LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Hyper vigilance and PTSD
Editor’s Note: Lovefraud received this story from the member who writes as “Duped.”
In hindsight, I remember questioning the little green things on the dinosaur nuggets he prepared for dinner. I was surprised he’d made the effort, in response to much nagging about not pitching in. It was late and I’d just returned from teaching an evening class. An overload to pay the bills since he quit his job. We had been arguing a lot, or rather me complaining; him not working, cleaning, taking care of the kids or pets and not making so much of an effort as to prepare a meal or help me. I had been working my full-time job teaching, overloaded for extra pay, consulting work for a publisher to generate more income, plus trying to finish my graduate degree in time to make tenure. All this and two children, one his and only a year old. And he never lifted a finger.
Until those dinosaur nuggets with the odd parsley flakes….
Less than two weeks later, he filed a false Protection From Abuse (PFA) order and attempted to have me and my eldest son thrown out of our house (the one I had built from the ground up before I met him) take me for full custody of our one year old son who’d never spent a night without me, and soak me for child support, alimony and half the marital assets (we had been married 11 months) to which he had contributed nothing!
Fortunately, he was unsuccessful. Mostly because of who I am and the life I’ve created for me and my children. In part due to some due diligence. In part, despite my hyper vigilance.
It is hyper vigilance I’d like to address. It’s a nasty side effect of PTSD. I was able to get his PFA turned around and file one against him. I was believable, he was not. I was credible, he was not. I HAD cared for my children, he HAD not. I had NOT been abusive, he HAD. This was relatively easy to demonstrate, although it didn’t feel so at the time. So, while I had him right where I needed him, I still felt panic and fear. I still believed he would be believed. Why not? I had believed him and I’m no sucker!
So, I made an urgent appointment with my doctor to have a drug test. He WAS using drugs. I was NOT. He had accused me of being a drug dealer, when in fact it was his mother who was his supplier, and I felt this burning NEED to prove myself. I got that drug test and believe it or not, they lost the sample. Right then I should have taken a breath and allowed the Universe to work its divine intervention. But NO, I couldn’t do that. I was in the throes of battle. I NEEDED every little piece that would set things right. I HAD to have that drug result to PROVE HIM WRONG. I was DRIVEN and consumed.
I had a second test run right before court and asked the doctor to fax the results to the attorney. I didn’t need to hear the results first. I knew what I had and had not done. It would be negative. And my attorney believed that too, which is why she handed over the results to his attorney without reading them herself. And that’s how I lost the battle.
The results were positive for THC, the intoxicating chemical found in Marijuana. Not possible, until I remembered those parsley flakes in the damn dinosaur chicken nuggets he had served up with a pleased little grin.
And that was when I had to face being my own worst enemy. Hyper vigilance, while once my comrade in a childhood filled with craziness, had become the enemy. No one asked for the drug test and it certainly wasn’t court ordered. I had gone full blown into trying to work every little piece and angle to save me and my children, that I’d opened a cans of worms HE HAD ANTICIPATED! He played my vigilance to his advantage and had won…the battle.
I won the war. Because I am who I am and he is who he is and I didn’t have to make that case. He made it himself, once I tuned down from hyper vigilance to due diligence. I shifted from histrionic to matriarch. My change in posture elicited a change in his. He wasn’t pulling my strings any more. He wasn’t in control any more. I was in control of myself, which gave me far more of a positive influence over the situation. And his facade was shaken, revealing his true colors.
My point is, if you have been the victim of a sociopath, it is most likely you will be and maybe still are suffering from PTSD. With that comes the nasty black cloud of hyper vigilance. It’s exhausting, unproductive and ultimately leaves one angry and disappointed with themselves and actions. If you’re in the throws of situating your life in the wake of a sick or evil person, stop and take a deep breath. Ask yourself if what you’re doing is for the right reasons, makes sense and will take you in a direction that will raise you up, not bring you down.
Are you reacting because the situation REQUIRES it? Or are you reacting because you’re DRIVEN to? I ask myself these questions with regularity and find I’m a happier, more relaxed and better focused person, mother and professional.
Namaste
Duped
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OxDrover says:
Dear Duped,
You are an excellent writer, and your points are also right on as well as expressed very well.
Thanks for this excellent contribution to the LF articles and archives!
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 12:17pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Wow—I did not know that on pot….that is interesting. You can eat/digest that w/o knowing you got any of it….I mean no effects? And it would still show up weeks later? Looks like there would be some type of effect or reaction.
That is something else……
that someone would feed you that stuff too…is scary. Being the ‘paranoid’ person I am….I would never have eating those ‘nuggets’. I move on those red flags in my mind now. I no longer override them.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 3:05pm
Spirit40 says:
Is that what wakes me up at 4 in the morning ? I feel more anxious than usual
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 4:40pm
OxDrover says:
Dear spirit,
Anxiety is a part of PTSD, the feeling that you are “not safe” even when you sleep is there. there is always a part of your brain that stays ‘awake” even when you are asleep.
That is why when you have a (say for example) a young baby, at first when you are anxious about that baby you may actually wake if if the babyl’s breathing rate changes during the night, but after a while, when you are no longer so anxious about your baby, unless they are screaming in a “I’m in pain mommie” scream, you may sleep right through a crying episode.
The same with our dog, if it is just barking at the cat, you may sleep through it but if it is barking the “Mom, there is an intruder” bark, you will wake up. Your mind stays on alert to some extent all the time even asleep.
When you are “hyper alert” though and anxious, your sleep may never reach the deep restful sleep that you need. Sleep deprivation is a terrible thing, and we all to some extent suffer from that when we are under stress. Sleep deprivation is used as a torture for prisoners of war, etc. When you are not mentally rested from sleep, your brain doesn’t think well either, and it makes it difficult to focus and to prioritize things.
Trouble going to sleep and trouble staying sleep is typical stress or PTSD or anxiety reaction. that is one reason it is so important for us to take care of ourselves when we are under extreme stress….we need all the help we can get. sleep, good food, rest, calm, peace, etc are very important to the immune system in keeping us physically, emotionally and mentally healthy.
That is one reason NC is SO important to us, it keeps the drama and the stress down because they are not able to re-injure us so easily. TAKE CARE OFYOURSELF, rest, eat right, cut down on alcohol and caffine and anything else that interfeers with sleep, rest or good health. ((((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 4:50pm
Spirit40 says:
Thank you, always Oxy…. yeah I have amazingly not even had a glass of wine… maybe on turkey day gobble gobble.. its the caffeine and nicotine… Hugs
I want to sleep now but then will wake up at 4 am …. I am happy I start a new job next week…thanks again
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 5:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Spirit,
After all this, I started to smoke again and got up to doing huge amounts of caffine–which in excess causes not only insomnia but depression–so I am finally quitting the cigarettes and cutting down to two cups of caffine coffee per day. IN the AM only—none after noon.
Trying to eat right (and less) sleep regularly and well, cut out any over use of anything, and up the use of things that are good for me, like exercise, etc. But the main thing is MODERATION in everything with a focus on MY OWN WELL BEING. Good luck with your new job! A new job is a stress in itself, so be EXTRA GOOD to yourself! BTW–calories consumed on Thanksgiving and Christmas are neutral, they do not make us gain weight! I SWEAR THAT IS TRUE!!! Oh, I have some great ocean front property in Arizona for sale? Interested? LOL ((((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 5:41pm
pollyannanomore says:
I am having this problem with waking up multiple times through the night. It is almost over now and he is nearly gone so the pain has been very up and down. Sometimes I manage to be detached from it, sometimes I am very angry, sometimes I feel the familiar despair. I managed to give up the nicotine a month ago (amazingly at the most stressful part of life) but am now regularly waking four or five times a night and am absolutely exhausted every day – feel like I might fall asleep standing up sometimes. I have no problems getting to sleep – it is staying asleep that is the problem. I know it is stress linked and just hope it settles down when things are settled. I am on hyper alert and it certainly doesn’t make you effective or efficient at dealing with practical things – I am too upset. Thank goodness the lawyer is thinking straight because I am not.
Congrats Spirit on the new job – that will be a huge boost to you – well done
I know it is so hard to present ourselves well after an experience like this.
Excellent writing Duped – good to see your mind feels more intact now you are out of the craziness. I am looking forward to that for me!
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 5:43pm
Twice Betrayed says:
I am not a nicotine or caffeine user but I still wake up and/or have difficulty sleeping all night. Funny thing is: I sleep worse now that I have left him for almost two years. If I get stressed in the least….I get anxious and cannot sleep well. It’s so weird why I get all this now….instead of when we were together. I wake up hearing his voice, dream about him in situations that are stressful, etc. Yesterday a friend of mine walked up behind me and it sounded just like my x’s footsteps. I am over all the crying over him….past all that. I don’t even care that he is married again. I can laugh at all this…I don’t think openly about him….yet I am tormented at night with anxiety and dreams. Make it this far and cannot get it all out of my subconscious mind…..*sigh
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 6:09pm
velveeta says:
I have never posted here before although I have been reading this blog for a few months now. I most definitely have PTSD after everything I have gone through. Can someone say how long it takes for this to subside. I’m a wreck.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 6:27pm
OxDrover says:
DearTB,
It takes time and work to get through it all. I think the first part of it is becoming AWARE of where we are showing stress responses. those are “symptoms” of the stress responses still going on in your body.
Stress is not an all or none response, there are degrees of it and RESIDUAL EFFECTS in our organs, our brain, our muscles, etc. I realized accidentally once that I thought I was doing okay, and accidently ran into my egg donor in the store and I got a BIG IMMEDIATE SHOT OF STRESS HORMONES and it literally made me SICK to my stomach for about 18 hours. What it did do for me though that was positive, was that I realized I had lived like that 24/7 for so long, and that the stress had wound down SLOWLY so slowly in fact, I hadn’t even noticed it was pretty well gone. After that, I made a big effort and still am, to DECREASE my stress in any way possible.
First is to LIMIT CHANGES of any kind so that they don’t all take place at once. Spread them out if at all possible.
One of the big bad things about disengaging from the Ps is that so many different changes take place all at once, maybe you have to move house, change jobs, change this, change that, and so on.
EVEN ALITTLE “upset” can set your stress recovery back weeks. So stay away from anyone or anything that it is possible to avoid that upsets you emotionally.
Exercise is a stress burner—get out and walk and exercise regularly to burn up those stress hormones.
Back to the basics of be good to yourself. Get a massage, and don’t think it is a luxuary. If you can’t afford it, trade massages with a friend. Don’t watch exciting/violent movies that get your heart rate up. Don’t listen to music that upsets you or makes you feel down. If staying home alone upsets you, go for a walk and listen to soothing music. Call a friend who is understanding, or anything that calms you down, soothes you or makes you feel at peace.
Meditate or pray. Relax, learn relaxation therapy, bio feed back, anything that will center you, focus you and make you feel at peace. the last thing you need is more chit about anything. Then, give yourself TIME and don’t try to rush this process.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 7:23pm
OxDrover says:
Dear velveeta,
I was writing and we posted over each other. Welcome to LF and I am glad tha tyou are here reading.
“Time”? “How long?” As long as it takes is all I can say, but don’t expect it to be over in a couple of weeks , or a couple of months. the effects of the cumulative stress you have been under takes tiem to resolve and as I said to the poster above, BE GOOD TO YOURSELF. Keep on reading, learn and the more you learn the better equipped you are to help yourself heal.
Knowledge is power and we have to take back our power. Knowing that we are NOT alone in this, not isolated floating on an iceberg in the northern sea, that there are people who have experienced much what we have helps. Keep on reading. I am sorry that you “qualify’ to be in our “club” but it is a great group of supportive people in all stages of healing and each of us will extend a hand to you. God bless.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 7:27pm
henry says:
Velveeta – Cheese always get my attention. PTSD is not something that goes away.. on a certain day or time frame. You have ptsd because something has happened to you that will change you forever. Please read and learn. Knowledge is power. I recommend ‘Meaning from Madness’ by Richard Skerritt – welcome..the simple fact that you found this place and know that something has to change is a big step towards your healing – you have to learn it away, if that makes any sense.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 8:26pm
Matt says:
Duped:
“Are you reacting because the situation REQUIRES it? Or are you reacting because you’re DRIVEN to? I ask myself these questions with regularity and find I’m a happier, more relaxed and better focused person, mother and professional.”
So true. Like you, I grew up in a madhouse. I know understand that I was suffering from PTSD from a fairly early age. But, the hyper-vigilence kept me from being murdered at the hands of two volatile parents (S father and malignant N mother). Unfortunately, living with the throttle open all the way became the norm. And like you, living like that at times has worked to my detriment.
Mix that in with my putting everybody’s needs ahead of my own, and it is a miracle I managed to keep the show going as long as I did.
Like you, I now ask if I am reacting to a situation because it is required or because I am driven to. IN addition, rather than being the perpetual motion machine that hyper-vigilence forced me into at such an early age, I can, if I don’t know the answer to something, say “I don’t know” and take a wait-and-see position. I’m a lot happier because, bottom line, I am finally taking care of myself.
Excellent article. Thanks for the contribution.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 8:39pm
Spirit40 says:
Question, I dont want to give his family my new address, I feel they are cold cruel people especially to me, but they seem to think since they have a grandchild I owe them that, they have seen my child a total of 3 times because I did try but they refuse to acknowledge the P and keep up the facade that he the P is just an alcoholic, as far as I am concerned I do not owe them anything, as far back as I can remember I did not want the P or his family in my life and they pursued me???? ugggghghghghhghgh keep your dam christmas presents…
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 8:43pm
Matt says:
Spirit40:
Legally speaking, grandparents have no rights vis-a-vis a grandchild as long as both parents are alive. Generally, where courts acknowledge grandparent rights arises where a parent is dead and the surviving parent refuses to permit the deceased spouse’s parents to have contact with the child.
Without knowing the facts of your situation, would there be a tactical reason for you to maintain some kind of contact with your child’s grandparents? I’m thinking along the lines that since they have no relationship with their son, could you leverage this to your advantage so that if he starts something in the future, you could use them as allies, or if not as allies, a source of information so you can keep tabs on the S? Just a thought.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 9:00pm
velveeta says:
I am still figuring out how to blog. Can’t say I have ever done this before. Thanks OxDrover for responding and I have read innumerable posts by you throughout this site. Thank you also Henry for your “cheesy” comment. That made me smile.
So what I am figuring is that if you post a comment on here, and not necessarily in a blog from a few months ago which has been helpful to you, that people follow that thread and respond. Is there a way to find recent posts without clicking through to all the different categories? Please excuse my lack of savvy in this regard.
I am not without resolve. I only became completely aware of what was wrong with the person that brought me to this site until this past summer. I knew something was egrigiously wrong with him, but of course he explained it away with “PTSD” and crocidile tears. He is ex-military and brandishes and threatens people with weapons. Always behind closed doors. Unfortunately, my natural essence of caring, forgiving and nurturing — the kindred spirit that I am is what made me his target. I have never seen the face of evil like this before. That is not to say that I have not experienced things that most don’t comprehend. Being molested as a child, raped as a young woman, probably (with hindsight which is always 20/20) parented by an NPD. As I understand it, these things will set you up for a fall for this type of personality. This person of whom I speak is worse that my molester, rapist and parent, rolled up into one. It shook me to my core. Like the devil incarnate.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
pollyannanomore says:
Velveeta mine is ex military as well and I am wondering if this is something to do with the ability to turn emotions off – it becomes a chicken and egg situation though – did they join the military because they were attracted to power and scary things or did the military bring out the cold and detached tendencies in them?
I know he spoke of training as rather traumatic and he said he had multiple ‘vaccinations’ that he didn’t know what they were. Is it possible a drug could obliterate empathy? It brings to mind Jacobs Ladder I think where military personnell were given a drug to make them more violent but it turned them into animals who turned on their platoon mates – not sure if Jacob’s ladder is the right reference. Does anyone else know of this????
Yes you are dead right Velveeta that we are set up from childhood for the fall with the S or P. Like you I was emotionally abused through a self centred parent (with no mediating influence around as Dad left early on), was raped and went through numerous other trials before meeting him. I was ripe for believing his fairytale of happiness.
And yes like you he was the worst of all abusers – he was the most evil thing I ever experienced and took me on a trip to my own personal hell. I am sorry you are here but glad you found this group = it gives so much validation just to have other people say “The same thing happened to me”. The abusers would have us believe we are alone in the world and it is all in our imagination. I BELIEVE YOU!!!! I KNOW YOU”RE TELLING THE TRUTH!!
Newer posts are up on the left hand side of the page or you can go to the home page to see the most recent posts and yes then you just comment. There are guidelines for commenting midway on the left side menu – keep yourself safe
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 10:50pm
duped says:
First I want to thank everyone who’s contributed to this thread. Writing the posted letter was cathartic. Getting even a small piece of my nightmare out in print and acknowledged is a great relief. Thanks for appreciating the craftsmanship and participating!
Having said that…and prefacing that I am but a layman in the science and art of psychology…I’d like to address some content.
PTSD is a disorder that can have a myriad of symptoms; none which should be overlooked and all having the best outlook when recovery includes the partnership with a trained professional. My letter was to bring to light “hyper vigilance”, which is but one. It spawns from anxiety, which is AFFECTIVE in that we feel it.
Anxiety is what makes us feel that lump in our chest, mind racing, heart rate out the roof, sweaty palms, sweaty everything, difficulty breathing, difficulty sleeping, intense dreams or some milder or stronger biological reaction to stress. It is often the precursor to “hyper vigilance” which is behavioral in that it is marked by our reactions and/or actions as a result of intense fear and/or helplessness.
During peak PTSD episodes, we are not in control of what we feel. We can moderate with exercise, diet, yoga, meditation, biofeedback and the like. All extremely useful tools for coping and moderating our intense feelings. However, if we could control them, we’d all be healed instantly with a thought and this site wouldn’t exist. Hyper vigilance, since it is BEHAVIORAL in nature, is something we can control. It’s about our actions…and ACTIONS ARE SOMETHING WE CAN AND MUST OWN UP TO.
So, while the S or N has created an environment responsible for our PTSD, the root cause of many cases of anxiety, they are not responsible for how we act. WHEN WE GIVE UP TAKING CONTROL OF OUR ACTIONS AND REACTIONS, WE EMPOWER THE S OR N.
It is not easy to separate the two; feelings of anxiety and how we act upon them. The incident I shared in my letter (one of many) will be three years old on December 8th (but who’s counting
)and I still have to exert considerable effort to separate the two. I do believe, however, it’s this ability that has given me the greatest sense of freedom from the captivity of PTSD. AWARENESS that these are two different things (anxiety – feelings, hyper vigilance – actions) IS EMPOWERING . We cope with one and have the power to control the other.
Pauses and discipline better influence outcomes. Namaste
Duped
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 10:56pm
henry says:
Yes velveeta – I had similar childhood experinces as you. Very toxic mother, molesters, all of it, a life time of it and nothing, nothing was like the three year relationship from hell with the evil one.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:01pm
velveeta says:
Thank you pollyannanomore for the affirmation — you belive me. Trust me I needed that.
I don’t think for a minute that (in my own experience) it had to do with training or vaccinations or what happened to him in my case. I believe our men and women now in Iraq and Afghanistan could say that. My heart bleeds for all of them. If we could only stop all this insanity. I listened to my particular guy’s stories about peacekeeping in Bosnia and believed his PTSD stories, tried to help him, yet there was an underlying personality disorder that became so evident that it could not be denied. He is the type that would torture something and actually get off on seeing them squirm. It was scary. I felt like I was looking into a void. The mask would fall and I would see that I was loving and caring for an absolute animal. The type that would do inhuman things. Can this be trained into people. I hope not. If that is what the military does then God help us all.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:09pm
velveeta says:
Well Henry. Just as a general reference because I have not followed your posts, your are a man? And a woman did these horrible things to you? Or just your parents?
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:12pm
duped says:
velveeta and pollyannanomore,
My ex, although not really ex military (as he was thrown out for mental health reasons 4 months into his tour of duty) was recently diagnosed with Complex PTSD. After thorough research into the subject, it appears that C-PTSD patients have nearly identical symptoms and traits as Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD), with the exception that C-PTSD patience have a documentable trauma that caused the disorder where as the BPDs just turn out that way with no known origin.
BPD has historically been considered a female disorder while the male counter is Sociopath. Since it is hard to accept someone who hasn’t chopped people into pieces and distributed them across country as a Sociopath, it appears there is this nice new label for men with BPD, Complex PTSD.
The fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you work to figure out why they are what they are, it won’t change who they are and what they did to you and will most likely do to others, given the chance. Most constructively, the emphasis on why you were attracted and how you can prevent being attracted (or for some stop being attracted to the existing problem person) would be your best effort.
Being incredibly nice and easy going is a survival mechanism that’s easy to bolster and justify. Who could possibly find something wrong with THAT?
Growing up with mentally or morally unstable people causes codependencies. As with living with an alcoholic or drug addict, one learns to adapt their own behaviors and expectations accordingly to survive and attempt to thrive. Inappropriate behaviors can seem normal when it’s all you know. Radars don’t fire and alarms don’t go off. Love has bizarre boundaries, if any.
Sound familiar?
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:20pm
duped says:
Matt,
Ahhhh…. ““I don’t know” and take a wait-and-see position”….so incredibly challenging but what a relief! It’s amazing how the Universe provides when you don’t force your own will all the time.
The real challenge, knowing when and when not too!
A kindred spirit
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Duped,
You are one savy lady! I applaud your knowledge and your willingness to share what you have learned! TOWANDA for you!!!!
Velveeta, yes my X-BF-P blamed his problems on PTSD from viet nam and boy could he cry and say how horrible it was, but you know, I have NO confidence that any of his stories were true. I know several men (him and a couple of others) who admit they faked their PTSD to get pensions for their “disabilities”—funny thing though, unless they are using it for an excuse for something nasty they have done, there doesn’t seem to be any “disability’ from their PTSD or other symptoms of it. LOL Can we say CON JOB? Stargazer’s x bf military creep was faking a physical disability, but fortunately she got the army on to him. GOOD JOB STAR!
It chaps my cookies that soldiers who do come back with genuine PTSD are not treated as well as they should be because of all the quack jobs that FAKE it and use up mjilitary medical for their phony disabilities.
Velveeta, sweetie, you have looked into the face of SATAN, as have most of us, and it is a scary thing to realize and to SEE the TRUE EVIL that can be contained within a human body. Unless you have seen it, it is very difficult to comprehend. Who would NOT be traumatized by seeing into that depth of evil? I’m glad you found your way here, there are some awesome folks here who know what you saw, and the whole group stands together like a group of one legged people all holding on so that together we can stand upright! God bless.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:31pm
henry says:
Oh My – Velveeta – I am a gay man. My mother is the narcissist. My life would read like a stephen king novel. The sociopath in my life was a male. I had been single twenty + years when he tripped and fell in my lap. I unknowingly volunteered to be his victim. I lost over twenty pounds from the experience. My two son’s (yes I was married at a very young age) almost did an intervention because of my physical and mental state caused by the sociopath. I am not good with words, can’t express myself like so many eloquent people here, but the sociopath was like the last straw on the camels back, my back. I had no choice but to look deep into my past, I had pull out all that trash I had kept swept under the rug. I had to examine it, deal with it, acknowledge it. So in a way the spath did me a favor…The Truth Will Set You Free – But First it Will PISS You Off – This has been a Life Lesson – velveeta please listen to me – The PTSD you are experiencing is not all about your X – it is about you…that does not mean he is not to blame for bringing you to a fetal position on the floor, YES he is Evil – but the work you have to do is on you – dont waste another minute on him……..
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:37pm
duped says:
And to you, OxDrover
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:47pm
velveeta says:
Dear Duped:
The question is: with a true sociopath/NPD/psychopath whatever you want to call it (and until you have read some of the material on this site and others and with true introspect and hindsight), can anyone really tell? Do you distrust everyone and everything because you have had some bad experiiences in life? You believe you have picked yourself up and dusted yourself off and are willing and able to trust and believe in people. The reality is that we think we are safe here in North America because people are “civilized” but perhaps that is not true. It is the bleed-over effect, it permeates everything and everyone. None of us is immune to this. What our military people saw and experienced “over there” is in reality what we are experiencing here. It comes down to a “frame of reference.” When he talked about what he saw and experienced, I knew that I had seen and felt the same. I could relate. But I am not evil. Maybe it is that simple?
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:47pm
velveeta says:
Oh Henry!
I had to say that.
I understand what you are saying. I am a wreck but not in the fetal position (yet). The problem is that this man has threatened to shoot me and my entire family in the head and when he (by happenstance???) is at the gas station when I am filling my car up with gas — he is lurking over to the side — I see this with my peripheral vision – I feel it — I look away knowing that he is watching me and continue with my gas — and then he drives directly in front of me and snears and grins at me — I am afraid that he will shoot all of us. I don’t react or acknowledge I just know what he is capable of and that I could be the next headline in the newspaper.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:56pm
duped says:
velveeta,
It’s not about trusting others, it’s about trusting yourself. It’s allowing belief to be a byproduct of direct experience not the stories of others and taking the time to discern between the two. That helps with detecting evil and not becoming prey…and building a past that enables you to trust yourself…for the first time or again.
No one is condemning or judging you because you went where you did. We’re just trying to help you sort out the junk so you can move forward. If you oversimplify your experience, you MAY find yourself stuck in a rut.
We’ve all been there, or somewhere near, once…or twice…or more…or we wouldn’t be on this site. The question is, how do you get off?
I’m still here…
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:58pm
ErinBrock says:
Duped~
Your post is what I have failed to be able to put into words….
We do become hyper vigilant and we do lose balance or our perifrial vision. We become so focused on the whats/whys that there is so much that we miss or over work in our battles.
We think we can control ALL aspects of everything. We can not! We must remain in control…..but know when to fold em, or walk away.
This is a lesson I learned through being sick, divorcing a S and fighting for my kids when they were kidnapped.
We can live well, do our due dilegence and be certain we are making the best decisions…….then BAM…..a cancer diagnosis, filing for divorce and kids disappear…..so what do ya do with that?
Well……you DON”T crumble! You sit in the recliner and ponder…..WTF do I do now…..ask yourself…..can I change any of this……and start putting one foot in front of the other…..and HAVE FAITH!
I really do believe, and it has been proven in my own life to me……..you just CAN”T fit a square peg in a round hole. You gotta listen to your gut, your brain AND your heart…….move in the right direction and then…..let it go…..let it float into the universe……it’ll come back in the form it will, the way it should and the way it needs to.
It all works out the way it should.
This was my lesson on life….sometimes it doesn’t work out the way we want…..but it always works out the way it should.
Like your drug test……sometimes we push too hard and make mistakes (not checking results, even though you KNEW YOU didn’t do drugs) You didn’t look outside the ‘box’ at the possible.
It is the balance, the gut, the knowing the situation and having faith in the whatever happens will happen faith that we lose sight of.
It’s very hard to fight, be in the negative and keep faith in our own abilities to keep going in the right direction.
Sometimes we get derailed…..
BUT…..it’s imperative we keep focused on the ‘prize’….and WHAT we are doing to get there. Each step….DETAILS, DETAILS, DETAILS…
NEVER ASSUME!!!
Thanks for the article Duped……Oh, the lessons we learn~
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:59pm
henry says:
Velveeta – My X made threats. But nothing like you describe. I don’t have the words to express my sorrow for what you are dealing with. Please be careful. I think I was dealing with the devil, you are dealing with satan incarnate endeed..
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:07am
OxDrover says:
Dear Velveeta,
I think o ne of the things we lose that is the most important thing is we lose the ability to TRUST OURSELVES to keep us safe. We think we can distinguish bad guys from good guys, but obviously we made a mistake and let a bad guy get close enough to hurt us.
So, we made a mistake. Yep, we did. But we have to quit beating ourselves up and feeling stupid and afraid of shadows, and start to EDUCATE OURSELVES to what the bad guys really “look like” and they don’t have horns or forked tails and they look just like everyone else—BUT they do have “symptoms” (we call them RED FLAGS) and when we see a RED FLAG we RUN away from that person.
What is a RED FLAG? A red flag is ANY sign of dishonesty.
The best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. So though there are a FEW people who stop being criminals and really “find Jesus” the majority don’t. So if someone has a history of bad behavior, drugs, alcohol, wife beating, cheating, theft, etc. GET AWAY FROM THEM.
Also if they are trying to get you to PITY THEM, feel sorry for them, for the hard life they have had, FORGET THEM. If someone is trying for the PITY PLOY, YOU ARE DEALING WITH A PSYCHOPATH.
Okay, I was a “victim” I was abused, I need to NOT use that as an excuse to abuse others. Okay, Henry was abused as a child, Poor Henry—that does NOT excuse him abusing someone else. It does not excuse either of us for being a mooch and living off someone else’s sweat, or throwing pity me parties, and asking all my friends/victims to contribute to my rent, car payment or anything else.
Sure, I have empathy for every former victim on this board, but at the same time, that does not give ANYONE a pass to be an ASS themselves. It doesn’t excuse me calling someone names, flaming them, or anyting else.
So a HUGE RED FLAG is someone who wants your pity because they have been victimized.
THERE ARE LOTS OF OTHER RED FLAGS—read here, learn, and remember that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and we have to take back our power to distinguuish the good guys from the bad. We have to learn to trust ourselves again to keep us safe in an unsafe world.
I have PTSD, I watched my husband burn to death—but it didn’t mean I had a pass to go do mean things to others. Sure, it made me cranky, it did a lot of not nice things to me, but it NEVER EVER GAVE ME A PASS TO ABUSE OTHERS. One of my sons was in the plane crash and he was also burned badly, he didn’t become a psychopath—but my other son who had NO traumatic abuse when he was a kid or any kind of major trauma, he is a psychopathic murderer.
Anyone who is abusive to anyone and “blames” it on their drug problem, or their PTSD or any other excuse is a FAKER. Pure and simple. As long as someone is not “out of touch with reality” (legally insane and cannot tell right from wrong) they are RESPONSIBLE for what they do. PTSD does not make you immune to responsibility.
Velveeta, you have been abused and conned, and tricked and hoodwinked just like most of us here by someone who led us to believe they loved us or cared for us, but it wasn’t because they had an “exucse” or because they were abused as a child, it was because they DECIDED TO ABUSE US and DID NOT CARE if it hurt us, or in some cases, ENJOYED hurting us.
But you have made th eFIRST big step to recovery, you are HERE and you are learning about them, and also about yourself, Why you were vulnerable to them. It starts out about learning about them (so we can keep ourselves safe in the future) but ends up about being about, as Henry said, about US, healing ourselves.
I don’t want to live in a world where I can’t trust myself, and in order to trust others, I have to trust myself to decide who is trustworthy. All people who are mean and abusive are not trustworthy. Liars are not trustworthy. So start off by stickign with people who are responsible, kind, caring, do what they say they will do and are not users or abusers, and you have made a real good start in seeing who you can trust. Trust your instincts too, if it doesn’t feel right, it isn’t right. YOU CAN DO IT!!!! We all can! We all ARE! One step at a time.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:12am
velveeta says:
Dear Ms. Duped:
I never knew I stil had to detect evil — bottom line. After everthing and everyone I knew and experienced in life, I didn’t realize I had to detect evil and not become prey. Not at this juncture in my life. I do not feel condemned or judged. I just feel frightened by the profound and alarming nature of all of this. I thought I had this “licked” back in my twenties.
Your quote:
“The question is, how do you get off?
I’m not sure what this means. How do I get off of the crazy making histrionics of a complete nut? I’m not sure. Someone will arrest him? I can move away?
I’m still here
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:17am
velveeta says:
Dear OxDrover: By the way what does that mean? Please excuse my ignorance.
I believe in myself. I believe in all that is good. I have a great capacity for truth.
I am an athlete, a runner, a cyclist, a dancer. I eat well and take care of myself. I take care of my parents and my son or any of his friends. I do everything that one believes they should do to live a stellar life.
I am just confused — why and how can these horrible things happen to good people. Can someone explain. You do the work, your create and facilitate and something like this comes into your life. Is it karma? Do you deserve this? But Why?
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:26am
duped says:
I meant, how do you get off of this site? How do you find a path that doesn’t include suffering and trying to figure all this out? I’m still here, because I don’t have all the answers and I’m not out of the woods entirely.
It does sound as if you’re in a dire situation that may require more assistance than you’ll find on this site. If this man is truly still a significant and eminent threat to you, I suggest documenting everything and going to the authorities.
In my letter, I did distinguish between hyper vigilance and due diligence. If you are in danger, you must protect yourself. Getting and gathering as much information as you can may be the best way to start. It’s to your credit if you are methodical about how you approach and deliver your facts.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:31am
velveeta says:
Oh Henry!
Thanks, but don’t be sorry. Just talk to me. You had a narcisstic mother and your life reads like a Stephen King novel. Tell me why? I think my mother was/is the same. Is she dead now?
I used to read Stephen King like a fanatic when i was young (er).
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:32am
velveeta says:
Dear Duped:
Thank you. I have done all of that. The problem is that I live in a small community where he “knows” all of the military police and regular city police. He has told me that any of them could shoot me and discard my body — no body no crime. His exact words “you could be shot cycling in the park” It made me afraid to cycle. This is all so very sad. He said: My buddy “”"”"”"” could shoot you from three miles away, he is a sniper. I have tried but failed to make people understand.
The reality of the danger is clear. It has been for about two years. If I could leave I would.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:49am
Twice Betrayed says:
velveeta: Why?: Ahhhh, the million dollar question we all ask and all want an answer to. But, it’s also the one that each of us must answer on our own. For me the answer is spiritual….because there is a war going on here between good and evil. And these people are evil and take every advantage they can over us [and others].
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Velveeta,
“Hopw do you get off? that I think can mean different things to different people.
If we try to “figure them out” and “act nice” to them, we never get off it is like a “Merry go round” where you just go around and around without end.
When we start to heal, to trust ourselves again, we make choices to keep ourselves safe.
At one point, my own son and one of his “friends” was trying to kill me, and I had to make a decision to stay in my house or to run and hide, leave essentially everything behind and go into hiding to be safe. I am not a “fearful” or shy individual and my first reaction was to “stand and fight” but I realized eventually that living in my house with a gun, hiding behind the shades and waiting for the Ps to come to kill me was not a reasonable way to live.
They eventually got arrested, but not every time does that happen with every one.
Have you been to the police? have you told them he has threatened you?
Where do you live? In the US?
Bad things DO happen to good people, we get conned by evil people, and they threaten or hurt us. It does happen. It does NOT mean we deserve this though.
First order is to KEEP YOURSELF SAFE. If that means going to the police (does he have a criminal record? has he hurt others in the past?) I chose to run and it was difficult, I did not know at the time if I would ever be able to return home, and I am to some extent in danger now, if my son had the opportunity or resources he woujld continue to try to kill me. But I also chose to be CAUTIOUS and at the same time, to NOT live in TERROR. I don’t want to live in TERROR and I refuse to. It is simply a matter of how I think. I use caution, I lock my door, I actually carry a gun (but I am also trained and familiar with them and using them and I have made up my mind if I have to I will USE it to defend myself) It is legal for me to have a gun. I do not violate laws.
It might also be that you might also have to leave at least for a while. That might not be easily possible, but whatever it takes KEEP YOURSELF SAFE. You can’t heal if you are not safe. You are in my prayers! God bless you. (((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:56am
velveeta says:
Dear Twice Betrayed:
I believe you are right. A wage between good and evil. I have known the difference since I was very young.
It all sounds very Hollywood — even crazy — rantings from evangelical types, but I am now convinced that it is true. I know I am good, I just didn’t know I had to be hypervigilant against evil — at least not in my geographical location AND NOT AT THIS STAGE IN LIFE. Did I do something to deserve this? I don’t think so.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:09am
henry says:
velveeta – Before my X came into my life I didnt know squat about narcissist, sociopaths, pyycopaths, borderlines. I had been in one way or anoter affected by people with personality disorders my whole life. I had heard the terms, but never thot I would be affected by them. During my relationship with my x a good friend was enduring the chaos and drama through me. She witnessed my decent into hell but said nothing, just listened. Then one day she pointed her finger at me and said ___is a Sociopath, Well I had heard the term but never really knew exactly what it meant. So that day I googled SOCIOPATH and the trait’s fit him to a T. I can not diagnose anybody. He mite just be a TURD but from what I have read, shared here on LF, talked to a few therapist and a physciatrist I think he is one. So I found loveFraud. I bought a book “Meaning from Madness’ by Richard Skerritt and so began my education about personality disorders. And in the process learned so much about me and my learned disorders. And yes right there in black and white the truth was apparent about my mother who I had gone no contact with years before this..
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:10am
velveeta says:
Do do you have contact with your mother now?
And “meaning from madness” suggested by two people from this site now, will it tell me why people are evil?
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:16am
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: Thank you so much for your[ as always] helpful response to my post! I see what you are saying…I am still working thru the rest of the stress. Ok. Got it. When my brother was tragically killed in a car accident….I dreamed of him for months and months-because I never got closure with many things he did to me…I kept telling him in my dreams what I never could in life —and then the dreams gradually tapered off-as I forgave him and I told him so in my dreams….. I do walk and exercise much. I also find music that expresses my feelings helps me greatly. Plus: classical music really heals my mind. I do like to hear some loud classic rock/blues too….but you are right….I avoid violent films but then I always disliked those. My adrenals are burnt from too many stress hormones so I can get an overload fast if triggered -which will make me sick and take me days to overcome. What these people do to us is like being in a war zone-living daily in the fight or flight mode=survival.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:17am
pollyannanomore says:
So many elements here to relate to … and I think I have finally found the time of day in my part of the world when you all post!
I am struggling to keep everything together. My sense of the world as I knew it is shattered and I don’t know who to trust. I know I have made some bad calls on character in the past – the worst one with this man who hurt me so bad. So I can’t trust my own ability to keep myself safe.
I feel cut adrift as though I don’t know what the hell my next step is. I lost all sense of self efficacy with him – my ability to change things in my life and make my dreams come true. I am tired and struggling with fibro (brought on by the stress) and PTSD that wakes me through the night and makes me tired every day. I don’t know which problem to deal to first and am running around like a scalded chicken trying to hold everything together and stop the dam from bursting. I have a pet that has high special needs and needs treatments four times a day – that is costing me a fortune and I have to see a specialist myself. I am depressed, unhealthy, emotionally overwrought and generally not coping.
And yet I have not totally lost my capacity to hope. I take on projects and think perhaps this experience could provoke finding the very best in myself and healing all those long time hurts that caused me to fall into the arms of the bad man – Henry I totally get you on that. I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a favour – to be frank it was a ‘learning’ I could have done without! But I understand the brokenness that allowed me to accept such dreadful treatment of my soul for so long.
Trouble is I don’t know how to restore my soul. I don’t have endless time or money or energy and am struggling to manage with everything happening at the moment. I don’t know where the path leads from here but I sure want to get better. I want to get to a place of strength. I don’t like what I have become – have lost my self respect.
You are all right that it does us no good to contemplate why they are the way they are – the hurt they inflict is all that matters and they need to sort out their own brokenness as we need to sort out our’s. I do think there are consequences to being trained to kill – certainly it is a form of brainwashing. Mine was never in active service on duty but trained for it and felt cheated at not having had war experience. Very strange. The whole family was military of one type or another. Even the training to kill teaches young men to devalue the enemy.
Duped – thankyou for your honesty about not having found the path out of the woods yet. That both depresses me and gives me hope.
Henry – never let me see you say you are not eloquent – you have intelligence, articulation, emotion and sensibility that is expressed so beautifully – no university can impart that into a person no matter how many degrees they have.
Oxy – your warmth, empathy and wisdom is most welcome for me today – today is hard and the road feels long. I feel cheated of my family, my safety, my joy and I am so sad and angry about it.
Velveeta I don’t know the reason they came. I try to live my life through that frame too – what learning does this bring me that I needed? Why did this happen to me? what is the meaning>? I am sorry to say I feel I was wrong – this has blown all my beautiful framework out of the water, perhaps there is no meaning. Or perhaps we will see it in time to come. Or perhaps there is nothing. I don’t know. I don’t know anything anymore – I just thought I did.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:23am
henry says:
my mother is in a rest home – she is almost eighty and looks like a barbie doll because of all the plastic surgery – she holds a mirror and looks at herself constantly. When she first went into the nursing home she shared a room with a sweet blind lady that I really liked. I asked my mother if she liked Bonnie and she said “No I hate that bitch” I asked why? and mom said “Because she cant see how beautiful I am” that was the way my mom was my whole life. She stood by and did nothing when my father molested my sister – she would beat my sister for this” my sister lived a tormented life, she klilled her self at 45. Read that book Velveeta order it online it is only 10 bucks or so – then read other books and then listen to my favorite song “GOD ID GREAT. BEER IS GOOD. PEOPLE ARE CRAZY.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:26am
Twice Betrayed says:
velveeta: I can tell you where I found my answer on why people are evil. In the Bible.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:28am
henry says:
OOPS GOD (IS) GREAT…POLLYANA THAT WAS A BEAUTIFUL POST.. You will get better..be patient, take a deep breath and know that I care and think of you…
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:34am
velveeta says:
Oh Henry:
I can’t seem to stop saying that — your nickname — the chocolate bar.
My parents are still both alive and still tormenting me and each other — well my mother is tormenting us. She is 82 and sharp as a tack. Her tongue is as sharp a ever and she brutlizes my father who suffers from Alzheimer’s. I will get the book you speak of. But will it tell me anything I don’t already know but I just cannot comprehend is true. Weren’t we all taught to believe in the good, the righteous?
I am very sorry about your sister . . . from what I have read this happens to those of us who are “true spirits” who cannot and will not accept evil in our lives.
Velveeta
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:38am
Twice Betrayed says:
Polly: “And yet I have not totally lost my capacity to hope”
And there is your answer.
Everything you said….I’ve felt and still feel in varying degrees [I think most of us do]. Just hang in there from day to day….and each day gets better and your way gets easier. I don’t know many of those answers yet….and may never….but some of them I am no longer worrying about. I was numb this time a year ago…something I’d never experienced before. I was terrified I was not going to feel again like I did …..[I'd always enjoyed life in spite of the p's]….yet I made it thru that swamp too. One day at a time….sometimes one hour at a time…each step easier and easier. Your head is on straight….you are saying the words of grief…it will pass and you will find restoration…hang in there….it’s a journey. Cannot rush it….let it flow. Very good introspection….questions we all need to ask=the meaning of life!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:46am
velveeta says:
Pollyannanomore:
I don’t think you were wrong. I don’t think I was wrong. I know he was wrong. I know whoever did this to you was wrong — really really fundamentally wrong. On some instinctive level I realized that he was wrong after the fact. No one thinks there is anything wrong with him to this day.
But then i said to myself: I have lived what I believed and honored — what my rudimentary religious upbrining brought me –to love trust be reverent, to honor – I don’t want your beautiful framework do be blown out of the water. I want this to not happen to you too! I don’t want you to have to learn this horrible lesson.
Velveeta
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:54am
Twice Betrayed says:
If I could say just one thing to all the people wondering if it’s them…I kept this weight on my back for years…..till I finally I realized–hey, this is not my problem and I am handing it back to the one whose problem it is-the P! And I walked. It’s been a long hard journey…but it is not our fault or our problem. These people have deep internal demons that we do not know about and they are “driven to do evil”. It really is that simple. We love flowers, life, truth and beautiful things….they love dark, lies, battered, death, perversion etc….think about it.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:57am
pollyannanomore says:
Many many thanks for your care Henry and Velveeta and Twice Betrayed – I really need it tonight. Sometimes I feel so strong and I think ‘he won’t beat me – my life will be better’. And other times I feel small as a mouse. It is hard to contemplate this journey ahead – like quitting smoking – one day at a time. So I just have to get through today and tomorrow will be a little better,
I know it is our truth and light they are attracted by. I am huge on truth – not just not lying but expressing one’s truth moment by moment honestly and reverently. So he wanted to own that light. My work too involves empathy, caretaking, love – super empathic. That’s how I was so responsive to his cues and non verbal signs. I still blame myself to some degree though – I should have got out much quicker. I don’t blame myself for all the hurt – he did that. He abused me, he selected me as a target, but I should have recognised what he was doing quicker and got myself out of there,
Problem was by that point I was devalued and isolated – so who was I going to turn to? He had me convinced I was the one being abusive – that my depression had always been there and wasn’t caused by him. That my anger at him was not justified at all and was just any excuse to launch a personal attack on him. I see it all now in hindsight =- I so wish someone had named it for me.
Nobody had a clue what I was suffering – just that the marriage wasn’t good. Even counsellors didn’t ask about abuse. Why don’t people ask? I will ask the next woman I recognise in that state. I have held workshops on psych and emotional abuse – I am trying to raise awareness – it is so much more subtle than physical. I am not saying it is worse … emotional and psych always accompanies physical but I actually begged him to hit me because at the first hit I would have walked. We need to educate people that there are so many forms of violence. I didn’t realise a man could be dangerous in this way – he attacked my soul and shredded it.
In fact I DID ask the next woman I noticed the symptoms in and … she acknowledged it WAS abuse even though not physical and cried that I understood what she was going through and believed her. I hope she gets out but suspect she isn’t ready yet. She has kids with him and although she is paying for everything right now she doubts her abilities to do everything on her own. I remember that feeling and still have it. I don’t know what the answer is – certainly raising awareness is one thing but the resources aren’t there.
I called both numbers for a local battered womens shelter the other day looking for a name of a counsellor experienced in abuse situations. Both numbers rang for ages then switched to answerphone. It made me incredibly angry. Some woman at the end of her sanity musters up the courage to call and gets an answerphone! How does that give her any hope or support? (not being sexist – there are abused men out there but the shelters in my country are just for women and really just for those being physically abused). SO I gave up. And other women seeking help would give up too – not wanting to be more of a drain on already stretched services – that sucks – we have no safety net at all for the victims of predators.
Twice Betrayed – I am going to go look through the Bible again and definitely look for that Scott Peck book – anything from him is incredible. I found a community online last night called Ransomed Hearts – don’t know what they’re about but they seem to be good folk and reading their posts made me feel a little more faith that not all people are wolves and sharks.
How distant is everyone from their horror story? How many years? Mine is two yrs separated – one yr out of the house and one back in the house as a flatmate and about to split for good – ie in the next week or so.
Hugs to you good people – you didn’t deserve what happened. I am off to have some food
Feel a bit better – thanks so much@!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 2:24am
Twice Betrayed says:
Polly: I can so relate to all you have said! Been there, done that. I found no help except thru this site with people who understand what we have been thru/what we are going thru. The level of deception these p’s inflict and produce is just not understood by most counselors. I found the book Women Who Love Psychopaths first and it became my refuge….people who finally understood how all this went down…and how these people try to destroy us. Really–I don’t bother talking about any of this to anyone but here on LF…because only those of us that have been thru this type of nightmare can understand.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 2:49am
pollyannanomore says:
Ha ha! Twice Betrayed I am on Amazon now trying to join up and thinking that is my best first bet – to create a small librarystarting with that very title. You are so so right about people not understanding – counsellors included, I even went to psychologists and priest – none of them recognised it because I was too low blubbing about ‘my b – my b’. And he just sat there. He also just sat there for three bloody years while a mental (no offence to mentally unwell people – hell I AM one! hahaha ) But this woman was MENTAL _ STALKER. She had apparently Obsessive compulsive but I also suspect Schizophrenia and Paranoid delusions.
She fancied the S and so started hating me and stalking me. He did nothing – she lived next door and made life a living hell – always screaming out abuse, accusations, threats. The family was weird – it was a state rental – low cost. I fought the organisation for three yrs to get them moved. He did nothing. Just sat and watched it. Occasionally filmed it – she was trying to get into the house when nobody home etc scary stuff/ So all this going on and f developing, extreme grief about b. And he abuses all the time. Incredible. A wonder I didn’t end up in nuthouse.
Thanks for saying you’ve been here and it gets better – it’s just been the most incredible pain. I can’t even describe the hell – you’re right. Nightmare.
In some ways I think we stop being effective because we’ve had to be effective the whole way through – putting out small fires and big, sorting out their problems, helping and encouraging them, completely looking after them, seeing to everything. I think we just burn out. So when the end come and we realise and have to get out we don’t have anymore energy left. And we’ve been focussed on them so long, we don’t know who we are anymore.
We so need worldwide therapists who can lead us through at a minimum a weekend workshop of intensive therapy. That’s a minimum. And if counsellors don’t really get it then maybe the net could be widened to facilitators – it needs to happen. This is so so so damaging. You just imagine at a guess how many women and men are crying their damned selves to sleep because of one of these monsters.
And you are right again – it is the deception – it truly wounds the soul in ways that cannot be named. Such an incredible injury. Many thanks for your company tonight TB and for sharing your pain and mine. This is what humanity feels like. I had almost forgotten.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 3:16am
Spirit40 says:
Thanks MATT,
background my S, Narc, P wutever I call him, first he is adopted, I suspect one or both of his parents adoptive are narc, because of the abuse he suffered as a child and the way he treated me , and the little I know about them. Second the P is not on the birth certificate (wasnt around to sign it) legally where I was living I couldnt list him its a blessing in diguse because I was trying to all those drugs they gave me I was a little tipsy LOL ..
Third they have like he squirmed their way into our lives, I choose not to have them in our lives over 10 years ago..because I do go by my instincts and these people have not changed. They are cold to me but want at my child.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 3:19am
Spirit40 says:
An email I rcvd from P’s family
Spirit,
We haven’t heard from you, (insert my son’s name) or insert (his sons name the P ) for some time but hope that you are doing well…. How is your school going? I understand that you are getting close to graduating… Best of luck and I’m sure your glad to be close to finishing.
(Insert P’s Sister name here ) mentioned that your landlord defaulted on his/her mortgage and that you are being forced to move. Sorry to hear it, particularly with the Holidays coming. Please let us know your new address… It would also be helpful to know if you and (my sons name again) have any special requests for Christmas. Also, if its for clothes please let us know sizes since we haven’t seen (my sons name ) in a nearly a year.
Happy Thanksgiving
ugggghhhhhh it just erks me can anyone else feel the Narc in this or is it just me ?
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 4:47am
tami says:
Wow! I’m late in responding to this one but what a sneaky thing to do! Yes, I learned about the famous pot brownies when I was a teen in highschool. Some kid baked a batched up in Home Ec class. The entire 1st floor of the school smelled of pot and the teachers didn’t have a clue! LOL! The Home Ec teacher and the entire class was stoned for hours! Some kids even freaked out because they didn’t understand why they felt so weird. The kid finally confessed in order to calm people down. The teacher laughed it off but told the student it had better never happen again and it didn’t. That certainly wouldn’t happen in today’s school system. Funny though, how things were less violent back then when boys were allowed to carry pocket knives and the schools had “smoke holes” for the students that smoked cigarettes. A different time, for sure.
I, too, am having horrible problems with sleeping! I’m nearly 3 years out of the nightmare and developed the sleeping problem around 3 months ago. I wake up after a couple of hours of sleep and can’t go back to sleep. One night, I took a xanax and a Lunesta hoping to get a full night’s rest. NOPE! Same thing! I’m totally sleep deprived and am getting very little accomplished these days because I’m exhausted. Does this madness EVER end?
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 8:22am
Outlier says:
Corections:
[line 1] state of mind
[3rd para] I had a mini stress breakdown. Please scroll a little down to the bit about Hypervigilence.
Thank you Lovefraud and all its educators.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 9:34am
Donna Andersen says:
In reference to the comments at the top of this thread – for those who are having trouble sleeping, you should also be careful about your sugar intake. This is especially important for those of us women who may be around change of life age.
I’ve found that sugar stays in my system for 8 hours. Also, the quantity of sugar consumed makes a difference – a little tiny bit and I can overcome it. Too much and I can’t sleep. And, the effect of sugar is cumulative throughout the day.
So, we have dessert – like a small serving of ice cream or half of a chocolate muffin – at lunch time. None after dinner.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 10:03am
OxDrover says:
Wow, you guys went til nearly “daylight” in my part of the country last night/this morning. Some pretty profound things guys, GOOD INFORMATION!
That little LF mini-marathon put out some great information! both in terms of validating each other’s feelings/emotions/symptoms, to the HOPE AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL, and guys, it isn’ t an “on coming train”–that is the LIGHT OF HEALING shining through that hole!!! Keep marching.
Donna, sugar does a number on lots of people. Thanks for pointing that one out as well.
I might also point out for those of you (us) who SNORE you might ALSO be dealing with sleep apnea which causes all kinds of mind-fuzzying and physical fatigue symptoms as well, so if you SNORE and also feel fatigued or sleep deprived getting checked out for Sleep apnea might be a good idea.
The physical, mental, emotional, etc. symptoms we encounter from the STRESS of the P-encounters (in most cases I think, CHRONIC STRESS) is like a geometric scale, each addition of another “problem” is TEN times then damage, not “Plus one” so that is why I think it is SO important to GET BACK TO BASICS with our care of ourselves. We must take care of ourselves in every way possible, even the tiny–little bitty—things.
Some one up above, I think it was polly or velveeta, said about doing good things for others etc.—I honestly think after the wounds, we need to focus ALL our attention on US (and our children if we have them) but quit trying to take care of anyone except us and our children, and if the children are big enough to hellp with that by self care, in many ways we need to have them lighten our load as much as possible.
I think we need to view the WOUNDS we have as SERIOUS wounds needing SERIOUS CARE, and we must be the leaders in getting and providing that care, doing whatever we can to see that we get it.
The MINOR DISTRACTIONS that the Ps use to keep us off balance so that we are unable to think well, focus well, etc. are frustrating. Here we are needing to sleep and heal, and instead we are going to the bank trying to salvage the money that they are trying to steal. It is a BIG “Catch 22″ and they use it to their advantage. CHAOS!!!
Take care of YOU, is much easier said than done…but we have to do the best we can, and not beat ourselves over the rest that we can’t accomplish. The STRENGTH I am hearing each of you gain from the others is wonderful! KEEP IT UP! FEED OFF EACH OTHER’S STRENGTHS AND SUPPORT!!! It is MANNA in the wilderness of the chaos! Keep coming back to LF the manna is there every day! Depend on it! It will sustain you in your darkest hours! Boy, don’t I sound like a LF Televangelist!@ LOL even with the remarkable HEALING that goes on here, healing of the soul, the spirit and the body!!!
This place IS a Godsend! ((((hugs))) and a big TOWANDA for you all!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 10:57am
duped says:
While good stuff came out of last night’s correspondence, unless participants live on the other side of the world, they burned the midnight oil in so doing.
Sleep is essential for recovery and a better tomorrow. In addition to the dietary and lifestyle suggestions so far, I’d like to add:
-set a bed time and stick to it.
-if you can’t sleep, don’t willing step into the nightmare
-keep a neutral, uplifting but not energizing, book or magazine by your bed side
-practice positive imagery
-stay off of the Internet and television
-sip an herbal tea that has lavender or chamomile, no caffeine or sugar (which includes honey)
-warm milk has natural chemicals which can induce sleep
Life is easier to be happy and stave off evil if you’re living a balanced life. Easier to say then do….but something to strive for!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:49am
OxDrover says:
Right on, Duped!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:54am
duped says:
BTW – I blew my bed time last night
I will forgive myself and strive for better balance today 
ttfn
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:07pm
Spirit40 says:
Yeah I really threw my clock off and I went to bed early LOL
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:12pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Polly:”In some ways I think we stop being effective because we’ve had to be effective the whole way through – putting out small fires and big, sorting out their problems, helping and encouraging them, completely looking after them, seeing to everything. I think we just burn out. So when the end come and we realise and have to get out we don’t have anymore energy left. And we’ve been focussed on them so long, we don’t know who we are anymore.”
Bingo-girl, you nailed that! That’s why it is so important as Oxy ‘preaches’ [and others] LOL–to take care of you [and children if you have any-mine are all grown]. We are people who are very responsible and these P’s suck that dry and then move to the next. But, watch out….cause they will back off, let us recharge and then return to suck that dry-cause most of us are the best victims they’ve ever had. Hard to find good victims like you used to be able to…ahahahahaaa!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:47pm
Twice Betrayed says:
*ttfn….have not heard that in a long time…I like!!!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:48pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Donna: so correct on sugar! Thanks for pointing that out! I quit eating sugar years ago. But, last year at Christmas my daughter baked all these great cookies etc and I did pig out. Got sick the next day and it took me literally months to get well. I had never broken my rule like that but I was undergoing that divorce and the cookies and cakes/pies etc all looked so tasty. BAD mistake and one I do not intend to ever repeat. On top of all that-I was celiac [gluten intolerant] but I did not know it yet. Talk about almost finishing myself off….I did think I might not make it. I was that sick for months. Sugar and wheat….two poisons for me. In celiac wheat actually destroys the stomach villi which makes it hard to digest and assimilate anything.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:
* dang it-I like midnight oil!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:58pm
Cat says:
Dear Duped and everyone else who has posted here,
Once again, a more timely article cannot be found. Last night was one of those nights for me. My ex P. is insinuating he will go for custody of our son, who is 10. LOGICALLY, I know this won’t happen. He has a history of criminal activity and drug abuse and he hasn’t worked in 3 years now. He insinuates that members of my own family will help him and I know that’s not entirely true. He HAS managed to snow some members of my family, but still, I know he cannot win. At the worst, he will create another bunch of family chaos. His idea of a compromise is that we live together for the sake of our child. Translate that to “I want this story to continue just as it is…you pay all the bills, buy the groceries, pay the rent and I’ll do whatever I want to do.” I know his game all too well. Yet, last night, I was being exactly what you have written about, hyper vigilant. I hardly slept, I’m exhausted today and angry with myself for falling for this.
Duped, at one point, I too, had tests done to prove I wasn’t on drugs and it was all due to being hyper vigilant. I became that way because at one point I HAD to, but it’s come back to bite me in the butt. People (family) STILL believe I am on drugs and in hindsight, what I should have done is simply said that those who believe it go right ahead and believe it. I know all too well that the Path played his games with my family and some still have not yet caught on. HE is doing drugs off and on, yet they believe he is a victim. Aaarrrrgh!
So, in the midst of the chaos, I come to LF and read and write and I feel soothed at least to some degree inside. This is the only place I can write about this and someone will understand. I, like others, do not talk about this with anyone else.
Thank you for some ideas. Today, I will do something to take care of me and trust that God will do what He does best. I think that last night I forgot to let him take the wheel.
God Bless…..
Cat
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:04pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Cat: my x did the same thing with my family, threatening me with all sorts of gaslighting. Heck, they are just looking for fears/buttons to push. Mine told me he ruled my family and could turn them on/off at will. And pretty much did. But, it’s only because he had ’some goods’ on them. They all understand each other. His MO is intimidation. If he can run that game he will….looking for holes in your soul to twist. It’s all fear based. Your fear….think of the wizard of oz.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:16pm
skylar says:
Duped, thanks for your post. Great stuff.
Sugar is a big problem for me too. If you want something to substitute try agave syrup. It has a lower glycemic index so it absorbs slower into your system.
Velveeta, they all have sniper stories. That’s called gaslighting. Granted, some really do try to kill you, like Oxy’s son tried, but most of them just like to fantasize and scare you. Mine said the same thing to a friend of his (about the sniper), but when my xP has actually killed people it was by arranging untraceable “accidents” in aircraft. So, I guess you have to judge the P’s limits by combining his IQ with his PCL-R score.
If he’s smart, he’ll be more devious when he kills, if he’s dumb he’s more likely to use a sniper rifle like the DC sniper did.
It feels unreal that normal people like us should even have to have discussions on how we are more likely to be killed: sniper or sabotage? F**K! But you know, that’s just life. I’ve accepted it. It’s part of my reality now. I realize that people in third world countries still have it worse. So I deal with it and move on. It’s still better to know the truth than to live with my head in the sand the way I used to.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:27pm
velveeta says:
hi Skylar:
Thanks. I only just realized and read about gaslighting this past summer. Before that, I just thought he was having PTSD flare-ups. Now I know without question that he is sane, that all of the things he said were said intentionally so he could watch my reaction — watch for a look of fear. He lied about his PTSD to gain a disability pension. Funny how that disappears when he heads to the bar every day.
The oddest thing is that initially I would laugh at him when he said such ridiculous things like he could shoot me from a mile away, that is until he had his 9 mm cocked and ready to fire and was holding it James Bond style and telling me he would *** shoot me in the head, he would **** shoot (my son) in the head, he would **** shoot my whole family. I didn’t know what I was dealing with but I do now. He has threatened so many people’s lives — he says he has a long list of people he will shoot. I know he is capable. I’ve seen what is behind that mask.
Oxy — as I was rereading some of the posts, you said you watched your husband burn? Good Lord how did that happen. Is your son still running around loose and able to harm you. I am telling you that I know what it feels like to look over your shoulder every time you go out to your car or go about your daily busines. It has been this way for me since June of 2008. That is when I finally realized that the guy was not fooling around!!!
Velveeta
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 2:33pm
velveeta says:
Hi Twice Betrayed:
I like this post of yours:
But, watch out….cause they will back off, let us recharge and then return to suck that dry-cause most of us are the best victims they’ve ever had. Hard to find good victims like you used to be able to…ahahahahaaa!
That is exactly what they do over and over and over. It still amazes me that I fell for it as many times as I did.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 3:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Velveeta,
My husband burned to death in a light aircraft crash in July 04, here at our farm/airport, one of my sons and two others were also in the plane and burned pretty badly as well, but they all did live. Only the youngest (age 16 at the time) required extensive hospitalization. He is doing well now. My son is also doing well, though he does have PTSD from the crash, but is working on that and improving each day.
My P son has been in prison since 1991 for murder, he got one of his former cell mates who was out of prison to come, infiltrate our family, by renting a small house for me that I owned as a rental lproperty, then move himself into a position to “take over the family” and to “off me” for an inheritence so that I could not “cut him out” of his ENTITLED share of what our family has worked for generations. We are not “wealthy,” but compared to a convict we are, LOL
This “trojan horse psychopath” is a 3 X convicted child molester, drug abuser, thief, and elderly abuser. A real gem. He had an affair with my other son’s wife, also a P, and the two of them when I fled and they could no longer find me to kill me, abandoned my P-son’s plan, and turned on my son C and my enabling mother. when C discovered the affair (he didn’t know about the other and wasn’t willing to believe what I had told him–and yes, it did sound like a stephen King novel LOL) but the DIL decided to kill my son C (her husband) and make it look like “self defense”—she wasn’t as smart as she thought she was and she and the Trojan Horse Psychopath both went to jail. They are both out now, but I am not the least afraid of either one of them. I live in a rural area that is sparsely populated and they are well known for what they are by local law enforcement who doesn’t like them any better than I do, and they know it. They will stay away from us and our place.
My son, P, however is sitting in prison writing pity letters to my mother to get him to A) send him money now for commissary money and B) leave him money after her death. My other two sons and I are NC with her as she knows my son is what he is and she still enables him out of “pity” though the more money he has the easier it would be for him to recruit another “killer for hire” to kill us for revenge if noting else. Needless to say, he hates my guts. In any case, I know what it is to look over my shoulder, and I am CAUTIOUS but I will NOT live in fear. The worst thing he can do to me is to kill me, and while I sure don’t want that to happen, I won’t “die” 1000 times every day living in terror and fear.
The old saying “a brave man dies but once, a coward dies a thousand deaths.” If we live in terror and fear, what good is life. We just, I think, have to own up to the fact we are going to die some day anyway, and in the mean time, keep yourself as safe from ACCUTE threats as possible, and be cautious and keep due dilligence in your life.
My two sons live with me, we are all armed, but we no longer jump or “startle” when someone drives up in the yard.
I laughed the other day, one of my sons asked me where my personal protection pistol was, he wanted to clean it and I said “it’s where it always is, on my bed, under my Bible!” he laughed too and said, “where else but Arkansas would an old lady keep a ‘hog leg” under her Bible!” I really hadn’t ever thought about it that way, but I guess he is right! LOL
I WILL NOT allow them to make me live in terror. That is what they WANT, that is what your X is doing to you, he is stealing your life with your FEAR! Sure, he may kill you, but you can’t control that except by doing what you can (contacting police or whatever) but you CAN STOP BEING TERRORIZED, that’s what he wants. don’t live in FEAR, get MAD! Get strong! He doesn’t have to shoot you to “kill” you if he ruins your life! TAKE IT BACK!!!!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 4:48pm
ErinBrock says:
Velveeta:
I was thinking about your post and not sure how to put my thoughts into words…..
Then Oxy (of course) puts it perfectly.
I’ts not to minimize our value and lives or the situations we live under…..BUT…..we have to take back the power.
I have said many times before…..once facing cancer….etc….and a S at the same time…..I became NOT afraid to die….it wasnt’ that I wanted to die…..It was my way of taking back my power.
If you think about it….what is the ulitmate fear…usually death….the end…kapoot….
So, once I removed that fear, disected it….I lived a good life, traveled, helped people, was a great wife, great mother, taught my kids life lessons, set a good example ….blah, blah….well…..what more could a person ask for in life…..well….longevity? Okay…not in control of that part…..
So….I gave up the fear…..it could be my health or the sociopath that would kill me…..bring it on…..I have a legacy!
It won’t go un noticed and if he killed me, my kids would be safe from him…..cuz there are PLENTY of authorities looking for him!
I had anxiety, fear and all the trapping mind fucking behaviors and emotions……
And the minute I disected the reality…..and let it all go…..my anxiety went away and so did the fear and I was no longer paralyzed in my fear……
LOOK OUT BELOW>……EB was now in control of HER!!!!
What oxy writes is true…..we can die a thousand deaths……IF WE LET IT HAPPEN!!!!!
This is the choice we do have!
I vote for life…..and to take steps in the direction of peace for ME.
I am no longer in fear of him……but I have turned it into awareness…….I am aware of my surroundings, my personal safety and kids……BUT I WON”T LET HIM RULE MY HEAD!
I have contemplated buying a gun…..packen heat…..but I have decided it’s not in MY best interest. I have bear spray, and security systems, monitors and all the surveilance gigs….
I have done my ‘due diligence’ on security….and I am SO glad that I have. I see people he sends my way, It has the police keeping an eye and knocking on my door when something happens in neighborhood….cuz they know i have it on tape…..The police are aware of our situation, and know i wont hesitate to call…..if they don’t come running….there gonna here it…..
I am a big security advocate!!!! And if I had more of an education of comfort with guns….I’d own one…..
We can choose to live in fear, based on the threats……or we can choose to live the life we want!
Keep in mind….99.9% of everything we worry about….never happens!
SO…..the odds are in our favor………
Think about it!
XXOO
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 5:12pm
velveeta says:
You know Oxy you have hit the proverbial nail on the head. That is exactly what he was doing. this past summer I was really paranoid. Once I realized what he was doing after reading here and many other sites) I calmed down a bit and took the attitude if it happens it happens but I am never lax about where I go, who I talk to etc.
The police here know all of the threats. I got wise and started documenting each and every one of them. They advised a protective order, but of course we all know that that will not keep you safe. Where I live, you cannot carry a gun in the same way that you can. Besides, I don’t know how to use one so it would undoubtedly would not be a good idea.
A friend of mine here who was divorcing her cop husband was recently hospitalized after a vicious and brutal sexual assault in her home. They caught him (the cop/her ex) in the basement cleaning up after himself because somehow amazingly she was able to call 911 even though he had taped her mouth, eyes, hands and brutally raped and assaulted her. She was going through chemotherapy and radiation for cancer at the time and he repeatedly punched her in the area of the caner. She had had a restraining order for a number of years as they were going through their divorce. He violated that TRO dozens of times and each time received a slap on the wrist. (He originally told her he would kill the kids and then himself). He is in jail now but when the cops said to me: “apply for a protective order, I mentioned this particular case and said “how do you think that was working for her.” They knew the story and knew I was right. I told him “getting a restraining order on this guy will make him want to shoot me in the head even more. He’s a soldier and I don’t want to make war with him. I just want you to know that if ever a hair is touched on my head, that it is him or someone he knows.”
I have left it at that. I would like to move away as soon as I can and told the police that as well. But only time will tell. If the opportunity presented itself I would be gone in a New York second.
Velveeta
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 5:20pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: I am so sorry for all your tragedy–you are to be commended on your bravery and willingness to turn your focus toward helping others! I tip my tam to you! *salute!
Oxy and EB: you are both so correct on the power of life/death. Most of us have faced death with these p’s in one form or another. You know, I do credit my p for one thing….if he had not broken me so badly I might not have returned to my faith in God. Sometimes Satan just pushes us too far and we turn to God.
I do pack ‘heat’….I am licensed to carry a firearm. I’ve had my car tampered with several times but could not link it to him. God has watched over me and I have not been on the freeway when things occurred. I am careful since I do live in a secluded area. He has come to my home-crossing the order of protection-but I got the sheriff to go by his work and tell him I was pressing charges and they were arresting him. He asked to not be arrested and they warned him what the protection order meant and he backed way off. Mine does not want to risk incarceration of any sort. If he should ever do anything it would be thru a second party.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 5:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear TB,
The “tragedies” I have lived through, are like you said, the things that helped make me what I am, restore and reinforce my faith in God and a lot of other things. My husband died doing what he loved (flying) and it wasn’t his fault the crash happened, and he did save the rest of them by keepign the plane from flipping over. A lot to be said for that.
I hope that the last thing I see is Fat or Hairy kicking my lights out when I am 85! LOL But like EB says, that is not up to me.
Velveeta, I am glad that you are working on your fears, and that is really all we can DO except keep ourselves as safe as we can. When people like policemen or firemen or soldiers go into a dangerous situation they have to overcome those fears to go on, so do WE! Life is dangerous, no one gets out alive! You start dying the minute you are born! But we don’t (I hope) terrorize our kids by telling themselves or ourselves every day, “this could be the day you die!” Yet it COULD be the day any of us die!
We have to make our peace with our own mortality and our own vision of what is after this life (if we believe anything) and accept that we are mortal, that we have an unknown amount of time on this earth, and we might as well enjoy it and live it to the fullest instead of in terror.
I’m not sure if I were offered an opportunity to be “young again” and “do it all over again” I would accept unless I could do it knowing what I know NOW. Of course that’s not possible, so we either enjoy what time we have, or let the psychopath’s abuse rob us of the potential joy! I’ve lost enough time already!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 6:02pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: you, my dear Lady, are priceless!
Amen and amen!
As we age, God please grant us wisdom in exchange for youth and in your case He is.
LOL–Fat or Hairy kicking your lights out. Girl….that is too funny!
Yeah, I told my friend to just bury me out back next to my black horse…I’d like to see his beautiful face when God pulls me outta that grave. 
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 6:33pm
Twice Betrayed says:
*uh, Oxy….I didn’t mean you are old…..ahahahaaaaaa! Youth escapes us all…..but I wouldn’t go back in time either….I do not even think I would if I could know what I do now. I dunno…….haven’t been asked. ;P
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 6:36pm
OxDrover says:
Thank you TB,
You know I do have a sort of twisted sense of humor—my husband did too, and all my boys do! the one line come back, or the smart remark.
The day my husband died, as I rushed to his side the FIRST thing that came to my mind was “I knew you wanted to be creamated, but I thought you wanted to die first!” UGH!!!!!
God, I bit my tongue and didn’t say that, and for months afterwards I beat myself up with the SKILLET for even thinking such a thing! Later, i was talking to a therapist, who also happened to be a friend, and he said to me “What a wonderful thing–what a tribute!” I didn’t understnad it then, but since then I have, and you know, I actually think that my husband would have appreciated that comment. In the worst of circumstances we were always cracking some kind of joke or smart remark, black humor of course, but nevertheless it did keep our spirits up. He was also a survivor too.
At the memorial service his son introduced himself and said, then “Cancer?…..heart attack?…. Stroke….? Airplane crash?…what would dad have preferred?” and you know HE WAS SO RIGHT. He died doing what he loved, we got our chance to say goodbye—actually I broke my finger that morning or I would have been gone. So I now look at a BROKEN FINGER as a BLESSING FROM GOD that allowed me to spend those prescious 8 hours of my husband’s last day with him, and with his mind intact. There are so many “co0incidences” that happen that I see are really gifts from God though they may seem like something “bad” at the monent they happen.
A year and a half before my husband died, two years before my husband died, my FAVORITE JOB OF MY LIFE was terminated from FT to PT and in order to get benefits, I had to find another job. I was DEVESTATED and cried, but I went out and found another job, one that was only TWO days per week, and benefits, a little less money but not much, and I GOT TO STAY HOME THAT LAST YEAR AND A HALF WITH MY HUSBAND 5 days a week, I got to be able to take care of my step dad in his final illness, it was a GODSEND because I woudl never have willingly given up that job I loved so much as director of student health at a private liberal arts college.
So sometimes gifts come to us in the guise of “losses” or disappointments, but i firmly believe that there is a PLAN to the universe. Learning from our challenges, from our mistakes, from our poor choices is what it is all about. I heard something the other day that I thought was pretty profound. “I am a spiritual being on a human journey.” I want to make the most of what is left of my human journey! I can’t “renew” this old body here (and I will be 63 in about 10 days) but I can renew and expand my spiritual being!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 8:09pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: You are one of a kind….and a refreshing breeze to this old world. How wonderful that you have chosen to grow in your life…you’ve accepted the challenge and are coming thru this word making your mark with something to say. I sure do enjoy hearing it too. You are not old…heck, Stevie Nicks is 60 still rockin’ and wearing 4″ heeled boots.-Christie Brinkley is 60 and still wearing mini dresses.
I hear what you are saying tho….this body is moving towards the grave…but our spirits live on.
Keep the faith!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 12:22am
Twice Betrayed says:
* world. Sorry for typos….long fingernails and hard to type on this newly designed keyboard. ahahaha!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 12:25am
henry says:
Duped I have a confession, I have posted many times on this thread, But I didnt read your article until just now. When I saw the the suject ‘hypervigilance and pstd’.I didnt want to revisit those emotions. But I did share comments too others newly in the grip’s of it. Well I remember those horrible feelings. I have overcome them and feel alive again. Even tho I have forgotten the pain the scars are still with me.
My experince was a phenonomon with someone very different. It was unnerving and unhealthy. Hypervigilance is an alter state of turmoil, caused by a colision of two forces, good and bad. Its a battle with-in our selves to take command of our lifes and be who we are. Good. We can not let them take that from us.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:17am
pollyannanomore says:
Ah I didn’t burn the midnight oil! I was a good gal and went to bed early not that it did me any good – I was up at 1am, 2.30, 4.00 and got up at 5 in the end up. I was exhausted today.
I have heard of the sugar thing … I strangely feel like I need it at the moment – it’s kind of comforting. I have been having chocolate too. I will do the right thing though and switch to agave or stevia. Sweet things just numb the pain a bit right now – ice cream and chocolate and fudge! Oh my! My ass is getting big though and that’s not so good
So I will knock it on the head.
The sleep thing – I don’t know what it is. I am pretty sure it isn’t the sugar as it was happening before I was having sugar – started happening few months ago when my morning depression got really urgent to deal with. I would wake in the morning with my biological clock screaming at me “you don’t have kids you don’t have kids you don’t have kids” all running through my head. It’s weird how my body has been communicating with me of late about how urgent it is to get away from him. The pain and muscle tightness has gotten much worse as well.
Thanks TB for affirming my new pet theory about the burnout! I really enjoyed the back and forth we had last night with Henry too – I now understand why everyone has so many multiple posts – it is almost like a conversation. It was so cool to know you were typing in reply on your side of the world at the same time as me – sorry if I kept you up though! You must get your sleep!
I like The bullyonline site – I know I do have serious issues but can’t take time off work – not even a day at the moment. I get a break in a few weeks time and will do my best to relax and restore then and consider what the next step is. It is definitely an abusive workplace – the expectations are crazy and there is no time to be sick or have a crisis or anything going on in your personal life.
I was reading a book by Dale Carnegie about worrying “How to stop worrying and start living” and he outlines your philosophy Oxy, EB and others – you can die a thousand deaths in your mind but most eventualities don’t happen. That said Velveeta – only you know the safety of your own situation. And that can be said for any of us.
I had so many sage thoughts reading through everyone’s comments and now I can’t think of them! Maybe they weren’t so sage after all! Oh someone said they had spent years analysing the P’s behaviour – I DID THAT TOO!! Years and years when not crying in the depths of despair over it I would pick myself up and start googling for self help and relationship help sites. Nothing I seemed to come across seemed to fit though because yes at times he seemed depressed, at times he was angry, he never was enthused or excited – except when trying to impress people he didn’t know (that was quite a revolting act to watch).
I didn’t know a thing about personality disorders before this – had no clue at all. It so used to hurt when he would lie and betray me. I remember it hurting as though he had kicked me in the guts – I would literally double over and sob at him “Why? Why would you do that to me?” I just feel so stupid to have lost so many years. I am really struggling with that. I know many people have lost longer than me, but I think it is especially bad for me because those were the bulk of my fertile years and if he had just told the truth “I am not capable of being a husband and I don’t want kids because I hate them.” then I could have moved on in time. What kind of person lies to someone about something so important to them? I asked him outright many times “You don’t want kids do you?” And he would barefaced lie to me. But there were no plans – just like there was no plan for anything. If I wanted anything doing I had to do it myself with him dragging his ass and sulking behind me and me trying to engage him and cheer him up and involve him – what a fool have I been?
I bet you’re all beautiful at 60 and 63 – you are so authentically yourselves … I can almost smell your scent off your words. I bet you have a light that people are drawn to and a laugh that can fill a room. I am 33. My upper eye lids are just sagging onto the eye and the unders are lined with a thousand smile memories. I have hair that is going grey and am starting to get lines around my mouth. My boobs are going south pretty fast and my belly is lined with stretchmarks despite not bearing any off spring. According to a plastic surgeon friend I have ‘thin skin’. Thanks Mom and Dad!
I had hoped to be a young mama and run around with my little ones imparting all my knowledge and love to them. Now I am afraid. I know the stats for women over 35 and I know the realities of infertility. Even if I manage to heal enough to find a healthy relationship I may be too too late. That just breaks my heart. So maybe I find another way to fill my heart – I was thinking that today. Maybe that’s just the way the cookie crumbles. I am not ready to give up on it yet but maybe there are other futures for me.
You’re wonderful people – just wanted to let you know that. I think I might be getting a bit better, I only cried eight times today. Once on the street behind sunnies and several times int he toilet at work and several times at home. It is not so far beneath the surface but I am shocked at the volume. Hopefully I get a break from it soon. It is very tiring and my eyes get swollen quickly so I can’t hide evidence of it! Anyway- much love to you all from me. This site is helping me feel a bit stronger.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:25am
ErinBrock says:
Henry:
Hi babe…..
” Hypervigilance is an alter state of turmoil, caused by a colision of two forces, good and bad. Its a battle with-in our selves to take command of our lifes and be who we are.”
Your post was so well stated!!!!
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving…..Ya know….we have a whole LOT to be thankful for!
I was sitting on the beach 2 nights ago…..clear, beautiful sky…..and here comes a shooting star….
Well……my wish wasn’t for the S to die……
It was ABOUT ME!!!!
I’m thankful that I can now wish things for ME……
(cuz….he’ll get what he’s got coming without me wasting a shooting star on him!!!)
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:50am
Isabell says:
Amen!!!! Erin.
Truth vindicates itself.
Use your shooting stars to cast YOUR dreams into the universe, where the future belongs to you, my dear.
Bravo!!!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:56am
ErinBrock says:
Pollyanna~
I know sleep/lack of can be affiliated to many causes…..and logically stress is a huge one!
What delayed my diagnosis when I had thyroid issues was the ‘obvious’ my separation and the stress that came with it….
So no one ever looked at my thyroid…
Well…..I tell everyone….GET YOUR THYROID CHECKED!!!
You would be amazed at the effects an off kiltered thyroid will do!
Sleep disturbances are one of them.
Also…….HEY watch your mouth girl……NOT ALL OF US ARE 60-63…….although, I may look 90…..I’m only 42!!!
Each wrinkle, each line, each sag…..IS EARNED…..it’s a roadmap to your life! LOVE YOURSELF!!!!!!
My hope for you would be to remain in the HERE AND NOW! WE can’t worry about yesterday and we can’t worry about our tomorrows. Also, please try and LIVE WITH NO REGRETS!!!
Really, we are who we are TODAY, because of what we have lived……you are a good person with immeasurable value…..
Don’t waste it on regrets…..
HAVE FAITH…..it will all work out….the way it should…..
Don’t die a thousand deaths, only to live for 100 years…..
He is a con, a spineless piece of shit, not capable of telling any sort of truths…..His own, deep rooted shame and guilt is his truth……and that will NEVER surface. THAT IS WHAT HIS LEGACY IS!.
YOU have the opportunity to make a good life for yourself…..take it and run with it!!! NEVER LOOK BACK!!!!
I gotta go to bed….the oil is starting to burn.
I can smell it already!
XXOO
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:02am
ErinBrock says:
Oh Isabell your always so uplifting…..
You’ve got the power girl!!!!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:04am
henry says:
Eb That shooting star was yours – it fell out of the sky just for you…Happy Turkey Day to all
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:05am
Isabell says:
pollyannanomore:
I wonder what it is about the P/S/N’s that bring out the writer in all of us?
Polly, I love the way you express yourself with the written word. As I love the style of so many other writers here on LF.
Sometimes I wonder what’s the purpose of enduring the likes of those we’ve all loved, who’ve thought nothing of breaking our hearts, draining our accounts, distroying our children’s dreams.
And, I wonder of the Divine plan and the reasoning behind gifting we survivors with a passion to write.
I once heard that writing has the same theraputic affect as sitting through a session of psychotherapy; physiologically speaking. The heart rate slows, blood pressures lowers, cortisol reduces, and a number of other affects.
It’s a mystery to me that P/S/N associate with those who are compelled to write. Or, is that we are compelled to write because of P/S/N’s?
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:07am
Isabell says:
I embrace all of you her on LF. A point of contact, connection, compassion (the three R’s) the likes no other site, link, or otherwise sophisticated service provides.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING… TO ALL HERE.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:34am
witsend says:
Pollyannanomore,
I know that you are deeply saddened that you don’t have children. I just never realized your age before reading it in the above post though.
Sweetie you are still young enough to have a baby
Thank GOD you didn’t have one with your X S/P/N. I know it is hard for you to see it this way but it could have been a disaster. So many of the posters here have to face the everyday problems of sharing custody with these monsters.
Not to mention the worry of the genetic factors.
You still have child bearing years ahead of you!
All the more reason for you to want to focus on your healing journey from the toxic man that was in your life. Don’t let him take from you anymore than what he has already taken.
Your future very well might still include a baby in your arms.
Don’t give up on this, if this is your dream.
You might have envisioned yourself in your 20’s barefoot and pregnant but the same dream can come true in your 30’s.
I had my youngest at 39 and I got pregnant the first time we were together.
And I had had my first child 10 years before and hadn’t been able to get pregnant since with my x husband in the years following.
Because so many years had passed I just assumed it was me that couldn’t get pregnant again. However it was actually the sperm doner (my x).
Sometimes we have no idea what the future holds in store for us. I would have never dreamed another baby was in my future 20 some years ago….
More and more women are having babys later in life than what was common a generation ago.
Don’t give up that dream just yet….
xxooo
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 11:55am
Twice Betrayed says:
Polly: Girl…you are only 33?! Listen, ‘kid’….ahahaaaa! I would kick 33 in the butt now and rock on!
You are still a pup! 
Actually, your 30’s are the best times in life IMO….young enough to still look great but old enough to know some things. You are in the prime of life!!! 
And if ever I say anything that helps anyone understand that really these p’s are not worth the powder it would take to blow their heads off….then I have not wasted all my young years on them. ahahahaaa! I tell ya….if I see a’ broken wing male’ coming my way….I stick a verbal sticker on them and send them home to mama. ;P
I enjoyed talking with you….no problem in staying up late….I confess: I like it. I know it’s not good for me…and I am very disciplined in most areas of my life…but I do like staying up late and sleeping late! Thirty lashes with a pillow!!!!
Happy Thanksgiving, LF! I will include a thank you prayer for this blog and all my supportive friends! And a special TY that we are free, becoming free and will be free! * hugs to all!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 12:58pm
Twice Betrayed says:
PS Polly: I know you are upset over not having kids right now….but to shed some humor into the situation-my older daughter cannot have children [ovarian cysts...cannot carry] and she cried a lot about it….then my son had this little redheaded boy from hades and she said to me: “Mom, this kid has made me ok with having no children….cause what if that’s what I got?” Then we clicked our water glasses together, slapped a high five…knuckles, then shouted, “GIRL POWER!”
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 1:02pm
OxDrover says:
While thyroid can cause sleep problems (among other things) and stress can cause sleep problems, and depression and PTSD can cause sleep problems etc. it is ALWAYS A GOOD IDEA to get a GOOD PHYSICAL CHECK UP.
Being a medical person I often self-diagnose, “Oh, it’s just xyz, I will be okay in a while” and do not go to the doctor.
A couple of summers ago I started feeling like pounded dog manure, WEAK, “hot flashes” (and I’m long past menapause) and I just put it down to feeling the heat—this went on until I was so weak I could hardly stand—I had ROCKY MOUNTAIN SPOTTED FEVER and it is a wonder I did not die from this very toxic infection that 7% of the people who get it die, even WITH treatment and 20% if they don’t get treatment.
If you have “symptoms” go get checked out. A physician can do simple blood tests in the office and tell if you have thyroid problems and other physical problems and/or infections all from one blood draw. Being “tired all the time” can be a symptom of MANY THINGS. My best friend, a bout 10 years ago came to my clinic complaining of being “TATT” which was our office short hand of “tired all the time” and guess what, she was damn near dead with Leukemia and had been running on “fumes” for weeks. If she had been another few DAYS in getting into my clinic she would have DIED. As it was she spent a year in the hospital.
While we KNOW stress does a number on us, and lack of sleep does a number on us and depression does a number on us, for goodness sakes if you feel BAD physically GET A CHECK UP at the very least! I also, just FYI, went YEARS explaining away the chronic pain from SLEEP APNEA before I finally got checked and found out I was stopping breathing for long periods hundreds of times a night—no wonder I didn’t feel good and felt like I was beaten every morning when I “woke” up because I had not slept properly in YEARS. I am now THE MOST MOTIVATED sleep apnea patient in the world and though the machine is a pain in the butt sometimes, I use it FAITHFULLY because I FEEL SO MUCH BETTER.
Pain, tiredness, etc are all SYMPTOMS of something that is “not right” in your body/mind so before you ASSUME that it is JUST stress or PTSD or whatever, GET A CHECK UP!
This is on the list of taking care of YOURSELF FIRST.
Polly, I second Wits comment about be HAPPY you didn’t have a child with this guy—and BTW there are several options in having a child, one is adoption or fostering, and two is artificial insemination, although in both of those cases i would do my best to screen out children/sperm from genes that might be high in psychopathic traits.
I used to wake up (after my husband’s death) with my mind racing saying “you’ll be alone the rest of your life” and depending on a relationship to keep me from being lonely etc. and maybe your vision of having this “child” is your vision of what will “make you happy”—in the end, no pne can make us happy or keep us from being happy, happiness depends not on what we have but on what we ARE and Who we ARE.
If I per chance do find a good relationship I can enjoy it, but it will NOT be what makes me happy, or the lack of it making me unhappy.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 1:15pm
pollyannanomore says:
Oh that lifted my heart too see all those kind comments for me this morning. Thankyou so much everyone for taking the time – I am so grateful for anything now … I always knew kindness was a gift and I was more of a giver, but now I just so appreciate gentleness and love … and it is all the more precious in knowing what each of you has been through – you could have turned cold and horrible and selfish, but your hearts are expansive … if a little wiser this time round!
Today he is leaving. And the original wound that I cannot even recall is being evoked. The time my father left when I was three. I don’t even remember it. Every time he talked about leaving though I would feel this tremendous pain. He has left several times before and come back and each time the pain is dreadful. This will be the last leaving and I think he knows it.
He has hidden from me for days and days and when he tried to do his traditional abusive behaviours of closing a door in my face or saying ‘I don’t want to talk about it’ or ‘That’s in the past’ I have named the technique he uses loudly outside his door – “That’s called INVALIDATION and DENIAL and REWRITING HISTORY – they’re all methods of psychological abuse and you have done them for years. I won’t stay silent about what you did anymore.”
So today I woke up dreading the day ahead and already welling up with tears at the unfairness of it all and the pain that was already starting even though I told myself ‘You have cried enough – time to change things now.’ And I log on here to find such fellowship and understanding from people who have never met me in person. Thankyou thankyou thankyou. It’s making me cry even though I said I wouldn’t – but it’s good tears this time – you will all know what I mean!
Oxy – my physical pain is under the care of a rheumy at the moment. I have had every test and scan known to man and have been to every possible specialist. This rheumy ran a test that nobody else had in the seven yrs I had the pain – a vit d one and found I was dangerously low – I liked the metaphor of it – he literally stole my sunshine
Apparently as the levels come up the pain should start subsiding but if not I will next go to an endocrinologist.
Witsend and Oxy – I am glad I don’t have a child with HIM – that would have been a nightmare. I have seen his lack of concern with animals and using them as pawns. It would have destroyed me to see him do that with an innocent child. And you are right about the options … it’s not necessarily too late.
Witsend = thanks for sharing your experience – that gives me some hope – you hear so many horror stories about pregnancy after 35. I guess there are many older mothers these days though and maybe there are benefits to waiting.
Oxy – why does that waking script happen>? I haven’t read anything about it, but guess most docs would just put it down to general depression – the mind races in depression. I don’t want to go on antidepressant meds – have no problem with people who do but having tried them in the past I would rather just go through the pain without them. I wonder if the morning script is something particular to these types of relationships or a symptom of PTSD.
TB LOL @ your daughter. Teachers sometimes say our work is the ultimate contraceptive
That must be hard for her though – please slip in an anonymous hug from me next time you see her.
Isabell – I second your three factors present in bucketloads on this site
Happy Thanksgiving to you!
I did my graduate work on story narrative and have written scripts and frameworks for years – I ironically wrote about the relationship while in it in an effort to understand it. I think what makes the writing so good here is that everyone is so empathetic – they are so in touch with their humanity, emotions, thoughts and feelings and have languages to express them. I wonder how many other people here are learning to craft story … I wouldn’t call myself a writer as I am not successful yet but it is something I enjoy immensely and something he tried to take away from me and devalue – he would steal my ideas, create arguments, deny, devalue – all the classic abusive behaviours and I thought I was no good at writing. Ironically I have met up with an old friend from school who also writes and he thinks my ideas are great – terrific affirmation even if I never make a name for myself or get anything published!
I really enjoyed a book called Vein of Gold by Julia Cameron – she writes about the spiritual elements of writing – how we find our own archetypes and reflect our own life stories. I am trying really hard to use this horrible experience as food to create so I can see some meaning in it. I went to a workshop years ago for people devastated by grief and took as a gift a mosaic made from mirror which to me symbolised making something beautiful from the shattered shards of broken lives. Does anyone else depict their experience creatively in some way?
EB – thanks for being you
I feel cheered greatly seeing your encouraging messages and after reading them went and hugged the dogs and said ‘We’re going to be just fine aren’t we? We don’t need that useless dumbf***k around. We’re going to go to the beach a LOT this summer – not just talk about it like he did!’ And then I cried again cause they licked my face and they’re so beautiful and trusting! But GOOD tears 
Not painful tears. I can’t recall the last time I cried bittersweet tears that weren’t pain filled and wrenching – I used to in my younger days cry at a beautiful piece of music or a person I loved.
Well the sun is shining – summer is coming. And I am going to get a big bunch of flowers for my mum to say thanks for all she’s done listening to me each week at Sunday coffee and holding on loosely while I tried to make this stupid relationship work. I am going out tonight with a friend from school to a Christmas function and will make sure I am not here to see the sad ‘moving out’ spectacle. I am not going to isolate anymore nor be afraid of his jealousy – time to connect with humanity again.
Many many thanks to everyone – hope you have a wonderful thanksgiving weekend!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Polly,
Glad this is turning out to be an uplifting day! This is our National Thanksgiving day here in US and now it is YOUR thanksgiving day too, you are RID OF HIM!
As far as the AD meds, there ar ehundreds of different kinds, and sometimes one won’t do for a person and another will. Actually trying to “tough it out” without medication is sort of like someone saying, “oh, I have heart problems but I am not going to take medication, I will just tough it out.”
The HIGH stress actually causes hormonal imbalances in our brains that are permanent and the medication usually does help, but I suggest you go to a psychiatrist not your family doc for an RX evaluation. Family docs don’t usually know much about AD medications. You may not have to be on AD meds for your entire life, but as much as I hate to take medication, it makes my life livable. I am down to half the dose I was on but probably will have to stay on that, and that’s OK with me. Whatever works, but just don’t go against AD medication out of hand. See a “shrink” and at least get evaluated for another kind of AD meds.
Glad you are not isolating either and glad summer is coming for you. I just heard my step son (who works for oil companies al over the world) is going down under in January for 9 weeks, so he will miss our winter here and he is excited! LOL
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:54pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Polly:
Thanks for the hugs for my daughter ! Very kind of you.
Believe it or not….I made it thru all this without any meds of any kind. I did use natural stress remedies like Rescue Remedy [pure flower essences] and natural breathing exercises both of which I still do. I’ve never used any type of conventional AD drugs altho my two daughters both have and said they helped them. They weaned themselves off them. I also used/use exercise and music for healing and to express my emotions. I also found it very helpful to just talk it all out with a loyal friend that was willing to stand by me. And now I don’t talk about it often [except here] and if I do…it’s in a more clinical way because of all the healing that has taken place.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 2:41pm
OxDrover says:
Exercise is a natural mood lifter and also burns off the stress hormones as well.
The sugar gives you a “carbohydrate” high which also decreases depression, that is one reason we eat more in the winter time when sunlight is low.
Getting sunlight on your eyes is also a good mood lifter as well. so Exercising out side in the sunshine and light is a good thing to do, as well as healthy for body and mind! And it doesn’t cost a darned thing! Of course when we are depressed or “down” we tend to hole up inside and not exercise, but by making ourselves get OUTSIDE in the light and move, we help ourselves in lots of ways.
Using every single thing that we know is good for us and has no bad side effects is important, medication or not. I k now that some people can “get through”t hings witout medication, but this is why I recommend that anyone who is feeling depressed GET AN EVALUATION BY A PSYCHIATRIST (not just your family doctor) to see how severe your symptoms are and to monitor whether or not you need medication and if so, what particular kind. Family docs are not familiar with all the available ones or all their effects and/or side effects.
You wouldn’t go to a friend to recommend your treatment for heart problems, so I don’t think a “friend” is always the best one to diagnose or treat depression either.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 4:35pm
Cat says:
Twice Betrayed, music is a wonderful tool for me. I can change my mood just by listening to certain kinds of music. I put my headphones on and simply float away. Sugar, though I love it, is NOT my friend. I can’t handle the crash after the high, so I try to do it in moderation, though there are days like yesterday when it’s really tough.
Ox, the sunshine is very important. I agree with you on this. This is the time of year where many have to work harder to get that on a regular basis because the days are short and the dark is long and then when to sugar and so on… I like your analogy of going to see a friend for heart problems and agree with you, it’s best to see a specialist in any area of medicine when needed.
Good stuff on here!
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 4:55pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy; you are so right on sunlight! You know, when my x pulled that run off now four years ago I was more broken than when I walked out forever. Because it was so unexpected when he cleaned out the bank accounts, closed the cc’s and left me penniless and w/o a job at the moment-since I had received a full grant to write a book. Blew me out.. but I had animals to care for-many rescued dogs/cats that I rescued, fostered and placed in good homes thru my rescue connections–I also had large animals [horses] so this forced me to get outside and WORK. [my rescue friends sent me food for my animals and family/friends helped me money wise until I could get an outside job-which resulted in the loss of my grant]. I also retained an attorney and was able to get some money from my x after a court hearing…but this all took time. At any rate-point is: being forced to continue to work…..especially physical work outside really helped me make it thru! [ By the time this x decided to return....I no longer wanted him. However, he trumped me money wise and I was forced to allow his return for two years-I used that time to work and save money to leave on-which I did]. I still have several dogs outside and I enjoy my walks/care/play with them in the sunlight. Really lifts my spirits, clears my mind. I do things now that are uplifting instead of being forced into ‘nut management’ like I was with the ‘nutty one’. LOL!
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 4:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Cat: I cannot do sugar. It’s like it’s plain poison to me! I wake up during the night coughing and just feel awful for several days..until it clears my system.
Sunlight in winter: I use full spectrum lighting in my kitchen and I have a full spectrum lamp in my bedroom. I keep it on during rainy/winter days-really helps me feel better.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 5:02pm
OxDrover says:
It really ticks me off with frustration (not anger) when people are told that depression or any other mental issue is simply a matter of “mind over matter” when they would not feell that way about a heart or kidney problem (well at least most sane people wouldn’t) is just a matter of “mind over matter” or if they had an appendix burst they wouldn’t say “oh, I’ll just tough it out, it will be okay.”
I love the ads they are running now about strokes, where this guy has an ARROW through his chest and he is talking to some clerks and they keep asking “Sir, are you okay?” and he keeps saying “Oh, it’s nothing, it will be OK.”
The signs of heart attacks and strokes are fairly well defined yet too many people are in DENIAL about the signs, the pain, etc. and WAY too many people are that way with depression, “Oh, I just have to not be a baby, it will lpass.”
Depression is a REAL CHEMICAL illness like diabetes, and it is something that medication (in some cases when Rx’d by a TRAINED physician or health care provider) can be controlled easily. There is no more shame in taking an antidepressant than there is in taking insulin. Yet many people persist in either ignorance or denial or both—or they take their hair dressers diagnosis and treatment recommendation.
Yet we each make our CHOICES and we must live with the results…I wouldn’t want to try to force anyone to do anything against their will, but it is still frustrating to see people not treat treatable problems that make life so much better, when there ARE safe and effective options.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 8:27pm
ErinBrock says:
Pollyanna:
I read the sense of relief in your post!!! The weight lifted off your shoulders.
Today, tomorrow or the next may be hard, may contain only moments of fear/sadness……but I beleieve the prevailing feeling will be of relief!
KEEP FOCUSED ON YOU!!!!
Keep talking to yourself, keep telling yourself good words……
YOU WILL BE OKAY….YOU WILL!!!!
I remember the first time the ex S moved out…..it was crazy….he took the drawers from the chests, but left the chests….he took all the art off the walls….left the house in disarray……for us to come home to……
It was an initial shock…..oh, because how he loved us…..but then I immediately remembered WHO had done this….just another confirmation….
Lean on all your support and keep those doggie kisses coming…..for a time, all I had was my girly…my old lab…..she saw me through……I lost her in July…..when it was ALL over……
I am really glad he’s leaving, I hope you plan on going NC….there will be games played by him…..keep in mind….YOU DON”T HAVE TO PARTICIAPTE!!!!
TODAY IS THE FIRST DAY OF THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!!!
You have been grieving for some time…..so your ahead of the game…..keep your feelings up and your positive attitude….know you will have good days and bad days…..try to keep a balance….
Don’t allow your highs to be too high, NOR your lows tooo low.
I at one point was very low of Vit D…..still take it, at one point took 50,000 ICU 3x a week….
Low vit d can affect moods……it takes some time to get it back up…..but head out in that sunshine and feel free girl….
You WILL feel better all around if you can minimize your stress and maintain control of your life!!!!
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!
XXO
EB
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 8:51pm
notagain says:
Wow..I understand this…but it was my hypervigilence that saved me in court. Long long story, butI had everything documented by a professional, and then told the professional about whwat I new his vindictive next move would be against me, because I wanted to get help for our four year old child, and he didn’t. I wanted counseling for our son, he didn’t, so his sick move, was to accuse my 8 year old child, of molesting our four year old child. Talk about hypervigilence. He did everything in his power to try and break me away from my children and break my children away from eachother, becaue he new it was killing me, and it was the best form of control he had over me. We had been split up for quite a while, and he still had control over me, using our son. I know everything about PTSD. It is a nightmare in your mind and body that seems unescapable. I still suffer, but not as bad. He has changed a little, now that our son is older, and can tell a court that his father is an ashole, with a temper…who severely emotionally abused me and my two children for seven years…plus.
the funny thing though, is when he filed that false claim against my 8 year old son, I really didn’t save us…because the court through the case right out. I walked in with a folder 3 inches thick with evidence against him. They never looked at it. He thought for sure he could walk in and break my family apart, simply by telling the court his “made up lie.” He wwalked in empty handed, and when the court asked for our son to come in, ofcourse he refused. It was his plan to make sure that I had to seperate my children in order to have my son come home on my time. He thought he was going to punish me, by making me find day care for my other son, and splitting my boys up. It makes me so angry to look back at this. He is still an ashole until this day…but better, because he knows he can’t wiin in the court. He has mounted his own evidence up with his reputation where he works as a teacher, and has been threatened to lose his job due to his anger issues. He can stab you in the stomach in the blink of an eye, with his words, with out cause or reason.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:14am
duped says:
notagain,
I feel for you. It’s hard to recover from PTSD when you share a child/children with the S. It is a relief, though, when a precedence in your favor is established in court. Once that’s done, it’s difficult for the S to have it reversed. Which means you can relax some and smell the roses with your boys!
Enjoy the reprieves between the insanity episodes. It strengthens your influence over your children and affords windows of normalcy. I also suggest, if you haven’t already done so, read “Just Like His Father” by Liane Leedom. My son is nothing like his father but I have still found the book insightful, affirming and helpful. Just one book of many in my arsenal against evil
Namaste
Duped
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:32am
Spirit40 says:
I remember back couple months ago I went to the courthouse it was around late afternoon and it was a friday… I guess they dont want to take your information that late in the day….they told me ” the computers down” come back on monday…. this was to file a restraining order… I said MONDAY… well isnt their a “live person” to take my information on “paper”…. No come back Monday…..
how can people who get up the courage to do this? and then to be turned away?? feel safe it would have made a huge difference for me… but the girl just sat their on the phone … chatting away like yeah how was your weekend…. oh she wants to know if there is anyone that can help now what if something happens….just come back on Monday! People in that position must have some kind of training on how to treat others, turning them away is a disservice..injustice not justice…. its not crying wolf… its not being afraid and seeking help and asking and finding courage… only to be sent away…. wonder if I can complain to the city?…. its only a piece of paper right what would they do…. sit on their arrsseesss…….
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:39am
duped says:
In reference to the discussion on depression and meds…
I agree with Oxy that it’s a matter of choice. Certainly no one can MAKE you take a pill that may significantly CHANGE YOUR LIFE for the better!
It is also true, though, that stress, anxiety, depression and the like create chemical imbalances in the brain; increased uptake of this, decreased absorption of that, etc. etc. Not to mention an increased risk of heart attack, diabetes and several other nasty systemic byproducts of living in a state of upset.
If you are committed to feeling better but just CAN’T seem to do it, GET SOME HELP. I tell my fifteen year old, who sees a psychiatrist for meds and psychologist for therapy, it’s a sign of health to get help. Of course, like any fifteen year old, he thinks he’s the ONLY teen in therapy :-0
I too see a therapist every other week and, while I’m not specifically on antidepressants, I do take anti-seizure medication for nerve damage in one of my hands, that I’ve come to embrace as a mood uplifter. If I forget to take it, either the pain in my hand reminds me or my mood does.
My hand, while injured twenty years ago, never hurt as bad as it did after the stuff hit the fan with my S. Chronic pain can also be a symptom of stress/anxiety/depression. I’m fortunate to have found a medication that helps with both
The healthiest people I know are in or have been in therapy. If you try one therapist and you’re not confident in the relationship, find another. I’ve had many over the past two decades, one for seven years, another for three, the latest for two thus far. One was great but I moved, one was good but I out grew him and we said good bye with mutual respect. Each one was helpful in a different way.
I don’t go because I’m in a state of crisis or impending doom. I go so that I may have objective feedback in a life I want filled with continual growth; mentally, emotionally and spiritually. At 39, my body, no matter how much I exercise, is still in a state of atrophy. I’d like to believe there is an inverse relationship between the decay I can’t prevent and the psychological growth I CAN perpetuate. And, some how, life just seems to get better and better!
Namaste
Duped
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:55am
susangrisanti says:
My first feeling is that you were just
too busy & distracted when the
curious green toppings showed
up on your plate.
At times in my life when I
let myself get ‘too busy’
was when I would make
mistakes I would regret later.
In 1985 I ended up married
for 5 months to
an ‘S’ because I was in sleep
deprivation from college &
supporting myself. If I had
only taken time then to look for
red flags I never would have
fallen for him.
Now at 53 I’ve learned to never
hurry anything. Not give into
people’s deadlines & pressure.
You are a very strong individual,
I admire your courage to persevere
like you did.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 9:29am
OxDrover says:
WARNING: Erin don’t mean to bust your bubble about Vitramin D but there are four vitamins that are TOXIC, and I mean TOXIC in excess they are K,A,D, & E (I remember them by making a “word” “Kade” out of them.) These four vitamins are stored in FAT not water soluble and in great excess can literally KILL you, so the megadozing with any of these four vitamins can be really bad. The body will store as much excess in your fat as it can, but when the fat is used the excess comes out with it. Like on a diet or if you lose weight because you are very ill, etc.
Taking a daily “multivitamin” though I highly recommend because we tend not to eat right when we are stressed. Plus, getting out in the sunshine (natural vitamin D) and exercise (burns off stress hormones and raises the feel good chemicals in our brains)
Your advice to Polly is great though! She needs to FOCUS on herself! Be good to herself.
Took all the drawers but left the chests? ROTFLMAO what an arse!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 10:01am
runningaway says:
OxDrover,
My doctor just told me today that I should take 50,000 mg of Vitamin D per week for a month. I guess I’d better look into the safety in that.
As to the stress, my S mom was here for Thanksgiving and I didn’t realize how stressed I was until she left. I went to sleep for 12 hours.
I’m so glad to hear from others who are dealing with an S mom – most are dealing with spouses. Those of us with aging S parents are in a different place. How do you stay safe AND have a relationship with siblings who aren’t on the same page? Talk about stress!
For example, mom is running a con job on some friends. My sister told her that I had been talking to the couple’s daughter about the fact that my mother has a lot of money. Mom showed them some sort of fiancial “proof” that she has next to nothing so she can steal an apartment from them. Anyway, mom knows that the jig is up and I’m holding my breath waiting for the bomb to fall in my lap. Mom was curiously friendly over Thanksgiving – creepy.
Someone said earlier that they’ll be really nice to you so you let your guard down and then they lower the hammer (sorry for mixing my metaphors). I think that’s so true. But it’s so awful living like this.
My mom and I don’t live in the same state. And I know I have to remove myself from the relationship. Easily done except that I feel guilty about leaving her to my brother and sister. Gotta deal with that. And, I have to deal with a sister who is my best friend but who very much wants to believe that her mother loves her. She and I had a big argument over mom’s intentions and my sister’s lack of loyalty. We’re not speaking to each other and I’m heartbroken. I know it’s all my mother’s doing – a long story of triangulation.
In the Wizard of Oz, Dorothy is asked what she’s learned. She says that happiness is in her own backyard. Then she asks the Good Witch why she didn’t just tell her that in the beginning and the good witch says, “Because you wouldn’t have believed me – you had to learn it for yourself.”
That’s so true. I know I have to give my sister time to learn it for herself and hope that she’ll come back to me. But I feel like crying a river over all the horrible things my mother has done to us – and this is the worst.
How do I run away from my mother and help out my siblings when my mother needs to move, etc…? How can I help my sister and remain safe? I could use a bit of advice.
I also don’t sleep at night. I guess this is affecting me far more than I realized.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 10:54am
sistersister says:
“Are you reacting because the situation REQUIRES it? Or are you reacting because you’re DRIVEN to?” is one of the more profound statements I’ve ever read on this site. It really resonated with me — not so much in my intimate relationships as in some others. (Let’s just say, I aspire to being hypervigilant, but I lack the discipline required.)
I think the whole point here was, this person was so hypervigilant, she missed something essential. Ironically, not vigilant at all. Couldn’t see the forest for the trees.
I hear that ding-ding-ding go off in my head.
Also, I’m struggling with some volunteer work I do occasionally, some public relations for a poorly run nonprofit. You can always tell the codependents on the e-mail list: We have to do something about this; we have to respond; who’s going to do it?; OK, I will. The “OK, I will” is usually hyper-responsible me. What I need to say instead is, Why don’t you morons have a professional public relations team in place? Why is this run like the church bake sale — waiting until enough blue-haired ladies show up to make cookies? What the heck am I enabling here? What kind of sociopaths start a nonprofit and then wait for the patsies to show up to do their PR?
Just ranting — against myself, mainly. Time to let myself off the hook, huh?
Let it crash. Watch it go boom. Boom good, rescue bad.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:00am
ErinBrock says:
Oxy:
My Vit D blood level was 9 When MD Anderson specialist Rx’d the 50,000 script. It took 5 months for the Vit D blood work to come back ‘in range’.
I have been back to low (although not that low) for each 3 month blood test since.
I take OTC Vit. D nightly.
With the Thyriod problems…..I only wish I could lose some weight!!!!
Thanks for the info.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:08am
sistersister says:
Off-topic: I noticed the comments to “Hello Ladies and Gentlemen, I’m Not a Sociopath” are closed. I wanted to thank you again for posting that wonderful, humorous, sad article. I sent it to my mother after I first read it, and we talked over the weekend.
Mom said she immediately recognized her brother-in-law. I can’t tell you how healing it has been for her finally to realize, after her sister’s death, what really happened and why it didn’t make any sense. Her sister, my aunt, was in the grip of a sociopath.
Naively enough, she reconciled with Aunt Barb just before her death. It was the right thing to do, but she went one step further, thinking it meant it was OK to “forgive” what they did — they attempted to steal $10K from her, back in the ’70s, when that was a lot of money, and when my mom was a struggling divorcee. She fought to get every penny of that money back over the years and thought it was finally “in the past.” She took pity on her poor widowed brother-in-law, and they went out to breakfast a few times. Finally, it became clear to her that he had no recollection of ever doing anything wrong (!).
That was always clear to me.
She’d already given up on Larry, one last time after 30-some years. And then I sent her your satirical “speech.” She loved it. Thanks, Steve. Really. My mom waited almost 35 years for that perfect description, and I’ve waited just as long to tell everyone in the family just what I think of it all. Now that my cousin — his daughter, my beloved youngest cousin — has run off to follow her dream to become a painkiller addict, I’ve taken off the kid gloves I’ve worn so long in deference to the two girls. I proudly tell my mother’s story, about her courage and integrity, to anyone who will listen.
And to hell with my uncle’s reputation in that little town. He messed with the wrong 14-year-old that day they rummaged through my mom’s legal papers to erase that loan, thinking I didn’t really see that. What kind of unreality were they in? It turns out, complete unreality. Utter, 100% self-delusion.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:21am
OxDrover says:
Dear Running away,
If your physician checked your blood levels and recommended that dose, I would probably go with that, s/he did not apparently recommend that dose for an extended period of time. Many people ARE deficient because we wear sun screen and are not outside enough (the skin manufacutues it from sunshine) It is when people take HIGH doses for extended periods of time that they get into trouble.
I know it is difficult when “mom is the abuser/con”
There is a link to BloggerT’s website on the left side of here “when mom is the abuser” and there are some good articles there.
I am my egg donor’s only child, and so I don’t have to contend with sibs, though my 3 first cousins on that side (the children of Uncle Monster, her brother) are as close as I have to sibs, but I iam not close to any of them really, the male cousin lives close, and he is the most damaged I think of the three from the abuse by their father, but he is my egg donor’s power of attorney now, because she didn’t trust me any longer and took away my POA over her business. she gave it to my son C and his WIFE the P, who of course stole the egg donor’s money and tried to kill her husband C—
After it all calmed down, the egg donor offered me back the POA and so on, but she just wanted to “pretend none of this happened and start over” NOPE—-I’m not going to play that game any more.
I assume your mom is still active and has as much of her mind as she ever did, and still doesn’t have a moral compass.
I know you love your sister, but there is no way you can make her see what she is DELIBERATELY BLIND TO—she is in denial, the thought of learning and knowing that her mother doesn’t really love her, never loved her, is incapable of loving her, is so POTENITALLY PAINFUL for her, she can’t accept it, so she DENIES it.
That is normal behavior for anyone who has lost something they had or thought they had. It is almost impossible to break that denial except in the case of a death of someone where there is NO chance that the person is alive. In cases where children have been kidnapped and gone for 20+ years, the parents many times die believing their child is alive. It happens, but not often, about like winning the lotto, the odds are so long and against you, but they have to hang on to that holpe, that belief that their child is not dead in order to not face the terrible pain of admitting that s/he probably is.
We all want our mother to love us, and I honestly thought mine did too, until that fateful day when after all she had done to me, how she had devalued me, shown NO MERCY OR PITY FOR MY PAIN, NO COMPASSION, NO EMPATHY, but looked at me with total disgust as I begged her to believe me….and then she wanted to pretend NONE OF IT EVER HAPPENED? NOPE!!! The pain she inflicted was so great, it made it clear she didn’t love me, because NO ONE WHO CARED ANYTHING FOR ANYONE COULD DEVALUE THE PERSON THE WAY SHE DID ME.
So sometimes it takes a really harsh devaluation to SNAP you out of the denial. Sometimes peo0ple hang on to the denial even after the person they love beats, shoots, stabs, or otherwise gravely injures them in a rage—and still they can’t let go.
I suggest tht you read “The Betrayal Bond” it is in the LoveFraud store and by golly it will show you, I think, just what your sister is going through. There’s another one I recommend too, “If you had controlling parents” by Dan Neuharth, Ph.D. It is quite a good book.
Your mother may “only” be a borderline or histrionic personality disorder, it doesn’t matter WHAT the particular diagnosis would be if she were professionally diagnosed, the bottom line, cut to the chase is she is DISORDERED IN HER THINKING, SELFISH and Manipulative, and there is no way to have any kind of a NON-TOXIC relationship with these people.
I know from personal experience when they triangulate and SPLIT people up from each other successfully (and that is one of their best tricks) my egg donor split my son C off from his brother D and I. It was only the two of us against the troop of them, led and managed of course by my P son. As PROOF that they would “wini” in one of his letters of instruction to the Trojan Horse Psychopath he cheered them on with, “I get along with everyone in this family EXCEPT mom and D, and everyone else does too, so who is right? We are of course, and we will “win” because there are more of us and we are smarter! Mom (Me) is crazy. I think she must have a brain tumor.” LOL I’m sure glad that my P son got a good medical school and neurological education while he’s been in prison these 20+ years that he can make the diagnosis of my “brain tumor” without an MRI or a CT scan! LOL ROTFLMAO
The only way I can see that you can “help out” your sibs, is to maybe call a family meeting, IN LOVE, and say to them in a kind and compassionate way what you have said here…that you think your mother is being manipulative, and that you want no part of it. Assure them that you love THEM but that because of the situation you are going to have to DISTANCE yourself from “mommie dearest” (completely, but you might not want to say that to them at first) then tell them that you will support THEM and help them in whatever way you can in their care of your mom, FROM A DISTANCE, and that might mean that you help them financially, like pay for the moving truck if they would have to pay for it, or HIRE someone to do the labor that you would have done, but you are supporting your SIBS, not your mother, if that makes any sense.
Assure them that you are NOT asking them to “choose” between your mother and you, that they have their own relationships with mother, but you have chosen to distance yourself from mother, but you do NOT want to distance yourself from them, and you hope that they will be undeerstanding and supportive of the decision that you have had to make FOR YOUR OWN PEACE OF MIND AND STRESS REDUCTION which high stress is literally making you SICK.
Your might also say, “this isn’t about loving or not loving mom, but it is about my SELF PRETECTION AND PRESERVATION, and I “hope you can be supportive of me.”
Then in the future, keep your discussions of mommie’s behavior, antics, con jobs or whatever at a minimum unless it is a situation where you have to get the check book out and hire someone to help your sibs with your mom’s care.
That way, you won’t have to wrestle with any “guilt” about not doing your part with your sibs (which frankly, I’m my egg donor’s only child and I do NOT feel guilty that she has no one because she chose to take away my AUTHORITY to do ofor her, so without authority, there is NO OBLIGATION. If I had sibs and they had to help out my egg donor, like you do, I would “pay my share” (even if I had to sell plasma to get the money) but I would not participate in it, and I would do just what I advised you to do. Essentially or totally NC.
NC with my egg donor is the best thing I have EVER DONE for myself! I am no longer devalued by anyone in my circle of love and trust cause there are no abusers within that circle at the moment and I intend to KEEP IT THAT WAY, and anyone who doesn’t think I have a perfect right to stop abuse the only way I can and gets mad at me about it—that is THEIR PROBLEM, NOT mine.
Good luck and God bless ((((Hugs))))
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:31am
Cat says:
Twice Betrayed,Thank you and everyone else for your comments and your support. How do you go about getting full spectrum lighting because I find the winters MUCH harder to get through than the summers.
Spirit 40, I’ve run into the same thing with the legal system. I was told I couldn’t get an order unless he actually DID something. I asked for this when he was running around looking for a gun because he wanted to shoot himself and I was truly afraid he would take our son and myself with him. Wonder what one of them would do if the situation were reversed? I’m quite sure you weren’t there just because you were bored…
Susan, 53 rocks! I’m 53 as well. This has been my year of discovery and freedom. If I’ve learned ONE lesson, it’s to watch who I give to and why I give to them. Sleep deprivation hits me very hard. I can’t think, do or say anything that makes sense. I rarely have nights where I don’t sleep now. Had one a few days ago and it messed my mind and thinking up big time. I understand how that could have happened to you.
Ox, I’ve heard the same about Vitamin D. I hadn’t heard about the others though. I tend not to eat at all when highly stressed. I do take a good vitamin daily, though. My stress was so high at one point that I weighed only 115 lbs. That doesn’t work when you’re almost 5′8″. I actually ended up in ER, I was a anemic and dehydrated. I was the poster child for the effects of a Path. I was very pale and didn’t want to see or talk to anyone and of course, that was depression kicking in big time. This all came about because I finally told him to get out and he kicked into gear big time. I am pretty sure God was walking right next to me because as bad as I felt, I still stuck to my guns. I have come to believe that faith in a Higher Power is just as important to our soul as how we treat our bodies.
duped, the best therapist I ever had was the one who asked me, “What are YOU getting out of this?” One simple question that opened my eyes and changed my life forever. I haven’t seen him since I moved, but I can attest to the fact that a good therapist will help you change your life for the better. I think it takes a combination of taking care of ourself physically, finding people (like here on LF) to help us emotionally and a belief in that Higher Power and having a willingness to change.
Erin, I don’t have thryroid problems, but it does run in my family, so I’m tested on a regular basis. I think this is one of the most important tests a person should have done.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:33am
OxDrover says:
Dear Sistersister,
TOWANDA FOR YOU!!!! TOWANDA FOR YOUR MOM!
Sometimes it seems it takes a life time to be vindicated and I am glad that you (and your mom) both are vindicated by that article. It is a great one!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:38am
witsend says:
runnungaway,
Having a personality disorder in your family seems to bring up a whole set of different problems doesn’t it? However as I am learning here, on LF, it doesn’t come with a different set of rules of “how to not engage”.
I guess we have to step back and try to look at our own personal situation and make a choice. It is, what it IS. And everytime we allow them into our lives on any level (even just a simple holiday meal) the stress level is high.
I am in a similar but not the same type of situation. My youngest son still resides in the home. He talks about leaving, and I am still uncertain if he has a plan. Meaning a place to actually GO when he leaves. He is so out of touch with reality most of the time and seems to “think” that all he has to do is WANT something and say it outloud and it will “happen”.
He tends to reside in a world where what he says is HIS reality and not what actually happens.
His older brother, is so not in tune to his brothers disorder. And there really is nothing that I can say to give him an understanding of it all. It is as if it is just going to have to unfold and “happen” however it happens.
I think it is hard for family members to get it. Until they see it FOR themselves.
Maybe your sister has to experience this particular experience for herself with your mother? Maybe that is what it will take. Who knows what that “experince” with your mother might be before she has a “light bulb” moment? Maybe she will never have it. But you can’t prevent it. And maybe you shouldn’t try……
This is what I am concluding in my personal situation. My older son does not see his brother through my lenses. He is not living here at home, he is married and has his own life. He sees some things his brother is doing that he doesn’t understand…..But is a long way off from connecting the dots.
I will be here for him if and when he does…..And maybe he never will. I guess that is ok to.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:53am
banana says:
I think Oxy would agree, that this article is SPOT ON to my needs right now.
Amazingly as people before have said… I no-longer need anti-depressants since leaving the life with the S/P.
But alas, he is my son’s father. I must be diligent, but NOT hyper vigilant.
Thanks “duped”. What a revelation!
PS: yes. Marijuana can get you high once ingested, but if Duped has never “done” marijuana before it may not register…your body sometimes must be exposed a few times.
Duped was “parsley” on your children’s nuggets? It would have been nice to be able to prove he fed them “drugs”.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 1:13pm
OxDrover says:
I don’t know how long ago the “parsley” was on there, but HAIR TESTS can prove up to three months, maybe longer, as evidence of this is stored in the hair. I used to do pre employment drug screenings, and you wouldn’t believe how much liquid people would drink to wash it out of their systems and it DID work some of the time—but I suggested to the company that they start doing HAIR and then guys would shave their heads, so we took beard hair, then they started shaving off beards too, well then we took under arm or crotch hair—and we had to watch them cut it so it was amazing how many would leave before the test, “they forgot to run to the bank, be right back…” and never of course came back to the clinic. It was SOOOO Funny!
Of course, you might be able to PROVE YOUR KID HAD BEEN EXPOSED, but since your kid is so young, you probably couldn’t prove HOW they got it, it would be a he said-she said.
But just FYI if anyone has to do a drug test again, get an order for a HAIR TEST, if you are sure you are clean for at least 3 months.
My husband ate a whole pan of brownines one of his older kids had cooked with gosh knows how much MJ in it (years before we married) My husband did not smoke or drink alcohol, so I imagine it really got him high. He said he remembered crawling up the stairs to go to bed, but couldn’t get up on the bed, so pulled a pillow down and slept on the floor, laughing at everything.
Yes, Banana HYPER vigilence is definitely going to keep you distracted so that you RE-act instead of ACT, and keep your wits scattered about your feet. You need ALL of your wits right now to try to stay as close to sane as you can get under the circumstances. This guy really knows how to pull your chaini, and you have got to DISCONNECT his access to it!
Don’t get excited over the small things, and remember, no BLOOD, no worry—kids are resilient and your kid will survive being with the crazy grandma a time or two, and all the other stuff, so don’t let any of this guy’s drama upset you. When you start to feel upset, CHANT: THIS IS ALL DRAMA TO UPSET ME, I WILL NOT LET IT WORK!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 1:51pm
ErinBrock says:
Do they sell those brownies at the bakery……Today…..I could use a good laugh!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 2:01pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Cat: you can find full spectrum lighting bulbs in many home stores and use them in your lamps/lights. [I got some at Home Depot]. The more you use the more like sunshine in your home. You can also buy them online…just google. I have friends that live up north and northeast and they really suffer…and they use light boxes. Just google for them also and best price.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 2:30pm
Spirit40 says:
CAT , Thank you, exactly… no I must have been really bored to get up , muster up the courage to make my way downtown to the courthouse…. to be turned away… its ok most of them are just full of steam right.. just go home it will be ok ..cause we change our minds we must deserve the abuse for real…. Well this also solidifies my desire to be a victim advocate…. one more semester to go …wooo hooo…you are not as weak as you appear…. I love the analogy for fear…
F everything and run…. not us we are survivors! I Will not let anyone BREAK MY SPIRIT !
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 5:17pm
sistersister says:
OxDrover — Thanks for the further validation. Thirty-five years is too long to wait, but it happened.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:27pm
sistersister says:
Weird coincidence: My sister has the same birthday as my uncle: November 18. Both are just lost to reality.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:28pm
OxDrover says:
Wits, your advice is right on, and it is the hardest thing in the world to actually DO…let others take their own lumps, you can only do what you can do. Sure, we try to get them to SEE and to believe us, but until they actually SEE what is going on, it is like my husband’s color blindness, he could NOT SEE that pink goop on the freaking sink, it was invisible to him—and that is the same with others.
When I tried to show my egg donor the mug shot and rap sheet of the P she didn’t believe it, she said that I had “made it up on my computer”—-talk about DENIAL. I begged her to call the sheriff, but she refused, she would be “embarassed” she said!
Then, a few days later her attorney told me the sheriff was MAD AT ME FOR MAKING UP SUCH LIES…which proved to me that even her lawyer, mr. HOT SHOT NARCISSISTIC SCUM BAG LAWYER had not even talked to the sheriff either. Or else he would have known the truth, he didn’t even try to find out the truth.
I swear, it is so frustrating sometimes and even the cyber skilelt won’t pound sense into their heads. It doesn;’t mean they are stupid, they are just (Except for the freaking scum bag lawyer) P-BLIND. They make excuses, just LIKE WE USE’TA DO. that’s how we can know what they are feeling and thinking cause WE DID THE SAME THING!!!
Gosh, I was WARNED about some of the Ps I did business with, and warned about the P-boss I went to work for, she had a REPUTATION all right—but I only believed when she “hit me up side the haid!”
She screamed at me like a banshee, and I found out later she had done the same thing to everyone in the office, but I put my resignation in her in-box the next morning before she got there. She came into my office and said “Oxy, I think we need to talk” and I said “I don’t think so, you said plenty yesterday” Those were the last words I ever spoke to her, and I worked out my notice NC with her, pretended I didn’t see her if we crossed in the hall way. She had NOT expected me to quit, but to stay there like all the others because I needed the job. She didn’t realize I would have quit no matter what, but I had another job before the week was out. I feel sorry for those people who “had” to stay there with that witch for a boss. But I didn’t choose to stay, and fortunately, I have never had problems finiding a job. If it had been necessary, i would have taken one that meant I had to say “would you like fries with that?” But, actually it was a godsend and got me out of that madhouse…literally.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:57pm
duped says:
Since there’s been some discussion about the specifics of the parsley flakes incident, I thought I’d clarify. When I said evening class, perhaps night class would have been most explanatory. I did not get home until between 9:30 and 10 p.m. The kids where in bed, so I have no idea what was served to them (chances are good my eldest was left to fend for himself and the youngest ate something I’d specifically prepared for him since he was just a one year old at the time) and I went to bed shortly there after. If it was intoxicating, I wouldn’t have known.
The fact of the matter is, one shouldn’t have to think twice about eating something prepared by their significant other. I didn’t need to be more vigilant about behaving normally, I needed to make better choices from the get go about hooking up with Mr. Abnormal.
Which brings me to codependency. When all you know is crazy, the radar doesn’t sound; making it easy to ignore or excuse behaviors during the getting attached part of relationship building. Fortunately, I no longer have that problem. Unfortunately, I now sense crazy, of varying levels, so quickly I rarely get past a first date without counting my blessings and moving on!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:00pm
lostlittlegirl says:
Wow! Did a light bulb go on for me when I read this. Now those hemp lotions,etc. my former step-son got me for Christmas make sense! I was dealing with a father and son TEAM! And not that long after, sonny boy got in trouble, so Daddy had to start drug testing him. I feel soooooo dumb.
Will I ever sort this all out. I really don’t think so. Do I have a chance for survival with my kids against this??
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Duped,
I personally don’t like the term “co-dependent” but prefer to refer to it as “enabling”–in other words, essentially the same thing, in that WE are taking care of someone else’s problems that RIGHTFULLY belong to THEM, not us.
I don’t think that makes us DEPENDENT on them, though we can become ADDICTED to them, but I don’t know that is always the case, so I just sum it up as doing for others what they should be doing for themselves—whatever our motive is.
Whether that is picking up your kids clothes out of the floor (assuming they are old enough to do so) or bailing your scum bag out of jail. The princlple is THE SAME. It is still ENABLING them to go on with their inappropriate behavior and WE take the consequences.
I think when we simplify our lives to look at WHAT IS MY RESPONSIBILITY vs What is YOUR responsibility, it is pretty easy to see where we are being “healthy” or not being healthy.
Sure the woman/man who bails the creep out of jail may RATIONALIZe that if they don’t bail them out, they will lose their job and the mortage won’t get paid, but….well, you get the idea.
I think any time we do for others whether the motive is “selflessness” or whether it is to try to ‘fix” them, giving toio much to others and not enough for ourselves is not good survival strategy.
Being a psychopath must have some “survival” strategy in the long haul, because look how many of them there are, and when the resources are limited they get theirs, no matter who else doesn’t, plus with the males especially, they spread their “seed” around that is for sure—along with STDs and so on.
You are a stronger woman than you may realize, so you keep on keeping on! YOU WILL GET THROUGH THIS, you have the “net work” behind you as Verison says and we are a powerful network too! (((hugs)))
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 12:07am
Lillian says:
Hi All: What a thread. Hyper Vigilence. Until I read this I called it I am tired but I don’t want to sleep. So I just don’t sleep. The blog was very interesting and helpful. Thank you. A note to the pot brownies. My dear friend gave me a small baggie of medicinal pot popcorn. Thinking of it like popcorn my two friends and I ate it up. It was stunningly delicious. We were high for 12 hours. Wow. It had been a while but the relaxed dazed state was there. So much better than smoking….. What a treat!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 3:04am
Spirit40 says:
Cat, Sorry pardon me its an acronym for fear my bad….gee wonder where my head is at….better today with a good nights sleep…
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 8:20am
duped says:
Well said, Oxy! Since “codependency” was initially a term to describe what happens to enablers of addicts, I agree it doesn’t seem befitting to use the same term for others; even if the symptoms are very similar. It was a hard term and diagnosis for me to swallow for awhile. The literature on the subject can be helpful, however, if you replace “drug of their choice” with “exploitation of others”.
Thanks!
Duped
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 8:23am
banana says:
Oxy,
Just catching up with you.
I was at the pediatrician office yesterday for a well-child visit and the Dr. Recommended the seasonal flu shot, so I got it, barely blinking or thinking. When my S/P gets wind of this he’ll come up with some reason to belittle me.
My only concern is; what will the courts think?
Thanks,
B
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 9:11am
Spirit40 says:
Duped,
Thank you for the post on Nov 24 10:56 p.m. it really helps understanding where it comes from =) ….
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 9:50am
witsend says:
Bananna,
The courts ALWAYS look at what is in the best interest of the child.
A flu shot especially this year seems like a very reasonable concern for your child.
If you can, why not get a note from your doctor BEFORE your X even catches wind of this. Ask the doc to just give a note that he recommended the shot for your son.
AND let the note speak for itself. Do not engage in any conversation with your X about this. Ask that a duplicate note also be put in your sons file at the doctors office.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:26am
ErinBrock says:
Bananna:
Wits is right…….the BEST interest of the children.
I want to caution you NOT to allow him, his moves etc…..to get in the way of your parenting. It’s not like you allowed your New way Dr to give your son a labotomy or put him on 1000MG of corn flake injections to prevent hair loss when he’s 60. It was a FLU SHOT!!!!
Many parents put up the ‘no inoculation’ fights…..and he may go this route……BUT……don’t let him control this……you are being a good parent, prudent and cautious…..not out of line.
I know what it feels like to ‘parent’ based on what the courts or ex will judge you on……BUT the reality is……YOU WILL NEVER WIN over this stress.
Give it up to the universe……know your a good parent, make the best decisions YOU know how and in the best interest of your child. This will be evident at your hearing.
Your child will lose in the long run and you all along if you ‘parent’ based on what others expect or reactions ‘may’ be.
Give that some serious thought…….
Eliminate that from your stressors.
Remember 99.9% of things we worry about…..are fruitless!!!
Good luck!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:42am
Cat says:
TB, thank you for the info. I’ll be googling this morning. I live in the north and I empathize with those who deal with this. It’s so not fun!
Spirit, Why, OF COURSE you had nothing better to do!
I ran into the same thing. When I didn’t press charges the first time, the police here just let him have his way until I took the evidence in for the debit card theft. That is an automatic felony, btw, at least in this state and the amount doesn’t matter. I actually had a detective who pressed the charges. He said that way he couldn’t come back on me. The detective and ONE officer out of the entire city have stood by me. I’m thankful for those 2, but when you don’t press charges, they get mad and just write you off.
I heard that acronym a while ago. The other one I hear was Face Everything And Recover. They both have worked for me at various times. You are too funny! Hope you slept well…zzzzzzzz….
witsend to runningaway-well said! It’s no secret on here one of the biggest challenges I’ve dealt with is my own family enabling HIM to keep doing what he’s doing. I realized they see him through a different pair of glasses, the ones I used to wear. We all know about that special pair of glasses that blinds us to the lies, cheating and stealing. They blind us to the word games and the sick state of mind these people are really in. I can’t MAKE them take those off. That won’t happen until he’s burned them. I received the following phone message from my mother (say hello to the mistress of guilt):
“Can you please tell —–, (my ex Spath) to write a thank you note to all of us who helped get him out of jail? He is starting to upset a few of us.”
HELLO! Like I’m going to call this person and tell him to write a thank you note for getting him out of jail when it was MY debit card he stole that PUT him in jail? I laughed so hard, my butt fell off and then I felt sad for them…some will get and there are those who might never get it.
They don’t understand that in his mind, he was ENTITLED to that AND the hotel room they paid for that he stayed in for a few days. They will though and this is how they have to learn, like we did. That epiphany, for me, was a mix of pain, hurt and the realization he would never change mixed with relief and a host of other emotions. As Ox said, enabling. I did that in a 1,000 ways and members of my family are doing it now. When they take their lumps, I’ll be the first to understand, though at this point, I can only stay away.
I can see what you are saying about one son not understanding what the other really is. That has to be very hard on you, as a mother. Sending hugs for that!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:04am
OxDrover says:
Dear Erin,
The television and newspapers have been FILLED with the CDC and other official medical groups BEGGING people to get the flu shots for their babies and young children. Over 500 kids have DIED from the H1N1 flu already–so GET THAT ONE FOR YOUR CHILD as well. You would be going against everything known by medical science about flu if you did not get the shots for your CHILD and yourself.
Now–the flu shots can NOT cause “the flu” and you will hear people say “I took that shot and got the flu” and what happened is that it takes about 2 weeks to get protection from the flu after you get the shot, and they had already been exposed to the flu at the time they got the shot, and the symptoms just hadn’t started yet, so they blamed it on the shot.
Lots of people who wouldn’t think anything about getting in a bar brawl where pool cues are swinging are AFRAID of needles. Go figure!
It is important that you follow your DOCTOR’s medical suggestions for WELL BABY care and immunizations because these have been WELL TESTED by BIG RESEARCH for millions of kids to give your son the best chance of avoiding dieseases that will hurt or kill him.
The court is not going to make you let your uneducated dumbass X go against all the medical wisdom in the country.
I hope he does throw a fit about it in the court, A BIG FIT, LET HIM RANT AND RAGE AND ANYTHING because it will ONLY make him look like the DUMB ASS he is.
Bottm line is DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR YOUR CHILD and do not worry about what the x or the court says, my bet is though, that the court will back you 100%.
The only reason that your husband wasnt to go to the well baby check ups is to see you. You might even call and talk to the doctor and tell the doc that you are sending the baby with your husband instead of coming yourself, but that you want to know what he recommends at that stage. Then send your son with your husband, no need for two parents there, just him. Then if necessary, go back to the doctor and get any injections he recommended that the x wouldn’t let him give or whatever. That way, the arse doesn’t get a chance to be with you for an hour or two in the waiting room and to over power you in the exam room.
Keep in mind, there is more than one way to kill a cat without choaking it with butter–I’m still trying to figure out how, but in the meantime I am choaking mine on goat milk. Every morning she comes into the kitchen and softly meows for her goat milk…still hasn’t killed her but I figure it may take 12 or 15 years to succeed, so I will keep on trying. LOL
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:07am
skylar says:
I’m glad this topic was brought up because PTSD and hypervigilence is probably the most lasting effect of life with a P. Even when in denial, like I am most of the time, I can’t deny the obvious choices I make when I look around for his car, or when I park my car in such a way that it can’t be seen.
I’ve even used a fake name here and there, just in case word gets back to him about who I’m dating (someone he knows). We avoid getting photographed together, we’re building new garages, and installing more security systems at my BF’s house. I’m actually more worried about my BF than about me because he knows better than to mess with me. I told him that I know all his dirty secrets and I’ve told all his friends what he is: a sociopath. He knows I made recordings of our conversations, so if anything happens to me, the cops will know he did it and ALL of his dark secrets will unravel.
Life with the P always felt like “spy vs. spy”. At least now I know what I’m dealing with. Before, I thought he was so smart, now I know that he is just an audacious and shameless liar with no limits on the behavior he will indulge in. I also know that I won on the day I foiled his plans by leaving.
So anyway, here’s a song that might amuse you all.
http://www.sing365.com/music/l.....B0002CC4EF
We mention the title to each other (LIFE DURING WARTIME) whenever we find ourselves looking over our shoulders or implementing any defensive strategy.
Here are the lyrics:
http://www.sing365.com/music/l.....B0002CC4EF
QUOTE FROM LIFE DURING WARTIME.
We dress like students, we dress like housewives
or in a suit and a tie
I changed my hairstyle so many times now
don’t know what I look like!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:29am
witsend says:
Cat,
Thanks for the hug! Some days I really do need those hugs.
You know some folks aren’t just wearing the rose colored glasses….In some people the denial runs so deep, they will never “see” even when it is knocking right at THEIR door.
I think we have all experienced denial in different degrees….It kind of goes along with the territory of experience with an S/P/N. Alcoholism and other addictions within a family also creates alot of denial.
But your message from your mom was CLASSIC!
The man who just got out of jail needs to “mind his manners” and send thank you notes….OMG.
Many years ago my MIL stood on my porch and told me that her son (my husband) NEVER had a drinking problem until he met ME. I asked her about his previous DUI’s (way before I met him) She ignored my question but then SAID,
“when he moved out of our house we found 50 empty vodka bottles in his bedroom”. Hmm, no drinking problem……???
OMG, why would she even say this to me if she is trying to convince me he doesn’t have a problem?
This is way over the top denial. And to this day she says her son never had a drinking problem.
He commited suicide in her house, there was an empty vodka bottle, next to him, the police report included the high alcohol level found in him…….Yet she denies all of it. He was sober when he died.
If I didn’t know this woman, I would not have ever realized how deep denial can really be.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:37am
OxDrover says:
Dear Wits,
Well, let’s see, your son is going to california, and he don’t need no stinking education, that is for ordinary people…he’s going to be rich and successful, he’s got a plan….
And, oh, my P son is gonna get out of prison and come up here to the farm to live on his grandmother’s money for a while, but then when the old bat dies (of some kind of accident where she falls and hits her head no doubt) he will have all that money to buy falshy cars and find really good looking chicks and can probably come up with some kind of thing that will make him filthy wealthy like his P-grandfather, my sperm donor, and life will be GRAND and women will just be falling all over him, even if he has spent his total adult life in prison and is no longer a “good looking young man” but a rode-hard and put up wet kind of bald guy with a tough swagger and a very foul mouth.
Denial runs both ways, the victims are in denial, but the psychopaths and disordered personalities are ALSO in denial. They dream up a fantasy and becasue they can dream it, they just know it will WORK even though there is NO evidence that such a thing is any more possible than for my jack asses to fly to the moon.
GO FIGURE!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:48am
ErinBrock says:
Oxy….I believe your post above was directed to Bananna…..
You addressed it to me!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:51am
Cat says:
Wit, I hear you and you are most welcome! Anytime. We all need a hug now and then.
Yes, isn’t that just a HOOT?!? Like I’m in charge of family etiquette…? I rarely SEE my family!
It’s sad, but so many, like your MIL are like that. What they never get is that THEY are now part of the problem. She enabled him with her denial. (I did exactly the same for a very long time.) So much for her ever wearing those glasses.. How sad that he died right there. I think that maybe you needed to see this, and now share it, so that all of us can see how deep denial goes.
I’ve asked questions, such as you did, and had them glossed over. It’s like I never even asked. That’s complete, total denial and I’ve come to believe it affects the ears as well as the eyes. I feel it’s all part of the hyper vigilance and PTSD as well. We become so hypersensitive to what others are doing and saying, we lose all perception. I know I did.
My father is one who gets exactly what my ex is about. He was NOT in favor of getting him out of jail and if that happened, he was trying to get him to leave the state. My father was a cop and in intelligence with the Air Force for many years. He knows the ropes and he knows what he sees. My mother and sisters are a different story and that’s where the rubber meets the road. I pick and choose who I communicate with in my family and now, anyone can see why…STILL ROFLMAO…OOPS, IT FELL OFF AGAIN!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:55am
ErinBrock says:
OXY:
Do you think denial is the same as fantasy?
I’m thinking denial is a way of life……a thought process….
Fantasy may be a willfull belief in the untrue, impossible, unbelievable or probable.
BTW….when are the asses departing for the moon, you might want to sell tickets?
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:56am
OxDrover says:
Yea, DUH! I saw that after it was posted. LOL I was looking at your post to her and then just put your name in. Now you know why I RETIRED, if I was giving out medications I would have given hers to you! A mind is a bad thing to waste—if you have one, and I am obviously losing what I had
! LOL Thanks!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:57am
OxDrover says:
Erin,
We sort of posted over each other there– to answer your question I think DENIAL is a sort of way to maintain the fantasy. Whether it is the victim denying that the abuser isn’t going to get better (maintains the fantasy that they love the victm) or if it is the abuser’s DENIAL that he isn’t going to get what he wants (whatever that is) with force.
I dont think denial and fantasy are the same thing, but it is ONLY with DENIAL that you can maintain whatever FANTASY you are trying to maintain.
Short term, denial is good…like a sudden death you deny when you are told “Oh, it couldn’t bee, I just saw him this morning” it is a protective emotion to keep us from having TOO MUCH bad information at once, LIke you can eat an entire elephant, just one bite at a time.
LONG TERM denial though is a failure, a refusal to ACCEPT what is obvioius.
It is denying the truth that you know. “OH, I don’t have to study for that test, I can pass any way”—then going to the party instead of studying, then the consequences, flunk the test. Then deny that education is important, “I’m so smart I reallydont’ need and eeucation” Can’t get a job, because of no education “They are discriminating against me, I could do that job if they would just give me a chance, it is all their rotten selfish fault.”
“I need to send money to my P grandson in prison and leave him money in my will because he needs a chance to reform when he gets out, I don’t really belive he tried to have Oxy killed, I think it was just the Trojan Horse P and the DIL that dreamed that up, my grandson loves me and I want him to come home and have a good life.” Ignoring all the PROOF that my P son DID try to hve me killed, but she “doesn’t want to believe that” so she doesn’t. No amount of evidence could convince her of the truth.
I heard our Ex AR gov last night on the news. His record of releasing prisoners for “a second chance” has not been good. He released one rapist who raped and killed again, I said yesterday it was only a month after he was released, I correct myself, Wayne Dumond was out 11 months before he raped and killed the victim this time.
The guy in Washington was a perfect example of someoone who should NOT have been let out, but the gov blames the parole board, but several articles said that the members of the board were PRESSURED by the gov to approve the parole after the gov commuted his sentence, So the gov has “deniability” and the parole board has “deniability”
Huckabee released over twice as many convicts as other governors. Even Cllinton.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 1:06pm
witsend says:
ErinBrock,
Denial is different than fantasy. The brain is a such a complicated thing.
It was explained to me once. BUT we ALL know how good I am with words! (NOT) I will do my best.
Denial begins almost like a defense mechanism. Stuff that we can’t accept or is to painful to face. By denying something that is painful even exist we don’t have to deal with it.
Denial can be kind of a proccess. We get little tid bits of information that we don’t want to believe right away. So initially it is protecting us. But as more information is presented to us we start to see the cold hard truth. And we can begin to move out of denial and into the reality of the situation.
The depths that denial can go are beyond my understanding.
I have to laugh….During the course of typing this my phone rang and it was my MIL. (she rarely calls me) AND she is the classic example of being in the depths of denial.
I’m sure you can guess whom she chooses to be in denial about now….You got it her grandson….OMG, my heart is racing from a few minute phone conversation….
She just can NOT understand why her granson isn’t taking drivers ed? I am standing in his way of getting a drivers licence.
I tried to explain how he might take drivers ed if he would accept responsibility in school and EVEN begin to understand that the rules DO APPLY to him, just as they do for the other students.
I explained to her that if the rules don’t apply to him (in any aspect of his life so far) isn’t that kind of scarey letting him drive a car? She didn’t get it. Imagine that?
I believe early research was done on denial in the form of addictions. Because it is a common in addicts and their extended family.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 1:22pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
Its ok that you posted to Erin instead of Bananna. Yesterday I posted to myself……As henry can attest to.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 1:29pm
witsend says:
Cat,
It is really good that someone in your family does see the reality of the situation. Your dad having been a cop is even better yet. He has seen alot, I’m sure in that line of work.
I think it really helps to have a close friend or a family member that “gets it”. It helps to be able to talk to a “live” person sometimes….I think it keeps us grounded when sometimes we are reeling from the non reality the S/P/Ns bring into our lives.
How does he deal with your mom and sister?
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 1:34pm
ErinBrock says:
Wits:
I was thinking the same thing…..
Also that you and oxy are dipping into the same brownies……
I think Henry might have left them laying around!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 1:36pm
OxDrover says:
Okay guys, I am SENILE not HIGH! Get it right–uh? get what right? Oh, well….
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 2:28pm
Spirit40 says:
Cat, if you look the accronyms up online there are so many on FEAR another of my favorites …
Finding everything and realizing…. =)
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 4:14pm
banana says:
Oxy,
No offense taken.
Thank you all for your encouraging reminders.
“Reminders” because I know I am a good mom. I feel I love my son more than anyone could love a child. I am also very well-educated as a teacher because of the child psychology classes I took as well as watching my students grow, experience and develop.
I enjoy educating myself as well and like to learn how to become adept at things.
Parenting is never a yes or no easy answers thing, because every child is unique, but I know I care and work hard to do my best.
I am slowly recovering. I do believe I have PTSD. I think that is what is causing these gut fear/guilt reactions that cause me not to think of what I know is true and believe what ever he tells me.
The Christ Life Solution; Ultimate Journey has really helped me recover. It was a lot of work, but I would highly recommend the classes AGAIN.
I also spoke with my attorney tonight.
She said the only reason I had to take the parenting class was because it was suggested to my S/P and his attorney said S/P will go, if banana has to go too. Same for the court order on no speaking.
Well, that’s revealing
and releaving.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 6:27pm
banana says:
DENIAL.
I for one think many of our MILs are S/Ps or Ns.
I know mine very likely is.
Months before my S/P husband got caught red handed. I had a feeling he was cheating on me. I confided in MIL and she denied, circumvented…beat around the bush.
She wouldn’t let on, but said that he wouldn’t do that because he had everything he ever dreamed of, a good wife, a home of his own and a child.
Months later after he left me and she was still sitting for my son I prodded her often and FINALLY drained it out of her that he had in fact cheated many times before!!!
And now that it’s all said and done, although she stuck with me and supported me throughout the in and out cheating and helping me be strong….she is convinced by him that I am being the unreasonable one in this D!
This after three years of the two of them butting heads and each telling me how violent and unreasonable the other was!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 6:32pm
OxDrover says:
Interesting, Banana, she knew yet she didn’t think enough of you to tell you because she knew you would leave him….DUH! I would say she is very dysfunctional and probably enabling as well. Yea DENIAL—off and on of course, unless he piths her off then he is a devil, but if he piths you off, you are in the wrong! heads you loose, tails no one wins.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 7:54pm
LouiseGolem says:
Hi folks,
I try to read a bit of this every day, to remind myself that my current “reality” is not insanity. My S/P, or whatever the heck he is, is still on the fringes, though I’m trying really hard to keep him at bay. I’ve been doing therapy, and had a great Thanksgiving, almost to a point where I kind of forgot that I recently broke up with someone who seems to look at the world as nothing but potential prey. And then he sent an old picture of me, in semi dress, to my work e-mail, and I thought – he’s crossed the line. (Of course I’ve blocked him now at that address.)
My counselor said this was his way of getting back at me for not being in touch with him. Yes, this vigilence thing is oh, so important. But unfortunately, when I really start being vigilant, and remembering all the wacky things he said that made me flee, I can really freak myself out. Mine had a growing interest in mass murders. He talked every now and then about killing his own family. . .
And yes, mine threatened me, too, Velveeta. We were driving past a large park near my home, and I commented on how I like to walk there. His response: “Oh don’t walk there; it’s a place I used to hide my victims.” And then he looked at me and said: “don’t ever leave me, because if you do, I’ll come after you.”
Well, I did leave him, after I began to suspect he was having a relationship with his 20 year old daughter’s friend (Although he denied it several times, I’m pretty damned positive I’m right on that one), and I’ve been fearing he’ll come after me ever since then.
I guess one of the things I’m struggling with is the question of what is worse? the out and out “I”m going to kill you” threat, or the veiled threat, which mine was oh, so good at delivering. And when I think about the little “messages” he’d drop into the middle of an otherwise unimportant sentence, I get chills.
I guess this post, and the conversation it sparked, set me off on what I”m thinking about tonight. I’m sorry if I’m kind of misdirected. . . I just feel a need to talk to folks who don’t think I’m nuts. . . .
Thanks for being here. Hey, by the way, what’s the deal with Towanda? Isn’t that in PA? And then there’s Tonawands, too. . . . .
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 9:51pm
henry says:
Towanda~! is what Kathy Bates character said in the movie Fried Green Tomatoes, when she rammed her car into the back of a volkswagon full of preppy girls that stole her parking spot~! as she pushed them out of that parking spot Towanda is like saying Way To Go~~!!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 9:56pm
henry says:
Hi Louise – My xS made threats, but it is my opinion they were to keep me hooked and under control. Once I made the ‘final’ discard he more or less forgot about me and moved on to easier prey. But at the time I took those threats seriously. I was also very much on edge and crazy with anxiety at that time. Just where they want us to be.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:08pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi LouiseG,
I have to tell you how I responded to your question about ‘which is worse the direct or veiled threat’:
THE WHOLE F**CKING PARADIGM IS w-R-O-N-G!
oh, girl…..I have some twisty thought paradigms from my exp. with the spath i ran into (unfortunately, not ACTUALLY), so I understand AND I understand.
all best
one step
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:32pm
ErinBrock says:
Bananna:
Generally, parenting classes are always required for both parents if there are ANY sort of custody issues.
That ruling wasn’t a ’shot’ at you, it was standard….so don’t take it personally.
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:34pm
duped says:
I share an online calendar for my son with his S father. Most of the time, it helps keep things logistical and reduces “reminder” dialogs which he so thoroughly enjoys. Every now and then, he’ll just delete things arbitrarily; which automatically sends me an email alert at the end of the day that something on the schedule was modified.
This happened today. So I thought, why would a systems professional have such a hard time operating a simple web calendar? I’ve had no similar issues on my end. And the same answer came to my mind…to mess with me, of course!
So, I texted him and asked, “why did you delete your time with our son this coming Saturday?” He didn’t answer but instead tried to engage me into a back and forth “is it there yet?” dialog.
I stepped out of the dance! I changed the email settings to never alert me and told him he will have to contact me directly if he wishes to change plans, with justification, before I will recognize his changes in the calendar. I asked one last time, mostly for confirmation, “why did you delete it?” and got nothing…
It’s amazing the littlest things an S/P can and will do to get you to pay attention to them. Pathetic, really!
Even more pathetic, will be his next attempt, since the game landscape has changed, yet again. Maybe it started tonight when he tried to hang out at drop off, violating my recent and explicit wishes he keep transitions for our son as short as possible.
Ha…he thinks I’m still HER!!! Whose the sucker now?!?!?
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 10:39pm
ErinBrock says:
duped:
Oh, I can hear the empowerment and strength coming through!
Good for you….GOOD FOR YOU GIRL!!!!
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Wednesday, 2 December 2009 @ 11:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Duped!
Great response!!!! WHOOOOOOO!!! TOWANDA!!!! You GO GF!!!! I hear that power coming through too!
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Thursday, 3 December 2009 @ 10:55am
Cat says:
witsend, He IS a blessing in that he learned a long time ago to read the “story behind the story” as they say. How does he deal with my mom and sister? Actually, I have 3 sisters who are right there with my mother. It’s caused MORE chaos in my family than you could ever believe. My father isn’t one to back down when he feels something this strongly and there have been horrible family fights over this idiot. My mother claims she goes for the “underdog” because someone has to. My father says she’s chosen to go to the dogs, period. My apologies to all of our 4 footed friends. I happen to have one myself. The hysterical part is, I get messages saying it’s all my fault. I don’t even TALK to these people unless there’s a family emergency. I disregard messages and delete them. The one on his lack of etiquette slipped through and frankly, I’m glad it did because it’s downright funny! Gee, wonder if he learned to write yet?
Spirit, I like that one too! You know, I think it fits me perfectly. The finding put me in hyper vigilant mode and to a degree, I’m still there. The Everything, I’m sure I’ll never know it all and that is most likely a good thing. The Realizing is what brings us freedom. It’s not fun at first, but it was a first step for me. I think I’ll go look for some more of these.
duped, I have the same thing. My sons’ father plays the dumbest games and yes, he’s pathetic. The attention they need and the ways they’re willing to get it is just plain stupid. I just blocked mine because he sent me an excerpt from a piece on anger, telling me I had an anger management problem. Oh please! Like I bought this? Go tell it on the mountain!
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Thursday, 3 December 2009 @ 1:33pm
ErinBrock says:
HA, HA, HA Ha…..
Hypervigilance!!!!
I just got ‘wind’ the S is back in town and has been ‘watching’ us……
Freak!!!
So tonight, in all my PTSD hypervigilance, I see a car pull up out front through my securtiy cameras….a guy get’s out and runs down around my house……I run to the windows and try to see who it is? phone in hand and where the dude went?? I’m thinking it’s someone sent by S or the S coming to ‘dig up’ the yard…..
So, I can’t see the dude, can’t find the guy and I’m freaking out…….
I wait 5 minutes and the dude is no where to be seen……Oldest son goes outside, (against my yells of NO)…..like a rambo freak with a crowbar and …..low and behold….recognizes the vehicle…..IT”S HIS (friggen) YOUTH PASTOR!!!!!!!!
But the YP is no where to be seen……
I’m on the phone with 911, son is outside with a crowbar and the youthpastor comes out of nowhere……?????????
The police drive up as I’m telling him….dude, you know I have security cameras and NOTHING gets by here without me knowing……
He explained he left his phone on top of his car, it dropped off as he turned in, so he pulled over and ran back to the road to get it…..as he was looking for it, my son called him on it and it light up…..he called son back and son was panicky saying Is that your car in front of my house…..he’s like….dude, you called at the perfect time, I found my phone because the phone lite up when you called…..Thanks…..he’s walking back around the corner as we are both standing outside now…..and the police drove up…….
DUHHHHHHHH…….we looked like laural and Hardy……or was it “who’s on first’…….
So…..Yes…..I’ve got to calm down now……but just hearing he was stalking us today put me back in hypervigilance………
GOTTA STAY ON IT>>>>>>
Maybe NOT SO on it though?????
Well…..at least we got the attention of the youth pastor….after I explained to him I was watching his every move on my property…….He felt so bad…….(he knows the ex s)…..and we all laughed…….
WHAT A DOPE!!!!!
Have a better night than me!
BRREEEEAAAATHHHHHHHHH…….EEEXXXXHHHHAAAALLLLLEEEEE!!!!!
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Friday, 4 December 2009 @ 1:28am
OxDrover says:
We have those episodes around here though we haven’t called 911 on any of them (yet) and any strange vehicle makes son C “take notice.” Yesterday an old friend, who is now retired dropped by to talk to me about oxen (he used to have one steer he worked) and son D and I were sitting at the table listening to this guy tell stories and I thought we were going to PEE OUR PANTS laughing. He should have been a stand up comic he is so funny, talking about the yankees he used to work with (he was a salesman for farm equipment) and how they couldn’t understand his dialect. We listened to him for two hours rollilng on the floor, and when son C came in from work, I could see he didn’t recognize the guy right away (C actually dated this guy’s daughter a time or two) cause he hadn’t seen the guy in 10 yrs or so. I know our friend didn’t realize C was in “hyper alert mode” but I knew he was. He relaxed as soon as he was reintroduced though.
The guy’s daughter ended up marrying a control freak guy who doesn’t care for her family so they really dont’ get to see much of their grandkids, which really upsets this guy and his wife, they are the PERFECT grandparents, or would be if the SIL wasn’t such a stuck up snob who thinks he is “up town” and doesn’t want his kids to associate with their down to earth rural grandparents. Their daughter does bring the kids by for a few hours once in a while, though the SIL never comes. Oh, well, not my problem.
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Friday, 4 December 2009 @ 12:26pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Dear EB,
I want you to be safe. I want you to do whatever you need to do to be safe, including sometimes making something out of what turns out to be nothing. ‘Cause what if it was something?
I had a bf when i was young who tapped our phone and fed my phone conversations back to me piece by piece. when i left (a VERY short while after) I did it running out the door with nothing but my bag – even my cat was left behind (Ig other later with the cops in tow). He stalked me. I don’t regret my hyper vigilance. it kept me safe.
best,
one step
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Saturday, 5 December 2009 @ 10:56am
one_step_at_a_time says:
ig other later??? hmm, wonder what THAT means?
ahhh, ‘I got her later’.
ok. must learn to look at the screen when i type.
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Saturday, 5 December 2009 @ 10:58am