After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 14 – Discovering What We Are Capable Of
PDF The Buddhists say that we fall in love with our teachers. I know that in my relationship with the man I now belief is a sociopath, I realized early that I was in a sort of classroom.
He clearly saw the world differently than I did, and operated on principles that were so foreign to me that I couldn’t begin to connect the dots. I was truly in love with this man, had a clear vision of the benefits a good relationship would bring to both of us, and wanted to make it work. So I tried to understand. I kept trying through all the emotional pain that started very early in the relationship. I worked at getting him to appreciate and trust me more than he did. I also experimented with mimicking his behaviors, even though they were outside my comfort zone.
In all of this, I learned one basic lesson. No matter what I did, I lost. I didn’t get what I wanted from him. In negotiations or trades, I came out on the short end of the stick. I invested more than he did. Any temporary gain I won cost me more down the road. I lost money. Career equity. Personal connections. Self-respect. My expectations of the relationship kept diminishing through the five years I knew him, until my efforts were mainly centered on avoiding pain.
Through all this I was still profoundly attached to him. Part of me knew this was crazy, but I couldn’t break away. He was like a powerful magnet. Oddly, there was also a little voice in my mind that popped up occasionally, telling me, “Pay attention. This is important.” I had no idea what it meant, but in a way, it was the thing that kept me sane. It was telling me that this was happening for a reason.
This article is about one of the most important aspects of trauma processing. It is about what we learn as we realize that there is some other reality on the other side of healing. We play with this idea all the way through our healing. Certainly, the angry phase is about learning to be different than we were, working on not being a victim anymore. But there is more than that. There is also learning the lessons that sociopaths can teach us about winning.
The difference between sociopaths and us
In Strategy of the Dolphin, the book I mentioned in the first of these articles, the authors divided the world into two types of people, sharks and carps. Sharks are addicted to winning. Carps are addicted to being loved. These rough generalizations offer us a wealth of understanding about the differences between empaths (feeling people) and people who cannot bond.
There is another, related concept in this book about the nature of human interactions. That is, in all interactions, we act on what is most important to us – either the relationship or the outcome. If we are more concerned about the relationship, we are willing to compromise or give in to keep things friendly between us. If we are more concerned about the outcome, we will do whatever we have to do to get what we want. Outcome-oriented interactions may include a lot of apparent relationship-building but it is all part of the plan to get the desired outcome.
In the last year of our relationship, after being flattered, charmed and seduced for a few weeks by my ex, I agreed to a new arrangement that equated to paying for him living with me. Once he had the agreement, he reverted to his old cruel, distant and domineering self. (And I was stuck with supporting him, while he treated me like this.) When I asked him why he was so nice when he was leading up to a deal, he looked at me as though I were stupid and said, “We were in a negotiation. How did you think I’d behave?”
What I wanted to say to him was, “I expect you to not use my feelings against me.” But it was pointless. He regarded my feelings toward him as an annoyance. To him, everything was deals. He viewed people in terms of relative power. As long as I had the power in the relationship – such as when he was trying to get me to agree to something – he was going to suck up. When I didn’t have anything further that he wanted, my feelings or desires were unimportant. If I wanted something from him, he had the power and it was my job to offer him enough payment to make it worth his while.
I can write this very clearly now, but at the time, it was simply incomprehensible. My life was about love and all its permutations. I wanted to be liked and accepted. I was highly aware of other people’s insecurities and needs. Most of my relationships had some element of helping and I even made my living helping other people achieve their dreams. I tended to over-perform, because I was worried about meeting other people’s expectations. I worked too hard, over-committed, and took responsibility for everything – other people’s feelings, when things didn’t work out perfectly, and for my inability to take care of myself very well.
Naturally, my clients and lovers enjoyed the intense effort and creativity I put into their satisfaction. And naturally, I attracted a certain type of person, people who needed more than they could get from providers with healthier boundaries. I was perfect for my sociopath. He needed someone who would care about him enough to help him achieve his personal goals. That was me. And he was clever enough to give me exactly the minimum attention necessary to keep me thinking I was in a romantic relationship.
Learning another strategy
The authors of Strategy of the Dolphin talk about a third type, the dolphin, which has two characteristics that are different from the carp and the shark. The dolphin experiments with new strategies, when its standard behaviors aren’t working in a situation. Second, the dolphin will generally act like a peaceable, relationship-oriented carp unless circumstances require acting like a shark. When it is necessary to place outcome over relationship, the dolphin has no problem doing that.
In our healing from relationships with sociopaths, we practice outcome-over-relationship in many ways. We make the decision to end these relationships and then cut off contact. We place our health and survival first.
Our difficulty in doing this – and most of us have a very hard time of it – is evidence of more than the expertise of the sociopath in placing a hook in our hearts. That hook is not of their creation but ours. They take advantage of our internal rules and feelings of need or insecurity. Some of those rules might be that we must be nice people, kind or generous, and we must be fair or tolerant. Some of our needs might be that we want to be liked or appreciated, or that we expect something back from all the investments we made in the relationship. Some of our insecurities might be that we are not really attractive or lovable, or that if we leave this relationship, we’ll never be able to recoup all that we’ve lost. Sociopaths take advantage of all that, but they couldn’t take advantage of these issues, if we were inclined to feel these things in the first place.
But the most important thing that sociopaths take advantage of is our inclination to give up our power. We are willing to allow other people to lead us. We are willing to believe that other people know more about us than we do. We are willing to give up things we care about in order to keep the peace. We imagine that maintaining our boundaries is something burdensome that we only do when faced with “bad” people, and we prefer to be wide open to everyone and hope for the best.
In going no contact, we take back our power at very fundamental level. We make a choice about what we allow in our lives. Later, as we mull through the relationship and start to become clearer about the way that it was structured — that they won and we lost at every juncture — we begin to call it exploitation. Then we get angry, and we begin to pay much closer attention to the quality of our boundaries. Over time, in a successful recovery, we become much, much better at recognizing threats and defending ourselves.
Transitioning from defensive to creative living
A friend of mine who is just starting to go through trauma processing said to me that he feels frustrated because he can’t answer the question, “What do you want?” None of us can really answer that question in any practical sense until we have some feeling of what we’re capable of. In our angry, boundary-building, self-defensive phase, we learn a lot.
Probably the most important thing is that we learn that we’re capable of saying no. And thinking it, too. We say no, when things don’t feel right to us, or when someone offers us a deal that is clearly wrong for us. We think no, when we have an opportunity to do something that leads somewhere we don’t want to go. We start making judgments about what is bad for us. We get better at doing the blessed trio of self-defensive behaviors – avoiding problems, getting rid of them, and doing battle, if necessary.
At some point, we realize that there is a flip side to all this. Because in learning to recognize what we don’t want, we learn about what we do want. We don’t want disrespectful relationships. That might mean we do want respectful ones. We don’t want lies. That might mean that we want truth from people we deal with. We don’t want chaos in our lives. That might mean that we want to be able to work on our own plans, and enjoy the fruits of our labor.
Developing positive objectives, after we have developed good boundaries and defensive skills, brings us around to having potential characteristics that are very much like those that so frustrated me when I was dealing with my sociopath. Everything was about him. What he wanted. In negotiations, he never lost sight of his personal plans and objectives. He cared about my feelings when they mattered to him, in terms of getting what we wanted. He didn’t waste time or energy on issues that had nothing to do with him.
Many of us wonder if we are becoming sociopaths when we are recovering from these relationships. It is so foreign to us to fight for what we want. When we’re in the angry phase, it’s common for us to feel like we want revenge, because we feel like we’ve been victimized. But later, when we are less inclined to feel like victims, we realize that there are better places to put our energy. That living well is really the best revenge.
I am not suggesting that we become sociopaths. But that they have something to teach us that we, as the particular kind of people who get involved with sociopaths, can profit from learning. Sociopaths are like sharks. They don’t have the capacity to make the choice between relationship and outcome in a personal interaction. They will always look to win. As dolphins, we can choose to be accommodating or take care of ourselves, depending on the circumstances.
In practical terms, what does this mean about our relationships? It means we start viewing our relationships not just as good in themselves, but as means to get what we want. This may sound cynical, but it’s really not when it comes to our good relationships. Good relationships are good because they give us what we want and need. In dealing with people who are more problematic, we become more practical. Not everyone in the world is meant to be our close friend or lover. But sometimes people are good for something else, and so we use them for that. We moderate our involvement. But because we are feeling people, we don’t engage in behavior that is hurtful. If pain starts to be part of either side of a relationship, we either do what we can to fix it or we get out of it.
More than that, we become honest. First with ourselves, about what we want from the relationship and how it fits into the bigger picture of our lives. Sharing this information is done in a context of trust. If we don’t know if we can trust someone, we don’t expose all our dreams and motivations. But in our close relationships, we become honest and take the risk of an argument. Good relationships include disagreements. If a relationship won’t survive an argument, someone is demanding control and/or hiding their true intentions. Telling the truth enables the argument to be about us and what we want, not historical blaming or personal attacks.
We learn to make important statements that begin with “I want,” “I feel” and “I like.” When the other person is making similar statements, we discover intimacy. The conversation naturally becomes deeper and more rewarding. Yes, it’s risky to expose ourselves in this way. Yes, we have to be prepared for disagreement, rejection and possibly the end of the relationship. But for the right reasons. We don’t want close personal relationships with people who don’t like or can’t understand us. But in learning to become more open – and being capable of defending ourselves at the same time – we may discover intimacy even with passing strangers.
Confidence in our ability to defend ourselves, commitment to our own goals and objectives, and honesty are a powerful combination. It can transform our world, our relationships, and our sense of the trajectory of our lives. If this is what we gain from the sociopath’s classroom, we have learned well.
Namaste.
Kathy
written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •
Wini says:
geminigirl. I hate to write this … but I will. God is all forgiven that he put the plan of the millenium into His truth. The millenium (spelling??) is 1000 years of learning God’s truth for those that didn’t get it right down here. They get to learn the truth and nothing but the truth … prior to being judged. All family and friends can help their loved ones. We can’t do it down here on earth because God told us that family, friends etc. that are close to us will rebel if we try to speak His truth to them. It’s the Cain and Abel thing going on (aka jealousy that they knew us when we were kids … then how come we learned the truth and they didn’t? Etc.) So, they reject our speaking about Truth to them just to rebel against us.
So, Gemini … don’t worry about them. Let them do what they will do on earth (it’s their loss, not yours). You can pray to God to change their hearts though … but, when they die and meet Him, they have a big surprise … they have to attend summer school sort to speak of the millenium for 1000 years to learn His truth. A thousand years in man’s time is one day in the Lords. After they learn the truth … then God judges them if they want to continue to follow Satan or come with Him. Oh, and I do believe they don’t have sins to blind them during their summer school. They are humbled during this time. Humble so they can hear truth … no ego to hang them up. All the sins are down here while we experience life on earth. I do believe that most of them get it (SMILE). That’s why when they have big egos down on earth … we experience hell while on earth because of their arrogance.
Peace.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
wini – i wanted to comment on your saying that Christianity was a language the other day. I agree; at core all (what i’ll call) ‘spiritual systems’ are just that.
but they are also ‘religions’ and carry the cultural baggage of control and manipulation. this is where it gets dicey. i respect your citations because i do see them as a language, and one that is useful in my endeavor to decode evil. to other people Christianity is about the baggage – the negative emotional connection to the sacred or to the secular christian society due to the experience of control manipulation or abuse in the name.
And then there are aesthetics. And folks who just figure anyone who believes in anything are juvenile, and who like to tell anyone who believes this very thing.
It’s a rich world.
best
one step
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one_step_at_a_time says:
well, that interview sucked.
argghhhhhhh.
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ErinBrock says:
One:
DON”T BE SO HARD ON YOURSELF!!!!!!
IT WILL turn around…..YOU WILL find just the right postiion for you……the world needs you in other realms right now…..
Do not fret!!!!
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silvermoon says:
Interviews all suck. I have made some terrible faux pas in interviews. Some I recovered from and some I didn’t.
You just keep going. Its one step in the process.
Ask yourself what went sideways and if you had a do over what would you do differently and then call them and talk about it.
Follow up is the key to getting the job. If you want it, Fight for it.
All battle plans change after the fist skirmish.
Everything isn’t all or nothing……
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one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – i am not being hard on myself. it did suck. not saying i sucked – although i wasn’t great. but they sucked. one guy kept falling asleep and the other was a bulldog.
blech.
silver – i have no fight left.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
okay – i worked my heart out for the first job with the church. worked it OUT. put together a business plan, a portfolio, etc.
really wanted that position. we were made for one another.
didn’t get it.
2nd job – worked a lot less hard – they said i was #2. didn’t really want it. but ya know…
didn’t get it.
this one – sigh. i am burnt out. a friend has used leverage. they just offered me the job. it’s a short term contract. but it pays damn well.
one step has a job. too tired too scared too sick to celebrate. plus it’s 100 degrees here in the shade. celebration is going to be laying still on the bed with my swollen legs up against the wall.
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silvermoon says:
One,
So far so good.
Congrats.
Its ok to be at peace. What’s wrong with that. Down here we understand hot and we know that moving slowly (or not at all)is a legitimate response
Good going.
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ErinBrock says:
One:
I’m celebrating for you! So you just sit still and be at peace.
I’ve got the misters hooked up for you…..with water…NOT WASP spray!
Congratulations……
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bibleannie says:
I continually have to remind myself of all the selfish, disgusting behavior when I start to feel like he’s worming his way back into “my space”. I am learning very well to be at peace (somewhat) I must practice this until it becomes so natural for me in any interaction with him.
He’s got his country club membership, he thinks he’s rubbing shoulders with the big wigs, but he’s fuming at me inside because I told him that I would not be his “play mate” anymore and that I would simply take care of the the home, cook for him, do his laundry ect…
The more he’s gone playing golf, or doing whatever the hell he wants now, I encourage it. I can breath again and relax somewhat.
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bibleannie says:
you would think that any normal person would be thrilled to even have what I am offering. He’s not. He’s pissed cause he can’t parade me around anymore and use me as his “tool” to gain access to using others.
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hens says:
congrats to onesteppers – can I borrow some cash?
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bluejay says:
one_step_at_a_time,
Congratulations on getting a job! With all that you have faced, having read many of your posts, I wish that you could have a deep time of rest – nothing to worry about, no health issues flaring up, money in the bank, be “on easy street” for a good long time. You sound wiped out, spent, so many things to contend with. Whether you know it or not, there are many people rooting for you (LF readers and posters), sympathising with you and your struggles. I anticipate the job to be a blessing, hopefully, leading to other good things.
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bluejay says:
bibleannie,
Unfortunately, they can’t appreciate what a good woman has to offer, being too disordered to be grateful for all good things. I’ve had the same thoughts. What is bothersome is their willingness to be sneaky, devious, and underhanded (scoundrels). My h-spath looks like your average, everyday type of man, but underneath the surface is a person who lies, cheats, and steals, exhibiting very disturbing behaviors. I get heavy-hearted just thinking about his true character. I think that it is impossible to have a happy marriage with one of these people, living on a roller-coaster of their design. Hopefully, a normal man would be able to appreciate all your qualities, good and bad, the whole package.
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shabbychic says:
one — That is great!!!!!! Congrats!
Hope you feel better very soon!
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erin1972 says:
one_step-CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! I am SO glad for you and I hope you feel better!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hello my supporters! thank you, every one of you. it means so much to have this support.
one little step at a time. i have a few days now (in this merciless heat) to wind down a bit – i think i am going to rent a car and go camp on the land.
bluejay – ty – i wish i could have some serious downtime also. but it’s not to be in this moment. i don’t know how this will go, and i have reason for concern – one little step at a time.
hens – you f$%*ing made me laugh aloud!
THANK YOU. the cheque is in the mail. 
your generosity has been a big help to me. helped me know there were other sources, just in case it got worse. it always can. (have you ever read The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fist Fight in Heaven by Sherman Alexie?)
okay, need to buy some shoes, and some clothes. my big ol belly only fits the pants and shirt i bought 4 weeks ago for interviews. i am going to buy some fun stuff – never mind the ‘staples’ – I won’t wear these clothes for long but i need some business clothes. new offic eis AC. WAHOO!
i start today also – to get my eating under control.
thanks again everyone!
one step
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ErinBrock says:
Gooooo team ONESTEP!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
EB – it pays WELL. as soon as i can i am going to sit down with a retired financial planner i know and put together a budget. (one needs money to have a budget.) and start working on getting back on track. the job only goes to march – so i don’t have a lot of time, but i think i can accomplish quite a lot in terms of reducing my debt.
Of course the very FIRST thought i had was: Christmas in Belize!
now that my friends have left me and i no longer hang out with my family it would be great….but no, i won’t be doing that. actually that was my second thought, my first thought was a donation to the food bank. and that i will do.
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ErinBrock says:
Ohhhh….Christmas in Belize……YUM!!!
Hey….at least you can buy some time until March……to decide your next move……that’s a great step up darlen!
Oooooooooohhhhhh…..Christmas in Belize…..hmmmmmm, NOW that’s a thought!
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erin1972 says:
One_step-you sound SO good. I love it.
I wanted to tell all ya’ll that I may end up moving after the first of the year. I just got the official news this morning that it will be highly unlikely that I will get my police job back anytime soon. The city budget is so in the red that they won’t hire and they fired 12 recruits from the current class plus 38 other people in the department. I am hitting the workouts as hard as possible to get in shape and the army is a consideration-plus applying to St. Louis, Washington DC and maybe a few others. I can’t wait to get into a job but it makes me a little nauseated thinking of leaving New Orleans-it will be extremely insanely difficult. My how our plans change. I am OK with it though. I’m not feeling like freaking out.
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hens says:
erin72 I think moving would be a good idea. NewOrleans has been hit hard over and over with katrina and now the oilspill…And leaving all those memories behind will be good for you..They have layed off alot of law inforcement here in OK..I think your future is looking bright…there is a good man out there waitin on you – get your tar balls packed and go go go..sometimes we have to be willing to let go of the life we had planned and start living the life that is waiting on us…
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erin1972 says:
Hens-I think it would be good for me, but my heart is the big problem. I was born here. I had to leave due to my dad’s job when I was 10 and had a MASSIVE hole in my heart for 20something years that I was gone. It’s this attachment to this city that the natives have-it’s impossible to shake. When I got back here in Jan of 2007 I cried and I kissed the ground.
I was feeling ok about going until I was driving along the river to go the park to ride my bike this evening. All of a sudden I felt like I would die if I had to leave. The city is big enough for me and the spath. I was born here and he wasn’t. He came here in 2003. I don’t what’s going to happen. After the 1st of the year I’m going to apply for New Orleans, St. Louis, D.C. I have to explore other options. My captain in NOPD keeps me informed of what’s going on. My big thing is that I can’t put all my eggs in one basket. I could go away for a few years if I have to and then come back. If I can get in enough shape, I would enjoy the army-then I would feel like leaving here is only temporary. I would be away during my tour and then come home. Sometimes I don’t like change!
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ErinBrock says:
Hens:
‘sometimes we have to be willing to let go of the life we had planned and start living the life that is waiting on us…”
That is sooooo spot on!
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hens says:
I understand, there is no place like home. I was trying to cheer ya onward and forward…
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erin1972 says:
thanks Hens-you are cheering me onward and forward. I am doing well in the fact that I’m not freaking out about the idea of me not getting the job back. I will apply at the other places but if New Orleans says I can’t go back for a whole year-I may not be able to wait around for them. Then I will have to focus elsewhere. I really want to get THAT career up and moving. If I can somewhere else and do it sooner, than I will have to do that.
I like the idea of me finding a man-like you said. I do definitely want to be married someday. I have to completely love myself before that can happen. Right now I’m not ready and I don’t want it. This guy who lives downstairs from me keeps falling all over himself trying to talk to me and it gives me a bad vibe. I just want to tell him to go away. He’s just TOO eager and I am totally not at all interested in him-for any reason!
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Wini says:
One Step, the reason I used the reference of Christianity of being a language because Christians do speak with other Christians who know Jesus’ truth. One Christian can mention a scripture and all (practicing) Christians know exactly what this person is referring too. The Christian speaking doesn’t even have to finish the sentence. Christians know (through faith) we practice the truth about life and the hereafter. Same example can be said of the English language and all it’s slang. Anyone who speaks English (in this country, not England … that’s an entirely different language, the King’s language) and heard the variety of slang associated with it, understands when an English speaking person uses said slang. A person from England would not necessarily comprehend the slang the way it is used in this country. To them, the slang could mean something entirely different (e.g. a bonnet in the USA is a woman’s hat that is worn to keep the sun off her face, whereas, a bonnet in England is the hood of their car).
Remember One Step, some men (or women) manipulate the word of Jesus to control the masses. We know from this blog that Spaths are everywhere, every profession, every race, every nationality, either sex, and of course they are all through the churches. Actually, it is written that Jesus will take care of all those that corrupted His Truth. We have to remember, this will be done on God’s time, not ours.
As far as those that believe Christians are juvenile, that too is written. It all comes under the heading of Satan rules our world and corrupts Jesus’ truth, blinds the eyes (via sin) so people can’t see His truth, deafens the ears so people can’t hear His truth … etc. It’s the same old war that has been going on through the history of the world. Follow God and you live. Follow Satan and you die.
Who do you think the Spaths we blog about follow? It certainly isn’t God! They can profess (give everyone lip service) to love God, but they really hate God. They don’t even love Satan but they follow the evil one, Satan.
God loves. Satan hates. God is Truth. Satan is Lies. God is compassion. Satan has no compassion … hence why the Spaths we endured did not give us compassion when they went for our juggler. They didn’t give anyone compassion because they never learned how to be compassionate all the years they’ve been on earth because Satan doesn’t teach compassion. If Satan doesn’t teach compassion and our Spaths follow Satan, then it’s obvious we shouldn’t expect compassion from any of them?
Anyway, most folks that cut God down are either deceived and blinded by Satan’s multitude of lies on the earth (remember, Satan controls the earth. He wants man to follow him and not God because he knows he will be destroyed in the eternal fires and he doesn’t want to go alone, he wants as many humans to follow him so he tells humans anything they want to hear), or they follow Satan, which means they do not want to take responsibility for their thoughts, words, actions and want to keep chaos flourishing. Keep everyone off guard so folks don’t know what to do, what to believe or not believe. All this is written too. Isn’t it funny how long ago the Bible was written and His truth is still truth?
Satan is the king of confusion. Confuse humans so he can pull the rug out from under you. Satan also has a grip on everyone’s ego. That’s how he convinces everyone not to follow God … because it would be immature, foolish, this, that … yadda, yadda, yadda.
Let me ask you these questions. How do you think you learned about compassion? Love? Ethics? Morals? Honesty? Faithfulness? How, not to steal? Not to lie? To do this and not that?
Answer: If you grew up in the USA. You watched movies, TV shows, cartoons, commercials, listened to the radio etc. Who do you think ran and runs Hollywood? The Jews. What do the Jews practice? The Torah. What is the Torah? The Old Testament of the Bible. What is the Bible? The word of God. His truth about how to live life and what happens after we die. What do you think the Jewish directors, script writers, producers, actors put in their story lines?
And, now you know how all the non-practicing folks learned the basics of God’s word. The Jews did this so we can all be on the same page.
Peace.
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OxDrover says:
Dear E72,
You know one thing ab out nursing that I really LOVED is there are 9,876 different kinds of jobs you can do and still be a nurse. I worked in a bunch of different areas, and learning a new area is great fun!
So if you don’t like the job you have in nuirsing, find a differenht kind of nursing, get one that isn’t at a hospital, try auditiing charts or medical billing or lgo to work for the STATE health department and inspect nursing homes, or go to work for the JCHO—or go to work for a doctor’s office, or in a baby nursery, find some4 kind of job you DO like that will pay well while you lose the weight. Then you won’t have to worry about running into that woman.
Think outsThere are infection health nurses and otgher things that are easily learned and red cross nurses, and school nurses, and home care nurses, hospice nurses—-go get ya a job that is not where you are now! TOWANDA
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BloggerT7165 says:
Wini, I think you are wrong on most of what you just posted (FYI I am not meaning for this post to be taken as directed about you personally). The Abrahamic faiths are zero-sum faiths, meaning they state they are right and everyone else is wrong. This opens the door to self-righteousness and narcissism. Christians don’t all speak the same language nor is your example right. There are differences in the Catholic bible and the Protestant bible and if one never knew them both you would not be able to “know exactly what this person is referring too”.
Religion is what we interpret it to be, even as we deny we are interpreting; and God says what we choose God to say, even as we deny we are choosing. This denial makes us vulnerable and opens the door even wider to the self-righteous, judgmental proselytizing as well as allowing us to justify our behaviors towards the “them”.
If a guy is a good citizen, if he works hard, if every once in a while he laughs, if every once in a while he thinks about somebody else and, above all else, if he can find his way to compassion and tolerance, then he’s my brother (or sister). But what I can’t stomach is the self-righteous judgmental proselytizing that some do in an attempt to allegedly convince others to think and believe the same way they do. I don’t want to hear it, I want to see it. Show me, model it for me, prove it by your actions.
As for learning all those values, I know that you do not need the bible (or other religious material) to learn those things. There were people way before the bible appeared that had those traits and there are a ton of non-christians including atheists that have those values.
Consider this, Atheists did not fly airplanes into buildings today, nor did they blow themselves up in crowded areas; they did not claim that floods, earthquakes, hurricanes and disabled babies are God’s punishments; no minority group was oppressed, no wars were fought, no child abused or denied medical treatment in the name of Atheisism. And these are a group of folks who is somehow dammed or evil or “satans” followers?
Which leads me to my rant wrap up. I would direct you to Romans 2:1-16. I also find it oddly amusing how often some people know so much yet know so little about their own religion. I am amazed at how few even know how the “bible” as they know it today came to be. How and when it was put together, why some books were included and some were not, the politics of the church and the times and how that affected it, etc. Mostly I find myself ashamed of how the fundamentalists of all religions make the human race as a whole look so awful. I long for more tolerance and humility, which seem to be in short supply in some areas.
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Wini says:
BloggerT7165, first, righteousness means TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT. What part of doing what is right doesn’t sit well with you?
Second, there is only ONE Bible. What you referred to as Catholic, Protestant etc. are denominations of man. Not God.
Third. Only God judges. Human are allowed to discern. Big difference. Just as we on LF are discerning what Spaths did to us and how to get through the healing due to the aftermath of being trashed and burned. Again, are you against LF bloggers discerning and discussing what Spaths are all about? Teaching what we have learned?
Fourth, I specifically stated Christians who practice Christianity (which means they read the word of God … not those that attend church and never read the Bible in their lives).
Fifth, Christianity is NOT a religion. It is the truth about life and the hereafter.
Sixth, Christianity teaches people how to think, live, conduct themselves righteously (meaning to do what is right). If we didn’t have the word of God, people wouldn’t know what was right and what was wrong. Besides, God destroyed those in the first earth age for doing wrong.
Seventh, my EX Spath pretended to do what was right! Yes, he did what was right … what was right by him for him only!
Eighth, there were NO Christians who flew the planes into the Trade Centers either … but there was plenty of Christians who were the heroes on the ground (firemen, policemen, priests, water authority etc).
Ninth, all the missing scrolls can be studied too … if a person desires.
Tenth, should I go on about learning? Step by step … build onto what is TRUE.
Finally, every Atheist (or non-believer in God) I’ve talked with wants to take what is known about God’s truth (aka wisdom), throw God out of the mix and call His teaching something else. Oh, I forgot, they did it already, non-believers call God’s truth … common sense (LOL). Beside BloggerT, I’ve never ever seen an Atheist present a manifesto to teach what is right and what is wrong. All I’ve ever witnessed from a non-believer is to complain about everything because they didn’t create it in the first place. Sorry, God is the “I AM” before any atheist existed.
BloggerT, I’m sure if I missed answering anything you wrote, you’ll write me back to keep this debate going. Give some thought to this question …you learned the basics of mathematics. Do Atheists (or non-believers) want to change the word mathematics to something else because they are miffed that they didn’t invent the theory of mathematics too?
Peace.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Well Wini I would ask that you look up the meaning of self-righteousness which is completely different than what you just said. Next I would say there is a difference between discerning as you put it and judging someone spiritually.
Christianity is not a religion? Ok if you say so. But you are assuming that your views of christianity are “right” and then basing all your statements on that.
Your #6 is just wrong. I try to be a decent person because it is the right thing to do. I know people of different religions and no religions that are the same way.
#8 – You missed the point.
As for your comment about atheists, one I have known a few that teach all sorts of good positive things. As for the whole math bit it is just another fallacy because you assume your view is right and theirs and others is not.
What I am trying to point out is that no one group has a monopoly on ulimate truth. And trying to claim that one group does and everyone who does not agree with that view is wrong comes across as smug, condescending, judgmental, and abusive.
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Wini says:
BloggerT, I am not the one complaining about God’s truth. Every thing and any thing a non-believer claims is their truth, was written years before they were ever born. Non-believers just sit on the side line and refuse to take a stand for God, who created every one and all things. It is written …non-believers haven’t the conviction of “faith” and therefore, refuse to read the word of God. Non-believers are more concerned with the worldly view of man, than to give Glory to God.
Do some research and come to your own conclusion. Every religion in the world is compared to each other and to the Truth of God’s. Only God’s word (truth) is complete. All others fall short. They either don’t teach everything to it’s completion or leave out an explanation all together.
Peace.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Ok Wini
As for research I think if you ever got to know my religious background and the amount of “research” you would be surprised.
And again I refer you to Romans 2:1-16.
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BloggerT7165 says:
I think you are proving my points quite well Wini.
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Wini says:
BloggerT, to have my posts deleted is not proving a point. It only means that your writings get posted and my thoughts are blocked.
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BloggerT7165 says:
I have no clue what you are talking about with that last post.
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Wini says:
BloggerT, I must have written 5 or 6 posts in response to your post to me (earlier this a.m.) … which were deleted. Therefore, communicating with you on the topic of God is supposedly a mute point.
Got to go get some work done around the yard before it rains.
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BloggerT7165 says:
I see. Well I did not ask for them to be removed and with them gone it makes my post about you proving my points quite well take on a different aspect.
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Wini says:
BloggerT, I saved what you wrote on how you believe in God. The words were that of a Rabbi you admire and took his beliefs as your own.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Which words, there have been so many
As for “took his beliefs as your own” I wouldn’t go that far. There are a number of ministers, pastors, rabbi’s, atheists and others who have said and written things that I find admirable. Though it would be a stretch to say that I took their belief(s) as my own.
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Wini says:
BloggerT, that’s what you wrote on Wednesday, 24 December 2008 @ 10:39am.
I’m logging off now. Seriously, it’s going to pour any minute now and I’ve got to get something completed outside before it does.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Found it…Ok see ya Wini. I’ll see if I can find what you are talking about on here so I can read it.
Thank you Wini I found it and yes I do agree with what I wrote there. I used his words to describe it but they were my thoughts long before I ever knew him.
I also found where I posted this:
Wini the one biblical passage I try to use to guide my life is this one:
It is doing justly, loving mercy, and walking humbly with your God (Micah 6:8).
With that said I also find wisdom from many faiths.
Thanks again for reminding me of that post.
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
Good news to share! I have landed the two contracts I have been working on. I will be making more than in the last contract and have the opportunity to travel a bit with work (to a bigger city – even three times a year will be so awesome for me.) I am so giddy, i just wanna lay down and wiggle my toes in the air and not do one more ounce of work today (not possible, as I need to get an application out for something else.) Hens, if you are out there, i especially want you to know – i am taking more steps, and it’s working. i have shoes!
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hens says:
These boot’s are made for walkin and that’s what your gonna do ~! Good new’s is good knews – thanks for sharing – now send me some cash,,
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hens says:
wow this is an old thread – winni winni winni and blogger t
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one/joy_step_at_a_time says:
yah, it’s a very old thread. soon as i have some hens, i be sending it!
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