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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 15 – Comfort and Joy

Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 12:09pm • My Weblog

Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, the turn of the year, the winter solstice and all the holidays of the “dark” time of the year are celebrations of the miracle of renewal. The harvest and colorful leaf fall of autumn is over, and the seasons are turning again to the beginning of the annual cycle of life. Our gifts, all our gatherings, the lights and candles are all expressions of joy in our shared warmth, and our faith and hope in our survival through the cold months to the blooming of spring again.

This morning, reading in bed (Richard Powers’ Prisoners Dilemma), I found this line: “Inside each of us is a script of the greater epic writ little, an atlas of politics so abundant it threats to fill us full to breaking.”

It made me want to write you about the “politics” of getting over a relationship with a sociopath. Sociopaths challenge our faith and hope. Our faith in ourselves, and the goodness of the world. And our hope that there are happy endings for us, or that anything we do will be enough to prevail over the forces of evil or the random destruction that appears in any life. In some ways, this is the biggest challenge of healing – to recover our easy belief that we are precious in the world and that what we need is here for us. Somewhere in our hearts, we remember feeling that way. But we are struggling with a terrible lesson that seems to prove otherwise.

As I write this today, I am looking out the windows behind my desk at a grey sky. Sleet is coming and dangerous roads. The snow is frozen hard on the ground, and dozens of finches, cardinals and jays are at the feeders. At dawn, deer came to nibble on the ears of corn my son scattered at the edge of the woods. My furnace died earlier this week, on a day where the temperature never climbed above 25, and it was 12 hours before the repairmen figured out how to get it going again. Now, with the heat turned up, and me wrapped in sweaters and fleece and woolen socks, my fingers and toes are chilled by the cold that falls through the storm windows.

Elsewhere in the house, my years-old Christmas cactus is blooming beside a wildly-sprigging rosemary bush that looks vaguely like a Christmas tree. Wrinkled but still sweet apples, picked months ago from a local orchard, wait to be peeled and mixed with mincemeat for a pie. A leg of lamb is in the refrigerator for Christmas dinner with a man who was an untrustworthy lover, but a loyal and delightful friend. After dinner, we will go to the movies with my son to see Robert Downey Jr. in Sherlock Holmes.

All of it stories of risk and survival, disaster and renewal, the fine edge we walk and the mysterious providence that brings us to each new day. Even the most blessed life encounters harsh weather, and sometimes we find ourselves in trouble that taxes us beyond our conventional wisdom. When our rules don’t work, and our usual insurance policies don’t suffice, we are challenged. And often, we don’t know what it means.

Does it mean that somehow we have fallen from grace, that our luck has changed and we are no longer loved by the world? Does it mean that we are broken in some fundamental way, and no longer dare to be comfortable with ourselves? Does it mean that the world is darker than we once imagined, and that we must struggle harder for less?

This is what a great philosopher called the “dark night of the soul.” In this midst of this challenge, there is something truly great happening. A kind of personal miracle that – depending on how we think about things – occurs in our intellect, emotions or spirit. When faced by something we do not understand and cannot manage with our usual tools, we are learning and growing. Like the germs of life stirring in the seeds buried in the cold earth, we are experiencing the birth of something new in ourselves.

Because the challenge is threatening, because it makes us question ourselves and what we know, the first part of the learning seems like recognition of evil in the world. Sociopaths seem to be dark messengers, informing us that our love, goodness and hope cannot triumph over their selfishness, greed and senseless destruction. But in time, we come to realize that this lesson is not really about evil at all, but despair.

This is about a war – profound and eternal – of belief. Are we, as sociopaths believe, essentially alone in an uncaring and untrustworthy world, forced by circumstance and entitled by the survival instinct to take whatever we can grab for ourselves? Or is there something about us that is blessed by connection to something larger – the love we share with other people, our dependence on the combined strength of our communities, our instinct that an infinite wisdom and strength exists beyond our imagining, larger than us, but also part of us? And that we are meant, by some birthright that we can hardly explain but that is clearly part of our deep character, to find lasting peace, understanding and gratitude.

What we ultimately learn from an intimate encounter with a sociopath is that this battle is not in the world, but in ourselves. The sociopath triggers our fears, our insecurities, our willingness to give up what we value for the illusion that the ultimate source of love or safety is outside of us. In their betrayals, in the brutal disappointments they return for our commitment to the gorgeous illusions they cast to draw us in, we are thrown back on ourselves. They prove to us, in a way that is a perfect mirror of however much we were willing to give them to make this illusion real, that the first source of our love, safety and greatest wisdom is inside of us. That, however important shared love and community may be, the foundation of everything good in our lives is inside us.

It is about what we believe. At base, under all the little rules we’ve picked up from parents and teachers, under all the little restrictions we’ve placed on ourselves as a result of old traumas, under all the lingering resentments or fears we’ve never resolved, is what we believe about ourselves and this life. It is what, under it all, we know to be the truth and the meaning of our stories.

Our lives, like the life of every other living thing, are about survival and growth and learning. Our lives are about understanding more as we age, an evolving wisdom that sometimes grows out of joy and triumph and sometimes out of pain and loss. Our lives are about trying, not waiting around for something to happen, but also believing that trying is not just us working at what we see. Trying also magically attracts new resources to us. Everyone here on LoveFraud knows how trying to get better brought us here, and here we found resources that simply zoomed toward us, challenging us in good ways to wake up to new ideas and use them. That is how the world works.

Our lives are also about seasons. Not just the season of age, but the seasons of mastery. We have little challenges to learn on a daily basis, and we have huge challenges that we inherited, and that are so much part of the fabric of our family’s history or the state of the entire world that a lifetime may not be enough to understand it all or master its opportunities. We learn the immediate things – how to change a diaper, work the e-mail, get along with a boss, drive in the snow. But our lifetimes are also about those immense inherited questions, and part of the meaning of our life is how much we do learn and how our learning affects the great whole.

Nothing, not one breath or molecule of these recoveries from grief and loss, is wasted. We are part of a great turning of seasons. What we do here is important. We are important. The world and the great spirit that gives it life force have given us a gift, an opportunity to learn something amazing. About ourselves. About the meaning of love and belonging, as well as solitary courage. About how to be whole in the face of adversity. About the great cycle of renewal in ourselves, and how truly dependable is the fact that we are meant to learn, grow, thrive, bloom again, and face new challenges as we feel strong enough for a thrilling new learning experience.

The earth is turning toward sunnier days. Seasons when we take the warmth and light for granted. So are we.

As Oxy likes to remind us, what doesn’t kill us makes us stronger. Not just to endure. But to recover joy, confidence and belief that every bit of this is a gift, sent to us to help us clear our internal decks, get rid of fear and grief and anger, and open our minds to the bright spirit of faith and hope, peace and joy, understanding and gratitude that is our birthright, that lives in the center of our beings.

Namaste. The light in me salutes the light in you.

Kathy

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written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •

199 Comments to “After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 15 – Comfort and Joy”

Kathleen Hawk says:

A Christmas card from me to you, with love and gratitude. And hope that it’s not too serious on a day when lightening up is a good idea.

On to the apple-peeling…
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 1:22pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Kathy,

Thanks for your Christmas card! I hope your leg of lamb and mincemeat pie turn out wonderful for you!

Celebrating our joy, our peace, and living FREE is not only appropriate on holidays and special events, but a gift we can give ourselves EVERY day as a blessing.

This time of year we tend to get “sentimental” about old memories of holidays past, and sometimes I think the media make us think that somehow our quiet celebrations don’t meaure up to the “Great Holidays” we see on commercials to temp us to buy things we don’t need with money we don’t have to make our family and ourselves “happy” with the purchase.

In reality, it isn’t what we buy for ourselves or others, or what kind of feast we have that makes us “happy” but a sense that we are complete within oursleves. Whole within ourselves. That is what gives us joy and peace and contentment.

The Bible says (paraphrased) that a CRUST OF BREAD eaten in peace is worth more than a FEAST eaten with discontent and discord. That is so true. Sometimes we have to remind ourselves what is truly worthwhile, what is truly good, and realize that no “bought” gift can give us peace, we can only give that to ourselves out of a self caring and self loving heart!

Thank you for all your contributions to the wonderful family here at LF and for sharing your heart and thoughts with the rest of us. Happy holidays and a great P-FREE new year to you and yours! (((hugs))) and my prayers for us all.
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 1:32pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Thank you, Oxy, and the same back to you. In the few years we’ve known each other, we’ve both come a long way.

I hope this is the most joyous and peaceful year you’ve ever known, and if you want it, the beginning of new adventures for you.

Kathy
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 2:32pm
OxDrover says:

While I have UN-enjoyed the “white christmas” we got frm Mother nature along with floods and high winds, the day itself (inside a comfy warm home looking outside, not being outside LOL) It has been a wonderful, peaceful and comforting day spent in peaceful, mundane and relaxing things, visiting with good friends on the telephone and by e-mail as far away as a dear friend in singapore, and of course the good friends here at LF who are scattered all over both hemispheres and from east to west!

I must admit I would like to visit Gem in her sun-dreanched land of Oz for a few days! LOL

Happy holidays to everyone, no matter how you celebrate!
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 5:46pm
ErinBrock says:

Kathleen:
Thank you for your beautiful way of writing.
Your light has guided me more than you know!!!
Merry Christmas to you.
XXOO
EB
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 6:30pm
Hecates path says:

Thank you, Kathy, for this beutiful Christmas card. And thank you for being a light amidst the darkness…and guiding so many towards the light for a brighter tomorrow.

Happy Holiday wishes to each and every one here at LF and thank you for the gifts of friendship, kindness, support and wisdom that have been given so generously through the year.

HP
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Friday, 25 December 2009 @ 8:05pm
teacher123 says:

Yes thank you for the beautiful well written Christmas card. I would like to wish everyone reading happy holidays and love and all that stuff. My Christmas wish is that all of you can find your way back to the place you were before you were wounded, or like Kathy points to a better place afterwards filled with the knowledge that you are all the better now for withstanding your personal “dark night of the soul”. Prayer does help as I can attest that God has brought me through more troubles enough to make Samson look like an easy case. And it continues… I always wondered reading about Samson- man that guy never learns, but isn’t that what being human is all about? And that is why we needed the rest of the story, Jesus. And I guess reading Bible stories might help put in perspective what some others went through- Jonah couldn’t email from the belly of the whale… I also have been reading and watching the story of Ernest Shackleton- not in the Bible who along with his crew made it through almost 3 years in the Antarctic facing certain disaster time and time again. We had one day of snow and ice here, and I thought the end was approaching. Sorry so long.
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 12:02am
henry says:

Kathy – Thank you. That was beautiful.
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 1:19am
libelle says:

Dear Kathy, thank you so much for the Christmas card and the kindness and your wisdom you very generously share with all of us. I need in times of bad weather and turmoil a lighthouse that horns through the fog, to keep me away from danger and helps me to the right direction, to not despair and to show me the way through it I have to find for myself. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your posts which mean so much to me.

To all the LF-readers I wish merry Christmas and a happy new year!
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 3:13am
geminigirl says:

Hi, everyone!
This is Gem calling you, from “Down under”, the beautiful land of Oz. It has been SO hot,{over 38 deg.C,} and over 90 % humidity, but yesterday, Xmas day, it rained,and it was a benison and a blessing.Raining today as well,{Boxing day.} Our wonderful new “kids” from Iran arrived, we had a lovely lunch, all prepared by me. First, we had seafood starters, scallops in a cream and mushroom sauce, with tarragon. Delicious! Then breast of turkey, already stuffed with cranberry sage and onion. Much more suitable than awhole bird that wed still be eating in a weeks time. With it, roast potatoes, red cabbage cooked with oranges, cinnamon ,clove, nutmeg and butter. It was YUM!Plusa small ham with orange and cranberry glaze.
Then individual mini pavlovas,[store bought but v. nice, with fresh berries, { strawberies and blueberries,} and cream.Then good coffee. Wish I could have invited all you guys! You were all with me in thought. We had such a fun day, Abbas took lots of pics,-I wish I could send some to you!
They stayed overnight, as they have a long way to drive home to their tiny rented flat. Its quite noisy where they live, so they really appreciated having a good rest and good sleep!
We watched 3 fun DVDs, _”Charlottes Web,” do any of you know it? My daughter loved the book by TE White when she was a litle non spath girl. Also watched “Babe, about a pig who wanted to be “sheep pig,” and not end up as bacon, and “Ratatouille”, a new one, {very funny,} about a rat with a passion to be a great french chef.They left today , loaded down with frozen dinners, presents, goodwill, they were so happy and WE were so happy to have them stay over.
Here is Royas card to me,
On the envelope it said,
Merry Christmas to best Mum and dad in allover the world!
Roya and Abbas,X
Inside this is what Roya wrote,
” May the good times and treasures of the present become the golden memories of tomorrow. Wish you lots of love, joy, and happiness.
May this Christmas be so special that you never ever feel lonely again, and be surrounded by loved ones throughout!
“Merry Xmas,
From your Children
Roya and Abbas. We love you very much. 25th Dec.,2009.
My heart is full. My daughters didnt ring, neither did my Grandkids, but it didnt matter. My cup truly runneth over!
Hope you all either enjoyed or survived xmas, anda very happy, and spath free new year to all my wonderfil LF friends!
Kathy, Oxy, Eb,and all of you you are all AWESOME. We are all getting there. Love, {{HUGS}}!! Gem.XXX
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 5:51am
one_step_at_a_time says:

hi Gem
I was thinking about pavlova just the other day. I used to cook professionally; I loved making pavlova. They are simple, beautiful, impressive and yummy. I really miss cooking pro. Can’t do it anymore due to injuring my hands.

Sounds like a lovely loving day. My gram has new ‘grandkids’ too – two young folk from Africa who were conducting some surveys on aging that she participated in. They stuck with her all the time they were in college in her city. It was a very rewarding relationship all the way around.

You just never know where you will find real love and affection.

all best,
one step
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 10:10am
style1 says:

I feel a bit crazy today…lots of thinking about relationships..
In astrology.. both mars and mercury are retrograding… and that means.. lots of reflection back.. and whether you have an interest in all this .. I think that there is something to it…so I am going into it to clean stuff out of my memory in understanding…and recognition..

So if you find yourself going over things.. this might be why..
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 11:55am
witsend says:

Geminigirl,
Hi girlfriend…I am so happy to hear that your holiday was so happy! You deserve that.
I love that movie, Babe with the pig. I actually miss watching those kind of movies. Me and my son used to watch them all the time when he was younger. One of my all time favorites is Lion King. About the circle of life.
Your dinner sounded delsh…..
Tell me what is boxing day?

Best wishes to you in the new year…XXXX
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 3:28pm
geminigirl says:

Thanks Witty! I hope that your Xmas was happy, under the circumstances you are in right now. All the best to you too, for the New year! May you havea spath -free one!
Boxing day is an old english custom, it was traditionally the only day of the year when the maidservants got to leave the stately homes they worked such long hours in as maids. They went home to their Mothers and their Mums sent them back with boxes of food, new clothes, etc. Also theLord and Lady of the manor gave the servants nice gifts then, and nice food.I didnt realise Boxing day isnt celebrated in the U.S.!
Have you seen the movie “Ratatouille” about a rat who longs to bea great french chef? Roya brought it over, its so funny!
I love “Charlotte Web”too. About a pig and the spider, Charlotte, who saved the life of Wilbur, the baby pig.
Lots of Love, and you are in my thoughts dear Witty,
Gem.{{HUGS!}}} XXX
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Saturday, 26 December 2009 @ 6:15pm
Stayingsane says:

Kathy

You write in a way that really speaks of my experience. It’s profound. I am stuck somewhere around the middle part where you say:

This is what a great philosopher called the “dark night of the soul.” In this midst of this challenge, there is something truly great happening. A kind of personal miracle that – depending on how we think about things – occurs in our intellect, emotions or spirit. When faced by something we do not understand and cannot manage with our usual tools, we are learning and growing. Like the germs of life stirring in the seeds buried in the cold earth, we are experiencing the birth of something new in ourselves.

Here is where I reside at the moment. Dark night of the soul. In a void. weighing up the light and dark and feeling like the light shines especially bright near the blackest parts.

something continues to change even though I am alone again with my cats after a really beautiful Christmas where I sat with family and trusted my every instinct and kept talking, saying what I felt and thought, bringing up topics and blending in and listening. Hey it was great!

So I downloaded some Itunes and i’m laughing at my choice!!! very out of character for me….Lady Ga Ga’s BAD ROMANCE (she even mentions psycho in it, but you know she is on top of it…what a powerful song) followed by Disco stick, and then Fergie’s London Bridge….ha ha I was dancing off the turkey pounds to the sound of female sexuality and how powerful that is (don’t know why) Ended with Fergie’s big girls don’t cry

it’s the way Hugh Heffner looks really kind of sad surrounded by pink platinum blondes…they are denigrated in one way the way he has reduced them to lap dog status but you can feel the last laugh is on him as these women get rich and powerful exploiting back on him with an edge. These are my thoughts for the New Year….germs of life stirring…yes yes!

Thanks Kathy
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 6:53am
one_step_at_a_time says:

hey staying sane –
might want to add EB’s new anthem, which i listened to last night for the first time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpZm1TstpjQ

I have been fantasizing about doing a ’sock puppet show’ for youtube – thought this would be a good ‘out tro’ song.

and if you look to the right – you’ll see me sitting in the void, too.
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 10:16am
pollyannanomore says:

Just a quick one – thanks Kathleen – that is good inspiration for today:) Another quote that calls to mind is “the darkest hour is just before the dawn” – very true – may this horrible experience be our true awakening to lives of gold .

Love the anthem EB! This has been my f**** you anthem …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McdqerXrwXE

It’s very apt – no more poison killing my emotions – I will not be frozen.

Happy holidays to all my LF friends – I wish I could have hosted you all as well:)
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 5:23pm
victimx says:

This article is so wonderful. I am finding that while Iwas with the S, I wasn’t living in reality. They have a way of distorting it to keep you snowed and in their control. There’s something so cleverly conning about these people. I am finding out that my reality is just wonderful now.
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 6:19pm
Hecates path says:

style1 – against all logic, I ,too, have found “something to it” with regard to astrology. Thanks for sharing… I have misplaced my book and didn’t realize both were retrograde. There is a second full moon at New Year’s as well.
HP
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 9:01pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

well, goodie, just what i need, to be more freakin nuts!
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 9:03pm
Hecates path says:

Staying Sane, ITA — One step’s reccomendation of EB’s theme song always hits the right note when needed!
HP
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 9:03pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Hecates path – ahh, I learned somehting new tonight – ITA!
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Sunday, 27 December 2009 @ 11:59pm
Stayingsane says:

Thanks one step & EB

I enjoyed the song very much. One step it’s heartening to know you are in this void somewhere to the right. Will we ever get out of here?

pollyannanomore
Yay great anthem. I will Not be Broken (limp limp)

Hecates path
what’s ITA? EB’s theme song is great. Kind of bored yawn response to evil! lol
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 8:14am
pollyannanomore says:

lol Stayingsane … I am kind of limping along at the moment – it’s that time of the year for reflection and looking back and forward and I just seem to be filled with sighs and sadness tonight Why are they so damned hard to get over???
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 8:36am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Staying Sane:
A friend sent me a new link for a lily allen song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....I&NR=1

yes, we will get out of the void. and hey polyannanomore – lots of room over here in the void with SS and me. a burden shared is a burden halved. a joy shared is a joy doubled.

ITA – i totally agree – had to google it last night. I love google. Google has helped me keep my sanity in this last while.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 11:00am
Kathleen Hawk says:

Thanks for all the wonderful comments here. I am so grateful for this community.

StayingSane, you wrote: “Here is where I reside at the moment. Dark night of the soul. In a void. weighing up the light and dark and feeling like the light shines especially bright near the blackest parts.”

I love what you said about the light being brightest near the blackest parts. I really thinks these relationships with sociopaths bring a lot of our darker parts up to the surface. Things that drag us down, but are so old in us that we don’t think about them. And then, when we finally get a look at them, we start questioning why we’re living with this toxic, dysfunctional stuff.

In the thread on red flags, Oxy added her own list and one of the items was vengefulness, I think. It brought up a memory about my ex-S. He has a friend who is a wonderful photographer, and one of the pictures he’d taken of my ex showed him standing in front of a brick chimney on the flat roof of an apartment building, a cigar clamped between his teeth, his arms extended with a trumpet in his hands about to smash it into the chimney. The story behind that picture was that he had sublet his place to a musician who hadn’t paid the rent, and in retribution, he was destroying his instrument.

Nice guy, huh? But the more urgent question is why didn’t I see this as the red flag it was? I was horrified by the picture, couldn’t believe he would destroy the man’s means of livelihood, couldn’t believe he would destroy a musical instrument, couldn’t believe he would value this photograph as a portrait of who he was. The whole thing just turned my stomach. But I overlooked it, justifying it to myself by saying this was something about the focus on his own goals and refusal to be diverted that I admired in him. And that I had to give him the latitude to be himself.

There were so many red flags, and yet I was so romantically involved with my own idea that he was more advanced than me in some important way. Later, much later, in getting over it, I realized that idea was less about him than my own despair about being able accomplish anything I really cared about, protect myself, or deal effectively with the world at all. (This was childhood stuff affecting my thinking; the reality of my life at that time was that I was hugely successful in business, respected, surrounded by people who cared about me, and the only thing that created chaos in my life was my belief in my own incompetence.)

As I healed from this relationship, I learned first that he was not a nice person or admirable in any way, except for these traits that attracted me and even they were warped and uglied by his crappy values. And then I learned that he was an avatar of my own old damage. The whole relationship, including my view of him, was shaped by my despair about being able to take care of myself.

All this work, all these developing insights and my ultimately getting through healing of that old damage (which served to deal with him and his meaning in my live) was driven initially by pain I couldn’t turn away from. There was a part of me that knew, even from the beginning, that this couldn’t just be about him. Because even in the beginning, I was saying to myself, “Kathy, what is wrong with you? Are you just too stupid to live?” Especially as my attachment to him seemed unbreakable, even when it was clear that the relationship was destroying everything I cared about and everything I once thought about myself.

The pain, the “dark places,” demanded attention like nothing I’ve ever seen before. It wasn’t like I made a choice to focus on healing. I had no choice, and it was me that was giving me no choice. Whatever skills I had to ignore or bury these dark place faded away, and I just had to pay attention to them.

Thank heavens.

I think this is what the dark night of the soul is about. It is the part of us that wants to be clear, honest, healthy, aware and fully connected to our wise centers finally getting out attention. And not letting us divert ourselves with sex, relationships, obligations, work, shopping, drugs, booze, solitaire, other people’s problems or whatever. Until we realize it’s about us, everything reminds us of the avatar. We can’t date, we can’t look in our closets, we can’t see movies or read books, we can’t have conversations about ourselves, we can’t even look in the mirror without it being about them.

In my case, I finally started to see that he was a mask for my father, who had sexually abused me and traumatized me in other ways right back to my early childhood. But I couldn’t even hold my father’s face on that pain. Because that was a mask too. I ultimately realized that it was something about me. Yes, other people had mistreated and disrespected me as a human being, but the damage belonged to me. And no one could do anything about it, except me. I had to unlearn it, to untangle it and recover who I was really supposed to be.

This, I think, is what we all eventually come to, if we truly want to get well. And not keep living with the various forms of PSTD that come from incomplete processing of trauma.

The most difficult and hardest part of healing is getting through all the layers of self-blame, imagining that we might have done better, anger that things weren’t different, fear that we’ll never be whole or okay, struggling with the idea that we didn’t deserve better, to the simple knowledge that we’re carrying around an unhealed wound. And that we deserve comfort and support, that we can and will heal, and that both we and our lives can be shaped by light and love, if we take our own healing seriously. It’s not just that we’re worth it or deserve this from ourselves. It’s also the difference of what our lives become, the type of influence we become and the legacy we leave behind. Healing ourselves is a gift we give to the world, as well as ourselves.

I apologize for the long post, but the net of it all is that the dark night of the soul is just early learning. It may be driven by pain, but the pain is leading you toward truth. You sound like you’re living with it well, not afraid of it. And that’s great. Fear of our feeling is probably the most progress-retarding element in our healing. I hope your pain develops a clear voice, and leads you to its source. So you can get on to rebuilding soon.

Namaste.

Kathy
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 12:21pm
Hecates path says:

Kathy, no apologies! i read every word and hungered for more… really. At the risk of sounding repetitious, your words are amazing and thoughtprovoking. I continue to appreciate the “theoretical” and real world wisdom you so willingly share here. At times, I get frustrated with my progress, triggers, residual pain… and today your words served as a much needed reminder that while I have miles to go I have indeed come far in this journey, in this processing, and in my acknowledgement of the darkness in order to find the light. My words are nowhere near as clear and eloquent as yours but hopefully this makes sense… and hopefully my appreciation for you, your experience and wisdom is also evident. I needed this today and an so glad that I am off work and able to partake in some LF therapy.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 1:24pm
Hecates path says:

Kathy’s words and insight reminded me of this quote:

“Though my soul may set in darkness,
It will rise in perfect light,
I have loved the stars too fondly
To be fearful of the night.”
- Sarah Williams
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 1:25pm
ErinBrock says:

I’m starting to put together more pieces……
About my ‘parents’…..
Looking back over the past 10 years or so…..I see that I have been asked if there is something I need or want.
When I respond…..I get the opposite…..
The S did this too…..ALL THE TIME.
I guess because I chose to build a ‘life’ with this fraud, he had more ’stock’ in me than my parents.
If he knew my birthday was important for me…..he’d ignore it…..or bring something trinkety a few days later…..saying he got it on sale…..with some sort of pride that he was ‘doing me a favor’….
Well…..it’s clear it’s the same as with the parents…..
About 6 years ago…..they were visiting and I was in the recliner with the afgan she had knitted years earlier…..it had a big hole in it and she asked why…..I told her because I like it to cover my feet and it has stretched over time and holes developed……she said it was awful I had such a holey blanket and she would knit me what I wanted…..she asked wat color I would like and I told her…..
I said, well if you do, here’s what I’d like…..I’d like it to cover my feet and a hole in the center, like a poncho so it’s long enougn to cover all of me…..my feet, arms, back and all….
We talked about it for some time and she fully understood what I was seeking…..
Fast forward, six years……she calls last week to tell me I should be getting a box in the mail, it was a long time coming and I would know what it was…..I figured…..the poncho afgan thing…… She also made comments abuot not having heat upstairs and this would keep me warm….blah, blah….

So…..at the risk of sounding like an ungrateful bitch……here goes…..
Christmas am….I opened the box…..
It’s a lap blanket……it’s much smaller than the old holed up one and no poncho style….it doesn’t cover a 1/4 of me……
WTF????
Oh, yeah…and with the extra wool….I have a matching scarf to keep the upper part of me warm as I sit in the cold upstairs….(i’m sure slippers are en route next).

I had the same feeling come over me……as I had for years with the S.
I DONT NEED A OVERSIZED SHAWL…..She asked me what I wanted……dumb me thought this is what I would receive…..

I don’t even know how to describe it…….it’s kinda like the crazy making behaviors…..it’s NOT like I can complain to her…..she’d pull the ungrateful card… Oh, how you don’t appreciate my efforts….etc…
To me….it’s just another example and brings up all the times she’s done the same fucking thing to me……
like going 1/2 way……

It’s like me saying how I’d really appreciate a scarf in this cold weather and really needing one……and getting tube sox.
Be thankful?????

I know it’s the thought that counts in a gift……and the thought I see in her doing this is another selfish malicious mind fuck.

It leads into so many other things…triggers…..
Like last week during this phone call she made to alert me of my package……she also made a comment on how THEY choose to spend their money on themselves…..traveling…..
Where the hell did that come from…..
Yes, we sit here trying to modify the mtg…..need to save money by not turning on the heat upstairs……and they are
unsolicited….i may say…..REMINDING me of HOW they choose to spend their money?????

She also, finally disclosed my father is ‘unwell’…..my only response I could muster up was……..”OH, SUCH AS LIFE”…..
This is the statement she has made to me over and over and over and over……so I back at’d her with it……

Looking back at how they responded with such envy when we purchased this house……my fathers response when he was being showed the home was……’wheres the money laundering room’……. I was pissed off…..I had worked my ASS off, finding my own career, saved like hell……and this is the ‘hey I’m proud of you kiddo……response from my father……

I now see……they are jelouse of me…..(WIERD) and when I am experienceing hardships……they couldn’t be happier……
Let’s never help EB……let’s keep her ‘off balance’……..let’s try and make her dependant on us…….
FUCK YOU…..i’d rather live under a bridge…..with my lap blanket shawl ugly colored thing with matching scarf!!!!!

I have never asked my parents for anything…..they loaned me 8K on my first house AND THEY PUT A SECOND ON THE HOUSE TO SECURE THE LOAN……
Reading this, it would seem as I had a track record of borrowing money and asking them for things…..NOT SO…..that 8K was the only money I borrowed AND I PAID IT BACK IN a year and a half!!!! Doubled up on payments etc….
They have given my molester brother tons of money over the years…..supported him, stored shit for him, paid his monthly bills and CONTINUE to babysit him…..I have always been independant and they HATE THIS!!!!
As a parent, this makes no sense to me……I want my kids to do much better than me……make more money, marry the perfect partner for them, have more happiness and take life by the balls…….I just can’t imagine wanting/wishing ill for my children……either consciously or subconsciously…….
I will be proud of them for THEIR achievements…..

Not so with my parents……
So…..I sit here wondering wht the hell to do with this damn scarf and lap throw……maybe I can use it as a sling to carry in the firewood thats’ really gonna keep me warm!!!!

Sorry……just a rant!
(Report abusive comment)

Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 3:51pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Nice rant, Erin. I liked what you wrote about anger in the other thread too.

You know, they are who they are. It has nothing to do with you. And likewise, you can’t make them — no matter how much you wish — anything else.

They’re jealous, stingy, insensitive, unable to give credit where it’s due, over-impressed with their own contributions, etc. etc. None of that is really what you’re suffering from. What’s hurting you is that you haven’t stopped wishing they were something else. That old Lucy and Charlie Brown with the football thing.

Part of this, in fact a lot of this, is the angry phase. You’re focusing on your disappointments or grievances with them. Which is okay. It helps you get clear about what’s meaningful to you, and who supports that and who doesn’t. There’s nothing wrong with recognizing that there is a whole set of your needs that they’re never going to meet.

But that’s who they are. And it’s like getting mad at a dog because it doesn’t sing opera. Would you take that personally?

Ah, but you say, they expect me to appreciate them and act like they’re my wonderful, loving parents.

I’d quibble with that one. I think you think they expect you to think that they’re perfect, and act like doting parents on them. Well, maybe they do, but that would make them a little loony. And let’s say they are a little loony, where does that leave you?

You’re dealing with two people whose grip on their own reality is flawed. And who have no grip whatsoever on your reality, and don’t even know the difference.

So beyond wanting them to be what they’re not (sorry, that’s not on the table), what do you want from this situation? What would be the best possible outcome you could imagine in dealing with them as they are? What would make you happy?

As long as you’re in the angry phase, what would make you happy is probably finding more reasons to be aggrieved. But let’s say you’re not in the angry phase. What are they good for in your life? Really? Is there anything that you’d like out of this relationship for you or your kids?

If you can figure that out, then you can go after it. Reinforce their good behavior. Ask for what you want. If you don’t get it, say thanks for the effort, but let’s focus on other things in the future. If they do something you hate, say “I hate it when you do that.” Teach them how to be good, by being what you want them to be, and ignoring what doesn’t match. It might take a year or two, but they’ll figure it out, if they really want a relationship with you.

Honesty can be truly a weird element in a relationship that was formerly based on nice lies. People get shocked. They think you’re being rude or not playing by the rules. They accuse you of deliberately trying to be hurtful. They’re so accustomed to burying their own truth that they feel like they deserve payback by everyone else burying theirs. So when you inject authenticity into these relationships, it can take a while for them to get the hang of it and realize it’s a good thing. You’ll notice them starting to divulge things with a kind of guilty pleasure long before they actually get a grip on the fact that you’ve changed the game in a good way.

Going through all this drama isn’t something we’d do with just anyone. It tends to be with family. And it requires us to be willing to live through all their resistance. (Which generally means staying away from them a lot more while they noodle it through. They’ll come back to us when they realize that they can talk to us in a way they can’t talk to anyone else.)

In the meantime, I’d find someone who needs a baby blanket and re-gift it. Tell your mom it was just so pretty but too small for what you needed that you didn’t want it to be wasted. And make sure your friend with the baby sends your mom a nice thank you note, telling her that she’s heard all about what a sensitive and generous person she is. There’s no time like the present to start reinforcing the right behavior.

Kathy
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 4:58pm
slimone says:

EB,

I SO get your rant. And though most of my own stories don’t trigger my ire or hurt in the telling, I am still working on the damage, to my beliefs, left in their wake. But here is a little taste of my momster……

Years ago I received a package from my mother, for my birthday. On top was a cute pair of undies, with the price tag on. Went to look at the undies underneath, and they were all clean (and washed), USED undies. And she has oodles of money. This was my birthday present, after not speaking to her for 5 years. A wierd narcissistic ‘invitation’ to reconnect with a poison arrow thrown in for punishment.

When I divorced 5 years ago my mother’s supporting line was the classic “Well now you don’t have a pot to piss in, or a window to throw it out!”. Then when I bought my apartment, she walked in, looked at the 700sq feet, and exclaimed “I guess your father and I won’t be sleeping here when we visit”. No “I’m so proud of you….you earn your own way in the world…..you have really turned this situation around…..how happy you must be to own your first place….”

I get that my mother has her own unacknowledged/unhealed narcissistic wounds. That she could not give to me what she is still needing (mirroring, ‘cherishment’, affirmation, encouragement, and acceptance). I have learned, recently, that her mother was a bonefide n/p, that she knew her, probably p, husband was having sex with one of her four daughters, and had molested many of us grand daughters. My stepfather tells me that she was really horrible to my mom, and belittled her for nearly everything. And my mother visited her EVERY day, trying to win her over. She bought her nice things, and my grandmother trashtalked my mom till the end.

It can be a cycle of deprivation that goes on forever, until we wake up. Kathleen points out, so well, how our experiences with the n/p’s do have the effect of us WANTING to wake up, allowing for a disruption in the cycle of wrong-headed, and self-abusing beliefs.

So glad you are awake- loving and encouraging your children! And I like the idea of using the lap throw as a wood-sling. Perfect.

Goodwill is also a good way of recycling those ‘nasty gifts’, and sorta changing the energy around them to that of the true spirit of giving.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 5:20pm
pollyannanomore says:

One Step and SS – the void is a good description of what this ennui is. I write endlessly without saying anything – am in turns angry, sad, hopeless, hopeful and empty. It’s a strange place to be. I no longer get the intense pain from hoping he can be different and being punched in the gut each time evidence emerges that he can’t be – that was truly awful.

But now my worry is I can’t move beyond this yet – it’s taking such a long time. I think to myself ‘you’ve broken up with him – long time ago so why is it so significant to find out he is a raging P? Why does that make the difference now? And why can’t you just forget it and move on like a normal breakup?’

My mind answers ‘because you have to now review everything in light of a crucial piece of evidence that was missing at the time – it’s like re-opening a murder case years later when the final piece of the puzzle has been found’

I feel almost as though I am meant to review everything, but the problem is when I try to look back I am struck with a blur most of the time. I can’t remember. It’s scary how much is forgotten or repressed. I get an incident coming up every now and then and write it down to understand it, but can’t remember the everyday interactions or the arguments. I know there were lots of them, but I don’t recall them. It’s almost like the years were a mist that I drifted through with no conscious awareness.

EB I can relate to not getting what you ask for from parents.

As an adult, I am looking for what that small incident taught me and how it fed into the later P relationship. It taught me that my wishes don’t count, my voice isn’t heard and my desires don’t matter. It also taught me there is no point in speaking up as people will inevitably disappoint you in one way or another. And to be grateful for whatever crumbs are thrown your way. It taught me that others know better than me what I want and to shut up when I don’t get what I want.

I feel angry to see how denied my personhood was back then and still is today. Such a simple interaction started setting me up for the horror of the relationship with the P by encouraging me to denigrate my own personhood and put the feelings and wishes of others before my own. And there were thousands of those interactions throughout my childhood to reinforce the message that my voice doesn’t count – others do – any others but just not me.

I see how this plunge to the bottom in the relationship with the P was strongly correlated to the abuse perpetrated against me during childhood. I had no rights to any opinion, no right to express any other emotion than happiness and was to be seen and not heard. And who is there for me when I need that nurturance? nobody. My pain is denied ‘oh you’re exaggerating – it can’t have been that bad’ ‘Is this your new obsession that he has a personality disorder? Last year you thought he was just depressed’ ‘Cheer up – you’re always looking miserable these days.’It’s about time you were moving on – he’s gone now so you can stop going on about him’

None of these understandings help me to FEEL any better though. I see the links clearly and understand how I was essentially groomed for being in an abusive relationship by virtue of my upbringing, but knowing these things and understanding them at a deep level doesn’t help me feel better about what happened. I still feel a fool. I still feel mad he took so many years from me and has no remorse about any of it. I still feel sad that the facade had to end.

SO perhaps this is the void -= maybe the void is a waiting place while all these individual understandings mesh up to create a solid history we can relate to and move on with. I don’t know but I sure hope to graduate from here soon! After the hellish pain of the relationship, I didn’t expect any more pain on ending it and am finding it difficult to cope with due to my fragility at the moment. I so wish I had never met him. But I’m trying to look at it as a learning gift that forces me to examine the past in my childhood and put all the pieces together.

Please have a good day everyone!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 5:33pm
ErinBrock says:

So….what your saying….is when i visit the shelters looking for a new puppy…..I should curve my expectations of the puppy being able to sing opera? How about Classical….is that lowering my expectation sufficiently?

What you say is….as always….so right on…..
I have asked myself, why I bother….why I can’t just say to them DO NOT CALL ME, or at least not answer the phone when she calls…..I think it’s because I want any and all info on if/when the S contacts them….even the tidbits they throw at me…..a month later….

The only thing I want from them, I CAN”T HAVE. A ‘normal’ relationship….the fantasy of what I thought I had with them……visits, shopping, meals, holidays blah, blah…..I wanted them to be good gparents to the kids….but they are NOT.
They could care less…..they thrive on the negative and I think they just set us all up to talk about the negative…..and perpetuate it…..
My mother is the kind of woman to volunteer for whatever…..and at home bitch about it relentlessly….but when volunteering she’s the belle of the ball…..she’s FAKE.
But, I do know…..I can’t have what I want, I will never get what I need from them and the whole relationship is dead…..
Part of me wishes for them to be dead, so I can have a nice relationship openly with my aunt and cousins without everyone keeping ’secrets’ or being drilled from my mother about why they see us, why tey invite us to dinner, what did she give YOU for christmas,mothers day, birthday….etc…..
It’s a family deal….and I have a better relationship of acceptance from my aunt (her twin). And my mother HATES THIS!!!

I feel a similar betrayal as I did with the S…..and I knew this would ooozzzee out of me, and I’m not sure I’m ready to tackle it head on….emotionally…..I’d like some peace in 2010….but….dealing with it would offer me peace…..

I’ve always been the ’shocking’ one in the family of ‘nice lies’, it’s what Ive been dealing with my whole life…..I raise the ruckus…..I allow the neighbors to see we are not perfect as portrayed, I tell others about being molested by their golden child……I beat to my own drum……I am not the nice lie….like them……
SO I have lived my life with punishment……getting the friggen baby blankets and ugly scarfs……
OMG….I just remembered, when I was first pregers…..I needed a crib…..I GOT A DRILL!!!!!!!
ANother example!
ANyways…..I really don’t want to play the game….I knew this all along and the only way I can exit the game is to exit…..
My reserve is my kids….I feel I have to keep some sort of ‘opening’ there because they will attack my kids…..and how can my kids swallow the pill that their GP’s are the same cloth as their father……in different ways…..
They see the behaviors of their father…..clear as day.
And they see and have pulled away from GP’s to some extent….but still have contact…..
Mother drills them about me and i have requested them to say nothing about me or my life to GP’s….
I see Gp’s doing the ’splitting’ thing with the kids…..kids don’t always tell me when they have spoken to Gp’s…..
I don’t know…..
I can’t control any of it…..I DO KNOW THIS>
And I can’t change any of it…….

Thanks for your input Kathy, it means so much….
in the meantime….I keep writing and writing……

I need to find a prego friend in need of a warm blanket…..
ANY TAKERS? I can throw in cookbooks for free too!
The only expectation is a thank you note to mother.

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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 5:40pm
style1 says:

Erin Brock..
Oh wow!… Reading your post made me want to cry.. it carried such emotion…

FYI.. I am the independant on in my family.. my parents were hardest on me.. not that they didn’t help me when I needed it. But I watched them spoil the others and give give give.. and I was beat the hell up for anything that I needed.. or any mistake.. as time went on… I realized that I was the lucky one…

And I came to an understanding…

My Dad whom I thought thought I was some failure since he seemed to be so hard on me…
was telling people and it got back to me. that I was his independant one.. that I was the only one that lived away from the family .. that I am a talented this and that.. that I always tell him the truth and I am always right.. that I am the apple of his eye..

then one night in a soulful talk.. he told me that there were times, that he wished that I was the only one that he had.. because I was the brightess, the most beautiful and the best…

I just stared at him in disbelief.. I had thought that I was a bitter disppointment to him in some way.. that I had let him down and was therefore banished and criticised to death..

then I felt sorry for my siblings hearing him say this to me..
one of my sisters told me when she got her doctorate that it didn’t matter what she did because Dad would always love you more…

I felt like the worst when my Dad thinks very hightly of me..
and my sisters treated me badly at times because they could feel that he thought I was special…

I watched them get things that I had to fight for.. I felt like I paid with my soul when I needed help.. one of my sisters’ children squandered an amount of money of my father’s that I will not state because it is an unbelievable amount and he seemed to skate by.. and I think had I done that my father would’ve disowned me.. as I was raked over the coals for doing so much less… every little infraction it seemed that I got anniliated…

BUT now.. I see… I was given a gift..the gift of character.. the gift of hoaning my character and I am glad and I stand proud….

I hope my writing this means something to you..
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 5:51pm
Rosa says:

“I need to find a prego friend in need of a warm blanket….ANY TAKERS?”

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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 6:12pm
ErinBrock says:

Thanks Polly, Slim and Style for your response and sharing your parental stories…..
I feel like I am ’starting over’, fresh scabs being peeled back…..the knowledge of my parents……it’s not a shock and it’s not a secret to me…..i just haven’t dealt with it like I should….head on…..
I have obviously been ‘grieving’ the loss of the parental relationship from the minute I was admitted to the hospital….actually a few years earlier, they did some crap when i moved the S’s grandmother in a retirement home….they pulled the wierdest things, the whole family was shocked by thier treatment of me…..then it got worse….a few years later upon hospitalization….and they abandoned me and called the S to ‘come save the day’….you must be with your wife…..she’s dying…..
It started the whole unraveling mess of me being held ‘hostage’ by the S during my illness….and I’m sure, extended my recovery for several years with the stress of his crap.
This blew open the whole bag of who i ‘counted’ on as ‘family’….and BOY was I wrong…..
I educated myself about the ex……and recognized behaviors from the parents…..but I could only do so much to keep from jumping into the grand canyon and being done with it all…..AND I WASN”T GOING TO DO THAT……so the parental issue got set ‘aside’…..it wasn’t ‘in my face’, The Ex was…..and my health was……
I just had too much on my plate….Now, I got my health, and divorce…..and I guess it’s time to address the reality of the parental crapola.
Maybe it’s easier…..because I know what I know…..I have researched toxic persons and know they are toxic…..
But, I maybe have to start with the grief of the loss of the fantasy of what I wanted my parents to be.
It will be easier as the kids grow and fly on their own…..

I know at this point there is nothing my mother could do that i would be happy about….I have become so critical of her that I pick her apart…..
I did this with the S.
Maybe it’s my way of placing a distance between us…..confirming the behaviors….by concentrating on them…..
But, at this point I see nothing good in my parents….
My fathers brother was a total dickwad….I mean TOTAL WAD!!!
I used to tell my father……if you turn out to be as bitter and nasty and argumentative as him…..you will run off your family….
AND HERE HE IS.
The dickwad brother died a few years ago….alone….no one knew he was dead for days…..because he was so unpleasant to be around, no one checked in on him…..
It was the cleaning lady who found him…..and there was only 5 people at his memorial…..and no one knew what to say….so no one spoke…..
my brother said it was so weird, he has never been to anything like that, awkward.

I found these gloves in a thrift store on Saturday….they were stupid looking….gloves with reindeer antlers sticking out from them……WTF???
I thought, who would buy those, and for what purpose???
Then I thought…..hey, i should get those for mother……maybe a birthday gift???
Give it right back at her…..call her, tell her a box is on it’s way and I’m so excited…..give me a call when you open it….I just know your’lll like it…..i thought of you immediately.
You know what….she’d just call me and tell me how much she liked them and always wanted something like that.

That would not be teaching her what I want from her though….so disregard.

Used undies……NICE!!! I do think it’s about the ‘packaging’….put the nice bow on top with the pretty paper….get you excited that you have contact after 5 years and are sharing gifts…..gee, warm fuzzy ……then the package is opened….and kaboom…..used panties!!!

Polly, Denied pain, denied emotions, denied feelings….yeah….it’s the validation we are after….i guess the answer to that is the validation can only come from within.

“maybe the void is a waiting place while all these individual understandings mesh up to create a solid history we can relate to and move on with.”

This is what I call putting the puzzle pieces together……i think your on to something with this statement!! For sure.
Graduation day in NOT only in June……

Slim:
Perception…..it’s the inner dilema between reality and fantasy….
It’s like the popular cheerleader…..everyone thinks she has it all together and happy as pie……
she has, what other teens want….on the outside…..but in reality, she is jsut as miserable being a teen as they are…..just different experiences…..
Everyone wants straight hair when they have curly, everyone wants to be tall when short….
We just need to validate ourselves…..
Character is important, awareness of ‘who’ you are and ‘who’ you’d like to be is important…..
Thanks for writing and sharing!!!!
Every stroke means something to me!
Thanks guys!
XXOO
EB
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 6:29pm
ErinBrock says:

Rosa:
Now I dont want you and Oxy to fight over the blanket?
I also have a scarf, just as hideious!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 6:41pm
Rosa says:

Did someone say Prego Friend??

Erin, your timing could not be more perfect!!
My 30th birthday is only a few months away!

I’m sticking with the 29-year-old pregnant woman scenario until the end of the year (only 3 more days).

~Tiny blankets must be en vogue this season. I also recieved a “beautiful” blanket for Christmas from my cousin.
She followed up with an e-mail that read, “If you don’t like it, give it to the Humane Society.”
The blanket would actually be nice, if I were 2 feet shorter than what I am. My cousin is getting up there in years.
Enough said.
God bless her. Her intentions were good.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 6:53pm
ErinBrock says:

Always had a knack with the timing thing…..

How bout if we trade….at least yours was made with good intentions….
and at least she authorized you to pass it along….

On second thought…..
I may keep it, we may get a puppy to brighten our days……(of course, Kathleen highly recommended an opera signing one….) so the pups may need to keep her vocal cords warm in my freezing house.
GREAT IDEA!!!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 6:59pm
OxDrover says:

FIGHT? FIGHT?

Who wants to fight for it? Put yer dukes up, bare knuckles, no gloves, eye gouging, ear biting, bare knuckled blood bath and the LOSER HAS TO TAKE THE BLANKET!!!!

ROTFLMAO
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:10pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

pollyannanomore, you wrote “I think to myself ‘you’ve broken up with him – two yrs ago so why is it so significant to find out he is a raging P? Why does that make the difference now?”

I don’t think anyone who hasn’t gone through this can imagine what hard work it is to get to the point of recognizing that we were involved with bad people. When I got to the stage that we all get to, of turning the memories over and over, trying to shake them out into some coherent story I could tell myself about what happened, I just couldn’t get it. Sometimes he was great, affectionate, logical, full of neat contributions to my life. Other times he was horrible in ways that I couldn’t even name, because they were just outside my understanding. And then there was the way I agreed to everything, trying to be generous, trying to be kind, trying to be trustworthy, hoping against hope he’d finally figure out what a great person I was.

At some point, I finally realized that I was trying to figure out if he was a bad person. That was the language. A bad person. And I went into myself to find out where that language came from. It was from a very young age, maybe three or four years old.

And what was a bad person to that little me? It was someone who was mean to me. Someone that I didn’t have to like or care about. Because I was at the stage of development where I was learning about good guys and bad guys, playing cowboys and Indians, cops and robbers. The bad guys were the people who were dangerous, not nice, not “us.” And I didn’t have to apply all those rules of being nice to people to them. I didn’t have to care about them at all, except to protect myself from them. That was the only job I had with bad guys. To recognize them and protect myself.

So here I am in my mid-50s, trying to understand what happened. And trying to be mature and understanding, and responsible, and give him the benefit of the doubt because of his bad background and emotional problems, and be aware of how I had failed to deal with him very well, and blah blah blah.

Little me was sending a telegram up to my conscious brain, telling me that it could be a lot simpler than I was making it. Just answer the question — was he a bad guy?

This may sound like total nonsense (because it is), but I felt responsible for him. Through our whole relationship, I had so much power to make him okay, or not okay. I made huge concessions because was so helpless and pitiful, and because he was so unemployed (after I’d been supporting him), and because he was so desperately unhappy (why he couldn’t love me), and because was so insecure (why he was so abusive), and because he really needed me to another sacrifice because he just had no other options.

I’d been brought up with people who treated each other abominably and managed to convince each other that it was all the fault of the person who wasn’t giving enough. I grew up surrounded by “bad guys” who couldn’t be bad guys, and wouldn’t be bad guys if I could just figure out the right thing to sacrifice.

So I’d never really known anyone I could unarguably identify as a bad guy. Until this moment.

And you know, it was just kind of terrifying. I waffled and wavered and wondered if I was really allowed to identify someone as a bad guy. If the sky would crack open and a lightening bolt would strike me dead if I decided to stop being so understanding and self-sacrificing. But I finally did creep up to it on tippy-toes, get a grip on it and do it. I decided he really was a bad guy.

And that parachuted me right into the angry phase. Because he hurt me. He made me feel bad. He didn’t care whether I cried. He kept hurting me no matter what I did. And he tried to kill me. Maybe not with a knife or a gun, but he treated me in ways that made me sick, stole my good stuff, and threw me in the garbage can when he was through.

Can you hear the age in this voice? I had to go back that far into my history to get a version of me that had this clarity of viewpoint. But I found her, and she/I didn’t like what happened. And she didn’t like him. Access to anger was one of the first developmental blocks I removed, and in retrospect, it’s kind of funny and delightful that way that angry little girl grew up in my angry phase. Fast too.

But here was the really dangerous thing about finally identifying someone as a bad guy, because of the way they treated me. I did it that the first time, and then I started looking differently at a lot of things I previously “understood” and was “mature” about and willing to “help them out” about. My whole whole life started undergoing some serious retrospective revision. And gosh, I actually started to get some standards about what I would and wouldn’t accept as respectful behavior toward me. Standards I didn’t have to think about or manage with rules I read about in recovery books or question whether I really have a right to want.

Am I being too cute here? Probably. But this is really, really important. It’s not whether he was a sociopath, although that was what I was originally trying to figure out too. It’s if he deserves any slack from me at all, any caring about why he’s the way he is, or any evaluation more complicated than a very, very bad person who hurt me and didn’t care. Oh yeah, and I didn’t like it.

All that said, Erin, I totally understand about prioritization. You had bigger fish to fry than your parents. It’s a great testament to your triumph over some of those more urgent issues that you can get around now to consider what to do about the parents.

In that sense, I’m kind of glad my parents are gone. I had some interesting confrontations with them before they died, and got to see the positive impact of my getting better, particularly on my beaten-down mother. And it was a pleasure to spend the money my father had hoarded on my recovery. He would have had a stroke to see it going to therapists, and living expenses when I quit work for two years.

Style1’s last post about stopping the cycle reminded me of something. We are so lucky to be living now at a time when we actually can stop the cycle. Woman have birth control and the chance to be financially independent. We have knowledge of psychotherapy and recovery programs. The internet has made us so sophisticated and aware in ways most of our parents never were. And we have each other to share our experiences.

This is an amazing time, and I’m so grateful.

Kathy
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:20pm
ErinBrock says:

OXY….you provide me the BEST VISUALS…….

You crack me up!!!
Thanks for the laugh!
**don’t forget the scarf….that has to go too!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:22pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Oh lord, I was involved in that long, serious posts and you guys are fighting over dog blankets and singing puppies?

I love you!!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:23pm
eileen says:

“This may sound like total nonsense (because it is), but I felt responsible for him”.

…doesn’t sound like nonsense to me…been there! They are really great manipulators: they control us so well that they make us believe we are the ones in control!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:29pm
ErinBrock says:

I can’t tell you how hard I am laughing now Kathleen…..
I’m in tears…….
The beauty of posting…..
Ya just never know who your posting over!
At any rate….I did…AS ALWAYS…appreciate and enjoy your post….even though at the time I did have my mind on what opera I prefered my puppy of choice to be singing…..
I love you!!!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:32pm
OxDrover says:

Okay, if I have to fight someone to keep from taking the stinking ugly scarf I am PREPARED TO DIE FOR MY RIGHT NOT TO HAVE IT! I will go down fighting to the death–well, either that or a HANG NAIL, one or the other, whichever comes first! LOL

Glad you got a laugh, guys! I’m doing more and more of that lately, laughing, that is!

Even with the anxiety about the parole board and so on, my son C and I have been poppinig back and forth with the WISE CRACKS since a couple of days before Christmas, and son D is only about an hour away from coming back home, had to detour through Oklahoma City to avoid the icy roads and contrustion AND icy roads through Tulsa, more bad weather on the way tomorrow night so may be in for it again, even NY Eve supposed to be bad weather, so DRUNKS playing BUMPER CARS on ICY ROADS ON NY’S EVE, sounds like a good time to STAY HOME and celebrate with you guys!

Gotta go now, the books I ordered myself for my birthday got here today and I’m gonna go read MaryJo’s book, can’t wait! Have a good night guys!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:37pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Puccini, of course. La Boheme, Mimi’s song. Something like a long-legged, sad-eyed hound. Ooooooooww, ow, ow, owwwhow wow wow wow wow…..

Somehow I can see Oxy in her house iwith all the windows lit up to guide her son home, with old clothes floating up out of the chimney and off into the night.

Have a good read, Oxy, and happy birthday. And prayers to get your boy home safe and sound.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 7:52pm
ErinBrock says:

ROTFLMAO………..STOP. STOP….i’m going to pee the pants..

I’ve been listening to phantom of the opera music in my car this week….driving home about an hours ride….I noticed the toxic – sociopathic words in the music that I have loved for so long…..
I remember one time after the S came home (from what I now assume was a ‘titty’ bar, out all night) He was supposed to be home for something importiant and ‘blew’ it off….I was so pissed in the morning…..I mean PISSED OFF!
The kids were little and we went upstairs and I showed them my ‘new’ CD…..I ROCKED IT …..window shaking loud…..and sang at the top of my lungs as the kids danced….like stomped on the floor……right above the bedroom.
All to the phantom……boom, boom, boom ,boom, boom……
As the asshole went to bed…..We took a break…..made sure he was just falling off to the deeep sleep you get to when you’ve been up all night…..and had a oncore…..but added pots and pans to the mix……We had a ball……and the kids just thoguht we were having fun…..Oh, we were, we were!!!!

So….has anyone listened to the words like masquerade and phantom……
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 8:01pm
amber says:

Ok you guys are cracking me up with the fighting over the blanket and scarf thing. Thanks for putting a smile on my face today. I could really use some laughter.
Today has been kind of a downer for me. My sister has been here for the last 2 months visiting from England and we’ve always been very close. We’ve always been best friends. She credits me with finishing raising her. (Both of my parents checked out when she was in high school due to their marital problems, so I took over) She’s a brilliant young woman. Beautiful, smart, funny, life of the party. She has recently moved to England because she’s engaged to an English guy and has decided to go to grad school there. I am very proud of her for accomplishing so much at 24. But I never imagined my sister and I living so far away, so that bums me out. She’s the only sibling I have. But she left today, and over this last weekend, she really, REALLY made me think twice about out relationship. Maybe we’re not as close as I thought? And this makes me very sad.
She really hasn’t been very supportive with the break up of my ex S. She was along for a lot of the ride. My ex and her became pretty close too. So she knows all the details and once things went to shit, she could only tell me to move on. Besides that, her support was lacking. In fact, we were at a restuarant last week and I tried to talk to her about it, and once again she rolled her eyes and in her bitchy tone told me, “I’m not talking about this with you. You need to get over it and I can’t believe you’re still so hung up.” So I lost it in the restuarant and cried and told her how unsupportive I thought she was. She didn’t really have any response. Here I’m pouring my guts out in a restaurant, looking like a crazy woman and she sat there….cold.
Then this past weekend, her and MY best friend wanted to go out dancing. Well, it happened to be the place where I met my ex and I told them I wasn’t comfortable going there. Too many memories and I knew I wouldn’t enjoy myself. And I didn’t want to see his friends, and god for bid if he showed up there. Told them I would be up for anything else though!! Well, they got on the phone with each other and because this particular place was free vodka all night they decided that they didn’t give a shit if I went or not, didn’t even try and come up with somewhere else to go so I could be comfortable, and went! I was SHOCKED to say the least. I have never felt so left out in my life. I now am lower on the totem poll than a free night of vodka. WOW! Here it’s my sister’s last weekend here and I probably won’t see her for at least 6 months and going out to some fucking club serving free vokda is more important than spending some time somehwere else with your only sister.
So they crawled in the next day and I completely ignored them. They could tell I wasn’t happy. You could cut the tension in the room with a knife. So my friend left. My sister then, with attitutde, says, “Are you mad at ME for some reason??” So I explained to her how I felt, and she rolled her eyes and didn’t see anything wrong with her choice. Told me that that’s what SHE wanted to do. And it’s not her problem that I’m so insecure that I can’t go places because they are going to remind me of my ex. GASP. This was clearly not the response I thought I was going to get. Not from my little sister that I’ve supported 110% through EVERYTHING!! Not my little sister that I thought I was so close to. So the last 24 hours of her visit here were awful. I didn’t speak a word to her. And she said to me earlier..”so this is how you’re going to be my last day here?” Like I owe it to her to bend over backwards and be nice. HA! I didn’t even get off the couch to say goodbye to her today.
So now I feel guilty. I’m the older sister. I should set the example. But today I just feel like, F her! She didn’t give a shit about my feelings over the weekend. And if I meant that much to her then a night of free vodka wouldn’t have swayed her decision. It just makes me really sad. I feel like I’ve already lost my little sister to some guy in England and now even when she’s here, I don’t feel like I’m important. It’s the same feeling I got with my ex. I’ve never considered my sister to have any bad traits, but since she’s been engaged and living in England with her privilaged life, now I feel like I’m of no use to her anymore. Well, I am if she needs a ride to and from the airport. So this past weekend has been sort of eye opening as far as my relationship with my sister goes.
I don’t know how to feel really. I don’t know if I’m just being oversensitive or I’m realizing that my sister has changed. Sigh. Not a good feeling. And on top of that, one of my cats ran away. Actually it’s my sister’s cat, but she’s mine too since I’ve had her here for 8 years. She’s been missing for two weeks. I’ve put up signs, looked at shelters, looked around all the surroundings neighborhoods….Nothing. So today is filled with loss for me. I’m ok, just trying to stay strong. Trying to figure out my feelings. Just needed to vent I guess.
I LOVE being able to come here and sort out my thoughts. And I’m so THANKFUL for all of you here. Thankful for your stories, support and advice. And thank you for making me laugh today! I needed it! HUGS to everyone!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 8:38pm
ErinBrock says:

Amber:
I think, until they are in ‘need’ (our support system), people in general do NOT live up to our expectations of support.
The rolled eye thing must be infuriating for you……as my mothers “such as life’ comments…..
It is a lack of validation.
I bet you….if the shoe was on the other foot….she’d have your undying suport…..and forego the free vodka!

It is hurtful when we give so much to others and they do not return the ‘favor’ in the times we need them…..but this is what we must realize….if we have NO expectations of others….they can’t disappoint.

The good thing is….you will have time to think about your response to her…..and how your going to deal with your bff.
Honesty is key with your emotions…..but Kathleen nailed it today…..teach them what you need.

Sorry it worked out this way…..I am sure you never inteneded or expected this….
I believe we go through an evolution of looking at people in our lives through different eyes….as we grow ‘older’ and wiser.

XXOO
EB
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 8:57pm
amber says:

P.S. I LOVE THE LILY ALLEN SONG!!!! LOL so hard!!!!! That’s perfect!!! And I also read someone, sorry I don’t remember who it was, but the Lady GAGA song Bad Romance. LOVE IT!!!!! Anytime I hear it in my car I turn it all the way up and sing at the top of my lungs…badly I’m sure, but god I feel so much better after!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 9:06pm
ErinBrock says:

Got me through the divorce!!!
Catchy tune!!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 9:13pm
amber says:

Thanks EB. I honestly feel like what I’ve been through the last couple years has made me really grow up and reevaluate what is really important to me. I guess my sister and my friend haven’t had to face anything yet, that has made them do the same. Life has been handed to them on a silver plater and it’s all about having fun, and self gratification and RIGHT NOW.
It saddens me to know that people will not ever live up to their expectations. That’s a big lesson for me to learn. And the rolling of the eyes does infuriate me. Here I practically finished raising you, and all I need is a shoulder to cry on, and apparently that’s too taxing for her. Shocked is the only way to descibe how I feel right now.
I was very honest with my feelings and told her exactly how I felt and she still didn’t care. Which brought me to how I feel now. It just sucks to know even your own family can burn you. And you’re right, if the shoe was on the other foot, I’d be there without question and unconditionally. And I have been. I even told her when I was crying in the restaurant, that god for bid if it was her in my place. And that I hope that everything works out between her and her fiance. Because when it doesn’t and you come crying to me, how would you feel if my response was, you need to get over it, I can’t believe you’re so hung up and roll my eyes. I told her I hope that I’m more supportive and understanding than she has been. She didn’t have anything to say.
I’m sorry she left with things they way they are. It’s an uneasy feeling. But I think I need the time to form a response for when she does decide I’m good enough to speak to. As for my friend who religiously calls me daily, she still hasn’t called and I don’t expect her to. Sometimes her head is so far up her ass I can’t believe I’m even friends with her. Maybe she’s not as good of a friend as I thought she was.
Well thanks again for the response and letting me vent. And for the LILY ALLEN ANTHEM!!!! LOL!!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 9:20pm
blindsided31 says:

kathleen hawk-
Your post from earlier this evening made me cry. 18 months after he discarded me like an insignificant “casual”(his word) acquaintance and after 7 months of no contact, I still am struggling mightily with how to reconcile the person I thought I knew with the “bad” person I now know him to be. I still cannot come to grips with how another human being ( or is that too nice a description?) could be so nice to someone for almost 2 years and not have meant any of it.
Some say this type of discard is worse than a death, and I truly can say that is so. There he is, apparently going happily on with his life, not giving the slightest thought to how much he has hurt me- ( I now know that is because he does not have feelings like we do, does not know love as we do or hurt as we do). With a death, you can at least be comforted with thinking that the person cared about you and didn’t mean to leave.
As much as I wish I didn’t, I still think about him every day. Even though I told him not to contact me (and he hasn’t) 7 months ago, I still wish every day that he would. Even though he said he would probably hurt me again (and he would), I still miss him so much.
Time has made some difference, but I don’t see myself as ever being the same, ever trusting like I trusted him, ever loving like I did with him. I hope I am wrong. It is a very hard struggle and this time of year is especially hard.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 10:33pm
Stargazer says:

What’s up with the scarf? What happened to the skillet? Are we now strangling people with scarves instead of hitting them with the skillet? I suppose it’s quieter…..
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 10:46pm
ErinBrock says:

Star:
It was in regards to a post/rant I made earlier today,,,,this thread 3:51 pm.
Got it out about the stupid christmas ‘gift’ from the parents…..

No worries. the Skillet is still on scene and ready for boinking….
BUT….your ideas for the scarf are viable too!!!
Hmmmmm.
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 11:01pm
Stargazer says:

LOL
We had a thread on the reptile site called “The ‘What did you want/what did you get” thread.” (talking about Christmas gifts). Two members got skillets for Xmas. One of them was cast iron. I had a small fit of laughter by myself cause they would have no idea what a skillet is really for!
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 11:22pm
ErinBrock says:

Did it have batteries?

hahahahahaahhahahaha
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 12:51am
pollyannanomore says:

Kathleen thanks for responding – that was such a big post and had so much meaning, I don’t know if I can do it justice in responding back … but I got each line as I read it.
You wrote …
And then there was the way I agreed to everything, trying to be generous, trying to be kind, trying to be trustworthy, hoping against hope he’d finally figure out what a great person I was.

I could so relate to this – why did I bend over backwards trying to be the bigger person? And why did I think that if he could just see how ‘good’ I was he would start reciprocating?? Because that was how it was in the past for me perhaps – there was reciprocation. And this was my way of coping with his not meeting me halfway – my tactic was to try harder than ever, give more, be more, love more. Truth be told, I thought I could love him better from his sickness that had no name. And I couldn’t. Admitting that was so so hard. I really did try everything I could.

So I grew up thinking I was defective. I was never asked how I felt about anything. It wasn’t till I was much older that I realised there is a huge landscape of emotions and terms to describe them – elation, joy, disgust, revulsion, pain, loneliness, guilt, anxiety, empathy, sorrow, sadness, jealousy. I wondered why any parent wouldn’t discuss such important concepts with their child – surely emotional intelligence is a critical part of surviving life on earth??

You wrote about playing cowboys and indians and there being a definite ‘bad guy’. I didn’t play those games so had no childish definition of what a bad guy was apart from what I saw later on television with America’s most wanted and felons on the run in the news etc. I grew up with mostly a strong Christian ethos and yes we talked about the Devil and his efforts to tempt people towards sin, but that was far too abstract a concept for me to apply to the people I was in daily contact with. Perhaps had the Priest said ‘If you encounter someone who lies and cheats all the time then they are probably following the Devil’s path and you should stay away from them’ then that would have helped make it more real a concept and less abstract and fluffy and metaphysical.

One more thing was really strong in me growing up – if my neighbour strikes my face, I am to turn the other cheek and forgive him.

And now you are right, it is not just about understanding the P relationship, or even the childhood wounding and family dynamics that led to it. It is about changing my whole world view – My old rules worked together to harm me deeply and I don’t know where to go from here. The Christian ethos of loving everyone and finding the good in everyone was a major part of who I was. I don’t know who I would be without it but it can’t remain in light of experiencing the evil that was the P.

SOme people have no good in them. SOme people have some good but the vile aspects far outweigh the good – what rule do I create for them? I can’t in reality just create rules for particular groups because we don’t know which camp each person falls into when we first get to know them – actually we don’t know them for a long time. The P was charming to start with. And sometimes very ‘understanding and supportive. And sometimes so vile and cruel it took my breath away. He could walk out of the house while I wept. He could work in a next door room and ignore it for hours while my heart broke within his earshot. He could make promises with invisible fingers crossed behind his back. He could lie to my face. He didn’t fit my image of what a bad person should be so I wasn’t prepared for what he did.

So I guess this is the problem I come to … after reading your posts and thinking and just letting the words come out themselves. How do I make rules to make the world safe for me to travel in again? How do I let my guard down after this? And how do I integrate this very strange person who was so much a part of my life into my history? I have no precedent model for what he was – sometimes the biggest ’soulmate’ and sometimes my sworn enemy though he denied it always. I have no schemata for that. People are either good or not. Trustworthy or not. Kind or not. Nice or not.

I feel that in dismantling the schemata that didn’t serve me I lose even more of my original self. And I just started to get it back in remembering who I was after years of his abuse. Perhaps this is why the stuck feeling is there – I need to sit with myself some more and replace each part that didn’t serve me slowly with something that reflects who I am now and my understandings from the experience before I move on. I can’t go back to having no personhood again – that was a frightening and empty existence. I need to find the elements I can hang onto and those that need to change I guess. You are wiser than me and further along in your healing – is this what you experienced?

The other thing is – it is hurtful to recall everything. I recall the relationship with the P and that’s hurtful enough, but then I go searching for the roots that are firmly entrenched in childhood. I wonder if parents ever really understand how many generations they effect in the ways they treat their children – sure they think about the child as an adult – but what about the child’s child and grandchildren?

So it’s another mind trip – mind bending and it’s hard after the mental battle that the relationship with the P was. I felt when I emerged from it, I was very lucky to be still alive and not have overdosed or committed suicide or gone seriously psychotic. It could have eventuated in all those things and more. I am still fragile from it and it’s hard to analyse all these things, but I know it’s very necessary. Maybe if I had been validated and told I was entitled to express my opinions instead of eating my own bitterness the P relationship never would have derailed my life.

It’s becoming abundantly clear to me … we are never the same afterwards and it’s a long long journey towards the light. That’s hard to take after so many years of abuse. I didn’t realise it would be this hard. I thought my new and happy life would begin as soon as his ass was out the door and it isn’t so. It isn’t fair that he caused all this and gets to walk away scot free with clean hands and conscience while I am left to struggle with all the implications of how my own radar system let me down.

(sorry – I know that’s a super long post but it all just poured out!)

I am laughing at the opera singing puppy – I was thinking La Traviata or some Puccini (Pooch – ini – drum roll please!) Oh gad now I am thinking funny lyrics for O mio babbino caro …

‘Oh my beloved Erin
Please get my biscuits now!
Then we’ll take off to the park
Run till you’ve got sweat on your brow

You can throw my ball
and I will play catch and fetch
You’ll throw a frisbee to me
Try to not hit my neck

You’re great and I love you sooooo much!
Let me sleep at the end of your bed ’
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:31am
imfree says:

Happy Holidays,
How do we heal after being touched by a Psycho? They usually seek people that are nice, and giving, caretakers,people that are good, and decent. They fool you
they mimic you, they find your weakness, and play upon it.
They seem so perfect, attractive, charming, someone you feel good with, you can relate to, you might even thank your lucky stars. Then you are hooked.
Once reality begins to sink in, and you realize there is something not right, but you have no control, you can’t fix it.
Once you get burned by a Psycho it’s hard to heal, you have to thank God you are still alive, it takes a while to want to meet anybody else, and let them in your life. It’s not easy
These posts here do help alot, people sharing their stories, and people learning from others. I believe that we are all here for a reason, and we all have to go thru different experiences in order for us to grow spiritually, maybe those people that come in contact with psychos, have to, because it’s in their Karma, Maybe the lesson is how you survive the Encounter with the Psycho, sometimes when we win, we also lose, I lost alot, but in the end I won, I’m Free, Psycho=[Free\
and now the Healing Journey begins.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:44am
ErinBrock says:

Polly:
Shall we name the opera singing puppy ‘Gianni’.

I swear, I don’t remember ever laughing so hard on this site as I have today!
Started with a rant…..and ended in laughter….LOVE IT!!
THANKS GUYS!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:46am
pollyannanomore says:

Very good strong operatic name Erin! I know about the laughter – we go so deep in thinking and analysing so a little light heartedness is a good thing – perhaps a side effect of the depth of analysis and self understanding that is happening.

Seriously though … a dog is a wonderful companion. I have two littlies and although they drive me nuts with their incessant demands they have healed me far more than they know. Sometimes taking them for a walk to the park was the only motivation I had for getting up out of bed.

They’re grand and I believe animals are very spiritually attuned. Mine are beautiful – they come lick my face and are all concerned if I am upset. It makes me feel less alone. Like someone immediately understands and wordlessly comforts me.

And of course we have rollicking games of fetch and rough housing on wet days. I was cross to be left with them – they’re a lot of responsibility but they’ve been lifesavers. Sometimes God really does work in mysterious ways
Glad you’re feeling better – you give so much to everyone here you know

Im free – some wisdom in that post – I haven’t seen you here before but I am pretty new myself. If you are new too – welcome welcome! If not new then nice to make your acquaintance This is a good place for the healing journey!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 3:19am
LouiseGolem says:

Kathy,
Thanks for a lovely Christmas posting. What strikes me about it, and some of the subsequent postings, is that it shows how folks who get involved with psychopaths and other abusers are really people who in their hearts seek to make change and produce a positive world for us all to live in. And the abusers see the abundance of positive creative energy that we harbor as something that can buoy them up through another day, week, month, year — however long they can snag us for, and they suck it out of us.

I love this passage from the posting above:
“This is about a war – profound and eternal – of belief. Are we, as sociopaths believe, essentially alone in an uncaring and untrustworthy world, forced by circumstance and entitled by the survival instinct to take whatever we can grab for ourselves? Or is there something about us that is blessed by connection to something larger – the love we share with other people, our dependence on the combined strength of our communities, our instinct that an infinite wisdom and strength exists beyond our imagining, larger than us, but also part of us?”

My feeling is–we have the power within us to make either of those realities true. If those of us who believe in community, love, and “something larger than us” unite, we will create that very thing we believe in. If we give in to the abusers and users of the world, we will help her/him create and maintain their nihilistic sense of reality.

It’s up to us, really. It’s so sad that they leave us so empty. This blog has so much potential to be a source of real light and power, if only we could all just sing that Kathy Allen song together (thanks so much for that!) and get on with it, wisely, though.

love and peace in 2010 to all!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:02pm
slimone says:

PollyA- thanks for your wonderful long, deep sharing. Very enlightening, as I relate to so much of what you observe about yourself, your childhood, and the questions that you have about developing a new schemata- that represents who you are, and who you are becoming. Really beautiful to witness your expanding awareness and healing.

Imfree- welcome to LF. Your post also spoke to me. Being psycho-free is the grand beginning!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:18pm
ErinBrock says:

Hi Guys:
Okay, yesterday…..ya’ll pushed me over the edge…..
You know how I truely belive everything happens for a reason….
Well….this morning I got the call…..from the shelter…..
I found this dog….14 months old…..on the web…..(doggie web dating)….
I cut and pasted her picture and info…..
The next night I went to my computer and up popped her ‘profile’…..I was mortified I had left it up….as i didn’t want the kids to see it and bug me about her…..I wanted to just see how I felt about the timing/dog etc….
Well eldest boy says to me next day…hey mom….did you see the dog I left up on your computer last night….?
I said….YOU left that site up? He said yes, I wanted you to see this dog….
I was bewildered…..I thought I had left it up……I knew I cut and pasted her info and was SURE I closed out the site…..
WE FOUND THE SAME DOG…….
Now….what are the chances of this……we hadn’t decided on a certain breed or mix, color or anything…..and out of 350K dogs listed on this site….we pull up the same dog on the same day.
I hadn’t told the kids I had been lurking around on the websites…..again, I didn’t want them to bug me…….relentlessly.
So…I think this is my sign…..
The shelter called today to tell me they received my application for adoption….and I was approved…..(nice to know I can still get approved for something!)
The shelter is located about 2.5 hours from us, BUT….they were going to take some dogs into a town about 1/2 hour away from us tomorrow am and they could pack up this dog if we wanted to meet and possibly adopt her, if all went well.

So…..here we go! You otta see the kids move…puppy proofing the house, cleaning up and setting rules out……where the shoes can be kept, how we are going to train her, fillng up a water bowl, washing the dog bed cover…..they are on a high!!!!
I told them, much to their shock, my only request was……they need to teach her to sing!!!!
I started cracking up AGAIN!!!! They think I’m nuts!
I will suggest we name the puppy Erin….EB…..see how that goes down with them…..
Erin Brockovich has been such a big ‘mentor’ for me, the past few years……..
So……thanks for inspiring me yesterday and look how it all worked out!
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 3:05pm
witsend says:

ErinB,
I think you will love having a shelter dog. Most of them seem to “know” that they have been given a second chance. And once they settle in become great pets.

I have always gotten my dogs in the past with the kids in mind. However once it really comes down to it, I am the one who falls hopelessly in love with the dog.

Good Luck
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 3:31pm
ErinBrock says:

Wits:
No doubt…..I think we are ready for the lovin.

I’ve only ever had shelter dogs too…..
BTW….the kids shot down erin…..they said….NO MOM….that’s you!

First in the running is
Chaimara….Kaimara……have NO idea why…..but universal so far….
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 3:44pm
heavenbound says:

I don’t know where to post this…and I really need to post or I will explode.

The p brought some of the money he owes me by the other night. I was alone. (like I didn’t know better) He tells me, again, that he loves me and will be coming home. He also tells me that he got internet and put up a profile, is how he met this girl. (I had asked him how he met this girl that had sent me copies of the txtng between them) He went to her. I have no doubt they did something and I can’t get the image out of my head. He has deleted me from his life, no pictures or anything. How could I have loved this thing?

He took something from me that he had no right to take. He told me that he didn’t care if I got someone else, why would he care he asked. Yet he is going to come home and he loves me?

I am so full of pain, I’ve done nothing but hide and cry since. How could he do this to me and just go on with life, enjoying it and not care what he has done? I know the answers but the images in my head and heart…it is hurting me so bad.

I feel so alone and so stupid. I don’t want him back but the knowledge that he doesn’t care is killing me. What? why?

I said too much to him and so he knows where I stand and how to hurt me.

I have no friends or anyone to talk to. I do the listening not the talking in my world. I have no voice, I’m not heard at all. No one cares. No one can or will help.

I’m just waiting to hear from him again and it scares me, it hurts me, and yet I’m so lonely I almost look forward to it???????

I want to see this profile of his…I don’t know how to find it though. How do I stop this pain, how do I get over wanting the truth? It’s not like the truth won’t hurt. Yet the lies are impossible to live with. Why does it even matter, I had been no contact (except concerning our child) for months?

Something is so wrong with me.

I’m so sorry…Please, please, please, it’s killing me. I just want the pain to stop. My heart is crushed.

Why is he doing this? Why ?
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:08pm
ErinBrock says:

Heaven:
BBBRRRREEEEAAAATTTHHHHHH!!!!!
You need to STOP……and regain your strength. YOU CAN DO THIS!!!
You need to see the road ahead and see the potholes….the mudpuddles and the rocks sliding off the cliff to be able to avoid the collision.
CRY, YELL, SCREAM…..hit your pillow…..but you need to get it out!
It’s the 1/2 way place……between fact and fiction….
It’s a HARD PAINFUL place to be….but necessary.
What your feeling is VERY NORMAL for those of us that have been ‘taken’.
It’s the grieving process…..
DO NOT GIVE UP…..YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.
Value yourself and love yourself.
Decide what YOU are worth…..
This is why n/c is so important…..you do not give them access to your emotions and they cant see the ‘cracks’ in your heart……to slither through and obliterate.
RULE #1-NO CONTACT
RULE #2- SAY NOTHING.

Talk to yourself in the mirror…..SEE YOUR PAIN, connect with it, identify with it…..then get angry….
Angry that he has taken from you, things you wouldn’t give knowing the kind of person he is.
Angry that you are feeling like this…..
And allow your anger to empower you into acting….in YOUR best interest.

YOU are in control of YOU!
Remember this…..

Your in my thoughts….I wish you strength for today!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:24pm
witsend says:

Heavenbound,
Sweetie he isn’t capable of love. It isn’t YOU. It isn’t that he can’t love you….He can’t love anyone. You ARE loveable.

You have to “seperate” this disorder he has and not taking what he says personal as if it was something wrong with you. Something is wrong with him.

He can’t give you the truth you seek. He isn’t capable of that either. These are NOT excuses for him. He will just lie and hurt you more. That is what he is capable of.

The only way he will stop playing the “game” with you is if you refuse to play. He plays the game off of your emotions because he doesn’t HAVE any. Your emotions are like the “airl” he needs to breath. He can’t have that “air” ANY other way unless you (or someone else) gives it to him. So he will go to great lengths to get this “air” and push every emotional button possible to get it until he accomplishes this.

The good news is if he can’t get it from you anymore he will go elsewhere and suck it from someone else.

There is not one sincere bone in his body, and not one sincere word that comes out of his mouth.
You deserve so much better. Please leep telling yourself that.

Look in the mirror and tell yourself. “I deserve so much more.” Write these words on “post its” all over your house. Tell yourself that every day if you have to. Because you DO deserve more.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:50pm
eileen says:

Heaven!
I’ve been there – same place, same feelings – I know the pain – the man has no heart, DON’T under any circumstance blame yourself or see the way he treats you as a reflection of you. It’s just the way he is – and trust me he’s not gonna treat anyone else better – I’ve been tormented like you now by pictures of my ex with his other gfs…until I realised he never felt anything for them EITHER…When you realise he’s not human and can’t be analysed/understood as such all those feelings you’re experiencing (jealousy, humiliation etc) will go away.
And it’s okay to hope he rings, as long as you don’t pick up the phone when he does…
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:54pm
pollyannanomore says:

Heavenbound … I know the feeling of no friends very well. When I left the P I had not a friend in the world I could contact and talk about things with. Please remember you have good friends here – we’re not in your real life but we all care about you and if we were near you would be over like a shot to make hot chocolate for you and cuddle you and dry your tears away.

I changed my mindset and rather than looking at what was missing in my life and feeling defective, I reminded myself that I am normal and he is not. I took a chance and met a few new people at the party. And one of them I took another chance on – I said ‘Hey I think you’re great – would you like to hook up for coffee sometime?’ To my utter surprise she said yes and we swapped numbers. We haven’t met up yet but the point is I made the effort and only the first approach was difficult. Other people don’t notice anything odd about us – it is the toxicity of the SPN that made us feel defective, unwanted and unfit for society. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH US THAT OTHER PEOPLE WILL NOTICE.

Yes we will still have our wounds and our dark hours, but other people don’t need to know about that till we’re sure we’re ready to share. You have nothing to feel ashamed about – he isolated you and made your life hell – you didn’t ask for it and now you are rebuilding your life after it. You can do it and only the first approach is hard.

Try looking over the contacts or aquaintances you already have – perhaps you can kindle a friendship with one of them? If you have some history it’s a lot easier. The SPNs wanted us isolated and now they are gone, it’s time to rejoin the human race again. This is also a move that will strengthen your resolve to remain NC with him – you will have independent people influencing your life and be better able to see his sickness for what it is. He’s banking on the fact you’re dependent on him for human contact and therefore weaker and more liable to let him back in. Making friendships is a crucial part of separating from him and remaining away from him. You need to build a little team around you that supports and nurtures you so you are defended from his attempts to lure you back. When he sees you are stronger he will back off – that is what has happened for me.

Is there a local group for parents in your area? That might be a good place to start or a playgroup that parents get involved in? I know it is scary, but this will seriously be your best defence against that slimesucker coming back.

Please believe me you have friends here – good friends from all around the world. And if anyone new questions your lack of friendships … well that’s easy to explain away – you just say several good friends have recently moved overseas so you are looking to make some new friends Once you make the first friendship you will wonder what you were worried about! The first is the hardest. And you will feel so much differently about the relationship once you are socialising again.

Try calling your local Citizen’s advice to find out what community groups there are and please share with your friends here how you go – I know you’ll do great! Any of us would come and spend the day with you if we could – we have understanding of one another deeper than people who haven’t been through this experience. You are a worthy woman who has much to offer in any form of relationship. I am finding that these few friendships I am forming are changing my outlook after the trust devastation caused by the P – they are literally healing me from the outside in as I work on the inside. They also stop me dwelling on my pain – you can’t zone off into painland when someone is pulling faces at you and making you laugh!

Sending you some hugs – I can so relate to what you say. And please instigate NC again – it is lonely at first but helps all of us regain our sanity and a firm standing in the world.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 5:08pm
lostingrief says:

erinbrock: you just rekindled something in me with your advice to heaven.
i’m so embedded in that anger and just stuck in it. i’m so dead inside, even though i’ve been very strong with NC for almost 17 months now. i can barely move. every bone, joint and tendon in my body hurts, i can barely walk because my legs and feet feel like lead. i’m always in physical pain. i’ve gained more than 50 lbs in that time, and i can’t stop eating. it is my only comfort. i get through work, but barely; i’m constantly exhausted. i feel as though i’ve just pitched a tent going into the ‘acceptance’ phase. i think about him too much, still. how i’m absolutely nothing to him after so many years of my devotion. i loathe him, hate him with a passion, would never speak with him again. but i still wish he’d call and tell me how stupid he was for doing what he did.
there is no validation in my life that i was worthy of the dream i had, and how the death of that dream has affected me. i’m strong; i’m weak. i hold my head high; i fall to pieces. i’m stuck in a place that is making me sick. my body has taken on the physical manifestation of the psychological terror.
i don’t know where to go from here. doctors can’t find anything wrong with me that would explain the pain. the emotional paralysis, i can understand.
we all try to be so strong here. i rarely hear that anyone is falling apart so far into NC. i don’t want him, i hate him, i’ve moved on emotionally, i know what he is. and i look forward and see more peace and a better life for me. BUT my physical being is immobile. deeply stalled.
so; psychiatrist, another MD, more acupuncture, another long walk?
i just remembered something:
he would never take a photo with me and him both in it, or allow me to take a photo of him.
and i allowed that to be okay.
that level of negation is unbelievable.
effing mutha!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:13pm
pollyannanomore says:

Lostingrief I can relate to the physical pain though I am not as far into NC as you are. I congratulate you heartily on making it that far! I hope I can be as strong as you.

This phrase spoke to me …

“there is no validation in my life that i was worthy of the dream i had, and how the death of that dream has affected me. i’m strong; i’m weak. i hold my head high; i fall to pieces. i’m stuck in a place that is making me sick. my body has taken on the physical manifestation of the psychological terror.”

What insight there – it was all just a beautiful dream and they made us think it was real. I feel such a fool and am so angry he gets to walk away with no consequences as if it never happened while I am dealing with the physical, the emotional and the psychological. It’s not fair. He should be locked up. Or should never have been born. They need to be removed from society.

I can also relate to the photos = I had the same thing happen to me which I thought was very weird. Never wanted pictures of the two of us together and would scowl if I took one of him.
Why did they do that? WHy?

I am sending you a hug – I feel crap today too!
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:26pm
eileen says:

Hey Lostingrief – got lots of pics of my ex-sociopath, and a few of the two of us together. Does that mean my sociopath was better than yours, or treated me better than yours treated you?… NO.
Relationships with sociopaths are not in the realm of normality…they make us lose focus and what we wouldn’t accept from someone normal we accept it from them. So don’t blame yourself for “allowing that to be okay” – it’s actually quite okay for a sociopath not to allow you to take pictures of him, it’s actually okay for that to happen in a relationship with a sociopath, since in such relationships NOTHING is normal.
Take care of yourself – really, that’s what matters.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:32pm
lostingrief says:

polly:
unbelievable! they gave me magnesium first and THEN vitamin D. i’ve been taking both as well! yes, pain and knots — in my arms and legs. vibrating in my limbs and pain.
everything you wrote resonated, and yes, they should have consequences. they walk away without a backward glance at the devastation they caused.
incredible!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:38pm
lostingrief says:

eileen:
good point. they all have their sick little peculiarities. just depends on their control issues.
you wrote in an earlier post that it was okay to want them to call. how so? i want mine to call and sure, i’d never pick up or speak to him, but for me, that’s not okay. just a reinforcement of how lonely i am, that no one has hugged me since he left. seems maybe our bodies hurt from being so totally neglected.
that is so messed up.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:42pm
eileen says:

Well, I mean it’s a normal reaction, so don’t beat yourself up over that. He worked hard to make you dependent on him. We all want justice, and we all feel we deserve at least a sincere apology. Unfortunately they have no capacity for remorse and their apologies wouldn’t be genuine at all. If he rang you he probably wouldn’t apologise. And if he did, he wouldn’t be sincere, he would be trying to get something from you. You should be PROUD that he’s not ringing you. It means one very important thing: that he finally understood that he can’t get anything from you. Sociopaths are convinced they can rule the world and manipulate people for ever. The fact that he’s not ringing you means that in spite of his grandiose sense of self, you have become one of those really unusual people that he can’t manipulate anymore. And even though sociopaths ususally can’t believe that (see the article on their “irrational optimism”) he finally had to admit that you’re out of his control forever. So well done, and be proud. From him, it’s a great and the only genuine compliment.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:54pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

lostingreif:

fibro hear too. came to me after a long time of depletion, chemical exposure, and a couple of nasty (hallucinating don’t ‘cha know!) flus.

but when i look back, I see also had a choice to make – that i still haven’t made and that is 15 years ago. I made a promise to become a teacher…and i have managed to not freakin’ do it. so, I have some splainin’ to do.

I lost a dream with the spath i tangeld with also. this is heart wrenching. ‘he’ showed me things I wasn’t even aware I ached for – pulled it all up and into the daylight – then faked ‘his’ death.
and it took me a very short bit to start to look for him – and a longer bit to find out who he really was.

but one of the first things i came to was that feeling like I would never be loved or cared for. and i mean ‘cared for’ literally. i have had injury and illness in the last few years that affected my sense of identity, robbed me of my business, through me into depression, and made me not want to try anymore on my own – hence the desire to be rescued came up – after a life of emotional independence, I wanted someone to take care of me. and he promised to. and never did. it was ALL about the spath. and in the end, it was way more about the spath than i could ever have imagined.

so, I don’t feel worthy of my dream or even getting my basic needs met, cause that is what life has been showing me. And I compromised and said, wtf, let’s go for the traditional idea of relationship – let’s throw in the towel – and i couldn’t even GET THAT. and believe me that was my damn failsafe and i didn’t even know it. I just was so tired and beaten, no toehold anywhere, keep scrabbling and taking more and more risks with jobs and moves, etc. cause there is so little where I am.

AND NONE OF IT F**KING PANNED OUT.

I think we short changed ourselves somewhere. And I think we have been lied to about the great american dream (it doesn’t exist anymore) of life liberty and freedom – you have to be well and not so poor to expereince freedom in northa america; and bought a story about families and what that collection of tricky b8stards is suppsed to be a bout.

it’s all a bunch of sh*t!!! The idea and the reality DON”T F*CKING MATCH!!

Same thing with the spaths – idea and reality don’t match.

doc wants me to look at drugs for anxiety – yup, will do – right about the time y’all look at and deeply consider what it’s like to be poor and sick, and alone. and give the RIGHT fucking help for THESE things. SO WE CAN STAND FOR OURSELVES FER F*CKS SAKE!

I have done dozens of things for the fibro. one thing that is very important for me is morphine. LOL. just kidding – at one time I wasn’t. What is important is love. and courage (which means we whine and feel alone and unappreciated AND we try the next thing that may help us to unwind the fibro.

And sometimes there is no love and i have to look to the trees and the sky to find it reflected back to me. I don’t know how i would have made it through this year without the trees and the sky.

Bowen has helped me ENORMOUSLY. a friend was doing her training and i have been one of her test cases. it has made ALL the difference to my neck – 2 years now, and it still is bad sometimes, but it DOENS’T SCARE ME ALL OF THE TIME NOW. And that shift is HUGE.

Yesterday – i heat a towel up in the ove, and a bean bag for my neck – and got into bed with the towel over me and listened to a PTSD CD i have by Bellaruth Naperstack. And it all calmed me and soothed me.

WE JUST KEEP GOING. trying, reaching out, next complimentary therapy, next day of energy, next week of fucked and swollen and head so sore and brain so fogged and WHERE did i put the morphine and it’s not right that i can’t afford more acupuncture….I know.

and by some miracle something changes and gets better – of the 2 dozen things we do – some little bit picks us up after YEARS, and we begin to function just a bit better, and that leads to more peace in our hearts cause we realize we really are who we were – we are not this hard hard space and thoughts in our heads – that is the illness and the concurrent depression, and for a day we feel a little warmth and space in our chests around or hearts……….and then we get a draft or get caught i the cold, or walk into a room where there is too much perfume, but we have to see the doctor or go to that interview….and we slide back again. and it is fucking humilating. AND NO ONE HOLDS US AND TELLS US THAT IT ISN’T *US* – IT’S A DISEASE IN A DISEASED SOCIAL SYSTEM.

AND SO IS THE SPATH. We might be predisposed, but it’s the luck of the draw baby AND IT IS EVIL.

What reall began to break it for me was 2 weeks: bieng in the hot of the south of spain, and having sex for the first time in 18 years, and doing a buddhist retreat on concious dying…meditating for 4 days sending my energy out of the central energy channel in my body. Don’t know which and what – all those thing in 2 weeks – and the fibro and depression started to crack.

I too am an emotional eater. Went to OA 12 step for a long time. Helped A LOt. left because of a predatorry pair in the group – I wasn’t sticking around for that – it was spiritually abusive- one of the hardest things i ever did was leave OA. I have tried to go back. Canna do it. But i think there is great value there – just don’t listen to that sh*t that says you are forever tied to it. it is manipulative and sets people up for failure. Women for sobriety is very cool – but i don’t think htye have branched into food the way 12 step has.

When the slippery soaped up plastic rug i was standing on was pulled out from under my feet in the last few months, I started to eat with a vengence. A lot of it is about islolation for me. don’t know how to deal with this yet – but I do get out (i work from home) a couple of times a week and do things. I don’t have much money, so it is very low key – BUT playing scrabble with a friend in a cafe reminds me that something else exists beyond the sh*t of this time. This stuff is hard for me – the food thing. VERY triggered by being devalued.

take care and find yourself some love – hug a tree. and un huh i am completely serious.

peace sista,
one step
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 7:06pm
heavenbound says:

You are all truly the best!

Erin,
I took your advice. I took a deep breath. Then a long bath and vented. I really am loosing it. I don’t feel normal at all so thank you for telling me this is normal. I knew I had broke the first two rules and I’ve really been beating myself up, but then he punished me enough for that. Thank you for passing some of your strength over to me through your post.

Witsend,
Thank you for saying it isn’t me…that has really been eating me up. I’ve tried to tell myself that but it works so much better when someone else cares enough to tell me. His ways make me feel like I am so unlovable. It feels like it’s me.

I have told myself a thousand times that he isn’t capable of love and truth, but you saying it has helped that unbearable pain in my chest and I can’t tell you what a relief that is.

You said that when he couldn’t get it from me anymore he would go elsewhere…maybe that’s why he treated me like the trash that had done been hauled away. (all these months until now)

Eileen,
You give me hope that there is a way for these feelings to go away. Now if I can except that he is not human. I really thought I had but now I guess I was just hiding somewhere in neutral. This really sucks to realize that I have not grown at all in all these months. Thank you for saying that it’s ok to want him to call as long as I don’t answer…I felt so awful for feeling that way that it helps to be told it’s ok.

Pollyannanomore,
Telling me that you’d all come over and make hot chocolate and cuddle me and dry my tears, really was the next best thing to it actually happening!

I have been so stuck with not knowing how to get back into life and being so scared of it that I just couldn’t. Your suggestions and encouragement has really gave me the thought that maybe I can get out there and make some touchable friends…although I don’t think anyone could replace you all here and give me the feeling you each have tonight!

You all have such wonderful qualities and to be able to give someone like myself direction is a wonderful ability, I’m not so good at myself.

Lostingrief,
I have pain all over and suffer physically as you talk, they told me it was fibro, whatever it is , it seems that a lot of us suffer from this constant overall pain and knots and it really isn’t fair that they get to walk away guilt free, pain free, without a glance backwards. The lack of validation really is a horrible thing, I have had a hard time with this and loosing my dreams and time. I feel like you do with being strong and then weak, etc…
I know what you mean about being hugged, it really adds to the loneliness. I’m so sorry for your suffering.

Thank you for being my friends. Thank you for taking the time. Every single one of you have helped me in ways that you’ll never know. I want you each to know that not one word was waisted, each word has helped me and I can’t thank you enough.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 7:31pm
lostingrief says:

eileen:
thanks for your kind words. when he left i said to him; ‘you’re so far beneath me, i can’t even see you anymore!’ he looked stunned, then got furious and screamed back; ‘i’ll have a vendetta against you forever!’ he knew that i had found out the TRUE him.

one step:
you hit about 20 nerves at a time here. i have to really absorb this.
i’m into photography (one of the very few things i still do and enjoy; when my feet don’t hurt too much to get outside), and most of my photos are of trees and sky and flowers. they are the things that make me feel human now; other humans, i’m just afraid of them deep inside.
i, too, am completely isolated except for my job as a teacher, which is so challenging it’s all i can do to get out of there standing up. i choose to be isolated; too fat, too ugly to be out in public. he took SO much of my self-esteem and self-worth. i work hard to reclaim it, and HELL YEAH, i wish i could afford acupuncture every week!
many of the things you wrote tore through me with their truth. sometimes, it’s too much to absorb any more.

heaven:
he’s NOT human. none of them are. they are literally some pod-creatures all borne of some hellish blob. i refuse to believe the ex is human. he is the coldest, sickest, slickest, most seductive thing that exists. and i hope i never come within a mile of another one of these creatures. one time, he was laying in my lap, and he looked up at me and i was stunned: he looked like a mythological creature … a satyr i decided later. it was one of the spookiest moments of my life. his appearance gives him a lot of power over women, right down to the strategically-placed scars which i just heard on the news last night, ”when placed so that they give an appearance of toughness, are, in the short term, an aphrodisiac for women.’
god(dess) help us all!

you have all given me hope that what i am experiencing physically is truly the fallout from the spiritual terrorism we have all experienced. i will work harder to take care of myself, and i send blessings and light to all of you, that you do the same. we must move through the myst of sulfur and soot, back into the presence of our truth and our power.
2010.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 8:36pm
7stepstoheaven says:

hOLY COW!! the anger, the feeling of being afraid to move, bending over backward for people who DO NOT CARE and will turn the knife in your belly if they get the chance. Erin and pollyanna our mothers have much in common. I actually am very close to my mother but she will not EVER stand up for me or be willing to hear about my pain and anger. It is far too late now, she is 77 years old and has not been very introspective or self-aware , although she will readily admit making mistakes in picking my father who beat her and then my stepfather who did all the other VERY Sociopathic cheating and lies and laziness and stealing and sexual abuse of my youngest sister.

These threads are just exhausting to read when you are exhausted to begin with – but this is where I am in so many ways – Kathleen and Erin and pollyana – the BIGGEST DEAL is having to face your entire belief system based in your dysfunctional family of origin. I think for some of us maybe we are just too nice and people take advantage, but for many of us we are damaged by the people who raised us and we just give and give without expecting good behaviour or trustworthiness or even kindness or reciprocation of our loving feelings from TOO MANY people not only in our own families but others we think of as friends.

Amber, when you said your younger sister ROLLED HER EYES at your pain it just is exactly how I have been treated by the sister I was closest too. We had a good relationship until she moved to where my younger P sister lives, and the younger P manipulated her to isolate and abandon our relationship, and I could not understand what the hell happened. It was crazy what happened – my younger sister was an alcoholic who recovered and went on and has a career and family – but she knew that she could NOT CONTROL me. So she manipulated my other sister to drop me from their lives. I was not so surprised at my P-sister’s behaviour, but what shocked me was my closest sister falling in line and betraying me like that.

As a result of this I have not seen my niece or 3 nephews in 5 YEARS! I was a doting aunt and I have no other children. I lived in another state and would always travel to see them, before I became ill and disabled for the last ten years. My youngest sister never once visited me in 20 YEARS, although I had been to visit her family and children also. One day she lost it on a phone conversation with me, and EVERYTHING changed. I am having an ordinary conversation with her when she suddenly goes into a rage and hangs up on me. I had seen THE MASK DROP, and I was at first bewildered and apologetic, wondering what I had done. The next thing I knew she sent me an email that sounded icy and robotic – saying “that since I had become an ALCOHOLIC who slurred my voice on the phone she and her husband decided they could have no more contact with me until I cleaned myself up.” huh???!!!! It was THE PROJECTION OF HER OWN PROBLEM ONTO ME, I who never have more than an occasional beer or glass of wine.
I spent a long and fruitless time trying to explain the error of her logic and conclusions, which was just her way of gaslighting me since she knew I would never submit to her manipulation.

My other sister said that the p-sister had CONVINCED her that I had a problem and therefore could not be allowed to visit them or see my niece and nephews anymore. I said to her – HOW COULD YOU BELIEVE THIS?? you know it’s not true! This woman is a psych-nurse for pete’s sake!! But my younger sister is the PSYCHIATRIST, so she must KNOW BETTER!!! A good person can be persuaded that BLACK IS WHITE by a cunning spath.

This is a long-term pattern with her. She shunned my mother FOR TEN YEARS, but recently DECIDED that she COULD ACCEPT my mom back into her life. My mother was practically dying and in the hospital for six months and my P-sister did not even call or visit her ONCE!

BUT NOW – after she recently got divorced – she DECIDED to FORGIVE my mother and ALLOW her back into her life.

EXCUSE ME WHILE I BARF UP THE XMAS DINNER I DIDN’T HAVE!

It is bad enough when you have to get rid of a significant other who has damaged your trust, your finances, and possibly your health and mental well-being. But when you have to do that with your entire family, it is just TOO MUCH! And I know that is the case with many here. I have been trying to be the bigger person while I let them all bleed me to death. After coming to LF I more and more realize that THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT REDEEMABLE, even if they are my family. I do not have to love people who treat me badly – as my mother taught me to do from birth. It just makes me have to repeat being the victim over and over again and I will not take it any more. This XMAS was THE LAST STRAW!

Amber – as your younger sister is only 24 years old, part of her behaviour may just be the arrogance of youth. Give her time. I remember being a bit selfish myself at that age. HOWEVER, if her behaviour and attitude don’t change over time, she is just an a-hole who doesn’t care about or value you, or that you were her surrogate mother. The behavior of my siblings is just ARROGANT and unbelievable, while my mother wants to pretend that we are all one big happy family.

I love them and miss them – my younger sister and brother are very charming charismatic funny people who appear to be kind and concerned and loving – they are both P’s and unredeemable.

I am 53, and the youngest, my brother, just turned 40. We all just found out he was still married to the woman he left FOUR YEARS AGO. She is a psycho-spath-con-user nasty person, and we were all so helpful to him to get him out of that situation. I lent him money which he always tells me (when he sees me) that he will pay me back. He is a liar – he lived with another woman for 1 1/2 years without EVER telling her he had not bothered to get divorced from his psycho wife. We all recently met his new girlfriend when he came to our home town (where my mother lives and I now live). Then my mother found out a month ago THAT HE WAS STILL MARRIED TO THE PSYCHO and had not told his new girlfriend. I said, Mom, that’s it, he is making us all lie to her because we know and she doesn’t!

The new girldfriend only found out about the wife, because the wife hacked into my brother’s FB account and sent her a nasty letter. Nice, huh? As I found out on earlier visits to this site, he is going to ruin the new career he has begun in the army 3 years ago. These wonderful people all spent XMAS together. I was not invited or received so much as a phone call or passing gift. I am so sick of this behavior, and telling my mother that there is no excuse for these people to behave this way. She did raise us to have manners, not mistreat anyone, and to be honest. Apparently it didn’t take. My youngest brother is the stepfather’s son. My mother has been aware from the death of that relationship that he was a classic sociopath. and we have been raised to understand what that is and how they behave. He pretty much abandoned his own son and sexually abused my youngest sister. For years I have tried to be compassionate and understanding but now I am just sick of this behavior. I have always been loving and supportive and friendly and nice blah blah blah, but I am tired of getting the “chit” put back up my ass.

Kathleen, I think you are very good to say that you can only train people to treat you better, but I have tried to undo this for the past five years. I have been vocal to everyone in my family how this behavior doesn’t even make sense. My mother would like to pretend everything is fine – she’s done that from childhood. But some people are just toxic. I love my mother, both my sisters and my younger brother – I was the oldest child and was put in the position of taking care of them all when we grew up, so that is always in me. My mother just makes excuses for people and looks the other way. I am realizing that I have had far too much compassion for these people who have just been horrible to me. It cannot be fixed, regardless of what I do or don’t do. They will just stand back and call me a sucker.

Love is what people do, not what they say. Pollyana I can relate to so much in my childhood is lost in some blur I have no memory of – my sister who is 2 years younger than I am remembers many things that I do not. I have had years and years of therapy and self-help books and really trying to understand what the hell went on in my childhood, but I have only ever had ONE memory come back about anything negative. My last therapist of over 3 years was absolutely convinced that I had been sexually abused, but I really have no idea. I think living with my father’s violence and my mother’s denial were probably enough. She could never deal with me having sadness or anger of any kind without going into a rage herself or giving me the silent treatment while she would slam doors all over the house. Even after my father was killed in an auto accident (I was seven) I was not allowed to grieve or process those feelings at all. She pretended like he had never existed. I remember crying myself to sleep at night as quietly as possible because she could not accept any display of emotion from me.

I really have told myself more than once in the past few years that I shouldn’t even miss spending time with these people. And the LF stories have made me finally wake up and smell the coffee – these people will not ever change, and behave the way a family should. My therapist told me 2 years ago that when I planned to move back home near mom that I would need help from my family. I began speaking to my closest sister, but when I brought up the fact that we could not repair our relationship unless she stopped this delusion that my younger sister had manipulated her into accepting (the result of which estranged me from seeing my nieces and nephews) she said dismissively “Oh, that?” ROLLING EYES ON THE END OF THE PHONE LINE. I just said you know this is just not going to work. I called my therapist IMMEDIATELY and told her NOT to discuss anything with my sister anymore because I cannot TRUST her. I had to move without any help from my family. I have been back in my hometown now for TWO YEARS expecting some kind of reconciliation, but it has never happened. SHAME ON THEM!

I am too good of a person to let them continue to abuse me this way. I am honest and they cannot deal with that.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 8:40pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

lostingrief: PHOTOG, ME TOO!!! my camera is broken, unfixable – take epics, take pics! OF TREES AND SKY AND of isolated you. take pics of isolated you so you CAN SEE YOU!

YOU’RE THERE. i KNOW YOU ARE!

Take pics of too ugly too fat idea and see you and have COMPASSION for girl so duped, so devalued she says bad words to herself about her so precious heart!

AND YOU, MY DEAR DESERVE A 5 FREAKING GOLD STARS FOR MAKIN’ IT TO SCHOOL TO TEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Many of the women i know who have fibro and MCS are teachers – sick buildings, stressful jobs that require lots of compassion and few institutional resources to be brought to bear.
They started this group to heal themselves: http://www.healthpursuitsgroup.com/

bye
one step
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:07pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

LIG: wow, SULFUR AND SOOT – i’m taking that one!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:15pm
pollyannanomore says:

Lostingrief – wow – you are digging deep here – look after yourself while you do it. It’s really taxing eh? You’ve hit the nail on the head though – it all stems from the dysfunctional family upbringing – we never had a chance with the SPNs – we were fully primed and ready to be exploited. And yes to go back all the way to the beginning and develop new systems that serve us better is extremely painful but ultimately what we have to do. Isn’t it funny that we intuitively know that? We in our bodies know what we have to do to get better from these experiences and we can see why they happened and what has to change. So the SPNs were really messengers or teachers for us. I hope this contributes to our cushy retirement in the never never afterlife! We definitely deserve it!

HEAVENBOUND … I am glad you’re gathering strength – I know how scary it is to get back into life, but it’s wonderful once you take the first step! And I really would make you hot chocolate – think that is what is best to salve the soul sometimes – a nice steamy mug with froth on top and lots of melty marshmallows!

To the person who said they hadn’t been hugged in ages … I can so relate to that. I have started giving my friends BIG hugs

I am so blessed to have found you ladies (and men). I don’t know what I would have done without your advice, love, support and encouragement – I was in an awful state before coming here. And now things are progressing by leaps and bounds. I know we all have our bad days but there is more than enough love travelling the information highway from the people here to lift one another out of it. Thankyou so much for all your love – there is really no other word for it. For people who have never met me in real life, I feel like you are real friends who actually give a damn about each other and me. I really hope we all get to meet some day

(excuse me – know we’re all having financial dramas and hangover problems from the Spath b**tards but I am having a huge warm fuzzy moment!)
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:23pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

pollyanannomore check this:
http://www.healthpursuitsgroup.com/

Lostingrief: have you read the BETRAYAL BOND? I got it from the library – it’s awesome.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:32pm
pollyannanomore says:

I am one step ahead of you one step! I had already right clicked and opened it in a new tab – I’m just having too much fun today hopping from post to post having finally discovered the magic time of the day when you all post! Finally nice to be part of a real time conversation lol
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:39pm
eileen says:

Unfortunately that magic time is waaaaay past my bedtime, so good night, or good morning/afternoon everybody!
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:42pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

pollyanannomore: how iz it possible zat you are wun step ahead of wun step!
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:42pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

goodnight eileen!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:43pm
lostingrief says:

vit D was at 9! no kidding. i do take the D3, calcium in my multi. good days. bad days.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:06pm
7stepstoheaven says:

Dear one_step_at_a_time says and lostingreif – Friends and Fibro Sufferers –

I know from spending some time here that pollyanna has fibro and now I learn that both of you also have this, and I have had fibro for 20 years and have been very disabled for the last ten years. I was working for ten years and then got severe endometriosis and had years of surgeries and abdominal pain so I probably could have worked longer if I only had the fibro.

I have been through every kind of treatment and doctor and therapy you can imagine. I first became ill after divorcing my ex-husband who I had met in college. I left him because he became a deadbeat drug-addicted do-nothing. Being the can-do person I am, I spent YEARS bending over backward and giving him every chance when he deserved nothing from me.

I had to live with my mother the first two years, but I had a very kind doctor who believed me, when the diagnosis was new and was still called fibrositis. I think it happens when we are running on empty for two long, and give too much without expecting much in return. I personally feel that part of it has to do with growing up in an abusive environment, and having a whole lot of frustration and repressed anger, which can also set us up for an abusive relationship. I do not mean that it is just due to these factors, but that STRESS can trigger illnesses that we may already be susceptible to. Doctors are starting to realize that there are some genetic defects that contribute to this illness. The latest research, just saw this last night:

http://www.researchchannel.org.....mp;fID=345

I was able to recover enough that I had a good and rewarding career for the next ten years. I would advise you to try to keep exercising and not to take anxiety or pain pills, but do get massages or physical therapy and learn how to do guided imagery and relaxation, which helped me a lot. Also therapy if and when you can afford it. My original doctor (rheumatologist) was and is a very wise man, and he had noticed that patients with fibro who STAYED in unhappy, unhealthy situations did not get better. He told me this 20 years ago.

I do have to take some pain meds now but I would not take them if I did not have to. I am very unhappy with my family situation and that is not helping – which is part of the reason I am here at LF, because I need to make some positive changes in my life. The other thing that I would tell you is BE VERY CAREFUL in choosing your health care provider. There are still people who believe that it is not a disease, and that you are just neurotic or have a mental problem. If anyone is UNKIND or judgemental when you go to them for medical care walk out the door as fast as you can because they will not help you or believe that you are in pain. Even Social Security did not grant me disability for EIGHT YEARS because of a corrupt system. My lawyer was outraged – they had decided to IGNORE the medical evidence of THEIR OWN DOCTORS. You do not deserve to be treated this way.

I was fortunate that I had disability insurance and a retirement fund at the job where I worked for seven years. Don’t give up your dream because you can get better. And do not put up with people who don’t believe you or think that you are malingering in some way. It was VERY DIFFICULT to renew my career but I am happy that I did. I basically had to put up with a large amount of pain but I LEARNED NOT TO tell people at work how bad I felt. Sometimes I would miss work with a back spasm, so I had a “back problem.” Many people complain about trivial things and I wanted to be taken seriously and not to be labeled as a whiner and complainer. Most people will not GET it. But find your support system and lean on those you can. No point in unburdening your difficulties on deaf ears or trying to explain a very difficult medical problem to people who just want to know how many sick days you will take. I did well at my job because I had a positive attitude, not because I worked more hours than the next person. I was very fortunate and I can hope this will be the case for you also. If you want something bad enough you can make it, so don’t give up your dreams.

I went to a neurologist only last week and he was a complete ASSHOLE. I have been through too much to be condescended to in this way. Even family members have told me that I “just need to get off the pain pills.” They do not know what they are talking about. I worked without any pain meds for years, but certain meds can help, like antideppressants and gabapentin. Find support from people who know and understand. It is very tough and you will have the strength to do what is necessary if you do what you love. You are already here and among people who are very supportive. You have made a positive choice already that you deserve to not be treated badly or you would not be here.

If I can help at all I will be glad to do it. It has been a very big learning curve, but hey life is one big learning curve. When I moved back home, I was able to go back to the same KIND DOCTOR who treated me with so much compassion 20 years ago. This was such a relief to me. Going to any new doctor can be very traumatic if they are not supportive.

It has been very hard for me to get out and do very much, even with the few friends who are still there after 20 years away. But I have found some very special places online and LF is one of them. This is more REAL LIFE to me than some people I have had F2F relationships with, because people here are genuine and kind and KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

And OXY ALWAYS makes me laugh and lord knows I feel so much better when I laugh!!! I have gone back over a few today and laughed out loud with some of the sillyness that jumps out.

Y’all make me laugh and y’all make me cry, you let me vent, and you speak TRUTHFULLY and HONESTLY. You could not expect any more from a best friend… Thank goodness for the REAL PEOPLE that I have found here.
Keep your EYZ on the PRIZE!
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:08pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

7 steps:

(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:14pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

damn ting won’t let me do more than TWO smiley faces….grumble grumble…defective software..grumble…..

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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:15pm
pollyannanomore says:

One step = that just rolled off the tongue and fingers lol

Lostingrief – that was dangerously low – have they scanned your bones?

Some good advice there to select healthcare providers carefully and don’t put up with condescension – you are paying for their opinion of your condition – not for attitude! I have encountered some incredibly arrogant specialists and I just don’t go back. I have to pay for everything myself so I can pick and choose who I go to.

I am now looking into alkaline eating – I ate raw for a year and that didn’t give much improvement at all.

I absolutely agree with your sentiments about this community – it’s really great
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:42pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

pollyannanomore – wish we’d gotten in to this BEFORE christmas…you’ve got a good start of a fibro 12 days of Christmas there!

I like that: paying for opinion, not attitude.

I am quite str8t with the cognitive guy i am seeing – no, I won’t go and have the anxiety disorder evaluated unless they are working within a paradigm which considers multiple chemical sensitivities. period. he is suuuuuch an M.D. (no offense if you are out there libelle!) I also refuse to be drugged because i am poor and sick. f*ck you!

he did tell me that their is some new research that says that chronic fatigue is a form of leukemia. Uh huh. And I believe that cancer is a virus. Everything is genetics and circumstances – bio-chemical and bio-mechanical.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:57pm
imfree says:

Hi! Everybody, thank you, I am new to this post…and I just want to say that once you have been hooked by a psycho,
You need to find a way to disengage, the problem is not you, it’s them, they are incapable of loving anyone, they do not know how to love. Sure, it sucks, being taken, and you feel so angry, and so hurt, and lost, but you know what…it’s ok
You have to find a way to break free, these people are evil, they are Demons, or Vampires sucking out your life. You have no life, while they hold on tight.
For those of u who have health issues, I am a Dr. in alternative medicine, Acupuncture, vitamins, mineral supplements, homeopathic remedies, healthy food, and Creative visualization helps alot, you can create what ever you want. Praying is also very good, Brings peace.
Keep a journal write down something positive about yourself and every day
stand in front of a mirror and read your comment to yourself
helps bring up your self esteem, self worth, helps you feel good about you.
Psychos don’t care about you, they only care about themselves, and what they can take from you. There is no life
for you with a psycho, they are extremely dangerous, and after they have ruined your life, financially, mentally, physically, threatened, harrassed, and stalked you, once you fight back, they deny ever abusing you, and they become the victim. Run, and don’t look back, the best thing that can happen to anyone caught in a psychos web, is that they find someone new. Let Go…..as hard as it may seem, as lost, and lonely as you may feel, as your world falls apart… thank God
you are still alive…it gets worse, if you continue to hold on.

Dogs and cats are wonderful little beings, especially when the are rescued from shelters, they are greatful, and loving, and
strive to please you, all my animals have been from rescues,in fact I have a sweet black poodle I rescued from Utah, and I’m in Miami, he is the best,
it was meant to be, the rescuer was coming down on vacation
and she brought him down.
Ladies we are united we all share a common problem,
and thanks to all of you we can learn, we can grow, we can
heal, There is Life after a Psycho…..
Happy New Year, may it be peaceful and loving, let Go and Let God, Smile, Believe you are worth it.

Thank you
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 12:14am
pollyannanomore says:

Welcome Im free – there are a few of us on this blog that have untreatable illnesses – we are just debating whether or not they were caused by the stress of being in a pathological relationship or not So I am sure you will be extra specially welcomed with your knowledge!

You’ve had a tangle with a psychopath too I take it? Dogs and cats are indeed incredibly healing and remind us life is short – love hard (not psychos obviously though!)
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 12:56am
imfree says:

Polly, what I know about RA, is that it is an auto immune disorder, actually antibiotics is not the best way, what antibiotics do is they mask the problem, so that it appears that
you become symptom free, but in reality it doesn’t go away
it hides and comes back out.
Why don’t u check out mushrooms, reishi, ganoderma,
shitake,maitake, very good to enhance immune system, also
you have to look at your body holistically, mind, body and spirit, they are all connected, acupuncture is very good, chinese herbs are also very good, homeopathic remedies,
diet is impt in chinese medicine you are looking at a phlegm problem, that can be hot or cold, why dont u look at your tongue, and describe it for me, let me know if you have a coating what color, where the front the back the middle, is your tongue thin or wide with ridges on the side, and I’ll get back to you.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 1:31am
geminigirl says:

pollyanna no more,
“On the 12th day of xmas, my
spath love gave to me,
1 rolfing master
2rheuma tologists
3 masseuses
4 Physiotherapists,
5 ortho surgeons
6 neurosurgeons
7 chiropractors
8 reiki masters
9alternative therapists
10 past life healers
11rebirthers
and a partridge in a pear Tree!
Sorry, Polly, I couldnt resist it! {{HUGS!!!}}} Gem.XX
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 2:40am
pollyannanomore says:

Thanks imfree, but I don’t have RA – I have a colleague who does though!
Thanks for your care imfree – that was really nice of you to offer me information.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 2:53am
ErinBrock says:

FIBRO sufferers:
Hi guys, there is an institute I recently read about, not sure if you have receieved this info…..not sure how ‘global’ this news has been……..Check out the link below.
It’ will give you info on the peterson institute which has made headways on this topic of fibromyalga and Chronic fatigue…..
Hope this helps someone…..
BE WELL!

http://www.rgj.com/article/200.....-treatment
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 3:04am
pollyannanomore says:

Wow – no had not read that! Eeek – wonder how long till tests and treatment – could be a long way away. Wonder if antivirals might work then aciclovir?? that stops viruses replicating. That means I caught it – so it’s an std??? Maybe? Wow … still could be all those other things too and could just be a correlation – won’t get my hopes up too high just yet!

Thanks for sharing EB
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 3:51am
pollyannanomore says:

To fellow sufferers please check out this site about the virus and put yourself on the map – the blog author is looking to see if there are any ‘hot spots’ in the world.

It looks like it is blood bourne and those affected are advised not to donate blood at this time. Already my memory has isolated the likely candidate for infection

Well that knocks all previous theories out of the water!
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 4:29am
lostingrief says:

polly:
no bone scan. i friggin’ hate doctors.
: )
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 8:58am
Stayingsane says:

Hi to Imfree

It’s very interesting what you say about the illness hiding out but not actually being dealt with, when “dealt with” by anti biotic.
I have had a mild chest infection which I fought for ages and then I said to hell and it went with anti biotics. I know for a fact it has gone back into hiding as it goes too quick. also it comes back as if deeper and down further as if it has been repressed, not dealt with at all. I sense it is actually an illness that feels in a strange way to be healing and linked to the experience with the P brain.
could it be it’s my identity, my true inner self thats undergoing a transformation from shallow to deep connection. That these illnesses are not in fact life threatening but life saving. Just a thought…my chest infection will be back, I get a rash on the skin, dry cough, sore throat and huge glands and temperature.

Hey this toxic poison had to go somewhere….better to be spewed out on the lovefraud blog than ending up as illness!!!

So on that note I’m giving myself permission to voice a message to the P brain for 2010 (please visualize me in a helicopter flying low outside his window) glass of champagne in one hand and hand grenade in other, I lightly toss it in his direction to land by his feet, he looks at me stunned, I shout loudly so he hears me clearly GO STRAIGHT TO HELL MORON!!!!
oh yes! that feels better…..for now

And maybe this fantasy is too violent for me. I have just watched DISTRICT 9…. what a movie.
I felt that adrenalin rush I had in my nightmares after the P experience nearly all the way through it…and the only way was to fight back all guns blazing and take the psychos out!

And I used to be such a nice woman……
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:30am
7stepstoheaven says:

Pollyanna you said this:

“I am imposing boundaries with my own mother and holding my own when things come up that she doesn’t want to discuss now. I also point out to her when she invalidates me and that if I did that to her pain it would be world war three. Little steps and I am very careful not to exhaust myself by being too long in her company. I have to acknowledge though that her encounter with my father was very much like what I experienced with the P – lies, let downs, broken promises, emotional abuse etc. She didn’t have the tools to help herself though – there was no community like this back then. So she covered up the scars and kept on marching. The weird thing is, my process is helping her to look back at her own history and start pulling off the scabs to finally let the pus out.”
———————–

There have been times in my life when contact with my mother was so negative that I just had to take a break. My boundaries were non-existent with her – the second she complained about anything I would instantaneously have a cramp like a fist to the gut. If she had a problem and wanted me to solve it for her AND I SAID NO, she would rage at me and guilt me and I would get really upset, especially if there was no way I could do what she wanted. At the same time she can be very loving and kind and do nice things for people. I can now see alot of her behavior as PTSD and TRAUMA related. Thank god she has mellowed out since she retired, and since she is the only family member I can talk to she can be a comfort to me. I think she has finally learned that her rages are not going to get the best results!

The other thing is that, like you, my mother has information and knowledge I need for my recovery, and I know that getting these things out must be healing to her also. When I became disabled 10 years ago she finally began talking to me about the abuse she put up with from my P father and my P stepfather. This woman has been through some bad chit. Now that she has stopped inflicting her rage and pain on me I have a lot more compassion for what she has been through. She is also honest with me, and will talk about the horrific things both these men did to her. It helps us both get closure.

It’s funny because all the P’s I am trying to heal from were in my family in the past or present, not a romantic relationship. But my addictiveness to relationships that have sapped the life out of me causes a lot of the same problems. I KNOW that I have a tendency to be attracted to charismatic exciting P’s, and ordinary good guys are boring to me. Also I need to deal with the crippling anxiety I feel when a man is attractive to me – a post Kathleen says about the AGE of her emotions (that they are actually emotions coming back from when she was a child) is making sense to me – this anxious reaction is probably because my father was a terrifying person from the time I was an infant.
This makes sense to me now in a gut kind of way. Knowing things intellectually just doesn’t have the same effect as that flash of insight you feel in your gut. That level of anxiety makes no sense to you because it is the reaction a helpless child would feel, and not the reaction of an emotionally healthy adult.

I still have to watch my mom’s passive-aggressive behaviour with the rest of my sorry family – she tells them my business at times when they have no right to this information without talking to me. I will have to tell this to her AGAIN now that she is back from her visit with them. And I really do not want to hear about what a good time they had without me, since I used to be included in those good times. She can really be like a child sometimes – “Oh and then your sister made this delicious thing” Good grief I do not want to know. She just does not realize that this causes me pain, and that my family KNOWS they are causing me pain because I am left out. The deliberate cruelty is just unbelievable sometimes.

“I told X Y and Z that your roommate was stealing your pain meds.” Oh, great! Now that I realize that the fewer people know what I take the better. (Get a lock box for your pain meds, people! I did not for many months because I thought I was miscounting – I just could not believe that my roommate -who was very sympathetic about my grievous pain and suffering, was actually CAUSING a lot of my pain and suffering when I did not have enough meds until the end of the month – this has really caused much of my most recent meltdown because I thought I was in a safe place and had a FRIEND). Now her concern and friendliness are just PHONY to me and I don’t even want to speak to her. The bizarre thing about this to me is even though I know it is true beyond doubt she still fools me. It’s as if she still believes that we have a friendship and doesn’t even know what she is doing to me. Again, bizarre behavior I cannot understand. Oxy your posts about the piss tests were very enlightening to me – catheterizing a helpless infant to get clean urine for a drug test is just UNFATHOMABLE to me. Is this something that only a sociopath would do?

In spite of all these obstacles my mom and I are very much alike and like a lot of the same things, and enjoy time spent together. It is precious to me because I really believe that when she passes I will have no family anymore.

She said something to me recently that was very validating. In another post above I talk about my younger P sister manipulating and marginalizing me out of the family because she decided that I was an Alcoholic. It wasn’t true and it was actually a crazy thing for her to say, since she is the famiily member who is a recovered alcoholic and we certainly didn’t decide to SHUN her because of it! We were always very supportive and sympathetic to her. I now understand that she tested me over some time, telling me lies about things between her and my mom that I KNEW were lies at the time and just said nothing when she had these “heart to hearts” with me. I would listen, saying nothing, and not judging her but at the same time I didn’t AGREE with her and show her that she was pulling the wool over my eyes. At the time I just thought she was terribly misguided and hurt and possibly being manipulated and lied to by her own husband. I thought it was sad that she believed these lies. I thought when she comes to a point in her recovery she will understand that these things are not true, and that could take a long time. I certainly did not want to hurt her by pointing out her error in thinking these things – and INSTINCTIVELY I knew that it would be DANGEROUS to contradict her. How did I know that?

Now I understand that her rage and marginalization of my place in the family were the only way she had of controlling me, since I was not going to buy into the lies. I KNEW that this is what happened, but I still did not understand her behavior until I came here to the LF site and began truly understanding the reasons behind the crazy behavior and the seemingly counterproductive lies and manipulation. I will no longer expect her to suddenly become remorseful and sorry at treating her own sister this way. She was envious of the place I had in the family and my close relationship with my other sister. I can look back now and see it all happening when I think about conversations we have had and how she reacted to them.

It really is difficult to believe the cold hard truth about how these people operate. I did not want to believe it and I still loved my sister and felt that she just wasn’t ready to deal with her pain from the sexual abuse. I felt that her anger and bitterness toward my mom was because she was not able to deal directly with the fact that my stepfather was the person who did this terrible thing to her. Now I am starting to see that the abuse, control and manipulation that was done to her is how she learned to interact with the world.

I was having a conversation with my mom a few weeks ago, and my mom said “You know, when P-sister had a mental breakdown (age 19) and we checked her into the psych ward she told all of her doctors and counselors THAT I WAS A COCAINE ABUSER.”

BINGO!!!! When she is cornered she will use PROJECTION as a means of control and manipulation. My mom had worked in the hospital and medical community for many years and she told the truth and they believed her. Even though probably 20 years went by between her doing this to my mother and then doing it to me it was a huge lightbulb moment for me.

She was very cunning. Apparently she could see that I was not going to be subject to her control, but that my other sister was. I still find it hard to believe that my smart and educated sister could be taken in by such a ridiculously transparent manipulation. We had been through some very hard times as a family and ten years ago I believed that as we all became adults and dealt with all of our various traumas that we would become closer as a family, and leave the dysfunction behind. For a while that actually appeared to be the case. That was MY DREAM – that we had left behind all the bad people and the bad things that had hurt our family and we would find our truth and have a tighter bond because of it. Certainly we would take care of each other and treasure each other because our lives were now up to us to determine and we would not let any more bad things hold us back.

Boy, was I ever wrong. I am now sitting in the smoking hot ashes of a wasteland, wondering what the hell happened.

Without the honesty and the painful sharing that people do on this site I would still feel totally at a loss to understand just what was happening to my family. My sister’s behavior was COMPLETELY incomprehensible to me. Not any more.

LF is the only place where people understand the level of devastation and chaos these people inflict. AND the fact that it goes on for GENERATIONS. The way you look at the world completely changes, and you feel so alone and so vulnerable. You think that you are a competent adult who learned to deal with the world and now you completely lose faith in your ability to make decisions and protect yourself from the BAD people.
And your energy is gone and maybe even your health and well-being are gone and you feel so CYNICAL and JADED and feel that there are no people left to trust and if there were you wouldn’t know how to tell who they were anyway!

For me, the depression and helplessness are the absolute worst. When I get back in touch with the ANGER at least I regain my sense of self-interest and boundaries and the need for ACTION to get beyond this hell.

There was another blog about DRIVEN behavior that can be your worst enemy. That is my own worst enemy now, and I am beginning to see it very clearly. I want to kick myself because I get into this state where I do things that are self-destructive on many levels. It APPEARS to me that I am doing something empowering and rational at the time, but later I can see that it was only a pathetic and misguided attempt to exert some semblance of CONTROL over my life.

I just want you to know that I will be asking a lot of stupid questions that would appear to have obvious answers, because I do not understand what is true anymore. They are not rhetorical but are just my attempts to understand what people are really saying and what they really mean. I have always given people the benefit of the doubt and assumed they were being honest with me. i would make every excuse in the book for bad behavior. Now I feel like I must be the most easily manipulated boob on the planet.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:31am
7stepstoheaven says:

POLLYANNA I READ YOUR LIST OF SPECIALISTS AND LAUGHED OUT LOUD!!

Then Gemini’s “12 Healing Days of Christmas” really hit the mark.

Where oh where are my gift certificates PLEASE!!

I have been through the doctor and therapists and the herbs and the shamans and the bodywork etc. etc. etc.

And the thought of, like you said, having TO TELL THE STORY ALL OVER AGAIN just makes me want to stand outside naked while tearing my hair out and screaming at the top of my lungs!

The neurologist got pissy with me because I hadn’t filled out all the paperwork yet and did not DRAW ON THE LITTLE FRONT AND BACK PEOPLE DIAGRAMS where my pain was. He had my MRI up on the computer screen, what more did he need?

Holy Crap! Did you think about, uh, maybe just ASKING ME???!!!

I told him that my physiatrist would do nerve blocks in his office without sedation, and I could drive there and drive home. This is to make the procedure COST LESS.

At this point the neurologist said to me – WELL IF YOU TRY TO DO THAT WE WILL CALL THE POLICE!!!!!!!!!

WTF??!!

At that moment I felt the complete futility of trying to explain 20 years of pain to this man. VERY bad day.

I had a very bad feeling when I initially started the paperwork and then came across AN ENTIRE PAGE saying how they would not could not ever ever a thousand times no NEVER EVER
prescibe pain meds for their patients because they were just a crutch and they would inhibit your healing blah blah blah.

Oh if these people could just be in my body for a day or a week or a year. I began to feel like I have no respect from these idiots. They are going to think the worst about you at first sight and your credibility is gone. It makes you think that your life has become one endless round of humiliation and shame.

Yikes! – I must keep repeating to myself:

“NEUROLOGISTS HAVE NO PEOPLE SKILLS”

“NEUROLOGISTS HAVE NO PEOPLE SKILLS”

“NEUROLOGISTS HAVE NO PEOPLE SKILLS”

And a partridge in a pear tree!
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 1:17pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

7 steps: “just makes me want to stand outside naked while tearing my hair out and screaming at the top of my lungs!” And this is why they think WE are CRAZY! LOL

You knew when you read the sheet about the no meds. There are signs – but we need help so we put up with the constraints of the sytems.

I did a stand down with a doc recently, and the more we talk about chronic pain and devaluation of those in chronic pain, the prouder I am of my stance – NO, I would not do the anxiety evaluation if they do not work within a paradigm that includes multiple chemical sensitivity. NO, i will not go for an intake, they need to call me and I’ll have a chat on the phone. I am not taking time off of work and wasting my physical energy to go somewhere when I don’t know the paradigm before hand – no where else do we have to put up with such sh*t – even if you are buying furniture you can look the damn place up in the phone book or online, make a call and get some info, before driving to the f*cking store.

your dude, very N traits.

I think your neurologist’s ditty is actually, jingle bells:

“JINGLE BELLS, NEUROLOGISTS SMELL
A WAITING ROOM AWAY,
OH WHAT FUN IT IS TO RIDE, THE ELEVATOR THE OTHER WAY!”

On a constructive note: I have written everything down – I just print the sheet and give it to them. I also got my history from my doc of 7 years when i moved – so i photo copy that and hand it to them.

My new doc – after 5 years with a ‘teaching clinic’ (which i meant i had to go over everything every time i went in, cause it was a new baby doc) I got a permanent doctor last year. the practice is integrated – whcihc means I have access to some services – like the cognitive therapist, and it is covered.

I know the new doc doesn’t BELIEVE in MCS – I don’t even mention fibro anymore – I don’t give them the opportunity to bait me – cause that’s what it’s like. I am a lesbian and I know not to give people the power with that either – SAME thing.

And its what i need to learn about S/N/P also – they are built differently by all accounts, so i need to know how they are built.
It’s about knowledge and integrating defensive and offensive tactics into our systems so that they can’t get to us. It took me about 15 years to be REALLY consistently good at it around orientation – but now i do have a template, that may be transferable.

I noticed that when I was writing to another of the spath’s dupes I didn’t write my feelings – and I really wanted to – but i didn’t – cause i don’t know her and i don’t have any reason to trust her yet. it feels weird, but right.

one step
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 2:09pm
imfree says:

HI, everybody, Where is everybody from? I’m in MIami, Fla.
We have lots of psychos here.
Staying sane the symptoms you are describing with your chest problem are all heat signs the rash, dry cough, sore throat, temp, you need some aloe vera juice, very little though, or you will be sitting on the toilet all day. I would say you are hot and angry, you need to cool off, it’s better for you. This aloe goes to the liver, and it’s good for detoxing
the mental and physical garbage that we get from them

I also daydream of putting a bomb in my p’s car, and watching her blow up, but it’s not worth it, Even though its a great fantasy, In time these psychos will get what they deserve and more, Karma is a bitch. I know the pain, and everything else leaves a great big mark on us, it really messes you up, and you feel like you are going crazy, I did, still do at times.
Antibiotics do mask and it goes in deeper, need to bring it out
and let go, one way I found that helps is by writing a goodbye
good ridence letter, and writing all those deep feelings, pain, anguish, all the crap crying, and then putting it in a box like a coffin, cremate it, and seal it gone..

Polly, send me the site if you can, I think you have fibromyalgia, you need a soft massage, I think that from your tongue, you don’t drink enough water, also check out the mushrooms.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 7:50pm
7stepstoheaven says:

Dear onestep – Gotta go with what feels right, boy am I learning.

My problem is that I had the same docs for years and then I moved so I haven’t quite duplicated all the required services. I am really feeling stupid that I just did not go back to the rheumy who is my trusted doc to speak to him about the referral – he would certainly know about this idiot. I didn’t because I actually liked the guy who gave me a nerve block 6 months ago, he seemed very nice. I just was beginning to think that maybe surgery was needed for the bones pinching the nerves in my neck, which is not something a rheumy handles. Was I being proactive? Or driven?

It was the same practice but they gave me a different doc. I had a bad feeling when I went to the place because it was like a friggin factory. I so do not pay attention to my instincts sometimes. I was acting in a deficit of information, when I thought I had it figured out.

You know I have to remind myself that anyone else who is in the same amount of pain we are in daily would be a nervous wreck. PAIN CAUSES ANXIETY! Duh! It’s part of the flight or fight response. The rare days when I don’t have pain I am as calm as a cucumber.

Most people experience pain on a limited basis – it stops and starts or can be operated on or has some kind of shelf life.
When it is chronic and endless for years and years it affects everything.

I am learning not to expect normal behavior from people in abnormal situations. I hated the whole paternalistic chauvinistic attitude I got from that place! SADISTIC!

Ouch!
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 8:29pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

7 steps,
yah, those pain free mornings are like love. period. everything is just calmer, has more depth, silence and space.

I am in menopause – just bout. oh for gawd’s sake ISN”T IT OVER YET!??! and i am looking forward to taking up more space and just sayin, ‘nuh uh’ a WHOLE LOT.

pain that doesn’t abide regardless of what one does: today a short walk is good, tomorrow a long walk, then a short walk, then i can’t walk. It’s just cruel. Hard to plan, create a life. But i am getting better with it – but my pain levels have been MUCH better this year – ‘cept when the spath fake died, and this last couple of weeks as I am in the midst of dealing with the reality of the mess of my life that i wasn’t taking care of cause i was taking care of the evil twisty one (and winter).

so, I am going to go for a little walk now. me and my pain meds.
they don’t get out as much as they used to!
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 9:09pm
7stepstoheaven says:

Ha ha! I can see their tiny little leashes!

Not being able to plan things has been the worst – I truly have no idea how I will feel from one day to the next. Migraine? Achy? Exhausted? Maybe one, maybe two, maybe all three at the same time – watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!

It sure puts a crimper on your social life. ! adnawoT

Had my nads completely yanked ten years ago. Yay! no more PMS and fetal-position pain in my gut!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:33am
free-at-last says:

Hi everyone, I am new here. Or at least new at posting a comment. I have been reading many of the postings here for about 2 months or so and feel like I know many of you. This seems like such a nice and supportive site. I am so grateful for finding it. It explains so many things that have been “wrong” with my ENTIRE life. It seems to me that the only type of people (mostly men) that I have been involved with were/are s/p or n’s.
I have always thought something must be seriously wrong with me to always have such messed up relationships. I am finally figuring out for the first time in my life that I have been attracted to or attracted these type of people because I am so “nice” and gullible.

My most recent one informed me he was leaving to go back home to another state on November 10. That is when I found this site. The same day he gave away my dog because he claimed I could not take care of it. It was his way of planning ahead you see. He convinced the man (his drug dealer) that I was crazy. Yes I was pretty hysterical, he was giving away an animal I loved very much to a drug dealer. They both ganged up on me and this drug dealer wouldn’t leave my house. I ended up calling the police who made him leave but I lost my beloved doggie.

Of course there is much more that happened in our on and off again 9 year relationship. Mostly me having to pay the bills. Being called all sorts of terrible names. Being lied to constantly. Having him always bad mouthing me to friends neighbors and any one who would listen. (I am crazy you see)

This giving away my dog in anticipation of him moving was just the last straw that opened my eyes. It was very strange though. This happened on on Nov. 10th. He didn’t actually leave until Nov. 23rd. That was 13 days of HELL. I was so frightened. Fear of Abandonment mostly. It was like the deer caught in the headlights feeling that some of you talk about. I have never felt so frozen in my life and never really knew what that saying meant until then. But after it was done, I felt such a burden lifted off of me. That is how I picked my name.

Thanks to all of you. You have helped open my eyes to things that have released me from a lifetime of pain and misery. And, you weren’t even aware of it. I am guessing there are many silent watchers out there just like me that you are helping in addition to yourselves.

Hugs to you all!!!!!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 11:56pm
Spirit40 says:

Wooo hooo Happy New Year Everyone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NC….. NC … A New Year of NC!!!!!!!!
To New beginnings and blessings hugs to all!
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 12:13am
henry says:

Happy New Year to All Love fraud peeps – oldtimers – newbies- and those who have came and went. I went out to dinner with two classy ladies – had suchi – that was a first and last – went to see a movie ‘Avatar’ by myself – drove home at midnite and could see the fire works on the horison under the blue moon Dont’ miss that evil bastard at all~~!!!! woo hoo..nope not one little itty bitty teeny weeny bit – it’s gonna be a good year – a new year
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:44am
Iwonder says:

Well this New Year is starting off strange. I just went around the block to get coffee at QuickChek and my ex Sociopath was there…alone…which means he is not with the OW he left me for. We split May 08 and I saw him with the OW once since then and was able to look him straight in the eye..and her too with no problem. I walked into QuickChek and looked him dead on and said “Hi” and then proceeded to get my things and leave. Empowering. My subconscious was saying “I know who you are Satan and you have no power over me!”

To think I allowed the devil control me and my life for almost 2 years and ruin me financially, emotionally and spiritually and he did it in the name of God…the Bible says the woman is to obey the husband, etc. etc. He didn’t want me to cut my hair, work out, have friends or a job around men. He wanted me to wear shirts that were long enough to cover my buttocks so no men could look at it. My shirts were to be buttoned up to the neck…it was horrible. I lost who I was. All the time, he had another source for financial support and another abode with another woman. I tapped out of money and he went to her. Sorry for the re-cap but I wish I could forget.

I also heard through the grapevine he shops at the grocery store alone now too. Probably looking for his next victim. Ugh.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:49am
Iwonder says:

Henry,
My sister saw Avatar and liked it. I will go see it too…probably by myself. I figure why wait for someone to ask. I was trying to get back with the nice guy I dated for 8 months but I think I blew it as of Sunday. I am wasn’t getting any emotion or warmth when I saw him last…he came by the day before Christmas Eve and gave me a gift….video games in a paper bag. They were not wrapped either. I gave him an expensive GPS system for his motorcycle. He didn’t take his coat or glasses off..had to run to his sisters to put together a skiball machine. Sunday I texted and expressed what I was feeling…like I was trying to get back together but he doesn’t seem to want a real relationship and I missed that with him. I wrote New Years should be spent with that special someone and was just wondering what was up with him and the short visit and that I am confused. Of course I got no response. So, I am letting it go. I don’t think I did anything wrong asking what’s up….this guy can’t express where he wants to go with our relationship…friends? Buds? Don’t know so I asked. Oh well.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:54am
Iwonder says:

Henry,
My sister saw Avatar and liked it. I will go see it too…probably by myself. I figure why wait for someone to ask. I was trying to get back with the nice guy I dated for 8 months but I think I blew it as of Sunday. I am wasn’t getting any emotion or warmth when I saw him last…he came by the day before Christmas Eve and gave me a gift….video games in a paper bag. They were not wrapped either. I gave him an expensive GPS system for his motorcycle. He didn’t take his coat or glasses off..had to run to his sisters to put together a skiball machine. Sunday I texted and expressed what I was feeling…like I was trying to get back together but he doesn’t seem to want a real relationship and I missed that with him. I wrote New Years should be spent with that special someone and was just wondering what was up with him and the short visit and that I am confused. Of course I got no response. So, I am letting it go. I don’t think I did anything wrong asking what’s up….this guy can’t express where he wants to go with our relationship…friends? Buds? Don’t know so I asked. Oh well.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:54am
Iwonder says:

Henry,
My sister saw Avatar and liked it. I will go see it too…probably by myself. I figure why wait for someone to ask. I was trying to get back with the nice guy I dated for 8 months but I think I blew it as of Sunday. I am wasn’t getting any emotion or warmth when I saw him last…he came by the day before Christmas Eve and gave me a gift….video games in a paper bag. They were not wrapped either. I gave him an expensive GPS system for his motorcycle. He didn’t take his coat or glasses off..had to run to his sisters to put together a skiball machine. Sunday I texted and expressed what I was feeling…like I was trying to get back together but he doesn’t seem to want a real relationship and I missed that with him. I wrote New Years should be spent with that special someone and was just wondering what was up with him and the short visit and that I am confused. Of course I got no response. So, I am letting it go. I don’t think I did anything wrong asking what’s up….this guy can’t express where he wants to go with our relationship…friends? Buds? Don’t know so I asked. Oh well.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:55am
Iwonder says:

I think my problem is that I give too much. I don’t want to do that anymore. Maybe it’s good this guy doesn’t want to have a boyfriend girlfriend thing with me…seems like I’ll be short-changed again.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:56am
Iwonder says:

What the heck is wrong with my computer? It posted my writings 3x?
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:57am
henry says:

Iwonder – Yep sounds like he is not that into you. Dont beat yourself up about it. Iwonder I have decided not too worry about the boyfriend / girlfriend thing – just go to that movie by yourself and you will be in good company…happy new year
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:04am
Iwonder says:

Henry – The day after Christmas we talked and he wanted me to get a dirt bike to go riding with him in the Spring..and he wanted to see a movie “after the holidays” but that is not what I want. I want to experience the present. One time he said we would hit a movie and he didn’t even call or show up…just a text that evening saying he stayed in bed all day. This is not acceptable or good enough. It can’t be a one-way street. I think I will write off dating for awhile.

I will see Avatar Sunday..the theatre will be too packed tomorrow.

Well, at least you have weiner dogs to snuggle with! LOL! Hey, remember that guy Indigo from FL last year? He was a hoot.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:14am
henry says:

I love my weiners!!! and I still talk with Indigo he is doing fine. Avatar was fabulous… dont ever settle for less than what you want – being single for a few years wont kill us wonder…
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:20am
Iwonder says:

Henry – Thanks for the support. I don’t want to settle. I got confused with this one because he was happy…he said the best thing about our relationship was that he didn’t settle. 8 months later he felt suffocated and overwhelmed when I asked to give a little more. I hadn’t seen him for 10 days and it bothered me so I spoke up….that’s when he broke up with me. I don’t know…something’s wrong but it isn’t anything I did.

I’m so looking forward to this year.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:26am
henry says:

sounds like he has comitment issues.. He was getting what he wanted until you asked for more , then he ran – hmm sound familiar? At least you werent devastated about it. The more I know about myself the more I realize I am ok just the way I am. Not going to change for nobody or try to change anybody, relationships are just to difficult, for me anyway. Not saying I dont have one eye open at all times tho, but just being realistic so I can get on with living and loving….
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:38am
henry says:

and breathing….
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:39am
Iwonder says:

Yeah..and maturity. He lives at home with parents approaching 40 years old.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:42am
henry says:

Oh My – Red flag~!
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 2:54am
ErinBrock says:

Freeatlast:
Welcome, welcome……and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
I’m glad you chose this name…….you sound empowered.
It’s a ride, and i’m sure you have ‘gathered’ this from your reading the posts and articles…..
But….REMAIN STRONG, StAy true to yourself and decide where your going and get going!
The life journey has twists and turns…..but without a toxic person in your life……the ups and downs are way minimized!

Stick around and thanks for your posting!
XXOO
EB
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 3:19am
OxDrover says:

Dear freeatlast,

Glad you are here at LF, and glad you have been reading. I suggest you keep on readingk all the old archives and learn as much as you can about them, but after a while I think if you are like most.many anyway of us that it no longer is about thenm but about healing ourselves and making ourselves less vulnerable to their tricks.

Keep on learning because that is what makes us stronger, KNOWLEDGE=POWER, GETTING OUR POWER BCK! God bless you.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 3:26am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Hey EB, how is Holly doing?
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 3:33am
ErinBrock says:

Killer is good….
And so is Holly…..the alter ego….
She loves the kids and is as happy as a pig in shit.

She terrorized my coffee in my car tonight…..ooopppsss, can’t leave this stuff around!
I need to be trained!

She’s sleeping right here in my office, next to my chair….she’s definately wants to be around.

She will do the rotating bed sleep thing….kids want to share her……
Kids are gone tonight…..so I get to cuddle her….all night….
It’ll be the first time I have company in my bed since I separated!

Doesn’t seem interested in running off….in the least….

I love to see the joy in the kids eyes and the bounce in all their steps!
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 3:52am
one_step_at_a_time says:

EB, this is great!
I sooo wish my allergies hadn’t gone haywire; I’d love to have another animal. I was at two friend’s houses tonight – dog in one and dog had been in the other and i am paying for it now.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 3:57am
Stayingsane says:

ImFree

Thanks for that simple yet spot on diagnosis! I’m going to struggle down to the chemist tomorrow and get aloe vera juice! I have an aloe vera plant beside me…I had already noticed two of the fronds or whatever you call them withered at the base and were ready to fall. inside these 2 long prongs was lots of aloe vera juice which I instinctively applied to the rash. Its died down. Yes I’m angry and it’s all pushed down because I’m a law abiding citizen and not the Kill Bill type…so cooling down is the cure? the heat is sickening, cant wait for the aloe juice now…I have given up alcohol for 2010! that was like throwing fuel on a fire. Great to have your expertise on the site. Thanks so much! Yes these psycho experiences are horrific on the mind body connection…I was very open to the the P because he lied his way into my heart and dumped a load of crap there. ..crap i’m now responsible for dealing with while he goes off, sweet talks another human sweet being and dumps another load on her. Heartless isn’t the word…
I got a New Year text message from the P’s sister saying life is short…forgive easily…never regret this and that blah blah blah….ooooooh the cheek of her. I didn’t answer but the anger burns inside…I want nothing to do with the family. Nothing. I think I will write the hate mail and cremate it today..I hate bringing this toxic plume into 2010 but it’s not cleared. Not by a long shot and there are days I think it will actually kill me dead.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 6:49am
pollyannanomore says:

Gemini – that is awesome! The 12 gifts you get from a Spath! I posted over you lol

I think if we can manage to talk back with previous generations in our own families of origin we will always find common threads of women suffering with men like this – whether they are diagnosed or not, whether they have all the symptoms or not. And we can use this to build and mend bridges and to seek strength and greater understanding of one another. We have to have these conversations – 7 steps you nailed it when you said you had to talk with your mother because you need information for your healing. I do too – there are many things I don’t recall and I have a need to situate everything in context. Every decision and action is made by a person who has particular experiences and feels particular ways about themselves because of those experiences. It’s huge!

Anger is one emotion that moves us out of the ennui of depression and helplessness, but another is compassion and compassion is our natural state – that is why we were targetted. Compassion from understanding makes the heart expansive and fills every recess of the being with love and warmth. I went through big angry phases and still visit there from time to time, but I’d rather get back to my natural state – a little wiser this time around about who I feel and practice compassion towards!

And above all 7 steps – first and foremost …. you need to have compassion for yourself. You need to forgive yourself and recognise that you were a big hearted person who had nothing but the best of intentions in supporting the Spath – that’s a beautiful thing in the world of today – don’t get rid of it! Have compassion for the beauty in you that hoped for a better tomorrow, that bore all things, believed all things, dreamed all things and loved all things – there is so much good in you to recognise again.

And I know it is so hard when you are in constant pain. Weep for the woman in you who gave everything even when every fiber of her being ached and she could have easily given up – recognise what you did. It wasn’t dumb – it was beautiful. It was just given to someone who didn’t deserve it – we live and we learn. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water – there’s heaps of good stuff in you to preserve. And yes some things will need to be adjusted in light of what you know now – but you’re not alone in that journey – we’re all walking that road and we can figure it out together as we go along. There are no dumb questions – if you don’t have the courage to ask what you consider a dumb question then how will anyone else??

I have days when I feel really dumb too – when I could literally kick my own ass! We need to try giving ourself some of the compassion we gave to others – we desperately need it after this experience.

Hugs to you – you’re getting some tremendous insight happening into your family, your history and yourself – be gentle on yourself at this time – this thinking is taxing and painful at times. Have some chocolate and a nice bath!
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 7:16am
pollyannanomore says:

7 steps – you know people have committed suicide from this pain??? There are several videos on youtube left by devastated family members … I was reading on a message board for CFS the other day (which is now believed to be one and the same as FMS) and there was a heartbreaking post from a woman who said ‘How much longer till we get some help? I have booked and paid for assisted suicide in Switzerland in March because I can’t go on anymore.’ Just devastating.

I was thinking about condensing my med records and pain levels into a rap that I could just put on cd for passing out to them. Now you’re gonna have to imagine Eminem …

“In 2003 I went to a physio
She was useless but she gave me a massage
In 2004 I went to the osteo
I went for a year
But the cash was too costeo (I know it’s a stretch!)

Now I want some relief
from the pain I am feeling
My back is a mess
and my stomach is reeling
I’m itchy and tired and depressed
cause my life is a mess
and you guys are just useless
I’m about to get fuseless
So stop with the sugar pills,
the breathing and huge bills
I don’t want to make drama yall
Just give me some Tramadol”

WORD ! ( sorry – it’s crap but I hope you got a giggle) Fully understand your frustrations – mine are exactly the same. I hope you find someone good and get a basketload of pain relief and post us something wonderful to report you’re floating on a cloud and the pain is gone
Hugs!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 7:31am
pollyannanomore says:

Free at last – I was in a relationship of that length too – I am so sorry you lost your beloved pet – that must really hurt you – what a nasty thing to do to you. I hope you find comfort and healing at this site – the community has helped me more than I can say
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 7:40am
pollyannanomore says:

I’m free – thanks for the reminder about water! I definitely don’t drink enough – I will get back onto it.

Thankyou for your interest in this – not all people are open minded enough to look at this approach!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 7:49am
free-at-last says:

Thank you polly for seeing how cruel that was. The weird thing is that he has 12 I REPEAT 12 cats. And, anywhere from 5 to 15 kittens at a time. They are all inbred, have mites, under nourished, and worms. But, I can’t take care of a dog?????

He just didn’t want me to have the dog because he knew I loved him.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 8:35am
becoming says:

Kathleen, I hope your book is published soon as I want to take it to bed and keep it under my pillow as I don’t find my laptop nearly as comforting as I would a book full of all this wonderful, wonderful advice. ; ) Thanks for all your posts. They are my medicine.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 8:37am
free-at-last says:

Yes OXY, I get your point. I find my self going round and round thinking about him. And then, I try and refocus on myself. About 15 years ago I was told I was co-dependent and I scoffed at the idea. Now I realize that YES I AM CO-DEPENDENT! I spend all my time trying to get happiness from someone else instead of getting happiness from within. It has been a long long long road. But when the light bulb finally turned on it was like a sun lit up my whole world. I never ever thought there was any hope for me. All of you here have no idea how much you have helped me from just reading the posts for the last 2 months.

I am at the very threshold of a new beginning for my life.

Very strange what turning 50 can do to a person hey????
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 8:44am
free-at-last says:

Sorry to keep going on and on. But when he was on the phone to his drug dealer telling him to come get my dog, I told him if he did that I would call the humane shelter and report him for having too many cats. Our state only allows 6 I think. Plus they are all sick and they would be taken away. One even has a scab that hasn’t healed in at least 6 months. The only thing was, I couldn’t follow through with it. They probably would all been euthinized (sorry about the spelling). That is when I realized there was truly a difference between him and I. He has no conscious or empathy towards others. No remorse. I had suspected it but I still thought that being a P meant Ted Bundy type.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 8:55am
free-at-last says:

To henry and I wonder and everyone else:

Did you all know you can watch movies for free at

movie25.com ?

I watched avatar a couple of days ago.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:03am
becoming says:

Hi free-at-last. Don’t apologise about going on and on. It’s what helps, getting it all out there.

I thought P meant serial killer too, until I met a man who is ’sub’criminal’ but has left a trail of broken lives and nothing he can be convicted for. Girlfriend’s suicide attempts, rape … but nothing that can be proved. It’s terrifying to be near someone who really, truly doesn’t care enough not to break another life. I didn’t know I would ever meet such evil.

Think I’m co-dependent too. I must be a love addict to still be so concerned with what someone like that thinks of me. He called me a horrible, ugly, personal name at one point and it hurts me still, despite my knowing what he’s done to others. They know how to get us addicted, with their grooming and their seduction techniques. Anyone without good self-esteem would get taken in by it. Along with the probable brainwashing/NLP techniques.

I’m truly sorry about your dog, I can imagine how much that must hurt. (((hugs)))
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:06am
pollyannanomore says:

Free at last – that is horrible behaviour with animals but I understand your concern about them being put to sleep – can you find a shelter that doesn’t support euthanasia?
I’m a sucker for cats from way back!
You really are at the threshold of a new life – so glad you can see that. It’s so much better away from them and their craziness – to your good health and continued recovery! Fifty will be a wonderful year for you!

PS – I think you can get the dog back too – if it’s gone to a drug dealer then you may have some leverage – Oxy and Matt please give your strategies and you too new Holly mama EB! Much love to you – that was a damn cruel thing to do to you – what he knew would hit you in the guts – what a pig.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:11am
free-at-last says:

Yes becoming! I thought I was just imagining things. OR being paranoid. I remember several times he told me told me explicitly “I don’t care”. I thought he meant it as most of us do when we say that. He really truly meant he didn’t care.

I really hated it when he would be on the phone not 5 feet from me telling other people what a b#%^ and c^%* I was. It was terrible. I am not sure why that upset me more than when he said it directly to me but it did. IT made me feel like I was crazy. They believed him. That it was me when it was really him. INSANITY!!!!!!!!!!

Boy oh boy. When I decide to participate on this website I really go at it don’t I??
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:16am
free-at-last says:

polly he has moved to another state. I am afraid of retaliation from him. He would know it was me who turned him in. I don’t know. Maybe I am a chicken but I am truly afraid of what he would do if I reported him.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:19am
henry says:

Free at Last – Your not chicken. Your smart. Dont antagonize the devil..just be thankfulk he is in another state…these people are dangerous – no contact…
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 12:04pm
henry says:

Free I went to Movie25.com and they want a credit card number….
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 12:39pm
sotired says:

Happy New Year!!! Spath free.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 12:39pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Henry: try alluc.org
some of the sites it links too will give you stupid options to ‘play poker’ or ‘download a special plug in’, but there are usually many links for each movie/ tv show.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 1:24pm
ErinBrock says:

Free:
If you WANT to get your dog back……and this is an important thing for YOU….then call the police.

I assume you have a licence or chip or vet records, reciepts on the dog?
Pull them out, call the cops and report it, go over and get the dog back!!!
It wasn’t the S’s dog to ‘dispose of’….or give away….
So, if it’s important to you…..I say….fuckem….go get your dog.
DO NOT let them intimidate you……
You might also mention to the cops the guys a dope dealer….and hey….did your ex trade the dog for drugs???? was this how the dealer got the dog….drug debt…hmmmmmm.

If you have read any of my posts in the previose threads along the way…..I am one to NOT let the S’s intimidate me and cut their balls off legally in court……
I stand by….right is right and wrong is wrong…..and I am a feisty bitch when I am confronted with anything an S does….
Now….i know this may not serve most well….and we all must decide the ‘risk’ involved in the particular S we are dealing with……
99.9% of what we worry about will never happen……
I applied this to the worry and intimidation from the S…..I broke down everything I ever worried about and none of it happened……all his threats…etc….I view him as stale wind.
BUT I”M NOT!!!

S, You can throw out all the threats you want…..but I’m gonna follow through…….

I say…..call the cops…..man up and stand up for YOU!!! (and your companion)……
The message it sends them…..DON”T FUCK WITH ME.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 5:45pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

EB – can you weigh in on something?

the spath i tangles with used photos of at least 8 people who she was pretending to be.

the one i loved – well, I wondered WHO that beautiful boy REALLY was. and it hurt to know that @#$ had stolen his life, as much as she surely will with MY photos.

so, i have been thinking – she didn’t extort any money from me, so the AG can’t do anything. BUT what about those folks whose pics she used?

If i could find them….

One was a musician, so I expcect that many people had seen him. There was a photo in which his t shirt said, 2007, so they are recent.

many of those photos were used on the website – so lots of us have them. I was thinking about taking THE most used one and posting it on Craigslist in EVERY major north american city.

ideas?
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 5:59pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

…and he had tattoos…mmm, police? tatoos?
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 6:00pm
ErinBrock says:

Free:
The point is….if they are really going to DO something….they generally DO NOT threaten it….they just DO IT!!!

It’s like someone telling you how rich they are…..if they gotta talk aobut it….it ain’t true….

Mine was a ‘talker’…..the things he threatened he never followed through with….it was only to swell up his own balls to feel better for his ego……he was in control…….

I think we tend to think ‘mafia’ with threats…..if I say i’m gonna cut your nose off……you fear it….me and my cronnies…..but the odds are…..you will have your smeller for lot’s of years!!!

It makes me angry to know how many of us are intimidated by thiese freaks….

I want all of us to slam them legally and serve em up for the celebration dinner afterwards….
I’ll bring the wine!
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 6:09pm
pollyannanomore says:

Eb that was what I wanted to suggest Glad you think it’s worth a crack – the dog would have a miserable life with a dealer anyway – would at the very least be neglected and possibly worse.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 8:59pm
Rosa says:

I’ll bring a small blanket.
Very small.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:19pm
ErinBrock says:

Rosa….bring candles….i’ve given the blanket to the new puppy….
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 10:34pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

ErinBrock – can you weigh in on something?

the spath i tangles with used photos of at least 8 people who she was pretending to be.

the one i loved – well, I wondered WHO that beautiful boy REALLY was. and it hurt to know that @#$ had stolen his life, as much as she surely will with MY photos.

so, i have been thinking – she didn’t extort any money from me, so the AG can’t do anything. BUT what about those folks whose pics she used?

If i could find them….

One was a musician, so I expcect that many people had seen him. There was a photo in which his t shirt said, 2007, so they are recent.

many of those photos were used on the website – so lots of us have them. I was thinking about taking THE most used one and posting it on Craigslist in EVERY major north american city.

ideas?

…and he had tattoos…mmm, police? tatoos?
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 10:43pm
Rosa says:

I like the name Holly.

German Shephards are very intelligent, GREAT watch dogs, & intensely loyal.

I had one growing up….Loved that dog.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 11:19pm
ErinBrock says:

ONE:
I think people in general need to be completely violated (harshly) to be able to ‘justify’ getting the law involved….
Bottom line….no one wants to be involved in ‘trouble’.
It’s easy to look the other way…..

I believe you would be ‘wasting’ your time and energy seeking these folks out to see if they ‘care’ that a sociiopath was using their images.

Even if prosecuted, the road is a long and not prosperous one.
people just don’t have the stamina.

I know this isn’t prob. what you want to hear…..but in my battles…..this is what I have found….
You just can’t recruit an army to fight a sociopath and shut them down……it’s a one person show.

Now….on to YOU……
I am not sure your ‘fight’ is worth the price your paying with your health.
I want you to ask yourself…..
WHAT AM I GETTING FROM THIS FIGHT to expose?

There isn’t any financial payoff…..custody or property awards.
And I understand, better than anyone your wish to expose….
But I hate to see you compromise your health and well being for this spath.

I think your not going to get much cooperation from the authorities….because in the eyes of the law…..your damages are ‘minimal’…..(I understand the damage, but I can see you being dismissed along the way).
Your time may be better spent on educating others and raising awareness of all the general S’s around us all!

Just my two cents…..although I totally understand your wish to see her fry…..I’m worried aobut your health….and I allowed mine to be compromised for 28 years until it surfaced and almost killed me!

Take CARE of you darling!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 12:02am
one_step_at_a_time says:

EB – thanks for your response. I needed to ask someone who is willing to engage in a fight. X
one step
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 12:07am
ErinBrock says:

I’ll tell ya…..ive become a fighter….had too….for my own sanity….and with the S….I didn’t see a choice….
I said early on and I truely believed this…..I could give him my eyes, heart and brain on a silver platter, along with all assets, possesions and children……AND HE STILL WOULDN”T BE HAPPY!!!!
So at the risk of not being ruined financially and not having my health to get back on my feet again….If I was…..I was 140K in debt due to his actions of non payment of community liabilities and I had to go for the jugular!!!
I didn’t feel bad in the least…due to his actions/abuse and the fact that he has over a million dollars in cash in his posession hidden.

But….if I was that person your spath was using a photo of….and you contacted me right now……I have to say….I don’t think I would engage in the battle…..My cup is running over at the moment….
I am not sure there is anything that can be done to punish the spath legally….maybe just a cease and decist order…..
You have to be able to prove damages to receive any financial judgements….and the jugements wouldn’t be awarded to YOU……
It’s a thankless ‘job’.
I think it’s a situation of chasing tails…..
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 12:18am
7stepstoheaven says:

Oh pollyanna!

Your “pain-relief rap” made me LAUGH OUT LOUD!

CHORTLE! SNORT! YIP!

You are one funny lady!! I was so ready for a good chuckle!

And the similarities continue…. My mother was date-raped in the summer before her senior year at college. Had to quit school, hide out, have the baby and give it up, just like your “mum.” This was in the early 1950’s, and it was a horrible shaming event for her. I did not know this for a long time – she only told me after I got sick the first time and I had gone back to live with her. After my father (alcoholic beater) and my stepfather (spath) she swore off men FOREVER. She told me many times “I just feel I am very bad at picking men.” I don’t really think she ever dealt with the pain from that. She went on to have four more children, and she always calls me “her firstborn.” The woman is a survivor. She says she had a very happy childhood – she thinks that helped her cope.

My mother married the SP when I was about 8. I had a father again so it took a little adjustment. They married, he adopted her 3 girls, and then when I was 13 my moth had his child, my brother. The SP was our stepfather for over 10 years. My mother divorced him in 1977. more on that later.

Night all!
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 1:07am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Erin Brock – I can appreciate that our circumstances are very different.

(I had been thinking if i could find those people in the photos that maybe the AG would have something HE could work with. dunno. I know it would get her kicked off the website – for about five minutes until she got a new remailer and uploaded the next set of photos she has tricked someone into giving her- or has stolen. I will ask the AG about this)

I AM talking with the folks who are suing her. She learned from her run in with that woman and didn’t pull shit on me that I could have sued her for- and right now I would add, ‘unfortunately’.

I know I will end up being the ‘face’ of love’ to someone else when she uses MY pics to defraud someone. the original beauty boy was very seldom even mildly agitated with anything i did – but was when i posted a couple of pics on the website that i had given to ‘him’ he had a couple diff stories about how that affected him (from diff characters)…and now i think that was about the fact that she couldn’t use them there herself in one of her many manifestations.

i am thinking a lot about what i can and will do and the timing of things. – if i am behind her being outed online, i will not do it myself.

i am thinking more clearly most days – i get triggered, PTSD, and then i am gonzo for a bit – but at least i see that now and that is awesome.

I am questioning, and haven’t come up with any answers yet: what do I want? what is my desire in relation to her? what do i need? what do i want? how do i get there? if she has no deep conscience, then i cannot hurt her – perhaps i can slow her down – at what cost? how do i really feel about testifying against her? how do i really feel about being in her presence?

if i don’t want her to fuck with me, then i should just leave it alone – if THAT is my goal. I keep coming back to vengence and wanting power. I do want to ‘get’ her. And i don’t know if i will be satisifed until i DO SOMETHING. I cannot accept ‘just don’t do anything’ as best advice – I HAVE to untie EACH knot and stand in knowledge and REALLY do what i think is best for this creature ‘one step’, not just what may sound wise.

i see right now as a time of regaining some balance and getting smart. I have many things that need my attention. I will have to do my work and healing around all this no matter what, and i think it is a long journey ahead of me – she hurt me profoundly. And i want to stand her down.

She manipulated me with such glee. I gave ‘him’ such love and light. it WAS magical for me. She made that person and then she took him away. And it feels INTENSELY personal. i don’t think i have ever wanted someone as much in my life.
‘He’ brought out parts of me I hadn’t experienced in decades – and some parts of me i didn’t know could breath so fully, feel so fully, WANT so much. I felt freed. And wanted. And ‘on task’. ‘He’ was amazing, i loved him, and he’s gone. And SHE DID THIS. I am angry at her for taking my fantasy away. She posted, as one of the nasty characters (after she had called me as the resurrected boy: ‘ reality is what’s left when what you believe in is taken away.’ I feel her hands on my arm – my bone snapping; she is cruel.

Her m.o. is to kill off the ‘boy’ and then step in as someone sort of close to herself (well FEMALE at least and VERY close to the ‘boy’ and infiltrate the dupes life. And she then becomes the ‘protector’ of the boy – ‘who really existed’ but who needed to be protected from the duped. I can imagine that being on the other end of that part of the play would be emotional hell. truly. after being told you were THE best thing since sliced bread, you endure a death, then are love bombed by this bitch AND then are told – no, you were in fact, a predator.

i think she was trying to go there with me. she had the sister set up – she was calling and emailing me – but maybe things are diff for her now that she is married again, maybe she isn’t so quick to haul her ass around to the dupes and literally move in with them.

but as the sister she was very weird very fast. and she made some big mistakes. and i knew things were very rotten after a few phone calls. (she IS one hell of an actress.)

But I doubt she knew that i did in fact, ‘feel’ him. i knew when ‘his’ emails were coming – but he was supposed to be dead – and her email would show up. there is so much i don’t understand and i want to know about her scams- it will put me at ease.

i have felt her around me for days. and i don’t know if it is incoming contact or what. she has no way to contact me except snail mail.

someone contacted me a few days ago saying ‘he’ (this person doesn’t know who ‘he’ really is) was alive and they are all alive and someone else we know is chatting with them all. i told her no, ‘ONE person’, and she challenged it (and she was one of the first doubters) and i just shut down and said – don’t want to know and blocked her email. IF i want to know what the spath is doing I CAN go look myself – i am a trustworthy source, this other woman is not.

but beyond getting triggered that day it has stuck with me – it is the weirdest thing- and comes back around to the thing of ‘being one who the precious one needs to be protected from’ and ‘he continuing his life with the chosen’ (the internet has given this bitch SO many more tools – she doesn’t even have to leave the house to pull a con) –

I feel rejection, abandonment, jealousy, feel i am missing out on THE BEST PARTY, I feel devalued – and I KNOW HE ISN’T FUCKING REAL!!!!!

So, I need to work with these feelings. I feel jealous that someone else is being duped and not me?!?! FUUUUCK!! I DON”T WANT THAT BACK. And yet, here I am – bequeathed a rat nasty nest of feelings.

Most days, most of most days all the sock puppets stay in the big shoe. I am grateful that the woman who blogs about her – who is suing her – posted some of the things she did – cause I have PROOF for my delusional mind when crap like that email make me doubt what i know – that all of the manifestations ARE HER, which makes Her SPATH.

\
I put something together today: that time that many here talk about- the shift from their wow factor to their ick factor. Harder to see when there are 6 of them – but it came together for me today. So, now I can start seeing all that the manifestations said and did as the ‘whole of the path’s actions and words’. And that already made the ‘turning’ accessible to me.

…as usual one good trigger always provokes a long post. And I am better for it.
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 1:36am
pollyannanomore says:

One Step I got sucked in by a guy overseas who was all rubbish – I don’t even actually know if he lived in where he said he did or not! I was a few months separated and pretty damned vulnerable – we conversed everyday online and I am pretty sure whoever he was, he was also on the Cluster B highway. We conversed for months, with him sucking me dry and giving very little then one day a lightbulb went on for me and I pulled right back from him – deleted all his contact details and went cold turkey – the guy had manipulated like you wouldn’t believe – all these promises of a future and arrangements made to call and visit that would always fall through.

I felt really dumb after that – I missed whoever he was. It is so easy to build the illusion of intimacy online with someone you never spend real life time with. You must feel incredibly violated by this person especially finding out so much about the real person behind it. I never did find out if the guy was real or someone pretending to be someone else …and eventually I was able to let it go. Did you just talk online with your’s? No cam I assume from their end or phone calls? How long were you talking with one another for and what kinds of plans were made? (sorry if I have missed you posting on another thread about this, but I tend to miss a lot of posts!)

Glad the awful rap gave you a chuckle – you have a tangled family history to resolve for yourself – are you in contact with your siblings still? Did you ever find the sibling who was adopted out? I just wonder how our mothers and grandmothers coped with all the pain they went through in bad relationships … so much unresolved shame in pregnancy outside wedlock in those days.

Hope your pain is better today – you sound like you’ve got a bit of fire back – good to see!
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 6:18am
free-at-last says:

Henry,

If you go to movie25.com, DO NOT click on the DOWNLOAD THIS MOVIE. That is the deluxe link so to speak. scroll down a little and it will give you a playlist of version 1 version 2 etc. These are the free ones. Sometimes you have to try a couple of differant versions to find one that doesn’t lag. They also have some advertisements you have to sit through. That is why they are free.
I have watched around 100 free movies from that site and have never given a credit card. The free ones are the capped bandwidth and slow buffering sometimes. The fast stream ones are the ones that want a credit card #.

7 step. I have chronic back pain from a pinched nerve in my back. I am so LUCKY to have a physician that lets me have pain meds. She does however monitor me very closely so I don’t get addicted to them. I have been taking them for about 5 years now and am so very very stingy with them myself because I don’t want them taken from me and have to live in with the overwelming pain. Honestly, if I did not have the pain meds I seriously would consider taking my life. The quality of life living with that kind of extreme pain is not worth living to
me.

Erin, The whole story with the dog is rather twisted. He actually got it from a man, John, accross the street. I am not sure if this man is a psn or not but his gf kicked him out because he had no job and she got tired of paying his bills. The dog stayed with the gf at the time. John and my p kind of tricked her into giving the dog to us. John owed me about $40 for running my phone bill up. The gf Paula, is bi polar and was on meds but quit taking them and started going nuts. Out in the street ranting and raving throwing stuff at neighbors and just acting scary. She threatened the man who lived in the other half of the duplex from her with a knife. My p ran over there and the police were called. She ended up giving the dog to my p for the $40 she and John owed ME for the phone bill. This is in front of a police officer. What better witness to have than a police officer to say the dog is HIS. Well the money was actually owed to me so it is my dog right? The dog,Junior, and I were the ones who loved each other. He slept with me. My P had another room BTW. He was the only animal I have been able to get close too in about 20 years. I have had pets but they were mainly my children’s pets. You know how a pet seems to be drawn to one person or another in the family. Well this dog was MINE. He gave me solace and comforted me. He was perfect in every way. But, how can I go to the police when he has a police officer witness that the dog is his??? And now this homeless guy John comes in the picture saying the dog was his orignally. The drug dealer, Andy, is also John’s drug dealer. So they are all against me. And, I did tell the police that Andy was a drug dealer. But they acted like I was just a crazy old hysterical woman trying to get these 3 good buddies in trouble. What is that called triangulation or something when the P can get others to go along with their plan and motives. My p like so many others is very glib and can charm the socks off of most people. He sounds so reasonable to people outside of our relationship. Anywhere from casual friends family to the sales clerk to the cops. That really seems to get me the most is how they can fool EVERYONE. It makes me absolutely CRAZY. Then I act crazy. My now 19 year old son advised me on the day my P gave the dog to the drug dealer that I was the one who looked CRAZY not the p because I was hysterical. My P was all nice calm and charming as usual when he wants to get something from someone. He sounded so rational laughing and joking with the cops. My son went outside with me while the cops were there and kept me calm by whispering over and over not to get upset or loud because it would just hinder me and the cops would think I was the problem.

Everyone advised on LF if you have to go to the judge or anyone in authority that you have to remain calm or you will be looked at as the crazy one. For me that is nearly impossible. IT is just so absurd what these people can do (the psn’s) and get away with and others don’t get it. The Authorities are the ones that should be on your side and stick up for what is RIGHT. The ones you should be able to turn to for help. Yet, They are the ones that enable the psn’s to get away with it. Just like Henry’s story when his p broke into his house yet the cops said they wouldn’t get in the middle of a homosexuall affair. HMPH!!! what the heck does that have to do with the fact that the p committed a crime???? It is just bizare. The poeple who it around and watch these awful things take place or even particpate in letting it happen are just as guilty in my opinion. An old saying “If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem” is apt with all psn’s.

Sorry but it just angers me that it is all so circular like that. My hands are shaking so bad right now I can barely type.
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 1:54pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Donna – what is wrong with the lovely blog? New site?
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 4:06pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

yay, we’re back!
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 7:45pm
7stepstoheaven says:

Kathleen – as I go back and read what you and others here say I see and learn completely different things from the way I understood it on the first reading (or 2nd or 4th or 10th!). Here you were talking about changing the dynamic of a relationship which has been based on dysfunction, in order to shape it into a more rewarding one:

“If you can figure that out, then you can go after it. Reinforce their good behavior. Ask for what you want. If you don’t get it, say thanks for the effort, but let’s focus on other things in the future. If they do something you hate, say “I hate it when you do that.” Teach them how to be good, by being what you want them to be, and ignoring what doesn’t match. It might take a year or two, but they’ll figure it out, if they really want a relationship with you.”

—————–

I first read this and thought, I have tried to do this but it hasn’t worked at all. If the other person doesn’t care than this change ain’t gonna happen no matter WHAT you do.

In coming through my catastrophizing fog I find I need to give myself some credit for actually working on developing a positive relationship with my mother. In dealing with the rest of my family I have been stuck like a little gerbil running in her exercise wheel while getting nowhere. There has to be some level of communication and trust, and even love and compassion, FROM them, to try to “retrain” people in your close relationships so that the interaction becomes more insightful, respectful, and kind.

Since she is now the “lightning rod” through which I experience the rest of my dysfunctional family, my anger with them has kind of piled up on her. I had to think about that a lot this week, and today I realize that my relationship with her HAS CHANGED for the better. I do know that our interactions have become more positive and our relationship has grown. She still drives me crazy much of the time, but she doesn’t lie to me.

Wow – if my expectations are so low that a good relationship is someone not lying to me, I need to reconsider that, don’t ya think?

I know that she loves me, trusts me, and that most of the time she RESPECTS me. She listens to me now, in a way she never could when I was a child. She will tell me what she really thinks and feels, in a way that she is afraid to do with my siblings or with anyone else. I can’t really expect her to change the dysfunction in how she relates to them, but maybe in some small way our changed relationship may influence their own insight and healing.

Kathleen:

“Honesty can be truly a weird element in a relationship that was formerly based on nice lies. People get shocked. They think you’re being rude or not playing by the rules. They accuse you of deliberately trying to be hurtful. They’re so accustomed to burying their own truth that they feel like they deserve payback by everyone else burying theirs. So when you inject authenticity into these relationships, it can take a while for them to get the hang of it and realize it’s a good thing.”

—————

I played these games with my mother for a long time. She was brought up in a very conservative small city in the deep south, where manners and appearance were everything. Being rude to others or saying what you really were thinking was just not an option. Upsetting the status quo by not being NICE was the most unforgivable sin. It is an environment that breeds perfectionism and hypocrisy.

But I realize that I am fortunate because she is an honest person. If she distorts information it is from her own denial or hurt. She is not the kind of manipulative person who plays people for fun, or is deliberately deceptive, although she can be passive-aggressive at times. As a woman raised in an era and culture where she was expected to be passive in relationships and to submerge her own ambitions in marriage and raising children this is to be expected. She was taught to put everyone else’s needs before her own. This did not prepare her for the difficulties she had to face in her life.

If she was dishonest then a relationship with her would be untenable. She accepts what I say now as coming from an equal (most of the time), and I realize that that is a long way from where we used to be. It is the one basic foundation that appears to be missing in transactions with my siblings. It is the most important element in having any kind of relationship with anyone, regardless of familial ties or love or other worldly obligations.

Kathleen wrote:

“You’ll notice them starting to divulge things with a kind of guilty pleasure long before they actually get a grip on the fact that you’ve changed the game in a good way.”

—————

I had to realize that she will be completely honest with me, and is not afraid to tell me anything. This IS a huge change. And also the fact that I do pretty much tell her how I feel about the dysfunctional doings of my siblings. I may not get the RESPONSE from her that I would like, but I have realized that it is enough that I am able to tell her what I think and how I feel. I had been feeling only the frustration and the failure of trying to get HER to change, when in fact the good news here is that I have changed, and that is something positive.

In fact, she has told me things recently that I know she has never told a living soul. That information is important, not only for her to be able to acknowledge her own thoughts and feelings, but for BOTH of us to bear witness to the actual truth of our shared history. It means something that she can say these things to me. I am only interested in the truth, and not some story to placate me and wrap me up in a giant cotton ball, shielded from harsh reality.

pollyanna you said:

“7 Steps – I am glad you and your mum are getting through some of the denial and pain as you work your own way through the labyrinth towards healing – I do believe if we are brave enough to go on this journey then 1) mighty forces will come to our aid and 2) our process of enlightenment will support others to reach for the light as well. I sense from your very insightful post that you are starting to understand why you were raised the way you were with your mum as you see her experience and pain by having experienced it yourself.”

——————

I realize that my anger is not so much with my mother any more. I had long ago decided that I needed to forgive her for her inadequacies as a parent, because she had been so terribly abused herself. I felt a lot more compassion for her as I began to learn the terrible things that she endured, and that a lot of what I had experienced as hostility and neglect was her reaction to events which had affected her, NOT because of inadequacies in me. She did not treat me that way because I was bad or unlovable or defective in some way. She cared for me in the best way she knew how, and some of it was good. She worked very hard, and tried her best to give us a nice home. She would make us wonderful meals and share her love of music and art and the good things in the world. She was responsible and loving TO THE BEST OF HER ABILITY. I had to ask myself if I could have done any better if I had been in her shoes.

pollyanna everything you say in your response to my post is so understanding and so close to my own experience. It gives me a whole other level of understanding, how life experience teaches compassion as you go forward, in sometimes horrifyingly painful ways. What you said to me was a gift, and even though these lessons put us through hell, we are better human beings for it. Some things are only understood when you have been tested and tried in the fire of your own life experiences. I would rather have this knowledge than go through my life as an endlessly consuming, emotionally voracious and destructive, empty person that is the sociopath, who is the embodiment of a life full of pain, without gain.

This goes back to what Kathleen said:

“The most difficult and hardest part of healing is getting through all the layers of self-blame, imagining that we might have done better, anger that things weren’t different, fear that we’ll never be whole or okay, struggling with the idea that we didn’t deserve better, to the simple knowledge that we’re carrying around an unhealed wound.”

————–

My learning curve over the past 20 years regarding my own co-dependence and dysfunction had to come first, before I could even begin to understand the way she had experienced the world, or how our relationship was shaped by those experiences. Many, many steps. Work on understanding myself, trying to heal and change myself, trying to understand her behavior, trying to understand the way in which her history affected the dynamic between us, and then trying to change the way in which we interact. Trying to think clearly about what it is that I want/need, and then developing the ability to SAY what it is that I want. Being attached to what I want to say, but detached from the result. Trying to become ACTIVE, not REACTIVE.

When you realize that this is what healthy people have learned to do instinctively, you are faced with quite a task.

I had to stop taking it personally, because I am not that bewildered child anymore. I had to imagine myself in those situations, and understand that I might have reacted to them in
my own confused and fearful way. My biggest, most difficult task has been seeing the disconnect between my thoughts and emotions, looking back to see how this happened and how it still happens. I have to perform a type of mental surgery in going back to re-attach the thoughts to the emotions, the context to the stark detached memories of experiences which are in a completely separate box from my emotional truth.

Only when you finally see the results of this work, can you understand the appropriateness of the emotions you have to the situations you experienced. It is like many many deaths in your soul, and you go through all the mental reactions to death again and again. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You can easily get stuck at any stage, and for a very long time. You can be stuck at different stages with different people at the same time, according to where they are stuck.

This takes so much focus and energy, and mindfulness. You have to go through mental and emotional gymnastics in everything you do in the world, every personal interaction, every decision. And to gain the confidence that you can make the correct decisions takes a very long time. You have to go through a long time of being very hard on yourself when you did not make the right decision. You begin to see that the wrong decisions are based on a kind of blind impulse that takes over your brain like some kind of misguided avatar. It’s a loss of consciousness that completely overrides your own best interest.

I am the driver. Never, ever give the steering wheel of your own life to another. This is one of the biggest ways in which we become vulnerable to people who wreak havoc in our lives, because we want to be rescued, accepted, taken care of. We want to escape into a fantasy. We can give away the responsibility of thinking for ourselves to someone else. This becomes our addiction, because it feels good when we do this. We feel relief. Our fears are buried. Our needs are met for the moment, but the consequences can be horrendous.

BOY I SURE DO TALK A GOOD GAME DON’T I – WISH I COULD ACTUALLY APPLY IT TO MY LIFE!!

No wonder we are so exhausted! The work is difficult but the rewards are great. It is a long haul, and you have to stay the course to the best of your ability. Any action based on fear or addictive need will ALWAYS be a complete retrograde motion away from an action based on our long-term needs and goals, the actions which can truly lead to happiness or at least a feeling of acceptance in our lives.

SHORE WISH I COULD GET BETTER AT DOING THIS!

POLLYANNA

“are you in contact with your siblings still? Did you ever find the sibling who was adopted out? I just wonder how our mothers and grandmothers coped with all the pain they went through in bad relationships … so much unresolved shame in pregnancy outside wedlock in those days.”

I have thought about the fact that I have an older sister out there somewhere and it has saddened me. The brief thoughts I have had about trying to find her have been tempered by the fact that my mother has absolutely no wish to do so, and that for this girl to find out that she was the product of rape could only be awful for her. Add to that how badly my siblings have behaved and I just can’t see anything positive coming of it.
It happened almost 60 years ago, and since she was adopted at birth she probably went to a family that wanted her. Is it too late for me to be Adopted Out??!!!

I have almost no contact with my siblings by choice, because they have basically scapegoated me. I remember reading a couple of years ago that if one sibling in a family gets ill, they are often scapegoated by their sibs, which is awful but appears to be close to my experience. I thought I had great relationships with all of them but then was entirely blindsided. If I had had any idea that this would happen I could have been better prepared for it, but when I was at my most vulnerable they pulled the rug right out from under me. The pain of this abandonment has been very difficult for me to get beyond, but like Kathleen has said, you can weep, wail and moan but it won’t change the facts.

It is not possible to contend with their distortions, lies, and betrayals. It might be possible to deal with my sisters one on one, but with one manipulating the other there is no chance for any meaningful communication. My brother is just selfish and irresponsible and if he thinks relaying any private information will give him some attention then he is all in. Discretion is a concept entirely foreign to him – except if it is within his own interest. Learned that one the hard way.

When I rarely speak to them it is very superficial and polite. It’s not worth exposing myself to that pain. I send holiday and birthday gifts to my niece and three nephews but have not seen or spoken to them in five years, and they are all practically teenagers now. It horrifies me now to think how my sisters have probably spoken about me in front of the kids without my knowledge or input. I know that I have no control over that and I haven’t done anything wrong. I just want the kids to know that their aunt loves them.

The last time I called to speak to the kids, my sister put the speakerphone on to monitor everything I said, like I suddenly had become untrustworthy or a loose cannon. The speakerphone event just sickened me. That their expectations are so low and so full of paranoia says a lot more about them than it does about me. That was just it for me. More stress than I could deal with anymore.

Thank you I do feel better today. Decided to bite the bullet and take the pain meds. I was going to spend some time with my mom but I called to let her know I was running late and she got all nasty and whiny that I wasn’t over there already – not the kind of attitude that makes you want to spend time with anyone. Took all the air right out of me. She is such a child sometimes. I decided under those circumstances I’d rather stay home and talk to you guys!

For all of the above scribblings that our relationship has improved, at times she can suck any compassion you may have had right out of you. She can get away with guilting her children, but I know she would not dare behave that way with anybody else. I just hate that horibble yucky feeling that immediately overtakes me when she does this. Wish I could just blow it off but that ain’t happenin’ anytime soon!

She’s probably on the phone now whining to my sister that I bailed on her. Some things will never change.

I loved the Lily Allen vid on youtube! That was pretty special!
That and the GaGa vid for Bad Romance – did not know that girl could dance. How the heck does she do it in those shoes?!

Oy! Cannot seem to make posts of reasonably short length! It’s just all the thinking y’all make me do!
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 8:10pm
henry says:

Free at Last Calm down – BREATHE – Look at the shape our world is in, the corruption etc. We are out numbered. ..sorry you are having a bad day…….
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 8:16pm
henry says:

Testing 123 – Beam me up scotty – is this yesterday? today? or tomorrow?
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 8:19pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Pollyannanomore: don’t know if you will ever SEE this post – what IS wrong with the blog today?

i think part of your post re sibs etc. was meant for someone else. my sister wasn’t adopted out.

the spath and i were in hardcore phone/ email contact for most of this year. 2 hours a day for the last few weeks of ‘his life’.

and my heart can’t tell you the number of promised and failed ‘meetings’. i went to meet him once – but, oh, his plane was delayed, blah blah blah.

i also spoke to his sister when ‘he died’….. the spath is very talented with the accents and various voices. i know this cause i know a bit about – oh such a small amount compared to what i want to know – her spathing history.

but how she faked being him day in day out – well, there is a level of mastery there that has been absolutely WASTED ON A SPATHING CAREER! SHE SHOULDA’ BEEN ON STAGE, AND A WRITER – AND DROWNED AT BIRTH. Oops, sorry – did i say that last one aloud?

one step
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 1:17am
one_step_at_a_time says:

and polly….i have a WHOLE new list of does and don’t for online connections.

this was only the second person I have met online. and i am a good person, and i can smell sh*t in real life – but obviously not online, cause the first one i met online and dated off and on for 2 years is an N, and now this one, is a spath.

I had been alone for 18 years when i met (and i did meet her within a few weeks of meeting her online. she lived in another city) the N. 18 years is a long time. It was that long ’cause – the last person i had been with was an alcoholic, and i scared the bejeezus out of myself and didn’t trust myself for a long long time.

then there is that thing of finding someone to date. i know the spath was supposed to be a boy – BUT WASN’T (SNORT!), but ‘he’ was an anomaly – my heart is with women, and the % is small in the population and even smaller in smaller places. I think it would be hard enough for me to find someone if i were str8t – but htis is just ridiculous – so i went online. and got me into some bit of trouble!

i don’t like big cities much – but it is either that or go live in the boonies by myself and just forget ever having a lover. period.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 1:27am
henry says:

onestep – The boonies are full of lesbians. They have nice big homes, drive big butch trucks and drink beer and watch lots of football. They have lot’s of parties and friends. My gaydar is better with lesbians than gay men. So maybe moving to the boonies is not a bad idea? Have you ever gone to womens sports events like basketball or soccer? Seems to me lesbians are better with long term relationships than gay men. And lot’s of women become gay after being involved with a jerk husband or boyfriend.
I live in the boonies. I love my privacy. I am a hermit. I am left alone for the most part. I wouldnt trade my little modest humble home on my 5 acres for any big house in a big city. I can see the stars at nite and the moon is bright. I hear see and feel nature. I grow things. My little weiners love the freedom and adventure of patrolling their territory. I have so muh to be thankfull for.
I am sorry this internet, texting thing happened to you. But for me the only good thing I have found on the internet is lovefraud. I will have to meet someone eye to eye. The internet feeds our fantasys and waste too much of our lives. Sorry for rambling but I just watched Paranormal Activity and I am pumped up with adrenaline – sheesh that is a scary movie…..
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 3:25am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Henry – I laughed when i read your post – ’cause what i edited out of mine was:

‘…and i don’t play pool, drink beer as a hobby, have no interest in the butch/ femme paradigm, not interested in people who never developed any politics around orientation or whose politics froze in the 80’s, don’t care about sports (of any kind) don’t have a rat tail or own a pair of ‘birks’….

one friend told me i was a fag. um, noooo, i think she actually meant, ‘artist’.

…and THAT’s why it is hard to meet a girl.
Butch trucks, however, ARE something I am very down with.

I can see the stars at nite and the moon is bright. – and this is worth it’s weight in gold.

and i wish it had only been an internet thing. that i didn’t spend precious hours every day, talking to the stupid spath.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 5:15am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Henry – are the RECENT COMMENTS on the side bar refreshing for you? they haven’t been working for most of the day for me.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 5:17am
7stepstoheaven says:

one step – sorry you were having such a bad day yesterday. If you can be happy about one thing it seems to me that at least someone has a legal case against this predator. It’s probably not going to be you personally that gets the payback – but at least someone has the goods to take “it” down.

When you said “I know I will end up being the ‘face’ of love’ to someone else when she uses MY pics to defraud someone.”
that just sent creepy chills down my spine. I know that the Internet is one big impersonal place, but using your face is like stealing your soul – like the aboriginals who wouldn’t let people take pictures of them. It’s identity theft in a way that could impact you personally if anyone recognizes you.

Probably pretty far-fetched but that would concern me. Maybe you could send the person who does have the legal case a letter that describes your experience with the spath, and that at least DOCUMENTS the facts with who when where and what your concerns are.

In case this ever comes back to haunt you you will have SOMETHING. It probably is too stressful and bad for your health to pursue your own grievance, but to have your experience on the record with the person who does have one may be a good idea. These people get away with murder, and the more smoke signals they leave behind could prove to be their undoing.

My stepfather was so devious that it wasn’t possible to pin him down. If he made any mistakes to mark his trail we will never know. He was always three steps ahead, and was smart enough to cover his tracks. By the time I began noticing anything fishy, he had spent 10 years in my family and was outtathere. His tentacles were everywhere. He’s still doing damage, because of the repercussions of all his crimes. The more we stand up and are willing to at least talk about it so we are no longer silent passive victims is very important.

My mother went to work for a psychiatrist after stepdemon left, and she read “The Mask of Sanity” way back then in 1977. In my family we have clearly understood what sociopaths are since then. He looked like a productive, socially acceptable, intelligent and charming person, not like some criminal monster. But monster he was.

It’s only AFTER coming here to LF that I realize the legacy of this can be inherited. 30 years after the man left our family the damage is still like fresh garbage. If there is any justice in the world I can only pray that my stepbrother never has children.

Erin nobody better mess with you girl!! You are FIERCE!

I have been watching “Lolita” this evening – this movie is teeming with psychopaths -almost too creepy to watch. Hard to figure out at times who are the victims and who are the predators. Lolita said this to Humbert when he was weeping over her infidelities “I’m sorry I cheated so much, but these things just happen!” Great sociopathic line – I am sure many of you may have also heard it!

One step at a time, one day at a time, into the new year….
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 8:34am
pollyannanomore says:

Seven steps = that sounds like a mighty tangled family history – and when you add to it a child conceived via rape – well ther is little chance for anyone to reconcile that relationship. In any adoption situation the feelings of all parties have to be considered. Having started to forge relationship with my missing sibling I can attest to how difficult it is when you only share blood and no memories together. There is no rule book or guidebook to follow … I wonder what the title would be if there were! This forming relationships after the fact has presented itself in my life twice – once with my sibling and once with my father – I reflect quite a bit about why I am given those particular situations to live through.

Like you I see it as learning – we are given these situations for spiritual learning. I guess that’s part of what made it so hard with the P = I came to a point where I couldn’t see any point in it – I couldn’t see the value of the learning at all and it just seemed like one of those ‘unfortunate’ random coincidences that happen in the universe. That really shook me because I have always thought that in some ways things are fated a little – we are sent what we need for growth at a particular time. So to consider that it had no meaning just busted that concept apart and left me with no prevailing ‘life philosophy’. Fortunately I have moved past the meaningless stage and can now see the learning in it all for me … and in fact for others around me if I take the opportunity. That doesn’t make it any easier to live through but I can see the point of it in the grander scheme of things. And this time, rather than being all about him, it’s all about ME

You had a great deal of wisdom in that big post … let me just pick out a couple of gems

“I had to stop taking it personally, because I am not that bewildered child anymore. I had to imagine myself in those situations, and understand that I might have reacted to them in
my own confused and fearful way. My biggest, most difficult task has been seeing the disconnect between my thoughts and emotions, looking back to see how this happened and how it still happens. I have to perform a type of mental surgery in going back to re-attach the thoughts to the emotions, the context to the stark detached memories of experiences which are in a completely separate box from my emotional truth.

Only when you finally see the results of this work, can you understand the appropriateness of the emotions you have to the situations you experienced. It is like many many deaths in your soul, and you go through all the mental reactions to death again and again. Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You can easily get stuck at any stage, and for a very long time. You can be stuck at different stages with different people at the same time, according to where they are stuck.”

This is right – many many deaths – this is what I was referring to when I wrote about having to review and reprocess everything – it’s much more complex than a simple objective review and I doubt I can delineate the steps involved but it definitely involves elements of appreciating how you acted in the moment and why, forgiving yourself for your actions or lack of them and considering how you would respond in future situations – for people who learned to ‘react’ – who were programmed by others to always behave in certain ways, there are elements of reprogramming going on here. For perhaps the first times in our lives, we are learning to act consciously in our own best interests – to consider what we want and to start to take steps to get it. When you have learned to expect nothing and act in the best interests of others, this is an exhausting process and extremely daunting. I have days when I literally don’t know what to do to move forward and feel totally overwhelmed, but I am starting to move out of that space – slowly and surely. When I was with him, I was completely stuck all the time and on autopilot.

You also made a point about our abilities being different with different people – very true. Some people trigger unconscious reactions in us – I guess the knack now is trying to remain mindful and acknowledging what comes up in these situations – if we watch we can learn from it. I read a quote and I think it was from Freud – perhaps a better read member can correct if wrong!
“Individuation is the ability to remain yourself when around family.” It refers to the unconscious family scripts and roles we enact – you talked about being made the family scapegoat and the topic of gossip – all families have one somewhere to relieve the unspoken tensions that nobody else will name.

“This takes so much focus and energy, and mindfulness. You have to go through mental and emotional gymnastics in everything you do in the world, every personal interaction, every decision. And to gain the confidence that you can make the correct decisions takes a very long time. You have to go through a long time of being very hard on yourself when you did not make the right decision. You begin to see that the wrong decisions are based on a kind of blind impulse that takes over your brain like some kind of misguided avatar. It’s a loss of consciousness that completely overrides your own best interest. ”

Yes yes yes! We were literally on autopilot with the SPNs – that is what they wanted for us. We stopped analysing and standing up for ourselves and sharing what we wanted and taking actions to get it – there was no point as we were always blocked in some way. We learned to have no expectations – I have heard this referred to as their behaviour of managing our expectations down. So in becoming lucid, we are switching on our drives again as well as our emotional and rational thinking – it is mental gym at its best and is really draining. I find I am drawn to lots of entertainment now – I can think and reflect for a while, but then I desperately need a break. Before, I would sit with the unsolvable puzzle of the relationship wondering why I couldn’t work the damned thing out when I was capable of achieving in every other area of life. It was like one of those russian puzzle rings – seven rings all intertwined and he threw them on the floor and left me to try and get them back together so they fitted as they needed to. Or like a rubiks cube – the relationships were all unsolvable because that is one of the things that kept us all hooked in. If I had realised long ago it was hopeless naturally I would have left – he dangled hope like a carrot in front of me and stupidly I kept reaching out for it.

Keep writing! These long posts have lots of meaning that others can relate to. I liked the whole post and could relate to many aspects of it, but these are the parts I was especially impressed with. And you certainly do talk a good game – articulating such complex thoughts is the beginning of living them – I know you are already embodying them now and as you probe deeper they will sit more authentically with you as you get used to them. Read over that post once more – you’ll probably be shocked at what came out when you see the whole thing and read it cold!
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 9:37am
pollyannanomore says:

One Step = you are right – my apologies – I am getting my steps all muddled up!

I can’t believe the show this Spath put on for your benefit – imitating a sister? Dying? WTF? This is like the worst kind of net fraud you read about sometimes and is truly truly sick – people like that make the net an unsafe place for the millions of people who don’t lie and who do present themselves as themselves. To use false photos is just horrible.

I had a friend who did that – he wasn’t handsome but had a pic of a model up as his own. As we conversed over time, it became clear to me that he was lying about himself and hiding elements of his life – told me several fake names and made out he had a bad experience with another woman online who tried to ruin his career – high profile and supposedly he was protecting himself. In the end up I had to delete him and end contact – I just can’t be associating with liars anymore.

There is a postscript though! A few months later a random chatter appeared with the exact same profession but apparently from another location – different pics this time. I had a funny feeling in my gut but decided to keep talking and let him hang himself and sure enough if I conversed quickly enough with him, the same stock phrases were used that the previous friend had used. The guy had english as a second language and had rather unique phrases he used so I was able to recognise them quite quickly and there were definite anomalies in the way he used english. I called him on it and confronted him demanding he put up his cam so I could see who he was in moving action. COnveniently he responded his cam was broken – I told him I didn’t believe him and outlined my theory that he was the deleted friend, which he strenuously denied. It made no odds to me – I cussed him and deleted him.

No more liars. No more excuses. So I think perhaps this creation of a false identity online is fairly common these days unfortunately. Neither man scammed me out of money, but it made me feel violated to realise I was talking with someone deceptive and deceitful. I am quite quick now at picking up when something isn’t right!

I just don’t get why they do it. Do you? Why bother faking who you are? To seem more impressive? Or is it just a control tactic?
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 10:00am
7stepstoheaven says:

free-at-last –

“7 step. I have chronic back pain from a pinched nerve in my back. I am so LUCKY to have a physician that lets me have pain meds. She does however monitor me very closely so I don’t get addicted to them. I have been taking them for about 5 years now and am so very very stingy with them myself because I don’t want them taken from me and have to live in with the overwelming pain.”

Hey free – I have been just the same way, stingy with my meds. It just really annoys me that so many people abuse these meds and doctors are punished for prescribing them. Part of the problem is some of the doctors’ fault, too. Why are they giving MONTHS worth of pain meds to someone who had a toothache or outpatient surgery?

That pinched nerve thing can be very bad – pain killers don’t always work very well for that. After 20 years of fibromyalgia I have developed arthritis in my neck, because the bones have deformed and are pinching the nerves. At least there are a lot of options today with nerve blocks and surgeries and tens units etc.
Not that they always work! I would rather have had treatable cancer than what I have.

I remember clearly that 4 days after my hysterectomy (laparoscopy – so I didn’t have a large incision) I did not need pain meds anymore. The pain I have on a daily basis is much worse, but a lot of people in the medical profession will look at you and say – well there is no degenerative disease, you’re not going to die or bleed to death or whatever anytime soon, so people with chronic pain become the poor stepchildren of the medical profession. Part of the reason they don’t want to treat you is because there is not much hope of success. It’s a very difficult problem.

I also really hate the fact that the first thing that goes through the mind of any medical professional, before they know me, is that maybe I’m playing them for meds. I feel like all of these abusers out there have an effect on MY reputation. But also I think I’m hard on myself and TOO STINGY with my meds. I need to take them more often instead of just suffering all the time.

I have my moments like yours – “Honestly, if I did not have the pain meds I seriously would consider taking my life. The quality of life living with that kind of extreme pain is not worth living to me.” I love life and I want to live, but I seriously think that some of our medical advancements to preserve life at all costs actually prolong suffering for a lot of people. On the other hand the advancements also lead me to hope that the NEXT treatment or medication down the road may be just what I need.
Sometimes I think it’s my curiosity that keeps me alive – although it killed the cat! Shows you just how perverse I can be!

—————–

Hey Henry! – I thought it was about time to tell you how much I enjoy your posts. You have a wicked sense of humor, dude! I don’t think my mother is quite as warped as yours, but she has her moments! When you decided not to answer the door to your spath, I could feel that panic attack! But you stayed strong – such a good example for us all!

Like you I usually don’t mind going out by myself to movies or lunch. But I was just feeling too pathetic to go out by myself on the holiday – wasn’t EVERYONE else going out with family or friends??!! You reminded me that sometimes you need to JUST DO IT!

I just have to laugh – was it Bob Dylan who said “If it wasn’t for bad luck I’d have no luck at all?”

Peace out!
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 10:44am
one_step_at_a_time says:

Pollyannanomore: this one has been at it for decades, long before the computer became a tool for her – telling bold face lies, faking letters and cards – internet is only a new tool.

Found out some more things about her earlier today – others who have tangled with her leaves little bits of info around about her. The internet is her ultimate tool – but it will also be the one that gets her in the most trouble.

Creating a bunch of folks is also ordinary for her. and in ‘my’ story total it was a total of 4 deaths (one i didn’t think of until the Attorney General pointed it out), three suicide attempts, 3 surgeries, 5 friends and family that i had email from (plus a whack of kids and dogs (who i never had email from …um, that’s both kids and dogs ) and COUNTLESS physiologicalthe meltdowns.

ahhh, i was about to say the phone cards alone must have cost here a fortune…..HAHAHAHA, another piece of lie just fell off me -SHE HAS UNLIMITED PHONE CALLING IN NORTH AMERICA!!! HAHAHAHAHA
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 11:45am
Donna Andersen says:

Hi Folks,

As you can see, we’ve updated the blog software. Still working out technical issues with “Recent Comments” feature. Hope to have it working soon.

Donna
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 12:13pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

7 steps: Given the blog glitches, I have just seen your post to me. thank-you!

I am glad you found lovefraud – that your understanding of your stepfather’s impact is becoming clear – that you have the opportunity to unravel those ties. Is he still alive?

I wish i had the money to pursue an investigation of the spath’s life. I would do it. Slowly and with balance – but I would definitely do it. She needs to be exposed, so that every time someone googles things like, ‘death blogger, ’sock puppets’, ‘fraud’, ‘did my internet lover really die’, ‘how to be safe on the internet’, etc. HER NAME APPEARS. (and not just caus ei’ve written a key word article, but because EVERYONE has.)

I have learned SO much about computers and the internet because of this experience. I went to sleep this am thinking: I really need a remailer…’

About giving info to the woman who IS suing her – i have been in touch with her, her lawyer and the Attorney General’s office and have given them info. I need to write an outline of times and events and get it to them.

I don’t doubt she will use my photos, probably as a bit player, cause i didn’t send her as much as might be needed for the central ‘character’ – AND THEY always seem to be male.

i have such a feeling about the photos she used in this scam – wanting to know who those folks are and give their lives back to them. this is, no doubt quite wed to the feelings i had for the main character, and ‘his’ image is connected to those feelings

writing the timeline and list of events for the lawyers is a bit hard for me – i can’t ‘engage with the story’ yet.

I told that f*cking story SO MANY TIMES WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING – it is ingrained in me as a TRUE story, where my feelings are very wrapped around caring for someone. First, when i came to know what was REALLY GOING ON, all i could say was: ‘blah, blah, blah’. Now, I see, in the last few days (quite triggered by reading a post of Kathllen Hawk’s) that the details of the story are starting to surface again. it cost me so much energy to say all that crap all the time – and i really need to conserve my energy. and i have had to work hard every day to remember that none of the folks in the drama are in trouble, need my love or support, cause it is ALL a lie.

deconstructing the con is ongoing. the more i know about who and what she really is the more grounded I feel.

But, there still is this chasm between the story and what I now know to be real. I think this is some form of protective denial – i can only process so much at a time. getting that he never, ever existed, that she did this on purpose, without remorse – this is the ongoing trauma of it – but I see that i am making progress –

and thank you for saying lolita is creepy – it was recently characterized in a radio report, as ‘being one of the ‘best written and important pieces of literature of the 20th c.’. May be tue, but NOT a WORD was mentioned about its SPATHINESS.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 1:45pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

I haven’t been n this thread all week, and I see that some people responded to my post. So I’m going to try to give a few responses in return.

pollyannanomore, your long post was very interesting. And I understand your resistance to more inner disruption. But the solution is actually a lot simpler. It’s getting past all those self-sacrificial rules you’re living with and become more familiar and responsive to your own feelings.

The gift of experience is that we see more clearly into the future, and you don’t want this experience to cause you to imagine that everyone who expresses interest in you is out to exploit you or harm you. Understandable, but the lesson here is not to reject everyone, but to be more careful. To let people prove themselves, and also know that you may make mistakes, and when you do, to back away. You back away on the strength of your own feelings, rather than consulting any rule. Which is why this recovery, among other things, is about learning to trust yourself.

blindsided31, I understand exactly how you feel. I told my ex to go away and he did, but I missed him desperately and painfully. I stopped missing him, when I finally realized that he was an avatar for what I wasn’t giving myself in my life. Or rather, I stopped missing him when I realized this whole mess was more about me than him, and started really working on what was going on with me.

Sociopaths are mirrors. In fact, they are perfect for us to project on. They are so much of what we aren’t. And so little of what we are. There’s just nothing standing in the way of us making them exactly what we always wanted.YOu’ve I don’t know if you can understand this, but I’m seeding it in your head now. What you love about him is what you fear you can never be alone. But it’s not true. You are all that, or you wouldn’t be able to recognize it in another person.

And he, you will realize one of these days, is not the man you love. He is a dream of wholeness. And he took advantage of your dream for his own selfish purposes. Try to get unconfused about this. You don’t love the bad man. You love what you imagined he was. He found out what you wanted and helped you imagine it, again for his own purposes. You don’t need him to be whole. You may need some help to get whole (and you will as you heal), but you are intrinsically real, whole, wise, courageous, and able. You just have to rediscover it in yourself and you will.

7steps, you’ve written some really amazing posts. I applaud the work you’re doing. However, I’m going to quibble over one little point. You wrote, “I have tried to undo this for the past five years. I have been vocal to everyone in my family how this behavior doesn’t even make sense.”

If you’re doing this, you’re analyzing and judging them. You’re focusing on them, not you, not telling them how you feel about it and what you want. And then drawing lines, explaining your line and why you’re doing it for your own sake, and then enforcing it.

You can’t get anywhere trying to influence a dysfunctional family by analyzing and judging them. (That is, trying to reason with them or using externally-based rules on them.) You have to be willing to make it about you. Knowing they they will call you selfish, insensitive and crazy. If you know about the “drama triangle,” you become the “perpetrator” because it’s the only way out of the victim-rescuer drama. If you stop playing, you become the bad guy. However, if you’re honest about your own feelings and needs, you inject a really powerful element into the triangle. That is authenticity. Over time, authenticity has an effect, and other people start connecting with you, because they want to talk honestly too about their feelings and needs.

When people are being honest, we have “real” material for relationship-building. Like when your mother shared that information from her past with you. Authenticity is actually a gift we give other people, but sometimes it takes them a while to recognize it. It’s also a lot of work for us, because we have to figure out how we really feel. You said in one post that your mother didn’t realize she hurt you. Obviously you should tell her, but telling her means figuring out what is really going on with you. What is the nature of the pain? And why are you feeling it. What need isn’t being met?

One of the reasons people don’t become honest is that they are terrified of what will happen. They’ve been trained to stuff their feelings or risk being punished or criticized. And so they do that to everyone else. Again, the only way to break this is to stop doing it, and become the model for another way.

As I said, don’t expect to be thanked for it at first. You’ll probably be ostracized initially. But you’ll know that you’re doing the right thing for you. And they’ll catch up with you when they do.

I hope this makes sense. I learned a lot of this by studying non-violent communication, and there are helpful lists of feelings and needs at http://www.cnvc.com. It’s compassion-based communication, but we have to be compassionate with ourselves first. That is the foundation of authenticity.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 9:19pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Bless you Miss Hawk,

this is the truth for me:
‘He is a dream of wholeness.’

I read one of your older posts about what the spath was for you, to you. I cannot write about it yet- but it is my experience also…

besos,
one step
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 9:41pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

One_step,

I’m so glad that made sense to you. I sometimes think it’s like crossing the great divide in our healing, when we realize that this is not about them. They were just triggers or symbols or teachers that showed up when we were ready. Not, of course, realizing we were ready, or we wouldn’t have to work so hard to figure out what this is really about. Like babies who don’t want to be born, saying “No thanks, I’ll stay where I am, if you don’t mind.”

I know I wrote the whole story of our relationship three separate times. I had vivid memories. But no way I could talk about this to anyone else. It drove me crazy. I was a writer. I was in PR. It was my job to find the story in the circumstances, to distill meaning out of bits and pieces of events, feelings, what happened and why. But all I could talk about was anecdotes. What he did. How awful it was. I couldn’t even say that he was wrong or bad, because there was a kind of terrible logic to his behavior. But there was also an inescapable, concrete reality in my pain. I couldn’t get away from how horrible I felt. I felt like a messed-up fool. And I was so embarrassed, so deeply and incurably humiliated, not just by him but by myself.

I was the queen of obsessive thinking, turning it over and over, looking at all the facts. Trying to understand him, me, the circumstances. (It all started at the height of the Internet boom, when I was making more money than I’ve ever seen in my life, and there was a kind of inevitability that a handsome, seductive and oh-so-plausible lizard would show up to see if I couldn’t be persuaded to give some of it to him.)

I wish I could remember exactly when I started to really take seriously the idea that he wasn’t the inevitable result of me getting rich, but the inevitable result of the way I’d been living my entire life. The fact that I had money made it about money. But when I didn’t have money, I was doing the same thing. Making myself important and non-expendible to people who I thought were stronger and smarter than me, that I “needed,” but who needed me to help them in ways that were so important to them that I made my life about them, deferred whatever I really wanted, until they got what they wanted, imagining that it would be my turn later. And I called this love. And I was so really good at it that I could make a living out of it, in PR, the profession for people who help other people achieve their dreams.

At first, I called him an “icon” for what was wrong with me. Later, I decided I liked the word “avatar” better. Because he was a living symbol of a whole complex of things. The rules of living that didn’t really support who I was and wanted to be. The ideas I had about how I couldn’t trust myself and wasn’t competent. The parts of myself that were undeveloped, and deeply valued in other people because I felt they were so different from me.

I had tried writing a few personal profiles on Yahoo and Match.com. I had made lists of what I was looking for. I started looking at them again in a new way. Someone who is comfortable with himself. Someone who knows what he wants. A sense of humor and a sense of fun. Someone who will create some adventure in my overworked life. Someone who will drag me away from my desk. Someone who is not afraid of life, and can see through people and circumstances to find his own next best steps. Someone who has dreams and commitments he takes seriously. Someone who thrives on enthusiastic support.

Oh boy.

At the time, I never could understand why I attracted so many men who seemed to think I was looking for a dominant, or other men who came on to me with “tender” and “gentle” words about how they understood that I needed more support and a man who could take care of the hard stuff for me. Fortunately, I had a visceral fear reaction to these types. Yes they were right, but no, I didn’t want more of that.

What I didn’t grasp at the time was something I read later. That I had to become what I wanted to attract. That I had to develop in myself all these things I wanted.

Thoughout my entire recovery process, I wrote letters to my ex. Mostly unsent (and those I sent with a final warning not to write me back if he didn’t want repercussions he wouldn’t like). But I kept talking to him, even though the “him” I was talking to was incomprehensible to him. Even when we were together, he was never able to to respond to anything I said or wrote to hm, as I imagined him to be. Later, much later, I realized that I wasn’t writing to him, but to the avatar of my lost self. I was writing to the parts of me that were still in darkness.

I sometimes write about this healing process as turning on the lights in parts of my psyche that were previously dark. They existed. They actually affected my life, but more from the subconscious level. And in fact, I think that the huge unmanagable attraction to this man was really about those aspects trying to break through. He was the epitome of selfishness and he was truly broken when it came to ability to trust or bond. But he also managed his life by what HE wanted. He was ruthless it about it, but he also made his life about his dreams, his values, his impulses, his needs. And that buried part of me was going “Look at this! See how he does it. Learn about how it works, the sacrifices you’ll have to make because everyone won’t like you when you’re not sweet and accommodating Kathy anymore, but what you might get out of it.”

I had to go back into my past to understand why I was behaving in such self-defeating ways, where I had developed my personal rules that were so totally geared to being safe because I believed I was so inadequate. And I had to undo the rules, and learn to trust myself and be willing to risk failure as part of working toward having and achieving anything I want. I had to accept that pain was part of living, and stop being so afraid of it.

All of this is one of the reasons I stopped calling him a sociopath (except here where it helps the dialogue along). I do believe he’s a seriously damaged person, and dangerous to the other seriously damaged people who fall in love with him. As far as I know, I’m the only one of his ex-girlfriends who came out of it very well. But that is also about the culture and our training, how hard it is, what a lot of courage it takes to realize that other people’s behavior is not about us, but that our lives and what we do with them is in our own hands. That all the rules we grew up with are not necessarily helpful. There may be helpful parts in them. But we are not only free, but obligated to figure out what works and what doesn’t for us. So that we can live healthy, coherent, fully realized lives.

So today, when I find myself remembering him with love, which I still sometimes do, I let myself feel it in all it’s piercing longing. And then, while it’s still fresh in my mind, I start taking it apart. What is it that I’m longing for? What did I imagine he was going to give me that I am not yet giving myself?

For me, usually, it comes down to needing someone to drag me away from my desk for a little fun. Or bring something to lighten me up and make me laugh. Or take care of some little mess or adminstrative business that’s starting to bother me. So I do a little more work of breaking the habits of being a victim, or I give the avatar a mental kiss and go out and have some fun.

This is the real reason I recognized him when he appeared in my life, and I welcomed him. I got the lesson. It was so hard to learn not because he was so awful, but because those old rules and beliefs were so entrenched. It took something that awful to convince me that I was not taking care of myself. And not using the full spectrum of feelings and capabilities that were built into me, including self-interest, focus on what I wanted, and endurance of loss and pain in the pursuit of what was important to me.

Nothing I hadn’t done before. But now I was clear that this was about me, not giving myself away so that other people would love me or keep me safe. Oh, they would. I wasn’t really losing anything in that respect. But they would for better reasons that made all of us feel better about ourselves. Respecting myself, expecting respect from other people, enjoying the process of unfolding relationships (not just jumping into instant happy endings), being deliberate and careful about figuring out what is meaningful and what is not, acting with courage when I decide what is right for me, being able live cheerfully with failure because it’s part of getting anywhere, these things change a life.

A long response, but hopefully relevent.

Kathy
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 11:03am
7stepstoheaven says:

Kathleen – I am repeating your quote because it has produced more than one lightbulb moment:

“You’ll notice them starting to divulge things with a kind of guilty pleasure long before they actually get a grip on the fact that you’ve changed the game in a good way.”

Kathleen – the “surprises” that have been coming from my mother’s mouth really are leaving me slack-jawed and glassy-eyed. Apparantly once the lightbulbs start going on you can never turn them off again.

As I said earlier, my mom recently remembered a story that provided me with some validation, when she told me that baby sister P had told her doctors that my mom was a cocaine abuser. This wasn’t true. Baby sister repeated this behavior years later, saying that I was an alcohol abuser and should be shunned by the family.

During this same conversation she said, “I remembered something my mother (my grandmother) said to me before I married STEPDEMON” (my stepfather).
At the time, I was nine, middle sister seven, and baby sister about 2 1/2. My grandmother was a sweet, blue-haired Southern lady of around 70. When she would take my sisters and I out she always wore a hat and little white gloves. She was always very sweet to us – much nicer than my mother was. My mother always perceived her as very naive, but I am wondering about that now. Now before I recollect this I must remind you that the stepfather sexually abused my youngest sister BEGINNING AT THE AGE OF THREE.

My mother said this to me, just 2 weeks ago – “You know, my mother told me before I married stepdemon, “You keep an eye on him around the little girls!”"

When I heard this part of my brain went into shock, I am not even kidding!

I said: “I didn’t think my grandmother would know about anything like that!”

My mom replied, “Well I knew what she meant but I didn’t believe it. I just scoffed at her when she told me that!”

This conversation took place in 1965 or ‘66.

HOLY FREAKING COW! I have just been awarded my Phd. at the college of knowledge!

pollyanna: “You also made a point about our abilities being different with different people – very true. Some people trigger unconscious reactions in us – I guess the knack now is trying to remain mindful and acknowledging what comes up in these situations – if we watch we can learn from it. I read a quote and I think it was from Freud – perhaps a better read member can correct if wrong!

“Individuation is the ability to remain yourself when around family.” It refers to the unconscious family scripts and roles we enact – you talked about being made the family scapegoat and the topic of gossip – all families have one somewhere to relieve the unspoken tensions that nobody else will name.”
———

Boy, is it ever apparent that you have been giving this some serious thought! This is like holding two completely opposite ideas within your brain without it exploding!

I think there are so many triggers and abuses where my mother is concerned that dealing with her will always be painful for me. And it is actually dangerous for me to trust anyone in my family, for they have demonstrated that they are perfectly willing to act detrimentally to my own best interests.

pollyanna: “Before, I would sit with the unsolvable puzzle of the relationship wondering why I couldn’t work the damned thing out when I was capable of achieving in every other area of life. It was like one of those russian puzzle rings – seven rings all intertwined and he threw them on the floor and left me to try and get them back together so they fitted as they needed to. Or like a rubiks cube – the relationships were all unsolvable because that is one of the things that kept us all hooked in. If I had realised long ago it was hopeless naturally I would have left – he dangled hope like a carrot in front of me and stupidly I kept reaching out for it.”

———-

The rubics cube – I swear that same thought went across my brain.
I was always confused because elsewhere in my life I would just tackle a problem with either brains or brawn and and it would eventually yield. I was stubborn, obstinate, persistent, and it usually worked. Everything you’ve been taught to do you throw at this problem until you have nothing more to throw. And then you give up, and feel like a failure.

Kathleen: “I was the queen of obsessive thinking, turning it over and over, looking at all the facts. Trying to understand him, me, the circumstances.”

If you are the queen of this I am the supreme universal overlord!!
So yes I could very well remain myself with family – the angry hurting betrayed self!! And a big part of this is the 10 years I spent with my stepfather not knowing that the relationship was a lie. Age 10 to 19.
The whole foundation of a relationship with my surrogate father was based on lies and complete ignorance as to who he actually was. I wasn’t a grownup when this happened, I had barely left home. It’s difficult to face the facts as an adult who went into an exploitative relationship, but I had not even made that choice. I thought my stepfather loved me! He treated me better than my mother did most of the time.

pollyanna: “I had a friend who did that – he wasn’t handsome but had a pic of a model up as his own. As we conversed over time, it became clear to me that he was lying about himself and hiding elements of his life – told me several fake names and made out he had a bad experience with another woman online who tried to ruin his career – high profile and supposedly he was protecting himself. In the end up I had to delete him and end contact – I just can’t be associating with liars anymore.”
——–

Back to the themes of true identity, false identity, personal photos and the internet. I have not really felt safe in putting photos up. I have been telling myself that it’s just because I don’t have any good ones, but that is not really it. I just feel too exposed, I cannot put my pics up because I KNOW the predators are out there. On my facebook page I put up the photo of a beloved pet. People ask me “Well why on earth wouldn’t you put a nice photo up?” It is difficult to answer that without sounding like a paranoid nut.

It HAS allowed me to reconnect with some great people I had lost touch with. But my brother’s ex broke into his account 2 weeks ago and sent a nasty letter to his GF – who did not know he was still married. Last week I went on to the fb account – which I wasn’t really comfortable having up at all, took out almost EVERY scrap of info in my profile, made everything else private, even my email address. People can send me messages. They are only going to get more info if I know who they are, and even that is at my discretion, not in my profile. I will NEVER EVER share pictures with the world.

Same thing with my dating site account. Just uploaded a crappy pic I took with my cell phone. People put up pics with their friends and relatives. I would NEVER do that. Many many people have instantly closed me out because they don’t take a second look at the picture. I think, goodbye and good riddance, a$$holes! It is very hard to know what you know and still react in any kind of normal way in the world. People talk about how it’s not trusting to do background checks on someone you are dating. NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT!! Too bad if you think that’s a terrible thing to do – you must have something to hide!!

pollyanna – “The guy had english as a second language and had rather unique phrases he used so I was able to recognise them quite quickly and there were definite anomalies in the way he used english. I called him on it and confronted him demanding he put up his cam so I could see who he was in moving action. COnveniently he responded his cam was broken – I told him I didn’t believe him and outlined my theory that he was the deleted friend, which he strenuously denied. It made no odds to me – I cussed him and deleted him.”
——

You are one smart cookie with a rubics cube!!! Way to take ‘em DOWN!

I pretty much assume that ANYTHING ANYONE says to me AT ANY TIME could be a lie. It’s a hard and disturbing way to live but it’s the only way I can go. How do you go on protecting yourself while at the same time not approach everything in your life fearfully??

And Kathleen YES I read your post about coming to trust ourselves and make better decisions etc. I would love to be in that place. I truly don’t kow if it is at all possible. When I have reached out with the olive branch I just get more reasons why I will be abused and taken advantage of. If people are toxic to me why would I even want to keep putting myself out in the line of fire? I did trust my middle sister, until suddenly I couldn’t. They act like they are catually ENJOYING the pleasure of hurting me. It doesn’t matter to me anymore how much they change – because they are obviously capable of deliberarely causing another person pain.

It may be about me and the healing I need to do – but it doesn’t change the fact that I would be stupid to EVER trust them again. I am finally getting a clue. My needs would be better met elsewhere.

There are so MANY MANY things in your post which are relevant to my experience. To think of them all at once will make my head explode.
But earlier you were talking about recognizing the “bad” people. I am now realizing that they are the ones who are bad. They are the ones that did the hurtful things. I thought maybe I had done something to deserve it. Now I know that’s not true. I have to make this step to get back some semblance of the boundaries I never had.
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 2:14pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Great post, 7steps, and once again a tiny little quibble.

You wrote: “And Kathleen YES I read your post about coming to trust ourselves and make better decisions etc. I would love to be in that place. I truly don’t kow if it is at all possible. When I have reached out with the olive branch I just get more reasons why I will be abused and taken advantage of. If people are toxic to me why would I even want to keep putting myself out in the line of fire? I did trust my middle sister, until suddenly I couldn’t. They act like they are catually ENJOYING the pleasure of hurting me. It doesn’t matter to me anymore how much they change – because they are obviously capable of deliberarely causing another person pain.”

I never suggested holding out the olive branch to people who clearly don’t know how to treat each other respectfully. I said to withhold your trust and love until people earn it. Or alternately, give it conditionally — just as much as you feel that they deserve, in the sense of being trustworthy or able to return your love.

I do understand that there’s some larger ideal at work here. Wouldn’t it be nice if everything in the family supported each other and go along? But that ideal turns into one of the “rules” that has more to do with self-sacrifice than taking care of yourself, unless you know for sure that you’re dealing with people who respect, appreciate, understand and feel compassion towards you. From a totally practical perspective, why would you invest in people who have a history of making you feel bad?

I do understand the deep desire for a home to come home to. My history of giving up what I wanted, giving up telling the truth, and feeling responsible for everyone else’s feelings began in my family. Not just when I was younger. When I was in my 20s and came back from living for five years in Europe, nearly a decade after tried to protect my little sister by confronting my father about the incest in front of my mother and a minister who’d agreed to sit in on the meeting, I tried to bring it up with her. She told me that my father had told her it was my fault, and she believed him, and if I wanted a relationship with her, I’d have to never discuss it again. And you know, I decided to “forgive” them and acquiesced for almost two more decades, just to have a family, until I finally called them and told them I wasn’t taking the rap for this any more, and if they wanted a relationship with me, they were going to have to face the reality that a 13 year old girl would not seduce her father, and even if she did, he was the responsible adult and he was the predator.

So believe me, I know about what we do to be able to maintain the illusion of having a family that cares about us. And especially, especially if we never had that kind of family in the first place, how powerful the dream of family can be. And because we were not trained by our families to care about ourselves, to stand up for ourselves, to expect other people to treat us with respect and compassion, we go on to try to take all the responsibility for making everything okay with everyone else in our lives. And get our hearts broken over and over when they don’t seem to understand the sacrifices we are making for them.

But 7steps, eventually we have to come to understand that what we learned at home was not for our benefit, but for other people’s. And that we deserved better. Just because we are alive, if for no other reason, we have a right to take care of ourselves for ourselves, to speak what is true for us, to judge carefully what we will and will not accept in our lives, and to enforce whatever is important for our self-esteem, our sanity, and our ability to not just survive, but to be creative and active producers of whatever our lives are about.

If they don’t love or support or respect you, it doesn’t mean that you aren’t loveable or entitled to support and respect. It means that you’re not getting it from them. And the reasons have nothing to do with you.

One of the turning points in my healing — and I had some serious work to do on even believing that anyone would really love me or I was even welcome in the world — was when I had the astonishing idea that I deserved to be loved. When it came up in my mind, I wondered if I’d finally gone crazy. I brought it to my wonderful Buddhist friend, who knew the history with my ex, and he said gravely, “But Kathy, you can’t force people to love you.” Which was exactly the right thing, because it made me realize what I really meant. And I said to him, “No, but I can run my life like I deserved to be loved. I can choose people who are capable of loving me or anyone else, rather than wasting my time on people who aren’t. I can run my life as though I love me.”

That was a moment when a lot of fireworks went off in my mind. It didn’t matter whether anyone in particular welcomed me, understood me, respected me, loved me or whatever. It mattered that I treated myself that way. It was my job to live as though I expected to be treated well. And if I wasn’t treated well, to not waste time or energy there, but go find better places and people who were able to recognize me and appreciate me for who I was. I wasn’t garbage. I wasn’t nothing. I was a good, smart, hard-working, generous, dependable person, and I wanted to be around people who not only respected that, but were like that themselves.

As far as the family went, there was a lot of initial anger and rejection. Who did I think I was? It didn’t last long. My truth shook the whole family to their foundations, and they started getting more honest and, as they stopped holding up the whole edifice of lies, more compassionate with each other. (Except my father, who was a full-blown sociopath.) It was too late to change a lot of things that were in motion. My brother died early from complications of his addiction, but he became a better father in the meantime. My mother died feeling like she’d failed as a mother, no matter how much we tried to relieve her. If she’d just lived a few more years, she would have been witness to the recovery of several of her children and hopefully have shared in it herself.

But 7step, these changes began with me drawing a line. Telling them all that if they wanted a relationship with me, I had conditions. That I was no longer participating in their lies. That I was not going to be a victim or a scapegoat. And if they wanted me in their lives, they were going to have to respect my reality. They didn’t have to agree with it, but don’t expect me to hide what I think and feel if I’m around them.

Would you call that an olive branch? I wouldn’t. The olive branch — me forgiving my father for incesting me and my mother for believing I was at fault — was just an invitation to lie about me some more and make me a scapegoat for what they couldn’t deal with. What made a difference was when I said, “You want me? You earn it.” And if they didn’t want me, that was up to them. Because it wasn’t worth it to me to keep trying to be a good daughter and sister, if this is what I got back.

I hope this makes sense. I know you’re working on some hard stuff right now. I’m not telling you this to make it harder. But to help you get to a position that will begin to create the life you want. As I said before, it’s not going to make you popular right away. But it will create real relationships, if it’s possible to create them.

Kathy
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 3:47pm
fahrahri says:

oh no!!you all were right…i had a post on here last nite or in the last couple days that i was struggling with questioning if he was really a sociapath because he stopped the calls etc…

well …today he just got to me with a long message of he misses me etc …i thought it was too quite…and i am just trying to stay away from responding …luckily my gf was available and i have to get ready to meet friends in awhile for dinner…i have to stay on trac…cuz this is all so new and raw…

oh god!
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 5:29pm
DancingWarrior says:

Kathy,

I like this in your post to 7step: ““No, but I can run my life like I deserved to be loved. I can choose people who are capable of loving me or anyone else, rather than wasting my time on people who aren’t. I can run my life as though I love me.”

I still feel dependent that I still want to settle for a little bit of love rather than risk having no one in my life who cares about me. I wake up with a feeling of dread when I imagine my future w/out my husband. It sounds nice to nurture myself, love myself, or enliven myself, but I long for a man’s love.

And thus my stuckness in a relationship that broke due to lack of respect and giving and compassion.

DW
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 7:05pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

fahrahri and Dancing Warrior,

You’re both saying very much the same thing. Where you are right now is very okay. It is raw for both of you. And you don’t have to worry about all this right. Think of it, maybe, as a voice from your own future.

Right now, the biggest and most important thing you have to deal with is staying NC. It’s like you’re detoxing from an addiction, and the more distance you can put between you and the source of your pain, the better and stronger you’ll feel.

I’ve mentioned before that I almost wish we had little emoticons to say where we were, or maybe just how long we’ve been at this. I’m nearly seven since the day I threw my ex out of my life. I’m not sure how far into it 7steps or pollyannanomore, but I know they’re pretty far down the road.

Take care of yourself, both of you. I mean, be kind. Find things that make you feel better. Friends are good. So are bubble baths and music. Above all, you are learning to be your own best friend right now.

Big hugs and thumbs up to both of you. You’re doing great.

Kathy
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 7:31pm
recovering says:

Kathleen Hawk: I wholeheartedly agree with your point that our healing evolves when we realize that this is not about them — as you said, “They were just triggers or symbols or teachers that showed up when we were ready. Not, of course, realizing we were ready, or we wouldn’t have to work so hard to figure out what this is really about. Like babies who don’t want to be born, saying “No thanks, I’ll stay where I am, if you don’t mind.”

As you said, in coming to trust ourselves we are in a better position to make better decisions. We are blessed, and become a blessing to ourselves.
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 7:36pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Kathleen,
your post to me is copied and pasted. read and reread.

this next bit is the ’story’, without editorial about what i know to be true now:
‘M’ (the beauty boy aspect of the spath) was revealed overtime as having multiple personalities. the first, the early 20’s wild submissive, the second, a even younger girl. With words and life to support each. complex, nuanced words and stories; a mind so fascinating as to hold no anger for anyone. and much abuse in the past and much reason for anger and yet no anger – seeing it as useless. and when i first mentioned ire at some situation, he said, “i like how conflict brings out the fantasy violence in you.” and right there a superhero name was born. and we talked about her – and i realized that she IS part of me. and the longer the boy and i were togehter, the more she started to have space in my life.
I started to write a secret blog – her life. her mythic life as i related to him and his bf. and she knew the bf was bad news long before one step giving all more than reasonable doubt, knew.
She wove around through my history – and i saw that she wouldn’t have existed if i hadn’t lived as a dyke, and yet she seemed to not have a sense of orientation, beyond liking and wanting this boy – and being a loner. She was tattooed and knife wielding; knew what she wanted simlpistically, loved the boy WILDLY, had no things and saw the landscpae as shore and dunes and would pack a horse at the wiff of stupid – she was a avatar.

She is MY avatar. Brought to life by my being with him. And I MISS HER, AND I MISS HIM.

The day he died, she got very very drunk. He spoke in an irish patois – her speech was infiltrated by those round rolling ‘a’s (they still come at times) as she spoke to him more than anyone else during her day.

My friend came to get me very early – she brought me rum and tequilla, and we toasted his death in the woods, and i fell against her sobbing, weak at the knees. I gathered my sleeping bag, my money, my knife and my hat – and my friend drove me to the land i rew up on. And i drank – bare chested in the sun, drank till i puked in the dry riverbed. I walked up the slope to the burying tree and sat on my knees, looking out over the field, mind numbing, i feel over into the pine needles and lay until the sun went down.

i crawled back to my sleeping bag- unfurled on the stones and watched for the first shy star of the night – him. in the sky. stellar boy. gone.

……………….there is much more. but all i can do for now.
The avatar – she has been at times numb, drunken (although I am not drinking), fearful, knife raised and whilring, protecting herself….
most days when i ask after her – she is not well.
yet.
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 8:39pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

one_step, I’m sleepy, just moving from the couch to bed, and checked in for a moment, found your post.

You have written a beautiful story here, about shared creativity and the grief of losing a partner in that creativity. It reminds me a lot of the larger-than-life quality of my marriage to my second husband, the alcoholic poet who died. I feel for you.

At the same time, I’m not sure we’re talking about the same thing when we use the word avatar. We might be, but I’m thinking not. This part of you is not buried in your subconscious, but more unused for lack of opportunity. You are willing to bring this out of yourself for the right partner or the right circumstances. My avatar was someone else because I really did not know I had these characteristics in mself, or was even allowed to have them.

All that said, we might well be talking about the same thing, and I’m just too sleepy to understand.

What I do know, however, that this is a wonderful story and you’re a fabulous writer. You should write it.

Kathy
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Monday, 4 January 2010 @ 11:37pm
one_step_at_a_time says:

Kathleen – yes, I understand re definition of avatar – will pursue when i am more awake also. I onlyhad time to respond to a small piece of our post…there is more. It was very provocative for me.

it was larger than life – and that is how i am happiest (although i am reevaluating the stress on my system created by ‘larger than life’) I do not know about your husband, but perhaps over time i will.

there is a very seductive quality to the writing of, and about this story – I have my avatar’s writing and journal entries, also. And right now I can write little pieces of this story at a time; I do not want to be seduced by the quality of it.

it is most important that i keep grounding myself in the REALITY behind what was for me, a love story.

All I have wanted for the last few years was a partner in creativity. I am so sad to lose him.

It is so weird – he is she and she is spath….

but he was laughter and creativity and playing with words and laughing and playing and laughing…and wanting.

sob.
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Tuesday, 5 January 2010 @ 12:03am
pollyannanomore says:

One Step – I lost my creative partner too – I am sorry you are going through all this. Please believe me there is another out there somewhere for you – one that will be much better because it will be an authentic person rather than a lie. Don’t let your own creativity slide because of this – that was real – it was the person on the other end that wasn’t. You can still create by yourself to get your esteem for your own work up again and in time the right person will come along and respect what you have done alone. It sucks huh?
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Wednesday, 6 January 2010 @ 3:57am

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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 15 – Comfort and Joy

199 Comments to “After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 15 – Comfort and Joy”

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