LETTERS TO LOVEFRAUD: Vigorous campaign to portray me as angry and hostile
PDF Editor’s note: On April 15, 2009, we posted “Bob’s” story—Leaning on his family while battling his wife. Well, the battle continues. Bob is asking the Lovefraud community for suggestions.
I recently received the email below from my P ex-wife and wanted to share it with your readers. I would like someone to analyze this to get some insight and commentary on this situation. It is so reminiscent of what I have read on Lovefraud.com and in books and comes really without surprise; it just surprises me of the lengths she will go to try to falsely trash me in an effort to obtain custody of our kids. The allegations are either fabricated or extremely exaggerated. She has a knack for manipulating people to write letters for her and support her. She has no fear of me and really no fear that I will endanger our kids; she knows I would never hurt them. This is all blowing smoke, but there is motive.
A quick background: Post-divorce with joint custody, she moved out of state to be with her lover and took me to court to move the kids with her. Her motion was denied and the kids still live with me in my state during the school year, but she moved regardless. Her child support to me was tripled by the court order, and that has angered her. She lies to my kids about the circumstances of her move and casts blame at me for us being so far apart geographically.
During the custodial evaluation, up to the hearing and after the order was handed down she has been on a vigorous campaign to portray me as angry and hostile towards her. Apparently this is the only way she could convince the courts to give her custody. She stopped paying me for children’s expenses after the court order was received, attempting to elicit angry emails from me. That was over a year ago and this continues to this day, even after I took her to court this year to force payment of children’s expenses. After that court order, she still refuses to pay me what is legitimately owed. She is very angry and vindictive, but she conceals it from others very well.
Note, I have been to her home on only three occasions to drop off or pick up my kids and she lives over 1,000 miles from me. She travels to my state with regularity to pick up and drop off the kids at my home without any fear of me. The characterizations of me—“hostile, angry, vindictive, inconsistent, unbalanced, unstable, threatening, harassing, bi-polar”—are a common theme in her emails.
Bob:
I have just returned from a meeting with local law enforcement. I met with them because I fear for my safety and the safety of our children. Your actions, writings and overall demeanor are unstable, inconsistent, vindictive, and threatening.
During this discussion, I shared the following:
1) Our guidance from the Court.
2) years of correspondence between Bob and me, highlighting particularly the exchanges that were most hostile, threatening and vindictive.
3) A tape of Bob’s wire tapping of my phone while I lived in (city removed).
4) Several documents that prove Bob’s attempts to hack into my bank accounts, my AT&T account, my email account and one credit card account.
5) Data I have collected through Bob’s emails of him stalking me, including one today where he has details of my flight information that I did not provide to him. There are several other emails that confirm this pattern of behavior.
6) A written statement from the Summer Camp employee that he interrogated in August, complete with her statement that he appeared unstable and made her uncomfortable. She also confirms that he explicitly told her that he had sole custody of the children and that I was not allowed to make the decision I had made when enrolling him in his summer activities.
7) Evidence suggesting Bob’s taping of the children’s and my conversations.
I agreed that I would follow up this information with an opinion from my therapist, since she has been privy to the daily deluge of drama and interactions and has formed some opinions, based upon what she has read.
The officer confirms that there are red flags in this situation that do not need to be ignored. His suggestion is that I state first my concerns in writing directly to you. I am once again asking you to stop this harassment and contemptible behavior immediately. If you continue, I will have no choice but to proceed with the process of highlighting these situations and writings to the proper authorities and to seek protection for myself and our children.
This is not a threat and these are not games. Your anger, vindictiveness, and nonacceptance of the rules we were given have resulted in harassing and predatory behaviors which are at a minimum, disturbing and at the extreme, dangerous.
Our community saw a triple murder within the last two months at the hand of their father, a white-collar banking manager. The background and circumstances of this heinous crime were eerily similar to our past two years. I will no longer take the chances of what your volatility, instability or hostility might lead to.
Angie
written by Lovefraud Reader • Permalink •
Isabell says:
So what’s up with the keys? My ex also had keys to EVERYTHING. And, he locked everything. I used to joke, “He’d put a lock on my underwear drawer if he could figure a way to do it.”
When he moved out, he did so peaceably. Then I found out he was sneaking into the house. I could just tell someone had been there. When I questioned him, he swore he had not been in the house. When backed into the corner with facts, his excuse was that he had to pick something up.
Long story short, I changed the locks and bolted down enterences that were largely unused. I unplugged the electric garage opener.
Months later I found he had planted a loaded 367 magnum. He had partially installed a survaillence system, but didn’t have enough time to get it up and working, because I changed the locks.
Oh, he tried desperately to break into our house, while he had our son, and I was on an overnight field trip with our daughter. Fortunately, because he was such a freak about security windows, screens, alarm systems, etc. He had pretty much made the house safe, from even himself.
Anyway… Is there an expert reason for the issues with keys?
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Isabell says:
Sorry about the triple post. My puter froze and when it unfroze, it sent my message three times. : – \
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kim frederick says:
Keys. Well think about it. A key is a way to by-pass a boundry. Sometimes a key is given willfully and sometimes not, but at any rate a key is a way in. If you look at the P’s you can bet they keep their own stuff locked tight. Privacy issues and all.
A key equals power to a P.
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ErinBrock says:
Oh…..so true kim..
There was an instance where a client invited the S to go on his yaght in the med….but he had to work and cook etc…maintain them…..
Well…..he never studied the sailing manual…..and sat like a king worshiping the sun all day…..went into the ports and bought candy bars that my boss found under his pillow hidden……..CANDY BARS!
He never paid a dime for food, the best wines, the best of everything, ended up NEVER WORKING…. and he couldn’t even come out after dinner and said hey….anyone want a snickers?
No, he would disappear and gorge on them in secret…..
My clients wife STILL talks about that!!!!!
How embarrasing……
BUT……he had no clue how selfish he was….they never have a clue…..
He tells this high falutant story on how he is just so well liked clients pay him to go sailing on their yaghts in the Med….
HE NEVER NOTICED THIS CLIENT NEVER CALLED HIM AGAIN and asked him to go home early……(he had planned on going back to their home in Paris to continue the ‘party’for another week plus) BUT….they booted him!!!!
Oh yes…..It’s the SOCIOPATH OVERIDE!!!!! What’s yours is mine and what’s mine is mine……
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skylar says:
Good one Kim, “A key is a way to by-pass a boundry”
Keys are also a sign of authority. The mayor gives you a key to the city. The prison warden carries all the keys. Keys unlock a LOCKED door. Only authority has that power.
The p’s are authority-parasites. Plus keys are shiny! LOL.
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OxDrover says:
Good point Skylar, keys are a way to by pass a boundary and they do represent authority.
One of my P-X-friends who stole from me, was told DO NOT EVER COME TO MY HOUSE/FARM UNLESS YOU CALL FIRST.
Then, she found a date she thought I would be gone to town with my son D, and I igot a CALL asking if I was home and if she could come here to get some of her stuff that was temporarily stored here. I said, “yes, I am home, you can come. Where are you?” She almost swallowed her tongue and said, “at the gate, but I wouldn’t have come in if you weren’t home.” She had called all right, but after driving 40+ miles????Nah, she was thinking I was gone, but she just called to double check before she drove in the gate (which because I was home was open)
After that, the boundary was CALL 24 HOURS IN ADVANCE before coming. I didn’t let her out of my sight that day, and pretended nothing was wrong, but you could tell she was TIGHT JAWED and knew she had been ‘caught”—-I haven’t seen her since. In fact, they abandoned all the things they had stored here months ago in our old shed which we will burn when the weather permits….I did find out though why we probably won’t ever hear from them again, they had borrowed money from Son D and they obviiously aren’t going to pay that back.
Also heard from a mutual friend that they are smearing us, but fortunately, he did not buy it, so they are running out of victims that they know and have about reached the bottom of the barrel on people to use. Actually though, they are currently sponging off of his mentally slow brother.
When we leave here everything is locked up tight, gates and buildings, and alarm system on.
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AKA Bob says:
Its funny that they will lie about anything if they believe they won’t get caught. Once I confronted my P on not disclosing income which she received during our divorce negotiations which I discovered. She turned white, said she had to go the bathroom and ran out of the room, came back a few minutes later with denials and excuses.
On the key issue, a few years back there some burglaries in my P’s neighborhood. She traditionally left her garage entry to the house unlocked, but during this period she began locking it and hiding a key in the garage for the boys. She even told me where the key was hidden (we were getting along then). One day when my boys were staying with me I took my son to P’s house to pick something of his up. I looked for the key and it was moved. I asked him if he knew where it was. He told me he did, but he couldn’t tell me where it was because Landscaper hid it and told him not to tell me where the key was. I have to wonder if P put him up to this. Can you understand why I despise landscaper??
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skylar says:
I just had another epiphany and wasn’t sure which thread to post it in. So I guess here is good.
I realized that one of the driving forces behind the P’s behavior, the force that keeps them acting irrationally, is the need to maintain their facade at ALL COSTS. Even in the face of truth staring them in the face they will keep up their act and reiterate their lies. They are so afraid of their facade crumbling.
I realized that they will sacrifice EVERYTHING, they will go to the moon and back, to continue playing the role that they’ve sketched out for themselves.
This is why my xP continues to play the sad lonely heart and the concerned cat father. Even after I’ve told him that I know all about his lies and that I GET IT. I get what his soul is better than he does. He won’t back down. He must maintain that veneer because he sees it as the defence that allows him to continue his underground sabotage, slander and poison. So he continues to act as nice as can be. This is why he was so unnerved when I showed up without warning. He looked trashed and it doesn’t match with the veneer he wants to show me.
My P mother is the exact same way. Whenever I catch her at p-behavior, she gets extra nice and super-saintly.
I guess this is another way we can manipulate their behaviors. The first step, telling them you know how to spot a P, will make them redouble their efforts to not seem like a P. The next step is hidden video cameras.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar, “manipulating” them is very difficult, and someetimes can have FATAL consquences— and that is not hyperbole, but fact. I think Laci Peterson got preg against Scots wishes and that is why he killed her and her unborn child. You never know to WHAT LENGTHS they will go to protect their image or what they want, so the BEST WAY to “manipulate” them is NC.
I am NC with my egg donor, and oh, she WOULD pretend to be saintly and she does pretend to be saintly with everyone in the world except me, but I HAVE SEEN THE MASK DROP, and I have SEEN the ugly face of evil behind her mask. I’m not sure if she is a P or if she is simply a TOXIC enabler, but it doesn’t matter because the TOXIC covers a multitude of abuse of various kinds.
If lyou share children with them you may have to have limited contact with them, but it doesn’t have to be more than the MINIMUL required by law.
Bob, I can undersand fully why you do not like “landscaper” but he is either a DUPE of hers or he is just like her, but he is all caught up in the DRAMA she presents, and just as I said about my egg donor the only way to handle someone who is TOXIC is to NC them. Give them the POTTED PLANT TREATMENT which is treat them the same way you would treat a potted plant in a hotel lobby. Do not NOTICE OR SPEAK TO IT. If you think it spoke to you, of course you would not reply. LOL
Trying to “get one up on” or trying to “manipulate” them, is only a GUARENTEED LOSING PROPOSITION, even noticing them is a WIN for them.
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skylar says:
Oxy,
what I meant is that if Bob needs her to meet certain court ordered requirements, one way to get her to comply is with the SUBTLE threat of exposure. Video cameras, punch clocks, 3rd party witnesses etc… anything that will record the behavior and she is aware of these records will make her compliant because she doesn’t want to lose her veneer. That is what I meant by manipulate. You know as long as we must deal with them, we need to understand their thought processes and use them to our advantages.
If Bob gets angry and demands her compliance, she will just respond with oppositional defiance, but SUBTLEY implantiing the idea that her behavior is being observed and recorded will make her think that it is HER idea to comply. She will believe that she is responding in her usual crafty ways to get what she wants.
An example was when I told my P to quit smoking and he wouldn’t. But when I told him that the cigarette butts he left at a phone booth were evidence that he had been there and that he was easy to track because of his cigarette butts, he quit. That was almost 20 years ago. I didn’t even know he was a P back then. This is what I mean by giving them a story that puts them in the role of being a sinister, sneaky P. They like it, so they will respond to it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
I think this woman is way beyond “subtle” threats, and my experience is that “outing” them sometimes makes them more determined to punish you for knowing and saying what they are.
Bob has got a great advocate in the parental counselor, who is apparently wise to the manipulations of someone like Bob’s X and so hopefully she will hang herself with the rope she has been given. So Bob can deal with her via this counselor rather than directly. I am not sure what state Bob lives in but this counselor is the greatest idea since sliced bread, I think.
At least he doesn’t have to converse with her about these things directly but can go through this counselor who is “objective.”
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amber says:
Skylar..speaking of needing to keep up the facade was what my ex was all about. Drove him crazy trying to keep all his lies in order. But he would tell ME how he would decieve other people and keep up the illusion (Why I didn’t think he would do it to me is another story) But he would often tell me in the most cocky of ways, “they just don’t have a clue.” Like he was proud of it. And the last straw for me was holding his phone in his face reading him convos with another woman and he ACTUALLY tried to tell me there was NOTHING going on. She was just a friend. WOW! And I could literally see the wheels turning in his head, trying to figure out, “what can I tell her to make her believe me and not be mad.” It’s like you said, they will go to the moon and back trying to cover their ass. Then he tried to change the subject and acuse me of cheating. Not even when the truth was right there could he acknowledge that he was wrong. I knew that had to be the last time he would be allowed to manipulate me.
N/C has never been an issue for me..to be honest he did all the calling, all the initial first contact anytime we spoke. I rarely picked up the phone to call him, because he was so constant about making contact with me first. And whenever we had an argument you can guarantee that I didn’t touch my phone, BUT he’s just as stubborn. He can go for MONTHS and not speak to me. But I know how destructive his behavior when we don’t speak, and how much he hates himself. But he ALWAYS breaks first and is the one to call. Before, I would sit by my phone agonizing over whether he was going to call or not. BUt this time, I hope I made it very clear that I don’t want to him pick up the phone 2 months from now and try and make nice, cuz I won’t be interested. Let’s just hope it works! I just know it will KILL him that I’m not there to pick up the phone this time because I always used to. This time is different. The ball is in my court for the first time and not that I’m trying to manipulate him, I’m trying to make it clear that he no longer has any value in my life. PERIOD!
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AKA Bob says:
Based upon the game playing last night, I felt it important to document with the parenting consultant her defiance of his order. Someone above wrote to kill her with kindness.
Angie,
Thank you for dropping the boys off at our house last night. While that may have been convenient for you, in the future I just ask that you notify me in advance if you wish to change the exchange location or time that we have agreed upon or Dr. Smtih has directed so that we are not in different places at the same time. I would have liked to have been home when you dropped them off instead of a 20 minute drive away.
I hope you enjoyed your time with the boys.
Bob
Clearly she’ll know I am tattling to the consultant, I call it documenting. The boys’ therapists says that shaming her is of no use, she knows no shame, she is without conscience.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Bob,
You are right, she has NO SHAME or conscience, I think while the e mail you sent to her did tell her you were “tattling” on her, it also gave her the SATISFACTION that she “got your goat” and that the parenting consultant won’t do a bunch if anything about it.
It IS better I think to be “kind” and appear rational (so tht if you have to use these e mails as evidence in a court) that you are ALWAYS seen to be so kind and caring. Even though I know you would probably rather b1atch-slap her up side the head! LOL
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The Cow Bird says:
Bob:
It sounds like you have a very smart and supportive family. It might make sense to keep your situation off this site for the world to see and begin a proactive, covert approach.
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geminigirl says:
Erin, My p daughters ex husband told me that recently she went with her new toy boy lover, {Hes 25, shes 45}to a barbecue. It soon became apparent to the toy boy that it was a private party, and that my daughter and lover boy were not invited or welcome. Lover boy was embarrassed, and left, but D ,even when she was TOLD but the host that the party was private, just took sausages out of her cooler bag. plonked them on the barbie, and said,”Its OK, Ive brought my own sausages!” LOL! How thick skinned is that! Lover boy has gone now, she only usd him too, he used to help pay the rent, and when she came in tired from work had cleaned and tidied the flat and got the tea on.Maybe she should ahve hung on to him!They have no consciense and no shame, and no idea how to behave. Love, Gem.XX
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ThePeregrine says:
This is a tough one, Bob, and I’ve been through it myself. Due to lack of time I haven’t read all the above posts, but based on my experience here they contain some valuable insights.
One of the hardest questions I’ve ever asked myself: What is a reasonable man’s response to unreasonable actions and accusations?
There is no easy answer. Be steadfast in your love for your children. Be certain of what you know and believe. Take good care of yourself, for you won’t be able to deal with any of this if you are not fundamentally OK.
I wish I had time now to say more, but maybe it’s just as well that I leave it at this. Peace be with you and yours.
Jeff
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AKA Bob says:
Cow Bird is probably correct, maybe we need to shut this down so that the P won’t read this.
My brother calls my ex-P the Cow Bird. Has children and leaves them with other people to raise them.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Bob,
It is your story, your life, your decision, but frankly I think that blogging here is very empowering and supportive. I am not sure who the “cowbird” blogger is, I have not seen them post before.
It is odd to me that someone would choose such a blogger term for a name since, as you point out, the cow bird is one that leaves its offspring for others to raise—is sort of a “psychopathic” bird if you can apply such a term to an animal’s instinctive and adaptive behavior. But, we each choose our on-line names and identies for our own purposes, so cowbird can freely choose to use any name without my permission. I will say that I disagree with cowbird’s advice 100%, but again, that is YOUR decision, not mine.
What is the likelyhood of the P reading your blogs and knowing that it is you here? I used to worry about that, but you know, at this point in time, I really don’t care…I would mail copies of my posts to my P son if I wanted to have contact with him.
The support and knowledge I have gained here is worth more than I can say!
God bless you, Bob, and your children! They are fortunate to have you and your wife in their lives.
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Isabell says:
AKA Bob,
The “kindness” letter you wrote above will thrill her to no end. She will LOVE the validation that she caused you to be somewhere else then where you wanted to be. Think about it.
You don’t have to send her a letter to document the circumstances. Doing so, will give her opportunity to write something that discredits you. Make your notes, and say nothing. Don’t even give her ANYTHING. A non-reactions is the most powerful influence that you have.
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Elizabeth Conley says:
“AKA Bob says:
Based upon the game playing last night, I felt it important to document with the parenting consultant her defiance of his order. Someone above wrote to kill her with kindness.
Angie,
Thank you for dropping the boys off at our house last night. While that may have been convenient for you, in the future I just ask that you notify me in advance if you wish to change the exchange location or time that we have agreed upon or Dr. Smtih has directed so that we are not in different places at the same time. I would have liked to have been home when you dropped them off instead of a 20 minute drive away.
I hope you enjoyed your time with the boys.
Bob
Clearly she’ll know I am tattling to the consultant, I call it documenting. The boys’ therapists says that shaming her is of no use, she knows no shame, she is without conscience.
”
Personally, I think this is a good idea. Quietly document the infraction, then drop the matter. Always CC the custody consultant when you send her an email. Just do it out of habit. It will help.
I suggest that you keep your emails to her gracious and brief. Don’t attempt to match her impressive vocabulary and elaborate writing style. (The “articulate” writing style she’s clearly proud of will work against her if your correspondence becomes legal evidence.) She’s trying to bully you when she points out how impressive her writing skills are in comparison to yours. Actually, she’s making an @ss of herself. Don’t compete with her on that front!
If you are brief and gracious, the contrast between your two writing styles will work in your favor, not hers.
Parse your words carefully when corresponding with the Custody Consultant.
“Dear Sir,
The attachment is an email from one of the children’s mother’s associates. This man and his children are often present when my children visit their mother. Do you think his presence is in the children’s best interests? I have some concerns, and I value your objective point of view.
Sincerely,
Bob Concerned Father
”
You’re right not to get into it with the X’s himbos. The landscaper sounds like a total Neanderthal. Note that his communication implied that he thinks punching people is the manly thing to do. He has a standard of manliness that my women friends and I frequently refer to as “testosterone poisoning.” If he works himself up sufficiently, he’ll do it. I suggest you avoid this, because these dramas don’t always play out in your favor. Testosterone poisoning is frequently fatal.
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CAmom says:
I was married to an S. for many years. He has a PhD in clinical pyschology. He knew exactly how to manipulate me into marriage, and how to keep me in the marriage. Long story. I eventually discovered he is gay. He said he isn’t gay, but can only enjoy sex with other men, and that he loved me and wanted me to stay with him. He also claimed he is a mystic and sexual and social norms don’t apply to him. He authored a spiritual self-help book available on Amazon.
I’m about 5 years out of the marriage. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever been through–worse than my childhood with a sadistic father. I left totally confused, thought black was white, up was down, etc.
The best tactic I could use, and did use, was to have NO CONTACT, despite his emails, letters sent by mail (certified and regular) and letters left on my doorstep, letters from his atty. etc. After a while I made sure he didn’t have my phone # tho he called everyone I knew trying to get it. I really believed we could have a civil and amicable divorce, given his “spirituality” & background.
During the divorce he asked me to come over and pick up some of my things. He was being very nice on the phone, so I agreed. Upon arriving, he showed me into the guest room and bent down…when he stood up he had a shotgun in his hand that he jokingly called a “people killer.” He said it was loaded and pointed it at me “jokingly.” I realized the best thing to do was acknowledge the shotgun, admire it, and compliment him on his purchase. That made him happy and he put it down.
He said he’d bought it that day. He then said if the divorce didn’t go his way, he would “come over and shoot myself on your front lawn.” The police can do nothing in these cases.
Over the years and throughout the divorce he choked me, came over and broke my window (twice) when I didn’t answer the door, threw me on the floor, etc. I was unable to get a restraining order as he wasn’t “calling or coming over at 2 in the morning on a regular basis.” I didn’t pursue it as restraining orders are pretty worthless in this city, and he was well-known.
Needless to say, the divorce went “his way.” And I was happy to let it go his way. And fortunately, we did not have children together. The divorce settlement was so unfavorable to me my atty. had me sign a declaration saying I would not sue her in the future. She was also worried about presenting the settlement in front of the judge as it was so skewed she was afraid the judge would reprimand her.
I was only interested in my life & the lives of the people I cared about.
There is healing after removing yourself from the S. If you can’t completely sever ties, keep contact to a minimum. The ex constantly tried to engage me using any method possible. Nice, threatening, gaslighting, kind, crying, hatred, sending flowers, books, the gamut.
What he hated most was no response from me. And it was scary because I worried that my lack of response would provoke him to use the “people killer” on me…I was always second-guessing, always trying to figure out what he might do next.
Now he’s living in FL and has profiles up on several dating sites. He presents very well–educated, affluent, articulate.
I didn’t really believe in evil until I met him. There’s a lot more to this story, but the main thing is to stay safe, not feed them in any way, and believe in a life after the S. There is. I had a life before him, and had to be reminded there would be a life after him.
Trusting again is the hardest part. But my S detector is activated and I doubt this will happen ever again. And through this process I learned my sister is an S, which is frightening because she is someone whose name the majority of you would recognize. It’s a facade, and I believe S’s have no real Self. Which does make them scary.
I have no contact with that sister either but since she is so famous can follow her on the Net. She tried to maintain contact but was so toxic I had to stop.
She tried to force her ex to take custody of their infant child after he’d been denied any access to the child b/c of suspicion of child abuse. When he refused to take the baby and leave the state (she offered him money to do so) she almost gave the baby up for adoption…she would rather have the abuser raise the baby as she felt the baby would “hurt my chances of finding another husband.” Sick, very sick…the daughter is now grown and not surprisingly is heavily into drugs.
Zero or very limited contact is a must. And disconnecting as much as possible if contact is required.
AKA BOB I agree with everyone who says don’t give her anything. Don’t give her boyfriend anything. Resist the impulse to point out her faults, etc and focus on the children and their futures. These people are just not worth it, and they won’t change.
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AKA Bob says:
I simply will not respond to or acknowledge the landscaper. This is a man who unbeknownst to me invited my oldest son to his parent’s lake home on the weekend of my wedding last year. This is man who has threatened to tell my children about “my behavior” and most likely does have inappropriate discussions with them.
I met my current wife online. The landscaper met her out once on an online date before we began dating. She caught him looking at himself in his reflection in windows and he made what she felt was inappropriate physical contact with her. After she and I began dating, he told my P that she had a big butt. Why did he make sexual advances if he thought her butt was big? So, landscapers tells my children that he dated my wife. Wholly inappropriate. I suggested to my P that he not have such inappropriate discussions with my children. His reply…..
Ah Bob, Dave McGolddigger, say, I had attempted to catch you by phone, now that’s how I choose to do, take care of my personal business either in person or by phone rather than by email. It has come to my attention that you sent Angie an email titled “Dave McGolddigger” and your intent to have me cease and desist speaking to your children. I think you need to be re-introduced to the fact that I have been spectacularly discreet with what I have chosen to share with your children over the last three years. And if I chose to share with them the fact that I had met Candace long before you had ever met her and I had a drink with her and we met through Match.com, that is the absolute truth and you can have no right whatsoever to tell me to cease and desist from speaking the truth. If you choose to continue on this tact, then I’ll make a more liberal decision on what I choose to share with the children with regard to your behavior the last two months and/or the last two years. So let’s not forget that we don’t want to open the Pandora’s Box. So if you have any further dealings with me, take them to me directly. You know my phone number. Bye
The P chose not to shelter my children, but rather share my email with landscaper to incite him, so he’ll do her dirty work.
These P’s work in amazing ways, albiet transparent.
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AKA Bob says:
When my P first learned about my girlfiend (wife) and met her she really liked her. After my youngest became attached to my wife, the P told me that she wasn’t good enough for me. Yet, she was attempting to convince her to move with me to her new state.
A few years back, I saw a therapist for about a year. He explained to me how my P emasculated me many years ago, early in our marriage. He gave me advise that I should not let onto my P that I am involved with anyone until I was completely serious with long terms plans. I made the mistake of letter the P know way to soon.
FYI, in my state there is no “custody”, court order or agreed upon “parenting time”, with a “parenting plan” as a legal document which includes the “parenting consultant” requirement for conflict. The PC has legal authority to alter court ordered parenting time if he/she believes it is in the best interests of the children. While expensive, he has been well worth it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Bob,
I agree that the PC has definitely been worth it for you, especially dealing with this witch!
Dear CAMom,
Glad you found you way here and glad that you have a working P-dar.
There is much evidence that Ps are neither straight nor gay but just “sex addicted” and many will have sex with a snake if they can get it to let them…anything. Because they don’t have the normal “bonding” ability with others, sex to them is just a bodily function, and nothing more.
I applaud you on NC with your sister. Good call! sorry the child is screwed up though, but there is a big hereditary component and some researchers think the female is more likely to pass on the genes, as well as the environment, and sounds like that child had a real bad hand genetically as well as environmentally from both sides.
again, welcome.
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Isabell says:
Wow!… Thank you CAmom for sharing your horrific experience, and the recovering process.
These stories help me more then I could ever express. I’ve done little else today, except read and comment.
I meet with my attorney, again, tomorrow, and I always get anxious before we meet. As much detail as I have, and it’s significant, when I try to explain it, my mouth goes dry, my heart races, and I feel scared (I always feel scared with I’m sticking up for myself). Nonetheless… I must press forward.
There is still much I have to do to prepare, and I’m a little annoyed with myself for spending so much time here, today. Yet, I keep reading that we are supposed to take care of ourselves. This is something I rearly, if ever do… that is, purposefully take time to care for myself. And, I believe being here, reading, learning, feeling a sense of community with other’s who, not only “get it,” but have lived it; but for the names and specific circumstances, our experience, suffering, and recovery process as a result of the S/P/N all seem to be the same. And, this has a healing power in itself.
I must go. I have to put my head back in the game, and make sure that I’m prepared, ready for tomorrow’s meeting.
Blessings to you all.
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AKA Bob says:
It has been a very tough six years for me since my xP surprised me with a trip to Cancun for my 40th with seven couples including one of my brothers. She also invited her best high school friend (single male), a man that all attendees knew through us and assumed was gay (he came out later) and she housed him in our villa with us on my 40th birthday. Her first known affair was uncovered a week later, and I have lived with a great deal of stress ever since. Her hostile boyfiends injected in my children’s lives, this ongoing war. I feel as if I have been able to handle what has dolled out to me and am still alive, I could probably handle anything.
My wife just emailed me from work…
It must be very gut wrenching to raise your boys only to have them manipulated by the queen of all manipulation whose main focus in life is to alienate them from their father. I have had what I felt were some very heart breaking experiences with my nieces and have had to learn that I have to take a step back because they are not my own and I have no control. This must be extremely difficult for you. I don’t think there is an easy answer.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
Learning to take kcare of ourselves FIRST is hard for some of us who have always felt we had to take care of others first, even if we were ‘bleeding to death” we couldn’t stop to care for ourselves without being made to feel like we were doing wrong.
It takes time to put yourself first, and work. I am still working on that and still at times feel guilty for doing so…it is bred in the bone and trained into the brain, so we are having to overcome a life time of programming. I’m not sure there isn’t some genetic tendency in us too, just as there is with the Ps to be self centered and evil, I think we may bond too much or care too much, a mixture of genetics and training.
Recognizing that we do need to care for ourselves first, because otherwise we will have nothing left to care for our children with and those that we WANT to do for.
good luck tomorrow, and take a deep breath when you feel stressed and dry mouthed. Tell yourself, I am doing the best I can! (((hugs))))
Bob–Is that last paragraph from your wife to you?
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runningaway says:
The thing that amazes me is how quick Sociopaths are at picking up on a weakness or an odd turn of phrase and using it to turn the tables. My S-mom is really good at this. She was able to convince my brother and sister that I was abusing her.
I didn’t read all the comments, so maybe you’ve already heard this. But here are my tips.
1. Don’t engage her. Keep everything strictly business. Don’t argue or let your feelings show. Certified mail and witnesses are really important.
2. Assume she’s lying about everything. I have the feeling the entire first email was all made up to frighten you. When you respond to her accusations it just eggs her on because she’s got you dancing.
3. Remember that she has no soul and doesn’t care about her children other than what she can use them for. And if that’s to ruin your life for her amusement that’s what she’ll do.
4. The less you have to do with her the better. You can’t change her and there is no rhyme or reason to what she does. Get an attorney or a mediator to deal with her and take yourself out of the equation entirely.
I think if you ignore her she’ll get bored and move on to her next victim.
Oh, and speaking as an adult child of a sociopathic mother, I can tell you that she’s favoring one child over the other so that one day she can make one the bad guy and the other the good guy. She’ll divide and conquer them. She’ll convince the good one that he has to protect her from the bad one who is abusing her. This is what my mother did to me. She would give my younger sister things I asked for and give me the opposite hoping that we’d tear each other apart.
I’m happy to report that, while it’s been a struggle sometimes, my sister and I have been very close through the years. And the death of my father last year helped my sister to see my mother for who she really is. And that’s been a blessing.
Find a friend to vent with and let someone else deal with your ex-wife. That’s the best advice I can give you.
Good luck, and believe me, I feel your pain. It’s so sad what these people do to others.
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AKA Bob says:
Yes, my wife sent my that email today.
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OxDrover says:
Runningaway,
Sound advice.
Bob, I’m not sure what conversation prompted your wife to e mail you that paragraph, but she obviously “gets” what you are up against. Her comment about having to step away from her nieces because she had no control shows she understands too, that you have no control over your X. I’m glad she does seem to “get” what you are going through.
Sometimes it is harder to see someone we love targeted than to be targeted ourselves.
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ThePeregrine says:
Hello again, Bob. After glancing over some more of your story, I see myself in it again and I want to share just a thought or two about what has worked for me.
In doing so, I am making a few assumptions. I am assuming you are dealing with an actual sociopath of one kind or another (these are shape-shifters, and they don’t fit just one description). I am also assuming that most of what you’ve shared here is as true as your perspective allows it to be.
“runningaway” is right on the mark (although your ex will not necessarily follow the pattern of runningaway’s mother). Heed that advice! If you’re really dealing with a sociopath, many of the details you’ve reported are untrustworthy and cannot be regarded as facts. It will help you a lot, as it helped me, to interpret your experiences more like this: SHE SAID this or that, or SHE WANTS ME TO BELIEVE that so that I will respond as expected and go running in circles trying to oppose her. If she learns that you took the boyfiend’s e-mail to police, it will please her greatly. Be deliberate in all things. Do not react to her provocations or the provocations of her minions.
BE in control of yourself first, then be in control of the situation that exists in verifiable truths that you can confirm without any information or influence from her. She cannot be trusted at all, because she knows exactly where all your buttons are and when to push them.
These are affirmations I had to repeat to myself and commit to memory, and ultimately manifest in every way. It was hard, but it is worth doing and you will come out of this stronger and wiser. That is the only victory you will enjoy, unless you are very lucky. Don’t count on that luck. Surround yourself with friends who know your heart. Enlighten your children as best you can to the manipulative tricks that ANYONE may use to control them. They’ll eventually put 2 and 2 together to realize it’s their mother they cannot trust, when what you tell them becomes congruent with what they experience.
Demonstrate to your children that you respond to this outrageous drama with love for them, not hate for her. Otherwise they will see you as just another hateful person. That’s another way she can “win,” though she really gains nothing from that but a perverse satisfaction that comes from the illusion of control.
I know this sounds preachy. Sorry for that. All I can say in the final analysis is that it worked for me.
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skylar says:
Wow Perigrine,
excellent advice, well worded and concise.
Especially the part about not responding with hate. it’s what they want. They are so filled with hate that they want all others to feel what they feel.
Don’t do it. Allow yourself to pity them, but don’t show that either. Pitying them helps you to forgive, but that’s just for you, don’t share it.
Most of all pity her boyfriends, I can’t imagine being emasculated to the point that they resort to bullying their gf’s ex-husband. it’s just sad what she did to those guys. Perhaps they were already P’s but she sure took control. We know who wears the pants in that relationshit.
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AKA Bob says:
Drama, Drama, Drama!!!! P’s attorney sent letter to my attorney and the parenting consultant today. It pretty much lays that groundwork that if the PC doesn’t reverse his decision on parenting time (not allowing kids to fly to see her, she can come here), that we will be in court…. Again!!! I am not using my attorney at this point. If she makes a motion to the court, I will counter with the PC and therapists supporting me to further limit her parenting time. She is digging a deep hole for herself. It will cost a lot of money, bye bye IRA!!!!!
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witsend says:
CAmom,
I read your story earlier but didn’t have time to respond. It sounds like you have been through alot. It also sounds like you did exactly what you needed to do in your situation.
I hope that you have read some of the articles. Usually it is easy to find something in them that you can relate with.
I hope that you stick around as I believe you have alot to offer to others who are in a similar situation.
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Isabell says:
Runningaway,
My mother had serious issues, I know she was bi-polar, though I don’t believe she was sociopathic or pathological. Perhaps mildly Narcissistic. She, too, would pit one sister against the other. There were three of us. She’d favor one and then talk badly against the others. Or, she pair up with two, and prey upon the insecurities of the one, through teasing and taunting.
My sister’s and I became suspicious and untrusting, and defensive with one another. When my mom passed, you would think it would draw us closer, as we were the only family we had. Instead we pulled apart, and did not interact for years. And, when we did, it always ended a dramatic explosion of suspected betrayal, defensiveness, accusation and hurt.
Finally, my younger sister and I found our way back into each other’s live’s; both willing to press through the veil of our insecurities. We discovered our perceptions of one another had been tainted from the earliest years of our bonding when our mother pitted us against each other. Our older sister’s heart has been forever hardened.
My kids (4) have always been close. So close, in fact, they often gang up on me, to tease me about being “out of touch” with “their” world, or when they find it humorous to mimic my less then attractive characteristics for the entertainment at my expense. As much as I really don’t like it when they do this, I can step-back and see that there is a powerful and significant bond between them. And, if I have to be the target for them to practice the benefits of their bond, then so bit it.
They confide in each other, and sometimes I do feel a pinch of saddness that I’m excluded from their inner circle. I’m sure this was the reason for my mother’s distructive methods as she was trying to stay in the inner circle of mine and my sister’s. I, on the other hand, realize that the existance of their inner circle, their exclusive sub-culture within our family system is a good sign. And, the truth is, I know that I shouldn’t be included. I’d have to be one of their siblings to qualify for inclusion, and I’m not, nor will I ever be.
As my children begin spending alternate Saturdays with their S/N/P father, he’s already started his campaign to break through their bond. The one that poses the greatest threat of exposing him, he targets. He’s already planted seeds implying to the targeted one, that the other two have more fun when she’s not with them. He’s begun the alienation process. And, the effects are showing. They are fighting more. It is normal for kids, especially teens, to fight but my kids rearly ever faught, until recently. The have been best friends, that genuinely like each other.
I have become more vocal about aknowledging the bond that they share with one another. I stress the importance, the benefits, and it’s value for them that should be protected against anyone (including myself) that threatens to destroy thier relationship to one another.
I’ve seen their father destroy the relationships of a large extended family, causing divisions that will never be able to mend. His children are NOT sacred ground. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that his singlness of purpose, at this particular moment in time, is to divide them.
At dinner, I talked to them about Bad people, who have evil intentions. I told them the percentages of Bad people living in the world, and the likelihood that they may encounter people with selfish intentions. I explained that it is important to recognize the traits; in order to avoid getting tangled up with one of these types as they will surely wreck havoc on their lives. At different stages of my character trait explination of “Bad” people. Each one of them, randomly labled a characteristic, “just like Dad.”
My son said tonight, “Dad has some pretty mad (strong) charm skills. He can make it hard, sometimes, to remember all the crap he’s pulled. Then I see how he is with (targeted child), I tell myself, “No man… don’t fall for it. He’s up to something. He’s always up to something. And, it’s never good.”
He and his older sister (both teens) have been especially hateful toward one another the past six weeks. Tonight, afer my son shared his perception about his “charming” father. He knocked on his sister’s door, and she barked at him, “What do YOU want?” He stuck his head in slowly, where she could only see his puppy eyes, and said, “I haven’t told you this in a while — but, (then he flashed a smile) I just want you to know….I love you.”
We will keep talking. And, I will keep praying that their sibling bond is impenetrable.
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ErinBrock says:
Isabelle:
AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
Sleep well tonight………
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OxDrover says:
Dear Isabell,
Sometimes (research has shown) that kids who grow up in a dysfunctional home tend to bond together just in order to survive. this is not always the case, either, as you and your sibs show.
My Uncle Monster’s kids are still at age 50+ VERY close to each other, but each has been so badly damaged emotionally that it ihas had a significant impact on their inner lives. They are all “successful” in life, but each carries a burden that I have no idea how heavy it is, I can just see some of the results.
I think your talking with your kids is an excellent way to teach them and let them come to their own conclusions about “dad” by giving examples about bad behavior and evil initentions, they can make their OWN connections and that is the BEST kind. Good for you!!!
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blueskies says:
Isabell, your situation is familiar:(
so I am going to have a waffle……..;)x
I think you are taking exactly the right kind of tack, but the pattern of targeting you in order to bond worries me.
Like Oxy said, talking openly with your children and allowing them to make their own connections is very important; maybe you could explore, in a non personal way, and a non emotional way, why they feel the need for this kind of unhealthy triad in order to bond.
Talking about it, as a behaviour, will make them more aware of when and why they are doing it and when they are being used in the same kind of pattern by someone else. Self knowledge =power:)
Apart from anything else its a bad ‘bully’ habit to get into, its not an acceptable way to behave or treat people or to build a bond… at someone else’s expense?
I agree, you are not their sibling or friend, or in their inner circle, you are their mother, but that doesn’t equate to being a target. This is a good thing for them to understand.
My parents (I use the term loosely) used my sister and I in the same way as you described your parents did and it caused a lot of damage(as you are no doubt aware of) we developed a similar way of dealing with relationships(not good, or satisfying, or worth much, to only be able to connect or bond like that) an extremely emotional and negative mistrust coupled with competitiveness and unrealistic expectations leading to lots of hurt. These things are going to take a lot of slow patient and ‘solid’ work to unravel.
Stressing the importance of their bond is so important, but understanding that the bond can exist without a ‘scape goat’ is going to be powerful for them… and stand them in good stead when dealing with the shenanigans of their father…
Peregrine:) I think your advice is rock solid and I particularly liked this: Quote:” Demonstrate to your children that you respond to this outrageous drama with love for them, not hate for her. ”
Running away- likewise:)Rock solid:)x
xxxxxxx
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skylar says:
blueskies, wonderful comments and very insightful thoughts about scapegoating.
They are kids and right now that is a stage for them that is probably appropriate, but it’s never to early to teach them that there is going to be a new and improved way to relate to the world when they get older. This guides them towards something to look forward to. Hopefully, it will prevent narcississm.
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banana says:
Sadie and AKA Bob,
It is bittersweet. I am happy to have found two people who know exactly what I am going through. It has only been 4 months of such behavior for me, and I pray it does not escalate to what you are experiencing.
I am sorry to hear of your situation, but I am happy to find someone who knows my pain.
I keep reading “NC” and “don’t respond”
Bob, do you fear as I do, that if you don’t respond to the baiting that you will look like you don’t have concern for your children?
that’s how my P baits me.
Unfortunately, although my attorney is getting the idea, she will often encourage me to respond. She’ll tell me what to write. It will still be followed with accusations of my irresponsibility and poor parenting.
Recently she wrote this letter to his attorney.
I AM NOT REACTING. but this is still REACTING and I fear it will continue to REWARD him, but if I do nothing I will go CRAZY.
My client has indicated to me that over the past several weeks, your client has repeatedly degraded and attacked her and her parenting skills on several occasions. Further, he has yelled at her regarding paying child support, paying daycare, and about the separation agreement. He has also verbally attacked her regarding getting HIPAA protected information from his work, which is a false allegation, and continues to berate my client regarding the daycare provider’s care. All of these actions by your client have been documented by recorded conversations and/or emails and texts from your client, most of which I have reviewed, which clearly show that my client is not provoking these actions by your client. Your client has also left a message on the daycare provider’s answering machine telling the daycare provider that “he cannot go see his son” which is completely false and is putting the daycare provider in the middle of the litigation between our clients.
My client will not tolerate this treatment. Should your client have anything to say to my client other than when and where to meet to exchange child, or regarding child’s health, then please advise him to contact you about it instead of my client. (Contact about child’s health should simply involve questions about child’s health and regarding doctor appointments, and not turn into false allegations that my client has not properly cared for their son). Should your client continue to harass my client, she will report the incidents to the police and/or seek an Order of Protection.
We are both hoping that perhaps once he realizes that every time I see him I am tape recording him, he will SHUT UP and leave me alone.
I continue to have faith in my attorney to do the best for me.
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skylar says:
banana,
I’m concerned about the costs you are incurring everytime your attorney must deal with the nut ball for you. That could be playing into his hands.
I’m sorry this is happening, but you don’t have to respond emotionally to the bait. Remember they are vampire emotions and that’s what he wants. He willl only stop when he sees that you, like him, HAVE NO EMOTIONS. You are a gray computer, with no keyboard, no lights, no mouse only a processor running silently in the background. There are no buttons to push and no lights will blink.
Practice a monotenous response.
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Isabell says:
blueskies,
Wonderfully insightful regarding scapegoating… I hadn’t thought of this, but I do believe you are correct.
Thank you!
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ErinBrock says:
Banana
” do you fear as I do, that if you don’t respond to the baiting that you will look like you don’t have concern for your children”
The fear of knowing we will be portrayed poorly is a valid fear……BUT….then we must look at the reality….WE CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. Except….continuing to be the good parent we have always been. We can’t change our parenting styles for the appearance of being a ‘better’ parent to the S or the social workers or the courts. It is a tactic they use to keep us on the DEFENSIVE!!!! We are already good parents (assumably), and our concern for our children will NOT be defined during this time.
This is another valid reason for NC…..when we are removed from the influence they have, we can see and think clearly…..we do not feel the need to respond to each accusationa as we have during the duration of the relationship with the S. We were primed to defend….
We do NOT need to.
remember his words….whether written or verbal, are just that WORDS!!! NOISE……
Anyone can say anything…..YOU CAN”T STOP THEM!!!!!
It’s like allowing a dirty dog loose in your home….you can’t prevent the hair from flying, you can’t prevent the dirt clods from falling off on your couch……
You can place the dog OUTSIDE….and only then can you prevent your house from getting dirty!!!!
“but if I do nothing I will go CRAZY.”
I suggest you redefine what doing nothing is. NC is NOT doing nothing……NC is making a stand……albeit a ‘silent’ stand.
We don’t always have to ‘yell and scream’ to make a sound…..ya know…..
It’s about trusting yourself, trusting the process and trying something new……
Think about it when you ask someone a question, or to do something…..how do YOU feel when they don’t respond???
It’s frustrating and you want to confront them, but don’t know how….and it tends to silence you after a while. THEY have the power…..
WE NEED TO THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX FOLKS>>……..
Take notice of each time you feel empowered by ‘shaking it up’….doing something out of your own normal realm of response…….AND LIKing what you get….the feeling, the empowerment, the better outcome!!!!
THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT!!!!!
These people only know our buttons because we have shown them…..over time….
NOW…..think of it as a room you are familiar with…..your bedroom…..you can get up in the dark and make your way to the bathroom or kitcehn or even down the stairs in complete darknesss, and trusting you will not hit your face on the door, or fall down the stairs…..ALL IN DARKNESS!!!!
(You are the room they feel confident making their way around, even in the dark)
NOW……what happens when you move all the furniture around and leave doors to closets open and items laying on the floor…….CAN THEY STILL GET TO THE BATHROOM WITHOUT TRIPPING AND BANGING INTO STUFF????
NO…..they reach for the lightswitch……they need to know where things are located in order to be successful at navigating their way, AND with confindence……
SOOOO…….NC IS MOVING ALL THE FURNITURE AROUND IN US…..they will try and reach for the lights……but we have moved that switch too!!!! THey will bring a flashlight……it is not enough light to see us with……
GET IT? Shake it up…….move your buttons around……and we can only do this if we do not provide them with a roadmap of our emotions.
The next gift that comes from ‘shaking it up’ is they don’t like it, they don’t know how to ‘get through’……then they provide us the documentation of behaviors and control we can use in court.
The mask slips, the frustration of lack of control sets in, the behaviors become more noticeable……THEY SHOW THE CONTROLLING BEHAVIORS in court, to friends…..etc….
It’s a natural evolution for them…..and we are more able to predict the next attack, move, accusation and be ready for it.
Legally.
It all boils down to going against our own grain.
Have faith……trust yourself!!!!!
You WILL be amazed at the outcome!
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skylar says:
Erin, GREAT analogy about moving the furniture and the light switch.
That is exactly what we all have to do. take the buttons off the panel, give no access to the emotions.
Take a page from their own book, show them any face but your real one. Withdraw emotion and they are lost at sea. Then YOU have the power.
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ErinBrock says:
I loved your blank computer analogy….
Same concept……and whatever it takes to connect with the point huh!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
NC NC NC!!!!!! You will nbot “GO crazy” and as long as you keep RE-acting to his ACTING you “ARE crazy” (said with love!) sugar as long as he can [PUSH A BUTTON AND YOU JUMP you are his PUPPET. he knows just which button to make you jump and keeps you OFF BALANCE. The ONLY way you can obtain and keep balance is NC.
NC except e mails to him of lwhen and where to pick up the child. If Possible, have the child delviered to him by someone else so that you do NOT have to see him or talk to him. HIRE someone if necessary instead of spending money on the lawyer. IF HE IS NOT GETTING REACTIONS FROM YOU FROM PICKING UP THE KID then he will LOSE INTEREST IN THE CHILD.
He is using the child as an AVENUE TO GET TO YOU! You are paying attention to him and what he says (WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS!)
Erin is RIGHT, NC is “not doing anything” it is taking a FIRM STAND that YOU WILL NOT BE MANIPULATED BY HIM.
Sure it is a quiet thing. But it is a BIG STAND and best of all THEY HATE IT! Cause they can’t manipulate you if they can’t talk to you.
IGNORE EVERYTHING HE ACCUSES YOU OF. IGNORE WHAT HE TELLS OTHERS (DOCUMENT IT IF YOU WANT TO , BUT NO RESPONSE to him)
He will start actin gup a bit more when you go NC because he always got you to react in the past, and so he will “up the ante” to get you back into line with his CONTROL and hun, this is what it is, YOU ARE ALLOWING HIM TO CONTROL YOU.
STOP IT NOW!!!! Don’t make me get the skillet out! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you! Love oxy
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geminigirl says:
Banana,
You know the saying,-”You can fool some of the people some of the time, and you can fool all of the people some of the time, but not ALL of the people, ALL of the time!.”Sooner or later, if you just act normal, love your kids, people will see what a great mum you are, the school will see it too. They are not stupid. By their fruit you will know them.. You are a good tree. and your good fruit is there in the world for all to see, and your exP s bad fruit is obvious to everyone but him. As you know, they arent as smart as they think they are, and their lies get found out very quickly! To be a smart lier, you needa very good memory.! Love, good wishes and {{HUGS!}} Gem.XX
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geminigirl says:
No wonder they can push our buttons, they installed these buttons in the first place!Love, Gem.
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ErinBrock says:
Gem…..
Sometimes they have them on remote control!!!
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