Regrets—we all have them
By Ox Drover
“The Road Not Taken” is always out there beckoning to us. I should, I could … Why did I do that? Why didn’t I do that? Regrets!
Having been involved with a psychopath, and reeling from the devastation in the wake of the relationship, leads us to ask ourselves what might have happened if we had made other choices.
I question myself—if I had chosen differently, would the relationship have been a success? If I had dated John or Frank instead of the psychopath, would I now be happily married in a solid relationship? If I had just done things differently, like I started to, would it have been better? If I had just gotten out of the relationship sooner, or later, would I now be better off?
With our regrets, we beat ourselves up for being so stupid to put up with the abuse. We saw the red flags of suspicion early on, felt the sting and pain of his words, his disrespect, yet, now we regret not paying attention to ourselves back then. How much better our lives would have been if we had only listened to our own intuition, to the things we really knew, really saw, but brushed aside, thought we could fix.
We searched for the words, the perfect words, to explain to him how he was hurting us. Why couldn’t we find those perfect words, the ones we were so sure would make him treat us better?
Regret is normal
Regret in the past choices we have made in life: Go to work and get married, or go to college and get an education. Have children, or wait. According to those who study regrets, having regrets as we mature is a normal, natural and a universal human emotion. Neal Roese, Ph.D., a psychology professor at the University of Illinois says, “Regret is a very complicated emotion that involves all these things (pain and fear) coming together—it’s raw feeling plus all the complicated imaginings of future possibility.”
Another psychology professor, Carsten Wrosch, Ph. D., at Concordia University in Montreal, has linked regrets to many physical and social problems, which include sleeping problems, headaches, migraines, panic disorder and even skin conditions.
Henry David Thoreau said, “To regret deeply is to live afresh.”
Letting go
If we continually dwell on our past mistakes and missed opportunities, this consumes our ability to live and enjoy the present. Letting go of regrets though, is not a one-time event; it is a process of disentangling ourselves from them.
One of the ways suggested to start to let go of our regrets over past decisions is to consider it final. I find that when I have a decision to make, once I finally decide that decision is final, anxiety about making that decision seems to go away. Looking at that decision later, whether it turned out to be good or bad, I am more able to accept it.
People who study regrets and decision making also note that if we can “fix” a past mistake or correct it, our regrets tend to hang on longer and be stronger, but if we accept the fact that we made a bad decision that can’t be fixed, we tend to let go of it more easily.
Having regrets for past decisions, and especially regrets related to our relationship with the psychopath(s) in our lives, is normal and natural. As long as we hang on to those regrets and try to second guess ourselves, though, it impedes our healing and moving on.
Letting go of those regrets, the self-recrimination for our part in the relationship, for not finding the perfect solution, for not leaving sooner, or any of a thousand other choices we made, will be an ongoing process. But it will lead us, if we let it, to using those choices to make a better life for ourselves now and in the future.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
style1 says:
I think mine ran its course.. My thinking back is my awareness to see what really and actually occurred .. and why I got caught up in his spin. I don’t have regrets in the things that I did or didn’t do. Nothing about me caused him to be so delusional. I tried to talk to him about reality and that is when it began to fall apart. And this was good for me not bad. Regrets… umm.. I am just stunned about how I got so in his web… when there were so many signs that he was not what I wanted.. why I overlooked the obvious.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 2:15pm
justabouthealed says:
Great post Oxy. You wrote “Having regrets for past decisions, and especially regrets related to our relationship with the psychopath(s) in our lives, is normal and natural.”
Well, two of the people I know who have told me they have NO regrets are both pretty far gone on the psychopath scale of traits.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 3:18pm
style1 says:
I regret that he didn’t or couldn’t see my side to things. But that should be his regret not mine.
I regret falling for his spin.. that is what I did… I for a time, believed him… reality and signs to the contrast. I regret believing him and not myself, pulling back more in the beginning. Had I, it would’ve been exposed and fallen apart faster. I regret giving him the benefit of the doubt when he gave me little to none.. if I did something that he didn’t like or that didn’t fit into his agenda. I regret that I wasn’t as sophisticated and aware as I thought that I was.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 3:49pm
libelle says:
Dear Oxy, thank you so much for yet another great post! It was very comforting, specially the following:
“People who study regrets and decision making also note that if we can “fix” a past mistake or correct it, our regrets tend to hang on longer and be stronger, but if we accept the fact that we made a bad decision that can’t be fixed, we tend to let go of it more easily”.
I am full of “To do lists” of self imposed “past mistakes”, some dating back from my childhood, some fairly fresh, to “fix” them. I will have to weed these lists out. Do some “deep-soul-cleansing”. Thanks for the reminder! I regret of having “wept over spilled milk” for so long! ((((Hugs))))
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:19pm
amber says:
I’ve always said that I don’t have regrets. That everything happens for a reason and I should learn from it. Well, in this situatuon, I regret not standing up for myself sooner. I regret ignoring the signs that were there slapping me in the face every day! About 2 months into the relationship, I found out he was married with kids by reading an article about him. I remember that first time feeling the burning in the pit of my stomach, completely turned me inside out..it was going to be a reoccurring feeling for the next 4 years. But I went out to dinner with him that night and asked politely for him to explain. I regret going to that dinner and allowing him to lie to me. Maybe if I would have never answered his phone call after I read that article, I wouldn’t have wasted 4 years of my life with him. But I’m learning that from this day on red flags will not be ignored, and the second you lie…Don’t expect for me to hang around long enough for you lie to me again.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:38pm
ErinBrock says:
Yeah Amber!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:15pm
OxDrover says:
Thank you for your kind words.
Letting go of the regrets for “the roads not taken” has been a difficult process for me, but I am slowly getting there. My head is pretty flat from all the BOINKS I have laid upon it with my BIG cast iron skillet!@ I have beaten my skull into fragments more than once pounding on myself with the regrets, but now that I am letting go of those past choices it is much easier to make progress in the healing. As long as I hung on to those regrets, those self recriminations, I didn’t make much progress toward doing better.
The positive choice to let go of the regrets, to forgive myself for my past choices, made today’s choices easier!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:42pm
skylar says:
I see you point Oxy, the regrets do hold us back if we dwell on them and punish ourselves with them.
On the other hand, they can be lessons that propel us to make different choices. Sometimes the hardest lessons have the most profound effects. We don’t want to be like the P’s who cannot learn from their mistakes because they won’t even acknowledge them. They are like children who are perpetually held back in the first grade. They like playing the same games over and over because that is what they know. This way they can always be the smartest in the class – of first graders. LOL.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:13pm
geminigirl says:
A great post,,Oxy. and very timely for me! I still tend as we all seem to, to “beat myself up” over mistakes, and i have to learn to forgive myself and move on. I know now it was stupid for looking at my daughters pics on facebook,it was NOT a good idea, as its like picking a scab thats not healed over. Also, I was even more upset, as she now has my other daughter on facebook, and there wasa picture of her. As I havent seen her or even a pic ture of her in nearly 17 years, I cant tell you how upset this made me. She still looks beautiful,{she is the one living with the rich Jewish boy, with his 3 kids by her}. But her eyes look so sad.and she looks mentally disturbed to me. Obviously all that money isnt making her happy. I still dont know why she cut me off, but I guess if she is also a S. this is what they do.
All I can do is pray for her, and remember what a sweet cuddly {but even then manipulative!} child she was. Time to close that door, and move on. My Iranian kids are coming over for lunch tomorrow, -I confided in Roya today on th ephone re my P daughter,and they are coming over to hug and comfort me. Im learning to ask for help now, I cant do it alone! And my husband is sick of hearing about the whole thing. Onwards and upwards! Its all part of “accepting the things we cannot change”.Thanks again Oxy, and all of you!! and {{HUGS!!}}} gem.XX
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:37pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
I know it hurts, and to wonder “why” makes it hurt more as well, but ACCEPTING it as FINAL, and to quit beating yourself up over the past is a step forward.
Accepting the things we cannot change, that we do NOT have control over is a big part of the healing process. When we feell that we “should’a” or “could’a” done something different to have a different outcome, we stay stuck in that past decision. We stand there beating ourselves over the head about something we can not go back and change now.
I can say “I should have done X” but you know, in the end, we really don’t KNOW that doing X would have made things better or worse—I can also look back and say that if my P son had come home (after his first term in prison) that I might very well be dead, and have been dead for a LONG time now. So we can’t second guess the past. We CAN accept the present and make the very best of it that we can.
Lily is still not answering her phone, so I don’t know how she is doing. I keep praying for her that whatever her physical situation is that she is at PEACE. Even if that peace means she thinks her children care for her. She is so physically ill now that whatever peace she can get I think is so important.
I think it is so important that we can heal emotionally while we are physcally in pretty good shape, so that we don’t let our emotional pain drag us down physically and vice versa.
I iimagine it is hard for David to understand the full level of pain you have had from your daughters, no matter how much he loves you, but I think you know that the people here on LF have a pretty good idea of what you have gone through. My hugs and prayers for you sweet, Gem!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:59pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest Oxy, thank you so much! Im OK today! Looking forward to seeing my new “KIDs” tomorrow.God is so good to me to give me a brand new set of adult kids! Its a bit like the story of Job, he lost everything, but God gave him back everything he lost, his health, his wealth, his livestock, a new wife and a new set of Kids!! And 7 fold what he had before!
{i presume he got a new wife, his old one sounded like a P! “Curse god and die! what kind of encouragement is that?} I hope he left her, or she died, LOL!!
Thanks again dearest OXY!! and Love, Gem.XX
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:14pm
OxDrover says:
Well, Gem, if she wasn’t a new wife, she at least had to have 10 more kids! LOL That in itself (another ten pregnancies) was a pretty big punishment to my way of thinking! LOL
I know what you mean though, I feel that way about my adopted son, D…God gave him to me to replace the son I lost and he is a jewel of high price! I literally owe my life to him!
I am glad that you have your new family of love! Because that is what FAMILY is all about—LOVE—not blood.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:04pm
ann1961 says:
This post hits home. I find myself frequently wondering “what would my life be like now if I had married a long term boyfriend I had in highschool?” I know it would be better, the boyfriend had so much character and was a good person. The guy I chose to marry seemed so much like my brothers and ‘fit’ so well with my dysfunctional family. THAT is my biggest regret in my life, marrying someone who even set the red flags off when we were dating, and I STILL married him!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:41pm
nic says:
Great article. I regret everything with the S and I have to stop it. Everyone please wish me luck. I am going to try and petition the court for my ex to have supervised visits with our 3 year old. I heard it is very hard though to do.
I am trying to get my argument together. He is inconsistent. He has received 2 DUI’s. I don’t know where he lives and with whom. He doesn’t use common sense. She has asthma but and has been to the er but he doesn’t care.
There is so much physical, sexual and emotional abuse in the world that I am just scared. Why do I have to wait until something happens. I believe he is living with his mistress and 4 kids ranging in ages from 2-13. There are cruel kids in the world and I don’t know how her kids are. I don’t even know who she is but judging by her character from having a child with my husband during the marriage she is a low life scumbag.
He is supposed to get our daughter tomorrow but I don’t want her to go. It is halloween and he “doesn’t celebrate” it. I want my daughter to enjoy it. Plus lately this may seem far off but I have been thinking about the flu and swine flu. My ex is so stupid and dumb that if one of those kids had it he wouldn’t care to subject my child to it. He wouldn’t use common sense and not have his daughter around it. One day it was freezing cold and he didn’t know her coat was in her backpack. He brought her home at night with no coat and I was mad. He said “what”. I grabbed her and slammed the door in his face. Any other reasonable person would have given her a sweater and just rolled up the sleeves.
I can’t stand my ex and I want him out of our life. It has taken me awhile to realize it but I now know. He is not a good person and he can’t help it.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:48pm
shabbychic says:
Thank you for this post, very timely for me as this is something that is causing me a lot of pain.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:03pm
henry says:
Oxy – Very well said! I almost want to puke when I say this, but here goes. I guess (HE) was what it took to wake me up, to make me respect myself, to make me see my flaws, to make me untangle the mess. The one thing I have not been able to overcome or stop thinking about is ‘ maybe he is happy now and really in love and in a good relationship’ and I was at fault. But I would never in a million years want to live with such evil again.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:28am
Isabell says:
henry,
(HE) is never really in love. (HE) has always been an illusion, and will continue to be an illusion, no matter what appearence of happiness is portrayed. With this in mind, (HE) will never be in a good relationship.
You, are at fault for nothing.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:41am
heavenbound says:
I second what Isabell says. Amen to that!
Of course I have a problem with shaking the thought that the p is now happy and all too so I understandingly and gently say Oxy needs to chase you (henry) down with the skillet! Not me though this is about you and your thoughts! Love, hugs, and prayers!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:57am
Isabell says:
nic,
Be extremely careful in how you present your concerns. Read up on Parental Alienation Syndrom. If the court percieves you as wanting to punish your ex, control and alienate his relationship as a parent, embarrass and humiliate him through supervised visits, etc., YOU will lose custody.
Focus on your concern for the best interest of your child, as it relates to the unsafe choices your ex has made resulting in him getting 2 DUI’s. This is a real safety concern. Now, if the DUI’s were 10 years ago, and has had a spotless record since. If you have no evidence that he’s a heavy drinker, you will be perceived of attempting to alienate him from your child’s life.
Leave your concerns about the things you fear could happen, as well as your worries about cruel children, and the fact that your child didn’t have a coat on, etc….at home. If you have no proof of abusive behavior, you cannot speculate that their will be abusive behavior. And, trying to cut the father out of the child’s life, just because he is a jerk, and you realize this now, will serve to discredit YOU in court. It sucks, I know. The system is perverted, in my opinion. But it is, what it is, and you must learn to function within the system.
One last thing… DON’T EVER express directly, or indirectly that you want him out of your children’s lives. To do so is a guaruntee that it will be YOU that is legally cut out of your child’s life.
Focus on the real and factual danger, the DUI’s; especially if he received them, when your child was with him. This is considered child endangerment. Make sure you have documented proof of whatever it is you are going to present as your argument to the court. If you don’t have facutal, reliable, credible proof of what you are alledging, you could be setting yourself up.
Be wise, my dear… Be very wise.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:01am
geminigirl says:
Its wierd.,if they really{narcs and Ps } cant help the way they behave,its tempting to feel a tiny bit sorry for them, like the are wired all wrong, have something missing in their DNA, wiring, whatever. But its not something like colour blindness, or being tone deaf.They are malignant, psychotic, dangerous, treacherous, envious. I mean if a blind person bumped into you, they say” sorry,I didnt mean to hurt you, I just cant see you.”Are Ps blind like that? Or are they deliberately mean, hateful scheming, treacherous? Or are they just blind?A friend of mind said of my daughter,{then aged about 13,} “Theres something wrong with her. I cant place it, but shes emotionally flat.” I was offended at the time ,but she was right. Even my daughters ex said years ago, when he was playing around with the kids, and she was looking on, blank face. he said,”Its called fun, Deb!!”And one day when Holly, then 3, and I were scuffing in the Autumn {Fall} leaves, looking for pixies, her Mum said,”Come on, Holly!” “Mummy, Granny and I are looking for fairies!” D .just glared at her, and yanked her away.Of course, she would never be able to play pretend with her little girl, all she saw were leaves. Its sad, but the only thing that helps me feel not too sorry for her,is,if shes emotionally flat, presumably shes not capable of feeling acute emotional suffering and pain. I really hope this is true, as shes still my daughter and i dont want her to suffer. I should,but I dont. I feel sorry for her, but sorrier for me for being suckerd by her for 30 years! No longer, God give me strength!Love gem,XX
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:04am
Isabell says:
geminigirl…
In my world, and my children’s world… scuffing looking for pixie fairies is equal to heavenly promises. Pure joy.
Emotionally flat, is scary. And, must be heartbreaking for you.
I have no advice, wisdom, or anything of value to add, other then..I’m so sorry.
Warm hugs to you…
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:27am
Stayingsane says:
OxDrover
I know my energy is suddenly taken up with concern about the law, cases on TV, how to spot them, how to heal from them…how to educate myself about them having had first hand experience of one. I am trusting I need to do this for now and that it is ok for now.
How I will ever trust a man again is right now beyond me. I don’t even aspire to it anymore. I have discovered I can’t even go on a date….so serious regret operating here.
I have a good amount of No contact time (4 months) and he is not coming after me (he has everything, I do not have anything he wants) the threat of court is hanging over him, but I won’t do it because I refuse to give him another ounce of my life.
day by day a little more of me is returning, and your article helps me locate myself in this journey of recovery we are all on or about to go on, We are not alone. Thank God I’m not alone. I hold on to the hope of new life some day but at 50 it seems unrealistic..anyone out there find new love after psychopath age 50 plus?
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:43am
skylar says:
Stayingsane,
I hear it’s possible at any age. I guess it all depends on us, and how we interact with the world.
We each might have the dream of a perfect man, but we know that he doesn’t exist. first, who are we to judge what or who is perfect for us – we are only just getting to know ourselves. And second, the people we meet add to who we are and to our growth.
So get out there and meet guys and have fun. Don’t look for the guy that meets all your criteria because those can change as you grow and change. Just watch out for the guy with the red flags. And report back to LF so we can put him through the vetting process.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:51am
kim frederick says:
My regrets go all the way back to about the age of 12. I can see how the choices I made then, all led up, one by one to where I am now. However, I have to accept that this wasthelife I chose,and it hasn’t been all bad. Ihave had 3 serious relationships with meninmy 50 years, and I am convinced that all three were disordered in one wayor another.Mygreatest heartache, and frustration inlife has sprung from these relationships. I am aware that I must be accountable (in some way) for choosing these men, and look deeply into myself for the reasons.
I can honestly say that I have lost faith in men, relationships and my ability to find and maintain a healthy one. It’s kind of sad, but it’s better than the alternative. Someone said something about feeling like damaged goods, and that’s what I feel like when it comes to intimate relationships.
I’m not totally unhappy, though. I feel like I’ve finally resigned myself to it. I guess it’s like Oxy said, if you think there’s still something you can do to fix it, it makes the regret deeper and longer lasting.
This weekend is what we call Florida-Georgia weekend down here, and I have memories of really fun times with the xp, 7 years worth. Lotsof drinking, patying with friends, cook outs, beautiful fall weather, so I’m feeling a little nostalgic.
I’m beginning to see myself as very eccentric these days. I’m learning how to knit, and I managed to finish a blue and orange gator sweater for my beloved tabby cat, PInky-doodle, just in time for the game. Of course it’s close to 80 degrees today, and he hates the sweater, but I took some pictures of him in it….Very cute.
I can tell you, though, this is not how I imagined my life at age 50. I may well be destined to be the rather odd cat lady who sits and rocks and knits…………..and to think I was so damn hot. LOL.
Thanks for the article, Oxy, and thanks all of LF for being here. Love.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:34am
ErinBrock says:
Hey KIM…..
Anywhere near Palm B.?
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Guys,
Thanks for your comments, I always enjoy the different takes on an article that different people have, and how it may ring a different chime-note in different people who are in different stages of healing.
Stayingsane, the feeling you have about wanting a relationship after 50 and wondering if it can even be DONE is one that I had for sure, and I got a “relationSHIT” at 58 because I was needy and fearful of being “alone” so was vulnerable to a P.
Sure I WOULD love to have a good relationship now, but you know I know that I DO NOT NEED ONE to have a happy and successful life. That attitude change for me is profound and so when I got the invitation a while back for a “date” I went, had fun, but didn’t look it as my “salvation” I was no longer needy, and this past week he called back and I saw a RED FLAG, so X’d him off my list as even a possible “date” without the slightest bit of regret.
The “regrets” I had of the decisions made in the past, like not marrying “John” instead of “Sam” because you know, If I HAD marriied “John” I do NOT know how that would have turned out, I only IMAGINE I do! So I give up that “regret” of not taking the OTHER ROAD than the one I did because none of us truly KNOW where that road would have eventually led.
We might not even be alive if we had taken that other road.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 11:00am
nic says:
Isabel, thanks for your comments. My case is in no way parental alienation and custody will never be taken away from me but I appreciate your concern.
I told my ex that I will give him a 15 minute grace period in picking up our child. Well, he is more than 30 minutes late each time and I still let him take her. He was 3 hours late 2 weeks ago and I still let him come. So I am doing everything in my power to let him see her. Yes, he is in control.
Well, today he was supposed to come at 10 and I have not heard from him and it is 12:30. I don’t expect to hear from him. That is my issue. Him not coming when he is supposed to but I am supposed to be available whenever he is ready. I can’t just go to his house because I don’t know where he lives but he can come to my house.
It is so ridiculous. I am just going to enjoy being with my child and know that she is safe with me. He does not care about her and that is evident.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:29pm
Easy says:
Nic
I would hold it to the time specified! Not a minit over! The Control issue is not a wepon! If your not there on time than sorry about your luck! It is a child not a pet! Hold him to exact times or he still controls you like a object! Late ? take me to court and argue why you are late! Do not relinqueish control to the P . Don’t play their game!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:48pm
justabouthealed says:
Stayingsane
Congrats on the four months of NC! That is huge!
But not so huge that you’ve had time to regain your trust, of course. I think where you are right now sounds like just where you need to be and should be. You are making progress and getting your own life! Get your red flag detector in excellent shape. I got involved with a P at at 56. So watch out! Life is not over at 50. What were you doing 20 years ago? Think of all that has happened since. You (knock on wood) easily have 20-30 or maybe even 40 years of life ahead. May be the best years yet, with or without a man!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:06pm
Stayingsane says:
Thanks all. Everything taken on board. So grateful for you guys. I am okay to be at this stage. Interesting to note life is not over at 50, even though my faith in men is…. just for today.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 6:06pm
ErinBrock says:
Stayingsane:
Life begins at 50……..you go girl!!!!
Keep on keeping on!!!
Your doing great!!!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 6:15pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Nic,
Iam with Easy on this one. Next time, notify him that it is ON TIME OR NO TIME—-Late? well, don’t bother coming. Late returning her? then that much time off your next visit.
YOU take control back from him. YOU CAN DO IT!
Remember back when he wasn’t putting her in a car seat? You know he doesn’t care about you or her—so if he doesn’t show up on TIME, put the kidlett in a car seat and LEAVE—DON’T BE THERE WHEN HE COMES. Make sure, too, that you have a WITNESS as to what time you left and that it was AFTER he should have been there. A few times of that and he will either quit coming or be on time, now wouldn’t that break your ehart if he quit coming. LOL Love Oxy
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 11:40pm
keensight says:
Hi OxDrover,
Your post about regret is a poignant one. How different we would do things over if we’d the chance to… blessed with the knowledge that we’ve had bestowed upon us. Regret will always be painful and deep when we have given so much to
those who were unworthy of the gifts.
Much of what happens to us, unfortunately, occurs due to the programming and roles we were assigned in our families of origin. Unspoken rules and roles from that time shape our choices in ways we are likely to deny vehemently, until alas,
the pain of continuing to relate in those old ways is too much to bear. The impetus to change ourselves lies within that pain
and regret. The urgency of the need to do so becomes apparent when the old ways of relating just don’t work any more.
Unfortunately for us, the old ways of relating meant “taking low” almost all of the time from those who didn’t appreciate us. Whether we gave a great deal or not no longer is the greatest sadness, but that we’ve allowed it to go on for so long.
Life teaches us some very harsh lessons to be sure. Looked at
from a spiritual (not religious) perspective, we can all find very personal meaning as to why certain things have happened in our lives. Each of us knows in a very personal way that we are working on certain themes that keep repeating over and over until they get our attention. The circumstances and the people may change throughout our lives, but we know the things we are here to work on in this life.
I believe that in this way we are making a contribution to
anyone we relate to in our own sphere of influence in a healthy, loving way. HEALTHY self regard doesn’t come cheap
when it has to be learned in adulthood. It’s a gift your parents
are supposed to model for you growing up. Most of us know
the pain of strugggling to learn positive self regard in the face of abuse. Once attained it can never be lost again.
There is so much to learn in this life. Wondering how life would have been had we chosen the other and if it would have been better is a natural reaction to what is unfair.
A great deal of our growth has come through the very people
that have pushed and stretched us to our limits to understand
them. Sociopathic behavior, no longer being a riddle, allows
us our freedom to move forward and explore who WE are.
What good is sharing warmth and a sense of relatedness with
those who don’t understand, value or even recognize what we’re holding in our hands and hearts extended to them?
Better to take the gift of knowledge and use it to heal.
Much of what I’ve read here has provoked a great deal of thinking on my part. My mind keeps going over the themes
involved.
The film adaptation of the book The Colour Purple by Alice Walker keeps flooding my mind. It is resonant with so many of themes that are universal in the struggle for selfhood and healing. The first time I viewed it I was floored at how deeply Celie’s plight touched me. Each one of the characters in the film has something to say about unhealthy relating and its damaging effects that ripple outward upon all they touch.
It’s also a story of love and hope and compassion. It’s a story
about healing and faith most of all through the most painful of
circumstances.
Ultimately, Celie finds a sense of inner peace and acceptance
of what her life has evolved into. So much of what she endured early on was out of her control. The same applies to many of us. Along the way, she, as well as we ourselves, have had kind and not so kind teachers. Some of them modeling truly cruel behavior and others awakening in her the awareness of her own unique beauty as a human being; bringing her the gift of real regard and relatedness.
I believe at the end of the journey the goal is to truly love
and value ourselves. Regardlesss of the amount of struggle and pain life brings, there will always be those who touch us and fill our lives, even in the midst of despair brought about by uncontrollable situations and people who have run amok in our lives.
I’m wishing that for all of us as well.
Peace
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 1:21am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, thanks for a very provoking post. And one that is comforting to those of us who are still beating ourselves up.
Regret is one of those words that we define differently, or maybe feel differently depending on where we are in our lives or our healing. I know that when I first started to recover from this relationship, I was brutally beating myself up, thinking that I was “just too stupid to live.” And at the time, I would have said that I was drowning in regret.
But that is not how I define regret now. Now, more often, I look back and see things in my life that I would have done differently if I’d known then what I know now. At the time, I was doing the best I could with the needs and the level of maturity I had. But going back now to look at some of these past experiences — ones that caused me a lot of pain, or ones in which I made mistakes that caused other people pain — they seem more like lessons than anything else.
I had a minister who used to pray, “God, I know that you’re sending me a lesson here. And I’m willing to learn. So if you don’t mind, could you just please hurry up and let me know what I’m supposed to be learning?”
I mentioned last week that I was thinking writing a post about guilt, because I think it’s such a big factor in our lives, and largely unrecognized (because like shame, it’s so uncomfortable, we push it to the background). I had a major collision a few weeks ago with a ton of guilt I’ve been carrying around for decades, and avoiding thinking about. I discovered that some children I took care of when I was in my mid-twenties, while their mother essentially abandoned them to travel around with a new boyfriend, had not done well when they grew up. One of them is dead now from an overdose.
I supported them and their father for two years, and I ultimately had to leave, because I just couldn’t bear the burden anymore. It’s hard to talk about this even now, because I knew that it was going to be just one more blow for these youngsters. And I loved them.
The guilt I felt when I got these information just whacked me with what some people might call regrets. But I would call guilt. And it took me a while to sort it out. But eventually I did. There were a lot of circumstances around that involvement. It began only a few months after I was widowed by my second husband, and it was an escape for me from grief. I had no boundaries in those days at all, and no sense of what I could manage with any concern for my own wellbeing. And though I did my best to fix it, the entire situation was bigger than me. No matter what I did, it was actually caused by people who were deep in their own dramas and who would continue to destroy any stability or emotional security those kids had.
For me, the learning in that situation — now more than 35 years later — was that there are tragedies around us. People we love may be involved in them, as we may be too. And no one, however well intentioned, can control everything. Sometimes, we just have to embrace hard realities, and not stop loving, but also recognize that we have to take care of ourselves. Because if we turn into human sacrifices, then we have nothing to give.
So I grieve what happened, grieve the loss of the little girl I loved and the difficulties her brother still faces, continue to love them across time, and comfort myself with the idea that we all did the best we could.
As far as not biting off more than I could chew, I learned that lesson at the time. It was a hard lesson, and I occasionally forgot it in later years. But it was pretty well learned because it was so painful, as all of us here are learning from our experiences with the sociopaths.
So this for me, is what regrets are really. Just a look back to recognize something I would do differently now, but not be sorry. Because I can’t be. It was the story that brought me to where I am today. To a great degree, I caused these stories for myself, as I did the one with the children by volunteering to become so deeply involved with their lives. From my perspective today, I caused my story with the sociopath too, by wanting what he had to offer. And that was caused by other stories I volunteered for, which all emerged from patterns set up in a very dysfunctional childhood.
Oxy mentioned regrets about roads not taken, and I can probably relate to that more than anything. I feel like I wasted so much of my life struggling with the dysfunction I carried from my childhood. But even that was my story. I took the roads I did, because they were the ones that were most meaningful to my development. I believe that. And I could wish that I had a different childhood, or wish my parents had different childhoods, or wish that the whole culture wasn’t so fear-driven and addiction-ridden, but what’s the point?
Ultimately the big challenge of life is to love ourselves and to learn to use what we have. Whatever it is. Regrets are important, because they hold learning inside of them. But if they cause us guilt or shame, then maybe we need to work on forgiving ourselves for being human. Oxy wrote that in an earlier post, and I always thought that was a great way to say it.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 2:42am
skylar says:
This is a great thread with so many thought-provoking comments, thanks for starting it Oxy.
keensight, you said, “Sociopathic behavior, no longer being a riddle, allows us our freedom to move forward and explore who WE are.”
That should be a quote on everyone’s refrigerator or maybe make a bumper sticker. That wisdom is profound because, understanding sociopathic thinking has opened up an entirely new perspective on my world – like nothing I would have imagined.
Kathy, I’m sorry to hear of your loss. I understand that you regret that you couldn’t do more, but you did the best you were able to at the time. You said you had taken on more than you could chew. Those words describe us all, when we were small children being abused by adults. In our child minds we focused on a strategy that would help us cope, but most of the time, the strategy was flawed. How could it be otherwise? we were only children. Now that we’ve grown up, we are learning to release that strategy so that a new one can be found. Unlike the P’s, we aren’t stuck in the perpetual childhood that keeps us repeating the same evil deeds over and over as vengence for what happened to us.
Maybe that’s the meaning of forgiveness: finding a new strategy.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 9:47am
OxDrover says:
Dear Keeninsight, thank you for your response, very thought provoking.
kathy, thank you for your response too—and also thought provoking.
That is the thing I love about an article like this, is that so many people see different things, meanings, etc. in the same words. Our words in any language are poor conveyors of FEELINGS and how each of us sees something a little different in a word such as “regret” or “guilt” or “love” and how our lives are impacted by it.
Those differences are wonderful because they EXPAND our lthoughts and though each of us is unique, yet were are also alike in so many ways.
The spiritual aspect to healing is I think such an important one (separate and apart from religious views or thoughts) I believe mankind is a “spiritual” being because we can analyze our motives and feelings as I think other mammals are not able to, and I think one of the things that is different about us and the personality disordered is the “spiritual aspect.”
This is just observation on my part, but though I know Ps that at least pretend to be religious, I do not know any that show any spritual insight, it seems beyond them. Who knows, maybe that consciebnce or lack of it is what “spirituality” is all about.
Sure, our “raisin’” influences what we think is right and wrong, or what we think we “should” or “should not” do or expect, but at the same time, we are independently able to analyze these beliefs (if we will) and see that they are or are not VALID. You may have been raised by a family that taught you prejudice against other people, but as an adult you can either continue to accept this belief, or examine it and say “that is not true in light of what I observe” and discard that belief. We ARE able to “reprogram” our belief ssystems that were “fed to us” as children. Earlier on we may have acted on those beliefs, and AT THAT time we believed them, but we have the power to de-program those beliefs, to install new beliefs, and new conceptions of truth, and while we may look back and say “I did so-and-so, but at the time I was acting on xyz belief, now I no longer hold that belief as valid, so I will no longer act on that” We are FREE moral agents, and I think that is what a good manyy of us are doing here, is to examine our “truths” and see if indeed they ARE true, or if they are “contamination” from our families of origin, or from our culture etc. i.e. we are spiritual beings on an eartly journey and we have self determination and are NOT predestined by our past to live our future by a set of codes (guiltly feelings, or remorse, etc) that someone else installed in our heads. Just learning that we CAN reprogram ourselves, that we are so powerful and able to alter our internal landscape if not the extermal one. I can’t alter the external land scape that I am a 62 (almost 63) year old white female who grew up in rural America, but I CAN alter the internal land scape of that woman, and I am working dililgently to do so. Looking back and saying that I regret that I didn’t do things differently in the past doesn’t do anything except make me feel bad about where I am today.
I SHOULD have listened and not baked myself in the African sun, I woujldn’t have these liver spots on my face or near so many wrinkles, but I can’t go back and unwalk the path I walked when I was 19 or 20, or retroactively put sun screen on. But I will wear sun screen and a hat today to keep from making them worse or turning them into cancer. But, I am NOT going to continue to beat myself up because 40 years ago I did something dumb!
I agree that “forgiveness” is not about the person who did an unkind deed, but for ourselves, to get the bitterness out of our own souls jso that we can move forward away from that event, and not continue to keep it as CURRENT pain. That means forgiving others deeds, but also our own mistakes and bad deeds.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 1:02pm
persephone7 says:
Keensight, I loved your post, you expressed what we all feel – in a gentle way. The sociopathic riddle is one I’ll never truly understand, it bleeds into
what I wanted to understand and make into ‘normal.’ I know I’m entering a new phase, I’m over 50 too and I have to not put any demands on myself
other than to just find new ways of acceptance, of myself and of others in a way that is healing and not condemning. I had a number of days of bad
headaches lately, have never been prone to them but had taken on alot, still dealing with feelings about this person as well as a bad tooth I got taken care of (that I hoped would solve the headaches!) as well as the good news of having to fill more orders for my business. And I just pushed
and pushed myself, still coming here to read periodically, but had to stay as quiet as I could – the headaches forced me to do that and I even
had to take off an afternoon from work one day as it seemed like my head was going to implode! I ended up at my son’s house and took a wonderful
walk in the sun by the river with him, my daughter-in-law and grandson and cried in front of them. They didn’t mind, they are supportive and I felt better, it was a real release. But I have to not be hard on myself that I let myself get so fragile, even needing that release. We’re so good, even dysfunctional about understanding others and what they ‘need’, that we neglect even giving ourselves the praise and support we need to forge ahead. Kathleen and Oxy, I love your posts always, too, thank you for being here.
I think it is hard to imagine what comes next and we all can tend to write off men or opening ourselves up to them in the future. I don’t feel I never want to be in another relationship though – I just feel a certain kind of release and freedom to do things I want to do now, and not let anyone else
(or myself) get in the way. Sometimes I’ve felt ‘invisible’ in the sense of the kind of respect I’m afforded by loved ones or bosses, sometimes it’s very subtle and I want to work on understanding that better as well for the future. It’s time to accept more responsibility and risk more in putting myself on the map, without apology.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 1:56pm
geminigirl says:
As I told you all, I found a new pic on facebook of my P daughter whom I havent seen in nearly 17 years. I started to really beat myself up for being so stupid as to look her up.
Decided to call my Iranian “Kids”, they came over for lunch yesterday andwe had a great day. I was able to share my sadness with Roya, and she hugged me while I cried, and comforted me, so did my lovely new son.”Mama , we love you, we are your new family now, we will always love you and be there for you!”they said.So thank God I didnt battle that sadness alone, as my husband gets tired of hearing about my P daughters, and they have been very mean and heartless to him too.So alls well, I was able to turn things around, have a happy day, get support from my new “kids”
and stop beating myself up. How good is that?!!and {{HUGS!!}}} Mama Bear Gem.XXX
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 2:48pm
heavenbound says:
Mama Bear Gem,
I am so excited to hear you had someone to put their arms around you while you cried! It is a wonderful feeling to have that, I thank God he came to you in your time of need! Your iranian kids sound very good, I’m so very happy for you, not only that but I never thought I’d have an iranian brother and sister well except maybe in God’s family, you know what I mean!
God bless you Mama Bear! I love you! Love, hugs, and prayers, heavenbound
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 3:28pm
sstiles54 says:
Oxy,
Very thought provoking article! I have spent the last few days trying to remember stuff that happened throughout my up-bringing, that have influenced me & my decisions. I didn’t even realise how many bags & how heavy they were until I set some of them down. I am still reading The Betrayal Bond, & doing the exercises as I read, discovering things about myself I never knew until now. Makes me wonder how I made it to 55 not being able to see these things.
Love & hugs to all of you, may our journey together be a healing one.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 3:53pm
geminigirl says:
Dear heavenbound, thank you darling for your sweet words. of course we are all in the same family of LF, and it is a very special family, even though we may never meet, but NEVER SAY NEVER!! God DOES hear our cries and our prayers.
I wish you a very happy day, dear!! All will be well!
I love you too, and {{HUGS}} to all of you,
Mama gem.XX
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 4:42pm
persephone7 says:
This is probably off topic but check out latest Mac ads – are they using the ’sociopath as PC’ approach? Especially in the one with big guy “call me when you’re willing to compromise’ and the repeated ‘trust me’ one. For some reason I decided to watch them other night and that ‘trust me’ one
really hit home… just that phrase gave me the creeps!
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 5:10pm
justabouthealed says:
Persephone,
Amen. And I saw a Pepsi (?) app for I phones that has pick up lines for guys to use, depending on the type of woman they think you are. Our culture, or many parts of it, is leaning way over on the Narcissist and P scale.
I am making huge progress. Not sure when it happened, but I’ve totally lost my appetite (even in the abstract) for “strong” men, “leaders”….fine for getting a job done, but not fine for a mate. Likewise, a guy who is “coming on” to me is a turn off….and I think that would be true if I were single. I’m so over flirting, love songs, all that. I feel like I finally get what real love is about and it takes a long time for that trust to be earned and established. I’m so out of sync with the current culture that if anything happens to my husband….I’ll never find another. I am no longer hungry for validation by a man. Not sure how it all came about but just really got clear about that very recently. Feels GREAT.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:26pm
justabouthealed says:
PS It became apparent to me when a guy that I know was “interested” popped back in via fb (ugh), and the thought of him is now disgusting, where as five years ago I thought he was so hot. VICTORY!
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:28pm
amber says:
I agree persephone and justabouthealed….that our society is learning over on the N/S/P scale. Now I see things on tv, or talking to people in public and under my breath, I catch myself saying, “sociopath.” I hope that my experience only makes me aware and not paranoid to get to know new people. I find that I question EVERYTHING out of people’s mouths now. I guess in the long run it will be to my benefit to question everything because if I don’t and I let my guard down, I don’t want another S sneakin in because I was nice enough to just believe everything he said.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:36pm
OxDrover says:
Persephone,
It is funny isn’t it, about how “older women” are “invisible” in some areas of our culture? You see beautiful young women on the media and front pages, but most ads are geared toward young men and women, unless it is for incontinence pads or false teeth powder. LOL
Of if you see an ad for an ED pill for men, he is always dancing with or holding hands with a woman who looks 15-20 years younger than him.
Age and wisdom are no longer the same thing, and I see so many older women who go to great lengths to “dress young” and try to appear “younger” than their ages –and men too with the hair dyed jet black with white roots and the “comb overs” to hide baldness. I can “sense” sometimes the “invisible” changes in the way (mostly) middle aged people interact with me, but I am not going to let them make me FEEL invisible.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:41pm
justabouthealed says:
And it used to be in cultures (and still is in some) that the elders are revered, etc. Not in the USA!
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:46pm
skylar says:
Amber, whhhoooo hoooo for you.
I do the same thing. My P-dar is soooo finely tuned, the slightest passive-aggressive nuance registers a beeeeeeep!
It’s not that I expect everyone to be perfect, because we all have an inner P, but when you get loud beeeeep or several small beeps grouped together, you have a red flag.
I think I figured out the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath. They are similar but a narcissist is really self centered and will attack if it gets a narcissistic injury (real or imagined). It needs constant reassurance or it will turn into the devil. The sociopath is similar except it’s already one big oozing, festering, pus-filled narcissistic injury and that’s why it’s always on the prowl for someone to take revenge on. The sociopath will stalk it’s prey by mirroring and will even try to seem meek and humble. That’s because it is basically a wounded predator, ready to strike as soon as it’s got the victim within it’s reach. Other sociopaths, like mine, prefer to destroy their victim slowly. They realize that they are decaying and they want someone else to decay too. They will smear their oozing infection all over their victim subtly. They don’t want the victim to know it’s coming from them. They want the victim to think they have an infection or disease. The victim then slowly comes to believe in their own defectiveness. But in truth the defect was just a projection of the P.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 6:53pm
persephone7 says:
Oxy and jah:
You both make a good point, and I know I get the word ‘attractive’ more than ‘pretty’ now – I know I still look good ‘for my age’…so what! But even my lover who was younger would harp on that to the point I felt like,is that what I’m mainly about, lookin’ good? He’d say how intelligent I am but there was this other fear that would creep in that I better stay fit and as young-looking as I could, ok if he started to go a bit though! I plan to take care of
myself but only because I do have some vanity and feel better when I stay fit.
The ‘invisibility’ I was speaking of is this feeling of finding myself at work and not always
being introduced by bosses to new people, even when I’m right there. Or having them
say things about my talent with art and it can seem a bit patronising – and I know it brings
up something in me that why am I allowing myself to be invisible, and why am I not putting
myself in a leadership role, why always an assistant or subordinate to someone who I may
respect, but who just has different strengths than I? Don’t know if I’m expressing this right –
I just know lately I’ve felt more like I want to break away and really use MY strengths more
and is that arrogant? Once again, whether we’re old or young, whether we think we’ve been
victimized or victims or not, we can still reclaim who we really are and do what we’re best at, that’s what I’m talkin’ about!
Like you said, Oxy I’ve become more aware of ‘older’ people now just being like me, just
further down the road, with hopefully more perspective and appreciation of life than a younger
person can really grasp when they think they’ll be around ‘forever.’
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 7:19pm
amber says:
skylar..thanks for that!! And you couldn’t be more right. I beleive my ex was both a N and S because he was insanely self centered and knew it. He had no qualms admitting he was selfish or wanted everything to be about him. ME ME ME all the time! But I think he was more of a S because of his destructive behavior, inability to tell the truth, complete lack of remorse etc etc. He knew he was wounded and decaying. He would often say to me that he didn’t want to take me down with him, which was a LIE! He could say that till he was blue in the face, and all I asked was he tell me the truth so I could make educated decsions for myself as to whether I wanted to stay or leave. And he STILL would lie, to keep my around. So he knew he was taking me down with him, but wanted to pretend that he cared enough to keep me around. I know he got off on me telling him that I wanted to make it better and I would never leave him. He set his trap and he knew he had his grip on me. As long as he had that, he wasn’t alone. In the end, I felt like a nuttcase!! Ewww…he makes my skin crawl now. I keep replaying the last conversation I had with him over and over again in my head disecting every single little statement. How he tried to make himself the victim, telling you, “YOU’RE the one that has changed.” WTF?!?!? That shocked me. But I know now it was him just trying to portray his negativity and guilt onto me, to take the attention off him. And I called him out on it. No way was I going to let him play reverse pyschology on ME anymore. I wish someone would stick him in a white room and study him. The world would be a much more ENLIGHTENED place!
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 7:33pm
kim frederick says:
JAH, I’m with you on the macho strong guy turn-off. Also the guy who’s coming on. Yuck.
Perseph, How does a psychopath say F–k you?
answer: trust me.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 8:18pm
persephone7 says:
Kim,
Thanks – I’ll file that one away for future reference…
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 8:38pm
skylar says:
Trust me.
I don’t think my P ever said that to me, but when I was 15 I dated a 21 yearold guy who said that to me. He screwed me and screwed me over within a week. Must’ve been a P.
I didn’t know about P’s then, but I did learn that those words mean RUN.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 9:02pm
keensight says:
Hi Skylar – Yes…Those are words I live by now and thanks for
the idea. I’m going to put that up on my fridge. We’ve paid dearly for the knowledge we’ve gained about this spectrum
disorder. Some of us don’t even need reminders depending on how far along the spectrum our abusers happened to be.
What being aware does underscore is the need to self-protect
which is something many of us were NOT taught by our primary caregivers. In many instances they were teaching us
that crazy making behavior was normal and that making note
of it or trying to stop it made US crazy. Even worse was the
conveyance of the message that what we were witnessing or
experiencing of this craziness wasn’t happening.
I call it the classic MIND F$%&K. As children, depending on our developmental level and awareness of what we should own and what our abusers did that made it impossible to
disown their dysfunction, really set us up to be attracted to the wrong things in others as adults. We may have incorporated their dysfunction on a subconscious level that
made repetition compulsion unavoidable until we finally saw
the writing on the wall.
Many of us coming out of that are willing to lay our SELVES
on the line to prove that we can “fix it” when it shows up in our
significant others. It’s one of the hallmarks of codependency.
We hang in there, having invested ourselves so deeply with
those all important people, that we just can’t let go. That’s
precisely why we have to and then focus on ourselves.
Kathleen – What you said about the people around you being deep in their own dramas anyway regardless of attempts you made to help them, making it beyond your ability to fix is a sad and very accurate observation. It’s like trying to save someone in deep water who is drowning. You may be a strong swimmer and know that if you can reach them in time,
you could save them. The scary part is the realization that
when you finally get close enough to really help them, they not only don’t want it, they will pull you under with them if you
let them grab hold of you firmly. None of us has any duty or
moral obligation to take on anyone elses “stuff” and no amount of guilt or regret can change someone. You do the best you can and then let go and let God do the rest.
Hi OxDrover – What you said about forgiveness is true. I was praying last night for the ability to forgive those who have harmed me. I don’t want what they’ve done to define who I am in any way other than through a frame of awareness.
Holding on to grief and heartache does bring bitterness.
Becoming embittered would only undo the hard work I’ve done to heal already. I don’t want to make any further investment of myself, time or energy in what is going to hold me back. They are who they are. I am using what they’ve
brought to grow more deeply in self understanding.
Persephone7 – Thank you for your kind comment. I love your
screen name. I don’t know how many of you here are familiar with the myth of Demeter and Persephone. All of us here,
whether male of female, have been Persephone in our relationships with sociopathic significant others. Pluto, Lord
of the UnderWorld, desired Persephone, daughter of Demeter.
Pluto, represents death, decay and all those unconscious, hidden energies in every human being that remind us that
everything is continually changing and being reborn into something else. He is unavoidable in this life. Naturally Demeter wouldn’t have chosen him as mate for her beautiful virgin daughter. So he just abducted her to his underworld realm.
What Persephone really represents is a loss of innocence and
purity. At some point each one of us is abducted into the underworld realm by someone who “forces us” to take a look at the underbelly of things and other people. We may not want to go there, but ultimately knowing about unconscious motives, subtexts, hidden agendas and the like is to our best
benefit. Each one of us here is working on understanding that
which is hidden in others and ourselves, so that we can avoid being abducted and used by others who don’t have our best interests in mind.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 9:12pm
geminigirl says:
keensight, the french writer, Anais Nin, wrote this great analogy. she said,”If you were on a raft, at sea, trying to save a drowning person,-You are trying to pull him onto the raft, but then you realise he is trying to pull you into the water. At some point, for your OWN survival, you have to let go of that hand, and let him drown. Or he will pull you in, and then you will both drown.”
So true, and this is what ps do to us all the time. At some point, we have to let go, and swim for the shore, save our own life.Love, Gem.XX
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 9:45pm
skylar says:
Ummm… wait, couldn’t we knife the P while he is drowning and then when his body floats use it to keep ourselves floating too?
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 9:49pm
kim frederick says:
That reminds me of the Bon Jovie song, what is it it. I’ll be there for You? Anybody remember?
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 10:11pm
skylar says:
Kim, I looked up the song and the lyrics are the same things the fricken P said to me when I left him. Icky.
I’d live and I’d die for you
Steal the sun from the sky for you
Words can’t say what a love can do
I’ll be there for you
he said something to that effect about the sun and moon and dying for me. argh.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 10:39pm
persephone7 says:
Sky…what a little happyface you are…! Somehow, I don’t think their bodies
would even float…bona fide dead weight like a two-ton anchor…
I’m off to watch the World Series (OMG, more men – I do like Derek Jeter, though…) Keensight, that’s why I chose Persephone – have always related
to her story, probably why I love pomegranates as well and you told the story and interpreted it so beautifully, thank you. I’ve also related to the story of ‘The Red Shoes’ where the young girl puts on the beautiful red shoes but they’re evil and she must dance, dance, dance until she must cut her feet off to be able to be able to stop the madness – we’ve all been involved in this dance.
Luckily, our feet can regenerate…
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 10:39pm
teacher123 says:
Great post! I think one thing we want to do is lay blame- how did this life of mine become such a mess. Well obviously it must be someone else’s fault. I like to do it as much as anybody I guess. But one thing we forget is that at one time we loved or professed to love or illusioned that we were in love perhaps with another person. Well I am not denying the fact that the hurt and damage the other person has done isn’t real or continuing, but when you are laying face down in a hospital bed with bandages about you- you can either get up to live again, or develop bedsores. Can you realize that your love was not a mistake even if the other person turned out to be fake? Sorry I borrowed that line from Simply Red in a song called Fake. I find music very healing. I also have been enjoying a song by Michael McDermott that has a good line which says, “she had love in her eyes, but murder on her lips”. I have a few Bon Jovi songs on my MP3 too. Keep the Faith.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 10:53pm
geminigirl says:
Joyce Meyer says that holding on to bitterness and hatred, and not forgiveing, that person, is like drinking poison yourself, and expecting that enemy to die.Her father sexually molested her nearly every day from the age of 8 or 10, until she left home. It was very very hard for her to forgive her Fathr, but she did. She also said,”Forgiving that person does NOT in any way condone what they did,nor does it mean you have to see that person again. It certainly doesnt mean you meet him for lunch, and act like it didnt happen”. Its especially hard for us, as there are NEVER any apologies with Ps,its never their fault, they are perfect and blameless in their own minds.They will l never give us the closure we crave, we may as well forget that.Love, GemXX
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 10:58pm
luv716 says:
Now I see the S will never admitt his wrong an I will always be the blame for what he done to me Yeah he think he is perfect and he done no wrong. I have to move on I have too because I’m waisting too much time, I realize he’s never gonna change he is who he is, so uncaring, not trust worthy, and don’t give a damn about me, he used me got all he could and now that everything is gone (money) he’s gone. He’s living his life while I’m at home alone on weekends hurting. Thats it for me I’m done I have to move on I gave him too much power!
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 2:40am
ErinBrock says:
Luv:
Yes….no responsibilty taken ever, it’s all about them. We are objects, as is everyone else they ever come in contact with. They are not capable of compassion and empathy…..it’s a big pill to swallow coming from an empathetic person who can’t relate to this reality.
But it’s true….you are correct….I am very proud of you for coming to this realization! Take back your power over YOU….stay in charge of YOU……
You are in a good place to have arrived at this conclusion!
THEY DON”T CHANGE…..
Don’t take it personal…..IT”S NOT YOU!
XXOO
EB
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 3:09am
luv716 says:
Thanks, and yes it is a hard pill to swallow because you think your doing the right thing by being there for the one you love an then you realize it was all scam, The hurt is unexplainable! I’m 43 and I already feel like its hard enough to find a companion at my age, time is waisting. No way in Hell could I ever go back to him, I could never trust him, How can I get over being used by him? The love was fake, and I’m never gonna get my money back, so what else can I do but let go and move on.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:05am
luv716 says:
Yes it is personal, he used me…….
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:06am
Rosa says:
Luv716:
ErinBrock said, “…it’s a big pill to swallow coming from an empathetic person who can’t relate to this reality.”
It sure is a big pill to swallow.
In fact, I choked on “the pill” several times before I could “get it down”. I kept giving people chances who did NOT deserve it.
But, I was finally able to get that big pill down, if you know what I mean.
Sometimes, you have to break “the pill” up into smaller pieces, because it is too much to handle all at once.
And NO CONTACT is that big glass of water that makes it easier to swallow “the pill”.
I just tried to make an analogy here, or a metaphor. And, I am not as effective at it as some of the other bloggers.
“The pill” I am talking about is the realization that there are people maneuvering through life at the expense of others (under the veil of LOVE), and doing so Without Conscience.
Sorry if I confused you even more.
Anyway, it’s good that you see him for what he is, Luv.
You are being smart.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:09am
Rosa says:
Luv716:
“I’m 43 and I already feel like it’s hard enough to find a companion at my age, time is wasting.”
Don’t do that to yourself, Luv.
You are NOT a carton of milk with an expiration date on it.
You are a WOMAN! A kind, wonderful woman who deserves LOVE!!
It doesn’t matter how old you are. Age is just a number, that’s all.
And you WILL find love. I believe we all will.
I feel like our society likes to “put women out to pasture” when they reach a certain age, and it really infuriates me.
Don’t fall into that trap, Luv.
Be kind to yourself.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:23am
luv716 says:
Thanks, I understand what you was saying with the metaphor. Yeah since all this has happen to me its like the rose color glasses have been removed. It not that I’m putting my self out to pasture, the reality of it all men our age is chasing young girls Its hard to keep hope alive when you seening all whats going on. Thats why I said the hell with the (s) to much time waisting hoping and trying to figure out why he did what he did. He did it because he don’t give a f*#k about me. It is what it is I gotta move forward, not saying its gonna be easy but I’m going do the best I can.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:43am
pollyannanomore says:
Thanks for this – I drive myself mad with the ‘ what if’s’ especially now I am in my thirties and may be out of time to have a child. I have wasted ten years with this man and perhaps my only chance at motherhood – so regrets yes I have a few.
I wake up every morning with the situation uppermost in my mind and am only able to sleep for three hours a night. I am totally stressed out with the situation and can’t wait for some resolve when he leaves soon.
I also feel society has ridiculous expectations for women once they are over thirty. Reality dictates that if fifty percent of relationships break up then fifty percent of guys our age are single and not all of them want to hook up with eighteen yr olds – some are surely mature enough to want someone close to their own age. That Lilly Allen song might have it right!
“It’s sad but it’s true how society says her life is already over. There’s nothing to do and there’s nothing to say. Till the man of her dreams comes along, sweeps her up and puts her over his shoulder – it seems so unlikely in this day and age.”
I have to wonder how long society can keep functioning as though nothing is wrong when all these solid family units are breaking up every day = surely one day all people will just say ENOUGH I AM STAYING HOME TODAY – imagine the impact that would have with employers if everyone did that. I am so sick of having to soldier on with all my wounds as though everything is fine and dandy and he didn’t wreck my life when he so did.
Tough day today I guess!
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 7:40pm
bethv says:
Ox…don’t live with regrets…I used to do that until I realized I was missing living for today. This psychopath has taken enough from you….don’t let him take tomorrow too. Don’t give him that power…take it back…you deserve it. Everyone has regrets in life…it’s how long we hold onto them that matters. Move on…be happy! and God Bless!
Beth v
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 9:09pm
henry says:
Luv716 – You could not say it any better or clearer. All we can do is move on and we will. Time is on our side – as time goes by we hurt less because of what they did. And become stronger and happier with ourselve’s. I am 55 – doubt I will ever find my prince on a white horse..and if I do he better be able to afford to feed his own horse. LIFE IS MUCH BIGGER AND BETTER THAN HAVING ONE SOMEONE TOO COMPLETE US.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 9:28pm
persephone7 says:
pollyann…You are so young! Don’t buy into what society says, the world
is still your oyster ….but I remember those days when I still lived in L.A.
and already felt ‘old’ and passed by at 24, my third year in college, good
grief… I know that feeling of ’soldiering on’ too, have been doing it for some time now, trying to fit in some FUN here and there but sometimes you
just get so weary. Do what you can to take good care of yourself, try to
relax at night, eat good meals and find a way to get more sleep – that can
depress you and be a downward spiral for anyone if you’re sleep deprived.
Focus on beauty, buy yourself a pretty bouquet of flowers and put it where
it can give you pleasure. Take a walk, get that fresh air and it will help clear
your mind (maybe not completely) to let in new thoughts of a better future.
The ‘what if’s’ is a fruitless path, but you have so much life left to live, take
it from a new grandma in her 50’s – and I didn’t even have my kids until
I was thirty and over!
Good call, tough day and my heart goes out to you.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Bethv,
Thank you, I’m moving on as fast as I can suffle along!
Henry, dear, How about an old woman with TWO, count them, two, big long earred asses! That ought to beat a prince on a white horse any day! And I’ve got me own skillet! LOL ROTFLMAO
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 10:43pm
pollyannanomore says:
thanks Persephone
You are so right. I just need to fuel up here a bit then go do some stuff. I am taking my life back one tentative step at a time but yes it is exhausting. I am left with fibro from the stress so that causes dreadful pain and tiredness – am working hard to find the cause and treat it but of course that takes money and to get money you have to work!
So it’s really hard at the moment. I just see Facebook friends posting pics of their perfect little families – nice husbands who didn’t lie to them, who didn’t emotionally abuse them. I can’t help but feel cheated by it all.
No matter what kind of positive spin I put on it – I had already had enough trauma before this – the abandoning father, the step father who tried to make a pass at me, the distorted relationship with my stressed out mother, rape, abortion and now a ten year train wreck that has by far been the worst. No offence but I think trauma should be dealt out more fairly than that – one person can only take so much! I would have liked the option to ‘donate’ one or two of my life disasters to someone who had none. I seemed to be a magnet for them. It seems so unfair.
Thanks for sending your heart out to me – gives me a bit of strength
And it is more appreciated than you can know .
LMAO @ “He better be able to pay for the feed for his own horse” I think I have definitely removed my romantic notions about men – a man is not a financial plan
Hugs to everyone out there in the ether struggling after dancing with the devil. It leaves an imperceptible scent that forever changes us.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:02pm
henry says:
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:47pm
geminigirl says:
Luv 716, I met my darling second husband when I was 44, and we have just recently celebrated our 25th Wedding Anniversary! You are in your prime!There are still nice men out there, thay are not all frogs, now and again you get to kiss a prince!! TOWANDAA!!! Rock on! Love, Gem.XX
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 5:42am
akitameg says:
I miss you all.
Half of you do not even know me. I used to write all the time.
I was akitameg– I guess I still am- but my dear Akita, CJ, passed two weeks ago. He was only 8 and all I had after my s.
Oxy– I miss you.
I work full time– have no depresssion– and want to let the newcomers know that you can get past this….
I do have one concern for the “old comers” however.
I am now– finding myself doing things– unhealthy things– that I would not have done b4 my Spath.
I am dating two people.!!! Yes– they know of each other–completely. I am being honest with them on that.
but I cannot make up my mind (prayer, prayer, prayer)— and I start thinking that I AM NOw ACTING LIKE AN S!!!
I do not want to hurt anyone– but it is apparent that I am going to b/c they both literally love me.
Then again– would an Spath care or feel this guilt and fear?
But how can a woman date her exhusband who she loves (but does not want sx with…) and date a sweet, genuine (Have checked him out– and he used to be in NFL– my dad even knows him as does Mike Ditka who worked with me dad and he can’t say enough about this man’s integrity.), nurturing, God loving, also Catholic man?
Have I lost some of my conscience b/c of the pain/betrayal of an S?
Why can’t I make up my mind?
Is my exhus security? He was with me before damned S.
Please say a prayer for akitameg.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 7:06am
akitameg says:
Your articles are wonderful.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 7:07am
skylar says:
akitameg,
my condolences on the loss of you sweet puppy.
When you say date do you mean going out but no sex with your ex? It sounds like you are just friends and there is nothing wrong with that. You can love more than one person, you just cant make a committment of monogomy w/more than one.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 7:51am
banana says:
Oxy,
Somebody read my mind.
Last night I cried for hours. The life I once knew, although I had recently left an abusive relationship was one of less stress.
I never asked God for a perfect life with everything I could dream of, a perfect career, nice car, perfect husband, a perfectly healthy family…never.
But my life before the Sociopath was easier.
Now almost everyday I face accusations, my daycare provider is facing false accusations because my S wants a place where he can see and pick up his son even if it’s not his visitation (this won’t happen at any daycare).
Cuts my son’s hair without my consent, tries to pick him up without my consent. Accuses daycare of neglect because of a diaper rash (which went away when I stopped giving my son apple juice), and bruises he got when he fell in MY house.
Friday I had the opportunity to get both flu shots for my son back home. I asked my S and he said NO. So, my son did not get either vaccine. Now, this am I get a text from my S saying my son has a fever and can not sleep.
My son does not deserve this…I know we all have our stance on flu shots, but I have always gotten one and my son got the vaccine last year.
Just how and when do I stop letting his mud-slinging, framing, fabrications and insults hurt me?
I have come to the realization that I am paying my attorney TOO much because I forward every harassing text, and lie of an e-mail to my attorney.
There is nothing she can do. He fills me with fear, even when I know I did nothing wrong.
How do I wean myslef of my attorney when I am stricken with fear and anxiety?
And just what will I do when the papers and filed and signed?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:23am
OxDrover says:
My son does not deserve this…I know we all have our stance on flu shots, but I have always gotten one and my son got the vaccine last year.
Just how and when do I stop letting his mud-slinging, framing, fabrications and insults hurt me?
I have come to the realization that I am paying my attorney TOO much because I forward every harassing text, and lie of an e-mail to my attorney.
Dear Banana,
I hear your pain, sweetie. This is just what your X WANTS, YOUR PAIN.
QUOTE:
“Just how and when do I stop letting his mud-slinging, framing, fabrications and insults hurt me?”
The answer to the “when?” is NOW, and the answer to the “how?” is a little more complex…but YOU CAN DO IT.
You are not alone. You are not even the first young mother to come here with stories of ENDLESS nasty things done to their child, you are not the last one who will come here either. This, unfortunately, doesn’t decrease YOUR pain, but recognizing that this is a COMMON TRICK of the psychopaths to attack you through your child and to keep you OFF BALANCE.
In order to get your balance, you must, and I say MUST start looking at the BIG picture.
1) YOU are filled with anxiety over “small things” that in the BIG picture don’t matter a hill of beans—okay, your kid’s hair got cut, it is NOT a TATTOO of Satan on his forehead. GET OVER IT! (I mean that in the nicest kindest way, that is not a slam)
2) His “insults” only hurt you because YOU ALLOW THEM TO. What the hell difference what he says about whether or not you love your son? (referring to last week’s post) Does it make a difference what the hell he thinks? Get over caring what the hell the piece of dog doo thinks. He is a freaking psychopath for goodness sakes!
You CAN get over this, you are suffering the anxiety etc that is associated with CONTINUAL STRESS and FEAR—he is WINNING as long as you do this.
OK—now after the arse kicking, here are some good points.
1) YOU have RECOGNIZED what he is doing!
2) YOU WANT to stop it,
3) YOU KNOW you MUST STOP IT.
4) You have a whole ARMY of wonderful people, + one cranky old lady on YOUR SIDE! (and the old lady has a skillet!)
5) YOU ARE STRONGER than you KNOW–but you are going to start PRACTICING THAT STRENGTH.
6) Next time you feel stressed out, you will a) take a deep breath b) tell yourself “this will pass” c) start taking better care of yourself and LET THE SMALL THINGS SLIDE—chant “he is just trying to piss me off, this is NO BIG deal”
7) You are going to focus on the BIG things and you are going to quit listening to this sopathole!@
(((((hugs)))) and my prayers, Banana! Love Oxy xoxoxox
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:42am
witsend says:
banana,
Basically you got to know when to hold them and know when to fold them.
And of course that is easier said than done. But when you REALLY get sick and tired of being sick and tired, you will be ready.
Sending your attorney every harassing text or email or phone call from a S/P/N will cost you a fortune in the end and she will be able to retire early!
Start LOOKING at it that way. Your goal is not to make your attorney rich.
Write that as the heading on a piece of paper .
Then on the piece of paper list 3 or 4 of your REAL goals.
don’t list a bunch just a few of the major goals and put this somewhere on your fridge or by your computer and try and LIVE by it for a few days.
Don’t pay for your attorney to document all this texting and harassment. You may keep the dates and times in your files but, later when your court date comes up you can pick and choose what is really IMPORTANT and forget about the rest.
As skylar says…Be the grey rock. Your still letting him get to your emotions. And he is using that supply.
If his lips are moving he is lying. You are like his drug, if you keep the supply available, he will come back for more.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:48am
OxDrover says:
Dear Meg,
First off I am so sorry your sweet doggie passed. ((((hug))))
As far as you dating two guys and “can’t make up your mind” To me sweetie, that means you don’t really want EITHER. OK? WHY do you have to ahve a relationship beyond “friendship” with either one? It is obvious to me that you are not “really in love” with EITHER of them. Just cause a guy is “wonderful” and so on doesn’t mean we have to be seriously in LOVE with them. “In-LIKE” is okay too. FRIENDS is okay too. Some people won’t “settle for that” but you know, this is NOT the last trolly in San Francisco…..LOL
I think that “choosing” between two guys because you feel pressured because they both love YOU doesn’t mean either one is RIGHT FOR YOU. It is OK for you to just be “friends” with them both, and explain to them that RIGHT NOW you are not ready for a SERIOUS relationship and that you care for them, but right now you are working on YOURSELF.
I miss you too, Meg, and I wondered how you were doing. I am so glad you are working again. Don’t be gone so long! There’s still wonderful, healing things here on LF and some new and wonderful people as well. (((hugs))) and my prayers!
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:53am
witsend says:
Akitameg,
I am so sorry about your sweet dog….
It is good to know that you are not feeling depressed anymore.
I know that you were battling with that awile back. I’m glad you came back to tell us that you are felling better.
As for the two guys….Maybe just enjoy it for what it is worth and don’t pressure yourself because they are “in love with you”.
Give yourself time to figure out how you really feel about them.
No man completes a womans life. A woman needs to complete herself .
Once you can feel complete on your own, it is only then that a relationship won’t deplete you if something does go wrong. You would be able to move away from it and still feel a complete and whole person.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 9:07am
banana says:
Thank you SOOOO much. I know it’s all in my head, and I always feel better when I get some distance, and get some perspective from you guys.
I forgot to ask you though; how do I respond if I HAVE to. and WHen is it okay to NOt respond?
My attorney TOLD me to ask him about the flu shot…this just openned up a landslide of insults.
then MY attorney asked me On friday, to send him an e-mail explaining how he aquired the bruises wed. night. I did not get my attorney’s email till Monday, so now he’s saying I conjured it all up over the weekend.
I Do Not usually respond unless it’s urgent, but If he successfully makes feel as though my son’s health depends on the answer, OR that he’ll somehow be able to construe my unresponsiveness as not being concerned for my son, then I will respond.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 9:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana
QUOTE: he successfully makes feel as
He does NOT “make you feel”——that is giving him power over your emotions. YOU FEEL in response to his words/actions, but you do NOT have to ALLOW him to influence how YOU choose to FEEL.
You have got to get that concept in your head/thoughts/mind–he does NOT have power over your feelings unless YOU ALLOW IT.
You allowing him to “twist:” and “control” your feelings is YOUR problem and only YOU can fix it.
As far as the flu shot, I would NOT have asked him, I would just ahve DONE it. Do you ASK him if you should feed or bathe your child? keep in mind, once something is done it can’t be undone. Did he ASK you before he cut the kid’s hair?
Of course not, so why are YOU trying to be “nice” to him?
If you had NOT wanted the flu shot for your kid, he would have wanted it. He is 180 degrees off from whatever you want, and since the CDC is recommending the flu shot, NO judge would have been against you for doing what is best for your kid.
I suggest you take your kid for flu shots and keep your mouth shut! So how is he going to know you did it? If necessary go to a public clinic or a doctor who doesn’t know you are divorcing, they will just think dad is at work.
Quit telling your attorney every time your x passes gas—through his mouth or any other way….as far as him trying to pin abuse on the day care, just talk to the DAY care about it. If it comes to an investigation you can tell the INVESTIGATOR.
Do NOT jump every time your X yells FROG! That is a reward for him every time you do. IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 9:51am
recovering says:
Oxy — Thanks for an article that helped me continue to reflect on the multi-layered aspects of healing.
henry: I too feel that it took my exes/family/friends who are takers/users to help me wake up, to make me respect myself, to see my own flaws, and untangle the mess — as you discovered.
Persephone, I relate to your comments on the loss of innocence…being forced to take a look at the unconscious motives of people, subtexts and hidden agendas, is in our best interests.
keensight and Skylar – Yes indeed…we’ve paid dearly for the knowledge we’ve gained! A lesson is reinforced about the need to self-protect by establishing clear boundaries in order not to absorb crazy-making behaviors that were viewed as normal.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INSIGHTS.
Gaining wisdom through pain humbles us, but also can set us free!
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 10:43am
kim frederick says:
Morning everybody. Oxy, I really like your advise to Banana.
Years ago, when I was still married to my 2nd XN, and was continuing to try to “work on it”, I went into therapy and learned how he manipulated me with the whole FOG stuff. My therapist taught me to say a few key phrases, and to do it with all the finess of Skylar’s gray rock. I would say, “Well, do what ya gotta do”, or “what ever you choose”, or “sorry, that’s not MY problem”, then I’d just go about doing whatever it was I was doing, and ignore him.
It was amazing how empowering that was. I had been taking responsibility for everything. His feelings, his decisions, his reactions, and he was manipulating ME with that sence of responsibility. I, was oneof those people who hungered for connection, and being honest about who I was, and what I felt, and believing I could communicate these things: that I could solve problems, I wore my heart on my sleeve. All my emotions were right there out front, right on time………..But when I realized that there was no reason to expend that emotional energy,(because I couldn’t fix IT) I no longer did. Wow. I felt a charge of power go through me every time I just shrugged my shoulders and said, “well, do what ya gotta do.”
And oh boy, did it ever through him for a loop. It made HIM responsible for the choices HE made. Great stuff. Just try it.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 11:09am
OxDrover says:
Dear Recovering and Kim,
Glad the article resonated with you both. I write about the problems I have had in the past and how I found solutions, or got beyond it, and I think we all have a similar set of problems, just as THEY are so much alike, so are WE in our healing. It is all multi-layered and isn’t just “over” or “there” but we have to keep on trucking, peeling back another layer.
As we get closer and closer to the center, things get easier as teh RAW emotions are calmed by the peace we start to feel and by the decrease in the STRESS we feel. I dfon’[t think we ever learn how to deal with THEM except by NC both physical (where possible) and EMOTIONAL NC by NOT letting their problems and behaviors and thoughts become ours.
Realizing that we are NOT responsible for anyone except ourselves is an eye opening experience, and we NO LONGER have to feel regrets that we didn’t fix the world, or even fix ourselves prior to when we got on the healing road to STAY there. I learn more every day, and that is what keeps me working, staying on that road. It is exciting and empowering to learn more and to feel more in control of ME—rather than letting external events dictate my moods.
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 11:32am
banana says:
Kim,
Thank you.
I too, “was one of those people who hungered for connection, and being honest about who I was, and what I felt, and believing I could communicate these things: that I could solve problems, I wore my heart on my sleeve.”
I just cant wait for the D to be done.
Until then I AM trying to do all the right things.
YES. even my pastor said, “Go get the flu shot. He doesn’t ask you before he does things.”
however, until the D is final, making “unilateral” decisions is not looked upon well by the court.
I don’t believe being smug would either. For now I will try my darndest not to say a word except to communicate the FACTS.
PS: In S’s last e-mail he told me that I “Do what you want, when you want, without my consent.”
The only thing I have done without his consent was take the Christ Life Solution class which is 3 hours away in my hometown. This has caused me to have to drive my son home at bed time and transfer to bed upon arrival every sunday for 13 weeks (4 of which I actually don’t have my son, but this, then caused my S to have to keep him his whole visitation time, which he didn’t like). Though now he seems to want him all the time.
I am sure many people do similar things with their children due to their schedules. I don’t believe this was a completely selfish act either. It is my son’s best interest that I become a healthy, single, unique, and whole mommy : )
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 11:40am
sistersister says:
I have no regrets, because I accept that it was part of my journey to meet these people and fight them off. When I have finally resolved that part of me, I will stop meeting such people. I will smell out their psychopathy up front, not later.
That said, however, I can congratulate myself on applying the smell-test early in the relationship, even if probably not early enough. How awful I feel for those of you who married, and had kids with, somebody like this. How unfortunate I felt at the time, to have failed to “make it” with these people! I have suffered the accusation that I am “afraid of intimacy” and “cannot sustain a long-term relationship.” I’ll take that any day, rather than being Mary Jo Buttafuoco.
Instead of being smug and proud of myself, is there something a person like me can offer to people like you? What gives some of us early-bullshit-detectors? Or even prior-bullshit-detectors? (Unfortunately, I’m not one of these lucky “prior” detectors, but I count myself as an “early” one.) Or are victims of psychopaths just randomly chosen? What is that secret personality trait we all should have but don’t? I’m wondering for my sake as well as yours, because I would like to skip my next encounter with a psychopath. I’ll take the education without the bruising next time.
I don’t regret that family I never had because of my poor relationship choices. That would have been a very crazymaking family. I have no family today, and that is God’s purpose for me — to give me other opportunities in life and other meaningful ways of relating.
Somebody once observed of me that I was “unconventional.” A kind of relationship hippie. And he described it as healthy, not unhealthy. I have pure honesty — and that was its only fault, really — too much honesty hurts. I was so grateful for this comment! Because “normal” is attracting this psychopathic crap in the name of creating a conventional life. Everybody does it, to some extent. It’s lying to yourself because you want to “make it work” as a “mature” individual rather than a relationship hippie.
Being this hippie has its faults, too, by the way.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 12:02pm
sistersister says:
I just read Kim’s post and realized something.
Maybe that thing we all have that attracts these leeches is strength. Not weakness. But we have somehow been made to feel guilty for our strength.
This was definitely the case with my sister. “Give in to her; she’s not as strong/smart/clever as you.”
You’re right, Kim, we’re not responsible for their self-destruction. Maybe we feel that strong people like us were put here to take care of others. It’s OK to feel that way, and even assuage our guilt that way. We WERE put here to take care of others. Take care of others — for a short time. Then release them. There are 6 billion others waiting for a hug from you, Mother Teresa.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 12:11pm
Isabell says:
This past Sunday, I was thinking about all the turmoil and deception that has been thrust upon me and I questioned how it is that I have been so easy to decieve.
Somewhere, at some point in my earliest years, I baught into the belief…. Love bears all things. Love hopes all things. Love does not keep a record of wrongs. Love never fails…. etc.
In my casual conversation with God, on the way to Church, I questioned the rationality of this teaching in a world and judicial system that condemns the innocent victims for crying out. And then, protect the rights of the S to destroy anyone s/he wants.
I don’t remember what the service as about, except it lead me to this:
“Do not answer a fool according to his folly.” Proverbs 26:4
DO NOT ANSWER A FOOL!!!!!!!
It doesn’t get any clearer then this.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 12:30pm
Isabell says:
sistersister wrote:
“Maybe that thing we all have that attracts these leeches is strength. Not weakness. But we have somehow been made to feel guilty for our strength.”
I believe you are right.
When I was near a nervous breakdown, and probably should have been hospitalized, my sister came to stay with me for a few days. She observed the interactions between me and my ex, and started pointing out the way he was treating me like a pupet. She questioned why I would let him do that to me. What is so sad is that I had become so numb to it, that I didn’t even notice, anymore.
She asked me, “Bell… you were the strongest person I’ve ever known. You wouldn’t let anything get in your way, bring you down, or intimidate you… How did he do this to you?”
sistersister also wrote:
“Give in to her; she’s not as strong/smart/clever as you.”
This is exactly what my ex’s family system preached to me and his other siblings about my ex.
When I brought up concerns about my ex’s anger, they acknolwedged that he’s been raging since he was a little boy. Even so, when I voiced my concerns about his anger over the years I was told…It must be something YOU are doing. YOU must have made him feel that you love your daughter more then him. Maybe he thinks YOU don’t love him. YOU should pray and ask God to CHANGE YOU.
When he took all of our savings, our joint business (put it in his girlfriend’s name) and left me with the bills, and NO income, and three small kids to raise, his father said… You should just let him have the business. He’s not as smart as you are. It’s all he has.
His mother said, “I think I know my son better then you do. He would never do that (referring to the abusive behavior).” Yet, she told stories of him throwing knives at his sister, and shooting his brother’s pet lizard, among other dangerous and violent acts.
Let’s see, we saw his mother about 10 minutes a year in the last 10 years of our marriage, and he hasn’t lived with her in over 30 years, and she believes she knows him better then I do?
It’s been 4.5 years since our separation, and just now…in the past few months, have I stopped feeling guilty for wanting what belongs to the kids and myself. Just now, am I able to gather the evidence that totally exposes him without feeling guilty that I’m doing something wrong.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 12:52pm
witsend says:
Isabell,
You said: His mother said, “I think I know my son better then you do. He would never do that (referring to the abusive behavior).” Yet, she told stories of him throwing knives at his sister, and shooting his brother’s pet lizard, among other dangerous and violent acts.
That is called denial. She likely will be in DENIAL of him for the rest of her life if she hasn’t gotten it by now.
My MIL was in denial with her son.
She once stood on my front porch and told me that my husband (her son) did NOT have a drinking problem until he met me. Not 10 minutes later she told me that when he left her house, when he was in his early 20s she found 50 empty vodka bottles hidden in his (very tiny) room. My jaw dropped.
then I asked about his DUIs that he had all had in his early 20s. And those were not his fault.
Denial is like a disease. It creates a fog much like the S/P/N does.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 1:34pm
OxDrover says:
Isabell,
My egg donor grew up with a brother than I call “uncle monster” who was 7 when she was born. He was definitely a P and started trying to smother the baby as soon as she was born. His mother (ever the “peace keeper”) hid this behavior from the boy’s father, because “he would get a spanking and might run away” so my egg donor grew up to age 7 with her brother smothering her unconscious every chance he got until she was 7 and he 14, with her MOTHER KNOWING, when my grandfather caught him and wore out his pants, which stopped the smothering, but he became a life long woman hater and abuser delux version. I didn’t know until he was dying just HOW MUCH OF A MONSTER HE WAS and I still may not know all the truth.
My egg donor (very religious, but NOT spiritual) told me that I had to “forgive” or go to hell, and forgiveness meant to “pretend it didn’t happen”—that never made sense to me, but I tried, but of course failed to live up to this…because the problem was NOT me, it was the abusers.
I have since learned that “forgiveness” (to me) means getting the bitterness out of my own heart, not that I have to trust them or associate with them or pretend it didn’t happen, or wouldn’t happen again if I would allow it.
I have a whole new relationship with MY God, which is NOT my egg donor’s god, her idol of angry vengence waiting to zap me to hell because I don’t give in to her or any other abuser.
Even Jesus got justifiably angry, and said “be ye angry and sin not” so justifable anger itself is not a sin…it is losing your head and acting badly because you are angry and use that for an excuse.
St. Paul told us not to associate with “brothers” who are willfully sinful (and if a P isn’t “sinful” I don’t know what is) but to not even eat with them. Sounds like NC to ME!
Wits end is right about denial, my egg donor is the best at it, and like Wits’ MIL is willing to punish you if you dont’ go along with her view of “reality.” So, NC to them all. Let them live in their alternate reality, I will face the truth, and it will set me free.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 3:18pm
heavenbound says:
OxDrover,
Please talk more on forgiveness. Past (not happening anymore) is easy for me, Present (still happening daily) is really hard for me, and future (to be seen) would be nice to be more prepared. But mostly that which we still have happening where nc is not possible just yet.
The above article is very helpful, but I would like to hear what the Lord has put in you, on forgiveness, in more detail!
I hope I’m making sense and you can following what I’m asking?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 3:46pm
heavenbound says:
oops, i meant follow not following
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 3:48pm
libelle says:
Dear Sistersister. Thank you for your comments.
My parents also said this to me constantly, regarding my sister who was a real brat when she was little:
“Give in to her; she’s not as strong/smart/clever as you.”
But I can also relate to the statement of your’s:
“I don’t regret that family I never had because of my poor relationship choices. That would have been a very crazymaking family. I have no family today, and that is God’s purpose for me — to give me other opportunities in life and other meaningful ways of relating.
Somebody once observed of me that I was “unconventional.” A kind of relationship hippie. And he described it as healthy, not unhealthy. I have pure honesty — and that was its only fault, really — too much honesty hurts. I was so grateful for this comment! Because “normal” is attracting this psychopathic crap in the name of creating a conventional life. Everybody does it, to some extent. It’s lying to yourself because you want to “make it work” as a “mature” individual rather than a relationship hippie.
Being this hippie has its faults, too, by the way. ”
So true!
I would like to share a song that came into my mind reading your post. Enjoy!
http://www.myvideo.ch/watch/18.....rette_Rien
It translates: “I do not regret a thing, nor the good, nor the bad in my past, I do not care about it anymore. It is payed for, brushed away, forgotten. With my memories I have lit a light, my pains, my pleasures I do not need them anymore. I brushed all my past loves away with all their dramas. I start again at “Zero. Because my joy, my life starts today with you”.
You=my new ME.
It is one of my absolute favourites, and knowing that the French singer Edith Piaf had a most miserable life herself makes this song very believable.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 3:50pm
sistersister says:
I think that love does conquer all, Isabell. We just got the wrong idea of what love is. It’s OK to go on loving a person; that doesn’t mean he gets to sleep in your house, eat your food, or rape your daughter. Love him by leaving him. Show your love by loving the whole world instead of pouring love down a black-hole-of-a-person. Bear all things, including your struggle to love yourself.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 4:12pm
Isabell says:
OxDrover,
“…MIL is willing to punish you if you dont’ go along with her view of “reality.”
And, to this a therapist explained, is the markings of a cult-like family system.
My ex MIL also extremely religious, and not at all spiritual. Uses the Bible to control other’s. In fact, both sets of my ex’s parents (mother-step dad, father-step mom) attend Chruch regularly. I often wonder what Bible they read, when the way they “use” other’s for their own edification, and the way they “use” the Holy Scripture to justify their form of abuse.
The step-grandmother to my children (the one that has been the most involved with the kids and initially the most protective) switched sides. Why? She had told the ex to improve his relationship with the kids, or she would have nothing to do with his g/f. With that, he cried. Apparently, crying absolves one of all the hurt they’ve caused others.
The step-grandmother then preaches to the kids that they need to have forgiveness, because Jesus forgives, and who are we that we don’t forgive. The kids explained that forgiveness isn’t the issue. The issue is that he continues to lie about them to the extended family, creating drama, and says mean and hurtful things. He violates their boundaries. To this the step-mother encouraged the kids to tell their father how they feel. They did (and, in a very loving, compassionate way, I might add). Within minutes, a message was left on my cell. As soon as the kids got off the phone with their father, having talked to him the way the S-GM suggested, the ex did exactly what the kids asked him to stop doing – He called the S-GM, sobbing, claiming the kids dragged him through the mud. To this, the S-GM called, leaving a message on my cell, stating that she is going to “Cut the kids out” of her life. Her words were, “Tell the kids that there will be no more Christmas’s presents, no more Birthday presents, no more holiday together with the family, no more nothing! They way they treat their father is horrible. And, I will not stand for it. They said they are tired of being hurt. Well, I’m tired of being hurt, too. I’m done.”
Ok…wait! She preached to the kids about forgiveness, and how they should forgive their father, and become actively involved in a realtionship with him, again. When the kids tell their father of his behavior that brings so much drama in the family as the main reason why they don’t want to spend time with him. He hangs up with the kids, calls the S-GM and creates more drama, causing the S-GM to call back, on the very same day she preached to the kids about forgiveness, and cuts the KIDS out of her life, because the kids asked their father to stop spreading rumors, lies and gossip about them. The kids didn’t want to spend time with their dad because he was hurting them, psycholgically, emotionally, and socially within the family system. Their GM cuts them out of her life…because??? What crime did the kids commit that warrents them unworthy of the forgivenss their GM was preaching about? It’s all very crazy making.
And, more importantly…when did this become about her, anyway?
So back to the original point…there is a great deal of punishment, and/or threat of alienation, rejection, humiliation, redicule, and elimination of resources in this family system when their alternative reality isn’t subscribed to.
Wow! This has been insightful for me. I have had moments when I feel sad that the kids don’t have a relationship with their GP’s, and have contemplated ways to help reunify the kids with them. After writing this, I’m thinking…WHY?
We are better off with NC to them all!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 4:18pm
sistersister says:
Hallelujah Jesus.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 4:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
I second “sistersister’s” comment! Hallelujah Jesus!!@!!!!!!!
The thing is that there is ONE set of rules for THEM and another set for US. It is okay to punish us if we don’t follow the rules they lay down for US but they do NOT have to follow those rules. Makes sense to me! NOT!!!!
Your kids are better off not to be associated with such a cult-like family system. Believe me, I have felt 110% better, been happier and healthier since I quit trying to make sense of the crazy making and religiousity that my egg donor preaches.
As far as the smearing, yep! check! the dupes believe everything she says because she is so ’saintly”–but I see what is behind the mask.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 5:12pm
persephone7 says:
sistersister: What you said about love, that said so much, so much about
what we’ve all needed to do.
All I know, whether we’re strong or smart, sometimes I just would not trust
my better judgment, bottom line! Trust my own gut, bottom line…Things
he did were so bizarre at times, but depending how emotionally strong or
needy I was at the time, I might be the red rock and call him on it or be
the painfully submerged grey rock, too stomped into the ground from past
stuff to respond, or eventually even care in a way.
It’s like our ‘better judgment’ and even a bit of hubris makes us look at
the situation like a kind of Columbo puzzle to solve – thinking “I WILL get
to the bottom of this – situation, behavior, whatever…But now when one
of these kind of weird scenarios comes up, probably will with someone
down the road, if it’s quacking, if it’s red-flagging me, I’m going to leave
it to some other poor, compassionate soul out for the rollercoaster
ride of her/his life! My detective days are over, I’m curlin’ up with a
good book…
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 5:55pm
sistersister says:
Good advice, Persephone. I need to get over my figuring-it-all-out addiction!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 6:08pm
skylar says:
sister and libelle
that is exactly what my p-parents told me every day of my life regarding my p-baby sister.
“Give in to her; she’s not as strong/smart/clever as you.”
They made me the “caretaker” in the family. P’s are all parasitical, even P’s like my P-parents that work really hard to earn a living.
I never thought of them that way before, but now I see that they are cowbirds too. They made me take care of the P-sister and forced me to allow myself to be abused by her.
That’s why I can’t focus unless I’m doing something for someone else. Funny though, I remember a time in my life when I was about 13 through 17 when I was more self centered. I need to get in touch with that “me”
Thank you, sister, for putting this into words that could reach me and gave me more food for thought. That’s what’s so great about LF. We all struggle with thoughts and feelings for which we have no words. Like Stargazer said, until we name something, we can’t own it. Together, we come up with words that define our feelings and thoughts, then we share them and empower each other. Amazing.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 6:24pm
banana says:
Isabelle,
OMG
I have Proverbs 26:3-5 on my bathroom mirror.
It reminds me, (although EVERYONE HERE KNOWS I”M STILL LEARNING) not to repond to my S.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 7:53pm
ICthruhim says:
This was a great post, because regret is what I find myself caught up in these days. I have been lurking here for almost a year – this is my first post. I wanted to say that I have spent so much time on this site reading the posts, and it has been such a great help to me in my healing process.
I would like to write about my experience in more detail later, but that’s what has kept from posting this whole time is wanting to have my story all together first.
So I will just briefly sum it up by saying that my SP is now in prison for choking my son (his stepson)- he was 12 at the time. Thank God my son is ok, no permanent physical damage – however I can’t say the same about the pyschological damage.
I’m finally divorced from him. The incident took place with my son on Nov 13, 2008 – from that point on I have maintained no contact – and this site has been great for reaffirming my decision to have no contact. My nightmare with him lasted 3 years – and today I feel completely robbed of those years – many times thinking where my life would be now if I had not accepted that first date.
I know healing from this a long-term process. Some days I feel like I’ve come a long way, and other days it feels like it all just happened yesterday.
Even though I haven’t actively particpated until now, this website has been a great source of support for me because my family can’t possibly understand what this done to me even though they try to.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 6:17pm
shabbychic says:
ICthruhim, Hello! Glad you posted. Your brief summary sounds horrible, you and your son will be in my prayers, thank God the SP is in prison! A lot of us here are going through good days and bad days too and I have personally been living in the world of regrets lately and am struggling to get out also! I guess we all wonder what would have happened if we had taken a different road, maybe that’s part of our human nature. Hope you keep writing, I learn a little bit from each person here! As you know, after reading for a year, we learn about ourselves, not just them! I’m happy to meet you!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 6:44pm
amber says:
Welcome ICthruhim…glad you had the courage to make your voice heard. Being here and letting your feelings and stories out will be such a great release for you, as well as a learning process.
So sorry to hear what your ex did to your son. But the good news is, your so is ok, the ex is locked away, and you’re taking the steps to educate yourself and move on. Continute the NC and stay strong. You too will learn lessons from this. Welcome. Glad you’re here!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 7:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear ICthruhim,
I would like to add my WELCOME here as well. I’m glad that LF has helped you in your recovery. I know that it has meant so much to me. I learn more every day. Some days I take a back step, but more often than not, I feel like I have been “reborn” and my old life, my pain, the nightmare(s) are behind me.
I am glad tha tyou were able to get the attack on your son prosecuted and him in prison (where he deserves to be) I hope you and your son are able to support each other in your healing paths.
Again, welcome, and please do add your voice to the rest of us, each story is important, though there are so many similarities, but nonetheless EACH voice is very important. (((hugs)))) and my prayers for you and your son.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 7:35pm
ICthruhim says:
Thank you all for your warm welcomes and kind words. I will take all the prayers I can get! Although my son is ok physically, pychologically he did not fare as well. The horrible incident that occured was finally drastic enough to make me open my eyes, however there had been much verbal and mental abuse toward me and my son leading up to that day. So my son had quite a breakdown after we got the SP out, and he has been in theraputic mentoring home. It was another painful thing to go thru, but I hope to have him back home with us next year. My youngest son who was 8 at the time witnessed the whole event, and suffered anxiety attacks for a while, but is doing well now. My daughter who was 17 at the time also witnessed most of it, and as I was getting him out of my home that morning, he finished everything off by saying incredibly filthy and vile things to my daughter! So none of us went untouched, but we are working on healing together as a family. My 3 kids and I all pulled together and all testified at the trial which was also incredibly stressful, but for once some justice was served! Thanks again for letting me share. One thing I am thankful for is that we had no kids together
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:37pm
ErinBrock says:
ICthruhim:
WELCOME darling! Welcome.
Sorry for your experience, but I’m glad you have chosen to stand up, protect yoruself and your son and continue the healing process and journey into enlightenment!
Learn, remain strong, educate and protect you and yours.
We’d love to hear from you, thanks for having the courage to join us!!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:39pm
Rosa says:
Hi ICthruhim:
…”my SP is now in prison”..
Wow, I wish I could say that.
I am glad you decided to take the plunge and post with us.
You are in a really good place.
I love your name.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:12am
Sarasims says:
It’s been several days since I’ve been here. And I’m in such dire straits! HE’S BACK! But is he! After 2 months NC and the last encounter him telling me to leave him the fuck alone and NEVER call or text him EVER again…..after him kicking me in the stomach he’s back! He called and simply said….check your messages. In them he wrote how he was so wrong and so sorry. That I had some really mean things but they made him open his eyes. That the OW had lured him in with her money and he had been blinded – that he should have known better. I listened and he kept telling me how much he loved me. But the instant I softened (and I did)…..two days later he’s acting like before. He doesn’t want to talk but he answers my text and gives me an excuse. I know where this is going but I don’t want to take a chance to mess things up.
WHY is that?? I could be in the drivers seat……say FUCK YOU and tell him to leave me alone for good.
My love for him was so real but he’s proved that it didn’t mean anything by making the choices he made. So why do I keep allowing myself to fall back. I always say love doesn’t die…it fades. And I can prove to him that we can be good together. But why? And WHY does he keep coming back and saying these things? What is wrong with him?
I’m rambling on and lost all over again. When he called I shook and my stomach got sick! Why this control???
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 9:49am
witsend says:
Sarasims,
It is difficult to maintain no contact and at the same time check messages, text, emails, phone calls…
If you truly want to remain N/C you need to erase messages without listening, delete emails and text without reading etc.
OR better yet change your number and email account.
Otherwise he will have the power to lure you right back into his web.
Given an inch…..He will take a mile. You can’t give him that inch.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:06am
OxDrover says:
Dear Sasra Sims,
you WANT to believe the lie, but you KNOW IT IS A LIE, and yet you sooooo want to believe it.
The whole relationship was a lie, on HIS PART, on your part it was a FANTASY. Sure it is hard to give up that fantasy, it hurts to realize there is NO SANTA CLAUS, and even if there was, HE IS NOT IT.
All the excuses in the world won’t erase the TRUTH, and the truth is that HE LIED TO YOU, HE HURT YOU, HE KNEW HE WAS HURTING YOU AND HE DID NOT CARE.
What more do you need to prove that this man is TOXIC to you? I do not need a crystal ball to tell you that he will do to you AGAIn what he did in the past.
WHY? Because that is what Ps do, they get their “jollies” manipulating people and lying and getting away with it.
Hun there is NOTHING for you to MESS UP, EXCEPT YOUR OWN LIFE, the “relationship” with him is a fantasy!
Sure, it hurts, but STAY NC and do what WITs told you to. DO NOT READ, not listen, and stay NC 110%. It is for your own protection. Believe me, my dear, we have been there, we know how it hurts to let go of the LIE. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you! STAND STRONG. You can do it!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:18am
Donna Andersen says:
Sarasims,
Please understand that you need to look at breaking off with him as you would breaking an addiction.
This is literally true. Sociopaths instinctively know how to manipulate their victims in a way that causes psychological attachments and even chemical changes in the brain. These chemical changes, Dr. Liane Leedom has written, follow the same pathways in the brain as drug and alcohol addictions.
That is why it is so difficult. You might want to read:
Why you can be addicted to a sociopath
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....nd-liking/
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:32am
skylar says:
Sarasims,
You cannot afford to have contact with your mythological creature while you still believe his lies. His lies have a magical spell on you and untill the spell is broken you can’t see him for what he is. Everything is foggy and unclear.
The way to break the spell is to read more books on narcissism or go to the sociopath websites and get your fill of magical creatures there. Your mind has not fully understood what he is. When it does, you won’t have any problems.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 11:17am
Sarasims says:
It’s crap bc all I wanted was for him to be here doing this so that I could throw it in his face and “get even”. Kick him when he’s down!!! But when the opportunity presents itself – I DONT have the courage to do it!!! I hate myself for that!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:10pm
skylar says:
Don’t get mad and don’t get even. I’m glad you didn’t. it’s what he wants. he wants your emotion. ANY emotion is good, he’ll take whatever you have to offer because in the end, he’s working toward getting you mad, upset, despairing. DON’T GIVE HIM ANY EMOTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you must give him something, call him a sociopath, a baby in diapers and laugh and then hang up.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:18pm
Isabell says:
Today, is not a good day.
His father baught our stocks of a business. It was a community asset. He paid us each seperately, and signed a promissory Note. he has stopped paying me. Now, insisting that it was my ex’s his son’s soul property. Though this claim won’t hold up in court…I support the kids with these funds.
My ex was ordered to pay x amount per month in support. Because that amount is “uncharacterized” I can’t get Child Support Division to collect. He’s not paying. This will hurt him, in the long run… in the short run, my utilities are going to be shut off.
I was unemployed as of May this year. I interviewed and poured my resume out everywhere. Then, I had to have foot surgery. One of the companies called me back. I went to three interviews with them. They said, when you are healed, we have a position for you. I called, and said I was available October 19th. The Regional Manager said their is a position for me, but she wanted for me to have no further follow up appointments regarding my foot. I had two more appointments. The branch manager came back from maternity leave. We played telephone tag. I left her two voice messages and an e-mail. She wrote back.. The position has been filled.
My unemployment runs out in two weeks. I don’t have the means to pay my cell phone bill. My cell phone is my life line to the kids, and potential jobs.
My heart is pounding so hard, I feel like I’m going to pass out.
I don’t know what to do.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:37pm
Sarasims says:
But when I spoke to him….when he called, I was polite, nice, sympathetic. The way I ALWAYS am. Bc that’s me. I want to believe. He even said “believe in me…..because it’s true and I want only you.” Why do I feel this overwhelming desire to believe. Bc I am a fool. I think I will win this game but I never will. It’s true…..it’s an addiction. I would like for it to be real but I know it can’t be. It’s my sick illusion that it could ever be real. I know where this is going. And it does make me mad bc I’m LETTING it happen. Isn’t it funny? I know what’s going to happen but for the high of feeling good, feeling loved by him once again, I let it happen.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:39pm
Isabell says:
My oldest daughter said, “Call Dad and Demand he pay you something. I am absolutely NC with him.
The witholding of funds to force me to gravel is exactly what they intended.
I did send an e-mail message to my attorney asking him to contact my ex’s attorny and the attorney for the kids, to see if they can light a fire under him to at least provide for the very basic human necessities, like keeping my utilities on.
I have a $100 gift card to albertson’s that was given to me as payment for watching a friend’s dog. This is all the money I have to pay for groceries for three kids, for the next two weeks.
While I’m on the threshold of nailing his sorry A*s to the wall, I’m at the absolute end of my resources to sustain myself and the kids until the final judgement comes through.
Any advise?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:41pm
Sarasims says:
When he comes back, and I try to be mean and ignore him, (his calls, his texts)….he begs me not to be that way. But when the shoe was on the other foot and I begged him to just talk to me……he cursed me and told me to stay away from him. Like I was a bad horrible person. He kicked me in the stomach like it was nothing at all.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:42pm
ErinBrock says:
Sarasims:
See dear…the thing is….you DID get ‘even’, your away from him. Only by keeping NC will you be able to see what he has done and the way it was played….and this will confirm your NC over and over.
YOU already WON!
Your letting your fear rule your life…..take control of you and allow yourself the space you need to see the forest from the trees.
You ask ‘why is it’……it’s because you were/are programmed for hope….you keep hoping that YOU misread him and he really IS a decent person…..
You know you wouldn’t treat others in this fashion, so you allow yourself to doubt.
This is the ‘hook’ that keeps most of us around…crumbeling at their feet……and once they know they ‘got us’…it goes back to the old cycle and we are left questioning ourselves as you are doing currently.
It’s a cycle…and only WE can see what we must do to break it.
We are not going to get closure, we are not going to end this relationship with any ‘rational’ ending……they all end in NO CONTACT!
It’s self preservation…..let’s face it….if they had feelings like others…..and could communicate and come to ratianal decisions…..WE WOULDN”T BE IN THIS SITUATION.
Sara, don’t beat yourself up…….just get back on the NC horse and move forward, allow the grieving to happen and embrace each feeling and learn how your respond and feel during your journey……
It’s a process girl….it’s a process.
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:45pm
shabbychic says:
Isabelle, the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that unemployment has been extended many times by the government, I think you could get another 26 weeks ++
That is what I have heard on the news, I don’t know what state you are in. Please check that out too, I know it’s not much, but it’s something.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:48pm
OxDrover says:
Dear sara,
When you don’t let him contact you you are NOT “being mean” for goodness sakes! If a rattle snake bit you would you pick it up juist because it said “I love you?” Of course not, and he is the SAME THING a POISON SNAKE….
Isabelle,
It is POSSIBLE that your unemployment will be extended because of the recession. Check on that.
Two contact social services, wel fare, food stamps, whatever is available, go to a food pantry.
This is exactly why he is doing this to you to drive you to bankruptcy and poverty so he can laugh his arse off at “getting” to you. He doesn’t care if his kids starve, in fact, he likes it that you are in a problem.
You did right by contacting the attorney instead of going to HIM directly.
Call lDHS and see if they will help you or child enforcement or any agency you can think of.
Check with ACORN and see if they will pay your utilities, also the utility companies have some “help” available too, call them and tell them your problem see if there is some help.
Contact your religious group and see if there is anything available through that. Dobn’t despair (I know that is difficult) and just do the best you can. You and your children are in my prayers! Love Oxy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:51pm
Sarasims says:
So everytime I have contact with him…..I feel like I’ve screwed up. Like I’m starting over. But I have NOT seen him and we have not been intimate. And when that has happened in the past it really messes me up. So I feel like Im teetering here. I did ignore his initial calls ….didn’t answer the phone, ignored his texts but he kept sending them and I kept reading. His begging me to speak to him and I did! I’m swimming and feeling like I’m drowning here. I wanted to hear his voice wanted him to call but when he didn’t….at least I knew where I stood…..on my own two feet. When he did, I feel lost all over again.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
shabbychic says:
sarasims, for me, I was never able to tell them to get out, except with the S I was involved with for a year, when I realized what I was doing and what he was I was on the floor crying. When he calls, don’t answer the phone, you will feel stronger each time you do this, and he will know exactly what you are doing and be pissed because he has no control over you anymore, he thinks you are going to come crawling back, you are not going to get the relief you seek from him, it’s only inside of you, you have to love yourself and be able to give yourself those feelings of being loved and being worthwhile, don’t look into his eyes for your self worth.
The S did call me about a month ago, I answered a blocked number, I was very nice (fake) then he started calling everyday, I stopped answering the phone, and this is a man who is dying of liver cancer/cirrhosis — needs a liver transplant. I know he just wanted something from me, MONEY, he asked me “are you alone” because they know if someone is with us they will knock some sense into our head.
You’ve come a long way, we know how tough it is, just the few times I talked to the S triggered me right back into places I didn’t want to revisit in my mind, I was upset all over again. If you have decided that you don’t want to be conned again then don’t answer the phone or look at messages. Is he calling because the OW kicked him out?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:59pm
Sarasims says:
Erin – you are right. I am full of fear right now. Bc I know how I am. And I am terrified. I can read it in my posts…..rambling, trembling…..and you are right about me wanting to think I misread him. I keep trying to find the good in things he’s done. I keep thinking it was all a big misunderstanding. I mean, I am such a caring and loving person – why wouldn’t he want me over her? She’s slept with several other men during the time they were together, talked about him behind his back….btw she’s a SP too. Why in the world wouldn’t he want a woman that would move the sun, earth and stars to make him happy. I would do anything for him and he knows that. So why wouldn’t he want me….that’s what he used to tell me in the beginning….so why wouldn’t it be true? I just misread him! I can’t let this happen to me again.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:06pm
Sarasims says:
SC – he is no longer with the other woman bc he says she was f**cking 3 other guys and then was talking about him behind his back. A friend 3 wayed him in and he heard it for himself. He said she poisoned his mind against me and tried to make me look bad…..like I was out to hurt him and he was blinded by this bc she had money and was paying his bills during a rough time in his life. I told him “it doesn’t feel very good to have the person your with screwing around on you – does it??” but I know it meant nothing. He just doesn’t want to be alone and he knows that I am full of forgiveness and love. And I’ve always accepted him back!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:11pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sara,
Hun, every time you listen to him you are having CONTACT. It will set you back. He is trying to drag you back into the FOG. (Fear Obligation and Guilt) and when you listen, or read, you are going there, he is CONTROLLING you and HE knows it.
When you refuse to listen to him (or read) you are controling YOURSELF and he can’t stand that, HE WANTS TO CONTROL YOU. Not love you, not share with you, to CONTROL YOU LIKE A PUPPET. You are the same to him as SHE is, Just a puppet to control and he LOVES THAT. It doesn’t matter if you are telling him to F* off, you are talking to him. You are encouraging him.
Sure,l he will come back and come back and come back, but in the end, he wil lgo away ONLY IF YOU DON’T ALLOW HIM IN. DON’T LISTEN TO HIM.
Every time you listen you go back to SQUARE ONE OF PAIN, fear, and doubt! STOP IT!!! NOW! TODAY! (((hugs)))) prayers and my compassion. I know it hurts. oxy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:12pm
Sarasims says:
It just makes me second guess myself like I expect too much?? I mean can life really be like a fairytale?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:13pm
ErinBrock says:
Isabelle:
It’s time to look for resources……do all you can, contact every agency and MOST importantly…..DO NOT LET YOUR FEAR PARALYZE YOU!!!!!
All the agencies that Oxy mentioned offer services…..BTW…..none of the utilities get turned off immediately.
I have gone 2-3 months without paying phone/cell/water/electric and gas……yeah, the threats of shut off is unnerving…..but it won’t happen immediately!
Don’t allow him to pigeon hole you and the kids……
It won’t serve him well…….. in court and make sure you are documenting in a journal, dates times and behaviors……
Recite the serenity prayer…..
And realize……99.9% of things we worry about are in vain…..your doing all you can, don’t let it take you down…..things will come around for you….have faith….you all will be OKAY! Try to find some peace…..and don’;t let the snowball of worry, turn into an avalanche.
XXOO
EB
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:19pm
shabbychic says:
Sarasims, I spent 14 years with a man (who I now consider an N with mild Aspergers) and the entire time I felt something was not quite right, but I hung in there, caring, giving, supportive, everything I could do to be wonderful, hoping and waiting for him to change… until he finally moved out because he did not see any benefit in staying with me anymore… he couldn’t be a complete parasite anymore. Please don’t do this to yourself. Love is not supposed to be like that.
You listed all the reasons he should want to be with you, and those strengths of ours are exactly why they want to be with us, but the thing that is missing on his part is… love, compassion, a desire to take care of you, fidelity, truth.
Everytime he leaves the house you are going to wonder where he is going and who he’s going to be with? Can you live like that? Questioning everything he does? Afraid to go anywhere because if you are not home he will go out? Spend that time looking for a good man — if that’s what you want.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:19pm
shabbychic says:
sarasims, “bc she had money and was paying his bills during a rough time in his life”… this is an S, this is what I was stuck with, a real man does not have women paying their bills, do you really think he cares that she was screwing 3 other guys? She means nothing to him, he was probably screwing 5 other women. She threw him out, he is using the pity ploy on you.
Even though the man I was with has become so ill in the last 6 months, I still want him to come over here and tell me he loves me and can’t be without me, I still want to believe it, but I am being strong in my convictions, in my knowledge, in my truth.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:28pm
skylar says:
Sara, yes life can be like a fairytale. Fairytales are simple metaphors for the complexity of real life. So instead of talking about Narcissism, you just talk about the wicked step mother or the evil troll under the bridge or the vampire that sucks your blood.
If you read, “why is it always about you” you will begin to picture your xP as an evil, hideous, foul, slimeball wearing a “people suit” with a zipper in the back. He can unzip it and step out of his “people costume” and you will see the real booger that he is.
Ok, so maybe there’s no real zipper in the back but metaphorically speaking, there is. When he is talking to you, emailing or texting you, you must maintain an image of this dual personality. YOU MUST remain cognizant of the very real monster inside the people suit at every moment. I know that they seem perfectly real, you can’t even see the zipper if you look for it. BUT IT’S REALLY THERE. Keep hold of that in your mind. HE ISN’T REAL. HE IS ACTING. ALL THE TIME.
When you are finally able to maintain those 2 images in your mind simultaneously and BELIEVE that there is a monster inside his skin, you will be free of his control.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:32pm
Sarasims says:
You all are so well versed here. I can see that I’m moving in the right direction but I’m not there yet. Bc at least Im here now (this time) trying to convince myself that my assessment of him is spot on. Whereas before, I never gave it a second thought. Although I did speak to him, my mind was reeling the entire time saying don’t let this happen. Don’t do it. Don’t let him do this to YOU. Telling myself to be strong. I want to be strong. It’s like my inner self fighting good vs. evil. And I can feel it. I can feel the battle raging and I want to believe him, I want to feel the feelings BUT I want to be here for you guys to say NO WAY and remind me of the little things I haven’t yet learned. I feel like I’m steps ahead of where I was before but still weak. I’m going to buy the book WHY IS ALWAYS ABOUT YOU today!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:34pm
shabbychic says:
Sarasims, any of this advice has come from hard fought battles with ourselves, I am certainly not trying to come across as all cool, calm and collected. I kept a journal during the year I was with the S, I was screaming at myself to STOP STOP STOP, I loaned him money, I tried to be everything he wanted in a woman, I was here at LF before I even met him and I just shoved all the info I learned into the back of my brain because I wanted this guy that bad and I just did not “GET IT”. I hit the wall at Christmas… no call, New Years Eve… no call, but afterwards? Still calling and coming over needing money. That was when I was on the floor crying, I knew I had to take care of myself, I was completely lost in a whirlwind, couldn’t even think, I don’t want to go back there, that’s why I don’t answer the phone, of course I want to talk to him. I started out saying NO when he asked to borrow money, I was scared — of course, that he would go away, but I felt stronger each time I did it, he did start distancing himself and I went NC for ME.
Someone here at LF wrote to me that they are PREDATORS, and you really have to let that SINK IN, like a cunning lion stalking his prey… PREDATORS, they size you up, figure out how giving and compassionate you are, then pounce. Jeez, I’m scaring myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:56pm
skylar says:
SARA, good for you.
I’ve recommended that book to so many people, it makes me wish I was getting a percentage!!
But actually I’m just sooooo grateful to the author Sandy Hotchkiss, for writing it. I’m grateful to everyone who has had the courage to write or speak about narcissism and doesn’t just sweep this tsunami under the rug. You know, a tsunami doesn’t have a wave on the surface until it comes near the shore. Before then, the water travels quickly but doesn’t rise until it crashes on the shore and wreaks destruction. I think the wave of narcissism and sociopathy in our world is like a tsunami with no warning, coming closer to the shore every minute.
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 2:57pm
Sarasims says:
Thank you all for continuing to be here for all of us – to be here for each other. Of course, this morning, I knew this was the first place I needed to be. It’s the only place that makes me feel calm and at ease. Bc I know you all will encourage and not pass judgement bc you’ve been here before. Some people who don’t understand look at you like your crazy. Are you honestly still hanging on to this?? But they don’t understand the control they have. I have to keep reminding myself……all I wanted for the past two months was for him to call. To feel like it meant something. And even though I know it is all lies, HE had to be the one crawling back and apologizing….EVEN if he didn’t mean it. Not once in those two months did I call him or try to contact me. I didn’t give him the satisfaction to beg for him. I should be pleased at what happened and enjoy the feeling of him coming back yet again – BUT this time……show him nothing! And let it go. Let him go and be done with it. I should feel satisfied that I make this final decision…..not him.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:25pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sara,
Another book you should read is the Betrayal Bond. The attachment we have to them (they are unable to attach in a normal way, if they do attach it is as a tick on a dog, as a parasite) but it literally chemically changes our brains. It is also called “stockholm syndrome” where it was first observed and written about in a case where some hostages of bank robbers after only 2 days or so literally attacked the cops who rescued them. Two of the women actually married the robbers 10 years later when they got out of prison.
Patty Hearst also had it when she was kidnapped by the pseudo-political criminals in the 70s. Read about her experiences. It doesn’t have to be so dramatic, but the abuse actually bonds us to them. Look at Elizabeth Smart and the girl who was just rescued after 19 years of being kidnapped.
It is not your “fault” that you are hooked on him like an illegal drug, but you CAN kick the habit and recover. You MUST kick the habit in order to survive and be whole. YOU CAN DO IT! (((hugs)))) and my prayers for you, sweetie!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:00pm
banana says:
Sarasisms,
OOOhhhhhhh. Sara.
I know all too well the pain, the struggle, your heart tells you one thing you mind tells you another.
Listen to your intellect here!
I have been there. Oxy knows. It was awful. Recoverya after a run-in ;like this is worse than the initial recovery, because when you first got away you didn’t know what you were dealing with. Now you know and you will only have yourself to blame for what you ALLOWED him to do to you KNOWING what evil he is. IN this sinful earth HE IS EVIL.
I am dealing with my P everyday. Yes it was nice when he groveled to come back, but it’s insane how addictive it really is. Everything in my mind was telling me he’s a sociopath!!!!!!
It’s all part of the plan, but it was sooooo nice “feeling” loved.
IT’s a hoax!!!!! Think about what a man who was truly capable of love would do and say. Chances are he is doing and saying none of those!!!
Dear. I have a child with my P.
NC is almost impossible. I must relay info on my son. negotiate flu shots and get harrassed about bruises and threatened about calling CPS.
If you have NO CHILDREN with this P….BLOCK his calls, BLOCK his texts. and do it noww!!!!!
YOU CAN DO IT. YOU WILL BE FREE.
Hugs and prayers
Proverbs 26
He is a FOOL
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:19pm
banana says:
BTW- Let HIM make the final decision!
If you make the decision he will always want to come back. HE DOES WANT YOU, he wants YOU and THE OW And ALL the other OW. he LOVES NONE of you.
LET Hims leave. he wants to hurt you. YOU winning will only cause him to want to come back again so he can HURT YOU.
Just let it GO…Like they have said already.
if you are looking for CLOSURE there is no closure. there is only NC.
GO NC NOW.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:26pm
ICthruhim says:
I truly think that NC was one of the hardest things for me to do. Even after the horrible incident, there was a part of me that just wanted to tell him off and make him see what he had done. It took alot for me to understand that there would be absolutely no point in any of that. It was hard for me to convince myself that it was enough that I knew what had happened. Of course while he was out on bail, he was unrelentless is his attempts to contact me, even spreading lies about my family to clients of mine. He continued to break the No Contact order as part of his release conditions, and I continued to report it, and after a couple of months, the courts finally revoked his bail while awaiting trial – that was a relief!
However, just a couple of weeks ago, he was transferred from prison to a county jail in order to be present for hearings on probation violations. Ironically enough, he was on felony probation for dui’s when he was convicted of the felony for attacking my son.
So once he was transferred to the county jail for the proceedings, there was no restrictions on phone calls and he started calling me again. The 1st call caught me off guard, of course I did not accept the collect call. But he kept calling, so I reported it and filed more charges.
The thing that bothers me the most, is that after all this, there’s still that part of me thats just curious to wonder what in the world would he say to me?? It’s like curiosity killed the cat. So, I still have to fight that urge.
To satisfy my curiosity, I have created the dialogue in my head. Knowing him as well as I do (even though you never really “know” a SP) still I can figure that he would be nice, then probably use some guilt tactics, and end it with requesting that I help him in some way with his appeal.
Of course if it was up to me, I’d be happy if he was serving a life sentence to protect society from him. He contributes nothing, and only leaves a trail of pain and destruction.
Sometimes I think it would be entertaining to hear what he has to say – then I realize that’s the part of me that is still denial. The part of me that thinks that I could have really have the upper hand with a SP. I keep reminding myself the only way to have the upper hand with a SP and move on with my life is through ABSOLUTELY NC!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:42pm
banana says:
Sara maybe this will help.
I received these texts in July (one month after he was served)
10:04 am “banana, I can’t tell you how sorry i am for what i have done to u, but please understand i do love you and care for you. Even though you have hurt me threw our son. You have accused me of abusing my son and i still care for you. i love our son with every beat of my heart just as you do. Why cant we work something out instead of being nasty like this. Is this gonna be good for my son when he gets older. I know your mad at me but please dont take my son from me. I only see him 2 and a half days a week. What do i need to do my son for this to stop. Please take some time to think about this without your anger being in the way. If i could start over i would change what i did i would. But whats done is done. Im hurting too. I just hope you can open up your heart forgive me for what i have done. Im not a bad person i just made a wrong decision or decisions that now i am paying dearly for. What do u want me to do. How can i make your pain stop.”
10:06 am “You know im not a bad person..”
HE WANTS HIS SON…not me…but he knows if he can convince me that he loves me he will get his son.
HE LOVES NEITHER OF US.
This is what I deal with now.
ME: I believe we should be there around 9pm. I’ll text you as usual at exit 29.
P/S:I made plans since we dont meet till 10:30pm per our agreement so i wont be able to make it till then…i cant text now…when i can i will text u back.
ME: Can I meet you half way tonight or tomorrow? Exit 25?
P/S: Meet at exit 25 ill be there half hour
ME: Ok. I packed clothes for Noah to wear Wed. along with your clothes. If you pack an outfit Wed. I’ll dress him in it for you Thurs. K?
P/S: On oct.22nd i text u at 7am telling u i wanted to pick up baby from daycare early and you complained it was too late of notice but its ok for u to give me an hour notice. I will advise my attorney and law guardian of this and how you continuosly change plans only to benefit you.
ME: Then ill meet you at exit 27 at 10:30
P/S: If u want to continue driving around with baby and play games then feel free…u cry about me giving u an all day notice but u give me an hour notice…u cant expect me to sit around all night waiting for u to decide if and when ur going to drop baby off. Be more responsible.
ME:I want what’s best for baby. I’ll see you in about 10 minutes. We missed the exit.
P/S: Actions speak louder than words…disrupting his sleeping time driving this late at night instead of letting me take him while ur at ur classes like im supposed to have him at 3:30pm and keeping him from his father is not in babys best interest.
Guilt trips…this isn’t even the worst.
PS I avoided taking him back after that episode in July, but I narrowly escaped him after a physical encounter in August.
I have SO MUCH REGRET for giving him exactly what he wanted an OW for his OW…that’s all I was.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:50pm
keensight says:
Dear Gemini Girl – Thanks for sharing the words of Anais Nin
with me awhile back. I meant to thank you back then. It was sweet of you. I ‘ve been thinking a great deal about the analogy you related. I wish had had enough sense a number of years back to realize how true those words are.
I found out first hand that trying to comfort and help someone like that is very dangerous. I didn’t know how to do it in a healthy way. It seemed too cold to just say, ” I’m so sorry
for what you’re going through and I’m sure you’ll find the answer to your dilemna in time.”
Some would say that is a healthy empathetic response. At
the time, it just would have seemed cold and selfish to me,
but now I understand. I got pulled into the deep water when
I tried to provide solace. It has cost me so dearly I can’t even
assess the value of what I’ve lost personally in this situation.
I felt betrayed and hurt. I’m learning the proper balance between healthy self protection and the limits of just what you can or can’t do for someone drowning in ther own personal drama. It’s natural for them to start grasping at those who have shown them any warmth or kindness in the past.
I’ll never forget those words of wisdom. Thanks Gem…
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 9:50pm
skylar says:
IC,
don’t worry about what he would say. They are only capable of 3 responses: charm, pity and rage.
So he would try to charm you by telling you he always loved you. Then he would try to tell you how his heart has been broken. Last of all he might rage at you for betraying him.
An interesting tactic that my xP uses is to bring up something bad he has done, which I’ve accused him of before but he has denied. For instance, a lie he told that I called him on. Then he would attack by saying that I called him a liar. Then he would dare me to call him a liar over and over again. The reason for this is to create a reason inside HIMSELF to be angry. This anger would then excuse any bad behavior that he has planned to do in the future. He even TOLD me that he was doing this. He would say, “Keep calling me a liar because it strengthens my resolve.”
They need details for their stories to make them come true in their own heads. So, of course they will create the drama by pushing your buttons and then the scene is set. You played your part, they have their reason to hate you and are free to do whatever they planned in the first place.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 11:41pm
Isabell says:
Hi Erin and Oxy…
Thank you so much for your encouragement, today. I was really rattled. I have an appointement with one agency tomorrow that I prequalified for assistance on line.
I also received an e-mail asking if I’d be interested in a position (similar to the one given to another), but at a different location. I responded, “Definately.”
I’ll have to go through the whole interview process again with two different managers, so I’m not sure when they will want me to actively start.
I also found out, due to the recession, it is most likely that my benefits will not suddenly stop. There are up to three extentions; though I’m hoping I won’t need them.
I pray tomorrow will be a better day.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:30am
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
I know it’s all very overwhelming….but if we can control our thoughts and not let them get caught up in the ‘media’ scares….and just keep it our personal issues….we do much better.
We can’t hold the world on our shoulders…..ALTHOUGH….as a mother….we can sure hold seveal nations!!!! But not always necessary.
See….there is ALWAYS light, we need to seek it out!
Serenity prayers to you……..
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:40am
Sarasims says:
Oxy – I can’t tell you what your continued words of wisdom mean to me. I plan to get the book you suggest also – TODAY. I’ve heard people refer to the stockholm syndrome but I never looked into it or really knew it’s meaning. But it does make complete sense. It’s so easy to look at someone else in that position and say “I can’t believe they let that happen to themselves” but here I am doing the exact same thing. And when he returns, even though I secretly wanted him to, I find myself in a worse position than if he stayed away. At least I knew the difference btw what was and was not. That first day he was begging me to cave….knew all the right things to say…..missed me more than anything in the world. And as soon as his plan worked and I was sharing and talking with him he was satisfied. Now he has disappeared and could care less whether he talks to me or not. I just DONT understand that. He gets my hopes up and I believe that he is so excited to have me back in his life then everything else is a priority over me. I know the trend well….and although I thought I was prepared for this……I DONT and CANT understand why he would do that. Why is it important that I am accepting of him….then he not care to talk to me? I’m trying to understand….the trend is there…..but every time he changes it up a bit!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:09am
Sarasims says:
banana – thank you for sharing…..YES, all of you have so much to offer that helps. The sad part is that we only have grief and pain to share other than some joyous event.
Tuesday morning the phone rang and being an unmarked number, I didn’t have any idea. But then my stomach sank, my heart pounded and I found myself trembling! I kept repeating to myself…..”do not let him do this, do not let him do this….you are prepared. You know better!” But in the end, I read every msg and it started all over again. Today I begin NC again. I will tell myself that I am satisfied with his begging and let it be. I will let go. This is only a game to him and I know that. I will not play it again. And luckily, we do not share children, although he shares plenty of them with OW! Imagine that! How do we always pick the losers!
God bless and thank you for being here with me.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:21am
OxDrover says:
Dear Sara,
Our emotions go all over the scale, and it is the grief process, but in the bargaining stage of grief we keep thinking “if I would just do so and so, I wouldn’t have to suffer this loss (of him) maybe I can make it work” Of course it does NOT work, but we are back to square one because we must ADMIT, THE RELATIONSHIP IS DEAD. I cannot resurrect it and if I did, it would kill ME.
Also google and look at Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s Grief Process and look at the stages she describes. This is what you are experiencing, GRIEF over a “loss”—a GOOD loss but none the less a LOSS.
Hang in there sweetie, it WILL GET BETTER WITH NC, I promise you. I can make that promise and I know it will happen if you just stay with NC. (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:48am
Sarasims says:
Thank you Oxy! I’m hanging on to your promise!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 11:01am
OxDrover says:
Dear Sara,
As you have time, go back through the archived articles, they are divided by author and by general subject like “breaking free from the sociopath” or “healing” or “understanding” Start with any way you want to arrange them, but read ALL of them, and there iare a bunch of them! Each article you read (just read the article and don’t worry about the comments at this point) There is a WORLD of information there that will help you in every as[ect of breakign free. It won’t be easy, but NC is the ONLY way to keep on the road and not backk track. You will flip flop on your emotions from day to day and sometimes minute to minute but this is NORMAL. the articles will give you insights and help you. It is abig LEARNING PROCESS and as you get those “ah ha” moments which you will, you can apply those to what you already know and put them to WORK in your life!
Sometimes it feels like untangling a hopelessly tangeled piece of string, but as more and more is unwound, it gets progressively easier. ((((hugs)))) and God bless you.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 11:23am
banana says:
Sarasisms.
Why can’t you just block him?
Do you have any reason to HAVE to communicate with this man?
Seriously. I am thinking of getting a restraining order so he can only text about my son’s health. and do exchanges at the state police barracks.
If you want to block texts and calls there are several ways.
it does depend on your provider, but if go to tools-security-you should be able to block all except for those that are in your list of contacts.
Take him out…you con’t need his number.
We understand here. I have slipped up more times than I like to admit. But YOU WILL GET STRONGER EVERYDAY.
I SECOND OXY”S PROMISE. NC is the only door to healing.
Please keep coming here. open up to us, we will not forsake you, no matter how many times you stumble or Oxy has to hit you with the cyber skillet.
I HAVE COME JUST FOR THE SKILLET.
PS YES I have pain, but my SPIRIT IS NOT BROKEN, he only hurts me when i allow him to. MY life outside of him is more than I could ask for : )
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 11:25am
amber says:
sarasisms…ohhhh how I feel what you’re going through. I just read everything and caught up. And I dread the day that my ex S pops back up. I know the difference for me was that my heart wasn’t ready to move on each time I took him back. But the last time, there wasn’t any heart left for him to break. I was broken, empty and numb. My heart is ready to move on now. I hope yours can be too. You KNOW this is a pattern. You have to trust that he will do the same to you again. And I agree..if you don’t have any reason to have contact with him, then block his number and change your email address. Do whatever it takes to keep yourself safe. Stay stong and we’re here for you. HUGS
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:43pm
Sarasims says:
amber and banana – I have no reason to have contact with him other than my heart is breaking into a million pieces and I keep hoping it will be different. Keep praying I can say or do the right thing – show him how a normal good hearted person lives – so that he will want to be a part of that. I can not see this post for my tears bc I AM ALLOWING this to happen. I am allowing for MY SELF DESTRUCTION. I know better but I keep allowing him to do this. He’s been back in contact 4 days and my spirit is gone, I don’t care if it’s daylight or dark, all I want is to talk to him and try to make him see that it could be different. And just like that, he’s gone again. He told me today that he can’t talk to me bc he’s now got to focus on his failed marriage. That his wife is now the most important thing in his life. And that he came back Tuesday bc he needed someone to talk to. But I expect too much – too quickly. When will I hit that brick wall….when will I have no more to give? I want to be cold and callous and GIVE NO MORE!!! But EVERYTIME I PUT MY HEART OUT THERE and accept his crappy apology. And EVERY time I end up suffering.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:11pm
Sarasims says:
I keep holding onto NOTHING! There is nothing there but a distant memory of what was so beautiful. Or what I THOUGHT was so beautiful. I want to be a SP!!! I want to not feel. I want to find it so easy to hate!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:14pm
Sarasims says:
Oxy – I bought the book today! Now I need you to hit me with that skillet and hide me away somewhere for a year so that I can forget all of this!
I see that it’s a never ending learning process – a journey of healing…..but it seems so unfair that it has to go on forever! We did nothing to deserve this horrible sentence that we’re living. We only opened our hearts as wide as we could to someone we thought deserved it.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:19pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sara,
No, darling, you don’t need the skillet up side the head, you are hurting enough now. So the arsehole calls you and talks then decides he is going to work on his failed marriage? BOY! Is she lucky! NOT!!!!!!
Sara, that is why NC IS SO IMPORTANT. Every time you break it, it sets you back to square one, and that is what they are trying to do! It is like a nasty 10 year old teasing a starving dog with a bone! They are not going to let the poor dog have the bone, but oh, how they ENJOY WATCHING THE DOG DANCE AND BEG AND CRAWL for the bone!
He is the WORST KIND OF JERK in the whole world! I know you are better off without him, but at this moment I know it hurts that someone you loved so much, who held out that “bone of love” to you and you wanted it so much, but in the end that “bone of love” turned out to be a piece of plastic. NOT REAL.
A persopn who really loves you does NOT treat you that way any more than the kid holding the bone up to the starving dog.
You are worth so much more than to have someone who is a snake in the grass a piece of dog crap, to torment you. I know right now you don’t feel like it, but YOU ARE>
What kind of MONSTER would torment someone like this? An EVIL monster, that is what! You deserve to be loved for the sweet wonderful woman you are, not to be tortured like this.
One thing I did was to write to my egg donor, and to my P-son and to tell them what I wanted to say—then I tore it up and rewrote it over and over and over, or I would scream it at them like they were in the room, bound and gagged so they couldn’t talk back and I would tell them what they were, and how angry I was and that I was not going to settle for treatment like this.
Saying or writing these things TO them is a lost cause, because they cannot get it, and if they could, they don’t care what you think about them.
It is almost sad/funny, but I wrote to my P son before I finally went NC with his sorry butt, and pleaded with him, begged him, and with my egg donor I literally got on my knees to her and begged her to believe me, not to scorn me, not to devalue me, and it didn’t do a bit of good. In fact, all the letters I wrote to P son came back to bite me in the butt,…and I sounded INSANE in them. heck I WAS INSANE, insane with pain, insane with grief, insane with loss and desperation that my entire life, my egg donor and my son were persecuting me. Sheesh, it is sometimes hard now that I have been NC for quite some time (can’t remember the exact date but about 2 yrs) that I am so FREE and I really do NOT give a rat’s behind about either one of them. Whether they are living or dead, healthy or sick. I am indifferent to what is going on in their lives, and as someone here once said, “the nirvana of indifference.” It was slow coming, but I got there, and I am determined to stay on this healing road.
Go back to the main page and google “oxdrover” and a list of my articles will come up, there is one called “are we there yet” and it is about staying on the healing road and not getting to where we think we are “healed” and instead we jump off into another PIT of a P-relationship.
Once you have been on the road toward healing it does get easier, and there are people here to help you, REAL friends, TRUE friends, who will hold your hand and will lift you up. Will encourage you to stay on the road, and there comes a point someday, it will sneak up on you, and you will REALIZe I am HAPPY! Just like that, you will one day realize that your life is together and you are actually HAPPY. Not because someone else loves you, but because YOU LOVE YOU. Until that time, be careful, don’t even think of dating someone new or that someone else can make you happy. IT IS A DO-IT-YOURSELF project, but YOU CAN DO IT. Sugar, I was 60+ before I started to truly be happy and SECURE in myself. It is wonderful and well worth the wait. ((((hugs))) and God bless you sugar!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:33pm
heavenbound says:
You break my heart, dear soul. I have nothing to offer more valuable then what the others have said and encouraged…but I just want you to know there is another one out here backing you.
I hear myself in your tears and anguish from times past. I know how you feel, the desperation and fear, the heartbreak. I haven’t got to read all of your posts and don’t know your whole story, I’m sorry, but I caught the last couple or so.
NC really does make things better. I know in the past NC did nothing for me.(I knew I would talk to him sooner or later) It was not until I knew that no matter what he tried or said, I would NOT talk to him outside of our son that I had control to make or break NC. Once I decided that for my sanity and health I would not have contact with him (would not break nc), that’s when I started to feel in control of myself and was able to start learning. That’s when I found out what he was and some of what was wrong with me. Now I can heal!
I am so very sorry for your pain. A great big long ((((hug)))) for you, my dear!
Love, hugs, and prayer, heavenbound
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:11pm
heavenbound says:
sorry, that post was for sarasims!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:14pm
Isabell says:
Hello everyone!
Oxy, I was able to get assistance today. It took all day, but was worth it. And, regarding the position I lost, well I have another interview Monday at a different location.
As for TONIGHT… my son is in the 8th grade, and in band. Tonight is the Homecoming game for the adjacent H.S. that my daughter attends. My son’s band always joins the H.S. Band for the Homecoming game.
MY PROBLEM…I’ve managed to avoid having contact with the ex, and even avoided going to my daughter’s Back-to-School night, because he intended to show up, after five years of never going to these. My son informed me that his dad knows about him playing at the HC game. He found out from his band teacher. WHICH MEANS…he will be at the game tonight. His Jezeebel wife’s son goes to the same H.S. Though he’s not in football, nor do they have any interest in football…they have a perfect excuse to be there. My son is stressed out. He doesn’t want his dad to go. And, expecially he doesn’t want to see the Jezeebel at his function. Jezeebel loves to make a big scene. She’s very seductive, dresses in the latest fashions, and makes sure everyone notices her. I’m…well, 70 pounds overwieght, and cannot afford fashionable clothing. And, though I’m told I don’t look my age, I do look wornout. It’s all so very uncomfortable, embarrassig, and intimidating.
Last year, I had an army of supporters with me. This year, my army is busy. I am only going to watch my son play with the H.S. band. It will be just me, my youngest daughter, and my grandson. My H.S. daughter will be off with her friends.
I feel sick to my stomach.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:53pm
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
Stand proud and remember what you went there for!
That’s it…..do not let him and barbi intimidate you…..girl STAND PROUD!!!!
Take some Pepto…..puke and look in the mirror and tell yourself your BEAUTIFUL….BELIEVE IT…..and get your strong ass to that game and strut your stuff with CONFIDENCE and a big smile!!!!
XXOO
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:02pm
Isabell says:
Erin…
LOL, you crack me up. OH MY GOSH!!! I think you are primed for being a life coach. Wow!!!
Well, I’m back. And, he did show up; just as I expected he would.
He such a stalker. Think if the size of a H.S. stadium. Fortunately, I sat where I could see my son in the sea of band players, off to the side. The FREAK walks up and stands behind my son, says nothing. He gives off such a icky vibe, that even when you don’t know he’s there, the hair on the back of your neck stands up, and you have to look.
Well, my son, the middle child, generally wants peace at any price. So, as his adrenalin rose, he talked himself out of reacting the middle finger expressive kind of way. He walked the couple steps up to his dad and, did that weird “guy” hand shake thing, guys do, then asked…”Why are you here?”
The answer he was given wasn’t, “Because I wanted to see you play with the H.S. band. I’m so proud of you.” No, he was told, “This is my home game.”
HOME GAME? He’s 51 freakin years old, and he NEVER went to the H.S. football games, when we were kids. He hates sports. Suddenly, it’s HIS home game?
My son says, “YOUR home game? Really? Common, that’s just weird.”
His dad responds, “Oh, and Jezeebel is here too, and her demonically possessed son, as well.” Well, ok, he didn’t say this, it’s my description of them, and my kids have said worse. So, anyway…
My son says, “And? Them being here just makes it even weirder.”
His dad, “Weird? Why?”
My son, “Oh, YOU KNOW why this is weird. And, I know that’s exactly why you do it. And, thanks dad, now YOU’ve made me late for my piece. I didn’t invite you. I don’t want you here. I wish you’d get that through your head.”
From my point of view, which was limited… THANK GOD. I could see the expression on the FREAKS face. Without knowing the exact exchange of words until later, I KNEW my son had said something that smacked the cocky, arrogance, overly optomisic, smug smirk off the FREAKS face. He went from trying to appear the ever present, supportive, super involved dad, to the stiff necked, tight lipped, glib, nose in the air, monster that we know him to be.
When the first break came, my son came to me, clearly rattled. “This is MY night. WHY is HE here?” He also expressed wanting to act out in a rather crude hand jester toward Jezeebel, and hoped if he did, his father would push him on the bleachers…desireing to see him get arrested.
Wow!!!… Ummm… hmmmm…. I had to talk him down from this mind set, fast. I told him, “I can see you are really upset that he’s here. And, you are even more upset that he brought his “little family.” If you really want to injure him, then you must do exactly what I say… DO NOTHING!!!!! Don’t look over in their direction. Don’t acknowledge them. Play your heart out. Enjoy your friends. Act as if they are so unimportant that you can’t even see them.
My son told me that Jezeebel kept staring and pointing at him.
He went on to say… “If she tries to talk to me, I’ll….” I interupted him and said… “You’ll be deft. You wont look her in the eyes, you won’t acknowledge her existance. You won’t take the bait. You’ll turn your back, and carry on.
Which is exactly what he did, the rest of the evening.
His older sister was hanging out with her friends, and she explained that the FREAK did the same thing to her. He stood a few feet away, didn’t say anything, just stared at her with a creepy grin on his face. She flashed him her “What’s your problem? look. And, he crumbled into the stone faced, tight lipped, nose in the air, expression.
He slithered away… and remained out of the spot light, the rest of the eveing.
As I played with my youngest daughter and grandson, totally enjoying the two of them, I kept thinking about how uncomfortable I was knowing (on a gut level) that he was going to be there, in contrast to how uncomfortable he’s going to be when the evidence of his “real” intentions about what is best for the kids is exposed (I had to apply for assistance, and qualified, while he just purchased another car, and is refusing to pay court ordered support), along with his violation of Minute Orders, and Stipulations. I started to enjoy the fact that they crashed this evening’s event, pleased with themselves being so powerful; completely unaware that the hammer of the law is going to come crashing down on them.
Everything I’ve been reading in this forum kept racing through my mind, and while I didn’t strut per se, I did change my thinking, and was able to enjoy the reason I was there, in the first place, with confidence and a very BIG smile!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:38am
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
GOOD FOR YOU…..AWESOME FOR YOUR KIDS!
They want to have a voice, and they are seeing they do!
Now…..keep a balance…..don’t let the highs too high or the lows too low…..BALANCE
You already know things change from moment to moment……
What you experienced tonight is ALL THE REASON you need to live YOUR life.
Support your kiddos, enjoy your grandbaby and carry on.
A Barbi doesn’t make happiness, a new car doesn’t make happiness…….
YA know what makes happiness…….your kids coming to YOU for support, guidance and love….NOT throwing you the bird and asking you WHY the hell you are there and having to slither away!!!!!!
Take mental notes on your feelings tonight, write it down too….but make a mental note of each time you are empowered and WHAT occured with that feeling……
OWN IT GIRL!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:49am
skylar says:
Isabell,
WOW! SUCH AWESOME KIDS!
There is something about teenagers that makes them so intimidating. They have the charisma and entitlement of a sociopath but it’s a God given right. God meant for them to be that way until it’s time to grow up. Sociopaths can smell that and it makes them envious. They wish they never had to grow up and they are jealous of the youths who are still in the “quickening” stage of life.
From everything I’m reading on this site and experiencing since I learned about narcissism, I realized that kids have a power that we don’t. They aren’t easily fooled, they tell it like it is. Respect their abilities, they have so much to teach us.
You are a great mom Isabell, you’ve done such a great job.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 7:21am
Stargazer says:
Wow, Sarasims,
I don’t know your whole story, but I just read your post about him wanting to come back to you after screwing around with other women, because he found out they were cheating on HIM (!). He was blaming the OW for poisoning him against you. Sarasims, please read the recent article on the irrational optimism (or something like that) of the sociopath. Here is a man who cheated on you and ripped your heart out. Then he actually blamed the other woman for it. Even more unbelievable, he has the GALL to think you will fall for it!! Is this what you really deserve?? I believe what I’m about to say is true for ALL men, but ESPECIALLY for sociopaths. Hit the mute button. Don’t pay attention to their words; pay attention to their actions. He abused you horribly. He kicked you in the stomach. He abandoned you repeatedly, and when his supply ran out, he kept coming back. Honestly, would you even let someone treat your DOG like that?
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:15am
Isabell says:
Erin…
How right you are about BALANCE. As you know, I’ve been on a roller coaster ride this week. I don’t see an immediate relief of such, for some time. From the beginning I had anticipated conflicts, but believed justice and fairness would even things out. Boy was that delusional thinking.
The highs would be so high. I’ve believed each one was a turning point, that indicated everything was going to be better. WRONG!!!!
The same is true for the lows. They’ve been heart grabbing, terror producing, paralyzing – and, as you said, Erin…most of the time what I was so afraid of didn’t pan out the way the initial threat presented.
And even though I know this in my head, getting a grip on my emotions takes an enormous amount of energy, focus and presence of thought. I think the initial emotionally charged reactions are triggered by the past (even childhood experiences) when I (we) didn’t have control of what was evil, wicked, and abusive toward us. And, the highs… well, the same thing. When we were children, the hope of Christmas could erase all monsters, at least for a little while. And, we would truely believe they were gone (or, at least the bad behavior) would be gone forever. If it wasn’t Christmas, then being placed in a new foster home, or finally being able to live with my sisters and Mom again. Each promise of hope, each high that signified this was the end of the nightmare, didn’t end the nightmare — And, as a child, I was (we were) helpess.
I’ve had episodes of helplessness the past few days. With each occurance, though I did feel paralyzed with fear, sick to my stomach, feeling like I was going to pass out, I kept moving forward in the dark dispair. This forum, with you amazingly insightful people were like voices calling out to me in the darkness and guilding me out, into the light where I’m not a helpless child. And, no matter what form of uncertainty that threatens mine and my kids security, I can move with opposite and equal force to ensure our security.
Erin…YOU ARE SO RIGHT!!!! Last night, my youngest daughter (9), and grandson (5) were so cute. They were taking each other’s pictures, and taking my pictures with them. When it started to get colder, they were all over me with their blankets, snuggling, fighting over me, with their little arms wrapped around my neck, sitting on my lap, pressing their faces against mine. My grandson shouted…”This is the best night, EVER. We are having so much fun!” And, I thought…. WOW!!!! There is NOTHING on Earth that matters more then this moment.
Neither my youngest daughter, or my grandson had any awarness that freakazoid and godzilla were even there.
When we left the stadium, I arrived to my SUV that seats 8, and every seat was full. I was greated by “Hey, Mom! Hi Mom!” from the friends of my kids, that needed rides home.
I drove out of the parking lot feeling like the riches woman on Earth regardless of my empty wallet.
Skylar, I do believe you are right about teenagers. They aren’t easily fooled, and boy do they ever tell it like it is.
Thank you for your encouragement.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:16am
lostingrief says:
if you haven’t watched the video of rihanna talking about domestic abuse at the hands of chris brown, please watch this. when she talked about how his eyes changed, it gave me chills.
PART 1
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=9020947
PART 2
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=9020992
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 1:45pm
amber says:
lostingrief…OH MY GOD!!! I watched it last night..and it made me feel like I was going to throw up. My heart was beating fast and I had the worst know in my stomach. Her entire description of him was scary. I hope everyone else watches this. It’s so clear to me now. Wow. They’re are everywhere. I’m glad you posted this.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:15pm
skylar says:
LIG,
Thank you so much for posting that.
That young woman is amazing. Her words and facial expressions were powerful.
I think youth has a certain wisdom and resiliency that we (speaking for myself) lose if we are under the spell of the P for too many years into adulthood.
In a way, she is lucky that he hit her early enough into the relationshit and that it was exposed in the media. It provided her with the feedback she needed to get out.
I wish my P had hit me, just once. Without that physical beating, I was clueless.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 2:51pm
ErinBrock says:
Skylar:
The S started the physical abuse almost right off the bat with me……it sure didn’t stop anything…..as I grew older I hated the abuse, buy I thought I loved the man….If he could ONLY see how he hurts me…..
He used to tell me, early on….If a woman acts like a man, she deserves to be treated like one…….this was his justicication.
With me…..the physical came to a transition….it stopped….but the emotional and cruelty upped substantially. I remember him specifically saying to me……I WILL NEVER HIT YOU AGAIN……and he didn’t…..for years…..
With our first child, he pushed me down the stairs, he was angry I was going thru with the pregnancy…..he threatened to leave me….I cried and begged….I was terrified of being a single mother….
Then he started getting his physical out on our first child……in disguise of being a strict parent……spankings…..but they became more and more….and then several times a day…..always a lash out……he would get mad at me, saying i was coddeling the child…I needed to spank him more…..
My view on spanking was a last resort…..not a release of my uncontrollable emotions on the child for control.
He would leave hand prints on the child……I begged do NOT do this….I lived in fear of CPS……someone reporting it……but it wasn’t enough fear to get out…..I kept hoping it would change, I could protect us all…….
The physical I hated….the emotional I hated…..It was all a mind FUCK……and it all hurt! My family knew it, tried to help…..I went back….It was exposed….I made classic excuses…..
I don’t believe one can “monday morning quarterback’ and think you can gain insight from afar and relive our pasts and decisions…..
I was hit….in the beginning…..I sayed for 28 years!!!
Go figure!
The ONLY reason this woman CHOSE to leave was she had the strength. She became enlightened and made a CHOICE.
She wasn’t willing to lie to herself about it…..regardless of what her fans said and her family and other celebs…..she very easliy (like in the beginning) could have made excuses and defended and taken responsiblity for HIS actions…….
SHE DID NOT!!!!
She is awesome!!!!!! She has stepped away and defelected any ownership of HIS ACTIONS…….
I, on the other hand…accepted ownership of what he did….and why I deserved it and buried in deep and held the ’secret’.
skylar….I’m sorry, but……
I find this statement disturbing, as if this would have changed anything…….
“I wish my P had hit me, just once. Without that physical beating, I was clueless. ”
Change the abuse avenue. Currently you are fully aware, he tried to poison you and you fear him for lot’s of reasons…..
AND STILL, YOU REMAIN IN TOUCH, thinking you can control your destiny this way.
In a sense, you give the same excuses a battered woman does to others why you remain in touch…..
Your not married.
You don’t share assets
You don’t have kids
You are not reliant on him financially
You are not living together…..
SO WHY?
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 3:41pm
Matt says:
Regrets–we all have them.
One regret I do not have — one year ago today I sent S packing and have been NC ever since. My decisions to get rid of that avarious piece of sewage and go NC are two of the best I ever made.
I seriously urge those who continue to “play” with the Ss in their lives via texting, taking phone calls, studying them on the pretense that they are educating themselves on S behavior or having any interaction whatsoever with the exception of having to resolve issues regarding your children, to stop it. Stop it and stop the madness. Accept the fact that you will never win with them and there is nothing to be gained by dealing with them and move on.
The only way you will ever heal from the whole traumatic experience of an N/S/P is to get it out of your life and stop their siren’s song. My life isn’t perfect — not by a longshot. But, as I enjoy this lovely fall afternoon, I think how different my life was a year ago when I was constantly in knots from S. He cost me dearly financially, emotionally and physically. But, in the cost-benefit analysis, not having his destructive presence in my life is priceless.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 3:46pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you for posting the links. Powerful. Wow! At the end when Diane asked her what do you want from him? there was this long pause and I was thinking “please say ‘nothing’” and that is exactly what she said. NOTHING.
Good for her. I hope lots of young girls watch both links.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 3:52pm
ErinBrock says:
MATT:
A big hug and kudos to you.
No regrets!!!
Life DOES get better…….
I want to tell you again, you are a big asset to my healing process…..your a wonderful additoin to the LF family and I am so very glad you are in the place you are today…….
You’ve come a long way baby!
BTW….I sent you more donuts for the occasion, but I see you have brownies……
And I bet you are heading to the market to explore all the options of what 3 tubs of whip cream can do for ya!!!
Congratulations!!!
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 4:00pm
lostingrief says:
justabouthealed: I said the same thing to myself!!! say nothing! SAY ‘NOTHING!’
good for her.
she’s beautiful, talented, young … and smart!
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 4:02pm
Rosa says:
Matt:
It’s about 4:00 in NYC? Are you just getting up?
Must have been a good night, filled with BROWNIES!
((Picture big red hearts all over this post
))
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 4:23pm
sotired says:
no contact. i “blew a gasket” he said 10 months ago and it’s my fault i ran him away. i know this was the best thing i could have done, i stood up for me. i miss him or what i thought was him, i miss the person i thought and wanted him to be but every time i have contact i feel poisoned and have to heal again.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 4:31pm
ErinBrock says:
That’s the cycle.
I’m glad you see the light.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 4:35pm
Isabell says:
Sotired,
“i miss him or what i thought was him”
This was the hardest for me to come to grips with. What he pretended to be was what every wife, and mother could hope or dream of (minus the romantic sexual connection – which should have been a clue). He was SO attentive, such a caregiver, managed every detail, including helping with midnight changing of diapers, and laundry. He was Mr. Mom. Since I was so starved for nurturing early in my life, I made a magical deal with the devil to not complain about the lack of intimate connection because he seemed so perfect about every other aspect. That is…until behaving this way no longer served to get him attention from his family of origion. They were all seperating, divorcing, having extra marital affairs… so, the buzz about having a family with kids lost it’s appeal. Nobody in his family system valued this, anymore. Therefore, there would be no more attention for being Mr. Mom. Our kids were the youngest in the family system, and still needed a cohesive family system to protect and guild them, while providing a foundation to launch from. It didn’t matter. Without his whole family on board with Play Acting the part of a “functional family” doing so lost it’s appeal…and the mask slipped, giving me the first glimps of who he really is. I could NOT accept it. I was too devoted to the image, the illusion of who he portrayed himself to be. And, like eveything else in my life, when the going gets tough, I roll up my sleeves and go on a mission to fix what’s broken.
Skylar wrote:
“I wish my P had hit me, just once. Without that physical beating, I was clueless.”
I hear ya on this one. I used to say in the beginning of the end, “I wish he’d just rage on me, then I’d know for sure what I was dealing with. However, because he does so many thoughtful things, it makes my dissatisfaction with the emotional distance, mixed messages, lack of eye contact, and unwillingness to do anything together without the kids, seem petty and selfish on my part. How could I complain? What right did I have to protest? He was, in my eyes (clouded by the smoke screen) perfect to me. I would feel guilty for not being more appreciative.
Hmmmm…What I find ironic, is while we were together, I was always depressed. Even when money was great, and the kids were thriving… I was seriously depressed, and needed to take prozac to manage the depression. When I changed the locks – two years AFTER he threaten to kill me, while cutting off my air supply with the bone of his forearm pressed against my neck – I no longer needed Prozac. And, no matter how terrifying his threats have been since, or the level of poverty we’ve experienced, I still do not feel the need to take an anti-depressant. Forcing myself to accept the illusion, caused depression. Living in reality, no matter how difficult it is…depression free. Go figure.
And, Skylar…if hitting would have made a difference, then why did it take me TWO YEARS after having my life threatened, to change the locks? It’s a mystery.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 5:17pm
skylar says:
EB, if he had hit me, I would have left. I remember how many times I thought it over 25 years: “please hit me mo-fo, because that’ll be the end.” He knew the exact position of my boundaries and he never raised a hand.
But I did leave him for not paying back my $5000 in 1989 and I came back when he paid it. after that it was always a pity ploy about why we couldn’t seem to make ends meet and my money got funnelled more stealthily. At the end, my first wake up was when I realized he was conning me about homeland security in order to take the business out of my name. Again, money raised a red flag while emotional abuse flew under the radar. My p-parents DID teach me the value of money because it’s the only thing THEY value.
But I need to get to the heart of the matter here.
HE HAS NO CONTROL OVER MY EMOTIONS ANYMORE. I FEEL NOTHING FOR HIM. I’VE REMOVED THE BUTTONS. ANY CONTACT I HAVE WITH HIM SERVES TO FRUSTRATE HIM AND IT REMOVES THE MEMORY OF REWARD-FEEDBACK CYCLE. all my responses are so unpredictable that he keeps asking me if I’m: a witch, bi-polar, multiple personality, under the control of a guru…etc…
HE CANNOT HURT ME EMOTIONALLY and having NC will not change whether he can hurt me physically because he has never touched me. He is dangerous because his methods are slander, sabotage and poison. He will work in stealth he has never and will never hit me. EVERYTHING HE DOES IS STEALTH.
The only ones who can hurt me emotionally are YOU guys here at LF. AND YOU HAVE. AND I’M DONE. YOU CLAIM TO BE SO EMPATHIC BUT I’VE PUT UP WITH IT LONG ENOUGH, I’VE BEEN GOOD-NATURED AND I’VE LAUGHED AT YOUR SKILLET BOINKING.
I ASKED YOU TO STOP JUDGING ME AND MY METHODS FOR SURVIVAL. THEY ARE MY METHODS BASED ON MY EXPERIENCE WITH THIS PARTICULAR SOCIOPATH.
AND I’M DONE. I’M GOING NC. WITH YOU.
Sorry to say good bye to those of you who weren’t guilty of this crap, but you all know the rules which Kathleen laid out:
#3 Reduce your pain tolerance to zero in voluntary interpersonal relationshits.
I can’t go NC with LF boinkers without losing the whole gang. bye.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 5:40pm
Isabell says:
Did I say something wrong?
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 7:40pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
NO you did not say anyting wrong! (((hugs))))
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 9:19pm
ErinBrock says:
Skylar:
To clarify……
I was not judging you, only to be able to understand your why, as to be able to offer you my support.
I believe you are a valued member of LF and even though I don’t always agree with you and you me, I have enjoyed your comraderie, spirit and posts.
There is nothing more to say.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 9:35pm
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
It’s amazing how many symptoms of illness we have while under stress in bad relationships.
The quickest way to health is to take the NC pill……it’s cheap, easy to get, fast acting and always available!
The NC pill seems to rectify all the various symptoms of any ailment.
It even works on crazy-mentally ill women-beautifully and quick!
It’s the one ‘medication’ we should all keep in our purses, in our nightstands, bathrooms, cars, and offices……
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 9:50pm
geminigirl says:
I told you didnt I ,that in the 4 months, total NC by phone or email with my daughter,D,{and on 8th Dec this year it will be one year NC with seeing her.}my blood pressure has gone from 148 over 100 to 126 over 80!My doc said thet I now have the blood pressure of a teenager!Not sureif thats a good thing, LOL!} And on the exact same meds!!How good is that? proves my stress levels are WAY down!! Love,and HUGs .gemXX
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 10:31pm
Isabell says:
Ok, I just got back from dropping my daughter off at her Homecoming dance. And, read further up this post….
A wise and profound man told me exactly what to expect. He wrote the play by play that was to come for me. He was a retired busienss consultant, who was helping me unravel the financial mess we were in. As I answered his questions, did the homework, and poured over the details to give him the answers to which he was asking, he saw the writing on the wall – and, tried desperately to warn me. I wrote his warnings off; explaining my ex as ignorant, and incapable of the plot the consultant was trying to protect me from.
In the end, the consultant was spot on. What he warned me about, and the reasons I couldn’t see it, were as accurate as my own image in the mirror. So, why didn’t I listen?
The enormity of the delusion was more then I could digest. I was too heavily invested in the make-believe to have accepted an alternative reality with more clarity. It took time. Lots of time. One piece of reality at a time, kind of time. Had I been force fed the totality of the lie I was suckered into living, I probably would have self destructed, instantaniously. I was SO committed to the illusion – heart, mind, body, and soul committed. That kind of committment isn’t easily broken. It takes time…
I, too, was angry with anyone who dared I believe otherwise. I was angry with anyone who became more passionate about my reality then I was. I resented anyone who showed me anything other then the imaginary that I was so heavily invested in. What do they know? How could they know? They don’t know.. because they are NOT me. And, as such…I would disconnect from them. It just hurt too much to accept, or absorb that so many years of my life was a nothing more then a lie. I was NOT ready to accept that my intuitive, insightfully brilliant understanding of the situation, and of my preditor, was keeping me stuck.
Believe me, there are days, in fact, everyday…still, when I talk to him in my head… beliving if I said it this way, or worded it that way, or expressed it with enough…whatever, he would get it. I play the scenarios out in my imagination, and I beleive he will have an “ah” moment, if I could only…”
Now, I know that this kind of thinking may be my deepest wish, because it would mean that so much of my life was not wasted in the abyse of nothingness.
But… the reality is, in spite of the nothingness, there are four realities that exist in the here and now. Four reasons to let the grand illusion go. Four reminders of my hopes denied; betrayed. Four seedlings of hope that have nothing to do with my dreams shattered, but have a future of their own… And, for this reason alone… I dared to wake up, and face the loss of my dreams, so I can be free to support, sponsor, and provide a foundation for which their dreams can launch uninterupted.
The greatest gift I’ve ever given to myself, or my children…has been the gift of NC. From NC, I can see clearly now, the rain has gone.. All of the dark clouds have disappered. Gone are the dark days that had me down… It’s going to be a bright, bright.. sun shiny day.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 10:32pm
geminigirl says:
Isabelle, many years ago, a very nice and wise bank mnager tried to talk sense into me too. It didnt work.Id just seen my daughter,d. after 6 months. By this time Id left her dad after he beat me up, and Id moved into a tiny flatin Fairlight, a suburb of Sydney, by the sea. This day, I was having a fruit juice in a health bar in manly. who should walk in but my P daughter, {then aged about19}. I was so thrilled to see her, and hugged and kissed her. she was in a sarong, bare feet, ankle bracelets, no bra, t shirt with sleeves torn out,head in a bandana, no make up,but with her pretty face she still looked good! She was at th time living in a squat, in Manly. she told me her Dad,{whom shed been living with, with her sister,C} had thrown out all her clothes so she had nothin gto wear, no undies, bras, nighties, etc. I was horrified, and rang him up to see what was going on.He told me,
“By this time shed run away again to the squat,and I rang he rup to say, come and pick up your stuff, mainly her clothes, bedding, etc.} he said, I waited a month, still no sign of her, so i put her bedspread on the floor, dumped all her clean clothes on it, tied it in a knot, threw it in the car, and took it to the dump.” So after this sob story, I went ot se my bank manager, and d him for a loan to get my daughter some new clothes.I asked him for about $1,000 in case i neede dmore. I remember him loking at me over the top of his half moon glasses, and saying,”Do you think thats wise?’ “probably not, I said, “but its my daughter, what else can I do?”
With a chequefor $700 in my hot little hand, I went to the squat. she was out, but one of her best frinds, also a Debbie, was there, so she said shed give it to her, and also she promised to go with her to buy the things she needed.
I later found out that D went on a skiing holiday with that money, and never bought these clothes.! Also, that same week, she conned an extra $70- out o f her Dad, and also went to the welfar people dressed in rags with bare feet and a torn sarong on, and conned an emergency cheque from them, which also went on the skiing holiday!! It was all a game to her, she had no qualms, no consciense,no guilt, and sh still doesnt have these qualitiesto this day, at 45 years of age.She has now conned and used me for the LAST TIME.!! Sucker no more!!TOWANDA!!!{{HUGS}}!!! Gem.XX
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:03pm
Isabell says:
Gem..
It’s hard to hear logic when only our heart, committed to what is possible, is listening.
Blessings to you, dear one.
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:12pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
You are so spot on. I was warned about a P-boss I went to work for, and about a P-business associate I got involved with financially (not romantically) and looking back with the things I have now learned about these people I do NOT use the word P losely, they are text book cases. I didn’t listen either because each of them held out the thing I saw as a “carrot” and I could not believe evil about them, even though the people who warned me were trustworthy I just thought they were mistaken.
Thank you for your post, and you know, I think when we finally come to the realization that we MUST NC them and we had resisted this for so long, it really does make a difference. Each person must be in the spot to realize how important NC is. I had actually never even comtemplated that NC was truly POSSIBLE with my egg donor or my P-offspring, not for long any way, there would no, could not be a FOREVER NC with them. If I had even thought it was anymore possible than a ride to Mars I might have considered it, but I didn’t. It was ONLY with other people standing up to me that I FINALLY SAW that it was not only POSSIBLE, but was DESIRABLE and then finally that it was SALVATION. But for so long I didn’t listen either, fortunately, I did get to the point that I DID listen and I have a special place in my heart for the people who kept on nagging me.
20:20 HIND SIGHT!!! Thanks for your wonderful post!
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Saturday, 7 November 2009 @ 11:23pm
Isabell says:
Oxy…
You, my dear one, I should thank. NC became my goal with every post you made. NC became my quest with every example you gave. NC became my life saving grace with every response to my posts…
I adore you. And, thank you with the life of my children…. what a powerful infuence you’ve made in our lives… MAY GOD bless you and yours richly..
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:50am
ErinBrock says:
Yes, we all had people in our lives making ‘get out’, stop it, and NC comments…..until we are ready….for our own reasons…..we will continue to hear those words….we alienate those when we are ‘tired’ of hearing it…..and when we finally see the light, it’s those people we think of.
I have a GF that saw it since the onset…..she would always be ther to ‘wipe’ me off……she hated the ex.
She would gently tell me….EB…He’s not going to change….there were times I pulled away from her, she never stopped her attempts…..
She moved into saying…EB….I don’t want you to be 60 when you finally ‘get it’……but you’ll do what your gonna do…..
I continued with the …..oh, he’s changing, my fantasy thoughts…..
Her voice resonated in my head……and even after I booted him…..she would say….Oh, he’ll be back….you’ll let him back…….he will talk his way back in….you always do…..
NOW, several years later…..she says….I can’t believe you woke up!
I LOVE HER FOR HER consistency and honesty!!!!!!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 2:48am
Isabell says:
Erin…
What a blessed friend. I thank God for her in your life. For without her, you would not be the dynamic woman you are to me, in my life…
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 2:57am
ErinBrock says:
Isabell:
Aren’t you a love! Thank you for your kind words and inspirations….
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 3:08am
newstart12 says:
Hi Everyone and in particular, Sarasims.
Well, the last time I wrote I was still in a very bad place. After nearly five years of paying for everything, trying to make things right for him so it would be my fantasy love affair, forgiving lies, violence, verbal and mental abuse , falling time and again for the ‘I’m really sorry and really love you so much’ and ‘I am going to change,’ in March this year I got him out of my house and my business.
Like Sarasims I kept wanting to believe, but when I started to sob for no reason and my son and his girlfriend said on a visit, this is just not right, this is not like you, you are usually so strong. So I did it, I said he had to leave and he did, and within no time at all I was so much better. My son would call and say, Mum, you sound so much better, like your old self.
BUT….. The big mistake I made and continued to make, was maintain contact. He was very sorry for himself back living with his Mum, crying etc, so I felt so sorry for this man who could be so lovely and who I’m afraid I still fancied like mad. So, I kept up contact and encouraged him to start up his business again in the hope that once he got on his feet again he would start dating and leave me alone. Oh, when he left I gave him £800 to buy a van by the way.
Then, a few weeks after he had gone he had a near fatal bike crash. No, I did not rush up to see him even though that was my first thought, but in the pit of my being, I knew what would happen. I was strong to start, I didn’t offer for him to come back until he was better. He kept saying the accident ‘had changed him,’ and that he wanted ‘to come home’ even though I thought he realised that this was not his ‘home’ anymore. I even suspected that he might have had the accident on purpose, is that crazy?
So, in the end he appeared so different and even my son said well, sometimes these things do change people, and yes, I still wanted him physically, so I let him visit for a few days and it was good, he seemed different. I put a deposit on a romantic holiday that I would pay for of course and that I can’t really afford.
He visited twice more and started to work hard at his business saying he would prove himself and win me back. Then, on the third visit, suddenly, it wasn’t right again. Things started to slip back, there was some subtle bullying, ignoring me when I asked him not to do things, interfering in my affairs, the old arogance creeping back, and I saw BIG RED FLAGS.
What finally made me realise that I will have to NC is that when he went back to his Mum’s this time I was so glad to have my home to myself again. I emailed and told him that I was going to cancel the holiday even though I will loose the deposit, and that I don’t think we should contact each other for a while. Today he has been on the phone crying. He made me promise I would call tonight.
Dear Sarasims, take it from me and my mistake, NC is the only way, and like you, I am finding it hard to take that step, finding it hard to let go of the lie. I can’t fix him, I am not his mother. I am not responsible and nor are you.
That last time he was here he suddenly gave me that look, you know the one others talk about. I said something he didn’t like and I got that look, and that’s when something clicked. Dear Sarasims, one day something will finally click with you and you will know you are cured of the addiction.
We can do this together, go NC. What do you think?
Please, please, please don’t take him back again, and please know that we are all here backing you up.
Do you know I still haven’t cancelled the holiday because part of me still has this silly dream that it will all be OK.
Let’s both let go of the lie. I am going to cancel that holiday in the morning and plan a trip for me when I can afford it. You do something for YOU in the morning, and perhaps we can both go NC.
Oh, and Sarasims, keep logging on here. It helped me get the strength to get the man out of my house, and although I have slipped back, reading today has helped me again.
My love to you all.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:46am
OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
I am so glad that my words about NC helped you to stand tall and embrace NC and I am glad that you were READY to embrace NC. Not everyone is ready, some never get ready and I am so sorry for them that they are not able to embrace the one thing that seems to me to make healing POSSIBLE.
I know that as long as I had contact with these people I got NEW injuries, new pains, every time I had contact, so HOW COULD I HEAL? Even after physical NC I had to go a step further with “EMOTIONAL” NC and then I really started to feel lmuch better, to think better, to embrace MY NEEDS.
Learning to set the NC boundary is important, and it allowed me to VISUALIZE that boundary with OTHERS in my life who were toxic to me, and I embraced NC with them as well.
As Matt said “thinning down the Rolodex” of these toxic people, and drawing closer to those that are good people who are good to us and love us. That is the way to peace and ultimately happiness.
I’m glad you are here Isabell and glad that you are embracing NC and embracing yourself and your children. Hang tough, you can do it, and stay on that road to healing and help to heal your children as well. ((((hugs))) and my prayers for us all here at LF.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:52am
witsend says:
Alot can happen here in a day. I hope you come back Skylar.
The “truth” pill can be the hardest of all for us to swallow.
We all initially come here in various stages of our own personal pain. For many of us the destruction created in our lives by the disordered or toxic individual in our lives is very raw.
Finally we have found a place where we can share our story and someone “gets it.” For alot of us this is a first.
LF is a place to share with each other, and to, learn, challenge, voice opinions, bond, debate, and empathize.
But for most of us it is a place to heal.
LF can be compared to a 12 step program, or similar self help group.
ADMITTING we have a “problem” and our lives have become unmanageable.
I think most of us have done this by the time we arrive here to these pages. We need “help” and we come to explore the avenues of healing.
N/C with alcohol (AA 12 steps) and N/C with the toxic individual in our lives is symbolically one and the same.
But as with a 12 step program, just removing the alcohol or the toxic person in our lives is just the BEGINING of the healing journey. The hardest part is yet to come.
We to, can fall off the “wagon”. This would be the place to share that. Just like an AA meeting would be the place for an alcoholic to share this information.
Skylar, I don’t believe that anyone here was trying to “judge” you, for your choice of not staying N/C.
Although you were recieving “boinks”, the same as you would recieve at a 12 step meeting if you had a drink. Alcoholics can not entertain the idea that they may drink, because they are cured of their disease.
Alcohol can kill an alcoholic in the same way contact with an S/P/N can kill you. And it is not always in the LITERAL sense although it CAN be.
Once you start to rationalize that you are “different” or that your situation is different, it is a very slippery slop.
I think that was the warning that you were given by people who do care for you.
An alcoholic who is “drinking again” will soon stop coming to AA mettings. Because he isn’t hearing what he wants to hear.
No one at the meetings is going to deem his situation as “special” and that he can “control” his drinking.
And that is really the “heart of the matter.” It is hard for us who care about you to hear you say that you THINK can “control” your S/P/N. Because that is just not possible.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:06pm
persephone7 says:
I just wanted to say I miss Skylar – I hope she does check in and know we
all care for her – and are pulling for her no matter what her decision is…
I’ve understood where she was coming from, I’ve done it myself with my
person – thinking I could ‘handle’ him better by not going NC, it’s still in
my head at times that allowing contact from time to time is better for me
in that he will be less angry or hostile in the ways he would follow up if
I go total NC. But any kind of ignoring or pulling back from total attention
to him when HE wants it, always draws a response. It’s been a long, lingering withdrawal for me and I see now NC a long time ago would have speeded up my healing (and his, if possible) and getting on with my life much sooner.
Skylar, come back!
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Thank you for that post to Skylar. I was thinking of the 12 step analogy myself but never had the specific words to describe it like you so wonderfully did. Very spot on I think.
I too hope that she realizes what is happening, and will come back here. No one here that I have seen posted anything angry to her, only that she was self destructing like the guy at the AA meeting that was trying to convince the other people at AA that “they could handle social drinking.”
Maybe not everyone is “addicted” to the psychopaths they encounter or even heavily connected to them, but I think anyone who has had a serious encounter with a psychopath is somewhat addicted to it–especially if it is a lover. I know I was totally addicted to the P I dated and fell in love with after my husband died. Going NC with him was the hardest thing I ever did at that time. EACH NC has subsequently been the “hardest thing” I had ever done up to that time. The very idea was anathemia to me–my egg donor? My P-offspring? Unbelieveably hard but NECESSARY.
My life has very little “drama” in it now, and that was an eye opener as well. Without drama to keep my mind busy what would I DO? Think about? Enjoy? Sheesh, I had to DEVELOP A LIFE without drama? How do you do that? How will my life be INTERESTING WITHOUT DRAMA? LOL
Well, life is fun without drama, interezsting without drama and enjoyable without drama. My “new drama” is things I discover that interest me, reading, learning, doing, and growing. Being aware of what is around me that the drama kept me from seeing. the joy in simple things, the joy and peace in waking up each day without fear and anxiety. The safety in being responsible only for myself. Wow! a whole new concept of my world! And a wonderful one.
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Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 12:40pm
Matt says:
So many good posts. Before I move forward, I have to urge all of you to go see the movie “The Education.” I don’t want to give the plot away, but it was one of the most riveting portrayals of a sociopath I have ever seen — from the charm bombardment in the beginning which not only envelops the target, but her parents (aka dupes), to the deciet and lies which lead the target to rationalize away his behavior and destroy her own life in the process, to the ultimate denoument — how, when confronted with the truth, steals away rather than own up to what he has done. Definitely 5 star entertainment.
Isabell, you are so dead-on when you talk about having to take prozac just to continue to try to cope with the craziness the S made in your life and how once he was gone, not only did you no longer need the prozac, but the fog lifted and you were able to see things clearly and what you needed to do in your life. In the 15 months I was with S, I was popping clonopin like candy to deal with the unceasing anxiety, tossing back ambien to sleep, and drinking enough alcohol to try to shove back all my doubts that the alcohol industry declared special dividends.
A year later, I don’t need any of it. Even grappling with my financial issues and unemployment my mood is suprisingly good without all the craziness.
Also when you talked about the financial consultant and how you refused to believe what he was saying — ain’t that the kicker? I kept introducing my friends to S — and they all were concerned from the word go. But, I didn’t want to see it. When I first posted here about a year ago, I remember saying that I expected to crawl over miles of broken glass on my bare stomach before my friends and family would have anything to do with me after hearing all about S and his antics. I’ve been lucky that they have been more forgiving. Now, in the clear light of day and being S free, I see what they said and I absolutely cringe with embarassment at the extent of cranio-rectal inversion (thanks for that one OxDrover) that I was experiencing.
Btw: didn’t you have a court hearing on 6 November? How did it go?
Geminigirl: That taking a loan to help out your daughter. Boy can I relate. As I shelled out more and more for S my friends were all saying “are you sure that is wise?” If I could get back 10 cents on the dollar for what I expended on S, I would be a happy man.
newstart12: Trust me when I tell you that the smartest thing you ever did was tell him the vacation was off. When I first posted a year ago, part of my story was on my regret that I didn’t do that. The week we were leaving for my family’s villa in Greece, he was facing eviction. First he tried to strong arm 6 months back rent out of me. I said no because I had already paid 3 months. Instead of telling him that he should stay at home and deal with his pending eviction, I, to my everlasting regret, helped him get his eviction stayed due to a legal technicality. We got to Greece and he promptly ripped of my neighbor’s villa. He absolutely destroyed my memories of a place that had been special to me my entire life. I admire your guts in pulling the plug.
ErinB: “he’s changing” (my fantasy thought). Yup. With my S I was his lawyer, lover, social director and ATM. I was a one-man Salvation Army. Mine never changed. He just got worse and worse. Now? The only changing I hope he does is when they take away his civilian clothes and order him to put on that orange prison jumpsuit.
persophone7: Hang in there with NC. It really does help the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) lift.
witsend: excellent analogy to AA. I know that Skylar’s ire was directed at my posting regarding the necessity of NC. But, I stand by my original position that NC is the only way to go. As you and so many others on this thread have pointed out, breaking NC is the ultimately slippery slope.
OxDrover: excellent point about the difficulty of disentangling yourself from these creatures when you are romantically involved with them. I actually found it easier to disengage from that cluster of cluster Bs called my family.
Now I’ve got to start dinner. First course is what I call “Triple-B Butternut Squash”. The cluster Bs in this recipe are butter, brown sugar and bourbon. Bon apetit.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:00pm
persephone7 says:
Matt:
It’s so nice to have you here, a good man who has been through the ring
of fire himself…Boy, that squash recipe sounds good, think I could substitute brandy for the bourbon (wouldn’t mess up the Triple-B!)?
I’ll stick with NC, I will think more and more of it as being like AA, and in
respect to Skylar’s struggle with it.
I’m going to go play tennis now while the sun’s still out!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 5:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Matt,
I second persephone’s “glad to have you here”–I’ve seen you go from fractured to whole and I’m glad that you found your way to LF, your legal knowledge has been so helpful to so many people here. Your kindly sharing that knowledge and expertiese with them has been a much needed thing here. I think you should do a “legal Eagle” article weekly for everyone’s benefit! I know different laws in different states, etc. but just from a general point of view! I think it would be good for LF!!!!
Can we take a vote on that folks!!! All in favor say Yea!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 6:00pm
kim frederick says:
Yea!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 7:41pm
witsend says:
Hi Kim,
How are you doing today?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 7:43pm
kim frederick says:
Hi witsend. I guess I’m okay. Feeling a little blue….I’m lonely and a little bored. Just generally in a funk. But I’m going to take a warm bubble bath, and get in my comfy jammies, curl up with my cat, and watch the Jaycee Dugard story, on at 9 o’clock. How are you? Things any better at home?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 7:50pm
witsend says:
kim frederick,
It is kind of a blue day over here to. The weather was wonderful, likely the last we will see of a beautiful day on a weekend here in my neck of the woods. I was saddened that I had no one to share that nice weather with and do something out of doors.
I also am going to settle in for the evening with the TV as well. Glad you mentioned the program, maybe I will watch it to. What station, regular local station or cable?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:00pm
kim frederick says:
PS, I liked your analogy of LF to AA. I use the twelve steps inmy life everyday, and they were what I leaned on, two years ago when I finally went NC.
You hear people in AA laugh all the time about being a new-comer and thinking that AA would teach them how to drink successfully. Nope. Not what AA’s about.
I watched a show yesterday, (I think it was dateline, but not sure) about a woman who was totally brutalized by her P husband. He was finally arrested, but my point is this: an expert in battered women syndrome made the statement that it takes seven tries, on the average for an abused woman to finally leave. That’s a lot of tries, but if you look atitlike an addiction, it’s not so surprising. Relapse happens. that’s why it’s soimportant to have a support system, and to be honest, and willing to trust, and listen.
God bless all of us. Amen.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:02pm
kim frederick says:
It’s on cable. TLC, channel 280.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 8:07pm
shabbychic says:
skylar, I will miss you, I hope you come back.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:08pm
geminigirl says:
Skylar darling I hope and pray you come back to us. But I agree with Oxy and everyone, that NC is our lifeblood, its the ONLY way to save our souls and sanity from these creatures. I know you think your in control of the situation with your ex p, but you will NEVER win with him. he will never help, heal, or validate you and you need all your precious energy to stay whole, healthy, and sane! We all do. We love you and our boinks are love boinks. One extra letter spells SKYLARK ie, a beautiful bird who sings her heart out, as she flies close and closer to the Heavens! Thats you! A beautiful, talented precious bird. Come back, we miss you! Love and {{HUGS!!}}}. Gem.XXXIm still finding it VERY hard to stay NC with my narcP daughter, but I know for my own sanity, [not to mention my bank balance which is starting to recover!}
that I cannot have her back in my life.Sad but true.gem.XX
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 10:58pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Skylar,
If you’re checking in, I just want to say that I understand and I hope you come back soon.
A lot of us have gone through periods where we really feel that we have to do this thing our own way (this is me with my hand up). And periods where we do not want to hear everyone else’s opinion of the way we’re doing it. (Here I am again.)
You’re a very smart woman. You’ve been doing your homework. And you’re progressing through your recovery.
Some of us figure out the virtues of disentanglement later than others. I was one of the late ones, and I don’t regret it. It was necessary for my way of healing. I don’t talk about this a lot, because I think I actually did it the hard way. But I did survive and I did get better.
Just take care of yourself. And come back when you want to. We’ll miss you. You are a stimulating voice who contributes a lot. And I will miss you particularly, because you really do remind me of myself.
A huge hug –
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:27pm
PInow says:
Skylar, It’d be sad if you did not post again.
Please, do come back.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:36pm
persephone7 says:
Skylar:
I’m signing off for the night. But I agree with everything Kathleen said above. I cried tonight after what you said, I did take it personally that I disappointed you. But I also felt I shouldn’t have to defend myself here of all places, just like I’ve had to defend myself against the N or S or whatever he is in my life. You must be hurt but you should be so grateful
for the well-deserved love that so many people feel here for you. It’s
ok to give up the drama, it’s ok for me to cry because you struck a nerve,
it’s okay. I wrote something to you that was ‘not nice’ and then didn’t post it – right now I feel like I deserve support and not anything negative from you, not from anyone. Maybe you feel that way, too. You are very smart, maybe too smart for your own good sometimes but don’t get in your own way on this – look at how so many here really love you and miss you here – you
created that and should cherish that and not throw your friends here away.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:53pm
skylar says:
Persephone,
I’m sorry I hurt you. I was trying to make a point about sticking to your convictions. Please forgive my acerbic tongue. I forgot to tell you how much I appreciated your first post, before the pink elephant commentj.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:57pm
skylar says:
Kathy, thanks, I’ll never forget you as long as I live. I have your words printed out and they are my anchor. (hug)
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 8 November 2009 @ 11:59pm
persephone7 says:
Skylar:
God, what a relief…you’re back. I forgive you and your tongue, just go
easy in the future, will you? Have a good night.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:06am
skylar says:
SC, keensight, witsend, PInow,
thanks, for your kindness. I just can’t be me anymore. If I know I’ll get attacked for being frank and honest I can’t be here. So then what is the point? I’ve never been a butt-kisser, I have to really FEEL like kissing someone’s but before I can do it.
I’ll continue my research, but I just can’t post all my findings here if I know I’ll be attacked for it – and it is quite obvious I will be attacked because my research sometimes includes observations in the field.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:14am
PInow says:
Skylar,
read what Mother Theresa Wrote:
People are unreasonable,
illogical, and self-centered,
LOVE THEM ANYWAY
If you do good, people will
accuse you of selfish,
ulterior motives,
DO GOOD ANYWAY
If you are successful, you win
false friends and true enemies,
SUCCEED ANYWAY
The good you do will
be forgotten tomorrow,
DO GOOD ANYWAY
Honesty and frankness
make you vulnerable,
BE HONEST AND FRANK ANYWAY
So, Be Honest, Be Frank. I have taken the hits here too. So?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:36am
Isabell says:
Matt!!!!
Thank you, love.
I did have an appointment on Nov. 6th. I’ve finally realized that I am more passionate about my case than any attorney I hire. As such, I made sure my attorney was focused on what matters. Two other people, the ex father-in-law and the new wife, are on a checking account together, and as such… warrent being added as a “party to” my case.
My attorney commented..”You have so much evidence, properly documented, we won’t need all of it to present our case. If necessary, we can use….., but the reality is, we will only need to show ……. . And, he added, “[His] dad will be paying for the legal fees, and forensic accounting, since he made himself the central focus to confuse the case. He flpped sides too many times. It is suspected that he will flip sides again.. ::grins:: Hmmm… Jezeebel must not be able to hold her hypnotic gaze as long as I am able to hold my breath under water.. ::grins::
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:42am
newstart12 says:
Thanks Matt.
It was so hard to cancel the holiday esp as I haven’t been away for two years and I was slipping back in to this fantasy of how I wanted it to be and how he keeps saying it will be, but never is. He is always going to pay his share but never does, and when we have been away in the past, he has always spoilt it in some way by turning nasty.
Why do we keep kidding ourselves that’s what I want to know. I read other posts on here and I can see so clearly what other people should do, but as you said youself, even when you knew you should not have gone to Greece, you still did.
This is the biggest puzzel of all; I look at other peoples stories sometimes and think, how could they let themselves be treated like that? Then, I let myself be treated the same way, very often knowing it’s going to happen.
I think the comments about childhood expectations were very interesting, there must be something in this, how we are conditioned, and then repeat the same mistakes.
I’m still fending off the texts and tearful messages. He says his life is ruined, he even accused me of planning it all.
He makes me feel guilty.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Newshart,
I’d like to correct something in your above post. QUOTE: He makes me feel guilty.
NO he does NOT “make you” feel guilty, you CHOOSE to feel guilty in response to his BLAME PLACING. You can now, with this information see that YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FEEL GUILTY any time he places HIS BLAME ON YOU.
NO one can MAKE us feel anything, we choose that emotion ni response to what they say or do, but we do NOT HAVE TO HAVE THAT EMOTION. They know how to push our buttons for “anger, guilt, sadness” etc. but we do NOT have to respond to those pushes. then he will try harder to get you to react like he wants you to, but you do NOT HAVE TO DO IT.
You did great canceling the holiday, and you can move up another notch and see that he is NOT in control of YOU, YOU are in control of you. Knowledge=Power, take back your power over your own emotions. YOU CAN DO IT!!!! (((HUGS))))
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:42am
Sarasims says:
Hi Stargazer – Sounds pretty irrational – huh?? Anyone on the outside can see how totally ridiculous that whole story is. But all blind me sees is my desire for it to be true. That it was ALL a big misunderstanding and if given an opportunity and if treated like a person deserves to be treated, he will see the good and change. For me….for us! EARTH to ME!!!
Newstart12 – Thank you so much for your words of encouragement. I know how very important it is for me to be here and that’s why I have been posting about what is going on. Hoping that all of you will lead me in the right direction. Pull me the other way!! And you guys always do!!
Today after a NC weekend, I’m feeling much better. I must admit that I was a BASKET CASE last week. I’m starting to see that I only get that way when he’s back in my life. Bc there is so much turmoil and destruction associated with his presence! I never know what will happen next – if he will act this way or that! He’s like a time bomb ticking – waiting to explode. Maybe the simple fact that he came back and asked for forgiveness should be my form of closure. A non-violent (meaning no harsh or hateful words) ending. One that I can live with. The thought the he does care bc the words came out of his mouth….EVEN though deep down I know the must really mean NOTHING! Just the simple thought of it and the thought of closure!
I’ve been waiting to hit that brick wall where I say NO MORE! I want to be there…..I so badly do. I want to stand up for me. I know from all of your comments that only I have the power to make it go away!
I’ve been reading Betrayal Bond and of course checking here for words of wisdom. And you guys are the greatest. I couldn’t get through my days without you!!! Each and every one of you have so much to offer. Hugs and love to all!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:06am
Matt says:
newstart12:
During 2008 we took 6 trips. I paid for everything. He ruined every one of them.
New Year’s in New Hope he started a fight because his friends had called me to confirm whether or not we were going because he had chosen to pull a vanishing act on them and they were about to lose their deposit. Then he started a fight because he claimed his friends kept saying “Let X pay for this round.” Didn’t happen, but of course it was my fault that “I put him in this position.” Fool that I was I grovelled to get back in his good graces instead of walking.
When I took him to the Cape we got into a fight and he threatened to take a bus home. I should have let him. Instead I grovelled again — and opened my wallet wider.
When I took him to WDC to see the cherry blossoms (WDC was important to me since I had gone to school there) he insisted we go to church. Not until we got there did I realize that his ex (two exes ago) was the priest and his intention was to sandbag a priest on the altar. I still cringe.
When I took him to the Delaware shore (two different trips) – he was snippy, snotty and argumentative. All prior good memories were eradicated. But, I was still determined to win back the “wonderful man I fell in love with.”
Before I took him to Greece, I made it very, very clear that things hadn’t been good for us for a long time and I viewed the trip as a chance for us to get back on track. I guess that was waving a red flag at that bull — the stunts he pulled in Greece, starting with ripping off my neighbor’s villa were truly staggering.
Tens of thousands of dollars wasted on that avaricious piece of sewage. And for what? To be made miserable. Thank God I finally saw the light and got rid of him. Trust me when I say that I have revisited most of those places this year — and formed new memories which helped to erradicate the toxic memories I had of my time with S.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:23am
Sarasims says:
I do however, have a question…..why is it…..2 months ago when he was VERY adament about me staying the F**K away from him….telling me I was crazy and that he never wanted to see me again, does he come back after 2 months of NC???? Two months that I have respected his wishes and stayed clear of ANY method of communication w/ him???!!!! If THEY (the SP) has choosen to make a break like that….so full of hate….why come back?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:29am
witsend says:
Sarasims,
Maybe something wasn’t “working” for him in his current situation. Perhaps he also thought he might bleed more than one at a time.
Whatever the reason, it wasn’t on your behalf you can be sure. It wasn’t for closure or any kind of self examination of “wrong doing” on his part.
His INTENTIONS were not good. That is what you might want to focus on.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:36am
kim frederick says:
Sarasims, whenitwas convenient forhim that you be out of his life, he made that clear. Now, for some reason, it is no longer convenient. Rememberthat theirprimary motivation is power. It’s possible that he realized that his going NC back-fired on him…that you were getting alongjust fine without him….and he couldn’t have that…..He needs to feel he has you in his emotional clutches. This makes him feel powerful and does wonders for his ego. It’s all about him. I think that they are masters at this cat and mouse game, and he’s right. Every time you re-engage you will be thrust right back into the chaos, the frustration, the confusion, and the pain. You will be starting over at square one.
He know exactly how long he can torture you and still return to start the cycle over. If he’d waited much longer you might have moved on. They are experts, and they enjoy every second of knowing they’ve got you.
So please, please let this low life form go. He is pond scum, and you are worth so much more. I’m praying for you! I absolutely know what you’re going through.
I asked someone once, “how do you know if you’ve hit a bottom?” Their answer, “When you quit digging the hole.”
Please quit digging the hole!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:55am
Matt says:
Sarasims:
I can guaranty that his “new gig” isn’t working for him and he’s coming back to bleed you a little bit more. This is a prime example of “crazy-making” behavior — you stay away, then I come back and mess with you, then I blow up at you and tell you to stop harassing me, etc, etc, etc.
Witsend is right — whatever he is up to, it sure isn’t to ensure your best interests. Focus on that.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:11am
Sarasims says:
It’s as if I’m this silly child…..how many times everyone around me keeps saying “don’t touch the fire! It’s hot!!! It will burn you!!!” and I just keep on trying!
What you guys say makes COMPLETE and total sense. From afar I can SEE it. He is such pond scum and any other horrible word I can think of. And when he comes back, I keep thinking to myself…..ok I can say “go F**K yourself!!” or I can be the bigger person and say “I forgive you…it’s ok”.
It is a game…..I see that and it pisses me off. BC first he called last week scrapping the bottom of the earth with every excuse and apology for why he did what he did. He wanted to HEAR me say I still loved him. He had to hear it. He kept telling me that he loved me and wanted to know if I still loved him. Then….just like that something happened with the OW and the wife from his failed marriage and all of the sudden he couldn’t talk to me any longer bc he had to focus on fixing his marriage. So he said he would call me soon. I told him “look! You said that last time and then you treated me like shit!!” If you aren’t going to call again just tell me straight up and be done with it…..And his response was “I will call you as soon as I can.”
What the hell?? It is a game and I don’t like the way it makes me feel!!!! Constantly grasping at straws to understand what he is feeling about me. It sucks!! And it hurts!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:37am
Sarasims says:
Before he wanted to be done with me….now it’s as if he’s trying to hold me at arms length for some reason. I’m sure it’s so that when it’s convenient for him, i’m here. But I REALLY don’t want to let that happen!! I’m better than being available only when convenient for HIM!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:57am
Matt says:
Sarasims:
“He kept telling me that he loved me and wanted to know if I still loved him.”
This is the hook. Every S knows exactly what our weakness is. I myself was a “love junkie”. Mine would toss an “I love you” out just when he knew I had reached my limit with him. I remember the day the last “I love you” expired in my text messaging. I felt like something had died in me.
I also was constantly trying to get S into therapy, to no avail. Of course, every time he knew I was at the end of my rope with him he’d chime in with “you’re right. I’ve been running from my problems. I really am going to contact those therapist/therapy providers whose names you got me.”
The last time he trotted that one out was the week we were supposed to be going to Greece and, oh, by the way, he was facing eviction the day we were leaving. I should have told him to stay home and deal with his own problems and that I would file on the trip insurance. He suspected as much, because out came the magic words, in a text message, about 10 minutes after I got his eviction stayed.
Cause and effect. That’s what is boils down to with these subhumans.
Examine what it is that you are projecting out there and that he is feeding into. I suspect you may very well be doing what I am.
Because never doubt these creatures are masters at figuring out exactly what we want/need to hear and using it against us.
“If you aren’t going to call again just tell me straight up and be done with it…..And his response was “I will call you as soon as I can.””
This is called a boundary violation. You set a boundary and he immediately violated it by refusing to respect it.
Of course you don’t like the way it makes you feel because you feel powerless.
Take back your power. Change your phone number. Change your email. Change your cell number. Change everything that you can. This is in your power. All you have to do afterwards is give your new number etc to friends, family, etc that you want to have it with the instruction that they are NOT to give it to S. If they do — toss them from your rolodex since obviously they cannot respect your boundaries.
And if none of that works for you, look at this from a different perspective — he is unavailable. Plain and simple. He’s got an OW. He’s got an ex-wife he still feels the need to “focus on fixing his marraige” with. My S pulled the same thing — he was always putting me into play with his last ex.
It made me feel like shit. It hurt me terribly. After that whole experience, I vowed that I would never get involved with somebody who wasn’t available 100 percent.
You have to get really clear on what it is you want exactly. If it is getting him out of your life, then, as I say, to get rid of a sociopath, you must become a sociopath. You have to turn off the guilt. The love. The obligation. The loyalty. The money. All of it. You have to view this as a fight for a scarce resource — yourself. This really does come down to a fight for your life.
Scare resource = you. You are worth it.
And the most effective weapon you have in this war is NC.
Only you can decide what is the right course of action for you to take. All I can do is tell you about my personal experience. If you want to read about it, check out December 2008 “Criminal Defense Attorney Falls for Sociopath.” A year of NC later, I the craziness is over, I actually feel good about myself, and I am with a wonderful man who doesn’t put me through the bullshit that my S used to and your S continues to put you through.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 12:05pm
kim frederick says:
Matt, yes, boundry violation. He effectively got you, Sarasims, back into the holding pattern and went about his business without you. Scum bags, all of them!!!
I like the idea of thinking of myself as a scarce resource. Thanks, Matt.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 2:09pm
Matt says:
kim frederick:
“holding pattern”. I never thought of my relationship with S in that context before, but it is a very good description.
My life was dedicated to obsessing about his needs, obsessing about his problems, obsessing about why he was so angry at me, obsessing about what I could do to get him to spend more time with me, etc, etc, etc. MY LIFE became a holding patterns while I dedicated my life to him. Meanwhile, I hung in there for the occasional crumb he threw me, greatful when he called, hanging onto every text (stupid me didn’t realize that when he was texting it meant he was up to no good behind my back). He had me right where he wanted me.
Actually, now that I think about it, maybe holding pattern doesn’t accurately describe what MY LIFE became with S. Because the phrase “holding pattern” implies that the status quo continues. In my case I lost friends, money, my self respect and so many other things during that so-called relationship. So, my life definitely diminished.
But, I still think you’re spot on, kim frederick, when you said to sarasims that her life is back in a holding pattern, vis-a-vis her S.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:40pm
Sarasims says:
Hi Matt and Kim – Thanks so much for your detailed analysis on my situation, and ultimately all of situations! I have never thought of it in this manner. But your boundary violation and Kim’s holding pattern makes complete sense to me!! I can never set a boundary with him bc he always wants to “keep his options open”! And by doing that it puts me right where he wants me…..a holding pattern…..his convenient store! Scum bag is right!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 5:09pm
banana says:
I am panicky.
I have been soooooo good. I have told myself not to react, I have been on my best behavior.
HE CALLED THE AUTORITIES ON MY SON”S DAYCARE!
she was not found at fault, but the investigation continues. They have to call and qiestion and inform all her clients that she is being investigated.
He made an anonmous call after threatening me that she would be getting a visitor.
He hired a PI to watch her. Said she was watching more than she was licensed to watch.
I told him over and over if he didn’t like her (he’s never met her) to find a new place for our son.
Why can’t my attorney see this. I want her to contact My son’s law guardian.
MATT, maybe you have some advice.
He obviously does not have my son’s well being at heart. My son was so safe and happy in her christian care. All her clients are now livid that someone would call the authorities on her.
Is that what you do when you want what’s best for your son?
He had no fault against her except that he thought she had too many kids…even if that is true, which I don’t know. Is my son in danger?
Do you think the SOB P even called around to check on other care?
He won’t even agree to pay her rate of $125/week, and now I must seek other care whcih I am told will be $175/wk and up.
We have joint legal custody. I must find care by thursday. Thankfully P has our son till wednesday and i have veteran’s day off.
BUt he has to consent to this care…he put me and our son in this situation. I am now forced to make phone calls and visits to seek and approve care. He will do nothing. And he will not pay for it either.
WHERE IS THE JUSTICE?
HOW WILL I NOT LOOSE MY MIND?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 7:22pm
Matt says:
banana:
As hard as it is, you must take the emotion out of this issue. If you get emotional with an S, the game is over before it begins. You have to stick SOLELY TO THE FACTS, okay? Judges don’t like emotion, but they LOVE facts. So, proceeding on that basis, I have several questions for you:
First, you have to establish what actually took place with the daycare provider. Whether or not your ex “thought” she had too many kids is a matter of law, not the say so of your jackass ex or a PI. This is the first fact you have to establish, whether or not your child stays in that daycare facility. Why do you have to establish this? Because you have to prove that YOU acted responsibly when you selected her. If she is licensed, not taking in too many kids and had no complaints against her at the time you selected her, you acted responsibly. I don’t mean this to sound glib, but Christian or not, if she is not State licensed and in good standing, you have a problem. So, first you’ve got to prove she was fit at the time you enrolled your child.
A PI is not a State licensing authority. Did he (your ex or the PI) actually file a complaint with the State or did he just call her and threaten to, thus pissing everybody off. This is easy to verify. Call the State agency that licenses daycare and ask THEM if your daycare provider is licensed and is in good standing. In particular, ask if she has violated the law with respect to the number of kids she is taking care of.
Quite frankly, I seriously doubt your ex hired a PI at all and just said that to yank your chain and get you upset. Whatever the case, if the State agency which licenses daycare providers doesn’t have a beef with her, case closed as to her fitness.
Second, has the daycare provider now said she refuses to take care of your son because of your ex’s antics/accusations? If she hasn’t then I would keep your child in the daycare and tell your ex that he can raise his concerns as to the fitness of daycare in a court hearing. Kick his issues back into his camp and let HIM initiate a court proceeding.
Third, what do your custody and other agreements say about decision making and how differences are resolved? If not, this has to be rectified in your agreement. If so, and says you both have to agree, then you’ve got a problem.
Since your ex is interfering with your abilty to earn a living, I would tell the court that this is the case and ask the court to rule that if you find suitable, state-licensed daycare, that he cannot interfere with that decision UNLESS he has a suitable alternative.
The thing is, he has you dancing to his tune — he says whatever decision you have made is wrong, but he doesn’t give a constructive alternative. You have to put yourself in the driver’s seat again. If I were your attorney I would be arguing that S (a) is not offering any contructive options; (b) is interfering with your ability to earn a living; (c) if this continues and you lose your job, you and your child will become dependent on the state (judges really hate seeing people become dependent on state aid) and (d) whatever the current arrangements are clearly are not working and these are YOUR proposals.
And then I would give the judge several daycare alternatives — have copies of the state licenses, that they are complaint with state law and are all fit and safe alternatives for child care. You can probably get this info off your state licensing agency’s website.
Also, if you have to find substitute daycare right away, I would go out, select a daycare provider, again verifiying that it is compliant with STate law and place your child in it. Yes, your ex will kick and scream. Tough. Tell him he can have his lawyer go to court and demand a hearing. In the interim, the daycare is legal and will do.
Also, if the daycare if more expensive because of your ex’s interference, I would make sure that the judge is aware of that and ask him to order your ex to pay the difference. One thing these idiot Ss understand is money — especially when they have to pay.
As you yourself realize, he doesn’t give a damn about your son or his happiness. Your son is just a pawn in his scheme to make you miserable. I realize NC is not an option in this case. However, you have to be emotionless, and then follow the literal letter of your custody and support agreements with NO variations. If the agreement says he has to pick up your child at 8:30AM and return him by 5PM that’s what it means. It does not mean 9:45AM or 7:20PM. Whatever his visitation days are, again, no variations.
The whole goal here is to take away his power to play with you. If he isn’t where he is supposed to be and when he is supposed to be there — you go. No waiting around. Nothing. And then you document each and every infraction.
Bottom line: you play by the law — show you are acting responsibly, and take away his ability to screw with you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:12pm
ErinBrock says:
I wrote a long post and it disappeared! I was glad to see matt’s post……I concur!!!
DO NOT GET EMOTIONAL! DO NOT DISCUSS THIS WITH THE EX! It gives him power over you, you let him see the results of his plays.
I also agree with Matt’s take on the PI…..DOUBT IT!!!! A PI is not cheap…..a couple grand for a surveilance…..
What would this serve him?
Follow the law, this was my biggest asset! If you don’t give him anything to fight, you can dump it back on him…..
I really have nothing more to add to Matt’s post…..glad I saw it after I lost mine…..
I know it’s a bummer, but expect it……in the COURT ORDERED custody arrangements ask your attorney to ask for NO VETO POWERS. Since your the primary care giver, he can’t have veto powers. It has to be spelled out!
Document, document, document, and take any and all emotion out.
Good luck and remember to breeaaathhhhh
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:29pm
Matt says:
ErinBrock:
Now I just lost my post. Thanks for the “NO VETO POWERS” input. I was drawing a blank on that one.
If Elizabeth Conley is out there, I remember awhile back you talking about how a friend of your’s dealt with her ex who was an S. I remember how she was dull as library paste in talking to him a monotone, repeating over and over to him what she needed to convey. Anyhow, it was good advice and if you can recall what you said, might help banana in this case.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:38pm
keensight says:
HI Sarasims and Matt -
I was reading some of your posts on this thread and what you
were describing. The frustration of going back once again,
lured back in by the promise of something, something you’ve
defined in your heart of hearts, but that they are NOT extending and never have.
There’s a quick and easy to remember name for this agonizing
and repeated process.
It’s called: H O O V E R I N G
That’s right, just like the vacuum cleaner. Except what they want to take in is valuable, namely your heart and anything of value to them.
I’m sorry for your pain. I’ve been there before myself with family and significant others. Each person decides when it’s
too painful or dangerous or both to allow themselves to be sucked back in again.
Don’t listen to that sweet siren call…
Just remember the sound of a Hoover vacuum.
Skylar – Everyone has a right to contribute and learn. I hope
you’ll keep posting, as we are all teaching and learning from one another. One doesn’t have to have any expert credentials
to experience being targeted, just a good heart and a desire to be loved.
What counts are the insights you can share in your passion to heal and move forward. I stand by what I said before about
everyone having the right to their choices and that should be respected regardless of whether or not we think we know what is best for others.
Crosstalk wasn’t allowed in CoDA (Codependents Anonymous)
and what happened here is a perfect illustration of why.
I think Kathleen Hawk spoke earlier about how that just TRIGGERS the person it is focused upon. That’s why it isn’t allowed. People who attend the meetings are at various stages
of recovery, and even though it may be coming from a loving place, we never really know where the other person is at or what stage and displays an assumption that we know better
than they do what’s right for them.
It’s oh so tempting to want to do and really is one of the
hallmark signs of codependency in action. That is why it is strongly discouraged. We’re all human. Everyone trespasses
unknowingly at times. The difference here, is that you get so many apologies and attempts to make amends. What socio
will ever give that genuinely and with spontaneity?
We all have to find our own way, but it is good to have people
who understand close by as we traverse our own path.
I hope to see more of your wonderful ascerbic wit here Skylar.
Take Care.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 8:49pm
banana says:
Matt,
I believe he hired a P his OW has loads of money.
He called the state. They showed up at my daycare today. They did not find fault, but will continue investigating.
Day care stated that the lady sent was very nice. She advised her that “this man” may continue to make false allegations and make things difficult for her. So she opted to stop caring for my son.
I do not know whether she has too many kids at once. She is not certified, but she reports her earnings I know, because I can put my money in an FSA and withdraw it to pay her with her SS#.
He must have hired a PI because the lady from the state was able to indify specific dates and times, comings and going of children and whether her son was at home or not.
MY P works and it is difficult to get time off, but I suppose he could have been doing it while he had my son the last 4 Monday and Tuesdays as he was working weekends.
I have not responded to him at all.
I just talked to my attorney who is filing an emergency motion allowing me to choose the daycare (We have joint legal custody) and asking that he pay the difference for the hardship (it will be much more expensive), but in the least it will be according to salary…he makes almost 15,000 more than I.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:17pm
Stargazer says:
Attention, job seekers:
I just found out a piece of interesting information today that I thought I’d pass along. It’s probably common knowledge for most of you, but it wasn’t for me. Prospective employers will frequently use your email address to look up your forum blogs. EEEEK! Can you imagine? So make sure you have a separate email address for sending out job applications!
Sorry for the non sequitur. I’ll slither out quietly. Hope you are all well.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:19pm
keensight says:
Dear Persephone7 -
Regarding your post on the other thread that I mentioned
earlier, the one where you speak of walking near the marsh
and describe how all the vibrant life seemed dead, but really
wasn’t and described the seasons…
It was beautiful imagery and I appreciated it. I wanted to tell
you of a film I saw that it reminded me of, but didn’t mention it at the time. it’s called THE SECRET GARDEN.
You may have already seen it, it’s been around a long while
now. That is what your beautiful post reminded me of.
Your post and that film describe how things may appear to be
lifeless on the surface, yet there is a season for everything.
I won’t say anymore about it except that the imagery and filming of it is beautiful. If you haven’t seen it I would recommend it for anyone in healing mode right now. I think
you mentioned being an artist and you might enjoy it from that standpoint as well. I hope you feel better soon.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:23pm
banana says:
Also. He is always late. God forbid I drive away.
I was late for work…15 minutes.
Then just this sunday. we have an agreement where I text him when I’m 20 minutes out, giving him time to meet me.
He didn’t show for 20 minutes then I get a text saying “u on ur way”
!!!!!!
I just said…we’re here.
He was 25 minutes late.
I document document document.
My attorney is attaching texts where he berates my parenting as well as mentioning drop-off harassments that I tape recorded. She is asking for an order of protecting along with everything else.
I hope the court sees his manipulation for what it is….he never met Day care and could not find anything wrong with her other than hoping she was taking too many kids at once.
When I hired her she told me she watched 3 during the day and 3 after school.
She explained, she is what they call certification-exempt because she stays under s certain number.
He tried accusing her of neglect but I explained he acquired those bruises with me when he fell on my hardwood floor and off of his tricycle.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:27pm
Matt says:
banana:
Just lost my post, so I’ll try again.
I’m sorry to hear that your daycare provider will no longer take your child. Your S-ex has created an impossible situation for you, her and the I parents of her other charges all because of his spiteful antics.
Since the State is allowing her to continue to operate while they investigate your S-ex’s “charges”, I suspect that she IS licensed by the State. Otherwise, they would shut her down pronto. The State can confirm this.
Your attorney is taking the right steps here. You should still discuss with her getting your agreement amended so that your ex has “NO VETO POWER” over primary decisions made by you since you have physical custody. This will buy you sanity in the long run.
You’ve got a responsive attorney — count your blessings on that one.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:35pm
Matt says:
banana:
Just saw your post regarding “certification-exempt”. Since that is a determination made under the law, she’s clearly operating within the dictates of the law. As I stated above, since the State hasn’t shut her down and allows her to continue to operate, that is a strong argument that she is in compliance with the laws of your state.
Since his behavior is escalating, have you considered doing the drop-offs at a police station? Having a cop there when you do the drop-offs and pick-ups will keep him under control. I would seriously urge you to do this.
You are doing exactly what you should — or as ErinB would say, document, document, document.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:43pm
Matt says:
banana:
Also, I don’t know if this texting that you are 20 minutes out is part of your agreement. If it isn’t — stop it. Why the hell should you accomodate him? Since your agreement says what time pick-ups and drop-offs occur – that’s it. Caso cerrado (case closed). He is either there or he isn’t. It is your responsibiltiy to be there on time and his to be there on time. It is nt your responsibility to accomodate his schedule. The court has already said what that schedule is.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:46pm
banana says:
We have discussed doing drop-offs at a police station. We will HAVE to if we get an order of protection.
My attorney didn’t get it at first, but once she started listening to the tapes and saw all the texts alleging my poor parenting, she started to. Now she calls it like it is. She says “what an asshole!”
Thank you Matt.
I appreciate your expertise and I feel your compassion.
I sent her a copy of your first post including the NO VETO.
I believe she has my best interest in mind, but she doesn’t fully understand P’s, so your advice helps.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:52pm
Matt says:
banana:
Another thought — has your ex remarried? I wasn’t sure if the woman funding his torture of you was his wife or not. If she is, I’d be going for a modification of his support agreement, taking into account HER income. A sad fact of being a second wife is that your income can end up going to support the first wife and kids.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:55pm
banana says:
Yeah. Texting, 20 minutes out. That was the way we always did it since I am coming from 3 hours away.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:57pm
banana says:
No. We’re not even divorced yet
But they do have a joint bank account. She writes and sign all the checks. yippie
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 9:59pm
banana says:
Oh yeah. That’s just when I travel to my parents over the weekend.
He has a 20 mile radius on me which he will not allow over 30 in negotiations….how the hell does this sort of things happen and why does any judge allow it!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:02pm
Matt says:
banana:
I’m not sure I understand. You cannot travel more than 20 miles from your home with your son?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:06pm
Sarasims says:
keensight – Thanks for your input. Hoovering….yes another good word! I just can’t imagine why they want to do these things. They are juggling so many other things – women, lies, hate in their hearts…..I can’t imagine what good it would do them to have someone else demanding something from them. Once he has me hooked, and back in his grasp again, he acts like my desires and wants from a relationship are unreasonable! Of course they are, how can he spend time with me when he’s so busy running around with other women and trying to cover his path of deceit! It seems like he gets so angry with me….why would he want to subject himself to that?? He knows I expect a morale relationship…..that’s why he has always become so angry with me and run….so why would he think its gonna be any different? Why bother to keep coming back….what does it really hold for them except more grief? Every time in the past when he’s come back and then disappeared….I continue to call and text and ask “what have I done? why are you doing this to me???” But this time, I’m not gonna do it!!! I haven’t texted him and I’m not going to. Even though I told him I still loved him…..I will not show it by begging and pleading with him. I am assuming that is the right thing!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 10:48am
Matt says:
sarasims:
“….why would he want to subject himself to that?? He knows I expect a morale relationship…..that’s why he has always become so angry with me and run….so why would he think its gonna be any different? Why bother to keep coming back….what does it really hold for them except more grief?”
You need to reverse your thinking here, girl. Look at that statement: “why would HE want to subject HIMSELF to that? …that’s why HE has always become so angry with me and run…so why would HE think is gonna be any different? …what does it really hold for THEM except more grief?
Your focus is on HIM and HIS needs. You are caught in the phase where you actually think THEY have human feelings and responses. The fact of the matter is HIS needs are being met. HE doesn’t care whether or not it is different. HE has set out the parameters of your relationship and they are being met just fine — He performs a “hit and run” on you and then leaves YOU feeling grief.
Then, YOU turn around and continue to call and text trying to get a logical answer from HIM. Your hope is that this time things will be different. Having been down this path myself, I can tell you from personal experience that the good ship HOPE has sailed and sunk.
You have to turn your thinking around and start thinking about YOU and YOUR unmet needs. Glue a message over your screen and your landline saying “NO CALLS/NO TEXTS”. Then log on here.
You may think you still love him. But, the fact of the matter is you, like everybody else on this site, fell in love with an ILLUSION. As I now say, if you want a remodelling project, buy a house. Human fixer-uppers are a losing proposition all the way around.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:17am
henry says:
A high five for Matt~~~!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:31am
Sarasims says:
Matt – OMG…..I never realized I was saying those words!!!! I cant even believe I’m so stupid to be thinking them. Here it is again……all about him! I DO have to start saying I KNOW IT’S NOT GOING TO BE ANY DIFFERENT. I CAN’T DO THIS ANY MORE! I AM ALL THAT MATTERS! But all I’ve ever done is try to make our relationship good by making him happy. And right now he’s probably thinking “I can’t believe she’s not contacting me. She’s always tried to reach out to let me know she’s there before” All those attempts in the past to “understand” what he wanted from me…..just asking him to please tell me so that I could do it. Give him what he needed from me. But the entire time he’s groomed me to want less and less from him…by giving me less and less and giving me no choice but to accept it or say good bye to him. He even asked me at point to just be his sex partner. When I got totally p**sed and told him I refused to be whore he changed his tune. I can’t even believe that I will speak to him when I think of the things he’s done and said to me…..but I ALWAYS think the him that I knew in the beginning will come back to me. He knew so well how to groom me to make me believe that he just went thru down times. In the beginning he even told me that sometimes he just got really stressed and it made him distant in his relationships. That was him preparing me not to question him if he became distant but what he was really doing was running around with OW!!! all of this is such madness. But I guess the question I keep asking now is why does he keep coming back when it’s obvious he doesn’t care about me??? Why bother when he could just be done with me and working on other victims? I guess there is no answer.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:33am
henry says:
He keeps coming back because he feels POWERFUL when he see’s you upset. That is what drives them..POWER..they love to manipulate..They lie like a rug..he isnt hurting or upset – he is powerful when you continue this DANCE with him..he has no limit’s, you have to go no contact. He will love you to death if you let him. And their are other victims in his game. No Contact is your only weapon and your ultimate salvation from this guy that is playing with your heart… They are pond scum
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:44am
witsend says:
Sarasims,
Maybe it would help if you change the questions you keep asking yourself…..Your just asking the wrong questions and torturing yourself in the process.
You ask : Why he keeps coming back when it is obvious he doesn’t care about me?
That is a LOGICAL question that one might ask about a “normal” person involved in a breakup. But this isn’t a normal breakup and there is no logic behind any of his motives.
Maybe try to stop thinking about what he is thinking in a “logical sense”.
It’s not about logic its about motive.
Its not about emotions or feelings with him. Its about manipulation and control. If he can manipulate how you are thinking/feeling he will have control over you and this is his only focus.
The best questions you might ask yourself now wouldn’t include the word HIM in them.
Ask yourself what you might do.(for you). Replace the word “him” with “I” in every question you ask yourself.
Focus on you.
He can’t come back, or call and talk to you, or text, or email or anything if you don’t allow him to.
Give yourself back that power. You can do this
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:00pm
newstart12 says:
oxdrover:
Yes, I needed to be reminded of that, but don’t you think women in particular are brought up to be ‘guilty.’ It’s a hard one to fight, but you are right, I let myself feel guilty when I could stop that and be in control of how I feel. I always was before. My son says when he first saw us together I was really strong with him, that was until he got himself in to my house. Then the chipping away started.
He wrote to his ex wife, ‘the trouble is she is a strident feminist.’ Now that did make me laugh, and yes I did start to hack his email and facebook chats – knowledge is power.
Matt:
I loved your post; I was thinking, ‘Oh, I’ll never get to go there again because it will be too sad,’ but now I can look at it in a different way.
Thanks so much for that.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:09pm
Sarasims says:
henry and witsend….thank you so much!! I can’t tell u how much your encouragement means to me at this moment!!
Especially now…..I just got a text….it said “I’m still alive! Just to let you know! Things are not good here!”
I will not respond!!! I won’t ! Guys – what you say makes so much sense! And I know that you know that bc you’ve all been there. It’s just so nice to have you all analyze this for me. It helps so much!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:22pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Newstart,
While it might be interesting for you to check his face book, etc. I think in reality that is sort of a CONTACT and there really isn’t any NEED for you to let him have this space in your head.
Try TOTAL NC and don’t check on him, or follow what he is doing. Get a TOTAL NEW START, get him out of your head.
Don’t “rent” him space in there. If he is out of your life completely, you won’t care what he is up to because it has nothing to do with YOU.
Give it a try, the KNOWLEDGE that equals POWER is the Knowledge of WHATHE IS, and you already know that, the Knowledge that equals power is giving yourself back the knowledge that you are a unique and worthy individual and you do not deserve to be treated the way that piece of dog poo treated you.
You are powerful when you validate yourself, when you love yourself, and when you do not feel guilty any longer for taking care of yourself.
TOWANDA GF!!!!! Power to US!.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:24pm
witsend says:
Sarasims,
You also really should at least give some serious thought as to changing your numbers…..That is what total N/C is really all about. Even if you don’t respond that message is taking up space in your head. Your still allowing him that space. He knows you got the message even if you didn’t respond.
Its like he is fishing. Your the fish.
He tried to “bait” you with the worm. Next will be a minnow….And so on.
You need to also look deep within yourself and ask the really hard questions…..Him still having access to reach you by text or phone calls. Is there a reason for this….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:36pm
Sarasims says:
Witsend – and therein lies one of my dilemnas. My numbers are well established business numbers.
And he’s telling me in that message that there are still problems with the failed marriage that he is “trying” to save while keeping me at arms length….but I think he’s really still with the OW! Crazy huh??
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:52pm
Matt says:
Sarasims:
You are starting to get it. I could have predicted the “things are not good here” from him. Of course things are not good there. The subhuman has fend for himself. Personally, I am surprised that these pieces of crap even manage to breathe on their own. Guess that’s why they suck the oxygen out of everybody else’s rooms.
The phase you need to get to — and it takes awhile to get there — is ANGER. Pure, unadulterated anger. That was the phase where I finally started to get anger. You can’t live there indefinitely, but, boy was it healthy when I got there.
Meanwhile, I agree with witsend — change the numbers, change the emails, cut off as many routes of contact to you as possible. I know it’s a pain in the ass. But, it buys you peace of mind. Also, if anybody does betray you by giving out your information to S, you now know that there’s a traitor in your camp you need to cut out. And then do so. And change the info again.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:54pm
Matt says:
Sarasims:
Sorry, you posted before I did. How about changing your personal numbers and then blocking him from the business numbers?
And yes — that he is even discussing his crazy situation is crazy. That’s why you need to delete the messages before you even open them. There is nothing in them of any importance.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:56pm
Sarasims says:
I am NOT going to respond to his text….but if I were to respond – what is he looking for from me…..PITY? Or is he just there trying to keep me hanging??
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
Matt says:
Sarasims:
Actually, now that I think about it, his email is beyond crazy. Why should you give a shit if he is trying to save his failed marriage or anything else to do with it? He has sent you — loud and clear — the message that YOU are not a priority. So, why should he and his needs be a priority for you?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:58pm
Matt says:
Sarasims:
Question: mWhat is he looking for from you? Pity? Keeping you hanging?
Answer: All of the above. Any of the above. None of the above. Who cares?
He’s trying to manipulate you. Plain and simple. One thing you can always say about a S — is when one tactic fails, they try another. BAsically throw anything at the wall to see what sticks. Bottom line to remember is you can’t hurt him — because he doesn’t have feelings. None of them do. They can make a reasonable attempt at feigning feelings. But, if you watch them closely, there’s not a lot going on below the surface.
Kathy Hawke one time suggested watching their actions against a blue screen. Turn off what they’re saying. Just watch the actions. Those give you the answer to what they’re really up to. And it’s true. Their words are distractions, projections, lies and nonsensical. Their actions cannot be denied.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:02pm
witsend says:
Sarasims,
If you absolutely can not change the numbers then there is another option.
Deleate w/o reading the messages.
Every time he messages you and you read the message you ask the questions again…..
Your sitting there asking if he is working on the failed marriage or if he is with the OW.
THAT IS his control over you. He “feeds” you a little bit of information in a text and you want to know more. That is having power over you in a very negative way. And that power gives him all of the control. Believe it or not he has you right where he wants you.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:04pm
witsend says:
Sarasims,
He is trying to keep you right were you are.
Involved. Emotionaly invested. Reading his text. Questioning if he might still care. Wondering. Giving him even one split second of your time. And finally lots and lots of space in your head.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:11pm
Sarasims says:
Yes….it does make sense. That’s why he wanted to know if I loved him….that would make me emotiionally invested.
I do know this much about his thought process. This is “PROVIDED” what he says about the marriage is true. He wants to “make things right” at home and then have me be the OW. That is…..if no one else is around.
Actually, nothing is as it seems to be….so I probably dont know a damn thing about anything! But what I do know is that I will not answer that text. In the past, I tried to reason with him. Feel sorry for him. Get him to talk to me so that he could feel better. Empathize with his problems. Provide guidance when asked. Just be there!!! But I will not do it again. I could care less if he’s alive or dead. I could care less about his problems. And in reality…I think his problems are hilarious bc he brings them on himself!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:45pm
Sarasims says:
And yes…..I do believe you when you say that he has me right where he wants me!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:29pm
Sarasims says:
Matt – I did want to ask you about the anger stage. Because I have actually been there. Before….during the last times he came and went. And when he kicked me in the stomach and left he always made me so mad that I would unload on him in an email and tell him what a SORRY ass he was…..I felt so much better. Then about 2 weeks later I would feel guilty and horrible about what I had done. Saying to myself I had no solid proof to blame him for the things I had blamed him for. Is that stupid or what? Of course I had every reason to blame him. I knew what he was up to. But I felt that I didn’t have the right bc I couldn’t prove it in stone. This time he doesn’t seem to want to make me angry. He doesn’t want to push me away. Just keep me at bay……wondering. I’m trying not to let it bother me. I’m trying to say this is the end and mean it. But even now I find myself wondering……if I do this, what will he think. How will he react if I don’t answer, if I don’t respond? And I know I’m playing this game with him just by thinking those thoughts. I don’t want to care….really I don’t.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:47pm
Matt says:
Sarasims:
We cycle through the various stages of recovery. Like you, I still had my momentary flashes of anger at S’s treatment. But I always stuffed it down — for all the reasons you articulated, and then some. When you finally get to the stage I term “righteous anger” is when you realize that what S has done to you is inexcusable, unacceptable, immoral, etc and that there is no going back. Kathy’s articles on the stages really are illuminating — and when she published her article on the anger stage — boy-oh-boy did we have fun.
Regarding your obsessive thinking about him “what will he think. How will he react if I don’t answer” yada, yada, yada. Here is something that I learned and that most everyone on this site will vouch for. Once an S decides that there is nothing left for him from a source of supply (you) — they move on and don’t give you a single thought. Not a one. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Nyet. Nunca. So, if you really do want him out of your life and stick to your resolve that he is not getting anything further from you, he will move on and you will occupy exactly 0% of his memory and thoughts.
That is not to say that he may not take a run at you in the future. This site is replete with stories from people who years after they drove off their S, that the S slithers back into their lives because they want to see if there’s any supply left from them to parasitically suck out of the victim.
As I said, this fight boils down to a fight for scarce resources. Scarce resources = you (and your life).
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:56pm
witsend says:
sarasims,
Kind of think of it as he has this uncanny ability to know WHEN to do WHAT to keep you within his “reach”.
And he plants all these seeds to keep you thinking about him and his whereabouts while he is on his way continuing to abuse his OW….He keeps his “cycle” evolving this way. In case OW gives him a boot he has another place to go to.
THINK ABOUT it Sara….Think about how this works.
1) He kicks you in the stomach and left.
2) You get angry and email him and tell him off. (RIGHTFULLY so)
3) About 2 weeks later YOU feel guilty and horrible.
What is wrong with this picture?
Everything, because you had nothing to feel guilty about! You have every right to be angry.
Actions speak louder than words……If you think about his actions and refuse to listen to his words you will see this in a different light.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 4:14pm
justabouthealed says:
Matt and others who have been NC a long time….Maybe it is because the P/S/N whatever the hell he was kept recontacting me over a 40+ year period that even though it has been 1 year and 10 months since I have heard anything from him or been emailed, etc…..and I made it very clear that if he contacted me again, his family would be told to ask him to please leave me alone, etc., which he doesn’t want to happen…still, I can’t shake this “unresolved” feeling. I have a Plan B for almost every scenario…(hang up without a word if he calls, etc.)…but how do you shake that last little remnant from your mind. I guess I need to reread Louise’s post on NC begins in your mind. But just wonder if others struggle with that YUCKY nagging feeling that it ain’t over yet.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 4:17pm
JaneSmith says:
Pardon my off topic post but I wanted to share with you caring and compassionate folks.
I watched a disturbing, shocking yet compelling documentary last night titled, “Crips and Bloods: Made in American”
I’ll be honest, I was thoroughly ignorant of the vast devastation, the continuous violence and tragic fatal losses of young lives on a daily basis in South Central LA.
And also of the heartbreaking despair and anguish festering in the hearts, minds and spirits of this urban war zone community.
I also needed to hear the powerful African-American history lesson offered by the film’s makers. Opened my eyes to the vicious cycle that constant oppression can perpetuate over many generations.
The interviews with current and past gang members were intense, disturbing, enlightening, horrifying and truly heartbreaking.
Many of the young gang members are NOT psychopaths, monsters, animals. They are simply trying to survive with the limited recourses available. No, I’m not a bleeding heart but there is no way I can dismiss the tragic consequences caused by broken families, utter poverty, drugs, deeply rooted rage and self-hatred exhibited by people in the community.
This film affected me like none have in a long time. This war zone isn’t some section in a third world, but occuring in one of the most affluent states in American society. How literally appalling that this soul destroying reality is allowed to fester, day in and day out, for years upon years.
The end of the film is touching, inspiring, and yearning for change as many former gang members have decided to offer their help, experience and guidance to the hurting youths by founding outreach and educational programs.
The older generation is giving back something priceless, and valuable to the younger generation. Hope, genuine care, the chance at recovery and renewal is permeating through the commnunity and is making small, yet promising positive changes.
I look forward to keeping up to date on SC LA. It’s important to me to believe that good things can happen to suffering people when others care deeply.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 5:15pm
OxDrover says:
Janie,
I too worry about our society when 75% of the young people (just read that statistic yesterday) are NOT eligible to join the armed services because of 1) criminal records 2) obesity 3) illiteracy (not in that order) this is the ones from 17 to 27. Pretty pathetic isn’t it.
75% of those same people do NOT have a high school diploma. Of the ones who do have a highschool diploma a vast majority can’t pass the entrance exam into the service. (equivalent to the SAT)
How are you going to motivate a kid to stay in school so he can get a job that requires he ask “Would you like fries with that?” for minimum wage when his neighborhood friends are making hundreds of dollars a day selling drugs on the corner?
I don’t think the “drug culture” is totally at fault for our society today (and the rise of gangs) because it is multi-factoral, but at the same time, many ytimes poverty comes from the fact that the person is not functional in society, and sees no need to work in order to survive. Of course that breeds generations of people “on welfare” and in the “counter culture” making money from drugs and crime.
I have been reading Booker T. Washingtons’ book “Up from Slavery” and this remarkable man founded a school and then a university with hard work and ambition and a desire to see his race become productive members of the society. He knew that only through hard work could any of them succeed.
His school required though, that any student who could not afford tutition go to owork for the school 10 hours a day at things like making bricks and then could have 2 hours of instruction daily. If after two years they were still there, they had money saved up to pay room board and tuition. He said “they were worth educating” and had proven it.
All the buildings on the campus and the furniture, including the bricks were done by student labor. It not only built the buildings but taught the students a trade as well as gave them an education.
The old CCC camps and the WPA programs were along the same lines (for both races) it was WORK-fare, and work as well as education was stressed.
Too many people today are not interested in working for waht they have—I’ve seen too many people with “etitlement” mentalities that neither wanted to work OR educate themselves. How do you motivate these people? That’s a question that no one knows the answer to. Professor Washington was able to motivate his students by stressing that honest work even at “manual” labor was uplifting.
I think one of the reasons we have a huge influx of Mexicans coming to our country is that those people, like Professor Washington’s student were and are willing to LABOR in order to educate their children and get a better life for themselves and their children. I say we keep the Mexicans who come here to work (not the ones who come here to deal drugs and steal) and send an equal number of our own people who don’t want to either work or get an education to oMexico and let them get some life lessons in survival—work or starve.
I think John Smith at Jamestown had the right idea when his uppity colonists were too “good” to work even when they were starving. “Work or starve”—our society is becoming a society of all “white collar” service personnel and a good deal if not most of the manufacturing has gone out of the country to countries who do have people who will work to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.
Family values are important, and stressing education is also important, but I know many many people who had no “family values” imparted by their parents, and had little or in some cases NO education (couldn’t write their own names) who some how motivated themselves to not only work so they wouldn’t starve, but to educate their children to follow them and work and also learn and be good citizens.
As long, I think, as football stars, rap and music and movie stars (who live openly dysfunctional and drug ridden lives) are the heroes of our young people, rather than the teachers and the working men and women, I think our society as a whole has a lot of work and change to do. When the Madoffs and all the other crooked politicians and “big wigs” reign supreme, and known crooks are elected to office and high positions, we need to start at the top and work our way down. Also, start at the bottom and work our way up. It also makes me sad, but I don’t think the way things have been going like “throwing money” at schools and yet the quality of education keeps going lower and lower, is the answer. It is WE THE PEOPLE who must make the changes.
I’m off my soap box now.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:28pm
Sarasims says:
Matt and witsend – so many people here at LF have helped me. But the things you said to me today seemed to really get me one foot further! For soooo very long (the past 10 months) I have been solely focused on him and wondering why he does what he does and so on. I have not once thought to replace he with “I”. And just listen to the question I’m asking.
Slowly I have accepted things along this path. First I couldn’t bear to think of him with anyone else. Now it doesn’t bother me – or not nearly as much. I realize that what we had (even though it was a lie) – will never be again. Even during the happy days I can identify the grooming that he was doing to get me to this stage. To have no obligation to me….have me happy to just speak to him again and hear his voice. He knows I won’t rock the boat bc he will take off again. So my choice is either to accept him as is (little to none…or take a hike). And sadly to say, I was almost willing to give into that, just to be with him. Compromise all sense of my morales. But I’m beginning to realize that I was not raised to have such little respect for myself. There are so many people that I don’t take any crap from….I can turn them on and off in a heartbeat. But with him…..it’s different. And I know it’s bc in the beginning he showed me everything I wanted in a man. And I thought I must be the luckiest woman in the world to stumble across him. He respected me, appreciated me, loved me, lusted me, the whole nine yards. I just have the hardest time letting that go, thinking it was all a game to him, realizing I let that happen. Or maybe it’s bc I think I’m too smart to let that happen. Or too beautiful for someone to do that to. I mean, wouldn’t any man be happy to have me?? And appreciate me…..HA! Guess not a SP!
I realize I’m just talking and not really saying anything productive. But I guess that’s called venting. And I haven’t texted him back after his message today…..nor did he text me again. It’s just hard for me to accept that after all the deep and meaningful conversations we had, walks holding hands, intimate love making, shared dreams….all he wants from me now is a booty call. Nothing but meaningless sex.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:21pm
banana says:
Matt,
I can travel, I cannot move out of the 20 mile radius.
Tonight he drove me crazy.
I know this is a lot, but I have no easy way to epxlain what I have just spend the last 5 hours doing.
I hate that he does this to ME!!!!!
My mom said he had to make it difficult because I wasn’t posing a challenge to him.
P: Nov 10, 2009 5:11 PM
R we doing normal time for drop off tomorrow? We both have it off and i didnt know if u still wanted to wake baby up early if we didnt have too.
Me: Nov 10, 2009 6:12 PM
He usually wakes up around 6:30. So I can meet you at Stewarts at 8:00 am if you’d rather.
P: Nov 10, 2009 6:19 PM
That is fine 8am. Would u rather meet closer around exit 24 since we don’t have to go to work? 0n thursday i have that concert to go to…so i can only have baby from 3:30pm to 5:30pm or if u would rather have me keep him longer tomorrow till about noon instead of having him for 2 hours thursday night.
Please let me know.
Me: Nov 10, 2009 6:59 PM
Okay. Let me make sure I understand you correctly. You would like to keep
baby until noon tomorrow in place of your thursday overnight?
P: Nov 10, 2009 7:01 PM
What r u willing to allow since i cant have him overnight thursday night? If i can keep him for most of the day tomorrow or overnight tomorrow night instead of thursday
Night…let me know…
Me:7:10 PM You can either have him till noon tomorrow or meet me at 8 am tomorrow and take him thursday from 3:30 till 5:30.
P: Nov 10, 2009 7:10 PM
Ill keep him till noon tomorrow. where do u want to meet?
Me: Nov 10, 2009 7:14
Exit 24
P: Nov 10, 2009 7:13 PM
Ok exit 24 at noon…east side?
Me: Nov 10, 2009 7:17 PM
East side of the exit 24 tolls at 12pm tomorrow.
P: Nov 10, 2009 7:16 PM
Ok
Me: Nov 10, 2009 8:59 PM
To clarify. Since you are getting Noah from 6:15 am till 12pm tomorrow, you will not be expecting me to drop off baby Thursday at 3:30. Am I correct?
P: Nov 10, 2009 9:11 PM
Well if you wouldnt mind i would like to have him for my dinner visit considering i wont see him for 7 days
Me: Nov 10, 2009 9:16 PM
Don’t change plans on me. I gave you two options. Please meet me at 8am tomorrow at exit 24. Since you will be seeing him at your scheduled time thursday.
P: Nov 10, 2009 9:24 PM
You are not willing to give me 4 hours tomorrow and my dinner visit considering im not gonna have him for 7 days.. Im supposed to have baby at 330 on sudays and i dont get him till 11pm…. I will notify the law gardian that you one again take away and not willing to give..You say you want whats best for baby, but you constantly keep messing with his sleeping schedule.
Me: Nov 10, 2009 10:09 PM
Okay. You can have baby till 10 am tomorrow. AND thursday 3:30 till 5:30. Is that okay. I want to settle.
P: Nov 10, 2009 10:10 P
U take the majority of the day tomorrow….
Me: Nov 10, 2009 10:17 PM
Okay. Give me the plan. What time am I meeting you tomorrow?
P: Nov 10, 2009 10:16 PM
12pm
Me: Nov 10, 2009 10:23 PM
Please be clear with me. If you want him till noon do you still want him thursday for dinner?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:03pm
banana says:
I still have no daycare for my son.
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 11:09pm
witsend says:
banana,
I don’t remember if your visitation is court appointed or something “loose” that you both have decided upon.
FIRST thing that needs to happen is that it is written in stone. In other words if he has a concert to go to or dinner or an appointment this is NOT your PROBLEM. It is his problem for making the appointment or making plans that interfere with his visitation time.
IF HE has plans and he “gives up” time with his son to pursue those plans I do not believe that it is your responsibility to give him another time for visitation.
Matt can define more the actual process if you don’t have this visitation court appointed.
The times and dates need to be CLEAR and you need to stick to them to the letter. The DROP off & PICK up place clear and do not alternate. I would urge you to have a place where YOU feel safe for pick up and drop offs.
Otherwise he will play this “game” with you UNTIL he tires of it. And he might NOT tire of it for a long time if he gets off on it. He wants you to be flexable to his whims and the more you flex the more he will put you in this position.
He is trying to run your life around “him”. It is the same thing with the daycare. He messes up the daycare situation and now you are stuck finding new daycare.
This is one of those FACTUL things to document if you find out that your daycare provider WAS on the up and up with state regulations. He just sabotaged your sons daycare.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 8:22am
OxDrover says:
Ditto to what Wit said, Banana.
SET, CARVED IN STONE, THAT’S THE WAY IT IS VISITATION.
As far as that goes, why are you driving half way there and so oon to convenience HIM? Didn’t you say it is like 3 hours to where he lives? Is it YOUR PROBLEM he lives so far away? If he wants to see the child he can drive there and meet you at the police station for pick up and delivery.
Do not cooperate with him in anything the COURT DOESN’T ORDER. If he keeps the baby over time CALL THE COPS and report it. HE IS NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING FROM YOU in the way of “nicey nice” and he is keeping you on a string that he can pull, so he is still IN CONTROL.
How about you e mail him that you will have the baby available at 5:30 at the police station for his pick up and you expect the child returned at X time AT THE POLICE STATION.
NO PROBLEM for you. Then no conversation about anything except the pick up and drop off times —if the court ordered you to drive part of the way—do the exchanges at the cop shop nearest that exit. That will put a stop to his crap.
YOU TAKE CONTROL sweetie! Don’t worry that it pisses him off! (((((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 11:28am
Matt says:
banana:
First, I second what witsend and OxDrover have said. YOur agreement has to be carved in stone. And then you don’t allow one iota of variation. Not your problem he has concernt tickets. Not your problem is he’s running late. He doesn’t comply, you haul his ass into court. No being reasonable on this.
Second, regarding the 20 miles limitation — this makes no sense. He lives 3 hours away. At a minimum the zone should be anywhere within 3 hours of his home. That would maintain the status quo, no?
His demand is nonsense. Moreover, there is well-established caselaw regarding a custodial parent’s right to relocate. Especially when the parent has a job opportunity. The right to relocate does come with costs such as you will now have to absorb all transportation costs (airfares, etc) for your child to visit his father and the agreement will have to be varied in order to give the father longer periods of time during holidays and vactions since weekly visits are not practical. You get the idea.
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:30pm
ErinBrock says:
Banana:
I third the above….
And let me add…..
It is YOU also that must NEVER expect HIM to concede for you in accomodating a change….
Don’t ever ask for anything different than is spelled out.
You must follow it to a tee also!
THis may seem like a pain in th butt….but allow for more time in your travels and sit at Mc Donalds in the ball pit and let your son unwind from the journey… It will become second nature to you.
There is NO flexability with a S……so don’t expect any.
This is why you must folllow all orders to a Tee……it resolves any and all issues. You will have the ex trained for NO!
With his crazy texts….he’s training you….
I’m sure you will figure the daycare out…..don’t lose sleep over it….it all seems to work out!!!
Really!
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 12:38pm
banana says:
Sorry if my post were unclear.
I visit my parents every weekend and to take a class at my church for Christ Life Solution.
That’s 3 hours away.
Although, MATT, he decided to live with his girlfriend 40 miles away, so yes, my limit should not be less than that!!!
My attorney proposed 100, we are tryingto settle for 60.
Tuesday I received a letter from CPS.
Thursday they visited.
It was about the burn he got fom grabbing a light bulb.
I told my S/P. Made a Dr. appt. and took my son. The burns were 1st degree.
That night my P/S had CPS visit and look at the burn and pictures of bruises my son had the prior week from falling on a plastic lid and and off his tricycle in my home.
The CPS worker didn’t seem concerned about my parenting. I was there for every incident, but I should not be expected to remain within 1 foot of my child at all times.
My P/S is claiming I am not supervising. I am always there, that’s how I know how and when he gets hurt!!!!!!
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 12:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
I know this is frustrating and miserable for you and anxiety producing. That is why he is doing that.
I suggest that you keep a log of every time your son gets a scrape or bruise etc. and Photos as well. Just keep a little digital camera in your pocket and photograph as much as you can.
KEEP CALM when the CPS visits and just act like “oh, well, he is bothering you people again” (don’t say that I wouldn’t think, but act like you are just RESIGNED to the problems your X is causing you, and them, and I know this is not their first RODEO either. Also I suggest FULL BODY photos of your son (with date stamp) before you let him go to your X’s so any marks he has on him before he goes, or any AFTER will be documented.
Hopefully, your x will get tired of this game soon when you are not arrested and tarred and feathered. LOL (head shaking here) Oh, what they will do for drama! (((hugs))))
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 1:17pm
ErinBrock says:
Banana:
Try to keep perspective….it’s VERY hard……it will come out in the wash.
His attempts at portraying you as a poor parent.
Why all of a sudden? Well…because he’s punishing YOU.
Tha’ts it…..he’ s using the CPS in his pawn…..this is why CPS isn’t able to ‘catch’ the parents who end up murdering their children or keep them in box’s under beds…..etc….they are too busy following up on claims like your ex’s.
Your seeking medical care for your child, you investigated day care, you with your child……your doing the right things! Do not doubt your parenting…..but look at the source.
I agree with Oxy’s advice…..and I don’t think this is the last you have seen of CPS……..take it as routine……he will call and call……
This will not serve him well.
Keep documenting, following the law to a T, be the best parent you can be, and slap him with this in court.
He’s not entering uncharterd waters……with all his antics. It’s been done before him!
Do not discuss anything with your ex, unless it’’s court ordered you must.
Offer nothing more than you have to…..
In my situation with my kids…..the only ‘right’ the father has is to check grades online……he doesn’t…even after all his ‘cries’ of I love my kids, I want to be part of their life, when he was offered by the judge…..the token of checking grades online……..He walked! It was ME he was trying to affect…..and using the kids…….
This is the game. No secret, yet no less difficult to live.
Root yourself in for the long haul……he ain’t going away…
Try to identify your ‘open’ mouseholes he can creep in and affect you and child…….and cement them up……close them off. Some you will not be able to…..but this is where documentation comes in, and especially when a child is so young.
I would also look at his acusations as possible projections…..what trail is he trying to mislead you, attorneys and CPS from finding? Could it be possible HE is abusing the child?
If I recall….isn’t your ex dating his attorney?
…..my attorney wouldn’t even hire me until after she was off the case! So to have joint accounts etc….with his attorney….
This should be pointed out to the judge……
Excuse me if I got someone else mixed up with you…..and disregard.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 3:46pm
kim frederick says:
Banana, listen to EB and learn all you can. She’s the bomb.
Whenever you feel weak or afraid, tell yourself to get your EB on. Take a deep breath and then do it! She knows of what she speaks.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:07pm
banana says:
Erin,
I am less than thrilled to hear “he aint going away”
But I do hope you are right when you say “this will not serve him well”
My attorney is working up an emergency motion. Shewas surprised it took her two days and over 20 pages. She was only half way through the incedent report and she was already on “Q” at 11 pages!
She is requesting an order of protection from anything farther than text massages immediately regarding pick-up and drop-off and our son’s health. Pick up and drop off will be at the trooper headquarters.
I am already photographing. I just have to be more consistant because I worry only taking pictures some of the time will make me look like I’m hiding something.
I worry too when you suggest that he is projecting the abuse. He is accusing me of neglect: not supervising my son.
I know he is way to selfish to really pay attention to our son. I watched him for 9 months with our son and I know how he rarely paid attention to me in our short three years.
He only does well when it benefits him. So you can bet your arse he’s only playing super dad if someone his watching.
ADVICE PLEASE:
Everyone here is saying to follow visitation to a a T also.
Saying if he is one minute late to leave, but let’s present a scenareo.
Let’s say I am meeting my S/P on my way to work to pick UP my son and drop him off at day care, and he is late.
1) Do I leave, and text him asking that he drive our son to daycare?
2)What if he drops him off at my XMIL?
3)Do I call the cops and report that my son was not dropped off at Day care?
Thanks. I want to be prepared.
Erin,
Can you give me some specifics on “Mouse holes” you might suggest I close up?
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:38pm
kim frederick says:
All really good questions. Our girl is listening. EB?
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 9:43pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
I would see (and this may be very inconvenient) if you can make the trade off at the cop-shop every time. DO not let him pick the kid up at the day care or drop him off there.
Only you (or a designated other person) and ONLY at the cop shop. The thing is if he has ANY WIGGLE ROOM he will use it to undermine you.
He cares NOT a WHIT for your son, he only cares and is using the child as a CLUB to hit YOU over the head, to punish you.
He will pull out EVERY DIRTY TRICK that he can. He will violate every agreement, and keep up the crap.
SO if you want him to go away, you need to make it inconvenient for HIM, and that he gets no “reward” for not sticking to the rules (i.e. making trouble for you) which means, if you can arrange it that someone else picks up and drops off your child and HE NEVER SEES YOU.
The only ONLY reason for visitation is to hassle you! Period.
You have to take the “reward” away from him (seeing you and making your life miserable and keeping you off balance) It is his LAST VESTAGE OF CONTROL OVER YOU.
Let your attorney figure out some way if she can so that you get an ORDER OF PROTECTION of some kind, or a STRICT visitation thing and stick to it to a tee. If you have a friend or close person who can do the “in person” transfer of the child that would be I think IDEAL as he couldn’t see you.
If you must be there, make it at a cop shop and have a cop there with you so there is NO CONVERSATION WITH HIM. NONE, ZIP ZERO CONVERSATION. That will take all the FUN out of it for him. He wil lthen, I think, get bored with it. We KNOW FOR A FACT he does NOT care for the baby, so if there is no fun in it, what is the point?
What Narcissistic supply can someone get from a baby? Babies are more “trouble than they are worth” except to use as a club to mess with you. I think if you can take the fun out of it for him, then he will fade away after a few months.
Then the e mails will be only like “pick him up at the cop shop at 7:45″ End of e mail. NO response to anything else. He will get bored with that. mad too probably but he will be BOXED in. By having him pick up and drop off the baby at the cop shop, he will HAVE TO BE THERE PRETTY MUCH ON TIME.
Good luck, Banana, you know I am here for you and on your side!@ We all are! (((hugs))) and my prayers!
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 11:10pm
heavenbound says:
I know this is trivial to what could be and to what others are dealing with right now, but I had to talk to the p today because he called at time he was suppose to be picking my son up to tell me he wasn’t (he will tomorrow, because my son wants to go) and when I said “well, I have to go” he interrupted me to say “well, I’m going to get off of here.” He has done this every time we have had to speak since he has been gone…..The longer the day the madder I have gotten. I am soooo ticked off. I want to tell him off, I know though not to do that but I hate his “got the last word crap”. Oh, I’m just so angry My blood pressure is up or something and it’s just killing any happiness for the blessing of him not having my son to play head games with today. I’m feeling a lot of hate right now.
I just had to get that off my chest.
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Saturday, 14 November 2009 @ 11:26pm
henry says:
Heaven – It would piss me off that he called at the time he was supposed to pick up his son instead of calling earlier. Was your son expecting him at a certain time? How old is your son? That was a crappy thing to do. Makes me feel sad for your son… THEY always get the last word, it’s a form of control, like he was in control of the call.. I dislike this creep ass of a dad more all the time..just breathe and relax – dont let him work you like this, he is not worth it
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 12:10am
henry says:
Heaven Read Oxys post/advice above to Banana – it is the same thing you should do.
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 12:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear Heave,
Henry is right it is the “I have to have the last word” control bit that they do.
Next time, just say “well, gotta go–bye!” and HANG UP before he has a chance to say anything. LOL Better yet, just let it roll off your back and laugh at the spathole (that’s henry’s word) LOL
If we change our way of THINKING about what they do, it doesn’t GET TO US any more. We put the buttons they push on OUT OF ORDER and don’t let them connect to us.
They know which button to “push this and make her mad” or “push this and make her cry” etc. etc. but we just have to disconnect the wires and they can push til they are blue in the face and WE DONT CARE!!!! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 12:25am
ErinBrock says:
Banana:
Yes, to a T! It sounds as if you have asked for a bit of flexability, and he has taken the flexability to a new level.
Remember, if there is something you want, or could be more convenient or benefit YOU in any way…..an S will sabotage and exploit it……they view these ‘requests’ as announcing your vulnerability….and your doomed with them!
So….you must eliminate any show of emotions or vulnerability….as it gives them a headsup of what ‘gets’ to you.
You must NEVER ask for a ‘favor’ or change set plans. The plans MUST be your bible! Come hell or high water YOU must do whatever it takes to see to it….your on time, you meet at the scheduled place, your there and square. PERIOD!
So….that said….he will have nothing on you, no guilt, no, you owe me….I did so and so for you last time, no nothing…..and you can and will expect him to follow to a T.
I would suggest waiting a reasonable time period….10 minutes max. This shows your being ‘reasonable’ to the courts.
You DO NOT have to take his calls or texts, this seems to be an avenue to stretch the limits and cause troubles.
If he doesn’t want his son on the scheduled times…..fine, no change of days. He must work his schedule around his son….He’s a parent. The courts would expect this.
Like Oxy says…..make it inconvenient to him!
When you take the photos, make sure the date is set. Don’t make it obvious with your son…..okay kiddo…pose, turn right, turn left…..Take them of him in the bathtub showing you his rubber duckie, or another naked or diapered time……ask him to do a summersault when he is only wearing a diaper, or show mommy your muscles, flex….ooohhh your so strong…make it a fun game…..this way, the kid won’t grow up thinking he is being ‘inventoried’ by mom….and you won’t be accused of god forbid….child porn!
Download the pics immediately and run a disk off….keep it in a safe and never destroy.
If you son does get an injury, take a photo……just become the mom with the camera. It’s routine.
You must be at work on time. Save your late ‘passes’ for YOUR emergencies….not the S placing you in this position.
Think about the arrangements you make with him, and what would work best for YOU in all scenarios. Knowing him.
Maybe ask for son to be dropped off the night before. If he is late, it isn’t going to make you lose your job.
Your scenarios are tough….The ultimate answer is …..You need to figure a way to put the responsibility BACK on him.
I would try to keep him away from any day care, but this may be impossible. In that case, you leave, go to work and let the S drop him off at daycare…..that’s the best I can come up with…
After he has turned in a few day care providers……someone will take note! Wow what a coincidence, when little Johnny is in a particular day care…..CPS is called in? Hmmmm.
Banana…..no they don’t go away, as long as they ‘get’ something from the behaviors…..So …..MAKE HIM….go away by YOUR behaviors/responses.
Remember, this is a business deal…..there are NO EMOTIONS in business! DO NOT take anything personally, your on a mission here!
As pissed as he may provoke you to be…..DO WHATEVER you MUST to remain indifferent to him, and his antics…..go against your grain……this takes practice and strength. The more you do it, the more empowered you become, the more you will continue and It will become second nature.
Listen, they all turn into the Disneyland dad, during a divorce…..they are on stage during this time……whatever~….let em….remember IT”S NOT PERSONAL, you just keep documenting ALL the behaviors.
You need to get him to a point where he is bored with your responses…..only then will he move on….
This process is very long…..during the time between separation and divorce/custody settlements……it seems like an eternity. BUT…..this is the crucial time, you need to be documenting, collecting FACTS….reports, pictures, letters from folks etc…..and REMAIN STRONG AND STEDFAST in your goal……or…..KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE PRIZE.
You will not win all the battles……you going for a win of the ‘war’.
If you can document and get the picture across to the attorney….unemotionally……it’ll bite him in the ass in the end!
You can’t retaliate, you have to maintain the image of good mother, timely, caring, providing, loving……leaving NO stone unturned. The way you always are towards your baby.
Don’t worry about HIS claims…..are they true? NO….so move on……..take it like a grain of salt and learn to let it drip off you quick….Ya, Ya….blah ,blah….ho hum….
Hey, I was accused of faking Cancer, being mentally Ill, an alcoholic, and a bad parent…..If kids did poorly in school, my fault, if they fell, my fault, if they got sick, my fault….
Okay….then show me some substance…….what are your claims based on?
They are alarming….but none were true…..In fact, one child responded to him when he said I was an alcoholic…..she said…”Doesn’t mom have to drink to be an alcoholic?”.
He may have been better off saying I was a lesbian…..something no one would be able to prove……Or a bank robber…….AN ALCOHOLIC….that claim is absurd…because anyone….ANYONE who has ever spent time with me…..knows I am not much of a drinker…..I can open a bottle of wine and have one glass….end up throwing the rest away 6 days later….. I also had files and files of medical records….Oh yeah….he said I paid the dr’s off and forged the records…that’s right.
Oh, OOOkkkkay!
Point is…..we can’t defend ourselves against all the claims……We need to take an offensive approach to our lives…..cover your ass when it comes to the S, but do not find yourself defending each claim he makes….it won’t end…..
How we can secure the mouse holes…..it all depends on YOUR situation…..
I knew what the S was going to attack, and how……so I counter controlled and did what I could to seal off that entry. Yours seems to be attacking through the child….Don’t give him any ‘means’.
IE….I knew S would break into the home, so I installed cameras….all over…..he got caught and I turned film over to police……Made it known……
I sealed up the hole where he has no idea of my level of security systems…..and he won’t take that chance….He never wanted to be recorded.
I knew he would try and steal my rental home……after it was declared mine….I immediately got it signed over into my name only, I used my Power of attorney……I prevented him from making me fight him again in court for something that was already awarded to me…..as he had possession and would have impeded my income.
I knew he wanted access to the kids via a phone call……once a week, he used it as an avenue of abuse, I recorded the calls and played them for the judge…..boom…..NC to the kids…..
I played by the rules, and when they were broken, I reported.
I continued to pay all the bills, took out cash advances from CC’s…..I didn’t cut him off from CC’s etc…..(my cards I did)….I didn’t cancel his car insurance…..I never did anything so he could twist me into the appearance of vindictive or malice. He did it all!
Like I said…..I expected MORE RELIEF, during the process…….but we don’t……we must go the length! In the end, if you do the right things, aid in the exposure to the courts…..they will hang themselves.
If he is late, you leave…..send him an email stating due to his tardiness, he must take child to daycare. If you get a call from daycare, child is not there, email him back giving him 1 hour to get kid to daycare or you will call police…..and follow through.
I would run these scenarios by your attorney…..from an unemotional perspective…..to confirm. If YOUR paying for daycare, the kid must be there, you must know where you child is at all times.
I would also suggest, investigating a few other daycares in case he pulls another antic….and maybe get to know the provider and ‘give them a heads up’ if they won’t freak out. Ask them never to give ANY informati