Normal behavior and the sociopath
PDF Last week I did something that I really didn’t want to do. Thursday evening, I went out in the cold and rain to sit through a “customer appreciation” dinner at the dealership where we leased our car. My husband, Terry, wanted to go, but he couldn’t, because he just had knee surgery and was supposed to stay off his feet. So he put on his best smile and cajoled me into going. The event included a drawing for a big, flat-screen TV, and to win, all we had to do was show up. There wouldn’t be many people there, so our chances were good.
I knew I wouldn’t win the TV. I’m not the lucky one—he is. Plus, we don’t need a TV. The one we have is fine. But Terry, like most men, is a gadget guy. He really wanted to try to win the latest in TV technology. So to make him happy, I went to the dinner.
This is what we do when we’re in love—we try to please our beloved. We’re cooperative. We acquiesce to their requests. It is normal behavior in an intimate relationship—behavior that gets perverted when the other person in the relationship is a sociopath.
Giving in to requests
I remember the requests from the sociopath in my life, James Montgomery. They all came after he proclaimed his love to me:
• He needed money to cover expenses until his big business ventures, which would benefit us both, were funded. Could I help out?
• He wanted to take me to Australia to show me off to his family and do some business. Could I put the trip on my credit cards?
• He wanted to get married quickly. We were in love, we were adults, what were we waiting for?
• He really needed a new computer—it was important that he work with the latest technology. Did I believe in him? Would I buy it for him?
Although I had trepidation about many of the requests—especially as my savings diminished and my credit card balances grew—he cajoled. He proclaimed his love. He talked about our future together. I acquiesced. I gave in. I caved.
My behavior was normal for an intimate relationship. When two people are together, we cooperate with our beloved. We try to make him or her happy.
That’s the problem with sociopaths. They appear to be normal, but they are not. Consequently, we respond in normal ways, and get ourselves in trouble.
We weren’t stupid. We were deceived.
Sometimes sociopaths can keep up the façade of normalcy for a long time. In my case, my ex-husband never deviated from the “I love you, we’re in this together” script. That’s what kept me behaving as a normal wife would, accommodating his requests, even to my own financial detriment. It was only after I found outside evidence of his treachery that the whole charade fell apart.
Most people are normal
So now what? How do we keep ourselves from repeating the miserable experience of the sociopath?
First of all, we know they exist. We know there are people who look normal, just like us, but are missing the parts that make us truly human. They have no conscience, no empathy, no emotional connection to others, and no remorse.
Secondly, we must learn to trust our instincts. When someone generates an atypical feeling within us—nervousness in the gut, prickling on the back of the neck, doubt in our minds—we must pay attention. An abnormal reaction to another person may be our only clue that someone who appears to be normal is not.
The good news is that most people are normal. Most people are capable of love, human connection and supportiveness. Yes, we all have our flaws, but when we are with a normal person in a loving relationship, we can safely do as they ask.
So I went to the dinner at the car dealership. I didn’t win the TV. But by going, I made my husband happy, which made me happy. That’s what happens in a normal relationship.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
skylar says:
oooohhhhhh Kim, ((((hugs)))), sorry about your flu.
Here’s some cyber herbal tea…there.
And here’s some cyber warm milk for pinkydoodle….there.
How is his sweater coming along?
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ErinBrock says:
Kim….so sorry your under the weather……
here’s some cyber WHITE FLOWER OIL.
This stuff comes from a health food store….sometimes special ordered…..the miracle oil.
Caution….KEEP IT AWAY FROM YOUR EYES!!!!
Rub on temples, back of neck. Put a few drops in the palms and rub together until warm and cup over nose (watch those eyes) and INHALE…….oooooohhhhhhhhhh…..talk about cleaing you right up and getting rid of any headache!!!!
Magical stuff! Better than anything you’ll ever find on oxys farm!
It costs about $5.00….cheap!!!!
Feel better dear…..I offer you my White Flower Oil!
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Twice Betrayed says:
I am hearing swine flu is reported in 46 states and my nail tech who always knows everything-said the docs said if you have the flu now…it’s the swine. The guy that owns the health food store said vitamin d is the best prevention and the best absorbed is from sunlight….and that’s why winter is flu season ….so I guess the best is from a safe tanning booth….Dr. Mercola tells what kind are safer. Non magnetic ballasts are safer I believe…want to use electronic ballasts.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
skylar – an older post, but it REALLY spoke to me:
‘Yeah, and don’t ever forget to worship. That makes a benevolent god into an angry and vengeful god. Sacrifices must be made, the more the better, the god’s appetite must be appeased. If you forget the ritual sacrifice, they will smite you and go get new worshippers. To whom much is given, much is expected. – Luke 12:48′
this explains the mechanism by which the howling commensed. thanx.
one step.
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sotired says:
My xN/P is looking more like he has P tendencies ingrained. I now understand many things about his past that were not clear. He told me his father was an attorney and disbarred. Sadly the apple didn’t fall far from the tree. Read the last words of this…
taken together they evidence a chronic pattern of misconduct.
No contact for 5 weeks today. Ended almost 1 year ago. Tough because we had some beautiful times together.
I will never see the person I thought I knew but I will remember.
X of X county, was disbarred on X 00, 19XX, pursuant to a hearing panel’s findings that he had failed to preserve the identity of funds and property delivered to him by third parties for the use and benefit of a client and misappropriated the funds to his own use. He also neglected a legal matter entrusted to him and engaged in conduct prejudicial to the administration of justice by failing to file an appeal on behalf of the client. In another matter he willfully failed to file an appellate brief on behalf of his clients which resulted in his also being suspended from practice in Court of Criminal Appeals for one year. The hearing panel noted that X had been previously suspended from the practice of law in 19XX and reinstated in 19XX with a two-year probationary period.
Another order of disbarment was entered X XX, 19XX, against X pursuant to Disciplinary Counsel’s appeal of a Public Censure recommendation by a hearing panel. In this case the Chancery Court recommended disbarment after finding that X had accepted an attorney fee to reduce the bond of a client in jail and then never contacted the client even though he may have made some effort to reduce the bond; failed to properly account for the receipt and disposition of funds and assets of his client, and failed to keep sufficient records to give an accurate accounting to his client; and neglected to properly keep another client’s physical evidence in a safe place. The Chancery Court found no dishonesty but that X was unable or unwilling to conform to the standards imposed upon lawyers as conditions for the privilege to practice and that while none of the matters taken alone are of great magnitude, taken together they evidence a chronic pattern of misconduct.
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sotired says:
The X owes me money from a gambling debt. No small change but I’ll never see it.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sotired,
Sounds like you are right, that BAD apple didn’t fall far from that tree. Nope I would bet the farm you would never see a dime, but consider it “tuition” to the school of hard knocks for your Ph.D in Psychopathy. I’ve done post-doc work on my degree! LOL I flunked a few classes too and had to take remedial classes till I “got it”—((((hugs))))
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sotired says:
OxDrover,
Thats so true. The toughest and most costly “tuition”.
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henry says:
Sotired – Considering we were unknowingly gambling with our lives, and we are here – I think we won the bet~!
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sotired says:
I hope so. I enjoy your posts and LB. This time I plan to be a winner. Good night
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justabouthealed says:
Just wanted to say that I had to come back to this post today. As I posted before, now being in a normal relationship with a non-P, I have to remind myself he is NOT a P and that he can make mistakes, including huge financial mistakes, but he is not a P. I know that, but I have to remember that some people have a right to be forgiven, do make honest mistakes, are human, etc.
this was an important blog for me, so thank you again.
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OxDrover says:
Dear JAH,
I don’t thinkk anyone has a “right” to forgiveness, forgiveness, which ALSO includes restoration of TRUST is EARNED by a CHANGE in behavior.
The kind of “forgiveness” I extended too my Ps was for ME and it did NOT include restoration, but was getting the bitterness about their deliberate actions out of MY heart. For MY sake.
Yes, people do make MISTAKES but a mistake is NOT a self serving DECISION to harm another. A mistake is a bad decision that may have bad consequences, but it is not to deceive another, or to hurt another for your own gain.
I’ve made PLENTY of bad decisions, based on GOOD intentions or faulty logic, but none of these were deliberately made bad decisions. Yet, I had to FORGIVE MYSELf and that included learning to TRUST myself again.
Having been wounded DELIBERATELY by Ps, it is easy for us to fall into “blaming” others intentions as non-caring or deliberately bad because we have had this experience previously with the P. This is part of learning to trust OTHERS again and trust ourselves to not get hooked by another P. To distinguish normal mistakes from P’s deliberate abuse.
It is a process, and sometimes a difficult one. I use a “yard sttick” of HONESTY to distinguish the Ps from the normal people (who all make mistakes) and if a person is DISHONEST then I don’t need them in my life, P or not. I realize that may be a high standard, but it does keep me safe from the P’s dishonesty.
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justabouthealed says:
I think it is a good standard. I think good people can sometimes be dishonest when cornered or in the grip of an addiction, and of course children are given a pass as they learn about honesty….but a non-P will feel genuine remorse, want to apologize, make amends, feel badly, take steps to make sure it never will happen again, won’t ask you to then blindly trust them etc. If someone is already in my life with a VERY good track record, then I can cut them some slack, given true remorse and a resolve to change, and my understanding of what caused them to head south temporarily.
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OxDrover says:
Dear JAH,
Yes, I agree with you on the LONG TRACK RECORD OF HONESTY, but last spring I dumped a “friend” with a long record (23 years) of friendship and a “give and take” when he suddenly started to get greedy, not over “big” things, but just sort of a little show of greed. Then the really got me when he went back on his word entirely (over a small thing worth about $50) without any prior notice. Then, when I challenged him about going back on his word, he said, “No, I didn’t renig on my word, I just CHANGED the agreement!” LOL
Then he became very angry and started to call me a liar and shout at me, and I cut him off, told him to leave my house and that was the END of our relationship. I realized that I HAD cut him some slack over several instances of MINOR greedy behavior, and no longer wanted to associate with him. He is NOT a P by any means, he is a normal human being, BUT, I don’t want ANYONE in my life who is not reliable and who would act so inapproiately and NOT apologize, but instead, “Make excuses” for his behaviior and to try to PLACE BLAME ON ME. Just don’t need that. Plus, I wasn’t in an intimate relationship with him, but I think I would have done the same even if we had been.
I realize that some “good” people may be baacked into a corner where they feel that in order to protect themselves they might lie, but I don’t “do lying” and those that are close to me KNOW THIS….so while it is possible that I might be able to restore trust with appropriate apology, acknowledgment of the lie etc. it is not a “given” that I would, it would depend on the circumstances, the track recdord and the closeness of the relationship and what the lie was covering up. or attempting to. Over all, though, lying to me means that YOU DON’T TRUST ME to know the “real” you. And if you don’t trust me, why should I trust you?
Plus, was the “problem” someting that they concealed from me because they knew it was WRONG to do or that I would object to it? Or was it an open thing that just happened to turn out badly? People behaving “secretly” about their behavior and acts disturb me a lot. I’m DONE with “lets keep secrets.”
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ErinBrock says:
Hi Ya’ll,
I got a call from my ‘mother’ tonight. No mention of the holidays….just called to say she sent a package……I said….Oh, it must be the 40K i need for the house! She said….Ha, ha…..
She went on to say…..I got a call from the S. She said she didn’t have her glasses on and answered the phone, he said Hi, it’s S. She said she immediately hung up. He called right back and left one of his famous….llooooonnnnngggg negative messages, I got to know oh so well!
She said S went on and on about how he has now lost all respect for them, he had thought higher of them…..but now he has NO respect left for them.
I asked her what she thought of that? She responded, Oh, I don’t want to be in the middle of it!
IN THE MIDDLE OF IT…..WTF….I’m your daughter!
She said she asked the S in May to not contact them again…..
Oh, I see…..hmmmmm……an S will not respect others requests, but when he doesn’t get HIS way (like having access to them, to con again) he gets all pissed off and LOSES RESPECT!!!
OOooohhhhh that hurts?
Does he really think he can bully people into talking to them…..YES….they do!!! It’s the M.O.
He had before….he was slick with the con, had them where he wanted them…..they were more than available to listen to all his lies, manipulations and cons…….and now they won’t give him the time of day!!!!
I know he thought he had them forever…….wherever he wanted them, whenever he wanted them……..
BUT…..he forgot…..ROBBING someone IS A VIOLATION…..and he NEVER thought they would suspect HIM!!!!!
That’s how good he thinks he is!
What I found suspect, is that WHY DID IT TAKE MY MOTHER A MONTH TO TELL ME?
WHY if the message was so disturbing to her, did she not call me and let me hear the message ……..if it would help me to keep him away….a possible violation of the stalking and harassment order????
This ‘move’ shows a control and power play by the parents.
Like….we’ll let her know….but only if she calls us. When it became clear I don’t call them…..she ‘mentioned’ it.
And it was mentioned in a way……of ……aren’t you proud of us…..we didn’t talk to him……we did what YOU requested…..
Baring, saving the message and letting me know sooner.
She also said….well…..he called from his cell phone, so we didn’t know where he was….
I said to mother…..did you find it odd how abusive he sounded, when you didn’t do as he wanted? Did it strike you that HE didn’t honor your request to not be contacted and now that you won’t speak to him…..HE HAS NO RESPECT FOR YOU????
Did any of this hit you wrong????? She responded…. I never thought of it that way?!?!?! I erased the message because I didn’t want to hear his negative words on my VM.
HEEEELLLLLLOOOOOOO….D-E-N-I-A-L…….
My main concern is when he will be back to town and to keep us safe and remain aware…….he was here a few weeks ago and back in the island now…..He’s coming back again…..
He writes EVERY MONTH……on the Child support checks….notes on the memos……
Dec. check he wrote:
hi girls…….waves are great 16-18ft…..be back in town soon, see ya then…..
every month is a new message……
It just surprises me that when someone doesn’t want anything to do with them……an S……they will NOT go away….S’s always get a ‘note’ in somehow……
Normal folks…..when someone doesnt’ care for us….we just accept it and go away….I have NEVER tried to force myself on anyone…..if someone doesn’t want to be a part of my life…..move along….
I woke up this morning and noticed tracks in the snow….is a very peculiar place……they went from the street, around the boys side of the house and out back……..around and back up to the street……we got 2 feet of snow yesterday/last night and these tracks were made at some point during the night…..they were fresh and not ‘blobs’ in the snow…..they were human foot tracks not an animal……my eldest (the PI of the group) asked me this am, if I had seen them? Who was walking around the property during the night?
Anyways……this is the latests in my life!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Erin, How about motion sensor lights around your house, wired to a siren so that if someone is there at night and the lights go on, the SIREN blares.
These are fairly cheap at Radio Shack AND are GREAT! No big deal to put up either, doesn’t take a rocket scientist or an electrical engineer to hook up either.
I got my home alarm system at radio shack years ago, and now they are so much better (mine still works) you can also add cameras that see in the dark or light for like 20 bucks each, and if you had one on each corner of your house along with a motion sensor to turn them on with motion, you would have him or who ever walked around your house NAILED and on FILM as well. You might also put a SIGN up in the yard (or several signs) that says “This property protected by Smith and Wesson Security” LOL
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OxDrover says:
ps Erin,
On your “egg donor’s” behavior, if she had called you immediately on his nasty VM she would have been admitting that he was a “threat” to you after all and that YOU had been right about him being a “threat”—therefore, she would have been admitting that YOU were right before and she was WRONG—and you know that’s not going to happen. Her denial is to protect HER POOR JUDGMENT, even at your expense. Are you sure our “egg donors” are not sibs? LOL
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witsend says:
Guys I could really use some support right now. Please pray for the situation that is going down right now. I believe I need to just let go and whatever is going to happen is going to happen. Please pray for me that I am able tomake the right decisions.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
You know you are always in my prayers! ((((hugs)))) and all my prayers!
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Rosa says:
Witsend:
I don’t know what is going on, but I am SURE you will make the right decisions for your situation.
You always do.
You are a strong, resourceful woman, and you will get through this, one way or another.
I said a prayer for you after reading your above post this morning….actually, I said one for ALL of us.
Christmas is supposed to be a time of joy & PEACE.
Witsend, I wish you and your son peace & love during this Christmas season, and throughout the coming year.
~Even though you may think that is impossible right now (and maybe it is), that is my Christmas wish for you, anyway.
Blessings to you.
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velveeta says:
Witsend:
I can’t tell you how many times I felt just like that — that I just had to let go and trust that no matter what happened I would be okay. Sometimes this gave me a feeling of inner peace.
I am not one known to pray because I often felt like my prayers went unanswered (especially as a child) but I think praying for someone else will work!!! And so I am praying for you . . . to find peace and comfort and guidance.
I used to scoff at people who were extremely religious until I experienced my brush with the devil — and then I knew that if that kind of evil existed then God and all the rest did too!
Namaste
Velveeta
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Matt says:
witsend:
I was thinking about you today — I remembered that this week your son’s birthday is 17 December.
Obviously a lot of things will be happening simultaneously that are both decisions you have to make (will the kid get his one way ticket to LA) and things that will be imposed on you (his school being able to bounce him out once and for all since he has hit the age where compulsory school attendance is no longer an issue).
I wish I had some great bit of wisdom to toss you. All I can say is that this past year has taught me that ultimately you will figure out what is the right answer for YOU and that the answers ultimately come to YOU. At this point it is about you Your son and his decisions are all about him, as difficult as that is for you, as a parent, to accept Keep plodding forward, pal. End of the day, that’s all you can do
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witsend says:
Matt,
I am not posting alot of the situation as he evidentally has found this site.
But I did call legal aide and the laws in my state suck basically and I really am obligated to the support/responsibility until 18 end of it but have no recourse to prevent him leaving? (at 17) I do NOT understand how the law can be so GREY for an entire year?
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Matt says:
witsend:
That is a legal conumdrum if I ever heard of one.
If you are obligated to have him under your roof until you are 18 — I would disabuse him of the notion that he can sit around and watch TV all day while getting 3 hots and a cot. I wouldn’t provide anything except the absolute bare minimum. I wouldn’t keep food in the house — except the bare minimum for that day’s meals. No TV. No nothing. Basically, you are giving him the incentive to leave and in the process running the clock out so that he can’t come back once he hits 18. This is one of the situations where the law is on your side. Nothing says you have to support him in the lifestyle to which he is accustomed or to which he’d like to become accustomed.
Assuming he left sometime during the next year and you didn’t know where he was, seems to me that there would be no way for you to support him since you wouldn’t know where to send the checks.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Wits,
Matt’s suggestion is one that I made to you (and actually threatened my kids with when they were teenagers and felt entitled)
The law says:
I must feed you. Oatmeal is food.
I must house you: Your room is your housing, a blanket and a pillow is your bed.
I must clothe you: two pair of Salvation army pants, socks, and shirts and 1 pair of shoes & one coat for cold weather, from the same source is clothing.
Anything ABOVE THE BARE MINIMUM REQUIRED BY LAW is GRAVY from the goodness of my heart because I love you. But if you will NOT cooperate with me, I will not be inclined to see that you get anything but the bare minimum.
TV is Not a right, computer is not a right, a pony is not a right, etc.
It says I must educate you, so I will send you to school.
Unfortunately, after he went to prison I was guilted into sending commissary money to my P son. Boy, was THAT ever a mistake.
If he leaves i would make no effort to find out where he is, just turn him in as a run away, when I was in florida I turned mine is as a run away and by doing so I was NOT held accountable for the repayment of damages of his crime since by turning him in I informed the authorities that I was NOT IN CONTROL OF HIM.
You are certainally NOT in control of your son. If he comes back and wants in your door, though, I imagine you might be legally entitled to let him in, but I would as both matt and I suggest give him ONLY THE BARE MINIMUM REQUIRED BY LAW in terms of food, clothing, shelter etc.
I would also turn him in to the social security as a run away, or the other option would be to take the money, keep it and then send it back when he is 18 and they would stop payments anyway. That might be simpler than trying to get it restarted if he did turn up, but I would NOT give him that money as HE is NOT entitled to it, YOU are for the purpose of paying for his housing, food, clothing and education. so if you save it for if and when he comes crawling back on his belly begging for a meal and place to lay his head, you will at least have that money, and I know it isn’t a lot either.
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skylar says:
Witsend,
Although I don’t pray as much as I should, you and your son are often in my thoughts. You have so many people wishing you good will, I know things will turn out in your favor. Just remember to stay open minded because God plans for us in ways we can’t even imagine.
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recovering says:
Witsend:
I, like Velveeta, have found myself at times needing to trust in God/Higher Power and know that no matter what happened I would be okay, especially when I had done all I possibly could in a given situation.
When it involves our children, it can be tough to know when to pull back since we are responsible for them, but I wish you well in finding the guidance, clarity and peace you seek.
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Stargazer says:
Erin B,
I don’t know all the particulars of your situation, but I have a totally different take on the incident of the S with your parents. You are expecting them to have the same feelings/reaction that you have but they don’t. They are ignoring him, hanging up on him, and not focusing a lot of their emotions on him. Isn’t this a good thing? Or maybe I missed something. If this is their way of going NC, what is wrong with it? The way I see it, you cannot control other people’s reactions to the S. You can only control your own and then set limits with him. If your parents are allowing him into their lives (sounds like they aren’t) you can let them know that as long as he is in their lives, you have to limit your contact with them. Just from what I read in your post (without, of course, the entire story) it looks like your anger is coming from not being able to control what they do or feel. You may need to let go of that control and just work on keeping yourself safe from him without their help.
I understand that it betrays your trust for her not to tell you about the phone call. But maybe from her point of view, she knew you would be triggered if she told you.
I may be way off here, and if so, I apologize in advance.
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ErinBrock says:
Star:
Thanks for your response…..
I wrestle with this whole thing.
Is it me? Is it them?
The crux is…..during separation, the S targeted them to alienate me…..from them, kids and other/all family…..
He used mother to ‘declare’ me mentally ill, and I was faking being sick……(cancer, strokes etc…) He set them up and they willingly bought into it…..and when I confronted them…..(parents), they hung up on me and refused to speak with me…deferred me back to the S. (exactly where he wanted it).
The way I was treated one would think i was a wild child, drug laden, drunken neglectful,worthless human…….I have always been an example, lived an honest good life, thinking and caring about others……and conscious of doing the right thing…..I AM outspoken and the ‘black sheep’, and never did exactly what they wanted……they would have expected me to be a teacher, doctor, CPA….a professional….I made my own way in life…..created and developed a creative and viable business……but one they could never understand…..I work with wealthy people managing their lives……my parents have never hired anyone to do anything in their lives (contractors/housecleaners etc)…..so this was foreign to them and coulnd’t understand WHY people would hire ME to do anything. My business is not ‘mainstream’ as they understand……but it is in my town.
Parents bought right into the S’s stories and lies….portrayals and deceptions and allowed S to kidnap the kids (under Mental illness claim) and move out of state and they hid them from me and cut off all access.
At time of separation my therapist was alarmed when I asked his advice on how uncomfortable I felt with S calling my parents……he suggested I ask them to refrain or it would affect our relationship. I did….twice….they continued.
I put the request bluntly the last time…..I said….him or me…..
I didn’t understand why they felt the need to listen to his crap…..I tried to explain what he was doing and splitting me apart from any support……she was in denial….. she did say she would stop speaking to him….but didn’t.
Claimed all along she hadn’t spoken to him, but I had proof…..his cell phone was in my name and I saw the calls on the bill……hours of them…..calls placed to them and calls placed from parents to him. They continued to lie and say they were not speaking to him. To me AND the rest of the family….who were boggled by their actions.
They have never ‘validated’ what we have gone through or recognized how they were NOT there for me during my battle of cancer and the other serious health issues I went through.
I told them at one point, “let’s assume either situation was true….I have cancer OR I was mentally ill and ‘faking it’”
“WHERE WERE YOU?” Either situation was alarming and I needed help….whatever you chose to believe……so where were you????
You left me alone to go through my treatments, fly to houston cancer center for testing…. ALONE…..and participated in the kidnapping of my children. They caused an immense amount of damage by their participation to the kids…..they never sought therapy for kids, just remained in their chosen state of denial.
It never meant a thing to them when he kicked in my front door and broke our sons finger, never meant a thing when he portrayed me as mentally ill, alcoholic crazy woman……(who BTW, like one of the kids said….doesn’t mom have to drink to be an alcoholic?…..I’ve NEVER been a drinker…..maybe a glass of wine a month…..it’s just never been my MO…..BUT THEY DO…..they all projected their issues on ME!)
It never made an impact on them when 5 separate judges issued restraining orders AND extended them for 1 year for domestic violance and Stalking and harassment……it never made them think when he wasnt’ working for years and he was traveling to their town, surfing, bringing them lobster dinners, and schmoozing them….HOW/WHERE HE GOT THE MONEY……never meant a thing to them when he woulnd’t contribute to our community bills financially stating he didn;t have any money……as he’s renting cars and flying all over the US…..talking about his bahamas trips etc…..
They chose to keep the blinders on.
When the family was split up…..extended family….my mothers twin got on her shit for how they treated me, my cousins too….I was ALWAYS there for them……I would drive down to see them and surprise them for Birthdays etc….I was always available to cry on, there when they had surgeries/illness’s…….and in the end….I was available to be shit on!
I have thought about my expectations of thier loyalty, and this is what I still wrestle with…..I SHOULDN”T HAVE ANY EXPECTATIONS…….But they are my parents…..and this is a hard pill to swallow…….
There is no ‘mama bear’ type of reaction from my parents…..protect our own at all costs……
I have this…..they do not.
It’s another issue I must deal with…….and I know their actions have spoken louder than any words to me……
I look at others actions and I see no remourse from them……she would be just as happy to pick up where she felt we left off and pretend nothing happened over the past 3 years…..and I WANT VALIDATIONS.
I realistically know I will never get this…..I never got it from them when my brother molested me for 3 years from age 9-11. To this day……it is as if it never happened.
My mother keeps a file on the kids….us……I found my file….and it was all from my teenage years, all the negative notes I wrote to her at 13……her notes of her feelings raising me…..I call it the “I HATE EB FILE”…..
I found it 2 years ago when my brother and i went into the house to hijack email addresses to plan their surprise 50 anniversary party…..(GOD FORBID I PLANNED THIS IN THE CRUX OF HATING THEM, oh I went along and played the ‘loving’ daughter) My brother and I looked through the files and he laughed…..he said, damn she kept everything on you…..none of the loving notes I sent her, nothing positive….just all the shit in one place for her to keep a memory bank on……AND YOU KNOW WHAT……I wasn’t that bad a kid…..I had 3-6 months of cocain use at 18 years old……(got it from the S) and this was a hard period…..and like my aunt says…..they never forgave me for embarrasing them…..I was never arrested, always held a job, always supported myself, never stole anything (outside of the snickers bar at 7) graduated from HS with HONORS, was the star athlete…..played soccer in college……but my life in their eyes…..boils down to 3-6 months as a kid.
I know, because I have been told…..they have never forgiven me for this.
I believe this is why they do what they do…..it’s ‘payback’ for me causing them embarrasment to their friends…….I also never kept the molestation quiet…….If someone asked me…..I told them…….and of course the next question was, how does your parents respond to this? I said, denial…..
So it’s my payback!
HOLY SHIT>>>>>>18 years old?
I do believe their participation with the S was a manipulation to control me…..family called me saying mother had contacted everyone in family requesting no one have contact with me……becasue if I had no one to go to….I would go to them! Some family complied…..some family stated NO….they coulndnt do that……
This was, to me, the ultimate show of control……and very S behavior……
I do believe I get angry because I feel betrayal from them …..I am also angry that I even expect this from them…..
I can’t control them…..or anyone…..others that have recognized our destruction have come to our aid……whatever info they can share……to keep us safe…..BUT NOT THE PARENTS.
I don’t believe they view not sharing things with me as protecting me…..from triggers or whatever…..
I also believe my father called him back after the message….because he always has to have the last word….be the patriarc and put others in their place……be the one that should be feared….(even though he’s a wimp) tell him off…..be in control. These are the things that they leave out……
I see it as continued manipulations……like they will go so far….to keep me talking to mother periodically…..as she is sufficed with my generic answers to her questions etc…..Our conversations are her asking, me saying yes/no. No elaborations……and she is happy with that….because I feel it suffices her guilt.
I don’t send birthday, x-mas or do anything anymore, I spent the rest of my life doing…..to make sure they were recognized and put on the parent pedastal……be the role model daughter….
I don’t believe they do anything to ‘protect’ me……I think its about control, they hadn’t spoken with me since Oct…….and this was a good excuse to call. She needs excuses to call, since I don’t contact them……
I don’t know…..I should really treat them like the S and go back to NC altogether…..
I’m still trying to figure this out….I have a lot to address and confront with the parental side of my life…..the realitys etc….
I know it will be another tough road, very similar to what I am going through with the S……but necessary….I am just not ready to hit that hard yet….but it’s inevetible……
I know the rest of the family is placated when she says we spoke……….
I appreciate your response……don’t appologize…..all input is welcomed!!!
Thanks!
EB
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henry says:
Witsend – I can’t give you any advice but Remember! my Big Bear Hugs are the BEST and you just got one.
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geminigirl says:
Dearest EB, Just wanted to say, I really really feel for you, I have been through similar, but mainly with my Narc and chauvinistic brothers, but my Mum ,[whom I adored,} was VERY manipulative. I dont honestly say she was as cruel and nasty and vindictive as your awful family, but I can quite see how we are set up as kids to be “Spath -bait” as adults. Youve been thru holy hell, and youve emerged as very strong woman. Good on you, as they say here in Australia! You rock, Erin Brock! Just want to send you the BIGGEST bear Hug, and let you know what a terrific person you are!! Love and {{HUGS!!} Gem/Maia XXXX
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henry says:
A big bear hug for EB and for anybody who needs one…darn- it life just sucks some times – Hugs help….
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OxDrover says:
Dear EB,
Reading your long post above made me A) FEEL FOR YOU, and B) remember something my egg donor did to me that absolutely BROKE MY heart and ;made me feel totally LEFT out, but she trivalized it—and she finally talked me into thinking she “didn’t mean anything bad, she was actually trying to protect me! (yea, right!)
My beloved step dad’s sister was really close to me, she was the reason I wanted to be a nurse in the first place—she was, I admit “differnt” and never married (I actually think she was gay) but I adored her. At the end of her life, the last say 10 years, she was FRANKLY NUTS, but she died and wanted to be cremated and her ashes buried with her parents, and she wanted only family there and she wanted my step dad to “say something.” her three niecess and her sister were her only biological relatives besides my dad, but I was ALWAY TREATED as a family member, not “adopted”—\\
But anyway, when they had this memorial service for her a month or two after her death, I was NOT TOLD ABOUT IT FOR A MONTH AFTERWARDS, was not invited, not even given the OPTION TO GO OR NOT. When I was DEVESTATEd because I wasn’t ‘”invited” my egg donor came back with “Oh, I know how you are about funerals and I was only trying to protect your feelings.”
This was another episode of her MIND READING and “knowing” what I thought or wanted or didn’t want.
EB, I don’t think there is an “excuse” in the world that would “hold water better than a screen door” for either YOUR egg donor or mine about how they CARE ABOUT US! You are not alone in this at all! You are in “excellent” company here because I think there are a bunch of us here that like Gem says were made Spath-bait by the lack of consideration we had to our feelings and welfare as children by controlling parents. In lots of ways, I think it is almost a “qualification’ for LoveFraud Club membership. LOL and another BIG BEAR (((HUG)))) Love Oxy
ys
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Dear EB,
YOUR PARENTS SUCK!!!
Best, and a calm caring look to help ya ground afta writing all dat crap out,
one step
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Stargazer says:
Thanks for filling in the details, EB. This sparked my memory of reading about this before. I’m so sorry you are going through this. I may have been a little callous in my response, because they are your parents, and they really let you down and betrayed you in the worst way. It’s really tough to deal with family members in denial. In my case, I stopped trying and walked away. I don’t recall whether you are actually living with them now? If so, you may need to move out to get some space from the situation. If not, I think you may have a better outcome distancing yourself from them, at least for a while. It really sucks if you have to do that, but based on my limited experience with narcissistic parents in denial, they cannot be changed. It took me 48 years to “get” that my mother will never change. It was actually very freeing for me because I could let go of some of the anger, start to grieve, and just let her be who she is. It was always a battle before that to try to get her to empathize with me (which she never really did). The anger and resentment ate away at me. Now when I have anger come up toward her, I scream and yell and throw pillows in a safe place where no one can hear me.
Of all the heartbreaks I’ve dealt with in life NOTHING is quite as painful as when your parents break your heart. NOTHING. I’m so sorry and sending a big hug your way.
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Stargazer says:
Witsend,
I could not find the original post of your latest situation with your son, but I am also send you a cyberhug and keeping you in my thoughts.
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ErinBrock says:
Thanks guys…..
For the hugs, love and support!
AND YES….MY PARENTS SUCK!!!!
Oxy….I feel the same…..as a parent….there is NO excuse to abandon your kids…..and support a S. I just can’t see it…..but it’s smacking me in the face!!!! In disguise! that’s what is confusing in my brain. It ‘should be’….but it’s not…
Reality….it’s walken like a duck here EB!!!!!!
This is the cold hard facts that I wrestle with…..just like I did with the S…..WHY…..WHAT DID I DO TO DESERVE THIS?
The answer is nothing…..just like Oxy and gem and Wits didnt’ raise their kids to be the persons they are…..we sought out better…..
Why can’t I have a ‘normal’ relationship with my parents…..was it because I was adopted at birth and they are disconnected with me? I never felt the ‘odd one out’ being adopted…..we were raised with my mothers twin, her 3 kids also…..there were 6 kids…..4 of us adopted….always knew it, never a secret and I never felt I didn’t belong…..or wasn’t wanted….very contrary…..Even through my teens I played along with I came from a Middle class good upbringing…..but disecting my childhood…..I was always the embarrasment of the family….never like the rest…..I beated to my own drum….I was always the strong willed, outspoken, outgoing, tomboy…..firefly as my grandfather called me.
Now I realize it was my adaptation….my ability to take what I was dished…….
I had an outer shell, but very sensative…..so I had to hide the sensative side and cry alone. I have always been seen as strong……hence needing little nuturing……and I do need nurturing……ALL humans do. I never pushed away nurturing……and when offered people always were shocked at how lovingly I responded.
I’m sure the parents resent me for not following along with their PORTRAYAL of the perfect family….I remember when I was young, and my mother came in with the wooden spoon….I was about 13 or so…..THE WOODEN SPOON at that age???? So I grabbed it from her as she waved it in my face and I snapped it over my knee and said……Which end do you want? She was mortified… When my father came home, my window was open and they shut my window so the neighbors couldn’t hear them yell……I went over and opened it right back up…..and I said, if your not proud of your screaming, then lower the tone, father shut the window, I opened it, he shut it…..I THREW A BOOK THROUGH IT…..to say…okay, now it will stay open…..what was it we were saying?????…..that pissed them off…….they didn’t want the neihbors to hear the IMPERFECT family…..to ‘find out’ we were not perfect. It was that situation that made me realize….HEY we are NOT perfect….I have a brother that is molesting me…, your denying it ..and your worried about WHAT the F the neighbors think?????
This portrayal has always been their MO……and by my ‘causing’ my brother to molest me for 3 years and NOT keep it to myslef, and then doing drugs for a brief time late teens, and marrying my high school boyfriend (at 23) they encouraged and then tried to stop 6 years in…. (way too late)….and having it end this way 28 years later……DAMN…what an embarrasment to the family…….I’m the only divorced one in the family! I take the honor!!!
I see when I am pushed in a hole of disgrace….one I don’t desrve…..I REBEL……and do exactly what I know they would be embarrased by…..Like sending out the Christmas letter of what has gone on ……with my health, my parents and the ex S.
I won’t….dont’ worry…..BUT….I’ll certainly have a chapter or two in my book…..that I will send out to all for Christmas maybe NEXT year…….I will hold way more creedance if published…..not in letter form! Hmmmmmmm…….REBEL EB!!!
(I watched the movie the other night…..GOD I LOVE HER!!!)
Funny, I just got a x-mas card addressed to S and us…all individually named……I don’t think they even told some of the ‘outside’ family we divorced…..how weird is this…..Sorry I embarrased you……would it be more embarrasing if I stuck around and was murdered with the kids???? At least it woulnd’t have been a divorce…..just a ‘hardship’ they could gather pity for.
They have always been able to control my oldest molester brother, he needs someone to tell him when to shit and wipe……..he’s military…or was…but got kicked out…..BUT no one knows he got kicked out as he was ready to retire after 20 years……mother still does his caretaking….all his banking, pays his rent, stores his shit and still has a bedroom at ‘home’ at 45…..but oh, he’s americas hero……that’s what others see…….they don’t see the drunken, sex psycho, wacked out weirdo, can’t keep a gf, childmolesting, dishonorable discharged disgrace……that’s all on the down low……and let’s keep it that way…..
I’m too vocal. I don’t keep the bad shit secret….I WON”T OWN IT!!!!
I don’t feel alone with these feelings….and I know they need to come out……AND I think when I feel fear when the S is ‘around’, I get more and more angry at parents…..for their participation……
It does make me angry I can’t get through to them. It would offer some help to me knowing when anyone talks to S and what he says……but I can’t control what others want to share with me……it pisses me off ……and then digs up all the feelings of how I got HERE.
Here with no trust for my so called family……It’s like I’m in the beginning phase of leaving the s……the feeling are similar…..I want it to be different, but I know I can’t change it……only one choice…..DESTROY THEM…no I’m kidding!
NC would be fine! They have destroyed themselves…..they are old and not long for this world…..AND THEY CAN TAKE THIS TO THEIR GRAVE!!!!! WITHOUT ME!!!!
It kills me to see how my kids have been affected and they are the only gkids to my parents…..I thought they would be the great trip taking, disneyland adventures, beach going, hey come spend the summers with us type of G. parents……BUT NO.
Now the kids don’t call……and they don’t call the kids…..and I know it’s for the best as it stands……less vulnerability for all of us…..but to see how the kids view ‘us’ and how it’s just ‘us’ hurts. No holidays at grammas for my kids…..and the reality was……it was NEVER like that anyways……it was just a fantasy….
I wanted for my kids, what I thought I had with my family……
BUT I DON”T and they don’t either. But we have each other……we have love, support and loyalty and traditions…..with each other…..so I guess it’s a situation of make the best of what you got and learn from the past.
We all certainly have. We all just deserved better!!!!
Wow…..sorry…..I guess the phone call yesterday with the footprints set me off huh?
Thanks again for the love and hugs and validation……
I think that is what I seek……becasue I strive to be the best I can……and not having validation of my situation from the ones who hurt me is a hurdle I must get past.
XXOO
EB
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ErinBrock says:
Star….
No, THANK GOD….i don’t live with them….they are 550 miles away….another state….
I do think I need to do the yell and cry and shout at the pillow thing……that’s all I can do!
I also know….it’s not healthy to keep this anger….
Holy crap……the stress almost killed me…..before.
Literally!
It builds up…..they are traveling the world, cruising and enjoying life across contiinents……as they offer to send me airline miles to get to Houston for the cancer checkup I need…..AIRLINE MILES…..I have no fucking health ins….so how about the dr’s bills…..I have clients offering airline miles …..and car rentals there…..CLIENTS….but the parents can only spew out a few hundred miles AND SHE SAID I WOULD HAVE TO SLEEP IN THE HOSPITAL LOBBY!!!!
She asked how much my apt would cost….I estimated about 13-1500.oo….and she offers airline miles and the hospital lobby.
FUCK OFF!!!!
What about the house in foreclosure……what about the 140K in CC debt for paying for us as he abandoned all financial obligations and I PAID HIS BILLS……
What about the frigging $42.00 they sent me in October for my birthday!!!?????
What about the NO HEAT we can’t use in the house……
Oh…..can I help you plan your 3 rd trip to europe this year…..or would you prefer to end the year in Hawaii with your favorite SIL THE S?
I sound ungrateful…..and I also wrestle with this…..too! But….I am so far buried…..and others that are NOT family have sent me checks for 1K etc…..because they SEE the situation we have been in……AND I WILL PAY IT BACK ONE DAY…..they know my honor…..and my parents could spare a bit of help over here…..but will not…..
And get angry that I don’t inquire on how their vacations and trips were…..
She knitted me an afgan for x-mas…..and I’m supposed to be gleeful! She said….it will keep you warm and cozy this winter….Gee thanks….so would some financial help over here….maybe a gas bill paid to keep the heat on!
She says….your’e doing okay….I said….yes were still breathing….
She says…..oh, I know your managing……
Yes mother….I’m managing……Always have, always will……
The shitty thing is…..I distanced myself for 2 plus years…..and Have spoken with her maybe 4 times since easter, since the S robbed them and they called me to see what I knew about it……(as if I had somehting to do with it)….and the reality is…..distance is the best…for me….
But recently, it doesn’t matter…..I just hate them either way!
I don’t even think if they did everything perfectly (according to me) It would make a difference now……
I WANT THEM TO GO BACKWORDS AND MAKE UP FOR ALL THE SHIT THEY PULLED my whole life……and they won’t and I can’t make them…..
It’s a good thing…..I’m NOT reliant on them……eeesshhh!
I think they would LOVE that!!!! I’d live under a bridge with the kids before I ever went there…….
Okay….for reals…..sorry for the looong rants….kinda like the S’s looong negative messages……YIKES!!!!
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ErinBrock says:
Wits:
I’m sorry….I have ‘dominated’ this thread with my rants…..
I want you to know that I am thinking of you….I know your concerned about the ‘birthday’ coming up……and I’m not sure if there is something ‘knew’ that is arising….
BUT remember……we can only do what we can do and your a wonderufl-caring mother……
If the kids want to have life teach them…..well…..it’s thier choice!
We have given them every opportunity to succeed…..but hey…..what do we know….were only the dumb moms!!!!
Take care of YOU!!!!
XXOO
EB
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