After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 14 – Discovering What We Are Capable Of
PDF The Buddhists say that we fall in love with our teachers. I know that in my relationship with the man I now belief is a sociopath, I realized early that I was in a sort of classroom.
He clearly saw the world differently than I did, and operated on principles that were so foreign to me that I couldn’t begin to connect the dots. I was truly in love with this man, had a clear vision of the benefits a good relationship would bring to both of us, and wanted to make it work. So I tried to understand. I kept trying through all the emotional pain that started very early in the relationship. I worked at getting him to appreciate and trust me more than he did. I also experimented with mimicking his behaviors, even though they were outside my comfort zone.
In all of this, I learned one basic lesson. No matter what I did, I lost. I didn’t get what I wanted from him. In negotiations or trades, I came out on the short end of the stick. I invested more than he did. Any temporary gain I won cost me more down the road. I lost money. Career equity. Personal connections. Self-respect. My expectations of the relationship kept diminishing through the five years I knew him, until my efforts were mainly centered on avoiding pain.
Through all this I was still profoundly attached to him. Part of me knew this was crazy, but I couldn’t break away. He was like a powerful magnet. Oddly, there was also a little voice in my mind that popped up occasionally, telling me, “Pay attention. This is important.” I had no idea what it meant, but in a way, it was the thing that kept me sane. It was telling me that this was happening for a reason.
This article is about one of the most important aspects of trauma processing. It is about what we learn as we realize that there is some other reality on the other side of healing. We play with this idea all the way through our healing. Certainly, the angry phase is about learning to be different than we were, working on not being a victim anymore. But there is more than that. There is also learning the lessons that sociopaths can teach us about winning.
The difference between sociopaths and us
In Strategy of the Dolphin, the book I mentioned in the first of these articles, the authors divided the world into two types of people, sharks and carps. Sharks are addicted to winning. Carps are addicted to being loved. These rough generalizations offer us a wealth of understanding about the differences between empaths (feeling people) and people who cannot bond.
There is another, related concept in this book about the nature of human interactions. That is, in all interactions, we act on what is most important to us – either the relationship or the outcome. If we are more concerned about the relationship, we are willing to compromise or give in to keep things friendly between us. If we are more concerned about the outcome, we will do whatever we have to do to get what we want. Outcome-oriented interactions may include a lot of apparent relationship-building but it is all part of the plan to get the desired outcome.
In the last year of our relationship, after being flattered, charmed and seduced for a few weeks by my ex, I agreed to a new arrangement that equated to paying for him living with me. Once he had the agreement, he reverted to his old cruel, distant and domineering self. (And I was stuck with supporting him, while he treated me like this.) When I asked him why he was so nice when he was leading up to a deal, he looked at me as though I were stupid and said, “We were in a negotiation. How did you think I’d behave?”
What I wanted to say to him was, “I expect you to not use my feelings against me.” But it was pointless. He regarded my feelings toward him as an annoyance. To him, everything was deals. He viewed people in terms of relative power. As long as I had the power in the relationship – such as when he was trying to get me to agree to something – he was going to suck up. When I didn’t have anything further that he wanted, my feelings or desires were unimportant. If I wanted something from him, he had the power and it was my job to offer him enough payment to make it worth his while.
I can write this very clearly now, but at the time, it was simply incomprehensible. My life was about love and all its permutations. I wanted to be liked and accepted. I was highly aware of other people’s insecurities and needs. Most of my relationships had some element of helping and I even made my living helping other people achieve their dreams. I tended to over-perform, because I was worried about meeting other people’s expectations. I worked too hard, over-committed, and took responsibility for everything – other people’s feelings, when things didn’t work out perfectly, and for my inability to take care of myself very well.
Naturally, my clients and lovers enjoyed the intense effort and creativity I put into their satisfaction. And naturally, I attracted a certain type of person, people who needed more than they could get from providers with healthier boundaries. I was perfect for my sociopath. He needed someone who would care about him enough to help him achieve his personal goals. That was me. And he was clever enough to give me exactly the minimum attention necessary to keep me thinking I was in a romantic relationship.
Learning another strategy
The authors of Strategy of the Dolphin talk about a third type, the dolphin, which has two characteristics that are different from the carp and the shark. The dolphin experiments with new strategies, when its standard behaviors aren’t working in a situation. Second, the dolphin will generally act like a peaceable, relationship-oriented carp unless circumstances require acting like a shark. When it is necessary to place outcome over relationship, the dolphin has no problem doing that.
In our healing from relationships with sociopaths, we practice outcome-over-relationship in many ways. We make the decision to end these relationships and then cut off contact. We place our health and survival first.
Our difficulty in doing this – and most of us have a very hard time of it – is evidence of more than the expertise of the sociopath in placing a hook in our hearts. That hook is not of their creation but ours. They take advantage of our internal rules and feelings of need or insecurity. Some of those rules might be that we must be nice people, kind or generous, and we must be fair or tolerant. Some of our needs might be that we want to be liked or appreciated, or that we expect something back from all the investments we made in the relationship. Some of our insecurities might be that we are not really attractive or lovable, or that if we leave this relationship, we’ll never be able to recoup all that we’ve lost. Sociopaths take advantage of all that, but they couldn’t take advantage of these issues, if we were inclined to feel these things in the first place.
But the most important thing that sociopaths take advantage of is our inclination to give up our power. We are willing to allow other people to lead us. We are willing to believe that other people know more about us than we do. We are willing to give up things we care about in order to keep the peace. We imagine that maintaining our boundaries is something burdensome that we only do when faced with “bad” people, and we prefer to be wide open to everyone and hope for the best.
In going no contact, we take back our power at very fundamental level. We make a choice about what we allow in our lives. Later, as we mull through the relationship and start to become clearer about the way that it was structured — that they won and we lost at every juncture — we begin to call it exploitation. Then we get angry, and we begin to pay much closer attention to the quality of our boundaries. Over time, in a successful recovery, we become much, much better at recognizing threats and defending ourselves.
Transitioning from defensive to creative living
A friend of mine who is just starting to go through trauma processing said to me that he feels frustrated because he can’t answer the question, “What do you want?” None of us can really answer that question in any practical sense until we have some feeling of what we’re capable of. In our angry, boundary-building, self-defensive phase, we learn a lot.
Probably the most important thing is that we learn that we’re capable of saying no. And thinking it, too. We say no, when things don’t feel right to us, or when someone offers us a deal that is clearly wrong for us. We think no, when we have an opportunity to do something that leads somewhere we don’t want to go. We start making judgments about what is bad for us. We get better at doing the blessed trio of self-defensive behaviors – avoiding problems, getting rid of them, and doing battle, if necessary.
At some point, we realize that there is a flip side to all this. Because in learning to recognize what we don’t want, we learn about what we do want. We don’t want disrespectful relationships. That might mean we do want respectful ones. We don’t want lies. That might mean that we want truth from people we deal with. We don’t want chaos in our lives. That might mean that we want to be able to work on our own plans, and enjoy the fruits of our labor.
Developing positive objectives, after we have developed good boundaries and defensive skills, brings us around to having potential characteristics that are very much like those that so frustrated me when I was dealing with my sociopath. Everything was about him. What he wanted. In negotiations, he never lost sight of his personal plans and objectives. He cared about my feelings when they mattered to him, in terms of getting what we wanted. He didn’t waste time or energy on issues that had nothing to do with him.
Many of us wonder if we are becoming sociopaths when we are recovering from these relationships. It is so foreign to us to fight for what we want. When we’re in the angry phase, it’s common for us to feel like we want revenge, because we feel like we’ve been victimized. But later, when we are less inclined to feel like victims, we realize that there are better places to put our energy. That living well is really the best revenge.
I am not suggesting that we become sociopaths. But that they have something to teach us that we, as the particular kind of people who get involved with sociopaths, can profit from learning. Sociopaths are like sharks. They don’t have the capacity to make the choice between relationship and outcome in a personal interaction. They will always look to win. As dolphins, we can choose to be accommodating or take care of ourselves, depending on the circumstances.
In practical terms, what does this mean about our relationships? It means we start viewing our relationships not just as good in themselves, but as means to get what we want. This may sound cynical, but it’s really not when it comes to our good relationships. Good relationships are good because they give us what we want and need. In dealing with people who are more problematic, we become more practical. Not everyone in the world is meant to be our close friend or lover. But sometimes people are good for something else, and so we use them for that. We moderate our involvement. But because we are feeling people, we don’t engage in behavior that is hurtful. If pain starts to be part of either side of a relationship, we either do what we can to fix it or we get out of it.
More than that, we become honest. First with ourselves, about what we want from the relationship and how it fits into the bigger picture of our lives. Sharing this information is done in a context of trust. If we don’t know if we can trust someone, we don’t expose all our dreams and motivations. But in our close relationships, we become honest and take the risk of an argument. Good relationships include disagreements. If a relationship won’t survive an argument, someone is demanding control and/or hiding their true intentions. Telling the truth enables the argument to be about us and what we want, not historical blaming or personal attacks.
We learn to make important statements that begin with “I want,” “I feel” and “I like.” When the other person is making similar statements, we discover intimacy. The conversation naturally becomes deeper and more rewarding. Yes, it’s risky to expose ourselves in this way. Yes, we have to be prepared for disagreement, rejection and possibly the end of the relationship. But for the right reasons. We don’t want close personal relationships with people who don’t like or can’t understand us. But in learning to become more open – and being capable of defending ourselves at the same time – we may discover intimacy even with passing strangers.
Confidence in our ability to defend ourselves, commitment to our own goals and objectives, and honesty are a powerful combination. It can transform our world, our relationships, and our sense of the trajectory of our lives. If this is what we gain from the sociopath’s classroom, we have learned well.
Namaste.
Kathy
written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •
kim frederick says:
Witsend, what would happen if you just totally bowed out of his life? If you no longer set curfew; expected him to attend school; Had no opinion about his friends; didn’t care what he did in his room; etc. Do you think if you gave him enough rope he might hang himself? Do you think he might then get in trouble with the law, and be incarcerated? It’s just a thought. God Bless.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Sweetie! BOINK! every time you go back to thinking that the laws or courts might help you, repeat after me, “I will burn the house”——write it 500 times and turn it in by Saturday or go sit in the bathroom with a fire extinguisher with the door locked.
Whatever you do to pith him off is going to back fire on you, and he will NOT be kept in jail for life for sleeping in class. Heck, sweetie, they don’t keep ROBBERS and VIOLENT kids in Jail for long—a few days unless it is murder! What do you think they are going to do cause he sleeps in class? Crucify him?
He has you over a barrel because he has indicated to you that he WILL RETALIATE VIOLENTLY if you do anything to try to control him or to sanction him for not doing what he doesn’t want to do.
YOU DO NOT HAVE CONTROL OVER HIM. The law will not take control of him, and even if they did, it won’t be for long. He already HATES YOU, so what do you think he will do when the law lets him out of jail/juvy etc. THEY WILL SEND HIM HOME TO YOU, SWEETCHEEKS!
I know it is frustrating but you are CHECKMATED, you can’t move, you can’t recover, you can’t win in this “game” as he has, to mix my metaphors, the TRUMP CARD.
Sure, it hurts, it is frustrating, it MAKES YOU WANT TO SCREAM!!! I spent 20+ years denying the truth, the truth that I couldn’t influence him much less control him, and that he HATES ME WITH A PURPLE PASSION for what I did to him when he was 17—turn him in to the cops for stealing.
We all, to one extent or another have dwelled in DENIAL, and sweetie, that is NOT a river in Egypt, it is a SINKING ship with a bit hole in the bottom and it sinks like the Titanic. the ONLY thing we can do is to GET INTO A LIFE BOAT OF TRUTH, and paddle for all we are worth. As long as we keep on thinking the Titanic isn’t going to sink, and as long as we let life boat after life boat leave by denying that the Titanic can sink, we put ourselves more and more into jeapordy!
Sure, that life boat looks scary, but we’ve got to face TRUTH! Both emotionally and mentally and It is NOT EASY!
Thank goodness most of the time the psychopaths are not violent physically, but with those that are, plenty of women and men have LOST THEIR LIVES because they wouldn’t face the TRUTH emotionally, that they LOGICALLY KNEW.
I hope you know, Witsend that I am being harsh here, but not uncaring. Maybe I am over reacthing, but I TAKE THREATS SERIOUSLY when they come out of the mouth of a psychopath! Even Ps that don’t “verbally threaten” sometimes become violent—Scot Peterson is a good example. Laci got in his way of having what he wanted when she became pregnant, and she had to be eliminated. I don’t think it is a good idea to test out whether or not your son is violent, I think he has already shown that he has thought about it and decided he will do whatever he has to to make you do what HE wants to do and keep you from getting in the WAY of what HE WANTS. I think is is a good idea to BELIEVE HIM. ((((Hugs)))) you are in my prayers continually for your safety! Love, Oxy
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kim frederick says:
Morning, Skylar. I’ve been thinking about the approach of Halloween, and how symbolic it is to have all these little demons, monsters, vampires, etc. knockingon the doors, asking for treats, or they will play nasty tricks on you.
As far as the vampire myth goes, they can’t enter your house without an invitation. I’m not sure if that’s true though since the one who terrorized me, and sucked me dry, just removed the AC unit to come on in. I guess maybe my leaving it there, and not removing it and locking the window,(even though it was summer in Florida) ccould be considered an invitation, and not calling the cops, well, I’m SURE that was!!!
Another interesting thing about the myth….no reflection. These blood suckers can’t see themselves! And get this, they are supposed to sleep in the soil of their homeland!
Yes, I’m quite certain that for most of my life I’ve been V- supply………:)
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skylar says:
witsend, to me that means that if you are 6, 16 or any age in between you must attend school. The woman you spoke to did not understand and assumed you are trying to keep your son in school AFTER his 17th birthday.
We both know that at age 6 you must attend school. Therefore we can assume that “between 6 and 16″ means to include 6 and 16. If not, then you can sue your state legislature for bad grammar!
I just don’t understand the part about being responsible for the emancipated child’s maintenance. That makes no sense.
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skylar says:
Hi witsend, maybe I should start responding on this topic in the other thread where you and Oxy were talking…. see you there.
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kim frederick says:
Skylar, I didn’t mean to offend….sorry. I know these are serious and frustrating issues, I was trying to be funny. My bad. I really only meant that the vampires carry their baggage from childhood with them, wherever they go………..
I was thinking about the whole Halloween vampire thing all day yesterday. Maybe I choose an inoportune time to post it.
I REALLY meant no harm….:).
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skylar says:
Morning Kim,
yes, vampire fits them well.
I’m V-supply too. seems like I can’t help wanting to be helpful. There has to be a way to turn this around on them.
After I left him, my xP actually said to me, “do you think I’m a vampire?”
He is determined to make me fear him. That’s why I’m so anxious to ridicule him with my diaper theory, but not until I can see his face… maybe even get it on hidden camera. YEAH, YOUTUBE IT!
I think the only way to get rid of them is to ridicule them out of existence. In “The Art of Selfishness” it says that you cannot talk a man out of doing evil, but if you convince him that he will look stupid, you can talk him out of anything, because no one wants to look foolish.
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witsend says:
Oxy,
I have moved my computer into my small bathroom and I’m cramed in here with my fire extinguisher and my two dogs. Opps, I forgot my “homework” paper and pencil. And I’m feeling VERY BOXED IN. Lol…..
Oxy I was “exploring” this information to see if it might be something that would work.
My son isn’t truant because I wake him up a drag him out of bed to go to school. BUT if he were to “MANAGE” his own affairs within a week or so he would likely be truant….
So kind of like Kim is saying above, let him cook his own goose.
However you and I both know that right now I enabel him where school is concerned because I NEED that time. It is my “sanity” time, it allows me to focus on my work (To make some money) and get SOME of it done. When I even can FOCUS on work. That school time is ALL I GOT right now.
He isn’t going to school for the right reasons because he doesn’t participate and God help me at this point I am not sending him for the right reasons either. But in the here and now, it really is my only salvation in a 24 hour day….
Plus I can’t make him DO anything, really. That is obvious. So for some unknown reason (I have wondered many times) once I do get him out of bed he does go to school? Maybe to see his friends? I have no clue. Maybe he doesn’t fully understand the truancy laws anymore than I just did?
After talking to the truancy lady it doesn’t matter because
it is a plan that wouldn’t work.
I am not trying to piss him off (he is pissed off enough) with the emancipation. I can’t emancipate HIM he has to emancipate ME. BEFORE I looked into it I thought that might be an idea to “plant a seed” with him. How he could get RID of ME in his life and be on his own and go off to California, yadda yadda….
BUT that isn’t going to fly either once I explored the laws further online.
So as with my opening “joke” I am feeling pretty boxed in.
I do take his threats and his anger and his control VERY seriously. I don’t want to “live” here with it any more. And I thought that maybe the “reverse” would work. (him getting me out of his life) But emancipation isn’t what I had thought before I looked at it carefully.
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OxDrover says:
Dear ((((Witsend))))
Sigh!!!! I know it is tough, and it does seem you are BOXED in, without a sign of an escape route at this point! the devil on one side and the deep blue sea on the other. I do understand why you get him out to school, and as long as he is willing to go, I think it is a GOOD THING, and as far as enabling him, I don’t think you are, I think you are ENABLING yourself in a GOOD way by acting in a way that gives you the TIME YOU NEED. So TOWANDA!!! for you on that one. I think, for what it is worth, it is a GOOD CHOICE!
I feel kind of BOXED IN MYSELF today—another day of FREAKING GLOOM AND RAINNNNNNNNN!!!!!! UGH!!!!! LOL
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witsend says:
kim,
Actually other than school, and me enabling him in that department…..I have pretty much bowed out.
With a kid like this, less is more. In other words requiring him to have a clean room or put dirty dishes in the sink ect…THESE are not the battles you pick. All this kind of stuff that might normally be something you might LIKE to expect of a kid his age falls to the wayside. There is to much crazymaking on a daily basis to even CARE about such trivial stuff.
The few rules I elected to try and enforce, over the summer, and when school started, I couldn’t enforce. Curfew being the major problem then. After school or work he would just go awol.
When I brought up to him about he could easily loose his job if his boss knew his grades that is when he threatened me.
Since then I have done not much of anything. It ain’t worth it.
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skylar says:
Hey Kim,
WHAT?
I wasn’t offended by the vampire thing. I just took a long time to respond when the server was down.
Oh, you mean because I wanted to respond to Witsend on another thread? I just thought it would be easier to keep this topic on one thread.
I love your jokes. They make my day!
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Tilly says:
Thats funny! lol!
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JaneSmith says:
Dearest brilliant Kathleen,
“Not everyone in the world is meant to be our close friend or lover. But sometimes people are good for something else, and so we use them for that. We moderate our involvement. But because we are feeling people, we don’t engage in behavior that is hurtful. If pain starts to be part of either side of a relationship, we either do what we can to fix it or we get out of it.
…But in our close relationships, we become honest and take the risk of an argument. Good relationships include disagreements. If a relationship won’t survive an argument, someone is demanding control and/or hiding their true intentions. Telling the truth enables the argument to be about us and what we want, not historical blaming or personal attacks.”
I truly needed to read this today. So very much. I have had a friendship relationship with a young woman for many months now. She is a sweet, beautiful gal…when she is sober. But get a few beers in her and she becomes rude, cruel, abusive and relentless in the abuse.
I forgave her for one past incident because she’s young and we all make mistakes some time or another. She also sincerely apologized for her abusive actions and stated that she didn’t remember what happened due to the alcohol. I let it slide.
But the most recent incident was more than I can or even want to handle. I’m tired of her drunk drama. I’m tired of her rudeness to me and to the hapless people who cross her path.
I realize that she is dangerous to my tranquility, my serenity, my self preservation and want absolutely nothing to do with her anymore. The day after her absurd, abusive drama she behaved as if we both were at fault and what happened was “retarded”. Not an apology. No recognition of the harm she caused me. Nada.
I curtly told her that she is abusive when she drinks and that I have never in my entire life told another person to…”shut the f*** up!” She said that to me and I had a whirlwind of flashbacks in a minute time of people from the past who treated me the same exact way.
The fury overwhelmed me and I immediately left her presence because it’s illogical to continue speaking with a person who is insensible and irrational and under the influence of alcohol. And I didn’t want to lash out at her, to say something cruel in my defense.
Anyway, I know what you have written is more suited to predator/exploitive lovers, and I’m not saying that she is one of those because she’s wonderful, creative woman but from a reality oriented perspective, she has become dangerous to me and I no longer want contact with her. I will be civil because I’m not petty or spiteful but that will be the extent of my behavior towards her.
Thank you, Kathleen, a thousand times thank you. You always help keep me sane and on the correct path to healing and serenity.
Love you…
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OxDrover says:
Dear Sweet Janie,
I am glad you set the boundary and distanced yourself from this TOXIC woman. I have weeded my garden as well of these toxic people who pose as “friends” who are “nice” sometimes and then (for whatever “reason” or ‘excuse”) dfisplay bad and toxic and abusive behavior.
WHADDA WE NEED’EM FOR? More grief? I am determined to surround myself with good people who don’t morph into monsters of any variety—they may not be perfect, but even when they are not perfect, they are NOT ABUSIVE drunk OR sober.
Remember, a nasty drunk would be nasty when they are sober if they had the guts, the alcohol DIS-inhibits them so that their REAL personality can come out.
I seldom drink, but if I do imbibe too much, I get happy, sloppy sentimental and want to hug everyone! So, now you know the REAL ME, a sloppy sentimentalist who hides behind a cast iron skillet!!!! ((((hugs)))))
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libelle says:
Dear Kathy, thank you and all the bloggers for very inspiring moments I had each morning this whole week prior to going to work. I read just your blog and the comments and read again a paragraph and the another bit of it and let it sink and do its wonderful work in my mind. “Dolphin” became my mantra!
You all were like my “good shepherd’s words for the day”, and I used it to have good thoughts to think about and getting strength while driving my 30 minutes to work.
It was a tough week, and another awful week lies ahead of me; just me and the bigot colleague who refuses to talk to me to do the work of 5 people.
You gave me the courage and strength to go for MY goals and minding my own business, and validating myself and becoming more and more a dolphin doing “business” and getting out of the way of the colleagues who tried very hard to ignore me and put me down, and seeing it as “Outcome-wise” and not “relationship-wise”, as there is none at all. I just did not pay attention to them all and concentrated on my first and only priority the patients, and had wonderful talks and deep conversations that were greatly appreciated by them and me as well!
Finally I am getting to the long awaited and hard worked for “Swan state”, when all the water pourred upon is just falling off the well oiled feathers, a little shaking and wiggling with the rear feathers, that’s all, and nobody has to notices my struggling UNDER the water but ALL GRACE ABOVE THE WATER.
Witsend: Maybe you have to let go your son completely, as he is a grown-up or allmost now? It is awful having to deal with an almost 17 year old full in puberty and who is trying out the strenghts. He might have the chance to find out for himself what is best for him, and unfortunately there is also a chance of failure in life as well. But after someone turned 16 years even legislation says that you cannot force someone to do ANYTHING unless the person is under incapacitation.
I have at least two men in mind everybody thought they were complete failures at 16 and who had been left to “teach themeselves under the bridges”, including heavy drinking and drugs and so on, and who have become very good people.
One is the husband of my Kindergartenfriend. She has very strict rules in the partnership, right from the beginning, but deep love and respect for the other. He gave up drinking, did ultramarathons instead, is working full time. They have their own house (which is not usual as most people in our country rent flats), two wonderful grown up children with good professions, and now he is an expert ornithologist. He came from a broken home with both parents drinking and dying young of cancer. I must say I admire him even more because he succeeded in life despite a very rough start. My Kindergartenfriend is a wonderful woman, of course, very wise, 6 days my senior
, and when they got married at 19 and had their two children at 6 and 8 months of birth age both in the same calendar year, and both of them were still in apprenticeship, my mother predicted the worst outcome possible! Now they live a very happy life ful of joy, and I visit them frequently! Another wonderful re-discovery after the X!
The other one was a patient of mine who was a very heavy drug addict but gave it up when he met his great love who also set strict boundaries (as my friend does!). We had always very deep wonderful conversations at the consultations. He often went to schools to warn the pupils even to take “soft drugs” as they undermine the self confidence and affect the brain so that he had been in a numb state during all his youth which he regretted deeply. He died of lung cancer with 30 something, and he had his parents bring me a rhinozeros from bronze he made that sits on my desk at home. Vegetarian, quite heavy, she looks kind of sleepy, smiling on her back teeth, but beware disturbing her (I think it is a she-rhino). I will never forget this man, and he is an example to live a life and be able to “complete” it and have a positive impact even when it is not a long life.
When I was little I never understood the tale in the bible of the “lost son”, when father is throwing a party for the returning renegade, and the nice son is envying the brother. I thought for myself that it would not pay off to be too obedient, but I never dared to rebel against the parents.
Maybe you have to let him go and prepare for the party? Just a thought from an elderly single spinster without kids (my sister and my mother always tell me that I do not have A CLUE what it means to raise a child!)
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JaneSmith says:
Thanks Oxy,
Sound advice and support from a truly wonderful and strong woman.
You are so right about people who are mean while drinking and yet seem to restrain their abusiveness while sober. I had the same exact thought that she really doesn’t like and respect me as when she drinks she is MEAN. And you’ve known me long enough to know I don’t exaggerate concerning abusive behavior.
Cutting my losses, grieving a friendship that apparently didn’t even exist except in my mind. Oh well, what’s done is done and can’t be undone.
And like you, when tipsy, I am super affectionate, silly and loud. In a good way. I only partake of booze when I’m in a stellar mood anyway. Who wants to be around belligerent people? I sure don’t.
Again, thank you sweetheart. Love hearing from you and I DO read LF quite often and probably will never stop. That’s just how I roll!
xxooxooxx…
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jillsmith says:
Oxy,
I have not communicated with Lily on this board, but since I have read what she had been going through, I have prayed and put out positive energy for her. Please tell her that I care about her and am praying and cheering for her. I am so sorry she is alone right now without anyone to help her. If I were I rich woman, I would fly to where she is and try to support her. I know what it’s like to have family abandon you while in a hospital and when you need them most. I want to help people in this situation, in the future, when I am stable and able to do so. Anyway, I care about her and her recovery. Please let her know she is not alone. Thanks.
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jillsmith says:
Edit: “If I were a rich woman”, not, “If I were I rich woman”.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Jill,
Thankk you so much for your caring and compassion. I don’t know if you have read any of her blogs or articles, but Aloha Traveler who was one of the earlier posters here on this site is now getting her masters degree to be a social worker and to help others.
Maybe in time you will be able to do something like that. I know that aloha had a very difficult time for several years after her “bad man” but she worked hard and is still working hard to heal and to reach out to others.
Having been through “the fire” I think it makes us more compassionate for others, but yet able to set good boundaries. I too wish I could fly out and rescue Lily, but I can’t, but I CAN support her over the phone! A great BIG cyber hug for you, sweetie!!! and your wonderful baby! (((hug)))
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Layla says:
Thank you again Kathleen for your warmth powerful intellect and for you brave honesty and integrity. It’s a rare and beautiful thing to find someone like you and a few others who have grown so much from personal experience and have the courage to be so open. You are a powerful spirit and I am grateful to have been your avid reader and student for a long time now. I am indebted to you for more than you will ever know and there are who knows how many countless others who you’ve inspired to pick themselves up and get on with life, as messy imperfect and truly beautiful it is and I think that we all are who are on this journey of healing together. No matter what each day brings, I don’t fear it or need anyone to “fix me” anymore, no blame anger or resentment from the lessons I’ve learned so you and other powerful strong women. Hokey cliche or not “happiness” is an inside job, love self affirmations as well; I could recite a lifelong litany of complaints and deep wounds from childhood on, which would be pointless at this point. I have wasted too much time and energy in looking for outside validation and bent myself into a pretzel trying to find and hold onto whatever friend or partner that could finally fill that big gaping hole inside; it was so much easier to blame others, or to have excuses like it was various moves, jobs, schools, yadda yadda…for the fact that I was stuck, but you reminded me that healing this heart and soul and mind and spirit is my responsibility alone. No one else can do the work for me. Thanks again for being here and for helping to relight that fire with your warmth and light. xxoo
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I’ve been gone for a few days dealing with some personal traumas and dramas. I came back to find all these wonderful posts.
JaneSmith, thank you as always for hearing me. You always seem to understand what I’m trying to say. I’ve had some close relationships with active alcoholics and sober ones who haven’t invested energy in recovery (which can be just as bad if not worse). And I’ve changed my evaluation of them from the old “they’re not really like that, except when they’re drinking (or blaming)” to they ARE really like that. Just because they’re not abusive or self-destructive all the time, doesn’t mean we should ultimately judge the quality of the relationship by when they’re “good.” It’s the bad moments that count on my three-strike policy, and it’s the bad moments that determine whether they have earned my trust.
So I’m with you, if you decide to cut her off. Apologies are just words. At this point, she needs to earn her way back into your trust. If it makes you feel better about it, just characterize it as a hiatus until she gets her recreational habits under control. Sometimes that kind of feedback from a friend can be the most loving thing you can do.
libelle, wow, it sounds like you’re putting the principles into practice. Getting a handle on the outcome vs. relationship idea is good in so many ways, as you’ve seen. You can put your caring efforts where you get the best return. You can get strategically clever about pursuing outcomes without getting sidetracked by unproductive dramas. And when you don’t engage, it is so much easier to see that other people are just acting out the dramas in their heads, and it never did have anything to do with you.
I also am really fond of the idea of discretion, which is a another step forward after not engaging. Discretion is sharing information about yourself, based on the level of trust we feel toward a person. This is not swallowing or stuffing your feelings. But rather empowering yourself to start from a blank look and no comments, and then deciding exactly what you want to share.
Since going through my own recovery, I have become much more discrete with my thoughts and feelings, not only with people I don’t know well, but also with friends and family members. I may trust them with some things about me, but not with others. Or I may not be interested in hearing their opinions. Or, particularly in the case of work situations, I may be in the middle of some sort of strategy to get what I want, and it would be counterproductive to share the information before I’m ready.
In other words, this is where the defensive aspect of withholding, begins to evolve into the creative aspect. Discretion allows us to tailor our communications to our level of trust (openness) and our objectives. And it’s a nice side benefits, that people seem to respect other people who don’t blather a lot — that “still waters run deep” thing.
Layla, I think I’m going to print out your post and add it to the ones I have hanging on my wall. I couldn’t say it better.
Love –
Kathy
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JaneSmith says:
Kathleen,
Wanted to let you know I read your response to me. Thank you. I love the support and advice I receive on LF from trusted, experienced and wise members.
I made the decision to no longer share time, energy and company with her. After I told her the reason why I was angry and disappointed, I just became silent to her. She actually had the nerve to tell me to “grow up”, but I continued to simply ignore her. There really isn’t anything more to say to her, is there?
I love and care for her, I do. From a distance. Maybe she will finally realize how hurtful and cruel she can be to those who care for her most, but I’m not involved with her so…not my business.
I’ve learned from my own experiences, from my own healing journey and my innate nature that I don’t necessarily NEED people in my life. I like many people and thoroughly enjoy chatting and hangin with them for brief periods of time, but I’d rather be alone for the most part. I function well and flourish in solitude so I guess it’s what works best for me.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
Hi Kathleen,
I can’t find your response to me about anger, so I’ll put my response here.
Tt would be great if the blog had a way for us to track our responses.
I haven’t read much besides Dharma for quite a while. I have read a number of artciles and self help books a bout anger – truly, nothing REALLY ever took me away with it.
In the last 15 years I think the most ‘sparking’ thing I have read about anger is: anger as a root emotion creates fear in our minds which we then live (a dharma perspective). Thought THIS was interesting. I know what it is like to be around someone who denies, hides or acts out in anger; it makes me fearful.
A looked at this idea – turned it around – it was so shiny and unique – held it in my hand, and then put it in my pocket for use on the day that I am again meditating 7 hours a day or actually find NOT throwing it at someone (myself included) when I am angry because of gross boundary violations to be more useful.
ah, the east west divide.
There has to be more. More than blind faith to any religious system. More heart , more healing, more more MORE. I SHOULD be wildy angry at the injustices I suffer. And I should get cagey like a tiger to deal with them. I should use that energy of anger to GET SMART. And the ONLY way to do that is to NOT be the victim.
I know i am acting it, and about the spath – but i damn well don’t use the word, and for good reason. anger+smart-victim=….whole? Maybe. just maybe.
Thank-you.
you gave me ‘more.’
one step.
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7stepstoheaven says:
I have just finished this thread after spending the whole afternoon reading Kathleen’s article and all the posts from everyone else who have just astounded me with the level of insight and experience here, and it has reminded me of things that I knew once and had forgotten and things I need to know and consider very carefully. I have twisted and warped my mind into one gargantuan Gordian knot to try to think my way out of situations that I should learn to navigate by FEEL. And CHOICE – my own choice.
In many ways, especially regarding my family, and my enmeshed trauma-bound relationship with my mother, I have approached my whole life with an especially fearful outlook. But at the same time I would hide my fear so well because I had been taught never to acknowledge it or punished when I took actions that were in my own self-interest. With my family and relationships I have sacrificed my own self-interest time and time again. I have actually felt guilty or fearful if I made choices that were “selfish” or tried to assert my own opinion.
I have isolated myself because my lack of boundaries has made participating in ordinary life an anxiety-strewn minefield.
My mother’s fury at dealing with any discomfort or distress from me just completely cowed my ability to enforce any kind of boundaries, especially in relationships. It makes her sound like a terrible person, and she could be sometimes, but she could also be very loving and encouraging and I did get praise for accomplishments and was expected to be responsible. The mixed messages just added to my confusion. My mother’s anger was to be avoided at all costs, so I never really learned to ask for help and in some cases just mirrored her own helplessness.
Her approval was like the sunshine, I needed it to breathe.
She always maintained a very competent outward appearance and keeping up those normal appearances at all costs was the top priority in her life and by extension her children’s priority. Even when my father beat her so badly that she couldn’t leave the house – when he hit her face, which shows how little control he had – she never left him. Or more importantly, thought to remove her children from this dangerous situation. More and more I realize how distorted this world view is, and that while she will never change I realize that I can and MUST change and that all the power is within my own grasp. I have to be the one to take it. It is the one thing that is truly mine.
I can feel her pain more than my own sometimes, if that makes any sense! I don’t have children but it has always been like SHE is my child. I don’t exactly know how but all of your stories and insights are giving me a much more detached perspective and that has been impossible for me regarding my family. It is part of my realization that my attempt to control or even influence the actions of anyone besides myself is a fool’s errand.
Even if they are not sociopathic! You can BE a good influence, which is not the same thing at all.
This is growth at warp speed happening to me. This is not really possible in regular therapy because you are still stuck in your own perceptions. You are all helping me very much to pull my own head out of my ass. I remember going to an ACOA group for about six months and I learned so much in that small time, before I had even experienced much conventional therapy.
I never experienced that again until I came here, and the feeling of support and the memories of that came back to me. It’s the VALIDATION of your own feelings that is so powerful and moving and I cannot even begin to tell you how much this means to me. I have always been a searcher but this is something rarely found, at least in my own experience.
You are all jewels in the net, many lights in the darkness, a beautiful analogy someone posted here about the interconnectedness of lives and actions. The reflections and insights are telescoped into infinite beautiful choices that await us. And are beacons in the night to guide us. How did I find you?! Sending good wishes and thoughts to all.
“Time to live so let’s take some chances
Move our bodies with new voices” –
Urban Verbs
(just had my music at random play and this is what struck me)
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one_step_at_a_time says:
7 steps,
you said:
‘I can feel her pain more than my own sometimes, if that makes any sense! I don’t have children but it has always been like SHE is my child.’
uh huh…I know this one. original trauma bond for me is with my Mom.
I don’t remember – have you read the BETRAYAL BOND? I am plugging it ’cause it is my only spath related book reading so far. It’s very good. Showing a fresh perspective on things I have seen before, ‘cept NOTHING LIKE THE BRIGHT LITE OF A SPATH TO AMP THINGS UP A BIT!
jewel one step
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7stepstoheaven says:
Hey onestep – I did see your post mentioning that book and other issues surrounding separation and boundaries – I put it on my amazon list.
What did I give myself for xmas? :
Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft
When Dad Hurts Mom: Helping Your Children Heal the Wounds of Witnessing Abuse by Lundy Bancroft
Healing from Trauma: A Survivor’s Guide to Understanding Your Symptoms and Reclaiming Your Life
The Body Remembers: The Psychophysiology of Trauma and Trauma Treatment
Yes, Santa is letting Amazon drop my books in the mail because he didn’t want to risk actually having to come by my house!!!! He is afraid it might be catching!!!
signed, the chiminy sweep
Weep weep! Weep weep!
Cleaning out those ashes (or ash-holes!) for the new year!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
7 steps – looks like you’ve got your reading cut out for you until valentine’s day
Curious about Healing from Trauma: A Survivor’s Guide to Understanding Your Symptoms and Reclaiming Your Life
that’s okay abut santa – you don’t need a dude who shows up once a year bearing gifts, who then eats and just disappears without a word…
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7stepstoheaven says:
Healing from Trauma – All about PTSD.
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recovering says:
Kathy — Your summarized it well…These hard-earned lessons gained from close encounters with the N/S.:
1) Confidence in our ability (not only to defend ourselves, but to protect ourselves in the first place — we can say no; we don’t have to accept everything on someone else’s terms; we can trust our judgment when we know someone is not willing to see or hear us as individuals)
2) Commitment to our own goals/objectives (without apology or need for approval)
3) Honesty (as opposed to appeasing someone when their values and approaches conflict with our well-being and best interests).
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silvermoon says:
I keep coming back to these articles over and over. They are amazing.
They are replenishment for the weary and treadworn soul.
They help me understand, the encourage me through the process and they speak to what I am going through in a profound way.
Thank you!
Namaste
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libelle says:
Dear Kathy, I reread your article to get strength again as my world seems to crumble beneath my feet.
The colleague with whom I am supposed to start business in about 6 weeks who made me quit my job early and who promised me partnership for almost a year is now backing off and blaming my sister who tried as a very capable lawyer to save the sinking ship in the storm by making a very good compromise (partnership with very easy exit strategies) as “embitterd by men”and telling me to “think for myself” and not to let see a lawyer the contract he made.
Needless to say the pay is much lower as I got previously as “we do not know whether it will work out”. All sounds pretty awful, but in the same way I am also relieved to know him before the contract is signed! Let’s go dolphins! (he lured me in by offering me a nice relationship but it boils down to a for me lousy business).
I talked to a dentist the other week who was very positive about partnership: because as employee the colleague probably has no need to transform it into partnership later! So right: the first button of the jacket has to be put in right, the others will follow.
I am not even angry! It was a good opportunity to leave my old bully-infested place. 10 working days to go to see the ugly faces the last time! Hoorray!! I will live in a very nice apartment in one of the most beautiful places in my country, close family and friends nearby, and I will be able to go for my REAL dreams! Just say no! Thank you all so much, I do feel very strong now!
Do not do anything unconditional! It all can be taken back in no time if necessary!
It was a rant in disguise…
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kim frederick says:
Hi Libelle, It’s nice to see you. I am so happy that your dreams are coming true…you deserve it! make sure you check in and let us know how it’s going……:)
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libelle says:
Dear Kim, thank you for your reply! In reality I am feeling very miserable right now. (kind of : be careful with what you wish: it might come true!)
I know that my sister (who has high N traits; I listed her in the survey, but who is also an excellent lawyer) did a real great job 10 days ago of putting the fair and balanced compromise, I felt very well “represented”; and he did not even listen to her but qualified her below the waistline as “emotional embittered”. And she was not emotional at all, but strictly business and very fair! Obviously he tries to estrange me from her influence (and as I have no clue in business, I have to rely on her some kind)
I am quite disappointed by him, to put it nicely. I will now look for the contract he is sending, showing it of course to a lawyer my sister recommends (she stepped down as I told her about the embitterment). And THEN I will decide whether it will work out for me or not.
Plan B will be something else. Doing well payed replacements, or study arts or psychology (why not?).
Now back to laundry! I must say that I am very glad of having LF as my instant self help life line! Thank you all!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Libelle,
Sounds to me like this new “partner” doesn’t want you to have a good contract, so to me that is a BIG RED FLAG. Attackiing your LAWYER even if she is your sister, is also a big red flag as well.
It sounds like this is a good test of this person’s REAL character and looks to me like HE FLUNKED THE TEST!
Psychopaths and others who are out to use us don’t like it when we protect ourselves legally, and they want us to sign and agree to their terms. BE CAUTIOUS with this man, and especially if he is trying to have a relationship with you as well.
Even among FRIENDS a CONTRACT is a good thing, one that both parties agree to. Sometimes even an N is a great lawyer! LOL (((hugs)))) Be careful!
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kim frederick says:
Libelle, I always thought Art Therapy would be interesting….
Wish I could go back to school. Criminal profiling would be very interesting, too.
I agree with Oxy about your new partner. Be careful.
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libelle says:
Oxy and Kim, thanks you for the validation. It is what I thought, and in hindsight (20/20 correct) I must say I see now the pattern. I was desperate in my old working situation, and with no perspective and out of the blue HE asked ME (how could miserable me deserve THIS??) I was on cloud nine.
He talked about our great future together, the things we have in common, that I was the one he was looking for for years! (no kidding!!) We were making great plans, rent a new place, hiring new staff, looking for floors and tiles and so on- and January 15th he made this horrible offer of being a badly payed employee. And everybody besides my sister said it is a great thing. My sister, my mother and my gut only are with me (my head says maybe it will turn out right, go for the money, rent will be high, but I think I will have to follow the gut, for the first time in my life).
My sister did her best to save both our faces, but he refused.
Why do I fall for people like this? I should know by now!
On the other hand I have now time to think about what I really want! It is so hard to have torn down the old bridges and finding myself in the middle of wilderness with no hint where to go. I will keep you informed! ((Hugs))
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one_step_at_a_time says:
this whole series is good. think this one is salient to a lot of posts in the last few days.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
I have a second interview (my third 2nd round interview in a month) tomorrow.
there are only 2 of us left in this competition.
i am freaking out. need work.
I am quite experienced in terms of the work, but not in the sector. today was horrid hot and muggy – don’t wanna move kinda weather with bad air quality. finished another project, but not so much prep done. will try in the early morning tomorrow.
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erin1972 says:
one_step: I wish you SO much good luck on the interview. Last summer at this time I was out of work too and it was horrible. After the discard in May and I had to quit my police academy, no one was hiring in my current field. I never thought that I would be unable to get a job-ever. It made dealing with my pain SO much worse. Usually when I had a break-up, I would throw myself into work to help distract myself and there was nothing. Last summer was the worst of my life-I spent it in the Dallas area and it was so hot that I thought I was in hell. I sent out like 80 job applications and did that stuff and in-between, I laid on the couch and cried and watched Will and Grace re-runs on DVD. Karen Walker was the only thing that could make me smile. It took me until the end of September to finally find something. It was awful job but at least it was money for awhile. I was able to leave that one in December for the one I have now.
I will be thinking of you tomorrow cuz I remember how that feels! Good Luck and if it’s going to be good for you, then I hope you get it-any $$$ would be good now!!!
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hens says:
onestep I will keep my fingers crossed and be thinking of you tomorrow
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ErinBrock says:
ONE:
Yes….I second the good luck…..here’s some mojo your way for the interview!!
Go getem girl!!!
XXOO
EB
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shabbychic says:
one, best wishes from me too!!!!!
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one_step_at_a_time says:
thanks so much guys.
i constantly feel like my life is one step away from the edge. i feel like this huge shock absorber which can take no more. i am just broken.
recognizing the loss of my 2 best friends in the last week has been very painful.
karen walker was just so awful – made me smile to read that. i have been overeating. it is my last bastion before madness, and is madness in itself.
i have been thinking about the ppath and the things she did to me. well, maybe ‘thinking about’ isn’t accurate – more like ‘have been having flashbacks.’ feeling the malignancy of what she is and did. nothing to be done about her – nothing. my own personal despot. hard to believe such malignancy cannot be excised from the earth. but even if she was, there is another and another and…..
i have to excise her from me. i need to pick up on some things i have dropped re trying to find some help re PTSD – for some reason those attempts have brought referrals that were dead ends.
gotta go down some painkillers and go back to sleep. goodnight.
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Wini says:
one_step_at_a_time, just remember that you (as we all) did the best that we could do when facing/dealing with evil. Most evil folks don’t know they are evil. Of course, some do. We know, however. We discern the difference … aka as if we were on a scale from 1-10. 10 being pure evil.
The best thing to do for PTSD is to get a pet. If you have a pet already, just focus your love and attention on your pet. They love us unconditionally. Being loved unconditionally by a pet is the best medicine and the quickest way to get through the PTSD.
P.S. I’m sorry about yesterday. The global warming issue is the last nonsense that was bantered around at work by the bs artists I worked with. I was surprised and saddened of course to hear that Al Gore was jumping in the lead on this nonsense. I don’t know how old you are, but I’ve been around for over 1/2 century now. When I was a kid, there were summers that were so hot, as a bare footed kid running through the neighborhood I had to jump and leap over a tarred driveway or the road (run as fast I could not to burn my feet)… because of the heat melting the top of the pavement. Most summers were comfortable. Every few years we’d have extreme summer heat (like this summer) and extreme winter storms. Other years, we’d have it mild throughout the year and I live in the North with WET winter months. We have a lot of water in our snowfalls, making it a wet (heavy) snowfall versus a dry/fluffy snowfall.
Again, sorry about jumping on the topic of global warming and upsetting you. It wasn’t my intentions.
Peace.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
hey wini!
thanks. apology absolutely accepted.
i am a half century old, also. god that makes me feel old.
i soooo wish i could get a pet. i have developed extreme allergies, and can’t have animals right now. a cat right now would be so wonderful. I put my last beauty down 9 years ago, and i have been ready for a while to have another cat in my life – but no can do.
i think mine has been told she is evil often enough to have at least had the option to consider the possibility of it. And even though she might not think that creating 20+ characters in each of her scams (LYING) is evil…many do. I swear wini, i’d just like to pound her. but you know what, that IS an appropriate response to people like her. it might be a hollow experience for me, but i doubt it. but i will not do this. i don’t want contact or jail time.
there is a model in Buddhism in which killing one who will kill many is considered an act of compassion – but this wouldn’t really hold water in my case, as this action must be performed without anger. nowhere near that reality yet.
best,
one step
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Wini says:
one_step_at_a_time, so you study Buddhism? Then you know that Spaths live in the dark (evil … lies) and we live in the light (goodness … truth). The darkness is attracted to the light. We are like a light to moths (LOL). “They” want what we have … peace and serenity in our inner selves. That’s the light. That’s why people who are new on this blog think that running into one EVIL person is all that they will deal with in life. Not so, many of those living in darkness will be attracted by our light. Unfortunately, that same light that attracted them also repels them and that’s why they go out of their way to destroy us.
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Wini says:
one_step_at_a_time, does it refer to killing the flesh or killing the spirit? Killing the evil spirit of a person means bringing them into enlightenment.
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one_step_at_a_time says:
wini – killing them in the flesh. to save others. a demonstration of ‘wrathful protection’ within Vajrayana Buddhism.
i think of evil as the extreme disconnection from what is good. but they have no chance to change what they are fundamentally. there in lays the rub. now, the Buddhists would also say that no absolute evil exists – as it would implode. I haven’t had a chance to talk to my teacher about the ppath. i know part of his response will be about the Karma they are accruing, and what sort of lives it will give them, and that they will probably fall into the ‘lesser realms’ (their is a belief that only humans have the consciousness to reach enlightenment – those of us who have lived with cats see the folly in this idea
) and be mired there for kalpas (a stretch of time too vast to comprehend). As being human is supposed to be a result of ‘good karma’ then the ppaths have done some things ‘right’ in past lives. this is somehow hard to imagine. What must one have had to do to have human consciousness without conscience? and how can they do anything right in this life?
(all Karma needs to be cut, good or bad – it’s is what hurls us from life to life. when all karma is cut then only awareness itself is left. aka enlightenment)
Karma is considered only as the law of cause and affect. There is no morality involved in it. It’s like the law of gravity – drop the apple and it falls. Karma is action – either mental or physical, that once repeated hardens into habit, which becomes our personalities….the cycle is repeated and beings are propelled from life to life on the power of this hardened self perception, aka ego. The potency of Karma is predicated on factors; such as, wanting to do the thing, doing the thing, being happy/ satisfied it’s done. How does this relate to ppaths? If they don’t work the way we do, then how potent is the affect of their negative deeds?
I need to do some reading when I can, and talk to my teacher. I don’t know when i will see him again. He is thousands of miles away, and i don’t send him emails – well, except when my mom was having surgery – and, oh yah when the fake @#$%^&* spath fake died, and had fake surgery…. I asked my teacher to do ‘phowa’ for the spath – a conscious dying practice done at death – did it for her myself too. I didn’t feel her energy move away – guess that was BECAUSE SHE WASN’T DEAD. I am a rank amateur at phowa – i have received the teachings a few times and practiced them for a few people who have died; but my teacher has literally done thousands of phowas for people. i am left wondering how that might have effed up the spath’s energy. and what of the person who’s picture she stole to represent her? I am so embarrassed to tell my lama that i wasted his precious time doing a phowa for a live person. i am not concerned for how it may have affected him – he is a big boy, but i wonder how odd he found the experience. that lying sack of shit – the ppath – infiltrated my life in the most intimate ways. i did phowa for her…..sigh. what a heap of crap.
sorry if some of this is unclear. it’s the middle of the night and i am a bit unfocused. should have taken the painkillers earlier.
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Wini says:
One Step, In Christianity, God destroyed the first earth age due to Lucifer’s pride … wanting to be better or higher than God. Lucifer was a cherubim who was God’s favorite. He sat on the right side of God, guarding God’s throne of compassion (or charity). Isn’t that ironic? Long story short … Lucifer got a big ego (pride) and got 1/3 of the angels of God’s to follow him and turn away from God. God being a jealous God, was so hurt over this betrayal that he destroyed the first inhabitants of the earth … when the dinosaurs walked the earth was when the cherubims, angels, arch angels etc. all walked the earth in spiritual form, not physical. Then God created the earth (1,000 years of man is 1 day of God’s) again (this 2nd earth age that we live in) … and all folks are born of water (meaning, born through women … via childbirth). Funny, that’s why some Christians call themselves Born Again Christians.
Back to the history (His story) of man. We live in the 2nd earth age. There will be a 3rd earth age when Jesus comes back to earth … and destroys Satan (aka Lucifer) and all those that worship/follow him including having a big ego like Lucifer … it goes with the territory. God has always given us free will to choose to follow him or not. Everyone has 2 choices, follow Him (truth, peace, harmony, love, being humble etc. everything righteous) or follow Satan (lies, evil, pain, hurt, deceit, big ego blocking out reality of how to live … everything negative and unrighteous). Righteous means what is true. Follow Jesus and your soul lives. Follow Satan (who is death) and your soul dies. As Christians, we are to pray for those that follow Satan so they don’t go down through eternity in the fire of the eternal flames which kills the soul … poof, gone forever.
As Christians, it’s not about us. It’s always about Jesus and planting seeds of His truth to others so they follow Him and not Satan.
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geminigirl says:
Wini, I am a Christian and I believe what you say, but I still worry about my two spath daughters ending up in Hell. Even tho I hada dream 13 years ago that they would be saved “at last” Do you think this means “as a brand from the burning, ie, by the skin of their teeth?Even to I have no contact with either of them now, and I cant stand them as human beings, they are still my flesh and blood and I still worry about them.
Love, Gem.
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