LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Boundaries, zero tolerance, closure, moving on
PDF Editor’s note: This article was submitted by a Lovefraud reader.
It has been about a year since my story was posted on Lovefraud, Not one thing about him was real. It has been two years since I broke off the short relationship with this disordered man. It is a year and a half since he stalked me. I hope to share at least some practical points that have helped me in the healing process. It does get better. And it is a process.
I wish I could say that others may be helped PRIOR to involvement with a sociopath, but as we all know, sometimes the inevitable entanglement occurs before we even realize we have been manipulated. This entanglement would have ended much earlier if I had had clear boundaries, zero tolerance for lies and bad behavior, and the will to walk away alone and create my own closure.
There are many events and bizarre experiences with him, his family, his indiscretions, the pathological lies. I now realize that the ONLY purpose to ANYTHING he did was to make himself look good, please himself, hide the truth, devalue others for his own perceived greatness, impress people and get off on his lies and deceptions. He loves that he manipulates people to admire him as the hero, and to come to his defense as the broken victim that he plays so well. He doesn’t want you to realize he IS the stereotypical villain. He was just good at imitating the qualities that are truly admirable like modesty, bravery and dependability. Telling people he was a Navy SEAL hero, working for the NSA, CIA, using aliases, killing terrorists, giving away fake medals, telling stories of being tortured. It’s always about him. And what he calls LOVE is more like an OBSESSION.
He surrounds himself with people who are weak, easily manipulated and vulnerable. They WILL turn their heads to the truth. He wants them to need him. It’s tantamount for HIS very survival. Smart people will question him. Weak people will live the lie, sometimes because they need something from him and sometimes because they are just too weak to admit they have been conned. It’s tantamount for THEIR survival. I know because I was there for a short time. It’s a vicious circle and a world of denial that feeds his sociopathic hunger. In reality, he needs his victims more. He is only as good as the reflection he sees in the eyes of the victim. When I questioned his veracity, I was disloyal. But I was right. I asked good questions (eventually) and he could not keep up the rotting facade of his fabricated life.
Back to basics
I had to get back to basics in order to trust others, myself, my instincts, my intuition, my belief system, religion and all the rules I used to live by. I had to respect myself, gain back my self-esteem and learn to be tolerant but ONLY of those who do not violate my beliefs and boundaries. I also had to learn to stop accepting bad behavior much earlier and stop the self defeating behavior I recognized in myself.
I made lists of those “boundaries” and used them along with real life examples of behaviors that were no longer tolerable. The will to keep those boundaries safe came from the anger I felt after revisiting conversations and events and learning all of the lies. It was painful. I needed to forgive myself, not him, and I decided I would never allow that behavior again EVER.
I was mind raped. No doubt. I lost an innocence, not unlike being a rape victim. The abuse and exploitation is so ambient at times that you don’t even realize what has happened. It is ridden with intermittent generosity and professions of love while your thoughts, actions and behaviors are so closely controlled through undermining manipulation, guilt and shame. You are in a whirlpool of words and actions that are so inconsistent. And manipulation that has you believing you are wrong, and that everything you learned to date is wrong and that what you are witnessing must be real, while all you know to be right and good has defied you. My intelligence and good rationale failed me. Still I wanted to believe and have hope and faith.
I made lists
It was therapeutic for me to make lists:
- Things he took from me.
- Things I gave up to him.
- Lies he told.
- Red flags I ignored.
- Names he called me.
- Things he did and said to violate me and my children and friends and all the things he did (behaviors) which were inconsistent with the things he said.
I was too manipulated for far too long. NO MORE. Finally I understood that there was nothing of substance there in him to begin with. I thought he had more to offer me than I had to offer myself. But it was I who had what he wants and needs desperately. Perhaps he saw an innocence, a vulnerability, a naïveté about me and he knew I could be conned.
As much as I read and studied narcissism, sociopathy, and any number of disorders, I still could not comprehend why he lied and cheated as he did and why I allowed him to keep coming back for more. Someone told me that normal, healthy people cannot make sense of irrational, impulsive and sometimes delusional behavior because we simply rationalize. People who are disordered and impulsive just do what they do because they can and it benefits themselves in some way. It truly is that simple.
Creating boundaries
There are things I have learned to practice that have allowed me to find closure, take my power back, regain my confidence, which hopefully will keep me from EVER making this mistake again. I don’t need someone else to provide closure to a bad relationship or situation I never did. It was in me all along.
Creating Boundaries: These are mine:
- HONESTY … I ignored my instincts and the facts even when I caught him in lies.
- INTEGRITY … He was not and never will be a man of his word.
- FIDELITY/LOYALTY … The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. (He cheated constantly on his previous wife, on me and on his current wife. I have been told she is wearing the same engagement ring I wore.)
- RESPECT … (The verbal abuse, the cheating, the lying, the inability to do as he says are ALL encompassing of issues of respect). The bad behavior, spitefulness, drug abuse and allowing all of the above with his adult daughters.
I learned all over again to verbalize my rule of zero tolerance. I didn’t always speak up in the presence of the sociopath because he HAD to be in control and raged or had a tantrum for days.
The closure I seek these days, which I learned as a practice from my therapist, is that when someone is disrespectful, lies or doesn’t treat me well, that I need to close it off with direct communication about what I think and feel and to NOT let them back in again. When I do, I feel like I am in control of my life, my beliefs, and displaying respect for myself (and in an appropriate way). I have truly taken my power back. It is important for me to say, “Don’t contact me again. You are behaving inappropriately. I am not interested in you any longer. I don’t like what you just said to me.” IT IS ok to protect yourself first. I explain this at the risk of sounding juvenile or patronizing but I truly had to relearn these practices, which came so naturally to me previous to the sociopath.
Recognizing my value
All of our lives are eventually a result of the decisions we make. This is particularly true of the sociopath. In fact, I prefer to believe that his life is like a constant panic of desperation to gain what others have, what he needs to see in our reflection to fill the emptiness of his disturbed soul. He can’t fulfill his own fantasies fast enough and so he scrambles daily to find victims to manipulate in order to feel superior.
Recently, this man’s family and new friends found the truth about him on an internet site where he has been exposed as a military impostor and con man. He has known of the exposure for two years after an investigation. He chose not to respond then. He has dishonored those who served and gave of their lives. Other women/people have now come forward and also identified him and his stories. Justice comes in strange ways sometimes. He counted on all of his victims to cower to his intimidations but HE is the coward. Those who continue to live the lie are the cowards. Yet he still has potential to be prosecuted for his crimes. HE IS EXPOSED. I prefer to be on this end simply observing the drama that he is creating with his new followers and family, with no involvement.
At some point I saw more value in what the sociopath had to offer me than in what I had in myself. And I was willing to give myself up to be what he wanted, demanded, expected. The abuse I suffered as a target of a sociopath has taken a toll. To recover, I first had to clear the fog, find myself, and understand my value and importance.
There is a kind of confidence that is exuded when we know who we are and what we want and don’t deviate too much from that. People see it in us and respect it as well. The road is long and this experience with this dysfunctional man will stay with me for a long time. I found myself through recognizing my value and making sure it is respected and appreciated, if not by someone else, by ME. After all, I am the one who has to face me every day.
written by Lovefraud Reader • Permalink •
ErinBrock says:
I’m going to ‘double down’ and ‘split’ that hand……
And heres one for the dealer too…..cuz I’m certain theres’ an ace hiding in that next card!!!
On the day…the ex broke the ‘camels’ back….
he pushed me down….to the ground, went flying backwards….(ofcourse his version is different, but the judge called him out on it)……
one child witnessed this….(unbenknownst to me they were standing behind me, behind the fridge at bottome of stairs)……
I told him to get out……he wanted to talk….
Came upstairs to kids room and said, come on kids Im going to take you somewhere fun……as he was looking at me…..
I said, NO i’ve made arrangements for the children…..kids were looking at me motioning behind his back….no no mom, we are NOT going with him…..(kids and I had developed the unspoken language and they knew I was taking them to friends)
He said, let’s talk…..I said, NO, there is nothing to talk about….you should have thought about that prior to your being abusive and pushing me down…..FOR THE LAST TIME!
AS COLD AS COULD BE and in earshot of kids (the one who witnessed it)….he states……
I wasn’t abusive…..I never pushed you down…..
If no one saw it, then it obviously never happened!
It ALL became chillingly clear to me right then and there!
Period….
I left with kids……and told him he had 1 hour to get his shit and get out OR i’d call the cops…..
he was gone when I got back!
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persephone7 says:
Erin:
Your relating what happened to you puts so much into perspective – if we don’t do something, it escalates into more hurt and usually violence like you describe. I saw it
with my own stepfather and mother, and wondered how and why my mother had to wait 25 years to ‘get it’ – and only after it turned into physical abuse heaped on the
emotional abuse he’d been dishing out to all of us for years.
I asked recently for my friend to lower his voice, he is always loud and imposing but gets confrontational and much louder each time I challenge him. He always resists
that – like it’s a form of criticism. But that clarity you spoke of has touched me more and more, like you’re finally in the eye of the storm and can get calm enough yourself
to see this thing whirling out of control around you – and you know you must find a way out or become part of it.
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ErinBrock says:
This was taken from the below link.
Interesting and straight to the point!!!!
**it was an article referring to the Tiger situation…..but disregard the TW’s reference and get the points the author is trying to make…..
http://firstwivesworld.com/res.....%80%A6-who
do you know what one of women’s greatest strengths is? One of our greatest gifts? Our intuition. Use it or lose it. Look, we know! We see the red flags; we just …want what we want. We want handsome, tall, and strong/rich, powerful, and sexy/ hunky, artistic, etc., etc., guys who will sweep us off our feet and we’ll live happily ever after. We like the idea of love, not the reality. And I gotta tell you this; fantasy gets us into more trouble than just about anything. Slap yourself. Pay attention. Do your homework. Very few men turn into cheaters who were not already cheaters of some kind. The writing is on the wall—read it OR pay the price. How much is your peace of mind, your soul, worth? I’ll bet Mr-pro-golfer’s wife is asking herself that right now. Heavy price to pay, I say!
And fourth and last (for now, anyway): Wanna stay a victim and a blamer, or embrace the path of a skilled relationship warrior goddess? Maybe it’s time to fan your inner flame, turn up the volume of your passionate heart, and say YES to what’s most sacred and NO to what is not. To deny any suitor who has not taken care to bow before the divine, honor women and children, to live by the code inscribed in their deepest core, whose life reflects this on and off the field! How about you…shame on who?
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one_step_at_a_time says:
nice EB!
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persephone7 says:
Thanks, Erin.
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ErinBrock says:
“The writing is on the wall—read it OR pay the price.”
I had to go back and learn how to ‘read’…..and it was way after it cost me…….loads!!!
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recovering says:
ErinBrock: You are so right that “fantasy gets us into more trouble than just about anything.”
Fantasy is what can keep us believing in a “love connection” that doesn’t really exist when someone lacks empathy, the ability to be fair, reasonable and reciprocal.
As I began understanding more clearly what I was dealing with — a disordered personality — I paid even closer attention to whether my ex-N/S words matched his actions.
He’d say, “I love you,” and I’d respond, “Then why would you have done this or that…” — and he could only come up with stereotypical responses that revealed a lack of depth.
Reality kept colliding with my “hope-filled” fantasies. Acceptance of reality — his consistently negative behaviors, unwillingness to take responsibility for this own life, inability to be authentic, etc. — helped fade the fantasies and break the attachment to him over time as interacting became less appealing, and the promises less fulfilling.
Doing this internal “homework” — ongoing observation and emotional processing as events unfolded — helped me move away from fantasy about what “potential” the relationship had, and forced me to focus on the reality of my life with him — what I really believed versus what he wanted me to believe, how I really felt, and the benefits versus costs of it all.
Becoming more grounded in reality helped me see that I had projected a lot of positive qualities onto someone in ways that gave him more power in my mind than he actually deserved.
As I reflect more on how I became turned off — as a result of the emotional abuse from my previous relationship — I see now that the ongoing conflict between valuing myself and being with someone whose self-centeredness made it impossible for him to value me, or contribute to building a positive relationship, made me draw a line in the sand.
What was real (the need to support and reinforce valuing myself) ultimately won out over fantasy (the potential of my ex to value us). He never could demonstrate consistently that he valued our relationship, compared to the ways in which he devalued the relationship through various controlling, demeaning and confusing behaviors.
This disparate situation could not continue to co-exist without compromising sanity — for me, it became a matter of basic survival and I was forced to make a choice.
The alternative was to deny reality and endure the chaos — the ongoing stress, being part of a situation that did not honor my values — with the potential results being mental, physical and spiritual deterioration.
Just as there is a method to the madness of the N/S — all kinds of ingrained behavioral and character-disordered patterns — there also are ways to increasingly get out of the world of fantasy they attempt to create and enmesh us in to a point of seemingly no escape.
Becoming increasingly grounded in reality, I believe, is what helps us detach more and more to neutralize whatever power we assume the N/S has over us. From there, we can move toward indifference. Over time, this makes it less and less likely we’ll want to engage with them in the same “intense” ways we previously did.
Facilitating this path to freedom involves replacing fantasies with new perspectives that are more balanced so that we can be more at peace with the outcomes of things beyond our control.
As many have previously said at Lovefraud, closure on normal terms — with mutual and genuine understanding and appreciation achieved once we leave the relationship — is also among the fantasies we have to give up with the N/S.
To expect the N/S to somehow come to their senses, show empathy and get real/authentic is unrealistic because — true to their nature as extremely self-centered people — they have far more to gain from us remaining entrapped in the fantasy world where they lived and wanted us to remain.
It’s been said that knowing without doing is like not knowing at all. Knowledge — both of self and others — and the willingness to do the hard emotional work are keys to unlooking the door to enter as new level of freedom for ourselves after our encounter with a N/S.
The world and our lives can begin to look a whole lot different, with renewal of spirit as we integrate the wisdom we’ve gained from these experiences.
It can be humbling and yet lovely.
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witsend says:
Persephone7,
If you could distance yourself from him for a good length of time and have total N/C, you would have more clarity.
As long as you are with him and he is spinning his stories, he keeps you IN the story. Because he has something over you right now and he keeps playing that card. The money he owes you.
If you can stop listening to what he says. PERIOD. Don’t hear him. Go deaf when he speaks. Put in ear plugs if you must.
Just look at his actions.
Is the money in your account? Forget his never ending “story” about the money. Is it THERE?
While you are waiting for the money isn’t he also getting into you for more money?
Did he make your holiday more pleasant by doing anything with you or for you? (not by his words but by HIS actions)
What does he contribute in your life that makes him worthwile for you to keep him in your life? And if he were dating your daughter, what would you be saying to her?
Maybe if you could try and look at “facts” when it comes to him…..His actions. And totally disregard what he is saying, maybe you could see this from a different perspective. And with more clarity.
It is so HARD to comprehend all this when we are smack dab in the middle of it. It is so easy for others to see but we can’t see it because we are so involved with all the crazy making and the manipulation.
That fantasy world that they live in really does distort our own sense of reality.
I think the only way out is to embrace reality. Because the less we embrace reality the more we become a product of their distorted worlds.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
yesterday when i was talking to someone from a housing help agency, these words popped out of my mout, ‘ yes, let’s set up that appt., as I am ging to be in this situaion for at least three months and I want to bring all the resources into line that I can.”
wow. perspective. not just freaking out. gawd those days off at xmas helped so much.
Now, to get help from the next agency i have to have an eviction notice – and they can only help if they have funds. I havne’t heard back as to whether they have funds (and they are now closed until the 4th). so, i have to not pay my rent and get the eviction notice and I don’t even know if they have funds.
Having to go into arrears to get help is horribly stressful. But I am dealing with a bully landlord, and this is the ONLY way I can get help. it IS a strategy – one that may backfire in the long term. But if I pay the rent I cannot pay my other debts or buy food.
I have decided that I can’t afford to move, even though it is dangerous to my health to live here and that I:
a) have to get a roommate (have spent the last three days making ads on free sites and contacting people looking for rooms);
b) need to engage some help to figure out a plan to deal with the smoke and the bully landlord (neighbour and I are looking into this and I will call free legal aid next week, and have an appt. with an ‘eviction prevention officer’ at a social services agency, and see who i might work with in the media – i think shaming the landlord publicly might be the best tact – but using it to underline the lack of protection under the law for non smokers;
c) I have to remind myself every moment that this is a strategy, and that i am not an awful irresponsible person who isn’t paying her rent….it’s like what the path’s do….have a ‘different’ perspective on what their actions mean. It isn’t a fully worked out strategy unfortunately – and therin lays a problem, but the xmas season has made it hard to connect with peole – so much is shut down.
I am doing better than I was two weeks ago. And today it’s lasted for hours.
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robxsykobabe says:
Witsend:
I would like to share a conversation my ex and I had, after we broke up in June of this year…mind you, this was after he had sent 7 poems to me, flowers, and emails saying BREAKING UP WITH ME was the worst mistake he had made…
It went somewhere along the lines of…
Me-I dont think you realize how much thinking Ive done these past 2 months.
Him-Baby, you’re gonna make your own decisions, but I can just tell you that Ive been miserable without you.
M-I dont think you understand, (princess). By not talking to you, I feel like I can SEE what was going on…all the lies, games, manipulations.
H-What games? Who have you been talking to? Have you dated anyone (getting angry)…HAVE YOU BEEN SEEING SOMEONE!!!
M-No, I havent seen anyone. I just feel like now that I look back on everything that has happened, I can see when this all began to spiral out of control. Im a healthy person who began to act very unhealthy…and Im not that person.
H-What do you mean? Ive done everything for you and us…I would still do anything for you and us.
The piece you commeneted on about clarity is true. AFter we broke up, for as sad as I was, I felt relieved that I wasnt gonna be expected to do absurd things for him anymore. The trap began though around the 2 month mark of our breakup. Maybe he couldnt find anyone to be his supply in that time and NEEDED to come back. I dont know.
What I do know is that when we got back together, from the moment it began, I was uneasy. It seemed as though I already knew how it was going to turn out, despite the fact that he took me to a concert (one of my favorite things to do), SWORE he was gonna ‘get back’ to the way he treated me our first year together (isnt that strange that he said he was gonna get back to that place…seems to me, he was telling me it was intentional…hmmmmm), and schmoozed me for, oh, about a week.
Im sick to my stomache about this though. There has been no contact as I have blocked him from any form of communication. Still, I have a bad feeling he will try to contact me, as I have a bag full of his stuff. Isnt it strange, after almost 2 months of no contact that he hasnt wanted to get his things?
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recovering says:
Persephone7, I recall from several days ago when you first posted about really struggling with being let down again by your significant other, and concerns about him not placing money into your account as promised.
As witsend says, the fantasy world that they live in really does distort things, and the only way to get more clarity is to embrace reality — what is actually happening, based on his actions, not words.
You know you’ve been patient with him. You owe it to yourself to give yourself permission to stop feeling obligated to continue sharing resources if you can’t afford to give — whether energy, money — when you’re already feeling more depleted.
Please give yourself more credit for having done your best, as you realize that you cannot carry the full weight of another adult’s responsibilties…
Best wishes….
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one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsykobabe, no it is not unusual that the has left his stuff. it’s been left as leverage
Ask oxy or EB, or even Henry (his s x showed up two years later for his cat, yah right!) and I am sure many others here have this experience.
do you have a lawyer? I am wondering if there is a way to get rid of his stuff. What laws govern this in your state? (but WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO HAVE CONTACT WITH HIM)
best, one step
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Cat says:
EB, Just went to the link you provided and read the article. Wow! Hits the nail on the head and yes, our greatest gift is our own intuition, which I had shoved on the back burner for years. Right now, it’s in over-drive, but that’s OK too. It won’t be that way forever.
I really like the last paragraph….shame on who? It drives home the point that we need to trust ourself, pay attention to those “funny” gut feelings and then HONOR what we feel by giving it it’s due attention.
I really don’t like getting slapped upside the head over and over and that’s what my intuition was doing to me…hello…duh!!…will you get it already?
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witsend says:
robsxykobabe,
The thing is it ISN’T strange at ALL that he left some of his stuff. This is a really common thing that they do. His “stuff” that he left is his foot in the door (in his distorted thinking) for the next time he wants to contact you. He figures that you can’t possibly ignore him if he is trying to contact you to “just” get his stuff. It really is just keeping all of his options “open” in his mind. In reality it is keeping his “suppliers” open in case he needs you later.
And your conversation with him was CLASSIC sociopath. The focus of the conversation is ALWAYS diverting the attention of the wrong doing, to YOU instead of owning up to anything they might have done.
If you presented a S/P/N with a VIDEO tape of them cheating with the O.W. They would turn the entire thing around to point out to you what a terrible person you were for not trusting them. NO MENTION of the fact that they were caught red handed cheating……The entire focus would be on you and how dare you to not trust them.
It really is pretty amazing. If we had the ability sooner to remove our emotions and how we take everything that they do to us “personally”….And if we could see it for what they are really DOING without our emotions excusing their behavior….
Their actions really do speak LOUD & CLEAR.
The only thing we really can do is embrace reality.
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persephone7 says:
witsend and recovering:
I’m just home from lunch and checked in, have to hurry. Your comments are both true and appreciated, more than I can say right now. I am seeing all that you say about the fantasy, the
truth is setting me free – and believe me, though I ‘m getting through this New Year’s eve with him, I have been emotionally listing his actions and inactions towards our relationship – I think
he’s aware of it and has been nicer – his things are still here. But the truth is I am onto him, and onto myself for my part in all this – and reality is forcing me to move him on out – unless he
makes a some major transformation AND starts to pay his way. Will write more later, but wanted to respond, thanks so much – and EB that article was just what was needed, too – you have that psychic thing going on just what and when to post…
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amber says:
Thanks for that article EB.
“Very few men turn into cheaters who were not already cheaters of some kind.”
This has probably been the most important lesson I learned. To listen to my gut or my inner self. God gave me women’s intuition for a reason……to protect myself from creeps like this. I still don’t know why I didn’t listen to it for 4 years. But I’ll be damned if it’s not the first thing I pay attention to next time I come across one of these scumbags. That voice is loud and clear and won’t be ignored ever again, because ya know what?!?! It was right about my ex the whole time.
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robxsykobabe says:
I wonder how many times Im going to have to hash this out in my mind before I can accept what has happened…its gettign exhausting and I think my family getting tired of ‘processing’ this with me…they knew it well before I even considered what was going on.
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recovering says:
robxsykobabe: Major issues that created confusion started happening about 6 months into my 1.5 year relationship.
It took me a year to emotionally process and let out most of my anger and rage/pain (I gave most of it directly back to my ex) — enough for me to get to a point that I gave up hope on the relationship.
It took all that suffering through non-sense, which included breaking up and reconciling several times over that period, because I was truly in the “dark” about the real, underlying issue/s.
Only when I could intellectually and mentally/emotionally connect the dots about N/S personality disorders did I realize the man I dated was way beyond my reach to nurture a healthy relationship with.
I gradually no longer took it personally as I understood he was incapable of having a genuine connection with me or anyone else. This knowledge in many ways made it easier for me to let go and give up hoping it might eventually work out.
By the way, we’re both trained in the same field as counselors, so we might have a harder time than many in ridding ourselves of the notion that some people can’t change.
Now, I finally get it.
As far as your family, of course they would know before you even considered what was going on — but you were the one in the relationship. You know how easy it is to be objective when a situation isn’t personal.
Believe me, family members also have their own blind spots in certain areas that you can likely see more clearly than them, as you know.
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justabouthealed says:
robxsykobabe:
I haven’t read all the posts but what really helped me was to write out my paradigm shift. (A paradigm shift has become more common in vocabulary now, but it is a big shift in thinking. Like from thinking the sun revolved around the earth, to understanding the earth revolves around the sun. ) So I wrote out in detail what I used to think the P/S/N was like, what was wonderful about him , his tiny faults, etc, to what I now realize…all his horrible traits and his tiny good points. When I saw in black and white what a 360 degree shift in thinking I had to go through, I understood better why I had to re-process it so many times, re-think it so many times. If you found out Mother Theresa was actually a child molester, you’d have to re-think that a few times too! The change was that dramatic for me.
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robxsykobabe says:
Recovering:
Well, this is a very nice surprise, as I think sometimes because I am a therapist, the expectation is that I will just KNOW things or SEE things. In reality, I think its the opposite.
Is it possible for him to have loved me, I mean genuinely loved me at one time? He and his mother would tell me often “you dont know how much I fight to keep the good (name) in front. It’s a daily battle.” I wonder this…is it possible for him to have made conscientious choices to ‘do good’, only to have ‘reverted’ to his ‘true’ self because that ‘self’ worked so much easier for him? Once he was in the mode of that ‘bad’ self, it was like an object in motion? Unstoppable or VERY difficult to stop?
Once his skeletons began coming out of the closet, in order for him to ‘safe face’, it seemed as though he reverted to past pattersn of behavior…lying and manipulating in particular. Could it be that once his ‘past’ had become exposed, and because of an inability to TELL THE TRUTH, he digressed and that ‘bad’ self took over…which would be his REAL self in essence?
Even if Im totally wrong, for one second as I wrote this I seemed to feel better…thanks so much Recovering…you dont even know how helpful you are!
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robxsykobabe says:
Just about healed:
I have done this! In fact, when we broke up initially, I did this as it works well with my clients. I wrote about 4 pages worth of ‘reminders’ of all the assinine things he did and referred back to it ALOT…in fact, I still do, and have added more and more things to it!
Im not quite there yet and sometimes the thought of pulling my notepad out, re-reading it, and swallowing it is overbearing…so I avoid it. Other times, when Im pissed to no end, I read it, and read it, and read it…then I get mad and Im okay…
Thank you, this is good to know others really do use it too
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recovering says:
robxsykobabe: I’ve learned from reading here that there are nurses, therapists and others in helping professions. It would be interesting to know what this means, if anything. There are also lawyers and journalists (journalism is my previous career area) who’ve blogged here.
In terms of whether he loved you, I became convinced by what so many others have shared here — that these N/S people are unable to fully see/hear others as individuals (they view people as extensions of themselves or prey, and feel they are above us normal humans).
I would never presume to know whether someone else’s relationship had genuine love or not, but I do think there is a clear lack of empathy going on with these disordered people. I don’t think they even love themselves.
There are a lot of articles on this site that address this topic, because one issue that comes up for so many people is whether their ex is able to love a new person after the end of a relationship.
Based on my experience, I think the N/S are operating from such a different worldview that it is impossible to know what they think, believe or feel from a normal person’s perspective. They are balls of confusion, both for themselves and others.
My ex still tells me he loves me (when we talk occasionally). I am not moved by it at all.
I think that even if we don’t love someone, the degree of harm these people do for no apparent or good reason (outcomes for them or another) definitely suggests they are incapable of empathy and basic decency on many levels.
In a previous relationship I had (with my son’s father) before I met my N/S ex, there was a lack of closeness and he sometimes lied (related more to financial irresponsibility), but it never rose to the level of emotional abuse, gaslighting and other straight-up confusion and routine non-sense that I experienced with the N/S.
So your guess is as good as mine. There are some excellent books on these people in case you have not already read them:
Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us
The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists
Why is it always about you? (not sure if title is exact)
The Sociopath Next Door
The Betrayal Bond (about trauma bonding)– Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships
And many more: Mary Jo Buttafucco’s book is excellent; old Alfred Hitchcock movies explore sociopathic men and women in everyday life situations — just amazing how deep Hitchcock was, in addition to being humorous.
I can tell you I don’t want to experience another personal relationship with one of these creatures, but I am becoming a better therapist/healer (a wounded healer who is recovering from family-of-origin/co-dependency stuff I had been working on over 20 years — and the N/S experience helped uncover other things at a deeper level) because of it.
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muldoon. says:
read that and its brilliant…Im in crisis again but this time its my own fault…I had to come back for more and now I live a half arsed life, where I am no longer me..I am unfeeling and cold..dead..and today its kicked off again..amnd because I dont react and jst ignore hiom he has been in bed since 7pm…I could scream…
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ErinBrock says:
Muldoon:
The ex s’s psychologist told me……
EB….you know the facts here…and he’s NOT going to change.
You just keep on touching the hot stove and getting burned.
Muldoon…..you know the facts…..and I’m gonna ask you again…..
WHAT IS YOUR LIFE WORTH???
What kind of mother do you wish to be????
(and are you that woman?)
It’s up to YOU to break the cycle.
UP TO YOU!!!!
There is NO WAY possible your going to ‘make it better’….your going to extend the enevitable.
BUT…..the more time you let pass, you will have less resources to work with. Emotionally and financially and backing/support from your family, friends, neighbors, kids etc…
Trust me….I tried every door, angle, opening, change, improvement, digression…..and the only thing that made a difference…..WAS BOOTING HIM FROM MY LIFE!!!!!
You have kids to be a mother too? You need to show them the meaning of love…..not abusive treatment from a spouse…..Do you want them entering into the same type of relationship they have been shown an example of?????
I THINK NOT!
PAY ATTENTION HERE>>…..
GET THE HELL OUT!!!!!!
I care, I’m concerned and there is no way you can avoid what you are living by staying there.
NO WAY!!!
Only you can make this choice…..CHOOSE A BETTER LIFE!!!!
XXOO
EB
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pollyannanomore says:
Recovering …
you HAVE to get the book Women who Love Psychopaths (I think I should have some sort of associate selling deal – I can’t stop recommending it lol) It spells out in intricate detail the types of women who get involved with psychos and there are definite elements that are very very common …
You are spot on about the helping professions – if we go into this type of work, we are far more empathic than the regular population. We also have other traits that are likely to make us stick around the P when things get bad – think patience, tolerance, hope, support, e ncouragement. So because of the traits we are attracted to this type of work and then the work and training reinforces and grows the traits. I downloaded an ecopy so I will have a quick look to find a small excerpt to post. You can buy the book (both electronic and paper) at this site or at Sandra Brown’s site. Dr Liane Leedom who posts here co-authored and the research is incredible.
“Our survey found the temperament traits elevated in women who love
psychopaths are:
1. Extraversion and excitement-seeking
2. Relationship investment and positive sociability
3. Sentimentality
4. Attachment
5. Competitiveness
6. Concern for having others‘ high regard
7. Harm avoidance”
Brown, S. (2009). Women who love psychopaths. Page 104
Each of those traits is broken down individually in great detail to explain how it supports the sick relationship.
This quote is about professions and comes from page 104 and 105
“Her Extraversion52
The women who love psychopaths overwhelmingly tested as
extraverted, which wasn‘t surprising. Those I have worked with are mostly gregarious and powerful women! Most are highly educated or have done well in their own line of work—successful by anyone‘s standards. The average woman in the survey had a minimum of a Bachelor‘s Degree or higher. Many are professionally trained as:
Attorneys
Doctors
Therapists or social workers
Female clergy
Nurses or other medical professionals
Teachers or professors
Editors
CEOs of companies
Non-profit agency directors
These are a formidable group of women who have knowledge, education, and strength. Before the psychopath landed in their lives, they were financially secure or successful in their field or school, had good self-esteem, goal direction and competitive attitudes. How does the women‘s own extraversion influence how they ended up in a relationship with a psychopath?”
This passage explains the cue reading on page 116 …
” Her Social Sensitivity
These women are also socially sensitive. They are sensitive to the needs of others which explained why they were so sensitive to the needs of a psychopath. They are sensitive to environmental and emotional cues about other people and can pick up when others are hurt or wounded by an
act or something said. Many psychopaths play the ‗empathy‘ card early in the luring stage. Picking up on a woman‘s hyper-empathy, they use their chameleon tendencies to morph into whatever she is. If she is hyperempathic then she needs something to empathize with. Quickly the psychopath has the sad story for her to connect to–his abusive childhood, his wife who runs around, his lost job, his stolen opportunity, his children he never gets to see. Her ability to hyper-focus on the needs of others puts the psychopath dead center as the recipient of her social sensitivity.”
I strongly recommend everyone read this book – it points out both our strengths and weaknesses and is important in learning how to go out safely into the world so we never experience this kind of relationship again.
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recovering says:
pollyannanomore — ok, this sounds like something I’ll definitely want to explore more in depth.
Thanks for the info, and Happy New Year.
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henry says:
I am not a women so i have not read that book about loving sociopaths. But have often thot it might also apply to men. But the traits you have shown make it obvious I dont love them, just feel sorry for them. If I went to a homeless shelter I would prolly bring most of them home with me. The sociopathic ones any who. So I have blinder’s on when it comes to the needy, just like I no longer rescue stray dogs, I just cant afford to feed them or care for them.
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pollyannanomore says:
Henry I would be willing to bet the traits are very similar for men – it is a pity they didn’t do a chapter on same sex relationships as well in the re edit – there would be similar dynamics but with an added layer of context and culture. Do you recognise those traits within yourself or are there some differences?
I so know where you are coming from re the stray pets – I seem to be a magnet for them. If there is a dog that has e scaped it’s yard or a kitten wandering on the road, you can guarantee I will come in contact with them and take them home till their owner’s or a new home can be found. I am the Princess of Strays lol. In fact just tonight I was walking my dogs at the park and found a little white rabbit nestling in the periphery. I took the pooches home and prepped a box with newspapers and blankets, grabbed some gloves and cabbage leaves and carrots and was all set to go back and bring it with me as the heavens had opened and it was pouring down. But when I got back it was gone – probably a pet rabbit that got through a fence – was a bit of relief for me! Last time I did a park rescue it was an injured bird and I picked it up, spent ages negotiating with a shelter and finally got a vet to agree to see it. I flew in the car with it in a box and it died on the way unfortunately. I cried for a good few hours after that – even though the vet was very kind and said it was shock and it would have died anyway.
I think it’s ok to rescue as long as we don’t actually keep them. I will still pick up wandering animals (well not big dangerous dogs!) if I see them – my conscience won’t let me do otherwise – fortunately I don’t seem to be meeting as many lately
PS the book is worth reading anyway – only about two chapters are devoted to women’s traits – the rest focusses on the traits and behaviours of the psychopaths and the dynamics that occur in the relationship – it’s a fascinating read. I read it in one go – just was glued to the screen for hours!
Hope your New Year is off to a flying start! And you make a good point – it won’t kill any of us to remain single for a few years
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OxDrover says:
DearEB,
Your above post to Muldoon wins the first “Silver Cast iron Skillet AWARD for 2010.” Good Advice!
I had a GREAT New year’s Pity Party and head banging marathon, but I am back to myself now, I have literally worn out a 10 inch skillet, beat a hole through the bottom on MY OWN HEAD, which is now flat and cracked but functioning much better. I smashed my ROSY COLORED glasses as welll, and I hope I never get stooo-pid enough to ever put on another pair.
It is AMAZING how much we can work at denial, excuses, and trivalizing other’s bad behavior just because we love these “people” (to use the word losely) or we over look dysfunction in Non-Ps that is just about as toxic to us, whew! But, I am turning over a new leaf in 2010.
MY FARM IS NOW THE LIAR-FREE ZONE, and my rosy colored glasses are smashed to pieces, and I am armed to the teeth with a skillet in each hand, and a Bowie Knife in my teeth, with my sheeet stomping kick arse boots on and I don’t care who the SOB is, I don’t tolerate liars and I ain’t a gonna cry over no more of the f’s either! So there ! Take THAT!!! Now all you liars get gone or I will sic the hound dogs on your sorry butts and BOINK you on the haid with two skillits.!!! LOL
Happy New Year to us all, and a PSYCHOPATH-FREE year for us all, and try out Oxy’s new brand of NO- MORE TEARS LOTION, just rub it on a psychopath and they vanish and you don’t have to cry any more.!!! (((Hugs)))) and prayers for you all, your prayers worked for me! Thanks to you all!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsykobabe – you wrote:
‘… only to have ‘reverted’ to his ‘true’ self because that ’self’ worked so much easier for him?’
with me, the ‘sweet boy’ character was SOOOOO kind, and i htink with the rest of the folks who ‘he’ was connecting with. I remember thinking that this must have been a HUGE burden for the spath to be this nice (and intelligent and articulate) and to so many for so long – the latest characters she brought to the fore were NOT nice. mean, threatening, histrionic, poorly spoken, manipulative, gas lighting, stupid, etc.
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justabouthealed says:
I wanted to comment on closure. I saw on another website that in order to be able to get closure WITH another person, through talking to them, the other person must
1. have a reasonable degree of sanity
2. have foot hold in reality
3. have empathy.
Well, that is another reason No Contact is the answer….these guys don’t qualify a person with whom closure is possible.
I got my closure by moving permanently (finally) from the victim role to feeling in control of my life again.
Finally.
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recovering says:
justabouthealed — I so relate to the point you make: “I got my closure by moving permanently (finally) from the victim role to feeling in control of my life again.”
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myboysmattermost says:
I have recently initiated No Contact after finding this board. I ignored his phone calls and he emailed this:
“Now I am sure you are and have been cheating on me. All you wanted was for me to leave. I loved and fathered your son for most of his life. In return you took my son away from me.. You are truly sick and need help. How could you do this to everyones lives?”
Now my phone is ringing and ringing and ringing with his number. He has not emailed again so I am sure he has nothing nice to say, which I could use against him…
I imagine it gets worse before it gets better but what are the chances he will get angry enough to come and hurt me or the boys? He is currently out of state but…I have changed the locks, alerted neighbors and schools and have a safe place to flee to if necessary…I also have the local judge ready to issue a mental arrest warrant if he shows up before the divorce with the Order of Protection is in place…what if he sends a “friend” to “punish” me for divorcing him??
How long does No Contact take in your experience until he realizes I am truly done with him?
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witsend says:
myboysmattermost,
Many S/P/N don’t have a very long attention span. These types often find a new victim in a short period of time. However there are also those that will continue to harass for longer periods of time.
Hopefully you know him well enough to know if you should fear for you and your kids.
If you SENSE any kind of danger go with your gut because you know him best.
And do whatever necessary, even if you feel you might be a little paranoid at the time. If you feel you should go away for a few days, do that. Better to be safe than sorry later.
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hens says:
Myboysmattermost – I would suggest changing phone numbers and emal address. They have no limts and will continue their ‘dance’ as long as you participate. No contact is your only weapon and your ultimate salvation. Witsend is right they will move on to ‘fresh victims’ that have not seen through their mask as you have. But watch your back and you are doing the right thing by being prepared for the worse. But time is on your side, they get bored fast when you dont play with them…no contact 100% forever…
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pollyannanomore says:
Excellent point JAH on closure …
“the other person must
1. have a reasonable degree of sanity
2. have foot hold in reality
3. have empathy.”
Sanity? Nope
Reality? Nope
Empathy? Resounding nope
Not possible for us to get it from them – we have to take it for ourselves with NC as you rightly say. I still struggle with this though – still want him to admit all the wrongs and make up for them – it’s wishful thinking though at its best.
This reminded me of the steps needed for a sincere apology … how many times did we hear “I’m sorry” and then they’d go stomp on our hearts again?
A well-done apology involves at least four parts: acknowledgement, explanation, expression of remorse and reparation. I would also add to that the promise to never do the offending action again. Socios think they can get away with two simple words … and they often do.
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icanseeclearlynow says:
myboysmattermost – A ceaselessly ringing phone can drive you insane. Been there. How about unplugging it for the time being and getting yourself a cheap pay-as-you-go cell phone? That way you have no contract, no name on your cell phone to trace and you keep it on you and charged at ALL times and only tell those who are WITHOUT QUESTION COMPLETELY TRUSTWORTHY the number. If that’s only one person, than so be it.
As for how long it takes them to realize you are truly done – I have no idea. It’s true they have short attention spans, but then again they are also obsessive and NEVER LET GO to a degree. I am having that issue with the one I was with. It’s been almost 3 months now of absolute NC with him and he is still brewing and obsessing about me. It is creepy as hell.
(((HUGS)))
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ErinBrock says:
MyBoys:
Did I read it correctly….you have an order of protection?
If so……REPORT THE EMAILS AND CALLS…..it’s a violation.
He is to have NO CONTACT with you with an Protection order.
The police won’t arrest him…..but a report is made…..and a paper trail presents.
I took pics of the phone to document time and date of all calls….if he’s calling incesantly….document it all.
Only you can judge his volitility level…..from my experience….it is about the threats to you only…..I believe veyr few follow through and enjoy knowing they can control you even from afar….this is the whole reason you must report everything….
Start a notebook…..3 ring binder and print all emails and photos and keep notes of dates/times/ statements….
When you file a police report, make a copy for YOUR records….get the officers card and badge number.
This will aid when you go back to court for an extension…..whether it’s next month or in a year.
You need to ‘build’ your own case…..and present it factually showing all details.
ALSO……I was unaware of this…..but after the S got out of prosecution of one arrest for a violation where he showed up at our home and sat in the driveway…..but since it was 10:30 at night and he has tinted windows we couldnt IDENTIFY him…..like….he was wearing a blue shirt and yankees cap……
the DA dismissed it IN COURT…..BUT…the DA did advise me to obtain a stalking and harassment order IN ADDITION to an extended order of protection against DV I already had in place.
To the ‘normal’ person….If someone gained a TPO against me….that would be beyond enough to cut ties with them, so it seemed weird to ‘layer’ up on the restraining orders…..but that was what shut him away…..HE KNEW I MEANT business….
You must follow through on ANYTHING you do……once you go down the road….KEEP GOING…..its like raising kids….if you threaten them with no dessert…..ya gotta withhold it until their vegies are eaten…..if not, they know your bullshitting them and they’ll test you to the hilt.
I suggest arming yourself with a few things…..
A digi recorder….record all messages he leaves…..
A digi camera…..photograph the caller ID shoing date adn time and number called from.
I alwyas kept the two handy at all times……
I’ts a LOOONNNGGGG process…..but it does ‘end’ at some point…..and like others have said……as long as they can find a new victim….they do lose interest….but they may come back when new supply ends……like a bad storm..
Evaluate how he ticked and figure out his behaviors and when/how he ooperates……and it should give you the insight into what your dealing with.
Like the S always made threats to others….I’m gonna kick his ass, yada yada…..BUT I NEVER knew him to follow through…..I always lived in fear of a liability lawsuit….and funny enough the last 3 years….I even bought a 5 milion umbrella policy.
The reality is…..he never followed through…..he just talked the big talk……I feel confident about this now…..and so this is how i proceed with such big balls…….cautiously….but confidently. AND I have the law on my side…..I had his cronies show up at my house for a garage sale and I went after them telling them to get the hell OFF my property, they were to NEVER STEP foot on my property. I was very ballsy and used forceful unexpected to them posturing…..(counter control) with emphasis…..and you should have seen them back right up and back into their car. They thought they could intimidate me….didn’t work!
I WON”T LIVE IN FEAR!!!!
But, I do have my security in place….camera’s, motion lights etc…..I have had a few attempted break ins in the past year and I go out and go rambo.
When I think he’s ‘local’, I call the police and have them put my house on a watch. The police do drive by here regularly……and I LIKE THAT!!!
So…..keep yourself safe…..make wise decisions for YOu and kids and DO NOT LET HIM HAVE POWER OVER YOUR LIFE!!!!
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bopeep says:
Dear Lil & Jofary….I have been fighting for a year after 4 1/2 years of being with this “S” criminal. Today is the first day of my business of 21 years not being opened….ever again. I could not keep up with the bills any longer and with him filing things in court against my corp. means lawyers and money I couldnt keep up but I did try really hard. I now live in a hotel with my children and I will for the first time be going down to government for services like food, shelter,and what ever else they can do for me. I do have the FBI involved but it is such a slow process because there are many victims of this pig so they have alot of work. I am scared…but I have to trust God will help me…I just want peace in my life and I have learned alot from Oxdrover. Just a hug from me to both of you and to let you know you are not alone….
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ErinBrock says:
Bopeep.
My heart is with you…..I’m sorry for your pain and sadness.
Please remain strong and hopeful for a better tomorrow.
XXOO
EB
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Renewedhope says:
My story with my sociopathic exlover/”Friend” has been 27 years in the making! She is 15 years older than I am. She is proof positive that a lepoard never changes her spots. I will post the three times she hurt me in a love relationship because that is where she hurt me. As a friend she wasn’t too coniving so long as we were seperated by the miles. But. She drew me in 3 times. This past time several weeks ago for 2 months I should not have been because I am married. She almost helped me break up my 14 year marriage.
So here is what she did to me 3 different times over 27 years.
1983-
I met “Queenie” at a card game one night at a friends house. She was everything I always wanted in a woman. She had dark hair and the most beautiful blue eyes i ever saw. She was 15 years my senior however but that never mattered to me. Her smile melted me. She was reserved yet sweet. Or at least I thought. Anyway this woman had already had a sorted past when I met her. She had already been married and divorced to 3 different men and lived with another before “Turning Gay” just before I met her. She actually helped me get off the streets of Phoenix and she took me to her home and let me hang out with her. Immediately however she started giving me orders to do things for her. Household chores and outdoor maintenance. I felt like a houseboy. One night she had a friend over and they stayed in her room. They made noises like they were having sex. i was devastated.(I later learned from the friend that they never did anything together. That this was just a game to hurt me). One week later I flew back home to the Midwest with my tail between my legs. I kept Queenies number but heartache Number #1 was etched into my heart.
1993-
It had been ten years. but I remained friends with Queenie via the phone and letters.I had just gotten my second divorce when I picked up the phone and called Queenie to tell her. “I always wondered why you and I never got together?” She said. That was all it took. I missed the desert Southwest anyway and wanted to go back there to live. In the 6 weeks leading up to my return, Queenie had gotten my dreams and hopes up. She sent me pictures of wedding rings sets circled to the ones she liked. This made me think she wanted to marry me if everything worked out. We made small plans for the future. We spent hours on the phone talking romance and love. The day finally came and I flew to Phoenix. She waited for me to get off the plane but instead of the long awaited embrace and kisses I longed for, she seemed distant right off the bat. (And agitated)Again when got to her house I immediately got placed back into the houseboy role. Doing things for her. Everything from body massages to cutting her lawn. Then she persuaded me into going back to school so that I could get the student loan money. I also had to get a job and did so as a unlicened guard. I never saw her except for a few hours in the day and slept next to her at night. There was never the hint of sex. She seemed like an iceberg. I was becoming very depressed and unhappy. She started telling me that I was “Smothering her” How? I was the one being dominated. Finally one evening we made love. She seemed very uncomforable and never relaxed enough to enjoy it. Everything got worse from there. In the weeks ahead she started becoming more secretive. She then told me that her mother was ill in Florida and would I watch her house and dogs for her while she was away? I never once said “no” to this woman. While she was in Florida, the days went by and she hardly called. I missed her and couldn’t understand why she wasn’t calling. I called her after a week and she read me the riot act for calling her. I started getting suspicious. I started looking for letters and found what I didn’t want to see right under her side of the bed. Apparently she had found a new love-a lesbian lover. they had been writing letters to each other as I found several. That last one discussed their plans. Queenie was to fly from her mother’s home in Florida to California to be with this woman. In essence: She flew right over my head in Phoenix! A few days later I got the dreaded call that she had found someone else and that I was to vacate the house on a certain day because she was coming home with her new lover. I was again just devastated. I couldn’t understand how anyone could be so cold and calculating and not feel remorse for it. But she had NONE
.
2009-October.
Leading up to a few months ago, Queenie was just a distant friend. She had done some things for me that just kept me believing she cared about me. After i broke up with her in 1993 it took me 3 years before I started dating again. that was when I finally met the one true love in my life, my wife. Sandy and I dated for only 3 months in 1996 before we flew to Vegas and go married. The next 14 years to now have been pleasant. While we have had our share of problems we have always been close. No one had ever got between us. That is, until Queenie re-entered the picture in October of 2009.
Queenie is now 67 years old. She has maintained a non sexual relationship with a lesbian woman for 14 years now as well. I still remained “friends” with Queenie. She had always given me good advice on certain things. I got sick with bronchitis in November and she sent me a box of meds to help me recuperate. I don’t want to say she never helped me out but she showed just enough to keep the friendship afloat and me interested however remotely.
In November she told me that she thought she was dying. I had no reason to doubt her since she had surgery last year and did NOT quite recover from it as she should have. These feelings started to reappear again after she told me she thought she was going to die. I had to tell her that I still loved her and I always had..just repressed them because I had gone on with me life these past 14 years. I truly didn’t expect anything to happen after I told her. I was after all, married. Well she took my feelings and ran with it! Telling me that she “loved me too!”. Thus starting another long distance emotional affair. We talked of romance and love in emails and the phone. She however the pro that she is-limited herself to telling me she loved exclusively on the phone only. So no paper trail via the computer. I am about to come into several thousand dollars from Dad’s estate and she knew this several months ago. I believe now that she worked me. She never had to ask me for anything.. just SUGGEST certain things like. “I need a new mattress set. “”I need X amount of dollars to bail me out of the financial jam I am in..”" I need an upgrade to my computer..” I just verbally committed myself almost before she got it out of her mouth. True to form of a average Sociopath she began to get bored being snowed in up North where she lives. As the last few weeks went by she started getting more aggressive and more verbally abusive to me on the phone. We had reached a point where we decided we would not be lovers but would be friends. I still worried about her health and wanted her to call me everyday or at least every several days. Come to find out she was lying about her health too. “I am going to be care taking a friend of mine when she has knee surgery”. I asked her what is she doing taking care of someone else if she is supposedly dying? She told me again that I was” smothering” her and then two weeks ago on the phone told me that no she wasn’t going to call me or answer any emails if she didn’t feel like it. I told her then why am I supposed to go up there in a few weeks and do everything for you like put in a garden and spend $2,500 on of my dad’s inheritance on you when you can’t even act like a friend to me? I told her 2 days later in an email that I did the research and found her to have anti social personality disorder(sociopath) and that I never want to hear from her again. To lose my email and my phone number. She answered me in one small sentence:”Yes, and do NOT contact me again.” So that was it. The culmination of 27 years worth of abuse and unhappiness and disapointment. I would have ended it years ago had I known there was no hope for her to change. There just isn’t any hope for these people. They are all too self serving and narcissistic. To think i almost threw away the best wife I could ever have over a slimey, skanky, mentally disturbed woman who, could never be mine. Thank God she got bored too before the estate cleared probate. I have no doubt she has moved onto someone else who has offered her more. That is her M.O. I am thanking God for such a sweet and forgiving wife who saw me through this recent emotional affair. While she has forgiven me I have yet to forgive myself even though the affair was NOT sexual. This sociopath has had my heart and shredded it for 27 years now. I now know that the only way to “get over her” is to stay the Hell away from her. She is poison to me.
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pollyannanomore says:
Renewed hope – I am sorry you went through so many yrs of pain and disappointment with this woman. They are incredibly manipulative and can make us do anything they want. I hope you are healing from this and through reading more can learn to forgive yourself – you had good intentions in mind while this woman just wanted to fleece you. No contact is definitely the safest route for all of us here.
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Renewedhope says:
Yes after all this time of not knowing who or what I was dealing with-I now know she is a dyed in the wool sociopath! There will never be any hope for her since she had no feelings of love or empathy. In fact. I am reminded one time during the 93 episode when i was laying next to her in bed with my back turned to her and half asleep I heard her whisper the words ,”I Hate You!” under her breath. Not knowing for sure she was awake or asleep. But her voice didn’t sound like she was asleep. A few months ago I brought up that time and she acted as if I was talking about someone else! As if she never said it!
Believe me right now I am counting my lucky stars that she is out of my life!
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hopeful6596 says:
I am new on this site. I was involved with a sociopath for a year, 6 months the first time, broken up for 3 months, and then foolishly back together for another 6. He’s 39, although he lies about his age on all his dating/social networking sites, and hasn’t been able to keep a job, having been fired from his last job. After grad school at age 33, he was homeless and was a “squatter” for a while. His girlfriend at the time gave him money every day. This man is the most phenomenal liar I have ever met. He’s extremely outgoing, charming and well-educated. To attempt to make a long story short, he had me believing that I was in a real relationship, yet he was lying and cheating horribly. When I finally found out from his computer emails, I could not believe the extent this man goes to lie, and how good he is at it. From all the information on his computer, I could see all the times he called me and told me he was somewhere, when he was actually with someone else. He was actually telling one woman that he loved her, and yet he was cheating on her too, with me and all the others! He would be taunting me without me even realizing it. When we first broke up, he called me a week later and told me had had made a terrible mistake and that he couldn’t give something like this up. A week later, I found out the whole thing was a big lie, and I just couldn’t believe it. He knew I was devastated when we broke up, and yet he still called me to tell me had made a terrible mistake, knowing he was lying and cheating. We then broke up for 3 months. We got back together and he talked about wanting to do “something different” than what we had done the first time. He said he wanted to build trust. He told me that he wasn’t interested in any other woman. I gave him a book to read, that I also read. Throughout the book, the author stresses that partners need to “feel safe” with their partners. So, one night, he calls me and says that we should take the weekend to really think about what we need from one another. I was confused an didn’t understand why we needed to take the weekend apart. It was a Friday night and he said he was going to a party and I wasn’t invited. I was upset about it and he said that he was telling me we needed to think seriously about what it is we need from one another and he said that he was telling me because he wanted me to “feel safe” with him, using the exact language from the book. He showed up at my house at 2am that evening, drunk, and fell asleep. I found text messages to two women inviting them to this party. While he slept, I called and left messages for both women inviting them to call me if they were inclined. Now, one of the women, he had programmed into his contacts as “dad.” I remember that when he was wanting me to trust him more, he would show me he was getting a phone call and it said “dad.” He would say, “See? It’s my father.” He wouldn’t answer the call in my presence and he would say that he was talking to his “dad” a lot lately since he was trying to process their troubled relationship. What a liar! It was this other woman. Anyway, I woke him up and told him what I found and he grabbed the phone away from me> I told him to leave at least 8 times and he swore at me. I was sobbing and do you know what he did? He fell asleep and was snoring in no time. I called the police and had him get a cab a go home. In the morning, both women called me and I found out just what a disturbed liar he is. I also had the occasion to speak with a male friend who had known him for 12 years and he said that my ex was always a shameless womanizer. My ex denied this and insists that he has been faithful with women. He told me he learned his lesson and was going to therapy and wouldn’t be dating for a long time. He wanted me to still hang out with him, and insisted he wouldn’t be sleeping with anyone else, since he had a lot of “work” to do on himself. Now, as an aside, the first time we broke up he said the same thing and he admitted when we got back together that it was a lie and he never went. Anyway, I have found out that he never went to therapy this time either and he met someone else shortly after we broke up–so much for not dating and working on himself– and he even spent the holidays with her family. Her family is fairly well-off and her father is a doctor. I am devastated because he even got off the site he was using to cheat on me. This guy’s behavior has been so pathological, and I am devastated thinking that he is really changed with her. Intellectually, I know this isn’t possible, but I am still devastated and filled with anxiety. He is such a parasite. I can see him latching on to someone with a well-off family, when he decides he wants to be taken care of. Can someone offer words of advice? I am so fixated on this other relationship he is having and the thought he is a “different person” with her.
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Renewedhope says:
Sounds like your relationship with your ex was the same as mine. WE were the only ones taking part in the relationship! They just kept us interested enough to use us. I know you are like me and that you still feel “Love” and a Tie to a unrequited love. But remember please! They can’t feel love! They don’t have any empathy. But most importantly, they don’t respect us at all otherwise they wouldn’t do what they did to us. They will do it to you 1000 times if you let them! My advice to you is the same that I am taking: Carry on with your life and try to forget this leech! You deserve alot better!
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hopeful6596 says:
Renewed Hope,
Thanks for your kind comment. Yes. I was the only one doing the work, but he was good at making me feel like he was really in it and really trying. I just thought he was a man with some intimacy issues. I’m telling you, this man is phenomenal liar. I don’t know why it is important for me to hear that he isn’t going to be “different” with this woman, but it IS, and that is, unfortunately, where I’m at. I really feel traumatized.
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ErinBrock says:
A person of whom we can FIX!
Take this into the future………
RED FLAG, RED FLAG, RED FLAG
Hopeful…..don’t worry or judge yourself about what/where/when…..we all seem to need some answers of sorts…..or clarity ……because there seems to be as many answers as months/years we were with the S.
Some things we can figure out/ or put together…..some we may never know and must accept as ‘is’.
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ErinBrock says:
DAD? Oh….good one!
What a sleeze!
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hopeful6596 says:
Erin Brock,
I know—”dad” — He’s clever, isn’t he? And here I am worried about a guy like that being able to change.
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ErinBrock says:
Red Flags. According to Dr. Carver
http://www.loserrx.com/flags/
Were you the ‘love of their life’, their ‘soulmate’ or new best friend within weeks?
Were they initially charming, saying all the right things, “mirroring” your hopes, desires, and feelings?
Are they jealous and possessive?
Do they have few friends or long-term relationships?
Multiple failed relationships?
Do they badmouth their ex or other friends?
Do they tell lies, big and small?
Does the relationship veer from hot to cold? Do they “Jekyll and Hyde”?
Do they have an unstable work history, frequent unemployment or
job changes?
Do you find yourself “covering” for them, making them appear better than they really are?
Do they have constant financial problems?
Are people mad at them because they don’t honor their debts?
Do they have a lack of realistic goals? A history of living off others?
Are they comfortable taking money from you?
Have they ever used your credit cards without your knowledge?
Do they make you feel guilty about your outside interests, time spent with friends or family?
Do they make you feel you’re not good enough, that you’re lucky to
have them?
Have they ever humiliated you in public?
Do they withdraw love, friendship or approval as punishment?
Do they have a bad temper triggered by something seemingly insignificant? Do you often not even know what set them off?
Do they always shift blame onto you? Is whatever’s wrong always your fault?
After raging, do they act like nothing at all has happened?
Do you ever feel “smothered” by them?
Do they ever threaten, hit or shove you, punch walls, break your things or call you names?
Are they always on the “outs” with someone?
Do they pressure you to quit or change jobs/friends/relationships/homes?
Do they have problems with authority figures?
Stalked anyone for any reason whatsoever?
Have they had Restraining Orders?
Is your self-esteem eroding?
Do you sometimes feel you’re the crazy one?
Is the relationship affecting other aspects of your life?
Do you have a gut, “sick” sense that things just aren’t right?
Do you sometimes wish it would just all “go away”?
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