LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Trying to expose the sociopath made matters worse for me
PDF Editor’s note: Lovefraud received the following from a reader who we’ll refer to as “Tanya.”
I was 35 when I met my sociopath — we’ll call him Dave. I was in a top twenty graduate business program — a magnet for narcissists and sociopaths, by the way! A culture that so prizes appearances, financial accumulation, and power must seem irresistible to people with those disorders.
Dave seemed so great at first — attentive, interesting, intelligent, open, honest, fun. My friends warned that he was too flirty but I only took that as a sign that he was desirable and, hey, I won him over when others had failed.
We were off and on for a few months — the usual drama of dating a pure sociopath took its toll right away. He did very scary things early on, like drink and drive, show up at my door in the middle of the night, call a dozen times a night, etc. etc. In the alcoholic daze that is your typical business school culture, his behavior didn’t stand out as much as it might in real life but it really should have at the time.
Finally we broke it off completely. Then one night I got a call from him — he was in Brazil on holiday (he lived there for a few years before coming to Business School) — and he was calling to tell me that he was engaged to a girl he’d met there. He put her on the phone so that she could be reassured that he was no longer involved with me. I thought it was crazy, but in my own attempts to CONTROL the crazy (always the first mistake), I took it upon myself to tell his friends at school about the call. I framed it like “Congratulate Dave! He tells me he’s engaged!” He was furious with me when he came back and his friends no doubt thought I was insane.
Later, his “fiance” called me a few times trying to find him. I “googled” her name on my computer— again in an attempt to control the crazy — and found that he had been emailing her from my computer during the time we were dating. Then I found emails he had sent to a sex tourism site called Club Hombre. Over the previous two or three years, he had posted HUNDREDS of emails to this site, explaining his sexual exploits with prostitutes all over the world. His “fiance” was a prostitute. On the boards, he talked a lot about having unprotected sex with prostitutes in Rio and Turkey (both high HIV areas).
I was so petrified. I went to the school clinic and explained my situation. The nurse told me that I had a one in thirty two chance of having HIV and I had to wait a week for test results to come back (thankfully, negative). During that week I went to my school counselor (a 27 year old kid new on the job) and tried to explain my situation. I brought in print-outs of the postings Dave had made to the sex site, and a note from the clinic explaining the risks he had exposed me to. I wanted to somehow get this guy on record before he put other women in our school at risk, even if it meant humiliating myself. The counselor was skeptical. He asked me if I wanted to file a restraining order and I said “no”. I thought that would only make things worse.
As per procedure, he had to bring Dave in as well. When he asked Dave if HE wanted to file a restraining order, Dave said “yes”! So, as a reward for my efforts to work within the system, I got a restraining order filed against ME for harassing DAVE. One of the worst days of my life.
That was three years ago, and I still definitely bear the scars of the experience. I try to put the details out of my mind and, even as I read this, I can’t believe it happened.
I do my best to not fault myself for getting involved in the first place. As so many others on your site have said, I was behaving normally in an abnormal situation. What I DO fault myself for is trying to CONTROL the crazy. Every time I tried to control it and expose him, I only made things worse for myself. The true trauma wasn’t the stuff that happened between me and him, but the stuff that happened when I tried to expose him to others. It was so awful to see how easily sociopaths can bend the system to their will. Before then, I believed I lived in a just, fair world and that I could trust the system to protect me when I needed it. After Dave, I know now that I have to protect MYSELF.
When I’m philosophical about it, I just think that it’s only human to want to believe that we live in an ordered, just world. We want to believe it so much that we ignore the disorder and unfairness RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, and this blind spot is where the sociopath functions. I’m so thankful that I emerged with much less damage than some others. I only wish that there was a way to constructively deal with this — to raise awareness about sociopathy in the same way that people raise awareness about cancer or drug abuse.
Thank you again for your site — it was cathartic to share my story.
written by Lovefraud Reader • Permalink •
Matt says:
witsend:
Suspect the friend will send him packing after a month or two and you (lucky you) will have him back in your hair until his next takeoff.
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Matt says:
Rosa:
Or Jeep Wagner. Or is that Jeep Wagoneer?
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witsend says:
Matt,
That has certainly crossed my mind.
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Rosa says:
Matt:
And, Robert Wagner was the actor on “Hart to Hart” in the 90′s….so I think that about covers the Wagners (and Wagoneers).
Glad I asked.
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ErinBrock says:
Matt:
it’s nice to know you have a ‘wagner’ singing puppy…..
Where’d you find him…..per Kathleen, I am seriously looking around the shelters too for a puppy that sings…..opera!
Maybe i’ll be lucky and find one that drives a jeep wagoneer also!
I have very low expectations…..
And I like……Erin Go Braugh…..
It has the hawaiian pigeon twang accent to it ……not getting the irish accent….but whatever you say…..I think a Sociopath would love it!
Matt, it sounds like, at very least you can have some fun with your brother….watching him scramble and be nice to ya……back him into that corner….and play wagner for him as punishment!
You might just find he is an authorized user on the account.
I ran a credit report on s ex’s grandmother after gramps passed…..Gram had asked me to sort out her finances….so started with the credit report to see what she had ‘out there’ …..there was lot’s of family that had ‘borrowed’ money and loans with huge interest rates with min. monthly payments that she could have paid for the rest of 10 persons lives….
The family was not so thrilled with me doing this….(she asked), but I never judged them because I was only looking out for grams best interest. There was NOTHING at stake for me….(it was s ex’s grandmother).
they basically ‘borrowed’ their inheritance.
I finally asked her…..grams, you have 700K in the bank….sitting….why are you paying monthly interest on CC’s and wierd loans? I paid them all off, and told her all she needed was one visa card to pay for RX’s over the phone.
she gladly agreed. Her ‘kids’ had so many CC’s and loans out there was NO WAY she could keep track of them all.
It was only when hubby died and she felt she needed to get ‘organized’ that she wanted to know her financial condition.
NO WONDER None of s ex’s family speaks to me…….I KNOW TOO MUCH!!!!
I’m going to wait a few ‘days’ to send the letter to the bitch….why the rush?
I really am shocked he’s not withdrawn from the case…..as he refused service of the extnsion hearing order back in July….and told my attorney he wanted ‘out from under this guy’…..
I think he’s bending over for someone else connected to the S. He took the case for a ‘favor’.
Poor guy….it was his first FL case…..what a case to get thrown out of the shoot with…..a client like the lying S.
I’d love to take him to lunch……
BTW….I didn’t go to the judge….I had some inside info and wanted the timing to be right for sending the letter….
He can take me back to court if he so pleases…..I don’t think a judge would have an issue with what I did…..and if so…..no worries there either.
IF he wants to pay his attorney to sue me for a $1500 dollars worth of items…..for the point…..have at it homey…..go braugh is ready to go!
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ErinBrock says:
WITS:
Hang in there girl……you already know the outcome here.
Take this time to recoup YOU…..and take a breather.
XXOO
EB
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henry says:
Off Topic but here goes. My youngest son (30) is sick and in some po hunk hospital of his wifes choice. Was diagnosed with pancreaitis and diabetes. He is overwieght, has poor eating habit’s and drinks too much beer. I called him and told him this was God talking to him and he had to change his life style. And to get out of that small town hospital and get to a specialist in OKC. He was out of it, so I talked to his wife with same concerns. Now they dont want me preaching to them and to back off they have it under control. Never have had a great relationship with his wife, but have always been polite. She is catholic and he did that conversion thing to marry her. She does not approve of my life style. She is a child pyhscologist. He also has a good job and good insurance, I just want the best for him. My son has a daughter from another girl (A) and she lives close and wants me to visit and such. But out of respect for my son and his wife I have not formed a close relationship with (A). But have decided that if I want to spend time with my grandaugther I will have to do it on my own, by getting involved with (A). I am pissed, worried and mad at him. I think his wife has influenced him, and not in my favor. On the other hand I have my older son and his wife that I adore and she adores me. And his wife includes me in everything concerning my grandsons, school, church functions etc. I guess I should of kept my mouth shut….
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henry says:
told him this is not Dad talking to you but GOD… just wanted to clarify that remark
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ErinBrock says:
Henry:
This is a toughie……
Your the rock in a hard place….here…..
We have learned….you can’t get people to do what YOU want them to do…..regardless of your intentions….
That wouldn’t stop me though from expressing my opinions…..for better healthcare etc….
It’s not like your telling him how to raise his children…..
Maybe just express your love and concern for him and give him names of great hospitals/Drs in his area that specialize in this condition.
And….offer to take the kids…..take a burden off her…play really, really nice….and she may warm up…..she’s gonna need support during this worrying time…..
Any chance to bond during this crisis?
So sorry for your worry hens…..I’d sure let you come take care of me daddy-O!
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henry says:
EB I could decorate your house and landscape your yard – what else do you need sugar? The son I am talking about has one daughter by another girl, his wife has no children, she is a great step mom to my granddaughter but makes no effort to include me, that is why I think I will get involved with the mother of my granddaughter. Do I make sense? Am I just to f – in sensitive?
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ErinBrock says:
Okay….heres the deal…..stay away from my interior design….I do that part…..but together we can look for paint cans in the yard as we re-do the landscape all spring…..we can chat as we work and solve ALL the problems of the world!!!
Just make sure you don’t have a pacemaker….because teh metal detector could mess with it……and maybe send you hospital packin.
Wouldn’t want that! huh?!
Okay….so I get the picture now…..baby from another mama……
Ya know what….it’s YOUR G. daughter….so do whatever you f-in want to have a relationship……it’s none of the new wifes business……who/how/when you have a relationship with YOUR grandaughter…..
If she doesn’t like it….then she can include you too!
It might not be the best time currently to ask your son to include you…..in gd’s time with them…..
maybe invite them over to dinner when the girly is visiting dad….Easter…..whatever……hone in on the times with her pops…..and do something fun…..or at least attempt it…..if your shut down still…..
THEN INVITE THE EX over with the daughter for Easter or Birthday celebrations or just a BBQ.
Yes you make sense……
Take ONE bite at a time though hens……one bite…and chew…..
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henry says:
thanks for the input EB gonna to bed goodnite
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pollyannanomore says:
One Step= here is an idea for the a**hole landlord and that is to threaten to call in the media – no landlord wants newspaper reporters hanging around them investigating what is going on and believe me with your health conditions you would make it a compelling story.
Matt – I laughed at your fa la la la la la at the end of the post! And the Wagner singing dog – Erin’s definitely in the market for a musical pooch, but wait wasn’t it Oxy who suggested it? Maybe she knows where there is a litter of virtuoso labs?
Henry … sorry about your son. I met an old professor the other day who looks absolutely amazing since I last saw him 2 yrs ago – he’s dropped 19 kilos and his eyes are bright and he’s burning with energy. I asked him his secret and he explained his wife was diagnosed with terminal cancer so he researched lots of diets and eventually got some info on alkaline eating – not a diet as such but more of a lifestyle move. He lectured in science ed so is more than capable of working out which studies are good and which aren’t – he was won over by it and said it is based on good solid science. He said there is some research that alkaline eating not only reverses diabetes but can also regenerate the pancreas and restore it to perfect health.
I had a colleague who had pancreatitis a few yrs ago – she had diabetes also, but her’s was very advanced and the next predicted stage for her was pancreatic cancer and no hope. You did the right thing speaking up – even if your son is grumpy with you, he’ll appreciate it if he gets some info to help him survive.
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OneAndOnlyMe says:
Thanks to all good people for your “welcome” input. This is a bumpy road, but I feel it getting smoother already for 2010. My P is 2000 miles away in Florida, but still attempting to mess with my brain, ie., expensive Christmas gift arriving with no card and no Christmas call. My good luck however is that I sleuthed around and discovered he currently has a female “gender not so specific” proctologist supporting him after he lost his job. Thank God it’s not me…I would not let that happen at least. However, he did manage to convince me for several months that I was the “only one” as in not using protection…just a little something to keep me up at night! But I’m learning!
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imfree says:
hello, I am new to this post, just wanted to share that sometimes the best thing that you can do is expose the psychopath, let them know that you know, hope they find someone else, and get some witnesses around you so they can also witness their bizarre behavior.
They will rant and rave and threaten you, make your life
worse than it already is,
Somehow. once they know that you know, it’s not as thrilling anymore to them, they get bored easily always looking for
new thrills, My psycho made my life a living hell, I fought back, and won….you can too, but it’s not easy, she came after me with a knife, stabbed me in the eye with a crystal wand, smashed my cat in the face and knocked 4 teeth out,
got me arrested, put a restraining order against me, harrassed, threatened, after all the pain, and misery
she wanted to know if I wanted to be her Valentine. Is that messed up, or what, I sent her a list of all her traits, told her she was a psycho bitch, took my phone off the hook, bought a bottle of champagne, took my dog, and left my house
lucky me, she found somebody else. I’m 52 had cataract surgey, 9 dental implants, a record, a broken pc, and much more.
Was it worth it, Yes, Now I’m Psycho free,
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Stayingsane says:
imfree
So glad you are free. I’m sickened by the ‘list’, she seems to be one P who enjoys inflicting injury.
I suppose the only good thing about that is, the evidence is in your face literally and it’s easier to reach the conclusion this person is dangerous, I want out. It sounds like a living hell, full of countless cruelties…all the better to get way from…
It makes me glad I didn’t fight back, I could have taken him to court. He robbed me of a large sum of money, given in good faith for a building project we shared.. He squandered the money, Dating women and pretending the project was his etc. puffing himself up to neighbours who subsequently let me know what he was doing. They were disgusted and supported me in the end.
I was set to take him to court. But I had a nauseating feeling about it. He seemed excited about me going to the trouble of getting him. His family also seemed animated and excited.
I realise now, they were all excited because this is what they needed. To be stopped. battled with….it was too easy for them and they were bored! The P was turned on by me coming after him! because the attention was his again. My precious loving energy wasted on a P???? He would have crushed me like a bug at every obstacle. I saw clearly he did not care about me or my feelings….he did not care if they came after him or not, in fact he was energized by the high profile and lastly I feel by ignoring him and breaking ALL CONTACT (5 months now) he is left slightly puzzled.
His sister sent me a New Year Text goading me with Taunts about forgiving the past now and having no regrets…..this is a taunt designed to fire me up again. My body is in flames (temperature, cough, rash, fever, nausea) but I will not rise to the bait. I will wade it through with dignity. NO CONTACT and that means sneaky family members or anyone who knows him!
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free-at-last says:
Hi, Imfree! I am new here too. Just made first few posts within the last few hours. EXPOSURE is a tricky subject. My P is not violent so much but is HELLA revengeful in the most devious ways. Reporting to child protective services. Calling landlord or job. Calling relatives. Even IRS. Making false reports of theft. ETC ETC ETC.
We have split 3 times in 9 years and it never ceases to amaze me what his devilish mind can come up with to cause me more heartache.
He is so CHARMING. Trained authorities take his word over mine. I am usually distraugt over matters and he is always so calm. IT seems to me that they (authority peeps) ought to have more training to recognize p’s. Judges, cps peeps etc etc.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Stayingsane, I think you make a great point about not feeding their hunger for attention (and the jollies they get out of feeling like they’ve managed to pull the wool over someone else’s eyes, such as in legal battles). There’s a big difference between telling them privately that we see through them and we’re not playing their game anymore and bringing other people — whether it’s family or the legal system — into it.
Which doesn’t mean that sometimes we don’t have to. If we have to get protective orders, divorce them, fight for child custody, go to court to recover financial assets, then we’re forced to take them on in public. And not just fight with facts, but deal with their lies and attempts to discredit us. It’s many times the work to fight a sociopath in pubic, and whether we win doesn’t, unfortunately, always depend on the strength of our case but also on overcoming the naivete of the people who make the judgments.
It’s why — if we have the choice — simply cutting them out of our lives, and eliminating their “supply” of our attention (including our anger and grief) is the best thing we can do. For convincing them to look elsewhere, because they will go find another source. And for ourselves, to break our own pointless habits of interacting with them at all, because we imagine that our words could influence them to behave better.
As I’m writing this, I remember how powerfully I wanted to let my ex know how I felt about what he’d done to me. And unlike some of the wiser and more self-disciplined people here, I did that. And had the dubious pleasure seeing him rework my feelings into short stories (published in magazines) he wrote about women who couldn’t get over their ex-boyfriends. Yuck.
They are what they are, and they don’t change. The sooner we realize that our healing is about us — taking better care of ourselves, rebuilding our lives, taking the lessons out of our experiences to become more vital and happier people — the better.
And I’mfree, I too am so glad you got away, had the presence of mind to get some witnesses, and just shut down her supply of attention. It sounds like you went through hell, but made it out. Welcome to LoveFraud.
free-at-last, you are so right about the need for more training in the legal system. As you’ve figured out (and you can read some great materials on this in ErinBrock’s post and also under her old name ErinBrockavitch), how you present yourself makes a lot of difference.
Maybe if would be helpful for you to understand that getting you upset is part of the fun for them. At one point, my ex threatened to take me to court for sexual harrassment in order to get money from me, which was so outrageous that it finally broke through my depression and grief, and made me laugh. I told him to go for it; I couldn’t wait to get on the stand and tell this story. He didn’t bring it up again, and I think it was because he was worried about what I would say. They depend on everyone else playing by the rules, and if we start to act like them, it really sets them back on their heels. Again, read Erin’s posts. You might find them helpful.
Kathy
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ErinBrock says:
Free:
I’ts about knowing your Cluster B and what ‘works’ for them….
AND DUPLICATE IT!!!!
You stated, he is so calm when speaking with authority….hence he is believed…..
Well…he’s giving you the recipe of what WORKS!!!!
Some people are so reluctant to ‘change’ and say….well….that’s not me, and that’s not what I want to become……
Well….it’s about the balance….if you have to fight a sociopath in court, children/custody/ and not get buried financially……
YA GOTTA FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE>…….
Strike unexpectadly….calmly, stealthly……ya gotta be just as sneaky and conning as him……when your dealing with him…..
I would discuss this BECOMING A SOCIOPATH (me) with my therapist…….he continually reminded me to NEVER FORGET who I am. Keep balanced, but fight the battle HOW I must…..
He totally agreed when I embarrased revealed to him some of my tactics…..
NO, it doesn’t feel right, normal or okay…..but trust me….when you start seeing results, you’ll see it pay off and be okay with it….
It’s all about ending the business side of the relationshiop with as little damage on your side as possible……
He’s looking at it as…..It’s either YOU or HIm…..and it’s gonna be him…..
You need to look at it the same way….except….it’s gonna be YOU!!!
Don’t expect him to ‘like’ it…..it ain’t about him….fuck him…..
He views you this way!!!
Listen to my theme song…..on Youtube….
By lily allen…..it’s called Fuck YOU.
You just gotta take a deep breath and empower yourself….and fight like hell to show them, they can’t control you.
YOUR IN CONTROL!!!
Ya see, they have spent all those years feeling in control, so your breakup is no different in his mind….he already knows your kind heart and what you will and will not do.
(HE THINKS)…
This is where ya gotta ‘shake it up’….make yourself so unpredictable…..it throws him off balance…..
At this point, the ex s can not predict anything I will do….except report any sighting of him near us to police…..and never give him an inch…..
He filed for divorce as i was diagnosed with Cancer and doing RAI treatemnets…..thinking I would be so down and unable to fight…..OH HOW HE WAS WRONG…..I didn’t go ‘fetal’ in the corner, as I could have easily……I WENT RAMBO…..
FULL STEAM AHEAD……into divorce court…..documenting, producing and researching…..
End result….I came out with everything…..(except the golf clubs, jet ski and cookbooks) OF WHICH he never collected and I jsut transferred ski into my Name last week……fuck him…..I am not his storage facility either……
Ya snooze ya looze…..
I beleive you gotta play tough…..study them, research the behaviors an d pay attention.
Take NO PRISONERS approach…..
because this is how they fight……dirty, mean and nasty….
You can keep it clean, no illegal stuff…..and he will expose himself in the end….
YOU NEED PATIENCE and self control…..and settle in for a several year battle….it’s never quick…..
Mine took a year……and it is gruelling…..tedious….etc….
BUT…the growth you will discover will catapult you into your future…..
I’m a different person……and I LIKE WHO I AM!!!!
I AM WOMAN…..hear me roar!!!!
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Spirit40 says:
Thank you EB for the inspiration, we after all have learned from the best…. I used to tell my ex Spath/Narc…. I learned from you…….I can fight for my rights … good does usually prevail evil , and Karma is a bitch…. they will get theirs someday one way or the other and they have no one who will rescue them…cept new fresh meat I mean victims…..
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Rosa says:
I think it takes a certain breed to take on a sociopath, especially when you are talking about the court system, & ESPECIALLY if the sociopath is digging their heels in for a fight.
It’s like Marlon Brando said in “Godfather Part 2″, “Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.”
You are going to need close access to your Cluster B, in order to take him/her down.
That’s where your most precious evidence will be.
If it’s something you are doing in a moment of anger, or on a whim….you will probably end up with egg all over your face, or worse.
When exposing Cluster B’s, you NEVER telegraph what you are going to do in advance. That would be suicide.
So, if you are going to do it, DO IT. And play for keeps.
Like Erin Brock says, “It’s either you or him.”
Personally, for me to do something like that, I want the game to be over before I even step into the courtroom.
And, I want to be the WINNER.
In other words, I want overwhelming evidence in my favor, and I want my lawyers telling me that it’s a “slam dunk”.
I am not leaving my fate, or the fate of my loved ones in the hands of some uneducated judge who falls for crocodile tears, if I can help it.
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erin1972 says:
I was sad at Christmas this year too but then I started to think about-last year when we were together, we had our Christmas on the 23rd because he was home with the wife and daughter instead of with me and I had to work at our job without him and be away from my family. I was a basketcase on Christmas day. This year I was thankful that I didn’t spend the day crying over him and having to deal with him being with HER. I did try to expose my spath as well and it was a bad idea. I lost and had to put off my dream career because he left me. I was going to the police academy and it was a paycut. He had promised me that he would help out with money so I could make the change. He bailed on me right before my classes actually started and I had to drop. I was so painful to me. Now I am back in the career that I hate to earn the money to downsize and go back. My police captain knew about the spath because he had threatened me and blackmailed me and wanted to get me kicked out. She helped me with the no-contact. We put the whole documentation in internal affairs with his name attached to it. That way they would just blow him off if he tried to sabotage me. He discarded me and wanted to keep me away. I emailed his best friend who is also his boss. I was hoping that since he had two daughters, I could appeal to him. Wrong-found out that HE is just as much the spath as my ex. My ex called and e-mailed me threatening me for exposing him and wanted to take me to court for damaging his reputation. My captain said ” I am giving you a direct order to no longer entertain him or try to bring him down. You are to have no contact-no matter what”. That fixed that. The spath of course told his buddy that I was the crazy one and that I had borderline disorder. His buddy even told the ex’s wife that I had been driving past HIS house-BIG FAT LIE! I’m crazy? Hi pot, I’m kettle, nice to meet you. This man built our whole relationship on lies and deceit and took advantage of me because I was lonely, naive, and had minimal relationships. It’s amazing what they get away with and think they can get away with. All I can see is-payback’s a bitch and I pray everyday that KARMA will bite him in the ass-SOON!!!!!!!!
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jeannie812 says:
I tried to expose Jim. It backfired. No one sees anything wrong with him. They looked badly at me instead.
He picks good friends. While he is a user and abuser. His friends are tight in their alliance with him.
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Ox Drover says:
That happens Jeannie, I wish it didn’t but it DOES! Sometimes we win,, sometimes they win, but in the end, they are still what they ARE and we can recover! (((Hugs)))) So, sometimes just surviving makes you a winner!
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fearlesspeace says:
Tanya & Everyone,
Thank you for sharing your story and your insight, “We want to believe it so much that we ignore the disorder and unfairness RIGHT IN FRONT OF US, and this blind spot is where the sociopath functions.” This is a great explanation of what I have been trying to figure out. I can explain what I should have seen as red flags now that I explained away as reasonable then. I am so glad you came out for the better on the other side! What is your experience with spotting the spath in your personal life now? I wonder if I will ever be able to trust…
To expose a S/P/N is as difficult as it is to communicate with them. All they care about is how they are perceived and they will continue to spin to anyone who will listen and they always make sure they will win. Thank God for good friends and those who are true to me and intelligent enough to see (AND NOT PLAY) the game.
Even when I have a friends ear, I do not bad mouth the P/S/N too much & I certainly don’t out him for being “psycho.” To what end would I do that? To make myself sound like a dime store psychologist, to disparage my child’s father, to desperately attempt to have others see the evil I see, to make myself sound like a woman scorned. Truthfully, I am so glad this relationshit is coming to an end that I am certainly not scorned–I am relieved. The truth will come to them as it did to me and I am here for those who are here for me.
I found the most effective strategy to respond to their pathology (I am certain No Contact is the BEST choice, but I am co-parenting here–love to me, people!) is: no eye contact, disengaged, disinterest in their conversation or anything about them, change the subject away from them when you are trapped into a conversation (they’ll quickly lose interest), call their bluffs with syrupy sweetness, communicate electronically to create a running record, disengage when they attempt to manipulate you emotionally, do not let them in the door (someone said here that they’re like zombies, they have to be invited in–hahaha), establish and maintain your boundaries, show no weakness. God, No Contact would be so great–I hate all this manipulation, but each day is getting better and I am getting stronger.
One last thing…because we have LF and supportive kindred spirits here, we don’t have to out these people to result in further damage to our psyche, family, etc. I can’t thank you all enough for the strength you have provided.
Fearless tonight!
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ErinBrock says:
Fearless:
your advice is great!
One thing I do disagree with (In my experience) is eye contact.
Both the spaths i’ve dealt with HATED me maintining eye contact.
I made a point of making eye contact….and showing CONTROL.
They both cowed down and looked away….that body language gave me ‘power’ over the conversations….or proceedings, or encounter.
When I noticed this, I continued……with confidence, held my head up high…..and portrayed myself with great confidence…..even though I was scared chitless a few times.
It allowed me to remian in control of our ‘encounter’….or at least appear this way. They didn’t know any better.
Not a stare down, not a conversation type look (as in I was interested in what they had to say)….I had an in control of myself type of confident look……and never took my eyes off em…..
In court, the businesss spath was taken off balance when he was testifying…..I NEVER once looked away. I moved my chair to face him directly….not the judge….and ‘listen’ intently….he kept looking out the corner of his eyes and got flustered. He lost track of what he was saying and flumbled up……and then the judge started asking him questions he couldn’t answer……then his nostrils started to flare……..
IT WAS CLASSIC.
I think Eye contact (like body language) is important…..but the interest has to be on US…..not give the impression we are interested in them…..but it goes along with the body language.
Not having eye contact may show we could be intimidated…..it’s important to show contrary.
Go get em fearless…..and look him straight in the eyes…..with confidence!
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kim frederick says:
I agree. Getting your inner psychopath on means learning to execute the predatory stare…Make sure they recognize it for what it is. Actually, breaking eye contact first is a sign of submission, and they will go for your throat!
But exercise good judgement in this as in anything else…If you think you’re in danger, don’t push it.
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Rosa says:
I’m jumping on with Erin Brock and Kim Frederick regarding eye contact.
Once again, psychos do NOT have a patent on staring.
Anyone can do it. It’s not that difficult.
Just a cold, blank stare is all you need to put someone back on their heels, whether they are disordered or not.
I would NOT try to “stare down” a psycho who is already locked into “stare mode” first, though.
If you are the one being stared at, I would do something else like scan him/her from head to toe and then say something like, “You’re staring….are you all right?”
If you consider the starer dangerous and capable of doing physical harm, I would not do anything.
I would just pretend like I didn’t notice the stare, and back out of the situation as quickly as possible.
If it is difficult for you to turn off your emotions and stare at someone, then I suggest engaging in some mental activities that require a “Game Face”, like poker.
Golf and tennis are also really great for developing mental toughness.
If you are not confident/mentally strong in golf or tennis, your whole game falls apart very quickly.
That’s why mentally tough players sometimes win out over the player who has more raw talent.
It turns into a battle of wills.
Look at what’s happened to Tiger Woods since the revelations about his personal life were exposed.
His golf game has sort of gone down the tubes…he’s certainly not playing at the level he once was.
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bulletproof says:
Eye contact (even IF you are shaking ) is
demonstrating to them…they have lost control…(they couldn’t give a shit as it happens…well this one didn’t)
The P tried everything to regain control by flirting, getting cross, denying everything and then eventually in a corner surrounded by 4 witnesses he gave me back my stuff…but he wasn’t humiliated by it, he was the same…nothing changed…he did say once “go an get the car….stop standing there looking at me”…but I knew that was it…while I would get a few posessions back, and my documents…I would NEVER get my heart, trust and innocence back or ANY of the money (thousands) unless I tracked him down legally…I will never forget all the different behaviours he ‘wore’ trying out each one to get me off his back…and there was a warning in his eyes…keep getting infront of my face and I will have to dispose of you!!!I saw a chamelian, a sham, someone with no heart whatsoever…also a moron, idiot…nothing there behind the scenes except selfishness
The mediator shook as well …she said she didn’t know WHY she was so nervous (she had no reason to be…only she knew what was going on) She was fine…confident and in control until sitting across from him…and then she started dithering and trembling…he had a very strong “fuck you” energy wafting off him…his stare was so steady, he was SO calm, he had a mug of tea and his whole body was relaxed while the two of us were mulch!!!
I am shocked to the core at what he is capable of FAKING…I kept thinking if he can rob me in broad daylight, infront of his family and friends, make ME out to be a crazy woman…he can do anything….I do not want to spend another minute fighting evil like that…he can have the money with interest if he stays the hell away….and I would say he is delighted to stay away…I’m history…but for one moment I posed a problem to him, he handled it the same way as he would handle everything…mildly inconvenienced to oh well take your stuff back….oh well take me to court….oh well put me in jail…NOTHING gets to this man…nothing.
At least Tiger Woods golf game has been ‘disturbed’ and maybe he is a sex addict rather than a P… but also keep open the possibility he is acting, good advice from some well paid brain behind the scenes…look as if you have been affected to gain a more human public face …look as if you are human…how many of them pretend by mimicking human reactions to things yet not feel anything…???
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Rosa says:
If Tiger Woods wanted to appear human, I think a better approach may have been to take more time off from golf in an effort to save his marraige and work on his personal issues.
He never did that.
He jumped right back into his sport, and Elin had to love it or leave it.
Thank God she chose to leave it.
Tiger Woods intentionally NOT playing up to par on the golf course in order to prove he’s “human” and gain public support???…….NO WAY IN HELL.
He would NEVER do that.
Golf is the only thing he’s got left, and even that seems to be slipping away.
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bulletproof says:
So what has him off his game? a slight robot malfunction? or real remorse?
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kim frederick says:
His image is tainted and it has put a chink in his Narcissistic defences. My 2 cents.
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Rosa says:
Hmmm…not sure BulletProof.
What I do know is this.
Socios love to put others under the microscope and systematically tear them apart.
But, they are not so omnipotent when the spotlight comes around on them and they are EXPOSED.
My ex used to tell me, “Perception is reality.”
I suspect TW subscribed to this same notion.
A huge chunk of Tiger Woods’ bank account was based on his public image.
Well, his personna went to heck in a handbasket in a matter of hours on that fateful night when he crashed his Escalade.
And then, the mistresses started coming out of the woodwork one at a time.
OMG, it was like a hemorrhage of the jugular!
The scandal surrounding his affairs took on a life of its own, and the media ran with it.
The same media who TW has had in his back pocket ever since he came on the golf scene at 19 years old.
Good bye “Media Darling” & hello “PIMP”.
The chain of events that have unfolded since the revelations became public is something Tiger Woods has NO CONTROL over, and this guy LOVES CONTROL.
I think he’s a bit unglued right now.
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bulletproof says:
Kim…yes that sounds VERY interesting…and…defending what? what’s underneath the defence? do you think he has real feelings?
do narcissists have a core self that is capable of love? sorry for the interrogation but I’m trying to figure it out, and I’d rather ask lovefraud than the so called experts…I have read things here that sound more true than what “experts” say….
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bulletproof says:
Rosa- deffinitely unglued….but he did it to himself…
If he loved control why would he have sex with what…13 women while he was so famous…did he think he was so powerful he could do anything he wanted?
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Rosa says:
Yes, I think he felt entitled to whatever he wanted, and he got away with it for a long time, too.
Some of these affairs were going on for 2 or 3 years.
Tiger Woods has always controlled the media.
And he still continues to do so, in that he selects who he talks to and what the questions will be in advance.
Very controlling personality.
I will be SHOCKED if he goes on Oprah and bears his soul.
And I’m sure Oprah is trying desperately to talk to him, but it has not happened yet.
Have you noticed?
It would probably be good for him to get on the couch with Oprah, though.
She has said many times how much she loves Tiger Woods, so she will set him up to come off looking good.
I believe the tally of mistresses is up around 18 or 19?? now.
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bulletproof says:
yes…I just cannot imagine a man with the audacity and brass nerve to collect 18 mistresses (lying to THEM also about eachother) to sit on any couch with anyone!! it’s just beyond anything anyone could say…what would say to him…well Tiger….em….let’s see…why would anyone want to bed 18 mistresses? for what? notches on the bed post? trying to recreate feeling like a big man because Elin was beyond making him the centre of attention? spoilt brat with all the toys? it would be very interesting to hear what he has to say.
but like you say….he wouldn’t do it without a script before hand!!!
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ErinBrock says:
I think the test (for them) is getting away with it. If they get away with an action….they think they are immune.
The longer they get away, they think they are in control of the peeps they are puppeteering. I don’t think they worry about exposure, because it’s something that only happens to ‘stupid’ people…..and they aren’t stupid. (HA!)
The spath always dug in on someone who got in trouble for things……how could they be so stupid….moron….etc…
He COULD NEVER be so stupid…..
It wasn’t like ‘normal’ people……thinking I would never be caught because I would never do something like that……never put myself in that position in the first place…..
He would just notch up his ‘savvy’ on getting away with whatever.
Until……he lost me! His cover….his front…..
He continued his actions…in the world….all his illegal activities…..with the confidence he could still get away with all of it…..but he had NOTHING left to hide behind….all his new peeps believed whatever he said…..because he ‘watered’ himself down with them…..never exposed them to him in large quantities of time…..because peeps like him……he thinks he is okay…..he hides behind that ‘okay’ feeling……they wouldn’t like me if I wasn’t okay right?
NO….they just don’t know all of you.
BP said “he had a very strong “fuck you” energy wafting off him…his stare was so steady, he was SO calm, he had a mug of tea and his whole body was relaxed.”
BP….this is exactly what WE must learn to achieve…..when going head to head with a spath…..EXACTLY!
I did it in the deposition, and all court hearings…..anytime I had contact with him face to face…..or in his presence….I had my ‘fuck you’ game face on.
He crumbled and stumbled…..
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ErinBrock says:
BTW…..it wasn’t an emotional ‘fU’ face….it wasn’t a stare…..it was an ALL BUSINESS fuck you Im in control here look on my face.
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ErinBrock says:
I just had a conversation about this with my eldest jr.
He said….command him and with intent.
Be HIS drill sargeant.
That’s my boy!!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Guys, I think TW is a high level N and lower level P, but that doesn’t mean he is not a selfish arse DELUX VERSION and feels ENTITLED to whatever it is he wants.
Yea, his game is off because he lost “supply” and got publicly outed. He lost a great deal of income from his being outed, his golf game was probably not 1/10 of his income, it was endorsements. He may have a 50M$ house but he is gonna be on welfare before long if he doesn’t get to putting the little white ball in the holes on the green pretty soon. He NEEDS to get on O and FAKE a “oh, so sorry” gig or he will never recover. Actually I don’t think he will recover, I think he is on his way to the pits with the rest of the bottom feeders. Good enough for him in my opinion.
Did anyone watch Oprah today? The story of the “child brides” of Rev. Tony alamo? That man is such a scumbag, makes TW look like St. Francis! Those girls have guts and back bones, and some of their mothers testified FOR Alamo in his trial while the girls testified against him. WOW!
As for the “stare” they in my opinion take the return STARE as a CHALLENGE and in most cases I think it makes them more determined to kick you down, but like EB said, if you just show that you are not going to back down, but not going to attack either, they may back off rather than percipitate a fight.
Remember, they don’t have a normal fear reaction…or impulse control, so challenging them could provoke a suicide effort on their part. Believe me I’ve done too much of that and only found out in retrospect it was a BAD IDEA TO DO. Hind sight is 20/20.
Some of them will go into a “shoot out” with you, some will be “sneaky” with you and stab you in the BACK.
Some will actually LITERALLY “suicide by cop” or murder-suicide if you hurt them too badly. Some may try to kill you with the deluded idea they can get by with it, like Scott Petersen.
It sort of depends on the situation and what level of violence they are involved with. I tend to be pretty cagey now with someone I consider a real psychopath because I think many of the higher level ones are definitely capable of extreme violence and lack a lot of judgment.
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ErinBrock says:
A stare is different than eye contact.
I’m suggesting eye contact…..with intent. Like you would do in a business meeting where you wanted to say something with intent and have it be heard. (NOT that a S hears anything).
In a business meeting you would not look down or away or ‘behind’ the contact person(s). You look directly at them.. You don’t stare at them…..staring is blank.
Oxy….”Some will actually LITERALLY “suicide by cop”” SHIAT….if we could only be so lucky!!!!!
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Ox Drover says:
Only if it is BEFORE they kill you! That’s the horrible thing about them, sometimes they are like the guy at the brewery who shot 8 or 9 people then turned the gun on himself because he got fired for being caught stealing. Of course it WASN’T his fault that he killed 8 people cause they had “discriminated” against him, even his family buys that EXCUSE. He wasn’t a “monster” his mom said, just a poor mistreated guy who KILLED 8 OR 9 PEOPLE THEN HIMSELF.
Just like Tony Alamo was commanded by God to Marry an 8 year old. NOT! One of his “wives” said “Tony you said that they had to reach puberty first, so how come you married this 8 yr old?” and he said “God commanded him to do it, though others wouldn’t understand.” LOL
It is amazing to me how they can come up with EXCUSES that I think in some cases they actually believe for the most outrageous acts.
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ErinBrock says:
I totally think they believe everything they think or say….
This circumvents any sort of ‘obligation’ to feel bad.
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chinagirl says:
The stare…I wish I could do it. I cannot believe what a wuss I have been. I have been completely obliterated by this guy and this is a guy that I had no problem telling off at the end of our marriage, and standing my ground when I started to put up boundaries with him. But he has me flailing around like the fraidy cat I am or have been rather! I have to get this together. When I was in court a couple of months ago I just wouldn’t look at him at all. I pretended he wasn’t there….and I felt so alone…no attorney with me, trying to fight this myself….and now trying to understand what EB you say about bspath. I am starting to get it. I see how he acts like theh authority and everyone believes him. THe funny thing is I can be just like that…when I am wtih clients, or teaching medical students….but I have lost my confidence around this creep hence the hiding and shaking and inability to speak like the intelligent, usually calm person I am. I end up feeling full of fear, shaking, unable to get what I need to say across. And that makes me look emotional and just like he tries to make me look….unhealthy, unfit, whatever. Wow, I need to really continue to work on this…and as I trust in my resilience and ability to face reality I know I can let go and move on.
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fearlesspeace says:
EB–thanks for the inspiration. i’ll take that attitude with me into the court room and in each transition with our child. Tells me today child said, “Mommy tells the truth.” He didn’t like the inference of this insightful toddler–reminds me of your post above. Questioned me about it, had I been saying bad things about him to child. (I have not, I WILL not, I do not for the sake and love of my child.) My cool response, cold eye contact and firm statement sent him on the defensive! I LOVE breaking that conflict cycle. TOWANDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think ya’ll are right about the eye contact as an effective tool to establish your power and limits on their BS; but when I wrote that post I was thinking about disengaged disinterest to not feed the N’s ego. They hate not been interesting, funny, charming, right, all-knowing etc., as we know. It’s so important to have a variety of tools and know when and how to use them, this goes as much for drills and wrenches as it does for psychological manipulation, I find.
I think it is so interesting that Elin is studying psychology. I think she knew his personality type and knew that nothing, not
even a beautiful, loving caring wife and mother to his offspring, would fix their marriage. I also think it is interesting how carefully she choose her words, “A marriage without love and trust is good for no one.” Or words to that effect–I know exactly what she means. It’s hard to love someone who can’t love you back once you have see it clearly. It’s like an egg you can’t unscramble. Also, those words do not blame or publicly criticize Tiger, she’s a smart cookie–one thing that is evident from the course is his temper and foul language.
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Fearless,
The “disinterest” can be expressed I think by simply not rising to their bait and getting “upset” be like an attorney or a judge and “poker faced” without any emotion, just “matter of fact” about everything like he is a business client that you don’t particularly care for…disdain.
When we let them upset us we give them power over us. Even if they DO upset us we have to pretend they don’t and not let them ever see us bleed.
The British wore red coats so that in battle their blood would not show up (they should have worn brown pants too! LOL) but that is the thing we must do is NEVER LET THEM SEE US BLEED!
They want to see us bleed, to see us wounded, to see us hurt. That is their reward. I’m just too much of a stubborn old bat now to let them get that up on me. And as outspoken and as open as Ii am it is DIFFICULT not to show emotion.
Even my therapist when I changed therapists thought I was a paranoid delusional nut job and I had to take in my son as a witness and court documents to prove I wasn’t out of my gourd!
When I hired an attorney to fight my son’s parole until he saw the EVIDENCE I had that my son was a psychopath, he didn’t get it either, he thought I was a nut job!@ NOW he gets it! LOL
I don’t tell my story much any more because I do KNOW THAT FEW IF ANY PEOPLE WILL BELIEVE A WORD OF IT….;that is what is nice about lovefraud, is that people here GET IT. They have lived stories just as crazy as mine, so they don’t think I’m a nut job or crazy or making this carp up!
Yea, I bet there is a bunch more story to the Woods’ marriage. Elin has been a Dignified lady about it all (except the night she went after him with the golf clubs, but I think she had been pushed to the brink on that night so I’ll let that one slide, I’d probably have done worse!)
His temper tantrums on the golf course and his other arrogant behavior and side-stepping I think all go together to show off his narcissism if nothing else.
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geminigirl says:
Oxy, and all of you,–that Spath stare! My older daughter used to do it, started when she was around 16, she was having sex, drinking,prob. popping Es as well,totally out of control. My ex was no help, as with the strain of his biatch D, he started drinking again after nearly 10 years of sobriety. Then I had BOTH of them out to all hours geting pissed!If I challenged her in any way, even if I bent over backwards to couch what I was saying in soothing, polite words, she literally went berserk!Shouting, screaming,violent, one time she threw a red hot steam iron at my head,{luckily it missed by a hands breadth,}Shes 2 inches taller than me,Im 5 foot 8inches.
But that spath STARE !Actually more of a GLARE!! It used to curdle my blood. I literally used to shake when she was around me.! Where had my sweet, obediant, quiet, teen with straight “A” grades gone?
She left school and ran away from home for 6 months. The poice wouldnt even help me look for her.She was reading a paperback one day,”The Sh ining.by Stephen King.”I saw her looking at me over the top of the book, and Ill never forget the pure HATE in her eyes,it blew me away!My pastor told me she hada “walk in “evil spirit that came and went.Im sure it was true.Mama gem.XX You couldnt make this stuff up! No-one but LF guys would even believe it!!
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ErinBrock says:
Did anyone catch Nancy Grace tonight….Mark Klass was on and they were talking about the ‘cheerleader’ who was recently murdered and the guy who was arraigned today on murder and sodomy charges.
(I didn’t see the arrainment tape)…..but apparantly the guy was as cocky and antagonizing to the family with his looks at them…..
Mark Klass said Richard Alan Davis (His daughter Pauli Klass’s killer) was the same way to him in court the first time…. Mark Klass said he stared him down with a cold hard stare never wavering, and he stared at him until RAD looked down. RAD never looked directly at Mark K again he said.
Funny that came up tonight…..just when we were talking about it!
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kim frederick says:
I missed it last night, EB, but watch it almost everynight, that and Jane Valez Mitchell. I can’t stand NG, but love her show. LOL. She has a way of getting to the heart of an issue doesn’t she?
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