After the sociopath is gone: No Contact begins in my head
He was arrested at 9:14 am on May 21, 2003. It was a sunny, blue sky morning. The birds were fluttering and twittering in the trees. The river flowed lazily by, meandering through the forest, dappled with sunlight, sparkling, clear.
We were in hiding. Had been since February 26 when we’d fled the city we lived in 1,000 miles away, heading west, heading to the US, he’d said. “I’ve got money there,” he insisted. “I’ll just leave this mess to my lawyers to fix. No sense hanging around waiting for them to get it cleared up. I’ll let you go once I’m out of the country,” he promised.
Like all his promises, like everything he’d ever said and done, it was all a lie.
On that morning in May, the lies fell apart and he was exposed. Two police officers walked in and took him away. “Are you on drugs?” one of them asked me as I sat, rocking back and forth, back and forth in a chair watching the scene unfold, a quiet, low keen seeping from my mouth. I was catatonic. I was not on drugs.
They took him away and I sat surveying the mess around me, trying to make sense of the mess of my life.
I hadn’t heard of No Contact with the abuser, but I knew after months of no contact with family and friends, I had to make contact with someone beyond the narrow confines of my world with him. He was gone. I had to reach out for help.
I called my sister who lived an hour away from where we had been in hiding. She didn’t ask questions. She didn’t yell or scream at me. She came and got me.
No Contact was the only possibility. He didn’t have my sister’s number and it was unlisted. He did keep calling the couple who owned the cabin where we’d been staying. They called my sister, she advised them not to give him my number. He called my mother. She hung up on him, even though she felt it was rude. “He’s the man who almost killed your daughter,” I told her. “It is not rude to hang up on him. It’s vital to my well-being.”
I didn’t want to think about him but at times, my mind betrayed me. I’d be walking down a street and hear a cell phone ringing and it would be his ring. My mind would leap to thoughts of him. What was he doing? What was he saying? What was he telling people about me?
I posted No Trespassing signs in my mind. When thoughts of him intruded, I’d mentally hold up a sign and send the thoughts back to where they’d come from, my fear, my shame, my guilt.
I knew that one day I’d have to go through the thoughts of him and examine them, but for now, I had to give myself time to grow stronger. For now, it didn’t matter that I had to rid myself of his presence in my mind. That would come later. At first, what mattered most was that I build emotional strength so that I could eventually deal with thinking about him without making myself sick.
In those first minutes and hours and days weeks and months away from him I focused my thinking on me. On what had happened inside of me. On what I had to do to become healthy again.
The police asked me for a statement about anything I knew about his illegal activities. I had to do the right thing to show myself, remind myself; I was capable of doing ‘the right thing’.
I wrote it down. It hurt. I was scared. What would he do when he found out I had ‘told’ on him?
I couldn’t let my mind go there. The monster of him in my head was bigger than the reality of him, out there. Out there he was in jail. I had to escape the prison of my mind trapped in thinking of him. I held up my No Trespassing sign.
Focus on doing the right thing, I told myself.
I kept writing.
To remind myself that I was so much more than that five year relationship, that my life was made up of so many other important things than just ‘him’, I made a list of things I’d done in my life that I was proud of. Being a mother topped my list. “What kind of mother are you really”, the voice of self-denigration whispered. “You deserted your children.”
I posted STOP signs in my head. Whenever self-doubt, negative self-talk invaded, I held up my STOP sign and consciously reframed the negative into more loving words. “I am a courageous woman. Yes, I did something I never imagined I would ever do as a mother. I was very, very sick. And now, the poison is gone and I am healing. I can make amends. I am reclaiming my life. I am courageous and growing stronger every day.”
I kept adding to my list of things I’d done that I was proud of. In Grade five I raised $122.00 for a charity by walking 21 miles. I was an honor student. Got a scholarship. I ran the marathon. Wrote a play with a group of street teens and produced it.
My list reminded me that I was capable of living in the world beyond the narrow corridor of his abuse. It reminded me that I was a competent, caring human being.
At first, I wanted to cry and cry and cry. At first, I did. And then I knew I had to build emotional muscle, to build my willpower. I gave myself a time limit for crying. It began with ten minutes on the hour, every hour. That was when I let myself cry. The other fifty minutes I had to do at least one constructive thing (Work on my resume. Phone about a job interview. Take a walk.) to take me one step further on my healing path. The ten minutes every hour became eight and then five and then only every two, then three, then four hours. Eventually, as I kept doing more and more things to take me on the healing path, I forgot to cry.
At first, I wanted to tell everyone my story. Talk about what he had done. How hurt I’d been. How confused and scared and lonely. At first, I thought everyone knew what I’d been through just by looking at me. Couldn’t they see the scars? Couldn’t they see my pain? I couldn’t understand how the world could be so normal. I needed to embrace its normalcy. I enforced No Contact in my speech. I could not talk of him. I could not tell the story again and again. The only time I had permission to talk about him and what had happened was when I went to an Alanon or Co-Dependents Anonymous meeting. There, with the safety of the 12-steps empowering me, I could speak up and give voice to my pain, my fear and my hope.
The greatest danger wasn’t contacting him. He was in jail. My greatest danger lay in thinking about him. In remembering those gentle moments where I had felt his ‘love’ embrace me.
“It was never love,” I reminded myself. “Love doesn’t almost kill you.”
I kept working at No Contact in my mind. Good times or bad, thinking of him wasn’t healthy for me. I kept my No Trespassing signs posted. My STOP sign handy. Over time, it became easier. A cell phone ring wouldn’t startle me. My body wouldn’t jerk suddenly at the sound of a car backfiring, or a door slamming. I wouldn’t cry at every turn. Sit in silence immersed in sadness. Thoughts of suicide were arrested before they even saw the STOP sign in my mind. I was building my will to survive. My will to rejoice in living life fully every day.
In time, it became easier to live without the fear I would always be the abused woman I had become. In time, it became easier to live with the possibility of life beyond his abuse, beyond the lies he’d told me about who I was, what I could do, where I could go and who I could never be. It became easier to believe in me. It became easier to talk, about him, about what had happened, about what I’d done to betray myself and those I loved without falling into despair. It became easier to love myself, not as an abused woman, but as a woman who had the courage to face her fears, to turn up for herself and love herself, exactly the way she was. A woman capable and confident enough to let go of abuse and claim her right to live freely in her own skin.
I was an abused woman. Today, I continue to grow and heal, to love myself for all I’m worth and to give myself the space and time to let feelings flow through me without having to stop them.
Today, I give myself the grace of loving myself enough to know, I am okay. The things I did that hurt those I love, and me, are nothing compared to the things I do today to create a beautiful life all around me. I am not measured against what happened back then, my value is in what I do today to make a difference, in my life and the world around me.
Today, he was just a moment in time, a small segment of my life. He has no value in my life today. My value is in how I live, what I do, say, how I think and look at the world through eyes of love. Today, my value is in me.
written by M.L. Gallagher • Permalink •
ANewLily says:
Dear Louise,
Thank you for this article and its inspiring message of your life and strong, courageous reaction to the abuse.
I have a lot of questions, particularly about your children, but those can wait. I want to tell my recent “story” and how your timely articles helped me gain NEEDED clarify!
Last week I was diagnosed with celiac disease (severe) and with a large malignant tumor in my transverse colon. I learned this news with no upset. I know my serenity was due to the knowledge of facing and surviving other life-treatening challenges, including my spouse of 46.5 years trying to kill me 7 years ago.
I know this serenity is real because I just talked to a cancer survivor at the drug store and told her my news. She commented on how serene I was facing this challenge — so even others can see it.
I’m not even sure I can describe the horrid feelings I have experienced since I told DD#2 (age 51) the news, asking her not to tell her father because I remain afraid of him. At first, she insisted on coming out (1800 miles) to be with me. Somehow, I felt “good” about this desire because until my sister (her aunt) died a little over a month ago, she hadn’t even talked to me for SIX years.
Then, last night, she said she probably wouldn’t come because she “had work to do.” It reminded me of so many instances when I was sick and that was her father’s response for not “being there” for me that I was thrown into severe confusion.
I had already been concerned about seeing her because how when I was sick (meaning after the surgery) could I ever handle not talking about the “past”??
This morning when I awoke I “Knew” I didn’t want her to come. But, how can I tell her without hurting her feelings?
After reading your article, I realize that “hurting her feelings” is NOT my job. I and my feelings are what is important now.
Making decisions so as not to “hurt others’ feelings” (including through my long “marriage”) was one of my biggest mistakes!!
It’s hard to explain how your article helped me make another decision — I will not even tell our oldest daughter (age 55) and our only son (age 42).
Even as I left the drug store (and before your article) it became clear to me that I “owe” them nothing. Their decisions to shun me these past six-seven years (BECAUSE I left their father) are the basis of these consequences of not being informed.
The greater part of the story is that I have had serious health challenges ever since I left in Jan 2002 and faced ALL of them alone (with God ever present) but essentially no communication with them. When I left, my internist had told me that the 10 months of sickness before I left was due to the TOXIC stress of my abusive “marriage” and I should leave or be dead within the year. I told my S?P:N this news and he knocked me unconsious and within days I was GONE.
Of course, he told them that I was lying and that he had never abused me in any way. It never occurred to me that our children could believe HIS lies for six long years — except that all four of them live with their families in the same communicaty. (Our son moved 35 miles away a year ago). I became very convinced he would hurt them if they changed their allegiance so I have just endured their sunning — with intense grief — and more health problmes due to the stress of it all.
I’m rambling. I hope this makes sense. But my point is that after reading your article, I AM going to focus JUST on myself.
I may accept DD#3’s (age 45) offer to come. She has communicated with me weekly (and daily during my March 09 hospitalization) and is an experienced surgical nurse — who had shown compassion that her siblings have not. But, I’ll see what transpires with her yet before making a firm decision.
The bottom line is that I have cared for myself (with God’s guicance) these past years just tine. I can “do this” alone, too.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 3:30pm
M.L. Gallagher says:
Dearest Lily — thank you. If you could see me and hear me, you would know I am standing up, applauding you and your courage.
Sometime ago I read something very powerful — I trust myself to be responsible for my own happiness. And, I trust others to be responsible for theirs.
Your realization that you are not responsible for how your daughter will accept, or not, your decision, is empowering and inspiring.
I am sorry to hear of your sickness. I will put you in my prayers and if you are looking for a community to support you and a place to share your journey, http://www.caringbridge.org is a wonderful place — I have a woman friend who was recently diagnosed with cancer. She lives on the other side of the country, but, through Caring Bridge, I follow her journey and can post notes of strength, encouragement and hope.
Lily, you have given me a wonderful gift today. I love it when people — get it — when they stand up and say, I’m responsible for me and I’m okay with that, in fact, whatever life throws at me, I’m okay taking good care of me.
And don’t forget, you are not alone. There are thousands of women standing behind you, around you, holding out their arms, willing to support you. In Laura Day’s, “The Circle — How the power of a single wish can change your life” she talks about how we stand together in support and strength. Her book is well worth the read — and doing the exercises has great power.
This place is just one such perfect example of where a circle is formed and we stand together to create a space for healing to happen.
And I know, in what you wrote, you will take good, loving care of yourself.
Shine on,
Louise
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 4:00pm
skylar says:
Louise, thank you for your story.
It is a reminder for me that the past was just a fantasy he painted and I believed. Nothing was real, yet it could have killed me. How strange is that?
Lily,
I’ve been missing you and wondered where you were. I also have celiac disease – well, I’m not positive because I’ve never been tested, it may just be gluten intolerance. Either way, I have been off gluten since the early 1990’s. It seems difficult at first but it is actually very liberating too. And of course my health improved dramatically when I took control of my diet.
If you, at any time, need to talk about the gluten free lifestyle, I would be more than happy to share what I know and what I do.
Much love and hugs to you.
Skylar
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 4:34pm
ThornBud says:
Lily,
i dunno words i could posibly tell u. me too, i wish if u could see me now, just one eyes sight could say more than any word. what i wanted to write here and now, and for the future unhappy members is:
No one will die before his moment comes. We can not change it. We can not change what was writen to be, BUT we can change our lifes! It is not important how long we are gonna live, BUT IT IS IMPORTANT – HOW. And You, u chosed honourable life, being true to urself, honest with urself, in peace with urself. No one can be honest with others, no one can be respected from others, no one can be loved by others, if he is not all of it, at the first place, with ownself.
Just give me ur hand, dear. We can go through…in fact, WE ARE GOING THROUGH.
Take good care of urself, for urself and for all the ppl who trust u and love u.
Huggs
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 4:51pm
ThornBud says:
Louise, thank u for posting this story.
Me too, i used to be writer. Besides it, i used to be scientist, and alot of it. He devaluated me in my own eyes, killed all my skils and will to live. At the moment.
But not anymore.
Nomatter of how do i feel now, there are things i left behind, there will always be monuments we left,to remind someone on our posibilities, actions, deeds.
Behind US will stay something good. Behind them will stay nothing but dirt on the road. And rains will wash it, washing every sign they ever existed.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 5:10pm
witsend says:
Dear ANewLily,
I am so sorry to hear of your health problems.
And I am humbled by your acceptance and serenity. You are one very emotionally strong lady.
I have come to believe the hardest things that we do in life…..We do alone. I never would have beieved this in my youth but I have experienced it in my own life many times.
The really “hard” stuff you do on your own.
BUT alone doesn’t have to mean without support! YOU might have to “fight” your illness (alone) as no one can do that for you, but it certainly might be easier for you if your daughter (the caring one) can be by your side. And if she is a nurse that is an added plus….
You are really awesome Lily…..It never ceases to amaze me how strong the human spirit can be.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 6:04pm
ANewLily says:
Louise, I hadn’t anticipated your reaction of approval of my newly made decision regarding my family who had shanned me for years! I was overwhelmed and gratified by the visual of you jumping up and down with approval.
I have never been “into” what people think of me so I just posted my story without expectation. I realize that sometimes it is really GOOD to know when people approve of you. I’ll change my mindset!
Thanks for the link to CaringBridge. I believe I was supporting the family who started it when their infant was very sick and then didn’t survive. Terrible — but I can’t remember their names — but haven’t forgotten them.
Skylar, I’ll remember your offer to share dietary info about a gluten-free diet — but not right away (I don’t think) All day I’ve been on the phone obtaining all kinds of info regarding the upcoming surgery (sept 29) and am totally worn out with “Your call is important to us..” and then waiting to speak to someone for 20 or more minutes!
Maybe I can post to Donna and ask her to give you my email address?
Thornbird, I totally identified with you about how our “bad men” try to degrade our talents and accomplishments. But, you are right that what our real accomplishments are will be lasting after we’re gone.
theirs won’t!! (BTW, I’m not afraid to die. I know where I will spend eternity.)
Witend, I never fail to pray for you about your troubles. You have a strong spirit, too! You are so correct about all of us having to do the really “hard” stuff alone from being born to passing out of this life into the next. We never dreamt that we wouldn’t have a life partner to share the burdens of life. dod we? but it wasn’t meant to be. For me, I am VERY glad I escaped. My days alone are so much better — even with everyday challenges! I know my Ex S/P/N wouldn’t be supportive in any way during this current health crisis so I am SO glad he isn’t anywhere around — even if occasionally his “empty suit” stuff tries to nterfere periodically in attempts to bring me down! He hasn’t succeeded yet — and he won’t!
Note: I already sent an email to DD#2 that I’d rather that she didn’t rearrange her schedule to come out here. I feel peaceful about it. Her reaction will be hers all by herself. (But, I’ll never stop loving her.)
It isn’t the first time I’ve thought it but today more than most I’m so SORRY that I didn’t know what I know now and had never accepted a second date with him. I gave my children the WRONG father. I had no idea that my decision would influence my children so much. But, life doesn’t have a rewind button — so we press on.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 7:04pm
skylar says:
Lily, whenever you are ready you may have my email address so we can discuss eating a gf diet. It can be as simple as eating only foods whose ENTIRE origin is recognizable: meat, fruit, vegetables, corn and rice. No additives, no fillers. Spices are used but only the ones I know for sure don’t use flour as an anti-caking agent.
I also gave up sugar and use only agave syrup. Eating this way is very easy. But some people don’t want to give up baked goods, so there are lots of cookbooks and baking books for making “fake” bread and “fake” anything that usually calls for wheat. I am adept at these recipes but no longer bother. I just don’t need that type of food very often.
You are so right that there is no rewind button. Most of us would have pressed it, but since we can’t we need to ask ourselves what kind of lemonade can I make with these lemons I’ve been handed? Because thats all we got from the P’s – lemons.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 8:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Louise,
As always, your posts and articles “hit home” and NC is definitely one of those things that is ESSENTIAL to healing.
EVen if someone shares parenting with a psychopath in which there is no way to totally go PHYSICAL NC, the EMOTIONAL NC is so important. To keep them OUT OF OUR HEADS & HEARTS is so important.
Thank you for a wonderful article.
For me physical NC was so much easier than EMOTIONAL NC, but that coming now, first with some of the psychopaths, and now with the rest.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 9:18pm
Easy says:
I could not tell the story again and again.
This is a individual time thing for each of us. At some point you will stop telling your personal story and you will not think of him every day. Because Life does not depend on him! Your life depends on you!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:05pm
justabouthealed says:
Thank you for the wonderful post. I wish I had read it about two years ago! I think you made a wise decision about putting off thinking about him at all until you were stronger. Very wise. That may be what bothers me about advise to “heal” by working through past traumas, etc. That is all fine, perhaps, but first…get strong and the best way is NC. I love your stop signs and no trespassing signs. PERFECT! My “wallpaper” on my computer is a picture of barbed wire stretched out, to remind myself to have firm boundaries….and if someone pushes against them and gets hurt…that is their problem. The barbed wire is right there in plain sight!
Wonderful, wonderful post.
And I’m so sorry for what every one is having to deal with. I’m still dealing with not being able to eat solid foods, started when the P started, and I’m still hopeful I will be able to eat again.Hugs to us all!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:16pm
eyeswideshut says:
Whenever, anytime, I feel downtrodden in the journey towards standing up for myself, taking care of myself, being alone, there is always courage to be found here. A wonderful post, and good advice. I am just now getting beyond saying “what an a–hole” outloud several times a day, and it has been almost two years.
A New Lily, thank you for sharing and know you have our “virtual” and real support. I so hope your children come round in their thinking, and that it will never be too late for you to forgive them being taken in by the P. I hope none of them have the evil gene and are simply brainwashed.
For what it is worth, my ex P contributed to the breakdown in my relationship with my daughter from a prior marriage, and we were very testy- sometimes incommunicado for 17 years. We now talk several times a week and are supportive and loving towards each other.
I so so hope that your children will see beyond whatever smoke and mirrors your ex is flashing for them and you will have a chance to reunite, in peace and happiness. And I so respect your decision to let it not matter. That you are focused on yourself and healing. That setting boundaries, even to a loved one, is a basis and foundation for an honest relationship.
And isn’t it wonderful how right it feels..how uncomplicated..when we act in complete honesty, without conflict with our own needs… because as said earlier in the thread, all the really hard stuff we do alone.
Peace and love,
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 11:31pm
henry says:
M.L.Galllagher This is a wonderful article – I read every word intently – thanks.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 12:58am
Vision says:
Dear Louise,
Although my situation (s) in my life with SP’s have not been as horrible as yours and others, your experiences I could identify with and I felt your emotions and your fight at the NC…..
I have also used the trick of a no trespassing sign in my past to stop me from thinking thoughts that were negative and should have been forgotten…
I picture a strong little old woman, with an apron, a long dress and granny glasses, rocking in a rocking chair which is in front of a room and she is holding a broom. When my mind wandered to the “negative thoughts” she was up and sweeping me away from the door with the broom. She then tells me that “it will be okay, honey, but there ain’t no how no way you’ll be able to think about that today, not with me here..”
A little wacky I suppose, but it sure works. Like your stop signs.
You are very strong and your article shows how NC is the first step to healing……Thanks you for the encouragement and the enlightenment….
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 10:19am
OxDrover says:
Dear Vision,
That little old lady is ME, but instead of a broom, I have a cast iron skillet and if you get down on yourself, I “boink” you on the head. Laugh! Good idea!!!!
Dear Eyes,
Glad to see you are still lurking here. have missed you!!!! Stay around, we need your posts!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 10:34am
Vision says:
Dear OxDrover,
LOL….That is funny!!……Hey, that is right. I remember in some of your posts you boinking us upside the head!! I think I will change from a broom to iron skillet and a clunk on the head, since it takes good whack for me to get it through my thicker skull…..In the meantime, could you cook up some fried green tomatoes? …..I just love them…..I’ll bring the fried chicken…..
Thanks and now I will have more power to my guardian….!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 5:42pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Vision,
‘
Be glad to cook the fried green tomatoes how about some friend squash, corn bread, friend okra, and a bit of venison stew? I’m in a snit today cause when I went to grind some corn meal my electric grinder motor fried and so i am short on corn meal, but if you come, I will use what I have to make you supper!
Actually, I DO cook mostly in cast iron, it is the original NON-STICK COOKWARE and it never wears out or gets dents. “Threatening” my sons with a “cast iron attitude adjustment” has always been a family joke around here! I’m not even sure when it started, it just “always has been’ one of those family jokes. I know on Love Fraud it started with me boinking Henry for being so DOWN ON HIMSELF and it sort of “grew” from there as “love taps” LOL With people “borrowing” my cyber-castiron skillet” if I wasn’t around.
My husband used to complain that he had never had ALL the fried green tomatoes he wanted so one day I fried a turkey platter full and he ate those, and I did another turkey platter full and he ate THOSE and finally left one on the platter, so I told him “don’t EVER say you never had enough again!” My thing is watermelon and corn on the cob. I can make a PIG out of myself on either of those things but they must be fresh and home grown!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 6:10pm
Vision says:
Dear OxDrover,
Mmmmm…..sounds so delicious….I love those fried green tomatoes, corn on the cob too with lots of butter and watermelon! We sure would pig out!!…..I gained 5 pounds eating corn on the cob one season….I am going to cook up some this on the weekend, going to the country and find some green tomatoes. That was good of you, cooking all those fried green tomatoes for your husband, I could eat at least a platter myself!
I love cast iron too….it even puts good iron into the food….
Love the “cyber skillet” love taps and welcome them when needed!!
Drooling now…..
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 8:20pm
OxDrover says:
Comfort food!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 9:01pm
Easy says:
Who runs The US Govt?
Connections And Then Some
2003-03-14, Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..A25…
The Carlyle Group [is] an investment house famous as one of the most well-connected companies anywhere. Former president George H.W. Bush is a Carlyle adviser. Former British prime minister John Major heads its European arm. Former secretary of state James Baker is senior counselor, former White House budget chief Richard Darman is a partner, former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt is senior adviser — the list goes on. Those associations have brought Carlyle enormous success. The Washington-based merchant bank controls nearly $14 billion in investments, making it the largest private equity manager in the world. It buys and sells whole companies the way some firms trade shares of stock. But the connections also have cost Carlyle. It has developed a reputation as the CIA of the business world — omnipresent, powerful, a little sinister. Media outlets from the Village Voice to BusinessWeek have depicted Carlyle as manipulating the levers of government from shadowy back rooms. Congresswoman Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.) even suggested that Carlyle’s and Bush’s ties to the Middle East made them somehow complicitous in the Sept. 11 terror attacks. It didn’t help that as the World Trade Center burned on Sept. 11, 2001, the news interrupted a Carlyle business conference at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel here attended by a brother of Osama bin Laden. Former president Bush, a fellow investor, had been with him at the conference the previous day. Bush[’s] primary function is to give speeches for Carlyle that attract wealthy foreigners in places where the former president is especially revered, such as Asia. The company has rewarded its faithful with a 36 percent average annual rate of return.
Note: If the above link fails, click here. To understand the amazingly powerful role of this low-profile, yet extremely wealthy and influential group, click here to view free a 48-minute documentary shown on Dutch national TV which clearly depicts the depths of corruption and deceit at the highest levels of government. You will be thankful that you watched this highly educational film.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 10:18pm
eyeswideshut says:
Dear Easy, Yup…the P’s are everywhere. And coporations are modeled on sociopathic behaivior- they meet all 13 of Dr. Hare’s list. Yet 80% of our economic activity comes from small and medium sized businesses. As we speak Wall St. is bundling a new speculative product (life insurance policies) that profit from people dying early. Lovely. ( I could dig for the link if anyone cares). Oh…then there is the credible research that swine flu was made in a lab, and just go ahead and google “forced vaccinations” if you are not in the mood for sleeping anytime soon. Very profitable. 4 billion doses being ordered. Do the math. Credible research also supports the notion that vaccines accelerate the mutation and severity of viruses, and do very little to prevent the disease itself. Rant rant rant etc.
Not to be too off topic or cynical, gang, but why does “chit” float??? Why do we have all these mysoginistic power hungry, without consience P’s running things…aghhhhhh.
Oxy, maybe we need hundreds of thousands of skillets to go on a good march with.
And Oxy, thanks for the kind words. I was miraculously able to get a job recently ( I am 58 and have been self employed for decades, everyone said it could not be done) and otherwise crazy busy, (had to sell the farm and move etc…thank you exP).
Then to top it all off, a judge just rescinded my brilliant court order, that took 18 months and lots of $$ I could not afford to spend to get. Arrrrgh. Anyhow, we will apeal if necessary, as we followed protocol etc, and the judge has tossed the court order on a technicality/ Harrummmph.
Weird thiing tho? I am no longer afraid. I will cope. I will be in it for the long haul and wear the bastard down. Represent myself. My ex P appears to be seriously off his game. They say they go downhill with age, and I think he is sort of losing touch with his many fake realities. Scary, but just. IMHO.
I will take my cue from “our” Erin Brockovitch and stay calm and be informed. My troubles are nothing compared to what some of you have indured, survived and thrived.
Peace,
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 11:12pm
geminigirl says:
re comfort food, I did this dish on the weekend my new “kids” came for lunch, and they loved it! As Muslims theyr not meant to eat pork, but their parents told them, eat everything, do everything, experience everything! Pretty good advice! here is the recipe, and its very cheap/ You buy about a kilo, to kilo and a half. of belly pork,{depending on how many people you have invited!} you know the strips of pork meat interlarded with fat, and the occasional tiny bones. Lay them flat in a large oven dish, I use a large oblong roaster dish. Then you marinade them overnight with this mixture.
Fresh orange juice,
balsamic vinegar,
Honey,
Plum sauce,
Soy sauce,
sweet chilli sauce
Dijon Mustard.
a bit of red wine to keep it moist.
I dont usually measure but roughly equal amounts of each one.except the mustard, around 1 tablespoon of that.
Cover tightly with foil, and bake for 2 hours in a medium hot oven, {I usually bake for one hour on high, then turn down for the last hour. Serve with a large green salad, baked potatoes, or basmati rice..It is sticky, unctuous, delectable yummy, and gorgeous, and not expensive!Yum!! geminigirlXX
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 1:34am
Easy says:
Eyes wide open
deception & distraction where these not what our parasitic encounters used on us?
Thanks ! It’s really tireing to keep trying to get some people to understand or comprehend!
I am sure I am mentaly disorderd (smile)
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 6:25am
kim frederick says:
Vision and Oxy, can I top it off with some blackberry cobbler?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 8:12am
eyeswideshut says:
Easy, Have you watched the “Corporation”? I think you might enjoy. Very importent documentary. Available on line at Information Clearing House.com.(left side of page under videos)
Bottom line, if being a P is the mask of sanity, we are living in an asylum with the patients in charge. And yes, those that question are being called “crazy”.
Just like our ex P’s projected.
And to the rest of you enjoying you virtual meal, I can virtually taste it. : )
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 8:56am
Sarasims says:
I really enjoyed the article and found it to have some great recommendations with STOP signs and NO TRESPASSING!
It’s been 9 months since the true “emotional” connection to my SP ended. I guess that’s the appropriate term. It’s 9 months ago that our relationship ended – the one I “thought” existed. Since then our contact has been on/off and very “hi/low” oriented….which many of you have read and commented on. He comes and goes and plays mind games with me then kicks me in the stomach telling me I’m crazy. Our last contact was about 1 month ago when he once again told me he couldn’t live without me that he was “BACK” and would never hurt me again. Funny – 1 week later he disappeared and yelled at me to “LEAVE HIM THE F**K ALONE”….honestly OMG! What a freak I now see!
I’ve been here at LF for about a week and the sense of support I feel from all of your presence on this site is incredible. Yesterday and days before I felt so strong – so determined. Today I don’t. When does the desire to hear from his go away? When does NC become easier? When do your head and heart finally decide to join forces? For the things that SP do to us – does anyone out there feel like they just want to “GET EVEN”….wreck havoc on their already SCREWED up life? Sometime that urge is strong! And I know it’s not right to lower myself to “their” level but when will they ever pay for the things they do to one person after the other? It’s just so unfair!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 8:56am
skylar says:
Sarasims,
I wish I could tell you when your emotions will stop dwelling on him. It’s been since May that I left and 95% of my thoughts pertain to him still. If you’ve read my posts, you will know I have a complete understanding of the uselessness of my thought behavior, but I’m still stuck. Part of the reason is because I still have other P’s to deal with, my P parents and brother and sister and the P trojan horse, even the P neighbors that he had gang up against me for no reason.
I’m pretty sure his argument to them was that I was arrogant and thought I was a saint for volunteering to do all the work for the community water association.
I’m going to acupuncture today, I’ll let you know if it helps.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 9:56am
skylar says:
Sarasims,
Yes I also think about getting even, but not in the way you think. The ultimate getting even would simply be to tell him what he is. He doesn’t know. He knows that he is different and he wants to know why, I can tell by some things that he said in the past. He thinks that the devil has him possessed. or that he has neandertal DNA (he looks like a neandertal with that big brow ridge).
What he really is, is a case of emotionally arrested development, still using the survival strategy of an infant to survive as an adult. The only evil here is the evil he is doing to his soul as it twists and warps, trying to grow but not being allowed to expand outside the same old, same old behavior of lies and manipulation.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 10:02am
kim frederick says:
Sarasims, I used to want him to go to jail. I wanted it so bad, but tried really hard to not wish bad on him. Instead I prayed for God’s will and left it at that. He spent the next eight out of twelve months in jail, and it had asbsolutly nothing to do with me. Eventually, they hang themselves, and even if they don’t, the only thing you can do is continue to work on yourself.
treat the whole process like an addiction. Look into Love addicts anonomous. Work the twelve steps and keep coming here. Lots of help and guidance to be gained. The heartache does go away. I promise. That is, if you stay NC.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 10:28am
luv716 says:
Sarasims the answer to you question: does anyone out there feel like they just want to “GET EVEN”….wreck havoc on their already SCREWED up life? TOTALLY! that thought don’t seem to leave my mind.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 2:03pm
Sarasims says:
Skylar, sounds like you and I are in the same position. I can relate to the 95% of the time. Just wondering, remember thinking, reliving. And my heart goes out to you having to deal with other Ps like you do. It can only make your situation that much more difficult. For me, he is a first and a REAL piece of work!
Kim Frederick, I too am with you. My S has a CPS record, previous jail time and all I want is him to go to jail and stay there!!! Where he can’t hurt anyone else! And thanks for the tip on Love Addicts!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:17pm
Sarasims says:
I want to add that I’ve seen posts about NC and some of you wondering what you will do or say if and when they try to contact you again. I too think about that constantly!! Part of me wants him too so badly. Maybe to think he still cares and part of it was real?? But by now I should know that isn’t the reason he contacts me! However, if he did, I think I would say:
You are pathetically predictable! Take your small d**k and enormous ego and go f**k yourself LOSER! I’ve figured you out and I’m free of you!
I know I shouldn’t even think those things but it helps me stay MAD and focused I guess!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:33pm
skylar says:
Sarasims,
being mad is ok, but you are still thinking of him as a normal human being if you think that response would hurt him. It wouldn’t. He would like you to show ANY emotion. It’s what he feeds on. He loves knowing that he hurt you. Or that he can make you feel good. Either way, your emotional response gives him power.
So, the correct response is be BORING. No emotional response.
The only other way to hurt him is to say hurtful things, but in a boring tone. For instance, “it turns out you are a malignant narcissist, go google it. Gotta go. bye.” Or “your d**k is too small I like big ones, go google it. Gotta go, bye.”
Or, “You are boring me. call me, we’ll have lunch sometime, gotta go, bye”
Remember, these will cause narcissistic injury and they can be dangerous when they feel slighted. Unless you are certain you can protect yourself, don’t do it.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:41pm
OxDrover says:
To answer the question about “how long?” AS LONG AS IT TAKES. That is different “lengths” of time for each of us, and we will go back and forth between sadness, wanting them back, hating them, wanting revenge, crying, etc etc. rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat. AS LONG AS IT TAKES.
Keep in mind, this is the GRIEF process (google Elizabeth Kubler-Ross” and you will get some information on this grieving that will help you put some words and thoughts to the emotions you are feeling and realize that they are NORMAL.
Mainly DO NOT RUSH this, or set time limits on it by days, weeks, months or even years! It takes as long as it takes.
BE KIND TO YOURSELF. When you find yourself BLAMING yourself, realize you are “bargaining” and when you find yourself crying realize you are depressed, and when you find yourself angry, realize and admit you are justifiably angry.
One day you wil stop and realize that you have ACCEPTED what is, the reality of it all. Even then you may “back step” into anger or sadness, but each FORWARD step leads you closer to RESOLUTION of the grief and complete acceptance of it all, the PAST IS PAST, and it is OVER. Keep your faith in yourself. ((((hugs))) and God bless each of us!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:48pm
Easy says:
I have always believed that each person who crosses our path in this journey , was meant to be! If the lessons didn’t have to be so hard to learn! But that hopefully helps us to not fall as hard again. And when at first we feel how horriable the lesson is, we heal to see how necessary it was. For our own good!
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Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 6:44am
Sarasims says:
Skylar – OMG, ALL this time and I have never thought of it that way. But you are sooooo right! And yes, every response I’ve ever given his is that of emotion….trying to rationalize and make him understand that he hurt me, or being really angry – trying to hurt him like he hurt me. You’re right, it isn’t possible bc he isn’t normal! I see your point. You have really given me another view to reflect upon and I think I get it. Thank you for being here!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 8:02am
Sarasims says:
OxDrover, It really is a grieving process isn’t it? It is sad that so much of our precious time has to be spent hurting this way bc we are good people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time and encountered the S. But I do see your point. And I guess the bottom line is that when we ACCEPT the reality of it all and vow to go NC…..we DO begin to heal. No more “what if” he calls, “what if” he writes? It just simply isn’t a viable path for us any longer and we vow that to ourselves so that we can heal. Thank you for the strength and encouragement. And yes, faith in ourselves at this time I believe is more important than ever. Hugs back at ya!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 8:08am
justabouthealed says:
The P I was involved with wrote: “By the way, I remember the day, at age 35, that I first made the conscious
decision NOT to try to catch a snake. It was the first time in my life that I had even thought about it. Before, any snake was something to be caught, even rattlers. I don’t do that anymore, but on a recent trip caught 2, though passed on the rattler, (which came closer to getting me than any had come, ever before…)”
I share this because it is telling in so many ways. As a young teen, he had lots of snakes in his home. He professed to love them.So he had been catching them for a LONG time. So it is remarkable that he was 35 before he thought about the option of not catching them! This is a doctor. Very good at memorizing facts, but very immature in other ways. Notice he seems to contradicts himself about “I don’t do that anymore” (a P contradicting himself? What a shock, huh?
)
And also notice what this writing reveals about impulse control, about flirting with danger, the lack of healthy fear.
A perfectly normal person could write all this I suppose, except the not thinking about something you’ve been doing for 20 years seems a bit remarkable, especially when you know others certainly raised the issue! P’s don’t think about what they don’t want to think about and it is DIFFICULT for them to think about ethical matters. They avoid it, get frustrated if they even try I’m sure. And I’m not sure how deeply he thought about the ethics, it may have been more just realizing he didn’t have to give in to his impulses each time. Who knows!!!
By the way, when we had just turned 16, he took me on a date to see a play. It was the Glass Menagerie which has snakes in it. It was the last night of the play. After the performance, he left me in the car alone, said he had to get something. He came back with a knotted pillow case and put it on my lap and drove off. He started driving and the pillowcase started moving. It was full of snakes! I had too much pride to show fear….and I’m sure I immensely disappointed him by my refusal to show any emotion about it. It was a sign of the thrills he got from upsetting people.
Again, by itself, it could seem like just a rather mean practical joke. But when you see it as part of a larger pattern, you begin to realize it is another red flag.
To later beat ourselves up for missing some of these red flags is unreasonable. Of course, many of their red flags are clearer, especially in retrospect.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 9:59am
justabouthealed says:
PS the note I quoted from was three years ago, I am NC of course!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 10:27am
Sarasims says:
justabouthealed – that’s interesting and very disturbing at the same time. My SP also had this love for snakes which I couldn’t understand at all. I thought it was just something that he did bc he thought it was cool. Now that I think about it, he led a very double life. The him that he wanted everyone to see….devoted dad, hard worker, sweet guy….but then he had this really dark creepy side that no one knew existed.
Another interesting point that they don’t think about what they don’t want to think about…considering whether it be ethical, moral, etc. When I first met him, he showed me this really compassionate caring side. One that “seemed” to consider right from wrong. Knowing he had done bad things in his past but wanting to change. Over time, of course that changed. When I finally figured out that he was with another woman while with me – and tried to figure out what I had done wrong, what was going on…I just wanted to talk it out…..his response to me was: “you spend too much time thinking, it is what it is, people will do what people do. I told you I was sorry, but I don’t want to talk about it ever again. Just leave it alone.” And that was it. It was his way or no way. And he CAN literally do things without EVER giving them a second thought. Turn the thought process off completely. People will do what they are going to do…..too bad! So what who it hurts. I even heard that he and this other woman he was seeing locked her small son out of the house when they were having sex and the child went to the neighbor who called the police!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She’s just as bad as he is – so it wouldn’t surprise me at all. I think he’s finally met a SP woman.
The red flags were so very much there but I was so in love that it didn’t matter. I kept thinking he would have the “AHA” moment when he realized he had made a huge mistake and I was the best thing that had ever come into his life. But of course, I know have come to the realization that he is not capable of such a thought process. Nor is he willing or able to love bc his thoughts are not those of a normal, functioning human being. Now it is you and I who have to pick up the pieces of our good and caring hearts and find a new tomorrow full of happiness. One without the dramas of a crazy person in our life.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 10:53am
Sarasims says:
BTW – since I have decided and become determined to go NC, I have now learned that I will be forced to be at a function in which he too will be present. I am terrified! Although I know he will ignore me and act like I’m not even alive, the fear of being anywhere near him and how I’m going to act, consumes me!
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Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 10:58am
skylar says:
The comment, “it is what it is” seems to pop up around Ps alot. They say it when they are describing bad people or behavior. They aren’t outraged by badness. They accept it.
And yes, they do like snakes, but I think it is because they think they are snakes. They feel their own behavior is snake like because it is based on the “reptile brain” that part of the brain that is most instinctive with no love or compassion, no philosophy or self-control.
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Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 11:53am
skylar says:
Sarasims,
just practice being very cool, calm and BORING. At the function, act, do not be you. Be anyone else. Don’t let any emotion show, be bland and bored.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 11:55am
justabouthealed says:
“I told you I told you I was sorry, but I don’t want to talk about it ever again. Just leave it alone.”
So typical! First of all, they think words alone make it all better! No need for real remorse, for pledges to not to do it again, to ask that they be given time to show they mean it by ACTIONS, no attempts to make restitution……unless of course they WANT something.
And the entitlement…the right to tell YOU , the injured party, to leave it alone.
The P I was involved with HATED if I quoted to him from “old” emails…like 10 days earlier! Professing love! That was then, this is now.
They JUST DON’T GET IT.
Never will. Incapable.
Or if they do get it, they disregard it if it doesn’t suit their purposes which are always about them.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 12:39pm
jillsmith says:
Thank you for this. It helped me to read this.
I’m going to stop holding STOP signs up in my head. It’s a great idea.
Congratulations on the marathon. I googled my name today, as I do from time to time to see what he posts about me and what searches he’s doing to find me. I ran into a post about people who ran a marathon for raising funds for breast cancer. I ran it right before my mom died of breast cancer. I went right back to that moment and felt good about myself for running it. I little bit of self pride came back to me and it had been a long time since I felt that feeling. It’s almost like I have forgotten what it feels like to be. . .well, to be ME. I liked the feeling. I think I’m going to start running again. I had forgotten how much I enjoyed it, as I have forgotten most of the things I enjoyed. Good job for reminding yourself of the wonderful things you did and of what makes you, you. Thank you for sharing.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 4:03pm
jillsmith says:
Edit:
I meant to say, “I’m going to start holding STOP signs in my head”.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 4:03pm
persephone7 says:
I haven’t posted in a long time and didn’t follow through with NC. But I’ve started reading again and just absorbing what you all share – and I know
I need to ‘boink’ myself or be ‘boinked’ again over and over with this person in my life. Right now I’m sick with a terrible cold – he was supposed to be coming up this weekend with his son ‘to hang out’ with me and then no call or explanation. It doesn’t bother me, gave me time to just call in
sick one day – I had been out of town to see my sister who is so sick-I knew this cold was part of my needing to regroup – didn’t call him to make drama over it and the
usual response will be that he’ll call me in a few days(after he knows my
days off are over, weekend is over) and he’ll say ’so YOU couldn’t pick up
a phone and call ME? This is what was going on….(usually something so
old like he broke his cell phone, someone in family died, had to go out-of-state, etc. ) And sometimes I spend the time mulling over whether it’s
me who is UNAVAILABLE, I fear he is really ok but I am the monster…
As to catching snakes, when I first read Sarasims post, I thought she was going to say SHE was no longer deciding to catch snakes – that’s how it struck me, that I’ve had a habit of having snakes cross my path
and going ahead and picking them up (and taking them home!) I even
had the situation literally happen to me this summer – walking a familiar
path by the river, saw a beautiful big snake on the path, was not a rattler
but I just sensed danger anyway and just turned around and took the path back to a street -way home. So I know my tendencies, to be attracted to men who are kind of ’solo’ like myself, charming and need
compassion and ‘fixing’ – wasn’t my second marriage enough to put me
in the fire and I was lucky enough and smart enough to walk away?
So all’s not lost – I just empathize with all here – am contemplating not
even picking up when he calls, or as you say – just be boring – right now
I have other fish to fry (with Oxy’s skillet…) in getting myself and life
back in order. Thanks to all for listening and sharing.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 10:06am
OxDrover says:
Dear Persphone,
How a bout I give you a BIG HUG for coming back instead of the boink you have already given yourself!!!! (((((HUG))))))
I am so glad you are back!
Now you are NOT the monster, but for some reason you are making choices that you really know are NOT good sound choices.
At this point sweetie, it IS about YOU, not him now. and you DO have other fish to fry sweetie, you need to get YOUR life together. I KNOW YOU CAN DO IT. What is all this “drama” doing for you? NADA!!!!\
Get to feeling better and stay around here!!! I’ve lmissed you! (((hugs))) and my prayers!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 10:21am
Stargazer says:
Persephone,
First of all, I don’t know how I missed the snake conversation. I love snakes, so I give you kudos for taking them home and not killing them. (Sociopaths don’t deserve the same treatment, though, IMO).
The biggest thing my sociopath used to do is say he was going to call and not call. He also was no show for two dates. After enough of this, I called it quits. I did not wait for worse behavior that inevitably would have followed. He always had an excuse for why he didn’t call and downplayed it as though it weren’t a big deal. This became the norm for the short time I dated him, and I came to “make excuses” for his behaviors, even though it hurt me.
I just want to validate that it DOES hurt when someone is supposed to call or stop by and doesn’t. It is a manipulative ploy to put it back on you, like you’re the one that is supposed to be calling. The “no show, no explanation” is a typical sociopathic behavior. I’d never seen it before him and I didn’t like it. I got out quickly after that crap started, but not quickly enough. It took me a year to get over a 2-month relationship. So I urge you to get out now, while you can, because it just takes so long to recover from these creeps.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 12:51pm
persephone7 says:
Thanks so much Oxy for virtual hugs and remembering me. And Stargazer, it is unfortunately what I need right now, and that is to be validated – especially about the calls and being stood up. He had gotten better about it and I have thought we were on a new page but it always slips back – wish I had had your self-esteem way back to avoid it after two dates! And I wasn’t truthful when I said ‘it doesn’t bother me’ when he didn’t call – you file the hurt away subconsciously and it tears you down just that little bit more. Though what may be healthy, and what he doesn’t realize is that with reading books,
looking here and just with the passage of time, I’ve seen both his and my patterns. It doesn’t bother me AS MUCH and perhaps I’m finally ready to disengage, because I don’t know if I DO love him
anymore and I have found I’m more and more accepting of myself – I do know I try to be kind to whoever I meet and it is usually reflected right back to me. Most of the people here at this site say
they have good friends, alot of them have raised wonderful kids despite hardships and I can put myself in that category. I don’t believe what this person says to me anymore…I WANT to, but it’s been
a slow drip-drip-drip eroding whatever trust and love I have for him as an individual. He may be legitimately struggling, so am I financially and with job and family decisions to make, but he seems
to give me love and sanctuary (that’s why I think I haven’t wanted to move on and add to what’s going on around me) and then just as quickly, he takes it away. So there’s the emotional pain anyway,
why not just end it like scratching off a to-do list, in this case – things to move on from…
And no, I didn’t mean I literally picked up snakes from my path – it just struck me as similar to what I’ve done with a certain kind of man – like the snakes who just do what they do, they bite you – no apologies! So kudos not in order – real snakes get my respect and even admiration for their beauty but that’s about it! They say when you see a healthy one it is a sign of Kundalini, the life force and
I’ll take it at that – and these encounters with dangerous, seemingly more ‘alive’ men is just a wake-up call to take my own aliveness and creativity and do something productive and soul-satisfying with
it, not give my own energy away.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 1:39pm
OxDrover says:
Dear persephone,
Let’s see now, you “may or may not love this guy because…”
He manipulates you
he is a no show
he doesn’t call you til he knows you aren’t available.
he lies to you
he “gives you love and security” but then TAKES IT AWAY
him treating you like this “tears you down”
So he is BENEFICIAL to your life HOW?
Sweetie, wake up and SMELL the SEWER! That ain’t coffee you are smelling—this whole situation stinks to high heaven and it isn’t going to EVER smell like roses and sunlight!
YOU DESERVE BETTER—but he is not going to treat you better, and so I suggest that YOU start treating yourself better by NOT ALLOWING THIS MAN TO TREAT YOU LIKE CRAP!
Focus on yourself, you are STRONGER than you know!!! (((hugs)))) and my prayers!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 3:03pm
skylar says:
Persephone,
I’m not going to ask you for a million dollars or even 1000 dollars or even 100 dollars or even 10 dollars.
All I want from you is to please, send me 1 dollar. Send $1 each day for the rest of your life. One dollar doesn’t seem like much. right?
But it adds up. And soon I’ll have a little nest egg and you’ll have nothing.
That’s what you are giving this guy when you give him the time of day. You’re giving him a part of your self esteem. It’s not very much, after all he does make you feel better for a while, but then, after 25 YEARS have gone by, you realize, you’ve got nothing to show for it.
P’s are like cigarettes. Sure, you’re addicted to that quick little fix, but they aren’t good for you. You live with yellow nails and teeth and then, you end up with cancer. Finally, when you look back at your life you see that they sucked your bank account, your time and your health and left you with nothing.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 3:41pm
persephone7 says:
Oh you guys…I know you’re right. It’s egotistical to think that somehow this scenario, this person is different. Even if they are, I need a major break – one time he even said to me, if you don’t trust me, you should’t be with me. And he’s right – I can’t just use him for my temporary comfort and then complain or seek advice here. Other than my second husband , I’ve never had to say to someone
“I can’t talk to you anymore, maybe somewhere down the line but not now.” and cease being their friend. I’m not getting out the skillet, but it makes me sad to think I’ve let this evolve as well to that point with someone. I do feel in a way, I’ve stuck by him, stuck by him and then suddenly given up my faith, kicked him to the curb when the going is still tough. But it’s reality, folks… someone
else has to step in for me – I’ve done my time! I’ll just say a prayer for him, a prayer for me – separately. Skylar – I have loaned him money and the truth is – he’s never paid me back, not even $1! There have been promises, dates he’s given me and thankfully it’s not a huge amount. Anyway, I’m rarely sick -am going to go take a major nap – wish I had a week to just be a hermit and do art and shut the world out!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 4:30pm
Tilly says:
FANTASTIC POST!! I so identified! and I love the signposts eg, “I posted No Trespassing signs in my mind. When thoughts of him intruded, I’d mentally hold up a sign and send the thoughts back”. I will be putting up these signs including the stop signs from today. Even tho the only thoughts i have of him/them are of revenge. I was told this is because i suffered extreme abuse since childhood at the hands of my p parents and sibling. But i don’t care WHY anymore. I am sick of “WHY”. I want to get to NC emotionally and in my mind.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 5:53pm
Tilly says:
Do you think Matt will be back to celebrate NC for himself (as I will be one year NC then too), in November?? Or has he moved so far ahead that we will never see him again for dust? lol!
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 5:56pm
Stargazer says:
Persephone,
Here is a test of whether he is a true sociopath or whether he has just had a run of “bad luck”. You are here, right? Therefore, he is a sociopath!!!
I totally understand what happens when you have that bond, and you start second guessing yourself. I’ve been there, though, thankfully, not for long. After I kicked mine out of my life, I actually turned him into the army for adultery. (He was lying about his divorce). At that time I found out that this very sweet man who seemed to have a problem keeping his dates and phone appointments, was FAKING a head injury to get out of the army. I thought the head injury was the cause of his problem!!! That’s why I was so forgiving of him. My sworn statement actually got him charged with fraud and adultery. During this time, I heard he was on “suicide watch”. He has a very young child, so when I heard this, I had a moment of pity for him and wanted to withdraw my statement. THEY PLAY ON OUR PITY!!! Fortunately, I didn’t. I felt guilt, sadness, longing for him, and all kinds of feelings for a long long time. I was basically putting away the person I was in love with. I guarantee he didn’t commit suicide; he is probably out there playing someone else, possibly from behind bars.
A year after the fact, I can tell you I made the right decision. I am so glad he is out of my life. It was only 2 months that I fell for his lies. But it was 2 months too long.
Please, please take your life back now while you still can. The longer you stay with him, the more of your life he will take. The angrier you will be when you finally do leave.
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 7:07pm
persephone7 says:
Stargazer:
Thanks- wish we could have lunch together or just a walk, but just reading your thoughts and hearing your own examples gives me clarity. The hardest part IS the second-guessing and right now I feel so trashed with this cold, it’s a relief in a way not to hear from him. Though I felt today (or Now!) like maybe I should call him just to avoid the excuses or slight harassment or kissing up that will come on the next call. I’ve broken it off with him before – I’m not angry and don’t want to be – I think it’s more a lack of patience anymore. I go ahead and do things on my own, he may even be irritated because when he called late Friday, I was actually out having a good time – I figured if he was going to follow through he’d follow through and I’d see if it fit in with ME!
But I know it’s going to be hard, he’s a part of my soul – I don’t even want to express that here – and you can roll your eyes, I roll my own at myself but it will be my own personal history and
emotions I’ll just have to process. I have tried to help with his ‘line of bad luck’ but it doesn’t seem to change a thing even though he SAYS he appreciates it – My turn for My Life.
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 8:20pm
persephone7 says:
I meant ‘run of bad luck’ but maybe ‘line’ is part of the deal, too.
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 8:24pm
persephone7 says:
And sometimes my posts sound so stilted – ah, the clarity of it all. please forgive me and pass the cough medicine…
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 8:31pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Hi Persephone:
Girl…..what you feel is so normal!
We give them so much of ourselves…..and so undeservingly!
But we do……
It’s natural to question ourselves…..we have a fantasy and we question when we question it…..we question our questions on our questions…..SEE THE CRAZYMAKING.
Even after all my hell and distance and fight….I have moments of feeling…..’what if I was wrong’. I don’t know why this creeps in, because in my heart and soul, I can’t deny what I lived……what my kids lived….But it’s the fantasy I miss….MY FANTASY….because the S surely never played along.
It’s the fear of being alone, it almost seems easier to stick around and try to change it…..WE CANT and it only allows the years to pass with the same results.
No contact is hard at first….it’s like a diet…..you see that candybar and you want it! It’s a mindfuck……but stick it out….I’m not so sure they ever creep totally out of our minds….but it lessons the more control we have over our own lives.
The farther away we get…..the more we see. It’s a journey….
Quite frankly…..there is no pain I am affraid of now…..because it’s all about learning. I learn so much daily…..some things I never wanted to know…..but it was/is my time to learn them…..in all aspects of life….
You know why…..because my blinders were removed. It opened up my world.
See it, live it, feel it…….it really is a painfully wonderful journey.
If we remain aware and in control and stay strong……we come out a much healthier person having the experience.
Don’t hide from it…..it doesn’t go away!
Good luck darling……stay NC….it’s important!
XXOO
eb
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 8:59pm
Stargazer says:
I’m not rolling my eyes, Persephone, because it felt exactly the same for me, even though I only dated him for a short time. I believed him to be the love of my life. I felt I’d waited my whole life for someone like him. The break-up almost killed me. Literally. I was close to suicide for a month or two. It was extremely painful to make the break, and it took a long time to heal. When you decide to go NC, it will feel like a part of your soul is being ripped out. It will hurt beyond what you could ever imagine. I’m not gonna lie about that. We all felt that soul thing with our S’s. But you will know you’re doing the right thing and you have no choice if you want your life back.
I sometimes feel like I’m not a really worthy part of this club because I only stayed with my S a short time. I did not get beaten, called names, criticized, or trashed. I had no money stolen–not a penny. I got out easy compared to most of the people here. But the devastation was just as complete. I vowed that if I ever got over him (which I have) I would help others in the same position. So I’m asking you to keep reading and see what you are dealing with. Maybe it doesn’t seem so terrible now. What is your breaking point? For some, it was when they had their houses and savings stolen. For some, it was when they were beaten within an inch of their lives. For others, it was losing their children. For me, it was a bunch of promised phone calls that never happened and two “no shows”. That’s all it took for me. I decided I didn’t wanted to be treated like that. I didn’t even find out what a sociopath was until after I cut him out of my life! (That was when I found out about all his lying and defrauding the government). I STILL went back and forth for several months, imagining that he MUST love me deep down, that any man who could be so sweet to me must have genuine affection for me. Thank God for this site. It saved my life and kept me out of denial. I am lucky. You can be lucky too, and get out while the gettin’s good. There will never be a time when it will be easy or feel good to leave. There is only a point when you decide you deserve better.
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 9:06pm
persephone7 says:
Erin – I’ve read so many of your posts and admire you so much – you have really been to hell and back and you’re still standing. And Stargazer, you’re an example to me of how I could have trusted my initial instincts and known as you said, that things weren’t going to get better(or at the very least, were going to be weird…) I’m going to bed, reread both your posts several times now, my eyes are swollen from crying on and off today-Erin’s post brought tears again but it’s probably a good thing to finally cry. I know the situation with my sister and
her terminal illness has been underlying everything, I’ve been out there 4 times since January and even this last time felt torn because I had to take time off from work to go again – this
may have been last time I’ll see her alive. And I’ve wondered about myself that sometimes there’s a numbness now in my character, maybe there is a kind of anger even at my own
loved ones that no one looks out for ME, that I have to get right in front of people and say HEY, this is what’s going on with ME, maybe that’s why there are so many ‘I’s in my entries here.
That may sound terrible, I love my sister – the man in my life will even allude to the fact there’s been alot on my plate this year and then turn around and be rude to me (for lack of better
word…) Life just happens, I want to experience it all as Erin says and come out a better person, mother, sister, lover – I’m just doing the best I can at the moment.
And I’ve had some good times, guess I just wanted the whole FANTASY. In terms of NC now, I think I am strong enough to calmly say it’s over to him, that it is just too much for me
now to try to be there for him if he can’t be trusted to follow through for me, even in small ways. I know he’ll be ‘mad’ but I think I can take him hanging up on me or calling back and
then going NC. If I go NC now, he will continue to call and then become sarcastic and mean with his messages which I just don’t want right now, does that make sense? I realize it’s going to be uncomfortable no matter what.
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 10:10pm
M.L. Gallagher says:
Hi — thought I’d chime in. I’ve read a lot of the comments — and the similarities, the strength and encouragement everyone shares is inspiring.
I also wanted to comment on the ‘labelling’ — and then the questioning of ourselves. Is he a P? An S? An N? A rat baztard or just a jerk?
In the end, it doesn’t matter what letter of the alphabet soup he is. An A, B, C, or just plain nimcompoop.
What matters is how do we feel with them in our lives? Is it creating more of what we want? More of what we deserve, or are we feeling less than, other than, diminished by their presence? Are we questioning ourselves, doubting our sanity, doubting our right to feel the way we do, be the way we are? Are we feeling unsettled, off balance, out of sorts by their antics? Are we focusing on what they’re saying, and ignoring the truth of what they’re doing as we try to figure out what did they mean, do they mean, or are they just plain mean or simply ignorant, dumb, unfeeling, blind?
Where are we in the relationship?
One of my greatest learnings from that encounter was that I spent an inordinate amount of time thinking about what he said, did, didn’t do. Wondering about what he was thinking, feeling, doing, where he was going, not going, when would he call, not call, turn up, disappear. I spent my energy wondering about him — and ignored how I was feeling, what I was doing, thinking, being. Having him in my life was diminishing my joy, happiness, contentment, peace of mind, yet, I didn’t think about the reality of his presence, I focused on the ‘myth’, the story I wanted to believe he told me was true. To believe his lies, I had to quit thinking about me and my needs. I had to put my thoughts, every waking one of them and my dreams as well, on the nightmare of him.
In the end, whatever letter of the alphabet you apply to his condition, it’s his personality disorder, not yours. If what he did or is doing makes you feel sick, the cure isn’t thinking about his sickness and hoping you’ll find a cure for him. You’re not that powerful. The resolution is finding the best cure for you — and the best cure for you is to turn up for yourself and take good loving care of you.
I had to quit swimming in his soup in order to find myself again on solid ground. A, B, or C, his soup was the poison.
It is when we quit focusing on ‘him’ (or her) and start shining our light on ourselves, that we begin to heal, to love ourselves exactly the way we are, and to forgive ourselves and everyone who has hurt us so that we can surrender and fall in love with all we are and the world around us.
What the women and men have written here to support those still struggling with letting go of the abuser is very powerful. For those on the beginning steps of their healing journey, know that what you are feeling is normal — and then let the thought go. There is no normal in the world that will ever make sense of a relationship with someone of the disorderly personality kind. Ultimately, it is not normal to feel less than because of someone’s love in your life. Love never abuses. Love never diminishes. Love never hurts.
Abuse hurts. Stop it.
Love yourself enough to give yourself the gift of NC from the abuser. Whatever letter of the alphabet he/she is, focusing on him/her, trying to figure him/her out, only keeps your focus off the one who deserves your attention most — you.
In love and healing,
Louise
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Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 11:21pm
blueskies says:
‘Abuse hurts. Stop it.
Love yourself enough to give yourself the gift of NC from the abuser. Whatever letter of the alphabet he/she is, focusing on him/her, trying to figure him/her out, only keeps your focus off the one who deserves your attention most — you.’
AMEN LOUISE!xxxxxx
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:47am
ErinBrockovich says:
Persephone:
Cry, cry cry…..you get to a point where you have no more tears…..I have hardened to the point where the only thing that chokes me up is realizing I went through my illnesses all alone….treatments AND the divorce….I had no one…..I trusted NO ONE…..The S allowed me to doubt everyones intentions, I had no idea who he had conned at that point.
But…..we all want hugs and love, especially during trying real times…..AND we don’t all have that. It’s mind boggeling….but it’s true.
We can get through it….I am here to tell you! IT sucks, but with each minute, then each hour, hten each day, week, month and now years…..time doesn’t stop for any of us! It passes, we grow, we learn, we become another person of who we were yesterday…..Life is an evolution and a journey…..somehow, I think we all believe it’s the plateau we strive to reach……then we can set up camp and hang out…..My plateau fell off the mtn, and I rolled viscuiosly down to the bottom valley…..wow, shocking, I didn’t deserve this, I worked hard, was a great wife, a great employee, a great mother……WHY am I at the valley now? Well….just because…..I had more lessons and life to live.
Just when you think you will have nothing left…..yoiu will amaze yoruself with your own strength….and patience and perseverance…..JUST KEEP PUTTING ONE FOOT IN FRONT OF THE OTHER!
We realize the importance of things in our lives…..like taking time off work to visit your sister……when we put things into perspective, it all becomes clear….
Develope your fuck it attitude and just go for it….do it…..
We all have so many worries every day, deadlines, people to please, tasks, plans ….whatever….
I realized…..in an instant…..none of it matters…..really…..the world did not end…..I got sick….ONE DAY…..and everything on my list to do got put off for a year! Not one person gave me shit……because it didn’t matter…..it was all extremely important at the time….because I made it that way……but it all waited or went away in that year until I could get to it!
So now…..THINGS, Plans, Tasks….whatever are still important, yet, I know……none of it matters in the large scope of life. This was just one lesson my illness taught me.
So what, I have a home in foreclosure I’m dealing with…..I have SHOT credit……I have bills that haven’t been paid in god knows how long……It will all be worked out….and if not….hmmmmmm I AM ALIVE!
I’ts not that I don’t take things seriously, I DO…..I just learned the importance of it all…..I was more loyal to others than I was to myslef!
SO…..go visit your sister……your life will be here when you get back….I assure you…..and do it guilt free….
I guess it all boils down to……each decision…..the question is ….to worry or not to worry……”AM I OR ANYONE I LOVE GOING TO DIE IF I MAKE THIS DECISION”? 99.999% of the time the answer is NO!
And in regards to your relationship…..the less said the better….we tend to think we need to explain or be explained to……S’s only lie….you never get straight answers anyways…..so don’t bother. WHY?
My ex still to this day has not heard from me….why we divorced after all these years of marriage! I owe him nothing…..He knows…..if he allows himself to ‘go there’…..
and any normal thinker certainly would never let a 28 year relationship go if it was so very important without a fight……he knows what he did, he knows who he is…….he is just not sure of what lies I found out! So he is better off just ‘letting it go and not pressing me for the ‘why’….. ya know?
No contact is just that….NO contact…..
They do up the ante….the phone calls, texts, attempts…..but they get it soon enough. Your in control of listening and reading them all…..so don’t. Just cut him out. he’s not healthy for you, he is toxic…..you explaining to him your vulnerability will only open anohter door for him to attack at some point.
Just walk away……No contact is no explanation…..
It is weird, it feels weird……but you will see his evolution and loss of control over you and it will empower you…..build on every day, every minute…..
Once your ‘out’, you will be better able to prioritize your life and see what is important…..right now your in a rip current with no life preserver and certainly no lifeguard on duty.
Take care of yourself…..your worth it!
I bid you peace and a good nights sleep!!!
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 1:50am
teacher123 says:
If I knew then what I know now. It is healing to just read the articles and posts here. You guys “get it”, even though it may have come with great cost. M.L. Gallagher, your comments are so true. We could diagnose until we become blue in the face, or become a psychologist, it doesn’t matter. They were the ones who used us, abused us, and made us feel like we were the crazy ones. It is all a power play- they want to jump up and down on your soul like Stargazer says. Would a normal person who wants good things from you, from a relationship, do these things? Certainly not intentionally like these less than zero types. I could have filled the page with some other adjectives like some of the good ones I read here. My favorite is to think of the one in my case as Miss genital herpes. Every conversation is about them, they are so glamorous, famous, rich, pretty, wonderful beyond compare, and you are crap. Well take it all back, the power, the sanity, the glamour, the love by being good to yourself, and losing the loser. I have mentioned this before, but it helps me with keeping the real mental picture. I have visions of cutting the head off of Medusa- the one who is so mean her blood drops are snakes- like in the movie Clash of the Titans. Then going back to do the same to her Gorgon sisters- the Psycopath, Narcissist, whatever, enablers or friends. Period.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 4:55am
teacher123 says:
Oh yeah, and you can’t stop to look at it or you will turn to stone. Run like Lot’s family from Sodom- you know what happened to his wife when she had a momentary lapse of sympathy…..
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 5:06am
jennifer1011 says:
His intense narcissism has kept him from violating the restraining order and being thrown in jail. No Contact. I thought never
having to see him ever again would be enough.
Without question, the most difficult part of ridding myself of my former husband and P has been the inner struggle. I don’t think I’ve ever fought so hard for anything in my life. 21months, its been 21 months, and now, finally, even in my dreams, I reject him. What he did to me became the wolf in my head, a ghost that haunted me, a shadow that followed me everywhere. No one else can help you exorcise that demon, its a battle for your own soul…and the trouble is you’re fighting the thoughts in your own mind. Not an easy
thing to do.
I’d love to sue him, go after him legally, get my daughter’s college fund back, make him pay for all he did to us, but then I’d have to see him, deal with him, deal with the slander and malicious gossip he’s spread about me, deal with the raving lunatics, no matter how few, that actually believe his insane accusations. But suing him would not necessarily bring justice for me or for my daughter. I rejoice for every woman who is able to sustain the courage and strength it takes to fight that fight.
My own victory is more humble. I have won back MYSELF.
I am worth so much more than the dollars and the years he stole from us. The victory of winning back my mind, heart, body, and soul is more precious than anything I could have hoped for. His life is a prison because he has no soul and because he has no true value. I leave him to that and I leave him for God to deal with, and I walk away free.
Everything I ever had is gone, everything. But it was all just stuff really and I can work hard and get all that back again some day if I want to, and we’ll be all right no matter what because we’re still alive, and now we’re safe too. The thing I could not replace is the thing I saved, I saved myself…and little by little, I reclaimed myself.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:28am
witsend says:
Jennifer,
GOOD for you! You mention the word humble. Your victory is courageous…Not humble. You yourself are “feeling” humbled having arrived there. Because of the inner struggle it took to get there.
For many of us it is more than enough victory to be able to survive the journey of healing and come to the other side and feel “whole” again. That initself is a tremendous battle.
Don’t beat yourself up for not having gone after him legally.
Generally this takes lots and lots of energy and often times more money than it is worth. Because in the END even if you win and are legally granted the money that is due to you…You never see a penny of it anyways. So in the end it is really just another MORAL victory and you already have that.
I think you put your energy to good use!
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:51am
BlackDeer says:
Thanks so much for this article. The NC that’s the biggest problem for me is the NC in my head…for so long boi (my new name for him) took up all the air in the room, now he still takes an awful lot of real estate in my brain. I know I don’t love him but still the running question about whether I’ve misjudged him terribly, have been unfair somehow, etc.
I’ve made progress but still a way to go, clearly. Now to decide whether I employ the old lady with the skillet or a No Trespassing sign!
To all who said that bland is the only way to be if you have to deal with an N/P, hear hear. Only once, right after I left, did I lose it and go off on boi and he dug right into that like it was a big juicy steak. Such a stark lesson in how much of what they say or do is in the effort to get that “reward” of making you lose control. Now if I have contact (which I occasionally do to tie up some business) I’m bland beyond belief. He even commented that last time he saw me he realized that I’m not as special as he’d always thought and that I even *look* smaller! LOL. You just look older, boi.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:54am
Stayingsane says:
Skylar
Yep you nailed it when you said something like….responding to a P as if he/she is a normal feeling human being is proof that we have not really understood the psychological make up of this condition….that a P is incapable of comprehending a normal emotional response in a normal way ….so for instance me telling him he is a moron, baby boy,lying, thieving, cheating blah de blah does not even register with him as even disturbing….but for me perhaps the expression to his face, to have at least tried to get through to his heart…will do me good but it will never do anything to him except keep him defining me as crazy, defective, mentally ill etc etc I am stilll fascinated by him, as an entity because imagine being that dense? that insensitive? that selfish? it’s amazing to me! I simply cannot believe it! but I reckon I will keep prodding him to see if there is even a twitch of humanity…it’s like i’m addicted to the fantasy that he will one day turn around and melt, the horse will win the race, the high will kick in , I will win the jackpot….its addiction…so I reckon I will read up about love addiction and 12 step it for a while…He liked snakes too…he called me a snake once or twice…I remember thinking what is he seeing me as? I actually was in the process of betraying him by seeing through him….sssss!
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 9:50am
Stayingsane says:
I have thought about all of the following methods of dealing with him:
Voodoo, cursing, hexing, taking to court, Getting police, telling new girlfriends of his, telling the entire community about him, hiring hit man, praying that he crashes into the back of a bus,visualising him dying in agony, visualising be heading him and playing football with his head up and down the road before being taken away laughing insanely…..but the most effective one so far is feeling peace and letting him go to his fate whatever it is..not there yet (by a long shot) but that’s the one that feels the best fit. Stooping to his level and acting out the crazy psycho back to him is fun but it’s insane, and anyway just think of how puzzled he will be when I stop reacting and just pull all my energy back to my own life…
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 10:13am
witsend says:
Ok guys….Have been trying to nurse myself back to health this week. I have an upper respiratory thing going on and also had a touch of the flu a week ago. I felt dehydrated and weak. So I couldn’t get much work done.
Have been using this time doing some reading of the older articles and also doing lots of thinking.
I need some input as the days pass I am just feeling like my entire life is spinning out of control.
As much effort as I have put into trying to have some effective parenting the “ground rules” have all been in vain.
Him having to go to school is all in vain. He shows up and sleeps in class.
He breaks both rules at school and at home and manages to somehow avoid all consequences one way or the other. He manages to “tow the line” when it involves actually breaking the LAW, so that he doesn’t fall into the system (yet) I BELIEVE at this point this is a conscience choice on his part.
In other words, getting him to school last year was such a struggle I had almost hoped he would go “truant” this year because then the truancy dept could be notified.
If he stays out after curfew, and is supposed to be grounded the next day he simply doesn’t come home from school….
No matter what you might try to do, he will find a way around it. And every time he “accomplishes” what he sets out to do, it is like a feather in his cap.
If he has been issued an after school 15 minute detention by a teacher for “missing assignments” he will NOT show up. UNTIL the teacher reports him to the principle and if he doesn’t show up for that detention he will get suspended. This detention is for an hour with the primcipal, he WILL show up and NOT do the missing work. Just sit for an hour. So they can’t suspend him but he hasn’t also complied with what the detention was for in the very begining to DO THE MISSING WORK.
These are just a “few” easy to describe (NOT EVEN THE WORST OF WHAT HE DOES) examples of how he manages to manipulate the situation to his liking.
There are many many more and none of them are really of much importance “individually”. But as a whole they tend to define how he will take any situation under his CONTROL and do it “his way”.
All of this seems to just “feed” into his appetite of control, as I see it.
I have already accepted the fact that with each boundary he crosses, he moves onto the next. And that he counts each and every one as a victory.
Recently I have begun to realize that I am unable to help him in any way. As a matter of fact I believe that many days I seem to “fuel” his fire. Even if I am not actually interacting with him in any way at the moment. His anger/hatred is so deep for me.
And yet as N/C is not an option, I don’t know how to co- habitate with him where as I am not “adding” to his disorder.
That is really what it has come down to. VERY SAD to say but, a pretty accurate description.
I am his mother and yet it has been proven to me time and time again that I can’t do anything to help him. My sons developement was arrested within him long ago. And something has manifested within him over the past two years during puberty that has progressed to the point where he is a complete stranger to me. I do believe that he is a danger, both to himself and to myself as well. I do believe he will also be a danger to society “in general” once he goes out into the real world. Because his coping skills and the way he lives in his distorted sense of reality are never going to “make it” in the real world.
So how do I interact with him on a daily basis? I feel responsibility to do the best I can do under the circumstances, yet sometimes I do not feel safe in my own home. Any suggestions? My coping skills have been tested to the maximum and I just don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 10:39am
kim frederick says:
Witsend, I feel for you. I wish I had some wise advise, but I don’t. I can’t imagine the absolute frustration you must feel, and all the conflicting emotions. God bless you.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 10:55am
persephone7 says:
First -to Witsend – teenage years with your own child is hard enough without having the extra challenges you mention. My son turned out fine but originally did not graduate because of his,attitude towards school and homework, it was a real source of frustration with my first husband and myself – our son was working outside of school and just felt his time after school should be his own totally! And he was short-fused if you really tried to corner him and get him to cooperate, I tried to make him realize I’d be happy to help him with English homework which was his nemesis. But ultimately, he had to face NOT going down the aisle at graduation with his friends and for another year or so, he floundered until finally – once we stopped worrying or bringing it up to him, he went and took the GED and passed, eventually went on to be self-motivated enough to take classes on his own to find a very good job. But during those years, probably a span of 7-8 years, he was a challenge to say no to, over money (borrowing it, and you knew you were kissing it goodbye). I had to start simply saying no, no, no and just sticking to it. After our divorce, my son tried living with his dad, who is actually a very(too) mellow guy but he drove him to distraction and they almost came to blows one night so I took my son back (we lived nearby, it was a trial situation as it was…) At any rate, your son sounds like he is in that syndrome of liking the ‘negative attention’ – during and after that period of my divorce my son became more of a problem and very needy – is there any way to give him ‘positive’ attention at this point without feeding into his ‘control’ or bad boy actions – sometimes I felt my son just needed to be reminded that the divorce didn’t reflect on him and that also, I loved him as much as his sister (who has never been a problem, thankfully…)
My prayers are with you – it’s so hard when it is your own son or daughter and you want them to have a happy life – and have healthy relationships with you and everyone else.
Thanks, Louise and Erin (and others) for your posts -I’m feeling a bit better today, still coughing and my head feels like a congested balloon but went to bed early and slept like a bear in
hibernation…I’m taking what you said to heart, it is probably better to go NC right away – hard to wrap my head around not just hearing his voice one more time, but that’s the drug that
gets me back into it again. As you said, no matter what label I put on him or the relationship, it’s not bringing me support, consideration, consistent love and respect (and not enough FUN!)
so I have to choose not to let him dominate my thoughts and life anymore. Whether I feel like I’m being a ‘nice’ person can’t be the issue – that hasn’t helped me a whole lot…
One more thought for Witsend and hope you won’t find this offensive or simplistic…Since I’ve been reading so much about the brain (in understanding my sister’s neurological disease) there
have been alot of studies as to how just sugar and our diet can affect our behavior – sometimes just a bad diet can ‘fuel the fire’ of bad or confusing behavior. Even children with supposed
ADD or autism improved noticeably with the introduction of better food choices and cutting out junk food. I listened to a great lecture online by a Gracelyn Guyol, who wrote a book called “Healing Depression & Bipolar Disorder without Drugs” and she talks about this as well. Maybe all the sociopaths need to stop drinking and going to Mickey D’s…Good luck to you.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 11:48am
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
I wish I could tell you something “magic” to help, but unfortunately, I really do not know how to do so.
If you confront him, like refusing to do his laundry, or refusing to cook for him etc. you are only going to make him more dangerous (I believe) and of course if you get him fired from his job, he will (as he threatened) burn your house down, so I can’t tell you what to do….you are between the devil and the deep blue sea. Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
He obviously IS IN CONTROL and there is nothing that you can do or anyone can do. The system isn’t going to help and if they DID take him into inpatient program, he will get out eventually and then he will come after you.
WAITING for the “other shoe to fall’ is frustrating and horrible and I know stressing as well. I’m sorry you’re sick, that’s probably from stress itself making you vulnerable. So be as good to yoruself as you can be.
As far as setting “rules” for him, or grounding him, I wouldn’t even bother, you know what the result will be. He IS GOING TO DEFY YOU. So if you don’t set a rule, he can’t defy you.
If he turns 17 in December i think you said, he will most likely, from what you have been saying, drop out of school.
At that point, you can offer him “emancipation” and if it needs to be done “legally” then I would do so, I iimagine the court would go along with you, especially if he has dropped out of school. If he refuses to be “emancipated” I don’t know what to tell you. maybe the problem will be solved when he turns 17 as he will leave.
Frankly, if he does leave, i would arrange to MOVE to somewhere he could not find me. I think he will eventually BOOMERANG BACK as a mooch, it seems many of those like him do. If my own little darling is an example, and yours is like you describe, i think he will always be feeling “entitled” to whatever you have as HIS RIGHT. I have NO doubt mine has hated me since he was 15 or 16 and it has only gotten WORSE not any better. He still holds bitter grudges against me for the few times I WAS able to get control over him by calling the cops. The cops don’t keep them forever though, apparently NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO, so I can’t count on the law, and I wouldn’t advise you to either.
Witsend, I feel for you, and I wish you could just up and leave him and “disappear”—leave him there on his own to sink or swim. God bless you, you are in my prayers! And, you are NOT alone in this experience.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:31pm
witsend says:
persephone7,
Thanks for your reply. I do appreciate it. In reading my own “examples”of my sons behaviour, without going into the real issues, it is easy to interpet his behaviour as good old teenage rebellion. These “actions” speak loudly to such effect. However in previous post I have devulged into some of the more serious issues, and they go beyond his defiant behaviour.
It’s not so much what he presents on the “outside” (defiant attitude) that worries me. It is what he lacks WITHIN himself that REALLY is the core of the problem, I think. He lacks empathy, reasoning, the ability to give or recieve love, ability to really bond (even with his peers), social skills (he uses people for his own gain), he lies consistently (even when there is nothing to gain), has no remorse, and I could continue with more disturbing things…….He is a true, Dr. Jekle, Mr Hide personality. But anytime the “good” side of him does present itself it is always short lived, and for personal gain.
He and I actually went through a program over the summer that was all ABOUT positive consequences for the teenager in trouble. Although it seemed to be a decent program for defiant kids, What seemed to be LOST on him was the fact that he feels SO VERY ENTITLED to everything and anything he wants. (and I don’t mean “monetary” things) This was designed (the program) to seemingly be a win-win situation for the teen involved. For very LITTLE “input” on the teenagers part (small positive behaviour) a very good positive consequence was granted.
He really lives in a “reality” all of his own. And he has been through councelling and the whole 9 yards. He lied the entire time he was in counselling. He was “loosly” diagnosed as Bi Polar & ADHD and was prescribed medication, that he refuses to take.
I believe as his mother as I have witnessed him as a child, (seemed normal until puberty hit) and during puberty, till now……That there are some developemental issues of the brain. (I FIRMLY DO BELIEVE THIS) He is “missing” some things within him that the rest of us take for granted. When I saw these disturbing signs, I took him for help.
The “help” didn’t help and I turned to other avenues. In a short period of time this disorder/illness/??? has escalated and progressed.
The truth of the matter is I am afraid of him. I have seen the “look” in his eyes where no one is home. And God help me, I don’t see anyone I know in those cold, calculating, eyes.
We are unfortunately beyond the point of diets, (although I do believe in the concept that sugar can affect behaviour) and we are beyond the point of effective parenting.
Its more of a survival mode. And my not wanting to “contribute” to this disorder or enable him any more to continue on this destructive path and at the same time be safe in my own home.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 1:05pm
luv716 says:
M.L Gallagher: I read every thing you stated, it make perfect sense to me but HOW? do you stop thinking about what he said, did, didn’t do. How do you stop wondering about what he was thinking, feeling, doing, where he was going, not going, when would he call, not call, turn up, disappear. I spend my energy wondering about him My life is diminishing my joy, happiness, contentment, peace of mind, has totally dissappeared and I don’t know how to get it back. I think about the reality of his presence, I focused on the ‘myth’, the story I believed what he told me was true. I believed his lies.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 1:32pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I know you get it, because you have been there….
And it has come to my attention that every time I post about this, I likely make you re-live your own past pain with your son. I am really sorry for that…..
But you are my ROCK, because you HAVE survived this. I am still trying to CRAWL my miserable way through it.
And I know the stress is making me sick. Last weekend I had a panic attack. I haven’t had one of those for 12 years, since my husband died. I was several hours away from home and I was brought to my knees (in fear) because I couldn’t breath.
My heart was racing, had hot flashes, and I was shaking uncontrolably…..I FORGOT how awful panic attacks can be.
Because of the upper respiratory, I am still unsure if I couldn’t breath because of that and the other symtoms came with the fear of not being able to breath, or if I actually experienced a panic attack. DOESN’T even matter, because it felt like a panic attack. And I don’t want to experience those ever again.
LOOK how long it took me to get to this point????
I never thought I would be here. I HAVE GIVEN up in trying to enforce rules or consequences….All it does is to escalate his anger. And to reinforce him once again that he is IN CONTROL.
I hate the fact that as his parent I am REINFORCING his negativeness……But that is EXACTLY what I was doing by setting rules that where constantly being broken.
I know there is no easy answer…..I just want to get through this. And some days I just don’t know how to do that?
I am not comfortable in my own home & I am not comfortable when I am away from home (working) (panic attacks?) Some days I might as well just be wallpaper on the walls, as I try to just blend in with the woodwork. (these are the GOOD days)
I just don’t see how much longer I can continue to live this way?
He gets matches (from work) and his new pass time (when he is bored must be flicking lit matches accross his room as I find burnt matches all rolled up in his laundry. Seeing as his laundry comes DIRECTLY from the FLOOR of his room, all I can do is assume that he flicks them lit around his room for amusement ?
So now I can’t even feel safe when I finally DO FALL asleep at night.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 1:44pm
Twice Betrayed says:
skylar and Lily: I am also celiac/gluten intolerant. Got sick in Jan of this year and almost checked out after a severe attack Christmas Day. I ate all wrong Christmas and it ravaged my gut. Plus: my final divorce hearing was in Feb and he was fighting me for my home. [I did win] It took me six months to even get on my feet….I could not eat hardly anything. I am also on the gf diet and am doing pretty well again. [cannot take stress at all] My doc told me that chronic stress is a major contributor to this problem. These people destroy us and we have to make our way back slowly. I knew if I did not get out….I was going to die.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 2:03pm
persephone7 says:
witsend: I had a feeling I have not been here enough to know your total situation – wonder how old your son is? But situation with matches is very scary, IS there some way you can live apart?
You’ve probably already explored that – I’ll show my ignorance, but is there an organization like House of Ruth for abused mothers/parents who don’t know where else to turn? Hope and pray
Oxy or someone has answers for you. It sounds like you’ve really tried with the programs and all to do your best as his mother, it definitely sounds like there is a sensitivity chip missing with him
at this point.
I’ll be reading – have to get over this cold myself so I can go back to work tomorrow, my friend may or not call then… Sometimes God seems to send illness or even panic attacks to truly get us to stop and take good care of ourselves, especially when we are on our own. That’s why a place like this is a lifeline so we can at least reach out and say ‘ I really need help’ – and we’re all willing to listen and give help back when we can…
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 2:10pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
FIRST OFF—it does NOT cause me pain in “reliving” my problems years ago with my P-son, believe it or not, I am over all the stress of that. It is like a scary movie I saw once and at the time I was sitting there watching it I was SCARED CHITLESS, but now I can remeember the “movie” but WITHOUT THE EMOTIONS if that makes any sense.
Even this last round of chaos, when I was TERRORIZED, I am over the TERROR and sure, I am cautious, and I know what he is capable of but I DO NOT INTEND TO LIVE IN TERROR.
“The coward dies a 1,000 deaths, the brave man but one.” I can’t remember who said taht but I cannot stand dying every day in terror. Nothing has changed except my VIEWS of it all, my attitude. he still wants to kill me, and I know that, but I am CAUTIOUS but not terrorized.
The MATCHES bit does sound BAD, and I am sure he is doing that to TERRORIZE you. And, obviously it is working. I think in your situation I would also be in terror of this “child”—-and I know you are between a rock and a hard spot with him.
Some way I feel like you MUST GET AWAY FROM HIM, and when I say AWAY, I mean where he can never find you again. I realize this is turning your life UPSIDE DOWN, but at least you will have a LIFE to live, send an e mail to Donna Andersen and ask her to forward it to me. I have an idea that might help you, but I do NOT want to post it on this board. I’m not even sure it would work, but I think you are about at the END of your rope. I hate to be “negative” but I thought from the start that your son and mine are IDENTICAL TWINS only about 20 years difference in their ages.
I agree with persephone that sometimes God does send us a “wake up” call and a panic attack is sure one. I’ve only had one in my life and it was awful! I hope I never have another one. It is sure your body telling you that you are at the end of your strength and rope! Hang on I am praying for you. ((hugs)))
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 2:37pm
recovering says:
Skylar, you’re right when you said responding to a P as if he/she is a normal-feeling human being means we have not really understood the psychological condition….incapable of comprehending normal emotional response in a normal way.
Stayingsane, I too was blown away that telling my ex-N he was a stupid NPD (after he said some wacky stuff to me as if he had no common sense),etc. didn’t register with him emotionally, although he objected to being called a N. Yes, he
has definined me as the crazy one, mentally ill, and yet I too am stilll fascinated that such an entity can ignore all evidence of his own blatant issues…imagine being that insensitive, that selfish, is amazing to me!
My dilemma is he loaned me money for my business during our 1.5-yr. relationship. I have not been physically involved with him for a long enough time because I can resist him as a result of being turned off mentally, but I occasionally feel sad and simply cannot believe someone who seemed intelligent as he did could actually not “be there.”
So I struggle with abandoning him completely — sometimes I answer his calls, sometimes I don’t. He’ll offer to bring me food he cooked for himself and his dad, telling me his dad wanted me to have some food– and I say Ok, but he should leave it on my porch or in my mailbox, and then I don’t see him do the drop off.
I feel somewhat guilty though because I want complete NC in my head, but my empathic side says I at least owe him the courtesy of talking to him (within limits) since I still owe him money. I probably won’t be able to pay him in full until the end of the year since my business is a start-up. I feel in such a bind. He’s been patient and I’ve kept him informed because it is the right thing to do when you owe someone money…but he’ll say, “we can still be friends too…”
I have no doubt he abused me — mentally and spiritually “raped” me — with misleading comments and innuendos/gaslighting/crazy-making, and squeezing me in aggressive ways that hurt, which he said he found pleasure in doing despite my discomfort.
I struggle with feeling that I’m mistreating him/being unfair if I try total NC all times, even with my plans to pay back what I owe him. Fear has less to do with it. It’s more about how I would feel used if someone who owed me money but hadn’t yet paid me but went NC. I’d feel how dare you???
How can I deal with this internally in order to keep the issues separate — I am out of the fog for most part but still healing from realization that relationship was not “real” and feel I am letting go of any idea of us possibly reconciling, yet I talk to him still. I feel reconnected as if I’m obligated to stay in his life somehow (even without wanting sex with him and being able to say no without guilt when he hints or asks directly) due to him helping me at a very crucial time that allowed my business to move to another level.
I was so humbled by this “kindness” on his part — to trust me enough to lend me money and give it all in cash straight from his bank account — when I couldn’t get help from family members whom I previously helped financially. Of course, I did a lot of loving/kind things for my ex-N that money cannot buy — and he acknowledges as much — but I still struggle with feeling I would be betraying him if I didn’t at least allow occasional contact/ mostly by phone (he’s not a computer person like I am).
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 2:58pm
recovering says:
CLARIFICATION — So I struggle with abandoning him completely — sometimes I answer his calls, sometimes I don’t. He’ll offer to bring me food he cooked for himself and his dad, telling me his dad wanted me to have some food– and I say Ok, but he should leave it on my porch or in my mailbox, and then I don’t see him do the drop off.
He does bring the food as he says (often good meals), but I tell him I don’t want face-to-face contact, requesting he just leave it and ring my door bell. (I’m definitely not using him — During our relationship, I was a giver/nurturer in this and many ways with him, even though I don’t do these things like cooking or massages for him now — I mainly talk with him on the phone when time allow, never letting it interfere with my business/personal needs as I’d done in the past).
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 3:07pm
skylar says:
recovering,
It doesn’t sound like he is very dangerous. what do you think? would he poison your food? Or is it just emotional control that he wants? Because you are now very well informed, this could be an opportunity to practice emotional self control. It could make you a stronger person. On the other hand, if he is dangerous, then you are in trouble.
My P-parents are only dangerous to me emotionally. You would not believe how nice they are to me. But I just keep remembering what they are and it helps me stay vigilent. This is not the healthiest environment to be in, but it’s where I am and I have to make the best of it. Perhaps that is your situation too?
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 3:45pm
Easy says:
Witsend
Please take Oxd’s advise to heart! Please!
I woke up , with the P standing in the shadow of my closet of my room! watching me!
I got out of the house!
It really is that serious! I knew by the look on his face and the words he had said that if I did not listen to the warnings I was next!
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 3:46pm
recovering says:
skylar — thanks for your comments. I agree that he doesn’t seem very dangerous, but I did consider whether he might try to poison the food — I sometimes turn down his offer — he’s been doing it knowing that I work hard/alot of hours running my business, so he’ll call to remind me to eat.
I think you’re right he wants emotional control and that this could be an opportunity for me to practice emotional self- control that would make me a stronger person, as you said.
Thank you very much!
skylar, regarding your “P-parents being only dangerous” to you emotionally, you said “You would not believe how nice they are to me.” I really get that, because I sometimes ask why my ex-N has been going so out of his way — since I’m setting clearer boundaies — to seem thoughtful.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 4:27pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I did send an email to Donna asking her to forward my information to you.
I am virtually between a rock and a hard place when it comes to my house and being able to sell it, even if I chose to move away.
The house that I live in was my moms and when she passed away I inherited the house but my 2 kids also inherited 1/8 each of this place. They were suppose to inherit some money. But since we chose to live in the house rather than “sell” it, there was no money. On paper the way it works is all our names are on the title.
I can’t sell it until my youngest is of LEGAL age 18 years old.
I would like to hear what idea is. I don’t know that I am yet prepared to leave everything I own (which isn’t much but all I ‘got) behind BUT I do know that there might come a time when I might do just that if I felt it to be the only choice I have.
I never in a million years would have guessed that I would be where I am today, afraid of my own son and what he might do. So I have learned NEVER say NEVER.
It is always good to at least have a back up plan. and maybe that is why I do feel so vulnerable…..Because I don’t have one.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 4:57pm
Twice Betrayed says:
skylar: good post=emotional control.
You know; I have a good friend that has helped me greatly in breaking free buuuuut…..something about him bugs me to death and angers me at times. He is nice, kind, helpful etc….but there is still that subliminal feeling I get from him that really bothers me. He wants to hang around with me all the time and I don’t want/need that. See: he wanted to marry me several years ago as I was breaking free but I made it clear we are ONLY friends and that is all we will ever be. He accepted this, at least on the surface. He frustrates me sometimes with his anal habits until I blow a fuse and just have to distance myself. I am just not quiet putting my finger on it….until you mentioned emotional control….
He was especially helpful when I was in need of pulling out and healing..but now I am free and want to have fun and he always wants to hang with me…but he drags me down by being anal and a wet blanket. He does all this so covertly I am sometimes unaware of what is going on. I feel like he is sabotoging my progress to keep me from moving past him. Comments everyone?
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 5:01pm
kim frederick says:
TB, It sounds like he wants to keep you emotionally dependant on him.
Although I had pretty good parents, one thing I think my mom did that wasn’t really good for me, was only really being there for my unhappiness, or my failures. It seemed like she neglected my successes, accomplishments, and happiness. I think she feared my growing up, and was trying to hold on by keeping me dependant on her. I hope this helps.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 5:55pm
persephone7 says:
Tomorrow I’ll be back at work, but for today, I’m checking in to get my ‘medicine’ as it were…But really, isn’t a common thread for all of us that we’ve chosen to entertain a day-to-day relationship with these people who turn out to be emotional vampires? Are our lives not interesting enough? Are we out for some kind of punishment? Do we think that somehow God is giving us points for our continued pain? Do we get some kind of interior payback from seeing how f**ked up they (and then WE) can be?
Most of my friends are overall happy people, good to their spouses, don’t cheat, good to their children, eat healthy, play sports, volunteer their time to worthy causes. Why do I continue to have this kind of ’secret side’ to me? A side that says I can’t sustain a normal, happy relationship or at least screen out someone right away who is destructive to my well-being? It seems like most of us here (maybe different from our friends, maybe not) have had some kind of prior abuse, either as kids with our own families (whom we don’t ‘choose’ unless you do believe we come into this life ‘choosing’ to have certain life lessons with the people,including family in our lives). So I’m thinking of feelings I’ve had before similar to those posted by recovering – I know because of a past marriage that terrorized me and now this current crazy relationship, that I should not deny being leery of anyone, boyfriend or otherwise – who makes me uneasy or pushes old buttons – for good reason. I’m all for working past irrational fears to be a stronger person, but why should we have to have an excuse (even if you owe someone money like recovering, you can make it a strictly on-paper, I’ll meet my obligation kind of thing) to feel comfortable, COMFORTABLE and SAFE with those we let into our everyday lives right NOW. I think recovering has a right to, without having to explain it to us or this person, to have a clean slate, not have to worry about being a Nice Person (sounds like you already are…) and just go on like Erin B. says, just putting one foot in front of the other and trusting instincts when someone makes, or has made you feel UNCOMFORTABLE.
I know I have to remember to just appreciate what trials God’s given me. I know I can change or in a way, RECLAIM myself – I remember my daughter (who was about 11 at the time) seeing me reading “Courage to Change” stretched out on my bed. I was crazy to see what I could do to live with a man who was an alcoholic-it lasted a year…She said, Mom, you don’t need to change, you’re FINE just the way you are!’ And though that probably wasn’t quite true and I still need work, sometimes we get so caught up in other people’s problems and personas that we start to lose our own true character, everything that was fine and noble. So now I know in my own gut what I’ve gone through, all of us has our own internal journal that is unique – and I think we can all give ourselves points that we’re willing to be selfish in good ways now, in a way that we can just say ‘all things must pass’ if we make healthy choices now. Life is challenging enough with what comes our way unexpectedly without inviting trouble or someone else’s extra baggage. I’m praying that I can follow through with these thoughts myself.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 6:12pm
skylar says:
persphone,
it is ineresting that you chose the words “’secret side’ to me”. Because that seems to be a recurring thread with sociopaths AND their supply.
Example: my exP was living 2 lives, the veneer he polished of an eccentric inventor/pilot with a wife and God only knows what kind of drug dealing pervert etc…
One of the ways that predators isolate their victims is by telling them a “secret”. Or getting them to engage in illegal or clandestine activity. Forcing the victim to live a dual life too. This is very common.
But, I remember that as a kid, I also liked living a dual life – except I did it out in the open. I went to private schools. But when I left school all dressed in my preppy clothes, I would hitchhike all over the city and the suburbs. I knew that this looked very strange, to see a girl dressed as I was – in smart, preppy clothing, walking down the street hitchhiking every day like a street punk. That was my dual life. I met lots of strange/interesting people this way. It entertained me to create this juxtaposition of images in the light of day. Everyone saw me do this every day for 2 years. That’s why when the green river killer picked me up and propositioned me, I bitched him out. How dare he NOT see what I WANTED him to see? How dare he percieve me as a prostitute? LOL.
I’m seeing that the dual/secret life aspect keeps popping up in the lives of narcissism. I wonder why?
Persephone, I’ve also found myself looking at other people – my whole life – and noticing how “normal” they are and never feeling that way about myself. I remember thinking that they must be bored to death being so normal. I noticed Witsend mentioned her son had said this, too. Now I long for boring and normal, but when I met the P I was 17 and I liked the excitement he brought to everything. But I never imagined what he really was – an evil predator whose sole pleasure in life is murder by suicide.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:20pm
recovering says:
persephone7: you make many good points — the issue of nice-ness. I definitely was trained for co-dependency due to some abuse and being an “invisible” child who had to take on adult responsibilities in an “alcoholic” family-of-origin. I have been working on Co-D recovery for years. I am making progress because as I find myself increasingly uninterested in tolerating someone’s company when they’re spewing non-sense.
Thank you all for great insights in the posts here. I feel more positive reinforcement in ways to continue NC on my terms, and I am seeing more clearly that I can continue emotional withdrawal/ practicing detachment despite still owing money to my ex-N.
Interestingly, I
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:34pm
recovering says:
The rest of what I was going to write: Interestingly, I have begun to feel more peaceful and firm in saying no consistently when he out of the blue asks for physical contact — so that’s one thing I do not feel obligated to do just because I owe him money. Mainly, I’ve felt obligated not to always be “cold” by at least talking on the phone sometimes when he calls — and sometimes I just don’t answer the phone. Occasionally when I’ve called him, I keep realizing that I really don’t have much I want to say to him anymore, so the calls have gotten shorter and more infrequent from my end.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 8:56pm
persephone7 says:
recovering: you sound like you’re living up to your name here…actually, it’s great you have your own business! And you sound like your own feelings are getting more ironed out to where you can just focus on what you feel like doing at the moment, putting your own needs first. Whenever I choose to just get busy with my own art and business (I do have my own self-employed status other than my other job) I feel more confident and focused and happy – doing what I love! And that seems to be the best medicine of all when you can just think about the task at hand and not OBSESS. And when you’re not obsessing, there’s room for that peaceful feeling, which is healing in itself.
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Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 11:00pm
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, haven’t been posting in months and am starting the N o contact phase again and i literally feel like im detoxing, just like when i quit drinking. I just hope this passes and it feels like physical withdrawal like im drawn to make contact and i can’t see him for the bad guy. i was diagnosed with the Stockholm syndrome in a Trauma program which explains not being able to see him for what he really is and denial and questioning myself but it’s so dam frustrating to say the least. The self doubt gets stronger i’ve found the longer i’ve continued to be in denial. love kindheart im praying to God to remove the obsession but it’s minute by minute right now.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 9:28am
shabbychic says:
Hi kindheart! So very good to hear from you! How is your father? Sorry if you already wrote about that and I missed it. I think you can see the P/S for exactly what he is, you wrote about every crappy thing he has done, don’t let this diagnosis put you in denial, get out of the fog and face the truth, of course it hurts… but at least there is a light at the end of the tunnel, if you stay… there is always hurt — it never stops. Why don’t you try journaling (like Edna did in the latest article) put down what’s happening in black and white so you don’t forget, write your conversations down and write your feelings about it. Don’t give up, you can do it, the “detox’ phase will pass!!! I’ve done exactly the same thing you are describing, start feeling good about yourself again, don’t let the self doubt take over, you know him for what he is, you don’t have to be with someone who doesn’t respect you, or take care of you, or love you — as you have written in the past, he only loves himself.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 10:26am
Twice Betrayed says:
kim frederick:
Good point, Kim, and I think you are correct. Yeah, what you said about your mom is so true of this friend. But, you know what, I always tell this friend he is just like being around my mom! Now I understand why. Just exactly what you said about always being there to lift you up….but they don’t want you to really soar. I understand…but, it’s like I told him-in your own way you are keeping me in a box too. Hmmm, passive manipulation. I get it. Thanks, Kim!
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 10:39am
skylar says:
ugh, I’m on the phone with the P right now.
I wish I could let you all hear.
He wants me to sign papers he wants money. I had imagined that I could at least feel sorry for him. But he is such a slimey disgusting creep, it’s hard to even care for him at all.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 10:53am
Twice Betrayed says:
Kindheart, I am fairly new here. Couple of months. But, not new to what you are going thru. The NC is vital to breaking the obsessive pull. Create a life quote and stick with it. Mine was/is: “He does not love me; love does not abuse, lie, cheat and abandon.” Keep this quote in your memory and when the thoughts occur repeat it over and over until it becomes your rebuttal. This reminder and NC will overpower the obsessive thoughts, the oppression/obsession will gradually subside and you will grow free. It’s also important to replace HIS wharped value system with one of YOUR own and nuture it. As YOUR values and personality began to grow, along with NC [very important!] you will slowly break the toxic bond. Best wishes and understanding hugs to you!!!
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 10:55am
Twice Betrayed says:
recovering: I’d say you ‘earned’ that money you ‘borrowed’. I’d chalk that up to the life you got sucked out of you by this P and figure he just paid up.
I’d go NC for my own health. If you feel obligated to pay the money back…then do so when you are able, but in the meantime…I would not allow him to hold this club over my head. Cut him out of your life totally and then when able send the money to him. That’s what I would do. 
Remember: they always do nice things in the hooking phase. You are kidding yourself [IMO] thinking you can always keep him in this phase and that you can keep control. You cannot walk thru crap w/o getting some on you. Impossible.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 11:06am
Twice Betrayed says:
skylar: “I had imagined that I could at least feel sorry for him.”
OH NO! Don’t let him play the sympathy card!! You know that’s one of their main aces….:)
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 11:09am
shabbychic says:
sky, of course it’s hard to care for him at all, he’s a velociraptor like the rest of them.
http://images.search.yahoo.com.....=11shc6caa
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 11:14am
shabbychic says:
kindheart… are you still here?
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 12:05pm
Stayingsane says:
Skylar
all you need to do is feel it…the disgusting slimy creepiness of him…listen to his words, feel the vibes and I repsect your need for excitement and creative dual aspects of yourself…but in the quest for challenge and excitement do we deserve to run into them? they are all that is anti life, creativity and challenge yet for wanting a more interesting life we end up in the grip of a psychopath….nah there has to be more to it than that! they are possibly the most boring group on the planet..there is nothing there…run for your life
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 3:08pm
kindheart48 says:
shabby , thanks for asking but my dad passed away in july. I went out to the beach today as his ashed were scattered where he spent alot of his time fishing and hunting and im grieving even though we had no relationship. He had a huge wake with shotgun salute, piper, so many people as he was very well liked but he didn’t know how to relate to his family but i still think back to when i was a child and even though he was n’t there for me emotionally he still loved me. Im going through alot of turmoil as my stepmother gets 2 years on the family farm(still in my grandmas name and i cared for her and am the executor of her will) but my dad left his 1/3 to a longtime friend to dispurse and he’s a bully and is basically blackmailing me into doing things that are not part of my grandmothers will as my dad left my alcoholic brother (who is living paying only 250 in a side built on the shop)and complaining about how much he can’t afford. Any contact with my brother, or this executor of my dad’s invites pain so i’ve been trying to have no contact realizing that i have alot of toxic people beside the sociopath. I’ve been letting things ride for now but it was very stressful, my brother trying to keep me from my dad and stepmother letting them think i was going to upset him as they tried to get me to sign a couple waivers without legal advice signing away basically my inheritance fr my grandmother and i wouldn’t go along with it. I know my dad was being influenced by my brother so i don’t hold it against him but it sure took a toll on me. My weight is at an alltime low and my son left for the military in Montreal so i have not a dependent to my name. I really enjoyed the drive to the beach in my little convertible more than i thought as i m so not used to doing anything alone. Im tempted to try and make peace with my brother but i know it’s exactly the same result i get with the socio, i always expect that they will be caring and decent and im always end up feeling hurt. I sang my heart out on the way out to the beach and was thinking how stressed and anxious i have been for 7 years consecutively around the socio and wondering why the hell i would put myself through that torture of ptsd. Glad to be back on this site as i know how caring everyone on here is and nonjudemental as i have been doing what they talk about in aa , def of insanity, doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. God has given me many blessings and i want to enjoy my life and be happy , but i know i have alot of hard work ahead of me but i know im worth it. I have alot to offer someone but just not now. love to all of you kindheart.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 4:57pm
kindheart48 says:
Twice, i am going to write what you said down as i know it is the truth as hard as it is to accept and i will read it when i get the urge, thanks again. kindheart
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 5:00pm
Twice Betrayed says:
kindheart: I do understand. I went thru the same thing…most of us have. It’s so hard, I know. (((((((hugs))))) But….it is possible and I am here to testify it can be done. I remember just six months ago wondering if I could feel again…I just felt numb. Now….I feel so good… I never would have believed I could ever feel this good in my life. Hang in there….it’s so worth it.
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Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 11:39pm
kindheart48 says:
hi guys, yes round and round it goes but i am having fleeting thought s of being with a normal caring man and even though im far from a relationship i thin k we get so far off balance where the turmoil, chaos, mistrust, paranoia all become normal and decent normal men become boring. I’ve been looking at the socio and admitting that every step of the way he has been so toxic to me, never ever got confortable with him , walking on eggshells, a reall downer and i like to have fun. I don’t know what pulls us to these types because there is so little good but iknow there are alot of dynamics behind how they snare us , i just want him out of my headspace and it’s not going to happen overnight. I went to an aa meeting last night and shared about this obsession to a person and most could relate well and one gentleman i’ve know since rehab over 6 years ago talked to me after meeting. I remember his story of getting sober and seeing a therapist woman who manipulated him when he was so vulnerable. She had him thnking they were going to have a relationship, kids, white picket fence etc. and at the end he tried committing suicide as i rem going to visit him in the hospital. He said it dam near killed him and before the suicide attempt , he was like me, trying everything to get rid of the obsession, priests, you name it. He never did have her reprimanded and is just grateful to have overcome it. One of the socio’s ex girlfriends told me once that he had her fooled and she was a therapist of sorts and that he was highly toxic were her exact words and wife 1 and 2 the same treated them terribly so how can i deny the truth. One thought i just had is i know i have an extremely forgiving nature and i think it’s to my detrement especially in this case, turning the other cheek is very ingrained in me. Writing people out of my life is not something that comes naturally but i just did it recently with a toxic gf, she’s now visiting and moved in my next door neighbour who was becoming my friend and drinking there regularly. Seems i have these people left and right but i know it’s a small town and that when they aren’t in your head , you won’t be as apt to run into them or let it bother you. What really gets my goat is the thinking that he is treating the other woman better than me when i know deep down it’s not even about her, it’s only how she makes him feel. I think he takes her to dinner and would never take me and why , that crazy crappola when in reality it would be so uncomfortable to go anywhere and dine with the moron, as he takes potato chips even to high class restaurants , thinks he’s entitled to do whatever and people just look at him like he’s nuts but he thinks it’s good attention. How did i get so off the beaten path, my ex husband was so refined, im sitting here shaking my head at the thought . Whe n i look at the differences between them it’s shocking. Thanks to you all for welcoming me back as this site is my saviour . love kindheart
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 8:49am
Twice Betrayed says:
kindheart: Hey, don’t even sweat what performance he’s giving the new gal. One thing to always keep in mind: EVERYTHING is a game. It’s all an illusion made to show ‘yep, she’s the one that can do it for me!’. Just hang and watch….it will go up in smoke. In the meantime….work on YOU…cause YOU are the only way out. YOU got into this toxic waste dump …tell it, Hey, this is about ME…ME getting out of this. It’s NO LONGER about HIM>..it’s about ME. This is one time it’s not only ok, it’s vital you think about YOU! [these people are after our souls/minds/lives] If you are forgiving [and that is one of our good traits...and it is good]…forgive him, but forgiveness does NOT mean we have to associate with these people. Clear things in YOUR mind, set YOUR value system, get a plan and carry it out. See it thru. It’s hard, but not impossible. Once you are free and look back….you will see all the smoke and mirrors and wonder how in the world you got into that situation. All the cards are on the table, the masks are pulled off him and all you see now is: the ugly reality of who he really is. And you are free. I say all this not to boss you or any reason but to encourage you to know it can be so.
:):)
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 1:14pm
Twice Betrayed says:
kindheart: I also understand about wanting to have fun and adventure. And your statement….normal men seem boring. You know, I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Is it normal men seem boring or so many men ARE boring? And the P sees this and tones his edge walking down some to make us think they are just fun loving, adventure seeking guys. In reality they are always edge walking and over… What we are really seeking is guys like us. Middle of the road guys…ones with a sense of fun and adventure but with self control and values. Gosh, they must exist somewhere. Don’t you think?
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 2:50pm
skylar says:
TB,
I’m starting to think that N-supply and N’s are very similar in their need for excitement. The only difference is that we also have empathy and they don’t. That’s why we are supply. We keep looking for N’s because we ARE supply.
In my conversation with “normal, nice” guys. I notice they talk about food, movies, the weather. They don’t get excited and they don’t get me very excited. On occasion, they will lapse into some juicy gossip and my interest peaks.
For example, the man who told me about learning to act boring, was listening to me rant about my ExP. Then suddenly he says: I was stalked last week. and proceeded to tell me about the neighbor girl etc… Suddenly, I was more interested in his conversation, than when he tells me about his triatholon (what is there to tell, right? swim, run, bike, wash, rinse, repeat).
My other friend is very nice, but, I can’t even remember what we talk about. I think I do all the talking about N’s and P’s. Then he started to tell me about some juicy gossip that involved a P. THAT, I remember.
I’m learning to appreciate BORING. Boring is the new “exciting” for me. When I see boring I say, “Wow! look at that boring guy, I’d like to know what make HIM tick.”
I’m not even being funny, it’s true. I already know what makes a P tick – it’s become old hat now. I really want to know what boring people do for fun. How do they keep from going crazy with boredom? It’s interesting.
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 3:14pm
justabouthealed says:
TB…I’ve mentioned the book before, The New Personality Self-Portrait: Why You Think, Work, Love and Act the Way You Do (Paperback)…written by a guy with great credentials.
Anyway, it explains that WITHOUT going over into the territory of personality disorder, some people are more oriented toward adventure, toward relationships, etc. So you might find it interesting. For each personality type, it also tells the disorder that happens when it is in the extreme.
My husband and I recognize that I crave more excitement and change than he does, and that emotional stuff is more important to me than to him, but also that ironically he is more of a rule breaker than I am, etc. The book helped me appreciate the ways my “quiet husband” actually is rather daring at times….like when he has jumped into to help women being assaulted, regardless of the risk to him physically, how he stood up to a cop who was beating someone,etc.
So you might enjoy that book. It also has exercises on how to mitigate against the negatives of your personality traits.
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 5:03pm
justabouthealed says:
I meant that for you too Skylar!
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 5:04pm
skylar says:
Jah,
it’s on my list now. thanks.
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 5:06pm
Twice Betrayed says:
skylar: I hear you loud and clear about the boring guys talking about food/movies/weather. Hey, I can take it if they don’t off into some 360 degree story…*yawn. I just like to have a guy that can: 1. Hold an interesting conversation on something such as history, travel, heck, even politics is better than…thinking they are the weatherguy. Tee, hee. 2. Is not more interested in whether his pants are matching his belt and the ONLY thing he gets out of a movie/theater etc is: was their clothing color scheme correct OR dinner: his food plate must have a certain degree of color and it must be arranged just so [SCREAM!] [my friend]…OR one who has no sense of style[my PX]. My friend is SO anal and forgetful/confused I call him: “Starched Confusion.” Ahahahahaha! Just a middle of the road guy….he does not have to skydive or race in the Indy 500. But, at least know what those are.
And….can do something w/o being directed every dang second….and does not inhale and exhale exactly as I do. [another SCREAM!] ahahahaha! *off soapbox.
justabouthealed: thanks for the book referral. I will try that one too. I guess I need one that is about: How to give someone a personality.” BWAHAHAHAHA! I can make jokes about most anything and entertain myself…but sometimes, it would be nice to have a guy that can cut a joke w/o having to have me run for the spotlight.
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 6:08pm
kim frederick says:
Twice, You’re in rare form tonight. Starched confusion.Ha! I used to call my XP, Don Juannabe. I’m so glad I can laugh about it,now!
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 7:14pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Kim: Now that is funny!!!!!! I laughed outloud at Don Juannabe. Good one! It is nice to laugh about them now, isn’t it? I love it!!!!
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Thursday, 24 September 2009 @ 7:56pm
candyharlau says:
The one year injunction ended two weeks ago. i expect a call or email. my nerves are a little on edge. i often wonder just how he will approach me, for i know he will. ‘i want my stuff.’ “give me my stuff.”
i noticed that my anxiety level has been incredibly high lately. have enough stressors with just the day-to-day. i do feel that i’m ok to handle ‘the monster.’ i certainly hope i’m strong the day it happens. i still believe NC is best, by phone or email…if i see him, i believe it would be best to turn and walk away, as if he wasn’t there. no emotions whatsoever.
i guess i’m worried….because of this, he is creeping back in my mind again, and i’m trying to push it away/let it flow thru and go.
his very existence disgusts me. how did i know he was lying? he was awake or he was talking.
I wonder what his Halloween costume will be? maybe he can dress-up his d**k, or ….
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 3:43pm
kim frederick says:
Candy, or go as a man?
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 4:01pm
skylar says:
So exP is bothering me to go sign some papers at a law office entitling him to half of everything I own. when hell freezes over… but I don’t really think he has any such papers. I think it’s a ruse. The ruse is his specialty, but I wonder what he really wants…
He won’t say which law office, just that it’s in Everett. You would think he could just have the papers faxed to me or sent as a PDF. Then I could read them over.
I’m considering using this as an opportunity to tell him that Satan doesn’t exist. It’s just his emotionally arrested development making him feel like a reptile. His reptile brain creates all the chaos and it feels like he is possessed by evil because it feels so ancient. He might explode in a rage. It is certain to cause a crises. What if I don’t reference him at all. What if I just say, that I have been doing this research for my own purposes and allow him to believe I don’t see that he is evil? He is stupid enough to believe it.
Has anyone ever tried anything like this on a P? The fact is, he isn’t going to stop bothering me because he is running out of money and supply. I might as well develop a strategy of some sort. Not sure what it will get me other than satisfaction and buy me some time while the information is sinking in to his reptile brain.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 4:26pm
OxDrover says:
SKYLAR,
Strategy? STOP TALKING TO HIM COMPLETELY. IF HE CALLS, DON’T ANSWER, IF HE E MAILS, (KEEP IT) BUT DON’T READ, IF HE TEXTS, DON’T ANSWER…..NC EXCEPT THROUGH YOUR LAWYER. PERIOD, END OF STRATEGY.
IT IS THE ONLY STRATEGY THAT WILL WORK.
As long as you LISTEN, he will keep on. It will still be in your head. You CANNOT convince him he is a reptile, any mroe than you could convince a pit viper it is a reptile, they dont’ have enough brain to grasp what they are.
WHY do you think you can “manipulate” him? Can’t be done. DISENGAGE completely. Do what you ahve to do and do it THROUGH YOUR ATTORNEY. PROTECT YOURSELF. FORGET ABOUT HIM!
NO CONTACT!!!! NONE, ZIP, ZERO, NADA–NONE!!!!
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 4:56pm
skylar says:
I don’t have an attorney nor the money for one.
I answered the phone one time, but otherwise he just sends emails. The fact that he has not contacted me for months and now is starting to means that he has a strategy cooked up. I know him well enough to know that. The “campfire” story he emailed me was cooked up while he was camping in the mountains during the summer. So I know that he has been thinking about me and plotting his next step. I just want to be one step ahead, or at least divert him. Being boring and NC isn’t going to work since his 25 years of planning to kill me and inherit the house have left him looking like a fool, especially infront of the P neighbors whom he told of his plan. Now they are laughing at him and he knows it. I’ve caused him another narcissistic injury by being alive. I’m going to have to pay.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:03pm
kim frederick says:
Skylar, have you considered Legal Aid? Didn’t you say that everything is in your name? Why are you even engaging in his BS? I’m sure I don”t have any legal advise, but I think Oxy’s right. NC! You can’t reason, you can’t win.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:14pm
witsend says:
Skylar,
Do you by chance have a university near by where they have students that study law? Sometimes you can get some free services through these types of places.
Does he actually have any legal rights to the property if his name isn’t on the deed?
Actually it would be good to know what the laws are and what laws would be in your favor?
So even if the students at the university couldn’t represent you maybe they could give you information so you could at least know where you STAND with the law.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:20pm
witsend says:
Skylar,
you don’t have to have contact with him at all about this….But you would be one step ahead, if and when this is something that would go to court.
You know doing your “Erin b.” work. Having all your documents and paperwork ready and waiting.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:23pm
skylar says:
Kim,
I haven’t engaged him yet. I tried legal aid, and they referred me to a lawyer who was convinced that my P is a spy! Can you believe it? LOL. Maybe the lawyer is also a P and just wanted to be jerk about it. I can’t imagine that a grown man and attorney can’t discern a con man from a spy.
There was another lawyer, but she never returned my call. Since then I just ran out of steam. Really my xP doesn’t likely have a case because it is my house. But he is delusional, so he may try some crap. Most likely, he is actually using this as a diversionary tactic, to accomplish something else. That’s how they operate. His main target will be my emotions and fear.
My main case might be to sue the camano island police for actually helping him with his con and for refusing to speak with me when I requested their help. I think they are hiding from me hoping I’ll go away. They know they screwed up.
The freak is another charles manson, but instead of recruiting hippies, he recruits cops.
I will not engage him, but I want to be prepared for whatever comes down the pike, and I can see it coming. I do want him to self-destruct. When he comes for me I’m going straight for the ego. Knowledge is power.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:23pm
skylar says:
supposedly a couple who cohabitates in washington state is considered married after 7 years. But I bought the house before we lived together and then I reported my income as RENT (from him) on my taxes. He never files taxes so he has no proof of any income. He never works either so how can he say that he paid for my home? He paid rent and I paid for my home.
Furthermore, if he wants half my house I want half the helicopter. He must know all this so, the only thing he could be going for is an emotional/fear response. He is trying to get me to spend money on lawyers I guess.
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Friday, 25 September 2009 @ 5:28pm
Stayingsane says:
Skylar
I agree with Ox Drover
As long as you LISTEN, he will keep on. It will still be in your head. You CANNOT convince him he is a reptile, any mroe than you could convince a pit viper it is a reptile, they dont’ have enough brain to grasp what they are.
Get clear of him. Clean him out of your head and your life. That’s the only strategy. If you take him on at a legal level then be sure to have enough support, knowledge, documentation, proof, evidence,time, energy, persistence,backup, legwork…….is it worth it? what’s the price on your health, wellbeing, space for a new life ?
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 8:20am
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
The Bible has some good advice on this lsubject (you stressing out over what his “next” move will be.) [Paraphrased] “don’t worry about tomorrow, today has enough problems in itself.”
I’m not an attorney either, but first off—HE IS DELUSIONAL, he has no claim to your property—and he obviously doesn’t have enough money for a lawyer either, so he is just trying to FREAK YOU OUT, and guess WHAT?!!! HE’S DOING IT!!!
WHY IS HE ABLE TO FREAK YOU OUT? Cause he can, because YOU ARE ALLOWING IT—
STOP!!!!! Every time you find thoughts of what he is up to creeping into your brain HOLD UP THE STOP SIGN IN YOUR HEAD and wave him away!
He can’t get your property but he’s apparently DESPERATE, so he is trying another con on you.
THAT IS WHAT IS GOING ON….just another CON job that only works if 1) you listen 2) you worry and 3) you are frightened and comply with him out of FEAR.
NO FEAR=NO DAMAGE TO YOU, NO FEAR=NO GAIN FOR HIM.
Remember the song “I’m gonna wash that man right out’a my hair?” Well google the lyrics and learn it and sing it every time thoughts of him come into your mind! (((hugs))))
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 11:03am
Easy says:
LET GO LET GOD
it is really that simple!
of course easyer said than done BUT NC is the first step!
Try not to provide free room and board in your mind for a free-loader ! please
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 2:24pm
skylar says:
Oxy,
I do need to remember your words: CON JOB. It’s ALWAYS a con job. Using the right hand to distract you from what the left hand is doing.
I’ve noticed that my P-father always changes the rules midstream. He is aware of how the con artist works, so, just to be safe he will change directions in whatever business deal he starts. It throws the potential conartist off balance. No harm done if there wasn’t a con, but if there was, it gets diverted. He has never told me this but in retrospect, I’ve seen it many times. He always comes out smelling like a rose.
Easy,
I know, I do let God. But God, Himself decided to throw me into this P-world. He has something for me to learn. I was blind (perhaps by God’s will) for 25 years. I don’t want to miss the next class.
Ohhhhhh, I just thought of a recurring dream I’ve had for years and years: I dream of going to a new school and I can’t find the classroom and I keep missing the class. I get there just when it’s ending and run to the next class only to get lost again and missing each class all day. could that have been my subconcious calling me an idiot? LOL.
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 3:33pm
jillsmith says:
I need some help and support with no contact.
I have recently been analyzing my moods. I feel overwhelmed, hopeless and triggered when I go to old friends’ blogs who are also friends with my ex. On the blogs, they sometimes mention my exS or put a picture of him on the blog. It’s a sick connection I keep with my exS. I tried to deny that this is why I check out their blogs, as they were also friends of mine, who I’m only not friends with because of No Contact. However, this is a lie I tell myself. I go to their blogs to find out about my ex, remember him and that life. It’s sick and I decided to stop.
I have been very good about No Contact for the past week. I have not gone to one of these blogs once. However, I am finding myself getting weak. I almost started my blog reading and stopped myself. I need some support to stay strong. It sounds innocent enough and may sound like not that big of a risk, but when I see pictures of my ex, comments by my ex or words about my ex, my downward spiral begins all over again. It has taken me a long time to realize this and it is this thread that has helped me to realize this destructive behavior.
So, I’m telling you guys that I have stayed away from any mention of my ex or reading about him or his friends for 7 days now. May I report to you every now and again, so I give myself some accountability for this addiction? I need some encouragement with this to stay strong. I don’t know why it’s so hard. He truly was/is an addiction.
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 3:34pm
learnthelesson says:
jill -
You are doing a great of job NO CONTACT! Congratulations for taking this stand FOR YOURSELF. Many of us have been where you are, and its a place you have to get to yourself…being ready to admit what a particular weakness is – and wanting to become stronger! Way to go!
One of things I have learned along the way is…. focus on the people who are close to you, who love you, who are like you. Try very hard to accept that THIS IS what you should be doing in order to receive peace and comfort and a sense of self worthiness!!
I, too, would “peek” when I was either down and out, or bored or just curious. And I, too, would be triggered and upset and moody after I saw things. Eventually I decided — hey this is not a person that (a) is good in any way for my life/livlihood and (b) this person doesnt have what it takes to keep a good woman in his life, so why am I so caught up in (what I now refer to him as) a Loser “S”… I gain nothing from knowing anything about him or his life. And half the time anything I read was either him lying to others or pretending to be “living the dream”… so bottom line is when you are ready you too will also accept that this is the only time when “NO MORE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS DECEITFUL LIFE IS POWERFUL”…
Bring yourself up by visiting LF blogs, and staying in touch with the real people in your life who truly matter most. Sometimes its not exciting or even fun, and other times really terrific things start to happen just by changing your ways and committing to it and best of all you surround yourself with real and honest and trusting people! You deserve to let go of your Loser S too!!!!!!! Stay strong! Change your thoughts…change your life! (Thanks to ML Gallagher for that quote!
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Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 4:03pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Jill:
Learned it right on……
I wrestle with it too……I draw back at times and feel a relief…..then when I have to gain more info….location, recon type stuff, I have to separate my emotions out from the requirement of finding out where he is to serve him, piece of mind that he is not lurking in my town etc….
I have to say…..with each day/month/year……I really do not give a shit about his ‘new life’….I KNOW the reality, I never doubted it…..I know whoever/wherever/whenever he comes into contact with someone……it’ll be the same gig….same high falutant stories I heard for years, same fantastic portrayal of himself as god, same old same old……his life is shit! I KNOW THIS! He will always have to keep moving……becautse his mask doesn’t fit right….and it slips…..there will always be someone willing to be swept up by him……but it will always be a temporary thing…..
THIS IS MY SATISFACTION…..
in addition to the fact I will never let him in MY life again! EVER…..ON ANY LEVEL!
Once I am done with my legal crap, he can go sink to the bottom of the pond with the rest of the bottom feeders…..but for now…..I will remain diligent in my tracking him for my legal purposes……it is much cheaper than a PI!
And it cracks me up the people he trusts…..that feed me info……HA…what an idiot!
I have to say there are times when I must let it go, take a break tofeel better not having ANYTHING to do with him in my life…..and sometimes I just let go of it all…….
I do it by keeping busy and eventually the days go bye and weeks and then it pops into my mind……when I ‘hear’ something like….he may be visiting etc…..or where he is working or living……or another move….I have to get back on it……
I would rather know where he is than not……I think it would throw me into a frenzy if he just showed up here…….anxiety hellllooooo!
It is a balance….if you have no other reason but curiosity…..let it go……
Your being good at being honest with your motives of doing it…..I commend you for this healthy thinking…..
If it doesn’t feel good…..don’t do it!
You can remain strong…….each time you think of doing a check up…..come to LF…..instead…..go for a walk…..redirect your thinking……it will get easier…..
It’s like a diet…..if we focus on what we cant’ have or do…..we want it all the more…..remove the focus.
Replace it with something healthy for YOU!
It WILL get easier….YOU HAVE SUPPORT GIRL!
Take it one step at a time!!!!
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 4:24pm
OxDrover says:
Dear JIll,
Congratulations for being SELF AWARE enough to know why you go to these blogs, and for KNOWING and recognizing that it is a TRIGGEr and hurts YOU, not him when you do this.
Those people are NOT your “friends”—-a FRIEND is someone WHO supports you and not someone you “know” or “hung out with”—these people may only be his DUPES and he may have just fooled them, but THEY ARE TOXIC TO YOU.
Listening to anything about him is toxic to you, and YOU RECOGNIZED THIS—-CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN!
STAY STRONG!!! YOU CAN DO IT! 7 DAYS IS A GREAT START!
Just take it one day at a time, and each time you start to CRAVE knowledge about him, just think of it like you are hooked on coke, or meth, you KNOW IT IS BAD FOR YOU, AND YOU CAN STAY AWAY FROM IT FOR YOUR BABY’S SAKE.
I am proud OF you, Jill, and proud FOR you! this is a BIG step in your road to recovery and peace! (((((hugs))))) Love Oxy
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 5:10pm
recovering says:
To persephone7 (from your comment Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 11:00pm)
Thank you for your kind words: “recovering: you sound like you’re living up to your name here…actually, it’s great you have your own business!” You are right that I am focusing on owning my feelings and putting my own needs first. I also agree with what you said: “When you’re not obsessing, there’s room for that peaceful feeling, which is healing in itself.”
To Twice Betrayed (from your comment Wednesday, 23 September 2009 @ 11:06am):
Yes, I do feel obligated to pay the money back, and you’re right that I should not allow my ex to hold this club over my head. I definitely have no belief I can keep him in this “nice” phase – I remember the whacked stuff he has done and said in the past — and know that I can only control myself, so that will be my ongoing focus.
My goal is to continue to practice emotional detachment, focusing only on what I have control of and what I am responsible for — and it feels good.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 5:53pm
Twice Betrayed says:
You all have been busy with posts…I could not get on all day…finally got on using opera. Lots of good info.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 8:19pm
JLP0108 says:
I am working on no contact as much as I can (we share custody), but at times it’s almost impossible for me. Thursday and Friday, I was proud of myself though because my son was sent to the office at school. Before this, I would call his N father right up and try to figure out what was going on and what we would do together. This is the first time that I have decided that I can deal with this, with my son, without the N. father TELLING me why this happened, and what I need to do. I am his mother…I am qualified! I asked the school to call his father also so that he could be informed of what happened.
What happened really, really scares me though. My son was in the office for bullying out at recess. He’s only in 5th grade, and he’s a sweethear. He doesn’t have a mean bone in his body! He IS, however, EXTREMELY competetive, especially with sports. I knew this had to have been during a sports activity, and it was.
My son didn’t understand, at all, to any degree, what he was doing wrong. So, the schcool administrator called in some other students so they could tell my son what they were bothered by. The kids told my son that he was mean during sports, and that he would do things like “get in their faces” when he was winning and they were loosing. He would walk up to them and yell, “HA!”
The thing that I am most worried about is that my son didn’t know what things he was doing were mean or which things he was doing constituted bully-like behavior. To me (as a school adiministrator myself), bully-like behavior is purposeful intimidation. But, my son would not do this. He was doing these things totally without knowledge that he was hurting anyone or making anyone upset. The school principal called three other boys in his grade in to tell my son about times when he was being mean during sprots activities. Could it be that my son is just extra competitive?
I am so worried sick about this! Does anyone know any research about the behaviors of children with narcissitc faters, or whether this could be a red flag? I seriously hope that I’m overeacting here because of all the new materials that I’m reading on N, and I wonder also if this is just the way that my son gets his anger out over the conflict of our divorce. He seems pretty withdrawn about the conflict and the divorce otherwise, and won’t even talk to the counselor. Maybe sports, which he’s very good at and plays every day, is his way to vent his frustrations?
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 10:12pm
skylar says:
JLP, I don’t think he’s a P, I think he is just imitating what he sees from his father. Explain to the principal that his father is the coach and also the example for his son about good sportsmanship. This is so obvious, they will get it.
I will let the LF people with kids give you advice on what to tell your son about his dad. It’s really a tough call.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 10:22pm
Rosa says:
JLP0108:
I recommend the book, “Just Like His Father”, by Dr. Liane J. Leedom, MD.
I have an at-risk child in my family. She is my niece, and her mother (my sister-in-law) is a very abusive psychopath.
My niece is only 5 years old, and she is also extremely competitive.
I have been taking care of her since she was a baby. And I am worried about her, just like you are worried about your son.
I am only half way through Dr. Leedom’s book, but she addresses excessive competitiveness in the book.
Excessive competitiveness is NOT GOOD for at-risk children. It impairs their ability to love, because children who are overly competitve lack EMPATHY.
Page 61 of the book reads (in BOLD print), “Empathy is the cornerstone of the ability to love, and therefore empathy is at the core of good character.”
So, it is very important that at-risk children learn empathy.
“Empathy is the ability to understand the world from another person’s point of view AND motivation to treat another kindly based on that understanding.” (page 61)
Page 62, “it is during the elementary school years that empathy either takes root and becomes a way of life or emotional callousness sets in.”
Dr. Leedom bullet points things you can do to enhance your child’s ability to love in the book, and she also lists things that impair a child’s ability to love.
There is some good info. in the book. I recommend it.
I would also read Dr. Leedom’s articles on this site.
You may find some that apply to your situation.
Under “Categories”, click on “Liane Leedom, MD.”
I believe you can even ask her questions, if you like.
I am NOT trying to scare you here. I just want you to have the best information possible, so that you can address your situation with your child.
The time to do this is NOW, before he reaches his teen years.
Like I said, I am not a parent. But, I am familiar with at-risk children.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 10:56pm
skylar says:
Rosa, that’s very interesting information.
I know exactly how my parents taught me empathy. They took my doll away and gave it to my sister to chew on her head. This went on for an entire year, when I was 3.5, as I agonized at seeing my “daughter” being mutilated by my baby sister. All three of us girls still have our dolls and both my sisters have theirs in pristine condition. Only mine has it’s head mutilated by my sister’s mouth. an entire year of this taught me that other peoples feelings are more important than mine. Practice makes perfect. Better to be a pathetic wimp than a P!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 11:41pm
Rosa says:
Skyler:
I literally become nauseaus when I read what others on this site have endured from their psychopath parents during childhood, and knowing that it is happening within my own family.
Never in my life did I ever think I would be dealing with something like this.
But, I am NOT one to back down from a fight. So, here I am educating myself and doing the best I can, like everyone else.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 26 September 2009 @ 11:56pm
skylar says:
sorry Rosa, about making you nauseous. I held back about the recurring nightmares. children are genetically programmed to absorb everything that happens around them. thats a survival mechanism. The good news is that your GENUINE love, patience and valueing of those kids can help override whatever else is going on in their lives. I admire your courage. As long as they know that ONE person values them as a unique person and individual, that will be absorbed and it can possibly save them. the spoiled kids, I’m not sure how to save them.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 12:35am
JLP0108 says:
Skyler,
Thank you so much for the advice. I’m so sorry to hear about how your parents treated you, but at the same time I know that that must be one reason why you are so strong. I’m amazed how so many of the LF friends have overcome the tough times and have used the hurt to become successful and to help others. I hope that I can get there soon also!
Rosa,
Thank you for the book idea. I’m going to put that one at the top of my list. I don’t think my son is a P, but I just love him so much I don’t want him to pay for behavior that he has learned, or that has been programmed into his head by his father. He just needs to know that that type of behavior is not normal or o.k, and that it is o.k. to show what a loving caring person he is, even on the sporting feild.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 1:27pm
skylar says:
JLP and Rosa,
I hate that I have no self-protection mechanism, that I’m lost in so many ways. But when I look at my P-sister and my ex-P, I’m just soooo grateful not to be like them. They all really do have my pity. To be a P is like being a cartoon character, so two dimensional.
If not being a P required that I be tormented as a child, then so be it. But actually, I remember that it didn’t take much effort for my mother to take my doll away and give it to my little P-sister. I always gave up without a fight because she made me have PITY for my baby sister’s crying and raging. When she finally got her own doll – a much bigger, better one – she didn’t want it. That’s why it’s still in pristine condition. She only wanted to take mine away. We all remember what she was like as an infant and she was selfish even then. No one in my P-family argues about that. It is an accepted fact. What is not accepted is that the P-parents encouraged it and that THEY CONTINUE TO DO SO EVEN TODAY AND SHE IS 40 YEARS OLD.
those of you who have opportunities to raise children, please, please don’t spoil them. Make them aware of the importance of sharing and caring for others. Drive that point home every day even as you drive home the point that they are very valued as human beings. Each kid you save, will save the world so much grief later on.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:01pm
Rosa says:
Skyler:
Thank you for saying that. I think you made excellent points about spoiling children, especially at the expense of another child. (Easy for me to say, I am not a parent!)
To elaborate on the 2-dimensional quality of the P, I actually refrain from engaging in anything emotional with the sister-in-law, anymore. She just twists it, and uses it against us later, so I stopped.
These days, everything I do or talk about with her is completely superficial, but I do it with plenty of emotion
. She’s not aware of the difference, anyway.
Besides, it’s not like I’m going to hurt her feelings.
She does not have any!!! (Took me over a year to figure it out, though.)
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:39pm
Rosa says:
It really is a chimpanzee-human type of relationship.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:43pm
JLP0108 says:
Maybe it will be easier if we start thinking of them that way when we’re having to interact with them. As, “Not human.” I think a lot of my anger comes from being angry that he’s not ACTING human, and I forget that he can’t. I keep wanting to beleive the lie that he really has emotions SOMEWHERE in there and that he could access them and have some empathy if he WANTED TO. The truth is, though, that the closest he could come to that would be to pretend. Next time I HAVE to interact with my N ex, I’m going to pretend that he’s a cartoon character, and respond to him like I would the television set during a very boring cartoon. In my mind, I’m going to say, “He’s not a human.”
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:27pm
Matt says:
skylar:
I saw your post the other day regarding living together for 7 years equalling common law marriage in Washington State.
While I am not licensed to practice in Washington State, I do not believe it recognizes common law marriage. For a common law marriage to even be recognized by a state which recognizes them, you must first live in one of these states which do recognize it: Alabama, Colorado, Georgia, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, or Washington, DC.
Regarding your ex-S making a claim on your house — he has no recognizable interest in it since his name is not on the deed. Moreover, you reported his checks to you as rental income. Caso cerrado as we say in Spanish (case closed).
I do have a few suggestions. First, if you think he’s going to try to make a claim on the house in the event of your demise – timely or untimely, make a will now, which states who will get the house. In most states you can get a simple will form (in many states called ‘Bloomberg forms”) at any Staples. Fill this out, and then send copies, in sealed envelopes to the person you name executor of your estate and one or two other trusted people. Just tell them you are sending them a copy of your will in a sealed envelope (or give it to them) with the request they not open it, but should something happen to you to give it to the police, your named heirs, whomever.
For free legal advice see if any local law school has a law clinic. Also, most county or state bar associations have nights where the public can walk in and ask questions of an attorney. Check in with your local bar association and they can advise you. Also, they often have attorneys who offer pro bono (free) services if you ask them. I’d also check with a local domestic violence service provider. They often have attorneys who volunteer their services to the victims of dv.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 7:33pm
skylar says:
Thanks Matt,
the will with his name on it has been destroyed and a new one has been made leaving all to my nephew.
I’ve always heard that WA is a common law state but maybe there is confusion between common law and communal property?
I’m not so worried because if he wants to claim that he contributed money to the house purchase, he would have to show that HE EVER WORKED ANYWHERE!!!! LOL!!
Show me one tax return or W-2 you moron!
He thinks he is so smart, but he just took it for granted that his fantasy of me killing myself would come true. That’s because he can’t differentiate truth from lies, reality from fantasy, an adult with emotions from a self-pitying egotistical infant.
I did not kill myself and you didn’t have a plan B you m***f**** moron. You should’ve had a plan B, but that would’ve required that you actually work and get some w-2’s. hahahahahaha.
Whew! ok, rant over, this topic gets me a bit hot when I think about people wanting to kill me. Sorry Matt, not yelling at you. You are wonderful, thanks for the advice.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:07am
Tilly says:
Matt:
Is it one year NC for you in November?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 2:50am
Matt says:
Tilly:
Yup. November 7th.
Sklar:
By communal property, I think you’re referring to community property. Since you weren’t married to this joker, it still isn’t an issue. A possible area of concern would be is if you registered as domestic partners with your city/state, provided WAshington State recognizes domestic partnerships. On the other hand, since you owned the property before you got involved, it still steps outside of it, at least by my understanding of how the law works in most jurisdictions.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:03am
skylar says:
Matt,
Nope, no registration. He was soooo worried about people knowing where he lived (said psycho person might want revenge on him one day for an imagined wrong doing) so he never even used that address. He used all his friends and acquaintances addressess then later got a mailbox.
He wanted our lives to be kept separate in every sense of the word and never let me put him on my taxes as a spouse or dependant so I never got that deduction.
He made his bed. now he can sleep in it.
Interesting thing: he still hasn’t gotten back to me with the name and address of his lawyer so that I can go sign his papers. Maybe because he doesn’t have one? It was a trick of some sort?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:37am
Matt says:
skylar:
“He made his bed. now he can sleep in it.” Assuming he owns one, I’d say.
My take if there was a lawyer, the lawyer would be contacting you directly.
What papers does he want you to sign? I wouldn’t sign anything without it being reviewed by a lawyer.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 10:35am
skylar says:
Matt:
here is part of his email, in bold type. The other part was about “the campfire of his love” which I so callously extinguished.
We must now resolve the property issue.
I have already paid over 700 hundred to a law firm for legal advice and direction.
It goes like this , if we go to court we will spend a lot more money on attorneys and in the end it will still be 50-50 minus the legal fees, in addition things that are private may come out in court that would be bad for you and me. The best way to move on is out of the courts, just between us and use the attorneys for the necessary binding paperwork only.
I got too different real estate agents to look at the property and give me there estimate as to its current market value. They put the selling price between 260,000 and 275,000 of course it could take some time to sell it.
Your personal bills would come off the top we would split the remainder.
There are some issues with selling the property that bother me.
1. The pet Cemetery would have to be moved that would make me very sad.
2. And the real estates agent said I would have to build a deck and repair the kitchen.
3. Putting the property on the market could take some time and I am eager to put you and your family behind me.
Because of these three issues I would be willing to consider the following.
If you were interested in keeping the property for your retirement and income strategies, I would be willing to reduce my share to 70,000 plus the camper trailer as incentive.
Don’t misunderstand this gracious offer as anything other than what I previously stated. An additional benefit for me may be that the cats would get to live their lives out where they grew up of course that would be up to you.
Maybe you could find a family member or a mortgage house to finance this small amount after all the properties are paid for. Whatever you decide you must let me know in the next 10 days. If I don’t hear from you I will instruct the attorney to go forward with the necessary legal steps
Then he told me that I didn’t need to speak with the attorney and that his secretary would notarize the paperwork in the attorney’s office. But he didn’t tell me where that office was.
And no, he doesn’t have a bed, he has slept on my couch for years. LOL.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 10:54am
Matt says:
skylar:
Aren’t these Ss just the font of helpfulness and graciousness? Especially when they don’t have a pot to piss in.
What real estate agent? If he is going around representing that he has an interest in YOUR property you have to nip this in the bud.
I think you need to stop him in his tracks pronto and tell him that he has no interest in the property, the deed is solely in your name, he is to take no further action with respect to your property. He needs to be made clear on the fact that he has NO SHARE in the property. None. Nada. Nyet. Zip. Punto.
At a minimum you must see a lawyer ASAP to protect your property. More to the point, I think you need to hit him with a lawyer to stop this nonsense. Right now he think you are going to cave. I think a letter from a lawyer, stating what the law is will drive this creature off since he will realize that he can’t get anything more from you.
As for the camper and whatever else he’s blathering about — is this property jointly held? If it is in your name, he has no interest in it. If it’s in his name, you have no interst in it. If it’s in both your names, then you figure out how to split it. Your expenses are your business. He is not legally liable for them. Provided you haven’t cosigned on his loans, credit cards etc, you have no legal responsiblity for his obligtions.
I know you said you don’t have the energy to deal with him right now. Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where the longer you let him keep taking these runs at you, the more sick and tired you are going to feel. Also, a very sad fact of life is that he who wins the race to the courthouse, wins. You have to pull it together and strike him first. Personally, I think he is blowing smoke about the attorney. That said, you don’t have the luxury of screwing around waiting to see what he’ll do. If you take the first step you will probably send him running for the hills. If you don’t, now you’re going to have to play HIS game. There have been others on this site who made that mistake and found themselves thrown out of their own homes because the sociopath in their lives made the first move. Also, while I think his case is without merit, there are enough unscrupulous attorneys out there who will take any half-assed case if they think they can shake a settlement out of the victim — in this case you.
In your shoes I’d hire a good lawyer, fast. If cash is an issue, sell whatever you have to which is in your name to raise the money. But, you have to act.
As for the pet cemetery, the pets are dead. I don’t think they are going to care where they end up.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:16am
M.L. Gallagher says:
Skylar, I don’t normally comment in the logs as I don’t often get a chance to read them — but I read yours and I almost spit out my coffee! That letter could have been written by the P formally in my life.
He always wrote letters like this, creating ‘facts’ from thin air. Stating that he would oh so generously settle for x amount in order to make it equitable for everyone… blah blah blah. He’d talk about the lawyers he’d consulted with (surprise, surprise, a lie) and he’d give a value for some property or other stating it was appaised at CMV and you should be thankful he’s only going for equitable distribution after your costs are calculated in — because of course, he could demand more…. (surprise, surprise, lies).
The P formerly in my life would state his assumptions as if they were foregone conclusions — like ‘we would split the remainder’ — the pre-emptive bid. I’ve stated it. It’s fact. You won’t question the facts because you’re going to be all tied up in believing me like you always do, blah blah blah.
Start laughing. This guy is doing what he knows best — and that’s con you with bulls*t and pretending it doesn’t smell.
They count on us doing what we’ve always done in the past, acquiese to their brilliance. Kowtow to their magnaminity.
He definitely isn’t counting on you to get the facts — about common-law ownership, appraisals, and worse yet – to even consult a lawyer — don’t you remember, he’s always only ever acted in the best interests of both of you. He is the Lie. He’s doing what he does because it’s who he is, it’s all he can do.
You’re brave and strong. Do not let his manipulations create F.O.G. in your reality.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:31am
skylar says:
Thank you Matt,
that will be my project for the week, I suppose, contacting a lawyer.
EVERYTHING is in my name. All credit cards, the business, the trailer, the bills. He only owns his car, his truck and his helicopter.
Even his laptop is in my name and I have a reciept for it.
I’m thinking about taking it one day…
One thing about my credit card bills is that he used 2 cards for auto gas and aviation gas. There is nothing else on these cards and I had to pay them. I’d like to sue him for these amounts totaling thousands over the years. Oh, well, not really important, but more ammo if I do end up in court.
At this point, I doubt that he has any leg to stand on and that he is trying to get me to react just so he can have contact with me and implement his ulterior motive. He left two voicemails this morning.
But I should probably contact an attorney, as you said, just in case.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:37am
M.L. Gallagher says:
Matt — I just read what you wrote above — Bravo!!!! Skylar, the truth Matt speaks is the only thing that will drive away the stench of the Ps bull. And you deserve to be free of his smelly bull. He’s not going to go away willingly. Hit him where it hurts — he doesn’t have the balls to face truth and fact and the law. He doesn’t have the balls to stand up to you when you are being your most courageous and magnificent self.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:37am
skylar says:
Louise,
I understand what you are saying, but this guy is seriously deranged and has a history (which I’ve watched) of sabotaging cars, airplanes and helicopters. He befriends people in law enforcement to do his dirty work too.
There are many long stories I could tell you but the most recent is how he got the camano island police to harrass me under the guise of looking for me as a missing person. I contacted the Island County Sherrif and provided him with voice recordings of the P saying he was going to do this. I wanted to have a meeting with the Sherrif, Mark Brown, to discuss my future safety. I wanted to be sure that he knew that his officers could be counted on to protect me rather than to cooperate with the P. The recordings were provided as proof so that they would KNOW UNEQUIVICABLY that I’m not just a scorned woman, I am TELLING THE TRUTH. These recordings are chilling. His voice oozes evil as he describes how he will terrify the neighbor and punish the deputies by telling the neighbor that he had killed me. Guess what? – no reply from the sherriff. That’s who I’m thinking of sueing…
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:52am
OxDrover says:
Dear Skylar,
I think you need to listen to Matt! Louise nailed it on the head too! YOU GO GIRL!!! TOWANDA!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:17pm
Matt says:
skylar:
If he still has credit cards on which you are joingly liable, close them immediately and notify the credit card companies. Also, I would contact TransUnion, Experian and Equifax and put security locks on your credit information so that it can only be release pursuant to your written authorization, to specific credit inquiries and only if you give your passcode authorization. With identity theft running rampant, this will help protect you against him trying to open accocunts in your name. ErinBrokovich went down this path with her ex as I recall.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:32pm
Matt says:
skylar:
If the police are being unresponsive, I would remind them about the US Supreme Court case of Tracy Thurman v. City of Torrington, CT in which the police didn’t take her allegations against her ex seriously and he stabbed her 13 times. The case made it all the way up to the US Supreme Court. She collected 2.3 million dollars.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:37pm
skylar says:
No, I reported those credit cards stolen so he doesn’t have those anymore.
The real problem is the Trojan P. He is a lawyer, and a homeland security agent and he has my SS# as well as all my parents info and their SS#s etc…
That was all part of their plan and we walked into it because we didn’t know about P’s.
My exP is too smart to do identity theft himself, he would do it by proxy, he knows enough meth freaks to do this. Thank you for the idea to lock my credit inquiries. I will do it. Does it cost anything?
Any thoughts on how to deal with the elusive Sherriff?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:40pm
skylar says:
Oh, I didn’t see your response about the sherrif. THANK YOU, I WILL DEFINITELY USE THAT.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:41pm
Matt says:
skylar:
On the credit cards you reported stolen — it may not be enough. Notify the companies, in writing, sent out certified mail, that your ex is NOT to be issued a card on the account. Better yet, make sure the joint account is closed and new ones opened in your name only.
Regarding the security locks, they don’t cost anything. If and when you do need to have information released, the cost is something like 5 bucks. But, that varies from state to state. You can find out the exact cost on each of the credit reporting agencies websites. You get the application on line at each site. You have to file a little supporting documentation, like a photocopy of your drivers license. I would do this for both you and your parents since your social security numbers are out there.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 12:51pm
skylar says:
Matt,
I wasn’t clear when I spoke of my CC’s
we never had any joint accounts. He lives underground didn’t want to be connected to me in anyway financially. He was always worried that his debts would end up taking the house away from him so he made sure it was all in my name. Then he just kills me and inherits the whole thing.
There is one parts company that I opened up a business account with – Fastenal, inc. He would go pick up parts and they would send me the bill. Well, he went and purchased $100 worth of parts after we split. I called Fastenal and told them that I had not given permission for this ex-employee to buy parts on my account. I told them that they should have called me before authorizing that purchase and that I was not going to pay. They said that I had to pay and that they would continue to bill me. They said I should file a police report if I don’t want to pay.
I suggested to them that they bill him instead, HE DID SIGN FOR THE PARTS. I offered to give them his address to send the bill. They said they couldn’t open an account for him without his authorization.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:05pm
ErinBrockovich says:
SKYLAR:
Girl, don’t let him intimidate you…..it’s time to arm up and nip him in the balls then eat him!
Present the facts, the reality and shut him down and out!
Protect your assets and anything he could/may sabotage.
BUT DO NOT LIVE IN FEAR!
There is only so much you can do……but now is the time to step it up.
I agree with Matt and M.L……
M.L’s statement about his ‘facts’ or version of…..also hit me!
If they ‘think’ it….it’s fact! Then they expound from there.
They believe their contrived ‘facts’….
Oh how we have all lived with their reality……
You need to build a ‘team’……
#1. Attorney
Don’t fret on this…..it’ll be okay….it’s going to cost you some to keep your assets.
Compile your documentation and organize it all…….
Keep your records off site and in triplicates.
Let go of the fear……and move ahead as you have to.
You can do it, you are a strong woman with determination!
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:17pm
skylar says:
just got another call:
hey ya, don’t ignore my phone calls, you know, I don’t know why you are the way you are. umm. you chose the path that you’re on and you chose it because,… you felt it, uhhhm , your love went down the tube and sooo you deserve it because it wasn’t important to you anymore umm and uhh these are decisions that you made, that you clearly made and over the months that have gone by you’ve had many opportunities to change the course and you didn’t. You obviously didn’t because, you don’t, your original decision, you stand by it. So now, don’t turn this into some kind of weird war because there’s no war going on here, it’s simple. you left and you want a different life, and you should go that way and you should do it as painlessly as possible. Don’t add pain to it. Because if I don’t communicate with you and we don’t get this done, we WILL go to court. so call me back, cuz I’m not kiddin you, i’m very serious about this and you need to talk to me.
now the phone is ringing again and it’s him. Something is going to happen today. He’s on a mission.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:18pm
Matt says:
skylar:
If your prior course of dealings with Fastenal was (a) your ex would walk in and say “I need 6 sparkplugs” and put them on the account, (b) he signed for them and (c) Fastenal billed you, then I’d say you’re on the hook for the 100 bucks because Fastenal did not have notice from you that your ex no longer had authorization on your account. If you didn’t have a prior course of dealing with Fastenal and they just let the stuff walk out the door on his say-so, then you’re in a stronger position.
If you haven’t done so already, notify all your business suppliers, and anybody else ex may have had access to in connection with your business, that ex is no longer an employee and has no right to charge things to your account. Until S is out of the picture, I would ask them to personally call you to authorize all charges. Notify them by phone right away, and then follow it up in writing with some record that you sent the notice — certified mail, email with a return message, something like that.
Personally, I would file a police report for two reasons. First, at a minimum it will put S on notice that you are done cleaning up his messes and he better not f*ck with you. Second, this is theft, pure and simple. Hold him accountable for his actions.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:20pm
Matt says:
skylar:
Change your email account address for all your contacts except him. Change your phone numbers and do not give it to anybody who may give it to him. To the extent you keep the existing numbers/email addresses for the untrustworthy people in your life, only check them once every couple of days. NC is the only way you’re going to break his hold on your brain.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:22pm
blueskies says:
i agree with matt – and skylar, is there somewhere you can go today, stay at a friends or something (leave the phone at home?)if he is on a ‘mission’? You need to have a break from this crappola.just a thought.x
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:28pm
skylar says:
another voice mail:
hey listen,
you’ve been cruel and mean to me, I’ve felt all your meanness. I have incurred all the pain, I have, uhhh you’ve been very successful, ok. So, you know, and I’ve SHARED with you how successful you been. I have told you how bad i hurt how bad what you’ve done is. Aren’t you happy with that? Isn’t that enough? I mean, you know, it’s not GOOD for you to always uhh draw pleasure from hurting. Me. you should just go ahead and go on with your life I don’t know why you feel the NEED to hurt me. I mean, there’s no win out of this. You need to find someone else, you need to get on with your life. You know? I’ve been really kind in my offers and in my patience. And, but I’m growing real cold on this, I need to get goin’. I don’t want to converse and interface anymore. I don’t wanna do this. I’m tired of ya. uhh hurtin me and spiking me and things like that. I don’t wanna do it anymore. I’m all done with it. and and you know, I just want to now, move on i wanna try to find what little of life I can that’s left and go. and you, made a decision to do this. You need to stick by your DECISION. Your decision was to, to do this and you did and you were successful. you’ve you’ve You know we’re a hundred percent, so you’re, youknow? You know had you not left, I’d have never left you so in that aspect, you really did well, because ummm you know, you forced me you know I I I you tortured me long enough to where I’ve now come out the other side. I’m virtually stripped. there’s not a lot left of me and I and I I don’t want this anymore, Ok,I’m not into it anymore. You know I don’t know where you’re living at but you can find some other. You might be able to find a younger guy. somebody who thinks just like you with the same values and ideals,and the same uhhh, you know EVERYTHING and you know, you don’t need to do this. We worked our butts off in that house together, now lets get it done with and move on. And you really need to consider the things that I told you about doin’. About maybe bringing your family into it. You know, they are of like mind and they would see that there was a financial benefit in owning that. And then, I’m no longer part of the family. They would kill 2 birds with one stone so they might help you. That offer stands. And the court will see that I made that offer. and I’m not going to change that I just want this to fuckin conclude here, so I can go start living. I ain’t got much time in life and this this is killing me. I don’t want this anymore. I’m done. You can whereever you’re at and I’m gonna go wherever I’m gonna go. Now, uhhh, so we need to get this done. Now I’m gonna go to court on it, and when I do, you’re gonna lose. If I have to go to court to get a judgement to make this happen it’s a fuckin bummer, so uhhh you know. Talk about a fuckin sword, you know that one will be a bad one. I don’t wanna do it, I don’t have no fuckin desire to do it. I just want to conclude this and then we can stop all of this and you can continue living the way that you do whereever it is that you are! and you’ll be better off. Your bills will be paid and you’ll you’ll fuckin you know and you won’t hear from me anymore and I won’t be botherin you anymore their’ll be no fuckin conversation anymore. You know? You just need to get rollin on this, and um you know, times a wastin, you call me! and let’s get this done with. damn it. Don’t make me tell, you know once I initiate, once I tell the, the lawyer to go on this, I’m not, it’s a done deal, he’s gonna file the papers it’s gonna go to the court. You’ll have to go and make a deposition under court order. The whole fuckin 9 yards! Let’s don’t do that, let’s just agree to get rid of the shit and move on or or you can take the option I gave you if you can pull it together. so call me. cuz uhhh, uhh, you know, today is the day. now tomorrow, I’m gonna go and do this. and then I’m gonna leave the area and let the attorney do whatever he’s gotta do. only time I’ll show up is on the court date. Ok bye.
feel free to analyze. gotta go to my appointment. I’ll check in later.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:49pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Skylar:
Like Matt said, you put a ‘fraud alert’ out with all three credit reporting agencies….
Also. make sure every 3 months you get a complet copy from all three agencies of your credit report.
Under ‘normal’ circumstances we should all get one at least once a year……! Every year! And KEEP THEM.
I was able to use the S’s report from 1990 to prove somethings……. NICE!
This is the part about never disposing of anything…..who would have thunk I would have been able to use, 19 years later, a credit report to prove I OWNED MY RENTAL OUT RIGHT! It shows income declared, among other things….addresses……
I did…..VALUABLE……SAVED ME $350k IN EQUITY!
Get a locking gas cap….$10
Security cameras… NOT expensive……
Change your automatic garage door code on your remotes.
(he may have written down the code on the installed opener) It’s easy to duplicate these codes on a new remote!
Change all locks on house.
Install new interior locks on Key….inside doors.
DEADBOLTS ARE ESSENTIAL.
Install door chimes and window chimes…..cheap but another layer of protection.
Get a wireless security system, but pay the monthly 20-30 to have it monitored and instruct company to alert the sheriff on ALL intrusion calls……false alarm or not!
As sad as it is now to think about……I was willing to date a cop if I had to……
I met a PI in another state and was willing to date him, if I had to…..
I had been cornered financially and I had to get to the point, in my own mind, of how far I was willing to go!
I decided I was not going down……..
Since finances were a roadblock, I had other assets I could use!
Thank god, I never needed to! But I think, taking my mind to a place I never had even thought about IN MY LIFE…..removed all the fear…….
I didn’t like being cornered…..having my health ins cancelled, my health, my finances, my kids, my living….my whole world up in the air and in a corner…..placed there by the S…..
So I felt I needed to bring out the big guns…..and that was to get past the ‘what’ I may have to do!
If I had to ‘date’ someone to expose the behaviors I would.
I contimplated dating an attorney, a cop and a PI……
My GF and I called it…..taking one for the team…..
NONE of it was funny, but it kept me going…..fighting……and most importantly exposiing.
NOW…….he lost everything, I never had to do what I was ‘willing’ to do, I feel much safer, the kids are returning to ‘normal’ and have NC for 2 years…….
I have blocked most ( i won’t say every since we never really know where they will strike next), but I think I have a good brick wall built around us for protection.
Now, it’s just time for me to clean up the destruction and finalize the last details.
I continue to monitor my cc…….
Take his name off everything and anything…..
Go through your credit report one by one and call each creditor and make sure he is NOT on the account….
If you don’t use the account, close it……all old accounts.
request to your active card companies they send you a new card with a new issued number……
(another layer)
any utility bill, especially phone bills…..put in your name ONLY….and don’t forget internet bills……
ANY BILL YOU HAVE BUNDLED….you need to make sure is in your name each biller!!!!!!!!
ie….phone/cable/internet……
Phone and cable can be in your name….but internet remained in the S’s name…..WHO KNOWS WHY……
BUT YOU NEED TO FOLLOW UP WITH THESE COMPANIES to ENSURE IT IS DONE CORRECTLY!
RE: that biller that insists on billing you……DOn’t worry…..they made the sale……they can report it! THey are the business….they have recourse.
They had no business selling goods and allowing a non employee to sign for goods…..there problem!
AND they know it! this is why they put it back on you.
Important to sit down and think of vulnerabilities…..
Bank accounts, joint stock accounts, local retailer accounts.
AND don’t forget any account you held/hold that you listed HIM as the beneficiary.
I cashed out all stock accounts prior to going to court, paypal accounts.
Funny enough, he never brought these accounts up in court……
I declared them all……
To this day, his mail still comes to my home……I allow this, so it tells me what/when/ where he is doing business……HEY, it’s not up to me to forward his mail or change his address…..IDIOT!
I just mark, return to sender…….at my convenience……
Not my problem……Too bad, some might have been from Jury duty or the IRS……..Hmmmmmm…..bummer for him.
He doesn’t know how to pull dirt in from the sides of the hole to get him out of his own hole……he digs on the bottom and gets himself much deeper down…..
Allow your S to do the same!
BTW…..I HOPE TO GOD YOU ARE RECORDING AND SAVING ALL THE PHONE MESSAGES……
AND certainly not repsonding……
I can see the desparation in his changing rambleing thoughts…….
This is good……keep NC…..
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 2:01pm
Matt says:
skylar:
I’m sure you recognize that for what it is — the PITY PLAY.
There’s only one thing you can do. Call the lawyer and get on with your life.
Also, it would serve him right if you found that younger man he’s blathering about.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 2:02pm
blueskies says:
Hi Matt, I dont usually ask, but I have a question:
I have a niece who is struggling to get her ex to leave her alone. They were only together a month and he was emotionally blackmailing her and is now not leaving her alone – basically she is thinking about getting an injunction, although they do work for the same company and may have to work along side each other in the same office – how would she and the company have to deal with this?
any ideas? even a pointer in the right direction would be great.:) x
blueskies.
xx
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 2:06pm
Matt says:
blueskies:
There are two issues at work here: (a) the workplace and (b) outside the workplace.
Workplace – if he is harassing her at work, she should start with HR. Most companies have anti-harrassment policies, so at a minimum the company will be investigate her allegations and be obligated to call him in and tell him to stay away from your niece. Also, this may require internal transfers — your niece should be prepared that she may be required to move from a job she likes. Again, different companies have different policies. The one thing that is a given is that all companies require a complainant (your niece) to follow their complaint procedures.
Outside the workplace, she could get a restraining order. She needs to gather her evidence against him — tape recordings of messages he has left, emails, witnesses to his stalking her, and take it all to the police. The police may refer her to the DA’s office. In some jurisdictions you go to the DA directly. Also, your niece may want to call one of the DV shelters or an organization that works for DV victms and ask them how to proceed.
Where this is a little dicey is that they work together — especially since they worked together before all this started. Again, the company probably has policies dealing with outside restraining orders.
In any case, your niece has to file the complaint with the police and go to her company’s HR.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 3:42pm
blueskies says:
Thanks SO much Matt.:)x I dont know jack about legal issues and we were googling and getting nowhere. that’s a great start:) Thanks so much:)
Bluexxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 4:19pm
blueskies says:
also, I dont talk to you directly much with you here, and that was a bit out of the blue, so I just want to say that I really appreciate you time and comment matt.x thanks.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 4:25pm
blueskies says:
that should read: ‘also, I dont talk directly much with you here, and that was a bit out of the blue, so I just want to say that I really appreciate your time and comment matt.x thanks.’
I think I had better get to bed, evening has been a little more eventful than I had bargained for!:)xx
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 4:27pm
Tilly says:
Matt:
Its about 40 sleeps until the 7th of november and we didn’t kill them!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 5:15pm
Tilly says:
Rosa:
Thank you for being there today. I know you are there for me today Rosa and I know I am in your prayers too. (I have lots of your smart a@sed jokes written in a book .to keep me sane thru the day today) . I decided today that I am going to have to appear to be the “unfeeling unwavering shark” to cope. What do you think? Is that a stupid idea? I don’t know, but I can’t afford to be as vulnerable as I was yesterday or I won’t make it. Today, I am running the gauntlet and it feels like I am fighting the crocodile.Last summer I read the story of a family right near here, that were out on a boat. They were watching their young teenage boy being towed along on his board. He was laughing, never happier. As they watched, a giant shark leaped out of the water and mauled him to DEATH in front of their eyes. They said it was like in agonizing slow motion.
Today I feel that I am BOTH the shark and the parent. Is that crazy? I think it is Rosa. Maybe thats wrong and i feel guilty.
But then ” boy” on the board, being towed along, is actually a cold blooded reptile. The two of them are a thousand times more evil and deadly than even the shark is ever capable of being. Still, today I am the shark, that is what I must appear to be, to survive.
I won’t be staying here tonight, so am not sure of my computer access. I will contact you again soon. Thank you Rosa. I need you and I know you are there. Thankyou.Love xo
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 5:21pm
jillsmith says:
Skylar,
He’s sounding very unstable and scary. Do you have anyone you can stay with tonight? I’m sending thoughts of safety and peace your way. I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with this.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 5:52pm
jillsmith says:
blueskies,
I agree with Matt that you should tell her to contact a DV organization. This is what I had to do and they were very helpful.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 5:56pm
jillsmith says:
Oh my gosh, Skylar! My exS did the same thing. He contacted the police and tried to get them to help find me by doing a missing person’s report. The dumb police were went along with it all. I had just been released from the emergency room after recovering from his brutal attack and I had been in critical care and almost miscarried. When I was released from the hospital, they called all of the DV shelters and there wasn’t room in any of them. I only had this little dress with me that had blood all over it. I had nothing. He had all of my stuff with him (wallet, phone, etc). The security staff at the hospital got the police involved when he shoved an RN and threatened to kill the RN, then took off and hit something with his car in their parking lot. It was a nightmare. I did a police report and everything. I knew no one in this city, as I had just relocated to marry him 7 weeks before this nightmare. So, I had to call people to get help for a hotel room (they had a security person escort me out a back way and provided the cab for me). After all of this, all these days, he called the police, when they were supposed to be looking for him, to file a missing person’s report. As if he didn’t know what had happened. Well, the police claimed they had their wires crossed and finally straightened it all out and apologized to me.
Anyway, it’s amazing what the Ss and Ps think they can get away with! They sometimes do! I’m so sorry you had to deal with all of this.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 6:06pm
jillsmith says:
Sorry for all of the typos. I really need to start editing before I hit the ‘Post’ button. I think that sometimes when I vent, I get so into that moment from the past that I just vomit the memories back up and quickly hit the ‘Post’ button to get rid of it as fast as I can.
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Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 6:08pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Tilly:
GIRL…..you are a strong, strong warrior…….
You know what you have to do….stay focused, remain calm, and in control!
Do not let fear run you……
Follow the recipe and you will be okay. It will be another growth hurdle and another empowerment mission.
Do not overthink it….any of it……..and never waiver!
He made his choices and he must pay the piper….you didn’t ask to be put in his mix of mess……
DO the right thing.
STAY CALM and NEVER LET THEM SEE YOU SWEAT!!!!!
Demand protection and in writing…..demand what is due to you and all options and scenarios!
Be in control and in charge……
REMEMBER……YOU
have something they want!
I have faith in you Tilly!
Rise above and deliver!
Your in my thoughts girly!
XXXOOO
EB
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 6:17pm
skylar says:
Thank you everyone for your responses. I’m going to follow thru on each one.
I already live with my parents since I ran from him so don’t worry about my immediate safety.
Interesting thing: he left 2 more messages and he did slip up.
He used Goddamn as an adjective, for “papers”. When my exP uses the word “Goddamn” as an adjective, that means that the noun doesn’t exist at all. Therefore that means there are no papers and it is all a ploy to reel me in. Makes me think that it’s not about money at all, but in fact the right hand being used as a distraction for the left hand.
Still, it’s time to contact a lawyer. I had been feeling so tired of dealing with this and needed a break, but I think I’ve got some wind back. So I’ll start again tomorrow.
Matt and Erin, I appreciate so much the benefit of both your experiences. LF makes all the difference.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:13pm
recovering says:
Hello all — I find myself checking in here at least every other day for a “reality check” — and always get the reinforcements I need to maintain understanding about the multiple issues we’ve all dealt with/been dealing with regarding N/S/P to greater or lesser degrees.
Just want to say thank you all for sharing your wisdom! Recovery is an ongoing process of learning, unlearning and re-learning.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:14pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Recovering…..
The nice thing about LF………..or one of many nice things…..is someone is ALWAYS here to pick you up, slap you back to reality, or just offer comfort in trying times….not to metion the unbelievalbe experiences we have all endured and are open to sharing for the good of others!
Stick around and take whatever it is that you need for your journey!
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:28pm
ErinBrockovich says:
SKYLAR:
You are miles ahead…….
The fact that you know his ‘moves’ or ‘words’ is such a leap for you.
I too picked up on the verbally corrosive language…..and interpreted it or translated it into his true meaning…..
My S never struck without notice……
EVER…..
He couldn’t keep his mouth shut……
He got off threatening…….none of it scared me, I would sit back and figure out exactly WHAT he was doing…..
I was able to figure out each move with 100% accuracy.
It’s so important not to react immediately…..to anything they ‘offer’……if we take as much time as we need to dissect…..the answers will come to us…..
I found it interesting in his message…..about him wanting to leave town……
I get the impression (although you know him best and I could be WAY off base)….
That he wants to collect whatever it is he thinks he can extort, and is running out of supply to support him…..and needs to move along…..AND YOUR HOLDING HIM UP!
I also got the impression if you just told him to fuck off and really didn’t have anything to go to court for, he would leave…..
I think a harsh letter from an attorney would shut him down.
What is his financial resource like? As I recall….bleak?
He seemed to give you a warning or alert that he can’t afford an attorney……by projecting it on you….You can’t afford one…..how expensive this could be for YOU…..never mentioning him…..
I find this telling…..
Switch out all his projections and warnings and you may see what he is really saying…..
AND, why is it he is putting this as his top priority ALL OF A SUDDEN?
My S didn’t have stamina, he was a sprinter…..so he hit heavy quick and stopped, no follow through…..
Maybe yours has these traits…..
Didn’t he start this game a bit over a week ago…..now he’s calling several times a day with desperate talk……
AH, fuck him…..
You got it going on…….DO NOT RESPOND!
If he did have an attorney they would frown on him calling you….he’s a bluffer……and your not responding to all his ‘kindness’.
I believe you will be okay…..
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:38pm
ErinBrockovich says:
I took a nap today and had a very funny dream.
It was about the ex……
He was trying to talk me into staying at my rental house…..he was homeless…..
He was also trying to manipulate me into trying to ‘get’ to the kids….
BUT…..the most telling thing was that he was driving a ride on lawn mower and wouldn’t get off it to talk to me. He kept sitting on it and following me to the mailbox and in front of my house etc…..
He was afraid I would take that too.
I wouldn’t give him the time of day, except to say he was a pathetic mess that made very poor choices….
I woke up with laughter…..thinking how funny…….
He is 47 years old and HE CHOSE TO DESTROY HIS OWN LIFE…..and he doesn’t even have so much as a ride on lawnmower as transportation to get around!
He was stuck in this dream…..just like real life…..running out of supply, and losing everything due to his actions……and a bitch of an ex wife!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:44pm
skylar says:
I had the most interesting conversation with my mom’s accountant today. She is one of us – empathetic and giving. She seems tough on the outside but her first 2 marriages were with horrible P’s and her mom is a P and invalid, whom she now takes care of. But she told me an interesting story:
She got off a plane in boston and was walking at 2AM in a tunnel to catch a train to WaDC. All alone in this tunnel 4 young gang types surrounded her. One in front, one on each side and one behind her. She knew what was going to happen. So she smiled and said, “I hope this is the right tunnel to get to the train!” They all looked at her like: Lady, do you know what’s about to happen to you? Then they said, “Hey, can we carry your bags?” She felt that they were going to rob her and leave her alone and not kill her so she said, “OK, thanks and handed them over.”
Well, they walked her all the way to the train station carrying her bags for her. They chatted and kept her company. She had changed their minds about what they were going to do!
I looked at her and said, “Helen, that was stockholm syndrome, you BONDED WITH THEM!” She said, “how many people do you know that wouldn’t have started screaming in fear?” I said, “Helen, it’s genetic, you bonded with them instinctively to protect yourself! It’s genetic. You’re N-supply.”
She had another situation in which she and a group of people did the same thing with a dangerous gang. When approached, she simply invited them to dine with them. The next week that same gang attacked and robbed a different group of campers.
Our empathy is a tool. Use it for your protection, but put it away when it doesn’t serve you.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:47pm
recovering says:
ErinBrockovich — Yes, you are quite correct. I do feel very welcomed and supported here more than any other site I’ve been to.
Found your dream quite interesting too. We can use some humor along the journey!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 8:50pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Thats funny you should post that about Helen.
I never thought about it in that way…..
Whenever I rent my vacation rental out, and I do it myslef….I am always very helpful, offer any advice on the area, restaurants, skiing, shopping, sight seeing, ammenties and always stock the house with flowers or something nice for their arrival. make sure the heat is on and if I know they come in late….I leave the lights on for them.
My neighbors commented on how nice my renters always were. And up until the last jerk off….I had never had any problems for 15 plus years….
I told him I just tried to be as nice and helpfull to my tenants to allow them to really feel comfortable and enjoy thier vacation.
I said, people tend to have a hard time screwing people they have a bond with and are helpfull to them……
Then my theory was blown with the last experience…..but not bad one in 15 plus years…..
Then there was the ex s……a whole different story!
Thanks for posting that Skylar…..your always thinking!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 9:10pm
skylar says:
Erin, you got that right. He’d be better off just keeping his mouth shut, but his need to lie overrides everything. He loves to lie, to hear himself lie. So I just listen to his words and know that the opposite is true.
He says he is leaving town to make me think he is so far away that I can never find him. In fact, when I left him he said, “I can disappear where no one will ever find me.” Promises, promises. He means it as a threat that he can hurt me and then not get caught.
The truth is he is a drug dealer and that’s a business that never runs out. He can get money selling drugs at all times. I’m sure he keeps all his drug contacts current. I think he cons because that is what he loves to do. I think that’s his addiction.
I’m still going to call an attorney tomorrow. If the P shows up at any time, I’ll tell him to fax me the “goddamn” papers. LOL.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 9:12pm
ErinBrockovich says:
If you remember, my S is a drug dealer…..when I found out that he took our kids to a drug house for a week and showed them the ropes……that was the end of the marriage!
UH, yeah……my kids or my husband…….not a choice!
Yes, this is how my ex S gains his supply…..he always impresses people with his access to drugs…..
Looking back, there was not a person in his life that wasn’t a drug contact. It didn’t matter….his brothers, clients, neighbors……if he was in contact with them…..it was drug related! PERIOD!
Now he is in Hawaii…..and he is into the coke and extacy contacts…..since there is plenty of pot in hawaii…..he can’t be the stand out with that…..he will import it from Ca….in the farm I am sure he had invested some of his ‘covert’ money in…..
He just networks from one person to another……
The funny thing is…..he can’t spend the over 1 million dollars I know he has hidden because he knows I have reported him……I almost can’t wait for the IRS audit…..he wasn’t careful enough…..
He will have a lot of explaining to do…….how he traveled extensively using cc’s thinking I would have to pay them in the divorce…….NOT! He paid off 20K right after the divorce was granted…..he just couldnlt hold back…..
He spent something like 6k in rental cars in January alone…..How the hell one does that….is beyond me?
He obviously wasn’t renting lawn mowers to get around!
In Oct….he spent 4K in restaurant bills….from 4 states…..
All the while claiming under oath…..he wasn’t working and didn’t have ANY money…….
Yes, do contact an attorney….make sure they are aware of Sociopathic behaviors…..and the games they play, lies etc….
Gather your deed, lenders papers, his rent documentaion, your tax returns and the messages from him and any emails. Make sure you bombard your attorney with the facts and ask him/her to start with a stern letter about harassment etc….
I don’t see much chance this can go to court…..and if he pushes it…..he will be liable for all costs……
He knows he doesn’t have a chance in hell…..and needs to be helped to move along……
I know Florida is lacking a drug dealer….he could go there…..So. California also…….since their contact is now in Hawaii!
I will tell you…..when they leave our area, it is such a releif…..also empowering to know you can’t be fucked with and they now know it!!!!!
I know it’s wearing, but you will have up days nad down…..but you know….you have to do this! Find strength in your mission……
YOUR GONNA KICK SOME SOCIOPATHIC ASS!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 9:31pm
skylar says:
Erin,
Maybe drugs are a problem, not because of the drugs themselves but because of the drug dealing P’s that it attracts. That’s quite the argument for legalizing drugs. Plus we could collect taxes…
I re-read one of Oxy’s posts
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ment-48673
where she talks about the trauma bond. I think thats what Helen experienced. It was so frightening and also, at the time she was with a horrible P, so her brain automatically did the trauma bond. I can’t wait to hear Oxy’s review of the book she is reading on the subject. When Oxy first described it, I didn’t really “get” it. Now hearing Helen’s story, I see it more “3 dimensionally” than from hearing the clinical description for it.
I know that I had a trauma bond with the P, but I had thought that it happened over time. Now I’m thinking it might have happened in an instant. Only, I was not aware of it because I was not even aware that I was afraid. The only reason I know that I was afraid was because of my dreams, my insomnia and my chronic health issues. Basically my PTSD is what clued me in.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 10:16pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
If you need to be a shark, then be a shark. If you need to be a lamb, then be that.
Do WHATEVER you need to in order to get through this.
On the other thread, you said that your anger is going?? That is SO GREAT, Tilly.
You have such a great spirit in you. I KNOW you will get through this.
Stay safe, keep your mind focused on the task at hand, and do not be distracted by diversions.
God is hearing you, Tilly……
“In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.” Psalm 18:6
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 10:33pm
Rosa says:
Hey Tilly:
I went “No Contact in my head” within the first 5 seconds of meeting someone.
Is that a LoveFraud record???
I was exercising at the fitness center, and this guy comes up to me and says, “I’m not hitting on you, BUT….”
It really does not matter what he said after the BUT.
I shut down after the “I’m not hitting on you” line.
I love to play tennis and exercise.
So, I thought the fitness center would be a good place to meet men who share my interests.
Kill 2 birds with one stone, right??
Be careful what you wish for.
I had to go Full Frontal No Contact before he would leave me alone.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 10:54pm
skylar says:
I had a thought about something to say to the P (if I should see him – I’m still maintaining NC on my end but I can see he is ramping up the pressure and will soon find me at my parents’ home again.)
I will say, “Honey, what’s wrong? why are you so upset and want to sell the house?” He’ll say, “you left me” or whatever to that effect.
I’ll say, “what has changed, honey? Nothing has changed, I didn’t see you for days or weeks or months before because you never came home. So nothing has changed. You’re still not around, I still can’t pay the bills, we are still going broke, the house is still falling apart and I still don’t exist. So why are you talking about the campfire of our love? What has changed? There haven’t been any changes to our lives, so I don’t get what you’re talking about.”
He is so stupid and lacking in any emotions. Everything he says is lifted from something he heard said in a movie or tv. So my statements and my lack of emotional response will make him question if he is playing his part “correctly”. LOL.
He really is that simple. They all are. We can confuse them so easily with just the small amount of knowledge we have. It’s ridiculous that we have let them mess with our heads when we are the superior beings because we are more complicated. They are just reptiles and we are fully evolved humans. WE CAN DO THIS.
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Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 11:00pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Skylar:
KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT…….keep ALL thoughts in YOUR head…..Nothing matters to him…..YOUR A GREY ROCK….remember!!!!
I have many, many thoughts of what I would say, when there does come a day I ‘run’ into him…..there are millions of thoughts, perfect things to say…..well thought out….perfect verbage…..
BUT YOU KNOW WHAT…….HE AINT WORTH IT……because none of it is worth my breath…….
I would rather be the snake in the sun, under that boring rock…..and striking where I KNOW it will benefit and protect me and the kids…….
Which means no breath wasted…..and never let him think he got to me……or give him any thoughts in my head…..
This would satisfy him…….and I ain’t here to satisfy him…..
I AM ONLY HERE FOR ME AND THE KIDS!!!!
So…..skylar…..laugh at what you WOULD say to him…..but KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT…….
Lights/Camera/Action…….your on girl!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 12:55am
Tilly says:
Rosa:
You are my soul sister,“In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.” Psalm 18:6
” Thankyou so much! Rosa, Its perfect.
I KNOW I am going through this because this is what I need to bring me closer to God. It has happened since I was 8 yrs old when my parents used to put me down and humiliate me for reading my grandmother’s Bible (that she left to me).
Fitness is the second best way to get rid of anger. What i am going through now is the first. When this is finished I am going back to boxing. To make sure the anger is dealt with everyday.
I reckon that five seconds IS a LF record Rosa! After pubs, gyms are the next place women go to meet guys these days. Its all changed now. And all the guys at gyms are looking at themselves in the mirror so he probably was watching you in the mirror for some time before he approached. But getting fit ( like boxing and tennis) is still the best way to get rid of anger. Guess i ‘ve been painting too long.
Thankyou Rosa, I’m going to ground for a couple of days, but I will look for you again when I surface. I love you.
Tilly.xoxoxoxoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 1:34am
Tilly says:
EB:
Thankyou! You taught me how to be a warrior!
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 1:35am
skylar says:
Erin,
I get your point. I would only say those things if he corners me on the street.
I think it’s important to lie, lie, lie when you are talking to a P. So I have to prepare my lies, just like they do.
But each lie must have a point. The point of my lies is to undermine his ABILITY to lie to me. Since they depend on your emotion and reactions to come up with a facade to wear, we must give them a FALSE emotion and a FALSE reaction. Then they will do their act all wrong. Furthermore, it will undermine their ability to con ALL people in the future.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 7:24am
ErinBrockovich says:
Skylar….
Yes…..BUT…..
Saying NOTHING to them undermines them more than whatever you could thing of saying!
That is the ultimate!!!!
But it goes against everything we WANT to do……
After a few NOTHING exchanges……it freaks them totally out!
I have this ‘journey’ of my ex S on tape……I can listen to his reactions unfold…….
The only time I spoke ‘around’ him was in a legal situation……and even then I spoke of him in the 3rd person…….He just isn’t IN my life.
If he corners you……call the police…..just as if a stranger cornered you…..if you felt threatened in ANY way……call police….
What would you do if I cornered you and got in your personal space and insisted YOU spoke with me…….???
You would not take kindly to that…….
WELL…….he is now a nothing/stranger in your life…….
You know you can’t trust him…..
Think of the Miranda rights when one is arrested…..
You have the right to remain silent,
ANYTHING you say, can and will be used against you!!!………….
I am certain this was written by a S warning us…..and it just so happened to work for the law also!
KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT……AT ALL TIMES!!!!!!!!
ALL TIMES!!!
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 7:40am
witsend says:
skyler,
From someone who is just looking from the outside looking in….When I read the last few emails/voice mails that you posted that he sent you…..
Your SILENCE is DRIVING him crazy! If you read them in the “progressive sense” meaning the first one you posted until the last message.
The first one read (to me) like he was “baiting you”. He EXPECTED to “get your goat” and that you would reply.
When that didn’t work he tried the “hard ball” approach as if he was in charge and control over the situation (even though he seemed totally out of control by what he was saying). I think HE thought he came off as being in CONTROL.
And the very last one I read almost seemed desperate….Like it just dawned on him that he is on a slippery slope and his “words” are not working on you.
When you read his emails naturally because of your history with him you are looking at them with some emotion involved. When I read them having never met the guy, my opinion is that it is “dawning” on him that his little ploy to reel you in isn’t WORKING. And it is making him mad and desperate (his words to you are filled with drama) both at the same time.
YOU know him better than anyone…MAD & DESPERATE might be a dangerous combination. So I do agree that you need to be one step ahead of him at all times.
A lawer is a must. Even if you have to borrow some money and can’t find free services. Maybe a letter from a REAL lawyer rather than his “imaginary” lawer will be enough to making him stop harassing you.
However, AGAIN you know him better than anyone else here. If you think he is a danger to you, that takes top priority. Be safe. I think everyones situation in the respect of being safe here with an S/P/N is very different because some of these toxic people are capeable of “winning” to a different degree than others.
Some will just go away when “taken on” such as Erin b’s ex yet, others might take things to another level.
If you think he will take this to another level such as hurting you then you have to think about that as your number one concern.
I was working long hours over the weekend and was trying to catch up yesterday in reading the post that I missed the last couple of days.
I had read a post that you had posted on saturday about your “revelations”. I really liked that paost and had posted to you a long post and then my computer froze and I lost it…Grrr. Hate when that happens.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 8:21am
skylar says:
Hi witsend,
the really bizarre thing about my exP is his need to project everything on to me.
I have told you how bad i hurt how bad what you’ve done is. Aren’t you happy with that? Isn’t that enough? I mean, you know, it’s not GOOD for you to always uhh draw pleasure from hurting. Me. you should just go ahead and go on with your life I don’t know why you feel the NEED to hurt me. I mean, there’s no win out of this.
These statements about my drawing pleasure from hurting him reveal soo much. It reveals that he knows that HE draws pleasure from hurting me. Which further reveals that it’s not about the money. He is trying to focus me on the money, because he thinks that is my weak point. Months ago, he would leave messages like: “answer the phone, or else NO MORE MONNNNNEY FOR YOU FROM NOW TO ETERNITY!”
I think it’s because money was the only motivator that I exhibited which he ever understood . For instance, I would go out of my way to clip coupons and get rebates, so that is obviously my behavior about money. But when I volunteered my time with helping others, he never could figure out my motivation. So much of my behaviour was self-less in appearance to him. (NO I’M NOT A SAINT, I WAS JUST BORED, OR INTERESTED IN THE PROJECT, OR SOME OTHER GOOD REASON, IN WHICH I GAINED SOMETHING.) He liked thinking of me as some kind of freaky do-gooder and he loved to hate me for it. He even got my neighbors to hate me for it. I am getting it now. I’m understanding that he just never got where all my buttons were and it’s driving him crazy. He wanted to posses me completely but without knowing all the buttons, it didn’t work.
This guy is not going to stop wanting to hurt me. I understand that. He is very focused. I have been a gray rock and I will continue to be one for the rest of my life. I will not show emotion and I will not react in anyway that he could have predicted. In fact, I will act so out of the blue and unexpectedly. My behavior will be so contradictory that he will never be able to make sense of it. I will lie and lie about what I’m thinking and I will not tell him what I’m doing. I’ll send him into the depths of confusion.
He never bothered to get to know the real me for 25 years and he won’t get to know me now.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 8:50am
kim frederick says:
Sky, you often talk about him turning the neighbors against you. Just out of curiosity, how did he do that?
Are you sure they’re against you? Couldn’t that just be more of his crap?
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 9:10am
skylar says:
Kim,
I know it sounds paranoid. It really is bizarre and if I told you exactly how I think he did it, I will probably lose all credibility!
Here is what happened in reverse chronological order:
At the community meeting my neighbor told me to “SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN”. I was on the board of directors of that meeting! She had always acted like my friend before.
Several married men, WON’T EVEN LOOK AT ME when their wives are present any more. I admit that I have a very nice figure and long hair, but I’m not THAT good looking.
After I did ALL the work on the board for 3 years, the crazy, husband stealing neighbor (she admitted to me that she only dates married men, but she is hideous looking) attacked me for not showing up to the last board meeting. She called he police and reported me as a missing person twice! I told my xP to tell her that I had left him. She knew this already but they were working together to get me to call her. They really NEED responses. They NEED to know that they can control. Push a button and watch the expected reaction. (that’s why no reaction or unexpected reaction is the correct response).
Before that, I was working to get our community association up to legal standards with the IRS and with Washington State Law. I implemented a new bookkeeping system with quickbooks but I was not the treasurer, I was the secretary, but I had to do the books because the treasurer (crazy husband stealer) said she didn’t “get” quickbooks. SHE IS THE LOCAL BANK MANAGER!
about two year ago Crazy Husband Stealer (CBS), told me that her mother had committed suicide. But last January, when I was taking her to the doctor, she told me, “I’m so afraid of cancer, my mother died of cancer.” All gaslighting tactics. Obviously, my exP had told her that he planned on my committing suicide.
The other neighbors all showed the same kind of bizarre behavior in attempts to sabotage my efforts on the community water board. I won anyway because I implemented a policy to send out the meeting minutes to the entire community so that everyone would know what was happening at all times. At this time, I didn’t know WHY they were all acting so contrary to logic.
When I finally understood this personality disorder and read that they attack by proxy and that they slander, then I got it.
I also remembered my P coming back from one neighbors’ house and telling me that he had “put them straight” and told them that I am a “saint” for working so hard for the community for no pay. About a year later, I asked these neighbors if P had said I was a saint. She responded, “nooooo, he didn’t say THAT.” Obviously, he told them that I THINK I’m a saint.
Without going into the sordid details I can tell you that his method is to sew ENVY into people. I’ve seen him try to do this to me. He will point out my thinness to a fat person, or he will point out someone else’s wonderful relationship then treat me like a dog. It is so obvious what he is doing but until you know about the P profile, it’s really confusing. It makes no sense.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 9:36am
kim frederick says:
Sky, okay, now I remember CHS telling you about her mom’s suicide. It sounds like he’s got them snowed. I was just curious.
Be strong and ignore them all.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 9:50am
skylar says:
kim, most of these people are not snowed at all. They are P’s working together and laughing their heads off at me because I kept being so nice to them. No matter how much they asked me to give, I kept giving. They thought this was very funny and were trying to see how far they could push the limits. A few times when I said NO, they were shocked and went into tremendous shock and denial. But I kept being nice so they got over it and just tried harder. In the end, I just disappeared and they were stunned. My exP had convinced them that, although THEY would occasionally fail to pull my strings, HE would always be there to reel me back in for them to continue the game. Then the fish escaped the hook! OH MY WHAT A SURPRISE! and what a narcissistic injury for him. I made him look bad in front of the P friends.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:07am
skylar says:
btw, I also made him look bad about 2 years ago, when I told CHS that if she wanted other people’s husbands, she could “have my piece of shit.” I didn’t know that she already HAD taken him, I only said that because he was being such a dick. So, imagine how bad it felt for her to realize she had taken some else’s garbage. Then, imagine how exP felt when she told him that I said that…another narcissistic injury.
Now you know why my life is in danger. I’m mean, with a wicked tongue and keep causing narcissistic injuries to the P. LOL.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:11am
witsend says:
skylar,
Yeah that projection thing….Even my son at his age does that.
It is one of the things that at first REALLY, REALLY, confused me, when I was trying to figure out what was going on with him about a year and a half ago. I didn’t understand it at first as him projecting his own “stuff” back onto me. It was kind of also happening when he first started to be a cumpulsive liar. At first he would tell these REALLY over the top lies. I mean the kind of lies that were an insult to your intelligence. YET he would appear to believe those lies himself. (also confusing to me at the time) Its one thing to lie yet another thing to be ADAMANT that your lies are the truth. And to live in that reality.
And when he would be caught in a lie and project back to me that I was the liar caught in the lie (??? instead of him) I just thought he was telling yet more lies….But finally I saw that he projected his behavior back onto me regardless of what the behavior was, and saw a pattern there. Often times I thought of him as being delusional. And it really, really, scared me.
It was all very confusing because this troubling personality issues all showed up at the same time and it was alot to take in all at once. Especially being slammed with it all by a 15 year old….I was pretty blind sided by it all when it presented itself.
I think that projection onto others is a really, REALLY, big thing when it comes to the personality disordered individual. It helps to “keep them” in their delusional – lack of what is REAL world that they reside in. Projection also aids them to never be accountable for their actions or their lies.
I swear when you see it from the perspective I SEE it….The illness GROWING INTO the child…Or is it the CHILD growing into the illness….It is unbelievable. MIND boggling. And almost undescribable.
It is malignant (for lack of better word) and you can see it growing and progressing daily.
Seeing these same issues/behaviors in an adult, who has already had the time to groom themselves and “perfect” themselves in this behavior….Would be totally different.
Seeing it in a teenager that is still in the process of “growing up”….It seems more like this STRONG EVIL that has posessed his mind and development. Its like an evil force has
mind contol over him. and what happens all around him in the REAL world doesn’t “touch” him in any way and bring him on down back to reality??
I would STILL SWEAR on a stack of bibles that he BELIEVES his own lies. He does seem that delusional about “his” reality.
Is it possible that as a personality disordered illness “matures” within an individual they come to terms with the fact more and more as they experience life, and interact with others, they come to realize how different they are?? How they do lack in emotion and other feelings that the rest of us feel? How their own reality is so far fetched from what is real reality for the rest of us. How their lies are really just lies and not their own personal truth? Does this light bulb go off at some point?
I can say that my sons lies are much more “polished” than they were awile back. He is much more “careful” not to put himself in a position to be caught in a bold faced lie, especially at school and within his peer group. Recently I have noted that he does seem to be somewhat (not fully) but catching on that he is different than his peers. This does not trouble him, just brings out more the grandious attitude that he has about himself.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:11am
Kathleen Hawk says:
ANewLily,
Like you, I too am celiac. Congratulations for getting the diagnosis. It will literally change your life, your health and your mental state.
Celiac is not made worse by our experiences with the sociopaths. It is a genetic auto-immune syndrome that you either have or you don’t. However, over time, the symptoms get worse. And, if you don’t switch to a gluten-free diet, one of the symptoms is affected brain chemistry. In fact, today, if I accidentally get “glutened,” the first thing that alerts me is that I get anxious and weepy.
This mental state is very similar to anxiety-driven depression. And many people who switch to a gluten-free diet discover that their chronic depressive tendencies go away. And then of course, you get rid of the chronic bloating, irritable bowels (we are often misdiagnosed as having Crone’s disease), and over time the itchy dermatitis (usually misdiagnosed as an allergy). A lot of us also get rid of the secondary sensitivities like lactose sensitivity that develops with untreated celiac.
The irony is that the celiac syndrome could well have made us more vulnerable to the sociopaths. A lot of us, like Skylar, self-diagnose. I had raging symptoms in my forties, and doctors kept treating the symptoms with anti-depressants, anti-diarheals, and topical steriods for the rashes. No one even suggested celiac. I had to figure it out for myself, which I did over a number of years seeing my reaction to certain foods. Giving up wheat was hard, because there is a addictive reaction to wheat with celiacs. Even now, if I get accidently glutened, I have to go through a couple of days of intense craving for bread or pasta.
Sound like the hard parts of going NC? It really is. But once you figure out the cost of eating the wrong food, it gets easy. (If only it were that easy getting the sociopaths out of our heads.) And once you get a grip on the diet, it’s not hard at all. You can even go to restaurants, if you stick to grilled meat, salad, and rice or potatoes. Desserts, of course, are the hard part. But there are lots of things allowed, and once you get the hang of it, you can even bake cakes, pies and cookies with gluten-free ingredients. I made the best peanut butter cookies I’ve ever tasted this weekend.
I’m sorry about your tumor, but glad you caught it. My mother, I believe, died of celiac-related cancer, though we had no idea at the time. The long-term effects of ignoring it are very bad. But undiagnosed children also present with learning and behavioral problems. Eliminating gluten and lactose from the diet is the first wave of treatment for kids with autism or learning disabilities.
Once you get through the surgery, you have a better life ahead of you, I promise. You have no idea of the damage that has been done to your body by the gluten, but it will heal and you will discover that you are better in surprising ways. The damage the gluten does prevents us from absorbing important nutrients, and your body will begin to thrive as it has not for a long, long time.
Why does all this sound so much like getting over a sociopath? As always, I am so impressed with Louise’s articles about how she managed her mental processes during her recovery. There is definitely an analogy in giving up wheat, barley, rye and oats. And in their own way, the results are just as good.
Godspeed in your recovery –
Kathy
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:16am
Twice Betrayed says:
sky: you know how it works: divide and conquer.
These p’s also work on being a friend and sympathetic to others and when they confide in them….they store this away to use as blackmail later when they want to control these people. The idea is to control all they can and sow seeds of jealousy so they can get a majority ruling. *if everyone says something than it must be true. That’s why these people are far more dangerous and capable than we think they are. They work on the base emotions of humans. Eventually their mask does slip and they do get exposed, but it sometimes takes a long time and a lot of people get hurt/destroyed before it goes down. [and then they just move on to the next victim[s] *they do use jealousy a lot…. But…..they are also very vulnerable to it themselves. Strange as it sounds: whatever game they are using…is what they fall for too. And whatever they are sooooo against…look at it…it’s what they are doing. *they cannot stand to lose and this is what keeps them focused on us if we dump them….it just kills them to know we saw thru the illusion and moved on from them. [They will many times woo us back if they can so they can destroy and dump us. ]
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:27am
kim frederick says:
It’s funny you should ask that question, because I was just asking myself my own version, this morning. I think it depends on how sophisticated they’ve become, and how far up the scale they’ve progressed.
To the lesser degree, they may believe their own dellusions to be true. But at some point, they begin to realize that they ARE different, and try very hard to disguise that, ao the rest of us won’t see it.
I had an enlightening experience one time. I was sitting in a bar with a new friend I’d known for a couple of months, and had just started to pick up on some “pink flags” when a friend of hers approached us and told her that his MIL was in the hospital, and they didn’t think she was going to make it. My new friend, almost immediatly, threw her head into her crossed arms, on the bar and remained that way, long enough to regroup, and figure out how to act like she felt something. When she pulled her head back up, she was magnificient. Could have won an oscar.
The dying woman’s daughter sat across the bar from us looking devistated. After a while I noticed my P friend staring at her, She actually said,”just look at J.’s face.”
At the time I felt all this was just slightly, off. It didn’t feel right. But I didn’t know what she probably was yet. Now I do.
They study peoples faces to figure out what’s normal, because they themselves don’t have the feelings that we do. They know it and try to fake it.
Just my 2-cents. Hope this helps, a little.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:41am
justabouthealed says:
Witsend I think your perceptions are right on. I knew the P at age 15 and even 40+ years later there are times that I can tell he believes his lies. He has self-recognition about some of his traits (feeling empty) but not about others. (the arrogance, the lack of empathy, the autocratic behavior) .
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:46am
ErinBrockovich says:
KATHLEEEEEENNNN:
HI, hey I’ve missed you girl……..
I’m still waiting to hear back and expect to any day now……
Keep your fingers crossed……
I am psyched…..but if it doesn’t happen…..I wasn’t meant to go this route……BUT….I can still attend the meetings!
Keep in touch…..
XXOO
EB
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 10:50am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Hi Erin.
Wow, they take their time, don’t they? I hope it works out. I know you’d be an incredibly valuable participant.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:03am
blueskies says:
Kathleen! Nice to see you, you havent been around for ages:)x I have really missed your posts:) Blue.x
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:05am
witsend says:
justabouthealed,
wow, thank you for that….Sometimes a little validation of how I percieve this unfolding before me can go a long way in keeping me “sane” over here.
I have my close friends, and I have of course shared some of my experience with my son with them in the past….I have pretty much stopped talking to my friends about this because it is just impossible for me to find the right words to convey what I am trying to say. It is just something that they can’t possibly grasp onto. At least not for now……
I am grateful for a place to share and feel some kind of acceptance. Often times what I experience and see with my son seems really unbelievable to me, AND I am seeing it with my own eyes. So I guess I can understand how they don’t get it….
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:36am
witsend says:
kim frederick,
Yes your two cents does help! I like to hear everyones perspective and experience.
I am still “watching” this unfold before me and trying to understand so much. In the begining it was very difficult for me to make sense out of any of it.
And I was beating myself up so much because, after all this was my son and I felt like a complete failure as a parent when I saw these signs. The guilt and the anguish I felt was almost unbearable.
One of the things that really helped me get through the initial “acceptance” of what I was experiencing was coming here……
And the other thing that really helped me to stop doubting myself was a very important “someone” who was in my life many years ago. A therapist that I saw years ago and for some reason we developed a special bond. (her husband commited suicide as well so that was a bond right there) But I went to her even before my husband died.
She had always told me that I had the best instincts of anyone that she had ever met. I don’t know if that was the actual truth or not. Maybe she told me that to make me more confident in myself, at the time. But for whatever the reason she drilled into me to TRUST that instinct and not question it as I tended to do.
Even though that had been such a long time ago I was able to “draw” onto her words when I really needed to MORE than I ever did before.
Just shows you how people do enter our lives for a reason.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 12:15pm
Twice Betrayed says:
Kim: good post.
Also: I would like to post some info on celiac. I am celiac.
Stress produces cortisol [stress hormone] and cortisol damages the gut. Dealing with p’s puts us into stress mode [fight or flight] which keeps our cortisol levels elevated. Many people in high stress situations are diagnosed celiac. After a lengthy battle with this and docs etc…I have found: staying on the specific carbohydrate diet works better than just going gluten free. Many of us have found this to be true. You can find the diet by googling. The basis is: our guts are damaged and we need to allow them to totally heal. Grains are very hard to digest. Starches are difficult to break down and hard on the gut. Eliminate them and stick to meat, veggies, fruit, nuts and no refined sugars and our guts don’t have to work so hard to break down our food=allowing healing to take place. Go to the specific carbohydrate diet website and read the science behind it. It’s given me life back.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 12:49pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Witsend:
I had a revelation the other night…..
I shared with you earlier, similarities in our sons……
I think I also shared that most of what he shares with me in regards to his thoughts and his outward behaviors has me thinking there is a large ’short’ or gap in his thinking….
Like things just don’t connect in him……
I have taken a totally different approach with this child…..
He is going to do what he does, when he does it and the reality is his consequences are just that HIS.
If he chooses not to graduate and do what is required to achieve that……well, as much as it pains me to think of this……I can’t change that choice…..
So I have resorted down to expecting very little of him.
3 rules….
He MUST be in by 10pm on weekdays….Sun-Thurs
12am on weekends.
He must show respect to me. No profanity etc….
He has mastered the first 2 rules……
Because he found he didn’t like being dropped off at later than set curfew (BY LAW, NOT ME) in the boonies where we live…..and being locked out and have to walk back into town to find a place to sleep.
The first few times….he didn’t get bothered, thought he was punishing me….but it got old quick FOR HIM.
I know when he turns 18…..he will have to fend in the world for himself.
He doesn’t help me around the house AT ALL…..and it ads more stress on me to expect anything and rely on him and be once again…..let down and feel angry… cycle, cycle cycle….same end result!
SO I eliminated those feelings in ME. I find other ways of getting things done.
I DO NOT give him money, I do NOT give him rides. I DO NOT jump when he decides HE needs something.
I will not let him get his drivers licence as long as he doesn’t have a B average……There is NO way he could afford his insurance and car upkeep etc…..(currently maintains an F average) Bummer for HIM.
SO….I cut that option out completely and will NOT discuss it with him…..he tries, I am just not available for that discussion….I have already made my requirements clear!
I cancelled his cell phone and he roams free….I have learned NOT to worry about him……and if he chooses to walk in harms way…..I ALSO HAVE NO CONTROL…..HE WILL NOT LISTEN TO AUTHORITY….any authority…..
He goes against any expectation I have of him…..so it is redundant to share my thoughts and try to help him….it is counter productive…..
So….heres my revelation….
He made a statement about graduation…..(remember the F average)
He is 5 classes behind already and currently failing 2 classes in this ’senior’ year…..
The district requires the 2010 graduates take 4 years of Math and 3 years of Science….
This was counseled on when he entered HS 3 years ago…..
Made VERY CLEAR.
Okay….so he says to me…..as he was trying to explain how stupid the counselor was…..BUT I HAVE TAKEN 4 YEARS OF MATH and SCIENCE!
I said, yes, but you didn’t pass 2 of those math years……he said…..so what, I took them didn’t I. Also science…..
I was so boggled by the fact this was his thoughts…..
I explained to him that he had to PASS and NOT JUST TAKE these years……
He said, the requirement just said he had to TAKE them and he did…….
SO THIS IS THE WAY HE THINKS…….This is his ’short circuit’……
Then he tears up the paper the counselor sent for me to sign to ‘opt out’ of the 4/3 math /science deal……
I said to him, that I suggested if he didn’t understand what was required of him that he needed to do whatever he could to get clear…….such as making an apt. with the counselor etc….
I offered to him that I would be willing to meet with the counselor along with him, so I could be clear too…..(i had already spoken with the counselor and was letting son handle this…..because of his defiance towards me) I just appeared to not be clear……
Bottom line…..He needs to be the one clear on what he is or isn’t doing that WILL affect whether he graduates or NOT.
It’s already clear to me……but I have already graduated…..
But, that comment he made and the lack of connection to his reality is very telling to me.
THIS IS HOW HE VIEWS ALL OF HIS LIFE>………IT all falls between the ’short circuit’ in his head…..
If he doesn’t want to hear it……he places it down that gap…..or tears up paperwork.
Problem solved to him!………until later……and that later is fast approaching.
Witsend, I think of you often….I commiserate with your ordeal……we want the best for our children and we can only do our best with them……
As my therapist once said……We need to let life be their teacher……
That is the hard part for us! We see where they are headed and KNOW they will have regrets!
But life has valuable lessons that we all need to learn…..some easier than others.
Good luck my dear…..keep your spirits up!!!
XXOO
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 1:18pm
skylar says:
interesting how many celiacs are on this blog… Kathleen, TB, Lily and me. Did I miss someone? That really does point to stress as a factor.
I agree about the specific carb diet TB. sugar is bad for me, I use agave syrup.
Kim
Pink Flags, interesting turn of phrase, I’ll have to use that. I’ve never experienced the “time outwhile I ponder my face,” or maybe I just never noticed.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 1:24pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Skylar,
Stress is not a factor in celiac, per se. It’s genetic. However the nutritional requirements created by stress, and the fact that gluten destroys the villi in the small intestine (one of the major places for nutrient absorption), probably add up to accelerated bad symptoms.
TwiceBetrayed, it’s the Selective Carbohydrate Diet (SCD). SCD is a step beyond gluten-free, though it’s elimination of all grains also eliminates gluten. It’s a really amazing healing diet for gut issues, and all the complications of those issues. What it specifically does is kill off the overgrowth of intestinal bacteria, which generate toxins when they consume carbohydrates. The toxins penetrate the intestinal walls (leaky gut syndrom) and create health and brain function problems. The initial cause, by the way, of bacterial overgrowth is arguably related to use of antibiotics and heavy reliance on grain-based foods. (Think of our infants taking antibiotics for their ear infections while they are being fed baby cereal and teething cookies.)
I mentioned in the earlier letter that removing gluten and lactose was a first line of action for children with apparent developmental disorders. The SCD diet is the second line, and it has dramatically good effects on many children with autism.
There is an apparent linkage with celiac, leaky gut and candida. Candida is a systemic thing. Celiac and leaky gut cause systemic issues. Like skin problems, bone problems, joint problems, issues with key organs, immune disorders, etc.
It’s no surprise if many of us are celiac. It’s extremely common in people of western European extraction, as well as many of Mediterranean or Africa origin (though probably by intermarriage). A number of European countries (including pasta-loving Italy) screen children in grade school. No one knows the actually numbers in this country, because it’s so seldom diagnosed, though things are getting better. But I wouldn’t be surprised if were 10 percent or more.
I know that sounds outrageous, but if you can’t imagine giving up bread and pasta, you should probably go in for a blood test. That “addiction” to wheat is a tip-off. And if you think that giving up wheat would be hard, you have no idea what the “detox” phase of the SCD diet is like when all those beasties in your gut are demanding their carbohydrates and then dying off. Whew! It can be a rough week or so, but it’s worth it.
What does all this have to do with us as a sociopath recovery group? Well, it really could have a lot. I got serious about changing my diet in those agonizing early days after I got rid of him. As soon as my mood started to change, I realized how much easier it was for him to manipulate me when I was slightly depressed — anxious and weepy — from gluten all the time.
Later, I did the SCD diet for some months. It took the psychological and physical benefits of the gluten-free diet and magnified them ten times. It’s a cleansing diet; you don’t have to stick to it for the rest of your life, but six months is recommended.
So if you think your body is fighting you in your recovery process, it might be true. Gluten and leaky gut can make you lugubrious. (I love that word, but hate being like that, which I was for too many months.) Getting healthier can really help.
Within a year after getting rid of my S, I got off anti-depressants (after something like five years) when I changed what I ate. I still had to deal with a lot of pain, but I was able to deal with it and think it through, which was simply beyond me when I was still eating wheat.
We’re not all celiac, but if you’re ancestors are from Scandinavia, the British Isles, Holland, France, Germany or Italy, or any of the surrounding countries, you might consider getting tested. Or if you have the other common symptoms — itchy rashes that keep coming back or really terrible intestinal problems. There are other symptoms, but those are the ones that usually tip off the doctors.
It could make your recovery a lot easier.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 4:17pm
Stargazer says:
For the people here who need lawyers but cannot afford them, has anyone checked out prepaid legal services? I actually know of a SOCIOPATH who used one. It costed him $30 a month, but he managed to garner enough attorneys for dozens of frivolous lawsuits, some of which he actually won.
$30 a month sounds like a pretty good deal for ongoing legal representation. What do you guys (especially Matt) think? Has anyone ever tried one?
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 7:56pm
OxDrover says:
Good points, Kathy!
In addition to any problem you have a genetic link for, stress may ACTIVATE the gene which may have lain dormant or semi-dormant. Being highly stressed keeps our bodies from “handling” some things as well as they might otherwise.
During all this chaos, I developed lactose intolerance (to cow milk) which I had not had previously.
Since our “guts” react very strongly to stress they are one of the first “signs” that something is wrong in our lives.
To be a bit graphic, if you are going down the road and get behind a “bull hauler” (large cattle transport) the stench will knock you over (STRESSED cattle being hauled) however, the NORMAL smell of cow manure in UNstressed, healthy animals, even if kept in fairly close confinement is NOT too bad at all. The stress of being herded with STRANGERS who are fighting for room in a crowded environment STRESSEs the cattle to the point that they get MAJOR BOWEL UPSETS.
The high carbohydrate diet (80%) that is fed to cattle to fatten them in feed yards were they are again CONTINUALLY under stress fighting for dominance and space as well as food and water is why much of the REAL flavor of the beef (commercial) we eat is nothing close to that produced from UN-stressed cattle.
In both the cattle and in humans, stress causes a marked pH change in the contents of the stomachs and bowels as well as small intestine. All of this contributes as well to “gut” problems in highly stressed mammals.
The speed of motility of the gut contents has also been linked to cancer in humans as well, so all kinds of “stress responses” effect our health (or lack of it) as well as whether nutrients are absorbed or not. Under stress, our blood is re-directed to the muscles rather than to the liver first which is where much activity goes on that has to do with absorbing and processing nutrients, so stress effects absorption as well.
Stress also effects glucose metabolism as well, which is why we feel “washed out” after a particularly stressful episode as the muscles have “used up” the stored and available glucose.
Like you, I highly recommend attention to our bodies needs and taking care of ourselves, reducing stress as much as possible, and being “good to” ourselves.
BTW good to see you back posting, thanks for some good information and FOOD FOR THOUGHT! (a bit of a PUN there!) LOL
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 8:15pm
skylar says:
Stargazer,
One of my P-neighbors uses those lawyers. They draw up papers but don’t represent you in court. One of her favorite things to do is file frivolous lawsuits. She always has one or two going on. (perhaps it’s a P-trate to watch for?) God I hate her…
but anyway…
Oxy, the celiac gene isn’t triggered but gluten-intolerance, which is different from a genetic pre-disposition of celiac, CAN be triggered by stress hormones. Candida overgrowth can result from anything that lowers your immune system. That includes stress hormones like cortisol.
It gets a tiny bit complicated, I’ll try to be succinct.
Celiac disease causes damage to the lining of the intestinal wall and allows candida to grow rampant. But cortisol lowers your immune system so that ALSO allows candida overgrowth. Candida happens to LOVE wheat gluten and any other carbs, especially sugar. Candida overgrowth also damages the intestinal lining. So you see the connection? Its the same symptoms and outcome but it isn’t the same immune response or the same trigger. The end result for both cases is a compromised intestinal wall in which that candida leaks through and then your immune system “memorizes” the candida as an enemy and you become sensitive to it. Furthermore, all kinds of food particles leak through so that you form anti-bodies to many of your favorite foods. Then you have multiple food allergies.
Gluten sensitivity actually comprises a number of complicated immune responses and many of the tests have deceptive results. The immune system is not nearly as well understood as the mainstream media makes it appear to be.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 9:29pm
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, been a while since i’ve posted and im still fighting the no contact like an addiction. Sometimes it’s moment to moment and i hope it gets easier. I’ve been talking to a gentleman who is in an abusive relationship himself and im at a loss as he seems to be even worse off than i have been. Its probably not a good situation as he’s married but i’m just listening as a friend and it’s disturbing to say the least and it’s got me wondering how people have looked at me over my going back over and over to the sociopath after he has treated me like crap. This guy is a detective to make things even more unbeleivable. He told me of how distant his wife is and he said that her gym overlooks a great room that he was in recently reading a book while she worked out and he felt something wet and realized that out of the blue she just spit at him for no reason right in front of their daughter. I was speachless while listening and then he had to ask me questioning himself saying “that’s ignorant right” . I was listening to myself as he spoke only worse. This guy has been living in it so long i think he feels as he put it that their is nothing left of him. At one time i thought i found this guy attractive and now i just felt as tho he was just pathetic putting up with all the crap he has been taking from this woman. I was staring at a man and a police detective to boot who has been beaten down so badly that he has resigned himself to a life of misery and blaming himself for spoiling her as he put it by doing all the cleaning and cooking etc. and i was like how the hell could any of this be your fault. He mentioned going on a course to Toronto for sexual abuse cases and i thought isn’t it perplexing how we can have all the answers for everyone else but ourselves. This guy has dealt with abuse from every angle etc. but couldn’t see it in his own marriage. I think in the future the only advice i can give is to seek professional help for himself. I know im maybe getting in over my head just having any type of relationship with him but i don’t feel as though i can turn my back on him. any advice any of you have for me as im left with a sick feeling that he is resigned to this life and i have enogh of my own issues at the moment just trying to maintain no contact with the socio in my life. love kindheart
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:14pm
skylar says:
you know it occurred to me, you might, because you’re living in a fantasy and you enjoy weird things like torturing other human beings for no reason whatsoever, um you would like a play by play of how successful you are so, you know, they’ve got this thing called twitter, where everybody twits these little mini-messages. I’m not really familiar with that. But maybe I should email you a play by play of everything through out the day, so, you know, I can just uh, tell you so that you can see, how it’s all goin’ day, minute by minute day by day. You know, maybe that would help bring your level of bullshit even higher. Umm, I don’t know, what d’you think of that?
Why don’t you email me and tell me if you would like a, a minute by minute, posting of my, oh I don’t know, let’s say every hour, or just when I feel throughout the day. So that, you get the general sense, you know, you might enjoy that. I’ll bet you would.
I didn’t post all yesterday’s messages because there were 4 of them and all complaining because I wasn’t answering the phone so he was contacting his lawyer.
But this message just came in and I couldn’t help laughing. My exP is he POSTER CHILD FOR PSYCHOPATHS. ROTFLOL.
He is projecting all his psychopathic traits on me and in the process revealing all his true thoughts but doesn’t know it. Isn’t it wonderful when they get to that stage? It’s the only time you can actually tell what they are really thinking:
you’re living in a fantasy and you enjoy weird things like torturing other human beings for no reason whatsoever
LOL. it’s too funny. I’m so tempted to tell him “Yes, that would be wonderful! send me a minute my minute twitter!” But I won’t cuz Oxy will boink me! LOL, thanks Oxy for the boink-fear. Anyway, I think he’s going to do it anyway. I expect various emails tomorrow.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:24pm
skylar says:
kindheart,
I just saw your message.
I think I’m the resident bushwacker on LF, because I suspect a P in every bush. Although I don’t see any red flags in your post about your friend, I have to ask you to step back and figure out a way to give him some rope. What if he’s using the pity ploy? The only flags I see are pink: he’s in law enforcement and he should know better. Also, doing all the cooking and cleaning is not a sign of being abused by a P. Do not give him any more clear cut examples and see if he comes up with any on his own. Spitting is not one of them.
Wait for him to talk about stuff you have not talked about. Has he mentioned lying about everything for no reason? Demanding inordinate attention? Raging, Charming, pityploys?
Has he mentioned that he so confused about his marriage because she loves him one minute and hates him the next? Is he “walking on eggshells”? Is he having panic attacks when she calls? Any gaslighting? Demands for help on things that she could do herself? acting helpless?
The p-traits fit certain patterns. You have to memorize those patterns and see if the behavior fits. It’s not easy. Report your findings back to us and we can analyze from afar. sometimes that works better.
Read my post above. The bold type is an actual voice message from the P and he knows how to project his own sickness onto me. So be careful.
sorry to be such a paranoid. I just know how they lie and lie and lie.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:39pm
Twice Betrayed says:
skylar: yeah, gut candida is one I am still fighting. Stress, yep. Years and years of it from the P. I had not had sugar in years. I ate quiet a bit last Christmas along with wheat…[before I knew I was celiac.] I almost checked out….I was sick for months. I could not eat hardly anything. I have to stay on the specific carb diet. I’m telling you….these P’s put the hurt on our health. I have known several really nice ladies married to- what I now realize were P males….that died from cancer. Mine would have just buried me, done a stage act at the funeral, took everything and had another woman before sundown. I read where Roman Polanski and Ryan O’Neal [both] hit on women at their wives’ funeral. Turns out the one O’Neal hit on was Tatum, his own daughter.
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:46pm
shabbychic says:
kindheart… one thing I’ve learned here at LF, and I’m still trying to make it sink into my head… other people’s problems are NOT my problem. Yes, tell him to get professional help, then run in the other direction, he’s married.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:48pm
shabbychic says:
sky, so he’s going to twitter a play by play description of how you are successfully torturing him? He’s a twit! What happened to the campfire of looooooooooove?
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:56pm
skylar says:
TB,
yes, my aunt, by her marriage to my dad’s brother, died of intestinal lymphoma about 20 years ago. Her husband was my dad’s brother and a horrible P. he had affairs with women that they both worked with. Everyone knew and she was a very old fashioned and prim woman who was mortified by it. She didn’t leave him. She got intestinal lymphoma.
That is the disease that you get when you are celiac and keep eating wheat your whole life. She was so tired, she would eat twinkies for breakfast. I still feel anguish at her death. We weren’t close, but when I found out about her emotional pain and knew what my uncle had done, it just traumatized me.
He was never very nice to me either. When he went to pick us up after school, if I was late, he would drive away and make me run after the car until he pulled over. What a fuckin dick. P’s run in my family like there’s no tomorrow. makes me want to die.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:57pm
skylar says:
SC,
Lol, thanks for the laugh. you killllll me!
LOL
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Tuesday, 29 September 2009 @ 11:58pm
Twice Betrayed says:
sky: I am sorry to hear that! Just so unfair.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 12:17am
blueskies says:
Kindheart:)x my thoughts on your post is that sometimes its good to talk to someone who understands what you are going through, and that’s fine, but I think if it starts to drain your already depleted reserves you owe it to yourself (you have no obligation to him) to step away, doesnt matter if he’s and s/p/n or not.
I am really noticing now when I feel drained by someone, and I’m getting caught up in someone elses ’stuff’ and learning to direct it back from whence it came or stepping away. another little bit of progress.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 4:53am
kim frederick says:
I found this article to be of some assistance to those of us that can’t seem to break the bond, and who struggle to remain NC. Towanda!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 8:49am
kim frederick says:
Sorry,I forgot to add the link. But it seems that it’s not working anyway. I’ll try again.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 8:54am
kim frederick says:
http://search.yahoo.com/search.....&type=
Yay!! It worked.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 8:56am
kim frederick says:
Well, heck, no it didn’t. If you click on above link, then select Neither is this narcissistic injury, You’ll get there. Phew! Hope some of you are still with me on this. It’s worth the effort!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 9:00am
skylar says:
thanks Kim, thats a great website. Very informative.
Gotta make sure that when I cause a n-injury, it’s done right.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 9:24am
kim frederick says:
Exactly!!!!
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 9:43am
skylar says:
http://thelastpsychiatrist.com......html#more
From the same website, this article talks about the narcissist that feels he is running out of time on this earth. George Sandini, the healthclub killer, did this.
My exP is doing this too. In his messages, he keeps talking about running out of time. He says he has 15 years before he’s 70.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 9:59am
kindheart48 says:
Skylar and Shabby and everone else, i agree that i can’t fix his situation and i also kow from several sources as it’s such a small city that she’s a headcase, inordenate attention one minute and hating him the next hence the spitting on him. It actually freaked me out to see how disturbed he really is in the sense that he’s actually questioning himself blaming that he spoiled her etc. I know from others she has betrayed him , he coming home at least once to find her in bed with another man and he couldn’t afford to lose it . He separated from her in 2003 , her idea and he supported her and kids moving them out , then aft a year he met a woman he told me about and his story and others match up , this woman he dated for only 3 monts and he said the relationship was so different, as she gave back and his wife won’t give anything. This woman he was seeing got into another relationship that ended after 2 years and she has called this detective but he won’t call back, doesn’t want to hurt her again or lead her on so to speak. It actually sickened me to see how someone could take this guy who dances, sings professionally , does numerous charities , has so much going for him literally lost , not much self left and it sure made me take a look at how people must have perceived me while going through the same crap with the socio. He’s def not a socio, just a very abused man who thinks this is basically his lot in life. So far with his collegues , they wish he’d not put up with what crap they know is going on and i can’t find anyone who has anything bad to say about him so nothing matches up with a disorder, now the wife a different story, suspect borderline (both parent he said were alcoholic throwing ashtrayss etc.). and shabby your advice i s dead on , i don’t need the wrath of her at this point in my life, im trying to get back on my feet at work. I have a gf who told me some time ago that this guy knows his wife will make his life a literally hell along with any woman he sees as she grabbed him back the moment she found out he had a lady that was interested in him so his wife is definately trouble from any standpoint. I can tell she’s an attention seeker , very unfriendly type out for herself. kindheart
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:15am
luv716 says:
The SP sent me the I Still Love You text, and the end of the text he added Thank God! At first I was gonna keep it to myself but it’s tearing me apart! It took everything in my not to text him back I love you too! Why or How could you do this to me but I didn’t! I just hurt alone….I can’t even pick up the phone to call him or text him because I’m so mad at what he done to me! Using me and taking my kindness for weakness is a bad thing. What could I possibly say to him. I’m sorry for wanting love so bad that I fell for all you done to me, I shoulda left when I saw the signs. I wonder by me not responding to his text did it matter, I hope maybe a little him thought I did her wrong, just a little part!
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:15am
kindheart48 says:
guys , he is also using the excuse that he stays for the kids, only one left and she almost out of nest. You know i admited to him how abusive i was in my relationship with my exhusband as i was drinking alot and thought it was his job to entertain me and keep me happy but i have to say i couldn’t hold a candle to this woman, i would never have cheated on my husband nor disrespected him in the way this girl does. This guy is very talll, dark and good looking with so much going for him but when i heard it all i thought , he’s so far from being healthy, needs professional help and here he is going on conferences to deal with abuse as he’s the one who talks or negotiates when there is suicide , child abuse etc. and he can’t help himself
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:24am
kim frederick says:
Luv, read my posts above and go to link. Click on “neither is this a narcissistic injury. I think it might be helpful to you. Stay strong, girl.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:27am
kim frederick says:
Kindheart, yeah, it sounds like he’s had a tough row to hoe. Doesn’t matter, there’s something that isn’t right here, even if it’s just being a chronic victim. Stear clear…just MHO.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:31am
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, im reading on the intestinal thing and im getting paranoid. I just lost my dad in july to pancreatic, bowel cancer. I’ve lost so much weight over last year, after leaving trauma program as we had regualar eating schedule and now im empty nesting as my son lft for military and i i want to eat it seems are gummie worm, candy . I and my shrink think it’s my head is spinning and i can’t keep weight on but im wondering if it’s more. I an d my friends seem to be the only ones concerned, docs are too busy anymore. I crave deserts and candy but not much else and i have to admit i eat so sporatically and i;ve been having indigestion something of which i never get. Just wondering why i crave candy all the time. I don’t need any more scares in my life so pl don’t scare me , i know i’ve done enough damage with the s already and im trying to stay no contact and it’s like fighting the alcohol in the beginiing
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:32am
skylar says:
Luv, do what Kim says. she’s right. The link explains it best.
Kindheart,
You convinced me that he isn’t a P. Suggest to him some the books about narcissism. I like “why is it always about you?” and “Freeing Yourself from the Narcissist in Your Life
by Linda Martinez-Lewi”
I’m also reading “the art of selfishness” but that book should be read AFTER you already understand the evil of narcissism.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Kindheart,
Welcome back!
To answer your question, I think that you need ALL your resources for YOU and that I agree with the above posts that you should RECOMMEND professional counseling for HIM, and then DISENGAGE from this man.
Him dis-ing his wife, and excusing why he stays with her “for the kids” to me is a CLASSIC P-pity ploy OR it is VERY dysfunctional—either way, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE INVOLVED IN THIS TRIANGLE. You cannot rescue him, he must do it for himself.
YOU need to take care of YOU! He needs to take care of HIMself. I think this is the classic VICTIM-PERSECUTOR-RESCUER, “game” and you are insertinig youself in the position of the “rescuer” and he is playing the “victim” and the wife is the “persecutor”—-but what ALWAYS happens in these games is the players end up PLAYING MUSICAL CHAIRS and changing positions, you could find yourself in the role of VICTIM in this game pretty quickly.
The whole thing, stinks to me of a bad situation FOR YOU, no matter what is going on—a heads you lose, tails you lose! RUN!!!!
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:05am
witsend says:
ErinBrockovich,
Gosh Erin I WISH that I could believe in that simple statement. “We need LIFE to be their teacher”, what your therapist said. I mean that IS the general idea of being a parent. We try our best to raise our kids and give them alot of love, and all the basics & the “tools” we think they will need and then set them “free” into the real world. In the hopes that what we taught them will guide them in their journey of life. When my oldest went out on his own, ( a few years before he got married) although it was also bittersweet moment for me when he left home, (it always is) it was also time for him to learn to live in the real world. I felt in my heart that he was well “equiped” and he would be fine. I never felt the FEAR or the panic that I do with this one…
I believe that for most parents, when getting through the teenage years it is pretty much a case of “picking your battles” and “this to shall pass”. Teenage years can be troubling years but, you can pretty much STILL see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I would LOVE to believe that LIFE will teach my younger son the lessons in life that I have been unable to teach him. I can tell you that I wouldn’t be here if I really believed that.
Like you I have had to make an “adjustment” in my parenting. A different approach. He is “wired” differently. Things don’t “click” with him. I have learned through trial and error that everything has to be cut and dried with him. Keep it simple. A FEW (2 or 3) rules, followed, are better than a handful not followed.
He hasn’t learned any lessons as they present themselves to him, over and over again. Even the simplest of lessons are lost on him. He always feels like he has “won” even when he has “lost”. He is a classic example of someone who is willing to bite their own nose off to spite their face.
As much as the outside behavior is troubling, the failing at school, the older girls that have befriended him, coming home after curfew, running “awol” ( me not being able to locate him) and not coming home until he is good and ready, I mean the list could go on and on…..These things as bad as they might be are not really the issues.
I have long ago resigned myself that this kid is NOT going to graduate from high school.
He won’t be taking drivers Ed or have a license until he is 18, because of course he was supposed to take “responsibility” at school and pass, and that isn’t happening.
His way AROUND THAT was to “make friends” with some older girls and they cart his butt around town. He tells these girls that he has it so terrible at home & they are feeling so sorry for him…..
I do NOT provide him with a phone because he will not even pick up if I call or bother to call home, if he is out, or going to be late or whatever. His way around that is he buys his own phone (a track phone).
It doesn’t really matter what I do or do not do anymore. It doesn’t matter what the school does or does not do anymore. He finds a way around everything.
He has a sense of entitelment that I have never seen the likes of before. He has a feeling of superiority that includes his peers and even his older friends that he works with. At one time I thought he might maybe have looked up to these OLDER boys…But no such luck. He TOLD me straight up….They are ordinary, will go on to live ordinary lives.
He has a part time job and again for most kids it is a GOOD thing to learn responsibility having their first job. I teaches them values and being responsible. My son has even taken this “good thing” of having a job at a young age and instead of learning the good things a first job teaches he has only taken in the NEGATIVE thing. The only thing he respects is money. And so now that he has earned money he takes this as power. Power=Money….Money=Power. He doesn’t need me to give him money for anything….He has his own. If he wants something bad enough he will go out and buy it. It makes him feel very POWERFUL. In control. None of his friends his age have a job except one. He has money in the bank. He feels superior in this way with his friends.
HE feels superior to everyone. He uses everyone. He manipulates everyone and everything around him.
He doesn’t have any kind of “connection”, emotional or otherwise, to anyone or anything. Including his friends. Also to include his dog. He is abusive to his own dog.
I don’t believe for one minute that when my son goes out into the world to live his life, that he is going to learn anything.
The hard knocks of life that WILL be bestowed on him will just make him angry. As all consequences seem to do with him and he will just retaliate…..And continue to use and abuse even further…..
I don’t know where it will all end…..But I don’t percieve it to be a good ending.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:08am
OxDrover says:
PS–Kindheart—carbohydrates are a food that helps us to “calm down”—a carbohydrate load makes us mellow and sleepy, so when you are stressed it is normal to ‘crave” these foods.
I suggest that you get a complete medical check up, but the stress may be partly the cause if nothing else is wrong. don’t be paranoid, just take care of yourself, EAT better and decrease the stress in your life….starting with the guy you were asking about.
Stress interacts with ALL body systems in a negative way if it is prolonged, so in GENERAL it effects ALL systems in our body, including our thinking and moods. Using our good sense to TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES in a HEALTHY WAY, with healthy eating (even if we crave something else) and getting appropraite REST are two things that we CAN take CHARGE of and “make” ourselves do. Even if we can’t “sleep” we can get REST which helps the body. We CAN make ourselves eat “right” and appropriate amounts and good foods.
So I suggest that instead of worrying that you take ACTION, get a check up medically to see that you don’t have diabetes or soemthing else, and then ADOPT HEALTHY LIFE STYLE of good foods and exercise—exercise also releases hormones that help calm us, and burns up stress hormones.
Good luck and GOOD HEALTH! (((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:10am
witsend says:
Kindheart,
Welcome back.
…One of the things that we do as empathetic, kind and giving people is we try and be a good friend…We listen to other peoples problems and try to even help them solve their problems. And interestingly enough other peoples problems seem much easier to solve than our own…Of course there is reason for that. When we are not emotionally involved with the problem the options seem much clearer somehow.
One of the biggest problems that we face when we are trying to be the “good friend” and help someone or even just be a good listener is that we take the focus OFF of our own recovery or our own problems and focus on the other persons problems.
I know that you are familiar with the program of AA, as I believe we have talked about AA before. Isn’t that one of the biggest “newbie” rules in AA. Don’t get into a relationship for a year. Focus on your recovery.
Not to say that you are interested in dating this guy…But you said that you were having trouble with your own recovery as far as N/C with your X, and are newly back here at your support group LF, and you just lost your father in July and have some unresolved feelings about that and the rest of your extended family, you are trying to adjust to having an empty nest, your having health problems keeping weight on……… Kindheart, sounds like you have a FULL plate now.
Its just MHO that maybe you need to just focus on yourself right now…..Do what they tell you at AA. First things first. Take care of you.
This guy has lots of problems. Don’t take them on as your responsibility. You have enough to deal with.
xoxox
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:41am
Twice Betrayed says:
Kim/Skylar: thanks for those links. Interesting.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:46am
skylar says:
Kindheart: here’s an article about that. I posted the link but I also cut and pasted a portion of the article below it.
http://www.easy-immune-health......ivity.html
When you can’t stop eating carbs it’s not your fault
We talked about sugar cravings from the candida overgrowth in the gut, but there are other things going on that create powerful cravings as well.
The reaction of gluten proteins in the gut creates a substance called gliadomorphin. This morphine-like compound causes you to become physically addicted to the gluten that is creating so many problems!
This is the reason why you crave carbohydrates.
You actually become “addicted” to them much the way an alcoholic becomes addicted to alcohol!
Specific cells lining the intestinal tract create enzymes to digest food and these, too, are damaged in this process. If you can’t secrete the enzyme lactase, lactose can no longer be digested and you become intolerant to milk as well!
And to top it off, the undigested dairy protein, called casein, reacts in your gut to make ANOTHER morphine-like substance called caseomorphin. So you become intolerant and addicted to dairy as well!!
So, at this point, if gluten sensitivity is left untreated, you will crave wheat, milk and sugar – exactly the foods that are the worst for you!!
Read more: http://www.easy-immune-health......z0SbpzaVRa
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 11:50am
Kathleen Hawk says:
kindheart, here is another way to look at it.
People get stuck. In a way, our entire lives are about healing. This is, undoing old coping mechanisms that don’t work anymore. And finding how to be the centered, at-home-in-the world people we’re meant to be.
But all of us get stuck occasionally. We find ourselves in bad situations that clearly don’t work for us. But our old rules don’t give us a way to fix it. And we can’t see an alternative that doesn’t make us “bad” according to those old rules.
Some people get stuck in really bad situations for a long time. This may be an addiction, a bad marriage, a career we don’t like. What is common among them is that they’re self-destructive. Sometimes very obviously. But other times, they just slowly destroy our spirit, our optimism and hope.
These things are challenges. That’s really what they are — life challenges. They challenge us to either thrive or decline. Sometimes we don’t recognize how self-destructive they are until we are at the edge of being deminished to a point of no return. That was certainly my case with my sociopath. And it’s the case with people who bottom out and start going to AA or another 12-step program. But eventually, if we’re going to survive, we have to recognize that we’re facing a choice. We can learn and grow, or we can just fade away.
These people you’re talking to are stuck. All these reasons they are giving you for why they have to be stuck are their old rules that don’t work. They’re in a bad position, because they can see that their lives aren’t working, but they haven’t bottomed out yet. They haven’t started to take a hard look at themselves, their own behavior and beliefs, as a significant factor in their terrible situations.
When recognize that our lives are on the line, we tend to toughen up. We take a vacation from worrying about everyone else, and get serious about taking care of ourselves. Some people don’t do this until they literally face death. Some people do it a lot sooner, when they decide they don’t like the life they’re living. They realize it doesn’t match their values or their dreams, and they decide to do something about it.
These people who tell you their sad stories are actually doing something good for themselves. They are getting their live tragedies out of their heads, and putting words to it. Even if they’re whining or blaming everyone else. Just talking about it is working on it.
If you want to be a good influence on the situation, you could say something like, “That must be very hard for you.” This acknowledges the fact that they’re in bad situations. But I wouldn’t go any further than that, not even to ask, “What are you doing to take care of yourself?”
Because once you start that conversation, you’re volunteering to become involved.
Unless you want to become involved. You might, because you might think that talking through their challenges might lend your some insight on your own. But it’s seldom that simple. Getting involved with people who are stuck usually means that you become part of their unhappy drama. One moment you are their savior, and the next, you are a disappointment to them. Because it’s really not about you. It’s about the fact that their life rules aren’t working, and they’ve got to learn and change. Until they do, everything in their lives is, sooner or later, going to give them evidence that their life isn’t working.
Every one of us has the opportunity to pick our own learning environments. If you want to learn more about personal dysfunction, these guys will certainly provide that. It sounds like it might be more useful to you right now to learn about how to keep yourself more physically healthy.
If you don’t mind a suggestion, you might buy a big bottle of “green” pills at the health food store and some mineral supplements. Green pills are dry vegetable juices. It sounds like your body is over-the-top acid and you need to get it alkalinized. Coffee, sugar, grains and meat all push your body to the acid side. Green vegetables and minerals will help moderate that. If you start getting more alkaline, you’ll probably develop an appetite for better food and find these cravings reduced.
Take care of yourself, honey. There’s no one more important or interesting.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 12:00pm
kindheart48 says:
thanks to you allfor the advice it brought me to tears and you are all so insightful as i am still grieving my dad and detoxing the s. I am going to keep a healthy distance but i am going to give him my copy of the Betrayal Bond to take to toronto on his course as he was hoping to be alone an d hopefully he can gain some perspective but it’s not my issue. I know he needs professional help and im not qualified. Sad sad and makes me rethink my own situation so maybe God works in mysterious ways. love kindheart
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 12:14pm
Rosa says:
KindHeart48:
I would not even advise this man to seek professional help.
I would just back away from that situation ASAP.
From what I am reading, this is a HOT MESS, and you do not need to be involved in that.
If what he is telling you is true, that he’s staying for the kids, then he will be free soon. Because his last child is about to leave the nest, according to your above post.
Have you spoken to his wife? What is her side of the story?
Does she get to defend herself and her behavior? There may be some very good reasons for the way she is.
I try to base a person’s character on MY OWN experiences with that person, rather than on rumours that may or may not be circulating about someone.
Just a hunch, but I bet this guy is skewing his story a bit to make himself look good in your eyes, and to play on your sympathies. I could be wrong, though.
As far as what everyone else in this town is saying, that is just hear-say and gossip, as far as I am concerned. Are they in the house with this married couple? Are they eating meals and sleeping with them? Are they waking up with this couple every morning? I doubt it.
At the end of the day, NOBODY really knows what goes on behind closed doors in any given marraige, EXCEPT the two people in that marraige.
Everything else is speculation, gossip, and inuendo.
I have never met a man yet who wanted to “befriend” me because he was a happily married man.
Of course, he is going to give you the sob story about his home life with his wife.
Regardless of whether he is a S or not, they all do that. At least from my own experiences, they do.
He’s a big boy, he chose to get into this marraige. And when he’s had enough, he will get out.
Either way, I don’t think any of this is your problem.
I think you deserve much better than this.
Take care of yourself, KindHeart.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 12:50pm
Rosa says:
Luv716:
Has he repaid the money that he took from you?????
“I still Love you” text = “Please don’t ask for the money I took from you.”
Stay strong, Luv.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 12:56pm
Rosa says:
Luv716:
“and the end of the text he added ‘Thank God’.”
I’ll bet he did.
He’s thanking God that you are not asking for your money back.
If I recall correctly, it was well over $1000.
And, he may even try to come trotting back for more money, at some point in the future.
I really believe that this man is a con-artist, Luv.
I know it is difficult, but try to keep the No Contact rule going, if you can.
We are all here to support you.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 1:52pm
skylar says:
Luv,
I hope you checked out the link that Kim posted. The best reply is no reply BUT, if you should feel the need to text him back, text: “what? who is this?”
when he replies, say, “Oh, OK”
Any further replies would follow that line, “what was your last name again?”
or
“are you the guy with the green mazda?”
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 2:19pm
luv716 says:
Rosa: yes he owes me way over $1000
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 2:38pm
luv716 says:
He owe me a lot of money, everytime I think about it my heart drop! its SAD
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 2:53pm
alicia says:
I am having a VERY DIFFICULT time and it has been 8 months. My ex lives 7 doors away with his new girlfriend (victim) who he was with for months (cheating on me). I knew there was someone else, but he wouldn’t let me go! Each time I left, he terrorized me, at least that is what it felt like! I was with him 5 years off and on. I learned so much since finding LoveFraud, but I am so very depressed. I haven’t found another place to live. I’ve been looking for a new place one year after I moved here (getting involved with him). I can’t take it! I thought the pain was gone but then it came back worse than ever. Why did he keep telling me he “loved” me and would not let me go when he already was seeing someone else for months? I broke up with him so many times, but he just kept coming back and then finally one day, he left, but he still continued to harass me that week and occasionally, he still does. Did he have to hook her first before he let me go or did he want to see us both and hurt one of so badly (namely me). We both had keys! I have no feelings for him. When I see him now; I see evil and I do get nauseous, but everytime I see her car (a brand new Lexus) – I don’t have a car, I get so pissed. I have so much anger, rage, bittnerness, frustration, anger, anger, anger, which turns into depression, panic attacks and isolation. I’m sure this gives him power. I know it does, but somedays, I just can’t go outside. I think I hate her just as much as I hate him. A few of us tried to tell her what he is really like and she doesn’t believe us or care to hear it. I even sent her copies of all the “love” emails he was writing me while he was seeing her and letters and every time he came by and knocked on my door and followed me, etc…and she doesn’t care. She is as nasty as he is and she is a LIAR too. She told me that he denies ever going out with me and so does he whole family. Everything she said to me was nothing but a lie and I knew it. Why did she do this? I never got closure. He never let me yell at him, tell him how I felt, nothing. He just turned into the ice man and did everything he could to block me out of his life. She lives there and everybody knows it. This is against the rules of the lease, but he gets away with it just as he did in the past. He gets away with everything. The Housing Authority are intimidated by him. I am not anymore and he knows this. I am not intimidated by her either. But, I think I am jealous and angry at her and I hate myself for it just as I hate myself for ever going with him after I was warned by so many people and taking him back, forgiving him, giving him so many chances and overlooking – even after the abuse of every kind. I still went back after I swore I would NEVER. I hate myself and all I do is lay in my bed and wonder what they are doing (I know what they are probably doing) and I get angry and revengeful and then sometimes out of nowhere I wanthim. It is as if I try to will him to come over and knock on my door. I’m crazy. I don’t love him. I don’t think I ever did so why in the world would I want this monster to hold me in his arms and comfort me and fall asleep in his arms? I hate myself for everything. I try to trust God and look to Him for help and deliverance, and one day, I’m fine…the next, it’s back to the emotional roller coaster ride. In our 5 year toxic, abusive, sick relationship, I’ve attempted suicide twice. He didn’t care. All he cared about was himself and he still does. One of the things that bother me the most and I am obsessed with the thoughts, and that is: does he really love her; he knew her from high school and she went out with his brother and she thinks she he is the same, right!!! But, maybe he really loves her. It has been almost a year since they have been together. Usually, when I broke up with him, he would get someone very fast (usually a prostitute or some crack addict), but this time he has someone with two jobs and a Lexus. I don’t think she is pretty. She looks like a bull and she is very tough and sarcastic and mean. He complained about “my verbal abuse.” She treats him like he is her son and she sounds like a warden. How am I ever going to get over this monster living there? I am sick to my stomach just typing this and thinking about it. When am I going to stop getting jealous of her and angry each time I see her car. Do you think he really loves her? He must if he is with her so long, which makes me feel worse than I already do. All I want to do is drink alcohol and go to sleep (another bad habit I picked up in additon to cursing and raging while I was with him. I don’t know what and how to get over this and it is destroying me inside and my relationships with my family and friends. I need help but I can’t find a therapist who deals with this and even if I did, I still have to see him because I still live there. I’m OK when I’m not there for a day or two, but it only takes seeing her car and thinking and knowing and obsessing about what he did to me after 5 years of me being nice to him…and it all comes back…and all I want to do is go to sleep and never wake up. I wont attempt suicide anymoe, because he is not worth it and it will only give him more power and he and his new tomboy girlfriend will only laugh at me more than they already do including his friends. I feel powerless and hopeless and I have no self esteem or self worth. Do you really think it is possible for him to love her or anyone? He claimed to love me and professed it to the world, and he still occasionally “plays” with my head, but could he? I’m so hurt. WHAT MAKES ME VERY ANGRY IS THAT THIS MONSTER ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS GETS SOMEONE ASAP AND I AM STILL ALONE, ALWAYS ALONE AND IT IS SO DEPRESSING AND LONELY ESPECIALLY ON THE WEEKENDS WHEN ALL THE CURTAINS AND THE BLINDS AND THE LIGHTS ARE CLOSED IN THE APT 7 DOORS AWAY WHERE I SPENT A LOT OF MY LIFE (WASTED AND RUINED A LOT OF MY LIFE). HOW DO I GET BETTER? I TRY, BUT I FEEL LIKE SUCH A FOOL AND EACH TIME I HAVE TO WALK BY THEM OR I RUN INTO THEM, I FEEL LIKE SUCH A STUPID FOOL. (By the way, he saw me enter this library an hour ago. He followed me and he is stalking me…this isn’t the first time.) Do you see what I mean? Why does he do this? I don’t want to go back into the hospital again. I need to change my environment. I am so sad. Please help me. Thank you.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 2:54pm
luv716 says:
And No he hasn’t repaid me I’m coming to reality that he’s not going to pay me, I’m tripping because I wonder how can he go on with his everyday life.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 2:54pm
Rosa says:
Luv716:
If you have been No Contact since we talked last, then you are doing GREAT!
The longer you are in No Contact, the easier it will become.
As for him and his text messages, you could be receiving text messages for the next 10 years saying, “I still love you.”
Don’t let the text messages pull on your heart strings, because there is no action to back up the words, from what I can see.
If you do not respond to his text messages, phone calls, etc., he will eventually go away.
And, if by some miracle, he sends you a check for the full amount of money that he owes you, cash it immediately.
Make sure it does not bounce, and REMAIN IN NO CONTACT.
Please leave this man in your past, so you can get on with your future.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 3:01pm
luv716 says:
Yeah I’m really trying to stay with the NC, the last time we talk was about a week ago and he was suppose to be sending a company over to have my roof repaired with I don’t have the money to do becaus he used it all. And of course he lied again no one ever showed up. That incedent made me strong with the NC rule. Like I said the text did pull my heart strings I wanted so bad to tell him I loved him too, but brother is not right no matter how many times I cut the pie it don’t even out he was wrong for leaving me bold. Leaving my family without!!!!!!
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 3:26pm
skylar says:
Alicia,
you need laughter in your life. The first thing I would laugh at is how he has chosen the life of a prostitute. He is with a hideously ugly bull woman just because she has a lexus.
She, on the other hand, because of her hideousness, had to accept an emotionless conman for a partner. Don’t you think it’s kind of funny?
Almost all of my healing has centered around my ability to find humor in all of this ridiculous drama that rules the P’s lives. You aren’t laughing because you are still thinking of him as human. You think he feels happy. He can’t feel anything but envy. That’s why he wants to make everyone else feel envy.
He has really done a number on your thought patterns and the alcohol isn’t helping either (said the kettle to the pot). Whenever you think of him, I want you to imagine him in a diaper and a baby teeshirt. Everything else you imagine about him will now be tainted with that image. NEVER imagine him or think of him looking any other way but in a diaper. This will be the most ACCURATE and realistic portrayal of him. It will bring you back to reality with a laugh.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 3:47pm
Twice Betrayed says:
alicia: sky is right. These people play at life. They just act a role. He needs an overbearing woman in his life to mama him and make him feel like he is being spanked and demanded of daily. She needs a son to smack around. Look at the dysfunction in this ‘relationship’. This is a hookup based on obsession not love. There is a difference. [Just like there is a difference between strength and cruelty.] It’s like Ann Landers used to say: the rocks in his head match the holes in hers………
Make up your mind to find peace and a sense of self worth. Work on who YOU are and leave them to themselves. Besides; if you got this creep back, what would you have? Same old stuff- different day. Naw, life is too short to waste any more on these people. Focus on getting a healthy view of life/relationships and leave them to the cesspool of life. [It's hard but I would begin by prayer to God for help/wisdom/understanding.] I would say tho you REALLY need to get away from living close to them.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 4:26pm
kim frederick says:
Alicia, He doesn’t love her. He is using her for her Lexis, her connections, whatever. You need to GET OUT OF THERE. It may hurt you to understand this, but he didn’t love you, either. Not because you aren’t lovable, but because He can’t love. She will be discarded soon, also, you can bet your bottom dollar on that, either that or she will wise up and discard him. Make it your mission to get up every morning and focus your energys on your no. one goal. Gettin out of there, so you don’t have to have his baby shit wiped in your face. It’s not you!!! He’s scum! Come here as often as you want. We will support you. You can do this. My mother always said, “tomorrow’s another day”. Don’t waste it. I’m on Your side.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 6:04pm
kindheart48 says:
rosa, i just read your post and i agree with you on most of your points and the rumours well they are more fact than rumours as one source is a lady whom this det interviewed approx. 3 years ago who was molested years ago and also assaulted(she was a nun for 6 years) and because of her situation , he felt comfortable enough to confide in her what he was going through, hence the same story i got , he’s been in it for a long period and from my own experience , the longer i was going and breaking the no contact with the socio, over 6 years now, the stronger the denial got so i can see why he is so disturbed . True i haven’t heard the wifes side but i know her to see her and she is unfriendly to say the least and i know that doesn’t make her a bad person but i do beleive she is abusive and then some. It isn’t my problem to fix either and i’ve been in her shoes too so this is all to familiar to me as i was emotionally abusive in my marriage but i have taken responsiblity for it and i never was unfaithful to my husband. Before i knew the situation i looked at him and all he has going for him and thought he had his chit together etc. but after hearing him and you had to be there, he is obviously broken and i have been there myself a time or two over the last 7 years so its hard not to be compassionat and im sure his wife has her side but the facts are , he has to see it for what it is. He was seriously wondering what he was doing wrong and i felt like hitting him on the head to be honest but i know it wouldn’t help. I think we go around thinking we are doing things wrong with these types when the answer to why she is treating him that way is so simple we can’t seem to accept it. She treats him that way simply because she can. If i were a p or some personality disorder this guy would be perfect prey and i see that so clearly now, something i would never have been able to identify without my own experience. It’s not my place to tell him about the infedelity either and at this point i think it may seriously throw him over the edge an d end up doing something drastic. Thanks for all the advice and i will try and take it . love kindheart
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 7:22pm
Stargazer says:
Alicia,
I could feel your pain so much reading your post. I want to tell you that it feels like you can’t handle it, but you can. The only way to deal with grief is to accept it and to feel it completely. At the same time, you can ask a higher power (whatever your idea of that is) for help.
When I was in the worst of my depression, shortly after I went NC, I went camping to try and forget about it. But I couldn’t sleep; I couldn’t read; I couldn’t think of anything else. I tried to get the suicidal thoughts out of my head, but the pain had just taken over completely. Finally I decided that I would just accept the fact that I was in pain and suicidal. I decided to just let it be like that for a while. It was better than trying to avoid it or wish it away. The next thing was I found some unlikely spiritual guidance and asked this guide very sincerely to help with the pain. I called on this guide every night for months as I lay down to sleep. And every night for months I cried out a little more of it, until one day it was gone. Even if you aren’t spiritual, you can imagine giving all your pain to someone else–a friend maybe, even an imaginary one.
I do hope you can move away and at least not have any kind of contact with him, because it will help immensely.
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 8:07pm
Stargazer says:
Kindheart, HOW ARE YOU?????
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 8:08pm
kindheart48 says:
Star, im fine just thinking about the socio and his new woman, guess she’s got him on his toes as she does her own thing and heard it drives him crazy, i knnow i shouldn’t be thinking about him but it’s hard not to wonder but i know the game, if i had acted that way he would have been at my doorstep too. As for the detective i tried to find the book “Why is it always about you” for him but would have to order it as nobody is carrying it in town. Then i think i need to bow out of this ordeal as im not about to be the one to tell him that his wife is sleeping around and he would need proof but karma will prevail and she will eventually get caught or leave him. I was shocked to say the least to see how crumbled he was and he has so much going for him. I told him how one person , we give the power to and that they become the one and only person to give us our self worth. I could identify 110% with him and the questioning himself and even with the wife as i could be a shrew myself when i was married and my biggest regret is losing my marriage as he was a guy just like this detective, tried to make me happy and i was insatiable. I’d like to think i’ve learned something from all of this. He’s left town for a course on sexual abuse and i hope he gets the time alone that he wanted to get some perspective but he’s far from the no contact phase that im working on. love kindheart
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:01pm
kindheart48 says:
Skylar, i love the baby in a diaper. I remember talking to the socio’s last young wife and her telling (she was 30 years younger) that she felt like she had a 5 year old child and in actuality she had a young daugher. She felt like he needed to be spanked etc. i will try and picture the loser in a diaper with a baby bottle . Nobody and i mean nobody can figure out what i saw in the loser , pasty white skin, swastica ballpoint pen tatoos on arms, scrawny build with white hair and bad knee, three inch lifts build into boots to make him look taller but he walked hunched over and walked like a cripple. Someday im sure i’ll be mortified to say the least but for now i have to keep my distance but the diaper , yea he should be wearing one , that would complete the picture. He hangs on to his Mommy Dearest and looks as old as her as she has all the money, what a pair, her little Johnny who can do no wrong, well she has alzheimers and some day she will forget who he is, not that he prob cares. I shouldn’t be so spiteful but i know that prob won’t bother him as then he can fleece her all the more. kindheart
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Wednesday, 30 September 2009 @ 10:11pm
Iwonder says:
Hi Alecia,
I know how you feel. And yes, they usually find a new replacement before they are through with you. It’s like having a back up savings account. When you’re spent up, there’s another supply. I’ve seen it over and over again. My ex did the same to me…he’s now living off the woman he cheated on me with. That is, until she has no money or nothing else he can get his hands on. I’ve posted my ex on Don’tdatehim.com.
My ex also lives right in town. After the hurt went away, I ran into them in the supermarket. You should have seen their eyes buldge out of their heads. They were frozen like dear in headlights. I was not ashamed or embarassed at all! I was able to look them straight in the eyes and just go on shopping. I felt empowered. Someday you will get there too but right now, I agree with Star….try to move so you wounds can heal.