When does bitterness become a disorder?
The damage done to strangers, lovers and family members by sociopaths includes physical, emotional, psychological, social and financial harm. Over the years I have encountered many people whose lives have been damaged in this way.
The victimization alone is very sad, but people suffer not only from the actual damage but from their psychological and emotional reactions to it. It is one thing to lose a large sum of money or time that you can’t ever get back. The losses happened and are permanently in the past. It is another thing for a person’s present to be occupied by that loss.
The Aftermath is often more extensive than the victimization itself
It is my observation that for many victims this aftermath lasts a long time and includes considerable dysfunction and this dysfunction causes additional damage. Many have used the label “PTSD” for these psychological, emotional and physical reactions to victimization. Although I agree that diagnosis may fit some, I have never been entirely comfortable with it applied to this context. The reason is that PTSD technically applies to only to situations that are “life-threatening.” PTSD is an anxiety disorder as opposed to an “adjustment disorder” and some symptoms that victims have are not based in “anxiety.”
Psychologist and Professor, Dr Michael Linden, of the Research Group Psychosomatic Rehabilitation, Berlin, Germany has proposed a new disorder be added to the DSM. This disorder, termed Post-Traumatic Embitterment Disorder or PTED describes the reactions I have seen in many people victimized by sociopaths.
I thought seriously about this blog for two weeks before posting it because suggesting there is such a thing as PTED is far from politically correct and sincerely, I would not want anyone to get the idea that I blame victims for their aftermath symptoms. On the other hand, I hope that those who have the symptoms Dr. Linden identifies will consider addressing them. I am also not in favor of the medicalization of common psychological reactions and so am not rushing to advocate PTED be declared an official diagnosis.
What is PTED?
Just as PTSD is thought to result from the threat of loss of life, PTED results from a different kind of threat. Dr. Linden states regarding PTED, “The core pathogenic mechanism is not the provocation of anxiety, but a violation of basic beliefs. This threat to deeply held beliefs, acts upon the patient as a powerful psychological shock, which triggers a prolonged feeling of embitterment and injustice.”
For victims of sociopath’s the sociopath’s behavior violates core beliefs about human nature and sense of safety. That theme is discussed over and over on this website.
Diagnostic and associated features
The essential feature of posttraumatic embitterment disorder is the development of clinically significant emotional or behavioral symptoms following a single exceptional, though normal negative life event. The person knows about the event and perceives it as the cause of illness. The event is experienced as unjust, as an insult, and as a humiliation. The person’s response to the event must involve feelings of embitterment, rage, and helplessness. The person reacts with emotional arousal when reminded of the event. The characteristic symptoms resulting from the event are repeated intrusive memories and a persistent negative change in mental well-being. Affect modulation is unimpaired and normal affect can be observed if the person is distracted…
Besides prolonged embitterment individuals may display negative mood, irritability, restlessness, and resignation. Individuals may blame themselves for the event, for not having prevented it, or for not being able to cope with it. Patients may show a variety of unspecific somatic complaints, such as loss of appetite, sleep disturbance, pain.
PTED is said to be a disabling condition and is very difficult to treat.
Additional comments
Although I read two of Dr. Linden’s papers (see below) I was disappointed that he failed to define what it means to be bitter. How does bitterness differ from other reactions like anxiety or grief? Bitter is not an emotion it is a taste. Is he suggesting that victims have an actual bitter taste in their mouths? In studying dictionary definitions I can offer that bitterness is unique in that there is an anger/hostility component- synonym resentful, hostile feeling.
Provided he can more precisely define bitterness, I think Dr. Linden may be communicating something useful here. That is the idea that we have to mobilize our resources to move beyond events that threaten us. Events that threatened core beliefs may be very traumatic for people. It is important for victims to examine their core beliefs in recovering from a relationship with a sociopath.
I am interested in your reactions to this proposed diagnosis.
References
Linden, Michael, Kai Baumann, Barbara Lieberei, and Max Rotter. 2009. “The Post-Traumatic Embitterment Disorder Self-Rating Scale (PTED Scale).” Clinical Psychology & Psychotherapy 16, no. 2: 139-147.
Linden, Michael, Kai Baumann, Max Rotter, and Barbara Schippan. 2008. “Diagnostic criteria and the standardized diagnostic interview for posttraumatic embitterment disorder (PTED).” International Journal of Psychiatry in Clinical Practice 12, no. 2: 93-96.
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
This is one of the most thought provoking articles for me that have been presented on LF in the past year.
While not every behavior is or should be, I think, a “diagnosis” in the DSM the concept of “PTED” as a result of the devestation of such negative events in our lives as the losses suffered by victims is very interesting.
I noticed when I was working in family practice clinics the differences in how different patients perceived various levels of physical pain and in how the dealt with it. some patients would “cry” over a “paper cut” while other patients would “walk in on their broken leg”—why the differences? Cultural? Why?
I recently read that a GENE has been discovered for pain tolerance and there is a genetic difference in how people perceive pain. Of course there is “environment” and “training” as well, but there was an ANSWER to my wonderings.
I have also wondered why different people react so differently to the devestation caused by the trauma of the losses. Why some people never seem to “go on” with their life, but become “forever bitter” or “forever helpless”?
As Dr. Viktor Frankl in his book “Man’s Search for Meaning” talked about how different people in the Nazi camps would just give up and turn their faces to the wall and die, and others would fight to survive. Hang on. Also how sxome when they were released became destructive, others became and stayed bitter, etc.
I remember the article you wrote about the “helpless mouse” and I wonder if there is something like that going on here.
I think the use of the term “PTSD” to describe the “state” in which some suvivors of psychopaths find themselves emotionally, is like you said, not “clinically” correct, but yet is “close” in terms of the reactions of the victims.
“The same sun that hardens the clay, will melt the wax” is a phrase I have heard in my family all my life. The meaning of course is that the same conditions that will act on two different substances get different results because of the make up of the substances themselves. The sun hardens the clay into brick, but melts the wax into a puddle.
So WHY does an encounter with a psychopath melt one person into a puddle of bitterness, and make another a warrior? (and all stages in between)
Making every action/reaction into an “offical” diagnosis I dont’ think is the answer to catagorizing every human behavior as an “illness” or “disorder” but the man has sure come up with some food for thought for victims and those who treat them or support them.
Thanks for this article, it will give me something to ruminate on for quite some time. As always, your articles are interesting, inspiring and thought provoking for application to our lives.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:04am
Inquirente says:
Liane,
Wow, amazing, right on target article, again!
The 100% agree, the entire family can suffer from this ‘PTED’, as an aftermath of a sociopath. The direct victim, which iin our case is the person who married a sociopath, parents of this victim, (they are also victims) and extended family her brother and sister and law who, for whatever reason, allowed the sociopath to survive in their world. I am not being critical of their reasons because it has to do with manipulation by an extremely good con man. They have to be feeling anger, hostility and resentment after the ‘full mask’ was revealed and they know they have been conned by a sociopath. They were emotionally and financiall impacted by him.
And, it truely affected people like myself and my husband, who actually tried to warn them, identifying many ‘Red Flags’ and advising them to get rid of him. We feel bittter, first and foremonst, at the ’sociopath’ but at the parents and extended family members who did not listen or chose to ignore the information that we brought to their attention. And of course, felt we were totally off base and cruel to ever think this guy was living a lie and using them.
Sounds very convoluted …but describes what has been happening in our situation.
To me as long as any ‘bitterness’ stays with the family then the sociopath still wins the game. But right now we see no light at the end of the tunnel and try to have little to no contact. Because when we do have contact, it is always turned against us, blame, bitterness and attitude. And we are as quilty of blasting the people we think should let go of any bitterness toward us.
My reaction to this post is, ‘perspective’ – my optimism will be that some day a healthier perspective can exist among this small family of ours. However, if that does not occur, we remain encouraged that the sociopath is out of their lives and they can now move forward.
Thanks for the post!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:35am
persephone7 says:
This is the challenge for all of us – and for some, more of a challenge than
for others. Bitterness is something I know I have guarded against, it is
a negative force and road I don’t want to go down. So perhaps bitterness
is more about free will, we get to choose whether to be the clay or the
wax, like seeing the glass half-empty or half-full.
Thanks for investigating this in your article, Liane – it’s something that affects us all and can determine the speed and positive sense of effectively approaching our own respective futures.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:40am
Inquirente says:
Oxdover,
Yes, I would love the anser to that question of why some people remain ‘bitter’ and isolated from the real world and others turn into ‘warriors’?
I know we can only work on keeping ‘our perspective’ more healthy, we can not control anyone else in how they deal.
Thanks to all you ‘warriors’ on this site.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:42am
persephone7 says:
excuse that over-verbose sentence, I ‘chose’ to be too wordy…
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:47am
OxDrover says:
Dear Inquirente, I ahve enjoyed your perspectives and also persephone’s. I think sometimes I have been both the “wax and the clay” alternately. Why? I’m not sure. sometimes I think I know myself less than others “know” me…self diagnosing why we do anything is very difficult because we only have our internal perspective. And frankly, I have not always been “honest with myself” (how many of us really are?) LOL Isn’t being honest with outselves and facing the truth wht Love Fraud is all about? What the journey we are all making is all about?
In fact, in our family we have a tradition of the “Eleventh Commandment” (in addition to the 10 that Moses got) and the “Eleventh commandment” is “THOU SHALT NOT FOOL THYSELF” I think that more people have violated that 11th one than ALL the other 10 put together! I know that I have.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:50am
persephone7 says:
Hi Oxy and Inquirente:
Oxy – that’s a good observation about sometimes ‘being the wax and the
clay alternately’ and I’ve done that too. But I think even that is just about
our being human, like being vulnerable at one moment and strong the next.
And these crazy relationships fragment us in ways that normal ones don’t,
right down to our being ‘waxy’ or ‘hard’. And neither is bad – you could
actually see being flexible or free-flowing as positive in some instances,
where being hard, or inflexible could be a detriment in others.
God gave us the capacity for so many emotions, we are masters of our
own incredible machine that is ever-changing and didn’t really come with
a set manual. That it is sometimes written in a language we don’t understand is part of the class we’ve all been (and are) attending.
It’s kind of like ‘Life for Dummies’ though we don’t have to see ourselves
as Dummies – I like the ‘Warriors’ label much better!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:02am
persephone7 says:
Inquirente:
You’re right as well about the sociopath ‘winning the game’ if we choose
the path of bitterness and not realizing full, happy lives after our encounters with them.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:08am
style1 says:
Wow! This article was dead on for me. I have been through so much in my life in relationships and I have survived without becoming bitter.. until lately.. I have pulled into myself and I am sure am a bit depressed. I have lost the hope of love.. that there is man that knows what it is and isn’t just an act. I am trying to not lose my soft side, my feminine good stuff and that I will have it to be open to the right man that enters my life. I have been hurt more in my heart than with this last man but this last man took away something else. He was so contrived and orchestrated while he had little to nothing to offer me in the way of a life but his attention. But the attention that he agve to me was enticing. I have never had that much and now, I am finding the beginning of a normal relationship is strange and tedious. I have never moved fast into anything, but after he spun me in at lightening speed. It is like I have this imprint on me, that if it isn’t fast, it isn’t happening. THis last man confused me on a level that I haven’t felt before. Because his intentions appeared so good and worthy while being not so. And it was so one sided. He literally convinced me and I went dragging into it.. and now I am left feeling strange about it all. I am having this aftemath to experincing a relationship with a man that I was not sure that I wanted. He convinced me, he made it happend then I guess, I wanted what he said tobe real and true and it wasn’t so now am left with the after feelings.. Wondering..can I ever trust again. And I was thinking, I never really loved this man because I didn’t respect him. Innately, I didn’t have respect for him or his behavior or his talk, I found it interesting even fascinating. And he kept me spinning and connected to him. Now, I am disconnected and I feel a need to plug in ….it is very strange.. this feeling…And the realization that my instincts were accurate. His love is only if you fit his agenda, believe him and do has he wishes.. even to your spiritual beliefs… Thanks I am just getting my thoughts out.. I am processing.. I don’t want to carry bitterness.. and some on here from their posts are into revenge and I was for a bit.. but it soon passed.. revenge keeps you hooked in..
He’s the complete letting go that opens you up to opportunities of life.. armed with the knowledge gleaned from what was experineced, listen with your intisicnts and when you know what you know listen to yourself and not the con.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:32am
persephone7 says:
style1: Don’t give up – I’ve been feeling those same feelings you expressed lately, even with all I know about my man – in a way, I wanted him to call last night or even today, even if only so I could be forced to stay NC…but that feeling of actually not respecting them though hooked as if they are some kind of fascinating creature we don’t want to let go of…it’s sick. and I don’t want to carry bitterness either – or shame which hit me when I admitted the times I’ve paid, not him and I never did or had to do that with any other man or date in my life. Even Mother Teresa would have recognized that this was a con and to take your compassion elsewhere – that you’re leading yourself and this person as well down a road to ruin.
Let’s keep going, I like your posts – they’re full of your own innate depth and I think you know that about yourself through what you write here.
We don’t have to ‘fit their agendas’ anymore, we see how it goes. It’s
hard to be disconnected though, sometimes I do feel like I’m on Mars now…or just flew back from it.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:49am
justabouthealed says:
Besides defining bitterness, normal negative life event has to be defined:
“following a single exceptional, though normal negative life event.”
What is an abnormal negative life event? What is a normal negative life event?
Would this “disorder” apply to people bitter about a disease that has crippled, them, for example? And is that different from someone who is bitter that a neighbor’s monkey maimed them for life? If nobody did anything about the owner who still has the monkey? And is that different than someone who is bitter because they lost all their funds to Madoff? (sp?) Does it matter if it is two weeks later? Two years later? Two decades later?
Does it matter if you are bitter but it doesn’t interfere with your sleep? Your day-to-day functioning? Where is the line?
Is is strictly a “disorder” of faulty cognition?
And how do you prevent this disorder from being used by P’s as one more tool to beat up victims with?
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:04pm
justabouthealed says:
Can’t you just hear Chris Brown saying, “Yeah, I said I was sorry, I apologized on national television, I wrote her a song…but she has PTED and needs treatment. That’s why we aren’t together. I tell you, it is so hard to carry on, knowing she needs help but is refusing to get that help.”
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:07pm
style1 says:
Persephone 7,
Thanks concerning my posts.. I am really trying to work through these feelings by reading others posts and writing about all this.
The energy and pace is slow here now, where it was once busy..I was preparing for his weekends visits and this constant attention and enerby. And this has been over for awhile but just now, I am feeling the depths of it.. I guess with the holidays approaching and my not feeling up to par psysically becasue of allergies.. I am quiet and to myself. Time I wished for while dating him. Now, I have it, an over abundance of it.
Occasionally, I have thoughts, his business deal happens, he comes to me and states that he realizes what he put me through and we try again. That is I guess the hope that he reall did love me on some level.. But, of course this will not occur. THere were too many other issues not related to money, his wierd spiritual obsession, his children, his controlling ways and his horrible voice when he is angered.. He is not what I want.. but some of him is.. his manners, his thoughtful and helpfulness and some of that attention.
I am wondering if I can feel a ‘normal’ man’s attention will be enough? This man torked my perceptions in a bizarre way.
When he would leave..I would dance around the house singing I am free! I am free! And now, like you wrote I feel like am abandoned on some strange planet.. My world seems less bright and a bit off.. Is it just the time frame. In that, it’s needed that I pull in..? I have done what the books say.. I go to movies alone, I work out.. I rearranged the house to be mine.. THat is another thing I shouted when he was gone.. this is my house,, mine! not yours! You have nothing to do with it. Yet he claimed it as his.. It like he just claimed mylife as his. And now that he is gone and I wanted him gone. It is strange now.. so what is going on? Just this timing of my processing.. clearing out or what? I know that I am attractive, intelligent and have things to offer.. I have a lot of love go give. I am ready to fall in love.. I never loved him. I never felt in love.. I felt manipulated and had the facade of it.. the facade of the marriage like interaction with no real basis except what he created, contrived, it was so false.. yet such a good imitation..
And never date a man that doesn’ pay.. men are supposed to care for women.. why do it all yourself .. I resented mine because, he lived in my house, yet he paid for things or I would’ve never been in it. If a man doesn’t have his own resources, I am not interested. THisman was the most down and out that I ever was involved with.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:19pm
OxDrover says:
I think our lives post-P have to be more than just that “P-episode” or be will stay in the bitterness.
I do believe healing is a life-long process of improving ourselves, but it is more about US than just “getting over” the damage that THEY did. If the P-experience prompts us to improve ourselves then in the end it has been a painful experience from which we gained insight into ourselves that allowed us to become stronger and better.
If we, post-P experience, just focus on THAT ONE part of our lives we will be bitter. STAY bitter, and stay stuck in that spot forever.
I was a person when I was born. That person grew as I did, but there were some weaknesses and even flaws in the person I became anew each day. Some of those flaws, misinformation, weaknesses, made me more vulnerable to Ps than other people might have been….plus, I was born into a family full of Ps and unknowingly passed on those genes to my own P-offspring, the coping skills I learned and adopted in dealing with my family of origin when I was a child were not ones that “played well” in adulthood (when I had a choice about which coping skills to use.) I wasn’t aware of that dysfunction in myself in my earlier adult life. NOW I AM aware, and I have CHOSEN to adapt to circumstances, to evolve my coping skills into ones that “play better” in my life.
This “evolution” of Oxy is no longer about THEM, but about me. I am MORE than my experiences with the psychopaths. They are not the defining moments of my life. NOW I have choices and I make choices about how to live my life, and how to set boundaries for others with whom I interact,
If I had stayed focused on the P-experience as a “loser” and “bitter” and “vengeful” I would have become as bad or worse than them actually, because they can’t/won’t change, but I HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXERCISE CHANGE. If I choose not to when I CAN, then I have fallen lower than they are.
The Bible talks about a sow who was washed returning to the mud and a dog eating its own vomit….I think if we stay bitter after any experience, we are choosing to return to the mire, or to eat our own vomit. (sorry to be so graphic, but I figure if the Bible can I can too. LOL)
I FELT the need for vengeance early on, I WANTEd vengeance, and I THOUGHT ABOUT IT almost continually, but that was a stage I was in, I think, and I deliberately didn’t like the way it made me feel and chose to STOP it. I can imagine how these chronically bitter people fell because I have been bitter (for quite some time) but I feel much better since I decided I do NOT want to feel that way, to think that way.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:20pm
style1 says:
justabouthealed,
Yep.. I got what you are writing.. they turn it on you..
Mine used to say, “You don’t trust me becasue of your past.”
and that was not true.. I didn’t trust him because of the wisdom that I had gleaned from my past and he wasn’t trustworthy..
In relationship, we all have our issues and places that we are.. manipulators use this to further their control and con..
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:23pm
OxDrover says:
Wow, several of us posting on this at once! JAH, I love the “chris brown” quote! LOL I saw part of the 20/20 interview with her the other night and of couse I don’t think she “gets it” what he is. Also she said that her father used to beat up on her mother. which would of course predispose her to accept this treatment herself. I hope she continues to realize more about WHAT Chris appears to be –a P without remorse etc.
Very interesting conversations guys!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:25pm
style1 says:
Oxdrover, agree..
to heal fully, we need to release the need for vengance…
and let it go.. so that we can go forward…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:27pm
persephone7 says:
Mine would say ‘ why do you always have to bring up the past ‘ even if
it was from something that happened the day before…it was always me
who was being unreasonable, especially when I was looking out for my
own time and heaven forbid, my own ‘agenda.’ He would always say,
‘I’ll keep you posted’ or ‘this is my plan ‘ and then he’d never stick to it -
talk about a slippery slope!
So I’m so tired of bobbing and weaving…Style1, I feel ready to love again –
in a way – but I think we both need to give ourselves time to grieve our
relationships, however unhealthy they’ve been – and not be too quick to
get through the process of just being alone with all that entails with our
emotions coming up – as they are right now.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:38pm
witsend says:
justabouthealed,
I saw that interview to, on 20/20. It was very interesting. Especially her mention of “the eyes”.
Much of the problem of being involved with the disorder/toxic individual is that they will use WHATEVER we have against us.
Both our strengths and our weeknesses.
And then to further confuse us their “projection” of their own behavior or irrational thinking is thrown back onto us as if it was our own.
I still have a big problem understanding the projection thing. I guess it is just another way for them to distort reality.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:44pm
lostingrief says:
ox:
just saw a photo of chris brown and he looks SO much like my ex … the eyes really were almost identical. black as can be, devoid of humanity, but somehow beckoning. they are so dangerous … seductive, amphibious, charismatic, demonic.
while she may not get ‘it’ all, she’s off to a good start. she broke away.
throwing our girl, rhianna, a … Towanda!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:48pm
OxDrover says:
Witsend, did you see the UTUBE videos of fans’ reactions to the situation? the man who aid it was her fault? If she hadn’t “provoked” Chris then he wouldn’t have hit her. LOL I swear I thought I would have a hemmorage over that one! But unfortunately, that is the way many people do think. maybe that guy was projecting too, maybe he was also an abuser who was “prevoked” to hit “his woman.”
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:49pm
amber says:
Wow. This article hits home for me. I would say the last year I was with my ex S, I had become very bitter…angry…resentful..so many emotions…But he more I knew about him, the more bitter I became. My want for revenge was all consuming. Literally every moment was spent thinking about how to bring him down. But then I thought, doesn’t that make me just like him?? Cold, calous, calculating, bitter, angry… I don’t want to become him. So I’m trying to let that go. I sturggled with it for a year, hating him so much and wanting revenge.. and the longer I let it go on, the worse I felt. I don’t want to be bitter at the world like him. I want to be happy and more forward. Something that he will never have the capability to do! So I guess that’s the best revenge is just like you said Oxy…
“This “evolution” of Oxy is no longer about THEM, but about me. I am MORE than my experiences with the psychopaths. They are not the defining moments of my life. NOW I have choices and I make choices about how to live my life, and how to set boundaries for others with whom I interact,”
You summed it up perfectly. Thank you. It’s been almost a month with NC, and although we’ve gone much longer than that, this time around, acceptance has been a huge difference. I’m ready to accept and move on. I don’t think I was before.
And that Rhianna interview was intense. I wonder too if she knows what she’s really involved with. Last night on Larry Kind he interveiwed women about domestic violence and their reaction to Rhianna’s interview and Larry Kind pissed me off. He kept asking, “well WHY go back??” And the women tried to explain and then he responded by saying, “person comes home monday gets hit, comes home tuesday gets hit, comes home wednesday gets hit, comes home thursday…so who’s the crazy one??” What an ass. And Nicole Brown’s sister responded, “We need to change the question from, why go back? To why are they doing the hitting in the first place?” It was a good interview. If you get a chance, look it up.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 1:01pm
lostingrief says:
just did a tad of research on PTED … seems more like a normal reaction to a very abnormal experience. but okay, i guess revenge motives lasting forever might be a problem.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 1:03pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I think that reaction although sickening is fairly common.
It is much the same as the “why didn’t you leave” question that interviews always ask to victims of abuse. It is even asked of children when their abusers are molesting them or abducting them.
I guess the MAIN thing the general public NEEDS to understand is that when anyone finds themselves as a victim in an abusive situation……Regardless if the abuse is physical, sexual, kidnapping, emotional….. WHATEVER….Along with the abuse comes the “mental conditioning.”
I do not understand why this is so hard for people to “get.”
People really underestimate the powerless feeling the victim has. Those “strings” that the abuser holds are very strong.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 1:04pm
witsend says:
Amber,
Nicole Browns sister brought up a very good point.
The QUESTIONS need to change on TV interviews BEFORE the publics response will change. These TV interviews are watched by millions of people. And has a HUGE impact of the general populations “opinions” of these matters.
Some of the HARD questions need to be asked to the abusers.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 1:13pm
keensight says:
Dear Dr. Leedom -
Thanks for writing this post. Last night I spent a good deal of time rereading the differences that exist between PTSD and
Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. CPSTD, I believe,
isn’t an included diagnoses in the DSM -IV, but what you are
describing, this embitterment diagnosis, seems to follow the same line as CPTSD.
PTSD refers to something that is life threatening and that can
occur in a single instance that threatens a person’s sense of
his/her bodily or wordly integrity being destroyed. For most of those who have had an “ongoing traumatization” by a sociopath or several at the same time, CPTSD is the result of a cascade of ongoing, repeated traumatizations, that not only can threaten one’s bodily integrity, but are likely to shatter all the beliefs/assumptions that they hold about their world and their safety in it, especially as it relates to the commonly held belief in the decency and fairness of other human beings.
Can this cause bitterness and is there a “universal” definition
of it that can be applied to every different individual who presents with symptoms of this proposed disorder?
You said bitterness is a taste in one’s mouth. This is true, but is it not also true that bitterness is also the filter, like that placed on a camera lens, that alters one’s view of the frame,
or in this case, one’s entire world view after repeated traumatization?
Charles Figley, reknowned traumatologist, and his peers did a study of VietNam veterans, those that did well, and others that suffered from PTSD after returning from the war. They wanted to know how to break through the sense of isolation that permeated the lives of these vets and how their suffering
led them into drug and alcohol addictions as well as outbursts of violence and anger that shattered their family lives as well.
In a way, this addresses one of the concerns that Inquirente brought up about how one person can devastate a whole family.
What Figley and his colleagues found was that the whole family system is affected by the PTSD because they are unaware of what is happening inside the vet. PTSD/CPSTD
is damaging when it is dealt with via silence. It doesn’t go
away. Many of the worst suffering vets suffered what is known
as “Sanctuary Trauma” upon return from the war. Their experiences were so alien to the everyday “normal life” pattern, that they felt no one could relate to them, thus feeling traumatized again by a colluded silence that family members, felt, would be the best way to let them heal.
Most survivors of sociopaths know exactly what this is. It is very hard to describe one’s shattered world view and life circumstances to another who has never been affected by their presence and the destruction they create and leave in their wake. Difficult to describe how it alters one’s daily pattern of living. Shabby Chic on another thread said she was
crumpled up into a ball on the floor upon the ultimate realization of what was happening to her at the hands of one in her life.
Whether it is happening in the workplace, known as “Mobbing”
or in the community, know as “Community Based Harrassment” or one on one as with a a single sociopath,
most of it can ultimately be traced to one or several bullies.
If you go to Tim Field’s website, I think it’s something like
BullyInSight.com he gives an excellent description of these serial bullies and to my mind, his defining of them is completely in line with what we know of the traditional sociopath. Most people don’t realize what huge problems these
people are in society. Several countries have enacted legislation related to stopping them in their tracks before they
drive their victims to suicide, whether in the community or the workplace. He also addresses their impact upon the most
vulnerable population, children. Bullying at school, I believe,
is the place to stop these little monsters right in their tracks,
before they go on to shatter any lives in the future.
One can not grieve without the taste of bitterness or the filter of bitterness permeating life, at least for a time. OxDrover talked about the process in another post and how we all can go from one stage to another and cycle back again along the way. Before the grief becomes clean, we need to fully acknowledge the bitterness that has been created by them and grieve it thoroughly. This entails fully feeling your feelings, which can be scary for many survivors. It’s a powerful experience and sometimes best done with the aid of
a caring professional who understands sociopathy first hand
as well as PTSD and CPTSD.
WHEN THINGS FALL APART, a book written by the Buddhist Nun, Pema Chodron, helped me a great deal as my world began to shatter at the hands of sociopaths in my life. Adopting a Buddhist perspective regarding suffering can take you a long way into the process of accepting grief and bitterness, and learning to adopt the awareness that all things are impermanent in this transitory world, including grief and bitterness. She talks about not shying away from that which is painful and uncomfortable to deal with, but rather to, adopt an inquisitive nature into these areas and follow them to their source.
Ultimately, the message I got was to learn to cultivate
strength and fearlessness. Approaching that which brings hurt
and understanding its nature and letting go of what Kathleen
Hawk called “the story” can go a long way toward removing the taste and lens of bitterness.
Each person is constitutionally different in their strengths.
We all heal at different rates and times depending…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 1:35pm
persephone7 says:
Keensight: I think Pema Chodron, the Buddhist Nun is one of the greatest
resources – she is very real and even funny, too in her talks about ‘Shenpa’
that uncomfortable place we find ourselves in, just a part of everyone’s life and ‘learning to stay.’ To just observe ourselves and the situation and not deny it or our feelings. Thanks for bringing her up as well as your whole message in your post. Another good one (and I like her audio cds as she is very personable and talks on them herself) is one
called “Getting Unstuck.”
Sometimes it seems I’ve read so many books, listened to enough tapes and cds – finally it does sink into your subconscious and you start to live it more, you do finally get it – from these outside sources and from as Erin mentioned in another thread – a good friend who stays with you, repeating the mantra of ‘you deserve more, you’re a fine person, just get away…’
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 2:14pm
OxDrover says:
What wonderful and deep thoughts guys!
I watched an interview about the man who killed the soldiers at Ft. Hood. Of course (in retrospect) there were BIG RED FLAGS in his behavior BEFORE he took the guns and started shooting, that the military missed.
This woman newsaster asked the male newscaster, “so you think all the stress that is being put on the military personnel is what caused this? (the killings)” “This man was obviously sick, why didn’t someone HELP HIM BEFORE THIS WENT THIS FAR?”
Like the fault for this was the Army not “helping” this poor man. I don’t know what his “problem” was or “why” he did what he did, but he obviously was BITTER against the government, and also reportedly using alcohol in excess, but to automaticallty ASSUME that anyone who does anything is because they were “pushed to it” by some thing or other and that apparently all evil is because they were stressed.
Sure, some people at some times do things because they are insane (in the legal sense) and some things do things like this because they are just simply mean, bitter, etc. but until our society starts realizing that people have CHOICES and that there is TRULY evil in this world, truly evil people, how will we ever be able to help victims.
The true victims are the soldiers who were killed and their families, not the shooter.
I’m not saying why this man did this, but at the same time, HE is not the victim, and no matter what was done TO HIM by anyone, or how he was “provoked” by the Army because they would not let him out (after paying for his medical education for an agreement to work for the army afterwards) he had no right to kill these totally innocent victims. So unless this man was truly out of touch with reality (and I don’t think he was from what has been published so far) HE was not the victim, and that news commentator pithed me off with her comments and “concern” for the SHOOTER.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 2:19pm
style1 says:
Persephone 7, After being with the guy that I was with the word Buddhist makes me ill. But yes, just sitting with ones self and feeling and letting the thoughts come and go. Today, I am doing things around my house, changing sheets, etc.. I recall my guy would complain because one of my sets of sheets isn’t as long as he is used to…he would go on and on about how sheets are supposed to be. This from a man that doesn’t own a bed and when I met him was sleeping in a child’s single bed with mickey mouse sheets or some such and he had a Buddhist type altar in the room.. I thought it creepy then and do now.. of course, he had explanations for why this was and of course, I accepted them as they were a set of unfortunate circumstances that led him, the wonderful, Mr. Perfect to this place.. and it was because of the women in his life and just bad luck…
But then, he moves into my large king size bed and complains.. about any little thing that isn’t up to his standards.. laughable, huh? I bet, that he never lived in a house as nice as mine and with as many gorgeous things.. I saw where he lived..and empty, large non-descript rental house.
Then if he was saying what he was eating say for lunch, he would say.. It’s a gorgeous ham sandwiche.. way over description for a ham sandwiche… and he would describe his hotel rooms as being huge with a huge king size bed when it was just a room at the Marriot.. and my house was a billion times better…
So irriational optimism as it relates to himself..
but me not quite up to his lofty standards…
Bitter …? Just reflecting back at what a bamboon he was.. and why did I put up with it..
I did say.. if you don’t like the sheets go buy some others and buy another bed. To which of course, I go no reply.
GeeZ!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 2:49pm
style1 says:
Bitter? I think getting riled up in the memories is normal in the process in the healing. I am a decorator my house by any standards although small is nice.. and I moved my clothes out of one of the closets into the garage so his clothes could be hung up .. and after he moved out. he told me that he wouldn’t have moved in that cracker box had he not loved me.
This from a man whose credit is so bad that he wouldn’t qualify for an apt.. so, he moves in with family friends that don’t run a credit check. So first, you are used for what you have then critized becasue it isn’t more or up to their lofty standards..
It’s just amazing when I look back… he wanted my life as my friends told me and he was jealous of me. So, he put me down..
and his accusations after it’s over.. that I almost destroyed his family… make absolutely no sense.. yet that is one of his accusations.. He didn’t see his family but once in over a year.. and I only met one of them.. so how does anything about his family have anything to do with me? It doesn’t.. but they way that they say things makes one look at themselves.. it is a ploy to get you to doubt yourself and to be more controlabel by their manipulation into their agenda.. He wants a woman to come in and take care of his family… so he was doing mind games on me…but by that time, I saw the fool for what he is…
Bitter.. no me… ! LOL… Angry at me for doubting me…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:03pm
style1 says:
And thinking the person who harms as the victum makes us all messed up in the head. And gets us to feel sorry for them and be further controlled and manipulated by them.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:04pm
persephone7 says:
style1:
Of course, there are scumbags who use any kind of religion or philosophy and give it a bad name, just because they use it for their own aggrandizement – like alohatraveler mentioned being so burned out on the new age spiritual hippie-types in Hawaii (or anywhere) who were just classic flakes…at least the b.s. meters get more finely tuned after you’ve had a run-in with these people.
I watched the Rhianna interview little bit ago – for such a young woman,
she gave such serious, heartfelt and intelligent responses – she seems
like she already has such an understanding of him and above all, what
really happened to her – let’s hope she holds on to that emotional scar like it is a kind of pearl – one that has set her free.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:09pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Style1,
It was because he was SO ENTITLED TO THE BEST, I’m just so sorry you didn’t measure up! Well, that’s just your loss for not measuring up! ROTFLMAO Yea, you “lost out on” him!!! Thank you Jesus!
I knew a woman P who lived in her car (everyone else’s fault of course) and she too was used to “only the finest” and it was always the rotten people in her life that took from her what was rightfully hers. Well, you know, I was fortunate it didn’t take me long to figure out that the WORST P in her life was HERSELF. Any other Ps she had dealings with was just coincidental, she was teh biggest P of all. Fortunately, I saw this rather quickly.
Any time I run into anyone who has “nothing” but keeps on talking about what they “used to have had” I get leary and keep my eyes open. First, because people who seem to regard THINGS and money as what makes you important or not are suspect to start with, but those who live in the past of “what I had” and so on will never march into the future.
Many people have financial ups and downs in our life, and I’ve had my share, but fortunately, I have never been one to think that money bought worth or respect. Usually, the people who DO think that way are, rich or poor, not “nice” people. If theya re rich they want to lord it over you, if they are poor, they want to tell you what they “use’ta have” and/or suck up to you so they can get what is yours.
By “belittling” what you had that was nice, he was trying to make himself feel superior to you, and you inferior to him. Glad it wasn’t successful.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:10pm
Inquirente says:
All of this is good insight. I am the type, when I feel bitter toward someone or recieve a ‘belittling’ note from someone, I try to over analyze it. I try to explain myself better or express anger toward that person in being so negative and off base. I think with those particular individuals that push my buttons NC should be the approriate action. Instead of reacting with bitterness back.
I feel that is what our niece is doing toward us, possibly. I congratulate her for that even if it means she and I and her Uncle have no relationship, or we remain uninvolved in helping her come back to her other family and past friends. This may be the only way for her to cope and survive today.
I am not a direct victim of this sociopath/con man lke she has been, so really can not know exactly how she feels or what may be appropriate for her recovery. I just can be hopeful and if she reaches out to me, I will be there and respond.
This sight has helped me gain that insight and to know that i can only be responsible for myself and how I react.
I want to be a warrior in the fight against these manipulative sociopaths who reek havoc on so many, however. So I do tend to keep my radar up and want others to know just how easily it can happen to anyone no matter what your education, socialization or status in life!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:02pm
libelle says:
Dear Dr Leedom, thank you so much for your dead on article. Food for thought as always! I personally think that embitterment is a possible end stage of being a victim. No hope at all. In German there is a clear understanding what “embitterment= Verbitterung” means. It has nothing to do with bitter taste but it is a state of the mind, and it is very difficult to describe. For me it is not translatable, as it is a specific state of the mind that is sour, cynical, negative, depressive and somehow aggressive and accusing and seeking for culprits, outspoken, unforgiving. It has nothing to do with anxiety, because the person got insulted and is entiteld to feel embittered, and they let the world know how unjust they have been treated, without any attempt to change. It is written in their face. The expression is not sad, not grieving. More aggressive, sour, bitter, like they have always something very distasteful in their mouth.
I have a German patient who has lung cancer and has never smoked, and she feels heavily insulted by the disease, having worked her whole life at an organic veggies health food plant, and she was very much “verbittert”. Even having to show up in our clinics was a big insult to her! Her little grandson succeeded at last at dragging her out of the embitterment, and lately she expressed some kind of gratitude of the outcome so far. (the chemo worked very well; it does not always need a P/N/S to be “embittered”)
I looked up the synonyms for the German term “Verbittert” in English, and maybe these are different aspects of the term you native English speaker might get out something of. My English is not so good to discern the different meanings of the words.
“verbittert”
embitters
rancorous {adj}
acerbated {adj} {past-p}
jaundiced {adj}
embittered {adj} {past-p}
acrimoniously {adv}
bitter {adj} [embittered]
I also think that we at LF are NOT embittered but try to get out of that corner of being a victim and find our way back to life, joy, sweetness, light, hope, future. Have you all a wonderful week! (((((Hugs))))) TOWANDA!!!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:14pm
style1 says:
Ox drover.. yes, his behavior was the entitlement deal with him.. he thought he was a King..
And it was always what he was going to do for me when his ship comes in…
Meanwhile..he lives in my house, etc… and yes.. I have had my ups and downs.. once lived in a huge house..but now, I have what I have and am proud of it.. and take good care of it..
He didn’t care for his things well.. his rental house was run down… the garage full of boxes full of stuff from his past and a neighborhood woman cleaned it out for him… and we sold all the stuff … I helped him clean up his life.. he was looking for me to do so..
and now, he is probably out there looking for another woman with a house..
When he moved out, he kept making comments about how nice and big the place is where he is living.. i said great send me photos.. never got any ….
Then once when he was visiting me in anger he said it was because of you I moved out and now I don’t have the amentities like I do here.. amentities..? Like my house is a hotel…
yep in the end when his act was cracking .. I saw the real him..
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:17pm
keensight says:
Hi Persephone7,
Your last post on the other thread was full of beautiful thoughts and imagery. Thank you.
I’m sorry for what you have gone through. I know what it’s like to have people move through your personal life and leave an indelible mark that’s not beneficial. It hurts and the loss can feel overwhelming at times.
You’re absolutely correct. Pema is very accessible. There’s
something so beautiful and practical in the simplicity of timeless logic or good sense. She conveys it beautifully, doesnt she? Wisdom of the ages coming out of human experience centuries old and very practical in its application. What people struggled with day to day centuries ago would still be comparable to what we struggle with today, regardless of the modern conveniences we have.
I agree, things become second nature upon repeated practice,
listening, reading and experiencing.
I really do believe that the message You’re A Good Person,
You Deserve More, Just Get Away is a valid one for all of us.
We who have survived what is unacceptable treatment and
behaviors for so long are grateful that our”Teachers” appear
when we are ready to learn the lessons. I know Pema showed
up in my life at the beginning of huge life changes.
As far as getting away, sometimes the only way to get away
is THROUGH feeling. As uncomfortable as it is to “learn to stay” it makes more sense than throwing ourselves headlong into a new relationship, until, as you said, we’ve absorbed the lessons of the one that caused the feelings that made us want to run away in the first place.
I hope I have, as you yourself discovered, an unending stream of books, tapes and cds that help me to better myself regardless of whether or not “The One” shows up. We are all worthy and worth attracting the kind of positive healing energy
to our lives that we so richly deserve. Like this website and books of Pema’s and all of the healing people here sharing what they know to help others, especially OxDrover, for sharing so much of her personal pain and growth, the living
examples of healing in action, provide solace for those hurting
so very much. The love of this ripples outward bringing healing to others reading this blog that we may never even be aware of having been touched. Synchronicity and grace in action to have our prayers answered is something I could never be grateful enough for.
Oxy -
Regarding the shooter at Fort Hood and what you had to say
about it: You’re right! There were plenty of big red flags about
him.
What I want to know is why this man was placed in a position to “witness” the suffering of these brave people, sometimes serving three consecutive tours of duty, and what they’ve been through. First, the danger of CPTSD was there. Second, the huge inner conflict he had to be struggling with, listening to the horrors of untimely death and maiming of people, ours
and theirs knowing he would be sent there.
As far as the religious factor goes, he never should have taken the oath to serve if there was a conflict for him. From what I read he wanted out since 2001 and his reasons were
known.
It’s wrong to say that others might do the same as he. It sounds like he flipped out at the prospect of having to go.
His actions were evil, end of story. There are no excuses
for killing defenseless people. It was cowardly. I won’t
speculate as to why anyone does anything. Crazy is crazy.
Some said he showed calm. Calm doesn’t equate to SANE.
None of us know what it’s like to witness the reexperienced
trauma of human beings who have participated in or experienced war and all its attendant horror. The human being
is hardwired not to kill others. They can be “trained” to do so,
but that doesn’t negate how it changes them and what is lost
in the process. Hearing and viewing this day in and day out
from a place of dispassion so as to provide proper treatment
for them isn’t a job any of us would cue up for. That plus
the fact that he wanted out since 2001 should have been taken
into account and wasn’t.
There needs to be some type of assessment for these professionals as well, after logging so many hours of this.
Regardless of religion or ethnicity it is a highly stressful
function, one that needs respite care and supervision because
of the trauma it entails.
No excuse will ever absolve the taking of life of defenseless
others.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:17pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
I understand how bitterness is different.
The cluster Bs in my life have altered my feelings of security. Yesterday I got 2 flat tires simultaneously on the interstate while traveling alone with my daughter. They were both full of nails and punctures. Heckifiknow how that happened. Just lucky, I guess.
I knew exactly what to do and how to do it. I was taking care of business, but the good Samaritans really held me up. A full half dozen thoroughly decent men stopped to help. (At least, there’s a high probability that each was decent.) Each gentleman’s arrival forced me to get back in the car, lock the door and as politely as possible request that he leave. Each did, although a bit slower than I would have liked. It really dragged the task out, having to deal with them.
If I was bitter, I would have resented those good Samaritans, and perhaps treated them badly. I’m not bitter, I just don’t take unnecessary risks with strangers any more. I fully understand that they were almost certainly good people trying to do the right thing. I don’t bear these people any malice, I don’t fear them and I don’t hate them. I simply won’t risk dealing with them.
The problem with the tires was somewhat thorny, but nothing that couldn’t be solved with the tools at hand, a call for a cab or a friend, and a trip to and from the local Treadquarters. No need to trust in strangers.
If I had truly been in a situation I couldn’t handle, I would have asked for the help of the state police. They stopped, but left as soon as it was apparent I had it under control. They were very understanding about my disinterest in assistance. I think the run into people like me quite a bit.
What is, is.
A certain percentage of the population is parasitic/predatory. It’s not that these people are out to get me personally. It’s just that they’re out to get whatever they can from whomever they can. In a way, I’m lucky. I’ve got no illusions left.
Bitter is taking the abuse of cluster Bs personally for the rest of your life. It ain’t personal. It just feels that way at first.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:31pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
PS –
“Red Flags”
The Fort Hood shooter was a walking red flag. So were “balloon boy’s” wacky, tacky parents.
Sometimes I think we’re a nation of morons. There really needs to be a better public understanding of the nature of personality disorders.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:34pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Elizabeth,
Sorry to hear that happened to you. You were totally right not to “trust in strangers”d—not today anyway!
Two things I never leave home without and one is my cell phone, and you know what the other one is. That little friend saved my life on 3 occasions over the past 30+ years and I don’t take any chances either. the major of little rock’s daughter broke down on a river bridge and got into the car with a stranger and a few miles up the road she threw herself out of the car to her death, the man has never been caught though there was a descripton of the vehicle. It happens. I might not be sitting here now if I hadn’t had my “friend” with me one night 30+years ago when I broke down on the freeway either. It discouraged the man from driving around the forth time and encouraged him to leave immediately.
No cell phones in those days, but even today no guarentee it will not be in a “dead zone.”
About the guy at ft. Hood.
The state of Arkansas will pay the medical school costs and living costs for a med student but they must work in designated “low medical care” areas for 4 years in exchange and if they don’t do it, they cannot get their medical license EVER and they cannot reimburse the state and skate free either. I’m not sure how the army does it but apparently he agreed to the deal and the army wasn’t going to let him out of it.
I’m not sure what his “poor review” was all about previous to being transferred to Ft. Hood. One witness said he was saying that the Muslim man (American) who killed 1 and wounded 1 at an induction center in Little Rock, AR a few months back was “doing good” and that all Muslims should do this.
I don’t understand why the person who heard him say this didn’t report it THEN. I agree in “freedom of speech” but that is like a cop saying after the death of another Policemen “I wish all Baptists would kill cops” WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE? Isn’t there something wrong with attitude of a man who would say this?
What about the people he worked with? I think the Army must have missed some BIG red flags in this man’s behavior being “off”—-I think somehow there was more going on than we know right now. But, no use speculating about it.
My heart goes out to the families of the slain and to their friends and comrades in arms. I know there is more than enough stress involved in war, going to war, leaving your family behind, etc. My (step) Grandson is in the Army now, and I have other friends whose lvoed ones are in the service. ALL VOLUNTEERS, not a conscript in the bunch, but even still, I know it is stressful, and potentially lethal, but no one in our country is made to join the army or move to Canada.
I lived through the Viet Nam war and the protests and all that went on with people leaving for Canada. I lost friends in combat, and friends who moved to Canada never to return. I won’t go into my personal opinion of war or our Government’s pollicy(ies) but i always told my sons, if you choose to join it is up to you, or if you would be drafted and you wanted to go to Canada I would be behind you either way, unless we needed to shoot out from the windows of our homes, and in that case, I’ll pass the ammunition and you do the shooting.
EC, glad you liked my “balloon” analogy! ha ha
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 7:10pm
keensight says:
Hi Elizabeth Conley,
Sorry to hear about your two simultaneous flat tires on the interstate highway while driving alone with your daughter.
How the heck were you able to replace both? Do you carry
two spares in your trunk?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:16pm
pollyannanomore says:
This writing wound me up. I wrote several responses and didn’t post them as upon reflection they were too bitter
I definitely believe there is such a thing as CPSTD from these psychologically and emotionally unsafe relationships. The anxiety felt by a mugging victim is a one time event, but targets in pathological relationships can suffer that sense of foreboding and terror and stress several times a day for years and years – it has an impact definitely. For many of us the stress blows out into the physical body in the form of chronic migraine, allergies, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, lupus and so on. Whether the stress alone causes these syndromes or just makes a gateway for infection to enter is unsure, but stress definitely contributes to their development.
Ongoing stress can permanently rewire the brain – the amygdala and the autonomic nervous system. It alters the chemical cascades and can even permanently alter our genetics. Anyone interested in this should check out a doco called The Ghost in Your Genes (google video). Researchers measured the stress levels (salivary cortisol) of women who were in New York during 9/11. Those who were in their third trimester of pregnancy when it happened gave birth to infants who showed abnormal levels of cortisol despite the fact they weren’t even born when the event happened and were not old enough to understand and process the significance of what happened.
This knowledge has implications for all of us who have a history of being treated unfairly. My father was an unavailable man so that means more than likely I was born with elevated stress hormones, which elevated even further with each witnessed argument and the strain of the split up of their marriage. That altered response to stress would have hit me each and every time I went through something stressful … so I was already at a disadvantage in terms of being able to process this.
I am quite useless at explaining it but the theory is called Kindling and comes from neurologist and psychiatrist Dr Scaer who wrote a book called The Body Bears the Burden. Basically a history of trauma weakens the defences and makes developing PTSD far more likely. The theory is outlined by a far more articulate writer than me here
http://abortionhurts.blogspot......e-out.html
You might also like to examine her explanation of how humans are programmed against violence and killing. She has looked through Army research to find data for post traumatic stress disorder.
And from psychopathy research we know that bullies can spot vulnerable people from their very walk without them opening their mouths.
I think all these factors come together and none of them are a conscious decision to remain ‘embittered’ or to even think that way. Being bitter after all the hurts is natural – it is amazing we have strength to continue moving towards light and healing after such experiences. It would definitely be easier to remain at a low place.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 9:11pm
style1 says:
Well for the last couple of days..I was feeling ‘verbittert’ …interesting post Libele..
and after working around the house all day.. I went to the sunbed.. and then the grocery.. and I turned heads.. I felt good again..I felt like me… I needed a bit of that male energy coming my way… bitter not me.. I’m hot..
I haven’t lost it.. I’ve found it! LOL!b
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 9:19pm
PInow says:
From where I stand, there is NOTHING normal about the event and / or events caused by psychopaths. In my case, my life was physically (verbally) threatened, and I know so many bloggers have noted the same. So, in my particular case, PTSD seems to “fit” better.
I am not in favor of the PTED, though, because it suggests just that: normalcy of the absolutely astonishing experience that resembles PTSD quite a lot. PTSD is diagnosed in rape victims and in victims of incest and in war and trauma survivors. Have we not survived a war? have we not continued to try and explain to peers just how and why our situation is different from “normal break-up” and even “normal abusive relationship”. Ok, there is nothing normal about an abusive relationship, but I think it was Donna who said in one of the articles that the sole significant qualifier that unites all of our perpetrators is pathological lying and manipulation. This has threatened me to the core of who I was, and it turned out to be life threatening not only on a physical but especially on an emotional level.
When I read some posts, I almost wish I can report that I was beaten up, screamed at, ignored… This we can feel and experience as evil… Nope, I lived in a perfect lie.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 9:53pm
keensight says:
Dear Pollyannanomore -
Thank you so much for this last post about CPTSD that you wrote. It validates so much of what I was trying to convey
about it in a much more descriptive and succint way. Thanks for the link!
As regards abortion, I hope for the day when there is never any need or desire to terminate a life, based upon the premise that we care enough about human beings to educate and nurture them so that they will never find it necessary
to contemplate that as a choice.
Until that time arrives, I pray that people are more aware of
the dynamics underlying what to some is only a divisive issue.
Reading about young mothers disposing of newborns or infants like trash is very distressing.
Addressing the underlying causes for this that you mention in this post are precisely what is needed to bring about awareness and change. Great post!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:06pm
Inquirente says:
A perfect lie can be so much more damaging, because it is hidden within your being. And when anyone tries to point it out to you, based on what outsiders might see, it is masked and there are no physical injuries to point to.
That is frustrating for those who see it and can’t get thru to the one being abused.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:12pm
PInow says:
Thank you for your validation. you are so right, Inquirente
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
THank you, Dr. Leedom for a thought-provoking article.
I think that the a problem exists with the formal definition of PSTD, if it requires a “life threatening” situation as a trigger. I’m not sure who would be the arbiter of that definition, since a lot of things would fit that category from a psychological level, if not necessarily a legal one. For example, anything that a child feels is a threat of abandonment would be perceived as life-threatening, just as the loss of a job to a person who is living at the edge of homelessness might also be perceived that way.
My own perspective on trauma has been that it is a breach of boundaries that is felt so profoundly that it 1) causes the person who experience it to lose their previous identity or orientation in relationship with the world, and/or 2) to lose control of their emotional reactions.
That leaves a lot of latitude, and it includes very “minor” things as well as life-threatening ones. Personally, if I’m in a situation where circumstances a person’s behavior drives me to tears, rage or fear that overrides my reasoning ability, I feel like my boundaries have been insulted and I immediately start protecting myself from that person or circumstance. (It’s the reason I basically avolid movies by Stephen Speilberg, after E.T. made me feel so emotionally jerked around.) To group this kind of experience with traumas may sound trivial, but I think it keeps me aware of the mechanism of trauma and more alert to more significant threats.
As far as bitterness goes, my take on it is that bitterness is old unresolved anger. Which means that the trauma processing stopped at a relatively early stage.
Again to go back to my own case, I was bitter all my life, although completely in denial about it. Because my trauma processing stopped at denial. Things that happened to me “didn’t matter.” My recovery strategy was to ignore them and keep forging on. As a result, I had most of the symptoms that Dr. Lindman describes, but I think this is because unprocessed trauma has two main effects. One is to keep us preoccupied with the details of the denied threat, and the other is to keep a level of background anxiety running pretty constantly unless we’re in the “relieved” aspect of the addiction cycle.
When faced with research efforts such as this, I sometimes feel like a bit of a broken record when I keep referring to the stages of trauma processing as a model for understanding these symptoms. And I understand the scientific research model for identifying a symptom or cluster of symptoms and then trying to correlate it with something. But I still get a little frustrated.
The Kubler-Ross grief model, adapted to experiences that threaten identity or fundamental beliefs about the nature of the world, makes sense of the experiences of trauma processing — from the first blow to the ultimate resolution. Bitterness, obsessive thinking, regressive fugue states, chronic distrust or defensiveness, and all the other states that are so commonly represented here on Love Fraud, are symptoms of progressive trauma processing.
That said, I do think that bitterness can be a sign of an extremely difficult therapeutic situation. That is, people who have a level of distrust or despair that discourages them from seeking help to resolve traumas that are causing major life dysfunction.
I have an observation that doesn’t qualify as a theory, but seems to keep popping up in my mind. That is the divide in post-traumatic types between the kind that have fast access to anger vs. the type that have fast access to fear. In a way this is the shark vs. carp divide or the dependent vs. independent personality disorders or the addictive vs. codependent differential. I think that bitterness is an isolating symptom, and to the extent that a person experiences it, they will retract from dependencies and intimacy.
At the far extreme, that may mean sociopathy. But bitterness can also be found in codependents like me, who expect little and give much, but also maintain a private scorecard of all the ways I’ve been wronged by the person I’m involved with.
For me, getting out of denial about my foundational traumas gave me a chance to resolve them and the patterns of bitterness pretty much dissolved along the way. But of course, first I had to elevate bitterness to an acceptable response, instead of something I didn’t admit to, and then get righteously angry. That is, go through the angry phase that is so pivotal to our healing.
As others have mentioned, the definition of bitterness in this research is not clear. The symptoms listed look more like PSTD in my expanded definition of trauma. The reference to a “normal” trauma is particularly odd. If it shakes our world, it might be normal to someone else, but we still have to process it to get back to center and move on. We might be able to process a little insult in a moment, but if it rattles us, we still have to go through resolving it so we’re not carrying it in the future.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:59pm
pollyannanomore says:
Thanks Keeninsight
I don’t think I am articulate at all but did some research into PTSD over the last few years and found the links incredible. I wonder how many of us actually stayed longer because of these triggering symptoms and what that told us about who we were at that time ie not strong enough and can’t cope alone.
PInow – you said “Have we not survived a war?” AMEN – that sums it up perfectly. We have indeed survived a war waged for many years with adversaries who pretended to be our friends and lovers – how can you possibly win in that kind of war, when the enemies are not even clearly identified but instead function as Trojan horses – gifts with death inside them?
You also note the difficulty we have in telling our stories to others – they don’t understand why we couldn’t just leave and why it bothers us so much compared with other breakups. It’s the betrayal I think. Betrayal makes the difference.
Inquirente – I like your pointing out that our wounds are invisible – this makes it incredibly difficult to explain to others. I actually at one point begged him to just hit me so “I have a reason to leave you.” I equated danger with physical violence and didn’t understand about worse dangers than that. The danger he inflicted damaged my soul and my core – bruises heal with time but I don’t really know how to heal these hurts except by talking it out and writing out my story to understand it and by learning as much as I can.
Kathleen – I understand what you are saying. I am finding the same – that all the hurts I thought I had mourned and come to terms with are bubbling up from the past and demanding attention and salvation. It is both a gift and a curse. I didn’t want to have to deal with them, but also recognise that because I hadn’t dealt with them I married a dangerous man. I don’t have a choice now. It is agonising to realise all the ways I have been abandoned over the years but also extremely freeing – I was so worried about him abandoning me and he did it every day in hundreds of little ways. I was avoiding the original abandonment and I can’t avoid it anymore. Thirty years of avoidance is enough – time to look at what lies beneath and admit how much it hurts still.
Thankyou everyone for your acceptance, listening, validation, understanding and encouragement. This is such a hard journey to take after everything else.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:59pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Pollyannanomore,
You wrote: “This is such a hard journey to take after everything else.” I just want to say that it’s hard, but fascinating and rewarding and joyous.
I’ve never felt in my life the way I felt when I got serious about healing myself. I still can’t describe it, except it was something like those old adventure stories about a safari into deepest Africa. Tough and harrowing, but wildly exciting and rewarding, and every step of the way I became more convinced that I was capable of more than I’d ever imagined. And like those great adventurers, I know that I’d come home completely changed, relaxed about things that made other people flap, insightful about things that used to fog my mind, and just somehow broader in all my perspectives. And that’s actually the way it turned out.
So what I’m trying to say to you is, even though you may not be i the mood for this right now, you will be once you get started, I promise.
And if you haven’t got a good therapist already, go looking for one who deals with PSTD or childhood abuse issues. They know this path.
Namaste. The healing spirit in me salutes the healing spirit in you.
Kathy
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:20am
Twice Betrayed says:
In my own experience, I find bitterness can creep in when I take my focus off my beliefs and values and place it on obtaining justice on my terms. [ I do find great satisfaction in seeing my x reap what he sows.] But, my greatest peace and satisfaction comes when I keep focused on my values and goals and leave these p’s up to God to deal with. Sure, I am wounded and I do allow moments of bitterness to get me….but, by trying to keep my focus on my beliefs and goals the bitterness dies down and I heal more and more.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:08am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Amen, TB.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:23am
citykitty617 says:
The thing I am most bitter about is my prickly skin. I have been called naive and too trusting always. I brushed this off – thinking why be so cautious…
Sometimes people with a positive attitude who always want to find the good in everyone can not comprehend evil. Now that it has slapped me upside the head, I know it well and watch for it everywhere. That is my greatest loss.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 4:04am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Keensight,
How?
Easy:
1. Remove first flat tire &
2. ease car down onto doughnut.
3. Remove 2nd flat tire,
4. but leave jack in place.
5. Check Garmin for the nearest Treadquarters.
6. Proceed by cab to Treadquarters.
7. Cash in on road hazard insurance.
8. Return by cab to Treadquarters.
I was lucky that it was the two right tires, front and back. This made changing the tires relatively safe. There are tons of nit picking details that make the procedure safer and more efficient. That’s why practical life lessons are so important for adolescents and teens. My daughter, already a very competant person, learned quite a bit that day.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:04am
pollyannanomore says:
Kathleen – thanks … I caught the taste of that inspiration in the wind and it sounded so familiar and yet so foreign – perhaps travelling into unfamiliar territories is a good analogy. It is like a longing for a shore somewhere that only the heart knows well and yet it has never seen except perhaps in a dream.
I really hope I get to be a woman in the space you are in – lots of wisdom, hope, gratitude, compassion, empathy, confidence, expansiveness … sometimes I do worry that I might end up embittered and alone – I certainly have seen models for that response to inconstant men.
The theme of childhood has been coming up lots and lots through all thinking lately and I was pressuring myself a great deal so I made a deal with myself to put it on the backburner for now and just be mindful of when it comes up but not to stress myself more right now. Things are coming to end and my health is not good because of the stress – it is hard to cope emotionally and just get through the days at the moment.
It will get better I know but it’s hard right now – lots of cleansing crying. I read somewhere that the emotions have to catch up with the logical thinking as emotion and logic get separated in these relationships so bouts of crying sometimes happens after big periods of learning and breakthroughs. That resonates a lot with me and makes me feel much better about the upset.
I will find a good therapist … again … but am not in the humor for conversing to find a good one at the moment. Definitely soon though.
TB You are right … when I start thinking justice, I start getting angry and thinking about revenge. I have seen my ’shadow’ side and it ain’t pretty
City Kitty … I stand with you in those thoughts. I loved my trusting heart – it was something I held up to the uncaring of the world and said ‘See … I am not afraid to be vulnerable’. But now I am. I got called those things too.
LOL @ slapped upside the head by evil – I am not laughing at what happened to you but that’s a beautiful turn of phrase
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:13am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Ox Drover,
“My little friend.”
You crack me up! We were on a way to a reenactment, and had reproduction weapons with us. One of my niggling concerns was that someone would see the gun case and think they were worth stealing or raising a stink over. I was very glad the State Trooper did not hang around, because I wasn’t in the mood to open the case and explain the contents to a knuckle dragger.
Good Samaritans are very nice folks. I bear ‘em no malice, but I’m glad when I don’t need them. Being independent feels more comfortable.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:13am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Oh -
8. Return by cab FROM Tread quarters.
9. Put the tires back on.
If you need details, get hands on lessons. There are a lot of picayune details to this type of maneuver. Some of it’s specific to your vehicle.
As general safety precautions:
1. Always put the doughnut under the rear axle, then leave the front axle jacked.
2. Always set your parking brake and start your emergency flashers before starting.
3. Pay attention. It’s noisy on the highway. Those “good Samaritans” can get inside your personal space before you hear them. That can be pretty scary, and you don’t want to clock a State Trooper with a tire iron. I imagine that would end up on your permanent record.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:21am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Here’ my thought for the day:
Remember that many of us were selected as targets because of our competencies as well as our easy going dispositions. After all, the Cluster B needed a caretaker. Someone incompetent wouldn’t have been as handy to them as we were.
Sure, we may feel stupid for having let ourselves get used, but we wouldn’t have been useful if we weren’t capable people.
Catalog your strengths folks. None of you are incompetent. Far from it.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:27am
kim frederick says:
Kathleen Hawk, could you please explain whatyoumean by a “regressive fugue state”. As always, I find your post informative and inspiring.
I’m not sure how I feel about the lable PTES. A part of me believes that it is not a disorder but a normal response to a crazymaking environment. However, I do believe that it should run its course. I know that sometimes people get stuck there. I’m sure the profile fit me for years. I knew I was bitter and angry, and dissillusioned. I over-reacted was defensiveand frustrated. I didn’t want to feel that way, but it isn’t something you can wish away. Eventually it seemed to fade and I’m doing much better now.
God bless you, and all of us here at LF.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear EC,
What kind of reenactments do you do? What period? We do pre-1840 Arkansas.
Yea, “my little friend” has saved my arse 3 times, literally, I think all 3 were life threatening, where without my friend I would have been totally vunerable and no other help available. One an attempted robbery where I worked, 1 broken down on the freeway at night, and 1 camping in the Wyoming “outback” with my kids.
In areas where I can’t (for legal reasons) have my friend, I carry EASY OFF OVEN CLEANER, SPRAY LYE IN A CAN—it is the equivalent of battery acid in a can, though lye is a base instead of an acid, but it is just as corrosive as acid, and would instantly cause someone to lose interest in you, and gain interest in finding a supply of water to get it off their face (for all the good that would do if a water hose was not immediately available) If someone is trying to hurt me, I don’t play nice and after one warning would do my best to fatally injure them. fortunately I have never had to actually pull the trigger or purposely spray someone in the face with something likely to cause permanent blindness, but I am prepared to do either if my safety is in question.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:32am
keensight says:
Elizabeth Conley -
Thank you for the edification about tire changing.
You WERE lucky that they were both on the RIGHT side.
I don’t have a Garmin, but I’m sure now gonna get one.
Thanks for filling me in on the picayune details of this
procedure. Not knowing what model of vehicle yours is
compared to mine is a good point.
Could you please explain what a REENACTMENT is?
What are REPRODUCTION WEAPONS and what do you use
them for?
AND is a STATE TROOPER referred to as a, KNUCKLE
DRAGGER, where you are from!!!!????
I’m feeling almost as deflated as your tires just understanding
your lingo, but I don’t think I misunderstood having to CLOCK
A STATE TROOPER WITH A TIRE IRON!!!!
GOOD GRIEF!!!! What the heck is all that about?!!!
GARMIN sounds like a great idea as well as having that cellphone with you. You sound like a very competent person.
I can’t even imagine a socio getting near you with the what you know.
I’m glad it turned out well for you, but for my mind I’d feel
glad if a State Trooper showed up and offered assistance
without that cellphone and Garmin in tow.
As far as Oxy’s “little friend” goes, I don’t bellieve the word handgun is a dirty word, so no need to speak using pet names
for them. I don’t see them as a bad idea for women and even
men traveling in remote areas, just as long as they are licensed and permitted and the person has no criminal history
or mental instability that might lead to a bonafide tragedy.
Thanks for a very enlightening post about staying safe while
on the road. You’ve given me much to think about, including
getting roadside travelers protection. I guess you’ll never know when you need a tow!
I sure don’t have your skills or added protection, but I’m going to think seriously about just what it means to have them.
God Bless
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:49am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Civil War.
We are a Marine Unit. We play Union when it’s called for, Union when it’s called for. Whichever is needed.
We are in VA. When we go South they need extra people to represents Yanks. When we go North they need extra people to represent Rebels. We don’t care. We enjoy living history events of all types. None of us are partisan about the Civil War. Reenacting is expensive. It’s only a couple hundred more to be prepared to represent either side in the conflict. No big deal.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:54am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Keen sight, I gotta get some work done today.
Here’s the high points – Briefly:
Most law Officers have ingrained behaviors that they believe are clever, but actually tend to cause unnecessary conflict. Many of them are indeed “knuckle draggers”. It’s part of their subculture. There are wonderful exceptions, for which we are all indebted to. Because so many of them are natural born nuisances, getting rid of them quickly and graciously is my preferred tactic. They can make any citizen’s day needlessly complicated on a whim. The less time they hang around, the less chance they’ll become whimsical and ruin my day over something utterly trifling.
There is rarely a NEED to clock ANYONE with a tire iron, but if s/he comes tiptoeing up behind you while you’re focused on changing a tire under dangerous circumstances, an instinctive defensive reaction on your part could end badly for the approaching good Samaritan. This is the reason why I suggest you remain alert. You can’t hear someone approaching you under those circumstances. Many misunderstandings can be avoided if you look up from your work every 20 seconds or so.
I have by no means shared with you even a 10th of the picayune details needed to change tires by the side of the road efficiently. If you really want to know how, you need hands on lessons.
Reenacting is participating in Reenactments. Reenactments are living History events where participants replay the events of a Historically significant incident. It’s a popular activity among Historians and Home schoolers, because it is one of the most effective ways to learn and teach History.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:17am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Reproduction Weapons – Weapons that are exact working copies of museum pieces from the era in question.
A reproduction black powder firearm is technically a “gun”, but people don’t generally use them to roll 7-11s. It’s a pain in the @ss to answer questions about such “weapons” when you’d really rather be finished changing the tire and several miles down the highway. They’re not weapons per se, they’re just toys for overgrown kids like myself.
I enjoy marksmanship and reenactments. My beloved muzzle loader, Deborah, is more sporting equipment than weapon.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:30am
Inquirente says:
Elizabeth,
Thanks for your thought for the day!
“Remember that many of us were selected as targets because of our competencies as well as our easy going dispositions. After all, the Cluster B needed a caretaker. Someone incompetent wouldn’t have been as handy to them as we were. Sure, we may feel stupid for having let ourselves get used, but we wouldn’t have been useful if we weren’t capable people.”
True insight to my niece and her situation. The emotional manipulation by this S was unbelievable however, not at all due to our niece being incompetent, just that he was saying all the right things. He had many people fooled and was able to take $$$ from many of them. He promised her a life of love, wealth and children. The Oct. 28 article by M.L. Gallagher “He will call it Love” brought shivers up my spine! The S actually threatened my husband and I with ‘Agents’ coming to visit us and brothers coming to ruin our vacations. He manipulated the family to believe in him, they became ‘his family’ and we were the nasty whistle blowers who created havoc in his and their life.
So no one really knows just how he threatened them but we do know it had to be. It is so convulted like I said, I am in awe of all of you out there that overcome these situations.
I want to remain a warrior against this evil and will continue to learn more and educate my extended family and nieces and nephews that this evil does exist.
Have a great day!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:55am
keensight says:
ELizabeth Conley -
Thanks for the detailed explanations. Some good practical
information there on changing tires as well. I studied Civil
War History in undergraduate school, but I can see how
reenacting various battles would be a great way to illustrate
and remember the facts about the various battles and where
they took place historically. Much easier to remember as well,
as I’m sure I”ve forgotten a great deal of what I was taught
over the years since.
Sounds like fun, especially since no one gets hurt.
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
As far as the Knuckle Draggers go…the one that lives directly
behind me has never been anything but nice and polite over the years.
You make a good point about remaining aware of your surroundings at all times though. That I definitely do!
BTW Virginia is absolutey beautiful. I would love to have a place on acreage there one day. So many beautiful, historic
places to live.
Take care.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:04am
Matt says:
Elizabeth Conley:
The next time I take a road trip, I want you with me. Living in NYC, I drive so seldom, that I actually have to watch how people use the self-service pumps before pumping gas myself. Quite frankly, I wish they would put the gas tank cap smack in the middle of the back bumper on all cars, so I don’t have to try to figure out whether the car I am renting is a right-side or left-side gas tank. The hours of entertainment I have provided gas station attendants watching me pull up, try to stretch the hose, give up, have to move the car and repeat, are incalculable.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:10pm
ErinBrock says:
Matt:
I can solve that gas tank location for you……..compliments of my kids!!!
GOD KNOWS HOW THEY KNEW THIS????
If you look on the gas gaige on the dash…..there is a little gas pump picture……depending on which side the picture is located, in relation to the gage picture on the dash…..THATS THE SIDE THE GAS TANK IS ON!!!!
So if it shows picture/gage/nothing…your tank is on the left drivers side.
If it shows nothing/gage/picture….your tank is on the right side.
I was so blown away when the kids pointed that out to me, when I was in the same dang quandry making a fool of myself at the pump….or the familiar scenario of getting out of car to find the tank…..
EC…I love your independance….I’m so glad there are women out there that don’t claim helpless! GOOD FOR YOU!!!
My mother used to tell me growing up….if you never learn how to mow the lawn, you will never be required to do it……
WHAT she forgot to tell me was…if you marry a helpless ass hole you better learn how to do everything for yourself or you’ll be stuck!!!!
After the S left…we got a huge storm….the kids were gone, it was superbowl sunday and I wanted to go somewhere…..Well…it was time to familiarize myself with the snowblower……
WHAT A HOOT!!!! I get to the top of my driveway, looking back at the one pass I had made in the 4 feet of snow…..as proud as ever…..gloating and panting,……as I turned the thing around to make my way back down the drive……I slipped and was so afraid to let go of it that I allowed it to drag me all the way down the driveway on my ass on the ice!!!! Talk about embarrasing, as a neighbor drove by and stopped to witness this sight…….
BUT I DID IT!!!!!!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:32pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
kim, you asked about regressive fugue states.
As usual, I have taking some liberties with official psychiatric terminology in this definition. You can look up fugue states and find what the professionals mean when they say that. But here’s what I mean.
First a definition of “states.” States are kind of weather conditions in our mind. We may be in a contented and peaceful state. We may be in a resentful and irritable state. A state doesn’t mean that it’s constant. It’s just a description of the internal weather at a given moment, or how you were for most of last year.
“Fugue states” are so named in reference to fugue or fugal themes in music, particularly classical. These are themes that may recur over and over in a piece. A simple example is well-known Pachelbel’s Canon, which uses a melodic theme 28 times in different orchestrations.
Psychological fugue states are not so varied. They are psychological states to which we return over and over, typically in time of great stress, or when triggered by PSTD-type situations.
In my family, my sister, my son and I all have a particular fugue state that shows up when we are faced with tasks or issues that make us feel intimidated or overwhelmed. We start obsessing on how we have no one we can depend on, that all our helpers have abandoned us and we are alone in the world. We get deeply blue, weepy and/or angry with people who try to comfort us or help us, and are more likely than other times to try to restart relationships with ex-lovers.
I saw this one over and over again during my recovery period, and I recognized it as the fundamental cause of my willingness to let my ex back into my life again, several times, after I thought I had convinced myself to get rid of him. Later when he was really gone, I used to call it the “lugubrious rut.” My sister who was still drinking for part of my recovery (and was dealing with the death of her son), used to call me late at night going on and on about how untrustworthy the world was and how she had lost everything she ever loved. I didn’t drink, but I felt essentially the same.
All fugue states are, I believe, essentially regressive. That is, they return us to an emotional condition reflects our reaction to a much earlier trauma. And traumas themselves tend to regress us emotionally to more childlike states.
And I think this particular fugue state that I’m describing is one that is really familiar to many people here on this site. It is essential a condition of feeling unloved, abandoned, betrayed by the world, existentially alone, and helpless to change the situation.
I believe it is a classic manifestation of deep abandonment issues that go back much farther than the present circumstances. And one of the reason we are so resistant to attempts to reason us out of it is that it is also the effect of a certain neural pathway with associated brain chemicals that was carved out during some earlier trauma, and is our default reaction to a certain type of circumstances that remind us of the trauma. (How that for a nifty explanation for emotional PSTD reactions? The reaction sets the tone, and then we can fill in the details with whatever circumstances happen to trigger it, never linking it at all the the original cause.)
One of the best things about fugue states is that we can eventually come to recognize them. My sister and I in a famous (to us) telephone call were discussing our tendency to fall into this particular rut, and I had the inspiration to call the state lugubrious. If you don’t know the definition of the word, look it up. It stuck us both as so funny that we almost fell off our respective chairs laughing about it. Ever after we were able to recognize it.
And at that point, because we both doing our own research on psychological issues, we figured out about the neural pathways, the brain chemicals, and the fact that is was a very old reaction. Possibly modeled by our mother, who was depressive, but more likely by our father who was basically a non-drinking alcoholic type who wallowed in his emotional blaming, rages and self-justifications.
We both went to work on searching out our first triggering event (when was the first time we felt that way), but more importantly, we began consciously seeking ways to change our brain chemicals and seek out other reactions when we were triggered in this way. One way was just to call each other and get the subject changed. (And to this day, our conversations often start with “Hi, I’m calling because I need to change my brain chemicals.”)
And I think that a lot of us use Love Fraud the same way. We come here to get out of our fugue states, to change our brain chemicals. Which is a great thing, because these fugue states are quite literally circular ruts that keep us from processing and learning. Except, of course, for the opportunities they provide us to get to know these patterns, learn why we’re really reacting that way, and begin to retrain our minds to respond to these stimuli in more positive ways.
As an example, when I feel this one coming on, I get up and go outside for some fresh air and exercise, which usually clears my head sufficiently that I can build a plan of attack for whatever looked so intimidating before.
I know this was a long answer (as usual), but I hope it makes sense. If it does, you’ll be able to see fugue states kick in here at Love Fraud, particularly when something disruptive happens on the site. People who were pretty rational suddenly becoming highly reactive and “stuck” in the reaction, no matter what anyone says to try to reason them out of it. If anything is going to break through a fugue state, it usual is something that changes the focus to an entirely different and less triggering topic. The best thing of all is laughter, but it can be really hard to make a person in an emotional rut laugh. Anther thing that can work is acknowledgement and taking over the state in an amplified way. (“I totally understand why you feel that way. I really hate this man, and I am going to call my cousin Frank to take up his offer to knock his guy off right now.”)
That is, of course, if you have reason to meddle at all. Here on Love Fraud, we actually do have reason to meddle, since a person in a fugue state, especially if it involves attacking or blaming other people, can stimulate other sensitive people into falling into their own fugue states. And then we have arguments and people dropping off, etc. Which may not ultimately be a bad thing. Eventually we all need to be desensitized and/or find better responses to these things that throw us into PSTD reactions. But I know it’s all of our preferences to be mutually supportive and to keep sharing the insights that keep us moving forward.
So that’s the definition plus a typical Kathy brain dump. I hope it was worth the read.
Kathy
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:36pm
Matt says:
ErinBrock:
“Oh Sweet Mystery of Life” mystery #104 is now solved. Thank your kids for me.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
EC, your self-sufficiency is awesome. I’m going to create an internal Elizabeth Conley to help me remember details about taking care of myself. “What would EC being telling you about preparing for this?”
Erin, isn’t it wild what our kids know? All those hours on the internet are actually paying off for them, and us. I’m beginning to wonder if college degrees are going to become obsolete. My son, who didn’t go to college because of anxiety issues, is so damned knowledgeable about everything that I’m starting to get jealous.
And unfortunately I don’t have neighbors to cheer on my icy driveway butt-racing. Mine is about an eighth of a mile, all blacktopped and parts of which are something like 40-degree slopes. I’ve slipped a few times on my way down to the mailbox. Fortunately it curves, and I can steer myself (?) into a tree to avoid landing in the road.
I spend a lot of money on snow-plowing every year. I wish I could find a snowblower to handle this thing. Maybe I’ll buy myself a plow for Christmas I could strap on the front of my SUV.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
OxDrover says:
Kathy,
Great post! A thing that it made me flash on that I would like to add too, is that NOT all people who come to love fraud or DV shelters etc. are or ever were in a healthy state in terms of them themselves being abusers.
It is quite common (and the professionals on this site I have no doubt will back me up on this) for two abusers, two people with personality disorders to “hook up” and to play “musical chairs” moving alternately between abuser and victim and rescuer. AA calls this “codependent” and Dr. Eric Berne calls it the game playing. Which is also why cops hate DV calls because sometimes if a guy is beating the crap out of his wife (today) and they try to stop him, she will turn on him and defend the abuser (that day) but you will find that on alternate days, she is hitting him, or acting in a passive-aggressive way to “provoke” him, and the cycle of mutual abuse continues.
Sometimes people are also addicted to teh drama and if they stop contact, the drama stops and they can’t endure the resulting “peace” which they perceive as boredom. I think to some extent we all got hooked into the drama “triangle” of victim-rescuer-persecutor. It is just that sometimes people cannot easily give up that “drama-rama.” They may do it with friends, family or lovers, or even their children.
The tendency for this is not “all bad” as humans need something “interesting” in their lives to feel alive (according to Dr. Maslow but the thing is that if it is taken to a dysfunctional level it causes all kinds of problems in relationships. Dr. Leedom calls this a need for excitement, risk taking, etc. It is the basis of gossip which can be devestating. It is why we watch the news and crime shows.
If we are needy of “high level excitement” we need to channel our need for this into sports or other things that are not destructive to self or others. One of the things that Dr. Leedom has suggested as a vulnerability for us (victims) is that we like excitement more than some others. We (as a group) tend to focus on the exciting man (whatever is exciting to us) as a focus for picking out a mate etc.
Fortunately for me, my “high excitement” fix was filled with my late husband’s flying, high intellegence, interest in a wide variety of things, etc. which gave each of us a “fix” where the other was concerned. Not that he was any “perfect man” or that I think he was (he would have driven most women crazy) but I adored him, and vice versa. We used to joke that I was the only woman west of teh Atlantic that would have had him for long, and He was the only man east of the Pacific that would have had me! LOL
In many ways he didn’t find most women a fit because he was a high excitement man and I was a good fit for him because I would be interested in doing things many other women wouldn’t have been. I was interested in things many other women wouldnn’t have been interested in. He admired me for my sense of adventure and independence and vice versa. But WE were a fit better than either of us had ever been before.
He was interested in an d proud of my accomplishments and vice versa. After he died, my life became a VOID because my “cheering section” was gone. That made me totally vulnerable to the P when he came on to me and seemed to think I was wonderful and exciting, and he seemed wonderful and exciting, intelligent etc. Little did I know what I had fallen off into until i was dependent on his “cheer leading” and he started to devalue me.
Instead of being my OWN cheering section, instead of validating my own worth, I had depended on my husband to do that, then the P BF. Now, I am learning to validate myself, my own worth, my own accomplishments and my own competencies. Plus, I am learning that I don’t have to be perfect to be OK! When others compliment me I no longer devalue that, and when others put me down, I not longer accept that at face value….sometimes those folks have an ULTERIOR MOTIVE. DUH!?! LOL Or they can be mistaken. Ultimately I have had to learn to listen to both compliments and criticism with a FILTER through my own assessment, and not swallow either of the WHOLE, accepting what others say without reality checkinig.
Hope that makes some sense.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:48pm
style1 says:
Inquirente says:
A perfect lie can be so much more damaging, because it is hidden within your being. And when anyone tries to point it out to you, based on what outsiders might see, it is masked and there are no physical injuries to point to.
That is frustrating for those who see it and can’t get thru to the one being abused.
……..
Inquirente,
This is it exactly.. it distorts our reality..
and yes, we are chosen for what we have and our kindness.. they play us in the most evil way… and it hurts us deep into our belief systems and distorts our outlook on the world…
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:53pm
kim frederick says:
Kathy, thanks so mush for your response. In other words a regressive frugue state is similar to what Freud called the compullsion to repeat. I can certainly identify.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:21pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Kim, it’s tightly related to that concept for sure. The idea of going back over and over to an unfinished scene to try to complete it in a way that supports our identity and our growth.
Oxy made a point about the source of abusive behavior. And I also think it’s worth noting that abusive behavior tends to emerge from these states. In NLP, we call them being “unconscious.” We stop relating effectively with objective reality and start projecting our state on reality, interpreting it in terms of our “unfinished” drama.
This can support the victim-rescuer-perpetrator group dramas, especially with family of origin or surrogates for the family of origin. It can also cause us to look for surrogates for the initial perpetrators of our traumas in order to complete (resolve) the unfinished drama in a more positive way. And to unblock the developmental path that went on hold until I could get this wound healed.
One of the things I thought about after sending you the post on fugue states was how likely I have been to look for “strong” rescuer in my intimate relationships. What I am actually looking for is a surrogate parent to assist me in completing/resolving the old trauma. This time, I think, I will find the compassionate support I need to deal with the whatever narcissistic wound it was that was never healed and resolved.
I find this whole way of looking at things very helpful in understanding a lot of the mechanics of dysfunction, of otherwise inexplicable interactions with other people (particularly people who tend to get captured in their own “unconscious” or fugue-ish states), and of some of the mechanisms of healing.
Thanks for the connection to Freud’s description. It really helped me to pull together my thoughts.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:59pm
JaneSmith says:
Elizabeth,
You said…”Bitter is taking the abuse of cluster Bs personally for the rest of your life. It ain’t personal. It just feels that way at first.”
You are so correct! What you wrote is so valuable, so important in the healing progress. “It ain’t personal.”
Predators (cluster Bs, parasites, humanoids,etc..) do what they do and they do it to any vulnerable person. Any person who is susceptible to their overt and subtle manipulations, pressures they apply to get their selfish, primitive desire fixes.
Hey, I’ll raise my hand in the affirmative to once being an easy target for exploitation. Not any longer. Like you, I have no illusions. I receive reality checks often to remind me that personal safety and welfare can be a precarious situation.
So, like you, I demonstrate sensible caution at times when it is necessary. And I think a little bit of skepticism, a healthy bit, should be part of our perspective also.
And I’m somewhat skeptical about the above article. Why is it that the mental health institution is so dead set on placing people into tidy categories? Into neat, little boxes instead of realizing that those of us who have functioning consciences are much more complex that we are given credit for.
Perplexes me. But I’m an obstinate, private broad so the concept of discussing my dirty laundry, my deep dark secrets and experiences with a therapist gives me the willies!…haha.
Not that there’s anything wrong with therapy by a caring and wise professional. Just never even contemplated it for me.
Guess I prefer slogging down that bumpy, pot-hole ridden hard rode. Stumbling and falling periodically. Ripping a big hole in my favorite jeans (it’s in fashion, so they tell me). Keeping a sharp eye on the gloomy forest to my right and on the vast planes to my left. But my focus on the path in front of me. Just keep moving forward. That’s the direction to go.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:31pm
OxDrover says:
Janie,
I think the Polltically correct version of “everyone is born a blank slate and anything bad they do is because they were not nurtured, or were abused as a child, or whatever problems they had because they didn’t have a perfect childhood” is so much clap trap. It has been going on for a long time and it is back to my article about the “Emperor’s New clothes…Love Fraud version” in that because it is not politically correct to say “some people are just evil, not because they have been abused but because they CHOOSE to be this way…they have no conscience and this is NOT because someone abused them.” PERIOD.
People are taught that “deep down everyone has some good in them” BALDERDASH! Is my opinion, not everyone does have good deep down in them, they can ONLY FAKE IT!
Someone a while ago on this blog said “He’s such a nice guy, when he is not robbing banks.”
Yea, he may appear to be a “nice guy” but if he robs banks he is a BAD MAN ALL THE TIME he just appears good once in a while, maybe even most of the time, but if he robs banks, he is a BAD GUY. LOL
That’s what our Ps in most cases were “Mr. Prince Charming” when they weren’t abusing folks. DUH!?!
And like some folks would say about the bank robber, “He contributes to the community chest, and he shovels the poor old neighbor’s walk way so she won’t fall, so he’s a nice guy MOST OF THE TIME. NO! NO!!!! A THOUSAND TIMES NO.
Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but these are not “mistakes” they are DELIBERATE CHOICES.
A “mistake” is when you don’t see the stop sign and you run through it. .A “DELIBERATE” is when you see the sign and decide to run through it.
When people CHOOSE to DELIBERATELY do BAD ACTS of an abusive nature, to cheat, lie, steal, defraud, etc they are BAD PEOPLE and to me it doesn’t make a bit of difference if they had a poor childhood or a perfect one, it is a CHOICE.,
I don’t want people in my life who make that kind of choices, even every so often and are “nice” the rest of the time. LOL
MY DELIBERATE CHOICE.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 4:07pm
amber says:
Oxy…this couldn’t be more true….
“Yea, he may appear to be a “nice guy” but if he robs banks he is a BAD MAN ALL THE TIME he just appears good once in a while, maybe even most of the time, but if he robs banks, he is a BAD GUY. LOL”
Over the weekend I was approached by a man. He was in town from San Fransisco for the weekend and told me that he comes down here on a regular basis for work. He then pretty much propositioned me to be his “friend” whenever he is in town. He said, “I’ll take care of you, and you can take care of me.” Can we say SHOCK?!?!? He then went on to tell me that he was MARRIED! And I was even more shocked! How could he be having this conversation with me if he was married!?!?! Well, I know the answer to that…my EX S was a married man too. So I politely told him that there was no way in hell I was interested in what he was suggesting. He then counteracted by saying…and I quote…”YOU KNOW I”M A REALLY NICE GUY AND WOULD TREAT YOU GOOD.” And I looked at him and I don’t think he was ready for what was going to come back. I said…”REALLY?? A NICE GUY???? REALLY?? Well if you’re such a nice guy…then WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE?!?!? NOTHING NICE ABOUT THAT!! I have serious reservations about any guy that has to TELL me that they’re a nice guy. And furthermore TREAT ME GOOD?!?!?!? PAAHHHHH…..CHEATERS DON’T TREAT ANYONE GOOD.” He sat there with a blank stare for a moment and said, “I see YOU have some serious issues with it, so I’ll stop bothering you.” So yes, you see…I must be the bad person, rainning on his little parade…poor guy was just looking to have a little fun…and I’m the one with the issues?!?!?! LOL!!! I couldn’t believe it…but I guess I can..they’re everywhere!!
Thanks for your post..it was perfect!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:00pm
witsend says:
Amber,
OMG….If this guy wasn’t so sick it would be an absolute HOOT!
I am really a nice guy, and I would treat you good…
Heres what he didn’t say:
Even though I am married (possibly w/children), have many responsibilities in my life back home, you will likely not see me on holidays, I won’t be bringing you home to meet my parents obviously, I would love for you to be at my “beck and call” when I am in town, BUT most of all DON’T call me I will call You!!! So sit tight and wait for me to call you….
What is it about this proposal that this guy would think women might find attractive???
Did you want to kick him right in the you know where…..Boy its tempting….Ooops…did I do that??
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:16pm
JaneSmith says:
Oxy,
Very interesting what you wrote. And logical and correct. I concur…;P
There are some people in this world who consider evil to be subjective. That it’s a product of overactive imaginations, or religious fanaticism. Balderdash, indeed!
Folks who fervently deny the existence of evil are either setting themselves up for some bad happenings or they’re the ones doing the bad happenings. Right? I would hazard a theory that these evil denying folks are immoral or amoral. They just don’t compute for me.
I don’t think a person needs to be religious, to devote their lives to religion to be aware that evil incarnate most assuredly exists, running unchecked and rampant upon others and our beautiful planet.
All’s you need is an acceptance of the essential spiritual aspect of humans. Our spiritual selves are much more in tune with foul, evil currents and undercurrents.
Oh, one more thing. I cannot remember (blast it!) the LF member who posted an enlightening article from a blog she reads.
To sum it up, the blogger was quite brilliant in describing the bizarre dynamic on why people tend to exaggerate the minor accomplishments of the usually non-virtuous and scoff, disregard the usually virtuous when they commit some iddy, biddy supposed infraction. Wow, blew my mind. I’m not kidding.
She also said that many people are insecure around virtuous folks because they cause them to feel inferior. That they don’t measure up in some way. Maybe it relieves these insecurities by making a big deal when a virtuous person (who is also human) makes a common mistake, or says, or does something that reveals that they are in no way, shape or form…perfect. That virtuous people screw up too.
I don’t know, but I see the above mentality as twisted, petty and childish. I WANT and NEED to be around, interacting with virtuous people so I can learn. So I can work on being a better person myself. Roit? Roit!
xxooxx…love ya, Oxy pooh!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:23pm
lostingrief says:
witsend…
in the last year of my relationship with the s/p/n, he’d say to me: “why do you still love me? i don’t even call you!” well, i thought, when would you call me, you’re always here in the crib sucking off of me 24/7!!
huh. don’t call me, i’ll call you. we should all collaborate on a book of sociopathisms. they ALL sound alike.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:30pm
witsend says:
lostingrief,
It is funny sometimes how we can put up with so much in our own lives. the nagging thought might be there that something is not right, yet we “let it go”.
Yet sometimes when we see it in written form describing someone elses story or on TV or “however” we see it….
All of a sudden it makes sense and we see it as it really IS abusive behavior.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:46pm
amber says:
wit…LOL!!! You summed it up perfectly!!! HAHAHAHA!! And everything that you said is EXACTLY the relationship I had with my EX. The won’t see me on hoidays, won’t meet my family….don’t call me, I’ll call you..BLAH BLAH BLAAHHHHHH….pretty much sums up the 4 year relationship we had perfectly.
So yes, when this guy sat down and started yapping, I knew he was a jerk, but when he said he was married?? I was seeing RED!! I had to laugh about it! Seriously?? How do I attract these assholes!!! And yes, there was an overwhelming urge to kick him the the you know what! Clearly they were pretty big…I probably wouldn’t have missed!!!
Wow!! Just shocking really! I don’t think he knew that I would have such a reaction though..I wanted to be like honey, I can smell your kind from a mile away..but naaahhhh…that’s gonna be my little secret weapon. Bring it on assholes and when I fire back….don’t be shocked! He put his tail between his legs and ran!! It was awesome!! I was really proud of myself for sticking up and saying something!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:49pm
witsend says:
Amber,
Good for you! Maybe that guy didn’t proposition any other targets for the rest of the day.
I am REALLY glad that you said something….Sometimes when I am caught off guard like that, I don’t say anything (much) BUT think of something clever to say when its to late…
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:54pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LIG–when you’ve seen one you’ve seen them all, no conscience, no remorse no matter what they’ve done. Some just have more guts than others, but they are all the same under the skin—cheats and liars.
So, the take home lesson from this is, if someone is a cheat and a liar to others, what makes you think you’re so special they will “reform” for you!? DUH!
Janie, yea, that’s the way I see it. If someone is a cheat and a liar to others or a thief, etc. just because theya re not doing it this minute, this second, doesn’t mean they have ‘reformed” or that they are “Mostly nice” I think it is like dead or pregnant, you can’t be a little bit dead or a little bit pregnant, you either you is or you ain’t.
Now, I’m like you, no one is perfect (even me LOL!) I do make MISTAKES, but I don’t do DELIBERATE bad deeds. I may hurt your feelings, but I care if I do (if you’re not a P!) I didn’t deliberately set out to hurt anyone’s feelings, and if I bounce a check it is because I added 2+2 and got 5 by accident, not because I wrote a check knowing there was no money. I make mistakes but not intentionally. I do get bent out of shape when people say “Oh, he made a mistake and robbed a bank, he should be given a second chance.” NO!!! he did NOT make a mistake, he KNEW DARNED WELL HE WAS ROBBING A BANK, the mistake is what got him caught and it does not deserve him another chance. He is a criminal and he should get his “reward” for being a criminal. There are “no athiests in fox holes, and there aren’t any in prison either!” Everyone “finds Jesus” in prison or in fox holes, but that doesn’t mean it will “stick” once they are out of the crunch.
I have a dear friend who is a prison minister, I actually met this wonderful and caring man through my P-son (who he had conned) and through the years (about 15 now) we have become very close friends and confidents, and I have taught him a great deal about Ps and he has helped me in my own spiritual walk to let go of the cultish angry “god” of my raising, and to embrace the loving heavenly father that he believes in.
While we both agree that people can be changed by accepting a religion or philosophy, he is no longer the naive person he was about psychopaths. My P son sent him a letter telling him how we (the family) were persecuting him because we would not give him “unconditional love”—he sent me both the letter from my son and his response to it. At that time my egg donor was also NC with my P-son and he was furiously writhing over the hot coals of NC and worse yet, NO MONEY! He was trying every manuver he could do to get us to respond. I used to read his letters and actually LAUGH AT how he was writhing like a live pig being turned over the coals. NC WORKS it throws them into a frenzy of trying to figure out how to regain control over the situation. Especially if you have something they want—like money!
Anyway, I have spent countless hundreds of hours e mailing and talking to my minister friend and if ever there was a man who believes in teh God he preaches, it is this man. He works at a job and also does almost full time ministry in both prisons and low income areas, takes no salary for preachhing. He reminds me of the apostle Paul. Very educated, and very caring. Very selfless. But no longer naive.
He comes here to read on LF but does not post, so he has gotten an education in and about Ps.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:54pm
amber says:
wit…yeah I tend to shy away from saying things too. And I’m ALWAYS thinking of what I SHOULD have said. Well not anymore. There are so many times I bit my tongue or let it slide, and then thought…I wish I would have said this..or that…Well from now on, if it comes to me in the moment….I’m saying it and not biting my tongue. I’m learning to be more assertive and firm with MY OWN CHOICES! And it felt really good to tell that jerk off!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 6:03pm
witsend says:
Well guys I am going to put the finishing touches on dinner. Spaghetti tonight…..I love the smell of Italian while its cooking. Garlic, green peppers, onions, tomatoes, spices….Mmmm Smells good.
Hope to get on later….But Monday is my favorite TV night. I just love the new program Trama. (I know I need a life) But in my younger days I wanted to be an EMT or First Responder…And this show is just all about that.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 6:07pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Amber,
A big TOWANDA for you!!!! I am sure that telling that jerk off made you feel great! And what a jerk too! LOL I hope you get over your “judgmental” ways and inseurities! LOL ROTFLMAO I would have given my right arm to be there to see the look on his face!
TOWANDA AGAIN!!!!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 6:43pm
amber says:
LOL! Thanks OX. Yeah, it was one of my prouder moments! It did make me feel a whole lot better, and his face was classic!! And then he got all defensive and I knew I had made him feel like an idiot! It was great!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 6:57pm
justabouthealed says:
Woohoo Amber!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:36pm
ErinBrock says:
Amber:
EMPOWERMENT!
We can’t control what others say or do……BUT WE SURE CAN BE IN CONTROL OF WHAT WE COME UP WITH!
Kudos to YOU!!!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:42pm
JaneSmith says:
You told him, Amber. Good for you!
I’ve experienced the same shock factor more than a few times in the last couple of years while chillin in a local bar, just minding my own business, sipping a glass of wine and observing the people parade.
I’m serious when I say that on more than one occasion, some…dude( that I wasn’t even talking to) would flat out ask me to go home with him. No…”how do you do?” or “what’s your name?” or “Do you like donuts?” Just…”Wanna come home with me?’
NO! I do not want to go home with you! Not now or ever, get it buster?! I’ve said that. Honest.
The last time a dude asked me that rude, disgusting question, I calmly responded…”you’re too old and even if you were younger, the answer would still be HELL NO!”
Seriously, so many oblivious, incredibly stupid males abound that where once I was totally speechless with their presumptive nonsense now, I let fire away my annoyance. Why not? Good practice, I say.
btw–not referring to real men above. Not the good, decent, honorable fellas who are hiding from me…haha. Just the rotton to core ones. The bad apples.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:42pm
ErinBrock says:
JaneSmith:
You hot sexy young thang!
I am appalled at the gaul….I’m glad you and Amber have the balls and self esteem to shut them down…..
In these situations it would be fun to play along for a bit….huh…..and clip a closepin on their wandering penis for a souvenier!
Not suggested….just a ‘fantasy’!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:51pm
amber says:
Thanks Eb, Justabout, and JaneSmith…seriously I can’t believe what some men will say and do sometimes! Like really?? Tthat’s supposed to get me to take you home and rip my clothes off??? Not so much. Hey, if they can be that rude and blunt…then so can I! I’m over being the polite lady that would normally giggle and be nice. SCREW THAT!!! LOL!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:06pm
JaneSmith says:
Yeah, Amber! We super strong, intelligent, classy dames are fed up with the nonsense and we’re not taking it any more!
Ya here that, duders? Out there in cyber space…somewhere?
I tore up my Always-Nice-Gal club membership card a couple of years ago and haven’t regretted it ever since!
Of course, I will always be my sunny, considerate self to those who deserve it. Just not to the fools, clowns and jokers who bother me. Pfft! Away with you, peasant dude!…haha.
(You got all us women riled up here with righteous indignation, Amber…*high five*)
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:08pm
amber says:
LOL!!! Ya!!! You hear that duders?!?!?!?! We’re not taking NO SHIT FROM NOBODY!!! HAHAHA! Love it! high five right back!!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:20pm
henry says:
Janie~! I always lite up when I see you here. You seem to be doing well and I am happy to see that. I think of you often and will always remember your strong encouraging post. I remember when you and I both were not at this place we are now. Continue with your inspiration and wit,,,,henry p.s. so he said ‘Wana come home with me?” well he had a “home”~~!! most guys in bars ask me “Do you have a place?”
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:22pm
JaneSmith says:
Erin,
Oh, my darling, how sweet yet incorrect you are with your description of me. I’ll keep the hot and sexy though, if that’s ok?
I promise you folks, PROMISE that I am no way a vain, shallow, vacuous female. Uh-uh. I’ve been striving to pulverize my blasted ego to bits for awhile now because it causes nothing but trouble! Meaning that I have become immune to glib flattery, attention from the opposite sex.
Their opinions of me mean diddly squat. I not only like myself but I love myself as well, though I will never be IN love with me. So creepy.
The thing is, I inherited a youth gene from both sides of the family. I show people my id in stores, bars, clubs and the first thing out of their mouth is…”NO WAY! This is a fake.”
Why would I lie and make my age so…ahem…up there? In the higher digits?
Anyway, I’ve looked at this face and body for so many years that I just see that same old face and body. Ya know?
I’m so much more interested in character, depth, goodness that a person’s physical appearance is irrelevant.
Some of the most beautiful people I have known would have been shunned by the superficial for not meeting so-called “classical standards.”
Let em! Who cares?! I get the pleasure of their awesome company all to myself…haha.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:22pm
Matt says:
JaneSmith:
Actually, I do have a friend who lies about his age. He is a very handsome 50 year old. When people ask him how old he is he says 62. He then gets the inevitable “OMG you don’t look a day over 42.” I told him he is pathetic (he knows where I am coming from), but it really does crack me up.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:40pm
JaneSmith says:
Henry sweetheart!
I haven’t missed you ’cause I read your posts all the time! I do, I really do!
And I even read them more than once, ain’t that cool? It’s like the Adorable Henry in triple time! Woot!
I laughed at your pathetic dude pick up line. With glee but a little sadness also because you are such an incredible man and deserve so much more than that shallow, stupid crap.
Here, here! We all do!
**HUGGLES**
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:04pm
JaneSmith says:
Haha…Matt! So funny and clever your friend is. (Yoda speak–I’m a nerd)
But I think If I told people I was 10 years or older than my actual age, they would roll their eyes in humor and disbelief.
It’s a burden sometimes being so honest and truthful…;P
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:09pm
henry says:
On the subject of age. It really turns my stomach when I read some of the profiles on dating sites, when some guy says ‘ I am 40 but I look and act younger’ or my BIG turn off is for a gay man to say he is “straight acting” I am so through with actor’s. I am 55 and look every bit of it and it’s no ACT~!
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:21pm
ErinBrock says:
Henry and Jane
I read those profiles and wonder why it is that men think it’s a medal of honor to look and ACT younger……
That would be NOTHING I would think was great!
I want someone who is mature and enjoys who they are and at whatever age they are!
I would never post ‘my friends say I look and act younger’….damn….I might be impressed if the man was 90!
Straight acting…..HAHA….what’s up with that?
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:41pm
bethv says:
Dr Leedom, As someone who is married too, and been with a great man fo 5 yrs that WAS married to a sociopath, you only speak the truth. She has reaked permanent havek on their children and continues to attempt to destroy every life she touches. Being the one person who can anticipate 95% of the time what her next desperate, evil move will be, I have become enemy numero uno! She hates my husband, but she loathes me. I have had to learn to stop her anyway I could so that we can merely survive. What she is continuously doing to these two poor children by using them as pawns 100% of the time is not only unthinkable to a mother like myself but horrifying. There are so many victims here…but yet she has everyone form her church group to the courts convinced she is the true victim here. It has cost me and us everything financially and emotionally, and we have at least 8 more years of it. My advice to anyone who gets involved or falls in love with a person that was married to a sociopath is you had better be strong, quick, educated, determined, understanding, and the perserverance to survive with this loved one has to be a unit effort. It takes one hell of a person to get out of a sociopathic relationship, but it takes just as strong of a person to be married too or in love with the person who escaped! God Bless all of us who suffer this wrath one way or another. BethV
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:54pm
henry says:
hey Erin – straight acting gay men are dysfunctional – I prefer men that are manly or masculine in nature – but that is only my preference – just don’t act at being something or someone your not – especially don’t act like you love me or like me – Don’t kill me with your act at loving me PLEASE~! I guess I will never get over that. Makes me have to look at myself – like damn henry – are you that desperate for love? that vulnerable, yes I was – yep oh well life goes on…dang I dont like all this friction going on here on this site.. I have to find some place to blog, I really like blogging – LF was my first blogging experience – I had heard about blogging but didnt get it, When I came here I wasnt just wanting to blog I was wanting to survive..guess there are other blog sites – it sure is hard to leave here tho – this is my family here – were else will anyone understand what a sociopath did too me? I just want to hug everybody here..sorry for the rambling…
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:52am
Stargazer says:
Well, whatever you do, henry, don’t blog on the reptile site (not that you would. lol). There’s worse drama going on over there right now. I wonder if there’s a full moon. In my limited experience with forums, this happens from time to time on all of them. I sometimes need to take a break from the forums. Truthfully, I tend not to take stuff too personally here (at least I haven’t so far), but I get really upset by some of the stuff that goes on at the reptile forum. I think it’s because it was my first forum and my first internet “home”. There are so many wierd people over there (I supposed I should include myself in that depiction), but there is something about reptile people. I don’t know what it is, but it’s like this bond we all share. Just like on here we all share a bond through the more humanoid type of reptile.
Just in case I ever start thinking I can just walk away from the forums with no repercussions, I realize how much I’d miss certain people, like you, henry. I’d miss you if I never saw you posting again.
I don’t know if it’s good or bad for me to be on the forums so much. I do have a life and wish I had more of one. Most of the things I want and need to blog about are not sociopath-related. I just like to chat about things happening in my day-to-day life.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:06am
henry says:
hey star – nope you won’t find me on your reptile website – I think I told you about the two huge 35′ long black chicken snakes in my chicken house – that was a nite I will never forget. I wish this website had a thread called “rant and raves’ or “just chat” that way we wouldnt step all over someones article or interupt supporting someone in dire need of help.. Like you I have grown fond of some of the people here and would like to chat about other things, or ramble on about nothing in particular, like we sometimes do on saturday nites when the moon if full.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:19am
Stargazer says:
BTW, I want a man who looks and acts younger because he IS younger. LOL I’m just kidding really. I think my cougar phase (aka midlife crisis) is coming to an end.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:29am
Stargazer says:
The thing about this forum is that even when people are arguing, they are still polite. On my other forum, people insult each other, call each other ignorant, and spew a lot of words that get bleeped out. People get banned, and infractions are handed out. This is like the garden of eden compared to over there.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:32am
henry says:
- I think with a young mind.. to be honest SURE I would like a 30 something guy to fall in love with – but I am too insecure – he would leave me when I couldnt get it up anymore, or couldnt keep up with his energy.. If I could be sure they would never leave me..so in other words if someone truly truly loved us for ever and ever amen – I would consider it…but so far that has not happened
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:39am
henry says:
I have stuck my head in a few other forums and I dont care to join them..I can relate with your statement about your reptile site being your home. That is why I love it here. Maybe I should look for a weiner dog blog, now that is a thot.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:43am
henry says:
star – I do have a site where I play canasta – I have chatted with peeps from all over the world. It would be great if some of you could join me there…..
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:53am
henry says:
it is Pogo.com my name there is Reddirt
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:54am
heavenbound says:
Your not going to leave here are you Henry? You know LF needs you, don’t you?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:45am
ErinBrock says:
Hens….
HOWWWLLLLLLLLL…..oh, sorry…not a full moon….AND NOT a Sat. night!
I won’t leave you AND….I have NO IDEA if you can get it up or not!!!!!
Henry….I want to tell you, I really enjoy your company on LF….I like your perspective and male opinions……and I enjoy having fun with you and the others making big plans for Saturday nights…..even though we should be out enjoying the ‘real’ world….
You give me a lot to think about and I appreciate you sharing with me/us…….
BESIDES THE FACT….what the hell is CANASTA????
And you just tortured me thinking of you as Reddirt!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:13am
heavenbound says:
Henry
sorry for my last post, that could cause a person stress.
I have no right to imply anything about someone leaving. Who am I to say someone else has to stay “they’re needed”. I’m not into this internet business. I will be leaving soon myself see, I’m like 180 years old when it comes to the internet….just don’t like it.
I’m still trying to figure out how to have necessary contact with the p without using email…. not going to happen I suppose.
Anyway Henry, I want you to know that you will always have a very special place in my heart. I will never forget you for as long as I live! You’ll never know and I could never explain how you have touched my heart so dearly!
I’d have to compete with Erin, and I’m afraid I don’t hold a light to her otherwise I’d be your younger, life long companion! (i’m in my 30’s!!!)
Love, hugs, and prayers, heavenbound
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:33am
ErinBrock says:
Heaven:
Girl PULEEEASSSEE…..hold a light to me…..if you ONLY knew!
I’m like 180 years old in REAL life!!!! For reals!
This is my only internet deal too…and I have to say, I really enjoy everyone and the different personalities…..I’ve only been on a computer for 6 years…..Which is like a virgin today….I’m not one to get the latest and greatest in tech…at all…..I resisted a computer, until my position required it. I’m still not convinced it’s not more work…..
I still keep paper files, and have some stuff on the computer…..I LOVE IT FOR research…there is so much more than an encyclopedia can ever offer….but I do see danger on the web…
It has it’s ups and downs….I think you do great!
We all need to find our own happiness in our own place and time.
Thanks for your posts and insights, you are truely a caring soul.
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 4:16am
heavenbound says:
Erin,
HEEHEE, 180 yrs old in real life! So how I feel too!
I agree with you about the different personalities, it is the greatest!
I resisted a computer until my position required it as well…less then six months ago!!!I took classes at the local college on it a hundred years ago so I remember very little.
I can’t thank you enough for your kind words, I really need that, it’s been so long since I’ve had people say good things about me, to me. I’ve only been nc almost six months and I have been hid out at my moms, licking my wounds, (I know when I go home, he’ll show up) I don’t have any friends in the ‘real world’. (that’s usually a good thing) I like the lack of drama! What family I have left, after the p, are pretty tied up, stressed out and sometimes I think they only acknowledge my faults. Their human so I don’t blame them, but it does hurt sometimes to not be known for any good qualities….You know like so and so is always giving or some other positive statement…with me I hear she’s always like that or she never…alot of it is probably in my own mind though. I just want to be noticed for my good qualities (if I have any) a little more. oh well it keeps me humble I guess!
Thank you Erin it is really nice to be called a caring soul.
Buy the way the first LF article I read came up on a google search about sociopaths and children I think, I wanted to know how to handle things for my son and….anyway, your post is what brought me back over and over until I finally figured out how to get on other articles and then was able to see other posts. I’m slow like that,,,it took FOREVER I tell ya!
You had posted about getting ready for and then going to deposition with your x, it was in a may article if I remember right. You were so thrilled about how well it had went! I kept going back and trying to find more posts, It was the first time that I even dared to think I might be able to hold my own with him. It gave me hope! I was so terrified, I had just found out what he was, everything I found about p’s described him, I knew my son was in more danger then I had already known and I was seeing very little hope for protecting him against his “father”.
I’m not making a whole lot of sense, I just wanted to share with you that it was a post you had made … That helped me see it was possible, I just had to get focused and determined. (not that I’m always focused, but I was a mess at the time and NEVER focused) From there, my healing began!
Wow, I hope this is easier to follow then I think, I feel like I’ve jumped all over the place.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 5:08am
Easy says:
I believe it is Human Nature to find meaning , make sence , to understand or figure out why and how stuff happens to us! The relationship with the N/S/P wether by choice or birth comes as a Shock to the system! Literally!
The path to healing is made morre difficult, by the disbelieve of those closest to us and the manipulation of our own emotions and feelings by someone we have loved. Logic had flown out the window like a free bird!
If someone is lucky enough to catch a clue to the reality of these parasitic people. The path to comprehension and healing is made considerably more smooth!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:02am
Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Thank you everyone for this great discussion.
Libelle explained why Dr. Linden does not define bitterness- because in his native German this word has a specific meaning that everyone understands. The meaning does not exactly translate into English.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:04am
Plowman says:
Hello Oxy! Hello all!
PTSD? Is that what I have, huh? I knew I was carrying around something and I knew it had a name other than perpestual anger, guilt, shame and embarassment. Been a victim since Jule ‘08 and just when I think I’m turning the corner, there’s construction being done at that particular corner and I have to take an alternate route. Every corner I come to has a contruction sign. Thus, my turning the corner is taking much longer and I’m constantly met with days of frustration.
A friend, who felt betrayed when the roof fell in on me back in July of ‘08, had been a steady ally in this whole affair. She felt hurt about my ex’s lies and deceitfulness too. Well, she recently decided to forgive my ex and re-new their friendship. I saw her add my ex to her Facebook profile and it re-opened the book of heartache for me. She did this after taking a verbal axe to my ex for the better part of a year and 4 months and ignorning her constant attempts at communication. I deleted this woman from my FB profile, blocked her from sending any e-mails to that particular account and to my home address as well. For all I know, she has no idea I did. I view this as an act of betrayal and I’m at the stage where I don’t bother to question people for things they do or sit and have a heart to heart – I just delete them from my ‘life profile’. I just don’t want to know why they did what they did and lied to me so I’m better off not engaging. To most, that’s wrong to not want to talk but once I’m lied to, that’s it; I don’t want to waste my time hearing more. My sense of skepticism is so high rght now that this is what it’s come to. I’m sure my ex has to feel as though she did the right thing and now, two friends of mine have taken her side in all this.
I’m sick and tired of hearing how I’ll become stronger once this all blows over. There isn’t a wind strong enough to blow all of this over.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:13am
henry says:
Heavenbound – I am not going anywhere. Not untill we get your wings fixed anyhow…..ohh I dreamed about him last nite and we were just about to do the deed and I said I cant do this and he said OK and left.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:14am
henry says:
Heavenbound – You unfortunate peeps that have children with toxic P’s have to take a whole different approach to contact. You really cant ever cut ties with the parent of your children. If I was in your shoe’s I think E-MAIL would be the best way to comunicate, you dont have to hear his voice or see his face. Keep it simple and to the point and copy and save every email.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 10:02am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Plowman,
I read your post. I always get a lot from your writing.
It’s probably not much consolation right now, but I would describe what you’re going through as housecleaning. Encounters with sociopaths inevitably leave us with a better sense of necessary boundaries. And that isn’t just being more untrusting — which is what it seems like at first. The more positive side of this is that we start making quicker and better choices about what we want in our lives. And that involves quicker and better responses to threats to our equanimity and self-respect.
We do change in good ways (even though you don’t want to hear this right now). And as virtually everyone who goes through this discovers, as we get better, not everyone in our lives proves to be compatible with our new selves.
I gather from your post that you are seeing this as a betrayal. But you might also try on the idea that your friend, despite whatever you assume she has learned from the past year or so, still hasn’t really gotten the lessons that you have. So she’s entering her own round of learning. The hard part of observing something like this is that it’s unlike that we can save the victims. They have to save themselves.
There’s a good chance that you’re going to find her leaning on you, in the same way you leaned on her. And you’ll have a choice to make at that time about how you want to view this — a betrayal of you or as your friend making her own visit to the funhouse that you’ve already escaped. As we all know here, no one really gets the experience of close dealings with a sociopath until they’ve suffered through it. Later, you and she might have a lot more in common than you had before.
Meanwhile, I think you made a great decision to drop the iron curtain on her. For one reason — because it causes you pain. Unless we’re forced to deal with someone (like a co-custodial ex), when a relationship pains us, it’s a very good idea to take a time-out at minimum and, at maximum, just dump it and find something more rewarding to do.
That is the real learning that comes out of these relationships. We have choices. That, and the fact that we are solely responsible for making choices that support our well-being, our happiness and the long-term creation of the lives we want. Going through the angry period — with all its illumination of what external problems we’re dealing with, its skill practice of creating clear boundaries and defending them, and its inevitable housecleaning is an important part of this learning.
Once we get that down, we can move on to more more positive things, like choosing what’s right for us and building a future that reflects who we really are and want to be.
I can’t tell you to stop suffering, but maybe if you understand what you’re going through and where it’s actually going, it will help. I can only imagine how frustrated and disappointed you feel. But it is a function of getting smarter and more empowered, and it will work out in the end.
Namaste.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 10:20am
OxDrover says:
Dear Plowman,
WELCOME BACK!!!!
I know it gets “tiresome” to stay on the rocky road we tread in our recovery and we just want to “GET THERE NOW! We just get sick and tired of being “sick and tired!”
I agree with kathy, you did a good thing to drop the “iron curtin” (Kathy a new PHRASE has been added to LF!) Iron Curtain is NC! Great analogy! Or is it metaphor? Can’t remember have to look it up. LOL
Anyway, Plow man “it” (the healing) isn’t “over” one day, it is an incremental process in which we slowly improve ourselves and the wounds scar over and are no longer painful.
It is very possible that your “friend” like kathy said just doesn’t get it and somepeople will “forget” what someone else has doen if ENOUGH TIME passes, they think of this as “forgiving” but what they don’t get is that the person has NOT CHANGED, and if they have done something horrible, they will do it again. Like I was talking the other day about a guy who is a “really NICE guy—when he is not robbing banks.” sometimes people can pretend to be “Mr/Ms Nice person” between episodes of horrible behavior. It does not mean they ARE nice, ,just that they pretend to be most of the time.
We all make mistakes and act “ugly” (as my granny would have said) sometimes, but there are LIMITS to “HOW UGLY” we can behave and there are just some limits that if they are passed are NOT-redeemable.
Look at John Wayne Gacey—great guy, entertained the kiddies, public service, good neighbor–WHEN HE WASN’T RAPING AND KILLING CHILDREN AND BURYING THEM UNDER HIS HOUSE. Of course Gacey is a prime example of the BAAAAAAAAD guy who pretended to be Mr. Nice Guy.
I think we are actually the sum of our worst attribute. Gacy was a monster all the time because he was a monster once in a while, I think 33 times as far as they know. so he was only a monster maybe less than 1% of the time and Mr Nice guy the rest? NO! Of course not.
Not every one gets that though about people like your X. sinice she didn’t kill you outright, ,when enough time passes that she is pretending to be Ms. nice then it is okay to start being friends with her again. I’ve seen this kind of thing work over and over. People will “Punish” someone for bad behavior for X period of time and then go back to treatinig them like before when the punishment has been “enough.” JUst like we put a little kid in the corner for bad behavior and then go back to being “nice” to them. the difference is, with the little kid is that we confront the behavior, talk to them about why it is NOT OK to hit their sister, give them a consequence, then let them out of the corner. This does NOT work with adults. Especially if you don’t “give them a talking to” and if they don’t show REAL repentence for their behavior. Plus, giving these people TRUST again until they have EARNED it is not a wise move either….but when I was in the work place and out socializing with large groups I saw it over and over and over.
Stay around Plow man and keep on reading the archived articles, even if you have read them before. Work on YOU, on validating yourself I’m sure it hurt to have your friend go back to contact with your X, but she most likely truly doesn’t “get it” like Kathy said.
It hurt me when people I cared about would try to “straddle the fence” when my egg donor and others had treated me so horribly. Even my son C was “on the fence” and didn’t know what to believe—his wife and his Grandmother were telling him how crazy I was, and he didn’t see the deception in them. It took his wife trying to kill him to WAKE HIM UP to the fact that I was right, and they were the deceivers. Since then, he has not waivered in the least, because NOW HE GETS IT.
He truly apologized to me for not seeing it sooner, and I hold no bitterness toward him for not getting it sooner, heck it took me nearly 60 years to get it so I iunderstand about “not getting” it—-my egg donor had treated me like crap and controlled me (because I let her) for my entire life and bitterly punished me when I didn’t comply with her wishes.
So Ii hold no bitterness toward my son but it sure did hurt until he did get it.
Some people never get it and they keep on being too trusting of others whose bad behavior they have observed.
Not everyone is as fortunate as we are to GET IT and I do believe that puts us a step ahead of the rest of the world who doesn’t get it, because we are SAFER from another attack by another P or even the same P.
We have also examined ourselves, what made us vulnerable, and we can be wiser, and ultimately happier because our friends, those closest to us are TRUE friends. In my case, my family being small, the only family I have now is my two (of three) sons and a very few close and trustworthy friends. My extended family is still taken in by the egg donor and her smear campaign. But I am going to make a life, a GOOD LIFE, for myself. Weeding out my garden of “friends” and pulling out the weeds leaves me more time for myself and the good things I DO have!
I’m glad you are bck here Plowman, and I firmly believe that every day we learn something new, we get better, closer to where we want to be.
I’ve been here at LF over two years now and each day Ii learn something new here, get a new insight, and RE_AFFIRM the things I have learned. this is like AA for alcoholics, it helps to reaffirm my resolve and gives me a place to share my ups and downs with others who DO get it! Others who do understand. (((hugs)) and my prayers for you Plowman.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:30am
heavenbound says:
Henry,
That dream,,,that’s a trigger,,,it’s just like them…
If you dream about me I won’t say ok and leave, I’ll smother you with affection and desire! til you say you can “do this”
I know I know,,, I’m a woman,,,I’ve learned that’s not such a great thing. But guess what, If I were a man I KNOW I’d be gay!!!! Then you’d have no excuse for ignoring my advances on you!!
About the email contact. We don’t have contact except when absolutely necessary, like when my son is too sick to go. so no chance yet to tell him to contact me only by email. I’m dreading it because when I do, he’ll play too stupid to understand, he’ll play so many games just getting it right that I’ll have a complete breakdown…
It’ll be hard but Ill handle it, i just dread it to no end. When the next contact is made, I’ll make the contact from my end from email to his phone, state my business and then tell him that from now on the only way to contact me will be to txt my email, unless it is an emergency concerning our son or if my son needs to contact me while with him then a phone call will be necessary. Does that sound right from all you’ve heard from others? What do you think?
Every time I’ve had to contact him or return contact, I have a huge anxiety attack.
So anyway, tell me more about this dream. How you feel about it. why do you think you were thinking about him?
Give me more.
I love you Henry! Thank you for caring about my broken wings!
Well it sounds conceded for me to say I have wings, broken or not!
Love, hugs, and prayers, heavenbound
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:27pm
henry says:
HeavenBound – I do apologize for not knowing all the details of your ’story’. But I will give you my opinion with what little info I have retained. I have 2 son’s ‘grown’ although I now have a very good parent relationship with my xwife, it wasnt always so. I had too put up with alot of verbal abuse from my X wife, picking them up for visitation was always a dreaded event. That was her time to attack me and say horrile things in front of my sons. It was my mission to remain civil with her. I did not want my sons to suffer more than they had to.
If your X is not verbally or physically abusive to your son. If he pays child support and wants to be a part of this childthen you have to accept that and be glad for it. There are no laws against being an asshole father. Your sons seems to be intuitive about his attitude. Eventually your son will make the decision if he wants to visit him or not. Meanwhile keep your pain and grief seperate from this. In hindsight I am happy that I maintained my cool with her and that we can now be friendly, especially where the kids and grandkids are concerened. Obviously your X has done a job on your self confidence and self worth and has hurt you very bad. But work on you, you know what your X is all about and that wont change. Just do the right thing for your son and avoid as much drama as you can..
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Henry,
I sure missed you dude! I think your advice to heaven is RIGHT ON. It is difficult to do but is a must I think because no matter how rotten a father her x is, it doesn’t sit well to put the kid in the middle to choose between mom and dad. I’m glad your kids made it through, and I credit you with that. I am sure, given all the circumstances that your X was angry at you and that was her way to strike out, but you holding your cool is what I would have expected of you and I iam proud of you for doing what was RIGHT not what you might like to have done!
I’ve been in the “do I or do I not” say anything to the kids. I itook the high road on that one as well, but oh, boy was it difficult!
We just have to put the kids first! Good advice.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:05pm
henry says:
Yep she was angry that I found out she was screwing my uncle – they got married and she is now my aunt…and my son’s are my nephews – but the kicker is she is now my moms sister-in-law instead of daughter -in-law – and my momma didnt like her at ALL~! this is no joke folks…
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:45pm
henry says:
I hope someone get’s a chuckle out of that – took me a very long time – he he
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:49pm
Stargazer says:
Wow, henry, I had to delurk to see if you’ve ever heard the song, “I’m my Own Grandpa”? Your post reminded me of that!
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/.....n_grandpa/
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:54pm
henry says:
LMAO Hey Star – Oh yeah I know all about that song – one time I made a check out to my x ‘Aunt_____ _____” oh I paid for that BIG TIME“
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:58pm
shabbychic says:
henry, that is mind-boggling!!!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:03pm
henry says:
shabby I have been telling you for months my mind is boggled…..cain’t do nothin but laugh at this point–
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:09pm
henry says:
and my Uncle divorced his wife ‘my Aunt’ when he found out she was screwing my cousin – and yes they got married, I avoid family reunions in fear of getting hit on – and they call me queer?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:14pm
henry says:
none of these perverts are blood related so it’s all legal – lmao – i promise I am not making this up….
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:15pm
heavenbound says:
Henry,
I’m glad you two have a very good parent relationship. That is a very good thing. But the whole story is a hoot! A family reunion would be fun to watch,,,I’d think!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:29pm
henry says:
oh i dont do reunions.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:39pm
shabbychic says:
no more boinks on the head for you!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:40pm
witsend says:
Henry,
OMG, I guess you have better reasons than most of us to avoid family reunions! Everyone would have to wear name tags stating their “rank” in the family…
I LOVE where you wrote you X wife a check addressed to aunt so and so. TO FUNNY.
How long after your divorce did this happen?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 10:44pm
henry says:
They were maried 6 months after the divorce. They are still married and my Uncle has been a great step-dad and is great with my grandkids…she could of married a jerk that was mean to my kids, so it all worked out for the best. But it is something I dont talk about often. This was 25 years ago.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:00pm
skylar says:
Henry, it seems like everything bad happened ’round about that year. Late ‘83, early ‘84. my condolences to you, even though it did work out ok for the kids.
This comic strip is so funny I just had to post it. It is soooo LF.
http://comics.com/zoom/127263/
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:04pm
henry says:
Sky That is too funny!!!!!! thanx for sharing it. I have just touched the surface of my life, I would write a book but I am still trying to figure out the plot. It would make a great dark comedy.. It’s funny that I lived with all this drama my whole life and a skanky trick that wouldnt leave brought me to my knees. go figure
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:24pm
skylar says:
Yeah Henry each of us has a great book to write. some of us just need a better ending for ours.
Funny thing is, they are all skanky tricks. That’s the lure, a walk on the wild side, going slumming for a day, or some other exciting lure to take us away from reality and WHAM BAM THANKYOU MAM. They’ve taken 25 years, our money, our soul and mostly our faith in humanity. Oh well, we had to grow up sometime right?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:30pm
henry says:
education in reality long overdue good to see ya Sky
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
My ex, the sociopath, wanted us to write a screenplay together, before I moved him out to LA to break into the movie business. His idea was to write it about a sociopath and the woman who loved him. (Not that he was admitting anything… the premise just intrigued him.)
I thought it was a great idea. I had visions of a Mamet-style movie, all strange interiors and obvious but exquisitely telling dialogue. I wanted to write the story of a woman who was completely under the spell of a charismatic con man who was slowing killing everything about her, and how she slowly figured out that, while all the other marks came and went when he was done with them, she was the one that he couldn’t leave alone. And how she the wherewithal to escape, but not before she turned the tables on him in some very permanent way. Maybe killing him, maybe setting him up to be busted for some capital crime he’d never done.
I told him my idea, and he said that he’d actually had something in mind with more like an action movie with a lot of car chases. And then in that classic way they do, he just sort of drifted away, the fading of interest in the the project playing out in his eyes like a camera lens going out of focus.
I was one of the funnier (for me) moments of the relationship.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:05am
henry says:
guess he didnt like the part about killing him?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:13am
shabbychic says:
skylar, great comic strip!! too cute, too real!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:13am
amber says:
Ok I don’t know where to post this…so I guess here is good! Well, I thought I was having a good day…and my dad called. We have a family friend that works on cars for extra money. This guy has worked on my car a few times in the last year or so. Great guy. I gave him my car a week ago to have my muffler changed. So my dad calls me today and wants to know if I have an extra key for my car. And I can’t find it for the life of me. I ask…what did Dave lock my key in the car? And nothing could prepare me for what my dad said next. “Well, not exactly. You’re car was stolen Amber. And Dave’s son stole it and no one knows where he’s at.”
……………………………………………..WTF?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! So, I’m on a bit of a quandry. I’m assuming the kids on drugs..otherwise why would he steal a car that his dad was working on for a friend????? But jesus christ?!?!? The car is in my name!! What if this little fucker kills someone drunk driving????? And it’s in MY NAME?!?!?!??! I feel bad for Dave…and my dad told him he has until Thursday to come up with the car or we’re reporting it stolen. Well, what if something happens between now and Thursday?!?!?! Then it’s MY fault for not reporting it right away…..GOD THIS IS HORRIBLE!!!!! What a fucking little shithead of a kid. Dave is beyond embarrassed…which I understand…but what possesses someone to do this stuff?!?!?!?
As if I don’t have enough crap going on…now for the next 48 hours I’m going to worry about some punk ass kid who stole my car?? Hoping that he doesn’t kill someone in it…I don’t know if I can wait that long. Well, I guess Dave wanted the extra key because he thinks he might know where it’s at, and we can just go steal it back..but this is just crazy. Ok well I just needed to vent. Thanks for letting me ramble. Feel free to give me any advice…I could use it right now.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:29am
skylar says:
that sucks amber, but what choice do you have? report it stolen or your insurance won’t cover the damage. Fact is, the kid probably already has a buyer for the parts. Is it honda or toyota? They strip those fast. If the dad knows where it is, he needs to tell the cops before they strip it and he becomes liable. He was the last one who had it. The kid or the dad is going to get thrown under the bus. The only person who shoudn’t be there is YOU, because it’s not your fault, so report it.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:00am
amber says:
Oh man…this is sooooooo LAME!!!! I know I really don’t have another choice…it’s just a crappy situation…I get home from school, and am faced with reporting my car stolen and potentially putting my dad’s friend’s kid in jail!!! Man I thought the hardest decision I would have to make tonight was chicken or fish for dinner….Nope not quite!!! This was not my fault, and learning from experience, being the nice person and giving someone the benefit of the doubt..or giving them a CHANCE to do something right….Well, that’s ALWAYS come back to bite ME in the ass! I called my dad back and posed the same questions..”What if he’s sold it? What if it’s in Mexico? What if he strips it for parts to buy drugs?” It’s a crappy old Nissan Altima for christ sake!! And let’s face it..if the kid was crazy enough to steal it, then why wouldn’t it be stipped or in Mexico by now?!?! So I can’t worry about putting this kid’s ass in jail. YOU STEAL A CAR….YOU BREAK THE LAW…. YOU BREAK THE LAW…. YOU GO TO JAIL PUNK ASS!!! AAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!! I’m sooo annoyed that I even have to deal with this!!! I’m having S flashbacks…man I am a S magnet…they’re even stealing my damn car now!!! LOL!!! Thanks Sky for the respose.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:20am
Isabell says:
Sometimes…I am the wax. Sometimes…I’ve been a brick. Most of the time…I have been a reed; plyable, flexible, willing to bounce back after the storm has bent me over. Never bitter enough to be brittle, and therefore break. Roll with the punches, ebb with the flow. Anger empowers me, though I seem not quite enough anger, as it has been tempered over the years. Bitterness inslaves me… I gave that up for lint one year, and just kept walking. I don’t need it. I don’t want it. It does me no earthly good. So, I bend in the storms of life. The sun will shine again; I’m old enough to believe this, now. And, even though the sun is shining, I’m also old enough to realize another storm is on the horizon. So, live the moment at hand. Enjoy it. Embrace it. For it, too, shall pass.
Peace to all who travel here.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:30am
witsend says:
Amber,
That is bad news about your car.
I think it is to bad that you have to wait until Thursday though to report it. Sounds like his father has had bad experience before with this kid. Because he is automaticaly enabeling him by asking for the “grace period” to find the car before you report it missing.
This grace period is covering his kids butt, if he can find the car but leaving yours WIDE OPEN.
I would consider reporting it today. Because of the “what ifs”??? You need it covered by your insurance. and the only way to do that is to report it.
The other thing is that if this is the kids worst offense to date, you might be also saving this kids ass by him having to face up to the consequence of his actions rather than his family covering them up. Especially if that is what has been happening in the past when he is in trouble.
If he is young enough being in trouble with the law might knock some sense into him. If he has been down this road already than it won’t make much of a difference. BUT either way that isn’t your problem and his dad is kind of putting you in a position by not being able to report your car stolen.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:59am
persephone7 says:
Isabell:
Such a beautiful passage (post doesn’t get it!) you wrote – thank you!
Amber – hope car thing gets resolved quickly for you, I just asked to see
if I could get my timing belt replaced (am overdue and know I better do
it now) and pay in two installments and my longtime mechanic agreed – helps so much. Whatever you can do to enlist help from good friends, do it! And God does work in strange ways sometimes…throws us a curve ball when we least expect it. Good luck!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:08am
Isabell says:
Thank you, Persphone.
Amber, REPORT IT!!! Doing so IS the responsible thing to do for yourself…AND, the kid. Though I know exactly the pickle you are in. How is it when someone violates you, that you feel guilty for protecting yourself? I call this stinkin thinkin. I suffer with it as well. I do believe it is a symptom of having been violated and gaslighted, and lied to, and projected upon (slimed) for so long, we get confused about what is right, and wrong.
Your dad, should be 100% supportive of you; not his friend. If he isn’t….then beware; he’s not looking out for your best interest, but his own in relationship to pleasing (making appearences) for his friend at YOUR EXPENSE. Can you really afford to maintain your dad’s appearence with his friend?
Do the right thing!
Blessings to you…
Well…I’m off to WORK… New job today. YIKES!!!! All prayers and well wishes, and mojo will be joyfully recieved!!! ::grins::
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:33am
henry says:
Isabell – Thanks for that nice ‘passage’ to start the day with – with age comes wisdom. AMBER – This kid violated you, he is a BAD person, do the right thing and report it stolen, friend of a friend or not, if you let it slide I will boink you with thy slillet.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:48am
persephone7 says:
Amber:
I had just enough time to really read through about the car just now – I think Witsend and others make good point – in long run, you may do this
kid a service by reporting it – and sooner then later! He did the deed and
you shouldn’t have to bear the consequences.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:05am
OxDrover says:
The (enabling?) dad may get pithed at you, but I would call the cops THIS INSTANT. There is NO benefit in you “walking on egg shells” the kid is the one that did the bad deed, and YOU are the one paying the consequences, wondering whether to call the cops or not.
Why are YOU obligated to NOT report your car stolen just because it is “HIS KID?”
Think about it—-he is asking you to RISK YOUR TOTAL FINANCIAL STABILITY FOR HIS KID’S BAD BEHAVIOR.
What is FAIR or GOOD about this situation. CALL THE COPS!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:14am
OxDrover says:
You know, the more I think about the car situation the more it pithes me off.
This FOG–fear, obligation and guilt trip that this “friend” is laying on YOU to protect his kid from stealing is what so many Ps families do for them to cover up their bad deeds at someone else’s fault.
They put the onus on the VICTIM (and in this case, that is YOU) to cover up and take the consequences for someone else. All the RISK is YOURS all the benefit is THEIRS and you are made out to be the BAD GUY for calling the cops. UGH!!!!!!!! (that is the sound of me grinding my teeth! and it isn’t even my car!)
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:19am
amber says:
Thanks everyone! And you’ll all be gald to know that I reported it first thing this morning. Yeah, I need to cover my own ass. This kid doesn’t give a shit about me or my car, so sorry buddy, I’m doing what I need to do. Maybe a little time in jail will serve him right. HA! I feel bad for my dad’s friend, but it’s not my responsibility to cover his ass. Like I said, I’m learning to be more assertive and stand up for MYSELF! I tend to let people run all over me because I’m too nice.
I talked to my dad’s friend this morning to let him know that I reported it and I wans’t going to wait. He said he understood. Here’s the kicker, the kid’s got a car there! A nice little Honda. So I told his dad, well I’ll give you the pink slip to mine and you can give me the pink slip for his!! LOL!! Just a joke, but you know that my car is in pieces somewhere right now. The kid’s got a car and he stole mine….RIIIIIGGGHHHTTTT. I’ll never see mine again. Siighhh!! I’m just glad it was an old junker car and not a nice new BMW or something. I’d be besided myself right now.
Well, thanks again everyone for the support and advice. I really do appreciate it. I’ll keep you updated.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:23pm
Matt says:
amber:
First, why would your father care if you have another key for the car? This reminds me of when my movers boosted my microwave. I discovered this after the move when I had the glass tray that goes inside, but no microwave. The moving company INSISTED I turn the tray over to them before they would write me a check.
Second, call the cops. Speaking as a lawyer, you need to notify the cops right off since your have to protect yourself from an insurance liability standpoint. Then notify your insurance company.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:23pm
ErinBrock says:
Amber:
CALL THE COPS!!!!!
You don’t OWN this problem…..it’s someone elses that THEY placed on you.
Report it and let the fucker deal with whatever HE created!!!!!
THERE!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:30pm
amber says:
Matt, my dad wanted to know if I had another key because his friend thinks he might know where he’s hiding out with the car. He thought that maybe he could take it back without having to get the cops involved. So I told him today, well if he thinks he knows where he’s at with the car, then go over there and KICK HIS ASS!!!! He’s trying to cover his kid’s ass by not getting the cops involved, the kid’s only 18 maybe. But I don’t care..I need to watch out for myself! SORRY!!! It’s just a crappy situation all around, but it’s been reported and it’s out of my hands from here. The kid will get what’s coming to him.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:45pm
ErinBrock says:
I wanted to share something that happened last night……
It was almost placed on us from the start of lunch….
I took one child and a friend to chinese food at lunch….1.2 day off school…..
The owner of the restaurant is and has been progressively hurt and sad by her adult children and she has shared abuse by her husband, and feels trapped.
SO we go into the restaurant and she is crying, comes over to our table and UNLOADS when my son said he saw her oldest the other day…..
We all look at each other and didn’t know what to do….it wasn’t appropriate, but we were there. YIKES….
So we listened…..she went into telling the kids about how they need to help their mother, save money and love their family…..how life is not easy. This was her mantra …..life is not easy!
We ordered, and when she delivered the food, she wouldn’t stop….she obvioulsy needed to be ‘heard’, as inapporopreiate as this was……so I went into the you can only contorl yourself speel…..Ya’ll have heard it….I told her it’s possible to get out,…..if THAT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED!!!! She was in control of HER!!!
My son watched me the whole time……I found this very interesting, as I know he has heard it a million times…..
I made an excuse to hurry the check and leave, she even followed us out to the car,,,,,take care of your mamma, be good to her, LIFE IS NOT EASY!…..
Once in the car, I told the kids…..sorry, I had no idea and she obviously wasn’t in a good place.
My sons friend shared some of her life experiences with me about abuse from a step parent etc….and how no one ever wanted to listen to her…..and she thought it was fine and my advice was perfect……although we had planned on just enjoying a lunch together….
So…..fast forward, onto the day……
That evening I had just got home and same son brings home anohter friend….he immediately comes into my office and says…..Mom, XX has a problem and can you talk to her, she really needs advice…..
I’m thinking SHIT….am I DR.Phil….okay…..anything for the kids…..
I feel strongly we should all have someone to be able to open up to…..especially the kids.
OMG….this young lady layed it out! The three of us sat in my sons room as she told me stories of sexual abuse by an adult woman. a fucking 50 year old woman….
the more she talked the more familiar the story was….she was petrified of this woman, worried about the business relationship this woman had with her mother and didn’t want to cause her mother any issues, wasn’t sure if she had provoked her, ….
The girl sent me emails of what the woman wrote to her, and knowing who this woman is and for the past 20 years….SHE WAS GROOMING THIS YOUNG LADY and preying on her!
I made that clear.
This woman has a reputation for swinging, les. sex, cocaine, sex with minors, and the likes….so what the fuck is she doing befrending an 18 year old girl, claiming she is the only one that the girl could trust, I won’t betray you…..blah, blah…..as she’s attempting to get this girl into bed with her and her husband, trying to kiss her, and putting her hand down the girls top!!!
Yada yada…..I told this girl….(she is 18), this woman is NOT her friend, she was preying on her…..It wasn’t going to go away, because this woman is a manipulator and a wouldnt ever see what she was doing as wrong! that it was time for HER to take control, she didn’t do anything wrong, and there was no one that could stop these behaviors but her. As much as I wanted to go rambo on this woman….I could not.
THIS IS NOT HER PROBLEM, and DON”T OWN IT!!!!! But you can put a stop to it….and here’s how…..
I layed out the groundwork for her….
I told her to document and confront the woman….IF she balked call the police and file a restraining order……
Okay….so my point in telling you this was…..during the course of the talk, I made a statement I felt very strongly about…..Said something like NO….she will NOT react like this….she is scared of others finding out and exposure.
I repeated it, and my son stops and says…..XX, when my mom says NO….like that…..she is certain, and one thing I have learned about my mom is ….she knows!!!
OMG, OMG, OMG, OMG…..HEEEELLLLLOOOOOOOO!
My defiant, floundering child just said WHAT??????
I stopped and looked at hiim, (I couldn’t help it) and he says,….it’s true mom….with all you’ve been through and everything you have always told my friends or me…..your right on.
She should listen to you. Trust you.
Remember what you told the Chinese lady today?
HOLY SHIT, MOTHER OF BABY BABCOCK……
My son is listening……they do listen……
I was very proud of him, and I thought about it later….
Ya know….it says alot about him and our relationship that he encourages his friends to talk to me…..and they do…..they spill thier guts to me….I hear it all, abuse, sex, parents, gardening, sports….whatever….
Also, when we talk, that he reinforced what I said with such emphasis.
So this morning, he had a parade to march in….I took him to the bus….and he says to me…..Ya know mom….you should really go back to school and become a psychiatrist…….
I LAUGHED SO HARD!!!! He said, no really….your so good with people and you have lived a life that can help others…..and your good at it!
HOLY SHIT…..MOTHER OF BABY BABCOCK!!!!!
WHO IN THE HELL HAS HIJACKED MY CHILD???????
I appreciate what my son see’s in me……and I appreciate even more that he is willing to verbalize his feelings OUT LOUD!
Proud parental moment……which tells me he IS getting something from me and my experiences in life….he IS paying attention!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
ErinBrock says:
AMBER;
Good for you! I know the quandry…..but we can’t own others issues….we got plenty of our own huh!
Kudos fo rmaking the move!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:27pm
Donna Andersen says:
Erin,
So glad that you’re having such a positive influence on your son and his friends. Congratulations!
Sometimes there is a reason why we experience the abuse – so we can help others get out of it.
Way to go!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:40pm
ErinBrock says:
Heaven:
I’m glad your here and I’m glad you are finding some answers and strength.
I remember the depositin days……oh YES! I just re read the transcript for a laugh the other night…..what a crazy dope he is!
I worked very hard at my divorce, researched every step and knew how and whne to hit……
I really never worried about the custody side….because the kids were exposed by HIM…..and I knew it would not be a power play by him, given what the kids knew and lived at his hands.
I also knew….there wasn’t a judge on earth that could MAKE my kids do anything they were NOT wanting to do! PERIOD!
They want nothing to do with their father!!! And are the first to speak up on his abusive and drug related bahaviors.
Outside of offering to SELL me the kids for 80K…..that was his biggest attempt……ALthough he did tell the judge I was terminal…..HAHAHAHAHA….sorry……..and he should have custody of them……I would be dead in a year! The judge said, oh really, and how did you gain this info…he said HEr Dr……then the judge said, Oh, I see…..so is this WHY you cancelled your wifes health ins? KABOOM!
But…..Heaven…..YES….we can protect our children AND ourselves…..and our assets……
All of our situations are different, yet similar….but there are KEY things to do to be successful!
And if I can do it……ANYONE can!!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:40pm
ErinBrock says:
Donna:
THANK YOU!!!!
I really do believe it all happens for a reason, and every step we take has a lesson, like toilet paper or gum stuck to our shoes……this is why I have no regrets!
It was a good day yesterday!!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:43pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Erin,
TOWANDA!!!!! I am so proud of you and proud of your son and proud for you both.
I had this same kind of “I’m listening mom” the day after my son’s wife tried to kill him and he told me as he put his arms around me, “Mom, you are a prophet” (I hadn’t thought about him killing him or trying to but I didn’t think she was trustworthy the first day he brought her home almost 8 years before) and his “friend” the Trojan Horse P I had said from early on was a lying piece of Psychopath.
It is amazing sometimers how long it takes to get those validations from our kids–I think it was mark twain who said “it is amazing what my father learned between the time I was 15 and 25″ Yep, they start to see that we aren’t all bad, and that we don’t stay up nights just dreaming of ways to make their life not fun! LOL ROTFLMAO Yep, mine admitted they actually thought that! Which wasn’t true of course, but I iadmit to wondering a few times how I could “hide their bodies!” LOL
I’m sure it was uncomfortable for this woman at lunch to unload on you, but can you imagine (I bet you can) just how much she must have been suffering to unload on a person almost a complete stranger? OMG how she must have been hurting.
I hope the young lady will tell her mother and I hope her mother will be supportive of her rather than dismiss her feelings about this other woman. I remember finally getting up the guts to tell my egg donor about my sperm donor raping me when I was 19 and to this day, she still doesn’t believe me. She knows what a liar he is and yet she still chooses to believe HIM. She wouldn’t believe him if he said the world was round, but she believes him about THAT. It used to hurt me very much that she did not believe me. Now, I realize her belief or not doesn’t make a “tinker’s dam’s” worth of difference to me. I KNOW and that is all that matters.
At the time, I owned the shame of it, but no more. It was nothing I should have been ashamed of. Funny thing was, to his dying day he was fearful of anyone believing me, so fearful that he mounted a huge (in print even) smear campaign against me, but I have finally come to realize that I can only own the shame for things I have done wrong, the guilt for things I have done wrong….and then I must forgive myself and get on with the rest of my life. Someone else’s bad behavior is not mine to own, nor the guilt or shame of it. It doesn’t matter what others believe or don’t believe that makes it REAL. It is what I BELIEVE.
Erin my dear you are an inspiration to everyone here! I’m glad that your kids are listening, and spreading the word lilke ripples from a stone thrown in a pond. You may never even know the number of people that your experience will help not only through yourself but through the wisdom your children are gaining from YOUR EXAMPLE. (((HUGS)))) and always my prayers for you and everyone here at LF.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:19pm
amber says:
EB!!! That’s fantastic news!! I’m so happy for you! Maybe once I find the little shit that stole my car..I can send him your way and you can foster him for a while!
You do have amazing advice! I’m happy to hear that your son in expressing his feelings and opening up to you…That’s HUGE!! Congrats and keep working on him…I think he’s a lucky young man to have you as a mother!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:43pm
amber says:
Good news everybody!!!! Apparently the little shit that stole my car had seconds thoughts after I reported it stolen. His dad sent him a text message telling him that I had reported it stolen and I guess that scared him. He agreed to drop my car off at his dad’s on the condition that he didn’t have to talk to anyone. So he dropped it off and split. Whatever…it’s already been reported that he stole it, so now he’s on the run, just making the trouble he’s already in worse, and his luck will catch up with him eventually. It’s not my problem anymore!!! But I have my car back!!! And luckily he didn’t strip it…in fact his dad felt so bad, that he bought me a set of new hubcaps cuz I was missing 2..and he completely detailed it and did WAY more work on it that I was going to have done because I couldn’t afford to!!! I’m just glad to have it back in one piece. Seriously though…what was this kid thinking???? That he was going to get away with this?? Did he not think that I would report it?? I was just going to be ok with him stealing my car??? What a moron.
What a day…LOL…ok well thanks everyone again for all the support and advice. Just thought I’d update you with the good news! YAY!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:19pm
Hecates path says:
Erin… what a WONDERFUL post! enjoy your proud mama moment – you’ve earned it and so much more through the school of hard knocks! ITA with your son -you’d be a wonderful “shrinky dink” as my friend calls our psychiatrists. Even if med/psychol school doesn’t sound good to you, you’d also be one hell of a therapist, too! At the same time, you don’t need a degree or certificate to continue doing/giving therapy sessions with those who need it! It is absolutely wonderful that your son values you as a source of help and support for his friends in need… and that he is reflecting the genuine goodness, kindness, and truthfulness, that you have instilled in him! Keep up the good work, Erin…you do us proud!
HP
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:56pm
Isabell says:
ERIN!!!!!!!!!
I’m covered from head to two with goosbumps… Wheeeewwww what a moment for you. Rejoice, for your dedicated efforts are paying off. I feel like doing a victory dance. What a monumental breakthrough… YOU ARE AN AWESOME MOM!!!! Bravo, my dear!… BRAVO!!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:33pm
henry says:
god is great. beer is good. people are crazy.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:45pm
shabbychic says:
EB, your son sounds fabulous! He is right, you do help a lot of people!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:48pm
ErinBrock says:
Thanks guys! It has given me much to think about!
Shrinky dink…..I love it!!!
This is the same kids that….not so far away…..would say….OH MOM…..Don’t go all therapist on me!
I appreciate all of your kind words….Thank you!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:15pm
Isabell says:
Amber,
Great News! (though I was kinda hoping you’d end up with the kid’s cute little Honda for your trouble. ::grins::)
God works in mysterious ways. This kid needed a wake-up call, and you needed repairs done to your car. Go figure.
And, we all needed to be reminded when people do bad things to us, it is our obligation to do what is right, for ourselves, and not protect the preditor at our expense.
I didn’t report the physical abuse, the choking me until I nearly passed out, the bruises all over my back, and legs, the threats of being forced to live on the street, and worse against my life. It didn’t happen all the time, just more toward the end. He promised he would change. By the time I had enough, while he was in hand-cuffs, he lied through his teeth, and I was arrested (I was clearly, without a doubt, the one injured). What did I do? I went dead silent. A reflects from my earliest years. “If you tell anyone, much worse is going to happen to you.”
When we went to court and I pled not guilty… the threats came again, only this time, from him. “You are going to force your kids to testify against their own father?” The kids were the witnesses. They were so young. How could I do this to them? He cried, begged, made promises of sweeping change and enlightenment, and claimed if I didn’t plead gulty to one count of corporal punishment, it would be my fault our children’s lives would fall apart.
I didn’t do the right thing, for me. As noble as I believed my self sacrifice was, it was the worst mistake — EVER! Not only didn’t it protect my kids, I am still being haunted by it.
My daughter just read me pages from her journal that she had written on this fateful night. She was enraged at her father. She spelled out the abuse she witness her father inflict upon me. She spelled out her horror, watching me being put into a police car after what he had done to me, after she had to help me get up off the ground, where he had knocked me down. She wrote how she had never seen me do anything to striking back, or even try to defend myself.
Because I didn’t defend myself, legally. Because I didn’t report the abuse. Because I paid the price for his crime against me… I may lose this brand new job. In the new hire paperwork I filled out today, there was a concent form to be signed. They do extensive background checks: Criminal, credit, and DMV. Even though my charge was a mistermeanor, and has since been dismissed. It still shows up when doing a criminal background check, as dismissed. I am sick to my stomach.
After reading what my daughter was able to write in her journal back then, about what happened, my excuses for not reporting him, and then going silent when I had the chance, was not only at my expense, but at my kids expense, too.
Even if it feels unkind, scarry, or makes other’s uncomfortable, we have to tell the truth to the authorities, police, whomever, when we’ve been violated. PERIOD!!!!!!
Amber… I’m proud of you. You DID the RIGHT thing, for yourself.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:18pm
Isabell says:
henry…
LMAOROLF.. YOU said it!…
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:19pm
henry says:
shrinky dink it’s good when someone listen’s too us – especially when we are speaking from the school of hard knocks – way to go MOM~!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:31pm
amber says:
Thanks Isabell..I aprreciate it! And I was kinda hoping for the cute honda too!! LOL. But I can’t even complain compared to your story. You’re so strong for what you had to go through. I can’t even imagine..all I got was my crappy car stolen..and in the end it came back better than when i sent it to him. You’re right God does work in mysterious ways. I truly believe that. I’m glad that we have both been able to grow from our experiences and have learned to stick up for OURSELVES. I talked to a counselour today and that’s all I keep saying..is that it’s time to look out for ME. So I’m doing it little by little. Maybe this was God’s way of testing me to see if I would stick up for myself?!?!? And look..as soon as I did, I got my car back with new hubcaps!! LOL! I guess I’ll just pretend that’s what it was!! hehe.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:21am
skylar says:
Amber, you don’t have to pretend. that was God speaking to you. You did the right thing, you called the cops. Do you ever wonder why he wanted you to wait til THURSDAY?
The sociopath doesn’t fall far from the tree. I know your dad is friends with this guy but if his kid is a P and he was going to ask you to risk you asset,… that doesn’t speak highly of him.
God has saved my sorry ass so many times. I can’t take credit for anything good that has happened to me, only the bad.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:26am
amber says:
Sky..you’re totally right…I asked my dad the same thing…the kid was missing with my car since last week and his friend didn’t bother to call my dad and tell him anything!! My dad found out yesterday and called me after he found out!!! So he knew my car was stolen a week ago and didn’t bother to say a thing!!! You can guess that’s the last time he works on my car. And that’s my new phrase..lol..”the sociopath doesn’t fall far from the tree.” So true.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:51am
henry says:
Amber I had a car stolen years ago. Was at a shopping mall and when I went out to find my car it was gone. I looked and looked thinking maybe I forgot where I parked. I remember feeling so violated. It was somewhat the same feeling the x P gave me when I realized what he was. Just total violation. They found my car two weeks later and it was ok, trashed but ok. I sold it. I didn’t like the karma in the car. I am glad you have your wheels back and you did the right thing,,,hugz
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 2:09am
OxDrover says:
Dear Amber,
I hadn’t gotten that he knew th ecar was gone for days before he told your dad! AH!!!!!! I SEEeeeee SAID THE BLINID MAN AS HE PICKED UP HIS HAMMER AND SAW. Hummmmm???
Yep, the dad was protecting the kid fo rdays????—and maybe he even approved of the kid taking your car who knows and then the kid stayed out later than he was supposed to and the dad got lworried. Or maybe the kid took your car to go pull a robbery or drug deal. There could have been a lot worse things happen. There was some “reason” he was driving your car instead of the cute little Honda.
Well, at least you got the car back and fixed.
Makes me wonder though, if dad sent sonny a TEXT message and sonny came right back home, why didn’t DADDY DO THIS IN THE FIRST PLACE? Interesting…..
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:26am
amber says:
Thanks Henry and Oxy…And Oxy I know I had a ton of questions too. Yes the dad woke up and my car was gone..his son was gone…my key was gone…so he put two and two together…and I understand him wanting to protect his kid, but he should of told me or my dad immediately. And he said he DID call and call and text and text his son..(well at least that’s what he told us)…but when he finally told the kid that I KNEW it was gone and I reported it stolen, and that if he got pulled over he would have been taken to jail, I guess that made him think twice. But yes, I agree, something shady was going on…he was using my car for SOMETHING. And he put some horrible cherry air freshener in my car…and now it reaks like a public restroom and I can’t get the smell out…oh oh…and there is a framed picture in my trunk?!?!?!?! Not mine!! Looks like it is from a hotel?!?!?! I’m thinking the kid went on some drug binge for a week and needed my car to hide out.. I don’t know and I guess I won’t ever know the whole truth. And yes Henry, I feel violated too. Like EWWWWW…what was going on in MY car. I don’t like it either. Luckily, I have another car that I keep here for when my sister is home from England…and I’ve been driving that one. I think I’ll keep driving that one. LOL.
And I’m so paranoid..I keep thinking well what if the kid had a key duplicated and he got my address off paperwork in my car….and he decides to come steal it again?!?!??! I hope not. I hope he’s not that smart. But I am glad it’s home, because I have to pick my sister up today in fact!!! And she’ll be here for the next month or so, so she’ll have something to drive while she’s here….yay!!! So just glad it’s home and in better shape than when I sent it to him! HA! Hugs guys!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:41am
OxDrover says:
The air freshener is obviously to COVER UP some kind of smell they didn’t want to have someone smell. Check your car over for any signs of anything that was left in it. You might even get the cops to have a drug dog check it out. I would not want you to be pulled over and the cops get the drug dog in and find drugs stashed somewhere they forget to get it out of. I AM PARANOID but I think in some cases it pays to be!
As for the picture, I would take that to the cops too, and maybe they will match it to some kind of THEFT that has been reported. THAT KID WAS UP TO NO GOOD and my guess is he was using YOUR car for some CRIME.
You can get the door/ignition locks changed and that might be a GOOD IDEA. Shouldn’t cost too much and might be a LIFE SAVER down the road.
I’m sorry that folks think it is “natural” for a father/mother to cover up for their kids’ illegal activities (felony) I TURNED MY KID IN TO THE COPS when I caught him with stolen things, rather than cover it up. I think any parent who covers for their kid (or anyone else) is PART AND PARCEL to the CRIME itself. It is AGAINST the law to cover for a crime. The ONLY time you don’t HAVE TO TESTIFY is if it is your husband/wife, and even then I think it is IMMORAL to NOT turn in a criminal act, even if it is NOT illegal. Plus, if you do cover up you can be considered AN ACCOMPLICE, isn’t that right Matt?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
skylar says:
Amber, under what circumstances did you dad find out about the stolen vehicle?
Was he contacted by the mechanic or did he call the mechanic first?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 2:27pm
amber says:
My dad just showed up at his house…and low and behold the car wasnt there!! So the mechanic (Dave) was obviously trying to cover his son’s ass. So like you said the Sociopath doesn’t fall far from the tree…My dad is pretty pissed at his buddy because he knew his son stole it and didn’t tell either one of us…My dad told him, I know you’re trying to protect you’re son…but I have to protect my daughter..So needless to say…I think they’re friendship is pretty damaged..and now we need to find a new mechanic!! HA!
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 3:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Amber,
I am glad that your dad put your welfare and his friend’s behavior in the right slots.
I think having people for “friends” who will do DIS-honest things, even to “protect” their kid, is not a good idea.
At the very least, this man is ENABLING his son and in this case since car theft is a felony, as far as I am concerned, the DAD is as guilty as the kid for not calling you immediately with the news that the car had been stolen, and by whom.
So since your dad went there, the man was obviously going to completely cover it up if he could get his son to bring it back before you (or your father) knew.
DIS-hon4est behavior. NOPE! Not my friend, and I think your dad’s relationship with him ending is a good thing. At least maybe you can find an HONEST mechanic who won’t let your car be stolen and not report it. LOL
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 3:31pm
skylar says:
Amber, my concern is that he told you to give him til Thursday. What did he know about THURSDAY that he wasn’t telling you? I have a feeling the dad was in on it. He used your car for a burglary or drug deal and no one would have known if your dad hadn’t shown up.
If the car had been seen and reported at a crime, the dad would have reported it stolen but not by his son. When the car was recovered, he would’ve said he knew nothing about it. P’s always have lots of layers in their little schemes. The car was one of the layers but you interrupted it.
Jesus said you will know the tree by the fruit it bears. This guy and his kid are both p-fruits, I hope your dad stays far away from them. Tell your dad about their masks. They all wear the mask of sanity.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:08pm
ErinBrock says:
Amber:
I’m confused…..
You DID get your car back? Or you DO NOT have your car and sonny still hasn’t shown up with it?
I’m not sure where I got lost…..
BUT……Have the father pay for the locks to get changed….ignition and doors! Small price to pay for theft!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 6:48pm
Donna Andersen says:
Please do not engage with predators. I am deleting the Evil Clown conversation.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 8:39am
OxDrover says:
Erin,
GOOD idea about having sonny/daddy pay for the locks. Daddy should have secured the car, he didn’t tell amber or her father immediately, and only when he was “discovered” to be covering up. GOOD idea!
Thank you donna!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 9:41am
Stayingsane says:
Donna
Interesting! I resonate with the description:
‘The person reacts with EMOTIONAL AROUSAL when reminded of the event. The characteristic symptoms resulting from the event are REPEATED INTRUSIVE MEMORIES and a persistent negative change in mental well-being. ‘
But I don’t experience it as a disorder, nor would I label it so. From my own experience, 4 months no contact with P The intrusive memories are fading, arousal when mentioned lessening, I’m feeling a little “bored” with it now and am spending longer amounts of time not thinking about the trauma…if I had read this 2 months ago I would have been alarmed and convinced I was in the grip of some mental disorder, but I am sure the reasons for being “bitter” are okay as deeply held beliefs are thrown up into the air only to fall and land “differently” leaving me with a greater handle on reality…it’s not bitterness, it’s the experience of the truth which hurts terribly but needs to be faced, integrated and leaving me with a greater clarity and up dated less naive deeply held beliefs like ….there are people out there who have no remorse. I need to be aware and vigilant. I have been hurt terribly but now I really get it, and I walk down the street armed with this experience not embittered by it.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 10:04am
amber says:
Hey guys…I’ve been away for the last 24 hours..my sister just got home from England so it was nice to spend yesterday with her!! Thanks OX for filling Erin in. Yes..car is home…And Yes…dad’s friendship with bad, mechanic, enabling dad is over!! And good idea about having the locks and ignition changed. I’m going to look into that. And Sky..the mechanic dad didn’t ask for us to wait until Thursdsay…MY dad, trying to be a nice guy said he’d give him until Thursday and when my dad told me..I wasn’t too keen. I told my dad Dave was just as guilty as the son, and I didn’t think he deserved until Thursday and I reported it the next morning…then I informed Dave that I reported his son had stole it, and he relayed the message to the kid and I guess that scared him into bringing it back.. I’m just glad the whole thing is over…and when the cops finally catch up with the kid, then I’ll press charges. I’m not going to let him get away with this. So in time….it’ll catch up with him. Well, I’m off to hang out with my sister today. It’s good to have her here. I haven’t seen her in 3 months, so we’ve got some catching up to do. I’ll check in later!! Hope you all have a wonderful day!! HUGS!!!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 11:42am
OxDrover says:
Dear Stayingsane,
Your post is very empowering! Good way to look at things. Your vigilence to protect yourself now that you know that there ARE evil people out there is what I call “caution”–”once burned, twice shy”–my granny would have said.
Unfortunately, there are those people who STAY locked in the stage of bitterness and do not progress on to successful healing.
I can’t remember the name of the article, but Dr. Leedom did one on the “defeated mouse” that was interesting reserarch.
Glad you are here, Staying sane! Thanks for a good post!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:34pm
ICthruhim says:
Hi everyone, it was one year ago today that my SP attacked and assaulted my son in his bedroom. Today I actually spent the day in my son’s room, preparing to paint the walls and give the room a fresh new look. As I was doing that, I thought how different it felt in that room today as opposed to one year ago when there was screaming, tears, pain, and broken furniture. It has also been 1 year of NC! I’m proud of myself for that.
However, earlier in the week, the foster dad who is caring for my son in his theraputic mentoring home informed me that he had a visit from my SP’s parents asking him to prepare an affadavit basically describing how troubled my son is, etc so they can use it for the SP’s appeal. They say their son has been wrongfully convicted because we all lied. I still find hard to believe how they continue to support him 100%. Talk about enabling! Well they live in complete denial. Of course the foster dad refused to help.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 7:45pm
shabbychic says:
ICthruhim, Congrats on your 1 year of NC! You sound like you are doing so much better! I can just imagine the SP blaming your son for what happened, his parents sound as dumb as nails. Yea for the foster dad!! I hope your son is feeling better also. What a good idea to paint the walls!!!!!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 8:10pm
Isabell says:
Stayingsane,
“…it’s not bitterness, it’s the experience of the truth which hurts terribly but needs to be faced, integrated and leaving me with a greater clarity and up dated less naive deeply held beliefs like ….there are people out there who have no remorse. I need to be aware and vigilant. I have been hurt terribly but now I really get it, and I walk down the street armed with this experience not embittered by it.”
Insightful, empowering, profound!
Thank you.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 11:33pm
7stepstoheaven says:
I can see this really touched a nerve.
“The person’s response to the event must involve feelings of embitterment, rage, and helplessness. ”
I am weeping as I read this because I have felt this way my whole life. I am 53 years old, and I have suffered from depression, endometriosis, migraines, fibromyalgia and chronic
pain most of my life. I had a good career managing computer networks but was forced to retire on disability 10 years ago because of intractable pain. I was able to work most of the first 10 years with fibromyalgia, for which I am thankful.
I and the rest of my family have been devastated by psychopaths before I was even born. I have become bitter because now I can see in my siblings the same damaged patterns. I suddenly feel that I am surrounded by narcissists and sociopaths and the healing I expected will never take place. Am I paranoid? It is an awful feeling to know that most of your family will stab you in the back (and have) at the first opportunity. I do not know who to trust anymore.
When my mother was home for the summer before her senior year in college, she was raped by a “date.” Because this was in the 1950’s, she had to carry the child to term and give it up for adoption. Although her family was supportive, she felt a lot of shame, because she basically had to “hide” from society during the pregnancy. She felt she was “damaged goods,” which I think set her up for exploitation by other sociopaths. She met my father through a friend when he was still in med school, was completely charmed by him (he was a musician and the life of the party) and got married. She also has some narcissistic tendencies – a predilection for rage if you made her angry.
My father was a drunken sociopath (and psychiatrist) who beat my mother constantly – until her face was so punched up she would not leave the house. I was the first child, then my two younger sisters were born before he died in an auto crash when I was seven, one sister five, and the youngest not even two. She tells me stories like (when I was a baby): “He chased me around the house with a knife and said he was going to kill me. I ran to a neighbors, he was then taken in chains to the navy brig,” leaving me to wonder “where was I when this was happening?” He also tried to commit suicide numerous times.
I asked her yesterday “Did my father ever tell you he was sorry after these incidents?” and she said not at all, he acted like it didn’t happen. I guess he could ignore her black-and-blue face. That’s just when I decided, just yesterday, that he was indeed a sociopath.
I know I suffer from delayed and chronic PTSD. My sister,
who was only five when my father died, remembers a lot of things that I have no memory of. I have only 2 memories – one when I was at least 6 – I was standing ouside of my house afraid to go in, because there was yelling and the crash of things breaking through the kitchen window. Another memory came back to me a couple of years ago – in the middle of the day on a weekend, I remember hiding in a closet while there was yelling going on down the hallway in my parents room. I was in there with a pair of blunt scissors, making small even cuts into the hem of a blue dress I had. I think I remember this because I wore that blue dress for several years, apparently because my mother never noticed the cuts. The most vivid memory of this blue dress being that I was sent home from school in the fifth grade because the dress was too short. They were trying to outlaw miniskirts but I was just a skinny late- bloomer wearing a dress she had outgrown. Somehow the existence of that blue dress connects my memories together – memories of fear, shame and humiliation.
I also remember (almost a pre-verbal memory)of dissociating into a shaft of sunlight coming into a window onto the floor, and I was trying to get “a piece of sun.” I can dissociate with the best of ‘em. I do it all the time now because it is useful when my pain gets to be unbearable. I take some meds but all pain meds exacerbate my depression. It is hard to have much of a life when you can’t leave the house for 3 or 4 days at a time.
About 2 years after my father died, my mother remarried. He was just getting out of the air force, tall, handsome, charming, and 10 years younger. She was struggling to work and raise 3 children after being widowed, so she was eager to find someone to help her. He replaced my father, teaching me how to ride a bike, going camping, hiking and sailing with me, and brought a younger crowd of interesting visitors to my house. He bought me my first surfboard, wetsuit, and fancy french racing bike. He taught me how to drive. I did however, resent the way my mother catered to his needs before any of us kids, but I thought as a familiy we were having a pretty good life. My mother had his child, a son, when I was thirteen years old, and he was doted on by all of his sisters.
When I was nineteen and away at college, the truth came out. First, he left my mom high and dry for a coworker who abandoned her infant son for him (he’s probably in jail now from what I have heard). My mother had inherited some money from my grandmother and he (and my mom) managed to spend it all. All she had left was a 28-foot boat to sell. I had to go to the SocSecurity office to have my father’s death benefits put back in my name so I could finish school. No one had told me what was happening, but I managed to borrrow some money to pay for that semester’s books. My mom still had my younger sister, about sixteen, and my younger brother, about seven, to raise. My oldest sister became depressed and suicidal for a time – she now works as a psych nurse.
I remember this moment with such clarity – after the death of my father, this was a turning point in my life. My 17-year old sister sat on the couch with me, and told me that this man had sexually abused my little sister from the time she was THREE YEARS OLD!! This was happening in the family I was living with – six people in a three-bedroom house. What was most devastating to me was that I thought he was a good stepfather, although I had begun to see some flaws on the money-management side. This was in the late 1970’s, before sexual abuse was a household word. I had never heard of such a thing,
or even imagined such a thing.
I have never been so enraged in my life. I had fantasies of getting a gun and shooting him. My youngest sister became an
alcoholic when she grew up, and had a mental breakdown in college, which we all supported her through. However, she was so brilliant that she ended up in med school, and is now a forensic psychiatrist, who idolizes our real father. She is so deeply damaged, but she has a brilliant facade. She manipulated my other sister into cutting me out of the family, because of a chat I had with her on the phone – she sent me the coldest email I have ever received “I cannot allow my family to have anything to do with you because you are an alcoholic, slurring your words when I spoke to you on the phone.” I who never drink more than 2, was in intractable pain when she spoke with me, going through several failed surgeries to get endometriosis under control. It was next to my bowel, outside of my uterus – the pain was agonizing and horrible.
This event sent me back into therapy for three years, and I have recovered to the best of my ability. I used to visit my younger sister when she was pregnant and raising her 2 sons. Then bam,
it was over. I was the doting aunt, never did anything innapropriate on my visits. But my other sister followed her lead, because she thinks my youngest sister is smarter.
“I asked her, when she said I was an alcoholic, you knew better. Why didn’t you stand up for me?” She did not have a good answer. She allowed herself to be manipulated by a sociopath, which my youngest sister clearly is. As a result of this, I have not seen my niece and 4 nephews in five years (both families live in another state.) My youngest sister also wrote my mother out of her life for ten years – partly because of her also sociopathic husband she has now divorced. As soon as she was divorcing him, she wanted to renew contact with my mother. My mother was very ill and in the hospital near death a few years ago, and she never contacted her at all.
My younger brother is an irresponsible narcissist, charming and
full of love when you see him, making promises he doesn’t keep,
entering disastrous relationships on a whim. He never returns my phone calls or email, maybe because he owes me money! He hasn’t told his girlfriend that he is still married and paying support to a woman we thought he divorced years ago. I am not going to perpetuate anyone else’s lie, no matter who it is, because I like this girl.
And yesterday I learned that my older sister’s marriage of 18 years is on the verge of breaking up because her house-husband, who we all liked, is now becoming an untrustworthy
person and drinking alcohol to excess, not coming home, etc. She wanted them to enter counseling but he will not participate, which is the death knell, I expect. This flabbergasts me, because who would expect their husband to become an unstable alcoholic after so many years of marriage?
My first marriage of 8 years was to a deadbeat narcissist, who ruined my initial career and financially ruined me. I married him after the shock of my stepfather’s incest because I did not trust my own judgement any more and was terrified of dating anybody else. I remember looking at him while he was sleeping and thinking, “are you capable of doing something like this too?”
I had absolutely no way to know how to ever trust anyone again.
How could this incest be happening in my own home for 10 years and I did not ever suspect a thing? My mother came home one day when the youngest, at age ten, tried to commit suicide by eating oleander leaves. My mother begged her to tell her what was wrong, but she would not say anything. Who knows what my stepfather threatened her with to keep her from telling?
I am close to my mother despite all of this because she is the only person in my family that I would trust. I would never want any of these people to have any control over my life because they have been so nasty almost without provocation. This scares me because I am very disabled and could use some help, but it won’t be from any of them.
I am now newly burned with a one-month email and real-life relationship to a charming, outwardly respectable man who I felt I had so much in common with. When I went to visit him a couple of weeks ago it became obvious to me. I started to get muscle spasms in my neck after a day and a half, when it became obvious that he was incapable of intimacy or any real feeling for others. He paraded me around his town like a trophy, and it really disgusted me. Anyone who spent any time with him was going to have to live under his rules, and his agenda. I’m not a submissive southern girl, so I bristled at that, then wondered who could spend any quality time with this man?
He spoke of old “girlfriends” like they were a cast of thousands.
I should have seen trouble immediately, and in hindsight I did,
but was too flattered and infatuated to pay attention. It did not last long but it seemed to take everything out of me.
Yes, I am very bitter. I have a difficult time seeing any good people in life. I will never really trust anyone again ever. If I see someone who is doing good things in the community, my first thought is – “but what is the picture of his dark, malevolent underbelly?” i AM IN MENTAL PAIN AND SUFFERING EVERYDAY BECAUSE IF I THINK OF MY FAMILY ALL I CAN SEE ARE THE LIES, THE BETRAYALS, THE MANIPULATIONS. I have tried very hard to heal myself but I am beginning to believe it will never be possible.
Thank you folks for being here. At least I can let go of some of these dark emotions.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 3:38pm
OxDrover says:
Dear 7steps,
You are very articulate about your situation and your life. I’m sorry that you have had so much trouble and drama in your life. I can understand why you would be bitter. However, I don’t think bitterness as a way of life is the way any of us would choose to live if there is an alternative, and I think there is.
I think there is opportunity for healing at any age (I’m 62 and also grew up in a “covey” of Ps) as long as your mental facilties are intact, and yours obviously are, so i would suggest that you stay around here and read the archived articles.
Again, welcome.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 6:03pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest Oxy, Just wanted to say a big “Thank you!” again for all your helpful advice. Im not there yet, but Im on my way!
Yes, I did make list of things to be grateful for and its very long! Im so blessed. yesterday our new “adopted” adult kids came for lunch, and what a wonderful day we all had! David cooked marinated chicken kebabs in plum sauce on the Barbie, and they were YUM! I did a big bowl of fried rice, salad, grilled bell pepprs in olive oil, garlic and basil, with Naan bread, and after we had waffles on our new waffle machine, with strawberries and ice cream, then coffee and mint chocs. Abbas is over 6 feet, witha huge appetite, as he works so hard.Roya does too,she is training to be a hairdresser, and does 3 days at tech and 3 as an unpaid apprentice in a hair salon. She is doing very well. They are so sweet, loving, and appreciative. Abbas always hugs me and says,”Thanks for everything Mum! We love you!” Roya too, hugs and kisses us all the time. And they are such fun, and
we laugh a lot together! David and I are making up for 25 years of no love from my 2 P daughters. Now we have areal loving family who appreciate us, and it feels so GOOD! They are coming over for xmas day, and also new Year, when theye are going to stay overnight.So, I wont be dreading Xmas this year! My lovely son in law is bringing the 3 kids over in the new year, so Ill save their gifts till then. God is good.
Trying hard NOT to think of my P daughters! {you can bet both your asses, they wont be thinking of me
) Yea I got told that by many including the Police here, but unfortunately he is the Persuader and no doubt he has got the school to believe him that Im just an insane bitter bitch!
What Im saying though, is just be aware of the tremendous stress, particularly if the P has family and friends there who will back up the P and want to kill you, and more so if you live on your own as I do. I could never go through it again.
Plus, theres some cultural differences between the UK and Denmark. Denmark is too open for its own good. Im sorry but its wrong for a man of 25 to want to date a girl of 15. as she apparently was when they actually started “dating”. He is now nearly 40, but I dont think his taste has changed …. And its also wrong, that a man who can think about starting up a sex business, even if its legal here, can go into a school and teach kids …. Its just so NOT right.
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 2:55pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Hello all,
This is my first post. I’ve been reading and learning so much. First, my heart goes out to everyone here. So many of us are carrying the psychological scars as the result of various forms of abuse from these viscious and evil individuals. As you can see by my user name, my lover was a victim of a female sociopath, and he is still trying to heal. I’ve come here in hopes of gaining some understanding in what he is experiencing, and what I can do to support him.
That being said, I have to wonder about some of the things I’ve read in the article above, pertaining to this:
“The reason is that PTSD technically applies to only to situations that are “life-threatening.” PTSD is an anxiety disorder as opposed to an “adjustment disorder” and some symptoms that victims have are not based in “anxiety.””
While I agree that some of the symptoms exhibited by victims of sociopaths (I assume that the “S” I se in many posts stands for sociopaths?), I believe that the actions of sociopaths is absolutely and completely life-threatening. The sociopath violates the core beliefs of his or her victims, causing severe emotional and psychological distress, which threatens the victim’s sense of self; this, to me, is life-threatening.
As the S plays the psychological games, the psyche of the victims (I hope the use of the word victim is not seen as insulting. I see the ones who are taken in by sociopaths no different from the victims of violent crimes. I mean no disrespect toward anyone who has suffered.) are being damaged in ways that other people will never see, experience or comprehend.
I believe that individuals who are victimized can and do feel as though they are in a life-threatening situation, regardless of being in actual physical danger. The damage done by way of psychological and emotional abuse shakes one to their very core, and causes one to question everything about themselves.
I feel that we tend to take people at their word, we want to believe that there is goodness within those we associate with, and that those who love us and whom we love in return have our best interests at heart. Therefore, as the S begins weaving their web of lies, deceit, and psychological torture, we buy into it and believe it, because after all – we love the facade that we are presented with, and that facade “loves” us. It is human nature for us to take our loved one at his or her word, that we naturally believe in the one we love, and that we take their words to heart. The words and actions of the S begin to chip away at who we are within our souls.
This is why I believe that PTSD is an apt diagnosis for what is experienced by those who have been crushed by the actions of a sociopath.
“Just as PTSD is thought to result from the threat of loss of life, PTED results from a different kind of threat. Dr. Linden states regarding PTED, “The core pathogenic mechanism is not the provocation of anxiety, but a violation of basic beliefs. This threat to deeply held beliefs, acts upon the patient as a powerful psychological shock, which triggers a prolonged feeling of embitterment and injustice.”
For victims of sociopath’s the sociopath’s behavior violates core beliefs about human nature and sense of safety. ”
The sociopath kills their victims one word and one action at a time.
Having been the victim of psychological and emotional abuse as a child, I believe that words wound much more deeply and completely than physical injuries ever have.
Being emotionally abused causes one to question EVERYTHING. I questioned everything about myself, my reason for existing, and whether or not my soul deserved to be on this earth. My abuse was at the hands of my father, the one a little girl should be able to look to for love and protection, not the one who nearly broke my spirit, my mind, and my soul. My father threw me away completely when I was a teenager, but I hid from him and everyone else the fire inside me, the fact that no matter what he did to me, or what anyone else did to me, I knew I would never throw myself away. I knew there was goodness in my soul, and something inside me told me that I was not worthless, useless and a piece of sh#t and all the other horrible things that were drilled into me for my entire life.
I guess what I’m trying to express here that there are many ways of taking someone’s life – just because the physical body may appear to be functioning perfectly fine, it doesn’t mean that the spirit and soul residing within that body has not been wounded to the point of emotional and psychological death.
I wish you all peace, healing and love.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 7:32pm
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
Thank you for your post, and welcome here. You also are a (former) victim, and obviously have a great deal of empathy for victims, as well as some understanding of actually being a victim.
While you can support your lover as he heals, the healing is up to him. He must do that for himself. We all do and healing is a “do it yourself” project.
I don’t know how long he has been out of the relationship, but it takes time and a great deal of work to repari the damage done to our “souls”—
I would suggest that you encourage him/her to come here to LF and to read and read and learn, KNOWLEDGE is POWER and we must retake our power back from them.
Again, welcome to LF, it is a healing place.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 11:23pm
geminigirl says:
my love s avictim
, Both of my adult daughters are female sociopaths, and I can tell you I have finally, thanks to all Ive learned on LF come to beieve finally I cant help them but need to avoid them both for the rest of my life. I have learned so much since june his year, when I first found this wonderful healing support group.
I learned about ‘gaslighting’ which Id never hear of,ie, trying to convince you black is white and up is down, totally crazy making,.I didnt know it had a name. I feel that FINALLY Im emerging from a 30 year long nightmare with them. Ive suffered physical.mental, and emotional abuse from them.{Physical abuse only from one of them.}For years and years I gave and gave and gave,trying in vain to buy their love, I now see they never ever loved me, they only used me.If I give in and contact the older one again, I know it will destroy me. Im finally emerging into a nice, peaceful, sane, normal life, and I dont miss the drama, the lies, the con tricks, the abuse, the cruelty. truly, I think in some ways women psychopaths are as bad as if not worse than men.All the very best to you both, and Love, gem.
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 11:36pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Dear Oxy,
Thank you for your kind words. I’ve read so many of your posts, and you have a great deal of wisdom to offer.
As a victim of a different type of abuse (although I need to research more – my father may well have been a sociopath) I do understand that we all heal at our own pace, and in our own manner. My purpose here is to learn more about the sick individuals who prey upon those who love them, and to understand the depth of my lover’s pain.
I can sometimes see a haunted look in his eyes, and it touches me deeply, but it also chills me. I know most of his story, but I know there is still so much he hasn’t told me. I don’t pry, and I listen any time he needs to talk, and more importantly, I believe him. I don’t know how many people know the details of what happened, and I don’t know how many of those people believe what she did to him. But I do.
I want to be supportive to him as he heals his heart and soul…and one day, when he’s clawed his way out of the depths of hell, I hope he looks my way. I hope he sees the feelings inside me that I have for him, that my feelings are real, and that my heart is pure. Whomever he gives his heart to once it heals will be a lucky woman indeed; if that woman is me, I will cherish his heart as the precious gift it is – I see the beauty that is inside him. If it is not me, then I wish him to find the woman who loves him purely, deeply, and forever.
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Tuesday, 17 November 2009 @ 7:20pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Dear Gem,
Thank you for your love and support. I haven’t read your story, so I don’t know the details, however I can feel the pain your words contain. Is there an area on the site where members have posted their stories? I am still feeling my way around the site trying to figure out what and where everything is. All I have read so far is both heartbreaking, and heartwarming – so many have been victimized, but so many are finding that fighting spirit deep within and are battling their personal demons very well.
I have a story of witnessing and being victim of many years of abuse at the hands of my father. Perhaps I will share it one day, and gain some insight into myself.
As a woman, I know the special bond between a mother and her daughter, and while it’s horrible that the bonds between you and your daughters have been severed, it sounds as though you are doing well in your decision to sever that tie. You sound as though you are a very strong and beautiful woman, and that you are healing from your pain and heartache.
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Tuesday, 17 November 2009 @ 7:37pm
geminigirl says:
Dear mylover,
if you are interested in my story, the main points about it are on the following blogs. Hope it doesnt bore you!
They are on1} Psychopathy in Women, Aug. 28th 09.
“Feeling guilty about a sociopathic stepson @nd July,09.{My blog was on 9th July,09].
“Fri, 31st july,09.and 2nd august,09″.We can only do what we can do”‘
“After the sociopath, how do we heal?” part 2 .22nd june,23rd june,26th june,30th June,{2 blogs of mine.}
plus 6th july,09.
My main stories are all in this blog,”After the sociopath, how do we heal?
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Tuesday, 17 November 2009 @ 11:30pm
geminigirl says:
I lost part of this blog, but the main stories of mine are in the blog, “After the sociopath, how do we heal” part 10, Forgiving.
the dates again are 16th,17th,18th,19th 20th,21st June,09. The longest one being on Thurs. 18th June, 09 and fri. 19th June.also 23rd june,and 9th and 10 th of July in the same blog.
Love,
GemXX
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Tuesday, 17 November 2009 @ 11:36pm
geminigirl says:
Mylover,
Also if you are interested, right at the beginning when I first left my abusive P husband, this blog is on :
“Recovering from the sociopath,acceptance,and focussing on now.”
Date of my blog,16th November, 09.
love,Gem.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 17 November 2009 @ 11:43pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Thank you Gem. I will certainly read them tomorrow.
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Wednesday, 18 November 2009 @ 12:18am
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
Even though your friend/lover has been abused, it is important that he not abuse in return, or tha tyou excuse any abuse of you by him.
I am not saying this is the case with your lover, but it is common practice for psychopaths to POSE AS VICTIMS when in fact, they are the abusers themselves, or they are co-abusers in a relationship where both parties are abusers, and they just happened to get the worst of it.
In the book “The Sociopath next door” which I recommend you read, the author poses that when you are feeling “pity” for someone, many tmies (she says always) are dealing with a psychopath.
Not too long ago myself, I was approached by a woman who was an “abuse victim” as she presented herself, but was in fact, an abuser herself, looking for my “pity” for her, to make me vulnerable to her using me.
It is important that though we feel empathy for victims of abuse, that we also not enable them to depend on others for their healing, and do not excuse bad behavior in them because they have “formerly been victims.” It is not uncommon for abusive and dysfunctional relationships to be of two abusers using each other.
I’m not saying that this is the case with your friend/lover, but just be AWARE of this being the case. One of the common things is that a psychopath will present their last lover (who had tossed them out or whom they had deserted) as the “wicked witch of the west” in a lying smear campaign and then present themselves as this very pitiful victim who was robbed—-here on LF we accept a bloggers word that they were victimized, but occasionally someone comes here who is pretty obviously an “abused-abuser,” but others can cloak themselves in “pretty words” on the computer, while in real life they themselves are a psychopath wearing a very well designed mask.
That is one reason that meeting someone on the internet for dating is so dangerous as these people can present themselves under any guise through the computer.
I hope for your sake that your friend/lover is not a covert psychopath presenting as a victim, and I hope for his sake, assuming he is genuine, that he is able to heal. If he is truly a victim, it may take him a good while to sort things out. For victims, it is usually not a good idea to get into another relationship for quite some time. The healing isn’t just about the past relationship, but is about our own growth.
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Wednesday, 18 November 2009 @ 11:32am
myloverwasavictim says:
Dear Oxy,
I’m sorry I haven’t responded sooner. I read your words shortly after you posted them, and they’ve certainly given me pause.
I do have a great deal of thinking and soul searching to do, and I appreciate your insight. You are a wonderful source of support. Thank you.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 1:47pm
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
The thing is with [psychopaths you never know what you are seeing? Is it real or fake? Are they truly a victim, or are they an abuser POSING as a victim?
Here on LF we generally accept someone who blogs here as WHAT THEY SAY THEY ARE, but occasionally a P-troll from the “let’s pull LF’s chains and lulz them” comes here “posing” as a victim or just another blogger, but it soon becomes apparent that they are here to argue and cause trouble. We can generally spot them rather quickly though. (that’s why we have the report abusive comment” button) and until donna gets time to block them we DO NOT RESPOND to them or their “hooks” that they throw out to get “debate” going or smear someone.
Once came on once and called me a “woman hater” thinking my screen name was male. LOL cute! LOL
I cannot even begin to know if your friend/lover is a true victim or a pseudo-fictim, a P in disguise…something you said about him though that made me think you have a great deal of PITY for him and his “plight”—-and PITY is an emotion that Psychopaths LOVE to play on. Oh, are they EVER good at getting others to pity them.
Henry’s x BF-P came to him with this long pitiful tale of woe, his x threw him out on the street with notbing, no place to stay, no car, ya da, ya da, then the next thing you know he has moved in, Henry is supporting him, buys him a car and so on, then the guy is back to cheating again….fast forward 3 years, Henry had 3 years of hell all the while feeling PITY for this poor guy. NO MORE.
So, I was just giving you a word to the wise about th e”pity play” and there was just something about your post made me think you might be feeling that—wanting to “fix” this gravely injured person who has been devestated by a mean old P.
The thing is, you can give someone things, but you canot “Heip” them, they must HELP THEMSELVES. HEAL THEMSELVES. I took in a woman who presented herself as a victim, literally living in her car…she stayed here on my farm for several months. She always came up with excuses why she could not “help” around here and 1,000 excuses why she could not get a job—the moon was full, it was cloudy, the day was thursday, or it might rain. I finally realized what was going on and that what she wanted was my PITY and for me to provide her a living. doesn’t work that way. I will give people an OPPORTUNITY to help themselves, but I can’t “help” them, and if they show no interest in helping themselves, the OPPORTUNITIES I PRESENT dry up immediately. I will NOT “enable” someone else to live without any effort on their part, or take over the things that are there responsibility to do for themselves.
Many well meaning people get taken in by sob stories of needyness by con men/women. I am one of those bleeding hearts who has been taken in more than my share, but I am LEARNING and setting boundaries now. My only responsibility is ME, your only responsibility is YOU (except in the case of very young children that you are responsible for) and that is the way it should be.
I’m glad yo uare here and I suggest that you learn and read the wonderful articles here in the archives. I have a feeling that you are a caring and compassionate woman, as well as a bright one, and that makes you the PERFECT target for a P looking for a free ride posing as a victim. BTW a “smear campaign” against all former lovers and spouses and painting them as crazy, mean, psychopathic etc. is very standard operating procedure for the Psychopath. They paint the VICTIM as crazy and themselves as pitiful.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 3:03pm
myloverwasavictim says:
Dearest Oxy,
I am going to treat very carefully while being involved with my friend, absolutely. I didn’t intend for my words to convey pity for him – the problem is that I am on the verge of falling in love with him, but the time is not right – he still needs to heal and get past his ordeal. I feel compassion and empathy for him; his eyes show how haunted he still is on the days when he relives what he went through.
One big thing I didn’t mention in my previous posts is that I know of the sociopath who victimized my lover; his story is real, and the depth of her deception, lies and manipulation is immeasurable. I had her number within a few weeks.
I have been reading many of the articles written here, as well as the posts, and I’m learning so much. Had I not been victimized by a lover when I was 18, I would never have believed that people like this exist. No one believed what I went through, and I had no support from anyone as I tried to heal all those years ago. When I would tell the stories of my S giving my house keys to his friends, telling them I was alone and to go to my apartment and f*ck me, everyone thought I was nuts, and was a liar. and that is just a tiny portion of the things that were done to me. I was completely taken in by my S, and it took me a few years before I could have a healthy relationship with a man.
Thank you, Oxy, for caring. You truly are a kind and loving woman.
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 5:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
I hear you GF! I am glad that you know the score on the X-female P, that does help. Just make sure that any feelings you have for him are based on a HEALTHY relationship. He may not be able at this point to actually have a HEALTHY relationship if he is pretty RAW.
Assuming that he is a true victim, HE IS THE ONE who must figure out why he was a victim….that is the pivotal thing.
If the abuse was obvious to him (rather than blindsiding him) then why did he stay in an abusive relationship? We (most of us) saw RED FLAGS and didn’t run like we “should have” but stayed and tried to fix the situation, got hooked into feeling responsible fo rthe relationship etc etc. Many of us grew up in UNhealthy homes, previous relationships, etc.
We can’t fix the P but we have to FIX ourselves, learn to set boundaries, etc. That is harder for some of us than others.
I may throw “stones” but believe me I have thrown mroe stones at myself than I have others here on this blog! Like I used to tell my kids when they were younger, “If you can think of it, I DID it. If you can imagnie a mistake, I MADE it!”
Unfortunately, I didn’t learn from my mistakes and I had several UNhealthy relationships–with bosses, employees, my P son, my P sperm donor, my egg donor, friends, lovers, etc. I was the queen of dysfunction—the queen of ’self sacrifice” for somene else—I just FORGOT that it is OK to take care of ME FIRST and also if I don’t take care of myself, then I can’t help anyone else either. Life is hard, she gives the tests first and the lessons afterwards. I didn’t get the lessons even when I flunked the tests!
Now, at nearly 63, I am FINALLY GETTING IT THROUGH MY THICK SKULL as MaryJo B said in the title of her book. I am not critical of anyone else for “not getting it” right away, but that doesn’t mean I won’t do my best to educate them! And for free yet! LOL I wish someone had bashed in my skull with the cyber skillet and said “wake up! Get real! Take care of YOU” and the few people who QUIETLY tried I didn’t listen to, so sometimes it takes a wake up call, like the old joke about “treating the mule with kindness —but first you have to hit him with a 2 x 4 to GET HIS ATTENTION” LOL Sometimes it takes ME a good clout up side th ehead to get my attention. Letting our pity overcome our good sense is never a good thing. No one wants to help others help themselves mroe than I do, but I finally realized I can only encourage, educate, and support them, but I can’t DO it for them. Just like the horse, I can lead them to the water, but they have to drink it for themselves.
I’m really glad you are here. Since you were victimized (even so long ago) it always helps I think to go back and validate that victimization and see where we are with it. Sometimes we push it down and really don’t resolve it, just like putting a throw rug over a dog doo mess in the living room, we just keep covering it but, but it still stinks and until we really CLEAN it out, it really does’t go away. Some of the piles of my messes were three feet high, but I am throwing out the old, mopping it up, and sweeping and cleaning my “human house” so that it is much more pleasant to live here inside my skin. (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 19 November 2009 @ 7:07pm
lostandfearful says:
this is my first post here. i wrote a note to Donna yesterday. i am emotionally and physiologically caught by a fraud perpetuated via the internet… a ‘relationship’ with a group of people that lasted several months. strangely enough, i have found the person. but i am having a hard time trusting even that – articles in a west coast newspaper and several intertwining blogs – now i trust nothing. and this is where the ‘complex’ diagnosis comes in: my base beliefs about my safety have been shaken and i am wanting revenge in a VERY serious way. My life really needs my attention. Badly. And I am consumed by this scam and watching ‘them’ continue to operate on the website i met ‘him’ on.
I am angry in a way that i don’t remember touching in my life. I am angry at anyone who is making my life difficult (and there are some serious things that need my calm), and am angry, out of proportion at those I see as not helping me. I see that my sense of responsibility has become skewed – I was so responsible for ‘him’ for months and it feels like i am angry cause there was no pay off – that i was ripped off. I am being quite blunt here. I suspect i sound demented. I think I AM a bit demented.
One woman, pretending to be a group of people…sock puppets all. I endured the ‘death’ of the person I cared for. Then I endured his resurrection and the threats that have come since then. And now that I KNOW who it is, i endure the intense desire to out her. i feel quite wild. and helpless and hopeless.
i really want help. and it is hard to find. bitter. yes. very. not just this – the bitter now has spread across all difficulties. i feel inense anger toward anyone who has lied to me in any way – and intense fear as to THEIR motivations for ding so.
okay, enough rant. this is what it is like inside my skin right now.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:54am
skylar says:
lost and fearful,
sorry for your experience with P’s. I don’t have much time to chat right now but I will tell you one thing that might help. They NEED, CRAVE, DESIRE, attention and emotion. DON’T GIVE THEM ANY. Don’t HAVE any toward them. Anger and revenge is just as good to them as love, pity, kindness. It doesn’t matter what kind of emotion you give them. What they want is any kind of RESPONSE. They have a strange craving for control and manipulation: push this button, get that response. Don’t give them that. They hate laughter. They hate no contact. They hate abandonment – especially sudden, out of the blue abandonment. They hate boring, anything boring (we call it gray rock) drives them crazy. Give them the things they hate and grow peace in the fact that it makes them suffer: abandonment, no contact, laughter, or boring. Pretty much in that order of effectiveness. Good luck, you are loved here. don’t worry.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lostand fearfull,
Welcoome to love fraud. the FRAUD you have endured is very “bitter” and angry making…your feelings of being cooned, swindled, defrauded are normal. Your reactions to these things are normal…we all I think when we discovered we had been conned felt in a similar way–and sort of demented too.
The desire for revenge at having been defrauded is also normal, but acting on iit or the other things our anger, our rage is not usually a good thing.
We can’t undo the past, but if the person who did this to you did so in a way that is clearly ILLEGAL, contact the police.
Fraud is usually difficult to prosecute, but you might have a chance to do so.
I’m not sure how this one person, I assume, pretending to obe a “group” defrauded you, but obviously they succeeded at least for a time.
I suggest that you stay here and read and learn about con pe4ople, fraudesters, and psychopaths which will help you sort out some of this. Knowledge is power!
I’m sorry you qualify for membership in our “club” but glad you are here, this is a good place for recovery! God bless.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 1:19pm
justabouthealed says:
Skylar….your post is right on.
Here is what I WOULD write to the P I was involved with, coming up on the 45th anniversary of having first fallen in love with what he could have been, had he been a normal person.
Of course, he will never see this!The reference to the instrument only playing those few notes is from the excellent book “When You Love a Man Who Loves Himself” by Keith Campbell.
You have a personality disorder. Your instrument only plays excitement, admiration and power. Does not play empathy, compassion or caring. When you feel the rush of trying to win or win back a woman’s adoration, you think those emotions are real love and proclaim it so. Then, when her true intimacy and love begins to feel like control, manipulation and a prison to you….as true intimacy and love always DOES feel to you…. or just a new enticement comes along, you are cruel, feeling very justified, enjoying, LOVING the con (if you’ve pulled on and you usually have) enjoying inflicting pain on that lower species (to you ) known as woman. I no longer hate you, just pity you. You will always feel empty inside. You are emotionally retarded as surely as your sister is mentally retarded. Oh, what joy and passion and sorrow and love and empathy you will never feel. I can remember a brief moment or two, when in deep grief over the death of a loved one, I have felt your kind of emptiness….and it is truly a horrible, horrible feeling. My heart goes out to you, but if I could put a prominent warning label on you for other people, I surely would.
____
He is the kind of P/N/S Bad Man who I think really believes a lot of his own lies. But there is also a part of him that is fully aware of what he is doing. He takes on whatever perception of himself serves him best at the moment. That he is a good man who just mistakes his emotions (blah!) or a skillful con artist. Actually he is both.
For me, getting over the bitterness involved coming to understand why he acts as he does….and then understanding what vulnerabilities in me allowed him to exploit me. I wanted DESPERATELY to be loved by a man, at any cost. Vulnerability one. Vulnerability two was paying attention to the bling of a narcissistic personality instead of the character of a man’s heart. Funny, at age 20 I was wiser than at age 56. I was not so desperate for love, and I was clearly focused on evaluating a man by his character, not his charm, self-assuredness, his status or potential status. I dumped pre-med guys for a newspaper boy studying to be a teacher. It was a wise choice.
But somehow, 36 years later, I lost my way. Partly because I knew my husband had lost his way too. I think we are back on the right path now, but the road is difficult at times.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 3:12pm
witsend says:
justabouthealed,
I seem to remember that you had mentioned sometime in the past of having foster children in your care.
Am I mistaken on this?
If not, can you please tell me something about this system. I know that many children end up in this system when they are taken away from their parents by social services, and similar situations. Do you know of any programs where people foster teenagers who no longer want to live under their parents roof or similar situations?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 8:03pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I need some brain storming ideas….I returned home from my show late last night and had good intentions of just coming home and being low key just as when I left….
I came home and the house reeked of urine because my small dog is afraid of my son and won’t go outdoors for him as he has left her outside for long lengths of time in the past…So basically she is afraid of him. He yells and screams at her (because she isn’t submissive to him and he can’t “control” her) and she is not used to be treated like this. So she is afraid of him, rightfully so. He stayed overnight with my older son and the dogs were fine in the morning because my older son came and fed them because he had a haircut appointment.
He really is out of control. He seems very angry.
I feel I can’t even leave the house to go to the store anymore for fear of what he might do while I am gone.
I have found out that he hasn’t found a place to stay. (when he is 17) He is finding that no one wants to take on a kid that won’t BE IN school. Naturally they don’t want him influencing their own kids that DO go to school. The place he was going when he ran away was a temporary “stay” and they won’t take him “full time” evidently either.
Because things aren’t going according to his “grand plan” he seems more agitated than usual. I had noticed this even before I left.
I believe he is angry because he feels stuck here and he is taking his anger out more aggresively (lots of yelling and controlling behavior) on the dogs and myself because he doesn’t want to be here. BUT he now talks as if he will be HERE (still at home) when they “kick him” out of school. And he is angry about THAT as well. Because he says he is still going to GO to school every day if he “wants” to…..Cause they can’t kick him out….
Any suggestions….??
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 8:35pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Sounds like he doesn’t like the reality he is finding instead of his grand scheme of things! Gosh, you mean the world doesn’t owe you a living? DUH?!
Now he is determined to go to school anyway? Like they can’t call the cops and have his lazy arse removed from school property? And I bet they will too. A drop out has no RIGHT to be there!
I will have to give this some thought! I’m just not sure what are even potential olptions. Legally or otherwise.
Is it possible for you to contact a “family practice” attorney and maybe get at least a consultation? About what your responsibility is for a “child” you cannot control?
It is obvious to me that if he won’t/can’t elave at 17, he won’t leave at 18 either or 19 or 20, he will hold you hostage with the “if you do this or that I will burn the house down” black mail routine. Of course you might point out to him that if he burns the house down he will have no place to stay either.
I think his idea of the treats is in order to CONTROL you, of course, but if he feels he has a RIGHT to live in your house, eat your food and so on, he won’t have to “leave” to be his “own boss”—-and what does that make YOU? A PRISONER IN YOUR OWN HOME.
Witty, I am not sure what your legal options are, but I have come to a point in my life, that I will not be anyone’s SLAVE or PRISONER of FEAR….It might be that you just have to (I am brain storming here) just find a time when he is gone, and move your stuff into a storage unit or two, rent a motel room and LEAVE, TURN OFF THE LIGHTS AND LEAVE HIM THERE IN THE EMPTY HOUSE by himself, cold and hungry. Ifr he burns it, he burns it. But how long can you live a PRISONER? A slave to his whims, feeling like you have a sword hanging over your head?
I finally got to the point that it wasnn’t worth it to “defend” my house and furniture—for a while son D actually (unbeknownst to me) stood guard over me at night with a gun)—I was fearful that they would burn my house down on my dead body, but I realized later, that they didn’t want to burn the house that they wanted the house. Anyway, though, the thing is, I couldn’t live like a prisoner or a slave any longer in fear.
I wish your older son “got it” better about his younger brother. Is there any possibility that you and he could sit down and talk, maybe to the counselor or the therapist together? Wit, you need some SUPPORT on this. the little chit needs to know he can’t bully you any more! threats or no threats, you can’t “placate him” any more, the more you let him get by with this stuff the worse I think he is going to become. Keep in mind though, that they are vengeful little chits too. So protect yourself. (((Hugs)))) You are always in my prayers.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:36pm
lostandfearful says:
ergghhh,, I lost kathleen hawks’ post on fugue states when I went to log in.
IT IS AWESOME. TY. Now, if i can ever find it again, it might help me dismantle something that has cycled through my life a few times that is definitely active for me in being scammed and duped.
ty again.
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Sunday, 22 November 2009 @ 11:55pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
It really does piss me off now that I did placate him for the time that I did now.
I was told to do that by the cop and I actually felt even before he (cop) told me this that it was the right thing to do under the circumstances. (when I thought he was leaving soon)
It seemed to make sense then because it seemed more dangerous to me for him to be so outwardly angry and hateful all the time. I just thought if he left on his own accord (the old “I’ll SHOW her” thing he seems so fond of) I thought it would be so much better because it would be harder for him to return, even when defeated in the “real world”. He would have to keep “showing me”.
I am pretty convinced (although not positive) that if my OLDER son would actually stand behind me and confront him (along with me) he would show my older son before long (maybe immediate) his true self. I think his act/mask would fall pretty quickly.
It wasn’t very long ago that no one had seen the side of him that I see. And little by little he has shown a part of that side to others recently. The at risk counselor at school saw a side of him she hadn’t seen before. I think the cop saw a very oppositional side of him not often seen by everyone.
I mean they haven’t seen nothing compared to what I see but it shows that when “confronted” by someone he looses his “act’” pretty quickly.
I just don’t know what the right thing to do now is.
My options suck no matter how I look at the situation. Personally I’m not sure leaving my house is something that would upset him. I think he might enjoy that. He would certainly enjoy it for awile.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
That’s the thing, they catch us between two or three BAD olptions and then WE are the ones that have to make the choice.
Basic bottom line though, is that in the future (after the 17th birthday) (1) he continues to live in your house and keep you like a prisoner/slave for as long as he wants to –years maybe (2) He voluntarily leaves (3) you have him evicted.
Since option number one isn’t I don’t think (I am putting words in your mouth here) ACCEPTABLE to you, there are only TWO other options available, either lhe leaves voluntarily or you have him evicted.
Now, it is also possible that as much as he hates you, the little chit is also afraid of going to jail, soooo, I think a plan might be to recruit your older son to help you, and back you up.
This may mean taking a day and going with your older son around to talk to the cop, to talk to the at risk counselor, to talk to your therapist, etc. and show him the evidence of your son’s out of control irrational behavior.. Then hope that your older son will back you up. If not, then you may have to resort to the attorney evicting him (that will take time) but in any case I would see what I could find out in the way of your rights with an attorney consultation.
I know the thought of abandoning your house is probably not the top on your list of things to do…believe me, I KNOW THAT FEELING when I took off in the RV. At the time I figured they would burn or destroy it. Fortunately they didn’t. But as long as he holds a “smoking gun” over your head with his threats it is either give in or DO something. Winter is coming up and you know, wihtout heat or electricity, running water or food that house might not be so nice in the wintertime. Once he is out, then change the locks go NC and don’t let him back in.
Find a large male roommate and rent out your sons room. Actually, maybe you know someone you could get to, or even hire to, move in with you for a whort period of timie to ENCOURAGE your son to leave! LOL I’m just brain storming here, but looks like to me that this is coming to a point with his 17th birthday. You know you are in my thoughts and prayers! (((hugs))))
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 10:28am
myloverwasavictim says:
Good morning to all the sweet LF posters,
Oxy, a special good morning to you!
I doubt that I will be posting anymore after today. I’ve been reading all the archives – any boy, do my eyes scream for relief
when I realized that my lover has posted here in the past.
Out of respect for his privacy, I don’t feel it’s right for me to be here. He needs the love and support of others on this site much more than I do, however I will come back at some point. I’ve found some very helpful information here to help deal with the issues I faced at the hands of a very abusive father, and a live-in lover when I was 17 years old.
I wish everyone on this site the strength, wisdom and support we all need to heal and be healthy, but more than anything else, I wish all of us the beautiful, true and lasting love that we all crave. I pray that we all find the one whom will accept the love we have to give as the precious and exquisite gift that it is, and that he or she return that love in kind.
With wishes of Peace, Healing and Love, I remain:
myloverwasavictim.
p.s.
If anyone would like to contact me off line, I would welcome your friendship. Not sure how I go about getting my information to those whom may want to stay in touch?
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:11pm
justabouthealed says:
Hi Witsend,
Yes, I did do foster care. What is available really varies by state. Unfortunately, the states are usually NOT good at pro-active care. In other words, if you formally “abandon” your child, then he could go into foster care. THEN there are families that yes, provide foster care for teens. But sometimes they are put in a group home. If you son is truly a P, he’d probably make sure to take care of himself there and not be a victim to some other boy. But I would advise against getting a charge of child abandonment against you.
The alternate way they can get into foster care is if your boy is arrested enough times, breaks parole, and the courts decided he cannot be controlled in the home, they will take custody without charging you of anything. In that case, they know the parent is doing all they can, but the boy is just unmanageable.
Maybe the principal could refer you to a social worker who might help you explore options. Just stress that you don’t feel you can manage him. Just like the principal could not either.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear My,
I’m sorry to see you leaving, but at the same time, I understand why you might think it would be more important for your lover to be here than for you to be, and yes, I imagine he does need the support. Since we have so very few men here that actually post, I’m not sure your lover is still a regular blogger here (though he may be a regular reader) but I would encourage him to come back here on a regular basis as I think the information and support here is the BEST on any blog/information site on the net (of all that I have visited for sure!)
You might also try some of the other sites on the net for yourself about dealing with absive parents. Believe me, that sets us up for becoming victims ourselves, by making us “normalize” abusive behavior, it also makes us I think Hyper-caregiving which gives us ini some cases tooo much empathy for others who appear hurt (and boy can the abusive Ps give a grand performance of being “wounded birds” when in fact, they are using that ploy to lure us closer to be able to get their tallons on our throats easier!
Godspeed and peace, love and happiness to you. Oxy
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 12:48pm
witsend says:
Justabouthealed,
Thank you for that information.
No, I do not want to have a charge of child abandonment against me. I morally don’t believe I could do this anyways EVEN as desperate as I am feeling at this moment.
I know in my heart that he already has abandonment issues and this is at the very core of his mental state as well. So I just couldn’t do that. His perception is what it is, but it is far from reality. I wouldn’t feel right making this a reality for him regardless of what he does.
I am trying to prepare myself to possibly many avenues that I might not normally take. But this is not one of them.
I really am just feeling as desperate as I can possibly feel at this point.
I know he is so filled with anger and hatred for me that I am not in a position to do any GOOD for him anymore. I am thinking that if he went somewhere else it might diffuse the anger. Even if it was just a temporary solution. His anger seems to have reached a boiling point. And because he doesn’t have impulse control this seems to be a dangerous situation in my opinion.
I need help and I need it now. I have called human services, basically they have no agencies that they have available (for our situation) other than for runaways.
What agencys do you call to even talk to a social worker?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 1:14pm
OxDrover says:
I would call the child protective services (or department of human services) whatever it is called in your state. State that you have a CHILD AT RISK and that you need help and advice, and see ifyou can get your foot in the door through that. State that your child is a “risk to himself” (use those EXACT words words) and they are TRUE. Once you get face to face with the worker, you can eventually tell that you think he is also a RISK TO YOU.
I would also explore getting your older son to help you, by convincing him (along with other witnesses) to wha tyour son is up to and how he is ABUSING and threatening you. It ;may not work, but I would think it is worth a shot.
Wits, as far as “abandoning” him—HE HAS ABANDONED YOU, not you abandoning him. The only person I see YOU abandoning is YOURSELF.
If you and he were swimming in a lake and he was two years old, and wanted and needed to ride on your back to safety, I can see you doing that even if it was a matter of sinking and drowning yourself in an attempt to save him.
BUT, he is capable of swimming for himself (but unwilling to make any effort to do so) but he is DEMANDING TO RIDE ON YOUR BACK RATHER THAN TRY TO SWIM FOR HIMSELF, and if you let him do that, YOU WILL SINK, AND NOT BE ABLE TO SAVE HIM EITHER.
So, I think you need to look at this situation not as you abandoning him—abandonment issues my arse!—the thing is he has become a BULLY and you are the victim, so why are you having PITY FOR THE VERY PERSON WHO IS THREATENING AND BULLYING YOU AND TRYING TO SINK YOU BENEATH THE WAVES.
Wits, I’ve been there, my poor baby all alone in that nasty prison with all those mean convicts preying on him….sheeet! BOINK!!!! Wits! Get real girl! You know what I am saying is true. You can’t pity the pit bull that is biting your leg, shake it off! (((hugs))))) and you know you are in my prayers! Love Oxy
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 2:52pm
lostandfearful says:
@ Inquirente
“A perfect lie can be so much more damaging, because it is hidden within your being.”
wow. and i also take this to mean hidden from me. hidden there, were she caught me. there were rings for her to hook into.
my posts might be a bit garbled re numbers and gender. I was conned by a woman, pretending to be a young man and his family and friends. welcome to the internet. turns out she has been at it a LONG time. I have found reference to her on the internet and am now in the process of connecting with another of her ‘duppees’ (sorry, not going to do the ‘v’ word) who is taking her to civil court. First, I am doing a background check on the other dupee.
my sociopath is alive well active and sock puppetting all over the internet.
I am hoping that coming here, and interacting with the other dupee, etc. will peal me away from watching the trainwreck rumble on. I hate this woman. And I want to mess with her. And absolutley no one who knows me can understand what this is like.
I had an abusive bf 30 years ago – I remember what that was like, and I remember how long it took me to rise up and roar when he was stalking me. The police intervened in that situation; he had made the wrong threat at the wrong time and the arson squad got involved. they aksed me if i though he would/could do as threatened. I said yes, cause it was quite posible. I WOULD HAVE SAID IT ANYWAY, TO GET HELP TO MAKE HIM STOP, TO HAVE SOME POWER. I feel the same way now.
I would like to help this woman who is suing her, in anyway possible. And i relaized tongiht that i may be able to. The US postal service frowns on fraud. And I may be able to supply her with some mail, that may further her case. I hope so. I so want vengence. And I am trusting that this is actually a place I can say this and you will understand – and because you may know how i feel, then your response will have meaning. I feel like such a whack job when i try to tell people i know what is going on. their repsonses, are ususally, to tell me to run. This woman doens’t live anywhere near me…in another country. I am not so worried that she will come after me. She seems not quite that motivated.
She actually was lIving with the other woman i have come across who she defrauded. LIVING WITH HER! As the best friend of the man she loved who died……………..
It is hard still – dimanlting this beautiful kind noble smart and outrageously weird and funny boy who I loved. he never existed…onyl in this womans’ head. i want to know, who is that beautiufl boy is in the 50 photos i have? did she steal his life? and what will she do with the pics she has of me?
She was amazing with her voice – played 2 characters i spoke with. I believed her – and i have tlaked to ‘him’ on the phone since May. After ‘he’ died, his sister called me. (same schitck, diff vic) and she made a BIG mistake – maybe it was the 4th phone call and she signed off with, ‘i love you’. And i was like, uh noooo! I have rather been in hell since sept.
all for now. ty for being here.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 9:46pm
OxDrover says:
Dear lostandfearful,
Cyber-paths, con men/women, frauds, ….these people hook into the emotions of others, you are sure not alone. I saw a 20/20 program one night about this man in Nigeria who was pretending to be a beautiful woman, and had gotten involved on the internet with a middle aged man who had sent “her” thousands of dollars and was mailing stolen merchancise for “her” to help her with her “business” and expected this beautiful, wealthy woman to come to American and marry him. This man was not stupid, he was HOOKED ON A FANTASY.
There are thousands of people who are hooked by these con people, and unfortunately, they are GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO and they pull people in by their heart strings, either through romance or compassion for someone suffering as the good people try to “help’ this person.
The worst part of it is that by bieng in another country most of the time they get away with the scams–get away with the money and the “dupee” as you call it (not the V word) is powerless to recover their money or their faith.
These people are psychopathic, they are heartless, they are EVIL—and I hear your pain, I hear your frustration, I hear your rage, and I don’t think there is anyone here who has been scammed for money and/or for love by a psychopath that cannot relate to what you feel.
The dating sites and other places on the internet can be “fishing pools’ for dupees. The most caring and kind individuals are the ones who are duped by these scum bags. They play the “pity me” card, or the “I’ve been so abused and I need you to help me” card, and a thousand other stories.
You are NOT alone in this. I hope you will stay here and read, and I do wish you and the other woman can get some justice, but if you do or not, it isn’t any longer about THEM but about you. Healing you. Taking care of YOU! YOU did not deserve this, and you do deserve to heal and find peace. (((Hugs)))) and God bless.
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Monday, 23 November 2009 @ 11:58pm
Spirit40 says:
I think I am a magnet for these types of people in general….. last week I met two wierdos in one day right after I kicked the S to the curb…. one a realtor since I needed and apt and one a mechanic.. who was trying to put the moves on me , I was like what? the heck…..I just talked to the wierd ..lady I am weary of anyone who is intersested in what my childcare options are… and my personal business… “they act like they want to help you, but I am going with my first instincts this time , back off my personal info I just met you…. its really hard to be naive and a good person and not be able to trust cause of these A …holes…. Its something I need to be stronger about boundaries its ok to have them and to protect myself… when in doubt….especially the chaos and crap we go through…
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 1:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear spirit,
Good observations! Good reactions! Stepping up to some good boundaries!!! TOWANDA!!!
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Tuesday, 24 November 2009 @ 2:17pm
justabouthealed says:
I’ve thought a lot about the tendency we all have to blame ourselves, to think we have some weakness, some “issues” we have to get over. And depending on our personality type, we may ALWAYS be the analytical type, wondering why we are the way we are, struggling always to improve, etc., and so we apply that to this experience as well.
I’ve also thought a lot about the tendency some of us have to want revenge, to be angry and stay angry, and to say things like I’ve often said: “If he had not been a bad guy, then my traits wouldn’t have caused me a problem. So HE is the problem, not me.”
Well, finally, I have an analogy. I have been getting sick every time I travel. Three times since the spring. Each time I got sick. Not just a little sick, but miserably sick, expensively sick, and sick for weeks. I made my husband sick too when I came home, despite my best efforts to prevent that.
In each case, I’m pretty certain who “made” me sick. In one case, the woman admitted to me that she knew she should have stayed home from the conference, because she was sick, but she came anyway. She told me this matter of factly after I got sick. So she knew she was sick, and not only did she come to the conference, but she came up to me and insisted on shaking my hand and giving me her card. I was rather floored later when this stranger, who called me after the conference, so matter of factly said, oh yes, I’m sure I gave you it, but I really wanted to meet you, and it will all be worth it. HUH??
Well, after getting sick three times, I have someone I could BLAME for each time. I could stop there. But for my own sake, even though it was not my “fault” that I got sick, I’m going to the doctor to find out how to best boost my immune system before my next trip, and I’m going to pay very close attention to the kinds of safety steps I should practice in public and in meeting people, as well as what vitamins I should take, how much sleep I should get, etc. And watch myself for any bad habits from my childhood, like licking my finger to turn a page of a public magazine, etc.
And so what my analogy is stating is that here at LF we know who to BLAME…the shame belongs to the bad guy, NOT to us…..but that doesn’t mean we can’t do things to boost our immunity to these bad guys…..while realizing sometimes you are going to get sick. Anyone can be a victim. But if you get treatment right away (no contact) you will heal faster!
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Saturday, 5 December 2009 @ 11:51pm
OxDrover says:
Dear JAH
Your immune system does take a hit from prolonged stress, so yes, TAKE PRECAUTIONS.
Get your flu shots!
Take a multivitamin every day.
Get plenty of rest,
Carry the hand sanitizer.
Use the paper towel (if no towels use a klenex from your purse) to open the bathroom door, DO NOT TOUCH THE KNOB and then sanitize your hands otu side the john.
clean the handle of any shopping cart you use
keep your hands away from your face
at big gatherings, do not shake hands (carry some books or something and then say “excuse me for not shaking hands but my arms are full”
Avoid CLOSE contact with large crowds, keep as much distance as you reasonably can. Avoid close contact esp with people obviously sick.
Keep your stress levels as low as possible.
Your analogy though is a good one!!!!
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Sunday, 6 December 2009 @ 12:43am
geminigirl says:
Wits, i can so relate to what you are going thru right now with your P son. I was also very scared of my daughter when she was between the ages of 17 and 19. She trashed my art studio in 1981, and that was the year she threw a heavy hot steam iron at my head{She missed, luckily.}. She used to look at me with such hatred in her eyes. Not sure if she was on drugs that year, but she was certainly drinking a lot of booze.{Her dad is an alcoholic, and he used to get her to come to his favourite pub and drive him home,-this was when he was underage and no driving licence.She isa tall girl, and quite strong. My pastor at th e time told me she had a “walk- in”, an evil spirit which came and went.I dont doubt it, as her moods used to change at a frightning speed.Before her dad hit the bottle again he wasa great dad and husband,but after he started drinking again, he used to verbally abuse me in front of my girls, and they used to copy him. I had no-one in my corner, and thought I was losing my mind, as Id never heard of “gaslighting, mirroring, projection”, etc at the time. The one time I called the police, my ex convinced them that I was the crazy one, and was beating up my daughter, and was a prostitute as well! They believed him! You are right to be scared of your son, my daughter is now 45, and tho she now thinks shes a “yuppy”, and so smart and entitled, basically Ive never trusted her since she wrecked my home and studio.When is he legally of age to be set up on his own?If he wants to go, let him go. Change the locks, or sell up and move if you possibly can. Teenagers have killed their parents, what about the Menendez brothers?You are living on a knife edge, and your nerves and immune system must be shot.Lots of luck, you will need it! and {{HUGS!!}}}, gem.XX
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Sunday, 6 December 2009 @ 1:18am