ASK DR. LEEDOM: Is there any new research on sociopaths and parenting?
PDF I recently received this note from a reader in Ireland:
The reason I’m writing today is I have a friend who is in the same position has just recently had contact from her 2.5yr old son’s sociopathic father, looking for access.
She is learning all about what having a sociopathic father actually means, has read the book (Just Like His Father?), but is still unsure whether to allow it or not.
What do you think? Any new research? Anything that shows clearly kids do better without contact?
I do not know of any new research on this topic. We previously discussed two papers parents should be aware of; one concerns antisocial fathers and the other concerns antisocial mothers.
Antisocial Fathers
The common belief is that children are better off having a relationship with a father even if that father is a sociopath. In a landmark study, the only of its kind, researchers proved this is not the case. This study examined the children of 171 fathers high in sociopathic traits and 167 fathers low in sociopathic traits. In the two groups taken together, the presence of the father and his caretaking behavior weakly correlated with less antisocial behavior in children. However, when the two groups were examined separately a startling finding emerged. When fathers who were low in sociopathic traits were present in their children’s lives, children did substantially better. When fathers high in antisocial behavior were present in their children’s lives, children did much worse, especially if the father lived with them. The risk of conduct disorder in the children of antisocial fathers doubled when the fathers resided with the children.
“When highly antisocial fathers reside with the family, children experience a double whammy of risk for antisocial behavior. They are at genetic risk because antisocial behavior is highly heritable. In addition, the same parents who transmit genes also provide the child’s rearing environment. We found that a father’s antisocial behavior accounted for his children’s behavior problems independent of any genetic risk he may have imparted, particularly when he resided with the family and spent time taking care of the children.”
-Sara R. Jaffee, Ph.D. and Colleagues
Antisocial Mothers
There has been one scientific study of mothering and sociopathic traits. In this study, researchers linked scores on the sociopathy scale of a common personality test (MMPI-2) taken during pregnancy to later mothering behavior. This test is often given to people undergoing custody evaluation so it is important to know about this study. High sociopathy scores are linked to problem parenting in six areas:
1. Lack of warmth
2. Passivity/neglect
3. Harsh/abusive discipline
4. Inconsistent/ineffective discipline
5. Poor monitoring and supervision
6. Aggressive values
In this study, mothers completed questionnaires and their parenting behavior was observed during two laboratory tasks. Direct observation is very important, because it is difficult to understand sociopathic parenting without first hand observations. During the observation periods, mothers high in trait sociopathy were observed to show a lack of warmth and to use harsh and ineffective discipline. The ineffective discipline of at risk children is just as important in the development of sociopathy as is lack of warmth. Ineffective discipline does not enable a child to learn impulse control. Lack of warmth impairs Ability to Love. The aggressive values cherished by sociopathic mothers also impair a child’s moral development. It follows that sociopathic mothers pass on the disorder to their children by poisoning The Inner Triangle.
Other considerations
Remember all the research can only give you guidelines. Sociopathy is a spectrum and it can be difficult to tell just how affect a mother or father is. Below is a list of questions you can ask yourself when considering a child’s involvement with an antisocial parent. It is my hope that those outside the family making decisions on behalf of children will consider this list as well.
1. How likely is sociopathic parent (SP) to encourage the child to form a bond only to disappear, abandoning the child?
2. How sadistic or potentially sexually abusive is SP? Is there a risk of parental kidnapping?
3. How likely is it that SP will use child to harm others- get new relationship by playing parent of the year?
4. How likely is it SP will use child to harm other parent?
5. Will SP teach antisocial attitudes to child? eg. suspicion of others and pleasure in aggression or getting over on the system?
6. Will SP expose child to other antisocial adults?
7. Will SP be overly permissive and not set limits or neglect the child- Put child in front of TV and not feed him or help him toilet etc.?
8. Will SP induce fear and guilt if the child does not do what SP wants?
9. Will SP be intoxicated infront of child? Will SP drive while intoxicated with child in the car?
10. Is SP doing illegal things and at risk for arrest?
11. Is SP so disordered that to give the child the idea SP is normal will harm the child’s view of humanity?
12. Is SP preoccupied with weapons or own them?
13. Is SP partaking of sexually explicit or violent media and at risk to expose child to these?
14. Will SP attempt to alienate healthy parent?
15. Is SP in treatment or has SP taken parenting classes?
16. Will SP dump child off on other relatives or baby sitter during supposed parenting time?
17. Will SP spend “support money” buying the child’s loyalty by purchasing toys? or taking child places SP cannot in reality afford if SP was supporting child as SP should?
If you can add to the list please do so. I am also looking for your examples of the above.
Reference List
Jaffee S, Moffitt T, Caspi A, Taylor A. Life with (or without) father: The benefits of living with two biological parents depend on the father’s antisocial behavior. Child Development [serial online]. January 2003;74(1):109-126.
Bosquet M, Egeland B. Predicting parenting behaviors from Antisocial Practices content scale scores of the MMPI-2 administered during pregnancy. Journal of Personality Assessment [serial online]. February 2000;74(1):146-162.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
sadie says:
Thank you OxDrover. I have checked out Dr. Leedoms site. I will read her book. One book that was a real eye opener for me was “Why does he do that?” by Lundy Bancroft. It really cemented the fact that abusive people dont change, no matter what you do. Up until then, I kept on thinking, “maybe if I do this, he will get better!” My ex has a dual diagnoses- not only substance abuse issues, but also anxiety and antisocial disorders. He uses his charisma and “poor me” story to get money and housing from women. HIs ex-wife warned me, and I ignored her because I was so special and understood him and too smart. HA! Then, I got pregnant and the abuse began, mostly psychological and financial but once physical when I was pregnant. I went from being an independent financially strong funny women, to a scared shell of my former self. I have great empathy for Sandra Boss as well. I understand why she stayed so long and understand how strong she is.
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sadie says:
Also, I want to mention something about children with no contact with their sociopathic parent. My daughter used to have supervised access to her father, now she doesnt see him anymore. I think I will worry about the “no father” affects on her. Part of me thinks I’ll be single until she is an adult. And I do want her to see what a normal relationship looks like. She has wonderful male relatives and I have wonderful male friends. But nothing day to day. She sees that my primary relationship is with her, and sometimes I wonder if that is really healthy. One time, a male friend (totally platonic and married) was joking with me and started to tickle me in jest. My daughter started to cry in response to seeing me laugh and push him away. I wonder what was going on in her little mind.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sadie,
Is there any chance she could have been molested by her fatgher or anyone else? Sometimes a way that children’s boundaries are over stepped is “tickling” games.
I am not sure how old she is, but you might ask her why she cried when your friend tried to tickle you and you laughed and pushed him away. Ask her who did that to her.
Tickling “all in good fun” can be actually taken to the level of abuse or pre abuse and if it is done at all it should be a 1 or 2 second thing, and not go on for minutes or “decades” or invade any of the child’s private areas. Few people enjoy being tickled or goosed.
I would encourage your daughter to have as frequent an interaction with good male friends and realtives. when I was a slingle parent, and my kids had no interaction with their father, I had a friend who had custody iof his little girl so we swapped being with the other’s kids, and mentors, we actually were almost an extended family for four years while I lived next door to him. It worked out great. He was a good role model and did things with my boys, and I did “girl things” with his daughter. Maybe you could join Parents without Partners too that is usually agood group where you might meet someone you could trade with and “role model” for each other’s kids. Or do things together with his kids and yours so your daughter can see a man interacting positively with his children and her.
Good luck with your daughter! and God bless.
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sadie says:
I think you are very perceptive and bring up several good points. I remember being “tickled” by her father alot and he would never stop when I demanded it. When I was really pregnant, it even reduced me to tears because I couldnt fight him off. Perhaps when she was a baby, she witnessed some of that. I doubt that she was molested, but it is possible that he physically and emotionally abused her when I wasnt around. she showed no behavioral signs of molestation. She did start to show signs of expressive verbal abuse towards me(saying inappropriate swear words etc) and thats when I left her father. He has been supervised since she was 2 years old (she is only 4 now and hasnt seen him in 6 months). I did ask her why she cried when I was tickled and she couldnt articulate a reason. So I just said, “Mommy’s okay, your okay”.
I occasionally play tickle games with my daughter and give her complete control over stop and go. She enjoys it and I think it teaches her that stop means stop. I also tell her that she can say no and stop to grown ups . She sees that I respect her and I see her self-esteem shine.
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kim frederick says:
My Dad was a consumate tickler. His horsey bites, that squeeze right above the knee, sent me into a frenzy.
Once, when I was probably about seven, he got ahold of me, and I was squeeling, screaming, crying, stop, stop, stop…..and my female siamese cat, (who never had kittens, and who slept with me every night) jumped out of a closit where she had been sleeping, and tore his arms into hamburger meat….she was protecting me!
To my Dad’s credit, she was not punished, and in fact was sort of esteemed in his mind. He knew she was protecting me.
She was the first cat in my life and I have always had a great respect for those of the feline persuation. I’m just not right if I don’t have a cat.
Now I have Pinky-doodle, my yellow tabby rescue cat, with googly eyes, and a crinkled ear……and now He’s getting fat!
Probably a result from almost starving as a kitten.
I know this is kind of off topic, but just wanted to check in.
I’m reading all the posts, but think I’m resisting getting into anything really heavy, on an emotional level, right now.
Glad to see so many new folks, here. Welcome! Really liked the article, Steve. Food for thought. I’m thinking…….
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sadie,
Your tickle game with her with her having the power to say STOP and have it respected is I think showing her that you respect her boundaries and that she has a right to set boundaries. So many times adults do onot thinkk a kid has a right to set boundaries, but they do, and they should learn to set them at a young age.
I am so glad that he has not seen her, and Dr. Leedom’s searches for research results show that a kid is better off with NO father than a bad one. Your daughter is fortunate to have you for a mother. You come across as a very understanding and nurturing parent. Good for you!!!!
Kim, taking a break now and then from the “getting into heavy” stuff is a good thing, I think. It lets you digest what you have taken in….sort of like eating a meal, digesting it, then later eathing another meal. If we continually eat, we never get to digest what we have taken in. I think that “digesting” what we have taken in, putting it to work for us is a much better way to “get it.” Good for you!
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Isabell says:
Dear Matt, and OxDover,
This has been the first time I’ve had a chance to be on line since the last post. PLEASE KNOW… your tough love is NOT wasted on me.
There is a delicacy in managing the removal of my oldest. Number 1, the law. There wasn’t a signed contractual agreement when she moved back in. My rules, My house are met with toxic waste (accusation, devaluing, character assasination infront of my younger three. Furthermore, she works for a legal department and is well aware of the power she has. Aside from the legal power, she’s threatened (when I express that their stay here has exhausted it’s welcome) to bring in the younger three’s father (whom she hates) to threaten the security of the younger three, if I even think about threatening her security (a place to live).
Since her last episode, she’s in the “honeymoon” period. She’s acting as if nothing happened. Offering to pay a little extra in rent to offset the previous months high utility bills (not near as much as if she were paying the proper amount), and her lazy husband has actually cleaned up the back-yard that their dog made a mess of. They keep to themselves, and stay out of sight — for now.
The damange of her influence has already spead like a cancer. My level headed 15 year old is demonstrating the same bullying; threatening to call her Dad (whom she hates) to expose me when I set boundaries and refuse to be abused. The involvement of him, in any way, shape or form will be magnified a thousand fold. He thrives on drama. His family thrives on drama. I have been total NC for months. He tries to hook me, and I don’t respond. My oldest and now my teen-ageer threatening me to involve him, is a threat of…You cater to our needs, wants, and whims or you will be dragged back to court, again, and again, and again… It’s like they’d shoot themselves in the foot to spite me.
I’ve been told that both harbor a great amount of recentment toward me for not being stronger, and more protective then the legal system. Since my hands are legally tied behind my back, in their eyes, I gave up. And, as such, they no longer respect me. My war is not with might, but details. My day in court to present my weapons has not come. All they see is a passivity. The judicial system put my 15 year old daughter in the middle as GateKeeper, and then threatened her younger sibling with being given over to their father for custody, if the “gatekeeper” didn’t tend to the gate. Now, they threaten to legally ban her from visitation because she is angery at what she must endure; being targeted, rideculed, rejected, accused, character assasination, and devalued by her father.
It is too much for her. Now she explodes making similar threats to me; fueled by my oldest daughter’s unresolved issues, who believes she is entitled, and that I owe her for not being able to protect her from two father’s who rejected and abandononed her.
My friends, that my oldest tried to convince me were in agreement with her, are PISSED!!!! And, have rallyed to make a showing at my house, more often, to show my kids, all of them, that I’m not alone. I am supported, and to demonstrate that they are not easily swayed influenced by the likes of a 25 year old mooching off her single mom who is still raising three dependant children, alone.
It should be interesting.
I’ve thought of posting the house for sale, and when they move out, believing they have to because escrow is closing, announce that the deal fell through… But, so glad you found another place to live. The locks have been changed.
The hard part about this is my younger three are bonded with their nephew, and they love their older sister, even if they don’t like some of the things she does. Whatever I do cannot be seen as harsh, cruel, unfair, or in any way lacking in compasion for her…or, no matter what…I’ll be the bad guy.
I’m hoping the ralley of my friends and their influence will have a profound impact.
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kim frederick says:
Isabell, I know you are frightened by your oldest child’s threats, but the only way to take back your power is to be willing to go through what ever she threatens. She mustn’t believe it bothers you one wit. Try this: Shrug your shoulders, as if bored or indifferent and say, simply, “suit yourself.” Period. Walk away. It worked for me and felt marvelous. Good luck!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
It sounds like you are living in a NIGHTMARE. I wouldn’t even iknow where to start to advise you how to extricate yourself from such a night mare. It sounds like you are trapped between the devil and the deep blue sea.
I lived in a nightmare when my P son was at home before his first prison sentence, and at a few other times have felt I was trapped by circumstances in one nightmare or another, most recently when the chaos with my egg donor and my other son’s (now) X wife—but I have determined that I will NOT live that way again.
It sounds like your 15 year old is being adversely effected by the relationship with your older daughter who sounds like a P herself. I’m not sure how many other kids you have or what their situation is but I don’t see your staying there is doing either you, your 15 yr old, or anyone any good at all.
The threats they make against you are threats—and if they actually carry them out—they may hurt you but at the same time, they are also using their LAST BULLET and will lsoe their “happy home” as well.
I think I would stand up and say “GO ON and do your best” I cannot see how they can continue to black mail you inito living in your home like this.
ONLY YOU can challenge their black mail. My guess is that your X would NOT want the responsibility of the kids. A friend of mine years ago was in a shape where the kids kept thinking that she was deliberatly keeping them from their WONDERFUL (not!) father, and the father kept saying “I WANT you to live with me but your mean old mother won’t let you”
So one day the mother said, “Okay, go live with your wonderful father” and the father was told by the kids, “Our mean old mother is letting us live with you from now on” and the father BACKED DOWN because he really did not want the kids, just wanted to stir up problems. So sometimes the only way to deal with a black mailer is to CALL THEIR HAND because once you call their hand they have to put up or shut up. The THREATS of blackmail are just that. When you no longer FEAR their threats YOU WILL WIN.
Get these people out of your life in any way you can if it me4ans that YOU walk out the door with your suitcase and any younger children that you have that will go with you.
Take legal action or whatever you have to do, but only you can know where to start on this or what is possible legally. I’d at least talk to an attorney. God bless you Isabell
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Isabell says:
Oxy,
All five of my support system families have responded to my request for support. They are intending to start making regular appearences at my house to show support of me; in spite of my daughter’s intent to isolate me. The men are going to do some fixing, and engage my daughter and son-in-law with list of responsibilities that they SHOULD be doing to assist me.
My oldest daughter started to pull a manipulative tactic with me, today, and one of my supporters witnessed it, and put her foot down, expressing her objection to the behavior toward me (without making a scene). The behavior immediately stopped, and turned into butt kissing, “Mom, is it ok if…. Do you mind if… Thank you for your help, today.” etc. My teenaged daughter was quick to defend her older sister, until her aunt (one of the supporters) shut her down, twice. That was the end of it.
Today’s supporter called her husband, out of town on a business trip, and explained what is going on, he asked, “Do I need to come home and set them [my oldest, her husband, and my teenaged daughter] straight?
I do believe my oldest daughter, her husband, and my teen are aware something is up. They are all responding to me in a more respectful way, this evening. Interesting.
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blueskies says:
Isabell, how wonderful to have such an amazing support system! xxxxx
Good for your family and friends!xx And good for you for having them:)xx
I have a couple of VERY good friends, I am VERY grateful for, and I will never forget their gentle kind support.
Now I am going to go off on a tangent with the waffle…
I have had absolutely no support from family throughout this ordeal, in-fact they have had a hand in trying to keep me crushed and floundering for as long as I can remember (my parents at the very least are/ were n’s)and actually move/d in for ‘the kill’ when they see/saw me weak(one kind uncle offered me help …for a charge if ya see what I mean…when I was at my lowest… lesson 1. with this lot help comes at a high price Yeuch! And usually an invitation into DRAMA club central…).
changing the dynamic for me with them, or actually more correctly extracting or emancipating myself, has been one of the biggest, most tiring and difficult things to come out of all this…and I am still going through it somewhat…although being absolutely NC with some family members has been the key for me.. and will continue to be…
I have temporarily had to ‘let go’ of my daughter, who was ‘bought’ by my mother for £3,000.00 and a rent paid apartment… good luck to you both I say! We all know how fulfilling paying for friendship is on both sides…especially when there’s nothing else to give…
Now the most urgent problems I am facing day-to day are actually financial ones. It brings up the ‘family’ issue, every time I get a call from a creditor, they ask ‘cant you ask friends or family?’, and I say no, and I get a pang, because it makes me feel ‘alone’… then I think about the reality of my ‘family’(rich as they are and PERFECTLY capable of ‘helping’, but never actually have…a vauge promise always though of help “IF YOUR GOOD”… and then you’re never QUITE ‘good’ enough and blah,blah, blah..) and how help=control, and go through a process of facing that reality, dropping the grief about it and jumping back into the driving seat.
Now even working very hard, and sticking to my budget and arrangements, I see myself back on track by the end of next year , if I am lucky, and its going to be tough, but I am already getting excited (not bitter) about the fact that when I come out of the other end of this, by sticking to my guns and stepping up to my OWN plate, I will have done it on my own, I will OWE nothing…in every sense. That keeps me trucking:)x and it stops any thought of me being a victim or dependant or needy in its tracks.
It also gives me freedom, to enjoy the good relationships I have with the good people in my life, on stronger, more real terms.
Bit of a grumble this morning I think…ah -well, better out than in;)xxxxxx
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blueskies says:
Also, I feel like adding that I have a beautiful little boy here, he has mild ADHD so he’s a little ‘bouncy’, but with the noise and drama of the P and the P/N/S family members turned right down low, and with me accepting my situation for what it is, and in turn finding that I am actually not so bad as a mother and person,feeling more ‘solid’,grounded( with a few wobbles of course, with the whole being human thing;), in less of a spin, I have found more joyful and contented moments and interactions happening with him and in my ‘little’ life now…
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars” – Oscar Wilde:)x
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heavenbound says:
Isabell, that is fantastic!! I am so excited for you!! I’m looking forward to reading what you’ll have to tell as time passes and more happens! It sounds like your headed somewhere great. Best wishes to you!
Blueskies, Amen to all you said, I feel like anything from my family is just as you described it…Independence, is a wonderful thing, not that I’m even headed that way yet. You inspire me to get the engine going, Thank you!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
I’m glad that you have the support system, and that they are behind you. I can’t remember wher eyou live, but i think you live in another country. Setting boundaries and consequences with your daughter and her husband and also with your teenager is a good thing. I am glad that you have others to help enforce those boundaries, but in the end it will, and must be YOU who enforces them as well. Good job.
Blue, I am glad for you that you are pulling yourself out of the debt and other problems “by your own boot straps” I dont’ know if you remember when Aloha finally wrote the check for the last of her debt how grand she felt!
My egg donor also “bought” her “friends” within the family and the Trojan Horse P with money when that didn’t work with me, and I iam so glad that I didn’t in this instance fall for her deception and “gifts” that were really payments on CONTROL. I am so glad that you see that and reject it as a possible “solution” because selling your soul and self worth for money is a poor bargain. It also pithes them off when we get by and prosper without their “help” LOL GOOD FOR YOU!!!!
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blueskies says:
Thanks Oxy and heaven
xx I guess the only people I will ‘owe’ in the end will be you guys (all of you,and the creator of this site:)x I am very grateful, but in no debt I hope)xxx
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witsend says:
Isabell,
I am SO GLAD that you have some dear friends that can help you during this time. Because that is something I did not have. Not that I don’t have wonderful friends…I do. But none of them “stepped into” my world to help me reinforce my spinning out of control world. I was and still am alone when it comes to this.
And in a sense that I can’t quite define properly I think it is very IMPORTANT that you have this BACK UP that your kids can SEE with their own eyes, that others see what is going on.
In some way I think it has made my son feel more “power” in our situation over here because he doesn’t see that I have people behind me. Kind of like he FEELS like he has me isolated into his own “spin” of his distorted and NON REALITY world he lives in. And in a sense this makes him feel more power and control over both myself and his ability to distort what is REAL (reality) in the world outside of our household as well.
I know I am not explaining this well but it is hard to articulate what I mean.
Just know that I believe it is really important for you to have these people continue to come by your house and “call it” out in front of your kids and SEE the manipulation & crazy making.
Isabell, I can’t really explain any of this well but I want you to know that I believe (because of my own personal experience) that your daughters age (the 15 yr old) is really at an age right now that is so important.
You really have to go with your GUT here. If you see something that disturbs you….Know that your feelings are right on. DON’T second guess yourself. And do what ever you think you can do to to steer her away from her older sisters “way of thinking”.
My sons problems escalated so QUICKLY at this age it was almost UNBELIEVABLE. When I look back it really doesn’t even seem possible to me that it happened the way it did. I can NOT emphasize this enough.
One day our lives seemed pretty normal. And then all of a sudden I saw some personality traits that disturbed me in puberty (that didn’t even EXIST before) I tried dealing with this and the next thing I knew I felt like I was living with a stranger. It REALLY spun out of control THAT quickly.
I am unable to REACH my son at this point no matter what I say or what I do. His anger (that I saw initially at 15 y/o) has turned to hatred. His perception is HIS REALITY no matter how distorted it might be.
And I no longer can see any light at the end of the tunnel no matter how much I try to convince myself that if I just could do this, that, or the other that I might reach him. No matter what I do it seems to make things worse. I truly feel he can’t “feel ” the love or concern.
So anything you might do where you feel like you might “reach” your daughters emotions is of importance now.
Any time you see the “light” draw it out. Because once that light is turned off, you might never see it again.
I am not trying to scare you…..Or judge your situation as being the same as mine. I just wanted to share my own experience. (hopefully it can HELP you) When I looked back not all that long ago, I had NO IDEA even though I knew the situation was serious, how quickly things would escalate. Or how BAD they would become.
Feeling threatened in your own home by your own children no mater their age…..Is not a good place to be. I know this feeling well.
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Isabell says:
((((((Witsend)))))) I know the feeling when words sometimes get in the way. Please know this: You most certainly DO understand exactly what I’m dealing with. And, thank you for your insight.
I ache for you that you do not have the support. I’ve lived without support for so long because my ex did isolate me. He’d do it in such subtle ways. A comment that would lead me to think the people I felt were my support system were against me, or judging me, or talking ill about me. Rather then ask them directly, I just shrunk back, hid, and became even more isolated. He convinced me in warped kind of way that if I tried to defend myself, it would be admitting guilt. When in fact, the silence after his accusations, and smear campaigne confirmed guilt in the minds of many.
Based on the past experience, when my daughter tried to convince me that my friends are “onto me,” and planning a group meeting. I immediately became fearful, nervous, scared, and, and, and…. WHAT DID I HAVE TO BE NERVOUSE ABOUT? So, I became proactive, and went to each of them. To my delight, they are 100% supportive of me. They think I am an amazing mother. They have had concerns for a long time the way my oldest takes advantage of me. And, they are concerned about the influence she is having on my younger three, as my younger three, up until this point are recognized as exceptional, articulate, compassionate, loving, responsible, and mature beyond their years. Their behavior has often been examples to my friends on what they strive for in their children.
I am blessed to have such wonderful friends. They recognize, too, that non of this would be happening if (for example) there were a healthy strong male influence, backing me up. But, like you said, my daughter believed I was isolated, and she could call the shots, manipulate me, and take control. She’s in for a big surprise. And, maybe with the show of support for me, she will get the message, and back down, and realize the only control she has is over herself. It’s not that hard. Be responsible for yourself, your actions, attitudes and belongings. Don’t leave a mess for other’s to manage. Don’t take what doesn’t belong to you (including other’s time and resources you are not paying for). Everybody gets along when we each follow these principles.
If she doesn’t like it…. there are 8 people willing to help her pack. :::grins:::
Yes…it is a great feeling to have this support. A few days ago, I wasn’t sure I had it. I had to reach out and express my need. They were already well aware, and talking amongst themselves on what they could do to support me. You see my daughter had contacted them to try and discredit my character. This gave them notice that she was up to something. So they started talking about what they could do to help me. How sweet is that?
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OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
I am so glad that you were PRO-ACTIVE and did not continue to believe that others were “on to you”—LOL I am glad that you went directly to the “horse’s mouth” and got the truth.
Maybe when your older daughter and her husband realize they are NOT IN CONTROL that they will behave better. Sometimes people can just get on a power trip and when they think they are in power they behave badly but are not actually Ps, so I hope that is the case, but if not, if she continues to behave badly and to adversely influence your teenager with her attitude, then get your support people to help her pack. She is responsible for herself, She is an adult and she is NOT your responsibility to provide for her a living or a place to live.
Also for your 15 year old, I know that even normal teenagers can be difficult to deal with, but setting and maintaining reasonable rules and boundaries of behavior are GOOD things and though she may resent them, they will also give her respect fo ryou and stability.
RESPECT yourself and expect and DEMAND tha tothers do as well. GOOD FOR YOU!!!! (((hugs))))
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katiej64 says:
Dr. Leedom: Is there any research on parents who have sociopathic children. My children are now in their 40′s and I am just now discovering that their behavior for most of their life fits the description of sociopathy. Their father was diagnosed several decades ago as a “paranoid psychopath”. My life has been agony raising these children from the time I was 23 as a single parent. It would be so helpful if I at least had some information to help me understand what went wrong. I’ve spent my whole life in a state of confusion.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Katiej,
I’m not Dr. Leedom, but there are many articles in this blog (go to the archived articles arranged by subject on the left) and read through those articles.
There is a genetic link to psychopathy, but also some environmental aspects too. But as the parent of a child who became a psychopath (he is 39 now) who is in prison for murder, I can definitely tell you I know what it is to raise one, and how it is confusing when they first start to show signs of this disorder. Mine started at puberty, and at first appeared just like any normally rebellious teenager, but quickly progressed to felony robbery and before he was 21, to murder for wich he is still in prison.
I kept up a toxic hope, a futile hope, that he would “get it” and come out of prison to at least live a violence free life. I finally realized that was NOT possible.
Giving up that hope that I could somehow effect a change in my son was dramatic and was traumatic to me. I’m several years out from that first trauma now, but it takes time, understanding and knowledge of what we are dealing with.
I suggest that you read the articles here about why psychopaths (also called anti social personality disorder and sociopaths) are the way they are, how they are different in brain chemicals, thinking and interacting with others. Of course there are also “levels” of them, some worse or more violent than others, but they all k now right from wrong, they all have the choices to act in ways that are not toxic or abusive, but they choose to act the way they do.
God bless you, Katie, I know the pain of raising such a child and then having to let that child-man go, to consider him as “dead” to me. Welcome here and hope you can find healing here, there are definitely people here who understand your plight. God bless.
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flowerpower says:
In my case, the ex is “covering” for his bad behavior and subsequent job loss with public lies— in front of our children. This creates doubt and confusion for them…unbalances them and makes them tired and angry.
One child even began to question all that she had seen and heard over the past year; this led to questioning what the “truth” really was about our divorce (serial affairs were discovered).
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OxDrover says:
I wonder what happened to the woman I posted to, apparently she never came back here.
Flower, another mother I know, her X has won custody of their child, and has actually started usinhg the gaslighting to convince the child that he hadn’t lived with his mother since about age 2, though he is 8 or 9 now, and “daddy dearest” has only had him completely for a year or so.
TWISTING REALITY is not that hard in children and they actually can distort what they “remember” to what was implanted in them. Heck, it works with adults, why njot with kids? It is called GASLIGHTING.
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flowerpower says:
Yes we are in full blown child gaslighting here. Twisting reality and rewriting history. Thank God they are teens and dont buy much of it.
And my divorce complaint spelled out in great detail what Mr. Gaslight did; and he had to admit to it all…documentation that enraged him. And he is so arrogant that he is rewriting that!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Flower,
Well, it at least helps your kids are somewhat older, it must have really made your X MAD that you documented all this bad deeds in court! OUCH! They do not like that!
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candy says:
Babies are ‘born to be criminals’
Not sure if this appropriate but I often see partners of spaths asking about their children. Here is a bit of research just out………..
By Danny Buckland 22/02/2011
FUTURE criminals and psychopaths could be identified from just six months old, brain experts said.
Babies with an abnormality in their limbic system – the brain’s emotional core – committed more crimes as adults than those without it, Dr Adrian Raine found.
The psychologist told the American Association for the Advancement of Science in Washington DC:
“Seeds of sin are sown quite early in life.
“The time is going to come when we are going to be able to say reasonably well which individuals at a modest age, say eight to 10 years old, are predicated to become criminal offenders.”
He added: “Are we going to intervene at an early age, even though the prediction will never be perfect?”
Dr Raine is now conducting trials to see if Omega 3, a fatty acid that helps build brain cells, improves behaviour in aggressive children.
He said: “It’s very simple – bad brain, bad behaviour.”
It will be an interesting piece of research. I know that a lot of people see Omega 3 as the ‘brain food’
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Ox Drover says:
Interesting research! Will look this up. Sometimes Articles ABOUT research sensationalize the outcomes and are not entirely accurate about what the research actually showed.
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candy says:
Ox – I agree. Depending on what questions are asked as this will influence the outcome.
eg Question: Do we prefer apples or oranges? (loaded question) cos actually we prefers pears! But as that is not in the ‘answer’ the outcome is skewed.
And yes, I have seen many research results for arthritis, the ‘miracle cure’ but I’m still waiting for the pill to materialise!
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Ox Drover says:
Dear Candy,
Yea, the pill that “melts fat off while you sleep” is the one I am waiting for! Or the miracle cream that “dermatologists don’t want you to know about” that makes your skin as smooth as a baby’s butt! LOL ROTFLMAO
Back when the Phen Fen diet pills were the craze and some doctors were passing them out like candy, I used to tell patients “do you think everyone in this clinic would be FAT if those worked?” (we had some REALLY over weight people in our clinic staff) Actually they did help a bit in losing it but most people gained it right back because they didn’t have a life style change to go with the pills, BUT there were also some bad side effects.
It is unfortunate that there are so many “side effects” to anything you take in the way of medication because humans are NOT simple machines. So we have to take a lot of things into the equation of to take or not to take, or to do this or that….I’mm trying to “get real” with my diet, exercise and addictions (nicotine is my drug of choice) and I do take some medications (primarily aspirin, tylenol, 1-a-day-vitamins and an antidepressant) moderation, but I know there are associated RISKS as well. I recently had to change the antidepressant as it was the generic of that brand and the second dose was keeping me from going to sleep at night—and I’d had BAD problems with falling asleep at night, not realizing that it was a SIDE EFFECT of the medication. (Even my psych-doctor didn’t put the 2 and 2 together on that one and just rx’d a sleeping pill)
So you know there are some big problems with medications and other “treatments” and there are NO miracle drugs! LOL
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candy says:
Now now Ox – think of your blood pressure. All that rolling on the floor will send your BP sky high!
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Jen says:
Hi. I think I should share how great my kids have done without their SP father. I have always wondered if my kids sperm donor was an S. Now, after speaking to him after 8 years of nc, I very much believe he is. I could never understand how he could just abandon them, happily, and not give one thought to how they are. I did not know about S/P/N back until the past year or so.
Their dad was a complete jerk though. My son is 8 years old then my daughter, and my son did have contact with my ex when he was younger. My son hated him, and he hated going with him anywhere. BUT his sperm donor (he is not a real father so that is all I call him when the kids are not around) would buy him neat toys when he did decide to see him. My ex only saw our son a couple of times a year anyway. He was too busy with his gf doing Meth (had no clue at the time).
I had gotten back together with him (for my son. I was young and dumb lol) and that is how my daughter came about. (I was on monthly birth control shots from my doctor, but somehow ended up pregnant. Go figure.) We broke up before she was born, due to his arrogant nasty attitude. He did not seem the same person he was when we were younger (probably partly due to the Meth he had done before that I was clueless about).
The last time I saw him was in the hospital when she was born. He signed the birth cert, and that was it. He disappeared, and we had no clue where he was or if he was even alive.
Well, his gf got ahold of my son last month. My son went to dinner with his sperm donor. After he returned home, he asked if he ever ‘had’ to see him or talk to him again. Of course I told him he didn’t ‘have’ to do anything he didn’t want to. My ex is very good looking, seemingly intelligent, and acts quit friendly and nice, but something about him creeped my son out. My daughter didn’t care to see him at all, as she doesn’t even know him. (she is 8 now, btw)
Anyway, my kids are not screwed up from not having a father. My son is very thankful that he wasn’t stuck growing up with him. I was scared when I was younger about them not having a dad around. Now, I think I made the right decision. Both of them are very smart, and great in school. Both are very loving and nuturing children. They don’t lie, cheat, steal, and they are always concerned with other people’s feelings. They are just very loving, caring people.
I am proud of them, and proud of myself for listening to my instincts about parenting, instead of everyone else telling me the opposite. I used to get a hard time from a lot of people, because I didn’t let my babies cry or crap like that. I naturally did attached parenting, but that is what I felt to be right inside.
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Jen says:
Opps, wasn’t done. Computer freaked out.
….
Point being in all of that… My kids are not lacking by not having a father. My kids are doing great, because they did get all of the love, support, and teaching they needed from me and some of my sane loved ones around me. (I only say sane because I do have some relatives with personality disorders.)
Kids do good when they have a loving and supportive parent or caretaker. Kids usually don’t do all that great when they have a P/S/N parent or caretaker. I have seen children that are subjected to parents like this, and it is sad.
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