D.C. Sniper killing spree was a plot to win child custody
PDF John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. Sniper, will die by lethal injection tomorrow.
John Allen Muhammad and his teenaged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, terrorized the Washington, D.C. area for three weeks in October 2002. In the end, 10 people were dead and three were wounded. The victims, selected at random, were shot while doing mundane chores like pumping gas and loading Halloween decorations into a car.
I’m sure you remember the terror of the killings. But you may not realize that the killing spree was an escalation of a child custody battle.
Psychological abuse
Mildred Muhammad, the ex-wife of John Allen Muhammad, spoke at the Battered Mothers Custody Conference in Albany last January. Her story was compelling—and heartbreaking.
Mildred was married to Muhammad for 12 years, and they had three children together. Muhammad served in the Gulf War and when he returned, he became abusive.
“His behavior turned to possessiveness,” Mildred said. “I couldn’t do anything right. He was trained in psychological warfare—he was a combat engineer—and he used me as his guinea pig.”
Muhammad didn’t hit her, but inflicted psychological abuse. “Every emotion I displayed, he used against me,” Mildred said. Finally, in 1999, she asked for a divorce.
Kidnapped children
Before, during and after their divorce, Muhammad threatened to kill Mildred. He drained their bank account and kidnapped the children, taking them to Antigua for 18 months. Mildred was forced to hide in a women’s shelter for eight months in the Tacoma, Washington area.
She could not afford legal representation. So while in the women’s shelter, Mildred taught herself the law so she could represent herself. Eventually the children were located. Mildred went to court, won her case and was awarded full custody. Then she fled across the country to Maryland.
Muhammad found her. And, Mildred says, that’s why he went on the killing spree. Muhammad planned to kill her, and the rest of the murders were an elaborate ruse to cover up her murder. She would just be another of the random victims, and he could show up as the grieving ex-husband, and claim the children.
Want to win
When John Allen Muhammad was brought to trial, the prosecutor put forth Mildred’s contention that the killing spree was intended cover up the eventual death of his ex-wife. The court, however, ruled that there was insufficient evidence to support the argument.
But after all the stories I’ve heard from Lovefraud readers, I think it’s totally plausible. Sociopaths want to win. Nothing else matters to them. I believe John Allen Muhammad was willing to kill 10 innocent people, at random, just to get his way.
If ever there was a case that demonstrated the lengths a sociopath will go to in order to win, this is it.
No conscience
According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, Muhammad’s lawyers filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court last week, claiming that the killer is mentally ill and delusional.
But Paul Ebert, the Virginia prosecutor who won Muhammad’s death sentence, said, “This guy had absolutely no conscience. He killed people just like they were flies.”
Mildred also does not believe that her ex-husband is mentally ill.
Support for other victims
Mildred has written a book about her ordeal called Scared Silent. She has also founded an organization in Maryland to support survivors of domestic violence called After the Trauma.
“I started After the Trauma because of my own personal domestic violence experience and thought of all the other women in similar situations who need day-to-day assistance, as I did,” Mildred writes on her website. “After the Trauma is women who are transitioning from a domestic violence situation and are ready to take the next step into ‘freedom.’”
Like many of us here at Lovefraud, Mildred Muhammad has been through an incredible ordeal. And like many of us, she emerged on the other side stronger, and willing to help others along the path to healing.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, please don’t go away!
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jillsmith says:
Kim,
P.S. I was responding to the earlier post when you were telling me how I appear to everyone. To generalize like that is a big dig. You don’t know how I appear in general, to everyone. That was meant to legitimize your claim. You make it sound like everyone has talked about me. They haven’t. I no longer buy this kind of stuff.
Then, after my goodbye above, I read your next comment, going overboard in the other direction, complimenting me. It makes no sense. I think it must have been sarcastic and no I don’t think this because I have “serious issues with my self-estem”. I say it because it’s confusing as hell. I just wanted to do this last post to explain that my above post to you was not in response to your most recent comment. I was still writing my comment, so I didn’t see it until later. I really liked you. You were actually my favorite person on this board and I learned a lot from you, so I am so confused. But, I’m going to leave it a mystery and leave. Bye this time.
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kim frederick says:
O h my God, Jill. I’m so sorry! I REALLY didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. We had had a similar conversation with another poster earlier, and maybe I was talking to her. I don’t know. I wasn’t even refering to the Oxy/Skylar incident. It had more to do with the Tilly thing. Remember? It had to do with you thinking people were refering to you, when they weren’t. I don’t know. I hurt your feelings. I’m sorry.
I do think you’re incredible, and Yes, that was pretty assertive. You go girl.
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jillsmith says:
This is the post of yours I was referring to, Kim:
kim frederick says:
“No, Jill Smith. No one thinks it’s insincere. It’s just that if it’s happening all the time, if you are constantly apologizing, it makes people uncomfortable. It says something about you. It says that you doubt yourself. That you need approval. That what other people think of you is of prime importance. I think it makes good people uncomfortable because it gives them too much power. I’m not trying to be mean, just honest.
I’m certainly not saying you are a bad person…You’re not. But I think you have some real self esteem problems.
Also, this excessive kindness, ie vulnerability, is the kind of thing a P would hone in on and then eat up. Jill, I like you very much, so I hope I’m not hurting your feelings. I just think you need to toughen up……:)”
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jillsmith says:
SOOOO……………since I’m make people so uncomfortable and it was stated like a fact and everyone else on the thread agrees, goodbye.
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skylar says:
Jill, who said you made good people uncomfortable?
You make me happy. I think the quote was misread.
Please reconsider. I wish I could be more supportive to you.
all I can say is this: Look, we have Ps all over the world.Then there are the garden-variety P’s (read Cleckly’s book, the mask of sanity) we need to learn to understand them because they aren’t gong away. I have the thinnist skin in the world, both figuratively and literally, and we all need to thicken it up. Love and kindness is critical to that, but so is reality and some real life experience with people who aren’t so nice (but in a safe environment)
So you know everyone here can relate to your situation, and we all want to be there for you and your son. Try to give some flexibilty to people when they don’t say the right thing. Talk about it. Ask them for more leeway with your situation. If you try that and it doesn’t work, then I don’t blame you for being mad, but you have to try first.
I’m so tired
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jillsmith says:
OH and I’ll keep toughening up. I’m plenty tough. I’m tough and smart enough to recognize when something is unhealthy and DO something about it. I don’t just need approval. I speak my mind all the time. If anything, I’m TOO opinionated, but that’s fine because it’s ME. I don’t think someone else has a right to psychoanalyze me and tell me what I feel. You know NOTHING of what I feel and cannot assign emotions to me. To tell me that I need approval like a fact and that I doubt myself. MEAN, MEAN, MEAN!
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heavenbound says:
Jill,
Everyone else does not agree…I don’t
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jillsmith says:
Skylar and EB did agree. Read. Bye.
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kim frederick says:
No Jill, No sarcasm. I meant all the good things I said.
I never said everybody. I was speaking entirely from my own point of view. I think I was telling you what I most to need to hear myself. I feel like I have alot of these same issues. I am SO SORRY.
When I said “good people”, well I guess I like to think of myself as good people, but I only meant me. And yeah. It makes ME uncomfortable, and I was trying to figure out why…
Okay. I’m done explaining, but I hope you understand that I’m sorry.
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jillsmith says:
Not EB. EB just stated it in a nice way. She’s nice about it at least. Okay. Now I’m going, but not to bed. No sleep for me tonight now and now I have this stupid sleeping pill in my system and just feel wound up and drugged out on Ambien at the same time. This is my first time ever taking sleep medication and NOW THIS.
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heavenbound says:
Jill,
Please do not be hateful with me, I did read.
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jillsmith says:
Heaven,
I didn’t mean it in a hateful tone. I swear. I went back and read it and can easily see that it was mean in one. I’ll admit my tone to Kim might be considered hateful. I was speaking up for myself and I am not the best at it but I wanted to make it very clear that boundaries are violated for me when someone tells me how I feel and sums me up or judges me. It was not a very good response to a simple question I asked.
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shabbychic says:
jillsmith, I think you are fabulous! That is my highest compliment! You have never made me feel uncomfortable, I have learned a lot from your posts, you are very insightful and able to write so well, this is your victory day and please know that we are here with love in our hearts for you and your son. I wish you lived next door so we could talk.
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shabbychic says:
jillsmith, that post was not about you, it just got caught in the crossfire.
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ErinBrock says:
Jill:
I support you and commend what you did with the TPO tonight and I am really bummed your joy has been hijacked, you didn’t deserve that low…..I’m not sure what/how you are interpreting my posts…..but I can’t defend something that I never said or intended.
I hope you reconsider…..
XXOO
EB
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kim frederick says:
Jill, You are right. I had absolutely no right to tell you how you feel or what you are. It was a boundry violation, and I’m glad you told me so. I’m trying to learn about myself every day. I meant no harm, but I understand that I did harm.
I am sorry.
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OxDrover says:
Guys, 90% of “communication” is body language, ,and the written word alone is a difficult thing to communicate the emotions that we communicate here.
Plus, we are all RAW to one extent or another. Some of us are in different places on the road toward healing.
One of the problems with any group of 2 or more people grieving is one may be in the “bargaining” stage and another in the “anger” stage and it so on, so it is easy for them to not comprehend where the other one is coming from.
Except for the occasional TROLL (I saw and read that guy last night and picked up quickly that he/she/it was “gonna be trouble”) my P-dar was working pretty well last night. Just the NAME itself was a pretty good clue! The stance of being an “expert” on Ps also gave him/her/it a sense of “danger” to me.
I went to bed before it “turned ugly” so didn’t read anything except that Donna had removed it this morning.
Except for a FEW individuals who come here with waht I call the “gasoline and fire” back grounds, a co-abuser who has “lost” the latest round with their co-abuser and present themselves as “victims” but then become abusive toward others in their stance that they had NO responsibility or accountablity for their own choices. Fortuantely right now we don’t have that.
Let’s each of us PRESUME that unless someone calls us a nasty name OUTRIGHT, that their intentions are HONORABLE. About 99.99% of the time that will be right. If someone says something taht you even THINK triggers you, inistead of getting mad and leaving or threatening to leave, what about saying something like ” sussie, when you say xyz, *I am triggered.”
But we need to keep in mind that NO ONE can “make us feel” ANYTHING if WE DON’T ALLOW IT.
Even if someone does call you a b1atch, so what? Hit the report abuse button and DONNA WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. I promise you, TRUST ehr because she WILL come through.
We all have different opinons about things, and sometimes we think someone is DEAD WRONG and we can and do say it (hopefully with kindness). Each of us in the end, though, is responsible for their own healing, their own marching forward (or not as the case may be).
None of us is 100% “healthy” (that’s why we’re here folks! DUH!) But, each of us is WORKING on healing and being better tomorrow than today TOWANDA FOR US! We should respect that in ourselves and in others.
I’m a cranky old woman and I speak plainly. If I disagree with you I will say so. If you are doing something I think is counter productive I will say so, it does not mean I think you are a bad person or that I am attacking you. It simply means I disagree with you, and I may try to persuade you with my “reasoning” but no one is obligated to take my advice.
I have probably made more mistakes than any 10 of you put together in my life (I’ve lived longer in most cases) and I’ll make mistakes again, but I am MOVING TOWARD THE LIGHT, at least in teh right direction most days! I can’t fix the bad guys, but I am working hard on fixing me, as I know you all are working on fixing yourselves, healing yourselves.
Setting boundaries is difficult, especially when we are raw, we over react to any perceived threat, we are hypervigilent (oh, boy was I EVER hyper!) but I am past that now (most of the time) but I realize that others aren’t always past it. That’s okay, it will pass. That’s why I think it is soooo VERY important that we STAY here even when the going gets rough. Take a break if you need to but don’t anyone “get mad and leave.” Work out your problems with another blogger in a kind and logical way.
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shabbychic says:
jillsmith, I will miss you… I thought I made it clear last night that I did not agree with Kim’s post, if I did not reply strongly enough, I apologize (for real!) I was not hiding from Evil Clown, Donna has asked us 10,000 times not to engage with predators… so I was just ignoring him, but Clown and the people who were talking to him changed the vibe of the board into a negative place, and when I saw you post… such exciting news about your custody issues, I didn’t want to NOT respond because I was so happy for you.
Thank you for the information on the Mormon’s, I know they are a cult, but I did not know 95% of the info you wrote about.
I have only good feelings about you and respect you a great deal. You are a beautiful person, I think your one tough little cookie!!!
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jillsmith says:
Oxy,
I am actually pretty shocked that no one else said anything about the post Kim made to me. Did read the language she used to me after I asked a simple quetion then stated that something made me sad. I specifically said it made me feel triggered. Then, Kim posted that comment, AFTER I said I was triggered. I was the only one who wasn’t hiding, playing passive-aggressive or outright games with the Evil Clown. I am the only one who just told him that I did not want to engage with him socially and I drew my boundary.
Now, each time I am not on here for a while, Skylar has said something about me or tried to put words in my mouth and speak FOR me. She did this the other day by planting that seed and making me look pathetic in the comment she made to you about my apology to you for continuing a topic you wanted to end. I feel it was rude to use me to try to make you look bad and then she ended up slamming me unfairly. Couple with Tilly’s constant following me around the board before, it was easy for Skylar to plant little seeds, then voila! You get people like Kim who just want to jump on the bandwagon of picking on someone. Were they mad I came onto the board saying I was celebrating because of the hugest victory of my life? Why would they do that? What is going on there? By the way, my version of celebrating is to go for 2 for 1 personal pizza special around the corner and have chocolate ice-cream, not pop pills and get drunk, like others. I am actually TRYING to recover, so to deal with Skylar is difficult. I don’t deal well with drunk people. I shouldn’t have to have patience with drunk people. This isn’t a frat house. It was a weeknight, for heaven’s sake.
You know that my stance has NEVER been to leave for good and take my toys and go. Remember the post I posted a few days ago about how I didn’t think this was a good idea? I also stated that I noticed there is a lot of contention on the board and that I needed to take that into account when deciding if it is healthy for me to be here or not. I have taken a lot of time and care with this decision, because I learn so much and appreciate people like you on this board.
As I aws thinking about it all, I started noting how many times I was in a perfectly good mood and even happy for the first time in a long time. I then would come to the board and immediately get triggered and rightfully so when I come back on here and read comments that were written behind my back and using my name. Even Skylar’s post attacking EVERYONE the other night had my name. She brought me into all of this unfairly while I was gone for a whole month. I came on to read she said claimed I felt the same way about the board as her. She also said the comment to you about my apology to make me look pathetic and spinelesss, which Kim bought into perfectly, not even seeing what was going on. Skylar has played a very destructive game and I am not the only person she has hurt through this. It was so much gaslighting and undercurrent meanness covered with nice compliments, that it took me a very long time to figure out last night. When I saw her post about how she only has a few years left and wants to enjoy them, I noticed it is the EXACT same language her supposed P said to her in those supposed emails and phone conversations where she supposedly wrote down everything from an answering machine. The language she used is in her voice. As someone with a background in linguistics, it was not difficult for me to pick up on this, once I saw it. I have never been anything but nice and supportive of Skylar and I was not fake about it. I did not deserve any of this.
The good news is that I have been recovering enough to KNOW that I do not deserve it and to not hang around somewere that feels abusive right while I’m trying to heal from serious abuse. Taking all of this into consideration and coming on here again and again to find the same thing, I would be a stupid human being to continue behavior that is so obviously not working for me. It was time to reframe and start some new, healthy habits to put in the place.
I’ll be fine. I have a great therapist. Additionally, I go to a exmormon recovery support board. There are an average of 100,000 hits a day on that recovery site, so recovering from cult programming is a bit deal. As I have proceeded with therapy over the years, I have had great therapists who have helped me get to the root of my “problem”. At the root of BOTH cases of physical and sexual abuse in my life, were mormon men who are direct descendents of Joseph Smith (so am I). If you’re a mormon with ancestors who were pioneers who walked across the country to Utah. My family is the real deal mormon family, dating back to Joe himself. It’s nto hard to be related to him though when he had dozens of wives and fathered so many kids. ALL mormon men practiced this gross sexual deviant practice. He even married 13 year olds and no, this was not a common age to marry back then, as many mormons will say to defend him. The average age of marriage then was 18-19. Historical documents and census results prove this to be true. He STOLE people’s wives. He told them that God told him that they were supposed to go on a mission to Europe for sometimes 5 to 10 years. Since he had convinced them all that he had private conversations with God all of the time and that if you disobey him (he claimed to be a prophet), that you would never see your family again in the after-life and that it was a sin worse than murder. So, then the men would go, and Joseph would marry their wives AND daughters. He married children of women he married. He fathered many children to very young girls who had just gone through puberty. He then taught a whole group of people that this is how men are supposed to treat women and that women are “their possessions” Mormons still say that women are their husband’s possessions and they can only go to heaven if they do exactly what their leader/owner/husband tells them to do. Period. That is why my family got mad when I left my P. They think that I condemning my child to a life in hell because they claim that only my ex-husband can “save” me when Jesus comes. This is honestly and truly how they view the world. Luckily, I used my brain after years of being brainwashed and knew I smelled a poopy diaper. Mormonism is a whole culture though, not just a religion. They even told me what underwear I had to wear. I wen through their temple when I was 21 and had to wear their silly underwear they claim is magic. That’s SHORTS and an undershirt made of polyester under all of my clothes, all the time, even when home alone in my own home with my husband. You have to wear your undershirt OVER your bra, which is gross and weird. You even have to do it in Arizona’s 115 degree temperatures, or you won’t go to heaven. Additionally, Joseph Smith was nothing but a conman. What exmoromons are recovering from specifically is a great con. They even say JS was a Sociopath in my other recovery forum and talk about and educate themselves about sociopaths all the time. He was a 14 year-old magician and treasure hunter. That’s what he did for fun. He was hunting for gold and treasures in the woods when he claimed he found the gold Book of Mormon and Jesus and Heavenly Father came down (with glowing, physical bodies) and told him to start this cult. He then forced all members to pay 10% of their income and often everything they own. I was taught that anything I own is really not mine, but the mormon church’s. This is what I was taught growing up. I spent 20-30 hours of unpaid work in that cult, starting with assignments and jobs when I was only 16 years old. Now, Mormons are being told to double their tithing and receive more rewards and no, tithing is not really a choice when you are told that they only way you can be saved and go to heaven is to pay it, since you were a child. I had to pay birthday card money from my tithing and my babysitting. It doesn’t go to charity, like they claim. 1% of this money goes to tithing. The mormon church is not shy in saying their goal is to convert the whole world. That is why they do what is called “baptisms for the dead” when they baptize people who have died by proxy. Kids can do this part of temple work, so at 12 I had to get dunked over and over again in a pool of water for 30 minutes straight for all these dead people. Then, I had to do it again and again in between breaks. This how I spent my Saturdays growing up. Then, not to mention seminary at 5:00 in the morning every morning in Jr. High and High School. All to be told what was wrong with me because I was a woman and that abuse is okay kept within families. You may wonder where their other 99% of billions of dollars go? Well, for one, they are building a MALL in Salt Lake City that they just announced will now cost 3 Billion dollars. Yes, you read right. Research it. Two clicks on google and you can read all of this stuff for yourself. They only claim to give lots of money to charity. They are using stories about mothers going without heat and water to pay their tithing and promise that these women will be blessed. The leaders still take jets all over and have salaries of 500,000 plus limos and the list of their vacation spots around the world and their million dollar condos in Salt Lake. The list of their sicknesses goes on and on. They tell starving members in Argentina to pay this too. Why? So that the rich mormons can shop and give the mormon cult even more money.
My ex even looks like Joseph Smith, which makes sense since it’s his relative. Most mormons look very similar because of all of the inbreeding for years. My psychological problems could have something to do with years of this rape and inbreeding. That effects genetics, you know. I explained all of this because many times my experiences as a mormon have all been brused aside and I was told all religions are like this. I wish people would do research before making statements like this. Mormons seem nice and normal because they put great effort into doing so. They specifically don’t tell people about all of this weird stuff (if ever) until AFTER they are baptized and sucked in. It’s very hush-hush and you have no idea about mormons. It is not a religion. It is a destructive cult where millions of members are taught to do everything ONE man says, no matter what. I even took a blood oath in their secret temple where I had to do a gesture with all of the other people there, acting out disembowling myself and killing myself or letting someone kill me if I tell about the temple. I did a slitting throat hand motion and disembowlment re-enactment motion to “symbolize” my oath before God that I would kill myself if I told anything about the temple. Now I say HOGWASH. I’ll tell anyone anything I want to about any of the experiences of my life. I won’t keep their secrets anymore. By the way, they did actually kill mormons for telling these things only 150 year ago. They were called Danites. It’s historical. They also killed many Dutch immigrants in Utah at the Mountain Meadow Massacre. They dressed up as Native Americans and murdered women and men and some children, with axes. This is true and historical. PBS even did a special on it. I was working on a documentary too, categorizing the vioence of this cultish organization. They then took all of the kids and adopted them. This was only a couple hundred year ago. Can you imagine being one of those kids? The crazy mormons were so paranoid that the Dutch immigrants were sent by the government to stop the polygamy that they escaped across the country to still practice, illegally in Utah. This was just a normal, nice group of Dutch pioneers who were not violent and who were NOT sent by the goverment. The mormon leader ordered these murders in the name of being able to have sex and rape multiple women and children, forcing them to marry and be one of dozens of wives. It’s sick. Now do you think the mormon cult is so innocent and the same as other relgions. You can look all of this stuff up because there it’s true and there are many historical documents backing it up. Mormons cannot produce ONE SINGLE document to back up any of their ridiculous claims. Now you know the damage that one Sociopath can do. The pain that Joseph Smith has caused is beyond understanding. It will be with this country for hundreds of years until people wise up and stop letting Sociopaths run the show.
So, I am still going to learn about and stay away from Sociopaths through my other, much more healthy for me, recovery group. Anyway, sorry to leave like this, but I have felt very misunderstood and attacked here and I’m trying to make emotional decisions that are healthy. And no, this is NOT like real life on this board. I understand why all of this goes on because there are so many unhealthy people on here playing off of each other, but it’s not for me anymore. Please take good care of yourselves. I do care about you and wish you the best.
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jillsmith says:
Oxy,
In the above comment, only the beginning was for you specifially. The rest was for the general audience of readers. Sorry to confuse. Oh. Should I say sorry for saying sorry?
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jillsmith says:
Here’s an easier to read version of my above comment, that is more appropriately broken up into paragrahs. I realize the above comment is hard to read:
Oxy,
I am actually pretty shocked that no one else said anything about the post Kim made to me. Did read the language she used to me after I asked a simple quetion then stated that something made me sad. I specifically said it made me feel triggered. Then, Kim posted that comment, AFTER I said I was triggered. I was the only one who wasn’t hiding, playing passive-aggressive or outright games with the Evil Clown. I am the only one who just told him that I did not want to engage with him socially and I drew my boundary.
Now, each time I am not on here for a while, Skylar has said something about me or tried to put words in my mouth and speak FOR me. She did this the other day by planting that seed and making me look pathetic in the comment she made to you about my apology to you for continuing a topic you wanted to end. I feel it was rude to use me to try to make you look bad and then she ended up slamming me unfairly. Couple with Tilly’s constant following me around the board before, it was easy for Skylar to plant little seeds, then voila! You get people like Kim who just want to jump on the bandwagon of picking on someone. Were they mad I came onto the board saying I was celebrating because of the hugest victory of my life? Why would they do that? What is going on there? By the way, my version of celebrating is to go for 2 for 1 personal pizza special around the corner and have chocolate ice-cream, not pop pills and get drunk, like others. I am actually TRYING to recover, so to deal with Skylar is difficult. I don’t deal well with drunk people. I shouldn’t have to have patience with drunk people. This isn’t a frat house. It was a weeknight, for heaven’s sake.
You know that my stance has NEVER been to leave for good and take my toys and go. Remember the post I posted a few days ago about how I didn’t think this was a good idea? I also stated that I noticed there is a lot of contention on the board and that I needed to take that into account when deciding if it is healthy for me to be here or not. I have taken a lot of time and care with this decision, because I learn so much and appreciate people like you on this board.
As I aws thinking about it all, I started noting how many times I was in a perfectly good mood and even happy for the first time in a long time. I then would come to the board and immediately get triggered and rightfully so when I come back on here and read comments that were written behind my back and using my name. Even Skylar’s post attacking EVERYONE the other night had my name. She brought me into all of this unfairly while I was gone for a whole month. I came on to read she said claimed I felt the same way about the board as her. She also said the comment to you about my apology to make me look pathetic and spinelesss, which Kim bought into perfectly, not even seeing what was going on. Skylar has played a very destructive game and I am not the only person she has hurt through this. It was so much gaslighting and undercurrent meanness covered with nice compliments, that it took me a very long time to figure out last night. When I saw her post about how she only has a few years left and wants to enjoy them, I noticed it is the EXACT same language her supposed P said to her in those supposed emails and phone conversations where she supposedly wrote down everything from an answering machine. The language she used is in her voice. As someone with a background in linguistics, it was not difficult for me to pick up on this, once I saw it. I have never been anything but nice and supportive of Skylar and I was not fake about it. I did not deserve any of this.
The good news is that I have been recovering enough to KNOW that I do not deserve it and to not hang around somewere that feels abusive right while I’m trying to heal from serious abuse. Taking all of this into consideration and coming on here again and again to find the same thing, I would be a stupid human being to continue behavior that is so obviously not working for me. It was time to reframe and start some new, healthy habits to put in the place.
I’ll be fine. I have a great therapist. Additionally, I go to a exmormon recovery support board. There are an average of 100,000 hits a day on that recovery site, so recovering from cult programming is a bit deal. As I have proceeded with therapy over the years, I have had great therapists who have helped me get to the root of my “problem”. At the root of BOTH cases of physical and sexual abuse in my life, were mormon men who are direct descendents of Joseph Smith (so am I). I
was a mormon with ancestors who were pioneers who walked across the country to Utah.. My family is the real deal mormon family, dating back to Joe himself. It’s nto hard to be related to him though when he had dozens of wives and fathered so many kids. ALL mormon men practiced this gross sexual deviant practice. Joseph even married 13 year olds and no, this was not a common age to marry back then, as many mormons will say to defend him. The average age of marriage then was 18-19. Historical documents and census records prove this to be true. He STOLE people’s wives. He told them that God told him that they were supposed to go on a mission to Europe for sometimes 5 to 10 years. Since he had convinced them all that he had private conversations with God all of the time and that if you disobey him (he claimed to be a prophet), that you would never see your family again in the after-life and that it was a sin worse than murder. So, then the men would go, and Joseph would marry their wives AND daughters. He married children of women he married. He fathered many children to very young girls who had just gone through puberty.
Joseph then taught a whole group of people that this is how men are supposed to treat women and that women are “their possessions” Mormons still say that women are their husband’s possessions (literally) and they can only go to heaven if they do exactly what their leader/owner/husband tells them to do. Period. That is why my family got mad when I left my P. They think that I condemning my child to a life in hell because they claim that only my ex-husband can “save” me when Jesus comes. This is honestly and truly how they view the world.
Luckily, I used my brain after years of being brainwashed and knew I smelled a poopy diaper, so after years of trying to deprogram this cult from my brain, I don’t buy this junk at all. Mormonism is a whole culture though, not just a religion. When people leave it, they often lose all their friends and family, much like with a P. I have lost it all twice now.
They even told me what underwear I had to wear, people! I went through their temple when I was 21 and had to wear their silly underwear they claim is magic. That’s SHORTS to my knew and an undershirt with sleeves made of polyester under all of my clothes, all the time, even when home alone in my own home with my husband. You have to wear your undershirt OVER your bra, which is gross and weird. You even have to do it in Arizona’s 115 degree temperatures, or you won’t go to heaven. A
dditionally, Joseph Smith was nothing but a conman. What exmoromons are recovering from specifically is a great con. They even say JS was a Sociopath in my other recovery forum and talk about and educate themselves about sociopaths all the time. He was a 14 year-old magician and treasure hunter. That’s what he did for fun. He was hunting for gold and treasures in the woods when he claimed he found the gold Book of Mormon and Jesus and Heavenly Father came down (with glowing, physical bodies) and told him to start this cult.
He then forced all members to pay 10% of their income and often everything they own. I was taught that anything I own is really not mine, but the mormon church’s. This is what I was taught growing up. I spent 20-30 hours of unpaid work in that cult, starting with assignments and jobs when I was only 16 years old. Now, Mormons are being told to double their tithing and receive more rewards and no, tithing is not really a choice when you are told that they only way you can be saved and go to heaven is to pay it, since you were a child. I had to pay birthday card money from my tithing and my babysitting. It doesn’t go to charity, like they claim. 1% of this money goes to tithing. The mormon church is not shy in saying their goal is to convert the whole world. That is why they do what is called “baptisms for the dead” when they baptize people who have died by proxy. Kids can do this part of temple work, so at 12 I had to get dunked over and over again in a pool of water for 30 minutes straight for all these dead people. Then, I had to do it again and again in between breaks. This how I spent my Saturdays growing up. Then, not to mention seminary at 5:00 in the morning every morning in Jr. High and High School. All to be told what was wrong with me because I was a woman and that abuse is okay kept within families. You may wonder where their other 99% of billions of dollars go? Well, for one, they are building a MALL in Salt Lake City that they just announced will now cost 3 Billion dollars. Yes, you read right. Research it. Two clicks on google and you can read all of this stuff for yourself. They only claim to give lots of money to charity. They are using stories about mothers going without heat and water to pay their tithing and promise that these women will be blessed. The leaders still take jets all over and have salaries of 500,000 plus limos and the list of their vacation spots around the world and their million dollar condos in Salt Lake. The list of their sicknesses goes on and on. They tell starving members in Argentina to pay this too. Why? So that the rich mormons can shop and give the mormon cult even more money.
My ex even looks like Joseph Smith, which makes sense since it’s his relative. Most mormons look very similar because of all of the inbreeding for years. My psychological problems could have something to do with years of this rape and inbreeding. That effects genetics, you know.
I have explained all of this because a few times my experiences as a mormon have all been brushed aside on this board and I was told all religions are like this. I wish people would do research before making statements like this. Mormons seem nice and normal because they put great effort into doing so. It’s ALL about appearances. They specifically don’t tell people about all of this weird stuff (if ever) until AFTER they are baptized and sucked in. It’s very hush-hush and you have no idea about mormons. It is not a religion. It is a destructive cult where millions of members are taught to do everything ONE man says, no matter what.
I even was forced to take a something called a “blood oath” in their secret temple where I had to do a gesture with all of the other people there, acting out disembowling myself and killing myself or letting someone kill me if I tell about the temple. I did a slitting throat hand motion and disembowlment re-enactment motion to “symbolize” my oath before God that I would kill myself if I told anything about the temple. Now I say HOGWASH. I’ll tell anyone anything I want to about any of the experiences of my life. I won’t keep their secrets anymore. By the way, they did actually killed mormons who told these things only 150 year ago. They were called Danites. It’s historical. Please, look it up if you are curious or doubting.
Mormons committed the biggest act of terrorism since 911. It is the largest act of terrorism with the most deaths of Americans against other Americans. They also killed many Dutch immigrants who came to Utah from Arkansas. They came to meet their death and have their children kidnapped. This horrific event occurred at Mountain Meadows in Utah and is called the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I have been there, to the memorial. The mormons dressed up as Native Americans and murdered women and men and some children, with axes. This is true and historical. PBS even did a special on it 2 years ago, finally! I was working on a documentary too, categorizing the vioence of this cultish organization. After slaughtering these men, women and children, they took all of the remaining kids they did not murder and adopted them. This was only a couple hundred year ago. Can you imagine being one of those kids? The crazy mormons were so paranoid that the Dutch immigrants were sent by the government to stop the polygamy that they escaped across the country to still practice, illegally in Utah. This was just a normal, nice group of Dutch pioneers who were not violent and who were NOT sent by the goverment. The mormon leader ordered these murders in the name of being able to have sex and rape multiple women and children, forcing them to marry and be one of dozens of wives. It’s sick. The mormons followed their prophet and did as he told them to do so, thinking that he (this prophet who ordered this was the second mormon prophet, Brigham Young) talked to God about it and that they would not go to heaven unless they followed these orders to murder. What about this does not sound Sociopathic? That isn’t even Joseph Smith. Many of these abusive control-freak leaders were Ps, in my opinion.
Now do you think the mormon cult is so innocent and the same as other relgions? You can look all of this stuff up because there it’s true and there are many historical documents backing it up. Mormons cannot produce ONE SINGLE document to back up any of their ridiculous claims. Now you know the damage that one Sociopath can do. The pain that Joseph Smith has caused is beyond understanding. It will be with this country for hundreds of years until people wise up and stop letting Sociopaths run the show.
So, I am still going to learn about and stay away from Sociopaths through my other, much more healthy for me, recovery group. Anyway, sorry to leave like this, but I have felt very misunderstood and attacked here and I’m trying to make emotional decisions that are healthy. And no, this is NOT like real life on this board. I understand why all of this goes on because there are so many unhealthy people on here playing off of each other, but it’s not for me anymore. Please take good care of yourselves. I do care about you and wish you the best.
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Darling Jill,
I know you feel you have been attacked. I validate what you are saying about your FEELINGS. Whether you were attacked is not something I can not say yea or nay on. What I am saying is that even if you feel perfectly justified in feeling that way, basic bottom line, is that sometimes we are RAW and feel the slightest “tinyest” thing in a BIG TIME WAY. I am saying that from my own experience.
Step back kfor a second, and JUST LOOK AT what you have been through.
1) a hyper religious upbringing that you now believe is a cult
2) parents who did not validate your feelings but instead persecuted you for your beliefs
3) a brother who was abusive & no one validated your abuse.
4) a man who is dangerous and threatening to your and your son’s safety,
5) living in a shelter
6) this has been going on for over two years
Now, who on God’s green earth would not be hypervigilent, stressed to the max, and so on? What would NOT trigger you?
Honey, you have been through enough to strangle a camel! I personally think you are doing well, and wonderfully considering what you have been through and are just now starting to relax a tiny bit. YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT! You are taking care of yourself and your son, going to therapy, taking medication….being good to yourself!
BTW TOWANDA that your X is finally not such a legal threat to your baby and you!
If someone here on LF WAS *(I’m not sayiing IS, or accusing anyone, but just maybe) rude to you, all I am asking of YOU is that you just put it to rest now and not stew over it. In the BIG scheme of things, it is a tiny thing.
When others don’t validate us (anywhere, any time) it can hurt, but also WE CAN control our feelings about it. There are people here from time to time who OPENLY attack me, I guess because I am a mouthy old witch and I do write articles here so they think maybe I’m judging or criticizing them, but you know what…I’m at a place NOW where I can just blow it off and say “well, old suzzie has her panties in a wad today” and not let it “get to me.” It took me a WHILE to get there.
There was a time here when when someone said something “tacky” to me I would be hurt and/or angry and feel like going away. Or worse, If someone thought I had attacked them, I would feel GUILT and FEAR that I might have driven someone away from LF.
Over all, I have really had VERY few problems on LF with people who “got offended” with me and those people for the most part ended up leaving in a huff or they got banned by Donna for abusive stuff to me AND/OR others.
So I have made the STEP forward in not letting things “get to me” like I used to when I was so RAW from all the BIG ABUSE.
It’s kind of like when you are sick, the “sound” of a fly crawling across the ceiling is HORRIBLE, but when you are well, you don’t even notice the fly. LOL When someone says something you think is “tacky” just “blow it off” and say to yourself “Wow, Old Suzzie has a problem today.” And, that is generally what it is, that or just poor wording (I do that a lot)
“Should I say sorry for saying sorry?” LOL Nah, just be your sweet self and keep on doing what you are doing. You are taking care of yourself and I can SEE MARKED PROGRESS in the steps you have made since you have been here, Jill! (((Hugs))) and my prayers for ALL OF US here at LF.
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jillsmith says:
Thanks Oxy and shabbychic,
I will miss you guys. I don’t think you owe me any kind of an apology at all, shabby. I adore you and was grateful for your words last night. I should have taken the time to tell you that. I was caught up in that nasty whirlwind last night and was too distracted. Thanks for both of your love and support. I wish you all the best.
Love,
Jill
(Report abusive comment)
skylar says:
Jill,
I hear that you are feeling unhappy about the things that were said last night. I assure you for myself and – I think I can speak for Kim – none of it was meant in a mean spirited way toward you. Not last night or ever before. People thought they were making helpful comments but maybe they just chose the wrong words.
I like you and respect what you have survived, Jill. I’ve never said anything derogatory toward you. My post a while back which mentioned you was only that I remember you asked about “cliques” on LF. Do you remember that? I thought it was unfortunate that anyone could come on this board and think that there are cliques and I hoped people would think about how we had created that kind of appearance and maybe try not to do that anymore. I WAS NOT BLAMING YOU FOR THAT APPEARANCE, I was asking the members to think about how WE create that appearance. I also said that it might be better if people felt more comfortable disagreeing about topics of discussion. Because it seems to me that there is some peer pressure here to agree with each other. I just don’t see that as a learning environment when dissenting opinions are doused. The fact is, that I had observed this but never said anything until I felt like I had been attacked repeatedly for choosing to have contact with my xP. Then someone was apologizing for posting in my defence and others apologized just for having posted after Oxy’s suggested we drop the subject. I thought, how ironic…who decides what information is good and what isn’t?
I don’t know how to convince you that we all like you. I can hear how hurt you are. Kim did apologize to you, she took full blame for her choice of words. I don’t know what else she could do. Please don’t be angry at her, she is very sensitive too.
BTW, I wasn’t drunk, I did take half a lunesta, and you took an AMBIEN, so we were on (almost) the same page (my doctor doesn’t approve of ambien he says its too harsh). I like to joke around with people on this board in the evening. I like to have a laugh and encourage others to make comic retorts, I thought everyone enjoyed these cyber-parties where we PRETEND to be waving skillets and drinks. That’s why I was elusive when EC asked what I was drinking. I didn’t want to admit it was apple juice. OK?
On another subject, that guy, EC, was actually very informative for me. He mentioned Frame Control and I had never heard of it. I have been using the word “stories” to explain why the P’s can lie and stick to their lies no matter how you present the truth to them.
I began researching Frame Control today and it’s amazing the information I found. It’s a term pickup artists are using for manipulating women. P’s do this naturally from childhood, but there are entire books written about the techniques, for people who don’t have this natural ability but want to be like a P. (pathetic?)
I think this is really important information for us to have so we know when we are being targetted by a PUA (pick up artist) This is some of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community
For me, having this information gives me a big boost in identifying RED FLAGS. If someone needs to use “techniques” to get to know me, I don’t think I want to know them.
(Report abusive comment)
jillsmith says:
Skylar,
Thanks for taking the time to post this to me. I’m still confused about all of the gas lighting (is that the phrase?) that I have seen the last couple of times it has been on here. I don’t know where or who it’s coming from. I have my theories, but they are just that and not fact. The only thing I DO know is what I feel and I have to honor my feelings and heal. Yes, Oxy is right that we have a choice to how we react to other people. No one MAKES us feel a certain way. I’ve always had this view. We also have a right to speak up for ourselves and leave unhealthy environments. This is part of being emotionally healthy.
I’m not mad at you. I’m not mad or angry at Kim. I felt very hurt and confused by Kim last night, but she explained things. The more I think about it, the more I believe her intentions, but her words still hurt me. She didn’t intend to do so though. I’m not going to waste my time on any silly grudges and wish you all the best. Take good care of yourselves. I’m not leaving because I’m mad or want someone to feel guilty. I woud never want someone to feel a negative emotion because of me. Especially not any of you who have been hurt. I just have to do what is right for me.
I’ll admit I was mad last night and hurt and confused. Today I am being empowered and taking controll back of my life. I felt like I gave that control away last night and let a handful of people hijack my recovery. I’m the one that allowed that and I need to be stronger. I’m working on it.
Take care. I’m sorry for being so suspect of you. I just don’t really know what to make of all of this, but I’m just going to let it all go. I am very hurt, so I’m going to go heal. I don’t need this in my life right now. I’m in control of who I let in and don’t in my life. I have not exercised this basic right and need enough in my life in the past, so I honor myself by doing so now. I know that not all of you agree with this personal approach and philosophy that I have chosen to apply to my own life. I’m me though and I’m the one in charge of my life, so I’m doing it anyway. Please take good care of yourselves and thanks for sharing your friendship and support.
(Report abusive comment)
skylar says:
EC, I’m not allowed to talk to you. sorry, it isn’t fair, but I don’t own this blog, Donna does and those are her rules. You will have to ask her for permission or something.
I do appreciate the FC info.
(Report abusive comment)
skylar says:
Jill, gas-lighting is when you tell people that the sky is falling or there will be breadlines, the aliens are coming, you should worry about this or that.
I thought I was very keen to gas-lighting but I didn’t notice any. I would ask you to give me an example but I’m afraid someone might take offense if you point out their behavior.
Oh, I have an idea. Use me as an example, maybe I did something that you consider gaslighting? I won’t be offended if you tell me. If I don’t think I did it, I will simply explain why it was a misunderstanding.
(Report abusive comment)
Donna Andersen says:
Jill Smith,
On behalf of Lovefraud, I want to apologize for any statements posted in these comments that were hurtful to you.
I also want to thank you for the information you posted about the Mormons. It was very enlightening. It must have been awful to grow up under those conditions.
Congratulations on your victory about your child. That is the best news ever!
(Report abusive comment)
jillsmith says:
Thank you, Donna. I think that my over-sensitivity is also one factor. At least I made it out of mormonism.
LF: Did any of you hear about the 6 men in MO who sexually abused family members for years? They are from a branch of the Mormon church. Actually, the sect they happen to be in is the exact same as the original mormon religion, but without the polygamy because it’s illegal. The main sect has changed a lot of the earlier mormon doctrine, but this sect is the very original mormon church. This kind of thing is very common in mormon families. It was not just happening in my mormon family. Here’s a link: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/.....google_cnn
Okay. Now I’ll give it a rest because I know this is not a mormon recovery forum. I just thought the story of these guys had a similar ring to it as other major sex abuse sociopathic crimes we have talked about on here. Thank you for caring and being interested in what I posted about mormonism. I have have been dealing with the scars they left since I first left their organization in 2000. I have begun to think I may never get past it. Thanks for your kind message though. I sound very negative because I’m having a very hard day after last night. This is the hardest day I have had since being with my abuser.
(Report abusive comment)
jillsmith says:
FYI: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the same thing as mormon. Mormon is just the nick-name.
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blueskies says:
Jill, can I jump in with a big hug here, I’ve been reading since I got in from work a couple of hours ago(work!!!I got a job!!! oh yeah look at me go!…ahem)x.I am really sorry you are having a crap day:( xx Lots of love to you lady.x
(Report abusive comment)
blueskies says:
Just because I think this is a troll; Allah means ‘god’, and whatever you call it, or feel it, there is no fear there in my book.x speakin from a spiritual of no abode point of view:)x
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I’ve been gone for a few days, and just checked in and read this thread. First, I want to send healing energy to everyone who’s been discombobulated by this exchange. And, as a professional communicator, I’m offering some feedback on what’s been going on. (No one asked for my feedback, so take it for what it’s worth.)
Someone in the thread mentioned their confusion about whether sincere compliments could be wrong to say. And I may have created some of that confusion in previous posts.
If we have a need for reassurance, a compliment can feel like a very good thing. More than that, it can feel like a sort of medicine for our lack of self-confidence. It can make us feel stronger and sort of “filled in” where we felt a little empty before.
So it really depends on our needs. But the risk of compliments — and the reason they become less important or sometimes even unwanted as we get stronger — is that they are judgments about us. That is, they are other people’s opinions. If we are feeling needy, those opinions may make us feel better, but they can also trigger our feelings of insecurity or inadequacy, if they push the wrong button. If we are feeling stronger, we may find them intrusive, something like getting unasked-for advice.
The same problem exists with unasked-for advice. Unless we know exactly what kind of feedback or suggestions another person is looking for, we risk sounding like we’re judging them or like we don’t think they’re competent to make their own decisions.
The really dangerous combination is compliments and unasked-for advice. Depending on we are with our healing, this can be fine. People who are in the early stages of trying to figure out what happened to them and struggling with self-destructive or self-hating thoughts or behaviors are often grateful for clear judgments and advice. But once they move into the “angry phase,” which may not be angry all the time but is involved with boundary-building and experimentation with judging and blaming, they become a lot more self-protective and resistant to be judged or told what to do, even by the most experienced or well-intentioned person.
The angry phase is when we really start to get well. But it doesn’t mean that we’re invulnerable. We’re building invulnerability — that is being our own authorities — but until we’re pretty advanced, we’re still prone to fear of other people hurting us (or viewing other people as just as sensitive as we are). So we can get all involved in protecting each other and trying to protect ourselves at the same time, while we’re also trying to be more assertive and self-referenced.
As long as we’re all going through this, there is really no way to avoid the kind of tangles that appeared in this thread. But there are some things we can do to make them less likely.
One of the most important is to talk about ourselves, rather than other people. If we’re reacting to something someone else said, it’s better to talk about what it means to us, rather than talking about that person. If we have thoughts about the other person, it’s better to characterize them clearly as related to the way we see things, how we do things, what has worked for us.
This is a place for mutual support, and in getting through our recoveries, our definition of mutual support changes. There was a time in my recovery when I needed some one to give me permission to think and feel the way I did. I wasn’t sure if I was justified in feeling hurt or entitled to feel angry. Later in my recovery, I needed to hear that my judging and boundary-building were good things, and that I wasn’t becoming a permanently angry person. Later I needed to be comforted as I went through the process of letting go of illusions and beliefs about my ex, myself and other things that came up. Later, I needed encouragement as I was rebuilding my life. Later, I needed honest feedback as I began to reach out to share what I’d learned with other people, because at that point I was building something outside myself and I needed to know how I was doing.
My point in going through my progression of needs is that the only things that hit home at any given point where what I needed then. The other things simply rolled off my back or, occasionally, upset me.
I know that most of us are so engaged in our own healing and the challenges it creates that we can’t always stop to think about what the other person needs or, even better, to ask them. We want and need to express ourselves. And one of the very good reasons for that is because we need to articulate our thinking as it’s evolving. To say, as I believe Skylar said, what we need to hear. In a way, we’re all practicing being who we want to be when we come through this.
Which brings me to the second thing that really helps in these situations. If someone is triggered, what they need more than anything else is acknowledgment and caring interest. Not apologies. Not explanations. Especially if we don’t really understand what triggered them. Saying something like, “Wow, you sound really upset. You said it was about this. Can you talk about it more so we understand?” give that person a chance to talk it out and clarify for his or herself what is really going on.
To do this, we have to let go of our own insecurities and feelings of responsibility for other people’s feelings, and just focus on them. It also gives us the opportunity to relate to how they feel. “That sounds like I felt when this happened to me…”
When one of these situations occurs, and the insecurities and blaming behavior start snowballing, we may have to do this with several people, but it’s worth it. Because each of those people get a chance to talk about their own triggers, and hopefully begin to work them out for themselves. And for those of us who are conscious and untriggered enough to facilitate them, it’s good practice in letting other people have their own feelings without feeling like it’s about us.
I know that may sound very odd. After all if they’re blaming us, it must be about us. But the truth is, it’s not. It’s about them and something that’s going on inside of them. If I trigger someone else’s feelings, the best thing I can do (assuming that person isn’t so threatened or angry that all communication is cut off) is to ask for more information. To explore what’s going on. So we both are clear about what the issue is — not just what I did, but more importantly what was triggered.
If we can ultimately get to the point where I said, “Now I understand what happened and I understand why you got so upset,” and the other person can say, “Now I understand why I was so upset, and it really wasn’t about you at all,” it’s over. And more than that, we’ve probably bonded through the process in a good way.
So as usual, a long post. But I hope there’s something useful in here.
Kathy
,
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jillsmith says:
I have some thoughts on compliments. The reason why I compliment is a good one. Despite the rest of my family and certain ways she was taught to think, my mom was an extremely good mom and person. I believed her when she told me she had no idea I was being raped by my brother. She was a very loving person. There were over 1,000 people at her funeral in the town of 40,000 where I grew up. Part of it is because my parents are well known in this community. She was a semi-famous (in the Western region of the US) artist who was extremely successful in her art career. She was named Woman of the Year in my city and my dad is a city councilman. Not everything about my family was dysfunctional, just most. I lost the only good thing about my family when she died. I lost my very best friend in the whole world and this is the anniversary of her death, a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been thinking about her a lot. Anyway, she taught me some great things because she was such a loving woman who helped so, so many people through numerous ways. She was named one of the top 8 people who make a difference out of the whole STATE where I grew up. Anyway, when I was in Jr. High, I specifically remember some advice she gave me that I try my hardest to live by because I think it’s profound. I was telling her something good about a friend of mine and she asked me if I had told this friend this is how I feel. I told her I had not. She then told me that I should and I should NEVER hold back a compliment. She said that there are enough people in the world who only say things to put people down and that I should do my best to counter-act this by telling the person every single time I think something good about them. My compliments are sincere and the motivation is deeply personal and loving. Now you can understand where I’m coming from a little bit more.
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Donna Andersen says:
Thank you Kathy.
I would like to add that these painful situations often occur when some predator or troll comes to Lovefraud to stir the pot. That is why it is so important not to engage them. Some people may enjoy poking at the snake, but the entire exercise creates negative energy that affects all the other exchanges. Then we end up with misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
So please, you see someone who you feel is here to cause trouble, please report an abusive comment and then ignore that person.
Our process did not work last night. I received no abusive comment reports.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
Great big Hug from me too, and all you guys and gals!
I read a book years ago written in the 1800s by this young woman who was the like 20th wife of the 2nd prophet out in Utah (CRS with NAMES) and she told how she had been forced to marry him when she was a teenager and how he was an OLD man at the time. He put her to work as
FREE labor with some of his other wives on a remote dairy farm.
If she had refused to marry him, the Prophet would have had a “vision” that her father would have had to go on a missionary mission (at his own expense of course) and with multiple wives and kids left behind to have no support.
I have several friends who are of that faith, and THEY are good people, but there were also “good people” drank the poson in Jonestown too. I’m sure “Rev” Tony Alamo’s followers that gave him their 9 year old daughters as his plural wives also might have been deceived by his “speaking directly with god” I know it is not funny, in any way, when ANY belief system is used to force people to do things against their sense and will in order to be “pleasing to god”–AS INTERPRETED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
My “fundamentalist” upbringing was not a great deal less emotionally harsh than yours, but at least I did not have to wear the “underware.” When I started investigating what I DID believe, and removed the barriers to a SPIRITUAL relationship with my view of God, it actually made me have a stronger faith than before. I read the Bible with NEW eyes now. Without the angry, harsh prejudice and confusion I had before due to how I was taught.
I got a new appreciation for hypocracy in many “relilgous” people who try to preach their gospel at the point of an emotional spear. or an emotional club. Radicals of any sect of any religion who are willing to “convert” others at bayonet point scare me. Whether that is literal or figurative.
9/11 was caused by people who viewed anyone who was not their religion as less than human. this is not a new idea, it has been around for a long time during the days when one group would burn the others at the stake (depending on who the king believed was right). Probably going back to pre-history.
I’m glad you have a support group for this emotional abuse you suffered at the hands of your family in that aspect. I think you are on a solid path to healing Jill, you have all your ducks in a row! (((hugs))))
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jillsmith says:
Kathy,
Thanks for this. There is a lot to learn from in your post and it rings true for me. I have been flustered at the fact that I can feel so strong one minute and be good at drawing boundaries and letting things bounce off, then BOOM! Out of nowhere, I am triggered and feel attacked. It’s so frustrating because I have never dealt with this before the P. I think it might have something to do with PTSD. What do you think? I wasn’t like this before, and I was abused as a child. Why am I going through such a different process this time around? Why is what happened with my P so much more devestating to my life and self-identity than what my brother did to me? Was I numb before?
Your post gives me hope, because if I interpret it correctly, the fact that I finally have gotten to the anger stage and felt that emotion I was to taught to suppress my whole life, might actually be a good thing and mean I’m healing. This is a positive thing for me to focus on because I’m so scared of anger. I’m scared of the feeling. I hate it. It feels foreign and out of control. Anyway, I learned a lot about myself from your post and I think it’s very true.
I think I was so sensitive to Kim because I have said on the board so many times that my area of focus is on getting stronger and re-building my crushed self-esteem. It took a lot to analyze myself like this and a lot of courage to admit this to others. That’s why I think I felt attacked when Kim said, “I’m certainly not saying you are a bad person…You’re not. But I think you have some real self esteem problems.” I interpreted it as, “You have some real problems”, in a not-nice tone, even though she did in fact, not say it that way. It felt hurtful when I had just shared happy news and was feeling strong. It brought BACK my self-esteem issues and made me feel weak, embarrassed and unwelcome. It wasn’t her intention and it had everthing to do with my issues and vulnerablities because I had already said I was working on my self-esteem. I felt like my weak spot was punched. I’m very self-critical and hard on myself and the area I’m hardest on myself since the P is the fact that I’m now too sensitive and struggle with my self-esteem. In admitting this numerous times to the board in many posts, I made myself very vulnerable to the board. I felt exploited, but again, it has to do with my issues, not someone’s elses. Thanks for this insight, Kathy.
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jillsmith says:
Thanks for the support and compassion also, Oxy, blueskies, heaven and shabbychic. I so hope I’m not leaving anyone out, but all of the support has helped. I’m going to go take a nice lavender bubble bath to clear my unrested brain before my little one wakes from his nap. I’m going to go take care of me.
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jillsmith says:
P.S. I feel badly for adding to the contention of the board. I should not have done that and should have just walked away when I felt triggered. It’s a tricky thing when sticking up for ourselves the first time to hold back some. I was a little bit out of control with it and it detracted from the board and others’ healing and for that I apologize. It was not my intention, but I can now see that is what I did and I owe you all a sincere apology, so I am truly sorry for any uncomfort, annoyance or pain I have caused any of you. You don’t deserve that.
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jillsmith says:
P.P.S. I’m especially sorry to you, Donna. You put a lot of work into this board and you are the reason it’s even here and has helped me heal in the past, through certain people on here. When something like what happened last night happens, it takes aways from that and the general intention of the board and this is not fair to you. I am sorry.
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Donna Andersen says:
Jill Smith,
No worries. I’m just glad you seem to be feeling better.
It sounds to me like you’re moving through the healing process. I, too, spent much of my younger life numb, although not due to abuse (thank God). Still, when I was just learning to experience and cope with emotions, it wasn’t easy. But we get better with practice.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
jillsmith, that was a great post. I saw you were leaving for a bubble bath, but maybe you’ll catch this later.
As far as anger goes, if you haven’t read my articles on the angry phase in the series I was writing, you might find them useful. (Or if you read them before, they might resonate with you more now.)
I suspect that PSTD is a good way of thinking about some of the feelings you describe. But in a subtle way. If we are forced to deal with situations in which we cannot respond honestly about our feelings and needs (which is always the case with childhood abuse), we can pretty much assume that we’ve stifled our normal and natural anger responses. Another way of looking at this is that we get unnaturally tolerant of disrespectful behavior toward us or the pain it causes.
Learning to re-activate that natural anger response can be quite an experience. And I think that one of the big gifts that we get from sociopaths is a situation where, in recovery, it becomes abundantly clear that we should be angry. We don’t have to stifle anymore.
But untangling those wires is complicated. We tend to relate anger to violence or abuse, and we think that it’s dangerous or unattractive. In fact, the full spectrum of anger goes from simple confusion to dispassionate rejection, with lots of things in between including resentment, outrage, blaming and judging. The links between the various forms of anger is that is a reaction to something that we regard as a threat or a source of pain. Anger is a fundamental reaction that comes out of deep survival instinct, though it can become pretty sophisticated as we understand how to use these feelings for our own benefit.
What I mean by that is that anger has some interesting characteristics. It’s very focusing. It narrows our attention on the source of the threat. It generates physical and mental energy to help us deal quickly with the issue. Although these feelings begin in the deepest and oldest part of the brain, they quickly move “up” the brain to the rational thinking and planning areas. And most important, anger is a more advanced response to a threat than fear. Rather than short-circuiting us as fear tends to do, anger engages our resources.
People who are working through a history of trauma or abuse, or who have been out of touch with their capacity for anger for a long time, tend to have a lot of backed up anger. This may feel like explosive resentment, but it’s actually a lot of old system alerts that have never been addressed so that they turn off. (This can also be experienced as free-floating anxiety). So it may feel a little scary when that capacity first engages again. It’s normal to feel like everything is setting us off, because there are all kinds of PSTD-style reminders of unaddressed issues.
The cure is to work through the anger to find its original sources (“what am I really angry about here?”), and target the anger on its true causes. This works even if the situation is long in the past. I’m an incest survivor. By the time I really started to work on these issues, my father was a feeble, senile old man. It would have been pointless to vent my rage on him in real life. But I did it in memory, demanding justice for myself and getting honest with how I really felt about what happened and how wrong it was. I did a lot of raging through letters written to people who were long gone. And in doing so, took myself back. I had no choice but to live, feel and act like a victim then. But now I can judge it as someone who really cares about me, and refuse to understand and condone what was reprehensible behavior.
It’s crucial to do this work in order to get better. Later when we have fully stood up for ourselves, judged everything that needs judging in order to respect our own experiences, we may become able to also maintain some empathy or understanding. For example, I know that my father was a product of his upbringing, as was my mother who didn’t protect me. It’s very advanced work to be able to hold onto outrage on one side and empathy on the other. And we can’t rush getting there. First we need to get clear and have honest, normal feelings about what was done to us. This is taking care of ourselves. Then, if we have the energy and willingness, we can be compassionate. But not before. Otherwise we’re continuing to make our wellbeing less important than that of our perpetrators.
Just one more thought about this. People who are working on codependency issues have to learn to take care of themselves first, and limit their commits to other people to the “excess” resources they have left after they’ve met their own needs. My perspective is that the underlying cause of codependency is this inability to access our own anger, because we have been trained that it is not safe to defend our own entitlements (To love, respect, acknowledgment, appreciation, etc.) That is why the pivotal part of the healing journey is the angry phase.
Anger changes our orientation. Up to that point, it’s all about things outside of us. What happened to us. How other people behave. What how we have to manage those people or circumstances in order to keep ourselves loved or safe. Anger gets us back in our own skins. It makes it about us, how we feel, what we think, how we were affected, and what we’re going to do in more direct way to take care of ourselves. After anger, we start reevaluating everything in terms of whether it is good for us, and we start rebuildng ourselves and our lives in more positive ways.
From everything you say, jillsmith, you sound to me that you’re doing great work and moving right now the path. You mentioned in one of your posts that you didn’t know if you would ever get over your past. To me, that’s a statement that indicates that you’re moving into another stage, the one where we face our losses, admit that we are damaged and we can’t change that, grieve our losses, and finally get to the good part of figuring out what we have left to work with. It’s always pretty amazing when we give up focusing on what’s lost and turn our attention to what we have. And who we are, despite all that stuff in our past.
You’re doing good work and you’re moving in the right direction. When my therapist said that to me, I was always relieved to hear it. I pass it on to you.
Affectionately –
Kathy
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kim frederick says:
Skylar, Oxy, Kathleen, I want to thank you all for not rushing in to BLAME me for the chaos that insued, last night.
I felt really BAD about it…And had to decide if I wanted to come to the sight today or not, knowing there would still be talk of it.
I sincerly apologized to Jill. On several occasions, and I’m still sorry my comments hurt her. I learned something about giving advise……………
However, at some point it’s possible that I might feel hurt and defensive, too. I might feel angry. I might feel gas-lighted and attacked.
I don’t like being talked about in the third person, behind my back. I don’t like feeling criticized. Does anyone?
Last night, when I realized I’d hit a nerve (unintentionally) and did my very best to just express that I undersood that I’d hurt her and I took responsibility for it. I didn’t get defensive and lash out, even though I was called mean, mean, mean.
Today, I’ve been accused of turning LF into a what was it “hateful and arrogant space.”
I have seen people attack others on this sight, but I don’t consider myself one of them.
Thank-you for letting me vent, and to let you’all know I have feelings, too. Thanks again to those of you that undersood.
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persephone7 says:
Kim: I feel your pain…
All I can say is that it seems we’ve all come to this site as some kind of sanctuary in a way. Having read through some of this thread, it seems everyone can try to remember that. And as well as we think we get to ‘know’ one another by our posts, we should also remember – as I think Oxy or Kathleen mentioned, that everyone is at a different stage of their healing – and vulnerability. But most of all, as much as someone might share their background and story – and as much as we share what seems to be the common experience of being with these people who have totally confused and hurt us – we are our own best judges and therapists deep down. The hardest part for me has always been trusting that voice within. It’s good to allow for some time without posting to really be introspective, not necessarily isolate ourselves – but I know sometimes I can feel a bit crazy when I read or have gotten too much advice and input from others – sometimes it’s hard to tell, but letting people into our most personal experiences can muddy, not clear the waters. Don’t misunderstand me – I’m not arguing or saying I’m not appreciative or support the idea of sharing with others – only that there seems to be a problem when we get too enmeshed with each other – this latest situation and one last week shows everyone trying to make amends, be understood, be ‘nice’ (which isn’t necessarily BAD) -it’s just that we’re all trying to preserve that healthy sense of being kind and nice individuals, and we’re all imperfect at times at that – it’s a part of life, isn’t it – just striking that balance of knowing ourselves and still reaching out in healthy ways to others.
Lately, it seems like I keep hearing the old song ‘Girls Just want to have Fun’ – and I’ve thought, Damn, that’s really what we all want at this point – we want all the heavy good stuff, too(like REAL love) and we don’t want to argue or fuss or criticize or be criticized what seems unfairly – but basically… we girls (and guys) just want at this point to ‘have some pure, unadulterated, non-obsessive FUN!!! (EB, you can add some more !!!!’s,please!)
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persephone7 says:
Wanted to clarify – when I said ‘sometimes I can feel a bit crazy when I read or have gotten too much advice and input from others’ I was referring to books I’ve read,
and certain people I’ve confided in here and there – AS WELL AS LF reading and sharing. It’s that whole gamut of input and I’m just speaking for myself – at times I know
I have to kind of put myself on input ‘pause’ so my own thoughts, good, bad or indifferent can filter in. So I can really have a chance to absorb the experience and feelings that are going on RIGHT NOW in my life, however messy it feels, however still unresolved – it’s MY experience and no one else can really KNOW it but me, no one else – however instructive it is to know someone else has gone down a similar path – it is still just that, similar. It’s an obvious statement, but I feel we need to honor our own experience as being unique to us – and know it is that way for others and we can never totally understand or judge it for someone else.
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kim frederick says:
Persephone, Thanks sooo much for responding.
You hit it on the head when you talked about everyone trying to be “nice”.
That has been an issue for me most of my life. My identity has relied qite heavily on it, at times. I remeber being about 10 and my Dad pulled me aside, and said, “Kim, not everyone will always like you.” Try not to take everything so personally.”
I remember my best friend telling me, when I was,21? 22? ” You are the nicest one of all of us.”
Well, of course at the time it meant a lot to me……
But when I began recovering from the devistation of a marriage to a Narcissist, who also had OCD, was career military, was very opininated and out-spoken, whose pesonality so overwhelmed me, I felt invisible and wiped out.
I had been critisized, talked-over, interupted, de-valued, and ignored for a really long time, and I was hurt to my core. In therapy I learned about anger, and self-esteem, and assertiveness. I learned to shrug my shoulders and say “suit yourself”. I learned how not to apologize all the time. I remember telling my husband I was sorry for slamming his car door? His response, “You’re always sorry.”
I wrote these poems at that time in my life:
Marilyn checked her make-up, then stretched across the bed,
Fingers casually curled six inches above her head. Posed in such a way she looked more sweet than dead.
That’s what Mailynn did. Instead I just got angry.
————————————————————————
Annie did her best to be domestic, baked bread for entertainment, after stripping wax, the way the neighbors did.
Annie hid her boredom with her bottle, underneith the linens, in the closit down the hall. Annie had it all. Except she didn’t have Annie.
————————————————————————
In this photograph you are whisker stubbled, base-ball capped, and your mouth is open. Your orange T-shirt shouts to the fans in your circle. Your hands fly in wide arcs above
your head. You berate the butcher the baker, the candle-stick maker,
your opinions have beeen cast in stone. I make myself
small. Pull in my head, fade into my dress.
I hear an air-plane roar, lylocks scent the air, then beer from your explossive breath, orange colored breath in the wind.
You are as magnifiscent as the orange sun, setting.
————————————————————————
The other night when I hurt Jill’s feelings, I had been feeling very light-hearted and playfull when a different poster (not Jill)starting posting posts that seemed to me were self-doubting . and apologetic. I saw my old-hurt self in this and even said to her, “we are all so sensitive and insecure.” I was trying to tell her, “hey, its okay.”
Well, this went on back and forth a few more times.
At this point EB posted on another thread about not engaging with EC, and I realized that I had begun to get caught up in all that, again. Then Jill posted, and at that point I never
again went back to EC. I was focussed on talking to Jill, but think my mind was somehow still on the conversations, and the FEELINGS I had triggered by my conversation with the first poster.
So Jill, I think what I said to you the other night was something I was saying to my ( I want to say old-) self. The one who has self-esteem issues, who wants to be so good. Who wants to be known as the nice girl, but who is so very sad and hurt.
It’s been a long time since I was in group therapy, but it can be pretty confrontational, where others tell it like they see it, and I think I made the mistake of thinking of LF in terms of my own therapy years ago. I am so sorry.
And isn’t it funny I still have the same issues today.
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kim frederick says:
Wow, writing down those old poems and thinking about the past, those old feeling has me crying like a baby.
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persephone7 says:
Kim: I barely have time before work to write but your poems and thoughts so moved me. They are so thoughtfully and artistically put down – you are an artist yourself-
and I related very much in what you expressed about the unfortunate way you and others (and me in my ill-chosen sarcasm to Jill, not intending to hurt her personally as
well) ended up triggering each other. Like having your boss get you upset and then coming home and kicking (not literally) the poor cat who comes to happily greet you!
Gotta go, but thanks Kim for that post, makes my day and I think sometimes we created the sociopaths to deal with our own anger and ‘niceness’ issues, that’s why it’s
so painful and wrenching – in a way, before them and after – we have to be careful that we don’t chase our own tails – and continue to be our own internal sociopath – being
unreasonable and even cruel to ourselves, which can still spill out onto unsuspecting others.
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kim frederick says:
Thank you Perseph, for taking the time to respond. Thank you also for the lovely compliments on my poetry…..It used to be my therapy.
It seemed that in that marriage I was not allowed to have any sense of myself, at all. He was so domineering that he had to tell me how to wash a dish, how to hang up clothes on a clothes line, what brands to by at the grocery store. It was as if I wasn’t competent to do anything. I used to call him Mr. Clean, and tell him he was a better woman than I was. I t wasn’t until much later that I realized how terrified he must be… and exhausted. He must have thought that at any minute the world would fall apart if he wasn’t constantly monitoring it to make sure it was functioning properly. Poor Guy. LOL.
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