D.C. Sniper killing spree was a plot to win child custody
John Allen Muhammad, the D.C. Sniper, will die by lethal injection tomorrow.
John Allen Muhammad and his teenaged accomplice, Lee Boyd Malvo, terrorized the Washington, D.C. area for three weeks in October 2002. In the end, 10 people were dead and three were wounded. The victims, selected at random, were shot while doing mundane chores like pumping gas and loading Halloween decorations into a car.
I’m sure you remember the terror of the killings. But you may not realize that the killing spree was an escalation of a child custody battle.
Psychological abuse
Mildred Muhammad, the ex-wife of John Allen Muhammad, spoke at the Battered Mothers Custody Conference in Albany last January. Her story was compelling—and heartbreaking.
Mildred was married to Muhammad for 12 years, and they had three children together. Muhammad served in the Gulf War and when he returned, he became abusive.
“His behavior turned to possessiveness,” Mildred said. “I couldn’t do anything right. He was trained in psychological warfare—he was a combat engineer—and he used me as his guinea pig.”
Muhammad didn’t hit her, but inflicted psychological abuse. “Every emotion I displayed, he used against me,” Mildred said. Finally, in 1999, she asked for a divorce.
Kidnapped children
Before, during and after their divorce, Muhammad threatened to kill Mildred. He drained their bank account and kidnapped the children, taking them to Antigua for 18 months. Mildred was forced to hide in a women’s shelter for eight months in the Tacoma, Washington area.
She could not afford legal representation. So while in the women’s shelter, Mildred taught herself the law so she could represent herself. Eventually the children were located. Mildred went to court, won her case and was awarded full custody. Then she fled across the country to Maryland.
Muhammad found her. And, Mildred says, that’s why he went on the killing spree. Muhammad planned to kill her, and the rest of the murders were an elaborate ruse to cover up her murder. She would just be another of the random victims, and he could show up as the grieving ex-husband, and claim the children.
Want to win
When John Allen Muhammad was brought to trial, the prosecutor put forth Mildred’s contention that the killing spree was intended cover up the eventual death of his ex-wife. The court, however, ruled that there was insufficient evidence to support the argument.
But after all the stories I’ve heard from Lovefraud readers, I think it’s totally plausible. Sociopaths want to win. Nothing else matters to them. I believe John Allen Muhammad was willing to kill 10 innocent people, at random, just to get his way.
If ever there was a case that demonstrated the lengths a sociopath will go to in order to win, this is it.
No conscience
According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, Muhammad’s lawyers filed an appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court last week, claiming that the killer is mentally ill and delusional.
But Paul Ebert, the Virginia prosecutor who won Muhammad’s death sentence, said, “This guy had absolutely no conscience. He killed people just like they were flies.”
Mildred also does not believe that her ex-husband is mentally ill.
Support for other victims
Mildred has written a book about her ordeal called Scared Silent. She has also founded an organization in Maryland to support survivors of domestic violence called After the Trauma.
“I started After the Trauma because of my own personal domestic violence experience and thought of all the other women in similar situations who need day-to-day assistance, as I did,” Mildred writes on her website. “After the Trauma is women who are transitioning from a domestic violence situation and are ready to take the next step into ‘freedom.’”
Like many of us here at Lovefraud, Mildred Muhammad has been through an incredible ordeal. And like many of us, she emerged on the other side stronger, and willing to help others along the path to healing.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Elizabeth Conley says:
Note that Mildred is far from “incompetent”:
“She could not afford legal representation. So while in the women’s shelter, Mildred taught herself the law so she could represent herself. Eventually the children were located. Mildred went to court, won her case and was awarded full custody. Then she fled across the country to Maryland.”
“Mildred has written a book about her ordeal called Scared Silent. She has also founded an organization in Maryland to support survivors of domestic violence called After the Trauma.
“I started After the Trauma because of my own personal domestic violence experience and thought of all the other women in similar situations who need day-to-day assistance, as I did,” Mildred writes on her website. “After the Trauma is women who are transitioning from a domestic violence situation and are ready to take the next step into ‘freedom.’””
The Ns, Ps and Ss will tell us over and over again that we’re pathetic subhumans. They’ll say it so often and with such confidence that we’ll come to more than half believe it.
The supercilious onlookers, who’ve never been targeted themselves, will tell us the same thing. “We were targeted because we’re weak and broken.” This explanation helps them to feel safe and superior, but it works for them at our expense.
What a crock: we were targeted for exploitation because we were kinder than average and unusually competent.
Don’t buy into that “broken, wounded, pathetic you” brain washing. It’s just a new form of abuse and exploitation.
Just get on with your kind, competent life, only a bit warier from here on out.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:46am
OxDrover says:
I well remember that event and following it in the news. I chalked it up at the time to just another rage-type killing by some angry nut case, but Mildred’s version of lthe motive for the killing makes PERFECT SENSE IN A PSYCHOPATH’S MIND, and sounds like something that my P-son and his Trojan Horse P could have come up with.
I am glad that this woman has risen from her ashes like the Phoneix, but better than that, she has TURNED THOSE ASHES INTO GOLD for helping other women in her own previous condition.
I award this woman the GOLDEN SKILLET! and my prayers for her continued success for the rest of her life!@ If anyone should believe her stories it is US!
EC your inner-warrior is HOT today!!!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:32am
Glinda says:
“The supercilious onlookers, who’ve never been targeted themselves, will tell us the same thing. “We were targeted because we’re weak and broken.” This explanation helps them to feel safe and superior, but it works for them at our expense.
What a crock: we were targeted for exploitation because we were kinder than average and unusually competent.”
Amen EC. Amen.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:35am
jillsmith says:
As a domestic violence survivor, I appreciate what Mildred is doing to help domestic violence victims. I admire her for getting out there and spreading the word by educating people. I’m still pretty quiet about it to people I meet. I talk about it on this board, but the only other time I talk about it is in my weekly therapy sessions. I don’t go around telling people about what happened to me. I’m also always with my son all of the rest of the time and I don’t want him hearing that about his father. It’s not healthy for him. I would like to get the a point someday, after I am healed and feel find, to volunteer somewhere or something to help people with what I’ve been through. What Mildred is doing is on such a large scale though and I really admire that. I can’t believe what a horrific tragedy this whole situation was. This man was truly evil.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:20am
jillsmith says:
Edit: “I would like to get to a point someday, after I am healed and feel fine,”
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:21am
jillsmith says:
Elizabeth Conley,
I agree with your point of view 100% and it needed to be said. Thank you for articulating so well what I feel to be true. Since I have started viewing it this way, my self-esteem has really been increasing and I have started to actually feel HAPPINESS again. It was a foreign feeling, but it feels so good and light to start feeling it again.
I was blaming myself so much that the guilt was killing me slowly. Once I started remembering the great things about myself, that I’m not worthless now and that I did not make this happen (he did); I’ve been getting better. Finally. That’s what worked for me at least. Different points of view and different methods work for different people.
I was so effected by my PTSD that I didn’t trust anyone at all and was wary of EVERYONE and my ability to read EVERYONE, so once I remembered that I actually used to be a good judge of character and was a strong individual, I started trusting in myself more. The P was my one big mess-up. I don’t typically have people like him in my life. So, finally realizing this has set me free a little bit.
Now, I’m finally WANTING to be with friends and meet new people instead of just forcing myself to do it because it’s “emotionally healthy” for recovery. If it’s a sunny day, I’m actually excited to get out and explore with my baby and go to the beach. Before, I did it because I was “supposed to” or because my baby need to do it to be healthy. I was going through the motions of getting better because I really wanted to get better, but not enough to actually enjoy anything. I had too much anxiety and was on such high-alert that I couldn’t enjoy anything. I was too exhausted. I was stuck and the longer I started to stay in that phase, the longer I started to actually become that person. New ways of thinking and being were starting to become habits and starting to become ME. I literally woke up one day a month ago and realized this. I realized that I don’t want to be that person and that I wanted to be ME. So, I’ve started to remember who ME is and what I like about myself. Before, my heart just wasn’t into the recovery process. I guess I needed to be sad and mad for awhile. Everyone’s path is different.
I have a long way to go in recovering, but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel now and for the first time, I have hope for the future and am learning to enjoy the present and actually BE in the present. I’m learning to like myself again and think I’m smart again, so eventually I can trust myself fully again and be whole. I don’t want to stop being a kind person because that’s who I am. It’s in my nature and I don’t want to change my nature. I want to be that kind person at the level I was before, but I want to always be kind to myself FIRST and stay away from people with red flags.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:38am
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
The post above shows how far you have already come from when you first came here on LF TERRIFIED (and justifiably so I might add) I have also been TERRIFIED, and it is not a feeling I want to have again. Our world is not 100% safe, and not everyone is “nice” some people are just EVIL (as you pointed out about this man) and their motivations are so foreign to us that we couldn’t even comprehend such twisted “reasoning”—much less do it—-and I think that is why so many people can’t or won’t see the truth in this kind of “evil” as it makes the world too scary a place for them. They think there has to obe an “understandable” (from a normal point of view) motive to every act. It is a scary thing to admit to yourself that there ARE evil people in this world who would plan and do this type of thing for the reasons we know are their reasons, and no one else “believes” us.
We have discovered a “secret” evil in this world and been FORCEd to accept it is real (which it is) but others may have a vested interest (their feeling of safety) in the non-existence of true EVIL in our world. It makes them afraid and therefore they cannot admit it is true.
We have been forced by our circumstances to realize the TRUTH of purely EVIL people. But, admitting that, I do not choose to continue to live in TERROR of that evil, but to be rationally cautious.
Like EC was talking about when she was broken down with two flat tires. She did not uncautiously accept offered “help” from people she did not know. She wasn’t terrified, but she was cautious and she handled the situation in a cautious and logical manner. I want to live like that as well. I want to live with reasonable, rational caution, but not TERROR.
The hyperalert state of terror keeps us in unending stress which is not good for us or anyone in our environment, I think. I don’t live in that hyper-alert state any more, but I lookk around me, am aware of my environment and look at a situation with a “what is teh worst thing that can happen” stance, so like Elizabeth Conely, I try to get the situation fixed with the least possible risk to myself.
That’s just good sense. I know that you cannot look at a stranger and know that they are safe when you are vulnerable. So what she did about getting back into her car when strangers approached is a good thing. A cautious thing.
Just as my cat cautiously approaches new things I want to cautiously approach new people (or have them approach me) so that I can judge the situation so that I am SAFE. On the side of the highway, this is pretty hard to do. So, therefore, I am VERY cautious in exposing myself, just like EC, but I don’t think she was terrorized by the approach of others.
As we live in relative safety and work on our healing and become more sure of our own judgment (I think the worst thing I lost was the confidence in myself to make good judgments) and we start to TRUST OURSELVES AGAIN TO KEEP US SAFE, then we become more relaxed, and like the cat, approach new things and new people cautiously, but not in terror, we lose some of that anxiety we had about our own, and in your case, the safety of your son.
You are an amazing young woman Jill, and you have been through a great deal between your x and your family’s attitudes. You have great strength and I admire how you have survived and your determination to keep yourself and your son safe. Your determination to heal from the trauma you have suffered.
I’m glad that you are starting to want to reach out to others and see your friends and to meet new people. That is a very positive sign! God bless you and your baby and big hugs to you both!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:09pm
sadie says:
Jillsmith,
I dont post often, but wanted to say that I appreciate your post about your recovery. I, too, spent alot of energy in the same way you do. Its part of the process of healing. It’s been 2 years since I left the S. I’ve been battling legally for our child’s safety ever since (and I am winning despite financial ruin). Despite all the support I’ve receive from family and friends, I still obsess over the fact that I CHOSE this person to father a child. I dont trust myself and I still cry at the thought of going on a date with someone. I dont trust my judgements anymore.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 4:29pm
tryingtoheal says:
Have just read the magnificently correct post of Steve Becker. Now I have no doubt whatsoever that I was with a Sociopath, him to a T!
I can’t speak highly enough of Lovefraud!
I thank you all.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:23am
OxDrover says:
Ttryingtoheal, I think most of us feel that way a bout LF.
I heard on the news last night that the Supreme Court did not overturn or give him stay, so unless the Governor gives him a pass for the death sentence, I think he will be executed today. I can’t see a Governor being that intent on political suicide so I have a feeling his execution will be carried out today.
I also heard on the news last night that the Ft. Hood shooter had gone to his local Mosque wanting to be some kind of LAY LEADER and they turned him down and told him that he was “sick.” Interesting. However, apparently the various terrorists organizations (apparently he had tried unsuccessfully to contact them) were hailing him as a hero.
He is conscious now and off the ventilator but his attorney won’t let him talk to authhorities. Also learned that the police officer who shot him, a very tiny woman, when she saw him shooting was running at him firing, and even after she was hit three times, kept running toward him. she is known among her fellow officers as Mighty Mouse for her bravery. Her husband is in the Special Services in the Army. I can see where she got the nickname. Talk about keeping your head in a fire fight! Apparently, according to the article I read, out of uniform, she is known as a quiet and nice neighbor and friend.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:16pm
Easy says:
Clemency for D.C.-area sniper is denied
Today, November 10, 2009, 3 hours ago
Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine clears the way for the execution of sniper John Allen Muhammad for the attacks that terrorized the nation’s capital region for three weeks in 2002.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:51pm
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Donna- This is very personal, but can you ask Mildred to share with us how she has chosen to discuss the father’s disorder, his arrest and execution with the children?
Perhaps this will be helpful to others, particularly since so many are given the ridiculous charge “not to bad mouth” the other parent.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:46am
Donna Andersen says:
Liane,
I have sent a request to Mildred Muhammad.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:11am
OxDrover says:
Dear Liane,
That is an excellent question. Especially in such a case as this where the “bad acts” of the other parent are OBVIOUSLY HORRIBLE.
For what it is worth, when my husband deserted us (leaving us destitute) I chose to concentrate on his mental illness when talkign to the children, who were devestated at this, since up until that time he had been a loving and very involved father and was very close to the boys, spending every evening and every weekend with them doing things and would not even return their phone calls. He never saw or spoke to them again.
I told them that he was “sick in his thinking” and that if he had been sick in his body, say with a broken leg, they would not have quit loving him and since he was sick in his thinking he couldn’t return their love and care right then. they were like 8 and 9 years old.
My oldest son C. cried uncontrollably in great wracking sobs for two years. I took them to therapy for two years and we went as a family as well.
My husband did have MAJOR depression and other diagnoses, but he also was the dupe of his P-father and so afraid to go against his father’s wishes it was UNreal, even by the “LoveFraud standards. ” His father took legal control of his son’s business affairs as well…l.i.e. our joint assets, which had been moved to another state.
I didn’t want to do like so many families I have seen where the parents use the children as weapons to hit each other with, each one “bad mouthing” the other parent to the children, putting the kids in the no-win middle situation. Especially LITTLE kids. At the same time, when there are major CRIMES that are nationally newsworthy, what the heck DO you say to the child—of any age.
Since it has “only” been about 7 years since the crimes were committed, this seems to be a “quick” execution by US standards. Maybe possibly due to the horror of this particular crime spree.
My counsel, for what it is worth, is that the parents should not “bad mouth” the other parent to a young child by saying “Daddy is a bad man because…” but say instead, “I don’t approve of _______ (heavy drinking, etc) because it causes problems in the lives of everyone.” Talking about what the behavior is that is unacceptable.
When the child comes home and says “Daddy says you are a bitch” I think the mother should not respond by saying “Well, he’s an asshole too!” but rather be calm and say something like, “well, sometimes when people are angry at someone else they call them names, but I don’t agree with name calling, even if I am angry.” or something to that effect and then let it go. Kids will draw their own conclusions from that.
My heart goes out to Mildred Muhammad through all that she has endured. she has obviously risen from the ashes and is putting the things she has learned to benefit for herself and others. God bless her for her strength and efforts!
.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:46am
sadie says:
Dear Oxdrover,
Thanks for your post. My daughter is too young to understand why she doesnt see her father and I have always struggled with how I will talk to her about it in the future. I only say, “I’m glad you love your dad. Your daddy loves you too in his own way. He is an important person because he is YOUR daddy”. She is happy and doesnt think she is different. I just explain that every family is different and that some children live with their mothers and some live with their fathers, some are adopted and some live with their grandparents. I dont want her to feel ashamed because her father has abandoned her. But at some point, I’m going to have to explain the situation in a way that doesnt hurt her. Plus, he has bad mouthed me infront of her in the past. Also, he is very angry with me and blames me for everything that has happened to him. He’d put me in jail the first moment he could. He lies uncontrollably, yet is charming to most people. He has a drinking problem and refuses to get help. Blames all his money problems on me. etc etc etc…
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:45pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sadie,
I remember a time when I was probably about three. I lived with my egg donor and her parents. I played with the two kids across the road, a year or so older than me and one of them asked me who my daddy was. they knew who I lived with. Up until then I hadn’t really thought about a “daddy’ since I had never had one, just my Pop and granny and my “momma”—I went home and asked what a daddy was.
I remember then thinking that my “daddy” was my grandfather some how, but yet, not. when my egg donor remarried when i was 3 1/2 and he became my “daddy” I was more than satisfied.
I think the way you have told your child is a kind and good way to approach it and I am sure as she gets older you will be able to explain it to her in age appropriate terms as she has questions.
Whether he is a genuine psychopath or whether he is just a man with “problems” that he doses with alcohol, your child will soon enough see for herself what they are. I hope that in the future you will find a man as good as my step father was to me and she will have a “real” father, not just a toxic sperm donor. But even if she doesn’t, I think she has an AWESOME MOM! ((((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:54pm
jillsmith says:
Thanks Sadie. Well, I came back on here for a quick, “hi”. I spent a long time doing yoga after walking into the middle of other people’s last fight and I felt fine. Anyway, I wish I could get to a point where I don’t get my feelings hurt so easily. To me, that’s the worst part about everything I went through with the P. I guess to describe what that part of myself is that I’m missing, I’d say it’s my confidence. With confidence, one has the ability to put things people say in their proper compartment. I am lacking this ability these days, but I recognize it and am working on it.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:34pm
jillsmith says:
Liane,
I’m glad you asked Donna this. I’m always wanting to learn way mothers and fathers explain everything to their kids. I have not decided yet how I will explain all of this to my son. I have plenty of time to learn, but I want to be ready when his questions come.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:36pm
jillsmith says:
Oxy,
Thanks for the congrats and your take on things. I still have a long way to go, but I am getting better at recognizing when I start to feel triggered and getting away from the situation to do something for myself. It’s tricky, but I am making progress. My son can tell too because he has been so easy lately. When I’m balanced, he seems to be too.
Oh and just an update for you and everybody: My son was walking a little later than I would like. I tried everything and worked with him very hard on it. I enrolled him in a group with a physical therapist, just to be on the safe side and do all I could for him. He started walking on his own just great right after I made the call, ha. So, he had a few sessions and then “graduated” because he was making so much progess. Anyway, when they did testing on him, they do all sorts of testing. Some of it involved testing social and nurture skills. They gave my son a baby doll and watched him interact with it. They said that most kids that age who have never seen a doll just treat it like all the other toys. Those with advanced nurture/empathy skills love on it like a baby and try to take care of it. This is what my son did. He also ran over to the window with the doll and held her up to show her the scene. This is his favorite thing to do, so I thought it was cute that his first reaction to the doll was to show her his favorite activity. He talked to her about everything outside and then made eye contact with the doll to see her reaction and give her a kiss. Most of these subtleties I missed, but the woman saw all of this and interpreted it for me. I hadn’t told her anything about the P or any concerns I have, so she wasn’t just trying to reassure me. They don’t really do that anyway. So, I was relieved and happy at the news. I thought this was a great sign and made me realize that I can find whatever behavior I happen to be looking for in my son because he’s LEARNING about behavior through trial and error. He’s going to have all different types of behavior, just as adults do too. Because we’re all human. So, I decided to just ignore the fact that I know a P contributed to his DNA and just go about offering him as much love and stability as possible, just as I would have done so if I had the most amazing, loving father in the world to offer my son. I was so worried about it all before, that this new approach has lifted a HUGE load off my shoulders. Anyway, that’s my full update.
There are a lot of new people on the board. I’m trying to catch up with their stories. Everyone has so much to contribute to the board and I learn a lot from them all. Thank you to all of you.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:55pm
jillsmith says:
Sadie,
What you say to your daughter sounds good and healthy. I’m thinking about saying to my son, at an appropriate age, “Your father was not well enough to be a father or a husband” and just leave it at that. What do you guys think? It is true, but I don’t think he needs to know violent details. When he’s an adult, I’ll probably tell him I was abused and left to be safe, but I don’t think I”ll tell him his dad was diagnosed with ASPD. What good would that do him? I am open to all of your thoughts on this.
It sounds like we’re in a similar boat with young children, Sadie. It’s hard to know the best thing to tell them, huh? I think you’re doing great though. You care and that is the main thing our kids need.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
WONDERFUL insight and I would neeeeeever say “I told you so!” months ago that you just neede to relax and treat your baby like a baby and not be so anxious! LOL ROTFLMAO I don’t get a chance to say “I told you so” very often, but then I restrain my self and would neeeevvvverr do it! (((hugs)))
I know what you mean about the “feelings on your sleeve” kind of thing, and that is a NORMAL STAGE in all of this healing sweetie! Believe me it is NORMAL. So quit hitting yourself on the head about it, it WILL PASS—I promise you.
You’ve had some hard “licks” and scares and ANYONE who is “normal” would be having some REACTIONS to all this trauma so you don’t be so hard on yourself and don’t worry about that lovely little boy, he will do just fine if you just love him and give him plenty of your time and love, and so oyou are OBVIOUSLY DOING THAT NOW, so quit’yer’worrying! Don’t make me get the skillet! ((((hugs))) and as always, you are in my prayers sweetie. Love Oxy
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:08pm
jillsmith says:
Oxy,
I’ll say it then. You told me so.
Yes, relaxing helps a lot. I had a strange dream in a land where trees could talk. I went up to HUGE tree and asked it what wisdom it has learned about life in all of its years. The tree said, “Be. Just be.” I woke up and really thought about it, as silly as talking trees might seem. I think it was my subconscious mind’s way of saying, “CHILL OUT!” Anyway, I think that will be my new mantra. Be. Just be.
I actually bought my son a little boy baby doll after I was told it helps with nurturing skills. She said that more little boys should have dolls to learn this skill. She said it’s the easiest way for kids to learn empathy and friendship when they’re this tiny. I thought that was great and cool to give him a doll. He loves his little friend! It’s so cute and makes me smile to see him hug and kiss his little baby. He likes to feed it a lot too. A funny thing is that he lifted his shirt and holds the doll close. Could he have an emotional memory of breast feeding? I thought it was funny.
Thanks for saying that about reactions to trauma. I do need to be less hard on myself. I’m incredibly hard on myself and ironically, it makes things worse for myself, not better. It’s not a good motivator for change and healthy improvement. Easier said than done. That’s my other weakness: Being able to analyze a situation and come up with a logical solution and though process, but having a difficult time applying it and putting it to action, as far as my P recovery goes. Well, there’s always room for improvement, right? I guess I need to remind myself of things I’m doing right now and again.
Thanks for the prayers.
By the way, how are you? How did things turn out with that minister? Or is that a bad topic? How’s the farm? Anything new?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:31pm
jillsmith says:
Edit: thought process, not “though process”
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:34pm
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
Good to see you here…..and I am so glad you continue to explore yourself and your baby.
Sometimes we gotta just let it happen huh!!!!
Keep on keepen on girly!!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
“Emotional memory” my arse!? Of course he REMEMBERS! He may eventually “forget” it, but who knows he may not. Believe it or not I have memories from about 12 months, they are visual memories, (not verbal ones) but I described them to my egg donor (who did not believe me) and I said, “do you remember where I was when X happened?” she said “yes” and I said “on the end of the couch when it was on the North wall of my grandmother’s living room and I was on the East end of the couch. She couldn’t believe it, but I DID remember and the incident happened before I was a year old.
I have other memories from age 2 and 3 that are as vivid today as they were then. They are sort of like little 10 second “snippets” of video without sound, so they are essentially preverbal, but yes, memory goes a LONG way back.
My P-son was operated on at age 5 months and until he was 6 years old you could not sit him on a table without him being afraid (people put him on a table to do things that hurt him) and also people in white shirts (back in those days all medical and nursing personnel wore white) In those days they wouldn’t let the parents stay there all the time like now, and also even if they had, I wouldn’t have known that he would “know” or remember at that age. He eventually “forgot” these memories (or repressed them) but the thing is being nursed is a good memory that your son remembers now.
I think many (if not all) of us expect MORE OUT OF OURSELVES than we would EVER expect from someone else. I know that I am sure that way.It is also natural for a new mother to be anxious about their baby, but in moderation. I know that you have had so many VALID FEARS about your baby, but just relax, let the kid be a kid, it sounds like he is growing and maturing at a great rate and sounds very sharp as well. Lots of loving, attention and consistency is what a kid needs and outside of him getting enough to eat and his butt washed, that is about all they do need for quite some time. He is getting that!
Looking back on it I was probably the most ignorant new mother you can imagine, ,and looking back I can also say I was one of the best! I stayed at home, nursed my kids, played with them (they are great new toys and play things!) and read to them from the time they came home from the hospital and talked to them. If ignorance would kill a kid mine would have been dead at birth! But I ENJOYED seeing them grow and learn and that is the best thing that any mother can do. You are doing that and much more!!!! So you give yourself a pat on the back! You are doing just great and he sounds like a great kid! Just ENJOY him while a band aid will fix his worst problems! (((hugs))))
PS: To answer your questions:
The minister thing was a BUST, the guy is such a narcissist and frankly I don’t think he believed half of what we said, even with the fact I had a man who was a non-family member and was also known to him as a witness. He sent me a letter along with the papers I left with him to read proving my son was involved in trying to have me killed, and telling me that “anger and bitterness” were sins. Well, I don’t think anger is a sin since jesus was ANGRY and I figure if it is good enough for jesus it is okay for me too if it is justified. Not that I conotinue to hold on to it forever, but you know what I mean I think. He also told me it was a sin to not go to church, but the funny thing is he doesn’t know if I go to church or not, only that I don’t attend where my egg donor goes. LOL but he assured me he is NOT JUDGING ME. LOL Pithed me off for a little while but I am over it now and can laugh about it.
I didn’t have much hope it would work in the first place, but realize now that it had NO chance of working. Never did much like this minister any way, he always appeared to much “holier than thou” but thought he MIGHT BE SINCERE. Oh, well….we’ve all thought that about a lot of folks, haven’t we.
We’ve had wonderful weather here lately (more than 8 days without rain—the first since mid june! So have been outside enjoying the weather!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:58pm
geminigirl says:
Dear oxy and all of you. I really could use a cyber group hug right now.I have to admit Ive laid low for a while as I was upset and a bit confused re the comings and goings about skylar,I still think Oxy is 100% correct, NC is the only way to go, but I did get mentally thrown by all the ifs and buts. You warned me, oxy,[and others} that I would "teeter totter" as you say in the us,-we say 'see saw" but its the same thing, re my older daughter. Im in a bad place right now,-my problem is that Ive squelched down so much pain, anger, rage, hurt and down right confusion for so long, re both my adult girls. Now that Ive been NC with D by phone since end of June, this year,{when I wrote to her setting my 2 boundaries, the main one being an apology,only one ,for ll the truly terrible stuff shes put me through}. Of course, I know I have to accept its very unlikely short of a miracle that an apology will be forth coming, so I now have to accept I may never see her again. Sometimes the FOG overtakes me, and I think, "Im still her Mother, how can I do this?" Other days like today, the rage, humiliation and hurt at what shes done in the past seems to stick in my craw. I was gaslighted for so long by both my ex husband and both my girls, {all 3 are ps], I see that now.Ive damped down all the rage for so long just to get to see my 3 grandkids. And she used to be furious with me! Even tho I hadnt done any thing to her. I had to meet her husband after Holly was born, to find out if I was going to be allowed to even SEE the new baby.{This was nearly 15 years ago.} She finally relented and let David and I come to visit her in hospital, when Holly was 3 days old. I took lovely baby things, also a beauty case filled with all sorts of nice smelly things for her, soaps, creams, shampoos, bubble bath, etc.
All she said was”Put it at the end of the bed.” She lay and glared at me, and wouldnt even speak to me, and was even reluctant to let me hold the baby.Ill never forget the hatred in her eyes. What for? I couldnt work it out, as David and I had showere d her with love and kindness.I was still hurting from her banning me from her wedding the previous october, when she was7 months pregnant with Holly.And sending an invite to David. {Who naturally didnt go!]Im still no nearer to understanding these sub humans and when its your own flesh and blood, its even harder.I keep getting terrible flashbacks of her beating me with that bamboo pole, throwing that red hot steam iron at my head, destroying my art studio, and paintings. I havent been able to paint since that day, despite having had my work exhibited in the Royal Scottish Academy in Edinburgh, at only 21 years of age. Do you think its jealousy?She was very good at art at school, before falling in with the punks. All her folio of work in her last school year were parodys of my mythological paintings, poking fun at them. I said nothing at the time but it did hurt me.She could be so nice on the phone, but I realise now, it was all to butter me up before touching me for more money. No More!I guess Im just having a bad day. hel, I used to have bad years!!I have so much to be thankful for.Love, and {{HUGS!!}}} Gem.XXX
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:03pm
heavenbound says:
Mama Bear Gem!!!
Huge ((((((((((hugs))))))))))
I’m praying for you
I’m so sorry for your pain, anger and confusion
I have missed you. I love you and so does God!!
Love,hugs, and prayers, daughter heavenbound
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:20pm
persephone7 says:
Dear Gem –
You’ve lived through pain with your family I can’t even imagine. Someone
here will know your whole story much better than I but as an artist, I hope
you can find your way back to painting or some kind of artistic expression
if you have the wonderful gift you must. I know I must use art as my own salvation, it has gotten me through so much – I just had to write you to say
yes, it could be jealousy on your daughter’s part, and just the fact that
she sees your goodness AND your talent, aside from the fact that young
people just want to forge their own way no matter what.
I’m not expressing this well but I hope you can see your way to being able
to be a grandmother as well, it is the saving grace of my life right now
when I see my first grandson. I’ll be thinking of you, you have good reason to have laid low and glad you posted now. Again, I hope you can
start to draw and paint again, it seems that that could bring you some
comfort and release. Pick a new myth that would inspire you and have
some connection with what’s going on in your heart.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:25pm
ErinBrock says:
Gem~
Days like this we must remind ourselves of BALANCE!
Keep the lows at medium and keep the highs on medium….
WE do have days when we are angry at WHY are we here…..with this situation in our laps…..WE didn’t choose this…..
These are the days we gotta “Shake it up”…..try and get out, do somethng nice for ourselves, reminding ouselves that we are in a good place TODAY!
I’m sorry Gem…..I’m so sorry!!!
I’m sending you an EB love…..OOOhhhh, did I squeeze you too tight?
XXOO
EN
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:08pm
geminigirl says:
Thank you SO much, heavenbound, Persephone, and Erin! Your love and support mean so much to me.I know we all have good and bad days. Today, i did a lot! I cleaned the entire house, {including our 2 bathrooms,}, washed all the floors, made a chicken curry for the weekend, when our lovely Iranian “kids” are coming for lunch. I washed and cut my own hair, and it looks great! did a washing ,folded towels, cleaned the kitchen, wrote my emails.I feel so much better. Tomorrow is my other day at the dementia support centre, where I work 2 days a week as a volunteer. I love this.I know that if I continue to give to the world, with no strings, the world will support me.
We also have a menagerie of native birds that we feed, Kookaburras, magbies, herons, Lorikeets{parrots], butcher birds, and galahs. As well as our black miniature poodle, Bobby. So life is good, just now and then I feel unbelievably sad and swamped by the past. All I can do is move forward, and live my best life. I cant help my girls any more, except by praying for them. Thanks again, you are ll AWESOME!!!{{{HUGS!!}}}, and Love, Gem.XXX
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:48am
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Darlling I didn’t see your post until this morning. I was off and on the blog yesterday and retired early last night.
Hun, it seems that all this rage, sadness, anger, disappointment, etc. is all like an onion, in thin layers. We clean off one layer and it smarts our eyes and for a while it doesn’t stink, but then we clean off another layer and we get a fresh layer that smarts our eyes again.
We clean it out layer by layer and it hurts each time. In your life (and mine) because there has been so many years of this and the onion has grown quite large, we have big onions to peel. I know I would get in a ’steady state” of peace and then something would peel lback another layer and off I would go again.
sometimes I still see things that “trigger me” but as each layer gets peeled and cleaned and the stink goes away, there are longer and longer periiods of time between when I am at peace.
You tried to be “good” to your daughter in ways that you thought she would appreciate, but you have to go back to the basics and REMEMBER THAT BAMBOO POLE.
I think (just my opinion) that even if she got desperate and “apologized” it would be a superfiscial WORD without meaning. It is obvious she HATES YOU, just as Witty’s son does her and as my P-son does me. There is nothinig we can do to change that. It IS WHAT IT IS.
As I see it, we can go on grieving about this and keeping up a FALSE HOPE, or we can accept that our relationships with these children of the lie is NON EXISTENT. It is not! It is a fantasy on our part and we must ACCEPT it.
ACCEPTENCE is the end of grief, it is the final lstage. Just as it took me a long time to ACCEPT the fact my husband was dead, wasn’t coming back, it wasn’t his fault, it wasn’t my fault, it just WAS. It just IS. Of course I went bck and forth from sadness to BARGAINING (and I think bargaining is the stage we stay in the longest when the CORPSE STILL WALKS AROUND. In the case of my husband he wasn’t almost dead, or partly dead, he was DEAD and I couldn’t make him alive, I had to accept it eventually.
With our children they are still breathing so we keep up this TOXIC HOPE that somehow they will get better, or we blame ourselves, or SOMETHING to keep this drama going within ourselves rather than FACE THE FACT that they are DEAD TO US.
I know this sounds harsh Gem, and I don’t mean it that way, but as long as you ALLOW yourself to go back over the doubts, the BARGAINING, and get stuck in that phase, it will HURT AGAIN.
When you find yourself feeling “weak” REMEMBER THE BAMBOO POLE, remember the iron, remember it all….and rememeber that IT IS WHAT IT IS. (((((HUGS))))) I will try to call Lily’s phone again today. No answer lately. Keep praying fo rher.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:11am
heavenbound says:
Oxy, Mama Bear Gem, Wit, and all
I was thinking because it hurts me to see you guys saying that your children hate you…the pain that thought must make you feel…….
Since the opposite of love is not hate but indifference and love is something that a p cannot feel maybe that’s where some of the pain comes from in us.
It’s not hate that we see in them but rather an indifference…I mean they are truly disgusted with us because we are no longer usable or sometimes they are disgusted with us because we are usable and subject to things they would never be subject to.
See, I either love you with all my heart or I hate you with all my heart …I kinda love you or I kinda hate you…but they don’t have that,,,
they smile at you if you are usable or they look evil at you if you are not or your somehow in the way of one of their plans.
I was always left unable to clarify the look he would give me,,,I’d say “like he hated me or something” the “or something” was because somehow it was not hate but I couldn’t figure it out…..
I think it was anger or indifference to my feelings, I was to be a means to something he wanted other wise there was no smile, just an anger for my messing with his plans…even if I didn’t know I was.
I’m just not sure they are able to hate…They get angry and get even, they hurt us or do something to us that they know will upset us. I do think they get jealous or something. You will pay and be used if you have or can do something that they want or want to do.
Just a thought
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:00pm
OxDrover says:
Oh, yes, darling, mine HATE ME—tried to have me killed when I cut off his monoey supply (so he could inherit) and on and on, my Psperm donor hated me, it was NOT indifference.
Yes, you are right, they can’t love, and indifference is (in normal people) the opposite of love (rather than hate being) but OH, CAN THEYEVER HATE.
Remember the old saying about “if you love something set it free if it comes back…?” Well their ending is “if it doesn’t come back, HUNT IT DOWN AND KILL IT!”
Is all about CONTROL and while they cannot love, the can OWN you, or feel that they do, and just like you would want your slave to obey you, they want us to obey them, to be under their control Even if they do not “want” us and discard us, they sxtill want to control.
And, yes it did hurt, but like any other relationship when you work at it, it can be ACCEPTED. It hurt whem my husband was killed (accidentally) but you know, I have accepted it and I still have great memories of our eyars together. I have good memories of my P-son when he was a little guy and we used to have so much fun and he was so bright and funny.
Now tht “little boy” is dead and gone, he is passed, and the MAN who got his “organs” is a STRANGER who hates me because I have “got his number” and he no longer can lie to me and get me to do what he wants. He cannot stand anyone to NOT give in to him, to not be manipulated. My P sperm donor was the same way CONTROL, BRUTE FORCE OR MURDER IF NECESSARY, but don’t lose control.
In the end, I WON because I never gave in. I never quit fighting. He never beat me down. He never coweed me. He knocked me unconscious but I never cowed down or let him own my soul. Sure he scared me, he overpowered me physically…and for a while I felt guilty for what he did TO me, but no longer. I have reached indifference with HIM—after over 40 years of NC and a couple of years ago his death, but yes, my dear, they CAN hate, and to me it is the worst kind of hate there is because they are INDIFFERENT TO HUMAN SUFFERING (at best) and at worst THEY ENJOY IT.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:48pm
skylar says:
heavenbound,
it’s hate. believe me.
They hate their mothers so much. And they hate all women because they project their mother-hatred to all women.
When they are yelling or beating you, that’s not hate, they’re just doing that for fun. That’s pure joy. They are ACTING like they are angry.
The hate is a cold hatred. They don’t express it except by plotting and conniving and being diabolical. When they tell you that they love you, THAT’S HATE. They are hating you for being weak and believing them, but most of all they hate you for no rational reason.
Their emotions are so mixed up that nothing you see is real. I believe it’s because they have so much fear somewhere that they won’t allow themselves to feel their feelings so they substitute other feelings and then I think that various layers of feelings get substituted until nothing makes any sense at all.
My xP once told me how he hates democrats, but he pretends to be one around his friends so he can trick them into seeing the flaws in their logic (he’s delusional). He accuses me of being a liberal democrat (I’ve never professed any political affiliation or platform, I only hate hypocrisy) and he tells me he must berate me until I give up my left leaning ways and see things his way. (LOL)
Then he says he hates the democrats for having flawed thinking but when he finds a “weak” one, he is able to convince them to change sides by pretending to be a “confused democrat”. He says when he gets one to change sides, he hates them even more for being weak.
Can you see the logic here? It applies to love and war. They are all F’d up.
BTW, I told him that I wouldn’t be agreeing with him because I don’t want him to think I’m weak.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:50pm
OxDrover says:
ps; That Look you are talking about is like staring into the eyes of SATAN HIMSELF, many of them have THAT LOOK. The best I can describe it is the photo of Charlie Manson looking right at the camera and leaning a bit forward as they were taking him in handcuffs after his arrest. SATAN himself. I have seen THAT LOOK on all of my Ps, and a few times on the faces of others, but NOT many and I actually wonder if that look is actually a P-trait I know they don’t look that way every minute but when they are angry, enraged or hate.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:51pm
skylar says:
I was spell checking hypocrisy and ran across this definition on wikipedia.
OMG, I never thought about the deeper meaning of the word hypocrisy. No wonder Jesus went on and on about hypocrites. He was talking about P’S!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
here’s part of it:
Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have beliefs, opinions, virtues, feelings, qualities, or standards that one does not actually have. Hypocrisy is thus a kind of lie. Hypocrisy may come from a desire to hide from others actual motives or feelings.
Hypocrisy is not simply an inconsistency between what is advocated and what is done. Samuel Johnson made this point when he wrote about the misuse of the charge of “hypocrisy” in Rambler No. 14:
Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.[1]
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 5:03pm
skylar says:
This quote at the end of the wiki article is so true.
Although hypocrisy has been called “the tribute that vice pays to virtue,”[4] and a bit of it certainly greases the wheels of social exchange, it may also corrode the well-being of those people who are continually forced to make use of it.[5] As Boris Pasternak has Yurii say in Doctor Zhivago, “Your health is bound to be affected if, day after day, you say the opposite of what you feel, if you grovel before what you dislike… Our nervous system isn’t just fiction, it’s part of our physical body, and it can’t be forever violated with impunity.”
This is what I’m observing in the xP. The life of lies he has led has begun to make him paranoid. It so sad. Oh well.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 5:27pm
heavenbound says:
I know the p i was with has no concern for his mother and her well being but one time I referred to all women as, well, basically trash and included his mother in the reference as well as myself, to show that some men disrespected women, including him and his father…he screamed to never call his mother that and put his fist through a solid wood door. (I know, I could not believe he could do that to a solid door either) Everyone that saw the door was so shocked. I knew he was strong but jeez….why did he get that angry over someone he couldn’t care less about?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 5:56pm
OxDrover says:
Der Heavenbound,
Why did he get that angry about someone he couldn’t care less about? Because he must be IN CONTROL, and his mother was his PROPERTY…so he could dis her but you couldn’t.
Skylar, yes, jesus did go “on and on’ about the hypocrits and called them “like whited tombs, beautiful on the outside and inside filled with rotten mens bones.” (paraphrased)
The hypocrits ARE the Ps, they are the judges and polliticians who pretend to be out to do right and help th epeople while they are stealing from the gov’t and the people. they are the BTK killer who went to church every week, they are the counselor or minister who beats his wife, they are the minister/doctor/lawyer/teacher that seduces a patient/student/client and so on.
Of course we all tell “little white lies” about “does this pair of pants make my butt look big?” OF COURSE NOT DEAR! LOL But a genuine hypocrit is a terrible thing—they crucified Christ so what do you think they will do to you!?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 6:04pm
OxDrover says:
ps, speaking of the crucifiction of christ, there are also those like Pilot who will just “sit and watch evil” and “wash their hands of the guilt” since it is the P (hypocrits) doing the evil.
He who watches evil and does nothing I think is pretty much as bad as the one doing the evil;. Remember the Kitty Genovese case? Not sure how to spell her name, like 20+ people watched her get killed and no one called the cops. It took half an hour for her attacker to kill her and people just shut their windows to block out her screams for help.
Studies were done about this case, and it was determined that when there are MANY PEOPLE witnessing a horror, everyone will depend on SOMEONE ELSE to take action, and in the end, ,NO one does. If there are only 1-2 people present you are much more likely to get help and assistance.
Odd kind of thing, but it makes a kind of reverse sense I think as an explination. But she’s still dead.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 6:08pm
heavenbound says:
Oxy,
Of course, How silly of me, duhhh
You are so right, she is his property. I clearly wasn’t thinking about the obvious.
Thanks
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 6:09pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest oxy, Thank you so much for your wise council. I know that you have been there, done that and have the Tshirt to prove it. Im printing all your helpful blogs, and others,such as heavenbound, Erin, etc. thank you all! You promised Id have bad days, and yes, it is like peeling a larg onion, one more stinkin layer after another,LOL!! One thing kind of baffles me. Why, when we did so much for them, kept forgiving them endlessly, WHY do they hate us so much? Is it their own self-hatred projected and mirrored onto us? Is that it?Are they full of consuming envy of us?And I keep asking this and no-one seems to know or care,What happens to them eventually when they run out of people to sucker punch and lie to and con?I still worry about her, at 45, she has thrown away everything that most people value, her home, her husband, her kids, her Mum, good jobs, good friends,her car, her credit rating,surely she is on a downward spiral? What happens when her looks fade, and they will!She sure as hell doesnt worry about me, but I still worry about what will become of her. Thanks again you wonderful peeps!!and {{HUGS}}}. Gem.XXX
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:16pm
witsend says:
heavenbound,
Forgive me if I am confused because I tried to read alot in a little bit of time. But I believe it was you that asked on another thread about the hate v/s indifference?
Well just imagine (its REALLY impossible I think to imagine this) what it would be like knowing that your child hates you?
I know that if this wasn’t within my ACTUAL experience IT would be one of those things that would be SO beyond my comprehension that I couldn’t EVEN imagine it. So I don’t really expect you to be able to do it either……
I denied it for awile.
I believe the FIRST moment I knew that it was “true” was one of those times in your life that you feel the hairs on the back of your neck and goose bumps and that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach. For me it was an actual physical reaction. I saw it in his eyes. I felt it.
Indifference right now would be a welcomed relief. (compared to)
It goes against my nature, by BEING, to believe this. But I do know it is there, and it is real. To dismiss it for something else (anything ELSE) would be easier to accept.
But as hard as it is to accept, it is what it is. And if I could dismiss this part of it easily, I could also live in denial about the rest of it.
And at some point I have got to find a way to detach from him. (not normal parent/child detaching) But real detachment.
I don’t want any of this to be my reality. But it is my reality. I would believe that Gemini and Oxy went through much of this as well…..But are further along in the process.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:25pm
kim frederick says:
Witty, I’m still praying that the new counselor can help. Maybe it’s not too late. I’m hoping.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:49pm
witsend says:
Dear Gemini,
I think that when looking at this from a perspective in a much younger child it is something that continues to manifest. the hatred you asked about.
Right now I could describe my experience as “watching it grow” for the past two years. (the disorder) This has grown right in front of my eyes. Like a fast growing cancer eating away at the child I once knew. I have said this before but I will say it again. It is hard to know if the disorder is grooming him or he grooms the disorder…..
Your daughter being an adult has had alot of time for this to keep manifesting within her. It keeps growing. Thats what I believe. Each “conquest” becomes another part of “their story”. Of course their story is always how they were “wronged” by that person. (You, her X husband, jobs, friends) the disorder grows right along with the victim list.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:55pm
witsend says:
Thanks Kim
I believe it would take Gods hand. And I am having trouble praying right now. But please keep praying.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Sugar it is nothing that you did. It is all about CONTROL and she wants control, even if she must sacrifice everything she has to get what SHE perceives as “winning” and CONTROL.
The frustration of every time you put her in the corner to punish her when she was 6 up until now makes her hate you. You “Win” and somehow that makes her lose! So she has to hate you. Everything bad that has ever happened to her is your fault, or the x husband’s or someone’s, but NOT her.
Life would be wonderful for her except YOU ruined it. so she must hate you.
My P son hates me for turning him in to the cops for theft at age 17—I betrayed him. If he can’t control me, then I deserve to die.
It isn’t all the tings we have done FOR them that they remember, and BTW they were ENTITLED for you to do that anyway. It is the things we stood up for and said NO! I won’t do that.
I used to worry because my son is in a prison that is a tough one and inmates get hurt there every day. My son is a white man of small stlature and he has been beaten severely on many occasions, had bones broken, shoulders ripped out of socket, teeth knocked out, and God alone knows what else has been done to him. I worried night and day for nearly 20 years, but you know what…I don’t any more. It was hard. yes it was difficult, but my “son” is dead and the “man” in prison in texas DESERVES To be there, he killed a 17 year old girl in cold blood and left her body in a place it was 2 weeks before it was found. he did it because he was mad at her for turning him in to the cops for crimes they had committed together. she was just an out of control teenager but he was a hardened criminal and she didn’t realize what she was dealing with and it cost her her life. She didn’t deserve to die.
I didn’t deserve to have a son who is a monster either. But as Witty says IT IS WHAT IT IS.
I symbolicly “buried” my little boy and had my own private memorial service for him. I put all the photos of him after about age 12-ish away or threw them out. My CHILD is gone, my son is gone, and if the Texas prisons call me tomorrow and say he got killed and do I want his body, I will tell them to bury him with the rest of the criminals in their cemetary—no name, just a number. Neither of my other sons want his body brought home either. He is NO MORE to us. He is as my son C says “My X-brother”
I am fortunate that my son C’s P X-wife is gone and my relationship with him is great (again) and my adopted son D is God’s gift to me for the son I lost, and I firmly believe that. Without him by my side I would have died I know it. You have your wonderful David and I am glad for you, and you have your new adult children.
Gem, I know this sounds trite, but work on disconnecting from her, stop the worrying about her, stop thinkign about her! When you find yourself worrying about her, “change the subject” think about how blessed you are! COUNT your blessings instead of dwelling on the things you have LOST. She is GONE Gem, and I know I sound like a broken record, but we can force our selves to think of other things rather than obscess.
Sit down tonight and write a list of your BLESSINGS….start with, (Oh, I love this one) I do NOT have a toothache.
I have a warm clean bed, and clean water, and food to eat.
I have a roof over my head. I have a reasonable amount of health.
I have a husband who loves me.
and go on from there. I am sure you can fill up pages and pages of things to count as your blessings. Add to that list every day. When you are blue, READ IT. and THANK God for each of those things.
Many prayers and hugs sweetie, Gem
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:00pm
geminigirl says:
Witsend, darling, no, it never gets any easier. To know and believe that you once loving and cherished child hates you like poison, uses you without a trace of conscience or scruples,will drop you like a used kneenex the minute you stop giving and giving in to them,— none of this gets much easier to bear. But as OXy has said so often,”The truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off!” I was in denial for so long, and thats why I could never heal. You keep on thinking,”Maybe if id been a bit more loving, forgiving, understanding, yada yada, fill in the blanks,NO!! Whatever we do, it will never be enough for them! They secretly despise us, and I think they are consumed with hate and envy of us.
They are NOT NORMAL. When she was a teenager,up to the age of 19 was when she was most violent ot me and to my belongings, and I was genuinely scared of her. When my ex husband was sober, hed never have allowed her to treat me this way, but once he started drinking again, all 3 of them, he and my 2 girls, used to jeerand sneer at me and gang up on me. I had literally nowhere to turn, the only time I rang the cops, when they came to the house, he convinced them tha I was the problem.”Youve got it all wrong, officer, he said, “she abuses my daughter, shes on the game,{ie, a prostitute} and shes mentally unstable. “We understand, sir!” they said, and left.{!!!}}
5 minutes before they had arrived, my daughter had been throwing large encyclopedias at my head as if they were confetti.I couldnt win, and I told my old parents back in UK NOTHING of all this , as I didnt want to worry them. I knew our mutual friends would not have believed me, as in public, he wasSUCH a nice, friendly guy! This is NOT normal teenage behaviour, I know that now, teenagers eventually become human beings with empathy, whereas these creatures NEVER change.Love, hugs, and prayers, Gem.XXX
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:05pm
skylar says:
Witsend,
I know what yiou mean. Even though he is not my son, for 25 years I had MEMORIES OF HIM LOVING ME. Then my P-parents told me, “oh, we knew he was only with you for your money”. They overheard him tell someone. It took all my MEMORIES, my REALITY, of the last 25 years and threw it out the window. I know exactly how RipVanWinkle felt when he woke up after his long sleep.
Add to that, the realization that my parents WANTED him to make me miserable. I’m pretty sure they thought he would be a wife beater, keep me barefoot and pregnant. They “misunderestimated” him too, just in a different way.
When I realized that P’s are envious at the core, then it all made sense. They are all P’s and they all envied the settlement I received. When I demanded an explanation they finally just laughed and dad said, “well how much of your money did you give to your mother, huh?” and mom laughed and said, “oh about $500.00″. Never mind that I helped my dad invest in realestate and we both made good profits off that. Never mind that I handle all of their business transactions and taxes and bookkeeping. Never mind that without me they wouldn’t know the first thing about eating well and taking supplements or virtually anything outside of their narrow little workaholic lives.
All the people I’ve loved the most turned out to be P’s. Its a bitter pill to swallow but I’m accepting it and I’m living with it.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:26pm
heavenbound says:
Witsend,
You said…
“Well just imagine (its REALLY impossible I think to imagine this) what it would be like knowing that your child hates you?
I know that if this wasn’t within my ACTUAL experience IT would be one of those things that would be SO beyond my comprehension that I couldn’t EVEN imagine it. So I don’t really expect you to be able to do it either……”
I could be wrong but it seems somewhat insulting….I was not trying to hurt you or anger you.
I have thought about the possibility of my child hating me….
I’m looking the possibility of it in the eyes daily….
I am capable of imagining,,,,
I by no means meant to upset you
I was just thinking and tried to offer an idea,,,
I DON’T know as much as oxy, gem, or you about the topic,,,I don’t believe I said I did….just cared about you all
I am sorry if I offended you. I really never intended to.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:05pm
kim frederick says:
God, we are all so sensitive and insecure. Heaven, I didn’t get ANY of that from Wit’s response to you. You must remember that in her experience NO ONE GETS IT. I don’t think you hurt, angered or upset her, I think she was genuinely trying to tell you how it is.
I’m not critisizing you. I do this all the time. I always wonder how I’m percieved and think I might have offended someone, and these misunderstandings happen a lot here. I think we are very special people who care a lot about others, and yet our confidence in ouselves has been so damaged…well, I’ll leave it at that.
You’re a very sharp and valued member here. I hope you will consider that you may have misread Witty’s intentions.
God bless.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:32pm
witsend says:
heavenbound….I am very sorry that I offended you. I was sincere when I said that I don’t believe I could imagine this if this wasn’t something I had personal experience with.
I don’t think I could be capable of imagining it. I didn’t mean to insult you. I think in my opinion it would be like imagining the UNIMAGINABLE….It seems like a nightmare that I should wake up from to me or a made for TV movie. Not a reality.
that is all I meant.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:34pm
heavenbound says:
No,no it’s not so much my being offended,,,I was worried I had offended you,,,I just wasn’t sure if that’s what you were saying or what…
No worries,,,as long as I didn’t offend you!
I think I understand what you were saying though
Love, hugs, and prayers to you, heavenbound
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:38pm
skylar says:
heavenbound,
Your post was not in the least bit offensive. If anything, you go out of your way to be extra gentle with everyone, that is a credit to you.
Witsend did a very similar thing. She began her post:
“Forgive me if I am confused because I tried to read alot in a little bit of time. But I believe it was you that asked on another thread about the hate v/s indifference? ”
Everyone IS sensitive on this site so it’s really nice when people use such good manners to make their points. But because it’s the internet we have to read carefully and sometimes between the lines to make sure we aren’t misunderstanding a person’s intentions.
I feel like maybe we are being toooooo careful sometimes and not giving our own opinions enough credit but instead bowiing to the feelings of others. That’s how we got to be P-supply. ALL OF US, were tooooo considerate of others and didn’t want to set boundaries. I’d really like to see us be more assertive while still maintaining proper etiquette and respect. I think we can do it.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:51pm
witsend says:
heavenbound,
You are a very nice person and this comes through in your post.
I never felt offended by anything you have ever said. And when I did read your post I couldn’t find it again, but I wanted to reply so I did so on another thread.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:00pm
heavenbound says:
Kim,
thank you for trying to help,
I wasn’t trying to start a fight,
I agree though that our confidence in ourselves has been damaged,,,at least mine has.
And I am sensitive that’s for sure,,, not anyone’s fault here though and I know that. I didn’t want wit to think I thought I knew more about it then others though, because I don’t in any way and I was afraid I had came across that way and that she was trying to tell me I had. That’s all
Sky,
Thank you for that credit to me. I hope I deserve it.
The rest of what you said…Wow, you are right. I hope we can become more assertive while maintaining proper etiquette and respect as well. That is very well put…
I’m not sure I’ll ever be able to be assertive though not until I’ve finally hit aggressive. I hope someday to be able to but it seems that all I can do is take and take until I blow.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:01pm
heavenbound says:
Thank you Wit for easing my mind, you are beautiful! I don’t really know how I come across to others and worry about it.
I would have been sick all night thinking I had offended you if you hadn’t got to respond tonight.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:05pm
kim frederick says:
Heaven, I know you weren’t trying to start a fight.
Believe me, I understand. I’m very sensitive too, and I worry about how I come across.
Yes. I find assertiveness a challenge, too. I start out mildly annoyed, and say to myself, “how important is it?” Then, the next time it’s something like, “well, I don’t want to make a big thing about it and ruin the whole night…..Then I’m pissed but just keep my mouth shut…..and finally I assascinate the fucker. (Sorry. My vocabulary far out-weighs my ability to spell. It really sucks.)
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:18pm
heavenbound says:
Kim,
It’s nice to be understood! Although I’m sorry you have that problem also….It’s a real problem in life I think! Just awful!
I like the way you put it!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:22pm
kim frederick says:
Heaven, I just remembered that you are quite religious. Sorry about my foul mouth. SEE. There I go….
I am sorry though.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:28pm
skylar says:
KIM!!!!
You NEVER offend. I SO look forward to your intellectual posts. You come across as the most real human being of all.
My only concern is to complement you too much and make your head swell, that’s why I try to keep it down.
Also, I feel funny about certain people being extra nice to other certain people because I don’t want OTHER people to feel left out. So i try NOT to express the love and emotion that I feel for any one person because I don’t want to make anyone feel left out. Does that make sense? Am I the only one who thinks this way?
Life is hard. Just being nice has repercussions. God knows we’ve all experienced THAT! :p
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:31pm
kim frederick says:
Oh for God’s sake. Isn’t there any area in our lives when we don’t have to self monitor? LOL.
Thank-you Skylar. I can’t remember a nicer compliment. I think you are a very interesting, bright and clever person. Love your sense of humor……:)
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:37pm
heavenbound says:
You are just fine…I believe God judges us by our hearts!! (not our mouths)
And I promise you that I have no right to judge. I’m afraid I have a foul mouth too from time to time.
But seriously , thank you for wanting to respect me, that is a very nice thing. You are very sweet!
My name just means that I have turned my life, heart, soul and mind to Jesus. It’s not meant to mean I’m perfect. I’m a far far way from perfect.
I have to agree with skylar that you just come across as a real human being
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:38pm
heavenbound says:
Skylar
What do you mean when you say “Also, I feel funny about certain people being extra nice to other certain people”
If I understand you then I’m thinking I’m guilty of that one and sure didn’t mean to make anyone feel left out….And you are right about it, it could be hurtful to others. That’s if I understand what you’re saying
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:50pm
kim frederick says:
Oh please. Stop it. We all are okay. We just need to be who we are and trust that its good enough, quit second guessing ourselves, and get on with it. If we know in our hearts that we’re doing the best we can without evil intent then for goodness sake, set yourself free. Just be okay being you.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:58pm
heavenbound says:
No really, I’m just thinking if I understand what she means, then I agree and I can learn and grow from her statement.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:04am
skylar says:
Heaven,
Intent is everything. If you were nice because you were insecure that is one thing. if you were being nice to suck up, that’s another thing. And if you were nice the way that the P’s were nice to us – as hypocrites – that’s the worst thing.
Only you know your intentions, but everyone’s iintention are ultimately revealed. So just be yourself and everyone will love you. don’t apologize for everything or no one will respect you.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:12am
heavenbound says:
My intent in being nice to others is just me being me,,,it’s what I do…I guess I wasn’t clear…I make a point of telling a couple on here that they are dear to me and really it does leave others to wonder if they chose to and hurt people is not something i like to be a part of…however there is a couple here that have really hit a part of my heart and they are special to me… although EVERYONE is special.
You are right about apologizing though,,,no one respects it, but I use ”I’m sorry’ to convey that I have feeling in my heart that has been hurt (for myself or someone else), and that is who I am. People that don’t respect it well there are plenty and that’s ok, I avoid them.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:24am
heavenbound says:
Good night guys, have fun!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:27am
skylar says:
heaven, I guess I used the wrong word, maybe not “respect”, but perhaps just feel uncomfortable being themselves if they have to worry about walking on eggshells. That’s how the P made me feel. I just had to be so quiet and careful not to hurt his feelings or he would rage. This was at the end of the relationshit. Before that he was so nice. I was the center of the universe.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:30am
ErinBrock says:
Heaven…..do not worry. Keep on the path YOU are on! Be yourself, believe in yourself and live with your own convictions!
Continue to post with the love in your heart.
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:42am
heavenbound says:
Thank you Erin,,,I will!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:52am
jillsmith says:
Skylar,
Hi! I’m so glad you’re back. How are you?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:56am
skylar says:
Hi Jill,
I’m okay, I’m having fun but fading fast.
How are you tonight? and how is your baby?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:57am
jillsmith says:
I have a victory to share with the board and I don’t know where to do it, so I’ll just do it here, on this thread. I didn’t have anyone else to tell who would understand what a big victory it is.
It’s long and complicated to explain all of the details. I will later because it’s late and I am trying a sleep medication and I think it just kicked in.
Anyway, it looks like the exP is not going to be trying to get shared custody or even visitation of my son.
I always regretted getting the Order of Protection. I was really mad at myself for putting myself through the 4 and 1/2 hours of that hell. I had to sit right next to my ex and hear his crazy lies and watch the judge give HIM looks of compassion and empathy. He was trying to get the judge to feel sorry for him and see him as the victim because I “abandoned my husband”. Gag.
However, I think it might have worked. I was brave. I spoke the truth. I advocated for myself. I was strong in court. He saw a side of me that he had not seen. I think I sent the message, “Don’t mess with me”. I hope so anyway. This huge victory makes me think so. Even though the court experience was horrible, maybe it was worth it and good after I see these results.
Anyway, I just found out. I took my son out to dinner to celebrate. I’m so happy. This is so huge for me.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:09am
jillsmith says:
Yay! I can keep my son safe afterall! That’s all I wanted.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:10am
ErinBrock says:
Maybe we should be more aware of the triggers…..I see this sparring as unearthing VERY familiar patterns …..once again.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:12am
jillsmith says:
I’m doing well and my son is doing great. Thanks for asking. He’s at the perfect age right now. I love 18 month-olds!
Things have been a lot less stressful for me. I am sleeping well about 50% of the time now, which has helped a lot. I just need to turn that 50% into 100%. Yay, right. Ha.
In what way do you feel like the fun is fading fast?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:12am
kim frederick says:
Yay, Jillsmith. That is great news. I’m soo happy for you.
nigh night, little one!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:14am
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
This is great news! I know this has weighed on your mind, I am happy your feeling more confident!
Did you have an extension hearing today? Why is it that you think he will ‘go away’?
I am really proud of you for standing up for yourself and baby……
Judges are trained to listen….not council…..and if judge ordered the TPO….then they felt there was a need and YOU were heard!
Sometimes things turn out much better than anticipated, please don’t ever second guess yourself!
Stand tall, proud, state the facts and plow forward!!!!
Keep the balance and get a good nights sleep…..
Ya done good!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:19am
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, this is fabulous news! Congratulations!!! I am so happy to hear that you and your son are doing great! I love the “don’t mess with me” and standing in you truth and strength, you are brave!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:23am
skylar says:
Jill,
awesome news. See what God has in store for us is always good!! You were brave, you learned, you listened, you used what God gave you to WIN.
I’m ecstatic for you.
I’m fading fast tonight because it’s past my bed time. just having fun though.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:23am
kim frederick says:
Hi, EB. I am becoming aware of my own weaknesses. One of them is not being able to resist playing a game. I began to see this in my games with Mr. Buffalo. It really bothered me when I thought about it. It made me realize how arrogant I am. And foolish. Here I am doing it again. I’m enjoying it? How sick is that?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:25am
skylar says:
Kim,
why did it bother you?
Aren’t we allowed to ask questions?
There is so much to learn.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:27am
jillsmith says:
Oh and why we’re on the topic of apologies, I noticed you were concerned about my apology to Oxy the other day, Skylar. Just so you know, I actually thought Oxy was a monitor of some kind before this came up and I found out she was not one. That is why I apologized to her. I also genuinely felt bad because I thought I was stirring up something that everyone had decided was over. If I had known she’s not an admin or moderator, I would not have apologized for speaking or offering my own opinion. I just had to clear that one up because the conversation about me went on about me while I wasn’t on the board and I never got to explain.
Here’s a general question for the board: Do people really think that people who apologize or give sincere compliments are insincere? This kind of hurts my feelings and is a bit triggering for me because my ex used to make fun of me and put me down for “being too nice”. It made me paranoid to socially engage at all. It made me hate myself and my personality and try to change it. I really am sincere. You would know that if you knew me IRL.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:28am
jillsmith says:
EDIT: “Oh and WHILE we’re on the topic”, not “Oh and why we’re on the topic”.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:29am
ErinBrock says:
Kim:
If something bothers you, effects you, …..then look closely at the triggers and take back the control over YOU.
It’s all about being aware of ourselves and what triggers us or sucks us in.
Growth comes with change.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:35am
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, no, I don’t think that people who apologize or give sincere compliments are insincere. We’re nice, compassionate, strong people, that is why the S is attracted to us… and of course they would put us down for that and anything else they can think up.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:36am
skylar says:
Jill, I never thought you were insincere, I just wory about everyone trying to blend in so much that they can’t just be themselves.
I’m glad you know that the only monitor is Donna and she is quite liberal AFAIK.
Being nice is not a bad thing. I really like watching how nice everyone is to everyone else, it’s refreshing. it only bothers me when I percieve that someone is “SCARED” to just speak their mind. Then I get triggered and I am not one to be afraid to speak my mind.
BTW, you are awesome and incredibly couragous as far as I’m concerned.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:41am
heavenbound says:
Jillsmith,
I can completely agree with you on how it hurts and makes you feel I could have said everything you said in your second paragraph myself,,,thanks for saying it….I didn’t have the spine myself.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:42am
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
DO NOT EVER DOUBT YOURSELF!!!!!
Speak from your heart and do not ‘own’ anyone elses issues…….
We all come from different places….different hearts and obvoiusly different wounds….we are walking a healing path…..
Be yourself girl! Be yourself!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:44am
ErinBrock says:
Heaven:
Please speak kindly of yourself! Don’t let anyone put you down…..
REMEMBER WHO YOU ARE!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:46am
jillsmith says:
Thank, Skylar. I understand your point and where you’re coming from. I really do try to be authentic and not give too much regard to what people think about me, but it’s hard after being raised mormon and being judged for even breathing wrong within that damaging cult that the ULTIMATE conman, Joseph Smith started. Then, my P made it worse, so now I am insecure. But I’m working on it and I try hard to be assertive and strong. I’m a work in progress, but I’m doing my best, so thanks for saying you think I’m strong.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:52am
jillsmith says:
EB,
That’s good advice and I think I am being myself. I have been pondering this for a few days. It has been on MY mind. I was being myself when I posted these questions. I was being honest and forthright when I said it is triggering, which is the best way to express it on this board when those feelings come up, I think. But great advice for everyone in general!
By the way, I was saying that I USED to hate myself because of all that. I don’t anymore.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:57am
jillsmith says:
Kim,
I apologize when I realize I was wrong. I apologize if I hurt someone and after reflecting upon it, I realize I am wrong.
Other than that, I don’t do it all the time.
I thought I was apologizing to an admin for bringing up a topic that she asked us not to. I didn’t want to disrespect a moderator/admin because I like coming to this board. I thought that the people who write the articles are all some sort of moderator. I was wrong and now I know and I’m not going to say sorry.
That was a joke.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:00am
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
Good….
And ……It shows that you DON”T hate yourself, your too giving and loving to others to hate yourself!
xxoo
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:03am
kim frederick says:
tOh Jill smith. Your strength takes my breath away. You are the epitome of strength. You are my hero. To be able to leave the mind controll of your entire life, and face losing your entire family in the process….and to do it with a young child….all in the interest of truth….your truth, well, that’s really something.
I do believe you might have a tough row to hoe, though in unlearning some of the principals they drove into you.
You need to give a shit a lot less than you do. JMNSHO.
I think though, that you’re incredible.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:04am
skylar says:
Jill, As usual, Kim said it best.
I second it.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:06am
jillsmith says:
I make “good people uncomfortable”?
What on earth are you even talking about? That was mean to say. It’s not true. It didn’t happen. I apologized ONCE to Oxy. If she was so uncomfortable, she would have spoken up and emailed me about it. Additionally, you say I do this all the time. Like when? That is like a P. To take one instance, take it out of context and say it happens ALL the time.
I have never attacked you. Why did you feel the need to exploit a perceived weakness of mine and rub my nose in it? You were harsh.
I have had self-esteem issues in the past. I worked through many of them and am still working through them, as I just admitted and have many times. So, to exploit that isi pretty mean, IMHO.
Goodbye. Done with the dysfunction here. I’m going to go back to my little celebration of my victory with the S. This was NOT the place to come to celebrate my happiness. I don’t think you can let someone just be happy. Good luck with all of your issues. I have been on many boards and have been in many social circles and I have NEVER seen anything like what I have seen on this board. Good riddance!
How’s that for assertive?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:07am
jillsmith says:
P.S. Oh and I am assertive because I mean what I say when I say I’m leaving. I care about many of you and have appreciated learning from you, but it is officially time for me to move on. This is officially a very harmful environment for me. I wish I didn’t have to go, but I have to choose my social connections wisely and leave when I feel that something or someone is so continually unhealthy. I thought at first it was a coincidence, but it’s not. It’s just on this board, so I have to leave. Goodbye. I hope I can get my happy mood back enough to get some sleep.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:11am
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, please don’t go away!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:19am
jillsmith says:
Kim,
P.S. I was responding to the earlier post when you were telling me how I appear to everyone. To generalize like that is a big dig. You don’t know how I appear in general, to everyone. That was meant to legitimize your claim. You make it sound like everyone has talked about me. They haven’t. I no longer buy this kind of stuff.
Then, after my goodbye above, I read your next comment, going overboard in the other direction, complimenting me. It makes no sense. I think it must have been sarcastic and no I don’t think this because I have “serious issues with my self-estem”. I say it because it’s confusing as hell. I just wanted to do this last post to explain that my above post to you was not in response to your most recent comment. I was still writing my comment, so I didn’t see it until later. I really liked you. You were actually my favorite person on this board and I learned a lot from you, so I am so confused. But, I’m going to leave it a mystery and leave. Bye this time.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:20am
kim frederick says:
O h my God, Jill. I’m so sorry! I REALLY didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. We had had a similar conversation with another poster earlier, and maybe I was talking to her. I don’t know. I wasn’t even refering to the Oxy/Skylar incident. It had more to do with the Tilly thing. Remember? It had to do with you thinking people were refering to you, when they weren’t. I don’t know. I hurt your feelings. I’m sorry.
I do think you’re incredible, and Yes, that was pretty assertive. You go girl.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:22am
jillsmith says:
This is the post of yours I was referring to, Kim:
kim frederick says:
“No, Jill Smith. No one thinks it’s insincere. It’s just that if it’s happening all the time, if you are constantly apologizing, it makes people uncomfortable. It says something about you. It says that you doubt yourself. That you need approval. That what other people think of you is of prime importance. I think it makes good people uncomfortable because it gives them too much power. I’m not trying to be mean, just honest.
I’m certainly not saying you are a bad person…You’re not. But I think you have some real self esteem problems.
Also, this excessive kindness, ie vulnerability, is the kind of thing a P would hone in on and then eat up. Jill, I like you very much, so I hope I’m not hurting your feelings. I just think you need to toughen up……:)”
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:25am
jillsmith says:
SOOOO……………since I’m make people so uncomfortable and it was stated like a fact and everyone else on the thread agrees, goodbye.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:26am
skylar says:
Jill, who said you made good people uncomfortable?
You make me happy. I think the quote was misread.
Please reconsider. I wish I could be more supportive to you.
all I can say is this: Look, we have Ps all over the world.Then there are the garden-variety P’s (read Cleckly’s book, the mask of sanity) we need to learn to understand them because they aren’t gong away. I have the thinnist skin in the world, both figuratively and literally, and we all need to thicken it up. Love and kindness is critical to that, but so is reality and some real life experience with people who aren’t so nice (but in a safe environment)
So you know everyone here can relate to your situation, and we all want to be there for you and your son. Try to give some flexibilty to people when they don’t say the right thing. Talk about it. Ask them for more leeway with your situation. If you try that and it doesn’t work, then I don’t blame you for being mad, but you have to try first.
I’m so tired
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:26am
jillsmith says:
OH and I’ll keep toughening up. I’m plenty tough. I’m tough and smart enough to recognize when something is unhealthy and DO something about it. I don’t just need approval. I speak my mind all the time. If anything, I’m TOO opinionated, but that’s fine because it’s ME. I don’t think someone else has a right to psychoanalyze me and tell me what I feel. You know NOTHING of what I feel and cannot assign emotions to me. To tell me that I need approval like a fact and that I doubt myself. MEAN, MEAN, MEAN!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:29am
heavenbound says:
Jill,
Everyone else does not agree…I don’t
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:29am
jillsmith says:
Skylar and EB did agree. Read. Bye.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:33am
kim frederick says:
No Jill, No sarcasm. I meant all the good things I said.
I never said everybody. I was speaking entirely from my own point of view. I think I was telling you what I most to need to hear myself. I feel like I have alot of these same issues. I am SO SORRY.
When I said “good people”, well I guess I like to think of myself as good people, but I only meant me. And yeah. It makes ME uncomfortable, and I was trying to figure out why…
Okay. I’m done explaining, but I hope you understand that I’m sorry.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:34am
jillsmith says:
Not EB. EB just stated it in a nice way. She’s nice about it at least. Okay. Now I’m going, but not to bed. No sleep for me tonight now and now I have this stupid sleeping pill in my system and just feel wound up and drugged out on Ambien at the same time. This is my first time ever taking sleep medication and NOW THIS.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:35am
heavenbound says:
Jill,
Please do not be hateful with me, I did read.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:36am
jillsmith says:
Heaven,
I didn’t mean it in a hateful tone. I swear. I went back and read it and can easily see that it was mean in one. I’ll admit my tone to Kim might be considered hateful. I was speaking up for myself and I am not the best at it but I wanted to make it very clear that boundaries are violated for me when someone tells me how I feel and sums me up or judges me. It was not a very good response to a simple question I asked.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:45am
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, I think you are fabulous! That is my highest compliment! You have never made me feel uncomfortable, I have learned a lot from your posts, you are very insightful and able to write so well, this is your victory day and please know that we are here with love in our hearts for you and your son. I wish you lived next door so we could talk.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:47am
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, that post was not about you, it just got caught in the crossfire.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:50am
ErinBrock says:
Jill:
I support you and commend what you did with the TPO tonight and I am really bummed your joy has been hijacked, you didn’t deserve that low…..I’m not sure what/how you are interpreting my posts…..but I can’t defend something that I never said or intended.
I hope you reconsider…..
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:54am
kim frederick says:
Jill, You are right. I had absolutely no right to tell you how you feel or what you are. It was a boundry violation, and I’m glad you told me so. I’m trying to learn about myself every day. I meant no harm, but I understand that I did harm.
I am sorry.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:58am
OxDrover says:
Guys, 90% of “communication” is body language, ,and the written word alone is a difficult thing to communicate the emotions that we communicate here.
Plus, we are all RAW to one extent or another. Some of us are in different places on the road toward healing.
One of the problems with any group of 2 or more people grieving is one may be in the “bargaining” stage and another in the “anger” stage and it so on, so it is easy for them to not comprehend where the other one is coming from.
Except for the occasional TROLL (I saw and read that guy last night and picked up quickly that he/she/it was “gonna be trouble”) my P-dar was working pretty well last night. Just the NAME itself was a pretty good clue! The stance of being an “expert” on Ps also gave him/her/it a sense of “danger” to me.
I went to bed before it “turned ugly” so didn’t read anything except that Donna had removed it this morning.
Except for a FEW individuals who come here with waht I call the “gasoline and fire” back grounds, a co-abuser who has “lost” the latest round with their co-abuser and present themselves as “victims” but then become abusive toward others in their stance that they had NO responsibility or accountablity for their own choices. Fortuantely right now we don’t have that.
Let’s each of us PRESUME that unless someone calls us a nasty name OUTRIGHT, that their intentions are HONORABLE. About 99.99% of the time that will be right. If someone says something taht you even THINK triggers you, inistead of getting mad and leaving or threatening to leave, what about saying something like ” sussie, when you say xyz, *I am triggered.”
But we need to keep in mind that NO ONE can “make us feel” ANYTHING if WE DON’T ALLOW IT.
Even if someone does call you a b1atch, so what? Hit the report abuse button and DONNA WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. I promise you, TRUST ehr because she WILL come through.
We all have different opinons about things, and sometimes we think someone is DEAD WRONG and we can and do say it (hopefully with kindness). Each of us in the end, though, is responsible for their own healing, their own marching forward (or not as the case may be).
None of us is 100% “healthy” (that’s why we’re here folks! DUH!) But, each of us is WORKING on healing and being better tomorrow than today TOWANDA FOR US! We should respect that in ourselves and in others.
I’m a cranky old woman and I speak plainly. If I disagree with you I will say so. If you are doing something I think is counter productive I will say so, it does not mean I think you are a bad person or that I am attacking you. It simply means I disagree with you, and I may try to persuade you with my “reasoning” but no one is obligated to take my advice.
I have probably made more mistakes than any 10 of you put together in my life (I’ve lived longer in most cases) and I’ll make mistakes again, but I am MOVING TOWARD THE LIGHT, at least in teh right direction most days! I can’t fix the bad guys, but I am working hard on fixing me, as I know you all are working on fixing yourselves, healing yourselves.
Setting boundaries is difficult, especially when we are raw, we over react to any perceived threat, we are hypervigilent (oh, boy was I EVER hyper!) but I am past that now (most of the time) but I realize that others aren’t always past it. That’s okay, it will pass. That’s why I think it is soooo VERY important that we STAY here even when the going gets rough. Take a break if you need to but don’t anyone “get mad and leave.” Work out your problems with another blogger in a kind and logical way.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 10:29am
jillsmith says:
Oxy,
I am actually pretty shocked that no one else said anything about the post Kim made to me. Did read the language she used to me after I asked a simple quetion then stated that something made me sad. I specifically said it made me feel triggered. Then, Kim posted that comment, AFTER I said I was triggered. I was the only one who wasn’t hiding, playing passive-aggressive or outright games with the Evil Clown. I am the only one who just told him that I did not want to engage with him socially and I drew my boundary.
Now, each time I am not on here for a while, Skylar has said something about me or tried to put words in my mouth and speak FOR me. She did this the other day by planting that seed and making me look pathetic in the comment she made to you about my apology to you for continuing a topic you wanted to end. I feel it was rude to use me to try to make you look bad and then she ended up slamming me unfairly. Couple with Tilly’s constant following me around the board before, it was easy for Skylar to plant little seeds, then voila! You get people like Kim who just want to jump on the bandwagon of picking on someone. Were they mad I came onto the board saying I was celebrating because of the hugest victory of my life? Why would they do that? What is going on there? By the way, my version of celebrating is to go for 2 for 1 personal pizza special around the corner and have chocolate ice-cream, not pop pills and get drunk, like others. I am actually TRYING to recover, so to deal with Skylar is difficult. I don’t deal well with drunk people. I shouldn’t have to have patience with drunk people. This isn’t a frat house. It was a weeknight, for heaven’s sake.
You know that my stance has NEVER been to leave for good and take my toys and go. Remember the post I posted a few days ago about how I didn’t think this was a good idea? I also stated that I noticed there is a lot of contention on the board and that I needed to take that into account when deciding if it is healthy for me to be here or not. I have taken a lot of time and care with this decision, because I learn so much and appreciate people like you on this board.
As I aws thinking about it all, I started noting how many times I was in a perfectly good mood and even happy for the first time in a long time. I then would come to the board and immediately get triggered and rightfully so when I come back on here and read comments that were written behind my back and using my name. Even Skylar’s post attacking EVERYONE the other night had my name. She brought me into all of this unfairly while I was gone for a whole month. I came on to read she said claimed I felt the same way about the board as her. She also said the comment to you about my apology to make me look pathetic and spinelesss, which Kim bought into perfectly, not even seeing what was going on. Skylar has played a very destructive game and I am not the only person she has hurt through this. It was so much gaslighting and undercurrent meanness covered with nice compliments, that it took me a very long time to figure out last night. When I saw her post about how she only has a few years left and wants to enjoy them, I noticed it is the EXACT same language her supposed P said to her in those supposed emails and phone conversations where she supposedly wrote down everything from an answering machine. The language she used is in her voice. As someone with a background in linguistics, it was not difficult for me to pick up on this, once I saw it. I have never been anything but nice and supportive of Skylar and I was not fake about it. I did not deserve any of this.
The good news is that I have been recovering enough to KNOW that I do not deserve it and to not hang around somewere that feels abusive right while I’m trying to heal from serious abuse. Taking all of this into consideration and coming on here again and again to find the same thing, I would be a stupid human being to continue behavior that is so obviously not working for me. It was time to reframe and start some new, healthy habits to put in the place.
I’ll be fine. I have a great therapist. Additionally, I go to a exmormon recovery support board. There are an average of 100,000 hits a day on that recovery site, so recovering from cult programming is a bit deal. As I have proceeded with therapy over the years, I have had great therapists who have helped me get to the root of my “problem”. At the root of BOTH cases of physical and sexual abuse in my life, were mormon men who are direct descendents of Joseph Smith (so am I). If you’re a mormon with ancestors who were pioneers who walked across the country to Utah. My family is the real deal mormon family, dating back to Joe himself. It’s nto hard to be related to him though when he had dozens of wives and fathered so many kids. ALL mormon men practiced this gross sexual deviant practice. He even married 13 year olds and no, this was not a common age to marry back then, as many mormons will say to defend him. The average age of marriage then was 18-19. Historical documents and census results prove this to be true. He STOLE people’s wives. He told them that God told him that they were supposed to go on a mission to Europe for sometimes 5 to 10 years. Since he had convinced them all that he had private conversations with God all of the time and that if you disobey him (he claimed to be a prophet), that you would never see your family again in the after-life and that it was a sin worse than murder. So, then the men would go, and Joseph would marry their wives AND daughters. He married children of women he married. He fathered many children to very young girls who had just gone through puberty. He then taught a whole group of people that this is how men are supposed to treat women and that women are “their possessions” Mormons still say that women are their husband’s possessions and they can only go to heaven if they do exactly what their leader/owner/husband tells them to do. Period. That is why my family got mad when I left my P. They think that I condemning my child to a life in hell because they claim that only my ex-husband can “save” me when Jesus comes. This is honestly and truly how they view the world. Luckily, I used my brain after years of being brainwashed and knew I smelled a poopy diaper. Mormonism is a whole culture though, not just a religion. They even told me what underwear I had to wear. I wen through their temple when I was 21 and had to wear their silly underwear they claim is magic. That’s SHORTS and an undershirt made of polyester under all of my clothes, all the time, even when home alone in my own home with my husband. You have to wear your undershirt OVER your bra, which is gross and weird. You even have to do it in Arizona’s 115 degree temperatures, or you won’t go to heaven. Additionally, Joseph Smith was nothing but a conman. What exmoromons are recovering from specifically is a great con. They even say JS was a Sociopath in my other recovery forum and talk about and educate themselves about sociopaths all the time. He was a 14 year-old magician and treasure hunter. That’s what he did for fun. He was hunting for gold and treasures in the woods when he claimed he found the gold Book of Mormon and Jesus and Heavenly Father came down (with glowing, physical bodies) and told him to start this cult. He then forced all members to pay 10% of their income and often everything they own. I was taught that anything I own is really not mine, but the mormon church’s. This is what I was taught growing up. I spent 20-30 hours of unpaid work in that cult, starting with assignments and jobs when I was only 16 years old. Now, Mormons are being told to double their tithing and receive more rewards and no, tithing is not really a choice when you are told that they only way you can be saved and go to heaven is to pay it, since you were a child. I had to pay birthday card money from my tithing and my babysitting. It doesn’t go to charity, like they claim. 1% of this money goes to tithing. The mormon church is not shy in saying their goal is to convert the whole world. That is why they do what is called “baptisms for the dead” when they baptize people who have died by proxy. Kids can do this part of temple work, so at 12 I had to get dunked over and over again in a pool of water for 30 minutes straight for all these dead people. Then, I had to do it again and again in between breaks. This how I spent my Saturdays growing up. Then, not to mention seminary at 5:00 in the morning every morning in Jr. High and High School. All to be told what was wrong with me because I was a woman and that abuse is okay kept within families. You may wonder where their other 99% of billions of dollars go? Well, for one, they are building a MALL in Salt Lake City that they just announced will now cost 3 Billion dollars. Yes, you read right. Research it. Two clicks on google and you can read all of this stuff for yourself. They only claim to give lots of money to charity. They are using stories about mothers going without heat and water to pay their tithing and promise that these women will be blessed. The leaders still take jets all over and have salaries of 500,000 plus limos and the list of their vacation spots around the world and their million dollar condos in Salt Lake. The list of their sicknesses goes on and on. They tell starving members in Argentina to pay this too. Why? So that the rich mormons can shop and give the mormon cult even more money.
My ex even looks like Joseph Smith, which makes sense since it’s his relative. Most mormons look very similar because of all of the inbreeding for years. My psychological problems could have something to do with years of this rape and inbreeding. That effects genetics, you know. I explained all of this because many times my experiences as a mormon have all been brused aside and I was told all religions are like this. I wish people would do research before making statements like this. Mormons seem nice and normal because they put great effort into doing so. They specifically don’t tell people about all of this weird stuff (if ever) until AFTER they are baptized and sucked in. It’s very hush-hush and you have no idea about mormons. It is not a religion. It is a destructive cult where millions of members are taught to do everything ONE man says, no matter what. I even took a blood oath in their secret temple where I had to do a gesture with all of the other people there, acting out disembowling myself and killing myself or letting someone kill me if I tell about the temple. I did a slitting throat hand motion and disembowlment re-enactment motion to “symbolize” my oath before God that I would kill myself if I told anything about the temple. Now I say HOGWASH. I’ll tell anyone anything I want to about any of the experiences of my life. I won’t keep their secrets anymore. By the way, they did actually kill mormons for telling these things only 150 year ago. They were called Danites. It’s historical. They also killed many Dutch immigrants in Utah at the Mountain Meadow Massacre. They dressed up as Native Americans and murdered women and men and some children, with axes. This is true and historical. PBS even did a special on it. I was working on a documentary too, categorizing the vioence of this cultish organization. They then took all of the kids and adopted them. This was only a couple hundred year ago. Can you imagine being one of those kids? The crazy mormons were so paranoid that the Dutch immigrants were sent by the government to stop the polygamy that they escaped across the country to still practice, illegally in Utah. This was just a normal, nice group of Dutch pioneers who were not violent and who were NOT sent by the goverment. The mormon leader ordered these murders in the name of being able to have sex and rape multiple women and children, forcing them to marry and be one of dozens of wives. It’s sick. Now do you think the mormon cult is so innocent and the same as other relgions. You can look all of this stuff up because there it’s true and there are many historical documents backing it up. Mormons cannot produce ONE SINGLE document to back up any of their ridiculous claims. Now you know the damage that one Sociopath can do. The pain that Joseph Smith has caused is beyond understanding. It will be with this country for hundreds of years until people wise up and stop letting Sociopaths run the show.
So, I am still going to learn about and stay away from Sociopaths through my other, much more healthy for me, recovery group. Anyway, sorry to leave like this, but I have felt very misunderstood and attacked here and I’m trying to make emotional decisions that are healthy. And no, this is NOT like real life on this board. I understand why all of this goes on because there are so many unhealthy people on here playing off of each other, but it’s not for me anymore. Please take good care of yourselves. I do care about you and wish you the best.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
jillsmith says:
Oxy,
In the above comment, only the beginning was for you specifially. The rest was for the general audience of readers. Sorry to confuse. Oh. Should I say sorry for saying sorry?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:32pm
jillsmith says:
Here’s an easier to read version of my above comment, that is more appropriately broken up into paragrahs. I realize the above comment is hard to read:
Oxy,
I am actually pretty shocked that no one else said anything about the post Kim made to me. Did read the language she used to me after I asked a simple quetion then stated that something made me sad. I specifically said it made me feel triggered. Then, Kim posted that comment, AFTER I said I was triggered. I was the only one who wasn’t hiding, playing passive-aggressive or outright games with the Evil Clown. I am the only one who just told him that I did not want to engage with him socially and I drew my boundary.
Now, each time I am not on here for a while, Skylar has said something about me or tried to put words in my mouth and speak FOR me. She did this the other day by planting that seed and making me look pathetic in the comment she made to you about my apology to you for continuing a topic you wanted to end. I feel it was rude to use me to try to make you look bad and then she ended up slamming me unfairly. Couple with Tilly’s constant following me around the board before, it was easy for Skylar to plant little seeds, then voila! You get people like Kim who just want to jump on the bandwagon of picking on someone. Were they mad I came onto the board saying I was celebrating because of the hugest victory of my life? Why would they do that? What is going on there? By the way, my version of celebrating is to go for 2 for 1 personal pizza special around the corner and have chocolate ice-cream, not pop pills and get drunk, like others. I am actually TRYING to recover, so to deal with Skylar is difficult. I don’t deal well with drunk people. I shouldn’t have to have patience with drunk people. This isn’t a frat house. It was a weeknight, for heaven’s sake.
You know that my stance has NEVER been to leave for good and take my toys and go. Remember the post I posted a few days ago about how I didn’t think this was a good idea? I also stated that I noticed there is a lot of contention on the board and that I needed to take that into account when deciding if it is healthy for me to be here or not. I have taken a lot of time and care with this decision, because I learn so much and appreciate people like you on this board.
As I aws thinking about it all, I started noting how many times I was in a perfectly good mood and even happy for the first time in a long time. I then would come to the board and immediately get triggered and rightfully so when I come back on here and read comments that were written behind my back and using my name. Even Skylar’s post attacking EVERYONE the other night had my name. She brought me into all of this unfairly while I was gone for a whole month. I came on to read she said claimed I felt the same way about the board as her. She also said the comment to you about my apology to make me look pathetic and spinelesss, which Kim bought into perfectly, not even seeing what was going on. Skylar has played a very destructive game and I am not the only person she has hurt through this. It was so much gaslighting and undercurrent meanness covered with nice compliments, that it took me a very long time to figure out last night. When I saw her post about how she only has a few years left and wants to enjoy them, I noticed it is the EXACT same language her supposed P said to her in those supposed emails and phone conversations where she supposedly wrote down everything from an answering machine. The language she used is in her voice. As someone with a background in linguistics, it was not difficult for me to pick up on this, once I saw it. I have never been anything but nice and supportive of Skylar and I was not fake about it. I did not deserve any of this.
The good news is that I have been recovering enough to KNOW that I do not deserve it and to not hang around somewere that feels abusive right while I’m trying to heal from serious abuse. Taking all of this into consideration and coming on here again and again to find the same thing, I would be a stupid human being to continue behavior that is so obviously not working for me. It was time to reframe and start some new, healthy habits to put in the place.
I’ll be fine. I have a great therapist. Additionally, I go to a exmormon recovery support board. There are an average of 100,000 hits a day on that recovery site, so recovering from cult programming is a bit deal. As I have proceeded with therapy over the years, I have had great therapists who have helped me get to the root of my “problem”. At the root of BOTH cases of physical and sexual abuse in my life, were mormon men who are direct descendents of Joseph Smith (so am I). I
was a mormon with ancestors who were pioneers who walked across the country to Utah.. My family is the real deal mormon family, dating back to Joe himself. It’s nto hard to be related to him though when he had dozens of wives and fathered so many kids. ALL mormon men practiced this gross sexual deviant practice. Joseph even married 13 year olds and no, this was not a common age to marry back then, as many mormons will say to defend him. The average age of marriage then was 18-19. Historical documents and census records prove this to be true. He STOLE people’s wives. He told them that God told him that they were supposed to go on a mission to Europe for sometimes 5 to 10 years. Since he had convinced them all that he had private conversations with God all of the time and that if you disobey him (he claimed to be a prophet), that you would never see your family again in the after-life and that it was a sin worse than murder. So, then the men would go, and Joseph would marry their wives AND daughters. He married children of women he married. He fathered many children to very young girls who had just gone through puberty.
Joseph then taught a whole group of people that this is how men are supposed to treat women and that women are “their possessions” Mormons still say that women are their husband’s possessions (literally) and they can only go to heaven if they do exactly what their leader/owner/husband tells them to do. Period. That is why my family got mad when I left my P. They think that I condemning my child to a life in hell because they claim that only my ex-husband can “save” me when Jesus comes. This is honestly and truly how they view the world.
Luckily, I used my brain after years of being brainwashed and knew I smelled a poopy diaper, so after years of trying to deprogram this cult from my brain, I don’t buy this junk at all. Mormonism is a whole culture though, not just a religion. When people leave it, they often lose all their friends and family, much like with a P. I have lost it all twice now.
They even told me what underwear I had to wear, people! I went through their temple when I was 21 and had to wear their silly underwear they claim is magic. That’s SHORTS to my knew and an undershirt with sleeves made of polyester under all of my clothes, all the time, even when home alone in my own home with my husband. You have to wear your undershirt OVER your bra, which is gross and weird. You even have to do it in Arizona’s 115 degree temperatures, or you won’t go to heaven. A
dditionally, Joseph Smith was nothing but a conman. What exmoromons are recovering from specifically is a great con. They even say JS was a Sociopath in my other recovery forum and talk about and educate themselves about sociopaths all the time. He was a 14 year-old magician and treasure hunter. That’s what he did for fun. He was hunting for gold and treasures in the woods when he claimed he found the gold Book of Mormon and Jesus and Heavenly Father came down (with glowing, physical bodies) and told him to start this cult.
He then forced all members to pay 10% of their income and often everything they own. I was taught that anything I own is really not mine, but the mormon church’s. This is what I was taught growing up. I spent 20-30 hours of unpaid work in that cult, starting with assignments and jobs when I was only 16 years old. Now, Mormons are being told to double their tithing and receive more rewards and no, tithing is not really a choice when you are told that they only way you can be saved and go to heaven is to pay it, since you were a child. I had to pay birthday card money from my tithing and my babysitting. It doesn’t go to charity, like they claim. 1% of this money goes to tithing. The mormon church is not shy in saying their goal is to convert the whole world. That is why they do what is called “baptisms for the dead” when they baptize people who have died by proxy. Kids can do this part of temple work, so at 12 I had to get dunked over and over again in a pool of water for 30 minutes straight for all these dead people. Then, I had to do it again and again in between breaks. This how I spent my Saturdays growing up. Then, not to mention seminary at 5:00 in the morning every morning in Jr. High and High School. All to be told what was wrong with me because I was a woman and that abuse is okay kept within families. You may wonder where their other 99% of billions of dollars go? Well, for one, they are building a MALL in Salt Lake City that they just announced will now cost 3 Billion dollars. Yes, you read right. Research it. Two clicks on google and you can read all of this stuff for yourself. They only claim to give lots of money to charity. They are using stories about mothers going without heat and water to pay their tithing and promise that these women will be blessed. The leaders still take jets all over and have salaries of 500,000 plus limos and the list of their vacation spots around the world and their million dollar condos in Salt Lake. The list of their sicknesses goes on and on. They tell starving members in Argentina to pay this too. Why? So that the rich mormons can shop and give the mormon cult even more money.
My ex even looks like Joseph Smith, which makes sense since it’s his relative. Most mormons look very similar because of all of the inbreeding for years. My psychological problems could have something to do with years of this rape and inbreeding. That effects genetics, you know.
I have explained all of this because a few times my experiences as a mormon have all been brushed aside on this board and I was told all religions are like this. I wish people would do research before making statements like this. Mormons seem nice and normal because they put great effort into doing so. It’s ALL about appearances. They specifically don’t tell people about all of this weird stuff (if ever) until AFTER they are baptized and sucked in. It’s very hush-hush and you have no idea about mormons. It is not a religion. It is a destructive cult where millions of members are taught to do everything ONE man says, no matter what.
I even was forced to take a something called a “blood oath” in their secret temple where I had to do a gesture with all of the other people there, acting out disembowling myself and killing myself or letting someone kill me if I tell about the temple. I did a slitting throat hand motion and disembowlment re-enactment motion to “symbolize” my oath before God that I would kill myself if I told anything about the temple. Now I say HOGWASH. I’ll tell anyone anything I want to about any of the experiences of my life. I won’t keep their secrets anymore. By the way, they did actually killed mormons who told these things only 150 year ago. They were called Danites. It’s historical. Please, look it up if you are curious or doubting.
Mormons committed the biggest act of terrorism since 911. It is the largest act of terrorism with the most deaths of Americans against other Americans. They also killed many Dutch immigrants who came to Utah from Arkansas. They came to meet their death and have their children kidnapped. This horrific event occurred at Mountain Meadows in Utah and is called the Mountain Meadow Massacre. I have been there, to the memorial. The mormons dressed up as Native Americans and murdered women and men and some children, with axes. This is true and historical. PBS even did a special on it 2 years ago, finally! I was working on a documentary too, categorizing the vioence of this cultish organization. After slaughtering these men, women and children, they took all of the remaining kids they did not murder and adopted them. This was only a couple hundred year ago. Can you imagine being one of those kids? The crazy mormons were so paranoid that the Dutch immigrants were sent by the government to stop the polygamy that they escaped across the country to still practice, illegally in Utah. This was just a normal, nice group of Dutch pioneers who were not violent and who were NOT sent by the goverment. The mormon leader ordered these murders in the name of being able to have sex and rape multiple women and children, forcing them to marry and be one of dozens of wives. It’s sick. The mormons followed their prophet and did as he told them to do so, thinking that he (this prophet who ordered this was the second mormon prophet, Brigham Young) talked to God about it and that they would not go to heaven unless they followed these orders to murder. What about this does not sound Sociopathic? That isn’t even Joseph Smith. Many of these abusive control-freak leaders were Ps, in my opinion.
Now do you think the mormon cult is so innocent and the same as other relgions? You can look all of this stuff up because there it’s true and there are many historical documents backing it up. Mormons cannot produce ONE SINGLE document to back up any of their ridiculous claims. Now you know the damage that one Sociopath can do. The pain that Joseph Smith has caused is beyond understanding. It will be with this country for hundreds of years until people wise up and stop letting Sociopaths run the show.
So, I am still going to learn about and stay away from Sociopaths through my other, much more healthy for me, recovery group. Anyway, sorry to leave like this, but I have felt very misunderstood and attacked here and I’m trying to make emotional decisions that are healthy. And no, this is NOT like real life on this board. I understand why all of this goes on because there are so many unhealthy people on here playing off of each other, but it’s not for me anymore. Please take good care of yourselves. I do care about you and wish you the best.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:49pm
OxDrover says:
Darling Jill,
I know you feel you have been attacked. I validate what you are saying about your FEELINGS. Whether you were attacked is not something I can not say yea or nay on. What I am saying is that even if you feel perfectly justified in feeling that way, basic bottom line, is that sometimes we are RAW and feel the slightest “tinyest” thing in a BIG TIME WAY. I am saying that from my own experience.
Step back kfor a second, and JUST LOOK AT what you have been through.
1) a hyper religious upbringing that you now believe is a cult
2) parents who did not validate your feelings but instead persecuted you for your beliefs
3) a brother who was abusive & no one validated your abuse.
4) a man who is dangerous and threatening to your and your son’s safety,
5) living in a shelter
6) this has been going on for over two years
Now, who on God’s green earth would not be hypervigilent, stressed to the max, and so on? What would NOT trigger you?
Honey, you have been through enough to strangle a camel! I personally think you are doing well, and wonderfully considering what you have been through and are just now starting to relax a tiny bit. YOU ARE DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT! You are taking care of yourself and your son, going to therapy, taking medication….being good to yourself!
BTW TOWANDA that your X is finally not such a legal threat to your baby and you!
If someone here on LF WAS *(I’m not sayiing IS, or accusing anyone, but just maybe) rude to you, all I am asking of YOU is that you just put it to rest now and not stew over it. In the BIG scheme of things, it is a tiny thing.
When others don’t validate us (anywhere, any time) it can hurt, but also WE CAN control our feelings about it. There are people here from time to time who OPENLY attack me, I guess because I am a mouthy old witch and I do write articles here so they think maybe I’m judging or criticizing them, but you know what…I’m at a place NOW where I can just blow it off and say “well, old suzzie has her panties in a wad today” and not let it “get to me.” It took me a WHILE to get there.
There was a time here when when someone said something “tacky” to me I would be hurt and/or angry and feel like going away. Or worse, If someone thought I had attacked them, I would feel GUILT and FEAR that I might have driven someone away from LF.
Over all, I have really had VERY few problems on LF with people who “got offended” with me and those people for the most part ended up leaving in a huff or they got banned by Donna for abusive stuff to me AND/OR others.
So I have made the STEP forward in not letting things “get to me” like I used to when I was so RAW from all the BIG ABUSE.
It’s kind of like when you are sick, the “sound” of a fly crawling across the ceiling is HORRIBLE, but when you are well, you don’t even notice the fly. LOL When someone says something you think is “tacky” just “blow it off” and say to yourself “Wow, Old Suzzie has a problem today.” And, that is generally what it is, that or just poor wording (I do that a lot)
“Should I say sorry for saying sorry?” LOL Nah, just be your sweet self and keep on doing what you are doing. You are taking care of yourself and I can SEE MARKED PROGRESS in the steps you have made since you have been here, Jill! (((Hugs))) and my prayers for ALL OF US here at LF.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:04pm
shabbychic says:
jillsmith, I will miss you… I thought I made it clear last night that I did not agree with Kim’s post, if I did not reply strongly enough, I apologize (for real!) I was not hiding from Evil Clown, Donna has asked us 10,000 times not to engage with predators… so I was just ignoring him, but Clown and the people who were talking to him changed the vibe of the board into an ugly arrogant place, and when I saw you post… such exciting news about your custody issues, I didn’t want to NOT respond because I was so happy for you.
Thank you for the information on the Mormon’s, I know they are a cult, but I did not know 95% of the info you wrote about.
I have only good feelings about you and respect you a great deal. You are a beautiful person, I think your one tough little cookie!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:10pm
jillsmith says:
Thanks Oxy and shabbychic,
I will miss you guys. I don’t think you owe me any kind of an apology at all, shabby. I adore you and was grateful for your words last night. I should have taken the time to tell you that. I was caught up in that nasty whirlwind last night and was too distracted. Thanks for both of your love and support. I wish you all the best.
Love,
Jill
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
skylar says:
Jill,
I hear that you are feeling unhappy about the things that were said last night. I assure you for myself and – I think I can speak for Kim – none of it was meant in a mean spirited way toward you. Not last night or ever before. People thought they were making helpful comments but maybe they just chose the wrong words.
I like you and respect what you have survived, Jill. I’ve never said anything derogatory toward you. My post a while back which mentioned you was only that I remember you asked about “cliques” on LF. Do you remember that? I thought it was unfortunate that anyone could come on this board and think that there are cliques and I hoped people would think about how we had created that kind of appearance and maybe try not to do that anymore. I WAS NOT BLAMING YOU FOR THAT APPEARANCE, I was asking the members to think about how WE create that appearance. I also said that it might be better if people felt more comfortable disagreeing about topics of discussion. Because it seems to me that there is some peer pressure here to agree with each other. I just don’t see that as a learning environment when dissenting opinions are doused. The fact is, that I had observed this but never said anything until I felt like I had been attacked repeatedly for choosing to have contact with my xP. Then someone was apologizing for posting in my defence and others apologized just for having posted after Oxy’s suggested we drop the subject. I thought, how ironic…who decides what information is good and what isn’t?
I don’t know how to convince you that we all like you. I can hear how hurt you are. Kim did apologize to you, she took full blame for her choice of words. I don’t know what else she could do. Please don’t be angry at her, she is very sensitive too.
BTW, I wasn’t drunk, I did take half a lunesta, and you took an AMBIEN, so we were on (almost) the same page (my doctor doesn’t approve of ambien he says its too harsh). I like to joke around with people on this board in the evening. I like to have a laugh and encourage others to make comic retorts, I thought everyone enjoyed these cyber-parties where we PRETEND to be waving skillets and drinks. That’s why I was elusive when EC asked what I was drinking. I didn’t want to admit it was apple juice. OK?
On another subject, that guy, EC, was actually very informative for me. He mentioned Frame Control and I had never heard of it. I have been using the word “stories” to explain why the P’s can lie and stick to their lies no matter how you present the truth to them.
I began researching Frame Control today and it’s amazing the information I found. It’s a term pickup artists are using for manipulating women. P’s do this naturally from childhood, but there are entire books written about the techniques, for people who don’t have this natural ability but want to be like a P. (pathetic?)
I think this is really important information for us to have so we know when we are being targetted by a PUA (pick up artist) This is some of what I found.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seduction_community
For me, having this information gives me a big boost in identifying RED FLAGS. If someone needs to use “techniques” to get to know me, I don’t think I want to know them.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:51pm
jillsmith says:
Skylar,
Thanks for taking the time to post this to me. I’m still confused about all of the gas lighting (is that the phrase?) that I have seen the last couple of times it has been on here. I don’t know where or who it’s coming from. I have my theories, but they are just that and not fact. The only thing I DO know is what I feel and I have to honor my feelings and heal. Yes, Oxy is right that we have a choice to how we react to other people. No one MAKES us feel a certain way. I’ve always had this view. We also have a right to speak up for ourselves and leave unhealthy environments. This is part of being emotionally healthy.
I’m not mad at you. I’m not mad or angry at Kim. I felt very hurt and confused by Kim last night, but she explained things. The more I think about it, the more I believe her intentions, but her words still hurt me. She didn’t intend to do so though. I’m not going to waste my time on any silly grudges and wish you all the best. Take good care of yourselves. I’m not leaving because I’m mad or want someone to feel guilty. I woud never want someone to feel a negative emotion because of me. Especially not any of you who have been hurt. I just have to do what is right for me.
I’ll admit I was mad last night and hurt and confused. Today I am being empowered and taking controll back of my life. I felt like I gave that control away last night and let a handful of people hijack my recovery. I’m the one that allowed that and I need to be stronger. I’m working on it.
Take care. I’m sorry for being so suspect of you. I just don’t really know what to make of all of this, but I’m just going to let it all go. I am very hurt, so I’m going to go heal. I don’t need this in my life right now. I’m in control of who I let in and don’t in my life. I have not exercised this basic right and need enough in my life in the past, so I honor myself by doing so now. I know that not all of you agree with this personal approach and philosophy that I have chosen to apply to my own life. I’m me though and I’m the one in charge of my life, so I’m doing it anyway. Please take good care of yourselves and thanks for sharing your friendship and support.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:19pm
skylar says:
EC, I’m not allowed to talk to you. sorry, it isn’t fair, but I don’t own this blog, Donna does and those are her rules. You will have to ask her for permission or something.
I do appreciate the FC info.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:29pm
skylar says:
Jill, gas-lighting is when you tell people that the sky is falling or there will be breadlines, the aliens are coming, you should worry about this or that.
I thought I was very keen to gas-lighting but I didn’t notice any. I would ask you to give me an example but I’m afraid someone might take offense if you point out their behavior.
Oh, I have an idea. Use me as an example, maybe I did something that you consider gaslighting? I won’t be offended if you tell me. If I don’t think I did it, I will simply explain why it was a misunderstanding.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 2:35pm
Donna Andersen says:
Jill Smith,
On behalf of Lovefraud, I want to apologize for any statements posted in these comments that were hurtful to you.
I also want to thank you for the information you posted about the Mormons. It was very enlightening. It must have been awful to grow up under those conditions.
Congratulations on your victory about your child. That is the best news ever!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 3:36pm
jillsmith says:
Thank you, Donna. I think that my over-sensitivity is also one factor. At least I made it out of mormonism.
LF: Did any of you hear about the 6 men in MO who sexually abused family members for years? They are from a branch of the Mormon church. Actually, the sect they happen to be in is the exact same as the original mormon religion, but without the polygamy because it’s illegal. The main sect has changed a lot of the earlier mormon doctrine, but this sect is the very original mormon church. This kind of thing is very common in mormon families. It was not just happening in my mormon family. Here’s a link: http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/.....google_cnn
Okay. Now I’ll give it a rest because I know this is not a mormon recovery forum. I just thought the story of these guys had a similar ring to it as other major sex abuse sociopathic crimes we have talked about on here. Thank you for caring and being interested in what I posted about mormonism. I have have been dealing with the scars they left since I first left their organization in 2000. I have begun to think I may never get past it. Thanks for your kind message though. I sound very negative because I’m having a very hard day after last night. This is the hardest day I have had since being with my abuser.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 3:52pm
jillsmith says:
FYI: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the same thing as mormon. Mormon is just the nick-name.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 3:55pm
blueskies says:
Jill, can I jump in with a big hug here, I’ve been reading since I got in from work a couple of hours ago(work!!!I got a job!!! oh yeah look at me go!…ahem)x.I am really sorry you are having a crap day:( xx Lots of love to you lady.x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:02pm
blueskies says:
Just because I think this is a troll; Allah means ‘god’, and whatever you call it, or feel it, there is no fear there in my book.x speakin from a spiritual of no abode point of view:)x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:11pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
I’ve been gone for a few days, and just checked in and read this thread. First, I want to send healing energy to everyone who’s been discombobulated by this exchange. And, as a professional communicator, I’m offering some feedback on what’s been going on. (No one asked for my feedback, so take it for what it’s worth.)
Someone in the thread mentioned their confusion about whether sincere compliments could be wrong to say. And I may have created some of that confusion in previous posts.
If we have a need for reassurance, a compliment can feel like a very good thing. More than that, it can feel like a sort of medicine for our lack of self-confidence. It can make us feel stronger and sort of “filled in” where we felt a little empty before.
So it really depends on our needs. But the risk of compliments — and the reason they become less important or sometimes even unwanted as we get stronger — is that they are judgments about us. That is, they are other people’s opinions. If we are feeling needy, those opinions may make us feel better, but they can also trigger our feelings of insecurity or inadequacy, if they push the wrong button. If we are feeling stronger, we may find them intrusive, something like getting unasked-for advice.
The same problem exists with unasked-for advice. Unless we know exactly what kind of feedback or suggestions another person is looking for, we risk sounding like we’re judging them or like we don’t think they’re competent to make their own decisions.
The really dangerous combination is compliments and unasked-for advice. Depending on we are with our healing, this can be fine. People who are in the early stages of trying to figure out what happened to them and struggling with self-destructive or self-hating thoughts or behaviors are often grateful for clear judgments and advice. But once they move into the “angry phase,” which may not be angry all the time but is involved with boundary-building and experimentation with judging and blaming, they become a lot more self-protective and resistant to be judged or told what to do, even by the most experienced or well-intentioned person.
The angry phase is when we really start to get well. But it doesn’t mean that we’re invulnerable. We’re building invulnerability — that is being our own authorities — but until we’re pretty advanced, we’re still prone to fear of other people hurting us (or viewing other people as just as sensitive as we are). So we can get all involved in protecting each other and trying to protect ourselves at the same time, while we’re also trying to be more assertive and self-referenced.
As long as we’re all going through this, there is really no way to avoid the kind of tangles that appeared in this thread. But there are some things we can do to make them less likely.
One of the most important is to talk about ourselves, rather than other people. If we’re reacting to something someone else said, it’s better to talk about what it means to us, rather than talking about that person. If we have thoughts about the other person, it’s better to characterize them clearly as related to the way we see things, how we do things, what has worked for us.
This is a place for mutual support, and in getting through our recoveries, our definition of mutual support changes. There was a time in my recovery when I needed some one to give me permission to think and feel the way I did. I wasn’t sure if I was justified in feeling hurt or entitled to feel angry. Later in my recovery, I needed to hear that my judging and boundary-building were good things, and that I wasn’t becoming a permanently angry person. Later I needed to be comforted as I went through the process of letting go of illusions and beliefs about my ex, myself and other things that came up. Later, I needed encouragement as I was rebuilding my life. Later, I needed honest feedback as I began to reach out to share what I’d learned with other people, because at that point I was building something outside myself and I needed to know how I was doing.
My point in going through my progression of needs is that the only things that hit home at any given point where what I needed then. The other things simply rolled off my back or, occasionally, upset me.
I know that most of us are so engaged in our own healing and the challenges it creates that we can’t always stop to think about what the other person needs or, even better, to ask them. We want and need to express ourselves. And one of the very good reasons for that is because we need to articulate our thinking as it’s evolving. To say, as I believe Skylar said, what we need to hear. In a way, we’re all practicing being who we want to be when we come through this.
Which brings me to the second thing that really helps in these situations. If someone is triggered, what they need more than anything else is acknowledgment and caring interest. Not apologies. Not explanations. Especially if we don’t really understand what triggered them. Saying something like, “Wow, you sound really upset. You said it was about this. Can you talk about it more so we understand?” give that person a chance to talk it out and clarify for his or herself what is really going on.
To do this, we have to let go of our own insecurities and feelings of responsibility for other people’s feelings, and just focus on them. It also gives us the opportunity to relate to how they feel. “That sounds like I felt when this happened to me…”
When one of these situations occurs, and the insecurities and blaming behavior start snowballing, we may have to do this with several people, but it’s worth it. Because each of those people get a chance to talk about their own triggers, and hopefully begin to work them out for themselves. And for those of us who are conscious and untriggered enough to facilitate them, it’s good practice in letting other people have their own feelings without feeling like it’s about us.
I know that may sound very odd. After all if they’re blaming us, it must be about us. But the truth is, it’s not. It’s about them and something that’s going on inside of them. If I trigger someone else’s feelings, the best thing I can do (assuming that person isn’t so threatened or angry that all communication is cut off) is to ask for more information. To explore what’s going on. So we both are clear about what the issue is — not just what I did, but more importantly what was triggered.
If we can ultimately get to the point where I said, “Now I understand what happened and I understand why you got so upset,” and the other person can say, “Now I understand why I was so upset, and it really wasn’t about you at all,” it’s over. And more than that, we’ve probably bonded through the process in a good way.
So as usual, a long post. But I hope there’s something useful in here.
Kathy
,
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:14pm
jillsmith says:
I have some thoughts on compliments. The reason why I compliment is a good one. Despite the rest of my family and certain ways she was taught to think, my mom was an extremely good mom and person. I believed her when she told me she had no idea I was being raped by my brother. She was a very loving person. There were over 1,000 people at her funeral in the town of 40,000 where I grew up. Part of it is because my parents are well known in this community. She was a semi-famous (in the Western region of the US) artist who was extremely successful in her art career. She was named Woman of the Year in my city and my dad is a city councilman. Not everything about my family was dysfunctional, just most. I lost the only good thing about my family when she died. I lost my very best friend in the whole world and this is the anniversary of her death, a couple of weeks ago. I’ve been thinking about her a lot. Anyway, she taught me some great things because she was such a loving woman who helped so, so many people through numerous ways. She was named one of the top 8 people who make a difference out of the whole STATE where I grew up. Anyway, when I was in Jr. High, I specifically remember some advice she gave me that I try my hardest to live by because I think it’s profound. I was telling her something good about a friend of mine and she asked me if I had told this friend this is how I feel. I told her I had not. She then told me that I should and I should NEVER hold back a compliment. She said that there are enough people in the world who only say things to put people down and that I should do my best to counter-act this by telling the person every single time I think something good about them. My compliments are sincere and the motivation is deeply personal and loving. Now you can understand where I’m coming from a little bit more.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:23pm
Donna Andersen says:
Thank you Kathy.
I would like to add that these painful situations often occur when some predator or troll comes to Lovefraud to stir the pot. That is why it is so important not to engage them. Some people may enjoy poking at the snake, but the entire exercise creates negative energy that affects all the other exchanges. Then we end up with misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
So please, you see someone who you feel is here to cause trouble, please report an abusive comment and then ignore that person.
Our process did not work last night. I received no abusive comment reports.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
Great big Hug from me too, and all you guys and gals!
I read a book years ago written in the 1800s by this young woman who was the like 20th wife of the 2nd prophet out in Utah (CRS with NAMES) and she told how she had been forced to marry him when she was a teenager and how he was an OLD man at the time. He put her to work as
FREE labor with some of his other wives on a remote dairy farm.
If she had refused to marry him, the Prophet would have had a “vision” that her father would have had to go on a missionary mission (at his own expense of course) and with multiple wives and kids left behind to have no support.
I have several friends who are of that faith, and THEY are good people, but there were also “good people” drank the poson in Jonestown too. I’m sure “Rev” Tony Alamo’s followers that gave him their 9 year old daughters as his plural wives also might have been deceived by his “speaking directly with god” I know it is not funny, in any way, when ANY belief system is used to force people to do things against their sense and will in order to be “pleasing to god”–AS INTERPRETED BY SOMEONE ELSE.
My “fundamentalist” upbringing was not a great deal less emotionally harsh than yours, but at least I did not have to wear the “underware.” When I started investigating what I DID believe, and removed the barriers to a SPIRITUAL relationship with my view of God, it actually made me have a stronger faith than before. I read the Bible with NEW eyes now. Without the angry, harsh prejudice and confusion I had before due to how I was taught.
I got a new appreciation for hypocracy in many “relilgous” people who try to preach their gospel at the point of an emotional spear. or an emotional club. Radicals of any sect of any religion who are willing to “convert” others at bayonet point scare me. Whether that is literal or figurative.
9/11 was caused by people who viewed anyone who was not their religion as less than human. this is not a new idea, it has been around for a long time during the days when one group would burn the others at the stake (depending on who the king believed was right). Probably going back to pre-history.
I’m glad you have a support group for this emotional abuse you suffered at the hands of your family in that aspect. I think you are on a solid path to healing Jill, you have all your ducks in a row! (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:37pm
jillsmith says:
Kathy,
Thanks for this. There is a lot to learn from in your post and it rings true for me. I have been flustered at the fact that I can feel so strong one minute and be good at drawing boundaries and letting things bounce off, then BOOM! Out of nowhere, I am triggered and feel attacked. It’s so frustrating because I have never dealt with this before the P. I think it might have something to do with PTSD. What do you think? I wasn’t like this before, and I was abused as a child. Why am I going through such a different process this time around? Why is what happened with my P so much more devestating to my life and self-identity than what my brother did to me? Was I numb before?
Your post gives me hope, because if I interpret it correctly, the fact that I finally have gotten to the anger stage and felt that emotion I was to taught to suppress my whole life, might actually be a good thing and mean I’m healing. This is a positive thing for me to focus on because I’m so scared of anger. I’m scared of the feeling. I hate it. It feels foreign and out of control. Anyway, I learned a lot about myself from your post and I think it’s very true.
I think I was so sensitive to Kim because I have said on the board so many times that my area of focus is on getting stronger and re-building my crushed self-esteem. It took a lot to analyze myself like this and a lot of courage to admit this to others. That’s why I think I felt attacked when Kim said, “I’m certainly not saying you are a bad person…You’re not. But I think you have some real self esteem problems.” I interpreted it as, “You have some real problems”, in a not-nice tone, even though she did in fact, not say it that way. It felt hurtful when I had just shared happy news and was feeling strong. It brought BACK my self-esteem issues and made me feel weak, embarrassed and unwelcome. It wasn’t her intention and it had everthing to do with my issues and vulnerablities because I had already said I was working on my self-esteem. I felt like my weak spot was punched. I’m very self-critical and hard on myself and the area I’m hardest on myself since the P is the fact that I’m now too sensitive and struggle with my self-esteem. In admitting this numerous times to the board in many posts, I made myself very vulnerable to the board. I felt exploited, but again, it has to do with my issues, not someone’s elses. Thanks for this insight, Kathy.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:45pm
jillsmith says:
Thanks for the support and compassion also, Oxy, blueskies, heaven and shabbychic. I so hope I’m not leaving anyone out, but all of the support has helped. I’m going to go take a nice lavender bubble bath to clear my unrested brain before my little one wakes from his nap. I’m going to go take care of me.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:54pm
jillsmith says:
P.S. I feel badly for adding to the contention of the board. I should not have done that and should have just walked away when I felt triggered. It’s a tricky thing when sticking up for ourselves the first time to hold back some. I was a little bit out of control with it and it detracted from the board and others’ healing and for that I apologize. It was not my intention, but I can now see that is what I did and I owe you all a sincere apology, so I am truly sorry for any uncomfort, annoyance or pain I have caused any of you. You don’t deserve that.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:56pm
jillsmith says:
P.P.S. I’m especially sorry to you, Donna. You put a lot of work into this board and you are the reason it’s even here and has helped me heal in the past, through certain people on here. When something like what happened last night happens, it takes aways from that and the general intention of the board and this is not fair to you. I am sorry.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 4:58pm
Donna Andersen says:
Jill Smith,
No worries. I’m just glad you seem to be feeling better.
It sounds to me like you’re moving through the healing process. I, too, spent much of my younger life numb, although not due to abuse (thank God). Still, when I was just learning to experience and cope with emotions, it wasn’t easy. But we get better with practice.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 5:20pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
jillsmith, that was a great post. I saw you were leaving for a bubble bath, but maybe you’ll catch this later.
As far as anger goes, if you haven’t read my articles on the angry phase in the series I was writing, you might find them useful. (Or if you read them before, they might resonate with you more now.)
I suspect that PSTD is a good way of thinking about some of the feelings you describe. But in a subtle way. If we are forced to deal with situations in which we cannot respond honestly about our feelings and needs (which is always the case with childhood abuse), we can pretty much assume that we’ve stifled our normal and natural anger responses. Another way of looking at this is that we get unnaturally tolerant of disrespectful behavior toward us or the pain it causes.
Learning to re-activate that natural anger response can be quite an experience. And I think that one of the big gifts that we get from sociopaths is a situation where, in recovery, it becomes abundantly clear that we should be angry. We don’t have to stifle anymore.
But untangling those wires is complicated. We tend to relate anger to violence or abuse, and we think that it’s dangerous or unattractive. In fact, the full spectrum of anger goes from simple confusion to dispassionate rejection, with lots of things in between including resentment, outrage, blaming and judging. The links between the various forms of anger is that is a reaction to something that we regard as a threat or a source of pain. Anger is a fundamental reaction that comes out of deep survival instinct, though it can become pretty sophisticated as we understand how to use these feelings for our own benefit.
What I mean by that is that anger has some interesting characteristics. It’s very focusing. It narrows our attention on the source of the threat. It generates physical and mental energy to help us deal quickly with the issue. Although these feelings begin in the deepest and oldest part of the brain, they quickly move “up” the brain to the rational thinking and planning areas. And most important, anger is a more advanced response to a threat than fear. Rather than short-circuiting us as fear tends to do, anger engages our resources.
People who are working through a history of trauma or abuse, or who have been out of touch with their capacity for anger for a long time, tend to have a lot of backed up anger. This may feel like explosive resentment, but it’s actually a lot of old system alerts that have never been addressed so that they turn off. (This can also be experienced as free-floating anxiety). So it may feel a little scary when that capacity first engages again. It’s normal to feel like everything is setting us off, because there are all kinds of PSTD-style reminders of unaddressed issues.
The cure is to work through the anger to find its original sources (“what am I really angry about here?”), and target the anger on its true causes. This works even if the situation is long in the past. I’m an incest survivor. By the time I really started to work on these issues, my father was a feeble, senile old man. It would have been pointless to vent my rage on him in real life. But I did it in memory, demanding justice for myself and getting honest with how I really felt about what happened and how wrong it was. I did a lot of raging through letters written to people who were long gone. And in doing so, took myself back. I had no choice but to live, feel and act like a victim then. But now I can judge it as someone who really cares about me, and refuse to understand and condone what was reprehensible behavior.
It’s crucial to do this work in order to get better. Later when we have fully stood up for ourselves, judged everything that needs judging in order to respect our own experiences, we may become able to also maintain some empathy or understanding. For example, I know that my father was a product of his upbringing, as was my mother who didn’t protect me. It’s very advanced work to be able to hold onto outrage on one side and empathy on the other. And we can’t rush getting there. First we need to get clear and have honest, normal feelings about what was done to us. This is taking care of ourselves. Then, if we have the energy and willingness, we can be compassionate. But not before. Otherwise we’re continuing to make our wellbeing less important than that of our perpetrators.
Just one more thought about this. People who are working on codependency issues have to learn to take care of themselves first, and limit their commits to other people to the “excess” resources they have left after they’ve met their own needs. My perspective is that the underlying cause of codependency is this inability to access our own anger, because we have been trained that it is not safe to defend our own entitlements (To love, respect, acknowledgment, appreciation, etc.) That is why the pivotal part of the healing journey is the angry phase.
Anger changes our orientation. Up to that point, it’s all about things outside of us. What happened to us. How other people behave. What how we have to manage those people or circumstances in order to keep ourselves loved or safe. Anger gets us back in our own skins. It makes it about us, how we feel, what we think, how we were affected, and what we’re going to do in more direct way to take care of ourselves. After anger, we start reevaluating everything in terms of whether it is good for us, and we start rebuildng ourselves and our lives in more positive ways.
From everything you say, jillsmith, you sound to me that you’re doing great work and moving right now the path. You mentioned in one of your posts that you didn’t know if you would ever get over your past. To me, that’s a statement that indicates that you’re moving into another stage, the one where we face our losses, admit that we are damaged and we can’t change that, grieve our losses, and finally get to the good part of figuring out what we have left to work with. It’s always pretty amazing when we give up focusing on what’s lost and turn our attention to what we have. And who we are, despite all that stuff in our past.
You’re doing good work and you’re moving in the right direction. When my therapist said that to me, I was always relieved to hear it. I pass it on to you.
Affectionately –
Kathy
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 6:32pm
kim frederick says:
Skylar, Oxy, Kathleen, I want to thank you all for not rushing in to BLAME me for the chaos that insued, last night.
I felt really BAD about it…And had to decide if I wanted to come to the sight today or not, knowing there would still be talk of it.
I sincerly apologized to Jill. On several occasions, and I’m still sorry my comments hurt her. I learned something about giving advise……………
However, at some point it’s possible that I might feel hurt and defensive, too. I might feel angry. I might feel gas-lighted and attacked.
I don’t like being talked about in the third person, behind my back. I don’t like feeling criticized. Does anyone?
Last night, when I realized I’d hit a nerve (unintentionally) and did my very best to just express that I undersood that I’d hurt her and I took responsibility for it. I didn’t get defensive and lash out, even though I was called mean, mean, mean.
Today, I’ve been accused of turning LF into a what was it “hateful and arrogant space.”
I have seen people attack others on this sight, but I don’t consider myself one of them.
Thank-you for letting me vent, and to let you’all know I have feelings, too. Thanks again to those of you that undersood.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 9:02pm
persephone7 says:
Kim: I feel your pain…
All I can say is that it seems we’ve all come to this site as some kind of sanctuary in a way. Having read through some of this thread, it seems everyone can try to remember that. And as well as we think we get to ‘know’ one another by our posts, we should also remember – as I think Oxy or Kathleen mentioned, that everyone is at a different stage of their healing – and vulnerability. But most of all, as much as someone might share their background and story – and as much as we share what seems to be the common experience of being with these people who have totally confused and hurt us – we are our own best judges and therapists deep down. The hardest part for me has always been trusting that voice within. It’s good to allow for some time without posting to really be introspective, not necessarily isolate ourselves – but I know sometimes I can feel a bit crazy when I read or have gotten too much advice and input from others – sometimes it’s hard to tell, but letting people into our most personal experiences can muddy, not clear the waters. Don’t misunderstand me – I’m not arguing or saying I’m not appreciative or support the idea of sharing with others – only that there seems to be a problem when we get too enmeshed with each other – this latest situation and one last week shows everyone trying to make amends, be understood, be ‘nice’ (which isn’t necessarily BAD) -it’s just that we’re all trying to preserve that healthy sense of being kind and nice individuals, and we’re all imperfect at times at that – it’s a part of life, isn’t it – just striking that balance of knowing ourselves and still reaching out in healthy ways to others.
Lately, it seems like I keep hearing the old song ‘Girls Just want to have Fun’ – and I’ve thought, Damn, that’s really what we all want at this point – we want all the heavy good stuff, too(like REAL love) and we don’t want to argue or fuss or criticize or be criticized what seems unfairly – but basically… we girls (and guys) just want at this point to ‘have some pure, unadulterated, non-obsessive FUN!!! (EB, you can add some more !!!!’s,please!)
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:07am
persephone7 says:
Wanted to clarify – when I said ’sometimes I can feel a bit crazy when I read or have gotten too much advice and input from others’ I was referring to books I’ve read,
and certain people I’ve confided in here and there – AS WELL AS LF reading and sharing. It’s that whole gamut of input and I’m just speaking for myself – at times I know
I have to kind of put myself on input ‘pause’ so my own thoughts, good, bad or indifferent can filter in. So I can really have a chance to absorb the experience and feelings that are going on RIGHT NOW in my life, however messy it feels, however still unresolved – it’s MY experience and no one else can really KNOW it but me, no one else – however instructive it is to know someone else has gone down a similar path – it is still just that, similar. It’s an obvious statement, but I feel we need to honor our own experience as being unique to us – and know it is that way for others and we can never totally understand or judge it for someone else.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 2:00am
kim frederick says:
Persephone, Thanks sooo much for responding.
You hit it on the head when you talked about everyone trying to be “nice”.
That has been an issue for me most of my life. My identity has relied qite heavily on it, at times. I remeber being about 10 and my Dad pulled me aside, and said, “Kim, not everyone will always like you.” Try not to take everything so personally.”
I remember my best friend telling me, when I was,21? 22? ” You are the nicest one of all of us.”
Well, of course at the time it meant a lot to me……
But when I began recovering from the devistation of a marriage to a Narcissist, who also had OCD, was career military, was very opininated and out-spoken, whose pesonality so overwhelmed me, I felt invisible and wiped out.
I had been critisized, talked-over, interupted, de-valued, and ignored for a really long time, and I was hurt to my core. In therapy I learned about anger, and self-esteem, and assertiveness. I learned to shrug my shoulders and say “suit yourself”. I learned how not to apologize all the time. I remember telling my husband I was sorry for slamming his car door? His response, “You’re always sorry.”
I wrote these poems at that time in my life:
Marilyn checked her make-up, then stretched across the bed,
Fingers casually curled six inches above her head. Posed in such a way she looked more sweet than dead.
That’s what Mailynn did. Instead I just got angry.
————————————————————————
Annie did her best to be domestic, baked bread for entertainment, after stripping wax, the way the neighbors did.
Annie hid her boredom with her bottle, underneith the linens, in the closit down the hall. Annie had it all. Except she didn’t have Annie.
————————————————————————
In this photograph you are whisker stubbled, base-ball capped, and your mouth is open. Your orange T-shirt shouts to the fans in your circle. Your hands fly in wide arcs above
your head. You berate the butcher the baker, the candle-stick maker,
your opinions have beeen cast in stone. I make myself
small. Pull in my head, fade into my dress.
I hear an air-plane roar, lylocks scent the air, then beer from your explossive breath, orange colored breath in the wind.
You are as magnifiscent as the orange sun, setting.
————————————————————————
The other night when I hurt Jill’s feelings, I had been feeling very light-hearted and playfull when a different poster (not Jill)starting posting posts that seemed to me were self-doubting . and apologetic. I saw my old-hurt self in this and even said to her, “we are all so sensitive and insecure.” I was trying to tell her, “hey, its okay.”
Well, this went on back and forth a few more times.
At this point EB posted on another thread about not engaging with EC, and I realized that I had begun to get caught up in all that, again. Then Jill posted, and at that point I never
again went back to EC. I was focussed on talking to Jill, but think my mind was somehow still on the conversations, and the FEELINGS I had triggered by my conversation with the first poster.
So Jill, I think what I said to you the other night was something I was saying to my ( I want to say old-) self. The one who has self-esteem issues, who wants to be so good. Who wants to be known as the nice girl, but who is so very sad and hurt.
It’s been a long time since I was in group therapy, but it can be pretty confrontational, where others tell it like they see it, and I think I made the mistake of thinking of LF in terms of my own therapy years ago. I am so sorry.
And isn’t it funny I still have the same issues today.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 7:58am
kim frederick says:
Wow, writing down those old poems and thinking about the past, those old feeling has me crying like a baby.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 8:24am
persephone7 says:
Kim: I barely have time before work to write but your poems and thoughts so moved me. They are so thoughtfully and artistically put down – you are an artist yourself-
and I related very much in what you expressed about the unfortunate way you and others (and me in my ill-chosen sarcasm to Jill, not intending to hurt her personally as
well) ended up triggering each other. Like having your boss get you upset and then coming home and kicking (not literally) the poor cat who comes to happily greet you!
Gotta go, but thanks Kim for that post, makes my day and I think sometimes we created the sociopaths to deal with our own anger and ‘niceness’ issues, that’s why it’s
so painful and wrenching – in a way, before them and after – we have to be careful that we don’t chase our own tails – and continue to be our own internal sociopath – being
unreasonable and even cruel to ourselves, which can still spill out onto unsuspecting others.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:42am
kim frederick says:
Thank you Perseph, for taking the time to respond. Thank you also for the lovely compliments on my poetry…..It used to be my therapy.
It seemed that in that marriage I was not allowed to have any sense of myself, at all. He was so domineering that he had to tell me how to wash a dish, how to hang up clothes on a clothes line, what brands to by at the grocery store. It was as if I wasn’t competent to do anything. I used to call him Mr. Clean, and tell him he was a better woman than I was. I t wasn’t until much later that I realized how terrified he must be… and exhausted. He must have thought that at any minute the world would fall apart if he wasn’t constantly monitoring it to make sure it was functioning properly. Poor Guy. LOL.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:50am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Kim, I understand how you feel. I’ve been there myself. (And I love your poetry too. Do you publish? I’d love to read more.)
Human relations get very interesting, in my mind, when I start playing around the idea of letting people be themselves. I mean, I want to be able to be myself and, at least, not be criticized all the time, preferably be understood. I know I spout off sometimes, and have the occasional snit, and I’m not always right. I’d like to be allowed to be imperfect without getting hammered for it. And if I want that, I figure I have to work on giving it to other people too.
And it is work. Because I have the character that I do — which is inclined to sound like I know what I’m talking about and, hell, I give advice for a living — I set myself up for getting whacked a lot. And I’ve made a life study of how to gracefully communicate difficult ideas that may trigger people. I teach people how to do that. But sometimes I don’t follow my own lessons. And I upset people. Which can make me feel terrible, and I have to remind myself that the human mind can be resistant to new ideas and I need to give them time to think about what I’ve said without immediately trying to make things all better.
But as you and persephone have noted, our experiences with the sociopaths really create questions about this idea of being nice. Especially if it gets in the way of talking about what is real and true for us.
In my recovery, I started experimenting with being very real and honest about exactly what was on my mind. I’ve written poetry all my life, very clever and well-mannered poetry. But in this period I wrote poetry that actually scared me. It was so naked, just the inside of my mind translated to paper. It took all the courage I had to read it in public. But I’m working on putting into book form now, because of the response I’ve gotten to it.
In my personal relationships, all this honesty created some bumps. People’s feelings were hurt. Other people judged me as an angry person. I sometimes pushed away people, and then had to go back and say that I’d changed my mind. I let people see the truth of my emotional states, and my most critical thoughts. And not everyone appreciated it. Especially people who felt very constricted to “behave properly” told me that I was rude or arrogant. Some people seemed to think I was trying to gain power over them, because I wasn’t acquiescent or submissive anymore.
But that was a very small part of what honesty did for me. To a much greater degree, it introduced humor into my conversations. It caused other people to share their real feelings with me, and their experiences. My conversations got a lot more interesting. I learned more, and felt more connected with other people. And a completely unexpected result — because I really expected problems — was that it seemed to make people respect me, to treat me better.
But I guess the most interesting thing it did was enable me to have arguments. I’m not sure if this happened just because of becoming honest, or if it was about other progress I made in getting better. But I became capable of having disagreements with other people without getting terrified or without feeling like I had to win or die. I got comfortable with the idea that they had their viewpoints and feelings, just like I did. And since we were individuals, it was kind of inevitable that we weren’t going to see things the same way. Or even want the same thing. And it was okay to disagree about it, maybe even a bonding thing under the right circumstances.
As I write this, it just sounds like common sense. But I can’t tell you how hard this was for me to start, how much courage it took. Part of me just wanted to stop being nice, and was desperately to just talk freely. But the part of me that was so careful not to hurt anyone’s feelings or make waves was driven by fear. Fear of being not liked, fear of being ostracized. I think it came out of my childhood with a violent rageaholic father, and feeling so responsible for protecting the rest of my family by not upsetting him. I had always told myself that being so concerned about other people’s feelings was a virtue, and I was kind of proud of it. But when I tried to make it “optional,” I discovered how much fear was behind it.
I should add that after a rocky start, I got a little better a being honest without being so aggressive as I was at at first. After all, I had all these skills at being nice I could apply to the problem. But I never, ever wanted to go back to the way I was before, because I came to think it was unpleasantly manipulative, all this trying to make people respond in a certain way. I became conscious of other people who were like that, always looking to create a certain effect or always feeling like it was their job to make other people feel better, and it just seemed disrespectful somehow, maybe controlling. Other people are entitled to their feelings too. It made more sense to me to just acknowledge their feelings, to understand them if I could. And I found that I could do more for them, and vice versa, by just being genuine.
I think that the last thing I want to say about this is the idea of how we come to each other to change our brain chemistry, when we feel sad or some other negative emotion. I wrote about it in a previous post, and I often come to LoveFraud, as I think we all do, for this reason. I’m not looking for someone to say something nice to me or even acknowledge my existence, though those things are pleasant when they happen. It’s more that I find something valuable in the different perspectives, and I feel encouraged by watching people on different places on the path. It also helps me to write. Or to have conversations about what’s really going on with me. Part of it is just getting my thoughts out of my head, where I can see them better. Part of it is the mutual affirmation that comes from sharing personal information.
I think that the quality of that sharing — the honesty — makes this a lot different than people in social situations who are just doing “nice” chit chat. It’s thought-provoking. I find my ideas challenged. I find opportunities to practice being the new person I am now, and find out what works and what doesn’t in terms of communication.
For these reasons, I feel so lucky to have a place like LoveFraud where I feel free to be myself. It’s a kind of “home,” as home should be. Taking the occasional whack is part of that, because other people have their own feelings and issues. But I find it important training in honesty and in caring about other people, without being enslaved by the feeling that I’m responsible for their feelings. I’m not. And you’re not. We’re all responsible for our own development as human beings. I know that if someone gets upset with me, that is primarily about them. I also know that if I’m totally misunderstood, it’s an opportunity for me to take a look at how I’m communicating and see if I can do it more effectively. But the real truth is that I can’t control how other people respond, and trying to do that is crazy-making for me and for them.
I’d rather love them for who they are and where they are, whatever it is. Just as I love myself. It’s easier that way, and it doesn’t preclude me deciding that something is too uncomfortable for me to participate in. The ultimate measure of everything is how I feel about it. That keeps me honest, and actually enables me to take care of myself in virtually every way.
I hope this makes sense. Apologies, as usual, for the long post.
Kathy
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:57am
kim frederick says:
Thank you, Kathy.
It feel sad, though, and realize I still invest so much in wanting to be liked. I feel sad because I feel like there is something fundamentally WRONG with me. Like I’m not capable of relationships, and I should just give up. It’s too hard, it’s too painful. It’s embarassing, humiliating. Whatever.
A part of me just wants to slip away and fade into my dress.
I was always the lost child.
I’m afraid of abandonment, and emotioal abandonment is the worst. Feeling punished because I marched to my own drummer (God forbid) has always been my experience….So it’s terrifying to do so, and often still results in rejection by people who have an over-whelming need, for what-ever reason, to control. It’s still very painfull and confusing.
But what good is love if its not ME that’s loved, but the very good, well mannered child that always behaves just as she’s told, never expresses an opinion that goes cross-grain. never tells the truth, and never usurps the cast in stone authority of others.
I hate the feeling of shame. Don’t we all? Shaming someone is a powerful tool, isn’t it.
My mom always said, “shame on you”, when she thought I’d
mis-behaved! I guess it must have worked cause I still have shame issues.
Anyway, Kathleen, thank-you for being here and talking with me. It means so much.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 12:15pm
OxDrover says:
We all, I think, want people to like and respect us.
Let’s get to the bottom though, what does “being nice” mean?
Can you disagree with someone and still be “nice”?
Where does “being nice stop” and standing up for yourself start?
Can you set boundaries and still be nice?
Can you give advice and not be angry if it is rejected?
Can you be given advice and not be angry if you don’t like it?
Can you accept criticism of your ideas and not become angry?
These are all questions I think we should ask ourselves.
My own opinion is that we are ‘cranky” when we are out of sync, and we tend to be more critical, easily insulted, angered, etc. when we are “out of sorts” or RAW and so on and things that are in retrospect really minor irritate the crap out of us, hurt us, insult us, etc.
Just as a dog that has been frequently kicked for reasons it doesn’t understand will shy or jump away if someone raises a foot to it. Or other dogs will growl or bite in the same situation (depending on lots of different tings).
I think when we feel strong emotions (of any kind) as a reaction to something someone (anywhere) says or does, we should count to ten (as the old saying goes) and see if we are OVER reacting to something that may be “nothing”—i.e. are we carrying a chip on our shoulder? Are we over sensitive? Are we triggered emotionally?
I think if we will practice this more (and it is something I work on every day) we will all do better in our recovery.
The trauma that suvivors of Ps have been trough leaves us all somewhat edgey, hypervigilent, paranoid, etc. to one degree or another. It takes time to get over these responses, but I think it is a good thing for us to work on in our recovery.
Reaching out to each other here is “risky” but at the same time, there are some wonderful rewards here as well. god bless. (((Hugs))))
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:04pm
kim frederick says:
Thanks, Oxy. Let me just say, I’m working on it.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:10pm
libelle says:
Dear Kim, I can so relate to your statement, to all of it. The feeling of not being loved, the feeling of abandonment, also mom saying “shame on you!”, worse than the lost child, the invisible not noticed child. I mentioned in an earlier post that I did not “get it” in the film “The sixth sense” where all are dead and nobody is talking to the main characters, because that is my reality I now am noticing to my growing horror (and when I say something and somebody reacts at all then it is a swift reprimand).
The X was also very good at putting me down at the groceries, by the way! Not knowing where they put sugar was a HUGE disaster!!! And YES he showed me how to hang the clothes and he forbade me to dry the glasses of his Ex-GF because he was afraid I was ruining them. He was a PhD and I am a simple MD, so he had all the right to question my abilities in whatever field you may think of. LOL. It is always amazing me how cooky-cutter they are, and they seem to have read all the same book!
LF is wonderful for me as I can sit in front of my computer, read, reflect and let slowly go of these feelings and I can work on them, and my “colleagues” have much less influence on my feelings as I can not make them to like me or even to notice me. Yesterday I had a long telephon conversation with a dear friend who really matters to me, and soon I will go to a friend’s vernissage, and the heck with people who try to control MY feelings, try to make me so inferior.
I try to overcome or better to come to terms with this feeling or even better still to endure the tension of loneliness by trying to like myself and be a good friend to myself.
Dear Kathy, I am still not at the point of being “really honest” about my feelings, I am more in the state of exercising my “inner psychopath” to protect my “inner child”, and I experience the power of silence on my side.
And sometimes I feel like being the one poor child in the fairy tale who has to fight the dragon and free all the poor souls that have tried for ages to get the crown and who have failed and are kept in the dungeon by the evil ghost. To free myself from an evil curse that has been passed over for generations.
Oh well, let’s have fun at the vernissage! Have you all a very nice weekend!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:11pm
heavenbound says:
Kim,
I am sooo sorry for the other night, while I understood some of the feelings and why the other night….I never meant to apply blame to you ,,, I never meant to hurt you. I hope you can forgive me for not being more considerate of your feelings.
I’m not very good at helping when things go bad but I want to help when it does.
It hurts me that you got hurt as well…and I can honestly say that I understand why and how your feelings got hurt also.
I know I apologize alot but I am sorry for hurting you.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:51pm
ErinBrock says:
Kim, Jill, Chic, Heaven, Gem…..
It’s pretty harsh to watch the unfolding of the effects of a troll.
I see a lot of feelings were hurt and things got lost in the chaos of one persons selfish ‘fun’ with anohter…
I made my feelings known that night, and I stand by them.
I was not being mean, I am fed up with the continuation….my feelings were based on my observations of continued behaviors and self proclaimed actions of one person. NOT just from that night.
Kim, I’m real proud of how you backed away and changed pace….growth my dear! You were aware…..and that is great!
I wanted to comment that night….obviously NOT appropriate!
Kudos….
Jill: You were hit by shrapnal of troll and friend, and emotions that ensued with having a troll on board. this is a prime example of WHY members should not participate with someone not here to heal…..again, I am sorry for the buzzkill you experienced with the timing….You have offered so much, grown so much. I wish you nothing but peace! (Jill I am not saying, you were a participant, in any way….you were an inocent bystander that got him from fallout emotions).
Heaven: Crossfire….that’s all I can say to you….
Again….another example of what comes out of troll exchanges. I see you did nothing wrong but try to comfort!
Chic:
Crossfire……youve been here before! Sucks huh! I got your intention and I am glad you popped in to give Jill support and a high five…..When the trolls hijack the emotions…..look out below…..
Gem: Your a firecracker…..I think you nailed it ….called a spade a spade!
————
So all that said……I have something else…..
It’s my opininon – through observation……
That we have a MOLE in our midst.
AS I tell my kids……when I feel danger lurks…….
KEEP YOUR EYES WIDE OPEN!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 2:30pm
kim frederick says:
Thanks, Libelle. I hope you have a wonderfull week-end, and just be the princess having a good time, okay?
Heaven, you have nothing to apologize for. You didn’t do anything wrong……honest.
Thank-you, EB for noticing my victory! It feels good. Hope we all have a lovely week-end, all of us.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 2:57pm
skylar says:
It’s nice to see that everyone is feeling better.
Kim, however else you might feel about yourself, you should know that you come across as very genuine and real and comfortable with yourself – even the parts of yourself you don’t necessarily like. You seem like the kind of person that would be most valued as a friend. It also seems like you never misunderstand anything I say, but see right to the core of me. I like that.
Kathy, thanks for offering such loving words and support. Most everyone is doing their best to smooth ruffled feathers, as we all should.
I wish I could respond to everyone’s comments personally, but too much happened while I was gone and there’s never enough time.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 3:14pm
Stargazer says:
Looking in after the fact, it appears to me that a troll has been here stirring up a pot. I’m SO glad I missed it because I have a hard time ignoring them. Wow, they can be SO destructive.
Jill, if you’re still around, I want to congratulate you on your great news. This is phenomenal!
I could relate to all the comments about hypervigilance. I remember going through some very difficult places in my healing many years ago. I got angry at people a lot and I just couldn’t help it. No one ever validated my feelings, so it was very hard for me to get through this phase. That’s why I don’t mind if someone gets mad at me here. If I hurt anyone, I will be the first ot apologize. But if they are setting a limit or have gotten triggered and are trying to heal, I generally regard this as a good thing. I remember when I used to get angry at women’s groups, friends, boyfriends, and therapists, and everyone thought I was nuts. No one understood what I was doing. It really made it harder, and I felt like I was crazy. I think anger is a very important part of the process.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:02pm
Stargazer says:
Kim,
It appears as though no one blamed you for the events of the other night. So is it okay if I go ahead and blame you for the really sucky weather we’re having right now? I just feel I should blame SOMEone for SOMEthing. LOL I also need someone to blame for the fact that on the heels of having my mortgage company hand me several months of free mortgage, my car suddenly needs a lot of work. Who wants to take the blame for this? They say money talks. Mine’s always saying “good-bye”. lol Granted, I’m grateful to have an emergency fund. But I wasn’t expecting an actually emergency for at least a year or two!
Okay, I’m babbling. It’s just my way of checking in, even though I have had no sociopaths on my mind.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:08pm
ErinBrock says:
Star:
If i’m not mistaken, Matt takes all of the financial blames….he got good at that…..
My shoulders are broad enought to handle the car break down…..although Amber just got experince there…….
And Oxy…..well, she is the weather Karma cranky one…..she’s got the weather handled…..blame her.
Kim’s innocent here……leave her out of it!
And, well…..it might just be up to you to teach your money another language! I suggest, French with the ‘con’ dialect….i’t’s mine, it’s mine?
Good to see you around!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:16pm
kim frederick says:
Thank-you, Skylar.
Star, I agree. Anger happens. And it’s a good thing.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:21pm
Stargazer says:
LOL EB! Do you think Oxy could flatten these snow clouds with her skillet? Come to think of it, I’ll bet a used skillet could be fashioned into a very functional muffler….
Okay, Oxy is blamed for the weather, EB and Matt will take the blame for financial woes….Kim, I still need to blame you for something….can’t really think of anything…..LOL I’m just messing with you guys.
Actually, the muffler thing is Murphy’s fault. His law clearly states that “whenever you set out to do something, something else must be done first.” I set out to get my car registration in. But first I had to get an emissions test. But the car wouldn’t test for some unknown reason. The reason was that my muffler is about to fall off. So I have to get that before I can get it emissions tested. But before I could do that, I had to get two new rear tires….Murphy is really the culprit here. (I hope we don’t have anyone on this site named Murphy).
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:34pm
skylar says:
I’ve been out doing research and have found out the my xP is a very ACTIVE pedophile. It appears this is what he LIVES FOR. All his cons, all the money grubbing, all the drug dealing are to feed his favorite passion. Children.
I have no proof, only word of mouth, but I’ve always suspected it because of the things he has said in the past.
When I was 20 years old he basically lost interest in me because of my AGE. He hates older women. I’m seeing more and more evidence that his problem, is a need to take away the innocence of a child because that’s what he feels was done to him. Concurrently, he is also able to relive his fantasy of still being a child.
This is so sickening to finally admit and know it, that my brain has reverted back to the confused state it was in when I first realized he was a sociopath and never loved me. When I was 17 and going to work each day, he was staying home and screwing 12 year olds.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:36pm
skylar says:
Star,
I’ve heard the universe only gives you as much as you can actually handle. I guess you have to stop being so CAPABLE!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 4:39pm
ErinBrock says:
Whachit Star……….you already brought in Murphy, you don’t want Karma to get involved here!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 5:01pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Kim, you wrote that you feel sad and you feel like there is something fundamentally wrong with you.
I don’t know if you’ve read any of my posts about fugue states, but this sounds to me like a fugue state. An emotional state that recurs in certain circumstances that remind you of the initial time it happened.
What you wrote sounds like some really good work at getting to the bottom of it. When I was writing about fugue states, I defined them two ways. One is that is a neurological route — kind of like the old “Chutes and Ladders” game — that quickly shifts you from the current experience to the historical state. The other was that fugue states have their own brain chemical cocktail associated with them.
I’m getting pretty technical here, and I should probably step back and say that we all have them. And the particular one you’re describing is very close to one that I experienced most of my life. Feeling ashamed, inadequate, outside, not knowing how, and at base, feeling broken in a way I couldn’t exactly define or fix. I often experienced it as a panic attack after conversations or business meetings. (I remember sitting in my car with my forehead on the steering wheel waiting for the fe racing heartbeat and feelings that I should be embarrassed about something to recede.) I also experienced them as total meltdowns in my marriages, where I became panicky and desperate to be told I was okay or forgiven. (Not because I’d done something so awful, but because my sense of confidence or belonging had vaporized.)
You wrote that shaming is a powerful tool. I agree, but particularly in the hands of a parent who is the source of a child’s emotional and physical security. What shame says is “you are not acceptable to me.” It’s a old-fashioned way of teaching ethics to children before they are old enough to understand the principles involved, a response to when they lie or steal or fail to perform in some other way, that is the emotional equivalent of corporal punishment. But worse really, because corporal punishment is usually a repercussion that is clearly linked to a specific infraction. Shame, unless managed very carefully, can become a pronouncement on the character. It’s more vague and also more dangerous in the child’s perception, because it seems like evidence of a fundamental lack in the child. Something wrong with you.
Shame is a social feeling. It’s really important to remember that when we’re looking at our own feelings of shame. It has to do with not meeting community standards (or what passes for community when we get our first taste of it). If we do not meet community standards, we risk losing the security and benefits that come with being accepted.
That’s why shame is so powerful in terms of being internalized into behavioral rules. And why most modern parents use less heavy-handed techniques like time-out to communicate the same lessons, but in a way that allows the child to get the punishment over with and come back into the fold. In addition, modern parents (ones that have studied childhood development) also make an effort to provide alternative “okay” behavioral ideas to children who are too young to understand why they did that was not okay.
I think that a lot of our long-term damage, which I talk about as coping mechanisms that worked when we were children but not adults, boiled down into us taking a lesson from being shamed that seems to be what our parents want, but they’re based on expediency, not principle.
I talk about my iconic re-parenting experience on something that happened when I was three or four. (I say “iconic” because I’m not exactly sure of the time or details, but I’m very certain of the emotional content.) My father’s anger was terrifying. It was also unpredictable and unreasonable. When I first became aware of this, I went to my m other to complain about how my father treated me for no reason. My mother’s response was that it was my job not to make him. angry. I learned two things from that. One was that my mother was not going to protect me and I was on my own. The other was that I was going to have to be very clever to never make him angry.
Keeping my father from getting angry at me, my mother and the other kids became a big part of my life. I became the sacrificial child who took other kids’ beatings because I tried to defend them. I became my father’s “favorite” because I was so eager to please and acquiescent, and lived with the jealousy of my mother and siblings. My anxiety and resentment played out in relationships with my friends. Today I understand why so many of my teachers singled me out for personal encouragement, despite my mediocre performance at school.
For me, undoing this involved going back in memory to that event. When I tracked that fugue state back to its first occurrence in my memory, I was able to be with my small self, as something like a ghost from the future, and judge what was going on from a more adult perspective. I could tell my child-self that she was correct in thinking that my parent were supposed to protect her. And that she was a very smart little girl to survive so well, but now it was time to put that burden down. I would protect her, and she could get back to growing up. (The big tasks of this age should be “good guys and bad guys” play and learning the first social rules based on the dawning understanding that other people had different and separate feelings from ours.)
Talking about re-parenting is hard. It’s a very personal experience that happens almost in an instant, but it changes a fundamental belief about how the world works. It requires tracking an emotional state down to its source, interpreting and judging it anew, and coming away with a different lesson than we learned the first time.
This was not the only major trauma I had to revisit, but there were only a few. These exercises really worked. Each one released some part of me that had been trapped behind the defensive learning that I had survived on, but that had eventually proven to be so dysfunctional in adult life. The released parts were still as young as they were when they got blocked, so I had to live through them growing up. And for me, this explains the progression of the angry phase through its rough beginnings of blaming and outrage through more control and effectiveness as our boundaries and understanding of our needs become better formed.
In conclusion, I’m totally agreeing with your idea that this comes from your background. Maybe you can do something with that insight to untangle that old wiring that doesn’t serve you today. I find that I am still doing it as I discover new bits of vulnerability or dysfunction in myself, but getting those few big ones really changed my life.
Love –
Kathy
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 5:12pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Apologies again for the very long post. I think I just need to write the book.
I missed Evil Clown yesterday. Noticed the post in the morning, but didn’t have time to look at it. It was gone by the time I checked in last yesterday. Just the aftermath was left.
I wish — and this is just me — that we could find a way just talk about ourselves, how things are for us, and then related to each other in that way. Oh it’s like that for you? I can certainly understand because here’s how it is for me.
It’s these generalizations about the group, and observations and analysis of each other that get us into trouble, I think.
I know I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone else, but I really try not to do it. Because I’m always concerned it will sound disrespectful, and because I can’t honestly claim any truth but my own. And I think it’s really the only thing of value I have to offer.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 5:24pm
skylar says:
Kathy,
I understand and agree with everything you said, but what if the little child inside me just doesn’t want to listen?
I’ve come to realize that I’m experiencing these feelings viscerally. The feeling of inadequacy, IS like a panic attack, along with gastro-intestinal disturbances. It seems like no matter how I talk to my little child, it doesn’t listen to me. It wants validation from OUTSIDE, from other people, to feel safe.
I realize that this is a narcissistic attitude. It’s the reason why P’s need to manipulate others, to them that’s validation from outside. But I’ve not been able to get past all the panicky physical sensations when they show up, especially in response to being invalidated or rejected. Sometimes I think that’s why I’ve isolated myself in my life, the less people I know, the fewer people who will be able to hurt my feelings. So I gave all that power of validation to the P. As long as I had him, I felt good, no one else’s opinion could hurt me. Then he turned into mr. hyde and I had no one.
I’m experiencing the same thing being here on LF. I felt so good and validated for a long while, but suddenly, someone decided that they didn’t like what I was expressing about myself, my choices, my way of interacting with others. It makes me feel like I made a mistake opening up and that I should throw the baby out with the bathwater and protect myself again. How does on develop that self-validation and thick skin required to let hurtful behavior bounce off? I feel it in the pit of my stomach and it’s so distracting. It makes me want to run out and find a P who will mirror me and validate me – they are so easy to find.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 5:32pm
skylar says:
Kathy, btw, I DID want to call you “mom” but I decided it would be best not to. Throughout my life, I’ve noticed that sometimes the close bonds between some people will make others feel left out because they are new or haven’t made friends within a group yet. So, I’m trying to refrain from making anyone feel that way in whatever situation I find myself. I want everyone, old and new, to feel equal, if at all possible. I’m not sure I’ve expressed what I mean very well, I hope so. Just know that I do feel like you are my cyber/spiritual mom, but I’m going to call you Kathy.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 5:42pm
Stargazer says:
Skylar, how in the world did you find out he is a pedophile? Are you going to turn him in? Do you know specific children he has hurt? This is a pretty horrible revelation.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 6:39pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Sky, I think I understand. Getting our child-self to trust us can be a major issue.
The simple answer, or so I hear from other people, is just to ask it, “What is it going to take for your to trust me?”
Which, I guess, is equivalent to asking ourselves what is it going to take for me to trust me?
I had something really interesting happen during my recovery. I’ve written about it before, but not lately. I was on a business trip in London, and got gluten’d at a restaurant dinner. (I had more trouble in England getting restaurant people to get the concept of a gluten-free diet than anywhere else I travelled.) Gluten really affects my brain chemicals fast, and I went to sleep feeling anxious and weepy.
As I was waking up the next morning, I was in a dream. I was deep underground. It was exactly like an underground cave I visited in Belize with a black river running through it. But in the dream I knew that river was bitterness. (Something I wasn’t allowed to feel, because I didn’t want my incest background to “ruin me.”) I stood looking at it, wondering if I dared to stick a toe in it, or if I should just run away and not look back.
Before I could decide, this long ribbon of black started to move and rise up like a being. It reminded me of a cloaked and hooded monk. I couldn’t see its face. And then I woke up in my hotel room with sunlight piercing the curtains to illuminate the yellow walls.
I felt queasy and hungover from the gluten, but I knew in that spectacular London morning that the bitterness I had been suppressing was the wisdom of my memories. I could almost feel that dark entity taking its place behind my left shoulder to whisper warnings and guidance based on what I had already lived through. And that I could depend on it to be the self-defensive factor in my life that I’d never had.
This was long before I really hit my angry phase. I was still trying to sort out whether or not I had reason to classify my ex as a bad person, so that I could stop feeling like I had continue to be protective or concerned about him. In my life, I’d never recognized anyone before as a bad person. I’d always understood everything, or tried to. So this was a big hurdle for me to overcome.
And maybe the dark guardian helped me get there, to make that decision that my ex didn’t deserve to be cared about. I do know that its presence, and the permission it gave me to feel my bitterness and anger, and to learn from my history, was the beginning of learning to trust myself, instead of seeking “strong” partners to protect me. Later when I really released my anger and started consciously building better boundaries and developing my self-defensive skills, I was answering the concerns of my child self with concrete steps to protect us both.
What I found I really wanted and needed was to become my own authority. To not just trust myself to take care of me, but to trust my own vision and to be able to accept the possibility that I would make mistakes on the way to getting things right. Imaging that I had to be perfect was a symptom of not experiencing what it was like to experience life in a normal human way — because in my family it was way too risky to have feelings, make mistakes or think about anything but keeping the monsters at bay.
This is how I talk to myself…
This is how I look at things. I may be wrong or missing something, but based on what I can see and what I feel, this is my best truth for right now. I know I’m evolving, so tomorrow’s truth may be a little smarter, a little more profound or comprehensive than today’s. But I’m working right now with the best I have, and I have to trust that it’s leading me to the next thing I need to know. I believe in my inner wisdom more than I believe in anything else, because I believe that it’s also part of the God spark in me.
I hope this makes sense.
And I know what you mean about the mom thing. I’ve had a lot of wonderful mentors in my life, some of whom are long-dead writers and teachers. If there is a blooming in you that you don’t quite own yet, I’m glad to be your avatar of growth for as long as I serve.
Namaste.
Kathy
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 6:50pm
JaneSmith says:
Kathleen,
Blimey! I love reading your posts, but like I said before my booty does tend to become numb after sitting for too long.
When’s the book coming out?…;P
Also, I am one of those cheerleader types who heaps genuine praise upon people who endear, touch, affect me.
I won’t stop doing it either. No way, No how. Can’t make me. It’s an inherent part of my nature, feeds my soul and it just feels too GOOD to witness lovely smiles/giggles/beaming faces created by my sincerity.
Hey, just the way I roll!!
Peace and Love and Joy to every single beautiful, wonderful, extraordinary human being on LF.
Haha…how’s that?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 7:29pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
JaneSmith, you make me feel like a puppy getting a tummy rub.
Oops, you can’t make me feel anything. I am responsible for my own feelings.
Well then, JaneSmith, Namaste. My inner tummy-rubbed puppy lolls contentedly at the feet of your inner cheerleader.
Now, I have to leave, and cook dinner for my pups and me.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 7:35pm
JaneSmith says:
LOL and awwww, Kathleen
You had to do it, didn’t ya? Mention puppies, kitties, butterflies, rainbows, bunny rabbits, unicorns and dragons and I go bonkers! (ok, the last 2 aren’t real. Or are they? hmm)
And you better believe it, lovely lady. I CAN cause you to feel a tad bit of joy and delight. I’m a force of nature, ya know. No one can escape me when I’m practically exploding with happiness and vitality.
Got’s ta share it! It’s a duty and a purpose!
What’s the point in being confident, serene and joyful if I can’t share and spread these sublime feelings with an unsuspecting public?…haha.
GOTCHA!!
xxooxxooxx…
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 7:59pm
kim frederick says:
thanks Kathleen. I think I always sought out strong partners, because I didn’t feel strong myself. I always sought out strong personalities……I was very attracted to men who were confident, who knew who they were, and above all, were independant. I was never attracted to someone who liked me Too much. That’s so sad, isn’t it? No wonder I got what I got!
Today, I don’t want anybody. That’s just where I am. I would still probably like the same type, and it’s pointless.
About the horse with the swirl that’s not quite right….Love it.
Reminds me of that crazy look in their eyes, but more.
They say that the seat of all intuition is the third eye, and it resides in that place, between our two eyes, but slightly above. Right where that swirl would be…..So, if a predator were sizing one up……looking into one’s soul, so to speak, for weakness, wouldn’t his swirl be off…..and couldn’t we, as intuitive beings, see it? It’s a metephore for listening to your gut. I’m gonna be paying attention to the swirl.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 8:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Star,
Murphy was an OPTIMIST! “anything that can go wrong, WILL go wrong at the WORST possible time.”
Ther are long lists of additions to Murphy’s law(s)—but I tell you they are all TRUE. I swear to you they are!
I tried BOINKING the clouds back when we had all those days of days of weeks of months of rain this summer (almost double the normal amount of rain for this area) but it didn’t work. The only thing that the skillet can keep in line is Henry, ,my two sons, and a few of the rest of LF folks, so I guess maybe it is my fault about the weather, I just don’t know how to use the skillet correctly. LOL
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 8:42pm
kim frederick says:
Oxy, I beg your pardon? You are the skillet eficionado around here. Do I hear self-doubt creeping in? Oh no. I will not have it. Your boink is the most effective boink I know of.
As far as the weather goes, well, it can be tempermental, and your best to just work on acceptance. That is one thing I learned from my childhood in Seattle, no amount of boinking was gonna stop the rain. (((hugs)))
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 8:53pm
Stargazer says:
Oxy, LOL!! You may just need a new, improved skillet. Nowadays, skillets can that text, take pictures, do your dishes, and boink clouds! It’s snowing like crazy right now. I want to go out and have fun. I’m dying to go dancing. But I don’t want to drive in this mess.
Is it normal to find a therapist I really like and then a week later just lose interest and feel like I’m going through the motions talking to her? I’ve become soooo self sufficient….I don’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I was sitting in her office the other day, and all I could think of was that I’d rather be dancing. And yet the week before, I felt like I really needed to be there. I just didn’t feel like talking this week. Is this normal? Or is it something else? I’m starting to wonder if I’m just too far along down the solitary path for any kind of long-term therapy.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:05pm
Stargazer says:
Kim, did you even try boinking the clouds? You say it doesn’t work, but I wonder if anyone has even tried. LOL!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:06pm
kim frederick says:
Star, I never boinked a cloud, but then again, I never had a magic skillet, either. I did however, jump up and down in the puddles on the streets, hoping that the streaks of red and green neon would somehow dye my. jeans. Never happened. My tennis shoes got wet, and up to my knees in cold and wet Seattle rain I’d walk myself home as if defeated. And then again I’d descend into the streets, to try to harness the rain. I’d find myself soaked, cold and alone, the water beading up and running off my face in rivulets, all the time cursing, with my fist in the air, “damn you, I’d say. Damn the rain…….
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:28pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Kim, when you said “It’s so sad, isn’t it?” it sounds to me like you are mad at yourself. Is this true?
If so, how else do you think you could have come out of your particular childhood? Was there some failure of character in the child you were? Was there something she neglected to do?
I spent most of my life with a vague belief that I should have done something to change my family and to change my circumstances in that family. I should have found some way to make my father stop behaving the way he did. Or to save my siblings. Or to convince my mother to leave him, so that even if we grew up in poverty, we wouldn’t grow up in fear.
This was embedded in me, just like the belief that I was responsible for not making him mad. But in my recovery process, I started taking long hard looks at these vague, self-hating beliefs.
Every step I took in my life looked like the right step at the time. Even the most awful mistakes were created by the best efforts of this very good brain of mine to figure out what was the best thing to do. And even when I fell madly in love, I thought that those powerful feelings were what I was supposed to be listening to. (And long after the fact, I realize they actually were. Because the most difficult and challenging relationships were also the ones that taught me the most important lessons for the future.)
There are a lot of things I’d do differently today, if the same situations arose. And I have regrets about some of the pain I caused other people. But I can’t regrets my decisions. They were the best I could do at the time, and that child, girl and woman became the person I am today.
You mentioned the third eye. It is also the sixth chakra, and my understanding of it is something like yours, but a little different. This is how I understand the chakras, and I’m mentioning it because it helps, I think, to understand our developmental path. They go from bottom to top:
1. Security — the grounded red chakra that is related to our brain stem function and pure survival issues. Food, shelter, sleep, physical safety. Associated feelings are Fear and safety/comfort.
2. Sensation — the orange chakra that is related to our limbic emotional system, what feels good and bad, our emotional learnings and addictions. Associated feelings are Discontent/boredom and happiness/delight.
3. Power — the yellow chakra that is related to our left cerebral cortex, reason, influence, categorizaiton, will. Particularly awareness of our individual ability to affect the world. Associated feelings are anger/frustration and satisfaction/triumph.
4. Love — the turquoise heart chakra related our right cerebral cortex and our ability to open ourselves up to connection, compassion and sense of belonging in the great network of life. The heart chakra is the pivotal chakra where we begin to perceive ourselves as more than individuals. Associated feelings are open-heartedness and resistance.
5. Expression — the blue throat chakra related to our forebrain functions of awareness of past and future time, the uniqueness of our experience, the great logic that pervades everything and, of course, our ability to feel all this and choose. Because while language in all its forms is the raw material of expression, what expression is really is choice and creation. Associated feelings are a sense of mobility/freedom and burden.
6 Cornucopia — the indigo third-eye chakra which intuitively grasps the the great web of destiny as a form of divine interest, in which we participate as embodiments of God’s attention. At this level we see beyond the personal, and in fact our egos fade as we sense our role in something that is designed perfectly and in which we can trust. Our “insight” becomes fine-tuned. The associated feelings are trust and distrust.
7. Cosmic Consciousness — the blue-tinged white crown chakra which is fully open to the great everything. It is where we are connected to the divine network and probably resides in scientific terms in the mitochondria, the racial memory of our DNA. I’m not sure there is language for the associated feelings for this chakra, but maybe it would be something like joyous awe with the counterpoint being the pull of karma, dragging us back into the material plane.
I mention these as keys to our progress, because we need to, more or less, develop our conscious awareness and use of each chakra level in our childhood development to move onto the next. If we have never known anything but physical hunger, it is very difficult to imagine progressing up through conscious knowledge and confidence in our own power.
Actually all the chakras are born into us, or develop in our first 20 years or so. They are all working right now in all of us. But our understanding of our experience is based on our consciousness of where we are. We can grow up through the chakra path at different rates in different aspects of our lives. Most of us known someone who was a gifted spiritual leader but who was emotionally retarded in other ways.
But that is also why we can meditate on the sixth chakra and find insight, even though at a conscious level we are still struggling with mastery of power and just getting our first whiffs of the consciousness of love. We are tapping what is already inside of us, but not consciously accessible unless we go looking for it. And if we haven’t truly made our way there yet, we’re going to interpret its aspect in terms of where our consciousness are now. If we are discontented or bored, and looking for a new lover to lift us out of it, the third eye may give us a flash of insight of where to look or who to choose, but it can’t change the experience we must go through to obtain the lessons to move up the ladder.
I’m not talking about this to recruit anyone to my way of thinking. This is not my religion, but one of the metaphors that supports my belief system. The chakras are a model for self-understanding and they are related to ideas of chi or the meridien points of acupuncture. They illustrate the same developmental path that is outlined in the tarot and the runes. All this wisdom is similar, which suggests, if not a common source, at least some kind of racial understanding of the nature of human development and our place in the universe.
If you are interested, I started studying all this seriously after I had a metaphysical experience that lasted a few weeks while I was recuperating from my breakdown in my mid-twenties. It threw me right into the sixth chakra awareness, and if I told you what I saw in those weeks, you’d probably think I was crazy. It not uncommon for people to have these experiences associated with emotional breaks, because the hold of consensus reality (or the veil of Maya) can loosen or thin at times like this. There’s a very good book about the psychology of these experiences call “Spiritual Emergencies” by the Drs. Stanilov and Christina Grof, if anyone here is going through something like it. And for more information about the chakras, I highly recommend “The Handbook to Higher Consciousness” by Ken Keyes.
I’m afraid this may be a bit off topic, but hopefully it’s useful to someone.
Kahy
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:08pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Good night, all. I’m heading for the jar of peanut butter cookies and a glass of soy milk for dessert, and then off to bed. Sweet dreams.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:11pm
libelle says:
Dear Skylar and Kathy and Kim, thank you so much for your insights!
The shame was always a big issue for me as my whole family was so shameless, albeit always telling me to be ashamed of something (I know this is maybe not making any sense, and in fact it was like this).
Sky, I think the little child in yourself is very much expressing herself, through the tummy! I was very glad that I finally got a physical reaction last year when I was going through my first big fugue state. I was then realizing that it was not about the X but it was about my parents who were absolutely so self absorbed with each other and completely neglecting us that I could FEEL the pain of sitting at the cold stairs with a full bladder and an empty stomach and tired and not knowing when they return, at the age of 6 with two little siblings to care for.
When I felt this feeling in the stomach last year I knew that it is now really “work in progress”, not just “thinking about”, but “working through”, putting the soul into “deep clensing”, “digesting”, even what is unpalatable. I think when I have to “digest” something, it is incorporating the good things and let go of the rest, and I can look at it as “shit” or “manure”, depending where I put it to further fertilize other things or being a constant nuisance (shit and manure were by the way my first words I learned in English besides the bare necessities to be able to talk in a foreign language
).
I have had to learn to cherish my “gut feeling” a lot last year, and it has become my foremost counsel in any aspect of life, be it buying new clothing, getting a new job, even at present at work when I get this strange feeling in my stomach I pay close attention to it and I know I have been triggered and have to do some work or pay attention to something bad going on. I think that the gut is underrated and the neocortex is WAY overrated in that respect! I read somewhere that the gut contains as much synapses as the “real” brain!
The X will numb your stomach again, maybe, when you head back to him. It will impede you from listening to your gut.
You also mentioned: “Throughout my life, I’ve noticed that sometimes the close bonds between some people will make others feel left out because they are new or haven’t made friends within a group yet. So, I’m trying to refrain from making anyone feel that way in whatever situation I find myself. I want everyone, old and new, to feel equal, if at all possible. ”
In my working situation I am now facing that I am left out on purpose by some supposed to be close coworkers. I have learned the hard way that it is the responsibility of everybody to “make friends” or get into a group, everyone on her/his own pace. I am kind to newbies but do not engage in “group bonding” anymore. The ones who desire to know me will approach me anyway and the others are followers of the bullies and that is OK with me too.
Unfortunately the evil ones have brought some of the newbies not to talk to me either. But I cannot force them to talk to me either. The good thing is I discovered the blessings of silence. It is not my obligation to entertain and keep everybody happy, or fill in some emptiness. Very relieving! I used to be a very good entertainer keeping everybody laughing with humorous stories about my dysfunctional family and my own mishaps. Until I discovered that they used it to ridicule me.
Whenever I feel my stomach then I know that there is more assertive training on my part necessary, and that I must and will not be dependable on the rare random niceness of evil bigot people.
Last year I also got triggered by some people here on LF, and I felt even insulted. After a while I decided to not read their entries any more, as also the entries here a an offer to communicate I can accept or not, and as nobody is watching me on my computer it is not even embarrassing the writer.
But I must say you all at LF are blessings, the mix of old and new, different stages of healing, and especially the weekends give me lots and lots of food for thought to make personal progress. Blessings to you all in foggy cold but hopefully snugly november ((((((Hugs)))))
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 4:27am
skylar says:
Kathleen, whew!
so much wisdom in your post, I’ll have to print that one out too. Thanks for bringing me back to the concept of AUTHORITY. I think it’s a key concept to get a handle on with so much “freudian” connotation, that you could write a whole book just on that. Authority is one of the things that N’s envy and become parasitical on. If you don’t get your book out soon, I’ll have enough material to publish my own, titled: The Teachings of Kathleen, how I learned to grow up. I agree that the Chakras can help, so I got some Chakra music. Now I just need time to listen to it.
Libelle,
sometimes I think I’m the only one with the feelings you describe. The feeling that evil people can “smell” that I’m vulnerable and quickly make me the target. Laughter can help, putting your ego aside can also help. But you are right, combining the two, will backfire. Evil people are predictable, you just have to be able to discern what their favorite target is and diffuse it the best you can.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 1:11pm
skylar says:
JaneSmith,
No! please don’t stop being yourself, that’s not what I meant at all! See? How easy it is to say the wrong thing because everyone interprets things thru their own prism? Obviously, I complement everyone too. What I meant is that I just want to be extra aware of how everyone in the “room” is percieving the conversation. It’s hard and I ended up (in this case) making you feel like you needed to explain your compliments. I didn’t mean to do that. I’m glad you will always be generous with your compliments.
Star, I can’t tell anyone how I found out because I’m worried for the safety of everyone and I have no evidence. The evidence is spread out over 25 years in different peoples’ memories. But now I know where and to what kind of person he is targeting. It’s so sick.
The universe gave me an unbelievable, soul-shaking, earth-rattling weekend. I met someone, got a job offer, discovered all this pedaphile stuff and I’m still reeling. I had only went out to run errands on Friday and the coincidences and bizarreness just started happening completely out of my control or direction. And they still haven’t stopped. My mind is overloaded but I’m not scared.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 1:22pm
JaneSmith says:
Skylar,
When I wrote the above post, I wasn’t referring to anything that was said on this thread. It goes back to a dialogue I had with Kathleen. She said that compliments aren’t necessary any longer for her, as she is quite comfortable with her own realistic perspective of herself (slight variation of the conversation, but the meaning is apparent).
Sweetheart, I do understand how sensitive and vigilant many of the folks are on here. I was the same way when I jumped in on my first post over a year ago. I was still realing from confusion and heartache from a recent involvement with a truly messed up dude.
I was uber sensitive, deeply concerned with not being accepted, believed, and offending or being offended. I was super careful with my responses, hopefully treating others with the respect and concern they deserve as I fundamentally realized how cruel words directed to me are like needle sharp daggers prodding at my heart. I did not wish to inflict any harm on people who were on my side. Who were not the sick, evil humanoids preying on the vulnerable.
I’m no longer in that sensitive, easily hurt place. I am healed from that pain and all past pains and misery. It took time to work on the past and to work on strengthening myself. I couldn’t have done it alone. The Triune God has been with me through it all, and I pleaded for help, for the strength to overcome my own inner demons because I very much wanted sublime joy, happiness and tranquility in my life.
I knew that this was possible as I slowly, over time with many prayers, became the woman I really was. That happy, determined, kind, gentle and generous woman who I am now. Today.
I guess I viewed it in simplistic terms: I could be happy or I could be miserable. Make a choice. Choose. And I chose happiness.
I think my confidence came about during my healing process as I became aware I don’t NEED any one person. That I don’t need their approval, their acceptance, their love and concern. I can give myself all these things and more.
Of course, I appreciate kind words, respect and admiration from the people I am super close to or even strangers. The special ones I dearly love and care for. But it’s become more of a mutual admiration society. Goodness and light is always shared and it is quite beneficial for each other.
So, there it is. I am not personally hurt or irritated by any words written on here. What bothers me, what confounds me is the hurt, whether it is misinterpreted, imagined or real, between one or more of you lovely folks.
You are all wonderful and sweet and loving and compassionate so I will admit to being confused with there is conflict. But, seriously, it’s none of my business and you all are mature adults and have been through much worse than having to read a few words on a website. Much worse.
You can work it out and learn, heal as you do.
Peace
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 4:24pm
henry says:
I got my Jane Smith fix for the day —:)
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 5:43pm
JaneSmith says:
Aww, you’re such an earth angel, Henry.
Why don’t you come on over to my casa and I’ll make you my terrific homemade vegetable soup? So warm and tasty!
And that maniac Jack Frost has made his presence known by slinging some snow showers up here in Idaho. But, it’s cozy and toasty here, in my sanctuary, so no problem.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 5:54pm
JaneSmith says:
Oh, and there’s one more thing I’d like to share.
With my newly formed confidence, I no longer sweat the little things. I have retained my easy going, sunny disposition whether I’m mingling with folks are chillin in solitude.
I strive to take the long view, that my earthly time is not infinite and that I should appreciate and celebrate every wee minute I’m living.
Yeah, I have days where I’m less than stellar in mood but they are fleeting. I simply cannot suppress my inner joy and serenity for very long. Once you experience it, you don’t want to let it go. It feels too good.
I also don’t envy any person in the world. I have everything I need and want, my simple yet satisfying luxuries, my equanimity, my beloved tranquility. No melodrama, no unnecessary chaos, no involvements with toxic people.
True, I don’t have all the answers and sometimes not even aware of the questions. But they will come, in time if they are imperative to my continuing psychological and spiritual growth.
Just get to know yourself and to believe in yourself. Remove all self-doubts and unhealthy, negative thoughts and ideas most likely created by toxic parents and later people in your lives.
But you know what? I’m grateful for knowing such people in my life. By realizing the darkness, the total harm and suffering perpetrated by people, I most assuredly, emphatically appreciate the light. I can now discern what is harmful to me and what is and can be beneficial.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 6:13pm
OxDrover says:
Janie, dear, you put things so clearly. I’m coming to the same conclusions, that we just have two choices—the “dark side” or the LIGHT.
May “the force” be with you, I too, choose to walk toward the light. I think in the past I let things distract me that are really not, in the big scheme of things, important. Learning to focus on the things that ARE important, it makes things much more simple in the end. Much easier to focus on what is right, what is good, and realize that you cannot compromise on some things, and those things are important. The things that are not important are easy to compromise on.
“don’t sweat the small stuff, and keep in mind that it is mostly small stuff.”
Thank you Janie for sharing your wisdom with us. (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 8:15pm
JaneSmith says:
Oxy Pooh,
Yes! We are moving in the same direction, on the same page with each other! Isn’t that awesome?
Both of us have been visiting LF for about the same time, but you, doll, have given a tremendous amount of care, time and energy to the sweethearts on here who truly needed a kind hand to hold and a shoulder to cry upon.
I really don’t know where you get the energy, sos all I can say is…YOU ROCK!!…haha.
Oh, and THANK YOU very much, dearest, for sharing your priceless wisdom and sweetness with me!
Big hugs and lotsa love
PS…thnxs for including a star wars reference. you know the nerd in me loves that stuff.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 10:04pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
What a great thread!
So many people becoming their own authorities. We should do a calendar. Something like “Sayings from Chairman Mao,” but maybe “Sayings from Chairman Me.”
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 10:21pm
henry says:
Kathleen Can we be naked on the calendar? Love Fraud Members Bare All?
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 11:10pm
libelle says:
Dear JaneSmith, yea, let us start the new week in the “sweat shop of small things” with your attitude! You rock! It was so heart lifting reading your empowering words, thank you so much!
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 12:43am
JaneSmith says:
Libelle,
I have received your thank you and would like to offer YOU my own thank you very much! The magic of reciprocity! Ta-da!…haha.
I know it’s much more involved that a simple, sincere sign of appreciation, but it’s all I can do sitting in front of a computer monitor.
If whatever I have written touches someone, helps them with their own healing, brings on a smile or some chuckles then I feel as if I have given something back in the process. That’s what matters to me.
You’re such a sweetie. You deserve so much of the good life. Don’t forget it, ya hear?
Hugs
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 4:10pm
JaneSmith says:
Oh, I would concur with Kathleen about missing the invasion of a predator troll the other night.
You know what I’ve learned about internet predators? That they are insufferably BORING! Big time yawning material. I start counting sheep whenever I happen upon some of their dubious drivel.
I probably would have gone into protective hyper mode, like a mother goose gathering her chicks to her, if I’d been on LF when he/she infected this website. Not that anyone on here needs my protection but it’s part of my nature to try to protect others from any type of harm.
They can’t hurt me, offend me, and they certainly don’t terrify me. Hah, as if!
Hey, I’ve had plenty of real life experiences with predators so some slimoid on the internet seeking to cause chaos and self doubts within myself is sooo out of his/her league.
I have emerged victorious, the true winner, from stupid involvements with stupid, toxic people. So there ain’t no way in hell I’m going to let ANY predator affect me or even get near me.
We’re the complex, interesting, compelling people. They are basically trite, banal, and excruciatingly dull.
Ho hum…
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 4:47pm