After the sociopath is gone: Good-bye lie. Welcome truth.
I wrote the following nine months after the p formerly in my life was arrested. I was asked on another thread, was there a moment you ‘knew’? Knew that you would be okay. Knew it was okay to let him go.
Yes and no. In those first heady days of freedom, every moment was filled with knowing I was okay. And every moment was filled with the fear I would never get through the pain to find the light of love within me. I had to make a choice. Had to decide — what do I want more of. Lies and deciet. Truth and harmony.
I wanted to share this piece with you because it speaks to the power of one word to release us from fearing life without them so that we can surrender and fall in love with life within us.
As night settled into its soggy wet blanket, the pooch and I went for a walk. The rain beat a sibilant hiss upon the shiny black road, the streetlights glowed iridescently, casting golden orbs of light, punctuating holes into the dark shadows of the night. I was wrapped in the misty blanket of a rainy evening, my skin moistened by the water-laden air, my breath a frosty vapor leading me silently forward. The pooch pranced happily by my side, her tail a constant metronome displaying the tempo of her happiness as we journeyed forth into the dark.
It was a mystical, magical evening. A night for quiet thoughts that drifted through my mind as effortlessly as the raindrops falling one-by-one from the pearl clad branches all around me.
I thought of love found and love lost and moving on. Of new relationships and old. New found love and love that never fulfills its promise of growing old beside me. Of promises made and promises broken. Journeys taken and voyages lost because the voyageur could not see by the light of the moon and lost his way among the stars. And I thought of my brother to whom I had never said good-bye and the P to whom good-bye was just another word for the door is always open until I say so.
For such a little word, good-bye carries a mighty wallop.
Good-bye can mean, see you in a while, or see you in a year. It can carry us into the night on the hope of tomorrow or it can sweep all hope away as we look back and see there will never be a next time, another day, or a new tomorrow.
For those who have journeyed into the valley of the S or P or N, good-bye is a word fraught with the fear that once spoken it can never be returned. It lays frozen upon our tongues, our minds numb in the fear it might slide out on a breath of air and change our lives forever. Terrified we might slip, we pack our hopes and dreams into that one little word and stuff our pride and dignity into the cracks of our pain seeping in beneath the door held fast against our fear that he will leave before tomorrow ever dawns. And all the while, we search for the perfect last words that will either make it all right or make him hear us, just this once, before he slithers off into the dark from whence he came.
And as we flounder in the depths of empty words and promises, we pray that there will never be a time to say good-bye but rather, welcome back, I’ve missed you. Spiraling into the darkness of the painfully long good-bye they began when they said, hello, we silently hold onto the word that will set us free and stumble through the words of begging them to please not say it.
But in the land of lies, the door we thought we held so firmly closed is always open, no matter how hard we push against it. Eventually, when we have worn ourselves out upon the welcome mat of our desire to be all they will ever need, we must face the reality that we will never have the chance to say our fond farewells. They have already left. Gone in search of new tomorrows. Of some other happily ever after which we never saw coming.
In their passing, we are left holding the shreds of our battered hearts in the basket of our dreams, frozen in time. Alone, forlorn, we whisper, good-bye, into the empty space that lays before us, hoping they will hear the soft promise of our hopes they will find out there, that which they could never find in us. We peer into the darkness of the lengthening shadows, our tears puddling around our feet, forming a river into which we fall, in fear of drowning as we cry out for one last chance to say good-bye.
Good-bye. It’s such a little word but it keeps us stuck on the dream of wanting them back so that we can have the last word that will close forever the door to our hearts they so easily open.
In the end, the best good-bye is the quiet hello we whisper within our hearts as we pick at the scab of our wounds that never seem to heal as long as they keep walking through the door to our dreams. Good-bye lies. Hello truth. Welcome back to me.
In our good-byes that are never spoken we will never find the key that will unlock the secret door to their understanding. It resides somewhere in the dark, beyond the edges of the light. But, beneath the scabby, jagged-edge scar of our disbelief, new skin is forming with our welcome home. If we leave it alone long enough to heal from the inside out, we will understand that he could never hear our good-bye. He could never cherish our hearts because he was always and forever, a figment of our imaginations. He was never true.
In our awakening to the light of a new tomorrow without him we discover, it was only the darkness of being without him we feared. And without him, we have nothing to fear.
In seeing the gift of his departure in the light of a new day dawning, we lift our heads and see, the sun is shining. As it beckons, we step into the light of finally knowing, the only way to say good- bye to what never was, is to accept it never will be.
written by M.L. Gallagher • Permalink •
BlackDeer says:
Beautiful. Thank you.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 11:24pm
pollyannanomore says:
What a piece of writing. Incredible. And so very true. They made us feel them saying goodbye would mean instant death, when in fact, the opposite was true – their saying goodbye is the beginning of life for us even if we don’t feel it and can’t quite believe it at the time
Thankyou!
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 11:51pm
heavenbound says:
“In our awakening to the light of a new tomorrow without him we discover, it was only the darkness of being without him we feared. And without him, we have nothing to fear.” I struggled with this every time he left but the time before he left last, I discovered that without him there was nothing to fear. When he came back that time I prayed for the Lord to make him quit me since I clearly couldn’t put him out and keep him out. I knew God did not want me to be tied up constantly with things not of Him. My prayers were answered, he stayed about three weeks that time and left me! At first I thought how dare him act like he had to quit me after everything he has done, then I realized it was how it had to be. I hadn’t been able to end it and stick to it for fear which I could not understand I had never been this way with anyone before. I have since researched because someone told me he was a psychopath. I was so surprised it even explained the way he used words out of context! I also ran into ambient abuse and as I read I knew that was what had happened to me. My mom had often said I wasn’t myself anymore. I didn’t used to be afraid of doing and the things I had done he had taken over and he didn’t do them as well as I had. Sorry, my point was this article really does say it. “In seeing the gift of his departure in the light of a new day dawnng, we lift our heads and see, the sun is shining.”!!
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 11:56pm
skylar says:
OMG, Louise, you just about killed me with that one. You brought all my PTSD back. are you sure you aren’t a P?
Seriously, you are gifted in the art of zooming in on exactly what we are feeling. Goodbye feels like cutting off an arm.
Before I read this I had finished telling an acquaintance that I was not emotional over my xP and that I hadn’t even been in love with him for years. And right after that I was reading a very nice email from a guy that makes me feel so great when I think about his kisses. But now. I feel like crap again.
I can’t bear to say goodbye to the sadistic, evil, lying, sack of shit that doesn’t deserve the air he breathes. He revels in the thought of other’s pain. He wants death and destruction to rule the earth. There is no doubt in my mind about this. But goodbye means: no hope. Not for me and not for the human race. If they can’t be fixed and they are spreading there’s no hope.
Now I have to rethink how far I’ve come in my healing. Not as far as I had thought.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:02am
shabbychic says:
Beautifully written, lyrical.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:03am
skylar says:
Now I have to go back to praying the rosary and several other prayers to St. Michael again.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:05am
M.L. Gallagher says:
Thank you everyone — writing it out has been my salvation. I find myself again every time I put on paper (or the screen) the words that express my pain, confusion and hope and belief that I am free of him when I celebrate all that is wondrous in me.
Skylar — the pain this triggered. Move into it. Embrace it. Welcome it. Acknowledge and know — you do not have to cling to it when you set it free.
You have come a long way in your healing.
Six+ years out — I know my healing is a constant journey of love. Of cherishing all that is miraculous and wondrous in my life today, all that is magnificent about me. It is not measured against what I experienced with him. It is not measured against that relationship. It is felt in every fibre of my being and loving all of me — even those parts that want to deny I felt anything at all for him.
Love yourself for having the courage to embrace all of you. Love yourself for having the courage to let yourself feel what you feel — and the courage to let it flow.
You’re okay Skylar. Triggers are the gift. When we pull them, we set ourselves free.
Hugs to everyone.
Louise
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 12:16am
pilgrimage says:
Wonderful words-painful and true. Truth is what I need to hear because I am now finding out what this is all about and the man I was with and in love with for four yrs wasn’t real. He left three weeks ago and I feel crazy, lost, lonely and very, very sad. I am so glad I found this site-looks like I will be hanging out here alot.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:05am
persephone7 says:
Louise – I thought the one word would be ‘No’ but ‘Goodbye’
encompasses the hardest part to face. Coming here before bed and reading your beautiful passage was like an answer to some prayer
I didn’t even know how to say. Thank you so much, especially tonight.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:07am
skylar says:
Pilgrimage,
I like your screen name.
Thank God you man left you. so many of us have to run for our lives. Please, if he comes back BE BORING. that is the one thing they can’t stand. Boring. No emotions, like a plain gray rock. Act like you just have no emotions about anything.
Please come as often as you need to. Post about your life and we will validate your feelings because, as you know, we have all experienced it. No other people can understand it. Only those who have experienced it and ALSO KNOW what they experienced, can understand.
I was trying to find a used tripod to buy on craigslist and found one. The woman who sold it to me, was just like us. She had been with a man for 5 years. Now she is happily married but, she said she was in therapy for soooo many years. And her mom was the most sinister abuser of all. We/You will discover our real selves through this hell. (hugs)
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:13am
ThornBud says:
From the first coversation after we met on internet, he insisted: Never say Goodbye. Say CIAO, Nighty, whatever – but never say goodbye.
Are they such frightened of being left with GOODBYE?
I think they KNOW it will come a time they will hear it, and we will MEAN IT.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:30am
ThornBud says:
Louise, u wrote it beautiful and so touching. I did not cry reading it, there was just a sadly smile and kind of grieving . Reading what u wrote made me feel like little girl listening some sad tale for the first time. Girl who did not get used that not all tales end with”happilly after ever”.
Thank u!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:36am
pilgrimage says:
Thank you skylar and no worries about the “boring” part as I am sures thats one of the main reasons he left. I have a feeling his relationship tolerance is about four years and its time to move on. And you are right about others not understanding this unless they have been through it. It’s still so bizzare and painful I dont even have the words to try to explain it if I could. Thank you again for the welcome:)
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 1:40am
Easy says:
If you Love someone , set them Free!
If they do not return , Hunt them down and Kill them!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 4:04am
blueskies says:
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 8:38am
OxDrover says:
Thank you, Louise, so beautifully put—in my imagination, I could see you walking along that road with your dog, so wonderfully described.
In so many ways, so many of us have been along that same road, I think it is the path that goes toward Healing, and until we set our feet there, over the rough stones, into the darkness, and unlike the biblical story of Lot’s wife, we look forward, not backward in longing, do we progress, rather than turn to a “pillar of salt” and become stationary. We must learn to say that word–goodbye—and I will add “good riddance” as well.
Blue, your last post (quote) “The right kind of Goodbye is beautiful! x and its not about no hope, but the beginning of real hope:)x” is so right on, we are saying “goodbye” to pain, to lies, and HELLO TRUTH!
Thank you, again, Louise for sharing your wonderful articles with the rest of us. (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 10:10am
skylar says:
Oxy thanks for that metaphor about pillars of salt. I really like that and I will remember it.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 10:28am
Sarasims says:
Dear Louise, that was absolutely beautiful and touching! They have a way (their actions) of making us all feel exactly the same inside, don’t they? The fears, the pain, the anxiety, the longing…..
In the beginning the SP told me “never say good-bye, that good-bye was so final, like the end.” So we never said good bye on a phone conversation, text, email, or in person…..only “see ya”. In the end, there was never a good-bye, only the feelings you so eloquently describe above….when he suddenly and hatefully discarded me to the curb like a piece of used up trash.
He also told me that once done wrong by someone, he would hate them forever. No second chances! I have learned that his idea of “being done wrong” was “being found out”….. a person becoming smart to his game. That is what happened to me. I became smart to his game and thus the bad guy….I will forever be “hated” by him. I guess God does work in mysterious ways?
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:17am
henry says:
gallagher – What a beautiful post on such a painful thing as saying goodbye. Knowing that ‘good bye’ is the last thing you want to say but the only option we have in saving our lives. I will never forget that confusion and feeling of loss and complete failure, wasn’t sure if I was saying goodbye to the love of my life or not, I just new the nitemare had to end.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 2:47pm
henry says:
I was not prepared for that feeling of loss, I couldnt understand why it lingered so long, I guess I lost the lie. You would think a lie would be easy to accept and get over.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 3:03pm
luv716 says:
beautiful piece, I can relate 100%
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 3:58pm
luv716 says:
No one understand how hard it is to say good-bye unless they have been involved with an S I told my friend I feel like he will be apart of me for the rest of my life and she just couldn’t understand what I was saying Its like he burned his soul into my heart. God when I read this an the section an the part that states”we pray that there will never be a time to say good-bye but rather, welcome back, I’ve missed you.”Thats how I feel even after all the drama I feel this in my heart. Sad lonely broken hearted all wrap up in one!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 4:11pm
skylar says:
maybe they feel this way to us because it feels like part of our perpetual childhood is being taken away? he’s like a muse or a genie. But one misstep and the genie becomes angry.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 4:15pm
henry says:
luv716 – I do relate with how you feel, however this will pass in time. I am at 18 months no contact and each day I feel less and less under that fog. I think the reason a sociopath leaves this feeling of loss in us is more about us than them. They truly are a different kind of human. I was conned and exploited with lies’, it never was real, I was just a convient option for him at the time. Being a nice person is not as safe as I thought it was. I lost that belief that all people are good deep down..they are not. I wont let him remain in my heart forever – I promise myself that.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 5:09pm
henry says:
Loss – been pondering on that this afternoon. What did we lose? Alot, now that I think of it. It changed the way we look at life. It changed our idea of love and romance. It changed the way we look at friendships. We cant look at life the same ever again. So the loss we feel is realizing how much of our past was stolen and wasted and looking into the future with a whole different set of rules. And this is good in a painful way.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 6:21pm
witsend says:
skylar,
I have a thought, and I might be way off here but it is something to think about.
Analogies are sometimes a great tool for healing. They sometimes can help us to “see” things that we couldn’t possibly see without the comparison.
I have heard you compare your X/S several times to a “baby” (so to speak) in a diaper. Great analogy. To picture an S in your head behaving like a small child.
I have also read that you have said your relationship was more of a mother/son relationship than a relationship of adult lovers….
In reading this article today about saying goddbye I had a thought…..
In my life time I have had much difficulties with saying goodbyes. Even when I should have said goodbye, I stayed way to long in the relationships before I was able to walk away. When people that I loved died, I could never let them go. There was sometimes that feeling of “unfinished business”.
I struggled.
BUT never, ever have I struggled with a goodbye as I will struggle with my son. And the reason is of course because he is my son…But also that picture of him forever engrained in my head of him as my child. My sweet little boy. How do you ever let that go? I am trying to process this. Getting rid of the picture of him in my head as the sweet little boy.
Maybe your thought process of your X/P has to change as far as the diaper analogy. Maybe you can’t think of it anymore as you mothering him in your relationship.
Maybe you can never let him go completely if you don’t let this picture “in your head go”. Any more than I would be able to.
something to think about….
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:06pm
slimone says:
Hi Henry,
What you say makes a lot of sense to me. We did lose some significant stuff. How we look at love and life. Those beliefs are deeply held and dear to most people. And when they get shattered it is like there is nothing to hold on to. And we feel lost.
This may sound like I am being really hard on myself, but for me much of what I believed about ‘love’ and ‘life’ has turned out to be hooey.
I don’t know about you but I looked at love and life from a place of childhood fantasy, of longing, of hoping for rescue and relief. The perfect love saving me from my fractured and wounded self, etc…
No Mr. Knight in Shining Armor? WTF?! Love doesn’t conquer all? POOP! All people aren’t ‘good’ deep down inside. For reals? The answer is inside me, not him? Great! Looking good isn’t going to land me happiness? Geez!
I have been the central tragiromantic character in my own love story for as long as I can remember. And finding just the right man to fulfill me, and give me some ‘importance’ in life has been my ace-in-the-hole.
Golf game over.
*Now* these beliefs are not true for me. I don’t know exactly what is ‘true’ for me. I sorta feel like I don’t want to believe in anything. Not in a cynical sort of way. But in the way of: I want to respond to what IS, not to what I ‘believe’ in. I want to act out of my own knowing and beingness. Weird words, I know. I just don’t know how else to put it. What I don’t want is to act out of some old worn out script that requires everyone around me get their ‘lines’ correct, so I can start to be happy and fulfilled.
To be spontaneously aware and responsive to each moment. Not coming from a pattern of held belief. That is what I would like to experience. I don’t think it will make my life all rainbows and lollypops. But it will be a life lived with awareness, and I hope will support the possibility of less suffering, and more meaning.
I ‘think’ my romantic and life beliefs/fantasies are what made the unreality of the badman so appealing. They were mirrored back to me and I swooned at my own reflection. It was like my own weird ego-trip was wrapped up tight in his spider web, and he sucked the juice out of it.
However, what he got….what I ‘lost’ wasn’t real. Not for me. It was something I could have lost a lot sooner, and been the better for it.
I don’t ever want to live in that place of self-deception again. I want to be awake, to ME, to life, to what is.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:22pm
lostingrief says:
well said, henry.
good in a painful way.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:28pm
skylar says:
witsend,
you are right. It’s much harder to let go of a baby than a lover. Because the narcissist is and always will be an emotional child, that is how I see him. But now I’ve got a different picture: a mythological creature. It’s funny that others are posting about the mythological creature now too.
I’m not sure how much easier it’s going to be to let go of a mythological creature than a baby. I think it’s getting better now, though. Talking to him gives me such a disgusting feeling and I’m getting to the point where that is all I remember when I hang up the phone.
I know that most people here at LF don’t encourage the “replacement” theory, as the answer, but I think that after becoming informed about this disorder, the next most helpful step is to make new friends and that includes physical intimacy. Even if it just means kissing. Since I’ve moved on the nightmares have stopped. Before that, they never stopped, every night was filled with his face and presence. Now, I have all kinds of other dreams. Just getting affection from someone else is very healing.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:30pm
shabbychic says:
henry, your thoughts about loss are very insightful… “realizing how much of our past was stolen and wasted…” Yes, I think I am grieving over how I wasted my life because I was looking through rose colored glasses.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:34pm
henry says:
slimone – We are on the same page…you get exactly what I am saying….down to a T.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:35pm
henry says:
shabby we didnt know a different way then. I believe surviving our past and learning the truth will set us on a whole new realm. We know alot more than most people will ever know – we have been vaccinated~!
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 7:43pm
kelban says:
Thank you,
I think the lack of “good-bye” was a killer. Just more to prove I meant nothing to him. It is nice to know I am not the only one who feels this way.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 8:53pm
pollyannanomore says:
I have to comment on this goodbye talk.
After I separated from the LIE (2 yrs ago … I was devastated and a mess which left the door open for him to walk back in after a yr of leaving me on my own), I met a man online in the UK who I believe was a P also. I must have been alert to it by then because I remember thinking ’something isn’t right here’.
He flipped out one day when I typed Goodbye. I asked what was wrong with it. He said ‘It is too final – it means that is it forever and you will never come back. So say see ya later instead. Or ciao. Or catch you later but never say goodbye until you mean it.’
I had never heard of this association before so it confused the heck out of me. I did end up saying a very definite goodbye a few weeks later when he tried pressuring me for cam sex (Ha! As if! I am a lights out gal at the best of times – there is no way I want a digital record of that non spectator sport floating around the web for posterity!!) It struck me as really strange though – the whole association of goodbye meaning forever.
I was reading a book entitled ‘Live the life you love and stop just getting by’ and read the following quote (at least I THINK it came from this book! Yes it did
“When considering whether or not you will regret or not regret something, don’t bother considering whether other people will approve or not. You only need to worry about one opinion – YIFY> Yourself in Five Years. If you say yes – what will yourself in five years say? Will you be happy about the decision or kicking your own backside?”
It really struck me – that question. I think if I were asked it back then I would perhaps have cut my losses a little earlier. A LOT earlier had I known how long it would take to get out. But maybe I would have made excuses for his behaviour. Maybe I would have betted on potential rather than the truth I could see in front of me. Maybe I would have still had my rose coloured glasses on. This is an innoculation I could have done without. I have a sensitive constitution at the best of times and this just knocked the hell out of me after a lifetime of others kicking my soul around. I was well primed for his arrival and devouring of me.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 9:21pm
shabbychic says:
polly, I have also read similar concepts to the YIFY, it’s a great idea, I’m glad you brought it up – because I had forgotten about it. I was always trying to just get through each day, not really looking at myself and what I was doing… or what my goals were.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 9:54pm
ann1961 says:
This is a beautifully written, gut-wrenchingly true article.
Not long ago I discovered Lovefraud, and I am astounded every single day when I read the articles on here. I have been living in this 30 year hell (which is ending in divorce, finally) with a Narcissistic S husband. I have always felt so utterly ALONE, like NO ONE could possibly understand what I am going through, there is no one to talk to, no one who will understand, this is so abnormal, what is wrong with me, what is happening, etc etc etc. Then I found Lovefraud, and this article, as well as SO many others, explain EXACTLY what I am feeling and have gone through, all these people who are blogging have gone through the same horrible feelings, everyone is sharing and learning, and I am so thankful for this site and for all these outstanding articles and people who have survived and are reaching out to each other. It is astonishing to me how many people have been through all these things, I thought I was alone, and I am not. Thank you for this article, it just hits home and says what I have never been able to put into words.
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Thursday, 22 October 2009 @ 11:31pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
First, thank you, Louise, for a beautiful and inspiring post.
Like some of us, for me, goodbye was not clearly about lies and truth. It was about how will I survive without him? He was a leach, and a misery to deal with. But part of me “believed” this was a great love relationship. Even while part of me knew that I was being used and abused. (And of course, he was no help in sorting it out. He made an art form of confusing answers to direct questions.)
Yesterday, looking for a lost file, I stumbled on the history of our relationship I wrote in book form. There was a section in it about the early period, when I talked about feeling like I was different when I was with him. Usually my thinking was dominated by concern for other people’s feelings. But with him, I became incisive and logical, able to see into the future and build clear plans. I also became more adventurous, less bogged down in responsibilities. I felt as though the lights came on in a formerly dark part of my brain.
And I think that this was part of my addiction to him — that he made me feel like I had characteristics that I was formerly weak in. It was exhilarating. I felt like we were two super-people. Of course, there was the other side of the relationship. When I acted or felt in my more typical fashion — the girly girl who loved her Prince Charming — he rejected me and my feelings with contempt. Or if I tried to use the same mentality that he did to arrange our relationship to suit me, instead of just rolling over when he rearranged my life to suit himself, he punished me. So it was all very confusing and painful.
But for a person who always positioned herself as the acquiescent dependent in relationships (even though I was usually paying the bills and managing all the practical details for my husbands and partners), this illumination of the dark side of my brain, however occasional and fleeting, was something that was intoxicating and seemingly something I could only do when he gave me a certain type of attention. Without that attention, I was not only the way I had been before — bogged down in emotional and other types of commitments, desperate for acknowledgment and acceptance — but I was also disoriented about this “new” me and whether it was bad, good or even “allowed.”
In other words, I was unmoored. And he became my anchor, who only showed up to ground me when he happened to be in the mood, or when I could give him something fabulous enough to earn a little bit of positive attention.
I’ve always been attracted to larger-than-life characters. I’ve also played around with the idea that, if I appreciated their characteristics, I must also have those characteristics buried somewhere inside me. Otherwise, how could I recognize them? So somewhere in me, I was funny, tough-minded, concerned about my own interests before anyone else’s, able to make big plans and carry them out, etc. I thought that, but I never seemed to find my partners’ characteristics contagious.
What I did catch from the ex sociopath was his dark emotional spectrum. The resentment, the anger, the depression, the self-hatred, the inability to climb out of that hole (unless I was willing to use harder drugs than overwork, chocolate and shopping). His techniques for avoiding that hole were out of the question. I wasn’t going to recruit new sex partners weekly. Or find someone to beat up to make myself feel like less of a failure. Or going around telling self-aggrandizing stories to prey on the credulity of fools who would believe them. Or amuse myself by seeing what I could rip off, or who I could cheat, or whether I could really mess with someone’s head.
It was out of the question, because what he left me with was the knowledge that I wasn’t a super-person. In fact, I was less than I thought I was before I met him. My self-esteem had just drained away, like someone had opened a spiget in my head. I was hopeless, useless. It was like I was paying for that brief illumination on the dark side of my brain with a brown-out across the whole thing.
Saying goodbye to him meant saying good-bye to that stubborn hope that had endured for five miserable years that that the magic could happen again. That we would connect as two larger-than-life people and walk the earth together as masters of the universe. And he encouraged that hopeful grandiosity with shared fantasies of how we would live someday.
I should be embarrassed to admit all this. And I would have been a couple of years ago. But now — except for some regrets about dreadful things I did in the thrall of these dreams — it just looks sort of cute. Because miserable as most of it was, and rotten a surrogate parent as he was, I regard it now as the toddler stage of growing up, at least on that dark side of my character. I call it dark, but it really was just unilluminated, unused. I wasn’t tough-minded. I wasn’t self-interested in any conscious way. I certainly wasn’t very funny, except for the ability to laugh at myself because I was such a klutz. No irony. No cynicism. No ability to judge the quality of what was going on around me, except whether it gave me the acceptance and emotional safety I needed.
So for me, saying goodbye to this man has been a long process of developing that side of me, so I don’t need him or anyone like him ever again. Until fairly recently (and it’s been more than five years since he’s gone), I would have attacks of missing him desperately. And then I realized that those attacks always happened when I was stressed and in over my head with responsibilities. I missed having someone stronger and smarter than me to cut through the self-created chaos in my life. Figuring that out helped a lot.
Now when he comes to mind, I see if there’s some bit of wisdom I’m looking for (because he did say some very smart things), or if it’s just a visitation from the last person I loved. Because I haven’t exercised that capacity in a romantic sense since him. And I think sometimes that mental muscle just flexes to let me know it’s still there and that I still have the capacity for intimacy. But not with him, not anymore. I find myself saying to the air, “I don’t need you anymore.”
And increasingly, that’s true. Earlier this month, it was my birthday, 11 years since I met him, 5 1/2 years since I got him out of my life. When I met him I was a super-nice, very usable woman drowning in responsibilities to take care of everyone in my world. When I threw him out, I was drained and suicidal, no longer even able to take care of myself. Now, well now, I’m changed beyond recognition.
Yesterday, one of my clients said, “We want you to do this thing.” And I responded, “I don’t work that way. It will cost you four time more to do what you’re suggesting, but you’ll get something a lot better.” They said, “No we want you to do it the way we’re asking.” I said, “Sorry, I don’t work like that.” Today, they told me “Do it your way.”
Never would have happened before. Just the thought of it would have made me a quivering mass of “Oh, no, what will they think of me? They won’t like me anymore.” Did I thank the ex-S? Nah. It was in me all the time. I just had to go through all that misery with him, and the fascinating work of getting over him, to turn the lights on myself. Not to make me a super-person, just to make me whole, something I never was before.
For me, that’s when I say goodbye. That’s when I think I don’t need him anymore.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:06am
skylar says:
Kathleen,
I love how you admit to your inner-P. I think you are a super-person, just not a P because you feel empathy.
I’m the same way, but I think part of it is adrenalin addiction.
Today and yesterday I had chocolate. It makes me feel euphoric. But it doesn’t change reality, once I come down I still have to face my life.
Please continue to inspire us with your inspirations. I want to grow up.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:20am
lostnsad says:
Heavenbound,
You write of him needing to leave you… I used to wish for that everyday… wish I’d wake up and he’d be gone — because I couldn’t do it or at least do it for long… I’d break-up or throw him out only to bring him back… but 2 weeks ago he left…(I have nothing left for him to take) and I haven’t spoken to him…. But I’m still fighting my need of him…
Kathleen,
OMG… some of the things you write about like the things you did… the things I did to “please” him make me sick…
Then you said this: “When I met him I was a super-nice, very usable woman drowning in responsibilities to take care of everyone in my world. When I threw him out, I was drained and suicidal, no longer even able to take care of myself.”
That is me… but it hasn’t been 5 years it’s been 2 weeks and I feel totally worthless and I have lost everything in my life. How did you pull through? How did you rebuild? I just want to disappear and fade away…
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:53am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Heavenbound,
You wrote “I feel totally worthless and I have lost everything in my life. How did you pull through? How did you rebuild? I just want to disappear and fade away…”
If you’re only two weeks into this, the first big challenge is to understand what happened (that you were targeted by a predator) and then to acknowledge your feelings and your right to feel that way.
That doesn’t happen overnight. The earliest part of recovery is the worst, and that’s where you are right now. So if you feel like total crap — in pain, hating yourself, unable to figure out the meaning of any of it, depressed, immobilized, unable to stop thinking about it — that’s normal for this stage. This person has been messing with your life, and more importantly, your head.
So maybe, it might help to understand that you’re in process. And where you are right now is part of a big learning that will leave you stronger, more aware, more able, mentally healthier, more joyous and creative than you’ve ever been in your life. It’s a path and you’re at the beginning of it. But you’re taking steps. You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t want to heal and take back your life.
If you want my perspective on healing, click on my name on the column on the left hand side of this page, and you’ll see the articles I’ve written about the path. Reading the first few might be helpful to you now, just to get some perspective on what you’re going through.
But there are lots of great articles here. Wander around the archive. Read whatever looks interesting, and don’t bother with all the comments below right now.
And just talk with us. Tell your story. Talk about how you feel, and what’s going on in your life now. Don’t worry about what you sound like, or whether you should be different than you are. We all go through the same stuff. There are people here who are at every stage of healing. You’ll get support and, if you want it, advice. This is a fantastic community, and we’re all about one thing. Getting through this recovery process and taking our lives back.
Congratulations on his being gone. Whether you threw him out or he walked away. It’s a really good thing. And now you’re going to start getting better.
A big hug –
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:26am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oh sorry, I meant that to be for lostnsad.
And honey, that’s a very blue name you gave yourself. What are you going to call yourself when you’re getting better? I’ve always kind of wished I’d called myself something like fallingup. If you wanted it, I’d give that name to you.
And another hug –
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:30am
heavenbound says:
Lostnsad,
I understand. Before I started researching I thought I was the only one that must be going through such craziness, how do you want someone out of your life so much and yet think you can’t live without them? It’s their crazy making. When he first left I was actually terrified and so very hurt. I had nothing left for him to take either. For years while with him I didn’t think I’d be able to get through it. It does get easier. Six months ago I didn’t know I’d be able to say that. I still have ups and downs but it gets better and better every day. Hang in there No contact really does help the healing process. We have a child together so I do have to have some contact which he tries to use to bait me with his crazy making. But the rest of the time is no contact, and it’s great. I struggled with it real bad at first, but I finally had to bite my tongue and get busy with something to keep from loosing the ounce of pride I had left. He acted like he was too good for me. Of course in his mind I guess he was, I was worthless to him finally. It hurts and is so… I know but it gets better, it really does. Happiness is easier when you don’t have someone like this in your life or at least your daily life. Have you researched ambient abuse? If I remember right it helped explain why and how the victim can feel and act. The more I understood the easier it was to let him and the pain go.
I’m afraid I don’t qualify to give too much advice being as I’m generally a big screw up, but I do understand and YOU are NOT worthless they are just really good at making us feel that way. Open yourself to the possibility that you may be lost so very much in your life but just maybe the best is yet to come!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:52am
pollyannanomore says:
Kathleen … what an incredible response – I am stunned at the level of self awareness you demonstrate and your unstinting sharing of your shames and celebrations. So many things you described resonated with me – feeling stronger around him even though that support was only present in tiny doses in the beginning and even though I was taking care of most things myself. I have caught his dark emotional contagion as well and it is so not me. I felt like just crawling into a hole today when I realised my mother would rather have me stay with this man because it suits her agenda to have me live nearby and she thinks why should my life be better than her’s? I have nobody at all. I messed everything up despite all my good intentions and the love I put into everything I did. I feel gutted.
Lostnsad – you will be ok now you have found this place. These people know what they are talking about and understand the craziness you have been through.
I so understand just wanting to fade away and disappear. I am so ashamed that I got it so wrong. I just want to run and hide for a long long time. You may think you are not far down the track but you are further than me. I am stuck with him still in the house – he won’t leave. We have been separated for 2 yrs and he is dragging out the legalities of splitting what little property is left. We also have six pets together that he refuses to discuss and sort out. I have lost over ten yrs to this man and he has broken my heart worse than anyone else in my life. I understand all the psych concepts for what happened in this relationship but it won’t make my eyes stop crying or my heart stop hurting. Read lots and learn all you can – it does help to make some sense of it all. I was much more upset when I couldn’t make sense of it and didn’t know about personality disorders.
Heavenbound – you are NOT a screw up. Don’t call yourself that. You’re a good person to offer such support to someone new and to open your heart in empathy with someone else in pain.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 3:10am
pollyannanomore says:
Shabbychic – I so relate to that … just getting through each day. I didn’t realise years and a whole decade were being lost int he day by day. The pain is much worse now realising just how much time has been lost – I wish someone had said something to me about self in five years though. Even if I hadn’t listened, it sure would have been nice to know someone cared and saw what I was living through.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 3:13am
blueskies says:
I know u guys probably think I am on ‘e’ the way I am carrying on lately (I have major personal joy issues at the moment, I hope you can forgive my fluffyness:)xx but I just wanted to say something about how PHENOMINAL all of you LF writers and posters are.
From those who are just coming here in the foetal position, as I was when I got here, to those straightening up and beginning to stand tall, you are the most amazing collection of human beings I can imagine, even if you don’t realise it, there is something in you that CANNOT be broken, something that made you hold on to you, even if it felt like it was by a hairs breath, you have endured disgusting and sustained attacks on yourselves, your souls and hearts, the like of which (thankfully) the majority of the population have no clue about, yet you still had and have that solid unfathomable strength within you… to not give up…to survive. Every last one of you. I am so proud of LF and the people here. I can’t thank Donna enough for creating this wonderful gathering space☺xxxxxxx
Now you understand
Just why my head’s not bowed.
I don’t shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing
It ought to make you proud.
I say,
It’s in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
The palm of my hand,
The need of my care,
‘Cause I’m a woman (man;)
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman (man;),
That’s me.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 5:53am
lostnsad says:
Kathleen Hawk
Yeah, maybe the name wasn’t wise… lol
I do have a confession to make — while I have not spoken to him in about 2 weeks — I do have access to his phone records, his social networking sites, his gym membership, and lots of other things — so I can still SEE what he is up too. And while it hurts it also is helping me — I can see him calling certain women (others that he has used and is still using) and while it hurts me to know he is contacting them it also means — I’m NOT crazy — he hasn’t changed he is still doing his “thing”.
Because that was one thing he liked throwing in my face at the end was that HE had a job and was making money and didn’t need to live off or with no “bitch” anymore.
YET….I lost my job because of him (well because of me and my stupidity of being more obsessed with him than my own life)
And that’s the part that hurts the most now…I think that if I still had my job and hasn’t lost the respect of my boss that I had known for 15+ years that I wouldn’t be so bad off. But he took away something that I had worked so hard for… Maybe it wasn’t good that I so attached what I do to who I am (as just about every American does) but I feel like I have been blacklisted in the business area of where I live…. Everyone knows everyone and I feel like my old boss will bad mouth me and I’ll never find a good job again.
Sometimes I even wonder if he really was a P and if maybe I just want to think that… but then I read some of the posts on here and see the types of conversations and think OMG….
For instance…my ex wanted to “be with me but also be single….” which meant that he wanted to be able to fuck other women…. And not just have sex with them but play with their heads, get money out of them and so on…. We used to lay in bed and he’d be texting some other women and I could see what he’d write and it was so manipulative and mean — just like what he did to me — I’d be like what’s the purpose? And the answer was — it’s just what he likes to do…
That is a sick way — made me feel better… because I knew that it wasn’t just me….
I had thrown him out many many times and even tried to warn the new women he was getting in with… but not this time… because then he’ll just be contacting me and yelling at me and threatening me….
Did anyone here become abusive back? I did and I’d like to know if that’s normal… I’d call him names (I even used the N word — he is black and i’m white — i had NEVER even uttered that word until him), I’d spit at him, push him, and throw shit at him. It was like this anger that I had never felt before in all my life would just erupt and explode and I couldn’t control it. I wanted to hurt him… I KNOW that’s why in the oh say 6 months I stayed with him was mostly because I was doing everything in my power to make his life miserable….
He’d go out and I’d text or call him nonstop. Ask him a million and one questions — I’d literally do everything in my power to annoy the crap out of him.
The other thing that I find interesting is that before he left — I felt mentally cloudy… All I wanted to do was sleep all day and all night… I didn’t want to be awake at all. Now I’m so alert. I have even a hard time falling asleep at night because my mind won’t stop. I keep thinking of all the things I have done in the last 2 years and it’s making me crazy… Dealing with HIM being gone isn’t nearly screwing with my head as the realization that I allowed all of this to happen and everything I did…. It makes me sick and crazy and feel so incredibly stupid!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:01am
Kathleen Hawk says:
This is an amazing thread. Blueskies, I love your poem. Visual, powerful and blessedly concise.
I’m going to post one of mine here. (Like most of my writing, not blessedly concise.) I wrote it in mid-recovery from the sociopath, after the year with the therapist working on underlying incest issues. But it’s really about the struggle to find a new way of relating, while we’re taking ourselves back. (And maybe about being careful about how much of ourselves we share, before we don’t know someone very well.)
The Second Date
His mild brown eyes,
soft downy cushion eyes
that invite me to just rest
and not worry about a thing,
attach themselves to my face
as he asks, Do you hate men?
If I were you I would hate men.
I wonder what he sees in me.
If his long gaze into my eyes
imagines depths in me
where one iron link
blackened with sweat, tears,
a little blood still oozing.
pins it all together,
my old history in the hellish home
with all that came after, until now,
this autumn afternoon
in a Starbucks with soft jazz in the air,
full of students, retirees, tourists
in a pretty upstate town.
I pause, mentally cursing the lesbians
who taught me to tell the truth.
Call it rape, they said. It was rape.
I curse my therapist who said
the worst thing was that
there was no one there to help me
with my feelings, my stupid feelings,
so that forty years later
I’m just learning that it wasn’t about me,
unearthing a 13-year old
who went underground
because there was no one to tell,
no one to tell her
it wasn’t her fault.
I curse my father for giving me
a life story that creates such questions
in other people’s eyes.
The questions I hid from all my life.
If you didn’t want it,
why didn’t you run away?
Why didn’t you fix it?
Kill him?
Kill yourself?
Burn the house down?
If you lived through that,
how would you treat
anyone crazy enough to love you?
When I left my son’s father for a woman,
he shrugged and said,
it’s because of what her father did to her.
and when I left the woman
because I wanted another man,
she said the same thing.
When I fell in love with alcoholics
and people who used me for money,
even they said it’s because
of what my father did to me.
When I worked too hard and smoked too much,
when I bought too many clothes,
and gave away anything anyone wanted,
it was because of my father, they said.
Now, with the steaming cups of coffee
on the table between us
in this cheerful café, I look at this man,
wearing his carefully chosen weekend clothes,
his wire-rimmed glasses on a face
that speaks of concern for me,
I wonder what he is imagining now.
Am I a ticking bomb in his eyes?
A woman who will just crack one day,
pick up a kitchen knife
or a hammer and go after a man,
any man at all who’s unlucky enough
to be in the same room with me
when I finally decide
it’s time for tit for tat.
I realize that, after therapy,
after learning it wasn’t my fault,
after taking back my life,
there is a whole new generation
of questions to be afraid of,
a whole new set of reasons
to hide the truth,
to try to pass as someone else,
that there would still be
fatuous twits like this,
imagining they are being kind,
ready to name me
as some kind of monster.
a different kind of monster perhaps
than the mindless slut I once feared
being labeled, but now I have switched
From the moral cripple to the murderous bitch.
And I want to ask him,
is that what you would do?
Hate women because of something
your mother did to you?
Spend your life looking
for the perfect payback,
seeking the perfect Mommy avatar
to be your walking talking voodoo doll,
the more-or-less volunteer Christ to hang
on the cross of your pain,
someone like I used to be
when I made deals
with broken boys like you,
giving you anything, my soul,
my money, anything you could do to my body,
if you’d just protect me.
Cheryl Crowe is singing:
Every day is a winding road
behind the quiet talk at the other tables
in the Starbucks where this man waits
for an answer, his gentle eyes on my face.
I wonder how long he has been waiting.
I think I’m not ready for this.
He’s not ready for me.
There is no way to be ready for anything
in this world full of old stories
and lifetimes full of mistakes,
and nothing to do but keep trying
to do it better, praying
that even if we limp a little,
it doesn’t mean we can’t walk.
But first you have to be willing
to pick up your feet and move.
No, I say, I hate what happened to me.
I hate that my life was twisted by it
for so long, that I still
sometimes feel afraid.
I hate that it taught me things about people
I wish I’d never known.
More than anything, I hate
that it stole my father from me.
I loved him.
And I hate the confusion it caused
in my life for so many years.
I still have to work so hard
to understand things
other people take for granted.
Like when someone is simply being nice
or if they mean to hurt me.
And most of all, I’m sorry
about moments like this,
when someone I thought I liked
makes a mistake in talking to me
that may or may not be meaningful,
but I can’t get past it.
What kind of person would punish
innocent people for the crimes of another?
And from what shadowy doorway does
This man hear
my pain in terms of his fear?
Did I invite this
by telling you my story?
I don’t know.
But I know I don’t want
To see this in your eyes.
And I’m sorry but
It’s time for me to go.
This should be the end of the story,
But I really want to tell you
That this man surprised me.
That he smiled and said, courage
Is always a lonely thing
But it’s the only thing
That gives you something of your own.
Let’s get out of here
And walk down to the river
And see if there’s a canoe to rent.
But that’s not what he said
When he took my hand and stroked it.
You should talk it about it,
It might help you,
Is what he told me.
I took my hand back,
And walked down to the river alone.
Copyright 2007 Kathleen Hawk
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:05am
Kathleen Hawk says:
lostnsad,
Sorry, if I’d realized you were posting I wouldn’t have inserted that poem. I just got excited by all the poetry showing up here. Sort of like our own “open mike” night.
Yes, self-hatred is pretty universal in the beginning. The way I beat myself up was calling myself too stupid to live. I was thinking that for years, even before I got him out of my life.
And as far as being abusive goes, this may not seem right to you, but don’t worry about it. There is a difference between being abusive because you need to make someone smaller to make yourself feel bigger (his problem), and flying off the handle because you’ve been pushed to your human limits. Yes, you may have said things you regret, things you wouldn’t say under any other circumstances. But when we get into full-blown fight-or-flight mode, political correctness or our higher social conscious can slip away, a luxury that we can’t afford.
As far as your job goes, welcome to the club. I am among the many people here who virtually destroyed our careers, because we were so emotionally twisted up and distracted by pain. The fact that most of us are such over-performers and over-tolerant of pain adds up to eventual disaster when we can’t keep all the balls in the air. Our grief and anger starts to bleed out in situations that have nothing to do with it. In my case, I simply imploded professionally. Couldn’t keep up the calm and helpful front that was necessary. Started reading everything as exploitation and abuse at the same time that I was terrified of losing the one important personal resource I had left.
Here’s the good news. All this chaos and destruction are giving you a chance to reevaluate your life, to rethink your patterns and redesign it. It’s a kind of very explosive mid-like crisis. If you start, as I did, with “what the hell is wrong with me?” you create a mental environment in which you can gradually untangle what happened, what you really wanted from this guy and your job, and begin to live in a way that is better at producing it for you.
All that is very logical and theoretical, and doesn’t do much for your raging feelings right now. Especially, if you like me, have a desire to bang your head against the wall and say “How could I have been so stupid?” But I truly the believe that the mind is ultimately rational. And that you were in that relationship for a reason. You were there to learn or experience something that you needed to know.
If I could give you any advice now it would be to pay attention to your feelings, listen to them as though they were friends trying to tell you something important. I think that’s the truth. And even though you’re hearing self-hatred at the top level, underneath that is the wisdom and guidance of the deep self that wants you to survive and thrive. Just sit with it, think about it, see how to you feel and listen to those feelings. The truth, your truth, is in there.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:30am
skylar says:
Kathleen, your poem has so much vulnerability and courage. The idea that we are being defined by those who hurt us is one that I’ll have to really put some thought into it. It might be a good thing or a not. I feel that I’ve been vaccinated against a great evil, but at what cost? Can I still be me? How have I been transformed? How do I integrate all the meanings that I’ve found through this experience and make it one cohesive, FUNCTIONING whole?
Lost and Found (your new name),
yes, we all went through the struggle of being abusive back, thinking that we were standing our ground, being firm and strong. That’s not what we were doing and it’s not what you were doing. We were all being manipulated into REACTING with rage and violence. It’s what they want. Once you’ve done that they know that they have you. They own you. They can pull your strings because they can provoke your emotions. Next stop: despair.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:47am
lostnsad says:
Kathleen,
I loved your poem; thanks for posting it.
What you said “over-performers and over-tolerant of pain” — that is SOOOO true. I have an unbelievably HIGH tolerance for pain…
As for my job… I have about another 5 months to reevaluate things and figure something out as that’s when my unemp ends…
I’ve thought about moving and have had some ideas on different things to do or undertake… but then I talk myself out of them or I find that I can’t concentrate long enough to formulate solid plans. But then, I have NEVER been a planner — more a fly by the seat of my pants kinda person… and things always worked out for me…
Then I met him…. I can only hope that in the near future… I can look back at all of this and be in a better place…
I just have NO clue how to get there… I have several ideas for writing a book — but I’ve never really written before… I’m an avid reader but not a writer…
Maybe this all happened because I just allowed life to happen and went were it took me and maybe I’m supposed to finally step up to the wheel and control my own destiny…
That’s scary… Can I run and hide now?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:48am
henry says:
Lostnsad – I also did crazy things to ‘get even’ with my X S, I am embarrassed to this day, but I was in flight or fight mode, it was my home and I wasnt going to flee and he continued to take advantage of me, disrespect me and my home. I will never understand how he could stay here and say he loved me, the way I was treated him at the end. I am sure I appeared like the crazy one, he was the smart one working with his brain, I was working on emotions turned inside out and upside down. I could go on and on about the insanity, but I will spare all here the drama. LostnSad you have to stop checking his messages , knowing what he is up to etc. you have all the proof you need. NO Contact~~!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:00pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Yes, lostandfound, you can climb under the covers. Just take your feelings with you. They’re your friends.
I’m very philosophical. Partly it’s my nature; partly it’s where I am now. So I can talk to you like some white-haired auntie talking across a kind of chasm of time and living. But what I’m telling you is just to help you get a grip on the framework on what’s happening to you. There are a lot of people here who are going to be much more helpful in the here and now.
But I can tell you one practical thing related to what you just wrote. Five months is not long enough to get back to where you were before this started. (Actually you’re never going back there, because you’re doing some major evolutionary work right now. But let’s say that’s you’re goal, because it’s the best you can imagine right now.) In five months, if you’re really focused on getting well, you’re going to be in the angry phase and learning how to be a warrior in your own life. You’re going to be dangerous to anyone who crosses you, and learning how to speak your mind in ways that would have horrified you in the past.
So what I’m telling you is that you might need to consider that in your plans. You’re not necessarily going to be the helpful, agreeable, overworking, let-me-do-it-for-you and let-me-take responsibility-for-your-problems sweetheart that you used to be. If that affect your job — like if you were in some helping profession, customer service or consulting work — it might be a good time to take a hiatus, write a book about everything wrong in your industry, or get a disagnosis of PSTD and get on some kind of subsidy and get used to a downscaled lifestyle until you get through this. In other words, don’t underestimate the importance of what you’re going through.
A lot of us use the phoenix as a metaphor. We’re rising from the ashes of our lives and rediscovering who we are. Right now, you’re kind of in the ashes, thinking that the destruction is the most important thing. Pretty soon, you’re going to realize that the most important thing is what’s left. The part of you that doesn’t burn. That’s when things get interesting.
If you’re thinking about writing, write. I wrote all the way through my recovery. I highly recommend it, as do a lot of people here if you’re inclined that way. I didn’t call it journaling at the time, because most of what I wrote was (mostly unsent) letters to my ex, trying to work through it all. But journaling is what it was. It’s amazingly helpful to get this stuff out of your head, and some of us do write and publish books.
As far as your next to last paragraph, that’s evidence of another thing I believe. That we already know everything we need to know. We just have to undo some bad training, bad thinking, before we really grok it and can use it in our lives.
Considering where you are right now, you sound great. Really. You’re doing fine.
Kathy
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:17pm
heavenbound says:
Pollyannanomore,
Thank you I kinda needed that! well actually I needed that a whole lot!
Lostnsad and everyone else,
I let myself get out of control, Do and say things i never thought i’d do or say…its the crazymaking. It really does make me feel bad. On top of that i got so tangled up in his web that i distroyed my own character. Hopefully I won’t let it get that bad again, I’ll just get away from it.
Gotta get ready for an appointment! bye for now!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:19pm
lostnsad says:
Kathleen…
Your poem sparked something in me… I haven’t written in such a long time not since high school… I just wrote this thinking of him and how he made me feel…
Stolen…
Silky almond skin
Warm inviting eyes
Luscious sensual lips
Arms wrapped around me
Filling me with love
Fingers gliding
Longing evoked
Tongue sliding
Releasing me
Words whispered
Promises made
Wishes spoken
Falling into bliss
Trusting so completely
Ignoring the inner whispers
Evil wrapping around my soul
Invading my essence
Ripping apart the fibers of my being
Realization of lost control
Awareness of guilt
Awakening of pain
Broken
Lost
Weak
Left drained
Tossed aside
Essence stolen
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:28pm
lostnsad says:
The funny (or maybe not so funny…) thing is that I have always been intrigued by vampires… I love the stories and I have read just about every novel ever written (and those that think Ann Rice is great — her stories really aren’t when you read some others such as Brian Lumley). But I digress… My point is I always thought they were myths…little did I know that they were real; they just don’t suck blood in order to thrive… they crave your soul and your utter destruction….
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 12:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
skylar, thank you for your kind and always stimulating words.
I didn’t mean to say that we’re defined by the people who harm us. We’re defined by what we think about ourselves. And as far as what other people see in us, that’s their stuff. We can change what we think about ourselves (that’s what this recovery is all about). As far as other people’s internal lenses and projections, those are the basis of what we didn’t cause and can’t fix.
We just have choices about what we involve ourselves with, as far as other people’s projections go. The telling part of that poem — for me — was the part about courage. I am not my history. Sorting it out is just one of the challenges of my life. It’s how I’m handling that challenge and the meaning I assign to it that are the interesting things about me. This is what I want people to see. Because I want to be with people who live with that kind of internal vocabulary.
That guy’s fascination with hatred was just icky. (My very sophisticated term for the feeling of “get your ass out of here, now.”) He didn’t define me. Nor did my father, though I kind of regressed momentarily into self-pity when faced by another self-indulgent user.
I’m interested in some of your book recommendations, and some of the terminology you use. Mimetic something? I have to look that up, and learn what you are describing.
Thanks for all you write.
Kathy
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 1:06pm
skylar says:
Kathleen,
In a way we are our history and the lenses through which we choose to see our history. The evil we have encountered is a vaccination against other evil. It creates a sort of immunity but it leaves us changed.
I began thinking about Joseph Campbell and this series on the transformative powers of myths. I had the entire series and watched it on PBS years ago. The things he discussed resonated with the kinds of things that you and I have experienced with the P’s. Subconsciously, I realized that there was a connection between these experiences and mythology. So I started googling and learning about Joseph Campbell. That lead me into another direction:
I found “Violence and the Sacred.” And I found another called “The myth of irrationality”
Freudian psychology touches on mythology but doesn’t quite hit the mark. There are better models for understanding and these include the study of memetics.
I’m out the door right now but I’ll try to get back on this topic later.
(hug)
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 3:20pm
skylar says:
Ok, I’m back from lunch.
Kathleen,
You and I could talk about this forever and a day. There’s soooo much to uncover and discuss.
Most of my reading has been in trying to understand the monster rather than myself. I don’t think I can begin to understand my part in this experience without first understanding what the monster is and why he came to be.
As I continue to read to learn about the monster, I come across interesting correlations in mythology, philosophy, art, religion, theatre, psychology, sociology. It all seems to connect somewhere at the point where the infant brain begins to develop its identity in relation to the society it is raised in. In other words, the point where genetics interacts with the environment to create the human personality.
The book Violence and the Sacred seems to take these connections and tries to make sense of it. It is really hard to understand, though, partly because of the way the french author uses language, it doesn’t flow with the way I think.
Here is a good “review” on it:
http://findarticles.com/p/arti....._18962919/
Here is a large portion of the book, in google books:
http://books.google.com/books?.....mp;f=false
“The myth of irrationality” is a much easier, more “fun” book to read.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 5:59pm
style1 says:
I, sometimes, feel so glad that he is out of my life.. I am now available to go forward in a true relationship.. even though I have a fear that no one is true.. that they are all out to use me in some way and on some level.. then I feel sad and alone and miss the constant contact .. the over contact of his calls and texts and interest in me.. when he was really only interested in himself and his control of me… I will never let this kind of a con into my life on any level ever again.. I will see clearly and act on my instincts. I will know that what I feel and see is the truth.. I will never doubt me again.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 6:38pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
skylar,
I read the article. I probably won’t read the book. The older I get, the more grateful I am that my life was shaped more by estrogen than testosterone. The whole rationale strikes me as very male, and a valiant effort to explain the issue of violence. I have compassion for the inclination, but it doesn’t resonate with me.
Here’s what I find more useful. There was a book called “The Great Cosmic Mother” that was written about 30 years ago by a couple of Scandinavian feminist archeologists. If you can get your hands on it (and I think there are used copies floating around), I think you’d enjoy it.
These two women present the proposition that, before organized religions, there were cultures that were very integrated in terms of family-community and sprituality-behavioral standards. They were essentially run by women, but not in the heirarchical structure that is the familiar power structure today, but more according to principles that honored life and gave women status as life-givers.
Their theory is that that agriculture made these tribal cultures successful and they started to accumulate enough wealth to carry it over from one year to the next. And men were given the task to protect the wealth from less fortunate or predatory enemies. A guardian class evolved which gradually promoted the virtues of control, hierarchical power, and individual wealth.
There were several results from this. One of the creation of an underclass of expendable, replaceable labor for wealth creation and fighting wars. Another was a shift in way spirituality was practiced and viewed.
Where people were previously connected to their own source of God, the new order placed priests as intermediaries between people and God. This was important as a control mechanism, because people with private understanding and connection were free. When the priests were able to create the rules of access to grace or heaven, people were separated from their sense of belonging and entitlement. In particular, they created a lot of rules around sexual behavior, making women subservient to men and outlawing activity outside of marriage and procreation, in order to create psychological blocks against intimacy and the type of orgasmic spiritual openings that were the simplest way for anyone to get in touch with their private spirituality.
I’m giving you a very condensed version of a long and very interesting book. And though there is no way of knowing if any of this is accurate (though we do have modern-day knowledge of the toxic impact of Western culture on the emotional health and spiritual impulses of indigenous cultures), I find the whole idea really interesting.
Particularly since it provides an elegant explanation of what Jung would call the dark side of our characters, the repressed, denied and hidden aspects. This power-based reorganization of human culture would have created immediate damage to the psyche of the people who lost their entitlement to self-determination and fruits of their own labor, when they became defined as “human fodder” to be used in accumulation of power or wealth. And equivalent damage to the psyche of the masters who would have had to block any real awareness or compassionate responsibility for the life conditions of the people they were using.
And so we have the beginning of sociopathy as a cultural phenomenon. I should note here that, as an ex-Catholic turned sort-of-Buddhist carrying of a private awareness of God inside of me, I have an idea of what a difference that makes when it comes to acquiescing to cultural rules designed to keep me in my place. It was a long haul for me to get here, and I was angry for many years, though today I just roll my eyes. But I still get angry at the waste of human potential engendered by cultural formulas designed to convince people that suffering and submission will be rewarded by some record-keeping boss in the sky.
Which is why, not surprisingly, my life’s work is really about helping people discover who they really are.
But to get back to the story, which is almost finished. Many years after reading this book, I discovered two other essential resources. One is the books of Stephen M. Johnson, a psychologist who synthesizes childhood emotional development, trauma processing theory, and the personality disorders. He offers ideas about how the timing and nature of early traumas cause blocked development of human capacities, and overdevelopment of others. His theories exactly match my knowledge of the narcissists, sociopaths and certain addicts I’ve known. And I should add that the book “Strategy of the Dolphin” does a very good job of turning some of these ideas into practical life philosophy.
But the thing that most recently provided a huge leap forward to my thinking is the study of non-violent communication. Developed by psychologist Marshall Rosenberg, NVC is an mind-bending discipline of communicating with compassion. You wouldn’t think that would be so hard, until you realize that these cultural trainings have replaced our natural compassion, even toward ourselves, with punitive rules. So to do this, we have to become compassionate toward ourselves.
Rosenberg, in one of his CDs, calls NVC a revolutionary method. This is because listening and talking with compassion must be done from a position of openness a willingness to know and understand other people’s needs, as well as our own. But we are not responsible for anyone’s feelings and needs, but our own. That is a fairly evolved perspective. And he talks about earlier states, when we feel responsible for other people’s feelings, as emotional slavery. We have to move beyond emotional slavery to interact with anything like true compassion.
All of this corresponds with therapeutic approaches to treat PSTD and other trauma related issues. Ultimately, we must process through the trauma, until the influence of the outside thing is resolved as an event that happened to us, but is not us, and we recover our own knowledge of our own deep integrity (wholeness) and our power over our lives.
All of this sounds so theoretical until we look around us at the hatred, resentment, feelings of powerless and victimization, truncation of our ability to feel connection with other people or the world, the acting out of repressed feelings, the big extravagant culture dramas built around fear, security, loneliness and alienation, our belief in inherent evil in people, etc.
These are my big influences today, though I profited from a lot of books during my healing process after the sociopath. Someday we should probably start a thread here just for book recommendations and reviews. What was helpful, and maybe at what point in our process.
As you can probably gather from this long (sorry!) post, I think the enemy is us. Yes, there are broken people out there who have completely blocked capacity for bonding and anything like compassion. But those of us who deny or are unaware of our own power over our lives and the world around us are existing in the other side of that pathology.
The stories of the victims are heart-rending, but the big question is why are we victims? What is it in us that makes us value security over freedom? This is not simple, either the question or the many factors involved in answering it. We need something like order in our lives simply to survive. But that does not mean that we have to give our souls away to get it.
I think your Frenchman and I are walking the same territory, if not the same path. The culture has to change, because we are consuming ourselves. But I don’t view violence as the cause, but rather an immature understanding of what is good over the long term. My ex once sent me a quote from F. Scott Fitzgerald, something like “The quest for dignity is the basis of all human endeavors.” That seems like a good place to start.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 8:42pm
skylar says:
kathleen, I read the article AFTER I posted it here for you. That article veered off topic a bit. There are various (shorter) reviews on amazon.
Still, this book is a hard row to how. Not light reading, at all. I had to read most of the pages more than once to fathom some of what he was saying. so I don’t blame you if you choose to forgo it.
As fascinating as I find the subject of the P, I’m more than ready to begin examining N-supplies and my own issues.
Despite emotional abuse by my P-parents, before I met the P, I was not afraid of anything. A few weeks ago, I told the psychopath that invaded LF, that I had met the green river murder and made him apologize to me and call himself a horny toad. It’s true, that did happen when I was 15.
I was a free spirit and very self-assured and nothing, I MEAN NOTHING, was gonna stop me. I made things happen. Other than one guy, that I became engaged to for a couple of years, (and then broke his heart) I never expected my boyfriends to say “I love you”, I just liked having lots of boyfriends. I was not looking for prince charming to rescue me, I could do that on my own. But then I met the xP. He said he didn’t like to share me with all those guys and wanted to be exclusive. He said he loved me. I was 17, I didn’t know a man could be so sweet. Then he sucked the life out of me for the next 25 years. I have so many fears now, I’m tired all the time, I have no energy. The only positive thing he left me with was my new found ability to spot a P a mile away.
I know you’ve helped me before to try to overcome my fearful thinking. Any books along that line are exactly what I need right now.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:41pm
ErinBrock says:
Blue, Kathleen and lost:
WOW…..that’s all I can say!
Your way of putting raw emotions in poetry is inspiring!
Blue:
You are such a dear….such a compasionate person withwarmth! It’s a honor to be in your ‘company’ here!
Kathy:
I’ve told you this before…..you are quite a woman! I so enjoy your words, aproach and insight! THANK YOU!
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:53pm
skylar says:
Style, I read your blog on another thread. Welcome. your description was so extensive. It reminds me of me right now. All I want is sex and someone to help me with chores. LOL.
My new beau is becoming a dissappointment in those departments. He is so busy with work and not as sex starved as I have been celibate for 15 years. LOL. He is nice but now I’m beginning to feel like he’s playing with my emotions. Oh well. Been there, done that.
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Friday, 23 October 2009 @ 11:59pm
ann1961 says:
Everytime I read a blog on LF I can’t believe it still! that what I have experienced is written all over this site, so many ppl have experienced the exact same thing. I always felt like a weirdo or a freak because these things happened to me. For instance, Kathleen said: “As far as your job goes, welcome to the club. I am among the many people here who virtually destroyed our careers, because we were so emotionally twisted up and distracted by pain. The fact that most of us are such over-performers and over-tolerant of pain adds up to eventual disaster when we can’t keep all the balls in the air. Our grief and anger starts to bleed out in situations that have nothing to do with it. In my case, I simply imploded professionally. Couldn’t keep up the calm and helpful front that was necessary.” This makes me feel SO much better, I certainly am not glad it happened to you or to many of us here, but it happened to me nearly 2 yrs ago and I STILL beat myself up for it! I worked at a hospital as an RN for 25 yrs, the last 10 I spent as the Director of the Home Health department. It was a very stresful jot, juggling patients, referrals, staff, doctors, insurance companies, etc etc etc. I did it very well for those 10 yrs, and the last few months, I imploded also. I couldn’t believe it, I was shocked. My own staff turned on me and said that I was constantly stressed, sad, depresed, and ‘we all have problems too but we dont bring them to work’. NO ONE could understand what it was like to live with a narcissistic P husband, I did not even know how to explain it all. At the time, my VERY narcissistic mother was dying, and I was her primary caregiver. I was so stressed out. My husband had moved out after another affair I had caught him having, and my youngest daughter had just left for college, 2000 miles away! I had some big time empty nest, my mom, my husband’s affair (which was ALL MY FAULT by the way) and my job suffered as a result, and I LOST MY JOB. I couldn’t believe it. Since that time, I have been floundering around, and like Kathleen said also ” like if you were in some helping profession, customer service or consulting work — it might be a good time to take a hiatus, write a book about everything wrong in your industry, or get a disagnosis of PSTD and get on some kind of subsidy and get used to a downscaled lifestyle until you get through this. In other words, don’t underestimate the importance of what you’re going through.” I am in the helping profession, and it makes me crazy to think about going back to it. I could write MANY books about it, that is for sure. I WAS diagnosed with PSTD. What do you mean by a subsidy? I just need a break to sort out what I wanna do with my life. I was a nurse for so long, I cannot imagine being anything else, yet the thought of going back to it, all the raw GIVING you have to do, I know I am not up for it yet. I have been thinking and thinking about what else I could do.
This is a fantastic site, wish I had known about it looooong ago. It has been more helpful getting me through the initial stages of NC, and just understanding the S and P, than any book I have read, anything. Everyone on here is like an expert on the subject because they have been through it. You certainly cannot get this much good info from a shrink!! Just being given the permission to FEEL it all and to think about it and learn about it has been empowering to me. Thanks to all!
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:33am
blueskies says:
(cripes- the poem wasnt mine, I meant to put her name at the bottom- its by MayAngelou*blush* – I dont write so good:)x
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 1:28am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks, Erin. It’s mutual.
Skylar, here are a couple of suggestions about things to read. They’re not exactly about sociopaths, but they are about getting better. One of them was something that helped Matt a lot: “If You Had Controlling Parents: How to Make Peace with Your Past and Take Your Place in the World” by Dan Neuharth. It’s a surprising book about the baggage we carry and how to dump it. It’s not the typical self-help book and I really loved it.
The other one is completely different, “Opening Love’s Door: The Seven Lessons” by Diana Kirschner. It’s a charming book about getting over old dramas, written like a novel. After I read it, I send copies to most of my friends, and then they sent copies to most of their friends. It’s that kind of book.
Neither of them is going to be a magic bullet for you. Because you need time to pull yourself together again. As you said, you’re drained and it takes time to just replenish the blood supply. And even though we all know intuitively that this is really about us, not them, it seems to be an important part of healing to get a grip on what we were dealing with. Not in the threoretical terms you get in a book. But in the context of our own memories. We need to do some thinking about how they acted and figure out how different it really was than anything we or anyone else we know (other than our toxic parents) would behave. So we have to go through that period of mulling over things.
As far as your fear goes, the only answer that makes sense is that you survived. Here you are. I know that at the beginning of my recovery, one of the reasons I made up my mind to get well was because I was really scared of what was in my future. I’d always been a pushover for bad boys, but until that last really bad boy, I’d usually screened them pretty well. Now I was so beat up and desperately needy for comfort and emotional shelter I knew that I was nothing but bait for the bottom feeders. And I had to fix whatever the hell was wrong with me, if I didn’t want things to get worse. So I organized my own private psychiatric lock-down unit here in front of my computer, and went to work on myself.
Doing this is better than your other choices. One is that you can try to run for safety into the arms of someone interested in taking on a teary, scared, bruised woman. (Did I mention the bottom feeders?) Two is that you can give up and kill yourself, which is a common occurrence in the aftermath of these relationships. I considered it during my darkest days, but I ultimately figured that it was an option I could postpone until I figured out whether I could fix myself. (Besides I didn’t want to leave my son with that legacy.) Or you can hang out with yourself for a while, and try to learn to understand and care for this complicated and seriously upset character.
And just in case you didn’t read my series, here’s how it goes. First you have to face the fact that you’re in pain and it’s because of him. You have to get really into the idea that you’re were a victim, and indulge yourself in self pity and general whining while you bump up your simmering resentments into fullblown outrage. You can dump some of that on any other abusers in your past as well. (And yes, you’re allowed and supposed to do a lot of whining and fuming and blaming and calling them names in this phase. You have to, before you can get on to the next phase.)
Later, you’ll leverage that good, sharp, focussed angry energy into building the kind of boundaries that are so much a part of you that you don’t have to keep pushing them into other people’s faces. Because they’re solid and hooked into your nervous system, which flashes alerts when anything makes you feel uncomfortable. And you’ll get interested in improving your skills at avoiding, deflecting or getting rid of problems.
After that, and not before, you’ll move onto the next stage which is completely different, because you’ll start looking at your own role in what happened. Not when you were a kid, but when you were a grown-up. You don’t do it earlier, because you don’t want to do until you feel a little more confident about taking care of yourself first. If you’re not confident yet, looking at your own participation will just feel like self-abuse. And that’s not what this is supposed to be. This is an inquiry about how your screwed-up background with unfeeling creeps when you were a kid predisposed you to vulnerability to the type when you were an adult. And what you can do now to change those obsolete coping mechanisms from childhood.
This, when done at the right time, turns into the fun work of recovery. Because we’re really healing ourselves. Learning what was wrong with the lessons we took from childhood, and what would work better now. Seeing how the world looks through these new viewpoints. Reconsidering who we really are and what we want to do with ourselves.
At this point the bad people because a lot less threatening. It becomes easier to see how fundamentally crippled they are. And how, for us, they are obstacle to our happiness, but ones we can generally avoid or boot out of the way.
So all this is what you’re looking forward to. For right now, if scared is the biggest problem you have, dig into it. Why are you scared, Skylar? And what’s beneath that? And what’s beneath that? Stay with the presenting problem and just get to know it. It’s part of you. It has a reason for making all that noise in your head. It’s trying to tell you something important, about you and about what your trying to figure out about your life. It’s never quite what we thought it was, when we dig down into it. But the enlightenment is always good. It’s better to know ourselves than to try to hide.
Finally, I don’t know any of the details about what happened to you, but if all this just gets too scary to do alone, I really recommend finding a therapist. If you can’t find one that deals specifically with recovery from sociopathic relationships, find one who treats adult survivors of childhood abuse. The healing process is pretty much the same. We’re dealing with narcissistic wounds that have affected our sense of our identity.
I hope this is helpful, and that it makes some sense, and that I haven’t stepped on your toes or sounded patronizing. I’m sorry, as usual, that it’s so long. You’re going to be fine. You’re resourceful, strong and smart. You just need to give yourself a break so you can heal.
Kathy
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 1:45am
blueskies says:
here is a blueskies poem to make up for it its a couple of years old:
THE FABRIC OF DREAMS – a tale of procrastination and hesitation
We’ve come so far, rattling dreams behind us,
some still bright in the mind’s eye , some ghosts, some barely seen
we carry dreams like hidden jewels
in the lining of the fabric of our being.
I have a pack, with things marked “yet to do”.
and those visions are jammed in so tight,
so many dreams, so many schemes which up ‘til now
I have been saving up, as the time was “not quite right”.
I was waiting
for someone who dashed my hope,
and laughed.
Sometimes it was just too hard to cope
was that just a another day-dream?
Forgot what it was I wanted anyway-
not such a good idea now! Stupid.
The dream was packed away again – for another day.
And –surprise- the days still dawn, bright and full of future,
and endless sky –sunny days stretch out to a far horizon
and is easy to think that so long as the dreams are held close
the rosy days will always greet me red and gold and full of endless skies
and nothing need be risked or spilled or broken yet – awhile.
why should I measure time
it is always now and there is always a future.
Maybe next year make a start – everything will be fine.
As each enticing chance glides by
I have no need to grasp it yet – do I?
Life goes on for ever – so it seems
And my soul is sewn quite tightly to the hem of my dreams.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 1:48am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oh blueskies, that is so good. I love the writing, and I really relate. But wait until you pass 50. I had to thin them out, and then get serious about what was left. Facing your own mortality really concentrates mind.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 2:00am
blueskies says:
Kathleen you are so right:)x I am thinning out, and weeding, and getting serious about what’s left:)x Its a wonderful step change, ‘to let go’, even if it is to some of my dreams too, the path is clearer, I have only now to walk it. No more waiting:)x
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 3:12am
libelle says:
Dear Kathleen, Skylar, Erin, Blueskies, Stile, Ann. Thank you so much for this incredible, inspiring, helpful, wonderful thread. It was like looking in the mirror and seeing a crisp inspiring motivating possible path out of my stagnation I feel at present (specially the procrastination and fear from changing resonated with me!).
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 7:43am
skylar says:
Kathleen, thank you for your inspiring words. I’ll put that book at the top of my list.
It’s hard to tell, why or even if, I’m scared. I feel indecisive and that there is no point in doing anything for myself. I know some of this comes from the P-parents gaslighting me as a child, and the rest comes from my xP sabotaging all my efforts, keeping me poisoned and alone.
Really, it’s only been my faith in God and the miracles he presented me with each time I triumphed COMPLETELY BY ACCIDENT over the P and his minions. No matter how hard I tried, my plans always got derailed. Now I know that the P was sabotaging me, but my subconscience has been programmed that my efforts are not worth it. (My P-parents still hover around waiting for signs of any bit of happiness so that they can squash it. I have to walk around looking depressed for fear of inspiring their envy.)
Despite all the physical and emotional sabotaging, some amazing stroke of luck would always come out of the blue and I would land on my feet. This was never due to any plans I had made, but some bizarre coincidence that blindsided everyone involved. So now, I just feel like there’s no point in trying to do anything when it never happens like I planned, but instead I wait around for everything to fall in place, like it always does. I know that this isn’t an “adult” way of thinking.
Even my 25 years with the P is another example of this. I thought I was going forward as an adult making choices and managing my life when the whole time I was just a play thing for a mythological creature. In the end, the experience has been very interesting and eye opening. It will serve me well, I know that, but JEEZ, it’s not what I had planned! I’d just like to for once – not to usurp God’s power or wisdom – but for once, I’d like to have a goal, a plan and accomplish it as I had envisioned it.
I would like to direct my life, not just be swept along by it. But nothing seems like the right choice, so I just don’t make any choices. I’m kinda waiting for that thunderbolt to hit again.
Does anyone else have this type of “magical thinking” going on? or is it just me?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 9:36am
M.L. Gallagher says:
Kathleen, you wrote:
“I think the enemy is us. Yes, there are broken people out there who have completely blocked capacity for bonding and anything like compassion. But those of us who deny or are unaware of our own power over our lives and the world around us are existing in the other side of that pathology.
The stories of the victims are heart-rending, but the big question is why are we victims? What is it in us that makes us value security over freedom? This is not simple, either the question or the many factors involved in answering it. We need something like order in our lives simply to survive. But that does not mean that we have to give our souls away to get it.”
Powerful stuff. Thank you for writing that.
When I was in that relationship, I valued security over freedom, at all costs. And those costs were high. Very high. Yet, the payout is greater than I could have imagined, because…
I survived.
Period.
That relationship Hurt.
Period.
I am alive today to live this one beautiful life passionately in love with me, myself and I.
Not in a narcissistic way
. In a “I am human, this is me” kind of way — and if I can’t love myself, how do I love the world around me? How do I create a ripple effect that sends the best of me out into the world?
I am Darkness and light. Sorrow and joy. Sadness and happiness. Alpha and omega. Up and down. In and out and all around.
Henry — your words further up the thread were very powerful.
The poetry offerings are beautiful.
And what is most inspiring, incredible, awesome, beautiful is… the heartfelt willingness of each and everyone of you to share and support and be open and honest and loving of yourselves and each other. WOW!
One of the biggest challenges of healing from these cretins is — we get stuck in the story of what they did. We spend our time trying to figure out why they did it, how could they have done it, what was true, what was lie — and all of it is under the guise of telling ourselves, I must understand them to find where I lost me in them.
Reality is — We never ‘lost’ ourselves in them. They are not that powerful they could contain all of us — our beauty, wonder, truth, integrity, honesty, love, joy, sorrow. Those attributes are still contained within us. They are our treasure.
We lost ourselves in the crazy-making world of their presence in our lives. Without them physically in our lives, we are the one’s keeping them here after they’re gone with our focus on — he did this, or that and I said, he said, why couldn’t he, why did he, what’s with that? dialogue. We give our power away every time we fall into the victim’s place of spending our precious breath on trying to figure them out.
Figuring out ‘the individual’ n or s or p is a waste of our precious energy. Understanding the collective n or s or p pscyhology is important. It puts what we experienced in context to the collective understanding of the psychological condition and provides each of us an opportunity to know — we are not alone. ‘My’ p lied to me about his health. I thought he was dying of a heart condition. “Check”. Many ps lie about their health. They use poor health as a ploy to create artificial empathy in their victim. Check. Confirmation that what I experienced is a common experience for those encountering ps or ns or ss. Ps lie about health. What happened to me makes sense on the continuum of encounters of the p kind.
The degree to which they expanded the lie is simply the degree to which they went to test the boundaries of our belief, gullibility, ‘love’. The impact of the original ’sin’, the lie about health, is what I need to know to understand him — he’s a p, what else would he do except lie? The impact of how the depth of his lie effected me is what I need to understand me, where I went and what I need to do to find myself again.
They are not the one’s who deserve our attention. They are not our light, nor our darkest hour. What they did had nothing to do with us — they did what they did because they could. Because it is what they do.
The question is: What are you going to do? Right now. Today. To claim your right to live this one, wild and beautiful life for all you’re worth? What is your worth?
If anger is where you’re stuck. Express it.
If sadness is where you’re stuck. Express it.
Where ever you’re stuck. Find a creative way to express it and move through it. DAnce. Scream in the forest. Throw eggs at trees. Take a rubber tube and beat up a tree. Get a bag of potatoes and smash them up. Stomp on them. Get physical.
And breathe.
Imagine taking the circular line of your emotions around and around his crazy-making, and straightening it out. Feel the tension in the line. Feel how it wants to go back to its circular shape. Keep straightening it out. Press it down. Glue it down. Straighten it out. Imagine that line is a big thick arrow leading out of darkness into a lightness of being. At the tip of the arrow is a big huge EXIT sign above a door. You’re moving towards it. You’re gaining momentum. You’re at the door. You want to move through — and you’re scared, worried, frightened. You keep looking back, trying to pick up part of the line behind you, but you can’t. The line has faded into black. You must step through that door into the light. And once you step through that EXIT door, there’s no going back to round and round the mulberry bush of his insane antics. There’s no going back to pick up your thinking about what he did and how it hurt you and why it was wrong and mean and unkind and selfish and horrible…..
It was wrong and mean and unkind and selfish and horrible.
Period.
Imagine — this is your moment to make the choice. Stay stuck in the circle line of round and round the crazy-making. Step through the EXIT sign into the light of a brand new day. A brand new way of being — FREE.
Your choice.
Which direction will you choose?
Like you Kathleen — I tend to write long
And once I’ve written, I let my words go. They are just my thoughts appearing on the page. They are released. I cannot determine nor control nor be measured by how someone receives, perceives or reacts to them. What I write, I write from my heart balanced in love with all I’ve learned and become in having opened myself up to growing through that encounter. What I write comes from my heart with the belief that my words will resonate out there. My words are my ripple effect. And they flow from love.
May each of us be touched by the Divine today. May our hearts be broken wide open in love. May our arms embrace our spirits in joy and wonder that today we are alive. Free to dance and laugh and sing and leap for joy. Free to be our most amazing selves.
Nameste.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 9:48am
skylar says:
Louise, your post brings up my second question: Do normal people ever walk around being open and honest or am I the only one?
It seems like everybody is playing head games all the time. Everyone has a hidden agenda, even if it’s just to pull emotional strings or feel empowered by getting the last word.
I’m going to give a tiny, irrelevant example just to show you how this happens in situations where it serves absolutely no purpose:
A dance studio holds outdoor salsa dancing at the beach during the summer and I liked to go out there and video the dancers, just to improve my skills with the camera. Then I was going to upload it on Youtube for the benefit of anyone who was there and wants to watch. The studio owner approached me and asked why I was shooting and I explained. He asked me to please let him see it before I uploaded it. So he gave me his email address and I tried to contact him to ask which file format he preferred to receive. Then he didn’t answer so I sent him another email and he responded with “whatever”. I sent him a small file and he didn’t reply, then I emailed again and he said he couldn’t open it blah blah blah. It went back and forth with various delays. Finally he responded, “oh, that was great, I liked it”
I could see he was playing for power, but why? I don’t even know him. Why do people act like this? I can honestly say that I only know one person that doesn’t act like this. With my new found P-radar, my disillusionment becomes more profound each day.
I’m just the opposite. I speak plainly and truthfully as much as I can, even when talking to people who are obviously not truthful. I just can’t imagine being any other way and I’m wondering if this is part 2 of my problem.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:15am
lostingrief says:
lostnsad:
glad you found us. and hope you’re doing better. day by day, you’ll find new reasons to feel better, feel worse, wonder, hope, hate him, love him, but if you can stick to NC, you will get the objective viewpoint you need to really truly understand what you were up against. a complete demon, a sadist, a cruel sick sub-human.
btw, your name is fine. i’ve had mine for almost 15 months now when i first found LF. then, i really was completely LOST and very much IN GRIEF … after 25 on-and-off years with someone i was certain would ‘love’ me forever. now i know he never loved me, and talk about ‘nothing left to take’ — geesh.
and even though i’m no longer ‘lost’ or ‘in grief’ over him, this name allows me to see how far i have travelled on the road back to wholeness.
today is his birthday … i sang him a song …
altogether now!
hope you drop dead today!
get out of everyone’s way …
back in your hellish dungeon
you will forever pay!
TOWAAAAAAANDA!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:29am
kim frederick says:
Wow, Ladies. Now that’s what I’m talking about! Really great stuff on this thread; creative, inspiring, encouraging, rational, imaginative, compassionate, healing.
I am one who has read,”Violence and the Sacrid, and got a lot out of it. I have also studied Joseph Cambell, and Jung, some Freaud, Feminist theorists, and read a little bit about paganism. I used to write poetry, and paint in water-colors, but unfortunatly those things seemed to have fallen by the way-side.
I wrote this short stanza this morning:
This poem is drinking coffee, and teaching itself to knit.
You hear the tat, tat of the needles, and then the pause-
to sip.
v
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:49am
M.L. Gallagher says:
Hi Skylar,
It is possible that in the moment of connecting with you, he was concerned/worried/curious — and wanted to have control. If you look at it from his perspective — you were a stranger looking to upload his dance class and he had no idea how good you were — or what your intentions really were.
So, in the moment, he acted from a place of fear and asked you to connect with him first.
When you did connect with him — the moment had passed. He was busy/occupied/had forgotten about your conversation/didn’t really have much concern — any host of responses that were relevant to his life and of which you had no idea.
So, when he finally did respond, it was like a, ‘oh yeah, fine. there’s no issue here what was I so freaked out about’ response.
His initial reaction had nothing to do with ‘you’ and more to do with the ‘unknown’ of what you were doing.
NOw — having been in similar predicaments where people have sent me files and I’ve had trouble opening them — I get where he might have been coming from – I am not technology savvy and at times find it intimidating/frustrating/confusing — and it takes time. And sometimes I don’t have that time so I too get to a ‘whatever’ place because I don’t know the answer
and I hate not knowing the answer — but not enough to become techie savvy 
Is it possible Skylar that your p-radar is hypersensitive? Is it possible he was just being himself, which is not p or n or s or anything other than a guy who loves dance and was concerned someone was taking pictures of his clients dancing and he was feeling protective of them — which I understand. We have people coming into the shelter where I work all the time wanting to take pictures and video, etc. I am very selective in who can do it as we have to be a)conscious of the privacy and their right to privacy of our clients; and b)what is their intent? See — they could tell us — oh I just want to use it for my university class on homelessness, when actually, they want to use it to exploit our clients.
If you turn your situation to his perspective — he could have been wondering, who gave you the right to….. He doesn’t know you are a straight speaker. He knows you are a stranger with a camera. If he had had an encounter with a p and was a member of this board — you wouldn’t know that. He could, though, be looking at the world through p radar eyes and seeing someone looking to exploit his clients.
Can you ask yourself – am I really being open and honest when I see the whole world as filled with ps?
When you meet a stranger, do you say — I see you as a potential p because I see the world is filled with ps. So, any interaction we have is going to be based on my paranoia/hypersensitivity/belief, you are lying.
Or, do you say — Hi. It’s nice to meet you. I am willing to believe you are a unique human being like me, looking to find their path in this world of wonder. I am open and honest, and I look for openness and honesty in you. I hold myself 100% accountable for how I act in this relationship. I trust you to hold yourself 100% accountable for how you act. I reserve the right to walk away at any time based on my experience in this relationship….
See, when we filter the world through suspicious eyes, everything that happens is suspicious.
Perhaps it isn’t that people aren’t open and honest — your belief they aren’t open and honest might be what is tripping you up.
I believe there is good and evil in all of us. Some people have the potential to stay on the dark side. The majority of us are looking to stand in the light — my responsibility is to be my light — and to trust you to be yours — and to trust myself to walk away/speak up/wake up– when I feel someone else’s darkness clouding my light.
I look at the world through eyes of wonder — it is what makes my world such an exciting place where I want to wake up and open up every day to the limitless possibilities of freedom.
Can you see that in judging his actions to be a power play, you were seeing a stranger through your familiar eyes?
You are a woman of beauty and infinite power Skylar. Live it up. Live large and dance!
Hugs
Louise
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:51am
skylar says:
Kim, gorgeous stanza.
Louise,
First of all, no one is intimidated by me, especially at first glance. Physically, my bones are tiny and I’m thin. I’m 43 but still look like a little girl in some ways and people find me approachable almost to the point of crossing my boundaries (if I had any). Touching me, kissing me, hugging me, telling me personal things, are common occurances from people I don’t know well or have just met (both men and women). It doesn’t bother me, I find it amusing. I’m pretty sure people think I’m stupid when they meet me. I’m very non-threatening.
I respond in kind. I talk to people, pretty much like I post here on LF. I just say what I’m thinking and don’t bother censoring myself much. This causes people to open up even more to me. It’s interesting. But that didn’t happen with this guy.
He was brief, authoritive, defensive. Then he avoided answering. He was sending email from an iphone, so he knew what to do. I also sent him VERY explicit instructions. Then after a couple of weeks of no response, I asked again and he said that he liked it. It would have taken just a few seconds to type, “cool, thanks” after he watched it. Not 2 weeks later.
Before I knew what a P was, I wouldn’t have thought much about this guy’s behavior, but now I see manipulation occurring everywhere. Everyone is doing it all the time. I just don’t know why.
Anyway, I was thinking about this guy because I’m considering contacting him and asking if I can practice shooting his dance classes for more practice. I just wonder what kind of paranoid behavior he’s going to exhibit and how I can get around it.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 11:21am
lostnsad says:
lostingrief,
LMAO!!! I “love” your birthday song…
You know my like 3rd to last text to my ex was something along the lines of “I hope you get into an accident and don’t die…but become disfigured as that will REALLY kill you….”.
A bit harsh…but him just “dieing” isn’t nearly enough pain he needs to endure.
However, it kills me to know that I want to call him…That the thought of his arms around me makes me long for him even more… That’s when I get out the recordings of our fights and listen again to all his hurtful words, and read all his hurtful texts and tell myself that the man that I miss does not exist.
Maybe I should have a funeral for him…find all of the stuff that is was left behind and go to the beach and light it all on fire (I’d prob break some kind of law…lol). But maybe as the smoke drifts away whatever hold he had/s over me will be diminished just a bit more…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 11:24am
lostnsad says:
Or maybe I should take up self flogging and for every thought of him flog myself — I think of him at least 100 times in an hour…you’d think in a few days I’d be reconditioned to NOT think of him. But the more disgusting sick realization is that being with him and the pain he caused to me emotionally is SOOO much worse…yet I stayed!!! WHY did I stay?? That’s the part that pisses me off… Yes, he was a jerk an ass…whatever… BUT what made me stay…
1) Was it just how good looking he was
2) How charming he was (when he wanted something)
3) How good in bed he was
4) The thought that this time he really would change (all those false promises every time I took him back.)
5) The thought that I was strong enough to handle it and that setting him free meant that you were inflicting this ass on someone else…
So many thoughts; so many regrets; I just want to stop thinking about him and all this crap….I want to rewind to January 2007 and take my car somewhere else to get that tire fixed. I want to change that day and make it so I NEVER met him…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 11:31am
lostingrief says:
lostnsad: at first you will think about it, and him, all the time. part of the process, i guess. the ex-s/p/n on this end was also gorgeous, sexy as hell, charming, successful. he was also a whore, a thug, a non-stop liar, a blamer, an impulsive asshole. just before i threw his sorry ass out (he got some half-my-age girl pregnant), he was just starting to show skin at the back of his scalp — and was OBSESSED with looking at the little round balding patch. so, in addition to hoping he crashes and burns, i’m also hoping that his balding process is progressing nicely. he’s SO narcissistic and vain (mirrors are his best friend), he’ll suffer terribly as he grows older and loses his looks.
i miss his arms around me, too, but that’s a small price to pay for not having him around to tell me — when the mood struck — ”i don’t want THAT!” or ”why do you love me, i don’t even call you!” just gross, gross, gross.
your 1-5 are classic signs. none of it is real. just mirroring our beauty, and charisma and sexual prowess! they have nothing on their own. they are ALL big, empty lies.
i told him when he left that i wish i had never met him. he laughed and said, ‘yea, but then who would you have given your money, body and soul to!?’ i shit you not.
NC is our salvation. trust it. trust that he will fade from your mind and heart. do for YOU! and come here often. you will soon realize that ALL of us have gone through the same thing — the s/p/n ritual of take, chew and spit out. they are not human which is why they are so unforgettable. for me, it was like watching some unbelievable movie that repulsed me, yet i had to see the ending. the whole thing is sick. i don’t know why i was so attracted to the demon. and sometimes i don’t want to know. i just want to live for me and be well … and shine my light to those who may benefit.
shine on …
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 11:55am
lostnsad says:
lostingrief,
mirrors are his best friend…. lol
My ex couldn’t walk past a mirror without stopping and looking… It’d take him 3 times as long to get ready as it did me… But the funniest thing is when he’d go to the gym — all those mirrors — he’d spend like 20 mins working out and 40 looking in the mirror and then later complain as to WHY he wasn’t getting more muscle definition… LOL
Oh when mine left he had the nerve to tell me to get off my lazy ass, find a job and stop feeling sorry for myself…which is sooo ironic as he that for oh say about a year and half…. Yet a few months for me makes me an awful person…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:06pm
lostingrief says:
lostnsad:
they are truly nothing. i always thought he was the be-all; he had me convinced that he was important. everyone knows him. the guys all want to be like him and the girls all want to be with him. that’s all true. BUT … major BUT … he no longer has me fooled. i know him WAY too well. part of the reason i’m sure he had to move on. had his number and then some.
when i think of him now, i say aloud: you are SO far beneath me, i can barely see you. the more i do this, the smaller he becomes. he was never this big, important, swaggering king. he’s just a lost, childish, empty shell. a really nice shell to be sure, but the devil can’t come lookin’ all raggedy, now, can he!?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:19pm
M.L. Gallagher says:
lostnsad,
You are giving him a lot of power by focusing your thoughts on him.
One thing I learned through that relationship — I cannot change one millisecond of the past. I cannot change the fact I shook his hand at that first meeting and was entranced by his energy. I cannot change the fact I said yes when he invited me for a drink. I cannot change….
Anything.
End of subject.
Cannot change the past.
What I can change is today.
how I respond to memories of him. how I let the thoughts of him run through my mind.
What I can change is what I do today to love myself for all I’m worth.
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out — why did I stay. As if understanding the ‘why’ would change the fact I did.
I stayed, 4 years 9 months past the expiration date of that first hello.
Can’t change how long I stayed.
I can change how long I hold myself in thrall of the power of thoughts of him to invade my mind.
Breathe lostnsad — breathe and focus on loving, caring, nurturing thoughts of you.
Treat yourself with tender loving care. You have been abused. You deserve your loving attention.
N/C begins in our minds. When one thought of him enters your mind, turn and face it, embrace it and say, Oh look, there’s me thinking of him. Aren’t I amazing. And breathe. Breathe. Breathe.
Replace the next thought of him with the thought, Aren’t I amazing. And then keep moving. Go for a walk. Light candles. Take a bubble bath. Meditate. Listen to wild music and dance around your house.
Do not — and I repeat — DO NOT give value to his words by repeating them to yourself. His words are all lies. Accept He Is The Lie — and put your value in the words you say that are true about you. Beautiful. Wise. Caring. Funny. Creative. Loyal. And when words of self-doubt invade, gently embrace them and say, “Oh look, there’s me not being loving of me. Aren’t I amazing.” And Breathe.
You deserve so much more than his lies. You deserve your beautiful truth. You deserve to be free.
Blessings,
Louise
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:20pm
lostnsad says:
I’m going to post one of our last conversations…reading it I see how “stupid” I sound…mainly because I “still” don’t want him to leave…I didn’t want to be without him and I since I’m unemp I can’t afford to live by myself now….
Anyway this is long… but just reading how he would be nice and then be a total jerk… makes me sick… I left all the misspellings — I just changed our names…
Ex-P: I found a place
Ex-P: I think I’m leaving tomorrow
Me: No
Me: U don’t have to leave
Me: You don’t have to do this and be this way
Me: Why r u determinned you treat me this way?
Me: Why have you turned everything into such hate?
Me: So what is this really all about? Are you falling for one of these girls ur seeing?
Me: I’m so sick of being hurt by you
Me: Of the shit you have put me through
Me: It’s just whatever
Ex-P: Good get sicker
Me: I can never expect anything from you but disappointment
Me: Whatever. You treat me like shit and I’m the only one who stuck by you when you really needed it. And you know it!
Ex-P: I’m a nigger so why do u want to talk to a nigger
Me: Oh please. I say something stupid when u piss me the fuck off. No it isn’t right. But you have put me in a truely fucked up position. And regardless of what you say – you know it.
Ex-P: I might of anbd I’m truly sorry but I can live like this anymore
Me: Whatever
Me: You can’t live like this anymore… What a joke…
Ex-P: Bye have a good day
Me: Yeah… Wish you had said that over 2 years ago… When I could have.
Ex-P: Me too
Me: Oh please… You have gone up…
Ex-P: I’m sorry it had to be like this
Me: I’m the one that lost my life
Ex-P: Ok enogh
Ex-P: Enough
Me: Your sorry it had to be like this… Fuck you.. You took my life away.
Ex-P: I’m not going to be mean
Me: That would be a first
Me: And don’t forget you owe me at least $80 — $50 for cake from last night and $12 from the credit score. Also u need to go to ID and make it so my card isn’t charged. As well as la fitness
Ex-P: I payed u for the LA fitness
Me: I’m saying make sure they don’t bill me again.
Me: U owe me for the poker and the credit score… From yesterday
Me: And the credit thing will charge me monthly.
Me: I think ur lying about finding a place. I think ur either moving in with dwayne or some girl… But it’s ok…
Me: U always lie
Ex-P: So I’m leaving tomorrow
Ex-P: I found the nicest place
Me: Oh really
Me: So ur really going to do this to me
Me: Ur just going to walk out on me and fuck me over?
Ex-P: its either this or kill myself
Me: Oh please
Me: U have lost nothing
Me: Ur life is only better
Me: U fucked me over
Me: End of story
Ex-P: The stress
Me: U sat here and promised you’d take care of shit
Ex-P: And u know I lost my grandmother and u give me all this stress
Me: That I wouldn’t have to worry
Me: Omg… I lost my fucking life.
Me: And I was there for you…
Ex-P: No u wasnt
Me: And where were you the day of the funeral? You cared more about getting ur dick sucked by T vs being with ur family
Me: And yes I was there
Me: I was always there
Me: Did u get ur spins today?
Me: I need that $$ back
Me: So where is this place?
Ex-P: I’m not telling u
Me: Why the fuck not?
Me: Ur just an asshole
Me: Whatever
Me: U owe me $$ and getting my car fixed
Me: U fucked me over
Ex-P: U fucked urself u should of delt with the women
Me: You NEVER kept your word. Not once
Me: I could have ‘dealt with the women’ but u had to see XXX, keep talking to XXXX and taking things too far
Me: You played with my mind and my emotions
Me: You didn’t care once that you hurt me
Ex-P: Ill get ur car fix but if u try to hurt mr
Me: What do you mean?
Ex-P: Me
Ex-P: I will not fix it
Ex-P: I’m going to live alone and I’m scared to shit
Me: What do you mean ur gonna live alone
Me: What r u scared about?
Me: You’re leaving me in ruins
Me: FUCK YOU
Me: I have NOTHING lleft because of you
Ex-P: This is something I never did
Me: Credit
Me: Never did?
Me: Go to hell
Ex-P: Bye
Me: You should be scared… Because what you have done to me will come back to you times 3. That’s just life — you have a big debt to pay. And life will come and collect at some point…
Me: You can say bye and be an asshole all you want
Me: It doesn’t change what I did for you or that you took full advantage of it
Me: So fuck you and goodbye yourself
Me: Asshole
Me: And again.. I think ur lieing about finding a place. Ur prob moving in with a whore or dwayne.
Ex-P: No I’m not
Me: Yeah. Ur a liar. That’s ur only talent
Ex-P: O yea that’s why I sold a car today
Me: Again… Ur talent is lying… Selling cars is all about lying. Perfect fit!
Ex-P: Ur a mean person
Me: Oh yeah right
Me: I’m mean?
Me: No… Go walk by a reflective surface and you’ll see a mean, heartless, soulless person that only cares about himself.
Me: I’m just HONEST. Something you can’t comprehend.
Ex-P: I’m not living healtly
Ex-P: With the fighting
Me: You can never live healthy because you are a negative person. You lie… Which is negative. You see nothing wrong with your actions which is negative.
Me: You have no morals, no integrity, and no heart
Me: I hope life brings to you everything you brought to me…
Me: That’s all I want for you.
Ex-P: Whatever
Ex-P: I’m not coming home tonight
Ex-P: Ill pay u tomorrow
Me: What the fuck?
Me: Why not
Me: Why the hell r u doing this to me
Ex-P: Fuck u
Ex-P: U want to be mean
Me: I want to be mean
Me: Like really
Me: I don’t hold a candle to you
Me: I’m not being mean
Ex-P: So I be there tomorrow to get my shit
Me: I want my money tonight
Ex-P: I didn’t get the spins
Ex-P: So sorry u have to wait till tonight
Ex-P: Tomorroew
Ex-P: Rather
Me: Yeah but u don’t wait do you
Me: You want what you want when you want it. Regardless of who you hurt
Ex-P: I don’t have it sorry
Me: Yeah but you never have issues taking it
Ex-P: O god goodnight
Me: Oh god urself
Me: Loser
Ex-P: Ill be there at like 915 to get some cloths then ill bring u the money tomorrow
Me: No
Me: U aren’t welcome here
Me: I’ll leave some shit outside
Me: Ur a piece of shit
Ex-P: Ok u want to start that u whore
Ex-P: Ok
Ex-P: The war is on
Me: I’m not a whore
Ex-P: I tried to be nice
Me: Well look at what u have done and said
Me: U wouldn’t know nice
Me: U say ur leaving
Me: That u won’t help
Me: Me
Me: U won’t say where ur living
Me: Ur never nice
Ex-P: iu said I would
Me: The ‘war’. There is no ‘war’
Me: U said u would what?
Me: U treat me like shit
Me: And expect me to be happy about it
Me: Ok
Ex-P: Ok u know what pack my shit I’m taking it all tonight
Me: No
Me: U don’t get ur shit till u give me the .
Me: $$
Me: I don’t trust you
Ex-P: I’m sick of u ill call the cops
Me: And do what?
Ex-P: So u pick how u want it
Ex-P: Try me
Me: U give me the money tomorrow and get ur stuff then
Me: Stop with your threats
Me: They are old and over played
Ex-P: Lol I owe u 60
Me: No u owe me WAY more than that
Me: And it’s 70
Me: At least what u took yesterday
Me: U have no right to treat me this way
Me: But I should know better than to expect anything else from u
Ex-P: Ill be there tonight to get my shit and ill pack it myself
Me: U aren’t taking all ur shit till u give me the $$
Me: I dontt trust u to pay me
Me: U’ll just fuck me over again
Ex-P: Ill give u the 70 tonight
Me: What about my car and the other money
Ex-P: I don’t fucking have it now
Ex-P: I’m going to be on my own
Me: So the fuck what u took from me
Me: Find a way to give back and maybe life won’t bite u in the ass so bad
Me: Just leave me alone
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:20pm
lostingrief says:
lost: M.L. is right.
their words are meaningless. when their lips are moving, they are in LIE mode. you can’t replay his words and try to understand them. it will make you crazy. every time you try to unravel the knot, it will get tighter. stop trying to figure it out. dealing with a sociopath is – by definition – impossible to figure out.
re-read this as many times as necessary to realize you are WAY better off now that his sorry ass is gone.
be well. take care of yourself. maintain NC … no matter WHAT.
we are all here to help keep you on the track to spath-freedom.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:36pm
ann1961 says:
Skylar
You sound like me in so many ways. I feel the same way; I am plain spoken, tell the truth, frank, honest. It does seem like so many people hide, lie, want power, etc. I have tended to isolate myself lately because I just can’t stand it. However I think my life with my “P” made me more sensitive to other ppl’s behavior, esp power plays and lying. I think that is what you are experiencing too.
On your other post where you wondered if anyone else had this ‘magical thinking”. I think it is your strong faith that brings you these ‘miracles”, not magical thinking. I feel the opposite; I feel like I am all I have and ‘where are you God”? I have strong faith and pray alot, but He never seems to hear me. I wish just ONCE He would pull me out of a jam. I think it is a wonderful thing that you have such solid faith that you KNOW God is going to help you through. Maybe that is what more of us need to have, that strong of faith. You are supposed to ‘let go’ and let God take care of you. I wish I could ‘let go’ and trust Him more. I think that maybe that is what you have done, you just simply trust and have faith, and just like God promised us, it is working.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:48pm
blueskies says:
Louise is bang on. xx
I agree with everything she said in her above post.
I agreed with it when I first read similar advice in earlier posts when I came here, I knew it was right intellectually, but only just recently for me… it CLICKED. (I can tell you, it’s PURE JOY! It is like coming out of a prison, a prison made up of my own thoughts!)
REALLY clicked, I was no longer ‘going through the motions’ and saying the mantras and hoping they’d stick, and ‘resisting’ thinking about the various ‘ITS’ in my past,and why, why, why?
I got to a point where i just thought: I have done ALL of the thinking about them I can do, all the deconstruction, this hideous stuff is NOT me, these fights are not mine, this poisonous existence is not mine, this stuff is NOT mine, this stuff is THEIRS and they can jolly well keep it. I am DONE. A beautiful and joyus GOODBYE!:)
“I cannot change one millisecond of the past. I cannot change the fact I shook his hand at that first meeting and was entranced by his energy. I cannot change the fact I said yes when he invited me for a drink. I cannot change….
Anything.
End of subject.
Cannot change the past.
What I can change is today.”
BEAUTIFUL! BEAUTIFUL! BEAUTIFUL!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 12:57pm
lostnsad says:
Thanks so much lostngrief and M.L. — your words help… I’m driving myself crazy and it doesn’t help that since I’m unemployed I have nothing but TIME on my hands…so I just get lost in my thoughts which unfortunately are about him….
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 1:00pm
lostingrief says:
ann:
you have been pulled out of every jam you have ever been in, because … you are here.
we have all had so many challenges. and we are heard. and we go on another day. and somehow it all gets done and we learn another lesson.
i used to think that god never heard my prayers, until i looked back at everything i never thought i’d get through … and realize that i got through it.
this too shall pass …
blessings.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 3:23pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Louise, thanks for coming in.
You posts, like all your descriptions of how you handled this, just awe me. I could not have done that. The experience with the sociopath was too clearly related to other things in my life that I needed to work on. But your method is clearly the fastest, most positive route to getting on with your life.
And I think I’m going to try out your “aren’t I amazing” technique to deal with residual self-talk issues. Like if I start feeling insecure about something. Oh there I am feeling insecure again. Aren’t I amazing?
Kathy
feel like had I had to go slogging through the bad feelings to come out the other side. That kind of self-control of my thinking was just not in my power. And besides, I felt like there was another reason to do this intense processing that was larger than him. I felt like there was a reason he was in my life, to teach me something about myself that I really needed to know.
In this we’re different. You just brushed him off as a bad experience, and then went on to get over it in the most rapid and positive way possible.
And for me, the really powerful way about how you did this is that, while diminishing the meaning of his presence in your life, you also diminished the influence of his behaviors and words on your thoughts. Just curious, were you a meditator before the relationship ended? Or did you have some training that taught you to use these techniques? I really like them, and I think I’m going to try out to deal with negative self-talk.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 3:45pm
style1 says:
I feel sad and alone today..It is a beautiful day and I just worked out. I used to rush home and wash my hair so that we could go out.. today, I have nothing to do.. I watch TV, do things around the house…I feel rejected yet it was I that asked him to leave and when he did I felt like it was he that made the decision. The whole relationship was so confusing to me.. His kindness that really didn’t feel totally kind. His alway being there but my wishing that he was gone. Then he is gone and I miss the interaction. He got me so used to having him around. We ran around doing things alway busy.. Now, I feel alone and on the edge of the world and when I met him I was busy and did not feel alone.. I just feel confused… I don’t trust men and their motives.. I am tired of hearing them talk, tired of their boasting, tired of their sexual neediness… the wanting of it offering nothing in return of themselves. It seems all so what for? Am I meant to be alone.. is there a man that has depth? This man gave a good impression of it.. just after he moved in, I discovered that he was three months behind in his rent and that they had started eviction … I felt so used.. yet he talked and talked.. then later when I brought up that I didn’t feel loved since he was being evicted.. I felt like he was using me for a place to live.. he said that he was never evicted.. He twisted and turned things continually. Yet.. I just don’t know anymore… I feel strange… alone… without trust.. I am attractive, I turn heads, I workout .. why do I keep bringing men to me that use me? What is it about me?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 4:53pm
ann1961 says:
lostingrief, you are right. Finding this site was a huge blessing. I have learned so much, have learned that we all have experienced such similar things and I had felt so alone. Not anymore! It seems like EVERY person on here says something I can relate to.
Style1, you said you feel rejected yet you were the one who asked him to leave. Another example where I feel the exact same way! 2 months ago I asked my husband to leave, and he did, now I feel so lonely and devestated. It is bizarre isn’t it? I guess we know what we had to do, we did not want our “love” relationship to end up this way, and maybe what we miss is the dream, the fantasy. The one thing I find very difficult to deal with is the loss of HOPE for the relationship. Even though it was bad, I had a bit of ‘hope’ that someday he would see the light and change. I knew deep down he never would, but I still held onto the fantasy that someday he would ’see the light’ and face himself and change. I FINALLY have faced reality and let go of the hope. The loss of this HOPE is a big loss, it leaves this horrible empty place in your soul. Hope is something we take for granted, and when it is gone, it is a big loss. Maybe you are grieving the loss of hope, of your future dreams. I know that is where I am at right now. It is so hard, but going back with our ‘men’ would be so much harder, so destructive, and then we REALLY wouldn’t have any hope! Keep up the No Contact and mourn the losses of hope and future. But also, realize how fortunate we are to have the opportunity to start over, to make our lives so much better. If we stayed in the bad relationships that we were in, there truly WOULD be a loss of hopes and dreams! At least now we can start over and at some point, begin to be happy and safe again. At least we were smart enough to get out and realize the no win situations we were in. Weekends are so hard. I am thinking of you. How long ago did he leave?
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 5:50pm
style1 says:
He was leading me on a path to nowhere… but for awhile I believed what he said and the picture that he painted as he painted the picture of a life that all women want to have… He was tall, greying and handsome, me petite with dark hair.. we made that perfect looking couple.. but it was my life that we lived in… I made him look good is what one of my friends told me.. but it is the loss of the dream, the lie, the picture that I am missing… the perfect ‘looking’ couple living in my life… he brought little to the picture.. sure he worked and contributed but most of his income went to his ex and his kids and his past due bills .. he was playing catch up on my time.
So it’s the lie, the dream that I miss… were he here… I would be wanting him gone.. I wanted him gone just after he moved in … there were times we were happy.. but mostly I wanted him gone.. I want a man to create a life with not a man that moves into mine. Make sense?
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 6:05pm
lostnsad says:
Style and Ann,
I think what we morn is the “idea” of love that we have lost… We all watch romantic movies, read romantic novels, listen to fairy tales growing up of men and women falling in love forever… Finding that soul mate, finding that one person who gets you no matter what… We thought we found it, but we didn’t. And now we trust no one; ourselves most of all.
I find when I talk to anyone that I’ll have normal interaction and then later when I play back the interaction… I question everything. What did they mean by this or that… Were they lying? It’s so frustrating…
Ann — your comments about the loss of Hope is so true!! I too had hoped that he’d change (he claimed to so many times); would break down crying saying that he wanted to be different. That he wanted to be able to feel love… I don’t think that was an act; but I also know he isn’t just going to “change” not for me; not for anyone. Maybe someday he’ll get help for all of his ‘issues’ but seeing as there are so many women out there that are willing to fall for him…I doubt it as he’ll never be alone and have to do anything on his own… There will always be another victim.
Do any of you watch this silly show on TV called – The Dollhouse… I do mainly because there isn’t much to do these days BUT watch TV… I wish it was real… That I could go somewhere and that they’d suck out these thoughts these memories… Leave a clean fresh mental state…
I was looking at his photos today… I know I shouldn’t… That I should take everyone of them and burn them to a disk and put it in storage somewhere… But I can’t… Not just yet… I miss him so much that it’s silly. We didn’t even do a lot of things that I enjoyed… We’d go fishing or out to clubs (things he liked); but not many things that I really enjoyed…
I know Louise is correct and we can’t change the past. We can only live in the moment and know that the future will be changed; thereby changing our past and as time ticks by he’ll be farther and farther away… Yet, I’m having such a hard time changing “now” — even as much as this site is a help (nice to know I’m not the only fool….) it also means I’m still thinking of him…
Day 15 of No Contact… I dread the day he calls me, texts me, or emails me…yet everyday I wake up and wonder if today will be the day…
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 6:07pm
libelle says:
Dear Louise, thank you for your inspiring post. I did not think so much about my saying good bye to X! Food for thought, really. This thread has been a major eye opener for me this week!
Dear Kathy, I think that you refer to two different approaches towards psychology problems. It is somewhat slippery for me to make a statement as I am not a psychologist, nor have I formal training as board qualified psychiatrist.
There are different schools of handling psychological problems.
There is good old autosuggestion by Emil Coué: ” (February 26, 1857 – July 2, 1926) was a French psychologist and pharmacist who introduced a method of psychotherapy and self-improvement based on optimistic autosuggestion.
The application of his mantra-like conscious autosuggestion, “Every day, in every way, I’m getting better and better” (French: Tous les jours à tous points de vue je vais de mieux en mieux) is called Couéism or the Coué method. The Coué method centers on a routine repetition of this particular expression according to a specified ritual, in a given physical state, and in the absence of any sort of allied mental imagery, at the beginning and at the end of each day. Unlike a common held belief that a strong conscious will constitutes the best path to success, Coué maintained that curing some of our troubles requires a change in our unconscious thought, which can only be achieved by using our imagination. Although stressing that he was not primarily a healer but one who taught others to heal themselves, Coué claimed to have effected organic changes through autosuggestion” Wikipedia
My mom told me this when she noted that I was very unsecure as a teenager, but it did not help me at all.
In my psychology courses I learned to know a method called :
” Gestalt therapy, focuses more on process (what is happening) than content (what is being discussed). The emphasis is on what is being done, thought and felt at the moment rather than on what was, might be, could be, or should be.
Gestalt therapy is a method of awareness, by which perceiving, feeling, and acting are understood to be separate from interpreting, explaining and judging using old attitudes. This distinction between direct experience and indirect or secondary interpretation is developed in the process of therapy. The client learns to become aware of what they are doing psychologically and how they can change it. By becoming aware of and transforming their process they develop self acceptance and the ability to experience more in the “now” without so much interference from baggage of the past.
The objective of Gestalt therapy, in addition to helping the client overcome symptoms, is to enable him or her to become more fully and creatively alive and to be free from the blocks and unfinished issues that may diminish optimum satisfaction, fulfillment, and growth. Thus, it falls in the category of humanistic psychotherapies.” (Wikipedia)
Rapid eye movement is also very effective, I learned from Oxy. A psychologist who is working with trauma patients has also confirmed it to me (he does not know how it works, but it seems to do deblocking old trauma to have access to them to be able to work with them, but one has to be cautious not to deblock too much trauma at once, as the blocking happened at the time for a reason!).
And some times there is good old soul-archeology necessary with the help of Mr Freud or Mr Jung.
I do really not know which method is best; maybe depending on the trauma, the circumstances and the resources available?
For me nonviolent communication WITH MYSELF was an eye opener as well. I did the course 12 years ago, and did not know how to integrate all the stuff. Now all the jigsaw – parts fit very well!
Dear Lostandsad. I can so relate. You made a great step by wiriting all the weird stuff down and making an inventory. It boils down to that he is all the other P/N/S in LF: they see us a escort for free! Nothing more!
As soon as I found out THAT (in fact he told me frankly so and gave it in writing much later too), I could leave him saying that the escort girl was now going, never to return. I did not realize at that time that it was the final good bye. Of course I expected a phone call or the like afterwards to sort things out and that he was coming back to me under MY conditions, with mutual respect and commitment, as I would have any lost self respect in staying after having faced the escort-reality. But there was NADA. It was killing me, I felt also abandoned although I had left him.
I called my sister for advice, and she pointed out to me the word “psychopath”, and so I found LF. And here I am, it is two years now since we met. This autum is far less poisoned with fond memories, as I could replace them last year with different, better ones (the honeymoon of 3 months was in autum 07). I even held a private funeral on an island in Sweden last september. I left him there, at least I tried… Sometimes he is still hunting me in my thoughts, out of the blue. It gets weaker though.
You did mention time. This is the one and only remedy! Read, and blog and vent here, but do not call, mail, drive by, it will get better with time.
Dear Style: so sorry that you “qualify” but your post shows that the X in your life deserved just what he got from you: a final good-bye! Hang in there, it will get better, read and vent and rant, BUT DO NOT CONTACT HIM!! Take your time to find out
“why do I keep bringing men to me that use me? What is it about me?”
I wish you courage and strenght to face these questions. It is a life lesson, and a very tough one. As it is an old LF-saying: the truth will set you free, but first it pis.es you off!”
Once you found the answer to THAT question, your life will be incredible and wonderful!
Dear Ann and Lostingrief: about believing: it is incredible that the strength lies within ourselves, and that we can get good examples from fellow -LF who can inspire and give courage and can give the feeling of “just not being alone”, as there is always someone in cyberspace, even when nobody seems to notice the post. I am sure there are readers who get something out of it, as I do not often post. It would be better of course if this site has no necessity to exist if N/P/S will be extinct; for the time being LF is a lifeline for me!
I wish you all a wonderful sunday!
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 6:29pm
style1 says:
I have been through all sorts of therapy in the past.. I am a stress management consultant.. and when it hurts it hurts.. I let this man into my life .. he is gone.. and I am left with the memories of where we went, etc. The weird thing is that I never was that into him.. it was just like it happened directed and guided and pushed by him.. I am just tired of men and their agendas..
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 7:22pm
lostnsad says:
Style1,
You say you weren’t that into him. I remember when I met my ex — I thought he was too young plus I had just ended a 14 year relationship about 6 months before and I WAS NOT looking for anything serious. I was dating and “having fun” and that was all I wanted. I was seeing like 3 guys at the same time…being a total “man” or Samantha and have blast like I had never had before. HE was the one that started with the whole…I really like you, I have feelings for you, I want you to only be with me, I want to marry you, I want to be with you…and so on…
At first I said no, I wouldn’t even go out with him; then I did and I remember even telling a friend of mine that I just didn’t “feel” it and wasn’t going to see him again. Then he’d pop up with these CRAZY stories… Like the 2nd week that we’d been “hanging out” he shows up at my door with this story of how his “roommate” stabbed him and he had to leave, his “roommate” destroyed his phone so he couldn’t call and didn’t have anywhere to go…
What I didn’t know at the time and didn’t know for another 5 months… Is that it was his girlfriend at the time. He had told me that he had ‘just moved’ to FL…. HA HA HA — he had moved down 8 months before and was living with this girl that he literally DROVE insane… She was already a little off so it didn’t take him long to push her over the edge… But she did stab him and later I found out that she said he was choking her and I never totally believed her story… However, by the end of my experience with him — I turned into someone I didn’t know… Did things and raged so greatly that I see her and her story in an entirely different light.
It’s sad how we can’t listen to others and their warnings. Had I listened to her — I wouldn’t be in this predicament today.
That is another things I learned during this….how UNTRUSTWORTHY women are. I have been exposed to sides of women that I find to be so disgusting. My faith in women and what we stand for has been greatly altered.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 7:50pm
style1 says:
Yes..I was just going out for the fun of it curing the holidays.. I met his mother. She like me sooo much.. and it turned it into promises of forever… And his last wife died six months before we met.. and he met her on the internet and married her in one month.. and he claimed that one of his wives came after him with a knife.. there was always something wrong with the women never him…
And he asked me to marry him in the first month and I said let’s wait and see. THis is going toooo fast … I don’t move this fast.. and in four months he is living with me… his mother is in a nursing home and I find out that he was about to be evicted from this large house that he was renting… he knew what he was doing.. I was a woman, no children, moving into a new house.. and he was after me hot and heavy. I was never that into him.. he was like a companion that did stuff for me around the house.. brought me flowers, took me to dinner… then he just grew into this engagment thing.. his mother died and I saw her more than he did in the end. I am just releasing all this apparently this weekend and this site is helping as I read and read..
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 8:46pm
lostnsad says:
Style1,
Mine moved in 4 months after I met him as well. AND it was always the “other” women that were a problem. Like…I couldn’t be added to his myspace account because of an ex that was a wack job and he had to get a restraining order out on her. Later after I found out all the “real” stuff… I realized that he had merged many exs into one person and a lot of what he said may have been “true” but it was all twisted into this “one” person that didn’t exist.
He was also heavy on PDA… Hold hands, arm around you, when we were out — he NEVER looked at other women… He was all about me… I’d never experienced that before.
I remember I went to Chicago for work in June of ‘07 and my roommate told me how my ex never came home. Found out he rented a hotel room with that ex girl that stabbed him. They couldn’t go to her place ‘cuz her roommate wouldn’t let him in the house…
I was sooo stupid! No, matter HOW many signs I had in the beginning — I ignored them all. But ignoring my gut was the worst… I knew something wasn’t right but then I let myself get caught up in this reality he created…
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 8:59pm
lostnsad says:
GRRR…. I just found a job posting that I KNOW I can do… But I’m soooo scared. I’m scared of my mind still being twisted up in my ex and not being able to focus on this new opportunity. But IF I can get an interview — I know I could get this job. It would be so fantastic. I need something to keep me busy and give me a purpose again in life…
But I have this fear… It just wells up and paralyzes me… I HATE THIS!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 9:43pm
ann1961 says:
My problem is that my husband and I were married for 30 years, had 2 kids, and the ENTIRE time we were married, he was awful to me. I grew up in a dysfunctional family with 3 selfish brothers. The more I read this site, the more I realize that at least one of my brothers fits the psychopath description. I am Catholic, my parents were devout Catholic, plus I am a nurse, and my parents were and taught me to be totally against divorce. So I stuck it out and stuck it out, and waited WAY TOO LONG to take action. It took getting sick and being sick (physically) for me to realize that I HAD to do something, IF i wanted to live. The main problem with my situation was all of the LYING. Bold face lies, lies right in front of the kids, other women, so many times, caught red handed, and he never would stop. It was all so heartbreaking. However, the hardest part, and I have not even mentioned this on LF yet, I have only been on here about a month, is that when I went NC with my husband, he completely stopped all communication with our kids. He had a very close relationship with our 2 daughters, until they started becoming adults (they are 22 and 24 now). Things started becoming more and more strained between he and the girls, when they got old enough to see him abuse me. They threw it up in his face, how he was treating me, and it made him very angry. He BLAMES, he cannot take responsibility, so he likes to imagine and tell everyone everything is my fault. But our daughters know better. Now he will not talk to them AT ALL, and our oldest daughter is expecting our first grandchild. She is heartbroken. Even though they are angry at him for all the things he has done, he is STILL their father, and they want him to ‘care’ about them. I feel awful about this whole situation. Mainly, I wish I could understand what is going on. WHY would he devalue and discard our daughters, along with me? Does anyone understand the dynamics of this? I would certainly like to understand this.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:44pm
lostnsad says:
ann1961,
I can’t give advise on the part of his kids and how he treats them now…
But I can tell you that my ex has a 9 yr old girl — absolutely amazing girl — she lives in AZ with her grandmother (moms side) and he does NOTHING to take care of her as he should! Sure he calls every now and then and the last 3 summers he got to have her because of ME… But when he has a few extra hundred $$ — he isn’t sending it to her — he’s in the poker room. He doesn’t call her near as often as he should. It’s amazing how much love she has for him when he shows so little.
That was just one of MANY things that would drive me nuts about him.
And don’t beat yourself up about being a Catholic and not believing in divorce… Heck I’m not religious at all — always thought of myself as this free spirit that could take on anything… and NOT take shit from anyone… But I failed myself when it came to him and his lies … there were LOTS of women — many that I knew about. I even did an “open” relationship with him but that wasn’t enough. He had to have the girls fall in love with him. I stretched even my VERY liberal ideals to please him. He used to tell me that if I could just “deal” with the women then he’d never leave me… BUT he NEVER got the point I always tried to make in that every time he went out with someone else he was hurting me and leaving me… but he didn’t care. He just wanted what HE wanted and F**k me and my feelings. I was only here to be his “maid” (that’s how I felt even more than an escort), and to take care of HIS needs.
He never ONCE stopped to think of me and mine…and after awhile…neither did I.
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Saturday, 24 October 2009 @ 10:59pm
ann1961 says:
Men and their ‘other women’ and their LYING. I could have great black and white evidence about him being with other women, and he would STILL look right into my eyes and LIE. The lies were ludicrous and absurd. I had all the proof anyone could ask for, and he STILL denied what he had done. It amzes me how stupid I was. Well I wasn’t stupid, I knew he was lying, it is just that I STAYED with him all those years with EYES WIDE OPEN and I KNEW he was lying and I kept turning the other cheek. I kept thinking he would ‘change’/ HA!
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 2:45am
lostnsad says:
Here is a story for you…
I had purchased my ex a fishing pole (like $80) as a gift because he likes to fish… He made me return it so he could have the cash for what he TOLD me was to go play poker… Then he took MY car left… Never answered his phone or any of my texts all night — and via some of my investing … I knew he didn’t go play poker. I knew he called this girl he was trying to get in with — well he finally shows up at like 2 am. Saying he played poker all night (yeah right with a $100 — NOT!!!). Anyway I KNEW he was lying but he spun such a good lie that I had a niggle of doubt…just that plausible denial… you know…
Well…I get down to my car and the DUMB ass didn’t throw away the parking ticket. I knew where this girl lived and it was a ticket for near her place…. So I march back upstairs – telling him that I just want honesty (which is all I EVER wanted…) and that he had one more chance… He STILL lied… So I showed him the ticket and he was like — oh yeah… I met her for a drink… I was like oh really — so right then and there I called her… Left her a message on her VM… He freaked out started yelling and said you better not have just left that message — I said I did and he hauled off and slapped me across the face… needless to say… The day just got worse and the rest of the story is just ridiculous… I did throw him out and didn’t speak for to him for about 4 days… But in the end I caved AGAIN to his lies and false promises…. When he cried it was so real… How could any human look into those eyes so filled with pain and not be moved…. It’s SICK how fake they were…
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 3:14am
lostnsad says:
btw — isn’t it nice that he took another woman out in my car, with my $$ that I had used to buy a gift for him… Took her to sushi, to the beach…
Oh his other thing was he’d spin these lies about going to NYU — meanwhile he dropped out in the 9th grade, he had told his one that he worked at a car dealership (which was true…) BUT he was in sales… he told her he was in finance and made like $250+ a year… LMAO NOT!!! Up to then he had never made more than like 15 a year….
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 3:20am
libelle says:
Lostnsad, yes there are tons of therapies, and I just wanted to point out that there are different approaches (ignoring the problem alltogether and do self hypnosis, aknowledging the problem but not working with them but to look how to go on NOW, and do digging in the soul and resolve one problem after the other as they emerge). I personally have been to a psychologist very briefly for two sessions, regarding my “relationship issues” 12 years ago, because I wanted children but had no relationship. It did not work and I came to the conclusion that it is my fate to live without children. I did mourn quite a lot, but it has passed.
And I did all my life lots of courses in psychology because I had the sensation that something was not right. Not one of the courses was a great help for me personally, it was like collecting pieces of a big jigsaw-game without any template. Only the encounter with X and all this pain was the trigger that FORCED me to go towards the path of healing,. Now I can put the pieces in place, and can begin to see the “big picture” called my life. In hindsight I am kind of thankful (in a strange way though) for having met him. The pain I experienced with him and after having left him was so devastating I could not go on as before, with all this brushing over, turning the eyes off the dreadful things I observed and not hearing the gruesome words. I had to look at it, ALL OF IT, and I realized that there was HUGE heaps of crap all around me, and I finally could see where it came from. One by one the pieces burried deep in my soul came up, and still do, I have to ruminate, digest, spit out. It is a very physical thing as well, not at all intellectual. LF was a huge help, having found great people here sharing the same experiences. It is very strange for me that the stories are so “cooky cutter”-like. I did not have a therapist, in my country it is still kind of a stigma if you have been “in therapy” besides “personal growth matters”.
It is very bad when it hurts, but it is A LOT BETTER THAN BEING NUMB!
Lostnsad, go for this job, if you really like it! Do not let the creep reign a minute longer in your life! I am sure you will make it, as you have found LF! Healing/redirecting/ refocussing from this experience is a lifelong experience, and you can’t wait until the end of the days to leap. Even if it sounds impossible at the moment. There are huge, very healthy parts in you left, I can sense it in your brief posts, straight to the point! And when you feel weak spots, come here and vent and rant and so on, it really helps just knowing having a place to go with all these crappy stuff. Let it out in cyberspace.
I grew up in a dysfunctional family. I realized with the help of LF that it is a pedigree cluttered with P/N/S. I once had to do “biography work” in a psychology course and felt such great shame about all the creeps being my ancestors and could not present the pedigree because I weeped and felt so embarrassed. The good thing is that because of all these creeps (mainly men) all women had to learn professions even when it was not custom then for women to learn ANYTHING because “women get married “. Nope, my female ancestors knew that men are unreliable!
My mother is also a Catholic, who “stayed because of the children”, but she is also a huge narcissist (so it was because of US she HAD TO STAY!) Father is a P, at almost 80 years still having his women around him and doing his tricks. I confronted them and have made my peace with them, and I have been able to emotionally detach from them.
As for children: my sister has a child with her X (also a P/N!), and he left my sister when the girl was 7 months old, and since then he did not aknowlege even that she exists (when he saw a picture of her at his parent’s home he wanted it to be put down because his new wife does not know that he has another daughter!) Needless to say that he never payed anything, and he even took the baby swing with him when he left. My sister has promised her daughter to meet him when she turns 16 years old, and that is sufficient for her at the moment. And maybe it is better so than to have all this turmoil with figthing adults.
My brother (who is a kind of P as well, I think) has three children from two women, and the older two get hardly aknowledged, he sees them rarely and he treats them not very nice. It is heartbreaking as they are absolutely adorable. (the children I would have dreamed of having had!).
Ann, I think your X discarded his daughters because they know him without the mask. Sad, but that is what they do, no remorse, no feelings. Maybe you can give them the link to LF? It was a huge relief for me finding out that it was not MY fault, because they do what they do, and it is all about THEM!
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 3:25am
style1 says:
Reading these posts are so helpful. Mine was always holding my hand and putting his arm around me in public. A friend remarked it was like he was wanting to make sure that everyone knew that you were his. It felt creepy, too close. too much. Everything about him was too much. Too much talk about love, promises, spiritual things. He wanted me to learn to meditate like he does and I had no interest. I feel close to God and don’t feel that I need ritual. I am feel free in that connection.. like a previous post remarked. Now, that I think about it, he was trying to intervene in my connection to God. He wanted to possess me and I wouldn’t let him. I did let him in my life but I held out. And I am thankful that I had this awareness. This was the most bizarre relationships, he had less than any man I have ever been with and he talked about money all the time. I didn’t really feel loved, but he talked about love all the time. He talked about spirituality and did ritual but I didn’t feel that he was and never really could feel close to him. He was all contrived an act of how he ‘thought’ things ’should’ be. It is freaky and were he not handsome with a certain degree of class, no one would pay him any attention. He is a lying blowhard. A con.. and I bought it for while and I feel ashamed that I did. I want real and now, not lies and someone’s burdens that I take care of .. I was just plain conned by a spiritual con.. but I didn’t totally buy it.. I held out and he saw that I wasn’t going to buy it and he went on.. when I confronted him with the truth of him.. he moved on.. and called me negative. Truth is negative to him. He lives in illusions and delusions and I don’t like it there.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 10:31am
lostnsad says:
urg… I’m having doubts again… they creep into my mind and won’t let go… I’m trying to ignore the whispers, the feeling of dread, the longing of missing him…
While I haven’t spoken to him since the 9th he is still a “friend” on my FB. I refuse to delete him as I don’t want him to know that some of this little comments are getting to me… His last two where Loving life!!! AHHH!! and today was Life is great!!! AHHH!!!
I “KNOW” him and I know he is shocked that I haven’t called or contacted him. He is posting these comments to try and get at me. He has done it in the past… And yes, I do want him to contact me… Because I want to prove to myself that I can control myself. That I will win and not give in not by calling him first and by having the “control” to resist when he contacts me… I feel like I’m living with that proverbial other shoe to fall syndrome…
I may very well fail, but I’m holding out hope that I can prevail.
I know what my down fall is with him and it’s sex… Sex was SUCH a part of our lives and in very kinky out there ways… I tried hooking up with a guy since he left but I just couldn’t get into it. When I’m alone it’s him I think of…
So I guess in the end I am failing at this no contact… But I am trying…
And to those that say I should delete him off of FB. Yes, I KNOW I should, but his sister and mom and daughter are all on there. I guess I could delete all of them; but what is the point? If I can’t face my addiction (that’s how I’m viewing this) then I’m not really succeeding.
Do any of you watch SYTYCD? This past season there was a piece that just ripped me open to the fact that I was addicted to him…maybe not even in love at all….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU9i2iQRvcw
This is just AMAZING!!! The fact that someone can choreograph such emotion into such movement and then these dancers … dance with such passion — is so amazingly beautiful.
I cry every time I see it.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 12:29pm
libelle says:
Dear Lostnsad. I think he is not shocked at all but he tries to get a hold on you to CONTROL you again. And then maybe he will refuse to have sex with you anymore alltogether (that was what the X inmy life threatened, seing me as escort but in the same breath telling me that he could go without it, or with a man or so). What when you just stop going to Facebook? Doing cold turkey is very hard, and I recommend when you have these creepy feelings to come here and vent and do some exercise or clean the kitchen or the attic or whatever, but DO NOT CALL HIM!!!!
I did email him after he contacted me, and it got much worse, because he did a big dumping on me, touching ALL my weak spots in three sentences.
A propos failing: at the National portrait galllery in London there is a portrait of Samuel Beckett, and a quote I instantly adopted:
“Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.”
That is why we are allowed to be human! Do not be too hard on yourself! There is a very good article by Oxy on this subject I can warmly recommend : http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ing-human/
Do delete/trash out when you are ready to do it. Every thing has its pace, and some times we have to repeat mistakes to REALLY GET IT, to fail better.
((((Hugs))))
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 1:21pm
Stayingsane says:
thanks. So beautiful. Crying. It’s okay because it tells me I feel beauty, I can feel depth and so many meaningful things….The ex P is existing in a world where he feels nothing. The only fear I have is that they will win out and we will be extinct.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 1:46pm
style1 says:
Take your mind off of him and onto you.
If you are alone, enjoy it.. enjoy where you are.. that is where I am now..
I am alone, healing, reading, being quiet, in preparation for what lies ahead not in the past.
They have a tendency to just move on.. and never look back..
If you continue to think, miss, and long for too long then you are giving them power over you..and that is what they want and wanted in the first place.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 1:55pm
lostnsad says:
Style1,
I agree about giving them the power. But I know him well… He never really moves on… He might wait a week, a month or a year, but he ALWAYS looks up his exs. He did it while with me. Every girl he was ever with he got back in contact with. He says it’s just to say hello and see what’s up. But it’s really just to play with heads because that is what gets him off. He can only feel when he is playing puppet master to with someone else’s emotions.
I am alone; I’ve been reconnecting with some of my new and old GFs. It’s been nice… Rediscovering that aspect of my life that I lost.
But right now in this moment… I am struggling with calling him. I know he is at work and I just want…something that will never be. Even if he were normal… Once it’s over; it’s just over…
It’s just with him (and I’m sure with everyone here) they became such a dominating factor in every aspect of you life that it’s hard to just be yourself. Know who you are anymore.
And NOT to wish that the fairy tale that they tried to create and succeeded in creating for a while — is all false…
Let me ask — in anyone in a happy love and respect filled relationship? Do you know anyone who is? Does it even exist?
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 2:33pm
style1 says:
Don’t call him.. Call someone else..
Who knows who is happy or not in life, in a relationship or in any other way???
Stop worrying about others..
Take care of yourself. Happiness is actually in you and is your responsiblity… not someone elses.. or circumstances..
I know.. now, you want to scream Shut up!
But you can be sad, grieving, lonely and still me happy..
know that you are okay without him… better off without him…
and that real life is better than some old fairytale that you will wake up from eventually…
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 3:55pm
skylar says:
lostnsad,
Don’t contact him, wait until he contacts you and then say,”Wow, it’s amazing the power I have over you. You’re like, addicted to me, you can’t stay away. That’s always been that way with all the men I’ve known. There is something about me that no one can resist.” etc..
Be convincing. That way he will work twice as hard to show that he ISN’T interested in you and then he’ll go away, permanently.
After that, everytime he ever calls you, for the rest of your life, just say the same thing.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 5:00pm
skylar says:
lostnsad,
WOW! that video made me almost cry too! Amazing and powerful portrayal of everything we write about here on LF!
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 5:08pm
lostnsad says:
Skylar…
HUGS!!!! You made me laugh… I’m NOT calling him… But I am using a really HOT very much YOUNGER man to distract my attentions right now…. lol — so so so bad of me…
And that video is amazing!!!! Mia Michael’s is one of a kind….
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 5:26pm
lostnsad says:
BUT unlike the Ps we have dealt with — I’m very upfront and to the point about what I’m about. I think it freaks some people out how brutally honest I am about what I want and expect…. lol
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 5:29pm
skylar says:
whoooohooo.
A woman after my own hear, LnS, me too, I tell it like it is and my FWB is ok with that.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 5:43pm
ThornBud says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 6:12pm
amber says:
I have found this website just in time. I’m sitting at my computer in tears, because I now know it’s time to say good-bye FOR GOOD to the man that I feel in love with 4 years ago. I remember the man I feel in love with-the charming, sweet, witty, charasmatic gentleman. Oddly enough, he told me right from the start that he knew he wasn’t such a good person, that he destroyed anything he touched, but I didn’t see that side-just yet. He said I saved his life, he had finally met someone who gave him a reason to wake up in the morning and continue living, that I was his angel, that he had never loved anyone as much as he loved me, and he wanted to change for the better. I believed every word, was beyond flattered and I was hooked. Slowly, I noticed stupid little lies and before I knew it, things snowballed into the hell I am living today. I now know the truth, little by little it all came to light, and I feel in love with a married man with children at home, a drug addict/alcoholic, compulsive liar, habitual cheater, self-destructive Sociopath. Knowing these things, you would think that saying good-bye would be the easiest thing for me to do. We’ve taken breaks before, and just when I feel like I’m free, he always shows back up and knows just what to say or do to make me feel sorry for him and take him back. I still don’t know what it is that I’m hanging on to??? Maybe it’s the thought of those distant but few memories I have of happier times, hoping that he will “wake up” and realize that he’s hurting me and will love me enough to stop, or if I love him enough, he’ll change?? Or maybe because he keeps coming back, I think he realizes he loves me and can’t live without me?!? But I know he’s NEVER going to change. I know that saying good-bye is MY only option at this point, I just wish it didn’t hurt so bad. I’ve done everything I could to love, support and try to help him change, in turn he’s sucked the life out of me and taken complete advantage of my entire being. I now know there is no greater power than the power of saying goodbye. Thank you for your writing, it has helped me a lot. I’m glad to know I’m not the only one.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 7:50pm
ThornBud says:
Dear amber, i am sorry that u became new member! From the other hand, i am happy that u are here, within wonderful compasionate people. Ur story is clasical here, as many others, but there is way out, there is light!
U chosed not to see red flags, now u are blessed with another chance to chose – chose it wisely, my dear, chose LIGHT instead of darkness.
He will keep coming back, like vampire, to suck every drop of ur being. Don’t let him do that. Read here and go NO CONTACT with him!
U don’t have to tell him goodbye, instead say goodbye to ur suffering, ur pain and hurtings. NC…NC…NC…and read here.
None of us believed pain will stop at the begining, BUT IT DOES STOP, with time. Stay strong and be well!
Love and hugs to u !
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 9:01pm
shabbychic says:
Amber, welcome to LF, glad you found this website, I hope you will stay with us and heal right along with us, I have found the support invaluable. It has been a learning experience for me also, not just learning about “them” but learning about myself. He is not going to “wake up”, he is not going to change, you have to change — that’s the hard part! There was an article a short while back that said your question about “if he keeps coming back… does that mean he loves me?” is one of the most common questions asked, and the answer was “no”. I looked for the article but I couldn’t find it. Reading the articles would really be great for you, you can find the archived articles listed by month on the left hand side of the page. You deserve better for yourself… and you’ve made the first step!!! You’re going to be ok. Please post again!
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 10:47pm
ErinBrock says:
Did anyone happen to catch the movie tonight on LIFETIME called ‘Unstable’……
OMG….welcome to our lives!
If you didn’t and have a chance to see it another time…..watch it.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:06pm
skylar says:
http://www.mylifetime.com/on-t.....ble/video#
Wow Erin, looks really good, but I don’t have cable.
Now that I can see narcissism everywhere, especially in novels and scripts I have to wonder, is awareness growing?
I’m watching “the brothers bloom” for the second time. It is ingenious, when watched for the second time.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:17pm
amber says:
Thanks ThornBud,
I am happy to know that there are other people out there that feel the same pain as I am feeling. All of my close friends are in loving and amazing relationships and just don’t have a clue to the pain and suffering I have been through. They actually think that I’m the crazy one for allowing him back every time. Maybe they’re right, but they don’t have a clue what it’s like to be sucked in and trapped by a relationship with a S. It’s a viscous cycle that I wish upon not even my worst of enemies. He burned me for the last time this past Wednesday and I PROMISED myself and him that there will be ZERO contact on my end. I’ve had his # blocked and hope that that will keep him away. And I do know that I have to say goodbye to him to say goodbye to my suffering, pain and hurting. As long as he is gone for good, I will be free. I am looking forward to LIVING my life again and being happy without him. Thank you for your kind words and support. They mean more to me right now than anything.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:18pm
amber says:
Thanks shabbychic,
I will look for that article. Just being able to be in a forum where I can be so honest and not judged is the most important part of this healing process for me. I know I’m in for a long and hard road, but it can’t be any worse than the road I was going down. I too agree that this has been a learning experience for myself. I now he will never “wake up” or change, and that is why I’m making the stand to rid my life of him. I know I deserve better and thanks for being so welcoming. I really do appreciate it.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:23pm
lostnsad says:
Amber,
Not only did my friends NOT understand but many of them cut me out of their lives. Mine only left a little over 2 weeks ago and I struggle every day… Wanting to call him… Hoping he calls me…
But trying to really stand firm.
Sometimes it feels like it’s getting better and then I have a day like today… Where I actually typed a text message, but only saved it — I didn’t send it.
Then I come here and type and type and type — hoping that if I get it out of me…. The need to contact him will diminish…
So stay strong and come here and write whatever you want…. Don’t worry about sounding stupid or like a fool…. ‘cuz we have ALL been there.
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Sunday, 25 October 2009 @ 11:51pm
shabbychic says:
lostnsad,”stay strong”, good advice, I still have good days and bad days too, good to know you’re all out there to help!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:03am
amber says:
Stay strong lostnsad. I totally know what you’re going through. Wondering if he’s going to call. But promise it’s not worth the pain and agony it is going to cause you. DON’T SEND THE TEXT!! Erase it. I’m sorry your friends weren’t there for you, but that’s what this site is for. To help you get through the healing process, and hopefully without him in your life you can rekindle those friendships you’ve lost.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:14am
lostnsad says:
I’m driving myself nuts!!! I want to call him SO bad. I miss his smell, his smile, and his laugh. Yes, I know that it’s all BS. I KNOW he is talking to his hag and about 5 other women. Moving on with his life like I never existed.
WHY is it so hard for me to accept what he really is all about. WHY can’t I see the ugly in him. I ‘know’ it’s there. I mentally know all of this…. but I don’t FEEL it or at least it doesn’t overshadow or wipe out the need, want, and love I feel for him. The longing…. I WISH I could take something to make it all go away. And yes, there are “drugs” out there but I refuse to take them as it’s a just fake — the way I feel is still there underneath. Plus I hate the sluggish and detached way they make me fill.
I’m trying so hard…I do have moments when I feel fine and things are clear and the longing is gone. Then when I least expect it — WHAM — the longing hits… I feel like my skin is crawling and something is trying to escape. That if I could just slice my skin open it’d be released…. (don’t worry I don’t cut…but I totally understand those who do now….)
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:07pm
witsend says:
lostnsad,
Maybe you have to start treating this as an addiction. (especially in your head)
It really is, an addiction where you are right now in early recovery. You are “in love” with the illusion he created himself to be. Not the REAL him.
An addict always refers to going back out (after a period of recovery) as “chasing that first high”.
Because the addict is ALSO addicted to the illusion the drug created that “first time”.
As he continued “using” the drug….Reality presented itself. The addict might have found himself, penniless, homeless, without family….ALL the painful but real things drug/alcohol addicten can do to us in real life. But he is “fixated” how that drug felt to him the FIRST time he used it. The illusion, not the reality.
Read some of the articles again and read the ones that really you can identify with. Pointing out how the Toxic person “creates” this illusion, so you may identify that it really isn’t who he IS that you are missing but what you wanted him to BE. (The illusion he created for you early on in the relationship).
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:33pm
shabbychic says:
lostnsad, there are days I just feel like pulling my hair out and turning myself inside out!! I’ve just come to realize that even if I call him (in my case there are 2, an N I was with for 14 years–NC 1.5 yrs, and a S, NC 4 months, he’s the one I think about all the time) so… even if I call I won’t find the relief I am seeking, he is a liar, a user. I believe it was Oxy that said we just have to go through it, feel it, observe ourselves. I think the reason why you still feel the need, want and love is because it’s like an addiction, I have read here that we want the hurt to go away, they are like our TEMPORARY fix. We have to learn how to feel like that about ourselves, we should’t give that power to someone else.
I’m not trying to sound like I’m perfect over here, I am still going through a lot of what you are… I’m just trying to share some lessons I have learned here at LF. I know for me the NC has sent a message loud and clear that I am not as weak as he thought (although sometimes I feel like I’m faking it) I’ve just tried to pull together the tiniest bit of dignity I have left and hand on to that. This was an expensive life lesson for me, I loaned him a lot of money, money I could really use now, for myself and to help my daughter with a downpayment for a house, this giving of myself and my money to someone who didn’t even care about me is very difficult to live with. I’m hanging in there with you.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:37pm
shabbychic says:
oops, that should say “and hang on to that.”
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:39pm
lostnsad says:
Shabbychic,
I know what your saying… I KNOW if I call him that what he will say will only hurt me more… He’ll be like — I’m so much happier without you because I can do what I want when I want without you putting guilt on me. He’ll say that he is so much better off with out me. He’ll say things like I’m the crazy one. He’ll say that people around him say he is happier…. He’ll try to find everything to say and even if it’s true… it’ll all just hurt me more…. That’s what I think about when I think of calling him…. I think of how satisfied HE WILL FEEL if I tell him that I miss him or want to see him — or whatever… Even though it’s nothing compared to what I have given him. I DO NOT want to give him anything more…
As for $$$ — ha ha ha — He ran up like $40k in CC debt and i’m filing bankruptcy and losing my house. Top that off with I lost my job because my performance declined so much (I couldn’t get HIM out of my head) and my work suffered.
So now I’m jobless and feel totally worthless. I’ve been out of work for 7 months and I can’t seem to find anything. I’ve been on a few interviews but nothing is working out. I’m hoping that now he is gone that life will reward me (I truly believe that I lost everything because I ignored the signs to leave him.). Maybe I’m paranoid but I also believe if I DO call or contact him that I’ll jynx myself all over again…
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 12:55pm
shabbychic says:
lostnsad, they withhold attention and make up those lies to make us feel anxious and want to take them back, they know exactly what they are doing, they expect us to come crawling back because they think so highly of themselves, they think women can’t stay away from them. I journaled throughout the year I was with the S, it is both sad and fascinating to read, I wrote down our conversations, he would yell at me and make me feel confused and hurt, apologizing for things I didn’t even do, then he’d call right back and give a sob story about how he needed some cash, and because I was feeling so much emotion and fear of being abandoned I would loan him money again. I was screaming at myself in the journal to stop. This is all after breaking up with the N, reading here at LF for months, and then turning around and repeating my pattern over again, just wanting somebody to love me, enjoying the attention, I refused to look at the red flags (and they were EVERYWHERE) I started feeling like I was paying him to be with me, then I hit the wall on Christmas when he didn’t even call… he didn’t even buy me a gift with MY money!! I started pulling away after that, I was curled up in a ball on the floor, I couldn’t deny to myself anymore what was hapening.
It took me a while to go NC, I was hoping to get some money back (then he bacame very very sick) and I still daydream about having him as a companion and lover and still cry that my fantasy didn’t work out, it was all in my head, the result of my having no boundaries or self respect. I haven’t forgive myself yet for “loaning” him all that money. Only you guys here at LF know about the money, I didn’t tell anyone else.
I am so sorry to hear about you losing you home and job. Don’t feel worthless! I am about to lose my seasonal part time job, I’m scared, I admit it, but I am determined to never never never give up, we are going to be ok!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 1:17pm
lostnsad says:
I wish I had the money to go away for a while. Go up to the mountains. Just be in fresh air and AWAY from technology (well the internet and cell phones) for about a week. And just reconnect with myself. Walk along a creek, a lake, smell the trees, the dirt, and clear my head out. I used to live in western PA and now I live in South FLA and I sooooo miss the trees, mountains, lakes, fresh water…. The beach just isn’t the same….
I can’t believe that I would waste all that time and money on him. I should have spent it on me and traveling Europe. BUT I never spend money on me. Maybe what we really need to learn from these people is how to take…and put ourselves firsts. We just don’t have to hurt others to do that.
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 1:44pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lostnsad,
QUOTE: “Maybe what we really need to learn from these people is how to take…and put ourselves firsts. We just don’t have to hurt others to do that. ”
AMEN SISTER!
Since you cant “GO away” why not make your own little sanctuary in your bedroom in the evening. Get some books with photos of the area you want to go. Close the door, turn off the phone, get some candles and set them ujp and sit by candle light and read the books and look at the pictures and make your own little “camp site” right there where you are.
BLOOM WHERE YOU ARE PLANTED! don’t know who said that and am too lazy to search the net for it, but is a good thought! We can create our own little sanctuary even if it is inside a card board box!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 2:52pm
justabouthealed says:
Great advice Oxy!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 3:06pm
lostnsad says:
OxDover,
That would be good advise….but my bedroom is where we spent SO much of our time. So it’s like everywhere I look I see… ahhh…
I just need to get a job!!! One was posted this weekend that I really want. I applied and I took another step and actually called and left a message for the HR director. Something I normally wouldn’t do. BUT I know how the job market is and I know there will be TONS of resumes. So I’m really going to try my hardest to get an interview…. At this point — I’m willing to send the HR director a bouquet of flowers and my resume… lol (I don’t think I’d do that…but I need to do something). I’ve also checked on linkedin trying to see if I know anyone who knows anyone that works there….
If I get a job then I can finalize my BK and move out of this place that holds so many bitter memories…
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 3:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lostnsad,
somehow you have to make that place YOURS—back to CONTROLLING YOUR ENVIRONMENT! I do know what you mean, I threw out a beloved chair because it reminded me of HIM….and I am glad I did.
Rearrange the furniture in your bedroom. Strip the curtains down and hang up sheets if that is all you can afford. Throw out the mattress and sleep on the floor or get a futon at a used furniture store, ANYTHING to exorcise his memory from that place.
HOLD AN EXORCISIM—just an emotional one. Use incense and bells and candles and go through the whole place chanting “OUT DAMN SPOT—I hearby cleanse this spot of the evil memories and the black breath of the evil doer”
I actually held a private “MEMORIAL SERVICE” FOR MY P-SON and “symbolicly buried” him. and as strange as it sounds, it helped to give me PEACE. I also had bad memories of my x BF-P here in my house, but I “exorcised” his memory by throwing out the chair and rearranging the furniture so nothing reminded me of HIM and his EVIL presence.
We must take back our POWER, our CONTROL of OUR environment and our peace, if I can do it, YOU CAN DO IT!!!!
This weekend is Halloween, a GREAT TIME TO GET BAD SPIRITS OUT! (I don’t really believe that, but I DO believe we can exorcise them out of our hearts, minds and space ANY TIME we make uip our minds to do so! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers to the real deity to bless you!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 3:38pm
lostnsad says:
OxDrover,
I had actually thought about taking a bunch of his stuff that’s still left here and basically having a funeral. And just telling myself — he died. That he is gone. That he isn’t even on this earth any longer. Give myself total permission to move on.
I hope I can pull through and that I don’t cave and call or text him.
While being able to connect and talk to all of you is great…sometimes I really HATE the internet these days. It makes it way to easy to see what people are up to… I miss the days when you broke up with someone and they just went away… Now we have all these sites that lets us know their every move….
Send out prayers (I don’t really believe in that….lol) for me to get this interview and get this job!!! If I can do that; then I know I’ll be able to pull through!!!
Love you all…. HUGS!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 3:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lostnsad,
The job, I do hope you get it, BUT it isn’t anything external to you that makes you heal or fail to heal, HEALING IS INSIDE YOURSELF, you make it yourself.
As far as “caving and texting him” that is UP TO YOU TO MAKE THE DECISION YEA OR NAY…YOU are in CONTROL so if you “lose it” and text him, it is not anything outside yourself that makes you do it.
Grasping that WE are in control when we have given them ALL our power to control us is a heady concept, but in order to heal, to take back our power, all we have to do is to BELIEVE in ourselves to do it, and then DO it. It sounds so simple, but isn’t an easy concept to grasp for some of us.
He can only control you if YOU ALLOW IT. TRUTH. FACT.
TAKE BACK YOUR POWER, IT IS UP TO YOU! YOU CAN DO IT! NOW, DO IT!!!! ((((HUGS)))) and I DO believe in prayer, so I will pray for you!
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Monday, 26 October 2009 @ 8:01pm
ISeeTrueLoveEveryDay says:
I remember being Lostnsad! That was so long ago, even though today was the very first day I really said “GOODBYE!” to the P. I feel like a pendulum that has been winding down, going back and forth for so long, but I can see where I’m really going to land… Gonna land in the dang truth!
Goodbye is certainly a scary word to say! I’m still scared! I lock the doors at night, if you know what I mean. I put up extra lights around the entrance to my trailer (ha ha, yeah, I live in a trailer now, which is paradise compared to the four bedroom home of chaos and living hell)
Today, when I came out of the library, he was sitting in the bed of my truck, waiting for me, and writing me such a sad sad letter. I took his letter, told him “You ARE going to let me drive away RIGHT NOW”, and that I did. Ten minutes later, he was driving past in the next lane, mouthing the words “I love you” through the windows. How romantic that would have been in real life. Like, if we BOTH lived in reality. But these gestures were nothing more than creepy to me, knowing what I know!
I have not read his letter. It didn’t even occur to me until just now that he in fact gave me one. I have changed so dramatically. Used to be I wouldn’t have thought of anything else till I knew every scribble on the page.
Fortunately, I know it’s blather. I’ve had the exact same conversation with the P every day for the last month. He asks the same exact questions every time, I show him a clear picture every time, and he CHANGES THE SUBJECT as soon as the truth can NOT be denied by telling me “You are the greatest lady in the whole entire world. I love you more now than I did this morning.”
Sure he did! He loved me enough to track me down, wake me and the kids up, and lie to us 40 some odd times before the hour of 8 a.m.! My favorite thing he said lately, that puts in all into perspective, was “Yeah, but I am the ONLY one who has been hurt.” The worst thing he said was that he was going to kill himself by launching his truck off a cliff RIGHT in front of his four year old daughter and seven year old son, who burst into tears at the thought.
I responded by grabbing the phone and reminding him how stinkin quick the cops show up when I call.
But I fully realized that this man was not a person as I had formerly thought, but a character, a game, a thirsty sword so far as me and the children were concerned. I got there a few months ago, with a little online research.
Initially, I was researching the puzzling and befuddling personality traits of our 11 year old daughter, crazily enough! She had perplexed me from the age of five. One of five children total, this kid simply did not respond to discipline NOR LOVE like any of the other kids. My endless guilt, wondering what the heck had gone so wrong, or maybe what in the world was wrong with a mother who could not escape thinking her daughter didn’t really truly care about anyone, drove me to search for a way to get through to her for six years. What took so long, I don’t know, but when I saw the personality traits of a Sociopath, every single one described my daughter, and holy cow, they described my husband as well!
So yeah, that was three months ago. I fell into a deep dark depression for about a week. I saw it crystal clear. I lamented the loss of what I used to think. Next week I went into total denial, out, in, out. Some days, when I had time to myself, and I’d been pushed down, or my death described to me in detail, or listened to my children repeat back that “Mommy was the Devil”, whatever, I would pack personal belongings and family heirlooms into plastic bins. Over time, the closet got full of these bins, then the coat closet, then corners of the garage. Cuz every time I’d left before, something I had needed would draw me to revisit the house, I’d inevitably see the “compassionate” P and he’d guilt trip me into staying. One night, as he hovered above me in bed at three in the morning screaming in my face, I knew that I would leave him the next day IF he bothered to go to work, which he miraculously did!
My car had long since been repossessed. But bound and determined, I borrowed a vehicle, packed the belongings and three youngest (the two older were “step”, and want them as much as I did, he’d rip them from me through the legal system or accuse me of kidnapping, painful snare), and left.
No desire to return has overcome me yet! I just knew at that point that even though I’d been able to give quite a freakin bit, nothing was left to give anymore. Like a candy addict who demands too much of the pancreas till the pancreas just die, I had kind of died. I felt dead! I felt like a robot. It scared me that maybe I had become HIM! But with my three youngest to look at all day everyday, I saw that couldn’t be true. The search for true love had NOT ended fruitlessly, I was staring at it constantly.
The idea of No Contact didn’t find me till last night, and I thought “Of course! Chaos will follow me everywhere so long as I let him contact me, see me, manipulate me, lie to me, even just THINK that I was his in any tiny way to control and feed off of.”
Goodbye! So long! Farewell! Tot Siens! Adios Amigo! Sayonara Sucker!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 1:54am
ErinBrock says:
ISeetruelove:
Good for you! Your ‘got it’….congratulations on taking your biggest step ever!
It will be tough, your emotions will wane…..but in the long run…..it sure does open the door to life! A wonderuful life that you will make, design and control…..for you and your babies.
Read, read, read…..learn, learn, learn……share your thoughts and feelings…..
There is so much healing infromation and awareness here at LF.
You will rise above, you are on the right path!
XXOO
EB
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 2:04am
Isabell says:
M.L. Gallager,
Brilliant! Spectacularlly written.
I, too, am new here, and I have to thank you for resurecting this piece. Wow!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 3:59am
Isabell says:
Something happened in this post… I was thanking “ISee” for resurecting this post.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:00am
style1 says:
Last night after working out and while showering, I felt so free from him. Like all the realizations had come togther of why it would’ve, could’ve never worked. It was wrong from the very beginning and just became more wrong until it was glaring. This man wanted everything from me while he had nothing to offer me in return, no security, no home, no future… but his illusions of what might happen so that he could give me everything that he told me I wanted. He was creating this life in his head for himself and fit the part as ‘wife’ because of how I look, who I am, how he percieved me to fit in his dream. Then when I woke up solid and started asking questions and seeing that this is not even what I want should all his illusions come to fruition. He began tearing me down, making me, who had been so perfect for him, appear not to be. I am perfect as I am. I have what he wants and wanted until he realized that he couldn’t handle it. He couldn’t be what he claimed.. so he is gone..and I wanted him gone even from the beginning. Our lives never meshed. We are not soulmates as he adamantly claimed. We are not alike and we are very different. He tried to mirror me to get what he wanted to create a life that he dreamed of. I felt and feel sorry for him but that is not my job in life. But sometimes, I miss the dream.. like today when I woke up .. I tried to recall last Halloween .. we were together. I had someone to just be with to go to a movie with to do errands with and this year I am alone. I am not lonely. I am have things to do.. but there is just this void of that special someone.. even though, I didn’t even like him being around me much of the time. He created a focus… so what is wrong here? Is there something wrong with me? How did I let this person into my life so intensely that he became such a part of it… taking it over… ? And now, even though months have passed. I am glad that he is gone.. I still at times, miss the couple that we made.. the attractive couple … the tall grey haired man and the petite brunette.. I miss cooking for him and planning our weekends but I also don’t.. I felt free when he would leave..I felt capture when he was here.. sometimes, it is confusing… he brought confusion into my life.. It was like his intense wanting of me and to be a couple just made this relationship occur and there was little to no reason why but his creating of it…So bizarre!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 11:56am
style1 says:
One of the things that I miss is the energy and excitement even as much as I didn’t like it. I recall thinking I am tired.. why can’t we just hang around the house. Now, I have time to hang around the house and I miss the activity.. UMMM.. when you are sitting quiet there is a reason, huh? To comtemplate, to review, to release.. that is to something I wonder if he really does.. so busy running here and there..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 2:09pm
skylar says:
Style,
Your P actually left you something valuable. A little window into yourself. He was mirroring you, so he gave you a glimpse in the mirror. There might be an opportunity to learn more about your strengths and weaknesses.
I have certainly gained immense insight into myself and into other people from this experience. It’s been one epiphany after another. It seems, from your words that you are on the verge of self-discovery too.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 2:22pm
style1 says:
Skylar,
Thanks for the insight. I feel depressed today..when I think back..
I like what he mirrored in me.. I think basically I like who I am.
I wish that he had been what his illusion created. I would’ve liked that man. So, if he was mirroring me, a good part of the time.. this is something I like.. I wish that his love had been real and that he wasn’t so judgemental and like the guy in THE STEPFATHER movie… that everyone had to behave the way that he thought..I wish that he could have accepted me and listened to me instead of making me fit into his form of me.
But, ofcourse, I don’t like every little thing about me..
I can be intellectually afffected in my behavior .. I saw that mirrored in the extreme with him and didn’t like it and I have become more aware of that in me… I have the ability to get caught up in illusions or I wouldn’t have been with him. I can be a creep, at times, like we all can, but I don’t think that I am cruel or manipulative or agenda filled..
I give to much … am maybe to malleble.. like in the beginning I should’ve put my foot down more.. had him leave, taken more time to myself to pull away from him. I am obviously able to be conned.. and to believe what someone says rather than to listen to myself. He got me caught up.. out of reality and into his dream. So I believe in dreams..I am an artist… so …
I don’t know whatelse?
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 3:43pm
style1 says:
Igot caught up in his pretend world even as I saw through it.. I let it happen..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 3:44pm
witsend says:
style1,
In 12 step programs one of the steps is to take a fearless and moral inventory of ourselves. Before one can do this they have to admit what they are powerless over.
Most of us feel that we were powerless during a relationship with an S/P/N for sure. And those of us still dealing with an S/P/N either directly or indirectly (co parenting) still can feel this way.
Style1, you mentioned that you now sometimes miss what you used to not particularly enjoy while in the relationship. the excitement and energy.
Maybe even if you are not wanting to do an inventory, maybe its to soon.
However start writting down stuff, journal style….Keep track of your feelings. Your needs and wants on a daily basis.
I think I am going to do an inventory myself. I like you have been feeling depressed lately.
A feerless, inventory of myself might be just what I need.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:03pm
witsend says:
style1,
you might have let it “happen” but you didn’t know then what you know now!
Now you know different.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:04pm
style1 says:
I have been through alanon.. this was not anything like that..
I wasn’t powerless. I allowed him to con me even as I knew better. I got hooked into his spin..
we didn’t have chemical addictions..
and it first appeared that he might be the ‘one’.. he appeared to be self-aware… etc.. and was on some level.. but his financial issues.. and his delusions about being such a BIG success while he was about to be evicted.. he didn’t present the whole pic to me.. it was revealed.. he and his mother looked the part.. it slowly unraveled..
I think to that I was not totally take in.. I had one foot out.. but what is also sad .. is in real love.. that he ‘talked’ about people endure.. I endured.. and he didn’t.. he split instead of looking at himself.. I have spent so much time looking at myself.. I gut myself… and will continue to do so.. we did have a real compatibility on certain levels.. until he got into his spiritual preaching and his wanting of his big deals to happen that never did.. he was all about when this or that happens.. I couldn’t live with the pressure that he delt with .. the ill children, the child that died, the molested daughter . I tired to keep my life clean…When I saw that my husband was an alcholic, I chose to not have children with him and to get out.. I got out of messes instead of staying in them and I guess, I still am..this is not my first time, at the rodeo.. He didn’t really love me becasue he doesn’t really love.. he contrives.. and that is sad..I was waiting for him to get real and he didn’t and more and more was shown to me.. and I got out..I am just a bit sad.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:27pm
style1 says:
We had humans are not powerless to another human unless we choose to be.. or we allow them to become an addiction..
I am not addicted.. I made another mistake in judgment.. but not a total one.. I am out of it.. and free with little damage but to my heart and that will heal. My weakness is that I believe in true love… and that is acutally not weak..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:40pm
witsend says:
style1,
No of course it isn’t the same as alonon, or AA,or any of them.
But it can be compared to an addiction. People know better when it comes to doing drugs. But they can still get hooked.
There are many things to be addicted to other than a substance, or a substance abuser. And they can all kick your butt mentally, physically, emotionally and financially.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:41pm
style1 says:
I meant to write .. we as humans..are not powerless to another human..
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 4:41pm
skylar says:
It’s always a case of you having something that they want. They are envious 24/7. They walk around envious, wanting everything shiny.
I could never go grocery shopping with the P because, JUST LIKE A LITTLE KID, he’d put everything in the basket! Stuff we didn’t eat, went in. If it was at eye level and colorful, he’d grab it. Finally, I started joking with him about it. I told him that he’s just like a toddler. I would mimic him by walking down the middle of the grocery aisle with my arm outstretched toward the shelves, my hands clutching at the air pretending to grasp at everything. We would laugh and both walk down the aisle doing this. It became a joke.
But I had no idea that it was part of a sociopathic personality disorder.
I got off track making my point. My point is that the only way to avoid them is to live your life like a gray rock, because anything enviable attracts them and triggers their hatred and envy. All the things that we like about ourselves are actually our weaknesses because they like those things too. And they’ll want to take them.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 5:52pm
ErinBrock says:
How about running with the cart down the isle or parking lot real fast and jumping on for the ride……
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:09pm
amber says:
UUUGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!! I’m having a moment right now. I’m sitting here writing my friend an email and my ex singed into his AIM. And I don’t know why I didn’t remember to remove him from the list months ago…probably because he never really signed into the first place. And out of the corner of my eye I saw his name, and now I’m shaking…literally shaking. My stomach hurts and I want to cry. I can’t believe that something so small as seeing his name can still effect me sooo much. I’ve done such a good job eliminating every single little thing that reminds me of him from my life so I wouldn’t have these feelings but I forgot to remove him from that stupid list and it’s triggered me..big time.
My brain has a million thoughts running through it right now. Who is he talking to? Is he happy? What is he doing right now? Who is he with? UGGHHH UUGGGHHHHH UUUUUGGGHHHHH! I deleted his name from the list but right now, I still know he’s on.
Ok I’m taking some deep breathes and trying to occupy my mind with happy thoughts. I just needed to vent, thank god this place is here. It’s instant release for me.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:14pm
ErinBrock says:
AMber….
Let me answer those questions….
“Who is he talking to? Lot’s of young vulnerable women. He’s got a line up.
Is he happy? NO….Impossible….never will be happy. It’s an emotion, a feeling……remember….they don’t feel!
What is he doing right now? He is masturbating to pictures of other victims, thinking how much he ‘get’s one over’ on his wife AGAIN.
Who is he with?” He is alone, conniving his next ’strike’.
Yes, my dear, there are triggers……it’s part of the process…..don’t be too hard on yourself. Be proud of YOU…;you figured this out and you are moving in the right direction……
On the plus side…..YOUR NOT THE WIFE!!!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:23pm
amber says:
Thanks EB. I’m trying not to be hard on myself. But it was just so unexpected and I just had more of a reaction than I thought I would. I can’t even imagine how awful it will be if he ever tries to make contact.
I KNOW he’s not happy. I know how sad, and lonely and miserable he is at the end of the day. The worst part is..we partied a lot. He is also a musicain and performs at music festivals and clubs for THOUSANDS of people all over the world, and everyone sees this superficial, nice guy, that’s a little bit famous in his own right. He’s been doing it for 20 years and let me tell you, he really thinks he’s a rockstar. It was probably what sucked me in too. It was sooo cool that this guy that I’ve watched perform for years and that I thought was famous wanted ME?!?! And for 4 years I was there with him at every single show and party, and all I heard was wow…you’re so lucky, he’s soooooo great and sooooo nice and soooooo amazing. He had EVERYONE under his spell. But I got closer to him than anyone and I know the truth. I wasn’t so lucky, he wasn’t great and he doesn’t have an ounce of nice in him.
I know I’m doing everything right to be happy. But I can’t help but think of all the poor young girls that he’s going to suck in the way he did me. I know I figured it out, thank god. But sometimes I can’t help but feel that I will only find real peace is when he dies. Because that’s when he won’t be able to hurt anyone anymore.
Thanks for reassuring me that I’m going to be ok..and you’re right THANK GOD I’M NOT THE WIFE!!!
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 6:53pm
ErinBrock says:
Amber,
I share your concerns for the next victims……and I too wrestle with the thoughts….
BUT……even if we alerted the world……there will always be another victim to step up and just know she could be the one to change/fix/help/love/yadayadayada him!
You just don’t know him like I DO!
So…..that said……there’s nothing we can do! So work on you!
And triggers are just that….unannounced stuff we never count on or plan for……boom…..oh shit it’s him……heart races, feel sick…….YEP THAT”S THE FEELING!
XXOO
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:19pm
amber says:
EB…I know there will always be someone that will fall for it. I just can’t stand the fact that SO MANY people, our old friends, fans of his…they don’t have a clue. And that I think bugs me more than anything. That he fools all of them. I just want to out him to the world. I really really do. Out him to his parents (who would disown him) out him to his real job who would fire him..out him to his wife so she’d take the kids away from him…Then he would hurt….Oh I’ve thought about it over and over and over. I know I could seriously destroy his life. And ohhhhhhh you better believe I know I have the power and amuniton to. And if maybe I could hurt him just a little bit that I would feel better. BUT I have a conscious!! I have values!! I have morals!! And it’s not worth the hell it would cause me in the end. And it sucks knowing that I have the power and I WON’T use it. I’m just waiting for his karma to kick in. I wish it would HURRY THE HELL UP!!! So I can revel in glory!! Right now he’s got an outstanding playboy bill that hasn’t been paid that comes to my address. I’m just gonna let it go to collections for a while, then I’m going to let playboy know his real address and they can send it to his house!! Hope his wife gets it! Ruin his credit a little bit over $16!!! LOL! This is about as evil as I can be. so sad. HAHAHA!!
XOXO
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 7:42pm
skylar says:
EB. he isn’t a joyful person who would ride around in a grocery cart. He just wants everything in the store. He is so easily seduced by shiny things. They all are. They are really easy to distract that way.
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Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:04pm
style1 says:
“It’s always a case of you having something that they want. They are envious 24/7. They walk around envious, wanting everything shiny. ”
Skylar, yes.. thanks.. I get it. His front was this spiritual gig that took me off course and gaslighted his whole agenda.
I am having a bad patch.. because last Fall for us was one of our better times.. it was fun and today is a beautiful Fall day and I am alone… I emailed him today to cancel some of his mail that still comes to my address.. this spiritual stuff.. and he emailed something nasty like just throw it away which of course, I do, but I am tired of his inflitrating my life..seeing his name on things coming to my house. I deleted him from my friends list.. I got tired of seeing his name online.
Why should I need to live gray? Just become aware of what I want and not settle for less by some fast talking con.. who wants my life with nothing to offer in return but burdens..
How he addicted me to him was the continual attention, promises, and compliments … small little gifts and doing things for me. He told me once that a women needs a man to wrap her life around.. there is a degree of truth to that… as I like the male/female interaction. But, I have been single for 15 years.. except for a long term four year relationship… then this man…and I took care of myself just fine…
!@#%^!@#$%^
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:07pm
skylar says:
Amber, I’m so sorry you were triggered. This might be a good time to delete his name from the AIM and then go for a quick run with your collie. You need to work that stress spike out of your body, so you can stop thinking about him.
I know what you mean about wanting to warn people. Today, I saw panhandlers standing on the off ramps and I suddenly pictured myself standing next to them handing out pamphlets that warn people about psychopaths! It occurred to me that IF ONLY SOMEONE HAD WARNED ME. Why aren’t people taught that the P’s exist and how to spot the red flags. Why are so many lives destroyed and wasted? If there was a pamphlet that explained it all, I would have read it and known.
You can get pamphlet on avoiding disease, pregnancy, burglers, etc… why not a comprehensive P-warning pamphlet as a public service?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:08pm
skylar says:
Style, I agree that you shouldn’t have to live a gray life. But you’ll have to be aware of the risks you are taking. When I met the P, I was young and dressed to the nines everyday. I was nieve and didn’t understand how dangerous all the attention I was getting was. I had so many boyfriends and wannabee boyfriends. the P knew this and decided that he was going to take it all away. he wanted me for himself but he didn’t want me to have me. It’s a weird irrational logic they have.
Today, I will not allow people the chance to envy me. I’m careful about the impression I make and if I ever have money again, I will be certain that people don’t know about it. Too many P’s out there, grasping at the shiny things in the grocery aisles.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:14pm
amber says:
Skylar…Oh my god you read my mind!! Last night I was sitting here thinking…. You know what?? Why aren’t there more shows warning the dangers of these people??? We hear about clebrities if they had a bad day…and who’s F**** who, and partying where….we hear about gang shootings and burglaries and rapes on the news. WHY DON’T WE HEAR MORE ABOUT S/P/N. Honestly, the only reason I even heard the word sociopath was when I flipped through the channels and somehow ended up on Dr. Phil. Now, if you know me, I don’t watch Dr. Phil. But I swear this was my divine intervention. It was about a sociopath..and I almost had a panic attack because it was me EX. Watching that show gave me the same burning in my gut, my chest was heavy, my breathing fast, made my head dizzy the same way it did when I discovered something new with my ex. It was my AH HA moment. And that’s when I started educating myself and without a doubt he fits every single description. Now if I had known what a S was before, no chance would I have gotten involved with him..Why is this not being taught to girls in high school?!?!?! Seriously screw home ec..and start teaching what to watch out for in men!!!
Believe me I deleted him quicker than you can believe and I’m ok now. Thinking about him more than I would like to, but I’m going to be ok. Just a bump in the road today…that’s all..and that’s all I’m gonna let it be.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 8:27pm
style1 says:
I do know what you mean about people envying.. that you are thin, that you have a new house, that you dress well… etc…
men like this are attacted to what they can have on their arm with no input of their resources… like my friends said you made him look good.. and I was the same with or with or without him… and without me.. he is living with friends or in an empty apt. And still putting me down…
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 30 October 2009 @ 10:13pm
Stayingsane says:
EB/Amber
really relate to Amber seeing his name pop up, triggering all those emotions. I have great no contact time built up to 4 months now and a decision NEVER AGAIN…..
So when I see your response EB I smile and feel safe again. These really ARE THE ANSWERS!! so once again with feeling!
“Who is he talking to? Lot’s of young vulnerable women. He’s got a line up.
Is he happy? NO….Impossible….never will be happy. It’s an emotion, a feeling……remember….they don’t feel!
What is he doing right now? He is masturbating to pictures of other victims, thinking how much he ‘get’s one over’ on his wife AGAIN.
Who is he with?” He is alone, conniving his next ’strike’.
Thank you for the crystal clear splash of cold water in my face! I feel refreshed, renewed and ready for anything!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:00am
blueskies says:
Staying sane:) I was just about to give EB a massive WHOOOP! for her reply too:)x EB, your posts make me punch the air, go YEAH! Too right missus! and get along with what I was doing with a chirpy whistle:)x
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:11am
ErinBrock says:
Thanks for the WHOOP guys!
This is one avenue in my life I feel I have a good handle on…..may not be able to avoid em….but once I recognize em…….their dead meat!
My approach (as if you couldn’t tell) is cut and dry…..the S had me ‘wavering’ unable to make decisions, because what if I was wrong, what if he didn’t lie/cheat/steal/manipulate that time/person/me……what if I did blow it out of proportion……I spent the vast majority of my life doubting myself……
Oh….NOT NOW!
Cut the ‘noise’ out and go straight for the jugular!
Now Stayingsane……heres a warm towel to dry off!
Amber…have a GREAT DAY TODAY…..your miles ahead!
Blue: Girl…..keep on whisteling dixie and high fiven!
Remember ladies…..it all could be worse……
WE ARE IN THE DRIVERS SEAT!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:18am
lostingrief says:
I LOATHE HIM. I HATE HIM. I DESPISE HIMMMMM!!!!!!
FILTHY DIRTY, LYING, DECEITFUL, EMPTY-SHELL-OF-A-WHORE!!!
AAARRGGHHH!!!!!
(thanks. i needed to get that out!)
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 1:18pm
amber says:
Thanks guys!! And YES, WHOOPS to EB!! That was a nice way to wake up…I Know deep down that if I couldn’t make him happy then nobody can, it took me a long time to accept it before I could move on. But I just don’t see anyone putting up with the abuse I did. He’ll be miserable till the day he dies. Stayingsane, congrats to you for your 4 months NC!!
Now if any of you have suggestions on how I could only control my dreams. That’s one trigger I don’t know how I’m going to control. I have eliminated all physical triggers, and keep myself busy during the day to not let thoughts of him trigger me, but sleeping is a whole nother story. I’m assuming with time the dreams…errr NIGHTMARES will stop. I guess my subconscious is still trying to put it all together, and I’ll just have to deal until it’s at peace too.
I am going to have a great day! It’s going to be 80 degrees here today (I love socal!!) and I’m going to sunbathe in my backyard, go to the gym, the go hang out with two of the best friends any person could have. Total change from years past. Normally I would be getting all dolled up to go party out in Hollywood with him. Two years ago he was a vampire!! LOL…Ohhh how that costume seems to be so suiting now. It’s a wonder why those fangs looked like they belonged on him!!!! He IS a vampire…sucking the life out of everything he touches.
You’re right EB it could be worse. I will remind myself of that EVERYDAY! I never married him, I never had a child with him, I’m no longer with him, he never put me in those cement shoes!!! I get to walk away and be FREE!! I am in the driver seat and it’s full speed ahead!!
xoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 1:31pm
ErinBrock says:
LIG:
You okay?
Get it out girl…..get it out…….!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 1:40pm
lostingrief says:
thanks erin …
think i’m okay now.
just an s-path meltdown.
in a place of utter disbelief that he could have done what he did. the levels of sickness in that boy are endless.
hearing kelly clarkson’s ‘addicted’ — have you heard that song? — made me really upset. crying for an hour, but i think i’m done now. i’m not sad … i’m enraged and sickened, disgusted and hateful, hoping he crashes and burns and rots in hell for all eternity.
but that’s a healthy thing, right?
lol.
towanda.
yah.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:34pm
amber says:
lostingrief….
Yes…crashes and burns and rots in hell for enternity!! I hope that’s a healthy way to feel cuz I’m right with ya!!! LOL!! And to think at one point I wanted to spend my enternity with him. My how things change!
Towanda girl! Get it out and enjoy your day, knowing that he is already rotten in his enteranl hell that is his life. REJOICE!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:44pm
skylar says:
amber, the nightmares didn’t stop for me til I got laid.
Frankly, that’s what it took. I was lucky though, because I had an old friend (about 15 years) who was available and offered “therapy”.
I told him I was going to go to acupuncture and asked if he wanted to try it too because it’s so relaxing. He suggested that we be each others acupuncture.
BTW, I actually saw the xP today! OMG. he is SOOOO ugly!
He stinks, he’s afraid of me and he tried to get away – but I wouldn’t let him – I sat in the car door jamb. He’s mad at me because I know he’s a sociopath and I outed him to his friends. (other supplies). I tried to be nice but I coudn’t keep a straight face and kept cracking up laughing.
Here’s some of the conversation:
xP: you accuse me of being a murderer and a sociopath and gay.
Me: no, I didn’t say you were gay, I said you like gay sex, but you’ll do anything, cows, horses, dogs or pigs.
Me: don’t be mad at me. I don’t mind who you have sex with.
I used a really sweet tone of voice the whole time, even while I was laughing. He says he’s moving to another country in one nasty smelling breath and in the next foul breath he says he’s moving to montana. He had begun to deteriorate before but now it’s sickening and foul. I can’t believe I was ever with that thing. I think I caught the swine flu from being in close proximity to him.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 2:48pm
amber says:
LOL!! Wow!! Ok, well that’s food for thought! Hmmmm…who can I call?!?!…lol. No, right now sex doesn’t even interest me. It was soooo amazing with my ex that I’m so scared that everyone else is going to suck and it’ll make me miss him more. That I just don’t want to do. I wish the sex had sucked the whole time, it would probably would have been so much easier to walk away. HA!!
But I do have a date on Tuesday with a sweet boy, not that I’ll sleep with him on the first date, but maybe there will be potential if things go well that I can get laid sooner than later.
And I’m glad to hear that you could see your ex and know that it’s over and that you can’t stand him. I’m definately not there yet. I would actually prefer to NEVER see him again if I am so lucky. But good for you, and yes let’s hope his stinky ass moves far far away. I wish my ex would do the same. I wish he would move to hell!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:00pm
skylar says:
Amber, sex with my xP was freaking, over the top, you- wouldn’t-believe-what-he-did-to-all-my-senses-amazing! But there was no kissing and no emotion from him, only immense emotion from me. It reminds me of the fairytale beauty and the beast because he was ugly and I wasn’t allowed to see him, (he liked to blindfold me).
So, yeah, it was scary because I didn’t know how it would work out. But there is a nice calmness about it and it’s more real.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:23pm
skylar says:
Amber,
I’m happy for you that you have a date on Tuesday. I’m not recommending you do anything you aren’t ready to do. Maybe just having some affectionate company will do the trick. I think the mind needs to be distracted from that hyper-emotional state then you can re-boot it to focus on something else.
LIG,
I GUARANTEE you that his life will be miserable to the end.
They all are because fantasy land doesn’t last. Only true compassion can create the bonds that make us happy. I offer you the same advice as I gave Amber, just get a distraction. No need for more heavy emotions right now, just pleasant affection does wonders.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:29pm
justabouthealed says:
There is the mechanical part of sex, and then there is the bonding part. I think after you have had bonding sex where the most important part is expressing your love for each other, and your joy in each other, outstanding mechanical sex feels lonely. Like assisted solo-sex. A fine wine vs. whiskey shots. A gourmet meal vs. take out. Or maybe I’m just old!
The P did everything right mechanically, when he actually got around to me, which wasn’t often, but I couldn’t relax and enjoy it. I think part of me knew it was about power and control and judging. Maybe a big part of me. Worst sex of my life. UCKY!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:52pm
ErinBrock says:
LIG:
Yes…..turn it all into the anger phase of healing…..this is where we move into action!
Embrace your feelings……but maintain control of your emotions!
You will be okay….You ARE okay!!!!!
Dang guys…..
Burn in hell…..
Your pretty nice……I’d rather see the S burn in a car he drove off a cliff, exploding as he rolled down the mountain…..BEFORE he arrives in hell!
Amber:
The dreams/nightmares are processing…..yeah…they suck….but find them entertainment too……they will reveal a lot of what is left inside of you….
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 3:55pm
ErinBrock says:
JAH:
I love my fine wines (got them all in the divorce), I cook only gourmet meals and I have only engaged in solo sex for a few years now……
Is there something wrong with this picture?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:00pm
amber says:
Skylar, I have a hard time believing the emotion we shared wasn’t real when we had sex. I don’t think I’m ready to face that it may have all been a lie. This may be the hardest part for me to get over, because my gut told me it was real, well at least for the first 3 years anyway. There was so much emotion and connection that he would cry sometimes when we had sex because he was, “finally letting go” as he said. It was like the only time he would let his guard down and let me into his being. It was the only time I really ever saw any truth in him. Honestly it was the only time he was not selfish. It was always about me, making me happy, making me feel beautiful, and the connection and emotion was SO strong that it still makes me want to cry to think that there’s a possibilty it wasn’t real. I just can’t bare that thought. I still want to think even if every other thing he did to me that was so horrible that THIS was the one thing that he wasn’t fake with me about. If everything else was a facade that this was the only time he was true. That maybe for just a a moment in time, he did have real emotions or feelings. He said I set him “free” or that it was the only time he could “let go and any feel joy.” It was really the only time anything happy or positive ever came out of his mouth. It was hours upon hours of deep intimate, gazing into each others eyes, kissing..just beyond emotional coonection and intimacy. It was ecstacy, cosmic. But the last year, that connection was gone, he couldn’t look into my eyes anymore, I didn’t feel beautiful anymore, I could tell he had changed, there was no intimacy left, and that’s when it all went to shit. My gut knew. That’s when the drugs and drinking were out of control, he started cheating, and the lying was out of control, and he even told me that he “didn’t feel right making love to me anymore because he didn’t want to hurt me because he didn’t love me the same anymore.” I’m glad that he was at least able to be honest with me for that. At the end of the day, his demons were too deep. They controlled him and even for that brief moment in time when things were pure bliss, not even those emotions could win over his heart, and that still makes me sad. So I know that if those moments we shared couldn’t make him want to change for the better for me, then nothing ever will. I guess it is something that I will always question..were those moments all lies too? As much as I want to believe they weren’t, I have to be honest with myself and realize that if he really loved me, we’d probably be just fine and dandy right now. So I’m working through it. It hurts..but I know the love I am capable of, and it hurts to know that I gave him so much of it.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:22pm
skylar says:
EB,
nothing wrong that I can see.
Solo sex is wayyyy better than the most awesome P-sex because you don’t have to worry about catching anything!
Agghh. He looked soooo nasty today. I can still barely get over it. He’s not just falling apart, he appears to be rotting. I’m so glad I stopped having sex with him over a decade ago. I must’ve been hynotized before that.
Next time I see him, I’m going to get a picture of him and post it somewhere so you all can print it out and make a dart board. LOL.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:31pm
ErinBrock says:
Isn’t it funny how we thought they were the ‘bees knees’ when we all first started out….
Now we look at them and they are truely FUGLY!
(fucken ugly)
I always thought…..and this was the last thing I held on to….was he was soo handsome……
He is old, orange, beady eyed, wirey haired, swollen, fat, gutrotted, and nasty! I see nothing handsome in him!
I think he used too much rustonlium lube on his insides!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:39pm
skylar says:
Amber, you had the worst kind of P. The kind that likes to take you to the pinnacle for the breathtaking view and then PUSHES YOU OFF.
I just can’t mince words Amber, not even to spare your feelings because I’m dedicated to spreading the truth about the P’s.
Sex with my P was all about ME. MY emotions, MY physical pleasure, ME feeling more beautiful and desirable than any other woman on earth. Hours and hours of this. It was physically exhausting and mentally mind-numbing. He was eating it up. It’s about control. Oh yeah and mine could cry too. I even believed it when he cried. Not during sex, but when the occasion called for it.
When your P was ready to give you up, he couldn’t just coldly say “see ya”. Nope, he had a ‘STORY” he had to play out. Where he was the hero, you were the heroine and tragically, love was lost. Such a dramatic final ending. (I hear violins)
My xP is still trying to pull that on me. And that’s why he didn’t want me to see him today. He didn’t clean up his act and wasn’t ready. Me telling him that I KNOW what he is, and that he is a cookie cutter copy of all other P’s has just knocked the wind out of his fat fairy tale ending. REALITY BITES.
Please, understand, THEY ARE ACTORS. NOTHING IS REAL.
Believe me, when your xP left the room to go to the bathroom, he looked in the mirror and took a bow.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:39pm
skylar says:
LOL Erin,
we should have a contest where we all submit a photo to see who has the ugliest xP!
Amber,
yours will get ugly too. They all end up with their insides showing on the outside. It’s TRUE.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:41pm
amber says:
Thanks Sky…I aprreciate you not mincing words…I know he was an actor. He told me that all the time. He knew his whole life was a lie, a sham, an act. And I think he was sooo sick of living that way because he was exhausted trying to keep up with it all, and I was always there to pick up the pieces and reassure him that I loved him, and that no matter what I would support him because I wanted him to get better…blaahhh bllaaahhhhhh blllllllaaahhhhhhhhh!! But he always reassured me that, even though he acts with everyone else that he COULDN’T do it to me. Nope! Couldn’t do it! Not to his pookie who he would lay his life down for!! Well, I soon too discovered that he was acting with me. I know that. I just have to keep reminding myself that if he really truly loved me and wanted to change then he wouldn’t have done what he did to me. Love doesn’t cheat, love doesn’t lie, love doesn’t manipulate. And that’s all he did. I just have to keep telling myself that.
And I love the idea of submitting photos!!! HAHAHAHA!! When? Where? How?
Thanks for making me laugh guys.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 4:56pm
amber says:
You know what… I hope I run into his short, bald, arthritic, miserable ass in like 15 years. He’s such an idiot..really. Even his friends told him all the time…Dude how did you get her? She’s WAAAAYYY too hot for your ass. And he knew it. He knew I made him look good. And people would tell me all the time…Uhhhh Amber?? You could do soooo much better. Even people walking down the street would look at us funny..like what the hell is she doing with him?? My best friend refered to him as MR. BURNS. And you know what..I see it now. He’s a 41 year old, skinny, short, bald, black, English dude with an underbite and huge head. And I’m a long blonde haired, blue eyed, intelligent, beautiful, charming young girl. So yeah I hope that I run into his ass years from now when he’s shorter and fatter and uglier, so he can regret being such a DOUCHE to me. His charm will fade along with his music carreer. He won’t seem nearly as intruging to a bunch of groupies without a microphone in his hand. He knows he’s doomed and he’s hanging on to his youth in any way he can. It’s really so pathetic in a way. Oh well, his loss!! My boy in my biology class that I’m going on a date with on Tuesday just texted me telling me to have a wonderful day and he’s excited to see me..It makes me realize that I still got it!! And I always will as long as I’m a good person! Ohhh I feel better now.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 5:22pm
justabouthealed says:
EB and all…didn’t mean it as a slam against solo sex. ASSISTED solo sex is what sucks. When there are two people but NO connection. Solo alone is fine! You are connected to yourself!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 5:58pm
ErinBrock says:
SKY:
I am in a quandry on which photo to submit……
I have 2 favorites….
The one of him spreading his butt cheeks showing all, when I said smile, with face turned to camera, …..
or the one with him on his knees in front of a couch with 2 men, waist down naked ,with hard ons……
(The later picture I was just enlightened of)
Damn you make these decisions so difficult!!!
JAH:
I got it…..no worries…..
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 6:13pm
skylar says:
Erin:
oh, my!
I know…
I can photo shop them into one picture!
Merge his butt cheeks in one picture with the hard ons in the other picture.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 6:21pm
ErinBrock says:
Can we just submit 2…..Puuullllleeeaaasssee?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 6:25pm
shabbychic says:
oh jeez, I can’t laugh this hard, it hurts! hahahahahaha
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 7:49pm
ErinBrock says:
Welll……after much thought….I have just figured out my Halloween costume and I’m heading out.
It was real easy…..and you should all consider it for next year…..
Just walk out the door as is…..
No prep necessary…..
I am dressing up as the crazy person I was accused of being by the S!
The funny thing……NO ONE will EVER guess what you are!!!!!!!
So this year I find it fitting to be that for Halloween……
Ya’ll be safe tonight!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 7:56pm
geminigirl says:
I think it may be even harder to get over a P child, now an adult. If I could truly hate her,scream, pound a pillow, anything to give me relief! Its the sickening realization that shes NEVER EVER going to say sorry for the truly AWFUL thinds shes done to me,{I wont bore you to death telling them again, I think you all know tham by now.} I know Ill NEVER get an apology and therefore NEVER get any closure on all the lies, the con tricks,the vile behaviour,the destruction,-wrecking my art studio and painting over my paintings felt like an attack on my soul, and Im a good, trained artist, whose never been able to paint anything since she did that {twice.}I fI could HATE her, but Im in a schitsophrenic double bind, shes my daughter.If she wasnt related to me Id hate her with a passion!shes a horrible person who looks so inocent and sweet, but is EVIL!!She has lost her home, her nice husband, her kids, her Mum, good friends, hercredit rating, her car, her flat, and she still thinks shesa clever, superior being!! NO SHE ISNT!!! She will crash and burn without my help from now on.Love, GEM>XX
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:25pm
skylar says:
Geminigirl,
I can’t imagine what it would be like to have P children. But I have P’s in my family and it does feel different than the xP in some ways. Because I’ve known these people since childhood, I can think back and SEE how they’ve changed over time and yet, they really NEVER CHANGED AT ALL.
My p siblings were always selfish, then they just allowed the selfishness to become evil. My oldest sister who is a saint, was never selfish even as a child. She was kind and innocent and still is. My xP was worse to me than my p-siblings but I almost hate them more. I would have expected more loyalty from blood relatives. Boy was I wrong! VAMPIRES!
Genetic code means nothing to these creatures, nor does shared history or anything you might have sacrificed to them in the past. They live in this moment, right now, no past, no future. I want what I want and I want it now. That’s a two-year old for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:46pm
shabbychic says:
gem, my heart breaks for you, I don’t know how you and the others here on LF deal with the pain of a P child. My daughter lives 3000 miles away from me and although I do talk to her often on the phone… not being able to be with her causes me a lot of hurt (which I do not let on to her). I think you are right about it being harder to get over a P child, but you are also right in that you cannot continue to enable her to try to destroy you. She has lost her own children… so it kind of tells you that these bonds between a mother and child don’t mean anything to her, or don’t exist for her, does she even care that she has lost her own children? Our minds can’t grasp this detachment the have because our hearts are full of love for others.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:47pm
shabbychic says:
I worked once with a gal that did not seem to have the same type of attachment to her daughter that I have to mine and I remember thinking “a cat or dog makes a better mother than her”. I didn’t know about personality disorders then, she’s probably a N/S, now that I think about it.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:52pm
amber says:
AHHHHHH!!!! As much as it annoys me and I hate these people… I’m watching some interview with Hailey Glassman, and she’s crying her heart out over Jon Gosselin. It’s sick! She’s crying how emotionally abusive he is, and even though she’s sick of the abuse, “he just somehome seems to know how to always come back and makes me stay, because he tells me he loves me and he makes me laugh.” or something to that matter. That she’s tired of being his “dishrag.” And when she said, “he’s like a VAMPIRE THAT SUCKS THE LIFE OUT OF ME.” I gasped!!! I was like HELLO!!! RED FLAG!!!! RUUUUUNNNNNN!!!! She clearly doens’t know what a sociopath is, but WOW!! Seeing that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I guess it’s blatently obvious to me that I know the difference. And for that I’m thankful.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 8:58pm
ErinBrock says:
Good practice amber! You will do this sort of ‘practice’ for the rest of your life…..on EVERYONE!
WOrd of caution…….Don’t ever get ‘comfortable’ that you KNOW it and can spot em a mile away though…..THAT”S WHEN THEY CREEP IN!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:16pm
shabbychic says:
I saw that interview and actually felt sorry for her.
She is waaaaaaaaaaay in over her head!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:37pm
skylar says:
EB, good point.
Unfortunately, I’ve gone the other way and although I think I can spot them, I’m also totally paranoid!
But that’s ok, I think a lot of what I’m catching is just narcissistic behavior. Like Oxy’s pilot friend who didn’t care about insurance, even normal people act like selfish jerks sometimes.
I guess the difference is whether the behavior is cold and calculated. Then it’s a P.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:40pm
ErinBrock says:
SKY:
This is why balance is a key!
It’s about toxicity……Bottom line….whatever ‘they’ are….we don’t need any of it!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 9:50pm
heavenbound says:
Geminigirl
I love you gemini, I truly do…God bless you! You are in my prayers!
I know it’s not the same thing and it doesn’t change how you feel about your blood daughters…but there are many here that sure do need a mother that understands and is loving and is willing to try and guide us right. I have a wonderful mother in many ways and mean no bad towards her at all, but i’m not at all against having another and could use one that understands the effects the p has had on me and why and that I can’t help the way I feel sometimes and I can’t even come close to explaining it alot of times and I can’t change it over night. I’d make the perfect daughter in that I do what “normal” daughters do, I argue, I don’t always listen and I always need straightened out on my path
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:01pm
ErinBrock says:
MAMA GEM…..not mentioning my childhood issues with them……My mother abandoned me during all of this….not only abandoned me….but worked with the S, along with my father to aid in our destruction.
They lied to me and family, the whole time….stating they were NOT speaking to the S…..I have them on tape!
They wonder why we are not ‘close’ and I have no desire to be intouch with them….they can rot in hell!
I had ALWAYS been there for them….ALWAYS!!!!
So….if you don’t mind…..I’m up for adoption! I don’t eat much!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:12pm
ErinBrock says:
Okay….I lied…..I eat alot!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 31 October 2009 @ 10:15pm
amber says:
Wow!! This is officially the earliest I’ve been home and most sober I’ve been on a Halloween in years. And to be honest, I’m ok with it. I know exactly where my EX S is right now, he’s at some dirty club, downtown LA, in his best outfit, coked out beyond belief, with vokda in his hand, microphone in the other, and whoever the new girl is… is standing in a corner, waiting for him to pay attention to her because right now, he’s too busy to acknowledge her because he’s pretending to be a rockstar, or score more drugs, or hitting on groupies. How do I know this? Because this was me a year ago, and the year before and the year before that..you see where I’m going.
But tomorrow I will wake up without a headache and he will wake up in a cold motel room, completely hung over, with some little girl he barely knows, and he’ll hate himself. And I’m not upset, I’m not angry….This just is who he is…and I’m accepting that. I wasn’t the first, I won’t be the last, I was just unfortunate to end up somewhere in the middle. I’m surprisingly at peace right now. 6 months ago I would be inside out right now…..drowning my sorrows, crying my eyes out. And right now I just want to go to bed. I hope that moments like these get easier and easier. So ladies hope you all had a wonderful day..good night!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 2:16am
geminigirl says:
Dearest shabbyshic, Skylar, Erin,amber, and heavenbound, Bless you all ! Im willing to be Mama Bear to all of you!!I guess Ill have to sign adoption certificates! Serously, thank youALL including wonderful Oxy, for your support and understanding. These Ps are not really human. Oxy is right, blood may be thicker than water, but abuse is thicker than blood! And family are people that love you BACK.! Our wonderful Iranian “kids” have just left,{lots of hugs and kisses from them!}. Roya brought a cake and a lovely bunch of flowers, something my p kids never did in 25 years! LOL! I am so blessed to have them in my life! This is TRUE family, kids who love you BACK, and appreciate you.They both work so hard, they are young,{24 and 25,] but Im sure they will do well and get their citizenship and permanent residency in 3 to 4 years time, Abbas works all the hours god sends, and Roya does 3 days at tech. and 3 at a hairdressing salonas an unpaid apprentice. She is gaining hours, and valuable experience. We had a super chicken curry, dhal, rice,a tomato sambal. indian rotis , chutney, and home made apple flan to follow, then coffee. they went off with enough frozen meals to last them 5 days. They ar such fun, so loving and appreciative of everything.They left, happy, well fed, and laughing. Thank you God!! I am full of love today, so I hope all you guys can feel it, I love you ALL too!! and {{{HUGS!!!}}}Mama bear gem.XXX
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 1 November 2009 @ 3:07am
FlatBrokeNow says:
Hi all,
Newbie here, and lurker for a while now. Seems most posts are about him, this is about her. Maybe the lack of posts about her, are due in large part to the overwhelming embarassment of it all. That it was allowed to happen. The fantasy, that if I just did X it would all be good. Over, and over, and over. Knowing, but not acting like I knew the futility of it all. Am I right, that men have issues revealing they were duped, or more accurately, allowed it to happen?
This one is a real life Marnie. If you ever watched the Hitchcock film, you may remember her. She isn’t exactly a safe cracker, but a definite Con. In love with a horse. Seems that’s the closest she can come to a real physical attraction. Withholds physical contact, especially sex. That is all she really has to offer, and so, her center of power as well. Wanted to marry me quickly, constantly telling me she loved me. Scary stuff. Eventually threatened to have me tortured, when I threw her out. I was smart enough to let the people at 911 know about it.
I should be rejoicing, and so very grateful she is out of my life. More accurately, she was never really in it. Easily said, not quite as easy to do. I am keeping NC. But still finding myself digging into the past, even early on, found felony elder abuse against her own mother. Fortunately for me it was quick. Only a few months before I fully realized what I was dealing with. Suddenly that word S just popped into my head, and it was an epiphany.
I would really like to see more men posting here. I personally think the statistics of 1% women S, to 3% men S, are wrong. I think it just goes unreported.
OxDrover, you posted about a woman P who lived in her car, believed she was somehow a superior being… this also applies here, creepily similar.
Thanks for all the wonderful posts.
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:25pm
Donna Andersen says:
FlatBrokeNow,
Welcome to Lovefraud, and we’re glad you are here. You are by no means the only man here – we have some regular posters, and others who have come and gone.
There are more male than female sociopaths, although all statistics related to sociopaths are probably not much more than guesstimates. However, I can tell you that according to the e-mails I receive, the generalization is correct – more men than women perps.
Still, the women are just as bad. You can find articles about female sociopaths under “Categories” on the left.
Welcome – sorry you had to find us.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:35pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Thanks, I think I could use a bit of encouragement, maybe some counseling as well.
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:38pm
Donna Andersen says:
Feel free to post about your questions and concerns. There is a lot of group wisdom here – someone will have a suggestion or advice.
You can recover, if you give yourself time and permission to do it. Getting over these involvements is a process. Unfortunately there aren’t any shortcuts.
Lots of information in the archives – you might want to read some of the past articles.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 1:55pm
shabbychic says:
FlatBrokeNow, Hi, glad you posted, this is a great site, it has helped me more than I can say, and as Donna said there are men who post here also and quite a few articles submitted by men. This site is a great way to learn about yourself too, not just “them” so I hope you stay and post more about yourself, lots of good people here!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:07pm
Matt says:
FlatBrokeNow:
Most appropriate name. If I had back 10 cents on the dollar for what I expended on the avaricious piece of sewage I was involved with, I’d be happy. On the other hand, the peace of mind I have achieved since I drove him out of my life and the personal growth I have experienced since then, really does balance the ledger. Also, to follow up on what Donna sa ys, feel free to raise your questions and concerns. And there ain’t nothin’ nobody on this site is shocked by since we have all taken a journey to the bowels of hell with these creatures.
Anyhow, I digress. Welcome. Male or female, gay or straight, any socio-economic bracket, you will find these subhumans are pretty much cut from the same cloth, as I learned a year ago when I first logged on here after driving the S from my life. That said, knowledge = power. There are a lot of good articles in the archives. I also recommend “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare. The book is required reading for Sociopath 101.
Once again, welcome. You are in a place of healing.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:15pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Flat,
I second donna’s welcome here. This place has been a life saver for me, and I’m still here after 2+ years and have no intention of leaving. I’m a lot further along the road to healing now and living a good life and one filled with peace and joy, but I can sure relate to everyone here.
I had (he’s dead now) a P-sperm donor, and a P-son (in prison) a P DIL and have worked with and for Ps, been in business with them, and seems my life and family are filled with them. I am a retired medical professional and you’d think I would have SEEN and RECOGNIZED that I was being abused, but I didn’t for so many decades.
Yes, I think the reason there “are more” Males is that due to the testosterone males “act out” more, but I also think that many “cluster B” (different diagnoses for personality disorders) are tacked on to women because they are usually not so violent. They can be though! I think too they are sneakier than the male variety as a general rule.
I’m glad you didn’t get hooked into this woman for a life time or have a child with her! Count your blessings, Man, and get down on your knees and thank whatever diety you believe in that you were saved from that BEAR TRAP. Both men and women Ps use children as a “hook” to bind the victim to them. Using the children as pawns in their games.
I suggest as Donna did that you go through the archived articles, you might want to start with the ones about female Ps, and read each and every article (don’t bother with the comments as you would never get through if you did) LOL and I think you will realize that there is a great deal of information you will find helpful. Stuff about THEM but also stuff about (more importantly) US and how we heal, how we spot them in the future (Red Flags) and about the importance of staying NO contact. Both physically and emotionally.
There have been some great male posters here and there are two regular ones here now, Matt and Henry.
Also there are (according to a site that counts hits to different sites) about 2,000+ hits her per day. Since there are not even close to that many people posting here, and people have come on here and posted and said “I’ve been reading daily for over a eyar and this is my first post.” I believe there are many men out there who READ but for whatever reason don’t feel comfortable posting.
We sincerely welcome people from both sexes, straight or gay, and various viewpoints on lots of things. This is a very open and caring group of people, there is respect and validation here. We need that validation when we start to heal because, frankly, most people will not “get” what a trauma we have been through, even if you were fortunate not to be hooked into this woman for decades with children etc. THEY ARE TOXIC and any association with them is poison to our souls. I appalud you for catching on as quickly as you did!
The money they con us out of is “tuition” in the school of hard knocks, but I think in the end, it is usually money well spent! If WE GET THE LESSON. If we don’t get the lesson (flunk the class) we will only go on to repeat it again until we DO get it.
Again, welcome!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 2:44pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Hey,
Thanks again, yeah, I guess, actually, I’m pretty lucky compared to what I see a lot of here. I knew about S’s but somehow didn’t make the connection until after she was out. Suddenly BOOM! The word! … and it all made sense.
I wonder though if being here is really part of NC, or it’s just another facet of maintaining the deadly fantasy…
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:08pm
Matt says:
FlatBrokeNow:
Being here is really part of NC — it helps survivors of an S to escape the fantasy. As a starting place a survivor needs to escape the FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). Also, the folks on this site are really good at giving you reality checks which are necessary since these creatures do such a thorough job of destroying our sense of reality. Kathy Hawke has written a great series of articles on the steps of healing.
I’ve practiced criminal law — both sides of the aisle — and I thought I knew what sociopaths were all about. No secret that a large proportion of the guests of the CJS are psychopaths. I still got nailed by one in my personal life — and as incredible as it seems, he was an ex-con. I subsequently learned he had been released from prison 3 weeks before I met him. So, you’ve got a lot of company in the “I thought I knew what a S was club.”
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:15pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Matt,
Well, we have that in common. I knew it, was warned, found the court papers on the net, but chose to believe her story, well… I suspected she was lying, but chose to ignore that. Felony elder abuse, 3 year sentence, her own mother. Just a few years back. Dom Violence charges as well. How could I choose to ignore this??? Dumb, and dumber!!! More accurately… Dumbest!!!
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:27pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Flat broke,
We have a custom around here in case you haven’t happened on it. I am a crusty old lady with a cast iron skillet and if you call yourself “dumb” again, I will “boink” you and flatten your skull with it! (Love taps only! LOL) Seriously, I think you should change your mind set about thinking of yourself as “dumb”—actually you are not, none of us here is. It seems that most of the time (from research done by Dr. Leedom,) they actually target people who are competent, and smart, but they are SOOOOO good at pulling the wool over our eyes, and the “love bomb” they do to us at first is so convincing that just like a cat stalks their prey and gets them in a place they can’t (easily) escape, so do the Ps. There is a definite pattern here.
I am a retired medical professional (Registered Nurse Practitioner) with several years in in and out-patient clinics treating mental illness AND working with psychopaths, Dr. Leedom is a psychiatrist for goodness sakes! If anyone should have known we should have and there are other people here who are equally bright and educated and got hooked as well.
Actually, when I came to this blog (I had been on others that were not nearly as good) I was amazed to find such a group of educated, smart and fantastic people—all who had the same problems I did—falling for the con of a P (or in my case multiple Ps) When my P X-BF targeted me I was a fairly recent widow after losing my husband in an accident that I witnessed. I had PTSD from that and was the perfect target for a serial cheater who wanted a new wife to keep his harem at bay, since his first wife of 32 years had caught him LILTERALLY in bed with one. she had suspected all through their marriage and it had also been a violent one, but until she actually caught him in the act she was not prepared to toss him. He just needed another ‘respectable wife” and picked me out.
He love bombed me and seemed so impressed at the respect I have in my small community and the fact that everyone recognized me, treated me with respect and so on plus the fact that though I am not wealthy, I live well on my family’s old farm and my family has been here sinice 1833. He was super impressed with this, and even love bombed my mother and my friends and my sons. fortunately, once he had me hooked, his real personality started to surface and I kicked him to the curb after 8 months, but it broke my heart and threw me into the depths of despair, the abyss of horrible pain. Even ini o nly 8 months it seemed like my life was ending!
Dealing with family members who are also Ps has been equally traumatic or more so, at one point, I literally had to flee my home for many months in order to save my life. It’s been a rough road for about 3 of the last five years, but I am finally healing and moving on to a better life than I have ever lived, and I will be 63 next month! I’m only now in the last couple of years, due mostly I think to what I have learned and the support from LF community. I’m “fixing” what was broken in me that left me vulnerable to the con jobs that the Ps are soo good at. I have, as Matt says, thinned my Rolodex down to only people that are truly good friends and family, and it is quite thin number wise, but I iam 110% happier!
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 3:41pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Wow, OxD,
I apologize, and it won’t happen again. But you know what I mean. I consider myself intelligent as well, but when you consider what I allowed, it is not consistent with that.
You brought up some amazingly similar incidents that may have worked in her favor. I was in a horrible car accident only a few days before I met her. My car was totalled by a telephone pole, and fortunately I had survived unscratched, but literally within inches of my life. I was totally stressed out at that time, she knew I was. So, yes, she dropped the bomb on me too. I think she was impressed by my house, property, cars, although I am not rich by any means, and unemployed for 7 months now.
Interesting you bring up the subject of thinning down your rolodex. One of the things I noticed was her uncanny ability to meet new “friends”. I called them acquaintances, but maybe more accurately they were potential victims. Tons of them.
Personally, I think when it comes to friends it’s quality before quantity. So how did I overlook that??? Yes, I think she wanted a respectable husband to cover her tracks as well. Well our months were almost the same, mine a couple less, but very close to yours.
We are lucky on that part.
Sorry you had to go through all that, but happy you are fixing it. Hope to be doing the same in short order. Even though I “know” there was never really a relationship, it still hurts to think about what “could have been”. Tough to deal with.
Thanks,
amazing similarities…
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 4:16pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Broke,
We used to have a joke on here where one person would describe their x and someone else would say “were we dating the same man/woman?” There is so much similarities in how these toxic jerks behave, like they have a “Psychopath’s play book” and get their ideas for end runs from the same page.
Yes, it DOES make you feel stupid, but coming here I saw women who were bright and educated and they fell for the same crap I did—the love bomb. The cyber skillet booink started with my friend Henry, who used to be really down on himself and we had a good cyber relationship so I knew he wouldn’t be offended for me “boinking” him so it sort of got to be a joke and other people started borrowing the skillet! LOL Or they would say, “you better not say that again about yourself or Oxy will get you when she comes back on line.”
I think we all have a tendency to denigrate ourselves and beat ourselves up, but it really is NOT a productive thing for us to do.
As we start to learn and heal from THEM it is all about them, but as we progress on the “road toward Healing” it becomes about ourselves. They are like a predator who can pick out the one animal in a herd of 1000 who has a limp and they home in on that one even slightly wounded animal that is more vulnerable than the rest, and people who have had financial reverses, deaths in the family, just broken up, recently widowed, the lonely, etc etc are all in a vulnerable position. women who are hearing their biological clock tick and on and on and on. ANYthing can make you vulnerable including a family of origin that is less than functional. But it is generally people with excess empathy and caring, who dont’ want to hurt someone’s feelings, and oh, did I mention sex and love bombing, and “I love you” on the second date?
It is all rush rush get their hooks in, separate you from any support base you have, isolate you so that they only have the input into your life then devalue and use you, then many times discard you, then when things go badly for them, they pop right back up saying what a mistake it was to leave you for the OW/OM and how you really were their one true love…ya da, ya da.
They don’t respect boundaries and they are ENTITLED to what you have. If all else fails, then they smear you to anyone who will listen.
This site is the best site I have found on the internet for both support and information. there is respect from other posters toward each other and good information on the articles (even if I did write some of them myself–hanging head in faux humility) LOL
Smart people with good hearts! What more could we ask for in such a place. People to hold your hand, support you, give you some good advice, and just “get it” and have an idea of where you are in your healing journey.
I have seen some amazing examples of healing here, when people would come here in a total state of chaos and pain, and remain and learn, and help others on their journey toward healing. I think healing is a JOURNEY, NOT A DESTINATION, and in the past I have been on the road, but felt myself “okay” and jumped right off the road back into the swamp of psychopathic relationships. NO MORE. It is time for me to STAY on that road, to be a life-long learner, and work on ME. I can’t do diddly about them, but I can take care of myself.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 6:28pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Well OxD, you certainly have mentioned a lot of the same situations I found myself in. “Love you” all the time, oh, and, “nothing has changed” after fierce showdowns, a few days later. I called her on that one too… nothing has changed… and that IS the problem…
and yes, my father died a couple months ago, my mother 5 years ago. Yes, she claimed she would tell the whole town about me being an abuser.
You are right, even though I got her out of my life , and it is recent, and she has disappeared entirely for now, but her ridiculous horse addiction (2 of them), is about to become an insurmountable financial burden on her. I expect she will be testing the waters soon to see if there is any more money to be had for that. So hope I’m prepared for that one coming up. Oh, forgot to mention, gas, food, lodging… etc. Basically they want you to be responsible for their whole life! HA! Never thought about it before, but maybe they view responsibility as a problem for everyone else to deal with, because they are above all that. Entitles them to procure your funds.
Thanks again for all the amazing similarities.
Broke
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Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:50pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Broke,
Yes, “responsibility is a problem for everyone else” and if you don’t provide for them, then YOU are BAD….you drive them to the arms of others, you drive them to scream, you do this and you do that…never their fault. Never their responsibility.
BTW I don’t have a “horse addiction” I have a donkey (ass) addiction, and yes, I have two of them….but I support them! so you are off the hook on my addiction! LOL
They feel ENTITLED to what you have, and they feel entitled to the BEST without any effort on their part. Just their presence (to tell you what a jerk you are) is enough payment for what they get from you. ah yes, P-Playbook page 201, paragraph A. LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 7:58pm
FlatBrokeNow says:
Well at least you are responsible for your ass sets.
Oh yes, and her life was perfection before… waited on hand and foot, even had staff, 24/7, and an expense account, but that all ended in violence, and well documented on line in newspaper articles.
At least that was her version, the accused perp (a very well known celebrity) was represented by a throng of lawyers, never admitted guilt, and it never went anywhere. So all this need of money is something new… right. My guess is that this has been going on since she was a teenager. Brings to mind that old saying…
Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly is to the bone.
Broke
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 10 November 2009 @ 8:23pm
millie says:
I just discovered this site today. I have been obsessed with someone who I believe to be a sociopath–for four years. I met him at a 12-step meeting and it was “love at first sight.” He treated me so good at first and was so in love with me, but then he stopped. He got “clean” but soon started chasing women and gambling. He has been in and out of my life. He came back in my life recently. He only wanted me because someone “broke his heart” and because he relapsed on his heroin addiction and wanted to pull me in and have me strung out and paying for his habit. After a few weeks and a few thousand dollars. I got away. I kicked heroin on my own. I left town for a week, but he begged and begged me to help him withdraw– help him move his furniture out of his duplex to put in my place– well he didn’t kick, he just stole and lied and terrorized me. He told me to just sell the furniture so that I could make back some of the money he went through. He pawned his truck to the dope dealers and kept wanting to borrow mine. He got really weird one night and I got this very strong premonition that he was going to take my car and/or hurt me.
I finally wouldn’t let him back in. (He’s not just a drug addict. I know that all drug addicts are not sociopaths, but he is– whether he’s clean or not.) He has hurt me so much over the last four years. Cheated on me. Lied. Stole. Put other women on the phone and let me know that he had been with them. He would scare me. Very sadistic. Every time, I would start to get over him, he’d find a way to come back.
I don’t know why I let him back in. The hardest part is that I had a girlfriend who I have confided all my hurts to about this person. I thought she understood. She agreed that he was dangerous, but I found out recently that she has been trying to contact him, but she lied about it. I don’t know why she did that. She has a boyfriend. I don’t feel that she was trying to “pursue him.” Did she not believe me when I told her about him. He seems to charm everyone. I don’t get it. He’s on a probation, for several crimes. I am just hoping that he will get arrested and he will go back to jail. (If he violates his parole, he has to do four years.) I feel guilty for wishing this.
The other day I found a note on my door from him, telling me to call his aunt. I eventually did. She said that I had his furniture, as if I stole it.
I don’t trust anyone anymore. I don’t trust people at 12-step meetings. I don’t trust people to keep confidences. I don’t trust “falling in love.” I haven’t felt anything for a man for 4 years–since I met him. I feel foolish and damaged.
I feel deep shame. I get nervous just going to the store.
As I re-read this, I am struck by how bizarre this sounds. I do not come across like a 45-year woman with two Master’s degrees. This is a little embarrassing. It sounds so ridiculous when I read this to myself. I’m going to post this anyway.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 11:05pm
henry says:
Millie – Welcome to LF. There is nothing you can not share with us. We believe your story and yes it is bizarre but every word you say makes perfect sense. I am glad you are free. Read read read. I recommend a book “Meaning from Madness” by Richard Skerritt — hang here and read and post, there’s always someone to respond to you..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 11:21pm
PInow says:
Henry,
I told a professional involved with my legal case that I now have over thirty books about the S and APD and “Just like his father”, and this smart, educated, experienced professional who is wrapped around my P’s little finger answered: “are you sure you need to read all these? sounds like it’d be better to try and forget and move on…” Thank God for impulse control. Because at that moment I had no desire to control mine.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 15 November 2009 @ 11:48pm
kim frederick says:
Millie, I’m glad you’re here. We have alot in common. My X is a crack addict. For seven years I lived with it. His primary goal in life was to stay high and find a way to survive without having to work for a living. I guess that’s why he had me. I could worl doubles, graveyards, etc, to pay the rent and he’d be stealing the electric bill money. They day we split up, the last time we were in the yard and the glass front door was locked. He picked up a cinder block and walked up to the door, and threatened to through the cinder block through nit, if I didn’t unlock the door so he could get to the rent money….
so, I unlocked the door, he got the money, and I didn’t see him for three days. I was evicted, because I was already behind. There’s sooo much more to tell, but that will suffice for now.
I’m 50, and have an MA in Literature. I am very familiar with the 12 steps, and the dynamics of groups. I have been NC for just over two years. I’m feeling much better now, and give thanks everyday that something really, really bad didn’t happen. I ended up in a shelter for a short time and I was so afraid of losing my house, but in the end it was such a blessing. If i kicked him out, he’d remove the window AC unit and climb right in. He’d stalk me, call me, harrass me at work. I was very isolated and didn’t have much support, I didn’t reach out and talk to people, so I would always cave, ussually out of sheer exhaustion. I also had this sick, sick, sick belief that I needed him to survive. Well, anyway, being evicted finally got me to a safe place where he couldn’t get to me. After 7 years I finally had a chance to take a breath and reflect on the insanity.
I am by no means well, but I am much better, and I promise you that there are better days ahead.
Again, I’m glad you’re here. Keep coming back.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 12:21am
OxDrover says:
Dear Millie,
I also add my welcome here, this is a healing place.
12-step programs can help people stop using who are NOT also sociopaths, but a sociopath with or without alcohol/drugs is still a sociopath.
in AA they call these people “dry drunks” because sober they act worse than most drunks.
Oh,yes, they come on strong and “love bomb” you at first, but then the REAL thing comes out, and because you had kicked a habit, you felt EMPATHY for anyone trying to kick, so you got SUCKED back in—however, this is one reason the substance addicted try to hook up with someone who is understanding of their “problem.”
No, you are NOT stupid, there are women and men here on this blog who have lots of smarts and education and they too have been sucked in. (read the true love fraud stories) In fact, I think the educational and smarts level of this particular blog is higher than any I have been on. Also medical and psychological professionals as well. I am a retired Registered Nruse Practitioner with medical and psychological experience and education and I got hooked more than once.
Learning about psychopaths is usually where we start and I recommend that you go read the archived articles, read them all and there are hundreds, but they will help you understand not only the why of the psychopaths, but why you were targeted and why you “fell for” it. It starts out about them, but in the end, it ends up about US and healing US and chinking up the cracks that made us vulnearable.
I was never addicted to illegal drugs or booze, but I was/am addicted to nicotine, and giving up cigarettes was one of the hardest things I have ever done. It took many tries before I was successful. Even now if I get stressed, the desire for one instantly hits me, and I know that I am one cigarette away from being a smoker again.
Glad you are here and hang around, this is a great place, with good information and great and supportive people. God Bless.
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 2:54am
kim frederick says:
Skylar, do you remeber that link I posted about a month ago about staying NC through the Holidays? I can’t find it, now. I thought it might be very helpful for the ones feeling lonely this holiday season. If you can remember, please post. Thanks……….:)
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 9:30am
skylar says:
Kim,
good morning.
I tried to google and search for it, but nothing came up and I don’t think I saved the link.
The holidays are goiing to be hard but no harder than they were when we were WITH P’s, I’ll bet.
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 11:52am
kim frederick says:
Sky, yes, I tried too. I’m gonna keep looking…..it was really good.
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Monday, 16 November 2009 @ 11:55am
ErinBrock says:
this thread is for Harmonyman……
I think it would help you immensly to read the great articles here and learn from others experiences……
you’ll be okay darlen…..keep strong!!!
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 11:20pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 11:42pm
ErinBrock says:
Thanks for moving my smilies……..NOW your the nutty one!!!!!!
That 600 post thread is just sticking to the bottom…..
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Thursday, 18 March 2010 @ 11:47pm
shanmoo says:
This seemed like a very appropriate blog to post a wee poem to, about moving on, goodbye lie welcome truth. Hear hear!
I have been quiet recently as my life has been like a whirlwind of different emotions the last few months, and I decided that I needed to move house. I have given up the flat in the middle of the city, and Im taking off to the beautiful countryside where my S had promised me we would live. It was a chance that came up — and after a lot of thinking I decided to do it. For myself, not needing a man to take me away. I will need to get a car – but it will give some independence. I need to heal, and I think that is hard living up 10 flights of stairs in a battered old flat in the miserable part of town. A flat that is filled of memories, of my S-lover, and all the bad and good things that he did to me. And this place where Im moving to … I stayed up there many times and have missed it so much .. yes, he is in that geographical area at the moment, but he is a recluse, and it is just so beautiful and peaceful Im not going to let him stop me fulfilling some of my dreams. Besides, theres a new man in my life who Im hoping things will work out with and he is definately on for staying up there with me ..
Before I took this decision, I was still mentally battered and it was disabling, but I knew I needed to do something — I deserve more than this “battered S-victim” for a life, with all the anger and crying that goes with it. I wanted to start putting behind and start forgiving in some small way. In that process, I needed to express, so I wrote this poem. I only just remembered about it again, when I found it whilst sorting out and packing. I bet the words are familiar.
Its about yes the lies, the cheating, the whys and how could yous, that he went as far as coming to my country to stop me from moving back there, and the little thanks for how I stuck by him despite his alcoholism and drug addiction … but its also about how I have been a woman who loves too much, how I threw myself hastily into a relationship that had all the warning signs, that after we were finished I became obsessed and haunted … him and his issues became my addiction. As much that he pervaded everything in my life even my morning cuppa and shower ..
Querying pictures
You are the picture I awake to
Dropped hastily by my bed
Black and moody shadows
That arouse my sleepy head
Why did you come and find me
In that dark time in my life
Did you see my vulnerability
My scars, a victim to jacknife
How could you have been so smitten
When your past was still in progress
How could you have lied and told me
That past was never your princess
Why was I only worth a stand-up
A let-down, cheat or silence
Why tell me, buy in, I will be there
… Then pay me with your absence
How could you go the miles you did
On that false economy ticket
Make the promises of a future life
With a special no-guarantees limit
Why did you lie say you’d be good to me
The best husband lover friend good father
To keep me from staying the miles you had travelled
When the truth it just couldnt be further
How could you say we were the only ones
You, your little girl and I
When alone in a place far away from your mind
A forgotten son and his mother cry
How could you backstab the one that carried you
Painfully shared your addiction tripped cover
Show thanks by rejection not love or affection
Except for your unfinished lover
Why all those months of desperate falsehood
To not be alone or without
Did I really fall so deeply in love
With a man who was anything but
But whatever you did I still loved you
Foolishly unconditionally through sickness and health
My life you became, nothing else did I want
Crashing there on the flight of your stealth
You are the coffee I drink in a hurry
Tearing fingers frantically through my hair
Sweet liquid thoughts kick my heart in gear
My own addiction that leaves me bare …
You are the water that covers my body
The shower momentarily drunk in haste
The hands that sponge the overflow
…. Of false love, I will always still taste
(btw, for those who dont know “smitten” means “hopelessly in love”)
It might not all rhyme or make sense to everyone, but it has helped to “get it out” in this way, Im sure you can read the anger in it, as I was still angry at that time. One day I might send it on to some people who need to read it (those who criticised me for “my treatment” of him). ;o). Has anyone else written anything such as a poem or song they would like to share? I do recommend this kind of expression – if not just for the challenge.
Im glad to say that I have come a lot further now. I dont think about him 24 hours a day anymore, but he does pop up in my mind still here and there. Im slowly, very slowly moving on. It will be interesting to see how things progress after I move house. Right now I cant see further than a load of boxes!
Thank you.
Shanmoo
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 1:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Shanmoo, Thanks for sharing! Glad you are moving on!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 10:29am
silvermoon says:
Shanmoo
Beautiful.
Yes these days are good.
Yes, these days are good.
Hi Ox!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 10:47am
shanmoo says:
Thanks Silvermoon and Ox, and you are welcome!
Im now trying to “use my wisdom” to a dear friend, who is on the verge of moving back in with an alcoholic ex, because she is unable to find a place of her own to live in. Or, she is unable to cut that tie …
It often seems like the pain and difficulty will never end, but it CAN get better, if we want it to, but it is up to US to make change.
I felt a bit of strength – and I grabbed hold of it.
And now I look back …. Im just so glad Im AWAY from that relationship, even if I do miss that Idiot at times… (yea I admit it … dont we all sometimes ..).
Fingers crossed that my friend will go and take help and not go back to the Alco. She is lucky – not married to him and no kids! Run! Always easier said than done of course ….
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 1:00pm
OxDrover says:
Shanmoo, I am glad your friend has you to support her. I hope she will come here to read., KNOWLEDGE=POWER and hopefully she can gain the knowledge and insight she needs to break away!
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Wednesday, 12 May 2010 @ 6:56pm
Delta1 says:
RE: Red Flags
Hello,
This is a strange little post. I feel compelled to write it here on LF the only place I can think of where anyone might ‘get this’.
I don’t know where this memory has ‘triggered from’ – but anyway – someone else may relate to this and it may help someone.
It helps me to vent anyways.
About 2 months after meeting my ex N I had a major attack of psoriasis (skin complaint). This was a major red rash which ran right over my chest, legs and back.
I’ve had this condition since a small child, but last attack was aged around 6 yrs old – not long after my father left the family home (and I didn’t see him or have contact again until around 16 yrs).
Anyway after starting to pick up on some ’small clues’ and flags about my exN. (I noticed casual rudeness to others, also that he didn’t seem good at repaying loans to friends etc etc). Along with some suspicions about his behaviour with a girl at a party I was seriously considering ending the relationship at this point.
One day around this time, after exN & I spent the night together I woke up the next day with an attack of Psoriasis that had started to on my chest. Within 2 days I was ‘covered from head to foot’ in a flaming, itchy and painful ‘rash’.
I remember asking myself – “what is my body trying to tell me’. In my animal instinct I knew my body was trying to tell me something was really wrong.
I treated the skin complaint with a steroid cream, it went away and did not come back. I thought maybe it was stress from training/work etc. However afterwards I still vaguely felt for a fleeting moment that I ‘missed a warning’ somehow.
It probably sounds crazy. But I know there was a connection.
Maybe I’ve got and overactive imagination, but I think my body knew this man would connect me back to my most ‘primal’ injury, sensed it, felt it and ‘warned me’.
I talked myself out of listening to my ‘inner animal instinct, or gut’ at that time, but I’ll be listening more carefully next time and protecting myself better.
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 7:28am
Wini says:
Delta1, I worked with several co-workers that this same skin rash would break out all over their arms, chest, neck, back after they were beaten down by the Spath’s that worked among us. I believe it to be the “flight or fight” instinct that is built into all of us for survival. Mine is the turning inside my stomach. Some folks feel the hair on the back of their necks rise. I can actually walk down an isle in a supermarket and instinctively know that an evil person was down that isle before I arrived because of the warning signs my stomach gives off. I wished I could have sensed my EX like this … but then again my flight or fight instincts were contantly going off for 6 years daily/hourly due to my bosses and the multitude of evil cronies during that time. I believe their evil covered his evil up. Actually, I thought I’d wear it out.
Peace.
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 8:49am
Delta1 says:
Hi Wini
Thankyou for your post. I found it really validating and healing at quite a deep emotional level, which surprised me by how much emotional is unleashed as it didn’t really seem like a ‘biggie’ when I posted it.
I have always had trouble ‘trusting my body’ and this post has tapped into something I want to explore further for myself.
Poor old body – ignoring her when she frantically signalled ‘danger, danger, danger!!’
I know several other LF bloggers have talked about lots of body issues here to on the site and I’ve been trying to make friends with my physical being for quite awhile now!
Anyway – your post is very much appreciated.
Delta1
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 9:04am
Wini says:
Delta1, I knew about my stomach being my flight or fight response since I was a kid. I drove all my girlfriends in H.S. crazy when we’d bar hop throughout the state … We’d drive for hours to get to a new club (new to us) and I couldn’t walk through the door. My stomach would flip flop all over the place saying “danger, danger, danger Will Robinson”. Same with your rash.
I’d find myself standing outside the establishment for the entire time my friends were inside having a good time. I was not popular with my friends during those episodes. Thank God it didn’t happen all the time, but enough times to aggravate my friends.
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 9:19am
Buttons says:
Delta1, it is not uncommon for negative energy to be manifested in a physical way – bless your heart, what a terrible condition!
When I was still with the ex spath, I was often either physically sick, or I would sustain injuries that weren’t the result of the ex spath’s abuse.
All of that negativity has to go somewhere – the “normal,” empathetic mind cannot process the types of negativity that the spath creates, so the body has to physically purge it via illness or random injuries.
Brightest blessings!
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 9:36am
katybird707 says:
Wow, how profoundly you put into words exactly what I have been experiencing the past few months. You are very talented. It’s been hard to say goodbye to my N and to simply move on because it nags at me to let him WIN. Winning, though, is truly relative. He will spend the rest of his life feeding off of the love expressed by his victims and today I get to start living the rest of my life as a strong, powerful woman.
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Thursday, 15 July 2010 @ 12:39pm