Exposing the sociopath
Last week Lovefraud received the following e-mail from a reader:
I would like to expose the person who bilked me for thousands of dollars. I am going to file a claim in small claims court so there will be some public record, but I thought about having a web site that would be linked when someone Googled his name. Is this legal? If I tell only the truth about him, is that legal? I want to protect other women from this sociopath; I don’t know how. I thought if people were able to Google his name and know about his lies and deceit, they could have the knowledge I never did and could make better choices than me. Any and all information would be helpful.
Many people have asked the same question—can I expose the sociopath? Unfortunately, there is no easy answer. Several different laws apply, and the laws have been interpreted differently by various courts. Here’s a brief overview of the situation regarding U.S. law.
Lawsuit for anything
First of all, there are two types of law in the United States: criminal law and civil law.
It is unlikely that you would be arrested, or end up in jail, for exposing the actions of a sociopath. Although in some states libel is on the books as a criminal offense, it is rarely prosecuted.
However, under civil law in the United States, anybody can sue for anything. Whether the person who files a lawsuit actually wins is another issue—it depends on whether it can be proven that an actual law was broken.
But here’s what you have to keep in mind: If you expose the sociopath, and the sociopath files a lawsuit against you, you will have to defend yourself whether the lawsuit has merit or not. There’s a good chance that you’ll have to retain an attorney, which is going to cost you money.
Some sociopaths love to file lawsuits. And, as we’ve discussed many times here on Lovefraud, they’re experts at manipulating the legal system. Therefore, you should ask yourself these questions:
- Is this sociopath prone to filing lawsuits?
- Does the sociopath have the resources to hire an attorney?
- Do you have the resources to defend yourself if the sociopath takes you to court?
Suppose you’ve considered these questions and you want to move ahead with exposing the sociopath. You’ll want to maximize the chances that you’ll win a lawsuit if the sociopath files one. For that, you’ll need a basic understanding of media law.
Media law
There are two basic types of law to consider when exposing a sociopath. They are:
- Defamation, which includes libel and slander
- Invasion of privacy
Libel is publication of false information that injures a living person’s reputation. (Libel refers to statements or pictures that are published. Slander refers to false statements that are spoken.)
Invasion of privacy is the publication of information, even if it is true, that is highly offensive to an ordinary person.
We’ll take a closer look at both of these types of claims. However, keep in mind that the information presented here is general. Every state in the U.S. has its own libel and invasion of privacy laws—it’s best to research what they are.
Libel
In order for a sociopath to proceed with a defamation case, the following must be present:
- Sociopath must be identified
- Statements made must be false
- Statements must be defamatory
- Statements must be published
In many libel cases, the plaintiff has to spend time proving that published statements are defamatory. Some statements, however, are considered defamatory per se, which means anyone would understand them to be defamatory. The plaintiff doesn’t have to prove the fact that they are defamatory.
Traditionally, defamation per se includes:
- Allegations that injure a person’s trade, profession or business
- Allegations of sexually transmitted disease or mental illness
- Allegations of “unchastity”
- Allegations of criminal activity
It’s highly likely that if you’re exposing a sociopath, you’ll make these types of allegations. Sociopathic behavior typically includes unsavory business practices, sexually transmitted diseases, promiscuity and criminal activity. So you can count on your statements being considered defamatory.
Therefore, you must make sure that your statements are true, and you can prove it. In most U.S. states, truth is an absolute defense in libel cases.
Opinions are often not considered to be defamatory. However, if an opinion includes a false statement of fact, it can be defamatory.
Some statements are “privileged.” This means that even if a statement is defamatory, the person who makes it is excused from liability. Statements made during judicial proceedings in open court have absolute privilege. Anything said in court by anybody—judges, attorneys, plaintiff, defendant, witnesses—can be reported without fear of defamation. This protection is also extended to any legal documents filed with the court.
Invasion of privacy
Publishing private and intimate facts about a person, or information that is highly offensive and is not of legitimate concern to the public, can be considered an invasion of privacy.
Information about the following are generally considered to be protected by the right of privacy:
- Private letters
- Sexual orientation or sexual relations
- A person’s health
- A person’s wealth
Public records, such as birth, marriage and military records, may be published.
Truth is not a defense in an invasion of privacy case. Again, sociopaths often engage in behavior that reasonable people would consider offensive. Even when statements about the behavior are true, you may not be protected from an invasion of privacy claim.
Invasion of privacy claims are sometimes made because of how information is gathered. If you use surveillance, a hidden camera or a hidden microphone, your actions might be considered intrusion.
Free speech
You might be asking, “What about the First Amendment?” “What about my right of free speech?”
The First Amendment of the United States protects the freedom of the press and various rights of free speech from government censorship. The First Amendment does make it more difficult for libel cases to be pursued in the U.S. as opposed to other countries. And public figures often have to prove “actual malice” to win a libel case. However, it does not mean anyone can say anything they want about a private individual.
In the past, only journalists and newspapers had to worry about libel and invasion of privacy laws. But with the Internet, anyone can publish anything, and the law has not caught up with the technology. Therefore, there are no clear-cut guidelines about what you can do, and what you can’t.
Exposure works
At Lovefraud, I know that exposure works. Four women have contacted me from Australia. They met my ex-husband, James Montgomery, who is still fishing for victims online, but after Googling him and reading my story, ditched him.
The same has happened with other True Lovefraud Stories—I know that people have escaped involvements with Phil Haberman, Lance Larabee, Anthony Owens, Patti Milazzo, Michele Drake, Brian Ellington and Bill Strunk.
Because the legal and judicial system is so inadequate in dealing with sociopaths, in my opinion, exposure is the only thing that does work.
If you want to proceed
Therefore, if you’re thinking about exposing the sociopath who victimized you, first you must weigh the risks. Is the sociopath likely to sue? Are you in a position to defend yourself?
If you want to proceed, here are some points to keep in mind:
• Calling the person a “sociopath” may be problematic, unless you can prove an actual diagnosis. Implying a mental disorder is defamation per se. You may want to skip the term and just publish what the person did.
• Make sure you can prove that any statement you make about the sociopath is the truth. Stick to the facts.
• Don’t make any threats, even facetious threats. Avoid statements like, “Does anybody know a good hit man?”
• You may have more leeway if the sociopath is a public figure. In order to win a libel suit, the sociopath would have to prove “actual malice.” For example, if Joey Buttafuoco proceeds with his libel suit against Mary Jo, part of her defense may be to claim he is a public figure.
• If you are currently involved in a legal action with a sociopath, you should probably wait until it is over before publishing anything that might damage your case. The exception to this might be criminal cases in which the prosecutors aren’t taking any action. Sometimes media attention gets them to move, as in the Ed Hicks case.
• If you’ve been to court with the sociopath, you can use anything that was part of the court proceedings—any legal documents filed, anything said in court. Get the transcript, especially if the sociopath lied and you can prove it.
• Public records, such as criminal convictions, can be published.
• If you’re building a webpage to expose the sociopath, don’t make up a cute title like, “Five years of deception.” Use the person’s name in the url. That’s the best way for the page to show up when someone Googles the name.
• Finally, if you’re going to expose the sociopath, make sure you can do it safely. If the sociopath is violent and on the loose, put your own safety before trying to save others.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
holywatersalt says:
Good advice. And another point to remember is that those in the thrall of a sociopath are hard to reach.
You, the ex, have branded “spurned” and “insane” so the new victim wants to believe sociopath.
Convincing anyone is very, very difficult. I have gone the education route- created a blog identifying the traits I experienced. And sometimes I wonder based on my stat counter and the keywords used to find my site if psychos current victims aren’t finding my site….he claimed to have Asbergers. A claim made by more than him I have discovered.
If you have the stomach for exposure, and FACTUAL info you can back up in court, little chance that could sue- I say go for it. Exposing the psycho has been my only closure and helped others.
My youtube film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDIgL111eaY
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 1:12pm
Tilly says:
It is an interesting topic and Dr. Hare also says:
“On the surface, it appears “logical” to deny psychopaths bail because we know that as a group they reoffend violently at an alarmingly disproportionate rate compared to non-psychopaths; yet, we do not know for certain which psychopaths will re-offend and which will not. It is this problem which strikes at the very heart of the dilemma which exists between individual rights and the protection of society. As a society and as individuals, we place a high value on our rights and freedoms and it is from this desire to protect our own rights that we must, by necessity, protect the rights of the collective group – even if this means protecting the rights of society’s most reprehensible members. Thus, even though the evidence indicates psychopaths are the “worst of the worst, they do have the right to the same procedural justice that we all do.”
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 2:14pm
Tilly says:
And when you are a witness in a case (e.g. a murder trial) it seems to transcend everything except how to stay alive.
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 2:20pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Donna:
I THANK you for this post!
These are the questions many, many suvivors face. We want to alert, expose the next person…..people who come in contact and are unknowingly set up to become the next victims or even supply.
This causes great heartache for us knowing we are not the last.
Knowing we have information that can and should be shared.
If someone reads or is told about such behaviors and chooses to continue a relationship of any sorts, then there is nothing we can do about that….but it’s the people that seek answers or protectin or just information on a person…..that should be able to have it to make their own informed decisions.
Thank you again for this invaluable information.
EB
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 3:00pm
swallow says:
My advice for anyone wanting to expose a P on a website would be:
1. Unless you have absolute proof (documented, police reports etc) don’t even consider it.
2. Even if you have proof, expect a very rough ride if he finds out. It could be very dangerous.
3. DO NOT count on friends to back you up even if they have witenssed his behaviour. Even the most well meaning people can put you in a precarious situation unwittingly because they do not understand the nature of a P.
In my experience, P’s usually slip through the net because the vast majority of people enable them to do so. Ignorance, turning a blind eye, magical thinking and well meaning interference all plays a part and you can end up feeling re- traumatised and without achieving anything. I have spent 3 years trying to expose my P and his OW and despite verbal support, NO-ONE who knows what they did has ever had the courage to say or do anything. They have been treated as if they did absolutely nothing. This is why P’s succeed.
Swallow
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 3:31pm
justabouthealed says:
Thanks for this post. The internet has certainly made things more complicated, as you said.
I wonder about the legal ramifications of sites where you can post a man’s name and then give information privately to a person. (watching out for the P in disguise!)
And is sending a private email to someone “publishing” the information? It is all very confusing!
But your blog clarifies some of the usual scenarios and was very informative. Thank you.
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 3:57pm
Easy says:
http://cyberpaths.blogspot.com/
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 4:33pm
blueskies says:
Thanks Easy, I got a lot out of reading that:)
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 4:43pm
skylar says:
holywater, nice blog. Thanks for doing that and helping to expose more sociopaths.
Easy, thanks for the link, it helped clarify some thoughts.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 7:18pm
skylar says:
N-SUPPLIES: START YOUR ENGINES.
http://mail.google.com/mail/#i.....b20467838a
HERE IS THE OPPORTUNITY WE HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR.
I’m directing this link especially at Donna, Steve, Lianne, Louise, Kathleen and did I forget anyone?
Any one else who knows an N-supply with great blogging skills, forward the link.
I would also encourage people to submit an entry even if you don’t think you will win because it will tell the Washington Post how timely the subject of narcissism is. The more people write about it the more important it will seem as a topic to the Post. So that if one of our resident writers does well enough, he or she won’t be drowned out by a more “popular” subject.
Imagine the impact that a weekly column in the Post would have. I would not call the Post a “liberal” media, they are conservative IMHO. so slant your articles not so much toward feeling empathy but more toward the cost to society of narcissistic behavior. Money rules in the real world.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 8:04pm
skylar says:
whoops! the above link went to my email. *how embarrassing
Here is the corrected link.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....index.html
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Monday, 5 October 2009 @ 8:06pm
shabbychic says:
skylar, I’m going to write an article on that site about sociopaths and how they are not just crazy killers, but the “people next door”… N/P/S
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 12:07am
Fighter says:
If you all need some examples, here’s some people from our site who have exposed theirs.
http://doubletrouble.blogspot.com
http://psychopathyandlies.blogspot.com/
http://masksofsanity.blogspot.com
http://thestumblingblock.wordpress.com
http://knittingattheguillotine.blogspot.com
also on the right of our site is a whole list of exposure sites you can use – many of them come up in Google.
http://blogcritics.org/culture.....-it-legal/
Donna is right on about the legal aspects of this. And she did the right thing but telling about Montgomery. Their abuse only exists in the dark and she’s probably helped many women by telling her story. It can be very validating to other victims.
there’s few people here at LoveFraud who have sites about their sociopath. Writing can be healing and you never know who else you may be helping.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 12:45am
Easy says:
In my opinion or for me personaly , the potential risks associated with Public exposure are too High! I think the truth that they are not all bloodthirsty Hanible Lectors Is important but they are All capable of becomming that if pushed hard enough or threatend!
Survival is my revenge! He could take everything else except My will ! or soul!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 1:19am
akitameg says:
Just be careful. they are snakes.
the are vindictive until the day they die.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 5:43am
akitameg says:
Dear Easy-
I agree with you 100 percent.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 5:46am
Neo says:
Interesting topic! After over 18 months of grave concern about a UK “bullying helpline”, and after the operator evaded accountability, I decided to take the unprecedented step of putting what I know on a blog. Under UK law, so long as the underlying facts are true, a person may make “fair comment” about the facts. In this case the facts are published by the operator, and the comment is fair in so far as it is logical deductions based on the facts. I have been threatened with police and lawyers but as yet they have not been in touch. (http://thebullyinghelpline.blogspot.com)
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 5:47am
anf1y says:
I also set up a blog to warn people about my experiences. I did this because I discovered that I and and at least two other victims had Googled for information about him and come up with ZERO. This in itself was a warning! Given that his stories would have been noteworthy if true (member of Olympic Judo team, winner of large bridge tournament, etc) it rang alarm bells with all three of us, and at least alarm bells are a start when you are still bewitched by the charisma!
I hope my site is not illegal/actionable, but it has been worth doing – I have been contacted by other victims (mainly offline as they are too scared to go into print) and a lot of blanks have been filled in, including the fact that he has actually been imprisoned for fraud – something we had suspected from odd behaviour traits.
The fascinating thing is his recycling of stories. As each person has come into his life, the fiction has been embroidered by previous encounters – apparently I am a bunny boiler who won’t leave him alone! – and you can see the “tweaking” of the tales as he improves his technique. I just hope he gets what is coming to him!
(http://mikekennedycon.blogspot.com/)
p.s I may not write much, but I read the posts avidly!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 6:24am
Easy says:
http://counsellingresource.com.....judge-him/
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 7:08am
kimmrobinson says:
Donna: I want to thank you for all the insight you have provided me over the years. I am in the process of putting together all the information you and I have discussed for a future blog. I am also in the process of writing a “user’s manual” to surviving the family court system with a sociopath.
A decade has come and gone and I have sole custodial rights to my son. He is finally able to be a “kid” and live normally. He still has nightmares and sleeps with me often.
For all those just enterong the arena, use this blog as a shoulder to lean on and a means to know that it is not you that is crazy.
Since his sociopathic father lost the court case and parental rights, he has not bothered with my son. I must say that is the greatest gift he could ever provide.
His father continues to haunt me though. I have recently discovered that his bipolar wife used my name and social security number to obtain credit cards and his father has contacted his parents threatening them if they have any form of relationship with either myself or our son.
So the only I see both my son and I being able to move forward and hopefully live a ” normal” life is to expose him for all his fraud.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 7:52am
banana says:
“apparently I am a bunny boiler who won’t leave him alone!”
My S made his ex look like that. Too bad it was he who was not leaving her alone…convincing her to sleep with him whenever I was out of town while we were engaged!
The poor girl knew he had me convinced that she was crazy. I saw the red flags but I didn’t want to see or know the truth. He friend called me once. I handed my phone to my S.
This was about the time she had lost HIS child in a miscarriage (she was on heavy heart meds) just 4 month prior to our wedding!!!!!!
Now here I am. undulating between hope, sorrow and trying to figure out how to expose him…to his GF, his co-workers, employers, her parents, his psychologist….
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:00am
blueskies says:
the thing about exposing the s/p is that it means YOU are still getting (emotionally) involved. You are still ‘in the game’. youre thoughts are still with them:( And you are making yourself vulnerable.I get it though, I tried it, but it didnt work for me…
This is a difficult issue… in order to expose them you are giving up walking away…dusting your hands, letting them be ‘dead’ for you, and focussing on better things… but I know its hard to think that you might be able to DO somthing that could help someone else being hurt and walking away ….
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:32am
blueskies says:
(s/p help some one else ‘to not be hurt”)
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:35am
anf1y says:
Banana : one scary thing he did was to tell stories of his ex and her new partner, and how she was being abused by him, had her arm broken, etc. (He used her supposed disteressed phone calls as a cover when receiving calls from the other women he was seeing whilst with me)
I have now found out through one of the women who contacted me that it was, in fact, him who had beaten this woman up. This ability to divorce himself from reality to such an extent that OTHER people are exhibiting HIS behaviours is frightening.
I got out because I finally spotted not only the game but that it was rapidly escalating as he upped the stakes and I knew he was about to turn violent. Unfortunately, until he did, there was nothing I could do but run – the police were not interested at all. So there is nothing I can do to protect others – even in the unlikely event that other victims would believe what I had to tell.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:37am
kim frederick says:
Bananna, I just got the, “bunny boiler”. ROTFLMAO!!
Never heard that before.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:38am
banana says:
That was anf1y.
Kimrobinson
I am so glad to hear you have sole custody. We here know how dangerous the S’s can be, but my attorney doesn’t get it.
I am fighting now. My attorney wants us to settle. She said there’s no way I would get sole custody, even if we went to trial.
As long as he has joint legal custody he will try to ruin me by disagreeing with everything I want to do. recently it was him refusing to drop my son ff at my place, and saying he never agreed to daycare…he wants his S mom to care for our son…even though when we were married she was the awful mother that raised him and he couldn’t wait till we moved out to live by my parents.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 8:48am
kim frederick says:
Oh, sorry, got confused. I still think it’s hilarious.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:04am
OxDrover says:
I still don’t get the “bunny boiler” unless it is just some horrible person who cooks bunnies alive. Personally, I think they are great dead, but you must remove all the hair before you cook them.
Congratulations, KimRobinson!!! TOWANDA!!! for you!!! Taking care of your child is #1 always and you succeeded in accomplishing that legally. My prayers and hugs for both you and your son!
ANF1y, SO good to see you are lurking around even if you aren’t posting much!
Meg, how are you doing, sweetie? Glad also to know that you are lurking around LF still!!!! Give us an update on how you are doing!!!!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:08am
anf1y says:
The term Bunny Boiler comes from the film Fatal Attraction where she stalks him after a one-night stand and steals and cooks his daughter’s pet rabbit. Apparently Glenn Close herself started the term when she described her character in an interview. So now you know!
It was one of S’s favourite terms for me – always in the context of “my son is warning me you are a bunny-boiler”, and usually used because I had phoned him at an inconvenient moment (ie when he wasn’t where he should have been). This from a man who kept saying we should get married asap, and would meet his family at a BBQ/party/whatever “next weekend” (which of course, always had to be cancelled at the last moment)
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:25am
blueskies says:
Blueskiesapedia says: “Bunny Boiler” : pop culture reference to when Glenn Close’s character in the movie ‘Fatal Attraction’ boils the family pet because the husband she was having an affair with dumped her:(. reference: ’spurned woman takes crazy revenge’.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:26am
blueskies says:
ooh anf – sos posted at the same time.::)x
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:28am
Wini says:
The Masons in the news everywhere today.
A month or so ago, I catch Justin Timberlake’s boosting the Mason Organization for all the fund raising they do (children’s burn center), what a great organization they are. This morning on CNN … big announcements about the Masons and all the symbols the Masons are responsible for in our country. Every where I turn, it’s Mason this and Mason that. Even as a child I attended the Shriner Circus with all the Masons in their velvet hats insuring safety of the parents and their children as they attended the events in our state armory. With that said, why can’t they keep their head of their lodges in check? My EX is a 33 degree Mason, Head of his lodge, was to be an upstanding citizen in his community, yet he took me for everything I worked for ($250,000.00), conned me into signing a mortgage in a house down in GA, that he lived in, not me. I was to move their after I retired. He lived there for a couple of years, then stopped paying the mortgage, pretending with the help of his criminal attorney, that I hired the attorney to get my house out of foreclosure. This head of the Masonic Lodge destroyed my credit history, took me for everything, has my 2 vehicles in his name and fake company name … they are sitting in my driveway rotting away … as my EX met some other unsuspecting woman off line, pretended he was getting his business up and running in TX, when in reality he was taking this woman out to dinner, married her, stole all my possessions from my home, left me high and dry … started his new life with his new wife, with my money and $250,000 of his investors money to start a new life in Texas.
Yes, keep pouring out these Masonic commercials on TV assuming all their members are decent, law abiding citizens…. because I know differently!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:41am
banana says:
Wini,
So sorry to hear of your ordeal. I definately see how lucky I am. Everyday I can get through with what passes for a smile is a blessing. I don’t know how some of you ladies here do it. You truly are symbols of strength and inspiration.
Please remember you are here for a reason and God can use this for your good.
About all these P/S/N’s in management, chair etc. head/lead positions. It’s not that the people in the company or in the lodge have failed…they are as dupped at we are.
It’s just a testament to how convining P/S’s are. ***A healthy reminder that we are not weak or stupid….they are just THAT good at what they do.***
It’s funny I can say this because logically I believe and understand it, but I have to constantly remind myself, and so do others in my life, that it was not ME it could have been anyone…although I respect the qualities in me that made me an easy target.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:49am
a_real_wife says:
Interesting outside links in the comments. I followed several of them, and “shortcut” a few. I am divided on the question posed by this post. I agree that exposing these S/P/N’s is important, but there could be fallout if someone does post the information about one of these soul-sucking demonz.
I actually used information that my guy’s now-ex N and her bf had posted in their online journals. I did “screenprints’ and pasted them in Word documents. Those came in very handy during the custody battle that raged for 3 years.
When I presented or referred to these in court, the N turned things around (! OF COURSE !) and stated, on the record, that “SO, essentially, you were cyber-stalking me…?”
I replied, “No, I haven’t been charged with that crime. You have every right to put whatever you want out on the internet. Conversely, I have EVERY RIGHT, ALSO, to find whatever you have posted on the internet…”
The judge kinda smiled, because my comment (FINALLY) shut the “N” up for a minute. She kept wanting to pick pick pick – and I almost, but not quite lost my cool; a couple deep breaths, while the N fixed her basilisk, empty STARE (you know the one!) on me – I can STARE, too…especially to buy much needed “grace.”
Anyway, on to happier things, now that custody has transferred to us, and the youngun is settled into his new school and scouting.
I’m back in school – YAY! Finishing up the community college level, for transfer to 4 year next summer. My intended majors are Psychology and Criminal Justice (a double Bachelors).
I miss my Tuesday mornings, ferreting through the LF blog, and have had to fit it in where I can, due to the amount of homework and regular out-of-class study time I’m putting in.
I will keep reading, though, because there are ALWAYS great comments and insights to be had on here.
~j~
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:56am
Stayingsane says:
Donna
Important information. You saved women from going down a dark path with James Montgomery, that is powerful…you can sleep at night.
I dearly wish I could warn my ex bf P’s next victim, no one deserves to go through a deception like HIM.
angering the beast and getting demolished due to bad support systems is a risk I’m not willing to take. He has left me exhausted and ill.
Blueskies rings true
‘YOU are still getting (emotionally) involved. You are still ‘in the game’.
But the information keeps flooding my mind, something keeps me returning to this dilemma…it’s an important one.
If there was a stronger network of support and enlightenment more of us would take the chance. We are on the cusp of something huge when we write, inform, encourage and expose the psychopath….something huge.
I often think that’s why we met them, in a way we were able for them and can lead the way forward in alerting, educating and informing others…there are many ways to expose them AS WELL AS specific exposure.
find a way to do that, whether it’s Exposing him bare faced, talking to people about our experiences, taking the P to court, doing a ritual to cut the ties, not only one way…but we have to find our own way…for me walking away has had its rewards, but I can’t rest in peace because
I’m not dead!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:59am
Wini says:
Banana, the Masonic Order NEVER advertises. They stay in the background and always kept a low profile. For them to be drumming up all these media announcements tells me that the old timers are dying out and they are recruiting new members. They need to know that not all their laundry is sparkling clean before they do the media blitz. My situation is difficult to deal with on a daily/monthly/yearly basis. I certainly don’t need this media blitz shoved in my face everywhere I turn.
As for you thinking you got conned because you are a certain type of person. Believe me, everyone is a sitting duck for the likes of them. I’m sure there are many types of personalities that were taken by these monsters … they just aren’t as open or in touch with themselves to blog on this site or discuss their ordeal in any way shape or form.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 10:02am
blueskies says:
Staying sane:)
I know for me right now the best thing is to just ‘get the hell out of dodge’
But , I have mentioned it before, I KNOW the S/P creature is manouvering himself into positions of power over vulnerable people , and it kills me.
If people like Donna hadnt have stood up and spoken out…where would I be? Its a toughy…
I did what I could, I alerted his superiors… but he had pre-emted that, they’d been told to expect a call from the ‘crazy lady’… not sure what else I could do without huge expense to myself… and with mummy narc everyone KNOWS but still not ready to get out of denial… said all I could say there too….sounds like a total cop out doesnt it….
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 10:16am
OxDrover says:
Dear Wini,
The Masons, like every church, synagog, mosque, or any other group that is supposed to be charitable and good has a percentage of PSYCHOPATHS who mask themselves up as good members of that organization.
That’s part of the problem with looking at “groups” as this or that, good or bad, because there is not a group of any kind that doesn’t have its ROTTEN APPLES.
Plus, if we judge the group by the rotten apples, we do a disservice to the rest of the people in the group that are NOT rotten apples.
Most of the men in my family have been Masons and also Christians—both the psychopathic ones and the good ones! I also know some really great men who are Masons and Christians, so just membership in a group doesn’t make them any less of a psychopath, but it does give a “bad name” to the organization when others see them behaving like a psychopath.
In some cases, other members of the group will be taken in because the psychopathic member, they think, is a “good person” because they are a member of a charitable organization.
I went to town yesterday and ran into the wife of my childhood friend and we had a long talk. She has a son who is apparently a psychopath, and so understands my position with my own P-son. I am pretty sure her late father-in-law was a “respectable” ABUSER and her MIL is pretty much like my egg donor “for goodness sakes, AT ALL COSTS keep the family secrets quiet”
As we were talking about our P-sons, she told me that at Christmas last year her son got drunk and rowdy and she ended up calling the cops and having him arrested for assault after he pushed her down. Boy, I bet that went over with her MIL like a whore in church! LOL
Her husband (my childhood friend and still close friend) is not a psychopath or an abuser, but he is a “people pleaser” delux and doesn’t want to rock any boats. I am glad to see that his wife is setting boundaries with her P-son, and standing up for herself. It is good to see people taking a healthy stand even when it goes against the grain in the “family dynamics” of “peace at any price” or “advanced eggshell walking.”
Their other son has “turned out well” and seems to be living a healthy life with his wife and child and not buying into the family “cuilture” of “do what you want to do, just don’t let anyone know what you are doing.”
If we look around, we can find extremely “dysfunctional” people who are “upstanding citizens” and to people who don’t know what is REALLY going on in their lives, they may appear “Ozzie and Harriet” squeeky clean, but the reality is different than the appearances.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 10:18am
Lillian says:
Hello from Lillian: I just had to comment. I exposed my Physcopath on “Dontdatehimgirl.com.” I only said exactly the truth and I took his picture from the Yahoo Personals site as it was already public. He took it to his lawyer but there is nothing he can do because we are in court for the exact things I stated so it is public. Google Neil Wehrlie and if you look through the search results it will be there under Don’t Date Him Girl.com You can all see what he looks like. You can even vote on his behavior. He’s had over 500 hits so far. Best of luck. I am going to have to face him for the first time in over 2 years at a mediation real soon. I lose sleep over it quite frankly because I had hoped to never see his face again. Love to all Lillian
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 10:41am
Easy says:
This might autobe called something else
http://www.hotscams.com/
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 1:11pm
gogettergirl says:
I want to warn you that if you go the route of exposing a sociopath, expect a lot of people to not believe you and feel hostility toward you.
If the sociopath is charismatic enough, he can make people believe that you’re the problem, so be careful.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 1:31pm
Tilly says:
gogettergirl:
This is EXACTLY what I am experiencing now. No _one believes me, not even here, and they call me the “bunnyboiler”. “She is like the girl in “fatal attraction!” The thing is: I hadn’t seen my ex murdering husband for 25 years until now ! And I have to prove i am not the jealous bunny boiler…go figure.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 1:55pm
Rosa says:
Gogettergirl:
I agree.
It almost seems like more often than not, the sociopath has to actually KILL someone before everyone wakes up and finally says, “I had no idea he/she was like THAT.”
Look at the “Craig’s List Killer”, Philip Markoff. He would still be a medical student right now, and he would also be married to that unsuspecting girl if he would have not killed Julissa Brisman in that hotel room.
And, Raymond Clark III, that Yale University Lab Technician, would still be working at Yale, if he had not murdered that poor graduate student, Annie Le, and stuffed her body in the wall of the laboratory.
The examples are endless.
It’s disgusting.
They are VERY effective at pre-empting our attempts at exposing them, and making us out to be the bad guy or even crazy.
That’s why if you are planning on stepping into the sociopath’s ARENA, you better be ready to fight in the back alley, instead of Madison Square Garden. Because it will get low-down and dirty. Get your emotions in check, and build up your stamina.
You are going to need every ounce of strength you’ve got.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 2:16pm
Sarasims says:
A lot of your posts sound soooo similar to my situation. The S/P/Ns have a way of making US out to be the crazy person!!! Exactly what my SP did to me! One day, he’s begging me not to leave town, wanting to have sex with me, telling me how much he can’t live without me and the next he changes his number and won’t talk to me at all. Then when I go to see him at lunch and wait at his car……he tells me I’m CRAZY and STALKING him!!!!!!! Has ALL of the people at his work believing it! OMG!!!!! Then I leave him alone for 2 months and he calls telling me how much he misses me! Tell me…..who’s the CRAZY one!
LILLIAN – YOU ARE MY HERO!!! I am so happy for you standing up to your P! I wish I could do the same. My prayers are with you on your day in court. I would be nervous too….but my wish for you is that you can overcome your fear and walk into that courtroom and look him the eye with the confidence of the strong woman you are!!!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 2:18pm
Sarasims says:
I guess after thinking about it…I am the crazy one for letting this SP into my life OVER and OVER again. Letting him treat me like shit one day then with one I’m sorry – let him do it ALL over again! I’m learning! But the process is slow and painful and the desire to GET EVEN so very great!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 2:23pm
skylar says:
That’s why I like to record my conversations with the xP. Most cannot be used in court but they are helpful to use in private.
But having said that, I spoke with 3 friends of his (2 are a married couple, one is the gf of his friend) The married couple got to hear the taped conversations, but still they just think he is extremely selfish and don’t seem to consider him a real threat, even though I told them that he very likely killed the guy who “gave” him his helicopter. I am worried about them because his bestfriend is their airplane mechanic and I wouldn’t trust the bf of a P anywhere near my plane.
The gf of his friend didn’t get to hear the recordings but is a doctor and familiar with narcissism. She expressed concern about the P working on her boyfriend’s helicopter considering that he owes him $60,000. but I doubt she completely believes everything I’m telling her because she has been his friend for a long time.
NOW, I’ve found out that someone spilled the beans and told him what I’ve said. He emailed me and said he knew I had trashed him to his friends. But I don’t know which one told him.
I suspect it was the married couple because earlier I got a voice mail saying that I had told his best friend, the airplane mechanic, Harry, that he was only his friend because he was stupid. I never told Harry that, i told the married couple that.
Harry is set to inherit some money when his elderly mother dies. Harry is also very lame, lives in a shack down by the river and has only had one gf in his 55 years. Perfect N-supply.
I guess my point is that even with recordings there are people who think all of this behavior is OK! These people can relate to the selfishness, but the also can pretend to be loving and caring.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 2:46pm
9100 says:
I think this is bad advice. Filling a lawsuit against P or starting a website outing them is just another way of keeping them in your life and shows your not really buying into “no contact.” First off, the P will learn about your website a chuckle that they are still affecting you. A P does not get off scott free. They are barren and bored inside and will eventually destroy themselves. You don’t need to do anything, they will destroy themselves. All you do by starting a website or filing a suit is give them more power over you. A P took me for over $10,000. It was a small price to pay to have them out of my life. Focus on your life, not the Sociopath.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 4:03pm
Aussenseiter says:
When I was still together with him, and visited his new employer with him they acted like he was the best thing since chocolate cake. I knew if I just mentioned that eventually he would screw them over also, they would have looked at me like I am insane. He has the ability to manipulate everybody around him. He persuasive manner makes you even wonder about your own sanity, you question yourself if maybe your not over reacting cause yet again he didn’t answer the phone, and was nowhere to be found for 2 days. He goes to school trips with his kid and is just everybody’s hero. His father knows he beat me, his mother knows (I wrote her a letter); his ex knows….nobody cares. Now he is a changed man, according to him and he wants to show me that he can be trusted. I should stop talking about the past and get over it. I want to scream out what a POS he is, but nobody hears me….and even now after I have told him how much I hate him, how much I dislike his narcisstic family..that we have nothing in common..even now, he still tells me how much he misses me and how special our relationship is/was. I took a position here at the South Pole to get away…I am trying so hard to get away…..I know he is sick, I know I can’t change him..and I know I deserve some happiness. I am just not sure about one thing..Are they aware of their actions?
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 4:09pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Aussenseiter,
“Are they aware of their actions?”
YES! Do they care? NO!
If the south pole isn’t far enough away, go to Mars! Get and stay away from him, focus on YOU!
BTW–WE hear you here at LF—cause we have sensitive ears, and no one else heard us either, so welcome! Stay around here, its a good and healing place where you ARE heard!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 5:16pm
easp says:
Thank you Donna, for this post and guidelines.
I would like to know from some one, who to contact in your country
to have some very defamatory stuff taken of this mans websites , he just seems to do what ever he likes when it comes to publishing
lies, he is very a nasty piece of work, I feel very sorry for the previous women before me, he writes some terrible stuff about her.
She also dared to warn other women about him.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 5:33pm
skylar says:
easp, that is a good question since they can use the internet against us too and we would need to move quickly to minimize the damages.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 7:04pm
easp says:
skylar,
They seem to get away with every thing illegal, it is almost as if they are untouchable and above the law.I know if I can do something toward those evil jerks to be stopped I will, what I find very hard to accept, that it does not matter if one is in the USA or Australia or any where in the western world, those criminals seem to be protected, even if one has the proof.I must say this does not say much for our society today.
But as long as there are people like us, we can bring them down eventually by chipping away bit by bit.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:14pm
Wini says:
Oxy, I know you are right about not judging an organization by a few bad apples that hide in plain site in the barrel. My EX being head of his lodge and marching in parades with the other Masons is what endeared me to him at the beginning of our relationship. No one outed him to me. Which tells me they either didn’t know or didn’t want to step over the boundaries of 2 adults in a new relationship. I wished however, one of them spoke up. Even his EX wife didn’t speak up. I suspect he played her as well as he played me. I know I speak up and tell folks when their significant other crosses a boundary of decency. I am known for this … and have the battle scars to prove it. Some folks can’t/won’t handle the truth. For those that do and can, I like. For those that constantly hide truth … I either leave behind or put on some la-la fence. A decent person’s life is to precious to waste.
Oxy, I was just shouting my frustrations with all this news media blitz about the Masons here and the Masons there! It is difficult enough for me to heal as it is, never mind having their organization not watching their members ethical behavior. I wished they’d tar and feather him for what he did to folks. That’s my dream and I’m sticking with it.
Peace.
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 9:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Wini,
People in churches used to put pressure on members to not be “public drunks” etc. but now most churches don’t seem to try to keep their members “in line” (at least publicly”)
Then there are the churches and families like JillSmith’s that put pressure on the members to HIDE SHAMEFUL BEHAVIOR of the members, like her church did the fact that her brother had raped her—family, church, etc. conspired to cover it up.
Same thing in lots of organizations and groups—cover it up, hush it up, pretend it didn’t happen, and GOD FORBID someone should blow the whistle, then CRUICIFY THEM!
Nothing new there, Wini, why do you think they crucified Jesus? for outing the crooks and the hypocrits in the Temple and in Politics…they cut off John the Baptist’s head. Nothing has changed since then and it was SOP (standard operating procedure) LONG before then.
You keep your dream sweetie, that’s what makes you sweet, but I’ll keep my cynicism, THEY ARE ALL CROOKS! LOL ROTFLMAO We are the yin and the yang, the up and the down, the left and the right, the black and the white!
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Tuesday, 6 October 2009 @ 10:31pm
Tilly says:
I might have lost the battle but I will win the war.
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 2:01am
witsend says:
skylar,
I always have to catch up on the post in the morning as I am rarely on the computer in the evenings anymore. And I read one of your post explaining a bit about your parents. How your mother can be very subtle.
I also read your post above how you record your X’s conversations and tried to expose him to the couple, by playing the taped conversations…..
I think that exposing this disorder to the public is very important. However I think the task is going to be MONUMENTAL.
First off people “see” what they want to see.
Secondly often people can be VERY judgemental. They might have never “walked in THOSE shoes” but they sure have alot of opinions and judgements to cast on whoever or whatever the “topic” might be.
Haven’t we all seen a battered woman on Oprah or Dateline (or some such show) telling their story, and the question ALWAYS, ALWAYS, presented to them is “Why did you stay?” “Why didn’t you leave?”
Or a rape victim. Being drilled. “Why didn’t you fight ?” Or a kidnapped victim, “Why didn’t you run away when you had the opportunity?”
The general public doesn’t seem to GET IT. Asking the SAME STUPID questions…..Duh. Lets ask the same stupid questions and “victimize” the victim AGAIN. Instead of listening CLOSELY to their story and maybe learning something from what they have to say. People right away close their minds and “judge” the situation, even though they themselves have never experienced it.
Understanding the S/P/N personality for most people that never have experienced such a person first hand……Well, that is just mind boggling information.
The word sociopath might be used on programs such as Law and Order to define a fictional character, (murderer usually) however until the “word” can actually be USED outloud to describe the horrific REAL LIFE story on Dateline or Oprah…..The general public isn’t going to make the connection. That the sociopaths in “jail” are one and the same, to the one living next door that beats his wife.
Here you had “proof” of taped conversations of your X, and his friends who have delt with him in real life still, don’t “get it”.
Now try explaining to someone the more “subtle” behavior of your mother serving you breakfast in the morning. And try and get that point accross to someone that hasn’t a clue.
I’m certainly not saying that it isn’t very important to try and educate people and to speak out of our experience. However I think we might not generally get the response we had hoped for.
If society hasn’t learned by now that a kidnapped victim (child) needs some validation after their horrific experience, and NOT the “curious” questions…Why didn’t you run away or tell someone when you had opportunity…..
To me, that question puts the blame back onto the victim in this situation. When will we learn NOT to ask those kinds of questions?
The kind of response you got from your x’s friends I think is rather typical, don’t you? THEY just can NOT wrap their brain around the idea that he is anything more than a selfish, self centered, character. And instead of you being “the good guy” sharing what you know with them, they go back to him and spill the beans.
It is unfortunate that you had to experience this. And the best you can do now is to know that you did the right thing. You gave them warning. What they choose to do with that warning is ignore it. Now it is on them.
I know myself I have TROUBLE some days wrapping my OWN brain around it. It somehow seems surreal. And when you live with it and can’t distance yourself from the “daily” fog that they can create it is almost even harder to articulate it to anyone.
Sometimes when I am trying to explain some of this to a friend, I can almost relate to them not getting it. Its hard to try and understand something as complex as all of this can be. And no matter what words I use they do not seem to be the “magic” words.
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 10:08am
skylar says:
Witsend,
I totally get what you mean. I used to watch the abused people on TV and just thought they needed to “get a spine”, even while I was being abused MYSELF. I just didn’t know what abuse was. We need to get these words defined.
Abuse is: devaluing another person’s potential as a human being. It is slavery and all the things that pertain to slavery.
If I had heard abuse defined that way 25 years ago, I would have noticed that I was abused. I did notice that my exP did not care or expect me to grow as a human being. He was not interested in my reaching my potential, having hobbies or
friends. He was only interested in controlling me. Those other things, were reserved only for him and his desires.
I didn’t know that this was a sign of an abusive person. I thought it was just selfishness, selfcenteredness. But having had a selfish sister and parents, I didn’t think that there was anything harmful TO ME in this relationship. I just thought it wasn’t good to be selfish because then no one will like you.
My XP’s friends have issues of their own, but I can’t put my finger on it. They drink ALOT, and they are obsessed with being naked in their home or when they fly out to a camping site. They and their friends get naked. I don’t want to judge, that is their business, but I don’t get the need for it.
I also think that my XP primed them to envy me. I’m much younger and have always been in very good physical condition. Today, I’m not so well-toned, but I’m very slim, so I still appear in good shape to them. So their ability to “pity” me for being an “abused” wife, I think made them feel better. Last New Years Eve, the xP was partying with them and I went elsewhere. They called me drunk and laughing and asked me if the P beat me. I said “no, the only abuse is emotional and I let him have it too.” I didn’t realize that he HAS NO EMOTIONS, so I was the only one suffering.
They answered, “We KNEW IT! Good for you!”
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 10:43am
OxDrover says:
WITSEND, you have got your WITS about you, Girlie!
GREAT POST!!!!! and so true, so true! Trying to “educate” people that there are “alien space ships” coming and “abducting” people would in some cases be EASIER!
In fact, people would more likely believe me if I told them I had been abducted by aliens than that my egg donor is NOT the “sweet, sainted little old lady” mask she presents to the public. I’ve seen her with the mask OFF though, and I KNOW WHAT LIES BEHIND IT, and it is NOT pretty.
While others may buy the mask, I will never again let others opinions sway my REALITY.
BTW—did you see that bright light over my house last night? Well, it was the saucers coming again……ROTFLMAO
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 11:09am
OxDrover says:
SKYLAR
HERE’S A JOKE FOR YOU: You said your x and his friends are nudists. Once when i was young (very young, like 20) I went to a nudist camp, and all these people from 1 to 75 were walking around naked, and believe me some of them, in fact, most, were NOT attractive….like go to wal mart and imagine all the people you see there NAKED…the guys all had their private parts smeared with zinc oxide and they were stark white! like they had leporasy. LOL
anyway, the joke is—HOW DO YOU STOP SEX IN PEOPLE OVER 50?
turn on the lights! ROTFLMAO
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 11:14am
luv716 says:
Is there a way that you can sue the SP in court although there was no papers sign among you too stating that he owes you money? How about having texts that he sent to stating he will pay you back. I just need my money back!!!!!
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 11:17am
skylar says:
LOL!
That was funny but the funniest part was the private parts smeared in white! I can only imagie how bizarre that looks!
My xP is not a nudist, just his friends are. The only nudity thing he would do is walk around the house with nothing but a teeshirt on, just like toddlers do. Then he’d eat cheerios and bananas all day, just like toddlers do.
I wonder if a propensity toward nudity is part of narcissism. Has anyone else any experience with people who really prefer to walk around naked whenever possible? Are they narcissists? I’m not ashamed of my naked body, I just have no desire to attract attention with it, so I prefer to keep my clothes on for that reason. I think people are going to check you out right? And aren’t there positions you have to avoid, like bending and squatting? Clothes are so functional, I don’t understand people not wanting to wear them.
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 11:30am
Wini says:
Oxy, I know all too well how good folks are crucified. I was the last of the 7 who filed a lawsuit against our managers. Those crooks crossed over federal and state laws, yet the place I worked viewed us as the bad guys. I was the only one still in work. The others were illegally fired or refused entry back to work. They tried to pull this on me, with the sanction of my corrupt union president (who by the way was told to retire and never return … now she’s back to looking at the bottom of what ever bottle she’s drinking that minute of the day).
Long story short … instead of folks doing what’s right for which we have laws on the books, they pull out all the stops to harass you unmercifully until you collapse, commit suicide, or just go away. Unbelievable.
My heart is still broken over how sin blinds folks so completely they never see the good and positive in life. My boss was so corrupt that she only trusted/wanted subordinates that she had something on to dangle over their heads. She couldn’t even fathom that folks pure in heart just work to do a good job, collect their paychecks, mind their own business and go home. Get up again and do the best they can do the following work day. This concept is foreign to her. With her logic, we don’t have the best and brightest at the top of companies. Just a bunch of egos that are paranoid through life assuming others are just as corrupt or more so, than them.
I now understand that if we follow God’s wisdom (TRUTH), our spirits thrive … we live. “They”, non-believers follow their ego (EVIL) and their spirit is dead … devoid of everything … the abyss.
Scriptures are about morals, ethics, positive way of living. People know the basics because of who owned Hollywood back in the early days (Jewish Torah is the Old Testament), books, TV, scripts … who were the writers and what was their influence on society! Non-believers learned the basics of wisdom and think man was born with this knowledge. For those of us who follow God’s blueprint (Bible, Torah, Koran etc.) we learn the details of Wisdom because we are willing to go humble to do so.
Peace.
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Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 12:00pm
witsend says:
God if I could only rely on my “wits” to get me through my own situation. Maybe not even the entire SITUATION but at least through this ONE day, this ONE week, ONE month.
I am begining to feel like an total EMOTIONAL cripple. I can’t even make a friggin phone call.
My son had an early detention and I dropped him off 1/2 hr early yesterday at school for that detention. Instead of showing up to the detention he informed his teacher later in her class that I WASN’T able to get him there EARLY. She gave him after school detention (he didn’t show up for that either)
He told his friend (his mother usually drives both kids to school) on the phone (I overheard) yesterday that he was done with detention and to go ahead and pick him up at regular time.
He told me: That he had turned in the packet (in the morning detention)( this is like a 30 page packet of work, so obviously he couldn’t finish it in 30 minutes). But…….
He informed me that he had just SCRIBBLED on the pages & turned it in with scribbles because he stated he was NOT going back to detention to do any missing work!!!!!
Now today, the asst. principal has sent me a “disciplinary action” warning email stating that he didn’t show up for the detention and that I was notified by the teacher blah, blah, blah.
He has lied to everyone involved. Now I have to call him (asst. principal) and what am I suppose to say?
Yeah, well my son is a pathalogical liar. WELCOME to my world! Yeah, go ahead and expel him from school when he doesn’t show up to the NEXT mandatory detention. (thats how it works)
I guess my son didn’t go with his “plan A”…to milk that detention all year and STILL refuse to do the work. He has come up with what he sees as a better plan. Getting expelled from school. He doesn’t want to go anyways. How convienient is this?
I don’t even want to TALK to these people. Because I don’t even know what to say to them anymore. I just about DREADED getting out of bed this morning and now I know why.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 12:00pm
Wini says:
Hi Witsend. I don’t know if you remember me, but I remember when you first started blogging.
I wanted to tell you about the breathing technique that E. Tolle “A New Earth” writes about in his book. Any time you find yourself overwhelmed with your son’s acting out … find a nice quiet place to sit and listen to your breathing. Try and tune everything out of your mind … your thoughts, the ruckus your son is threatening you with, the phone/TV/outside noise.
Listen to your breath going into your lungs.
Listen to your breath going out of your lungs.
Breath going in.
Breath going out.
Do this for about 10 minutes at first … then as you get used to it … do it for about 15 minutes etc.
This is what Tolle explains as “going into the now” … this minute. Being one with God.
Once you master this (it’s a mini quick version of meditation/yoga) … you will be at peace. Total oneness with yourself … leaving the outside noise of the world behind. There is no pain in the “now”. There is no frustration in the “now”. There is no chaos in the “now”. Just total peace and serenity … you and God.
If you haven’t read this book, you can go onto Oprah.com site. She has Tolle’s site linked from her’s. Tolle explains his 10 chapters of the book in details with audience that skyped in from all over the world.
I hope you can find peace in doing this exercise any time you need it. Your world must be absolute hell living with your son’s ego running amuck every minute of every day.
I pray for you sweetheart. At least my monster left the state and me behind.
Peace to your sweet soul.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 12:18pm
Matt says:
witsend:
Is there any chance, at this point, in getting your son declared incorrigible and letting the system take over? If so, I’d do it. If not, I think you’ve done everything you can do for your son. Now it is time to do what you can do for you.
I agree with OxDrover that your son’s “plan” is to drop out of school the minute he can. Is that this December? In any case, you need to start focusing on your life without your son in it. I would start ascertaining now, exactly when your legal obligation to your son ceases and how fast you can shove him out the door. The reason I suggest doing this is I suspect that yes, your son is going to drop out of school the moment he can. And I suspect that a big part of this “plan” is that he will continue to sponge off of you as long as he can. He’ll continue to earn his few bucks at his job, and dream of hitting it big in skateboarding while expecting you to continue to support him.
I think you need to figure out what your rights are. Then sit your son down and tell him it is clear he has no interest in school and you can’t do anymore for him with respect to that. And since he will not be in school as of X date, you will expect him to clear out on that date. As of that date there will be no more money from you, no car, no transportation, no phone, no comuputer, nothing. He wants to be independent, he can now learn what independence is all about by supporting himself.
The airlines say in the case of an emergency you’ve got to save yourself first. I think you need to do the same here. Your son is determined to destroy his life. Don’t let him take you down with him.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 1:49pm
Layla says:
Great article thanks Donna and a lot of great reading in other peoples’ links, very informative. Tilly, there is nothing wrong with you and you are never alone. It must be so scary to fear for your life and to be so isolated. I’ve been to the police and courts a few times as well and it can be a very dangerous move when dealing with a psychopath. I hope that you are well and getting through this trial so far, xxoo
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 2:09pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Witsend:
Request an in office suspension or detention Whatever he is facing….BUT….IN OFFICE!
The VP is in charge of diciplanary these days….have a nice long chat with him.
YES….lay it out for the VP…..be totally honest……TOTALLY!
Tell him, their suspending him will be a gift to your son……
Unless he is ordered to do it IN OFFICE……Make the School do some work here to.
If your son will not show up for that…..get the truency office involved…..
Since the school has these procedures in place, because of the $$ involved……make em earn it. You don’t have to take all the brunt……YOUR KID WON”T FOLLOW AUTHORITY!
Allow him to feel the consequences of it…..
1. He must go to detention.
2. If not, the next step…..
3. Not follow step 2……go to next step….
UNTIL the truant officers get on board.
WHY is he getting rides to/fro school?
Make him walk 10 miles in chest high snow……
If he doesn’t make it….again….truant officers….
Cut off all angles of manipulation……or rewards….ie rides…
Strip him clean…..
Become the VP’s worst nightmare and make them accountable to do their JOB…
He knows no one will follow through……this is why he’s doing this!
YOU Demand they follow through….become the pain in the ass….
This is what I did….the VP now follows my son around the school…..making sure he is where he is supposed to be….he also has asked other staff members to be accountable to the VP…..in regards to my son….The school took on an active role…
YES, it sucks…..but if you can’t do it…..and this is their territory…..they must do what they get paid to do!
And unfortunately, kids like ours make em earn their dollars!
Good luck…..
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 2:33pm
ErinBrockovich says:
I also set up a meeting with all teachers and Vp…
Laid it out for all of them…..
I requested if my son told them anything they needed to make ‘decisions’ on, to email me for ‘truth’ confirmation.
I cut off his angle to maniplulate.
He now realizes that they will be in touch with me, so whatever he tells them….mom couldn’t, mom overslept, mom was sick… blah, blah, blah…..
they confirm it with me, and are informed of the truth…..and I request he is given NO chances, NO benefit of doubts….whatever….
100% of the time he is lying…..and using me or some other lie as a scapegoat…..
He doesn’t like how people are reacting to him now…..and I tell him when he comes to me to complain…Bummer….you shouldn’t have put so much time into maniplulating and crying wolf…..YOU gave up your benefit of the doubt…welcome to the world!
Oh, it is all hitting him now……
The past few weeks hes’ been on a turn around….towards me….it may be permanent, it may be temporary….but I will use this time to continue to teach my lessons…..(he even joined us for Sushi last night!).
I suspect this t urn around may be another form of maniplutaion…..YET….I am in control of how I respond…..I will respond with love…..but still not rides, money, or whatever it is he usually wants when he is nice…just continue to be the mother that expects this son to earn what he wants out of life! It’s not a punishment…..it’s life!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 2:45pm
skylar says:
Great advice Erin, I hope it’s not too late to turn your son around. Maybe you can’t completely change him, but you can at least teach him to salivate when he hears a bell ring, right?
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 2:55pm
skylar says:
here is the latest from my xP, he sure sounds sad…
I was told not to bother writing this letter by the people who understand substance abuse.
They said my words would be wasted on deaf ears. But I need to write this letter for my self. My natural instinct is to help you, only you’re not there, the Skylar I knew is gone this internal paradox is devastating. The spouse of a substance abuser always suffers more than the alcoholic.
They told me I should focus on a new life as if you walked off into space and floated away never to return.
Well that’s what I’m doing, I am going to make a new life for myself. You probably will read this while you are drunk and most likely delete it before the next day when you’re sober, but like I said this letter is for me to.
In the six months that have gone by there’s been almost no written communication from you. You have had many opportunities to put down your thoughts and send them to me, but you haven’t. You used to write a lot but now
not even ten words, this is an indicator of how far the damage from pills and alcohol has gone. I’m not even sure you realize your horrible situation.
You are damaging your self in the worst conceivable way, the destruction of your mind.
I always worried that you had weaknesses that could lead to addictions, I tried to protect you from that. Whenever I went to a doctor for something I made sure to throw the pain medication away, but you still managed to become addicted.
And now our life together is ruined. How I hate your family they were my only hope of rescuing you. I know that you dirty me to them as part of your addiction, but how quickly they turned on me. I wonder if they will ever know what they
through away probably no more than you. Eventually you’re self-destruction will become obvious to them, there final years will be filled with that sorrow.
How I wish you would have worked with me on the property issue the courts will force you to make a deposition and if you don’t show up they could throw you in jail. My offer to you was more than generous and could have been so easy, but you’re mental condition has clouded you’re mind. There are places that can help you overcome your addiction like the Schick Shadle Center, but only if you realize the seriousness of your addiction. The Skylar I knew may be gone but you can still save what is left of your mind if you get help now.
I have a lot of anger in me still I am trying to overcome it and get on with living.
My health has been seriously injured from all of this and the sooner I move on the better it will be for me. There is one thing positive that has happened as a result of your war on love. Your desertion with no explanation forced me to
retreat into the one thing I have always had, my music. I have put to words and melody my feelings as I climb out of this darkness, your cruelty to my heart forced expression in melodies which when I am composed I am pleased at their sound. I noticed you don’t talk when you’re sober.
Ask yourself what did I do to you ? And look at what you did to me.
You gave no reason.You never express even the the slightest guilt for anything, this is the hallmark of a drunk. Getting together with you for conversation would be meaningless and cruel. You would use the situation to cast spears of cruelty and only more pain would become of it. And then there is the animals the only way I can cope with this is by blanking out of my mind their existence. I can’t wait to close this nightmare I long to start a new family that I can call my own, you have no idea how hard this has been for me, my hatred over the taking of my family can never be healed. These horrible acts are something you’re thoughtless family would do.
It is better for you to be with your own kind, a shallow and thoughtless family.
He wants me to respond via email because he thinks he can use it against me somehow. But he doesn’t want to meet in person, it’s like he’s afraid of me. BTW, I never used to write at all to him because he is practically illiterate. He uses dragon naturally speaking to send email, because he can’t type or spell. Notice all the spelling errors? Well, he doesn’t because he can’t spell.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 3:07pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Skylar,
This email is the whole reason you should not be in contact with him……ever!
Don’t engage.
Ever!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 3:16pm
Matt says:
skylar:
I’m going to speak to you now as a lawyer – do not respond to this in any manner – voicemail, email, smoke signals – nothing.
That said, if you haven’t done so already, you have got to get a grip and contact a lawyer. Every day you let slide by is another day S can manipulate things in his favor. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again — he who wins the race to the courthouse wins. If he files suit first, seeking an interest in your property, you will be stuck proving he doesn’t. Far better for you to take the initiative and see a lawyer and have him write a letter telling S exactly what he can do with his proposals, threats, threatened lawsuits, claims on your property, etc. I suspect a good letter will run him off.
But, if you continue to let this slide, and continue to waste time listening to his drivel, and he files a lawsuit, you are going to be forced to spend a lot more dinero to get rid of him. And I will guaranty that a judge will FORCE you to write him a check to settle this. Not that that is a just result in any way — nor is it justice for that matter. But, once a case is on the docket and before a judge, the judge is under pressure to get it off his docket. And that means he is going to strong arm a settlement. And you do realize that any settlement is NOT going to be in your favor?
So, stop listening to his nonsense — oral or written. Stop transcriing his voicemails. Get in gear and start protecting yourself. You have worked hard to pay for your house and everything else. Why the hell do you want to shell out another cent to this parasite?
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 3:18pm
skylar says:
Matt, thanks for your help.
I did as you advised last week and found a lawyer and scheduled an appt for tomorrow at 3PM. But I have little hope because it is a DV referral and I was supposed to talk to a woman attorney and ended up speaking to her assistant who listened for about 20 minutes, took a message and said that the woman attorney was not going to be available but that a different attorney could see me on Oct. 8th.
I have 3 issues I’m dealing with and wonder if you could advise me on HOW to present the situation so that they will WANT to help me. I get the feeling that everyone I talk to feels overwhelmed and passes the buck. The last attorney I spoke with on the phone was convinced that my exP is a SPY! I told him, no he is a CON MAN! AND A MALIGNANT NARCISSIST.
Here are my 3 issues:
1. he keeps threatening to take me to court – you know all that stuff: he has no work record, he has no credit, he has no tax returns. My tax returns show that I collected rent and all my bills show his gas and avgas purchases and cell phone usage. So I could actually sue him for not paying rent for the last 9 months.
2. The cops.
The camano island cops were involved in trying to manipulate me at his bidding. Last June 3rd he got my neighbor (the crazy husband stealer) to call me in as a missing person twice in one day. I have all the recordings of the cops calling me and also a recording of him telling me how he was going to manipulate the cops by telling the neighbor that I had killed myself and my body was in bags. The cops harrassed me by phone, then called the seattle cops and they came to my parents house. Then they decided it was a funny joke and did nothing to the P. I GAVE ALL THESE RECORDING TO THE CAMANO ISLAND SHERRIFF AND CALLED AND EMAILED HIM AND HIS DEPUTY FOR FOLLOW UP IN JULY, BUT THEY REFUSE TO TALK TO ME. I want to sue them, for not protecting me.
3.
My P decided to up the gas-lighting while simultaneously removing me from our business as owner last January. He placed a GPS tracking device on his truck and told me he had found it. He said he suspected homeland security is following him because he flies a helicopter without a license. I told him to remove the device and disconnect it because it was probably a joke being played by my BIL, the cop (who is an S and I believe also a Trojan Horse). Lots of whispering and paranoid behavior followed for 2 months. In March, he brought home a warrant and a business card from a Homeland security agent. The warrant was dated Feb 3 and indicated that the tracking device was to be placed on his helicopter from Feb 3rd to March 15. The card had all the phone numbers scratched off except the cell phone number and the words “call me” were scrawled on it.
Looking at the warrant, the numbers on it begin with GJ indicating Grand Jury so that the record is sealed and no info can be gathered about it. It is a real warrant signed by a real judge, but obviously doctored with the P’s helicopter information and name. I told the P that since we found (and I took pictures of) the tracking device on January 26th, and it was placed on the truck rather than the helicopter, that the warrant is illegal. At this point I still thought my evil BIL was behind it all.
The P went through all kinds of drama and then announced that the agent had threatened him if he didn’t give it back. So he supposedly gave it back after they surrounded him with drawn weapons.
I know that the P likes to hang around cops and gets great pleasure in manipulating them into doing evil deeds by invoking their misogynist mentality. So, likely/possibly the HLS agent is involved, but I can’t see the judge being party to all this. I tried emailing the judge, but a US marshall emailed me back with a phone number to call. At that point I called it and left a message with my number. It has been almost 5 months and he did not reply. I have copies and pics of the device as well as the warrant. BTW, I traced the HLS agent’s cell phone number to a “Dan” no last name. Dan Gleckman is the name of the agent and there is a real HLS agent Dan Gleckman living in Bellingham.
So… how do I present this to a lawyer to get a positive response instead of another brush off?
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 3:39pm
witsend says:
Matt,
I did file paperwork for incorrigible last year shortly before the end of the school year. It never got into the prosecuting attorneys hand.
Unfortunately my county has implimented a new “program” (since Jan 2008) and the DIRECTOR of that program gets all the incorrigible petitions in his hands first. He then makes appointments with the familys and comes to your house for an assesment. The problem lies in the fact that this man makes his living with this program. SO he has a conflict of interest I would think making any kind of a FAIR assesment, other than each family would benifit from his program, rather than go in front of a judge. Each family that enters into this program he gets almost three thousand dollars!
So yeah, you can guess that we were “assessed” into the program.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 3:58pm
Matt says:
skylar:
I’m glad you called the lawyer. Taking that first step will start making you feel in control of your life and situation. Congratulatiions.
You need to prioritize what it is you are trying to accomplish.
IMHO, the MAIN issue here is protecting your property. If you haven’t, you need to immediately make copies of all your financial statements proving he has no interest in the property, incuding your tax returns, checks, etc. Then pull this all together in an indexed file so your attorney can see wht it is you are talking about.
A second, related issue here is his taking your name off the business. How in the name of hell did he do that? Do you have equity in the business? If so, you have to protect that equity. If no, my concern is you could still be liable for business debts, etc. Also, if you are no longer deemed an owner of the business, but you are still engaged in it, this opens all kinds of issues about authority to act for the business.
Also, I would suggest in advance of your meeting that you write down, what it is you want to talk about — just the facts, ma’am, just the facts. Keep the emotion out of it otherwise you look crazy.
Next issue is the lack of responsiveness of the cops. Suing at this stage of the game is tough, because he hasn’t attacked you (yet). That said, they need to be put on notice. I would have your attorney get involved in this. Once they are on notice and something happens, then they are dead men. Also, if your local cops are not being responsive, I would go right to the governor’s office, the State AG’s office and anybody else you can think of. You pay taxes. They are under an obligation to address your concerns.
Third, his crazy-making behavior. Put aside all the insanity of “Homeland Security”. I have worked with those folks on criminal matters, and trust me when I say that they have far bigger fish to fry than an unlicensed S behind the controls of a helicopter. If he was engaged in activities that did catch their attention, trust me when I say he would not be running around flashing a doctored up grand jury subpoena. He would not only have lawyers so far up his ass they would be brushing his teeth from behind them, he would also be surrounded by his own lawyers. Now that I think about it, THOSE lawyers would be jacking you around to settle up with him, which is why I don’t think he has lawyers.
Since the judge and US marshall etc has been unresponsive, I would write a COHERENT – just the facts letter — to your US congressman’s office and request their help, telling them that your inquiries have not been responded to and what you are looking for.
My question to you – why haven’t you turned S into the FAA for flying without a license? From where I am standing, this gives you real leverage over him. I’d turn the FAA loose on him — that may send him running for the hills and out of your hair.
I still think you need to change your phone numbers, email addresses and for that matter your friends and associates. Until you turn off all the noise, every word you read, every word he speaks that you listen to, every lie repeated by a so-called friend and associate just keeps you in his hold. Until you can turn it off, you are never going to heal. His goal is to maintain control over you. He sees it slipping. That’s why his activity is going off the charts. By even giving him access to you via his emails, calls, etc, you are helping him to meet his goals — which is to keep you completely off-balance, second-guessing yourself, and driving yourself crazy and acting crazy because of his craziness. If I was your lawyer I would tell you to cut it out — for your sake and the sake of your case.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 4:09pm
Matt says:
witsend:
Clearly you have complied with the terms of “the program.” You have gone for the effective parenting classes. You have run yourself in circles trying to get him to school, to study, etc. Nothing is working. I’d tell the director that there is nothing more that you can do and you need to get your son declared incorrigible or he is going to end up in the criminal justice system. If he needs proof that nothng is working, this I’d demand he set up a meeting with you, the school counselor, teachers, principals, etc. Time for him to admit his “program” has failed here and to do what he is supposed to do.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 4:14pm
skylar says:
thank Matt,
I don’t actually contact him, I just save all the vmails and emails (I slipped up once and emailed him when I was really upset,but only said, “call me” which he did but then I didn’t answer LOL! hahahaha)
I will get my paperwork financial docs but not in time for the appt because they are on camano island and there isn’t time before the appt.
Years ago, I just filed the rent he paid as my sole income.
But for the last 4 years, I formed a corporation soley in my name but the P did all the talking to clients and collecting the checks. $ went into the corp acct and I paid the bills. He didn’t get any money I just took his rent out of the corp acct.
This was so he could continue to live underground the way he wanted.
The corp only does business in June and July during cherry harvesting season. So before June rolled around he did the homeland security ruse to persuade me that HE should form his own corp and put all the contracts in his name and get all the checks. Then I’d be at his mercy, hook line and sinker. That’s when I left him, I don’t know how he did business because the main client won’t take my calls, (they are friends). Not too worried about that issue.
Yes that’s what I want, my attorney to get them to explain WHY they have not responded to my concerns for my safety. So that they are on record with a response.
How do I get a lawyer to want to do this? I have the recordings but I think lawyers get perplexed by all the drama.
The P has all his log books doctored by his P-instructor/friend. Previously he had another guy who was a good,christian family man doctoring it, but I think he must’ve finally said no more and then he died in a helicopter accident. Everyone who pisses him off or threatens him seems to die in an accident… The logs are doctored to appear that he is ALWAYS a student pilot. So he can fly alone but not with passengers. But he shouldn’t be flying commercially. Which is what we did in my business, unfortunately. From what I understand the FAA doesn’t really give a rat’s ass if people fly without a license, they don’t have the manpower to go tracking them down and spying on them.
Matt, you are so gracious with your time and knowledge, I will try to follow all of your advice, but I want to do it one step at a time. I still need to get various items back from him including the cell phone he uses to call me! I also think that he has a porn video of me that he made secretly when I was 25. If so, it would have evidence that my BIL, the cop, is a trojan P. I know it’s in his helicopter hangar. His computer is also in my name and I have a receipt for it. The arlington police would be the ones to help me with that, but they are his friends too. Lots to do, one step at a time.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:01pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Matt:
GREAT TO SEE YOU BACK!
Cut the crap and geterdone!
Great advice for both ladies.
Thanks for being here darling……your input and from a professional perspective really helps ….
A. either point us in the right direction.
B. Calm us down so we can be productive rather than chasing tails.
Thanks for the reminder to TAKE THE EMOTION OUT OF OUR BATTLE!!!!
THanks so much Matt!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:07pm
witsend says:
Matt,
Yes, interestingly enough today I found a blurb about this program when I was googling the county that I live in trying to find information of other agencys that might get involved.
In the article it did have some percentages of how succesful they deemed this program to be because they saw a decline in people RE APPLYING for incorrigible petitions.
BUT the last time I saw this director (the end of the sessions) he made sure to tell me NOT to re apply for incorrigible with the prosecuting attorneys office. SAID that they wouldn’t help me!
I wonder if that is why they saw the decline in re application because he tells everyone the same thing?
His program likely is being monitored by the “system” because its a new program and I couldn’t afford to pay (plus many of the others there couldn’t pay) the three thousand dollars so guess who foots the bill? The county.
Wow….Since I read that article I feel like I have been duped by this guy.
I hope it isn’t to late. My son will be 17 in December and once he is 17 you can’t file incorrigible, although I am not sure why as my state says I am legally responsible until 18 years of age? In any event I am going to try and reapply. And see what happens.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:11pm
Matt says:
witsend:
I’d reapply with the DA’s office. To bolster your case I would bring in an indexed binder with (a) a log of what you have done to show you have complied with the programs’ requirements, (b) letters, receipts, etc from people you have reached out to trying to get your son to comply. and (c) letters from the psychiatrists, etc that your son hasn’t complied. I would also make certain that the DA’s office is aware that time is of the essence.
If you don’t think that the DA’s office is going to be responsive, I would kick it up in volume. I would request a meeting with your local State legislator’s office and bring in all this documentary evidence and ask them to intervene with the DA’s Office. I would make it very clear that once your son turns 17 in December all bets are off.
I am also sure that this program receives both Federal and STate funds. I would contact both your State and Federal legislators and ask them about this situation. Also, if this program is a NFP (not-for-profit) your State AG’s office may have oversight of it, or can tell you which state agency does have overisight of it. Again, I would go to them with your experience — because I agree with you that this joker’s self-serving statistics are exactly that — self-serving.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:45pm
skylar says:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33.....alth_care/
Looks like some health insurers try to deny victims of DV based on their medical history.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:49pm
Matt says:
skylar:
Forget getting the cellphone and computer back. At a minimum, while I know it galls you that he has cost you yet more money, the interactions aren’t doing you any good. That said, I’d make sure that you aren’t named as the responsible party on his cell-phone or internet accounts.
The tape is more problematical. I completely understand your concern. That said, you are only dealing with suspicions now. If he even owned up to making the tape, you have no guarantees that he is ever going to give you every copy. This is one of those situations that I would let sleeping dogs lie. If he ever does do anything with it, then you can go after him.
As for getting the attorney to write the letter — I’d give her copies of any tapes where he threatens you and/or transcripts of those calls or emails, including dates, time etc. Don’t drown her with all the nonsense messages. Just give her the ones where you actually felt he was threatening you.
If the attorney won’t write the letter, YOU write one. On this site, once before, several of us worked with Stargazer to write a letter to her congressman. It had exhibits etc. And it was successful — the congressman’s office got the Army to get serious about dealing with her ex-S.
For what it’s worth — everybody on this site understands all to well the drama these subhumans inflict on us. What we’e all learned is that you’ve got to pick your battles carefully and know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em. Right now everything involving him is at the same decibel level. What you need to do is focus on the things you can affect regarding him. And protecting your finances and your property from him is number one on the list.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 5:55pm
EMJ170ORD says:
Skylar,
You mention Camano Island – I assume that is Washington State. I could give you the name of the wonderful, great lawfirm I used in Seattle. They have done amazing things for me against my S, so that is not new to them. It has been pricey, but got the job done.
Also, you need to contact the FAA. I did, since my S too is a pilot. He was using an old address, but they have to have a current one on file. Whether because of my letter or not, it did get changed. I also wrote the FAA about my situation with him, wondering if it would be a concern for them that this type of person, one without a conscience, should be flying people around ( he flys corp. out of Bellingham). I have been told by other pilots, that when the FAA gets a complaint, they are required to follow up on it, whether they do anything or not time would tell. If you need the address in Oklahoma City, let me know. You can also check out the FAA web site, your looking for contact with the person in charge or airman certificate holder.
Good Luck!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 6:07pm
skylar says:
Matt, mostly I want the cell and the computer for the possible evidence it might contain, but I’m not going to go after it straight, I’m going to slither very slowly toward it and then strike. It could take years.
EMJ,
yes, I’d be interested in the law firm name.
Again, I’m being very careful to keep him off balance, and not show my cards. One thing that is keeping him off balance is that I’m not appearing to be doing anything. That’s why I haven’t contacted the FAA or done much of anything. That said, I appreciate Matt’s reminder that if I don’t strike first, in the court system it makes me look bad. That’s why I’m not trying to strike at him, I want to go after the cops who have been helping him.
Am I snake like? I hope so.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 6:28pm
witsend says:
Erin,
Bless your little heart.
The school system hasn’t been very helpful. I had a “round table meeting” with the school both his freshman year and his sophmore year. His teachers, the school counselor and the principal were all there. Not even the VP but the real deal, the principal herself.
The problem is that the school has pretty much done what they are willing to do.
Some teachers show up themselves and put in the time in the AM for the required “detentions” for missing work, and some of them do not. Those that DO (he only has one this year) are required to send notice to the office when student doesn’t show up. After 2 missed teacher detentions, (only 20 minutes) he will have to serve a detention for an hour with the VP. If he fails to show for that they will suspend him from school. And I don’t have an option of a in school suspension.
At this point he is getting teachers that he already had in the past and so they know how he operates as far as his sleeping in class or just not picking up the pencil and filling in the classwork.
Naturally they have had it with his non compliance to the rules and classroom.
There is ONE person at the school the at risk councelor (shes newer) that had been somewhat helpful. She saw my son at the end of last year and he had been “working her” since she came to the school. About how much he had to get out of this house and yadda yadda how bad he had it……
But then she arranged for him to join a program and caught him in a major lie and he had a huge melt down and was SCREAMING at her in her office. In other words he lost it. Big time. I was on speaker phone so I heard it!
She knows that “dark side” of him cause she saw it. She knows, (more than just the melt down) I can tell by how she treats me this year. She saw something upsetting to her.
When I call her this year she tells me he needs to see a doctor. She actually said that to me today. She knows he was in therapy last year AND she also used to work at that same facility BEFORE she got this job at the school!
So she even knows the therapist he saw.
The benifits (?) (NOT)….Of living in a small town.
The only reason my son gets a ride to school is so that he shows up and maybe that is enabeling but I don’t think it would be healthy right now him being here 24/7 either. As it is he CAN quit school before he is of legal AGE to kick him out.
He can quit in 2 months without my permission as he will be 17. He has to have 5 or 6 unexcused absences before a truant officer gets involved. I actually have an email into the truant officer, and waiting for a reply….But I am just asking information as he doesn’t have unexcused absences yet.
My son doesn’t care about the consequences. When he gets them he is generally asking for them and acts as if that is what he wanted all along…..Such as if he gets suspended.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 7:27pm
witsend says:
Thanks Matt! I will look into all of that. It is something that I would have never thought of.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 7:33pm
EMJ170ORD says:
Skylar,
I have e-mailed Donna the name, address and phone of the attorney and law firm. Please tell him I referred you. Finding this law firm was like finding a needle in a haystack, since I’m from Chicago. They did come on recommandation from an attorney in Blaine, who had heard this attorney speak at a seminar. All I can say is “wow”. He “gets it”. And he also likes to get involved, like when he went with the Whatcom County sheriff to seize any property available. He likes that stuff. Good Luck!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 7:38pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
While Matt has a point, in dealing with a REGULAR teenager who does give a flip and does not truly HATE YOU, these things might work, but keep in mind that he will not be incarcerated forever and if you pith him off, he will bear a grudge.
You have already said that he looked you square in the eye and said if you told his boss that he was flunking school and he lost his job because of that, he would BURN DOWN THE HOUSE.
The thing is with these kids THEIR PREFRONTAL CORTEX is not fully developed, and their IMPULSE CONTROL is pith poor to start with and if you pith them off, you can pay for it with your LIFE.
As a last ditch effort when my son was 17 and had robbed a business owned by friends of ours and I knew he had the stuff, I called the cops—as a “scare him straight” effort, (I knew as a juvy he would not get any serious time or a record) WELL IT DID NOT WORK and he has hated me with a vengence ever since then! He blames me because he is still in prison for committing murder 3 years later.
I know it is frustrating to let him “get away” with all this, but if someone is DETERMINED to ignore consequences and to retaliate, you are better off not poking the lion with a stick because I can guarentee the law will not keep him in jail forever for flunking school, and that is all he has done so far, and he will bear a grudge for the rest of his life, and with a psychopath, or anyone high in P traits, believe me that is NOT a good thing.
I was reading some research yesterday on heritability of violence and they are saying from 44% to 75 % is heritable. They aren’t sure just what particular chemicals are involved in it (though they have narrowed it down to a few) but hopefully they will find some pharma-help for it, but in the meantime, you can’t force them to take medication either unless you have them penned up.
With him this close to being out on his own and being as definant and oppositional and as enraged as he is, I think doing anything but letting sleeping dogs lie is DANGEROUS. If it were me in your situation, I would pack my kit bag and disappear!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 7:53pm
sstiles54 says:
I think it is so disheartening that so few of us have seen justice served, or been able to stop one of these non humans before they go on to destroy someone else. It’s not for lack of effort on all our parts. Anyone who has been fortunate enough to actually win a case against a spathhole should count their blessings.
The line from the movie “Shawshank Redemption” always comes to my mind when dealing with people who just don’t get it–Andy to warden,”Are you obtuse?”, this is my life we’re talkin’ about here. Probably get 30 days in the hole like Andy, if I said that to a judge.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 8:19pm
skylar says:
thanks EMJ,
Oxy, Witsend,
that is exactly what happened to my XP at age 12. His mom put him in juvy for truancy and he escaped after he literally vowed to “hate you for the rest of my life” and he does, BUT he did not show it for all the years I knew him. He pretended to be the loving son, all the while tormenting every woman he encountered. I believe he even tormented prostitutes while he was with me, just in a different way than he tormented me. The fact is, he already hates you, he will find a reason to focus that hate one way or another. He may even make up a story to believe. My XP told me that his mother had put all his cats in a bag and dumped it in the river. His mother denies it, saying it was her bestfriend’s boyfriend who did that.
The end result of going to juvy for 3 days, for my XP is that he became smarter and never got arrested again, AFAIK. He has no record. You can’t predict the future, but it might be better that he DOES have a juvy record, if in the future, it affects the balance of a court deciding whether he is a sociopath or not.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 7 October 2009 @ 8:55pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
Well as usual you are RIGHT On when it comes to advice for me…
I went to bed very troubled but with the idea that I would be traveling to the court house in the morning. AND I tossed and I turned all night. And had troubled thoughts about this ALL night long. FINALLY it occured to me why I was so troubled.
BECAUSE he is not truant from school and because he hasn’t broken the law, its not like they are going to send him anywhere or put him in a foster living arrangement. God help me, but I think that deep down that is what I really wanted.
Him to be removed from here.
What they are going to do, if they do anything at all is to issue him a juvie probation officer (non criminal) that he has to report to, to make sure he is reporting to school and coming in at curfew or not running the streets, etc……
AND when I gave it further thought…For how long? Will it stop in two months when he is 17? Because they can’t make him go to school once he is 17 any more than I could. Because the law here doesn’t require him to. So at that point it is his choice, probation officer or no probation officer.
So as you SAY, all I am going to manage to do is PISS HIM OFF FURTHER, and I ALREADY have THAT problem.
Once I had the “light bulb” moment I was able to sleep like a baby. (to bad it was close to 4 am and I had to be up by 6)
It is just like that “program” we went through. The program itself, was not a bad program for troubled teens. It also offered some great tools for parents. However its main focus was on EARNING positive consequences and making SMALL smart choices on a daily basis to earn them.
And my son has major entitelment issues. He doesn’t believe that you EARN anything in life except money. And money and power and control are the things that he lives for. And for him they are all one in the same. Money = Power = Control.
Even the concept of earning trust, or good grades, or ANYTHING like that doesn’t seem to register in his brain. He believes he should get passing grades just because he SHOWS UP and the teacher KNOWS he is capable….So why fill in the paper? I mean that is how far OUT of reality his thinking is.
I am just feeling SO helpless over here watching him. Because that is about what I have been reduced to. Watching & waiting. He is doing the absolute minimal and that is what he gets in return from me. It is hard to live like this. I don’t even know if I can explain it.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 8:23am
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar:
“record if he is a socipath or not”—The Trojan Horse Psychoopath WITH a diagnosis of ASPD had sex with 3 children, ages 9, 11 and 14, spent 20 years all together in prison (most of his adult life) and STILL got only 5 years for ATTEMPTED MURDEr, which was pled down to “felon with a fire arm” and 2 years were suspended, and he got parole after only less than a year—so what is a “record” of anything except 1st degree murder going to do for Wit’s son? What exactly do you have to do these days to get a REAL “LIFE” PRISON SENTENCE? (Meaning stay in jail forever?) That guy that bombed the plane in Scotland and killed HUNDREDS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE even HIS “life” sentence was commuted “on compassionate” grounds since he had cancer—and he was returned to his country with a HERO’S WELCOME! (ask me if THAT pithed me off?)
Wit, I KNOW, SOOOOO WELL, that HELPLESS feeling. What is difficult to accept is that they do not realize what they are putting themselves in the way of, but we cannot throw ourselves (as someone else on here once said) IN FRONT OF THE BUS, to try to save them, WHEN THEY ARE DRIVING THE BUS!
The thought of my little darling being in prison was so distressing to me that I kept on and kept on trying to find some way to deflect him from his path—HIS CHOSEN PATH—because I did NOT need a crystal ball to see where he was headed—TOTAL DESTRUCTION. And BOY! did he SHOW ME that i could not control him! Yep, he was right. I COULD NOT CONTROL HIM.
There was NO CARROT that motivated him, and NO STICK that he feared.
I have been watching some training videos on horses lately, about using a “round pen” to work with horses. The point of the videos by an Aussie guy, named Clinton Anderson is to make doing the WRONG thing UNCOMFORTABLE for the horse, and doing the right thing COMFORTABLE.
He is very diplomatic in his language and he has a “stick and string” which is a 4 ft. .wooden handle with a 6 ft leather lash. If the horse refuses to obey, the “string” is FIRMLY smacked across their butt he calls it “spanking” and it is that, but on a horse level.
In order for any large animal lto RESPECT you, and realize that you are BOSS and that they are NOT allowed to turn their HEELS TOWARD YOU (this is a threat in horse language) you have to make it uncomfortable for them to do so=—uncomfortable in this situation is a SMARTLY cracked “string” across their rump that will leave a whelt. It doesn’t take long for the horse to get the idea that if they treaten you, they get smartly smacked.
However, if you have a horse that is viscious, that ATTACKS rather than threatens you, and comes at you attacking, with teeth bared and ears laid back, the “stick” goes across the nose or head to deflect the attacking horse.
While we generally don’t use a “stick and string” (by any name) on our kids, we do try to convince them that doing the RIGHT thing brings rewards, in the case of the horse, the horse gets to stand in the middle of the round pen, rest and get scratched. Doing the wrong thing means the horse has to keep endlessly running around the pen at a smart gallop and/or get a smart crack across the rump.
The horse (as dumb as these beautiful animals are) QUICKLY catch on that doing the RIGHT thing brings rewards and doing the wrong thing has unpleasant and uncomfortable consequences, and unless one is just plain viscious, it QUICKLY (in only a matter of a few minutes) gets the idea. Within about 5-6 hours, total training time over a week, the horse follows the trainer like a pet dog without any “incentive” from the “stick and string” because they figured out what makes life comfortable and good and that the trainer, not they, make the rules.
My P son decided, like a horse or two I have owned, that NO ONE would make the rules, and that if anyone tried to make the rules, they would ATTACK, bare their teeth and try to lharm the person trying for the rules. It didn’t matter if the trainer knocked them to their feet, it only made their anger, wrath and hate worse, and made them more determined to “win” at any cost.
It isn’t worth it to try to “train” a horse (or any other animal) that has repeatedly proven they will NOT give status, and that they will attempt to maintain alpha status no matter what. There is no carrot that they want, and no stick big enough to deter them from what they want—control. I have put down more than one animal for this trait, culled them out of my herd of cattle or horses.
Just as there are psychopaths in the human race that CONTROL is all lthey desire, there are “psychopathic” traits in some “domestic” animals as well. Some “domestic” animals that will NOT allow a human dominance on a consistent basis. Those animals are DANGEROUS, and fortunately, they can be eliminated out of the gene pool. (I do not classify wild animals in this as they should NOT in my opinion be kept as pets and attempted domination when they have genetics that contradicts this)
We are not allowed to “eliminate” humans with the genetics and disposition to “control” at all costs—in fact we elect many of them to high office—but those that have shown that they are capable of overt violence and damage to others should be incarcerated for “natural life” in MY opinion. When you breed one, and I have felt like “Rosemary” of the movie “Rosemary’s Baby” on more than one occasion, about my son since he turned teenager and into a monster who could not be influenced, much less controlled.
I remember well the night I SHOULD HAVE KEPT ON WALKING FOREVER, when my P son was 17 and I had turned him in to the cops. I went down that evening to get him out, and when the officer brought him downstairs, he looked at me and my husband and said “What the F*ck took you so long?”
I looked at the officer and said, “Officer, there is some mistake, this young man looks like my son, but he isn’t my son because my son wouldn’t talk to me that way, take him back upstairs” and then my husband and I left.
Later in the week, when he went to court, shackled with the other thugs, I told the judge I couldn’t control him and I would only accept him if he had an electronic collar on. That took several more days and then they released him.
After a few days, he cut the collar off and jumped bail. He has never lived in my home since then, however, I have emotionally and financially supported him in jail/prison, though I never did hire him an attorney, he always had to make do with public defender (which he resents as well) and he STILL HOLDS A BIG GRUDGE that I was DISLOYAL to him to call the cops when he was 17. I was disloyal to send him back upstairs when he was disrespectful to me. I was disloyal to make him wear an electronic monnistor, I was disloyal to cut him out of my will, I was disloyal to keep on breathing when he wanted me dead.
In fact, when he got out of prison after his first adult crime of home invasion robbery (2 yrs on a 5 sentence) he refused to move back home because he “knew if he got into trouble I would (be disloyal) and CALL THE COPS” That was to PUNISH ME by him not coming home, in his mind.
I thank God he wanted to “punish” me by not coming home, as I feel in my heart that if he had come home, I would now be dead, as after getting out on parole, within a week he was back in criminal activity, and within five months had KILLED A GIRL for “snitching him out” on their mutual crimes.
There is no reward that motivates them. There is no consequence that restrains them. They are an uncontrollable and dangerous animal. If they had four feet instead of two, I know exactly what I would do with them BEFORE they got a chance to hurt me or someone else. Unfortunately, I can’t do that with a two-footed monster except in self defense and imminent danger of my own life.
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 10:22am
witsend says:
skylar,
Yeah, once I continued to think about it, I know it isn’t the answer.
I don’t really believe at this point that I can do ANYTHING for him as far as there being a positive outcome. And I used to believe that I could.
I wasn’t always sure what the correct “answer” was for the problem but I WAS sure that I would be able to find it.
There always seemed to be another fork in the road that I might take. And that fork in the road might just lead to solutions. I guess I feel like I have hit the dead end. And it is a hard to deal with that.
It was better when I had that “hope” alive. Maybe I am in that process of grieving for both of these losses. My son, as well as my ability to keep the hope alive. When I had the hope I felt that somewhat kept me on a “positive” roll. Even though I had bad days and often felt defeated, I could pick myself back up again and head in a different direction. Hopefully a more positive path…….
But the dead end for me is the realization that the only thing that has changed, in the last year and a half is that he has gotten worse.
Because of his hatred for me, and his mind set, I see nothing that comes from me as a “positive” for him anymore. He has that same mind set about his teachers. THEY are all out to get him.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 10:30am
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
You may have lost “hope” for him, but there IS HOPE FOR YOU! This is what you must focus on now, is taking care of YOU. You have spent a lifetime taking care of your children, and now is the time to focus on YOU, making YOUR life better, happier, and more secure in every way.
Once you get to the point that you realize that, it will be “down hill” (easier) from there! Once I gave up the TOXIC HOPE for my son, that there was an answer, and realized that THERE WAS NOTHING, TRULY N*O*T*H*I*N*G I could do, then I realized it was futile to keep beating myself for “failing” to find the “solution”—it is like a hunt for the “holy grail” we finally give up and realize that there IS NO HOLY GRAIL. There is NO “solution” to find.
I used to have a sign in my office that said “I feel so much better SINCE I GAVE UP HOPE” and when you think about it, that is SO TRUE, it is that HOPE, that DENIAL of the truth that keeps us UPSET, and frustrated. When you buy a lotto ticket, you may “hope” to win, but you do NOT “expect” to win (the odds are tooooo long) and when you do NOT win, you do not despair. But if you EXPECT to win, and you don’t then you are disappointed. So it isn’t really so much HOPE as it is EXPECTATIONS that we lose. IF we EXPECT to be able to “cure” them, “fix” them, we are always frustrated, but when we give up the hope, expectations and denial, we see that we must ACCEPT the TRUTH—and the “truth will set you free, but first it will pith you off!”
Right now, you are SEEING the truth, there is NOTHING you can do to effect what you would LIKE to accomplish (saving your son from himself and his bad choices) so ACCEPTING that truth pithes you off, but once you have accepted that, then you will be FREE.
I think about our dear Lily, and how difficult it is for her to give up her EXPECTATIONS and TOXIC HOPE that her children are just like ours, that they do not care for her, don’t even want to hear the news that she is not going to die from cancer, and yet, intellectually she KNOWS this, but is having so much pain, grief and difficulty in accepting this truth.
We all do it in our own ways in our own time, but the TRUTH is that THE QUICKER WE ACCEPT IT, the less painful it is in the end. There IS a pain free life out there, we just have to WALK through the fire of the pain to get there, and there is NO WAY AROUND IT. We can’t go under, over or around, we must go THROUGH that pain. If we don’t, then we forever DWELL in the pain. ((((hugs))))) and my prayers for you Wits!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 10:53am
changedforever says:
I exposed him and I don’t regret a bit what I did. I didn’t identify him but I described what and who he was to his fellows at his church through an e-mail. I exposed to them the evil that he was beneath that mask. Even though I didn’t mension any names I think they got it about whom I was talking about and somethink might have happen, from the reaction I got from him. Now he is hanging out in a completely different group.
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 11:08am
OxDrover says:
Dear Changed,
Sometimes we can effect “outing” them to their potential victims and dupes. I am glad you were successful. I tried with the church with my egg donor, but it didn’t work….her mask is too thick and her dupes too unbelieving even of solid evidence presented to them.
You win a few and lose a few. glad you were successful. TOWANDA!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 11:20am
OxDrover says:
ps..changed,
Interestingly enough, the same minister (the first one, not the second) TOTALLY believed my X-DIL as she sat in jail for trying to kill my son (her husband) along with her BF who was also in jail, when she said “Oh, I am soooo sorry” I did this. LOL
Yet the same man refused to believe me when I told him she was having the affair before it was exposed, and when I told him the BF was a 3-X convicted sex offender with a LONG prison record after being convicterd 3 X of sex with children, ages 9, 11, and 14—-why did he refuse to believe me?
Because the Ps had “denied what I said was true” even though I had documented evidence of it, and witnesses, etc. they refused to even listen to me “spread gossip.” Yep, I was the BAD GUY by “gossiping” LOL ROTFLMAO
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 11:24am
Tilly says:
Matt:
Thankyou Matt! You are AMAZING! Such good advice and all for FREE…I’ve NEVER met a lawyer like you! You restore my faith in humanity. 24 days to one year no contact and counting!! xoxo
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 12:24pm
Stayingsane says:
Blueskies
No, it’s not a cop out, you did what you could…and maybe there is more? I hope not, but every battle is unique and I think we are vigilant for any opportunity to get justice…even if it means diving in again for a missing piece. Trust yourself to know the particular variants in your dance with the devil!
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 12:37pm
PrincessKK says:
I had felt like running but the more I stand up for what is right they are like just let him be about that but I am like a man supposed to take care of their child, why everyone else can get their support or enforced their orders but when it comes to him, don’t touch him that why he think he can do whatever he wants. I feel if you never tried to do anything to see what the ending is than you let them have the control, it is all on us, we have the control. They may try to take you through the ups and downs but we have to love ourselves and not care what they thinks!
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 12:44pm
Stayingsane says:
Donna
My blood runs cold as I watched James Montgomery’s toast to your parents on your wedding day. He was the center of the universe and you were “made for him”….truly nauseating and despicable. I have a small idea of what you must have gone through…I remember my own shock at discovering ‘other women’ etc. it’s a moment where life changes and is never the same again..I wish you every happiness and success in spite of him, because of him and to hell with him.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 3:29pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I think there are always a few defining moments when you are struggling with kids such as these, when you just KNOW in your heart that isn’t just a “troubled teenager” that your raising. When you know it IS malignant and not curable.
I remember that first moment with my son. And I remember how I doubted myself afterwards. How I rationalized with myself. How I couldn’t have POSSIBLY seen what I saw. Initially I couldn’t get past it. It scared the hell out of me. Then days later I wanted to bury it and FORGET it ever happened.
I think first you know intellectually. So you accept it first on an intellectual level and then you hope and pray that emotionally as a mother, you can accept it as well. The heart takes longer.
I am pretty sure that Lily and I are both strugging with that same thing.
I am also struggling with the fact that I am still living with mine and it is a “daily” struggle to know how to interact with him.
I am his mother but as time passes, I believe that I feel less and less like his mother and that really CONFUSES me.
It is hard to know what is “best” to do under such uncomfortable circumstances. It is HARD to be motherly to an abusive person, even when that abusive person IS your son.
As time goes on and he is less recognizeable as the son I once knew, I feel less like the person I ONCE WAS as well.
Does that make any sense?
And all the things I know so well, his anger, his grandious ideas, his entitelment, lack of compassion/empathy, his lies, his arrogance…..I don’t want to be the “one” that fuels them. Or maybe better said as people here use the phrase his N supply……I can’t CHANGE these things about him unfortunately but I certainly don’t want to ADD to the problem.
I would say that is something I struggle with DAILY. What is my “script” now in all of this?
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 3:43pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Sounds like you are right on track to me!!!! I definitely can relate even though my “living with him” was 20+ years ago—and believe me, in some ways, it seems like “yesterday” and in others like it “never happened” or like it was a movie I saw once.
Being a compassionate and caring mother to a normal teenager is a challenge! Being a mother to a psychopathic offsspring feels like “Rosemary.” Little did I know I would relate to that character so many years later.
Mentally and emotionally are two separate ways of relating and I think the mentally must come first, and then guide our emotional part to acceptance. Hang in there, I think you are doing great! Just like Lily, in your own time.
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 5:06pm
Matt says:
witsend:
I remember the other day telling you it was time to focus on you. I think OxDrover is coming from the same place.
It seems that the only thing that hasn’t forced this issue with your son and the truancy officer is that you are the one dragging him to school every day. You said if he has 6 unexcused absences the truancy officer gets involved.
Why not stop dragging him to school? Make it clear to him that if he doesn’t go, the truancy officer comes after him — so, it’s up to him to get his ass into the classroom. The choice is his — go to school on his own or deal with the truancy officer on his own. This take you out of the mix and may possibly escalate this to a level where maybe, at this late date, the authorities may get involved. But, it keeps you out of the mix.
With regard to getting you out of the mix, it seems you are getting conflicting answers on just how long you are stuck having to support him. To find out the answers to your questions (i.e. am I stuck supporting a kid who chooses to drop out of school at 17 until he is 18? can I move to have him declared emancipated? What would it take for him to get himself emancipated?) I would write or email the State Attorney General’s OFfice of your state. His/Her office is responsible for the ultimate interpretation of state law. If you check out the State AG’s website you may very well find the answers to your questions. Also, your State’s department of children’s services may have the answers to this. Also, the County and State bar associations of most counties and states have a night where you can meet with an attorney for free and discuss you issues. See if you can find one of these in you areas and a family law practitioner could probably give you the answers to your questions.
When I said it’s time to shift the focus to you, I really do believe that. I agree with OxDrover that a provoked S/P/N whatever can be dangerous. I still stand by my statement that you’ve done all you can do for your son. At this point in time I think, painful as it is, that you have to start looking into what steps will protect you and free you from your son’s disruptive presence. He has threatened to burn down your house. You can’t live the rest of your life sleeping with one eye open.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 7:23pm
skylar says:
Matt and EMJ,
I saw the lawyer today and he says his practice is family law and this would fall under civil rights or personal injury.
He doesn’t think the P has much chance of proving we were married or living as a married couple. My exP is not family so I will just try EMJ’s lawyer.
This lawyer didn’t really show much interest, though he did know what a sociopath is.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 7:53pm
Fighter says:
Wini -
You spoke of the Masons. It is very VERY common for sociopaths to wrap themselves in a “cloak of respectability” by affiliating with a religious, fraternal or governmental organization.
Donna is right on when she posts about exposure keeping people away from these predators. One of our latest exposures – Glenn Capers – has generated up to 20 separate letters to us from around the world of women already conned by him, women suffering from STDs from him and women who he was working on that now know better.
As far as the “cloak of respectability” – it never ceases to amaze us the lengths these sociopathic types will go to to cover up their ’secret lives.’
Mike Campbell not only used his music career but his position in his church to find victims.
Sammy Benoit (his online pseudonym) and his wife recently got an award from a Jewish Organization for their support. ‘Sammy’s’ political blog maintains its own mailing list so he can have easy access to vulnerable women under another identity.
Doug Beckstead continues to portray himself as a military hero when he simply is a historian with the Air Force. His job gives him plenty of time away from his wife to play and prey.
And Ed Hicks, whose been profiled here on LoveFraud – used to work for the Government and had high security clearance.
Then there are guys like Andrew Tammar who use ‘affinity fraud’ to prey on Christians who believe that as a Christian he would never defraud them.
Never judge a sociopath by his cover. And the only way for many people to know – is by their past victims telling. Telling can be very healing and validating as well.
We encourage those who can to expose them. As Donna saysd, the legal system will not help you here – exposure will as long as you read her parameters for doing so.
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 10:46pm
skylar says:
Fighter,
thanks for reminding us of that red flag. They like to affiliate themselves with police agencies as well. Any kind of authority that you won’t question. My exP make certain to befriend as many cops as he can and the TROJAN P, my BIL, is a cop, now with homeland security.
Furthermore, WE are the other “cloak of respectablility” which they use. We are usually, good, upstanding citizens with good reputations and good credit. All of that will be GONE, when they are through with you. But until then, They will look really good with you on their arm. All the better to con their next mark.
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Thursday, 8 October 2009 @ 11:22pm
stclair651 says:
I understand were you are coming from I felt so strongly that I needed to expose my sociopath I was almost obsessed with it. People would say let it go move on, but I knew I could not do that. I would say it is about accountability, someone can’t walk into your life based on lies turn your world upside down they walk away. It was about accountability, but more importantly it was about closure. I spent 2 years tracking him down it was a daily event for me. I did post him on a few websites, but I wanted to sue him I did not care if I got money I just wanted it to be public record. Finally I found him and served him and planned to sue him in small claims court. After I filed I got letters from court tv shows like Judge Mathis asking if I would be interested in having my case be heard on their show. I thought hmmm I could expose him on national tv. The insentive for him was if I won they paid the judgement for him. He agreed to go, I planned to blind side him and expose him. Long story short I did the show, I was nervous as hell everyone was telling me to relax but I could not this was about closure and accountability. Well I was able to get some of my story out their, and his face on national tv, but he was smooth and charming and accused me of being a crazy, and a stalker. Ultimately I won the suit, he got a few shots in on me but more imortantly I GOT CLOSURE which is priceless so I just follow your heart and do what ever you need to do to close that chapter…Good luck
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:04am
Unbound Angel says:
Thanks for the post…timely for me…I am dealing with N brother in a legal dispute as we speak… just as another posted noted “they are vindictive till the day they die”…agreed..thanks again for all the info
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:49am
Tilly says:
Unbound angel:
My brother is the same. Keep coming back I need you.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 1:38am
blueskies says:
Thanks Staying sane:)x, I question my Ideas about wether I should do more to ‘expose’ the S/P/N’s in my life when I read this post and comments… but I have to do what works for me though in not ‘pursuing’ them… I sure as billy-o talk when asked though! If someone ever asked me a straight question about them I have no qualms in explaining exactly what we are dealing with:)
Skylar yes we too are used as their “cloak of respectablility”, I know about that one too well, I hate that… the narc that gave birth to me, used us to make her look good when we were kids while being utterly abusive behind closed doors and still talks about ‘her girls like/do this and that’ to make new people think she’s a decent mother/person (makes me want to run in with a placard saying ‘what girls? the imaginary phsyco you had taken into care, the bully in denial or the ‘girl’ who wouldnt p**s on you if you were on fire???!’…ahem… calm down blue:))
… and the S/P used me as a ‘trophy’ (now I remember him when we first got together standing us up in front of a mirror and saying, yes, that looks lovely’ … !!) and his children as tools just like you said sky, to con new marks….YUK!
To all reading… if you are ever feeling like you/ their ‘beliefs’/ their ‘charitable actions’ are being ‘paraded’ and its at total odds with ‘indoor behaviour’… BIG RED FLAG!xxx
there endeth my rant of the day:)xxx
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 2:17am
witsend says:
Matt,
I must live in the wrong state. The laws suck here!
I sent an email to the truant officer in my county and recieved a reply. Her reply:
“According to the Compulsory Attendance Laws, a child is required to attend school from the age of 6 to the age of 16. Although you do not approve of your son dropping out of school, legally there is nothing I can do to make him go to school. This is an unfortunate situation and I feel your frustration.”
I evidently interpret this wrong as he is still 16 and yet she says there is nothing she can do if he goes truant because THAT WAS my question. What they would do?
State Legislature for emancipation – Obligations of parents part.
“The parents of a minor emancipated by court order are jointly and severally obligated to support the minor. However, the parents of a minor emancipated by court order are not liable for any debts incurred by the minor during the period of emancipation.”
How would this be interpreted? I understand it as you still are obligated to support them but not pay their debts? Is that correct?
So what would the point be to encourage emancipation?
Thanks Matt.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 7:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
I hear your lfrustration!. Wow, you are still required to SUPPORT an emancipated minor, but you aren’t responsible for any debts he would build up.?????????? I thought emancipation meant you are lresponsible for yourself…emancipating him would give him the BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 8:36am
witsend says:
Oxy,
It is not only frustrating it doesn’t even make sense does it?
It looks to me by what I am reading as I sift through the emancipation “mumbo jumbo” that the laws have been changed over the years. At least in the state that I reside. Because some of the laws state: “new law” requires ect…..
And FROM what I see, I hope my son has not checked into this to much because I don’t see why ANY teenager 16 or older wouldn’t GO FOR IT!
Obviously the minor, when they file has the obligation to show the court why they wish emancipation from their parents to begin with.
And they do have to be gainfully employed. Yet it clearly STATES that parents are still by law obligated to support minor as I cut and pasted ubove to Matt.
“new law also requires the minor to include certain information showing that s/he has demonstrated the ability to manage his or her financial affairs, including proof of employment or other means of support.
minor must also demonstrate the ability to manage his or her personal and social affairs.”
I am very confused?
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 8:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Well, I sincerely DOUBT that your son could “qualify” as capable of “managing his affairs” as he is totally not managing them well, so I can’t see a judge emancipating him.
So, as long as the little darling stays lunder your roof, it looks like you are obligated to support his sorry butt, no matter what he does other wise or not, goes to school or not.
I don’t know if you read that national news story were some state (cant remember which one CRS) put in a law that you could drop off any child at a hospityal and the state would take them. It was meant for INFANTS but people came from OTHER STATES to drop off their TEENAGERS. The law was quickly changed to a child under 3-days old! LOL
I KNOW FOR A FACT, you are NOT the ONLY parent with these problems. When I went to work for the in-patient psych hospital 3 or 4 months after my son was arrested for murder, part of my job was “intake interviews” with the parents of these kids—-MOSTLY PARENTS OF KIDS JUST LIKE YOURS AND MINE—and actually it helped ME more than them, because I realized I was NOT THE ONLY PARENT WITH KIDS LIKE THIS.
I stayed at that facility for a year and a half and it was my THERAPY to be there, interact with and learn about these kids. Also seeing the anguish of lthe parents of these kids was therapy for me, because it put my own anguish into perspective. I saw how DANGEROUS these kids can be to others and to themselves, how cunning they are, and totally without conscience. Almost the entire patient population was made up of these kids, with the RARE kid with some other mental illness that was “treatable.”
The only thing these kids “respected” was superior FORCE, and the mental health “techs” who were for the most part former football players and who would restrain the kids if necessary to keep them from hurting a staff member or other patient. Before I gave notice and left that job, I had a situation in which a patient (age 15 or 16) planned to kill me, and had a weapon. fortunately he was not successful, but it did make me decide that was “God’s way of telling me” that I needed a less dangerous job, so after giving my notice, I went into home care for a couple of years where the patients were more cooperative and less violent.
I am glad, though, that I did take this job because it helped me over a very rough spot in my life. I have said several times that God put me in a position to have a job that either helped support me through a personal problem, or prepare me to deal with a personal problem. Working with head-injured patients for several years prepared me for dealing with my step-son who had a severe brain injury. I don’t know how I would have managed as well as I did if I had not had that previous experience in working with both the patients and their families of brain injured patients.
The wide variety of various jobs I had in the first half of my career, from psych to ICU, home care, etc. alll helped me when I worked the ten years in public clinics as a practitioner doing family medicine. The psych experience also helped me to realize that a good portion of “clinic” medicine is actually related to psych as much as physical medicine. It is a WHOLISTIC thing, and the entire patient, their family, their emotions, strengths and weaknesses all have to be taken into account. This is where, I think, an advance practice hurse has some advantage over physicians, is that we tend to focus more on the WHOLE patient, not just the medical aspects. I think the BEST care is with a caring physican and an advance practice nurse together as a team, with specialists as needed for referrals.
When I first got my registered nurse practitioner license (RNP) we were hardly known and not universally respected by either physicians or the general public, but over the years I have seen advancements in both the quality and quanity of what is now called an Advanced Practice nurse (APN) and the profession is more universally respected by both patients and physicians. an APN is NOT a mini-doctor, but a MAXI NURSE, though some of that overlaps with medical practice.
I had little problem putting the things I learned in my career to good use for patients and their families, and sometimes even for my own welfare, but NOW I am trying to FOCUS on myself as a deserving patient, and putting the things into practice for MYSELF. Like a lot of us, I gave too much to others, and not enough to MYSELF.
One of the good things I think about blogging here on LF is that it makes us THINK about what we are thinking and what we are doing in our lives. sometimes, I think, we don’t THINK about what we are feeling or doing, or what effect it is having on our lives unless we either journal or blog, but with the FEED BACK we get here it helps us focus.
The articles I write here are all ideas that I have gotten HERE and I’ve had to sit down and THINK about my life, my philosophy, and how I am behaving toward myself and others. That in itself REINFORCES positive thoughts and positive behaviors. So, I get as much “good” out of an article writing it as anyone else could from reading it. I think Louise and Kathy and others here who have written articles will back me up on that claim.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 10:12am
witsend says:
Oxy,
AIN’T that the TRUTH. When I read what the minor needed to propose to the courts…That was my first thought.
He would not be able to say that he was managing his affairs.
WELL my son WOULD SAY he was managing, but he couldn’t back that up. I don’t believe the judge would buy into his “lack of reality world” that he resides in.
I guess I am screwed. This gives NEW meaning to the old saying….Can’t live WITH him, Can’t live WITHOUT him!
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 10:35am
skylar says:
http://www.legislature.mi.gov/.....highlight=
http://www.enotes.com/everyday.....ancipation
Witsend, based on the above links, Oxy is right.
Still, this may work out in your favor if you get him in front of a judge (under the pretense of trying to help him get emancipated) and the judge will speak with you about his behavior. Once you tell the judge everything you’ve had to deal with, there will be a court record of it. it may come in handy in the future. For instance, you can tell the judge that he has threatened to burn your house down so you would rather he be emancipated. It will be in the court record, so your son will KNOW that if the house burns down now, he will be accused of arson. That may help protect you.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 11:47am
OxDrover says:
Witsend,
I totally disagree with Skylar on this one, all the “court records” aren’t going to do you a bit of good if he kills you and burns the house down to “conceal” the evidence (he WILL get caught because he is not as smart as he thinks he is) and by taking him before a judge you will have poked a stick at a “sleeping lion”—JUST MY OPINION, BUT HAVING POKED A LION MYSELF I CAN TESTIFY THAT THEY NEVER FORGET, AND WORK HARD FOR REVENGE.
I think the adolescent ones are even more dangerous sometimes than the older ones, as the frontal lobe on the juviniles, even normal ones, has not matured enough for a reasonable IMPULSE CONTROL, and I think that makes them MORE LIKELY to be violent in an impulsive rage of revenge for the “innjuries” you gave them by dragging them in front of a judge.
Actually, I think the way things stand with your kid, SLEEPING in class (which is the ONLY “crime” he is guilty of now) is not going to get you in front of a judge at all. If he even suspects you are thinking about doing such a thing, I think it would “provoke” him into SHOWING YOU WHO IS IN CONTROL—-
Believe me they think they are sooooo SMART that the DUMB COPS have no chance to catch them After all, they watch CSI and know how to not leave evidence. LOL ROTFLMAO Mine left as much evidence as the stupid bank robber who wrote the note on the back of his deposit slip. A cone eyed, retarded cop could have convicted HIM! Yet he still in his prison cell thinks he is THE SMARTEST CROOK IN THE WORLD.
It isn’t about logic, Skylar, and you are dealing with someone who might as well be from MARS.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:05pm
skylar says:
No Oxy, I don’t mean to take him in front of the judge AGAINST HIS WILL. I mean go WITH the kid to HELP him in his emancipation. Tell him, “I want to help you take the next step to your adult freedom, because you aren’t happy living with me and I want you to be happy. So lets get the forms filled out, I will go to the judge WITH you and together we will convince him that this would be best.”
When you get there, continue with your best, sincere face and tell the judge that the child is very unhappy. Describe the things he has done to show this – for example, threatening to burn down the house. Never show anger or fear. Just portray yourself to the judge as having immense pity for the child’s unhappiness. The P’s never “get” it, but the judge will.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:13pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar, I still think that “outing” him with the theats may not be wise even if she did go before a judge, I think telling the judge he has threatened her (which is a crime, BTW) might cause him more rage. No psychopath likes to be outed in their crimes, and will of course DENY having done it, and become more enraged.
Maybe it is my background of my own murderous P-son that “colors” my thinking, but I take threats seriously from psychopathic teenagers, and unless you are in a position that you can be totally protected from them FOREVER after confronting them, which in this case, Witsend won’t be, I think confrontation can lead quickly to RETALIATION.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:26pm
OxDrover says:
ps: When I caught my P-son with a stolen gun when he was 17 (the school cop notified me) he ran away and I immediately reported him as a “run away”—he and his friend that he ran with (a foster kid of mine) stole a motorcycle and damaaged it. the owner of the motorcycle was going to sue ME because in Florida parents are responsible for damages done by their children…however, because I had reported him as a runaway, therefore NOT UNDER MY CONTROL, I did not have to pay for the damages done to his motorcycle, which actually were very minor.
A day and a half later, when the cops caught them, with the motorcycle, I sent the foster kid away, and my son was put on probation and had to go to therapy—which he convinced the therapist I was a “bad parent” and he totally REFUSED to comply with curfew and so on, and though I called his probation officer and the therapist, I got NO COOPERATION.
Eventually, he talked his 19 yr old brother, C, into renting them an apartment and they moved out. Within two weeks, he had robbed our friends’ business (using our cars which he stole and hot wired in the middle of the night) to carry his stolen loot, he already had another stolen motorcycle but couldn’t carry the loot on the motorcycle.
When we went out that morning and found our cars HOT we knew they had been driven, and had no problem “figuring out” WHO had driven them and returned them to us—-LOL–so went to the apartment and found the loot. Then called the cops, which resulted in BOTH my sons being arrested, the innocent with the guilty. However, son C was NOT prosecuted thank God and his arrest was expunged from the records.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:35pm
skylar says:
Oxy,
yes, they are dangerous, but they are also cowards. They rely on their N-supply to be too scared to move. They are bullies. And they are all veneer.
They are like the puffer fish that blows themselves up to 10 times their size to frighten the enemy. Once they realize that everything they say and do can and will be used against them, they will think twice about what the say and do.
I would put surveillance cams with audio, all over the house.
I would “out” him every chance I got.
Remember, the guys who killed their wives went to great lengths to hide the bodies, pull their teeth and cut off fingers. They don’t want to get caught. So my point is, when you keep the window shades wide open, their isn’t much chance to do any dirty work.
But I would always do it in a NICE way. Go totally passive aggressive on him. Always act as if you are doing it to help him acheive his agenda.
My XP rear ended a woman about a year ago. He had no insurance. the car was barely damaged yet somehow it was totalled by the insurance. He said that the insurance company was out to get him and committing fraud, etc…
I now know that he did it on purpose to cost me money. I would have to pay or he would lose his license, he told me.
Long story short, I wanted the car for myself, because it was in prime condition with the exception of the little dent in the rear. But the only way I could get the car was under the guise of wanting to help my xP “get back at” the insurance company. For that we needed to buy the car as evidence. The only way you can get the P’s to do anything is if they think they are pulling a scam on someone. So that’s the attitude I took – and that was before I even knew he was a P. I had noted that he could not be enticed to do anything productive unless there was a scam involved.
Once I got the car at the insurance auction, he told me he was going to put it away for evidence. I told him, “no, I’m driving the car”. he had no choice in the matter, it was my check, my title, my car.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:53pm
skylar says:
I just read your PS.
I can see that you tend to take the bull by the horns. I’m more of a passive aggressive. But I think that we both see the need to keep everything out in the light of day. The more light you throw on them, the more they have to hide. they’re like vampires – working at night and in the dark.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 12:57pm
witsend says:
skylar,
Did you notice that my state had the extra “crap” attatched to the emancipation in that link you gave me?
I don’t know….Call me paranoid. But I do FEAR this kid. Its hard to admit, as a parent, but I do.
What I fear the MOST is his inability to connect his words to his actions. His lies are his truth.
What he says is HIS reality. And in his world what he DOES means absolutely nothing.
My first reaction when he said this to me (setting the house on fire) was to report it at least to the police. Like you say to have it on record.
But my next thought was…..What if they picked him up to question him about this?
Is this in my best interest or not? Of course he would deny it But it would certainly piss him off.
I DO honestly believe that teenagers with these S/P traits can possibly be more dangerous than an adult. And the reaon I believe that is because they don’t have enough ” life experience” behind them. They do not have impulse control. And he does NOT think like a coward because he is still young enough and arrogant enough to believe he can do ANYTHING. Even normal/average teenagers don’t have fear for alot of things. They think they are invincible.
Does that make sense? It does to me although I am also emotionally involved. So that doesn’t help matters any.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 1:23pm
kim frederick says:
And I think I read somewhere that pathological liars can pass polygraphs, I guess because they believe their own lies. Sigh.
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 2:57pm
heartmoonstar says:
Hello LF readers (and attn Erin–in reference to one of your past posts which I cannot locate)
Yesterday I was relieved of jury duty (after 4 court days) on a high profile double homicide with special circumstances case….thank GoD!
After what I have been thru with my XN and his GF Atty who is also an N and his counsel in our 2+years ongoing divorce, I was shaken to the roots to be plopped down into THIS jury pool. It was like after my crawl to get out from one N, I am thrown into bucket with an obvious P, whose presence in the court made it very nerve wracking to be in the same room…..he was constantly scanning the prospective jurors, trying to catch their eye, and smiling a creepy smile that exuded an evil electricity to us jurors. Maybe it affected me more than others because I recognized him for what he is.
(Erin, during the voir dire and after filling out an EXTENSIVE questionnaire, the Judge asked me what “NPD’ stood for….I was shocked! I immediately thought of your post about the foot dragging in the NV courts of continuing education, as offered by the HighConflictInstitue, and how desperately it is needed to expose the courts to those with personality disorders.)
I had to explain to the Court, the prosecuting atty, and the defense atty (who happens to be the accused, he is representing himself after firing his two court appointed atty’s because they wanted him to plead guilty on insanity) what Narcissistic Personality Disorder was……unbelievable!!!!
It was the accused P himself that released me from the jury box as soon as I took a seat. I think the prosecuting atty was sad to see me go……. :-\
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 3:43pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Heart:
HAH……You became the teacher…….see how things work out?
You touched several people, and I bet some of them go home and look into it themsleves…..
I bet the defendant was blown away…and couldn’t get you out of there fast enough!!!
GOOD FOR YOU!
We just never know when we will have an opportunity to raise awareness…..this is empowering….
Heart…..if you would have been chosen to serve, you would have done a great job, but since this wasn’t your ‘time’….you have ‘another’ job to tend to……it’s up to you to decide ‘what’ that may be.
I beleive everything happens for a reason…..
I commend you for getting up when asked and doing what you had to do……just think…..this judge may tell another judge, who speaks to an attorney, who speaks to your judge over dinner and BAM…..the word got out! SOMONEONE will be talking about juror XYZ tonight or next week, or tomorrow….or all three….
You made a difference…
This is HOW we can all make a difference…..
YEAH….heartmoon….your a star!
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 4:03pm
heartmoonstar says:
EB, thanks!
I like your take on it, and hope that is what will happen……
This was of course, in criminal court. The P is arrested, accused and ready to be tried…..
Family court is the lighted stage that the N, P, and S “USE” to shine in the glory of all their fabrications…..I have found this to be so emotionally, mentally, physically and monetarily draining, that there were days when I was almost non-functional…..in numb-land…a deer in the headlights. Stealth and Covert abuse abound…..
In another post (may have been yours) it was proposed to think and act like an S, because, after all, they taught us well! And to use that little bit of “S” that is in us all, but never used….
….so I did. The XN belongs to 3 clubs, and even tho it has been over two years with me out of the residence (I now live 1/2 mile away to keep my son in the same school district), I still get calls from other “members” looking for the X, as I kept the home phone number when I moved.
So I decided to call each club, to make sure my name was not on the billing, and to remove my phone number from the roster. The first club I called still had my ph# on file, so they removed it. The second club was fine, all info was the X’s, the third and most prestigious club told me I was not on the billing, nor was my phone number, and the billing address was for an address that is 150 miles from the X’s, and I recognized it as his GF atty’s address.
I immediately knew why he was being billed at that address: to get the out of area status of a full member, but not the higher billing of a LOCAL full member……he was saving over 60% of the fees by using this far away address for billing purposes!
Hmmmm…..that can’t be right, I said. We have joint custody of our minor son, who goes to school locally, and my X has custody every other week….so I know he is here, he got our home….that is where he lives and where I pick up and drop off my son…hmmm….oh yes!…..I DO recognize that address…it’s his girlfriend’s!…..funny….I have NO IDEA why he would have the billing sent there…very strange….but thank you for confirming my information is no longer on the account…bye!
Of course I felt horrible after I hung up……NOT!
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 5:20pm
skylar says:
Stargazer, are you out there?
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Friday, 9 October 2009 @ 8:25pm
Tilly says:
flyspeck, are you out there?
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Saturday, 10 October 2009 @ 1:31am
Tilly says:
Come back!
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Saturday, 10 October 2009 @ 1:32am
bibleannie says:
TO Erin, OxDRover
I need help! I am scared and can’t shake this erie, sick feeling inside of me.
What I’m saying is I think I need to be scared for my life.
I believe you all understand and recognize how a socio can know the words but not the music. Mine has never ever showed any concern for our future financially, I have always been the one to bring it up.
Last night as we were leaving a grocery store, out of the absolute blue he says to me, so, when we die do you want to be cremated or buried. Right away I said, I want to be buried. Then I asked him what he wanted, he told me cremated absolutely. I grew quiet for a minute cause I knew this moment would be extremely important. He then went on to try to tell me that he really felt we should both be cremated. I took my time and calmly explained that my whole family has always had a burial with a casket. At this point he became agitated with me (this is usually not how he operated, for most all things he just agrees to passify me). Anyway, I noticed that he kept glancing at me sideways to watch my reactions. I tried very hard to conceal my nervousness that I was feeling. Again, I tried to be casual and said, Honey, it’s just uncomfortable to talk about these things and I know we need to but it’s hard anyway. Then he said well a funeral with a casket can cost 10,000. I said so…you have insurance at your job that would be just about enough to cover it. I asked him why all of the sudden he wanted to discuss this with me. He went on to tell me, well you know I have this feeling that mom wont’ be around much longer. His mom and dad are wealthy. Then he reminded me that both his mom and dad want to be cremated. He would let it go, even after I asked him to let it rest so I could think about it and that I needed to see if it would be wrong scriptually. We got home, and immediately he wanted me to look it up online. So I did. I told him that there was not clear answer and that I simply wanted to follow tradition in my family. I think at this point he saw that he wasn’t going to get me to back down and agree with him, he then went on to talk about how he wa going to change his 401 k at work to increase it.
You will probaby think Im nuts Erin and Oxdrover when I tell you that from the start of the whole ocnversation, It was like I could see into his mind and what his motives were. His parents are wealthy, remember he stole his fathers identiy in his mid thirties, the whole sensation that came over me was like I had walked right into his mind and knew what he was wanting. I imagined that my life was in very real danger. That he could be plotting my death (being cremated so there is no autopsy), getting me out of the way as he moves in on his dad knowing his mom’s mind is going fast. His mom when she was well, controlled all of the money and was wise to my S. Remember, she told me that he was dangerously smart and so good with people it was to a flaw.
I believe that since a month ago when I told my S that I would separate from him if he didn’t take action to get his never ending debt accumation taken care of and start being responsible that I would leave.
Now, I think by telling him this was a huge mistake. I think he wants me out of the picture because I call him things all of the time. All of S associates are thugs, either drug dealers, perverts, ex-hitmen and so on. Yes, I am afraid. I have nowhere to go at the present time. No money, no vehicle. I can’t go to my family because when they met him for the first time, he became this wonderful, helpful, caring loving man for all of them. They would think I am the crazy one.
I know now that I can never out wit him, because I have a conscience and he doesn’t. He will stop at nothing if he believes I am a threat to him now.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 9:09am
skylar says:
Bibleann,
you let on that you were on to him. Now he is thinking that you are not as useful anymore. But that doesn’t mean that he is going to kill you, just that he’s thinking about it. In this thinking, he is enjoying bringing up an uncomfortable subject to make you squirm. You must LAUGH AND JOKE when this subject is brought up. Go online and google jokes about burial and cremation. (I don’t know if you can find them) But be ready with a quick wit and a laugh. You must derail his thinking process.
Next thing is you should NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER threaten to abandon a sociopath. Their greatest fear is abandonment. It is the source of all their pathology. Their motto is “do unto others before they do unto you.” So, you triggered the very worst narcissistic injury you can trigger in a narcissist. Now you’ll have to soothe it. You have to act extra sweet and hug and kiss him more and tell him how much you love and NEED him. Try to think of all the things you used to say to him before you realized what he was. Are you any good at acting? I ask this because it won’t work if you aren’t good.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 9:25am
bibleannie says:
thank you, thank you, thank you.
I consider myself after a lot of years of growing up that I couldn’t be as rattled as I was last night. You are right, I did trigger that and yes I think I can act all luvy duvy even though on the inside I will be fighting the urge to puke.
You are right, I will send him a joke about it today.
As soon as I start working again, I have to play the part of a socio myself. I will definitely have a one track mind to save enough to get the heck out of this living nightmare.
Skylar, thank you again, I was immediately relieved of this gripping fear after reading your post.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 9:35am
ErinBrock says:
Bibleannie:
At some point the game ain’t worth playing!
Only YOU can decide when that point has hit…….
Really no sense in sticking around to see if he kills you……to bury you or cremate you huh?
Minimize your losses and get out.
There are shelters, places you can go, it might be a good thing to move in with your son who was coming your way…..a bit further from ‘home’…..I think you should fast forward any plans and move on them. You must listen to your gut!
Bible….there really isn’t an ‘optimal’ time to leave….never is…..
So just make the move.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 9:38am
OxDrover says:
Dear Bibleannie,
Unlike Skylar, I think YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO YOUR GUT! I know that it is difficult to get out when you have no money, but I think you should leave immediately.
When my son and his henchmen started planning on killing me (all the time, trying to be “friendly”) my GUT told me, and it was like GOD WARNING DAVID through Jonathan that Saul was out to get him and kill him. DON’T DISCOUNT YOUR GUT!
I did not want to leave my home (which is on the same farm with my enabling egg donor) but I had NO CHOICE and I fled for my life, and it was a darn good thing I did or I would be dead now, I have NO DOUBT! I also had no support except for 1 friend and one of my sons….who was also in danger.
They sometimes start planning things, and GIVE AWAY THEIR INTENTIONS, the Trojan Horse Psychopath my P-son had infiltrated into the family gave himself away because his car died and he wanted another one IMMEDIATELY so he “borrowed” money from my egg donor, and then BOTH OF THEM lied to me about it….when I found out because she slipped and told me, my hackles came up and I realized some deception. I didn’t take immediate action, but it did give me a head’s up.
For him to make such a big deal about this, SOMETHING is going on. LISTEN TO YOUR GUT….whatever it costs you, even going to a shelter is better than him killing you! DON’T LET HIM “drive you crazy” thouigh….don’t tell anyone except maybe ONE trusted friend, and also write a letter to the cops about “in case of my death”—-but GET OUT OF THERE IS MY ADVICE—get your hands on as much money as you can, take whatever papers you need, and that INCLUDES ALL OF THEM, and GET OUT! If you think you can trust your minister go talk to him, but he may not believe you, mine didn’t….mine believed the Ps and thought I was CRAZY, so try not to appear “hysterical” if you do that will bite you in the butt.
I don’t think you can outwit them, so I think it is dangerous to even try. Trust God, I think this is a warning that your life is in danager. You are in my prayers and thoughts! Love oxy
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 9:43am
skylar says:
I agree that the moment you feel you are out of your league, WALK AWAY.
But for now, Bibleanne isn’t asking about how to leave, she is asking about how to handle the situation she is in now.
Find out how much funerals cost complete with casket and plot. Then tell him that you are really concerned that it will be a burden on him so you are going to start working and saving for that expense right away. Be loving and concerned, tell him how much this weighs on your mind. Tell him you feel such “GUILT” for never having considered this before. He will love the idea of you “digging your own grave”. This will be your cover to squirel away money. You can now start saving right under his nose and he won’t interfere.
That’s what I did with mine. I can’t post what actually happened, but I will tell you that he was trying to gaslight me and told me that homeland security was after him. So I played along with it. I acted scared and bizarre and when ever I needed to do certain things that he didn’t agree with, I convinced him we HAD to do it because of the cops. I told him how scared I was of the cops and that’s why I turned off the phone and didn’t answer calls.
I basically dived into his bullshit and overreacted to it. He was pleased at the response, because he felt he had “gotten” to me. So he couldn’t actually complain too much about my behavior.
This is how you deal with them -play along but change the rules. Don’t do what they expect. let them see a (fake)emotional response and go into action. It will take incredible will power. You will probably not be able to accomplish the whole thing unless you have nerves of steel and can expect the unexpected.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 10:06am
OxDrover says:
Skylar,
Annie said: QUOTE: “He will stop at nothing if he believes I am a threat to him now.”
Whatever her point in asking about how to “handle it”—my opinion still stands, I think this is a CLUE to his intentions of killing her. If I am wrong, and he has no intention of killing her, then she is still safe. If I am RIGHT and he does have an intention of killing her, then…she made a BIG mistake by trying to out wit him.
If you weigh the RISKS of being WRONG which is the most RISK, to stay around or to leave? Not all RISKS are EQUAL, and I realize that I am on the “better safe than sorry” side of it all but this kind of “clue” or “slip of the lip” if you will, is the very frequent way that they let their intentions slip out.
My X BF-P kept taking about wanting to “burn down” his “cousin’s” house, but what he DID was to burn down the home of his X-GF before me because she had dumped him. We were never able to prove it in court, but there IS NO DOUBT HE DID IT.
I take any kind of “threat” seriously, and lots of people have not taken “warnings” as threats, and died because of it. Most murders in this country of women are done by their SOs, or X-SOs. So if I “over react” I would rather be wroong on that end than to NOT “react enough” and have a death occur. It is obvious TO ME that this man is planning her DEATH, and that being the case, to me, it could be tomorrow or next year, but why wait around to find out?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 10:34am
skylar says:
my last post was lost in cyberspace…
Annie, can you tell us more about how you two have been relating since you first came on LF. Are you being more defiant? are you getting along?
How do you know he doesn’t have a keylogger on you?
Didn’t you post yesterday that you “outed” him using a keylogger at work?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 10:51am
Rosa says:
Bibleannie:
Your husband’s estimate about the cost of a funeral with casket and vault is right on the money.
$10,000 is approximately what funerals cost these days.
The cost can either decrease or increase by the quality of the casket & vault that is chosen. Caskets can range in price from about $800 – $6000. So, there is a big variation.
But, $10,000 is the average cost.
It seems like he has been doing his homework on this subject, ESPECIALLY since he wants to be cremated.
Cremations are less expensive than funerals, because there is no casket & vault.
If you should pass away, your husband will determine whether you are buried or cremated, UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING IN WRITING (LIKE A WILL) STATING YOUR WISHES, OR IF ONE OF YOUR BLOOD RELATIVES COMES FORWARD AND SAYS THEY ARE OPPOSED TO YOU BEING CREMATED.
If there is no will, I am not even sure if your blood relatives can stop it if your husband decides to have you cremated.
The laws are different in every state.
I strongly suggest you consult with a funeral director ON YOUR OWN (that means without husband) and discuss these issues.
One more thing, Bibleannie. There can still be an autopsy, even though the body is being cremated.
It’s done all of the time.
If the cause of death is unknown, or the circumstances of death are suspicious, or if the family is demanding one, there will be an autopsy.
Speaking from my own experience, once a psychopath knows that you are onto them, it is NEVER forgotten.
The fact that your husband is talking to you about funerals and knows the cost of a traditional burial for you is chilling.
A HUGE red flag!!
Please do NOT minimize this or try to overlook it.
I would back away from this man and your current situation ASAP.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 11:27am
bibleannie says:
My S does not realize that I was the one who uncovered the truth about him at the motorcyle place he managed. At one point it he did accuse me of it but I denied it. It’s like this sick cat and mouse game that’s played constantly. Back then, when he worked there, he thought he covered his deviant ways so well and for some reason, I could always smell a rat with him, but could never, ever prove it. So I became my own PI without him knowing. When I showed him the proof of his sick activities logged on under his email and desktop, he didn’t realize that by his lies about why he fired that man of 20 years that his boasting about how this guy threatened his life just came back around to bite him. He couldn’t believe that anyone there would sabatage him, afterall, he once told my daughter when she was staying with us and being rebellious, that she didn’t fool him one bit cause he was the master manipulator. He was intoxicated when he had this dicussion with her, and wonder if he even remembers telling me this.
So, if has installed a keylogger on this laptop, he’s very good cause I constantly run spyware checks on it. If he does know and sees what I write about, and that is enough for him to have me disposed of, then he is beyond sick, he is the devil himself cause he has nothing on me, I clean the house everyday, don’t hardly go out but to grocery shop, he monitors where Im at all the time, I cook for him, clean for him, pack up the house we are currently renting and the other 7 in the past two years.
I’m rambling I know, but even now, my mind simply can’t wrap around how evil evil is.
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 11:53am
skylar says:
it’s true, annie, your mind has NOT wrapped around how evil he is because you are talking about what would be ENOUGH for him to dispose of you. Can we say…um lets see… burnt toast? That would be ENOUGH. He is a psychopath. YES HE IS THE DEVIL HIMSELF. Can you deal with that and stay calm?
What we need to ask is what would be ENOUGH for him NOT to dispose of you. What would make it ENOUGH in his best interests not to dispose of you. Unless you always have it in your mind in that way, you CANNOT stay there. I thought you understood, but now, I don’t think that you do. Your assignment was to stay completely undercover, like a gray rock while getting enough money to escape. But now you have to leave or to somehow convince him that there will be money in it for him if you continue to live a bit longer.
Nothing you have done in the past matters. My own xP told me that 25 years of love and devotion and servitude meant nothing to him because I didn’t pick up the phone on one particular day, which showed that I was evil and must be punished. That’s the day I left.
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 12:31pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Bunny boiler… LOLOL.. cough, yeah I know that was a while ago. Better late than never though, right?
There are narcissistic types who aren’t truly dangerous except maybe to your sanity or reputation. For those I advocate mild revenge, such as letting it all hang out when that lawyer, ex-boss, friend, relative or social worker calls wondering whatever happened to your personal prodigal. Don’t hold back to make yourself look smarter. Let everyone know who cares to listen. And don’t worry if they don’t believe you. They will in time, they will in time.
I also advise any of you still dealing with hurt and anger that is truly rocking your world, to go VERY easy on yourself for a while. MAKE TIME for your emotions. Don’t be too quick to go out in the world, but make a little time to just lie down and feel bad for a while when it gets too much, and don’t be hard on yourself if a few tears squeeze out, or even a torrent.
And don’t kick yourself if you miss the N/S. They were a huge part of your life and now there is an empty hole. Grief is appropriate.
There are some sociopaths who are so unstable and dangerous they can’t be exposed. These kind of people you have escaped from as a lamb from the jaws of the wolf. They are the ones who ten years later you are still afraid they will find out where you live. As long as we live in such an open society, there will be people loose and free who should be locked up for the safety of society.
All you can do in this case is keep your eyes peeled. But still I say, if you do have to go into court with them… don’t cover anything up. Don’t forgive any arrears, don’t let any threat go unreported. These people are masters at making us look like idiots to the authorities. You may not be able to expose them to those authorities, but do not under any circumstances show fear or allow them to bully you into silence. This can only help them.
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 12:52pm
kat_o_nine_tales says:
Skylar… so totally and completely true. It’s that way they have of excusing their complete indifference with some stupid little flaw of yours. For my last one, it was that I remained friends with my ex-husband, with whom I am raising a difficult child. Not buddy-buddy friends, you understand, just civilized and polite to each other for the sake of the kid. In my boyfriend’s mind this was totally inexcusable and a betrayal of his devotion…?
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 12:54pm
henry says:
kat_o_nine_tales – I just want to say Hello – It has been a very long time !
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Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 1:07pm
skylar says:
Hi Kat,
I haven’t had time to say hi yet, today seems more hectic than usual.
It’s nice to meet you.
thanks for posting that interesting letter from your ex. His life sounds like the hell he deserves. Oh well.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 13 October 2009 @ 7:02pm
candyharlau says:
the X-p is now working a second job – a home nurse. he’s administering medication to people that are home-bound.
I’m afraid he will steal their money and belongings (especially their jewelry). he had no problem doing any of that with me. He has no morals.
Should i expose him? Particularly because he’s been stealing drugs from where he currently works (he’s a male nurse).
total scum
ps… how coincidental that he can now work a second job to pay his bills and have what he wants. he couldn’t do that when i was with him. oh yeah, i was the one that was going to buy OUR house on the water, buy OUR yacht, etc, etc. Maybe he has to show his new F buddy that he has money.
sorry to b so crast…what is going to stop this monster?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 16 October 2009 @ 7:16pm
geminigirl says:
Candy, maybe you could send an anonymous email {not from your home, it may get back to him, and hed be furious, and maybe suspect you,and take it out on you. You could send it,or a letter,{anonymous also] to the agency he is working for saying you have every reason to believe he cannot be trusted around other peoples money or possessions.They can then run a check on him to see if he has any previous convictions,-he may well have.Do you have any proof that hehas stolen drugs from the hospital he works in?Ive been a nurse, and I know that all drugs taken out of the medications cupboard have to be signed for and counted.
Unless he is bribing someone to sign for them, what proof do you have? Gem.XX
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Saturday, 17 October 2009 @ 12:18am
candyharlau says:
gem
every day he removes meds from aspirin to valtrex to …
it just so happens that i have saved several of the drug packs he brought home. (this has been done, so in case he decides to mess with me)
i can comfortably say that he has over twenty+ packs, with almost 30 days worth of meds in each, stockpiled in his apt. he hands them out like candy to friends and neighbors. he’s the man…he has to show his worth!
as for his superiors…he’s got them conned. they think he is the best pill deliverer (yes, that’s all he does all night…besides f one of the nurses). he is conning them, they’re turning a blind eye.. or maybe he’s sleeping with them. he’s a con man, in a con man’s world. no one looks in his large briefcase when he goes thru lots and lots of security. he is the only LPN that gives out meds to the staff when they have an ache and pain, too. i know he takes dishes & towels. What else could he bring in and out. hmmm… interesting thought?~! (ps this jail has been and continues to be under fire w/the media)
what a piece of work.
your thoughts?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 17 October 2009 @ 6:30am
geminigirl says:
I would post all the empty packs that you have saved, and send them[either give them your real name or tell them you fear retribution from him so could they keep your name a secret.} Send them, plus any other evidence you have of his stealing , to the top Health authority in your state, ask them to do a full audit on this Hospital,{or is it a jail?} Either way, if they do a full audit, the governor will be in big trouble if things dont match up.Say what youve said here, that he hands these meds out like candy to his friends. I repeat, if you have reason to fear hed “get back to you and make trouble,ask the authorities for protection, and or anonymity.All the best, gem.XXAlso, ask them to check security as youve reason to believe it is lax.
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Saturday, 17 October 2009 @ 7:16pm
sotired says:
Hello, I’m new at lovefraud but not new with N’s. I’m not sure where to post so I’m going to throw this out here. For seven years I have been involved with an N. Now, if I can get through to a point I’m going to hit send because I keep losing what I type. I have asked him to pay me back money and it’s my word against his with the exception that I have our conversation about the matter recorded. Legal where I live. It’s a pathetic recording. I asked him to sign something that he owed me money. That’s when it got ugly, and he doesn’t know I have this recording. He made 2 payments to me, small, and has missed the last 2. I told him I would take him to civil court if he didn’t pay and he said on the tape he would deny it and so on. Very ugly. I called in Sept to collect and he said he didn’t have it. I called last night and he called back within a few minutes but I missed the call. He left a message to call him and I did and still nothing. I’ve had no contact with him with the exception of a few times trying to get the money back. He’s a gambler and drinker and an N. Of course he needed money. Now, I just want him out of my life, forget the money though I need it. I struggle with letting him off the hook, not taking him to court. I know he won’t pay me and an attorney told me it’s a rough go too. If I don’t call him on the 15th when he is suppose to pay me, I feel like I’ve given in. Sorry for the ramble. I’m so tired and still angry.
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Sunday, 18 October 2009 @ 6:59pm
shabbychic says:
sotired, I can so relate to your post, I was caught up in hurricane (seems like a good analogy to me) with a N/S last year, I “loaned” him a lot of money, never will be paid back, boy… did I learn a lesson. Here is a link to an article on LF related to walking away, but still feeling a victory.
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....y-upright/
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Sunday, 18 October 2009 @ 7:16pm
shabbychic says:
sotired, are you still there? I hope you will stay with us and keep posting, there is a lot of healing information at this site, it has helped me more than I could ever say… helps you to start learning about yourself, not just them. You haven’t given in, you believed in someone who was lying, a predator.
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Sunday, 18 October 2009 @ 7:40pm
sotired says:
shabbychic, still here reading. I will be here a lot and yes I did believe him. He knows I don’t anymore but… no surprise, he doesn’t care or worse he believes he is winning.Thanks for writing back.
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Sunday, 18 October 2009 @ 7:47pm
Fleeced Ewe says:
I think, to cover our back, making statements like, “he/she has tendencies of and S, or, and N…” is safest. However, people can run with that, and accuse us of calling them the name anyway.
They know the laws better than we do, they know exactly what they can and can’t get away with and they know how we will react and exactly what they can do to punish us for the reaction.
This is why they are evil.
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Tuesday, 20 October 2009 @ 11:02am
littlewhitehorse says:
I have been reading lovefraud for two years now and this is the first time I have been able to write. My ability to understand had been damaged.
The conclusion I have come to is that all the education in the world cannot protect you from a narcissist or a sociopath if you are unprepared. They are so good.
I sit here feeling so old and worn. Broken psychologically, spiritually and emotionally and after two years I still can’t recover.
We spent 15 miserable years together and I left him because I took a breakdown from his abuse. We never went out as he said he had a phobia about knives in that 15 years and as all abusers do he isolated me. Slowly but surely I gave up everything I loved to keep the peace. I suffered the silent treatment, gaslighting –the works. I had nowhere to turn to. I came from a poverty stricken area and my whole family were abusive alcoholics. He on the other hand came from a moderately wealthy family and could always return. Oh. And the change was abrupt. Romantic courting—whirlwind romance–quick marriage. Big white wedding of my dreams, paid for by us, as I wanted. He changed on our wedding night.
I left my home to be repossessed and declared myself bankrupt and got a new home for me and my kids.
He helped me move our few pitiful possessions to my new home and he fitted out my home with wooden flooring that I had bought. He seemed so eager to please me and I took this as a good sign. So I asked him if he wanted to get back together. He was always a hard worker and still is. Handed his wages over every week. I never checked his account, as I believe in trust and privacy.
He still gives me money faithfully every week for maintenance for my child and I.
I went into counselling and this is where I discovered that women tend to blame themselves when a marriage goes wrong. I also learned that I was grieving. I also learned self-respect and equality. Good solid healthy boundaries and about healthy relating. My counsellor told me about the healing power of love and I developed my faith around this. He told me that it was just like peeling an onion. Meaning the layers that make a man cold and emotionally unavailable. Masculinity. For underneath is just a hurting little boy. He went into counselling too. And seemed to come out better for it. We both went to marriage guidance as well and I was so happy. He seemed to be too. He begged me to give him a chance to change and I said yes. I was patient with this process as I knew it couldn’t happen overnight.
You see– as I was just about to leave him for good 9 years ago, he all of a sudden confessed that he had been sexually abused by a neighbour and a family member. I did wonder why now—why tell me now as I am broken and leaving you. He never spoke again to me about this and I assumed that he had sorted this in counselling. I did ask him if he wanted to pursue this further with his abusers but he said no. It was in the past and that he had resolved it. I believed this. Because he had raped me during our marriage and I had resolved this. I put it down to ignorance. I also during my breakdown had a sudden premonition that my husband was a sociopath and that my daughter who was 11 was in danger from him. Our sex life was zero and what we had made me feel like a hole as I explained to my counsellor. After I said it –it felt so dramatic and my counsellor reflected this. I should have listened to myself.
I went to college and at the end of the year I won a place at university. I learned about patriarchy etc as it was the social sciences I studied. Gender and womens rights.
After my abusive history I grew strong although vulnerable and sensitive. I could spot an abuser a mile away.
From then on for seven years we led a happy life. It was good. He couldn’t do enough for me and was always saying that he loved me. We spent many happy family times together. Now and again his controlling side would emerge—but I was more than able for it. And I encouraged his relationships with his children. These were non existant before. I told him that he was going to die a sad lonely old man if he didn’t.
It was so real. We always went out on a Friday night to our local pub (on the advice of our counsellor)and as we walked to it he used to cuddle my arm into his as if he cherished me. He would romantically light his cigarette and give it to me before lighting his own.
We both had computers in our office. Whenever I got up to go and check on the kids or whatever—he would say—‘you left me’. This would make me smile at this wee insecurity. I would reassure him that I was just going to the loo or what ever.
My love for him ran deep and I was so proud of the man he had become. I thought we had both overcome our abusive history and had built something really good , solid and deep together.
I had healed completely and could not even remember my abuser. The man I lived with now was my best friend, mate and lover.
But in saying that—a small part of me still didn’t trust completely. I vowed never to get financially entangled with anyone again and to keep the house in my name.
This saved my life—perhaps not my sanity. I don’t know.
Today I was abused again by my psychiatrist. You see my story is bizarre. In fact downright unbelievable.
Timeline with her.
Landed on her doorstep two years ago.
Numbed hard and toughened
Couldn’t even speak
Had to write it down
Provided printed documentation about narcissists to support my state
Was pitifully thin
All abuse and shocks done in a period of nine months
Totally consumed by fear and adrenalin
At first diagnosed with disordered thought from a controlling relationship
Asked of it felt like a supernatural experience
I said extremely abnormal yes
Like a cult
After reading my story
Told it was a psychotic episode brought on by his narcissism
Was very confused but agreed to medication
Told I would get deep psychological work
Asked to see him
I agreed because I was concerned about something he said that stunk of incest and paedophile.
He said I said it and she believed him after ten-minute visit
After I got him out of my house
He parked his car out side my home for one and a half years from seven in the morning until five at night.
She thought this was normal
One and a half years later
Still obsessing
No psychologist.
Took off medication
Still numb
Asked to see a counsellor
Promised one
Two years later
Still numb
Feel overwhelmed by memories.
Asked her for help with memories and still concerned with my numbness
Can’t get out of my head the abuse and the fact that he could be a paedophile and having no one to discuss my story in the two years
Told me blank
No psychologist
I am just taking another psychotic episode
I pointed out that it was her that said I would get a psychologist
She denied it
I pointed out that everyone else could see that the car situation was abnormal except for her
I pointed out that how can she possible diagnose me only seeing me for an hour once every three months
I asked her why she was writing me of without a fair hearing
Knows absolutely nothing about me
She asked me only if I would take the medication and guided me pityingly out the door
I felt so defeated
So lovefraud
Can I tell you my story?
.
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Tuesday, 20 October 2009 @ 8:08pm
Stargazer says:
littlewhitehorse,
Welcome to the site. I’m glad you decided to post after lurking for so long. You will find here that people believe you and have had similar experiences. Most people–including psychotherapists–don’t get it about sociopaths. You have to be so careful who you confide in. It does become a double whammy when your being traumatized in a relationship, and then told you are crazy by your “support system”. Sociopaths can fool even the best therapists.
From what I gather, it sounds like you fear this man might be molesting your daughter?
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Tuesday, 20 October 2009 @ 9:23pm
shabbychic says:
littlewhitehorse, I’m so glad you posted, sounds like a horrible nightmare, yes you can tell us your story!!! Keep posting! In addition to seeing a psychiatrist can you go to a therapist? A therapist who has experience dealing with the devastation left by a sociopath? Someone who you can see once a week. In my experience psychiatrists only prescribe medication, they never did much else for me.
I think that you being able to write part of your story shows that deep down inside you have a spark of recovery going on!!! You are a survivor and I hope that you will share more of yourself here, you already know most of us!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 @ 11:43pm
henry says:
littlewhitehorse _ we are listening.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 12:25am
skylar says:
littlewhitehorse,
we will listen, but I also suggest reading books on psychopaths. My favorite is “why is it always about you?” by sandy hotchkiss.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 2:17am
littlewhitehorse says:
Hi. Thanks for replying. No–I don’t think he has molested our two daughters as I was always present at home and it doesn’t show in their behaviour–although you never know it could still come out.
My oldest daughter Debbie is now 20–but my youngest Amber is 12 and she stays with him one night at the weekend. I lied to him and told him social services and child protection are monitoring her–best I could do to protect her. Stuck in a trap of not being believed and not being accused of parential alienation syndrome. So far so good–as she is bright and happy when she comes back.
He did everything to me behind their backs and I put him out suddenly with no explanation. It felt like a life or death situation. The only guidelines I had at the time was –no contact– and say nothing bad about him to your kids. As said–I was in a bad state–but kids only know I hate him and don’t know why. They don’t want to know. They love their dad and he has them fooled that he is a great family man–although he doesn’t have much time for my two oldest since he left. Only my youngest–which you will see in due course–worries me.
It must be hard for my kids as they thought that they had two of the most loving parents ever. They were all too young the first round of abuse–and know nothing about it.
Didn’t mean to lurk for so long–but the two years have went in so fast–and as said–sometimes I feel as if I have been brain damaged by the experience. It has taken this long to admit that I am no further along in recovery. Keeping it locked in has not helped either–so I am hoping that by telling I can eventually heal. Keeping someone’s confidence is one thing. Keeping poisonenous secrets another. I think it eats you up eventually.
But I had to protect my children. I don’t want them damaged by finding out unecessarily that their dad may have peodophile tendencies.
I am still not sure what happened although I see parts of my story in others–hence visit to my psychiatrist for someone to help me clarify the memories.
For the first year I was obsessed with gathering evidence and the shocks that I found kept me numb–possibly PTSD. I had to leave reading lovefraud for a time as I kept getting triggered.
I also asked my psychiatrist yesterday if her diagnosis of a psychosis could be wrong and that if she could actually push past this and look at it from an unusual domestic violence position that I could be suffering from PTSD. I got knocked down immediately. How dare I question her position.
Being still numb doesn’t help understanding and I believe you have to emotionally process each memoriy to recover. But my psychiatrist poo poohed this idea when I ran it past her. She ignored the emotional numbness. Yet I can’t help thinking that supressed emotions can’t be healthy.
I asked for a therapist–but as said –she promised then renaged. Somewhere along the line–I’m not sure why as I only saw her for an hour once every three months. Not enough for time to talk. She changed it to a psychosis. Which she maintains I have now recurring because I asked for someone to talk to and about my emotional numbness and memories.
I haven’t cried–not once throughout the experience and also not since putting him out. I wish I could. I have researched all possible avenues for his healing from psychological to biblical and have finally accepted that I can’t and no one else can do this.
Funny how you think of them first.
Anyway–thanks for listening. I will post soon about my experience. Exhausted. Keeping up a front does this to you.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 3:11am
skylar says:
Littlewhitehorse, you said, “The conclusion I have come to is that all the education in the world cannot protect you from a narcissist or a sociopath if you are unprepared. They are so good.”
I’m not sure if you realize how much you said in that sentence and how many questions you answered in that one sentence.
You were very educated and knew about women’s issues, but he still got past your intellectual defences. Now you understand that the only way to REALLY get an education in psychopathology is to LIVE THROUGH IT. Nothing can describe the confusion and doubt. It’s like trying to describe an association with a cult.
So, when people ask, “why did this happen to me?” Your sentence answers, “because this was something that you needed to learn and you needed to learn it well. It’s a lesson that will serve you in the future. It will be your armor.”
But I’m concerned that you are not providing your children with that same armor. And I know that they will need it because the children of abusers are more likely to meet and marry abusers. These children don’t have normal boundaries because the abusive behavior seems normal. I’m not talking about pedophelia, I’m talking about the most subtle and sinister emotional abuse that takes the form of seeding shame and envy. We are all vulnerable to this if we aren’t vigilent. You don’t want to speak badly about their father, and I understand that, but you should make sure that they read books that will help them understand the personality disorder of narcissism.
Your psychiatrist sounds like a waste of time. Read books like, “The sociopath next door.” and “Why is it always about you?” You will get it and you won’t need medications.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 11:51am
littlewhitehorse says:
Skylar. When I took the children nine years ago I modelled self respect–taught bounderies and told them to trust their intuition at all times. My youngest– I told her that even dads may not be nice–without going into too much detail. I have hammered simple golden rules into them to protect themselves. My 20 year old is more than able. But then so was I. My good work got done then.
But in saying that I have tried to educate them in womens rights etc, but they are not receptive. Boring. The only thing I got through was about welcome and unwelcome touching and the power of the word NO. Also honouring yourself. Self respect. I am a good leader when not weakened like this. But as no one is around to abuse me they don’t see this.
Not that it helped me. I was raped emotionally, mentally and spiritually.
He did everything without their knowledge and all they have is the image of the good guy who couldn’t do enough for me. He tosses the two older ones a crumb now and again and I feel sad to see them so grateful. But I don’t know what to say about this without coming across as bitter. They are stuck in the middle.
I have decided to say nothing and let him dig his own grave. I always validate my children when they tell of something that he has done that they don’t like. They are very open with me and the fact that I tell them that I am not responsible for his behaviour puts the ball squarely at his feet. At one point he came running to me to try and fix a situation between him and our son as our son did not want to see him anymore. I told him to fix it himself.
I listened to the girls one night and I heard my oldest say that she didn’t want to phone her dad and asked my youngest to do so as he will do it for her cos he likes her better. I just said –’Is that your dad playing favourites again’. They know I don’t.
When he first left he character assasinated me to them. My only weapon was a dignified ‘ I do not discuss your dad with you–therefore I don’t know why he is doing this’. It stopped immediatley as the kids had a go at him.
I leave good books lying around. EG ‘The verbally abusive relationship’–’Why does he do that’–’and ‘Women who love psychopaths’. I will get the two above in due course. But even if they don’t read them–they know their mother is. Subtle and hopefully effective. I have also told them that I see a psychiatrist for trauma. Let them add things up themselves. kids are not stupid.
When I put him out I did not sit around and mope. The house was run down as he would not do anything with it. I put central heating in a new kitchen and decorated from top to toe. I also got us brand new beds on a limited budget. I was left with nothing after 22 years of marriage as he has no assets.
To confront a child that their father is narcisstic and is not capable of loving them to me would do untold damage. I believe in leaving hints and letting them figure it out by themselves who did what to whom and why.
Although devastated–I still model good healthy relating and loving behaviour. Which is hard as I have no feelings LOL
Anyway Skylar–Genuine heartfelt thanks for your post as it made me realise that I did alright.
He got through my defences simply because I loved and trusted him. The attack was so swift and relentless I did not have time to think. He crashed every one of my bounderies and I am still reeling trying to put them back together. I was idealised and devalued so swiftly that I didn’t even know what it meant until after the fact. I went numb instantly.That’s their strategy–I think.
I still have a good deal of identily loss and have not achieved peace of mind. But I think I look and act stable to the kids.
Again thanks for the validation about my psychiatrist. I think that when someone makes up there mind that you are sick then that is all they hear. Even my challenges about her service were seen as symtoms of a psychosis. Totally no win situation.
Thank God for you all.
Peace and Love
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 1:52pm
kim frederick says:
Skylar, I am learning to knit. Pinky-Doodle has a blue and orange Gator sweater in his future, with many mistakes, but hey, he’s a cat and he just loves the attention. I still have a couple of weeks to get it done for the big rivalry: FLORIDA VS. GEORGIA. A really big thing around here!
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 8:50pm
skylar says:
Oh that is soooo cute that you’re making a sweater for Pinky. I dressed up Dillon for Halloween a couple years ago. He went as Puss-n-Boots. I entered him in a contest at the petco and he won best cat costume. (because he was the only cat, no one else would be crazy enough to take their cat into a room full of dogs). I have some video, maybe I’ll post it on Youtube one of these days.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 9:32pm
kim frederick says:
Sky, Yes. When i went to Super Wal-Mart to get yarn and knitting needles, the cashier told me there is a group of ladies who knit together every Weds night, and she said thet were planning a get-together next week, when they would bring their dogs, all dressed -up for halloween. I don’t think Pinky would fit in………………………………….He’s kind of picky about the company he keeps…I think it has something to do with the food chain, but Pinky could explain it better. Love.
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Wednesday, 21 October 2009 @ 9:45pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Donna, et al:
I just spoke with the lawyer of one of the spath’s dupes. On her advice I will call the Attorney General later this week to add my name and info to the list of people who have complained about the spath. (three on record to date).
Looks like they are about a month away from moving forward on the last remaining charge – fraud.
I am seeking advice here. The lawyer made it very clear that the Judge REALLY doesn’t ‘get it’ and consequently other charges have been thrown out.
Are there specific studies, papers, etc. we at lovefraud could support the case with in terms of explaining the nature, motivation and long term prognosis of someone with the spath’s history/ profile?
one step
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 4:31pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
the lawyer herself, although very sympathetic to the situation doesn’t seem to know much about s/p, etc. I’d like to give HER some info.
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 8:28pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
well, i learned a new skill today; how to take screen shots.
so i spent some time and archived EVERYTHING the spath is doing online that I know about. I haven’t been looking at this stuff – and as long as i just concentrated on the archiving I was fine.
I am a bit triggered. but it’s done now. So it can go to the lawyer and AG.
On one of her own blogs – in a post that I hadn’t seen before – she wrote this long response to the woman who is suing her for fraud.
and at the end, SHE ACTUALLY WROTE: LOVE YA TOO. MEAN IT TOO. RAISE YOU A MISS YA.
OMFG!!!!!!!
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And now we return to our regular programming. I am going out of tox house and away from computer and into the world.
one step
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Tuesday, 15 December 2009 @ 9:19pm
eileen says:
As I read your posts…whatever illusions I still had about my ex disintegrated. All sociopaths are the same it seems, they even use the same words – “bunny boiler”! – I am mortified to realise that until now I still had illusions about him, and that it hurts to let them go. For instance, until I read Littlewhite horse’s story, I thought the efforts he had made to improve his behaviour were only to help his short-term plans; but never thought that he was probably planning to get some other form of control over me (he wanted a baby) to start abusing me on a much higher level. I should have known, one of his other gfs (4 at the same time as me) told me about the way he abused her emotionally and physically. Why did I want to think he would have treated me slightly differently?? It’s like unconsciously I still want to hold on to the idea that somehow he did like me a little bit, or a little bit more than the others – after all that time is he still playing with my brain if I catch myself having those delusional thoughts after everything I found out about him? I never wanted to see him again, anyway, but I liked the idea that he had maybe been sincere, say, 5% of the time…could it be that I still can’t help seeing the way he treated me as a reflection of what i deserve? Or maybe I want to believe there is some humanity in him so that he suffers??! Has anyone had similar feelings, can someone help me understand what”s happening?
Thanks!
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 9:18pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi Eileen,
I have a similar feeling- i havne’t figured it out yet, but it is early days for me.
Although I accepted what she was the moment I knew who she was and that she had done this to other people, I haven’t completely deconstructed who I THOUGHT SHE WAS, OR MY LOVE FOR THAT PERSON.
This seems to come up every few days. I spent so much time talking about how amazing she was, especially given the adversity she faced, and spent so much time admiring and laughing with her that I am shocked still that that person DIDN’T EXIST. the one l loved didn’t exist.
and almost all the nastiness i experienced came from the sock puppet alter egos i had contact with via email. so, getting that this was ALL one person is still terrifically uneasy.
I found out yesterday that, if I want, I may end up giving evidence against her. And today I find my mind reeling – there is a mix of i don’t want to be anywhere near this pyscho, and I wonder how will she react to me? See, I am still thinking she might care for me. just a tiny bit.
this is the woman i wrote about in my posts above………….the whack job. I want to know if the whack job might care for me justa’ tiny bit. AND WTF WOULD I DO WITH THAT?????!!!!!!
It is complex. I just dunno yet. but i will. and i suspect you will too. I guess it comes down to – what does it matter if they truck that hit us ‘liked’ us a tiny bit….
…and GFC, aren’t we worth more than that???
one step
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Wednesday, 16 December 2009 @ 10:45pm
eileen says:
Thanks, One Step. Same feelings here.
I’m trying to think that if they never liked us nor respected us, nor saw us as human beings, the fact that we found them out and exposed them probably got us promoted to the rank of “problematic object not doing what it’s told anymore” – as good as it can get!
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Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 3:30pm
one_step_at_a_time says:
eillen –
for the 2nd time today i felt some warmth in my heart centre (a place that mostly feel numb or completely tense lately), in response to “problematic object not doing what it’s told anymore” .
feels self defensive. and humorous. I need me some humorous.
I haven’t outed her yet. but I am gone. and if she ever tries to come back (which will be hard cause my contact info is diff and we don’t live in the same place) she’ll find out how gone. hangup gone.
one step
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Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 5:11pm
Stayingsane says:
eileen
Exactly what you say. As soon as you begin to demonstrate to the P you see through the scam, you will be labelled “not working” “broken” “crazy” and he will be on the sniff for another victim that will be taken in by him to keep up his self inflated version of himself. It’s harsh so take it gently on yourself. Please try and look after you and all the love you feel for him find a way of re-directing to yourself.
Ah so he has 4 other girlfriends? since when is 5 per cent sincere…. enough for a real human being? you deserve so much more. He won’t suffer, but he won’t ever be happy….cut loose, love yourself, be 100 per cent sincere to yourself.
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Thursday, 17 December 2009 @ 6:26pm
eileen says:
Hi Staying sane, thanks! Thankfully he can’t make anyone around me believe that I’m crazy – I’ve pre-empted that, and his arrogance, agressivity and parasitic lifestyle had been noticed by others before. He didn’t have the time to isolate me and destroy my self-confidence completely, which I know now was his plan. I do get some satisfaction from the idea that I’ve escaped his control though, and that he can’t stand it – hence the stalking etc. I was nothing to him, finding him out turned me into something: a problem. Which is, I believe, the highest status and the closest thing to a recognition of my existence that I can get from the sociopath! I agree 5% sincere is not enough for qualifying as a human. Even if I knew half of what I know about him I wouldn’t grant him that. But like one step writes, rationalising is one thing, but because of emotions there are times when it’s hard to dissociate the sociopath from the pseudo-person you thought you knew. I believe it happens less and less with time, and knowing about sociopaths helps: I’ve realised that if I take out all the sociopathic aspects of his personality as described on this site…there’s nothing left!
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Friday, 18 December 2009 @ 3:26pm
T says:
My friend and I met this guy for drinks last night at the Red Lion. He tried to stick us with a $300.00 bar tab.
We got curious and googled his name.
Boy are we surprised!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Sunday, 24 January 2010 @ 10:49pm