What All Sociopaths Have In Common
PDF As we think about sociopaths, let’s remember that they can make diverse presentations, which can make it hard to know if (and when) you’re dealing with one.
Although sociopathy is a personality disorder, it’s complicated by the fact that sociopaths have widely diverse personalities.
There are smart sociopaths and dumb sociopaths; gregarious sociopaths and more withdrawn sociopaths; engaging sociopaths and paranoid sociopaths; calculating sociopaths and more impulsive sociopaths; socially skilled, and socially unskilled sociopaths.
There are charismatic sociopaths and sociopaths with dull personalities. There are sociopaths who may leave you feeling remarkably comfortable, and sociopaths who may leave you feeling extremely creeped-out.
Some sociopaths are physically violent personalities, while others are no more prone to violence than you or I.
Given this diversity among them, what, then, do sociopaths have in common?
I take a stab, below, at answering this question, which itself isn’t so cut and dried. But what follow are some qualities that I believe all sociopaths have in common.
All sociopaths are emotionally shallow.
While sociopaths don’t have a patent on emotional shallowness (nonsociopaths can be emotionally shallow), they do have this terrain thoroughly covered. All sociopaths, without exception, are emotionally shallow.
It’s not that sociopaths don’t have and feel emotions. They are human beings, inclined as they are to transgress others. They want things. They feel their discomforts, pleasures, cravings.
But what sociopaths lack, fundamentally, is emotional interest in others. They may be interested in what others have [for them]; that is, what others have [for them] may evoke, and even stimulate, their emotions. However, they are not interested, genuinely, in who others are.
The sociopath, for instance, may recognize, and even pay very close attention, to your mood. But his interest in your mood will hinge on how your mood affects his agenda.
He is like the amoral child who, watching his mother and shrewdly detecting her vigilant energy, decides it’s not a good time to lift the five-dollar bill off the kitchen counter. He has read her carefully, and perhaps accurately. But his interest in her state of mind, and emotions, is limited to the advancement of his agenda.
All sociopaths are disloyal individuals.
I see this as a truism about sociopaths. Sociopaths may seem and even act loyal, but only so long as they calculate that the cost of their loyalty hasn’t yet exceeded its benefit [to them].
As soon as the sociopath discerns that the cost of his loyalty exceeds the advantage, he betrays those to whom he’d apparently been “loyal.”
His self-interest, in other words, is paramount, and supercedes his capacity for self-sacrifice.
All sociopaths are habitual transgressors (without meaningful remorse) of others’ boundaries.
Whether calculating or more impulse-driven, sociopaths are habitual boundary violators, without genuine remorse for their hurtful effect on others. Some (not all) sociopaths “get off” on their exploitation—meaning that, for them, the process of exploiting is the motive force that drives their exploitation.
Sociopaths may be childishly fascinated by the exercising of their power to “push the envelope,” to “pull off” capers and dodge accountability.
Their lack of remorse—lack, indeed, of any form of genuine accountability—is one of the perplexing aspects of this personality disorder. And there’s probaby not a single explanation for this.
All sociopaths grossly lack compassion.
A lack of empathy is commonly ascribed to sociopaths, but I sometimes wonder if the sociopath’s lack of compassion isn’t a more germane descriptor.
Part of the problem with empathy is that people view it differently—arguably, there are different “types” of empathy that elude a single, unifying definition.
You will sometimes hear people say about sociopaths that, rather than lacking empathy, they actually use their empathy exploitively. I don’t see it that way. I view a mindset of empathy as the antithesis of the exploitive mindset—thus, someone feeling empathic (by my definition of empathy) could not use his empathy to exploit. That would be logically impossible.
But I think we escape this definitional confusion altogether when we consider sociopaths and the issue of compassion. In this regard, I assert that all sociopaths lack genuine compassion for others.
I’m suggesting that, even more than his empathic deficiency, the sociopath’s gross lack of compassion enables his infamous abuse of others’ dignity and space.
(See an upcoming post, Sociopathy: A Disorder of Compassion, for an elaboration of this idea.)
All sociopaths lack appropriate shame.
Sociopaths’ deficient levels of shame support their exploitive tendencies. Shame gives us pause, and sociopaths do very little “pausing.” Most of us contemplate the factor of shame, or prospective shame, in the decisions we make.
Our automatic, often unconscious review of how shameful we’re likely to feel following a chosen action allows us to think twice before executing it. It gives us room to cancel a plan whose execution we deem, on reflection and in anticipation, risks reigning shame down upon us.
Sociopaths lack shame to fear. Lacking shame to fear disinhibits them from pursuing destructive ideas that the rest of us, more often than not, will “pass” at.
Sociopaths are audacious personalties.
As I’ve indicated in several LoveFraud pieces, there is something audacious about the sociopath. He is prone to behaviors that leave the rest of us, whether as victims or witnesses, shaking one’s head. His levels of gall, hubrus are astonishing.
Where the nonsociopath, as just discussed, will find opportunities to scrap a bad plan, the sociopath is more likely to eschew prudent consideration (and reconsideration) and pursue the flawed plan, anyway.
His audacity—see my LoveFraud piece, The Audacity Of The Sociopath—is a curious and troubling aspect of his personality.
Sociopaths are liars and deceivers.
Lying and deceiving are close cousins, and sociopaths routinely do both. But this doesn’t make them necessary good at either (although they may be). A sociopath may assert, as if he really believes it, that he broke the world record in the mile, but this doesn’t make it a good lie.
The premise is preposterous; and so what’s most striking about the lie is its audacity, not its believability.
Sociopaths often, for instance, defend untenable positions from, it seems, sheer contempt for their audience. Consider this interaction:
Wife: I saw you with your secretary at Chile’s, today, at 12:15. You were kissing.
Sociopath: What are you talking about? I didn’t leave the office all day.
Wife: I saw you. Don’t bullshit me.
Sociopath: Yeah right. Ask Allen…we were in a meeting at 12:15. Go ahead. Why don’t you fucking call him and ask him?
Wife: I knew you’d say that. I already called the office. Allen’s in San Diego, and you know that.
Sociopath: You’re fucking crazy. You know what, stop fucking stalking me! That’s your problem. Maybe if you’d stop fucking stalking me you’d actually find something valid to accuse me of!
Wife: Don’t change the subject. You’re lying.
Sociopath: No…this is the subject. You’ve got a fucking stalking problem. So let’s not change that subject. You know what, honey? One of these days your fucking stalking’s gonna really drive me into someone else’s arms.
Wife: You were kissing her, John.
Sociopath: You know what? Fuck you. How ’bout that? Fuck you.
Rife with sociopathic machinations, this interaction starts with the assertion and insistence of a preposterous lie, then maneuvers quickly into deflection, gaslighting and other abusive strategies.
In upcoming posts, I’ll extend the list of traits that all sociopaths, I believe, share in common.
(My use of “he” in this article was for purposes of convenience, not to suggest that females aren’t capable of expressing the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)
(This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
Rosa says:
Witsend:
I also have a hard time TELLING.
How do you put something like this into words, right?
I know.
I guess I would focus on the one point you want to get across to this counselor, and work around that.
Form a beginning, middle, and an end (conclusion).
And support your point with examples.
Give her any relevant family history, like traumatic childhood events, timelines, etc.
If I were in your shoes, I think I might also start out the session by asking this counselor how much she knows about personality disorders & addiction.
I would find some information online, print it off, and take it with me to the session…..just in case she does not know very much about these subjects.
Sometimes, policemen work closely with counselors and social workers.
Maybe the policeman has some suggestions about this????
I don’t know. I am just throwing ideas out there.
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witsend says:
Rosa,
I am wanting ideas! So throw away at me….
Yes, I do want to include background of family history. Of course she would need to know about the suicide, my sons trama at being there, and his fathers addictions. My history alcoholic upbringing ect.
I guess that is it in a nutshell…..I want to include anything that might be important information and not take up alot of time with just “stuff”.
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Rosa says:
Witsend:
You were also dealing with a counselor at your son’s school, weren’t you?
Would it be beneficial for this new counselor to have a phone conversation with the school counselor/teachers??
Would this help the new counselor get a grasp on your son’s behavior, not only with you but with the school counselor as well?
I don’t know. That would have to be your call.
If the school counselor was not very effective, it may be a waste of time.
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skylar says:
Witsend,
in a way, all the personal stuff is just stuff.
Your son and my exP have the same personality but 2 completely different historys. It’s like the flu, once you caught it, it doesn’t really matter how. Of course, she will want a history and she will incorporate it into her diagnosis, but in the end it will just add details to the core personality disorder.
I hope that you can get the book at the library. look up your local library online and do a search and have it held if you can. They also have a connection to WorldCat, which includes all the libraries’ databases in your area.
She will be completely helpless unless she understands cluster B personality disorders and the spectrum of narcissism.
I’ll look for some links of webpages you might be able to print out to help.
(Report abusive comment)
amber says:
Wit..you’re so right. Trying to discuss this with some of my friends and even my sister..I may as well be talking to a brick wall. All they can say is, “just don’t talk to him.” “It’s you’re own fault.” They just don’t have a clue. And that’s what lead me here!! I was at the end of my rope. I knew I had to find people that UNDERSTOOD ME. And I can’t tell you how amazing it is to talk to people that KNOW! So I do have my reservations about the counselor I’m going to see. I don’t want to spend the time teacher her about the S personality disorder. We’ll see how it goes.
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witsend says:
skylar,
I did order the book at amozon. I just don’t know for sure if it will arrive on time. But some printo out of info would be good.
I don’t have a working printer so I will go to the library to print out the school info from edline and I can print off other stuff at the same time.
(Report abusive comment)
witsend says:
rosa,
the school counselor has been not been very effective, however I would definately sign release forms for her to talk with them if she desired. This wouldn’t be a problem for me.
He is going to be facing in a matter of weeks being dismissed from school anyways. As they gave him a time limit to step to the plate. And he has not done so yet.
(Report abusive comment)
Rosa says:
Witsend:
You mentioned once that the one thing your son is still responsible about is his job.
He likes the money he earns from his job, like most teenagers.
Is this still the case??
What is his boss like at this job? Have you ever met him?
Does he have any influence over your son?
Can he provide any insights to these counselors??
I would exhaust every avenue, and get as many people involved (who may be able to help) as possible.
In Dr. Leedom’s book, I read that sometimes it takes more than one adult to get through to a troubled teenager.
Not to give false hope, but I also read that it is still possible for your son to grow out of this.
He’s only 16, going on 17.
There’s still time, but the window is closing.
(Report abusive comment)
witsend says:
Rosa,
He worships money. Money = power in his eyes. He is not necessarily responsible at work. He goes to work because of his worship of money. The one and ONLY reason he was able to maintain his job for 2 summers in a row is because he works with young people. (just a few years older than himself)
He has done many things that he has no business doing at work. Gotten away with it because of the lack of adults/bosses present during his shift. Long story about the job…..I won’t get into it.
Trust me the job does not equal responsibility on his part.
His boss doesn’t know him well but seems to like him. His boss also isn’t someone who knows him well enough to be much help.
(Report abusive comment)
Rosa says:
Witsend:
OK, so he loves money. That gets his attention.
That’s something I would tell the counselor on Wednesday.
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OxDrover says:
Banana,
I’d have to have more info on what the “situation” was—-sounds like “drama” but not enough info for me to really tell what she is getting at. Did she abuse someone? Did they abuse her? Is any of this your problem? If so, what part?
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skylar says:
Witsend,
here’s an article that mentions some drug treatments for psychopaths including SSRI and thyroid meds.
http://www.psychiatrictimes.co.....geNumber=1
I have taken thyroid medications and can attest that they certainly reduce anxiety. I was about to lose my driver’s license from getting so many tickets for speeding before I began taking the thyroid medications. When I took the Levoxyl (brand name for synthetic thyroxin) I was able to drive without feeling like I needed to hurry all the time. It takes the edge off. After I quit, well, I still speed sometimes, but I’m ABLE to remember what it’s like not to be in a hurry and can calm myself. I realize that my compulsion to speed is caused by too much adrenalin and can choose not to. Thyroxin helps to balance the adrenalin, they seem to oppose each other. Maybe your boy needs to have his thyroid levels checked… I bet they are low.
BTW, I wasn’t prescribed thyroid meds for speeding it just happened to work for that too. My problem was chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia pain, which it also helped. Now that I’m no longer being poisoned by my xP, I don’t bother to take the med because I’m not tired and have no pain.
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skylar says:
To get your levels checked you need to go to a specialist in thyroid problems because this field is very controversial and there are special ways to check for subclinical low-levels. In ohter words, not everyone’s thyroid will show low levels without a TSH challenge test.
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skylar says:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/cli.....0Disorders
witsend here is another link with very well described traits of cluster B’s. You could copy and paste it in MSWord and add examples of your son’s behavior to each trait description.
(Report abusive comment)
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
As a retired medical professional who is very familiar with thyroid medication and how and why and under what circumstances it is given for, it is ONLY rx’d for low thyroid hormone, which can cause anxiety etc. BUT, and this is a BIG one, how you “feel” does not necessarily relate to your thyroid levels.
I think it would be wiser if you were not recommending or not recommending (as the case may be) prescriptions by physicians that are determined by lab values rather just “how do you feel.”
If you want to not get your values checked and not take the medicine, you have that right as it is your body. I personally think it is an UNwise decision, as the thyroid is a very very important hormone to the body, but it is your right. Advising others on these medical things I think is quite out of your line of expertise though, and i would not want someone to follow your “medical advice” and end up suffering consequences for it.
As far as medication treatment for Ps, there are several good articles written here by Dr. Leedom (M.D.) that you might look back on it (no sense in me repeating it here) about the lack of effectiveness for medication for Ps. Also Witsend has repeated that her son REFUSES to take any kind of medication and there is no way to force him. Even if there was an effective treatmednt (he is also ADHD she said) for which there is a treatment, as long as he refuses, the point is moot.
I don’;t mean to come down on you about the medicaton, but giving medical advise is pretty risky even for a professional and for most people, I recommend that they see their PHYSICIAN for any symptoms from depression to Fibro, chronic fatigue or any other thing. some of these things can be mimiced by things like CANCER and other things so they need a good check up. Stress does some nasty things to us, like pain, depression etc. but there can ALSO be thyroid involved, or any of a bunch of things from heart conditions on up. (((hugs))))
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skylar says:
Oxy, I guess I wasn’t clear. I’ll try again
I recommended that a thyroid specialist (an endocronologist whose specialty is thyroid disease) should evaluate her son.
Don’t really understand your second paragraph but I’m not recommending anything other than an evaluation BY A SPECIALIST PHYSICIAN and an Rx based on THEIR evaluation. I guarantee you and my physician will guarantee you that low thyroid VERY MUCH AFFECTS HOW YOU FEEL. It contributes to depression and anxiety and the resulting behaviors of those mental states. I’ve been off and on the meds for the last 10 years, and I’ve tried different dosages from 30mg to 120mg of T4. I’ve even dropped the T4 and just used T3 like the body builders do. (not recommended).
I do experiment and my doctor encouraged me to do so. He said, “you need to keep track of how YOU feel in response to different dosages, everyone is different.” I no longer take the meds because I just don’t get enough benefit to justify the costs of appts, tests and meds. But all doctors will tell you once you start you will take it for life.
The thyroid tests are varied. I used to have it all memorized, but suffice it to say that your Family doctor will only test your T4 levels and maybe T3, but an endocronologist will do a special test which challenges with TSH (thyroid stimulating hormone).
TSH is a the hormone which signals your thyroid to release T4. So, although my T4 was only slightly low, the challenge test (an injection of TSH) showed that my thyroid was barely releasing any T4 in response to that challenge.
Believe me Oxy, before I spent all my time here, researching N/P/S’s, I used to spend all my time on the thyroid boards, the FMS/CFS boards, and a myriad of other boards trying to figure out why I was sick all the time. I now understand that I was being poisoned, but until then, I was managing my symptoms with thyroid meds and various suppements which helped the mitochondrial efficiency of my cells: magnesium, cq10, carnitine, HMB.
I did research and then used trial and error over the last 20 years to finally learn to manage the most horrendous, burning muscle pain. Pain that, if I had known it would last as long as it did, I would have preferred death. Only my optomism kept me alive.
As it turned out a lawyer, recommended I see this doctor because he said my personality reminded him of his niece who suffered from low thyroid and she got better. My personality was one of extreme anxiety but I wasn’t even aware of it until it was managed by the medication.
Once I started using the t4 and t3 (levoxy and cytomel), I became much calmer and drove slower. Unfortunately, I gained 30 lbs. It made me love food, which normally and can take it or leave it, food just fills a hole in my gut. My weight gain is actually the opposite reaction to thyroid meds since most low thyroid people are sluggish and fat, but I was anxious and skinny and hyper from too much adrenalin. I became sluggish and fat on the meds. The reason I took them is because the tests showed that I needed them and because they relieved my body pain and slowed my driving. Other than that I’m an adrenalin junkie, so if I’m not in pain I’d rather not take them. If I were to get pregnant, I would take them because low thyroid in the mother is associated with mental retardation in their children.
I think, somehow the two hormones oppose each other or else one will take up the slack when the other is low, I’m not sure.
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skylar says:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html
here’s an excellent link witsend, you can print this out for your therapist to read or email it. It’s very concise.
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witsend says:
skylar,
Thanks for the links. I will try to bring something with me pertaining to N tendancys, the book or, printed information from the internet. SOMETHING.
I appreciate your time. I have often thought of different medical conditions that could also be adding to the problems with my son. I know of no way right now to get my son to comply with even going to a doctor let alone taking test of any kind. I don’t know if I can emphasise this enough. Unless it’s his idea he wouldn’t go.
Today was a bad day. Right the minute school was over….There is defiantely an underlying tension in the house…..It has been growing since the day the cops came here.
To add to that tension, the dog got sick (he is doing better on the meds) and I have to be gone 2 days next weekend for the show and 2 days the next weekend after that. So I’m sure I am stressed about that.
I have been trying to just lay low. Trying to avoid confrontation, trying to just get through each day. Today that didn’t happen. First he was shitty to me right after school. Disrespectful. I kind of let that go…….It happens alot.
Then he told me he needed to go to the bank to get some money out for shoes and a skateboard, because he was going to order them online with my credit card….(and give me the money)
Well I explained to him that my payment was just made and until that payment cleared he was going to have to wait to use my card….
That turned into a train wreck. Because evidentaly he didn’t hear a word I said. And I repeated the card wasn’t going to be used until the payment cleared when he came downstairs ready to order the stuff.
Pretty soon he was arguing with me about credit cards and blah, blah blah…..How he knew all about credit cards cause they covered it in class last year….(a class he flunked) And now he’s projecting all his crap onto me….And of course then the conversation is going everywhere and nowhere….So FAR REMOVED from where it began.
And of course by this time I had just HAD IT. I guess I really have had about all I can take from him. So I asked him what he would do if he needed a skateboard & skateboard shoes WHEN he turns 17 in a few weeks FROM NOW and isn’t living here anymore. Whos credit card is he going to USE THEN to order online? How is he going to deal with these things? Maybe it is time for him to think about this now?? Trying to include LOGIC back into the conversation.
Then the conversation turned into what a terrible parent I am……
And the train wreck continued…….
It REALLY is ALL about THEIR perception of things. Their LIES all tangled up into their world that they reside in….
He brought up some stuff that is totaly NON REALITY. About how in his freshman year and his sophmore year at school he flunked his classes not because of anything HE DID but because the teachers were flunking him on purpose. This year he has decided to flunk on his own….
The reason he doesn’t have internet service is because I am a terrible parent. It has nothing to do with the fact that he “lost it “when he refused to take responsibility at school. He is entitled to this and doesn’t have to earn anything. Its all about the terrible and wicked parent that I am. I AM the reason he doesn’t have internet service….NOT a mention of his actually being able to easily CHANGE that by passing anything in school. His teachers are all crazy, I am crazy….
HELL we are ALL NUTS. And the entire time he looked at me with the intimidating stare.
He actually broke down and cried once during this for a moment….I have not seen this before.
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witsend says:
skylar,
that last link you sent was the best to describe him. OMG, I can’t find anything on there that doesn’t define what I see, I don’t think….
I will have to go back and reread.
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skylar says:
OMG. witsend, he cried?
that almost makes me cry. God I wish I could give you both hugs right now. I wish it so much.
Any chance you could go to his room and hug him without him beating you up?
Don’t change your resolve and determination. Know that at any time he could turn into a monster. but is it possible for you to show him some kind of tenderness? Something that could change the way you communicate with each other?
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skylar says:
BTW, I got that link by posting on a chat forum just to see what came up! Lots of people responded with information about their own experiences. I referred some to here.
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witsend says:
skylar,
I moved me to. But that is the PROBLEM. Here I am feeling like a complete piece of SHIT. Like shit under someone shoes.
Because he cried for a few seconds. But before and after the tears he said some terrible stuff to me…
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Matt says:
witsend:
I don’t mean to sound like a hard-ass here, but I wouldn’t fall for the tears. S was a master of turning on the waterworks when it suited him. I always fell for it. And then came the last time he tried it. I remember watching all this sturm-und-drang. All I can remember thinking as I watched the performance was “there’s nothing going on below the surface. Absolutely nothing.” It was chilling. And then, he suddenly turned it off like flicking a light switch.
So, hard-ass I may be, but with my feet on the ground and my eyes on my checkbook, I have concluded that they don’t shed a single tear unless they think there’s something in it for them.
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skylar says:
yeah, its a coin toss with the odd being in favor of a con job.
you’re absolutely right Matt. I’ve seen it too. But if it’s real, look at the pay off and realize too that he is still young.
Odds are 90% it’s fake.
But witsend, you need to learn to feel nothing. You shouldn’t feel like a piece of shit because he cries. You did nothing wrong. KNOW THAT, OWN THAT. Don’t let him use your emotions against you. You must show no anger or frustration or anything other than love and firmness in discipline. Let the crap he flings roll off of you. You need to look at this as if it is your job to do your best job raising this kid and then wash your hands. If that means giving him a hug when he cries (as long as he isn’t holding a knife), hug him, but don’t change your resolve to remain stoic.
I know, it’s easier to say than to do and your odds aren’t that great…
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witsend says:
Matt,
I get what your saying….The intelect gets it.
The intelect even gets the whole your a terrible parent thing…I know in my heart I am not a terrible parent.
But even his perception that I am a terrible parent hurts.
BECAUSE I believe he does believe this to be true. It is a big part of the fantasy world that he lives in. He also believes he doesn’t need an education because he is going to make it in life w/o an education.
If he is turning on the tears when he is telling others his “story” of his terrible mother at home….I can tell you, they are going to fall for it to….Because I almost did….And I’m the “terrible” mother.
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Annie says:
Hello Steve,
This is an excellent article.
In one of my first posts on LF I was “complaining” that I thought both Hare & Cleckly’s definitions were missing “something”. Your article comes closer than any other I’ve read to describing the characteristics of the psychopaths/sociopaths I have repeatedly encountered in my life:
– women like my mother who was very much like Rosa’s sister-in-law (publicly a medical professional, a natural leader, congenial, largely respected and liked/admired, privately a cunning and sadistic abuser and terrorizer);
– the successful corporate types I encountered in both the financial services and medical technology industries (both the bullies/terrorizers/powercrazed, and the slick/smooth operators who lead their divisions into ruin and disaster before jumping ship).
Hare concentrated on violent male convicted offenders because that’s where he first encountered psychopaths, and had the means and opportunity to study them. It was in this environment he developed the PCL (-R). But I’ve always felt that his tool measures the characteristics of that particular type of psychopath (violent incarcerated, perhaps not-so-bright male), but largely leaves out most of the other types you’ve mentioned in your article, specifically the type who are cunning, far-sighted and thoughtful – not impetuous unless it suits their purpose. And especially those who are sadistic. He mentions those characteristics in his book, but doesn’t measure them in his tool.
More to the point, I was most impressed with your substitution of the term “compassion” in place of “empathy”. Stroke of brilliance that, in my opinion. You’ve hit the nail squarely on the head.
!!Geek alert here!!!
I’m a bit of a word geek – forever looking up the etymology of words if I’m not certain of their meaning. “Empathy” is a very difficult and complex word, only recently introduced into the English language (1909) as a direct translation of a German word used to describe a concept in art appreciation: “Einfühlung” (in feeling) – a subject/object relationship where the subject attributes an emotional state to an object – a work of art. Its current usage almost inverts its original meaning – which was much closer in meaning to the way you mentioned in your article:
“You will sometimes hear people say about sociopaths that, rather than lacking empathy, they actually use their empathy exploitively”
For any fellow geeks in the crowd, I’ve included some references:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=empathy
http://www.newcriterion.com/po.....pathy-5885
http://www.culturalgadfly.com/?p=1600
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks Annie for those links, particularly the cultural gadfly one.
I did a search to try to pin down the meaning of empathy a few months ago. I’d been using the word in my writing, and suddenly started wondering if I had the differences between sympathy and empathy right. Well, that was a search I wished I’d never started. Both words seem to be weighted down by so many opinions and so little objective agreement that I’m came away knowing less than when I started.
But in my own mind, sympathy is when I stand outside of another person’s experience, but feel for them. Like I’m happy for someone who wins a prize. Or I want to comfort someone who is hurt. To me, sympathy also risks edging into the territory of sentimentality or cheap emotion without a lot of subtlety. But it can be important, as a bonding element, when someone around us in need.
Empathy on the other hand is getting right into another person’s experience. I have a habit, when I listen to classic music of imagining I’m writing it, so that I understand the composer’s intention as much as I can. Likewise in looking at visual art. To me, empathy is enriching, because it introduces us to realities that may not be common to us. When I was living with the sociopath, one of the reasons I learned so much from him was that I deliberately tried to put myself into his experience of life. (Something I did at an entirely different level that the place where I was suffering because of his inability to connect emotionally.)
Because empathy is such an opening experience, I could feel that it sometimes made me vulnerable. ‘ve learned to deliberately shut down my empathetic inclinations when I feel internal alerts that I’m dealing with someone who is predatory or simply draining. It’s hard to do. It feels like I’m working with half my brain shut off, and it gives me great motivation to get away from these people ASAP.
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Annie says:
Hello Kathleen (and Steve, and well, everyone here on LF!),
!!! Word geek alert!!!
I’m glad that you found the links interesting. I hear you about the confusion and wishing you’d never started looking! I think that sympathy/empathy are two words which have largely moved away from their origins and where my etymological habit just added to the confusion.
I think the way you’ve described them is in line with the most widely accepted common usage, and the way I understood them before I started digging, but appears to be almost ‘flipped’ from the way they were used years prior.
Funny thing about the English language – with the thousands of words at our disposal, often the most important and resonant concepts of human interaction are poorly served by language. Like “love”. So very many types of “love” – parent/child, sibling/sibling, friends, lovers, partners (e.g. cops, paramedics, etc…), close relations, owners/pets – and yet only one word to cover so many different things.
Years ago a friend of ours often used the question “What is the difference between sympathy and empathy?” in interviews. This is what started my etymological digging. So when I first encountered Hare’s work on psychopathy my radar went up when I saw the word empathy – and I always felt uncomfortable with it.
I’ve read several blogs/articles on empathy/sympathy (using meaning closer to the etymological roots) that assert that sympathy has more to do with feeling “with” another (specifically wanting to soothe and take away the sufferers pain), and empathy has more to do with “understanding” another’s emotion – without judgement. I’ve also heard the “tuning fork” analogy used here (more about that later.) I think this version/definition, regardless of its accuracy, comes closer to what may be going on with psychopaths/sociopaths – in my experience they are finely tuned to pick up others emotions – and here Steve’s reference to “lack of compassion” is most relevant. I believe they are finely tuned to pick up on and understand other’s emotions but they don’t interpret them the way others do. Instead of feeling that the other person is “like me”, they see the sufferer as “other” and a target.
!!! End of word Geek alert !!!
Re: the tuning fork analogy: We have two cats that we love to pieces, that have very different personalities. When my husband or I are feeling distress one of them (the most affectionate one) literally picks up and ‘vibrates’ our emotions back – he’ll start howling in the most discomfiting way and we have to comfort him! The other cat who is more aloof will try to comfort us! She’ll crawl into our laps and refuse to budge, and will purr loud enough to wake the dead. She’ll also come up and put her paw on our shoulder – just like a human would do!
This tuning fork analogy feels very familiar to me: my mother could pick up and amplify the smallest distress vibrations. Except that, unlike our cat who feels distress when we feel distress, my mother would feel joy and satisfaction at another’s distress. But like our cat, or a tuning fork, my mother couldn’t control it or stop herself. My mother would be drawn to distress like a shark is drawn to blood in the water. The most telling sign would be the subtle cold “smile” which she tried to but could never quite hide, which I now know from reading books on crime detection is a flexing of the “biting” muscles around one’s mouth. Using the word “empathy” to describe this is very much out of place with its current usage. But I feel that we need a word or term to describe it nonetheless.
Back to Kathleen’s post: I’m fascinated by what you wrote about empathy making you more vulnerable, and being able to turn it off around predators. You seem to have developed both a built-in warning system, and a method of self-defence. I would love to hear more if you’d care to elaborate. You may have given me a clue to why I seem to have so little detection ability – almost the polar opposite of my mother, even though I’m highly intuitive and very affectionate with people I trust. I’m starting to wonder if I may have unconsciously turned mine off as a child as a similar defence mechanism. I’ll have to think more about that… I used to have 0 radar for many predators (particularly types other than the ones I’d been exposed to as a child), and even now I have to intellectually work my way through situational cues to ‘see’ them. Unfortunately since I’ve been able to develop my detection skills and finally see them, I’ve ended up being more frightened and becoming almost house-bound, because I know that seeing them (if they know that you see them) makes you much more vulnerable.
I need a defence system to go along with my newly acquired predator radar! I’ve never felt comfortable with the advice given by Hare, Babiak, Stout, etc… that the only defence is to run away. That just isn’t possible in so many circumstances. I think we need a psychopath/sociopath self-defence course – a version based on women’s self-defence training courses: awareness, detection, avoidance, deterance – based on predator type.
I’ve been learning a lot from Erin B’s posts re: her court case. Perhaps she and Matt (or Steve, or Donna, or Oxdrover, …) might consider putting together a Sociopath self-defence training manual…?
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OxDrover says:
Dear Annie,
I’m also a bit of a WORD GEEK! The one that was most recent for me was WRATH vs. ANGER. The thing that got me to thinking about these two was a minister who told me (wrongly I believe) that “anger” is a SIN!
I didn’t go back to this minister (actually I think he is an N) and confront him, but settled the question myself to my own satisfaction. Jesus said “be ye angry and sin not.” Christ himself was angry, so I don’t figure that is a sin.
Jesus also said “don’t let the sun go down upon your WRATH”
Having thought that wrath=anger most of my life, I looked up WRATH and found that anger is only one component of it, it is a vengeful hateful bitterness that you nurse for a “long period” of time. It doesn’t hurt the person you are justifiably angry at for what they did, but it HURTS YOU. As the article here about when does “bitterness become a disorder” the WRATFUL feelings that some of us (me included) have nurtured and fed for long periods of time inhibit our ability to heal ourselves by focusing on the injustice the others have done. It literally poisons us.
I get a daily e mail from Dr. Goodword with a study of a word and this is quite interesting; where they come from and the expanded meanings. It is interesting too in that some of the words that I commonly use or hear I didn’t really have the exact meaning correct.
My egg donor who used to be an English teacher and I used to debate the meanings of various words, and my late husband and I did. It is really quite interesting when you study them in depth. so I don’t think you are way off by liking to know the meanings of different words. the more of a language we know, the better we are able to express ourselves. Unfortunately, the person we are expressing ourselves to also has to understand the meanings of those words.
You are so right about the word “love” in English, it can mean so many different things, I think in the end, it sometimes means NOTHING. I do not fluently speak any other language, but I ahve been exposed to many other languages and studied some of the characteristics of them, how they have words to convey meanings that English doesn’t have. Or even SOUNDS that the English trained ear cannot “hear” (like the clicks of the Bantu language and some sounds in Arabic for example, I am sure there are others.) Our language shapes our thinking in so many ways, without language we would not be much above any other animal’s ability to think.
Thank you for your contrabutions to our discussion. (((hugs))))
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Annie says:
Oxy!
OK if I say I “love” you for that post? Two quotes I thought you might like:
“The Eskimo has fifty-two names for snow because it is important to them; there ought to be as many for love.”
“War is what happens when language fails.”
– Margaret Atwood
(((hugs back))))
Annie
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OxDrover says:
Dear Annie,
Yes, you can say you “love” me for any reason! (I’m a push over for sweet words! Else I wouldn’t be here! LOL ROTFLMAO)
I had heard the Eskimo thing but it was like 200 words or something like that, but same thought.
When I was a kid I spent time in South Africa and other places filming wild life. I was interested in the Bantu language. they only had words for 1, 2, 3 and anything above 3 was “many” but they had a word for “a black cow with one white spot on her left back leg” and each man could go into his herd of say 100 cows and know that one was missing and what the ONE word was that would describe her. I raise cattle myself and I hve to count them on my fingers and then try to figure out which one is missing. LOL Cows are their “currency” and it is like each one has a “serial number” and one word for that number. Amazing! to me. also they have clicks in their language which we can’t even “hear” I would have the natives speak a word over and over that had clicks and I would try to imitate it and I just couldn’t do it, I couldnt’ hear it. But in France I could have someone say a word and I could repeat it pretty well. The natives laughed (nicely) at my attempts to learn their language but I think it pleased them for me to try. An American child (age 4 ) was there at the same time we were and she was almost fluent by age 4 (she had been there a year or so) and could easily immitate the clicks in very complex multi-sylable words.
I had a friend who was Arabic and he used to try to teach me some words and he was amazed that I COULD hear some of the sounds and reproduce them, as he said most English speakers couldn’t. I did learn rudimentary Spanish when I worked at a hospital on the Mexican border and from the time we spent in South america and Central America, but probably about as much as a very young child would be able to say. I have forgotten most of it now though, except for the medical terms for “take a deep breath” or “roll over” and “where does it hurt?” I envy people who are bi or tri lingual. I wish I was.
Actually I am sort of bi-lingual, I speak both English and “Red NEck” LOL
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Annie says:
Oxy,
I don’t mean to take this thread so far away from Steve’s original topic, but I do love stuff like this. For me it’s like meditation – it takes me far outside myself and lets me re-examine life from an entirely different perspective – sets my curiosity in motion. Does farmer A in village/tribe X use the same word for that type of cow as farmer B in village/tribe Y? My understanding is we use base 10 math because it was built on the use of our 10 digits for counting. So automatically I wonder – why does Bantu stop at 3? And how can you keep track of over 100 cows if both “4 cows”, and “104 cows”, are counted as “many”? What does that mean in terms of their understanding of the world?
Over the last year or so we’ve been hearing a lot about brain plasticity in the media here. One of the “findings” is that people from different cultures literally have different brains – that the language you use in childhood influences how neural networks are laid out. And that being bi or tri-lingual gives you strong protection against dementia in old age. (Anyone see the episode of “Boston Legal” where William Shatner is trying to learn a new language to ward off the effects of “mad cow”?)
So it makes me wonder – what about psychopaths/sociopaths/cluster B’s in other cultures/languages? Are they more like each other across cultures, and less like their respective cultural counterparts? Or are the cultural/language/brain differences (if that is indeed found to be true) the same for them – meaning that a P/S from culture/language A will have differences from a P/S raised in culture/language B?
Just as the concept for “many” may be different from culture to culture, does anyone know how the concept of Psychopathy/Sociopathy concurs or differs across cultures?
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Annie, that was really interesting about the tuning fork metaphor. And the story about your mother picking up the vibes but having a paradoxical reaction. picks up but reverses it.
You asked about what I wrote, regarding turning off empathy when I got an internal alert. I want to answer that, but first I want to talk about some second thoughts about what I wrote earlier.
I said that sympathy could skate dangerously close to sentimentalism. And that empathy could make me vulnerable. I wanted to change that. I think that sympathy can make me feel good about myself, like I’m a good person, and that makes me suspect that it’s possibly being generated by some embedded social rules. (Like the things we do not to feel guilty or ashamed.)
Empathy on the other hand doesn’t make me feel anything about me. It’s more an observational, learning thing. Even though imagining I’m in someone else’s reality has to be projection, or at least limited by my own internal capabilities to understand, it still places me in a new framework of circumstances and challenges. So it’s interesting, but I don’t perceive it as being about me — unlike sympathy.
So I said that empathy could make me vulnerable. I think that’s true only because I’m not thinking about me, when it happens. I’m wide open to the experience, and drinking in information. And I’m not paying attention in any self-defensive way at all. So if circumstances change, to be threatening in some way, I’m in an open, interested, non-judging mode, and my first inclination may be to accept unquestioningly information that should shift me to a more cautious mode.
Here’s an example. Suppose I’m at a gallery opening, and I’m doing my thing about imagining what was going on in the artist’s mind when the work was created. Or maybe, if I’m lucky, even get the artist in a conversation to explore thiis and he’s willing to talk about himself. And then some third party arrives and says, “Our friend the artist is lucky to have such a sensitive and interested audience for his work.”
I’m wide open and listening empathetically. That is, I’m diving into this guy’s head as well to understand what’s going on with him. And what do I find? Him looking at me and seeing me in the nice way he just said. Unlike the artist whose emotions and expressions are hanging all over the walls, and who has been kind enough to talk with me abou his process, I know nothing else about this man. And I’m in an unjudging, non-defensive mode. I have a kind of unthinking frisson of pleasure in me that I’ve attracted this nice attention.
So, stop the movie right there. What is wrong with this picture? What just happened? And why is it dangerous?
I can’t tell you how long it would take my alert system to sound an alarm in this situation, but it probably wouldn’t take too long. And that’s because of how I felt. From one moment when I was totally involved in exploring and learning outside myself, this man’s comment has suddenly changed my orientation to inside myself. His words got me to look at me.
However “nice” they may have seemed, they were an uninvited commentary or judgment on me. And I’ve gotten to the point when I can feel that kind of shift as an uncomfortable thing.
If we want to talk about the ways that sociopaths come on, I would say this is a classic test of vulnerability. How I respond is going to give him a red or green light. If I care about what he thinks about me, if I respond as though it matters, he’s gotten the first and probably the most important green light of his interaction with me. And it will probably be followed up with personal questions to determine what he can get out of the interaction and what obstacles (like a husband) he might have to deal with, all the while he’s testing what compliments or areas of interest work with me.
I’m saying this for people who are still interested in understanding how sociopaths work. I’m not. I’m interested in what’s going on with me and how I feel about it.
The faster I snap to the fact that I’m facing a boundary challenge, the less information I’ll give this guy. But even if get charmed and tipsy enough to, God help me, land up spending the night with him, anytime the alert system finally catches my attention is a good time.
If I catch it immediately, I can communicate on the spot that being told how good I am doesn’t feed any particular hunger I’m suffering from. (“You’re easily impressed.” or “Actually Mr. Artist is getting great reviews from everyone in the room.” or “You and Mr. Artist must have lots to talk about, and I have someone waiting.”)
If I catch it later, after he’s had an opportunity to dig into my history, promise to cure all my problems, tell me his sad stories, and my feelings are complicated by my embarrassment with myself for being so gullible, I can still stop playing. This is really important, and something it took me a while to grasp. Just because I was one way a minute ago and maybe for the last few weeks or months, it doesn’t mean I can’t be another way now and for the rest of time.
If I’m not embarrassed about being inconsistent — or as they would say, untrustworthy, rude, uncaring, betraying, or a cold-hearted bitch — I can decide I don’t want to be involved any more. I don’t want to hear anything this man has to say. I don’t want him touching me. I don’t want to understand him. And I want him out of my environment.
This is me paying attention to the internal alert system. And me deciding what I do and don’t want in my life. My alarms are going off. I don’t have to justify anything to myself. And certainly not to him, though if he thinks I’m a good score for some reason, he will probably try to use whatever he’s already learned about me to convince me that I do. Or that I’m being foolish or afraid of living life to the fullest or whatever else he can come up to make me keep looking at myself rather than him.
But that’s the kind of thing that these days — after using my experience with the sociopath as an opportunity to get to know myself a lot better and to get comfortable with who I am — just sets those alarms clanging harder. Not because I’m absolutely finished working on myself, but because it’s none of anyone else’s business. And anyone who tries to step into that realm uninvited — or maybe invited, but I don’t like how they use the privilege — gets the iron curtain dropped on them. Hard boundary.
Annie, I heard what you said about your alarm system making you afraid. And if you’ll forgive the personal comment, it sounds like you’re still in a relatively early stage of your healing. Even though you’ve developed some internal rules or recognition of cues, you’re still really in the shocky phase when you’re trying to understand what hit you. And not really understanding it, because these cues that may or may not really clarify who they are and what they do, and you don’t feel very confident about dealing with the threat.
Later in the healing process, this gets a little simpler. What they do is hurt you. But that’s not all. Because this isn’t just about them. It’s also about you. In fact, the part about you is much more important. The part about you is that you don’t like it. Not liking it is much more powerful than being afraid of it. Not that being afraid of it is an unreasonable reaction. But it doesn’t include any recognition of you as a person with choices. Even if that choice is simply about judging. About not liking what they do, not liking who they are because they do it, and not wanting it in your life.
Thinking this way makes a huge difference in your brain chemistry. It doesn’t mean you’re going to do anything crazy, like trying to beat them at their own game. It just means that you’re starting to look at things as though you are your own person, and not just a plaything of fate.
What I’m describing here is an entry into the angry stage. Someone else recently wrote about the angry stage as when we get mad at something they’ve done and dump on them. That not the phase, that’s just getting angry at an event. The angry phase is when we start understanding that they are the problem. Not what they did. Not whatever we can figure out about their motivation or their tragic histories or anything else we might want to figure out about why this occurred. It doesn’t matter why. It doesn’t matter what they feel or who they are. What matters is that they are a problem, and they are causing pain in your life. This is about you and your problem.
One of the reasons we have to go through trying to learn about them and understand them is to give ourselves permission to suspend empathy, manners and whatever else in standing in out way of judging them, blaming them, and then doing whatever it takes to get rid of them and make sure that we’re better protected in the future.
The angry phase is a phase. It’s something we need to go through, in order to get to the rest of the healing process. As you’ll hear from other people, we go through cycles of anger. And that’s largely because when we first allow ourselves to become angry, we haven’t really figured out what a really terrible problem they were. We need to respond to our first understandings to loosen up the mechanism. And then other memories rise, and we understand more about what total pains in the ass they were. Eventually we clear it all out, because we’re responded appropriately to everything (or the important high points), and in responding we’ve been figuring out that we’re worth more than that, and that we can ensure in the future that our defensive awareness and skills are much better.
In the case of our complimentary stranger from the art gallery, suppose I had slept with him and shared information about my work, only to find out that he was an executive at a competing firm who was applying for a job with my company that would make him my boss’s boss. And if I didn’t stay on his good side, that I might find myself out of a job and blackballed as well. (I’m trying to imagine a worst-case scenario.)
The difference between being focused on him and the threat he presents and being focused on not liking the way I feel is significant in terms of how I would react. If I were scared, I probably start trying to manage him and manipulate my work environment to try to build insurance policies against whatever I feared he’d do to me. If I just didn’t want to play this game, I’d probably march into the human resources department and inform them that this guy targeted me at a social event, pretended he was interested in me to acquire corporate information, and threatened to get me fired if I didn’t cooperate.
Both are risky. And both require some dishonesty on my part. But only one of them reflects what I really want. To get rid of him. And yes, I’m prepared to risk my job to do it, because I don’t want to feel like this.
Could I be wrong about him? Sure. But I don’t care. Does this make me sound like a sociopath. Yes, it does. No empathy, no regrets. Do I feel okay about doing it? That’s a good question, but just the fact that I’m in this position at all, when I wasn’t before he showed up, brings me right back to the issue that set off the alarms in the first place. I don’t want this guy messing with my mind, my life, my body, my job, my money or anything else. From that perspective, the choice seems pretty simple. And once he’s gone, I can go back to being empathic with people who interest me or who I have reason to care about.
So as usual, one of my very long posts. I hope it makes sense.
Kathy
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stillstunned says:
I have been on the sidelines reading this blog and articles trying to understand and figure out how to handle my exposure to at S. I was knocked out of my chair when I read the posting about 3 months. The woman I met at 3 months took off and left me in a confused and lost state of mind. After of course getting as many things as possible that she could take from me.
3 months seems to be something that others have experienced as well.
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OxDrover says:
Welcome, Stillstunned,
“time” is different with different con jobs, there is the short con, 1-2 days, the longer con, a couple of weeks, then they go on up from there to a life time of conning, decades even before it becomes obvious to the victim.
Recovery is the same way, some people recover quickly, some in a “little while” and some of us take months or years to sort it all out. It takes as long as it takes.
Generally with a romantic or business con they “love bomb” the victim for a period of time, weeks or months, then the abuse starts and the “drama dance:” goes on until they leave or are kicked to the curb.
Sorry ou are here, but glad that you found this place of knowledge and healing. Stick around and read and learn. Knowledge helps us get our power back. God bless.
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style1 says:
he has crossed my mind today.. because last year at this time..we were together and I recalled him telling me that two of his wives were violent, one even came after him with a knife and I asked him what provoked them and he told me that he didn’t know….
then after I punch him once in the shoulder in total frustration during and argument he is 6’1” and I’m 5’3″ 115 pounds.. he began calling me violent and I have never been called that in my whole life.. The way that he treated me, infiltrated my life, actually negated me and what I might want in his manipulation and contrived emotions… filled me with frustration….
I wonder did he do this to all the women in his life.. then he acts like he has no idea why they behaved that way…
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robxsykobabe says:
I had that womens intuition…you all know that feeling you get when you KNOW something is not right? Well, I had never looked at his texts before, although this day I did. I found a text NOT sent to me saying “I cant stop thinking about your kisses” and another sent to someone saying “goodmorning, Im thinking about you”. I sent a reply back to the texts saying “goodmorning” and received one in return, again saying ‘goodmorning, how are you?”
I confronted him with what I saw on his phone and he, of course, tried telling me the texts were SUPPOSED TO go to me, but must not have made it! The name that they were sent to though was “Gus”. Well, needless to say, he became irate with me saying he wasn’t gonna be in a relationship with someone who couldnt trust him and he packed his things from my house and left!
He SWORE up and down that the text was sent to me originally, however, he is too stupid to know that I sent a reply to whomever (Gus) they were to and got a reply.
That was about a year ago and it still makes my stomache turn.
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Matt says:
robxsykobabe:
Women’s intuition, men’s intuition — we all should learn to trust that gut feeling that we KNOW they are cheating.
The first rule I adopted after my relationship with the S was that I would never tolerate texting again. You can text me during the day when you know I’m probably in a meeting. You can text me if you’re running 10 minutes late and you’re about to get on the subway to get here. After that, I don’t want to know squat about texting. As I learned the hard way with the S, texting gives S’s the perfect opportunity to cheat on you — I was stupid enough to believe that texting is a form of communicating. It isn’t. Quite simply, it boils down to common sense. The amount of time it takes to type in a long message/diatribe/whatever, could instead be spent talking to me. And if you can’t dial the phone and talk to me, but can find the time to text back and forth, then you’re obviously doing something you don’t want me to know about.
So, never settle for texts outside of the two circumstances I mentioned above. If you’re getting bombarded with texts, I can guarantee that the person texting you is up to no good.
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ErinBrock says:
Matt:
I have ‘delayed’ getting into the texting world! I cancelled the kids texting too!
I WANT and insist on the phone calls…..
I HATE it when someone is texting back and forth in my presence…..I speak up!
I think it’s an unneccesary way to ‘multi task’….or hide from reality.
I have ignored the texting on purpose…..I don’t want to be that available to my clients either……
So ….my rule is NO Texts!
I block em.
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pollyannanomore says:
Kathleen that was a pretty stupendous and incredible piece of writing there – I read the whole thing and really GOT IT. It’s about them at first but mostly it’s about us. I understand – I had wounds there long before he came along that I was plastering with hope and faith – he saw the wounds and saw a big opportunity.
Had I only taken the time to clean out the wounds and let them heal, he never would have made it over my threshold. I haven’t had the courage to depend on my intuition – to listen to it and honor what it tells me and in reality it is the only alarm system I will ever have so I was dumb not to have developed it prior to meeting him.
Like many others, I had the illusion that everyone is basically good. I now know that is just not true and whilst it is a disappointment to realise it, it will serve me better to live in reality rather than an illusory world that doesn’t exist. I will apply the Rule of Threes in the future with people I don’t get automatic alarms with = one mistake is excusable, two means a serious problem and three means you’re gone – that applies to lies, broken promises or arrangements, moodiness without explanation and a whole host of other unacceptable behaviours.
I agree with you we are far too often polite and ‘nice’ instead of safe and respected. I have started to say ‘no’ if I am uncomfortable with something. I have started to refuse things I don’t want. In doing so I am being authentic rather than who I think people might want me to be … so rather than being rude it honors my own spirit and the spirits of those I interact with.
Excellent post too! I can relate to those behaviours = they were so painful each time they occured.
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