When nurture becomes nature
PDF There comes a time when nurture becomes nature.
This is the time when nurture and nature become inextricable, inseparable.
I suspect nobody knows precisely when this point arrives in the development of a given individual, but the immediate ramification is this: When you are involved specifically with a sociopath, or any exploitative personality, it is imperative that you stop asking how this person became who he is?
Sure, he likely endured—and was shaped by—some form of neglect or abuse growing up, and if this wasn’t obvious in the history, it was still likely there.
But here’s the point: it doesn’t matter. Not one bit.
Instead, you must relinquish your empathy, compassion and curiosity—in short, every emotion that supports your obsession to understand the genesis and evolution of your exploiter’s pathology—and confront the reality that you are dealing with (as I propose) a case of nurture becoming nature, about which there’s not a damned thing, at this point, to be done.
The damage, in other words, was baked into his character a long time ago. There is no ameliorating it now. Not all the love in the world—nothing that you have, or think you have, or thought you had to give him—will dent the petrification of his psychopathology.
His diseased personality disease is immutable, as good as etched in his DNA. Case closed.
And so what you do is this: You run for the hills, just as you’d run from a rabid dog that perhaps once was innocent and gentle. Now the dog is rabid: it no longer matters how it became rabid. And so you run, fast, and you don’t look back, because every second you allow false hope to delay you increases your risk of grievous harm.
You may have loved that dog; maybe loved it before it became rabid, or maybe it was rabid all along and you just didn’t know it. And maybe you even still love that rabid dog, or the persisting fantasy of it as unrabid.
But the dog is rabid, and a rabid dog doesn’t love you, and it was probably rabid going way back and never really loved you as you once imagined, but again…it makes no difference.
There are rabid animals, and there are rabid people, and neither loves you.
And so the time for analysis, of him, is up.
To be clear: I appreciate the need to make sense of trauma. But at some point, the analysis of exploiters can assume an obsessive desperation that subverts, rather than supports, the processing of trauma.
I speak here from the position of having worked with many victims of exploitive personalities who are very much like stunned deer caught, and as if suspended indefinitely, in the headlights.
One of the vital tasks is to unstun them.
And sometimes the dogged determination to “make sense” of, to “analyze” the exploitive traumatizer can be a disguised obsession with discovering something in the history (his or yours) that you insist on imagining would have made a difference…would have made him different?
We can search this angle interminably. And unless we call off the search, we will.
And it’s a search we’re wise to call off because it can effectively bring us to a standstill, forever.
(My use of “he” in this article was a convenience, not meant to imply that women aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Maybe he thought that “she was worth more” because you were geteing wise to his ways and that she might be “fresh meat” he could manipulate. LOL Yea, they are “sumptin” all right! Sumptin creepy! ROTFLMAO
I just think of it this way, Tami, look at how much better off you are because she “stole” your man! ROTFLMAO Who got the best end of THAT DEAL!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
Hi Freshly Duped:
What a story!! Thank God the friend spilled the beans and told you he was married. I wish I had a clue about what I was getting into before it was too late. Someone up there is looking out for you. I swear, if you had played into the emotional pity party regarding the story about his relationship with the wife and kids, he would have taken you right down the tubes. This is how they do it…they get you emotionally attached to them first and after they feel you are hooked, then they start to take more, and more, and..etc., etc. until all your money, self-esteem, sanity and independence are gone. Before you know it, they’re on to the next victim. I don’t want to go into detail about what I went through but just some of the things that happened to me were:
1. I paid most of the time because he didn’t have much money.
2. He moved into my condo after 8 months and I paid for all living expenses including food.
3. His son moved in with us shortly after so I was then supporting the 3 of us because he quit his job.
4. His constant telephone calls to my job got me fired.
5. I spent $20K on my credit cards and life savings while I was looking for work and my unemployment checks for us to survive.
6. I put a down-payment on a car and made all the payments, paid for repairs, insurance, etc.
7. I bought him a dog he wanted.
8. He asked me to put his name on the deed to my condo because he said we were going to get married and wanted it as a sign of our committment…so I did like an ass.
When he left, I had to clean-up the biggest mess ever. I am in debt and looking for work. I am dating but finding it hard to trust again. I had to threaten to have him thrown in jail unless he turned over the title to my condo, I had to threaten to call the police and report the car stolen to get it back…it was a friggin nightmare!!
I am sorry you hooked-up with the Ahole. I know how the shock feels of finding out someone was a lie all along.
What really rattles us is when we find out that not everyone thinks like us or feels the way we do…we can’t fathom that people actually don’t feel anything..that they are calculating and are after something…whether it be sex, money or both…there is always a prize they are out to get. After it is used up, it’s on to the next. This is how they live.
You know what you should do??? Post his profile on dontdatehimgirl.com. I posted my ex there. It is a great place to warn others about these bloodsuckers.
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
freshly duped,
Yes, when you call them out of their facade and they realize that you see what they are.. they leave.. mine did.. and when he realized I wasn’t buying ANY of his con.. he stopped contacting me..
They need to stay in their spin to survive…
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
WHY DO YOU ALL Give these men Money.. DO NOT DO IT EVER!!!!!!! And never put their names on any of your property EVER EVER EVER EVER.. Even if you marry, keep your separate property SEPARATE! That is the first things that alerted me to mine.. he was talking that he didn’t believe in prenups etc.. well, why should he, he had nothing… NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER comingle property and if they want to say NO!
Mine was trying to set me up in these ways and he realized that I was too smart for him… and he backed down.. and slinked away…
People that really love you don’t want your property… and NO WOMAN SHOULD EVER PAY OR A MAN EVEREVEREVER!
(Report abusive comment)
henry says:
WHY? duh – I guess we were STUPID~~~!!!!! isnt this website about con men and women?
(Report abusive comment)
Spirit40 says:
Oh we were stupid.. thinking we were kind and generous…. mine said the lioness goes out to hunt for her pride… while the lion lays around the house surfing porn I guess… while I worked paid the bills etc…. LOL OMG!!!! yeah STOOPID… I can not believe when we bought and it was we omg 1/2 1/2 this time rings he said they were to pacify me? why would I want to exchange rings with someone just to pacify me? I realized then I did not want to get old /er with this man/boy….talk about a slap in the face. And we are not supposed to want bad things to happen to these sc– bags… why not ? he’s not worth the gum scraped off my shoe… a living coacroach….
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
style1, henry, and all,
Duh, we gave them money because they conned us into it by telling his some pitiful sad story that pulled at our heartstrings because we are NORMAL people with hearts that are sometimes too BIG. Or, in some cases, they led us to believe that with the help of our money and their great minds, we’d BOTH share the wealth someday! That’s why most of us on here feel like total idiots! In most cases, we would have never given men money but the sociopath has a way of getting what they want based on the GOOD in us! We were targeted by them for this very reason.
And, yes, my ex S DID know that I was getting close to seeing him for WHAT he was. I put my foot down, told him that he had to find work, told him that I could no longer afford to support his pot habit nor did I want to, and that he should be paying his own child support. I also had found two women’s phone numbers in his possession and after that, I told him ONE MORE questionable thing and he was out of my house! Of course, he cried and begged, promised to be the man that he should be, blah, blah, blah. And, then within three months, he was off to Biddy Land! And you know the sick part of it all? I ALWAYS knew that if I ever ask him to assume any responsibility or “act like a man” that he’d leave me. Yet, as stressful as it was taking care of him, I FEARED him leaving me simply because my own ego craved the sugary love lies and flattery that dripped from his lips. Looking back, hell, I was as sick as he was!
Freshlyduped: YES! EVERYTHING he ever told you was a lie. Fortunately, I never have to see my ex S again so I don’t have to worry about falling into his web again…I don’t think I would have anyway because once someone lies and deceives me in the horrifice manner that he did…stick a fork in me because I’m DONE! So, no, he isn’t real. When you see him, think of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck or better yet think of the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz. LOL! Biddy was so proud that my ex S dressed as the Tin Man this year for a Halloween party. She sent me a pic of him! I told her that was the most fitting costume he could have chosen! LOL!
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
Hi Style1:
Yeah, looking back I was so stupid to share everything or should I say give everything because he wasn’t contributing. I just felt he was going through a rough spot and once he got a job, he’d pay me back. We were supposed to get married so I was acting like a partner. . little did I know, he already had another woman set up right in town so when everything I had was used up, he’d go right to her…and that he did.
I’ll never forget the look on his face and how calmly the words rolled off his tongue. I said “Nelson, I have no money. I had to take out a small loan to pay the mortgage this month. You have to get a job. You need to help me.” He cooly looked at me and simply said, “It’s time.” Do you know what that meant? I was tapped so it was time for him to go to the OW. You know what really burns me??? The OW knew he was living with me. She KNEW. Also, she had been in the picture ALL ALONG. He used her car to move into my place. I am just lucky to get my car back and my condo back. I’ll never see any of the money I used to support him and his son. Oh yeah, the son was in on it too. A 13 year old kid. They would both go to the OW’s house a few times a week. My ex would tell me he was going to his friend’s house. . and that it was a guy friend. The kid was instructed not to tell me who daddy’s “Friend” was. I would ask and he would say, “my dad said not to talk about it.” So, I had 3 people…the OW, my ex and the ex’s son all in on the dupe. The OW drove around in the car I paid for…gasonline supplied by the money I worked for. I was working, going to school at night, supporting my fiance and his son, doing all the housework, cooking, cleaning, laundry, while they all got a piece of the pie. Sorry for the long vent. I still get sick when I think about it.
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
Spirit.. what? He told you that a lioness hurts for her Pride..??????
A man supports a woman and if he can’t then he should not be with one…
Mine lived with me but he paid rent and paid when he took me out and bought me things.. but that still wasn’t enough.. Because the house and everything else was mine.. he didn’t buy the house.. therefore had no real responsiblity to me… and I RESENTED IT.. All I ever did was buy food most the time and give him gifts on birthday and Xmas..
He paid large child support.. so it begin feeling like he was living in my great life.. and sending more his money to another household and I RESENTED THAT… Of course, he should take care of his kids.. but he didn’t have the money for a wife… and I was creating the life.. the life style and enhanced his world…and I began to RESENT That.. he talked about when his ship comes in what he will do for me.. bu his ship never came in .. and I got of him.. I don’t think that I ever loved him .. his contrived LOVE LOVE LOVE.. had me hooked in…He wanted a woman like me but had no means to support or enhance my life.. but i enhanced his.. and he made promises… and he came after me.. I was what he wanted…
well….if they can’t provide up front… say come back when you can… I wore a fake engagement ring on my finger when I have never worn fake in my life… I was being kind.. oh, poor guy he works so hard.. I am being demanding to want real… again the nice woman.. BS! I felt resentful the whole time I was with him.. he wanted to marry me in the first 3 months.. had i married this man.. I would have his bad credit, be responsible for his child support and debt and he wouldn’t have been able to afford a divorce.. so I would have had to pay for that.. after he left for Florida to be with his kids…
I didn’t get hooked in that far.. I watched .. I waited.. and my instincts proved correct… he was a fraud.. a liar… a con… a someday.. .. well, someday is now! I am still here and he is off and gone and am certain looking for the next woman.. he married the one before me in like a month and she died…and he was after me 3 months later… claiming that I was his true soulmate.. I wasn’t his soulmate!
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
I meant to write hunts for her pride.. but maybe ‘hurts’ is more it…
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
This man was the most down and out man that I have ever been with and all he talked about is money, spirituality, manners and how great that he is..
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
Good grief! They are ALL alike, aren’t they. Anytime I even hinted at my struggling to pay the bills while he laid on the couch stoned and playing video games and unbeknownst to me at the time…chasing women and buying them gifts with MY money…he’d say that’s why they all left me. I asked him what he was talking about and he’d pitifully say that all the women before me left him because he never had enough money to keep them happy!
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
If someone is going through a rough spot.. how about saying come back when you are ready for a relationship.. that is my new deal..
(Report abusive comment)
witsend says:
Isn’t that the most interesting thing of all when trying to figure out how their “lies” do indeed work for them?
Even when they are lying they also DO reveal a part of themselves (the truth) that tends to get overlooked.
A great example is what Tami said above….Her X lying on the couch stoned and playing video games and yet revealing a MAJOR part of himself….That the women before left him because he never had enough money to keep them happy.
Classic example of s/p/n behavior. They really do live by their own set of rules.
(Report abusive comment)
Stargazer says:
Style,
I’m like you–I have it very deeply ingrained that a man takes care of a woman. I’m not even attracted to a man that I have to pay for. If I even meet a guy for coffee and he doesn’t offer to buy mine, I lose interest. I read all the Mars and Venus books a long time ago, and they stuck. My ex, the S, never went after my money. Probably cause I don’t have any. He was actually very generous with me while we were dating. He never let me touch my wallet or drive us anywhere. Too bad about the pathological lying……
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
Yea, if you LISTEN WITH YOUR MIND NOT YOUR HEART, you can HEAR THE TRUTH behind their lies. You can bet they all left his sorry butt because it was too lazy to work! LOL Smart women!
Actually, I think you need to send BIDDY a “thank you gift” for taking that creep out of your life! She is your BEST FRIEND AND gave you the greatest gift in the world, FREEDOM from that jerk! ROTFLMAO
Style, I am not as adamant about male/female roles as you seem to be about “who pays for what” but at the same time, I would not support some guy from the “get go” and would not be interested in FORMING a relationship with someone who was “down and out” or was in very very poor health TO START with. That doesn’t mean that anyone with a “disability” of some kind would be unwelcome, or someone who was not able to “keep me in the style” I would like to become accustomed to, but at the same time, I think there needs to be a basic “equality” of “life style” financially, as well as intellectually, and morally. I wouldn’t be interested in a guy who lived at the “rescue mission” and had never had a “pot or a window” but at the same time, I would probably also not be interested in someone who was a multi-zillionaire who owned 4 homes and 12 cars and 6 boats. Our lifestyles would be too different. I would also probably not be interested in someone who couldn’t read or write very well. And as much as I “love” Matt (even if he was straight) i wouldn’t want to live in NYC or in an apartment. I love living in the boondocks and doing the things that are important to my lifestyle.
My late husband and I both had kids when we married and our own things, so we had a prenup before we married, “just in case’ and also in case one of us died the other one’s kids couldn’t be a problem and each of us would have our things go to our own kids.
I worked a salaried job and had a pay check twice a month, my husband did consulting and sometimes would go for a year or two without much income but then would bring in in one wad what I made in two years. Our finances were mingled some, but if you totaled up what he made and what I made during our marriage (20 years) it was about the same though it came in in different ways and different times so we both contributed to the overall upkeep of the family and the home.
I provided the land (inherited family land) and he built the house, barn, hangar and airport, we built the farm up together, we each had what we wanted and worked together. He didn’t “support” me and I didn’t “support” hjim, we supported EACH OTHER.
If I ever had another relationship it would be the same way (or not at all) we would both contribute to the expenses necessary to run a home shared by a couple. My kids who live here kick in for room and board and do a fair share of the chores at home and on the farm…this is not a flop house for people who dont’ want to work and I’m no one’s maid, we all pitch in and all enjoy the benefits of a nice home, a lovely place to live and a good lifestyle. One of my sons has his own home on this same farm, but it is currently rented out and he lives here in my house because he enjoys being here and the benefits of a couple of ‘roomies” that pitch in on utilities and chores. It beats doing it all yourself.
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
When I told mine that I was tired of waiting for someday. That this is my life now. He said that he was tired of hearing this.
Ummm.. so some other woman told him the same thing…
I have a feeling that all the women that he was with were women of some means.. all had wealthy families.. that is what he is attracted to.. he comes in gets them pregnant.. and of course, he works, but the whole image is that of the wives…
now he is older and isn’t looking to have children.. he is still taking care of those from the last wives.. and now he is looking for an older woman.. and expects them to caretake his kids.. and provide the stablity and home etc.. while he works and pays for his kids and talks about someday … he is almost 60 with a 14 year old…
and he has no money.. lives pay check to pay check.. can’t afford a house, has bad credit.. so he needs a woman with a house…the least will be up on his car in January.. I wonder what he is going to do??? I bet that he would’ve asked me for money for a down payment and I would’ve said NO!
no planning on his part.. he rolls through life like a gypsy…
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
The thing that amazes me MOST about sociopaths is that they are so deceitful and tell huge lies but they also know how to tell the truth in a way that works in their best interest when they’re backed into a corner! That IS the greatest thing that sets me apart from Biddy. He KNEW that I would NOT under NO circumstances tolerate cheating. He cheated on me with numerous women during our entire marriage and I never had a clue. There were a few “questionable” incidences that I now realize that I allowed him to lie his way out of. He KNEW that he could never admit to me that he had cheated because his ass would have been out my house and my life immediately. He admitted to Biddy that he cheated on her…of course it was all her fault as well as the numerous women that he cheated on her with…those bad, bad girls! However, she feels that since he admitted that he had cheated on her although he twisted the truth in a way that still made him appear to be the victim, that he is a changed man! Afterall he admitted all his wrongs to HER and felt that he could never be HIMSELF with me. He actually told her that and she thinks that makes her special! LOL! It’s like these animals have a 6th sense and can judge what lengths another person will allow them to go to before kicking them out. That’s why they can be SO confusing. At times, they appear to be honest and admit their “wrongs” and beg for forgiveness. It’s just they know which wrongs their victims will forgive and which ones they will not!
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
I think how couple work things out is between them.. but when going in one has all the assets and the other all the libility.. it’s one sided… and that is how mine was..
I have no children assets and he had debt and three kids and one child ill that will always need care.. I don’t want children at this late date and I told him that up front… he wanted a woman like me and a woman like me doesn’t want what he has to offer so he creates this bib business deal and this spin and for awhile it seems plausible…. but it isn’t…
he has nothing to offer a woman but debt and burdens.. and he tried.. he works so I felt sorry for him for awhile.. but if I needed him to help me .. no way… his resources what little he has goes to his ex and her kids… and his bossy emotionally cripple daughter wants to control everyone…
(Report abusive comment)
Stargazer says:
Tami,
I think it says a lot about the charm of a sociopath when he/she can convince their partner they are “changed” after a lifetime of cheating. Too bad they like to live like parasites off of others because they could probably make a fortune in Hollywood.
(Report abusive comment)
Stargazer says:
You know, when I think about all the energy that sociopath I dated put into conning the army (he faked a medical condition for 2 years!)….he could have done so much with that time and energy. A friend of mine actually offered him some part-time work doing roofing. It would have been very lucrative. The S turned it down because he had all kinds of “medical” appointments. The truth was that he was telling the army he couldn’t drive, couldn’t walk, talk, or feel anything from the waist down. So he had to rearrange his whole life to keep up the fraud. Many of you know the story of how I singlehandedly brought him down and got him convicted of fraud and adultery. (Okay, well maybe I gloated a little over that. lol)
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
Yes. Tami agree.. they sense what they can and can’t get away with..
when he met my father.. and family.. he saw that this was a real deal and his BS wasn’t going to fly… he would tell me to not mention his ‘deals’ to my Dad.. which made me suspecious.. anything real isn’t that secret… he knew now to play it so he got away with it for awhile.. but really I always saw through him..
but the day that he moved in after four months of dating.. and I found out that he was being evicted.. I should’ve kicked him out then… but I was in the spin.. and dream of the lie… that he loved me and things would be like he said.. but each month that ticked by .. I knew he was not for me.. he was not real.. he was spinning…the last time we were with my family at a family dinner.. he had a stomach ache the whole time.. I knew that he knew that he couldn’t play with the big boys.. I only saw him one time after that.. I had no respect for him… he was trying to act the business mogel and I knew the truth.. and I felt ashamed that I was with him… I told him.. why not just be a man.. he would alternate from being this spiritual guru to this master of the business world… one time, we were in the car and there was a dead animal on the street.. and he said that he was going to send energy to the animal to help it get to God…
Like God or the animal needs his help..
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
I kind of feel the same way. I don’t really expect a man to take care of me or even make as much money as I do BUT I do expect one to work at least 40 hours a week and contribute to the household! My S started off like that, he worked, he took care of the yard work, even washed my car and helped with the housework. I thought I’d found an angel! Well, that was short lived and ended right after I married him. We lived together for about 6 months before marrying.
My current husband takes care of EVERYTHING! I resigned from my job of 27 years shortly before we married and I now do the paperwork for his business…takes about 15 minutes a day. He WANTS to take care of me, yet he doesn’t try to control me, either. I manage all the money and he sometimes scolds me for not buying things for myself. I’m having a hard time adjusting to spending HIS money after resenting how it felt to have someone run free with MINE! But, I’m getting there. One of the first things he did when I accepted his marriage proposal was do some minor repairs on my car. I was tickled pink not to have to pay someone to do this! Two days later, he pulled in with a BMW and handed me the keys and told me to drive to the courthouse so I could register it in my name. I gave my older car to my son and it’s still clicking right along. Biddy has now bought my ex-S two trucks…I bought him four! So, yes, thank you, Biddy!
Ladies and gentlemen, there IS a light at the end of the tunnel. You won’t mess up the next time if you’ll continue to educate yourself on the behavior of S/N/Ps. You’ll be like a bloodhound when it comes to sniffing one out. Their behavior is classic and the poor fools ALL feel that they are such unique individuals!!!
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
Stargazer, it’s so funny that you would mention Hollywood. My ex S is a drummer in a band that plays local dives. I told Biddy several times that he missed his true calling when he chose to become a musician. I told her that he was a much more talented actor! LOL!
(Report abusive comment)
style1 says:
They are all great actors…
(Report abusive comment)
freshlyduped says:
style1 and tami,
I’m learning how to put my guard up in the future…at least in my next relationship. I’ve always been the trusting one but now I need to be smarter. Once duped, it’s his fault, twice duped, my fault!
I can’t believe your stories. Funny thing is, i can possibly see myself doing the same thing. I did pay for everything in the beginning – that’s b/c he doesn’t make that much in training (well, that’s what I told myself). He threw me a bone once in a while – took me to a nice Italian dinner, paid for things here and there but was NEVER a gentleman. No chivalry. No door opening, etc. He’d go straight to the driver door (of MY car btw b/c he said he didn’t own a vehicle –probably a lie) and leave me flailing in the wind. That was a small red flag but I let it go. I used to bring him food and cook for him. Thank God my instincts told me to stop. I know he was suspicious towards the end because my behavior changed. He even said that after I confronted him with facts about his wife and kids, he knew that I knew. I asked him when he was going to tell me – to which he replied, I don’t know… until the divorce went through (LIE!) or when I finish (LIE!), I don’t really know. ???WTF. That’s when I knew a screw was loose.
He has stopped stalking me for now. When and if I ever come close enough for conversation, I will tell him that he is a sociopath. Not sure how I will word it without making him vindictive. Do they get vindictive? I need to protect myself.
Tami – what a great tactic. Tin Man or Donald Duck. I’m seeing this doctor in a white coat with a big yellow bill and webbed feet. or a metal man who walks awkwardly through the halls of the hospital. you made me LOL!
Iwonder:
I’m afraid my facts will be too obvious if I post it on don’tdatehimgirl.com. wow, i’m so sorry for what your vampire put you through!!! sometimes I thank God that I discovered the real him before he reeled me in emotionally, and then financially. What you said is SO TRUE – the shock of knowing there are people like that out there. This shook me for days. I always had a voice inside that took note of his inconsistencies but just shot it down b/c I always concluded – he CANNOT be that evil and he CANNOT lie like this. There is NO WAY he would change his W2 tax status just so it would say SINGLE – JUST to persuade me to stay in this relationship. What man would connive and lie to cultivate a relationship? That would be ABSURD!! and you know what? It turned out to be 10x more absurd than I ever imagined. What a slap in the face.
But now I understand, they can’t feel anything. No love, hurt, remorse, guilt, sadness (maybe quick moments), shame, etc. This usually stops my thought process of reasoning it out b/c I tell myself, I am not going to understand him b/c I am not a sociopath.
FD
I am at day 8 of being free.
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
FD: No car is another red flag. My ex didn’t own a vehicle either when I met him. He was driving a car and told me it belonged to a guy in the apt house where he lives and that he let him use it. After I bought a car for him, and after our relationship ended, I found out that the car was actually owned by his ex-wife and he abandoned it after I bought him one. She wound up getting tickets for it being illegally parked and abandoned. I spoke with the ex-wife and found out alot more too. He abused her pretty bad…emotionally and physically. She left him. I met him a few months later while they were separated.
Want to hear a good one? He was still married to #1 when he met me and was going to file an annullment to marry me, #2. Meanwhile, while living with me, he was setting up #3. The web got stickier even yet because he told me #1 was already married when he met her and that divorce didn’t go through yet so technically, #1 was married to my ex-S and another guy. The story my ex-S gave was, “I didn’t know she was married when I met her. When I found out, I left her.” That was all BS. He knew #1 was married when he married her but thought it wasn’t recognized here because she was married in another country. I tell you, over the course of 18 months, we saw 3 lawyers to get that annullment so we could get married. It was all a Hollywood performance. The first 2 times he told the same story about how he didn’t know she was married. Then, he finally told me the truth. Well, I gave him $2,500 to pay a lawyer to straighten things out. He spent that money and never got divorced. Meanwhile he hooked #3.
When I found out about #3 and kicked him out, #1 and I got together and I gave her the address where she could serve the divorce papers. She had moved on and wanted that divorce for 2 years. She had to fly to NJ from FL to get things done. 2 days before the hearing, she spoke with the S. He never mentioned the court date to her at all. She said to me, “I wonder when I’m going to get a notice from the court. ” I told her not to go through the S, contact the court direct to see what’s going on. This is how she found out about the date. She showed up ….of course he didn’t expect her to. And she got her divorce finally.
What a mess. Thank God #1 was nice. She being the legal wife (or illegal?) may have entitled her to a piece of my condo because I his name on the deed.
So here it was. He was married to #1, engaged to #2 and had a girlfriend #3. I still think it was a scam..a fraud..in that #3 and him were out to get what they could from me. He thought he was going to get the car too.
Sorry for the long post. It is an unbelieveable story, I know.
(Report abusive comment)
henry says:
Howdy Iwonder – Long time no see. Yep no car is red flag. We discussed that before. No driver license is a red flag also, prolly has alot to do with the reason they don’t have a car. But seem’s they always have a vehicle. So Iwonder we dont have to #1 or #3 or #17 to anyine ever again. We are #1 to us now. But they did leave us with some great stories to tell..
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
Henry: The past is gone and thank God for that. It won’t happen again. Funny about how my ex never thought any of us would find out the truth. He never knew I could get in touch with #1 and he didn’t think I would ever get #3′s name or address too.
I wonder if #3 bought him a car and put his name on the deed to his condo. I know he moved his son into her condo right away. Ugh…who cares.
(Report abusive comment)
henry says:
Iwonder stop iwonderin~~!! I know I know – i still wonder too but in a different way. I realize how much like robot’s they are. Somebody will tighten their nut’s too tight someday, I am just glad he is a page in my history..
(Report abusive comment)
ErinBrock says:
Ya know…..
This has jogged mymemory…..the above wife #1….GF #2 yada….
At one point the S (I was about 16 at the time) came over my parents house, we were broken up for the millionth time……he showed up and asked me to come outside to talk…..I did (duhhhh!)…..he told me he was engaged?!?!?!!
ENGAGED? TO WHO? He said his buddy had a maid and he wanted S to marry her to make her legal……I didn’t believe him, so he brought me a MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE! He said it wasn’t legal yet…..
NOW i’m wondering if it was legal…..and he DID marry this woman???
Why would he have a marriage cert. and no legal marriage? It wasn’t as if they would have had the white dress type of, invite 200 people type wedding……
I bet he was/is legally married!
I’m gonna dig up this………I know the county, I saw the cert.
Howly moly…….
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
EB: You better check that out right away. A marriage certificate is a marriage certificate. Uh Oh.
(Report abusive comment)
Unbound Angel says:
Thank you Steve for a really great post.
The question of “why” has always been the hardest question for me.
Therapy had told me never to ask why..because in the end… ” the why of it” does not matter anymore..it just is…very hard concept to accept… your post put that into context for me which was very helpful (the rabid dog was brilliant)
Question for anyone…I have been on many boards for a very long time…and always wondered that if posting and chatting on these subjects somehow perpetuated the constant searching for answers ??… I found… the more I posted..the more questions I had…I was trying to understand “why” he did what he did…even tonight..I had a momentary thought about “how” he could do..what he did to me..and why?
Do we humans hold others to a standard that says everyone is good kind and loving and when we meet that “one” who is not…we try to figure out why instead of just acknowledging them for what they are and basing our choices on that.
any thoughts ?
(Report abusive comment)
henry says:
unbound angel – We can not hold a sociopath to any human standards. They are in a class unto themselves. Yes I think we can spend too much time trying to figure them out.
(Report abusive comment)
freshlyduped says:
Iwonder,
I am so stupid!! Now I’m recalling all the conversations about him not having a car. I feel so duped! He lives literally 5 min from the hospital and just LIVES at the hospital so I naturally thought it made sense. Why have a car when you’re trying to save money and especially when you don’t NEED one to get around b/c you live so close…but it’s LA – everyone has a CAR!! duh!!! of course later he told me his wife had a car b/c one would obviously need one to lug 3 kids around. He made up such elaborate stories about so and so dropping him off and picking him up, etc to get around town. omg, i feel so stupid right now. It is laughable. You know how many times I brought him back and forth to my house – I look like such a fool! I think I’m going to put my head in the microwave right now.
I’ve not felt like confronting him since after the confrontation but now I just want to smush it in his face. But then I realize he’d just make up a lie saying, oh I didn’t want to lose you and had to hide it from you that I did own a car. How can one’s conscience sit there with me picking him up from the hospital, taking him back to my house, then dropping him off in the morning, and driving back to my house!!!! I even offered to let him use my old car since it was just sitting in the garage b/c I felt sorry for him (which he refused)!!! omg, I am ILL.
I can’t believe your story!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have to pick my jaw up from the floor. I can barely keep the story straight while reading, how can a human keep it straight and live it for such a long time??? WOW is all I have to say. I wonder if my S has a #3, #4, #5, etc. I’d sure like to share stories. That must have been so therapeutic for you??
The only thing that makes me feel good (in a sick way) is that these sociopaths just can’t be living a happy life. There is no way, with this amount of evil and dysfunction in them, they are able to carry on a life that is worth drawing happiness from. With this level of evilness, how can he possibly be raising 3 healthy children and have a “loving, healthy” relationship with his wife of 10 years (w/a 7yo boy and 5yo twin girls which I know is true b/c I saw pics of them)? Or have a healthy family? or friends for that matter? He told me he was a loner/recluse in the beginning. That was probably my first red flag.
I’m going to throw up now. He is probably laughing so hard right now, I am so embarrassed.
(Report abusive comment)
Iwonder says:
FD:
“A wife of 10 years.” Nice guy. I wonder if he takes his wedding band off during his schtick and then puts it on when he goes home to wifey. Or does he go home to the 2 government officials?? LOL!! LOL!!!
I am telling you again that you are so lucky your friend tipped you off about him being married. Friends need to stick together like that. Some people would just shake their heads and say, “none of my business.”
(Report abusive comment)
freshlyduped says:
He doesn’t wear a wedding ring b/c he’s in the operating room all the time. None of the surgeons wear wedding rings so this was not really a red flag to me. I did a background check and he really has been married for 10 years. So this does not really match the behavior of a regular sociopath – jumping from relationship to relationship. but perhaps jumping from affair to affair – yes.
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
Freshly Duped and others,
I don’t think I’d consider his being married for 10 years not matching the behavior of a of sociopath. He’s still married because it’s the most convenient way of life for him right now and he has managed to keep his wife in the dark. Think of the child support he’d be facing for his two kids if they got a divorce. You say he has no money so child support payments is the LAST thing he wants!
Donald Duck it is! And, anytime he tries to speak with you about the two of you, close out his words and hear them as “quack, quack, quack, quack”. Speaking of quacks, I don’t want this guy performing surgery on me!
I was married to my ex-S for 8 years. When he was leaving, he told me that I should feel good about that because he had stayed longer with me than any other woman and that I was his record! No, I was the dumbest of all of the women prior to me! The others weren’t as slow to catch on! I think you’re right in thinking that he’s jumping from affair to affair…they HAVE to have something going ALL the time.
Hey! Mine had a car when he moved in with me! I even paid to have it towed to my house because it hadn’t ran in over 2 years!
Oh, and these marriage/divorces you all speak of. I was dumb enough to pay for my ex-s divorce because he was still legally married to wife number 2. He’s now had 4 wives whom he has no children with but has children with 2 previous girlfriends. Fine fellow! Never sees his kids but tells a pitiful story of how the mothers won’t all him to.
(Report abusive comment)
Spirit40 says:
OMG… why Quack quack quack?? that is what my ex used to say?? is that an AA term?? how come they can use this on us???
Yeah no car, no license if that isnt a red flag what is… I tried to help get his license back he didnt want to pay the money! go figure….good stay a loser….does it really matter to me… yeah when my car insurance got canceled that is how I found out…what jerks…. who need em….I think we need the LF questionnaire on dating someone… start off with How do you feel about such and such? What does empathy mean to you? and when they respond with
“well I am HOT” and you should do anything you can to keep me that is when we run like hell in the other direction……
(Report abusive comment)
pollyannanomore says:
I think they should all be branded with the words “serial asshole” on their foreheads so they’re easy to recognise
The it moved here, let his native licence lapse and didn’t bother paying the fee to ‘swap’ it for one in my country. So he drove illegally for eight yrs in defiance of the law with no licence. I wondered every day when he would get caught. No conscience – no fear, no anxiety at all. Only when his job forced him to get one and followed up with dates they expected parts of it to be achieved did he get off his ass and get it sorted.
This one was sneaky with money. He spent all his earned money on rubbish for himself forcing me to take care of all the household expenses and bills. Sneaky and nasty. And because he had a bad credit rating and the bills were in joint names, I had no choice but to pay them or my credit rating would have been ruined too. He took on tens of thousands for TOYS – tech equipment for this amazing new business or vocation he was going to get off the ground. He had some great ideas but no motivation and no planning – so no action. Thank goodness I never got tied up in any investment or business scheme with him – things couold have been much worse.
He also has no car of his own – his work has provided a company car and he is proud of the fact he didn’t need to buy it – a win for him – pathetic for a grown man.
(Report abusive comment)
Spirit40 says:
Yeah they are all sneaky with “their” money but frivolous with OURS!!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
Hey, for those you who had the fortunate of experience of already owning/buying your own homes and then allowing them to move in with you, did your S/N/Ps ever refer to the house payment and utilities associated with the home as YOUR debts?!? Hey, I married this nut, even added him to the deed to property although the home was financed in my name only. It was HIS home, too. It was his shelter, he benefited from all the utilities by staying warm, water, phone, cable TV, etc. However, he didn’t feel that he should pay MY bills. Also, on the rare occasion that he MIGHT cut the grass or weedeat, he’d come in and definatly announce that MY grass was cut or that MY weedeating was done! WTF?
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
I meant defiantly announce…can’t typ today!
(Report abusive comment)
tami says:
TYPE!!! Good grief!
(Report abusive comment)
Spirit40 says:
Yep……I made the mistake of wanting him back after my father past….and we moved cross country, thank god the house fell through, thank god I did not sign the will leaving him in charge of what happens to me, thank god he is not on my child’s birth certificate…he sat around and drank all day(blamed me for enabling him)…. bought him vehicle that he thought was HIS POSSESSION, I kept telling him no license, no money to pay the bills I need to sell it!
Oh boy I was stoopid for selling it for that price I got screwed well… who cares I sold it because YOU WOULDNT PAY THE RENT, I WAS PAYING ALL THE BILLS….
Wait it gets better…. now I AM GETTING EVICTED… longer more convoluted story…. the plot is juicy but its all made up in my head, he used the landlord to humiliate me as well….. who knows if he had an affair with the old bat as well…. but I AM THE ONE WHO IS RUDE so I am being evicted as he says… it was not because he didnt HELP pay the bills….. Sorry I needed to VENT wooo I feel a little better……
How can they have the audacity? to think the world owes them… while they live off other people? and leave when the going gets tough … COWARDS
(Report abusive comment)
freshlyduped says:
Tami
maybe Tin man is better b/c he has no heart. You all seem to be ‘generally’ over your S duping you with the infidelities and the leech-like behaviors. Last night, I went to bed shaking after I realized he probably had a car the whole time. I am still so in the dark. I say that I can assume everything was a lie but to be confronted with it hurts like hell. How do I get past this phase?? I feel like I took a major step back last night.
Yes, you’re right about the marriage/kids. I read more and realized that HE needs the wife/kids to make him look like an upstanding surgeon who has a family, etc. They are there for the purpose of him, not the other way around. He has no interest in loving his children or taking part in their growth, only if it makes him look good. The wife is there to make him look good. Of course he made her out to be the witch. “oh, she brainwashed the kids to not like me, etc” And if they left, he would feel angry, but not necessarily missing them. It’s a different perspective I guess.
(Report abusive comment)
Dianne Cadogan says:
I just have to comment on one thing that bothers me about all the information given about AsPD. In all I read, abuse or neglect is always mentioned in the personal history of the sociopath. I believe my daughter is a sociopath but there was never, ever any neglect or abuse. She was raised in a stable home with loving parents and four siblings who have turned out to be wonderful, productive, caring adults. You’re right when you say it doesn’t really matter how the sociopath came to be but not all sociopaths come from dysfunctional or destructive backgrounds. I have spent years trying to figure out what’s up with my daughter and where we went wrong. We didn’t go wrong, i truly believe she was born this way.
(Report abusive comment)
amber says:
FD…The initail finding out hurts like hell, but in the months to come be prepared to find things out that will shock you even more. That was always the case with my EX S. I went to bed many times shaking after finding the truth out after the fact. And then I sit there and try and put all the pieces of the puzzle together and it hurts when I i figure it out and things click. And the worst part is, we had such a small group of close friends so I still hear things that make me cringe. For instance, the last time I found him cheating on me, he swore up and down she has just always been a friend which of course I didn’t believe for a second….blah blah blah…well, my sister went out a couple nights ago with all of our old friends and they were like, oh yeah they’ve been dating for a while, we were wondering where amber was. And the general consensus is that everyone thinks she’s really strange. A few people have said, Whoa that’s a step down (which I have to add, makes me feel good) and another friend said that he thinks she’s really weird becasue the one time they talked all she talked about were guns. So good. Sounds like two S/P have found each other and maybe they will kill each other off in the end.
My ex is married with kids too. He can tell me till he’s blue in the face that he’s a good dad, but a dad that spends that much time away from home, that’s a liar, a cheater and a cokehead is not a good dad. They only have these families to look normal to their extended family or for their careers. He would often say that his kids were the only people that could still love him becuase they didn’t know the truth. But that will change. They are 10 and they will grow up to realize that their dad is unavailable and a horrible person. The only reason that he went to rehab is because his kids found his stash and the wife told him it’s rehab or you’re out. Well, he went to rehab to make her happy, but I don’t think he was clean more than a month before he was using again.
And I agree that there’s no way they are living happy lives. Mine had no issue telling me how much he hated himself. That he wishes that he could just die, so the pain would stop. First red flag should have been on our second date he said that he destroyed everything that he touched and that he wasn’t a very good person, and he wanted to warn me what kind of person I was getting involved with. (why I didn’t run then, I’m still trying to figure out.) He would tell me that he didn’t see good in himself. That he was dark, empty, didn’t feel anymore. And he knew it was because of the destructive life he lived. I just always questioned that if he knew that the way he was living made him hate himself so much, then why not try and change? And it’s as if he couldn’t control it. That it was in his DNA. And people like this I truly believe can’t change.
That is the only thing that makes me happy at the end of the day. I know the truth. I know the hell that he is really living. How unhappy he truly is. He can’t keep up his act forever. He can’t pretend to play it off to the rest of the world, but he let me in, and I KNOW. That may be his biggest mistake in the end. I know right now he’s living in fear that I am going to detroy his world, the world that he has everyone else believing. He’s afraid I will out him for what he truly is. Maybe I will, maybe I won’t. But at the end of the day, I have the ability to move on and be FREE and HAPPY. He doesn’t. He will continue this viscous cycle until his insides rot completely, or he has a heart attack from the copious amounts of cocaine he does. (either of which can’t come soon enough) Karma will catch up with him someday. Educate yourself, stay positive and be thankful that this man didn’t steal more of your life. You’re free now! Stay strong. There will be set backs, but as long as you know that and you have the knowledge and the strength to know how to deal with those setbacks, you’ll be ok. Good luck to you. Hugs.
(Report abusive comment)
pollyannanomore says:
You are all correct that the wife or partner and kids are to give a show of normalcy to the outside world and some stability to the crazy life.
Dianne – the literature seems to solidly point to a minimum of 50% of this disorder being inherited – brain scans and linguistic tests show stark differences – psychopaths don’t light up in pleasure centres for nice things the way regular people do – they light up in pleasure centres watching images of torture, pain and death. They also cannot recognise emotion either in the voice or facial features of other people. So it almost looks like a disability they are born with – or should we call it a lifestyle advantage. However unlike folk with Aspergers, Autism spectrum disorders psychopaths wreak so much havoc on others and cannot be cured so it raises some interesting societal questions – should they be locked away to protect others?
The ex psych always got the best deal during the marriage. He would pay the rent and I would pay all the bills and groceries and EVERYTHING else – clothes, doc appts, socialising expenses, pets, car problems. Somehow he convinced me it balanced out. He moved back after a yr of separation as a flatmate as he pulled such a pity play, let his life crumble around him in ‘depression’ and made me so guilty for ending it (now I know that was just another hook for more manipulation). From the minute he moved back he paid half the mortgage and that was it – no utilities, no half the groceries nothing. He would bring a couple of cat tins a week or a milk or loaf of bread – certainly not half of what was spent.
They are such shameless pigs – how do we get so entangled?
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Dear dianne,
I have a psychopathic son, and he started acting out at puberty and it got worse and worse, he is now in priosn for murder and has been for 20 years. the thing is that my biological fatehr (that he never met) is a flaming, violent Psychopath, and my son is just his image…I believe strongly that hereditary influences in my son;s case were very HIGH, and can trace this back through the generations on both sides of mY family and on his fahter’s side as well.
Why does one kid turn out like that, why do the P-genes switch ON and when? Who the heck knows, but the point is that once they are switched on and at SOME point in time they become BEYOND redemption, because they are not bonded to the rest of the human race except in the same way a TICK is bonded to a dogs ear—as a parasite.
I know that having a P child is a heartbreaking situation but do not “blame” yourself in any way—the fact that your other kids turned out well is a testimony to both their genes and your nurturing. None of us are perfect parents, but you can’t make a ‘SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOW’S EAR” and frankly I think I gave birth to something that was a sow’s ear from the get go. I just didn’t want to believe it—and waffled for decades trying to find a way to save him. Can’t do it. So now I am saving myself!
(Report abusive comment)