All that glitters is not gold
By Ox Drover
Going through my family photos I came across one of my two oldest sons. We had gone on vacation to Montana to visit a friend for the summer in 1981. They were about 10 and 11 years old. My friend took us around to all the local sights and showed us some old gold mines dug back into the solid rock.
In the photo made that summer, I saw my sons, both kneeling on a huge rock about five feet from the edge of a stream of rapidly flowing water, with a gold pan in their hands. My friend had put a handful of sand from the edge of the creek into the wok-shaped pan and showed them how to swirl the sand in the bottom and let the rushing water wash away the lighter sand, and told them that the heavier gold dust would stay in the bottom of the pan.
They were so excited to be panning for real gold and before long they started to see flakes of glitter in the bottom of their pan. It shone like the sun and made them very excited and they were talking about all the things they would buy with the fruit of their efforts. GOLD!!! REAL GOLD!!!
When they had a teaspoon or so of golden dust in the bottom of their pans, they could come to the bank of the river and put it into a plastic container. Then they would scoop up more sand and go back out on the big rock in the river’s edge. They worked for hours digging and panning for gold dust, excitedly washing the sand they dug, and keeping the glittering dust in the bottom.
As my friend and I sat on the bank of the creek watching the boys enjoying their experience, he leaned over to me and said, “I don’t have the heart to tell them it is fool’s gold they are panning.”
I sort of chuckled that day, and never really did tell the boys that their work was for naught, or that what they thought was a treasure trove of real gold was nothing but pyrite, or “fool’s gold.” Eventually, I think they figured it out for themselves, and my oldest son still has a small jar with the fool’s gold in the bottom.
I was thinking about “fool’s gold,” in terms of false things that glitter and mimic “the real thing” but are, in truth, worthless. A psychopath’s claims of loving us, their claims that they care for us, are “fool’s gold,” because in fact, they don’t have the capacity to love or care.
The miner who came back to “Deadwood” with a big poke (bag) of fool’s gold would be the laughing stock of the town for a while. Sometimes we may feel that we are laughing stocks or fools for having accepted the “fool’s gold” of the psychopath’s “love” for us as real.
Just as my sons were unable to distinguish the fool’s gold from the real gold, we are sometimes unable to distinguish what is real and what is not.
Experience, however, is a good teacher if we will listen to it. Having seen real gold dust, it is easy enough to compare the different sparkle of fool’s gold from the real thing. Having been fooled once (or twice or more) by the fake glitter of false love, we can use this knowledge to protect us. As the old saying goes, and it is so true, “not everything that glitters is gold.” As we learn that everyone who says, “I love you” doesn’t really, we learn to pick the real from the false.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
heavenbound says:
Thank you Ox Drover for sharing this memory and for the great comparison. I agree. It took my oldest sons maturing love and respect for me to actually give me the experience of real gold. Now I can tell the difference between the real and the fake. I have a very loving brother and mother and don’t mean to deminish their value at all. I think as we get older in an abusive environment we grow more likely to have a more selfish love for one another. We are in such need for validation and love that we begin to offer a love based on it earning love. Sort of like as small children we love those we rely on for our needs to be meet. ?. I don’t know but there is something so unselfish about the way he loves and respects me that is gives me a clearness about love that I’ve never known. I can learn alot from him. I hope to offer that kind of love to others and will be looking for that in any future relationship. I hope this is understandable, I mean nothing gross in the comparison to my son…it’s not romantic love of course. It’s real love.
Any way, Thank you very much. This just brought to mind something I hadn’t realized. Now I know what I’m watching for!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 4:13pm
alohatraveler says:
I think the difficulty it that there are many people out there that have not experienced real true love. When you have nothing to compare your experience to, it’s harder to know a fake.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:16pm
Cherre says:
I’m 5 days NC; the longest so far.
I’ve taken almost all of the steps that have been suggested so far. Thank you all. I just wanted to let you all know that.
I just keep reading and this was a new article. Ox Drover, I really appreciate the imagery with which you wrote this!
“Sometimes we may feel that we are laughing stocks or fools for having accepted the “fool’s gold” of the psychopath’s “love” for us as real.” This is where I still am.
I actually began a new project the other day and I worked on that most of today so I feel like I did something constructive as well as enjoyable. I experienced almost continuous intrusive thoughts of PoiSoN but I recognized them, and just said, “Yeah” to myself and kept going.
I’m not very good yet at recognizing the verbal tactics and ploys that he uses. I did notice that the way he ends things when I’m not cooperating with him (“Don’t worry about me, I’ll be ok” or, “but I’ll get by”) are appeals for me to feel guilty and sorry for him. The pity ploy. I feel heartless and cruel for not responding to him.
I don’t like to hurt people and this is a major characteristic of mine that he’s trying to manipulate. If I didn’t know the truth of our situation, I would believe him (the poor wounded creature). He is very good at what he does.
My emotions are very conflicted right now.
I ordered “Women Who Love Psychopaths” last week and I sure hope that it arrives soon!
I also see that I can spend too much time “learning” about all of this. It puts my focus on him though in a sort of disguised way. I’ve been focusing more on my children and spending time with them. I have to admit that the last couple of weeks I’ve been too distracted with the realization of falling for the “fools gold” again. Its amazing how much relief from anxiety watching the clouds and making up stories about them brings!! lol
He drove by I don’t know how many times when I was outside playing with the kids. Then sent me an email (though I didn’t read it until later). I’ve received more than 20 “Goodbye” letters, notes, text, etc. this week. I was thinking that I should show it to you. Okay, I’m going to do that but just remove the names. (I guess I don’t need to mention that this is not quite an account & his compassionate actions are exaggerated a bit. LOL)
Yes, I did send a very mean text, two of them. The last 2 things that I said to him were horrible.
“hey, i dont know why im writin you but i know well never talk again so im sayin goodbye. i cant tell you my feeling right now cause there are no words. the only thing i can say is after time ill forget the preserve, the meetins at the ramp, the star the you kissin my chain and sayin goodnight to me even though i wasnt there the day in wesp palm bch or the day i rubbed you for hours when you were in pain and lots of other things. ill remeber the last phone all the text messages and the im’s which were beyond cruel. i used to think we were one hear one mind soulmates and best friends. i know now were not. i always said i aint like nobody and i aint. were not the same cause i could NEVER do what you did to me. not even to someone i hate. im not yellin at you im just sayin. if we were the same id do that to you back but i cant i just cant. i was never embarassed bein with you never felt shame it was so comfortable but i dont want to put into word the text you said about me and****and now im embarrased and ashamed. i know what you think of me and how you made fun of me and i cant look you in the eyes and not feel ashamed again. well you said you drove a wedge and you did right through my heart. every time i saw you today my heart dropped i wanted you to talk to me but i knew i couldnt talk back i just cant. i could go on for hours but whats the use. you cant unring a bell right? just wanted you to know in a million years you never know how i feel right now. guess cause i trusted you and let you in further than anybody i ever knew.thats my faoult i had the right intention just the wrong person. i want you to know i wish you no tears, no sorrow, no sadness and no pain. i hope someday i could forgive you i really do but aw you know. good bye *****”
I know that there are several common strategies he’s using here to get to me, I just don’t know what they are. I think if it makes me feel like I need to talk to him or respond to him in any way then it must be a ploy of some kind. He sounds so hurt and I sound so horrible. Is this normal guys? Is this what you all go through??
I sure hope that Witsend is okay. My prayers are with you and your son.
Actually, my prayers are with you all.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:18pm
Cherre says:
I don’t think I should have posted that letter. OOOPS!! I was not thinking ahead there.
What I was hoping for was that someone could help me identify the tactics so that I can begin to recognize them for what they are and not fall for them over and over.
I just don’t want to do this again!!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:38pm
skylar says:
Cherre,
ROTFLOL!! OH SOO TYPICAL! Are you sure you weren’t with my exP?? LOL. Did you ever read “the campfire of my love?”
I posted it here for everyone to see. LOL! It was my exP saying the same things to me as yours did to you.
He is trying to set the mood in your mind of a sad story of starcrossed lovers. That’s how he begins, with goodbye.
Then he must remind you of all the “good times”. That’s to soften you up. Then he throws a quick little dagger: he’s going to forget the good times, but he’ll remember those mean text messages you sent to hurt him.
He says: i could NEVER do what you did to me.
BULL F*CKING SH*T, HE DID WORSE, MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE. Sorry for yelling but my exP used the exact same words. These words, mean one thing: he is laughing as he types them. He is soooo amused with himself. Because he knows exactly what he is and what he’s done, and his words are the funniest joke he can think of. To accuse you of what he did is hilareous to him.
when he says: guess cause i trusted you and let you in further than anybody i ever knew
He is actually talking about how he conned YOU into letting him in further than anybody you ever knew.
Yes, the common strategies you are noticing are : the pity ploy, projection and camoflauging himself as a normal human being. Notice that he does not talk about your feelings? Notice that he doesn’t approach the horrible things he did to you? All of this is like a movie being directed for an audience. All glitter,no gold.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:46pm
Cherre says:
Thanks Skylar! I didn’t think that I was alone here.
Projection and camoflauging, huh? I wasn’t getting that but I knew it was something; I could “feel” that there was more going on here than “Goodbye”. I’m finally picking up on some of the pity plays because of how I feel when I hear it.
I was wondering about that ” I NEVER could” thing too. He wages psychological warfare, baits me and sets me up and then says that one seemingly onocuous thing that I blow up to. Its like, “Wow! What’s wrong with you? All I said was . . . etc.”
P.S. Don’t believe him LOL
Pizza’s here now and the night’s for fun.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 7:27pm
Betty says:
Oxy, you’ve really made me think – AGAIN! Thanks for this article.
I realized I could say now what love is not:
It does not make you walk on egg shells and feel braced for the next blow to fall; it does not make you feel stupid and worthless; it does not make you feel guilty for feeling happy (or for anything you feel); it does not make you feel you’ve failed if all life’s problems haven’t been solved, and the other person has been inconvenienced. It does not make you feel ugly physically, emotionally, or spiritually; it does not tear down your accomplishments or mock your vulnerabilities. It does not make you doubt your worth as a human being.
It’s still hard for me to say what love is, and I realized I saw it in action the other day:
An older couple were walking in the park ahead of me on the trail, and she dropped her cane. She said, “That was dumb,” and he said, “No, Honey; that was an accident.” Then he led her over to a bench and took her hand. “Anyway, now we get to sit here for a minute and appreciate the day.” He spoke to her with great kindness, respect, and acceptance, and you could see the trust and gentleness in their interaction. He even gently cued her not to be harsh with herself (she’d called herself “dumb”).
When you see it, it’s so obvious: two people who love and value themselves and each other. I realized that I can bring love — the real gold — into my life right now, today, by treating myself with respect, gentleness, and acceptance. More than ever, I believe we teach people how to treat us by the way we treat ourselves.
If you watch a snail, you’ll notice they leave a little slime trail behind them:. You can look at what’s left behind when you’re around n/ps and see the unmistakable “slime trail” left by these destructive, entirely self-involved people. While N/p’s are good at what they do (they’re great mimics, great at pretending), real love is unmistakable — and they don’t get it. Real love is constructive and leaves good things in its wake: stronger people and healthy relationships.
My hope is that in allowing myself to dig deep into the real thing, I won’t be fooled by fool’s gold again.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 7:48pm
Rosa says:
Betty:
“Slime trail”…I like it.
And, we all know that S/N/P’s definitely leave THAT.
“Slime Trail” = EVIDENCE (at least for some of us).
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 8:08pm
Cherre says:
Skylar: I can’t find the “campfire”. I ran a search and got no results. Do you recall where you posted it?
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 8:32pm
harmony says:
Hi to all
I very rarely post here but have been reading Lovefraud Blogs for 5 years in recovery form an 8 year expereience with a Sociopath.
Part of my recovery was obtaining an Assistant in Nursing Certificate to work with the aged and disabled. This allowed me to see that there were people far worse off than me.
I then decided to enter a counselling degree at the beginning of the year. The reason for this is I could not find a counsellor in my time of need who knew anything about Sociopaths. I ended up teaching my psychologist. I will one day whenn completed my counselling degree continue with studies on Psychology to become a Psychologist and specialise in thories or narcissists, socipoaths and psychopaths.
Two day ago I received i think the best news I have ever received on a personal level other than hoping my ex had gone to jail for fraud lol.
I received a High Distinction mark of 92% at university in Applied Psychology. I am not a sociopath lol but I sure am proud of myself.
I am letting you all know this because I understand the recovery process is a long and painful journey. However there is hope for eveyone on Lovefraud. Through sheer determination from a near death expereience of a Sociopath I managed to turn the most negative and destructive experiences in my life into the most positive. I just want you all to know and appreciate the painful journey ahead can actually be the most worthwhile. This is not something I could have written 5 years ago. I can now also say my experience with the S turned out to be a blessing in disguise up until now.
I think I will continue to read Loveraud for the rest of my life I have learnt so much on here.
I am with all of you on your journey of healing. One of the quotes I use mostly in my life today was one I oringinally found on Lovefraud (im sorry i cant remember who wrote it). “A little stumble is not a complete wipeout or fall”. Infering that I like most of you continued with contact off an on over the years till finally no contact. All the time keeping in mind that quote.
My blessings are with you all in your jouney of self growth and the recovery process. It is an unfortunate but necessary process to go through. Please keep in mind although it may be hard to see at present, the journey is actually a worthwhile one.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 8:50pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, thanks for a wonderful gentle lesson.
“I was thinking about “fool’s gold,” in terms of false things that glitter and mimic “the real thing” but are, in truth, worthless. A psychopath’s claims of loving us, their claims that they care for us, are “fool’s gold,” because in fact, they don’t have the capacity to love or care.”
It reminded me of the warning, “If it looks too good to be true, it probably is.”
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 9:19pm
henry says:
Ox another good read – thank you..Harmony I have seen your name here before , thanks for sharing your JOY with us …Betty that was a wonderful post and I laughed out loud when I read about the slime trail – I just about have all the slime trails cleaned up -
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 10:42pm
alohatraveler says:
Hello Harmony, (And Cherre)
Thanks for chiming in Harmony. You must be one of the 1st readers of LF! Congratulations on your honors in school! Truly!
You are in a position to understand these disorders far more than any collegue that is just reading about them in a book. Good luck with your path toward higher learning. I am doing the same with my Sociopath/Bad Man experience. I am working on my Masters of Social Work and then.. further down the road, I will strive for the LCSW. Maybe we can open a practice together… or travel and consult. :O) Imagine.
Your post provided the perfect contrast between you, further down the road of recovery, with Cherre, just breaking in her walking shoes.
BTW, Cherre, perfectly wonderful that you posted that letter. It reminds me of when I knew something was wrong with the Bad Man and his communication that seemed to tie me into knots.. but.. I didn’t know what it was. I found it difficult to describe but I was always unnerved and upset and defending myself. It was exausting! Your example reminded me of what I have learned and I am sure that out there is a reader silently nodding… *this helped me too*.. but doesn’t want to post. Hi Reader! We see you!
Your example was perfect and it gave another reader the opportunity to walk you through it… the patterns and the manipulations are so classic and eventually… quite boring!
Ho hum.. another Sociopath reading aloud from his Sociopath Handbook. How boring. HAHA!
Thank God for what I have learned here. Thank God!
I am strangely thankful for my lessons from the Bad Man. I am doing things with my life now that I never would have done if it wasn’t for the trainwreck he cause in my life… and I never let myself forget… I chose to ride that train long after I sensed danger. There are many lessons in that too and I haven’t missed them.
We are smarter, wiser, stronger for having gone through these experiences.. all of us.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:26pm
Aeylah says:
Oxy, thank you for the great post and sharing your memories with your young sons.
I remember similar memories with my sons when they were about the same age and discoverd fools gold…I remember thinking back then that the enourmous love I felt for them was like pure gold… and now thanks to the visualization of your post I can see that like a child I am desperatly wanting to beleive that what I have is real gold when he sais ILU, but in reality, it’s only fools gold that I have. The glitter and shine wont last forever, nor will the value, it’s only make believe….to play with for now…for as long as I can deni it’s not real gold.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:46pm
skylar says:
Hi harmony, congrats and thanks for making time in your life for helping humanity. As I live my life and see the horrible p’s on every side of me, I can still look on the community of LF and say, WOW! there they are, the super heroes. These are the good ones that make life worth living. I don’t have to turn into a P and I don’t have to kill myself.
Now all that’s left to do is move in together, so we can enjoy great people ALLLLLL the time.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:49pm
skylar says:
cherre,
I can’t find the campfire of my love letter. maybe someone else can remember where I posted it. LF makes it difficult to find previous posts but I think that may have been intentional, so that a crazy stalker can’t easily find one person’s posts.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:51pm
harmony says:
Alohatraveler
Thankyou for your response and congratulations it was sincerely appreciated. I am sure you will well succeed in you Masters and I wish you well with it. It is my belief that only people who have actually dealt with the NSP’s actually “understand” how difficult the process can be to recover.
Henry
Thankyou again. I remember your comment along the lines of “some old man is sitiing in his back yard thinking of you right now”. You are are very sweet and sympathetic to others.
Skylar
Thankyou also.
Please dont get me wrong I have my occassional thoughts like today I typed a letter not yet sent to the S. Saying I am now “a whole not a hole”. I remember when I first joined love fraud i wrote to Donna I was suicidal with guilt driven by the S. I found Without Conscience by Dr. R Hare a book I read, read and highlighted over the 5 years, which really helped. In the end i “actually got it” he didnt love me because he cant love me. that is sad in itself (I consider, imagine a life with no feeling at all), no good, no bad, no indifference. I actually feel some empathy for him but no sympathy.
I will continue to read all posts here as I have done for years I will understand your desperation, anger, rage, pain, hurt, suffering and all the other emotions you will go through in the process. However I will watch all of you grow here on Lovefraud reclaiming your self esteem, dignity, love, sanity and most especially peace and happiness within yourselves.
To Donna and everyone on Lovefraud thankyou and to those going through the process of recovery, recovering takes time and it is a process you need to go through. Love and big hugs to you all x
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 3:08am
alohatraveler says:
That was beautiful Harmony… (I just love the screen aemes people have here.)
I have been lucky enough to find a therapist that for some reason, understands the place I am in with my recovery and we have been able to have great conversations about what I have learned, how I apply my lessons, and also, how I have reached a stuck place.
I used to be so trusting.. and so naive. I miss that part of me… there are things we don’t want to know about in the world.. but once you know.. well, you know! What else is there to say?
I too am so grateful for this healing place.
Also, I am thankful to my friends that took me in when I really didn’t have anywhere to go. If it weren’t for them, I wouldn’t be where I am right now. They didn’t understand what I was going through but the knew it was something big.
They understood that they didn’t understand… and they wanted to help me anyway.
Have a wonderful day everyone and don’t forget to smell the roses and do a little something nice for yourself.
And if you are struggling with no contact, keep trudging forward. I know it’s hard but you can do it and it really is the only way to clear your mind of a most toxic experience.
Love from AlohaTraveler……………E
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 2:18pm
recovering says:
Hi harmony: Hello to you and congratulations on your new insights and accomplishments! I was very touched by your post, particularly your comment about finding some good out of the bad relationship experience, and now being able to use that new-found wisdom both personally and professionally.
I too have experienced a similar outcome — with stronger personal boundaries than I’ve ever had before, not just with the ex, but also with family, friends and colleagues through my business encounters.
Feels good not to have the weight of the world on my shoulders, especially since I’ve always been a responsible person since childhood — and felt I had to “do right” by all.
I maintain my values/integrity for the most part, but now I also hold others accountable and do not feel guilty when I say no, set boundaries and say goodbye to people who do not deserve the best from me.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 6:56pm
quest says:
Hi Folks . Great little story but I have been thinking about something that has had me a little puzzled for quite a while . It goes like this . Since my encounter with a pschopath , we broke up about 18 months ago , I have noticed that I am in a state of hyper awareness . Now I have read a little about this apparent change of consciousness but am wondering about what exactly is going on in order for this to come about and will it ever subside or am I stuck with it for ever. Being hyper aware I am sure has got something to do with the survival instinct and with what I know about psychopaths and how I seem to attract them like flies I am always on the look out for them , whether they be male or female . I am a heterosexual male so avoiding the female ones is to hopefully avoid the emotional turmoil that my psychopathic X put me through . Avoiding the male ones is to hopefully avoid a physical encounter that may be detrimental to my physical self . What I believe is that I can basically see pschopaths , as in instantly. I am sure that I am not infaliable , but even the smart ones I can figure out fairly quickly upon having a conversation with them . One of the things that is particularly bizarre is that if I am talking to someone I am particularly aware of their hand movements . Also there other things like how people walk or how they stand in fact all facits of body language . It is as if my subconscious has been tuned into all the aspects that make up psychopaths . It has become instinctive in that I do not even consciously realise sometimes that I am observing . So whats the problem you may ask . Well , being in this hyper aware state can make other people even normal ones uncomfortable . I would appreciate any input or perceptions any of you have on this subject
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 4:09am
Stayingsane says:
This reminds me of a song by ” the Only ones”
All that glitters is not gold and even serpents shine….
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 1:49pm
skylar says:
Quest, words are the red flags for me. I would love to sit around with you and play “spot the sociopath” LOL, we could have a great time! I feel like I can smell narcissism from miles away. I knew the balloon boy was a hoax from the first moment I heard about it.
But I hope that you aren’t confusing the N-supplies with the N’s since we have some similarities: we like excitement and are gregarious and emotional. A true sociopath is a liar, everything about them is like the serpent in the garden of eden. They will mirror you. They are hard to resist. They illicit emotion just like infants do. They do it without even trying.
My policy with suspected sociopaths is to give them rope and let them hang themselves. This means simply letting things follow their natural course while being fully aware to watch for signs. Definitely not letting your emotions get involved but don’t be standoffish either. I think that this will allow you to interact with all people in the same way, until the point where the P reveals him/her self.
I attract sociopath’s like bees to honey too. So, usually, if they are attracted to me, I KNOW, it’s a sociopath! LOL!
What is it about your mannerisms that you think is making everyone nervous around you. Do u have shifty eyes?
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 3:42pm
harmony says:
Dear quest
suicideandmentalhealthassociationinternational.org/commptsdsym2.html
this link may help you understand your hyperawareness. I have found that understanding something actually helps me to deal with the matter at hand.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 4:52pm
agnezz says:
I just want to say that finding this site has saved my life. I know that I am not mad, and that I am not alone and that means everything to me.
Thank you.
Agnezz
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 7:00pm
shabbychic says:
agnezz, hi, glad you found the site and hope you post again!!
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:39pm
quest says:
Hi skylar
can you tell me more about the mirroring thing and Harmony thanks for the link . I am not suicidal but there was some interesting observations on the site and explanations that I will have to think about . And Skylar I do not have shifty eyes that I am aware of . Being hyper alert does have its advantages however it can also be a bit of a pain as sometimes I find myself getting sick of it . I sometimes go hiking in areas where I know there could be grizzily bears and actually the concept of running into one of them hardly bothers me at all . Running into a psychopath is a different story . When I do part of my consciousness seems to kick into high gear . I guess its a kind of defense mechanism of some kind . I also find psychopaths quite fascinating as well so when I do run into one I find myself studying them. I guess what that is , is the desire to understand what makes them tick and to figure out what their origin is . Are they really human at all or are there perhaps 2 human species inhabiting this planet and interbreeding .
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:27am
Stayingsane says:
Quest
I think the fascination with P’s is the hallmark of intelligence and also it forces enlightenment as you dance with the devil in an almost hypnotic trance, much like a mouse under the gaze of a cat, or a rabbit frozen in the glare of headlights!
I love my cats. They are cold and ruthless when it comes to a mouse. Their usual kindhearted loving natures turns into an innocent glee as they play with the mouse (torture and conscience less joy at inflicting pain) No matter how much I scold them, take the mouse off them, scream and shout at them…they just look at me like the P that used to shadow my life, a look of ‘what is wrong with you? I’m only torturing something…you are crazy’
Psychopathy is interwoven intricately throughout nature yet when it comes to a human being displaying these traits we get terribly hurt. As a mouse to the cat…you have to get away, and stay away or end up torured and played with by a conscience free disordered person who really hasn’t a notion he/she is doing anything wrong and is puzzled what all the fuss is about.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 5:02am
Brilhancy says:
Skylar,
I love this:
“my policy with suspected sociopaths is to give them rope and let them hang themselves. This means simply letting things follow their natural course until the point where the P reveals him/her self”
The best strategy to let them finish with themselves….
I have done that not aware of what I was doing…but it worked…
I did not have to open my mounth or to lift a finger….just gave him the rope and let him go…..when the rope became tight around his neck he tried to use the elastic (to come back to me) but I was no longer there…I had climbed to a higher ground of self protection by pretending to be content and not interested on his activities.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 6:28am
skylar says:
Hi Quest,
Mirroring is when they take on your values, your habits, your preferences. They become like you so that you think they are your soulmate. They do this to someone who has a very strong sense of self.
My subconscience picks up on a P faster than I do. Sometimes, I’ll realize later that I’d seen a P, but did not realize it at the time. I was hypervigilent BEFORE I knew I was with a P, now that I know what to look for and what they are, I guess I’m not quite as hypervigilent, but I’m not sure.
To spot a P, just look for the person with infantile characteristics: needs lots of attention, selfish, selfcentered, envious, lies a lot.
But you still haven’t told me what is it about you that makes people aware of your hyperalertness? How does it show?
As far as what makes them tick: it is fear. an overwhelming fear from their childhood, that they learned to suppress by being fearless. Shame that they learned to suppress by being shameless. They feel that they aren’t loveable unless they trick you into loving them, but then they hate you for forcing them to trick you into loving them. You should have loved them unconditionally for themselves – except that they never gave you the chance because they never showed their true self, since they were too ashamed of it. And they feel this way toward all people, not just their “mark”. They envy everyone because they don’t have an identity, just a veneer. Therefore mimetic desire is still at work: they want what everyone else has and they want to be what everyone else is.
These are all infantile characteristics.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 9:28am
OxDrover says:
Hi, guys, thanks to all of you for your responses to my little story!
I read with interest all your comments, but just got back from a 3 day camp out with my living history group on the bank of the Arkansas river in Ft. Smith, AR and I am so bone-weary tried I have declared a HOLIDAY today to recover from all my FUN!
The past two weekends (prior to this) ahve been stressful for me and this weekend was a wonderful change and a chance to see some really great long-term living-history friends, explain history to children and adults who were interested in seeing “real” history —-
but I had one TERRIBLE thing haoppen—I LOST THE LIARS’ CONTEST for the FIRST time ever, and I told one of my most wonderful stories! The man who beat me was a 75 or 80 year old man (I am sure he cheated and there wasn’t a word of falsehood in his story!) but I was gracious to him about it—and even though I had PAID THE JUDGE and then I still lost, I think the whole thing was RIGGEd, otherwise I would have WON as I usually do, sooooo I am going to pay TWO of the judges next time to make sure I WIN, as I am ENTITLED to do! LOL
Looks like cherrie is doing well on starting NC–CONGRATULATIONS, but next time, I recommend you do NOT READ his communications and whatever–DO NOT RESPOND!!! YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY!!!!! ((((HUGS))))
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:05am
skylar says:
Oxy, welcome back.
I’m soooo sorry to hear about your tragic loss in the Liars’ Contest. If anyone is entitled to winning, it would be you.
Next year, you must remember not only to BELIEVE your own lies, but also to FALL IN LOVE with your lies. By following this advice you are sure to win next year. In the meantime, we will simply just tell everyone that you actually WON the contest, but since it is a LIARS’ contest, your win must include the lie that you lost. Right?
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 10:54am
shabbychic says:
Oxy, good to hear you had such a nice weekend, but what a crushing defeat in the contest!! Yes, next year you must do WHATEVER possiblet to win!!!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:04am
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
OF COURSE I REALLY WON!!! Who is their right mind would vote against the saintly person that I am!!!!??? LOL
In truth, I usually DO win that contest, as I usually have some really GOOD outrageous story, and I also “act out” the story line, using different voices for the different personages in the story, but the old man this year really did BEAT THE SOCKS OFF ME. He was a HOOT, though I did have several people come up and tell me they voted for me! It really was fun!!! I like to make people laugh! In another life I will be a stand up commediene! (is that how you spell it?) LOL
Actually today I am working on NOT FEELING GUILTY to send my son out to start unloading and unpacking (we took 4 tents,–I was offering 2 big ones for sale-) our clothing, cooking gear —all cast iron—blankets and so oon, so there is a big truck load of stuff to unload, but we did do well in our “living history yard sale” (we call it a “trade blanket” sale) and sold a ton of cast iron ware, dutch ovens etc. and then used that money to buy some leather we needed, and a Montana Peak hat for me from one of the hatmakers there. I have admired his hats for years but couldn’t afford one, so now I OWN ONE (it doesn’t take much to amuse me) a hand made to perfection unique, full beaver felt hat made just for me!!!! I spent a lot of time watching him make hats from a circle of felt through putting in the sweat band. He has done this for 30+ years, traveling around the country. I have known him for about 15 years and he always adds so much to an event. He is definitely a UNIQUE individual. That’s what I love about the living history reenactors though, the ones with great skills are always so bright and entertaining.
It was such a wonderful thing for me to “get out amonog them” and have such a good time and I NEEDED IT. Plus, I came home with a pocket full of money and only half as much stuff as we went with! I’m getting lazy and am no longer going to cook for 50-100 people at these events so I don’t need 10 dutch ovens. “Them there thangs is heaver-n-ell”
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:10am
shabbychic says:
skylar, campfire…
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....nd-rapist/
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:41am
skylar says:
SC,
HOW did you find it? I can never find anything around here.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:23pm
kim frederick says:
Dearest Oxy, I was wondering where you were. It sounds like a hoot, I love to camp. I have very special memorys of camping at Pacific Beach, and rising at the butt-crack of dawn, (low tide) to go out and dig razor clams. My mother then made the most incredable clam chowder over a coleman stove on top of a pic-nic table…………….:)
They told me my first camping trip was when I was 5 weeks old. No wonder it’s in my blood. But I digress. I still try to make clam chowder like my moms’, but with no access to razor clams, it’s just not the same. I’ll bet you don’t know what a gooey-duck is…..
I am making some super, super hot chili with three varieties of fresh peppers in it. It smells good. What do you put in yours that makes it special? How do you add your signiture?
Don’t feel too bad about losing your contest. Remember practice makes perfect, and if at first you don’t sucseid, try try again. (just like I did in try to spell suc…well, never mind. LOL.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:24pm
shabbychic says:
google: lovefraud skylar campfire
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 1:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Kim,
Yea, I had a wonderful time and I sure did need it after a couple of weeks of dealing with our friend’s drama queen wife so that my sons could have fun with HIM. LOL They both know I “sacrificed” a lot for them and our friend by hanging out with her in order for them to have fun with him, and he is quite ill (heart problems) so we may not have too many more opportunities and I don’t want to let HER spoil his and their enjoyment of each other so I was upfront with the guys about what a “sacrifice” I was making for them. LOL So son C stayed home and farm-sat while son D went with me to be my “indentured servant” and another young man friend of his showed up as well to be my second young man to “boss around”—-lift that box, tote that bale! LOL Oh, the JOYS of old age and decrepitude! NOT!!!!
On top of everything else we ran into (unexpectedly) some of our favorite camp mates from the last 15 years and so it was a big “family reunion” as well as meeting new friends. I made contact with another woman (a bit younger but not much) who camps with her horse (we didn’t have livestock at this one) and we are making plans to do a horse-treck in one of the state parks that is equine friendly and even though we will not be demonstrating for the public, we will dress “period” and camp “period” etc. so it will be fun to refine our attire and accutrements and get our “act” together!
It is “funny” (in some ways and in others not) that in our living history group one of the “leaders” is a very N-ish and I believe Psychopathic man who is SO manipulative and because of his manipulations etc. he has driven away many of our even founding members, and many others as well. there has been some talk for years about splitting off another group and I heard more of that this weekend, as because this man is so controlling a great deal of the REAL history, such as “draft animals” are not welcomed at events where they would be very appropriate and instead of being the real history that we are SUPPOSED to be displaying, a “citified” pseudo-histroy that is not true is being displayed instead, and I realize that large animals are NOT appropriate at some events becausxe of the facilities available, but even in ones that it is MOST APPROPRIATE AT he is causing problems because of his specific and very apparent dislike for ME because I have never been one to knuckle down to his high-handed rule.
I shouldn’t chortle I guess (but I will anyway! You know me!) one of his “henchmen” that has been a problem for years with outlandish and even dangerous behavior (I had him prosecuted by the law for pointing a very REAL muzzle loader at me at a park event and threatening to shoot me—he was arrested and tried) anyway, this guy that was his “henchman” was arrested for being in the house with his mother’s body—and she had been DEAD at LEAST TWO WEEKS.
So anyway, I have been vindicated by this guy’s further outrageous behavior besides pointing a gun at me. LOL
In addition, after the gun incident with his henchman, I was elected to the board of directors for a two year term and so was a constant thorn in the side of Mr. Control, excuse me DOCTOR CONTROL, he does have a PhD you know—-piled higher and deeper! LOL
It is amazing how, like Kathleen said, when you recognize these people doing their “control dance” or what ever their agenda is, that you can DEAL with these people without getting your EMOTIONS involved and just go for whatever goal you have. I no longer even get mad about this PhD jerk, but just sort of do my own thing, and if he prevents me from being able to attend an event, no big deal. He informed me recently that I couldn’t bring “livestock” (goats and a dog to herd and milk the goats) to an event that I have gone to for YEARS with the oxen which were 2,000 pounds each and which the parkk people welcomed, vs the 100 pounds of the “dangerous” goats! LOL I simply e mailed him back and said “NO problem, I was just doing this because the kids always like the goats and dog herding, and the milking demo, but it was a FREEBIE and I DO have so many where they are PAYING me to come that losing a freebie is no big deal, I’ll just do the PAID ONES.”
I do several demos that I get paid pretty handsomely for that HE does for FREE and doesn’t get paid (the same shows) and it rankles his nerves that I am so well received and ALSO paid when he isn’t. so it is a tit-for-tat thing, except the difference is, he grinds his teeth over my success, and I could give a rat’s behind about the few events he manages to keep my critters out of. The shame of it all though, is that the kids don’t get to do a hands on thing with something most of them will never get a chance to see in RL.
One show I have done continually (except the year my husband died) has about 400 kids that we demo too, and there are about 15 different demonstrations, including Dr. Control, and each kid is required to write a letter to their FAVORITE demonstrator and I have never received less than 150 letters out of the 3-400 kids, usually I get a bit over 50%.
The ONLY thing that has changed, is that I NOW DO NOT GRIND MY TEETH AT THIS GUY’S CONTROL TACTICS….I can’t change that, but I CAN change my REACTION to it. And, I am MUCH happier since I have changed MY reactions.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:28pm
harmony says:
Dear quest
Sorry I should have written it under hyperactivity which is under Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (sorry i was not infering you were suicidal). According to the site hyperactivity is a sympton of post traumatic stress disorder which is classified as a psychiatric injury on the site. Makes for some interesting reading.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:50pm
quest says:
Thanks Harmony I will check that out . Skylar , I think the thing that shows my hyper awareness is something to do with an aparent ability to see straight into a persons soul so to speak . I do this without really realising it . If I happen to be looking at a psychopath they get angry , if I am looking at what I believe is a normal person I detect an uneasiness in their expression . Its almost as if even normal people don’t want their inner self seen . Psychopaths on the other hand , realising that I can see inside go into attack mode . I have been able , on occasion , to freak out a psychopath as they are not use to people seeing straight through the mask in an instant . Of course the other thing that can happen is that I end up freaking myself out . It appears to be a two street . If I can see them they can also see me , seeing them .
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 10:14am
skylar says:
Quest,
What is it you are seeing? What does the P soul look like?
Also, you can throw them off by acting nice. They can’t tell when you are acting. Even the best of them are constantly looking for a cues to your emotions so they can mirror you. Just give them some fake emotions from your reservoir of real emotions. Real people might pick up on phoniness so unless you are sure it’s a P, don’t be fake, it will make you look like a P.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 10:36am
quest says:
Hi Skylar ,
Faking is not something I do well . I cannot even brew up a fake smile for a photo that looks half genuine . The only photos of me that look any good are the ones where I don’t know they are happening . My best defense that I have discovered so far is to criticise them . That just drives them insane . My wit is not bad also so I can sometimes get them with that . Psychopaths may be very cunning but at the same time they can be quite stupid . It is this stupidity that is my defense against them . It is as if they have no common sense . This lack of common sense can give them away as they do not seem to be able to think things through like normal people . What else ?
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:50pm
quest says:
Skylar , the psychopaths soul is dark . One time when I realised that my X was a Pschopath I told her so and also told her that she might as well quit with all the games and the confusing conversation as I now understood what it was all about . I had just read a book called “the psychopath next door” . She gave me a look I had never seen on a human being before . I don’t believe in God but I now know where the devil is hiding .
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:56pm
skylar says:
hi quest,
The sociopaths all go willingly and the devil is free to find an innocent victim. It cracks me up how delusional they are. They need to feel important because I think deep down they know they are just infants that need their diaper changed.
yeah I know the look. My xP gave it to me a couple of times. One time was when I told him his snoring sounded like something from the exorcist. LOL! the look was chilling. But now that I know what it was, (confusion and fear on a psychopath) it is no big deal. He actually believes that he has close ties to the devil.
In truth the devil wouldn’t bother with him because he has taken his own hand down the road to hell. The devil is looking for people that need to be tempted, not those who go willingly.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:16am
quest says:
So skylar are psychopaths born or made . I think I am on the side of the genetic predisposition . And how come the women psychopaths seem to be all good looking , or is it just that, the male in me is attracked to the beautiful ones . Where I live I know of about 6 psychopathic women . If you lined them all up side by side you would think they were all sisters . The one that I lived with did not look anything like her actual sisters . The other thing that I have mentioned before is physical deformities . Two of the women above , the one I lived with and one that nearly got me into all kinds of trouble both had deformed feet . Their toes splayed outwards so that they did not line up with the rest of their feet . weird huh . Needless to say I am always looking at womens feet when ever I get a chance
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 2:23am
skylar says:
quest,
My opinion is that the psycho is born with the ability to feel very intensely. Then something happens to them which hurts them and they can’t deal with it emotionally because they are children. So they choose to develop coping strategies for not feeling. Once they succeed with that strategy, they hang on to it for the rest of their lives. It’s old, childish and out of place but it becomes automatic until they can longer distinguish it from who they are.
I’ve never heard the foot theory. but I’ll keep my eyes open. LOL! But my xP did have bizarre claw-looking feet. I also agree with you that narcissists can appear quite attractive even if they are actually ugly. It’s possible that they just know how to present themselves better because they are more self-conscious of appearances.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 6:41am
geminigirl says:
The last 12 or so pics of my daughter on facebook, she has the same fixed phoney smile on her face which doesnt reach her eyes.She has very red lipstick on, and is always in black and red, ie, red dress,black jacket. She looks so “posey, and phoney. I NEVER saw her like this when she used to visit with her kids. She hardly spoke to me, spent her whole time in my home buried in a magazine, grungy clothes, no make up. Its like I wasnt worth dressing nice for, or worth talking to. I put up with it, so as to see my G.Kids, and basically waited on her, I actually felt sorry for her as I knew she worked hard. So, I felt the least I could do was to take over and give her a break, cook her a nice meal, bring her cups of coffee, etc.
She hardly spoketo me,, or smiled. Now when I see these facebook pics, I wonder if its the same person. The pics give me the chills, as they are so phoney and plastic looking . her ex husband says she looks like shes made out of wax, and they give him the shivers,too.She looks like what she is,–a vampire. we are all food for her, we are prey. She gives nothing back, no emotion, nothing. She still manages, so far, to reel in new victims.At 45, she still looks good, beautiful even,but no emotion in that face, it scares me. Love, Gem.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:45am
OxDrover says:
Dear Quests—”are psychopaths born or made?”
There is clear SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that the answer is BOTH born and made.
There are several studies of the workings of the hormonal and chemical workings of the brain that they don’t have the recptors necessary for Oxytocin (the bonding hormone) and identical twin studies (where the children are genetically identical) raised apart in two completely different environments are much more likely to be both psychopaths if one of them is. So there is great evidence that there are large genetic components, yet environment also plays a part in the “production” of a psychopath.
Testosterone also seems to play a large part in the condition as more men exhibit this than women, however, there are still researches going on about why men seem to be “diagnosed” more often than women.
There are many good scientific articles here and on the internet where GENUINE and VALID research projects are going on about this disorder.
Dr. Leedom has also done research and complied research information and her book “Just Like his Father” is available here in the LF store. If you are truly interested in this, you hve a wealth of scientific information available for you to study.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear Gem,
Can I make a suggestion to you my dear? Don’t even LOOK at her facebook page, that is a sort of “breaking NC” when you follow wht they are “up to” and how they are faring.
Cut out all thoughts of how they fare, what they are doing, I used to worry 24/7 about my P son’s physical and emotional welfare in prison, and how he was in danger from other criminals….and he took some bad beatings and received lilttle medical care etc. but you know what? I no longer worry, but part of it is because I don’t want to know about him. He is DEAD to me.
Except for here on LF I don’t even talk about him anymore, I don’t WONDER about him or how he fares.
Separating ourselves emotionally from them, like they are “dead to us” does help in decreasing the grief. I actually had a little “memorial service” for him, like I buried him. I even got rid of all photos of him after about 11 or 12 years old, back when he was my beloved son, before he morphed into satan himself. I don’t even want to remember that MAN that is a toxic stranger to me. I miss the young child, the bright funny and loving little boy, but that “man” who has his organs, that man is NOTHING TO ME.
Maybe that would help you if you could love and mourn that lovely little child, but disassociate youself from that evil woman who is a STRANGER to you. That lost child will always be prescious, but that woman who is so evil and toxic…she is a stranger to you. See if you can separate them, and hve good memories of the child who is now gone (we all “lose” our babies when they grow up, but we form different relationships with the adults they become. I still miss the little boy my wonderful adult son C WAS, but the man he has become is a good friend). (((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:24am
banana says:
My father refers to my X as persona non grada
“He is dead to you” he says.
Until he pulls another stunt or makes a scene.
Last week he said me as I said “goodbye, I love you” to my son. “No you don’t!”
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:33am
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
Keep in mind, the way you tell if your X is lying is HIS LIPS ARE MOVING! What he SAYS is NOT THE TRUTH, IT IS A LIE, SO WHY REACT TO IT? What he says is NOT important in the great scheme of your life, and only YOU can make yourself believe that it is NOT important.
Don’t dignify his statements with an emotional reaction. That is what you have “always” done in the past, but it is a pattern you must break in the future. As long as his statements (true or false) mean anything to you, then HE HAS CONTROL over your emotions.
In order to live through this, work on TAKING BACK THAT CONTROL, THAT POWER that you have given him. He can’t keep it if you don’t allow him to have it. I know that is hard to grasp but it is TRUE!
If someone you don’t even know comes up to you in a check out line and says “I hate you”—-are you going to go home and cry for days over that person saying something to you? You don’t know this person, they are unimportant in your life, so you say to yourself “why would I care if that person hated me?”
If, however, someone you LOVE says the SAME WORDS, it is devestating because we LOVE and CARE about them, ,and what they feel and thinnk toward us.
WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make if your X LIES TO YOU? As long as you CARE what he thinks, he has control. in reality he MUST BECOME UNIMPORTANT TO YOU. His opinions must be UNimportant. Hang in there girlfriend, keep plugging along. It won’t come over night, but you must keep your eyes on the goal—that nothing he says can hurt you because you don’t give a big rat’s behind what he thinks or says. In one ear and out the other. ((((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:33am
banana says:
Oxy,
I must make this clear…yes he drives me nuts.
But I don’t let him see it, by God’s grace I have been as cool as a cucumber everytime I see him regardless of what he says.
Question…So I shouldn’t even let my attorney try to do something about this because he will know he got to me?
However,
I commented on the other thread that it seems he works reverse to you and witsend’s logic: he tries harder when I don’t react….that’s why he’s doing this…because I’m as quiet as a mouse and polite when I see him.
However, he TOLD me he was picking my son up early from daycare just 8 hours prior, and I went to my attorney and stopped him.
I think he is still mad.
I would not have minded that he took my son early, it was that he did not discuss it with me first through either question or suggestion and that he did it the morning of.
My attorney’s biggest point was that he cannot think that he can just do things how he wants whenever he feels like it.
He was very angry that I did not allow him to pick him early.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 10:47am
banana says:
Oxy,
The previous comment should have read…
Last week, when I said, “Goodbye, I love you.” to my son while handing him over to the S/P, my S/P said to me, “No you don’t!”
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:12am
witsend says:
Banana,
He is not only mad about this…..He is going to PUNISH you for this, in the form of your son.
If you are in a battle with him over custody and you happen to mention these things to your lawyer and your lawyer has him stopped this is the SAME thing to him as “having a reaction” to him and his “game”.
Doesn’t matter if you appear “cool as a cucumber” to his face. You immediately called your lawyer. That in itself was all the “reaction” he needed.
You are not in the position to really have him “talk to you first” about picking up your son 8 hours early at the day care.
Now don’t get me wrong when I say this…..By saying your not in the position, I ONLY mean BECAUSE you are still fighting for custody. ONCE you have this battle over with you can follow the court agreement to the LETTER!
But right now while a court battle is still in progress….Things are different. The court nor the judge wants to hear about “emotional abuse” or the “he said”, “she said” in your case. These issues would require a team of mental health experts to figure it all out….
And all you have are lawyers and the judge so you have to stick to facts. Document the “stuff” he is doing. Dropping off late, picking up early, ect….And right before your case give this documentation to your lawyer…..BUT you must know that you will get further in the courtroom without alot of emotional drama for the judge to contend with.
It would be in your and your sons BEST interest right now to just document AWAY, but pick your battles with your X, until this is over. It is NOT in your best interest to make him angry. Don’t try to win the small battles “now” go for the bigger more important win. That is all I am trying to say.
I understand totally what you are trying to say here…And yes if you were dealing with a “normal” person you might do things exactly as you have been doing. However a normal man would be in a custody battle with you and also CONSIDER the best interest of your son. Your lawyer very well might NOT understand what he is up against. Even though you might have warned him. If he has never lived with an S/P/N he DOESN’T know what he is dealing with.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:20am
banana says:
Witsend,
We have a temporary order in place that states his visitaion starts Thursday at 3:30 pm. That I am to drop-off my son with him at that time at a specific location.
He was going to walk over me and tha temp. order to pick my son up at 2:00.
Thank you…no offense taken. I really need your imput and appreciate all of your advice.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 11:27am
witsend says:
banana,
I KNOW exactly how frustrating your situation is. BELIEVE me I am frustrated every single day of my life for the past 2 years.
In your case though, it is SO important for you to not loose focus of the END result of your court case. Because that is what really matters.
And he will try to make you loose focus. Every chance he gets.
I responded to you because you mentioned the hair cut and I had been in EXACTLY the same senerio with my MIL when my son was young.
After my husband died she wanted to have my son overnight for visits. She brought him home MINUS his beautiful locks.
She bought him guns the first Christmas after his father died. His father killed himself with a gun 2 months before and my son saw the gun my husband used because he was there.
And to let me know just how much she didn’t CONSIDER my sons welfare…She also informed him in front of me “your mommy doesn’t aprove of these toy guns so you have to leave them by grandmas”. Now why would you even buy toys for a 4 year old that he can’t bring home?
After many more issues such as these…..She went for the big one.
She started bringing him home in the car without putting him in his car seat. THE FINAL STRAW. The “battle” I did choose to pick with her.
I just wanted you to know that when it comes to a small child and they “up the stakes”, it can become your worst nightmare.
Please always remember what your up against.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:19pm
OxDrover says:
Banana,
Make him stick to the LETTER OF THE AGREEMENT IN PLACE NOW.
His comment that you dont’ love your son, is just his way to pull your chain. Don’t let him get to you, you know that is FALSE and what do you care even if he (the X) thinks it? (((hugs)))
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 4:31pm
witsend says:
OXY,
Did you by chance read my reply to you on the other thread where I was talking to skylar? I think it is the thread….I am loosing control as a parent.
I am curious what you think about this? Him very possibly changing his plan?
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 4:55pm
robxsykobabe says:
Hi all…
I would like to confess to something Ive done recently.
Recently, after much contemplation and beating myself up, I sent my ex’s mother an email giving information I guess about our relationship and my feelings about things that went on which Im sure she had no idea about. My point was this…I needed to get rid of some of the craziness I was feeling and thought since she had shared with me about a year ago her own personal ‘testamony’ relating to my ex’s destruction he caused, that it was appropriate. I did not bash him or speak disrespectfully to him. I gave facts and spoke honestly about my feelings of my experience while with him, as she is maybe the ONLY person who could understand the depths of his sickness…so I thought.
I got a response that was disturbing in its own right. She told me she was sorry I was ’still’ hurting which I found strange as it has only been 2 months with NO CONTACT and we dated for 3 years. She indirectly told me she wasn’t the person I should talk to about this…maybe I should talk to someone closer to me.
The thing that came to mind was-DENIAL. It is clear to me that accepting more negativity about him and his path of destruction he’s dug is once again too much to accept. She has such hope for him to be different than what he is and would often times say ‘Im so proud of the person he’s become” or “he’s so much better than he ever has been.”
With her response I realized how hard it is for his family to even HEAR that he ISN’T fixed or better or doing well…and as a mom it must be all that more difficult.
Just thought I’d share and any feedback is greatly appreciated.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:00pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
robxsybabe – hey, I have been wondering where you were!
is there a reason you are judging yourself for emailing her?
you thought, given her openess with you, that she might be open to you – but she wasn’t. I think you need some soothin’ and to be putting down the stick you are using on yourself because it didn’t go as hoped. r you angry with yourself because you hoped? took a chance? did you know that it may not go well? is that the reason for the self flagellation?
even if you did know, being upset with yourself for this is the same as being angry for taking up with a spath to begin with: unkind and hard on your self esteem.
i started to tell my story to someone recently – with real details. i need to – to say not only, I know who did this to me, but, ‘this is the person who did this to me.’ i know that i wish i could talk more with aother of my spath’s dupes – i have contact but she is not very forth coming. what i am trying to say it – i can really understand wanting to talk to his mom. it is a whole other layer of intimacy – closer to your experience of him. a truer touch to your heart.
but she could not. would not. she is minimizing your experience, telling you ‘i am not close to you’, which is disavowing. i wonder how guilty she may feel for how her son turned out….how hard it is to hear your pain as she may feel responsible for it. and maybe, she’s just a lot like her son, or was married to a man who was – and she is traumatized herself.
you sound very sad. be that. but, be gentle with you.
and glad to see you back.
best,
one step
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 8:52pm
robxsykobabe says:
One Step:
Well, Ive been off of here because I thought I was holding my own, and through the holidays I did well. January 3rd, (why then, I dont know) though I began to have a melt down that has gained speed and size until last night I absolutely lost it.
You are right…I DID think she would be open with me. We never had a ‘close’ relationship, as she is very untrusting of any female who wants to ‘date’ her beloved son-mostly for fear of someone trying to ‘fix’ him. I did not expect her to divulge information as I have learned that his entire family (her in particular) functions behind the ‘mask’. What I certainly did NOT expect as well was to be shut down like I was…which kinda makes sense though as others have said—by telling my story to her, she may feel a sense of guilt. I am SURE she is in pain and has been for such a long time…and her dream of him being ‘better’ is just that…a dream.
I am sad. Im frustrated. Im sick to my stomache. Im disappointed in myself. But mostly Im confused. I try to tell myself the things I would tell a client, although somehow it isnt as effective.
Thank you for wondering…Im back–gotta get my senses back and this site seems to help…
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 9:15pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
why are you disappointed in yourself?
have you done something that you promised not to do?
and what is there to be confused about?
it sounds like you are processing – i get confused before i see clearly – it’s a bargaining stage for me – when the inner and outer are at odds in some way.
and it took 23 days to hit meltdown. impressive
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 9:58pm
ErinBrock says:
Robxsykobaba:
You sound as if you may be feeling ‘guilty’? Just by the fact your ‘making a confession’.
No need to confess and certainly no need to feel guilty.
The outcome is, unfortunately, not surpising to me.
Denial to someone close is huge. And it’s easier to pawn you off than deal with her ‘intimate’ son.
When I aproached the s’s step mother…..she was also abused and demoralized and demonized for 45 years by the S….what I had to say was NO secret to her….we had conversations for about a year……and then…..boom…..end.
I know she feels guilt about he dead husband, and this was his troubled son….but shit….he was 47 years old……
He has portrayed her as a demon…..abusive his whole life etc…..I’m not buying it anymore…..but she is in DENIAL!
She’s a mormon and is on a mission…..and god says to forgive…..love thy neighbor etc…..but I don’t believe the bible verses can protect us from a Cluster B. You just can’t love thy SOCIOPATHIC neighbor….(my view)…..
So…..they choose to hold their breaths…..until the next boom drops….and frankly…it’s NOT our problem anymore….
All of his brothers have ‘taken him back’…….but I know….cuz i saw it for 28 years…..he’ll severely shit on all of them, and has since they’ve taken him ‘back’ in. He’s a user and abuser and they are co dependant. So…..have him……you won’t get a qualm out of me. they gave up their neices and nephews (his kids) for a sociopath……they felt bad for him……and I can guarentee you this……a few of them recognized that he deserved losing everything in the divorce! AFTER THE FACT!!!
So……take the knowledge of denial…..and try to contain yourself to bypass the feeling of not being validated by someone you reach out to because of thier own denial!
You must come to accept…..you will certainly come across more of these types than not.
They can keep him….just be thankful it’s NOT YOU!!!
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:14pm
robxsykobabe says:
One Step:
Im disappointed because I did try to ‘connect’ with a person who could understand what I went through and feel like I got shut down pretty quickly. It isnt surprising as she is in total denial and would much rather believe her delusions about the ‘progress’ he’s made. That is sick in its own self as she and I have had plenty of conversations where Ive told her things that he has done…not knowing of course at the time who I was dealing with…so she is VERY aware that he IS the same as he always was…
ErinBrock:
You make sense with saying ‘pawn you off’ as she has discarded what Ive said, which is a little close to home. She DOES feel bad for him! She feels like he continually tries to pick himself up only to be knocked back down time and time again. She doesnt acknowledge that he gets knocked down because he CONSTANTLY lies and then gets caught…which sets him back. I wish I was validated by the person I feel knows the best about what Im going through, but it seems for her to do that, it would be admitting herself that he’s NOT who she so despirately wants him to be…a good person.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:37pm
robxsykobabe says:
ErinBrock:
One more thing. Whe he told me of his child he has never seen after us dating for 4 months, I asked and asked and asked if there was ANYTHING else he needed to tell me. He SWORE that was it…there were no more shoes to drop. Little did I know that was the beginning of a loooooooooooong line of lies and deceit—but along the lines of holding breath…
I believe his ‘family’ is well aware of who he is, but has accepted it as ‘normal’. Now, his mother wishes him to be differently but knows he cant. So what she sees as ‘making progress’ is nothing more than her looking at him with rose colored glasses AND him controlling himself enough around her (who he lives with by the way-at 36). When she is given information about what he does/did outside of her home (like at mine) which is EXACTLY what he has always done she cant handle it…so, you’re right….better to just shut me down and not listen…tell me to talk to others closer to me…(like we NEVER had conversations about him and like she NEVER shared with me personally also)…that way, what she doesnt ‘know’ she doesnt have to deal with…
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 10:58pm
witsend says:
robxsykobabe,
Sometimes after a relationship with one of these creatures the thing we seem to crave the most is some simple validation.
Because of the compexity of the disorder and the way people (especially family) relate to it in one way or the other, (denial is huge) it is difficult to recieve that validation.
That is why that LF is such a wonderful resource for most of us. A soft place for us to fall.
Here we can educate ourselves, recieve validation and “take what we want” and leave the rest, when it comes to advice or opinions we might not agree with.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 11:01pm
robxsykobabe says:
Witsend:
It also is a place for everyone to share their stories which have general themes to them which is great. It is so easy to detach my feelings when Im supported by others who are on the total outside who can validate my story. And it makes me see just how f’ed up his family is…cause it’s getting clearer and clearer to me…despite the meltdowns I still have.
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Wednesday, 27 January 2010 @ 11:07pm
ErinBrock says:
Quote from one of Lily’s posts……
“I have no idea what the outcome will be but if I survive, I’ll be back to the board. If not, I will see you in Heaven, okay?
Okay!…..we’ll see you in heaven darling……
Gem….
Thank you for being such a caring soul…..you are such a wonderufl friend to others.
I hope your doing better and I miss you on my late night LF conversations.
Thanks for the information about our dear Lily.
She knew she was loved and your gestures were priceless to her!
XXOO
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 12:34am
ErinBrock says:
Thornbud posted this in Sept.
I thought was very fitting, I hope you don’t mind me reposting here in Lily’s honor.
A cry, from the Lilly Bed,
It seems as tho the Lilly beds, been silent, far to long,
Without the sounds of laughter,and the chorus, of Love songs,
The once still peaceful waters,have been troubled, here of late,
For from the bank’s, blow woeful winds,proclaiming unsure fates,
The Lillie’s petals have withdrawn, to hide amidst, the greenery,
Their beauty fails to be displayed,to grace the garden, scenery,
When Beloved enters there to feed,and behold, their loveliness,
He finds His garden in disarray, the Lillie’s, in distress,
Then He begins to calm them, and bring them back, in to His rest,
Speaks ‘Wind’s be still,you can not curse,those whom I have blessed’,
Slowly petal’s will unfurl, drawn, towards His Light,
To dance amidst reflection’s, on the pond,til morning light,
Softly at first their voice’s rise, and blend, in harmony,
To sing for the Beloved, a joyful,’ Son Light Rhapsody’
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:06am
hens says:
Hello I have been away a few days. Has something happened to Anewlily?
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:15am
one_step_at_a_time says:
hens: Gem posted a couple of days ago – that Lily has died.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:21am
hens says:
How sad – She was special. I told her about my Naked Lady Lillys that I planted and how I thot of her while I did so. She was so sweet to me (all of us). My Naked Lady Lilys will be extra special this coming summer. Poor thing, I will look for Gems post..darn it…..
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:28am
ErinBrock says:
Hens…(I have to say….I smile big each time I see your ‘new’ name!)
Matt posted ANewLily’s obit.
http://www.legacy.com.
gems post can be found on ‘French introduce law’ thread.
She was special…. Let that be a lesson to us all…..we just NEVER know how we touch others….
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:40am
ErinBrock says:
Hens…
I think you ‘jinxed’ me….
I was asked out on a lunch date today…..GUESS WHAT THE HELL HIS NAME IS!!!!!
THAAAAANNNNNKKKKKSSSSS
Shall I decline???????
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:44am
ErinBrock says:
D….as in DICK!
I laughed so hard inside when he introduced himself….
And let me tell ya…..you came into my mind immediately!!!
IT”S YOUR FAULT!!!!
Toivola Kangus is her name. Passed away Jan 15, 2010.
she was a beautiful woman….my heart breaks she died so heartbroken….I only hope she felt some comfort and her kids allowed her peace and love in the end…..
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:58am
hens says:
YES decline or request he change his name to George…
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:59am
hens says:
I got a email from Datingphyscos.com is this from lovefraud?
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:08am
ErinBrock says:
WHAT???
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:11am
ErinBrock says:
I’m smelling a rotting potted plant in the other room…..may be time to clean it up.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:15am
ErinBrock says:
How about ferdinand…..okay….Can I do that after we have become intimate…..I’ll tell him it’s my ‘pet name’ for him…..he’ll never know why!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:20am
ErinBrock says:
I’ll just call him George…..he’ll ask why …….
And i’ll tell him because he’s gonna remind me of curious george any minute…..cuz he’s NEVER gonna know why!
Am I now having a conversation with myself????
HENS>>>>>>>>>>HEEEEENNNNNNSSSSSS>>>>>>
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:31am
hens says:
yep potted plant….gnite.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:31am
hens says:
well~~!!!! it take you so long to answer or comment – I thot I was all alone= just me and yu and the pot plant?
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:32am
ErinBrock says:
Hens….
Pot plant……roll that up!
AND SMOKE IT!!!!
Good night…..sweet dreams love bug!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 2:41am
Renewedhope says:
It’s been 32 days now NC with s woman who almost ruined my marriage and life. Upon reading your responses, I was reminded of some of the things S woman said to me..again the same things you all were told: That You are my soul mate and that no one Knows me as well as you do! Well evidently I didn’t know the main thing about you ol’girl or I would NOT have spent 27 years thinking you would change..or more importantly that you actually cared about me.
Today I am more confident than I was a month ago. My wife and I are back to where we were before S woman lied and said she dying and I “had to tell her how much I still love her”That I didn’t want her to leave this Earth plane without her knowing that. S woman became”Smitten” with me all over again thus starting a long distance/2 month emotional affair via the email and phone.
I look at my beloved wife now with a renewed infatuation that hasn’t been there for a long while and realize who really does love me with a whole heart and soul. That she hung in there durng that 2 months in fear that I would leave her forS woman. S woman- who had me so screwed up emotonally that I almost left the best thing that ever happened to me, and almost did it twice. The only thing that saved me this time was that it was in the dead of winter and S woman went through her cycle a little too fast: first “acting” totally smitten with me..whispering sweet nothings in my ear over the phone and within a month and a half later..insulting me and telling me that it was all my fault for the affair.”You should have known better,you are married!” and “It was wrong and you know it!” Ok she was right: I had this emotinal affair all alone for 2 months. She had nothing to do with it! (Yeah..Right!)Had she not went through her “Bored” stage I would still be in her grasp and still committing myself to about $2,500 of my fathers estate money when it clears probate. But she really screwed up this time because she had a sure thing until she insulted me January 27th on the phone. I would have still came through with the dough too just as her friend until I found out that she was playing me like a violin because she is a S!!! Some friend!
My wife and I lay next to each other last night in bed holding hands and gazing into each others eyes thanking God for seeing us through this rough time. My wife telling me that our reationship was actually stronger for the experience. I agreed with her but sure wished foresight was 20/20 as well as hindsight. Everyday gets a little easier. My marriage alot stronger. Because I decided to keep the real gold over the fool’s gold!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 4:05am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Renewedhope:
Hang in there!
I don’t know if you have read the Bretrayal Bond. I am going through it and doing the exercises. Very helpful. It is important to go deeply into ourselves to do the work we need to do to heal and not just take refuge in our relationships, as grateful as we are for them. we need to put the emphasis on ourselves and our healing, so as not to burden them with the weight of the work we need to do.
best,
one step
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 9:10am
Renewedhope says:
Thanks one step. Where do I find the betrayal bond? Love to work on things!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 11:46am
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi renewedhope:
you can purchase it through the lovefraud store or amazon.
i got mine from the library.
best,
onestep
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:05pm
Renewedhope says:
Thanks so much One Step! Will be getting it soon along with The Sociopath Next Door.
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 1:49pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
welcome!
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Thursday, 28 January 2010 @ 5:45pm