When nurture becomes nature
There comes a time when nurture becomes nature.
This is the time when nurture and nature become inextricable, inseparable.
I suspect nobody knows precisely when this point arrives in the development of a given individual, but the immediate ramification is this: When you are involved specifically with a sociopath, or any exploitative personality, it is imperative that you stop asking how this person became who he is?
Sure, he likely endured—and was shaped by—some form of neglect or abuse growing up, and if this wasn’t obvious in the history, it was still likely there.
But here’s the point: it doesn’t matter. Not one bit.
Instead, you must relinquish your empathy, compassion and curiosity—in short, every emotion that supports your obsession to understand the genesis and evolution of your exploiter’s pathology—and confront the reality that you are dealing with (as I propose) a case of nurture becoming nature, about which there’s not a damned thing, at this point, to be done.
The damage, in other words, was baked into his character a long time ago. There is no ameliorating it now. Not all the love in the world—nothing that you have, or think you have, or thought you had to give him—will dent the petrification of his psychopathology.
His diseased personality disease is immutable, as good as etched in his DNA. Case closed.
And so what you do is this: You run for the hills, just as you’d run from a rabid dog that perhaps once was innocent and gentle. Now the dog is rabid: it no longer matters how it became rabid. And so you run, fast, and you don’t look back, because every second you allow false hope to delay you increases your risk of grievous harm.
You may have loved that dog; maybe loved it before it became rabid, or maybe it was rabid all along and you just didn’t know it. And maybe you even still love that rabid dog, or the persisting fantasy of it as unrabid.
But the dog is rabid, and a rabid dog doesn’t love you, and it was probably rabid going way back and never really loved you as you once imagined, but again…it makes no difference.
There are rabid animals, and there are rabid people, and neither loves you.
And so the time for analysis, of him, is up.
To be clear: I appreciate the need to make sense of trauma. But at some point, the analysis of exploiters can assume an obsessive desperation that subverts, rather than supports, the processing of trauma.
I speak here from the position of having worked with many victims of exploitive personalities who are very much like stunned deer caught, and as if suspended indefinitely, in the headlights.
One of the vital tasks is to unstun them.
And sometimes the dogged determination to “make sense” of, to “analyze” the exploitive traumatizer can be a disguised obsession with discovering something in the history (his or yours) that you insist on imagining would have made a difference…would have made him different?
We can search this angle interminably. And unless we call off the search, we will.
And it’s a search we’re wise to call off because it can effectively bring us to a standstill, forever.
(My use of “he” in this article was a convenience, not meant to imply that women aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Steve,
THE BEST ARTICLE ON LF—GETS THE PLATINUM SKILLET AWARD FROM ME!!!!
I think every victim in some way, manner, or time has been obscessed with the “why” s/he is like they are (destructive) and hopes to “fix” them, and as we go through the grief of the separation we try to “bargain” with God or the Universe to find some way to “fix” them. I know I sure did—for decades with my P son—
I used to have a sign in my office that said “I feel so much better sinice I gave up HOPE” and I thought the sign was funny at the time, but now, I know it is GREAT WISDOM. As long as we hang on to the toxic hope that we can somehow fix the toxic individual, we will suffer.
Your use of the RABID DOG to represent the psychopaths and the toxic people is GREAT!!! RIGHT ON!!!
Back in the 1930s there was an outbreak of rabies in our area, and my grandfather’s dog was licking his hands which had some cuts on them from the farm work he did. He really loved that dog, too. When the dog started showing signs of the rabies, my grandfather shot it, but he had to take the 30 shots which at that time were given to people who had been exposed to rabies, all administered in the stomach.
Today it is only about five shots, and they are given in the muscles like any other shot, but still not pleasant.
The reason I am giving this example is that sometimes even expressions of AFFECTION, from a rabid dog can be TOXIC and dangerous and cause grave consequences. And you can’t always tell that they are rabid by looking. Just like a P though, eventually you can tell they are toxic/rabid though.
Your advice at the first sign of someone being “rabid” is correct, RUN BAMBI RUN!!!!!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 7:58am
Easy says:
And then we agonise over the discard when It is the best thing that could ever Happen to us!
A Monkey will push the bar for the reward of Cocain untill it is dead!
To persist to Figure him out or (Help) Him is the same thing!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 8:00am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, thanks so much. Always glad and reassured, when I get your positive feedback, as I respect your knowledge and wisdom. Thanks again!!
Steve
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 9:54am
Donna Andersen says:
Steve,
A very powerful piece. I agree with Oxy – the analogy of the rabid dog is excellent.
Thank you for this terrific insight.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:07am
newlife08 says:
Steve,
Always right on time – you are astonishing ….my never ending resource for insight, reality and validation……spoken with tenderness AND the assuredness we need to hear ……that it could never have been any different and the WHY’s don’t matter ………………
Tuesday would have been our 19th wedding anniversary. I wasn’t sure how I would feel – if I would spend the day crying or if it even mattered.
Turns out – after much thought – I didn’t feel so bad ……..a little sad perhaps for all the lost time and investment – and how he is still so abusive.
When the day was not overwhelming at all -but spent uncelebrated as most of our anniversaries were when together – I realized that I have really given up the hope – of it ever being any different, of him getting better – of ever thinking of a past or future that could have been different.
My struggles have become so much more clear because of you ……
and I thank God for that – truly.
Three minutes to read what I have not been able to put together for myself – you are AMAZING !!!!!!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:41am
Matt says:
Steve:
“…many victims of exploitive personalities who are very much like stunned deer caught, and as if suspended indefinitely, in the headlights….One of the vital tasks is to unstun them. ”
And how do you do that? You turn off the lights.
The metaphor is perfect in the context of dealing with the aftermath of an S. Part of our recovery is to shine the light on these creatures — not only to get a grip on what they did and how they did it, but also to expose them. I believe it was Justice Brandeis who said “Sunshine is the best disenfectant.”
The problem is that it is so easy to move from the man turning the spotlight on the S, to the dear in the headlights, to ultimately developing “Kleig eyes” (an old Hollywood symptom which actors developed blindness from looking too long into the Kleig spotlights). The solution to Kleig eyes was turning off the lights and covering your eyes so they could heal and you could see again. Similarly, there is a point where the victim of an S has to give up understanding the cause of what happened to them and turn the focus on themselves.
Again, an excellent article.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:45am
Cat says:
Steve,
A more timely article, for me, cannot be found. I spent years trying to understand why this person was the way he was. I agonized over this. I am working more today on understand ME than him. My greatest eye opener, epiphany, whatever you might call it, was in seeing that he had never put that much energy into me, nor would he. He only learned as much as he needed to learn in order to get what he wanted. Years vs. minutes. Doesn’t add up and never will. HOW he got to be what he is will never be something I understand and today I thank God for that. I realized too, that if I ever DID understand him completely, then I would BE just as he is; cold, manipulative and heartless. I am sure I’m not alone when I say this cost me emotionally, mentally and financially as well. Indifference has become my best friend where this P is concerned.
Thank you for a wonderful article.
Cat
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 11:04am
justabouthealed says:
Perfect Steve. Your articles keep me coming back to LF. Even though the above lesson was drummed into my head by a psychiatrist at a children’s hospital regarding some foster children we tried to help…which was perhaps the saddest realization of my life…. I still had to learn the same lesson again with the bad man.
The more we are enticed by the dream of what would be if the bad man were normal, or by how enticing his false image is, of perhaps by how it flatters our opinion of ourselves, or by how awed we are by his position or power….the harder it is to accept the truth that this is a bad man. And it is harder yet to get that through our heads if everyone around us seems fooled by the Wizard of Oz performance. But usually we find out that others who have gotten close have learned the ugly truth too. That the show dog is rabid.
The analogy works too, in that it is SO easy to get infected by their sick world view. All the more reason to run. I felt compelled to shout “rabid dog, rabid dog!”, but I made sure I was safe first.
I think, too, that if we spend TOO much time going over our own history, analysis turns into self-abuse disguised as “healing”. At some point, we have to turn our attention to TODAY, living in the moment and making positive choices for ourselves, as Louise’s article on no contact beginning in our mind underscores. As did Donna’s recent post on her main points in her new book.
Can’t wait for your next article! I check every day!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 11:36am
Elizabeth Conley says:
I have been reflecting quite a bit lately with regard to neuroplasticity. Why is it that the relatively healthy people I know have been able to harness their capacity for change, and the disordered personalities I know have not?
Seriously – most successful people I know continue to change and evolve in all stages of their lives. They change – often radically.
Why don’t cluster Bs change?
I think cluster Bs don’t change because they don’t want to change. As unsuccessful as their lives may seem to the rest of us, they are pleased with what they see as accomplishments. We see broken relationships, they see successful scams. We see loneliness, and they see self-sufficiency. Their lives seem tragic to us, but not to them.
All the changes I’ve seen in healthy personalities have been volitional. More than that, they’ve been choices that required remarkable stamina and dogged determination in order to realize results.
So no matter how many crocodile tears are shed, we shouldn’t imagine that a cluster B is going to change. They are even less likely to change if we fall for their claims that they want to change. Our gullibility in this matter will simply be understood by the cluster B as one more incident where his/her dishonest behavior “worked” for him/her.
Just walk away.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 11:49am
amber says:
This article couldn’t be more true. My ex S was a rabid dog in human form. Acceptance has been the hardest part for me. The acceptance to know that nothing will change him. I exhasusted myself trying to “fix” him and walking away was the hardest thing I ever did. And now I’m left with the “what ifs” and I “should haves.” I know I want answers. I want to know why…how…but continuing to obsess over him only does more damage. I have to accept that I may never know those answers. Letting go. Being free. Never looking back.
Thanks Steve.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 12:37pm
Rosa says:
Yes, life can sure throw you some curve balls.
One minute, you think you’ve got the “Best In Show” at the Westminster Kennel Club Dog Show.
The next, your dog is running around, foaming at the mouth, biting everyone who comes within striking distance.
And, you are left with no other choice but to go No Contact on the dog you once considered to be a “prize”.
You sure as heck are not going to go up to the rabid dog, and start asking questions about its “puppyhood”.
~I’m running with the rabid dog analogy here.
Hopefully, you get the picture. I think the picture is NO CONTACT.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 12:40pm
Twice Betrayed says:
This is a very good article on letting go. Tough to do. I married two P’s and their early years were very much alike…….both had cruel, demanding, abusive fathers and doting mothers. In all this I have some understanding tho and it’s this; it’s up to the father to lead [also by example] these boys into manhood and when he fails to do that either by abuse or weakness [or absence] and the boy’s mother dotes on him…he seems to be stuck in a limbo of never growing up. Add that to genetics and a choice to remain stuck and I have my P’s. This is my understanding and beyond that I cannot go…and have had to face this….It’s NOT my job to fix everything and everyone- contrary to what I was raised to think. I was raised with pressure from a confused and troubled brother to think I was responsible to ‘keep the peace’ from the time I was little. So…I stepped into the same role as an adult for these males. Broken wing syndrome is not who I am any longer. Some things are broken and it’s not my job to fix them….I have accepted this fact and I am finally free. Ahhhhh, does it feel good!!!!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:07pm
witsend says:
Rosa,
I just wanted to mention a book that a counselor borrowed me to read.
It does not represent your situation nor mine but some of the material within the book is very helpful and I think it might be even more helpful in your situation because your niece is so young. And you might see signs as she grows that you might counter act.
She gave it to me to read because it does explain what happens to children of trama and abuse.
The book title is: When a stranger calls you mom.
It is written for foster parents. Who foster (or adopt) children from tramatic enviornment. The author is a doctor and adoptive parent. She really zeros in on the childs behaviors and damaged child within.
Much of what I read has been very helpful to gain understanding of alot of things.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:14pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
Thank you!
I just found it online.
I will get that book.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
witsend says:
Rosa,
The more I read the more I think you will gain some very helpful information.
I wish I could read parts of it online to you….
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:42pm
Rosa says:
Don’t worry about it, Witsend.
I’m getting that book.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:47pm
witsend says:
I was gone a few days last weekend and since my return things had been pretty low key. I have been trying to remain VERY low key since the police incident. And just kind of in a “waiting” mode. Waiting until that 17th B-day.
The difference since my return after being gone for 2 days though is that my son also was pretty low key. Until yesterday…..He was suspended from school for not giving his i-pod to the asst. principal. This initself is not the issue. It was only a matter of time. He has “almost” been suspended a few times and has just been “walking” that fine line for awile.
The issue is of course is what comes out of his mouth not the actual suspension. And his distorted thinking. If he had given the i-pod to his teacher, (who promised to return it after class) he would have never been sent to the office. Once the principal gets involved a PARENT has to go to the school to get the i-pod returned. He could have avoided both getting sent to the office and getting suspended…..However HE doesn’t SEE it that way.
He came home ranting and raving how they can’t take his personal property away from him….He showed them. How dare they even try.
I allowed him to rant and rave and at some point asked him how he might have avoided all this? How HIS choices got him into this to begin with. JUST TRYING to point out the obvious.
1) shouldn’t bring i-pod to school. 2) if bring i-pod to school you are RISKING having it taken away because it is against the rules. 3) teacher asked for it and was willing to give it back after class, HIS choice to decline. 4) asst. principal gave him last chace of giving it up before facing suspension.
All of this was completely foreign to him. (as usual) That he did have CHOICES. But lead him into another rant…..And I don’t often get this insite. He was talking about how he himself was going to live a rule free life and how he was actually going to be the one who changes the rules in the world. And sounding so frikking delusional BUT CONVINCED that he is really something and is going to change the world.
His lack of being grounded in ANY situation, his lack of reality is really getting to be pretty scarey. The more insight I get from him of actually how he percieves things and how he thinks…….It is mind boggling.
I was in the living room with him a few hours after this and he was trying to push my buttons. I couldn’t help but think that I just do not know the depths of his anger. I felt like I was in the presence of a stranger.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 2:56pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Thank you, friends…Donna, NewLife, Cat, Amber, Matt, JustAboutHealed…others I may have missed…thanks so much for your appreciative words and your own insights. i know i sound like a broken record saying it, but it really does inspire me hugely to learn, through your generous feedback, that what I’m writing speaks to you.
Best!
Steve
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 3:05pm
witsend says:
Steve,
Excellent article. Analogys seem to really put a different light on things to really help us understand what we can’t see in our own “personal” situation.
I would like to know if you have have done any personal counseling with parents of a disordered child, such as myself.
If so I certainly would love to see an article that might be helpful in my own personal situation.
It might also bring to this board other parents that are struggling with this situation and even bring back some of the old posters that have posted in the past, and what has happened since they posted last.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 3:12pm
OxDrover says:
Dear witsend,
Yes, our sons became “strangers” and they are pretty doggone strange in the way they SEE things differently than we do. It is almost like my color blind husband didn’t see the same world I did…and they seem to be RULE and LOGIC blind, to say nothing about how IMPORTANT they feel, so egocentric that they single handedly will CHANGE the world, RULE the world and are ALL POWERFUL.
I realize that all teenagers are pretty egocentric (Goodness knows I was one!) but their sense of entitlement goes so BEYOND what a “normal” teenager does that it is out of the universe of any kind of logic. At least normal teenagers do to soem extent accept that there are consequences.
With my P son there was no “stick” that scared him and no “carrot” that motivated him. It was such a helpless feeling when I was trying to find either a carrot or a stick that he cared about. If you held out a carrot that you knew he wanted, he would immediately devalue it and NOT WANT it, and if you held out a stick, oh, well, he wasn’t scared of it.
If no carrot and no stick works—unless you have a gun and are prepared to pull the trigger, there is nothing that can stop them except arrest and incarceration and even then, they thrive in a prison environment, like a psychopathic PhD program provided on a government scholarship! Frustrating as hell!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 3:28pm
Twice Betrayed says:
they thrive in a prison environment, like a psychopathic PhD program provided on a government scholarship! Frustrating as hell!”
Ohhh, very well worded!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 4:42pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I had been playing telephone tag with the asst. principal (since yesterday when this happened) and I just finally talked to him a few minutes ago.
Of course only hearing my sons version of the story up until now I knew there was some things that he didn’t tell me about the situation. There was.
It is interesting to know that they had a TEAM in the office trying to persuade my son to give up his i-pod instead of being suspended. The teacher, the at risk counselor and the asst. principal (who actually is a pretty cool guy and most kids really like him)
NO ONE could even get him to listen to any reasoning (well DUH) Haven’t I been trying to tell them this all along??
They have a TEAM and can’t reach him and some of these same people judge me for my lack of being able to do anything with him!!!
My son told the asst. principal that his i-pod helps him to focus better in this computer class.
Long after the others left the asst. principal said he talked with my son about ADHD and focus issues. He tried to get him to agree to consider possibly taking medication or other tools he might use to help him.
Of course he flatly refused because he doesn’t have ADHD he just focuses better with his i-pod.
I guess for me it was interesting to hear this guys frustration with just ONE small altercation with my son.
Maybe just MAYBE he can envision my frustration of dealing with this kind of thing all the time.
He really is a good guy and tries to put “himself” in the kids corner. He is new to our school district this year and has had alot of good things said about him. But good guy or not it all falls on deaf ears…..How well I know that feeling.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 4:54pm
Lace says:
I came across LF a few months ago and it has saved my life and my sanity. I have a P husband-of that I am certain now,but at the time I believed that I was losing my mind,because that’s what he told me. My story is similar to the people I have found here but he’s done so many bizarre,incredible and shocking things that I found it easier to believe I had simply lost my mind-as losing my mind seemed more logical than believing that he was crazy.
I am now armed with knowledge but still cannot get him to leave my home. We have been married for ten yrs and have two children. I am glad that I have realized what I am dealing with but boy have I wasted so long in trying to fix the unfixable. I still have trouble accepting that he cannot/does not realize what he has done and continues to do. Example: he sold my jewellery but sees nothing wrong in that-but I took a pen of his and he calls me a “thieving bitch!”
I have read every article on this blog and I can’t tell you how much it has helped me to cope. I finally broke down at work and sobbed for three hours, my boss was amazing and said she couldn’t believe I had been under so much strain. I have seen a councellor who told me exactly what Steve has written-it is not my job to fix him. I know this but am fighting my urge to make him SEE. He never will and I just want to be free. I am 43and I want a life. He has put me in so much debt.
I would love any advice on how to get him to leave. I don’t want to involve police because of the children. He knows he’s not wanted here-how he stays is beyond my level of comprehension. He uses the pity play on the kids and as it no longer works with me he just treats me very badly.
Thank you all,especially Steve,for saving my sanity and my life.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 4:58pm
JaneSmith says:
Steve,
I can so relate to your resigned, determined perspective. Once you educate yourself regarding the predictable, universal behavior/personality characteristics of PDIs, you’ve learned all you needed to learn to get out and stay as far away as possible.
You’re right: they are pathological, incorrigible, irredeemable, dangerous personified and deadly.
Trying to reform them, trying to reassure them, coddle them with love and care is a total waste of time and energy. It just won’t happen. It is a stagnant place to inhabit and that can’t be good for any decent person.
I’ve spent years reseaching PDIs and as Mr. Beck wrote in People of the Lie, being exposed to evil and then spending an inordinate time studying it can be detrimental to my own soul.
So, I no longer read the very imformative books available. I have all the knowledge I need to protect myself.
I much prefer spending my finite time checking out awesome, inspiritational, soul enriching environments, situations, people, literature, art, the profound beauty of natural settings which feed my spirit with peace and joy.
Thanks for the reminder that it’s best just to shrug and walk away. At a fast paced trot if necessary.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 5:52pm
OxDrover says:
Dear TB–
You liked that did you? LOL Oh, but it is soooooo true. I firmly believe that they ENJOY the challenges of life in prison, putting on over on the guards and admiinistration, conning with other cons—it is like a “heaven for psychopaths” and a school for them to learn new crimes and new ways of getting one over on “the man.”
Every time they pull fa fast one on the authorities they get reinforced on just how “smart” and “successful” they are. It feeds their ego. LOL the old “it is better to RULE in hell than to serve in heaven.” (don’t remember who said that but that is the P-mantra!) My son actually considers himself a SUCCESS in life. He thinks his “education” in prison fits him for the CEO of “Madoff Inc” or “dictator” of some third world republic.
He is, after all the single smartest person in the universe, and if you don’t believe it, just ASK him! He compares himself to the “hacks” (prison guards) and the other inmates and he is a “cut above” them….but what eh doesn’t see is that the most stupid prison guard at least can LEAVE THERE WITHOUT HANDCUFFS. All his high IQ and all his coniving and conning don’t make a whit of difference, he is still a CONVICT. the lowest of the low. He has no respect from anyone in the world except a few gang-bangers who can’t count higher than 20 because that is all the fingers and toes they have. What good does his IQ do? No non-convict would admire anything about him. No woman with even half her teeth who wasn’t a crack ho and less than 60 years old would consider him a “catch” yet he still considers that he is going to get out and get some playboy bunny or a series of play boy bunnies, and a fast hot car, and a lot of money and live the life of ease and have others envy him. WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Years ago I read a book called “The Felon” (can’t remember who wrote it) but it was a sociological study of what felons fantasize about while they are locked up, and how DIFFERENT it is from the REALITY they get out to. I thought at the time that my P son was more realistic than he is, but I see now that he is just like the felon with the 3rd grade education who has this fantasy of coming out, the hot babe girl friend, the executive job, the fast hot car, etc. and the reality is that NONE OF THIS IS POSSIBLE, so they immediately go back to crime and the criminal friends they had or new ones they make.
My son does NOT have a single person who knew him before he went to prison that would pee on him if he was on fire. NOT ONE. The ONLY “friends” he has are men he has met in prison. Most of them have a grade school education at best, are essentially illiterate, so they look up to my son’s “smarts” but HOW SMART CAN HE BE if he has been caught and prosecuted and convicted of about every crime he ever committeed? LOL ROTFLMAO He isn’t even a “successful” criminal if “success” means he got away with it.
Oh,, and the self agrandizing lies he tells other convicts about what his crimes were and how he was betrayed (not caught) and how much money his family has and so on. Really builds himself up as this “Robin Hood” of criminals, he only kills those bad guys that deserved it….not a helpless 17 yr old girl.
Ah, yes, the fantaxy world of the P.! success at every turn!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 5:57pm
style1 says:
Very good article and comparison..
And it only confirmed for me my choice.. get away and NO CONTACT.. the longer I am away and when I have remembering, I KNOW.. this man is a con, a destroyer of the soul and a user… and any of my good memories are to be seen only as a part of his seduction.. I feel stronger now and more solid as each day passes… He needed me.. I never needed him.. he tried to create my need of him and he failed.. I am FREE from the rabid dog!
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 7:35pm
quest says:
Hi Folks
I hate to change the subject but I have an urgent question . A friend and I were discussing relationships etc . He has just met a new woman and so from time to time she also came up in the conversation . I have never met her so basically when she did come up in the conversation I had to go by his observation and try to analyse what was going on .
Suddenly he asked ,” What does it mean when a woman does baby talk quite often “.
Well my first reaction was , holly shit , my psychopathic X did that all the time . Is this a symptom of something significant or is it something that a lot of women do . Thinking back I do not recall being exposed to a lot of women that spoke in this fashion on a regular basis . Any input would be appreciated . Has my friend found himself a potential nasty or is she harmless .
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 9:05pm
henry says:
Steve Becker – A very good article. I have obsessed and obsessed, analyzed and analyzed. I am very nuturing by nature. It’s who I am, it’s what I do, it’s part of my job. I can remember saying here that I look forward to the day he is not the first thought in my mind when I wake. I reached that milestone months ago. It’s like Jane said, we can choose to be miserable or happy. It does take time to process what happened, if we dont process and analyze it then we dont learn.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:15pm
henry says:
Quest – Sounds to me like this gal is looking for a daddy. Does your guy friend find this baby talk anoying or does he like it? If it get’s on his nerves he should bail out. Or maybe he is looking for a daddy’s girl?
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:28pm
Rosa says:
Quest:
I happen to be a female, so I will give you a female’s opinion (mine) on the baby talk.
Yes, I believe women who engage in baby talk with their men are being totally cunning and manipulative.
Does your friend have some money, a nice car, or some real estate maybe??? I’ll bet he does.
I’ve seen women turn on the baby talk when they think they have a potential “sugar daddy” in the works.
What’s even more pathetic, I’ve actually seen men start to engage in baby talk themselves with their girlfriends, because the girlfriend is doing the baby talk. I guess it becomes sort of contagious, and so now you have two grown adults talking baby talk. Jesus Christ!!!
Maybe I am not a very good person to be giving my opinion, because I absolutely cannot stand baby talk.
I don’t even like it when people talk “baby talk” to babies.
How is a child supposed to learn how to speak properly when you are talking in terms of “goo”.
I don’t know, Quest, that’s just my opinion.
Maybe someone else who does not have such a negative opinion of baby talk will give you some more positive feedback.
I would still tell your friend to beware.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:30pm
amber says:
My ex S baby talked me ALL the time. At first I thought it was kinda cute. Like AWWWWW this GROWN man loves me so much he’s been reduced to baby talk. But later in the relationship…it was constant…and the pouting…and he even HOWWWLLLLEEDDDDDD like a dog when he was upset or didn’t get his way. This high pitch, long howl like a coyote?!?!? WTF?!?! I literally mean howl…funny since this thread has to do with a rabid dog. He really was a rabid dog!! Now that I look back there were so many characteristics that I see as being sooooo childish now. This was a 40 year old grown man…acting like a 4 year old. God I wish you could have seen it!! He would cross his arms and wrinkle his brow and stick out his bottom lip and say…NO! I don’t want to!! Just like a child would. I think he never grew up. One girl that he cheated on me with, said he was like a little boy trapped in a grown man’s body. And this girl was all of 19 years old. Why could she figure it out and I couldn’t?!?!?! I may be biased, but I think baby talk definitely has ulterior motives. Well, at least it did for my ex anyway.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 10:44pm
henry says:
My x did the baby talk thing, of course it took me awhile to realize I was his sugarboogerdaddy… Speaking of dogs…today I was working in a clients yard and I heard this woman screaming SIR SIR and running towards me with this black lab on her heels – I said yes? and she asked if I had seen a black lab? I said is that him behind you? she was so embarrassed – i think she was having a stressful day..LOL
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 11:08pm
BlackDeer says:
Thanks for a great perspective Steve. I spent hours in therapy trying to figure this out but with good guidance am finally focusing on my own issues, not his poor sad childhood, terrible mother, etc.
My divorce was final yesterday (YES!!!!!!!), and as we went through the end stages apparently he was doing his best to bring on the pity and guilt in ways that always worked in the past. What he didn’t know is that I don’t see any of his long, dense, transparent, repetitive, manipulative, immature communications at all anymore–just a brief synopsis as is relevant to negotiations.
Funny thing is–he’s quite capable of keeping the conversation going even if I have no involvement at all. And, that was probably true all along.
Now I feel even more free to stop the post-mortem and get on with the next, better, exciting part of my life.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:11am
skylar says:
quest,
Narcissism is a state of emotionally arrested development. Baby talk is a big red flag. My xP told me he never wanted to grow up. He also said other people should take care of him so he could play and not work. He especially did baby talk during sex. Now I find out that he was a pedophile. Put all this together and I realize that he has baby names for his sex organs and the women’s sex organs because that’s how he talks to little kids about it.
So, yeah, baby talk doesn’t go over well with me.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:48am
quest says:
Well people thanks for the input , I guess the creepy thing here is that people on a psychopath victim website would recognise this as a common trait of their X’s . As far as what my friend felt about it , he wasn’t quite sure what to think . Of course now its got me thinking . Anyway back to the topic at hand . Steve ,I like what you have written but for myself what I have to conquer and understand is not so much what the psychopath is or what made them but what is it in me that allowed them to mess with my head . Not only that but now it is almost as if psychopaths can see me way more easily just as I can see them . Its like being in one of those alien invasion movies where the peoples bodies have been taken over by an alien entity and are walking around amongst the general population undetected . I can see them and they can see me , seeing them . Sounds like paranoia I suppose but maybe not . I suppose what amazes me now is that I can recognise them from the way they speak . Its kind of like a 6th sense I have some how aquired . I think I always had it but did not know what I was seeing .
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:50am
heavenbound says:
About the baby talk, the p I was with did that a lot, but not lovingly or sweet or cute or pouting, but like he was talking to someone stupid, or slow,,,must of thought he was talking to himself. Except when he wanted sex, that was suppose to be cute I guess. Being a mom, it killed the mood for me, it just made me think of my boys when they would use baby talk to con me for something (like children do!) Of course, like everything, when I opposed something he was doing, I paid dearly for that.
I think if someone tried to use baby talk with me now, I’d run as fast as I could, whether they deserved it or not, I’d never know because I probably wouldn’t look back.
In connection to the article, I was thinking on the nurturing of my children, I’ve worried about how I have affected my youngest in these last six months. I’ve worried about handling things so as not to cause parent alienation syndrome and after he has been with his dad I notice a difference in him towards me. I worried that I had really messed up and it was showing in his attitude towards me.
I looked up parent alienation symptoms and strategies and all. Well I found we all as parents teeter some in a divorce, there are levels to it. However, I found that the attitudes I get from my son after he has been with his dad are the attitudes a child has towards the parent that is being alienated, NOT the one doing the alienation. It’s not me, it’s him. I don’t want him playing with my sons mind. He needs to know and believe that someone loves him and is happy to have him, this p sure has made it clear no one is going to get love from him. He doesn’t need to take from my child the comfort of knowing I love him and I am here for him away….how dare he!!!
With each new day as the memories work themselves out in my mind and the more knowledge I gain from my research, the madder I get and the more I find myself,,, I’ve let him nearly get away with murder,,,,I’M BACK!!! stronger than ever before. No more games and when he barks at me, forget hiding under the porch, I’ll bite!
Now if I just don’t slip and find myself back in the fetal position.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 6:06am
Donna Andersen says:
Lace,
Welcome to Lovefraud – sorry you had to be here, but glad that the information is helping you.
I don’t know if a sociopath will leave voluntarily, especially if he’s sponging off of you financially. Usually the only time they leave is when they have a new victim lined up.
My guess is that you’ll have to start divorce proceedings and see where that takes you.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 9:25am
Donna Andersen says:
Quest,
My sociopathic ex used to babytalk. He took me for over $250,000.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 9:26am
OxDrover says:
Well, maybe we have discovered another “page” in the “Psychopathic play book” BABY TALK 101″
Babies of all species have several physical things that make humans (in general) think they are cute and adoreable. BIG eyes relative to the size of the face. So when someone is pleading for something, we open our eyes wider (to make them appear more open, bigger, more like a child) We give a child-like smile to enhance this and may assume the same body posture that a todderler would. I thinnk the “baby talk” may be something they have learned as children pleading with an adult for something that they want and it worked so they just never stop using that “PLAY”
My P son would use the pleading talk, pretty close to baby talk when he wanted something from me, if that didn’t work, he used a pity play, and if that didn’t work, he would “get scary” then go back to the pleading of “But Mommmmmm, what would Jeusus do?” Where is the PUKE emoticon when you need it?
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:28am
henry says:
for instance my x would say ” sugabooga I sawwee I hut ew feelwings – but if ew dont forgives me i WILL ROCK YOUR FUCKIN WORLD!!!!!!! yep from pity to scary in the same sentence – damn I am glad he is gone bye bye..
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:47am
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: Yes, I did like that post….so true about the smarts they think they have. Once my x got fired from a job….and he was laughing about how he terrorized the boss and office so badly they all freaked and asked if he had a gun and called the sheriff on him. [after he had already left]. He got a real buzz off it and was ’sharing’ it with me. I looked at him and said: “Did it ever occur to you all they thought was how nuts you are?” He looked at me like I had slapped him….LOL…of course it had not occurred to him!
I used this in court to show his behavior and he still squirmed in his seat at hearing it….bwaaaahahahahaha!
Babytalk: I cannot remember the name of the movie with Katherine Zeta Jones and Julia Roberts where K plays a P actress and she baby talks in it. My X loved baby talk….mostly to him….calling him ‘wittle boy’. I am telling you these P’s don’t grow up emotionally….they are stuck …mine was stuck at about junior high level emotionally.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:29pm
amber says:
Wow!! I’m so glad to learn that this is another characteristic of P/S. Another red flag that I didn’t even realize until now! Ewwww…it makes my skin crawl now. Why did it take me so long to think a grown man talking like a baby was so creepy?!?! LOL. My ex would often pout about getting older. It was his biggest fear. He never wanted to grow up. Even dressed like a teenager. By the end of the relationhip some of his outfits were so questionable. I would even say “aren’t you a little old to be wear those clothes???” He was stuck.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:39pm
OxDrover says:
Some of them definitely have difficulty being “age appropriate” in their thinking and that “teenaged” mind set (whichBTW is partly from not having a fully grown pre-frontal cortex that has the JUDGMENT center matured yet. I wonder if brain scans would show this up in Ps. LOL
In any case I think their emotional “immaturity” and lack of judgment, and ZERO insight (like TB’s X not getting it that he had appeared like a nut case, not a “winner,” as he perceived himself) Being reminded of this also apparently didn’t please him either. glad you were able to use it TB.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 1:47pm
Twice Betrayed says:
“My ex would often pout about getting older. It was his biggest fear. He never wanted to grow up. Even dressed like a teenager.”
Hmmm….amber…..my x’s greatest fear was and is: growing older. Your above comment was exactly him. He dressed/dresses like a teen right down to man jewelry….young t shirts hanging out and his cap on sideways or backwards giving some kinda nutty ‘gang’ or hand signs to the kids that worked under him. Talks teen slang and looks like an absolute nut. They all accept him tho….at least to his face. He ran off four years ago with a 19 old girl and was running in a pack of teenagers that he housed/fed/and God knows what else for/with. After he returned [on the stipulation he get help/meds] he still stayed this way and once again started cheating and running with younger people. He is still this way even after I walked and my daughter by him says his mom said he’s melted in the head and really believes he is young. He even went back to the University here and was running in a pack of teens till he had to go back to work full time and they dumped him from the group. This man is 50 years old!
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 3:35pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Thx, Oxy! Yeah…of all the things I testified about ….his neglect, abuse, cheating. lying, abandonment etc…..the ONLY time he winced was when I brought this out. The rest….he got a power surge from.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 3:44pm
amber says:
TB!! AAAAHHHHHH!!!! It’s soooo scary how they are all the same. My ex had two distinct lives. He had the professional 9-5 corporate job, wife and kids. To that world, he looked perfect. And then he had the music career, which I was a part of. And this was the true him. The alcoholic/druggie, dressed like a teen, hanging out with KIDS, lying cheating, calculated, conning, manipulative piece of shit. He tried so hard to fit in with the younger crowd and dressed younger because he was sooooo afraid that people would know his real age. He was terrified of people knowing anything about him. And he too, cheated on me with a 19 year old girl. And he was 40!!! He knew he could get away with some of it because he didn’t look his age at all. He maybe looked about 30, so if he knew he could lie about his age, then he would. I remember one night being out with him and some drunk guy asked me…what’s his deal anyway?? Isn’t he like 40? Why is he still pretending to be a KID? He’s so washed up!!! LOL! So true. And it’s true what you say..they all accept him to his face, which made his ego even bigger, but I saw the looks people gave him, I heard the comments being made, I knew that they all thought he was ridiculous. He really is a joke. He thinks that ALLLL these people love him, but jokes on him!! His clock is ticking and he knows it, once the music is gone, he’ll have nothing. He has no close friends. I find it ironic. The man who performs for thousands on stage and has this public image of being so “together” and “happy” and “lots of friends and fans”…In reality he doesn’t have a soul in the world that he’s close to or really cares about him. He had surgery on his neck a couple months before we broke up. Do you think one of those people he calls his “friends” came to see him??? Or call to see how he was doing?? Not one. It made him soooo depressed. Pretty sad. He would often tell me that he didn’t want to get old because he knew he was going to be alone. Karma’s a bitch!! I keep praying for the day that he self-destructs!!
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 3:58pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, they have this idea that the world circles around them and that everyone envies them and thinks they are great! They don’t get how crazy it looks of an older person to be pretending their are “young.” they have NO dignity. Accepting that we are 40, 50, 60 etc is part of a normal aging process (and we all DO AGe) but they seem to pretty much have a big problem with this. they think they are the exceptions and they look really HOT dressed and acting like a teenager. People just snicker at them behind their backs.
Well, if you put your “self esteem” on your looks you are going to be pretty bummed out in the end, we all end up looking like yoda if we live long enough. LOL
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 4:34pm
skylar says:
Amber, yep, mine is stuck trying to be a child. He told me he never wanted to grow up. Recently, I called him on that statement and he said, “I said I never wanted to grow OLD, because your body gets sick and your wife leaves you”.
I replied, “no, you said you never wanted to grow UP, and your wife doesn’t have to leave you unless you’re a jerk! like you are.”
It really cements what the book, “WHY IS IT ALWAYS ABOUT YOU?” explains: narcissism is a case of emotionally arrested development. These people have infantile needs and fears. They fear abandonment and they need lost of attention, they are parasitical like infants are. All this wouldn’t be so bad if they were also mentally retarded, but the intellect of an adult and the emotions of a child come together to form EVIL. With power comes responsibility. They have the power of an adult but they have refused the responsibility. They will do as they please and damn the consequences to anyone else.
I never thought that at my age, I would learn how evil childishness is.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 4:35pm
Jen2008 says:
Excellent article Steve!
Although I have known some people thru the years that occasionally used baby talk, (none of them anything remotely close to being a socio or psychopath or cluster B, IMO), I am very happy to say that is the one annoying thing my Ex P did NOT do. He did not use baby talk at all–EVER, thank God. I knew I would eventually find one positive thing I could say about him! lol!
…He tended to cycle like Oxy described her son as doing–pleading, sweet, normal, threatening….and he could go thru all the stages in less than 30 minutes and start over again if none of them seemed to be working. It was almost as if he was like the wind, just randomly tossing out different styles and saying whatever came to his mind and if none worked, fine tuning them a bit and going back thru the cycle and tossing them out again until one seemed to stick and work.
.And Henry, LOVED the dog story!!! Jenn
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 4:59pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Skylar: * high five girl….great post!
Oxy: yoda…bwaaaaaaahahahahaaa!
Amber: you are so right! When it gets down to the nitty gritty….the people they threw away are the only ones that loved them and stood by them. Mine relies on his mommy, sister and now he has a new mommy….a new wife that my daughter says is very maternal….she has two grown sons….so has just added my x to her kids. But….he’s rebelling, of course…what do bad little teen boys do????? But, her boys won’t let him treat her like crap. *It really has me wondering why he always picks females with young sons tho….this is like his eighth one in a year! >>that I even know of.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 5:06pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oh yeah, thought you all might find this adds to this thread. My first X was a P also….and I talked to him this year for the first time in years and years. He wanted to go BACK and marry his high school sweetheart again….which was me. He found out I was single again [and get this-thru my daughter who is by this last P!=they are friends on facebook!! Now don't ask me to make sense of this....as I cannot! The only thing I can think of is: this daughter is getting back at my older daughter[ by this first X] -since she had an affair with my last X who is this younger one’s dad….now did you all get that? Ahahahahaaaaa! I didn’t and I am the mom!!!!! *almost faints from the reality of that sentence] Anyway: this first X still lives close to the university where he partied his life [kids and our marriage]away and still parties like he did when he was younger. He told me he was never going to grow up and if I joined him we could live in the Bob Dylan ‘Forever Young’ world together!!!! * quick…somebody hand him a mirror. This guy looks NOTHING like the young gun I married….oh, i kinda do recognize his legs…..in shorts….and oh, his ears. His beautiful head of hair has made a beeline for his behind and his face has melted downward….ugh! And he whined about it…..even had a bunch of plastic surgery and gym work before he contacted me….and had the nerve to ask me if he still looked the same! He said it so pitifully that in spite of all he’d done to me….I didn’t have the heart to tell him> “uhhhh, hell no!” Finally, after he dumped the arrogant stuff on me…I let him have it full blast….he almost melted down and went whining to my younger daughter like some kid!!! *gasp, is this real??? I went NC and had no problem doing it. Let somebody else work on potty training these ‘baby men’….I’m done! ;P
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 5:24pm
amber says:
TW…GASP!!!! LOL!!! Whoa…you win!!! That’s one hell of a situation!!! But you’re sooo better off without these people in your life. And I know my Ex will look me up someday. He still seems to have contact with a few of his ex’s, and I’m assuming he thinks I’m going to fall into that category too. He even said to me, “we’ll always be friends.” Ummmmm, NO!!! How could I ever be friends with someone who Fed me over so bad. I agree..NC and let someone else potty train them!! HAHAHA!!!
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 7:08pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Amber: LOLOL! You are so right….it is one hell of a situation. After all this time…I still wake up and have to remind myself it was not a bad dream…it’s real. Needless to say…it’s put a reeeeaaaal crimp in the relationship with my adult ‘kids’. But, hey, I am a survivor as we all are here.
Naw, with friends like your x=who needs enemies? ……both my x’s want to be my friends too. Go figure. And…my daughter said I would really like my x’s [her dad] new wife! Makes my head spin and feel surreal.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 9:24pm
lostingrief says:
amber:
the ex spath-hole used to say the same thing to me … ”no matter what, we’ll always be friends; you’ll always be in my life.” i’d tell him, ‘nope, there are definitely limits. like, getting someone else pregnant; or sleeping overnight at some chick’s house.” every line i set, he walked over. NC for 15 months now! i still miss what i thought it was, but wasn’t. oh well. there ain’t no eggshells under my feet no more!
TOWANDA!!!
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 10:42pm
henry says:
Towanda to LostinGrief – My X said “I will always love you” as he was walking out the door to his new address – he showed up a few times after that and I wouldnt answer the door – he knew I was inside – he looked so confused and pissed because I wouldnt open the door – he just wanted to play mind games with me – he liked seeing me upset – made him feel powerful – no contact is where the power is -Towanda on 15 months LIG
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:27pm
lostingrief says:
thanks henry.
yup, mind games. ‘he’ saw me on the street a few weeks ago. came up and tried to put his arms around me from behind. heard his voice. moved my arm up to keep his arms away from me and i went into auto-pilot mode: “i REALLY don’t want anything to do with you!” him: ”i know. i just wanted to say hello,” in little boy voice.
he left me a message: ‘you know, i was SO hurt that you were afraid of me. you never have to fear me. i’d never do anything to hurt you. i hope you’re well. bye, now.”
GRRRRRRR …. as IF! afraid? he KNEW it was disgust and not fear, but he couldn’t let me get away with that, so he twisted it to to get back control. thought for sure i’d call him back. no freakin’ way. jackass!
henry, you’re exactly right. they LOVE to see us upset and to get back power any way possible.
NOT! funny he still remembers my number. the NC must be making him crazy.
slimy lizard loser.
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:48pm
lostingrief says:
but ox,
yoda rules!
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:52pm
henry says:
slimy lizard loser’s – I changed my numbers – people tell me if he really wanted it he could find it, dont know about that..But I didnt want him to call and I didnt want to know if he didnt. LIG sorry that happened to you – you should of kicked him in the balls..
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Friday, 20 November 2009 @ 11:56pm
lostingrief says:
gee, that would have been satisfying, but in retrospect, it was more fun staying calm and in control of the situation. somehow, i just made my statement, kept walking, never turned around to look at him. the only thing i saw was his omnipresent cell phone (‘my bitch locator’) in his hand. overall, it was pretty painless because i still LOATHE him. no forgiveness here. and i’m just fine with that.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 12:06am
alohatraveler says:
Weird… I used to say the Bad Man was like a rabid dog when he was mad… frothing at the mouth.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 2:21am
Jen2008 says:
To Lostingrief,
Although I rarely post anymore, I was an active reader/poster back when you and your ex split and you were in such anguish over it and were still in the “wanting and missing him so much” mode. I just wanted to give you a shout out on how well you are doing! I think you handled the situation in running into him just great. I’m gonna guess your indifferent reaction to his physical contact (I’m thinking he was probably counting on that physical touch of his alone melting your resistance to him and bringing you round to at least talking with him) was something he thought would never really happen. He was probably really surprised you blocked it–not angrily, but just matter of factly. Probably your not thawing really threw him off his game and bothered him or maybe even activated his desire to win, thus he could not just leave it alone and just had to call you….He is reacting to YOU really, not the other way around. This means YOU are in control, NOT him.
And I have to say congrats again cause I just love seeing YOU being the one in control!!! Jenn
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 6:52am
Stayingsane says:
Henry, Steve and all
no contact is where the power is
Henry I totally agree. Steve this post is powerful.
I have bad days where I indulge in the “how could he do it?” till i’m blue in the face. I have to snap my fingers and pull out of it, but nothing intrigues me more than how he walked away with so much of my energy, money, love and trust and left ME behind.
I’m still looking down the road after him thinking…he has to come back or get struck by lightening, but nothing happens
I’m beginning to get it, the power is in not responding and re investing my energy in the here and now…..but one last time with feeling HOW COULD HE DO IT?
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 7:40am
OxDrover says:
Dear Staying sane!
Darling that is the one question we will never get a satisfactory answer to because we can’t truly KNOW how their brain works except that they are the human equvalent of a predator species. We can’t FEEL how they feel, and they can’t FEEL how WE feel. They can’t know what bonding is, they can’t know what love is, and we can’t even imagine what life would be like WITHOUT bonding and love.
How does a child born blind learn what colors look like? How does a child born deaf know what a bird song is? It is the same with them,, they are born somehow or morphed into at a very early age a creature that is missing a critical bonding element that attaches them to others in an empathetic way. They are missing something, but just like the blind child misses colors she isn’t aware of missing what she has never seen. Language can’t explain to her what she is missing even.
You are right Stayingsane, NO CONTACT is where our POWER IS, because we no longer RE-act to them, but ACT for ourselves. TOWANDA GF!!!! You deserve it!!! (((hugs))))
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 11:44am
henry says:
Stayingsane – I understand how he could do it on an intellectual level. He is a text book sociopath. I will never comprehend on a human emotional level how anyone can do it. Surely I am wrong, nobody can be that cold..Oh yes they can and will if we let them…I think if we understood them we would be like them. So sometime’s we have to accept what we dont understand as bad for us and we should walk away and not look back – it will take time – but please know you will be ok.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 2:25pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Well, you know I do understand that these P’s are like this….however, my adult kids that turned out to be a great deal like their fathers were NOT like this as kids. I raised them and they were all three very well behaved, sensitive, giving, loving children. They excelled at school and all loved and respected me greatly. They started changing after they became adults…and I mean out of the teen years. They were all three great teens…no problems but small minor ones. No drugs, alcohol, rebellion etc. Miy last one did not even date steady until she was 19-she spent all her time with her horses. I loved being mom…and now all three are very different people….and I don’t even really know them any more. They are selfish, hard hearted, disrespectful and worldly. I do understand we are genetics but…I do believe there is choice involved.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 3:42pm
OxDrover says:
Dear TB,
I agree that they have CHOICES, they know right from wrong, but they choose to do what they want to do over what is right. some of this can be “trained” into people, and some people have more “genetics” to over come, but in either case, I think it is say like an alcoholic may have more trouble Choosing to not drink alcohol to excess than I would have, BUT they still have a CHOICE to not drink, knowing that they do mean things and stupid unsafe things when they drink.
EVERYONE (adult) with an intellectually functioning brain with enough smarts to tell right from wrong, who is not psychotic and seeing visions or hearing voices can make choices. Can determine their own behavior. A psychopath knows “right” from wrong, but just does NOT care. “I want what I want and I want it NOW, no one else has any rights but me.” seems to be their mind set.
I’m sorry that your kids chose those choices instead of better ones, but we are all “free agents” I think. Genetics may tend to make choises more difficult, but we all have choices even then.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 6:05pm
OxDrover says:
ps, I do think though that you can make decisions and choices and if you go far enough down the wrong road, there is no turning back…like an alcoholic’s drinking can “fry” the brain to where they no longer are ABLE to make choices because their brain has been damaged. I wonder if the Ps do the same thing–their earlier choices influence their brain to not be able to make better ones. I wonder if we, as victims, do the same thing, get locked in to the “defeated” posture where we no longer struggle to break free.
I do know that prey animals when they are caught in the clutches of a big cat, will cease to struggle and “self pacify almost in a state of shock where they don’t apparently feel any pain or fear as they are killed.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 6:08pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: I would agree totally with you. Very good points and very well worded.
And especially that they can go too far. I could feel this in my x’s….they have become a slave to the very things they once manipulated at will.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 6:48pm
lostingrief says:
hey jen:
thanks for the shout-out. i’m doing pretty well considering i gave the spath-hole 25 years of my life and love. the only truly lasting remnants is the 70 lbs i gained since this happened. ugh. but putting myself back together emotionally was priority number one. now that i’m doing pretty well there, i’m starting to tackle the physical manifestations of the damage. with that emotional connection ripped away — the ‘love’, the sex, the affection, the loneliness — food has become a very fulfilling companion. but enough is enough. i look ridiculous.
has anyone else here responded to the sudden dissolution of a relationship with food and weight gain?
anyway, i’m good. NC is good. no drama is good. money is good. truth is good. freedom is good.
but my ass has paid the price!
TOWANDA!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
skylar says:
I think I do PARTIALLY understand how they think and why they can act like they do. You just need to remember how you thought as a child. Remember that you could drift in and out of REALITY when you were a child. Nothing was permanent, so even murder could be a solution to your problem. There were no limits because you couldn’t really conceive of consequences. Even if you think out a plan, you believe you are in control, ominpotent and with magical powers. As a child you don’t really think other people feel all the drama and emotion that YOU feel. YOU are SPECIAL. ONLY YOU have these very potent emotions therefore YOU ARE entitled to any behavior YOU find necessary.
IT’S ALWAYS ABOUT YOU.
Seriously, think back to the way you thought when you were a child. It’s how they think.
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 10:28pm
henry says:
LIG lmao
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Saturday, 21 November 2009 @ 10:32pm
Sarah999 says:
I did obsess for a long time over why my X-son (and x-husband) were N/P/S. I have to accept the fact that they are fundamentally different in every way . . in their bones, in their brain, in their veins, in their spirit.
They come from a place of hate, anger, negativity, aggression . . . why? We could just as easily ask. Why do we come from a place of love, understanding, compassion. IT IS WHAT IT IS! AND CAN’T BE CHANGED
The N/P/S’s have accepted US. They KNOW that to get along with us they must “wear a mask”, and pretend to be kind, charming, generous, positive, keep commitments etc.
Our acceptance of them means. . . We should know (and accept) that they are different, that they are wearing a mask, that they are full of hate and anger, that they will NEVER change, that this is who they are at a fundamental level, and what we see a mask THAT WILL DROP, when they feel it is safe for THEM to drop it (i.e., they have us)
IMHO . . ACCEPTING them means knowing they are what they are, they will never change, they cannot change . . and we must RUN FOR THE HILLS TO SAVE OURSELVES
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:18am
witsend says:
Skylar,
I am reading a book that you might find interesting reading as well.
It is called : When a stranger calls you mom.
It isn’t necessarily about the S/P/N personality. More about the damaged child inside, from children of neglect and trama situations and what foster or adoptive familys are up against when trying to raise/love them.
It is written by a doctor and also a mother of adopted children from neglectful/tramatized backgrounds.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:48am
skylar says:
Hi Witsend,
thanks for the book recommendation. I’ll put it on my list.
I have a book on hold at the library ready to pick up: “Why does he do that? Inside the minds of angry and controlling men” by lundy bancroft.
The author is considered an expert, I haven’t read this or any of his other books but he was recommended by another N-supply.
The book you recommended might be helpful for me in my own quest to grow up and stand up for myself. I’m so pathetic.
Update me on you situation with the counselor that you met last week. Any chance your son will go see her? I just hate to think about giving up on him because he is so young. It makes me sad to think that there can’t be a “fix” for him. But I do understand the disorder and how all encompassing it is.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 12:24pm
Sarah999 says:
Also . . . . It seems very ironic to me, that one of the hallmarks of the N/P/S person is the need to control OTHER people.
When in fact, the one thing they are hopelessly BAD at controlling is THEMSELVES . . i.e., their rages, anger, aggression, & pathological lying.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 12:45pm
Sarah999 says:
It almost seems . . since they can’t control THEMSELVES . . . they are going to control OTHERS.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 12:46pm
Isabell says:
Witsend,
I’m very interested in your book, and the findings. I wish ther were a way that I could connect with you more directly regarding your book.
In any of your studies have you interviewed the adult/children of such neglet and traumitization? I’m curious.
Isabell
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 12:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear isabell,
There is a book review on here somewhere I think about “If you had controlling parents”—if not you can find it reviewed on Amazon. It is quite a good book and I have read it. therea re several books on that subject, and controlling parents are one “set up’ for being controlled by Ps as well. Parents who do not value a child’s feelings and thoughts (that doesn’t mean that they allow bad behavior or are not teaching the child good behavior) but that they tell the child the child has no “right” to their feelings of anger etc. set a child up to be controlled as an adult, I think.
I used to tell my kids when they were little, “You can be mad at me for not letting you do XYZ, but you can’t kick me in the shins because you are angry.” When I had been growing up I was told that my FEELINGS were bad. That I had no right to my own feelings because my feelings were “wrong.”
There are many “self help” books out there to help us recognize and change the things about ourselves that put us at risk for being vulnerable to dysfunctional and unhealthy relationships. One book may be helpful to you, and another to me because none of us come from identical back grounds or have exactly the same needs. There are quite a few good ones reviewed here on LF.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 2:19pm
witsend says:
Isabell,
This book is about “childrens perspective” from the research and “hands on” findings (by adopting 4 troubled foster children herself). Written by a woman who has a doctorite in developmental psycology and is an expert in child development and parent-child relationships.
Even with her back ground when she adopted these troubled children she had found that she was totally out of her LEAGUE when trying to raise them.
So she tried to find what research had been done and found that it wasn’t enough and did some new research on her own. since then she has shared her experience in this book from working with thousands (!!) of adoptive and foster families, social workers etc.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 5:21pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Hello sweet LF posters!
I’ve been reading this message and most of the responses, and I noticed something that my lover continues to do, and that is to continually ask “how could she do this to me?” and expects to figure it out.
Usually, I let him vent, and then remind him that he is trying to apply logic, the actions and reactions of a person with normal thought processes, values and character to a person who has NONE of the positive qualities that normal people have.
I believe it’s very difficult for those who have not experienced this first hand either to have been a victim, or in my case, to love a victim, to understand that S or Ps may have the ABILITY to make the right choices, but they have no DESIRE to do so. Their evil nature takes over each and every time, and it’s a chilling thing to experience. I read a post on here in the archives about being “soul raped” and that’s the most apt description I’ve ever read. Every part of a victim’s soul has been violated by these animals. My lover is having such a hard time healing, and I know there is nothing I can do for him except be supportive and remind him that he is a good and caring person who did not deserve to be “soul raped” no matter what his shortcomings were within the relationship.
Normal relationships do not include lies, manipulation, cheating, fraud, theft and denial; his periods of not being attentive enough to her or giving her everything she ever wanted did not cause her to do this to him. Those are problems that many couples have and work through, and normal people do not retaliate with sociopathic behavior.
Sometimes he hears me, but sometimes, he doesn’t. It’s an extremely difficult situation.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 6:07pm
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
It is difficult for people who come here as “newbies” to ‘get it” that the answers of “why did s/he do this to me”? are just “because that is what they do” but that IS the answer that we have to ultimately accept. It isnt’ about him logically accepting ‘why,” but emotionally accepting it.
It takes a great deal of time (months, years) to accept this on an emotional level and to heal the trauma that they leave behind in their wake.
I again strongly suggest that you get your friend/lover to come here and read himself, to learn these things himself. It really isn’t anything that you can ‘teach” him, it is something we have to seek out for ourselves and ingest for ourselves.
He is obviously still hurting from the relationshp and the damage it did to his self esteem. And, frankly, trying to find a “new love” (a good love) to make up for the damage done by the previous bad one isn’t a good way to “heal”—a new relationshp with another person takes ENERGY that we need for healing ourselves. Focusing on ourselves rather than on another relationship. I know you said you are falling in love with this man, but my point is, very bluntly, very few people are “suitable” for a new relationship until the old wounds have been healed…otherwise the old wounds just scar over with the “infection” healed inside like a boil or abscess. Until that prior “infection” is cleansed and healed, there isn’t room for a healthy relationship.
You are right, healthy normal relationships doon’t contain those lies, manipulating, cheating, and fraud…but I suspect he is so wounded he isn’t yet ready for any relationship. I think he needs to get his healing done FIRST. I know that leaves YOU in a “waiting” game, but I think in the end, you will have a better relationship with him than you possibly could have with a wounded soul. healing is something we have to do pretty much in an internal vaccuum if that makes any sense.
But I do think that if there is to be a good relationship with this man you can be his friend, be supportive and encourage him to heal at his own pace and own time. Then you will still be there when “the time is right.”
Good luck, and glad you are here! He does need a supportive friend.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 8:08pm
luv716 says:
My s called me wed. and told me I still love you and care about you I know you don’t think I do! Than guess what I haven’t heard from him since. I’m now beginning to think this man is really crazy! All the things he done to me suppose to be forgotten, better yet he act as though they nothing has never happen. I have been so mess-up since the phone calll. I text him you got the nerve to call me tell me you love and than nothing! His response I do love I love you more than anything. Ok the end all to this mess I haven’t seen this man since July, he dont call me to even talk to me. How can he use love words an send me right back to the beginning of my hurt. God I love him because love don’t end over night but the pain is tearing me apart because he playing games with my heart!
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 9:01pm
Stargazer says:
Dear luv716,
This is the time you need to use the “mute” button. Don’t listen to the words; LOOK AT HIS BEHAVIORS! Sociopaths cannot tell the truth, they just say whatever is convenient to control someone. Look at his popping in and disappearing as the indicator of his true intentions. He may as well have said, “I just saw a pink elephant.” It is equally a lie. The only difference is he is trying to control you. Don’t fall for it. Mine used to leave me voice mails every day pouring out his feelings for me, all the while living with his wife and lying about it. They have no scruples.
Can you change your phone number so he doesn’t call? Or at very least, don’t respond. Stirring up your emotions is exactly what he wants. It’s part of their game.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 9:49pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Luv,
Darling, every time you let him communicate with you, it tears your heart out! Star is right! Hit the MUTE BUTTON. NC NC NC NC!!!! Take control of yourself, he doesn’t love you, love doesn’t treat people that way, only psychopaths who ENJOY making you hurt!
Why else would he call and say those things and then ignore you? Just so he can know he still has control of your heart and can make you jump like a puppet! Look how powerful that makes him feel!!@!!
TAKE BACK YOUR POWER!!! You can do it! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:22pm
lostingrief says:
anybody out there?
can’t sleep. thinking about him and the why’s and wondering:
when he used to cry … deep sobbing cries … when his dad died, when he was frustrated about a dilemma at work … was it real? if there is no feeling, what was he crying about? it was heart-wrenching and seemed authentic. anyone else have spaths who actually seemed to feel so deeply? i’m feeling confused.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:52pm
henry says:
lost I am always here – my x cried when his grandmother died – she raised him – she disowned him when he came out to her – but he was truly upset and it was bad because i had kicked him out just before that – he came to me crying and I bought him a airplane ticked to go to the funeral and when he was there he called me with these big sobs saying how he had been thinking alot about me and he wanted to get back together and make it work – he cried more than anyone i ever knew = these huge sobs and tears – but i think it was fear based – nithing to do with true emotions – yep i still think about how i wanted to take him in my arms and comfort him all the time – if he just hadnt been a lying cheat we mite still be together – sorry u r down tonite – so much of my experience with mike was intense – drama – end of the world tears – god he was good at it – its part of their disorder – fear fear fear -
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:14am
henry says:
those tears got him the ticket to go to the funeral – those tear kept him in my life 3 long years – those tears got him alot of things – but the one time i cried in front of him he was disgusted by it
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:19am
lostingrief says:
woooahhh. yah, he hated it when i cried too. used to call me a ‘crybaby.’
fear-based! brilliant. or … feeling as though they’re being found out.
thanks. i gotta try and sleep.
you’re a sweetheart.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:36am
Iwonder says:
Hi LIG,
Yep, late night for me too. My ex-S used to turn on the tears too…like when he was out of work and needed money, “you don’t know what it’s like not to have money to take your kid out, etc., etc.” Made me open my wallet everytime. And like your ex, he didn’t give a crap if i cried.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:50am
henry says:
what do little kids do when they want something real bad?
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 1:30am
OxDrover says:
Oh, yes, the old “tears ploy”—psychopathic play book, page 49, paragraph 2.
USE OF TEARS
When confronting the victim who has caught you at a lie or inconsistency, turn on the tears and present yourself as a heart broken victim of someone else’s abuse, or some great heart breaking loss.
Turn on the tears, sob and cry, appear emotionally injured.
This tactic can also be used with great effectiveness when you are in the “you don’t love me if you don’t buy me X” routine.
This is an essential part of the PITY PLOY.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 10:35am
lostingrief says:
yikes. all the ‘they have no feelings’ talk made me forget all about the agregious manipulation! thanks everyone. really tough night last night. i have to stop watching hip-hop dancers and listening to R&B. makes me miss him every time. damn, i loathe him!
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 4:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LIG,
Repeat after me: “They are the LIEs, and the truth is not in them” Recite that 500 times and say 5 five Hail Marys and you will be forgiven for “forgetting”—Yea, it is easy to “forget” sometimes, and MUSIC seems to ahve the ability to touch our hearts and emotions and make us remember the “good feelings” we had when we were with them—no matter how few and far between those good feelings were.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 4:40pm
Spirit40 says:
Hi to LIG… reading your post above… for me its called emotional eating, happy, sad, angry… I eat.. not sure I think its the stress hormones also cortisol? yeah I was just telling myself , no scratch that my clothes were telling me that hey we dont have enough room in here somethings gotta give… I wont buy anything new so I need to start walking, yoga etc.. I know what I need to do its just doing it ! thats hard .. I have not touched the mint choclate chip.. last time it was worth 3 lbs… so its only a form of self abuse .. like my procrastination…Good luck! we can do it , we know how its just when we are ready ..
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 6:41pm
lostingrief says:
ox: just finished the penance … took me a while to remember the ‘hail mary!’ no music for me for a while. problem: the good times far outweighted the bad. he didn’t show ‘that’ side of himself to me until the last year. but the bad was pretty BAD!
spirit: i won’t buy anything either. whose body IS this anyway? we CAN do it.
TOWANDA~!
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 8:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LIG,
“Go ye and sin no more!” LOL Well, you know saying “the good times outweighed the bad” is sort of like saying “Other than that, mrs. Lincoln, HOW WAS THE PLAY?”
You know, it dosen’t take too many “bad” days to ruin a while life time of “good” days when it comes to abuse and that sort of thing.
Dear spirit, maybe we should start a Love Fraud Fat Farm! I’ll join!
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 9:21pm
Sarasims says:
Great article…..I’ve known for some time that there was no hope but like that stunned deer, just couldn’t move, couldn’t breath. I know his childhood was horrible, but I just wonder what it was that pushed him to be the way he is.
If I came across a serial killer, I would be terrified and there would be no question as to whether I would even speak to him. But this SP is really not much a frame of mind different and I gave him all of my love. How can we miss that??
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 9:30pm
henry says:
Oxy I will drink five bloody marys and repeat after me.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 9:46pm
OxDrover says:
Dear henry,
My problem is I want 5 Root beer floats! LOL How as your trip out of town?
Picked about a peck of green ter-maters today in anticipation of the frost killing them, found out that goats love ter-mater vines so they got a treat!
Sara, your question about “how can we miss that?” is one I’m not sure we can ever truly answer. How can we love “charlie Manson” The BTK killer, Ted Bundy? How can we love someone who would do horrible things? To others or to us?
I guess the closest we will come is an ADDICTION….they are so “sweet” and good at first, and hook us in.
My egg donor screamed after she was betrayed by my X- DIL and the Trojan Horse psychopath “BUT THEY WERE SO RESPECTFUL TO ME”
I told her, well, what did you expect, that they would say at first? “Look you old witch, give me your money cause I despise you.” LOL Of course “YOU GET MORE BEES WITH HONEY THAN VINEGAR” and the Ps figure this out, you START out nice and then become abusive, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND! DUH! doesn’t take a genius to figure out that one!
But at some point, I think that love does die—a slow death by strangulation. Once I figured out that I didn’ thave to keep on doing CPR on that “love” and just give it a “death with dignity” it made it a lot easier. NC is stopping the CPR!
You’re doing fine, Sara, just hang on and keep on putting one fooot in front of the other. (((hugs))))
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 11:29pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Great points Steve!
Everyone should also be aware that therapists may try to advocate for a sociopath, encouraging family members to stick by him/her.
They do this because sociopaths do “better” when everyone else picks up after their messes. Better means less contact with criminal justice system, fewer mental health services, better job performance. Better does not mean they become loving contributing team players.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 6:33am
Spirit40 says:
Oxy, LIG…. morning all… the LF fat farm maybe a good idea… I think we are not as fat as we imagine(remember the sunscreen song) its a good cheer up song… by Laz someone….luv it .. but getting healthier is like a full time job. Now I am not only moving but I just got a new job…yippie but one more thing to add to the stress, in a good way I guess….well on Dr Leedoms post above… I am tired of cleanning up the mess, I am the one who has to pack and move into a smaller place. While he is in a “program”, I have the dog (not Mine) not even ours, but I always take care of him…I always used to say we work better as a team before I knew he was an S’, but it never lasted more than a day or couple hours at a time…hmmmmm its funny looking back now… I was 17 when I met him, turned out I knew then, the first card I wrote to him I remember saying I hope this isnt a “con”…. LOL oh YOUTH … I need to listen to myself I am right …..
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 7:05am
amyc says:
Thank you…thank you…I don’t comment very often at the site here. I come and read quite a bit and always go away with a renewed feeling of strength.
The subject of this thread has hit the nail on the head for me. It has been my downfall in my relationships…why is he that way and what can i do to heal him, surely my love….well…you’all know the rest. I am finally…finally…coming to grips with the notion that I…loving and nurturing woman that i am…I can NOT heal them. period. It is hard to give up on the belief…however the alternative has about killed me several times over and survival has finally come to be my mantra.
Thank you again to everyone here who shares…It is a lifeline.
peace and love to all
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 7:36am
tami says:
Steve and others, another great article. I appreciate the hard work that everyone puts into writing the articles but I want everyone to know that I find the posts in response to these article every bit as helpful.
What I continue to struggle with is although my ex-S’s behavior and personality appears in nearly every article and post I read here on LF is WHY do I keep coming back to LF to seek confirmation that he is INDEED a S? I KNOW THIS and HAVE KNOWN this for nearly 3 years now. He displays the classic behavior of the non-violent S. And, here again the posters got off topic and began a discussion regarding “baby talk” that was even MORE validating! However, can someone please tell me WHY I slip back into doubting my own judgement from time to time? Am I the ONLY one who does this once you’ve realized what these people are? It’s like I just can’t get enough proof and then I ask myself…WHY do I feel that I NEED proof? Is it because he has everyone else deceived? Is it because I fear that those that I inform of what he is are thinking that I’m the crazy one? WHAT is IT?
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 7:37am
Questionman says:
Great information. I’m interested in any insights into a S who had three concurrent wives while employed by Child Protective Services in a southern state.
There appears to be some sort of entitlement these people feel to subvert the bounds of social restraints. I am not in a position to get away from this person since we are locked in litigation and his attorneys appear to have the same traits.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 8:09am
witsend says:
tami,
I think there are many reasons why confirmation is needed over and over again.
The past experience with the S/P/N involves so many contradictions. Their words and their actions are not even on the same “page”.
The lies, smoke screens, projection of their behavior onto us, but most of all their canny ability to distort our OWN reality…….All of this leaves us wondering if WE really saw, what we saw. Expierienced what we experienced. It really IS mind boggling.
It really in the end is a MAJOR mind game that they play with us and so it is no wonder after being manipulated like this that it is very difficult to sort it out.
Add to this that very often when we turn to our friends/family and we try to inform them of what is going on in our lives with the S/P/N….They can not understand. Because it does SOUND crazy….That is part of the crazy making they bring into the relationship.
This all leads us to doubt ourselves…..
Thank goodness for LF.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 8:45am
stormee says:
Steve,
YOU ROCK!!!! Love your articles!
Over the past year and a half I managed to be just like that deer you described caught in the headlights, who so very gradually stepped out from in front of the horror and fascination of those headlights, and life is so much better here on the other side! I’m so done with wondering what made my (twisted and perverse) ex-S tick, whether he ever was sincere in anything he did or said, what caused his issues etc. etc.
Wish you all peace in your healing….
God Bless….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 10:04am
Wini says:
Hi LFs, just thought I’d offer this wisdom from His Bible.
The Lord has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. (Proverbs 16:4)
O Lord, how great are Your works! Your thoughts are very deep. A senseless man does not know, nor does a fool understand this. When the wicked spring up like grass, and when all the workers of iniquity flourish, it is that they may be destroyed forever. (Psalm 92:5-7; see also Romans 9:11-22)
Jesus said,
If you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matthew 6:15)
And whenever you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive him, that your Father in heaven may also forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses. (Mark 11:25-26)
If you do not forgive, you are not forgiven, and you prove yourself as one who does not love God; and you’ll go to hell if you die in such a state (Matthew 18:23-35; Isaiah 66:24; Revelation 21:8).
Jesus said,
He who does not love Me does not keep My words. (John 14:24).
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 10:23am
walnutgo says:
This is such a GREAT article. The comparison to the rabid dog just hits home…..thank you for the clarity. This is great!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 11:01am
stormee says:
Hi Wini,
awesome choice of scriptures … thanks (as always) for your wisdom and spirutuality…
God Bless…
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 12:15pm
recovering says:
Steve, like others have said here, thank you for a very timely article. It validates that I am on track in no longer being concerned about trying to understand. Like someone else said, acceptance and indifference have become keys to freedom and greater peace of mind.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
Stargazer says:
Excellent article. I went through a short period where I wanted to learn as much as I could about sociopaths. I read a few books and read dozens of articles here. However, the process of going through therapy is turning my focus inward. I feel healing can only start when we stop obsessing about the other person and focus on ourselves. This is the only way to innoculate ourselves against bad people, moving forward. It’s a long, painful process for some, but there’s really no way around it.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 12:44pm
sherry winter says:
I have to agree. This was one of the best articles I’ve read on LF. I see the logic in many of them, but can’t always use the advice as I of course feel my situation is different. I suppose we all feel alone, even when we have common threads in our lives, and our ex-s/p.
My biggest issue right now, is the possibility of being locked in a cage with my rabid dog. I do NOT love that dog, and realize that I never did, because he really was ALWAYS rabid! Even though I’ve given up my association with all the mutual friends we had, at great grief to me, I can not run from that dog gone bad. At least not now…
I haven’t seen him in almost a year, and I do go over and over and over why I became his victim when I had so much to lose. But like you said, it doesn’t matter any more what I lost, or why I lost it.
It does still matter to me what I might still lose because of him though! I’ve been working in a temporary position for the last year, and as the year finishes off, I may end up having to go back to the office where we both worked, and where he used his position to take advantage of me.
I’ve been trying to get a job somewhere else for several years, but the job market stinks. I’m hopeful that HR will see the danger involved in us being in the same office, and find me a different position permanently. Him being the classic s/p could work all day and treat me like I wasn’t there. However he will not quit his MO in his favorite hunting ground, WORK, and if he continued like he has for years and years, I would have to say something about it, even if no one wanted to hear.
Of course every one says, “let others find out for themselves.” No one tells you thank you for warning them about a rabid dog that has trotted up to be patted, but they sure will be sorry when it bites them.
THEN THE QUESTION: Could you watch a dog you knew to be rabid, fallow someone and stay silent? Even if the dog was wagging its tail? Even if you didn’t know the person? Would you still say….BEWARE OF THAT DOG, IT BITES AND HAS RABIES? Or would you be silent and say… NOT MY PROBLEM?
Now ask yourself if that person was someone you liked? How about if that person was blind and couldn’t see. Would you warn them even knowing they would get mad at you for chasing the dog off when they liked petting it?
Now if you mentally put yourself in an office where the people are split in half. Half where really enjoying petting the dog, and you spoiled it for them, and the other half had been bitten by the rabid dog, and are mad at you for being a know it all.
Welcome to my world if I have to go back to that office. If I go back, and it causes too much disturbance it will be ME they are trying to fire, and not him. If I get fired, I will have to take him and the office to court in my own defense. If I go to court, I probably have less then a 50/50 chance the judge will have a clue, let alone will agree that it is a chargeable crime.
I’m not sure I believe in god any more, after learning about the universe the hard way, through the eyes of my s/p, but if YOU do, you might pray that I get a different job before the next 5 weeks is up!
Still, all in all, I totally FINALLY know, he is and always was a rabid dog. However, it’s hard to run from him, or the consequences he will have on others, when you are locked in a cage with him.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 4:00pm
Alaskasnowbird says:
The man I married, and subsequently learned was not the man I married, *materialized* after a 3-year absence (abandoned our marriage) living in FL with his mistress (and she has documentation that he is a married man and seems not to care or believe it — she apparently believes his lies even in the face of the red flags/documentation), now the legal fun begins.
What I fear, is that due to his *charm and charisma*, he will con wealthy people out of their money with his schmoozing and his considerable knowledge of building and repairing computers, networking capabilities — especially fearful of his access to proprietary information and computer hard drive *replacements* (questionable repairs).
Wealthy yachtees live in Fort Lauderdale, etc. and he behaves as a wannabe gigolo. I feel like I need to warn people because he can worm his way into people’s personal lives. I am fearful he will take advantage of senior citizens or other unwitting victims.
How do I process these thoughts? He did this to me, my family and friends. How do I let it go when I know of his underhandedness and con jobs?
I did wonder (obsess) many times about what caused him to become the person he is today. In the end, it doesn’t matter to me anymore.
He was like a flash in the pan. Breezes into people’s lives, makes a mess and disappears when he’s found out.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 4:08pm
eaglemom says:
This was a very good anaogy. My daughter has been involved with a sociopath for three years and has now married him. To complicate this matter, she is BPD and becomes whomever she is around the most. So now she has some of his characteristics. To add to the mix, she is now pregnant.
I understand the overwhelming need to know why he is this way and in my case why my daughter is this way. After three years I understand which is helpful to me. However, my daughter does not yet understand. I frankly am headed for the hills on this one. There’s nothing to be done until (if) she comes to her knees on this one.
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 5:05pm
OxDrover says:
Dear sherry and Snowbird,
Unfortunately, many potential victims do not believe a warning, and having been both a warn-er and a warn-ee, I can see it from both sides. I did not listen to warnings about people I was doing business with—to my regret! I also warned others who did not listen, to THEIR regret! So I have seen both sides of that coin, and lost both ways—heads I lost, tails everyone lost except the P.
However, I do not feel guilty when I do not warn, and I ido not expect positive results when I do warn. So each person I think must make their own decisions based on each circumstance and so on. Sometimes, in trying to warn, we end up getting our own heads chopped off and no good comes from it in any manner. I guess you just “pays yer money, and takes yer chances.”
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 5:27pm
tami says:
As many of you on LF know, I have tried repeatedly to warn my ex-S’s new wife about him and he left me for HER! I knew her before h targeted her and broke her marriage of 13 years up. I have never held any hard feelings towards her. I had been married to him for 8 years and all the warnings that people had tried to give me when I first met him had slowly started to become realities over the time I spent with him. So, I KNOW what he did to her and WHY he did it.
From the outset, I told her exactly what she could expect from him…cheating, lying, total dependency upon her for financial support because he would not work, etc. She thought I was crazy. That’s been nearly 3 years ago and EVERY single thing I warned her that he would do, he has done. However, I did not expect that she would end up contracting 2 incurable STDs from him! I’m clean of those…thank God! She has told me many, many times now that she wishes she had of heeded my warnings. However, she continues to believe his promises of changing for her and his sugary words are music to her ears.
All I can say is that we are no match for these monsters! I don’t know HOW they manage to do it but they possess the power to convince their victims that black is white and white is black.
The latest thing she has done is asked me to spy on him for her since I no longer work and she does. Of course, he doesn’t work and she knows that he has all day long to roam. He calls her on her job literally every few minutes to report his whereabouts…always at home…however he is calling from a cell…so she REALLY has NO idea where he is. As much as I’d love to play P.I., I refused her request and told her that it wasn’t because I feared him and that I’d love to be the one that exposed him through pics, etc. However, I told her that I really didn’t feel that she’d believe it if she saw it with her own two eyes because he’d find some way to convince her that what she was seeing really wan’t what it appeared to be. So, therefore, I will NOT waste my time! She’ll see it one day for herself and hopefully before the discard. It’s time that someone discarded HIM!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 5:01am
tami says:
Sorry for all the typos in my last post…should have proofed it more closely!
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 5:04am
Matt says:
tami:
Asking the ex-wife to play PI to keep tabs on the husband for he current wife….my God, biddy really has gone ’round the bend, hasn’t she? That she would even make that request of you floors me. Cut her loose, for your own sanity as well as her’s.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:05am
duped says:
Yeah, I did the warning thing and felt better that I had. And when things broke down and they broke up, I felt like I may have played a small part in someone’s better future.
However, in the end, he was able to give me far more credit than I deserved. To the point of blaming me for the relationship’s demise.
The fact of the matter is, getting involved at all gives the P power and control. Their skill at taking partial truths and turning them into completely usable lies is something a healthy person just can’t fathom let alone truly contend with.
Staying away is a strong message to someone willing to hear it. And if the next victim can’t hear it, they’re not ready to hear the truth directly.
Namaste
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:16am
Sarah999 says:
There’s a very short summary of N/P/S’s . . .called “A Primer on Evil”, by T. I thought it was useful . . because it was so direct. If anyone is interested, it on Amazon.com.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:22am
Rosa says:
Tami:
Biddy wants you to play Private Eye for her??
That’s priceless. I think I’ve heard everything now.
Then, if you get caught doing this PI thing, you can be the one who looks like the crazy ex-wife stalking your ex-husband.
These triangle-type of situations can come back and really bite you in the ass, even if you are the innocent one.
Be very careful, Tami.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:38am
Matt says:
Rosa:
As I recall it, biddy has already blamed Tami when cornered by her husband. This is after biddy is the one who has reached out to Tami. The statement biddy made way back when of “our marriage would be fine if [Tami] would just stop interfering” makes such sense now. Biddy turns around and blames Tami, the person she reaches out to for help. No good deed goes unpunished in this case.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 11:43am
OxDrover says:
This whole thing is the “triangle” game right out of “Games People Play” (Dr. Eric Berne) Biddy is a DRAMA queen, not a victim. It is unfortunate but NOT uncommon for a dysfunctional person to pair up with an abuser and it is the PERFECT MATCH because the pseudo-victim gets their “reward” by being able to keep the DRAMA going.
This is NOT “blame the victmi” bit—because there IS NO TRUE VICTIM, only the appearance of one. I know that most of us here went back and went back, were addicted, etc. but there is ALSO another group that are PSEUDO-VICTIMS, and in fact, they are also abusers as well.
To not recognize this fact, leaves us open to being used and abused by those PSEUDO-ABUSERS. I have fallen into that trap myself (once just a few months ago) but I think the KEY TO RECOGNIZING THIS TYPE OF ABUSER, the “Pseudo-victim” that they they keep reaching out for “help” and then REJECT THE HELP offered, or even get MAD at or BLAME the person offering the help.
WE on the other hand tend to be “enablers” and trying to “save the world” and “save the poor victim”—well, folks, these people are NOT victims in the normal sense but they alternate between being victim, being abuser and seeking rescue. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY.
BACK AWAY FROM THESE PEOPLE, they use the PITY PLOY JUST LIKE THE PSYCHOPATHS DO.
How many of you know Ps who used the “I’m just a poor victim of my (choose one: war experiences, abusive childhood, my x wives, etc etc) and you FELL For it, you felt pity for these people and tried to “help” and “fix” them.
Well, I am seeing that BIDDY is such such a one. That is why she has the GALL to ask Tami to be a PI for her. MORE DRAMA. And there is NO doubt in my mind that if Tami falls for this (I think she won’t) that Biddy would turn on Tami like a striking snake.
Tami, this woman need to be OUT OF YOUR LIFE—TOTAL NC. Just MHO.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:07pm
skylar says:
Gotta agree with Oxy,
You have a dual P problem, Tami.
Biddy may not be as bad as the xP but she is infantile and only thinking of herself, not considering you or the consequences to you. I’d put her age level at around 13.
You are a kind and compassionate person and Biddy knows it, so she’s working that angle. Start weaning her off of your compassion by responding with a more ascerbic tone.
Tell her that there is some evidence of the xP’s sociopathic behavior and Biddy already has it: HER STD’S!. Then tell her you don’t feel like looking at it.
Stay consistent about the way you respond and the emotions you give her. Drama queens are emotional vampires too.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
OxDrover says:
Tami,
trying to “wean” an emotional vampire (and that is a great title, there’s a book by that name–check thebook review threads here for a review) is like trying to “wean” a P—I have a drama queen in my life, and I let her stay on the EDGE of it because I dearly love her husband, but I no longer play her games. She is the ONLY exception to my “no drama” rule. I don;’t let her irritate me any more, because I know what she is, and when she starts her “complaining” (usually about her treatment by her husband) I shut her up! with “I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT THAT.”
I avoid her phone calls as much as I can (just do not answer or call back) and keep conversations limited in time—”OOPS, gotta go, there’s someone at the door!”—and focused on something besides how someone has mistreated her and other such gossip.
Though my sons and I do dearly love her husband (who is in very poor health and it is difficult to impossible to visit with him wihtout seeing her—either here or at their house) when the irritation of her presence becomes more irritating than the reward of visiting with him is rewarding, it may be time to step out entirely.
The thing I think you need to ask yourself, TAMI, is “what am I getting out of this drama?”
It is obvious you are not able to save Biddy because she does NOT want to be saved (contrary to what she is saying) and the thing is LOOK AT HER ACTIONS, how do they match up with what she SAYS? Not very well I expect.
That to me is the PRIME RED FLAG WAVING BRIGHTLY saying “this woman is a drama queen” because she says one thing and does the opposite. She refuses to listen to good advice, allows herself to stay in a bad situation and seems to want to PROVOKE MORE DRAMA and to hook Tami in as her “rescuer.”
I think most REAL victims (and that includes Tami and myself as well as the others here at LF) may hang on with the addiction and so on, and we tend to BE RESCUERS, to want to help the “downtrodden” but the bottom line is that each victim must RESCUE THEMSELVES.
I can’t rescue you, you can’t rescue me. All the evidence in the world won’t make you (or me) SEE what we don’t want to see, what we are willingly BLIND TO. Biddy is putting on a BIG PITY PARTY and that to me speaks of FAKE VICTIM, just like the psychopaths present themselves as “Victims” in order to work the pity ploy.
So ask yourself, Tami, what is being accomplished here by you having contact with this woman, other than it keeps you “in the loop” on what is happening with your X and vindicates to yoruself that you were and are RIGHT? He is a psychopath! But me thinks that she is definitely DYSFUNCTIONAL and sees no gain in stopping that drama. It keeps her life exciting and “interesting.”
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 1:18pm
mandelhof says:
@ Steve: very well written and so true
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 9:50pm
Isabell says:
Sorry for this late post response to something that was written many posts ago…
But, BABY TALK? Aughhh…. I’d cringe.
His mother still talks to her boys with it. They are 50 years old. It freaked me out.
He’d try to use baby talk to get me “interested.” All it did was TURN ME OFF!!!!!!!
I don’t like it when kids continue to talk like babies past the developmental age when normal speach patterns are expected. (though it is adorable on babies)
Baby talk is blatenly manipulative. Period.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:52am
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
I’m with ya….
OH, let mamma get you a babba wit some warm milky for my baaaabbyyyyyy.
EESshhh!
The S used to have this ‘language’ he referred to a SHLADDLES. It was like an ‘alter ego’…..he OUT OF THE BLUE started speaking in shladdles talk when I was a teen…..at the time I laughed and laughed….it caught me off guard…..You had to hear it…..and mostly SEE him do it.
I laughed because he looked like a retard, with his mouth wide oopen, tongue stuck out like a KISS band dude and talking or squelching loudly whatever he would say….barely understandable……
The most ironic thing was…..when we had kids….something triggered me to ask him to do ’scladdles’ for the kids……HE REFUSED! Our children NEVER got to see their father do schladdles……
That spoke volumes of his maturity level…..and manipulations of me
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 4:11am
tami says:
Yes, Biddy has the maturity level of a middle schooler. However, I don’t really think she’s into drama so much. I DO think that she likes attention but not necessarily from me. I’ve concluded that she has never really listened to me because I honestly don’t think that she cares. I don’t think she plans on being with him for the rest of her life so she’s not concerned with him. Is she, too, a sociopath? The thought has crossed my mind several times. She basks in receiving attention from men. Tells me all the time how this one or that tells her how beautiful she is and how they’ve openly offered to take her off my ex-S’s hands if he doesn’t treat her better. Yeah, right! She openly flirts with other men in an attempt to make him jealous and then accepts his jealous reaction as love. Maybe this IS drama…to me…it’s immaturity, attention seeking and a downright dangerous game! I’m sick of it…she’s probably doing the same things he is and spreading STDs all along the way!
This baby talk discussion is really interesting. I brought this up in a thread over two years ago when I first joined LF. I didn’t get much of a response back then but of course, we’ve gained a lot of new members since then. My ex S and his mother used to baby talk each other on the phone! I was appauled the first time I witnessed this. I have a son and a stepson that I raised so this REALLY seemed strange to me. My son was spoiled rotten but gave up baby talk when he was no longer a baby. My ex S also used to baby talk me all the time. It was a total turn off. I think most women want their men to be a bit macho in a positive sense. Sweet talk is nice sometimes but baby talk is a whole other story entirely! I certainly didn’t want a goo-goo-ga-ga man! It was like he would revert back to a small child!
This leads me to another language thing that stands out in my mind: Anytime my ex s would answer the phone or place a call, I could immediately tell by his tone whether there was a man or a woman on the other end of the line. If it was a woman (maybe even my own mother), his tone would be somewhere in between normal and baby talk–like honey pouring from his lips. If it was a man, he would literally deepen his natural voice! Anyone ever witness that kind of behavior?
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 6:05am
tami says:
Oh yeah, now I’m responding to my own posts! Yes, the triangle thing is enough to drive one nuts! Yes, at first my man mission was to expose this man for the sociopath that he is. Yes, I have done that. EVERTHING I predicted that he would do, he has done. And, the STDs popped up later and that would have certainly been enough proof to send any normal person on their merry way. I’ve honestly concluded that they are using each other.
And, the spying thing? I have a strong gut feeling about that one, too. She now has a facebook page that he knows nothing about. She befriended me and stupid me accepted her request. This has been several months back. On myspace, where he also has a page…she makes all kinds of lovey dovey “going home to snuggle with my baby” status remarks. On Facebook, she is a totally different person. I also noticed that she and her ex husband are friends on FB but NOT on Myspace although he is an active member there, too. I think she has her own thing going on with her ex or possibly even another man. I suspect that she wants to leave the S. He’s told her that he’d kill her or himself if she ever does. I’m thinking that she wants ME to catch him and provide her with an excuse to leave him. She missed her opportunity to leave him when she caught him cheating and promised to stand by him NO MATTER WHAT and then married the idiot! I think she now wants out and wants to make sure she can blame him for her leaving. That’s the way her mind works. I’ll have no part in it. She thought she had stolen my prize possession and I now have concluded that she deserved the “prize” she got! I served my time with him for 8 years and she deserves to do even more time with him due to her own stubborn ignorance! She has realized that she has a very sick man on her hands but she’s too insecure to leave the marriage without having a back-up MAN instead of a back-up PLAN! Sounds very familiar…doesn’t it?
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 6:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
Yea, sounds to me like your X S ALSO GOT WHAT HE DESERVED! Maybe they deserve each other would be a more complete way of putting it.
I realize you tryed to “warn her” in good faith. She is playing a Drama Triangle game, and yes, that is what 13 year old girls do, about 7th grade they are sooooo into “drama”—-and some of them get stuck there and stay there for the rest of their lives.
There is a google ad tht flashes across the top of my screen sometimes on LF “who is calling your man? Click here and find out her name, address and background”
DRAMA RAMA. Got to find out who she is and make her leave my man alone! Protect my turf.
Nah, if she can take him, she can have him.
I think you are right, I think she may be planning a back up, but WHATEVER she is planning, I think you don’t need to be part of the CAST OF THAT PLAY. You did your best to give her warning, and she has taken advantage of your PITY and COMPASSION to recurit you for her drama triangle production, so if it is any consulation to you, your P picked a dysfunctional pseudo-victim who may be as manipulative as he is. Or as my Parrot says, “OHHHHHHH, WELLLLLLLLL” Wonder where the parrot learned that phrase. LOL
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 10:31am
tami says:
Ox drover and others,
You know, this may sound nuts but when I found out that it was she that he was leaving me for, the first words out of my mouth to him was “I think you may have met your match”. This was BEFORE I had ANY idea that he was a sociopath and my own statement didn’t even make sense to me at the time. Once he insisted just a few days after he left that I communicate all the divorce info and such to HER, I was angry and felt like striking out at both of them! Then, it was like a calming voice said to me “their punishment will be each other”. LOL! KARMA! There’s good and there’s bad!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 10:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
It is OLD wisdom that if he will cheat on his wife with YOU, he will eventually cheat on YOU. She knowingly also CHEATED ON YOU so we know where her moral compass points don’t we. Yes, THEY DESERVE EACH OTHER….I’m just sorry that you were sucked into the DRAMA RAMA by her pretending to be a VICTIM when in fact, she is NO VICTIM at all, they are CO-ABUSERS.
Unfortunately, these CO-ABUSERS posing as “victims” give real victims a BAD NAME of “asking for it” and so on.
Now that does not mean that a real victim may not out of pain “strike back” at the abuser once in a while, but it is NOT A LIFE PATTERN, and my bet is that Biddy’s LIFE PATTERN is filled with DRAMA and CHEATING and ABUSE/ABUSING as well just like your X and her present “husband.”
Distancing ourselves from these people who are continually producing “drama” and not really searching for healing is one thing that I think it is IMPORTANT, VERY IMPORTANT, for us to learn.
I think some of the tip offs are that when we feel ilke we are trying to “save someone from themselves” there is a good chance they may not be a true victim, but instead a co-abuser.
I think another tip off is “have they been a cheater in the past? Or multiple times?”
Are they trying to get PITY from us, to suck us into feeling sorry for their SELF MADE PLIGHT?
Do they actually show any signs of DOING anything constructive for themselves to fix the situation? Or is this all just talk?
Do they continue to stick their hands in the fire and then cry because they get burned again?
Do they lie to or do underhanded things to their partner? Then validate the rightness of this because “he also lies?” (not doing self protective things, but drama producing things)
It doesn’t matter WHICK “chair” is our favorite “chair” in the DRAMA RAMA, whether we prefer the victim chair, the abuser chair or the rescuer chair, AS LONG AS WE SIT IN ANY OF THE CHAIRS, OR PLAY THT GAME, WE ARE INVOLVED IN THE DRAMA RAMA.
Setting boundaries with people who try to suck us into that “game” is the only way to stay out of the game. That means we cannot ATTEMPT to “rescue” someone, under the guise of “helping” them. That is a fine line between giving someone an opportunity to HELP THEMSELVES, and trying to RESCUE them by doing for them what they should be doing for themselves. That is definitely what MY OWN DOWNFALL WAS, and I still struggle with it daily. I guess I will all my life.
My adopted son D’s bio sister called him the other night and one of their family members is dying, he had not gone out of state to see this woman as he has no real relationship with her, and in fact, doesn’t even like the woman, but his sister called him and chewed him for “not being there for the family” He actually hung up on her for this blast. I could see that it was very disturbing to him though to be yelled at by his bio-sister. He doesn’t “do” being yelled at well at all, because of incidents when he was very young in which he remembers violent verbal outbursts with furniture flying around the room.
I realize his sister is a) very young, 19, and b) this is the first death in her extended family and she doesn’t really know how to handle and cope with it. To her it is a very emotional event.
He finally drove up to the state where the lady is on her death bed (he had planned to just go up for the funeral) and most likely will stay there until the funeral is over, just to support his sister if nothing else.
I actually was glad that he hung up on his sister, though, as that is something he would NEVER have done previously. He would never have set the boundary of “you can’t talk to me like that” by hanging up with a family member or anyone he loved.
It probably would have been better if he had been able to verbalize to her, “suzie, I do not appreciate you speaking to me like that. Let’s talk when you are calmer” and THEN have hung up the phone, but we make “progress” in steps, and just him refusing to sit still for her tongue lashing and accusations is a BIG step forward so it is progress.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 11:46am
witsend says:
Tami,
I believe one of the biggest indicators that biddy herself has shown that she isn’t ready or even WILLING to get help in her situation is that she came here on LF for a short period and never came back.
Yes, it would be possible to come here to soon and not be “ready” to hear the truth. However she also chose not to come back.
You, all along might be telling her the exact same things the posters here on LF have told her. However she can always “justify” to herself that you have “ulterior motive” for saying what you are saying to her. Even though of course you are trying to point out the TRUTH to her, and have NO motive for doing this. (other than HER best interest) She can still CHOOSE to believe what she wants to believe.
When she post here and everyone tells her the same things you do she can’t justify that we have anything “invested” in her beloved man. And so she can’t deal with that and backs off. She can’t make the same excuses that she does when she talks to you (in her mind)
So actually you would almost be doing her a favor by backing off completely. Tell her to post here if she needs some one to talk to. If she is really ready for “help” she will come back.
As much as you might continue to point out the TRUTH to her and as much as her reality is the TRUTH…She isn’t accepting this truth from you.
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 12:12pm
skylar says:
Tami,
it’s very interesting that you “knew” that Biddy and your xP were a “match” before you really knew anything. My subconscience also tends to “see” things years before I can acknowledge them as part of my reality. The way I know that my subconscience has seen something is because, like you, I will SAY what my subconscience is seeing and not know WHY I said it.
Just months after meeting my P, I told people that he was a serial killer. LOL. I thought I was joking. But now I realize that I was saying what was actually going through my mind, I just couldn’t really face it. I used the word serial killer because I didn’t know the word sociopath at age 18. I just knew that he was extremely dangerous, even though he was as sweet as honey and always protective of me. I don’t know how I could tell. When I was reading “People of the Lie” I knew that I had to hide the book and read when he wasn’t around, even though I didn’t believe that the book was about him at all!
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 3:06pm
tami says:
Skylar, you went where I dare not to go! I have the same thing going on with my subsconscience. I sense things before they happen or have a very strong sense of intuition or SOMETHING. My ex S actually believes that I am a witch because I was able to tell him things that he had done during the day when he was away from me. I’d tell him certain breeds of dogs that he’d interacted with and even know when he’d flirted with a woman. He’d give me that “deer in headlights” look. However, I certainly didn’t SEE what he REALLY was or I’d of been gone. But, like you, I seem to know things…maybe it comes from life experiences or witnessing the experiences of others. Who knows?
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Thursday, 26 November 2009 @ 5:29pm
tami says:
Witsend and others,
Concerning Biddy. Yes, I have come to believe the she does not want help because she doesn’t need it! I think she doubts herself from time to time but that she now fully realizes that he really isn’t going to change…not even for her! I think that for a long time that she was in denial and under his spell. I think he had her convinced that I, and every other woman he’d ever known, wanted him back. So, she felt she was in constant competition. I do believe that she has finally realized that I certainly don’t want him. For one thing, I’m remarried to a wonderful man who I love with all my heart as he does me.
I had always been fortunate enough to have a comfortable life before I met the S and married him. During the 8 years that I was married to him, I slipped totally backward…and nearly lost everything I’d worked for. My family grew more and more concerned as they watched me struggle and dance to keep the bills paid and make him happy. They were also alarmed by the fact that they were seeing less and less of me. THIS is now Biddy’s life!
Since marrying my new husband, I resigned from my job of 27 years to help him with the paperwork for his business which takes all of 15 minutes a day. I went from driving a 1996 Toyota Camry (great car, btw, stil going strong) to driving a beautiful BMW. We have a Harley, boat, my husband is also pilot so we fly here and there and I take a lot of air shots with my camera, etc. My husband and I also spend a lot of time with our families and traveling about to experience new things together that are of interest to BOTH of us. I love taking pics and capture these moments with my camera. The S has isolated her from her family and she misses them terribly. My husband and I are far from wealthy but we’re comfortable because we’re both very ambitious hard workers and we are VERY frugal! If we want something, we SAVE until we have the money to buy it at the best deal we can find! Through pictures on my Facebook page, she can see that my life has improved 300% since divorcing the S who is now her husband. She also sees that I’m back to living the life I lived before getting hooked up the S and it is very similar to the 13 year life that she lived with the husband she left for my ex S after having only a 3 weeks affair with him! The S certainly knows how to rush people into making rash and bad decisions!
However, I’m beginning to see a very different side of her. She tells me how she hates his trashy friends, feels nasty after she’s had sex with him, sees him as a fat old man who is losing his boyish charm, complains about his constant phone calls and attention needs, and uses some pretty bad names to describe him! Things a loving wife would never say about her husband. She complains that he will not work and that she can’t afford to miss a minute of work even when she’s seriously ill. She’s young and fashion means a lot to her. She complains that she can’t afford her fav brand of designer jeans anymore. She says that EVERYTHING has to be about him and that she’s tired of it. And, every other day she reports a new argument that they’ve had the evening before. She also talks about crying all the way home on her love drive in from work every evening because she doesn’t want to go home and deal with him. She says she feels trapped.
I honestly feel that she did not hear a thing I tried to tell her before because she now comes to me for validation of the very same things that I tried to tell her. It’s like she’s waking up. She seems to use me as her own personal LF and says that she feels that I’m the only one who understands what she’d dealing with because she knows that I have first hand experience. I have encouraged Biddy to come back to LF but she cannot afford internet access at home and is only able to get online for short periods of time from her workplace. In the past, I have copied and sent her articles from LF for her to read. I feel that for a long time she experienced a lot of mixed feelings about our communication. Sometimes, I think she felt the need to defend him, other times I think she felt that I was telling her these things to get her to leave him so that I could have a chance at winning him back. Think about it, the extent of what a S is capable of is a bit overwhelming and difficult to believe! I’m sure she must have felt that I HAD to be exaggerating my own experience with him. Well, now she’s been involved with him long enough that she’s experiencing these these things for herself. I stopped offering information a long time ago because I was beginning to sound like a broken record.
I have followed the earlier advice offered by LF readers of suggesting that she focus on her own happiness and figure out what SHE’S going to do to achieve it with or without the S. I’ve told her that I can’t wave a magic wand and fix her life…only she can do that. I no longer bash his behavior…really no need to…she’s doing all the bashing now. As I stated in an earlier post, I believe that she’s working on doing that right now…not the best escape plan in my opinion…but I think she is involved with another man. I just hope that he is a normal man! I sincerely hope that it is her ex-husband. He’s always wanted her back and he’s a good hard working boy. He also knows the history of my ex S from the people in the community. He feels that he targeted HIS wife and chose her for a victim so forgiving her is easy because he blames him totally. Her family loves her ex-husband and detest the very sight of the S and have never accepted him and never will!
So, I’ve resigned myself to pretty much being a listener and suggesting that she figure out what she’s going to do to address her problems. I threw out the “run, Forrest, run” approach and am allowing her to follow her own gut instincts.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 5:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
What “normal” woman would leave a marriage of 13 years after 3 WEEJKS of an affair with a married man? COME ON, what is “normal” or “smart” or even reasonable about that choice of BIDDY’s?
All her crfying to you is just I think DRAMA for her. She goes from one bad situation to another, leaps before she looks then cries cause she jumped out of teh frying pan into the fire.
Yea, she will find herself another BF before she leaves your X for the next “winner” (NOT!!!) If she isn’t a DRAMA queen, please describe to me the one who IS?
So SANE person would jump ship into another relationship like that if she wasn’t a drama queen. Three weeks for goodness sakes. BTW if he will cheat on his wife, he will cheat on you, and she was cheating on her husband, so she will cheat on the P–I think they DESERVE each other, they are BOTH disordered and she loves the PITY just like ALL Ps.
My “diagnosis” is that Biddy is a pity playing Psychopath.
I’m glad that you jgot away from him and I suggest that for your own sake you ought to get the hell away from HER as well. You can’t save her against her will. It is like trying to teach a pig to sing, it frustrates you and pisses off the pig.
OXY’S CRYSTAL BALL HERE: She will find another man to “save” her from the P—because drama queens can’t stand to be alone, or to quit one relationship until they have another one in the wings. they move from one to the next in a series of BAD DECISOINS and then cry about how they are “adused” they give real victims a bad name because then others think we are also “CO=abusers” when in fact we are not co-abusers but enablers taking care of others when we should be taking care of ourselves.
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Friday, 27 November 2009 @ 1:40pm
freshlyduped says:
Thanks for your article on the rabid dog Steve. Hi everyone. I have been freshly duped. My story seems so trivial compared to everyone else’s as I was only involved with and discovered this sociopath for 3 months but my feelings are like those who’ve been involved and married to one for years. I think perhaps I was naive and too trusting…and fell for a pathological liar who was an intelligent, textbook sociopath. While I feel great I was able to recognize the red flags, I grieve still and feel as if I had a brush with the devil. I feel so violated and deceived. It is such a dichotomy for me b/c at the same time, I still miss him however I realize it is the pre-rabid dog whom I miss. This is by far the most traumatizing experience I’ve ever had in the handful of relationships I’ve been in in my life.
So here is the story. I work in a reputable hospital in the transplant surgery department. This sociopath is a transplant surgeon whom I met in April this year. We started seeing each other in August so it was a slow “getting to know you as friends process”. He lied from day one and wooed me with all the right charm, intelligence, wit, and quiet confidence that I was so shocked to see in a physician. I’ve worked with doctors/surgeons for over 10 years (I am a health professional who works closely with surgeons, sorry need to protect my privacy) and the majority are arrogant, promiscuous, and sheltered b/c they spend so much time at the hospital it is nearly impossible to have the healthy relationship I am looking for. Two months of getting close to him – spending all his available nights together and sharing w/each other – I find out through a friend he is married with 3 kids. I confront him to which he makes up this story that he lives with 2 government officials who have his phone tapped b/c he has been chosen as a government informant/mole to follow this acclaimed guru liver transplant surgeon at my hospital for fraud. THIS IS TRUE. I have to maintain a level of privacy here but it has been all over the news for the past five to ten years, this head transplant surgeon who has been performing liver transplants to the Japanese mafia and many other “cash patients” at the expense of many people who are on the list with less money. The usual wait time to get a liver is 2 years and many have died b/c they were passed on by the “mafia” who have more money to offer. I have probably given it away b/c it was on the news a few weeks ago.
Please don’t think I’m crazy (why would i believe such a thing?) but we had hours of conversation on why I can never tell anyone that he is a spy on this head surgeon. He is in a 2 year contract as that’s how long his fellowship is and he is not to tell a single soul nor is he allowed to date (because this would reveal who he is). His first year he was fine b/c he never met anyone, then his second year he met me. Well they did a background search on me and he knew that I was raised by my grandparents before I even told him. He said he had a script to follow, that being married made him look safe and not a threat to the head surgeon so that he (the head surg) would confide in him things that the government can use to bring him down in the future- which will happen in a few years (which in all honesty is probably true). I even asked him the 2 government officials names – Mike and James, one is overweight who loves Dunkin Donuts. They live with him in his apartment in the second bedroom. In exchange for being a mole, he gets free rent. I asked him, all this for free rent? Is it really worth it?? To which he replied – I guess it was naivete. If I had known, I would not do this. If I had a choice to get out now, I would do it.
He reasoned everything which sort of made sense – why he never called and texted (phone is tapped), why he always left the phone downstairs when we were upstairs (at my house). He even showed proof of his tax W2 filings to show that he was single (he changed it from married as I found out later you can do that in the computer system we use). In the subsequent few weeks to follow, we had conversation after conversation about why I felt the trust was violated. I asked him a gazillion times to look me in the eye and tell me was not married, never been married, and has no kids. He even pinky promised me. He wanted to start over, start anew and do it right, etc. Don’t get me wrong, we had I thought a normal “getting to know each other” period – we talked about our past relationships, our childhood, growing up, our futures. We shared our goals for a family (?!!) and what kind of wife he wanted, etc. We laughed and got close over time and became so comfortable around each other he told me he almost wanted to say that “he loved me after a few months but hesitated b/c how could he feel this way towards someone so soon?” The clincher – he was always hesitant with being intimate with me so of course I was thinking, what possibly could he be using me for b/c it wasn’t physical! Later he confronted that he couldn’t be intimate b/c he hadn’t told me everything about his life (about him being a government informant) and soon after that, our sex life improved, albeit slowly, as I always had to initiate. But in the end he was a very generous lover so it was definitely a very gradual thing that I didn’t question. (I have since gotten a full STD check and pray to God I am clean – even tho he says he does not have anything.) I mostly believed him b/c he spent all his free time with me – 2-3 nights a week. How could one do this if he had 3 kids and a wife? Wouldn’t the phone ring when he spent his ENTIRE weekend off with me? I later learned that sociopaths don’t really love their children. He is so far removed from his wife and kids it is scary. I learned that his motive to be with me was b/c I made him “feel alive” with love, support, and acceptance – things that he wasn’t getting from his wife. He loved that he could talk about his work with me and I understood. He loved my warmth and continuous support for his career. He loved my personality and the humor and color that I added to his life. yes, very sociopathic indeed b/c it is always about THEM and what they are getting out of it. He gave me just enough to keep me interested and into him. He was affectionate and loving without too much flattery – he was slick. The right amount to not look suspicious.
So he mixed truth with untruth to get me to believe he was not married w/3 kids. Yes, this story sounds crazy and I admit I am ashamed to have believed him for 2.5 weeks – but not without hesitation. I started my background searches which brought up his wife’s name. One thing lead to another and I saw pictures of his wife and kids. That was the end of it. This guy was a professional actor as I’ve ever seen one. He lied and made up imaginary stories that rolled off his tongue with such smoothness. I read that book by Martha Stout – “The sociopath next door” and was able to see all his tactics and he used every single one of them – pity ploy, the cold stoic stare, silence when confronted, lie after lie, crocodile tears, etc. He even went as far as to say that a girl in college whom he loved died in a car crash and he hasn’t been able to love since (this man is 35). Just to get my sympathy and to get me to feel sorry for him and that he knew “he needed to see a therapist” to deal with this inability to let his guard down — in addition to his parents divorcing right after the death (who knows if this is true). I never went to his house (he said he only told me one lie – that his mom lived with him but this was a diversion so I would never ask to come over since our ‘relationship’ was still new and early). In truth, he lived with his wife and 3 kids. The only inconsistency he has with the usual characteristics of being a sociopath is that he doesn’t jump from job to job and has been married for 10 years…not sure how to explain this. Perhaps he is a focused sociopath. He is obviously an intelligent one.
Even after I confronted him w/the evidence, his cold silent stare said it all. I started crying hysterically (I DO NOT believe in infidelity and I am not the kind of woman to be the “other woman” nor will I ever be with a married man much less w/children). All the while, he kept saying, “no, it’s not what it looks like. I just didn’t want to lose you b/c I knew if I told you from the get go, you would not have wanted to be with me.” ???!! This sociopath thinks he did no wrong. At that point, I knew he was mentally ill. I told his lies are pathological and scary. He continued his lies. “his marriage has been dead for 3 years but they opted to just be separated for the sake of the kids. She’s brainwashed the girls. I feel like a stranger when I go home to my kids. She says she is ready for divorce whenever “I am ready to lose the kids”. They live together now so the kids can see him b/c if the wife took them, he would never see them (b/c of his on call operating schedule). I’m thinking – you never see your kids anyways as it is b/c you’re always at my house! There may be some truth b/c he pretty much lives at the hospital. Even when he is done, he stays at the hospital. But whatever – his failed 10 year marriage is not my business. He even succeeded in making me feel sorry for him – “oh I feel like I am a failure…I failed my wife, I did wrong to my kids, I failed you, etc. I know God is going to punish me b/c I know in the end I will be by myself and that is something I will have to live with.” I DID feel pity for him. I couldn’t believe how he was able to turn it around.
It has been only been one week since the confrontation and I have lost my mind. I’ve never experienced something so ghastly in my life. I’ve never been conned by such evilness. I have been on the internet reading about pathological liars which lead to antisocial personality d/o and eventually to sociopaths/psychopaths. This blog is a godsend. I also checked out the Martha Stout book almost IMMEDIATELY and learned everything I could about sociopaths. I fully understand the rabid dog. I have cut contact with him entirely. He tried to stalk me at the hospital yesterday, waiting for me in the cafeteria patio (I saw him and took a different route) then proceeded to walk past where I work and eventually coming to me and asking to talk just one last time. I shook my head (I was in the company of my co-workers) and just put my hand up as if to shut him out and walked away. I read that once sociopaths realize they can’t win or manipulate anymore, they leave and won’t bother you. I hope that is true b/c the first few days I thought I was in danger.
I never had closure b/c I know that you can’t reason with someone who does not have a conscience, someone who feels no remorse, guilt, or shame for what he did, and especially someone who cannot love or have any kind of emotional attachment with human beings. He does not think he did anything wrong. I could illustrate and prove all his lies to him and he would just have more lies to explain the ones he already told me. He would spin his web of lies to reel me in emotionally. I don’t want that. I am glad that this was only a 3 month experience. I read everyone’s posts on here and I CANNOT imagine the pain many of you feel in your years of being w/ sociopaths. I don’t know what else he has done to take advantage of me. He was cheap but we never got close enough for him to ask me to borrow money (surgeons don’t make much in their training years so i mostly paid for everything which is probably a red flag in and of itself). I also learned that I was more trusting b/c he was in a position of authority. He is a good surgeon, well respected at the hospital, truly cares for his patients (a very good act he puts on), and has a bright future ahead of him (he will finish in 7 months). Everyone loves him at the hospital; boy does he have everyone fooled. Oh yes, he also lied and said he want to Harvard Medical School. I checked the alumni white pages and his name doesn’t come up. Why does he feel the need to make himself look so great? Isn’t getting into medical school good enough and going through a 7 year surgery residency good enough he has to inflate his image even more by saying he went to Harvard?? If I didn’t work with him at the hospital I would even doubt he is a transplant surgeon.
It feels good to write this out to you although I feel like an idiot. I have ceased crying now but am incredibly SAD that something has ended. I don’t know what to do with these feelings I have for someone who was a fake. I feel as though my inner being has been destroyed. I know I will get better in time but it can’t come fast enough. I read in Kathleen Hawks healing series, which I am embarrassed to admit – am I too trusting, too naive, too altruistic, too dumb to not have known earlier? Why did I believe the government mole story? I was already in too deep then. I stayed for another 2.5 weeks in denial while doing my own background checks. Do i have a dishonest streak that makes me susceptible to him? I was so happy I found someone whom I thought I connected with and knew of a possible future with. Was it greed that I knew he was going to be successful in the very near future? These thoughts cross my mind. Of course he egged them on, he talked about wanting me in his life in the long run and a possible engagement. Would I move if his job landed elsewhere? Even after the confrontation, he said that he had started divorce papers already and can’t wait to get out in 7 months. I was someone who has all the qualities he is looking for in a person he would want to remarry; he hasn’t felt this way since he got married. blah blah blah. Now I know it is all lies. He robbed my soul but I wonder what else his motive was? Just to see if I was weak and vulnerable and would fall for his manipulation and need to dominate? just for fun?
I am wondering how I can get rid of these feelings I have for a sociopath. I know in time they will die but there is no logic for me to reason it in my own head. I actually miss him and I miss the good times. I still wonder what he is doing. Every minute I wonder if he is going to walk by or if I’m going to cross paths with him at work or if I’m going to get a text from him. I know better than to contact him but am I the sick one now? Please feel free to comment.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:26am
tami says:
Witsend,
I can’t say that I can fairly judge her as being “normal” or “abnormal” or not because she left her husband so quickly. My ex S, like all other S’s, has a way of moving people quickly without giving them time to think. She was barely 30 years old at the time and I’m sure he flattered her by saying things to her that she hadn’t heard from anyone in a very long time. It’s almost like he has some kind of freaky powers that allows him to lead people where they would normally dare not go. He did pretty much the same thing to me as well as the woman he had an affair with awhile back. All three of us, admit that he had no problem at all in persuading us to do things that were totally out of character for us. I certainly KNOW that he had that affect on me! It’s scary to know that there are people living amongst us like him! I admit, that all three of us were in vulnerable positions at the time but I really don’t think the average/normal man could have accomplished what he did. The nearest thing I can compare it with is being hypnotized! It’s like losing all sense of rationale…I honestly think this man could convince a woman to jump off a cliff and make her believe that she would survive the fall. He’s too GOOD at what he does and that makes him LETHAL. The other girl and I were much older than Biddy when we had the unfortunate experience of meeting him. We feel like total idiots and should have known better. We’d both been played, abused and misused before and thought we could easily detect these things in people. We felt that Biddy’s youth and lack of experience got in her way. I have not been in contact with her since I told her that I would not play Madam P.I. for her.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:48am
ErinBrock says:
Freshlyduped~
Wow…..what a scumbag!
Yep….there out there……
I am very proud of how far you have come in such a short time to protect yourself and become aware!
Please don’t be hard on yourself. This is part of the destruction! If it wasn’t you, it would be me or ‘her’….and you better believe, you were NOT the one and only, there will be a line to ‘capture’ the heart of the fast talking surgeon.
Sick…..sick….sick!
It’s NOT personal…..IT”S NOT YOU!
In time and reading and realizing…..you will come to realize this…..you are miles ahead by your proactive reactions to your gut. You sought answers and you sure found them…..I THROW KUDOS YOUR WAY!
I’m sorry you were connned……you are trusting, loving and he preyed on you. Thats it!
You are on the journey to recovering you! You have taken back control over YOU.
Remain strong, keep reading and welcome to LF……there is a lot of info here to aid in your seeking…….
The sociopath next door was a chilling read……and I think should be required for everyone……we have so much respect for persons of authority or educated people that we just give benefit of doubt too easily…..
If I said I went to Yale….Who ever asks for a diploma? Privacy laws protect from researching with the school……
It’s just crazy…..
But…..your doing the right things…..you owe him NOTHING….say nothing….NC will help you in ways you can’t tell.
Good luck and welcome again.
XOO
EB
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 2:41am
tami says:
Freshlyduped, I totally agree with everything that ErinBrock just said. And, as far as missing him? I don’t know how I managed to do it but as soon as I accepted that he was not REAL and nothing that ever happened between us, conversations, vacations, holidays, etc. weren’t real, either. I had absolutely NO desire to ever lay eyes upon him again. I even realized that there was absolutely NOTHING I could say to him about what he did to me that would do any good because he was a sociopath and letting him know that I felt ANYTHING, even anger, towards him would only bring him pleasure. He couldn’t feel my pain. The only pain they can feel is physical and I certainly wasn’t going to challenge him to a boxing match! When you realize there is absolutely NOTHING to miss then you’ll be grateful that you missed sacrificing another second of you life for this worthless piece of crap!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 2:54am
witsend says:
Tami,
I think your above post-reply was maybe meant for Oxy as it is in regards to what her last post was to you.
I would just like to say that I’m proud of you that you can “step back” from the triangle and really give this some thought as to the unhealthy situation biddy has continued to involve you in.
LORD knows biddy DOES need help in her situation. But I don’t think that anyone can help her with advice or ideas or even support until she is ready to “recieve” it. Even being a “listening ear” at this point is almost enabeling her to stay in this situation.
BECAUSE mostly he has DONE this to her. By telling HER she is the “special one”, unlike all the other women before her.
She is kind of stuck in the middle. You, have all along predicted to her what he is capable of. This actually became HER reality, because of course he is doing all of the predictable behaviors. (not working, abusive, isolating her, lying, etc)
However he is at the other end distorting what is REAL and filling her head with “stuff” and likely devaluing anything you might be trying to tell her.
For the time being he has got her right where he wants her.
And you being his ex wife, no matter what you do you probably can’t be of any more help to her at this time. Because as much as her REALITY is so bad he has STILL managed to create that slim thread of hope in her that SHE is the ONE, and you are the “bad” guy. NOT HIM.
Although there is no shread of truth to this, and she might complain to you ENDLESSLY of what he has done to her…..She is STILL believing (under his spell) what she wants to BELIEVE, rather than what is REAL. That is what is keeping her there.
He has done a real number on her. And until she is ready to “see the light” she won’t.
And that is just giving her benifit of the doubt…..The other could very well be that she will “use” another man to get out of this situation just as Oxy predicted.
I am giving her the benifit of doubt because she was married before she dumped her husband to go for your husband. And he sounds as if he still cared for her (her x). So I have to assume if he still cared for her maybe she wasn’t of p/s/n behavior.
Regardless of all of that…..You can’t change how she thinks. He has alot more influence on that right now than you can. And maybe she really does need to move to the next “stage”, whatever that might be for her. It is very possible that by removing yourself from the triangle she might be put in the position to MOVE into the next stage.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 12:19pm
justabouthealed says:
Agree, put your time and energy where your POWER is. Your POWER is in the ability to make a great life for YOU. YOU are the only person you can really change. Concentrate on where your power is. You’ve done all you can. Let it go. Release the outcome.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 12:29pm
tami says:
Since I can’t keep up with who I am responding back to, I’m just going to write! Yes, I’m out of the triangle but you have underestimated my S a tinsy bit. I tell ya, the boy is good…damn good! He’s NEVER said an oath word against me…tells Biddy that I am a wonderful woman and I treated him better than any woman ever had. He tells HER that he’s SO sorry for treating me the way he did. He told her that once I cleaned him and bought him new clothes, etc. that other women started to notice him and he enjoyed the attention and he lost total control of himself! He said that he felt that I deserved someone so much better in my life than him so he started looking for another woman “worth” leaving me for and he finally found her. LOL! He didn’t treat me a bit worse or better than he has any other woman including herself! She knows this especially now that he’s done as much and maybe more damage to her. NOW, he has her convinced that she is the SPECIAL one because she stayed with him after he cheated on her multiple times and then gave her the STDs. He says he’ll never do her wrong again because her staying is proof of her love to him! Like I said, the guy is a piece of work! And, all those years, I honestly thought he was a dumb old mountain boy! LOL!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:09pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami, I see your point that she may have been “duped” by this guy’s lies, BUT—again, she cheated on her husband, she is trying to keep the DRAMA TRIANGLE going and to me that says that ALL IS NOT RIGHT WITH HER—something is wrong, and with her seeming to like the drama triangle games It speaks to me that SHE has as many problems as him, if NOT the same problems–I.E psychopathy.
I THINK YOU ARE VERY WISE TO DISTANCE YOURSELF FROM HER. If she is into the drama and co-abuse, then she will hang herself with the “rope” you have given her, in any case, YOU ARE OUT OF THE TRIANGLE completely, and that is GOOD FOR YOU! (((hugs)))
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:17pm
witsend says:
Tami,
I think all that it proves is that he is really TRIES to be a smooth operator. OBVIOUSLY instead of degrading you he is saying nothing but good about you. No matter how you look at it EVERYTHING he says is to MANIPULATE biddy. By saying nothing but “good” things about you that STILL makes her feel bad. Now on top of everything else he has projected onto her she has to try and be a “BETTER” wife than you were to him!
And as smooth as he might TRY to be I have NEVER in my LIFE heard such a BIG LOAD of crap such as:
He had to find another woman “worth” leaving YOU FOR because you deserved so much better.
That is the biggest and boldest red flag!!!! She should have ran for the hills right then and there.
It just shows you how she is UNABLE see the forest for the trees. Because there is NOTHING smooth at all in that line.
If she can believe THAT she can believe anything. And that is what he has done to her. Nothing you can do or say is going to change that.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:29pm
witsend says:
Tami,
That is after all what an S/P/N does best. Takes an absolutely unbelievable LIE and spins it so that it is believable to the person he is delivering it to.
Someday (hopefully) she will look back at this and wonder (as we all do) how she could have been drawn into his web.
There is often huge “warning” in what the S/P/N tell us. But at the time it goes right over our heads. That is the mystery of this disorder…..How they manage to do what they do.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 1:40pm
freshlyduped says:
Hi Tami
It makes sense what you said. If I look at it as everything being a lie, even down to the little trivial conversations we had, I can start throwing away the memories. How can I hang onto something that is false? I can’t tell what is true and what is untrue.
I read somewhere that if you expose them, they will disappear and quiet down from your life. Is that true? Does that mean all I have to say is “you are a sociopath” and he’ll get it? Then he can’t smirk and know that he has been playing me like a fool for the past few months b/c he has been revealed?
I know I can’t show any hint of anger b/c he doesn’t deserve to feel ANY pleasure from me any longer. I just can’t believe he took advantage of me emotionally, all for his pleasure and gain. Did he feel anything at all? Is he not the least bit sad that he know longer has my company? I guess I’m just not fully grasping the whole concept of being a sociopath.
EB, thanks for your kind words and encouragement. I really am sooo lucky I snapped out of it quick. Knowledge is power, really. Until a week ago, I never knew such evil people existed. I’ve NEVER come across anyone this severe. I wish I could somehow reach out and commiserate with some of his prior victims. What a healing process that would be for me to know I’m not crazy. But thank you for your support on this blog. It makes me feel great to know you guys understand my feelings. It is hard to talk to ppl who don’t know. I felt alone until I stumbled onto LF. Btw, what is NC?
I hope that I can get out of this depression – and quick! I am learning how to heal and reading up on trust again. As of now, I am quick to question everything that anyone tells me. I hope it fades b/c it is giving me anxiety and headaches. I am also learning to uncover some things in my past which I think may have made me more prone to him (initially). If anything, that is the good thing that came out of it. I need to reassess my wants and needs in a relationship.
thank you for your emails.
FD
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 5:02pm
tami says:
Yes, aint they somethin’? And, when I said that he’d never said anything bad about me, I said it with complete sarcasim. I KNOW what he’s doing. And, yes, it was a long time ago that she told me that he said he’d been looking for another woman for a long time but hadn’t found one worth leaving me for until her. I remember asking her if that statement alone wasn’t enough to let her know that he was CRAZY! It’s like I’ve said about my car, I’d like to trade because I’m a little unhappy with a couple of things about it but I haven’t found another one that I like well enough to give it up for just yet! LOL!
At one time, my heart went out to her as his next victim but I’ve practically drowned her in the water and she still won’t drink it! LOL! And, yes, it’s crossed my mind more than once that she is also a sociopath but I think her behavior is more of a reflection of the impact his has had upon her. All the poor girl seems to know is what he tells her! Thank God, I was 8 years older than him and recognized that my son had a much better sense of judgement than he did when it came to business matters, etc. This silly girl thinks because he’s 10 years older than she that he is WISE and knows everything! Which brings me to another thought. He is actually not a very smart person…not a lot of book sense nor common sense. I can’t help but wonder how he can be SO stupid in these ways, yet so powerfully intelligent as a con? Maybe he’s only actling like he’s stupid in other ways. Afterall, it does get him off the hook when it comes to having to assume responsibilities or hold down a job! Mercy me!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 5:05pm
OxDrover says:
Maybe he thought that “she was worth more” because you were geteing wise to his ways and that she might be “fresh meat” he could manipulate. LOL Yea, they are “sumptin” all right! Sumptin creepy! ROTFLMAO
I just think of it this way, Tami, look at how much better off you are because she “stole” your man! ROTFLMAO Who got the best end of THAT DEAL!!!!!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 5:12pm
Iwonder says:
Hi Freshly Duped:
What a story!! Thank God the friend spilled the beans and told you he was married. I wish I had a clue about what I was getting into before it was too late. Someone up there is looking out for you. I swear, if you had played into the emotional pity party regarding the story about his relationship with the wife and kids, he would have taken you right down the tubes. This is how they do it…they get you emotionally attached to them first and after they feel you are hooked, then they start to take more, and more, and..etc., etc. until all your money, self-esteem, sanity and independence are gone. Before you know it, they’re on to the next victim. I don’t want to go into detail about what I went through but just some of the things that happened to me were:
1. I paid most of the time because he didn’t have much money.
2. He moved into my condo after 8 months and I paid for all living expenses including food.
3. His son moved in with us shortly after so I was then supporting the 3 of us because he quit his job.
4. His constant telephone calls to my job got me fired.
5. I spent $20K on my credit cards and life savings while I was looking for work and my unemployment checks for us to survive.
6. I put a down-payment on a car and made all the payments, paid for repairs, insurance, etc.
7. I bought him a dog he wanted.
8. He asked me to put his name on the deed to my condo because he said we were going to get married and wanted it as a sign of our committment…so I did like an ass.
When he left, I had to clean-up the biggest mess ever. I am in debt and looking for work. I am dating but finding it hard to trust again. I had to threaten to have him thrown in jail unless he turned over the title to my condo, I had to threaten to call the police and report the car stolen to get it back…it was a friggin nightmare!!
I am sorry you hooked-up with the Ahole. I know how the shock feels of finding out someone was a lie all along.
What really rattles us is when we find out that not everyone thinks like us or feels the way we do…we can’t fathom that people actually don’t feel anything..that they are calculating and are after something…whether it be sex, money or both…there is always a prize they are out to get. After it is used up, it’s on to the next. This is how they live.
You know what you should do??? Post his profile on dontdatehimgirl.com. I posted my ex there. It is a great place to warn others about these bloodsuckers.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 6:37pm
style1 says:
freshly duped,
Yes, when you call them out of their facade and they realize that you see what they are.. they leave.. mine did.. and when he realized I wasn’t buying ANY of his con.. he stopped contacting me..
They need to stay in their spin to survive…
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 7:31pm
style1 says:
WHY DO YOU ALL Give these men Money.. DO NOT DO IT EVER!!!!!!! And never put their names on any of your property EVER EVER EVER EVER.. Even if you marry, keep your separate property SEPARATE! That is the first things that alerted me to mine.. he was talking that he didn’t believe in prenups etc.. well, why should he, he had nothing… NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER comingle property and if they want to say NO!
Mine was trying to set me up in these ways and he realized that I was too smart for him… and he backed down.. and slinked away…
People that really love you don’t want your property… and NO WOMAN SHOULD EVER PAY OR A MAN EVEREVEREVER!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 7:39pm
henry says:
WHY? duh – I guess we were STUPID~~~!!!!! isnt this website about con men and women?
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 7:43pm
Spirit40 says:
Oh we were stupid.. thinking we were kind and generous…. mine said the lioness goes out to hunt for her pride… while the lion lays around the house surfing porn I guess… while I worked paid the bills etc…. LOL OMG!!!! yeah STOOPID… I can not believe when we bought and it was we omg 1/2 1/2 this time rings he said they were to pacify me? why would I want to exchange rings with someone just to pacify me? I realized then I did not want to get old /er with this man/boy….talk about a slap in the face. And we are not supposed to want bad things to happen to these sc– bags… why not ? he’s not worth the gum scraped off my shoe… a living coacroach….
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:15pm
tami says:
style1, henry, and all,
Duh, we gave them money because they conned us into it by telling his some pitiful sad story that pulled at our heartstrings because we are NORMAL people with hearts that are sometimes too BIG. Or, in some cases, they led us to believe that with the help of our money and their great minds, we’d BOTH share the wealth someday! That’s why most of us on here feel like total idiots! In most cases, we would have never given men money but the sociopath has a way of getting what they want based on the GOOD in us! We were targeted by them for this very reason.
And, yes, my ex S DID know that I was getting close to seeing him for WHAT he was. I put my foot down, told him that he had to find work, told him that I could no longer afford to support his pot habit nor did I want to, and that he should be paying his own child support. I also had found two women’s phone numbers in his possession and after that, I told him ONE MORE questionable thing and he was out of my house! Of course, he cried and begged, promised to be the man that he should be, blah, blah, blah. And, then within three months, he was off to Biddy Land! And you know the sick part of it all? I ALWAYS knew that if I ever ask him to assume any responsibility or “act like a man” that he’d leave me. Yet, as stressful as it was taking care of him, I FEARED him leaving me simply because my own ego craved the sugary love lies and flattery that dripped from his lips. Looking back, hell, I was as sick as he was!
Freshlyduped: YES! EVERYTHING he ever told you was a lie. Fortunately, I never have to see my ex S again so I don’t have to worry about falling into his web again…I don’t think I would have anyway because once someone lies and deceives me in the horrifice manner that he did…stick a fork in me because I’m DONE! So, no, he isn’t real. When you see him, think of Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck or better yet think of the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz. LOL! Biddy was so proud that my ex S dressed as the Tin Man this year for a Halloween party. She sent me a pic of him! I told her that was the most fitting costume he could have chosen! LOL!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:26pm
Iwonder says:
Hi Style1:
Yeah, looking back I was so stupid to share everything or should I say give everything because he wasn’t contributing. I just felt he was going through a rough spot and once he got a job, he’d pay me back. We were supposed to get married so I was acting like a partner. . little did I know, he already had another woman set up right in town so when everything I had was used up, he’d go right to her…and that he did.
I’ll never forget the look on his face and how calmly the words rolled off his tongue. I said “Nelson, I have no money. I had to take out a small loan to pay the mortgage this month. You have to get a job. You need to help me.” He cooly looked at me and simply said, “It’s time.” Do you know what that meant? I was tapped so it was time for him to go to the OW. You know what really burns me??? The OW knew he was living with me. She KNEW. Also, she had been in the picture ALL ALONG. He used her car to move into my place. I am just lucky to get my car back and my condo back. I’ll never see any of the money I used to support him and his son. Oh yeah, the son was in on it too. A 13 year old kid. They would both go to the OW’s house a few times a week. My ex would tell me he was going to his friend’s house. . and that it was a guy friend. The kid was instructed not to tell me who daddy’s “Friend” was. I would ask and he would say, “my dad said not to talk about it.” So, I had 3 people…the OW, my ex and the ex’s son all in on the dupe. The OW drove around in the car I paid for…gasonline supplied by the money I worked for. I was working, going to school at night, supporting my fiance and his son, doing all the housework, cooking, cleaning, laundry, while they all got a piece of the pie. Sorry for the long vent. I still get sick when I think about it.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:27pm
style1 says:
Spirit.. what? He told you that a lioness hurts for her Pride..??????
A man supports a woman and if he can’t then he should not be with one…
Mine lived with me but he paid rent and paid when he took me out and bought me things.. but that still wasn’t enough.. Because the house and everything else was mine.. he didn’t buy the house.. therefore had no real responsiblity to me… and I RESENTED IT.. All I ever did was buy food most the time and give him gifts on birthday and Xmas..
He paid large child support.. so it begin feeling like he was living in my great life.. and sending more his money to another household and I RESENTED THAT… Of course, he should take care of his kids.. but he didn’t have the money for a wife… and I was creating the life.. the life style and enhanced his world…and I began to RESENT That.. he talked about when his ship comes in what he will do for me.. bu his ship never came in .. and I got of him.. I don’t think that I ever loved him .. his contrived LOVE LOVE LOVE.. had me hooked in…He wanted a woman like me but had no means to support or enhance my life.. but i enhanced his.. and he made promises… and he came after me.. I was what he wanted…
well….if they can’t provide up front… say come back when you can… I wore a fake engagement ring on my finger when I have never worn fake in my life… I was being kind.. oh, poor guy he works so hard.. I am being demanding to want real… again the nice woman.. BS! I felt resentful the whole time I was with him.. he wanted to marry me in the first 3 months.. had i married this man.. I would have his bad credit, be responsible for his child support and debt and he wouldn’t have been able to afford a divorce.. so I would have had to pay for that.. after he left for Florida to be with his kids…
I didn’t get hooked in that far.. I watched .. I waited.. and my instincts proved correct… he was a fraud.. a liar… a con… a someday.. .. well, someday is now! I am still here and he is off and gone and am certain looking for the next woman.. he married the one before me in like a month and she died…and he was after me 3 months later… claiming that I was his true soulmate.. I wasn’t his soulmate!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:38pm
style1 says:
I meant to write hunts for her pride.. but maybe ‘hurts’ is more it…
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:39pm
style1 says:
This man was the most down and out man that I have ever been with and all he talked about is money, spirituality, manners and how great that he is..
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:40pm
tami says:
Good grief! They are ALL alike, aren’t they. Anytime I even hinted at my struggling to pay the bills while he laid on the couch stoned and playing video games and unbeknownst to me at the time…chasing women and buying them gifts with MY money…he’d say that’s why they all left me. I asked him what he was talking about and he’d pitifully say that all the women before me left him because he never had enough money to keep them happy!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:56pm
style1 says:
If someone is going through a rough spot.. how about saying come back when you are ready for a relationship.. that is my new deal..
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 8:57pm
witsend says:
Isn’t that the most interesting thing of all when trying to figure out how their “lies” do indeed work for them?
Even when they are lying they also DO reveal a part of themselves (the truth) that tends to get overlooked.
A great example is what Tami said above….Her X lying on the couch stoned and playing video games and yet revealing a MAJOR part of himself….That the women before left him because he never had enough money to keep them happy.
Classic example of s/p/n behavior. They really do live by their own set of rules.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:09pm
Stargazer says:
Style,
I’m like you–I have it very deeply ingrained that a man takes care of a woman. I’m not even attracted to a man that I have to pay for. If I even meet a guy for coffee and he doesn’t offer to buy mine, I lose interest. I read all the Mars and Venus books a long time ago, and they stuck. My ex, the S, never went after my money. Probably cause I don’t have any. He was actually very generous with me while we were dating. He never let me touch my wallet or drive us anywhere. Too bad about the pathological lying……
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:23pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
Yea, if you LISTEN WITH YOUR MIND NOT YOUR HEART, you can HEAR THE TRUTH behind their lies. You can bet they all left his sorry butt because it was too lazy to work! LOL Smart women!
Actually, I think you need to send BIDDY a “thank you gift” for taking that creep out of your life! She is your BEST FRIEND AND gave you the greatest gift in the world, FREEDOM from that jerk! ROTFLMAO
Style, I am not as adamant about male/female roles as you seem to be about “who pays for what” but at the same time, I would not support some guy from the “get go” and would not be interested in FORMING a relationship with someone who was “down and out” or was in very very poor health TO START with. That doesn’t mean that anyone with a “disability” of some kind would be unwelcome, or someone who was not able to “keep me in the style” I would like to become accustomed to, but at the same time, I think there needs to be a basic “equality” of “life style” financially, as well as intellectually, and morally. I wouldn’t be interested in a guy who lived at the “rescue mission” and had never had a “pot or a window” but at the same time, I would probably also not be interested in someone who was a multi-zillionaire who owned 4 homes and 12 cars and 6 boats. Our lifestyles would be too different. I would also probably not be interested in someone who couldn’t read or write very well. And as much as I “love” Matt (even if he was straight) i wouldn’t want to live in NYC or in an apartment. I love living in the boondocks and doing the things that are important to my lifestyle.
My late husband and I both had kids when we married and our own things, so we had a prenup before we married, “just in case’ and also in case one of us died the other one’s kids couldn’t be a problem and each of us would have our things go to our own kids.
I worked a salaried job and had a pay check twice a month, my husband did consulting and sometimes would go for a year or two without much income but then would bring in in one wad what I made in two years. Our finances were mingled some, but if you totaled up what he made and what I made during our marriage (20 years) it was about the same though it came in in different ways and different times so we both contributed to the overall upkeep of the family and the home.
I provided the land (inherited family land) and he built the house, barn, hangar and airport, we built the farm up together, we each had what we wanted and worked together. He didn’t “support” me and I didn’t “support” hjim, we supported EACH OTHER.
If I ever had another relationship it would be the same way (or not at all) we would both contribute to the expenses necessary to run a home shared by a couple. My kids who live here kick in for room and board and do a fair share of the chores at home and on the farm…this is not a flop house for people who dont’ want to work and I’m no one’s maid, we all pitch in and all enjoy the benefits of a nice home, a lovely place to live and a good lifestyle. One of my sons has his own home on this same farm, but it is currently rented out and he lives here in my house because he enjoys being here and the benefits of a couple of ‘roomies” that pitch in on utilities and chores. It beats doing it all yourself.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:27pm
style1 says:
When I told mine that I was tired of waiting for someday. That this is my life now. He said that he was tired of hearing this.
Ummm.. so some other woman told him the same thing…
I have a feeling that all the women that he was with were women of some means.. all had wealthy families.. that is what he is attracted to.. he comes in gets them pregnant.. and of course, he works, but the whole image is that of the wives…
now he is older and isn’t looking to have children.. he is still taking care of those from the last wives.. and now he is looking for an older woman.. and expects them to caretake his kids.. and provide the stablity and home etc.. while he works and pays for his kids and talks about someday … he is almost 60 with a 14 year old…
and he has no money.. lives pay check to pay check.. can’t afford a house, has bad credit.. so he needs a woman with a house…the least will be up on his car in January.. I wonder what he is going to do??? I bet that he would’ve asked me for money for a down payment and I would’ve said NO!
no planning on his part.. he rolls through life like a gypsy…
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:34pm
tami says:
The thing that amazes me MOST about sociopaths is that they are so deceitful and tell huge lies but they also know how to tell the truth in a way that works in their best interest when they’re backed into a corner! That IS the greatest thing that sets me apart from Biddy. He KNEW that I would NOT under NO circumstances tolerate cheating. He cheated on me with numerous women during our entire marriage and I never had a clue. There were a few “questionable” incidences that I now realize that I allowed him to lie his way out of. He KNEW that he could never admit to me that he had cheated because his ass would have been out my house and my life immediately. He admitted to Biddy that he cheated on her…of course it was all her fault as well as the numerous women that he cheated on her with…those bad, bad girls! However, she feels that since he admitted that he had cheated on her although he twisted the truth in a way that still made him appear to be the victim, that he is a changed man! Afterall he admitted all his wrongs to HER and felt that he could never be HIMSELF with me. He actually told her that and she thinks that makes her special! LOL! It’s like these animals have a 6th sense and can judge what lengths another person will allow them to go to before kicking them out. That’s why they can be SO confusing. At times, they appear to be honest and admit their “wrongs” and beg for forgiveness. It’s just they know which wrongs their victims will forgive and which ones they will not!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:36pm
style1 says:
I think how couple work things out is between them.. but when going in one has all the assets and the other all the libility.. it’s one sided… and that is how mine was..
I have no children assets and he had debt and three kids and one child ill that will always need care.. I don’t want children at this late date and I told him that up front… he wanted a woman like me and a woman like me doesn’t want what he has to offer so he creates this bib business deal and this spin and for awhile it seems plausible…. but it isn’t…
he has nothing to offer a woman but debt and burdens.. and he tried.. he works so I felt sorry for him for awhile.. but if I needed him to help me .. no way… his resources what little he has goes to his ex and her kids… and his bossy emotionally cripple daughter wants to control everyone…
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:43pm
Stargazer says:
Tami,
I think it says a lot about the charm of a sociopath when he/she can convince their partner they are “changed” after a lifetime of cheating. Too bad they like to live like parasites off of others because they could probably make a fortune in Hollywood.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:44pm
Stargazer says:
You know, when I think about all the energy that sociopath I dated put into conning the army (he faked a medical condition for 2 years!)….he could have done so much with that time and energy. A friend of mine actually offered him some part-time work doing roofing. It would have been very lucrative. The S turned it down because he had all kinds of “medical” appointments. The truth was that he was telling the army he couldn’t drive, couldn’t walk, talk, or feel anything from the waist down. So he had to rearrange his whole life to keep up the fraud. Many of you know the story of how I singlehandedly brought him down and got him convicted of fraud and adultery. (Okay, well maybe I gloated a little over that. lol)
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:53pm
style1 says:
Yes. Tami agree.. they sense what they can and can’t get away with..
when he met my father.. and family.. he saw that this was a real deal and his BS wasn’t going to fly… he would tell me to not mention his ‘deals’ to my Dad.. which made me suspecious.. anything real isn’t that secret… he knew now to play it so he got away with it for awhile.. but really I always saw through him..
but the day that he moved in after four months of dating.. and I found out that he was being evicted.. I should’ve kicked him out then… but I was in the spin.. and dream of the lie… that he loved me and things would be like he said.. but each month that ticked by .. I knew he was not for me.. he was not real.. he was spinning…the last time we were with my family at a family dinner.. he had a stomach ache the whole time.. I knew that he knew that he couldn’t play with the big boys.. I only saw him one time after that.. I had no respect for him… he was trying to act the business mogel and I knew the truth.. and I felt ashamed that I was with him… I told him.. why not just be a man.. he would alternate from being this spiritual guru to this master of the business world… one time, we were in the car and there was a dead animal on the street.. and he said that he was going to send energy to the animal to help it get to God…
Like God or the animal needs his help..
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:53pm
tami says:
I kind of feel the same way. I don’t really expect a man to take care of me or even make as much money as I do BUT I do expect one to work at least 40 hours a week and contribute to the household! My S started off like that, he worked, he took care of the yard work, even washed my car and helped with the housework. I thought I’d found an angel! Well, that was short lived and ended right after I married him. We lived together for about 6 months before marrying.
My current husband takes care of EVERYTHING! I resigned from my job of 27 years shortly before we married and I now do the paperwork for his business…takes about 15 minutes a day. He WANTS to take care of me, yet he doesn’t try to control me, either. I manage all the money and he sometimes scolds me for not buying things for myself. I’m having a hard time adjusting to spending HIS money after resenting how it felt to have someone run free with MINE! But, I’m getting there. One of the first things he did when I accepted his marriage proposal was do some minor repairs on my car. I was tickled pink not to have to pay someone to do this! Two days later, he pulled in with a BMW and handed me the keys and told me to drive to the courthouse so I could register it in my name. I gave my older car to my son and it’s still clicking right along. Biddy has now bought my ex-S two trucks…I bought him four! So, yes, thank you, Biddy!
Ladies and gentlemen, there IS a light at the end of the tunnel. You won’t mess up the next time if you’ll continue to educate yourself on the behavior of S/N/Ps. You’ll be like a bloodhound when it comes to sniffing one out. Their behavior is classic and the poor fools ALL feel that they are such unique individuals!!!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 9:54pm
tami says:
Stargazer, it’s so funny that you would mention Hollywood. My ex S is a drummer in a band that plays local dives. I told Biddy several times that he missed his true calling when he chose to become a musician. I told her that he was a much more talented actor! LOL!
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 10:00pm
style1 says:
They are all great actors…
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 10:09pm
freshlyduped says:
style1 and tami,
I’m learning how to put my guard up in the future…at least in my next relationship. I’ve always been the trusting one but now I need to be smarter. Once duped, it’s his fault, twice duped, my fault!
I can’t believe your stories. Funny thing is, i can possibly see myself doing the same thing. I did pay for everything in the beginning – that’s b/c he doesn’t make that much in training (well, that’s what I told myself). He threw me a bone once in a while – took me to a nice Italian dinner, paid for things here and there but was NEVER a gentleman. No chivalry. No door opening, etc. He’d go straight to the driver door (of MY car btw b/c he said he didn’t own a vehicle –probably a lie) and leave me flailing in the wind. That was a small red flag but I let it go. I used to bring him food and cook for him. Thank God my instincts told me to stop. I know he was suspicious towards the end because my behavior changed. He even said that after I confronted him with facts about his wife and kids, he knew that I knew. I asked him when he was going to tell me – to which he replied, I don’t know… until the divorce went through (LIE!) or when I finish (LIE!), I don’t really know. ???WTF. That’s when I knew a screw was loose.
He has stopped stalking me for now. When and if I ever come close enough for conversation, I will tell him that he is a sociopath. Not sure how I will word it without making him vindictive. Do they get vindictive? I need to protect myself.
Tami – what a great tactic. Tin Man or Donald Duck. I’m seeing this doctor in a white coat with a big yellow bill and webbed feet. or a metal man who walks awkwardly through the halls of the hospital. you made me LOL!
Iwonder:
I’m afraid my facts will be too obvious if I post it on don’tdatehimgirl.com. wow, i’m so sorry for what your vampire put you through!!! sometimes I thank God that I discovered the real him before he reeled me in emotionally, and then financially. What you said is SO TRUE – the shock of knowing there are people like that out there. This shook me for days. I always had a voice inside that took note of his inconsistencies but just shot it down b/c I always concluded – he CANNOT be that evil and he CANNOT lie like this. There is NO WAY he would change his W2 tax status just so it would say SINGLE – JUST to persuade me to stay in this relationship. What man would connive and lie to cultivate a relationship? That would be ABSURD!! and you know what? It turned out to be 10x more absurd than I ever imagined. What a slap in the face.
But now I understand, they can’t feel anything. No love, hurt, remorse, guilt, sadness (maybe quick moments), shame, etc. This usually stops my thought process of reasoning it out b/c I tell myself, I am not going to understand him b/c I am not a sociopath.
FD
I am at day 8 of being free.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 10:35pm
Iwonder says:
FD: No car is another red flag. My ex didn’t own a vehicle either when I met him. He was driving a car and told me it belonged to a guy in the apt house where he lives and that he let him use it. After I bought a car for him, and after our relationship ended, I found out that the car was actually owned by his ex-wife and he abandoned it after I bought him one. She wound up getting tickets for it being illegally parked and abandoned. I spoke with the ex-wife and found out alot more too. He abused her pretty bad…emotionally and physically. She left him. I met him a few months later while they were separated.
Want to hear a good one? He was still married to #1 when he met me and was going to file an annullment to marry me, #2. Meanwhile, while living with me, he was setting up #3. The web got stickier even yet because he told me #1 was already married when he met her and that divorce didn’t go through yet so technically, #1 was married to my ex-S and another guy. The story my ex-S gave was, “I didn’t know she was married when I met her. When I found out, I left her.” That was all BS. He knew #1 was married when he married her but thought it wasn’t recognized here because she was married in another country. I tell you, over the course of 18 months, we saw 3 lawyers to get that annullment so we could get married. It was all a Hollywood performance. The first 2 times he told the same story about how he didn’t know she was married. Then, he finally told me the truth. Well, I gave him $2,500 to pay a lawyer to straighten things out. He spent that money and never got divorced. Meanwhile he hooked #3.
When I found out about #3 and kicked him out, #1 and I got together and I gave her the address where she could serve the divorce papers. She had moved on and wanted that divorce for 2 years. She had to fly to NJ from FL to get things done. 2 days before the hearing, she spoke with the S. He never mentioned the court date to her at all. She said to me, “I wonder when I’m going to get a notice from the court. ” I told her not to go through the S, contact the court direct to see what’s going on. This is how she found out about the date. She showed up ….of course he didn’t expect her to. And she got her divorce finally.
What a mess. Thank God #1 was nice. She being the legal wife (or illegal?) may have entitled her to a piece of my condo because I his name on the deed.
So here it was. He was married to #1, engaged to #2 and had a girlfriend #3. I still think it was a scam..a fraud..in that #3 and him were out to get what they could from me. He thought he was going to get the car too.
Sorry for the long post. It is an unbelieveable story, I know.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:16pm
henry says:
Howdy Iwonder – Long time no see. Yep no car is red flag. We discussed that before. No driver license is a red flag also, prolly has alot to do with the reason they don’t have a car. But seem’s they always have a vehicle. So Iwonder we dont have to #1 or #3 or #17 to anyine ever again. We are #1 to us now. But they did leave us with some great stories to tell..
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:23pm
Iwonder says:
Henry: The past is gone and thank God for that. It won’t happen again. Funny about how my ex never thought any of us would find out the truth. He never knew I could get in touch with #1 and he didn’t think I would ever get #3’s name or address too.
I wonder if #3 bought him a car and put his name on the deed to his condo. I know he moved his son into her condo right away. Ugh…who cares.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:33pm
henry says:
Iwonder stop iwonderin~~!! I know I know – i still wonder too but in a different way. I realize how much like robot’s they are. Somebody will tighten their nut’s too tight someday, I am just glad he is a page in my history..
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:43pm
ErinBrock says:
Ya know…..
This has jogged mymemory…..the above wife #1….GF #2 yada….
At one point the S (I was about 16 at the time) came over my parents house, we were broken up for the millionth time……he showed up and asked me to come outside to talk…..I did (duhhhh!)…..he told me he was engaged?!?!?!!
ENGAGED? TO WHO? He said his buddy had a maid and he wanted S to marry her to make her legal……I didn’t believe him, so he brought me a MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE! He said it wasn’t legal yet…..
NOW i’m wondering if it was legal…..and he DID marry this woman???
Why would he have a marriage cert. and no legal marriage? It wasn’t as if they would have had the white dress type of, invite 200 people type wedding……
I bet he was/is legally married!
I’m gonna dig up this………I know the county, I saw the cert.
Howly moly…….
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:47pm
Iwonder says:
EB: You better check that out right away. A marriage certificate is a marriage certificate. Uh Oh.
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Saturday, 28 November 2009 @ 11:51pm
Unbound Angel says:
Thank you Steve for a really great post.
The question of “why” has always been the hardest question for me.
Therapy had told me never to ask why..because in the end… ” the why of it” does not matter anymore..it just is…very hard concept to accept… your post put that into context for me which was very helpful (the rabid dog was brilliant)
Question for anyone…I have been on many boards for a very long time…and always wondered that if posting and chatting on these subjects somehow perpetuated the constant searching for answers ??… I found… the more I posted..the more questions I had…I was trying to understand “why” he did what he did…even tonight..I had a momentary thought about “how” he could do..what he did to me..and why?
Do we humans hold others to a standard that says everyone is good kind and loving and when we meet that “one” who is not…we try to figure out why instead of just acknowledging them for what they are and basing our choices on that.
any thoughts ?
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 12:20am
henry says:
unbound angel – We can not hold a sociopath to any human standards. They are in a class unto themselves. Yes I think we can spend too much time trying to figure them out.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 12:29am
freshlyduped says:
Iwonder,
I am so stupid!! Now I’m recalling all the conversations about him not having a car. I feel so duped! He lives literally 5 min from the hospital and just LIVES at the hospital so I naturally thought it made sense. Why have a car when you’re trying to save money and especially when you don’t NEED one to get around b/c you live so close…but it’s LA – everyone has a CAR!! duh!!! of course later he told me his wife had a car b/c one would obviously need one to lug 3 kids around. He made up such elaborate stories about so and so dropping him off and picking him up, etc to get around town. omg, i feel so stupid right now. It is laughable. You know how many times I brought him back and forth to my house – I look like such a fool! I think I’m going to put my head in the microwave right now.
I’ve not felt like confronting him since after the confrontation but now I just want to smush it in his face. But then I realize he’d just make up a lie saying, oh I didn’t want to lose you and had to hide it from you that I did own a car. How can one’s conscience sit there with me picking him up from the hospital, taking him back to my house, then dropping him off in the morning, and driving back to my house!!!! I even offered to let him use my old car since it was just sitting in the garage b/c I felt sorry for him (which he refused)!!! omg, I am ILL.
I can’t believe your story!!!!!!!!!!!!! i have to pick my jaw up from the floor. I can barely keep the story straight while reading, how can a human keep it straight and live it for such a long time??? WOW is all I have to say. I wonder if my S has a #3, #4, #5, etc. I’d sure like to share stories. That must have been so therapeutic for you??
The only thing that makes me feel good (in a sick way) is that these sociopaths just can’t be living a happy life. There is no way, with this amount of evil and dysfunction in them, they are able to carry on a life that is worth drawing happiness from. With this level of evilness, how can he possibly be raising 3 healthy children and have a “loving, healthy” relationship with his wife of 10 years (w/a 7yo boy and 5yo twin girls which I know is true b/c I saw pics of them)? Or have a healthy family? or friends for that matter? He told me he was a loner/recluse in the beginning. That was probably my first red flag.
I’m going to throw up now. He is probably laughing so hard right now, I am so embarrassed.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 1:14am
Iwonder says:
FD:
“A wife of 10 years.” Nice guy. I wonder if he takes his wedding band off during his schtick and then puts it on when he goes home to wifey. Or does he go home to the 2 government officials?? LOL!! LOL!!!
I am telling you again that you are so lucky your friend tipped you off about him being married. Friends need to stick together like that. Some people would just shake their heads and say, “none of my business.”
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 1:37am
freshlyduped says:
He doesn’t wear a wedding ring b/c he’s in the operating room all the time. None of the surgeons wear wedding rings so this was not really a red flag to me. I did a background check and he really has been married for 10 years. So this does not really match the behavior of a regular sociopath – jumping from relationship to relationship. but perhaps jumping from affair to affair – yes.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 2:21am
tami says:
Freshly Duped and others,
I don’t think I’d consider his being married for 10 years not matching the behavior of a of sociopath. He’s still married because it’s the most convenient way of life for him right now and he has managed to keep his wife in the dark. Think of the child support he’d be facing for his two kids if they got a divorce. You say he has no money so child support payments is the LAST thing he wants!
Donald Duck it is! And, anytime he tries to speak with you about the two of you, close out his words and hear them as “quack, quack, quack, quack”. Speaking of quacks, I don’t want this guy performing surgery on me!
I was married to my ex-S for 8 years. When he was leaving, he told me that I should feel good about that because he had stayed longer with me than any other woman and that I was his record! No, I was the dumbest of all of the women prior to me! The others weren’t as slow to catch on! I think you’re right in thinking that he’s jumping from affair to affair…they HAVE to have something going ALL the time.
Hey! Mine had a car when he moved in with me! I even paid to have it towed to my house because it hadn’t ran in over 2 years!
Oh, and these marriage/divorces you all speak of. I was dumb enough to pay for my ex-s divorce because he was still legally married to wife number 2. He’s now had 4 wives whom he has no children with but has children with 2 previous girlfriends. Fine fellow! Never sees his kids but tells a pitiful story of how the mothers won’t all him to.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 4:39am
Spirit40 says:
OMG… why Quack quack quack?? that is what my ex used to say?? is that an AA term?? how come they can use this on us???
Yeah no car, no license if that isnt a red flag what is… I tried to help get his license back he didnt want to pay the money! go figure….good stay a loser….does it really matter to me… yeah when my car insurance got canceled that is how I found out…what jerks…. who need em….I think we need the LF questionnaire on dating someone… start off with How do you feel about such and such? What does empathy mean to you? and when they respond with
“well I am HOT” and you should do anything you can to keep me that is when we run like hell in the other direction……
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 5:29am
pollyannanomore says:
I think they should all be branded with the words “serial asshole” on their foreheads so they’re easy to recognise
The it moved here, let his native licence lapse and didn’t bother paying the fee to ’swap’ it for one in my country. So he drove illegally for eight yrs in defiance of the law with no licence. I wondered every day when he would get caught. No conscience – no fear, no anxiety at all. Only when his job forced him to get one and followed up with dates they expected parts of it to be achieved did he get off his ass and get it sorted.
This one was sneaky with money. He spent all his earned money on rubbish for himself forcing me to take care of all the household expenses and bills. Sneaky and nasty. And because he had a bad credit rating and the bills were in joint names, I had no choice but to pay them or my credit rating would have been ruined too. He took on tens of thousands for TOYS – tech equipment for this amazing new business or vocation he was going to get off the ground. He had some great ideas but no motivation and no planning – so no action. Thank goodness I never got tied up in any investment or business scheme with him – things couold have been much worse.
He also has no car of his own – his work has provided a company car and he is proud of the fact he didn’t need to buy it – a win for him – pathetic for a grown man.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:04am
Spirit40 says:
Yeah they are all sneaky with “their” money but frivolous with OURS!!!!!!!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:14am
tami says:
Hey, for those you who had the fortunate of experience of already owning/buying your own homes and then allowing them to move in with you, did your S/N/Ps ever refer to the house payment and utilities associated with the home as YOUR debts?!? Hey, I married this nut, even added him to the deed to property although the home was financed in my name only. It was HIS home, too. It was his shelter, he benefited from all the utilities by staying warm, water, phone, cable TV, etc. However, he didn’t feel that he should pay MY bills. Also, on the rare occasion that he MIGHT cut the grass or weedeat, he’d come in and definatly announce that MY grass was cut or that MY weedeating was done! WTF?
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:27am
tami says:
I meant defiantly announce…can’t typ today!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:28am
tami says:
TYPE!!! Good grief!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:28am
Spirit40 says:
Yep……I made the mistake of wanting him back after my father past….and we moved cross country, thank god the house fell through, thank god I did not sign the will leaving him in charge of what happens to me, thank god he is not on my child’s birth certificate…he sat around and drank all day(blamed me for enabling him)…. bought him vehicle that he thought was HIS POSSESSION, I kept telling him no license, no money to pay the bills I need to sell it!
Oh boy I was stoopid for selling it for that price I got screwed well… who cares I sold it because YOU WOULDNT PAY THE RENT, I WAS PAYING ALL THE BILLS….
Wait it gets better…. now I AM GETTING EVICTED… longer more convoluted story…. the plot is juicy but its all made up in my head, he used the landlord to humiliate me as well….. who knows if he had an affair with the old bat as well…. but I AM THE ONE WHO IS RUDE so I am being evicted as he says… it was not because he didnt HELP pay the bills….. Sorry I needed to VENT wooo I feel a little better……
How can they have the audacity? to think the world owes them… while they live off other people? and leave when the going gets tough … COWARDS
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:42am
freshlyduped says:
Tami
maybe Tin man is better b/c he has no heart. You all seem to be ‘generally’ over your S duping you with the infidelities and the leech-like behaviors. Last night, I went to bed shaking after I realized he probably had a car the whole time. I am still so in the dark. I say that I can assume everything was a lie but to be confronted with it hurts like hell. How do I get past this phase?? I feel like I took a major step back last night.
Yes, you’re right about the marriage/kids. I read more and realized that HE needs the wife/kids to make him look like an upstanding surgeon who has a family, etc. They are there for the purpose of him, not the other way around. He has no interest in loving his children or taking part in their growth, only if it makes him look good. The wife is there to make him look good. Of course he made her out to be the witch. “oh, she brainwashed the kids to not like me, etc” And if they left, he would feel angry, but not necessarily missing them. It’s a different perspective I guess.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 11:00am
Dianne Cadogan says:
I just have to comment on one thing that bothers me about all the information given about AsPD. In all I read, abuse or neglect is always mentioned in the personal history of the sociopath. I believe my daughter is a sociopath but there was never, ever any neglect or abuse. She was raised in a stable home with loving parents and four siblings who have turned out to be wonderful, productive, caring adults. You’re right when you say it doesn’t really matter how the sociopath came to be but not all sociopaths come from dysfunctional or destructive backgrounds. I have spent years trying to figure out what’s up with my daughter and where we went wrong. We didn’t go wrong, i truly believe she was born this way.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 12:46pm
amber says:
FD…The initail finding out hurts like hell, but in the months to come be prepared to find things out that will shock you even more. That was always the case with my EX S. I went to bed many times shaking after finding the truth out after the fact. And then I sit there and try and put all the pieces of the puzzle together and it hurts when I i figure it out and things click. And the worst part is, we had such a small group of close friends so I still hear things that make me cringe. For instance, the last time I found him cheating on me, he swore up and down she has just always been a friend which of course I didn’t believe for a second….blah blah blah…well, my sister went out a couple nights ago with all of our old friends and they were like, oh yeah they’ve been dating for a while, we were wondering where amber was. And the general consensus is that everyone thinks she’s really strange. A few people have said, Whoa that’s a step down (which I have to add, makes me feel good) and another friend said that he thinks she’s really weird becasue the one time they talked all she talked about were guns. So good. Sounds like two S/P have found each other and maybe they will kill each other off in the end.
My ex is married with kids too. He can tell me till he’s blue in the face that he’s a good dad, but a dad that spends that much time away from home, that’s a liar, a cheater and a cokehead is not a good dad. They only have these families to look normal to their extended family or for their careers. He would often say that his kids were the only people that could still love him becuase they didn’t know the truth. But that will change. They are 10 and they will grow up to realize that their dad is unavailable and a horrible person. The only reason that he went to rehab is because his kids found his stash and the wife told him it’s rehab or you’re out. Well, he went to rehab to make her happy, but I don’t think he was clean more than a month before he was using again.
And I agree that there’s no way they are living happy lives. Mine had no issue telling me how much he hated himself. That he wishes that he could just die, so the pain would stop. First red flag should have been on our second date he said that he destroyed everything that he touched and that he wasn’t a very good person, and he wanted to warn me what kind of person I was getting involved with. (why I didn’t run then, I’m still trying to figure out.) He would tell me that he didn’t see good in himself. That he was dark, empty, didn’t feel anymore. And he knew it was because of the destructive life he lived. I just always questioned that if he knew that the way he was living made him hate himself so much, then why not try and change? And it’s as if he couldn’t control it. That it was in his DNA. And people like this I truly believe can’t change.
That is the only thing that makes me happy at the end of the day. I know the truth. I know the hell that he is really living. How unhappy he truly is. He can’t keep up his act forever. He can’t pretend to play it off to the rest of the world, but he let me in, and I KNOW. That may be his biggest mistake in the end. I know right now he’s living in fear that I am going to detroy his world, the world that he has everyone else believing. He’s afraid I will out him for what he truly is. Maybe I will, maybe I won’t. But at the end of the day, I have the ability to move on and be FREE and HAPPY. He doesn’t. He will continue this viscous cycle until his insides rot completely, or he has a heart attack from the copious amounts of cocaine he does. (either of which can’t come soon enough) Karma will catch up with him someday. Educate yourself, stay positive and be thankful that this man didn’t steal more of your life. You’re free now! Stay strong. There will be set backs, but as long as you know that and you have the knowledge and the strength to know how to deal with those setbacks, you’ll be ok. Good luck to you. Hugs.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 12:58pm
pollyannanomore says:
You are all correct that the wife or partner and kids are to give a show of normalcy to the outside world and some stability to the crazy life.
Dianne – the literature seems to solidly point to a minimum of 50% of this disorder being inherited – brain scans and linguistic tests show stark differences – psychopaths don’t light up in pleasure centres for nice things the way regular people do – they light up in pleasure centres watching images of torture, pain and death. They also cannot recognise emotion either in the voice or facial features of other people. So it almost looks like a disability they are born with – or should we call it a lifestyle advantage. However unlike folk with Aspergers, Autism spectrum disorders psychopaths wreak so much havoc on others and cannot be cured so it raises some interesting societal questions – should they be locked away to protect others?
The ex psych always got the best deal during the marriage. He would pay the rent and I would pay all the bills and groceries and EVERYTHING else – clothes, doc appts, socialising expenses, pets, car problems. Somehow he convinced me it balanced out. He moved back after a yr of separation as a flatmate as he pulled such a pity play, let his life crumble around him in ‘depression’ and made me so guilty for ending it (now I know that was just another hook for more manipulation). From the minute he moved back he paid half the mortgage and that was it – no utilities, no half the groceries nothing. He would bring a couple of cat tins a week or a milk or loaf of bread – certainly not half of what was spent.
They are such shameless pigs – how do we get so entangled?
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 1:22pm
OxDrover says:
Dear dianne,
I have a psychopathic son, and he started acting out at puberty and it got worse and worse, he is now in priosn for murder and has been for 20 years. the thing is that my biological fatehr (that he never met) is a flaming, violent Psychopath, and my son is just his image…I believe strongly that hereditary influences in my son;s case were very HIGH, and can trace this back through the generations on both sides of mY family and on his fahter’s side as well.
Why does one kid turn out like that, why do the P-genes switch ON and when? Who the heck knows, but the point is that once they are switched on and at SOME point in time they become BEYOND redemption, because they are not bonded to the rest of the human race except in the same way a TICK is bonded to a dogs ear—as a parasite.
I know that having a P child is a heartbreaking situation but do not “blame” yourself in any way—the fact that your other kids turned out well is a testimony to both their genes and your nurturing. None of us are perfect parents, but you can’t make a ‘SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOW’S EAR” and frankly I think I gave birth to something that was a sow’s ear from the get go. I just didn’t want to believe it—and waffled for decades trying to find a way to save him. Can’t do it. So now I am saving myself!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 3:39pm
tami says:
Freshly Duped,
I’m sorry that you are feeling bad…all this takes time. I was totally devastated when my ex S just up and left me out of the blue. I was left in literal shock and found myself then found myself very close to anorexic. I couldn’t choke found down nor did I desire to eat. I survived by drinking Boost just to have the energy to get through my work day. Then, I came home and drank myself to the point of numbness so I could go to sleep. These were certainly NO my normal habits. I LOVE food and might have a social drink once a year. After about two months of living like this and while new horrific information was being presented to me about my ex-S behavior during our marriage, I decided that I needed help…this was something to big for me to handle.
I was fortunate enough to locate a counselor who specialized in counseling victims of abuse whether it be physical, mental, emotional, sexual, or all. During my first visit with him, I was completely honest. I wasn’t about to pay him over $100 an hour to bash my ex…I could always do that with my friends or blog. I told him that he had been the perfect husband as far as how he had treated me with the exception of his lack of interest in holding down a job. I told him that he’d never curse me, called me a bad name and that we’d never had an argument. I believe in sitting down and talking out problems in a respectful manner. So, given that he seem to shower me with affection, claimed I was his soulmate and that he didn’t know what he’d do if he ever had to face a day without me…his sudden exit left me bewildered. I also told the counselor that I had been dumped before and had suffered a few heartbreaks but somehow I didn’t feel like a jilted lover this time around. I told him the things I had been told about how he behaved behind my back throughout our entire marriage and how confused I was that I never suspected ANYTHING! I told him how I had boasted to the very women that he was cheating on me with about how good he was to me and how I couldn’t ask for a better husband.
It was somewhere at this point in our conversation that he looked me straight in the eye and informed me that I as NOT a jilted lover but rather a VICTIM of a sociopath. I thought he was nuts and blurted out my own definition of a sociopath as being a serial killer! Then he started to educate me. He also helped me understand WHY I was feeling the things that I was feeling. I was much more than just a heartbreak. My dreams had been destroyed by this man. He had built me up just to tear me down. He had violated me…raped me financially, emotionally and sexually. He had inflicted degradation and humiliation upon me and ENJOYED it. He told me to never refer to myself as a jilted lover or a scorned ex-wife where this man was concerned because I was neither…I was a victim who was about to become a surivivor!
My counselor summed everything up for me. It suddenly all made sense. I had NOTHING left to wonder about. I had been asking myself WHY, WHY, WHY for over 2 months and I would have NEVER figured it out on my own. He gave provided me with reading materials, he referred me to LF and he watched me go through all the stages of healing!
You are in the very early stages…you’re still hurting. Once you accept and believe that this man is truely a sociopath, you can expect to become enraged next. However, you MUST remember that striking out at him is of not use to you…he doesn’t feel your pain nor your anger and if you let him see it…he will only feel gratification from it. And, please don’t attempt physically harming him…he’s not worth your going to jail!
Just always keep in mind that he is NOT real. He’s a fake and a chameleon. He doesn’t matter anymore and my guess is that you probably weren’t the only woman that he was seeing on the side. If so, he’s already replaced you by now. Pity his next victim, don’t you dare envy her!
Even now, after nearly 3 years and a new marriage, I still have to come back here to LF for brain food from time to time. There’s great people on here who are in various stages of healing. You are very much in the early stages but once you heal, you’ll be a stronger and wiser person for having endured the experience of being involved with a sociopath. Soon, his actions will be so transparent for you. God bless you and hold on tight, girlfriend!
By the way, I had been trying to drop about ten pounds for a couple of years the only thing I can say that I can truely thank the S for is a diet plan that worked! LOL!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 4:23pm
Iwonder says:
Tami:
Yes. My ex felt that the mortgage payment and everything else was my responsibility…even though he lived under my roof. His logic was “well, you’d have to pay for those things anyway, with our without me here.” He didn’t get it. Didn’t get that I had to pay for extra food and utilities for him and his son who moved in plus I paid for the car he drove. What kind of logic is that?? His son was HIS responsibility to feed and buy clothes for. What happened was he talked the mom of their child into giving them both joint custody so he could live with us 5 days a week and then live with her on weekends. She agreed because the kid failed the 4th grade 2 times in a row. We put him in a better school. So, the ex would pay for the kid’s school lunches and some clothes but that was it. He didn’t have to pay child support anymore. What an ass. He was shuffling the kid from my place to the OW’s place during the week eating for free and living for free and then shuffling him back to the real mom’s on weekends. He felt no obligation to pay me for anything and I bet he did not pay the OW anything either. When I kicked him out and took the car back, the OW wound up driving him around in her car. Or should I say “taking” her car. What he would do to isolate me was to take my car, drop me off at work, pick me up from work too. This way, I could not have any freedom at all. This is probably what he did to the OW too. I wonder if she bought him a car by now.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 5:52pm
DancingWarrior says:
Dear Steve,
I am the deer in the headlights.
My therapist, who knows my narcissistic husband, supports my leaving the marriage. But I feel just like a deer in the headlights, unable to move forward or back. Wanting to cling to the belief that he loves me. But she tells me there is no one there on the other side. And I just can’t grasp that.
She has said to me:
–You need to rescue YOURSELF.
–He will NEVER give you the empathy you long for.
–The prognosis that you will be happy with him is very POOR.
–He sees you as an OBJECT.
–His defense is so strong that he can easily say you don’t matter and discard you if things don’t work out.
–You keep going back hoping to find something DIFFERENT when he’s shown you consistently that he can’t do anymore (emotionally).
After a year and a half separation, I still wait for him to show me that he doesn’t want to lose me.
After I filed for divorce in June, then got cold feet in Oct and asked to try again, now we’ve seen his former therapist, John, as a couples therapist twice. John says to him that he acts out aggressively his issues into the relationship. Says that if husband wants “fast track” therapy as he said he did, he should work on “projective identification” where he is very angry, projects the anger on his wife, so that he then becomes the victim, and until he works that out withing himself, there can’t be a relationship.
Now he doesn’t want to go back to that therapist. I think he feels humiliated and threatened that HE has a problem pronounced to the world (i.e. me).
And I don’t have the courage to leave. I fear I’ll fall apart without him. I believe that I NEED him to survive. I believe I depend on him, even though I know he has not offered emotional nurturing I want.
Thanks for the insights. It stills does not UN-stun me from the headlights.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 6:42pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Dancing Warrior:
Oh girl, I am so sorry that you are standing there waiting for the car to run you over, again and again.
Pain and drama/trauma ARE mesmerizing.
There is a really good article here (somewhere…can never find a damn thing here) about nuero pathways, and our ‘pleasure pathways’ getting hijacked by the spaths. I KNOW this to be TRUE. It starts with something that feels good, and once we are hooked….well, then we are f**ked.
He can’t lose you – HE NEVER HAD YOU. See? He is a figment of his and your imagination. See?
But, YOU have lost you. See? see?
And THAT’S the POINT.
So, you fall apart without him. Embrace it, cause all that glue that is him is acid waste and falling apart is a small price to pay for ridding yourself of the pain in your viens. ALL those thoughts, THAT you NEED him -THAT is the evil of him. See?
Close your eyes, for just a second, just a mili-second, you’ve done it before. It’s just the walk off the road, keep your head down, don’t look up. You CAN make it.
ALL the best,
one step
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:31pm
henry says:
I dont think they are unhappy. Unhappy is an emotion. They might be frustrated or pissed that they don’t get what they want. But unhappy, nope. Same goes for happiness, as long as they get what they want and do what they want and things go their way they might have a smile on their face and a happy attitude but it aint happy they feel, it’s power and contol they live for. They dont know about happy or unhappy.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:42pm
Matt says:
Regarding the earlier discussion on the lack of jobs, lack of financial contribution, lack of responsibility, lack of drivers licenses, lack of cars, etc, I have said it before and I’ll say it again–to determine whether someone is worth getting involved with, a good starting place is the “4-ations”:
1. Do they have education?
2. Do they have occupation?
3. Do they have habitation?
4. Do they have transportation?
When I finally stopped making excuses for the lacks possesed by every loser I have ever dated — and which the S possessed in spades, I realized I needed to take a new approach to who I chose to get involved with. Using the 4 ations as a starting point paid off. I met a really great guy and things have been going really well for 6 months.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 7:55pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
A few people have mentioned that spaths don’t like humour and laughter.
Mine must have an inordinate amount of joyous contempt, cause we laughed all the time.
erggh, THAT thought is best left for another day. I have had a LOT of epiphanies today and am tired for it.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 8:07pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
ouu, and my spath has a husband, an address, SEVERAL NAMES, phones, a SERIOUS AVOCATION and a little internet art business.
and if i had more time i would watch her house on google earth and figure out what make her car is, cause she managed to drive a half hour away from her home to mail me crap.
one step, who is mighty pissed.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 8:11pm
freshlyduped says:
Hi Amber/Tami
Thanks for your post. I am begining to see the hints. I always thought it was weird that he told me I should probably be with someone else who could make me happy. He said he didn’t want to stand in the way of someone else being able to do that b/c he wanted me to be happy b/c he thought I deserved it. He never admitted to me what he probably knows (sociopathic tendecies) although he did say he had a lot of issues and that he knew needed to see a therapist. He always said it was family issues though and also related to a college GF who died in a car crash, then his parents divorced shortly after, leaving him with walls all up around him which impeded his ability to love (hmm, some foreshadowing here!). We had endless nights of conversation about this and of course me the caring person would sit there and comfort him and allow him to open up and share. All the while he is twisting that fork deeper and deeper into me.
Of note, in “the sociopath next door”, Martha Stout talks about a male sociopath giving the same story about a GF who had died in a car crash leaving him messed up (PITY PLOY here) which tipped me off to my S giving the same BS. How timely this exact verbatim story came out, leaving me reaching out to him more. I’ll never know if this is factual info but who cares at this point.
I know I’m in the early stages of healing. The initial shock has worn off but like Tami said, I keep thinking of conversations we’ve had and I start shaking and going into panic mode when I realize the story was more than likely a lie with a motive to 1)impress me, 2) inflate his own dilusional ego for self satisfaction, and 3) work to manipulate and dominate in his own game of winning ME and my soul.
He has avoided me the last 2 days at work after stalking me on Thanksgiving day (at work) so I hope I am lucky he continues this NC. I like your approach amber – that he may be living in fear that I will spill to people at work so he has to keep things on the DL. I wont say anything but he won’t know that. And that is what will allow me to take control of the situation which will in turn propel me further in my healing process b/c I need to get the heck out of this state. I feel so hypersensitive to men and relationships right now. I want my innocence back.
(( I don’t want to be jaded and go into my next relationship doubting everything he says or does.
you’re right, I need to deal w/these setbacks. I need to have in place mechanisms to explain and reason it in my head that he did not intentionally mean to ‘hurt’ me b/c he doesn’t know hurt. His goal/motive just put him in the position to continue hurting me without empathy for doing so.
Tami, I HOPE he has moved on and forgotten about me. Of course I say that but I am still thinking about him 24-7 and trying to put myself in his shoes. He’s probably at home playing Wii with his kids and saying “Jennifer who?” (name changed). That makes me feel a tiny bit better, yeah right. It’s just not in his DNA.
ok I know time will heal and allow me to forget. but these early moments are tough. I am lonely and lost in these thoughts. Thank God for LF and all of you. I’m so lucky to have stumbled across this site when I googled “dating a pathological liar”
hopefully I’m moving towards some happines and self value/worth in the near future.. FD
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 8:15pm
justabouthealed says:
Dancing Warrior…. For most, I think it is very hard to get unstunned while still living with them, while still having contact. I know it took me a couple of years to follow all the advise the therapist gave me. I hope you can go no contact soon and get unstunned. You are already living without him, in terms of emotional support. He is not there for you. You just need to make the physical reality match the emotional reality. Leave if you can, it make take a year, or even longer, but you will get unstunned and there is a better life for you. Read the postings here and you may get unstunned MUCH MUCH faster. Sometimes it can suddenly happen in the course of one conversation. That is what happened to me. Suddenly I saw him for what he was and dropped the phone (we were talking on the phone) like I had been shocked by electricity. Instead, I had been shocked awake by the truth.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 8:22pm
Donna Andersen says:
Dancing Warrior,
Sociopaths use fear and anxiety to keep their victims bonded – it sounds like that is what you are experiencing. It actually evolves into an addiction to be with the sociopath. The following article explains this:
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....nd-liking/
Therefore, in order to break free, you’ll need to treat it like an addiction. You have to go cold turkey to get him out of your life – every time you go back, or allow him back – even for a phone call – it’s like starting over.
So you have to get away, and then take it one day at a time to stay away. One day at a time. You can do it one day at a time.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 9:03pm
ErinBrock says:
Matt:
At this point the S is lacking on all the ‘4 ations’…..
I remembered back, a few nights ago, after reading about this…..
The S was just like this…..we had relocated about 20 years ago to where I am now…..kids…..then I got pregers….with first…..he NEVER WORKED! I even worked pregers, waiting tables 8+ months pregers in a dinner house.
as he sat on his ass…..3 weeks after my c section I went right back to opening up a new restaurant on the water becasue the timing was what it was….it was a summer deal only…..so I did it…..as he sat on his ass…..I pumped breast milk….inbetween tables…..as he sat on his ass.
Now….I know he was selling dope too……so in his mind….he worked!
But…..if ALL PERSONS looking to date would adhere to the 4 ations rule……without exception….and I don’t give a shit what the economy is doing…..we wouldn’t be in such a mess!!!
Thanks for the reminder….I have a date wed…..funny enough….with a PI!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 9:47pm
ErinBrock says:
Yes Matt….I totally agree…..
So if your asking me out…..I must decline…..
Actually…..I think we could sure kick some butt if we teamed up…..professionally!
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 10:30pm
henry says:
hmmm alot of people cant afford to eat these days.
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 10:37pm
OxDrover says:
MATT! Guess who e mailed me the day after TG wanting to know when they could arrange to pick up their stuff out of the warehouse!? LOL
Said he hadn’t contacted me because he lost my phone number and my son d had not taken his calls since January 15th–which turned out to be true, he had called D and asked for money (he still owes D money from a previous “loan”) and D said NO!
Funny, though, he DID have my e mail address cause that was how he contacted me this time.
Also, since they had a KEY to the place and it wasn’t behind a locked gate or anything, I don’t see any reason that he has to make “arrangements” with me to go down there and get his stuff–do you? LOL There is nothing left there now except 50+ huge boxes of wet clothing and wet books and trash where it has rained in the leaky roof and through the part of the roof that is gone.
I actually had a good laugh at the e mail he wrote projecting blame on my son D for not taking his calls and on “losing” my phone number (he has used this excuse the last 2-3 times he has contacted me by e mail) and then the PITY play about being in a wheel chair–which he has been for 30+ years, but most of his problem is the huge addiction to Rx narcotics by the handfull and staying stoned 24/7 (which is part of his money problems as well)
I think what the whole deal was about was he was waiting for me to be inconvenienced enough that I would volunteer my vehicle, my gas, and my and D’s labor to move the stuff (again) for my own convenience. He’s pretty good at out waiting people, but I think this time, he miscalculated my investment in taking care of his stuff and doing for him what he ought to be doing for himself, as well as my “pity” level for people in wheel chairs.
I worked in spinal cord rehab long enough that I am not overcome with pity for physical disabilities. Some of the most active and productive people I know are and have been in a WC for decades, but they dont’ sit on their arses and whine about it, they get out and do to the best of their ability, go to school, work, and don’t stay blatto on drugs and feel sorry for themselves. They manage their finances and support their kids and families—in short, they live life, not whine about others not taking care of them. Man what a hard arse I have become, huh?!
Matt, your 4-ations are a very good start! But I would like to add a 5th A-tion–REPUT-ation.
The reason for this is that when you meet someone “in isolation’ and you dont’ know them, it is almost like a cyber-hook up, they can pretend to be anything and you have no way to judge (except by external appearances) whether they are representing themselves as they are or if they are trying to pull a fast one on you by pretending to be someone/thing they are not.
So by meeting their friends, co workers, neighbors, etc you might be much more able to put that person into CONTEXT of REPUT-ation and though that might not always work, it at the same time, should give you a better idea if the rest of the things are true or not.
The transport-ation could be borrowed or rented, along with the habit-ation, the educ-atioon can be faked (get diplomas on line for $5 LOL) etc. but REPUT-ation is harder to fake.
Reputation was what finally outed my X BF to me, when I ibegan to hear the stories of how he behaved in the past with his x wife, it started me thinking. Without those “mutual” friends we had I would probably have married the s-pathole
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 11:42pm
ErinBrock says:
OXY…..
I thought you burned the barn!
I just went through the Soc #2’s stuff and unfortunately it too got snowed on and rained on……so it was all moldy and stinky…..maybe a good time to offer it back…..delivered!!!!
I filled my trash cans and put it out at the street……and the BEAR got into it and spewed it about 1/8th of a mile…..bank statements to moldy clothes….gee….I hope no one got any identification as it was blowing around all night……
I came out to take the kids to school and there was a maintenance guy picking it all up…..I was really mortified…..my neighbors were like…..EB….what in the hell was in your trash……
Maybe the S #2 drove bye and noticed his crap spewed all over the road!
So….when you getting rid of the junk?
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 11:54pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
OxDrover,
I need to get myself to bed, but HAVE to comment on your ‘5th’. yes, yes, and yes.
and if you meet someone cyber, they better show up on google…and all their supposed friends, etc.
I have had to spend some time exorcising myself from the net since the spath- I realized that part of a blog I kept was cahed, So I wrote google and had them remove it – page by frekking page. It was info I didn’t want the spath finding, just in case she hadn’t.
and I lOVE ’s-pathole’.
goodnight now.
one step
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Sunday, 29 November 2009 @ 11:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear one-step,
the s-pathole is not my original word I think Henry gets credit for that one, but my memory is so much swiss cheese I am not for sure about that one.
You sound like you are starting to get your head together, that’s good, I think many of us come here acting/feeling like wack jobs but LF helps us clear our heads and start to think straight. I credit this place with my ration of sanity–lots of good information here and putting it to use is the only way out of the hole we let them dig and push us in. In my case, I think I JUMPED into the hole, over and over, but now I am OUT and glad yuou are starting to see the light—your sense of humor seems intact, I bet the rest of you is too!
So glad you found your way here!
I didn’t know google would erase things off the internet. I don’t know squat about computers and the internet and what is possible and what isn’t. I guess I should bone up on “internet for dummies”
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 12:06am
geminigirl says:
Erin Brock, you rock!! Im sorry but I HAD to laugh about the bear getting into your trash can and scattering it all over the road! Wouldnt it be so great if we could lock up all the spaths witha couple of hungry bears, LOL! I hear they can disembowel you with one swipe of their paw!
O please God let me have this great fantasy a bit longer!!
The ancient egyptians used to throw criminals to the crocs,-Ok, crocs and bears, wed be truly doiing our bit for recycling, cleaning the planet of spaths, giving hungry creatures fresh food,after all they are TRASH, so thats all theyre fit for!I wonder if it will catch on/ Just think, wed empty our prisons, leaving lots of free housing for needy people,wed be helping the environment,Oh YES!!YES!! YES!! Love, your homicidal Gem.!!XX
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 5:18am
Cat says:
Matt and Ox,
I’ve never heard of the “5 ations” until I read your post. Mine had one out of the 5. The home he was supposed to have was a room he was temporarily renting from someone. His reputation was one that wasn’t entirely revealed to me, which is of course, one of their little tricks.
I also didn’t know that about Google, but I’ll put that to use as well. I also do “private browsing” on Firefox when I’m on this site as well. I wasn’t aware you could even do that. I don’t know how much it hides, but it can’t hurt.
one step; I found this site just a few weeks ago and I can’t tell you how much it’s helped me. This is the only place I can come to and talk about what has happened and know that what I say here, stays here. There are a lot of warm, caring people here. LF is at the top of my gratitude list.
Someone said it best when it comes to getting through all the changes: At first it seems like it’s all bad days, then a good day creeps in. Suddenly, you realize it’s 50/50. There’s a good day, then a bad day, etc.. Then one day you wake up and it’s almost all good days with a bad one thrown in there now and then. I’m somewhere in all of that. I don’t think I had laughed in weeks until I came here.
Hugs!
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 1:00pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Dear I think your homicidal mania now is sometimes part of the healing process with us (at least some of us) believe me I had COMPLEX FANTASIES of the things I would to them, sigh, but you know, at the same time, I realized that thinking like this is COUNTER-PRODUCTIVe to PEACE.
“As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he” is what Jesus said about it. I don’t want to harbor or feed these terrible thoughts. I’m not criticising you about it, though, please believe me on that, cause I had some pretty HORRIBLE fantasy plans, some of which might have worked and let me get away with it, but I’m not that person who would not have regrets, guilt etc over doing something like that, so I found that turning off those thoughts when they came into my head (except the occasional jest) was the best method for me to get the BITTERNESS out of my heart!
The bible says that vengence belongs to God, and I figure He has more ways to accomplish that than I could ever dream of, so I am just going to go on trusting that “they will get what they deserve” SOONER OR LATER…and I may not even know what it is, but that’s okay too.
Cat, glad you are here, this site is usually pretty SANE and peaceful, though the occasional troll does come by, but they are usually quickly recognized for what they are. the way we try to handle them is to IGNORE them, and hit the “report abusive comment” and Donna waves her cyber wand and makes them go POOf!!! AND VANISH. without them getting the attention they crave. good system. Not engaging with them (after you see what they are about) is the best way to not give them attention.
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 2:31pm
Spirit40 says:
Oxy! Olle Olle Oxy! are you around… cant remember if I posted this with all the stress but I dont want to repost…..
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 3:11pm
Spirit40 says:
Yes I found it …. sorry…. I got your response…. =)
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 3:20pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, spirit, if I’m home I am usually around every little while, I have difficulty staying “on task” on things I dont’ enjoy–like for the last 3 days I have been cleaning my office and declutttering and filing. I do it for a little while and then want to throw up my hands and get frustrated and it is difficult to stay on task (I am a bit ADHD but it has never been a problem til the PTSD after the aircraft chars 5 years ago, now it is not as bad as it was then, but I work on a specific task til I get frustrated or bored with it, then move on to another task and rinse and repeat. Actually I do get a lot accomplished, but not in a specific order–so when I have to rest this old weary back, I sit down at the computer for a few minutes.
I type very fast, about as fast as I talk (but with more errors since the crash) and so I spend a few minutes here on LF then get back up for half an hour or an hour, do a few more chores, and rinse and repeat. In the evenings I am more on here because I don’t watch much TV, about 3-4 hours a week is more than enough.
My home office is starting to show some real lprogress so I am getting excited at “seeing the light at the end of the tunnel” and the rest of the house is in pretty good shape too, so my SPACE is in order which always makes me feel up and good. I’m not a “neat freak” but there is a level of clutter which sets me off on a cleaning frenzy until every corner is swept–this overcomes me about every 3-4 months, but I do try to keep clutter picked up and put away, but on some days if i don’t, that is okay too, I don’t beat myself up over it or lay down in depression for a week because some one came over and my house wasn’t spotless. WE LIVE here and it is our space so no one else can tell us how we “should” keep it if we are happy with it.
You could literally safely eat out of my egg donor’s toilets, and you know, I don’t feel guilty that my house is not to that level of INSANI-TERY…you can safely eat the food I offer you on the plates I offer it to you on, and that is good enough for me. If you can write your name in the dust on my furniture, that’s okay too, just don’t write the DATE!
I like my house to look nice FOR ME, not because someone else might think badly about it if I didn’t keep it like a furniture display for a home and garden magazine. There is no more GUILT making me do house work (I still don’t enjoy it much while I am doing it) I do it because and WHEN I want to, or think it needs it. Gosh, how liberating that feels!
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 4:34pm
geminigirl says:
Dear Oxy, It was meant in FUN!!LOL!! Of course I dont harbour these sorts of feelings, not for long anyway! I just thought id make you all laugh! Dont worry, Im not turning into a spath!!Love, gem.XX
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 4:39pm
DancingWarrior says:
Dear One-step-at-a-time–
Wow. Thank you.
“. . .all that glue that is him is acid waste and falling apart is a small price to pay for ridding yourself of the pain in your viens”
I think it is very hard to admit to myself that I was duped, foolish not to see the truth sooner, that I had a BABY with this person, slept next to him. Then I discount the things I read–that describe him perfectly–and convince myself “It can’t be!” He is NICE. And I go through all the “kindnesses” he has done for me. It is hard to admit that he “NEVER HAD ME” or never loved me, or never SAW me. How do you not feel like a complete IDIOT?
Dear Donna Andersen–
Thank you so much for the link about the addiction.
Yes, something is so screwed up in my brain as I torment myself, and keep going back for more. What the hell is wrong with me?
BTW, I have been separated physically for a year and a half. I think it’s a huge accomplishment that I got him out of the house. Changed the locks. Filed for divorce so I have legal protection against his moving in on a whim. The time away HAS helped me see him in a more real light as his security is unravelling without my presence. He is freaking out now and working hard to hook me back.
I just need to do that “one step off the road” like One-Day-at-a-time described.
P.S. I’d like to share a voice message he left last night in another post. The message seems a good reason why it would be wise for me avoid talking to him. I would be interested in others’ view of the message.
Thank you.
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 5:14pm
DancingWarrior says:
To continue my previous post, as I am caught in the headlights, “waiting for the car to run me over”–here is how easily I can doubt myself and feel guilt or responsibility to respond to my husband’s plea in a voice message.
He said,
“DW, I know you are having trouble with this. I’m trying to invite you because I want you in my life now. THere’s a lot of things going on. We’ve spent many years of life when many things were going on whether babies, or parents, a war, or whatever. We’re alone again and in a crisis, and there are still a lot of things going on in life. Just because 2 people are troubled or fighting or whatever, these things still go on. I’m inviting you in because it’s improtant stuff I don’t want to go through alone. If we can, that would be great. I want to be there with you. I want you to be with me, NOW. That’s what I’m kind of begging you to consider, really. Pleading with you. Be there with me. You only get this stuff once.”
I just don’t have that PUSH to get me to jump off the diving board. If he says “he can’t do this anymore” (try to work out issues), I melt in a puddle. If he wants me “to be there with him” I am distrustful and wary.
Justabouthealed–
I haven’t had that clear moment like you did on phone, when you saw him for what he was. Maybe I am not trusting my instincts? Clinging to false hope? Questioning if my perception is right, despite my therapist’s repeated urging to run for my life.
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 5:33pm
witsend says:
DancingWarrior,
His message to you is doing exactly what his intentions were when he left it. He has created doubt. Not the kind of doubt that you SHOULD be having…..Like doubting his sincerity and running for the HILLS….
But the other kind of doubt…..The questioning yourself kind of doubt….Like maybe he really does love me , blah, blah.
The WORST kind of doubt but the one he intended to create.
It is amazing but true that even though an S/P/N doesn’t feel the emotions we do they have an uncanny ability to “read us”. And they know exactly what they are doing.
It would be a very wise thing for you not to talk to him. Around here it is called N/C. (no contact) His message was
manipulating your thoughts to be about him.
Even listening to his messages or reading his emails or text is opening the door for contact (even if it is just “contact” in your head) If you really want to be able to heal from this relationship you first have to make the decision to go total N/C.
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 6:15pm
Spirit40 says:
Oxy! I agree totally… the P’s can be a little anal retentive/OCD with how much of a neat freak they can be…with the dust thing… it just comes back the next day now if you can write a novel in it then we may want to write the date it is published but….no one should judge anyone else unless their own hands are clean….. also no one can rent space in my head unless I lease it to them…. you had answered my post and I just wanted to make sure I did not post the same thing again since its on my mind… I am also being stalked here I think the P and P… reading my posts but if they have nothing better to do then … I am still going to feel what I feel and write what I want… its mine…my pain, my joy, my happiness… my most of all freedom!
Dancing Warriors therapists list is great! by the way..
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 6:34pm
Spirit40 says:
I agree witsend…..why should we doubt ourselves…mine would say stop making S-it up in your head….well.. I search for the truth , the pieces of the puzzle and I started putting them all together since the minute I met him almost 23 years ago… thank goodness for my elephant memory.. and the fact that I keep everything.. yes remember all the nasty things they have done to us, all the times they d&d and we run back to rescue them… who wants to be with someone that needs that much saving anyhow… I want to live and be somebody… just because they are incapable of keeping their lives together they leach onto ours… get your own dam life! We are not playing house!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 7:16pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Dear Dancing Warrior,
Although my latest experience with a spath was entirely on line and on phone, I have had a short relationship with an N who I met online (note to self: pattern developing) but had a relationship in RL with.
I also was with someone I thought of as an alcoholic when I was 20. Think now, that there was a whole lot more going on there.
So, I can relate a bit to having slept beside someone and how it is hard to believe that the same person whose skin has warmed yours REALLY DOESN’T/ CAN’T HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS IN MIND.
You probably wouldn’t have been there if there was no ‘kindness’ – genuine or mimicked, BUT YOU SURE WOULDN’T BE HERE IF THERE WASN’T ACID INVOLVED. Me neither.
Take it as a given that you have been duped; FEEL LIKE A COMPLETE IDIOT. It will not harm you. Can you say the same of being with him?
Fear of feeling a certain way is not worth the tremendous amount of energy holding it at bay requires. And I think we get to feel a bit more comfortable with uncomfortable judgments we place on ourselves and we can start to change them or let them change us. Part of my struggle daily is to keep my game face on for work. FOR CHRIST’S SAKE I TOLD THEM ALL ‘HE’ DIED. I wish I felt comfortable enough to tell my director, etc. what has happened, but I don’t. It would make everything much easier for me emotionally to have that freedom.
I am embarrassed as hell – not because I was duped – she’s a spath pro, but because I am now a mess. And I haven’t taken care of some things that REALLY needed my attention ‘cause I was too caught up in taking care of ‘him’, too caught on the anxiety and drama/trauma treadmill and buoyed by her stooopid spath optimism- oh yah, and the promise that ‘he’ would help me financially. Ha ha. Not so funny over here now.
I don’t know him. I don’t know your story. Here’s what I see on a moments glance, without any knowledge as to the tiggers behind his words, or his tone of voice. I CAN tell you, however, he is full of shit. If I am too raucus, just let me know, I’ll dial it back the next time.
DW, I know you are having trouble with this.
(I ‘KNOW’ you, I can see the real you, I want to heeeelp you)
I’m trying to invite you because I want you in my life now.
(Operative word: trying. NOT actually doing. Why ‘NOW’? What about the last years???? I am TRYING to do something cause I..I…I WANT something)
THere’s a lot of things going on.
(I should be cut some slack, I want you to feel sorry for me, ‘cause…blah, blah, blah)
We’ve spent many years of life when many things were going on whether babies, or parents, a war, or whatever.
(Babies are a thing ‘going on’?)
We’re alone again
(HA HA HA, ‘we’ are alone, noooo buddy, YOU are alone…DW has herself)
and in a crisis, and there are still a lot of things going on in life.
(that’s the way life is, and you are still a loser)
Just because 2 people are troubled or fighting or whatever, these things still go on. I’m inviting you in because it’s improtant stuff I don’t want to go through alone.
(ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!! This, we will recognize as the feel sorry for me phase of a temper tantrum)
If we can, that would be great. I want to be there with you. I want you to be with me, NOW.
(ouuu, the demanding phase of the temper tantrum)
That’s what I’m kind of begging you to consider, really. Pleading with you. Be there with me.
(I am now going to use the ‘pretty’/ whiney words, cause my demanding ones MAY not have workEd)
You only get this stuff once.
(My first resonnse is: THANK FUCKING GAWD!)
girl, keep going, you can get out of this. just keep taking steps.
all best,
one step
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 7:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear one step, and warrior woman!
One step, you are using my “trick” of INTERPRETING P-SPEAK INTO ENGLISH! Oh Yes, because the words don’t mean the same to them that they do to US! Good job One step! I am so glad I am not the only one here who is BI-LINGUAL AND SPEAKS BOTH P AND ENGLISH1 LOL ROTFLMAO
Warriior woman, his words are meant to hook you back in with the FOG—FER,OBLIGATION and BUILT!
So what is in this for YOU? Did he say anything about YOU? Nope, it is all about how he needs YOU with HIM….he gets YOU and you get ZILCH.
NC is NO contact, none, zip, zero, nada absolutely do not read his texts or e mails, or listen to his voice mails, do not answer the phone ( best to change e mail addresses and change phone numbers.–Do not give the number to anyone who will give it to him.) do not even talk to anyone ABOUT him except here.
Don’t let him know what you are doing, and do your best to have no information about him. The less even mental contact you ahve with him, the better.
The reason for NC is that it gives your head and heart time to start to heal, and without further injury from him or BS, and it helps your head clear up.
Sit down and write a list of all the nasty things he has done to you. Any time you start to feel “weak” or want him back, READ THAT LIST.
You will start to grieve, and that consists of a lot of different emotions changing hourly for a while, doubt, sadness, bargaining with the P or with God if he would just act right and then you could be so happy, and what if and so on, back and forth (google “greif process” and read about it, that is what we feel from the LOSS—in this case the loss of our fantasy relationship, because they are NOT capable of a real relationship any more than a tick on a dogs ear has a “relationsh[p” with the dog except as a parasite.
Hang on Warrior, I’m glad you chose that name! it is a good one, and remember—a warrior woman has to have courage, and courage is not being UNafraid, it is being scared chitless and still keeping on going doing what you know is right! ((((hugs))) and God bless you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 7:53pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Ox Drover,
One step bows deeply and accepts her place in the league of the multi-lingual –
I came across a spath on a webiste the other day, and outed him immediately. no hesitation. IF he was a good person his response to me, and in turn three other women who went after him IMMEDIATELY would have been different. I actually think ‘he’ was a sockpuppet of my spath, just cause of ‘his’ repsonse. BUT, MAYBE IT’S JUST, WAIT FOR IT………UNIVERSAL SPATH SPEAK! Kinda like Esperanto, but less irritating.
Danicing Warrior,
I was thinking about your name, too. If we are dancing we have one the war.
best,
one step
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Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 8:13pm
DancingWarrior says:
One-Step and OxDrover,
Your responses made me laugh!
I am thick, I admit, but I don’t understand NC.
I haven’t firmly decide to divorce him FIRST, so being unsure still in my head makes it hard to have no contact. I agreed to try couples therapy one last time, had two sessions, he cancelled this week’s says doesn’t trust therapist as he is “conflict oriented” and it’s all negative and all his fault so doesn’t want to go back. Here I am, unable to call it quits permanently YET.
How can this last therapy attempt help me in my decision?
He is asking “be there with me” but won’t do his share of work and put in an honest effort in therapy. Can I use this as leverage? I’ve told him I (not WE, but “I”) am not equipped with communication skills and we talk in circles and it’s not productive, that’s why “I” (not WE) need the help of a therapist to understand/resolve things.
He asked for “fast track” therapy last time. Therapist threw at him “projective identification” and said there you go, that’s your HW. Work that out then you can have a relationship. Now he is pissed at the therapist.
How do I use all this to help me DECIDE and feel I won’t look back that I had made a mistake and not left any stone unturned?
The only thing I can think is to ask him for MUTUALITY in this support he is asking for. Three guesses what his answer will be? (“I’ll humor you as long as I can reel you back in, so how do I pretend that I’m buying in and that you are my “treasure”" without actually having to do anyting real for you?”)
It is very hard to unravel a 20 yr marriage and shatter the good memories and image of him as a supportive husband, a good father, a good provider, reliable home maker. In many ways he was loyal, good, funny–sometimes hard for me to balance the intolerable things.
Note to self–there was a REASON why I decided to separate. There was a REASON why I felt I had to file for divorce.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 9:16pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Warrior,
No one can make up your mind but you. It is your life, and your decision. I will say this, however.
If you were doing heroin I would tell you 1) it is not good for you 2) it will ruin your life 3) it will be difficult to kick it 4) you can kick it if you want to, but you MUST WANT TO
You are an adult (I assume if you’ve been married 20 yrs) and it is up to you to decide how you run your life.
You cannot “fix” anyone else. You CAN fix yourself. It is your choice. I will support your free choice to choose your life, and what you do with it, but I will not approve of anyone abusing you, hurting you—even you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 30 November 2009 @ 10:07pm
tami says:
Okay…it seems that my latest issue is timely based on the recent posts. I heard from Biddy yesterday. She and my ex-S spent the Thanksgiving holiday with his mother. She told me that she blew up in front of his mother and told everything he had ever done. Funny, she told me that she had already done that back several months ago. She now says that he’s promised his Mommy that he’ll be good (43 year old man) and will treat her like she deserves to be treated. She says that she believes he will keep his word to his mother (?)
I did what you all instructed. I encouraged her to come back to lovefraud. She told me that she had a female friend who was a therapist and that she had discussed his behavior with her and that she said that he really didn’t sound like a sociopath to her…just a man with insecurity issues with a higher than normal sex drive possibly a sex addict who uses sex from other women as a comforting “blanket” when he felt insecure. Tells me that IF she even talked to this therapist that she ONLY focused on the cheating aspect of his personality. Forget all the other signs and symptoms.
However, my own private therapist told me point blank that he was a sociopath. I was totally honest with my therapist…honesty is essential if you expect to get help! I didn’t bash my ex…if anything, I DEFENDED him for being a wondeful husband that loved me more than life itself and that suddenly turned into another person altogether…within a matter of hours! I needed help in understanding that. The therapist started to tell me other things about his personality and actions that I hadn’t revealed. You could have knocked me over with a feather. When, I confirmed that my therapist was describing him to a “T”…he simply stated that my ex was a sociopath and directed me to LF as well as providing me with other materials to read.
All of you have heard my story over and over and over again. In my heart I KNOW what he is yet I allow myself to doubt my own judgement as well as the profressionals and great brave people here on LF who have done multiple backward flips to help me understand! All it takes is ONE other suggestion as to what his problem may be, and I begin to doubt my own gut. I’ve read and educated myself endlessly on the behavior of sociopaths…it’s ALL there…so why do I STILL have doubts. And, furthermore WHY am I obsessed with the need to PROVE what he is? Why do I even care? Was it because no one had ever degraded me or humiliated me in the fashion that he did. I honestly feel like I was raped over and over and over again sexually, emotionally and financially. I have to ask myself what am I expecting to gain from all this? Is it credibility? Justice? Revenge? WHY does this continue to haunt me? I feel NO love for him whatsoever! I honestly HATE the man and I have NEVER ever hated anyone! Am I on a mission to destory his life as he did mine even though I’ve been blessed with rebuilding it far above what it ever was? Am I crazy?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:06am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami.
QUOTE:
I honestly feel like I was raped over and over and over again sexually, emotionally and financially.
THAT’s BECAUSE YOU WERE.
QUOTE:
I have to ask myself what am I expecting to gain from all this? Is it credibility? Justice? Revenge?
I think, Tami, you are coming to think about now, the question I asked you a while back..what are YOU getting out of this relationship with BIDDY? Is it to “save” her—the woman who “ruined” your marriage, the woman he “threw you over for?” Isn’t it odd that you are so involved in trying to convince HER that he is a sociopath?
QUOTE: WHY does this continue to haunt me? I feel NO love for him whatsoever! I honestly HATE the man and I have NEVER ever hated anyone!
Tami, “hate” is not the opposite of “love”—cause you are still thinking about him, INDIFFERENCE, just not caring a rat’s behind about him or what he does or what happens to him is the opposite of “love”—you are still “inviolved” with him if you are actively “hating” him. In fact, you are still CONTACT with him in communicating with her, with hearing all he is up to, all the things he is doing to her.
QUOTE: Am I on a mission to destory his life as he did mine even though I’ve been blessed with rebuilding it far above what it ever was?
I think the answer to that is YES! I think maybe somehow you have decided that by convincing this woman he left you for that he is a sociopath and “helping” her escape, you are vindicating to yourself that he is what he IS.
Tami there is such a thing as a two-abuser relationship, where the DRAMA triangle reigns supreme. They play the drama triangle.
Right now, her purpopse is to DEFEND him against all the insults that the PERSECUTOR—YOU is slinging at the poor baby, she is rescuing him from YOU–proving to you that she got this good man and you lost him.
The musical chairs will change again, though, and he will start treating her badly, then she will run to you again to rescue her, and when she is done it will move on to the next round.
Over the holidays she picked another rescuer—his mother—mommie became the “police person” to make “baby boy” straighten up, and Biddy is just “sure” he will do this for his “mommie”—well, we know how that is going to play out don’t we?
NO YOU ARE NOT CRAZY, TAMI!!! But by staying engaged with this whole freaking dysfunctional triangle game of “save Biddy” when in truth, Biddy not only doesn’t want to be saved, Biddy is playing these dysfunctional games.
Think about it. She was a married woman—had an affair with him—-took him away from you in 3 short weeks after meeting him—does that sound RATIONAL TO YOU? Of course not, you are doing the same thing with Biddy that you did with him, you are FILLING IN THE BLANKS, and thinking how she is complaining of being abused —but let me tell you, the person who is an abuser who gets hooked into a two-abuser :”gasoline and fire” relationship is having just as much “fun” in the situation as he is! they are JUST AS DISORDERED.
Not all “abusive” relationships are ONE sided abuse, my bet in this one is that the “fit” she threw at mommie-in-law’s house was a doozie.
The tension builds up, then the person playing the game of musical chairs that is in the “victim” seat, rebels and throws a fit, then the persecutor person becomes the victim for a while, and then when the tension builds up, he throws a fit and guess what, she is right back in the victim chair, and then she will run to either her MIL to be her rescueer or back to you.
Right now, she called to “crow” about how she “showed him” and how MIL is going to keep him in line.
I ho0ped at the first when Biddy came here that she was “saveable” that she might truly be a victim, but when you look at the history of the entire relationship, she is I believe a PSEUDO-VICTIM, just a co-abuser who is masking as a “poor victim” and loves the sympathy, loves the DRAM and loves proving to you how great a man she got.
She doesn’t have much of a moral compass, she stole this man froom you, while both he and she were married. Strike one. NOW SHE IS COMING TO YOU BEGGING YOUR EAR AND EMPATHY CAUSE HE IS UNKIND TO HER— personally I think that is a LOT OF GALL!
Tami, I know I sound like a broken record, but GET OUT OF THIS DYSFUNCTIONAL MESS, GET AS FAR AWAY FROM IT AS POSSIBLE, NC WITH BIDDY AND NC WITH HIJM. QUIT TRYING TO BE MENTALLY AND EMOTIONALLY CONNECTED WITH THIS COUPLE. They are out of your life.
It doesn’t matter what Biddy’s therapist friend or ANYONE ELSE SAYS HIS DIAGNOSIS IS, this man is a TOXIC LOSER and any one with one eye and half sense can see this.
He is not treating her any better than he treated you,he will NEVER TREAT ANYONE BETTER—EVICT THEM BOTH FROM YOUR MIND. It sounds to me, frankly, that THEY DESERVE EACH OTHER. I think she is a cluster B histrionic personality disorder and she THRIVES ON THE DRAMA.
You can’t convince her he is an S because she doesn’t want to believe it and everytime this round of drama goes on, she gets vindication and reward—GO NO CONTACT WITH THEM BOTH. WHATEVER IT TAKES. THEN QUIT THINKING ABOUT THEM. THIS IS GETTING BIZZARE! It certainally isn’t healthy for YOU.
((((hugs))) and my prayers for you Tami, now get down on your knees and say “Thank you God that this man and that woman are out of my life and I have a loving husband who treats me well”
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 9:16am
Cat says:
Dear Dancing,
“And I don’t have the courage to leave. I fear I’ll fall apart without him. I believe that I NEED him to survive. I believe I depend on him, even though I know he has not offered emotional nurturing I want.”
Part of the game they play is to get you to believe this very thing. I really felt that lump back in my stomach when I read the above and KNOW how it feels to feel this way. I had a lot of health issues at one time. The medical community thought I was going to need a heart transplant. Did this make him wake up and be more compassionate? NO. He pretty much kept doing exactly what he wanted. Make no mistake about one thing: they can, will and DO put themselves first and the circumstances don’t matter.
My ex tries to use my son as a way to get back in. Doesn’t work.
He’s got a good portion of my family believing I am the bad one. Doesn’t work.
He cries at the drop of a hat wanting pity. Doesn’t work.
He uses our son as an excuse as to why we should be back together. Doesn’t work.
He insists I’m still in love with him and don’t know it. I just need to open my heart. Doesn’t work.
I could go on and on, but you get the drift. I operate, for the most part, on LOGIC these days, where he’s concerned because emotions are a gateway for him to do what he wants. I give my heart to those I truly trust, my children. That makes him even madder because it shows I DO have a heart, just not for him. STILL doesn’t matter!
Please keep coming back to LF. This site is amazing and has helped me so much. Everyone here has a similar story, I am finding, and is there for you when you need them.
Sending strength and healing,
Cat
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 9:52am
ErinBrock says:
I’m having trouble the past few days…I just need to rant!
I spent yesterday in my hormonal tears state…..
I HATE MY PARENTS!!!!!!
They are the most subtlely packaged, blind, fake, world pleasing ignorants on the planet!
(okay sorry….i’ts the one day of the month I need to hide under a rock!)
I know my feelings are real, I know they are there, I know the did what they did to me and participated in my ‘destruction’ with the S…….and I’m telling you…..I”M FUCKING SICK OF the lack of loyalty and covert behaviors.
I’m sick of the suble games, I’m sick of the off balance feelings of family vs the world…..i’m sick of thinking of them, I’m sick of how this affected my whole other family…….I FUCKING HATE THEM!!!!!
I hope they rot, I hope they die a slow painful death, and I hope I get notified so I can appear and say…….
OH, SUCH IS LIFE!!!!!!!
I’m feeling very vindictive this week……I want the S and parents to suffer…..I know in my heart, they will/are….but I WANT TO SEE IT!!!!
I’m angry at what they do to my kids, I’m angry about them sending a fucking card for TG and writing….whatever you guys are doing enjoy……
WTF….WHATEVER YOU GUYS ARE DOING??????? Your the parents/Gparents….and you have NO clue how your ‘family’ is spending TG??
For YEARS….I entertained the whole family…extended family up at my home…….everyone stayed here….22 of them…..for a week……My expense, my cooking, my providing activities, my cleaning, my shopping, my EVERYTHING……I get sick…divorced and I become invisible to the lot of them!!!!
Shows how shallow it all was……
AND I DON”T WANT SHALLOW in my life!
I have made great efforts to eliminate shallow…..and I am left with a thread of family shallows……
Why do I put so much creed in the word family? Family means nothing….it’s a word…..thats it
Last year (in the HELL of my life)….the card read….May your home be filled with warmth and tradition….
WTF….WARMTH….I have no money to heat the fucking home……..
TRADITION….WTF…..for 28 years……my tradition was with a man who abused me…….
WARMTH/TRADITION….
I have to eliminate them from my world….they are toxic to me….to much water has flown under the bridge and I hate them…..there is no going back, without me putting those all too familiar blinders on….I can’t deny what they did to me/us…..and continue……
Each little scratch of the scab…..
I think, to show solidarity to my feelings……I’m going to write out a Christmas ‘informational letter’ and send it to them in a fucking EASTER CARD!!!!
I used to send out the annual Christmas letter……and I haven’t since I got sick……
Last year I wrote a vial one…..of which I was greatly encouraged NOT to send…..and I didn’t…..
I think it’s time to write another…..and at least contimplate exposing the parents behaviors to all thier cherished friends…..
I won’t send it…..It might be good for me to release……
Thanks for the rant……I’m taking a deep breath!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:53am
one_step_at_a_time says:
ErinBrock,
Towanda girl. Towanda.
we build the space for the ‘family’ we deserve. and if it means we kick out the blood relatives first to make space, so be it.
I have worked intensively around family issues – and just this last few days realize that my father’s personality is permanently disordered. He took something from me, and when I am back on my feet – I am going to sue him.
one step
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 12:17pm
witsend says:
Erin,
Take another DEEP BREATH…..Now exhale….
This card you opened was a trigger for you. And it triggered you big time. It brought all your feelings to the surface again.
Feel the feelings….Write them down. That is not necessarily a bad thing to do. Write down things you might never say outloud. Even if you write in a letter form that you dont send.
I did that many years ago. Wrote a letter to my father that I didn’t send. A therapist I was going to reccomended that I write it (but not send it) It was somewhat validating for me to write it. We have to get the feelings out in some way.
After you feel some of the feelings your feeling right now…..
Think about if you HAD spent thanksgiving with your parents……You know you would also be dealing with the AFTERMATH of that right now.
Instead you can think back of this past thanksgiving with fonder memories spending it with people that appreciate and love you for who you are.
Spending holidays with family seems like the normal thing to do. However sometimes when the family isn’t “normal” it is really best to find the alternative…..And spend this time with good people. And you did that! We CAN choose who to spend our time with.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 12:29pm
witsend says:
witsend,
I need some advice. As some of you know I am currently seeing a counselor. I am paying out of pocket and although it is affordable, I struggle to pay my bills as it is, and the winter is the worst time of all.
I would like to actually get something out of my sessions with her and be able to ASK for what it is that I really need.
What I really need right now is to learn how to deal with every day situations.
The daily stuff is what troubles me most of all. If I feel in “danger” during a crisis, I will handle it as I see fit. It is during those times that I really do need to have my “wits” about me.
But living in the same house with a almost 17 year old that doesn’t live in reality can be exhausting.
Interestingly enough it is this small STUFF that drains me…..And when I am drained from dealing with the “small” stuff I find myself unprepared to deal with the BIG stuff…..
Sometimes I think it is all part of his “grand plan” to drain me.
The stuff I am talking about is the whole right/left, black/white, up/down, thing…..That they do.
I could say the simplest of things…..He is sneezing alot….So I might say: “Oh you might want to take some allergy meds”.
He will say: “I don’t have allergies.” (he does) and was Rx some meds by the doctor.
His allergies affect his sinuses real bad….So by not taking the meds that help to dry his sinuses out he has alot of drainage in his throat. So eventually that of course then leads to hacking and coughing and often to a doctors visit later.
Just everyday simple things. I have chosen to ignore many of these things and NOT say anything. Let him suffer from the allergy symptoms. HOWEVER of course in the end when he gets sick because he has ignored the symptoms I do have to take him to the doctor.
These kinds of situations are my DAILY living with him. He ignores REALITY on a daily basis as it isn’t his reality. If he says he doesn’t have allergies then he DOESN’T.
I have even tried not doing “small talk” (at all) because it is in the small talk that we have the whole he says black I say white situations to begin with. However he seems to “see” this as having more control (as now I am a mute mother so I must agree he doesn’t have allergies) and its almost as if he goes further into his delusional world.
And when I do HAVE to deal with him on an important issue…..It becomes even more difficult. Because I let the small ones go…..
So what I need out of therapy is to know how to behave myself in this daily grind.
Is this called cognitive behavioral therapy? Or something else?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 1:33pm
witsend says:
Oh by the way….Did you see that I posted to myself above?
It is no WONDER that I need therapy….I am talking to myself…DUH. I can do that w/o typing….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 1:38pm
henry says:
lmaorotf – pass the brownies – oh Wit Wit Wit
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:05pm
witsend says:
henry,
I DIDN’T even eat the brownies & look at me! I’m a wreck.
I have lost it for sure….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:13pm
henry says:
oh my it feels so good to laugh.! who needs a sociopath when I got you guys?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:17pm
witsend says:
henry,
will you still talk to me when I get booted off LF for asking myself for my own advice? I must value my own opinion…Huh? THAT would fall into socio behavior I would think.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:23pm
henry says:
Sure I will Wit – if I don’t kicked off LF before you. if we do we will start our own site – let see what should we call it?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:34pm
tami says:
Thank you, OxDrover…I LIKE you! You’re every bit as frustrated with me as I have been with Biddy in the past! I realized that you’re using the SAME logic on me that I’ve been trying to use on her for 3 years! And, God knows, I don’t want to be as ignorant as she is. LOL! I get it, I finally get it! I’m quite pleased to announced that ignored all her emails today. She has access to every online means of contacting me and sent messages to the all. The last ones were expressions of her deep concern that I was upset with her? She asked what was wrong over and over again that she had not heard back from me. At that point, I WAS a little tempted to write and tell her that I had left her at the carnival she could spend the rest of her life riding the roller coaster life but I had grown tired of the merry-go-round. BUT I DIDN’T DO IT! YAY FOR ME! It feels like the weight of the world has been lifted off my shoulders.
I got up off my rear today, went to the health food store, got my nails done and a great new hair style! I gave myself a Tami day instead of a BIDDY day! And, I loved it!!!
I do have to disagree with you in a couple of areas: I REALLY don’t care that she broke up my marriage or stole my husband as you put it…I KNOW that’s the greatest thing that could have ever happened! And, if you knew me as a person, you would understand that I’ve never truly ever hated anyone but I do hate him and that sort of bugs me. I honestly wouldn’t care if the man feel over dead tomorrow! I’ve NEVER felt that way about ANYONE and it makes me feel a bit badly about myself. I was married once before to a very abusive alcholic…he beat me for a sport but I could never bring myself to hate him. He cheated on me repeatedly, too, and I knew it but I was afraid to leave him because he told me that he’d kill me and I believed him But I NEVER hated him and when he died, I grieved for all that he could have been if only he could have stopped drinking. Alcohol turned him into someone that I didn’t know. That’s when he cheated and that’s when he beat. Otherwise, you couldn’t ask for a better person. He just could NOT get his addiction to alcohol under control. So, I’m a fairly forgiving person. He was an abuser and he disrespected me badly but still yet, he wasn’t deceitful…I KNEW exactly what I had on my hands.
I think that’s why I feel SO much disgust and hatred toward my ex that is now with Biddy. The deceit! But, you’re right…three’s a crowd and I want out of the triangle. I’m going to block her from my facebook and myspace accounts. I’ll just have to ignore any emails I receive from her because my email account is associated with a lot of business connections. She’ll eventually give up and go away if I continue to ignore…I hope!
Thanks for your brutal honestly OxDrover…that’s exactly how I am when I’m trying to make a point. You made yours. I’ve been such an IDIOT! But, then again, haven’t we all at some point in our lives?
Witsend…your name itself suggests that you are capable of answering your own posts so don’t worry about it. We all do strange things when we reach our wits end! LOL!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 7:50pm
DancingWarrior says:
Dear Cat,
I appreciate your story. It really is very helpful to hear encouragement.
Speaking of courage–I wanted to tell a story about my mother’s lack of courage and how I am repeating her actions almost the same.
My father was explosive, verbally abusive, had affairs, treated her like a doormat. My early childhood memory was that I was so scared “my parents would get divorced”, seeing my mother run out the door crying after him, “don’t leave!” acting like a helpless victim.
When I was an adult I came home and found the house in disorder and mom’s slippers strewn about the house. It looked wrong. She called to say she was spending the night at the military headquarters (dad was an officer) because he had hit her and she went to file a complaint. I felt good for her. I hated his guts and also feared him. I was rooting for her to leave the bastard.
Then, I see him the next day pleading with her, convincing her not to leave him, and she totally fell for it. Later, after I left home, during the hardship of war, mom hinted that he was a monster to her rather than sticking together through a hard time. Bastard.
And me? It seems I married the same man, except the affairs. He is charismatic, life of the party, everyone thinks he’s charming. He tried pleading to get back together. He tried intimidation and threats and aggreession. I have protected myself by taking steps to keep him away.
But I hate myself for being weak like my mother. Not just saying “Hit the road Jack, don’t you come back no more!” Why can’t I say that?
I still have a couples therapy appt. next week. Deep down I know I am wasting my time and my life, but I can’t bring myself to just cut it off and be done. I am waiting for some definitive proof or knowledge that it’s the right thing. Or afraid of the abyss of the unknown and relying on myself. Or both.
I have not erased the old “programming” that he is my friend or protector or family, thus the belief that I need him.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:09pm
witsend says:
Henry,
Well you know, since I do talk to myself….I can ask me, myself, and I, what sounds like a good name for the new group?
We can’t come up with anything??? Lol..
WE BETTER stay with this group! We can’t even come up with a name.
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami!!!
I am so glad I didn’t have to get the cyber “shot gun” out, I was afraid the skillet wasn’t going to do the job! I am glad, too that I didn’t pith you off, cause all of my “preaching” was cause I luvs ya gal!
I just want to straighten out one more thing, though, you talk about your first “alcoholic” husband, it was NOT THE ALCOHOL that made him beat you—it wasn’t the “addiction” that was the problem IT WAS HIS CHOICES—my Uncle Monoster beat his wife and kids brutally, held them at gun point for days, did his mother that way too, but he was “soooo sweet” when he was sober—the thing I have come to understand is that ALCOHOLISM is an “excuse” for being a psychopath drunk when you would like to be one sober but don’t have the balls to be one when you are sober.
Alcohol DIS inhibits the social controls we have. When I have been drunk (very rarely and decades ago) I am the cutest little thing you ever saw, I SING and DANCE and think I can entertain the world. I would love to be able to SING and able to DANCE but I sound like a cat with her tail under a rocking chair when I sing, and I dance like a one legged man!
Alcohol however dis-inhibits me so I THINK I CAN DANCE. The alcoholic or the drunk is WHAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE SOBER—sober i would LIKE TO SING AND DANCE but I know I can’t so I don’t, but alcohol lets me dis-inhibit my inhibitions and my good sense to know I can’t do either.
Same with MEAN BEHAVIOR—if you want “courage” to be an abusive ASS then alcohol will give it to you.
Saying he was a nice guy when he was sober is like saying “he is a nice guy when he is not robbing banks or killing people”—no one, even Ted Bundy was killing people 24/7 or raping people, sometimes they “act nice” but they ARE BAD.
I don’t[ blame you for “hating” Biddy’s husband, and I KNOW you aren’t mad at her for taking him, remember when I told you she is yourT FRIEND and you should send her a THANK YOU card for “taking” him away from you. SHE DID YOU A FAVOR SWEETIE and you and I both know that!
You are a sweet sweet woman, but you need to take a lesson from Granny Oxy and quit giving EVERYONE IN THE WORLD the freaking BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT!!!!
Now you quit it right this minute, as I used to say to my kids, DON’T MAKE ME STOP THIS CAR! LOL ((((HUGS)))) AND ALWAYS MY PRAYERS FOR YOU! Good for you for having a TAMI DAY, and from now on December first is TAMI DAY!
I suspect that Biddy will come back from time to time, and I just suggest NC and all that entails, you know the routine! Personally, I think they ahve the perfect marriage! For them!
‘
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:30pm
henry says:
how about ‘Wits and Tits’ or ‘Twits’ I better get off here before I get booted for sure…
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:33pm
witsend says:
Oh no….Your gonna get in trouble as the lady with the skillet is here….
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:43pm
tami says:
OxDrover…yeah, I guess I’ve often felt that my first husband was a socio,too, after learning about them after the last ex. I was SO very young when I was married to him and knew nothing about sociopaths at the time. It’s just that he’s the father of my son and my stepson and he’s been dead since 1993. He committed suicide. The boys were hurt and anytime we speak of his “problem”, we refer to him as being born a “broken” persson. He never beat on the boys but they saw things they shouldn’t. I just don’t really see the point in going back now and thinking about that he, too, was probably a sociopath or possibly having the boys (now grown men) have to know this. He’s been dead and out of our lives for a very long time. I was using his outrageous behavior towards me in an attempt to let you know that I don’t hate easily. It’s actually a NEW emotion for me where people are concerned. I DO hate a few tasks that I have to do…like grocery shopping!!!
Okay, Henry is out of line…what are we going to do about it? LOL! Actually, your comment was funny in a rather distasteful kind of way. I’m up for letting you get away with it if everyone else is. We’ll find a way to make you pay sooner or later! LOL!
Gosh, darn, folks! Can you tell that I’m in GREAT spirits tonight? And, no I haven’t had any “spirits”, either, just my vitamins!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 8:59pm
OxDrover says:
Henry:
BOINK!@ BOINK! I told you that you were a baaaaad boy! BOINK!!!
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Tuesday, 1 December 2009 @ 11:52pm