The sociopath’s irrational optimism
We’ve discussed many of the sociopath’s traits, such as his missing empathy and compassion; his tendency to remorseless interpersonal exploitation; and proclivity to audacious acts of lying, deception and sundry other violating behaviors.
Now, I’m tempted to add to the mix what I call the sociopath’s tendency to “irrational optimism.”
By “irrational optimism,” I mean the sociopath’s irrationally optimistic belief, if not conviction, that he’ll either evade or, somehow, otherwise prevail over, the real, probable consequences of his actions.
Consider this brief, hypothetical interaction between a sociopath and his partner, who learns with certainty that he, the sociopath, has been cheating on her with three different women simultaneously:
Partner: How could you do that?
Sociopath: Do what?
Partner: Sleep with three different women behind my back. Are you f*cking demented?
Sociopath: First of all, that’s abusive. So stop right there and don’t abuse me. Second, I didn’t sleep with f*cking anybody. Not that I haven’t been tempted, given how lame our sex life is.
Partner: Why are you lying? I know who these women are, and I can prove you’ve been sleeping with them. Do you think I’m that f*cking stupid?
Sociopath: Let me ask you something. Why the hell would I sleep with three women and risk getting some f*cking STD? Think about it. You know me…or maybe you don’t? Does that make any sense?
The sociopath here is (or was) irrationally optimistic on two levels—first, that he’d be able to perpetrate this caper, undetected, indefinitely; and second that, once busted (as, now, he is) he’ll be able to squirm his way out of accountability.
We could address many aspects of this interaction, but I’d like to emphasize his last argument: “Let me ask you something. Why the hell would I sleep with three women and risk getting some f*cking STD? Think about it. You know me…or do you? Does that make any sense?”
This argument captures, I think, the sociopath’s “irrational optimism” beautifully. In offering the glibly insulting invitation to “think about it,” he makes a spectacle of his audacity and contempt: he really expects, and believes his partner should, accept his invitation [to think about it].
But even more than expecting her to “think about it,” which is outrageous enough, he expects her, in his irrational optimism, actually to be persuaded by his argument. In his irrational optimism, he is hopeful, if not confident, that she’ll choose to disbelieve the evidence she holds indisputably in her hands in favor of accepting his insulting logic.
How classically sociopathic is this?
More importantly, what contributes to the sociopath’s irrational optimism?
We might begin with his malignant sense of entitlement—that is, the sociopath’s belief that he is entitled to obtain the gratifications he wants. One of the most dangerous aspects of the attitude of entitlement is how it renders impotent—denudes of power—rule, limits and laws.
When you feel entitled to something, if it’s not accomodatingly forthcoming, you feel entitled to take it. You’ve laid, in your entitlement, a kind of psychic possession of what it is you want, so that now it becomes, in your mind, yours—specifically, your right to have.
And so if someone (or something) obstructs your seizing what now, in your mind, is your right to possess, then you are free to take it—to take, in fact, whatever is yours—by any means necessary.
Conferring this entitled status upon oneself encourages the irrationally optimistic view that, one way or another, accomodation looms…it must!
Closely related to this is the sociopath’s grandiosity: he believes he can and should succeed at his high-wire machinations because he’s that good, that clever and—it can’t be stressed enough—that entitled.
His grandiosity may take the form of thoughts like, “Sure, normal guys couldn’t pull this shit off, but I’m not your normal guy.”
And so, when you feel like you can do things that others can’t—especially things unsupported by “reality”—this is grandiosity. And grandiosity feeds, I believe, very directly, the sociopath’s tendency to irrational optimism.
Then there is the sociopath’s contempt, so inseparable from his grandiosity. As we discussed, the sociopath, in the example above, expects his insulting argument to succeed, either because he’s convinced he’s smart, clever and persuasive enough to be found so convincing, or else he’s convinced that his partner is dumb, naïve and/or desperate enough to believe him. (Or both!)
As a consequence, the sociopath’s contempt leaves him at constant risk of underestimating others, and overestimating himself. In his irrational optimism, fed by his contempt, he fails to appreciate how close he is always is—perhaps just one more reckless risk away—from being busted.
What else feeds the sociopath’s irrational optimism? How about his stupidity?
This may sound provocative, but let me explain. I suggest that blind faith supports a perspective of irrational optimism, and the sociopath operates with a kind of blind faith. That is, he operates in the blind faith that, somehow or other, he’ll escape accountability for his latest transgression.
Where does his blind faith come from? Two good sources, I’d suggest, are his grandiosity and arrogance—they blind him, I contend, to certain realities, effectively making him stupid on some level.
And his stupidity reinforces his irrational optimism.
Quite obviously, I’m not talking I.Q. stupidity, but rather judgement-level stupidity. The sociopath’s personality pathology mars his capacity to make wise, intelligent judgements in many circumstances.
(My use of “he” in this article is a convenience, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW).
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
OxDrover says:
Again, Steve, a great article!
I might add, too, that the psychopath does not attribute any LOSSES to himself, but to external or UNFORTUNATE happens, so therefore does NOT learn from failure. He will continue the same tactics over and over and expect different results.
My P-son, sitting in prison for “life” for murder feels that he is a SUCCESS in life. None of the “failures” he has had which put him into prison were his “fault” but were all attributed to others “ratting him out”–chief among whom is me for turning him into the cops for theft at age 17, so somehow, in his mind, his conviction at age 20 for murder is my fault.
He truly believes that his “life education” by being in prison for 20+ years has equipped him to be very successful when (if) he ever gets out. Of course he is very sure he will get out and have the “life of Riley” on the outside due to his superiority! And, after all, he IS ENTITLED!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:10am
Matt says:
Steve:
So true. At one point in his “career” S worked for a manged health-care company. Over the last 15 years he got hooked on drugs, tanked his credit report and ended up in prison. His employer actually held his job for him while he was in prison because S hadn’t stolen from him.
After getting out of prison did S have gratitude for his boss holding the job? No. As far as he was concerned his boss was taking advantage of him and he was entitled to more. Every other day I would hear “I’ve had it. I’m going back to health care.”
Any sane person would look at his circumstances– past and present — and realize this will not happen in lifetime. But, in his irrationally optimistic mind, all it will take is a phone call or two and he’ll be back sitting in the corner office with 2 secrearies (ignoring the fact that he was handling scheduling and working in a cubicle and fetching coffee for somebody in the corner office the last time around!).
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:24am
justabouthealed says:
Dead on. The S/P/N I was involved with told me that he was hopelessly optimistic. When he said that about himself, it made no sense to me, because I had equated optimism with an upbeat, loving, easy-going personality…which this dictator certainly was not! But as always, it was all about him, and he meant he was hopelessly optimistic about HIMSELF and this article really could have been written specifically about him, it is very accurate.
And he was stupid, to the point of being retarded, in the ways you are alluding to, though he was a brilliant doctor.
As always you make vague insights crystal clear.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:27am
style1 says:
Exactly, Mine was the same.. four marriages, he blamed the women not himself… claimed all his craziness in his life was karma.. now, that’s a catch all.. no money, not his fault… eviction… not his fault.. the owner of the property made the mistake LOL…
and some wonderful big business deal from the sky was going to pull him out of this.. all he needed was a supportive woman.. LOL!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 11:37am
newlife08 says:
Steve.
Each week I wait for your article with such anticipation and you never fail to disappoint.
I am copying this right out of an e-mail I got this week :
“Let’s be honest, as you claim to be… You knew what happening in our marriage while it was happening!!!
You told people!!! You say I told people things??? You knew what was going on, now you are mad at your self for letting it. And to not look like some one who chose to ignore, you claim to be innocent, manipulated, controlled, and surprised… ”
In this one excerpt of his tirade, I can now clearly see so many of the traits you mention above and in prior articles – audacity, blame shifting , contempt , etc…….
It’s my fault I believed he ended his affair
It’s my fault – I must have known he was cruising sex -sites
I should have known there was more than one other woman…
…..anything to avoid recognizing how truly ACCOUNTABLE HE SHOULD BE FOR RIPPING MY HEART OUT OVER AND OVER…….I ALLOWED IT !!!!!
And I did – because I loved too much and wanted to believe there was something salvageable in him…………….
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 11:52am
Rosa says:
Irrationally Optimistic…..
I prefer to call it “Joyfully EVIL”.
Nevertheless, that “optimism” that they possess can be very attractive when you first meet them.
Some of them are very effective at appearing to be positive and upbeat at first.
They can put a positive spin on anything. (Do the words charming, glib, & superficial ring any bells?)
And, we all want to surround ourselves with positive people, right???
The thing is, GENUINELY positive people don’t engage in systematic attempts to make you feel like donkey poo.
And, when you call them on their antics, they will fall back into the pity ploy, crocodile tears, or righteous indignation (these will be your RED FLAGS).
If you get one that is REALLY ARROGANT, he will tell you how you SHOULD FEEL, instead.
~In fact, some may even acknowledge that you are right when you confront them, and they will fold just like a cheap suit.
BUT, their BEHAVIOR never changes, so it is all for nothing.~
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:20pm
anitasee says:
So true. And when an S is really good at his game, also appealing on some levels, at least in my experience.
My ex P would over the years make repeated statements of “opinion” as fact – when I for instance considered the “what ifs” in his latest financial scheme for instance- he would just flatly state-”that is not going to happen” ( in this case the housing bubble) other times the stock market “is not going to fall” etc etc.
People in business were attracted to his “certainty” and saw this as strength, having a positive attitude, keeping his cool etc.
It took me so very long to see that his certainty in his actions were just a smoke screen for the looting of our financial viability for his own purposes.
He is now fighting me in court with that same absolute certainty that he will prevail. Altho I think as he ages he is way off his game, and I did actually see his hands shaking while addressing (lying to) the judge.
Perhaps when they get away with their shit for so long they feel entitled to always get away with more, as Dr. Steve suggests. They believe the universe turns for them- because they are special and deserve it. Loathsome creatures that they are.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:21pm
skylar says:
Their optimism might also have to do with the shotgun effect.
You know when you fire a shot gun, you’re bound to eventually hit something. The same with the P, they know that they will eventually find someone to believe their lies, so it’s just a roll of the dice. They really don’t care if you don’t believe them, they are just practicing. They never had any commitment or investment. If anything, this game is even more fun for them when you turn the odds against them because it gives them a greater challenge and success is even more rewarding.
For example, my P and I were in a restaurant and he commented on the color of the menu. If I recall correctly, he said it was yellow when it was clearly red. I was befuddled, why would he say that? I argued that it was yellow and he suggested we ask the waitress. She agreed with me but he kept insisting until I finally said, “well, maybe in some lights it could be construed as orangish” He looked so smug.
Even when you don’t believe them, they don’t care as long as they never backed down in the face of all reality, they still won. That’s why they’re called the people of the lie.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:53pm
skylar says:
correction: I argued that it was red
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:10pm
Twice Betrayed says:
I’ve had a conversation very similar to this with my x. His comment was: I’ve never caught anything. Which let me know he had cheated from the very beginning of our long marriage. He had simply never been faithful-including the affair with my older daughter. How smug he was……leering at me. At that time he used his isolation of me and finances to force me to take this abuse. IMO they do not care if they are busted….the thrill of living right on the edge fuels their warped sense of ‘adventure’. The con….oh how they love the con. They are not only sadists but enjoy receiving the torture too of another P that is ’stronger’ then they are. If they get busted….they go into ‘pitiful me’ act….and get the oscar anyway. They are hopeful because they are always ‘buyers’ out there of their con….they just have to find them. They cross lines we don’t cross so no problems regarding what they can do…or will do. Whatever situation comes along…they can twist it to fit their warped senses and suck somebody dry. Mine has had to go out of the country to find another victim…he’s losing his acting ability now that he is aging…not to mention his once ‘hunk’ status. I thought you all might get a kick outta this…mine had to go out of the country to find a good victim now that he is losing his looks and acting ability=aging. Seems he pulled a major balk at the church at the wedding….and her young sons gave him some well earned incentive….in the form of force> resulting in my x’s nephew commenting it was a shotgun wedding. My daughter said my x said….”I’m screwed..” ahahahahahahahaha!!!!! AHHHHHH-karma…..sweet karma. *high five and knuckles…..
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:19pm
Twice Betrayed says:
*sorry some typos and repeating of a sentence. Was working and trying to do two windows at same time.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:24pm
skylar says:
TB! ROTFLMAO!
Reality BITES!
Karma comes back around – OMG, that is tooooo awesome.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:02pm
shabbychic says:
Steve, yes, “escape accountability”… I think they live by that rule. Very interesting article! I am so appreciative to you and all who write these articles, a priceless education for me. Thank you!!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:32pm
shabbychic says:
TB… “well earned incentive….in the form of force” aaaahhh, that is wonderful! Ha, he’s really in for it now. I love the losing the charm/looks stuff, and the sons… they are gonna be hell on earth for him! Yeaaaaaaaah!!!!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:35pm
Twice Betrayed says:
sky: I knew you’d really appreciate this….you and I share the same kind of humor….;) bwwwaaaaahahahaha. I almost passed out when I heard all of this….I laughed so hard I cried. I had to go potty afterwards..my sides were splitting. I got a great visual on it. The whole thing sounded like it was right out of Moonstruck. total chaos. ahahahahahahaaaaaa…………*still chuckling.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:37pm
Twice Betrayed says:
……oh and his mom had to give him a ‘pain pill’ to keep him from stroking out. *big grin
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:39pm
Twice Betrayed says:
shabbychic: you are so funny! You are right….they are gonna work ole’ P over…..I think he thought he would ‘charm’ these like he did my kids….and most everyone’s he met….only these two ‘boys’ are from a side of the world that kicks ass and asks questions later or not at all….one is a MMA cage fighter. Now, how funny and fitting is this? the edge might have sucked him closer than he wanted…..ahahahahahaaaaa! *screams with laughter!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:46pm
OxDrover says:
TB–ROTFLMAO Well, let’s just hope he pops his new Mrs. in the mouth say, or slaps her, and then when her sonny boy hears about it—-kaPOWWWWWWWW!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 4:20pm
shabbychic says:
TB, yeah, they are gonna work him over, and skylar pointed out previously that men from South America really protect their mothers, it’s a matter of honor in addition to love for them, they will keep an eye on him, in his case it’s 4 eyes, I can’t believe he balked at the church, what a jerk, he probably feels like he’s in prison… ha ha hahahahahaha… and mommy had to give him a pain pill… hahahaha, I’m so glad someone told you about all this!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 4:20pm
Twice Betrayed says:
oxy/chic: boy, that would be perfect. Maybe drag his fat ass into that cage and ……..bingo. ;P Well, I hope he does, Chic….cause I was in his prison long enough……awwwwww……he will cry to his mommy and sister…..*boo hoo
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 5:00pm
Twice Betrayed says:
The two sons flew in for the wedding….one from South America and one from Miami. * no pressure.
From what I’ve heard….it was a scene from hell. 
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 5:08pm
pollyannanomore says:
Very true Steve – they evade responsibility for everything in stunning ways. I don’t know that I can even articulate the myriad ways he evades responsibility for the dumb things he has done or the pain he has inflicted.
If you try to bring anything up then you are the one being nasty and ‘not letting go’ or ‘getting past things’. I lose track of the times he has questioned my mental health (oh what a joke now I realise how abnormal he is).
Everything is someone else’s fault – he didn’t get a job he wanted .. someone put in a bad word against him – not that he didn’t have the qualifications or experience needed for the role. If a project fails – it is never his planning or organising but always the fault of the participants. If he has no money before the next pay day – that is never a fault of not budgeting and planning spending but rather because ‘everything is so expensive nowadays – now give me some of your money dear … and don’t call it a loan because you know I can’t pay you back.’ Any problems with anything at home or in the history of the relationship are all my fault – my anger rather than his stupid behaviour that provoked the eventual anger.
I know I have to get past all this and move on with life but I am still so damned angry about it. There is no consequence to him because he feels nothing. But it rips my heart out again and again. I see the current problems as struggling with the unfairness of the past and also coping with trust issues into the future – I am very wary of people these days.
Many thanks for writing this,
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 5:12pm
justabouthealed says:
Cringing here…of course *I* evidenced blind faith and totally unjustified optimism in thinking the p/s/n would ever change, that I had just misunderstood, that it was circumstances, blah, blah, blah. And I suppose there was an arrogance in thinking *I* could show him real love when no one else in the world had? !!
But at least my optimism, my blind faith was not rooted in grandiosity, contempt, and entitlement!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 5:33pm
skylar says:
Pollyannanomore,
you said he questioned your mental health. LOL.
Mine wrote me emails and kept referring to my “beautiful mind” that I was destroying with drugs and alcohol. That beautiful mind is in reference to the movie/true-story of the schizophrenic genious, John Nash.
Steve,
I think that your article’s points: entitlement, grandiosity, contempt and stupidity are the driving force for the stories that they come up with. Then they just believe the story as if it had come from the realm of reality rather than of their disordered minds.
It’s funny, how convinced he was that I was going to kill myself or go crazy simply because he wanted me to. LOL. It’s bizarre, but I think they believe the stories that they make up. I think that a certain part of their brains confuse reality with their fantasy. It’s like they are still 5 years old and can drift in and out of reality at will. On the other hand, he did drive his ex-girlfriend to suicide so I guess it would be possible, but after 25 years with me, I thought he knew me better.
I’ll look for the email he sent me back in June, when I first left him and I’ll post it for kicks.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 6:20pm
skylar says:
Hello my love
Where have we gone after 27 years. We entered into troubled times and the future is uncertain.
I know our relationship has been damaged and both of us have issues with each other. Right now I don’t want to talk about what I did wrong or what you did wrong. Instead I would like to talk about your personal challenge. I watched you make every effort possible to address your sleeping disorder, unfortunately your method has turned on you and your life is in great danger. You have developed a severe dependency on alcohol and sleeping medication and I believe you are now having psychological problems because of this. I don’t know what to do I have never felt so helpless in my life.
You probably don’t believe me , addictions create paranoia and mistrust. When I saw you last over at Harry’s I couldn’t believe I was talking to you. You seemed like a total stranger and your mannerisms were like those of a drug addict. I am not putting you down I have loved your beautiful mind for 27 years and I feel so helpless , healthy minds are needed to solve problems like ours. There are so many ways for you to be injured either directly or indirectly. When I saw you last you were driving your car while on alcohol or drugs are both I never believed you would do this. Please don’t drive your car during these times, if you have an accident we will never be able to fix our lives. Please write me a letter each day I will check my e-mail and respond to you may be we can make progress this way. Remember to hold your life guarded in all that you do don’t let your broken heart and tethered mind cause irreversible mistakes.
love you The P.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 6:24pm
Twice Betrayed says:
sly: yeah, I would have known that was written by a P. Trying to hard to psych you out with his ‘caring heart’. Ugh…..they always have someone else diving over the edge and they rush in to save us….[after all their pushes and gaslighting to try and get us there]. Look at the drama….”Hello, my love……*oh please…going for the oscar….
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 6:34pm
Twice Betrayed says:
sorry…meant sky…on my friend’s cheap laptop and can’t type worth a dang on it…….sheesh. Trying to get a Mac this PM…my desktop bit the dust.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 6:36pm
OxDrover says:
TRANSLATION OF SKYLAR’s LETTER FROM THE P: FROM P-SPEAK INTO ENGLISH (translation is in ALL CAPS)
Hello my love (“MY LOVE, YEA, LIKE I ALWAYS TREATED YOU)
Where have we gone after 27 years. We entered into troubled times and the future is uncertain. (YOU SEEM TO HAVE FIGURED OUT WHAT I AM AND I AM LOOKING FOR A WAY TO REEL YOU BACK IN)
I know our relationship has been damaged (BOY AIN’T THAT THE TRUTH?)
and both of us have issues with each other. (YEA, YOU HAVE AN ISSUE ON HOW I ACT, AND I HAVE AN ISSUE THAT YOU ARE ON TO ME.)
Right now I don’t want to talk about what I did wrong or what you did wrong.(YOU BET YOUR ASS I DON’T WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT I DID WRONG, BUT I WILL FIGURE OUT SOMETHING TO ACCUSE YOU OF DOING WRONG)
Instead I would like to talk about your personal challenge. (LET’S NOT TALK ABOUT ME, LET’S TALK ABOUT YOUR SHORT COMINGS, AFTER ALL THAT IS OUR PROBLEM)
I watched you make every effort possible to address your sleeping disorder, unfortunately your method has turned on you and your life is in great danger. (SEE I AM GOING TO POINT OUT TO YOU THAT WITHOUT ME, YOU CAN’T EVEN SURVIVE)
You have developed a severe dependency on alcohol and sleeping medication and I believe you are now having psychological problems because of this. (SEE HOW I CAN TWIST WORDS?)
I don’t know what to do I have never felt so helpless in my life. (YEA THE THOUGHT CROSSED MY MIND THAT YOU MIGHT ACTUALLY NOT LET ME REEL YOU BACK IN)
You probably don’t believe me ,(AFTER ALL THE LIES I HAVE TOLD, I STILL EXPECT YOU TO BELIEVE ME)
addictions create paranoia and mistrust. (YEA, IT ISN’T MY LIES THAT MAKE YOU DISTRUST ME, IT IS THAT YOU ARE A DRUNK AND THE PROBLEMS ARE YOURS)
When I saw you last over at Harry’s I couldn’t believe I was talking to you. You seemed like a total stranger and your mannerisms were like those of a drug addict. (SEE, THE PROBLEMS ARE YOURS, NOT MINE)
I am not putting you down (I JUST CALLED YOU A DRUG ADDICT BUT THAT’S NOT A PUT DOWN)
I have loved your beautiful mind for 27 years (i’LL LTHROW IN A COMPLIMENT HERE JUST TO PUT YOU OFF TRACK)
and I feel so helpless ,(YEA, YOU MIGHT GET AWAY)
healthy minds are needed to solve problems like ours. (YOU ARE NOT HEALTHY, ONLY I AM HEALTHY AND SMART)
There are so many ways for you to be injured either directly or indirectly. (A LITTLE THREAT HERE, JUST SO YOU KNOW I AM IN CHARGE AND MIGHT HURT YOU)
When I saw you last you were driving your car while on alcohol or drugs are both I never believed you would do this. (AGAIN, YOU ARE SO MESSED UP, AND I JUST HAVE A PROBLEM BELIEVING YOU DON’T BELIEVE EVERY WORD I SAY, YOU ALWAYS DID BEFORE)
Please don’t drive your car during these times, if you have an accident we will never be able to fix our lives. (AH COME ON, LET ME TAKE CONTROL AGAIN)
Please write me a letter each day I will check my e-mail and respond to you may be we can make progress this way. (THIS WAY I CAN KEEP MY FOOT IN THE DOOR AND GET YOU BACK UNDER MY CONTROL)
Remember to hold your life guarded in all that you do don’t let your broken heart and tethered mind cause irreversible mistakes.(YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE MIND PROBLEMS, NOT ME)
love you The P. (BOY I HOPE YOU FALL FOR THIS LOAD OF CLAP TRAP!)
Skylar, I hope this translation clarifies what he was really saying. LOL ROTFLMAO
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 6:47pm
ErinBrock says:
SKYLAR:
I think the healthiest thing for you to do is go NO CONTACT.
I think you should be concentrating on getting back into your house and moving on……really, I think your playing with fire….with each communication……
If you put the energy into YOU, you will reap the benefits and not waste anymore time stagnant trying to figure him out. Stop living in fear of him, and his possible actions against you and take control of YOU!
I think your a sitting duck at your parents place, you need to surround yourself with healthy thinking adults that support you. If you can’t find anyone just yet….remain alone…..but keep moving in a forward direction….for YOU!
This email is sick……and I don’t see it leading your down any sort of positive road for your future continuing any of it.
XXOO
EB
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:01pm
skylar says:
OXY! you nailed it!
Thanks for the belly laugh!
TB,
From the first line, “Hello my love”, it’s got P-drama written all over it.
He NEVER called me “my love”
I swear it’s like half his brain suddenly fell out because his lies used to be convincing. but this is drivel.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:04pm
skylar says:
EB, it’s an old email from June. He doesn’t do that anymore.
But yes it was sick and thank you for your concern.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:05pm
pollyannanomore says:
Wow thanks for that Skylar – it really clarified it for me. I actually was questioning myself a few years back … he had me so low over his repeated betrayals and lies and hurts and let downs … yet he was then making out it was MY mental health issues that were the problem.
It came to a head one day when my best friend just had a baby and I couldn’t drag myself out of bed to go visit with her. I had supported her the whole way through the pregnancy including talking her out of abortion when her partner was behaving like a pig, giving her money when she needed some and going shopping for baby items with her even though I would need to cry for hours afterwards. I was the friend to her I wished I had when I needed one. But I couldn’t face the happy family at the hospital.
He tried to drag me out of bed and I said “I am not getting up = there is no point.” He then threatened to have me committed to a mental ward. At that moment something snapped inside of me and I really became like a mad woman lol I towered above him standing on the bed and read him the riot act. I then slapped his face three times and told him to get out. He left and naturally the pain I felt I categorised as love rather than extreme grief and confusion. So we reconciled again and the nightmare continued. He didn’t refer so much to my mental wellbeing after that.
The horrible thing about it is ,,, we can laugh about it here and help one another to deconstruct each segment of warped communication, but when you are isolated from everyone and alone and totally dependent on these monsters – you believe what they say. I was starting to believe his version of me – someone who was incompetent, incapable, depressed and unable to function alone in the world despite mountains of evidence to the contrary.
Many thanks Oxy for deconstructing that email and thankyou Skylar for sharing it. I only have courting emails from mine which I kept in a folder and wrote snarky comments all over when I realised he had no concern whatsoever for my wellbeing. I highlighted all his lies and broken promises and wrote really snippy comments on the side margins
It got rid of some pent up aggression. I might dig them out and share some excerpts so you can see the amazing promises he made in the idolising stage before he broke my heart and ruined my world. That is a great idea to study their words. I don’t have anything from during the relationship as he was very careful not to commit anything to paper =- he kept numerous notes I wrote him though trying to explain the pain I was in and asking how he could keep hurting me as he did.
I am off to search them out now! Thanks ladies – off to the mortgage person today to see about taking over the massive debts on the house to get him out
Those appts always make me cry and so so sad so please send me some good thoughts to be strong this afternoon – I am finding this so hard. I was up till 2am this morning crying and my eyes are all swollen up.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:45pm
ErinBrock says:
Sorry sky….I should have read the earlier post…..Duhhhh!
I still hold fast on the NC rule though….
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:57pm
skylar says:
It’s all cool, EB
(hug)
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 8:05pm
PInow says:
Guys, need your help and it may be fun. I am putting together a presentation on People of the Lie (like that one a lot). And – I thought it would be really neat to remember various fairytales that have been told and retold. I know that I am on to something. how is it that my kids are aware of the fact that there are Bad Optimistic people out there, and I was totally in the dark? Maybe, I did not read enough kids’ stories. Can you think of few where the Good turns to bad in a psychopathic sort of way? I think it’d make a great point for a lecture. What are your thoughts?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:45am
ErinBrock says:
Excellent idea!
Little red riding hood.
I’m also not much of a reader….but when Skylar logs on…..i’m sure she will fill you up! I recall she has mentioned some in the past…
Oh PI…..kids know so much more than they let on ………
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:01am
teacher123 says:
Yes I think you have the mind of the sociopath down except that they also can change who they are to different people like a chameleon. Rosa your comments are also accurate as people with feelings don’t power up on you and make you feel like you are a piece of shit. Here is a story that I just watched on 48 hours, maybe a repeat now about Mechele Hughes who played several men at the same time. Anyway, while as a stripper she became engaged to 3 men stringing them along while they were buying her fur coats, cars, rings etc. (The interviewer wondered what attraction she had on them). She was a stripper!!!!!! She had one of them take out a $1,000,000 dollar life insurance policy on himself with her as the beneficiary. He ended up dead with one of the other pawns doing the dirty work. At least the man had his policy changed days before he was killed- the paperwork was found on his dead body. She left the state and became married to a doctor while also earning her Master’s degree. 10 years later she was surprised to find out that she was a suspect in the murder trial now reopened. She was so glib about the whole thing I wanted to jump through the tv and smack her, especially when she also defamed the murdered man by saying that he was gay. This didn’t seem to bother her then when she was stringing him along with the idea of marriage. She was convicted thankfully, and I am hoping that the bearded lady gets the bunk either above or beneath her in prison.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....4454.shtml
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:38am
ErinBrock says:
Teacher:
Definately chameleon like!
First problem……stripper!
Now, I guess who am I to judge someone making a living as a stripper…..I dig holes in my yard….
BUT……to look at a stripper as marriage material, or girlfriend material…..HELLLLLOOOOOOO!
Why are we shocked with the enevitable…..
ANd so what if the dead guy was gay? Muddy waters, smoke screen…..what, you had a right to have him killed because he was gay? Uh….okayyyyy.
It’s a crazy, crazy world……and being in it…..I am so very glad I have the knowledge I do……it reduces my chances….still not immune though!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:52am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Great Article Steve!
I gotta laugh, ’cause the Sociopath I used to work with thought he could draw me into his wacky alternate universe again. (After all, I’m such a Patsy.)
The head of the homeschool cooperative we both teach at asked me to cover his classes. The lady is an angel. She can’t fathom what he is, because the concept is so foreign to her. I declined, of course.
I’ll never have anything to do with the Sociopath or any of his cohorts again. Sending the sweetest woman we know to ask me to cover for him was pretty clever, but not that clever.
If I start teaching martial arts classes in any way that seems even loosely affiliated with him again, then I’m the dumbest broad in the known universe. I’m pretty dumb, but I’m not quite that dumb.
The Sociopath’s abusive, conning, lying ways are catching up with him, and now he doesn’t have anyone capable of teaching his classes to cover for him or fawn over him. All he’s got are “newbies” who haven’t caught on yet. They will, and then they’ll leave too.
The S will never learn and he’ll never change. He’ll always be confident that his games will allow him to con, lie and abuse indefinately.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:58am
hopingtoheal says:
Steve, thanks again for nailing the S’ behavior on the head! This type of conversation is EXACTLY the type we used to have. Mine is still contacting me daily (multiple times a day) since I broke off contact 3 months ago. This week he threatened to contact my work if I didn’t respond and ‘let him know if I truly was never going to speak to him again’. Stupidly, I fell for it, and shot him a very brief email telling him that I wasn’t going to talk to him and to leave me alone. He had promised he would stop the barrage if I would just tell him there was no hope. Instead, he’s redoubled his efforts, and left me a gloating voice mail just now, telling me he understands that I just need more time to heal and then I’ll be ready to let him back into my heart. He told me he laughed when he thought of how stubborn each of us are being–me for not responding, and him for continuing to call. I am beginning to think he’s never going to stop! He’s tried every trick in the book–from the angry, horrible abusive language, to the I’m so sorry but you know that you hurt me too, to the I’m having surgery (now twice in the last 3 months–don’t believe it for a second), to his pet being sick, his kids being sick….whatever he can think of to get me to respond. It would be funny if it weren’t so sick. I wish I could block him from calling my work phone but I can’t. How have the rest of you dealt with this type of behavior?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:36am
Rosa says:
TwiceBetrayed:
“The whole thing sounded like it was right out of ‘Moonstruck’”.
Personally, I would LOVE to slap a few people alongside the head and say, “Snap out of it!!” just like Cher did in the movie.
Yeah, that would be great for me right about now.
Maybe even better than tennis.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:08am
Rosa says:
Teacher123:
I definitely agree with you on the chameleon aspect of the P.
Karma Karma Karma Karma Karma Chameleon
You come and go, you come and go….
Yeah, that Culture Club song from the 80’s could be their theme song.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:26am
skylar says:
gmorning.
PInow, Erin is right, I do love mythology but off the top of my head I couldn’t think of one that showed Good turning to Evil in a blatantly psychopathic way because that isn’t really how it happens.
I was reading a sociopath’s blog and there was discussion on the definition of evil – lots of stupid answers but one person nailed it: Evil is a matter of aesthetics. Evil is something that doesnt fit or look right, it offends or is inappropriate. I believe narcissism is the root of all evil in humans, but narcissism is simply a state of being childish when you are no longer a child. It doesn’t fit anymore and look how it corrupts the human mind and body and everyone they touch. Narcissism (being childish) seems so innocent and harmless but over time it creates a horrible stinking decay.
So on that vein I found the perfect fairy tale about a person who could not let go of the past and it ultimately destroyed his life as he had known it.
http://www.blackstoneyogacenter.com/Abu%20Kasem’s%20Slippers.pdf
This is an old fairy tale but the blogger added several pages of insight at the end, which includes some of the things I mention but also so much more.
I think everyone here can gain so much insight from this link.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:51am
skylar says:
well the link isn’t connecting so you will have to copy the link and paste it in your browser to read it.
http://www.blackstoneyogacente.....ippers.pdf
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:56am
Elizabeth Conley says:
HopingtoHeal,
“I wish I could block him from calling my work phone but I can’t. How have the rest of you dealt with this type of behavior? ”
Whenever a charity asks you for a donation, suggest the S’s name and number. Whenever a telemarketer calls, let them know the S would love their product. Give them his number. Sign him up for everything and anything that will net him a call or 6! The internet can make this easier. You can easily set the S up for 6-10 calls every. single. day. % )
If the S figures it out, so much the better. If he’s smart, he’ll realize that he can only keep his # from you if he stops calling you.
S’s can be slow to figure out their prey has toughened up. It may take him a while to figure out you’re the one who’s doing him in, because it’s not wise to confess. Once he figures it out, he’ll tantrum. If you’re lucky he’ll call you on his new phone line to tantrum. Then you can start using that number against him.
It’s time consuming, but relatively foolproof.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
hopingtoheal says:
Elizabeth, that is an awesome idea! I love it! Thanks.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:36pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Steve, as usual, you crack me up. I don’t know how many times I listened to this kind of conversation, and even at the time I had trouble not laughing at him. Even while my heart was broken. And I was hair-standing-on-end furious.
Elizabeth, I love your idea. I had a friend back in the ’70s who used to send subscriptions of “Anything That Moves,” a magazine for bi-sexuals, to ex-boyfriends who cheated on her.
Actually dirty tricks aren’t exactly in line with NC. But they’re so satisfying to think about.
Back to Steve’s dramatization. The one part you missed, which was always in my conversations, was this one: “You know you’re really responsible for your own happiness. Why are you putting all this on me? Maybe you should look at your own life.”
Pass me the Prozac, please.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:20pm
kim frederick says:
I always liked this one: A woman who had been living with her P boyfriend for two+ years is suddenly told by him that he has a two week business trip coming up, and since he feels that their relationship isn’t working out, he expects her to be gone by the time he gets home. As soon as he’s gone she begins to pack up, but first she dials TIME in Japan, and just happens to leave the phone off the hook…………at the tone the time will be….beep, etc.etc. etc. for two looooong weeks.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 3:11pm
OxDrover says:
Yea, “dirty tricks” are fun to think kabout sometimes, I think on eof Dr. Leedom’s articles (or something I read) talked about thoughts of revenge actually lighting up our “pleasure” center in our brain.
I admit that I thought about a LOT of vengence and “dirty” tricks, (and worse!) and it was pleasurable at the moment thinking about them, but I finally decided it wasn’t worth it in terms of MYSELF and the way I feel about ME. I don’t want to be that KIND of person, though sometimes the temptation to be is almost overwhelming, but kathy, you are right, it does’t go along with NC…which is the BEST way to get rid of them, as even if you are thinking about dirty tricks, you are still giving them RENTAL SPACE IN YOUR HEAD.
Does anyone remember the movie “The War of the Roses?” about the MOST spiteful couple in the world getting a divorce. In the end they killed themselves with their tricks.
Up to the end I actually ROTFLMAO at how “funny” that movie was, but in teh end, when they both died as a result of their mallice and vengence, an overwhelming sense of SADNESS overcame me at how people will cut their own noses off to spite their faces, in trying to get “revenge” against someone else. Was sort of an “ah ha” moment for me.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:07pm
kim frederick says:
Oxy, I agree with you. It’s not worth the damage we do to our spirit. But, it’s small consolation to laugh at the thought. In reality, I couldn’t even call the law on my XP. Don’t know why.
I’m having problems now thinking about my parents. I was in therapy about 20 years ago, for co-dependancy, in the mean time my parents have died. They weren’t awfull, they did the best they could. I believe that. I spent the last years of their lives being mad at them. They didn’t do this right, or that right. I can assure you that the mental health feild is more than willing to assist anyone on this journey!
I know I have issues from my child-hood. But at some point it became MY responsiblity to be happy, and figure out how to do that. I don’t want to look at my childhood anymore. I want to deal with my problems in the here and now. I WANT TO BE RESPONSIBLE.
This doesn’t have anything to do with anybody else’s recovery, just mine. Is it possible?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:36pm
kim frederick says:
Well, I could have pretty much predicted the fact that my last post would be ignored.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:10pm
skylar says:
KIM!!!
IT WASN’T IGNORED! I’m trying to network my computers and got lost for a bit. But I do check regularly.
It seems like you and I are very similar in temperment if not life experiences. We both got lost early on and went to live in fantasy land with a P and now we’re trying to grow up.
I always felt like my parents did the best they could too and I had forgiven them, UNTIL I FOUND OUT, that they KNEW the P was a conman and didn’t tell me. ARGHHH!
Since your parents passed I don’t want to speak badly of them, but realize that something happened in your childhood that left you vulnerable to P’s.
I guess we should be grateful that we aren’t P’s ourselves, (just mini-P’s sometimes! LOL!)
I wish we could offer support in person. I know I need a real hug everyday and very rarely get one, but cyber hugs will have to do. ((((((((((HUGE HUGS)))))))))))
and kisses for pinky doodle.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:29pm
Matt says:
kim frederick:
My father is an S and my mother is a malignant S bordering on S. I was on the treadmill today trying to get over my fury at a stunt my mother pulled today. I thought back to how much therapy I have been through trying to “resolve” my issues with my parents. I finally came to the conclusion that Freud may trace all our issues to our first bowel movements, but who the hell has the time to waste dredging through all that old nonsense?
I’ve come to your place — I’m the only one who can make myself happy. I am responsible for my happiness. I have gotten to the place that when the day comes where I put my parents into the ground I will not have a single regret.
Do I think we all have to come to the realization and understanding of how we have been repeating certain early in-grained patterns in our lives? Absolutely. But, that said, we’ve all got to declare that the statute of limitations has run on parental war crimes. We all have to get on with our lives.
Ditto the relationships with the Ss in our lives. At some point we all have to consciously throw the switch in our brains and focus on other things than the S. It boils down to how much more of our lives do we want to waste on the people who have done us so much harm in our lives?
Tomorrow will be a year since I drove off S. I am happier today than I have ever been in my life. Tonight I am making osso bucco for my significant other (I’ve decided to upgrade him from newguy status). I also made my brownies which are so good that people tell me that sex pales in comparison to them. Things are pretty good.
Now if I could just solve that pesky unemployment problem…
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:42pm
heavenbound says:
Kim,
I just saw your post!
I don’t know how to heal without looking into my childhood and I don’t want to do that either.
I’m not sure I understand what you are asking so I’m just going to take a chance. Forgive me if I’m wrong
I once heard that if someone effected you that you had not forgiven and they were dead to sit a chair down in front of you and talk to them as if they were there. If this is what you are getting at. It sounds silly but you could say, “I blamed you for this and that and I want you to know that I realize you did the best that you could. I want to apologize for blaming you the last years of your life” and so on. I have done it with my eyes closed and imagining I was looking at them. I’ve done it with people that are still alive even, sometimes they don’t know what it is and don’t really need to know, but for me to go on i needed it.
It worked for me to move past some things and be responsible for the here and now (in some things). There are other things I’m still like a child and can’t seem to grow up.
Anyway, I’m sorry for not understanding exactly. I’m sorry your post didn’t get caught, I know how that can feel.
Love, Hugs, and Prayers, Heavenbound
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:58pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
Congratulations on the No Contact anniversary date!
You made brownies?
You could turn your significant other into a hot fudge brownie sundae.
The sheets will be a mess, but I guarantee you will forget about that pesky unemployment problem.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:00pm
Matt says:
Rosa:
I’m still trying to figure out the guy ahead of me in the check-out line at the Food Emporium today. All he had was 3 large tubs of Cool Whip. The mind boggles.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:05pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
Not even any strawberries to go with all that Cool Whip??
That’s hardcore.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:13pm
Hecates path says:
Matt – Congrats on the no-contact anniversay but even more *congrats* on “the having a happy healthy relationship” status. I am always inspired by your newfound happiness – and especially so given all that I know about the journey that you have made. from my earliest readings here, your words about the destruction the S wrought in your life helped me understand what had happened to me and the universality of the nature of sociopaths. That was a mouthful but I think you get it.
I also can appreciate how you (and so many others) have shared how your childhood/parents shaped your ealy life in ways that made S behavior seem “normal.” Ditto for me – and just like you I have come to a place where I will have no regrets when my mother leaves this earth. there is no “resolution” to the issues with her beyond that, and I accept that reality.
On a less therapeutic note… Given the lack of sex some LF’ers are enduring I think you either need to ante up some brownies or the recipe if your brownies are THAT good!
Enjoy your evening… and hello to all the rest of you wonderful “club” members!
Hecate’s Path
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:26pm
Stargazer says:
Skylar,
I read your ex’s old email to you where he was accusing you of being a drug addict…..this is coming from a drug dealer, correct?!!!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:29pm
Stargazer says:
Wow, this article hits the nail on the head. I observed this type of stupidity and blind faith for the 2 months I dated the S. He would lie very boldly about things that he was caught in the middle of, and expect me to believe him (which I did at first because he was SO convincing. I thought there’s no way he’s not telling the truth, as convincing as he sounds). Then there was the most blatantly stupid act of his entire career in con artistry. He called my bluff when I told him to stay out of my life or I’d turn him in to the army for adultery. He completely ignored me, thinking I’d never turn him in. Not only did I turn him in for adultery, but when I found out the army suspected he was committing fraud, I volunteered to be their star witness. He could have gotten away scott free, but because of his arrogance, stupidity and underestimation of me, he hung himself out to dry. He got convicted of fraud and adultery and punished by the army. I think that is why sociopaths always fail. They are so stupid and they underestimate others’ intelligence.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:40pm
skylar says:
Star,
LOL, that’s right, I take half of a lunesta Rx to sleep and he calls me a drug addict but he doesn’t mind selling drugs. Though he denies that he still does. He is getting sicker everyday.
Matt, congrats on your one year!! you are living proof that there is a prince charming. (that would be you AND your SO)
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:09pm
Isabell says:
Stargazer,
“He got convicted of fraud and adultery and punished by the army.”
Convicted of Adultry? Really? Is that a military thing? I live in a no fault state, and sadly the adultress relationship is a non-issue, legally.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:11pm
Stargazer says:
Isabell,
Yes, it’s illegal in the army. They are very strict and they take that stuff very seriously. I didn’t even know that until after I went NC. Someone told me. Even if they couldn’t prove adultery, they could have convicted him of an “inappropriate relationship.” Of course he lied to them and told them we were just friends. Turns out they believed me after all and got him for the adultery charge.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:16pm
Stargazer says:
Skylar,
That email reeks of sociopathy. There is gaslighting galore, projection, arrogance, power, control, and manipulation. Please remind me of why you are still in contact with him?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:19pm
skylar says:
because I think he’s funny?
oh and also because I’m a drunk and a drug addict? LOL.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:21pm
Stargazer says:
Mmmmmm…..brownies and cool whip. Never occurred to me to pair those two up.
Matt, you rock! You are a role model for the rest of us–and I don’t mean about the brownies. After all, I’ve never tasted your brownies. ha ha
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:21pm
Stargazer says:
Skylar,
Seriously. Do you realize he is a dangerous person?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:22pm
skylar says:
Star, I read your other post about getting a counselor. That’s great news. Which church is it? I mean which denomination?
I thought you were Jewish?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:22pm
skylar says:
Yeah, Star, but NC won’t make him any less dangerous to me. He holds grudges. Judging by how he has tried to ruin his little sister’s life just for being born, he isn’t going to forget about the woman who outsmarted him by taking the house and the RV.
The art of war: keep your friends close and your enemies closer. My P neighbor told me that.
Until I have the money and resources to completely disappear, I’m better off having some kind of contact so I know what he’s up to and so I can keep him off balance, make him think he’s winning because I show concern for him.
But PLEASE, let’s not get started because ever since you invented that vibrating silicone skillet, everyone has been trying to boink me wiht it. They just need an excuse.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:27pm
skylar says:
KIM? are you out there?
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 9:37pm
skylar says:
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Does.....amp;sr=1-1
I hit paydirt when I posted on a chat site about sociopaths.
lots of people are still talking about it.
one person just posted about the above book. Read the first review by “groovy vegan”. It sounds like a really good book.
Has anyone read it?
Why does he do that? by Lundy Bancroft.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:10pm
style1 says:
Rosa,
That Karma Karma Chameleon was perfect.. Mine was a complete Chameleon.. and blamed everything in his life on Karma. He lived in an altenate universe where he thinks that he is so above everyone else in the world.. although his life is a complete mess. He thinks that he knows better than anyone else about almost everything. And he thinks of himself as this major businessman although, has only has had ordinary successes then failed at them all to become now, a consultant for a company that sends him all over the country and are in complete control of his life and they pay him little compared to what he does. He is broke, but talks about having millions. He has no home but talks all the time about the two houses that he is going to have ’someday’.. one on the ocean and one in the mountains.. while now, he lives in an empty apt and he is approaching 60.. so like someone else wrote, he is losing his looks and charm with still having two children under the age of 15 to support, but he still lives in his alternate universe of him being some kind of King in a past life.. looking for his Queen…. He is pathetic. He is a serial marrying man.. he asks a woman to marry him in the first three weeks..that is his lure ‘marriage’ Yeah,, marrige to a man with debt, little income and tons of responsibilty .. he wants someone to share his burdens.. He is a nightmare.. and SKylar.. Stop interacting with your guy…
THe longer I go without any interaction the better that I feel..
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:41am
skylar says:
Looks like our problem is a lack of ICE!
From an article at Scientific American:
http://www.scientificamerican......path-means
In a 1976 study anthropologist Jane M. Murphy, then at Harvard University, found that an isolated group of Yupik-speaking Inuits near the Bering Strait had a term (kunlangeta) they used to describe “a man who … repeatedly lies and cheats and steals things and … takes sexual advantage of many women—someone who does not pay attention to reprimands and who is always being brought to the elders for punishment.” When Murphy asked an Inuit what the group would typically do with a kunlangeta, he replied, “Somebody would have pushed him off the ice when nobody else was looking.”
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 12:16pm
Rosa says:
Oh yes, Style1, you are right on. They are brilliant chameleons.
And, once you know what you are dealing with, and you DISENGAGE, it actually becomes very entertaining.
Watching them go from abuse, to pity, to flattery, to intelligent conversationalist, to charm, and back to abuse.
It always comes back to abuse, though.
As subtle as it may be, abuse is still abuse!
I think the one constant in their life may be their pathological lies.
~I miss Culture Club.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 12:18pm
style1 says:
Rosa,
Mine once he realized that I wasn’t out of the fog that he spun around me.. turned verbally angry and accusatory.. When he could see that I wasn’t buying what he was selling he plotted his course out behind my back… then sprung it on me as fast as he entered my life was as fast as he left.. and even though I wanted him out, the way that he did it caused me to react in shock and want him back for awhile.. he withdrew his attention, once he realized the sale was not happening.. because he wanted to close the sale. One time, in the end he told me on the phone that he will tell me what he wanted me to know.. He started revealing himself in an obvious way. He couldn’t maintain his slick facade. His walls were cracking..
And I do recall in the beginning how he tried to tell me what I was ’supposed’ to feel. He made me feel sick. Had I not been preoccupied with my move, I never would’ve been in his gig.. Not an excuse, I take responsiblity but he really went all out to pull me in…
He doesn’t contact me or hasn’t in a long while.. and towards the end I was contacting him.. the tables had turned.. he knew that he couldn’t con me and I was just feeling the void.. He told me that every woman wanted him backand this is why.. he yanks her in.. then leaves fast.. I am sure that this feeds his fragile ego… So, SKYLAR … that is when I decided NO MORE CONTACT… It is just the void he left that I am dealing with, not really missing him.. and the longer I stay in any kind of contact, the more it hampers my ability to clearly and cleanly move on.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
style1 says:
I meant to write that I was out of the fog that he spun.. he turned verbally angry and accusatory..
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 12:31pm
Rosa says:
Yes, Style1, they can turn very ugly when they realize the gig is up and the con is over.
And that can be dangerous, especially if you have one with poor impulse control.
That’s why I would never confront a sociopath in my everyday life.
And I would encourage others NOT to engage, as well.
Get yourself & your children to a safe place first.
Then confront the sociopath, ONLY if you have to, WITH the authorities or someone with you.
Otherwise, it’s NO CONTACT all the way!!!
There are articles on this website (like Kelsi Miller’s story) about women who did NOT make it to safety.
Anyway, you are a very smart woman, and it is great that you are free from him.
I’m glad you are here and that you are safe.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 1:07pm
lostingrief says:
yes, they can get out of control because so many have poor impulse control. when the s/p/n of my past realized i was totally on to him, he happily moved in with the OW and has left me alone for the most part — even though we were together for 25 years.
our safety, and that of children involved, is paramount. you just never know which way these non-humans will go.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 1:12pm
ErinBrock says:
kunlangeta……
Okay…now it’s clear why he wouldn’t take that arctic cruise with me…..he knew of my Inuit ancestry…….
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:34pm
slimone says:
Saw the nutbag walking down the street, near my house. I was driving by….what I wouldn’t have done for a little seal hole. I like the Inuit solution!
Steve, I know I do flatter and go on, when ever you post. But jeepers, you KNOW how to do it. Thanks for another ispiring and clarifying/validating article. Glad you are on the planet.
Kim, I read alot, but post little. But I wanted you to know that I also, like many others here, was raised by someone mean/abusive/negligent/ignorant and narcissistic. It is quite a process, and has been a loooooong one for me, to get to ‘neutral’ and take the reins of my own life in hand. I spent 15 or so years being angry/sad at my mother, and my stepfather who worshipped her butt. Some of those years I spent drinking and carousing to dull the anger and depression. Spent nearly 20 years in therapy. I don’t know what my point is….other than to say that perhaps I can relate to the frustration of wanting to move the f*** on and having it be such a process.
You are definitely NOT alone in this. Big cyber support to you Kim, in your process……
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 5:25pm
style1 says:
His irritational optimisim was attracted at first.. I think it’s a part of what hooked me in.. I watched him and listened and thought, he ’seems’ intelligent, was once on the board of a Bank, has a good education, so if he ‘beleives’ that these far-fetched business deal could happen.. then they very well might..
when my intuition and common sense told me, that they seemed really far-fetched.. and none did happen.. one after another feel through…But he would not appear down and out.. he just kept on with his irriational optimism and when I would point out common sense business .. he told me that I was being negative and that I was not going to pull him down. So in the beggining that irritational optimism is what was attractive.. until l sas this man is delusional.. lives in fantasy land.. and is leading me on a path to nowhere.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 6:51pm
style1 says:
Gosh I have so many typos.. I hope my above post is clear.. yikes…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 6:52pm
style1 says:
This irritational optimism is really on my mind.. this was the biggest aspect to this guy. Reading through this site really helps to bring things out in awareness..
Because at first, it was nice being around such an optimistic person.. and his energy was way up there. He could talk to me to all hours of the night then work a 12 hr day.. I thought wow, this guy is something.. Of course, it didn’t seem to matter to him that I was exhausted talking to all hours. I even turned my phone off so that I wouldn’t hear it in the morning.. when he called.. he talked me to sleep and texted or phoned me in the morning.. it was too much.. but his energy and his optimism were attractive. It made me think that this man could do anything… Geez!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 8:33pm
slimone says:
Style,
This was a big draw for me too. And I went through the same mental gymnastics you describe. Thinking if he was so upbeat and positive even in the face of contradictory facts, then who was I to say he couldn’t? Or to disbelieve him and kill his ‘buzz’. And same thing, up all hours of the night, then off to a full day of whatever, without blinking an eye. Always expecting me to ‘keep up’ and keep that smiley face plastered on so he could keep looking at his own reflection.
I on the other hand was getting increasingly fuzzy-headed and off kilter with the krazy hours. And instead of thinking he wasn’t such a great match for my energy level, lifestyle, and attempt at ‘balance’, I doubted my own cycles and needs, favoring his pathological energy and optimism. His childish playfulness, malignant optimism, and energy were the hooks that had me.
Recently there was a lot of posting about the Law of Attraction. And I am not bringing this up to start a debate, or to play sides. But you said something in one of your posts today that made me aware of this being a big trigger for me.
I hadn’t realized it till today, not really. But this guy was Mr. Law of A. Money on his alter, pictures pinned to the fridge of what he wanted, used the lanuage of ‘manifesting’ all the time, even had a party where everyone came over and watched the video The Secret. And it was just an absolute ‘known’ by anyone who spent time with him that you DID NOT ever talk about issues in such a way that you were expressing personal ‘limitations’, doubt, practicality, or lack of desire. That was considered VERY unenlightened, and, GASP!, pragmatic. He and his crew considered this the height of spiritual bad manners.
I see now how spatholes use SO many things that have real meaning to elevate their personal pathologies to the level of idealism and realms of the deeply meaningful and personal. Of course it is a complete misappropriation and a con-cover.
So for anyone who read my previous posts on Attraction, and was offended. Please forgive. I did not realize how triggered I was by the topic.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 9:29pm
persephone7 says:
The first night I went out with this man, he asked a waiter to bring me a whole case of this incredible white wine I was having a glass of – I was impressed for a moment and then the waiter came back and said they were out of cases of that particular wine. I later wondered if he’d set that up with the waiter, if he’d done that to be impressive in the past…because after that it was one job lost after another for him – he had been wealthy and very successful at one point in his life (before me) and it was fascinating to hear about his glory days and the many places he’d been or lived over the years – all over the world. He was unlike anyone I had ever met or dated, but it didn’t take long for him to start borrowing money from me, never paying it back thoughit wasn’t huge amounts each time, but over 7 years – I do wish I had some of it back now! And it did get less as my own finances dwindled, partly due to his influence and needs affecting my outlook and my life.
But he always has had that optimism thing going for him, even down to us walking into a restaurant to get some take-out and I was thinking – great, he’s actually going to treat ME and that will be nice – when the young woman behind the counter gave the total, he just stood tall and said ‘I have no money’ and I felt my face flush and I had to get out my debit card – it was about $35.00 that I really didn’t need to spend at the moment and I was really blown away by his audacity. I advised him in other instances lately not to tell people that he’s ‘homeless’ – in a way I admired his honesty but tried to say to him that it wasn’t necessary to announce it to people. You would think I would have distanced myself at that point, but ever the irrational caretaker, I kept going with the skewed loving relationship I let myself cobble out of just getting to spend some days of what seemed like ‘good times’ with him.
There have been promises of repayment after IRS return checks (didn’t happen) and the latest – when he said a house in Mexico finally sold, he was going to take $10,000 of sale money and give it to me. I never expressed too much enthusiasm or even my own earned disbelief – I became so detached from it all while still maintaining what seemed like more and more, a really insane setup, one that always left me a few bucks short, less gas in my car, and pain in my heart – so my love has gradually been eroded, eroded, eroded.
and just last night he called at 1:30 am. – presumably from way away out of state – I’d forgotten to bring in phone that has caller i.d. and just grabbed phone near my bed as I was awakened and he said he was sorry he hadn’t been in touch, that he’d call me today (hasn’t) and I’m left thinking about what did I do to deserve being woken up – or neglected – or any other negativebehavior…is it just the enjoyment of ‘tweaking’ me or letting me know when he doesn’t like it when I don’t follow after him in any way…Why would you do this to someone who has demonstrated their love and support of you time and time again. I know I’m just stating what everyone else has here in their own way and words, lately it just hits me more and more that God has helped me dodge a bullet time and time again with this person, even when I kept putting myself in his sights, for that I’m grateful and hope I can stay that way, however painful it still feels, even the insanity of missing him in my life.
The Betrayal Bond just arrived today so it should help make things clear – besides being here with everyone – thanks for listening to this.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 9:42pm
ErinBrock says:
Persephone:
Curl up with a glass of that wine you never got.in case form….and dig on in to the book.
We’ve come a long way.
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 10:02pm
persephone7 says:
Erin:
Going to bed now, started the book and took the bubble bath…It means
alot to read that Patrick Carnes, the author was a victim himself. Thanks
for responding, it always feels good to hear your voice – and it is some comfort that yes, we’ve come a long way…
xxoo to you, maybe i’ll have wine with dinner, tomorrow…
Pers
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:32am
ErinBrock says:
Pers:
Nighty night……indulge in wonderful dreams tonight!
I love it that you take bubble baths!!! I can never seem to slow down enough to enjoy my tub……
Wine tomorrow!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:10am
style1 says:
Silimone, yours and mine were very similar and Persephone 7 also..
Mine combined his irritantional optimism with spirituality in the same manner.. if I talked about reality.. he called me negative and he didn’t want me to bring him down.. But what occurred was his irrational optimism brought me down.. as it is not based on anything real just hopes and dreams like buying a lottery ticket.. He even said that .. why not work on these deals, it cost me nothing and I could win big. I think that he thought of me the same way. He does enough to pull me in and he does pay for our dates, etc. (I do not go out with men that do not pay for all dates, sure I cook but going out if a man says he doesn’t have the money, I would not be with him, that is a sure sign of a slime) Mine was a very cunning con.. he knew what he had to do to get a woman like me to pay attention and he did it to the best of his ability. I think he probably wanted one of his deals to hit so that we could be and live like the pictured that he painted.. but it wasn’t based on any kind of real business dealings.. that I have ever seen. It was all too vague.And while I believe in universal magic and timing, I am not stupid and delusional. He lived in that place that if you wish it so, it will occur. Manytimes, he said “God love me. He won’t let me down.” And this was concering money and his deals. He had once been fairly successful and rode on that wave and it gave him credibility. Mine earned a okay living and he did work hard so that made him even more believable. But he knew to win a woman like me or another woman like me, he had to paint this picture. Because in reality most of his money goes to his kids with little left for him to even live much less with a woman. He always talked about talkng me places. If we were in an Italian restaurant, he talked about our trip to Italy. Well, we never went anywhere like that.. it was all talk.. and talk it cheap and to build up expectations with no ability to make them happen is a con. BUt for awhile, I enjoyed the dream but than after a year of nothing happening and his beginning to criiticize me and his his wierd religous obsession, I felt sick and like I had been on some sort of manipultive roller coaster and I wanted off. And sexually he was like nothing. I felt no warmth from him. He was good looking but had no sexual appeal for me.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:11am
Rosa says:
Stargazer:
Are you OK?
In my opinion, the blogger who posted to you at 9:27 p.m. on Friday, November 6, 2009 was abusive towards you when they made the following statement:
“But PLEASE, let’s not get started because ever since you invented that vibrating silicone skillet, everyone has been trying to boink me with it. They just need an excuse.”
In my opinion, this was abusive towards you, and the rest of us, for that matter. Because this blogger is not taking any responsibility for her own poor choices/actions.
Instead, this person put it squarely on YOU, glibly blaming it on a silicone skillet.
I think that is ridiculous.
No one here is looking for an excuse to criticize this person or anyone else.
This person has obviously settled into a mindset that is very resistant to change.
Even after Kathleen Hawk and OxDrover went to great lengths posting to this person.
Don’t take it personally, Stargazer.
Maybe you did not mind being addressed this way.
Or, you may have not even noticed.
I don’t know.
But, it jumped out at me, and it is NOT an isolated incident.
This is the same tone the ex-boyfriend used to take with me, and it’s how my sister-in-law speaks to my brother and niece.
If I am wrong or being overly sensitive, then I will just have to be minority of one.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:23pm
persephone7 says:
Rosa:
Maybe I’m wrong but that was Skylar saying that and I think, in her being
hurt she said that to Star in just a sly, funny way to further make her point about not wanting to have us go at her anymore about NC. She and Star
have seemed like they have had a really close friendship here and if
anything, I’d think Star is just sad that Skylar decided to take this time out.
I hope Star will respond herself…I think she understands Sky’s reaction
and statement. Both of them must know we all care for them and want
to stand up for them no matter what!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Style1,
yep, they want to be “impressive” LOL They think the appearance of money and “big talk” makes them “hot” or sets them apart from the “ordiniary”—ROTFLMAO Yea, I’ll take an “ordinary” guy any day over a bag of hot air! Actually, a bag of hot air is not all that bad, if it is a BALLOON!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:45pm
style1 says:
OxDrover.. yes.. inmy remembering, one say that we were working out where I workout and a trainer came up to us both and said you look like the kind of couple that would enjoy this class blah blah.. I said thanks we might check it out.. then when the trainer walked away..
My guy said you know why he approached us don’t you? I said no why.. he said becasue we look like we have money…
To which I responded no .. the dues I pay cover all classes so the class that he was talking about doesn’t cost more.. he approached us because we are a couple and into physical fitness…
TADA.. his mind is on his appearance and not what actually was…. sickening…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:03pm
style1 says:
sorry for all the typos.. i am typing so fast and keep hitting the wrong keys.. I should check my work before I post.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:03pm
style1 says:
This deal with Skylar.. I don’t know the whole deal, but it seems taht she is dead set on continuing contact and she got tired and offended when we suggested that its better that she not..
I was there after I first broke up.. friends said no contact and I continued with the contact a few months more and all it did was drag it out..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:06pm
witsend says:
persephone7,
The problem really lies in the fact that as with any self help forum/group there are many issues that we can all “agree to disagree” on but the issue of N/C is the ONE thing that doesn’t seem to apply.
Just as a “drinking” but recovering (?) alcoholic can’t find this same resolve at an AA meeting. That drinking alcoholic is going to be up against the same thing. Trying to find FULL “acceptance” at an AA meeting for his idea that he can drink and recover at the same time. It is a contradiction of terms.
What about the newcomer who is really hurting? (both here and at an AA meeting) This would be a mixed message given to them. Wouldn’t it?
Sometimes the absolute truth hurts. I think this was such a case.
For those that MUST have some contact (such as shared custody) the contact must be to a minimum and even then it creates problems as we have all heard from those that have shared this experience with us.
Myself included. I can’t have N/C with my son at this point. He lives with me. I will not be able to change him, out wit him, or figure him out, or keep him off balance during this time.
Until my circumstance changes I hope to not do any more harm to him (by SIMPLY NOT knowing how to interact anymore with a child such as this) or to myself.
For many here the “complete” N/C isn’t a choice. It is because of circumstance. (shared parenting ect)
I miss skylar to.
But it would be impossible for her “choice” of making contact with her X S/P/N not to be addressed here. I think it was addressed with love and support but it would never be able to be ignored.
It was a choice. Not by circumstance. And it became the “pink elephant” sitting in the middle of the room. You can’t just blog “around” it and pretend it doesn’t exist.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 4:20pm
OxDrover says:
Witsend,
Again, you are stating the obvious, but very eloquently and understandably. It IS the “pink elephant” in the room that no one is allowed to talk about to one person.
We do disagree to disagree on many issues, but I agree with you that NC (within the limits that are available) is one of the things we have to stand firm on. Lots of people here have broken NC and come back and said “It hurt me, I wish I had not done that” and I dont’ know anyone that threw “stones” at them for it. We (most of us anyway) have back slidden or like I did once in trying to get the Minister to help me stop my egg donor from sending my P son money and by doign this I was taking a RISK and I knew it and even as far down the road toward healing as I am it still STRESSED ME, hurt me and pithed me off. I knew it when I went into it and STILL it was a pain. It didn’t do any good (at least I didn’t have a lot of hope it would). that helped to soften the blow, but it DID pull scabs off and frustrate me.
I agree with you Witsend about others coming here and getting mixed messages about NC. I know that each of us must come to NC in OUR OWN TIME, and that we cannot dictate to anyone what is the right time.
I do hope that Skylar will come back, and sometimes people have to fall again and again before they get the idea how to walk, and unfortunately, sometimes with NC just as with NC with alcohol in AA, people are never able to come to that point, and usually it is not a great outcome…but it is their choice and it is Skylar’s choice to come here or not. I do know that we all tried to be supportive to her, and she didn’t accept it in the spirit it was given to her, but I don’t blame anyone, it was her choice and she is free to make her own life choices because she is the one who will have the consequences.
People come and go here all the time, they drop out silently, or they feel they no longer need the support here, or just get busy living, or move on in lots of ways, that’s just like real life…I wish Skylar well, and will keep her in my prayers. And Just like AA she will be welcomed back with all the support we can give her when she is ready.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:19pm
persephone7 says:
Witsend,
You’re right, and I’ve lived with my own elephant for too long.
I was out pruning (whether it’s too early or not, I had to clear a path to
my back door, felt like Briar Rose out trimming all those thorny bushes
just so you could find your way to her castle!) And I was thinking about
what Rhianna said about her reaction (after incident) to Chris Brown and
she said when she was around him now she felt resentment. Not bitterness,
but resentment and I noticed that was what I was feeling at times when
we were together – not a great feeling and not one to go along well with
true love. I never said anything but that was another sign that my
days of blind faith and ‘love’ for this person was over.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:22pm
JaneSmith says:
I don’t want to be a cause of any commotion or conflict on LF (I detest all created melodrama) but I think this should be said.
I reread Skylar’s comment to Stargazer and what I discerned from her was a ruefullness in tone. Like Style said, she was expressing a mild pique at being constantly told to go NC. No abusiveness whatsoever.
Really, shouldn’t we be supportive to her regardless of her situation with her ex? She’s a smart lady. She’ll do what’s right when the time is right for her.
And the simple fact that she is seeking answers and contributing her own experiences on here should be enough to just offer any type of support she needs.
We can’t force anyone to do anything, even if they may be in immediate danger. Yeah, I think it’s a good idea to express genuine concern and offer life-saving advice, but in the end each of us must choose our own way to solve problems.
I know I sound a bit preachy, and I do apologize. But I just want all of us to reflect on the fact that we’re the good guys/gals. We are in this together in being involved with one or more predators, exploiters in our lives. We understand implicitly how it feels to be treated like yesterday’s garbage.
I would humbly suggest that we continue holding hands, giving strong shoulders to cry upon, sincerely listening regardless of the circumstances and/or current situation of a member.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 6:06pm
witsend says:
JaneSmith,
I agree with you. And please forgive me if my post sounded unsupportive.
I certainly didn’t mean to sound that way! I wish skyler would return. Skylar has always been there for me and others and I miss her optimistic views. And her wonderful sense of humor.
I also stand by what I said (or at least ATTEMPTED to say) about if someone comes here and discloses that they are having contact that it isn’t something that LF bloggers will readily be affirming of. It does not mean (in my eyes at least) that we don’t love and support her. It means we can’t support her idea of being in contact with her X.
Jane Smith I seem to be one of those people that can not for the life of me ever portray with words what I am actually trying to say. For this I apologize.
Skylar if you are reading….I DO miss you. And I do hope you will return.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 7:22pm
skylar says:
JaneSmith,
your post was very insightful, you get it. And I appreciate that you had the backbone to post it despite the “cliquiness” that goes on around here. Yes, “cliquiness” has been mentioned before, by JillSmith and even by Tilly. It’s that subtle kind of peer pressue that everyone must agree with the group “leaders”, (you know who you are) whether right or wrong for fear of not having social standing. There’s alot of that pecking order stuff going on around here.
Persephone, at first you agreed that I had done nothing to deserve being ostracized, but as soon as someone disagreed, you flip flopped on the pink elephant. I won’t elaborate on how disappointed you made me because it won’t sound “nice”.
Forget the elephant Persephone, instead, look at the sycophant.
Then there’s Rosa, nice one Rosa. my XP pulled stuff just like that. In case someone missed the post by Rosa, it’s on this page just a few posts higher. Trying to make Star feel like I had “abused” her by planting that seed is exactly the kind of stuff my XP used to pull. Then of course, the whole community would rally for Star and against me and you would get …what? what would you gain? Nothing but pleasure right Rosa?
There’s a reason why the sociopaths call us sheep. All this empathy makes people want to huddle in a group and follow the leader. No one wants to stand out for fear of losing some of that precious empathy. Backbone is sorely lacking for fear of not being loved. The stuff Rosa pulled is their FAVORITE ploy.
Why can’t people have empathy AND their own opinions? Why must the sheep all jump off the cliff together? For christ’s sake, this is online, it’s not like your lives are hanging on this need for acceptance in an online community, you don’t need to cow tow or brown nose ALL THE TIME. Show some spine and think for yourselves. Maybe the sociopath is evolutions way of saving the human species from its own herd mentality. It’s a dangerous thing for the human race to become homogenous in either their genes or their memes.
I haven’t been afraid to expose my vulnerabilties here before and I don’t regret it. Kathleen and Star and Kim and many others have been there for me and offered precious advice. I appreciate everything they have shared. But I know my situation better than anyone.
Matt, you told me to go see a lawyer and I did, but none helped me. Did you notice how I and I ALONE, got my xP to drop all his demands for $70,000? I can read him. Right now he is AFRAID OF ME. He is trying to go NC on me, but now I’m not letting him. The shoe is on the other foot.
I already told you that I have no feelings for him. I’m not “going back to him”. I’m just keeping tabs on him. I repeatedly made this clear to all of you, but you all just keep freaking out with your phony EMOTIONS. Well, I CHOOSE, when I have emotions and I CHOSE TO HAVE NONE FOR HIM. He does not control my emotions.
I also CHOSE to have EMOTIONS for many people on LF. It was a mistake. I have been hurt. It made me feel sick. That is something the P cannot do to me, but you guys could and you did.
So now I CHOOSE, to stop feeling for you. The first step is NC. After some time the feelings will go away and they won’t come back.
It’s too late for me to come back, I have ZERO tolerance for pain now. But I hope I’ve inspired some of you to stop putting up with the peer pressure and sheep mentality. Take the good advice and then form your own opinions. No one here is going to save you – your path is your own.
If you can see your path laid out
in front of you step by step,
you know it’s not your path.
Your own path you make with every step you take.
That’s why it’s your path. – joseph campbell
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:46pm
Rosa says:
Jane Smith says:
“I reread Skyler’s comment to Stargazer and what I discerned from her was a ruefullness in tone.”
Me too. I agree with you Jane Smith.
And, it’s very interesting that you used the phrase, “ruefullness in tone”.
The term “rueful” means to inspire PITY or compassion; causing people to feel PITY.
I think we all have met someone who used pity to manipulate us at some point in our lives, right?
Jane Smith also said, “she was expressing a mild pique at constantly being told to go No Contact.”
She did this at Stargazer’s expense. She should have done it at her own expense.
Stargazer has not posted since Friday evening, November 6, 2009. At least, I have not seen her.
Stargazer, I miss you, & I hope you come back.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:49pm
persephone7 says:
Skylar:
I was glad to see your name and post again. But I’m sorry you feel the way you do or
that this group was somehow saying you should be ostracized or not welcome here at all.
I didn’t think that was what was being expressed or anything to be ‘agreed’ upon or
to be taken sides about. I did feel when I came back and read JaneSmith’s post that
I agreed with her sense that as an online support group, it could still be an open door
policy to anyone, at whatever stage or approach they chose to find their healing. But
I think it was your choice, not anyone’s decree – that you stay away until you committed
to NC.
I feel no matter what I say now, you see it as being said in a sycophant fashion. I didn’t
think I flipflopped or withdrew support for your decision to not go NC – when I said “you’re
right’ to Witsend’s post it was more about my own realization FOR MYSELF that trying to
still even think about contact down the road, or still being conflicted about NC was not
going to do ME any good – that my own ‘elephant’ was that I’d gone years without trying
strict NC and it had done me no good, more pain and disappointment had resulted. I
spent many nights at Al-Anon years ago to understand alcoholism in my second husband,
and determined after awhile that I’d learned enough and would move on in my life
alone with the knowledge and not be forever part of that group – though I’m forever
grateful for having it available to me. And through being with an alcoholic, during his
times of drinking and then periods of recovery and abstinence, I could see that NO
drinking for him was the only way to get well. And it does seem, no matter how smart
I may feel, how knowledgeable, how well I’ve come to know this person who ‘only’
emotionally abuses me, I think I get it that it is just bigger than me – that I have to
be part of a ‘group mentality’ or go along with the ‘experts’ and just go NC.
For me, and I’m not kissing up to you…I always admired the way you have always
been honest about your continued non-NC, you put it all out there and you’ve always
been so insightful, smart and funny. I ‘ve identified with you because, bottom line – I
never have been part of a real group, especially of women and decided to give this
online group a try – I’d gotten to the point I felt like I needed to try something different,
that I needed to reach out to other women (and men) like myself in this one important
relationship addiction aspect. Yet I still struggle with just lumping my own situation and
love for this person who has been so important to me into a group label or classification.
Perhaps it is just another diversion, with everything going on in my life with my sister,
my finances and trying to get healthy and resolve this soul-draining relationship once
and for all – I’ve needed to plug in somewhere,get some support, read, write, be inspired and feel useful in sharing my own thoughts and experience.
I have probably spent too much time here lately and have probably wanted on some level to be part of ‘the gang’ a bit, instead of just spending the time I need to be working on my art, alone. So I’ll do that now – I’m not sorry for posting here – I’m not sorry for trying to
give others some good juice or pats on the back, it was not for my own ‘advancement’
here.
And Skylar, I think Rosa simply misunderstood your post to Star, she did not have that
complicated agenda you spoke of at all.
I wish everyone well, hope Star is ok and I respect you Skylar, I’m sorry you felt
this disappointment in me or anyone else.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:17pm
Rosa says:
I stand by everything I posted.
I don’t feel that I misunderstood anything.
I also understand that others may not share my point of view.
That’s fine.
We have different opinions on this website all of the time.
It does not bother me at all.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:33pm
keensight says:
Hi Skylar -
I just read that you may not be posting on here any longer
because of the way you were addressed. If you read this I
hope you know that I agree with you about noticing a pecking order on the posts and that I’m sorry you choose to leave
because of this.
If this forum is truly one that is for the expression of equals
in the realm of experiencing sociopathic harm (at whatever
place on the scale) then each person’s expression of their
thoughts and choices should be dignified with respect.
I’ve noticed some overt and very subtle flaming on here that I find interesting in that the very premise of the site is to assist in recovery. I could go into more specific detail, but I’ll take it as Pema Chodron suggests, and just watch it float past like water on stream.
If there are some dominant personalities on here that are unable to just accept another’s point of view without correcting
or attacking one’s choices or opinions overtly or subtly, so be it!
I hate to think that would dissuade you from sharing your experiences and your wonderful wry wit. You’ll be missed,
but you must remember, every survivor on here isn’t a sheep,
nor are they willing to be offended by overt or subtle language used to discourage “freedom of speech” or expression of one’s conscious choices.
I hope you come back. I love your wit and humour.
Take care.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:42pm
shabbychic says:
Rosa, I’m glad it doesn’t bother you at all, I also disagree with everything you posted, I don’t know why you started all this, skylar was not being abusive to Star and did not express herself at Star’s expense, have you not read in the past few weeks how much skylar likes and admires Star???
So you go ahead and stand by everything you posted, who are you? Don’t point your finger at people unless you want it pointed back at you… we’ve all read you posts.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:51pm
ErinBrock says:
In regards to the above post. I find it very interesting the contradictions and judgements that are PROJECTED onto the LF community.
I don’t buy it and I believe they are personal attacks to hide pain.
We all make our own decisions, this is a public group, all welcome…but we don’t always agree…..
The hairs raised on my neck a few months back when the poster stated she was going to create a ‘crisis’ and dramatic words followed, she can’t be stopped etc…. (this is not verbatum, I can’t locate the post). This showed insight into a volitile personality. I had someone in my life that liked to live that way, in order to justify making decisions.
Quite frankly, if we want to heal great…..move on down the path…..if we want to hold onto the past and keep on living the game…..great……
But….your in a support system here, a forum of opinions, and don’t be shocked when you hear an opposing opinion…..if you don’t like it disregard it…
But lashing and judging……Sheep, empathy comments…cliquiness, ….the attempt at creating a ‘crisis’ here is pathetic. I see it as an attempt at controlling a forum and splitting people off……it’s been attempted here before.
The poster admittedly plays games with an S…..so why are we shocked that games of control and manipulations may be played on the forum?
As stated, this is an oline forum…..I have never EVER viewed it as a popularity contest…..I respect all as equals….why would we have anything else here?
Popularity contests are nothing I would have ever imagined here…..I do not see a point? We are all equals…..and I am sure, if we all met, the real world ‘highschool’ type of cliques would develope after…..it’s natural….
But when we are all anonymous and on the same playing field by not knowing who’s the prettyest, the smartest, the richests, drives the nice cars, biggest house, best jobs, best views, best offices, yada yada…or any other topical stupidity that immature judgements make….If anyone has any more ‘footing’ here other than Donna…..I SURE HAVE MISSED IT!!!! I believe any personal feelings of ‘not being welcomed’ is something that one should explore from within.
So…..once again….a lesson in NC….if your gonna do it….do it! But don’t come back and start crap on a site that has offered you such support and has respected your contributions.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:57pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Just a quick comment.
We talk out of where we are. A lot of times, where we are is in an emotional state, and it is the emotions talking.
Getting over a trauma, the whole path of trauma processing, takes us through a lot of different emotional “worlds.” And a great deal of the work done here on Love Fraud is in angry phase. That is prickly, defensive, judgemental and it can extend to mild paranoia and conspiracy theorizing.
Other than the occasional lurker, there are no “bad guys” here. The nature of our work makes it inevitable that we’re going to get our feelings hurt occasionally. We’re all very personal with each other. We feel like it’s okay to make comments in ways that would never be accepted in many other mutual support forums. (And even in AA, cross talk about each other’s issues is not acceptable. Our sponsors may give us hell, but in group sessions, we’re supposed to talk about ourselves, not give advice to other people.)
In additon, we don’t necessarily define support in the same way. Our ways of giving comfort and caring are shaped largely by what we want from other people. That may not be what other people want from us.
Bottomline, it would be nice if we could just remember that everyone is in their own stage of healing. As far as Skylar goes, she’s doing what she needs to do for herself, just as we all are. Blaming each other, while understandable if our feelings are hurt, is not particularly productive. We cannot require that we all be exactly alike or agree. Even about NC. Everyone has their own method of navigating recovery, and we’re all entitled to choose for ourselves. We can share our own experiences, but when we criticize someone else for not doing it our way, I think we’re stepping over the line.
I think we’re also entitled to our own feelings about Skylar, but again if we try to talk anyone else into sharing those feelings, that’s recruiting, not sharing. Again, we do not all have to agree. If we did, this forum would be awfully boring, and none of us would learn anything.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:02am
JaneSmith says:
Thank you all for your comments. I may have included incorrect terms in my post, but I think the meaning was clear.
And, Skylar, it’s not that I have backbone, but that I am pursuing harmony among a group of people with whom I respect, admire and adore.
Don’t believe me? Why do you folks think I keep coming back to LF? I haven’t had any type of intimate contact with a predator in over 2 years. And that last one was barely in it. Threw him to curb, quickly.
But he was the catalyst that caused me to realize almost all my former involvments were dysfunctional and unhealthy. There was something broken in myself that allowed them in, so I had to work on that alongside analyzing and clearing out bad memories.
Seriously, I love all of you people. ALL of you. I don’t have negative feelings or thoughts about any of you, so it does cause me to be confused when there is conflict.
Skylar, there are no chosen leaders on this website. Except Donna who has the first and last word. LF is her love child. She is the person who decides what will be acceptable and what will not.
We are friends. Don’t you see that? Or am I just so incredibly naive.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:58am
kim frederick says:
Skylar, I went to bed Friday night with my pantys in a wad, woke up Saterday and determined that I was just going to fade away, gracefully, and probably no one would even miss me……( that is my wounded child talking). I didn’t even touch the computer on Saturday, but Sunday, being in a somewhat better frame of mind, I checked in and all this is brewing………
I sometimes feel neglected here. Sometimes, ignored. Rarely critisized. I know sometimes my ideas or opinions aren’t popular, but they ARE always sincere. We all have issues, and sometimes they aren’t the same as everybody elses.
It’s painful to share a very deep part of yourself and feel it is being brushed aside, or critisized or even not fully understood.
But it’s important to see that we are all human, and subject to human frailty.
I don’t believe anyone here was deliberatly trying to hurt me. And I know no-one was trying to hurt you, when ryingto convince you NC is what you need to do.
I think (said as kindly as possible) that your wounded child is showing via your defensiveness. If you were truly confidant that your choice was the right choice you’d just do it, and f— everybody elses opinion. That’s my personal perception.
You are one of a handful on this sight that I have gotton to know on a somewhat personal level, and I hope I haven’t lost you. We’ve had a lot of fun together, and I will miss you terribly.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:29am
OxDrover says:
Guys, I think each of you have had some insightful posts on this and some messages to Skylar (if she ever comes backk and reads, and I think she will, I hope she will) but why don’t we drop this discussion now. Kathy put it pretty well I think, and janie’s peace making was well taken as well.
It is up to sky now if she comes back or not, and I think we need to get back to our own issues. People come and go here for various reasons, with angry door slamming or with just fading away quietly. There are a few of us “old hands” that have been here a year or more, but if you go back through the posts a year ago there are very few of us that are “still here” Most of the time those people I think have gotten whatever it was they needed and wanted here and moved on to other things. Some people “got it” and some people didn’t I think.
Our jobs are to work on ourselves and to provide whatever insight we can to others—I think it is like bird feeding, you put it out there and some birds will fly in and fill up, come will come in and take a seed or two, but there isn’t any way you can fill up all the birds in the world. We just do the best we can to provide the feed and encourage them.
The parable that Jesus told about the SOWER is a good one. You scatter the seed, some falls on stones, some on the road, and some on the good soil. Some sprout and produce fruit, and some are eaten by birds, and some start out growing, but their roots are in shallow soil and they wither away. We just scatter seed and what “soil” it falls on is not our responsibility. We’ve done the best we can. Every seed we scatter, no matter how lovingly is not going to produce fruit. That is up to the “soil” that accepts it or not. (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:07am
persephone7 says:
Oxy, I can see and agree with you that the issue with Skylar can be put
to rest. I’d just like to add that it’s important here to remember how much
our words to others can help with their healing or contribute to further hurt.
As we know from our experiences away from here, words – verbal abuse -
is a very powerful thing. Skylar may have done me a service in a way –
I think I will go away for awhile and just paint now, be quiet and absorb
all the good and inspiring things I’ve read here.
I’m not upset, not saying good-bye – just a big thank you to you all and
will be hoping you’re all on your own roads to much happiness and better
relationships. Thanks especially to Donna for starting this site – it was there
when I really needed it. And good luck, Erin – I’m going to keep praying
you find that paint pot of gold!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:08am
witsend says:
Kim frederick,
I am sorry that you were feeling that you could fade away quietly and no one would have missed you. I know that I would have missed you and I am certain others would have as well.
If it is any consolation I think maybe we have all felt this from time to time. I know I have. There was a period that I thought about not coming back here. I convinced myself that because my problems were concerning my son this wasn’t a place that I could relate to others nor could many relate to me.
Then to my dismay I saw that I COULD relate to so many because I had been with my sons father and he had many of the traits of an S/P/N. I had just always thought the addictions were the “problem” in our relationship. Because that is how I was raised. To over look things whats “really” going on. To excuse the behavior.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:29am
kim frederick says:
Thank you, Witty. I appreciate that. Sometimes I think I alienate myself. Don’t know why, but maybe I’ll take a look at that. Do you rememberthe cliche in AA, “I suffer from terminal uniqueness.” Sometimes I do. Andit’s certainly not good for me. Thanks again. (((HUGS)))
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:35am
witsend says:
Kim Frederick,
Yes I do remember that cliche. I actually remember and use alot of the AA principles in my life. I went to alon also, but I learned alot more at open AA meetings. It took me a long time to “get it” but once I did it was a life saver for me. I was able to work through many of my childhood issues at this point in my life.
I have a HUGE problem with isolating myself. All of my close G/F are married. And we do share alot of things in common and get together sometimes. However there is alot of time in between that I spend alone with me, myself and I.
I can be my own worst enemy when it comes to motivating myself to do things alone…..I JUST don’t want to!
I like to go to auctions by myself (I can focus better if I want to bid) if they are close by to where I live. And I used to like to take walks with my dog when she was younger in nice weather. But now that she is blind I can’t make myself go for a walk w/o her.
Maybe we should all brainstorm on some ideas to help motivate each other to go out there and try to enjoy doing some things alone? Alot of us seem to be in the same boat.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:53am
kim frederick says:
Witty, You just made me remember this. When I was 23 I moved myself and two small children to a new state to be with my military boy-freind (whom I later married.) Anyway, a few months later, he went to sea, and I was so lonely, as I didn’t know anybody. So once a week, on a Friday night, I hired a neighbor lady to baby-sit for a few hours, and I would take two busses into the city, to go to an old theater and watch Alfred Hitchcock movies in black and white. It cost me 70 cents in bus fare and 50 cents for the movie.
At the time, I was quite impressed with my independance.
I wish I had that same spirit now. I’m pretty complacent, and just down-right lazy a lot of times. LOL. I must be getting old.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:08am
jillsmith says:
JaneSmith,
I second what you said about Skylar. I want to stay out of any of this drama completely, but I really like Skylar, so I have to speak up for her. I didn’t think she sounded “abusive” at all. I think we all have been cranky on here from time to time. I went back to my exS once after leaving him for good. We’re all human and all of us have different circumstances. I feel she deserves and still needs support even if she is with her S. I think she needs it all the more then, if he is isolating her from others in her life, IMHO. We’re all at different stages. That’s just my opinion.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:33pm
jillsmith says:
OH and Kim, I would miss you for sure. You’re one of my very favorite posters on this board. I learn a lot from you and you have great empathy.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:35pm
jillsmith says:
Oxy,
I read your above post AFTER I posted my post to Skylar. I just read Jane Smith’s post about it and wanted to give my quick “ditto” to her post. I don’t know that much about the situation, as I’ve been away from the board for about a month (doing some healing of my own). Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that I wasn’t disrespecting you by continuing on the subject after your post because I hadn’t read it yet. I just wanted to give that quick message of support for Skylar, in case she comes on here to read it.
I’ll also admit that maybe she did post something abusive that I must have missed. Maybe it’s on another thread, was deleted or maybe it’s because I just skimmed this thread and missed it. So, I’m not a good judge on the situation and even if I were, I wouldn’t want to be. I just wanted to support Skylar and let her know I care.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:39pm
jillsmith says:
Now I read the whole thread closely and I’m just plain confused. I have no idea what went on or what is going on so, just consider all of my above posts deleted. I’d delete them if I could. I obviously missed some kind of drama.
I was “dittoing” Jane Smith’s first above post where she said that she thought Skylar deserved support, no matter what stage she was at, however she put it. Then, I read another of her posts later on that was in response to Skylar that was different, so it is confusing and seems like I was probably saying I was agreeing with everything from her most recent post, but it was in reference to the post about how we should be supportive of Skylar. I really don’t know what is going on, Skylar, but if you come back on here, please know I care and will miss you. I hope you are well and that you continue to take care of yourself. Good luck with everything.
If Skylar was abusive to any of you, like I have read a couple of you claim she was and I missed it, please don’t think I’m discounting your abuse. If she had angry words at you that I missed, please don’t think I don’t care about that or you or am just brushing that aside. I think I just missed it the first time around and still think I’m missing many parts of the puzzle. I’m sorry for all of your pain. Best of luck in your recovery from your pain and triggers.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:52pm
persephone7 says:
jillsmith – maybe you’d like being called a sycophant after thinking you’ve
been trying to post here in a supportive way. I realize how long Skylar
has been here and is well-liked, deservedly so. And she apologized, I’m
ok with it but a bit hurt that no one stood up for me, I still am confused
and don’t even know how I ‘flipflopped’ on her.
So here I am checking back, pretty lame and when I was in my shower
earlier I regretted not saying anything to Kim here myself in my ‘ kind of
goodbye’ – I’ve always enjoyed your posts myself, Kim and would have
missed you. Guess my own wounded child kicked in. And Oxy, you and
Erin were always supportive of me and gave good advice, thanks for
taking the time in the past. And Now, I feel I can drop this.
Right now I’m dealing with my sister’s illness and feeling kind of ‘invisible’ with my brother and sister’s husband in getting the paperwork
together so we can sell my deceased mother’s place in Calif. – so if I
seem too sensitive or crabby myself right now, that’s part of the deal.
I’m going to let you all have your site back now…
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:56pm
witsend says:
Kim Frederick,
I used to do the SAME thing when my kids were small! Things I wouldn’t dream of doing now by myself.
I think as you get older you ask yourself….How important is it?
Why go to see that movie alone? Just wait and rent it later..LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:02pm
OxDrover says:
Jill, “abusive” is not the term I would use, angry is one I would use. That’s okay, people are ok to feel angry if they want to. I don’t think anyone here abused her, but we stood our ground about the importance of NC which she did not agree with, in her own case at least. It is her right to think what she wanted to, and to take our advice or leave it. The same right we all have. I didn’t think you disrespected me in any way.
See that’s the thing, I can give my OPINION and it is mine. If you like it, OK, if you think I am wrong OK. If you try to persuade me that your opinion is right and mine wrong, that’s okay too. We can agree to disagree.
Some people have problems with disagreements. They feel that we all have to agree, or that they should or could persuade us. maybe we feel like it is important to persuade them. So sometimes people get angry and go away, but in any case, any time there is ANGER expressed here, it throws everyone into a tizzy I think. If it is a blogger who gets angry, or a TROLL who comes by and pithes people off. It always seems to result in someone getting mad.
When I first came here several years ago, there was a gal came on here and got really angry at me and one other poster over NC and accepting responsibility for our own choices. She flamed me and really hurt my feelings, and then she went away, dragging another poster with her. DRAMA. UNnecessary drama.
I no longer get my feelings hurt by anything anyone says to me here on the blog. I’m past the stage where I can be hurt by some poster. We are each responsible for our own feelings, and I own mine. I do get irritated when a troll comes through and disrupts things. People do get into arguments with them and the best thing to do is to IGNORE THEM. I probably should have ignored Sky more than I did, but Sky had been here long enough that I truly cared about her and wanted her to heal. I still believe as long as she chooses contact and drama with this man it will keep her from doing the work that will heal her, but HER CHOICE is HER choice, not mine.
I think it is just time we let Skylar make her own decisions, quit second guessing OURSELVES over it. I don’t think anyone here abused her and I don’t think she overtly abused anyone here. She had the choice to become angry, she had the choice to stay or leave. It is not our ‘fault” she left, we are not to “blame” and I dont’ think anyone here should feel guilty about it.
I think there is an OPPORTUNITY her for us to assume “blame” on ourselves, or to “feel guilty” about Sky choosing to leave….but it was HER decision.
We cannot and should NOT feel guilt that someone else gets offended by our posts if we are not abusive and name calling. Everyone here can have an opinion. As long as they are not abusive or name calling, opinons are okay. My opinion may be the world is flat and you may disagree with me and try to convince me it is NOT FLAT. I can either agree that you convinced me, or remain in my opinion that it is flat. MY choice, and if I get mad that you wopn’t even consider my opinion as possibly valid then that is MY problem not yours.
Or I can just say, Jill, I think the world is flat and you think it is round, why don’t we agree to disagree and move on to discuss other things. I said that at one point to Sky, and then I got sucked back in to discuss the NC issue with her, as others did, and then she got mad and left. That is her option. I don’t feel guilty or to blame for her leaving, or make excuses of why she left. The point is, she was set in her opinion and I was set in mine. She had the choice to stay and talk about other things, but she chose to feel angry and that we had abused her….nagged her maybe, but not abused…but I don’t feel guilty that she left, only sorry that she did, but her choice. I very much enjoyed some of Sky’s posts.
I just think it is time to move on to another subject. That is my opinion and others can agree with it or not. I’m not the owner of this site, Donna is and in the end, Donna makes the rules. I can only make suggestions or give my opinion.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:03pm
jillsmith says:
WHOA! WHOA! Slow down horsey! WHOA!
I’m not reading all fo these comments. They all came up within a couple of minutes. I couldn’t get past the first sentence of persephone’s comment and felt triggered. I think it was the sarcastic tone, “maybe you’d like being called a sycophant after thinking you’ve
been trying to post here in a supportive way.”
Ummm. . . no. I wouldn’t like that. I admitted I must have missed something and I guess that is the something I missed. I think I made it pretty clear I didn’t know what was going on or want to be in the drama and I even apologized for even posting at all in support of Skylar. Just because I want to say something nice to one LF poster who is hurting or in pain means I’m “on her side” or against someone else. I can support multiple people at once because this isn’t my issue or fight. I was just being nice to someone in pain and being respectful to the board and others while I did so. I obviously am not ready for this board yet for a long while still. Good bye again, for now. Take care all.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:13pm
witsend says:
persephone7,
Please don’t feel that you were invisible….I read your post and wanted to reply to you, but was torn. I just wasn’t sure if the subject was closed or still open.
I was also licking my own wounds, feeling that much of what I had tried to say might very well have been misinterpreted.
I think we all have something valuable to bring here.
I think it is time for a big cyber hug for everyone…
(((((Group Hug)))))
Please don’t feel like you are invisible! I think we all feel this from time to time. But I don’t think it is intentional on anyones part. Maybe it is more about how we are feeling that day, more so than what is going on here.
I know for me usually when I do feel invisible on here I am in a bad place to begin with.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:14pm
jillsmith says:
Edit: “Just because I want to say something nice to one LF poster who is hurting or in pain DOESN’T mean I’m “on her side” or against someone else.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:14pm
blueskies says:
Hello Lovelies:)xxx
Just wanted to put my two pennith waffle worth in and say that even the uncomfortable interactions I have had on here (even with the stinky trolls, or where I have flounced off) have all been, on reflection, extremely helpful learning experiences. xxx
I put up my hand and say that in my time here I have projected, and reacted thoughtlessly and in anger or pain or fear, and got cross and drawn in and felt unable to say something and so on and so forth (but not the majority of the time!xxx)but reflecting on WHY during those times my emotions were so RAW, and focussing on where my feelings were REALLY coming from, helped me NO END.
when we are extricating ourselves from, in some cases, lifetimes of skewed and manipulated vision, and skewed and manipulated emotion…. well…. shit happens:S
I KNOW that this is the place, WARTS AND ALL that I have gained more insight and real PEACE from (caveat:still gaining:xxx) than any other resource I have found in my hither to emotionally hand to mouth existence. With the good supporty stuff that helps us feel heard loved and valued AND the uncomfortable sticky bits that force us to look at ourselves and our part in perpetuating the damage done.
I love reading everyones contributions, I take it, I leave it now, I am nourished by it ALL….LF TAUGHT me how to do that:)xxx
BIG LOVES to you ALL xxxxxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:23pm
persephone7 says:
Witsend:
Thanks, Witsend – I appreciate your post and I know after last night for
some reason I was having a hard time letting this go – and it isn’t so much
about Skylar at this point. Maybe I’m tired of being ‘nice’, tired of taking
a back seat to others, so it’s my ’stuff’ and I won’t bore anyone here about
it – I really do think it’s time to just get it together with myself and lose
myself in art-making.
And Jillsmith – I wasn’t trying to be so incredibly sarcastic as you make it
sound – and we posted over each other. My post was made in response to your EARLIER response, which you admitted might have
missed some of what had transpired.
So Oxy, please don’t go after me with skillet, go after new subject –
this one is in the can! I’m in on the hug, see you here at some point
later…
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
blueskies says:
:S crap – I just read that back and I sound like I am feeding on y’all. OMG LF has turned me into a sociopath! (ROFLMAO! ……and this is the point where you guys rush in and say Noooooooo! you’re ace Blue! Chortle!xxxxxxxxxx)
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:29pm
skylar says:
Oxy,
the only person who brought up the word abuse was Rosa.
She pointed her finger at me and said I abused Star. My words to Star were “PLEASE….” that was not abusive. I like talking to Star, and would rather discuss other issues with her and agree to disagree on this one.
Why Rosa had to start that kind of conversation with the word “abuse” is a clear RED FLAG.
After I asked Star to please not discuss my contact with the xP, 2 more posters started to question me. I didn’t mind at first but I’ve answered all the questions and I don’t understand why I need to repeat those answers. Anyone can look them up in previous posts. So I get the impression, that no one is listening. Rather than a discussion about NC, it is just a “lets gang up on Skylar session”. It made me mad. I just want it to stop. I feel like I’m talking to a brick wall, that’s exactly how the P made me feel. It brought back memories because it took me by surprise. When the xP does it now, it isn’t a surprise and doesn’t bother me.
Jillsmith,
thanks for your supportive words, I don’t think I was abusive but I did point out that people here do tend to have a crowd mentality and that it centers around specific people who speak authoritively. Why did you feel the need to apologize to Oxy for posting on this topic after she suggested that we end the subject? Do you feel like she is the authority that will tell you when and what you can post about? This is what I”m talking about. My P would tell me, “End of conversation”, after he was done talking and I hadn’t had a chance to express myself.
Oxy, how does that make you feel – not think – FEEL, when you read that Jillsmith had apologized to you for posting? It made me feel really sad.
Persephone, I thought you said you were ok. now it seems you aren’t? Your elephant comment hurt me but I accepted your apology. I’m completely ok with it. So why are you still upset over my comment which I have also apologized for? how many ways can I say I’m sorry?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:35pm
ErinBrock says:
To ALL of my Lf fellow survivors……
Let this be a lesson on how we take things personally! It is representative of the world and all the variables involved.
Also a lesson on Balance and our own awareness.
We are online buds….Donna has created a ’safe’ place to share our feelings and we all contribute to Donna’s ‘baby’ by participating in one way or another.
I think our responses are a fabulous way for us to explore ourselves, our emotions and our ‘WHY’ questions, when we feel blindsided. It’s a safe place to do this, because we can step away from the computer and no one see’s.
As much as I enjoy this site and all he members here…..I would not allow my ups or downs to be dictated by my online buds…..I will give no one that power over me now.
I learned that from the S.
This doesn’t minimize the importance of any of you, your input into my questions, or things I choose to share……
When the discernment starts here…..there is nothing here I haven’t heard in ‘real life’.
I see the psychology of it unfolding and I understand there are some that get a lift from the power, some attempt to feed a need, some smooth over, some acuse, some defend, some ignore and some step away.
This is life and we have all seen it and all the reactions towards us and our pain…..from family, friends, neighbors etc…
We are all bringing something to this LF table…..whether we agree or disagree….sometimes it is not obvious, and sometimes it hits us later.
There are lessons about ourselves in everything…..
Bottom line…..we can only depend on ourselves!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:39pm
jillsmith says:
Why I came back to this thread was because I was going to add another comment, which has now become a point which is moot for me. I saw all of the comments that had come up in those few minutes, read the comment that made me feel attacked and changed my mind. You see, I haven’t been on this site in a month, so I was just catching up. Skylar has helped me a lot in th past and I consider her a friend, so I just posted in support to her. I did so before I read her dramatic goodbye to us. My statement of support still holds to her and I’m capable of my own dramatics and I understand her feeling like she wanted to leave or say goodbye. I also had not read the big comment that everyone thought was abusive and I think I’m still missing a lot, but it’s not my drama or my business, so I’ll butt out.
I will still add the comment I was going to when I came back on this thread, before getting side-tracked by something that caught me off guard and hurt my feelings. I’m sensitive at this stage in my life, myself. I think many of us are. I can admit this and own it and work on it.
I WAS going to comment on some of the above comments about feeling like the board is a clique or that there are leaders who discount some posters or some posters’ opinions. I think this is a valid opinion that we shouldn’t all shoot down, but that’s just my opinion about it. People can and will do what they want to. That’s the beauty of how this board AND humanity works. We are different and disagree, like Oxy said. I think it is a valid OPINION only. I’m not saying it’s truth. I used to have this opinion, but I realize I was dealing with things in my life that made it so other things appeared differently than they were. I believe I can see what I want to or what I’m looking for in life.
I decided to make a decision about returning to this site. I asked myself some questions: What did this board offer me? Did it help me make positive changes? Why do I come to this board? Can it help me more in the future? When I am triggered here, what is the trigger and what can I learn about this trigger in my road to recovery? Can I offer anything to individuals or the community that will help? I did some soul searching and decided that when I’m feeling weak or at all vulnerable, this isn’t the best place for me to come. That is just what I decided for myself. Others might feel that this is the perfect place to come when they’re in this state. I need to get strong on my own first. My purpose for being here is to learn, become more educated, get coping ideas from other people, vent and I hope to be able to maybe touch someone else’s life or help them through what I’ve been through, through my posts, at some point. I think it is good and healthy for me, but like all things in life, I need to do “self checks” and keep monitoring myself. Just because I do not have a lump in my breast one day when I do a self-exam does not mean that I do not need to do one again and make sure I’m still healthy. That’s what I compare it to and how I think of it. Maybe, for those of you who are considering leaving the board completely, maybe this will help you not be so black-and-white, all or nothing about it and you still might consider coming back. I miss you and hope you all don’t leave. In the end though, I hope people do what is right for them and maybe the board is not right for EVERYONE.
I get my feelings hurt on here. I just did! And I was in a terrific mood and was on the way out the door to a party I planned with my son. I just did a quick stop-over while he was finishing his nap up before we left. I still got triggered and hurt and I haven’t felt triggered since I was last here a month ago. I should consider this fact as I’m doing my continual “self-exam” and I will. It gives me something to think about, but for now I still stand by my opinion that this is a healthy place for me to be, during certain times. I’m not going to “throw the baby out with the bath water”. I’m reassessing and I will come back when I feel healthy and happy again. For me, this is what works.
Although I can see some merit to those who feel this might have aspects of a clique, I don’t feel that anymore. If there are people who I feel are encouraging “group think” a bit too strongly, I ignore it. I know enough about myself and about how much I don’t want to let someone exert control over me and tell me how to act or thinnk enough to NOT do what they say. I also don’t need to make a big thing of it because while I might recognize this attribute to be a poor one of the person who is being enabling or controlling, that is just my opinion at the end of the day. Why would I want to offer an opinion that would hurt someone’s feelings? How would that help that person? How would it help me? If it’s just that person’s nature, wouldn’t it be kind of mean on me to pick on that quality? Do I like it when people notice my bad and worst qualities and bring it up in from of many other people? My P did that to me enough, so I don’t want to do it to others now that I know how it feels. Just my two cents. Also, who’s to say that the behavior is “bad” because who made me the judge? Maybe it is bad for me or would be bad for me, but it works for the other person and how they live their life. Other people might respond well to it and it might work for THEIR relationsihp. And if someone IS being controlled, that’s not my business, but is there’s.
I’m still going to take another little break from the board because I don’t think I’m ready and my skin isn’t thick enough yet. But, I’m working on it, so I’ll be back. Maybe those who are leaving “for good” might consider this approach. Then again, they might not because I am me and they are they and that is a good thing, at the end of the day. Peace, all.
P.S. I still have not read the comments above that were directed at me because I’m not up to it right now. I will when I return to the board when I can “take it”. I care about you all and appreciate this community though. I can tell you that. Please, everyone take care of yourselves. I will do the same. See you soon.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:43pm
witsend says:
jillsmith,
It was good to hear from you (I read your post on another thread) and to hear that you have been doing so much better!
That is WONDERFUL news…..When I read that you kind of just had this “enlightenment” one day, I had to chuckle.
When I go through something like this I relate it to being (for myself)…..That I am just TIRED of being sick and tired.
I wake up every day and just feel so down and depressed. (sick & tired) AND then after awile I just can’t take it anymore.
And this is my AH-HA moment.
Good for you
…I have always felt that the really “hard” stuff we do alone. We can have a support system (thank God) or friends that pick us up when we fall…..But the hard emotional stuff that we deal with, we have to be ready to take it on.
Please don’t feel that you need to go away. Just so happens that alot of us are going through some stuff right now and that is of course why we are all here….To go through our “stuff”. Own our feelings and heal.
xxx
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:44pm
persephone7 says:
Skylar:
You and I both need to get over ourselves…this isn’t at this point about
either of us. I did/do/always will accept that apology of yours and appreciate it, I was only trying to explain to JillSmith and I was hurt at the time that no one seemed worried about my feelings being hurt (before and after your apology). So that was probably childish, I’m human, you’re human, end of story. I’m glad you have come back, let’s just go back to a clean slate.
Jillsmith – if you got caught in the crossfire and it sounds like you did -
I’m sorry for that. Nothing I said was meant to hurt you personally -
this is an example of how miscommunication can escalate and we’re
doing what the sociopaths do, noogle every last nuance till it’s absolutely
absurd and we feel crazy!
Glad you responded to everyone, Erin. I’m going back to maintaining
my own equilibrium for myself, thought I was doing pretty good.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:56pm
kim frederick says:
Hey everybody. I’m not going anywhere. I got my pantys out of my a– crack. I just needed 24 hours. Thanks to all who thought of me.
Jill Smith, I hope you stick around. You have so much to offer. And you, too Persephone. Each and everyoneofus adds something important.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:57pm
amber says:
Well, apparently I’m missed quite a bit the last couple days. I would just like to say that I have been helped tremendously by each and every one of your stories. I hope that everyone sticks around and learns from this experience too. That’s what it’s all about…learning and applying it to life to better ourselves. We’re all here for our own personal reasons. And in the words of Rodney Kind…”Can’t we all just get along?” I love all of you for your continued love, support and wisdom. Hope you all have a great day.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear skylar,
To answer your questions, if you will go to the last post of mine on the other thread…I said I did not think you or any one else had abused anyone. I do not think you abused anyone. I don’t believe you did and I said I didn’t believe you did.
As for Jill apologizing to me, if you will read my response to her you will see that I told her that apologizing to me was not appropriate. I told her and anyone else who wanted to read that I was not a monitor and it is not my blog, Donna owns it. I have opinions, and everyone else here has opinions and everyones opinions are theirs. Mine is mine.
I dont’ want to get into an argument with or about you, Skylar. I said I hoped you came back, I also said that I had no problem with you being angry (whether you were “right or wrong” had no bearing on your feelings.) I also said I did not feel guilty about you leaving or accept any blame for your choice. You are a free agent, Skylar…an adult free to make your own decisions based on your opinion of truth and fact.
I said and I restate, I think we should move on to something else as the arguments and discussion are upsetting to others and we all need to focus on our own healing and put this to rest.
PEACE.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:32pm
shabbychic says:
I find it IRONIC that Rosa would point her finger at skylar and call her abusive, but she won’t point her finger at her SIL who is abusing a child, oh no, Rosa is smarter than the sociopath, so that’s ok. This situation has bothered me for a long time and I should have said something earlier, I didn’t want to ruffle any feathers, so I just stepped out of my comfort zone this moment for the child.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:22pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Just a suggestion.
“I am triggered” is a wonderful thing to say.
“I am triggered by something you did or said” is more specific.
“I am triggered by something you did or said, because this kind of thing reminds me of X, or because I really need things to be a certain way to be comfortable” is even better.
To the extent we can clearly take responsibility for our own feelings, we are more likely to be able to express ourselves without triggering other people. These are my feelings. They reflect my reactions to something that is going on. I have this reaction because I have certain needs or issues. Yes, you may have triggered it, but it’s really about me.
It is still no guarantee that we’re not going to trigger someone. There may be people here who just cannot bear my being triggered, because it reminds them of a dangerous situation in their own past, or because they need to have everyone be happy to feel safe.
That’s just a risk of interacting. Sometimes we’re going to trigger other people, no matter how good we are at communicating or how sensitive we are to known triggers with another person.
As an example (I hope this doesn’t bother you, Skylar), Skylar has reported that she was triggered by a lot of people asking her questions or offering her advice about her choices in what we interpreted as an NC issue. She felt like she wasn’t being heard, and it linked up to previous feelings of not being heard. And she reacted with anger and boundary building.
This is information about Skylar, given to us by Skylar (thank you , Skylar for being so clear), so now we know what happened.
If this triggers us, it’s about us, not Skylar.
As I keep repeating, in this environment we have a lot of people dealing with PSTD issues, which means that we’re hyper-vulnerable to being triggered. Domino effects can and do start, and we get into these very confusing mishmashes.
If we can say “I got triggered” about something, we can relate to each other without having to get into blaming. “Hey, I got triggered too. What’s that about?” This kind of thinking and talking is really good for us. It keeps the focus on us and our processes, rather than giving a lot of energy to our perceived perpetrators.
Everything, and I mean everything, that happens in our lives is fodder for getting well, if we’re on that path. We can use our experiences to perpetrate our pain, or we can use them to figure out its real causes and resolve them. The difference is what we focus on, ourselves and our feelings, or what other people are doing that trigger them.
I vote for talking about myself. My own reactions. Owning them, and trying to figure out what inside of me is getting triggered.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:27pm
heavenbound says:
I don’t want anyone to be hurt and upset. I don’t want anyone to be hurt and upset by my post either, but I want to show you guys what I saw…I hope it helps every one to start healing from these last couple of days!
(from “regrets, we all have them”)
Skylar says:
LIG,
Thank you so much for posting that.
That young woman is amazing. Her words and facial expressions were powerful.
I think youth has a certain wisdom and resiliency that we (speaking for myself) lose if we are under the spell of the P for too many years into adulthood.
In a way, she is lucky that he hit her early enough into the relationshit and that it was exposed in the media. It provided her with the feedback she needed to get out.
I wish my P had hit me, just once. Without that physical beating, I was clueless.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:51pm
.
(my words)
NOW PAY ATTENTION, TRY IT FROM ERINS POINT OF VIEW AND TRY IT FROM SKYLARS POINT OF VIEW
.
ErinBrock says:
Skylar:
The S started the physical abuse almost right off the bat with me……it sure didn’t stop anything…..as I grew older I hated the abuse, buy I thought I loved the man….If he could ONLY see how he hurts me…..
He used to tell me, early on….If a woman acts like a man, she deserves to be treated like one…….this was his justicication.
With me…..the physical came to a transition….it stopped….but the emotional and cruelty upped substantially. I remember him specifically saying to me……I WILL NEVER HIT YOU AGAIN……and he didn’t…..for years…..
With our first child, he pushed me down the stairs, he was angry I was going thru with the pregnancy…..he threatened to leave me….I cried and begged….I was terrified of being a single mother….
Then he started getting his physical out on our first child……in disguise of being a strict parent……spankings…..but they became more and more….and then several times a day…..always a lash out……he would get mad at me, saying i was coddeling the child…I needed to spank him more…..
My view on spanking was a last resort…..not a release of my uncontrollable emotions on the child for control.
He would leave hand prints on the child……I begged do NOT do this….I lived in fear of CPS……someone reporting it……but it wasn’t enough fear to get out…..I kept hoping it would change, I could protect us all…….
The physical I hated….the emotional I hated…..It was all a mind FUCK……and it all hurt! My family knew it, tried to help…..I went back….It was exposed….I made classic excuses…..
I don’t believe one can “monday morning quarterback’ and think you can gain insight from afar and relive our pasts and decisions…..
I was hit….in the beginning…..I sayed for 28 years!!!
Go figure!
The ONLY reason this woman CHOSE to leave was she had the strength. She became enlightened and made a CHOICE.
She wasn’t willing to lie to herself about it…..regardless of what her fans said and her family and other celebs…..she very easliy (like in the beginning) could have made excuses and defended and taken responsiblity for HIS actions…….
SHE DID NOT!!!!
She is awesome!!!!!! She has stepped away and defelected any ownership of HIS ACTIONS…….
I, on the other hand…accepted ownership of what he did….and why I deserved it and buried in deep and held the ’secret’.
skylar….I’m sorry, but……
I find this statement disturbing, as if this would have changed anything…….
“I wish my P had hit me, just once. Without that physical beating, I was clueless. ”
Change the abuse avenue. Currently you are fully aware, he tried to poison you and you fear him for lot’s of reasons…..
AND STILL, YOU REMAIN IN TOUCH, thinking you can control your destiny this way.
In a sense, you give the same excuses a battered woman does to others why you remain in touch…..
Your not married.
You don’t share assets
You don’t have kids
You are not reliant on him financially
You are not living together…..
SO WHY?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 3:41pm
.
(My words again)
At this point I believe a couple of people jump on the nc topic.
.
.
skylar says:
EB, if he had hit me, I would have left. I remember how many times I thought it over 25 years: “please hit me mo-fo, because that’ll be the end.” He knew the exact position of my boundaries and he never raised a hand.
But I did leave him for not paying back my $5000 in 1989 and I came back when he paid it. after that it was always a pity ploy about why we couldn’t seem to make ends meet and my money got funnelled more stealthily. At the end, my first wake up was when I realized he was conning me about homeland security in order to take the business out of my name. Again, money raised a red flag while emotional abuse flew under the radar. My p-parents DID teach me the value of money because it’s the only thing THEY value.
But I need to get to the heart of the matter here.
HE HAS NO CONTROL OVER MY EMOTIONS ANYMORE. I FEEL NOTHING FOR HIM. I’VE REMOVED THE BUTTONS. ANY CONTACT I HAVE WITH HIM SERVES TO FRUSTRATE HIM AND IT REMOVES THE MEMORY OF REWARD-FEEDBACK CYCLE. all my responses are so unpredictable that he keeps asking me if I’m: a witch, bi-polar, multiple personality, under the control of a guru…etc…
HE CANNOT HURT ME EMOTIONALLY and having NC will not change whether he can hurt me physically because he has never touched me. He is dangerous because his methods are slander, sabotage and poison. He will work in stealth he has never and will never hit me. EVERYTHING HE DOES IS STEALTH.
The only ones who can hurt me emotionally are YOU guys here at LF. AND YOU HAVE. AND I’M DONE. YOU CLAIM TO BE SO EMPATHIC BUT I’VE PUT UP WITH IT LONG ENOUGH, I’VE BEEN GOOD-NATURED AND I’VE LAUGHED AT YOUR SKILLET BOINKING.
I ASKED YOU TO STOP JUDGING ME AND MY METHODS FOR SURVIVAL. THEY ARE MY METHODS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE WITH THIS PARTICULAR SOCIOPATH.
AND I’M DONE. I’M GOING NC. WITH YOU.
Sorry to say good bye to those of you who weren’t guilty of this crap, but you all know the rules which Kathleen laid out:
#3 Reduce your pain tolerance to zero in voluntary interpersonal relationshits.
I can’t go NC with LF boinkers without losing the whole gang. bye.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 5:40pm
.
(my words)
Skylar stated an opinion. Erin was triggered (I think she says with “I find this statement to be disturbing”), understandable as it may be.
Now skylar comes back clearly triggered. This is understandable too.
I will apologize because I can see that you are or were upset and hurt.
I’m sorry Erin, that you stayed in an abusive situation and suffered soooo much pain. I think we all did in one way or another. I’m happy you came out strong!
I’m sorry Skylar, that you can’t find a lot of understanding about non-nc. (sometimes an understanding person is all we need) I will respect the fact that you don’t want to be confronted about this topic. Understandable. I’m sorry your situation may call for some contact in order to ensure a safer future. I don’t know because I’m not there but I hear you loud and clear!
I love you ALL
Love, huge hugs, and prayers, heavenbound
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 4:44pm
skylar says:
Heavenbound, thanks for doing that: being rational, logical and going thru the trouble of re-reading the posts.
I did say that if the P had hit me, I would have left and not come back. You see, I had never heard of emotional abuse. I didn’t know it existed. No one talks about it. My parents got me used to it, so suffering that way seems normal. But battered women, that’s different. You see them on the news and you say – “fuck that shit, if I ever got hit, that would be it.” Society RECOGNIZES that and it gets discussed so my xP is smart enough to know that ain’t gonna fly. So he’s subtle.
Same with the money. I’m on the alert for people taking my money. But I wasn’t familiar with the pity ploy – who is? Only con-artists. My upbringing is to give to the needy and he was always needy, but God seemed to give me money without any effort on my part, so I liked sharing. Even when I was 16 working for minimum wage, I actually adopted a child thru the Save the Children organization. I felt so bad when I realized that I couldn’t send money anymore. His name was Isaiah.
Then there’s the poisoning. I didn’t know he was doing it until after I left. So now, everyone asks, why go back? I’m not going back. I’m trying to keep in touch so I know what’s going on. It’s hard because he doesn’t want to talk to me.
I have figured out one very important thing about these mythologicals: it’s all about the storys they tell. They believe their storys, they are completely story driven. I want to influence his story and know his story but I can’t if there is No contact. Once you know the story, you know what they are planning. I’m not affected by the story, but he is. I can tell when he’s lying and trying to push buttons (all the time).
For example, Oxy’s son. He is in prison but he tells himself that he has won. That’s a story that drives his will to live and continue his path. Well, I’ve been reading some work by a guy named Cleckley, (the mask of sanity) which posits that the P is in a state of regression – a slow suicide in the form of self-destructive behaviors which lead slowly toward his withdrawal from society (prison, hermit, mountainman (campfire of my love anyone?) or whatever) just as when he was a child, and then finally toward death. It’s like trying to live life backward – reminds me of benjamin button.
Anyway, I think my xP is pretty far gone. He isn’t out looking for another woman. He has given up on attracting people with charm, I can tell by the way he looks, and smells (ack!). He is in a really bad state but his mind is very strong willed. If the story gets really bad and the self-pity gets too much, it could be bad for lots of people. But don’t think he’s just laying around moping. He doesn’t do that. In this state he plots and plans his grandest schemes. Think about it, how many of you can say you stole a helicopter and fly it without a license? He’s not a womanizer with kids to support – he doesn’t get tied down. He lives underground and flys under the radar.
I went to the FBI, 3 times. I’ve tried 3 lawyers. They all think I’m nuts or a scorned woman. That couldn’t be further from the truth.
Everyone else is living life forward toward more integration with society and the P is going backwards towards disintegration, that’s why he needs a story to help it make sense. Otherwise it just seems like he keeps doing stupid things that don’t make sense to anyone, not even him.
If I knew what the story was, I would feel a lot safer.
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cass.....psycho.htm
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:28pm
Stargazer says:
Good Lord! I’m not around for a few days and look at all the drama I missed!
Guys, I did not feel the least bit abused by Skylar’s comment. I could see she was irritated, and I was not offended by that. Sometimes friends get irritated with each other. I’m okay with it. People need to do what they feel is best for them, regardless of what others tell them. When I went NC, it was my own choice. No one had to tell me. If I had needed a forum full of people to convince me, I would not have been ready. I even remember one time (and only this one time) encouraging an LF member to have one final communication with her sociopath. She did, and it gave her the closure she needed to completely move on with her life.
I do appreciate Rosa and those who were concerned about my feelings. That actually means a lot to me.
And no, I have not left the forum! I’ve just had a lot going on in my life and have not felt like being on the internet so much. I am getting bashed a lot over on my reptile forum because I’ve taken a very hard stance on responsibility in snake keeping. I’ve peed a lot of people off over there, and they’re comparing me to PETA, whom they apparently hate. So, nothing personal. I just need breaks to do other things. I have lurked here a little but haven’t had much to share until tonight.
Sorry, I didn’t read all the posts yets, so I hope I didn’t miss anything else I could have commented on.
Love,
Star
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
henry says:
OH MY~!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:29pm
Stargazer says:
Sky! I’m so glad you are still around. Sorry I talked about you in the third person–oops. I think I kind of understand what you are doing. It makes you feel safer to know what your ex is up to. If you keep him under your thumb, you don’t have to worry about a surprise attack. Do I have this right? And there may be an element of having some power over him, too. I think you are still trying to understand his mind to make it all real to you. I understand your motives, and I can only hope that one day you will get genuinely bored with him and lose interest in the game.
At my Buddhist retreats years ago, the teachers used to tell the story of the monkey with his hand in the cookie jar. He wanted the cookie but when he was grasping it, his hand wouldn’t fit through the opening of the jar. So he could never get his hand out. The only way to get his hand out was to drop the cookie. But he refused. So there he sat, for the rest of his life (!) with his hand grasped around the cookie in the cookie jar. I think you see where I’m going here…..
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:42pm
skylar says:
*sigh*
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:39pm
heavenbound says:
Skylar,
You are very welcome, I’m glad I could help,,,but I have to say THANK YOU! I don’t get told I’m rational or logical hardly EVER! And thank you for sharing more of your story with me it’s nice to be talked to like I have a mind and a heart! You know how it is when your with a p for so long.
Your are in my prayers!
Love, hugs, and prayers, heavenbound
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:51pm
Stargazer says:
Well, I didn’t see your post where you were leaving, sky. I probably would have thought twice about my last post. But I honestly don’t know how else to support you right now. I’m sorry.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:53pm
skylar says:
that’s ok Star, I would probably just break the cookie into crumbs and pull it out a little at a time.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:50am
Stargazer says:
LOL, sky, at least you are thinking outside the box.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:56am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Hi, Sky.
One half of my family is Irish Catholic. My mother’s side was Lutheran, which have their own quirks. (Garrison Keillor is very funny talking about the Lutherans) But at least they more or less kept their opinions to themselves. The Catholic bunch, on the other hand, were relentless.
There wasn’t any conversational topic that couldn’t somehow be linked to some saint’s cautionary example, or what Father So-and-So said about the dangers of whatever I happened to be doing, saying, reading or planning. Because I dropped out to start attending a nearby Unitarian Church when I was 13, that was their cue to turn up the heat. I got cards in the mail from my great-aunt, the nun, reminding me about the holy days of obligation, and rosaries and souvenirs blessed by the Pope on gift-giving occasions. But mostly it was the constant gentle and not-so-gentle reminders of that I was really a good Catholic girl.
The odd thing about it was that I was probably just taking a little adolescent vacation from the church after all those years of Catholic school and the rigors of memorizing endless prayers and dogma so I could give the bishop the right answer to his one question at confirmation. (When to the whole family’s horror I chose Teresa as my middle name. Didn’t I realize it was Eye-talian?)
But all that relentless commentary and nudging and opinionating just hardened my resolve to make my own choices. And worse, it made me drift away from them, because I was tired of feeling pressured.
I’m sure they thought they were doing the right thing to preserve my immortal soul. But I felt like there was a sanctimonious, self-congratulatory and almost zenophobic quality to their endless importuning. In their little world, it was simply impossible for them to believe that a reasonable person could make a difference choice.
Later, I realized that a variety of factors had conspired to make me more adventurous than them. I read more than they did. I wandered a lot farther afield than them. And it cost me, in the sense that I wasn’t even as confident with my own choices as they were, or as familiar with everything within my reach. I didn’t have all those strong opinions they did, or the idea that my ideas were better for other people than anything those other people might decide for themselves.
It took me years to understand how charming and caring they were, long after they were gone. At the time I knew them, I was young and vulnerable and trying on my baby independence of mind, and their urging voices seemed too much like the nuns who controlled their classrooms with wooden rulers and threats of purgatory. But in retrospect, I realize that they weren’t talking about me as much as they were just expressing who they were.
Sky, even my world-class equanimity (that’s a little joke) gets taxed by some of the bombast that get thrown around here. I have to practically sit on my hands to keep from writing “I want it on the record that I totally disagree.” I get urges to protect new people from imagining that we’re all subscribers to these (to me) unhelpful ideas. But then I ask myself, who appointed me sheriff of Fraud?
People are where they are. And there are undoubtedly other people there, talking the language of that place. Some of them there to learn and move on. Some of them having settled down for life. We not only speak and act from where we are, we also hear and learn.
This is what I tell myself. I try to be empathic. If I can’t do that, I try to get some private humor out of the nuttiness. If I can’t do that, I just take a break until I get over my arrogance. We’re all in recovery. The whole damned world is in recovery, whether it knows it or not. And I am just one piece of pickled pineapple in this great fruitcake.
Affectionately –
Kathy
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:11am
Wini says:
I’m to the point that the anti-socials in our society only know the basics pertaining to wisdom taught by the churches in our society. They never delved deeper into the the reasonings behind any given righteous or unrighteous action taught via learning His wisdom. They learned the basics to His wisdom … because after all, remember who ran Hollywood in our country from the time of vaudeville to talking movies? The Jewish folks ran the studios, were the screen writers etc. and gave our world the lessons in His wisdom via TV, Movies, Books, Music, all the arts etc without us ever knowing it. The Torah is the old testament in the Christian Bible. Without being you knowing it, the Jews who governed Hollywood taught all of society His righteous ethics learned from His wisdom. With that said, any fool learned the basics of ethical standards … but, the FOOLS refused or weren’t guided by their parental guardians to continue their education into learning the depth of His wisdom (FREE Will remember! We are all given free will). The FOOLS (aka anti-socials in our society) refused or didn’t have the opportunity presented to them to read, comprehend and apply God’s wisdom to their every day life. NOT reading or comprehending and applying His wisdom to their lives is the reason they are spiritually stunted, or spiritually retarded as the health professionals understand the medicinal jargon of the world. The anti-socials are the FOOLS written in the Torah, Koran, Bible or any of the other books of His wisdom. The reason they don’t follow through with anything they say the will do, is because they don’t know how to follow through. They never learned nor stretched themselves spiritually when applying His wisdom to their everyday life. Period. Since they never read the details to His wisdom, they never applied His wisdom to their lives, therefore they never stretched spiritually. They are the infants of society having temper tantrums every minute of every day. What we call Chaos. I think it is all our responsibility who know His wisdom and live our lives via His wisdom to ensure the FOOLS of society have the tools to Learn, comprehend, and apply His wisdom to their lives too. Enough of just assuming these folks are mature adults and it’s up to them to learn Wisdom on their own. It’s like asking a junkie or an alcoholic to stop their addiction. They are blinded and we need to bring them to the correct water fountain of spiritual life instead of spiritual death.
The chaos flurishing in society today is due to non-believers of His wisdom persuading believers years ago to erase God out of society, hiding behind our laws that it was unconstitutional against non-believers rights. What? This is the same thing as a child telling rational adults that if he drinks that poison from that bottle, it won’t kill him. It will kills millions. Hences, fools that never learned His wisdom are killing us. ALL of us.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:54am
tami says:
Hello all,
I haven’t posted in a while felt I HAD to respond to this particular article. I’m beginning to believe that my S was right up there with the best of ‘em.
Yes, his optimism had me doubting my own judgement. When he wouldn’t find a job…he’d tell me all that mattered was that we had each other! And, once when I found the phone numbers of two other women and backed him a corner. He told me that he got them just to see if he could and that he never called them! Then, he started crying and begging me not to divorce him. I later learned that he nearly left me for one of these women! LOL! Mine has a way of actually “appearing” to be honest when he had no other way out.
For instance, his live-in girlfriend (now his wife) found out that he was cheating on her with multiple women BEFORE they got married…most were women of ill repute but one was married and had a very successful career. At first he lied and said that he didn’t know what she was talking about. Finally, after she pushed by telling him that she had proof, he admitted that he cheated on her because she wouldn’t commit to marry him. He told her that the more successful woman was his back up because he feared that she was going to leave him or not marry him. He promised to break things off with this particular woman and did just that. He then went back and told his girlfriend that this woman took it really badly, told the girlfriend outright lies about the woman and made her out to be nothing more than a simple whore who slept around on her husband all the time. Very untrue, this woman feel victim to his charm during a rough period in her marriage. He declared great love for this woman and kept telling her that he was trying to rid himself of the bitch he lived with. He did an awesome job of pitting the two women against each other in order to take the focus off him or to be held accountable for his actions! However, the married woman tracked me down and I informed her what he was capable of. She researched the behavior of sociopaths and recognized from her own experience that he indeed was a sociopath.
In the process of his cheating, he contracted two incureable STDs and infected the live-in girlfriend. The married woman was lucky enough not to have became infected…mostly due to practicing safe sex. He swore to the live-girlfriend that he had finally learned his lesson and that he NEVER imagined that he would get an STD. Nevermind that he has been having sexual encounters with multiple partners all of his adult life. The live-in packed her things and attempted to leave him. He threatened to kill himself, threaten her and swore he’d change if she’d just stick by him. Of course, the live-in girlfriend stayed and rushed right into marrying him so that he would feel secure and that he didn’t need to have a backup because he was “terrified of being alone”. He now tells his new wife that he feels secure with her because she has stuck by him through all the things he has done when no other woman would have ever done that.
However, he still doesn’t work…she fully supports them and pays his child support. He throws fits of jealousy on her which she seems to mistake as acts of love for her. He then apologizes and tells her how proud he is to have a wife as beautiful as she is. He plays in a band which his new wife has grown tired of being a part of. She sits at his gigs amongst women that she knows he’s had sex with in the past and the bars he plays in are very much low end businesses with crowds to match. She’s also exhausted because sometimes she has to work the next day after being out half the night while he beats on a drum. She would like for them to have more time to spend her friends. He tells her that her friends are “uppity” and he doesn’t feel comfortable around them. He also tells her that his music has caused problems in all his former relationships and that he always ridded himself of the women who did not support his music because he loves to play. BUT he’ll give it up for HER if she really wants him, too. She says she CAN’T ask him to give up something that he loves so much even though he has assured her that SHE means MUCH more to her than his music.
Okay, people…you tell me…does this sound like a “changed” man to you? Or is he every bit as manipulating as I think he is?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:05am
Wini says:
Tami, they are all control freaks hovering over everyone. Not just us. Anyone that lives and breathes and happens to come into their space gets the same treatment. They can’t just trust, have faith in others. They are fracture individuals who have never grown up. Everything they say to people is just lip service. WE all have a 50/50 chance at any given time if they follow up on anything they say they will do. That’s because they have no long term attention span. If they happen to get something done, it’s because they had available time at the moment to do it. If not, that responsibility just falls through the cracks. There is no substance in them to care or not care. Actually, they only follow through with commitments when they are pulling someone into their crazy web of deceit. It’s amazing how their world is never simple. They must be exhausted all the time, manipulating all the strings they pull into their lives. I wonder if and when they get caught and incarcerated is the only time they can relax. It must be nice for them to live a few years not being the puppet masters of the world.
I couldn’t imagine having multiple lives going at the same time. Being involved in one focus on one relationship or going into one job doing the work I get a paycheck for is enough for me. I can’t imagine having 7 or 8 relationships with men going … or smiling to my bosses/co-workers faces and scheme and lie behind the scenes to yank their chains to get my way. Way too exhausting of a life style if you ask me. I am what I am, up front. What you see is what you get with me. I don’t say or do anything and behind the scenes do something else. I don’t have time for this nonsense. But, then again … I’m a whole person, not splintered to my very core.
My advise for you, once you uncover one lie … be careful and on guard for all their lies that you haven’t uncovered yet. They just slipped up by mistake or wanted you to see their mask slip. Fool you once, shame on them, fool you twice, shame on you. There is a reason for this saying. Be on guard and never let them convince that your eyes are lying to you. You saw what you saw and your very self has to rely on who and what you know as a mature, responsible adult. In other words, you will always be your best friend. Take back your power and know that you are dealing with someone on the level of a 5 year old mentally and spiritually. Period.
Peace to your heart and soul as you heal and know that their are so many millions of these splintered personalities in our world today.
Be thankful that this information about the true fractured selves is coming into the light and not kept in the dark any more.
Just know … you are not alone, we are all in this together and we will SURVIVE this devastation.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:42am
scaredCFmama says:
I can also agree with this article. I am in the middle of a huge custody battle now with my exbf, father of my youngest child, and he is classic…
He has always told me how he can outsmart doctors, lawyers, psychologists… he didn’t need counseling because he is smarter than them… I didn’t realize he was a sociopath at that time, and I thought that statement was so WEIRD.
Now – he has taken my son basically hostage on April 24, and we don’t have court until Jan 26. He continues to display outrageous behavior, do things that are blatantly obvious attempts to undermine me as my son’s mother – and I just don’t think he cares. I’m not sure that he even realizes how it will look in court – or he is so overly confident that he just thinks he can do whatever he wants, and get away with it.
As with the example in the above article, he cheated on me throughout our relationship. He ALWAYS had justification for it. Stupid, illogical justification… and when I finally left him, in his mind – he was the victim. In fact, he calls me “homewrecker”
The more I dis-engage with him, the more I see it so clearly, but for a very long time, I thought it must be ME that was crazy.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:44am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tami,
He is not only ever bit as manipulating, he is also every bit as selfish and fundamentally uncaring.
One of the things about sociopaths is their ability to make themselves plausible. The can turn the most telling (disgusting) things in their histories around to stories about their triumphs over other people’s selfishness and manipulation. If you hear someone who sounds like he’s constantly doing PR for himself, that should be a red flag.
Sociopaths project charisma. That is, they dazzle people with charm that isn’t actually real. And one of the ways to get out of the spell of all that charisma is to evaluate them by their actions, not their words. And not only their actions, but by the messes they leave behind.
This guy sounds like not only has a history of leaving messes, but is still doing it.
But, Tami, why are you asking? Are you still trying to decide what you were dealing with?
Kathy
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:49am
tami says:
Oh goodness no! I KNOW what he is and am now remarried to a normal man and have a wonderful life. It’s just that his new wife and I communicate. I knew her before he left me for her…bless her heart! LOL!
I’ve just spent three years of my life off and on trying to get her to understand that he IS a sociopath when she tells or asked me about some of his odd behavior. I guess I was just looking for validation (again) that this man IS indeed a sociopath. Even the new wife says that she has consulted a professional and conducted her own research regarding sociopaths. She took great comfort when she read that their behavior improves with age! She just doesn’t GET IT and for the life of me, I can’t understand why she tortures herself by continuing to stay in the marriage! It seems that everyone else get it EXCEPT her. She even popped up on my IM a couple of days ago and asked me if I’d ever noticed that he didn’t act right around little girls!?! I told her yes, and reminded her that he had been accused twice of inappropiate behavior by children who had absolutely NO connection to each other! She seemed very concerned about this. Then, she pops back and tells me what a great weekend they had together and how she believes that he really is “trying to change.” Not once, has this gal ever said “he’s changed”…always using terms like “trying” or that she’s “hoping” that he’ll change. It’s been 3 years that she’s been waiting to KNOW that he has changed. At least, I WAS afforded the ignorance of NOT knowing what he was doing during the years that I was married to him although I had some red flags that looking back…I should have NEVER allowed him to talk his way around. But, I NEVER caught him at anything! It was only after he left, that people started coming forward to tell me the kind of person that he had been all of his life and the things that he had done behind my back. I was flabbergasted! And, he admitted that he had done all these things in his past to her but says that he’s changed for her. This gal KNEW about his history and that he had cheated on her as well as giving her two STDs BEFORE she married him. All she can say for herself is that she loves him and has promised him that she will stand by him no matter what. Yet, I can tell from her complaints that she is miserable. She’s young, she’s pretty…and deserves SO much more! He’s 43 years old…he aint gonna change!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:06am
CAmom says:
Hi Wini…I believe “fools” are quite different from psychopaths and sociopaths. My ex is a sociopath/pyschopath and also a fairly observant Jew raised in an observant home. We spent many Friday evenings attending Temple (shul).
I think I understand what you’re trying to say, and that you are approaching the concept of anti-socials as people who have not delved deeply into religious study–sometimes only knowing what is called the “Sunday School” version of their religion.
As far as my ex is concerned, he most definately *did* explore Judaism…and taught, among other subjects, Comparative Religion at the local university. He claimed to have had direct experiences with what he referred to as “the Divine, the One God.” He claimed he was a mystic.
His doctoral dissertation was on transpersonal psychology. He was and still is considered by some to be an extremely spiritual person. While we were married he held a weekly group session on an esoteric form of Sufism. He also held meetings on the Kabbalah. And he had been a brother in a Christian Order.
All of this to say his exposure and interest in religion of all kinds was longstanding and on-going. But, again, it was a persona. What he actually got out of it was a great deal of adulation and groupies, some of whom he had affairs with. Of both sexes.
But it was false, Wini. A part of his persona–he presents as a deeply spiritual man, and an extremely well-read one…he attended retreats, he led retreats…he has a Master’s Degree in the Psychology of Religion and a PhD in Clinical Psychology–both from Ivy League schools.
I realize referring to a person as evil, or even thinking a person might be evil, can be quite difficult. Exorcisms are mostly a relic of the Middle Ages….Christianity is reluctant to label someone as evil. The HE of whom you speak is, I assume, Jesus. Christianity teaches forgiveness and believes in redemption.
But there are some persons who are not capable of asking for forgiveness because, in my opinion (just my opinion!) they have no capacity to feel sorry or regret anything. They are devoid of a conscience.
I learned a lot from Scott Peck’s book, The People of The Lie.
Dr. Peck gives examples of patients he believed were evil, and addresses his own conflict with the concept of evil.
I *wish* everyone had the capacity to find a Truth which would somehow “fix” them–whether through Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, etc etc…the problem is, in my opinion and experience, that while people can deeply study and explore and profess to understand and *feel* a Higher Being,
nonetheless they are incapable of actually feeling anything remotely spiritual.
There have no interior life. They are incapable of any real reflection. The place where empathy should reside is empty, in fact, I tend to think, for them, that place does not exist at all…
A fool can be educated. A fool can understand and feel. A sociopath can not, although they can often fake it quite well.
I hope you are not offended by anything I’ve written. This is simply my opinion/conclusion/experience. It has taken me a long time to realize evil does in fact exist in individuals. As for *why* it exists, I don’t know.
Shalom~~
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:32am
almost_free says:
Great article, Steve! My ex always told me how I see the glass as “half-empty” and should really be more like him – optimistic. I laughed out loud at the conversation you quoted in the article – it’s like I have had nearly identical conversations with the ex. For years, I knew something wasn’t quite right, but he was always sooooo incredibly good with turning things around mid-conversation, I was left feeling like “oh, maybe I’m just being overly sensitive again or exaggerating”.
And when he said to me, so condescendingly, “I got HIV tested for you”, as though I should be thankful, there was an instant where I actually felt grateful!! How do they do that?? Now that I am away from him and his craziness and he’s on his third marriage, I actually find it fascinating to watch from a distance how he lives his life. There is absolutely nothing real or authentic about the man, yet he can get people to believe his lies, effortlessly. It’s amazing, and if I could write a book to capture the essence of how he does this, I know it would be a best-seller. The only problem is, whenever I sit down to write, I find it’s difficult to take the reality and put it on paper. It still confuses me!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:08am
usedandabused says:
Great article, Steve! Mine did exactly that when me and “Jane” busted him. He said he could prove that he really was sick over out last weekend together because he wanted drugs! He said why would he want drugs if he didn’t want to sleep with me.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:26am
notagain says:
Irrational optimism and twisted logic really caught me here. It was the one thing he used on me on a daily basis that got me feeling twisted myself, even though I know there was no reason for it most of the time.
Here is an example of what a cople things he used twisted logic on, and irrational optimism.
I got pregnant.
He started drinking everynight, not coming home until 12 or 1 in the morning.
So I got upset and told him I wasent going to put up with this crap. He used this as the excuse as why he had a rightto go out and drink. “Well, I dont want to come home if you are going to bitch at me.” It got totally twisted around as being my fault that he was out drinking.
So here i was pregnant, and I think his logic was (well I cant leave him now, so he can do anything he wants to.) If I bitch at him about drinking, he will just stay out all night.
Another one.
I was dumb enough to lend him 1500.00 to start a business. He was supposed to pay me back a little each week, and we had agreed to a contract before hand. VERBALLY at first. Then I wrote out the real paper contract, and he rolled his eyes. “I’m not going to sign that. That is unfair, and not even logical,” he says. He wrote out a quick sloppy contract, giving himself over a year to pay it pay, and it had so many flaws in it that it wouldn’t even stand in a court of law on my behalf.
After he got his business started, on my money, he again started drinking, more, and more and more. I got fed up, and broke up with him. His thinking (She cant break up with me now. I owe her this money that she needs back. I’m a man, and need my man time out with the friends to drink beer. If she leaves I ‘ll just take the business with me.) HE DID. Did take the business with him, which in my contract, said if things didn’t work out, the business was mine until he paid me back to rightfully own it. But in his eyes, because he built this HOT DOG CART, it belonged to him, not me. I had given him some money to get started with the food too. When I broke up with him, he went to his druggy friends and had a party with all the food that was meant to make a little profit for my family, my kids to eat. But here he has all his drug buddies living it up.
i see now, that his life has been paved with nothing but good intentions, which were really nothing more, than “I can by myself some time, and look good in the process.” He has burned every bridge in his life. Cut his mother off, his kids, his family. He swears he is an excellent father….but never sees his kids. In fact when he stole the business, ne left the state with out even saying goodbye to his kids.
Now he writes me through e-mail, and tells me how he wanted to marry me. Ya, RIGHT!!!
Here are things that are becoming very clear to me now about his character.
1. He would get very upset, if youcalled him on his behavior, and use manipulation of how illogical and irrational that you were being, to make himself look good.
2. His actions and his words, never matched. If he did keep his words for a while, it was only long enough to build your trust back up, and to show you what a good guy he was.
3. Being a good guy, was seen as extremely important to him. My family hated him, and he blamed me for making them hate him. Which is a total lie. Supposedly I ruined his reputation. Not him.
4. He used very twisted logic, in simple conversations on a daily basis to make your own logic or opinion seem trivial. In his eyes, if you couldn’t see it, it didn’t exist. If you couldn’t prove it, it didn’t exist. And you were supposed to believe his ” irrational logic ” or you were basically not using your own “common sense.” I always protested his twisted logic, and was accused constantly of being defensive. Even if I only asked a question.
5. He surrounded himself with friends, buddies, that were way worse off then he in someways, like drugs or alcohol, and this he used to make himself loook better. He also admitted to using them as “entertainment.” Sadly, I saw no entertainment….but broken lives, living on the edge of playing with death. Many of his friends wound up in the hospitable due to the chemical use. He could spend 1000 dollars in one week providing his friends with these chemicals, and never pay a bill here at home.
6. I saw how nothing bothered him, that should have bothered him. He never got mad, seemed to have more control when i was upset. He only showed his rage a few times, and afterwords, in about 3 seconds, he would act as if nothing ever happened.
I had known that I was dealing with a potential alcoholic, which is bad enough. But, I finally came to the conclusion, that it wasent alcoholism that was the real problem with this man. I found out about his history, going back into his adolescence, of disrespect, rebellion, and outright contempt for his own mother, who had told me about how “you are not allowed to talk about his past.” that came into our relationship, where he told me not to talk about certain things…but I did…because they drove me nuts, trying to figure out the real context of the situation.
Things I have learned!!!!
if someone is making you feel confused, thats because they are trying to confuse you.
If you feel bad in a relationship, its because you are being treated badly.
If his words do not match his actions,he is trying to get you to have a picture of him in your head that is not real.
Friends are a picture of what is inside the person.
History is imperative to know.
If he hates his mother, there is something seriously wrong. Especially if you met her, and she seems very nice…she never beat him, but she had problems controlling his abusive behavior towards her when he was growing up.
Dont confuse pitty or guilt with love. You can’t save another human being. One thing he would use at the begining of our relationship, was admitting to his past wrongs, which made him look like he could change. When you didn’t admit enough to your wrongs, he would accuse you of being self-righteous.
If he is messing his own life up, and tries to put you in the same catagory…RUN!!!! He is the one messing your life up. Your just messing it up by staying with the P.
If his view of his reputation does not reflect in his own life…watch out. I have since taken that quote from the bible alot more seriously. “You will know them by their fruits.” Something like that.
If you feel like you are being controlled, because you are mending your life to revolve around his….watch out. I have learned now, that controll can begin as very subtle. Small demands….than more small demands….and until and before you know it, your own mind is full of their long list, of trivial demands and your everyday existance is trying to be that good loving person, who can just do ALL of these small things for him, if you really loved him.
Since he has been gone…only about two months, I have since gotten my friends back. Many guy friends…and just being friends with these people, good peopple, is helping me heal. Because I feel like my life is full after being with them. I have alot of musician friends because i play music too….I realized that a relationship should make life easier. Not the daily struggle of being pulled under, and trying to swim to get back to where you were before you met this person. If you let them, they can destroy you. That feeling of ever feeling fullfilled at the end of the day, was ABSENT! I felt empty everyday, like there was a vampire slowly sucking the life out of me. It was hard to even get out of bed.
But I have gone on enough….this post is great…it is so so true!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:28am
newstart12 says:
Hi nassaugirl
I don’t post that often, but read a lot of the comments. I was also following tami’s post, and you are so right, DON’T get in to a discussion.
After gaining strength from this site I asked my ex to leave in March. I then got the tears, the pity plays, the I will change, marry me, I want to grow old with you etc ect. but I was getting stronger and stronger so stuck it out. He then had a really bad bike crash (I even thought he might have done it on purpose!) and of course, I felt sorry.
Once you start talking again they are right back in there.
Tami’s comment about ‘no gas in the car’ really struck home. This man has not paid a bill or for food in five years. I think I got a meal on about three occasions, and I paid for the holidays, fuel, even his grandchildren’s presents. When his daughter visited, I paid for her also even though I found an email where she was saying he should find a rich old lady. She had £1000 off him (me) for her phone bill and never paid it back. When I found emails and he was getting calls from a woman in Holland, I contacted the woman and found out that she had asked him to leave and lent him £12,000, which she never got back. So many things the list really is too long, like many on here I suspect.
Now, like all of you, I am not a stupid woman. I have a degree, (not that it means you’re bright i know lol), have my own business, have been published, and even though from our first date when he said he’d been in the Royal Navy (true) but hinted that he was in special services, (bollocks I think) I kept taking him back, just like tami’s friend.
But – there is a point where something clicks and you are ready, and some of us come to it before others. I still haven’t gone NC but he is not back in my home even though I am getting the tears etc. The latest thing is he is going to kill himself and his mother and sisters are very worrid about him.
Over the years I have been told by him that I am crazy and should see someone, all the usual things. It was actually when the violence and abuse stopped and he got sneaky that he was really to be looked out for. One thing I don’t see mentioned here much but I’m sure it happens to others, is that he almost controlled me with sex.
I think tami you will have to support your friend until she gets that feeling, when she looks at him and she knows, that’s it. Then like nassaugirl said, just tell her, try not to get in to discussions. It’s not worth it, and she could end up like me, fighting him off all over again. By the way, he is 54 so so much for growing out of it. When he was in his 40’s he was taken to court for stalking, and he bugged the girl’s flat although they didn’t know that.
Oh – my favourite thing he comes out with is that I ‘drag the past around with me’ and that we should move on. Anyone else heard that one? lol.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:42am
sherry winter says:
When I first started reading this blog, I thought you had taken my story and printed it here. Then I realized, it wasn’t mine, but a common thread that runs through the lives of those who deal with sociopaths.
The sad thing is, there is a reason that the sociopath is optimistic. They are experts and finding, and taking advantage of, kind, forgiving, and GULLIBLE women. The kind that WANT to believe in someone… WANT to believe the best about someone, instead of the worse.
Two years I gave to my Sociopath, J.R. Two years, and all along I’d find little things that didn’t ring quite right. But instead of believing myself, I chose to believe in him. While I was having my nervous break down over the one girlfriend he had 3000 miles away in Florida, he watched me closely to make sure I didn’t catch onto the three other women he was sleeping with right under my nose, both in the club we belonged to and at our work place.
One of the most painful things about the experience that I still have to deal with is the fact that all the people who used to be my friends, are just like I USED to be… kind, gullible, and want to believe in GOOD not the bad in someone. Because of that trait, they believe HIM, and his lies. He has told them that we were just friends. and that we were not intimate at all. I had half of one closet in his house for MY CLOTHES, because I spent close to a third of my life and nights with him. Yet every one would rather believe that I imagined the abuse since after all I had a nervous break down, than to believe this person they have known for years is the lowest kind of scum the earth has ever known.
He knows that people will believe what they want. That’s why he likes to hang around jobs, and groups where people expect the best of others…. He doesn’t give it to them, but he knows if he doesn’t confess to his sins, they will forget, and believe the best of him. Because those around him refuse to believe me, or his ex-wife, they have created a breading ground where he can hunt for his next victim in peace. His “GIRLFRIEND” he was sleeping with while we were a couple, while he had a mistress/girlfriend in florida, and while he had at least three other woman at my work he was sleeping with on and off. All the people I used to call my friends, do not want to HEAR the truth. They want to believe that he cares for the ONE that they actually know about. They don’t want to believe that he is using her like he has used every other woman including his highschool sweet heart.
They want to believe it was Cori’s fault, or my fault, or the Florida woman’s fault. To think that the one person he is with now, is being victimized as they stand by and watch, is beyond their comprehension. And at work where he does much of his HUNTING, I have been threatened with being fired if I tell ANY ONE the truth of how dangerous he is. He caught the “gift that keeps on giving” from the Florida Girlfriend, by her own admittance, and yet when his ex-wife had to have her insides cut out because of the desease he in turn gave to her, he blamed HER for it… and swore he didn’t have herpies.
Even when he broke out with it just before we broke up, he swore he didn’t have any STD’s! After all, why would he feel guilty about giving women a disease that could potentially kill them, when he ruins life after life without blinking an eye.
all of this he does right under the noses of those who WANT to believe the best of him, and thus they actually add to his level of danger. I actually interviewed all of my friends at work before I got involved with him… all who said how loving and kind he was, and what a monster his ex was. Well, I guess we’d all turn into a little bit of a monster if we found out our husband’s had started chasing his mistress a week after our wedding! But kind people don’t want to hear it… Christians, Mason’s, those who spend their lives serving others do not want to HEAR that the person working along side them is there just for fresh meat to feed on. No, it’s easier to believe the lie.
And so, the innocent, and gullible are pulled into a world they didn’t really believe was real. The world where the one person you trust the most in the world, is the one person who is most likely to cause your death.
Sociopaths are optimists, because they know how to find people who WANT to believe their lies.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:45am
newstart12 says:
notagain.
So true, ‘don’t confuse pity or guilt with love.’
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:49am
notagain says:
NEWSTARTGIRL,
Yes, I heard that too. that I drag the past on. how can you not, when they keep repeating the same behaviors from the past?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:39pm
sherry winter says:
Nassaugirl, my Sociopath, “Jeff”, would get mad at me when I’d say anything that let others know we were together. He’d say I talked too much and that he was a gentleman and it was no one’s business that we slept together, and I’d say… “But I’m proud of you!” What I didn’t know was that he was telling my boss, my friends, his mother, his brother, and the other women that he was sleeping with right under my nose, that we were JUST FRIENDS, and that them knowing we were intimate would not only ruin the three LOCAL affairs, but could end his long term long distance affair. Oh, lets not forget, might cause problems at work since he uses his job and his position as lead worker, to manipulate women into his bed on the tax payers nickle!.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:18pm
sherry winter says:
notagain, you are right, how can we NOT bring the past up, when it has so totally ruined our future!
When I was foolish enough to trust my sociopath “Jeff”, I was happily married. I was the queen of the world, and had no plans of ever leaving my husband. I was simply trying to find out more about him to see if he was worth setting up with my girlfriend. Then came all the mind control and lies…. the planting of seeds of discontent that ultimately ended a very HAPPY marriage.
Sociopaths can smell someone vulnerable, and when they can’t smell it, they know what seeds to plant to make sure they have fertile ground for their head games in the future.
I lost my husband. I lost a life where I was so happy, I woke up every day excited to be alive. I lost my lifetime hobby of showing horses. My ex husband remarried someone who was almost a stranger just a few months on the rebound. I lost my retirement plan. And I lost about $100,000 of equity in my home.
The most important thing I lost was not financial though. I lost my faith in man, and even myself. I lost my faith in God… I no longer believe in a creator who actually cares about me or any one else in this world. I lost my hope and my dreams… my dream now is to make it till tomorrow, and not be too disappointed about it.
I used to love my life, love my husband, and love the future I saw inside my head. Now I like my fiance but don’t really believe in love. I hate my life. And as for the future???? I try not to think about it any more, because the picture I see in my head isn’t worth sticking around for.
Bitter? That’s what I’ve been called by some. I didn’t just lose 2 yrs of my life, I lost myself. I will believe there is a god when all sociopath’s who hobby is ruining others lives, simultaneously die of some painful and horrible disease. Until then, I may very well believe there is SOME sort of god, but he doesn’t give a rip for me or any of the other victims of these men/women.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:34pm
Matt says:
tami:
I’m assuming you’re the former “tami newman” poster. I think it’s incredibly generous of you to actually entertain the LF blogger known as “biddy”’s questions. Lord knows, she needs somebody who understands. However, I can’t help but comment on the craziness of your situation with her — that the S’s current wife is reaching out to the S’s former wife and trying to convince the former that the S really is “trying” to change. Doesn’t that whole situation just speak volumes about the crazy-making behavior of an S?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:21pm
tami says:
Yep, Matt, that’s me. It had been so long since I posted that I had to re-register…forgot my login info! LOL!
Yes, it IS quite crazy. She says she writes me because I’m “the only one who understands” yet she just doesn’t get it. She has finally concluded that he is probably a sociopath but he has her convinced that she can change him by giving him her unconditional love. I’m old enough to be her mother and any feelings I had for him died when he took his mask off and I realized that the 8 years I spent with him weren’t REAL. I might as well have been in love with Mickey Mouse! I also knew the girl before my husband started having an affair with her. I’ve never blamed her…she just got targeted when he realized that I was too close to seeing him for what he really was and had given him the ultimatum that if one more questionable incident occured, he’d have to go. She’s young and very vulnerable. Maybe one day she’ll get it and hopefully it will be while she’s still young enough to pick up the pieces and move on. I’m very happily remarried but my heart goes out to anyone involved with a sociopath–especially the woman who ended up with the one I once called mine! I’m try to be a very understanding and compassionate person. I have no hard feelings toward her…I pity her.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:44pm
Matt says:
tami:
I seem to recall that you live in a more rural area. I saw a bumper sticker that would be most appropriate in your case:
“I still miss my ex…But my aim is getting better.”
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:18pm
sherry winter says:
Matt, don’t be so surprised. I am friends with my ex Sociopaths Ex wife, and at least on civil terms with his ex mistress in Florida. I have thought about making us a FORMAL group called, “sisters of misery!” However, the two of them will never talk to each other.
We were all lied to, we were all used, and he has slandered each one of us to the other at some point. Still, even knowing that he’s just a spider, and doesn’t care for any one, just catches anyone, and every one he can in his web.
STILL get into this weird competition thing at times. It is really sad for two women who were lied to at the same time about the OTHER woman would feel the need to compete with WHO he actually cared for more, even AFTER they realize there were a half dozen OTHER women on top of the one they knew about! It’s just sad, but that’s what sociopaths do to your head. Get you totally screwed up!
His ex tried to warn me… she knew he was a carrier… she knew he still had the Florida girlfriend… and I defended him no matter what. In the middle of a crowd of people, I told her that we would just have to agree to disagree, because I believed him, and believed IN HIM… His own mother warned me. But he had been very careful to brain wash me to make sure I would not falter when I met someone who would tell me the truth.
The only thing that his current wife will understand is when she walks in, and catches him red handed with someone… possibly multiple times, with an excuse for every one. Once you have totally given yourself to believe in someone, you don’t want to even believe your own eyes.
His ex wife is kind, that is all. Cori has finally broken free from the anger from her ex. He can’t hurt her any more, even though she went under the knife because of his womanizing and promiscuity. She still belongs to an organization where she sees this man who almost KILLED HER, on a regular basis. She tried to warn me, and I didn’t appreciate it, nor will any of the women she may warn in the future.
Just like I could lose my job when I get stuck moving back into the office where he works if I tell ANY ONE that he uses his position to rack up notches on his belt… or even that he is a lifetime carrier of an STD! According to them, I am the problem, not him, since he keeps his GAME PLAYING with others lives hidden in the shadows. On the other hand I would be making an unhealthy work place for all those poor little woman who would be frightened if they found out he was a sociopath!
The only think I learned in those two years was, “Life sucks, and then you die.”
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:32pm
Lillian says:
hi all it’s me Lillian: Well I had the mediation with the P yesterday and no consequences fits perfectly with the situation. He wants 200K after only putting in 80K to my $400K. Never paying a think while he lived with me. He wants me out of the house. And even if i have to let it go to foreclosure that is better than letting me stay. We spent six hours yesterday and he gave not an inch. I threw up when I got to my car after the meeting. I had to pull over in traffic and lean out of the door. I am still naseaus. We meet again on Friday. I haven’t heard from my lawyer as he can’t take me. I was okay for about three hours and then I lost it. I called him a scumbag, slime and his girlfirend a skank. Told him I wanted to choke him and to wipe the smirk off of his face. He couldn’t look at me the whole time. I never took my eyes off of him unless i was talking to someone else. He looked down while he talked his lies. No wonder I still feel sick. He is like a virus. And I am ill. More to come on Friday but I don’t think I’ll get anywhere. We are paying all these people to get no where. Only to have the judge rule in May but by then I am afraid I will lose he house. I am adrift again in a pscyhopathic sea of hell. xoxo Lillian
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:40pm
shabbychic says:
Lillian, this all sounds so awful, I am so sorry you are going through this, any idea which way the judge will lean? I pray that things go better on Friday. I wish I could say something to help you feel better.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 9:46pm
LouiseGolem says:
So interesting to read all these comments. Thanks to all for sharing, and making me feel sane!
For the past two months I’ve been breaking up with a man who fits the sociopath profile to a “T” The counselor I’ve been seeing agrees with me. Of course, it’s taken two months because when I first attempted the break up I was in such shock – still “in love,” still deeply under his spell. I continue to struggle with that somewhat, but I haven’t seen him for over two weeks now. He writes me e-mails and occasionally I read them and reply. I’ve talked to him twice over this time period.
Why?
The thing with him is, he has threatened me more than once, and I’ve felt these strange need to keep some line of communication open with him so I know where his brain is at. He’s prone to extraordinary mood swings, and has the emotional maturity of about a five year old. He really does scare me a bit. So I do check his e-mails, and have talked to him twice over this time period. I know that’s not a good idea.
Yesterday, despite the fact that I keep telling him “it’s over,” he informed me that he was certain I would be moving in with him and even married to him before the year is out. I was stunned! When I have communicated with him over the past couple weeks, my message has been pretty consistent: “I don’t want to be with you anymore.”
I was so stunned by his insistence we would be together forever, and then I read this article this morning. It struck me as precisely what I’m dealing with: someone who is so convinced of his own delusion that in his mind it will all turn out to his benefit in the end.
I take some comfort in seeing that this is a recognizable pattern. And yet, this still frightens me. I worry that he could be so obsessed with me that he will pursue me — (his kids both recently moved out of his house, and his “best friend” stopped speaking to him.) And yet that “optimism” continues, in the form of very painful lies. . .
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 10:09pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
My ex-S told me more than once we would marry, she would take my name, and sell my house and buy a farm. If something should ever happen that she was on life support in the hospital, all heroic efforts should be tried continually to save her life. How’s that for optimism?
Broke
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:41am
Lillian says:
hi shabbychic: I do believe that in the end the judge will do what is provided for under the law. He will get a percentage. What I have to prove is the percentage he did contribute and we’re about 50k apart. But mediation is mandatory before trial and I may not make it to May since I am still unemployed. So, not sure what will really happen. Your thoughts are appreciated. To know i’m not alone. xoxo Lil
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:27am
a_real_wife says:
lol – wow!
The Nov 5th posts of the P-letter to Skylar and Oxy’s “TRANSLATION” – beautiful…
I was thinking pretty much the same COMMENTS that Oxy made, while I was reading Skylar’s post.
Then whenI read Oxy’s translation, I just had to comment here:
BRAVO!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:45am
tami says:
Matt and Sherry – it is he and the new wife that live in a rural area but I can appreciate the comment! LOL!
What amazes me most about my communication with Biddy is that she’s acknowledged that every single thing I warned her about him has came true in HER life with him. Actually, she has had a much worse experience in a much shorter time than I did. Thank goodness, he didn’t give me 2 incureable STDs as he has given her…genital herpes and HPV. The HPV is the type that causes cancer in women. She’s already had cancerous cells removed and has to be re-checked every six months.
She speaks of the nightmare his actions has created for her health. She complains of being exhausted from trying to feed his constant attention needs, about his insane jealousy, she refers to him as “sick” and perverted, complains about his trashy choice of friends, etc. Then, she has a talk with him. He reminds her that it is his “insecurity problem” that has always made him do the things that he has done. He reminds her that he really needs a lot of attention and that if he doesn’t get it at home, he tends to go elsewhere…says he gets scared of being alone and has to find a backup in case he loses her. He tells her how beautiful she is and that he feels more secure with her and believes that SHE really does love him because she has stood by him through his cheating with multiple partners and the transmission of the STDs that came as a result.
The power that this man has over her mind will NEVER cease to amaze me. Yes, he had me fooled at one time, too, but I didn’t have a clue about the things he was doing. Had I of known, there is NO way I would have stayed with the man another second! I KNOW this about myself. I can’t understand how he has managed to convince her that black is really white. Is it her youth that makes her vulnerable enough to believe that a 43 year old man will change for her when she knows even the darkest parts of his past and has experienced her own torment from this man? Do “You’re beautiful” and “I love you” mean that much to some people? She is 10 years his junior and speaks of how she sees him losing the charm and looks that he once had and how picking up women won’t be as easy for him to do now!
She wrote me yesterday to tell me that he was once again talking about how he owed me an apology…said he said it would close doors for BOTH of us meaning myself and HIM! Is he crazy? My door is not only shut, it’s NAILED shut! And, what unclosed door does HE have? No need for me to worry about receiving an apology because he’s been telling HER how sorry he was for the way he treated me and his previous women for nearly 3 years. I told her if he really felt remorse, he’d tell ME and the others that he was sorry instead of wanting her to believe that he feels badly about the things he has done.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 4:44am
witsend says:
tami,
How I remember when she (biddy) was posting here for the short time. Some posters though their time here is short, you just never forget. She just seemed so young, so innocent. Much younger even, than her years.
I think you nailed it when you said the power that he has over her mind never ceases to amaze you.
He has done a real number on her and has distorted her reality to the point where she is LIVING in HIS reality. He has completely disoriented her to the point where she can’t see what is real. Convinced her that his WORD is reality and his actions mean NOTHING. She is mesmorized by his lies….How much he needs her. How she is different than those that came before her. How much he loves her. How sorry he is.
Hopefully one day she will get sick and tired of being sick and tired. And she will know that she has a soft place to fall.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:28am
witsend says:
tami,
I think he has also brain washed her into thinking that even though his ACTIONS don’t mean anything HER actions mean everything in this relationship.
He has instilled in her that if she doesn’t give him all the “attention” that he feels entitled to he might “stray” to find it.
So therefore he places all blame of his actions onto her. Emotional blackmail.
If you don’t make me happy and satisfy me then I will find someone who will. And it will be all HER fault and not his.
And by isolating her further from people, places and things….He has made her “world” very small. He is the only one of importance in it.
Thank your lucky stars you got away from this guy.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:40am
OxDrover says:
Hi, Tami! glad to see you back.
With the Biddy thing, I think she is “creating drama” by triangling you into the mix.
By haivng someone to talk to about how “badly he treats her” and then NOT doing anything about it, she is playing a game of “Yes, but….” as Dr. Eric Berne would have said in “Games People Play.”
BIDDY: She tells you how bad he is treating her
TAMI: “well, leave the bastard, he’s a psychopath, he treated me the same way”
BIDDY: “Yes, you are right, but…..(fill in the blanks with) I love him, he says he will change, etc etc.
and you go on and repeat and she repeats “Yes but…” to every suggestion you have, and at the end of the game when you have run out of suggestions and she’s had the last YES BUT she wins the game and reinforces the idea in her mind that she needs to stay, which is what she wanted to think in the first place.
I had a friend once who used to bail her BF out of jail afte rhe beat her up. She would come to my house with black eyes and tell me how horrible he was and that she had put his butt in jail. I would tell her she did right and that she should move his stuff to the curb.
Instead, she would go bail him out the next day (she eventually married him, quit her job of 22 years and moved to another state with him.
After many episodes of this drama, she came over one night beaten up and I had determined if she bailed him out again, I would never talk about him again.
So she did and the next time I saw her, the ONLY subject she wanted to talk about was how badly he was treating her after she bailed him out.
I told her, “Marilyn, I love you, and I am sorry that Dave is treating you badly. As long as you stay with him, however I do not want to discuss HIM or your problems with him. We will tak about anything else in the world but we will NOT discuss Dave and your relationship.”
Sometimes I have looked back on that night and wondered if I was too harsh with Marilyn, she went on to ruin her life with this man, and I understand WHY, she was addicted to him, etc. but at the same time, I did NOT want to be part and parcel of her “drama-rama”
I think the situation with Biddy is the same Drama-rama, and that she is using your good nature and your HOPE that you can get through to her for her own “support” in staying with him. My opinon is what it was back when you posted about it months ago. Tell her that you know he isn’t going to change and that if she ever does leave him, (for good) that you will help her get some support. SHE KNOWS the truth, she just doesn’t want to face it, and I think as long as she has you to listen to her tale of woe and empathize with her, she won’t “hit bottom” and sometimes we have to hit that bottom of the hole before we stop and look up and see the light at the top. Just MHO.
((((Hugs)))) Tami, glad you are back!
She counters
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:04am
witsend says:
Tami,
You know oxy has a point about hitting bottom. As with any addiction someone has to hit bottom before they will deal with their problem.
LORD knows biddy needs a friend. He has managed to isolate her enough.
However each time he convinces her of his lies and she ACCEPTS them as his truth and then she “passses” them along to you in conversation and JUSTIFYS his behavior and his words to you….This makes it all the more “real” ( HIS REALITY), in her mind and very small word she lives in. So in her attempt to justify him to YOU she becomes more convinced (instead of the opposite reaction) that his LIES are the truth.
It is essentually like telling a crack addict that crack is bad for them. They don’t HEAR you but they justify in their heads that you are wrong. Even though everything indicates in the crack addicts reality that crack is BAD for them. At some point even talking to them about their addiction becomes enabeling them.
Maybe you could tell biddy that you can be her friend to talk to about ANYTHING she needs to talk about EXCEPT him.
You might make it all about YOUR feelings about her situation. It troubles YOU to hear of her being treated so poorly by this man you know so well. And although you support and care about HER, you can’t support her decision to be with him.
You could further imply that the reason you LEFT this man was because of his pathological lying. Gentle but firm. You don’t want to be part of the triangle anymore. But you would be glad to be her friend in other aspects of her life. (not that she has a life because of him)
Does that make sense?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:47am
OxDrover says:
Dear Wtis,
Thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say, you said it much much better than I did, but our ideas are the same. Your last two paragraphs are so right on!
Tami, I know it is tough to see someone else abused, but sometimes our caring is actually counter productive to their healing. ((((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:13am
Matt says:
tami:
I floored (although I shouldn’t be) by the double standard employed by biddy’s husband with regards to their respective behavior. About the only advice you can give her is that she should be quietly salting away money for when she finally has to make her escape. Because, that day will come (hopefully). I remember last time there was some issue about her moving her trailer onto her MIL’s land and couldn’t afford to move it. In her shoes getting that cash together would be my number one priorty. Something tells me, however, that she is doing something really stupid like turning her paycheck over to the S.
As for that door of yours which is nailed shut — I’d dump me a whole truckload of cement in front of it.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:20am
shabbychic says:
lillian, so good to hear from you, of course you’re not alone! We’re all going to pray that you get a job and get to keep the house and that the judge goes your way!!!! Love you, chic.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:22am
ErinBrock says:
Lilian:
I’m not too familiar with your circumstance….but I wanted to offer you hope and positive thoughts!
Mediation can be a real joke……if your not happy with how it’s going….let your attorney know….
I’ve read up on mediators and it’s a big business nowadays. It can be very effective, but usually NOT with a S. An S will only negotiate YOU down.
Attorneys will appear ‘willing’ to negotiate YOU down. Make it clear to your attorney going in…..what you are willing to concede on and NOT. It’s all about the negotiations. Thats it.
You realize you are going to have to ‘give’ to get….it’s the appearances…..and hopefully you have enough faith in your attorney to anti up FOR you……and not bargain your position away.
I also suggest that you remain in control of YOU! This is IMPERATIVE! Fake it, bite your tongue, hold a tack in your hand and poke yourself…. do whatever it is you have to to remain in control of your emotions.
I know this is the most difficult part….but…..it will make or break your case! You don’t want to drive any wedge between you and your attorney either. Attorneys are judging your behaviors also….in case it goes to trial….they want to see how in control of things you are…..both YOUR attorney and the opposing…….you are always being judged and you may never know it! Attorneys are NOT emotional, it’s all business….and you must handle it as all business.
It’s the business of separating assests per the law.
When you ‘go off’….it may feel good temporarily…..but when you bite them unsuspectingly….let me tell you……you are in a much better position. It’s more of a delayed satisfaction than an initial rush.
I’m assuming your records and documentation are the back up you will need……so if you and your attorney are certain on your position……and your documented….THAT WOULD BE WHY HE WANTS MEDIATION….you don’t have to negotiate your postion on the property if you feel a judge will be swayed by your documetnation.
My first attorney wanted me to give up and I REFUSED! I had no reason to concede…..I had deeds/ titles/payments….miles of documentation, and he just didn’t want to bother……He wasn’t honest with me on the law, and that was WHY i hired him….I needed his guidance….
It was HIM that didn’t find MY case worth persuing…..I did, and moved on…..with GREAT Benefits!
Know your case, know your facts, research the law and…..
Keep your eye on the ‘prize’…..
Please, if you can do one thing for yourself….DO NOT BLOW YOUR COVER…..take a break, remove yourself from the room, and recoup your emotions….do not lay all your cards on the table!
Good luck on Friday!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:12pm
witsend says:
Guys at 2 o clock I am going to the counselor. I am still preparing stuff I want to bring with me.
PLEASE send me your prayers and whatever else you might send as far as positive energy. I am going to need it all!
I have decided not to insult her intelligence and tell her what I think my sons problem is. (No LABELS) Rather go in prepared to express what his symptoms, troubling traits, and behavior is.
I will also tell her that I have researched personality disorders because of how severe I think his problems are. And finally I thought I might ask her how familiar she is with personality disorders and how they can manifest within a juvinile.
Is this good?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:27pm
Matt says:
witsend:
Excellent. Suggestion — how about printing off the so sociopathic checklist on this site? It is short, a quick read, and well laid out. It would provide you for a framework to discuss your son’s symptomology.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:32pm
Rosa says:
Tami:
“She wrote me yesterday to tell me that he was once again talking about how he owed me an apology…said he said it would close doors for BOTH of us meaning myself & him.”
This guy is good. I mean, he’s REALLY good.
I think I read somewhere that this man does NOT want Biddy conversing with you, right?
My theory on this “apology” is that it will convince Biddy that everything is good between the 2 of you.
And therefore, she will no longer feel the need to converse with you.
It really has nothing to do with you or him.
It is just an attempt to isolate Biddy from you.
He knows you know him like a book, and he wants to eliminate your influence from her thinking, and her life.
“And what unclosed door does HE have?”
His wife is still conversing with you, and he HATES it.
THAT’S the unclosed door he is trying to shut.
When it comes to apologies and con-artists, there is always an ANGLE. You just have to find it.
I believe the angle here is that he wants to end the conversations between Biddy and you.
~This is just my own theory, based on what I have read.
Others could have a completely different take on it.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:38pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
I am thinking of you!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:39pm
ErinBrock says:
WITS:
GREAT!
You want to open a door with her, but you also want her expertise….today will be a familiarization session….and the next few..so don’t expect too much today!
You will have plenty of time to evolve with the counselor.
It’s OKAY….your dong JUST FINE!!!!!.
I’m sending you my MOJO GIRL!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:43pm
Rosa says:
Tami:
I might also add that an “apology” to you would show Biddy how he is “changing” and “becoming a better man”.
It could also be a ploy to soften you up.
So, if Biddy does continue to reach out to you, you will not speak so negatively towards him.
Again, my own thoughts based on what I’ve read.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:53pm
ErinBrock says:
Rosa:
You have so much insight and wisdom!
I appreciate your posts here…..thanks for being such a valued member!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:55pm
Matt says:
tami:
I recall when biddy left this site that she had told you something to the effect that “If you (tami) would stop interfering in our (biddy and S) marriage, that everything would be all right.” The irony of that statement always stayed with me since it was biddy who kept trying to pull you into the drama, not you inserting yourself in it. I often wonder if the next time things come to a head between biddy and S if she’ll go after you again, when all you’ve done is be a friend to her.
I also wonder what it will take for biddy to finally smell the coffee. In a relatively short time she has experienced STDs (including one of he precancerous variety), financial ruin, betrayal, lying deceit, emotional blackmail…and the list goes on and on.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:59pm
ErinBrock says:
Oxy:
It was boundaries you set with Marilyn……it wasn’t harsh…..we can only help so much, and be a ‘friend’ so much…..but in time we become enablelers.
It becomes unhealthy for all involved…..we can’t coddle these people and tell them….yes, i think you are doing a fantastic job at bailing Dave out of jail….Uh, duhhhhh.
We hope that they can see it before we have to firmly vocalize our boundaries and stick to them.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 1:59pm
Rosa says:
Erin:
I feel the exact same way about you.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:07pm
Matt says:
ErinBrock:
I was thinking of you last night.
I went to a gathering of former colleagues. I’m chatting with a couple of people, and who swans in but my former boss — the S who, when called for a recommendation on me several months ago (I was the top candidate), gave me a perfectly fine one, then turned around, called her lover who was a former colleague of mine, had him apply for the job, and sang an opera on his qualifications. Yes, he got the job.
Anyhow, I wanted to rip her throat out on the spot. Instead, I knew I couldn’t avoid her since I still need to play ball with her for when I need a future recommendation. So, I decided to see just what her delusion factor was. So, I went up to her. She proceeded to give me the air kiss — unususal since she NEVER does that. Hell, I saw her SHAKE HANDS in the airport with her husband when she ran into him.
So, we had a lovely little chat about summer vacations. I told her she would probably be getting a call for another job I was interviewing for, and then I left.
2 friends followed. They were floored. One said “when she kissed you it was like Jesus and Judas.” The other said, “what was so amazing was that she acted like everything was just fine. Obviously she doesn’t have a clue that everybody in the room knows what she did to you.”
Me? I have to play ball with that S-bitch since she is very well known in my profession. So, I deserve an Oscar for my performance. As for her, a friend of mine practices wicca and I am having her put the mother of all “justice spells” on the S-bitch. Hey, these spells work. She put one on her sister’s S-fiancee and he promptly had a massive heart attack, after he recovered lost his job, and has now been publicly exposed on a government website for his frauds.
Sociopaths. Their ability to think they can bullshit a crowd is always amazing, isn’t it?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:09pm
blueskies says:
Tami, its lovely to see you back.:)x I have not forgotton Biddy or you, such an incredible situation, such an amazing woman you are Tami, and Biddy so deep in it, it broke my heart!
My thoughts on what you said above are (please tell me if you think I am out of order) that I worry that her communicating your sound advice to her… to him actually tightens his grasp on her… gives him the heads up on diffusing it and further manipulating her, seeing her off at the pass and she then gets in deeper….
How on earth do you help someone like dear biddy without feeding the monster? He is learning how to conter-act every piece of insight she gains…using you (further) to manipulate her…like with the bogus apology to you…
Right I may get totally boinked off the board here for saying this, but I wonder…. if you stepped away, would the walls fall down(his mask slip) a lot quicker?
Blue xxxxx
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:26pm
ErinBrock says:
Tami:
As long as Biddy doesn’t wish to ’smell the coffee’, she won’t.
She’s getting a harsh lesson on ‘So you think your special’.
The article I posted about the OW. the Next victim.
What oxy posted about the triangle is very true…..and the only way you can avoid being in that triangle is……Step out.
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:27pm
blueskies says:
Maybe we need to sit out the ’so you think you’re special’ lesson all by ourselves to finally wake up and get out…a ‘buffer zone’ isnt always a good thing:(xx Just thinks….
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:33pm
Lillian says:
Erin: Thanks for the great advice. I will fake it. I will not lose it again. Last time he had to stop himself from smiling so I know what you mean about a satisfaction. I hadn’t seen him or talked to him in two years. He made me physically sick. I threw up after the meeting even with nothing in my stomach. I was sick all day yesterday. Feeling better and stronger today so Friday should go better. And, I know about lawyers. Mine hates me he also wants me to just settle for what is and I’m not willing. But, i am also out of resources and he is still showing up even though I owe him money. I feel stuck. I can’t wait for this to be over. Love Lil
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:39pm
Lillian says:
btw those of you who would like to comment on my P’s stuff he is posted on http://www/dontdatehimgirl.com under wehrlie. please vote on his behavior. 1 being good ten being bad and leave comments. It helps me. It just does. Thanks. Lil
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:46pm
ErinBrock says:
Matt:
Oh how they work the crowd….
Knowing that…..You gotta work it more!
You played it well my dear…..counter control….air kiss and all!
LOVE IT!
Now that madum slick has her lover placed and employed….Your in a great position for the BETTER JOB!!!!
The joke will be on them! You KNOW that! Right?
I thought of this thought this morning….aobut how the S alienated me from everyone in his life….EVERYONE! And how this didn’t serve him well……
I never asked or demanded anyone to ‘take sides’…….I just pulled away naturally, and for my own safety and reducing my vulnerabilities to the S. I didn’t burn bridges, as much as I wanted to tell, (and even now) then all to fuck off and rot with the S.
Now I realize how, if I needed info, recommendations or whatever….It wouldn’t be odd for me to place a call, run into any of these people I MAY NEED later……I would not have to do any ‘clean ups’. Family, clients, friends, neighbors….whatever…
Yes, it’s keeping the networking options open……
Something the S never did, he needed to satisfy his immediate need of control over me and ego boost of controlling others…..well…he received that….NOW, he’s left with NO ONE to infiltrate me or gain access to my property or my children or business……
NOW WHAT HOMEY? Bad move, as it turns out, huh…..
The old saying is true…..
NEVER BURN YOUR BRIDGES! You just never know.
>>>>>Darling!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:46pm
blueskies says:
I also wanted to add that my thoughts on the reason biddy ‘isnt ready to smell the coffee’ is because she is being so incredible well blind-sided,and we’ve all been there, by this one (this one is hip to ALL the tricks, and he’s getting the ‘cheats’ to his game from his victims the f*****r), she’s stuck in the mud, not really because she refuses to…her mind is not her own…yet.:)x
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:48pm
ErinBrock says:
Blue:
Whatever the reason is…..it is.
I maybe shouldn’t comment, because I am not too familiar with the situation.
I am very aware of the manipulations and twisting, contorting and splitting crap they pull…..and how we all get caught up with it, until……..we walk!
I think she is aware and in the doubting herself and the reality of it all…..again….common.
I hope for her sake it’s on the horizon for her…..the new sun adorning!
I think your advice of stepping away (tami) is not a bad idea…..if Biddy can just be ‘involved’ with the lies without outside ‘influences’ she may lose the need to defend and without that…..she will be ’seeing’ more of what she is living, when the mask slips periodically.
Without denial…..we have reality….
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:58pm
blueskies says:
okay.I’ll butt out:)
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:01pm
ErinBrock says:
Blue….
Why…..you have great input….I agree with your thoughts girl!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:08pm
blueskies says:
I dont know if I even agree with my thoughts most of the time Erin:) Thanks chic.xx
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:25pm
OxDrover says:
That “drama triangle” of viscim, persecutor, rescuer is what Biddy is sucking Tami into. What my friend Marilyn was doing. For a long time afte rI set boundaries with marilyn (we will talk about other things, but not HIM) I actually felt GUILTY that I had “let her down” not been there to listen, etc.
That is what we have been trained to do is to think we can solve others problems and we CAN NOT, they must do it themselves.
When people DENY truth and reality with the “yes but…..” GAME, we can be aware that we are HOOKED INTO A GAME.
These are not checker games, but there is a winner and a loser and anyone who plays the DRAMA TRIANGE from any positon always loses.
I had a therapist tell me once that the ONLY LEGITIMATE RESCUE is to drag an unconscious person from a burning building.
I’ve always wanted to “help” others, but when me trying to “help” them means I am trying to drag them KICKING AND SCREAMING from a bad relationship against their wishes, I AM DELUSIONAL for trying to “talk sense into” them, as well as them being delusional for staying.
When my son C married the P-X-DIL I was upset, but I had only warned them both to WAIT to get married until they had had time to spend together. (He met her on the internet) and though they had “known” each other for a year or so and talked on the phone and so on, they had not spent TIME together. Of course that immediately made her isolate him as much from us as she could and tell him that they had to get married quickly “before your mother breaks us up”
It was difficult for me to keep my mouth shut but I did for the next 7 years, hoping beyond home that as soon as her son with MS died she would take a hike. Well, I wasn’t far off in how long it was before she planned to take a hike after her son finally died (2 months before the attack on my son, her husband) but she had started the affair several months before that when it became apparent her son really was dying this time.
She spent her time, the last week of her son’s life, out having sex with her BF either at my egg donor’s home or her van, while my son (his step father) took off work for a week and held her son in his last days and hours of life.
After the divorce, my son told me that within the first six months of the marriage he had regretted it, but he was committed to it and nothing short of the attack on his life would have made him leave her. So nothing I said or did would have changed the situation at all. It just took time for it to come to a head like a giant boil.
It is difficult to stand by and do “nothing” except WAIT. I know I am programmed to “take action” to DO something. so maybe the best lesson I learned was PATIENCE. Even now it is difficult for me to be wait.
Some things cannot be rushed. You can’t get a baby in one month by getting 9 women pregnant. You just have to WAIT.
I’m glad I did wait with my son C, and I am glad he was freed from the clutches of that woman. I know if he ever gets married again, he will still take those marriage vows seriously, but that doesn’t mean he will stand still for abuse again. He also has learned that though mama ain’t a prophet, she isn’t as dumb as he once thoguht she was and that she has no evil intentions toward him or his life. He’s also read (though never posted) here on LF and can quote LF “chapter and verse” on many aspects of dysfunction and psychopathy.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 3:52pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Blue,
I think we posted over each other, are you having a bad day? What’s going on chickie? You know you’re safe here. If you’re having some problems, let us know. We all have bad days, in fact, today has not been one of my stellar days either. I’m having to adjust to some things I don’t really like to adjust to (mostly just old age and not being able to do things I want to,) not so much emotional drama, but just adjusting to LIFE and some of the LIMITATIONS getting older puts on us. UGH!!!!!
Know that we are here for you and I think I can speak for everyone here at LF on that issue! ((((hugs))))) Oxy
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 4:03pm
ErinBrock says:
I second that Oxy….Blue….keep your chin up and NEVER DOUBT YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
NEVER!!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 4:21pm
blueskies says:
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 5:10pm
JaneSmith says:
Ok, just wanted to let LF members know that I read their sh*tty experiences with predators:
CAmom
Notagain
Newstart12
Sherry Winter
LouiseGolem
Tami
Lillian (btw-gave the parasite a big, fat 10 on dontdatehimgirl)
If I missed a new member, forgive. Not intentional.
THANK YOU all for sharing. It’s hard, I know, honestly and candidly expressing the deep, sordid details of past involvements with sleazy predators (reduntant?). Or, maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s comparable to removing a cumbersome mountain straddling your shoulders.
But know this: You are believed and understood. Implicitly. Not only the hard earned wisdom and insight you have provided is beyond measure of worth, priceless but so is each of you…worthy, valuable, priceless.
Peace, Love and Joy ad infinitum
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 5:35pm
witsend says:
UNBELIEVABLE is all I can say.
As I’m driving to the counselors office (VERY short drive) I am starting to feel a little doubtful…..I have had LOT of closed doors in the past in my quest to find help for my son…..It has given me almost a chip on my shoulder when I approach someone for help in this matter…. I’ll ADMIT that.
Always the first question is “has he broken the law yet?”
I didn’t even know what she was (degree wise) if anything. She is a Licenensed Master Of Social Work & Clinically Certified Forensic Counselor. Whatever that is….I thought she might be a social worker because of her association with the police dept. She is not in the phone book and this clinic is run by minestry.
We went long. Lucky for me there was no appointment behind me. TWO hours. I only wish I had found this woman 2 years ago. After I went through my paperwork and what I had “prepared” to try and stay focused…….
She explained to me in detail EXACTLY what had happened to my son when his father had commited suicide. She drew me a diagram. Almost EVERYTHING she said, I KNEW what she was going to say before she even completed her sentence. Because everything she said about his “damaged self” is stuff that I have KNOWN these things all along because I have watched it unfold. But could only speculate as to my own “uneducated” opinion of this. Turns out my uneducated opinion was right on.
This theory she counsels by, is an old theory. Freud practiced this type of psychology, and might have even been founder of it. (she mentioned but I can’t remember if he was founder of these principles)
She answered more questions at the very end of this session than I would have believed POSSIBLE. This insight is something that I REALLY needed a few years ago.
If there is anyone who could help him. I believe she could do it.
The bad news of course is that he has repressed these things so deep inside of him (something I also knew) that it could take a long time for them to even begin to surface. She would have to gain his trust first.
To REALLY simplify:
He is basically like a 17 year old body with a 4 year old brain function. (obviously not intelligent wise)
HE DOES believe his own lies. His lies are his truth. Because he is thinking with a 4 year old capacity. (I’m not crazy for thinking he believes his lies)
She even gave me insite to why he hates me. (cause I asked) And it was VERY interesting to hear her input rather than me tell her what I thought. Her input was very much what I after much thinking and had concluded after so much soul searching.
She said W/O seeing him and just from my perspective and the trama he suffered and his behavior, yadda, yadda, her diagnosis would likely be Opositional defiant disorder….And of course if this isn’t nipped while young she used the S word.
I got to go now…. But will be back later tonight.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 6:45pm
amber says:
Wit that’s great news. I’m glad you may have found someone who can help your son. What relief you must feel. I myself, just got done with an appointment with a counselor at school. She’s a licensed pyschologist, and my main priority was to talk about my relationship with the ex and how to put my life back together. I asked how familiar she was with Sociopaths and she said she was, but she didn’t have much imput on the disorder past that. In fact she kept telling me not to label him and demonize him that way…lol…whether he’s got the disorder or not. And I tried to make it very clear that his personality disorder was the reason I was there. Ehhhh…i wasn’t super impressed, but what can I expect from a free college counselor. She was nice and did have some positive advice, but not sure if she really helped with what I was looking for. I might give her a second shot, if I feel I really need it. It’s nice to know that it’s there for free since I don’t have health insurance right now. But awesome Wit that you have found someone that can help your son!!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:16pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
I am so glad that you found validation and support from this woman. If you get nothing else out of this, that is worth its weight in gold. ((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:18pm
jillsmith says:
Erin,
Great advice! I sometimes regret NOT sticking up for myself to family and shared friends (we share all of the same group of friends from college). I heard some of the crap he made up about me, but I never cleared my name. I wanted to take the higher road and to be safe. It didn’t seem worth it, so I kept my mouth shut and went NC.
I miss my friends and family, so I sometimes regret this action. However, I am safe and I don’t know that I would have been before, at least not physically and emotionally. Your post made me have less regrets about my decision because it put it all into a more clear picture.
Oh and I love your healing humor!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 7:19pm
kim frederick says:
Dear Witty, I am so glad that you’ve found some affirmation with your counselor……that you feel, finally that someone understands, but, for God’s sake it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that some of the really traumatic events in your sons life have taken their toll. Hasn’t!anyone else that you’ve talked to, understood this?
Didn’t you say that he’d been to psychologists before? Not to mention school counselors and school psychologists? etc.,etc ad infinitum. WTF! I’ve studied Psych 101, Child Psych, and Abnormal Psych, for a degree in Lit and I KNEW THAT MUCH.
Yeah!! You Altruistic educators… and you mentel health professionals. You just keep keep on keepin’ on!
I personally think they don’t give a damn.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:47pm
kim frederick says:
They fall through the cracks. turn away, it’s not your fault, they fall through the cracks. It’s not your job, they slip… it’s not your fault they fall. Look away. Look away.
Something from my studies in English:
Nobody loves the genius child.
Kill him. Let his soul run wild.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 9:57pm
kim frederick says:
I think, as I recall, that was Langstin Hughes, A Harlem poet, from the 1950?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:01pm
kim frederick says:
Not trying to get on a soap box, but for Gods sake. Aren’t there red flags and warnings, isn’t there something we can do to help these kids that DO GET LOST and become criminals?
Isn’t there a point before it’s too late?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:18pm
skylar says:
Well I talked to the xP today. He’s mad at me for saying that he poisoned me, but I pressed the issue and asked him what he poisoned me with and he replied that he mixed strychnine with botulism. At first I thought he was just making stuff up – and maybe he was, but I looked up the symptoms and they both involve muscle spasms, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAD and it all went away when I moved out.
In the past he had often said that if he wanted to get revenge on someone he could get botulism or ecoli and poison them. I wonder if there is any test that can be done 6 months later for these poisons. I lost so much weight that there probably isn’t any stored in my fat cells anymore.
He is mad at me for not believing all his lies. But in this case, I do believe him.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:56pm
ErinBrock says:
Wit:
2 Hours…..Awesome! It sounds as if YOU had a great session and was validated!!!!!
I’m happy for you!
Now…..how we gonna get junior in there? Maybe you could invite her to Thanksgiving dinner and she can be your new roomie?
Where do you go from here, is the cop still involved?
I am glad you have found someone to offer you hope!!!
Good day, good day!!!
XXOO
EB
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 10:59pm
shabbychic says:
witsend, I am so glad to hear everything went so well with the counselor you saw, your post sounds like you have some hope now, which is wonderful, I hope your son will talk with her too, and learn to trust her!
skylar, OMG!!! You knew it all this time! Believe the unbelievable, jeez!! If they pluck hairs out of your head and test those I wonder if they can find the poison, I bet they can, that’s what they do to new hires at some businesses to find out about drugs.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:01pm
skylar says:
SC, I did the hair test for drugs, i wonder if they can test for those chemicals in hair too?
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:02pm
witsend says:
Kim Frederick,
Well it REALLY shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that my son went through a tramatic experience and it is going to have some affect on him. NO ONE thus far that I have talked to even WENT there with him. They avoid it and I never could understand this???? NEVER.
Mental health is no different than any other “chronic” illness. You got to find the right doctor. Drugs are what most mental health professionals would prefer to administer rather than heavy duty therapy. Even more so when you have crappy insurance. Because therapy takes TIME and medicaide doesn’t pay long term therapy. Also drugs can sometimes provide faster results from a doctors perspective. However it ALSO doesn’t “fix” the core issue.
My son will very possibly not go see this counselor. I ALREADY know this and I am not setting myself up for major
disappointment. I hope the cop can convince him but this isn’t going to be a day in the park.
And she made it pretty clear that this stuff is not something close to the surface. It is something he is totally unaware that exist. And there is alot of pain there.
She feels he had ODD, ADHD and possibly other mental health disorders as well. If left untreated basically it worsens…. She was pretty careful when we “went there”. (the diagnostic arena) But she could see that I had already done some homework. So she did touch a tadd on S tendancies. Because ODD symptoms do not necessarily include some of my sons issues.
All stuff that I knew in my heart but no one before her was willing to validate.
I am not sure where this will all lead. Getting my son to go would be a miracle. Getting him to continue to go for any length of time would be another miracle. It IS possible that it is to late. It is also possible that it isn’t to late. All I know is that I can NOT be a “pollyanna” about all of this and get my HOPES way up there only to come crashing down again. I want to be realistic about it as I possibly can. She did not paint me a pretty picture. She drew me a diagram that was almost self explanitory.
I have got to take it one day at a time. If he refuses to go to her I will continue to see her.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:30pm
JaneSmith says:
Nassaugirl said…”People say that they are so smart, but I don’t care what anyone says…they are nothing but dumb and insensitive human beings.”
Yeah, I totally agree. I don’t think any of them are smart. Maybe wily, cunning, scheming, clever but not smart.
Oh, some may have a high IQ, but since predators are lacking in the essential, fundamental elements associated with being a human being, I would consider trying to communicate with a rock rather than a deluded, pathological predator.
They bare a striking resemblance to the primitive savage in the wild: “Me want food!” “Me want sex!” “Me want live in you pretty cave! Me cave-small hole in ground!” “Me real stupid savage! You not stupid savage! But mess with head to think you stupid savage! Like me!”
This reminds me of that film, Quest for Fire.
Hey! I think my ex starred in that movie! But he wasn’t wearing studio makeup or pretending either!…haha.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:37pm
shabbychic says:
skylar, I’m sure you already googled it, you’re better at that than I am!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:38pm
persephone7 says:
witsend:
I think I mentioned this one time but you might want to google ‘gracelyn guyol interview’ – on Madness Radio/holistic alternatives I think (don’t let the name throw you, it was not a woo-woo deal)- it was a really good interview I just happened to link into last year and ended up listening to whole thing – at the time I was wondering if my friend wasbipolar, depressed or what…Gracelyn Guyol wrote the book “Healing Depression and Bi-Polar Disorder without Drugs after dealing with doctors and having side effects herself from the drugs she was given- and not getting enough relief to satisfy her – it’s a really interesting interview and I wondered if there might something – anything she might say that might help you with your son. I remember when I was so frustrated and depressed during and after my second marriage and a doctor listened without saying much and then handed me a brown paper bag full of Prozac. I took it homeand just looked at it and then decided to take it back (I probably should’ve kept a few!) but I was naive and thought I might get hooked or something – at the very least it made me realize just how down and depressed I really was, so it was my own wakeup call. Your son’s situation may be alot more complicated but thought you might want to check this out. I bought the book on Alibris (ended up
giving to woman at work whose granddaughter was struggling with meds and being bi-polar in Calif.) and it has alot of true stories and Guyol’s own story as well.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:52pm
persephone7 says:
witsend…and all…sorry, still have to learn how to do links, will find out…
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:53pm
skylar says:
SC, I looked but haven’t found anything I can use.
Witsend,
I’m very curious what the counselor told you that explains why he hates you. This could be very relevant to me because my xP hates all women because he hates his mom.
Does your son ever mix up words and letters, like George Bush does: misunderestimate me? My xP does this all the time. He uses words that don’t go just because the sound similar to the word that does go – if it sounds the same, it must mean the same, right? Or he makes up words. I’ve researched this and it’s called aphasia. It is one of the hallmarks of the sociopath. They know words but they lack depth of meaning for the words, just like they can mimic emotion but not really understand the emotion in another human. This explains why they don’t get certain jokes like sarcasm or the double entendre. This really ties the pathology to the language center which is part of the “software” in our brains and not the “hardware”.
Today, the xP met me with some money I convinced him to give me. He was really dressed nicely and bathed. He looked much better than the time I surprised him at the airport. He doesn’t realize how this speaks volumes about his need to impress me. They have their own language, it’s the language of a 4 year old, there is no doubt.
I also understand what you mean about believing his own lies. But it isn’t that simple. I don’t think there is a word for what is happening in their brains when they tell a lie and invest their ego into it, all the while knowing that it is a lie. They just need US to believe in it so badly. Beyond anything you and I can concieve of, I think. I sometimes think that they are very close to a dual personality. perhaps this is what a borderline is. Perhaps when we describe “black and white thinking” we are calling it all wrong, maybe there is a gray area that they live in, which they can percieve as either white or black depending on their need.
Anyway, I’m learning the language and it has to do with sticking to the story and then giving it time to sink in. If you can talk to him in very small doses and create a story where he is the tragic hero when he attends the appointments with the shrink, he may agree to go. If he thinks that he can con the counselor he may go. Tell him you don’t know if she’s very smart at all, but the cop will probably consider him very responsible for going, so it might help him if he decides to move out. Tell him anything that will polish his veneer by going. I’m seeing more and more evidence with ALL MY SOCIOPATHS that the only way to make them be nice is to give them 2 choices. 1 choice keeps their veneer polished, and the other choice is a complete destruction of the veneer. They will never sacrifice their veneer. it’s the most precious thing they own.
The sociopaths, when asked if they miss having the emotional life of the empath responds, “well, since I never had it, I don’t know what I’m missing.” Sound familiar?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:06am
witsend says:
skylar,
If I could have had a little “mouse” hiding in my pocket today to take with me when I went to this session, I would have wanted it to be you.
I don’t know that this woman is any better/worse than any other person in her field. But what she did DO that hasn’t been a part of my experience so far….She was pretty straight foreward. She was frank, and open and had some very interesting input on the “damged child”. She went right to the core rather than “skirting” around it. And although she didn’t give me any false hope, she did give me something. Something I could understand.
For some reason when she was done talking to me at the end, I thought of you. I believe you would have got something from this woman as I have. Although I have yet to put my finger on ALL of what I took away from this session. There is some further thinking to do. Maybe it is just a deeper understanding of something I already knew all along.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:06am
shabbychic says:
perse, just go to the top of the page and highlight the web address you are on, then hold down the control button and then hit the “c” key (for copy)… then when you want it to print out somewhere you hold down the control key and then hit the “v” key (for paste). Try it on this paragraph, just copy it and then open a new word document and paste it out there (my daughter told me this after I had been using a computer for about 10 years)
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:13am
skylar says:
Wit,
I think you are right, but please tell me what she said about him hating you. I HAVE to know.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:13am
witsend says:
Skylar,
I posted this above post THE EXACT time you posted! OMG.
Well that was one of the last things I brought up. The hatred. It is difficult for me because I know how REAL his hatred is. And I understand it is hard for people to take that in. Usually if I tell someone my son hates me…I get the “yeah all teenagers hate their parents” kinda remark. Because she didn’t say a word until I was done….I wasn’t sure how she was “taking in” anything I had said so far……
Her take on the hatred was that he has manifested this hatred for me (in his 4 yr old brain) because I am the BAD guy. His major issue of course is the “no brainer” that he has abandonment issues. But his “truth” (“story” as you and I might refer to it ) isn’t that his father abondoned him as much as I have.
He was ALL alone with a dead body (her words) for 10 or more hours depending when he woke up that day. 10 hours for a child not yet 4 years old is an ETERNITY. I was his caretaker every day of his life. (not his dad) But I (the caretaker) left him that day for an eternity with a “dead body” that did not tend to any of his needs. Fact is he didn’t even know at the time his father was dead. (He thought he was sick.) But it is irrevelant.
He likely felt everything a child his age could feel during those LONG hours. Frustrated, lonely, scared, hungry, angry, tired….We can only imagine….the fact is NO ONE tended to his needs. I usually tended to his needs.
AND at some point he wanted his mommy. Mommy wasn’t there.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:35am
skylar says:
That sounds right Wit, they all have abandonment issues thats a fact. My xP tells me all the time that I abandoned him, over and over he says, I want someone who won’t abandon me.
He said, “I never wanted to grow up because your wife abandons you”
But then I think about his P-grandpa and how badly he treated his P-mother. The xP watched the P-grandpa abuse the P-mom and the P-dad didn’t defend her. I think there is another element here too. I just haven’t been able to tie them together. Your son watched your husband mistreat you and also punish you by leaving you permanently. These are just random thoughts I’m trying to make sense of.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:42am
witsend says:
skylar,
she also said that all of this is repressed. In other words he has no idea he hates me from the 4 year old perspective of this very early tramatic event.
His “story” in his 16 year old body is,….. well its HIS story. Because I am a terrible mother.
But the 4 year old “story” THE DAY of his trama is where it all began and in many ways also where it “ends” up today. He just doesn’t know the TRUE reason it exist and where it began. He just knows it is there, because it has manifested within him all those years.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:57am
persephone7 says:
shabbychic – thanks for the lesson! I tried it just for second and no luck but just your paragraph – I’ll figure it out after work tomorrow when my
eyes and brain are fresh – wrote your nice instruction down though so that’s great of you! I use computer for my art and have my own little world of expertise but am dinosaur on some other pretty basic things…
Witsend: you know your son best, sounds like I was probably barking up wrong tree (not first time!) Best of luck no matter what.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 1:04am
witsend says:
persephone7,
I didn’t even google it yet but I will just for the insite if nothing else. I’m to tired for any more “info” today. My brain has had enough today!
Thanks for this information….
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 1:10am
shabbychic says:
perse, cool, just don’t forget to highlight what you want to copy.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 1:23am
tami says:
Wow! Thanks to all of you. I can’t even begin to mention all your names! My heart goes out to each and every one of you in your own struggles. However, I feel weak because I mostly come here seeking advice rather than to offer it. Although, trust me, I have a complete handle on what the S/N/P is capable of and have to attribute my own personal healing to a professional counselor that actually referred me to this site. I guess my inability to help Biddy has had a huge impact on my belief that I can help others.
The latest feedback from all you good people has served as great affirmation to my own instincts. I actually have told her that I’d like to continue to be her friend but without discussing him. We manage that for a little while and eventually find HIM being the primary topic of our discussions! Aint that just classic of a sociopath? They have a way of being the very center of things no matter how determined we are to keep them at bay! LOL!
I totally agree with the reasoning behind his telling HER how sorry he is for the way he treated ME. However, I never considered that it might be his way of cutting off the line of communication. Her latest comeback about his treatment of me is that one of his family members confirmed that he didn’t treat ALL the women as badly as he did me and that they couldn’t understand why he treated me so badly when I treated him better than any of the others. The very same family member is one of many who informed me that he had always treated women in the manner he treated me. The thing is, as he so proudly announced just before leaving me, I was his “record” in that he stayed with me longer than any other woman he’d ever been with. And, went on to tell me how GOOD I should feel about that! So, of course he inflicted more of his crap on me because he of the greater length of time that he spent with me.
I have come to believe that there is a part of Biddy that reaches out to me and she really means it when she says that I’m the “only one who understands”. However, for those of you who don’t remember, he left ME for Biddy. And, it was only after he left that his friends, family and others started coming forward to tell me to dry up my tears and revealed to me all he had done behind my back and how he had behaved in a predatory manner when it came to women all of his adult life. Some expressed the extreme disappointment they felt when they witnessed him displaying the same behavior after he and I got married because they said that they honestly thought he had changed because he “seemed” to really love and respect me. I think that when I remind her that everything she is telling me is simply a repetition of my life with him, it’s too hard for her to hear. She begins to see that maybe she isn’t so “special” afterall and her fragile young and somewhat jealous heart can’t bare to hear that. So, she suddenly feels the need to defend her own position. Of course, I also know from my own experience with him, that he claims the reason all the women in his past feel such hatred towards him is because they want him back. Yes, the man is good, damn good! He does an excellent job at pitting the women against each other so they don’t team up on him!
I feel that Biddy reaches out to me and although she says she doesn’t share our conversations with him, I’d be a complete fool to believe that. I know exactly what she does. She tells him that it’s always ME who contacts her, tells him everything I have to say but does not implicate herself at all. She even reports his defense back to me! LOL! So, yes, he feels that it is only ME that he needs to make a mends of sorts with and everything will be just fine.
I have had dealings with people suffering from addictions and am fully aware of their need to hit rock bottom. However, I never considered this theory where Biddy is concerned. That’s a very good suggestion. I have actually cut off contact with her a few times…ignored an email, etc. A few weeks might pass by and then she’ll write to ask if I’m upset with her or to inquire about my wellbeing. I find it difficult not to respond to those emails. I’ve also tried playing along with her by agreeing with her by telling her that maybe he is really “trying” to change. That approach doesn’t work, either…it’s just a matter of time before she comes back with a new complaint.
I am tired, though, and have my own life to be concerned with. I agree, it is time to allow her to hit rock bottom.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:39am
kim frederick says:
Yes, Witty, I think you’re right to keep going to see the counselor, even if your son doesn’t go himself. It sounds like she has some insight into his psyche that has up til now been sorely lacking in the professionals you’ve turned to, for help.
If nothing else, she can help YOU, not feel so alone with the problem, and validate your perceptions. That, in itself is priceless when dealing with these……problems.
I was having trouble articulating my thoughts last night, so I gave up and went to bed, but I think it’s so sad when the system gives up on a child that could have been helped.
Thank God that nothing too bad has happened yet with your boy! Maybe it’s not to late. Let’s all say our prayers. At least this counselor is a shred of hope in an otherwise pretty bleake landscape. I’m praying your son see’s something beneficial in it for himself, and chooses to talk to her.
I soooo feel for you, and how crazy, sad, confusing, frustrating it must be, and how powerless you must feel in your inability to help him. God bless you both. And me, too………………………:)
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:43am
Easy says:
From Sociopathworld
http://www.sociopathworld.com/.....art-i.html
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:00am
kim frederick says:
Tami, I come to this conversation late. It sounds like others are far more familiar with your story than I am, so forgive me if I am way off base. This is what I’m getting: At an earlier stage in the ”game” (for lack of a better word) this communication with Biddy might have been a good thing (for you.) It may have validated your perceptions and given you a sence of closure. Don’t misunderstand. I can feel your genuine concern for her, but I don’t think your ongoing relationship with her serves either one of you well, anymore.
I think, on some level it keeps you involved with the XP, so it sabatoges the good we get from going NC. It is NOT your responsibility to save her, any more than it was your responsibility to save him. It’s up to her, now. You’ve given her all the information she needs. At some level, in some sick way, she may be trying to save him and her marriage for you! Does that make ant sense? Probably not. I can’t explain what I mean, it’s just something that I felt, when reading your post. I don’t think the XP should occupy that great a space in either of your lives. Let him do what he does and get on with it. Just MHO.
I’m glad you’re here. It’s nice to meet you, and again, if I’m off base, I don’t mind being told so.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:17am
OxDrover says:
DEar Tami,
For tyears after I set a boundary with my friend Marily because she kept bailing her BF out of jail after haivng him arrested for beating her up, and then she would run to me, so I set the boundary, and told her “we will NOT talk about HIM” and I actually don’t remember ever hearing from her again.
She needed an audience to “cry to” when he was in jail. I was that audience. At the time I didn’t know what a “P” was, only “mean people” but I knew a man who repeatedly beat up women was a “mean peopole” so I didn’t think she should bail him out.
I finally got over feeling GUILTY (feeling guilty is a good clue to look at ourselves and see if we are being manipulated.)
Marilyn was manipulating me to be part of her DYSFUNCTIONAL game and Biddy is I thinnk your version of my Marilyn.
I personally think Biddy, while playing the ROLE of VICTIM is a CO-BUSER. a “gasoline and fire” relationship. Maybe she isn’t a P, but think about it now.
She stole your husband, knowing he was married. SOOOO she knew she was huring you and she DIDN’T CARE….
The DRAMA TRIANGLE is a favorite “game” with co-abusers (I do not call them co-DEPENDENT because what it essentially means is that they are ALSO sitting in the ABUSER CHAIR at least part of the time, even though maybe their “favorite” chair is the PITY-PLOY “oh,, I’m such a victim”
Martha Stout says when you are feeling PITY yPLOY you are dealing with a PSYCHOPATH— so looking at Biddy from that point of view might put ANOTHER SPIN ON THINGS.
I think your (and our) compassion (from when she was on the board) has been HIGH JACKED by someone who is just PLAYING THE GAME—VICTIM-RESCUER-ABUSER
My suggestion is to go NC with her rather than keep on playing. She is NOT going to “get better” and you aren’t helping her, and you are irritating yourself and frustrating yourself and by hving contact with her, you keep HIM alive in your head.
Gosh I’m getting to be a cranky old bat! LOL ((((Hugs)))))
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:54am
skylar says:
http://www.amazon.com/Be-Ancho.....1580050379
Tami, here is a book that helps the family and friends of an abused person. It discusses how to be an anchor without trying to be a rescuer.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:34am
notagain says:
Oh my God. Nassagirl
that sound just like the letters that my ex keeps sending me in email. He could have wrote that letter himself! lol….
The only mistake I keep making, is writiing him back and trying to get him to understand, that, his behavior never matched his words. HE is the one living in a fantasy land.
He is trying to get a hint out of me, that I would take him back now. NO WAY!!!!!
I told him I met someone else. who is really just a friend, and has made me realize, by the way I feel when I am with him….how nice just simple friendship makes you feel inside….very calm, respected, friends are great!!! (I really did meet someone special) and this blog has helped me more than anything.
Been reading here for a while. And I can relate to just about everything. He takes everything about me, and twist and turns it into something it isn’t, using twisted logic, and irrational optimism, while his behavior…drinking, ripping me off, screaming at me, taking off for days at a time….abandoning me when I was pregnant with his child, and telling me that I AM THE ONE WHO IS BEING DEFENSIVE, IRRATIONAL, AND EMOTIONAL.”
———————————-
Here is my P’s latest letter
“Through all the bull shit………………..all the past that sucks…………………….I’d still come back and make it work!!! All you have to say is Chris…. I love you and I want to spend the rest of you’re life with you. You would have to mean it. I can live with out you………..I just didn’t want to.
Whatever……………………………should be bald by now. True love never gives up…..Frustrated or not, you don’t let go.
It takes two to make it work and only one to make it not work……………………Hence the break up.
You probably have found someone.
Love you anyways,
Always my friend, even if it’s just a memory,
Be good to yourself,……………Beautiful
————————————
In his letter, he forgets that he is the one, who continuoully screwed it up, broke his promises repeatedly, said things only to get what he wanted…..
He acts so nice, and forgiving, in his letters and acts like I destroyed the relationship…lol.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:10am
Matt says:
notagain:c
“The only mistake I keep making, is writiing him back and trying to get him to understand, that, his behavior never matched his words. HE is the one living in a fantasy land.”
Actually, you are making two mistakes. The first is the obvious one — writing him back. As long as you keep writing him back instead of going NC with him, he will continue to
have a hold over you. Every time you respond, every time you waste time thinking what how you will respond, every time you anticipate how he will respond and you will then respond just keeps his hold over you alive.
The second is that you are trying to get him to understand that his behavior and words never synched. Again, this is a mistake. You aren’t going to convince him of anything. He is perfectly happy with his life the way it is. And even if he isn’t, who cares? The only issue is that his life made YOU unhappy.
Having been down the same path you’re going down, all I can tell you is NC is the only way to reclaim your life. Through NC you stop wasting mental and physical and emotional energy on these creatures and can instead focus on yourself and ultimately finding a new, healthy relationship. But, a long as you are still allowing S to take up space in your head, finding a new relationship is a nonstarter since his presence will always be hovering over things.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:21am
notagain says:
Hello Matt…:)
Your right!
I hadent wrote him back for a little while, and once I did, I felt worse again. It made me realize that he “does” have an emotional hold on me, but only when I give in and contact him back.
I am getting to the point though, that I have no regrets about breaking up with him….I’m starting to realize that I most definitely made the right decision, and I’m slowly getting my life back.
The further I get away from him ,the better off I am, and its only when I write him back, that I start feeling bad again. With this last letter, I realized that this is a test….to see if I am willing to keep that door open to him. I know he would come back in aheart beat, but only because he can control me so well. Not because he has my best interest at heart. He knows he can have his cake and eat it too when he is with me. He knows how to slowly maniplate me…..
at first, admitting his mistakes and saying sorry.
A week later, saying he never did those things, and never promised this or that.
Then after that, its because I’m a defensive, insecure, and am punishing him for things that happened to me in my own past. (I was actually left for dead by two sociopaths in my teen years). He takes my past, and acts like I am punishing him for what happened to me. then he uses it as an excuse, to go drink the bill money away, and leave my everyday life a rollercoaster ride.
And I think that is the key right there. they have the power to take away your serenity, and then give it back. You thrive on that little bit of hope, where you will once again, get that little peice of serenity. But in reality, it is him, pulling the strings, dictating when you can feel good and when you can feel bad.
Thats why no contact is so good!!!!
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:40am
skylar says:
Excellent response Nassaugirl. kudos.
your xP’s comment sounds a lot like this quote from the Bush whitehouse:
The source of the term is a quotation in an October 17, 2004, New York Times Magazine article by writer Ron Suskind, quoting an unnamed aide to George W. Bush:
The aide said that guys like me were “in what we call the reality-based community,” which he defined as people who “believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.” … “That’s not the way the world really works anymore,” he continued. “We’re an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you’re studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we’ll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that’s how things will sort out. We’re history’s actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.”[1]
I’ve come to realize that the P’s are “story driven”. Instead of reality driven. If you give them a story that they can really get into, they will take it and run with it. But they have to keep their glossy veneer. They need to always come out looking like the good guy.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:44am
kim frederick says:
Morning, Skylar. How’re you doin’?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:49am
notagain says:
Hello Skylar..:)
Yes, they do always need to come out looking like the good guy.
Thats why you can have a nervous breakdown and tell them you hate them, leave, go….and they will write you a sweet letter, about “how we need to remember the good times” ofcourse not the bad times….lol.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:50am
skylar says:
Hi Kim, I’m good. how’s it going?
Hi notagain,
I used to think the best way to leave a P would be to go “gray rock” but now I think the best way is to tell them that they are too good for you, and you don’t deserve them. Play it. LOL.
Humility is always the answer because it’s reality-based.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:16pm
kim frederick says:
Yes. The P always found it imperative that we remain friends, and was totally baffled by my desire not to. He had a huge need to be seen as a good guy by everyone. I think it helps him in his fantasy about himself. He is so out of touch. Can’t see himself. The rules don’t apply to him, therefor his breaking them has no bearing on his character. He believes his own lies, and his fantasy.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 12:51pm
ErinBrock says:
Second the friends comments….
I have seen the S keep ALL and ANY relationships in his ‘memory bank’ of future/past victims…..
He has NEVER left any relationship without going back to keep em reeled in….it may not be often, but once your ‘in’ his life….he will never let you go…
It may be 5 years before he shows up again…..but he will
During our years….he always kept in touch, periodically with people from his past. Old neighbors, highschool freaks, co-workers….I always thought this was weird. He would go thorugh phases, during boredom, when he would get out his old telephone books and start making random calls…..
I never had the urge to contact people from my past…..if they were not important to keep in touch with all along, then they were left in my past.
When he left, I tore up some of the telephne books…..Ha…it was like I tore off his umbilical cord! He franticlally cross referenced people and gathered up numbers….for his security blanket.
He NEVER got birthday cards, Christmas cards or calls etc…so it was obvious no one was interested in him.
He would gain so much hope in the reconnection calls…..make BIG plans for so and so to visit or a trip with them…and nothing ever materialized. SHOCKING! Then he would get bummed, and wait another 5 years to contact them….
He immediately left here and went seeking out approval and renewed drug contacts back to the high school stomping grounds….
It never dawned on him, the only reason people took his call or invited him over, was because he was the supplier ……he always fantasized about there being more…..a real friendship.
HELLLLLLLOOOOOO.
He is a worthless peice of drug laden shit, with tall tales to tell of glamor and riches…..and how all the rich people he conned flew him around the world and paid for him first class, because he was just so wonderful……ALL UNTRUE STORIES!
My boss flew him to France….NOT first class….(he flew me and kids first class but NOT S) and he got booted before his scheduled trip back home……he was so conning and free loading……but THAT”S NOT the story HE tells!
He even kept in touch with his first GF from 30 years ago. Still, after she requested him to not contact her…..her husband didn’t like it…….
Never stopped him…..he would stop by her house, when H wasn’t home…….same thing….every 5 years or so……
It’s like….I know ya’ll like me and I will grace you with my presence periodically.
Then, turn his back and speak poorly of them and rip em apart behind their backs…..I saw it with everyone…..no one was worthy, all flaws were pointed out…..
He must be gay, I’ve never seen him with a woman, she’s fat, how could he love her…she’s worthless, he’s not a good father, look his kids on drugs……he’s bald and hasn’t aged well…….his kid sucks as sports, his wife needs a boob job and a new face, he’s not good with money, how could he do that job for 25 years…..he has no ambition…..
ALL THINGS I NOW KNOW……ARE ALL ABOUT HIM!!!! HIS INSECURITIES…..
There wasnt’ a person he didn’t shred….then go back to shred some more……
(oh, all except the wife bits….I’m beautiful, perfect and my boobs are great!)
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 2:08pm
Matt says:
ErinBrock:
I know well the story you tell — granted I had the Readers Digest version — 15 months versus 25 years, but still the same thing.
Of course, I had the definitive proof on just how popular Mr Wonderful was and how highly he was thought of by his rich and famous friends when I threw him a 40th birthday party. Catered, champagne, the works. Of the 4 people I invited, 2 RSVP’d they couldn’t come and 2 came. Of the 40+ he invited, his sister, the guy he crashed with after he was released from prison, and 2 friends and 2 of their tag-alongs showed. The rest didn’t even RSVP — and that only involved a mouse click.
At the time I actually hurt for him and was furious at them — how dare they treat him like that? Now I see the obvious — that they had been burned by him the same way I was.
His definition of what constitutes a friend and my definition of what constitutes a friend are obviously 180 degrees from each other.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 2:43pm
OxDrover says:
Matt,
that’s funny about the BD party and no one shows. Kind of like the bride was left at the altar! funny, too, how we don’t get these warnings that we saw WAVING like BIG RED FLAGS! LOL Of course hind-sight is 20:20 LOL
Anyone whose phone number they have they consider a “close friend”—my definition of a “close friend” is someone you call at 2 a.m. and say “mortgage your house and bring me the money at 9 a.m” and then hang up, and you KNOW they will BE THERE if they are not dead.
I’ve only had three CLOSE friends like that in my life, but they are worth their weight in gold. My late husband was one of those three CLOSE friends.
Unfortunately, like you I think, I have BEEN that kind of Close friend to more people than have reciprocated that closeness. But I am getting pretty picky now about my friends, and am expecting the same kind of respect and treatment FROM them that I GIVE them.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 3:21pm
notagain says:
NASSAGIRL,
Ya, they like to call you beautiful…lol. I got to a point where I realized he never used my name at all, and asked him to start calling me by my name. He reverted quick back to calling me beautiful. I think now, that its his way of seeing me as an object, and not as a person.
Ya, and it is true that they will always find a way to keep you on their list. My S, also kept dozens of useless and past phone numbers on his cell phone. Always carrying it, and actin glike mister popular. LOL….In reality, they were just a bunch of his drug addict friends looking for alcohol, a hang out, or advice on where to find drugs. His ex, calling for money for his kids too.
He definitely cannot understand why i do not even want to bother with him as a friend. He really thinks he is some grand person, and definitely sees him self that way, when the fruits of his life, are there for all to see. He has burned all his bridges, including the trust of his own children.
oh SKYLAR…..I think telling him that he is too good for me would probably work…lol. Its the ego boost he is looking for…:) Then maybe he would leave me alone. lol
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 4:04pm
kim frederick says:
Nassaugirl, So true. You can KNOW they’re lying, you can have PROOF that they’re lying, but to them, as long as they never cop, they aren’t really lying! I think it’s still a power issue, for them. Like they still have control as long as they don’t tell the truth.
It’s like Casey Anthony. That bitch will go to her grave swearing it was the nanny who did it. Mark my words. What a fool. And she, like the rest of them, over- estimated her intelligence. She was sure she was smarter than the detectives, and was sure her lie would pass the smell test, because, after all, she’s sooooooooooooooooo smart. How stupid! She couldn’t predict consequences of her behavior, either. And that’s another classic symptom of Psychopathy.
But, she has the power to take the truth to the grave with her, and she will. She will never give anyone the satisfaction of knowing anything like why she did it, or what she was thinking. And she believes that if she keeps to her story, eventually she’ll be believed. ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 7:39pm
skylar says:
Kim,
Well the P’s can think that all they want but it won’t last. Their conspiracy is coming to an end as they continue their raping and pillaging and we normals use the internet to get the word out about who they are.
They are easily recognizable when you know the signs. THEY LIE AND LIE AND LIE.
As far as Casey Anthony, we all know what she was thinking: ME ME ME ME. She felt entitled to do what she wanted because she wanted to. The little girl was just a figment of her imagination but it was keeping her from going partying every night. If we try to figure out anything more complicated than that for her “reasons” we will just confuse ourselves, because the P-mind is a 4-year old mind.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 8:35pm
kim frederick says:
Skylar, I believe she killed that baby, mostly to spite her mother. I believe that was her primary motivation, above and beyond La vida bella, or whatever it was.
I can’t wait for the trial. I hope it’s televised. I believe she’s a classic example of the slime we study here.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:07pm
skylar says:
Kim,
really? what makes you think it has to do with her mother?
Other than the fact that everything has to do with mothers?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:15pm
lostingrief says:
really interesting stories, here.
i appreciate hearing the stories other’s have about s/p/n’s. they are helpful in that we realize that they are all alike — it’s really spooky — and i for one, feel connected and safe with others who really understand the falsity of their entire being!
spath-hole came over once and said … no kiddin’ …
you know what they call me on the street?
the TRUTH! everyone knows how for-real i am.
WTF!?
(confession: i used to think that was hot!)
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:25pm
kim frederick says:
Sky, well she and her mother fought the night before she and Caylee dissapeared for 30 days. Her mother was furious because Casey had written forged checks on grandmas’ account that was supposed to support grandpa in his assisted living facility. Casey’s Mom said, “”You’ve got to go.” Casey apparently said something like, “You’ll never see your grand-daughter again…..and Mom responded, “shit, I’ve got so much on you, I’ll get custody of her, I’m the one whose raised her.” So next afternoon was the last time Casey’s Dad ever saw Caylee.
Casey was supposedly very jealous of Caylee. She broke up with one of her boyfriends because she said,”you love Caylee more than you love me.”
She always resented the fact that her mom held Caylee before she did, and she freely admitted that Caylee was more bonded to her mother than she was to her.
At one point, her mother said to her, “Casey, if anything has happened to Caylee it will kill me.” Casey’s response? “Oh well.”
It just makes sense to me. She wanted to win, when Mom was done….the game was up, her mask was off, and she was on her own.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:35pm
kim frederick says:
Oh yeah, and this too. When she was first interviewed by the detectives, lying through her teeth, and they found out she was lying, they asked her why she would lie, if her primary concern was to find her daughter, and she said, “because I knew my mom would kill me.” This just tells me that her emotional energy is focussed on her mom, not on her child….
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:40pm
skylar says:
Kim,
that’s more disgusting than the reasons I had attributed to her. But doesn’t that remind you of the sacrificial substitute victims from Violence and the Sacred?
Instead of killing her mom, she killed someone her mom really loves. And the victim was close enough to her mom that she could be also be a “subsitute”.
That’s what got me reading the book to begin with. I noticed the xP was substituting me for his mom. It was really subtle, but I could FEEL it somehow. The only clues he actually gave were that he told me I reminded him of his mom (he said it with a sweet smile) and then he wouldn’t let me go to his dad’s funeral.
The P’s are soooo weird.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 9:49pm
kim frederick says:
Sky, You have to remember that the whole premise of, Violence and the Sacrid is that evil is always essentially elsewhere. It is never in me. Also, there must always be rtetribution for human evil, hence the idea of sacrifice. The substitute victim is chosen because they are both the same, and different from the group they are saving.
I can see your point that you were a substitute for MIL, but I can’t see Casey as attributing evil to Caylee. Maybe to her mother. It’s more convoluted and complex, don’t you think?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:15pm
skylar says:
No Kim, the sacrificial victim must be pure and innocent. She doesn’t attribute evil to Caylee, she knows Caylee is innocent. Remember Jesus. Also, in some muslim cultures, if a man commits an offense, rather than killing him several elders will rape his sister. She usually will kill herself after that.
The sacrificial victim must not be guilty of any part of the crime because that would then lead to reciprocal violence. The victim has to be an “other” or at least someone who can’t take revenge or have someone take revenge for her.
The whole thing is really bizarre to me, but what’s even more bizarre is that the P’s (who mostly don’t do much reading or thinking at all) exhibit the behaviors/thinking process of a primitive society.
The truth is the book was very difficult for me to comprehend but I took lots of notes and I read lots of reviews to help me understand it better. I think part of the problem is that the guy is French and he takes forever to make his point. Plus, I have to admit that since I found out what the xP was, I have not been able to think. It’s like half my brain was cut off. When I read, I have to read each page about 5 times.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:38pm
kim frederick says:
Hey, you’re not alone. I found it to be very difficult reading. And yes, You’re right the victim must be pure, but it represents all the evil in the group.
This is really pretty fundamental. You see it on the play ground, in the workplace, in the family. Someone is scapegoated and it is agreed upon by the whole group. It’s tragic and twisted but it happens everyday.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:45pm
skylar says:
Kim you and I should write a book about sociopaths and how they function in regards to the Sacred. LOL. It will be called, “everything I ever needed to know, I learned from my sociopath”
GUARANTEED BEST SELLER.
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 10:57pm
skylar says:
OH! You mean the STORY! Yes I’m familiar with the story driven psychopath. They tell a story with so many details that they begin to believe it themselves. Often times they will create supportive evidence by recruiting friends who believe different parts of the story. When accumulated together, so many different people believing their own parts of the story, it becomes real to the psychopath and to the mark as well.
Frame control is such an esoteric term. Lets just use story.
Story is not complex. It’s like, when we used to believe the world was flat. EVERYONE believed it. there was all kinds of conclusive evidence. Based on that evidence, we could assume other things, like: you will fall off the edge of the earth if you sail too far. (gaslighting)
If you add enough details, supporting evidence and the faith of the true believers, you have a story that even the sociopath that made it up will believe. it’s all about the details.
But how can I add this to my book, “all I’ve ever needed to know I learned from my sociopath”?
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Thursday, 12 November 2009 @ 11:39pm
skylar says:
Yes, I get that is how the STORY method evolved. When I was a little girl, about 8 years old, it occured to me that I could lie to anyone very convincingly if I actually BELIEVED MY STORY. I had to have all the details worked out in my mind, and then it became true to me and everyone else. But at 8 years old, I also realized that ONE slip up. ONE detail that didn’t pan out would make me out into a liar FOREVER in the eyes of society. The p’s either don’t realize this or don’t care. My xP told me that he had checked out whether I had paid my electric bill or not. He said I had not. In FACT I did pay itl So now I have (further) evidence of his lies. FRAME CONTROL can go wrong with just one little slip. btw, his lies FELT VERY REAL. very very real, but the facts were different.
Again, can you give me some idea of how I can add this to my book, “all I’ve ever wanted to know I’ve learned from my sociopath’?
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:03am
skylar says:
This sociopath never did anything he didn’t like. He was so successful he had millionaires and billionaires giving him money and respect. His “jobs” were playtime. But still he seemed addicted to telling bigger and more audacious lies. He indulged in his need to manipulate. Reality got further and further away from him.
Where is that line? How does a sociopath determine when his soul has been traded away?
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:04am
kim frederick says:
what soul?
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 1:07am
tami says:
Goodness! These posts are SO good and right on!
Allow me to back up and finish the Biddy thing first…when I said I felt it was time to let her hit rock bottom…n/c is EXACTLY what I meant! Sorry, if I did not make myself clear. I’m tired of dealing with her and whoever said I couldn’t save her, you are SO correct! For her, there’s just too many dynamics involved. I’ve felt for quite some time that my communicating to her what I KNOW about my ex…her husband…has only served to assist him in improving his S behavior. He’s learned through what I’ve told her what his “weaknesses” were and has worked to perfect them. The LAST thing in the world I want to do is to HELP a S get better at what they do! I’ve planted the seeds in her head, referred her to LF, asked her to do her own research and expressed sincere concern for her wellbeing…that’s all I can do.
The classic behavior of the S will NEVER cease to amaze me. They believe themselves to be SO unique as individuals yet they’re all basically just alike! As I read the last posts of this thread, it took me back again. I can SO relate to everything that is being said. The always having to be the good guy. I, personally, referred to my own S as always appearing to be Mr. Nice Guy and anytime a situation called for what he perceived as “dirty work” although quite justified…he always made ME be the bad one! I later learned that he blamed EVERYTHING on me and used me as an excuse to serve his own purposes. Once, when he asked for a raise in wages, he told the boss that his wife (me) wouldn’t let him work for the wages he was being paid! LOL! Actually, he didn’t want to work to begin with so he was looking for an excuse to quit! He also used to asked me to call the somewhat stubborn members of his band to INSIST that they’d better show up for pratice! My adult stepson from a previous marriage once told me that he liked him but he said there’s something “not right” about him. He pondered his thoughts for a few moments and told me that he knew what it was. When I asked “what?”. He said, “he’s just too damn NICE…nobody is THAT nice!” My stepson had him pegged. Silly me, I just laughed it off and thought “lucky me! I’ve got the nicest husband in the world!”
BEAUTIFUL!!!! I heard how beautiful I was until I wanted to puke! And, no, he NEVER called me by name! It was always by a pet name. I remember that after he told me that he was leaving but yet continued to live at my house for 3 weeks after, he started to call me by my name IMMEDIATELY. And he said it with an icy coldness. He never slipped and called me “honey” or “baby” not even ONCE out of habit. That struck me as SO very odd. I think we all screw up and do that even when we’re going through breakups or divorces just out of sheer habit. But, not HIM!
Isn’t it so weird how they can turn their “sugary sweet love” that someone mentioned into pure hatred in a matter of seconds? But like Matt said about my former S, he was GOOD. Not once, in 8 years, did he slip with the love thing. He kept it up right up to the very instant that he decided he was DONE. I literally woke up one morning to the same old sugary sweet love talk from a man with a sparkle in his eyes who, in a matter of seconds, turned into an ice cold monster with totally dead eyes! It was like someone had flipped a switch off or possibly ON in him! Biddy flippantly says she’s seen that look. LOL! Oh no she HASN’T or she’d be gone! I’m almost 50 years old and I’ve seen a lot of strange things in my lifetime but witnessing his transformation was like a scene from a horror flick!
I really hate to admit it and by no means am I bragging (lol) but I honestly believe that I had one of the best sociopaths walking the face of the earth. I read somewhere that the S uses one of two things to control their victims…LOVE or FEAR. Mine used the total love thing with me. He KNEW the fear factor wouldn’t fly with me because I had told of my experience of being married to a violent alcoholic for nearly 15 years and how I would NEVER allow anyone to abuse me like that again. With Biddy, he goes from one extreme to another. She’s young and mouthy. I wasn’t…I detest arguing. She pushes him until he explodes on her…has flung her to the ground and choked her until she couldn’t breath…also smashed her windshield. He wouldn’t have DARED do any of these things to me simply because he knew that I would then be DONE and he wasn’t yet. She is filled with jealousy and perceives it as love. So, he plays the part well by displaying over dramatic jealous outbursts on her. He tried that a time or two with me and when I protested, that was the end of it because he saw it served no purpose for HIM.
I think for those of you who are still in the early stages of your healing, the BEST thing that you can do is to continue to be an active member of LF and research, research, research BEFORE you even consider entering another relationship. LF and my private counselor was my eye opener. Although I knew there was something terribly bizarre about my ex, I would have never figured out that he was a full blown S on my own. I don’t think as average people that we’re programmed to consider that any person we meet stands to be a sociopath! Our mommas didn’t teach us this and we didn’t learn it in school or in church! The general public seems to associate serial rapists and killers with the word “sociopath”. And, the sociopaths who don’t go that far are often referred to as players, losers, womanizers, ladies’ men, etc. I use the word MEN simply because I am a woman. I know their are women sociopaths amongst us, too.
The Anthony girl, for instance! Yes! I have always believed that she killed her little girl to spite her mother, too. And, I’d like to shake her mother or boink her in the head. Right away, I perceived Casey’s mother to be an extremely controlling woman and I believe that Casey feared her and hated her. I believe that the mother played a huge role in contributing to Casey’s S tendencies. However, I have no pity for Casey…only little Kaylee. I feel the reason Casey’s mother APPEARS to be in total denial when it comes to her daughter is because she KNOWS that she, herself, created a monster! I might even go as far to say that Casey witnessed her own mother giving the grandchild what seemed to be the love and attention that she herself needed as a child. I think the grandmother is every bit as twisted as Casey is! That’s just my honest opinion and the conclusion I reached when following the story. I feel that there is sometimes a genetic link where the S is concerned. I witnessed a lot of S behavior out of my ex’s mother and believe she played a huge role in his becoming one. And, NO, I don’t believe everything is ALWAYS the fault of the mother but in these two cases…YES!
Another thing regarding future relationships. I had to re-adjust myself to being loved by a NORMAL man. After 8 years of perceiving that I was on a pedastal and the most intelligent and beautiful woman in the world, and being showered with affection and sugary love talk, it felt as though the next man (my current husband) didn’t pay enough attention to me nor compliment me enough to REALLY love me! How twisted is that? The S can really mess with our minds. I found myself doubting that he loved me because he wasn’t all over me all the time or constantly feeding me candy. Thank goodness, I got a grip on things and started to observe his actions. He is a wonderful provider and totally responsible. He expresses a genuine concern for my wellbeing. He supports me in my interests as I do him. Everything is about US…and not all about HIM. I feel very fortunate to have escaped the hold of my ex S, and later find my true knight in shining armour. There is a light at the end of the tunnel and if we’re careful and use the knowledge that we learn here on LF, our next relationship will be our greatest reward for the suffering we endured at the hands of the S in our past. I hope that each and everyone of you find the happiness that I have found.
Okay…I’ve rambled on enough here…do I hear snoring? I’ve been having sleeping problems for months now and awake at 3:00 AM every morning so I get a little carried away when the rest of you are most likely still sleeping!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 5:13am
geminigirl says:
Ok, Sky, so your NOT EC. But you seem to “get off,”-like you get “high’ on playing silly mind games with these people. Its been said before, its like an alcoholic turning up drunk at an AA meeting. For most of us here on this site, NC has to be the only way forward, -the alternative is to be constantly sucked back in to the Ps lives,- their lies, pity parties, con tricks,”gaslighting”, most o ff us KNOW that this will throw us mentally and emotionally off balance, and back we go, on the same old merry -go -round.So, as hard as it is, we KNOW that NC works, and it enables us to have time and space and PEACE to lick our wounds, and to heal from these awful people.Engaging with them, thinking we are “winning” with them, trying to keep tabs on them, its all futile, as they NEVER CHANGE.Newbies to this site are going to be confused by whether or not NC isa GIVEN, and for most of us, it IS.
Why do you want to go on engaging with your P ex, and with this EC,{if in fact he isa troll or a P?Maybe he isnt.} But you seem to know a lot about him . How so?All that mental energy you are using trying to play “one up” with your horrible ex,could be better used in healing yourself, and offering a helping hand up to the poor bewidered and traumatised people on this site. I can hear from your posts that you are very clever and articulate person. But I think your misguided, thats all. And Ill go on giving people kisses, as theyre better than blows! Love, Gem.and {{HUGS}}}
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 5:14am
skylar says:
geminigirl, please stop judging me. I have never judged you. Why do you continue to do that to me?
Many people here are in contact with their xP’s in order to protect property or children. Mine left me with loads of debt and I want him to pay it – it’s a matter of survival. I’m not going to court with it or paying any attorneys because he would just hide his assets and become more vindictive. With my new method, I even got him to pay one of the bills he left me with.
Learning about how they think and what to expect is the only way I’ve managed as much as I have. He has stopped demanding money from me and now gives me little bits at a time when I demand it. I’ve learned that showing fear or hostility to the P’s doesn’t work. Those are the emotions that feed them. Instead, I make him feel good about himself and I make him laugh. That calms his hatred of me, stops him from plotting attacks and makes him want to prove how great he is. It’s very difficult to do this since he is in the depths of paranoia, but he has actually paid one bill and agreed to pay another very small one.
I have wondered what he poisoned me with and worried that it might have long term affects on my health. Finding out what he was using was important to me. Although I’m not positive, I think I’m getting closer to the truth. They like to brag and project, so the truth slips out once in a while.
He doesn’t trigger my emotions like your daughter does for you. I see him as so disordered and out of touch with reality, that it would be crazy for me react emotionally to him. He is simply a person that I deal with, like I would a customer, employee, teacher, boss or whatever. The disordered characters are everywhere, each one has to be dealt with a little differently, but fear and attacks are not EVER the most effective ways.
Geminigirl, If you feel that you cannot even look at your daughters facebook page without being triggered then NC is best for you because of your emotional reaction. You don’t need her to give you anything so it’s best for you to not see her. I commend you for that.
I don’t know anything about EC, I was only bantering with him the same as I do with Henry or Star or Kim. He was never rude and never attacked me and I never attacked him.
So you can go on giving people kisses, but I feel like you ARE giving me blows. Please stop.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 10:41am
style1 says:
Nassaugirl,
Yours and mine sound similar.
His last emails were rambling and weird.. and he was always talking about praying for me and love love love.. and when I would bring up reality .. he would say something like I didn’t really understand or I wasn’t looking at it correctly…
or that I have a vivid imagination.. and don’t trust or am negative.. and he just can’t be around negativity..
When all I was doing was pointing out the facts, the truth, the reality…
I was busting his dream bubble..
He was smoke and mirrors… and turned it back onto me..
He was so trying to set me up and I didn’t let him…
YaHA!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 12:41pm
nassaugirl says:
SKYLAR
Thank you! I appreciate your response. I can be a bit narsacistic sometime and I often have to check myself because ironically, yes as much as I HATE to admit,….I have alot of his traits!
Maybe that’s why I find myself attracted to people like him. Can you believe, he’s actually the SECOND psychopath I have had a relationship with!
Based on my research, my previous boyfriend was a SECONDARY PSYCHOPATH, and the one I just left is a
CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATH
CHARISMATIC PSYCHOPATHS — in one word, liars. They are irresistible, charming, believe their own lies, extremely persuasive, talented, and also have the ability to manipulate well. In fact, many leaders of doomsday cults (cults that drive their followers to their deaths, such as the Heaven’s Gate cult) were these types of psychopaths.
SECONDARY PSYCHOPATH, who may feel slight emotions of worry or guilt. These are avid risk-takers, exposing themselves to more stress and danger than the average person, who play by their own rules.
The other two types are:
DISTEMPERED psychopaths, who are the most prone to sudden outbursts of rage, with frenzy and rage resembling an epileptic fit. They have immensely strong sex drives, obsessing with sexual urges during their lives. They have also huge cravings, such as kleptomania or sadistic pedophilia, doing this almost solely for the “rush.”
and
PRIMARY psychopaths, who should be called emotional masochists. They won’t respond to stress, punishment, or disapproval. Another strong trait is that they don’t understand the meaning of words well, a condition called semantic aphasia. They have no life plan and are just breathing machines with no emotion, good or bad.
I know he’s going to see RED when he reads my last email …where I told him to RELAX. I suppose that was pretty stupid, but its done and I won’t do it again…:>)
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 3:27pm
notagain says:
NASSAGIRL
I think my ex falls into the primary psychopath ggroup. He does not in anyway, respond to stress, disapproval or punishment. He is irrationally optimistic.
He once admittted to observing my actions, to see how long it would take me to pick up a cup i had left on the counter, because he didnt believe that i made enough effort to keep the house clean. HE OBSERVED ME LIKE A SUBJECT IN A LAB.
But he is also charming, persuasive, very smart, too.
What bothered me so much, was that he could me a promise, then break that promise, and say he never said it, then i would get upset and yell at him. He would show no emotion whatsoever, jusy call me defensive and accuse me of attcking him for no good reason. He just accused me of trying to turn him into a patsy, in his last letter.
the only thing I wanted was for him to see….what he was doing to everyone who loved him. ITS USELESS!!! You could talk til you were blue in the face, and he couldntcomprehend.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 5:46pm
nassaugirl says:
NOTAGAIN,
I was actually FASINATED when I looked at the different types of sociopath and was able to put both my ex’s in two of the categories.
The one who was a SECONDARY psychopath is TRULY a classic!! He actually comes close to someone with a conscience, but he is TRULY an AVID risk-taker, he often got people to do stuff for him or give him contracts to do jobs that he was ill prepared to handle. … and has squandered thousands of dollars of his own money as well as other people’s money on business ventures and deals that all fell through. And he would never ever learn from his mistakes. He just kept making them over and over again!
He also had a very unrealistic goals. His business is failing, he has no money, but to this day, the guy is almost 50 yrs old, with 6 kids to take care of, the last one is only 5 and he’s still talking about retiring RICH in a few years.
Of course at his age his symptoms would have started to become reduce according to most text books….so he’s not as “distructive” as he used to be.
What I found interesting about him, is that he is EXTREMELY protective of his children and of the people that he “loves”… Everyone else could go to hell!! He deals with his kids like a mother hen, but while he’s doing that he can turn around in the same breath and beat the hell out of someone with a piece of wood if they just looked at him the wrong way. I assume he must see his kids and partners as his POSSESSIONS??
I guess the different types of sociopaths must cross over because I was fasinated when I read that PRIMARY PSYCHOPATHS has a strong trait in that that they don’t understand the meaning of words well, a condition called semantic aphasia. My ex displayed the symptoms of SECONDARY Psychopathy but he used to always ask me the meanings of SIMPLE words, which is a symptom of PRIMARY Psychopaths! I always wondered what the hell was that about……now I know!
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 7:10pm
style1 says:
Tami,
Mine was like yours also.. He had to be the ‘good guy’ the hero of the world.. and he constantly told me that he loved me.. Love love love.. and that I am beautiful… He called me beautiful more than my name… I got sick of hearing I love you.. and being told that I am beautiful… he was a charismatic …charmer.. spiritual freak.. trying to appear to be so good, so pious, so wonderful that his agenda was hidden…
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 8:00pm
notagain says:
there is something else, that Ive learned too.
People who hide things, do not go into a whole lot of detail. they do not get very deep about anything. People telling the truth, tend to talk alot, about detail, little things, and can even get nervous.
my P never has any detail about anything. He says he has this list of things that he sees wrong with me, but can’t tell me one. He says he is too good to tell me what he doesnt like about me. His letters are almost like robotic. Shallow, things he thinks I want to keep hearing. Things that have worked in the past when i was first getting to know him. Now they dont work anymore, and he is still using them, even though i had told him he has destroyed any chance of ever getting me back.
He accussed me of being “wordy” and said that I should have gone to school to be a lawyer….no way.
His emotinal grip that he had on me, is getting weaker and weaker….I am so thankful for that, because it has been three years worth of an emotional rollser coaster. Now he is just using the fact that he owes me alot of money, which I am sure I will never see, to keep trying to pull the door back open and keep at least one foot in.
another thing, is that he accused everyone else of making stories up about him. How can dozens of people, be lying, and only he tells the truth? And then I am stupdi for believing them, he says.
I’m just lad I fgound this site, because I would have never reallyfigured out what was happening.
I had always had a sense that something was missing in him, but could not put my finger on it. So it got turned around on me.
And ya, STYLE1, he always had tobe “percieved” as the hero, and if you called him on his behavior he would act victimized.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 8:22pm
geminigirl says:
Dear Sky, Im sorry if I came across as judging you, or giving you blows. That was not my intention. But you sometimes make me angry at the way you engage with obvious Ps, for fun,when its obvious they ARE Ps and assclowns.Someone mentioned on another thread that if you poke a snake for fun, dont be surprised if it turns on you and bites you.Im TRYING to get my head around your reason for still engaging with your exP partner.Its your affair. But I think it confuses newbies to this site you are still confused, hurting, and not sure what to do to start healing.Donna was right to get rid of the EC blogs. They did no good, and they stirred up a lot of hurt in people like Jill, who is doing so well, and has been thru so much pain.I think you are skating on very thin ice,– with heated blades!
And yes, I totally agree with you and Oxy, I have to stay NC with my P daughter, hard as it is.She was lovely little girl, but she is not that lovely girl now. I cant change her,and continually baling her out was not helping her in the long run, and certainly not helping me! Its got to be tough love fom now on. Ill try to respect your ideas on still maintaining contact with your ex P, but I still dont see the point in engaging in stupid mind games and power plays with obvious Ps.It doesnt help other people on this site. Love, gem.
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 8:49pm
style1 says:
The one who was a SECONDARY psychopath is TRULY a classic!! He actually comes close to someone with a conscience, but he is TRULY an AVID risk-taker, he often got people to do stuff for him or give him contracts to do jobs that he was ill prepared to handle. … and has squandered thousands of dollars of his own money as well as other people’s money on business ventures and deals that all fell through. And he would never ever learn from his mistakes. He just kept making them over and over again!
He also had a very unrealistic goals. His business is failing, he has no money, but to this day, the guy is almost 50 yrs old, with 6 kids to take care of, the last one is only 5 and he’s still talking about retiring RICH in a few years.
Of course at his age his symptoms …
MINE, TOO… he had all these BIG business deals that were going to make him over the top wealthy while he spent money like water..had kids under the age of 18 and owed tons in back child support and had bad credit.. but one of these business deals made possible by someone else’s money were going to make his day… I got so sick of hearing about it.. and he had no respect for what he did have.. he sold most all his property when he moved in with me.. and I asked don’t you want to keep some things.. no he says, things mean nothing to me.. well, I guess not, since I have a fully furnished house.. he didn’t think pas the moment..
now he is out of my house and doesn’t even have a bed.. until I guess he meets another woman with a house…
One clue is men that don’t have a house, furniture, etc.. then something is off…
And I have wondered.. like another post said when a man doesn’t tell me that I am beautiful every second with I think that he thinks I am attractive…
their distortions played into our life distort us…
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Friday, 13 November 2009 @ 10:00pm
Donna Andersen says:
Nassaugirl:
I’m curious about where you found the descriptions of different types of psychopaths. Can you post a link?
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:12am
Donna Andersen says:
Notagain,
You are right that some psychopaths are vague, but be aware that others tell extremely elaborate stories with all kinds of detail. So be careful – just because someone supplies details doesn’t mean he or she is telling the truth.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 10:15am
style1 says:
Yes, I find there are not diffinent consisitanties, in that.. mine read all the time and was a word master. He used words and his ’supposed’ superior intellect to lord over people. But he was stupid in ordinary areas.. a bad organizer of his life, compulsive in his actions and serious life decisions. He gave no thought to what he was doing to my life when he entered it. He only thought about himself and what I did for him while feigning all this love for me. He had nothing to offer me to enhance my life but his help around the house and he did do that and he did tell me that he loved me all the time and tell me how beautiful that I am.. on and on.. andwhat he was going to do for me when his ship came in.. I mean, what a line.. but meanwhile he lived in my house and I cooked him gourmet meals, and in infiltrated my existance and made him look good…
Were he still here he would still be doing this.. but he turned on me when I questioned and got tiredof his promises that never ocurred.. and could see that all his money went to his ex and kids… and there was nothing really for me or a future. It was all a wish and a prayer.. now, he did work hard so it made it seem possible.. but it was really like a lottery ticket. I was the ‘type’ of woman that he wanted so he created the image to attract me.. and he was good at it for awhile.. although I never really believed his spin. I had one foot in and one out.. I wondered why does he called me beautiful all the time.. he would watch me while I put make-up on.. I didn’t like the loss of privacy.. I felt envaded on all levels.. he knows no boundaries.. and that was my first clue.. how he behaved like I was just his because he claimed me as so.. it wasn’t about me.. it was about him… I think that they use the type of con that fits their image.
and mine was the highlin intelliecutal, spiritual, oh so wise guru that was going to make a ton of money in some magic way and be the hero of all who he loved..
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 11:22am
keensight says:
The point at which we recognize that we are being “hoovered”
is the point that we begin to see the value of no contact and what it will mean for our healing. That’s not to say that we’ve
come to an emotional understanding of what that entails.
When we reach the point of emotionally understanding that the
only way to save ourselves is by going NC, then we can start
the process of acceptance and begin to grieve authentically
what it is that we are letting go of and getting rid of in our lives.
Some of us held on to a cherished notion that “if only” we could fix these people, our world would be alright. That needs to be grieved thoroughly when we let it go. Why? Well, in one
sense, we have to understand at a “gut” level, that any fixing that needs to be done by us has to be done to ourselves, not
THEM. That is a big and painful step to achieving NC. And you can be sure they will try to Hoover you back in.
Learning to recognize this and accept the feelings it brings up when it’s happening again can start the immunization process
that allows us to really say no and let go. Wow, it really hurts
to thoroughly accept that you’ve been manipulated by important others in your life. You can never underestimate the impact of it when you finally allow it to sink in on every
level of awareness. Body, mind, emotions…the feeling is something like having the wind knocked out of you and trying to catch your breath or feeling like you’re going to fall down with no one to stop you from hitting the ground.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 3:11pm
nassaugirl says:
DONNA,
I really couldn’t find much information on the di