourself.
Is this making sense?
x one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:12pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
I ordered that book you suggested, “When a Stranger Calls You Mom”.
I can’t wait to receive it and start reading.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 2:50pm
witsend says:
One Step,
He hasn’t broken the law as far as I know of, at least not to the extent of doing juvenile detention.
He actually has very high aspirations for himself. It is a plan w/o much grounded reality involved, however his mindset is that it will happen. So I believe he has been pretty careful about his risky behavior. And unlike alot of “troubled” teenager although on the outside he has a handful of friends, he is basically a loner.
Once, not long ago (before he left) I was TRYING to have a conversation with him about an older kid he knew, that I THOUGHT maybe he looked up to. (wishful thinking on my part) He told me flat out that he looked up to no one. This kid was nothing.
He told me (with dead serious eyes) that HE is “special”. His friends, peers, and everyone around him that he knows is very ordinary. And they will all go onto live very ordinary lives. Except him. Nothing will stop him.
My son is delusional. As he has really done NOTHING to make this grand plan he has for his future, take place. He has done nothing EXCEPT convince himself that it will happen.
This was a conversation w/o his usual spin of words, (MY words)(although I WAS spinning when it was over).
But it was very un-nerving on many levels. His dismassal of others (his “ordinary” peers), his grandious sense of self, and mostly the way he delivered it. Matter of FACT.
I think I get what your saying. To see if there is a pattern. And write it down, because Lord knows it becomes more unreal as you try to make sense of what just happened. I do find it very hard sometimes to GROUND myself. He lives in the fantasy world, not me.
He is also very cocky when I use the one liners on him.
Such as if I said to him “what do you mean by that” He would say: “you think your so smart, figure it out”.
And the bottom line is I am better having no or little conversations with him, and much less interaction with him. Since he left home and I have delt with situations with him from “afar” it has been easier to stay grounded, that is for sure.
If he is here he will “punish” me in may ways. Some things I don’t even realize until they are happening. Such as if I am away from home and he is home. My animals. For one.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:09pm
witsend says:
Rosa,
Be sure to let me know what you think about this book. I am curious if you think it might be helpful in your situation.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:10pm
hens says:
Witty – As with so much of my X’s life I dont know the real fact’s or the truth, just what he told me and what I was able to piece together. In other words ‘his side of the story’..And of course he painted her to be bad. I know he would call her and talk to her but never anything personal, just weather, sports etc…He told me she abandoned him at age two and his grandparents raised him, was this the truth? I dont know. I asked her if that was so and she said she didnt abandon him, his father did. Oh My – Well whatever happened he did have a difficult childhood. Get this – he told me when he was 17 he was acused of molesting his neice and nephew and was so upset that anyone would think he did that that he left town that nite and never went back…hmm makes me wonder if he was guilty, if not why did he run? Witt my X is a dark character with lot’s of anger, will easily go into a rage. Thinks he is right and there is nothing wrong with him but with everybody else. Is 43 and owns nothing. Has never lived on his own, but does work, but changes jobs about every 2 or 3 years. I think his mother just couldnt handle him from an early age. My X does not take orders from anyone….I dont know – when I met him I could see he was troubled and tried to help and look where it got me…I never actually met his mother..but she really didnt want him around, holidays or any days. Like i said, she said he was a booger and I shouldnt have anything to do with him..She did say she sent him money alot when he was younger but was never repaid…oh I am rambling again – I just dont know, he was and is and always will be a mystery – and I can only avoid him and hope he never comes here again….
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 3:22pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
on no witty, re the animals.
i hear that you feel ungrounded – and that was the focus of my post – tools for seeing sociopathic behavior for what it is and increasing your ability to ground through that knowledge, and in your land of wit and real.
But what i am thinking as i am writing this, is how incredibly hard it would be for me to accept that a child of mine was a sociopath. Especially when they are young, as teenagers can demonstrate all kinds of behaviors that are challenging, so we wouldn’t necessarily see socipathic behavior for what they are at so early an age.
And even if I could accept it deep and thorough, I would have to then still work with the reality of it day in and day out; an extremely difficult situation. Developing acceptance and strategies would be vital. But there would still be my broken heart to deal with.
My heart goes out to you Witty.
best,
one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 4:06pm
witsend says:
One Step,
I think that is the major difference when you are trying to face “the facts” when it is one of your own children.
I am not in any way dismissing or minimizing the pain of dealing with an S/P/N on any other level. But when it is your child even the THOUGHT of “this” is more devistating than I can tell you.
It goes AGAINST the very nature of your love and bond with your child. It is OPPOSITE of everything you should be thinking. Or doing, or saying….. You know, as a mother you would step in front of an oncoming semi truck to push your child out of the way from being hit.
And I am sitting here trying to think what can I possibly do to protect myself from my own kid?
Every thought that passes through my head right now is conflicting with the thought that was before it. I love him, but I don’t want him near me. I want to help him, but I can’t. DOES that even make any sense? Of course it doesn’t. But that is how I feel.
I do, have to work with the reality of it day in and day out. (as you said) Because many days I just want to scream at the top of my lungs…NO! This isn’t possible. This is still my sweet little boy. He can get help.
I am still unable to “label” him with any permanent personality disorder, outloud or in the written word. I don’t use S/P/N to refer to him. I prefer to think of it “outloud” and in my head, as he has THE tendancys….He “fits” critera to grow into a full blown personality disorder. But my heart is surrounded with this darkness….
I used to think that my intellect saw the horror of the truth but that my heart would never accept it.
Now even that part of me feels the conflict within….Its almost as if my heart knows the truth and is in conflict with the brain?
If he comes here I will need strategies to deal with it. I don’t even know where to begin with that? Its a catch 22 for sure.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:12pm
lightsaber says:
witsend – As a mother myself, I know exactly what you mean when you say that you would step in front of a truck to save your child. It absolutely goes against nature not to love your child and protect them. The natural, healthy order of things is to want the child’s life to go on beyond your own, so putting yourself at risk, doesn’t seem wrong.
However, when psychopathy enters the picture, it turns the natural order of things on it’s head and we are left reeling. I can’t express fully how truly heartbreaking it is for me to read of your situation.
There is a different angle to it then my own encounter with a sociopath, Yes, I bonded with him. But, once awakening to the horror and realization of what I was dealing with, I now only have to deal with my own issues and the fallout from his campaign to destroy me AND cut him out of my life. To do that with one’s own child – I can only imagine devastation to your heart.
My heart goes out to you witsend. I wish I knew what else to say to help you beyond that I hope you can find the best appropriate professional counseling for your situation, if you don’t have it already.
Peace
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:38pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
witty – actually it makes a great deal of sense.
all of it.
and it sounds painful as hell.
both because he is your child, and because you are in a time of coming to terms – and in my experience the amount of pressure built up in those times by all the ‘yes/no/maybe/couldn’t be/ must be’ is horrendous in and of itself.
The process of coming to terms is full of a sense of confusion, despair and a sense of living in an altered reality….not here, not there, not anywhere.
i’m sorry, i don’t know the details of your story with your son – is there mental health care worker seeing your son? do they ‘get it’?
best,
one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:47pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
lightsaber: we were posting at the same time to witty. but i SWEAR, you were reading my mail!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 5:52pm
lightsaber says:
haha one_step yeah I think anyone with empathy can understand where witsend is coming from
I’m having a major conundrum myself and not sure how to deal with it. For the time being I’m just stewing about it and hopefully something will come to me.
I have found the ex targeting someone online. I am in a position (because I know his MO, interests, and his handles) where I can monitor his public online communications. He IS A CYBERPATH.
I have found him really honing in on one woman as a target. HE is using ALL of his usual Spath charming victim pity ploy. This woman is a past victim. She has made it very clear publicly how she is STILL recovering, YET she is falling for him big time. Hell, it takes one (me) to see one.
I don’t know what to do!!!
(((
I have my own (and my kids) safety to be concerned about FOREMOST.
I don’t know how to anonymously let this woman know what she’s dealing with. Anything I can think of doing, I KNOW will tip my hand and may cause him to strike out against me. He IS VIOLENT.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:06pm
lightsaber says:
Gawd now I’m crying and really angry after writing that. I’ve been holding this in all day and seeing it written makes me want to explode.
This VICIOUS INHUMAN CREEP has damaged women in 3 F**KING COUNTRIES!!!!
THE U.K
CANADA
THE U.S.A.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:09pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
lightsaber: stewing is good. you are distilling it into it’s parts: desire to help; safety for you and your kids; and how to do it safely.
I have ‘cooked’ this stuff for a couple of months for myself. I think that I am sorting it out. It has been very important for me to go slowly and consider all the ramifications of my outing the spath.
Our situations are different, and the consequences are different. And safety has to be our number one concern. It’s taken a while for me to ‘get’ that – risk taking adventurer that i am, to hell and be damned with anyone trying to intimidate me’.
I didn’t back down from the idea – i just thought harder about how to do it safely. No going off half cocked in anger. stealth mode is my watch phrase.
gotta go, late yet again!
one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:24pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
lightsaber – erggh, wish i could stay and talk to you. i will be back late tonight.
x to cheek, one step
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:30pm
lightsaber says:
thanks for the moral support one step )))hugs(((
i can’t afford to freak out – surrounded by people and i can’t start falling apart
but i’m having a really hard time with this – taking deep breaths and trying to keep it together
yes STEALTH is the answer
TAKING A PAGE out of the Spath book
Turn their own game against them.
It’s like the French Resistance during the second world war. When you are fighting evil you can’t go running into the village square screaming that about traitors and enemies. You’d get shot and laughed at for being an idiot.
Covert and stealth is not bad, when you are fighting the enemy within.
you have a wonderful night one step *x on cheek* right back…how artsy! LOL
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:36pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
TAKING A PAGE out of the Spath book – absofuckinglutely!
Covert and stealth is not bad, when you are fighting the enemy within. wow – this is true on more than one level….
running out doooor….
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 6:39pm
sabrina says:
Witsend, I am trying to catch up here, I was out of town, but read your posts from over the weekend. I am so sorry you are also going thru it. You are where I was at a few years ago with my son.
I know exactly your feelings of regretting that he isn’t with you, worrying about his whereabouts- but being so damned relieved that the horror of “being captive in your own home” with him is -at least for the time being not an issue.
I feel your best chance at somewhat dealing with this horrid situation IS for your son to live somewhere else. I learned quickly that my life would be hell with him around- NO ecseptions. Every small glimmer of hope that he could be normal, fun,good, honest, honorable,etc. was shot. You die alittle inside daily if they are around daily. At least if they are somewhere else, you suffer LESS .
You will still be drug into many, many dramas even if he is somewhere else, and EXPECT him to have stints of when he can no longer mooch off his friends, they will all soon tire of him, and he will beg to come home. Finally, I had to tell my son- FInd a place, you can’t live here.(you can’t even imagine how that kills your soul say it) but you will soon have no choice as he gets older.
My son created, and had me “living” with chaos
all with such an easy, nonchalant manner about him. It seemed like he was all so “bored” with life, and was energized by screaming and causing a fight with me out of nowhere. Then after essentially taking my heart out, putting it into a blender, and then handing it back to me, he would incredously ask a “favor” of me- another privalege of some sort that he felt entitled to, as if nothing had happened!
If not out of sheer boredom, his rants had a pattern of manifesting at ANY time he didnt get his absolute way 100%. If I said yes you can use my car AFTER you take out the trash, it would escalate to almost violent proportions ,reducing me to shaking and sobbing OR going BALLISTIC from my own anger and outrage. He has laughed and mocked my tears of brokeness.
If he succeeded in making my head spin around with anger he would get a self righteous, nasty tone of “great example mom, this is why I HATE you!! You get angry over nothing, I ONLY asked to use the car!
Allowing them to “know” you is leaving your heart, soul, AND not to mention- all your valuables at risk.They will do what you despise or fear the most-When I told him how disappointed I was that he cursed around me, and that I refused to allow him to use that language toward me- he made a POINT to curse worse and worse, laughing mercilessly. My preference to safely keep doors locked certainly caused him to make a point to leave all doors open. It goes on and on.
Wisend, don’t feel guilty that you are better/saner/at peace without him. Enjoy the calm moments. Unfortunately, it usually is the calm b4 the storm. As u know, my son still manages to get my blood pressure up quite frequently. I still feel “obligation” to try to protect him, but he always finds a way to bash me for it.Take care of yourself, its a better investment.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 10:19pm
sabrina says:
Petra, Thank you for sharing your story with us.I can hear in your posts how brokenhearted you are with your boys. I agree with what I think Witsend said- it just hurts so much more when its your child. It cuts deeper. Like you, I have had a S husband, and now my 21 yr old son. I’d take the X husband over the child any day. As painful as it really was, my pain is not nearly as gutwrenching with an x. You work toward healing with an x, but what is it that we are working “toward” with our sons?
There’s no closure, no “getting over” him, no hopes of “I don’t think of him as often, like with an x. The worst is the ” I dont love him anymore” that will NEVER be with a child. At least with the x, we are granted the mercy of letting go of the love after a time. How DO we cope? I wish there were more articles isolating this situation.
Petra, I am proud of you for all the efforts you put into raising those children. You didnt do anything wrong. I believe , if they had a choice, your boys would NOT be this heartless and cold.Having no conscience is like a disability. Rather the S sees it or not. I grieve for my sons “missed” opportunities in life.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 10:39pm
witsend says:
Sabrina,
Yes I know that you have felt that “conflict” within. And also that DREAD, the absolute dread of knowing that he will do exactly what I despise or fear the most.
Even when you don’t share with them what that might be. It seems he has the ability to “read into” that. And he can NAIL it every time.
And no matter how simple the task at hand might be….They turn it into a “making you crazy” situation. Such as you mentioned about the door locking/unlocking.
NOTHING, I mean nothing can be simple when it comes to him. If I asked him to simply hang up the phone so it will charge he will leave it stashed somewhere to die.
And because they are so adept at creating REAL crisis in your life, you don’t even use your energy to ask why the door was left unlocked (AFTER you locked it) or why the phone was found dead (after YOU hung it up) or any other thing that isn’t a major…Because you are always waiting for the real crisis to surface. And it always does. The shit ALWAYS hits the fan.
For awile my son was telling me I was going deaf….Claiming that he had answered me when I would call upstairs to him. (when he hadn’t) Or that he had told me something that he didn’t ever mention. Blamed my hearing.
It is EXHAUSTING. Not to mention how it plays on your emotions.
I can tell you that I haven’t missed the daily drama for one minute since he has been gone. Instead of holding my breath, I have again learned to breath & exhale, like a normal person.
My heart skips a beat every time the phone rings but I was even getting better with that. Until just recently.
Because of his age I am still in a stranglehold with this situation. I can’t just bolt the door shut, so to speak, in the legal sense. That is why the knot has returned in my gut….The chaos is about to come back.
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 11:04pm
ErinBrock says:
Wits:
I can empathize with you.
I have 3 months and 18 days to go before age 18 and I don’t have to be responsible for the chaos, liability, lack of responsibility and downright neglect of others feelings and respect.
What you wrote about NOTHING being simple is so true and it is sooooo crazy making.
I have found now that I work my days around the child. If I ask him to prearrange a ride….his way of prearranging is to call and say he’s ready….If I ask to go to bed at a decent time…..2am is his idea of desent. If I ask him to shovel…..5 days later he makes an attempt and gives up because snow is too heavy…..
I can’t rely on this one for help….yet being a citizen in MY home, there are certain things I do expect.
and this is my mistake!
It’ll be easier when he’s gone….and now graduation is all but confirmed OUT! He managed to fail 2 classes this first semester…..putting him 5 behind ….to make up in order to graduate in June…..NOT happening….I can assure you.
I am so disappointed, heart broken and I just know…..the punishment of going to manipulate his father is coming….I just know this….
When i read Petras post about how her boys hurt her at the holidays….I see myself in this position soon enough.
Sabrinas posts about her kids…..
I think he thinks he will be able to punish me and ‘get back’ at me for cutting him off and if I need to kicking him out…..
He MUST learn how to opperate in a society climate.
It’s NOT about just HIM….but he thinks it is….Rules are everywhere….and NOT always for breaking dear!!!
He has this odd immature nature.
there is something I have not been able to put my finger on…..
There seems to be a gap in his reality and maturity.
I will give a simple example…..
Today….I had to BITE MY LIP!!!
He wanted to enter the HS talent show….
(a little history….he’s NEVER followed through with anything, yet wants to be the best at everything….so this translates into getting the outfit du jour and this ends the effort to whatever it is he’s interested in at the ‘moment’) He does whatever it is for about 1 month……then stops and takes on a new interest….and goes obsessive over this new interest.
He’s done this his whole life…..since he was little…..
SO now…..I have encouraged him to do whatever he wants his whole life….and the past few years I have sat back and watched him, not jumped and ran and bought the outfits or gear he needs to see if this latest will stick! I had a mt. bike track built in my back yard about 8 years ago….he insisted….and we had the room and the landscapers were here doing other things, so I had them clear the course $1000. dollars…at his direction…..he’s used it like 4 times….after track was built, then he wanted a motorcycle…..uh, yeah…..NOT! He has thrown this in my face…..you NEVER support my passion! I coulda been a pro motorcross rider….yeah, yeah….coulda shoulda woulda…..If I HAD ONLY HAD BOUGHT THE GEAR!!! NOT! YOU WANT IT….. WORK FOR IT KID!
The one time I don’t comply….I get shit!
After that…..I STOPPED!!!! Now it’s up to him to purchase his own shit…..dance shoes, snowboard gear, ski gear, clothing, climbing ropes etc….and it all sits idle…..then he sells it for much less….hes’ like a pawn junkie…. makes me sick!!!
So….today…..the talent show….I’m thinking what the hell is he going to do…..Last night he got obsessive about playing his base guitar…..mind you…..he’s a beginner….and I’m thinking…..wtf??? Is he serious?
He’s 17, a beginner at base and he’s trying out for a TALENT show? I hate to sound negative……but by 17……I remember our talent shows where kids would play awesome piano that have played their whole lives, or danced ballet, really well…..or sang a beautiful song……Not a kid playing da, da, daaaa, da, da, da-da…….da, da, da…..da-da-da…..over and over…..That song we all know, and attempt to play if we ever get on a guitar…..the standard ‘chopsticks’ song for guitar.
He REALLY thought he had a chance to win the talent show…..
So…..here I go again….I won’t be the buzz kill……I’ll take him down and wish him luck and tell him to have fun and do his best!
Then he comes home….(predictably) ALL BUMMED OUT! Takes it out on me……the ‘easy’ one…..
He said they asked him to stop and asked him if he wanted to be a stage hand.
He was like….A STAGE HAND?????
shocked!
Of course, he said he was nervous and dropped his base on the way up and the E cord got messed up……
I’m thinking…..honey…..AIYaiYAi.
It was the bases fault……
Oh, yes….thats it…..it couldn’t be because you have just started playing and not put the effort in……and just because you own a base……doesn’t mean it get infused into you to play!!!!! Osmosis of guitar ownership.???
I DON”T GET THIS?????
What is it?????
Honest to god….what is it?
IS THIS NORMAL???? I’m thinking yes….but for a 10 year old!
I didn’t want him to make a fool of himself, with his ego being bigger than his talent on base…by far……but I bit my tongue….because it didn’t matter what I said….damned if I do, damned if I don’t….because he doesn’t view us on the ’same team’. He doesn’t see me EVER trying to help him, guide him and wanting the best for him….
I get blamed for not listening…..unlike you wits…I haven’t been accused of going deaf…..YET!
This is where the tape recorder comes in handy…..
It’s like you can push rewind…..and it’s all there.
I’m tired of living with a 17 year old in chaos….EVERYTHING…..EVERYDAY…..is chaos…..
I know it’s gonna be tough in 3 months and 18 days….I have given him all I can…..and I just can’t seem to get over the choices he makes…..because I can see where he’s headed….HE CAN”T.
I’d love some advise on what it is…..why is there a short circuit in his reality.
If you talked to him, you’d love him and you’d think he was on track to graduate…..he’s got the charm and the talk down…..he’s a nice kid…..but he’s never telling the real truth……only his percieved truth…..which is POLAR opposite than his reality….
He still thinks he’s graduating….yet makes NO effort to kick it in gear and get what he needs to done. He’s 5 friggen classes BEHIND! Second semester of senior year???? What doesn’t he get?
I think he thinks he will get by ‘just because’.
So what do I do……I just don’t want this heartache….who would?
Petra…..lead me through……give me tips to avoid being set up by the heartache of my son……
I don’t tell him anything about my life…..hide papers etc….becasue I JUST KNOW….he will betray me with his father one day…..
When his father took them…kidnapped them, removed from school abruptly and moved out of state…..he was the one participating in the bad talk of me…..until it didn’t work…..and back fired…..HE was the kid who wouldn’t speak to me, and told me to stop faking it when he called and wanted me to ’ship’ the dog down to him…..and i told him I didn’t wish tp speak to him about it as I had just received another radiation treatment and wasn’t feeling well and in isolation, he wanted the dog because it was the only thing I had left ……Just like his father…..he was going for the jugular! I WILL NEVER FORGET THIS! I was destroyed by the effort!!!
So……this changed my thoughts of him (child)…..and I knew what he was capable of…..and I NEVER thought he was….but that was my heads up.
So….how long do I let it go…..18 in May, no more school in June……and I think he’s gotta go…..locks changed, give him the money I owe him for working the past few summers…..to get him started and see ya! He doesn’t work, doesn’t help out much….without MAJOR, MAJOR delay and drama…..
There is no way he can make it on his own….and he’s burned bridges left and right…..and I guess it is what TOugh love is all aobut…..the tough part is on me.
He won’t be taken in with chances……You give and he takes….and he makes sure you give first and all you end up with is an IOU. Which never occurs.
Wits…I agree…it is sooooo exhausting!!!!! I am afraid that the same thing will happen as when i booted his father…..once son is out….I will get sick again……like a detox from the stress of living like this…..
There are times where he’s great for the most part…..but if I have any expectations of help or being a man…..forget it!!!
Wits….I think of you often……
Sabrina…..I appreciate your posts…..
Petra…..I see myself in your shoes very soon!! And it scares me to go through the pain of losing a child….in order to ‘protect’ my own feelings.
Ladies….what the hell can we do?????
I would be fine if he wanted a relationship with his father…..HIS relationship….NOT one based on control over me…..betrayal of me……to gain some sort of sick relationship that will end in sorrow with the both of them anyways…..AFTER MY SON BETRAYS ME…..and the pain is there…
I have to mentally prepare myself for this…..cuz it’s gonna get bad in 3 months and 18 days!!!! AND COUNTING!!!!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 2:39am
ErinBrock says:
Sorry….that was loooonnnggg……just upset and coming to a head!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 2:55am
ErinBrock says:
You fight and fight and fight to protect them, raise them well and ALONE….and they shit on you????
What’s up with that…..
They’re kids!!! OURS!!!!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:00am
geminigirl says:
Dearest witty and all of you, Wits, You know my situation, it is very much like yours.The only good thing is my 45 year old daughter doesnt live with us.I havent seen her in 13 months, and have been in totalNC since the end of June last year. Those of you who know me know my story, the lies, the fraud, the emotional abuse, the con tricks, the crocodile tears, the rotten dirty tricks played, the cruelty, the heartless ness, the total lack of remorse, empathy, guilt,or any semblance of humanity. I gave hera boundary, one apology, but even if it would happen, you all know it would mean NOTHING , only an excuse to touch me for more money. Over the last 3 years she has conned over A$10,000 out of me.Now she has lost her home, her husband,,her kids, her Mum, good friends, countless great jobs, her car, credit rating, she is still in debt up to her eyes. And the latest I found out a couple of weeks ago that she embezzled A$62,000 from a company she worked for, “laundering it” thru another firm,a nature Mag where she hada great job. Now I know why she lost that great job with the nature Mag.
She has been “forgiven” A$50,000 of her fraud, but still owes them A$12,000, which after 2 years theyve seen nothing of. I cant understand why she wasnt prosecuted. I have been ina daze for weeks over this. But as Oxy said,”If she can steal and defraud her own mother, she can do it to anyone!” your right, Oxy!her ex hubby said to me,” M, she will never apologise to you, and she will never change.”I cant believe I gave birth toa liar and a thief. I am heartbroken. Love and {{HUGS}} Gem.XX
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:04am
geminigirl says:
EB I feel for you in your dilemma with your son, been there exactly with my dear daughter! Both of them! Funny, your sad story brought back a sad memory. Id left their dad, {unfortunately I had to leave the girls with him, they were at the time 17 and 19.} They said they were Ok with him, and as hed never ever hit them in his life, I felt they were safe. They came to my tiny rented flat every Sunday, for Sunday lunch. I was so filled with wall to wall guilt for havin g had to leave them, and I missed them so much, esp. my beautiful blonde younger daughter, the 17 year old going on 35.
Shed been to a party the night before and she was tired, so after lunch, she had a nap on my double bed.I lay down next to my lovely sleeping daughter,and smelled her soft long blonde hair. My tears fell into my ears, and ran onto her hair.
She woke up and said”Do you mind? Get off! Your wetting my hair!” Shortly after , they left, I saw them to the cross roads, they were talking and laughing, without a care in the world, and they didnt once look back to wave at me. As for me,if Id been Lots wife,looking back as I did, my tears would have turned me into a pillar of salt.I went back to my tiny, lonely litle flat and I cried and cried. They had shared this with me,
“Dad says youll come back when your hungry, well starve Mum out!” Apparently they thought this was funny! Should have been a clue right there that they were all 3 spaths. Love, Gem.XX
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 6:09am
ErinBrock says:
Gem….
OMG….I cried when I read your story about laying down next to your daughter as your tears fell…..
I could so relate to that! It is just like digging a knife in when your hurting and treated so very calously.
And I’m sorry for your confusion and numbness….at times we feel strong….and others we are just so confused….Two steps forward, one step back…..
We just gotta try and sneak in a few extra steps forward so we are that much ahead of the grief…(with strength!) when it’s time to step back…..
I am so scared for what I just know is in my future with this child……I DON”T WANT THIS FOR HIM!!!!!
I DIDN”T RAISE HIM TO BE LIKE THIS……
He’s not a bad person…..but to me he can be so horrid at times…..
I told my gf that OMG….what would he be like if I wasn’t around and he was raised with his father…..
I remember holding my son and crying and he rubbed my back and wiped my tears…..now he looks at me and has called me a ‘C*nt’….and told me I’m a worthless person….
A FUCKING WORTHLESS PERSON……He’s just damn lucky to have a mother like me….I have given him way too much of myself…..
Gem…..this is why….WHY everyone says to concentrate on US…..because we give so much to others and get shit on, left or nothing…….
If we don’t give so much, then we are NOT so shocked when we are left….
But it’s much harder with a child…..It was the only way I knew how to be a mother….give it my all…….but I do believe I gave too much…..
I think a child like this one would have been better off being left alone like a latchkey kid……and having a mother more interested in herself and not home…..having to fend for himself…..
I homeshcooled them, traveled with them, taught them lessons, spoke to them like valued citizens/children with value and worth, conversed with them, showed them less fortunate, volunteered with them and taught them compassion…..
MY GOD….when I was sick, I would crawl to the microwave and lay on kitchen floor and heat up some dinner, when HE decided to arrive home from youth group……and crawled back into my bed and he would come in and eat it in my bed and chat…..CRAWLING! I would crawl to my car and drive to his bike races and sit in my car because I couldnt get out. I took him and a date to the military ball…..an hour away and took them to dinner (as I sat in car)…..PAID for it….got his date flowers…..rewrapped them……AND waited for dance to be over while I froze in a friends trailer in the snow for 4 hours……as I am sick as hell…..I had just had 2 strokes and it was a week before I was hospitalized for 2 weeks!!!!!
My ‘life’ couldn’t stop when I got sick…..Mothers lives NEVER STOP!!!!
And then we get shit on!
I don’t know…..this feeling is rivaling being married to the S.
I knew the shit was going to hit the fan once I knew he isn’t graduating…..and I am told I shouldn’t care….it’s his choice….
BUT IT”S PATHETIC!!!!!
I guess I am feeling like im in a ‘holding’ pattern…..
I want back my energy…..ALL OF IT…..and I feel like he is robbing me!!!!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 6:45am
sabrina says:
Gem, I also cried when I read your story, and can sooo identify with all of u- Erin, Wits- Your stories resonant with me unbelievable. I too was the kind of mom who worked hard to give my son everything, not just material things, but full commitment- blood, sweat, and tears. We all have. Erin- how strange- my son also blames alot of the reason he wasnt a pro circuit motorcross”star” on me. We purchased bike after bike, sacrificing alot to make sure he had all the gear, etc. Now he says that I jinxed every race when I was there- he liked it better when I wasnt around- but I NEVER SUPPORTED him- according to him. To hear him state all of his percieved injustices that he “endured” with me as his mom, I think WHERE is this coming from??? BOTTOM LINE-His reality is false- He is cunning enuf to make you doubt your OWN MIND, and the “smear campaign” to anyone listening of me would make them “believe” my son’s delusional stories.(If you know the movie about Eminem-the rapper,growing up in a ghetto, thats how my son portrays HIS middle class, “cushy” life- utterly ridiculous!
After he got out of jail, he comes over the other nite, to pick up some of his things. It was just eerie how he looked as tho “nobody was home”, he looks like crap (once a good looking kid who cared), but from behind those eyes, theres no glimmer that anyone has residence there.
I CAN”T get that look out of my head! I cried when he left. I couldnt resist but to send some chili that I had made, and fruit with him. He claimed he didnt get the letter I wrote him, as predicted, so I gave him a copy that I had made in case he didnt get in while in jail. This letter had lots of bible scripture I felt compelled to give him. I still try to “break thru” its really sad.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 10:21am
one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – i would never take as much as you gave, but i could have used you as a mom.
in fact, i could use you now.
hugs.
one step
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 10:42am
OxDrover says:
Dear E B,
As you know from my two years+ of blogging here, I well know how it is to have a son/child turn on you, disrespect and abuse you. All teenagers are “monsters” and egocentric to one degree or another I think, but some of them get over it and some get worse (the disordered ones).
“Tough love” is the only way it can be handled, I think, but sometimes even that doesn’t work, (Witsend’s example) and you get caught between a rock and a hard place, unable to have any control or to exercise any consequences without putting literally your life in jeopardy. Remember Witsends boy threatening to burn her house down if she crossed him.
It is about CONTROL, not the normal “independence,” that they practice. Consequences so not matter to them. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that they are RUINING their lives and throwing away opportunities for education and a good life, but they are only interested in CONTROL over you, not “independence” of choices. BIG differences in the two.
As our kids get older we have to let them make more and more choices so that by the time they are legally “independent” they can make wiser choices out in the world, but if they refuse to allow us to do this without major “screw ups” like legal problems, thefts etc. there isn’t much we can really DO.
Just like Witty said, everyone said to her “just MAKE HIM” take his medication? How? At gun point? He’s 16-17 yrs old for goodness sakes and how is she to FORCE him to do anything? You can force a 2 year old to sit in a chair if you have to hold him while he kicks and screams, and maybe a 5-6 year old, but that’s about all the “force” you can exert and even then, not when you are not there physically. If a kid is unwilling to abide by the rules and doesn’t dread the consequences then there is nothing you can do to stop them from doing whatever it is that they are doing that you deem “bad.”
I kept up the denial and the fantasy that there was some “magic words” I could say and he would see what he was doing to his life, how he would go to jail and lose all hope of a good life. NOPE! NOT there, there ARE NO magic words. If a “carrot” won’t motivate them and a “stick” won’t deter them, you are SOL completely and that is what the situation with a young P is like. I think the sooner we realize that and let them go on their independent way and stop trying to save them from themselves the better off we are.
I applaud you in deciding to give your son whatever money he has coming and send him on his way—and change the locks—I wish I had done that with both my biological sons, even though my oldest biological son is not a psychopath, he has some “problems” that I tried to “help him” with and I realize now I just ENABLED him. He’s on his own now, and I realize part of his problem is that I kept the extreme consequences for his bad choices from hitting him in the face as they should have….I over looked them, pretended they had not happened, etc. mitigated the consequences…..and I should not have done that.
As for the “talent” show, let him do it and get the consequences whatever they are. Let him spread his wings and get knocked down, might do him some good. My heart goes out to all of us here who have children with “problems” whether they are psychopathically disordered or just “teenagers” seeking independence. It’s a hard job raising kids.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:39am
ErinBrock says:
I so want to believe he’s ‘just’ a teenager doing ‘normal’ teenage independance….
But on the other hand…. I know better too!
He’s not out stealing, drinking, drugs (I think, although I am NOT naive…too)…..but he’s home, socializes with the rest of us and hangs around…..he attends all the youth groups 3x a week…..he’s just a misfit…..hanging with other misfit kids in a small town…..
They are misfits because they don’t have one or other parent in their lives, they don’t dress or go along with the jajority of cool kids clothing styles….for money reasons….and they go to church youth groups…..
But….my kid is learning about being a christian as he judges me constantly and calls me a c*nt? Not helping the houselhold etc…. WTF is that……I call that a safe place to be accepted, and a social life…..but nothing he is really interested in or is ‘living’. It’s a fake front for him?
Today I woke up pissed again….he is late for school EVERYDAY!! EVERY DAY!!!!! By at least 20-45 minutes…..
He knows what time it starts….but he misses the ride…..then I have to take him because that is the deal I made with the school……Just get him there……
SO it IS control over me…..that’s it.
But today…..I stayed up all night working, because I have been too frazled to get this shit done and it needed getting done and I am not disturbed in the middle of night……so I pulled an all nighter…..at 4:30 I am ready to hit the sack and I thought…..No I will wait until 6:30 to wake kids up and make sure all are up…..this is what I did……Hes’ up…..and I stated, Okay can you all get yourselves off today….I packed lunches etc…yeah, yeah mom..no worries…….I go to bed, am just falling back to sleep and at 8:30 I get a call….From him….Mom….can you take me to school….I fell back asleep…..
I WAS PISSED……If I knew he was going to be late, I would have gone to sleep at 4″30 and got some rest myslef!!!
I will also say he’s famous for starting the shower to ‘warm’ it up….and going back to sleep……steaming up his room and bathroom until literally the paint peels off the walls….
WTF>>>>>WHO”S PAYING THE WATER BILL??????
He’s also famous for NOT going to bed at a reasonable hour….HENCE NOT WAKING UP……
He refuses to believe this is the reason!!!! REFUSES!!!
again…control….
Your right oxy…..I just so want to believe he will ’see the light’…..and what is frustrating to me is……he’s coming to the end of the tunnel and I”M GONNA HAVE TO BE THAT TRAIN THAT HITS HIM!!!! and pushes him out!
I DON”T WANT TO DO THAT!!!!! But I will have to!
3 months 18 days and counting……
Those are gonna be HIS magic words!
As for the talent show……he was asked to stop and ivited to be on stage crew…..
Ofcourse, not because he sucked…….but becasue it was the guitars fault!!!
I’ve got to be ‘ready’ to let him go…..or push him out and onto the tracks of life……
I’m doing him no good!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 12:20pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
EB,
This is called by the therapists “disordered thinking.” I know because I’ve been through so many diagnostic procedures with my son. Who I don’t talk about here very much, because I’m not exactly in the same situation as others of you describe.
But in dealing with this, I have decided one thing. As stressful and frustrating and draining as it is, my job is to keep my own head straight and to take care of myself. It doesn’t mean that I lose my compassion, or forget to stay aware that I may be able to help with his issues, but I live for myself first.
Sometimes that has meant simply backing away. I’ve stopped talking to him for long period of time. If he starts something, I tell him how it looks to me. But I don’t get involved with trying to change him or fix him, if he’s not open to it.
I don’t offer him things, including help with finding help, unless he get miserable enough to come to me and ask for help. I don’t give him my opinion of his life or what he needs to do. And I don’t look for anything from him, except telling him him when he’s not fulfilling some commitment he made, and how I feel about that. And telling him what I want from him, when I want something. (Whether I get it is up to him, and I just deliver the information and walk away.) I arrange my life so I am not dependent on him.
In other words, I make my reality the wall he has to get through if he wants to deal with me.
People have their own realities, disordered or not. We can’t inject our realities into their heads. The only power we have is to hold firm in ourselves. And if we are dealing with someone we cannot communicate with or find common ground with, we also need to pay attention to our own safety and what this is costing us. And be prepared to cut the cord, drop the iron curtain, or whatever you want to call it.
I really believe that it’s pointless to maintain assumptions of mutual caring and support with someone who isn’t doing their side of the mutuality. When it comes to our children, it’s really difficult to get ourselves out of the idea that we’re the parents, and maybe if we just add a little more affection or generosity, or or maybe if we try to teach them a little harder about the repercussions of their actions, or try to find the silver bullet, whatever it is, that we’ll be able to recover the child we once knew.
When they hit the late teens or young adulthood, they’re making the decision about how their going to act and how they’re going to view life. And I think the best favor we can give them is honesty about how we feel and how this is affecting us, and then a withdrawal of support for behaviors that are selfish, self-destructive and damaging to us and the rest of the family. And that includes playing along with their assumptions that they can be abusive and selfish and still get all the “goodies” that go along with being a valued participant in household or family life.
I’ve got a disordered and depressed son on my hands. I can’t throw him out, because he’s incapable of taking care of himself. But I can control his access to me, decide how his behavior is going to affect my life, not participate in his ideas of what is wrong with me, and do whatever I can to replenish myself from the stresses of dealing with him.
It doesn’t mean that I’ve cut him out of my life, though he lives in my house. Quite the contrary. I engage with him as much as I can, when the interactions are good. Enjoyable, useful, meaningful. Positive feedback is as important as negative. But I am constantly conscious of my boundaries. How I feel about what’s going on. Whether it promotes something I want to promote, or the opposite. And in particular, if there is anything happening that undermines my mental health, my physical health and my ability to run my life for my own best interests.
I sometimes wish I had been like this earlier. It’s hard to know whether it would have changed anything now. But I know that, as a parent, I was reactive to my own background. Endlessly concerned about his feelings and afraid of him being beaten down in the same ways that I was. And as a result, I’ve had to do some work on convincing him that I expect respect as a separate human being, just as he does. And that respect is earned by behavior.
I am still trying to get the right kind of help for him. And the truth is that it is draining. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night so angry that I have to go through all the tricks I know to calm myself down so I can sleep again.
But every relationship, especially challenging relationships, is a learning experience. I still have hope that this situation is going to come out well. Maybe not what I hoped for him, but I think, with help, he can find out how to manage himself and build a place for himself in the world. And I think it’s possible, with help, that we can find a shared understanding that is not so fraught with anger and despair.
But if that’s not true, I don’t intend to be sacrifice my life. I didn’t come this far for that. I sometimes think he is the big test after recovery from the sociopath. Can I hold onto myself, have compassion, and also save my own life. Is it possible to love and have boundaries? Is it possible to let other people be themselves, no matter how disordered they are or depressed or needy, and make it not about me. Or if I decide to care, make it not beyond what I can do without harming myself.
It’s a tightrope walk. Being the parent makes it the most challenging thing I can imagine. But the one thing I am pretty certain about these days is that I need to stop interfering, stop giving advice, stop “helping” unless I’m clearly asked and they clearly want something I can do. And something I want to do, because I am not the only resource in the world. They are going to change, and they are going to invest in what will help them change when they’re ready.
It’s hard to watch. It’s hard to stop treating them in the way we did when they were younger, and they were really our responsibilities and their treatment of us also reflected their desire to get along with us. But I don’t think we do them any favors by pretending it’s like it used to be. I think we do them a lot more good by treating them the way we would treat anyone else who behaves this way.
I love my son. I love him enough to do this.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 1:38pm
witsend says:
Well today I am crying for all us moms….Sabrina, Gem, Oxy, Erin.
Erin I can tell you that I am a thinker by nature. I am one of those people that have to understand things to the best of my ability, in order to deal with them.
And never have I been so consumed in my thoughts as I have over the past two years. Some days I don’t even function well and get stuff done that I am supposed to. This has brought me to my knees. These years have been tough.
Awile back it occured to me that I can relate so well to everything about a cluster B because I was also married to one. For years I had excused/overlooked/misunderstood the relationship that I had with my husband. I had been raised in an alcoholic environment, been married previously to an alcoholic, and just thought that this particular addict was really, really sick. He was sick but it wasn’t just addictive behavior. He was classic, cluster B. I haven’t even been able to process all of this….My past with him….Because of my present situation with my son.
HOWEVER even when this became clear to me, about my husband it certainly didn’t shed any light on what exactly was happening with my son right before my eyes.
That is the thing Erin….Even though you have been through this before with your husband….And you understand alot about this disorder, it is DIFFERENT when you experience it with a child.
Its hard to define but I would say that the first difference is that it is manifesting, GROWING, right before your eyes. I once asked a question here when I first started posting. And my question was something like. Is this disorder grooming him as it manifest within him, or is he grooming the disorder? I STILL don’t know the answer to the question?
And as you “see” the “troubling traits” and behaviors presenting themselves on a daily basis, you do what a mother does…You try to curb them, to teach them, to REACH them, to turn them around. Like you would with any teenager. Because any teenager can be difficult. BUT there is a MAJOR difference. The difference is that darkness. The feeling “that no one is home” in there, when your trying to reach them. That deep dark hatred/anger that lies beneath the surface. And when you catch a glimpse of this it takes your breath away. Because YOU KNOW that you have done nothing deserving of that kind of hatred/anger. You know that you were loving and a good mother. You know that your child was raised with love and nurturing and you wonder WHERE THE HELL this darkness comes from? HOW could this even exist in them?
Alot of teenagers are angry. This initself is not the end of the world.
But I am talking about a “total package” here. Once you see the total package you know that this isn’t just your average defiant, angry, teenager stage that your dealing with.
Because that is the one thing that you usually DO see when you are raising a teenager. Even during a troubling “stage” you see the light at the end of the tunnel. You KNOW that this to shall pass.
This is what I believe and I believe it with my heart and soul.
1) No matter how DISTORTED their reality is. If they SAY they are graduating with their class. THEY BELIEVE THIS.
If they say that you didn’t SUPPORT them in something. They BELIEVE you didn’t support them. If they say you are a terrible mother, they BELIEVE you are a terrible mother.
Their REALITY is what they PERCIEVE it to be. And they LIVE in that distorted reality. That perception. It is REAL to them.
2) Consequences even good consequences do NOT teach them anything. They do not “learn the lesson” from a consequence.
Faulty wiring in the brain. Call it what you will. But if A & B = C, for a consequence, it doesn’t register. If it is a bad consequence they are ANGRY and feel blindsided, or that consequence was undeserved.
If the consequence was a positive one it registers as they were ENTITLED to this any way. NOT that the good behavior or whatever = the end result. (good consequence)
So to use an easy example here: When my son FLUNKS in school. He doesn’t grasp any of the REALITY of the situation. He doesn’t OWN any of it. He flunked because he set himself UP to flunk. He didn’t turn in ANY of the work. These are the facts.
But he sees it as he was robbed. He didn’t have a chance. The teachers were against him. No matter what he did he couldn’t pass.
As DISTORTED as this is. This is what HE believes to be the facts.
So the reality is that he flunks. But he doesn’t ACCEPT that as reality. So it isn’t REAL. (to him)
3) He doesn’t feel the love, or concern, or compassion, or nurturing, NOTHING.
Not only is he not able to give love, he is UNABLE to RECIEVE it.
This is the hardest thing of all for me to understand. And it is the most heart breaking of all. No matter what you try to do for them it is never enough. Nothing is GOOD enough. Nothing works.
4) They don’t seem to have the capacity to understand that you do LIVE in reality, along with the rest of the world.
Maybe this is part of the disorder and how it is progressing in this im-mature stage….
But I would swear to it, that when my son first started lying compulsively, he was VERY angry that I didn’t believe his lies. Or anyone who didn’t believe him for that matter. If he SAID it, he EXPECTED you to believe it.
5) He has a distorted sense of control. And power. And he percieves money as power, and he percieves that he has control over everyone. The school, the teachers, the administration, myself, the family he is living with now, the cops in town. Everyone. The reason he percieves that he has control over people is that simply put, he thinks he has.
He couldn’t “conform” to regular classes, so the school devised a program specially for him. (no regular classes) All E lab classes. (computer)
He couldn’t conform to living at home, so the law allowed him to leave at 17, the family opened their doors to him and he left.
Now he is having trouble to adapt to their rules so the law AGAIN provides him “back up” to move back home.
It goes on and on. But in HIS eyes he doesn’t HAVE to conform to the WORLD, the world WILL conform to him. And so each time he gets that confimed to him, in his own distorted sense of hiow he percieves things, he FEELS THIS POWER & CONTROL.
It is very hard to STAY grounded when you live with this on a daily basis.
The easiest way to understand this that I have found is……
Somewhere during the developmental years they didn’t progress normally. This was arrested.
It would be like a 17 year old body going through life but a MUCH younger childlike brain function. It never developed beyond a certain point.
When a baby is 2 years old you try to TEACH them right from wrong in their little worlds. Not to grab the toy out of thier playmates hands. BUT, and it is a big but…..This is NORMAL for a two year old NOT to fully understand to not grab the toy because they want the toy.
When you are trying to teach a 17 yr old NOT to do something, but your 17 year old only has the brain capacity of a two year old (or whatever age) it is a different story altogether. They are LACKING at this point the capacity to understand what you are trying to teach them. They will take what they want. They don’t have within them the compassion for another. They don’t have the concept of A & B = C.
It is alot to absorb for a mother. It is alot to process and accept. It is heart breaking.
Erin I know this is difficult, but in your situation you do have something to focus on that is VERY important. I wish in a way that I had younger children.
You have younger kids. You have to think of the damage he could be doing. Because you are raising them all in the same household…..If they see how he does “his thing” regardless of the consequences, you don’t want your other kids to pick up on that. All that chaos & crazymaking behavior.
So if it comes down to forcing him out at 18 years old, as difficult as that might be, it might be the best thing for your other children.
I am in that rock and a hard place right now because of my sons age. But when he turns of age, I hope to be able and ready to let him go. Because I have accepted ONE thing.
In all my attempts, I have been UNABLE to help him or reach him on any level. If anything, I am the source of his hatred and anger. And my presence in his life seems to fuel that anger.
I don’t understand this hatred and anger and I most likely never will. But it is what it is. That much I can see. And I have seen enough of it, to know that it is REAL. That it IS my reality.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 2:16pm
blueskies says:
I listened to a radio interview with a French minister discussing this a couple of weeks, its sounds like those trying to get it passed as legislation understand the complexity of trying to prove cases of psychological abuse (and from what I gather the intention is that it would have broader scope than martial abuse alone) and are quite aware of the difficulties they face in trying to pass such legislation. BUT that the issue is out there, being discussed in such a forum, and subsequently internationally, and officially being recognized is fantastic. If nothing else It may be a good start:)x
Love to you all amazing LFers.x
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 2:43pm
witsend says:
Erin,
Also, you know what you know. Your instincts, your gut and your perception of what is going on with your son is what you have to go by….
It is VERY possible that your son is just an angry, defiant teenager that HATES school. And once he is out of school he will muddle through and find his way in life. NOT what you wish for your kids to start life without an education. BUT still very do-able. He can always go back and get a GED.
If you still see him as “reachable” than that is a very GOOD sign. If you still have more moments than not, that he is teachable, then he is.
Teenagers are self centered at best. They can be challenging and draining. They make us DIG DEEPER within ourselves to effectively parent them.
With my son there came a time when I didn’t just FEAR for him, (because of what I saw) I started to have FEAR OF him. That was the defining “light bulb” moment for me.
Teenagers bring alot of different emotions out in us. And their is nothing like having a teenager around the house to push all your buttons. Because they can do that.
But I DREW the line at having fear of him THAT is not normal.
That is when I came out of my denial stage. I peeked my head out of the fog he had created all around me and realized that I had to face this. I couldn’t “stuff” this particular feeling.
I could continue to face my other conflicted feelings and reactions to everything he was doing. And try to sort the conflicting emotions out.
But I couldn’t “sort out” the fear of him.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 2:52pm
witsend says:
lightsaber,
Thank you for your kind post to me the other day. (sunday? I think) I did see it and was unable to respond at the time.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 3:06pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
witsend wrote: “With my son there came a time when I didn’t just FEAR for him, (because of what I saw) I started to have FEAR OF him. That was the defining “light bulb” moment for me.”
Yes, me too. That’s when I realize I had to chance how I thought about this.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 4:07pm
lightsaber says:
You are very welcome witsend
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 4:07pm
witsend says:
Kathleen,
So how did you change the way you thought about this?
How do you live in fear in your own home with someone who threatened to set it on fire. Or abuse the animals when you were gone for a few hours. Or says the most abusive things to you that you have ever heard. Breaking a lawn mower several times in one summer, so as not to have to mow the lawn. Breaking or destroying stuff around the house that you can’t AFFORD to fix.
Not to mention the daily crazy making and REAL crisis situations and lack of reality that they reside in on a daily basis. And the hatred. WHAT about the hatred? How do you live with that, and go to bed with it and wake up to it all over again? Day after day after day.
I am very curious as I believe in a very short time this is all going to be happening right under my roof again.
And if ANYONE needs to change how they think about this then maybe it is me.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 4:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
witsend, mine’s not that bad. Bad enough. I deal with scary levels of anger, lack of awareness of much of anything that isn’t in his head (the night my cottage burned down, the fire alarm was going for hours while I was out of the house), blaming, all kinds of judgments of me if I try to interfere with his thinking, all kinds of reasons why all kinds of things are my fault. But he also has a core of rationality. He knows there’s a difference in him between when he’s triggered and he’s not, and he knows that he’s got serious problems.
The challenge is not the same. None of these are exactly the same. And yours is complicated by other children. You have a lot of protecting to do. Not just yourself. With his verbal abuse, destructiveness and threats, even if he had a rational, reflective side, I think you’re dealing with something that you quite rightly consider dangerous.
And if you’re asking for advice, I think I’d be inclined to do whatever I had to do to wall him out. Physically, emotionally, whatever. Forget everything that’s gone before (unless you can make use of it), and then use whatever resources you can find — DV, police, mental health — to say that you can no longer house him, that you fear for your children and your life. And if those people who took him don’t want him anymore, inform everyone that you are not going to let him in, and if they don’t want him wandering the streets and doing the same violence and damage that he’s been doing and threatening in your home, they’d better figure out what to do with him. Because if you have to, you’re picking up your other children and fleeing.
I’m talking about taking a position. I don’t know if it will work, or if somehow the law will force you to take him back in. Or if you’re even willing to take a position like this. Your situation seems to be well-documented. No matter what kind of resistance you might find, and whatever impression they might give that you’re not doing your job, I think you’ve got a legally and morally defensible position. And even if you can’t get attention or action until he literally harms you, the risk to your younger children may help the authorities to understand that you need to lock him out, until there is clear indication he can manage his anger and take responsibility for his behavior.
I think that the other piece of this is telling him. That he needs to find somewhere else to live.
I don’t know all the pieces of this, witsend. What I’m saying is less based on my experience with my son, than my experience with my father. I grew up with someone like him. And over forty years after leaving that house (the oldest child), I still sometimes wonder if I should have found a shotgun and killed him, and gone to jail, rather than allow him to continue to destroy the rest of the family.
Which is not to suggest that you do that, but that the potential for disaster here is real and that you’re not the only one involved, though you’re the only adult. And maybe that the risk you’re facing isn’t just what he might do, but the impact on your resources and your judgment if this becomes part of your everyday reality again. All that energy and headspace he consumes in your life is taken away from your chances to provide for your other kids, and to try to protect them from trauma.
All that said, I know how hard this is. It’s really drawing a hard line and saying you’re finished. I don’t know if you’re ready to do that.
But it sounds like the break from having him around has made it pretty clear what the difference is, between having him there and having him gone.
I’m thinking about tough, confrontational therapy I’ve seen with DV abusers and incest fathers who are trying to get back to their families. (Because I was writing about these topics, I’ve sat in on some group sessions.) If there is any chance that he’s simply an out-of-control teenager, that kind of therapy might help, but it’s out of your hands. He’ll get there when he gets in trouble, and it would be best if he gets in trouble iwth someone else, not with you.
I’ve got to do a business call now and can’t proof this. I hope it’s useful in some way. I am humbled by your situation, and this is all I can think of right now.
Kathy
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 6:24pm
geminigirl says:
This poem came to me this morning.
THE JEWELLED HEART.
Through the prism of our glistening tears
We, who suffer now,are knit together
Bound to each other
In a net of jewels.
Look closely, now,
The net is forming into
a white Diamond Heart.
And one day, the Father will place this Jewelled Heart
In the centre of His Crown,
And He will say,
“You are all my beloved daughters,
Well done, thou good and faithful servants,
Enter into thy rest!”
And we will sit with Him
And eat and drink with Him
And ALL will be restored,and all will be well,
And All manner of things SHALL
be well!!!
Love, Gem.XX
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 7:19pm
Petra60 says:
So much sorrow, pain, anger, frustration. The best I have been able to do over the years is to appreciate the days when the good outweighs the bad.
I look at images of what happened in Haiti and appreciate the fact that I have water and toilet paper (at the very least:) Of course, I know only too well – that no matter what is going on in the world – the things that are happening in our immediate surroundings are the things that can bring us to our knees.
Erin – your son reminds me of mine….your feelings of anger remind me of my rage… The confabulations…getting up late…not acknowledging that I am a human being…pushing my buttons…a parallel universe. There were so many signs – early on. I made excuses for him: He was too young…he missed his father…he ended up with the wrong crowd…his hormones were raging…he was lazy…sibling rivalry…teenage angst…confusion…chemical disorder…genes…his parent’s conflicts…etc. etc.
Every excuse led me back to feeling guilty. Maybe I was emotionally absent (I apologized to my sons for those times I was not always there for them – even though I thought I was -they told me that they didn’t know what I was talking about!!!) … Maybe I shouldn’t have let them see me cry (my ex always told me to keep my feelings to myself) Hmmm?…Maybe I shouldn’t have given my sons so much privacy…or maybe I didn’t give them enough? Maybe I let them eat too much junk food…Maybe I wasn’t tough enough…or maybe I was too lenient…etc. etc.
Years of therapy, soul searching, reading and writing made me realize that I did the best I could. I have carried these boys on my shoulder every inch of the way. My younger son would have failed every grade…would have failed Highschool…would have never made it this far – if I had not used up all of my energy, resources and gut-wrenching love.
However – and here is my point – I only delayed the inevitable.
One of my sons has made it for 29 years by cheating – lying – stealing (mostly from me) but, also from credit card companies. He is the proverbial “Catch Me If You Can” kind of criminal…and someday – someone will catch up with him.
Like Wits – I saw it one day. The eyes. There was nothing recognizable in those eyes. When I teach people how to paint portraits – I always tell them to paint light and ife into the eyes. That’s what is missing in my sons eyes. No light and no life. No soul.
It took me 25 years to “get it”…and it took me a few more years to “let go” – not only of my dreams (a nice family with a nice husband, children and grandchildren) but, of the intense desire for my sons to be happy, productive, loving and kind.
I wanted so much for my boys to treat women with respect…I fought for that…I preached my philosophy…I taught by example. It didn’t happen. Their role model was their father.
Reading everyone’s stories brought back so many memories.
Things certainly change as our children get older…but, unless we turn into sociopaths and have no feelings ourselves…the tears will never stop flowing – just flow less often.
I have been an educator most of my life – and one thing I know for certain – character traits are pretty much set by the time children finish Highschool. It doesn’t much matter if they turned out that way because of a genetic component or their environment. It is what it is.
I wish there was an easy answer on how to cope. One thing I have learned during the past few years is this: The crazy making person is the one in charge and they know it. The anger and turmoil they cause and our reaction to it – is almost like an addiction. I never thought that I would be able to turn my back on so many people who used me – including my kids…but, I was. My therapist kept telling me: “Take care of yourself first.” I thought I knew what she was talking about…but, it took a long time to figure it out.
Take care of yourself ladies. In little ways. Enjoy a hot bath and listen to your thoughts. I have the greatest revelations in the bathtub:) Enjoy a good meal…forget about calories once in a while. Watch a funny sitcom like “The Middle”…it makes our lives seem less complicated:)
The thing that helps the most is that you have each other. Reading your stories and knowing that there are people who care and who can empathize is the greatest gift.
You might think that the hard part is living with our kids (sociopaths or not) – but, the hardest part is living without them. No more fights…no more crazy making…no more arenalin rushes. The screaming and name calling is replaced by dead silence…hope is replaced by the realization that things will never change…dreams turn into depression. The Christmas decorations go up but, there is no one to enjoy them but yourself. Instead of setting a beautiful dinner table – you eat something in front of the television.
We have to learn how to cope through every stage of our lives…the alternative is worse.
Have a nice evening.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 7:49pm
geminigirl says:
No, I dont think the alternative is worse. When I was in my tiny flat, I couldnt believe how quiet it was. But, a little voice inside me said”You did it! You escaped them! You are free! “Even tho I had wall-to -wall guilt leaving my teenage daughters,{17 and 19, not babies, and they did not appear to miss me at all!]I had my little black cat with the yellow eyes,Topaze,, tho even she was to be taken from me thanks to a trouble making old B–ch in the block of flats. I had my goldfish, Cleo, whose home was my landladies large clear plastic salad bowl. I had my painting of the Seagull with the azure blue sea,, which Id painted years before, and which symbolised the human spirit rising above the rocks of life.
I had my blue candle, my meditation tape of singing whales.
And I had PEACE! I vowed then and there Id NEVER go back to that madhouse.!! And I never did. Six months later, I met my darling husband, thru my landladies sister. How glad I am I summoned up the courage to get out! By the way, Joan, my landlady, when I gave her back her clean washed salad bowl after Cleos demise, said shed never had the heart to use it since, as it had been Cleos home.Cleo, bless her, waited till I was emotionally secure with D, then she turned up her fins and died. I missed her.!! Gem.
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 9:48pm
Rosa says:
Hi GeminiGirl:
HAPPY AUSTRALIA DAY!
I’m watching the Australian Open Tennis Tournament on TV, and they said that today is Australia Day (holiday).
So, Happy Australia Day to all of the Australian bloggers!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 10:22pm
sabrina says:
witsend, You are amazing at articulating your situation with your son. I cant even tell you how similar my son acts to yours. In reading your last post,outlining everything in such clear, concise no nonsense truths, I searched for individual differences of the two (my son vs. your sons behavior)and I cant identify anything so far that I would have to say is not true of my son.
My fear of him is there, as he became violent with me a couple of times-even grabbed me by the throat, slinging me down and flipping over the furniture. I locked myself into my bedroom (already complete with deadbolt, reinforced door casing,and hotel locks-from the days of the abusive X- S husband )
I then screamed out that I was calling the police- when I was sure he walked out, I ran, locked all doors, and set my alarm.
The 2nd time my son got the crazed look and went into a rage on me, I got as far away as possible from his reach,put the red dot on his chest of my high powered tazer gun and told him to leave. He refused, I was totally prepared to shoot if he proceeded to attack me ( tazer is not lethal, just painfully knocks them down so that escape is possible.He finally took off. He even denies his violence toward me as if I am crazy and imagined it all.
I do not take any chances when he comes around. As unpredictable as he is, I can still sense the “demonic” demeanor as it begins to escalate. I get away at all costs-no 2nd guessing my instincts- I protect myself by having little contact with him, but when I do, I make a point to try to not ever be alone with him.
Wits, as you said the hatred they have for us is chilling, and beyond comprehension. I cant even believe that I “STILL” try to reach out to him after all that he has said and done to crush me.
BUt my efforts are getting more and more calculated and fixed on not enabling- such as refusal to post bond to bail him out of jail, refusing for him to ever stay here at my home, and basically protecting myself from him.
Another trait in him is the distrust he has in me. He assumes EVERYTHING I say or do is a lie, every thing behind my actions has a self serving “motive” that is out to get him, and has accused me of being a “user” – I guess that is called projection- he IS all of those things and can’t fathom that others dont live in a predatory state as he does.
Wits, as you said, they WILL destroy the house and expensive items by their carelessness, and calculated plans. People will say- if hes living with you, make him do all the chores,etc. OMG! You end up WORSE off- my new riding lawnmover was taken down into the woods, and left. My car was wrecked, BUT he swore he didnt do it- altho I was recovering from surgery, & he was the only driver. MY computer had all kinds of porn popping up from him using it without my permission, and charges from movies he had rented- ALL DENIED by him. Its insanity! WHen he lived here,I could take away ALL his privaleges- car, cell phone, etc. AND HE DIDNT CARE. He was content to torture me by his destroying of property, and destroying my life piece by piece.
As sick as this is, I hate to even admit this (if easily offended, please excuse the bluntness here) he defecated IN his shower one nite,leaving it for me to find the next day!!
Once again- he had no explanation, and denied it to be him!!!WTF??? BUt even beyond all that, the DV with the g.f. terifies me, and the extent he has gone to lie about it.!!
Thanks for letting me vent here. I have heartbrokenly read all your posts, Erin, Petra, Wits, and all others, and wish we had some answers to all the madness. Take care beautiful angelic moms who have sacrificed so much!
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 10:45pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Petra,
Your above post tells it “like it is”—-and we all I think had this “fantasy life” that we kept trying to fit the square peg of reality into our round hole of fantasy and it never quite fit, but we kept on using our hearts as “hammers” to try to force the fit.
I still find myself sometimes feeling a failure when I look around me and see others who “have” (or at least pretend to have) what I wish I had…but, many times their lives are not as “rosy” as they make them out to be….”don’t let the neighbors know what really goes on in our home.”
Yes, you are also right about counting our blessings. Compared to the misery, hunger, abuse, poverty and injustice I have seen in this world, up close and personal, not just on the tube of what is going on in Haiti right now, we are BLESSED beyond belief. At least a billion people in this world would be very happy to have a dry place to sleep, enough clean water and food to make it through the day and even rudimentary medical care. I need to tell myself that and literally sit down and count over my blessings for those things I take for granted. (((hugs)))
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Monday, 25 January 2010 @ 11:34pm
witsend says:
Petra 60,
I am sorry that I didn’t include your name with the moms earlier today that I was “feeling” for….. It wasn’t done with intention as I had just re-read one of your post and was actually thinking about you when I was posting.
You have been through so much and survived it all. Believe it or not you are what I consider my “hero”. Oxy already knows she is my hero,(I think). I don’t use this term loosly either.
I believe that the biggest cross to carry in this world is loosing a child. And if you can come to the other side of this kind of loss and be “alive” then I really have to admire you for that. And this IS the loss of a child. In the sense that it is terminal, and there is no hope for recovery. The body is still present in this world but the soul isn’t.
Right now there are moments were I still cling to that intense desire you spoke of, that my son might live a loving, happy, productive, life.
I have these weak moments, when I think of him as a child. And the happy memories. He had the most beautiful eyes I have ever seen. The blue of the sky, seemed pale by comparison.
And I can NOT believe that the stranger that looked at me with those dead eyes can belong to the same person. It just doesn’t seem possible. And yet I saw it with my own eyes.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:33am
geminigirl says:
We must remember that “We wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with demons, with evil angels, who owe allegiance to the devil and his co-horts. ” Christ knew we were in a battle ground, and the devil is the real enemy. I am SURE that when our adult or teen children have that hateful, glary look in their eyes, it is a demon looking out at us. Maybe we should get them all exhorcised! the trouble is, few people these days believe in demons, much less in satan, the prince of darkness but he is real all right.But the power of Christ is stronger.My old pastor that I used to go to see told me that D. hada “walk-in” spirit that came and went.He said, “This is NOT your daughter, you must believe me.’ Prayer is the only thing that works with them.Alcohol, drugs, etc, leave the soul unguarded, and these evil entities walk right in and take up their home in our children. Often they arent even aware of it.
And just try listening to the so-called Lyrics of such groups as Black Sabbath, iron maiden, the Dead kennedys, Alice Cooper,Marilyn Manson, Guns and roses, [all favourited with my daughter!]The words are pure evil.Love, Gem. We are in warfare for their souls.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:50am
witsend says:
Sabrina,
The projection thing was something I always found kind of amazing. Obviously not good amazing, but amazing. Because it is really hard to wrap your brain around this. What ARE they thinking when they project this stuff onto us?
The other thing I had a real hard time wrapping my brain around was how they can do something right there in front of you or TO YOU and then act like you imagined it when you would call them on it. LIKE it never happened.
And that is why I believe that they really do live and believe in their own reality. And they “adjust” their reality to suit them.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:50am
learnthelesson says:
Hey Witsend,
Im just catching up on posts before bed…
I hope you are feeling better today, although I know even “feeling better” can be relative sometimes when dealing with this on a daily basis. It never seems to feel right on any given day. Maybe just seems like carrying a lighter load…some days.
As you know, I was a daughter who grew up (initially with a mentally-ill mother, who later vanished for nearly all of my adult life)…but when she was in my life…things in my world – were never what other families seemed to have/experience.
Without going into it… there were times in my life that my sister and I had my mom committed ( she was forced to take meds — it was short-lived tho, because as soon as she got out she went off of them)…there were times when I witnessed some things that no child should…and there were times that I just “gave in” and sat across from her yessing her, or being convincingly agreeable with whatever craziness came out of her being. What Im trying to say — is eventually it was out of my control — and I chose to be “present” in a way that never ruffled her feathers. My sister on the other hand chose to be in her face and call her out and demand she be on meds and get help and live in reality…
In the end, my mother lived the life she chose. Along the way, her family and friends did whatever they could to either support her or give her tough love. Its personal choice and circumstance evoking. I just want you to know, I do not feel that I gave up on her, or let her down for choosing to deal with it the best way I could for myself — I feel that because I chose to do what was right for me (the few times she got visitation or we found her or we thought she was on medication) I feel that I had more quality time with her than my sister. But my sister feels she had quality time with her just in a different way.
What Kathy said to you, is SO TRUE WITSEND “He’ll get there when he gets in trouble, and it would be best if he gets in trouble with someone else, not with you.”
Even with teenagers less rebellious and not so far removed from reality, they can tend to risk failing or not graduating high school, and there are consequences they have to take-on and live with and figure out. Its on them… not you.
I think Im just trying to say at some point you have to think as much about yourself and your well being as you do your sons. If you have fear – then you know that he shouldnt and cant return. Certainly not unless he agrees to realistic terms and conditions (therapy, schooling, etc) which you know he wont. Just like we knew my mom would not agree to taking her medicine in order to be with us.
I ended up loving her from afar. Loving her when a random phone call came from her from god knows where. Loving her, missing her, wishing for things to be different but letting go of her was what I needed to do in order to live my life. I could have cut her off completely, but I chose not to in terms of accepting her calls, etc. Her parents did…they needed to…she took their money, she threatened them, she lived in her own world, her own reality, and at times she had everyone scared. But I remember my grandmother would take every collect call and try like hell to be loving and caring (with boundaries) when she appeared.
So this is what I learned….my mom lived the life she chose… I think we all do. Her life was the furthest from anything any of us could ever imagine – some days a living hell — some days she honestly lived happier than I ever have – doing her own thing, making bad choices, making good choices ( I dont condone it at all – no balance, no structure, not a contributing member of society, etc…. but it was her life to live – not mine to control or judge) and she did. WE all do.
I know your sons situation is different than my moms – but I hope sharing my view/experience lends some comfort to you. If my teenager was in your sons shoes, i would have done everything you have done – I would have fought for counseling, teaching support – interventions – tough love – sweet love – and then I guess because of my experience with my mom – I would decide whether it was more important to distance myself completely or with boundaries or to do what I did with my mom — the times she wanted to spend with me – I did so – doing things she wanted to do within reason/ a things she wanted to do or needed me to do without me expecting anything in return and without me trying to set her straight on her comments/thoughts/behaviours.
OMG, I could go on and on…about how her she rang up a hotel bill into the thousands and tried to put it on her parents charge, and got arrested and how they stopped sending her money (rightfully so) and how she went down every wrong road in life possible… by choice or her mental illness…or both… but in the end she lived her own life. Sometimes a good path along the way on meds -or in love and on her best behavior or happy to be friends with a total stranger… everyone finds their way. Everyone does.
All we can do is give unconditional love to our children/parents/family/friends within reason. When it becomes fearful or unbearable we have to know in our hearts that we MUST protect ourselves and do what we can to make the situation as functional as possible .. Even if it means stepping into their world from time to time and being there on the smallest most amicable level possible. (Certainly this is not true for anyone causing us physical abuse or threats or severe severe issues – then you remove yourself 100%). There comes a point though where you know when you cant lose yourself over trying to reach out to them/fix them. Only they can want that for themselves – eventually some hit rock bottom and try, several times…and others …well they go on to live a much different life than we ever imagined. But its thier choice. Just like your older son has chosen a different path than your younger son. But you loved them both the same… time will tell…
You all are amazing moms. You care and you give your best and seek the best possible answers and solutions. So did I reversely – with my mom. But sometimes they dont always happen and you find that life will go on, just differently than you imagined…so you set boundaries and protect your sense of self – spirit and soul! You are not alone. I use to feel alone until I found LF…knowing its here has helped me learn and grow and know theres always a place I can go to find comfort and a sense of comfort and understanding.
Hang in there…listen to your instincts…trust yourself! xoxo LTL
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 1:51am
Petra60 says:
Witsend – thanks for including me. I didn’t think you did it on purpose. From what I can tell – everyone on Lovefraud has nothing but the kindest of intentions.
I have been a mentor for hundreds of military women, adult education students, university students, etc. and so many of them were hurting. There are few people who are not suffering – rich, poor, young and old, healthy and sick. Like OxD. wrote – we often don’t see people beyond the superficial.
People saw me as strong and competent – with a great family and a wonderful home. I was always ready to listen and/or give advice – but, I felt like a fraud. There I was – comforting the women who lost their husbands in combat or in a helicopter crash…helping students get over their depression and anxieties…listening to stories of abuse and divorce…never admitting that I was in the same boat.
Everyone thought I was married to the greatest man on earth…he always called me “Love”…sent me flowers…kissed me in front of everyone…helped at parties… Nobody knew what I had to endure. I did tell my sisters or friends – but, they thought I was crazy. How does one explain covert abuse?
Anyway – no use going down memory lane. Just wanted to tell you that I am no less of a hero than all those women….no less couragous than you or all those who share their stories.
For those of you who are struggling with “letting go” of their children – whatever you do – don’t let them abuse you. Call the police or a social worker. The first time my son got into my face – I told him to get out – and he never lived with me again. I did the same thing with my ex. We all set different boundaries….mine was “physical abuse”. My ex tried to strangle me twice (then he told me it didn’t happen)…I locked him out and turned on the alarm. That was the easy part.
The hard part is to keep them locked out. First they pretend it’s O.K….then, they start to make promises…then, if they realize you mean it – they get angry…then, the abuse escalates. It took a long, long time before I stopped wishing for my ex to come back. We had been married for 30 years (most of that time he was gone) and I never gave up hope that change was possible. After all – he was capable of treating other people with respect – and he told me that he loved me more than anyone. It took even longer before I internalized that my ex and my son were beyond redemption. People like us – cannot fathom a total lack of conscience, remorse, empathy and understanding.
But, there comes a moment when enough is enough. There is that moment when you realize that they can’t love…that they never loved you (in every sense of that word)…that they will never love you. Everything they do is not even because of hate…they just don’t care. It’s the closest to evil one can ever get. It’s the terrorist in our midst. They scare and intimidate us…they make us feel like prisoners in our own home…they distroy our spirit… We disintegrate while they gain strength.
And yes – Gemini – I agree with you. Being alone is so much better. When I mentioned the “alternative” – I meant “being dead”.
You seem to be such a creative spirit, and I am happy that you found someone after only six months. At least you were able to trust again.
Thank you OxD. for taking the time to validate my post. It sounds like you have found comfort in being a mentor and writer. You seem to be a supportive friend to everyone on this site. It is worth so much more than anything I can think of.
We all need witnesses to our lives…we need to be validated…we need to be understood. Thank you all for that.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:00am
ErinBrock says:
Ladies……
Wow…..there is a lot to think about…
You all write so eloquently…..my heart is saddened. It is a different sad thatn with the S…..much different…..
It’s a mommy sad….I want to help you sad….and knowing I can’t.
Thank you all for sharing your stories and your journies and your well earned and weathered wisdom with me. (us).
I am feeling overwhelmed with all the posts above and need some time to read and re-read…..It’s like a crystal ball into my future with this child.
You are all so very giving with the biggest hearts…..I appreciate the comraderie and the validation ans comfort I find here always!
For now….I am holding my breath……and I will exhale slowly and come to my decision as there is nothing i can do for now.
I love my son…..but as my therapist said to me…sometimes we must allow life to be their teachers.
Thank you all from the bottom of my heartbroken heart…..
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 3:58am
geminigirl says:
Hi, again, all my darling friends on LF. I have something very sad to tell you. New Lily is dead.I got worried about getting no reply to my cards and letterI sent her, so a couple of weeks ago, I wrote a letter[not an emai} lto the supt. of Police, Chandler, AZ., asking him if hed help find out about New Lily, whose real name was Toivola,[or Toi} Kangus].
here is his letter to me.
“Hello, my name is Sergeant L. I work for the Chandler Arizona Police Dept, and have been asked to return the results of our investigation to you. On 01-25-10, we attempted to contact your friend, Toivola Kangus, at the address you provided. We were unable to contact her,although we were able to contact her neighbors, who indicated that she had recently passed away in a local Hospital. My deepest apologies for having to provide you this information via email
The home-owners association representative, [number provided,} will likely have more information for you, if you desire it.”
Most sincerely,
Sergeant L.,
Chandler Police Dept.,
Field operations Division,251, N. Desert Breeze Avenue,
Chandler,
AZ.
I had a very strong feeling that she had gone. she had so little to live for . Three spath adult kids, 2 spath sisters, and one spath brother, and none of them wanted anything to do with her,. She was so lonely, but had a very strong faith in God. I believe he decided to take her, as she will be loved and cared for in Heaven. We have lost a dear sister, an inspiration, and a true friend. Vale, New Lily, {Toi.}
and Love from all of us, including me, Gem,XX Oxy, I know how sad you will be , you were especially close to her.I dont think Donna will mind me giving her real name, as she has passed away.Im so glad now that I send her that jade green
glass necklace, and matching silk scarf, she loved the necklace, and she told me it was the first present shed received in over 20 years!her adult kids never ever gave her Birthday gifts or even a card. She told me she wore the necklace with her mothers Jade earrings, to her Drs appt, and she told me she wasnt afraid of his diagnosis,, as Id given her such strength and happiness.So that was something Im glad I did.Love, Gem.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 6:21am
Donna Andersen says:
Geminigirl,
Thank you for the information, although it is sad. And thank you for caring so much for another Lovefraud member.
New Lily, I so hope you have found peace.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 8:58am
Matt says:
All:
New Lily’s obituary can be accessed on http://www.legacy.com.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:14am
witsend says:
Geminigirl,
That is so sad. I always thought about our dear Lily. I am happy that you sent her that gift Gem.
The hardest part is that we “know” her sadness that she took to her grave.
Reading her obituary, she had a large family including several grandchildren, and it said she was surrounded by family when she passed. And all I could think of as I read that was to LITTLE to LATE.
She needed her adult childrens support while she was living…..
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:32am
Matt says:
witsend:
I had the same thought. I found it especially ironic that several of her kids expressed their “condolences” in the on-line guest book.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:54am
blueskies says:
Geminigirl. Thankyou for sharing the terrible news about ANewlily. I didnt have that many conversations with her and I took a break from here just after she went into hospital I think but Its really unhappy news to return to. I hope she is at peace.x Much love to ANewlily.x
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 11:58am
sabrina says:
Gem, Thank you so much for the news of New lily. I am so sorry to hear it, but cant help but think that she is finally resting in Gods arms surrounded with love that she never got on earth. Bless you for sending those gifts to her!! You were her angel in her time of need, showing her love and caring for her.
Also, THANK YOU you for saying what I honestly know in my heart that is true- about what Ephesians says about “wrestling not with flesh and blood..” I guess out of concern that most would think that I am “nuts” for believing that demonic possession is among us, I keep that more to myself.
I, too believe that this is more than likely the culprit for all the S that walk among us. I have posted before about how many scriptures back up this and warn us about evil doers and the dangers therein.
I feel most people reject the idea that their loved one is truly possessed by demons. In the bible, there are several examples of demon possessions, and Jesus cast them out. Why do we ignore this knowledge today?
Many pastors and others have witnessed demons being cast out of people. There are very common threads in their experiences.I have heard that these demon possessed people (old and young alike) appear to be normal- even going into churches,sitting on the church pews, but witnesses say there IS something different about them..(they are known by their fruits)
Some sense the unclean spirit among them.
Society seems to reject the idea of demon possesion,( even tho it is noted many times in the bible) even more than they are willing to accept that sociopaths exist.
In seeing my son transform into this dead eyed ,non- functioning ,disassociated being, I for one feel that unclean spirits, demonic forces, or whatever you choose to call it has inhabited his body. He is NOT the person that he was as a child, he is NOT just sowing his wild oats as they say, going thru a bad stage, etc etc. We that have lived with this, know the difference.
Its easier, and safer for doctors to label “disordered” personalities. And for heavens sake, they would be mocked and ran outta town if they proclaimed this “radical” idea of demonic spirits. We can all compartmentalize and believe the “accepted” medical terms that we are given, however for those of us truly living with this ‘disorder”, we might should break it down alittle further, to its biblical roots. This is my opinion, I am NOT trying to convince anyone else to believe this way, as it is strictly my beliefs. But its good to be able to voice honest assessments of our own individualality,
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:04pm
witsend says:
Kathleen,
I just wanted you to know that I don’t have younger children involved. That is Erin who still has younger ones at home.
My son is my youngest. And I wish this was really just about ME making a decision of what I would choose to do.
Right now the law gives him a choice, to leave home, (w/o being treated as runaway) but until he is of age (18) it clearly states that I am responsible. So for one year the law is “grey” and the grey area is in his favor.
For now, I have told him that he made his choices and now he needs to live in his choices.
I have chosen at my end NOT to enabel his choice to leave home. In other words I don’t provide him rides to school ect.
I have chosen to let him and the family that took him in to figure it all out.
And it all sounds good, however at the legal end I am still responsible. In the schools eyes, in the states eyes, financially etc.
So recently he was “mad” at the people who took him in. He lied to me (go figure) and told me a “story” of how he wouldn’t be able to stay there anymore.
The story he told had NOTHING to do with what was really going on over there.
What really happened is he got “grounded” for his actions.
Not coming home in time, not being where he was supposed to be and not calling them to inform them of his whereabouts. Grounded for a week. And he wanted out of the situation he created.
My problem is that this is going to be a very temporary situation, him living there. (I thought it might be over already)
Right now, its kind of “until the next time there is a problem” situation.
And I don’t have a plan for the “next” time. My hands are pretty tied. (as I see it)
The law is not in my favor to do what I would like to do. And that would be to NOT allow him to come back home.
I know that might sound terrible to many mothers, but those that have walked in these shoes would understand.
Its not about love. I love my son. But I can’t reach him.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:23pm
learnthelesson says:
Witsend,
It does not sound terrible to me for you to want to NOT allow him to come back home. I dont think he will even realize legal options if you were to put your foot down and tell him he isnt allowed back home…and he would probably be 18 by the time any legalities would come to fruition.
I think it is about love. Not only love for your son…but most importantly love and sanity and safety for yourself – if you feel fear or afraid of his actions. Its the kind of love I tried to express above … from afar…a newfound love that goes along with not being able to reach him. One that says I can only do my best as your Mother, and I feel I have and will continue to with boundaries…
AT this point, it really may be about you making a decidion of what you would choose to do. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
And my heart goes out to dear sweet New Lily… Gem your post made me cry – we were all lucky to have New Lily touch our lives with her story and posts… you especially touched her life. Thank you for sharing that story.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 12:41pm
witsend says:
Learnthelesson,
Bless you my dear….Thank you for sharing more of your story with your mom. You have such a wonderful outlook and such a kind heart.
In many ways I feel that I have come to a cross road. Emotionally. The “road” I have traveled since his departure has had its share of bumps and detours but overall it has been the smoothest road I have been on for the last two years.
That feeling of not walking on eggshells every minute of my waking hours has been very GOOD for me. I can actually think clearly some days. I cry just as often as when he was living here. My heart is VERY heavy. But there IS something different.
I can’t put my finger on it exactly.
Right at this moment (tomorrow things could change) Things are the way they should be. If nothing else we are getting a break from one another.
I was at the point before he left that I really couldn’t take it anymore. Everyone has a breaking point and I believe I was at mine. Emotional wise and stressed to the max. I am trying to use this time to learn to calm myself. To breath in and out. To embrace the silence.
It is always tomorrow that I fear. I seem to be “programed” now for waiting for the other shoe to fall.
Someday I hope to be able to live in the moment.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 1:20pm
sabrina says:
Witsend, I support your decisions 100%. You know my feelings on the subject. I, too was concerned when my son went to live with other people (at 16 or so), that I was still ultimately responsible, but I had legally gone before the courts and named him a defiant teenager, admitting that despite my efforts- I could not force him to attend school, stay within curfew,etc.- I think when you did it- in your state it is “incorrugible” (?) Which I beleive would help you IF he ends up breaking rules, in trouble, etc.
ALthough I was concerned about it, I never had any negative reprucussions (legally) from his choice to move out. After my son ran away from my home and stayed with friends for awhile, he petitioned to the court to live with his step dad at that age, with whom I KNEW wouldnt provide much discipline, which was WHY my son wanted to live with him.- MY SON tried moving around with friends as yours is, and ALWAYS tried to come home here and there between soap operas at others homes. When he did, his anger and inability to follow simple rules made it unbearable- exactly what he intended.
To those parents who took “poor baby” in and believed “I” was this evil mommy dearest, I couldnt help but feel a …. I told ya so…NOW he is burning down your life! YOU WERE WARNED!
My own sister in law talked dreadfully about me for asking the courts to assist me by way of juvenile boot camp, etc in leiu of his repeated failed drug tests, BUT his hatred, defiance, and crazy making was a huge reason for my cries of help!
SO my son goes to my brother and sister in laws to stay- SHE WOULD PROVE THAT I WAS JUST TOO HARD ON HIM.
Within days, my son verbally attacks my mom, has the women in the family in tears, the men wanting to beat his a**, and SHE (sis-in-law) GLADLY ships him off!
No one should judge your decisions that have to be made. Be strong, and take care! (HUGGS)))
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 1:41pm
sabrina says:
Wits, dont feel bad that you are enjoying normal life again. I felt as tho I had won the lottery when he was gone!!! Be thankful you are “FREE”- dont worry about tomorrow, try to enjoy this day!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 1:47pm
learnthelesson says:
Witsend,
I know what a VERY heavy heart is…I know the pain and the tears….I do, I really do understand. And I know there isnt much anyone can do or say to make that “feeling” that “place” inside any better. It just happens with time and life situations and continual learning and growing on our part.
Im glad you have found a place of peace along the road you are traveling. Perhaps a time of taking it all in, regrouping, growing, learning, losing, grieving all the while gaining direction and perspective.
One of the most powerful things I experienced in my journey was the differences between my sister and myself with regard to the way we “dealt with/handled/behaved” as “daughters”. It opened my eyes to the fact that each and every one of us is truly unique and our own beings. And when we do whats right for us (not whats expected or what others want us to do)…but when we follow and trust our instinct we usually end up so much better for that.
I remember the days my sister (and she was and will always be my best friend – although we are night and day)…but my sister would say — whats wrong with you ? why dont you care? why dont you speak up to her and tell her she is ruining her life and our life? why dont you seek to find her and get her help? what kind of daughter just coasts along – goes along with her crazy talk – or gives her love when she gives you nothing in return? And I would say right back to her…Why do you try to change who she is? You cant save her/rescue her? You are losing yourself trying to reach her…she doesnt want to be reached. You fight with her…you never win…you try to reason with someone who doesnt even know the meaning of that word…etc…etc…etc.
AND in the end we were two different spirit/souls…who basically gave eachother permission to be the daughters we could be/chose to be in order to get through. We both loved our mother – reached out to her – and heldon/ let go – in our own unique individual ways and to this day we both continue to struggle and learn how to love ourselves as well. But its getting better!!
Just as all mothers are unique and should do what they know to be best for themselves and their children. So Witsend, dont wait to live in the moment. Start today. It is through my experience that I think Ive started “walking barefoot through life”, because the “other shoe was always falling” no matter what I did.
being myself -like you, and so many of us – a daughter, a mother, a friend, a success, a failure, a learner and truth seeker … letting go of guilt as best as I could and continue to – and holding onto to who I am and could be to my Mom within my own comfort zone!!!!!! I got creative and found the balance that only i could deal with – on my terms. Again, if I had to – I would have cut her off completely (like you may have to or choose to)…but I was able to deal with just being in her presence and accepting her for who she was…not enabling, not condoning…just sort of not reaching for her or trying to change her…but listening and being there (but removed) until it was time for goodbye.
It was those choices or coping mechanisms of mine that likely set me up for my dysfunctional relationship with my ex. So Im learning that what worked for me with my mom – does NOT work for me if I want to have a healthy relationship with someone. I cannot sit back and be accepting of everything in everyone – I have to set boundaries and seek respectful trusting loving healthy people in my life.
Oh my ….Im rambling…think thats why I dont post as often as I use to
)) I just want you to know when you are ready you can start to live in the moment of ur truth, ur reality and that of your sons. There is no right or wrong…just learning and growing…you learn to respect your choices and protect yourself which in essence is how we protect our children too… whether he chooses to respect and protect himself is another story. Just take one day at a time. Tomorrow is not to fear, for it may never come one day! Live in the moment. xoxoxoxoxo LTL
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:13pm
witsend says:
Sabrina,
Like you, I did file that incorrigible teenager through the courts. I got a “program” instead of going in front of a judge…But I guess if nothing else I got a paper trail with the court. I can’t refile because of his age (now) though or I would.
I also have a file at the local police department from when he recently left home. I couldn’t file a runaway, but I do have documentation that he left home w/o my permission and that I have no control what so ever over him.
I am not sure what good a paper trail does, but it might be of importance in the future.
I have very mixed feelings about the people who took him in.
Like your son mine told a whopper of a story. I am pretty sure that I was portrayed as the evil mother, blah blah….He even OFFERED these people his entire bank account to take him in. So you can imagine that these people must think I am really a terrible person. Because what kid would do that?
I have to be perfectly honest here though, and say that if a young kid of that age came to me and was so DESPERATE to get out of his house as mine was, I to would “wonder” about the parents involved, it would be hard NOT to. So many kids are in abusive situations. But……
The DIFFERENCE is that I would ask the parent for THEIR side of the story as well. And I believe that these people really made their decision to take him in BEFORE they ever spoke with me.
And because of this….I didn’t share much with them once I talked to them. Just pretty much that he was very oppositional with me and that I wasn’t able to parent him effectively. Nothing I did worked as far as consequences. Not positive consequences nor negative.. I kept it pretty simple because I figured if they really wanted to know what I had to offer they would have ASKED me sooner.
I guess I think of them as rescuers/enabelers. They enabeled him to leave home, w/o my permission. They put a roof over his head. I felt that they were “judging” me and my sons situation, by what he had to say about me. And we know that wasn’t a story about FACTS.
They have a bit of their own family drama going on though as well. A situation with their own son (my sons friend) And that is the story my son focused on when he lied to me and was “fishing” to come back home.
And in another sense I feel some gratitude, that they took him in. He does have a roof over his head. I am trying not to be harsh in my judgement of them. I don’t like what they did, but I understand it to some degree. And there is NO perfect solution to this. And whatever they can do for him it is a temporary solution to what is going to be an ongoing problem at best.
Because none of this is going to go away, even when he reaches the “magic” age.
When he goes into the world as an “adult”….
I see him as a train wreck looking for a place to happen.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 2:37pm
witsend says:
Sabrina,
Side note…When I say that I see my son as a train wreck looking for a place to happen…..I don’t mean that in a dramatic way…I mean that in a factual way. In other words I think I am coming to grips with the reality of the situation.
These kids do not allow you to “prepare” them for going out into the real world. They leave thinking the rules do NOT apply to them. They leave feeling entitled that the world owes them a living and that the world will conform to them. They leave w/o the ability to love or feel compasion, or empathy or kindness. All that you did try to “give” them or “teach” them they leave behind. (ironically as if it all never happened, that lack of reality thing, as if you didn’t try to be there for them)
All they take with them is anger.
And so when they step out there…In the real world…It is just the begining of another chapter.
You pretty well know that the world will not treat them well, nor will they treat well those they encounter in the world.
It is not the way it is supposed to be when you “let go” and your adult “child” ventures out into the world. But it is what it is.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 3:08pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Wits,
Well, his fantasy of being able to do what he wanted and not have consequences from the people providing him a roof over his head and food etc…he IS of course entitled to be provided for by these people (he thinks!) but also IS entitled to make his own rules (he thinks!)
My husband used to say “the golden rule is HE WHO HAS THE GOLD MAKES THE RULES” so, if you are going to live in MY house, it is MY rules. He obviously tested them and they did stand up to him. Even though they are attempting to rescue him from YOU–LOL—you old meanie, you—LOL—they are obviously trying to set some rules, which I think your son DID NOT EXPECT, he has not yet “gotten” the Version of the “golden rules” my husband espoused. In reality I think we all should feel that way. MY house, MY rules. It came down recently to that with my GROWN adult son, he knew the rules and he chose to VIOLATE them, and he could have left any time he didn’t like the rules, rather than to stay there and VIOLATE the rules, but MY HOUSE, MY RULES—it hurt, because I had come to trust my son C, and it was “out of the blue” that he lied to me. It may be that there were a multitude of “reasons” (excuses) of why he decided to break the rules and then lie about it, then project on to me being “the problem” and ME being unreasonable.
There were days I regretted I had to enforce the rules, to set the boundaries and to tell him to leave because I really didn’t want him to leave, and I thought it was being beneficial for him financially for him to be there, BUT, he was not taking advantage of the OPPORTUNITY to save money while he was living in my house (he was paying a FAIR SHARE of room and board) but being there was the ONLY opportunity he could have had to SAVE money, but he CHOSE to spend it on “toys” rather than save it. He had a legal right to do that, or to stand up to me and say, “I don’t want to live by your rules, so I am moving out and will spend my money any way I like” but he chose to pretend to save money while NOT saving money, then to lie about it. I can’t do the lies. I won’t do the lies. Now that he is moved out, he will not be able to provide a place for himself to live and all his other expenses and save money, but he can spend himself (again) into bankruptcy or poverty–but it is his choice, and he no longer has the option to come to my house because he blew it by lying.
I’m sorry that he has chosen this path, but it isn’t something that I can fix. He obviously didn’t value me and the opportunity I was giving him. So that is HIS problem not mine. I no longer owe him anything—he’s over 18.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 3:17pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
How are you doing? Still at your friends house? Hope you are having time away from home that is relaxing
I have to go to the PO before they close. Did you read about dear Lily? That was sad news, I hope she is at peace.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 3:43pm
sabrina says:
“He obviously didn’t value me and the opportunity I was giving him”- Oxy THat is golden, I will footnote that for ALL my experiences with the S in my life- expecially my son.
Witsend, I was kinda like you, thankful to a large extent that someone was taking in my son and dealing with him even tho it was for the wrong reasons, based on his make believe world of smoke n mirrors.
THe only flip side to that is what I am struggling/grieving over now which is at 21, he is now abusing his girlfriend who took over the job of taking him in. With the restraining order in place, she says she is not allowing contact with him. I pray that & tell her to run like hell if he ever comes around her again. Maybe I should take my own advice!
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 3:55pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sabrina,
I think the hardest part with my adult son C was that I know he is NOT a psychopath….he is not mean, doesn’t try to hurt others, but is able to excuse himself for doing things he knows he should not. Not robbing banks, or scamming money from others, he has a job and is a great employee, hard working, dedicated, etc. but he has an “addiction” to computer games that he is not willing to give up or even see as a problem. I used to think that his financial problems were his P-wife’s “fault,” but I realize now that she was only PART OF THE PROBLEM. Like any “addiction” if you spend most of your money on it and do not save any at all, whether it is buying clothes, or alcohol, or drugs, or gambling, or music or movies, if you spend more on it than you can reasonably afford so that you end up not having money for essentials like rent, car repairs, food, etc. you are obviously not managing your money very well. Not managing your money well because you spend on NON-essentials so that essentials are not planned for is not an adult or reasonable choice.
He isn’t alone, I know lots of people who have a $30,000 bass boat but do not have medical insurance for themselves or their children because they “can’t afford it.” So my son is not alone in his “addiction” or poor financial planning. BUT, the point is that by staying at my house (even paying 1/2 of his take home for room and board) he could get ahead in his finances, build up a comfortable “nest egg” to have for emergencies. That was part of the deal that he would save 1/3 of his money. Actually, he had plenty of opportunity to do that, but chose instead to secretly buy more, bigger and faster computers on which to play his video games with. Then, when I found out, he LIED. It didn’t hurt me or my financial situation to let him live with me, it benefited HIM with an opportunity that he obviously did not take advantage of….and….the lie was a “deal breaker” and he knew it when he did it. I am quite sure he was at least sorry he got caught in his impulsive buying for his “addiction” but his knee jerk response to lie to me about it, when I confronted the lie, then he tried to project blame for it onto me. Not swallowing that either. It hurt. DAMN it, it hurt a LOT that he is hung up on his games and values them more than he does his brother (who was equally as hurt as I was) and more than he values his relationship with me. He is assuring himself a life of poverty and irresponsibility but that is HIS CHOICE, not mine. It doesn’t matter if it is drugs, gambling, drinking, or video games, he is hooked on the “escape” from real life that he gets from them, and willing to “invest” any money he can legally lay his hands on in order to “get high”—but, not thinking about the fact he now has no saved money, and can’t save money now as it will take everything he has to live each month, to month, and when his very old and well worn, high mileage vehicle craps out soon, which I expect it will, then he won’t even have a down payment to make on another one. Her will no longer have a garage, access to tools and a brother to help him fix his truck for minor repairs which he will now have to pay retail to a mechanic to have fixed…so he gave up more than the respect and assistance of his brother and me, and gave it up permanently because of the lie. He no longer has a “fall back” position, or any friends that are in a position to help him if he gets himself into a bad financial position, loses his job, gets in bad financial situation due to anything that goes wrong in his life whether it is his “fault” or just “bad luck.”
I realize in the past I have “bailed him out” when I should not have done so…and I think the parents of many Addicted adult children have done. I haven’t had to bail him out of prison or anything like that, but I have let him move home when he got into a very predictable financial bind in the past…but I can see that he has NOT learned anything by me Attempting to “help” him, so it is up to him to have the consequences of his bad (in my opinion) choices.
I think we just have to accept that P or not P, our kids are adults (or trying to be) and that their decisions are theirs and the consequences of their decisions are theirs, not ours. I can see a “second chance” in some cases, but that is not the situation with my sons, the P or the Not P biological sons, they have had more than one “second chance” and I am all out of “chances” for them to change. It is up to them.
(((Hugs)))) and my prayers for us all. Love Oxy
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 5:09pm
sabrina says:
Oxy, I am so sorry to hear about the non P son having problems. The “hope” with this son is that he has the capacity to possibly learn from his mistakes at some point and the ability to realize the consequences are real. You, of all moms are a great source of wisdom, if he will ONLY “value” the opportunities, and trust that you are looking out for his best. Wishing you the best. Take care!!! xoxo
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 8:29pm
Trophy says:
On Exorcism
Hey, folks.
I haven’t read all the posts, but I figured I would offer my help. I think a lot of disordered people are possessed as some of you have mentioned. My son once had some problems and I contacted a group of healers — well after they got started a demon flew out of him, cursing. I felt it move through me and I felt sudden anger as it passed. My son looked up at me and smiled.
It wasn’t over with the oppositional behavior, but that was all the proof I needed.
When you think about it, doesn’t it just make sense? Just because something exists on a slightly different wavelength than we’re used to doesn’t mean it’s not real.
After all, if little invisible critters can make you sick (bacteria) why can’t something with a bit more organization do the same?
Tonight I will send some spiritual energy to this thread and intend that it begin the process of releasing dark entities of anyone in need. Can’t promise anything, and I wouldn’t expect a whole lot, but I will be there and send it.
If it makes anything shift, I’d like to know. However, entities can come back — that’s why it’s best to have a full program of cleansing, releasing, and teaching the inflicted one how to avoid this stuff next time.
As you can probably guess, I’m working on my own theory of all of it. It’s not quite ready for public consumption, but I will send energy sometime tonight.
Blessings.
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 9:19pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Trophy – that’s really interesting, what do you mean by that ?
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Tuesday, 26 January 2010 @ 9:31pm
ErinBrock says:
Anyone……
Has anyone heard of ‘The Landmark Forums”???
Attended, heard about them or know anyone who has attended these seminars?
It was recommended to me…..(here I go)…..and they have a teen gig….
I spoke with my son about them, seeing if he would be even interested before I explored further….
He said….yeh, I don’t see this hurting me any…..
BUT…..the only pain that could come from it is to my wallet!!!!
It’s NOT cheap.
Any input is valued….good bad and ugly!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 12:38am
lightsaber says:
I’ve never heard of them EB. I did just Google it though and I found this site with a detailed blog account of one guy’s experience with it. From what he described? MIND CONTROL and MANIPULATION to the tune a few hundred bucks. I smell snake swindle.
http://www.skepdic.com/comments/estcom.html
Why was Landmark Forum recommended to you? As in, what benefit is it suppose to have?
P.S To Hens – I can’t for the life of me, remember or find what thread you posted that great ultimate one-liner for an Spath, but I just wanted to tell you that I love it! “You don’t say.”
Oh yeah! That one is perfecta-mundo
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:00am
ErinBrock says:
LightSaber:
I have been hearing about it recently…..just pops up in conversations.
I have a GF who her and hub did it like 15 years ago and her husband wants their teenage son to do it.
Then tonight another friend just mentioned it and this woman is an architect, very educated and grounded and it promted me to look into it…..
No one was pushing it in the least…..it was just mentioned….and ofcourse….I guess I’m just looking for the ONE thing that will ‘change’ my oldest!
One last ray of hope…..one last chance to learn something about life……becasue he won’t learn it from me!
He was open to it when we discussed it……so that was positive….and I told him, I wasn’t interested in giving him this opportunity if he wasnt’ interested……as it’s not cheap and would take some planning.
He still thinks he’s graduating…..and I wrestle with shutting him down just yet….out of guilt.
I did the same thing in my marriage…..don’t quite until the fat lady AND her daughter and grandaughter sings….ya know….
I’ve got 3 months and 16 days…..and counting…..to ‘try’.
I guess the benefit, all said…..was empowerment and life altering…..learning how you deal with ‘life’ and how things don’t work for you……and view differently to act differently.
dealing in the ‘now’, realizations about past and letting go…..
Check out the website.
It sounds like therapy of sorts…..but in a different environment. and only a weekend….
And since this kid won’t go back to counseling and calls me Dr. Phil when i talk to him……
I thought maybe this type of environment/aproach would MAYBE suit him?????
I’m NOT big on the pyramid scemes……and dont wish to be dragged into anything because of attending one seminar…..
I know people that are into that , Not me.
And I’m not sure how they deal with the teens on this level…..I’m thinking they may view them as future ‘team leaders’ in their organization……not cool!
Maybe mind control of a troubled child is not such a bad idea?
At least someone can make him do something!!!
Or not.
I thought your link was interesting…..the guy seemed combative and obviously skeptical…..and wanting to prove to himself and his friend his point.
I don’t know……
I think maybe it’s like a diet…..there are 10000’s of ways to lose weight……
Some just excercise and lose it…..
Some don’t exvercise and just watch their diet……
Some do the low carb, some take diet pills, some do surgery…..
I guess whatever works for an individual????
It’s up to all of us to keep the weight off long term, no matter how we choose to lose it initially…..
The proof is in the ‘long term’…..
Again, I have no idea…….I’m reaching for straws….a miracle……just waiting for that fat lady to sing!
Thanks for your input…..I like all perspectives….
FA LA LA LA LA LA…….
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 3:29am
Kathleen Hawk says:
EB, I’m familiar with Forum. It’s a program similar to EST in the 70s and 80s, Silva Mind Control and others that focus on an intensive weekend of experiences to make you aware of self-sabotaging beliefs, likewise aware of your personal potential, possibly including some goal development, all within a context of understanding how taking responsibility can change your life.
I’ve done a number of these through the years, and I always get something out of them. Part of it is the training. Part of it is being around a lot of people who are actively working on themselves. The programs are designed to make your question yourself and then to help you discover yourself. They usually have a wind-up that leave you with the “seminar effect” of feeling really glad you invested in yourself. That sounds kind of crass, but a lot of what you really get from these things creeps up on you when you go home. In good ways.
I’ve never done Forum, so can’t recommend it from experience. But it has a good reputation and it’s been around for a while.
If you want to try something a little less expensive, get some Wayne Dyer CDs to listen to in the car. It’s not the same as being in a big room with a lot of other people and a dynamic speaker, but you’ll get a sense of what this stuff is about.
There are a lot of interesting teachers. If you want more information, drop me a line and I could start funneling information to you. I’m on a lot of mailing lists.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 3:44am
ErinBrock says:
Kathy,
I was thinking for my son.
Something he could do….without ME…… on his own……
I’m also familiar with Wayne Dyer…..I may even have the disks…..PBS deal….
I really like his soft spoken ness.
This ‘forum’ came up in conversation today again…..and they have a teen forum…..
Like I said…..maybe grasping at straws here…..
But he was willing…..
It might be a ‘back door’ aproach to therapy.??? For him….but having to do it himself.
There is also a chance he could just walk right on out….and boom $400 bucks down the pooper!
I’ve tried the disks in the car on roadtrips….he puts his itunes in his ears…..and I end up listening to the tapes on my own…..NOT the purpose!
This is why I thought this MIGHT be able to ‘reach’ him……outside chance…..because I won’t be there…..
I’ve been reading about the forum all night….still not any clearer.
Thanks Kathy…..
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 4:40am
midlifecrisis says:
Erin I have done the forum – many years ago. It’s similar in some respects to Tony Robbins work but harsher. The forums are quite confronting – there is a leader with a mic and anywhere from 50 – 150 people in the auditorium. The leader presents various concepts about life and then takes questions and comments from the audience – like I said it is very confronting – many people ended up in tears at the one I attended. The way the leader treated their personal histories was harsh and humiliating in front of everyone – interrogating them.
An aspect of it I don’t like is that it encourages people to be cold to one another. Everything is seen as a ‘choice’ and the impact of emotions on decisionmaking is negated by the leaders. They make out that we make our decisions in a vacuum without considering others in the process. I find the lack of contextualising difficult to deal with. And you are already noting your son is behaving in selfish ways – this program would encourage him to do that more. People are encouraged to follow their own agendas regardless of the impact on others (sound familiar anyone??) – if you do consider others you are told that you are ‘making excuses’ for not doing what you really want to do.
That said, by the end of the forum several people had resolved to make important changes in their lives. Of course the forum is structured this way – you spend long hours without food or water being lectured and ‘brainwashed’ – you end up in a kind of hypnotic state – start at 9 in the morning and go through till around 10 at night. There are breaks, but you are expected to be back on time and be involved in everything. If you break any of the explicit rules you are told in front of everyone ‘You may as well leave because you just gave up y our right to expect anything from this program’ – the rules are quite pedantic – no drugs of any description – that includes tobacco, caffeine and even headache pills. One woman on my forum ended up in tears because she had a terrible headache and they were pressuring her not to take her medication. No note taking is allowed and things move quite fast so often all you can recall is a blur!
There is a big hardsell element to the program. You will find that out if you seek info for your son. You will both be invited to a Landmark ‘introduction’ – this is usually held at a graduate or senior graduate’s house and they gather several interested people to tell how wonderful it is and how it changed their lives. They really pressure you to sign up – the guy introducing me even offered to loan me the money to do the course because ‘I believe in it that much and I absolutely know it will do you good’. Also on the last night where people get up to say how they’re going to change their lives, they are expected to bring 3-4 people with them – who naturally are taken away to another room to be pressured to sign up. They also pressure graduates of the basic forum to sign up for more advanced and expensive courses. My colleague has recently completed advanced training and was expected to give up weekends so he could volunteer his time on basic forums. He sent his teenaged son to one too – signs looked good initially, and he has turned a few things around, but it is up to the individual person.
After the forum you are expected to attend a ten week follow up one night a week – don’t know if it is the same for teens though – this is to ensure you stay on track and don’t backslide.
So I don’t know quite what to tell you about it – I guess if you want to know more – ask Donna for my email = there are positive elements to it, but I kind of disagree with the theoretical underpinnings and think this method of training is quite harsh – it’s also a one size fits all approach. It is disciplined though … and that might help your son. They also won’t accept his excuses as to why things go wrong – they will expect him to take full responsbility. It might be a good shock and wake up call for him. He would be forced to realise how much you actually do for him. Some people get it and some don’t. It’s probably a fair gamble Erin – it doesn’t cost TOO much money and it just might be the thing he needs to kick his backside into gear.
There isn’t that much online about Landmark as they sue everyone lol People either really love it or really hate it. It might be an idea for you and your son to attend an introduction and meet some advanced graduates – get your intuition working over time and see what you think about them. I find they are quite cold people – very rational and calculating – but those are the people who have done way more than one forum – they’re volunteering and socialising in those circles so that might affect them. Probably worth investigating a bit more before deciding. If you want to know any more just let me know – I’m being a bit careful about posting in public about the content
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 6:08am
witsend says:
Erin,
After reading midlifes above post it sounds kind of scarey to me. The thing that stood out the most was when midlife said:
“to follow their own agendas regardless of the impact on others”.
For a young 17 year old that is like saying, well you know what it would say to him…..
There is however a program that my sons counselor at school found out about for him last year. He was talking to this counselor saying how he HAD to get out of this house, it was so bad here. And so she came up with an option for him to continue his education and also get out of the house.
It is through the National Guard but this program is for teenagers. It is a 7 month program. (they are away from home) The teenager has to commit to the program. You can’t commit for them.
I do not know the fee of this program because of course my son flatly refused to even learn more about it. He didn’t want any one telling him what to do. And he figured a program with the national guard would have to many rules.
But it is not the same as those expensive “kid camp” programs that you send your kid away to. That you have to put a second mortgage on your house.
Its through the national guard and it sounded really good to me.
Just an idea for you…I know how hard this is. I also know that part of the process is for you to DO everything you possibly can for them. It is very important to try and see if anything can reach them. Because sometimes as the parent we really can’t. But if something else CAN, then it it is all worth it.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 11:59am
witsend says:
Erin,
I googled and found another program that the National Guard offers for at risk kids that is free. 22 weeks. It is for kids that will not graduate or drop outs. But again they have to be willing to WANT to turn their life around.
I did not find any information on my first try, about the 7 month program that the school counselor was promoting to my son. But maybe you could call a National Guard office and find out about it or call your sons school and see if they know about it?
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 12:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear EB,
The problem with your son (and mine) I think is that there is no therapy that will “work” because they do not see anyone else’s opinions as important or valid.
Why should they (the disordered ones) take the word of some jerk therapist because, after all THEY are the smartest ones, and those rules don’t apply to THEM.
My P son had plenty of therapy, and learned the “cant” of it, can come on like a licensed therapist to others in giving them advice, he can come on like a minister and give all kinds of Christian advice, quote scripture as well or better than Satan himself, but he does NOT believe a word of the “therapy” or the “Christian Counseling” it is a manipulation tool. When the family (including my egg donor, who was sending him money but not letters) was not corresponding with him that first year, he wrote letters to everyone except me (he knew he was wasting his time and stamps with me at least) telling them how UN-Christian everyone in the family was being because they wouldn’t give him “UN-conditional” love. LOL ROTFLMAO
He wrote a 10 page hand written letter on this track to a minister friend of his and out family’s (the minister sent me a copy of it, as well as his own reply) and wrote letters to everyone in his address book telling them how he had been “abandoned” by his family. LOL Telling them to call my egg donor and plead his case.
There is some research that seems to point to the direction of making disordered people “worse” with therapy in that they can learn the “cant” and user it against others and better manipulate others with “kind sweet and caring” words that SOUND good but are in fact, just more and better bait for the victim.
At the point your son is (almost 18) I think you have probably pretty much got what you are going to get out of him. If he is a psychopath he is not going to change, and if he is not a psychopath, he will learn by his own mistakes when he is pushed out of the house into the real world. It might make YOU feel better to get him some therapy, but I don’t think it is worth the money unless money is not a problem for you.
I was a pretty defiant teenager against my egg donor, (can you IMAGINE THAT!) and when I got out from under her thumb I did a lot of things she had told me would immediately send me to hell or get me lightening struck at the least. I drank alcohol and smoked Cigarettes (she did both but secretly and I knew it) and I actually went out DANCING, and I stayed out late and did all kinds of “bad” things. But a year or so of being a “bad girl” (by her standards) and supporting myself, working, taking responsibility for paying my bills, getting up in the morning to go to work, I settled down and realized that I wasn’t going to hell for a glass of wine, but I didn’t like the head ache drinking whiskey or too much wine would give me the next morning, and staying up too late made me sleepy the next day. I learned from my mistakes and have been a pretty “honorable” and “moderate” person where “bad habits” are concerned.
I learned to manage my own money, row my own boat, and take the consequences of my own bad judgment or poor choices….in finances, etc. I wanted to be a good parent when my kids arrived and I did my best to do so, however, unfortunately, once my kids got into the teenaged stage, I think I enabled them too much even though, at the time, I thought I was doing “tough love.”
One of my biological sons is a psychopath, there was nothing I did for him or could have done for him that would have changed the decisions he made. My sending him commissary money and corresponding with him, and dreaming a fantasy that he would get out and come home and everything would be lovely was about like an “internet romance” he could “be” anything I wanted him to be and he mirrored my fantasy back to me PERFECTLY.
With my other son C, he’s got some problems I realize now, with an “addiction” to something, in his case, video games, and this causes him financial difficulties….I gave him an opportunity to get out of financial difficulties and he only used that opportunity to “save up” money to spend for more video games.
So, there won’t be any more “assistance” offered by me, no matter what happens to him financially. My assistance, while I thought I was “helping” on a reasonable basis (he paid room and board while at my house) really only enabled him to continue financial irresponsibility and show that he was WILLING TO LIE ABOUT IT. “Typical addict behavior.” The thing is too, that I know he is hard working, good employee, and spending money he earned himself, but without any savings of any kind, he WILL get into financial difficulty again and NOT see any correlation to his spending thousands and thousands of dollars on computers and video games to being “broke.” He justifies spending it on his games as “he earned it.” Okay by me, but he gets the consequences from here on out. I have NO doubt that my son (though not a p and not abusive to others) is going to wind up poverty stricken, in a deep financial hole that he may not be able to dig himself out of. But no matter how deep, or how bad that hole is, me throwing him a rope will only help him until he forgets how deep the hole is, forgets who threw him the rope, and deliberately jumps back down into the hole again.
There are people who are NOT Ps that don’t learn from self destructive behavior, and I think my son C is one of those. It’s a shame he has chosen this path, but it isn’t something I can fix. I love him and wish him well, but don’t have a lot of confidence he will learn from his poor financial decisions in supporting his addiction. Unfortunately, these poor financial decisions will preclude him from having a wife or girlfriend who is “worth her salt” and my guess is if he gets involved with another woman she will be as “bad or worse” than the first wife who was a psychopath looking for a meal ticket.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 12:23pm
witsend says:
Erin,
It is called the Challenge Program. It sounds really good. It focuses on education and a whole lot more. For at risk kids. 22 weeks and then they have a mentor for a year after the program.
And if you live where I think you live (if I remember correctly), there is a challenge program in your state. But I might be mistaken on where I think you live. But even if I am mistaken I think you can take them to another state for the program.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 12:27pm
sabrina says:
Erin, For what is it worth, I tend to agree with Oxy. At this age, Good luck sending him anywhere , even voluntarily. Before my son’s court ordered boot camp, & Family connection (home for troubled adolescents)- I tried some therapy with my son’s agreement. After the first meeting- my son declared that this therapist was an idiot, and he begun dissecting this doctors comments,habits, and life.
I calmly listened to his outlandish conclusions that he had made in a one hour session, but reasoned with him that he (my son) owed it to himself to at least try a few other sessions, then if it didnt work out we could perhaps try another therapist that might be a better fit. My son agrees. Next visit, we get in the car, driving 30 plus miles to get there. He declares as we arrive he will NOT go in, its a waste of his time with this moron that ‘needs’ therapy himself. What makes this guy an expert??Degrees mean nothing,and WHO fixes this guys f**** up problems??
Point is, they change on a dime, cant be trusted to follow through on anything, and do so in such an antagonistic manner, they won’t learn anything from it. “THEY” know it all.
Ultimately, Erin you have to make the decision based on your experience with him. Might could try some free or nearly free programs to test the waters if you feel compelled to.
From what Midlife said about the forums-
I wonder if those guys running it might be a group of N/p themselves (preventing that lady from taking meds, humiliation tactics,, All about self mentality, agressive,hard sell , etc.) sounds like they might be crossing quite a few boundaries. Sounds cult-ish to me.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:09pm
witsend says:
ErinBrock,
You know there is “wishful thinking”, there is denial, and there is reality. I think as mothers we have to go through all of the above. And in my humble opinion I think we have to come to conclusions very, carefully with teenagers.
Because teenagers as a rule can be difficult. Teenagers that are defiant and oppositional can be VERY difficult. Add alot of pent up anger to that teenager…..Now we are talking very, very difficult.
For me I had to try and de-personalize what was happeneing here. And look at only him. Take MY feelings and pain completely out of the picture. Really take a STEP BACK and look, at what I saw.
If your son has ANY willingness to seek some (any) kind of help, to broaden his horizons, to change his way of thinking, to EVEN “entertain” the idea that he doesn’t have ALL the answers….Than that is a GOOD thing.
It means he might still have the ABILITY to learn and absorb, and more importantly GROW. Maybe he can’t learn what he needs to learn from you. Maybe he is CLOSED off to that for whatever reason. But if he is open and willing to go elsewhere…..
I think as a parent you have to exahaust every single avenue you can possibly think of. Once you do that there isn’t much more you can do. Except enable them. And I believe that is the worst thing you can do for them.
If he is willing and would go voluntarily, and does FOLLOW through with it…..That is the question?
My son wouldn’t even CONSIDER a program. Because he doesn’t have a problem. Every one ELSE has the problem.
If your son doesn’t have this attitude or resistance, then there is hope.
Only you know this for sure….you can lead the horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
I think that is the job ulitimately of a parent. You can LEAD them in the right direction, but it is their choice. you can’t do it for them.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:32pm
Trophy says:
one_step_at_a_time says:
Trophy – that’s really interesting, what do you mean by that ?
Hi, One Step,
I meant to say I take a multi-pronged approach to issues like this one, from the physical to the metaphysical.
You can read more on negative entities here: “Remarkable Healings: A Psychiatrist Discovers Unsuspected Roots of Mental and Physical Illness,” by Shakuntala Modi.
Do a search on “spirit releasement” and you’ll find some resources.
Now, I’m not saying that releasing a negative entity from the body’s electromagnetic field is enough. People will likely still need therapy. They will still need to learn how to change their thinking so they don’t continue making the same mistakes.
They will have to learn what attracted an entity to them in the first place so they won’t just get a new one.
And whoever works with them has to release them into the Light, not just order them out where they sit around waiting for you to turn your back…and jump back in.
I know this sounds strange to a lot of people. But think about it — it wasn’t that long ago that it sounded strange to think people are out there who don’t marry for love, who will smile at you while stabbing you in the back. No one wants to believe that, either.
Anyway, I use Reiki and combine it with some other modalities. I’ve seen real changes when I’ve worked with Reiki at a distance. In one case, the atmosphere at a friend’s workplace completely shifted — people who were normally difficult seemed to calm down.
And my own children stopped arguing and began to get along much better.
I just do what works. I don’t care to develop some rigid ideology around it.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:36pm
sabrina says:
Witsend, Well more has hit the fan with my son. I posted that after he was released from jail for DV (3 weeks, b/c I refused to bond him out), He began stalking her last nite despite the protection order she has against him. She just let me know that she had to have him arrested again. He knocked on her window for 40 min before she got home (eye witness report), and followed her when she tried to leave to get away.
This, along with ANOTHER warrant issued against him for a deluted alcohol/drug test , violating his probation will assure that he will be having pretty much permanent residence at County Jail, anywhere U.S.A.
I dont even feel much of anything anymore, just sick..sick..sick..
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:38pm
witsend says:
Sabrina,
It is a really good thing that she had the protection order and that she followed through with it. God knows what might have happened if she let him in. He might have been going to jail for more than violating probation, if he really hurt her.
This is going to be alot to process for you and I am sorry for what you have to go through. Please do not be a stranger here….Come and vent whenever you need to.
God help us all.
xxxxxx
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 1:51pm
ErinBrock says:
The below article is the WHOLE reason and reminder WHY if we are abused or threated we MUST follow through with the restraining order and plan a successful exit strategy…..
THEY WON”T CHANGE…
1day after arriving back to ‘reconcile’ this her abusive husband…..
This woman is NOW dead…..and her 7 year old daughter is missing!
It didn’t have to be this way! IT DIDN”T!!!
Sabrina….I’m sooo very sorry your going through these emotions and turmoil with your son. BUT….I am so very proud of you and the exgf, whom you have supported to be able to follow through in light of all that goes along with following through, setting boundaries and doing the ‘right’ thing…..no matter how hard it is.
I trust this is a situation the young woman will learn from and heal from successfully and continue on down the path of life with this behind her. Deciding what boundaries she will and will not accept in her future relationships. She still has her whole life ahead of her….THANK GOD she is safe!
There will be good lessons that comes from it for her.
Tonya Hobbs held out ‘hope’, in light of DV, for whatever reason and is now DEAD!
NEWS ARTICLE:
Comanche County prosecutors charged Hobbs with first-degree murder and kidnapping in the killing of Tonya Hobbs and disappearance of her daughter, Aja Daniell Johnson.
Tonya Hobbs’ body was discovered Sunday inside Lester Hobbs’ motor home in Geronimo, a small town about 100 miles southwest of Oklahoma City
In August, Tonya Hobbs sought a protective order against Lester Hobbs, writing in a petition that he threatened her daughters and vowed to kill her if she ever left him.
“My husband has threatened to hit my daughters in the head with a hammer and kill them,” she wrote.
An emergency protective order was granted, but the case was dismissed two weeks later when both Tonya Hobbs and her husband failed to appear in court, records show.
Tonya Hobbs traveled with her two daughters to Geronimo on Saturday in an attempt to reconcile the relationship with Lester Hobbs.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 3:45pm
ErinBrock says:
Ladies….
Thank you all for your input on the seminar.
I’m thinking to forego it…..
BUT….Wits….THANK YOU FOR YOU NATIONAL GUARD INFO.
I was totally unaware of this program.
I’m going to look further into it……maybe as a plan B…..if he indeed doesn’t graduate.
There is a program that starts in July in my area….(kinda)…..sign ups by end of May…..and by then….we will know the reality of graduation and he’ll be forced to make some decisions ‘on his own’…..AND IT”S FREE!!!
He does well with ROTC (a military program in the schools), this has been his only follow through the last 4 years…
I’m going to talk to his Colonal about the program in confidence to see his input.
I so appreciate sharing all of your thoughts and personal experiences from your lives in re: to my son….I really work well with different viewpoints and experiences…..outside of my own and from moms who have ‘been’ there…..
Thank you all…moms with hearts!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 3:55pm
sabrina says:
Thanks Erin and Witsend for your support and words of wisdom- they are always appreciated. I am really not comfortable with the fact that my son won’t give up control of the g.f , it scares me.
I encourage her to call anytime for advice as she needs much support and strength to protect herself. I only wish there is more that I could do. I am still thinking about notifying her college, but I can’t afford for her to feel she cant trust me. Now she calls when he contacts her & so far has called the police when he does.
I wish you the best and peace in dealing with your sons as well. xoxo
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 4:51pm
witsend says:
ErinBrock,
IMPORTANT INFO. I looked up some more info on the program and the program originated in Little Rock Ark, but is in many more states now.
I think it is the same as the program that the school counselor had in mind for my son but she had the time frame wrong.
They must be at least *** 16 yrs old but NO OLDER than 19 at time of GRADUATION**** (the 5 1/2 month part)
So the age is important here. They have 2 times of year that the program starts. July & January. It is a 5 1/2 month program before graduation and there is a one year mentor “follow up”.
And orientation workshops for recruits start approx 2-3 months BEFORE each program starts.
It really sounds like a great program. This is some of what it says about it.
If you want a second chance, direction and purpose in your life, and if high school didn’t work out for you, this is a great opportunity. They describe it as: ” a structured behavior modification program.” 3 days a week the focus is academics, 2 days a week, on life skills and coping skills, anger management, job skills etc. At graduation they are either placed back into high school (the younger ones that need more credits) or into a job.
The program has a pretty good sucess rate as well.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 6:53pm
ErinBrock says:
Sabrina:
I suggest, since it’s looks like he’s going away for a while….and the fact that she DID call the police and acted…..
It seems she’s ‘getting’ it….
Maybe you could offer her some DV info and I remember you pointed her here…..
I agree with treading lightly, since she doesn’t have a huge support of family and she does contact you to keep you abreast….I see why you would feel a bit intrusive and risky calling the school. If you could do it ‘without trace’, then I’d say….recruit the troops….if not….and she’s progressing with info….then let it flow.
Wits:
I saw this info online….thanks for including it here…..I think it’s very helpful and I’m glad it’s posted, for the next mom…..I wish I’d of known about it sooner…..he could have made up his credits…..then gone back to HS…..OH well….theres a reason for everything.
I’m going to look into it as a Plan x….but not bring it up to him to think he has an out….just yet!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:29pm
sabrina says:
Erin, Yep I agree with you on just being there for her right now. I think she is getting it to some degree, and not allowing him back in.
Good luck with your findings for your son!! I understand the feeling of trying “everything” you possibly can and exhausting all avenues to get him on the right track! I pray that he does.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:52pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
sabrina -
I am so glad that you are doing so much to protect your son’s g.f.
love is a verb, and you have it!
best,
one step
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:56pm
ErinBrock says:
THANK YOU….sabrina!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:16pm
sabrina says:
Erin, and One step- Thanks for your responses, I just got these. I had to take some breaks from here, and the drama with my son to focus on work.
I wish you all a wonderful rest of the week!
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 12:07am
one_step_at_a_time says:
you too Sabrina
best,
one step
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 12:12am
geminigirl says:
OXY. Are you back home yet? I dont think you can be, as youve made no mention of NewLilys sad death. Im so glad your having a relaxing, healing time with your best buddy !!Love, Gem,XX
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 1:22am
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
I didn’t get on the computer yesterday and am just catching up right now. How did someone hear about her death? It is not surprising to me, though as the last time I was able to get her by phone (and I didn’t even try e mail) she was very confused and tearful.
I really can’t say I am sorry that she passed away, she wasn’t able to care for herself which made her very unhappy, and with her mind no longer functioning in reality, she seemed stuck in a painful place of remembering. I know she is NO LONGER feeling alone and discarded by her family, but is in a place of peace and comfort now. It saddens me that she suffered so much emotional and physical abuse for so long in her life, but I know her faith was strong.
I am doing okay and will return home probably next tuesday weather permitting. There is ice and snow and storms at home and here as well. The storm blew the roof off a nursing home in Stephenville which is where I was the other day and a tornado in Canton a week ago which is where I had also been did a great deal of damage to 30+ plus homes, plus businesses and farms.
Yesterday I started to work on the stuff for the attorney but had to unplug my computer because of the storm, but was anxious just thinking about the stuff. I did manage to read through a stack of my P son’s letters to the Trojan Horse psychopath and though it was mildly upsetting, not into a panic attack at least. I did get them sorted and picked out the ones to send to the attorney.
Son D is doing fair at home. I talk to him every day and though he had one melt down when he went to town and decided to drop off mail at son C’s work, I wasn’t surprised when that happened, I think he is just working through the episode with son C lying and me asking him to leave now, rather than at the time as I did. I seem to be doing okay with that, though have had a few dreams about son C and some night mares, but I think they are ways of my emotions being worked out while I sleep. Have had a couple of good night’s sleep lately.
Every time we get ANY kind of new stress that is HIGH STRESS and/or connected to a perceived “betrayal” of trust, I think it tends to rip off scabs or open scars from previous episodes. That is why NC is so important for us if at all possible. If I did not feel it was very important to preserve my LIFE I would not be going through the documents with and about my P-son and putting myself through this, but I know I must, just as a mother who has a child with a P must have SOME contact (even if only by e mail) with a biological co-parent and we all know they use the children as pawns in reaching out to hurt others.
We just walk the road to healing one step at a time, and sometimes there are rough spots, but we have gotten through rougher places in the past, and our strength will bring us through if we keep putting one foot in front of another. l(((hugs))) and always prayers.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 11:57am
Nicolaid says:
Hi everyone,
I am French. This law hasn’t been voted yet and many people are sceptics.
There is a law for workplace bullying already, but I don’t think it had a significant impact. Some of our top politicians are well-known serial bullies but it has no influence on their career.
I think the subject is even more complex within a romantic relationship. At work, there may witnesses willing to give testimony. But at home, it’s quite impossible.
Moreover, there is a huge difference between these two kinds of relationships. A worker may be trapped with a noxious boss. But a romantic relationship is quite different since everyone is chiefly responsible for choosing his/her partner. If your partner turns out to be nasty or simply disappointing, you just walk out of the relationship.
Love involves deep emotions. Deep positive emotions can easily slide into deep suffering, depression and even suicide. You don’t have to bond with a psychopath to suffer. Love cannot be garanteed “suffering-proof”. Love is a risky business that can have devastating impact on your mental health.
Feminists have lobbied for this law under the assumption that the abuse is a one-way process (i. e.: men are the perpetrators).
I expect many bitter women (or even sociopathic women) to manipulate such a law if it comes to be voted, to get a revenge against their former partner. They won’t be able to distinguish psychopathic abuse from the ordinary suffering that follows the failure of a romantic involvement.
As you know, psychopaths are very adept at using the law to obtain what they want. I expect this law to consume a lot of energy, of money, for little overall benefit.
I think it would be better to spend some of this money to raise awareness among teenagers.
I also believe that many people are aware that their partner has little or no conscience, but that they don’t care.
I have seen many women getting involved with psychopathic men, turning a blind eye on his misdemeanor, excusing and defending him at great length – because he “earned” a lot of money – or because they just loved the psychopathic type (charisma, glibness, foolhardiness, etc) – and suddenly pretend to be an abused woman, after the psychopath had dumped them.
Moral concerns are not supposed to be invoked only once you have been abused. These women should have condemned the behaviour of their man in the first place, when he made money sleecing others.
Best regards
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 8:10pm
midlifecrisis says:
Nicolaid – thanks for your post and giving us some context from France. You raise some salient points and a few of them I had concerns about too – like the trouble with finding witnesses to psychological abuse that often occurs in private settings. You also point out that some people might abuse the legislation – crying abuse where none exists.
It is my hope that you will return here and read some of the comments on previous posts – if you do you will see that it is not just women affected here by psychopaths but also men. Also rather than gaining any economic advantage from the psychopath, most people here have lost thousands to them – they can be terribly irresponsible with money and don’t care about debts they leave behind. We too have workplace bullying legislation and you are right – it can be very difficult and awkward to prove – so most people end up leaving the abusive workplace.
I think it is important this legislation comes through – if a man punches a woman he can be jailed for it. But if he plays mindgames with her, puts her down continually and murders her soul, there is no penalty and he gets to walk away scot free – there is something very wrong with that – and yes women can do this as well but the statistics seem to point to the fact that men do it more than women by invoking male priviledge.
Have you yourself had experience with a psychopath? Leaving them is not the easy road you imply that it is. There is brainwashing involved, often the victim is so low in self esteem they can’t think straight or do anything for themselves and when partners leave is known as the most dangerous time. These people are known for violence at the end of the relationship as well as stalking.
SOme good points made – please read some more here and post some more of your experience
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 8:23pm
sabrina says:
Nicolaid, I agree with your comment regarding that a S is ‘very adept at using the law to obtain what they want”— or my opinion rather in “breaking the law” whenever they want resulting in their high incidence of convictions.You have made some good points regarding the controversy and dilemna’s facing this proposed law.
However, I think your comment that you have seen many women involved with an S, to “suddenly pretend abuse after the S has dumped them” to be way off base. In those cases, you are not dealing with a true S.
In situations with relationships not involving a S, I could agree that there is opportunity for citing abuse when there truly may be none.
Obviously, you aren’t familar with the “nature of the beast” of a P.
Abuse is WHAT they do. There is no question of that.
I am wondering what makes you believe these women are “pretending” abuse?? while with a sociopathic partner? ?
Your other comment that “women” (you assume are the only ones affected??) should have condemned the man’s behavior in the first place also shows that you are very niave and uneducated regarding sociopaths.
You are not alone, many victims are blindsided by this hugely disordered vermon of society, and are taken in by the mask.
One of the goals here on LF is to expose them for what they truly are.
You really should study and learn more, as your comments reveal that you know very little about a true S, and could easily become prey- rather you are a male or female.
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Friday, 29 January 2010 @ 10:04pm
Nicolaid says:
Hello midlifecrisis and Sabrina,
Thank you for your answers.
I know that there are psychopathic women. The first psychopath I met was a woman. She was my landlady. It was a distressing experience because I was pretty young – seventeen -, far away from home, in a foreign country. I had no idea what I was dealing with. I thought of her as someone incredibly vicious. After three months, I just moved out and tried to forget her as quick as possible.
A few years ago, as a junior employee, I came across another one, a male. Unfortunately, he was my boss, my first boss. And unfortunately, I still didn’t know what was a psychopath. This man was very powerfull, highly connected and maintained a persona of immaculate virtue. One day, I quite innocently confronted him over what appeared to be some minor « misundertanding » – one of his manipulations. Overnight, I became his target. He bullied me until I quit. I suffered a severe nervous breakdown, spent a few months in a psychiatric facility. My relationship with my girlfriend came to an end. My professional reputation was destroyed : I had awkwardly tried to defend myself, against all odds, and was subsequentely labeled a nuisance, a lunatic. It took me several months to realize he had a personality disorder.
I don’t think I could get seriously involved in a romantic relationship with a psychopathic woman. I am not trying to say that I am a natural-born psychopath detector, but males and females have – on average – different expectations when it comes to choosing a romantic partner, and I believe that women are more at risk to get fooled because of the nature of their sexual/romantic turn-ons. Psychopathic males regularly turn out to be Don Juans (see Rocancourt) while the most desired females are often simply physically attractive.
Many women are attracted to status, resources, social dominance, assertiveness, charisma, charm. Male psychopaths can easily fake status and resources : they may wear a classy suit, rent an expensive car, date in posh restaurants and casually mention prestigious, imaginary connections and previous luxury holidays, thus appearing « successfull » on the surface. Many women get fooled for the very same reasons organizations unwittingly recruit « snakes in suits ».
As a male, I am more attracted to youth, beauty and moral qualities such as empathy, modesty, shyness, honesty. Those qualities are much more difficult to mimic on the long term for a psychopath because she naturally is the antithesis. I really look for the « antipsychopathic » mate.
I know many women have difficulty leaving their psychopathic man, even when they get severely abused. This is an interesting phenomenon that used to puzzle me a lot. Here again, I believe this rarely happens to those men who get involved with psychopathic women. I believe there are gender specificities when it comes to romantic involvement with psychopaths, although there are huge variations withing each gender, of course.
@ Sabrina
I’ve suffered a lot because of a psychopath and I still suffer the consequences, up to this day. I have read as much as possible on the subject but I know I still have much more to learn.
My experience is probably very different from yours because I never was emotionally involved with a psychopath. I am aware it may frustrate you, but I can’t help thinking there is some unconscious rationale underpinning the behavior of those who fall in love with psychopaths. Also – this is a philosophical or political stance – I believe one must make a parsimonious use of such notions as « brainwashing » or « battered woman syndrome » which imply the loss of responsability.
Best regards
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 12:06am
midlifecrisis says:
Nicolaid – thankyou for your response and telling us a bit about your experience. Re
“I am aware it may frustrate you, but I can’t help thinking there is some unconscious rationale underpinning the behavior of those who fall in love with psychopaths. Also – this is a philosophical or political stance – I believe one must make a parsimonious use of such notions as « brainwashing » or « battered woman syndrome » which imply the loss of responsability.”
Until you have been in the situation yourself you cannot believe how much you lose any power you have had in determining your own life and actions. Naturally a romantic relationship is much different to an employment situation – there are deep emotions involved. In some respects you are right – people involved with psychopaths have background subconscious issues – generally with abuse during childhood that ultimately gave them the message that abuse is normal from those we love. Additionally many of us had a lost parent (due to divorce or death), parents with substance abuse, alcoholism, depression or personality disorders. So yes there is a subconscious drive to repeat the situation and ‘get it right’ this time – this is the case for many of us. We have also learned growing up that we are unworthy and don’t deserve much in life so we are easily lead on by these psychopaths who promise the earth, sun and moon.
You seem to have a perception that women who go for psychopathic men are gold diggers or after status – I can’t agree with this. Many of the men women got involved with had lower qualifications and careers that paid less or had less status than the men they got involved with.
Re brainwashing and ‘battered women syndrome’ – I personally wasn’t physically battered – he did everything but though – financial abuse, sexual abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse and academic abuse. He tried to destroy me in any way he saw fit. Brainwashing definitely happens as the psychopath wins the victim over to his (or her) version of reality and makes her discard her own perceptions – inducing doubt and insecurity in a person that they can no longer rely on their own perceptions, thoughts, plans and actions. Various authors write about brainwashing, learned helplessness and loss of self efficacy – Sandra Brown in particular in Women who Love Psychopaths explains the process very well – she identifies trance states, hypnosis, hyperfocus and suggestion being used intuitively by psychopaths to over ride women’s intellectual analysis.
I too used to be a person who would get frustrated by watching women being physically abused and going back to the abuser. I would say “Why doesn’t she just leave?” It wasn’t till I experienced the control myself that I understood it. I have read about Stockholm Syndrome and can attest that this is more than just theory. Just world theory explains why people don’t want to believe anyone could be a victim of abuse – they don’t like to think there are people who do harm to others – so they don’t believe people when they tell about it and they blame the victim.
For this reason I prefer the word ‘target’ – it was not my intention to become his victim – it happened over time. But I definitely was powerless during the relationship – that was what he aimed for. He was trying to make me kill myself – I couldn’t make any move for myself at all. I tried to get away from him for years and each time there would be excuses, threats or links that made it impossible. These people are highly manipulative.
I have a friend who had a boss who was a psychopath – this was several years ago now. My friend suffered a nervous breakdown and was unable to work for a year as a result of the abuse – it induced a dreadful sense of self doubt, self blame, depression and insecurity in him. He stopped being able to make decisions and didn’t know what to do to improve the situation. Like you he had to resign in the end.
More than losing just responsibility, we lose our very selves in relationships with these people. Most survivors have emerged searching for who they are at the end of it – by the time the relationship is established we are little more than objects for supply to the psychopath – we cease to exist as autonomous people and our needs, thoughts, feelings and desires are consistently denied, invalidated and ignored. That has a profound effect on people – it is murder of the soul.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:43am
geminigirl says:
Dearest oxy. Thanks for your blog to me! Im so glad your having a relaxing time with your best friend, and Im sure youll go home refreshed, and able to take on your life once more.
Re NewLily,{Toi,}, I wrote a letter to the Superintendant of Police for Chandler, Arizona, where NewLily lived. I gota very nice email back from him last week,{its on an earlier blog, verbatim,}, letting me know that hed asked Toi’ s neighbors, and they told him that shed passed away. The reason I contacted the Chandler Police was that I was so frustrated at the fact no-one seemed to know what had happened to her. Im glad shes now at peace, and with Jesus, and out of her terrible emotional pain. I hada strong gut feeling she wasnt going to survive this.Its all very sad. It made me almost puke my guts to read the ‘condolences’ and “loving messages’ to her in the online guest book re her funeral, from her adult kids, sister, brother, etc.Much Love, Gem.XX
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 5:06am
Nicolaid says:
Hello Midlifecrisis
“You seem to have a perception that women who go for psychopathic men are gold diggers or after status”
I’ll try to be straightforward
. I don’t mean to offend anyone.
In my opinion, quite a few women are attracted to psychopathic traits. The problem isn’t that they can’t spot psychopaths. The problem is that they get swept off their feet by men who display at least a modicum of psychopathic tendencies, and sometimes obviously are full-blown psychopaths.
I believe there is an intricate evolutionary link between female sexual desire and psychopathic tendencies, who seem to epitomize sex appeal in the eyes of some women. When former Miss France falls in love with Rocancourt and they have a child together, she cannot claim that she didn’t know that he was a con artist, a womanizer and a suspected murderer : he paraded on talk-shows bragging about being the best at sleecing suckers. In fact, she even tried to contact him while he was still in jail in the States, although they had never met. She fell in love with him because he was a psychopath (she probably wasn’t aware that this is the word psychologists would use to describe such a « sexy » personality).
Hervey Cleckley wrote about the « devotion of women » towards psychopaths. He seemed to be surprised. Hare mentions it too. I have read quite a few stories about nurses, psychologists or female attorneys falling in love with psychopathic offenders in correctionnal settings and risking everything – leaving their husband, jeopardizing their career – only to get conned and dumped afterwards. You have scores of women lining up to find love in jail, even with the most dangerous serial killers.
These women wouldn’t date a nice guy, a man who would score low on the PCL-R, because they simply can’t equate love with true moral qualities. They want someone scoring high on the PCL-R serenading them with fake romanticism and fake moral qualities.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 6:20am
sabrina says:
Nicolaid, “The personality traits, and values of the perponderance of victims of a S are as follows:
Successful, (not your gold digger variety, IN FACT- more assets are “More to take” by the parasitic S- an automatic turn on for the proverbial mooch- cha-ching!$$$$!),
Aspiring (not accepting of failures, bright, articulate, with goals- a must have for s, who have NO goals)
Trustworthy,(willing to give others a benefit of a doubt-which is “icing” for a S)
Committed, (willing to stay in a relationship for the long haul-in this case a one way ticket to hell)
Nurturing, (giving,self sacraficing- a slam dunk)
Lonely, and insecure fall in the traits as well which is WHY S troll obituaires looking for the jackpot. The previously abused, I am sure make an easier target, but is NOT a prerequesite.
ALtho everyone is a target, the above traits are more dominate in victims.
I am sorry Nicolaid, that you seem unable to grasp the concept that the “victim” is not flawed like you imply. YOu state that you were victimized as well-
Do you blame yourself for the “rationale” of the underpinning behavior that YOU exhibited to get entangled with one?? Business or personal relationship- lets not split hairs, any involvement qualifies here.
I dont disagree that sometimes individuals simply make bad choices in partners, and ignore red flags (we can relate), but it dosen’t give another (a S in this case) the right to abuse ANYONE mentally or physically.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 9:43am
blueskies says:
Nicolaid: I think you make some very interesting points in places. But I had to say that the last paragraph in the post above is total pants.x
No one wants fake serenading and fake romance(they may want romance – that’s a whole other issue, girls particularly are brought up with the notion…handsome princes and all that jazz).
I think your looking at this upside down – there are people out there, from all sorts of lives who get involved and caught up with S/P’s, and they do it because of the manipulative traits of the S/P. No one would be lining up if they knew the maggot ridden face that lies under the mask of their beloved/friend/family member IMHO:)
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 11:34am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Nicolaid, there is plenty of research suggesting that women are attracted to strength, competence, confidence and personal achievement. And at least part of that list could be related to a well-developed sense of self-interest.
However, women are not attracted to men who are going to belittle them, lie, steal, be unfaithful, dominate them against their own best interests. Unless, of course, there is something wrong with the woman. My personal theory on this, as someone who was attracted to a sociopath and stayed with him, is that there was something wrong with me. And it was related to unresolved trauma in my background.
Sociopaths are talented mimes. They are also very concerned with status, because of their own view of the world as being completely organized by relative power (i.e., who “wins”). So obviously a lot of them are going to appear to be alpha males. However, some of them choose the strategy of being needy, being emotional sensitive, being animal lovers, etc. They do what works to enable them to navigate feeling society and earn their living by extracting resources from their hosts. How they appear is not what makes them a sociopath. It’s what they do in relationships.
I think that most of us get to the point where we recognize that the sociopaths took advantage of certain vulnerabilities. And yes, the attraction to certain character traits could be viewed as a vulnerability and even a genetic one. So could the the fact that women tend to bond sexually more easily than men do.
But a lot of us come down to the idea that the reason we didn’t get out sooner, didn’t recognize what we were dealing with and fight off the psychological and sexual miasma came down to something like self-esteem issues. Or self-valuing or self-caring or self-protecting. And in healing we work on those issues.
Does it mean we’ll never be attracted to a strong, competent, confident person again. Probably not. But it does meant that that honesty, dependendability, consistency and compassion are a whole lot higher on our list of reasons to trust someone. And sometimes trust and attraction conflict. However, sociopaths are great teachers in this area. If we’re attracted to someone we learn we can’t trust, we now understand that the risks may be more than we want to take on.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 2:18pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Kathleen – I resent the lost emails. did you receive?
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 2:24pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Yes, I did. But there didn’t seem to be anything requiring a response. I’ve been buried in work.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 3:00pm
learnthelesson says:
Nicolaid -
The handful of men I have had relationships in my life have all presented themselves in a respectful, caring, giving, attentive and reasonable manner.
For the most part nearly all of them carried those traits through to the end of the relationship.
My relationship with my x-S was different. After about 3-5 months into it…he changed…while I remained the same with all of my attributes toward the relationship. I simply didnt have the tools (self-esteem, self-actualization) to deal with a S in my life. NOW I DO. At one point I think I took on the challenge of “solving the mystery of who he became/and why he was so different from the beginning of our relationship”. Mission accomplished…he simply became who he really is and he became so different because his mask fell off. I didnt sign up for that deal. And I certainly would never have been attracted to the real him. The way I was attracted to the other real men in my life who just werent right for me either — but just due to timing and place we were in our lives.
There is no dealing with a S for me now…only deal breakers. Done. Goodbye S.
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Saturday, 30 January 2010 @ 4:49pm
Nicolaid says:
Hi sabrina,
I’ve been thinking about your comment.
Personality traits are not bad or good per se, in my opinion. It depends on the context. And if you are unable to appraise realistically your social environnement, those qualities you deem most valuable and prosocial will only create evil.
Nurturing seems like a quality. But nurturing a psychopath may have dire consequences, and not only for you.
You may be very dutiful, a patriot, someone who has a strong respect for authority. Those personality traits may be considered as qualities in many circumstances. But if you are a soldier and if your officer orders you to shoot a 5 year old kid in cold blood – like those soldiers at My Lai – those very traits may lead you to rationalize those murders as something inevitable or even permissible : « I obeyed the orders. I am a good person. I protected my family ». Sure you did.
You may be proud to be a pillar of the community. But if you fail to recognize that a psychopath has reached the top of the community, you may well become a righteous pillar of the final solution.
The frontier between being « trustworthy » – a quality – and being « gullible » or « tolerant to unethical behavior » is a thin one.
Being committed seems like a quality. But if you are committed to a psychopath, people other than yourself are going to suffer, people who haven’t made the mistake to compromise themselves with such an individual. People who will pay for your lack of judgement or your wobbly ethical standards when it comes to romantic relationship.
Many female partners of psychopathic serial killers helped their lover abduct victims simply by being there in the car, the innocent, reassuring feminine presence. Many of these women were simply nurturing and committed to someone they loved.
Uncompromising individuals are often difficult to live with.
But being uncompromising about outdated conventions or on the ethical standards of your workplace is not exactly the same.
Sometimes you’ve got to be sharp, tough, decisive and uncompromising. Sometimes you’ve got to be able to rebel. Feeling empathy or even tolerance for the psychopath is showing callous disregard for those who are on the receiving end.
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Sunday, 31 January 2010 @ 11:05pm
midlifecrisis says:
Nicolaid – I think you are forgetting it was US on the receiving end – sure some people had children to consider, but for me I was the ONLY one getting damaged.
I think because you haven’t had the experience yourself romantically you still seem to think cold rational logic is the way out – let me tell you – rational logic is not possible after years of being twisted by a psychopath – you can’t even think for yourself – it is impossible. It is only when you start to detach that some thinking for yourself is possible – and even then there is great resistance to it mentally and emotionally as thinking ’selfishly’ seems like a betrayal to HIM you are that brainwashed.
Please be careful with your reponses here – I am feeling triggered and frustrated by your intellectual analysis when you have no practical experience of the emotional maelstrom that exists in these relationships. We are very wounded after these relationships and the last thing we need is someone pointing out all the ‘mistakes’ we made or the stupid ways we threw away our good qualities at the psychopath who used them against us. We know.
We were dumb enough to fall for them and the knowledge we were duped is extremely painful to all of us in addition to the grief process that the end of these extremely complex relationships brings. We don’t need lecturing or an analysis of where we went wrong in our thinking or our morality. We well know what we did wrong. But no matter what we did wrong, we did not deserve what happened to us – nobody does.
As to the example of female partners of serial killers … how do you know what their internal thinking was for being in the car to welcome the victim? You read what they told the Police? How do you know that’s really what they were doing? You can’t take a few examples from isolated cases and generalise it to all partners of psychopaths.
Yes I loved the man I was with – I did lots for him because I loved him and wanted to support him – that’s what people who love one another do. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. However if he had abducted someone you can bet your bottom dollar I would have been first to call the Police. Any form of overt physical violence would have been a no no for me. The psychopath corrupts commitment and nurturing but that doesn’t make those traits and actions wrong – it makes HIM wrong for being unable to accept it and reciprocate.
I disagree that nurture can be evil – it was simply used against us by the psychopath – that doesn’t make us flawed human beings. It makes us normal caring people – the psychopath is the one who is deeply flawed. And some traits ARE inherently evil – like the urge to hurt others – tell me a context or situation where that can possibly be a good trait. The psychopath IS evil – not a person with a skewed or off kilter morality – just an evil person who uses what is good in others to corrupt and ruin them. I don’t know why you seem so intent on blaming victims and targets – I just don’t get that at all.
If you want to really learn about victims and our experience of psychopaths then ask us some questions and read lots. Don’t assume you know – you have never walked in our shoes and don’t know the reality we have individually and collectively lived with. If you really want to see the positive and not so positive traits of the victims of psychopaths I suggest you read Women who Love Psychopaths by Sandra Brown – she outlines the ’super traits’ as she calls them that make particular women very vulnerable to psychopaths – a very good read and very educative for me.
I apologise if my response to you seems harsh – I felt really triggered and upset reading the words you had written again putting the blame at the feet of the victim – yes there were red flags we should have seen early on but psychopaths are always able to make plausible excuses. They really are the most exceptionally manipulative people – unless you have been partnered with one, you cannot believe the reality of it – that someone wouldn’t just walk away very quickly. I used to say about women who got beaten “Well why don’t they just leave?” NOW I understand. NOW I understand – it is not that simple. Of course if it were that simple violent relationships would not succeed for a long time – they would end very quickly. And we know for a fact they don’t. Beaten women return on average eight times to their abuser before finally getting away for good. Life is shades of grey I now understand – not the black and white I thought it was before.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 5:34am
learnthelesson says:
Nicolaid we welcome your input/view as long as it is not intended to put blame on the victims of psychopaths.
MidLife, I support your response completely. In fact my initial triggered response had to be deleted by me and I had to turn my computer off. I realized some people just dont get it unless they have been lured, conned, lied to, manipulated, smoothplayed, and frauded by another.
The good thing is that once youve crossed pathes with a S/P/N and youve been through that hell and back – and you do the work on realizing evil exists in the world and that some people view empathetic good decent caring souls merely as prey/victims to be used and abused and mentally manipulated — you come out of it better prepared to deal with a S/P/N. The goal is to bring awareness to others beforehand, before the god awful experience… Nicolaid you may be on to something if you shed more light on the Psychopath and “its” behaviors and M.O.’s in life in hunting its prey, rather than the victims – that its too late for.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 9:27am
midlifecrisis says:
LTL thankyou for that. Nicolaid I wrote a very angry response to you and had to go back and edit it. I am struggling with extreme feelings after this and naturally am very sensitive to people pointing out to me “Well you could have recognised it earlier and walked away” and “You must have contributed to it” People hate to think that someone is really innocent, but that’s the truth in this case.
It’s not nice to realise you have been duped and made a fool of. It complicates everything in life. The man I split up with is now ruining my reputation in a small city by spreading lots of lies about me to make himself look good – he blames me for the problems in the relationship and for the end of it and has moved onto be with another woman in record short time.
It is the most humiliating and damaging experience I have ever been through and it was humiliating the whole way through for many many years. Every action he took, every stupid hurtful thing he did was broadcast with his spin on it to his band of disciples who think he can do no wrong. I who did nothing wrong and nothing hurtful to him am left at the end of this looking like an absolute crazy bitch – and for what?
For loving him and giving my best effort to making things work, for trying to sort out problems as they arose and for trying to always do the right thing by him. It is the most horrible injustice = I can’t sleep or concentrate. My dreams are filled with images of the two of them lying in bed laughing about me.I can’t stop thinking about it. And what it has done to me.
I was a beautiful vibrant confident woman who could have taken on the world. I had hopes and dreams and plans for the future and he destroyed all of it. More than just destroying the actual plans, he has destroyed my ability to hope and trust. I will never ever be the same again. I am constantly on guard, mildly depressed and very stuck in the position I am in at the moment. I am afraid of everything and don’t see a bright future for myself.
So I am sorry if I was a bit harsh to you Nicolaid, but I just can’t bear it if someone who hasn’t been through this hell says to me “oh well – you should have done better / chosen better / got out earlier / kicked his ass into line / made him do ***/ got rid of him years ago” That is just too hurtful to hear from someone else even though I say it to myself all the time.
What I really want is revenge. I want to give him back some of what he did to me. I want him to suffer in every way possible, but they are very clever and cover their tracks. Everything I have thought of would either be a monumental legal battle that I would probably lose due to lack of witnesses, or would get me into trouble as well as the income was joint and partners are assumed to know what their other half is up to in the relationship. I am stuck and he gets to walk away after inflicting this mortal damage with no penalty and no punishment.
I have lost faith in society and the justice system. What is the point of laws when people can do this soul murder legally and the target can do nothing in return?
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 9:56am
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlife: Your original post was direct, clear and responsible.
all best,
one step
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:06am
learnthelesson says:
Midlife -
I dont know if this will help. But after several years of going through every emotion, state of mind, concept, idea, frustration, defeat, triumph over my bad experience…
Today. This is my view. His penalty and punishment is truly his living life. He walks the earth as a shell of a human. Hollow and shallow on the inside. Masked on the outside. Never knowing or experiencing half of what are capable of.
Me, as a target, the one thing I could do, is the one thing I did – work hard on saving my spirit and my soul – educated myself – find myself again (but this time around even better – prepared with the tools I now need to cope with certain evils and dysfunctions in the world. Because Ill be damned if he gets me to throw in the towel on myself and take the one thing from me that he can never have in his own life – a beautiful spirit and soul – that can live honestly and openly – and trust again (by people who EARN IT) – and FEEL emotions – and BE REAL.
I can tell you one thing tho, they are not lying in bed laughing about you – they are caught up in the lies and deceit – she may even be doing all you did because she doesnt know now its for not – he is an empty robot walking the earth. Almost all relationships with a S go downhill with time – they just cant keep up a balance, a facade…. and ususally the women who STAY with an S have issues of self-esteem, self-respect, self-love as well as not someone that I aspire to be ever again.
One day you will be filled with images of what really goes on in the lives of Sociopathic/dysfunctional relationships and altho you wont be laughing at them in your dreams – I guarantee you will be relieved its NO LONGER YOU on the receiving end – because you know you deserve better.
You still are a beautiful vibrant confident woman who can take on the world. She is still in there — it took me years to begin to believe that about myself – after so much damage to my psyche – but its possible — the focus has to come full circle back to you – who you are – and what you want and deserve — cant rush that — can only work toward that each and every day.
When I think of him now – its with an understanding that he is who is and does what he does because thats who he is. Who am I and who do I want to be going forward???? I want nothing to do with him any woman who wants him can have him – I know her fate with him — a living hell.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:16am
midlifecrisis says:
Thankyou One Step. And thankyou LTL _ I needed reminding of that again. I know intellectually she is sucked in by the lies – I guess I am lonely and want that sense of someone caring about me and snuggling me close and telling me everything will be ok. I can’t let anyone in though – I am terrified of making the wrong decision again.
I know it will turn to crap and she will get what I got, but at the moment they will both be laughing – she knows me and doesn’t like me so this is a bond they can share to deepen their relationship. I don’t like her either so it makes it worse than if it was a s tranger. It’s almost like he’s picked her deliberately to annoy me although it’s much more than that – it’s the confidence, responsibility, vivaciousness and probably woundedness underneath. It feels like I was just replaced with someone similar but much younger – it’s a horrible feeling. The youth has a two pronged benefit – younger people are more naive and choosing her made me feel insecure about my age – nasty on both counts. Her situation may be even worse than mine if he has just selected her to annoy me knowing I never liked her. And yes he knew that. I feel like everything I ever said has been used against me.
Thanks for caring though. I do have times when I know he is a truly pathetic caricature, but tonight I had a nightmare about the two of them – him still living here and sneaking her into his bed under my nose. I tried to take pics with a camera for proof but the camera on my phone wouldn;t work. That’s the frustration about no witnesses and no proof. It’s very clear but now I can’t sleep at all in case I sleep through and will have a tough day at work on top of everything else. Hormones make me feel bad about it all – or maybe this is the true level and I just put on an act that I’m doing fine. It hasn’t been that long for me.
I know he’s a robot – I know it. And I don’t want snuggles with a fake person, but it feels like snuggles and trusting has been forever ruined. I will take your word for now that it comes back!
Thankyou thankyou for caring about me – I have felt really down about it all the last few days.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:35am
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlife – it is not that she has so many qualities that you feel you have lost or is younger, somewhere in your psyche you must know that the truth is: that she is, unfortunately, just a new source. she could be as different from you as day to night – if he sees source he will go for it.
i know you know this – that’s why you are here, and why i am here to nudge you and say, focus on finding your new, wiser beauty. you are different no doubt, as we all are….but YOU’VE GOT IT GIRL!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:54am
learnthelesson says:
Midlife,
You take me back to a time and place I was in really not to long ago… I care for all of us who have to experience such pain and saddness. LF helped me through tremendously – prior to arriving here – I dont think I would have made it… it was just what I needed … to share…to listen…to educate myself…to cry…to be angry…to feel lonely and eventually feel connected again.
I can tell you from my experience that it does get better. Its a post, its a response, its something so off topic that made me laugh one lonely night…its being yourself again in the safety and comfort of others who understand and truly care… but…
)
For me. it was also working on what led me down my path of destruction..I chose not to only focus on being duped, and with a fraudulent being — I chose to delve into myself…basically all the events in my life that I had never really dealt with or realized had shaped me into the person I was (with flaws) and and the person I am now (still with flaws
– but with a much greater understanding and appreciation of myself and the choices others make that could effect me unless I protect care and love myself first and foremost.
It required me to stop looking/searching for that sense of “someone” else caring about me and telling me everything will be ok. For the first time I let in the one person I never thought of – myself. I began to care for and about myself and for the first time believed in and trusted myself that everything will be ok. HARD WORK FOR ME. I ended up relying on myself and LIKING IT – more and more each day… And if others want to care about me and want me to snuggle and share their goodness with me – its a welcome addition but not a need now.
You are right where you need to be for yourself — to learn and grow and heal and acknowledge and feel what you going through –there are so many phases and stages of recovering from a dysfunctional relationship. Eventually we come to place of not giving a rats arse what these monsters are up to/ or who they are with…we just seem to find comfort in knowing we dont need to have the burden of proof on our shoulders we know the truth.
RE: Youth vs Maturity….. she is a prime candidate for prey…she is going to have it ten times worse than you!!!! Personally I now will chose maturity over youth. Hands down.
Try to focus on yourself…try to fall asleep remember the parts of you PRE HIM that you enjoyed about yourself…anything to get your mind off the loser and his newest victim. And most of all – do something special for yourself today. Last year I made a deal here with someone (I think Kindheart
that she share here each day what she did special for herself…to jumpstart the most difficult process of all – regaining our sense of self back (self-worth, self-trust, self-love, self-awareness) – there is no better way to get through this – reclaiming YOU again. You are special and so much more than the mind twisting game playing thought degrading place they led us too. We dont have to follow. We have a choice!!!!!! A life saving, life changing and improving choice!
We can lead our own way again. Feel better… and if you would like to, please share tonight – what you did special for yourself today! xoxo
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 11:42am
midlifecrisis says:
Wow you two have been little angels tonight through a dark night of the soul – thankyou – very much appreciated.
I know he chose her because she is young and dumb and determined, but I also know the youth thing is designed to sting. It shouldn’t be that way for men – that they can just replace replace replace but it is. And it’s societally acceptable. She will be a good mark for him to groom – she’s responsible, likes to think she’s older and more mature than she really is and is out to prove herself among the big fish. She will think she can fix him.
I know it is not all about her and him. I know this process of going back to childhood and seeing when all the seeds of doubt were planted. I know all that – I know it was never anything personal. I was never anything special – just another source of supply as she will inevitably be. I think she will get it worse too if she sticks around. I am going to leave a letter for her with a trusted friend of mine who knows her on the periphery. The friend will give it to her if the relationship lasts for six months or a year or more. It may save her the years I lost. Even though I don’t like her as a person, something in me just doesn’t want to see him able to destroy someone else in front of me. I won’t have any contact with her and there is no point in warning her now- she wouldn’t believe it. But a year from now when the confusion and mind games start – well then if she gets an indication that this is normal for him and this is what he is despite all his protests – well that will be an out for her. She still may not believe it, but at least I will have planted the seed for her and she will get out quicker than me. I have thought about this for quite some time now and it feels like the right thing to do. I know he won’t change – he will try to destroy her like he did me. It would have made all the difference in the world for me to have been given a letter from a previous lover outlining their experience and intimate details that I was seeing already. Had someone else named him a sociopath, I would have started looking at the symptoms and dischord between words and behaviour much sooner than I did. It is a miracle I was even clear enough to start finding information towards the end as I did. So … it’s not revenge – it’s exposure and truth telling and hopefully it will stop a whole lot of damage. I will ensure that the friend gets the letter back so it cannot be used against me in the future.
I think I have to move from here. He is actively destroying my character in the city with everyone he meets and painting himself as the poor abandoned victim – no doubt that is part of the charm that drew her in – poor guy – partner turfed him out for no good reason other than she is a bitch and now he’s struggling on his own. The truth could not be further from that.
I still want revenge. The letter is not revenge. I consider that a kindness to her and paying something good forward so this knowledge I have goes beyond me and protects someone else. I feel sorry for her naivety. But revenge is definitely something I want badly. And I know in all logic, I can’t have it. I don’t know what to do about that. Somehow consoling myself with ‘well at least you’re not the incomplete human … and just let it go … and his life is his penance’ well it doesn’t seem anywhere near fair for what he inflicted on me. Even success is the best revenge just seems hollow right now. Maybe I just need to sit with these concepts and let them wash over me till they fit like a piece of clothing. They don’t feel comfortable right now – it feels like giving up and letting him win, but I know he always gets the last word. Maybe it’s the rebelliousness that should have come out long ago finally emerging and demanding its day! I know fullly that this is a hard learning and spiritually the worst and probably most valuable one I will ever get, but hells bells I coul have done without it at this point in my life! I am crying over spilt milk and I know it – waste of time and energy but my brain keeps going back to it.
Thanks for telling me it gets better. I am trying to be brave and just let whatever needs to come out come out – it’s very very painful and quite a scary process to go through – some days are super up and others feel like scraping the bottom of the well I was trapped in for so many years. But I don’t want to bottle and pretend everything is ok – it’s not ok. I am badly hurt and scarred from this. I have never hated anyone before. I will be glad to move through the hatred – it is not me at all. But it wants to come out – it feels like a childish emotion ‘I hate you because you hurt me’ – it feels like all hates that should have been expressed rolled into one and just emerging now. Lots of change going on inside – I am trusting it will be good change once I get to equilibrium.
Thanks so much for listening and pulling my head out of my ass – the sun has come up and a new day has dawned. One thing I am going to do for myself today … even though I am tired I am going to muster the good energy that comes from love and let that drive the day so good things happen
Much love to you both LTL and One step – you are both beautiful and patient and understanding people and I am blessed to have you in my life!
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 1:03pm
learnthelesson says:
Midlife – I like what you are going to do for yourself today -its one thing we can all do today for ourselves! Thanks…
I also like your idea to just sit with all the concepts you are thinking through. You are definitely going through lots of thoughts and giving them time and consideration rather than acting on them impulsively. BRAVO!!
Keep in mind, we cannot “protect” anyone who doesnt want to be protected especially if she is someone who you said doesnt like you and she knows you dont like her. Sending any letter may really backfire. But writing your thoughts out and contemplating the pros and cons of giving it to her is a great idea. Sit with it for a while and see where it takes you…
The best revenge is getting on with your life. (I HATED HEARING THAT ONE TOO) But man is it SO TRUE. To just up and wash your hands of anything that reminds you of him. You know the truth – as you proceed with your act together and your head held high and proud that you left an abusive dysfunctional relationship lets you not get caught up in his ways.
Im not sure what youre referring to when you say you feel like giving up and letting him win. But I do know letting go is one way YOU WIN. Crying is healing too.. its not a waste of time when your brain NEEDS to revisit everything and process it and go over it — I use to set aside a few hours a day to “go there in my mind” and then turn it off as it got easier to do so. I learned the most when I was willing to be okay with falling apart once in a while —
Everything that you are feeling is part of the unraveling of a traumatic experience. For some it was just that one particular experience.. For others it is layered with prior types of trauma/difficult situations in their lives. You shared that what you want to come out of you are the words “I hate you because you hurt me” … is there anyone else you can think of that you might have wanted to say this to in your past? There may or may not be. But its worth asking yourself as you are going on this journey..
Thank you for sharing your story – everything that comes out – needs to. And at the same time you are shedding light for others going through a difficult time too. You are going in a good direction – change is good …equilibrium is attainable….not easily…but it is! Have a beautiful day letting the good energy in today! Enjoy that warm sunshine for a few minutes today! xo
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 2:11pm
Nicolaid says:
Hi Midlifecrisis
I was aware that my previous comment was possibly going to hurt some of you, and I am very sorry about that. As I said earlier, I have had a very hard time myself after collisioning with a “snake in suit”. It impacted my life so much that after recovering and getting some insight on my experience, I decided to take on studies again to become a psychologist. I still have a long way to go, but I’ll make it.
While agonizing in my psychiatric hospital, I discovered I could write and make people laugh about my plight, paradoxically. My hell could morph into an entertaining topic for others. I made a novel out of it and I had it published. I’m still highly anxious and I get easily depressed, but – although painful – I consider it a valuable part of my personality, one that allows me to develop a strange lucidity over some matters, one that stimulates my creativity and intelligence (when I am not too depressed), and one that incessantly prods me into being more empathic.
Proust wrote that one can only grasp a true sense of conscience once he has gone through hell (approximative quote). Depression is not a goal, but it’s not devoid of meaning.
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 7:40pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
CAmom – I cannot find your post to me earlier, can you tell me where it is? It’ snot coming up in the comments section when i type in your screen name OR queridita
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 8:30pm
autisticsouls says:
yeah, One Step: i posted to you on your It Starts at Home Story. and it disappeared. So i put it in the dog killers comments.
Mike
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:27pm
autisticsouls says:
Nicolaid,
I have also experienced a “Snake in Suit” and came here as there was little else out there in this regard.
I was overwhelmed by the emotional heartache screaming in posts at times. I didn’t understand it myself as i’ve never been there myself. Many times it made my problems seem so much smaller in comparison. Although being faced with one at work did wreck havoc to my calm and I felt like the rug was just being pulled from out beneath me and i couldn’t do anything about it.
It changed my life too. Kinda hard to go No Contact when it’s a job you sort of need to go back to. And Snakes in Suits are, i think more common in our very capitalist competitive USA. So what exactly am i going to do? Quit everytime i’m faced with one at work? I’m in limbo right now.
Are you an Aspie? You sound like so many of us.
Mike
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Monday, 1 February 2010 @ 10:56pm
CAmom says:
Onestep:
I can’t find the entire thread–It Starts at Home. No idea where it went~~Bermuda Triangle? I’m a Luddite w/almost zero computer skills, but still…it’s just…gone! Que pasa?
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Tuesday, 2 February 2010 @ 2:08am
learnthelesson says:
Autisticsouls -
Re: Snakes in suits — I find that my jobs never required me to become best friends with ALL of my co-workers. In fact, its virtually impossible. So why not adopt the rule – if it slithers like a snake – it must be and steer clear. If certain days require interaction then sobeit – but just as with romantic involvement with a “S” – - once you become boring, uninterested, a fly on the wall – they will back off. As much as they can try to control and manipulate you — when you are one step ahead with awareness and limiting interaction (have to go make a call, use mens room, have a deadline I have to meet or simply distancing yourself as much as possible — you will see them move on to the next office victim rather quickly. It does require you to exert energy to stay on your toes with them — but its much less energy than butting heads with them!
Good luck! Make them insignificant to your daily workday.
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Tuesday, 2 February 2010 @ 10:12am
hens says:
MidlifeCrisis – you are now one of my LF hero’s…….
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Tuesday, 2 February 2010 @ 11:37pm
lightsaber says:
Nicolaid,
You raise quite a few issues regarding psychopaths. If I may summarize, I see the following issues in your posts: male/female gender variance (in regard to psychopathic traits and “victim” traits; pathology of the victim; characteristic profiles (outward signs and behaviors) of the psychopath and the “victim”; sociopolitical and legal ramifications; and public perception and the media (although you don’t address this issue head on, it is brought up by the virtue of you citing media representation of cases). Since many of your statements echo what is regularly the perception and voiced response of the majority of the public when confronted with cases of psychopaths and abuse, I think it serves as a great example to clarify some cloudiness and confusion on the topic. Because indeed, there is a veritable dust storm of cloudiness surrounding psychopathy, and also codependency and personality disorders. One could argue that we really are in the dark ages when it comes to understanding what’s going on in these cases.
You wrote:
“males and females have – on average – different expectations when it comes to choosing a romantic partner, and I believe that women are more at risk to get fooled because of the nature of their sexual/romantic turn-ons. Psychopathic males regularly turn out to be Don Juans (see Rocancourt) while the most desired females are often simply physically attractive.”
Yes, men and women, following the general gender spectrum of attraction to mates, are different in what they are attracted to. However, it does not follow from this that women are therefore at more risk for being fooled or conned by a Don Juan type of psychopath, than a man would be at risk for being fooled by a Femme Fatal (the female equivalent of the Don Juan). Both, the Don Juan and the Femme Fatal have the same modus operandi – The Seducer. It could in fact, be argued that men are more at risk with a sexually seductive psychopath con artist, since men, on average place sexual satisfaction higher on their needs scale than do women. But this is quibbling. BOTH men AND women are at risk from the seductive flavor of predator. This brings me to my next point. The Don Juan/Femme Fatal predator is only ONE type of psychopath. Or, perhaps to make a finer point of it, the Seducer MASK or outward primary persona is only one of many. They, the psychos, all utilize this function. Not all of them use it as their primary lure though.
You wrote:
Many women are attracted to status, resources, social dominance, assertiveness, charisma, charm. Male psychopaths can easily fake status and resources : they may wear a classy suit, rent an expensive car, date in posh restaurants and casually mention prestigious, imaginary connections and previous luxury holidays, thus appearing « successful » on the surface. Many women get fooled for the very same reasons organizations unwittingly recruit « snakes in suits ».
This example is very rare indeed. The research shows that the pathology of the psychopath is such that he/she is rarely highly successful. Their inability to control themselves and their impulsive nature inevitably trips them up, at which point they self destruct their lives (either they blow it up themselves by their own anti-social behavior, or they act so heinously as to blow up everyone around them, figuratively speaking), and then have to start from scratch again. The cases of highly successful psychos are the rare cases of those that are high enough functioning that they have set up such an elaborate SYSTEM of SUPPORT that they are impossible to take down. These one are the MASTERS of the GAME. They do this by evilly and deceptively blackmailing everyone they come into contact with. So, to take them down would be an act of self destruction for everyone involved.
The VAST MAJORITY of psychopaths are not as proficient at their game as the masters. They do the same things, but on a smaller scale. They are NOT socially dominant and they as a rule, do not have much social status. They also are not assertive for the most part. They are usually aggressive, or passive- aggressive. Charisma and charm is what they use as bait. All of the expensive and prestigious trappings that you list as an attraction device to lure women to a sociopath, I think are usually ones that can very easily be detected as fake. Generally speaking these are the ones who are caught onto the quickest, unless someone is very naive. I dated one of these types (not for long) a number of years ago, about a year after my divorce and I was just starting to test the dating waters. He was smooth, charming, impeccably dressed and groomed, well spoken when I met him. He complimented me and gave me his business card as I left a martini lounge with a girlfriend. He was a snake. I dated him for a few months, (not seriously) but sooooo much slime started to ooze out of this guy, a lawyer, once he let his guard down, that he made me sick. I broke it off with him Noooo problem. He had all the trappings of material success. I could name drop and brand drop, but I won’t. I hate that crap. The thing about it was that’s not what made me call him a few days after getting his card. It was the CHARM. I called him “High Roller Bill” once jokingly (and quite sarcastically, since by this point I couldn’t stand him and was about to break it off) and he laughed!!! He loved it. He took it as a compliment. The “HIGH ROLLER” lowlifes are easy to spot. They are also in the minority. Not as much of a minority as the MASTERS, but still not anywhere near as much as the “PITY BOYS” or “POOR BOYS”. These guys are by far and away the majority of the psychopaths who bait women, NOT the two examples that you have described.
I point this distinction out because I think it helps to identify the different flavors of the psychopaths. But, more to the point of some of what you wrote, the two types you name, and then claim that somehow these are noticeable and women should recognize them and therefore their own attraction to the psychopathic character is to blame, makes the argument murky. The situation is muc more complicated then that.
First of all let’s look at the obvious KNOWN ENTITY, the MASTER – the one who is right out there in your face obviously a total evil prick (there are females like this too). ANYONE attracted to these types (known, even famous felons, famous philanderers and criminals, etc.) quite obviously have a sickness, a pathology of their own. I believe that anyone attracted to someone who is quite apparently evil incarnate either has an extreme codependency and attraction for severe masochistic reasons OR he or she is a PSYCHO THEMSELVES. The cases when someone, as you put it “suddenly” decides they were abused, if they happen in such cases, are extremely rare. In the first case, most the people who have a pathological/masochistic attraction to MASTERS (usually women), are so far gone into their illness they have no clue and in the rare case that abuse is alleged afterward, it is generally at the behest of a pshychologist, not the “victim”. The other scenario of “suddenly” claiming abuse is one of the “PITY PLOY” by a psychopath. One such famous case of this is Karla Homolka, who claimed the battered woman defense in the Bernardo sex/torture/killings of school girls (a gruesome famous case in Canada). She was anything BUT a battered woman. Au contraire. She is definitely a psychopath herself.
You wrote:
“As a male, I am more attracted to youth, beauty and moral qualities such as empathy, modesty, shyness, honesty. Those qualities are much more difficult to mimic on the long term for a psychopath because she naturally is the antithesis. ”
Are you so sure that they are hard to mimic? Don’t be so sure! Psychopaths have been practicing mimicking real human emotions from the time they could walk and talk. That’s ALL THEY DO. Empathy is one they have a hard time with and dishonesty is generally THE tip-off. But modesty and shyness CAN be faked! Also, something to keep in mind is that shyness may be something YOU are attracted to and may be a desirable trait in some cultures. But, in many other cultures, fun-loving and outgoing are more desirable traits that men look for in women. Also, sexually responsive and not uptight, is another one. I have a good friend that was taken in by a female sociopath like this. I’ve been talking to my friend about psychopathy since my own experience with a P. He now says she is clearly a “Borderline Psycho”, as in Borderline Personality Disorder, but at first she was just very fun, vibrant, affectionate, easy-going and sexy. She knew how to play her GAME. He felt like she was his ideal woman. Until he caught her (walked in on her) sleeping with the guy from 2 doors down and he wasn’t the only other one, and then she went ballistic on him (my friend) calling him every name in the book and throwing things and then threatening suicide. Ooooops there goes the mask!!
For the record, if you still think you can’t be fooled, my MOM acts shy and modest and helpless around every male that she thinks she can reel into her game. She is ANYTHING BUT. She is a total fake, a liar, a blackmailer, a user, a manipulator, a backstabber, vicious and violent.
You wrote:
“I know many women have difficulty leaving their psychopathic man, even when they get severely abused. This is an interesting phenomenon that used to puzzle me a lot. Here again, I believe this rarely happens to those men who get involved with psychopathic women. I believe there are gender specificities when it comes to romantic involvement with psychopaths, although there are huge variations withing each gender, of course.”
Yes. There ARE gender differences that account for this. I do believe that it comes down to women being conditioned from a young age to be more empathic and also for women generally to be more empathetic in nature. I think that the empathy ties in with the BONDING that occurs and the ATTACHMENT that goes on in these relationships. I think that gender differences in men and women make it perhaps easier for men to break that bond.
There is also the issue of OVER accountablility and OVER responsibility that happens with women in relationships, in which women TAKE ON all the problems and blame for what’s wrong (which actually rightfullly should be on the shoulders of the men when it comes to psychopaths) and therefore become crippled in their own self blaming quagmire. Men in general, do this MUCH LESS. Perhaps this is why gay men, having some similarities to women emotionally, are over represented in the cases of men who stay bonded in abusive relationships – just a theory.
So, speaking of parsimony, it would not be wise to hastily assume that those who describe brainwashing, are eschewing responsibility. If we examine the much more complicated scenarios, those who very courageously step forward often to public humiliation, disbelief and possible further attack, are actually guilty of the OPPOSITE. taking TOO MUCH RESPONSIBILITY.
lightsaber
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 12:37am
one_step_at_a_time says:
hey lightsaber, i have been wondering how things are. good the ’see’ you.
one step
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 12:50am
lightsaber says:
Hi one step
thanks for thinking about me!! I have taking some time away from the blog and to concentrate on healing myself, away from LF. I was getting triggered too much a few days back..a week maybe? I’m not sure how long it’s been. I was getting some negative, dark vibes and feeling triggered while reading here instead of the usual supporting “light” so I decided to take a bit of break away and feed the white wolf for myself.
I have gotten into meditating and that is helping me a lot. I am having a lot of physical problems as well that I need to take care of and one of them is back, shoulder and neck pain. It’s horrible. Some days I can barely move. I got myself a beginner’s yoga DVD on Monday and I’ve yet to try it. The past two days have been too painful. Hopefully, I will feel up to it tomorrow.
I also bought a book that has been extraodinary for me. It’s “The Highly Sensitive Person” by Elaine Arons. I am an extremely sensitive (highly in-tuned, responsive and reactive, irritated by the stimulation of any of my senses), empathic person and that has effected my life considerably. So, reading that and understanding what I can do to heal and live in this world without hermiting myself has been a tremendously good thing.
I quickly scanned your article (I can’t remember which day it was posted) and it (you) blew me away. I could not stay on the site, however, and decided to come back when I felt safe. I wanted to read it again and fully take it in and comment. Is it gone now?
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:16am
midlifecrisis says:
Nicolaid – I am going to say one more thing to you …
just because you warn something might be hurtful does not remove the intent to cause upset with words. I accept your apology, but in future please be careful and gentle with your words – we have all gone through tremendous pain here and we don’t need to add to it – we’ve had enough for a lifetime already.
Hens – thankyou … I pondered for quite some time whether to respond or not and if I did then how. It is not like me to speak up and for me this whole incident shows some healing inside. I was able to affirm I felt triggered, identify what was causing it and take some action – I haven’t been that clear in … I don’t know how long. It feels healthier than bottling.
Lightsaber – some excellent points there – there are a lot of incorrect assumptions about psychopaths and these relationships floating around. Thankyou for taking the time to pull apart each point and respond to it.
Sabrina – you put that far better than I ever could have
Thankyou for that response. It did hurt and it made me feel angry and victimised all over again. I don’t want to feel that way here – this is the place I come for uplift, understanding and refuelling.
LTL – the day after was wonderful – driven with passion and this energy that came from nowhere. I was exhausted by the end of it but very satisfied and slept soundly the next night – no more nightmares for now thank goodness.
One step – you are such a lake of goodness – you make everyone feel wonderful with your presence, care and love. Don’t ever change! (except around psychos of course!)
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:26am
one_step_at_a_time says:
lightsaber – ha! i just wrote your name as ‘lightsaver’.
it is gone; i’s the weirdest thing. i have emailed donna and asked why. it is odd that that is would disappear/ be taken down. If it was deleted on purpose, then i want to know why. I find it extremely troubling that the we were not informed, as many people lost posts. it’s really thrown me for a loop.
have you ever tried Bowen? I don’t know if you would have the resources for it – but it is so non invasive a bodywork. it has changed my neck problems…it is very powerful for me. it facilitates a dialogue within all my systems (well, i guess that would be more than a ‘dialogue’; it facilitates a healing conversation within my body – showing it, layer by layer, what it can be)
what are you carrying up there in your head that is making your head too heavy for your neck?
i am glad you are feeling sfe. and good job on your magnum opus up thread.
i haven’t read the HSP. I have read bits from it. I know i am in that camp. I just got my own copy of the Betrayal Bond. the library will be so happy. I need to do one book at a time – but i am sure that HSP would be worth a read for me. I also need to do some work on PTSD SOOOOOn.
I think being triggered here (for me) is a safer place to be triggered. and i am. the thread disappearing was a big one. but i can walk away , and think and don’t have to ‘react’ here. easier than in 3D. good training place.
white wolves unite!
best,
one step
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:33am
one_step_at_a_time says:
beauty midlife: around spath’s i promise i will practice being a stone cold pyscho bitch.
or somethin’ like that.
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:36am
lightsaber says:
Hi midlife
I couldn’t not pull apart each point. When I read something that is chock full of assumptions and missing salient points (for whatever reason), it’s in my nature to notice it and I really felt that I needed to respond because of the damage that can happen, if it’s not done with bad intent.
I think part of the problem is – and this is something I touched on but didn’t get into much – the MEDIA.
I’m going to address this to Nicolaid as well, since I am referring to your post. What I found reading between the lines of your post is that there is a glaring misconception and perceptual distortion in the general public of WHAT psychopaths REALLY are like. This misconception comes from what we read and watch.
The popular image of a psychopath is only the very rare extreme cases. The real danger in this is that the VAST MAJORITY of psychos get away with untold damage because they fly under the radar of this misconception. I see that inherent in your post when you identify mainly the rare types of P’s and wonder why they attract women. It’s NOT those we have to worry so much about. It’s the millions of wolves in sheep clothing that DON’T get all the media attention.
WHY NOT? Because sensationalism sells. It’s more juicy to have a story about a minor starlet or any other woman who falls for an obvious psycho swine then the story of millions of other women embroiled in day to day soul destroying sabotage and abuse at the hands of a malevolent chameleon. That’s a little too ugly for people to want to see, huh?
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:40am
lightsaber says:
one step – I will look up Bowen and see what it’s all about. Almost anything that is gentle and will help, I am willing to try. Thank you for that recommendation
“lightsaver” hahaha I AM also a lightsaver. I use dimmers and candles as much as possible.
I also use colored lightbulbs, christmas tree strand lights instead of normal lamps and hang scarves over my lamps (although I have to be very careful with that as I’ve twice started scarves melting). As you can probably guess, I am sensitive to light and articifial light sources generally bother me :/
HSP is an awesome book. It’s only $15 and really well worth buying!! I have a long list of books on my reading wish list that I haven’t had the money to buy so when I got a bit of spending money left after my monthy expenses this past month, I spent it all on books!! LOL I also bought “The Post Traumatic Stress Disorder Sourcebook” which is very good and “Without Conscience”.
Many things that autisticsouls and her husband Mike have written on LF started stuff going around inside of me. There was a lot of recongition of things that kind of swam around in me for weeks and affected me emotionally as far as identifying similarities in myself. Some of these things were quite startling for me. The HSP book and other research online has really been an epiphany for me of sorts and I have both Mike and his wife to thank for that. Which I will do in another post
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:55am
midlifecrisis says:
Lightsaber – are you referrring to the Highly Sensitive People book? I think the one I read was titled Too Loud, Too Bright, Too Fast – about sensory overload. Excellent read and I related to a lot of the points the author made. It had some good strategies for reducing tension – I might look into buying a copy too – I got mine from the library. I also got a lot from reading the Introvert Advantage … I come out as an introvert on personality tests, but I wonder if that is the result of the experience? According to Sandra Brown most women who love psychopaths are extraverts … something to ponder over – as if I don’t have enough thinking to do lol
You are so right about the media … I had never seen a 60 minutes or doco on just an ordinary person who got abused by a psychopath. All I had seen were serial murderers, rapists and really awful criminals. So I stupidly thought to myself “I’m fine- he hasn’t had a single conviction and that’s how you tell”
We need to see ordinary people who have been through it. We really need to see what it’s really like – not the hype and fakeness. I would have expected a bank robbery from a psycho … not that I was the bank and he was intent on bankrupting me – it’s just too far removed from the popular perception.
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:08am
one_step_at_a_time says:
lightsaber – you have to use SILK scarves.
i saw you as gathering light – colored light.
i will check out this ptsd sourcebook.
night night.
x
one step
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:09am
midlifecrisis says:
One step – hello you gorgeous thing you
How is the week going for you?
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:09am
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlife – just a quick note about introversion/extroversion. some of the testing i have done (mostly career oriented) about that paradigm qualifies the distinction by what ‘feeds’ us. not necessarily how ‘outgoing’ we are.
If you walk into a loud big party does it feed you, or do you get fed by quiet smaller or singular pursuits. I spent most of my early life introverted – and i wonder if that was a response to my family and situation (isolated in the boonies with a village of people all from the same fuckking gene pool). As a person in my 40’s i became very into connecting with people in groups – not necessarily an introvert or extrovert activity, but oddly enough, i started being fed by those situations and less and les fed by my alone time.
i want that back now. i want to be fed by my alone time. i am my only true reliable source. oh my, that’t a thinker.
night. x one step
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:16am
one_step_at_a_time says:
midlife – life is a bit harsh. triggered as hell, and toxic from chemicals again. skin is burning and i am nauseous.
and its 2 am here! going to bed NOW!
i am freakn about fidning work, but i am still pretty positive. and getting quite ballsy with the negative talk in my head this week (pounded the matress when it started first thing this am and said, NO!!)
AND – i had a work situation today that i handled extremely well: ever so sweetly went on the offensive, ’cause i knew i could potentially get a grilling about something i was making a report on. I AM learning.
okay, now…ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:20am
lightsaber says:
I totally agree with you midlife. There needs to be more exposure of the garden variety snakes that eat up everyday people. One of my long term goals is to make a video (perhaps more than one) about this exact thing and post it on Youtube. The more the word gets out to people, the less power these vipers will have.
I think the book you read is a different book. It sounds really good as well. I know I’m definitely an introvert. I think almost anyone, introvert or extrovert can be had given the right circumstances.
one step – ahhh silk scarves! ok haha
That’s very cool the way you saw me as gathering colored light. I like that and I do kind of do that
good night ((hug))
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 2:40am
Nicolaid says:
Hello Mike,
I don’t think I am an aspie. I took an online self-report out of curiosity, after reading your comment, and the result suggested I was « likely neurotypical ». But I possibly bear some resemblance with the syndrome, I don’t know.
Hello Sabrina
I could easily have written just what you want to read. No doubt you’d have found me sensitive, well-informed, rational, honest and quite charming.
Have you read Cleckley ? Have you noticed the following entry in the index ?
Devotion of women for psychopaths, 180-182,
196, 197-198, 444
I will follow your advice and won’t comment anymore.
I wish you the best
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 3:44am
autisticsouls says:
deleted
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 1:53pm
autisticsouls says:
Hey One Step, could be a glitch maybe. Some of my posts go on moderation first before posting.
Mike
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 4:00pm
autisticsouls says:
autisticsouls says:
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Hello Nicolaid,
Those online AQ tests aren’t very accurate, except to determine ‘a type’ of Aspie, mostly the stereotype of Aspie, the geeky type. Most of our Aspies wouldn’t be Aspies on those tests alone. we have a severe Aspie who seems more autistic than anything and preserved speech seems all that puts him in the Asperger category.
Honest critical exploration, and analytical thought is one common aspect of many with Asperger Syndrome which was why I asked. Also some of our intense and complex (but not aspie) gifted kids carry that trait as well. Some of our kids do seem coldly insensitve and detached in their explorations and dialogues on a subject, while some others carry their hearts on their sleeves.
We just got a website going that the kids got started up, if you’d like to take a look. It’s really new though, but they’ve got some good links in there for now. We started out very Waldorfy, so many of our kids have been communing with nature and learning hands on skills, like soap making and pottery, glass making, horse back riding, and stuff like poetry on the beach, philosophy talks in the park, as a regular school day before we exposed them to much technology, so we are way behind on some things.: http://autisticdimensions.webs.com/
This site also has great links, since most of ours are child centered: http://talentdevelop.com/
We belong to a learning collaborative and am now in indecision whether to devote my time here with the kids, which will be for FAR less money than what I have become accustomed to. How I am going to make the mortgage will become a real issue if I stay here instead.
Thankfully I have a wife and child who wouldn’t notice or care if we live in a trailer or mansion, or whether i have to bike to work or have a car to drive.
But the investment in our children seems to be more of a pertinent mission these days. It’s a question of doing what I love to do and survive on very little money or tolerate the other because it pays for things I need and want with a little extra on the side.
I am also tired of the mindgames in the workplace and with a psychopathic co-worker who has me in his target zone. he pretty much told me “..to get with the program..” and “…not get in his way, that I’ll be sorry if i f*&k with him…”
Now I’m not going to ignore issues, or chose to pretend I don’t know what he is doing. If I return there it’s not possible it would be under any passive compliance, even though that would mean an all out war between us which I am not at all confident that I will win, more likely I see that it’s likely it will not end until he has seen to it that I have a nervous breakdown or whatever else he has planned for me.
So I am spending time with the kids right now until the matter resolves itself out. For now contributing to the kids childhood and their learning experience has it’s rewards.
Have you looked into Dabrowski’s theory of overexcitabilities? http://talentdevelop.com/Dabrowski.html
Or Aron’s Highly Sensitive People? I have noticed that one type of personality (psychopathic) does seem to single out and target another type of personality (Individuals prone to higher sensitivities) http://www.hsperson.com/index.html
MIke
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 4:28pm
autisticsouls says:
Lightsaber says:
“…I think part of the problem is – and this is something I touched on but didn’t get into much – the MEDIA.
….that there is a glaring misconception and perceptual distortion in the general public of WHAT psychopaths REALLY are like. This misconception comes from what we read and watch…”
As a parent, and caregiver to others with children,(autistics and HSP kids) that would likely grow up to meet the target list of many psychopaths, I am at a loss of how to protect our kids from them or how to bring awareness to them of predators like these, with not enough ‘everyday’ media examples to show them. they all know about ’strangers’ approaching them, and ‘bad touching’ and all of that, but the subtle predators that can infiltrate without notice is a real issue that I am concerned about the lack of awareness of.
Mike
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 4:43pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Ms Smith: You and your intrinsic protective nature rock!
best,
one step
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 6:04pm
hens says:
Jane ~~!
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:07pm
JaneSmith says:
Big smooch! Muah!
Still reading and caring over here in frozen land Northwest Pacific area. Stupid winter. Hurry up Spring, dadburnit!…haha.
Love you folks. Always and forever.
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:18pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hens – you’re early tonight!
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:18pm
hens says:
Onestep – I had to give Jane a smile – cause she always gives me one. I have been thinkin Nicolaid would bring her out of hiding. I knew she could respond in an appropriate but to the point way. He does seem like a smart feller but unless one has been run over by what he seems to be expert about he dont know nuttin, just a bunch of words…
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:28pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
hens – its fortifying to know there are layers and layers of us protecting this space.
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 7:59pm
autisticsouls says:
One thing that struck me about this post was that we also have a unresolved murder in our family, where the suspect has (we feel) another victim in his charge who we feel knows what happened and for some reason is defending him. We have wondered why she is defending him still, is she afraid? How much did she actually help him out? Why won’t she come forward? She is very brainwashed and very broken herself we know this much.
My wife’s aunt took a stand and said, “Enough is Enough!” she was reclaiming her life after so many years being under his thumb. She was very optimistic about starting her life over. About being free of him, even advising the other victim to break free from his hold. She got killed soon after.
We even had a segment on Channel 7’s Out for Justice: Noemi Custodio
http://www.wsvn.com/features/a.....?autoStart
It was pretty much an all out appeal for her (his other victim) to come forward, she is his alibi, but from what we know of her she is but another one of his victims’ and has not come forward maybe out of fear, or whatever else… She is not like him, and we are trying to understand why she will continue to cover up for him. It is an open case still, she was my wife’s aunt and and one of her primary caregivers, and the world to her children and special needs grandchildren. So when Nicolaid said:
“…Feeling empathy or even tolerance for the psychopath is showing callous disregard for those who are on the receiving end…”
I thought of my wife’s aunt and how she broke out from his spell, but his ‘other victim’ did not, and because of her complete devotion and dedication to him, he is still walking free today after taking the life of a valued member of our family. We like to know why. why someone not like him could be so enveloped into him that even murder won’t shake her out of it.
Remember what is known in the mainstream media is what we think IS unless otherwise directed or investigated into. I, myself knew nothing about subtler psychopath’s, like workplace psychopath’s, and other bullies, until just recently.
I seek to understand, like Nicolaid seemed to want to understand who came here by what he experienced and seemed to be looking for more information to understand the whys of things. There isn’t much ‘out there’ in awareness.
Sometimes there are people who will come to seek information here, since there is really isn’t much anywhere else and some of them aren’t going to come here to hold hands while they try to make sense of things or understand what happened. We still have an unresolved murder, we still are afraid to send our kids to public school, we want to understand more about why it is this is still happening with little awareness or information out there, and why some people allow it and what we can do to stop this sort of thing from continuing on.
Why is there not enough information out there media-wise preparing folks for this sort of thing? The extreme cases down to the subtler cases. Sometimes it’s difficult to dissemate information or disscuss things without feeling like walking on egg shells afraid to say the wrong thing around here.
Mike
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Wednesday, 3 February 2010 @ 8:36pm
autisticsouls says:
No, not so safe here really, not unless you agree with everyone else, not if you are not adequately informed of the latest research that makes about 90% or more of our current population which in turn will also not be so safe here. And don’t even anyone come around asking questions with preconceived notions of what a psychopath is or does based on what the media tells us and the books we may have read on the subject because then it’s an automatic personal attack. Not if being honest is also construed as a personal attack. people don’t want honesty, they to want to be lied to.
Although LF comes up second or third on a Google search of “Workplace Sociopaths”, I’ve been warned that unless one has been intimately involved with one, one really does not belong here. Anyone with preconceived notions fed by the media of what a psychopath is and does will also instead of being educated here will likely be pounced upon and character attacked instead. And it seems completely acceptable to do that here. I don’t like anyone being bullied who did not deserve to have been. I hate to see anyone unjustly treated in a manner they did not deserve.
I think over 90% of the population has a stereotype in mind of what they assume what a psychopathic experience is, so instead of educating them I guess they should all be mobbed or why not just crucify them all for not knowing or understanding what the actual reality of what a ‘romantic’ psychopathic experience can be?
This really bugged me a lot. I have heard from others that they have been attacked and jumped here when they were looking for information for their issues but because it was not the same experience as others they had no where else to go for support. If they warned me about this not being a good place for support, why did my wife even bother to sign us up here? I told her I didn’t belong here. It’s obvious I’m not wanted here either. Somewhere along the way I have overstayed my welcome here, even before I witness an online thrashing.
I’ve been told by others that this is a: “people who only have slept with a psychopath ONLY” online support group and anyone with any other non romantic issues or experiences with psychopaths would not only, not have much to relate to, but will also be made to feel VERY unwelcome here. I realize the truth in that now.
There is little mention of corporate psychopaths, workplace bullies, everyday schemers, and other psychopaths that prey on society out there. This is a small effort, and it’s a noble effort, but this is a strictly: “Those who have had psychopathic lovers only” arena, Hence, the name LoveFraud. I guess what would anyone not having had the same experience be doing here anyhow?
My friend told me a psychopathic victim, is a psychopathic victim, we’ve all been burned by them, we’ve all suffered in their hands, many who are not just romantically involved with them have just as much been destroyed by them, but she’s visited this site before and told me there is no solidarity here. Other ‘types’ of psychopathic victims should go somewhere else or risk further emotional pain here on LF.
That there isn’t much to do here when it’s so very cliquey and you don’t belong to the same club.
And teachers have learned to suffer alone. Here in Florida psychopaths rule the public school system, teachers are bullied, parents are bullied, children are abused, and although it’s really bad in Florida it looks like a nationwide epidemic.
One teacher who questioned a psychopathic administrator was forced to quit a year AFTER she was named Teacher of the Year.
Another one was doing her job ensuring that students were receiving the proper funding, she was ostracized and bullied for it, she had to transfer out to another district where her history followed and the psychopathic administrators there played out the same abuse. Some school administrators like to ‘play’ with funding and even though it was her job to look through things she was singled out and emotionally tortured for doing her job.
One teacher felt that teaching would be her life, got out of school looking forward to start. She transferred out of state here with high hopes ‘of making a difference’. But the injustices were too much for her to witness, or ignore, when she questioned them she was then targeted. She was laid off from work and could not be rehired, she could not sell her house, or pay her student loans, or do what she came here to do, which was to teach. After foreclosure she became severely depressed and suicidal. All she ever wanted to do was to teach.
One teacher after years of devotion to her students, who had wanted to be a teacher since she was a child, was bullied until she suffered a nervous breakdown, her crime for being targeted was recommending that a child needed speech therapy during an IEP meeting. She is now a dog groomer.
Parents who were immigrants, ended up having their severely autistic child placed into ESOL instead of ESE, by the school team recommendation, prompted by psychopathic administrators and bullied teachers too afraid to say anything sitting in the meeting frozen, eyes staring on the floor not looking at the parents who were pleading at them to say something. The mother didn’t understand how her speaking another language at home had caused her son’s autism.
School Administrators in Due Process hearings routinely force teachers and aides to lie in court or suffer the consequences. One Special Ed teacher was coerced into agreeing to lie in court, when she was unable to, she ended up not only having to leave her job but starting anew in another state as no one else would take her here.
Some aides came forward and testified in court against a Special Ed Veteran Teacher who was physically and verbally abusing her special needs children by pushing them, and kicking them, dragging them around and hitting them routinely. The teacher returned to work after a mere suspension, the aides who have come forward have all lost their jobs, or have been made to quit.
We have had school board members under investigation by the FBI and some arrests have been made. The school district is arrogant and belligerent in their response to the federal investigation. School officials have prompted school employees not to discuss things or to cooperate with the federal investigation.
Other school employees stay quiet and look away to avoid being targeted next. They have mortgages, families, health insurance. They know when to look away. They avoid becoming targets, and turn their heads away in shame when another teacher is targeted. Thankful that today it isn’t them.
Psychopaths in the school system don’t work alone, they are organized. They have free reign to do as they please, and take special joy and humor in the destruction of the careers of one of their targets. It’s like a special psychopathic blood bath when they get together and they decide to destroy someone’s career, they ensure others do not move ahead, and reward their lapdogs. Some have laughed if they can get the individual to break down, some even have made bets on it.
We had psychologist advocate for students from the CARD center uneasy by what he stated was the amount of psychopaths in the public schools. The Psychologists and advocates from the public center weren’t allowed on the school grounds. Their recommendations were ignored. Parents, helpless as the center tells them they are helpless in defending their children or them from the schools. That word stuck on me, “…our schools are run and controlled by ‘Psychopaths’…”
I did not understand why so many school employees would protect, stand by, or defend the psychopathic administrator or whoever else it was. Their fear and passive complacency was damaging us all. One teacher stated that she has kids, health insurance a mortgage. She simply couldn’t risk it.
The comment made by Nicolaid before he was made to shut up and was told to not post anymore on LF, struck home to me, and others here victimized by psychopaths in an entire different arena, “…Feeling empathy or even tolerance for the psychopath is showing callous disregard for those who are on the receiving end…”
I think when it is an intimate relationship it’s easy to view it as simply something only happening to oneself. In other arenas such as in the workplace or in the school system, tolerance for the psychopath is being a passive contributor to someone else’s abuse and is “…a callous disregard for others on the receiving end…” And I think it took another victim of workforce psychopath to really understand what he was saying.
Love victims seem to only see what has happened to themselves, they seem too caught up in their own pain to see anything else outside of themselves. Just not seemingly able to see the damage done outside of themselves. Like only their pain and suffering is valid. Many others will disagree. they suffered just as bad even if they didn’t sleep with a psychopath.
Like a local woman here who suffered abuse for years but wouldn’t pull herself together in time to protect her children, so that no matter what she says now, her kids still consider her a passive contributor to their abuse.
Other psychopathic victims (not romantically involved) do seem to see the psychopath’s handiwork in themselves and others. Take any school teacher here in Florida, unless they are a lapdog, they know the full scale of psychopaths carnage.
But why am I even bothering? What are ‘we’ doing here anyhow? This isn’t a “victims of psychopaths” forum, it’s a “victim lovers of psychopaths only” forum.
But although my friends have told me to not bother, that this isn’t even worth wasting our time here. It just needs to be said.
Like Nicolaid, we as a family also read have also read Hervey Cleckley, the Mask of Sanity specifically in regards to as the basis of what Nicolaid was assessing and basing what he knew on: Devotion of women for psychopaths, 180-182, 196, 197-198, 444
We’ve also all read it. Numerous times, many times until we can repeat it verbatim, in attempting to understand why the ‘other victim’ of my aunt’s wife’s murderer still defended him to the point of possibly being an accomplice to murder. We read it over and over in an attempt to understand her complete devotion and dedication to him. She is the only reason he is still walking free today after taking the life of a mother and grandmother, a very pertinent member of our family. We’ve all been robbed, because she is dead. No second chances here. No starting her life over after all. She was murdered. And we wanted to understand why? Why someone not like him could be so enveloped into him that even murder won’t shake her out of it.
We even had a segment on Channel 7’s Out for Justice: Noemi Custodio
http://www.wsvn.com/features/a…..?autoStart
But you know although the guidelines for comments included that animated discussions of different points of view to be healthy and respected I really don’t see that happening without folks getting chased out of here. Nor did I see that this is a place where one can adequately learn about sociopaths, psychopaths, because animated disscussions and diffe