LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Boundaries, zero tolerance, closure, moving on
Editor’s note: This article was submitted by a Lovefraud reader.
It has been about a year since my story was posted on Lovefraud, Not one thing about him was real. It has been two years since I broke off the short relationship with this disordered man. It is a year and a half since he stalked me. I hope to share at least some practical points that have helped me in the healing process. It does get better. And it is a process.
I wish I could say that others may be helped PRIOR to involvement with a sociopath, but as we all know, sometimes the inevitable entanglement occurs before we even realize we have been manipulated. This entanglement would have ended much earlier if I had had clear boundaries, zero tolerance for lies and bad behavior, and the will to walk away alone and create my own closure.
There are many events and bizarre experiences with him, his family, his indiscretions, the pathological lies. I now realize that the ONLY purpose to ANYTHING he did was to make himself look good, please himself, hide the truth, devalue others for his own perceived greatness, impress people and get off on his lies and deceptions. He loves that he manipulates people to admire him as the hero, and to come to his defense as the broken victim that he plays so well. He doesn’t want you to realize he IS the stereotypical villain. He was just good at imitating the qualities that are truly admirable like modesty, bravery and dependability. Telling people he was a Navy SEAL hero, working for the NSA, CIA, using aliases, killing terrorists, giving away fake medals, telling stories of being tortured. It’s always about him. And what he calls LOVE is more like an OBSESSION.
He surrounds himself with people who are weak, easily manipulated and vulnerable. They WILL turn their heads to the truth. He wants them to need him. It’s tantamount for HIS very survival. Smart people will question him. Weak people will live the lie, sometimes because they need something from him and sometimes because they are just too weak to admit they have been conned. It’s tantamount for THEIR survival. I know because I was there for a short time. It’s a vicious circle and a world of denial that feeds his sociopathic hunger. In reality, he needs his victims more. He is only as good as the reflection he sees in the eyes of the victim. When I questioned his veracity, I was disloyal. But I was right. I asked good questions (eventually) and he could not keep up the rotting facade of his fabricated life.
Back to basics
I had to get back to basics in order to trust others, myself, my instincts, my intuition, my belief system, religion and all the rules I used to live by. I had to respect myself, gain back my self-esteem and learn to be tolerant but ONLY of those who do not violate my beliefs and boundaries. I also had to learn to stop accepting bad behavior much earlier and stop the self defeating behavior I recognized in myself.
I made lists of those “boundaries” and used them along with real life examples of behaviors that were no longer tolerable. The will to keep those boundaries safe came from the anger I felt after revisiting conversations and events and learning all of the lies. It was painful. I needed to forgive myself, not him, and I decided I would never allow that behavior again EVER.
I was mind raped. No doubt. I lost an innocence, not unlike being a rape victim. The abuse and exploitation is so ambient at times that you don’t even realize what has happened. It is ridden with intermittent generosity and professions of love while your thoughts, actions and behaviors are so closely controlled through undermining manipulation, guilt and shame. You are in a whirlpool of words and actions that are so inconsistent. And manipulation that has you believing you are wrong, and that everything you learned to date is wrong and that what you are witnessing must be real, while all you know to be right and good has defied you. My intelligence and good rationale failed me. Still I wanted to believe and have hope and faith.
I made lists
It was therapeutic for me to make lists:
- Things he took from me.
- Things I gave up to him.
- Lies he told.
- Red flags I ignored.
- Names he called me.
- Things he did and said to violate me and my children and friends and all the things he did (behaviors) which were inconsistent with the things he said.
I was too manipulated for far too long. NO MORE. Finally I understood that there was nothing of substance there in him to begin with. I thought he had more to offer me than I had to offer myself. But it was I who had what he wants and needs desperately. Perhaps he saw an innocence, a vulnerability, a naïveté about me and he knew I could be conned.
As much as I read and studied narcissism, sociopathy, and any number of disorders, I still could not comprehend why he lied and cheated as he did and why I allowed him to keep coming back for more. Someone told me that normal, healthy people cannot make sense of irrational, impulsive and sometimes delusional behavior because we simply rationalize. People who are disordered and impulsive just do what they do because they can and it benefits themselves in some way. It truly is that simple.
Creating boundaries
There are things I have learned to practice that have allowed me to find closure, take my power back, regain my confidence, which hopefully will keep me from EVER making this mistake again. I don’t need someone else to provide closure to a bad relationship or situation I never did. It was in me all along.
Creating Boundaries: These are mine:
- HONESTY … I ignored my instincts and the facts even when I caught him in lies.
- INTEGRITY … He was not and never will be a man of his word.
- FIDELITY/LOYALTY … The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. (He cheated constantly on his previous wife, on me and on his current wife. I have been told she is wearing the same engagement ring I wore.)
- RESPECT … (The verbal abuse, the cheating, the lying, the inability to do as he says are ALL encompassing of issues of respect). The bad behavior, spitefulness, drug abuse and allowing all of the above with his adult daughters.
I learned all over again to verbalize my rule of zero tolerance. I didn’t always speak up in the presence of the sociopath because he HAD to be in control and raged or had a tantrum for days.
The closure I seek these days, which I learned as a practice from my therapist, is that when someone is disrespectful, lies or doesn’t treat me well, that I need to close it off with direct communication about what I think and feel and to NOT let them back in again. When I do, I feel like I am in control of my life, my beliefs, and displaying respect for myself (and in an appropriate way). I have truly taken my power back. It is important for me to say, “Don’t contact me again. You are behaving inappropriately. I am not interested in you any longer. I don’t like what you just said to me.” IT IS ok to protect yourself first. I explain this at the risk of sounding juvenile or patronizing but I truly had to relearn these practices, which came so naturally to me previous to the sociopath.
Recognizing my value
All of our lives are eventually a result of the decisions we make. This is particularly true of the sociopath. In fact, I prefer to believe that his life is like a constant panic of desperation to gain what others have, what he needs to see in our reflection to fill the emptiness of his disturbed soul. He can’t fulfill his own fantasies fast enough and so he scrambles daily to find victims to manipulate in order to feel superior.
Recently, this man’s family and new friends found the truth about him on an internet site where he has been exposed as a military impostor and con man. He has known of the exposure for two years after an investigation. He chose not to respond then. He has dishonored those who served and gave of their lives. Other women/people have now come forward and also identified him and his stories. Justice comes in strange ways sometimes. He counted on all of his victims to cower to his intimidations but HE is the coward. Those who continue to live the lie are the cowards. Yet he still has potential to be prosecuted for his crimes. HE IS EXPOSED. I prefer to be on this end simply observing the drama that he is creating with his new followers and family, with no involvement.
At some point I saw more value in what the sociopath had to offer me than in what I had in myself. And I was willing to give myself up to be what he wanted, demanded, expected. The abuse I suffered as a target of a sociopath has taken a toll. To recover, I first had to clear the fog, find myself, and understand my value and importance.
There is a kind of confidence that is exuded when we know who we are and what we want and don’t deviate too much from that. People see it in us and respect it as well. The road is long and this experience with this dysfunctional man will stay with me for a long time. I found myself through recognizing my value and making sure it is respected and appreciated, if not by someone else, by ME. After all, I am the one who has to face me every day.
written by Lovefraud Reader • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Dear Donna,
This article SPEAKS TO YOUR POWER—and the POWER WE ALL HAVE, IF WE WILL JUST GRASP AND USE IT!
!!!!! –0 !!!!! PLATINUM SKILLET AWARD FOR THIS ONE!
(To the audience) APPLAUSE APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!! WOW! A Standing ovation, Take a bow Donna, you deserve it!!!!!!
And, thank you donna, for showing us all that we also have this power, this power to SEE THE TRUTH, SET BOUNDARIES, TO ENFORCE THEM, AND TO VALIDATE OURSELVES AND TO HAVE A LIFE, A REAL LIFE, FREE OF THE LIES AND MANIPULATION OF OTHER PEOPLE!
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 11:35am
Matt says:
:
I began posting shortly after your original article. Our journeys have run parallel in so many respects. You became such an important part of my healing process. Of course, I guess that’s why we became such good friends in real life.
“At some point I saw more value in what the sociopath had to offer me than in what I had in myself. And I was willing to give myself up to be what he wanted, demanded, expected. The abuse I suffered as a target of a sociopath has taken a toll. To recover, I first had to clear the fog, find myself, and understand my value and importance.”
It was this abnegation of self that was one of the worst things for me to grapple with in the aftermath. I now understand, courtesy of books like “The Betrayal Bond” and “If You Had Controlling Parents” how my sense of self was always pretty shakey and my boundaries were very weak, two factors which played beautifully into S’s colonization of my mind. But, it was the fact that I allowed myself to become obliterated that was so difficult for me to grasp.
I now see that in a wierd way thats awful as it was, I almost needed to “learn the lesson of S.” After S I finally learned how to draw some hard and non-negotiable boundaries. After S, I learned to say no and not honor my word, if to do so would be detrimental to me. After S, I re-evaluated the people in my life and, if they were found lacking, I got rid of them. After S, I established new criteria for the people I chose to let into my life. While I realize I suffered substantial losses while I was involved with S, I have also made tremendous gains in gaining the tools for how to live the kind of life I alwas wanted.
“As much as I read and studied narcissism, sociopathy, and any number of disorders, I still could not comprehend why he lied and cheated as he did and why I allowed him to keep coming back for more.” So, true. Like you, I studied sociopathy/narcissism, etc. I had “Without Conscience” and “The Sociopath Next Door” memorized. But, I still couldn’t grasp why he acted this way. And that’s when I realized I was asking the wrong question. The question wasn’t why he acted this way, the question was why I allowed him to act this way toward me. Once I framed the question that way, I began to heal, because I put the focus back where it belonged — on me.
So many people on this website twist themselves into pretzels trying to figure out “why he/she acts this way”, “surely there must be more I can do to win back that wonderful person I fell in love with” etc, etc. But, as you so eloquently put it, that isn’t the issue. They are damaged beyond repair. And if we, the victims, don’t put the focus on us in order to heal, we will be damaged beyond repair.
Wonderful article and thanks again, for sharing.
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 12:04pm
OxDrover says:
MY PARDON— my admiration for this powerful article still stands, and also my admiration for Donna for LF and all the time and effort she puts into it.
Thanks, Matt, your comment is also a very powerful piece of writing, outlining that control must be taken by ourselves.
Thin that Rolodex, Bro!!!! Weeding our gardens of life!
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 12:14pm
Matt says:
OxDrover:
How you doin’ (to quote Wendy Williams, love that show)?
Went on a job interview yesterday. While I”m still crushed over the screw-over my ex-boss did on my getting my dream job, I’ve decided I’ll take what I can in the interim, view it as a “bridge job” until I can get what I want.
Am enjoying the holiday season. Put up a 9 foot tree this weekend with the BF and then went out to do an early XMAS dinner since he’s leaving the country for 3 weeks to go back to see his mother abroad.
I just realized that my first article was posted on Love Fraud a year ago, on 11 December 2008. As hard as this year has been between driving off S-ex,losing my job and health problems, I finally feel my life is on the right track on the personal front. Now I need to get things nailed down on the professional front.
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 12:29pm
recovering says:
Someone recently sent this reminder to me about “letting go” — a message by Rev. T.D. Jakes. Even if one is inclined to identify as more “spiritual” as I do, rather than religious per se, there is relevance here in our journey of struggling to understand the encounters with N/S disordered persons and various other life challenges, and being able to move forward and grow toward “knowing with humility” (a favorite term of mine from the late M. Scott Peck, M.D.) — in stages of acceptance…
There are people who can walk away from you. And hear me when I tell you this — when people can walk away from
you: let them walk.
I don’t want you to try to talk another person into staying with
you, loving you, calling you, caring about you, coming to see you, staying attached to you. I mean hang up the phone.
When people can walk away from you, let them walk. Your destiny is never tied to anybody that left. The bible said that, they came out from us that it might be made manifest that they were not for us. For had they been of us, no doubt they would have continued with us. [1 John 2:19]. People leave you because they are not joined to you. And if they are not joined to you, you can’t make them stay. Let them go.
And it doesn’t mean that they are a bad person — it just means that their part in the story is over. And you’ve got to know when people’s part in your story is over so that you don’t keep trying to raise the dead.. You’ve got
to know when it’s dead.
You’ve got to know when it’s over. Let me tell you something.. I’ve got the gift of good-bye. It’s the tenth spiritual gift, I believe in good-bye. It’s not that I’m hateful, it’s that I’m faithful, and I know whatever God means for me to have He’ll give it to me. And if it takes too much sweat, I don’t need it. Stop begging people to stay…Let them go!
If you are holding on to something that doesn’t belong to you and was never intended for your life, then you need to…LET IT GO!
If you are holding on to past hurts and pains …LET IT GO!
If someone can’t treat you right, love you back, and see your worth…LET IT GO!
If someone has angered you…LET IT GO!
If you are holding on to some thoughts of evil and revenge…
LET IT GO!
If you are involved in a wrong relationship or addiction…
LET IT GO!
If you are holding on to a job that no longer meets your needs or talents…LET IT GO!
If you have a bad attitude…LET IT GO!
If you keep judging others to make yourself feel better..LET IT GO!
If you’re stuck in the past and God is trying to take you to a new level in Him…LET IT GO!
If you are struggling with the healing of a broken relationship…LET IT GO!
If you keep trying to help someone who won’t even try to help themselves…LET IT GO!
If you’re feeling depressed and stressed…LET IT GO!
If there is a particular situation that you are so used to handling yourself and God is saying ‘take your hands off of it,’ then you need to…LET IT GO!
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 12:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Matt,
I’m actually doing pretty well, and so are my sons!
Finally heard from the X-friends with a pity letter (e mail) said hadn’t been able to contact me sooner because had lost my phone number (but obviously had NOT lost my e mail) and also complained that son D “wouldn’t answer his pone” since Jan 15, I asked D about that and he said, Nope, that was the last time they had called him, wanting money and he had said NO.
I didn’t answer the first e mail of them wanting to get together with US to make arrangements to get the stuff out of storage (there is nothing left there but rained on trash and boxes of rained on books now) So then I get this second e mail asking if the first e mail got through and hinting that they are COMING out here.
They have had a KEY to the storage building from the get go and have come and gone from there at will without coming up here or notifying us they are going to the storage. For years they are under constraint to NOT come to the farm proper unless they call FIRST before coming. (which they highly resent that boundary and I have caught the wife crossing it when she thought I was gone and I wasn’t)
So I had intended not to reply to their e mails, but as son D pointed out the whole thing about the stuff in storage and the e mail to “get together” wasn’t about the stuff in storage, but about US and seeing US—DUH! Of course it was!
So I wrote an e mail back to them telling them that they had a Key to the storage and if they had lost it they had my permission to kick open the door which is easily done in any case, to get their stuff. I also said that I saw no need in them “getting together with us” and if they decided to pay my son D back the money they owed him, they could mail him a check. (they didn’t think I knew about that one)
So I get back a poor pity part e mail of “well I guess I shouldn’t bother you with my problems, I’m in a wheel chair all the time now and ya da ya da.
Well, having worked with spinal cord injured patients in rehabilitation, I am not used to being thrown into a pity by someone being in a WC as it is quite possible to have a good life even in a wheel chair and I know lots of people who have had great lives while confined to a WC, but because our X-friend chooses to sit in a WC (which he has been in 90% of the time for the last 30 years,) and feel that the world owes him a living, and everyone else has to do his bidding and wait on him hand and foot while he sits in a marijuana and Rx Pill stupor feeling sorry for himself doesn’t fly with me. Which I told him in the return e mail. Which I open copied to mutual friends and acquaintances that he has been loudly complaining to recently about how we have “Abandoned” him in his hour of greatest (pitiful) need. (Smear campaign recruiting these people to try to put pressure on us to take care of him).
Unfortunately, his “smear and pressure campaign” sort of back fired on him as the people involved saw through it as well as we have. His and his wife’s problems now is that they have “used up” all their friends and we were the last hope they had to get someone to “do for” them.
These people aren’t classifiable psychopaths, but they are highly dependent people who want others to take care of their needs. I call it MOOCHES. They make poor spending choices, then borrow money that they can’t pay back. No matter what you do for them or give them, it NEVER HELPS THEM because they are not willing to see WHY they are in the financial hole they are in, that it is the result of THEIR POOR CHOICES.
They envy anyone who has more, and don’t get the idea that the reason the other person has more is because that other person made BETTER choices, like not spending money on non-essentials when money was tight. Like saving money for a “rainy day” when money was in better supply.
In any case, in spite of promises to pay my son the money borrowed, I doubt we will ever hear from them again. My son D has finally “seen the light” where these people are concerned, and that is a good thing. It was a pretty big grief for him but he is about through the process. In fact, I am getting pretty impressed by how much my sons are both learning about people who would take advantage of you in any way. About those that you can “help” and those that all you would be doing to try to “help” them would be to enable them to continue in their dysfunctional behavior patterns.
My sons are becoming amazingly wise men at a much earlier age than I garnered the wisdom needed about people.
Our little “garden of friends” is no longer choked with WEEDS that suck the sustenance out of the soil of our souls.
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 12:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Recovering, You and I were posting over each other, but your post is awesome. I’ve seen it before but it is one of those things that we must MUST KEEP IN OUR HEARTS AND MINDS.
Thanks for posting this!
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 1:04pm
recovering says:
Hey OxDrover — I feel so blessed to be among this healing group of people at Lovefraud, and I want to give encouragement whenever I can since I receive so much support directly and indirectly from others who are willing to share their experiences and wisdom.
And I notice that you in particular do such a great job in welcoming new people. I thank you for that, since all of us have different gifts that can benefit this healing group as a whole.
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 2:02pm
Rosa says:
Matt said, “She walked away from the person who was causing her pain and created her own closure. I had to do the same thing.”
Me too. That’s how I had to do it.
Disordered individuals are not really interested in sitting down and having a “heart-to-heart”.
I think a large part of life is really about looking within yourself and knowing exactly who YOU are as a person.
It’s like the Whitney Houston song, “Greatest Love of All”, when she sings, “learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all. And if by chance that special place, that you’ve been dreaming of, leads you to a lonely place, find your strength in love.”
Depending on a sociopath or any disordered individual for closure in a relationship is just not healthy, as far as I am concerned.
Hell, a sociopath will convince you that the only way you can get closure is to kill yourself.
That’s how sick they are.
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 2:37pm
OxDrover says:
QUOTE ROSA: “Hell, a sociopath will convince you that the only way you can get closure is to kill yourself.”
TRUER WORDS WERE NEVER SPOKEN, ROSA!!! You put it in such a nice concise sentence!
Matt, I love hearing your strength and your determination and how far you have come since you logged on here. Your advice is so good and so right on!
While we (suvivors) DO have empathy and compassion for those who are still grieving and wounded, at the same time, we must speak the TRUTH of HEALING. The “medicine” of healing may be truth that doesn’t “taste” good, or that the healing doesn’t want to take, but never0the-less we must speak the truth.
I got to thinking about working with diabetic patients, and the ONLY way for a diabetic to manage their disease is to TAKE CONTROL of their life and make GOOD CHOICES. All the medicine in the world won’t do a bit of good if they dont’ make those changes.
I even had one patient who was DETERMINED not to make any changes, totally UNWILLING TO, scream at me “Don’t give me those diets, just give me more insulin!”
I didn’t motivate every diabetic patient I had to make those GOOD CHOICES any mroe than we here at LF will be able to motivate every victim here to take charge of his/her life and make GOOD CHOICES in the future–but just as managing diabetes is NOT dependent upon the medical professional, it is dependent on the PATIENT, so is our healing.
I used to tell my patients that it was a “do it yourself disease” and that I was like a coach, I couldn’t get out on the field and play the game, but on the other hand, if they didn’t know the RULES of the game, they couldn’t play a good game either.
As survivors in various stages of healing I see us as coaches for the new members of the healing team. I see our roles to SPEAK THE TRUTH, and to support others by our compassion and empathy with the hard times they are having, but speaking the TRUTH above all is I think the most important part of our mutual support.
I also notice that some fairly new members who have come here in great pain, QUICKLY start to reach their hands out to other members who have fallen down. I think this helping others while we ourselves are still learning the “game” is also a big issue in helping us to heal ourselves. Extending a compassionate hand to others helps to give us strength in our own healing journey. That’s why I am still here at LF after nearly 2 years (I can’t even remember exactly when I joined) I know it was well over a year ago, because Matt and Henry have been here a year, and I was here way before that.
I am reinforcing MY own RESOLVE to LIVE THE TRUTH, to see the truth, to think the truth, to reconginze the truth, and to share that truth with others, and that truth is that we must each of us find our own truth, our own faith in ourselves, and to use that faith to heal ourselves. God bless each of us on our journeys! (((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 3:05pm
slimone says:
Hello All,
The making-choices piece is what came to me after reading this article this morning and letting it percolate. How at every turn during my encounter with the suckhole I had a choice to make. And I can say I made poor choices. Self-defeating, self-doubting, self-negating choices. I chose to ignore my gut feelings, my rational thoughts, my friendsand therapist’s admonitions, my emotional turmoil. I chose to believe in someone else more than I did myself. I chose fantasy over reality. I had been doing this my entire life.
And the deal is the longer I negated myself, the worse the consequences, until, POOF!, the suckholes began to appear!
I made these choices because I had false beliefs about myself along the lines of “I am not capable of knowing what I want…..I am not deserving of individual attention and care…..I am emotionally disabled……I cannot think for myself…..etc”. Things I learned from my momster (thank-you Henry!), and other abusers from my childhood/past.
And for me too, the encounter has opened me up in such a way that I am learning to live my life as fully awake and aware as I have ever been. I never thought I would hear myself say this. I could not have imagined it two years ago.
I am still ’shaky’ with this new powersuit, with jet propulsion, on. But I am getting the hang of saying no, and meaning it. Of staying away from anyone who ‘vibes’ me out, without needing to get close enough to ‘validate’ my senses….trusting my guts. Of making comittments to myself, and keeping them. Of resisting the need to always be nice, of manipulating others into loving me because I am. Of not always being ‘helpful’ (thank-you Oxy for your ceaseless examples of what real help is, and is not!).
I have been here about a year, with over two years no contact. I am so grateful for this blog. For the wisdom and truth of healing.
Congratulations to all of us…..where ever we are on our journey of healing and awakening…..Slim
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Wednesday, 9 December 2009 @ 3:43pm
alohatraveler says:
“I saw more value in what the sociopath had to offer me than in what I had in myself.”
I resemble that remark. Very powerful. Thank you for this. I too made lists… mine is here somewhere on LoveFraud Land.
Thanks for sharing your story and about your recovery. Truly
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 2:15am
becoming says:
Love this post (love ALL the posts) and it’s that huge shift from them to us that’s the tough bit. We’re many of us, because of our history, primed to give away our power and believe we’re bottom of the heap, last in line, the one who has to MAKE it right and not the one who HAS any rights. When you come out of the fog it’s like being hit by a truck when you see what you’ve allowed. Gotta be kind to ourselves then, instead of turning the hatred inward and creating even more shame.
Slimone you say:
I am still ’shaky’ with this new powersuit, with jet propulsion, on. But I am getting the hang of saying no, and meaning it. Of staying away from anyone who ‘vibes’ me out, without needing to get close enough to ‘validate’ my senses….trusting my guts. Of making comittments to myself, and keeping them. Of resisting the need to always be nice, of manipulating others into loving me because I am. Of not always being ‘helpful’ (thank-you Oxy for your ceaseless examples of what real help is, and is not!).
Love it. Me too and I’m working Oxy’s brilliant Silver Rule where I can. Shocked myself the other day when I was doing my bit of voluntary work and instead of letting them put it all on me while they sat about with their heads up their a**ses like I always do I found myself strolling up to the table and in a sing-song voice saying, “I’m doing all the f***ing work” with a sarcastic grimace on my face. They sat there and smiled a bit, one weakly said, “Sorry” and made to move to get up and help. I couldn’t believe the words came out of my head! I think I read in ‘The Betrayal Bond’ that where we usually under-react ie have no boundaries, we have to be aware of not over-reacting too and I think I might have done that as it was new to me to have an opinion and not just do what they wanted me to do. Hee hee. It was funny. My therapist says with practise I’ll get the balance right but maybe a few more folk’ll get an earful first. Oh well. They’ll live.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 3:56am
OxDrover says:
Dear Becoming!!!! TOWANDA and TOWANDA again!!! Setting those first boundaries –ah jmy goodness how I waffled over how to do it and cried at having to do so. LOL I look kback and I think OMG! What a WOOSEEE I was!
Some (Now) X-friends of ours were staying out here at the farm in their RV (a couple) and I had just returned to the farm and my RV was parked out by the hangar where my food-storage freezers are plugged in and I still hadn’t moved back into my house so I was close to the hangar and in the middle of the night, I actually caught (thanks to my little dog) the woman going into my food freezers and HELPPING HERSELF. Now, mind you, IF SHE HAD ASKED I could have given her the food, but she was SNEAKING and TAKING, which just pithed me off good. I didn’t say anything to her but just looked at her and she turned red and made funny noises trying to think of something to say after being caught red handed.
I was so pithed—but I didn’t have the guts to confront her about it, so I simply started locking the freezers and didn’t say anything about locking them to her, though I quite imagine she found out they were locked.
Eventually, though, I had to confront her and her husband, and I did set boundaries, they didn’t respect it, and so I finally asked them to leave the farm. They have sense violated other boundaries, and this time they contacted us again, after 8 months of not hearing from them, my sons and I have notified them that we are “done” with them and they don’t need to contact us again unless they want to pay back the money they borrowed from my son, and they can MAIL THAT BACK.
These people are not even psychopaths, though the wife of the couple does have some serious issues with sticky finigers, but they were my first effort at setting bondaries with people who were “close to” me. I’ve never had any problem with setting boundaries with people who were NOT family or close friends, but it was almost impossible for me to set a boundary for someone close. I would lay down and let them walk across my back. But no more.
It does feel odd to stand up for yourself though, and like you are being “rude” when in fact, you are just confronting rude. It may not make you “popular” with some folks, but I’m past caring about “popular” lilke I did in 10th grade, if “popular” means I have to walk on egg shells around people who oare walking across my back with hobb-nailed boots.
The thing that is important to remeber, I think, about boundaries is that when you set one, be prepared for the relationship to “go south” if they do not respect you. But I am more than prepared to LOSE the relationships that are not honest and good and in which I am not respected. You keep on Becoming, I think you are doing great!!!! You’ll have those training wheels off in no time. (I used my son for my training wheels, because before I would set a boundary I would ask him “is this a reasonable boundary?” before I set it, I was that unsure of myself! Now I just set the boundary, MY boundary!)
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 8:07am
Cat says:
Good morning everyone!
Awesome post and all the comments as well.
Survivor, AWESOME article. I have read and re-read it and will most likely read some more. Each time I come away with something new.
“I was mind raped. No doubt. I lost an innocence, not unlike being a rape victim. The abuse and exploitation is so ambient at times that you don’t even realize what has happened. It is ridden with intermittent generosity and professions of love while your thoughts, actions and behaviors are so closely controlled through undermining manipulation, guilt and shame. You are in a whirlpool of words and actions that are so inconsistent.”
This really hit home with me. When I was growing up, my father had a favorite line we all heard on a regular basis. “Don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal. If you do one, you’re doing all 3.” He was right, too. For me, none of those were an option and I’ve come to see that my ex P. used my morals as a front for all of the lying, cheating and stealing HE was doing. I couldn’t have BEGUN to think up the games he played, using people, all of it. Yet, because of all of this, I believe I will actually learn more and be a stronger person for it. Mind raped? You bet.
TODAY is a different story.
Ox, GREAT point about being prepared for relationships to go “south” when there is no respect. I’ve been dealing with this, as you know and I found out I’m not going to die and the world won’t end if certain people are not in my life. I can’t bend or stretch those boundaries for ANYONE. It’s a new thing I’m working on, but I LIKE it. The power of the word, “NO” is new to me and I practice using it now, a LOT. When I found out my ex P. was using MY computer to meet other women (and men), I locked it down, pass coded it and put parental controls on. Should have seen the fit over that one! I realize now that that was setting a boundary as well and I had already begun, though I didn’t know it. Never did change them like he ordered me to. Like putting the locks on the freezers, it was a big “NO” to them.
recovery, your post is EXCELLENT! Let go, let go, let go. I already copied and pasted this list. For me, being new in this, first I have to recognize it, then I can apply this list to it. I wouldn’t call myself religious, but more spiritual, yet I believe firmly there is a God who is all loving, knowing and seeing.
I learn every single day and I come to LF to do that. I didn’t believe there was anyone who would believe me until I came here. I had gotten SO tired of people telling me it was all in my head. Actually, they were right, just not in the way they thought.
So much of what I learn here, I am now taking it and putting it into action, one day at a time.
Hugs and thank you’s to all,
Cat
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 10:22am
SocioFree says:
Hi everyone,
Haven’t posted in a long time but absolutely loved Donna’s article and had to reply. I’ve been Sociofree for a year now, after a two-year on and off stint with the toxic man. I am happy to report that I am no longer:
- thiking of him daily
- wondering why he did certain things
- planning a revenge
- wondering when he’ll try to call again
- wondering who he’s seeing now
- reading any book I can get my hands on on sociopathy and disordered bhaviours
- talking to others about him
- mssing the way he made me feel when he put on the charm
- reading back his texts and emails
- etc…etc…
I had much the same closure as Donna did in terms of making lists though, of things he took, lies he told me, red flags ignored, which was really eye-opening and therapeutic.
Some of the comments in Donna’s article that really resonated were:
- “mind raped”
- “rotten facade of a fabricated life”
- “damaged beyond repair”
- “scrambled daily to find victims to manipulate to feel superior”
- “needs to see in our reflection to fill the emptiness of their disturbed soul”
- “they get offf on our belief in their lies”
I agree with several of the commentaries that in a way, our encounter with a sociopath has added wisdom to our lives, and helped define more clearly than if we had not gone through the experience, what our belief in ourselves is, and what our personal boundaries are, for relationships and friendships. I am now crystal clear on those boundaries (and have made a few “Please do not contact me again” statements since), and that is very empowering.
We’ve become wise and textured by this encounter with toxic, manipulative and disordered individuals…We’ve learned to profess love to ourselves, as opposed to accept false love professed by an imposter.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 10:49am
OxDrover says:
Dear Socio-Free,
TOWANDA!!! glad you are still around! Good GOOD post and I am sure it helps others realize tht there IS A LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, and it is NOT an ON-coming train! (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 10:57am
banana says:
Matt,
Off topic: do you recall the Landmark case allowing the custodial person to move (not have a limit placed on the location of tehir residence)?
PS: your post truly complemented Donna’s article.
Thanks.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 11:12am
banana says:
Recovering.
Thank you for your post. I have copied and will print it!
Oxy…BTW my mom (who I suspect is about your age) is also a NP. I hear the same stories from her ; )
About Closure with a S/P. I felt/feel with my S/P that he will never give me closure because he doesn’t want it.
He wants it ALL, he wants ALL his GF’s, wives, what ever they are, he dragged the last ex along throughout our engagement.
He dropped his “abusive” parents just weeks before our wedding, but called them up, just months later, like it was no big deal the MINUTE I discovered I was pregnant.
THEY were AWFUL parents, but they’ll be GREAT grandparents….sure.
No closure because they want to keep you “IN CASE”
just MHO
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 11:26am
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
I assume you are saying your mother is a nurse practitioner, not a Narssist/psychopath. LOL Does your mom live close to you? Is she supportive of you (I hope)?
Yes, he will string you along as long as he gets any satisfaction (attention) from you, but eventually he will have another woman move to the top of the “I’ll get revenge” list. I feel bad wishing that on anyone, but it is one of those things like “better her than me” feelings–or as we say, “If theya re gossiping about her, they are leaving me alone” (or vice versa)
It could be that one or both of his parents are Ns or Ps, or it could be that they have just “had it” with him, like with my son, it was impossible to be a “good parent” to him after he morphed into a monster.
I assume that your question to matt above was that you are thinking about moving to “India” to get away from him. That might work, it does sometimes, other times the courts won’t let you move out of state.. It just depends, I think, but it might be worth a try! LOL
Just keep on hanging in there and disconnecting the buttons that he is trying to push! If he doesn’t get a reaction he will eventually get tired of no reaction. Just like a rat in a cage that has been programmed to get a treat everytime it pushes the lever, if it gets no treat, it will EVENTUALLY give up on pounding on that lever. YOU just have to be patient and see that he NEVER GETS A TREAT/REWARD. I mean NEVER because if you give him a reward intermittently (once in a while) it will only make him more determined to keep on trying! So hang in there! YOU CAN DO IT. Maybe his OW will get tired of changing diapers and taking care of the baby. Love Oxy
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 11:39am
slimone says:
Becoming,
Yeah, it takes awhile. I still do a bit of over-reacting when sticking up for myself, or setting boundaries. It is a practice thing. Total congratulations to you for doing the practice, and going after what you wanted (to be helped).
It may sound weird but I didn’t ‘practice’ these skills (in part) because of my need to be perceived as always doing things ‘right’, and I watched myself not being very good at this, and it made me feel like a dope.
Now, I don’t care, so much, how I look. Now I want to love myself, however awkwardly I may look doing it.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 12:28pm
Matt says:
banana:
I’m not sure what state you are in. I have this vague recollection of New York. There was a case that jumped out at me this past year.
An appeals court affirmed a Family Court determination that an upstate woman be allowed to move to Florida with her 12-year-old daughter over the objections of the girl’s father, even though the appeals judges conceded the father demonstrated “unquestionable fitness” as a parent.
An Appellate Division, Third Department, panel ruled unanimously that Broome County Family Court Judge Peter P. Charnetsky properly exercised his discretion in the custody and visitation case, including weighing statements by Tami R. Winston’s daughter that she would prefer to move away from New York with her mother.
“Notwithstanding the existence of evidence demonstrating that the father is a good parent, we conclude that a preponderance of the evidence exists to support Family Court’s determination that relocation of the child with the mother was in the child’s best interest,” Justice Leslie E. Stein wrote for the panel in Winston v. Gates, 504284.
In 2007 Ms. Winston petitioned Family Court seeking to change the terms of the 2002 order of custody in which both she and Dennis L. Gates, (father who she never married), received joint legal custody of their daughter. The mother was the primary caregiver under the arrangement. Ms. Winston was subsequently diagnosed with a degenerative disc disease that forced her to stop working and to need help caring for her daughter.
Facing the exhaustion of her resources in New York, she asked Family Court for approval to move with her daughter to Florida, where her parents offered Ms. Winston free room and board and parenting help. She had only a boyfriend and a few relatives to depend on in Broome County.
Mr. Gates countered by seeking primary custody. He argued that he and his current wife could provide his daughter with a stable living arrangement in New York without the disruption of the move to Florida.
Judge Charnetsky ruled that the girl’s primary residence should continue to be with her mother and that the father should get what the Third Department called “extensive” visitation rights of six weeks during the summer, one week at Christmas and one week during spring break. The judge required Ms. Winston to provide transportation for two of those visits as well as a cell phone to allow her daughter to have frequent direct conversations with Mr. Gates.
According to the appeals panel, both parents were “active participants” in raising their child and both had developed a strong relationship with her. The court still found that the stronger bond had been developed between the mother and daughter.
As far as the father was concerned, the panel noted that he
had remarried and that his daughter would have had to share a room with another child had he been granted legal custody of the girl. Having as many as four other children to look after in New York, Mr. Gates would be left with “limited time” to spend exclusively with his daughter, the court decided.
ONe thing you have to be aware of banana, is that while relocation cases are the flavor of the month in domestic relations, you still have to present a compelling reason why it is in your child’s best interests for you to relocate. Among those reasons would be that you can only find a job in your new location. I note that even then, if the courts grant that, you would still be on the hook for at least 1/2 of your child’s transportation costs back and forth to visit his father, no matter what your income is compared to his.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 2:06pm
Matt says:
“…and the will to walk away alone and create my own closure.”
This is such a powerful and true statement. So often, I see people on this site craving “closure”. If they could just have one more conversation with S to find out “why”. If they could just sit down face-to- face with S. ETc, etc, etc.
The problem with that logic is that you are making closure dependent on S. And the problem with closure is that it is circular in that it works like this — you dump all your anger and crap all over S. S then is going to demand reciprocal closure and he dumps his anger and crap all over you. Now you’re mad and dump all over S again. Etc., etc., etc.
I think it is helpful for those seeking closure to view it in the same context as forgivenessd. Forgiveness isn’t about you forgiving the other person. Forgiveness is something you do for yourself so that you can move forward with your life.
So, the author has it right — she walked away to create her own closure. View it another way — when we preach NC on this site, that is your way to walk away — and give yourself closure.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 2:17pm
Clovis50 says:
Donna and all of you survivors: Bad day for me today.
My s/p who kept his my space girls even after we were married really has mind raped me, what a term, but that’s the damage he has done. Today I went to the lab to get lab work to make sure I dont have any STD’s….he continues to humiliate me even while gone…on pins and needles waiting on final divorce decree. It will be some closure, but not all closer…I hear zero tolerance loud and clear, I hear boundaries loud and clear…sad part it is NOW…and wasn’t THEN. So sad today, so hurt and embarrassed.
Somedays I am together and strong and unmoveble, but today the testing, the lab work just devastated me. Thank you Donna for reminding me of important things like you spoke about and about going on.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 4:03pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Dear Clovis50,
Good for you for taking care of yourself by going for testing, and for doing what you have done to get ‘here and now.’
best,
one step
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 4:08pm
Donna Andersen says:
Folks,
I’m glad you liked the article at the beginning of this post, but I can’t take credit for it. The article was submitted by a reader who wanted to remain anonymous.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 5:24pm
OxDrover says:
Der Clovis,
I’m so sorry about your humiliation and pain, but like “one step” so nicely put it, you are HERE NOW! (((HUGS))) AND MY PARYAER FOR YOU!!!
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 6:05pm
Clovis50 says:
Thank you everyone for being so kind in your remarks. It means so much to me
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 6:51pm
recovering says:
banana and others, your point about no closure with them because the N/S don’t want it — they want to keep us on the radar just “IN CASE.”
About 6 months into dating, the guy I dated for 1.5 yrs. on and off began to “touch base” periodically with two ex GF’s — or they with him — even though he said they’d had negative endings with. I guess when they see us wising up, not as enamored after a while and setting firmer boundaries/expectations, it’s like they rebel (like adolescents, not grown-ups who understand there are limits). The N/S then try to imply the women are coming on to them, attempting to create drama through triangulations. They want us to think they always have these options — even if their exes are in other relationships — even as they try to limit our choices/options. Double-standards and deceitful!
Really strange when you think about it — IT’S AS IF TIME STANDS STILL FOR THEM, as if other people don’t change and move on with their lives or have relationships with new people, or as if the N/S believe it’s so easy to just pick back up where they left off after being away from someone for months and years.
I rarely if ever talk with most of my long-gone exes, not because of bad feelings, but because there is no real point; why complicate things — especially if I’m in a budding new relationship. With the exes I do talk to more often (my son’s father and one guy who transitioned into being a very good male friend) — I don’t even think about sex with them or reconnecting simply because we/our lives are different and there usually isn’t much left to rekindle after having “been there, done that.”
THESE N/S PEOPLE TRULY ARE CASES OF ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 8:47pm
Matt says:
recovering:
My S-ex did the same thing. I now see that he got off keeping me in play with his exes. I call what they do with their exes “garaging.” The keep them in the garage until its in their best interests to take the ex out for a spin and drive you crazy.
I got rid of S over a year ago. Six months ago I started dating a great guy. Occasionally, one of us may reference an ex — but it’s in passing. At this stage of our lives, we’ve all got baggage. My only care is whether the baggage is organized in the baggage compartment. Anybody who pretends they don’t have a past has their own issues which I don’t want to deal with. A healthy perspective on your past, acknowledging it when necessary, but leaving it in the past, is the sign of a healthy individual.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 9:12pm
recovering says:
Matt, I like your point about them “garaging” exes. In hindsight, I see the gaminess of it all, because my thought is, if someone is still that prominent, why not just go back and give it another try. But no, the N/S wanted to keep the new relationship unbalanced — because that’s how they operate. And if we’re not careful, it can be easy to assume the exes are the problem, when really this approach shows symptoms/red flags on the part of the disordered person.
Like you said, we all have baggage. But immature people can try to drive you crazy with innuendo. It sure isn’t the best way to establish trust so new into a relationship by hinting about exes who are still flirting with them. Even when my exes flirted, I took responsibility for handling things so I wouldn’t send mixed messages to the new guy — my former N/S.
I once told my ex-N/S that I’m was willing to have old people from the past still in my life, but it would not be fair for me to burden him with nonsense. If I was uncertain, I would just say so, not make him think he couldn’t compete with what must have been my glorious past (yea right — exes are usually exes for a reason, the saying goes).
I once read a list of steps involved in internet “seduction” — and creating uncertainty advised as a way to help someone boost his value, if he can show that others also want him. To me, common sense would say that if I like someone, there are others who’ll like him too — so I don’t take people for granted, and don’t take well to someone taking me for granted either.
Like you said Matt, putting the past in perspective is a sign of a healthy individual.
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Thursday, 10 December 2009 @ 11:18pm
skylar says:
Recovering, you have very good common sense. thanks for posting your insights. The P’s ability to “pop up” in their old friends’ lives reminds me of the song “POP GOES THE WEASEL”! LOL!
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 12:04am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Matt,
another dupe of my spath’s is suing her for fraud. I have just started coresponding with her. She mentioned the possibility of a class action suit.
How many folks does it take to make a class action suit?
one step
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 12:21am
AbuDhabiEyes says:
Donna,
your article was just the closure/validation that I needed to find within myself. When I stopped trying to get an apology – or even an addmission of his lies…. the S no longer had any power over me. I kept trying to have a heart-heart and he kept lying. This only prolonged my pain and validated HIS need to feel important and powerful. Your method of making lists was my roadmap out of the crazy-making! Thanks so much! Cheers to all of us Survivors – we can’t change others but we CAN make ourselves even better than ever!
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 6:19am
OxDrover says:
AbuDhabiEyes,
You are so right! QUOTE: ” we can’t change others but we CAN make ourselves even better than ever! “
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 7:42am
banana says:
Matt,
First of all thanks Matt…my family lives 3 hours away…I have no support system here. I could live with my family, pay off my attorney fees with no rent to pay, AND make more money because teachers get paid more in that county.
The reason I ask is because S/P is using mileage as a bargaining chip…I will never get the 220 miles I need in the bargain. Only 60 miles in EXCHANGE for an additional night every other week FOR S/P.
SO I am considering settling for the 35 miles he is offering, knowing I have a secure job and won’t HAVE to move any time soon, and NOT letting him have the additional night.
In the future, when I suspect he will stop visiting so much and (he is already dropping our son in the care of others’) may be in arrears, I would like the HOPEFULL option to petition the court to move.
Cheers,
Banana
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 8:16am
banana says:
recovery,
Wow this topic of “garaging” past lovers is triggering me.
Just another reminder of all the red flags we ignored.
I was able to actually get the story from the Ex love whom my S/P slept with and even got pregnant just months before our wedding.
Red flags…pics of various women whom he would explain were just friends and repeated contact with the ex ie: exchanging belongs each one had of the other’s for a few months into our relationship, a gift from her of concert tickets (said she couldn’t go, but why were there two? I can’t remember what she said of that, but I suspect they were supposed to go together since concert tickets are usually purchased months is advance….they also played PS2 online together). Boink!!!! Wish OXy was there to say, “HELLO????? and wake me out of my stuppor with a CAST iron skillet.
There were others I am sure.
But closure for us is yes….STOP WONDERING, STOP ASKING THE QUESTIONS, and I think I need to start some lists.
START FOCUSING ON OURSLEVES.
PEACE AND JOY TO ALL AT LF in this holiday season.
-Banana
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 8:23am
sotired says:
Good Morning.
Wow… today is NC with “N”/”S” for six weeks. This has been a difficult year for me.
I so happy to have had a little peace this last week and the thoughts of him changing. I’m not angry but feeling compassion for another wounded soul himself. It won’t help me or him to be together so it has to be this way.
Don’t like it but for both it’s the best. I am trying to recover and do my own work. He doesn’t admit he has work to do so therefore there is no work being done on his part.
I know how difficult it is for me to stop and think about my problems and do the work so I know he has a long way to go if we were to ever be around each other again at all.
I would be so triggered if he called or I saw him. No contact has finally begun to take stress out of my life.
Again, I don’t like having to go through this. I literally threw up from the pain when I had enough. Can’t believe it almost but that’s how sick I had become in July.
Holidays are difficult. Hang in there anyone struggling today. It gets better.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 8:53am
OxDrover says:
Dear Sotired,
NC will give you the emotional space to start to recover–congratulations!!! When we break contact it sets us back to SQUARE ONE.
Don’t pity him, however, he is what he is, and pitying him, feeling sorry for him, will usually be counter productive to your healing and moving on. He IS WHAT HE IS, AND HE HAS A CHOICE—just like you do. But he doesn’t see a need to change, or want to change. NOTHING you could ever do would motivate him to want to change. Nothing anyone could do would motivate him to change. But he DOES have a choice. We all do.
Making healthy choices for yourself is a good thing, and the only thing any of us can do. Setting boundaries with others, and enforcing those boundaries will protect us.
It was so hard for me to set boundaries with people I had relationships with of any kind and I walked on egg shells around them to avoid hurting their feelings while they walked all over me with golf shoes with spikes—but no more.
Hang in there and stay strong on the path to healing and you will get there! Take care of YOU!!!
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 9:18am
banana says:
Sotired,
YES. Do hang in there. No Contact is SO important.
I too got cought up in thinking he was a torutred soul and was the product of his environment…heck, for many of us that was why we loved them, we wanted to help them, then we thought our love could change them; help them to be a better person.
They are SO caught up in their pathology that they CAN NOT change. HE is NOT aware of his illness.
Stay in NC for you. YOU are the only one YOU have CONTROL over. If it makes you feel any better…yes NC is also best for him, he WILL only get WORSE if you ENABLE him. SO STOP enabling his ILLNESS AND keep AWAY…FAR FAR AWAY.
Wishing you the best!
BAnana
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 9:48am
recovering says:
skylar, another “common sense” thought regarding your point about the P’s ability to “pop up” in their old loves/friends’ lives: What these disordered people do is try to make you feel you are worthless and have to jump through hoops and fill voids in them that no one can possibly do — or be for another person.
They do anything to keep the upper hand and make you feel devalued and unappreciated. They do not consider what is fair and reasonable, because they want to keep you suspended in uncertainty.
I’ve never told my full story here on Lovefraud. When I arrived at this site, I was struggling about limited contact/no contact because I felt obligated to allow the ex-N/S to be part of my life since I still owed him money he had loaned me for my start-up business (I love working from home, which means I have flexible time to do my ongoing healing coming here on Lovefraud to learn, and keep up with my work as well).
My ex is 44 and I’m 47. He had no kids and was an only child. I have a 13 y/o son. We had discussed marriage and possibly him working with me in my business. At the time we met, he was caring for his elderly dad at their home and did not have to work full-time himself.
But my ex N/S became more abusive (limited physically, but primarily emotionally) and I started attacking back when he tried to assault my self-esteem in different ways, and it became draining. I felt I was in the twilight zone at times because — despite being a thinking person — I didn’t ever really know what the “real issues” were as we began arguing a lot. I would be open and honest about what I wanted and how I felt about most things. There obviously were hidden agendas on his part, but he wouldn’t take ownership for anything.
I had been so appreciative of him loaning me money, but the price I paid was having a man who almost took over my life.
He once told me, “You can’t get away from me” and said if I left, no one would want to deal with me because I was so difficult — I guess because I had a sense of self when I met him and resisted his attempts at control, even though I had no idea how far he would go with me with “mind f**k until much later.
He confused me a lot — I had reasonable expectations, standards and values which he said he also shared, yet we often had “tension” and “uneasiness.” He said hurtful things out of the blue — from no where — even once told me he needed to find him another woman because my self-esteem was “too high.” WHAT?????
When I started setting clearer boundaries — tellling him I couldn’t see him as much because I had to focus on my work, me and my son more, even though I still wanted the relationship with him at the time — that’s when he upped the games, telling me his exes were available, reminiscing more about his past, making innuendos, etc. It was a way to de-stabilize my confidence, for him to get more attention — as if to say if you’re not there (for sex, attention,etc.), someone else will be.
Despite my flexibility with him, providing support and assistance and other action that demonstrated I was real and cared for him, he imposed the “world” onto me — made me feel “invisible” as if I were not an individual, suggested I was part of the collective world that he didn’t trust. He complained about people in the “system/” government — as if trying to make me responsible for all the bad things that had happened to him (I’m sure now he had a role in all of it). He created more drama — with various mind games, increasing contact with exes because he needed someone to “talk” to, and insinuating abandonment of our relationship.
He did so much “testing” of me to get me to prove I was a good person — to wear me down so he could gain full control over me.
I finally told him I didn’t give a damn if he couldn’t fully see and appreciate me, and I refused to hear another complaint unless he was planning to take action and come up with solutions. As I continued to feel I was not seen or heard and my boundaries were not respected, I started withdrawing even though I still felt love and hoped we could work things out.
By the end of the 1.5 year relationship, I had been bombarded with so much non-sense and ambient/emotional abuse, I knew it would be difficult to even try a friendship with him.
I so get why people on this site say total NC is necessary. As I continue No Contact, I have regained my bearings. I no longer feel guilty for not giving him access to my life just because I owe him money. Because of my integrity, I will pay him back. But I’ve already told him I plan to deduct some of the $25 K he loaned me since he took so much of my time with his neediness and in many ways, I provided “counseling” and lots of practical, day-to-day support for him and his dad that money cannot buy.
Based on odd things he later said and “confessed,” I now look back and think he loaned me the money as an “investment” in me — thinking he would get at least double his money back once my business took off, and probably never intended to have a legitimate relationship that could have led to marriage as I’d hoped.
I think he wanted me to “save” his life — as if he wanted to “absorb” me. He verbalized several times that he “owned” me.
I also realize he wanted me to do the major managing and mental work for our relationship while he could coast and “play” — no responsibility for issues, no sincere apologies for hurtful words and actions that he thought I should just let it all go.
He always wanted to accompany me when I had business and other errands to do, but rarely invited me to go on his routine errands except events when he needed my direct help.
He was moody and would punish me with silent treatment for not reading his mind — as if I should have known how he felt and taken care of something he didn’t make me aware of.
He could tell me he loved me one minute, then turn around and lie to me or attempt to destroy my sense of worth the next minute.
He would attend professional networking events with me and focus later on all that was negative about the situation, and what was wrong with the people who attended. He took pride in pointing out others’ flaw and shortcomings.
Rather than figure out what he needed to do to make his life more balanced with new hobbies or male and female friends (he had very few), he would engage in out-loud “criminal thinking” and ask me about potential scams to get a reaction from me, then when I said there was no way I would do something illegal for a man or anyone for that matter, he’d say he was kidding and had no intentions of doing some of the illegal things he’d previously suggested.
He seemed intelligent and responsive when I started discussions, but also seemed to change his disposition on important things including his “values” a lot.
Come to think of it, I see now that he had no real rich inner life. He simply could not appreciate small things, notice little progress or value beauty in everyday life. Nothing was ever “enough.” He had a negative orientation toward everything and nothing could ever be innocent. I began to question and suspect everything he ever said or did.
It all became too mind-boggling, too much/ too taxing. WHO THE HELL WAS THIS PERSON? TALK ABOUT CONFUSED…
Now, with his absence from my life, I am returning to a calmer and saner place. With distance, I can clearly see things for the non-sense so much of it was. I can now know not to take him seriously. He enjoys the game more than having a real life.
I still owe him money, but I know my intentions. I also know I am responsible for my own well-being.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 11:34am
skylar says:
recovering,
so much of what you wrote reminds me of my own X-Periences!
The difference between us is that you had some very real boundaries and expectations, which I did not because I was 17 when I met mine. I’m surprised that your xP would even target you, but it sounds like you have benefited very much from the X-Perience. In addition to starting your business, you have learned the fundamentals of the N/S/P’s – not bad for a year and a half investment. Pat yourself on the back.
I’ve come to the conclusion that there was and is no REAL X-P. He makes up a new personality from moment to moment as the need arises or if one facet doesn’t work he will shift that portion to the 180 degrees of what he was channelling a moment earlier. I’ve recently learned that he is actually mimicking one of his other “n-supply friends” for a portion of his personality.
But the negativety which you mention, THAT seems constant. It’s the part of them that they can’t hide, they really do hate everyone and everything. They have no good will towards anyone. They have an overwhelming feeling of being cheated and impoverished so they want everyone else to feel the same way. They want everyone to feel the envy that they feel and the shame that they feel. Because my xP projects (he accuses others of what he is actually thinking) I’ve come to realize that he is a sadist who gets very excited at the thought of pictures of people suffering (nazi concentration camp pictures). I know this because he told me that my P-sister and P-BIL would really enjoy such pictures.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 12:52pm
witsend says:
Skylar,
How ARE you…?
I think you really have a point there. Watching the progression from the ground up….I see the disorder maturing in a sense. Although there is a very immature quality to the behavior that manifest within this disorder….There is a definate pattern with the “projection” part of it. When I first found myself in this situation having his feelings/behavior/personality traits, projected back onto me….I wasn’t quite sure what was going on. I thought it manipulation….And although this CAN manipulate a situation as I see more and more of it happening it is a definate projection of themselves onto others.
It is something difficult to understand. And I am still coming to terms with this. What I have come to understand more recently is THIS REALLY IS the most honest form of communication you will ever recieve from a person with this disorder. Projection is how an S/P/N communicates to you because they can’t tell the truth in a regular conversation.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 2:31pm
recovering says:
skylar and witsend, your additional comments really help me to see the absolute insanity of people who try to make others feel crazy. The projections of the N/S/P, their distortions of reality (what we say and do, our values), and trying to view us as if we were them — all ways to invalidate us, and diminish the very best positive qualities we possess.
In their need to control, they’d be happy if we became depressed as a result of their worldview and depended on them as the only respite from the rest of the “big old bad world.”
Not a chance. I’ll take my version of reality — there is both good and bad in the world — albeit now much wiser in knowing there are people beyond help, whose personalities that are so disordered — and their issues so ingrained — that they won’t ever acknowledge what’s real.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 4:48pm
slimone says:
Hi Skylar and recovering,
Skylar: Just saw you on the board, and haven’t for a time and want to say hi, and glad you are still around.
Reading over the last few posts it struck me (once again!) how the projection stuff is baffling when we don’t know what is happening. All the huffing and puffing to make themselves look bigger so we will feel the lack and envy that they suffer from, and will not acknowledge. All the threats of abandonment, running hot and cold, so we will feel the fear and loneliness that they won’t. The constant manipulations to create stress reactions in us, so that we are more easily ‘handled’, and feel the devastating emptiness that they live in. The baiting and switching of subjects to make us angry, so we can get a taste of the rage they embody.
It goes on and on.
On deeper and deeper levels I understand how no single movement they make is anything more than the distortion they suffer from. Every move is a defense mechanism, protecting the malignant and angry ego. It is all a giant, horrible, temper-tantrum.
As I have looked back, and through hearing some ‘current events’ of the S-ex, I have begun to see how important it is for these creatures to move on. How much they need naive, nice, new, needy, ignorant people to engage with. Because anyone who has finally opened their eyes to The Disorder of psychopathology, can see every move exactly for what it is. Their sickness becomes SO blatant once we know HOW to see it. Once we see the pattern, experience the repeated betrayals, the false tears, the flattery that is followed by deception, the disarming charm applied only for personal gain.
I was watching something last night and one of the characters asked “Why does he DO that?”. And his friend answered “That’s like asking ‘why do birds sing?’, and the answer is because that is what birds DO”.
Psychopaths only do what they do. They don’t do anything else. It is an endless hamster wheel of lies and manipulations, because they are psychopaths.
I on the other hand, yipee!, have choices. Lots and lots of them, that I can make to live a peaceful, civil, loving, fortified, REAL life. Even more so now that I am not disabled by my personal attraction to chaos and destruction (which I most certainly was).
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 6:23pm
slimone says:
Oh, meant to include witsend in my greeting to recovering and Skylar. Oops.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 6:24pm
recovering says:
slimone — thank you for putting into well-summarized words what I experienced: “All the threats of abandonment, running hot and cold, so we will feel the fear and loneliness that they won’t. The constant manipulations to create stress reactions in us, so that we are more easily ‘handled’, and feel the devastating emptiness that they live in. The baiting and switching of subjects to make us angry…It goes on and on.”
I WAS HEARTBROKEN TO REALIZE I WAS SLEEPING WITH THE ENEMY, a MAN I ONCE HOPED TO MARRY. I KNOW NOW THE LOVE HE PROFESSED WAS NOT REAL, BUT MEANT FOR MANIPULATION JUST AS THE MONEY HE’D LOANED ME FOR BUSINESS.
AND THEY TRY TO MAKE US OUT TO BE “DEMANDING” OR “DIFFICULT” FOR CONFRONTING BULLS–T AS IT UNFOLDS, BLAMING US WHEN WE DO NOT NOT BUY INTO THEIR NON-SENSE.
Well said slimone, “I have begun to see how important it is for these creatures to move on. How much they need naive, nice, new, needy, ignorant people to engage with. Because anyone who has finally opened their eyes to The Disorder of psychopathology, can see every move exactly for what it is. Their sickness becomes SO blatant once we know HOW to see it. Once we see the pattern, experience the repeated betrayals, the false tears, the flattery that is followed by deception, the disarming charm applied only for personal gain.”
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 6:38pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Recovering,
I think we were dating the SAME MAN–mine tried to ‘buy me things” but got angry when I refused (I am absolutely paranoid about taking money or “gifts” from others because too many times it comes with a PRICE TAG that is not “reasonable interest”) My egg donor used to always try to give me money too, which I refused—because I knew it was a down payment on CONTROL and GUILT. LOL
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 8:10pm
recovering says:
Yes OxDrover, we can LOL.
When this many people have the same experience and there are the same patterns, there is something to it. I had hesitated for a long time in viewing my ex as a Sociopath, starting out with a belief that he was mainly NPD. But with time, it is clearer to me — I “know with humility” and such knowledge is freeing, even if tinged with sadness.
I took the day off from work today for the most part except for a few business errands (having one’s own business allows such flexibility, but I’m working the whole weekend) because I knew I was at a turning point mentally and emotionally in this journey, where I was letting go more about what was and accepting more what is.
I needed reinforcement with my ongoing No Contact and the determination to move forward and put this whole N/S experience in perspective and eventually behind me.
Lovefraud warriors — you have not failed me.
All of you who provided insights from your own experiences today added to my accumulating wisdom and sense of relief.
It has been my pleasure to spend much of the day at this site on and off — for healing time.
I’m signing off for the night, and send my regards to you all.
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 8:30pm
luv716 says:
I text the liar an told him that basically he’s a user con artist that he uses woman for money to forget he ever knew me and all he done to me is gonna come back on him! I know it really dont matter to him but to me this is my closure, He have a lot of things from when me an my kids was living at his place that he wont return he keep ignoring me asking for my things back so i just got fed up a told him fuck you! to keep the things because he is petty. NC is my goal I don’t never wanna talk to that sob again. I got used and played
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Friday, 11 December 2009 @ 10:46pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Luv,
Dear, that was one of the reasons to keep your things is to keep you tied to him. So he would still have control over something you wanted.
By giving up the expectation that you would EVER get those things back, you have FREED yourself. NOW he has NO HOLD on you.
NOW YOU ARE FREE, TO BE AND STAY NC!!!!!! TOWANDA!!!! GOOD FOR YOU! NC FOREVER! TAKE BACK YOUR CONTROL!!! (((HUGS)))) AND GOD BLESS YOU!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 10:34am
luv716 says:
Thank you OxDrover, I need God to Bless me right now!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 12:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Luv,
God helps those who help themselves and act wisely, so this is the time for you to be STRONG in NC….St. Paul advised the early Christians that if someone persisted in doing bad things and would not listen to “treat them like a heathen, don’t even eat with them.” That is NC if I ever heard it, and so stick with your NC and you can start to really heal. When we giv eup on the HOPE that they will be reasonable, and accept that they are EVIL and will not change, then we are FREE of them. We may still grieve for a while, but we are FREE of that unrealistic “hope” which keeps us tied to them. (((HUgs)) and my prayers for you. Lvoe Oxy
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 2:38pm
Cat says:
recovering,
There was a NAME for this? Hallelujah! That’s how I felt when I could finally connect the dots. I was SO ready to connect those dots, too! The name led me to the understanding and that led me to freedom. BUT before that, there were many years in which I was hesitant to put a name to it. I just kept explaining away the ugly nasty behaviors he exhibited.
OX and Luv, I had what I could perhaps call “pre-healing” in that I started changing my thinking and behaviors before he even left. Once my eyes were open, I couldn’t move fast enough to be free. I now know there is MUCH more to be done, but I remember the relief I felt when I realized I didn’t HAVE to put up with his crap, that I had choices and I started exercising that option. So, I guess, Ox, you could saying I started “treating him like a heathen”. I’m completely for NC and while we have a child, I have a feeling he will just vanish, albeit with all his “fanfare”.
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 4:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Cat,
I knew, I think, from childhood that “something was wrong” but didn’t even have a concept that it was even POSSIBLE to disconnect from crap if the crap was from “mommie dearest” I didn’t even realize that I COULD “treat her like a heathen” I thought all TRUTH came through her…and I couldn’t even imagine NC with my offspring. What good would life be if I wasn’t in contact and close to my offspring, no matter what?
When my egg donor actually SAID out loud, the words of the “family motto” (though up until then unspoken) “Let’s just pretend none of this happened.” It was like a LIGHT GOING ON IN MY HEAD—HELLLLLLLLL–OOOOOO!
I realized I had played “let’s pretend” all my life, and it was inly a game of let’s “pretend that what we did to Oxy isn’t important, because she isn’t important”—-and I was TIRED of that game, I never won, I was always injured, but pretended II was “okay.”
It was only when I realized FINALLY that I didn’t have to “live up to” (or down to) my egg donor’s opinon of me, I realized that MY OPINION COUNTED—to me if no one else!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 4:52pm
Cat says:
Dear Ox,
Yes, yes, and yes! My ex husband’s family had the idea that if you didn’t talk about it, it never happened! It was the famous “white elephant standing in the middle of the living room” and it used to drive me mad! And this is PRE EX Spath. I’m realizing now it’s been the patter the better part of my life that this stuff has gone on.
My ex Spath was a pro at this. He could be insane all night long, throwing fits, etx and then get up the next morning and cook breakfast like nothing happened. It HAD happened! I was tired too, tired of acting like the awful things he did didn’t matter, didn’t hurt.
Today, I am NOT pretending and there is no more rewriting history. The only one living in my body is me, the only one thinking my thoughts is me and the only one who can criticize me is ME.
Hugs!!!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 5:04pm
OxDrover says:
I first noticed the “it didn’t happen” part and consciously THOUGHT about it when I worked with adolescents (especially female) borderlines, who one minute would be trying to claw your eyes out and seriously wound you (in an in-patient setting) and 5 minutes later, would be trying to HUG you and tell you how much they loved you. NEVER acknowledging that they had actually tried to claw your eyes out and if you had not had TWO BIG BURLY mental health techs to drag them kicking and screaming and cursing off of you, they WOULD have injured you.
Working with these kids, especially the girls, who actually were as violent or more so than the males, opened my eyes to the “let’s pretend it didn’t happen” game, and to an extent made me realize what my egg donor had been doing my entire life!
I had there-to-fore thought this pretending game, this “keeping a stiff uppper lip” and “not airing the dirty laundry” was actually a GOOD thing.
It was only when it almost turned fatal that I finally had the back bone, moral courage and good sense to ESCAPE from this dysfunction and start to see and act on REASON.
While I see others from time to time that are as bamboozled or in denial as I was, and I realize what is going on with them, until they are READY TO ACCEPT it, no amount of “preaching” will “convert” them. No amount of therapy, or anything else got through to me until IT GOT THROUGH TO ME. Until I was READY to accept what I was SEEING.
As Jesus said, “they have ears but hear not, they have eyes but see not.” I have been both blind and deaf, and I realize my egg donor is both blind and deaf, but there comes a point when I have to give up any hope that she will ever “see the light or hear it thunder” and I can’t waste any more of my time trying to help her see. I had to accept that she is just as unchangeable as my P son. Just as toxic, as she is a “psychopath by proxy” helping him to hurt me.
The truth WILL set you free, but you have to be prepared for it to pith you off. It did pith me off, but recognizing it SET ME FREE. But we all do it in OUR OWN time, and for some it may be that the “time” is NEVER because they can’t/won’t face the pain that goes with accepting an unpleasant truth.
Sometimes (and I am aware of a case right now) a person will be so sure that THEY cannot be “fooled” by a psychopath that they will deny that someone’s behavior is psychopathic because to admit that THEY were “human” and NOT infalliable, would mean the loss of their own self esteem. They will take all kinds of measures to keep on “believing” that the disordered person is NOT a psychopapth, even in the face of GOOD EVIDENCE of that person’s behavior, that it is almost funny, if it weren’t so “sad.”
Sort of like Witsend’s MIL finding 50 vodka bottles in her son’s room, but denying he had a DRINKING problem. DUH!?
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 6:05pm
nic says:
So I haven’t talked with my exS since a few days before Thanksgiving when he brought me my new camera and you know what? It feels GOOD! I haven’t gone this long without talking to him. He has not called to see our daughter and that is fine with me.
Our daughter had a Christmas show this morning and I almost started not to go because I was going to be by myself but I said to hell with it. She did such a great job and I didn’t care that she didn’t have her father there.
I know he is going to try and call right before Christmas to bring her presents but I won’t be answering the phone. She needs a father not presents. My goal is to not talk to him for the rest of 2009! This is his birthday weekend so I am sure he will be out getting drunk and partying. I hate him so!!!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 7:38pm
recovering says:
OxDrover, I really cannot fathom the resolve it must take for you to disconnect totally from your mother and a son, although you did indicate your life had been endangered at some point. I was wondering, when you have some time, why total no contact is also recommended with family members who are sociopaths? I can understand NC with intimates/significant others since love relationships like these can bring one down big time especially if living with such a person, since involvement is often body, mind and soul. But I have not had to actively do a permanent detach from any of my toxic relatives — just have very limited contact with them. For me things have worked out by just keeping the very toxic/personality disordered relatives at arm’s length.
Given that you’ve gained balanced perspective with how your relatives behave, do you see being able to reconnect with them but on different terms in the future.
Part of the reason I ask this is because one could possibly feel very guilty to totally stop communication with a child or parent, especially if someone dies and it becomes too late to connect again.
While growing up, I lost several relatives to death at a young age and this history made me feel a need to at least be at peace — even if from a distance — with those still alive even if we couldn’t be part of each others’ lives in a close way. Could be a guilt-induced thing, but by reaching out to some extent — and I agree with your point that some people cannot be reached — it made me feel at peace knowing I did all I could with the relatives that I had difficulty with due to their unwillingness to be respectful.
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 8:26pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Recovering,
I felt the same way you were talking about, that it was not really “possible” to completely disconnect from a blood relative. “Family”–or at least the concept of it–was drummed into me as THE most important and UNending thing in life.
However, Yes, my son did try to have me killed (for an inheritemce–he is in prison for another murder, and had a freind of his try to kill me) my mother enables my son who is in prison with monetary payments and with provision for him after her death so that he will have money. With money he has more leaway to try again to have me killed.
My other sons and I will be at nis next parole hearing in a littl eover a year, begging the parole board to NOT let him out. He is a psychopath, has proven already that he is capable of violence and murder.
I am my mother’s only child, but in my family male children are valued above female children. My mother is an enabler who keeps up toxic hope that her grandson will “reform” she is perfectly willing to lose her other grandsons and her only child, in order to enable this proven murderer and to “support” him. She devalued and discarded me when she thought she had one of my other sons “on her side” along with the P-now-X DIL who with her BF, tried to kill her husband.
We are a “respected” family in this community—but we are the poster family for disorder and dysfunction. It has gone on for generations and I am determined to STOP it HERE. My other two sons, besides the one in prison, are with me 100% and are also NC with my egg donor (as far as I am concerned she did not EARN the title mother) Unfortunately, we live on the same farm, but we stay 100% NC with her and it is only SINCE I saw that in order to heal I had to keep away from her. What is the use of a FAKE relationship with someone who cares so little that they would support those that tried to kill you? Whatever her “reasons” or “excuses” she REFUSEs to acknowledge what she has done, or how she has treated me and her spoken intentions are “let’s just PRETEND NONE OF THIS HAPPENED AND START OVER” NOPE, not me, not again. I’ve done that all my life. BLOOD is NOT “thicker than water” and I am only going to associate with those that actually LOVE ME, respect me and care about my welfare. Obviously she doesn’t. he doesn’t. If I sound bitter I’m not really bitter any more, though I admit I was very bitter, very angry, but I don’t want to live that way either.
Being bitter and angry all the time is not a good way to live. but recognizing that someone does not have your best interest at heart and will not treat you with respect, that their only concern is can they control you—recognizing that, accepting WHAT IS, not what you WISH WAS, is the only healthy way to look at the situation.
Living in denial of the truth, puts us at risk of all knids of things.
Accepting even an un-happy truth at least frees you from malignant HOPE that is not realistic.
As far as her death sending me into regret? Nope. I won’t even attend her funeral. A funeral is for the living, not the dead, and as far as I am concerned, she died, and my son died, when I realized they are toxic and dangerous. I had a “memorial” service for my love for them and the false hope I had for a relationship with them. It was a painful “memorial” and a painful time of grief, but once the grief is worked through, there is PEACE and NO more injury, no more pain, no more sorrow. I can leave them to God to deal with.
KNOWING the truth, ACCEPTING the truth, once you have accomplished that, leaves you FREE of pain, and gives you room for PEACE, HAPPINESS AND JOY and time to spend with those that do love you. That respect and appreciate you.
Believe me it is wonderful now that I no longer “miss” the “love” and so on that I THOUGHT I had, but just with with an S. O. it was all fake, and why would I want contact with my P-X-BF? Same with blood relatives. And NO REGRET! No looking back. Just PEACE.
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 8:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Nic,
I posted to you a minute ago but lost it in cyberspace. GOOD for you GF! Every day of NC is a day of peace and joy!
I am sure you will be so busy you won’t have time to answer the phone, til say, June 23, 2025! LOL
TOWANDA!!! and enjoy that little girl! Love oxy
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 8:52pm
recovering says:
OxDrover — I get where you are coming from. Thanks for sharing this. I congratulate you on being so willing to delve into areas that are so difficult to deal with, yet finding your way, doing your best and moving forward with life.
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 10:50pm
nic says:
LOL Ox…June 2025. NC is the best!
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 11:07pm
Matt says:
Actually, OxDrover, I was going to recommend that nic not pick up the phone until June 31, 2025. Or maybe February 31, 2025 for that matter.
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Saturday, 12 December 2009 @ 11:12pm
nic says:
Matt…I think I like the Feb. 31st date better! I needed that laugh tonight.
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Sunday, 13 December 2009 @ 12:10am
OxDrover says:
Dear Recovering,
I think too many people put up with BAD and ABUSIVE behavior from “relatives” because they think they have NO CHOICE, I know I did, I thought I had no choice, but there IS A CHOICE, there is ALWAYS a choice. It may not be a painless one, but there IS A CHOICE.
I just had to decide which choice was the best choice—in this case survival–but I also found that on one side of the coin was pain and grief, and NO END, and on the other side was pain and grief THAT WOULD END EVENTUALLY. I chose to end the pain.
In a way I think it is like standing in a room surrounded by fire and the only way out is THROUGH the fire, or the other choice is to be CONSUMED by the fire. “pays yer money, and takes yer chances”
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Sunday, 13 December 2009 @ 9:43am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Donna, thanks for posting this. It is a wonderful article. It is so good to see one of us come through it all with such gifts of wisdom. Sometimes the hardest lessons bring the richest rewards.
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Monday, 14 December 2009 @ 10:36pm
soundscape77 says:
This is a wonderful article, both about setting “no tolerance” boundaries and finding freedom, security and recovery from experiences with a sociopath/psychopath.
However, perhaps we could use a different term than “mind rape”? While I understand that gaslighting and abuse can cause trauma, ongoing pain, breakdown of will, and betrayal, it feels like too often people talk about “feeling raped” when they have been used.
As a sexual abuse survivor (at the hands of my S/P), I’m sensitive to wide use of the term. There is a certain level of breakage (both psychological and physical) that comes from literally having no will, having someone invade and abuse your body, and physically assault you into submission with sex as a weapon. Until I found myself coming to terms with my experience, I used the term that way, as well. Now, having gone through multiple rapes, I find myself more guarded about the colloquial use of the term. I had no idea how deeply and broadly sexual assault affects you (something I still don’t have words for) until I experienced it firsthand. It took me a very long time to admit what happened to me was rape and to own that term.
Understanding no offense is meant, perhaps we could be sensitive to other sexual assault survivors on the forum by avoiding vaguer or broader use of the word “rape”? When we use it so broadly, it can water down the naming of it for those who have struggled hard through the experience.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 6:57am
duped says:
The title says it all!!!!
I’ve had to do a considerable amount of boundary work, since the explosion between me and my ex S. I’m almost grateful for all he put me through, since the outcome has been to develop these lacking skills.
When we have parents that exploit us with narcissistic or sociopathic behaviors, the natural consequence is for boundaries to be weak if not completely absent. I didn’t realize how much my need to connect with others and feel worth made me a readily permeable membrane; accepting every particle of toxic substance.
Boundaries, while difficult to assert at first, get easier, and more liberating, every day. With them comes new radar to warn when something is in violation of a healthy boundary.
Unfortunately, with them comes the awareness that many people violate others for their own gain, knowingly and otherwise! Still, better aware than a victim…again and again and again!
Thanks for the eloquent post! Namaste
Duped
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 7:39am
Cat says:
Hi everyone!
I haven’t been on here too much the last few days. I’ve spent a lot of time reading. The following statement, Ox, really hit home with me.
I think too many people put up with BAD and ABUSIVE behavior from “relatives” because they think they have NO CHOICE, I know I did, I thought I had no choice, but there IS A CHOICE, there is ALWAYS a choice. It may not be a painless one, but there IS A CHOICE.
I, as you well know, put up with a lot of abusive behavior from family members, thinking that was “normal”. It’s not and blood ties don’t mean a thing. I am choosing NOT to be around family right now as my ex P. goes to court for a violation of probation and somehow in their eyes this is my fault as well. DUH?!?!
You are right, as you’ve said in other posts. People do not SEE until they truly open their eyes and they do not HEAR until they uncover their ears and when they do that is when they are ready. I have quit trying to get others to see what I see. I just know that when I make the choice to NOT listen to those I consider toxic, I’m in a much better place.
It DOES hurt when we first disconnect from family members, but in the end, I’m finding that I have far less stress now than I did before. It’s all about CHOICES and I am making some today that I wouldn’t even have considered before.
Like others, I cannot fathom what you have been through, but your sharing, your courage and strength, how far you’ve come in your healing gives me an important message; no matter what, no matter how, life will get better and better if we are true to ourselves and what is best for each of us on a deep personal level.
“Freedom don’t come free”, as the song says, but the price is more than worth it!
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 9:35am
OxDrover says:
Dear Cat,
You are right, “freedom” doesn’t come FREE even when we are freeing ourselves from TOXIC people.
On another blog I was telling about what my egg donor was doing and how she had devalued me, discarded me (this was when she still had the psychopaths bowing and scrapeing to her and I had tried to set boundaries to take care of myself because I was overwhelmed with all the things I needed to do for my business interested that I had neglected and was losing money daily as a result. When I set the boundary that I wouldn’t just drop whatever I was doing even if the “house was on fire” and take her when and where she wanted to go.
She said “Well! what if I WANT TO GO THEN?” and I responded “Well hire someone to drive you if your errand is not an emergecy but you dont’ want to wait.” I wish you could ahve seen the FIRE that came out of her eyes, and she was fried.
Then when I found out about her “live in caregiver’s criminal record” (pedophilia and robbery) and tried to tell her, she would no longer listen to me.
That was when I left the farm and went into hiding. Still lthinking that it wasn’t “forever” NC—still couldn’t imagine that she would ever or could ever be OUT of my life TOTALLY, but she is and I am so glad. She doesn’t make calls here and rarely I have to e mail her about farm business, don’t send her birthday or christmas cards or presents, and just consider her as if she doesn’t exist.
Someone asked me the other day about how will I feel if she died and we didn’t have a chance to “make up”—just like I do now, because there is NO chance now that we can make up and have contact again. Whether she is a P or not, I still don’t know, but I DO KNOW she is TOXIC to me, she is a liar (though she claims to be so HOLY, she is unforgiving and holds grudges for DECADEs, her anger turns to wrath, and she seeks retrobution on anyone who crosses her)—-in fact, now that I think about it,. she actually went NC with her own MIL (who was a grouchy old woman) and the last ten years of the weman’s life never visited her once or invited her to her house. LOL I had not thought about that in years. LOL Never spoke to the woman on the phone even, or sent a birthday card or a Christmas card. Just acted as if she didn’t exist.
Well, gotta get off here and get into the car and make my trip to town! See you guys later.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 10:03am
robxsykobabe says:
Hi all:
I would like to share portions of my story in an attempt at continuing with the closure Ive started as this seems to be never ending.
I met my sociopathic ex boyfriend on a blind date. The first night we met, I remember saying outloud to him “there has to be something up with you” because he was SOOOOOOOO schmoozy. I felt a hesitation, to say the least, although after an elaborate explanation over ‘who he is’, it subsided and I became intrigued with such a ‘deep and caring’ person. How lucky was I!
Well, the relationship went very well for about the first year and a half although not without PLENTY of red flags I ignored in an attempt to ‘give the benefit of the doubt” (he told me he had another child 4 months into our relationship, who hes never seen and blamed it on his childs mother).
We continued our relationship with minor difficulties until February of 2007. We had gotten into an arguement (over what I dont know) which led us to not speak for a week. Well, during this week of no communication, he had ‘coincidentally’ went to the gym with his ex (the one he could never FULLY let go of). His excuse was typical…we werent talking, she emailed him out of the blue and they saw each other, he realized he wanted nothign to do with her and wants to be with me. This was heartbreaking to me, although, I didnt want to end the relationship and we ‘worked it out’.
Again, things ran smoothy until August of 2008 when we got pulled over in WI while on my family vacation. We were speeding and after the cop took the information, my ex became VERY nervous asking why the cop was taking so long. I reassured him that we were out of town and that may have been the reason. It wasnt. There was a warrant for my boyfriends arrest in Missouri. I defended my boyfriend adamently, telling the cop it was a mistake, hes never been to MO, yada yada yada. My boyfriend gets arrested anyway (remember, we are on my FAMILY vacation) and at the police station I find out he forged checks and got a DUI 9 years ago while on a drug/partying excursion with an old girlfriend.
I called my ma to tell her what was going on, and we bailed him out (remember, he had been quite the prince charming in all our eyes). He was given emotional support by all my family and sucked every ounce of it up, knowing he was playing a sneaky, ignorant game with us all.
Ok…so that mess began to get ‘delt’ with and things were on their way to being good for him. In March of 2009, he casually asks me if Id be interested in co-signing a motorcycle for him (did I mention hes 35? oh, ok). Well, I casually declined the question. This was fine with him because he had an alterior motive already in place. He told me that if I wasnt interested in co-signing, then maybe Id be interested in BUYING IT FOR HIM and HED MAKE PAYMENTS TO ME OVER SIX MONTHS and Id make out on the deal cause, well, if we broke up I could sell the bike for MORE than its worth! What a god damn jack ass! Needless to say, I declined that offer as well.
This is where I REALLY messed up (said with sarcasim, people)! He decided I had ‘devistated him’ because ‘it would be nothing for me to buy this for him’ after ‘all hes done for me and the sacrifices hes made for me’. I apologized and stood by my word…I said NO. He decided he didnt want to see me that weekend then…so we didnt. Interestingly, though, while on his ‘way to the movies with my dad’, he got pulled over-AGAIN. His story is that he was just sitting at a stop light minding his own business and the cop came over 3 lanes to randomly pull him over. In any case, he got arrested for driving on a revoked license (remember beign pulled over in WI? They had apparently revoked his license…ahhhhhhh) and got his car taken that night and went to jail.
For the next 3 months, I drove to pick he and his son up on weekends, brought them back to my house, drove all weekend long doing ‘errands’ or anything else and then drove them back home. He didnt understand why this was getting irritating to me stating ‘we are in a relationship and these are things you do for those you love’. Needless to say, I complained enough and told him ‘no’ enough times and he broke up with me…again stating ‘he would do anything for me and wasnt gonna be in a relationship with someone who wasnt willing to put forth any effort”.
Ahhhhh…this is just the beginning of the story! There was a whole sexual intimidation side to him as well that has always confused me. He could NEVER seem to get enough and if EVER told ‘no’, I had to deal with quite the wrath. I have never dated anyone who I felt looked at me as the sole object of their sexual gratification. He would use the old silent treatment on me for days when told ‘no’ and didnt understand how he looked at me…like when he would walk through my front door, as if he’d been planning our sexual encounter for the past 3 hours. It was horrible!
Thanks for listening and Id LOVE feedback…cause Ive got PLENTY more to tell.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 11:33am
metachosis says:
After reading this letter, I wonderered whether or not we dated teh same person. I later found out that he wasnt honest about his name!
I found this validating and helpful, as I am still struggling to put up boundaries. I find it even more challenging to try to set boundaries with family members. I have been trying to sort out the difference between real guilt and false guilt.
Thanks for sharing!
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 1:02pm
ErinBrock says:
Robxsykobabe:
Welcome and thanks for sharing your all too familiar story!
I read these posts thinking at some point I will come across the ex’s ‘next’ on here…..
Your description of the schmoozy was like…..OMG…..this woman has been with the S! Here she is!
All of our S’s resonate the same shit, as if they are paving the way for others to follow!
The lies, the cons, the suck in of families and love……
It’s all so pathetic.
Normal healthy persons give of themselves for love and affection, companionship and to ‘build lives together’……Cluster B’s take, take, take and NOTHING they say is truth…..and upon our ‘waking up’ and smelling the ‘duck fat’….burning in our homes……its’ shocking we have come across someone so callous.
Youv’e come to the right place, you’ll learn about how they keep us ‘off balance’ in order to get what they want…..keep us in a state of confusion, scratching our heads….
and you’ll learn so much more from the articles and posts, reading about others journies and other life changing information on dealing with S’s……and you won’t feel alone!
Again, welcome…….and take care of YOU!!!
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 1:33pm
ErinBrock says:
Metachosis:
Boundaries are imperative! Glad your exploring where to set yours!
I’m interested in your query on ‘real guilt vs ‘false guilt’.
Would false guilt be a projected guilt onto us?
I think ANY guilt is non productive and we should live with NO REGRETS!
I wrestle with the family boundaries too……it’s all very hard when it’s ‘blood’.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 1:36pm
Lillian says:
Hello All: Great post as has been said many times already. Most significant to me was the statement: “Things he took from me.” Things I still feel he is taking from me. As my life slip slides away. Cant pay the mortgage on “our”house any longer, nor the property taxes, my own income taxes, and now my credit card bills. My life that I built so carefully with very hard work and little help from others is crumbling before my eyes. It’s been two years and he is still taking from me. I want it to end. Janis Joplin sang once that “…freeom’s just another word for nothin’ left to lose. And, nothin ain’t worth nothin’ but it’s free.” I am waiting here to be free. I am waiting here for more. There is nothing else to wait for at this point.
BTW those who recall I’m in a law suit – my lawyer dropped me because I can’t replenish the retainer. I’ve spent over $10K on his fees and nothing has happened yet. He fileda cross complaint law suit that will never see a trial and we had a mediation that didn’t render a recommendation. That is about it. If I could replenish the retainer I would have paid the property taxes. I have borrowed from my parents and have no where left to turn.
When will this merry go round stop???
Sorry to vent. It’s so hard right now I don’t know what to do.
Lot’s of love to you all here! Lil
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 2:19pm
robxsykobabe says:
continuation…
As Ive sat here today Ive reminisced about the last 3.5 years and have come up with MANY, MANY, MANY more instances that should have been ‘dealt’ with differently…Id like to share…
*He packed his things from my house on 4 different occasions after being confronted about poor/disrespectful behavior. It became his trademark move…
*His sense of entitlement was crazy! He would walk into the gym that I worked at, walk right past the front desk and wouldnt pay. He would tell me “its not MY fault they dont charge me”.
*He tried splitting my family during our family reunion by tellign me ‘boy you should have heard some of the things your dad and brother were saying about you last night’. I confronted my family and it was actually the OTHER way around….HE was saying things about me to THEM!
*He asked to borrow my BRAND NEW car since his drive to work was much longer than mine..I, in return, would be allowed to drive his rusted out old truck.
*Tantrums, tantrums, tantrums…need I say more?
*He would make this look…a look that signified TOTAL disgust in me if, say, I had on an outfit HE didnt think I should wear…and claim he ‘didnt even know’ he was making the face.
*I always felt like he was ‘riding my tailwind’ and by being with me, he looked much better….I was right
*There was a highly irritating parasidic component to him. He stopped being my ‘guest’ at some point and at that point, particularly when his child was at my house. For example: When watching t.v, his child would sit on my couch, he on my loveseat, and me? ON THE FLOOR! After talking to him about this his response to me was ‘well, where are we supposed to sit then?”…
And the list goes on and on and on…and I will share more later. Writing these things down is sometimes difficult as it forces me to acknowledge all the wrongness that went on…and it makes me sad and then VEEEERRRRRY ANGRY!
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 3:42pm
robxsykobabe says:
continuation…
*He had NO friends. The only time he claimed to have ‘friends’ was when we were arguing and he was ‘going out’ with them. Otherwise, in 3.5 years, I met TWO people he called friends…and they were both co-workers.
*He went to prison for two years. He repeatedly asked that I didnt speak with his mother about it because she didnt know ‘the real’ reason he went away. His story to me made him out to be quite the PRINCE who was trying to ’save’ his drug addicted brother from a drug dealer. He said his mom wouldnt have been able to ‘handle’ that truth, so they never told her. (SEE, IM GETTING ANGRY NOW….OOOOHHHHHHHH)
*He owed 20,000 dollars in back pay child support, supposedly from the time he was away. I didnt find out about this until about 6 months before we broke up.
*He caused SO MUCH GRIEF in peoples lives, his nick name in the area he grew up in was ‘maggott’. I found this out after meeting one of his ‘old friends’ at a party 65 miles away from where they grew up! He never told me that himself.
*He began dating his classroom assistant at the age of 17. She was 22. For this, he faced expulsion…but chose to drop out instead. He ‘ran away’ for 3 months, having NO contact with his family. He was living with strippers he met while on run in Las Vegas…
And the list goes on and on and on…thanks for listening!
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 3:54pm
jofary says:
Lil: Misery loves company so can I join you?
I’m a little further into the journey to financial Hell than you – it was three years before I was able to peel off the parasite I had riding on me like I was his own personal Bank. I, too, went from excellent credit with a house to 100K in debt. Now my ex-S is the one with the excellent credit and a house, thanks to draining me financially for those three years with child care and child support and not paying our mortgage or any of his share of family debts, which enabled him to save up a bunch for his own needs. He didn’t even have a real job when I first met him, and certainly no assets, no credit, no driver’s licence, nothing. He was charming, glib, and had a hard luck story a mile long. He duped me and then later he duped the court. Need I say more?
It has been a difficult pill to swallow, knowing I won’t even be able to pay off all that debt by the time I’m seventy, never mind build a nest egg. Amazing and disheartening. All that hard work and dedication for naught. I sincerely hope it doesn’t go as badly for you as it did for me.
But the main thing to keep in mind when it seems like it’s never going to end is that the merry-go-round DOES stop eventually. Good or bad, it WILL stop. That was a day I relished, knowing he couldn’t continue to bleed me dry financially anymore. I had to wait for three long years (longer than we actually married) but it was finally OVER. My finances suck, sure, but at least I got my life back and learned a few important lessons along the way (like – DON’T GET MARRIED EVER AGAIN, LOL!).
Hang in there.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 4:35pm
42skully says:
HOT then Cold
Hi and happy holidays to all here at lovefraud.
I checked through most comments and a few hit me..the one was a S starts off all hot and then suddenly cools down..yeah Lezlie did that for the first three weeks she was calling me
an we talked while she ran her route for a food delivery.
Then she started to ignore me..I just feel stupid for being so happy about someone who was so bad for me.
She would say certain things to make me feel and think like we were going to be together longer then when it ended. She ended it see that was another post here how they have to keep moving..I guess I should feel lucky it was only 3 1/2 months. I realize she was ending a relationship when she started up with me..did the same thing texted the gal ..
She made the mistake of telling me that the girl said she led her on..lalalala and I thought to myself..hmmm? But thought
I could believe Lezlie..LOL..WRONG..she uses everyone..
I even heard the red flag of “I knew after 7 years of marriage I did not love my husband”..DING DING..that was her conservative version her as a Socio it was really more like after 7 months of being married and pregnant..I knew Idid not love my husband so she played him for 25 years OMG!!!
And I thought to myself wow I wonder would she do the same thing to me YES she did in a way shorter time..
A fool to think I would be different..she would actually love me.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 5:12pm
icanseeclearlynow says:
Thanks for sharing this blog. It’s such a positive and empowering article and something that I really needed to read after having some pretty bad down days lately. I’m still very fresh out of my relationship with what I’ve now come to realize was a full blown Narcissist. Part of my healing process has been and still continues to be (for now) really understanding and coming to terms with what I was dealing with.
Reading about all of the behaviors that are consistent and others’ stories is extremely validating, especially after the isolation and crazy-making. I know that I need to move on from that at some point and that’s going to be a gradual thing.
Your suggestions in this article are so helpful in that I know this is my next step. I’ve been taking baby steps with this already in that I am slowly taking back what’s mine and that is my own self worth. I know instinctively that this is so important for my recovery and moving on and learning from this horrendous experience. I have to start putting my energy back into myself, which I stopped doing.
This is one of the reasons why I am not going to go into specifics of what my exN did. Why give him any more of my time? Also, I have learned to be wise with giving out information. Publicly or otherwise.
I love your “Creating Boundaries” list. OH my!!! This has been such an awakening for me. The boundaries I let this N cross makes me so sad. Time after time after time I made excuses for him. I felt in my heart and gut, that I was being hurt, but I denied it. I kept giving in..feeling sorry for him. Swallowing his convoluted self-serving lies. And I KNEW he was lying a lot of the time and called him on it and STILL always fell for his bullshit rationalizations. WHY??? NO MORE. NEVER AGAIN. That’s my lesson. Don’t talk the talk if you can’t walk the walk, I say from now on.
The same goes for me. You know, I always fooled myself that I had those boundaries because I am honest and I have integrity. I value those extremely highly. The same goes for fidelity/loyalty and respect. BUT, if I’m accepting a LACK of those, from someone else…I don’t really have those then do I? That is a very sobering realization for me.
Where’s my integrity and self-respect if I keep taking someone back who’s a constant liar? It’s gone. I need to start saying NO and sticking to it. If something is unacceptable, it’s unacceptable…NO EXCUSES. END OF STORY.
I really see now how I gave the N carte blanche to keep up the abuse.
I also see how I don’t set boundaries and limits and am unassertive with other’s in my life and that has been an eye opening lesson as well. So, if I want to look at the hell I went through in a positive light, I can say that it gave me the gift of finally realizing that unless I change, I’m going to keep being a target for users and abusers.
I liked your “therapeutic list” as well. I started doing some of that last night myself. I hadn’t been able to do that up until now, because it just brought up too many painful memories. I didn’t think I could bear to see it written on a page and go through the feelings it brings up. But, it was therapeutic. It helped in that it verified for me, that all ‘crazy stuff’ actually really happened. You know, there’s a part of me, that just wants to forget it, because looking back with clarity, it’s so horrible. But, I think it’s necessary. At least for me
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 5:33pm
geminigirl says:
I think I just invented a new word!”SPATH_BAIT” ! I think its a goodie. Like Relationshit, that wasa goodie.!
Love, your so modest Gem.XXX
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 7:00pm
witsend says:
Hi Gem,
How are you doing? I hope things are getting better for you.
Today is the day. His bags are packed and he is ready to go….I am trying to deal with the emotional end of it. It is certainly the hardest thing I have ever gone through in my life so far. Please pray for me because I am having trouble praying.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 7:13pm
recovering says:
Hello robxsykobabe — You’ve obviously done a lot of thinking and analyzed things well. I also think you have done more than your part to help your relationship. You said your ex didn’t understand why you’d say no to some things, stating ‘we are in a relationship and these are things you do for those you love.’
WHO IS HE TO DECIDE WHAT YOU SHOULD BE WILLING TO DO FOR HIM, WHEN IT IS NOT RECIPROCAL OR DOES NOT BENEFIT YOU? His comment that he would do anything for you and wasn’t going to be in a relationship with someone who wasn’t willing to put forth any effort WAS SO BLATANTLY EXAGGERATED AND VERY RIDICULOUS AFTER ALL YOU DID TO BE SUPPORTIVE AND HELPFUL.
His sense of entitlement may have triggered guilt that does not belong to you. When you consider all the things done and said in your relationship, he clearly has double standards. Please cut yourself some slack. You are right that you should not do for him what he is/should be responsible to do for himself and his children.
This immaturity and total lack of appreciation is common with these N/S — some of them actually live in a fantasy world and think perfection from a mate is their birthright when they don’t even come close to measuring up to half the level of companionship you’ve demonstrated with your significiant other.
Trust your judgment because you are a balanced thinking and feeling person. You have a right to establish boundaries and make decisions about what is OK and not OK to do for someone else. Those who will respect your very reasonable limits, from what I can tell, are more realistic, decent and don’t think someone owes them something.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 7:51pm
robxsykobabe says:
I am also wondering if there is some correlation between sex and the sociopathic ideals? I wondered often if he had an addiciton due to how UNBELIEVEABLY necessary sex was for him—ALL—–THE—–TIME! But more than that, I wondered if he simply viewed me as the object for his self gratification. He would say “I want to feel like you want me and desire me” and then proceed to grope and fondle me, never understanding how offensive that was! I would tell him ‘give me a chance to want and desire you instead of planning our encounters to the minute” (he would say things like ‘today I thought we could go the the store, then the gym, then come home and have sex, and then go out”).
I am doing better, but boy oh boy has it taken me some time to sort this whole mess out! Ive never understood the sexual component to it though…any one have some insight?
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 8:59pm
icanseeclearlynow says:
hi robxsykobabe,
“Ive never understood the sexual component to it though…any one have some insight?”
My exNarc was like that too. He needed it all the time and whenever HE needed it. He groped and handled me to the point it was overdoing it. I mean affection is nice, but it was to a sick degree and it wasn’t affectionate..that’s the thing. Mine wouldn’t plan things down to the minute, he just expected it. He also played MAJOR guilt trips on me regarding “never EVER leading him on if I wasn’t going to be into it”. And YET…what would lead him on??? Ha, my just being in the room. Figure that one out.
As for insight, the only thing I can offer on that is there is a specific type of Narcissistic that is the seducing Don Juan type that takes ALL of his self worth and image from his conquests. My exN would constantly talk about his ex’s and how they ALL, every single one of them idolize him to this day as the best lover they’ve ever had, even if it ended badly. It was paramount to him to be viewed as the IDEAL lover for each woman in his life, AND to know that there would never be another lover as good as him. He asked me this all the time.
There is a definite sexual seduction component going on that actually makes you lose your mind in a way and they use it to their full advantage.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 9:50pm
geminigirl says:
Hi, dearest Witty! Towanda! Your spath son is leaving. Hooray!
I know your going to have very mixed feelings. hey, NO_ONE can understand what its like to havea child who has morphed into a spath, unless youve been there, AND I HAVE.so has OXY. No, they are NOT like Normal teenagers who hate their mums but eventually become nice, caring humans. THESE PEOPLE NEVER CHANGE, in fact they get worse! My daughters are 43 and 45, and NOPE they havent turnd into NICE PEOPLE.
For 30 years, I have turned myself into a human pretzel, for them, maybe if I was nicer to them, more understanding, more forgiving, more loving, MORE MORe MORE. NO!!! I nearly killed myself from overgiving, and meanwhile I got shit back from them, NADA >NIL
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 11:28pm
geminigirl says:
Sory, wit, I lost half of this post!
What i went on to say was, they have made their choices,weve done the best we could for them. We didnt ask to have Spath adult kids. Now its time to let them go, and save our own lives!! They will NEVER change!
If possible, I would sell up if you own the house, and move, dont leave him a forwarding address, because when he runs out of money,{and this wont take him long,} hell be back, scrounging from you again. DONT be as I was , consumed by false guilt, always forgiving, giving giving, giving, and getting zilch back except abuse, insults, patronising behaviour.maybe violence.
My new husband and I took D back for a few months after we were married and she dam near split us up, she made so much trouble.Now you need to save your own life! Yes, they ARE capable of killing us! remember the Menendez brothers?
If your gut tells you to fear him then listen to it! If that heavy, red hot steam iron had been 6 inches closer to my right temple, Id be dead by now. She was 19 then. Of course, she denied it, so did her spath sister, who wasnt even there!She is 45 now. has she turned into a nice, caring loving daughter? Has she F–ck!! DONT LET HIM COME BACK!! Think of poor New Lily! Be strong, you did the best you could, now is the time to kick him to the kerb. The do NOT love us, they HATE US! they are full of rage, and envy! Good luck, give him to God, and dont snatch him back, as I did with my to for years and years.GOD WILL BRING HIM TO HIS ROCK BOTTOM if you let Him. Dont even pray for him, let him go. Love, nd Hugs, Gem.XXPs I know this sounds harsh, but you have to steel your heart against weakening, and taking him back!
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 11:44pm
Lillian says:
Hi to Jofary: It’s me Lillian. Thank you for your note. I am so glad to know that it ends. I am sorry for your situation as I know the myriad of feelings it causes. Some days I can’t believe I did it to myself. Other days I want to know for what reason. If everything, does indeed, happen for a reason. Every day we live brings about our destiny. And oh, does it ever. I was with my spath (absolutely love that word!!!) for six years. It’s been two since he’s been gone. I am hoping maybe things will begin to tilt back in year three only 1/2 the time I was with him. It might take six but I hope not. I hope not. I am finally feeling like I might be able to work again if it’s not too late and everything has unraveled too far to recover. I was actually diagnosed like a veteran of war with PTSD by my therapist and my phsyciatrist. I was in shock. Shell shocked without taking a bullet. I was shocked that what I was going through had a name. A name, alas, but no cure but time. May time bring us all peace. And love bring us comfort. Goodnite. Lil
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 12:50am
ErinBrock says:
WITS:
My heart is with you…..I just read your post to Gem….
I know this must be very difficult for you and i assume he’s off to CAlifornia….
Please remember……it WILL all work out the way it should.
This will teach him life lessons and you will learn about yourself more too.
Use this time to Breeeaaattthhhh…….
Get back to being YOU and not looking over your shoulder as you have the past year or so…..
I think, after the shock wears off…..and you are able to ‘let go a bit’…..you might feel a huge releif.
Trust in your mothering, know you will always do what is in his AND YOUR best interest……
But at this point…..he’s making his own bed.
I’m sorry and know your in my thoughts!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 3:41am
Matt says:
witsend:
Know this isn’t a red-letter day for you. In a strange way it marks the anniversary of his beginning his life, choosing to end his life with you and go off on his own, and is the beginning of the next (S-free) phase of your life. Very bittersweet, I know. Anyhow, I just wanted to let you know you’re in my thoughts and prayers today.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 9:42am
Cat says:
Wits,
My heart is with you. I know this happened yesterday and it must be hard, but I echo what Matt just said. In a way, this is a new beginning for you and I can only share from experience that it DOES get better. Right now, just roll with the emotions, hon. Go with the flow and let them all out. I did a list of all that he had done to hurt me and that helped somewhat, at the time.
Sending hugs and healing,
Cat
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 9:47am
heavenbound says:
Witsend
I just want you to know that you are in my prayers. God bless you. With love and hugs, Heavenbound
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 10:45am
witsend says:
Gem, MAtt, Heaven, Cat, Erin,
I wish it was that easy. The law is NOT on my side. He can come back at any point before the age of 18 and I will HAVE to open my door to him.
As a matter of fact I can’t kick him out at 17 BUT he can leave at 17 w/o my permission. And will NOT be treated as a runaway….
I would actually like to look at this as a begining where I might BEGIN the process of letting go…. However this might only last a week, a month, or? That hangs over me, because I can’t just CHOOSE not to let him back in the door. And he knows it.
He is doing this because he CAN. And because he is in CONTROL. And because he has WON. And all of the other delusional kinds of thoughts he has going on right now. This is a kid with a 17 year old body working with a 4 year or less brain capacity of functioning.
There is another part of this LEGAL GREY area from 17-18 that is even a worse nightmare (for the parent) but I will not post it here because HE HAS found this site. And I am already uncomfortable posting here at all.
I would love to hear Matts take on this part though, I am just not willing to risk putting it here….
And of course what I write above doesn’t cover the EMOTIONAL side of what has happened. That will not be “over” when he reaches 18. Loosing a child is a long hard row to hoe. And it doesn’t end at any certain age.
And Matt you nailed it. The day he chose to leave was putting that stake right into my heart. How could I ever forget that “date” of him leaving…..?
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 11:57am
Matt says:
witsend:
Yes, he’s in control — at the moment for 364 more days. And tomorrow will be 363 more days. And the day after that will be 362 more days, etc, etc, etc.
Did he win this battle? I have no doubts that in his mind, he has. But, ultimately, he’s lost the war. The fact of the matter is that you will now begin laying the groundwork for a life that doesn’t include him.
I’m not one to stomp out anybody’s dreams. Hell, I’ve chased a few myself. Some worked out — I had a had a plan B. At the moment I’m still trying to formulate that plan B for my current circumstance. But, I know that I’ve got the resources — an education, a few bucks in the bank, and the willingness to do what I have to to survive (yes, I have temped at word processing) — that somehow I’ll find my way to the next level. Despite your trying to get your son to realize that and give him the oportunities to create a plan B — get educated, etc, he’s going to chase his dream. Hopefully it will work out and he’ll be come that famous skateboarder. But, if it doesn’t, and he’s 18, his plan B will not be moving back in with mom. It is sad, really, but, it is his own decisions at the end of the day that will land him where he lands.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 12:29pm
Matt says:
edit:
It should have read “Some worked out — I had some success in Hollywood, and some didn’t. But, I always had a plan B.”
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 12:30pm
robxsykobabe says:
Hi again:
I am STILL remembering things that happened in teh 3.5 years and, again, feel the need to write them out…any assistance in analysis would be greatly appreciated
*”I have a tendency to steamroll over people and need someone to stop me” was one of the first things he said to me upon meeting.
*”I used to lie and use people” was another thing said…who tells a possible mate these things within the first month?
*He wanted us to go on a cell phone package together…meaning—I buy the package, he gets the free phone and pays me his portion of the bill—after 2 months of us dating.
*Texted me one Sunday after I had made plans to go out with friends and didnt invite him…”The cops are at my house-call me”. Of course I jumped on that one…why would the cops be at his house? They were there because a tree fell in his front yard–as I confronted him with how juvenile that was he responded “yeah, maybe I was trying to see if you still cared.”
*Valentines day 2009-I hadnt worked in 5 months (layoffs) and money was tight. He wanted an IPOD. I said I would get it for him, although he may have to wait a week or two after V-Day due to money. Got PISSED–said “whatever, Ill just buy it myself.”
*Let me set the stage: He has a drug ridden past although at the time we met, had been clean for at least 5 years (so he said). Ive NEVER once touched an ounce of ANY drug…EVER! One night at dinner, he told me Id be the perfect person for him to get ‘high’ with because I wouldnt let anything happen to him. He told me he was ‘thinking’ about getting high and if the opportunity arose, he was gonna do it. I, clearly objected to such nonsense (we had dated for 3 years at that time and to my knowledge he hadnt done drugs) and his respone was “this isnt fair for you to say no because its something he LOVES to do adn he wouldnt stop me from doing something I love to do”. He said we needed to ‘reconsider’ our relationship if I couldnt handle that.
Ahhhhhh…and the list goes on and on and on and on…
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 3:49pm
robxsykobabe says:
At the cost of monopolizing this site, I am on a RAMPAGE with all the crap. Here’s another situation that has occured…
One Saturday morning, I wanted to go see a movie my ex typically wouldnt want to see. He agreed, although he had stipulations-sex. Fine. That was over with and we were on our way. The day was typical in that we did everything we normally do on Saturdays plus the movie. Later that evening, as we sat on my couch, he had asked “hey, whaddoya say we give each other 10 minute massages before bed?” That was fine, although I clarified what he meant reinforcing that I did NOT want to have sex…we already had. That was fine with him at first, although when the time came, it was a different story!
Ten pm rolled around and he prompted me “ready for our massages”…and gave me a seductive wink. I agreed, but again made it clear I did not want sex. That was the WRONG thing to do! He proceeded to yell at me “Im so sick of this shit”….”Im not arguing with you about it…lets just go to bed”. Floored as I was, I proceeded to stand up for myself saying ‘are you seriously yelling at me for saying I didnt want sex after you ALREADY got it today?” There was no response.
He went into the bedroom as I sat on the couch..steaming! A few minutes later, I went into the bedroom, layed in bed, and felt so sick being next to him. At about 10:20, after having not spoken for 20 minutes, he casually looks at me and asks “so, are you ready to give me that massage?”
I was numb, sick, furious, and hated him at that time. To this day I dont know why, but I said “fine”. I proceeded to give him a 10 minute massage only to have him say at the end “so, that’s it…you’re only gonna do it for 10 minutes?” Disgust isnt a strong enough word for that time.
I couldnt sleep that night and was up thinking and thinking. We woke up the next morning and he was on my loveseat. I sat on the couch, passifying what happened the night before and simply said “I didnt get any sleep last night at all”. He gave me a look of half disgust at me even being there and the other half of not caring if I were alive or dead….and shook his head smugly with no response. We got ready for the gym, and of course, he would not respond to any attempts at conversation so, I stopped talking to him. He wanted Starbucks, fine, we went to Starbucks. He wanted to do abs after classs, fine, we did abs—all with NO conversation. He wanted to go out for lunch…fine, we went out for lunch-still no conversation.
Upon returning home, we were there a half hour and he said to me “Im ready to go home any time you want to take me”. We jumped in the car immediately…still not talking…and off we went on our hour trip to his house. I dropped him off, we spoke no words until 7pm that night. That asshole called me and had the NERVE to ask if I was ‘mad’ about something!
We didnt talk much for the next few days, however, somethign had to give because we had a trip planned. Wednesday night, he called me in a very concerned tone asking if everything was alright. Well, my friends, I LET HIM HAVE IT!!! All the everything I wanted to say for the longest time came flying out without censor!
He apologized, of course, cause we were supposed to leave on vacation the next day and if I was that pissed so to not go…who would he take…he has no friends (by the way-he told me all the time I was his best friend). He began quoting passages from a book I have and when I asked him where he got the quotes from he made up some lame ass lie. Fine. We hung up and I looked in my room for the book—its a damn BOOK for gods sake! Not to my surprise…it wasnt there!
I called him to ask again where the quotes came from and again he told some bull shit lie. My response was “oh, because that sounds like something from my book His Needs, Her Needs that I cant find”. Instantly, he became defensive telling me all the places I should look in my house and then blamed me for having someone in my house other than him. I dropped it, knowing he had the book, and waited for him to hang his own self.
We went on vacation, had a fabulus time! Upon coming home on Monday, he calls me (mind you almost a week after the incidetn) to tell me he’s HIGHLY offended that I accused him of stealing from my house. I didnt know what the hell he was talking about. He demanded an apology saying that we cant be in a relationship if I dont trust him. I refused to give one saying I hadnt ACCUSED him of anything. This went on for about 2 days of constant phone calls asking if I was ready to apologize for offending and hurthing his feelings, and I continued to refuse to apologize.
We have been done since then. I deleted all forms of communication except for the phone as I would have to get a new number. I still wonder why he hasnt contacted me to pick up his things…is that his ‘reason’ to contact me after Ive been punished enough?
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 4:54pm
OxDrover says:
To answer your question–quote” is that his ‘reason’ to contact me after Ive been punished enough? ”
Yea, you got that right. Put his stuff in the trash (or better yet, bag it up and give it to goodwill in these hard times) and don’t anwer the phone when he calls. Are you the “FREE storage locker?” I think not.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 8:48pm
robxsykobabe says:
OxDrover:
I was thinking it was the reason (considering he has some pretty nice shoes he wouldnt want to just give away). Its nice to have it confirmed, though…Im really NOT crazy!
Thanks
Meg
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 9:50pm
Matt says:
robxsykobabe:
When you described your S-ex’s behavior — ruining weekends with the silent treatment, it brought back memories. My S-ex ruined 7 (count ‘em 7) vacations in one year. And every single time, without fail, I would drop him at his apartment and as I drove away, he would start texting me with the “Miss you” etc. And stupid me would tolerate this everytime.
The week of the last vacation we were going on, to Greece to my family’s villa for 2 weeks, he was facing eviction on the day we left. He tried to strong arm the six months back rent out of me. I refused and told him that the best I would do is walk him through getting the poceengs stayed in landlord-tenant court.
Doing that was the worst mistake of my life. We got to Greece and he promptly ripped off my neighbor’s villa — on my birthday. The next two weeks were the vacation from hell He not only paid for nothing, he withheld sex, was verbally abusive, a total nightmare.
Things were pretty much skidding to their conclusion when he invited me to his brother’s wedding. The night after that he pulled out all the stops with sobbing etc trying to get 10 grand out of me for his back rent. By now I was wise to him and having none of it.
How I wish, the first time he pulled his antics, New Year’s Eve 2007, that I didn’t give him his walking papers then. But, no. I fell for that damned text message. And wasted the next 11 months of my life and tens of thousand of dollars on that avaricious piece of sewage.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 11:03pm
OxDrover says:
Dear R-babe,
I think it would be quite nice of you to DONATE those nice shoes to a good charitable cause—be sure and get a DONATION SLIP so if you itemize your taxes you can deduct the value from your income for tax purposes! LOL ROTFLMAO
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Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 12:02am
robxsykobabe says:
GREAT solution OxDrover! I hadn’t thought of that…Lord knows I SPENT enoough of my own money…getting a little ‘present’ back may just be in my future!
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Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 7:27am
robxsykobabe says:
Ya know, as I was sitting at work today, I began reminiscing about all the ’strange’ incidents that occured during our 3.5 year relationship. What struck me was how subtle all the craziness was. I had bought him an IPASS for Christmas thinking it would help out with tolls when he came to my house. About every 4 months or so I would put 15 or 20 dollars on it to help pay for the cost as each time he came to my house it cost him 3 dollars each way. When it came time for ME to use the IPASS because he lost his license it hadnt occured to me that he NEVER put money on it for me! In fact, he would ASK me to put money on it for him…but not ONCE did he do this for me.
Silly things like this that I passified while dating come to mind every once and a while and I have to keep from being hard on myself for ‘allowing’ the abuse, manipulation or useing.
Sometimes I wonder if, as a sociopath, they KNOW exactly what they are doing at any given moment (referring to precontemplation) in time or are these behaviors ingrained (referring to biology).
After we broke up in June, he continually said “I just wish we could get back to how it was our first year together” and it struck me as odd. My ’situation’ has remained almost EXACTLY the same (with the exception of earning my Masters and Type 73), my character has remained the same, my intentions have remained the same…etc. What had changed, though is his ability to ‘hide’ his TRUE self. And so as he said this to me I thought “so, he can CONTROL how he chooses to act with me” because how he was when we initially met and how he was at the end were polar opposites. Ok…so if hes in control, then whats the motivation for acting soooooo poorly?
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Friday, 18 December 2009 @ 8:26pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
R babe,
hmmm, that suggests in control of us, BUT NOT THEMSELVES. And if there is a lot of ugly underneath, it’s gotta come out sometime.
the spath i tangled with presented as the SWEEEEEEETEST. now that that sockpuppet is ‘dead’, the one who she is pretneding to be is a HORROR SHOW. I keep thinking how much of a relief that must be to her to no longer have to be soooo kind-ish.
Even if there is NO moral compass to weigh them down, it must be a burden to keep ALL those lies and in this case, all those personalities, straight. In fact, she only did one really well – the others had cracks in them and they showed more and more. But she did manage to change the character of one of them over time, rather convincingly.
Is all the deflective behaviour just a way to hide the lies and the truth of the ugly? Or is the deflective behavior intrinsic? Dunno. Anyone care to weigh in?
best
one step
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Friday, 18 December 2009 @ 8:44pm
robxsykobabe says:
Hi everyone:
Once the craziness got to be SO crazy (after he broke up with me saying “I was afraid you were leaving me behind” cause he didnt have a licnese anymore and I stopped picking him up), my parents told me he was NEVER allowed back to their house. Im 33 and he is 35. I have not lived at my parents for a VEEERRRRYYYY long time. He, on the other hand, has lived at his parents since Ive known him (3.5 years) and prior to that, he had moved in and out numerous times between shacking up with his ‘others’.
So, being very close to my parents, they told me he wasnt welcome there anymore. They had set a boundary. It was difficult to imagine how I was going to have a relationship with him, knowing my family couldnt stand him.
He wanted to visit with my parents a couple times and I avoided the situation. My grandmas 90th birthday party was approaching, and well, he wasnt invited. I had to tell him he wasnt going to the party and that my parents never wanted to see him again. Well, as you can imagine…he wasnt happy.
He begged and pleaded with me to ‘tell’ my ma that things were ‘good’ between us and things were working out. I refused. He wroter her an email explaining the ‘whys’ he broke up with me and all the other shit he lied about.
My mom didnt respond.
One night at the beginning of November, he asked if my ma had said anything about the email. I didnt know he had emailed her and she hadnt said anything to me (knowing she wasnt gonna respond and not wanting to even mention his name to me probably). I said no and he proceeded to give ME an earfull on how disrespectful that was and after emailng her 3 times, she SHOULD have enough respect to AT LEAST acknowledge him.
At that point, he proceeded to DEMAND that I ‘talk’ to my ma because he “couldnt be in a relationship where (my) parents werent gonna acknowledge (him)”. I refused stating its not my job to tell my mom to not be mad at him.
Talking about denying responsibility and always trying to get what the sociopath wants is clear to me right now. I never did understand what the appeal towards my parents was for him. His parents are both alive and, in fact, are about as sick as he is with enabling ALLLLLL his behaviors. He told me numerous times that he wished my parents were his…
Always something for me to think about……:)
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Saturday, 19 December 2009 @ 10:03pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
R BABE –
‘He told me numerous times that he wished my parents were his…’
probably ’cause he had sucked his dry, and yours still have ‘life’ in them.
oh, they are just nasty F&*ks.
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Saturday, 19 December 2009 @ 10:25pm
robxsykobabe says:
Hi One_Step:
Interestingly enough, when he and I met, his mothers first question was “you arent gonna try to figure him out, are you”, as she knew I am a therapist.
I cant tell you the amount of times I heard from his mom “(he) has realy turned into a great guy”, “Im so proud of the person he’s turned into”.
This is after she sent me a testimony she wrote about how she was ‘dangling on the ledge of the abyss” because of all the ‘hurt’ he had caused.
Im sure they aren’t sucked dry…they feel SORRY for him-wich perpetuates his nasty ass dysfunction. His parents (whom he lives with, mind you, at almost 36 y/o) drive him EVERYWHERE because he lost his license…without so much of even a huff or puff. He’s just disgusting…plain old disgusting.
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Saturday, 19 December 2009 @ 11:08pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
r babe – poor woman, such delusion and denial.
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Saturday, 19 December 2009 @ 11:28pm
robxsykobabe says:
a-men!
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Saturday, 19 December 2009 @ 11:34pm
LouiseGolem says:
gotta write this somewhere, and this spot is as good, if not better, than any. In October I broke it off with a man who is a sociopath, I believe. I stopped consuming anything that would alter my mind and began counseling, and I began to see what a twisted world I had lived in when I was hanging around with him.
I was, as Donna says above, recovering my old boundaries — I’d crossed several over the last year or so. As I have reclaimed those boundaries, it has become harder to be in contact with him, but I did retain minimal contact.
Yet I continued, and continue, to love him, a bit as a mother would love a child, and sometimes as a lover would love her beloved.
Anyway, I sense his world is crumbling — I kept getting messages from him, begging me to come back, begging me to move in with him, to just talk to him on the phone. . . then earlier this week, he sent me a rather obscene e-mail with pictures of himself. That was followed, a day or two later, with the inquiry “did that turn you on?’ I Responded to neither. Then he sent me a most horrendous e-mail, with no text by him, just pictures of women who had had acid thrown in their faces. Nearly all had broken off a relationship.
I was horrified and very upset. A colleague suggested I report it to the police, which I did, and found he’d actually broken a law. Tomorrow, on the advice of several friends, I’m going to do something I’ve never done before — I’m going to issue a stay-away order. This is tearing me apart, because, well, it’s Christmas time. And there’s still love in there somewhere. And I just keep thinking I’m misinterpreting, . . . but then I think: am I letting a boundary cave in?
I’d love some feedback. . . . this is a man, by the way, who verbally threatened me at least once over the past six months. . . .
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Sunday, 20 December 2009 @ 9:04pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LouiseG,
Yoiu have stated that this man is threatening to you, and sends you horrible pictures, treats you poorly and you are asking us to VALIDATE that you should follow up on a “stay away” order when he has “viiolated” the law?
Louise, you KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, you have been around here long enough to know that the man is:
1) a sociopath
2) does not keep his promises
3) they cannot change
4) is threatenning to you
But you LOVE HIM, so you are being “harsh” to him?????? Get real girlfriend! They do not change. They cannot bond! They cannot love.
If you want something that will appreciate you, go adopt a dog or if you are really into S&M, go adopt a wino or drug addict or “be nice” to this psychopath.
LOVE YOURSELF!!! Merry Christmas! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 20 December 2009 @ 9:11pm
LouiseGolem says:
Thanks, OxDrover,
I needed that!
(Sometimes it just helps to have someone who’s been there remind us. . .)
Hope you have a Merry Christmas, too!
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Sunday, 20 December 2009 @ 9:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Louise,
I wrote and re-wrote my response to your post, several times, and took out all the BOINKS with the cyber skillet, I thought maybe right before Christmas I ought to have a little pity on some folks! LOL
But for gosh sakes, have pity on yourself, You don’t need this pain and chaos! and you know that is all it is! his “love me or I will kill you” threats are definitely not “love” and you know it. Get a restraining order and NC no matter what—dopn’t lose sight of your best friend–YOURSELF! Now be a good friend to that self! (((hugs)))
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Sunday, 20 December 2009 @ 10:46pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
…SORRY, hit the enter key accidentally
I covered my mouth in shock when i read about the acid pictures…….
THERE IS NO LOVE IN THERE FROM HIM! THERE IS NO MISINTERPRETATION ON YOUR PART GIRL!
RUN!
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Monday, 21 December 2009 @ 1:42am
icanseeclearlynow says:
robxsykobabe:
I’m going to juxtapose some things you wrote in your post to make a point.
First these two:
“then earlier this week, he sent me a rather obscene e-mail with pictures of himself. That was followed, a day or two later, with the inquiry “did that turn you on?’ I Responded to neither. Then he sent me a most horrendous e-mail, with no text by him, just pictures of women who had had acid thrown in their faces. Nearly all had broken off a relationship.”
“I sense his world is crumbling”
Then you:
“it’s Christmas time. And there’s still love in there”
Do you see the crack????
WHERE is the LOVE?
GET AWAY FROM HIM!!!! He is devolving.
The only love you’re seeing is in YOU. NOT HIM!!! It’s an illusion.
LISTEN to THIS voice:
” . . . but then I think: am I letting a boundary cave in?”
Yes. You are. EVery time you let a boundary cave in you lose a part of yourself….until there is nothing left.
Is that what you want?
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Monday, 21 December 2009 @ 3:34am
icanseeclearlynow says:
Sorry. I made a mistake and addressed my above post to the wrong person. It should be to LouiseGolem and not robxsykobabe.
Louise someone who threatens you does NOT love you.
Please take care of yourself.
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Monday, 21 December 2009 @ 3:45am
robxsykobabe says:
Hi again…its me just thinking to no end…
Yesterday was his birthday (36…and did I mention with no license, car, 20,000 dollars in child support backpay, lives at home, ex drug addict, etc?)…
and I was in guilt mode! Guilt mode? you may ask…for what?
Here was my thinking…
-It was really mean of me to just cut off all contact with him cold turkey and not respond to his last voicemail…
-What if I find that book Ive been accusing him of stealing?
-I bet he’s sitting at home on his birthday wishing I called him.
I was trying to bargain with my irrational desire to ’sooth’ him on his birthday when in reality I was feeling unsoothed….and has he ever thought about ME that way? HELL NO…my mind probably hasnt crossed his mind except for those times on the weekends when he and his child have nothing to do and they are stuck at his parents house…CAUSE HE CANT DRIVE…
Why is this not getting any easier…in fact, sometimes I feel as if Im regressing…
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 9:45pm
OxDrover says:
Dear R-babe,
TWO STEPS FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK—-VERY NATRUL. that’s the way it goes. Yes, I know, it’s not “logical” but it is just the way we heal and get over the grief of the “loss” we suffered.
We think that THEY THINK like we do, but they DO NOT. But because we think X, we think they must think X, but they don’t hve the same motivations we do, but they can sometimes FAKE IT and it looks like they are “normal” but when you look at the BIG PICTURE, it is pretty UGLY.
Keep on reading, READING and MORE READING here and any othe rplace that has good practical advice and LEARNING and pounding it into your head logically and the emotional part will follow at its own pace.
It has taken many of us YEARS to get our heads out of our butts about some of this, and when we get one layer fixed, we move on to a deeper one, like peeling an onion—and sometimes a new layer makes you cry again, but in the end it is worth it. I have worked myself back to my childhood and the UNTRUE “concepts” that were given to me that I based my LIFE UPON, my hopes upon, and they were FALSE. So now I have to examine each “truth” in my mind and heart and check it against what I SEE in RL and see if it is true or not.
Learning these “things” (true or false) as children helps us in decision making as adults, but if the things we “learn” turn out to be FALSE, then we have to check everything to see if it is valid or not.
Just like a kid born into a family of radicals may be taught “all black people are dumb” and accept that as a “truth” but as they go out into the world, they meet black people who are NOT dumb, but their teaching says otherwise, so they have to either accept BLINDLY a thing they can SEE is false, or they have to adjust it. So, maybe only “some black people are dumb”, but so are some whtie people too—so then since ONE concept they were fed as a child is proven FALSE then they have to check on ALL the others, but sometimes this is a LOT OF WORK, so people will hang on to the old false ideas because it is WORK to check them out and sometimes that is threatening to their concepts of ‘right and wrong.”
The false concepts I was fed were mainly religious based, but not all were religious based, some were socially based as in which people were okay to associate with and which weren’t. Actually, it was NOT racial, which is amazing to me, but that may be due to my step father actually, who was not a racially prejudiced person.
But I have had to reexamine almost every “truth” I accepted as a child, and sometimes you don’t6 even think about one until it “comes up” in some form or another and you “feel” one thing and “See” another thing and then you get an “Ah ha” effect, “so that’s why I was uncomfortable in this situation.”
The FOG–fear, obligation and guilt that we are fed and are afraid to cross any of the “truths” because they will FOG us, we have to some how re-think these things and see if they are appropriate or not.
Sure, there are some things we should feel afraid to do. There are things we ARE obligated to do, and some things if we do othem we should feel guilty for doing/not doing them. But WHICH things should we fear, feel obligated to do, or guilty for doing/not doing? We as ADULTS have to decide for ourselves, or accept the results of letting our parents or others decide WHICH things FOR US.
I’m done letting my egg donor’s training dictate to me what I should feel and when. I’m making my own decisions about when to be afraid, when to be obligated, and when to feel guilty, and I do NOT feel guilty for making my own decisions.
Gosh, how adult of me! LOL ROTFLMAO
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 11:10pm
robxsykobabe says:
Sometimes its really difficult to conceptualize and accept what REALLY did happen. Like if my friends were telling me all the things I saw, there would be no question…he’s more of a loser than anyone ever should be-get rid of him. However, there were/are TRUE feelings of mine involved…and Im having difficulty wrapping my head around how it all could be a lie (of course, he was the MASTER at lying and making it seem like the truth).
Its becoming clearer, however, its hard to believe that he’s ‘gone on’ to find someone else after all we went through. I believe he felt he was beign ‘found out’ which is the reason for his No Contact (which I am grateful for, cause its easier this way)…but one would think he would be being eaten up by this on the inside…
Maybe my defenses are hypersensative right now. How can I sanp out of this…because I can recite to you time after time after time after time things that were ‘wrong’, that I ignored, and now have allowed to surface. Intellectually its black and white—he lied, he’s a liar…he stole, he’s a theif…he cheated, he’s a cheater.
So he hadnt changed from who he ‘was’ to who hes ‘become’ at all. He just held it together with me for a little longer than normal because I am normal and the behavioral expectations CLEARLY in my life are different than in his. Who he is and has been for the past year and a half was probably who he REALLY was…and Im holding onto what I THOUGHT he was…
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Monday, 28 December 2009 @ 11:54pm
witsend says:
robxsykobabe,
What your holding onto is the illusion he created himself to be. Not who he is. Intellectually you know that he is a liar a theif, and a cheater, as you said. But the heart is always slower to respond than what you know on an intellectual level.
S/p/n are masters at creating this illusion. That is what we fall in love with.
Once you are “on to them” that is when the illusion all falls apart and the true self comes out in full force. And because there is no “normal” break up process, no closure, no logic, this complicates everything you are going through emotionally.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 12:20am
ErinBrock says:
Robx:
When searching for an attorney,….I was adament of finding one who ‘got it’.
I would say, and still believe…once we ‘get it’…..it changes ALL!
We either ‘getit’ or we don’t.
You can’t hide once it’s ‘gotten’.
GET IT……
They are an illusion, a facade, fakes, actors…….nothing is real to them…..
We see things (niceties) in them that we fall for….it’s what all ‘normal’ healthy thinking persons look for in a mate…..
The only difference…S”s portray the behaviors…..they do not run into the soul.
It’s a hard concept to understand how we couldn’t see it….believe me…..28 years….do ya think I kick myslef…..how could I have been blind for 28 years?
Well….I had faith in myself, faith in my marriage, faith in my husband and faith in my family……what’s so wrong with that?
NOTHING……EXCEPT……I had faith in a person that exploited my kindness and loving heart!
He did not have the same agenda as me…….we were only a front!
I guess it boils down to…..IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!
How sad is that!
Don’t be hard on yourself…it’s a process……in the end…..i believe we come out much better off……
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 2:05am
pollyannanomore says:
Wow – just read through all the comments – these people really are scum and if there is such a thing as karma, they’re all coming back next life as slugs to be poisoned, snails to be squashed or earthworms to be cut into pieces with garden implements.
I can’t believe the comment about the email with acid pictures – WTF??? This guy is extremely dangerous – they all are, but to actually send you a threatening email suggests forethought and the knowledge that this would scare the hell out of you. I agree with other posters – that needs to be referred onto the Police as a definite threat. Many men have done this when a woman has broken up with them – the aim being to scar them for life so nobody else will want them (the old ‘if I can’t have you then nobody else will either’ scenario).
Roxy – the sexual thing is very very common. I too suffered constant pressure for sex and was punished by withdrawal and the silent treatment if I didn’t comply. I ended up explaining to him that his constant pressure turned me completely off and he had no chance at all if he continued with it. I also suggested he go ‘relieve himself’ and during one particularly bad argument with him about it screamed at him “I am not responsible for taking care of all your sexual urges! You can go whack off, look at porn or do whatever the hell you like, but I will no longer be pressured or made to feel bad by you about this anymore!”
What t hat behaviour is is sexual abuse plain and simple. It’s just another method to abuse us with. Mine used psychological abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, severe financial abuse and some covert physical abuse. He would pin me down and tickle me to the point I would be screaming out for mercy. He also twisted my wrists, pinned me up against walls, shoved me and prevented me from leaving rooms. He used rough treatment during sex too like pulling my hair and manhandling me – I complained vociferously about this and he stopped doing it for the most part. It’s disgusting but they really do treat us like objects with no thoughts and feelings or needs of our own.
I think the obsession with sex has to do with control for one. But it is also a distraction from the emptiness they experience as they have no real personality underneath the mask. Boredom leads to excessive thoughts about sex. The Pex would also withold if angry with me – both affection and intimacy and he was angry a great deal of the time. Another poster pointed out that they like to brag about their performance so each sexual escapade is a boost to the ego. it’s not about closeness and connection – it’s about how well they performed and how they’re the best. Crazy.
I’d like to see all of them gathered up and dumped on a desert island survivor style – imagine the games that would abound with a whole group all the same – they’d be backstabbing and competing and aiming to do one another down. Sociopath Island … has a nice ring to it. They are not fit for regular society and should be removed from it for the protection of good people who try to get along with others and help people.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 5:20am
eileen says:
Polly, I love your desert island idea – except that they would probably enjoy being in it! My ex-S had a friend who is probably an S too. I remember them slagging each other – in retrospect I realise that was a very unhealthy friendship (yeah, what a surprise). The friend would make jokes that I didn’t understand at the time, but that were a way of ‘threatening’ my ex to tell me the truth. In a way, they were both playing with me together, the friend was protecting my ex, confirming his stories etc, but also the friend was showing my ex how much power and control he had because he knew so much. That pair would be great to watch in a desert island programme.
Sociopaths really can’t have any form of relationships with any other human or in-human being.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 7:55am
amber says:
Polly…you’re so right. My ex needed constant reassurance that he was the best lover I ever had. That’s all he worried about. Would ask me ALL THE TIME. I thought it was strange that he needed me to tell him over and over again, even after 4 years. Now I know it was just to boost his ego and for control. He was an amazing lover. Sometimes I wish the sex sucked, because I think that’s really the only thing I miss. I thought that was the only time I ever saw any truth in his eyes. But I think back now, and realize it was probably all part of the game too. I wonder if he looked at other women the same way….probably. Said the same things to them….probably… It makes my skin crawl now.
And my ex was OBSESSED with porn. It didn’t bother me much. I guess I thought it was harmless, and I guess I’d rather have him looking at porn than being with other girls!! Ha!! Joke was on me! And when he knew I wasn’t bothered with it, he started sending me obscene emails with pictures he found. Or new things he would like to try. He called it doing “research.” Ewww. And by the end of our relationship he was looking at really wierd porn. Like vampire porn?!?! It’s like the regular stuff didn’t do it for him anymore. He knew he was so desensitized to porn that he didn’t even get an erection from looking at it. Sad huh? He told me he just wanted to know everything that was out there. And boy, did he. And he SWORE that he NEVER masterbated. To this day, I’m still not sure if he was serious. He may not have had to, seeming that I know now about all the other women now. Or maybe he didn’t because he was so desensitized to the porn that he couldn’t even get it up anymore. But I feel for the most part that sex drove him. He would do a ton of cocaine and go for HOURS. It was exhausting sometimes. It was never enough for him. And god for bid if I wanted it when he didn’t. He would completely withhold. Sex was always on his terms. All for the control. Creep.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 12:52pm
robxsykobabe says:
Witsend and Erin Brock:
Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Its difficult talking to people about this who dont seem to really understand, as this phenonemon seems unique.
I have been hard on myself at times. Honestly, though, when I sit back and think about it and analyze my ‘role’ in how things turned out, I have to accept that I was a GREAT person to him for however much he tried to make me believe I wasnt ‘giving him what he needs or wants’.
Those two words resonate with me like no ones business. I continually try to comprehend what he ‘needed’ or ‘wanted’ that I didnt provide and have scratched the surface of understanding that what he was being ‘neglected’ of was the ability to HAVE MY LIFE—he was told no to crawling in my skin and was expected to be his own person. But he couldnt really, cause what ‘he’ actually consisted of was a 36 year old man? who lived at home with no license, car, or ability to further himself on his own. He was, characterologically speaking-broken-and unfixable…UNLESS, he could skinny his way into my life, attach to it, and SEEM like he was a contributing factor…and at the same time, continue with his distorted sense of ‘life’ by hiding, lying, cheating, stealing because THOSE things create the excitement he craves.
When will he get tired of this? I remember one conversation we had where he told me this (us) was ‘the healtiest relationship he’s ever been in.” That was prior to any of the chaos really beginning and it strikes me as odd to this day. If he could recognize the healthiness of us at that time, comparitively speaking, then how can he not recognize that HIS behaviors created SIGNIFICANT levels of unhealthiness?
There is no correlation in his mind? Is it possible that he does recognize how his behaviors hurt people time and time again (clearly seen by all his relationships failing…even friendships), but is so wrapped up in ‘the game’ that he’s unable to stop?
I need to stop…me…I NEED TO STOP!!!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:02pm
robxsykobabe says:
Pollyannanomore:
THanks for the response too. You and I sound similar in how we approached our ex’s about sex when realllly fed up. In fact, a classic statement of mine to him was “I am not some object you can use for your personal satisfaction. I am NOT going to be treated like a piece of meat by you or any one else”…and, of course, I ‘misunderstood’ what he was doing cause ‘all (he) wanted was to feel close to me”.
I used to want to have sex with him, but after he got caught ‘meeting up’ with his ex, my desire changed. How pathetic is it that he would say to me “I want to feel like you want me”, and I would interperet that as in “wanting him around’ or ‘wanting to be in a relationship’ with him. All he EVER wanted was to have sex, as it permiated his thoughts.
At times I felt bad as if I had been acting unappreciative about having him in my life. Maybe I needed to SHOW him more how much he meant to me, how much I wanted him–I could send more emails or give little tokens of love, you know….
Boy was I wrong…because I wasnt jumping on him the minute he walked in my house, or begging for sex 4 times a day, or coming on to him…THATS what he was talkign about when he said he didnt feel ‘wanted’?
He’s so sick…does this even make sense?
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 1:17pm
pollyannanomore says:
Yep makes total sense – the Pex in my life used to make that excuse too – ‘don’t you want me anymore?’ ‘ I just want to be close to you’ (Hey buddy you ARE close – you’re right in my personal space and you ain’t coming any closer lol). Wanting was never about emotional dynamics – just plain ole sex – lust. I tried explaining to him that drive naturally drops off for everyone once the relationship matures and each gets more familiar with the other – the quality of sex changes. He wanted it to remain as it had in the beginning.
So he tried to make out the sex was reassurance of my undying devotion to him that couldn’t be expressed in any other way. Nevermind the fact I worked my fingers to the bone for him being his chef, maid, chauffeur, nurse, counsellor, life coach, friend, lover and everything else. None of those expressions of love made any difference – sex was the one he wanted. Mine didn’t cheat (as far as I know) which is quite unusual. I honestly started to wish he would at times! The pressure was terrible and being christian, there was always the undertone I was meant to submit to my husband though he never dared to vocalise it.
I do think it is to do with boredom the more I think about it. I have encountered other single guys who have the same sex obsession and it’s generally because they have too much time to think about it. It’s definitely also prowess or getting strokes for their performance. He wanted to know he was the best but didn’t want to know a thing about previous lovers – just that he was the best. When I look back now and realise it meant nothing to him, I feel creeped out. Sometimes I would well up with tears thinking about how close we were and how wonderful and pre ordained it all was and all he was thinking about in every interaction was winning.
After we split, he lured me back in once saying ‘we could have some fun’. I denied him for a long long time and then gave in and immediately knew it was a mistake. I told him then I can’t make love with someone I have no feelings for. And he was furious about it. So even when the relationship had totally ended with no hope of ressurection, he still tried to seduce me as a kind of friends with benefits thing – I find that just mind boggling. It shows me I was just being used the whole way through and he continued to have no regard for my moral and ethical boundaries though I clearly explained why I couldn’t have a sexual relationship with him without all the other factors included as well.
Another thing he did while we were together … he would do all the pressuring then sulk. But then later he would say “I’m not going to beg you anymore” and that was designed to induce guilt in me – as though his standards of libido – wanting it every day if not several times a day was normal and I was abnormal for not jumping him or being flattered and delighted by his ‘begging’ (aka pressure and abuse). It wasn’t so much what he said as the way he said it – he’d use the silent treatment for a while and be all sad and disappointed when he said it. Bastard!
Amber – your experience of him needing to be the best sounds like me as well – lots of reassurance needed – it’s just supply to them. And we’re just the backup of supply (secondary source) in case more exciting others in the world don’t come through and praise him to the hilt every day. I recall saying to him once ‘You know I am not your doll you can just put on a shelf and bring down to play with when you feel like it – I’m a person with feelings and needs of my own.’ It didn’t make any difference though – he always promised to do better, I would hope and he would let me down without fail. In the end I just stopped hoping and that’s when the real depression hit for several years – I knew I was stuck in a situation I couldn’t control and my self esteem and ability to change my reality was at rock bottom. Horrible place to be in – I am so glad I am not there now.
Eilleen – that sounds like a very intriguing dynamic to witness – that must have raised some funny feelings in you to watch it. ALmost like they were blackmailing each other about revealing their true identity. I have often wondered if they are self aware enough to recognise others who are like them?
Amber and ROxy – sorry they cheated – that must have been horrible to find out about. Crises can be handled when there is honesty but to find deceit in that area must have been a terrible shock – especially if you confronted him and he denied it.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:29pm
pollyannanomore says:
Oh one other thing seeing as how we’re on the sexy issue!
I knew towards the end the sex was complicating things for me. I couldn’t think clearly about the relationship and couldn;t reconcile this person who harmed me in everyday life with the amazing sex we shared so I stopped sleeping with him altogether. And when sex was out of the equation, the spell I was under was much easier to break – so the sex was a mean manipulation that gave the impression of love and togetherness without any actual substance in real life. Somehow I was aware enough to know that the sex was confusing the issue. In my mind I was thinking “How can we share this amazing thing and then he goes back to treating me so badly? What’s going on with that?”
It wasn;t too long before the end came after that – the first ending anyway! They have a habit of hanging around and being incredibly difficult to get over. The sex had me hypnotised though for some reason. I now know you can have great sex with someone that has no feelings for you – eeek that is sick!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 4:38pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
pollyannanomore: everytime i look at your name I read it as ‘poly amourous. forgive me.
thank-you for the idea about the media. this has crossed my mind. I want to pursue this – cause i think it might work. I need to be patient and take my time – same for everything. I have been on high anxiety and crazed adrenaline for quite a while now – so i need to go slow
IF ANYONE HAS SOME IDEAS ABOUT TAKING THE INACTION/ LIES OF A BAD LANDLORD AND HOW IT AFFECTS THE HEALTH OF HIS TENANTS PLEASE JUMP IN!
Thanks,
one step
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:28pm
pollyannanomore says:
One Step – can you get a disability advocate on your side?? They can not only advise but could also support you through the process should you actually have to go to the media. Of course you don’t really want to have to go … it’s a threat and hopefully the landlord decides to get his act together and do the right thing before that becomes necessary.
My other thought is … is the landlord the property owner? Or just an employee? If just an employee then contacting the actual owner might be a goer. You could threaten to sue for health expenses and distress … again hopefully you wouldn’t have to go through with it, but sometimes people need a little potential pain to do the right thing.
HOpe your health is improving – that’s the most important thing. Some support in dealing with this is probably a good idea – you need to conserve your strength for healing. Maybe citizens advice can advise on community groups for those with disability or health issues?
lol @ polyamorous … I am NO WAY amorous at the moment! Pollyanna was a character in a kid’s movie who was always looking on the sunny side of things – would interpret any situation in a positive light and always wearing rose coloured glasses, looking for the good in experiences. I am more real now than that but a while ago that was me!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 6:45pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi pollyannanomore – ya, i know who polly anna is – that’s why it was so funny every time i read it as polly amourous.
advocate; good idea! okay, this is tarting to take some shape. and actually I DO want to go to the press. this i shte 2nd place I have had to deal with cigarette smoke in (and pot here too) and i am SOO fed up with the sh*ite attitudes of these scumbag landlords.
Yes, it is the bully owner. but ty. i have done a lot of PR work – I am very good in print and on camera, so I think my neighobur and i – who has more smoke in her house, but is not ‘chemically injured’ as I am.
I do know a group of women here who might be able to help with this thing – but not right away. But this is a good idea – ty.
I don’t know if you read another post detailing the things I did to try to deal with this at my last place – but it was extensive. And it didn’t work. So, a new tact is necessary.
I do relaize one thing though – I HAVE BECOME A WHOOOL LOT more willing to be patient, tactical and keep my mouth shut until i pounce. VERY good traits to be gaining as we goin into the year of the tigress!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 7:27pm
pollyannanomore says:
Yes one step there is definitely strength in numbers and the fact you have health conditions will just make him look like a pig. I have read a bit about what you’ve tried so far to deal with it.
Don’t know if you read on another post but EB and Oxy were talking about not opening the mouth but rather striking with surprise – definitely a good idea.
Glad to see you have your game face on and the tiger aspect is emerging lol Groooowl!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 8:58pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
polly – grrr right back at ‘cha!
(and EB and Oxy are talking like cobras – ouuuu, awesome!)
THIS is the gift of the stupid spath! hey bitch, you didn’t fuck me up – you gave me something, and i am going to use it and my new found patience to burn your a**!
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:20pm
Matt says:
pollyannanomore and one_step:
I agree — keep your mouth shut. If you telegraph what you are up to you ruin the element of surprise. Not that Ss are overly bright (IMHO), but I swear they are psychic and can predict what you are going to do. Perhaps they can, on some level, since they get so good on reading their sources of supply.
When I decided to get get me some justice, I lay quietly in wait until I was ready to strike. And I’ve struck out S more times than a baseball game.
Strike one. I flushed out of S a written admission that I did in fact loan him money and he in fact had no intention of paying me.
Strike two. I filed a 1099-c on S. The loans were declared uncollectible by me so I could take the tax loss. The loans were declared taxable income to S and now he owed State and Federal income tax on the whole, wonderful amount.
Strike three. S had 15 defaults judgments against him and three pending lawsuits by the holders of defaulted loans. Every 30 days like clockwork I would notify another creditor of where S worked so they could garnish his wages and where S lived so they could file sherriff’s writs to get possession of his personal property, which I, being the good citizen I am, listed in excruciating detail.
And how did I accomplish all this? When I first told my story on this site, I said “To get rid of a sociopath, become a sociopath.” That means you turn off all your emotions. You turn off the guilt. YOur turn off the guilt. YOur turn off the obligation. You turn it all off and focus solely on you and your objective — in that case getting him out of my life. The revenge side of the coin was just an extension of that. I turned off the anger at him. It allowed me to figure out how I could most effectively achieve justice. And once I figured out where his weak spot was, I went after him with all I had.
Under New York law, the most that can be wage garnished (all creditors combined) is 25 percent of his salary. 15 (ultimately 18) creditors getting their hooks in him mean that his salary will be garnished for the rest of his pathetic life.
Suffice it to say it was very satisfying.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:21pm
eileen says:
LOL!!!! I love reading stories like that
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:24pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Matt: BRAVO, BRAVO!!!!!!
My spath used photos (internet site) of SEVERAL PEOPLE, none of them her – as photos of ‘him’ and his family and friends. I have over 50 – I was not the most vociferous collector of the photos posted – I hear there are around 300. (she defrauded a WHOLE bunch of us)…and non of the others know what I know: who she is, what her scamming history is, where she liiives… (sorry, being silly and spathy.
)
I don’t live in the US, but she does.
Would the folks in those pictures be able to have her charge her with fraud?
And where do I start to find them……………….
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:29pm
pollyannanomore says:
Matt that is brilliant and I so agree about turning off the emotions – he always tried to guilt me when I would try to end it and ask him to leave. So finally I said “Don’t start pulling that face – you’re a lousy actor and I know you have no emotions and no heart – I know what you are and I’m not buying it anymore.”
It was still hard – I had doubts – what if I am wrong and he’s not a P, but I kept coming back here and wrote nearly two hundred pages of how he did me wrong over the years. That evidence and posting and reading here kept me strong. Besides which – was he worried about my feelings when he stomped over my heart continually and made me cry for weeks? NO WAY! So even IF I am wrong and he’s just a regular guy who made bad mistakes – well payback is a B*TCH
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:37pm
Matt says:
pollyannanomore:
You’ve tuned into the key question. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if he’s an S/N/P/cluster B — whatever. The key question is “do I like the way he makes me feel?” The answer in everybody on this site’s case is NO!. Putting the focus back on you is key to healing.
XMAS at my parents was a cluster-B festival at its best with my malignant-N mother, my S father and my conman brother in all their technicolor glory. I used to get upset over what was going on. And I could have gotten upset again since it is apparent my brother has hijacked my father’s credit cards and run up huge bills.
Not a happy situation. But, I finally decided that I’m not going to get involved unless specifically asked to. Stargazer put it best — they deserve eachother.
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 9:51pm
pollyannanomore says:
I guess that’s true Matt – it doesn’t matter that we don’t have a written diagnosis or a run down of the psychopathy scale … we know which symptoms fit and how much hurt and damage was inflicted.
That must be real hard for you to watch your family knowing what you know. I like your term – cluster b festival lol
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Tuesday, 29 December 2009 @ 10:24pm
robxsykobabe says:
I began second guessing myself too through the holidays and his birthday. What I was asking were things like “what if I found the book I accused him of stealing?”, “how could I be so mean to just cut off contact without explaining anything?”, “is he mad at me?”
The bottom line (and I can say this at 5:34pm December 29, too9) is that he is an ass. I didnt lie to him. I didnt manipulate him. I didnt try to guilt him for anything, ever. I didnt punish him when I didnt get what I wanted. I didnt try splitting his family by telling him things his mom/dad said about him. I didnt go out with my ex. I didnt send texts to someone else professing my love to them. I didnt use my child to pull at his heart strings. I didnt lose my license and expect him to pick me up every weekend. I didnt lie about a past that was as shady as they come.
What I DID do was this…I did treat him with dignity and respect even though he didn’t show he deserved it. I did bend over backwards to help him when he was down. I did put myself second to he and his child when they were at my house. I did allow him access to my house, my things and my life because I loved him. I did tolerate very poor behaviors under the auspice of ‘love’. I did give him my heart and it got broken as a result.
When I look back on our relationship, I feel sad. I know though that I was a great person to him and if he admits nothing else in this world…he cant deny that.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 7:09pm
OxDrover says:
Dear R-babe, OH YES HE CAN DENY THAT! he will LIE LIKE A RUG AND PAINT YOU AS A REAL WITCH TO HIS NEXT VICTIM!
They lie and smear and the ’smear campaign” is one of the first signs that they are what they are to the new victim, but the new victim will fall for it and believe every lie he tells. So, you can expect to be painted as a nut case evil woman by his mouth, lying every time he moves it. LOL
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 8:52pm
Rosa says:
Ox Drover:
I’ll take your “oh yes he can deny that”, and I’ll raise you to “he probably already has denied that”….more than once.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 9:42pm
Rosa says:
If I was a gambling woman, I’d be ALL IN on that one.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 9:44pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Rosa,
I’ll see your “he probably has already denied that” and I will raise you a “he can make up stories with the best of them” and even throw in a “oh, she was soooo mean to me that I need you to prove to me that a woman can be true”—so top that one if you can! or fold your hand! LOL
Yep! no matter what you say, I will top it, and no matter what I say, you will TOP THAT ONE TOO! There is NO END to the malice that they can come up with, even when we thinnk they have sunk as low as whale poo in the ocean, they will suprise us again! LOL
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:31pm
sotired says:
Jumping in.
I have my ex recorded telling me he will deny he ever borrowed money from me. I also have myself recorded obviously. On the recording I have everything I need to go to a small claims court. I asked to settle for a small amount. I don’t want to anymore, I just want to move away from this. I have had anger today and have been reading LB.
Thanks to all here and stay stong with NC.
I don’t care what he says about me. I know who I am and the only people it would even matter to me are people who know both of us. He would stand out to them. He showed his ass last new years eve so this is also an anniversary for me. I decided I was on my way out. It took more weeks to say NO MORE and mean it. I think it’s 10 weeks no contact. I’ve quit counting almost so I know I’m getting better!!!
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:35pm
sotired says:
Meant to say, It took 6 more weeks after new years to say no more. It took all year recovering and a few contacts. Each contact though brief set me back.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:38pm
persephone7 says:
sotired: I’m about to embark on my own New Year’s anniversary of putting an end to this. Oxy – there was no money in my account as promised yesterday(and week before) and
none today ‘after 9 a.m’ either. He’s gone but his clothes and other items are still here so he must count on coming up with some excuse yet again and returning.
I have mixed emotions but it is that insanity thing about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results…Rbabe, everything you said was just what
I’ve been feeling – and I actually had some nice times and conversations with him this last month or so while he’s been at my house. But it’s literally been a high price to pay
and I am tired of ‘being in his corner’ – how crazy that I still can feel at times that I wish I could still ‘give unselfishly without desire for reciprocation’ but I guess I am not that
saint, and I have to pay the mortgage on my little cloister here, all the utilities too!
So onward and upward. I don’t know if I will ever understand all this, just have to move on – I still would like to know if there WAS someone on the other line when he’d call
the guy at “Chase Bank’ to see what the latest hang-up was for transferring his money or getting it into my account…I would be sitting right there and didn’t hear anything on other
end – rather surreal). A little part of me would still leave door open to it’s being legit – maybe I was the unbeliever, the un-faithful mate for not having endless patience with this insanity.
Rosa, I never told you, I liked the tennis analogy and have thought inwardly about it alot – I’ve also been thinking ‘grey rock’ in how I will deal (and have on occasion) with him.
I still have feelings for him but Matt, you said it all with ‘how does he make me feel?’ The answer is – always unsettled, never able to trust his word, never totally appreciated and loved.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 10:57pm
persephone7 says:
This is not anniversary of ending last year, just meant I will have this New Year’s as an ‘ending’ anniversary myself next year. Please hold good, strong thoughts for me on this.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 11:00pm
sotired says:
persephone7:
I don’t know you’re entire story but it never ends until we end it. There seems only to be the closure we finally put to it.
If there was someone on the other line they were playing his game. My guess is there was no one there, just like the people we thought we knew.
So sad. Good night.
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Wednesday, 30 December 2009 @ 11:07pm
ErinBrock says:
I’m going to ‘double down’ and ’split’ that hand……
And heres one for the dealer too…..cuz I’m certain theres’ an ace hiding in that next card!!!
On the day…the ex broke the ‘camels’ back….
he pushed me down….to the ground, went flying backwards….(ofcourse his version is different, but the judge called him out on it)……
one child witnessed this….(unbenknownst to me they were standing behind me, behind the fridge at bottome of stairs)……
I told him to get out……he wanted to talk….
Came upstairs to kids room and said, come on kids Im going to take you somewhere fun……as he was looking at me…..
I said, NO i’ve made arrangements for the children…..kids were looking at me motioning behind his back….no no mom, we are NOT going with him…..(kids and I had developed the unspoken language and they knew I was taking them to friends)
He said, let’s talk…..I said, NO, there is nothing to talk about….you should have thought about that prior to your being abusive and pushing me down…..FOR THE LAST TIME!
AS COLD AS COULD BE and in earshot of kids (the one who witnessed it)….he states……
I wasn’t abusive…..I never pushed you down…..
If no one saw it, then it obviously never happened!
It ALL became chillingly clear to me right then and there!
Period….
I left with kids……and told him he had 1 hour to get his shit and get out OR i’d call the cops…..
he was gone when I got back!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 12:08am
persephone7 says:
Erin:
Your relating what happened to you puts so much into perspective – if we don’t do something, it escalates into more hurt and usually violence like you describe. I saw it
with my own stepfather and mother, and wondered how and why my mother had to wait 25 years to ‘get it’ – and only after it turned into physical abuse heaped on the
emotional abuse he’d been dishing out to all of us for years.
I asked recently for my friend to lower his voice, he is always loud and imposing but gets confrontational and much louder each time I challenge him. He always resists
that – like it’s a form of criticism. But that clarity you spoke of has touched me more and more, like you’re finally in the eye of the storm and can get calm enough yourself
to see this thing whirling out of control around you – and you know you must find a way out or become part of it.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 12:25am
ErinBrock says:
This was taken from the below link.
Interesting and straight to the point!!!!
**it was an article referring to the Tiger situation…..but disregard the TW’s reference and get the points the author is trying to make…..
http://firstwivesworld.com/res.....%80%A6-who
do you know what one of women’s greatest strengths is? One of our greatest gifts? Our intuition. Use it or lose it. Look, we know! We see the red flags; we just …want what we want. We want handsome, tall, and strong/rich, powerful, and sexy/ hunky, artistic, etc., etc., guys who will sweep us off our feet and we’ll live happily ever after. We like the idea of love, not the reality. And I gotta tell you this; fantasy gets us into more trouble than just about anything. Slap yourself. Pay attention. Do your homework. Very few men turn into cheaters who were not already cheaters of some kind. The writing is on the wall—read it OR pay the price. How much is your peace of mind, your soul, worth? I’ll bet Mr-pro-golfer’s wife is asking herself that right now. Heavy price to pay, I say!
And fourth and last (for now, anyway): Wanna stay a victim and a blamer, or embrace the path of a skilled relationship warrior goddess? Maybe it’s time to fan your inner flame, turn up the volume of your passionate heart, and say YES to what’s most sacred and NO to what is not. To deny any suitor who has not taken care to bow before the divine, honor women and children, to live by the code inscribed in their deepest core, whose life reflects this on and off the field! How about you…shame on who?
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 1:32am
one_step_at_a_time says:
nice EB!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 1:36am
persephone7 says:
Thanks, Erin.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:21am
ErinBrock says:
“The writing is on the wall—read it OR pay the price.”
I had to go back and learn how to ‘read’…..and it was way after it cost me…….loads!!!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:29am
recovering says:
ErinBrock: You are so right that “fantasy gets us into more trouble than just about anything.”
Fantasy is what can keep us believing in a “love connection” that doesn’t really exist when someone lacks empathy, the ability to be fair, reasonable and reciprocal.
As I began understanding more clearly what I was dealing with — a disordered personality — I paid even closer attention to whether my ex-N/S words matched his actions.
He’d say, “I love you,” and I’d respond, “Then why would you have done this or that…” — and he could only come up with stereotypical responses that revealed a lack of depth.
Reality kept colliding with my “hope-filled” fantasies. Acceptance of reality — his consistently negative behaviors, unwillingness to take responsibility for this own life, inability to be authentic, etc. — helped fade the fantasies and break the attachment to him over time as interacting became less appealing, and the promises less fulfilling.
Doing this internal “homework” — ongoing observation and emotional processing as events unfolded — helped me move away from fantasy about what “potential” the relationship had, and forced me to focus on the reality of my life with him — what I really believed versus what he wanted me to believe, how I really felt, and the benefits versus costs of it all.
Becoming more grounded in reality helped me see that I had projected a lot of positive qualities onto someone in ways that gave him more power in my mind than he actually deserved.
As I reflect more on how I became turned off — as a result of the emotional abuse from my previous relationship — I see now that the ongoing conflict between valuing myself and being with someone whose self-centeredness made it impossible for him to value me, or contribute to building a positive relationship, made me draw a line in the sand.
What was real (the need to support and reinforce valuing myself) ultimately won out over fantasy (the potential of my ex to value us). He never could demonstrate consistently that he valued our relationship, compared to the ways in which he devalued the relationship through various controlling, demeaning and confusing behaviors.
This disparate situation could not continue to co-exist without compromising sanity — for me, it became a matter of basic survival and I was forced to make a choice.
The alternative was to deny reality and endure the chaos — the ongoing stress, being part of a situation that did not honor my values — with the potential results being mental, physical and spiritual deterioration.
Just as there is a method to the madness of the N/S — all kinds of ingrained behavioral and character-disordered patterns — there also are ways to increasingly get out of the world of fantasy they attempt to create and enmesh us in to a point of seemingly no escape.
Becoming increasingly grounded in reality, I believe, is what helps us detach more and more to neutralize whatever power we assume the N/S has over us. From there, we can move toward indifference. Over time, this makes it less and less likely we’ll want to engage with them in the same “intense” ways we previously did.
Facilitating this path to freedom involves replacing fantasies with new perspectives that are more balanced so that we can be more at peace with the outcomes of things beyond our control.
As many have previously said at Lovefraud, closure on normal terms — with mutual and genuine understanding and appreciation achieved once we leave the relationship — is also among the fantasies we have to give up with the N/S.
To expect the N/S to somehow come to their senses, show empathy and get real/authentic is unrealistic because — true to their nature as extremely self-centered people — they have far more to gain from us remaining entrapped in the fantasy world where they lived and wanted us to remain.
It’s been said that knowing without doing is like not knowing at all. Knowledge — both of self and others — and the willingness to do the hard emotional work are keys to unlooking the door to enter as new level of freedom for ourselves after our encounter with a N/S.
The world and our lives can begin to look a whole lot different, with renewal of spirit as we integrate the wisdom we’ve gained from these experiences.
It can be humbling and yet lovely.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 8:19am
witsend says:
Persephone7,
If you could distance yourself from him for a good length of time and have total N/C, you would have more clarity.
As long as you are with him and he is spinning his stories, he keeps you IN the story. Because he has something over you right now and he keeps playing that card. The money he owes you.
If you can stop listening to what he says. PERIOD. Don’t hear him. Go deaf when he speaks. Put in ear plugs if you must.
Just look at his actions.
Is the money in your account? Forget his never ending “story” about the money. Is it THERE?
While you are waiting for the money isn’t he also getting into you for more money?
Did he make your holiday more pleasant by doing anything with you or for you? (not by his words but by HIS actions)
What does he contribute in your life that makes him worthwile for you to keep him in your life? And if he were dating your daughter, what would you be saying to her?
Maybe if you could try and look at “facts” when it comes to him…..His actions. And totally disregard what he is saying, maybe you could see this from a different perspective. And with more clarity.
It is so HARD to comprehend all this when we are smack dab in the middle of it. It is so easy for others to see but we can’t see it because we are so involved with all the crazy making and the manipulation.
That fantasy world that they live in really does distort our own sense of reality.
I think the only way out is to embrace reality. Because the less we embrace reality the more we become a product of their distorted worlds.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 11:44am
one_step_at_a_time says:
yesterday when i was talking to someone from a housing help agency, these words popped out of my mout, ‘ yes, let’s set up that appt., as I am ging to be in this situaion for at least three months and I want to bring all the resources into line that I can.”
wow. perspective. not just freaking out. gawd those days off at xmas helped so much.
Now, to get help from the next agency i have to have an eviction notice – and they can only help if they have funds. I havne’t heard back as to whether they have funds (and they are now closed until the 4th). so, i have to not pay my rent and get the eviction notice and I don’t even know if they have funds.
Having to go into arrears to get help is horribly stressful. But I am dealing with a bully landlord, and this is the ONLY way I can get help. it IS a strategy – one that may backfire in the long term. But if I pay the rent I cannot pay my other debts or buy food.
I have decided that I can’t afford to move, even though it is dangerous to my health to live here and that I:
a) have to get a roommate (have spent the last three days making ads on free sites and contacting people looking for rooms);
b) need to engage some help to figure out a plan to deal with the smoke and the bully landlord (neighbour and I are looking into this and I will call free legal aid next week, and have an appt. with an ‘eviction prevention officer’ at a social services agency, and see who i might work with in the media – i think shaming the landlord publicly might be the best tact – but using it to underline the lack of protection under the law for non smokers;
c) I have to remind myself every moment that this is a strategy, and that i am not an awful irresponsible person who isn’t paying her rent….it’s like what the path’s do….have a ‘different’ perspective on what their actions mean. It isn’t a fully worked out strategy unfortunately – and therin lays a problem, but the xmas season has made it hard to connect with peole – so much is shut down.
I am doing better than I was two weeks ago. And today it’s lasted for hours.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 12:33pm
robxsykobabe says:
Witsend:
I would like to share a conversation my ex and I had, after we broke up in June of this year…mind you, this was after he had sent 7 poems to me, flowers, and emails saying BREAKING UP WITH ME was the worst mistake he had made…
It went somewhere along the lines of…
Me-I dont think you realize how much thinking Ive done these past 2 months.
Him-Baby, you’re gonna make your own decisions, but I can just tell you that Ive been miserable without you.
M-I dont think you understand, (princess). By not talking to you, I feel like I can SEE what was going on…all the lies, games, manipulations.
H-What games? Who have you been talking to? Have you dated anyone (getting angry)…HAVE YOU BEEN SEEING SOMEONE!!!
M-No, I havent seen anyone. I just feel like now that I look back on everything that has happened, I can see when this all began to spiral out of control. Im a healthy person who began to act very unhealthy…and Im not that person.
H-What do you mean? Ive done everything for you and us…I would still do anything for you and us.
The piece you commeneted on about clarity is true. AFter we broke up, for as sad as I was, I felt relieved that I wasnt gonna be expected to do absurd things for him anymore. The trap began though around the 2 month mark of our breakup. Maybe he couldnt find anyone to be his supply in that time and NEEDED to come back. I dont know.
What I do know is that when we got back together, from the moment it began, I was uneasy. It seemed as though I already knew how it was going to turn out, despite the fact that he took me to a concert (one of my favorite things to do), SWORE he was gonna ‘get back’ to the way he treated me our first year together (isnt that strange that he said he was gonna get back to that place…seems to me, he was telling me it was intentional…hmmmmm), and schmoozed me for, oh, about a week.
Im sick to my stomache about this though. There has been no contact as I have blocked him from any form of communication. Still, I have a bad feeling he will try to contact me, as I have a bag full of his stuff. Isnt it strange, after almost 2 months of no contact that he hasnt wanted to get his things?
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 12:39pm
recovering says:
Persephone7, I recall from several days ago when you first posted about really struggling with being let down again by your significant other, and concerns about him not placing money into your account as promised.
As witsend says, the fantasy world that they live in really does distort things, and the only way to get more clarity is to embrace reality — what is actually happening, based on his actions, not words.
You know you’ve been patient with him. You owe it to yourself to give yourself permission to stop feeling obligated to continue sharing resources if you can’t afford to give — whether energy, money — when you’re already feeling more depleted.
Please give yourself more credit for having done your best, as you realize that you cannot carry the full weight of another adult’s responsibilties…
Best wishes….
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 12:40pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsykobabe, no it is not unusual that the has left his stuff. it’s been left as leverage
Ask oxy or EB, or even Henry (his s x showed up two years later for his cat, yah right!) and I am sure many others here have this experience.
do you have a lawyer? I am wondering if there is a way to get rid of his stuff. What laws govern this in your state? (but WITHOUT YOU HAVING TO HAVE CONTACT WITH HIM)
best, one step
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 1:08pm
Cat says:
EB, Just went to the link you provided and read the article. Wow! Hits the nail on the head and yes, our greatest gift is our own intuition, which I had shoved on the back burner for years. Right now, it’s in over-drive, but that’s OK too. It won’t be that way forever.
I really like the last paragraph….shame on who? It drives home the point that we need to trust ourself, pay attention to those “funny” gut feelings and then HONOR what we feel by giving it it’s due attention.
I really don’t like getting slapped upside the head over and over and that’s what my intuition was doing to me…hello…duh!!…will you get it already?
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 1:23pm
witsend says:
robsxykobabe,
The thing is it ISN’T strange at ALL that he left some of his stuff. This is a really common thing that they do. His “stuff” that he left is his foot in the door (in his distorted thinking) for the next time he wants to contact you. He figures that you can’t possibly ignore him if he is trying to contact you to “just” get his stuff. It really is just keeping all of his options “open” in his mind. In reality it is keeping his “suppliers” open in case he needs you later.
And your conversation with him was CLASSIC sociopath. The focus of the conversation is ALWAYS diverting the attention of the wrong doing, to YOU instead of owning up to anything they might have done.
If you presented a S/P/N with a VIDEO tape of them cheating with the O.W. They would turn the entire thing around to point out to you what a terrible person you were for not trusting them. NO MENTION of the fact that they were caught red handed cheating……The entire focus would be on you and how dare you to not trust them.
It really is pretty amazing. If we had the ability sooner to remove our emotions and how we take everything that they do to us “personally”….And if we could see it for what they are really DOING without our emotions excusing their behavior….
Their actions really do speak LOUD & CLEAR.
The only thing we really can do is embrace reality.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 1:23pm
persephone7 says:
witsend and recovering:
I’m just home from lunch and checked in, have to hurry. Your comments are both true and appreciated, more than I can say right now. I am seeing all that you say about the fantasy, the
truth is setting me free – and believe me, though I ‘m getting through this New Year’s eve with him, I have been emotionally listing his actions and inactions towards our relationship – I think
he’s aware of it and has been nicer – his things are still here. But the truth is I am onto him, and onto myself for my part in all this – and reality is forcing me to move him on out – unless he
makes a some major transformation AND starts to pay his way. Will write more later, but wanted to respond, thanks so much – and EB that article was just what was needed, too – you have that psychic thing going on just what and when to post…
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:35pm
amber says:
Thanks for that article EB.
“Very few men turn into cheaters who were not already cheaters of some kind.”
This has probably been the most important lesson I learned. To listen to my gut or my inner self. God gave me women’s intuition for a reason……to protect myself from creeps like this. I still don’t know why I didn’t listen to it for 4 years. But I’ll be damned if it’s not the first thing I pay attention to next time I come across one of these scumbags. That voice is loud and clear and won’t be ignored ever again, because ya know what?!?! It was right about my ex the whole time.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:39pm
robxsykobabe says:
I wonder how many times Im going to have to hash this out in my mind before I can accept what has happened…its gettign exhausting and I think my family getting tired of ‘processing’ this with me…they knew it well before I even considered what was going on.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 2:53pm
recovering says:
robxsykobabe: Major issues that created confusion started happening about 6 months into my 1.5 year relationship.
It took me a year to emotionally process and let out most of my anger and rage/pain (I gave most of it directly back to my ex) — enough for me to get to a point that I gave up hope on the relationship.
It took all that suffering through non-sense, which included breaking up and reconciling several times over that period, because I was truly in the “dark” about the real, underlying issue/s.
Only when I could intellectually and mentally/emotionally connect the dots about N/S personality disorders did I realize the man I dated was way beyond my reach to nurture a healthy relationship with.
I gradually no longer took it personally as I understood he was incapable of having a genuine connection with me or anyone else. This knowledge in many ways made it easier for me to let go and give up hoping it might eventually work out.
By the way, we’re both trained in the same field as counselors, so we might have a harder time than many in ridding ourselves of the notion that some people can’t change.
Now, I finally get it.
As far as your family, of course they would know before you even considered what was going on — but you were the one in the relationship. You know how easy it is to be objective when a situation isn’t personal.
Believe me, family members also have their own blind spots in certain areas that you can likely see more clearly than them, as you know.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 4:42pm
justabouthealed says:
robxsykobabe:
I haven’t read all the posts but what really helped me was to write out my paradigm shift. (A paradigm shift has become more common in vocabulary now, but it is a big shift in thinking. Like from thinking the sun revolved around the earth, to understanding the earth revolves around the sun. ) So I wrote out in detail what I used to think the P/S/N was like, what was wonderful about him , his tiny faults, etc, to what I now realize…all his horrible traits and his tiny good points. When I saw in black and white what a 360 degree shift in thinking I had to go through, I understood better why I had to re-process it so many times, re-think it so many times. If you found out Mother Theresa was actually a child molester, you’d have to re-think that a few times too! The change was that dramatic for me.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 5:27pm
robxsykobabe says:
Recovering:
Well, this is a very nice surprise, as I think sometimes because I am a therapist, the expectation is that I will just KNOW things or SEE things. In reality, I think its the opposite.
Is it possible for him to have loved me, I mean genuinely loved me at one time? He and his mother would tell me often “you dont know how much I fight to keep the good (name) in front. It’s a daily battle.” I wonder this…is it possible for him to have made conscientious choices to ‘do good’, only to have ‘reverted’ to his ‘true’ self because that ’self’ worked so much easier for him? Once he was in the mode of that ‘bad’ self, it was like an object in motion? Unstoppable or VERY difficult to stop?
Once his skeletons began coming out of the closet, in order for him to ’safe face’, it seemed as though he reverted to past pattersn of behavior…lying and manipulating in particular. Could it be that once his ‘past’ had become exposed, and because of an inability to TELL THE TRUTH, he digressed and that ‘bad’ self took over…which would be his REAL self in essence?
Even if Im totally wrong, for one second as I wrote this I seemed to feel better…thanks so much Recovering…you dont even know how helpful you are!
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 5:33pm
robxsykobabe says:
Just about healed:
I have done this! In fact, when we broke up initially, I did this as it works well with my clients. I wrote about 4 pages worth of ‘reminders’ of all the assinine things he did and referred back to it ALOT…in fact, I still do, and have added more and more things to it!
Im not quite there yet and sometimes the thought of pulling my notepad out, re-reading it, and swallowing it is overbearing…so I avoid it. Other times, when Im pissed to no end, I read it, and read it, and read it…then I get mad and Im okay…
Thank you, this is good to know others really do use it too
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 5:37pm
recovering says:
robxsykobabe: I’ve learned from reading here that there are nurses, therapists and others in helping professions. It would be interesting to know what this means, if anything. There are also lawyers and journalists (journalism is my previous career area) who’ve blogged here.
In terms of whether he loved you, I became convinced by what so many others have shared here — that these N/S people are unable to fully see/hear others as individuals (they view people as extensions of themselves or prey, and feel they are above us normal humans).
I would never presume to know whether someone else’s relationship had genuine love or not, but I do think there is a clear lack of empathy going on with these disordered people. I don’t think they even love themselves.
There are a lot of articles on this site that address this topic, because one issue that comes up for so many people is whether their ex is able to love a new person after the end of a relationship.
Based on my experience, I think the N/S are operating from such a different worldview that it is impossible to know what they think, believe or feel from a normal person’s perspective. They are balls of confusion, both for themselves and others.
My ex still tells me he loves me (when we talk occasionally). I am not moved by it at all.
I think that even if we don’t love someone, the degree of harm these people do for no apparent or good reason (outcomes for them or another) definitely suggests they are incapable of empathy and basic decency on many levels.
In a previous relationship I had (with my son’s father) before I met my N/S ex, there was a lack of closeness and he sometimes lied (related more to financial irresponsibility), but it never rose to the level of emotional abuse, gaslighting and other straight-up confusion and routine non-sense that I experienced with the N/S.
So your guess is as good as mine. There are some excellent books on these people in case you have not already read them:
Without Conscience: The Disturbing World of Psychopaths Among Us
The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists
Why is it always about you? (not sure if title is exact)
The Sociopath Next Door
The Betrayal Bond (about trauma bonding)– Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships
And many more: Mary Jo Buttafucco’s book is excellent; old Alfred Hitchcock movies explore sociopathic men and women in everyday life situations — just amazing how deep Hitchcock was, in addition to being humorous.
I can tell you I don’t want to experience another personal relationship with one of these creatures, but I am becoming a better therapist/healer (a wounded healer who is recovering from family-of-origin/co-dependency stuff I had been working on over 20 years — and the N/S experience helped uncover other things at a deeper level) because of it.
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 6:00pm
muldoon. says:
read that and its brilliant…Im in crisis again but this time its my own fault…I had to come back for more and now I live a half arsed life, where I am no longer me..I am unfeeling and cold..dead..and today its kicked off again..amnd because I dont react and jst ignore hiom he has been in bed since 7pm…I could scream…
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 6:06pm
ErinBrock says:
Muldoon:
The ex s’s psychologist told me……
EB….you know the facts here…and he’s NOT going to change.
You just keep on touching the hot stove and getting burned.
Muldoon…..you know the facts…..and I’m gonna ask you again…..
WHAT IS YOUR LIFE WORTH???
What kind of mother do you wish to be????
(and are you that woman?)
It’s up to YOU to break the cycle.
UP TO YOU!!!!
There is NO WAY possible your going to ‘make it better’….your going to extend the enevitable.
BUT…..the more time you let pass, you will have less resources to work with. Emotionally and financially and backing/support from your family, friends, neighbors, kids etc…
Trust me….I tried every door, angle, opening, change, improvement, digression…..and the only thing that made a difference…..WAS BOOTING HIM FROM MY LIFE!!!!!
You have kids to be a mother too? You need to show them the meaning of love…..not abusive treatment from a spouse…..Do you want them entering into the same type of relationship they have been shown an example of?????
I THINK NOT!
PAY ATTENTION HERE>>…..
GET THE HELL OUT!!!!!!
I care, I’m concerned and there is no way you can avoid what you are living by staying there.
NO WAY!!!
Only you can make this choice…..CHOOSE A BETTER LIFE!!!!
XXOO
EB
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Thursday, 31 December 2009 @ 6:26pm
pollyannanomore says:
Recovering …
you HAVE to get the book Women who Love Psychopaths (I think I should have some sort of associate selling deal – I can’t stop recommending it lol) It spells out in intricate detail the types of women who get involved with psychos and there are definite elements that are very very common …
You are spot on about the helping professions – if we go into this type of work, we are far more empathic than the regular population. We also have other traits that are likely to make us stick around the P when things get bad – think patience, tolerance, hope, support, e ncouragement. So because of the traits we are attracted to this type of work and then the work and training reinforces and grows the traits. I downloaded an ecopy so I will have a quick look to find a small excerpt to post. You can buy the book (both electronic and paper) at this site or at Sandra Brown’s site. Dr Liane Leedom who posts here co-authored and the research is incredible.
“Our survey found the temperament traits elevated in women who love
psychopaths are:
1. Extraversion and excitement-seeking
2. Relationship investment and positive sociability
3. Sentimentality
4. Attachment
5. Competitiveness
6. Concern for having others‘ high regard
7. Harm avoidance”
Brown, S. (2009). Women who love psychopaths. Page 104
Each of those traits is broken down individually in great detail to explain how it supports the sick relationship.
This quote is about professions and comes from page 104 and 105
“Her Extraversion52
The women who love psychopaths overwhelmingly tested as
extraverted, which wasn‘t surprising. Those I have worked with are mostly gregarious and powerful women! Most are highly educated or have done well in their own line of work—successful by anyone‘s standards. The average woman in the survey had a minimum of a Bachelor‘s Degree or higher. Many are professionally trained as:
Attorneys
Doctors
Therapists or social workers
Female clergy
Nurses or other medical professionals
Teachers or professors
Editors
CEOs of companies
Non-profit agency directors
These are a formidable group of women who have knowledge, education, and strength. Before the psychopath landed in their lives, they were financially secure or successful in their field or school, had good self-esteem, goal direction and competitive attitudes. How does the women‘s own extraversion influence how they ended up in a relationship with a psychopath?”
This passage explains the cue reading on page 116 …
” Her Social Sensitivity
These women are also socially sensitive. They are sensitive to the needs of others which explained why they were so sensitive to the needs of a psychopath. They are sensitive to environmental and emotional cues about other people and can pick up when others are hurt or wounded by an
act or something said. Many psychopaths play the ‗empathy‘ card early in the luring stage. Picking up on a woman‘s hyper-empathy, they use their chameleon tendencies to morph into whatever she is. If she is hyperempathic then she needs something to empathize with. Quickly the psychopath has the sad story for her to connect to–his abusive childhood, his wife who runs around, his lost job, his stolen opportunity, his children he never gets to see. Her ability to hyper-focus on the needs of others puts the psychopath dead center as the recipient of her social sensitivity.”
I strongly recommend everyone read this book – it points out both our strengths and weaknesses and is important in learning how to go out safely into the world so we never experience this kind of relationship again.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:40pm
recovering says:
pollyannanomore — ok, this sounds like something I’ll definitely want to explore more in depth.
Thanks for the info, and Happy New Year.
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Friday, 1 January 2010 @ 9:53pm
henry says:
I am not a women so i have not read that book about loving sociopaths. But have often thot it might also apply to men. But the traits you have shown make it obvious I dont love them, just feel sorry for them. If I went to a homeless shelter I would prolly bring most of them home with me. The sociopathic ones any who. So I have blinder’s on when it comes to the needy, just like I no longer rescue stray dogs, I just cant afford to feed them or care for them.
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 2:03am
pollyannanomore says:
Henry I would be willing to bet the traits are very similar for men – it is a pity they didn’t do a chapter on same sex relationships as well in the re edit – there would be similar dynamics but with an added layer of context and culture. Do you recognise those traits within yourself or are there some differences?
I so know where you are coming from re the stray pets – I seem to be a magnet for them. If there is a dog that has e scaped it’s yard or a kitten wandering on the road, you can guarantee I will come in contact with them and take them home till their owner’s or a new home can be found. I am the Princess of Strays lol. In fact just tonight I was walking my dogs at the park and found a little white rabbit nestling in the periphery. I took the pooches home and prepped a box with newspapers and blankets, grabbed some gloves and cabbage leaves and carrots and was all set to go back and bring it with me as the heavens had opened and it was pouring down. But when I got back it was gone – probably a pet rabbit that got through a fence – was a bit of relief for me! Last time I did a park rescue it was an injured bird and I picked it up, spent ages negotiating with a shelter and finally got a vet to agree to see it. I flew in the car with it in a box and it died on the way unfortunately. I cried for a good few hours after that – even though the vet was very kind and said it was shock and it would have died anyway.
I think it’s ok to rescue as long as we don’t actually keep them. I will still pick up wandering animals (well not big dangerous dogs!) if I see them – my conscience won’t let me do otherwise – fortunately I don’t seem to be meeting as many lately
PS the book is worth reading anyway – only about two chapters are devoted to women’s traits – the rest focusses on the traits and behaviours of the psychopaths and the dynamics that occur in the relationship – it’s a fascinating read. I read it in one go – just was glued to the screen for hours!
Hope your New Year is off to a flying start! And you make a good point – it won’t kill any of us to remain single for a few years
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 6:28am
OxDrover says:
DearEB,
Your above post to Muldoon wins the first “Silver Cast iron Skillet AWARD for 2010.” Good Advice!
I had a GREAT New year’s Pity Party and head banging marathon, but I am back to myself now, I have literally worn out a 10 inch skillet, beat a hole through the bottom on MY OWN HEAD, which is now flat and cracked but functioning much better. I smashed my ROSY COLORED glasses as welll, and I hope I never get stooo-pid enough to ever put on another pair.
It is AMAZING how much we can work at denial, excuses, and trivalizing other’s bad behavior just because we love these “people” (to use the word losely) or we over look dysfunction in Non-Ps that is just about as toxic to us, whew! But, I am turning over a new leaf in 2010.
MY FARM IS NOW THE LIAR-FREE ZONE, and my rosy colored glasses are smashed to pieces, and I am armed to the teeth with a skillet in each hand, and a Bowie Knife in my teeth, with my sheeet stomping kick arse boots on and I don’t care who the SOB is, I don’t tolerate liars and I ain’t a gonna cry over no more of the f’s either! So there ! Take THAT!!! Now all you liars get gone or I will sic the hound dogs on your sorry butts and BOINK you on the haid with two skillits.!!! LOL
Happy New Year to us all, and a PSYCHOPATH-FREE year for us all, and try out Oxy’s new brand of NO- MORE TEARS LOTION, just rub it on a psychopath and they vanish and you don’t have to cry any more.!!! (((Hugs)))) and prayers for you all, your prayers worked for me! Thanks to you all!
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Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 11:28pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsykobabe – you wrote:
‘… only to have ‘reverted’ to his ‘true’ self because that ’self’ worked so much easier for him?’
with me, the ’sweet boy’ character was SOOOOO kind, and i htink with the rest of the folks who ‘he’ was connecting with. I remember thinking that this must have been a HUGE burden for the spath to be this nice (and intelligent and articulate) and to so many for so long – the latest characters she brought to the fore were NOT nice. mean, threatening, histrionic, poorly spoken, manipulative, gas lighting, stupid, etc.
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Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 1:57am
justabouthealed says:
I wanted to comment on closure. I saw on another website that in order to be able to get closure WITH another person, through talking to them, the other person must
1. have a reasonable degree of sanity
2. have foot hold in reality
3. have empathy.
Well, that is another reason No Contact is the answer….these guys don’t qualify a person with whom closure is possible.
I got my closure by moving permanently (finally) from the victim role to feeling in control of my life again.
Finally.
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Monday, 11 January 2010 @ 3:38pm
recovering says:
justabouthealed — I so relate to the point you make: “I got my closure by moving permanently (finally) from the victim role to feeling in control of my life again.”
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Monday, 11 January 2010 @ 9:13pm
myboysmattermost says:
I have recently initiated No Contact after finding this board. I ignored his phone calls and he emailed this:
“Now I am sure you are and have been cheating on me. All you wanted was for me to leave. I loved and fathered your son for most of his life. In return you took my son away from me.. You are truly sick and need help. How could you do this to everyones lives?”
Now my phone is ringing and ringing and ringing with his number. He has not emailed again so I am sure he has nothing nice to say, which I could use against him…
I imagine it gets worse before it gets better but what are the chances he will get angry enough to come and hurt me or the boys? He is currently out of state but…I have changed the locks, alerted neighbors and schools and have a safe place to flee to if necessary…I also have the local judge ready to issue a mental arrest warrant if he shows up before the divorce with the Order of Protection is in place…what if he sends a “friend” to “punish” me for divorcing him??
How long does No Contact take in your experience until he realizes I am truly done with him?
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 11:23pm
witsend says:
myboysmattermost,
Many S/P/N don’t have a very long attention span. These types often find a new victim in a short period of time. However there are also those that will continue to harass for longer periods of time.
Hopefully you know him well enough to know if you should fear for you and your kids.
If you SENSE any kind of danger go with your gut because you know him best.
And do whatever necessary, even if you feel you might be a little paranoid at the time. If you feel you should go away for a few days, do that. Better to be safe than sorry later.
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Monday, 18 January 2010 @ 11:46pm
hens says:
Myboysmattermost – I would suggest changing phone numbers and emal address. They have no limts and will continue their ‘dance’ as long as you participate. No contact is your only weapon and your ultimate salvation. Witsend is right they will move on to ‘fresh victims’ that have not seen through their mask as you have. But watch your back and you are doing the right thing by being prepared for the worse. But time is on your side, they get bored fast when you dont play with them…no contact 100% forever…
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 12:58am
pollyannanomore says:
Excellent point JAH on closure …
“the other person must
1. have a reasonable degree of sanity
2. have foot hold in reality
3. have empathy.”
Sanity? Nope
Reality? Nope
Empathy? Resounding nope
Not possible for us to get it from them – we have to take it for ourselves with NC as you rightly say. I still struggle with this though – still want him to admit all the wrongs and make up for them – it’s wishful thinking though at its best.
This reminded me of the steps needed for a sincere apology … how many times did we hear “I’m sorry” and then they’d go stomp on our hearts again?
A well-done apology involves at least four parts: acknowledgement, explanation, expression of remorse and reparation. I would also add to that the promise to never do the offending action again. Socios think they can get away with two simple words … and they often do.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:05am
icanseeclearlynow says:
myboysmattermost – A ceaselessly ringing phone can drive you insane. Been there. How about unplugging it for the time being and getting yourself a cheap pay-as-you-go cell phone? That way you have no contract, no name on your cell phone to trace and you keep it on you and charged at ALL times and only tell those who are WITHOUT QUESTION COMPLETELY TRUSTWORTHY the number. If that’s only one person, than so be it.
As for how long it takes them to realize you are truly done – I have no idea. It’s true they have short attention spans, but then again they are also obsessive and NEVER LET GO to a degree. I am having that issue with the one I was with. It’s been almost 3 months now of absolute NC with him and he is still brewing and obsessing about me. It is creepy as hell.
(((HUGS)))
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 1:30am
ErinBrock says:
MyBoys:
Did I read it correctly….you have an order of protection?
If so……REPORT THE EMAILS AND CALLS…..it’s a violation.
He is to have NO CONTACT with you with an Protection order.
The police won’t arrest him…..but a report is made…..and a paper trail presents.
I took pics of the phone to document time and date of all calls….if he’s calling incesantly….document it all.
Only you can judge his volitility level…..from my experience….it is about the threats to you only…..I believe veyr few follow through and enjoy knowing they can control you even from afar….this is the whole reason you must report everything….
Start a notebook…..3 ring binder and print all emails and photos and keep notes of dates/times/ statements….
When you file a police report, make a copy for YOUR records….get the officers card and badge number.
This will aid when you go back to court for an extension…..whether it’s next month or in a year.
You need to ‘build’ your own case…..and present it factually showing all details.
ALSO……I was unaware of this…..but after the S got out of prosecution of one arrest for a violation where he showed up at our home and sat in the driveway…..but since it was 10:30 at night and he has tinted windows we couldnt IDENTIFY him…..like….he was wearing a blue shirt and yankees cap……
the DA dismissed it IN COURT…..BUT…the DA did advise me to obtain a stalking and harassment order IN ADDITION to an extended order of protection against DV I already had in place.
To the ‘normal’ person….If someone gained a TPO against me….that would be beyond enough to cut ties with them, so it seemed weird to ‘layer’ up on the restraining orders…..but that was what shut him away…..HE KNEW I MEANT business….
You must follow through on ANYTHING you do……once you go down the road….KEEP GOING…..its like raising kids….if you threaten them with no dessert…..ya gotta withhold it until their vegies are eaten…..if not, they know your bullshitting them and they’ll test you to the hilt.
I suggest arming yourself with a few things…..
A digi recorder….record all messages he leaves…..
A digi camera…..photograph the caller ID shoing date adn time and number called from.
I alwyas kept the two handy at all times……
I’ts a LOOONNNGGGG process…..but it does ‘end’ at some point…..and like others have said……as long as they can find a new victim….they do lose interest….but they may come back when new supply ends……like a bad storm..
Evaluate how he ticked and figure out his behaviors and when/how he ooperates……and it should give you the insight into what your dealing with.
Like the S always made threats to others….I’m gonna kick his ass, yada yada…..BUT I NEVER knew him to follow through…..I always lived in fear of a liability lawsuit….and funny enough the last 3 years….I even bought a 5 milion umbrella policy.
The reality is…..he never followed through…..he just talked the big talk……I feel confident about this now…..and so this is how i proceed with such big balls…….cautiously….but confidently. AND I have the law on my side…..I had his cronies show up at my house for a garage sale and I went after them telling them to get the hell OFF my property, they were to NEVER STEP foot on my property. I was very ballsy and used forceful unexpected to them posturing…..(counter control) with emphasis…..and you should have seen them back right up and back into their car. They thought they could intimidate me….didn’t work!
I WON”T LIVE IN FEAR!!!!
But, I do have my security in place….camera’s, motion lights etc…..I have had a few attempted break ins in the past year and I go out and go rambo.
When I think he’s ‘local’, I call the police and have them put my house on a watch. The police do drive by here regularly……and I LIKE THAT!!!
So…..keep yourself safe…..make wise decisions for YOu and kids and DO NOT LET HIM HAVE POWER OVER YOUR LIFE!!!!
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 3:26am
bopeep says:
Dear Lil & Jofary….I have been fighting for a year after 4 1/2 years of being with this “S” criminal. Today is the first day of my business of 21 years not being opened….ever again. I could not keep up with the bills any longer and with him filing things in court against my corp. means lawyers and money I couldnt keep up but I did try really hard. I now live in a hotel with my children and I will for the first time be going down to government for services like food, shelter,and what ever else they can do for me. I do have the FBI involved but it is such a slow process because there are many victims of this pig so they have alot of work. I am scared…but I have to trust God will help me…I just want peace in my life and I have learned alot from Oxdrover. Just a hug from me to both of you and to let you know you are not alone….
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:00am
ErinBrock says:
Bopeep.
My heart is with you…..I’m sorry for your pain and sadness.
Please remain strong and hopeful for a better tomorrow.
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 11:51am
Renewedhope says:
My story with my sociopathic exlover/”Friend” has been 27 years in the making! She is 15 years older than I am. She is proof positive that a lepoard never changes her spots. I will post the three times she hurt me in a love relationship because that is where she hurt me. As a friend she wasn’t too coniving so long as we were seperated by the miles. But. She drew me in 3 times. This past time several weeks ago for 2 months I should not have been because I am married. She almost helped me break up my 14 year marriage.
So here is what she did to me 3 different times over 27 years.
1983-
I met “Queenie” at a card game one night at a friends house. She was everything I always wanted in a woman. She had dark hair and the most beautiful blue eyes i ever saw. She was 15 years my senior however but that never mattered to me. Her smile melted me. She was reserved yet sweet. Or at least I thought. Anyway this woman had already had a sorted past when I met her. She had already been married and divorced to 3 different men and lived with another before “Turning Gay” just before I met her. She actually helped me get off the streets of Phoenix and she took me to her home and let me hang out with her. Immediately however she started giving me orders to do things for her. Household chores and outdoor maintenance. I felt like a houseboy. One night she had a friend over and they stayed in her room. They made noises like they were having sex. i was devastated.(I later learned from the friend that they never did anything together. That this was just a game to hurt me). One week later I flew back home to the Midwest with my tail between my legs. I kept Queenies number but heartache Number #1 was etched into my heart.
1993-
It had been ten years. but I remained friends with Queenie via the phone and letters.I had just gotten my second divorce when I picked up the phone and called Queenie to tell her. “I always wondered why you and I never got together?” She said. That was all it took. I missed the desert Southwest anyway and wanted to go back there to live. In the 6 weeks leading up to my return, Queenie had gotten my dreams and hopes up. She sent me pictures of wedding rings sets circled to the ones she liked. This made me think she wanted to marry me if everything worked out. We made small plans for the future. We spent hours on the phone talking romance and love. The day finally came and I flew to Phoenix. She waited for me to get off the plane but instead of the long awaited embrace and kisses I longed for, she seemed distant right off the bat. (And agitated)Again when got to her house I immediately got placed back into the houseboy role. Doing things for her. Everything from body massages to cutting her lawn. Then she persuaded me into going back to school so that I could get the student loan money. I also had to get a job and did so as a unlicened guard. I never saw her except for a few hours in the day and slept next to her at night. There was never the hint of sex. She seemed like an iceberg. I was becoming very depressed and unhappy. She started telling me that I was “Smothering her” How? I was the one being dominated. Finally one evening we made love. She seemed very uncomforable and never relaxed enough to enjoy it. Everything got worse from there. In the weeks ahead she started becoming more secretive. She then told me that her mother was ill in Florida and would I watch her house and dogs for her while she was away? I never once said “no” to this woman. While she was in Florida, the days went by and she hardly called. I missed her and couldn’t understand why she wasn’t calling. I called her after a week and she read me the riot act for calling her. I started getting suspicious. I started looking for letters and found what I didn’t want to see right under her side of the bed. Apparently she had found a new love-a lesbian lover. they had been writing letters to each other as I found several. That last one discussed their plans. Queenie was to fly from her mother’s home in Florida to California to be with this woman. In essence: She flew right over my head in Phoenix! A few days later I got the dreaded call that she had found someone else and that I was to vacate the house on a certain day because she was coming home with her new lover. I was again just devastated. I couldn’t understand how anyone could be so cold and calculating and not feel remorse for it. But she had NONE
.
2009-October.
Leading up to a few months ago, Queenie was just a distant friend. She had done some things for me that just kept me believing she cared about me. After i broke up with her in 1993 it took me 3 years before I started dating again. that was when I finally met the one true love in my life, my wife. Sandy and I dated for only 3 months in 1996 before we flew to Vegas and go married. The next 14 years to now have been pleasant. While we have had our share of problems we have always been close. No one had ever got between us. That is, until Queenie re-entered the picture in October of 2009.
Queenie is now 67 years old. She has maintained a non sexual relationship with a lesbian woman for 14 years now as well. I still remained “friends” with Queenie. She had always given me good advice on certain things. I got sick with bronchitis in November and she sent me a box of meds to help me recuperate. I don’t want to say she never helped me out but she showed just enough to keep the friendship afloat and me interested however remotely.
In November she told me that she thought she was dying. I had no reason to doubt her since she had surgery last year and did NOT quite recover from it as she should have. These feelings started to reappear again after she told me she thought she was going to die. I had to tell her that I still loved her and I always had..just repressed them because I had gone on with me life these past 14 years. I truly didn’t expect anything to happen after I told her. I was after all, married. Well she took my feelings and ran with it! Telling me that she “loved me too!”. Thus starting another long distance emotional affair. We talked of romance and love in emails and the phone. She however the pro that she is-limited herself to telling me she loved exclusively on the phone only. So no paper trail via the computer. I am about to come into several thousand dollars from Dad’s estate and she knew this several months ago. I believe now that she worked me. She never had to ask me for anything.. just SUGGEST certain things like. “I need a new mattress set. “”I need X amount of dollars to bail me out of the financial jam I am in..”" I need an upgrade to my computer..” I just verbally committed myself almost before she got it out of her mouth. True to form of a average Sociopath she began to get bored being snowed in up North where she lives. As the last few weeks went by she started getting more aggressive and more verbally abusive to me on the phone. We had reached a point where we decided we would not be lovers but would be friends. I still worried about her health and wanted her to call me everyday or at least every several days. Come to find out she was lying about her health too. “I am going to be care taking a friend of mine when she has knee surgery”. I asked her what is she doing taking care of someone else if she is supposedly dying? She told me again that I was” smothering” her and then two weeks ago on the phone told me that no she wasn’t going to call me or answer any emails if she didn’t feel like it. I told her then why am I supposed to go up there in a few weeks and do everything for you like put in a garden and spend $2,500 on of my dad’s inheritance on you when you can’t even act like a friend to me? I told her 2 days later in an email that I did the research and found her to have anti social personality disorder(sociopath) and that I never want to hear from her again. To lose my email and my phone number. She answered me in one small sentence:”Yes, and do NOT contact me again.” So that was it. The culmination of 27 years worth of abuse and unhappiness and disapointment. I would have ended it years ago had I known there was no hope for her to change. There just isn’t any hope for these people. They are all too self serving and narcissistic. To think i almost threw away the best wife I could ever have over a slimey, skanky, mentally disturbed woman who, could never be mine. Thank God she got bored too before the estate cleared probate. I have no doubt she has moved onto someone else who has offered her more. That is her M.O. I am thanking God for such a sweet and forgiving wife who saw me through this recent emotional affair. While she has forgiven me I have yet to forgive myself even though the affair was NOT sexual. This sociopath has had my heart and shredded it for 27 years now. I now know that the only way to “get over her” is to stay the Hell away from her. She is poison to me.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 2:58pm
pollyannanomore says:
Renewed hope – I am sorry you went through so many yrs of pain and disappointment with this woman. They are incredibly manipulative and can make us do anything they want. I hope you are healing from this and through reading more can learn to forgive yourself – you had good intentions in mind while this woman just wanted to fleece you. No contact is definitely the safest route for all of us here.
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 4:41pm
Renewedhope says:
Yes after all this time of not knowing who or what I was dealing with-I now know she is a dyed in the wool sociopath! There will never be any hope for her since she had no feelings of love or empathy. In fact. I am reminded one time during the 93 episode when i was laying next to her in bed with my back turned to her and half asleep I heard her whisper the words ,”I Hate You!” under her breath. Not knowing for sure she was awake or asleep. But her voice didn’t sound like she was asleep. A few months ago I brought up that time and she acted as if I was talking about someone else! As if she never said it!
Believe me right now I am counting my lucky stars that she is out of my life!
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Tuesday, 19 January 2010 @ 6:24pm
hopeful6596 says:
I am new on this site. I was involved with a sociopath for a year, 6 months the first time, broken up for 3 months, and then foolishly back together for another 6. He’s 39, although he lies about his age on all his dating/social networking sites, and hasn’t been able to keep a job, having been fired from his last job. After grad school at age 33, he was homeless and was a “squatter” for a while. His girlfriend at the time gave him money every day. This man is the most phenomenal liar I have ever met. He’s extremely outgoing, charming and well-educated. To attempt to make a long story short, he had me believing that I was in a real relationship, yet he was lying and cheating horribly. When I finally found out from his computer emails, I could not believe the extent this man goes to lie, and how good he is at it. From all the information on his computer, I could see all the times he called me and told me he was somewhere, when he was actually with someone else. He was actually telling one woman that he loved her, and yet he was cheating on her too, with me and all the others! He would be taunting me without me even realizing it. When we first broke up, he called me a week later and told me had had made a terrible mistake and that he couldn’t give something like this up. A week later, I found out the whole thing was a big lie, and I just couldn’t believe it. He knew I was devastated when we broke up, and yet he still called me to tell me had made a terrible mistake, knowing he was lying and cheating. We then broke up for 3 months. We got back together and he talked about wanting to do “something different” than what we had done the first time. He said he wanted to build trust. He told me that he wasn’t interested in any other woman. I gave him a book to read, that I also read. Throughout the book, the author stresses that partners need to “feel safe” with their partners. So, one night, he calls me and says that we should take the weekend to really think about what we need from one another. I was confused an didn’t understand why we needed to take the weekend apart. It was a Friday night and he said he was going to a party and I wasn’t invited. I was upset about it and he said that he was telling me we needed to think seriously about what it is we need from one another and he said that he was telling me because he wanted me to “feel safe” with him, using the exact language from the book. He showed up at my house at 2am that evening, drunk, and fell asleep. I found text messages to two women inviting them to this party. While he slept, I called and left messages for both women inviting them to call me if they were inclined. Now, one of the women, he had programmed into his contacts as “dad.” I remember that when he was wanting me to trust him more, he would show me he was getting a phone call and it said “dad.” He would say, “See? It’s my father.” He wouldn’t answer the call in my presence and he would say that he was talking to his “dad” a lot lately since he was trying to process their troubled relationship. What a liar! It was this other woman. Anyway, I woke him up and told him what I found and he grabbed the phone away from me> I told him to leave at least 8 times and he swore at me. I was sobbing and do you know what he did? He fell asleep and was snoring in no time. I called the police and had him get a cab a go home. In the morning, both women called me and I found out just what a disturbed liar he is. I also had the occasion to speak with a male friend who had known him for 12 years and he said that my ex was always a shameless womanizer. My ex denied this and insists that he has been faithful with women. He told me he learned his lesson and was going to therapy and wouldn’t be dating for a long time. He wanted me to still hang out with him, and insisted he wouldn’t be sleeping with anyone else, since he had a lot of “work” to do on himself. Now, as an aside, the first time we broke up he said the same thing and he admitted when we got back together that it was a lie and he never went. Anyway, I have found out that he never went to therapy this time either and he met someone else shortly after we broke up–so much for not dating and working on himself– and he even spent the holidays with her family. Her family is fairly well-off and her father is a doctor. I am devastated because he even got off the site he was using to cheat on me. This guy’s behavior has been so pathological, and I am devastated thinking that he is really changed with her. Intellectually, I know this isn’t possible, but I am still devastated and filled with anxiety. He is such a parasite. I can see him latching on to someone with a well-off family, when he decides he wants to be taken care of. Can someone offer words of advice? I am so fixated on this other relationship he is having and the thought he is a “different person” with her.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 12:07am
Renewedhope says:
Sounds like your relationship with your ex was the same as mine. WE were the only ones taking part in the relationship! They just kept us interested enough to use us. I know you are like me and that you still feel “Love” and a Tie to a unrequited love. But remember please! They can’t feel love! They don’t have any empathy. But most importantly, they don’t respect us at all otherwise they wouldn’t do what they did to us. They will do it to you 1000 times if you let them! My advice to you is the same that I am taking: Carry on with your life and try to forget this leech! You deserve alot better!
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 12:21am
hopeful6596 says:
Renewed Hope,
Thanks for your kind comment. Yes. I was the only one doing the work, but he was good at making me feel like he was really in it and really trying. I just thought he was a man with some intimacy issues. I’m telling you, this man is phenomenal liar. I don’t know why it is important for me to hear that he isn’t going to be “different” with this woman, but it IS, and that is, unfortunately, where I’m at. I really feel traumatized.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 12:38am
ErinBrock says:
A person of whom we can FIX!
Take this into the future………
RED FLAG, RED FLAG, RED FLAG
Hopeful…..don’t worry or judge yourself about what/where/when…..we all seem to need some answers of sorts…..or clarity ……because there seems to be as many answers as months/years we were with the S.
Some things we can figure out/ or put together…..some we may never know and must accept as ‘is’.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 12:46am
ErinBrock says:
DAD? Oh….good one!
What a sleeze!
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 12:52am
hopeful6596 says:
Erin Brock,
I know—”dad” — He’s clever, isn’t he? And here I am worried about a guy like that being able to change.
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Wednesday, 20 January 2010 @ 1:11am
ErinBrock says:
Red Flags. According to Dr. Carver
http://www.loserrx.com/flags/
Were you the ‘love of their life’, their ‘soulmate’ or new best friend within weeks?
Were they initially charming, saying all the right things, “mirroring” your hopes, desires, and feelings?
Are they jealous and possessive?
Do they have few friends or long-term relationships?
Multiple failed relationships?
Do they badmouth their ex or other friends?
Do they tell lies, big and small?
Does the relationship veer from hot to cold? Do they “Jekyll and Hyde”?
Do they have an unstable work history, frequent unemployment or
job changes?
Do you find yourself “covering” for them, making them appear better than they really are?
Do they have constant financial problems?
Are people mad at them because they don’t honor their debts?
Do they have a lack of realistic goals? A history of living off others?
Are they comfortable taking money from you?
Have they ever used your credit cards without your knowledge?
Do they make you feel guilty about your outside interests, time spent with friends or family?
Do they make you feel you’re not good enough, that you’re lucky to
have them?
Have they ever humiliated you in public?
Do they withdraw love, friendship or approval as punishment?
Do they have a bad temper triggered by something seemingly insignificant? Do you often not even know what set them off?
Do they always shift blame onto you? Is whatever’s wrong always your fault?
After raging, do they act like nothing at all has happened?
Do you ever feel “smothered” by them?
Do they ever threaten, hit or shove you, punch walls, break your things or call you names?
Are they always on the “outs” with someone?
Do they pressure you to quit or change jobs/friends/relationships/homes?
Do they have problems with authority figures?
Stalked anyone for any reason whatsoever?
Have they had Restraining Orders?
Is your self-esteem eroding?
Do you sometimes feel you’re the crazy one?
Is the relationship affecting other aspects of your life?
Do you have a gut, “sick” sense that things just aren’t right?
Do you sometimes wish it would just all “go away”?
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:23pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE MORE THAN ONE PERSON ONLINE?
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE SIX PEOPLE ONLINE?
ARE THEY CONSTANTLY DYING?
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE A CARING PERSON?
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE A PERSON?
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE THEIR OWN JEALOUS BOYFRIEND?
IF THEIR OWN JEALOUS BOYFRIEND AGRESSIVE AND ANGRY WITH YOU?
ARE THEY PRETENDING TO BE A MALE/FEMALE WHEN THEY ARE REALLY A FEMALE/MALE?
DO THEY PRETEND TO BE PROTECTING ONE OF THEIR UNREAL SELVES FROM YOU?
DO THEY PRETEND TO BE FAMOUS PEOPLE?
DO THEY STEAL THE PHOTOS AND LIVES OF FAMOUS PEOPLE?
DO YOU WISH THEY WOULD JUST @#$%^&* DIE?
YES?
THEY ARE A SPATH. AND I HAVE ‘THEIR’ ADDRESS.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 9:28pm
ErinBrock says:
I say…..cuz he has something to gain……FUN…..at ex’s expense….
Why buy the horse when you can ride it for free! You don’t have to feed it or house it or groom it…..just get on and have fun.
He’s a ‘hangeroner’ type…..play both sides, keep the peace so it benefits him!
IF he was interested in your kids, he’d be making an effort to ensure their needs were met, or say hey…..come along….were gonna have fun!
Ex is playing along, to win him over…..
Regardless of ‘what you want’……your kids are ‘telling ‘ you….they want nothing to do with that family…..
So……I’d weed your garden of him….he is showing you no respect!
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 10:05pm
ErinBrock says:
Actions vs words…..
Are you ‘hearing’ or seeing?
Ask yourself…..i think you know this answer.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 10:17pm
OxDrover says:
The fact that he pretends to be a “Christian” but doesn’t seem to have a problem with associating with someone who is openly “Not acting like” a Christian, then I would put his tree as having ROTTEN FRUIT and chop down the relationship.
Erin B is right on. Weed your garden of that TARE.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 10:20pm
flowerpower says:
Okay Ladies…got out the roundup!…or the axe… Done.
I had been warned that I would find out who my “true friends” are. He has a wonderful reputation and is a very involved, loving Dad, so I always considered him a friend.
I dont think he is real rotten, I just think he is wants to be everybody’s friend…but don’t you find that cant be when you are in my(our) shoes??
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 10:33pm
ErinBrock says:
NOPE!
My therapist confronted me early on about my use of the word ‘friend’…..
Really brought me awareness on how I considered everyone my friend for the ‘trophy’ of the word……
NOW….I have a handful of friends….good friends….and many aquiantances….
It’s important to know the difference.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 10:36pm
flowerpower says:
Well so true! And yes..I haven’t heard from some of my so called close friends for quite awhile, but its good to know who is a friend.
If any of you have been with a “successful” sp, you know what I mean. They dont lose the friends unless they lose the image…and mine is in serious damage control mode right now…he suffered a few dents in his armor.
I think even the friends who defend him have to justify their loyalty by spreading propaganda. This sounds paranoid except to this group, but I am assuming some of the behavior on this Dads’ behalf is from lies he has heard about me.
That does not excuse his lack of discernment when he knows what happened. But I see so many with the “she was to blame too” mentality. Afterall, the sps are charmers so it couldnt be all their fault.
My sister rang in tonight and said “good riddance” as well. And let him find out for himself. She is a smart one..should have listened to her many times. I will now.
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Monday, 29 March 2010 @ 11:00pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
it has been very grounding to post here tonight.
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Tuesday, 30 March 2010 @ 12:05am
flowerpower says:
one step…
wont they know you wrote them??who else would?
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Tuesday, 30 March 2010 @ 12:16am
one_step_at_a_time says:
delete. delightful feature!
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Tuesday, 30 March 2010 @ 12:21am
ErinBrock says:
I’m glad you had a good night on LF…..
Not sure if your still awake…..I’m getting ready to hit it myself…..
nighty night….to the healing ones……
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Tuesday, 30 March 2010 @ 1:30am