What All Sociopaths Have In Common
As we think about sociopaths, let’s remember that they can make diverse presentations, which can make it hard to know if (and when) you’re dealing with one.
Although sociopathy is a personality disorder, it’s complicated by the fact that sociopaths have widely diverse personalities.
There are smart sociopaths and dumb sociopaths; gregarious sociopaths and more withdrawn sociopaths; engaging sociopaths and paranoid sociopaths; calculating sociopaths and more impulsive sociopaths; socially skilled, and socially unskilled sociopaths.
There are charismatic sociopaths and sociopaths with dull personalities. There are sociopaths who may leave you feeling remarkably comfortable, and sociopaths who may leave you feeling extremely creeped-out.
Some sociopaths are physically violent personalities, while others are no more prone to violence than you or I.
Given this diversity among them, what, then, do sociopaths have in common?
I take a stab, below, at answering this question, which itself isn’t so cut and dried. But what follow are some qualities that I believe all sociopaths have in common.
All sociopaths are emotionally shallow.
While sociopaths don’t have a patent on emotional shallowness (nonsociopaths can be emotionally shallow), they do have this terrain thoroughly covered. All sociopaths, without exception, are emotionally shallow.
It’s not that sociopaths don’t have and feel emotions. They are human beings, inclined as they are to transgress others. They want things. They feel their discomforts, pleasures, cravings.
But what sociopaths lack, fundamentally, is emotional interest in others. They may be interested in what others have [for them]; that is, what others have [for them] may evoke, and even stimulate, their emotions. However, they are not interested, genuinely, in who others are.
The sociopath, for instance, may recognize, and even pay very close attention, to your mood. But his interest in your mood will hinge on how your mood affects his agenda.
He is like the amoral child who, watching his mother and shrewdly detecting her vigilant energy, decides it’s not a good time to lift the five-dollar bill off the kitchen counter. He has read her carefully, and perhaps accurately. But his interest in her state of mind, and emotions, is limited to the advancement of his agenda.
All sociopaths are disloyal individuals.
I see this as a truism about sociopaths. Sociopaths may seem and even act loyal, but only so long as they calculate that the cost of their loyalty hasn’t yet exceeded its benefit [to them].
As soon as the sociopath discerns that the cost of his loyalty exceeds the advantage, he betrays those to whom he’d apparently been “loyal.”
His self-interest, in other words, is paramount, and supercedes his capacity for self-sacrifice.
All sociopaths are habitual transgressors (without meaningful remorse) of others’ boundaries.
Whether calculating or more impulse-driven, sociopaths are habitual boundary violators, without genuine remorse for their hurtful effect on others. Some (not all) sociopaths “get off” on their exploitation—meaning that, for them, the process of exploiting is the motive force that drives their exploitation.
Sociopaths may be childishly fascinated by the exercising of their power to “push the envelope,” to “pull off” capers and dodge accountability.
Their lack of remorse—lack, indeed, of any form of genuine accountability—is one of the perplexing aspects of this personality disorder. And there’s probaby not a single explanation for this.
All sociopaths grossly lack compassion.
A lack of empathy is commonly ascribed to sociopaths, but I sometimes wonder if the sociopath’s lack of compassion isn’t a more germane descriptor.
Part of the problem with empathy is that people view it differently—arguably, there are different “types” of empathy that elude a single, unifying definition.
You will sometimes hear people say about sociopaths that, rather than lacking empathy, they actually use their empathy exploitively. I don’t see it that way. I view a mindset of empathy as the antithesis of the exploitive mindset—thus, someone feeling empathic (by my definition of empathy) could not use his empathy to exploit. That would be logically impossible.
But I think we escape this definitional confusion altogether when we consider sociopaths and the issue of compassion. In this regard, I assert that all sociopaths lack genuine compassion for others.
I’m suggesting that, even more than his empathic deficiency, the sociopath’s gross lack of compassion enables his infamous abuse of others’ dignity and space.
(See an upcoming post, Sociopathy: A Disorder of Compassion, for an elaboration of this idea.)
All sociopaths lack appropriate shame.
Sociopaths’ deficient levels of shame support their exploitive tendencies. Shame gives us pause, and sociopaths do very little “pausing.” Most of us contemplate the factor of shame, or prospective shame, in the decisions we make.
Our automatic, often unconscious review of how shameful we’re likely to feel following a chosen action allows us to think twice before executing it. It gives us room to cancel a plan whose execution we deem, on reflection and in anticipation, risks reigning shame down upon us.
Sociopaths lack shame to fear. Lacking shame to fear disinhibits them from pursuing destructive ideas that the rest of us, more often than not, will “pass” at.
Sociopaths are audacious personalties.
As I’ve indicated in several LoveFraud pieces, there is something audacious about the sociopath. He is prone to behaviors that leave the rest of us, whether as victims or witnesses, shaking one’s head. His levels of gall, hubrus are astonishing.
Where the nonsociopath, as just discussed, will find opportunities to scrap a bad plan, the sociopath is more likely to eschew prudent consideration (and reconsideration) and pursue the flawed plan, anyway.
His audacity—see my LoveFraud piece, The Audacity Of The Sociopath—is a curious and troubling aspect of his personality.
Sociopaths are liars and deceivers.
Lying and deceiving are close cousins, and sociopaths routinely do both. But this doesn’t make them necessary good at either (although they may be). A sociopath may assert, as if he really believes it, that he broke the world record in the mile, but this doesn’t make it a good lie.
The premise is preposterous; and so what’s most striking about the lie is its audacity, not its believability.
Sociopaths often, for instance, defend untenable positions from, it seems, sheer contempt for their audience. Consider this interaction:
Wife: I saw you with your secretary at Chile’s, today, at 12:15. You were kissing.
Sociopath: What are you talking about? I didn’t leave the office all day.
Wife: I saw you. Don’t bullshit me.
Sociopath: Yeah right. Ask Allen…we were in a meeting at 12:15. Go ahead. Why don’t you fucking call him and ask him?
Wife: I knew you’d say that. I already called the office. Allen’s in San Diego, and you know that.
Sociopath: You’re fucking crazy. You know what, stop fucking stalking me! That’s your problem. Maybe if you’d stop fucking stalking me you’d actually find something valid to accuse me of!
Wife: Don’t change the subject. You’re lying.
Sociopath: No…this is the subject. You’ve got a fucking stalking problem. So let’s not change that subject. You know what, honey? One of these days your fucking stalking’s gonna really drive me into someone else’s arms.
Wife: You were kissing her, John.
Sociopath: You know what? Fuck you. How ’bout that? Fuck you.
Rife with sociopathic machinations, this interaction starts with the assertion and insistence of a preposterous lie, then maneuvers quickly into deflection, gaslighting and other abusive strategies.
In upcoming posts, I’ll extend the list of traits that all sociopaths, I believe, share in common.
(My use of “he” in this article was for purposes of convenience, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of expressing the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
(This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
newlife08 says:
“Sociopaths often, for instance, defend untenable positions from, it seems, sheer contempt for their audience. ”
Steve,
This is sooooo on target !!!!!!! Filled with so much truth down to the exact words I have heard myself .
I experienced your sample dialogue repeatedly and always questioned my own sanity – maybe I was too insecure, maybe I was paranoid, too suspicious – too unforgiving of the first affair.
Even now – he is unable to have a conversation that makes sense.
Last night :
Me “I need to drop son off Friday night instead of you picking him up Saturday a.m. – later in the evening because I have to get daughter to her band trip by 5:00 am Saturday ”
Him: “Oh – it’s OK for you to drop him off when you want to but not OK for me . No NOTICE ?? Seems i deserve notice !!”
ME: ” No – I just got the schedule tonight. I am not asking for myself. – I have to do something for our other child. I just don’t want to leave son in the house alone or drag him out that time in the a.m. when he will be with you Saturday anyway. I’ll handle it if I have to – no problem.”
Him: ” Well it just amazes me you ask me for something but usually don’t even talk to me. I will take him earlier Friday ”
Me : “That won’t really work for me – I have to get his Halloween costume, exchange 2 pairs of pants for 2 that fit him so I need him to go, He has to pick out craft supplies for a school project and maybe even start it -although I don’t expect we’ll get that far in one evening”
Him ” You always have an excuse – ”
Me “No – I am not making excuses. Band is two days this weekend and son is with you this weekend. Next weekend is 2 competitions for daughter and Halloween . The project is due Nov 9 – that weekend before due date he is with you again. I have little time to get the project started and done on weeknights. He has his other homework , CCD and wrestling is starting. Can you just let me drop him off later Friday night or not ?”
HIM: “Stop yelling ”
ME : ” I am not yelling and I am done with the conversation ”
HANG UP……….
Phone rings ::
HIm: ” You know , I still don’t understand why I can’t take him earlier ”
Me : ” Are you going to get all the things I listed done ? ”
Him : ” Well …no ”
Me : ” OK – I am NOT going through another explanation. I’ll take care of it all myself ”
AND I STILL DON’T KNOW IF IN HIS MIND HE AGREED TO TAKE SON FRIDAY NIGHT LATE OR NOT !!!!
“Rife with sociopathic machinations, this interaction starts with the assertion and insistence of a preposterous lie, then maneuvers quickly into deflection, gaslighting and other abusive strategies. ”
This was everyday life , Steve – If I caught him lying, I shouldn’t have been snooping, when I found a condom in his pants pocket – a guy was giving them away as a promotion, I found a hotel room key in his pants – “Geez, I don’t know where that came from !!!!! Why are you looking in my pants ?” – I was doing laundry. OW called- “Oh she is just trying to get between us ”
Never any answers – always tried to re-direct it to my behaviors – but now I see it more and it is so DISTURBING to me – it makes my stomach physically hurt to try and process his logic now – and there is no way to offset it.
My only question is, Steve – is it automatic – are the defense mechanisms that automatic ?? – or is it with concious intent to derail us ??? Are they aware they are twisting reality for us??? Or is their reality so twisted ????
Thanks once again, for the education you continue to give us !!!
YOU ARE AMAZING !!!!!!!!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:59am
newlife08 says:
Steve,
I forgot to add – the TONE of the conversation – the
CONTEMPT is so very thick in his voice – he even seems to
take the time to enunciate his words so the CONTEMPT comes
through even STRONGER ……
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:02pm
OxDrover says:
Steve, your “conversation” with the wife and the P is GREAT! I actually about ROTFLMAO! I think you are missing a great career as a stand up commedian for people who have dealt with a psychopath! Thanks for making my day!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:15pm
holywatersalt says:
I was just reading yesterday a book by a psychiatrist- made a good point re: empathy.
They may have -mean act empathetic, but they are not SYMpathetic.
I plan onblogging on that soon.
http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:53pm
skylar says:
Steve, great post, so very accurate.
You said:
Their lack of remorse—lack, indeed, of any form of genuine accountability—is one of the perplexing aspects of this personality disorder. And there’s probaby not a single explanation for this.
It is perplexing but I think there is a single explanation for this: their sense of entitlement. They feel that they are entitled to do as they please without any consequences. If they please to see you suffer, then they are entitled to see you suffer. That sense of entitlement is what is inexplicable. It really has no sense or logic. What makes them believe that they are the center of the known universe? Why is it impossible for them to even consider that the rest of humanity is not made up of “imaginary friends”? We are real too.
I used to tell my xP, “I’m just a figment of your imagination, I’m not really here. You are actually talking to yourself.” It’s funny because he never responded to this. He didn’t agree or disagree, he didn’t even question why I would say this. It’s like he just took it as a fact. This was before I knew what he was. I wasn’t even sure why these words came out of my mouth. The best way I can explain it, is that I came to the realization that he never once tried to find out if I was happy with my life or asked me if there were things that I would like to accomplish. He treated me like a two-dimensional character with no hopes and dreams, just an extension of his hopes and dreams.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:56pm
heavenbound says:
This describes the exp. This one (i don’t want to call him ‘mine’) is not exactly one of the smart ones, or charming to any degree, but as infuriating as any other I’m sure. The conversations are just like that and like newlife said, I never know what he thinks was agreed on in any conversation we have. Then when he makes a move on something its my fault because “you knew” or “thats what you said” or even “now, hb, thats what I told you”. I hate having to talk to him because of these head games. When he does make a direct statement of what he is going to do, he doesn’t.
I would like to give everyone a background of myself and to tell my story but I don’t know where I should post it so as not to take away from anyones article. They are too good and informative for anyone to loose sight of them over me and my story. I will say I have been reading here at love fraud for almost 6 months which has made the roller coaster of emotions and nc so much easier.
Thank you for being here lovefraud and thank you for all the wonderful articles that have kept me sane!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:11pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Newlife, thanks for your generous feedback as always.
I think often the manipulative redirection is automatic…certainly, depending on the circumstances and the individual, it can be a calculating stratagem, as well. but often it’s just a knee-jerk abdication, and projection, of responsibility. and you make such an excellent point about the “tone” of contempt. the enunciation of contempt. I hear you, and know exactly what you’re referring to. thank you, Newlife!
Oxy, Skylar, Heavenbound…thanks for your comments!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:28pm
pilgrimage says:
It has been three weeks since the ending of my relationship with a N or S (doesnt really matter as they are both horrible). And I am still in shock about what I have been through and shocked as well to find out they (sociopaths) are all the same. I feel as though have been to battle with some mythological creature or under the spell of one. I went from spending all my time/my everything with this creature to now spending all my time reading these forums, trying to heal myself or figure out what happened.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 2:48pm
shabbychic says:
Very interesting. I feel discarded all over again! The way their minds work just makes me want to puke. I’m scared I won’t be able to spot one until it’s too late. Thank you for these insights, they are invaluable. It’s like the analogy you used in another article… we’re like a used up piece of chewing gum they spit out.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 3:19pm
skylar says:
pilgrimage,
welcome. that’s what I call mine: a mythological creature from imagination land. I think this description is the most complete and accurate and encompassing way to describe our P’s. They are mythological because they makeup their own reality, pull off capers to keep the story line exciting, grip us in the spell of their drama and take us back to our childhoods when everything was possible. Then, in mythology, there is always a crisis that reveals the mythological creature’s tragic flaw and then someone must be sacrificed for the good of the community. Someone must pay the price to appease the mythological creature/god. A substitute victim is selected. (that’s us, the N-supply) Then they try to kill us because they are entitled to. Besides, as figments of their imagination, nothing that happens to us really matters. We don’t matter.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 3:27pm
Stayingsane says:
Steve
You name so accurately the mind blowing stunts The P pulls off
I wish I had known this before I fell for the whole package hook line and sinker.
But what sociopaths lack, fundamentally, is emotional interest in others. They may be interested in what others have [for them]; that is, what others have [for them] may evoke, and even stimulate, their emotions. However, they are not interested, genuinely, in who others are.
NOT INTERESTED IN WHO OTHERS ARE…..
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 4:17pm
pilgrimage says:
Hi skylar, and you are right but when one finally does wake up from the “spell” there are no winners or losers, heros or villians…I guess just “awareness” for the one who wakes up. I really dont know? Nothing makes sense. Did I need this experience? And like shabbychic I am scared I will not be able to spot another one until its too late or never have another love again because of fear.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 4:31pm
lostingrief says:
okay, when i stop shuddering, i’ll write something meaningful about this post. for now, the chill up and down my spine says it all.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 5:20pm
lostingrief says:
pilgrimage: i actually said that to the ex-spath/narc more than once!! he WAS a mythological CREATURE … even looks like one with his pointy ears and his pure black lizard eyes. i’m sorry you, too, fell for one of these sub-humanoids. i too spent my entire being caught in the web; then all my time here trying to untangle myself. i have 14 months NC, and the shock you describe endures. it’s hard to wrap a normal brain around such ‘audacious’ behavior.
please stick around and maintain NC. it’s the only way back to sanity. peace and TOWANDA!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 5:26pm
slimone says:
Steve,
You are a hammer that hits the head (nail head that is) every time. I love your mind and mad skills.
I don’t have anything to add but my gratitude for getting to read what you have learned.
As they say in AA: thank-you for sharing.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 5:32pm
pilgrimage says:
lostingrief- it is hard the NC rule but to survive, I guess one has too and btw “Towanda” I love that movie!:) I will hang out here and try to take in all the wisdom and healing words you guys have…thank you.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 5:50pm
slimone says:
As it turns out I do have something to say:
I said that I love your mind and it got me to thinking.
I feel like I ‘lost my mind’ when I got entangled with a p.
Though admittedly I have always been a more emotional/intuitive person, my intellect a bit out of balance. I never felt so ‘befuddled’ before in any of my interpersonal interactions. But even more so after the assault, my emotional and intuitive intelligences have been working overtime, and my brain hasn’t been working on all four cylinders.
The mind games and gaslighting were so pervasive that I feel like I either unwittingly abandoned my mind as a any kind of help, or it just wasn’t any use– like a computer that got crappy data input.
I really feel relieved and elevated when my gut, emotions, and intellect are all ‘on the same page’.
So though I appreciate-am helped by- the feeling centered posts, the intellectual/solid ‘facts’ and ideas are waking up my brain circuits, my good old fashioned common sense. Helping to mend a giant hole in my thinking cap, if you will.
For me this feels holistic, if that makes any sense. As in I feel whole when all my ‘intelligences’ are working together.
Well, thanks again for plugging up the brain drain.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 6:22pm
Jan says:
Wow!
That’s the EXACT communication I had with the X. Thanks for putting into words.
I experience oceans of emotions about the relationship. Today I’ve been feeling rage at him, so I’m psychically sending my wrath though the ethers in hopes he suffers.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 6:26pm
Matt says:
Steve:
Excellent article. As I read your list of criteria I kept thinking “if I could sum up in one word what the common denominator is for this list, what would it be?” Oddly enough, it wasn’t the word “sociopath’. It was the word “predator”. You average predatory animal in the wild would exhibit every one of these traits (okay, they can’t lie, but they can be deceitful and manipulative through mirroring a prey’s beavior). Which just goes to prove that they really aren’t human.
newlife08:
Congratulations, girl. A year ago you wouldn’t have handled that conversation with the skill you did. What’s that old saying about a little bit of knowledge being a dangerous thing? Oh, yeah — and we should add “to a sociopath.” Obviously you threw him off his game which is why he called back. Yeah, you still don’t know if he’s going to pick up your son on Friday night. On the other hand, you didn’t rise to his bait and drive yourself crazy. Well done.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:02pm
lostingrief says:
pilgrimage: NC is very difficult. and even after 14 months, still sometimes i just want answers, clarification, an apology, a reassurance that he loved me, or i want to rage, or ask questions — did his wife finally leave him, is he still with his new gf and their infant, does he ever miss me. but then, it passes, and the rage at being SO taken and used and abused (it’s taken me a while to accept and own that i let him abuse me) wells up, and i loathe him all over again, and i’m okay.
it’s a journey. not one we asked for, not one we deserve. but already, it’s a far better road than the one i was on with him!
TOWANDA!!!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:07pm
Matt says:
Steve:
One thing you might want to add to your list of common criteria in a future article is why the mask slips for so many of them at month three in a relationship. I was having drinks with a friend two nights ago who is involved with his second S in a row (obviously he hasn’t learned the lesson yet). When I asked him when the trouble started he said “month three.”
I can remember when I first posted the number of bloggers who wondered if a bell went off in their heads since 3 months seemed to be the common denominator on when the D & D began.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:07pm
lostingrief says:
matt: you’re right on; they’re not human. they don’t act human, or look human (when you really get to know them … you can see the scales and the third eyelid and such). i think they should test the DNA of these vermin, or scan their bodies for metals that have no earthly origin.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:09pm
lostingrief says:
matt: 3 months, huh? i thought about that, and interestingly, when i moved back to the city to be with him — AGAIN — it was the third month when i caught him in the first lie. hmmm …
is three the mystical symbol of the demon?
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:11pm
Matt says:
lostingrief:
Let’s see — Cerebrus, the 3 headed dog guarded the entrance to hell. Does that do it for you?
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:35pm
PInow says:
As I struggle with THE flu, I face my forced loneliness. I realize that I have no one to help me or nurture me through fevers. I continue to try to be a good mother to my kids. A thought creeped into my mind: He should be the one with the flu instead. Immediately, I imagined him sick, running fever, coughing, not able to get up to make himself tea. The tears welled up in my eyes, and so much love and compassion filled my heart that it was almost like I’d never been hurt by him, never been betrayed, never knew that he’s never ever alone… All I thought was – protecting my family. My brain still fails to realize the horrific truth of the disaster that took place in my life: He was never my family. And – his brain continues to drive him to hurt me, reaching for every button he knows I have. What a strange dichotomy. The interaction Steve used is so typical of what I had gone through. Somehow, the tables ALWAYS turned against me. it made no sense to bring anything up. I quickly learned that it was my fault anyway. And it did make sense – that IS so strange.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:35pm
skylar says:
Matt, YES predators do lie! It’s called camouflage. They behave as if they are human but they aren’t. They are mythological creatures.
The three-headed dog! LOL! I think Medusa is what I see when he’s raging. The head with snakes for hair!
Don’t look directly at him or you will turn to stone.
PInow, it must be the fever affecting your thinking. Is there anyway you could take advantage of this time and go give him a nice french kiss? Make it last as long as possible and exchange as much saliva as possible. Tell him you’re feeling hot and bothered? Then, when you’re all better and you imagine him being sick, it will actually be true.
You’re going to feel better soon. I use 3 supplements that are miraculous for the flu: Gigartina (a red marine algae), Oscillococcinum Flu Remedy, and Echinacea with Astragalus & Reishi. I hope you can find one or more of these to help you.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:54pm
lostingrief says:
cerebrus … yes … that will do …
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 8:22pm
newlife08 says:
HEY THERE MATT!!!!!!!
So good to see you here – and thanks for your words. I am getting better at recognizing the behaviors – but my temper still gets the better of me sometimes……still have a lot of anger.
I get so much out of Steve’s writings – I have read soooo many books and sites – but Steve has a way of expressing the mind and workings of an N/S – he’s brilliant , knows his subject and he is a healing soul.
And , MR Matt – how are things with you??????
I don’t see you here much so I am hoping you have other things to occupy you……….
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 9:18pm
pollyannanomore says:
Wow … yes … Steve – how are you able to write this stuff? It is funny but scarily accurate. That is exactly what he did to me … would turn everything around so it was no longer about him and what he did but about the problems I had that were far more urgent and impacting on the relationship much more. Crazy stuff. Crazy Crazy. No wonder I started to believe I was going mad – he was driving me there deliberately – bastard!
Slimone … like you I at first analysed the crap out of his behaviour and read and researched and tried to understand it. But no theory fit it – nothing could explain it and of course he was always full of his bullshit excuses and lies. I think when I realised I couldn’t understand it I abdicated my mind as well and let him do the driving. When I woke up he had blown tens of thousands of dollars of joint money behind my back. But he honestly thought there should be no consequence for it. I told him to go – you should have seen the oscar show he put on – ‘Don’t do this’ – pretending to cry even! I said ‘When should I wait for? Till you bankrupt me and lose the house? Till your behaviour drives me mad or kills me? Did you really think there would be no consequence to this?’
I often likened it to a spell and said to him when I woke and saw it would never change and he would never change ‘The spell is finally broken’ – there definitely was something ‘otherworldly’ about the whole relationship. It felt archetypal – I was always looking for the ’spiritual lesson’ in it for me. I wish I hadn’t had that kind of learning – could have done without it.
It is so unbelievable to me that we all have experienced these similar things in our own respective corners of the world. And though our stories are very different they are alike in the most important aspects. Each of us at some point was sitting feeling totally alone and totally at the mercy of these bastards who were telling us white was black and night was day and laughing as we sobbed on the floor. TOWANDA! (Love that saying !!!)
The contempt is both present in the physical act of communication and in the implied action of consistently lying and deceiving. That shows more contempt than any curled lip to me. Lying and hiding things from me showed he thought I was not enough of a person to deserve the whole truth and I was dumb enough to buy his distorted version of reality every time he sold it to me. Coincidentally today I was thinking about this contempt implicit in lies – it just shows total lack of respect for the other person on so many levels.
Arohanui = please keep writing – we need your words to heal our wounds
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 10:39pm
Matt says:
newlife08:
Good to hear from you. In my world the relationship front has neve been better — newguy (is he still new after 4+ months?) is wonderful. It never ceases to amaze me when I think of the crap I put up with S and how well I am treated by newguy. When I was running down STeve’s checklist I thought S had every one of these traits — new guy is the exact opposite. Starting with the fact that he likes to spend time with me. We’re generally together 4-5 nights a week. No big nights out on the town — just cooking or spending time together. It’s nice not feeling like I’m walking on eggshells and not having to deal with that ill-defined sense of dread where I used to wonder who S was cheating on me with or what bad activities he was engaging in behind my back. As I’m fond of saying these days, “gee, if I had known how easy it was to date someone like newguy, I would have stopped dating Ss years ago.”
As for the job front, still nothing to report. There have been a few nibbles, but everything moves so slowly. The recruiters say things are starting to move a bit in one of my speciality areas, but very slowly. I just find myself getting so frustrated at times. To say nothing of dying everytime I have more money flow out the door and no money flowing in through the door. Don’t get me wrong — I’m grateful S didn’t go through all my money and I have some to carry myself with for awhile. But, the idea of old-age security seems to get more and more insecure with each passing month. So, I try to deal with the anxiety by shoving food into my face followed by going to the gym to burn off the calories. Circular logic at its best.
Any progress getting rid of S via divorce court?
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 10:50pm
BlackDeer says:
This is all so familiar…especially that dialogue, have had so many of those. Most ended with me backing off when he threw a big enough hissy fit that I just couldn’t deal anymore.
I will say that the casual lies that would’ve looked like truth had I not known otherwise were worse. Sneaky little bullets.
Or when I’d call him on a lie and he’d just abandon it and switch to some new version of the story without looking back and expect me to buy it. I’d expect this from a 4-year old, but a man in his 50s…wow.
Great article, thank you Steve.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:02pm
skylar says:
Matt,
have you ever considered hanging up your own shingle?
The guy who “saved me” was a lawyer I met in a sushi bar, Greg. He was trying to pick me up I guess. Nice guy, athlete, 50yo, (I thought he was about 38yo) never married. I was still stunned and confused by my X’s behavior and just blurted out my story to him. He said, “Oh, that’s a malignant narcissist.” Then he proceeded to tell me about the woman (lawyer) who stalked him and how he learned to be “boring”. His dad was a P and mom is n-lite (as he called her) Brothers are also n’s but he overlooks it.
He is in bankruptcy law and has his own shingle. He said that in the law profession, knowing how to tell a P has saved his ass many times. The P will come in asking for advice and then do the exact opposite. He has to be alert for this type of behavior so that he doesn’t end up compromising himself because a client thought he could do whatever he wants instead of following Greg’s instructions.
I imagine that as a criminal lawyer you have more than your share of P’s, but your knowledge of P’s could be your ace. Just a thought.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:06pm
keensight says:
I’ve been reading these posts for some time now and am really grateful to have found this website. The last several years have been absolutely heartbreaking for me because
of things S/N/P in my life have done. I wish I’d known how they react to the setting of healthy boundaries before I’d done so. As what has been done by them has changed who I
am irrevocably and much of it has not been good in the short term. What I do know is that in the long term, if I stick with this process, then I have a clear shot at serenity.
So many of the things that you all have shared have been healing for me just in the knowledge that others have lived through this hell and are working toward healing. Your kindness and regard and support to and of one another is so heartwarming. It’s been an extremely isolated time for me.
Reading the blog articles and your comments have kept me
on an even keel through what has to be undeniably one of the most painful chapters in my life. Thanks for being here.
I wrote a poem tonite because so much feeling about what has happened has needed an outlet for expression. Tears are healing and very cathartic, unfortunately I’m unable to cry.
Writing about this has been helpful and has helped to define
in words some, my experience with them (N/S//P) as what
has been done to my life by them has left little in the way of
what I once called my life. I call this poem REALIZATION.
I have been stripped to the bone
By the words you so casually hurl.
YOU cannot know how many times
I’ve braced against them in the past.
But today is different.
I’ve found something in this wave of grief
I wasn’t willing to discover when grief
Last washed upon the barren shore
I call my life.
It is my self I found.
Through the cruelty of your words
Filled with the only emotion you can afford to share.
Your anger laid bare my aching soul and
In that moment I ceased to care.
Ceased to care as I gathered my shattered dignity
And self-esteem, barely recognizable
After all these years.
Your contempt for me and mine for myself
Is finally enough.
This wave of grief you are
Is no stranger to me, yet unlike the waves
On the sea that recede and bring calm,
Your wave washes continuously over me.
Wave of anger that brings my fear,
Sorrow and regret.
Waves of my own emotions.
Sadly, the only ones left elicited by you.
What is it in your face I scan so desparately for
In recognition? A familiarity no longer there?
With my eyes I search your face, once a beloved
Terrain. Your lips, the line of your jaw, the color of
Your hair and eyes.
Your eyes like empty hallways that echo in their emptiness
And it is always the refrain of contempt in your voice
That sends reverberations of their emptiness through me.
A stranger you are to me and a stranger still am I to myself
For loving one that I now clearly see, will never
Know or feel my love, let alone be able to
Return that love to me.
I am a blind man feeling my way around
Terrain, I once called myself. I’m unable to
Recognize and name the broken pieces of my Self
That I so graciously allowed you to shatter.
And yet who is to blame for my brokenness?
Did I WELCOME YOU into the WHOLENESS of my Being?
Or did you sense, as your kind always do,
Fervent desire for another to create completion?
YOU are only a mirror. One that’s become fogged
With time. Time that entrapped within its reflection,
Desires and hopes I so deeply cherish.
I refused to wipe it clean,
Refused to gaze directly into YOU and see that nothing,
No redemptive value even now remains.
This wave of grief is what you are to me.
This is all that is left of you.
One day you will cease to wash over the shore
Of my Being.
You shall have washed me clean of illusions.
I, in turn, will have discovered my sight, my SELF,
Repaired through painful yet honest self reflection.
No longer will your kind be able to approach
Bearing nothing and taking without any reciprocity.
I WILL SEE you and recognize that which is
Broken and beyond repair, only to turn away
As you approach, eloquent in my silent explanation.
Silent and in strength discovered, through the pain and sorrow
That your kind come bearing.
Realization.
H.B. Copyright October 2009
Peace and thank you to everyone here walking the path to healing and healthy self love.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:33pm
skylar says:
keensight,
thanks for sharing your feelings and welcome to posting on LF.
Anytime you need to share about your experiences we are here to listen.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:50pm
shabbychic says:
keensight, WOW, you just wrote that tonight? I think it is wonderful, your screen name is perfect, you do have keen sight into yoursef and the S. I hope you will post more. Thank you for sharing this, I hope you don’t mind it I copy and paste it into my journal!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:12am
henry says:
Hauntingly Beautiful – well written Keensight – welcome.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:22am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Steve, thank you, thank you, thank you. You are so acute, and so funny.
I have a friend right now who is simultaneously extricating herself from a toxic-parents situation and dealing with a new boss who is a raging narcissist. And from both fronts, she brings these stories of her attempts to set boundaries or hold onto her ethics or just her right to think for herself at all. And they’re all alike. Attacking her. Belittling her. Telling her she’s mentally ill. Then throwing in a dose of “concern” about whether she’s sleeping enough or if she’s considered taking antidepressants. And winding up with long rages designed to wear her down.
She’s been working on herself for years, just to learn how to defend herself from parents and a brutal corporate culture at work. Unlike most of us, she can’t get away from the sociopaths in her life (or felt she couldn’t because of ethical responsibilities). But recently she’s moved into a new kind of thinking about what she wants and doesn’t want in her life. It’s kind of amazing to see what that’s done for her. What used to pierce her is becoming noise. Just repetitive performances by people with emotional issues who want to control her.
Formerly all her energy went to strategizing about how to minimize the punishment and developing better self-defense skills for the inevitable daily rounds of personal abuse. Now suddenly she’s beginning to say things like “I don’t want all this abuse of me and other people in my environment” and she’s thinking seriously about where she’s found pleasure and satisfaction in recent years, so she can understand what she really wants in her life.
If someone asked me what “awe” means, I’d probably think about some of the best sunsets I’ve seen. But watching this woman discover this idea of choice is one of the most awe-inspiring things I’ve ever seen. She’s been coming to me for advice for years. But now I’m just shutting up, because I have nothing to add to what she’s doing for herself.
I’m not sure why I’m telling this story here, except maybe to say that it is possible to eventually see through the flim-flam, even the residue that’s taken residence in our heads. They are the weenies, the ones who can’t survive on their own and have to parasite off other people to survive. If they were involved with us, it’s because we were stronger and more competent and more resourceful. They leave us feeling the opposite, but it’s only because they’ve been draining us or putting us down to make us afraid we can’t survive without them.
That’s the big lie. Not what they tell us about themselves and all their phony emotions or secret activities. It’s what they make us think about ourselves. That’s what Steve’s funny, perfect dialog was really about. A weak, incompetent parasite trying desperately to hold onto its source.
Again, thank you, Steve. I hope you do more radio. I hope someday to see you on Saturday Night Live and the Daily Show. If you ever decide to get famous and need some PR, let me know.
Kathy
PS — keensight, I LOVE your poem.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:59am
Isabell says:
Keensight,
WOW!… Exactly!
You have an amazing talent. Thank you for sharing it with us.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:13am
Isabell says:
I love it here…
I used to write, and write trying to understand. Here, I read, and read, receiving affirmation. How beautiful is that?
Steve… the timing of your article blows me away. Just yesterday, my daughter had me listen to cell phone video recordings of conflicts she’s having with her dad, my ex. There are 64 recordings. She was confronting him on why he hung up on her, and how it made her feel, when the began darting off into different directions.
She’s only 15, but could be a lawyer with her concrete reasoning, and ability to stay focused. As he deflected, projected, blamed, these were like softballs for her (she’s an athlete), and she knows the rules of the game, always aware of every position. She’d catch his lie, and serve it back, demanding explination.
What became profoundly intersting, as he was dodging her questions about “their” relationship, he exposed hidden truths about things he’s done to defraud me financially. He exposed his true intentions regarding visitation and custody. Much of which was lost on my daughter, because she doesn’t know the details of our case. She was quite amused at my reactions to his unintentional confessions. Hehee
When she served back his line of bull, with the force of truth, he regressed to childish taunting, that equaled to “Nanner, nanner, Nanner.” And, he’s a 50 year old man.
As I listened to these, at some point, I began to feel that fog thing. I began to question what I thought I heard. Especially when he validates his claim by insisting one of the experts in our case sanctioned his belief system (the court appointed therapist). My daughter, on the other hand, could freeze the recording, remind me of a previous claim, then start the recording where he contradicted himself. She’s good.
I hope it is ok to print the articles. I want my daughter to read this.
I’ll wait for the ok, before I print.
Thank you, Steve. Wonderfully accurate.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:34am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Slimone, Newlife, Isabell, Pollyananomore, Kathleen (hello!), LostInGrief, and anyone I’ve omitted who commented on my post (yes, Matt!)…thank you really so much.
Please don’t take my lack of more specific feedback to your comments as relating to a lack of interest–I find the time to read your feedback and value what you share tremendously….unfortunately, I often lack the time to respond with as much thought as I know your feedback deserves, so rather than reply superficially or incompletely, I sometimes choose to simply acknowledge it.
But, for what it’s worth, know that I register what you share and that it affects me meaningfully and seriously.
Again, many thanks. And Isabell, I can’t think of a reason why you can’t share relevant articles with your daughter?
Steve
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 8:32am
skylar says:
we all know that the P’s are parasites because they take out money, our love, and anything else that isn’t nailed down. Today it occurred to me that they are also parasites of our imaginations. A mythological creature can’t exist unless our imaginations allow him to exist. He needs US to imagine him as he projects himself. Without this validation he doesn’t exist.
Maybe the word parasite is the best description of a P.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 9:55am
keensight says:
Steve thanks for all the fine articles you’ve written. They’ve given a great deal of insight into what was previously obscured about the disorder. I’ve read most of the articles on here from the regular contributors and derived a great deal from reading the posted comments and stories.
Finding the website filled in many gaps because the personal stories illustrate the complexities and nuanced differences in each persons life and how they are learning to speak the language of the sociopath so that they will understand that
Letting go means really detaching from them permanently. Skylar thanks for the offer to listen and the kind comments from everyone else.
Much of my previous knowledge centered around my own codependency issues from years back. Enmeshment and the toleration of inexcusable behavior and treatment provided the need for a foundation of truth about what was mine and
What their issues were. I attended a 12 step program for codependency and learned a great deal from others and biblio
Therapy. I didn’t know much about Narcissism as it is presented here. The closest I got to naming it was reading a very helpful book by an author/therapist by the name of Pia Mellody. The book, entitled Love Addiction, breaks down the
Components of unhealthy relationship dynamics of Love Addicts and Love Avoidants and illustrates how they attract
To one another and what the parties are actually trying to resolve or work out in the relationship.
She focuses on the Love Addict and how the person in this position repetitively tries to get needs met through an unavailable or Love Avoidant partner. I don’t remember the word Narcissist being used, but the dynamics sure do
Describe the Love Avoidant partners.
My first real romantic relationship encounter with a Narcissist left me unable to trust myself to make good assessment of the character of any individual, but in hindsight I know he moved everything along much too fast. Matt was correct when he stated the mask starts slipping at about the third month. I actually felt it in my gut the first time he told what I
Believed to be a major lie, but just couldn’t bring myself to believe someone so romantic and warm appearing would do that. It wasn’t until he later revealed the truth in a cold and brutal way that I got my first look at him with his mask
Down. I’ve had trust issues ever since. Once I knew he was cheating I was outta there, no explanations needed or wanted. I was grateful to get out. Keen sight? Maybe. More like Hypervigilant Sight, but keen sight is shorter!
That was many years ago. I know I have much better understanding about how they operate now. I’ve had to learn through very painful recent experiences that you don’t share what you know about them with anyone, especially another one of their victims. I’d no idea the extent to which they will go to punish and destroy you for this. I am aware now and acutely so. Thanks again for letting me share with you my experiences of this.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:00pm
Isabell says:
Skylar,
“they are also parasites of our imaginations. A mythological creature can’t exist unless our imaginations allow him to exist. He needs US to imagine him as he projects himself. Without this validation he doesn’t exist.”
Wow… OMG! That’s it!
Whew..I’m going to have to ponder this for awhile.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 2:18pm
newlife08 says:
MATT
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 2:42pm
newlife08 says:
MATT
Lost the whole post !!!!!
Divorce has to get back on the calendar – waiting for the forensics report and more info from him – and then he probably won’t pay them and so they won’t release the report.
My lawyer actually got into a shouting match with me last week because I won’t take a crap settlement.
He says it is safer to get out now – with basically nothing.
That my priority should be to just get away from him.
I tell him my settlement has to be a priority because what if I have to chase him for support?
He is self-employed-minimally-so there is nothing to garnish.
Continuing to fight him for years in court -I won’t have money for that.
I am burning out on this divorce but I don’t know what else to do.
any pearls of wisdom-drop ‘em on me, Matt.
So glad to hear you are in a good relationship and I’ll keep you in my prayers for the right job !!!!!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 2:52pm
Matt says:
newlife08:
Well, it was my turn to lose my whole post. Here are a couple of thoughts on trying to drive this to a settlemtn.
First, what is the expected child support per child per month (X dollars/month times # of months until child is 18) I agree that you will be chasing him for support, but maybe you could make him an offer for a cash settlement for each child up front. To sweeten the offer (in his eyes) offer to discount the amount to present value.
In connection with this, were you planning to try for him to pay for your children’s college tuition? I suspect this falls into the good luck category. However, you might be able to make this work to your advantage in getting him to lump sum the payment — offer to let him off the hook for that ON THE CONDITION that you have a certified check in your hands before the judge issues his decree.
As for the property settlement, how is his restaurant doing? I now you said his construction business was flat-backed and flat-lined. Is the business viable or is it on the ropes like so many restaurants here in NYC? The reason I am asking is that if the restaurant tanks are you on the hook for the debts related to it — especially since he was leveraging marital assets to build the rsstaurant. If the restaurant going to go down and the creditors are going to be seizing real estate, etc, I would grab what cash you can now. Cash can be hidden, unlike real estate. If you can keep him out of bankruptcy 6 months to a year do you think you take another run at him for the summer house and your home? End of the day, you have to decide how much resources it is worth shelling out if the creditors are going to be seizing assets at the end of the day.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 3:42pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you so much Steve. I always get so much from your posts. These traits were VERY validating for me. Bingo times seven!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 5:35pm
Isabell says:
http://www.facebook.com/l.php?.....3ce9e6108f
I don’t know if this will work. It is such a funny song on UTube about letting go of the N. A must see.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 5:58pm
Isabell says:
Newlife..
I don’t know if this applies, everywhere, but I’ve been told by my attorney that the foriensics CANNOT withhold the findings to the court due to non-payment.
I had foriensics done our mine and my ex’s business, to which the foriensic just copied what I had already produced (in previous posts I’ve explained my hyper focus to detail). My ex had not produced anything, no ledgers, no chart of accounts, nothing other then bank statements. Not even tax returns. The foriensic had to prepare these records based on the bank statements. I refused to pay for this. Now, we need the records. I told my attorney that I had not paid the final bill. He told me that it is unethical for the findings to be held hostage for payment. And, he also told me the particular foriensic was a court.. “whore.” He believes my ex’s father paid him off, and that’s the reason we copies of what I had already produced.
We have to start over with another foriensic. :-/ No matter, I have discovered more.
Anyway, find out what the laws are in your area.
Good luck.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:12pm
starlight says:
Thank you so much Steve for your post. I can’t express to you enough how your postings help me to be freer each time I read them. The dialouge you presented helped me to step outside of myself and look at the situation objectively. It has been almost 4 years that my SP has been out of my life. But I am haunted by him. I still have these replays of conversations that I had with him in my head and I question myself as to whether I caused it all. I didn’t. I really didn’t. That is what I took from your postings. All of the twisting. Everything being my faut, always, that’s what he told me.
I could tell he was “getting off” on twisting me. I could feel it, but I just couldn’t believe it. A book that has been suggested to me by the members of this site is “Betrayal Bonds” It has been really helping me as I go through and do the excercizes. But I must truly say, your posts help to re-ground me when I get off track. Thank you so much because you are helping me to save my life.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:18pm
style1 says:
Great posts… yes, he wanted me to see him, imagine him in how he contrives and projections himself. He is a word master, uses foreign words and likes to use large words that most don’t use in usual talking. He likes to show how ‘intelligent’ that he is and he is such a boor. He will be talking then say a French word in French. IHis behavior is so affected that it is pathetic. He tries so hard to appear high class that he is low-class. And no boundaries. He butted into my life referring to my new house as ‘our’ house in the first three weeks that we began dating. He stated what it yours is mine and what is mine is yours. The difference being all he had is debt, no real assets. He was claiming what is mine as his. I felt it. I didn’t buy it. He gives the illusion of class, of money of spirituality or integrity and he is the exact opposite. I never was totally hooked but I stayed long enough to let him into my life. I bought part of his contrived illusions.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 10:55am
style1 says:
He sits in his head and observes. He says just enough.. but never reveals himself totally like to my father. I watched him with successful men and he plays the no information game well. His father was married five times and his mother three .. he had no real stability in his life.. My parents were married for 55 years and while not perfect, I had a nice family invironment.. at least, it was stable and my father does what he says. Which might be one of my issues with men. My father started with nothing, worked hard and became very successful. So,I tend to believe men when they say that this is what that they will do.. but they don’t. They are conning. My father was real.
I am not buying into what will be. And I knew not to.. but this man was convincing and I think that his spiritual angle, I am so good, is what caught me off guard. And yes, he could cry at the drop of a hat. In fact, in the beginning of our relationship, he cried alot. He told me how his son died of a brain tumor. His past made me feel sorry for him. He has more trama in his life than I have ever heard of. Two children with brain tumors. That is almost unheard of. Several of my friends made the comment that he could bring in negative energies because he is always meditating and his eyes roll back into his head.. It is disgusting. It looks evil. I don’t know. Just something is really off about him and he tried to overtake my beliefs, my life, my property. He asked me to give him my bank account number and routing number so that he could deposit money in my account. When I spent money and he reimbursed me. I said NO! Another friend told me that he wanted my life. I prayed to God to protect me and to reveal things to me. I layed in MY BED, to a man I was engaged to praying for God to protect me.. how CRAZY is that and why did I allow this thing into my life? That is why I am on here reading to understand WHY???
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:11am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
STARLIGHT, i am so incredibly glad my posts are helpful to you, and thank you for the incredibly generous expression of your appreciation.
Awesome that you’re so committed to opposing the manipulative brainwashing…keep taking care of yourself, Starlight, using every useful resource you can find to support your commitment to your emotional safety and integrity.
And again, your appreciative words are music to my ears!
Steve Becker
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 11:45am
candyharlau says:
i shuttered when i read “The sociopath, for instance, may recognize, and even pay very close attention, to your mood.”
I remember him saying that he watched me carefully…he could read me… because ‘he is a psych nurse’ (in his own mind…he’s an LPN)
The ‘interaction’ conversation is classic. How they turn the table. All of a sudden you’re the problem. He could be screwing someone right in front of me, and he would deny it. You could have pics, and he still would deny.
I can hear him talk to people now about me…i stalked him, i was crazy, he had to pay for everything, he never committed domestic violence, etc, etc. The b.s. goes on and on.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:46pm
style1 says:
Also.. the condesending way that he lectured and spoke to me at times. Like I was so beneath his intellect. His tone of voice felt almost evil at those times.. and I recall in the beginning of the relationship asking him what one of his wife’s complaints were about him.. and he said his voice tone.. at that time, I couldn’t see it but Wow.. I saw it.. What she saw what I saw were the same then he denied that he ever told me that about his ex when I brought it up. Selective memory.. this man is a word master and like to play with minds.. he is in sales and he has admitted to me that the company that he works for rips clients off. It is a consulting firm and it is under investigation.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:47pm
candyharlau says:
four months to the day, NC.
———————
Ask a P a question………..i will never forget these two responses from my xP!
i come home, wake him up for work, and ask him how his afternoon was…he had one or the other response:
1) ‘questions, questions, you know i don’t like questions,’ and
2) ‘i do the same thing every day. why do you have to ask the same question every day…’
Gotta add the tone of the voice, too.
It worked. I stopped talking, i stopped asking questions. i stopped caring..i even dreaded waking up the monster. WHY DIDN”T I KICK HIM OUT THEN!?!?!?>!#!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 12:49pm
candyharlau says:
well, well…i write this blog at 12:49, and the xP tries to make contact…sends me an email at 1:36………
creepy
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 1:17pm
Petra60 says:
I had a real epiphany this weekend. Since I am not interested in “violent” movies – I never watched “No country for Old Men”…but, there is was – on some channel – late at night – and it changed the way I thought of my sociopathic ex-husband and son. I finally “got it”. (After 35 years, tons of books, long therapy sessions, and neverending hope – I got it.)
The main character was a man without conscience, compassion, remorse. He didn’t care about others, didn’t care about the money, didn’t even care about his own welfare. On some level – he realized that other human beings valued their life – no matter how dismal, greedy or loving – something that he found midly entertaining. This evil person was devoid of all human emotion.
What was so obvious in this movie is that this man was never going to change. He wasn’t going to wake up one day and honor life, himself or the law.
He just didn’t care.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 1:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Petra,
You know, that is a pretty profound philosophy in your above post.
They are NOT ever going to change. I am sorry that you also have a P-offspring, that is a painful thing to have for a caring person. Accepting it is painful, but we can eventually ‘get there” once we grasp the concepts of your philosophy. It was difficult for me, and I assume it is also difficult for the parents of other psychopaths (who are NOT themselves also psychopaths).
I also got around to watching “No country for old men” and it was an interesting movie to me. there are others that also depict psychopaths well—and chillingly.
I’m glad you are here Petra, it is a healing place. God bless.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:10pm
skylar says:
Petra, congrats on you epiphany. I’ve had a few since discovering the P’s and like you, fictional literature and character portrayals in movies have been a big part of understanding. It helps the subconscience put a human face to what would otherwise be just a list of P-traits.
I’ll put that movie on my list.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:30pm
justabouthealed says:
The P I was involved with is one that is almost idolized in our culture… the Thomas Crown character. Thomas Crown (in the second version) is truly a P….in that he withhold information, to purposefully make his “girlfriend” suffer, even at the end watches her cry before revealing his presence (at which she is playfully angry but SO happy…ugh!) And before the end, he knows she is suspecting an affair, but again he withholds information to sort of test her while hiding behind loyalty. PLUS he his whole criminal act is just for the thrill of pulling one over on people. He is ALL about power for the sake of power, (and sex) and yet the audience adores his accomplishments, his daring exploits, his wealth, even his coldness…and overlooks the tiny fact that he is a common thief, cold, arrogant, autocratic, and presenting a false front. He is meant to be a likable character, otherwise the movie doesn’t “work”, but I think for many of us on LF, we would find him repulsive. I hope so!
In real life, after she runs off with him, he will devalue her and discard her, especially as she becomes loving and therefore “boring” as the cat and mouse game is over. The power plays are over, and her love will feel like demands and exploitation to him. And he will be gone and she will be left wondering what happened to her. Emotional rape! But the movie ends before all that.
And like Thomas Crown appears to think, I think some of these types of “white collar P’s” actually THINK they are in love, and then ooopsss…..no, turns out real intimacy feels like they are being controlled and they can’t have that!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 3:47pm
style1 says:
Yes. It is an emotional rape.. He told me that I was going to love him.. he did everything a woman could want to have done or to hear in the beginning.. He was like Mr. Perfect. He was suffocating and even in the beginning I was suspecious. His talk about his ‘big deals’ that we would move to Jamacia … on and on.. he worked hard and seemed so intense to be a success and to take care of me.. yeah.. while in reality I took care of myself.. He saw a vision where he would buy me a Jag.. Well..I bought my own Jag. He drove his mother’s toyota.. he was such a facade of success and abundance.. I asked him later why not just be who you are and where you are..? Just be a man? But then I realized that would make his existance to normal.. he needed to think that he was some spiritual guru and on the brink of being some great financial success.. so that he could be the hero of everyone…. It got so tiring listening to him yak and yak and yak… and lecture.. as credit card applications came with a decline. He had bad credit and lived paycheck to paycheck.. and all he talked about is one of his big deals making.. while I cooked him gourmet meals and in lived in a bed that I paid for. WHat a fool I was… but now it’s behind me… YEAH!!!!!
All he is and was is charm… oh, he works hard and does the best that he can.. but his Spin and illusions and dreams are how he stays able to survive and he sucks the woman into his delusions with him.. He couldn’ support me.. he had no business being with a woman like me.. he was all pretend.. all con .. all delusions….
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 4:09pm
style1 says:
and still occasionally it fleetingly pops into my mind that he will make a deal and come get me.. then I will know that he loves me for me and not what I can give him…LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 4:11pm
ErinBrock says:
GOOD NEWS GOOD NEWS!!!!!
I just got a notice from the courts!!!!
The ruling is FINAL!
After the Sociopath ordeal was final…..I came into contact with Sociopath #2 through business……
HE SUED ME! I wrote about it last week……..
Well the summary judgement was finalized this week, and I just got a notice from the courts……
I knew I had followed the law, got advice and went accordingly.
Soc#2 lied and lied in court, was chastised by the judge, acted irrationally, dodged questions yadayada….
I GOT HIM BY THE BALLS…..and he don’t like it!
Ha farker!!!! I got something IMPORTANT he wants……and I ain’t gonna give it up! OR……PAY ME!
He owes me over 10K……unpaid debt….reality says I won’t ever see my money…..so…….this is a consolation!
AND THE JUDGE THOUGHT SO TOO!
I won’t be intimidated, I won’t be bullied…….what he doesn’t realize is I have walked this path prior to him….JUST PRIOR to him…..so I am primed and ripe for battle with a SOCIOPATH!!!!
I was able to serve him a suit during our hearing last week…..this latest, pretty much assures that he won’t show up, I will receive a judgement and turn it over to collections……but HA…..I can now alert ALL the other folks of his whereabouts that he owes money too and child support, warrants and non paid court fines…….
I can alert the immigration folks since his wife is not legal…..and to apply for citizenship you can’t have any outstanding legal issues or write bad checks…….this may be a bummer……
Ohhhhh, how it would have been much easier for him to pay me as our contract stated!!!!
I AM HIS WORST NIGHTMARE!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 6:21pm
skylar says:
WHOOOOHHOOOOOO ERIN!!
congrats on your VICTORY!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 7:07pm
Stargazer says:
EB, justice is so sweet, isn’t it? Congratulations!!!! Some of these sociopaths are so focused on playing games, they can’t see the forest for the trees. Mine was like that, too. He wanted to play games with me. But he messed with the wrong person. He ended up getting charged with fraud and adultery and found guilty. Thanks to me. LOL
TOWANDA, sister!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 7:57pm
ErinBrock says:
It is just awesome!
It’s like being able to put my SOHK university degree to use! (School of hard knocks)
It’s freeing and validating and confirming……
We just gotta remember what we learned and knock em out with it!
Your so right….they are focused on the games….not the prize…..they are so convinced from their day to day interactions that they are soooooo convincing and good at the play……I love laying under that rock and striking hard, only when I know I will be successful!!!
Nothing like watching a sociopath be deflated……
Its like watching an 85 lb woman beat the shit out of a 6′5 350lb wrestler that tried to rape her!
THATS RIGHT>>>>THEY MESS WITH THE WRONG WOMEN!!!
SURVIVORS UNITE!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 8:18pm
amber says:
CONGRATS EB!!! That’s amazing!! I too feel like my ex S messed with the wrong person, and I would LOVE to even the score with him and I know I have the power. But so many people tell me not to. Everyone tells me that, “he’ll get what’s coming to him.” Has anyone ever thought that maybe I’m the one that’s supposed to give him what he’s got coming??!?!?! He is a ramp manager at LAX for a major airline…let’s just say, going high to work is a big no no!! Sometimes I just want to let that airline know that their passengers aren’t safe because he’s operating under the influence. His job would be gone in a heart beat. And he’s been living here on a green card for 20 years. Maybe if he was facing criminal drug charges they would deport his ass back to England?!?! Ohhhhh I can’t tell you how that would make my day. Can you tell that I’ve put some thought into this? LOL! I just want him to hurt as much as I have. But so many people tell me that I would be stooping to his level. I don’t know, sometimes I feel that I’m entitled to ruin his life. Why should I care?!?! He didn’t give a S#!% about me?!?! Anybody feel free to jump in on this one. I’m just so sick of him getting away with ruining people’s lives.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:39pm
amber says:
P.S. I have a date next week!! I’m scared to death..but excited..yikes!! It’s been a looooong time since I’ve felt ready to even attempt to get to know someone new.
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 9:41pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Hooray, Erin! That is such good news.
This makes me think about something I’m not sure how to articulate. But I’m curious what you think about it.
Do you think that there’s a major difference between being afraid of them and having a healthy respect for the damage they can do? In observing you, I’m always struck by the fact that you that you’re concerned about the potential damage — and you do whatever you can to win these encounters — but you’re not overly impressed by the sociopaths you deal with.
Me neither. The more I think about them, the more I think they’re weenies with very impressive fronts. Very plausible, very attached to all the badges of power, very “well dressed” in a shallow but shiny sort of way. But if you can penetrate the front, or if they get distracted from keeping it seamless, you see the chaos and the childish emotional system behind it.
If we’re dependent on them in some way — like being married to them or having children with them — this is very bad news. We’re not dealing with the personalities we thought we could trust.
But if were in battle with them, especially in legal situations, it can provide some definite advantages. Like they really have a hard time dealing with facts that illuminate how disorganized and chaotic their versions of truth are. And when stressed, they often respond by making their fronts more and more grandiose, until it becomes apparent that they have no real grip on reality.
The fact that your judge saw through him is something that we might see as a matter of luck, if we’re overly impressed with the ability of sociopaths to bluff their way through anything. But I’m not sure that’s so. I think that a good number of people do see through them, and particularly when given an opportunity to see how they respond to challenges, especially factual ones.
Which is why your advice to keep records of everything is so good. You are basically approaching the legal arbiters and saying, “Okay you’ve seen him and his front and his emotional arguments. Now here’s me and my front and my facts. What looks correct to you?”
Because I think that’s one of the odd things about them. Their arguments tend to be emotional. Either their own emotions or attributing emotions or emotional motivations to other people. We find it so outrageously disrespectful when they describe us to other and to ourselves as having base or manipulative or childish motivations. But if you consider that they really can’t deal with the facts — because they are lying and manipulating all the time and the facts are not their friends — it sort of looks different, doesn’t it? They don’t look quite so impressive.
I’ll never forget the evening when I was telling someone about my story with my ex, and he just shrugged and said, “Oh well, you got involved with a user.” As though it was a well-known type. I live in the country, and he was a country man. And I wondered at the time if that was just the kind of common sense that comes from being country-bred.
But then, I also know that virtually everyone around me recognized my ex for what he was. When I moved to new locations, and he followed me, he consistently managed to alienate everyone I had befriended. Not in trying to get them out of my life, but just all on his own. When he worked for me, the one client I ever gave him to manage, refered to him as the troglodyte.
Obviously, this isn’t universally true. We all have our stories of being involved with popular guys who turned out to have another personality at home. But I think that maybe there are a whole lot more people than we know that actually do recognize these people, maybe not at first sight, but very quickly if given a little personal exposure.
And that maybe if we weren’t so impressed by their demonic ability to hypnotize people into doing their bidding (namely us), we might go into battle with them with a little more confidence and the kind of ammunition that you take with you.
Long-winded as usual. Sorry. But what do you think, Erin? Does any of this resonate with you?
Kathy
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 10:00pm
shabbychic says:
EB you are F-A-B-U-L-O-U-S !!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 10:25pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
EB, what I really meant to say is that you are such an inspiration. I got so caught up in the ideas your post inspired that I forgot to say that.
It’s your successes that help us realize that they are not unbeatable. It doesn’t mean that we want them in our lives. But when we wake up and have to fight them to control the rest of our lives, you have described some real principles of how to do it. Like go in knowing what you want. And bring the facts with you.
Your successes keep changing my idea of the possible. Thank you!!!
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Tuesday, 27 October 2009 @ 11:04pm
valerie says:
Steve -
I spent 30 years with my ex-husband – at the end of our relationship I was emotionally exhausted. I’m now able to recognize the constant manipulation that occured – the lies & deception. Also within his large family. Following that 30 year relationship I was in a 3 year spin with a sociopath — I’ve worked through the 3 year relationship….
and now… The 30 year relationship is the place my mind wants to go. I’m constantly surprised by a simple action within my day that triggers a memory of deceit and my past constant state of confussion.
I read your scenario, the interation between Wife & Sociopath – I saw myself & my ex-husband. Our language was always calm and his denial was quick & convincing & my questions stopped & the thoughts were buried. These interactions were on-going during the 30 years. I generally thought of myself as someone that just seemed to have ongoing PMS or a short circut; something was wrong with me. A trusted friend once telling me; “you will never be happy.” My ex and his family are well liked and they take a lovely family photo. It is only now & years later & enough time away from he & his family that I’m able to recognize the daily assault on my mind.
A few days ago I had a conversation with my ex-husband — his tricks of deception no longer work. I was shocked at how obvious his deception was; that I could recognize the language of deceit and I felt strong, great, empowered. I was frustrated by the conversation for a short period of time. I was able to recover without further damage or by sending myself into a spin. He and his family had such a hold on me for years. I met this man when I was 17. I was naive and vulnerable. It’s amazing to me that my mind can heal. Each day I think I have Mental Clarity and I’m darn good; and then I realize I’m still healing because the next month I’ll recognize that I’m stronger and better.
I’ve isolated myself a great deal this past year & thankfully have had the finances to stay closed up in my home to read & explore & heal. This has been a journey. A crazy journey.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 12:21pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Valerie: Amazing how alike our lives are. I was married to my x for almost thirty years….and for the last year…I’ve been closed in my home healing, writing and exploring. I also have spoken with him and his tricks are obvious and no longer work. *high five
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 1:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Valerie,
It takes time and WORK and peace to heal…glad you are here and healing! Keep on reading and learning, there is much to absorb and understand but I think yo uare WELL on your way to ‘getting it” and overcoming the devestation such a relationship can have. God bless!
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 1:12pm
skylar says:
hooray, valerie!
mine was 25 years. a prison sentence.
but yes, his lies are no longer effective, they make me laugh. then I told him that he was a sociopath and sang a sad sociopath song to him on the phone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE
he kept hanging up when he heard the music.
then he would call back and I’d play it again.
He’s a musician and he used to say that I couldn’t sing, but I can sing this song perfectly which I knew would burn him up. He envys EVERYTHING.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 2:03pm
valerie says:
Twice Betrayed – thank you & right back to you — high five.
Ox Drover – thank you for your thoughtful words.
skylar – you sent me on a tour of coldplay via youtube – I enjoyed the music from “viva la vida” I’m hoping I found the correct spanish/english translation = “long live life” and the album cover painting named;”Liberty Leading The People.”
thank you all – very touching.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 3:52pm
skylar says:
Hi Valerie,
I’m glad you liked the song. I think the translation is “living the life” but it could be construed as “long live life” too.
The lyrics and those sad violins tell the story of a narcissist who went from illusions of grandeur to delusions of paranoia. That’s why I like making the xP listen to it. Also because it makes him hang up the phone.
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 7:02pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Valerie: thanks!
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 8:48pm
Twice Betrayed says:
That verbal exchange between wife and s was something right out of my past……right down to the language…
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Wednesday, 28 October 2009 @ 9:29pm
style1 says:
The commonality is that they have a self-serving agenda and they use whatever that they have in their skill set and charms to achieve this.. And when their agenda is not believed, followed or adhered to then that is when their real person emerges.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:59pm
IMconfused says:
This article perfectly describes my husband! It also makes me feel better about how I now handle things.
Questing him leaves me frustrated 99% of the time. He immediately changes the subject with retorts regarding things that virtually “everyone in the world” finds wrong about me!
When I remind him that he is changing the subject, he raises his voice in contempt while continuing to be demeaning to me. I ultimately walk away in disgust. Then he seems compelled to yell out one more nasty comment…to have the final word. That will usually be followed with days of him refusing to talk to me.
I have learned these things:
CHECK OUT THE VALIDITY OF EVERYTHING HE SAYS…ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! (There might be up to a 5% possibility that he’s actually telling the truth).
DON’T ARGUE WITH A BULLY. INSTEAD, KNOW THE DRILL…CONFRONTING WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING>>>EXCEPT PROBABLY GIVE HIM VALIDATION (now he can hold you responsible for his actions…you made him do things that he never would have done if you hadn’t driven him to do it) FOR DOING WHATEVER HE WOULD HAVE DONE ANYWAY.
HOW DO I DEAL WITH HIS BULLY BEHAVIOR?
Since confronting him ultimately leads to his silent treatment, I choose to ask those questions only when I need a well deserved “time out” from him! Lol!
In all fairness, I’ve only gotten to this point after 20 years of suffering with the madness resulting from trying to communicate logically with someone who lacks the ability to be logical.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:27pm
shabbychic says:
IMconfused, I hope you will stick around and read more articles. I think even his silent treatment is another way he is finding to abuse you emotionally. Of course he changes the subject when you ask him a question! They are experts at that!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 9:03pm
Wini says:
HI LF Buddies. I haven’t written in a while … but wanted to share this e-mail that I received from the Berean. As you are aware, there are many sides to an issue, the medical and the spiritual. I found these passages interesting since we discuss the EVIL ones that came into our lives.
Peace to everyone’s heart and souls as they heal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(12) Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; (13) but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hebrews 3:12-13
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
The will is the power or faculty by which the mind makes choices and acts to carry them out. At first, against his will, a person engages in some forbidden pleasure because he wants to, but if he keeps it up, he soon finds that he has no strength to resist it. This process does not happen anymore quickly than an addiction to alcohol, but in the end, he keeps sinning because he cannot help but do so! Once a thought or act becomes a habit, it is a short step to being a necessity. The old saying is true: “Sow an act and reap a habit; sow a habit and reap a character; sow a character and reap a destiny.”
Hebrews 3:12-13 reveals a worrisome characteristic of sin: “Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called ‘Today,’ lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.” Sin is seductive, enticing, deceitful, and hardening.
Sin’s deceitfulness is that it cannot deliver what it promises. It deludes a person into thinking he can “have it all” or “take it or leave it.” It promises pleasure, contentment, fulfillment, and life, but what it delivers in those areas is fleeting, which leads to its addictive quality. The pleasure is never quite enough to produce the desired contentment and fulfillment. Sinners are forced into greater perversions until it kills them.
Sin offers rationalizations and justifications. It puts on a plausible appearance and can even seem to be virtuous, as in situation ethics. However, sin’s drug-like quality always demands more because what formerly satisfied no longer will. The person in its grip gradually becomes its slave, and all along the way, his heart becomes hardened as well.
In Hebrews 3:13, hardened is translated from the Greek word for a callus. A callus forms around the break in a bone, on the palms of hands and on fingers from constant hard use, or in a person’s joints, paralyzing its actions. In a moral context, it suggests “impenetrable,” “insensitive,” “blind,” or “unteachable.” A hardened attitude is not a sudden aberration but a habitual state of mind that shows itself in inflexibility of thinking and insensitivity of conscience. It can eventually make repentance impossible.
Jeremiah 9:1-5 describes people in this state, so inured, so enslaved to sin that they weary themselves pursuing and doing it:
Oh, that my head were waters, and my eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my people! Oh, that I had in the wilderness a lodging place for wayfaring men; that I might leave my people, and go from them! For they are all adulterers, an assembly of treacherous men. “And like their bow they have bent their tongues for lies. They are not valiant for the truth on the earth. For they proceed from evil to evil, and they do not know Me,” says the LORD. “Everyone take heed to his neighbor, and do not trust any brother; for every brother will utterly supplant, and every neighbor will walk with slanderers. Everyone will deceive his neighbor, and will not speak the truth; they have taught their tongue to speak lies, and weary themselves to commit iniquity.”
John W. Ritenbaugh
From The Elements of Motivation (Part Seven): Fear of Judgment
Related Topics:
Addiction to Sin
Addictions
Addictive Quality of Sin
Habits
Habitual Sin
Hardening Hearts
Hardening of Conscience
Sin , Addictive Quality
Sin Destroys the Will
Sin, Deceitfulness of
Sin, Hardening Effects of
Slave of Sin
Spiritual Callus
©Copyright 1992-2009 Church of the Great God
The Berean: Daily Verse and Comment is made possible through voluntary contributions
to the Church of the Great God.
P.O. Box 471846
Charlotte, NC 28247
803-802-7075
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 8:39pm
shabbychic says:
Hi Wini !! Good to hear from you, thanks for the post, interesting how we can delude ourselves and then try to rationalize away everything, that’s what I did for a long time. Hope all is well with you!
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Thursday, 5 November 2009 @ 10:15pm
ErinBrock says:
Kathleen….
I’m sorry….I didn’t see your ‘gogetemgirl’ to me up above about 18 inches…..
THANKS FOR WRITING THAT, and I am glad I inspired these thoughts in you…..
Now to address your well written questions of me…..I hope I can respond with justice….
I have always attributed, as I told you before, my willingness to fight due to the fact that I was so downtrodden and after my cancer and et al….I got to the point when I gave up the fear.
As a youngster, into my mid 20’s I worried about EVERYTHING……back then….I came to the conclusion I was tired of worrying…..and realized that 99.9% of what we worry about never comes to fruition…..so each time I found myself in a state of worry….which was daily….does she like me, did I say something wrong, do something wrong, do a good job, make a good enough meal, park the car right, wear the right outfit, hurt someone’s feelings, blah, blah…..I started asking myself…….AM I, OR IS ANYONE I LOVE GOING TO DIE OVER THIS…..like DIE….as in death…the end….The answer was ALWAYS NO……so I trained myself to give up the worry and eventually I didn’t worry about everything…..It takes work and reminding myself to stand back and evaluate….
So….fast forward when I faced death…..ALONE…….I spent all these years fruitlessly worrying about others, and when I needed some worry at home plate, I was abandoned! Not only abandoned, but tortured….kids kidnapped, family alienated me and husband filed for divorce during treatments as a sabotage tactic.
I didn’t have much to live for, and I knew it would all be uphill…….but I wasn’t ready to die…..
So…….I gathered up my ‘fuck you’ attitude and decided to fight…..If I had of died…..I didn’t want the world talking about me as they had perceived (through his stories and lies) me……for eternity and brainwashing the kids with this as their memory of a mother who had always fought for them……
So this is where my ‘fuck you’ you are not going to kill me because…..I”M NOT AFRAID TO DIE attitude hit me….
I removed the fear of dying….my perception of the last, end, and greatest fear….
Whether it was the S or the Dissected Carotid artery or cancer killing me…..take me if it’s MY time…..BUT I AIN”T GONNA GO WILLINGLY.
So……the world changed for me……at that moment in time.
It kicked me in gear and I went high speed into healing, walking again, getting out there and doing what I needed to do….
Fear is very powerful, it can be paralyzing. I couldn’t be paralyzed……I wanted my kids safe and at home….so I had to give up fear.
YES…..I believe there IS a difference in being afraid VS having a healthy respect for the damage they are capable of.
One is fear and one is awareness.
I believe we should always be aware of everything around us……but NOT fear it!
I removed the being afraid equation and I decided I could do more damage to them, so they should be the one respecting ME with HEALTHY respect.
Since sociopaths see everything as win/lose…..I was going to do anything I could to expose and learn what it was I had to do…..tactic wise to repel BOTH of the sociopaths in my world…..the ex and the new business idiot. Legally! Show them legally, I was bigger, badder and not a force to be reckoned with. Like a tsunami…..we all think we can swim through one, until you have the wave hit!
I have taken precautions….alarm systems in my homes, security cameras, alerting the neighbors, having the police do house checks on both properties….
I won’t lie, cheat or steal…..and I have what we call dignity…..but I grew balls bigger than theirs and decided I was going to humble them in court…..and follow up hard in court, through the system to let them know…..I’ve got more smarts than you and I’ll use em! It’s empowering, and it enables me to teach my kids to stand up for what is right.
Since they are not capable of notching up their game, stop the lies and manipulations……I have a leg up there…..My story is always the same, because I have nothing to keep track of…..they do….but, they can’t!
I go in over prepared with the documentation….organized and presentable for the judge…..but I also go in organized and prepared with my body language for the S’s…..and this is a great tool…..invaluable.
Now….thus far, (and I hope it’s no more)….but whatever…bring it on…..I have only had 2 Sociopaths that I have gone into the courts with……but I have seen over 9 judges and 15 court appearances……and in the end is when I fine tuned the tactics directed AT the S’s. I paid attention to how everyone around responded to them, their behaviors and I learned how to approach the situation. I has worked for me.
Know the game!!!! Them, you and your judge.
Being concerned about the potential damage…..well….my safety…of course…..but I’m not going to run because of the fear, the threat. It goes back to I’m not afraid of dying concept.
Your question about the damage….as in things…..I separated myself out from my ‘things’ when I faced death…ya know….ya can’t take it with you…..BUT……it sure would be nice to live with them while I’m around…..so I am ambiguous about the items….I’ll fight for them, if they are bundled in the point and repelling the S’s…..yes….why not. It’s the cherry on the soda.
I think my main point in fighting is 2 fold…..exposure and repelling.
With the above, it adds to our element of safety, letting them know….sorry…I got your gig and I ain’t keeping my mouth shut about it and the law/courts/neighbors/ friends/family knows who you are! YOU CAN”T CONTROL ME, So stop trying, cuz your damn near jail with all your hiding!!!!
And if anything happens to me…….you’ll be the first person they look for!
If we look at how many of our sociopaths killed….(and I in no way mean any disrespect for those that have lived life threatening or lost their lives in situations of violence) it’s pretty low. Yes, Most Cluster B’s are talk, empty talk….destructive, but not gun toting, knife wielding kill you dudes. They are all capable of killing, but I am too….if we look at it that way.
So I place myself, in dealing with them….above them….I become smarter, savvier, more aware and more able to present a case that shows the truth….after that…it’s up to the judge…. I know my enemy and I don’t go in blind.
I do think, it’s KEY to be overly prepared, under emotional, emotional in the right presentations and hit all angles possible.
I didn’t know the inside out of the S #2…..the ex I knew inside and out, and can still predict his moves. Not the business S. I know him from what I reconned of him….and it was substantial recon….I have access to all his personal files…..he left them in the property and I evicted and took possession of everything. So I studied it all, every scrap. And made notes….Things that didn’t make any sense, made sense when I opened up another file folder….I put the puzzle of S #2 together. I contacted people undercover…..and I gathered other victims input on him….. I didn’t need much of it to present to the judge, because he had the burden to prove HIS case…..NOT ME.
So I didn’t reveal much…..just enough to let him know……I KNOW WHO YOU ARE! And I ain’t gonna keep my mouth shut and I could really cause you some damage with what I have!!!!
Another angle I took which also helped…..was going to community forums and asking this judge about how he deals with Cluster B’s from the bench…..He didn’t know about ‘cluster b’s’……Not surprisingly….so I went on my diatribe at the forum and they all were educated….surprising what a perceived ‘mentally ill’ person looks like when she’s educating the community……and rationally and answering questions and sparking interest…..(attacked two issues…..there). Hmmmmm not so psycho am I……Yes, I REALLY DID HAVE CANCER……thanks for the support!!!
I NOW use the description cluster B, when speaking with ‘outsiders’……because, if you ask someone if they know what a S is…..they all say yes,(and most have the perception of a killer, not their pastor, neighbor etc….) because we’ve all heard the word, but no one has the balls to say….NO, YA KNOW, I DON”T REALLY KNOW WHAT A SOCIOPATH IS……we’ve all been there….
But THEY ARE ALL stumped with CLUSTER B…..and ask WHAT a Cluster B personality disorder?…..and it’s my lead in…..I don’t have to force it on anyone……they ask….they are interested. Cluster B personality disorder……what’s that….
So….by going to this forum, and I only went because I knew we would meet this judge one day (the ex)and I had a personal agenda to network on MY level..…..it helped me personally and I’m sure it helped others……
Is that manipulation or networking? Hmmmm?
I think where they have a ‘leg up’ is in the lead up to court, the years or months it takes to get there….this is where we can’t take anything personal…..whatever they shoot, we need to listen and decode with the sociopaths dictionary…. NEVER TAKE IT PERSONAL…..They beat us up so badly leading up, that we end up saying enough, give it all to them. They financially destroy us, mentally, physically…..and this is where we break. This is where they win. But they don’t ever go away, they are NEVER HAPPY!
Again, in my case….it was the cancer/strokes/dissected carotid/alienation from my support etc….If THAT ALL DIDN”T BREAK ME……I was in for the long haul for sure.
It wasn’t easy…..there were a lot of times I doubted the process, I would back away for a few days….but I was always lead back. I knew I couldn’t walk away.
I changed attorneys……I couldn’t afford to…That was a vital move, I would not have done near as well……I would have been destroyed. My former attorney didn’t get it.
He told me straight up…..you can only choose one property….I said, no way….I have full title on my invest. Property….it’s always been mine…I’m not going to choose…..tell me the legal basis of your statement….he couldn’t provide a legal basis except my state was community property…It didn’t make sense! It was my legal property, I funded it, I managed it, and all rental checks came in MY name and I had ALL documentation…..WHY…he couldn’t give me an answer. I QUESTIONED AUTHORITY…..I’m good at that.
He eventually yelled at me…..at that point we no longer had a good working relationship and I felt like I was back with the S….kind of like….just shut up and do what I say…..I began to focus on finding the right attorney for my case…..this was a whole other bag of worms…..and costly….and very time consuming….I interviewed many….it was election time….I interviewed judges……I read books again…..and made the THANK GOD….right decision!
I paid attention to others advice that have been there….and weeded it out…..to fit my needs.
I read e-books about what others experience was like in court with a Narcissist. Essentially they are the same…..in court at least…..all a pain in the ass, all lying, all projecting and muddying the waters. I NEVER got involved with the muddying without documentation…….
Muddying works on the streets……because people love juice…and they squeeze it….but in a courtroom……mud is not productive to the S…..and Certainly NOT if it’s not provable.
Courts are based on facts! It’s a business transaction….cut and dry. S’s are emotional….this is why we can’t be! We need to be the CEO of our court dealings.
You wouldn’t go into a business meeting with shareholders in tears…..so control them in here! Period! AGAIN IT”S NOT PERSONAL, it’s all business!
S’s try and place us on the defensive……the whole time leading up to the hearings…and again in court…..There is NO LAW that we must respond to anything……we produce documents that are requested, but we don’t have to go on a letter writing campaign defending ourselves……NEVER! Stick with the facts. Bank statements, contracts, Deeds, former orders……and whatever you have documented Police reports, school reports, social workers reports, therapists reports, photos, videos, phone records etc….
Whatever it is you’re trying to show.
I knew what I was up against and dedicated myself to MY cause!
I think, in the end….yes….they are more threatening and we are certainly threatened from the intimate relationship we have had…..and this tends create more fear in us.
This is why our neighbors don’t believe us and are not scared of them, our family, our mutual friends…etc….if he was so scary, then why did you stay with them so long. They have a certain control over us that fears us out of fighting them in the legal arena.
In reality……I say fuckem…..let them know WHO you have become …..and if you find it a requirement……HAVE NO FEAR….THE EX OF A SOCIOPATH IS NOW HERE!!!!
After all that….I think I answered your question…..and yes, to sum it up….I agree with you Kathleen!!!
XXOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:03am
Isabell says:
Whewwwwwwwwweeeeee EB!!!!!!!
Another one I’m going to have to print so I can read it again, and again. Powerful stuff!! Empowering!! EXACTLY what I needed!!!
THANK YOU!!!!!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:48am
Wini says:
Hi Shabbychic. I didn’t rationalize that he was a good guy. I really thought I lucked out by finding this great guy. I chalk it up to two things:
1) focusing on my bosses and their cronies beating me down for 6 years … I was mortified and was so focused on keeping my head above water with their trumped up antics.
2) he’s a great actor … should go into show business, he’d win several academy awards. I really thought he was standing by my side through all of this. Never thinking he was playing me too. Boy, jealousy, greed and selfishness surely blind folks today!
I have a funny story to share. Well, not so funny for me … but funny if it didn’t happen to do with destroying my finances …
A letter came in a week ago addressed to my EX. By accident, it was torn open. I have no clue how that happened! I went to pick up the paperwork off the floor and happened to notice it was a collection agency notifying my EX of a outstanding bill he owed a jewelry store of some $1,200 plus dollars (engagement ring? Wedding ring? Didn’t come on my finger?)
I sat on that knowledge for a week and happened to answer the phone pertaining to the collection agent. I explained the situation … and she informed me that she googled my EX and he’s a real bad character … that I should look on the net regarding what others are saying about him and that this women even put his photo on the site and I should check it out. I thanked her for the information and told her I already knew what the site said … for I was the lady that wrote the post. That’s one smart women checking these sites for what these guys are all about.
Gave me a chuckle how other decent women can be … as they tip off women. That’s my kind of lady friend!
Peace.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:59am
ErinBrock says:
Hi Wini…..good to see you around…..and it sounds as if you are moving on down the road!
Nice that others feel the need to ‘inform’ huh…..I think it’s all too necessary….unfortunately, some women think they can be the ones to change em……
NEVER!
Take good care and stick around huh!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:46am
Wini says:
Hi Erin, I never thought about changing anyone at any time in my life. I would just break up or divorce them.
I knew about these folks due to the first guy I dated after my marriage ended. He turned into being my 1st roller coaster ride. It was at that time (28 y.o.) that I read up on the subject of narcissism. As I read the books on anti-social personalities … is when I realized that many of my co-workers and bosses had the same condition. I could now comprehend the craziness I was seeing/dealing with daily while going into work.
My Ex played the nice guy, decent family man and victim. His Ex-wife refused to talk with me … so I was left with his analogy of how his marriage was. I bought it hook, line and sinker due to working with so many women like he described his EX wife to be. I almost collapsed when I found out that he too was one. My legs were actually buckling under my weight after my sister and friends made me grab all the paperwork he left behind. While putting the paperwork in chronological order … was when I realized that everything he told me was a lie. I was viewing paperwork proving TRUTH versus his fiction. I couldn’t believe it. I wanted to walk off a cliff. I got played by my bosses and my EX at the same time and didn’t even know he had anything to do with what was happening to me. I was so busy focusing on what my bosses did every day, never once did I have the luxury to have free time to even think derogatory thoughts about my EX. I believed everything he said, that it was he and I … that he was standing by my side. Talk about a double whammy!!!! (ouch).
I know one thing, my situation would never have been so extreme if I wasn’t sidetracked for 6 years by my bosses. NO WAY. I already knew what these types of creatures were all about. If I had the luxury to not be burdened with my bosses antics, no way would my EX have gotten away with the foreclosure, or my just lending him money without my checking facts. I didn’t have the time nor the energy to do regular checking of my life and details. I was exhausted every day for 6 years and had to let mundane things go … because my bosses overloaded me with new duties every week. I was overloaded … so to not collapse, I let go everything but the basics sit on a shelf. In hindsight, they knew exactly what they were doing. I still think my EX was a ringer for them. That’s why no one picks him up.
Bottom line, I couldn’t believe my luck that a guy understood this subject matter about anti-socials. We talked about my bosses and all their cronies and what they did to me daily. I’m shaking my head now. He must have thought (actually he did) hit the lottery with me. How convenient that psychos are destroying my career and my total focus was on them. Never thinking or having the time to look cross eyed at my EX. How convenient. I was such easy pickings for all of them. That’s why I’m appalled that the court doesn’t open up my case again and bring all the players that took me down. That includes the 2 attorneys I hired. They all protect each other. I’m sure my situation would bring down some pretty big fishes!
Good night … or should I say good morning. I’m logging off now.
Peace.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:25am
skylar says:
Erin, thanks for writing about your battles in court.
All the stuff you’ve written above and in your previous posts is helpful because you are so fluent in P-speak. So few of us know the language. We think they’re speaking English! LOL!
P-speak contains all the clues to understanding the P-mind and preparing yourself for the ultimate battle with the P.
What?
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 8:53am
witsend says:
G Morning everyone. I did a little research on the place that was recomended for counseling for my son. Not much info was avail. Looks like it is for low income familys and run by a ministry group. And they offer general sevices. Family, couples, and individual services.
Next week is a busy week for me. I am doing a show over the weekend and then another the following weekend. This is it, for shows for me, until spring. Whatever money I make has to get me through winter. (I live pretty frugal in the winter) In this economy its a rather unsettling proposition. Needless to say I need to fine tune what inventory I am bringing, how to display it, price it, and promote it, so the potential customer will feel they can’t live without it! I have alot of money in this inventory and so my week is going to be filled with the DETAILS and preperation of presenting my merchandise so that it sells itself.
Also pressing for me though next week, is the appointment I have with the counselor. I do not have expectations that my son will even agree to go. I have also decided that I will use this resource for myself if he does not. Because it is affordable.
The police officer is expecting that he will present this option to my son and that he will take it.
I am prepared to make copies of school records and all the “factual” evidence that school records would provide to show how he has sabatoged himself in school.
Also that I did file for incorrigable with courts ect.
However I would like to use this hour that I will have with her to really present her with the real problems I see with my son. And this is where I fall short. It is so hard to articulate, especially w/o getting emotional. Things with him have escalated over a short period of time and I have such a problem organizing my thoughts, putting into words, and FOCUSING on what is important to present to this counselor, in a short period of time. (initial session)
I have a hard time putting into words the tangled mess of daily living with a disordered individual. Words to define what “it is” seem to escape me when I REALLY need them.
I know this from my experience to try and explain to my closest friends what I am going through.
Any suggestions?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:18am
Rosa says:
Witsend:
You articulate and express yourself BRILLIANTLY on this blog.
And, I believe you will be able to effectively express your experiences with your son to the new counselor, as well.
You will be fine.
And, if the policeman thinks he can convince your son to go to this new counselor, then this cop is a Godsend, as well.
At least as far as I am concerned, he is.
I really believe your son needs a strong male figure in his life, especially since his father is not here.
It seems like this cop is sort of doing that.
You have made it this far, Witsend.
As someone reminded me recently, “God did not bring us here to fail.”
You will make it through this.
One way or another.
I will be thinking of you & your son.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 10:47am
skylar says:
morning witsend,
I would suggest, (as I always do) that you buy the book,
“Why is it always about you” by sandy hotchkiss and give it to the counselor long before your appointment.
The book explains narcissism so perfectly. why should we struggle with words when there are more educated and eloquent people who have already done it for us?
You might also explain to the counselor, our theory about their stories and how they use stories to create new realities in thier minds which then act as reinforcement, impetus, and justification for their behavior.
I posted an example in my response to IC:
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ment-54021
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 11:07am
witsend says:
Skylar, Rosa,
I can articulate better what actually is going on better in writting format than speaking to someone. Because it allows me to reread what I have said and allows me thinking time to better express what I am trying to say.
When I am trying to “tell” someone, I get lost…..My quest for outside “help” in this situation has never come easy. It always seemed to be an uphill battle. That required alot of time and effort.
Each time I did have opportunity, I seemed to not be able to “get the job done” with words.
Would it be better to possibly write everything down and then just “read” what I want to say? That would eliminate some of the emotions and frustration….
I am not sure if I could get the book in time. My appointment is Wed.
If I did go equiped with the book that would be great, but I also want her to understand to some extent the personal content of this situation.
The hatred he has for me for one. This is hard to measure in words.
However if there is only one thing that I am able to get accross to this woman. THIS is the ONE thing I want her to understand. I don’t want her to underestimate this fact, because I am unable to find the proper words.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:25pm
shabbychic says:
witsend, writing it down is exactly what I would do, I even will write a little list with maybe 3 items on it when I go to my regular doctor because half the time I forget what I wanted to ask about. You could make an “outline” so you don’t feel like you are just reading to her, or just read to her if you want!! Your writing is wonderful!!
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:37pm
banana says:
OFF TOPIC,
Would you mind telling me how you would take this is a good friend of your’s wrote it?
______,
You and I have been friends for 5 years.
I meant what I said when I said you have nothing to do with the situation which arose between co-worker/acquaintance and I.
Had you not loaned us the twin bed, you would not have been involved.
I would like for you and I to leave that situation out of our relationship and restore the fun and loving nature we once treated one another with.
However, if you are unable to separate your concern for coworker/acquaintance from your interest in maintaining a healthy relationship with me, all I ask is that you respectfully inform me of your decision, and I, in turn will respect your wishes.
Sincerely,
your friend
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:50pm
witsend says:
Thanks Shabbychick. I do this at regualr doctor appointments as well.
I guess in this situation I feel I have so much to say, a little time to say it, and so it seems important to me to say it well.
I don’t want to necessarily be “scripted”, however I know myself well and I will have problems without paper…..
To much emotions involved for me to stay clear headed and focused.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:52pm
amber says:
I’m seeing a couselor next Wednesday and I love the idea of writing things down. I’m going to do that before I go. I don’t want to forget anything and I want to make sure that I express my feelings clearly. Over the last few weeks, being able to write everything out has been so theraputic for me. Somehow it makes everything more concrete and real. The only thing I’m worried about, is that the counselor won’t know much about S. I’m going to a school counselor because it’s free, and I don’t have health insurance to cover the cost of seeing one. But I thought I’d give it a shot, jus to help sort out some of what I’m going through. Hopefully she knows a little about S.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 12:53pm
witsend says:
amber,
I am also thinking that the counselor I will be speaking with will have little back ground, (if any) dealing with personality disorders.
Perhaps this is why I am wanting to at least be able to express myself well and be crystal clear of what I have to say.
On this forum people have been in all kinds of situations with this disorder on a personal level. So it isn’t difficult to feel understood when you come here.
However I have found that when discussing this with the general population, (friends, family and even counselors) many times they do not “get it”.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:02pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
I also have a hard time TELLING.
How do you put something like this into words, right?
I know.
I guess I would focus on the one point you want to get across to this counselor, and work around that.
Form a beginning, middle, and an end (conclusion).
And support your point with examples.
Give her any relevant family history, like traumatic childhood events, timelines, etc.
If I were in your shoes, I think I might also start out the session by asking this counselor how much she knows about personality disorders & addiction.
I would find some information online, print it off, and take it with me to the session…..just in case she does not know very much about these subjects.
Sometimes, policemen work closely with counselors and social workers.
Maybe the policeman has some suggestions about this????
I don’t know. I am just throwing ideas out there.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:03pm
witsend says:
Rosa,
I am wanting ideas! So throw away at me….
Yes, I do want to include background of family history. Of course she would need to know about the suicide, my sons trama at being there, and his fathers addictions. My history alcoholic upbringing ect.
I guess that is it in a nutshell…..I want to include anything that might be important information and not take up alot of time with just “stuff”.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:09pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
You were also dealing with a counselor at your son’s school, weren’t you?
Would it be beneficial for this new counselor to have a phone conversation with the school counselor/teachers??
Would this help the new counselor get a grasp on your son’s behavior, not only with you but with the school counselor as well?
I don’t know. That would have to be your call.
If the school counselor was not very effective, it may be a waste of time.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:20pm
skylar says:
Witsend,
in a way, all the personal stuff is just stuff.
Your son and my exP have the same personality but 2 completely different historys. It’s like the flu, once you caught it, it doesn’t really matter how. Of course, she will want a history and she will incorporate it into her diagnosis, but in the end it will just add details to the core personality disorder.
I hope that you can get the book at the library. look up your local library online and do a search and have it held if you can. They also have a connection to WorldCat, which includes all the libraries’ databases in your area.
She will be completely helpless unless she understands cluster B personality disorders and the spectrum of narcissism.
I’ll look for some links of webpages you might be able to print out to help.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:21pm
amber says:
Wit..you’re so right. Trying to discuss this with some of my friends and even my sister..I may as well be talking to a brick wall. All they can say is, “just don’t talk to him.” “It’s you’re own fault.” They just don’t have a clue. And that’s what lead me here!! I was at the end of my rope. I knew I had to find people that UNDERSTOOD ME. And I can’t tell you how amazing it is to talk to people that KNOW! So I do have my reservations about the counselor I’m going to see. I don’t want to spend the time teacher her about the S personality disorder. We’ll see how it goes.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:21pm
witsend says:
skylar,
I did order the book at amozon. I just don’t know for sure if it will arrive on time. But some printo out of info would be good.
I don’t have a working printer so I will go to the library to print out the school info from edline and I can print off other stuff at the same time.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:26pm
witsend says:
rosa,
the school counselor has been not been very effective, however I would definately sign release forms for her to talk with them if she desired. This wouldn’t be a problem for me.
He is going to be facing in a matter of weeks being dismissed from school anyways. As they gave him a time limit to step to the plate. And he has not done so yet.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:31pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
You mentioned once that the one thing your son is still responsible about is his job.
He likes the money he earns from his job, like most teenagers.
Is this still the case??
What is his boss like at this job? Have you ever met him?
Does he have any influence over your son?
Can he provide any insights to these counselors??
I would exhaust every avenue, and get as many people involved (who may be able to help) as possible.
In Dr. Leedom’s book, I read that sometimes it takes more than one adult to get through to a troubled teenager.
Not to give false hope, but I also read that it is still possible for your son to grow out of this.
He’s only 16, going on 17.
There’s still time, but the window is closing.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 1:35pm
witsend says:
Rosa,
He worships money. Money = power in his eyes. He is not necessarily responsible at work. He goes to work because of his worship of money. The one and ONLY reason he was able to maintain his job for 2 summers in a row is because he works with young people. (just a few years older than himself)
He has done many things that he has no business doing at work. Gotten away with it because of the lack of adults/bosses present during his shift. Long story about the job…..I won’t get into it.
Trust me the job does not equal responsibility on his part.
His boss doesn’t know him well but seems to like him. His boss also isn’t someone who knows him well enough to be much help.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:00pm
Rosa says:
Witsend:
OK, so he loves money. That gets his attention.
That’s something I would tell the counselor on Wednesday.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:23pm
OxDrover says:
Banana,
I’d have to have more info on what the “situation” was—-sounds like “drama” but not enough info for me to really tell what she is getting at. Did she abuse someone? Did they abuse her? Is any of this your problem? If so, what part?
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 2:59pm
skylar says:
Witsend,
here’s an article that mentions some drug treatments for psychopaths including SSRI and thyroid meds.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.co.....geNumber=1
I have taken thyroid medications and can attest that they certainly reduce anxiety. I was about to lose my driver’s license from getting so many tickets for speeding before I began taking the thyroid medications. When I took the Levoxyl (brand name for synthetic thyroxin) I was able to drive without feeling like I needed to hurry all the time. It takes the edge off. After I quit, well, I still speed sometimes, but I’m ABLE to remember what it’s like not to be in a hurry and can calm myself. I realize that my compulsion to speed is caused by too much adrenalin and can choose not to. Thyroxin helps to balance the adrenalin, they seem to oppose each other. Maybe your boy needs to have his thyroid levels checked… I bet they are low.
BTW, I wasn’t prescribed thyroid meds for speeding it just happened to work for that too. My problem was chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia pain, which it also helped. Now that I’m no longer being poisoned by my xP, I don’t bother to take the med because I’m not tired and have no pain.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 3:03pm
skylar says:
To get your levels checked you need to go to a specialist in thyroid problems because this field is very controversial and there are special ways to check for subclinical low-levels. In ohter words, not everyone’s thyroid will show low levels without a TSH challenge test.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 3:06pm
skylar says:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/cli.....0Disorders
witsend here is another link with very well described traits of cluster B’s. You could copy and paste it in MSWord and add examples of your son’s behavior to each trait description.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 3:19pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
As a retired medical professional who is very familiar with thyroid medication and how and why and under what circumstances it is given for, it is ONLY rx’d for low thyroid hormone, which can cause anxiety etc. BUT, and this is a BIG one, how you “feel” does not necessarily relate to your thyroid levels.
I think it would be wiser if you were not recommending or not recommending (as the case may be) prescriptions by physicians that are determined by lab values rather just “how do you feel.”
If you want to not get your values checked and not take the medicine, you have that right as it is your body. I personally think it is an UNwise decision, as the thyroid is a very very important hormone to the body, but it is your right. Advising others on these medical things I think is quite out of your line of expertise though, and i would not want someone to follow your “medical advice” and end up suffering consequences for it.
As far as medication treatment for Ps, there are several good articles written here by Dr. Leedom (M.D.) that you might look back on it (no sense in me repeating it here) about the lack of effectiveness for medication for Ps. Also Witsend has repeated that her son REFUSES to take any kind of medication and there is no way to force him. Even if there was an effective treatmednt (he is also ADHD she said) for which there is a treatment, as long as he refuses, the point is moot.
I don’;t mean to come down on you about the medicaton, but giving medical advise is pretty risky even for a professional and for most people, I recommend that they see their PHYSICIAN for any symptoms from depression to Fibro, chronic fatigue or any other thing. some of these things can be mimiced by things like CANCER and other things so they need a good check up. Stress does some nasty things to us, like pain, depression etc. but there can ALSO be thyroid involved, or any of a bunch of things from heart conditions on up. (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 3:36pm
skylar says:
Oxy, I guess I wasn’t clear. I’ll try again
I recommended that a thyroid specialist (an endocronologist whose specialty is thyroid disease) should evaluate her son.
Don’t really understand your second paragraph but I’m not recommending anything other than an evaluation BY A SPECIALIST PHYSICIAN and an Rx based on THEIR evaluation. I guarantee you and my physician will guarantee you that low thyroid VERY MUCH AFFECTS HOW YOU FEEL. It contributes to depression and anxiety and the resulting behaviors of those mental states. I’ve been off and on the meds for the last 10 years, and I’ve tried different dosages from 30mg to 120mg of T4. I’ve even dropped the T4 and just used T3 like the body builders do. (not recommended).
I do experiment and my doctor encouraged me to do so. He said, “you need to keep track of how YOU feel in response to different dosages, everyone is different.” I no longer take the meds because I just don’t get enough benefit to justify the costs of appts, tests and meds. But all doctors will tell you once you start you will take it for life.
The thyroid tests are varied. I used to have it all memorized, but suffice it to say that your Family doctor will only test your T4 levels and maybe T3, but an endocronologist will do a special test which challenges with TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone).
TSH is a the hormone which signals your thyroid to release T4. So, although my T4 was only slightly low, the challenge test (an injection of TSH) showed that my thyroid was barely releasing any T4 in response to that challenge.
Believe me Oxy, before I spent all my time here, researching N/P/S’s, I used to spend all my time on the thyroid boards, the FMS/CFS boards, and a myriad of other boards trying to figure out why I was sick all the time. I now understand that I was being poisoned, but until then, I was managing my symptoms with thyroid meds and various suppements which helped the mitochondrial efficiency of my cells: magnesium, cq10, carnitine, HMB.
I did research and then used trial and error over the last 20 years to finally learn to manage the most horrendous, burning muscle pain. Pain that, if I had known it would last as long as it did, I would have preferred death. Only my optomism kept me alive.
As it turned out a lawyer, recommended I see this doctor because he said my personality reminded him of his niece who suffered from low thyroid and she got better. My personality was one of extreme anxiety but I wasn’t even aware of it until it was managed by the medication.
Once I started using the t4 and t3 (levoxy and cytomel), I became much calmer and drove slower. Unfortunately, I gained 30 lbs. It made me love food, which normally and can take it or leave it, food just fills a hole in my gut. My weight gain is actually the opposite reaction to thyroid meds since most low thyroid people are sluggish and fat, but I was anxious and skinny and hyper from too much adrenalin. I became sluggish and fat on the meds. The reason I took them is because the tests showed that I needed them and because they relieved my body pain and slowed my driving. Other than that I’m an adrenalin junkie, so if I’m not in pain I’d rather not take them. If I were to get pregnant, I would take them because low thyroid in the mother is associated with mental retardation in their children.
I think, somehow the two hormones oppose each other or else one will take up the slack when the other is low, I’m not sure.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 4:19pm
skylar says:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
here’s an excellent link witsend, you can print this out for your therapist to read or email it. It’s very concise.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 5:54pm
witsend says:
skylar,
Thanks for the links. I will try to bring something with me pertaining to N tendancys, the book or, printed information from the internet. SOMETHING.
I appreciate your time. I have often thought of different medical conditions that could also be adding to the problems with my son. I know of no way right now to get my son to comply with even going to a doctor let alone taking test of any kind. I don’t know if I can emphasise this enough. Unless it’s his idea he wouldn’t go.
Today was a bad day. Right the minute school was over….There is defiantely an underlying tension in the house…..It has been growing since the day the cops came here.
To add to that tension, the dog got sick (he is doing better on the meds) and I have to be gone 2 days next weekend for the show and 2 days the next weekend after that. So I’m sure I am stressed about that.
I have been trying to just lay low. Trying to avoid confrontation, trying to just get through each day. Today that didn’t happen. First he was shitty to me right after school. Disrespectful. I kind of let that go…….It happens alot.
Then he told me he needed to go to the bank to get some money out for shoes and a skateboard, because he was going to order them online with my credit card….(and give me the money)
Well I explained to him that my payment was just made and until that payment cleared he was going to have to wait to use my card….
That turned into a train wreck. Because evidentaly he didn’t hear a word I said. And I repeated the card wasn’t going to be used until the payment cleared when he came downstairs ready to order the stuff.
Pretty soon he was arguing with me about credit cards and blah, blah blah…..How he knew all about credit cards cause they covered it in class last year….(a class he flunked) And now he’s projecting all his crap onto me….And of course then the conversation is going everywhere and nowhere….So FAR REMOVED from where it began.
And of course by this time I had just HAD IT. I guess I really have had about all I can take from him. So I asked him what he would do if he needed a skateboard & skateboard shoes WHEN he turns 17 in a few weeks FROM NOW and isn’t living here anymore. Whos credit card is he going to USE THEN to order online? How is he going to deal with these things? Maybe it is time for him to think about this now?? Trying to include LOGIC back into the conversation.
Then the conversation turned into what a terrible parent I am……
And the train wreck continued…….
It REALLY is ALL about THEIR perception of things. Their LIES all tangled up into their world that they reside in….
He brought up some stuff that is totaly NON REALITY. About how in his freshman year and his sophmore year at school he flunked his classes not because of anything HE DID but because the teachers were flunking him on purpose. This year he has decided to flunk on his own….
The reason he doesn’t have internet service is because I am a terrible parent. It has nothing to do with the fact that he “lost it “when he refused to take responsibility at school. He is entitled to this and doesn’t have to earn anything. Its all about the terrible and wicked parent that I am. I AM the reason he doesn’t have internet service….NOT a mention of his actually being able to easily CHANGE that by passing anything in school. His teachers are all crazy, I am crazy….
HELL we are ALL NUTS. And the entire time he looked at me with the intimidating stare.
He actually broke down and cried once during this for a moment….I have not seen this before.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:22pm
witsend says:
skylar,
that last link you sent was the best to describe him. OMG, I can’t find anything on there that doesn’t define what I see, I don’t think….
I will have to go back and reread.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:26pm
skylar says:
OMG. witsend, he cried?
that almost makes me cry. God I wish I could give you both hugs right now. I wish it so much.
Any chance you could go to his room and hug him without him beating you up?
Don’t change your resolve and determination. Know that at any time he could turn into a monster. but is it possible for you to show him some kind of tenderness? Something that could change the way you communicate with each other?
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:32pm
skylar says:
BTW, I got that link by posting on a chat forum just to see what came up! Lots of people responded with information about their own experiences. I referred some to here.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:34pm
witsend says:
skylar,
I moved me to. But that is the PROBLEM. Here I am feeling like a complete piece of SHIT. Like shit under someone shoes.
Because he cried for a few seconds. But before and after the tears he said some terrible stuff to me…
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:35pm
Matt says:
witsend:
I don’t mean to sound like a hard-ass here, but I wouldn’t fall for the tears. S was a master of turning on the waterworks when it suited him. I always fell for it. And then came the last time he tried it. I remember watching all this sturm-und-drang. All I can remember thinking as I watched the performance was “there’s nothing going on below the surface. Absolutely nothing.” It was chilling. And then, he suddenly turned it off like flicking a light switch.
So, hard-ass I may be, but with my feet on the ground and my eyes on my checkbook, I have concluded that they don’t shed a single tear unless they think there’s something in it for them.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 6:59pm
skylar says:
yeah, its a coin toss with the odd being in favor of a con job.
you’re absolutely right Matt. I’ve seen it too. But if it’s real, look at the pay off and realize too that he is still young.
Odds are 90% it’s fake.
But witsend, you need to learn to feel nothing. You shouldn’t feel like a piece of shit because he cries. You did nothing wrong. KNOW THAT, OWN THAT. Don’t let him use your emotions against you. You must show no anger or frustration or anything other than love and firmness in discipline. Let the crap he flings roll off of you. You need to look at this as if it is your job to do your best job raising this kid and then wash your hands. If that means giving him a hug when he cries (as long as he isn’t holding a knife), hug him, but don’t change your resolve to remain stoic.
I know, it’s easier to say than to do and your odds aren’t that great…
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:22pm
witsend says:
Matt,
I get what your saying….The intelect gets it.
The intelect even gets the whole your a terrible parent thing…I know in my heart I am not a terrible parent.
But even his perception that I am a terrible parent hurts.
BECAUSE I believe he does believe this to be true. It is a big part of the fantasy world that he lives in. He also believes he doesn’t need an education because he is going to make it in life w/o an education.
If he is turning on the tears when he is telling others his “story” of his terrible mother at home….I can tell you, they are going to fall for it to….Because I almost did….And I’m the “terrible” mother.
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Friday, 6 November 2009 @ 7:51pm
Annie says:
Hello Steve,
This is an excellent article.
In one of my first posts on LF I was “complaining” that I thought both Hare & Cleckly’s definitions were missing “something”. Your article comes closer than any other I’ve read to describing the characteristics of the psychopaths/sociopaths I have repeatedly encountered in my life:
– women like my mother who was very much like Rosa’s sister-in-law (publicly a medical professional, a natural leader, congenial, largely respected and liked/admired, privately a cunning and sadistic abuser and terrorizer);
– the successful corporate types I encountered in both the financial services and medical technology industries (both the bullies/terrorizers/powercrazed, and the slick/smooth operators who lead their divisions into ruin and disaster before jumping ship).
Hare concentrated on violent male convicted offenders because that’s where he first encountered psychopaths, and had the means and opportunity to study them. It was in this environment he developed the PCL (-R). But I’ve always felt that his tool measures the characteristics of that particular type of psychopath (violent incarcerated, perhaps not-so-bright male), but largely leaves out most of the other types you’ve mentioned in your article, specifically the type who are cunning, far-sighted and thoughtful – not impetuous unless it suits their purpose. And especially those who are sadistic. He mentions those characteristics in his book, but doesn’t measure them in his tool.
More to the point, I was most impressed with your substitution of the term “compassion” in place of “empathy”. Stroke of brilliance that, in my opinion. You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head.
!!Geek alert here!!!
I’m a bit of a word geek – forever looking up the etymology of words if I’m not certain of their meaning. “Empathy” is a very difficult and complex word, only recently introduced into the English language (1909) as a direct translation of a German word used to describe a concept in art appreciation: “Einfühlung” (in feeling) – a subject/object relationship where the subject attributes an emotional state to an object – a work of art. Its current usage almost inverts its original meaning – which was much closer in meaning to the way you mentioned in your article:
“You will sometimes hear people say about sociopaths that, rather than lacking empathy, they actually use their empathy exploitively”
For any fellow geeks in the crowd, I’ve included some references:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=empathy
http://www.newcriterion.com/po.....pathy-5885
http://www.culturalgadfly.com/?p=1600
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 10:17pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks Annie for those links, particularly the cultural gadfly one.
I did a search to try to pin down the meaning of empathy a few months ago. I’d been using the word in my writing, and suddenly started wondering if I had the differences between sympathy and empathy right. Well, that was a search I wished I’d never started. Both words seem to be weighted down by so many opinions and so little objective agreement that I’m came away knowing less than when I started.
But in my own mind, sympathy is when I stand outside of another person’s experience, but feel for them. Like I’m happy for someone who wins a prize. Or I want to comfort someone who is hurt. To me, sympathy also risks edging into the territory of sentimentality or cheap emotion without a lot of subtlety. But it can be important, as a bonding element, when someone around us in need.
Empathy on the other hand is getting right into another person’s experience. I have a habit, when I listen to classic music of imagining I’m writing it, so that I understand the composer’s intention as much as I can. Likewise in looking at visual art. To me, empathy is enriching, because it introduces us to realities that may not be common to us. When I was living with the sociopath, one of the reasons I learned so much from him was that I deliberately tried to put myself into his experience of life. (Something I did at an entirely different level that the place where I was suffering because of his inability to connect emotionally.)
Because empathy is such an opening experience, I could feel that it sometimes made me vulnerable. ‘ve learned to deliberately shut down my empathetic inclinations when I feel internal alerts that I’m dealing with someone who is predatory or simply draining. It’s hard to do. It feels like I’m working with half my brain shut off, and it gives me great motivation to get away from these people ASAP.
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Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 11:46pm
Annie says:
Hello Kathleen (and Steve, and well, everyone here on LF!),
!!! Word geek alert!!!
I’m glad that you found the links interesting. I hear you about the confusion and wishing you’d never started looking! I think that sympathy/empathy are two words which have largely moved away from their origins and where my etymological habit just added to the confusion.
I think the way you’ve described them is in line with the most widely accepted common usage, and the way I understood them before I started digging, but appears to be almost ‘flipped’ from the way they were used years prior.
Funny thing about the English language – with the thousands of words at our disposal, often the most important and resonant concepts of human interaction are poorly served by language. Like “love”. So very many types of “love” – parent/child, sibling/sibling, friends, lovers, partners (e.g. cops, paramedics, etc…), close relations, owners/pets – and yet only one word to cover so many different things.
Years ago a friend of ours often used the question “What is the difference between sympathy and empathy?” in interviews. This is what started my etymological digging. So when I first encountered Hare’s work on psychopathy my radar went up when I saw the word empathy – and I always felt uncomfortable with it.
I’ve read several blogs/articles on empathy/sympathy (using meaning closer to the etymological roots) that assert that sympathy has more to do with feeling “with” another (specifically wanting to soothe and take away the sufferers pain), and empathy has more to do with “understanding” another’s emotion – without judgement. I’ve also heard the “tuning fork” analogy used here (more about that later.) I think this version/definition, regardless of its accuracy, comes closer to what may be going on with psychopaths/sociopaths – in my experience they are finely tuned to pick up others emotions – and here Steve’s reference to “lack of compassion” is most relevant. I believe they are finely tuned to pick up on and understand other’s emotions but they don’t interpret them the way others do. Instead of feeling that the other person is “like me”, they see the sufferer as “other” and a target.
!!! End of word Geek alert !!!
Re: the tuning fork analogy: We have two cats that we love to pieces, that have very different personalities. When my husband or I are feeling distress one of them (the most affectionate one) literally picks up and ‘vibrates’ our emotions back – he’ll start howling in the most discomfiting way and we have to comfort him! The other cat who is more aloof will try to comfort us! She’ll crawl into our laps and refuse to budge, and will purr loud enough to wake the dead. She’ll also come up and put her paw on our shoulder – just like a human would do!
This tuning fork analogy feels very familiar to me: my mother could pick up and amplify the smallest distress vibrations. Except that, unlike our cat who feels distress when we feel distress, my mother would feel joy and satisfaction at another’s distress. But like our cat, or a tuning fork, my mother couldn’t control it or stop herself. My mother would be drawn to distress like a shark is drawn to blood in the water. The most telling sign would be the subtle cold “smile” which she tried to but could never quite hide, which I now know from reading books on crime detection is a flexing of the “biting” muscles around one’s mouth. Using the word “empathy” to describe this is very much out of place with its current usage. But I feel that we need a word or term to describe it nonetheless.
Back to Kathleen’s post: I’m fascinated by what you wrote about empathy making you more vulnerable, and being able to turn it off around predators. You seem to have developed both a built-in warning system, and a method of self-defence. I would love to hear more if you’d care to elaborate. You may have given me a clue to why I seem to have so little detection ability – almost the polar opposite of my mother, even though I’m highly intuitive and very affectionate with people I trust. I’m starting to wonder if I may have unconsciously turned mine off as a child as a similar defence mechanism. I’ll have to think more about that… I used to have 0 radar for many predators (particularly types other than the ones I’d been exposed to as a child), and even now I have to intellectually work my way through situational cues to ’see’ them. Unfortunately since I’ve been able to develop my detection skills and finally see them, I’ve ended up being more frightened and becoming almost house-bound, because I know that seeing them (if they know that you see them) makes you much more vulnerable.
I need a defence system to go along with my newly acquired predator radar! I’ve never felt comfortable with the advice given by Hare, Babiak, Stout, etc… that the only defence is to run away. That just isn’t possible in so many circumstances. I think we need a psychopath/sociopath self-defence course – a version based on women’s self-defence training courses: awareness, detection, avoidance, deterance – based on predator type.
I’ve been learning a lot from Erin B’s posts re: her court case. Perhaps she and Matt (or Steve, or Donna, or Oxdrover, …) might consider putting together a Sociopath self-defence training manual…?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Annie,
I’m also a bit of a WORD GEEK! The one that was most recent for me was WRATH vs. ANGER. The thing that got me to thinking about these two was a minister who told me (wrongly I believe) that “anger” is a SIN!
I didn’t go back to this minister (actually I think he is an N) and confront him, but settled the question myself to my own satisfaction. Jesus said “be ye angry and sin not.” Christ himself was angry, so I don’t figure that is a sin.
Jesus also said “don’t let the sun go down upon your WRATH”
Having thought that wrath=anger most of my life, I looked up WRATH and found that anger is only one component of it, it is a vengeful hateful bitterness that you nurse for a “long period” of time. It doesn’t hurt the person you are justifiably angry at for what they did, but it HURTS YOU. As the article here about when does “bitterness become a disorder” the WRATFUL feelings that some of us (me included) have nurtured and fed for long periods of time inhibit our ability to heal ourselves by focusing on the injustice the others have done. It literally poisons us.
I get a daily e mail from Dr. Goodword with a study of a word and this is quite interesting; where they come from and the expanded meanings. It is interesting too in that some of the words that I commonly use or hear I didn’t really have the exact meaning correct.
My egg donor who used to be an English teacher and I used to debate the meanings of various words, and my late husband and I did. It is really quite interesting when you study them in depth. so I don’t think you are way off by liking to know the meanings of different words. the more of a language we know, the better we are able to express ourselves. Unfortunately, the person we are expressing ourselves to also has to understand the meanings of those words.
You are so right about the word “love” in English, it can mean so many different things, I think in the end, it sometimes means NOTHING. I do not fluently speak any other language, but I ahve been exposed to many other languages and studied some of the characteristics of them, how they have words to convey meanings that English doesn’t have. Or even SOUNDS that the English trained ear cannot “hear” (like the clicks of the Bantu language and some sounds in Arabic for example, I am sure there are others.) Our language shapes our thinking in so many ways, without language we would not be much above any other animal’s ability to think.
Thank you for your contrabutions to our discussion. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 12:49pm
Annie says:
Oxy!
OK if I say I “love” you for that post? Two quotes I thought you might like:
“The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them; there ought to be as many for love.”
“War is what happens when language fails.”
– Margaret Atwood
(((hugs back))))
Annie
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:32pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Annie,
Yes, you can say you “love” me for any reason! (I’m a push over for sweet words! Else I wouldn’t be here! LOL ROTFLMAO)
I had heard the Eskimo thing but it was like 200 words or something like that, but same thought.
When I was a kid I spent time in South Africa and other places filming wild life. I was interested in the Bantu language. they only had words for 1, 2, 3 and anything above 3 was “many” but they had a word for “a black cow with one white spot on her left back leg” and each man could go into his herd of say 100 cows and know that one was missing and what the ONE word was that would describe her. I raise cattle myself and I hve to count them on my fingers and then try to figure out which one is missing. LOL Cows are their “currency” and it is like each one has a “serial number” and one word for that number. Amazing! to me. also they have clicks in their language which we can’t even “hear” I would have the natives speak a word over and over that had clicks and I would try to imitate it and I just couldn’t do it, I couldnt’ hear it. But in France I could have someone say a word and I could repeat it pretty well. The natives laughed (nicely) at my attempts to learn their language but I think it pleased them for me to try. An American child (age 4 ) was there at the same time we were and she was almost fluent by age 4 (she had been there a year or so) and could easily immitate the clicks in very complex multi-sylable words.
I had a friend who was Arabic and he used to try to teach me some words and he was amazed that I COULD hear some of the sounds and reproduce them, as he said most English speakers couldn’t. I did learn rudimentary Spanish when I worked at a hospital on the Mexican border and from the time we spent in South america and Central America, but probably about as much as a very young child would be able to say. I have forgotten most of it now though, except for the medical terms for “take a deep breath” or “roll over” and “where does it hurt?” I envy people who are bi or tri lingual. I wish I was.
Actually I am sort of bi-lingual, I speak both English and “Red NEck” LOL
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:58pm
Annie says:
Oxy,
I don’t mean to take this thread so far away from Steve’s original topic, but I do love stuff like this. For me it’s like meditation – it takes me far outside myself and lets me re-examine life from an entirely different perspective – sets my curiosity in motion. Does farmer A in village/tribe X use the same word for that type of cow as farmer B in village/tribe Y? My understanding is we use base 10 math because it was built on the use of our 10 digits for counting. So automatically I wonder – why does Bantu stop at 3? And how can you keep track of over 100 cows if both “4 cows”, and “104 cows”, are counted as “many”? What does that mean in terms of their understanding of the world?
Over the last year or so we’ve been hearing a lot about brain plasticity in the media here. One of the “findings” is that people from different cultures literally have different brains – that the language you use in childhood influences how neural networks are laid out. And that being bi or tri-lingual gives you strong protection against dementia in old age. (Anyone see the episode of “Boston Legal” where William Shatner is trying to learn a new language to ward off the effects of “mad cow”?)
So it makes me wonder – what about psychopaths/sociopaths/cluster B’s in other cultures/languages? Are they more like each other across cultures, and less like their respective cultural counterparts? Or are the cultural/language/brain differences (if that is indeed found to be true) the same for them – meaning that a P/S from culture/language A will have differences from a P/S raised in culture/language B?
Just as the concept for “many” may be different from culture to culture, does anyone know how the concept of Psychopathy/Sociopathy concurs or differs across cultures?
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:47pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Annie, that was really interesting about the tuning fork metaphor. And the story about your mother picking up the vibes but having a paradoxical reaction. picks up but reverses it.
You asked about what I wrote, regarding turning off empathy when I got an internal alert. I want to answer that, but first I want to talk about some second thoughts about what I wrote earlier.
I said that sympathy could skate dangerously close to sentimentalism. And that empathy could make me vulnerable. I wanted to change that. I think that sympathy can make me feel good about myself, like I’m a good person, and that makes me suspect that it’s possibly being generated by some embedded social rules. (Like the things we do not to feel guilty or ashamed.)
Empathy on the other hand doesn’t make me feel anything about me. It’s more an observational, learning thing. Even though imagining I’m in someone else’s reality has to be projection, or at least limited by my own internal capabilities to understand, it still places me in a new framework of circumstances and challenges. So it’s interesting, but I don’t perceive it as being about me — unlike sympathy.
So I said that empathy could make me vulnerable. I think that’s true only because I’m not thinking about me, when it happens. I’m wide open to the experience, and drinking in information. And I’m not paying attention in any self-defensive way at all. So if circumstances change, to be threatening in some way, I’m in an open, interested, non-judging mode, and my first inclination may be to accept unquestioningly information that should shift me to a more cautious mode.
Here’s an example. Suppose I’m at a gallery opening, and I’m doing my thing about imagining what was going on in the artist’s mind when the work was created. Or maybe, if I’m lucky, even get the artist in a conversation to explore thiis and he’s willing to talk about himself. And then some third party arrives and says, “Our friend the artist is lucky to have such a sensitive and interested audience for his work.”
I’m wide open and listening empathetically. That is, I’m diving into this guy’s head as well to understand what’s going on with him. And what do I find? Him looking at me and seeing me in the nice way he just said. Unlike the artist whose emotions and expressions are hanging all over the walls, and who has been kind enough to talk with me abou his process, I know nothing else about this man. And I’m in an unjudging, non-defensive mode. I have a kind of unthinking frisson of pleasure in me that I’ve attracted this nice attention.
So, stop the movie right there. What is wrong with this picture? What just happened? And why is it dangerous?
I can’t tell you how long it would take my alert system to sound an alarm in this situation, but it probably wouldn’t take too long. And that’s because of how I felt. From one moment when I was totally involved in exploring and learning outside myself, this man’s comment has suddenly changed my orientation to inside myself. His words got me to look at me.
However “nice” they may have seemed, they were an uninvited commentary or judgment on me. And I’ve gotten to the point when I can feel that kind of shift as an uncomfortable thing.
If we want to talk about the ways that sociopaths come on, I would say this is a classic test of vulnerability. How I respond is going to give him a red or green light. If I care about what he thinks about me, if I respond as though it matters, he’s gotten the first and probably the most important green light of his interaction with me. And it will probably be followed up with personal questions to determine what he can get out of the interaction and what obstacles (like a husband) he might have to deal with, all the while he’s testing what compliments or areas of interest work with me.
I’m saying this for people who are still interested in understanding how sociopaths work. I’m not. I’m interested in what’s going on with me and how I feel about it.
The faster I snap to the fact that I’m facing a boundary challenge, the less information I’ll give this guy. But even if get charmed and tipsy enough to, God help me, land up spending the night with him, anytime the alert system finally catches my attention is a good time.
If I catch it immediately, I can communicate on the spot that being told how good I am doesn’t feed any particular hunger I’m suffering from. (“You’re easily impressed.” or “Actually Mr. Artist is getting great reviews from everyone in the room.” or “You and Mr. Artist must have lots to talk about, and I have someone waiting.”)
If I catch it later, after he’s had an opportunity to dig into my history, promise to cure all my problems, tell me his sad stories, and my feelings are complicated by my embarrassment with myself for being so gullible, I can still stop playing. This is really important, and something it took me a while to grasp. Just because I was one way a minute ago and maybe for the last few weeks or months, it doesn’t mean I can’t be another way now and for the rest of time.
If I’m not embarrassed about being inconsistent — or as they would say, untrustworthy, rude, uncaring, betraying, or a cold-hearted bitch — I can decide I don’t want to be involved any more. I don’t want to hear anything this man has to say. I don’t want him touching me. I don’t want to understand him. And I want him out of my environment.
This is me paying attention to the internal alert system. And me deciding what I do and don’t want in my life. My alarms are going off. I don’t have to justify anything to myself. And certainly not to him, though if he thinks I’m a good score for some reason, he will probably try to use whatever he’s already learned about me to convince me that I do. Or that I’m being foolish or afraid of living life to the fullest or whatever else he can come up to make me keep looking at myself rather than him.
But that’s the kind of thing that these days — after using my experience with the sociopath as an opportunity to get to know myself a lot better and to get comfortable with who I am — just sets those alarms clanging harder. Not because I’m absolutely finished working on myself, but because it’s none of anyone else’s business. And anyone who tries to step into that realm uninvited — or maybe invited, but I don’t like how they use the privilege — gets the iron curtain dropped on them. Hard boundary.
Annie, I heard what you said about your alarm system making you afraid. And if you’ll forgive the personal comment, it sounds like you’re still in a relatively early stage of your healing. Even though you’ve developed some internal rules or recognition of cues, you’re still really in the shocky phase when you’re trying to understand what hit you. And not really understanding it, because these cues that may or may not really clarify who they are and what they do, and you don’t feel very confident about dealing with the threat.
Later in the healing process, this gets a little simpler. What they do is hurt you. But that’s not all. Because this isn’t just about them. It’s also about you. In fact, the part about you is much more important. The part about you is that you don’t like it. Not liking it is much more powerful than being afraid of it. Not that being afraid of it is an unreasonable reaction. But it doesn’t include any recognition of you as a person with choices. Even if that choice is simply about judging. About not liking what they do, not liking who they are because they do it, and not wanting it in your life.
Thinking this way makes a huge difference in your brain chemistry. It doesn’t mean you’re going to do anything crazy, like trying to beat them at their own game. It just means that you’re starting to look at things as though you are your own person, and not just a plaything of fate.
What I’m describing here is an entry into the angry stage. Someone else recently wrote about the angry stage as when we get mad at something they’ve done and dump on them. That not the phase, that’s just getting angry at an event. The angry phase is when we start understanding that they are the problem. Not what they did. Not whatever we can figure out about their motivation or their tragic histories or anything else we might want to figure out about why this occurred. It doesn’t matter why. It doesn’t matter what they feel or who they are. What matters is that they are a problem, and they are causing pain in your life. This is about you and your problem.
One of the reasons we have to go through trying to learn about them and understand them is to give ourselves permission to suspend empathy, manners and whatever else in standing in out way of judging them, blaming them, and then doing whatever it takes to get rid of them and make sure that we’re better protected in the future.
The angry phase is a phase. It’s something we need to go through, in order to get to the rest of the healing process. As you’ll hear from other people, we go through cycles of anger. And that’s largely because when we first allow ourselves to become angry, we haven’t really figured out what a really terrible problem they were. We need to respond to our first understandings to loosen up the mechanism. And then other memories rise, and we understand more about what total pains in the ass they were. Eventually we clear it all out, because we’re responded appropriately to everything (or the important high points), and in responding we’ve been figuring out that we’re worth more than that, and that we can ensure in the future that our defensive awareness and skills are much better.
In the case of our complimentary stranger from the art gallery, suppose I had slept with him and shared information about my work, only to find out that he was an executive at a competing firm who was applying for a job with my company that would make him my boss’s boss. And if I didn’t stay on his good side, that I might find myself out of a job and blackballed as well. (I’m trying to imagine a worst-case scenario.)
The difference between being focused on him and the threat he presents and being focused on not liking the way I feel is significant in terms of how I would react. If I were scared, I probably start trying to manage him and manipulate my work environment to try to build insurance policies against whatever I feared he’d do to me. If I just didn’t want to play this game, I’d probably march into the human resources department and inform them that this guy targeted me at a social event, pretended he was interested in me to acquire corporate information, and threatened to get me fired if I didn’t cooperate.
Both are risky. And both require some dishonesty on my part. But only one of them reflects what I really want. To get rid of him. And yes, I’m prepared to risk my job to do it, because I don’t want to feel like this.
Could I be wrong about him? Sure. But I don’t care. Does this make me sound like a sociopath. Yes, it does. No empathy, no regrets. Do I feel okay about doing it? That’s a good question, but just the fact that I’m in this position at all, when I wasn’t before he showed up, brings me right back to the issue that set off the alarms in the first place. I don’t want this guy messing with my mind, my life, my body, my job, my money or anything else. From that perspective, the choice seems pretty simple. And once he’s gone, I can go back to being empathic with people who interest me or who I have reason to care about.
So as usual, one of my very long posts. I hope it makes sense.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 11 November 2009 @ 2:16am
stillstunned says:
I have been on the sidelines reading this blog and articles trying to understand and figure out how to handle my exposure to at S. I was knocked out of my chair when I read the posting about 3 months. The woman I met at 3 months took off and left me in a confused and lost state of mind. After of course getting as many things as possible that she could take from me.
3 months seems to be something that others have experienced as well.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 6:40pm
OxDrover says:
Welcome, Stillstunned,
“time” is different with different con jobs, there is the short con, 1-2 days, the longer con, a couple of weeks, then they go on up from there to a life time of conning, decades even before it becomes obvious to the victim.
Recovery is the same way, some people recover quickly, some in a “little while” and some of us take months or years to sort it all out. It takes as long as it takes.
Generally with a romantic or business con they “love bomb” the victim for a period of time, weeks or months, then the abuse starts and the “drama dance:” goes on until they leave or are kicked to the curb.
Sorry ou are here, but glad that you found this place of knowledge and healing. Stick around and read and learn. Knowledge helps us get our power back. God bless.
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 10:03pm
style1 says:
he has crossed my mind today.. because last year at this time..we were together and I recalled him telling me that two of his wives were violent, one even came after him with a knife and I asked him what provoked them and he told me that he didn’t know….
then after I punch him once in the shoulder in total frustration during and argument he is 6′1” and I’m 5′3″ 115 pounds.. he began calling me violent and I have never been called that in my whole life.. The way that he treated me, infiltrated my life, actually negated me and what I might want in his manipulation and contrived emotions… filled me with frustration….
I wonder did he do this to all the women in his life.. then he acts like he has no idea why they behaved that way…
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Wednesday, 25 November 2009 @ 10:23pm
robxsykobabe says:
I had that womens intuition…you all know that feeling you get when you KNOW something is not right? Well, I had never looked at his texts before, although this day I did. I found a text NOT sent to me saying “I cant stop thinking about your kisses” and another sent to someone saying “goodmorning, Im thinking about you”. I sent a reply back to the texts saying “goodmorning” and received one in return, again saying ‘goodmorning, how are you?”
I confronted him with what I saw on his phone and he, of course, tried telling me the texts were SUPPOSED TO go to me, but must not have made it! The name that they were sent to though was “Gus”. Well, needless to say, he became irate with me saying he wasn’t gonna be in a relationship with someone who couldnt trust him and he packed his things from my house and left!
He SWORE up and down that the text was sent to me originally, however, he is too stupid to know that I sent a reply to whomever (Gus) they were to and got a reply.
That was about a year ago and it still makes my stomache turn.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 9:54pm
Matt says:
robxsykobabe:
Women’s intuition, men’s intuition — we all should learn to trust that gut feeling that we KNOW they are cheating.
The first rule I adopted after my relationship with the S was that I would never tolerate texting again. You can text me during the day when you know I’m probably in a meeting. You can text me if you’re running 10 minutes late and you’re about to get on the subway to get here. After that, I don’t want to know squat about texting. As I learned the hard way with the S, texting gives S’s the perfect opportunity to cheat on you — I was stupid enough to believe that texting is a form of communicating. It isn’t. Quite simply, it boils down to common sense. The amount of time it takes to type in a long message/diatribe/whatever, could instead be spent talking to me. And if you can’t dial the phone and talk to me, but can find the time to text back and forth, then you’re obviously doing something you don’t want me to know about.
So, never settle for texts outside of the two circumstances I mentioned above. If you’re getting bombarded with texts, I can guarantee that the person texting you is up to no good.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 10:26pm
ErinBrock says:
Matt:
I have ‘delayed’ getting into the texting world! I cancelled the kids texting too!
I WANT and insist on the phone calls…..
I HATE it when someone is texting back and forth in my presence…..I speak up!
I think it’s an unneccesary way to ‘multi task’….or hide from reality.
I have ignored the texting on purpose…..I don’t want to be that available to my clients either……
So ….my rule is NO Texts!
I block em.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 1:37am
pollyannanomore says:
Kathleen that was a pretty stupendous and incredible piece of writing there – I read the whole thing and really GOT IT. It’s about them at first but mostly it’s about us. I understand – I had wounds there long before he came along that I was plastering with hope and faith – he saw the wounds and saw a big opportunity.
Had I only taken the time to clean out the wounds and let them heal, he never would have made it over my threshold. I haven’t had the courage to depend on my intuition – to listen to it and honor what it tells me and in reality it is the only alarm system I will ever have so I was dumb not to have developed it prior to meeting him.
Like many others, I had the illusion that everyone is basically good. I now know that is just not true and whilst it is a disappointment to realise it, it will serve me better to live in reality rather than an illusory world that doesn’t exist. I will apply the Rule of Threes in the future with people I don’t get automatic alarms with = one mistake is excusable, two means a serious problem and three means you’re gone – that applies to lies, broken promises or arrangements, moodiness without explanation and a whole host of other unacceptable behaviours.
I agree with you we are far too often polite and ‘nice’ instead of safe and respected. I have started to say ‘no’ if I am uncomfortable with something. I have started to refuse things I don’t want. In doing so I am being authentic rather than who I think people might want me to be … so rather than being rude it honors my own spirit and the spirits of those I interact with.
Excellent post too! I can relate to those behaviours = they were so painful each time they occured.
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 6:01am