French to introduce law banning psychological abuse
PDF Those of us who have been psychologically abused by sociopaths—whether we’re male or female, and whether the abuser is male or female—know that the abuse should be criminal. It appears that in France, it just may happen.
A Lovefraud reader sent me a link to an interesting story in Time Magazine. Legislators from France’s ruling party are expected to introduce a bill that would outlaw “conjugal abuse of a psychological nature” in both married and unmarried relationships.
According to Time,
The legislation seeks to target the verbal and mental denigration, humiliation and manipulation that typically lead to physical abuse. The hope is that the bill will help prevent the emotional wounds that words often cause before a punch is ever thrown.
I hope the law gets passed. I hope it works. We’ll have to see what happens.
Read the article on Time.com:
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
learnthelesson says:
Kathy- I posted my “book” over you. Im going to read your post now.
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learnthelesson says:
I almost wrote earlier today :
It takes a village to raise a child….
It takes a LF community to continue to raise the adult “children” who didnt get to be a part of the village along the way…
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I totally agree about raising children in community. I can’t write now because I have to go cook dinner. But I just remember how isolated my family was, and how some many dysfunctional beliefs and behaviors flourish in this kind of hothouse/pressurecooker environment.
I’ve read about more tribal cultures, where childcaring was shared and the children had many places to go, as well as an environment that was generally safe, because everyone knew everyone. And it always sounded like a kind of heaven to me.
I’m trying now to support communal housing groups, because I remember what it was like to live in Spain, where the villages were tightly built, with lots of open space around them. They were communities, in a way that I’ve never seen in the states. The closest I’ve seen is some church groups that build multi-faceted community outreach and support systems for their members.
Mike wrote that children are resilient and heal faster than adults. That is true, if they get a chance to heal. The problem is giving them that chance. And hopefully, before they join that group that gives up. Because in my mind, that’s where the anti-social behavior starts. Temple Grandin writes about the concept of panic, the feeling that access to a necessary resource has been cut off. The other side of panic is, I think, the kind of distrust and despair that, at the far end of the spectrum, becomes the pathological self-reliance of sociopathy.
I’m babbling. Off to the kitchen.
Good night all.
Kathy
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learnthelesson says:
I must get some shuteye or I will make absolutely no sense at all!! LOL
Goodnight everyone. For those “in the snow” its a beautiful sight sparkly sight tonight! Enjoy and be safe!
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learnthelesson says:
I just read Kathys post about panic.
The kids that give up….
The opposite side of the spectrum – and what results.
Ive always believed that to be true with my ex. Certainly not ALL – but some are from a direct result of having a different kind of stunted inner child – with no interest in changing and growing and learning trusting etc. within them -sociopathy is sure to continue to be born again. Perhaps genetically environmentally and or both.
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learnthelesson says:
Oh my now I just read Hens post…. HOW IN tHE WORLD DO YOU MANAGE TO SUM UP WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY IN SIX SENTENCES…. can you be my interpreter here! Im jealous you can do that ! Six lines…count em…everything so simply spoken in six lines…. my hero!! LOL
Dont tell me the trick is to type with your feet either! xoxoxoxo G’NIGHT
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autisticsouls says:
Witsend thank you for your post. Sometimes we can’t get away from genetics, no matter what we do. In our case we’ve been told autism would be a certainty. And that isn’t easy in some cases as for a few folks the lines between autism and some form of sociopathy gets thin and blurred if not positively supported enough. Not really in the lying, manipulation range but in the aggressions and anxieties arena i think. Some aspie’s i’ve seen can with their anxieties and issues if left ignored seemingly go in another direction altogether looking like something unrecognizable. not really classic psychopathy but something sort of dangerous still.
We’ve done something called Floortime, it’s explained in the book called Engaging Autism, by Stanley Greenspan which i feel can also work with kids who are at risk for sociopathy as well if intervened early enough.
Awareness is the key here which the mainstream hasn’t even gotten around to it yet in regards to at risk kids. Can’t really do much early intervention when folks aren’t even addressing an issue until adolescence huh?
The success we’ve been seeing with autism is hitting it very young, aggressively engaging the child positively very early on. But that is not happening with kids genetically at risk for sociopathic disorders. it’s an ignored issue. it’s not even something you can manage alone, i don’t think. we have a whole team of therapists and family members and support staff doing it. So many parents and parent groups are aggresively doing it. the kids may still be autistic but in a more positive and manageble outcome.
I don’t know an autistic kid here who isn’t receiving some form of early intervention, an individualized educational plan, or senory integration measures that transforms some kids considerably.
We really feel that at risk kids can be intervened early on, if there were enough resources and other folks don’t delay the process by saying they’ll grow out of it and by then it may be too late.
that’s why this whole awareness thing is so important as a society, because if early intervention can reform the face of autism i truly feel it can be productive in rewiring other at risk cases.
Just like traditional forms of parenting won’t emerge a child out of autism. I don’t think traditional forms of parenting and education will be so effective in other forms of at risk children. it’s a society effort to start recognizing issues and risks early on and treating it. i feel we must intervene with a rewiring or realigning of genetic framework into a more favorable outcome even if the genetics are still there.
not that every child of a sociopath will have the genetics involved but that early intervention can’t hurt. it will only be more positve for the child in other areas.
The DIR Floortime model is explained as:
The Developmental, Individual Difference, Relationship-based (DIR®/Floortime™) Model is a developmental and interdisciplinary framework that helps clinicians, parents and educators conduct a comprehensive assessment and develop an intervention program tailored to the unique challenges and strengths of children with Autism Spectrum Disorders (ASD) and other developmental challenges. The objectives of the DIR®/Floortime™ Model are to build healthy foundations for social, emotional, and intellectual capacities rather than focusing on skills and isolated behaviors…”
http://www.icdl.com/DIRFloortime.shtml
My parents did the SonRise Program with me which helped consideraly to pull me out and it was a based alot on the same concept. engaging and creating that social foundation. Some parents do it even with their non autistic non developmental disabled kids with great outcomes.
That’s why i feel the outcome is a lot more positive today than it was years ago.
But awareness and intervention is critical for at risk kids and that just isn’t happening. as a society our investment in our children is so poor. parents needs the skills, the means and the support to properly assist their children.
We did attachment parenting too and had to wear my kid all over wrapped to our chests instead of being in a stroller, and co-slept for three years. it was so hard!! but we got used to it. she is still considered severely autistic but more responsive and interactive than ever expected.
some parents of autistic kids want the autism to completely disapear, those kind of expectations can lead to a huge pitfall into disapointment if it doesn’t quite pan out. All we can do is try our best with what we can do.
Mike
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OxDrover says:
Did you guys know they made a movie about Temple Grandlin? It will be on cable TV (which I don’t have) but would love to see it as she is one of my heros. Her insightful knowledge BECAUSE of her autism has revolutionized livestock handling equipment. In fact, she made a “squeeze chute” that she can get inside and use a handle to “squeeze” herself to calm her anxiety. How COOL is that.
When I had my babies, we swaddled them in caccoon type wrappings as many Native American tribes did, and it seemed to calm them as they adjusted to being outside the tight confines of the woom into the world. In many cultures babies are tied to the mother’s back for many months and generally sleeps with the parents, and are breast fed up to 4 years of age. Our culture puts the baby to bed ALONE at a time when I think the children need the comfort of warmth and closeness of another body.
I think we focus now on the “sexual aspect” of “sleeping together” where when I was growing up in the South, it was common practice for children to sleep with parents, or at least in the same room, or siblngs to sleep together in the same bed. In colonial times at inns, even strangers of the same sex slept in a bed together.
I’m not so sure that our current practices are all that great. Yea, I know about Michael Jackson “sleeping” with children, and that’s not what I am talking about.
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learnthelesson says:
WOW – Good to know and good timing! Its on tonight at 10pm!!!!!! HBO – THX OXY!
http://blogs.newsobserver.com/.....erformance
And I agree about how so much has changed with regard to nurturing our babies/children. It seems parents sometimes are forced to separate from them much earlier than ever – due to limited maternity leave in workplace and pressure to raise this independent superhuman children- just so much more pressure on parents to “do the right thing” — not even knowing for sure what the ” right thing ” is. But judging from the children and grown children in the world today — the “experts” newfound advice was wrong.
I miss swaddling my kids. Once in a blue moon my 9 year old son will climb up on me and let me cuddle him in my arms and I tease and rock him like a baby — I think this is the last year he will do that
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OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
Sometimes when I get into bed at night (alone) I am so HUNGRY just to cuddle and “spoon” with any WARM BODY as I fall asleep. The loneliness of a solitary bed is sometimes over whelming. My little dog sleeps with me and believe it or not, that does help to feel a little bit of warmth, but it would be so much better I think to just cuddle with a HUMAN. Sometimes I will go lie on the couch to sleep- because it doesn’t feel so lonely to sleep alone when you are on a couch as it is not somewhere two people COULD sleep.
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Nicolaid says:
Hi Mike,
From a distance, it’s difficult to form an appropriate judgement on your situation or to give you advice on such an important decision. You probably already read Babiak & Hare’s book. You might also find some valuable insight in Tim Field and Marie France Hirigoyen s’works. Stalking the soul was my eye-opener. The first half of the book focuses on workplace bullying ; the second half on abusive relationships. I think many readers of this blog might enjoy Hirigoyen’s writings. She is highly popular and respected in France.
I’ve briefly visited your links. I still don’t think I am an aspie, although I fit some of the criteria listed in the DSM-IV. I am an introvert, a very socially anxious individual who usually keeps a cold, distant façade. I hide myself behind a poker face and speak with a monotonous voice too. I instinctively keep my emotions in check and I feel ashamed when they happen to leak out. I never use exclamation marks when writing, for instance (too hysterical for my liking), let alone salvas of them ( !!!!!). I force myself to use smileys by and now in order to avoid major misunderstandings, but grudgingly so.
My novel had, by contrast, a pretty hysterical tone. The narrator was very emotional all along. Two of the authors I admire most – Céline and Houellebecq – are situated at the opposite ends on the continuum “emotional displays vs outward coldness”.
I probably also fit the « all-absorbing interest » criteria for Asperger’s syndrome. I guess most of my friends are stunned by my abnormal preoccupation with psychopathy. But several personality traits (need for cognition, need for achievement) and life events can account for this apparent monomania. Moreover, psychopathy is hardly a narrow subject. I shall ask my psychiatrist his opinion when I meet him next week.
Dabrowski’s theory of overexcitabilities reminds me of Gray and Heysenck’s hypotheses on the extravert/introvert dimension.
http://www.personalityresearch...../jang.html
Hirigoyen :
http://www.webheights.net/Grow.....en/sts.htm
Tim Field :
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/
Best regards ( !!!!!),
Nicolaid
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learnthelesson says:
Nicolaid shares
“I am an introvert, a very socially anxious individual who usually keeps a cold, distant façade. I hide myself behind a poker face and speak with a monotonous voice too. I instinctively keep my emotions in check and I feel ashamed when they happen to leak out. I never use exclamation marks when writing, for instance (too hysterical for my liking), let alone salvas of them ( !!!!!). I force myself to use smileys by and now in order to avoid major misunderstandings, but grudgingly so.”
This stopped me in my tracks Nicolaid! As it made me realize I use exclamation points (excited, passionate about something, and to make a point.) And smiley faces/ sad faces to be able to “express” emotion thru technology.
As you cant imagine doing that – I cant imagine hiding behind a “poker face”…then again when we play cards or boardgames for fun at home everyone can always tell when I have a good hand or winnining notion because of my expressions! Im not good at hiding “me” – never was. What I would hide was my “pain” tho…so well that even I didnt know I was doing that as a child.
Excitability – the ability to react to stimuli. Thats me to a T.
Perhaps keeping emotions in check is a good thing -in moderation. I have yet to feel ashamed of my emotions. Except around people who point out or make me feel ashamed of my real raw emotions. But I think thats because they cant relate to the comfortableness I have with my own emotions. Most of all Ive never judged or thought to judge what people choose to do. I just never took the time to associate (!!!!! with hysteria) or associate smiley faces with anything other than the person honestly is smiling while writing – never crossed my mind that someone is forcing themself to do that. I cant relate.
I found this to be interesting about extraverts/introverts…
The trait of extraversion-introversion is a central dimension of human personality. Extroverts tend to be gregarious, assertive, and interested in seeking out excitement. Introverts, in contrast, tend to be more reserved, less outgoing, and less sociable. They are not necessarily loners but they tend to have smaller circles of friends and are less likely to thrive on making new social contacts. Introverts are less likely to seek stimulation from others because their own thoughts and imagination are stimulating enough. A common misconception is that all introverts suffer from social anxiety or shyness. Introversion does not describe social discomfort but rather social preference. An introvert may not be shy at all but may merely prefer non social or less social activities.
Extraversion and introversion are typically viewed as a single continuum. Thus, to be high on one is necessarily to be low on the other. Carl Jung and the authors of the Myers-Briggs provide a different perspective and suggest that everyone has both an extraverted side and an introverted side, with one being more dominant than the other. In any case, people fluctuate in their behavior all the time, and even extreme introverts and extraverts do not always act according to their type.
I think I fluctuate….lol
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JaneSmith says:
I sincerely apologize to Nicolaid for attacking him. As Donna said, it was unwarranted.
I allowed my overprotective anger sway and yes, it was wrong. I won’t do it again. Not here, on my favorite place on the internet with some of the most wonderful people I’ve ever had the privilege of knowing.
But still, I don’t think it’s productive to dismiss the pleas of others when they ask you to just stop and you just continue on. Attacks, insults can walk a very fine subtle line as we all know.
Anyway, I don’t wish to be be banned from such a lovely space so I’ll take my own advice and, without knowing the full story, will keep quiet.
Peace…
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learnthelesson says:
JaneSmith -
We grow, we learn, we express, we protect, we retract, we press on here together on LF…thankfully Donna seems to have an open door policy here for anyone who wishes to become educated, as well as add insights and heal and find personal growth here. I cant imagine being the moderator of this site. She really does a great job of making sure everyone keeps the peace…
Im glad you are here.
Sometimes we dont all agree – that would be really eerie
Sometimes we agree to disagree – that can be wise
Sometimes we miscommunicate, misread, misinterpret – that can be challenging
But we always get back on track, reminded to be respectful in our posts, something that even when we think we are – we might end up unknowingly offend someone –
I agree with your statement about whats not productive here at LF.
Your input is valuable here. xoxo
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learnthelesson says:
Oxy -
I hear ya. Sometimes it gets really lonely. If it ever gets too overwhelming, and I already know youre going to shoot this down, but you know me, the say it anyway girl – but…
what about volunteering at the hospital nursery — just looking in the newborn window at the hospital gets me all warm and fuzzy! Sometimes they need volunteers to just swaddle hold and rock them to sleep!
I know this doesnt make up for us being in a big lonely bed – but it might just do the trick if we feel too overwhelmed and lonely. I guess it doesnt have to be limited to hospital nursery…maybe a nursing home or I know…I saw a show on TV where they did a study about how people would react to being asked if they want a hug! So they made these big signs (like lemonade sale) and it said (Free hugs here) and (Do you need a hug today?) you would be surprised how many people said YES!! I thought for sure people would walk the other way and think they were crazy – Im sure the TV cameras helped and I do think she was the model type
— but hey… nothing wrong with taking Hairy out for a spin toting a sign (Have you gotten your hug today/free hugs here) ! That might make you look forward to diving into your bed all alone by the end of that day!! 
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JaneSmith says:
Thank you, LTL
That was a beautiful post. I commend you for being so darn wise and supportive. See? Proof positive why I love this website and all the folks.
And really…have you ever offended anyone on LF? It’s unpossible!!…haha.
xxooxx backatcha
ps…how’s your little boy? I think about you and your family and hope all is well.
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learnthelesson says:
Jane -
If I have – I never intended to. I dont always think things through or think how it might affect someone else — times like these — remind me to always try to keep that in mind.
We have finally chosen the right insulin pump for my little guy. After going back and forth with when the right time to transition would be -he decided on June ( end of school) to have the summer to adjust to it. No more fainting (thank goodness) and we raised $6,000 for JDRF’s Walk For A Cure! We are always hopeful and always learning more ways to make his life less stressful! Thanks for asking!
Hope all is well with you too!
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CAmom says:
.
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OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
Oh, I’m not “hug deprived,” I do get lots of hugs, it is just that big empty bed that seems so “alone.” I think that was what I missed the most that made me vulnerable to the P XBF, just someone “warm”—well, we know how that turned out, don’t we???!!!!LOL
Glad your little boy is doing better with the diabetes, too. I’m sure that is a big worry off your plate.
Janie, sweetie! You are and have been the biggest CHEERLEADER here on LF. I miss you when you don’t post for a while! ((((hugs)))))
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learnthelesson says:
Oxy -
Thank you for mentioning the TV show about the autistic woman Temple Grandlin. The article I attached here about the program actually lists the wrong time. It came on at 8pm to 10pm – - I didnt realize it until 9:10ish…so I only caught the tail end of it.
What an inspirational moving touching story. I want to watch it again in its entirety. Claire Danes was outstanding in her representation of Temple.
What will stand out for me are Temples words….
“I dont want all my thoughts to die with me. I want my life to have had meaning while Im here”
What an AMAZING human being. What a story. What a talent and a gift to this world to be able to see the world through her eyes..
Thank you for mentioning it Oxy. -LTL
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one_step_at_a_time says:
CAmom: Querida,
Si, si somos hermanas de sangre y hueso, lodo y polvo…
Esto es una imagen linda y fuerte.
I would not use the word evil. I did not let that word, so associated with religion, and consequently so disassociated from my life, cross my lips. But now, it has and it will never be suppressed again.
And you ideas speak loudly to me: ‘I still find evil horrible, horrifying, despicable, but I’ve accepted the reality of evil in the same sense I accept the reality of goodness and beauty. …That duality, as simplistic as it is, light and dark, day and night, helps me understand life and what people are capable of doing to one another, and for one another.’
And this tells me, I have gained in my experience with the spath – there is a richness in the duality, and without evil the richness would not exist. The light would not shine so brightly. My gratitude for the small beauties of life, is all the more poignant for having endured evil. I know life is not long – and we may not get much in the way of love and joy, peace and ease….but there are things like dancing and the sun, the wind and kindness. y la lingua española.
Besitos y abrazos fuerte,
One step
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CAmom says:
One Step,
Yes, totally relate to not wanting to use the word evil.
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autisticsouls says:
CAmom, where in california are you and will you be willing to travel? i know some contacts that can help you have your daughter reasssessed and properly diagnosed and then can be used for SSI and other community services, like autism coaches, and Personal care assistants and companions and so on, that can help both her and you.
we have a number of numerous adults who have even ended up homeless with schizophrenic, or mentally retarded labels that are receiving real help for the first time for their true issues.
my wife herself was labeled as mentally retarded until the age of 12 because of the lack of awareness in those years. she tested from below 70 to about over 120 in another type of testing. depending upon the tests she took she was somewhere between 85 to 120. which indicated she was not retarded but had some very strange issues back then. it took an out of town specialist to recognize autism and then she was diagnosed.
she needs full time care and has her routines where she does derail easily. She can not work. She is unable to be fully independant.
Mental retardation isn’t always part of autism although it nearly always looks like it. There is a social and emotional ‘retardation’ though. i am 35 but i am told that i am emotionally and socially 16, 17. My wife can be somewhere around 10 or 12 but sometimes she is nearly like a 135 year old. I had no speech until age 4 and my wife until age 9. So we emerged as children sort of like babies or toddlers. An autistic’s social and emotional development is a off, enough to impact our intellectual capacities at times, or just a little and sometimes not at all. so it is mot uncommon for an autistic child to manage some complex things but simpler, more basic issues becomes a huge struggle.
Sometimes they test(autistics) too high to recieve that (mental retarded) label and lose or not receive vital services. That is why having a diagnosis was so important. My wife was removed as a child from her friends who all had down syndrome or some other form of mental retardation because she tested high enough not to be within the MR range, higher than any of them and 90 is considered slow but not retarded. The problem was over half of them were more functional than she was. and then it wasn’t known what to do with her.
my email is autisticsouls@gmail.com and you can email me off list and i’ll conpile some contacts in your area to assist you and your daughter as to where you need to go.
Mike
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autisticsouls says:
Nicolaid,
I’m glad you are back. The work situation was an issue that seems to have been there before me and every new teacher adjusts to or rail against after some time. mostly we spend time with our children for some years before we see what is happening. There are people fighting it and just now all school districts are under federal investigation.
they were just too bold and took so many arrogant unneccassry risks. it’s absolutely stunning. they had everything and in taking more impulsive bold risks they are now met with so many parents and teachers to just finally take a stand against them. The recent Steve Becker article hit us home on this one.
I am unfamiliar with Marie France Hirigoyen but just purchased her book on Amazon. Thank you.
It took some time when we recognized what we were dealing with.
I can shut off my emotions or put them somewhere else as they get too overwhelming at times. I like things orderly and my emotions fill me with shame at times as they are not so easy to control or understand or organize. they can contaminate my thinking. I love order and hate messiness. emotions are so disorderly and chaotic at times, and messy. So I feel such shame when my emotions get the best of me. So I restrain them whenever I can. Here not so much though. In this arena everyone is getting in touch with their emotions so it’s fitting that i allow myself ‘to feel’ here as well. if i shut that part of me off i would appear to be some unfeeling robotic monster. everyone is opening themselves up here so i allow that part of me to have full access. i just have to tap on the gas little by little because i blew up here recently and i am so embarrassed and ashamed of myself to have had such an emotional outburst.
My interest in psychopathy is in line to my other interests. my main interest is to work towards more harmonious society. A more harmonious society means a more moral and ethical one. To get there education and understanding of human natures is crucial.
Interest in different personality types is due to recognizing all their different gifts to humanity as well as figuring out how to stabilize and stregthen their weaknesses. All personality types have stregths and weknesses and their own special gifts to share with the world.
The psychopath is the only one that seems void of anything good and true or to hold any positive elements that can ultimately serve society and humanity. Any contributions they make seem only superficial or short term. It is also the one personality that seems to keep our social evolution from getting to a better place. Stunting us all and holding us all back. All personality types may clash at times, but still can strive for a common goal and have good things to contribute to one another, all can be very complementry if nurtured and supported enough. But the psychpath, holds us all back, keeps us all prisoners. affects our ability to trust, keeps us defensive and wary, affects every area of society in a negative hold. It is a disease and cancer upon us all.
They also procreate often, so early intervention of all children is crucial to get to at risk children and break the cycle and socialize them properly in nurturing and love so that they reach their full potential and not fall into that abyss.
So all my interests correlate are pretty involved with one another.
I”m off to take my girls out to the beach, I will be back later.
May eveyone have a wonderful blessed day.
Mike
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JaneSmith says:
Oxy Pooh,
Hello there, lovely woman. I’ve been reading all that you write and of course, always deeply caring with all that transpires in your life, whether negative or positive.
Although I wish your days and nights to be calm, tranquil, full of love and peace rather than filled with sadness and turmoil.
I wish that for all the folks on LF. But, you know, we’re human, REAL humans: we have good days and bad days. We have days where the joy flows through every cell of our bodies and then there are days when the tears run like rain. Our hearts and minds are sometimes light and bouyant and at other times heavy and burdened.
Not to be flippant, but it is life. Life in all it’s hazards, trials and tribulations, pain and sorrow and life in all it’s joys, triumphs, victories, wonders, and simple pleasures.
I think you and I will both agree that life is good. It IS good. And folks in general are good people. You know, I’m a strange cat. I’m an introvert who thrives, flourishes in extended periods of solitude but when I’m out and about, mingling with the peeps, I’m a flittering social butterfly, smiling and chatting and being goofy with anyone and everyone who will allow me. It’s fun and also proof that there are many good, decent people inhabiting this planet along side me.
I think you’re fully aware of how I feel and think of you. Truly, this is who you are: super strong, fiercely independent, resourceful as all get out, determined, loyal, immensely loving and caring, a sterling example of womanhood in all aspects, facets.
You are that person. That rare human being with loads of stamina and vibrancy, a huge capacity for warmth, compassion and love.
Please don’t forget who you are. Well now, I guess you can’t as I am now reminding you, right here on LF, as I write my little “love letter” to you, sweetness.
xxooxx
PS…I’m always sending you good vibrations whether I’m commenting on LF or not.
The force is strong in you, fellow Jedi Knight!!
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breckgirl says:
Hi all – I did not read every post – as this thread is very long and I do not have time to now – but will come back to it…
What I did do was skim it as when I read about the proposed law in France it gave me shivers. You see I believe that that law will in fact be used more by S/N/P’s to further torture their victims rather than as protection. I think Nicolaid is correct. This is not the best use of legal services. To me – the thing I most desire to do – is to create a program like DARE or MADD to bring into schools and teach 10/11/12/13/14 year olds about this. They already know kids in their classes like this. They see it around them but have no tools – no way to know what to do. I believe shunning the S/N/P’s is the best course of action. Safest for the rest of us and most devastating to them as they hate not having an audience – at least the S and N’s – the P’s probably don’t care.
To me the victims – often suffering Stockholm Syndrome – may behave in ways that destroy their credibility – I say this as someone who experienced that very thing.
In hindsight I would say that I was vulnerable (immediately post divorce relationship was when I came together with my ex – an S/N)… and he did indeed groom me – he used to joke about training me – now I know it was not a joke – he used to say Nicole Brown Simpson deserved what she got – I now know he was meant it and was not saying it for shock value. He would say this openly to me and others and we all would razz him. He insisted – and it all seemed so outlandish I could not mentally grasp that anyone would believe such things and so I rationalized his behavior to my own detriment.
I believe – as my sister had married an S and he is creating an ongoing hell for her and damaging his two sons – one since childhood I can see will follow in his fathers footsteps and I do not allow my daughters to be with him alone. My sister’s ex has dragged her into court repeatedly – he has money she does not. He is trying to destroy her financially and emotionally. A law like that he would turn and use to try and paint her as the abuser. The pressure of psychological abuse can cause the abused to act in abusive ways as well – in trying to fight back and while stressed the abused is not thinking of how to collect evidence or protect oneself – they simply want to survive – BUT the abuser is all along collecting evidence that could paint the abused very badly in a court case. I think this is a dangerous law.
I am not a trained anything by the way – in terms of psychology – but I have a lot of personal experience and have spent several years coming to terms with and understanding disordered personalities. These are just my thoughts on reading of the proposed law.
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witsend says:
Autisticsouls,
Mike, thank you for your heartwarming response to me. I believe that your mission in life is a very important one.
Working with children at a young age is the way to go. Awareness is the answer. You are doing so much for your child. If only the rest of the world could grasp this. The world is very slowly trying to learn about autism. But to little to late…
I wish the world would begin to learn about sociopathic disorders. But i really don’t see that happeneing. Even in small doses. I don’t even think the experts can agree on sociopathic tendancys, let alone the mainstreem world.
In my case my son had a tramatic experience early in his childhood. His father suicided, and my small son was in the house with him alone until I returned home from work.
And so although I knew that he might be “at risk” for something, enduring what he endured, I wasn’t aware of what the REAL risk was. I knew nothing about personality disorders, even though I strongly suspect his father was one,(now) I didn’t have enough knowledge at the time to put my finger on it. My son initially went to see a “specialist” but he wasn’t even 4 yrs old at the time. So the specialist gave his opinion, that my son didn’t “see” it (suicide) “happen” and that was the end of that. The specialist NEVER mentioned to me anything about my sons development possibly being “arrested” or anything else to alarm me. I was already alarmed from my own perspective of what I thought. However I was still nieve to the possibilities that lay ahead.
I thought that love would be enough. I thought that if I raised him to the best of my ability, certainly I would see the EARLY signs if something were wrong, if I was paying attention. Everything seemed fine with him until puberty. And then it was like waking up in a nightmare. Because overnight he was not the same child. It was truly a frightening experience, early on. And I looked for intervention, but there was none. I really thought that he was still young enough to get help. And I needed help from the medical profession. But it isn’t out there. The question that I was asked over and over again : “Has he broken the law?”
You are right Mike, this is not something anyone can deal with alone. Even if a parent does recognize that there is a problem with their child and they are showing the signs….Of a sociopathic disorder. No one wants to believe you. It would take a team to intervine. I couldn’t even find a good therapist for him. He went to counseling and managed to lie to the counselor.
Being that my son might have both the genetic factor and also a tramatic experience young in his life, I will never know which component had more to do with the outcome. I am not sure that knowing would even be helpful at this point. But I certainly do wish that I had an awareness of personality disorders and that my child was at risk. Because when I thought I was raising an “at risk” child after the tramatic event he suffered, I thought the “risk” was something totally different than what it was.
I didn’t educate myself to any of this until I came face to face with something that I couldn’t define w/o further knowledge.
I am glad that your wife found Lf Mike, and glad that you are here.
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ErinBrock says:
Breckgirl:
“To me the victims – often suffering Stockholm Syndrome – may behave in ways that destroy their credibility – I say this as someone who experienced that very thing. ”
This is when ‘they’ capitalize on “She’s crazy’ ……look at her!
And unfortunatley…..THAT behavior is all others see!
We are justified in ‘cracking’,given what we have endured…..
BUT….it is VITAL….the ‘cracks’ DO NOT show in public!!!
I cracked once……in front of my mother…..
I was just released from my life threatening gig and hospitalization, kids came home that night….S showed back up….I was very very sick….and on blood thinners and heart meds…etc….
The S slammed our son up against the wall and hit him….I was so pissed, frusterated ….the police were called by the kids….there was NOTHING i could do to protect them at that moment….the S capitalized on this moment….and realed in my mother…sitting in the living room gossiping very loudley about this child….after the policeleft.
From my bedroom, after stewing for hours about how he had abused teh kids and I couldn’t do anything…..I threw all my pills at the wall….like 10 bottles….pills went flying everywhere….I got the strength to get out of bed and crawl to the door and his shoes were by the door…..I opened the door and told them both to shut the fuc up and they looked at me as if I was a martian…..so I started hucking the shoes at him from about 30 feet away…..yelling I hate you, your doing exactly what we discussed you wouldn’t do…..and your talking shit about the kids in earshot of them with their grandmother…. I certainly looked likethe crazy woman….and at that moment….he sucked my mother right in with….she’s mentally ill…..he slept downstairs in the room next to my mothers and removed all the knives out of the kitchen telling my mother he was afraid I would kill him in the night!
NOW…..how’d he turn that situation around an onto me….HE was the abusive one that night….and I flipped out (rightfully so) and now HE is the one scared…..mother bought right into it….
He provoked….I played right into it!
Things would have been so different if I had of found the control that night….in front of my mother….but he played that card for the next 2 years….saying Ido that all the time….NOT!!! I’ve never lost it like that….ever….but this is what they want….and to do it in front of others….he was able to sever my relationship and discount me to my mother…. and exploit me from there…I was the ‘unstable’ one….
SO…..at ALL costs…..we must remain INCONTROL!!!!!!!
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JaneSmith says:
Yo, Oxy bodacious!
Since you said up yonder how good a cheerleader I am, I have a great cheer of my own to share with you—
“Rah-rah-ree, kick em in the knee!!
Rah-rah-ruts…kick em in the other knee!!”
teehee
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Nicolaid, thank you for those links. The bullying site lead me to some other links and I’ve just ordered two books by Robert W. Fuller on abuse of rank and dignity for all.
Mike, this conversation is making it more and more clear why workplace issues belong here. Thanks for talking about what you’re going through.
Kathy
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Nicolaid says:
@ JaneSmith
.
It’s ok, you don’t have to apologize. I must admit I made an undiplomatic entrance in the first place
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learnthelesson says:
Autisicsouls/Mike
I cannot help but copy/paste and repost your comments. This is where I see no difference between as you say “you” and “us” — I share these same sentiments and feelings. I just could never put it together so straight and to the point. Other than saying things like “we need to recognize the postive and negative and strengths and weaknesses in different personalities and learn from all of them” everyone has something to offer in this world.
Anyway because your words really resonated with me I just have to post them again.
Autisticsouls/Mike wrote :
my main interest is to work towards more harmonious society. A more harmonious society means a more moral and ethical one. To get there education and understanding of human natures is crucial.
Interest in different personality types is due to recognizing all their different gifts to humanity as well as figuring out how to stabilize and stregthen their weaknesses. All personality types have stregths and weknesses and their own special gifts to share with the world.
The psychopath is the only one that seems void of anything good and true or to hold any positive elements that can ultimately serve society and humanity. Any contributions they make seem only superficial or short term. It is also the one personality that seems to keep our social evolution from getting to a better place. Stunting us all and holding us all back. All personality types may clash at times, but still can strive for a common goal and have good things to contribute to one another, all can be very complementry if nurtured and supported enough. But the psychpath, holds us all back, keeps us all prisoners. affects our ability to trust, keeps us defensive and wary, affects every area of society in a negative hold. It is a disease and cancer upon us all.
JUST AN EXCELLENT EXCELLENT POST HERE AT LF IN MY OPINION. Thank you.
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JaneSmith says:
Nicolaid,
Yes, I most certainly did need to apologize to you even if it came about by the reproachful email from Donna.
I went overboard, angry in protective mode, disregarding your feelings and I was wrong.
Partaking of the humble pie is necessary and beneficial for me when I deserve it. Keeps me from putting on airs.
Also, if I’m going to continually announce to being a grown up, a full fledged adult, well…I should accept accountability for any wrong doings, mean words and actions I commit.
I will never reach that special place of true emotional, psychological and spiritual growth and enrichment I am seeking if I behave less than what the Lord wishes for me.
So, I will strive from here on to treat others as I would have them treat me.
Doesn’t mean I’m going to allow the cluster Bs and the garden variety weirdos and freaks to have a go at me. Uh, no. Completely different ball game with entirely different dynamics in that arena. Know what I’m saying?
Anyway, peace and joy and love to you.
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breckgirl says:
OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
Sometimes I will go lie on the couch to sleep- because it doesn’t feel so lonely to sleep alone when you are on a couch as it is not somewhere two people COULD sleep.
Oxy I wish I could give you a hug.
– I have spent so many months on the couch trying to come to terms with sleeping alone. I light a fire in the fireplace at the slightest hint of cold as it soothes me and I go to sleep reading – sometimes fully clothed I wake up in the same position I fell asleep.
I finally forced myself first to sleep with my children and then to move to my own bed. I’m there and it is not always easy.
I have just started to date someone but he lives an airplane ride away – which is better for me so I can take it real slow – as I fear my eagerness for the warm body will cause me to minimize things that should concern me.
Sending you wishes for a wonderful loving warm body to come into your life.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Breckgirl,
That “need” and “desire” we have for a connectedness and a warm body does make us more vulnerable and in “long distance” relationships where you are only able to see the person in a “best light” when you are with them rarely or just talking on the phone can give us a false sense of their trustworthyness. So I suggest that you be VERY slow with this person and get to oknow them in a wide variety of situations, and I also suggest you get a BACK GROUND check on this individuall from a private investigator and follow up on it. It actually is very inexpensive $250 or so and you can get a list of where they have lived for their adult lives, any criminal convictions, etc. a list of their neighbors (you can call these people) and while that may sound “sneaky” it also will give you some idea about the character of this person and can compare their “stories” to what you know is the truth. If you met this person on-line, be doubly careful.
I hate to sound like a paranoid nut case, but I have found that not everyone presents the “real” them, and I know of quite a few cases (personally) of people who married con-people off the net. Better, I think to be cautious than “caught” again. I didn’t even meet my X-BF-P on the net,, but through an special interest group and had casually known him for 10 years before we started dating. But that did help me eventually get on to his tricks before I married him since some of the women in the group had gone with him when he was still married and I found out about that. By that time, though, I was head over heels for him and it ripped my needy little heart out.
I would love to have a man to snuggle with at night, but I would rather sleep with the dog than another psychopath. NO JOKE! At least I KNOW the dog loves me! LOL
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