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Finding meaning in the betrayal by the sociopath

Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:10am • My Weblog

When we realize that we’ve been involved with a sociopath, and that person has callously betrayed us, we inevitably ask, “Why? Why did this happen to me?”

To help find the answer, one of the books that Lovefraud recommends is The Betrayal Bond—Breaking Free of Exploitive Relationships, by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D. The book explains the deep psychological wounds caused by trauma, and offers a way for us to identify and overcome abusive relationships that we may have experienced.

When I read the book, I was struck by what Carnes wrote on page 68:

My experience with survivors of trauma is that every journey of recovery depends on the survivor coming to a point where all that person has gone through means something.

I believe there is meaning in what we have experienced at the hands of sociopaths. Here it is: The object of the exercise is to force us to jettison mistaken beliefs about ourselves.

Promising to fill the void

When sociopaths come into our lives, they snag us by promising to fill some void. For most of us on Lovefraud, the void is our missing soul mate, but sociopaths can also promise career success, monetary rewards, spiritual enlightenment—any number of things. (Please note: This dynamic doesn’t quite apply when sociopaths are family members.)

Sociopaths are experts at identifying our vulnerabilities and exploiting them. So the question becomes, why do we have the vulnerabilities in the first place? Here’s where the mistaken beliefs come in.

We believe we cannot attract a fulfilling romance.

We believe people only want us when we do something for them.

We believe we cannot succeed through our own efforts.

We believe we aren’t good enough.

We believe we are unlovable.

We believe there’s something wrong with us.

We believe we cannot cope with life by ourselves.

We believe other people come before ourselves.

We believe someone will come and make all our troubles disappear.

These just a few of the erroneous beliefs that create voids within us. Where do they come from? Perhaps from abuse in our past, as outlined in The Betrayal Bond.Perhaps they come from simple misperceptions. In any event, the sociopath steps right in to fill them.

Feel free to add your own mistaken beliefs to the list.

Critical juncture

So the sociopaths make promises—and break every one of them. At some point we wake up, come out of the fog, and realize that our lives have crumbled into piles of debris. That’s when we ask why? Why did this happen to me?

This is a critical juncture. We can certainly blame the sociopath—they are evil, and they deserve to be blamed. We can say it was fate, or luck, which is sometimes true—there are sociopaths who randomly assault or kill people. But in most of our cases, we believed the sociopath, went along with the charade, for a period of time. Why did we do this?

If we can find the answer to this question, we can discover the meaning in the betrayal by the sociopath.

As much as I hate to admit it, I did benefit from the destruction wrought by the sociopath I married. I am not the same person that I was before him—I am wiser, healthier and happier.

Why? Because I found and released all those mistaken beliefs.

Yes, it was painful. Yes, it was traumatic. But by looking for the meaning and undertaking the healing journey, my life is now much richer than it ever was.

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written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •

388 Comments to “Finding meaning in the betrayal by the sociopath”

OxDrover says:

Dear Donna,

A wonderful topic and one I think we all must confront on our healing path.

Dr. Viktor Frankl’s book “Man’s Search for Meaning” which he wrote after the ultimate “betrayal” of all the psychopaths in his world, the Nazis, had taken away his entire environment and replaced it with slavery and pain, and yet, he found meaning from this…..I think his book (along with the Betrayal Bond) was a turning point for me in seeing that there CAN be, that there MUST be “meaning” to this experience(s) and that it is finding the meaning in this that we GROW and BLOOM.

Thank you for this wonderful article!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 1:58pm
Matt says:

Donna:

Good post.

I think many of us end up controlled by a sociopath because our own conditioning was at the hands of controlling parents. I think “Betrayal Bond” has to be read hand-in-hand with “If You Had Controlling Parents” by Dan Neuharth. While “Betrayal Bond” does a good job of exploring how the bonds are formed, I think a reader needs to go a step further and seek out how the control took place. Neuharth’s book does a wonderful job of exploring how that takes place.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:11pm
skylar says:

I believed that I needed to have excitement.
Excitement would replace the love I didn’t get and the thrills would cover my fear.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:16pm
littlewhitehorse says:

I believed that there was something wrong with me because p’s seemed to spot me and make my life hell. I also spotted them.

I was also lonely in my marriage and was looking to find meaning with my unknown s husband what our 22 years meant together.

Peace and love
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Great article, Donna.

I believed I just wasn’t good enough to be loved, if I didn’t acquiesce to other people’s demands.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 4:05pm
lostnsad says:

I think for me it is that I had to give to get love. In the beginning he gave back…but slowly it was just me giving and him taking. By the time that happened I was so twisted up inside that I didn’t know what was right anymore…

My parents didn’t have a “great” marriage by any means. But I don’t blame them. I have never been one to believe in blaming anyone for their ‘issues’ and while I blame my ex for his role in what happened… I’m still at the end of the day the most mad at — MYSELF!! Because I didn’t do what needed to be done and I choose to believe him when I should have known better…. If not at the beginning surely after 6 months… The signs were clear… I just choose to shut my eyes and live in my dreamworld…
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:00pm
shabbychic says:

The whole thing pretty much sums up what I believed about myself. I’ve let go of a few of them, I guess. Oh, I believed I was ugly.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:09pm
lostnsad says:

Shabbychic,

I’ve never thought I was that attractive either. People “say” I’m am, but I have never believed it. Plus, I’m overweight. I’m so not the size ZERO that is worshiped. I’ve come to like myself more than ever; still need to work on things but I accept I’ll never be a size zero; nor would I ever want to be… but I’d like to be more fit than I am now…
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:33pm
lostnsad says:

I never used to take photos of myself. I do now… All the time and it helps… To see yourself and know you aren’t ugly… Yes, we can all be unattractive after we cry, or haven’t gotten a lot of sleep… But I take pictures all the time… with and without makeup — it’s helped a lot about seeing myself differently.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:39pm
justabouthealed says:

Great post. There is no meaning until we FIND and create it ourselves.

You wrote: “I did benefit from the destruction wrought by the sociopath I married. I am not the same person that I was before him—I am wiser, healthier and happier.

Why? Because I found and released all those mistaken beliefs.”

I would say that the “why” means you did NOT benefit from the destruction, but rather what YOU did as a result. I think that is very clear to the reader, but something I have to underscore for myself. I did not benefit at ALL from the pain he caused me. All the benefit was because of what I did with that pain. The pain itself cause some irrevocable damage to my health especially. I’ve read that trauma leaves a mark at the cellular level. I wish there was criminal prosecution for causing such a mark. Maybe some day.

What is powerful about this post is getting each of us to focus on our mistaken beliefs about OURSELVES rather than our usual hyperfocus on what we mistakenly believed about about the P/S/N.

Agree, Betrayal Bond is a wonderful, must have book.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:51pm
sstiles54 says:

I know that how I was raised had a lot to do with what happened to me, I just need help putting the pieces together. so here goes my story, & anyone that can help me figure out how I was damaged, please help me.
From the time I was little, I remember not feeling like I was as good as everyone else. My dad was a typical blue collar worker, he always worked, he changed jobs when he wasn’t happy with the one he had, never seemed to have trouble finding work. He had a hell of a temper, he was the typical hot headed Irishman, reminded me a lot of Archie Bunker, was the physical discipliner in the family(chased me one time & tried to choke me ’cause I rolled my eyes at him), was the son of an alcoholic & abusive father. My mom was a secretary, the only one of five kids who went to school beyond high school, seldom lost her temper, always worked, I don’t know if she was happy being married to my dad, she died when I was 24. My dad could dissolve my mom or my younger brother to tears, just by his bellowing at them. it seemed my mom’s only defense was to just go silent, that drove my dad nuts. I remember putting myself in harms way & antagonizing my dad, just to keep his wrath on me, so he wouldn’t make my mom or brother cry. I never got into any trouble until I got older, like in high school. Then it seemed like both my parents began to think bad things about me, & accused me of acting like a street walker, etc. I guess at that point, I began to think that if they thought that badly about me, well, hey, I can be that bad & worse. I started drinking, smoking, doing drugs, everything they accused me of anyway. I still managed to get all A’s & B’s in school. As my brother got older(he was 5 yrs. younger than me), dad seemed to take less delight in tormenting him, & they actually got pretty close.Even though I felt like I could never do anything good enough to please my dad, we were closer than my mom & I were, & even though my dad & brother became close, I think my brother was actually closer to our mom. Fast forward to when I was 19. I managed to get involved with a guy, became sexually active, & did the unthinkable(back in the day), I got pregnant. If I wasn’t already a disappointment to my folks before, I sure as hell was then. I ended up marrying the loser at 19, had my daughter at 20, & was off & running in my 1st abusive marriage. He spent all our money on booze & dope, & was physically abusive to me. We were divorced by the time I was 21. I ended up moving back home with my folks, & they pretty much usurped my role as a parent. When I was 22, my mom was diagnosed w/ breast cancer, & under went a radical mastectomy. She had never been sick, other than a cold. I ended up being the one who took her to the city for her chemo & radiation, since dad was working. I remember trying to get her to eat a little bit of the lunch I made for her one day, & she got mad at me ’cause she felt so sick. She told me that day if she had to feel that bad to try & get better, she was done taking treatments. She seemed to get better for awhile, then 2 yrs. later, she started not feeling good. She went into the hospital for an exploratory surgery. The doctors opened her up, found out that her cancer had spread to her liver, & it couldn’t be fixed. She woke up in recovery long enough for the doctors to tell her that, & she went into a coma, & I never saw her awake again. I went to see her every day before work. The phone call came in the middle of the night about 10 days later. My dad woke me up, told me mom had just died, & to go back to sleep. Her dying seemed to dissolve the glue that held the whole family together. My brother started hating me for things I said while mom was dying, I tried my best to work full time at my job, take care of my 6 yr. old daughter, & try to keep the household running as well as mom had. She died in Jan. of that year, by April, my dad announced he was seeing a lady, & they would be married in June. I guess I didn’t do anything right. There was no way I could face my mom being replaced that soon, so I made the 2nd marriage mistake of my life, married a friend of my brother’s who I thought was a nice guy. We had 3 kids together over the course of the 20 yrs. we were married, I was diagnosed as suffering from depression, he was becoming more & more mentally & emotionally abusive to me & the kids, so I took the kids & left. It was a nasty drawn out divorce, & the kids suffered a great deal because of it. At that point in my life,the s appeared. I thought my life before was a living hell on earth. After 10 yrs., losing everything, here I am. My hells on earth just keep getting progressively worse.
I’m sorry this is so long. I just needed to tell someone.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:12pm
slimone says:

Donna and All,

Donna said: I believe there is meaning in what we have experienced at the hands of sociopaths. Here it is: The object of the exercise is to force us to jettison mistaken beliefs about ourselves.

This is exactly where I have *finally* got to. And not ‘just’ from my experience with the last p, but as a place in my own life, all experiences included. But FOR SURE this last one was The One to catapult me into examining wrongheaded beliefs I have about myself.

I may not be ready to cut them all lose (which is why I am chosing, for now, to remain out of the dating-game). But I am encouraged to find that my salvation isn’t entirely ‘tied up’ in understanding something outside myself (impossible anyway!). But that it lies in SELF discovery. This wisdom has evaded me for so long……

Thanks, Donna, for an excellent and timely article.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:26pm
OxDrover says:

LILY REPORT!!!!

I just spoke with Lily, Gemini and others who know our sweet Lily. she is moved to a “speciality” hospital, which I am thinking is a rehabilitation facility or a skilled nursing home.

She has been very very sick, and I also think she has been very confused. She seemed to have lost track of time and any details of her medical condition but she is her sweet self and still depends on God to bring her through this. she did say that her doctor told her today that he thought she “was a gonner”—since it has been some time since she has answered her phone, I think she must have been very very ill.

She did report that she is unable to sit up in a chair, which to ome means she is not doing too well physically at all as one of the FIRST things they try to do for you is to get you up OUT OF BED and mobilize you to prevent complications like blood clots, but she said she IS getting physical therapy on her legs and also on her upper body twice a day. As ill as she has been though, I am sure her recovery will be very slow.

She does seem VERY happy with the staff and services at the place she is now and that encourages me very much.

She did say that two of the three daughters are calling her now and her son will talk to her if she calls him….so I guess she is still hoping to have some relationship with them in spite of the past. At this time, however, she does not seem in any emotional distress over it, which is frankly all I care about for her right now, as she needs all her strength to recover.

She said to thank each of you for your prayers and thoughts and it has been very very important to her peace of mind.

I also send my thanks to each of you who has prayed for and sent positive energy to this sweet little lady in her hours of need. (((((Hugs))))) and God bless you all!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:30pm
slimone says:

I believed so many things: I believed I was insufferable. I believed I was only tolerable if I was ‘useful’. I believed I was only valuable if I gave everything and asked for nothing.

Ahhhh JAH, thank-you for that brilliant underscoring. I like what you say, that it is what we do with the pain that brings the meaning…
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:41pm
Donna Andersen says:

Just about healed,

Thank you for the clarification. Yes, you are right. I grew because of the work that I did as a result of my run-in with the sociopath. But I never would have done it without the instigation of his treachery.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 7:09pm
shabbychic says:

sstiles54… sounds like a very turbulent childhood, I am so sorry your mother passed when you were only 24. My sister and I have discussed our childhood and it sometimes it seems to us that they were just overwhelmed and we think our mother was depressed and they were just not able to give love and teach us life lessons because they didn’t know them themselves, they were not taught these lessons by their parents. Since you were not given the love and securitiy you needed by your father you felt neglected, not good enough, always trying to please men, get their attention. You did the best you could at the time because that is all you knew. Anyway, I’m not one to give great advice — I’m still trying to figure myself out, which I don’t seem to be very good at. Why did you write that things are getting progressively worse? I’m worried about you.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 7:49pm
shabbychic says:

Oxy, thank you for the update on Lily. I hope she keeps improving over time and will be able to sit up soon. I am very happy to hear she is talking with 2 of her daughters and her son. She is such a sweet soul, some of the things she wrote reminded me of my own mother and how my mother would say them the same way.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 7:52pm
OxDrover says:

My ONLY concern is that Lily not be in pain, and that she be at peace—if that means that she talks to the vultures, that is OK with me. I know she was grieving so much over not communicating with them, and accepting that they really don’t care fo rher and have NC’d her for over 7 years when she was begging them to “love” her. I know when you are physically destitute of health it is a difficult time to cope with the grief of emotional pain and loss as well as the physical.

Lily has had so much pain, ill health, stress and grief over her children, I hope if nothing else she has PEACE even if it is based on a false belief that her children “love” her—right now she needs ALL her strength to cope physcally and she has no energy to spare grieving right now. There are times in this life that we must focus on physical survival and that is her state right now. Keep on praying for her recovery! and her peace. (((hugs))))
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:07pm
skylar says:

Donna,
Other LF people described trauma and pain but you wrote the words “jettison”, “destruction” and “crumbled into piles of debris”. I’ve found that the words I choose are a result of the pictures/feelings my subconscience is perceiving.

Your words brought up the image of tearing down the old me so that a new me could be built. But the new me will be built with a stronger, more modern design, P-proofed and it’s going to be beautiful too. The list of vulnerabilities are like a list of the design mistakes or fractures built into the old me. The new me is going to be built without those errors.

I don’t want to build on top of that faulty construction, because it will be a weak me. I need all new construction with a design built on the wisdom that the old construction gave me.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:09pm
swallow says:

I can see that I was desperate for someone to think I was a special person. My husband is a kind and honest man but he does not show emotion or affection a great deal. I think it was the the need for attention that I craved. Being brought up by my widowed mother, who had a personality disorder herself, meant that I always took the blame and I became someone who always tried to please others.
Without the P experience, I may never have realised these things about myself and although painful and traumatic, I have a much greater understanding of myself and that is a positive thing.
Swallow
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:20pm
shabbychic says:

skylar, even though you comment was to Donna, I would like to say that I love your vision… “so that a new me could be built”, what a great idea! P-proofed… priceless!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:27pm
ErinBrock says:

OXY:
I agree…..we gotta do what we gotta do to just ‘get by’…….she needs anything and everything she can get to divert her attention to her healing…..she is in a bad place, where the unnecessary ‘drama’ could be the last dagger!
I say…..put that dagger into the voodoo doll and forget about it, even if it is a false reality…doesn’t matter, she needs it to get through!
She is in fight or flight mode, and at this point the flight could be final and she needs the fight for herself ONLY!
Give her my love……and THANK YOU OXY for being such a loving and wonderful friend to our Lily!
XXOO
EB
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:29pm
skylar says:

sstiles,
you need to cry, first. this will help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6yilkU1LI
Read the lyrics here:
http://www.lyrics007.com/Tracy.....yrics.html
I know this because you have been trying to be tough your whole life. You carried all the weight on your shoulders and you were going to make it no matter what. But everytime you put your burden down for a moment, you were sabotaged. Yes, your dad was the original instigator. He is a P and he slimed you with hurt. He slimed your whole family. He did it because someone slimed him first.

You have to jettison what your dad did to you first. Then, one by one, you have to jettison each of the husbands who hurt you. They may not be around but you are carrying them still. Just like Donna said, we are “crumbling into piles of debris”. Get rid of the debris and start with a clean slate. Everything they made you feel was a lie. You can’t trust any of it. You can’t know what was real and what was a con.

LF has some of the blue print for your new building. You will find the rest as you go over the memories of where you were fractured.

I know it sounds contrary to say that you need to jettison the xP’s but also keep the memories. I mean to say that you need to jettison the slimey emotions they left you. But still see the history through curious eyes. Eyes that want to learn about you and about them and about humanity.

Kathleen and Stargazer gave me so much help the other day because I couldn’t sit by myself and think about how I was slimed by my P-parents. They got me to talk about it and reflect on it.

Maybe you might read this, if you haven’t already.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ment-52433
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:34pm
Stargazer says:

Hi everyone,
I have been mostly lurking this evening and not feeling like posting much because I feel a little anxious and depressed for various reasons. I’m just trying to sleep better and get some nutrients in my body. I’m really in need of a massage and trying to figure out a way to afford it. This is one of my issues, feeling like I have to give to others but there is no one to take care of my needs.

ssstiles,
Thank you for telling your story. I have no great insights for you this evening, but I feel like I know you better. You’ve had a hard life, and it’s probably hard to trust that things can really get better. I grew up in a cloud of darkness so to speak, and I can relate to the unworthiness you felt as a child. I am really struggling to let myself be happy and trust that things will improve.

Oxy, thanks for the update about Lily. I am so glad she is having a temporary reprieve from the painful associations with her family. I’m sure the peace is good for her. I hope she pulls through this.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:07pm
sstiles54 says:

Shabbychic & Slylar,
I am just so tired of working all the time, & having nothing to show for it. I work 2 jobs, 1 full time, the other part time doing odd jobs like landscaping or cleaning rentals for my landlord to get a break on my rent. I also clean his & his wife’s house every 2 weeks, it’s big, so it takes me 6-8 hrs. to do it like she likes. Most nights, I’m lucky to stay awake past 9 or 10, then back up at 6 am to do it again. I’m just finding it more difficult everyday to feel hope or joy in anything. I feel like I’ve spent all my life trying to be good enough, & failing miserably at that. My kids are all grown, & out on their own, so they don’t much need me for anything. I have always hated asking anyone to help me with anything. That would be a sign of weakness. I was never allowed to say the words “I can’t” when I was growing up. You couldn’t show fear either. I even feel bad just saying those things about my dad, he thought he was doing the right thing. I’ve never told him how I feel. I think I felt sorry for mom for being married to him, & I was mad at her for dying & leaving me to take care of him. It’s weird, though, he is known by a lot of people in the small town we live in, he never met anyone he couldn’t strike up a conversation with, most people know me as his daughter, instead of just me. He is well liked, I am invisible. I hoped my life would mean something, that I would be good at something. How do I ever find out out who I am or what I want? I’ve been the rock for everyone for so long, & now that I need a rock,there’s none.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:31pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Star,

If you can’t afford a massage, take you a nice soaking hot bath and light the candles in the bathroom, and if you like fragrance, pour some in the bath (I love the smell but the oils irritate my sinuses so cant use them) but I had a great soak tonight, all hte way up to my neck, then meditated a bit to relax while I was in the tub and it was not quite as effective as a massage might have been, but it sure beat not doing it, I came out feeling like a new human being.

Even if we can’t have “perfection’ or the “preferred” thing, we CAN do some nice things for ourselves to make us feel better and cheer us up—when your muscles are tight you know how rotten that makes you feel, I bet! I also back up to a door frame and “massage” myself some too.

((((hugs))) do something nice for Star!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:44pm
henry says:

Donna- Everything on your mistaken belief list described me. I can remember saying ” I only seem to attract loser’s”, the truth was I was only attracted to loser’s. I never felt good enuff or deserving enuff to have a winner, why would a winner want me? I have failed at so much, one mistake after another. But as you say, it happened for a reason. I am not saying the S was not to blame for what he did. He did appear as my long lost soulmate, the one I had always dreamed of. But when the mirror cracked I felt like a fool. I think this is a wonderful article – thanks again for saving my life Donna Anderson.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:47pm
henry says:

sstiles – The movie director Oliver Stone once said he could take anybody off the street and make a movie about their life. Everyone has a story, he said. sstiles. my heart breaks for you, I wish there was someone to bring some joy into your life, someone to hold your hand and help you and be there for you. I have that empty nest thing happening too me. That is one of the reasons the xS fell in my lap. I am nobody if I am not taking care of somebody. Now sstiles I am going to take care of me, I am going to be my rock. Thanks for sharing your life here at LF.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:55pm
Stargazer says:

Oxy, I take baths every day. Maybe I need some epsom salts though.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:06pm
skylar says:

Star, can you trade massages with another practitioner?
Do you want to talk about what’s bothering you? My finances are my biggest worry. Seriously, I can’t seem to get a handle on it. I’m so used to living in fantasy land that whenever I even think about money, I think of the P.

Henry, I’m with you on that. I need to take care of others, but I think it’s so I don’t have to focus on my problems.

SStiles,
your dad is an N and the root of your problems. My P-parents are so well loved by everyone they know. When I meet their acquaintances (notice that they don’t actually have any FRIENDS), they GUSH about how wonderful my parents are. Everyone loves them. They have no idea that we’re the Adams family. They have perfected their veneer. The only way to judge some P’s is to look at their damaged children. Every single one of us is messed up ROYALLY.

Please consider your ability to work 2 jobs as a gift, not a curse. I don’t have the good health you do, so I envy you.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:12pm
Stargazer says:

Sky, I’m backed up on trades, and I’m too tired to do any more until I get some bodywork myself. I’ve been eating brownies, which is aggravating my sinus infection that never went away from August. The antibiotics didn’t work but probably also took their toll on my body. Physically, I’m just feeling “not right.” A good back massage and a chiropractic adjustment would do me a world of good right now. But I’m also triggered into resentment about not being able to get my needs met. Thanks for your offer to talk about the other stuff. I would take you up on it if I wasn’t so tired and fading right now. Maybe tomorrow night. Lots of stuff on my mind. I’ve been flying high on getting my mortgage stuff worked out. Seems like I can never get too happy; I always crash afterward. I’m just trying to watch my mind and my thoughts to see how I create all of this internal drama.

I am going to squeeze some grapefruit juice, cuddle with my snakes, and go to bed.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:24pm
shabbychic says:

sstiles, I am going through a lot of the issues you have. Please do not feel invisible!! I would love to have the small town experience, I live in a big city, I never see anybody I know. I am looking for a new job, and I feel like a dinosaur. My daughter lives 3000 miles away. I started taking Lexapro again, didn’t want to, but I feel no desire to do anything. How is that class “Battlefield of the Mind” going? I really like Joyce Meyer, she is smart and funny! I wish we could all live in a big house together… and talk and laugh, and argue about the remote control.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:33pm
Stargazer says:

SC.
If we all lived in a big house, you guys would get to deal with my 5 and 6 foot snakes and the needy Siamese cat that doesn’t shut up till he’s sleeping in someone’s shirt. XD
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:57pm
skylar says:

Star, I’m very curious how do your cat and snakes get along?
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:02pm
witsend says:

sstiles54,
I don’t know your full story and how long you have been on your healing journey from your X s. But if you have been at this for awile and “peeling” back the layers of your relationship with him and trying to figure out your role in all of this painful history…..
Invariably it almost always leads to coming face to face with your childhood pain.
No matter how painful your experiences have been so far, generally for most of us facing those childhood demons can be the most painful of all. These are the “burdens” that we have carried with us into adulthood and have been with us the longest.
As painful a process this might be it is one that is worth the effort to get through as it is really what can redefine the rest of our lives.
Sometimes what you can do to help you say what you would like to your father (without actually saying it face to face) is to write him a letter. Even if you never intend to send it. Just write it to get out your feelings. I had a therapist who suggested this to me many years ago. I found it to be helpful because I no longer had to bury those feelings once I got them out on paper.

Dealing with all of this is very painful. You must be kind to yourself if you are going to go through this. Even if working 2 jobs takes up much of your time you need to take some “down time” for yourself and do something you enjoy. Even if you have to make yourself do this in the begining.
It is the begining of learning to love ourselves and take care of US.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:26pm
shabbychic says:

Star, as long as it’s not the snakes trying to snuggle in my shirt, I’m ok!!!!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:37pm
skylar says:

SC, that’s how I feel too. As much healing as we’ve accomplished on a blog, can you imagine what we could do together in person? We all have the problem of needing to help others and putting others before ourselves. It would be heaven on earth. Each of us would be bending over backwards to to more and more for each other. Eventually our self-esteems would be saturated with love and compassion. I have a 2 acre property on an island,near a beach and statepark. Sometimes I fantasize about how nice it would be to have a retreat for LFers there.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:46pm
ann1961 says:

I feel ALL of those things that Donna said. Mostly I need to feel USEFUL. I cannot just ‘be”, I have to be doing something for someone or making lots of money. My ex told me I am ‘unlovable’, so I have believed that too. He said it so many times and so vehemently that I believe it, still. Also my brothers said that to me. When that many ppl tell you something, it is hard to not believe it.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:49pm
skylar says:

ann, my exP told me that no one would ever want me. HA.
getting people to want me is no problem – everyone wants sex. he should have said, “no one will ever love you”. I might have believed that. But he screwed up and lost his opportunity to slime me. LOL.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:57pm
shabbychic says:

skylar, that sounds wonderful and your property sounds sooooo beautiful!!

The S once said to me (when I was wearing jeans and was standing in front of him) “You used to have a nice ass, what happened?” I swear this is true, it’s so stupid… so transparent, I’m laughing!! What a jerk!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:18am
geminigirl says:

I probably shoudnt be saying this, and I know its not the recognised way to think, re recovering from a serious illness, but, I have to be honest and say, that in a way I hope that God takes Lily quietly and peacefully in her sleep. Even if she recovers from the huge trauma of such major surgery, she still has to deal with the fact that her P children and P sisters and P brother dont really give a rats behind about her. I feel this is an emotional wound which will go on bleeding without end, and I think God knows shes suffered enough in this lifetime. I really hope that He calls her home. I dont feel she has the psychic stamina for any more torment from her family.There Ive said it.She is desperately lonely, not well off financially,weak from the surgery, I feel her torment will never end till Jesus takes her to Heaven.. Sorry, but its what I think. Love, Gem.XX
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 1:42am
Betty says:

sstiles54,

I’m amazed at everything you’ve done in your life! My family often treats me like I’ve accomplished nothing — but I wrote down all things I have done, and it was an eye opener.

I used to believe the entire list of things Donna wrote in this article was true about me — but I no longer do. I heard that it’s beneficial to visualize a “split screen” when one has these painful feelings as an adult: on one side of the screen you see your present situation and feeling, and on the other side of the screen you see how you were treated as child that brought up this feeling. It took a while but by following the feeling, I was able to remember the origins of most of my negative feelings about myself.

I discovered I was TAUGHT to think badly of myself (and most likely, my parents were taught similarly) and when I made my inventory of what I’d accomplished, I discovered that I’m a human being who like most people has had failures and successes. Not so bad really. I realized that much of my sorrow came from the way I was still treating myself — just as my alcoholic parents had — and that I can change that. I could change the way I spoke to myself in internal conversation.

When I began speaking to myself like I would my dearest friend, I began to value and respect myself. That was an awesome discovery — that I was growing self-respect from the inside out! I’d peal another layer of the onion, remember more trauma, and support myself through it. It takes time, tons of reading (I love this site! So many people here have written things that saved my bacon! I really like a site called http://www.bravenewkitty.com because though she speaks a lot about substance abuse recovery, the focus is really spiritual and emotional recovery. She is a gifted writer and her attitude is positive. As always, take what you need and leave the rest).

I have a long way to go, but I have discovered that healing is possible, has massive rewards along the way — and you get to meet fantastic people who have come through really tough times and grown stronger, wiser and more compassionate. Lots of them on this site!

You have done so much for so many people, so now, you take some time to take care of yourself and find your answers. This can be challenging if you’ve believed your worth came from what you did for others — but if you can do for others, you can learn to apply that knowledge and ability to making life better for you. I find this challenging, but it is very possible to learn to do it.

Try to take some time every day and read at least one thing that uplifts you! If you find yourself at the bottom of your list, do some rearranging — understand that this is just an old habit, something you were taught and required to survive as a kid, but no longer need. If you can’t think of positive things to do for yourself, think of what you’d do for one of your kids or a dear friend — then do it for you.

What I hold onto when I’m stuck is this: “Do the next right thing.” It’s hard to go wrong when you’re thinking this way, and it helps me to keep from falling back into old habits of treating myself like I don’t matter, and only other people can be on my list. A much healthier equation is “Others and Us” – it offers better balance. Try not to isolate – it seems we’re often alone just when we most need some companionship. For instance, I recently started going to Al-Anon since both of my parents were alcoholics. I’m going for me, to help heal my life so that I can make better choices in the future. It helps to be in a place where people mostly talk honestly about their lives, then it’s easier to see yourself as a human being among human beings. Even when I’m bone tired, a meeting can really help. I’m not pushing that organization, but I am saying that connection in a non-threatening environment with others can help with healing.

There’s lots of solidly good advice to be found on this site. Writing here helps me more than I can say, and I’ve been amazed at how supportive, kind and open people are here.

I very much hope you find your answers soon. Be patient and tender with yourself – it really does help.

Take care!
Betty
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:39am
ErinBrock says:

Gem:
I had a similar conversaton with my Auntie Yesterday….about life/death/living.
My uncle is in poor health, but still able to travel around. He went to europe for 2 weeks last month with wife/SIL/BIL.
He broke his hip, has parkinsons etc….the flight home was horrid…..for my aunt…..he was yelling about terrorists being on the plane etc…..you can imagine the horror. He halucinates. Thank God they didn’t land the plane and restrain him…..EESSHH.
She is feeling trapped for him…..he was always a person who lived life, now he is sitting in a chair, cant’ see a tv, can’t hear a radio, can’t walk to the terrace to see the world go by…..just sits and waits.
I blurted out…..that I have given this alot of thought and if I had another stroke that took me ‘down’…..at my age, I would NEVER want the kids to change diapers, turn me every two hours, and have to care for me for the rest of my life…..NO WAY IN HELL!
Walking my journey with all the serious medical crap i have dealt with, if things looked bleak for me…..if the cancer came back……stroked out or whatever…….DO ME IN!!! If I can’t live a life that can offer some pleasure of living…..I sure dont want to affect the kids living either.
It’s a decision I believe we all should have a right to make…..
I understand your feelings of not wanting Lily to suffer, and I know that if it’s her ‘time….then it will be her time.
There is a reason she fights on……
I know at 39…..I could have given it all up…..easily…..but look at me now…..
Kicking ass and taking names! It wasn’t my time.
She’s had a nasty hand dealt…..and i’m sure we will all learn from lily’s journey.
We all want peace and healing for Lily…..whatever form that is supposed to come in.
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:46am
ThePeregrine says:

lostnsad said:
“I never used to take photos of myself. I do now… All the time and it helps… To see yourself and know you aren’t ugly… Yes, we can all be unattractive after we cry, or haven’t gotten a lot of sleep… But I take pictures all the time… with and without makeup — it’s helped a lot about seeing myself differently.”

I think that’s a great idea! I’ve been a photographer since I was about 14, and I am especially good at portraiture. There is so much you can learn about yourself by really looking carefully, seeing how your image changes in time and in relation to various events in your life. We are not static beings, and we are not only capable of change but we are also incapable of NOT changing. We can be conscious of this or not, and using photographs in this way is a healthy step toward full awareness of who we are in relation to the world.

It’s also important to see ourselves through the eyes of others who care about us. Maintaining just a few strong and healthy life-affirming relationships is very important.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 6:43am
elegy says:

“We believe other people come before ourselves.”

I don’t think this is necessarily an erroneous belief. Being a Christian, this is, to me, a desirable trait. The problem is that it needs wisdom to temper it, and many of us (myself included) get involved with the sociopath before we’ve had a chance to gain that wisdom.

It’s an unfortunate side-effect of being a selfless person that selflessness attracts selfishness.

One part of the healing process I’m going to have to go through is learning how to be selfless without being taken advantage of. It’s difficult to learn to trust again. It means I will most likely be alone for a long, long time (if not forever, which I suppose isn’t such a bad thing when you’ve got a small child and can’t risk bringing a stranger into her life), because no one wants to hear that you’re going to make them wait a year or two before you’ll trust them even a little.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 8:45am
luv716 says:

My eyes was wide shut when it came to the S, I wanted a man to come in a take some of the pressure off of me, to step up an be the man in my life. Ive been a single parent since 1994 its been so hard doing it all alone. I had a monkey on back so strong that it was breaking me down, in the beginning he love me so right I felt the monkey let loose. I just need someone to love me again and be there for me. I gave him control and he used the situation to his favor. I’m mad at myself for believeing it was real, I mad at myself for trust and loving a liar. He let the monkey out the cage and he chocking the hell out of me right now! but this time I have a broken heart!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:11am
Donna Andersen says:

SStiles54:

I am so sorry for what you endured in your childhood. With an abusive father and a mother who couldn’t protect you, you didn’t have a chance as a young person, and it is completely understandable that your life took the direction that it did.

Now is the time to put the burdens down.

You carried the burden of trying to protect your mother and appease your father. Then, when you rebelled, you ended up with a child who needed to be protected, then multiple children who needed to be protected.

They are all adults now. It is time to focus on yourself.

Do not carry your past on your shoulders. Let it go.

About the two jobs – can you survive on one? Can you downscale so that you don’t need the extra income? Everybody’s doing it these days.

Still, the main burden is the mistaken beliefs. Can you identify them? When you do, let them go.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:13am
BlackDeer says:

Funny, I’ve always hated having my picture taken but as I started to contemplate leaving the N I started doing self portraits. I think it helped me to finally see myself, literally and figuratively, as a separate person.

I learned that I chose emotionally distant men so I wouldn’t need to reveal myself fully. Also difficult men so I could be so busy with all their needs, problems, etc that I could ignore my own issues. I spent years of therapy hammering away at all his stuff–everything would be fine if he would just straighten up and fly right. Now I see it was just so I wouldn’t have to face myself. Thank gawd for the therapist I have now, she’s been able to really help me break through that.

I’m terribly scared of intimacy because some deep part of me doesn’t feel I’ll be loved if the whole truth be known. I busy myself being competent, showing what I can do, what a great partner I can be, at the expense of not looking at what kind of partner I’m facing. I can see that I still do the former but at least now I’m also heavily evaluating the other side of it too.

One of my big goals is that when someone I trust asks me how I feel I’m able to answer straight from the heart, without all the fear and hesitation I have now about being that truthful. That will be a big step towards intimacy for me.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:23am
Kathleen Hawk says:

sstiles54. your family dynamic was very much like mine. Big charming, explosive Irish father, better educated but more reticent mother. I too was the oldest, and from a young age took it upon myself to protect my mother and my silblings.

Here’s the thing. You and I grew up with two problems. One was a tolerance for fear and brutality (because we had to become used to it). The other was an inflated sense of our own responsibility and power to change things for other people. We literally became the sacrificial lambs of the family. And in going out into the world, our ideas of our own limits were completely warped. We thought we could live through too much. We didn’t recognize impossible situations and dangerous people. In our understanding of survival skills, we had no training to recognize that respectful relationships, self-love, peace of mind, decent pay for work, and other things that were simply out of the question in our family homes were actually necessary. Not luxuries but necessary.

And now you feel like you’re burning out. Welcome to the world of the sacrificial lambs. If we don’t get completely destroyed by users who recognize that we don’t have healthy boundaries, we burn out. Because of the way we were trained as children, we basically structure our lives as self-abusers. We don’t ask for anything. We don’t expect anything. We give too much. We don’t feel like we deserve more.

Donna wrote this post about extracting meaning from abusive relationships. You’re still working on this. And right now, you’re at the confused, self-hating phase. Where you can’t understand why these things happen to you, but you’re still trying to take responsibility for everything, which means that you are the problem.

On a certain level, you are the problem, but it’s not what you think. It’s not that you’re too stupid to live, which is what I used to say about myself. It’s that you were trained in childhood to survive in an environment of fear and brutality.

It took me a long time to get mad at my father. I didn’t want to be an angry person, and I didn’t want to get lost in blaming. So I’m not suggesting that you need to do that right now. But what you do need to do is take your feelings seriously. Don’t wish you didn’t feel like this. Try to understand why you do. This isn’t the first time in your life you’ve felt tired and hopeless. Go back in your memory and start listing those moments. Go back as far as you can to the first time you ever felt that way, and look at what those moments have in common, what was going on.

You are a good, strong human being. The fact that you survived the difficult life you’ve had speaks volumes about the fundamental strength and hope that exists inside you. I know at this point that you probably feel like a pack mule, and I know what that feels like. I’ve been there. But you are more than that. Inside of you is the bright, happy, confident person you once were, the person who believed in her own dreams, and trusted that she could achieve them on her own efforts and the help of people who cared about her.

That is the truth about you. The rest of this is the burden you’ve been carrying since you first abandoned your natural state as a child and began taking care of your family.

You’ve gotten some advice here to make time for yourself. I know that’s hard when you’re tired and you just want to rest or distract yourself when you’re not slogging through the daily responsibilities. So I’m going to make a suggestion that’s almost the same, but a little different. Make time to get to know yourself. Write here or write in a journal. If you draw, make pictures of yourself in all the environments you can remember. Give yourself the gift of time to begin to take care of yourself in the way that other people haven’t. Search inside of you for what you wished other people had seen and understood. Speak up for yourself, if it’s only to yourself.

Sacrificing yourself for the good of other people may have made sense at one time. But when you get the the point where you’re sacrificing yourself for your own good, you’ve crossed the line into self-abuse. You need someone to be kind to you, to appreciate you and to tell you what a good job you’ve done. Because you really have. So start taking care of yourself in this way. And later it will make it easier for you to ask for help from other people, and to place a higher value on your time and work.

If there is a single thing that changes our relationships with other people, as well as our prospects in the world, it is coming to value ourselves and believe we should be appreciated and supported. I know it’s not an overnight thing to develop this capacity, if we were trained to be sacrificial lambs. But if you can look at this as a goal, a belief that you want to develop in yourself, you will begin to move toward it. You can change, and your life will change as you do.

Love –

Kathy
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:37am
ann1961 says:

sstiles
I like this, it sums up exactly how I feel about my own life. “I’ve been the rock for everyone for so long, & now that I need a rock,there’s none.”
We are there for everyone, giving and giving and they are taking and taking. All of a sudden WE are in a position where WE need someone to help us, and everyone scatters like cockroaches when you turn the light on. This is depressing as hell for me right now. Took care of both of my parents when they were sick and died, my brothers were no where to be found, and now the brothers are ‘mad’ at me and have disowned me, because I did not do it all quite right. They actually wanted my mother in a nursing home and mom and I had talked and she dreaded being put in a nursing home, so I took care of her in my home. THAT made my brothers mad. They wanted her in a home. THis makes no sense to me, I would think it would be the other way around. After she died, I had a much needed back surgery, a big surgery. They completely ignored me, did not even acknowledge the fact that I had surgery. These are the same brothers who said my husband was a “good man” and that he did NOT ‘beat me up’ if I did not end up in the hospital. I took it all personally and felt like everything was my fault. I am just NOW beginning to see (after reading this site) that my brothers are assholes.
You are in a difficult place in life, I feel for you. I agree with Donna, is there SOME way you could quit one of your jobs? Doing that stuff for your landlord, you probably feel that will be hard to get out of. But you need to look out for YOU, as I have learned, NO ONE ELSE WILL. You need some well deserved time off to just rest, read, piddle. Don’t worry about what the landlords will think, worry about what YOU think!! That is taking care of yourself!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:44am
Lillian says:

We believe we can attract a fulfilling romance.

We believe people want us a we are.

We believe we can succeed through our own efforts.

We believe we are good enough.

We believe we are lovable.

We believe there’s nothing wrong with us.

We believe we can cope with life by ourselves.

We believe we come before other people.

We believe working on ourselves make all our troubles disappear.

So, guys and gals, I turned this around from the blog. It’s a good thing in the positive. But then I wonder is the opposite of P lover (us) (for lack of a better term) a P ? Or are there other creeds out there for people like us. I need ammunition to survivie the upcoming mediation session on November 11th. Ammunition that I can repeat to calm myself. I get queasy just thinking about seeing him for the first tme in two years. My good friend of 20 years (who the jury is out on whether he has p traits as I am being very careful) told me that I should go in there wanting what is mine. No more, no less. That seemed like such a good solid statement and I plan on using it. Any other thoughts, love, prayers are welcome. Best, Lillian
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 10:52am
skylar says:

Lillian,
you are confusing the self-affirming statements with similar ones that the P’s would use. I will write the P-affirmations here so you can see the difference:

We believe we can attract a romantic partner to fullfil our needs.

We believe people want us as we present ourselves to be thru trickery and conniving.

We believe we can succeed without much effort because of our superiority.

We believe we are better than anyone.

We believe we are not lovable but demand unconditional adoration.

We believe there’s nothing wrong with us – we are perfect.

We believe we can cope with life by ourselves but shouldn’t have to, someone should provide for all of our needs.

We believe we come before other people and besides we hate other people so they should suffer. We will make them suffer by feeling envious of us.

We believe working on a con make all our troubles disappear.

No, this isn’t meant to be funny, that is exactly how they think.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:16am
banana says:

Warning! Religious in Nature
I don’t necessarily believe everything happens for a reason, but I do believe that God works for the good.
I believe God has been able, and is able to use my run-in with a sociopath for good.
It has indeed caused me to look deep within myself and search for the “why”.

I would like to share with those of you that are interested in healing that I joined a grief-work course under the name of Christ Life Solutions.
The course is called the The Ultimate Journey.

The goal is for you to come to terms with the lies you were specifically or implicitly told during your formative years and help you to see the truth.

It is a wonderful and truly life-changing (improving) experience.
I do believe that although there has been a similar program running for years, that it may be difficult to find this course in your area.
The site is
http://www.christlifesolution......e_id=22146
if you’re intersted.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:38am
Skippy says:

OxDrover, thank you for the update on Lily. I hope that whatever is best for her is what happens. Sigh. Sweet lady.

Donna: Thank you for the very helpful post.

Lillian: I like your list a lot.

This is the belief I grew up with: Everything bad that happens is my fault; it’s my responsibility to fix it; but nothing I ever do will ever be enough.

I think I wanted other people to “prove” to me that I was lovable and worthy, since I didn’t believe that I was. I would always think I could love myself if only I were more successful or more enlightened or a better person. It was other people’s “job” to love me as I was. And instead, I attracted predators who perceived this false need as a weakness. I do think the most important thing I can do to protect myself at this point is to find a way to love myself exactly the way I am.

Sstiles: My heart sure goes out to you. My position in my family was very similar. Sending healing wishes to you.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:47am
sistersister says:

My life is better than it ever was after the betrayal by a sociopath backed by his church. It led me to everything I most value today.

He promised family values yet creativity, and spiritual depth. He was so beautiful. And so fake.

He was devastated. He even cried over the phone, as I did, when I said I couldn’t go back. He was honestly blind to all this. A sociopath taken over by even bigger sociopaths — his church.

But I saw clearly, and knew what I had to do. For this I am so grateful. It’s like that song from “The Sound of Music”: “Somewhere in my youth or childhood, I must have done something right.” I remember, when I’m faced with a little kid: my grandmother, herself an orphan in the Old Country, taking the time to say The Lord’s Prayer with me at bedtime, as her mother and grandmother did with her before her world turned cold; the other one making me feel like the most special little person in the world by taking me shopping downtown when she really didn’t have much money; my father explaining the world and taking me out to used car lots with him as he would a son, and telling me I could be anything I wanted to be when I grew up. They didn’t have much, but what they had, they gave. It starts there.

My grandmother’s prayer came to me through her mother and grandmother, who gave everything they could from that little village in Bulgaria. Special delivery to little Bethy! Every time you give, you start ripples in a pool.

And then I see in Chrissy the awful cost of that opportunity missed. A little kid betrayed, now becoming a confused adult.

Some of us are just blessed. Jesus said, “To those who have, more will be given.” God bless the child that’s got his own.

The hidden treasure in this journey is gratitude. So much good stuff bestowed on me, I have to weep.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:04pm
amber says:

At this part in my healing I have been asking myself this same question over and over and over again… Why did this happen to me? He took away everything from me. My dignity, my love, sex, self-esteem, my will to think freely…He somehow isolated me from everything that was positive in my life and when all of those positive things were gone, I felt like HE was the only thing I had left. And that was falling apart to. To think of losing him after I had already lost everything else would have made my world come to a crashing end. I would be alone. Nothing.

I was wrong. He wasn’t the only thing I had left. I had ME, but for some reason, for those 4 years, I chose to ignore me. I’m now am realizing that yes, this could happen to anyone, but I believe this happend to me to test my will, strength and character. I believe this happened to me to show me just how wonderful and beautiful of a person I really am, and that I derserve nothing less. It taught me patience, strength, and most importantly…to always listen to you gut or that little voice inside your head that tells you something is wrong. That’s the difference between the S and us. We have that little voice.

Thank god that little voice didn’t give up on me because I sure did. But after so much betrayal and violation, I reached my breaking point and the thought of being alone or just with ME seemed like an easier route than the road I was already heading down. Coming to that realization that I would have NOTHING was the scariest thing I have ever had to face. But I knew I couldn’t let it own me. I knew there was an amazing person hiding under this fragile shell. She was there years ago. It was just a matter of finding her again.

Right now I’m getting to know myself all over again, and you know what?? I like me. I didn’t like the me that I had become with him. He was toxic to my life…slowly poisoning me to death. The whole time I was waiting for him to ‘wake up” but the ironic thing is that I really needed to listen to my own advice. I was the one that needed to do the “waking up.” I am so thankful that I got out before his pioson could do any more damage.

As I always told him, “life is about the choices you make, you have the free will to make those choices, and every choice you make has a consequence either, good or bad, and those decisions not only effect you, but those around you as well.” Sometimes I couldn’t believe I had to tell a 40 year old man these things. I always thought where is his conscious? I know now he never had one.

I chose to be with him. I chose to not care about me for 4 years. I chose to not listen to my gut, I chose to ignore the red flags, I chose to love him even though I knew he was hurting me. The consequences? I sacraficed everything and was left with nothing.

Today I choose me. I choose happiness. I choose to live and feel and think freely. The consequences?? I got my life back. And hopefully some day I will be able to LOVE again. “The most important thing you will ever learn is just to love, and be loved in return.” I guess that’s the biggest lesson I have learned, and look forward to the day that that statement comes true.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:15pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Amber,

TOWANDA!!!! Good for you! I am so glad that you are here and posting your success and how you are working your way back out of the abys! thank you for sharing this positive outlook! GOOD JOB!!!

Dear sister-sister, I am glad that you had some positive things in your life. It is a shame that the wolves do come disguised as “sheep” in the churches and places of worship, but the Bible warns us about them….and it was so right on!

Glad you escaped and keep on your healing journey! I am proud of and proud FOR you! God Bless.

Dear Banana,

Grief work is what it is all about, grieving the losses we have had and moving onward to new heights in many new ways! I am glad that you found this and shared the link with us! thank you!!!!

Dear Lillian,

Whatever you have to “chant” to yourself to keep yourself CALM in the meeting is what you need to focus on. It is SO IMPORTANT that you NOT let him push your buttons, or at least don’t let it show.

What is yours! YES!!! You may have to “compromise” but whatever happens, CALM, COOL, AND COLLECTED in appearance. that will frustrate him if he cannot push your buttons.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:35pm
witsend says:

These past few weeks I have been trying to come to terms with some difficult issues. I find as I have in the past, that whenever I am faced with something painful, and trying to sort through it, childhood issues present themselves once again.

In trying to come to an acceptance that my sons father was an S/P/N has opened a huge can of worms for me. Bits and pieces of my life (with him) seem to flash before me when I least expect them. The things that I buried deep inside. Things I couldn’t before understand. My “excuses” for his behavior and his issues had always been his addictions.

I had been raised in a strict irish/catholic enviroment and my father was an alcoholic. I was taught early on to make “allowances” for the alcoholic. Although my mother was a good mother she was unable to protect me from my father anymore than she could protect herself. She walked on eggshells around him and I learned to do this as well. Back then, as a “good catholic” family we didn’t speak outloud of the HUGE “pink elephant” in the room, we just learned to live with it. And we never could acknowledge outloud that it existed.

My parents have both passed away. Many years before my mothers death, during a time in my life when I was trying to face my childhood “demons” I questioned my mother why she stayed with my father? I was going through a divorce with my oldest sons father. And I just couldn’t understand why she stayed. And left us all so vulnerable to his explosive temper and alcoholic behavior.

She gave me a reason that I will never forget. She explained to me that her own father had died when she was only 3 years old. because of this being her expierence to grow up WITHOUT a father she explained to me that she thought having ANY father was better than no father at all. Her intentions were good.

It was a pretty powerful explanation for something that I would have never figured out on my own. To this day I still seem to “absorb” what she told me. Because many years later I found myself raising my youngest son (whose father died by suicide) without a father.

And it all seems connected somehow through the generations of pain.

As children we all “absorb” our upbringing differently. I was an adult, facing my own divorce from my oldest sons father before I even recognized that I had any anger issues with my mother. My issues up until then had always been with my father. However even when I recognized these existed with my mother I also realized that my mother was a loving person who did try to do the best she could under the circumstances. When she answered my question of why she stayed I was able to resolve alot.

I am now facing my own sons illness/disorder. And I can’t help but wonder how he “absorbed” this INTENSE anger he has for me? Does he blame me for his fathers death? Is it an ambandonment issue resulting from this? Or is it that this disorder doesn’t allow him to feel the love? I have often felt that. He just doesn’t have the ability to feel LOVE given to him.

My son was sick and running a high fever on Saturday. I nursed him back to health as any mother would do. And yet even him being sick and what I consider being somewhat in a vulnerable “state” by flu symptoms and high fever…..He still seemed to be unable to take in my concern for his well being.

And once the fever broke it was all about manipulations and back to “business”. Picking up right where he left off.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:39pm
banana says:

Lostnsad
You said,
“I’m still at the end of the day the most mad at — MYSELF!! Because I didn’t do what needed to be done and I choose to believe him when I should have known better…. If not at the beginning surely after 6 months… The signs were clear… I just choose to shut my eyes and live in my dreamworld…”

I too have time when I feel this way. In hindsight there were SOOOO many reasons not to believe them.
In my case I shut my eyes and said “I will.”

I think it’s their confidence, their glibness when caught that makes us believe, NOT that their stories are all that believeable….SO many times I thought to myself “he’s so full of chit.” But just thought it was a confidence thing…you know that was the pity ploy…he was put down all the time so he had to lie out of habit….BS

I derive my confidence today in WHO I am. One of the ideas you learn in Christ Life Solution is that YOU ARE NOT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOU, OR WHAT YOU DID.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:45pm
amber says:

OX, thank you! I find inspiration in other people’s stories and that’s why this site has made such a huge difference for me. Being able to share my story helps me to heal, and I hope it helps others as well. And can you tell me what TOWANDA means?!?!? LOL! I’m new and I’ve seen it around here a few times and I wanna be in with the lingo Thanks.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:47pm
skylar says:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....10562.html

I hadn’t heard about this. apparently it happened last year.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:49pm
pearl says:

sstiles54–

I haven’t posted in a long time, but your situation called out to me. I’m learning to consider myself “the most important person in the room.” Though it may sound silly, after a childhood of service and after raising children, we often take care of everyone else and put ourselves last. This must change. Even just thinking of myself as the most important person in the room has a positive impact. It won’t make me selfish; no way.

Another point–anyone who is so picky about how they want their house cleaned that it takes 6-8 hours to do, is a “user” and “abuser.” Your landlady sounds awful. Are you still over giving , giving , giving? Can you move to a cheaper place? Is cleaning this lady’s house really worth the decrease in rent? Is that the best use of your time? We all must take time to relax and live. Otherwise, our bodies will rebel in the form of sickness, to get the message across to us.

You are not alone. There are others who’ve developed coping skills to survive childhood. As the Betrayal Bond states, these defenses are highly adaptive in childhood, because they allow us to survive an abusive situation. However, as an adult, the defenses are maladaptive, because they prevent us from accurately perceiving the presence or absence of abuse. (like someone demanding that their house be cleaned in a manner that takes 6-8 hours)

You said “I have always hated asking anyone to help me with anything. That would be a sign of weakness.” That’s exactly how I feel but I am learning to un-do this belief. We are designed to be balanced in our giving and receiving. Your childhood caused you (and me) to internalize the belief that getting help is a sign of weakness, but now it’s time to un-learn that false belief and to accept that we are designed to give and receive. Overgiving strips us of our energy and health reserves and robs other people of the opportunity to be a giver. In fact, it creates “undergivers” around us, who use us. I’m working on this right now.

Anyway, keep posting. Print out all the wonderful responses to you on this thread and read them often. (I do that sometimes.)

Writing our story and our thoughts in a spiral notebook is good for us. For some reason, we need to express ourselves and get our story out there–just like you did on this post. Another idea that helps me is to answer the question, in writing, of “if time and money were no problem at all, what would your life look like?” This helps me get closer to MY desires, which can be hard because I’m so used to fulfilling everyone’s else’s wishes.

Sending you positive thoughts and blessings for you to create a better life for yourself.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 1:38pm
Isabell says:

We are so close to the finish line. Or, maybe this is magical thinking. Though I have an arsenal of evidence to, at the very least, get him spanked, financially, the court system does not recognize the damaging affect of this personality disorder.

For the past four years he’s stayed, for the most part, out of our children’s lives; except for the occasional crazy-making. When there wasn’t a court order, he would antagonize them, then slither out of the picture, when they refused time with him, until he apologized. This is how he apologizes: “I’m sorry you are mad at me.”

Now, that there is a minimal visitation order, he’s creeping into the corners and crevasses of their lives. He’s making private meeting with their teachers, he’s watching their progress on-line, and publically displaying their failures. He’s seducing mine and the kid’s entirely new group of friends and supporters to doubt me. I’ve seen these effects before. Only, before, it took me years, and being away from him, to figure it out. And example: He’s insisting on paying for expensive sparring gear (directly, rather then just give the check to our son) so he can win favor with our son’s Tae Kwon Do Masters (though he pays NO support, and the kids complain of feeling embarrassed by our poverty.) Our son has not wanted him to go to his practices. He does not want him just showing up. But, he needs this gear, and I can’t afford it. The Masters have been made well aware of our situation, and for over a year, have been supportive. When my ex walks in, for the first time, and waves his fist full of green, they will be eating out of his hand. They are, after all, in the business for making an income. I will become the outcast. It will be awkward for our son. I predict, my ex will sign up his step son, to join with my son. I prepaid for this program. It took me three years. I won’t have the clout my ex has, as he will bring in new money. I no longer have to pay. If my ex signs up his step-son, and invades our son’s space, our son won’t want to go anymore. I will lose all that my son and I have invested. I don’t even know what to do about it.

I don’t know what to do about the way he seduces people to believe him. Anything I say makes me appear crazy, and he appears the victim. So, I hide. Much like when I was a child, and I began to act out, against the abuse, I was the “problem” child. I was the liar. I was making it up. I was separated from my sisters, because I was a problem. I learned to shut up, and tolerate, if I ever wanted to see my sister’s again. This is the same threat my children have been given by the court system. Two don’t HAVE to go with him. But, the youngest does. She will not go, without her siblings. If she doesn’t go, he gets custody. So, they are all forced to shut up, and tolerate.

I feel myself slipping back. By slipping back I mean that I hide. When I feel the disapproving stare, I hide. I don’t make as many public appearances. I don’t get out of the car to greet other parents dropping off or picking up my kids. I don’t engage as much with other’s at church. I become uneasy. I feel like I’m living in a bubble, embarrassed and extremely self conscious. Oddly, and this makes NO sense, I feel guilty.

And, that is how I felt as a little girl. I was always embarrassed, and felt ashamed. I went through extensive therapy. I knew I was broken. I knew I had nothing good to pass on from my early years, and I knew being a mom was the most important thing to me. So, every couple of years, I put myself through a head exam. There are sociopathic therapists, too. That’s a long story, for another time.

In my mid 20’s, when I felt myself “slipping” and severely depressed (in a relationship with a man who was bi-polar Narcissist, and being used and walked on by my a younger sister, who is also bi-polar, and diagnosed as pathological – whatever that means), I knew I needed help. I made several calls to various therapists. Only one actually came on the phone to talk to me. He asked me, “If you were hanging from a rope, are you at the top, the middle or the bottom, barely hanging on?” I told him, “The end is frayed. I only have a grip with one hand to a strained. ” He invited me to come in, that day.

At my first appointment I said, “Well, just about everything that could go wrong in a child’s life, has happened to me, EXCEPT…I’ve never been molested.” After a couple of visits, he complimented me on my insights, intelligence, and perspective. He asked me to review a book he had written, and give him my opinion. Easy enough. When I got to the chapter on molestation, I couldn’t read it. I was filled with rage, anger, fear. I had horrible nightmares. I hated him form making me read his book. And, this is when the real work of therapy began.

I have an exceptional capacity for tolerating abusive behavior. It is a survival skill. It is also like putting a plastic bag over your head, and tying a rope around your neck. Eventually, a soul death takes place. The message: I’m not worthy of breathing. I’ve nearly died twice due to Asthma. Go figure. Even today, with my ex moving in my territory, and influencing my support system, I’m suffering severe tightness in my lungs, having to use my inhaler up to the maximum per day. Normally, I use it about five times a year, if I get bronchitis. The severe attacks are definately stress related.

I wrote letters to my mother, and father. I wrote letters to the foster families that were horrifically abusive. I wrote letters to the police department reporting the sexual abuse. I wrote, and wrote, and wrote. (I didn’t actually send anything; I just gave them to the therapist.) The whole experience was the most painful thing I had ever done, and the most liberating, as well. We cleaned house. We cleared my head of stinking thinking, and I was healed. Love filled my heart, hope filled my future, and a promise of Happily Ever After was on the horizon.

I lovingly kicked my sister out, without the usual drama that would have taken place, before the therapy. I broke up with my boyfriend, willing to face the world on my own.

There is a Bible Scripture that reads: Luke 11:24-26 (NIV) “When an evil spirit come out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. Then it says, ‘I will return to the house I left.’ When it arrives, it finds the house swept clean and put in order. Then is goes and takes seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first.”

I recently did an assessment of my significant relationships. They have all, with the exception of one, been sociopathic. I seem to do all the hard work of cleaning house, only to welcome another that is even more vile, then the previous one. From outward appearances, they were all very different. So different, in fact, that was my guild that I wasn’t making the same mistake.

The truth is…even though I had done all that childhood work, emptied out the baggage, faced my demons, released myself from stinking thinking, just like with any recovery, I needed accountability. I needed a support group that would remind me of red-flags, remind me of healthy boundaries, remind me of self love, and how to stay “dull.” This last one, I learned here. In the past, I have been anything but dull. My older sister once said, “Isabell, your voice lives large in the house of praise.” Those needing of worship, praise, adoration, didn’t have to look far, when I was around. I believed I was just being positive. Even as I type this, I realize edifying others was my way of manipulating them. If I noticed how “Wow” they were, what was special about them, then maybe they would notice that I am special, too. Ughhh. Though I looked, searched, inquired for such, there are no face to face support groups recovering from being in a relationship with the sociopathic.

So, maybe I cleaned out my house of the demons from my childhood, but I turned around and swung the door wide open to welcome others, even more destructive, back in. And, now my poor children have to suffer 9 more years (and, even the rest of their lives) with his heartlessness, his conniving, the wedge he’s already begun between them to split them apart. He divides and concurs, his prey. He triangulates them. He’ll shower two with gifts, positive attention, and ignores, insults, or rattles the gage of the other. When she explodes, acts out, rejects his behavior, the other two will be confused about why she’s so spiteful, when he’s behaving so kindly to them. Anyone that shows him resistance, or sees through his game, will be “cut off” from the rest.

I’m sorry for rambling…this has been therapeutic, in itself. Even when we clean house of the past, our wounds are still fresh. There will always be scar tissue. The old tags of being unworthy are reconfirmed when to think I spent my entire life, reading, researching, seeking counsel, advice, getting evaluated with one goal in mind…for my children to never suffer the way I did. Yet, all that effort was in vain. They may not have had to same extent of abuse I suffered, but they are experiencing the abandonment, the helplessness, the forced tolerance, the humiliation, rejection by their own extended family, and the threats of being separated from one another if they don’t comply. The crazy making mixed messages of rejection, bribery, the appearance of love and security, humiliation, character assassination, poverty, and abandonment all over again, even abandonment by me, as so much of my energy and time is taken up trying to survive him legally, and financially, and there is nothing I can do to change this. I guess feeling guilty makes more sense then I initially thought.

I meet with my lawyer, tomorrow. We have another two hour session, to go over the evidence in preparing for trial. I’ve been so hyper focused on this stuff for the past six weeks? Maybe longer. This time. It seems each year, there is need to hyper focus on the details, and go over everything, again and again. The difference is, this time…I was clearer. I know more about the legal system. I took control back, rather then just handing it over to my attorney. I fit the pieces of the puzzle together, so my attorney will only have to tell the story, with hard evidence, and not have to figure it out from scratch. I just wish the emotional and psychological undermining of the kids, and the way my ex uses the legal system to have power for his benefit vs connection with the kids were as easy to present in court.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 2:04pm
OxDrover says:

Amber, ,the TOWANDA is the “battle cry” of an older woman in the movie Fried Green tomatoes. Where a bunch of kids steal a parking space she is trying to get iinto and then laugh at her and she rams their car with hers and tells them that she has better insurance than they do! I can’t remember the whole lines that went with it, but I can see it in my mind! Basically it means GOOD FOR YOU! Taking back control of your life.

I can’t remember when this tradition started here on LF or who first did it. It is one of our regular “war cries” now though. That and my cyber “cast iron skillet” that if you start to feel too sorry for yourself or get down on yourself I will “boink”you on the head with it (or someone else will “borrow” it and use it) to get your attention focused back on loving yourself! It is a LOVE tap though! that started back a year or more ago when henry was bashing himself and I wanted to get his attention. LOL So those are just two of our litte “traditions” here, but feel free to ask any question, that is the wonderful thing about LF is that the people here (except for the occasional TROLL from a psychopath) are wonderful and kind, compassionate and caring, and if a P comes along and starts or tries to start any trouble, just hit the “report abusivee comment” button and Donna will take care of it as soon as she sees it. (sometimes if they come in late at night it may be morning but she takes care of them QUICKLY!@)

Glad you are here! (((hugs)))
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 2:14pm
amber says:

TOWANDA!!! LOL!!! How could I forget!! When I was younger that was one of my favorite movies of all time!! LOVE IT!!! Thanks!!
And I’m super glad to be here too! All of the unconditional support and inspiring stories are what are keeping me stong to not allow him back EVER!
And TOWANDA to that!!
Thaks for the warm welcome! HUGS TO ALL!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 2:51pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Amber,

If you let him back watch out for the “skillet!” LOL This is a great place, isn’t it?
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:14pm
skylar says:

Isabelle,
Most of my revelations have come from learning to recognize the roots of naricissism and sociopathy. I felt like it wouldn’t do me any good to bandage my wounds and heal if I had to go back out into the battlefield unarmed again. Knowledge is my armor and weapon. “Skylar” means protection through knowledge. I don’t want to invite 7 demons back to my house.

It’s very liberating to have this protection and I’ve invested huge amounts of time and effort toward acquiring and polishing it. I know that I’m going to need it, so it’s worth the effort. I’m also very happy to be able to pass it on to people here at Lf and to people I know in person. I want the demons to have no place to rest.

It’s great that you are teaching your children how to recognize the P’s. Also remember to teach them “gray rock”. This could be a very valuable lesson and practice for your son to learn how to deal with the P’s stepson in an emotionless and mature way. Advise him to watch for patterns of behavior so that he can add to his own armor against P’s. For some reason, when I allow myself to perceive the P’s, not as human, but as an “it” with predictable patterns of behavior, I don’t feel emotional about it. It just is.

BTW, I had an interesting dream 2 nights ago:
I think that, due to overcrowding, all the buildings had been redesigned so that people could use the ceilings as floors and not even notice that they were sitting upside down. So now each building had twice as much usable space. The reason this was possible had something to do with huge electronic magnets keeping everyone stuck to the ceiling. In addition it seemed to warp space so you couldn’t really tell that you were existing upside down. It was a world like Escher’s drawings.

Unfortunately, the population overcrowding also caused resources, like electricity, to be scarce so there were frequent power outages and everybody would come falling down from the ceiling every once in a while. For some reason, we all thought this was a small price to pay for the luxury of using twice as much space, so we continued to hang upside down and when the power failed, we would grab something that was nailed down and just hang on until the power came back on. Then we would continue as if nothing had happened. My dream ended while I was hanging from a railing waiting for the power to come back on. LOL.

Anyone care to try to interpret that dream?.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:15pm
shabbychic says:

skylar, interesting article, I had heard about this, but I am amazed and happy that they identified con men as sociopathic in the article!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:20pm
Lillian says:

Hi Skylar: When I’ve interpreted dreams I am usually asked what the major symbols like electricity, magnets, ceilings, mean to me. That will shed light on what is going on. Does electricity mean power to you? Are magnets a good force or a bad one for you? The ceiling is for dancing or for sitting for you? Then what happens when there is no power for you? Do you hang on or let go. The power comes back shortly. There is the luxury of having twice as much for the same space. This is a big dream. A good one I would think. Keep hanging on. No matter the forces good or bad the power will come back. And you have extra room or space now…..

my two cents: I have to share a dream I had when I was still a victim of the P. I was going to a work event and it was for some reason a clambake. I was walking along with stacks of things in my arms. The two men next to me were empty handed. They offered to help me carry the stuff. I said no thanks. I can carry it. In fact, I insisit. Very eye opening. At the time I was supporting the P, my ex husband and my chilcren. While they lived nice happy little live. Wow. Dreams are interesting as it’s the brain unleased from society and constraint. Best, Lynn
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 4:25pm
skylar says:

Lillian, thanks for your take on my dream. Your insistance in your own dream says that you were making your own choices. That sounds like a good thing, right?

Usually I interpret dreams just like you did, but this one was different for me. I think that the dream was just telling me that the world had turned upside down and that most of the time, I cant tell which way is up and which is down until some part of the facade fails.

But your idea to consider the electricity and magnets was eye opening, because in dreams, I don’t usually question why things are the way they are – no matter how bizarre they seem, I just accept them. But in this dream, I actually made up some “explanations” for why things were the way they were. Even though my explanations made no sense, at least I wasn’t just accepting things.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 5:54pm
sstiles54 says:

First of all, I want to say that I am so grateful to all who read my posts & responded. It has just been so long since I have have anyone care about what I was saying, or even really listen. I have had so many emotions & thoughts running through my head today. I felt guilt for saying out loud the stuff my dad did to me. Your parents are supposed to be the ones who take care of you, to keep you from being hurt, they are like super beings. All these many years, I justified whatever he dished out to me as something I must have deserved. Good people are not treated like this, so I must have been really bad. Maybe my mom stayed married to him because her own father had died when she was only 2, & she watched my gramma struggle to raise 5 kids by herself. I had never even made that connection until I read it here. I think the Sunday school class I am taking (Battlefield of the Mind),has really started me thinking about the lifelong wrong beliefs I was taught as a child. I know I have to work at getting rid of those beliefs before they kill me. I have to learn how to take care of me, something that never felt right to me, almost selfish. I ordered The Betrayal Bond, & I started to read that last night. It’s weird that I never thought of my childhood as unremarkable, it seemed normal to me. I didn’t know at the time it was training me for a life of self inflicted pain.
Right now I have to work the 2 jobs just to survive. I worked up the courage to call about another place to live. I am going to go see it tomorrow after work. I have to get out of the place I’m in now, it is just too much to remain here. When my son helped me find it when the s left, I was working in a factory, & making $18 an hr. The job I have now pays $8.50 an hour, hence working 2 jobs. I live in OH in the county with the highest rate of unemployment in the area. Alot of the industries have closed, gone bankrupt, or laid folks off permanently in my area. I have to get this financial pressure off myself. I don’t think my body can take too much more of being in this state of high stress alert much longer.
Well, I’ve rambled on for quite a while. I don’t want to hog the post. I’m going to read back through this thread, to see if it triggers any new thoughts or memories. Also to feel the love & caring you have all shown me. Wow whatta feeling.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 6:27pm
Kathleen Hawk says:

Isabell, thank you for that long, personal post. What you did is something like what I did. Go back into the past, the parts that I had pretty thoroughly blocked, and face the truth of them. I wrote a lot of letters too.

I find that, after all the psychological work of cleaning house, the next stage is practicing. Part of it is trying out our best ideas of what it means to be the person we are now. I wrote in another thread about how our buried strengths, when we finally bring them up to the surface, have to grow up from wherever they got stuck by trauma. So our first ideas may not be the ideas we will use when are strengths have grown up a bit.

Like I think the formal “red flags” ultimately become less important than really well-developed boundaries that let you know, clearly and urgently, when you don’t feel comfortable with something. That discomfort isn’t about what’s wrong with the situation, but about you. That you don’t want to be there and need to either fix it or leave it. Because your real life is about you, what you need and want.

And how that relates to your situation with your ex is that he is creating obstacles to how you want to raise your children and the conditions you want in your life. You identify what is wrong and then you go to work on it. Tell the dojo master that this man is disruptive to your child’s wellbeing, and that you expect him to have some loyalty to your son. Take the money for the uniform, but if he becomes more involved , you will have to pull your son out. And you don’t want to do that, and you assume he doesn’t want that either. But you want you son in a psychologically safe environment, and you are looking for his support.

If you assume you deserve to have things go right for you, you take on the challenges as they arise. It’s a different mindset, but it is the mindset of someone who is emotionally free and feels entitled to a good life. You don’t owe anyone anything, except the gratitude and loyalty to the people who help you (as long as they are helping you). If you get clear-eyed about this, you may be surprised about not only what you can accomplish, but also how it changes the way you look at things (including yourself).

One of the ways to look at recovery is that first we have to learn how to say no. And then when we get really good at that, good enough that we have some confidence in our ability to protect ourselves, we learn how to say yes. To look at the world around us, see what is good and what we want in our lives, and say yes to that. At that point, all the business of saying no is just the way we keep cleaning house, keep ourselves directed toward the good, and keep ourselves feeling like our lives are effective, meaningful and rewarding.

All of this is very abstract, and I apologize for that. I’m not in your life, so I can’t tie this to your real circumstances. But two things to keep thinking about are “how do I want this to come out?” and “what would I do, if I knew I could not fail.” And of course, get very comfortable with the phrase “this doesn’t work for me.” That phrase works best when you’re really clear about what you do want, but it’s also pretty good when you just want to get rid of something that you find repellent.

What you have already done in your life just makes me want to jump up and down and cheer. I think you’ll figure out how to manage this weasel. Not directly, but by recruiting other good people to help you maintain the safe, rewarding life you want for you and your children. No one likes a destructive user. You’ll see.

Kathy
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 6:38pm
recovering says:

Donna — You really hit things on the nail with this article. I know that my experience with character-disordered people forced me to come to terms with my own “human condition” neuroses — misguided beliefs about what it means to “be a good person” (childhood undoctrination that promotes guilt when we object to others trying to use us), the admonition to put others first, always turn the other cheek, believe the best about others and give benefit of doubt despite evidence to the contrary.

I am grateful for my experience not just with ex’s but also various family and friends who were users. I found me in the process and can now embrace my own Shadow — those parts I once disowned in attempts to be the good person who always sacrificied. The integration within my psyche about my own potential to do harm made me even more conscious of my ability to make choices and in the process to learn clearly how to hold myself and others accountable for behaviors.

I am humbled by, as well as uplifted, in owning this power to choose. It is the foundation of self-love that knows my strengths and limits enough to take care of myself and not attempt to fix others who have a right to choose how they conduct their life as I do.

Through this ongoing inner journey in recovering from co-dependency, I remain clear about my boundaries and do not allow others to manipulate me. I challenge people quite easily now — without having to be overly confrontational — and don’t care what they think about me for doing so. If they leave my life because I set boundaries, so be it.

In fact, I’ve become adequately repulsed by single-focused takers/users. I have no interest in giving them permission to enjoy my company or otherwise take up my time beyond what I am comfortable with.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 6:53pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Well, I managed to down two computers last week…..and could not fix them…just now got my laptop back.
This article sure hit home for me. I was ‘groomed’ at an early age to be pleasing and I was unloved. I found my love in my marriage/and especially my children….and I sacrificed too much for all of them.
I guess my x has dealt me one of his final blows he thinks….he met someone online and married her today after only knowing her several months.
[in a huge church wedding] a woman from another country- whose main exports are coffee and drugs- possibly not in that order. Her dead hub was murdered by the drug cartel!! [all via my daughter who told me so I would be prepared during
family get togethers]. Marriage means nothing to him….but I think this one might..because she has two tough sons that I believe will not allow him to treat her the way he treated me. I have learned a lot from betrayal.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:18pm
skylar says:

Oh, TB, that is wonderful news!
Finally, he will get his just desserts! Her sons will keep him in line because those latin american’s don’t like people messing with their families. They especially have strong attachments to their mothers.

If you ever get the chance, to meet one of the sons, you should prepare what you will say. You know, just a friendly warning to keep a close eye on him.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:46pm
Twice Betrayed says:

LOL! Good idea!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:03am
shabbychic says:

TB, he’s such an assclown, and she doesn’t sound any better. “Two tough sons”… that is great!!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:10am
Twice Betrayed says:

LOLOLOL! Assclown….bwaaahahahaha!
Yeah, she is really sucking up from what I hear….she needs citizenship and to get one son to America…one son already here. Ole’ X might have met his match when it comes to using………………:P
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:26am
geminigirl says:

TB Its so pathetic, really!We dont even have to buy them the rope, they not only buy it themselves, but they make the noose, put their head in it, and sooner or later, they kick the chair away! Thank you God!! They are their own worst enemies! all we have to do is sit on the side lines and wait, -sooner or later they will hang themselves!They dont need any help from us! all we need is patience, then__TOWANDA!!! they have f—d themselves!!!LOL!!!Love, gem.XX
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 2:15am
banana says:

I believe I am learning from this, becoming stringer and becoming a better advocate for myself,
BUT
I still want him out of my life…the pain will always be there if he continues to have joint custody and can emotionally abuse me through our son….
somebody explain that away.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:01am
OxDrover says:

Dear Banana,

YOU have control over the pain, over your reaction to his behavior. YOU. and ONLY YOU. sure, he can do nasty things, but you can choose how YOU react emotionally as well as externally.

You can choose for the pain to subside, and if he does get some visitation even though it is an irritant, you can learn to ACCEPT what you CANNOT CHANGE. It won’t be easy, I won’t say that, but it is POSSIBLE.

Our reactions to whatever circumstances we find ourselves in can be HEALTHY OR UNHEALTHY, and that is up to US. That is the greatest lesson I have learned from this whole thing and all the other psychopathic associations I have had.

My P son still wants to kill me, and I have no doubt will try to find someone to do it for him, and I can choose to live in TERROR or accept that that is the truth, and live CAUTIOUSLY but NOT in “terror.”

If I live in terror (which I could) I would have a miserable life of continual stress, but living with realistic CAUTION I am doing all I can to protect myself, but I am still able to live a life filled with satisfaction, love and joy! and PEACE. I am vigilent, but not HYPER-vigilent. I do not start at every noise outside my house, and I sleep well at night, not worried about someone sneaking in and harming me—but I do have a pistol close at hand most of the time, and I am emotionally prepared to use it if I need to.

I refuse to let my P son’s murderous intentions toward me ruin my life.

You can also refuse to let your X’s evil intentions and crap ruin yours, or your son’s. You must change your internal reactions to him and re-channel your thinking. YOU CAN DO THIS!!!!! (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 9:28am
Twice Betrayed says:

geminigirl: you are so correct! In their effort to use/abuse and heap revenge on someone they do eventually wind up hanging themselves. It does feel kinda good to see this coming down the pike………..I mean like an ending to a movie where the bad guy gets what is coming to them. [my daughter said one of the comments from my x's nephew was: "I might say that's the closest thing to a shotgun wedding I've ever seen." I can't help but wonder what he meant by that comment, but I refuse to ask...]
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:02pm
style1 says:

I think every man that I have had a serious relationship with has some elements of this .. alcoholic, liars, gamblers, cheaters, spiritual freaks, cons, control freaks, after what I have. I just think I attract this type.. I was total by a psychologist that I attract playboy types. I am what they want to have on their arm or be associated with. But that I am too intelligent for them to totally con me. I didn’t see it, but now I really really do. Of course, I have seen through the obvious, but the ones I get are very devious business exec types.. appearing so in love with me or so good.. or so something.. the first one out of college was the worst and I thought nothing could be as bad as he was… but…they were, only different.. so I am totally changing what I am looking for.. I just want a good man, with morals, with integrity and who doesn’t talk about what will be, but what is.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 2:33pm
Twice Betrayed says:

style: please let me know if you find one…..and what pond you fished in. I read where Michael Caine has been married and faithful for 35 years….and has acted with the world’s most beautiful women including intimate scenes. Boy, his wife is still beautiful and she is 62 years old.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 3:13pm
amber says:

Ladies (and gentlemen)…I saw an interesting report on the news that there is something about us or our paticular personality types, that draws us to people (not necessarily S) and relationships like this that are constantly filled with drama and turmoil. Scary I know. And for most of us this probably isn’t the first time we’ve been in a roller coaster relationship, even if those other relationships may not have been with a S. Apparently, we interpret that drama as “excitment” and we become addicted to the highs and the lows. Normal guys are constant, predictable, easy..and we don’t feel that burning passion or intense spark like we do with the S. We like the “excitment” because let’s face it, most of these guys “seemed soooo interesting, or we think they have something to offer, or they’re soooo charming.” The highs set off endorphines in our brains and it’s that feeling that “we can’t get enough of him.” And when there is trouble? We do anything we can to chase that “high” of when things were good. Basically we’re addicted to A-HOLES!! I think that’s why maybe some of us stayed longer than we should have. I don’t know..maybe we set off some pharmone that alerts the sociopaths and I think can smell that we are perfect prey, victims?!?! We don’t like that nice guy because he’s so normal or boring. But the normal boring ones are the ones that are faithful and truly love the other person they are with. I have friends that are in the most loving relationships and I envy how in love they are, or they never fight, but they’re husbands are just your average Joe. Siiiighhh…Uggghhh….Booooo…I really hope that this doesn’t mean that these are the types of guys I will always choose or attract. But I guess knowing this and being conscious of it I’m going to RUN the next time I meet a guy that seems intruging…lol..I guess I’m gonna start looking at those normal and boring boys in a whole new light. But I thought it was interesting to hear that and thought I would share it with you.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:27pm
skylar says:

Yep amber, you are exactly right. So I’ve been looking for a normal boring guy, but sometimes I wonder if they aren’t just P’s in “gray rock” disguise. I can’t help worry about it, because I KNOW that I attract P’s and I think I repel normal guys because, well, how come I don’t see any around?
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:39pm
geminigirl says:

Yes, TB, but its a bitter sweet revenge if the P happens to be your adult daughter. One half of you is saying “YES!!!! She got whats coming to her!!” but the other, Mum half is saying,”Are you crazy? this is your daughter your talking about, whom your supposed to love and cherish and forgive.
If there was any sort of closure or apology from her,Im sure Id instantly forgive her for everything, but it aint goin to happen.I should feel sorry for her,but I feel sorrier for ME, and I know NC is my only hope of emotional survival.It sure isa dilemma! Love and {{HUGS!} Gem.XXThanks Oxy, for your sane and kind words, I know your right. Ill try not to even think about her, far less look up her pics on Facebook, {which seems to be a haven for Narcs!!!}
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:49pm
Matt says:

amber:

Yes, it is true we are conditioned to get involved with these creatures. Until you really understand why you get involved with these subhumans — and I mean understand both intellectually and emotionally — you are doomed to continue to get involved with them.

After the emotional battering we have all taken at the hands of a S (or multiple cluster-Bs) it is natural to want to prove “you’ve still got it” and that you are attractive and interesting until somebody. I rebounded myself after I drove S off. It wasn’t a happy experience.

I finally forced myself to take a “time out” and figure out what was going on in my head and heart. I also used that time to figure out what it was I really wanted in a partner. By the time I put myself back on the market-place I approached things differently than I ever did before — giving things a bit of breathing space, not letting things get driven purely by chemistry, monitoring myself to make sure I wasn’t just selling myself, but also seeing what the person opposite me was selling, and sticking closely to my list of “non-negotiables” (the list of what I was looking for in a partner).

It paid off. I’ve been seeing a really wonderful man for the last 5 months. It gets better each day. I don’t spend my every waking minute obsessing about him. I don’t worry about what he is doing when I’m not around. I trust him. And trust me when I tell you that if a relationship is based on trust, the chemistry gets better and better.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:

giminigirl: Oh yeah, I agree….not your daughter. I’ve got two [and a son] that basically only think about themselves. My older one betrayed me big time. But, they all have. Yeah, I would forgive too……
Never ceases to amaze me regarding my x hub..he could/would not remain faithful to me….and here he is married again seven months after I divorced him…..even tho I know how these p’s are….still causes my jaw to drop.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:43pm
newlife08 says:

Matt,

You are so right. There is a good book by Henry Cloud and John Townsend “BOUNDARIES” – lots of good stuff to read and process. There is also one for MArriage and Boundaries in dating.

I am so thrilled to hear the contentment in your post, Matt – you deserve all the best !!!!
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 9:35pm
Stargazer says:

Hey homeys,
What is up with all these YOUNG guys hitting on me? 27, 29, 34……Part of me wants to….but I just can’t after what happened with the last boy. I’m still hurting over that. Like Matt said, I have to really ask myself what I want in a relationship. A quick fling is NOT it. So is this some kind of a test or something? Suddenly, they are all throwing themselves at me. And they are all so sweet and charming. There’s one that looks just like Toby McGuire. He is 34. It’s so sad to walk away from these guys. But I have to tell you if one comes along that looks like Johnny Depp, I’m a goner. It’s sad, but that is a part of my past. Maybe a part I never really embraced because when I was in my 20’s I always had a serious bf who was 10 years older or more. The timing is just so wrong right now because I want a serious relationship. I’m also still hurt by the boy from September, for those who remember the story. Oh, and I am 49.

At least I have arrived at the point where I’d prefer someone my own age. My midlife crisis must be coming to an end.

Wistfully,
Star
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 9:55pm
Matt says:

newlife08:

Yeah I am content – as proven by the 15 pounds I have put on in the last 5 months. Guess I could try to blame it on Nexium, but I guess there is some truth to the saying “fat and happy”. Now if I could just solve that pesky unemployment problem…
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 9:59pm
Matt says:

Stargazer:

Become a cougar — it is the latest rage.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:01pm
Stargazer says:

Been there, done that. Got burned. Next idea?
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:05pm
Stargazer says:

LOL Matt, I recently met a couple of guys who are in my age range that I actually found attractive. They groom themselves, stay fit but aren’t fanatical, are very interesting, genuine, funny and down to earth. Gay.

I swear, to say I’ve had bad luck with men is like saying the Titanic had bad luck with an iceberg. XD
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:08pm
Stargazer says:

Matt,
Employment is highly overrated. ***coughcoughhatesherjobcough***
Love,
Star
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:11pm
Matt says:

Stargazer:

When I used to hear women say all the good ones were either taken or gay, I kept asking myself where the hell the ones who played on my team were hiding. All I kept meeting were N/S/Ps.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:11pm
Stargazer says:

Apparently, you found the one who isn’t! Do you really think there’s a higher incidence of N/S/P in the gay community?
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:28pm
witsend says:

Star,
Well girl, first of all take for all it is worth….No, I am not saying to go for the fling..LOl. But let it sink in. Feel good about yourself. Embrace the flattery BUT not the guy.

I loved my 30’s but actually my 40s was my favorite “decade” of my life…I just didn’t KNOW it until it was over
It wasn’t that good things happened in my 40’s necessarily. They didn’t. But my lifes experience and what I did with them up to this point, I finally arrived to a place where I felt really comfortable in my own skin.
Maybe I reflected so much more on what was most important in life. Lots of soul searching. Like you are doing.

Ever since I turned 50 it has been downhill from there! The body changes…Ugh. I am thin but everything goes south regardless…. The skin, the hair….Its all something to maintain now….None of it comes naturally like before…

I wish someone had told me….Enjoy it while you got it. So I’m telling you…..Enjoy it. That flattery….It will make you a more confident person when you meet Mr Right. (who is of course close to your own age)
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:32pm
Stargazer says:

I wish I could enjoy it, witsend. I am still hurt by the fling with the young guy friend from September (who I knew for a few years). I’m having a hard time with this one, because it was more than just rejection, it was humiliation along with it (when he never called me again). I hate the way some guys can do that, especially the young ones. I will be 50 in one year. I’ve now had 2 people tell me that it’s all downhill after 50. So I have one year to enjoy attention from men and then it’s over I guess. And I’m not really enjoying it all that much because it’s so bittersweet. Where were the 27 year-olds when I was 27?

Anyway, they seem so young. They all want to text and instant message. I don’t even own a cell phone. And whenever I read text speak–or whatever you call it–it makes me want to pluck my eyeballs out.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:40pm
henry says:

Star Star Star – I dont text – dont know how. Dont want to know how. Technology left me behind when they invented the VCR. Star sweetheart – dont get mad at me but all a 27 year old is good for is a good time. Just think about it. Hell I have shoe’s older than 27. I miss being young. But any 27 year old that would date me at 55 years old want’s more than my love.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:48pm
henry says:

and Star – your life is not over at 50 ~~~!!!dont make me get my skillet~~~!!!
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:02pm
witsend says:

Star,
Life isn’t over at 50! The body just isn’t the same. Unless your a fitness junkie. Or never want to eat another cookie in your lifetime. Or chocolate… My own body spoiled me….I used to be able to eat anything I wanted and not gain an ounce.

I wouldn’t want to be 27 years old again for all the money in the world. ALL those lessons to be learned all over agin? No thanks.
I would trade the wisdom of life experience for the body any day.
You can still be in a relationship at this age….Maybe not as many hits from the young ones….But all you really need is the “hit” from the right one, yes? Quality over quantity, timing is everything for a good lasting relationship.

They seem so young because they ARE young! Their phones are their LIFE lines. I can’t even relate to that! Lol….My phone is plugged into the wall and I don’t need it when I leave the house.

You might have had a very tiny voice warning you about the boy…..And maybe it was so tiny you couldn’t hear it. But if nothing else as with any relationship you know going in there is always a risk of getting hurt.
You learned a valuable hard lesson. That you want more from a relationship.

I had the same experience 10 years ago with a friend of mine 12 years my junior. It was very humiliating afterwards because he lived accross the street from me. I had to see him everyday. A big lesson for me…I hated that lesson.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:37pm
witsend says:

oops.. suppose to be : WOULDN’T trade the wisdom
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:41pm
heavenbound says:

I love you guys, your all just wonderful!
I guess I’m almost 20 years your junior and I can’t follow the whole cell and txting. I tried, i really did. I was blown away by the p and his txting crap since he is 10 yrs older than me but thats ok!

You guys gave me a great smile, thank you so much!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:09am
skylar says:

Hi Star, Henry, Witsend, Matt, and Heavenbound.
Just popping in to say hi. I miss you guys when I’m not checking in. LOL. I don’t think I’ve ever had people I feel so close to in my life! Bizarre that I’ve never met any of you, but we share the same crazy-life so we “know” each other.

heavenbound, yes, everyone here is awesome. Its a gift from the Ps that we got to meet each other. We are so much luckier than the P’s. A few weeks ago, I met a total stranger and felt close to her because of our common experience. (P-parents and P-lover). To be able to know and trust a person instantly because of a shared experience is REALLY, REALLY AWESOME. It’s what the P’s envy about us. LOL. and yet it is their gift to us without them even knowing.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:55am
skylar says:

Star, I’m so jealous of you to attract young men. I know it would be a risk but – wow. I don’t know why young guys aren’t breaking down my door, I must be giving off the wrong signals. – oh wait, no, I never leave the house. That must be it. So where are you meeting these studs? can I give you my address? I just need a self esteem boost. My FWB is older than I am by 3 years. He’s wonderful, but after 25 years in prison, I need all the self esteem boost I can get.

For 15 years my FWB has been “friend with batteries” plus my imaginary friends. LOL. It felt safer than the orgies that the P demanded, so I had to completely cut him off from all physical contact for so long. A change in pace is nice, i hope I’m not making a big mistake.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:04am
geminigirl says:

Guys Im 70 now but Im told I look 60. I have few wrinkles,am a bit overweight, but have good boobs, nice shoulders, and my legs are just the same,[expept for fat knees!} I agree, I wouldnt want to go back to my 20s or 30s but 40s was quite agood time for me, as I met my second husband at 44. We got married when I was 45, and recently had our 25th Wedding anniversary, so Im here as living proof that there ARE nice men out there! Im shameless, I tell the young guy in the newsagent he is cute, and his wife says,”You can have him!” Every time i go in there now, he smiles and blushes to the roots of his hair! No trouble with avoiding temptation, as the older you get,it avoids you!LOL! But you havee the courage and cheek to chat young men up, and HEY they LIKE IT!!So I guess,”Whatever your age, embrace the skin your in! “{That was the line that won me a dinner in a 4 star restaurant last year, to think of a line about this skin care range.!} Love, Gem.XXMy husband is 76, not interested in sex any more but hey, he cuddles me all the time and tells me he loves me every day, so I guess this is as good as its going to get! he says the mainsprings gone! You cant have everything.BBWWAAAHH!! Why not??!!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:25am
skylar says:

geminigirl,
great line: “embrace the skin you’re in”

that’s a bit creepy,his wife telling you, “you can have him”.
because that’s what I told the neighbor about my p, before I knew he was a p. Turned out she already did have him, she’s a crazy husband stealer. LOL.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 10:23am
Twice Betrayed says:

Hey, it ain’t all over after fifty! I am well over fifty and look less than forty=am told that all the time. Young guys love me….I get hit on more by them than older ones. [I don't date or have affairs...casual sex is not me.] I don’t date because I am burned and have zero trust. But, if I marry again…I want one about ten to twelve years younger so all the equipment works.
*When tempted to think over fifty is old=look at Christie Brinkley. HOT! and well over fifty!
exercise, good skin care, good diet, right wardrobe, nice makeup, facial exercises [yes, they work!]and any other help available keeps us younger. I have never even had injections…too chicken. I do look for alternative ways tho…and topical HA fillers work pretty good. I work at staying younger for my own self esteem. *looking/living good is the best revenge. ;P
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 11:11am
amber says:

Man I have a long way to go. Big sigh…I’m only 27 and see how most of you say you would never want to be 27 again. Right now I can totally understand why that would be true. I’m learning some HUGE leasons at my age, everything that could go wrong did, it’s a constant upward battle…and sometimes wonder am I doomed? Will it ever get better or are things only to go downhill from here? But I see how much wisdom all of you have. And how you embrace YOU and your DESTINY and HAPPINESS. I’m working on it, and making all the right moves to! I keep hearing everyone say that your 30’s and 40’s are the greatest time in your life. Not long ago I dreaded the idea of turning 30..and 40??? Well, I don’t have any business turning 40!!! LOL. I’m trusting that you all know what I’m about to find out!!! I guess the only good thing about being 27 and being involved with a S (since I was a mere 22 when I met him)..is that I have my 30’s and 40’s to be aware and conscious of all the red flags so I know to choose carefully!! Thanks to all of you for your stories and affirmation that life does get better!!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 11:50am
witsend says:

Amber,
Never to young to learn these lessons.

But take the time to learn them! Heal, before you go back ou there. You are young so learn to take care of yourself. Better than ANYONE else could possibly do. Make yourself happy so you never have to look for a man to do that for you. Give him big shoes to fill before you even meet him.

I thought I read that on your second date (?) with your X he had told you about finding yourself at the bottom of a lake with cement shoes if you crossed him? Forgive me if this isn’t part of your story…(being in your 50’s also means you can forget stuff, lol)
But sweetie if it IS your story. THAT is a HUGE red flag.

The best definition of LOVE I have ever heard from a happily married couple was from a MANS mouth!
It is so RIGHT ON you would think it was from a woman perspective. This couple was married for over 40 years. They had adult children and grandchildren.

We were sitting down to eat at my house many years ago. My kitchen was at “full house” capacity because a bunch of friends were helping me put a new roof on my house the year after my husband died. Everyone was starving, there were not enough chairs, and the food was ready. It was kind of an everyone for themselves kind of deal. Grab a plate, grab some food, and find a spot…….

You couldn’t help but notice that while everyone else “fended” for themselves, he very quietly found her a chair, found her a spot to sit in AND then proceded to get his own food.

I couldn’t help but notice this….

The “table talk” gravitated towards couples, and love, and problems in marriage ect.

I couldn’t help but ask them what was there secret? How they stayed together for so many years and still had so much respect for each other?

I’ll never forget what HE said: He said a good loving relationship is simply putting your partners needs and wants in life on the same level of importance as your own needs and wants in life.

Wow….That really says it all doesn’t it?
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:24pm
Twice Betrayed says:

amber: trust us…..your thirties and forties rock!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:24pm
Rosa says:

Amber:

You are not alone.
I am also 27!

And ErinBrock is only 23!

NO COMMENTS FROM THE PEANUT GALLERY,PLEASE!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:29pm
Twice Betrayed says:

witsend: I have a good friend that is like that to me….but I don’t think he has strength as a man….he does not make decisions well and he does not lead well. I can’t love a man that I don’t find strength as a male in….so I am single and will probably remain that way. And, I also confess to being shallow enough to only be attracted to large, very strong physical males too. Talk about doomed….
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:30pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Well, you little pups, you! I like young people’s zest for life….and their humor….keep it coming!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:32pm
amber says:

Thanks everyone. I am healing and embracing every part of it. I know that it’s all about them making my needs as important if not more important that theirs. And believe it or not he did do a good job of that sometimes, but the longer I was with him, he couldn’t hide the bad anymore. I chose to ignore the red flags. I know I did. Believe me, when he joked about cement shoes, it made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I could always hear my mom’s voice telling me, “listen to your gut, you know when it’s tyting to tell you something is wrong.” But I was 22 and he was 36 and there was just something about him that I had to have. He had such an exciting life, so intruging, and I wanted to be a part of it. And before I knew it I was in a fog, completely in love and he knew it. He was a manipulator from the beginning, he knew hit the jackpot! And the whole time, there was always this anxiety, I was always on egg shells, I knew better, but was so caught up. Well, the fog has cleared. He took up a good portion of my 20’s and I’m looking forward to moving onto my 30’s and 40’s. LESSON LEARNED!!! LOL. He’ll be turning 41 this year and hates his life, really doesn’t want to live. I will NEVER be like him. And that I’m looking forward to! I have a date with a very nive boy from my Biology class on Tuesday. We’ve spent the last two months getting to know each other and he makes me comfortable, he’s kinda nerdy and boring, nothing I would have ever given a second glance to before. I will know if the phrase “cement shoes” comes out of his mouth I’ll run and never look back!! Promise!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 12:51pm
skylar says:

Has anyone else noticed that the P’s seem to have heads that are kinda large in proportion to their bodies?
I mean, heads that perhaps aren’t actually much larger than normal but give that appeance?

I’m taking a survey on this.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:13pm
Twice Betrayed says:

amber: P guys when they hit forty and beyond take it very hard because they depend on their virility and looks for attraction and power.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:13pm
Twice Betrayed says:

sly: you have a point there….would agree from my experience.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:14pm
Twice Betrayed says:

grrrrrr…..meant to say sky….hate these laptop keys!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:17pm
amber says:

PAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH SKYLAR!! My best friend used to say he had a bobble head!!!! Oh my god wait till I tell her, she’s going to crack up!! His head was HUGE!!! In appearance and in grandious thoughts! I guess they would have to be so big to store all the bad thoughts?!?!?!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:28pm
skylar says:

oh,no my horoscope doesn’t bode well….
Persons may enter your life who have a very powerful effect upon your mind and emotions, almost as if they have a magical hold over you. No matter how you strive to escape their influence, you seem to be held by an invisible thread. Such people may be holding onto you by a subconscious complex, taking advantage of a weakness or fear within you and using this knowledge to coerce you. They may even be doing this quite inadvertently; their knowledge may be as subconscious as the complex within you that gives them the power. It is important that you learn what part of you is giving someone this power. Do not blame the other person, no matter how culpable he or she seems. Through apparent power struggles with others you will uncover your weaknesses and learn how to deal with them.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:29pm
skylar says:

Ah ha!
So far, it’s true. Their heads ARE larger. Noticably larger. this could be an important clue! Little children’s heads are larger in proportion to their bodies…
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:31pm
amber says:

Mine also had an eating disorder?!?! Anybody else’s have an eating disorder?? And was diagnosed with ADHD. To this day I believe that was a wrong diagnosis. I know he’s Bipolar. So he was Bipolar, drug addict, Sociopath, with an eating disorder and a huge head!! God, what did I see in that AHOLE!!! LOL Oh it’s all so easy to see in retrospect.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 1:32pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Amber,

MANY Ps are ALSO bi-polar and ADHD, and when they have all 3 it is a BAD COMBINATION. None of these are exclusive so they can have 1, 2 or all 3 or even more diagnoses.

BTW, I loved being in 20s, 30s and 40s, and 50s, and and in manyw ays I loved each decade as it brought something new and exciting to my life. I’m in my 60s now (63 in december) and you know what, 60s rock too! I am now free to be ME and not worry if my hair is “perfect” or my skin perfect or whatever. Sure I would like to look and feel like I did when I was 30, or 40 but you know what, I’m OK where I am and am learning to love the skin I am in. I am learning to be a ROCKING old lady and it is FUN! I can flirt outrageously with the young guys and they love it and no one is ever offended, and I can dress how I like and still be cool, it is just wonderful really!

Oh, and guys, I got me another NEW HAT, it is a tan “Montana Peak” hat sort of like smokey the bear wears, but curled a little around the edge of teh brim, and is made of genuine beaver felt, and hand made by one of the premier living history hat makers! It has a string to hold it on when I ride the donkeys and my sons say it is “really me” so yipee for old ladies! Outrageous old ladies! Are you in Gem? LOL

Ps. I have not been able to get through to Lily, she is not answering her phone the last couple of days.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:15pm
amber says:

Thanks OX! The whole time I was trying figure out is he mainc? Is he depressed? Is he hyperactive? Is he delusional?? I just couldn’t fathem that he could be ALL of them and I guess he was!!! Well you couldn’t be more right!! Having all 3 was more than a BAD COMBO!! IT WAS A NIGHTMARE!!! I guess the raging cocaine addiction and buelimia were just a BONUS!!!! LOL. Oh I’m glad I can laugh at it now. This is just more and more validation that he was sick beyond any love will ever help.

And congrats to you!! I can really learn something from your wisdom and attitude towards life! Hope you enjoy your new hat! Sounds like you’re living the life right now! Here’s to you LIVING! Wait..wait..wait…….TOWANDA!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:27pm
Twice Betrayed says:

hmmmm, amber…I would have to pull a Frued on that one of yours….and mine too. [Frued: sexual issues]
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:37pm
amber says:

Meaning you think they were sexually abused? I’m not sure if I’m picking up what you’re putting down..enlighten me some more…
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:46pm
witsend says:

Twice Betrayed,
Well you know what you know. You know by your past experiences what you don’t want in a man.

Maybe this friend of yours although he isn’t the right guy for you still has some qualities that you might admire in the right man.
Now it is time to figure what you do want. I think it was Matts idea to actually define what your looking for by making a list.

Maybe it is my “age” speaking here but I do think at this time of my life its not ALL about looks. Whats inside counts as much as whats on the outside. Not to say that “attraction” isn’t important. However I think maybe I am attracted to different things now. And thats a good thing.

Kind Hearted. I find that very attractive. A real man can also be kind.

Confidence, I like that to. A guy comfortable in his own skin. NOT to be confused with cockiness or arrogance.

Great Sense of Humor. Important.

Honesty. Right at the top of the list.

Fun Loving. Not a couch potato but doesn’t have to be bungie jumping either in order to have a good time.

And if I ever had the feeling that he had me at “hello”…..There wouldn’t BE a second date. Because that is fairy tale love. And I’m a big girl now.

All “talk” and no “action” also speaks loud and clear to me.

See isn’t this fun? Make yourself a list. Maybe we should all make a list and compare notes!

They say that you can’t keep doing the same things and expect to get different results. I get this NOW…..
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:48pm
Matt says:

witsend:

Kindness was at the top of my list. I wondered how unique I was in this. The msn.com had an article on men and women who were getting back into dating world after being divorced. Number one on the non-negotiable list for both men and women? You got it — kindness.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 2:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Witsend: I agree=kindness.
This friend: kind, attentive, respects women but tends to think they are kinda over reactive and that irks me. He can be ‘bitchy’ too….passive/aggressive instead of just stating his case. Also; NO fun at all….a total nonparticipator…is happy living vicariously thru life…picture your mother-that is this guy in many ways…great in a down situation but zero fun in any situation- cannot even change a flat tire…can fix nothing, wrecks the riding lawmower, won’t ride a roller coaster-might blow a hair outta place etc. Wasn’t generous until I basically kicked his butt with a NC until he would pony up some fairness moneywise. He wants to marry me-but I cannot make that committment. Totally anal. You know….his work and many friends of mine are dressing up for Halloween….and he won’t do it. Might interfere with his ‘Cary Grant’ image…so I told him to go as Cary Grant. bwwwwahahahahaha!
I still go for hunks….I still like looks….blue eyes, big shoulders, ripped muscles…..*whew…..;)
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:24pm
witsend says:

Matt,
Funny because, kindness is practically a no brainer on my list. But I guess I am kind of blown away that it was number one in the article.

Hey Matt, answer me this question….If we all WANT the same things how come we have so much trouble finding each other? LOL…
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:26pm
Matt says:

witsend:

Good question. I remember when I was on match.com about 7 years ago. I came to the conclusion that there are 10 million people in NYC and exactly 10 people dating each other at any given moment. And none of them were people I wanted to be with.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:28pm
Twice Betrayed says:

amber: well, I don’t know what your guy’s issues are…I was just saying ‘a Frued’ …..you know Frued always linked problems to sexual issues. I am inclined to agree with Frued on some of this…I believe a lot of acting out on the part of these males is due to sexual issues/behavior and possibly a guilt complex even if it is deeply regressed….I believe they know right from wrong and no matter how wicked they are….it’s going to surface in some form….I feel that’s why they project a great deal on us….their behavior.
Example: a friend of mine says her hubby is now very impatient and critical of her over very minor things and it’s usually after he’s been gone for awhile….from my experience in life…[this is a younger friend and her hub] I would be looking into what he is doing. red flags for me. Also: he refused to go with her and their kids to visit her folks up north and then made a big show of regret when they came back and ….hmmmmmm….red flag. At my age and experience I am very tuned at ‘reading between the lines’.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:36pm
Twice Betrayed says:

*should be repressed not regressed
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:39pm
witsend says:

Twice Betrayed,

Well a man that needs more time in the bathroom than I do fixing his hair ain’t gonna make the cut. High maintenance is not my thing.

Hey we are all human. A hunk is a hunk. Hot is hot. We can all look and we can all flirt. But some of the BEST looking men I have ever known, got “nothin” I want. It’s ALL about them. They aren’t necessarily personality disordered. They are just players. Women love em…They know it. And they are cocky & arrogant.

Two of the things on my NO WAY, list! Lol…

In reality I don’t imagine spending the rest of my life with the biggest hunk in town.

In reality I don’t even date….So who am I kidding…!

I admit I am a sucker for blue eyes.

But I would much rather look into kind eyes right now than roaming eyes, if you know what I mean.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:43pm
witsend says:

Matt,
I to, was looking on match many years ago. And I even met a few guys for lunch. I got the feeling that they sized me up before I even sat down at the table and were like professional “daters” or something. They seemed pretty comfortable with what they were doing. Smooth operators, would come to mind to describe them.

Is there such a thing? Do people really set out to meet 20 or 30 people, and go on date after date after date?
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:53pm
Twice Betrayed says:

witsend: I know exactly what you mean-I feel the same way. And I agree on hunks/players. But, I am still attracted to them….as you say…hot is hot. *yum I keep my distance and I don’t date either for this reason and more-I am burned and I cannot risk being betrayed or hurt.
My x hub had the most beautiful blue kind eyes and was a devil. My daughter has his blue eyes and so does my gd. I read somewhere ‘blue eyes rule the world’. I can sure see why.
I hear you on a male spending more time than we do….well, this one takes an hour to an hour and half grooming and dressing. that’s my time limit and I thought I spent a lot of time…..*groan…………
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 3:58pm
Twice Betrayed says:

witsend: the answer to your question regarding men and match.com dating all those people is yes. That’s what my x was doing….many women at once. Till this one caught him on one of the dating sights. Judging by x’s nephew’s comment …it seems her sons or someone ‘forced’ the wedding. bwaahahahahaha…..sweet. maybe the ole boy got busted in his game. yes, Virginia there is a Santa Claus….;)
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 4:03pm
OxDrover says:

Well, I got a call from my “date” of a few weeks ago, he was coming bck into town and wanted to come by and see me. Had a nice talk with him, but then RED FLAG. I have a little plane for sale and he (he is a pilot) wanted to test fly it and I mentioned that I would have to get it “legal” i.e. an annual examination for safety, and INSURANCE on it (which would be about $1500+) and he said ‘Oh, you don’t have to have insurance for me.” (Well, after my husband’s crash in which the man who owned the pasture land it crashed in sued my insurance co for $50,000 for HIS EMOTIONAL PAIN AND SUFFERING I wouldn’t let that plane take off without insurance for sure!) I have always been a stickler for “doing it legal” as far as liability insurance and licenses etc. so am not going to change that NOW for sure and put everything I have at risk so this guy can take a joy ride in my plane! Nuh ugh!

As far as dating off of an internet site—nuh ugh to that too. I know there probably are some NICE folks out there who post on these sites for a date, but compare: how many stories (like on HERE) started off with a meeting on a dating site, and ended up a horror story vs how many good relationships do you know about?

Heck, my son C met the P-X-Cyber-bride on an internet site, and except for on line, e mails, and phone calls, spent almost NO time with her before she pushed him into marriage. I can name bunches of folks I personally KNOW who have met, dated and/or married these creeps all to their sorrow.

The truth is that for every single man over 35 there are about 100 or more single women, so a man who advertizes on the internet in my mind has, a high percentage of the time, “something wrong” with him that he is advertising for a date. There will of course be exceptions to this, but you know, I’m not willing to take a chance like that and bet my life on it. LOTTO ticket anyone? If you lose, you die! LOL
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 5:08pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Oxy: I don’t blame you regarding your date. Do you think he has underlying motives?
Oh boy, you are so correct on the dating sites. Heck, face it….it’s hard enough to find a good man [a feat I've never accomplished] in ‘real’ life. My daughter listed me on eharmony several years ago when my x took a powder with a teenager he trapped…and lawd, at the losers responding…tons of them. Some telling me to ‘lower my standards’. Few females ‘throw away’ a good man.. ALL of the ones I saw were ‘throw aways’ with major baggage. ugh. I got my profile off asap. And my x hub had to lure a female in from a foreign country that was desperate for citizenship and possibly running from something. [she also had lap band surgery while they were in contact as she was dangerously overweight-and she is still very ill from it-but has lost some weight....strange...he would be so cruel over any type of weight. on anyone...altho he has gained weight himself] Heck, he had to go out of the US…he sends up so many red flags now that he is aging and no longer able to wear his masks for very long. *arg….captain, I jumped ship just in time….*wipes brow.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 5:46pm
witsend says:

Oxy,
Well that sucks….But them red flags…They is, what-they-is!!!
Better a flag now than down the road.
Also good that it was a nice obvious one and not one you had to give much thought to….

Yeah, those dating sites are pretty scarey. I am almost glad that I am so cynical.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 5:51pm
skylar says:

Oxy,
have you found that pilots in general seem to be AMORAL?
I’ve met lots of pilots but only a few seemed to be really straight shooting good guys. I think the pilot-red-flag is that pilots in general are thrill seekers. Which is a red flag in itself. N/P/S’s have an inordinate need for excitement.

Please don’t think I’m lumping everyone who is a pilot or likes excitement as a P, because I’M that way too. It’s just that a nice BORING man without psychological baggage is worth his weight in gold these days.

BTW,
I love this comic strip and I’m tempted to send this to my xP.
what d’yall think?
http://assets.comics.com/dyn/s.....9.zoom.gif
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 6:05pm
OxDrover says:

Well, Skylar, if you think pilots are amoral, you’ll have to include me in that group. LOL

Many pilots (non professionals mostly) are STUPID and take chances they shouldn’t, and they usually wind up dead or injured. There are old pilots and bold pilots but few OLG & BOLD pilots. But those two PROFESSIONAL PILOTS WHO MISSED THEIR CITY and flew 150 miles past it because they were on their lap tops playing around—-there goes their careers! And RIGHTFULLY SO!!! That is worse than texting while driving! DUH! I hope they crucify them and drum them out in front of the entire world.

Pilots do tend as a group I think to be higher in risk taking than the “average” guy, but that doesn’t mean much…this guy is probably NOT a P, but he is willilng to take a RISK that is first of all ILLEGAL, and secondly, would put ME and not so much him at risk, but also himself at risk, to lose his pilot’s license if he was caught. So I don’t mess with anyone who will take UNNECESSARY CHANCES that are even slightly across the “good sense” line.

It is just with this guy that I don’t want to have anything intimate in the way of a friendship or especially a personal relationship with someone who does STUPID things and flying a plane that is NOT L:EGAL with insurance etc is a STUPID THING.

I don’t think this guy is trying to con me, his bro and father live in our small community and they are OK and he isn’t trying to steal the plane etc. in fact, the way I met him was when he came to look at the plane (it is for sale) so I didn’t meet him on a dating site. He is a widower (point for him) and has local connections (point for him) but he does actually live in another state (-1 point) but the willingness to do something STUPID and take an unnecessary chance with potential catastrophic consequences is a DEAL BREAKER for me.

The thing is now, that I don’t even HESITATE to make that a deal breaker for sure. I’m not sure he will be “back around” again, and if he does I will be polite but not encouraging in any way for a relationship other than just “polite neighbors.”
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 6:26pm
Rosa says:

OxDrover:

Remember that show in the 70’s, called “Fantasy Island”?

At the beginning of every episode, that little person, Tattoo (played by Herve Villechaize), always came running to his boss, Mr. Roarke (played by Ricardo Mantalban).

And, Tattoo would be yelling, “The plane, boss…the plane!!”

Yes. That’s what it was, OxDrover.
It was your PLANE.

Good call on your part to recognize that RED FLAG.

I still think pilots (especially fighter pilots) are TOTALLY hot and sexy.
“Top Gun” starring Tom Cruise and Val Kilmer et als. is probably my all time favorite Eye Candy movie. MEOW!!!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 6:31pm
skylar says:

Oxy,
Of course I know that you are a pilot, but I also know that you have a very strong moral code in many aspects of your life, not just legalities.
And I didn’t say the guy was immoral, I said amoral, as in, “well we can break the rules for me, can’t we?” You know, the moral code is subject to change when not convenient, that’s the kind of thing I meant.

I’m far from perfect, but I think my moral code is pretty strict. Unfortunately, I only apply it to myself and let others slip by with a pass. This is how I ended up with a P. That’s why I commented on your ability to say “heck no” to a guy that you had considered a friend with potential for more. That is a rock solid way of maintaining your boundaries, and I admire it. I’m still a floozy when it comes to boundaries. I just don’t have any. bummer for me. LOL.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 6:38pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Rosa: that is an eye candy movie….for sure. meow….*high five….
Fantasy Island….LOLOLOL!

sky: funny comic! ;P
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 7:28pm
Rosa says:

TwiceBetrayed:

I still can NOT get enough of that movie.
Tom Cruise looked SO GORGEOUS in that show, and in “Cocktail” too.

Another one that I’ve seen 300 times is “Dirty Dancing”.
I know most of the dialogue.
I walked around for weeks saying, “Nobody puts Baby in a corner” when it was first released in the 1980’s.

And, since Halloween is near, there’s nothing quite like Jack Nicholson in “The Shining”, if you want something scary.

I love movies.
When I used to have pity parties for myself, I would always watch movies and eat Chinese take-out in bed, and finish it off with a few Godiva chocolates, or anything chocolate.

It was a pity party for one, and I was the life of the party.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 7:45pm
Stargazer says:

OMG, you guys cracked me up tonight!
Henry, since when did YOU get a skillet? ha ha ha ha ha Did you earn one after a year’s membership at LF? If so, WHERE’S MINE? Is Oxy playing favorites? I want a skillet too! ha ha ha ha

And sky, FWB = friend with battery? ha ha ha ha ha I really needed the laugh. I always thought he was BOB (battery operated boyfriend).

Amber, you are doing GREAT to be on the healing path at such a young age. I suffered through depression in my 20’s, even though I did all these exciting things. It’s all a journey but I’ve found the advanced years bring more gentleness and self acceptance with myself. I think in a few years, you will look back at this time and feel like a different person. Be very very gentle with yourself and give yourself a very wide berth. When most people have giant egos that they need to tone down, people like us don’t think nearly as highly of ourselves as we should.

So I have this knot in my stomach I had all last week and feeling really yucky. It has something to do with the boy and my self esteem and all those core issues. I am going to meditate tonight and see if I can actually face the horrible feelings. I do believe that when we can name something, we can have power over it. So instead of running away from the unnamable black hole I sometimes feel, I am going into the center of it to see what it’s about. Wish me luck.

I will check back soon.

Love,
Star
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:07pm
Stargazer says:

Oh, and I just wanted to blog about some things that happened at work today. Some of the other staff assistants also showed up in the blizzard but their supervisor didn’t come in. The girls were bitching and griping that he wasn’t there but they had to come in. Why couldn’t they work at home and get paid for it, blah, blah, blah. They were allowed to stay home and use paid time off. But they didn’t want to use their paid time off. So they bitched and griped. As I listened, I thought how very entitled they seemed to me. My supervisor also did not make it in. It didn’t bother me in the least! I felt grateful to have a quiet day to get stuff done, or to goof off, whatever I wanted to do at work today.

Then one of the girls proceeded to bitch and gripe about her supervisor and how she’s unhappy at her job because he does not give her the mentoring she needs. I didn’t even know how to respond. If only she knew how easy we have it there. Her boss is so flexible with her–he lets her do whatever she wants. All she does is bitch and gripe. I don’t understand it. I feel grateful for every little thing I have. Even though I’m grossly underemployed there and often hate the job, I am always grateful for the circumstances, and to even have a stable job. Young people today just seem SO entitled. I don’t get it at all. It’s like they think life should just be handed to them on a silver platter.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:12pm
Isabell says:

Star…

Wow. You call it the “black hole” too. What perspective you have, “When we can name something,we can have power over it.”

All these years, whenever I feel out of control, I’ve said…”I feel like I’m slipping back, or I’m being sucked into the black hole.” Gaslighting comes to mind; the feelings of being lost, confused, overwhelmed and unable to get a grip of reality. Hmmm…

So, give it a name, huh… give it a name. Much to ponder.

Thanks.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:21pm
henry says:

Hmmm That 27 year old on a silver platter would be nice –STAR~~~~!!~!!
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:22pm
henry says:

isabell – I refer to my 3 year vacation from hell relationship with my xS as The Twilight Zone – I am still trying to figure out what the plot was all about…..it’s comforting to know that here I am understood.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:26pm
amber says:

twicebetrayed…yes I understand what you’re saying. I don’t think he was sexually absued, but I do know at a very young age his aunt was watching him and he wouldn’t stop crying and she took and not clothes IRON and put it across his legs. He had huge scars from it. And I know his mom used to beat the shit out of him. And when he was about 20 he proposed to a girl and she took off never to be seen again. I honestly think that 3 of the most important women hurt him so bad from a young age that the rest of his life has been spent resenting women. He had huge behavioral issues when he was a child. And maybe he doesn’t realize it, but I think he takes his frustration and anger for his mother out on whoever the victim is at the time. I know he knew the difference between right and wrong. I just don’t think he’s ever dealt with those issues and subconsciously he’s never allowed another women to get close to him because he’s afraid they’re going to hurt him too. He always told me from very early on that he had abandonment issues..I know why! I think this may be the root of his problem. I just wish he could have figured it out, maybe he wouldn’t have turned into such a rotten person. I’m pretty objective and able to read between the lines pretty well, and even when I could decifer he was doing something wrong, I turned my head. Uggghhhh…but that was then. Let him take his agression for his mom and aunt out on someone else.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:35pm
skylar says:

Hi Amber,
they ALL have abandonment issues. It probably stems from parental abandonment but I also get the impression of a little boy, left behind sitting alone in the sandbox. No one wants to play with him anymore. The other kids grew up and lost interest in his childish games. He waits for the next child to come along, hoping that he can lure them into the sandbox and trap them, so that they can’t leave him. He hates change,
he doesn’t want to grow up. People change, people grow up and abandon him. He won’t let them leave him anymore.
He’ll make them stay. With his charm, his pity ploy, his rage and his wild stories of adventure and intrigue.
He’ll make them sorry that they tried to leave.

My xP actually told me he never wanted to grow up, he hates change, and he thinks growing up means you get a wife and she leaves you.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:44pm
amber says:

And thanks star..I think I’m doing pretty ok too! I’ve always been a really positive person and have lots to be thankfulk for. Great family, amazing friends, smartest little puppy in the world, and school is keeping me busy. I literallly will not let myself down that way ever again. I know I will look back someday and know that I’m a better person because of it. Thanks for the compliment!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:47pm
Stargazer says:

Isabell,
A book just came to mind that I thought might interest people here. It’s called “Personal Power Through Awareness”.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:51pm
amber says:

Skylar, I love the anaolgy of the child in the playbox. That was my ex. He cheated on me with a 19 year old girl and she even said…he’s like a little boy trapped in a 40 yr old mans body. So true. In fact he lied to me about his age for the first 8 months that we dated. I figued it out when he left his ID out and I saw it. I mean how stupid?!?! Lie about your age?? The year before he turned 40 really kicked his ass. That’s when things all took a turn for the worse. Bought some stupid crotch rocket motorcycle and crashed it 3 times in one year. Would tell me how he was go 130 MPH..and I was like do you think this impresses me? Just such wreckless behavior, so juvenille. It was like he wanted to get out there and be as rebelious and childish as he could, or he was going to turn into a pumpkin on his bday. Just lots of silly, childish and irratic behavior. Whatever I hope you fall off the motorcycle at 130 MPH…do the world a favor.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:53pm
Stargazer says:

LOL Henry, I could send the 27 y.o.’s to you when I’m done with them! ha ha ha ha
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:54pm
Stargazer says:

P.S. Obviously I am procrastinating meditating. I do that a lot.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 8:56pm
skylar says:

hi Star, me too.
I’ve procrastinated fixing my desktop computer for days. I need to put 2 old hard drives from the old computer into it and I just can’t seem to get motivated.
I know that there will be a glitch and I will get frustrated and I’ll have to rack my ever diminishing brain power to figure out why it isn’t working. so I procrastinate.

I already put in a new desk and added a sound card and a PCI wireless adapter. Why can’t I face these hard drives?
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:05pm
Stargazer says:

Sky,
You need to face the hard, driving truth about these hard drives and all their dark secrets. For all their utility in our lives, they are not capable of love and compassion. They will not offer to cook you dinner. They won’t rub your feet. Hell, they won’t even ask you how your day was. I don’t blame you for running from them. They are cold, mechanical creatures with only one mission in life, and that mission is..uh…hell….I have know idea what that mission is!!! I barely know what a hard drive is. ha ha ha ha ROF! I just cracked myself up!!!!!!

The internet is such a great place to procrastinate, isn’t it? I don’t want to go meditate because I’m such an extrovert and love hanging with my friends. But I know I need to.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:19pm
skylar says:

Lol, you kill me, Star, thanks for the giggle.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:27pm
notagain says:

Why? I’m asking that too. IT has been three years, and three weeks ago, I finally got him out for good. Now I am with in a months time of going to the homeless shelter with my kids if I can’t make a few thousand extra dollars.

The things he did during the course of our relationship always left me questioning himself…and then myself? Where was I going wrong? Was I really too stern? Bitchy? Was asking him to keep his word about things asking too much?

1. He defrauded my taxes – I’m paying that back.
2. Didn’t pay a bill for months on end, and didn’t look for a job. When I left him and asked him about helping to catch up with these bills he helped accumulate, he said “Those are bills you would have had even if I was living here anyway? ” WTF?
3. I helped him by gicing him a small business loan to start a hotdog cart. After he got that built, he started drinking again, knowing I would leave him for this. Now he is shacked up in tennessee with a woman he says is his friend, living off of her. I live in Maine.
4. He had smacked my kid acrossed the face and said I don’t discipline my kids.
5. He threw a dirty toilet seat on my sleeping sons bed at 6:00 AM, because he supposedly got pee on it the night He can be furious for a second, and the next second act like nothing ever happened.
6. He worries about external things like they are his life blood…if someone is mad at him, he simply cannot understand its becaue he broke another promise.

So now, we are keeping in touch over e-mail….simply because I am waiting for him to pay back my load to him of 1500 dollars before my family becomes homeless….but I need help here.

I have so much anger in me, that I keep replying to him of why our relationship didn’t work out.

He replies back, that I am self-righteous, confused, and having a pitty party.
I have replied with some pretty sarcastic remarks and I hate it. I’m not like this normally, but it is driving me crazy that he can’t see why, or understand why, we couldn’t work out! I need to cut him off but I need my money too! And I don’t have a good word left to say to him…I’m not in that forgiveness stage right now. I wish i was.

ultimately he has accused me of not trying hard enough in the relationship. Not supporting him enough with his goals and hobbies or his abilities.

Did anyone else go threw that? Trying to get them to see the wreckage they have left until you were blue in the entire body….but they just project it on to you like you did everything wrong. I just want to be able to cut myself off emotionally, instead of thinking about all the damage he has done in my home….

Its crazy, because when he writes to me, he calls me beautiful and still talks about how he wants me to come visit him, like nothing ever happened and that well be best friends forever, but he has this fantasy of us getting back together someday….which I won’t…but I need my money back soon.

Help!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:32pm
Stargazer says:

Notagain,
One thing, staying in contact with him is like injecting poison into your system. It’s draining you of the energy you could use to earn some of that money. I haven’t been in quite the same situation you’re in. But knowing what I know about sociopaths, I’d opt for the homeless shelter. At least you will have him out of your life.

However, if you feel it’s worth it to hold out for money from him, you absolutely cannot let his games affect you. You need to be very cold and businesslike and not react to what he says or does. You have to be able to put up some sort of emotional wall. This is hard because every time he contacts you, it triggers you. That’s why the sooner you can break all contact with him, the better. You may get money out of him but at what cost?
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:40pm
amber says:

Notagain, I’m sorry to hear what you’re going through..but honestly?? Do you really think you’re going to get the money out of him??? Has he ever repaid you any of the money he owed you in the last 3 years that you haven’t seen him?? If not, then I would say cut your losses and figure out a more productive way to get that money instead of wasting time trying to get it out of him. It’s a tough situation. One that I’ve never been faced with, but you have to realize that this is what they do. I think him being nice is a pathetic attempt to do the bare minimum to keep you around in case this new woman bails and he needs to come back to take advantage of you. He’s living with another woman, smacked your kid, stole money from you…I don’t know..do you have family or friends you can go to??
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 9:55pm
henry says:

Notagain – I am so sorry, your situation seems so bleak. You described a classic sociopath. You will never get the money. You must never ever ever speak to this man again or let him near you or your children. Next time he may kill your son for peeing on the toilet seat. I cringe at what emotional damage that may have already happened to your son at the hands of this physco. A family becomes homeless every few minutes in todays economy. Sorry if I seem harsh but find another way. Your life is in danger every time you speak to this man, even from a distance he is dangerous.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 10:23pm
skylar says:

notagain, I’m so sorry for the pain you are experiencing.
If you live in WA state you can live in my abandoned house.

Other than that, you need to understand what you are dealing with or you will never escape it. Everything you said is typical. He isn’t playing the same game you are. He’s only pretending to. His game is : suck the emotions out of notagain until she dies. Then laugh.

Get it? Don’t give him emotions. no response is the best response for now.
The only way to get your money back is to make him think you don’t need it. If he thinks that you just inherited or earned a sizable chunk of money, he will come back to suck it from you. He will even repay the $1500 while he pretends to love you and sucks more money from you. That’s what my xP did. At this point you aren’t informed or stoic enough to pull off that kind of acting. so I don’t recommend it. Focus first on surviving and second on learning this personality disorder until you know it like the back of your hand and then KEEP LEARNING. Go to the library and get books. You will be empowered to win against this disease and you will have protection from all the P’s out there.

Good luck, we are here to help you.
(((hug)))
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 10:44pm
notagain says:

no no…its okay…I want to and need to hear the truth, that I shouldn’t even speak to him.

Thankyou all three of you above…:)

I need the clarification, because for a while, my emotions have been over riding my logic. He is good at knowing how to get in the door emotionally and physically. He knows my weaknesses very well.

I’m trying not to think about him, but it keeps creeping up…and I feel like he is gaining control by getting me upset. I need that control of my own life back. It has been a rollercoaster ride, that I need to get off of.

Thats why this post really caught my eye. I have to find meaning in what happened…I think I will be stronger for it, once we get through this. I never have been too good with boundaries…Thats where I need to start I think. I worry too much about other people, and forget about myself…but it turns out wrong in the end….because thats not a healthy way for me too be. People like him can see it…:(

Henry, when you say he is a classic sociopath, that is how I feel. Not the killer or the outright wife beater kind, but the passive aggressive kind…the covert kind, the extremely manipulative kind. Ive been reading on this site for about a year now. There are so many things that make sense to me here.

How he can show a spark of violence in his eyes for two seconds, and regain posture in two seconds. How he changes his behavior once you trust him again. How he projects what he is doing to you, on to you. He uses twisted logic to over ride even basic common sense….and believes it.

He can justify outright neglect. He can excuse poor behavior. Another sign, is he could care less about his family. He destest his mother. He has two boys he hardly sees, in fact he left the state without even saying goobye to them. The last time he saw his oldest son, he went out and got drunk with his buddies, leaving his poor kid with me…who wanted to be with him, which broke my heart.

The money I lent him to build his hotdog cart, he acted and boasted like he did it all by himself.

I wouldn’t even doubt if he is the one who burnt his own house down to collect insurance money, which he blew on cocaine and entertainment….when he was supposesd to be building another home….this is where I thought he was just having a tough time, because he lost everything.

Then he talked about taking life insurance for me, in case he died. All I could think about, is that I would have to let him also take out life insurance on me. This talk came out of the blue. we are not even married.

Other things I noticed, is that he would say he hated drama….but would associate with the most disturbed people you could find in town. Drunks, druggies, bar hoppers, womanizers…losers basically. he admitted that it was entertainment, and spent thousands of dollars on getting the people around him drunk. but would accuse me of creating the drama.

I got pregnant with his child. He escalated his drinking four fold, started leaving me, and then stayed at his buddies houses because “i was upset about his drinking, he was supposed to be looking for work, and he didn’t want to fight.” Ya right..
I would never do something like this, but I saw life as it would be over, and got an abortion out of desperation….ofcourse that was my fault too…because if I had just a little more faith in him, things would have gotten better. But I was running out of time, and the stress was making me incrediablly sick…don’t know if I could have made it through that pregnancy. I really havent been me, since that point.

Promise after promise was broken, and when he got what he wanted, the hotdog cart, he had no bones about leaving the state with it. My family told me this would happen…but no, i fell for his, “just hold on and things will get better crap.”

I’m just ranting here, so I don’t rant to him, next time he tries to get to me through e-mail.

Thanks everyone here for all there input, and experience. It is helping me alot…
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 11:05pm
skylar says:

notagain,
he’s your classic parasite. I wish we could just use Rid-X or something like you do for lice. The more you learn the easier it will be for you. Knowing replaces feeling. Your reactions will start from knowledge instead of from emotion. It gets better.
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Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 11:11pm
amber says:

Notagain..you can only detatch from him emotionally by letting go of all contact with him. He will never change and will continue to move on, sucking the life out of everything he comes in contact with. Change your email address and move on. Any time you feel the urge to talk to him, come here and write the email instead. I promise it will gve you time to clear your head and make a more educated decision. We’re here for you.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 29 October 2009 @ 11:17pm
ErinBrock says:

Notagain:
Heres the best and ONLY way your gonna get your money……
The offer stands:
On your way to WA state to stay at Skylars place……stop by my house and we can have a YARD DIG UP PARTY…..we could dig up my whole damn town looking for that million dollars in cash the ex buried……
In fact maybe we can have a LF retreat and we can all dig……
Just think how much good could come if we all found this money!

Reality……harsh, cold truth….your gonna have to figure out something else…some other way to get by…..
If lighting strikes him and he does happen to throw your money your way……BONUS…..
But I would, in NO way plan on it.
We have all been there…..and unless you have an asset of his….you will never see the dough.

Do NOT have any more contact with him….you need to stop wasting your precious time hoping and start living and developing a game plan for YOU!

Good luck darling!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:02am
henry says:

notagain – at first when I came here I was told to go No contact with ny X – it went against every thing I wanted – that was the last thing I wanted to do – I am a big guy – 6′ 180 – landscpaer – hanging on to hope and wanting to believe he loved me was slow suicide or slow murder on his part – i lost 30 pounds – couldnt work – I shook with anxiety – the hyper vigilance was overwhelming – i couldnt sleep – my hip went numb and I could varely walk – stress – do u here me STRESS – has been 18 months no contact – and yes he still occupies a small part of me ( prolly always will) but No Contact is our only revenge and our ultimate salvation.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:05am
ErinBrock says:

To add to Henry’s post…..
My story of stress almost KILLED ME…..Girl….I spent 28 years with the S…….1 ONE month after I finally booted him….I had 2 strokes, a disected carotid artery and then CANCER! (and NO i’m NOT an old lady….I was 39 years old)
HEEELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOO.
My medical bills amounted to 465K……and years off work, destroyed business, foreclosure…….therapist bills for me and kids…..SHALL I CONTINUE???

SO girl……how does that 1500 sound now?
I would consider that payment for the education you are recieving and will continue to gain…..PRICELESS REALLY!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:11am
Stargazer says:

A battery operated skillet that turns into a vibrator. I think we may be onto something. This would be especially useful for people who live in very small spaces and just don’t have a lot of room to store stuff. The vibrating function would also work very well for stir frying. I call dibs on the patent!!!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:30am
Stargazer says:

Oops, I think I just posted that on the wrong blog. LOL Sorry
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:32am
ErinBrock says:

YEAH…..and it can be made out of that new silicone oven proof material! You know the plyable stuff……soft and squishy, yet keeps a form for baking!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:33am
Stargazer says:

No cutting in on my patent, EB!! In my vision, it is made out of cast iron, even though that’s probably mechanically impossible. ROF ha ha ha ha
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:35am
ErinBrock says:

Thanks but…….cast iron…..???????
Dude….I’m so gonna run right over you to the patent office!

CAST IRON?????

(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:40am
henry says:

cast iron gets rusty – mite cause an infection
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:42am
amber says:

PAHAHAHAHAH!!!! EB..the silicone proof material!!! I don’t know if I want to bake muffins with my new massaging skillet with mutilple uses. LOL so hard!!!! You guys crack me up!!!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:46am
ErinBrock says:

And not to mention the battery acid leaking out from wherever Star decides the batteries are going, eating the cast iron……
I see a destiny filled with a GYNO visits!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:47am
Stargazer says:

Hey!!!! It’s MY skillet!!! I designed it!!! I say it will be made from cast iron! And it will come with a lifetime warranty. Only cast iron is strong enough to withstand a lifetime of use.
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

And it’s still strong enough for hitting someone over the head with it.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:49am
Stargazer says:

Seriously, you can’t hit someone over the head with a silicone skillet. ROF
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:49am
ErinBrock says:

See ya at the GYNO girly!

Let me know when you get that prototype out huh!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:50am
ErinBrock says:

Sure you can…..make it the ultra delux model….with like 12 D batteries…..
Ya ever feel the weight of 12 D batteries……
the WOW factor!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:52am
amber says:

Ohhhhh I don’t know about the cast iron… soooo cold?!??!!… and lets just say my area is already rusty due to lack of attention..I don’t know if throwing a rusty iron skillet in the mix is the best idea. And EB!!! Did you have to throw battery acid in?!?!?!? REALLY?!?!?! This sounds like a recipe for diasaster..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:55am
ErinBrock says:

Amber….totally……I think we just need to find star a date!
And a bit of silicone…..warm out of the oven!

ever tried rustolium lube?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:57am
amber says:

HAHAHAHHHAHAHA!!! No you didn’t just say RUSTOLIUM!!!!! Dude..I’m cracking up right now.. thanks guys..I needed a good laugh…and If ya’ll ever need a good silocone product (I don’t think they make cast iron yet….star you may wanna get on that patent) at discount prices DEARLADY.COM is the place to go!!! You can thank me later
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:02am
ErinBrock says:

How about you bring the party favors huh?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:03am
henry says:

I am going to bed b4 this gets out of control.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:05am
amber says:

Awwwww…poor henry…we scared him away with V talk…good night henry. Hope we didn’t traumatize you.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:11am
ErinBrock says:

Too late Henry…..
good night sweat dreams…or sweet dreams…whichever comes first my dear!
XXOO
EB
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:20am
OxDrover says:

I’m sittring here in my “old mother Hubbard” costume, looking like a “fat German Housewife” from 1840 waitin\ gon my son to get ready to go to a middle school to put on a historical presentation for the little lkiddies in the FREAKING RAIN! Did I say it is RAINING again and haven’t seen the sun in a week or more and I come on here and you guys are trying to steal my SKILLET! Sheesh, you guys are too too much.

I can’t even visualize that “patented” multi-purpose skillet. Mine just cooks and boinks, and yes, rusts if you don’t wash it and season it right.

Thanks for the chuckles though, guys, with all this FREAKING RAIN, did I say it is RAINING today? Oh, Yea, I did, any way you guys have a good day and help NOTAGAIN maintain for the day! I’lll see you guys this evening if I am not too tired!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:53am
Stargazer says:

Oxy, do NOT bring your skillet out in the rain! It will rust, as we have been discussing on several blogs. ha ha ha
I envy your rain. We have had blizzard conditions here for the last few days. I don’t even know if I’ll be able to get my car out of the parking lot today. I really wish we could see a picture of you in your costume. Heck I wish we could see pictures of members, period.

BTW, the batteries go in the handle. It’s really the only place they could go.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:41am
henry says:

Star – Wouldnt one of the side effect’s of your skillet invention be bowl-leggedness?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 12:54pm
skylar says:

Henry, it’s a pocket sized skillet! For, um, you know – traveling.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:19pm
Stargazer says:

LOL! And did I mention, the handle folds up to make it portable?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:31pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Holy crud, Batman…..you guys rocked last night after I went to watch old movies [I have always loved the old classics....I went to watch To Catch a Thief with Cary Grant and Grace Kelly-hey speaking of that....did you notice how Cary Grant slapped a young woman in that film and how other things in it had subliminal meaning? Course most films do....]

Wow….skillets, pot and fortune telling. bwahahahaha!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:43pm
ErinBrock says:

Hey Henry…..
Have fun with Dionne tonight huh…..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 2:26pm
witsend says:

Twice Betrayed,
These guys gave NEW meaning to Oxys skillet last night.

I feel bad for the next person who gets a boink! We will have all kinds of visuals from now on about the new and improved model.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:19pm
Stayingsane says:

How will I trust a relationship with a man again? is it even something to aspire to anymore?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:32pm
Twice Betrayed says:

witsend:I will never view that skillet the same again. I guess this one hides under the bed in a very discreet box. bwaahahahahaaaaa!
Stayingsane: Not for me…..is isn’t. I see no matter how good they are……those eyes are wandering …..I cannot handle even that much…nope, I am afraid I’m done…..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 5:12pm
Twice Betrayed says:

Everytime I watch Cinderella, Snow White or Sleeping Beauty with my little gd….I cannot help but add in my mind…..and they lived happily ever after till he began cheating on her midlife with the upstairs maid……*ugh.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 5:15pm
ErinBrock says:

Ladies…
Please keep love in your heart and faith in your soul…..
And….. a silicone skillet under your bed!!!

(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:07pm
OxDrover says:

You guys are BAAAAAAAD!\

Son D and I had a great time today, he wore my new Montana Peak western hat, and his new knee high buffalo skin boots, and gosh he looked great. The tan in the hat is the exact color of his slightly red beard and he just looked so great! I wish one of you had a nice daughter to marry him off to! So I could get some grandkids! LOL

We had a great time and the kids loved the program though we did it inside a gym, with the two baby goats on a leash each (which they did not like) and the dog so disappointed he could not really herd them, but he did his tricks for the kids and you would think those 5th graders had never seen a dog before! he was, as always, a HIT!

I’m taking him (or plan to anyway) to be certified as a therapy dog in a couple of weeks. He will do wonderfully.

Unfortunately today he had “wet dog” smell that in closer quarters would have been stupifying! LOL but the kids loved him and the goats tolerated everything so it was a great day!

At the end, the sun peaked out and we will ahve at least (they say) 3 days of sunshine! Brightens my life!

The flooding and storms in AR last night though were terrible and we crossed over a FREWAY that was closed due to floodign! Bad weather, but at least not blizzards! So there is something to be thankful for.

It is a good thing though that I didn’t take the skillet, as there were two little monsters in the classes that I would have BOINKED! I handled it though, by just stopping the presentation and looking at them til I caught there eyes and then said, “Whatever it is you are talking about, I wish you would share with the rest of us” that usually shuts them up.

The other one was one that yelled out to distract the dog during his presentation. I just looked at him with my best “drop dead you little monster” look and he almost literally melted. I DO have a piercing look (my kids say it can turn you to a pillar of salt!) LOL

I can see though, that while I was gone and you guys knew I was gone that YOU ALL really misbehaved again, so I need to stay around here to keep the ADULTS in line! LOL ((((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:53pm
amber says:

OX..What kind of doggie do you have?? You said herding and tricks. I have a Border Collie that’s 10 months old. And LOOOOOVVVEEEE her to death. I love how smart she is and all the tricks she can already do!! A couple nights ago I taught her how to bring me a blanket!!! It’s finally getting a little chilly in CA and I thought I’d see if she’d actually do it..and she does!! All I have to say is go get mama a blanket and she drags one over to me. Beyond cute. She has really been my saving grace. As soon as me and the ex broke up I had to do something to occupy my time with a positive outcome. She keeps me busy and happy!!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:06pm
ErinBrock says:

Oxy:
I could never marry your son, it wouldn’t be fair to you……I think I would give you too much anxiety! I’m a handful…….
Plus…..if you came home to 12 missing D batteries, you would know exactly what I would have been up to in your absence.

Glad you had a nice day and you are seeing some sun! I can picture your glare…..and just shutting the monsters down.

You are a wonderful woman…..as much hell as I give you!

(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:14pm
OxDrover says:

Thank you Erin! Yea, I’m afraid I would be the MIL from HELL, if you don’t believe that, just x my X-DIL the P! She says I am a “real piece of work” LOL ROTFLMAO Yea, for her I would be, I was On to her from day 1–just didn’t realize HOW twisted she was! It never occured to me she would try to MURDER my son! It’s probably a good thing for HER that I didn’t suspect or know just how twisted she was, she might have been the one calling the cops to get me off her with my skillet!

You go right on giving me heck, Erin! That’s a two way street! LOL

Yes, Amber, he is a Border collie, I give herding demos and tell the kids about the kind of dog, and do a ‘dog and pony” (or dog and goat) show–you’d think the kids had never seen a dog the way they love it. he does too. He eats up the attention. Plus, it is a little bit of extra money and I love the kids.

Keep teaching her stuff Amber, if you can imagine it, she can learn it and if they are not challenged they can become neurotic and/or destructive, don’t let her get bored! They can learn up to 200 word commands and you start to think they can read your mind. I have a bumper sticker that says “My border collie is smarter than your honor student” LOL and I think they are. I no longer breed or train outside dogs, but I have my one baby! He is a great tool on the farm too with livestock.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:45pm
geminigirl says:

You guys are shameless and a HOOT!!! A vibrating fold up skillet, LOL!!Sound great to me!And rustolium Lube!! remind me of this couple of swimming fanatics here in Oz,he won “Iron Man ” contest,and she was “Iron Woman” , When her baby was due, there wasa joke going around that all they needed to do was suck the baby out witha giant magnet!!LOL!!
I laughed so hard I need to replace my panty liner, LOL!!
Gem.XX
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:50pm
geminigirl says:

If you took this skillet overseas, how would you describe it to the customs officer?LOL!! Gem.XX
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:51pm
geminigirl says:

Ps the iron couple called the baby boy Jett. {true] . I guess it was jet propelled!!Gem.XX
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:55pm
skylar says:

Geminigirl, what kind of question is that?
Isn’t it obvious? Just say it’s for one egg, over easy.
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:57pm
skylar says:

Oxy, I have an idea for a better bumpersticker:
My border collie is smarter than your psychopath!
Or
My cat is smarter than your sociopath!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:59pm
amber says:

AWWW OX!!! How lucky are we to experience the joy of a border collie!! This is my second one. My last dog was such a joy and SOOOOOO smart that I knew I had to have another!! And yes I totally believe that they can read your mind! They are like humans!! I love that bumper sticker!! I so want one!!

Yes, I know they can be challenging, but I think that’s exactly what I needed!! I figured she’d keep me so busy that I woulnd’t have time to think about my ex. 2 of my best friends got puppies at the same time. (none of us have kids) so we get them together for play dates and it’s so much fun to watch her having a blast. She’s already learned about 12 tricks and I love taking her to the beach and playing frisbee with her!! I’m going to try and teach her as much as I possibly can!! She makes me proud when she learns a new trick! I feel like I’ve done something constructive. She’s just been an absolute joy. There’s a place near by that does sheep herding so I think I’m going to take her and see how she does!

It’s great that you have yours and he’s actually bringing you some $$$$. Good for you!!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:01pm
OxDrover says:

Guys, Gem is right, you are all SHAMELESS! LOL ROTFLMAO

Rustolium lube! Priceless!
(Report abusive comment)

Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:04pm
Stargazer says:

Funny, I have always wanted a bumper sticker that says “My boa could eat your honor student.” But it might raise too many eyebrows of snake-haters in the community. lol

Of course a boa could not really eat a person.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 9:27pm
Stargazer says:

Which historical figure was it that said, “Walk softly and carry a big skillet”?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 9:28pm
skylar says:

Aunt Jemima?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:04pm
shabbychic says:

LMAO! Perfect!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:14pm
henry says:

Just got home from seeing Dionne – she was fabulous – but she cant hit the high notes like she used too. She looked awesome – What the World Needs Now is Love Sweet Love~~!!! And a friend of a friend is playing match maker and trying to hook me up with a guy named Phil —dunno about this…
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:07pm
witsend says:

henry,
Gosh what is it about movie stars and singers, even when they are old they look fabulous? Dionne has to be getting up there!

Is Phil someone you know of? Or someone you have never met before?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:30pm
henry says:

Hi Wit – I am sure Dionne has had some help keeping her looks. Hint Hint…But fame is fleeting as I went to a Casino to see her. I guess the girl still has to work to pay for her villa in Brazil…Never met this Phil guy,, A lady showed up at my friends house today and she said he looked and acted just like me. He is 58 gay – employed and has grandkids he adores and a great relationship with his X wife..so I dont know if anything will ever come of it. Wit I responded to you on the other thread a few nites ago.. the thread about (may contain triggers.) not sure if u saw it or not.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:46pm
shabbychic says:

henry, I love Dionne! Walk On By! Concerts are so much fun to go to, glad you had a good time!!! Did you meet Phil?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:47pm
henry says:

hi Shabby nope have not met him..I have never had a blind date.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:10am
skylar says:

Here’s an excerpt from an online article.
It seems to show that some chimps can be parasitical sociopaths too. But it doesn’t work out well for them in the end.

Witsend, somehow it reminds me of your situation with your parasitical son.

http://www.howardbloom.net/lucifer/excerpt2.html
The cutting of the ties that bind can be fatal even in the wild. Jane Goodall, the researcher who has studied chimpanzees in the Gombe game preserve of Africa since 1960, saw the principle at work in a young animal named Flint. When Flint was born, his mother adored him. And he, in turn, doted on her. She hugged him, played with him, and tickled him until his tiny, wrinkled face broke out in the broad equivalent of a chimpanzee smile. The two were inseparable.

When Flint reached the age of three, however, the time came for his mother to wean him. But Flo, the mother, was old and weak. And Flint, the chimpanzee child, was young and strong. Flo turned her back and tried to keep her son away from the nipple. But Flint flew into wild tantrums, lashed about violently on the ground, and ran off screaming. Finally, a worried Flo was forced to calm her son by offering him her breast. Later, Flint developed even more aggressive techniques for ensuring his supply of mother’s milk. If Flo tried to shrug him off, Flint struck her with his fists, and punctuated the pummeling with sharp bites.

At an age when other chimps have freed themselves from parental apron strings, Flint was still acting like a baby. Though he was a strapping young lad, and his mother was increasingly feeble, Flint insisted that his mama carry him everywhere. If Flo stopped to rest and Flint was anxious to taste the fruit of the trees at their next destination, the hulking child would push, prod and whimper to get his mom moving again. Then he’d climb on her back and enjoy the ride. When shoves and whines didn’t motivate his mother to pick him up and cart him where he wanted to go, Flint would occasionally give the exhausted lady a strong kick. At night, Flint was old enough to build a sleeping nest of his own. Instead, he insisted on climbing into bed with his mommy.

Flint should have turned his attention from Flo to the other chimps his age, forging ties to the superorganism–the chimpanzee tribe–of which he was a part. But he did not. The consequence would be devastating.

Flint’s mother died. Theoretically, Flint’s instincts should have urged him to survive. But three weeks later, he went back to the spot where his mother had breathed her last and curled up in a fetal ball. Within a few days, he too was dead.

An autopsy revealed that there was nothing physically wrong with Flint: no infection, no disease, no handicap. In all probability, the youngster’s death had been caused by the simian equivalent of that voice which tells humans going through a similar loss that there’s nothing left to live for. Flint had been cut loose from his single bond to the superorganism. That separation had killed him.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:17am
witsend says:

henry,
I think I did see your reply if it was when I asked about your X and the attempted suicides?

Whenever we step out of our comfort zone it can be a little frightening. And blind dates could be considered such.
It would be maybe easier to meet at a “common” friends home at a gathering where other people are there and you would be able to ease into conversation and be comfortable.

The part you said about him still having a great relationship with his X wife is wonderful news! Employed is good news And adoring his grandkids is the best of all.

Maybe he is worth meeting….Maybe he is kind hearted to!
That is my number one criteria in a man. KINDNESS.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:48am
ErinBrock says:

HEEEENNNNRRRYYYYYY……..
Listen…..dating blind men is not all that bad!
Nice blindmen are better…..

So…..this guy sounds like an option to get you off the property for at least a night out?
AND he’s GAY……what more can you ask for???

Think of all the help you could have around the property cutting wood, raking leaves with a brady bunch of grandkids visiting….

Come on Hens…..don’t be chicken noodle! It could very possible turn into an IRS write off…..a medical expense….
Ya remember….SEXUAL THERAPY!
If not….you know who’all be here waiting to dust you off……ME!

I SAY DO IT!!! Have dinner!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 11:09am
witsend says:

skylar,
I think the monkey story is so sad. I can’t even really comprehend it today.

I am feeling really sad today. Defeated.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 11:37am
Rosa says:

Henry:

We (and I really mean YOU) have a potential blind date situation here with a man named PHIL???

I don’t like the fact that it is a “friend of a friend” trying to make this connection for you. From my own experience, friends seldom get it right when trying to fix me up with blind dates.
So, when a “friend of a friend” is trying to work their magic, it could be a disaster.

My advice is that you initially meet this Phil guy for coffee, or lunch…something during daylight hours.
Daytime first meetings are less threatening, and they are also shorter in duration.
That way, if there is no attraction/connection, you can have lunch and get out of there without too much time wasted or awkwardness.

If you meet him for lunch and decide that you really like him, and the feeling is mutual, then you can go ahead and make a second date to have dinner together.

That’s how I would do it, if I were in your shoes.
It’s best to enter a blind date situation with NO EXPECTATIONS and an OPEN MIND.
Hopefully, at the very least, you will meet a new friend.

Good Luck, Henry.

**Did you know that Dionne Warwick is Whitney Houston’s cousin?? Anyway, that’s just a little trivia nugget about Dionne Warwick, and I am sure it all leads back to Kevin Bacon, somehow. Right???
Isn’t everything supposed to lead back to Kevin Bacon???
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:11pm
Easy says:

Henry

Potential prospect! expect nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that way there is no disapointment! No funny buisness! Look inside this person for real true interest in you! If ya want a fling they are a dime a dozen. If ya want a relationship they are rare as , shooting stars! IMHO! The only person we fool is our selves! Love ya Henry!
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:32pm
Rosa says:

I hope Dionne sang this one:

……Keep smiling, keep shining, knowing you can always count on me, for sure.
That’s what friends are for.
For good times and bad times, I’ll be on your side forever more.
That’s what friends are for.

~Performed by Dionne Warwick, Gladys Knight, & Stevie Wonder (1985)
~Lyrics: Elton John
~Written by: Bacharach
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 12:36pm
shabbychic says:

skylar, I wonder if the mother chimp had been strong enough to push Flint off… if it would have had a completely different ending… but why didn’t he grow up? Interesting & sad.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 1:04pm
skylar says:

Witsend, sorry you’re sad. I didn’t mean to upset you. I’m just always investigating the root of this disorder and thought this article had some insight.

SC, that’s what I wonder too. Is the parasitical monkey already that way or did her acquiescense create the situation?
How long would he have raged if she ignored him.
After she died, could other monkeys have become his “supply”?
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:34pm
Isabell says:

Skylar,

Interesting article about the chimps.

When I did an analysis of similar traits, and life circumstances that each of my (3) ex N/S/P’s had in common, I was surprised to find that all three had unhealthy attatchments and dependancies on their Mother’s, and, at the same time, expressed a loathing, and hatred for their mothers.

Is it genetic? The ex husband N/S/P was adopted. All we know about his birth father is that he had been arrested early in his mother’s pregnancy, and was in jail the entire pregnancy. The birth mother never told the father about the baby. She gave him up for adoption, before the father found out.

Both parents of the adopted family are Narcisisstic, at the very least.

What is so scary, from the outside looking into this family system, they seem like one big, well adjusted, happy, functional, accepting, compassionate family, that attends Church, every Sunday.

When I came into this family, I felt like I was walking into a big beautiful,well maintained, mansion (metephorically speaking). Once inside, and the door closed behind me, it was like being trapped inside a haunted house.

Not only my ex has major personality disorders, so does his mother, father and step mother, older sister, and younger brother. They all have to have drama, and someone must be sacrified for their feeding frenzy. If there isn’t an (in-law) to bash, trash, accuse, blame, and plot against, then they will turn on each other, choose sides, then war it out.

Sadly, now that the grandkids have reached the age of mid 20’s through my youngest (9), my ex and his siblings will toss their own children into the feeding frenzy; especially if the child does not play by the rules of their delusions.

The rules are to make the parent and grandparents look good at any price; even at the expense of making yourself look bad. Never notice the dysfunction, and especially don’t comment or question it. Don’t expect your boundaires to be respected; because you don’t have the right to have boundaires. When the grandparents say jump, you must already be 10 feet off the ground anticipating thier demand, otherwise, consider yourself “cut out” of the family.

Being “cut out” means you will be isolated, alienated, and talked badly about, plotted against, jokes will circulate that are aimed at you, like darts, and you are the dart board.

The father uses the promise of inheritance to control everyone. If you don’t worship him and agree to hate who he hates, then you’ll be cut out of his life, and his will. At least this is what he threatens. By next year, if it suits him, you could be his proclaimed favorite. Don’t get too excited, though. Being his chosen favorite, is only for the purpose of his desire to alienate, and piss somebody else off. Once this is no longer entertaining, you’ll be dropped kicked again.

What a freakin circus show they were/are.

Thank you, Lord, for plucking me and the kids out of that nightmare.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:00pm
Isabell says:

Witsend -

I’m sorry you are feeling defeated. There are many here, with much greater wisdom then I have. They will have elaquent words of advice.

For me, when I am feeling defeated, exhausted, weary, and gloomy, I tell myself it’s like watching a scary movie (which I hate), and it will soon, enough be over. This too, shall pass.

(((Hugs)))
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:15pm
skylar says:

Isabell, you have a goldmine.
Just take a hidden video camera with you when you visit and start filming. It’s a sitcom in the making! So easy, lights, camera, action.
Then just find a network to buy the rights.

Seriously, I love your description of their interactions and motivations. It’s so spot on. It sounds like my family.
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Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:35pm
Stargazer says:

Wait, now henry dumped Dionne Warwick for a blind guy named Phil? Wow, I just can keep up with your love lives!

I went to a costume party tonight. I had to drag myself out of obligation to a co-worker, but I ended up having a good time and even won the “cutest costume” award.
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 2:34am
ErinBrock says:

Go star!!!! Glad you had a good time!!!! It always seems we have to drag oursleves out …..then once out….we have a good time!!!!! Good for you!

Oh, henry’s moved on alright…….read what we have been up to tonight……on the other thread….
We can’t keep up with ol’ henry……
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 2:37am
geminigirl says:

Witsend darling, dont feel defeated. been there, done that got the Tshirt. I feel sorry for you though, you still have to live with your P son. I DO know what its like to be scared shitless of your own child, I was. You are RIGHT to feel scared,no-one believed me at the time, and no one was on my side. I was living with a P alcoholic husband, two p teenagers, and was emotionally abused by all three and physically abused by two of them. I think if I hadnt escaped, either my P daughter or my ex might have killed me. I had no-one to confide in, the police did nothing, the one time I did call the police and tell them how my ex and older daughter were treating me, my ex told them a pack of lies, and guess what? they believed him and left.!Looking back, its a wonder I didnt go mad. I do believe if Id stayed Id either be crazy or dead by now. I was gaslighted by all 3 of them, and this was before I even had heard of gaslighting! I thought I was losing my mind.If your gut tells you to look out,and if you are scared of your son, you must either kick him out, or get the hell out, go someplace else, dont tell him where your going.Its NOT normal teenage behaviour, its EVIL, and you have the right to fear for your life and sanity. Dont wait till your beaten down, sick, and tormented, like poor Lily. Get the f–k out now, change the locks, or move. THEY are capable of killing, without a shred of conscience, they HAVE no conscience.You must NOW look after YOU, its about your survival now, let him go, and bloody good riddance. They never change, they are malevolent beings. YOU ARE NOT TO BLAME for the way he is, and hell NEVER CHANGE!!!Believe me! Ive waited 30 years for my P daughters to change, hasnt happened yet.Cut your losses, and GO!! and good luck,Love and prayers for you, dear. GemXX
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 7:13am
henry says:

Rosa~! Dionne Warwich did sing that song..and she is whitneys aunt ( I think) thanks (all) for the advice on the blind date – it has not been arranged yet, the match maker is still working on the details..hey I will meet him for lunch and if neither one of us puke! , maybe it will be someone nice – nice and kind and respectful – I can smell a P a mile away so dont yall fear..I am becoming such a recluse – any excuse for an outing would be good…Star glad you had a good time last nite did your costume include a skillet? We had a party on another thread last nite – I think the full moon made us act like kids for awhile – you should of been there I had the best costume~!
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Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 1:43pm
sherry winter says:

I am no longer the person I was before I met my sociopath. However, I do NOT like the person I have become. I may be wiser, I may be smarter, I may depend on myself more then I ever did before. I no longer expect someone else to complete any part of me. Some may say that is a good thing. I will never be the one who does though.

I miss the person who trusted every one and every thing. I miss believing that ever dark cloud had a silver lining. I miss believing in Santa clause and the tooth fairy, not literally, and yet if there was any doubt about something, I would believed.

Unfortunately, I believed also in him. The hole in me was that I thought I was put on this earth to do something important. I no longer believe that… I believe I am only an ant and nothing more. I know some would miss me, and perhaps for more then a few weeks. My daughters, my granddaughter, and maybe others. However I no longer believe that the would in general would miss me. I no longer believe that there is a space in time that only I could uniquely fit in, and that it would create a black hole in life, if you will, if I wasn’t here to fill it.

I believed in him, and no only he stabbed me in the back while smiling to my face, but every one who has believed his lies… both friend and foe, have also injured me for all eternity.

I am looking at having to go back into the work place in January, to a lead worker who only wanted to use me and have an affair, but kept it a secret FROM ME and every one else for two years, while he ruined my marriage, and both my life and my then husbands life, as he wove his lies to draw me in.

I get to go back to a boss, who to this day thinks I made up 95% of the story. Even though he had a gut feeling that made him go back over and over to my lead worker to ask if anything was going on, he believed him every time he lied, and some how didn’t bother to ask me.

I get to go back to a department manager who apparently was one of very few that actually knew this man was a cad, and told me to my face that IT WAS MY FAULT, because I KNEW he was a womanizer.

And then there is HR, which SHOULD make the work place safe for all workers, threatening to fire me if I dare to warn any of the other woman that this man is targeting. After all, we can’t have the workplace a hostile place for the poor sociopath!

I’m different then I was. I used to believe my intuition, and my ability to read people. I used to trust that if I didn’t defend myself, GOD would protect me. I used to believe that someone who knew someone for 15 yrs, would actually know the person well enough to let you know what they were really like.

I no longer believe any one or anything.

Am I a better person? Some might think so, since at 52 yrs old, I am no longer child like in my faith. However, I don’t like the person I am now, any more then I like the rest of the world.

The only meaning I could possibly get out of what happened, was if I was able to put on a mask like Zoro or Batman, and rid the world of lowlife scum like him. But there are to masked hero’s in the real world, and more then there are fairy’s or dreams that come true.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 6:10pm
skylar says:

sherry,
welome. You are not alone. You are experiencing what each of us has and still does experience. There are no pat answers, it’s a process, your brain needs to adjust to this new knowledge and incorporate it into your new reality. It’s really hard at our age but it will happen.

Give thanks that you have a job. It’s a treasure.
My only suggestion for self protection is to carry a phone that has video camera capacity and lots of storage. When you must have contact with the sociopath, make sure the video camera is running. It doesn’t have to point toward anything in particular, just as long as it’s getting audio and video. Then send the video as an email attachment to your home computer.

Sherri, I’m not anywhere near healed but my survival depended on learning everything possible about this disorder.
I search for more knowledge and understanding each day because that is how I’m going to integrate this parallel world of evil into my old fantasy land of good. It also gives me a purpose and it gives me confidence and strength to face people and believe in my ability to judge again.

Here are 4 quotes by Joseph Campbell that may help you.

It is by going down into the abyss
that we recover the treasures of life.
Where you stumble,
there lies your treasure.

Opportunities
to find deeper powers within ourselves
come when life seems most challenging.

We must be willing to get rid of
the life we’ve planned,
so as to have the life that is waiting for us.
The old skin has to be shed
before the new one can come.

If you can see your path laid out
in front of you step by step,
you know it’s not your path.
Your own path you make with every step you take.
That’s why it’s your path
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 8:04pm
Aeylah says:

Skylar:

Thank you for those fantastic quotes!

They apply to so many of us going through life changing experiences and transformtions when we dont know what the future holds!

I will print these and keep them at hand for my own inspiration…..as this is a very scary uncertain time for me.

wishing you and all here on LF, peace, wisdom, patients, and the strenght to move forward with dignity and clarity.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:07pm
skylar says:

your welcome aeylah,
if I can give hope to anyone even for a moment (with Joseph Campbell’s genius to lean on, of course), it makes it more bearable to me that I had to suffer 25 years of P-hell.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:10pm
skylar says:

I just saw a movie called Trapped, with Charlize Theron (a great actress) and Kevin Bacon.

It’s about a P (kevin bacon) who’s got his trojan P’s convinced to do evil with his sad (pity ploy) story of how his daughter died. The great thing about movies is that you can always spot the P and all his little P-tricks and p-trojans.

I see art (literature and movies) so differently than I used to. so much of the charcter development used to go right over my head and now it’s so full of meaning. All the P’s are after revenge for being wronged (real or imagined). The story is their driving force. How pathetic. My P said I reminded him of his mother whom he hates.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:20pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Sherry,

I hear your pain…the “details” of what happened–the particular hell you are in are so similar to the pain and hurt that so many of us have been in or are in…but for those who have climbed out of the abyss, the memory of that pain is still very clear.

I am glad that you came here, Sherry, because this is a healing place with people who WILL believe you, who can relate to the particular pain of the betrayal and devaluation that only a psychopath can accomplish.

Knowledge is power, and you can heal, you can find that particular space in the universe that is UNIQUE TO YOU, that only YOU can fill. You are not valueless. This experience is painful, but it too is not valueless.

Believing in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy and that there is good in everyone is a comforting belief, but it is based on falsehood. “The truth will set you free, but FIRST IT WILL PITH YOU OFF” That is one of the favorite sayings here at LF and it is so true. The truth is painful, it will, however, set us free, free to BE and to LIVE, and LOVE and experience in a way that we never could ahve done when we believed in fairy tales. (((((hugs)))) and God bless you. Hang around and read, there are wonderful articles here (in the archives) and each one will help you on your journey toward PEACE!
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:24pm
PInow says:

Sherry Winter, Thank you for sharing your pain. I cried for you and for myself. You have described exactly how I feel and what I feel. Yet, we must go on, we must adjust to the new selves and to the fact that those who have not known the deepest sense of the ultimate betrayal will never be able to understand why we just don’t write it off as a “bad investment” and move on.
I share your pain and I share your fear. Is there a way to switch from your department/ your location/ to avoid seeing him or hearing of him? this will only be another reminder of how unfair the world is. there is no truth in our fighting for others to SEE. It only makes things more complicated and lonely for us.
Stepfather is a good film. It is full of triggers. I don’t know why I insisted that my kids and I go to that very movie. I think I wanted to investigate. I think I wanted to remember. I may have been masochistic or trying to prove to myself that it’s all in my head. It is true: I would like to actually believe I am making things up, and they are not so, or had never been so. My kids were able to watch the movie. Luckily, the theater was empty, because every few minutes they exclaimed: “MOM
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:48pm
PInow says:

“Mom, it’s just like the P”.
As I walked outside with them, wiping away my tears and apologizing to them for putting them in harm’s way, not listening to their concerns and choosing to ignore the signs, but instead listening to the P, my teenager said to me: “Look at the bright side. Someone had been through what we had been through and made a movie about it. We too will have the P out of our lives”.
May God be with you during these hard times, Sherry, or whatever Truth is out there. May it make your return smoother and memories fainter.
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Monday, 2 November 2009 @ 11:53pm
Isabell says:

Sherry Winter…

Thank you for writing what I feel. My kids believe I can make magic out of anything. I used to believe the same about my Mom. And, I suppose behind the magic is a passionate hope that ultimately, all things are good.

Not anymore. I too question the person I’ve become. I no longer flutter with hope that is magical, faith filled, or child like. At 49, I’ve become cautious, questioning, suspicious — Flat.

And, it is this very “flatness” that concerns me. After my first sociopath, who swept me off my feet, destroying an innocent, and beautiful relationship, to survive him, I had to become him. And, in that I realized… I lost my innocence.

I didn’t learn, however. I went on to find the most subtle, with cult like family system of S/N/Ps to subject myself. How brilliant is that?

My younger three have recently met the the N-father of their older sibling. Their alarms went off, with RED FLAGS waving. And, I have to wonder… why didn’t that happen to me, when I met him?
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 2:47am
OxDrover says:

Dear Isabell,

“Life is a tough teacher, she gives the TEST FIRST, and the lesson AFTERWARDS” I’m not sure who first said that, but it is so true, I think.

We learn when we are READY to learn and the conditions are right. I am glad yuour kids are getting the lessons NOW and not having to wait til later. So there IS A BRIGHT SIDE to this pain, there is a good side, we are finally learning, and it is a growth opportunity, a painful lone, albeit, but an opportunity, nonetheless. ((((hugs)))))
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Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 10:43am
sherry winter says:

I have been on a job rotation/developmental, for almost a year now to get away from the situation. The bosses who let me know it was ME who was the problem, set it up so that I wouldn’t ROCK THE BOAT, when I had a break down at work. Their hope was that I would come back in a year with new skills, and enough distance from the CRIMES committed against me that they could continue on like nothing had happened.

But no amount of time will remove the injury to my life or my heart. I try to tell people, “It’s not JUST what he did to me, that makes it an impossible environment. It’s having to watch what he is continuing to do to others day after day. No one will ever thank me for what I’ve done. I actually saved his Florida mistress years of manipulation by planting things around the house before she showed up for their 14 day vacation to AZ together. He picked up and hid every thing I owned in his house. My shampoo, razors, and scrubber in the shower. My perfume, and women’s products in the bathroom. Half a closet of clothes were neatly packed in the back so no one could see.

Every thing was hidden under layers and layers of HIS things, where there was no possibility of her finding it to confirm my phone call to her that I’d made months before. Every thing EXCEPT the earrings by MY side of the bed. It was enough to let her know that 10 days a year with him was not enough to keep him celibate to her alone. So she offered to move 3000 miles to be with him. Except he dumped her, not for me, but for someone else he’d been sleeping with for 2 yrs RIGHT UNDER MY NOSE.

She’s a nice lady, we contact each other once in a while, but it is always painful. Nothing like two woman arguing over who the Sociopath that was ruining their life liked more, to make you wonder what planet you’re from! Still, he would have continued to live his split life, here and 3000 miles away, with confidence that she would never be close enough to find out about his other lovers, if I had not contacted her, and left evidence at his house to validate my claims.

She will never thank me, but she’s free because of me. As is one of my co-workers. I started crying at her desk one day when I heard her voice, and I talked about his florida mistress, and about the woman in portland that he’d been sleeping with for two years right under my nose, and she turned green. That is when I put 2 and 2 together, and all the signs I’d tried to ignore about her and him. Yup, he’d been with her since before our break up.

Then I caught them leaving together when I wanted to talk to him about something. Secretive, not wanting any one to know, and when I told my boss, “it’s not just me, he’s doing it to her too!” they told me to never bother the woman again because she was going through a hard time. YUP, a hard time so he had an opening to manipulate her. She still gives me looks that could kill when I pass her in the parking lot. She did not appreciate me interfering. I’m sure she still thinks that it’s because of ME that he broke up with her. I suppose in a sense it was, because if I hadn’t blown the whistle on him, no one would have been paying attention, and he would have continued his affair with her, while the woman up in portland would be his OFFICIAL girlfriend that his family knew about.

Every one thinks I’m crazy. No one will ever really understand. I have a fiance now, but I’ve put the wedding on hold. I like him, but I don’t really believe in love any more. It just seemed better to retire with someone I liked, verses alone. He’s always saying I need to close the door, and start a new life with him. But I really don’t want a NEW LIFE, I want the OLD LIFE that my sociopath stole from me back! But even if I got my ex back, it would never be the same. I am not the same person, my ex has suffered at his hand too… we can never go back.

The wedding is on hold because I’m not so sure I just don’t want to be alone for the rest of my life. Every day alone looks better and better. All the prior victims of this sociopath that I know have also made it clear they never want to live with a man again… that being alone is so much better then trusting any one. It was never who I was before… I always got my joy by what I did for others.. but now, I think just being alone and giving only to ME for the rest of my life sounds better.

I have tried to get a full time job here where I’m working. It had looked like it would happen, and then the job market got as crazy as the stock market. People with 30+ yrs of experience applying for jobs way below them, and I only have 6-7 years experience in this field. And then the one question during interviews I fear seem to pop up over and over… “How do you deal with conflict in the work place?” OMG, I’d never HAD to before him… and the one with him, is so horrid that I’ve been told a dark shadow covers my face as soon as the question is asked, and no words from me are even needed… the employers just run the other way!

Now many of the jobs that they were going to put me into here, have been stopped because of budget cuts… and I simply don’t know what to do. I may just need to have my nurse UP my depression/panic attack meds to a point where I’m just numb, to be able to function when I have to move back in january.

I’ve had some suggest that I just take ANY job, to get away. I gave up all my retirement to go back to school to become a programmer when I was still married. My retirement was based on my husbands retirement! My Sociopath took that away from me. He took away a life time of competing with horses.

If I quit a good paying job, for a nothing position, he will have taken away my career from me… with the lessor pay, I wouldn’t be able to make the $2100 mortgage on my farm. I’ve kept that farm through 2 divorces, and with the market for homes the way it is, I would lose over $100,000 of equity in it.

He’s taken enough from me… maybe even my soul, I don’t think he needs to take my career, my home, or any thing else that I actually have left of what was a good life until he came into it! My shrink says do ANYTHING rather then going back to that IT Shop, even wait on tables. I just can’t do that. I gave up too much to get there, and gave up almost every thing else because of the sociopath. I need to keep what little is left of my shattered life.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 11:32am
jfog1 says:

Hi everyone!

This post really hit home, OX. I am the person whose traits you described. I have never felt good enough, have been afraid of success, and have always felt that my purpose in life is to do for others. My first husband said he never loved me, this after 22 yrs of marriage, treated me terribly. We divorced two years later. I put up with emotional abuse and his substance abuse and sex addiction (porn and other women) and his family who thought that he married far benieth him. I felt that I had failed and that I shouldn’t even live. All I could think about was dying but I couldn’t because I have two amazing sons who didn’t deserve to have their mother dead.
I then met a man who dated me and treated me worse than my ex. He insulted me, and told me that if I gained even as little as one half of a pound, that he would leave me.
I thought so little of myself that I let him destroy my self esteem further. I stopped seeing him and he resurfaced when he learned that my house sold. He had thought that he was going to get some money. That is the only reason that he dated me to begin with.
When I met my second husband, I was still very vulnerable and I now know that he zeroed in on me. He thought that I had money and that I would be inheriting quite a bit from my parents. He had seen our B&B and saw dollar signs. My home was also a B&B and was a very impressive place.
He swept me off my feet and my family thought he was fantastic. My youngest son thought he was going to have a “father”. After the wedding ceremony, he went from being”DR. Jekyll” to “Mr. Hyde”. He would belittle me, he stopped saying that he loved me, except for every now and then, when he would say it to get me to feel happy, then he would get pleasure out of saying hurtful things and withdrawing affection. I left him after ten weeks. I found out that he only wanted money. He had written an ex girlfriend emails on our wedding night instead of sleeping with me.
He was unfaithful from the beginning of our relationship as I later found out. During our brief marriage he definitely was sleeping with other women. I have proof of all of this, but still I lost nearly $70,000. Between my two ex’s, I don’t have any extra money, but I am working and building up my credit. They both make over six figures a piece and they made off with my money, but I am free of them. I am finally divorced as of today from my N/P (second ex) and I do have regrets, but I quit beating myself up about it. I am working on changing the way I feel about myself, which at my age (53) it is a difficult process.
I have had more changes in my life over the past three years than most people have in twenty, and the surprising thing is that I am more resilient than I ever imagined I could be.
I don’t know if I will ever be able to trust again. Maybe it is better that I don’t. I also don’t see myself getting married again. I need to know that I am fine on my own and try to like myself.
Thank you all for being here for each other. I read all of your post’s and I feel that we are like a family. People you can share good and bad with and still feel accepted.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 12:57pm
Isabell says:

Dear OxDrover,

“Life is a tough teacher, she gives the TEST FIRST, and the lesson AFTERWARDS”

I’ve always said that I tend to learn backwards.

If my experience is for the benefit of teaching my kids (early in their lives) the lessons, so they won’t have to bed tested, unprepared, then I will consider it all joy!

They have remarkable laser vision and can spot “creepy” no matter how it’s disquised.

Maybe this is because I believe kids have clearer perceptions then adults, and as such, I’ve honored their perceptions. They are SURE of what they KNOW, and don’t need anyone’s validation to confirm.

I, on the other hand, was taught VERY EARLY to not notice the violations inflicted by others or I would be guilty, punished, seperated from my loved ones, or worse. I was taught it’s my fault to notice; not their fault to have acted badly. (As I type this… that’s exactly how my ex is. He’d get mad at the kids if they cried in pain, when he was wrestling with them, instead of stopping to make sure they were ok, and apologize. He would say to them… “Oh, you’re alright. I didn’t hurt you. You are fine. Stop being such a baby. Well, if you didin’t…. and he’d go on, and on blaming them for his overly agressive behavior.” )

I’ve spent most of my life trying to figure people out, as if the explination of their evil behavior would make the pain they inflict, less painful.

Recently as I was pondering the reasons behind some of my ex’s behavior, my oldest daughter stopped me and said…

“Mom, some people are just BAD people. They are evil. Period. There’s no explination, no sad childhood story that justifies the evil in them. Because there are a lot of people who have had sad childhoods (including yourself) that do not grow up to become evil. So, except it for what it is. He’s evil. He’s a BAD person. And, that’s what I’m going to teach my son. Some people are BAD and Evil. I’ll point them out, and tell him… Stay away from Bad and Evil people.”

I guess you could say this is evidence that my kids are learning the lessons early.

Ox, thank you for your wisdom, insights, and warmth. I do appreciate all that you’ve shared with me, and others.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 2:27pm
OxDrover says:

Dear Sherry,

I hear your pain and most people do NOT get it, they think we should suck it up and move on, it’s not so easy.

However, i do suggest you don’t make big decisions just based on money—I found out that STUFF is just stuff, and I literally ran for my life, leaving everything I owned of any value behind…I was fortunate in the end to save it and be able to come back to my house (this was a family member not a lover) but the thing is I AM MORE IMPORTANT TO ME THAN STUFF.

As far as marrying someone else just to have “someone” I sincerely suggest that you spend some time ALONE and get your “stuff all in one sock” before you even consider another relationship. Unfortunately, NO ONE can rescue us from the pain we must do that ourselves and relationships take a lot of energy that we need to spend on ourselves. I am a widow, and I tried to find a relationship because I was lonely and didn’t want to spend the res t of my life “alone” and believe me, ALONE is better, I pickd a P. Fortunately I didn’t marry him. found out he only wanted another respectable wife to keep his harem at bay.

Stay around here and read and learn and de-stress yourself. Don’t worry about tomorrow, try to be good to yourself today and make today a good, peaceful day. One day at a time. (((hugs)))

JFOG and Isabell, thank you I’m glad my words helped you today! that’s what LF is all about! ((((hugs))))) Oxy
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 2:39pm
jazzy129 says:

Why would someone who was a ‘friend’ for 16 years steal and lie about me? Why did I let it happen? I was so blind. My therapist tells me ‘don’t let him take up any more room in your head.’ How was I so stupid?
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:01pm
skylar says:

Jazzy, they were envious of you. It is their nature to be envious so they stole what you had, both your possessions and your reputation. They want to leave you with nothing because of their envy.
Be glad that you found out that there are people like this and be vigilent because they are subtle and will hide it for years.
(Report abusive comment)

Tuesday, 3 November 2009 @ 8:18pm
jazzy129 says:

Thanks so much for responding. It’s been a year since I kicked him out, but I’m still so angry…at him, but at myself, too. I’m disabled and housebound because of agoraphobia. I developed that and PTSD because I was terrified of his stalking. My only outlet was a chat room where I had been accepted for a year. He spammed that with horrible lies about me, and I was booted out and found myself alone. No matter what I posted, I was seen as the enemy.

After I was isolated, he tried to come back into my life through email. phone calls, and phone calls to an elderly neighbor across the street. I contacted a victims group, and they helped me through almost a year of sleepless nights. Even though i was threatened online…’Karma is going to get you, and I’m going to make sure it happens!’, the local police were no help. I considered what he was doing was stalking, but the police were kind but not very concerned about my safety. I was told that if he showed up, to call them…they were just a few minutes away. I didn’t get a restraining order because I was advised by a victim’s advocate that it could escalate him into violence.

So, he’s still out there, but I’m still angry, disgusted with myself, and I’m still afraid to go out my front door. I feel so stupid. I’m a very nice lady, kind to animals and people that I meet when I do manage to get out. I’ve never been an angry person, I hate what I have become.

Will I ever get past this and heal? I wish I had found this site site a year ago. Thank you SO MUCH for all the stories everyone has shared.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 6:52am
justabouthealed says:

Agoraphobia responds well to treatment. Has your therapist addressed this? PTSD also responds to treatment.

And yes, you WILL get past this and heal! The advise your therapist gave you is worth trying. See the posts under M.L. Gallagher. There is one titled something like “No Contact Starts in My Head”. It is really useful for your situation I think!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 7:00pm
justabouthealed says:

Jazzy- here is the link to it. http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....n-my-head/
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 7:02pm
Stargazer says:

Okay, backing up a few days, henry, I did NOT wear a skillet as part of my costume because no one there would get it (although there was a couple there dressed as bacon and eggs).

Well, I managed to alienate most of the people on my reptile site preaching about responsible snake keeping. Just as well, I really need a break from the internet and that site. Then I felt retraumatized by a nasty person at work today and another one who’s actually pretty nice but can just be a little overwhelming. All because I went to work in a really crappy space due to being hit with more childhood memories that I’m having a hard time processing. I’m trying once again to find an affordable therapist, but coming up with zeros. I especially cannot afford EMDR or cranial sacral, which is supposed to be good with trauma.

I really feel if I can get through this mire of feeling so helpless, I can make a big career change and have more money coming in. I feel SO stuck. I sometimes feel like I’m the most screwed up person on the face of the earth. I trust no one and can’t even open up alone in my own home. I hate this. This is really the only safe haven I have right now, so I hope people will go easy on me here. I don’t think I can handle a skillet unless someone wants to give me a massage with it or cook me a meal. I really don’t even have a clue how to take care of myself right now. Sometimes I feel like I’m so close to a breakthrough, and other times I feel like I’m so far away.

Sorry, I’m venting. No responses required. I think I butted in on a conversation in progress.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:21pm
skylar says:

Hey Star,
I can relate to how you feel – I feel icky too.
I keep thinking I need my chakras aligned. I know it would help me but I can’t afford it either and I don’t know of any really good therapist.

Vent all you need to, because I’ll listen and I won’t boink you. ((hug)).
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:28pm
skylar says:

Last night I dreamt that my FWB was a P. It was horrifying. I can’t help wondering if my subconscious is trying to warn me.

The dream was so weird and I woke up convinced he was a P, but then throughout the day, I calmed down and rationalized everything. Then today he called and cancelled our “therapy”. He’s been gone out of town and now he’s working like crazy catching up. I know that’s what normal people do, but I’m not normal and I’ve grown dependant on my “therapy” sessions.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:38pm
henry says:

Star – You know what? I can not go back and undo or redo anything. I will live with my past till the day I die, there is no gettin around that. But I am making peace with my past so I can live in the present. It’s because of my past that I got involved with you know who. I think you and I have unrealistic notions of love and happy ever after. What I strive for today is peace with myself. I want to live without all those voices. I have really gotten to a place where I dont need anyone. I am comfortable in my own skin. I have denied my own self for too long, so here I am world, take it or leave it. What is most important too me now is to live with myself and like myself. You all seem to like me, my kids love me, the guy I gave a jump start for his vehicle today said ” Its nice that there are still nice people like you” so Star stop analyzing your past so much, we dont have to go back there ever again.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:46pm
skylar says:

Henry, some of us have hair-trigger adrenal glands. Anything sets us off especially stress.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:49pm
ErinBrock says:

Star/SKY:
This is a complete unravel of emotions…..we can only undo and address small bits at a time…..the good part is the process continues!
We also need to learn to have faith in our abilities as a human being!
Recognize our strengths and focus on them.
Like I tell my kids…..we can’t allow our emotions and feelings to be dependant on anyone else! Highs AND Lows.
Once we learn to please ourselves we can go out into the world and conquor it.
Both of you ladies are very smart, wonderful woman…….GO WITH THAT!!!!
Feed off of that and allow your esteem to take you down the path.
There is never a plateau we reach and we are done……so realize it’s all a work in progress and we need to keep at it.
NEVER DOUBT YOURSELVES, and don’t let the world bring you down.
We can never eliminate the ‘bad’ from society……if it’s not one person, it will be the next…..we need it to come from US!
SHAKE IT UP……and remain faithful to yourselves.
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:51pm
ErinBrock says:

Henry said it MUCH better!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 8:53pm
henry says:

skylar thanks for the warning.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:03pm
skylar says:

LOL, Henry, I’m still triggered by your insistance on 2 queen beds!
Watch out!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:05pm
ErinBrock says:

Then Skylar…..shave the hair!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:08pm
skylar says:

WHAT!?
HUH?
Erin, what hair?!!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:10pm
henry says:

its ok erin – i like hairy leg’s
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:18pm
ErinBrock says:

Sky:
” some of us have hair-trigger adrenal glands”

Yes, Henry….hairy legs are fine…..but if you got hair triggering your adrenals……SHAVE IT!
Laser therapy for permanent removal would be optimal!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:22pm
skylar says:

OH, I thought she meant my head hair! LOL.

I started thinking my celibate lesbian friend likes bald women.

So, I went and shaved it…just like britany spears did.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:22pm
kim frederick says:

Stargazer, I can identify. I’m afraid to even really open up here because I feel so f–cked up.

I have no self confidence anymore and prefer to be alone. I don’t trust people to even like me. I feel absolutely lost with people who have lived very normal, ordinary lives, and yet I envy them. I have nothing to show for 50 years of living…nothing material, and soooo many mistakes and heartaches.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:25pm
ErinBrock says:

Kim/Star….
You know….I still feel the importance of trusting others….there are things we have to trust others with…..like depositing money into a bank account……we have to trust the bank.
We have to trust our mechanic when he changes our tires on our cars…..
You get my point……

If we lose ALL faith in the world around us…..then what’s the point in being in this world?
We all choose to be here……so we need to find a healthy balance within.
I don’t think it’s about trust…..I think it’s about the hurt of betrayal.
If we can get to the point where we know we are OKAY emotionally, then we will be more willing to succeed and hence fail while trying…..
However one defines success or failure in ones life.

Trust does not come for free……we just need to make sure our ‘accounts’ are full going in.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:38pm
henry says:

Kim You belong to the same club so many of us do. But I have more self confidence now than I ever have because I stopped looking for my self worth in others….what other people think of me is none of my business.. and by the way what is ordinary? what is normal?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:42pm
henry says:

Erin I can make that bank deposit for ya…found anything yet?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:44pm
ErinBrock says:

Henry….I’m still working on trust issues with my bank!
If I find anything….I’m gonna rebury it somewhere else!!!!
Thanks for the offer though….your a bud!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:47pm
skylar says:

Don’t rebury it Erin, use a safe deposit box, aren’t those totally confidential?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:51pm
ErinBrock says:

NO!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:56pm
ErinBrock says:

In theory…..
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 9:57pm
skylar says:

I’m just worried about someone else unearthing it again. Everytime you want to spend some money, you got go out with a shovel. Been there, done that. it makes you paranoid.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:07pm
skylar says:

Kim,
you have grandkids. These are people who wouldn’t EXIST without your sacrifices, your efforts and the decisions you made in life. They will have kids and you will go on forever.
You could have had an abortion like I did when I was 15 and then you’d really have nothing to show for it.
Plus, you should know that I always look forward to your witty remarks and your anecdotes about Pinky-doodle.
has he worn his sweater anymore?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:10pm
kim frederick says:

EB, Henry and Skylar, Thanks.
I don’t know for sure what normal is, but I know I’m not quite it.
Yes, I’m greatfull for my kids and grandkids. They are IT.

Pinky-doodle HATES his sweater, but it looks so cute on him.
I took pictures, and he may never wear it again, but I think I’ll send the picture to channel four, next year for the Florida-Georgia rivalry.

I’m trying to figure out how to knit hand puppets for my grand-kids for X-mas…..
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:22pm
shabbychic says:

kim… “I’m afraid to even really open up here because I feel so f–cked up.”
I’m right there with you!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:25pm
shabbychic says:

I admit I have had a shovel and been out digging in my mother’s backyard (she passed away 2 years ago). But I did it in broad daylight, well, she has a fence around her yard, there is no forest. Haven’t found anything but there was talk with sister about a metal detector. We don’t really have anything to go on like EB, we’re just insane, did find something hidden in the house.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:34pm
skylar says:

Well guys, I feel like the idiot who just posts whatever the heck she’s thinking and doesn’t censor it. I KNOW I’m fucked up but thought it was ok to just admit it here.

Today I remembered something I did as a little 4-year old. My mom’s elderly neighbor came over to chat and have coffee. My mother had “confided” in me that this neighbor wore too much makeup, in her opinion. No sooner did this neighbor sit down, and I ran up and told her, “mommy said you wear too much makeup.” LOL.
My mother was mortified and it only took me a second to realize I’d screwed up. But kids will be kids.

I’m not that bad anymore but I still feel compelled to just tell it like it is. Anything else seems like a waste of effort.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:35pm
kim frederick says:

thanks, Shabby. It feels good to know I’m not alone.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:36pm
heavenbound says:

Shabbychic and Kim ,

I would like for you both to open up!

I’m the newby so it’s your responsibility to make me feel at home (jk!) and I can’t break open how f-ed up I am if you don’t, you both have seniority on me! so you first!!!

But, Skylar is right we are here to be accepted like no where else we have to go. Right?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:45pm
kim frederick says:

S kylar, Oh Yes. I remember throwing mama under tthe train an a few occasions, but i don’t remember having any evil intent…..I just remember being a kid. I think these are normal experiences where we learn social lessons. I remember my oldest daughter throwing me under, once, or twice, too. We just laugh, now. And now her son, is throwing her under the train, too.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 10:49pm
skylar says:

Really Kim?
It’s funny, what I did, but I have to admit, I think it just added to my trauma. I felt soooo guilty!

Anyway, i would like to add that I’m NOT encouraging you to open up in anyway other than you feel COMPLETELY comfortable. I realize that there are stalkers from the sociopath world here and some of us might be sensitive to their remarks.

Even though I don’t care about that, some people might, so only post what is comfortable to you.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:02pm
shabbychic says:

skylar, I learn from you and others because you are able to be open, of course we can admit we’re f*cked up! I don’t know where I’d be without all of you, probably still wandering around in the FOG. Now I have awareness of them, but even more awareness of ME.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:19pm
heavenbound says:

Shabby and Kim,

I only meant my above post with humor. I was not trying to push you, it was not meant that way, I am sorry for that. I also did not mean to imply that Skylar was saying any of us should go past what we are comfortable with either I do not think she was, if that’s how I came across. I’m sorry if i upset anyone, you are all great! I’ll butt out now, I just wanted to apologize.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:43pm
shabbychic says:

heavenbound, of course I thought you post was adorable! I don’t feel like anyone was trying to push me. God knows I’ve spilled my guts here and there on the site, I just can’t remember where! LOL. You don’t have anythng to apologize for!!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:49pm
henry says:

Well I used to be an open book until I figured out predators’ like to read~!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:49pm
henry says:

Heaven Get your behind back in here and stop apologizing so much – yer gettin om my nerve…dont ya know your with friends here?
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:52pm
skylar says:

no need to butt out Heaven,
we have fun when you’re around.
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:52pm
shabbychic says:

I’m going to think about just exactly what it is that I don’t want to write about, then I’m going to post the most f*cked up thing I’ve done that I can remember! LOL
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:53pm
henry says:

i meant on my nerve not om my nerve – you know I have one gay nerve left – open up girls I am tired of telling ‘my’ stories…
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:54pm
shabbychic says:

Yeah, don’t butt out, the more butts the better!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:55pm
henry says:

Did I ever tell you about the time I – oh I will be right back door bell is ringing..
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:57pm
ErinBrock says:

This is the ’safety net’ of not knowing each other personally.
We learn to have respect for others, take in others journeys and filter through.
We can choose to share as much or little as we feel comfortable.
We have all made ‘moves’ in our lives we wish we had not….but coming here is for the healing and learning about ourselves through sharing and being shared with.
It is my aproach to just be honest, straight and sometimes playful……and after reading someones posts for a bit, we get some of the personality behind the writings….HOPEFULLY!!!
We all have different lives experiences and opinions….but the LF faithfulls, IMO, are only here to offer support and community through connections and lived lessons.

So…..here we are…..walking a similar path…..
I am an open book…..Maybe not such a great thing…but in my journey, I feel it important for ME to lay it out…..paint the whole picture of EB…..I am no longer afraid of exposing myself to anyone who might know me……I would prefer no one knows I’m here and keep my personal anonymity….but if someone finds me here….FUCK EM! THIS IS MY LIFE……this is what I lived….like it or not…..it was a path I walked and the lessons I am learning….I’ve enabled, I’ve suffered and best of all I HAVE GROWN into an aware woman not afraid to fight for my rights!
We all have a value on LF……we are all important!!!!!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)

Wednesday, 4 November 2009 @ 11:58pm
heavenbound says:

Thank you, guys, I was worried!

Do I apologize a lot? I don’t want to be on your nerve henry!!!

I guess I just want everyone to be happy is all!

I love you guys!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:00am
heavenbound says:

The x p says I have a huge butt, so you may have to make room!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:01am
shabbychic says:

Speaking of butts, I wrote this a couple of weeks ago, the S (I write about an N and a S, my own diagnosis, whatever, they are toxic) well anyway, the S is looking at me (I had on jeans and a V-neck t-shirt) and he says: “What happened to your ass, it used to look good”. EXCUSEEEEE MEEEE!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:03am
henry says:

well my x said I had bad breath and stinky feet, so move over big butt..
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:06am
shabbychic says:

EB, yes, you are right, and I love your posts, you are the bomb, and we were just talking about your butt last night!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:06am
Stargazer says:

Henry, if only I were analyzing my past….. I’m actually recovering repressed memories and feelings, which is a very necessary part of healing. I welcome it, but I wish I had a therapist to help me cope right now.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:06am
shabbychic says:

EB, what are you doing in the house? Why aren’t you out in the backyard?
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:08am
skylar says:

my xP used to complain about my weight when I weighed 105 lbs at the age of 17. I don’t know if he was kidding or trying to sew seeds of self doubt (that would be ridiculous).

maybe making jabs at our weight is a P thing to do.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:09am
ErinBrock says:

The S referred to me as BOOBS AND BUTT!
AND this was back in the day when I was a size 3. (BACK IN THE DAY!)
Heaven….it sounds like we may both have to stay on the peripheral of the room to allow for others to pass! I’m with ya girl!

(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:09am
shabbychic says:

Stinky feet, ha ha ha, hee hee. Don’t we all have stinky feet? I’m not limber enough to get my feet anywhere near my nose, probably throw my back out if I tried. I’ll smell my socks. LOL
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:10am
ErinBrock says:

Shabby……well……I’m waiting for my troops to come help….and it may happen tomorrow or Fri.
I was going to go out tonight, but I was watching my regular bear come for a visit through the security cameras…..and it’s COOOOLLLLD. It may take too much tequila to warm me up, and besides the Halloween candy is almost gone!
Boobs and butt would make a great meal for a vegetarian bear!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:13am
henry says:

star – I had to do that about 18 months ago – I had so many repressed memories – things I couldnt wrap my mind around as a kid, so I just refused to deal with them.. But it all came to a head thanks to Mr. Needle on the haystack, but seriously. I went to my hill and screamed out to the universe..Never have I let it out like that – I asked God why, I screamed at my dead sister and father – at the people who have done so much evil crap too me… I apologyzed to this one and that and begged forgiveness. It was a necessary part of my healing…
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:14am
skylar says:

Mine walked up to me one morning just as I was taking my first sip of coffee, still on the edge of coma, and said, “no one will ever want you.”

Now at that moment, I wouldn’t disagree. i was being poisoned and was miserable and had gained weight and was depressed. But despite all that, I was amused because one cup of coffee and a shower later, and I’m good as new! LOL!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:14am
shabbychic says:

jeez, I haven’t been a size 3 since the 5th grade. Put some BBQ sauce on the boobs and butt for the bear!! Yeah, don’t go out there tonight with the bear unless you want to offer him a drink.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:16am
skylar says:

Erin, good call. Stay IN tonight.

Henry, Star, praying has helped me, screaming too.
LF has helped the most.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:16am
shabbychic says:

skylar, they are such assclowns.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:18am
skylar says:

SC, Assclowns and boogers, too!

I can’t seem to stay awake any longer, took my pill.
Love you all, gnite.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:19am
heavenbound says:

Yeah, mine said that about me when I was 110! And when I was pregnant, he wanted me to diet while the dr. wanted me to eat!

My boobs were too big because they were “more than a hand full” but God took those away and they were too small. It’s impossible to please them, They’d think a model should fix themselves for the p. No one is as good looking and perfect as them, in their own minds. They should quit looking there and take a look in a mirror. I told the p finally, “have you look in the mirror lately? I’m the only one this stupid, so get over yourself, no one else is knocking the door down to get you.”
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:21am
shabbychic says:

I used to sell CD’s for the N’s band and he told me that the “other” band members wanted to get someone young and attractive to sell the CD’s. So first I said “YOU CAN TELL THEM TO GO F*CK THEMSELVES”, and then I said “maybe if there was someone young and attractive IN THE BAND SOMEONE WOULD BUY A CD”. OMG… he was SO pissed. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!! I never sold another CD, and nobody else did either, they had to do it themselves.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:23am
heavenbound says:

goodnight Sky…sleep tight!

Shabbychic, that is hilarious!!! I love it!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:25am
ErinBrock says:

Okay…here comes the open book…..and a very humiliating moment in time……for me…..
But I will lead the way in opening up, so henry doesn’t feel alone……
We were on vacation at my brothers…..something HE NEVER joined us on……but, I bathed the kids, jumped in the shower and went to bed…..of course the S was all over me, the groping and sex………with the disgusting, big as a house, too many freckles, boobs and butt, ugly haired, dirt under nails, fat, non attractive, bitch and horrible bon-bon eating, non sex liking wife he chose to stay with………
There really wasn’t much left to attack……I was pretty worthless in his eyes…..and I had questioned how….if he felt this way about me……why he stayed?????
Anyways…..this night, during sex…..he abruptly stops……just stops……in silence…..I’m sitting there thinking, WTF? He is silent…..until……he says…..can you go wash your ass….you stink and I can’t come!
I had just gotten out of the shower…WTF…..I am a clean person…….(I won’t even defend this …I will stop!)
Can you imagine the humiliation……what does one say to that…..how do you respond…..
It was such a personal deep attack, will NO response, no argument.
It was at that point forward, I started attacking back…..with the same sort of things…….
I was tired of all the years of being a peice of shit……and wondering what I could do better for him…….so I started dishing, attacking his personal vulnerabilities……
I told him his penis smelled odd and until he could figure out how to make it smell better, I wasn’t paying a visit down in that ses pool!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:26am
persephone7 says:

I think Henry’s advice was spot on – go through your own process, whatever it is but just don’t let the past define you, we all deserve to go forward with new lives – forget about who we were, we don’t have to be victims anymore. Don’t think I’m saying this like I’ve got it handled, it’s just a new attitude I want to reinforce each day.

Erin – last night was so fun – like Oxy said, it felt like a great sleep-over…still want you to find your deserved treasure…hope you’re still working on your routine!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:27am
persephone7 says:

Erin: Feel foolish, posted over something meaningful you just shared so–bad timing…I guess this is a site for sharing things no matter what – but personally, I’d rather
keep those old things just that, personal. Feels like picking and repicking scabs after awhile. But I respect yours and other’s honesty in this.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:33am
shabbychic says:

EB, really… WTF???? There is no response to that!! I don’t even know what to say. I’m glad you started attacking back, jeez, I wonder if he tried to smell his penis! I hope he’s still worried about it!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:34am
heavenbound says:

ok,,, i told mine that when he got something to make his penis larger so I’d know when it was there, I’d THINK about doing something about my breasts… he had bought meds for like 900 dollars to make them larger my breasts that is…
He wanted me to play dead during sex! What is that but creepy. Of course I didn’t, what? He never did anything worth it!

He thought I should shower first, but since he “would have to shower after, why bother showering first”
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:35am
skylar says:

ok, I wasn’t asleep yet and Erin, your post will give me nitemares!
You made the right call, but I bet soon after is when he started showing the mr. hyde personality.

I also stopped having sex w/mine and he began to deteriorate. I didn’t notice it right away, but I think that was the beginning of the end. He felt he had lost control.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:38am
shabbychic says:

heavenbound, your response was to him was GREAT!! Ha ha… “so I’d know when it was there” PRICELESS
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:42am
ErinBrock says:

Persephone:
I will never give up……I will work any and every angle as it has served me well thus far!
Share as much as you feel you can heal with…..no more no less…..
A part of me shares this sort of deep crap because I don’t want to own it……it’s nothing I’m ‘personally’ accepting as MINE…..You know what I mean….It’s him…..all of it was him…..
It’s like a rape victim afraid of speaking and telling the police of exactly what was done to her…….
We don’t ask for this abuse……we shouldn’t own it…..use our experience to heal ourselves….
we do need to connect with it…..but we don’t need it to define us.

It’s like when the DA called me and wanted one of my childrens input before she moved forward on a warrant…..
The s made threats of ‘letting out’ a story about one SON being raped by a pro football player and son being gay and liking it……(YES, totally untrue, wierd and YES this came from his father) He was trying to shut the kids up, with these threats of harassment…..because the kids had spoken to the judge and layed it all out……AND he knew and stated it would cause his kids harassment in the community…..
The DA wanted us to know that when he is arrested the documents, including the threat would be public information, even know they were minors. It was evidence and would be available to anyone. She wanted to know if the son wanted her to proceed with charges……given this knowledge….
HE said HELL YES! It’s not true, and to not be prosecuted would only confirm S lies…..and threats……and manipulations…
THis kid wasn’t going to ‘own’ his fathers abuse!!!!
He wasn’t going to run from the threats…..
I was so proud of him!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:43am
henry says:

erin dang you stepped out of your BOX with that story — They feel so inferior inside, they are so insecure, they truly loath themselves.. They love to kick us in the teeth at the most unexpected moments..When the X and I would go out to the clubs, I got hit on left and right and he would say how proud he was to be with me, but before the nite was over he would find a way to make me feel like warmed over shit..
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:43am
shabbychic says:

EB, I just can’t imagine the humiliation. How cruel.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:45am
heavenbound says:

I so wish I could stay with you guys and share this night, but I have an early morning. I love you guys and hope you have a wonderful night!

Star…I’m sorry for your struggles. You’ll do great, I know you will!! Your in my prayers.

Good night to you all! Love hugs and prayers, heavenbound
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 12:54am
ErinBrock says:

My tune changed at that point…..I was tired of all his shit….the kids and I had mostly been traveling for a few years….only home for a few weeks at a time…..then off again
I rented a place for 3 months down in Mexico, then went to europe for 2 months…..I homeschooled the kids during this time….IT WAS THE COOLEST!!!!
WIthout him!
But part of me thought when we would get home, the whole absence makes the heart grow fonder……bit……..BUT…..in this case, absense made the drug dealer sell more and become more of a dick and become comfy in his little bachelor world with out big ass and kids to hid life from……

It all changed……
I started saying to him…..Oh, are you done?
I would ‘go down’ and say……OOOHHHHHHHuuuugggggg, gag, gag can you go wash your ass, it stinks……
At that point each time he would jump up on the bathroom sink…..(THANK GOD WE HAD SEPARATE SINKS) and splash water on his ass…..come back and I said….yeah….didn’t help and just roll over!
I just started fighting back with horrid personal attacks, I wanted him to live and feel what I had and deteriorate his self esteem…..AND YES>……I’m sure he has ‘flashbacks’ or asks his new supplies if he smells or whatever……has bad breath from gut rot…….

I have a GF who is obsessive about washing her hands…..when we are on the phone….and she washes her hands it sounds like the same sound……splash splash, splash, splash……I cringed one time and i said to her…>WHAT are you doing????? She said washing my hands……I said….can you make a different sound, like rub differently……I told her the story…..and she was like OMG….I trigger you when I wash my hands……WE LAUGH SO HARD….but I have this vision of him straddleing the sink and ….splash splash, splash splash…..
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:01am
ErinBrock says:

Good night SKY and Heaven……..
Sleep well…..and don’t dream of my butt!!!!!

Henry….It’s funny…..for all my flaws and horridness……Anytime I was away for longer than he thought was necessary…..I was always accused of having a boyfriend….
Now….how in the hell could I have a boyfriend with all the smells and fat and skankness I was possessing?
Hmmmm……..Yes..insecurities and PROJECION! Gotta keep the supply in line!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:04am
ErinBrock says:

We will never have enough money, looks, personality, smells, perfection, clothing, to ever make any ‘CLuster B representative’ happy……..
HENCE not trying……
We will always be belittled and never live up to any expectations……

Okay hens…..I’ll go back into my conservative box now…..
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:11am
persephone7 says:

Erin – you DO work every angle and it’s something I really like about you. For me, this last relationship still is too fresh, and there seemed to be some real
feeling in him so I can’t just start putting out specific details about him and myself. It’s something I have to absorb for myself, let it fall into place with
just me. I do remember having a man pull out during sex one time though, he was probably a narcissist looking back and just a very depressed person, and
he wasn’t critical of me at the time but I remember just being incredulous! There I was, loving him – what I thought was body and soul, and he just casually
did that to go use the bathroom – I realize nature calls but his attitude about it was so cold – I was about 22 and it just crushed me! And I continued being infatuated with him, even after he slipped hash oil in my coffee one day without my knowledge – I was at least smart enough about that to know this wasn’t a road i wanted to go down, but as they say, what a royal jerk! My boundaries had so many gates and openings, he just went for it!

And I’ve had some nice guys but my share of jerks since, always thinking there’s something bright and shiny there if I can just polish it up… Heading for bed now, sweet dreams to all.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:11am
ErinBrock says:

Persephone:
Thanks sweet…..If anyone can take ANYTHING at all from my journey……GREAT!!!!
I totally understand we all post as we feel comfoy, and I encourage that……This is how we should LIVE our lives….on our own comfort levels!!!
I think……we know ourselves best…..and we all should do whatever we feel is ’safe’ for us….when/where and how. Never step out from the personal safety……never compromise yourself for anyone….EVER!!!
Sometimes people will learn and get what they need from other experiences solely.
Again….we all do what we need for US….this is the beauty of online…..
Can you believe what we learn in life??????
DANG!!!
Get some rest, have pleasant dreams and love yourself always!!!!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:23am
shabbychic says:

EB, I think you are fabulous!!!!!!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 1:41am
geminigirl says:

Skylar, have you heard the one about the little girl, who asks her Grandma to do a frog impression? “No dear, I dont think I can do that, but why do you ask?”
“Well, Grandma, Mom says that when you croak, we get all your money!”
Back to the big bad bear in Erins money pit. he picks up the can of bear spray, sprays his fur with it, and then says,”WTF, Bear Spray! I thought it said Hairspray!” LOL. keepin them coming!
Love and {{{HUGS!}}}to all of you! Gem.XX
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:23am
Kathleen Hawk says:

This is for Star and Skylar and anyone else who is struggling with emerging memories without a therapist to help. I’m just going to tell you how I got through it. I had a therapist, who really said some of the right things, and I’ll tell you about that too.

After I got rid of the S boyfriend after five horrible years, and I decided to figure out what was wrong with me and fix it, I developed a technique for working with my feelings. I would just sit with them, as though they were a friend in pain, and listen to them. The feelings had lots of words — stuff I used to think was just noise in my head – but when I started to listen to them and take them seriously, I started to learn what was underneath them. What I was really mad about. Or what I was really afraid of. And one layer would evaporate to the layer beneath it, and then I would sit with that one and listen.

I had visited a therapist at the beginning of all this, but decided I wanted to work on my own. She said I could come back when I was ready. And at some point in all this onion-peeling, I realized that I was getting to a layer that just terrified me. I didn’t know what it was, although I suspect it had something to do with my incest background. But it felt like a great black tsunami roaring up behind me, and so I called up the therapist and started to see her again.

I had always been able to talk about what happened to me. But in very general terms. I had very few memories of that period, and those were snapshots that illustrated the way I talked about it. All very superficial and cleaned up to be able to tell someone without upsetting them more than necessary. I didn’t want to upset myself either, so this was all the information that had survived on a conscious level.

In therapy, I not only began to deal with more specific and harsher memories, but I began to re-experience myself as I was then. How I felt and what was going on around me.

My therapist reassured me that the memories were rising because I was ready to revisit them and reconsider what they really meant. Every session, I would ask her if I was doing okay, and she would tell me that I was definitely moving in the right direction. Her reassurances kept me from being afraid of what I was going through, and gave me some confidence in my own ability to process it and use the memories to get better.

The real turning point for me was one session that my therapist later said she wish she could have taped. She asked me about how I was feeling about what I was remembering. I got out of the chair and started pacing around her office, telling her how awful this was for me, to have to live this double life and be afraid that I would be ruined forever and never have a healthy relationship with any man, because I would never be able to tell the truth about my life. I was being forced to lie and I would be a liar for the rest of my life. I talked about how unfair it was, and how I felt like my life was being destroyed day by day. And how I had no choice because I was the one thing that stood between my father and my other siblings, and how I had to protect my mother’s sanity.

That wasn’t the woman of 50+ years talking. It was the girl in her earliest teens. I knew it when it was happening, and she was as real and alive in me as she had been back then. I was speaking her, but I was also listening to her. I could see why she made all the decisions that I was living with now. To hide who she was. To pretend to be someone else, someone who nothing had ever happened to. To be totally independent because she could never trust anyone to love her if they knew her, but also to search endlessly for someone who would protect her.

All of that was huge. As was much of the work I did with that therapist, who was a specialist in adult survivors of childhood abuse. But what came after that was even more important to my healing. She asked me how I felt about what my father did to me. What I felt about his behavior.

I gave her the usual answer I gave people, because I didn’t want to seem like a bad person. I talked about his terrible upbringing and the stresses of his life at the time. I talked about how I loved him despite everything that had happened, although I never stopped being afraid of him. I never got mad. I didn’t know how to get mad, except very occasionally in my life when so much happened to me that I finally felt justified in blowing up. I could count them on one hand.

She very gently ask me if I had considered what he stole from me. I just looked at her blankly. I’d never thought in those terms. I asked her, like what? Well, she said, you were the most beautiful that you would ever be in your life. He stole that. He stole your high school years and the normal development toward becoming an adult woman that would have happened in that time. He stole any sense of safety you had in your own home, any chance of a normal relationship with the rest of your family. He stole your freedom to be honest about your experiences or your feelings. He stole your pleasure in who you are. That’s a start.

I was so accustomed to denying that what any of this mattered. My strategy for survival had been to bury all this and pretend I was untouched. So I heard her words, but it was as though I heard them from a great distance. It was weeks before I gradually began to think about the things she’d said, and imagine whether they might be true. I’d never thought about any of this, much less faced the idea that something had been stolen from me. That I had real and irretrievable losses.

But when I did, a whole collection of things happened almost all at once. One was the simple but very large realization that something HAD happened to me. Another was the realization that I had been harmed, not just then, but in ways that rippled forward to warp my life in ways that I never imagined at the time. I’d understood some of it, but not the strange ways that my coping mechanisms would keep me from understanding my own feelings, lead me into deeply dysfunctional and unhappy relationships, and keep me from ever really owning my life.

But terrible as all that sounds, I experienced it from a different position that I’d ever felt before. Because for the first time, I felt like I was inside of me, looking at my own life and owning it. It was a troubled life, but it was beginning to make sense. And I looked at the family I had at that time, and particularly my father’s behavior, and for the first time, I began to stop feeling responsible for everything. For protecting everyone, for making excuses for him, and I just felt my own experience, how it was for me. It was like coming into my own skin.

I had done a lot of work on my own in getting over the sociopath. And I’d even finally worked my way through to an angry phase, when I finally realized that there was no excuse of his behavior and I had a right to get made. It was my usual style of getting mad, after I could pile on enough justification which was a thousand times more than it would take an emotionally healthy person to get angry.

But this was different. I looked at what happened to me as a teenager, and for the first time, I said, “No. This has nothing to do with me. It happened to me. It was terrible and it hurt me. But I didn’t do this to myself. And I refuse to take any responsibility for it. I was afraid and ashamed and I worried that it had something to do with some failure on my part. But it didn’t. I was treated horribly, not just in a parent-to-child way, but in a way that no human being should treat another. I was forced to do what I did not want to do. Important things were taken from me. And I don’t care what his or anyone problems were, this was wrong, and I’m not collaborating with this anymore.”

This was a kind of anger I’d never experienced before. It was a kind of anger out of my soul. I keep saying that I was inside myself, but it’s really important. I realized that there was a difference between what was inside of me and what was outside of me. And all this stuff that had happened was outside of me. At the time, I was a dependent child, and it caused me to regress emotionally, because it made me so afraid. But now, as an adult with a sense of how children should be treated I was outraged. And from that new position inside of myself, I looked at the behavior of the people in my history and in my current life and I judged them. And this too was new for me.

This was the beginning of my true angry phase. I had a lot of backed up anger, and I did a lot of raging, blaming and judging. Some of it definitely went to the right causes. Other people got singed by my very prickly self.

But that soul anger was the fuel that rocketed me out of depression and self-hatred, and started me looking at the world in terms of what I wanted and didn’t want, and taught me how to defend myself without a protector.

But the most important thing it taught me — and it took me a while to understand it — was that there was a part of me that had been saying no and fighting back all along, a part of me where my identity hadn’t been corrupted by fear and shame. It had been locked away, because saying no involved admitting what had happened to me and how serious it was, and my survival strategy was to go la-la-la it’s wasn’t really anything important. That is, to lie to myself and everyone else. In other words, there was a me that wasn’t changed. It was hurt, but it could heal. It had lost things, but nothing that couldn’t be recovered, if I faced the losses.

I wasn’t what happened to me. I was me.

So to conclude this, I think that these emerging memories are so scary, not because of the events which admittedly can be shocking and unpleasant, but because of the questions they raise about who we are. Was there something wrong with us? Is there something wrong with us today? Do we need to feel ashamed? Do we have a right to have our own thoughts and protect ourselves? Hard as it was, I found my answers by visiting these memories and learning what they told me about what I was really dealing with and how I handled it.

Now that I have a more clear memory of how it was for me in those dreadful years, I understand my own patterns of behavior a lot better. I also know that I was strong and courageous, and the fears that I lived with that forced me to be so be so strong and brave were also real. It was brave of me to endure it, and brave of me to split my personality in two to attempt to have a normal life. And I can also see the clear difference between my circumstances then and now. Then I was trapped. Now I can choose. I just had to grow up into learning how to do that.

That was really what my recovery was about. I’m sharing this story, hoping that it will offer something to those of you who are dealing with these emerging memories, maybe encourage you to face them with the same courage you showed when you buried them so you could survive and move on. My therapist said our brains have their own wisdom. The memories come back when we’re ready toth them. In my experience, that certainly was true.

Love –

Kathy
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 3:38am
geminigirl says:

I think its great that we can go from funny to sexually frank to talking about our deepest secrets. This is a GREAT place!
Where else could we go and share everything like this? And we can move from onesubject to the other , seamlessly, because we love and trust each other. We are all learning, and all healing. Maybe were at diffirent stages, but it doesnt matter. We all “GET” each other, and we know we are safe here,{except for the odd troll, but they are wayer off a ducks back!}
Thank you Kathleen, for sharing your courageous story. It takes guts to go into these secret places in our brains that we have pasted “no go” signs over for so long. I admire you so much for this.Thank you, and love to all of us. {{HUGS!!}} Mama Gem.XX
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 4:29am
skylar says:

3AM and Iwoke up, been trying to sleep since then…
4:30AM now.
Kathleen,
how did that anger help you learn to grow up?
As a teenager, I sensed I was being abused and I was so angry. But after I met the P, I learned to love (him) and forgive and love everyone else. Now I find out it was all a lie.
He was a lie, the P-parents never changed, they were all faking love. How strange and unsettling is that?

Maybe my anger was interrupted. Should I have kept the anger?
Yes, if I had kept the anger, I wouldn’t have stayed with the P for so long.
No, I DID get angry with the P and he fed off of it. He USED it to keep me off balance and trapped.
Either way, I’ve become angry again. I see the p-parents for what they are and what they took from me. As an infiant, there is no other time in your life when you are going to be more lovable, but they didn’t love me. Because they were selfish P’s. But still it leaves a person feeling less than. That feeling stays with you. How do you get rid of it?

I don’t think anger is the key. That’s what the P did and look how he turned out. Forgiveness might work, but I’m not there yet. Has anyone had any success with forgiveness making the feelings of being unloveable go away?
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 7:54am
kim frederick says:

Morning, Sky. Yes, I think forgiveness is key, but I don’t know how possible forgiveness is, until You’ve really experienced the anger.

There was a local marriage counselor on TV the other morning talking about our “”emotional trash cans.” He said that anger is the airtight lid we put on it to keep the stink down, but we carry it around with us, where ever we go. We can’t really deal with it or begin to get rid of it until we take the lid off. Then of course we have to deal with the stench, and all the nastiness of it. The hurt, the loss, the confusion, the frustration. Abandonment, unmet needs, sadness. All of it!

As far as forgiveness goes, I think if you can feel compassion for the damaged person who was also once a child, who is not ABLE to love you, then, it no longer has anything to do with your lovability, but becomes a deficit in the charactar of the person who hurt you!!

Of course, it’s easier said than done, and first you have to deal with the hurt and anger.

I hope you can go back to sleep and have sweet dreams.

EB, I hate your S for saying that to you!! I believe my deepest wounds are sexual, and the damage is irrepreble. The thought of sex makes me physically ill, just because of experiences like yours. God bless you. God bless all of us.

Heaven, don’t apologize. You’re just fine.

Hi Shabby, found anything, yet? Hi Henry. Hi Gem. Bear spray? Shame on you.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 9:00am
witsend says:

Skylar,
I don’t believe it is the anger itself that helps us grow. Growth happens more in the processing of feeling the anger and then finally in its release.

Most of the time when we feel anger, we know what is on the “surface” but as we peel back the layers we find where the serious anger comes from. Or as Kathleen calls it soul anger.

When you look at the Xp and see his anger and see how he “turned out”…..It is like comparing apples to oranges. The personality disordered individual is not looking for growth or processing childhood pain, or on a healing journey of anykind.
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 9:01am
kim frederick says:

And then there is the anger at ourselves, and then the forgiveness. That’s where I’m at, and not managing very well, I’m afraid…..
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 9:16am
OxDrover says:

Dear Guys,

Now that I have my sleep patterns back to “normal” (going to bed at 11 or so) and getting up earlier than I was (7 or so) you guys are really rolling in the evenings with your “bunking parties” and “sleep overs” or I guess I should say SLEEP-LESS overs. LOL

kathy, I think we ALL have to peel back the layers of the nastiness that we have buried, and feel the feelings instead of ignore them. My egg donor’s way of handling things was “lets pretend none of this happened.”

All my life that “let’s pretend” crap had been the way our family handled bad behavior, and I KNEW THAT but when she actually SAID it out loud after the chaos of my DIL and her BF the Trojan Horse P trying to kill my son C and stealing the $24,000 from my egg donor (which theft I had predicted) and I went to her to talk about it she said, “Oh, I only want to think about good things, let’s just PRETEND NONE OF THIS HAPPENED”–pretend she had not D & D’d me, pretend she had had no pity on me when I begged her on my knees that THESE people were trying to rip her off financially, and she looked at me with the most scornful look in the world. Nah, I was never going to pretend she had not done that, and let her off the hook. Let her off the hook for LYING and trying to place the blame on ME. I was the ONLY one in the entire situation who was NOT lying and hadn’t lied, hadn’t tried to rip her off and we were going to “pretend it never happened”? NO ANY MORE.

That was a turning point for me.

Back when I was working in an adolescent in-patient setting with mostly “conduct disordered” teenagers or Borderline Personality Disordered teenagers, one minute they would be trying to stab you with a pencil and fighting like a woolverine, and the next few minutes they would lput their arms around you and tell you how wonderful you were, and how you were their best friend. they did NOT get it that you could not one minute try to seriously hurt or kill someone and ten minutes later “pretend it didn’t happen.”

If you ACCIDENTLY fart at the dinner table I WILL pretend it didn’t happen, but if you get mad and get up and turn the dinner table over and throw a chair through the window I am not going to “pretend it didn’t happen.”

We have to acknowledge our behavior and accept responsibility and accountablity for it, that is the way it should be. So why should we give THEM a “pass” on this?

I treated you like a piece of dog doo because I was mad. I treated you badly and lied to you because I was tricked by someone else. I treated you badly and x, y, or z because this or that. NO!

There are NO excuses for their behavior and there are no excuses for ours.

I let you say horrible things to me because I loved you. I let you beat me more than once because I am caring and wanted to give you a second chance. After you raped me, I pretend you were a good father because I didnt’ want anyone to know what a piece of crap you were. I let you get away with it because I was ashamed.

No, we can’t excuse their behavior and we can’t excuse our own. All we can do is accept responsibility for OUR behavior and stop doing things that allow others to abuse us and go scot free. We must accept our OWN behavior, our own poor choices (allowing someone to abuse you because you love them is a poor choice, let’s face it) We don’t have to go ON making poor choices though, and we don’t have to go on feeling SHAME for THEIR bad behavior. It is NOT our bad behavior.

We can forgive ourselves for poor choices (allowing them to continue to abuse us) and we can forgive them for doing it, BUT “forgiveness” is not the same as approval…when I forgave myself for allowing continual abuse from several Ps, I did NOT approve of that behavior in myself. When I forgave them for DOING abuse to me, I did not approve of that behavior. I simply got the BITTERNESS against them and the bitterness against myself OUT OF MY SYSTEM. I can’t change the past things I did. I can’t change the past things they did, but I NO LONGER ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE. NC is what keeps them from continuing to abuse me (because they will NOT repent or change) but I DID REPENT AND DID CHANGE.

There are several “techniques” that can be used theraputicly to handle this transformation in yourself. Like Kathy suggested, or like Aloha and I did, which was to “talk’ to them, to say the things we wanted to say to them as we drove down the road. Or, you can put an empty chair in front of you, and sit in one facing it and tell the chair (like they were in it) what you think, and waht you feel. Express your feelings of hurt and anger etc. to the chair. It won’t help the P to understand (they don’t understand because they can’t and don’t want to) but it will help YOU to understand how you feel. and you can talk without interuptions and lies.!

As you peel back the layers of what was done TO you, and how YOU FEEL about it, and accept that it DID happen, and that it wasn’t fair or right, and accept that it did c hange the way you responded, the decisions you made, but they were your decisions and you did them, and you can forgive yourself, and forgive the past.

You can also put your younger self in the “chair” and talk to him/her, and tell him or her and “listen” to him or her, or even change chairs and let the younger you talk to the you of today. You can work these things out, and fortgive him/her, and comfort him/her and also your NOW self.

The whole point is to come to peace with that younger you, and the things that younger you did or felt, and the Now you and how you feel today.

Accepting that TODAY I can be what I want to be and I do NOT have to let myself live in regret and bitterness either against them or against myself. I think the biggest and best part of Christianity is that it fosters a sense of forgiveness, for others and for ourselves. If God can forgive me, why can’t I forgive myself?

King David in the old TEstement was not a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination. He committed adultery with another man’s wife, then arranged to have that man murdered in war. Yet, the Bible says David was a “man after God’s own heart.” WHY was David who had done such terrible things a “man after God’s own heart?” Because when he was CONFRONTED with his sins, he sincerely REPENTED and acknowledged his sins and did the best that he could do to NOT repeat that sin.

If we bear a grudge against ourselves or others, it taints our spirits. We must learn from our mistakes, and like David, acknowledge them and then FORGIVE OURSELVES. As the customs of the Jews was at the time, they put on “sack cloth” and “ashes” to show their repentence and sorrow, but they didn’t wear this forever, after a period of time they got up and WASHED THEIR FACES of the ashes, and put on regular clothing.

We, instead, I think many times continue to ware the hair shirt and ashes the rest of our lives because we made poor choices in the past.

Get up and WASH YOUR FACES and live your lives in JOY AND PEACE because you are NOT the same person who allowed this person, this psycholpath, to abuse you. You have changed, they have not. You are stronger, wiser, and have owned your mistakes, your poor choices, and can now live a life of JOY! Free from the ties to the abuser. That is my wish and my prayer for us all!
(Report abusive comment)

Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 11:15am
Kathleen Hawk says:

Skylar, anger helped me grow up, because it finally enabled me to absolutely difference what was me and what was them.

Anger is not the end game. It’s a stage. But it’s a crucially important one if you’re dealing with identity issues, such as feeling less-than, feeling unlovable, feeling responsible for everyone else’s emotions, and all the other ways our identities are not clearly definitions of ourselves, but reactions to other people’s issues.

When I wrote the piece above, I realized that there are some other people who respond to situations like mine by magnifying anger and becoming early warriors. When I saw the movie “Monster” about Eileen Warnos, I could understand how and why she was reacting the way she did. But that’s not what happened to me. I buried anger, and found safety through acquiescence. And so my task was to resurrect my healthy anger.

But you asked how to use it. You use it by welcoming the clear-sightedness it brings, the certainty that you are not doing this to yourself, and the understanding that your anger is the voice of your own survival instinct telling you that what is happening is harmful to you. It may be in a small way, just an aggravation, or it may be a literal threat to your survival.

Some people confuse anger with violence or abuse. Violence may be what we decide to do to deal with the situation, but usually it is not. When faced with a situation that is harming us, in most cases the logical and appropriate response is to stop it, fix it or get out of it.

People who are first learning how to experience anger in a natural way tend to have a lot of backed-up anger. I did, and I suspect that you would too, given what you said about your background. This means you have a lot of old stories that haven’t been dealt with with stopping it, fixing it or leaving it.

Some of these situations are just over and in the past. And the way to deal with them is simply to revisit them, clarify for yourself that it wasn’t you that created the situation, take a new mental position about how you want to view it now, and make a decision to take back whatever you lost in terms of your relationship with yourself. In the childhood situation you mentioned, this may be recognizing that you were lovable, deserved more love and support, and committing to give it that small child in your memory as your own parent. You know what you lost, you know what you wanted, and you are the only one in a position to talk to that part of yourself to provide nurture and reassurance.

The deep problem with these situation is that their effect is not just to make us questions whether we were entitled to better treatment, but also to make us lost trust in ourselves because we have compromised our legitimate needs in order to survive. So the task here is really to rebuild that inner trust. To gradually rebuild our own trust in our commitment to take care of ourselves. Not just in a defensive way against potential sources of harm, but in a warm and loving way that restores the creativity and joy in living, the sense of experiment and play that is normal to the child’s experience. It’s a two-sided thing. We learn to defend ourselves so that we can pick up the thread of personal development that we dropped when the trauma (including lack of nurture) forced us to become too grown-up too fast.

Anger is really about self-nurture. We pay attention to our own anger, and we understand that it means we need to do something to take care of ourselves. If we continue to feel anger, we’re getting a message from our substrates that there is still something that we haven’t attended to. As I said, some of it may be past and gone, but the alert messages are still coming. And they will keep coming until we find their source and settle within ourselves that we recognize the issue, that we are ready to defend ourselves if something similar arrives in our lives again, and if there were losses, that we are committed to restoring ourselves to whatever we lost (in identity terms).

For me, this meant going back and recognizing that none of this was my fault. That it was simply my bad luck to have parents at that time who created this situation for me. I dealt with it as I dealt with it at the time, because it was the best I could. But now, looking at it, I can see that if it happened to me now, I would stop it, fix it or get away. In identity terms, I recognized that although my coping mechanisms at that time proved dysfunction when I was out of that family and living as an independent adult, they didn’t mean that the fundamentally healthy, smart, loving and lovable person that I was before had changed. Neither the thing that happened to me, nor the coping mechanisms I adopted, were who I was.

As far as anger itself went, I did have to go through what I called my “firethrower phase.” I had a lot of backed-up anger and when it finally emerged, there was a time when I was extremely prickly to put it mildly, and was arguably paranoid about everyone’s intentions around me. I saw intent to harm or criminal thoughtlessness where it probably didn’t exist, or existed in a much smaller way. But unpleasant as that may have been to the people around me, it was also a long-delayed developmental stage for me. I was learning be perceptive to threats and to react to them immediately.

That overblown period passed as I found the real sources of my anger. I worked very hard at this at the time, questioning myself about what I was really angry about. I could see from other people’s reactions to my reactions (not the S, but people I had trusted before) that they found my reactions too extreme. So this feedback helped me a lot to understand when I was redirecting anger that should have been going to another source, the real source. And that kept me searching in myself for the real causes.

The real causes — the insights that defused this explosive stage — tended to be just a few major things from my deep past. I don’t even know if my memories were totally accurate. They were more iconic. It turned out that the one that sorted me out more than anything was one dating from my early childhood, when my mother, rather than protecting me from my father’s unreasonable and violent rages, told me that it was my responsibility not to make him angry

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Finding meaning in the betrayal by the sociopath

388 Comments to “Finding meaning in the betrayal by the sociopath”

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