We Can Only Do What We Can Do
By Ox Drover
I was thinking about a blog post and reply that had gone on between another poster and myself on Lovefraud about trying to “help” others see the “light” and get away from their own personal psychopath.
I mulled over what I had done in my life in trying to “fix” others by coming up with a solution that they could take to ease their pain from their prior bad choices. I would wrack my brain up and down, left and right, to try to come up with a “plan” that would help these people “fix” whatever mess they got into of their own free will.
Some people would call this “co-dependent” and others would call this “enabling.” Whatever term you want to apply to it, I called it “helping,” but the bottom line is that this behavior on my part was not “helping” these people, it was me trying to take responsibility for the consequences of their bad choices or bad behavior.
Many times these people would say “That’s a good idea, but …” and would not take my very best suggestion that I was sure would work. So, as a consequence, I would get frustrated at them or angry with them for being so stubborn or stupid! (How arrogant of me!)
Other times, they would take part of my wonderful solution and it would not work because they didn’t use all of it, and then they would get mad at me for giving them such bad advice. It was all my fault because it didn’t work and they were still hurting.
The point is, that they got into the fix in the first place, and it is not my responsibility to get them out. I am not “helping” them by trying to take over running their life. I can, if they are willing, support them by saying “Boy, you must be feeling bad/sad/mad about that situation.” That is validating their feelings and is a true statement and is supportive.
Suggestions on Lovefraud
Even here on Lovefraud when we give “advice” about what we would do or what idea we think would work, it should be on our part, a suggestion if asked, or noted as our opinion. We all must make our own choices, our own decisions, and live with the consequences. Lovefraud is a supportive place, and the people here are very validating because they too have lived through the chaos with a psychopath in one way or another.
Sometimes we have bloggers come here for advice and we freely give it, and those bloggers do not take our advice, they make excuses for their dysfunctional relationship with a presumably dysfunctional or psychopathic person and stay with or go back to that person, or in some cases, go into another dysfunctional relationship. Of course we are disappointed that that was their choice, but it was their choice. We have not failed when they do not take our advice. It is not our fault that they did not get away from the danger.
We can still feel empathy for these people, but we should not feel that we are failures because our compassion and/or advice was ignored. We can only do what we can do.
Can’t save the unwilling
Back “before enlightenment” I used to feel really badly if my advice was refused or didn’t work, but I think I have turned a corner in my compassionate nature and in my desire to assist or help someone in their recovery from entanglement in dysfunctional relationships. I no longer feel that it is my responsibility to “save” someone if they are not willing to give it all they have got as well.
To use an analogy of swimming, my late husband was a very experienced swimmer and a lifeguard certification instructor. He had a situation once where he had a victim trapped inside a turned over helicopter in the water. Every time he would swim down to try to rescue the man, the man was hysterical and kept trying to pull him under with him. My husband quickly saw the situation and went back to the surface until there were no more bubbles coming out from the water. Then he went back to get the unconscious man and brought him to the surface. If my husband had tried to rescue the man while he was still consciously fighting him, they would have both died. By waiting until it was safe to do so, my husband saved them both.
When we are trying to “save” someone who is floundering in the flood waters of a miserable and dysfunctional relationship and they are asking for help, yet fighting that help at the same time, sometimes we can only wait until they are no longer fighting the help we offer them. We must firmly set a boundary that “I will not allow your problems to drag me under as well.”
My late husband wanted to rescue that man, but he was not willing to let the man pull him under as well, and he set a boundary. “Until you stop fighting me, I am not going to come back.” What would my husband have felt if after he did pull up the man and the man could not be revived and he was dead? I don’t know, of course, for sure, but my bet, knowing my husband, is that he would not have spent the rest of his life grieving for not having rescued that man in time. He would have said, I think, “I did the best I could, but I couldn’t let him pull me under and drown me as well.”
I have tried unsuccessfully to rescue my psychopathic offspring and my enabling maternal DNA donor, and for years let them pull me under the “water” until I nearly drowned in the process. Every time I would “fail” to rescue them because they fought me tooth and nail, I felt guilty, I felt inadequate, I felt that I had failed, and threw myself right back into the water of despair. Now, I realize I can’t rescue them against their wills, and I am no longer willing to risk my own life to try to do so. I can’t help them, and they won’t allow me to rescue them. I no longer feel disappointed, sad, grief-stricken or inadequate because of that. They have the choice to swim if they want to, and I have the choice not to risk my life in a futile attempt to save them from themselves. The best part of it all now is, though, that I no longer castigate myself for “failing” to rescue them. I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
sabrina says:
Thanks Oxy- this writing from you just hit the spot! Like a sermon to my ears.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 10:15am
Inquirente says:
“I no longer feel guilty or inadequate for their choices. I can let them be responsible for themselves and I am responsible for myself. That is freedom; that is peace. We can only do what we can do”
That says it all, thanks for the post. Very timely, now trying to provide empathy, when others who you were trying to help, seem to think your only in it for yourself…now that is difficult.
Staying away from it shuld be our answer now. If and until they ever want us in their lives again.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 10:33am
blueskies says:
I was taught in life saving in the sea or water, to never to approach a hysterical victim head first, I was actually taught to keep a distance and use a prop if available, and if none were to kick to knock out a hysterical drowning victim in order to save them… but that was the 80’s… I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:15am
blueskies says:
Not sure if i could have actually done that… maybe if our survival depended upon it…
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:17am
ANewLily says:
Blueskies, I was taught the same thing (in the 50’s) to approach a hysterical victim from the back, never ever from the front. (I had lifeguard certification.) But, that was in open water, not sure if it would apply for a trapped victim in a helicopter underwater. Oxy’s husband probably did the only right thing.
I have a different opinion to Oxy’s about giving “help” to a DV victim. Most victims are not looking for help, but for validation. And not all DV victims had made bad choices. When someone (not just Oxy) came up with “plans” to help me, I felt as controlled as I had with my Ex. Besides, most of the plans others came up with were plans I had already tried and had already failed in the attempt. I always felt the other trying to “help” me thought I was pretty stupid. I also always felt that the one trying to help me with “plans” felt with others, “that I had made my own bed by my own bad choices, so live with it.”
The good thing I learned in instances like this was when I perceived the discomfort of others for my not “listening” to them, I fell into my own bad pattern (by nature) of “saving their feelings.” That was not my job! Trying to save my own EX’s feelings (I thought he had some! LOL) was one of my biggest faults.
Thanks for this article, Oxy!!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:47am
justabouthealed says:
I’ll admit I still have big problems with always offering help. I can remember even in school, if I saw a kid not getting what the teacher was saying, I’d hop up to go help them, even though I knew I would get in trouble. It is bred in my bones. There is a fine line or often no line between “helping” and “controlling” except the motive behind it. Which to me is a huge difference. But I know alanon and others say not to give advice (I think I have that right). It is hard, because my job is about policing others!
I’m trying to change, and your feedback helps ANewLily, but man, this is a tough one for me!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 12:08pm
justabouthealed says:
ANEWLily, I have that same pattern of “saving their feelings”. It isn’t all bad. Graciousness is a wonderful diplomatic skill. Our GOOD traits get us in problems when used around bad guys, or when we hurt ourselves to save others. I’ve been guilty of doing both. (being gracious to bad guys and hurting myself in the process of of graciousness.) I even first practically apologized to a man attacking me, bursting in on me when I was in the shower, like “oh you poor dear, how embarrassing for YOU”! GOD!~!!! Then I woke up from the quick FOG I was in and starting attacking him physically!
But that graciousness thing is so automatic in me. Allowed me to do good undercover work, even my partner would say “You had ME believing you liked him!” But part of me just automatically DOES look for the good for someone even when I know they have done unspeakable things.
So I have it BAD! At least I recognize it and have gotten out of undercover work too.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 12:19pm
ANewLily says:
JAH, Your statement, “Our GOOD traits get us in problems when used around bad guys.” was the basic thing I got out of Leedom and Brown’s, “Why Women Love Psychopaths” (Golly, is that the correct title?) What a solace that was to learn.
Then, there is still the fine line as you mentioned between helping and controlling. The trick as I see it is how to correctly perceive the motive behind “help.”
I truly believe that the motive behind Oxy’s and others who have tried to devise plans for me is genuine altruism. In those cases, is “trying to save their feelings” a dishonest reaction? I just don’t know.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 12:53pm
justabouthealed says:
Well alanon says “Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don’t say it meanly.”
Especially hard in email! Usually if I give someone advice when they just wanted validation, I can tell from the look on their face, and then I give them a hug, and say “I’m sorry, you just needed to be heard didn’t you? I DO hear you and you’ll sort this out on your own.”
But everyone on LF can’t see your face to know sometimes you (and others) just need to be heard! I guess just coming right and saying, thanks, but I just need validation right now, not advice, might work.
Of course then, I feel like I’m starting to control them!!! It is all very confusing!! LOL!
All I know is that the intent behind LF IS support! And NEVER blaming the victim.
And that people like me, full of empathy, have a very HARD time not giving advice. I did it here in this post.
ARGHHHHH!!!!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 1:59pm
justabouthealed says:
PS Forgot the main thing I was going to say! I think it is WONDERFUL that you have heard “help” as control. That means your radar is UP for being controlled and anyone is going to have a very hard time controlling you in the future. I think that is something to really celebrate!!!
When I was reading Betrayal Bond, it spoke about learning to set boundaries. And he said that it doesn’t matter if some of the boundaries we set at first are too strict, or too high. He says it matters not at all. What matter is that we are setting boundaries. That helped me get rid of the narcissiopath in my life. I set a boundary and didn’t worry if it was unreasonable or what. I just set it. He crossed it and boom! I never have spoken to him again and sent him a threatening email to never cross my path again. But I needed that permission from an expert to start setting boundaries.
Sounds like you have a great boundary set about being controlled! Woo hoo!!!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 2:08pm
ANewLily says:
JAH, i don’t think you gave “advice” in this email, just a possible answer to my question of my last post about dishonest responses.
I have little experience with alcoholism and Alanon, so I do appreciate Alanon’s “sayings” as I do hear about them from others like you. I hadn’t heard the one you mentioned above yet. Thanks. I appreciate it. And it fits into my value system, too!
I also really appreciated your reminder about communication by email being difficult without facial expressions and body language. It is also difficult by telephone.
This whole problem of when to give advice and when not to is the crux of my going NC with my two older sisters a year ago. (My only commuication with them has been by phone.) I have no doubts whatsoever of their love for me and their 3 nieces and nephew but I think the discomfort of their concern caused them to stick their noses into a situation about which they knew nothing, couldn’t know! It was my fault that I just couldn’t listen to them anymore!
I heard that the oldest sister is now doing research on personality disorders so I have hope that she will begin to understand that all I needed from her was to listen — and give feedback to me what I am saying so I could “hear” it from a healthy perspective.
Well, that was needed most in the past. I have done a lot of healing in the past year. I guess what I didn’t need from my sisters was “advice” or “plans” that didn’t even apply — and wouldn’t listen to me when I tried to tell them that!!
I guess I still didn’t know about, “say what you mean, mean what you say but don’t say it MEANLY.” I think I was so afraid of hurting their feelings that I didn’t know HOW to say what I meant without sounding mean.
LF is a great site for new understandings!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 2:31pm
libelle says:
Dear Oxy. Thank you for the VERY true post! It is one of the very difficult lessons in the “School of hard knox” as you put it, and to learn it I had to go through a very deep burn out years ago (before it became fashionable!). It was when I was really overworked and when I quit they had to hire three people. I learned that I COULD JUST DO SO MUCH, and had to find supervision, took courses in psychooncolgy and find ways to recharge my own batteries. I have to look for myself well first before I can care for others well! (one senior resident said this to me when I was in my first year, and I thought how awful, but he was so right, as you are)
The fine line between control and advice is very difficult. My sister has a plate on her lawyer’s desk: “Be reasonable, do it MY way”!
When I was in Medical school I read a book on the “Helper’s syndrome” or “The helpless helper”, where weak people seek out even weaker ones to “care” for them but in fact it is to feel “better” and “superior” and “in command”. It was awful and I wanted quit, but then found the solution of “assisting” the patients in difficult situations and thus not making them dependant upon me. I learned that I have to accompany the people on THEIR journey, and to accept when they chose NOT to be accompanied by me, and that they are free in every aspect to choose from all the possibilities life has to offer and my advice is just a little contribution to the abundance of life. It works quite well in my professional life, but it is difficult in private (especially with my sister and how she is educating my niece, or NOT educating her; she then always sais you don’t have children!)
But with trusted people as here at LF it is so wonderful to get answers, validation, a different view from the most astonishing group of caring, careful, wonderful people. It is not advice “Be reasonable, do it MY way”, but enhancing the creativity of thinking by walking around the problem, by looking at it from a different angle, and sometimes it is necessary to have me take off the rose colored glasses. I feel here very safe, validated and able to see the problems through different eyes and mirrors and can take the bits and pieces I need to “get the picture”. Thank you all so much! Peace, and sleep well! (((((HUGS))))))
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 2:55pm
ANewLily says:
JAH wrote” “Sounds like you have a great boundary set about being controlled! Woo hoo!!! ”
WOW, that is true. Something to celebrate for sure.
PS I’m still working on what a boundary is and what it is not.
But, yes, I will protect myself from being controlled by anyone, if I perceive it as control, for sure!
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 2:56pm
OxDrover says:
Dear JAH,
When I started to set boundaries I was SO UNSURE of them being “reasonable” and ;I was TOTALLY FREAKED OUT ABOUT setting “Unreaonable ones.” For some reason I can’t allow myself to EVER BE UN-”reasonable.” DUH!
So at first, I would tell my son D (tearfully and with great anxiety and self doubt) “Is this a reasonable boundary” (cause, buddy-o I knew it was gonna PISS’EM OFF!) He would listen and VALIDATE that my boundary was REASONABLE. then with more confidence I would go set the boundary as “nicely, but firmly” as I could. Eventually, I got to the point that I was NO LONGER FEELING THE NEED for PRE-validation before I would set a boundary, I could validate it ME OWN SELF.
I think back to those days like “training wheels on a bike” and as my success grew, my CONFIDENCE grew to where I can now set boundaries with much less ANXIETY and more self confidence that I have the RIGHT to do so. What is so funny now, is that “time” in terms of months etc. is only a little over a year ago!!!!!
I also understand LILY’s GREAT point about when folks gave her advice SHE felt that they were trying to CONTROL her. I usually didn’t feel that way, when I was GIVEN advice, but at the same time, I didn’t MEAN to be “controlling” when I GAVE advice, but I guess I WAS, or I wouldn’t have felt irritation or anger when it wasn’t taken.
While I WAS controlled by others, I actually FELT that I was in control, or at least denied their control and was delusional that I HAD ANY CONTROL at all. LOL How is that for a bunch of “triple negatives” Miz Lily (English teacher! LOL)?
What a terrible mis-mash of feelings, none of them based on reality!!!
I’m not so sure that “enabling” isn’t a bred-in-the-bones genetic trait just like psychopathic-aggression and control is bred in the bones to a great extent, but in any case, by the time we are adults and have practiceed this enabling for decades, it is DIFFICULT to “reform” ourselves and our knee-jerk tendencies to do so. Just like an alky may have to fight the desire daily to drink, I have to fight the ENABLING desire daily, and monitor myself.
I almost feel like I am living in a different “culture” with a “different language” than the one I was born in, and I feel like I may never fully acclimate into the new second language totally where it becomes “automatic” or I don’t have to think about it it my native language and then TRANSLATE it before I act. I know that there are people who have “language” skills that they can learn a second language and “easily think” in that language, but i think I will always “think” in “Enabling lauguage” and have to TRANSLATE into non-enabling ACTION.
Back to the underwater life saving thing in the over turned helicopter, my husband said that there was no way to get to the man (who had actually CAUSED the crash in the small helicopter by refusing to stay off the skid, sit down and buckle his seat belt) without putting himself at risk. To prove that “no good deed goes unpunished” the man later filed charges against my husband (the pilot) with the FAA. Fortunately, my husband was exonerated, and the man was fired by the company they both worked for. From the description of this man’s behavior and attitudes both before and after the crash, I think he must have been a high level N.
Definining what is MY RESPONSIBILITY and what is NOT, I think is my biggest trouble. Because, unfortunately, what is someone else’s responsibility will ADVERSELY EFFECT ME if they do not fulfill it. (Like the wife who “enables” her drunk husband not to lose his job by calling his boss and saying eh was “sick” when in reality he was drunk.) It is HIS responsibilty to go to work and not lay out drunk, but if he DOES lay out drink, she is “punished” by the family finances being adversely effected. So, she assumes it is HER responsibility to prevent this calamity to the family by “fixing” the situation and calling the boss and telling him a lie.
The CONSEQUENCES of irresponsible (or bad) behavior are NOT limited to the person who is IRRESPONSIBLE or badly behaved. So, I for one, tried to (as I had been trained) “fix” the situation. Of course this was FUTILE and the consequences in the end were WORSE. I’m learning, I’m doing the best I can to “reform” but some days it isn’t easy.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 3:03pm
justabouthealed says:
Very well put Oxy.
Sorry to abruptly change the subject but WOW! I had given up on my family. But this morning, I wrote an email to my sister, stating why I was not in contact with my brother and here was her reply “I have gained more insight into our family with your email than I have gained over the past 67 years put together! You have certainly looked at these issues with greater depth than I ever dared to. …Sometime I will have to sit down with you and have a long talk….maybe you have answers to many of the questions I was always afraid to ask!”
I had told her in my email that I have great compassion for her, because I had witnessed what my mom did to her when she was a teen, and also told her the truth about my narcissiopath brother. That he can never feel love, that he is exploitive, etc and I thought she would blow that off.
I TOTALLY expected her to not respond and to write me off. I was telling her our Mom was NOT a normal person. Instead, it seems that me being the only witness to what she went through and validating that for her, really opened her eyes to what she has not wanted to see. I’m speechless.
I also feel compassion for her, because I know that horrible feeling when you first come out of the FOG. I know all that she will start gradually realizing and how painful it is going to be. I’m not completely through it myself. I do know that from this point forward, I will answer any questions she asks, but am not going to point out anymore stuff to her about her PRESENT reality. It will be best that she uncover that at a pace her mind can accept.
I don’t mean to sound like I’m light years ahead of her. I’m not, but until today, I don’t think she realized anything, that she was in a complete FOG about the family and blaming herself.
Well, it has shown me that when you speak your truth with humility and honesty, SOMETIMES the listener really does hear, really does take it in.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 4:18pm
justabouthealed says:
PS I wasn’t giving any advice to her, just explaining why I was done with my brother. No anger toward him expressed, just a sadness about who and what he is, and an understanding of where it came from.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 4:20pm
slimone says:
Oxy,
Thanks for this reminder. My issue LOUD and CLEAR. And one that is certainly in my bones from way back.
JAH–congratulations on having a breakthrough with your sister. I know it must feel really good to help, just the right amount, and see a tiny light go on for her. It’s all in the balance, huh?
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 4:53pm
Tilly says:
Great article! Right on cue as always…just when i needed it!
Blueskies:
“I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way”….this is SPOT ON! That is the only way I would have been saved in every single P instance. And we DO get “knocked out”, but usually by the P when we leave anyway, so it might as well be by someone else, only a little earlier!
I would have done what Oxy’s husband did, unless it had been my child. Then i would have panic-ed too and killed us both for sure.
“The truth will pith you off before it sets you free”
That is what they always teach you in first aid: Who is the most important person at a scene of carnage and destruction where you are supposed to “”save” someone ? YOU ARE, because unless you are in one piece you are useless to anyone else.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 6:12pm
Tilly says:
Please don’t forget my Aussie irony, when i say, “if the child had been my P daughter it would have saved the world a bunch of trouble”.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 6:14pm
ANewLily says:
Jah, I’m thrilled about the communication with your sister, also. Her reply was surely filled with gratitude that some unanswered questions of hers (that she was afraid to ask) finally came together for her. I’m thrilled for her, too.
It will be interesting (and exciting) how she uncovers the rest at her own pace — with you lovingly “holding her hand.” (That’s helping in a good way, I think.)
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 6:40pm
OxDrover says:
JAH,
Sometimes other VICTIMS CAN BE reached, with compassion and care and ON THEIR OWN TIME….it takes time to catch it and get it, and sometimes when you are in denial you don’t listen to the advice or warning. I know there were times I WAS WARNED and DID NOT LISTEN. So I feel sure that since I have done that myself, it is also probably something others have done as well…and people here have mentioned that they have tried to warn others who did not listen (Biddy is an example of people who were warned and chose not to listen/believe it) and other times other people have also mentioend that they were warned and didn’t listen. So I think this is probably PRETTY COMMON.
But, as others here have “testified” they didn’t listen either, to warnings, or they went back time after time but eventually, the time WAS THEIR TIME and they listend and acted.
HOWEVER, with the heavy duty Ns and Ps, there is NO way it will EVER be their time. With some heavy duty ENABLERS, it will never be their time. with VICTIMS, sometimes their time does come. I think we should always be OPEN to those victims that FINALLY get it and not give up hope for them, but UNTIL IT IS THEIR TIME, we can’t keep “hammering” on them, giving them advice that at THAT TIME they do not want to hear.
Lily, my dear friend, I hope that your children (or at least some of them) will come to the TIME when they can see the truth, and are not Ns or Ps (like their father) but simply other victims who will IN TIME GET IT. That is my prayer for you and them, and I am sure is also your prayer. But while we WAIT, we must ACCEPT WHAT IS TODAY’s REALITY for our OWN sakes. It’s not easy, my dear.
I will bet at some point it was painful to accept the reality that your husband was a MONSTER WHO WOULD NEVER CHANGE. It must also be painful to thing that your child/ren could be like him as well, or be dupes or victims as well, and not to know WHICH it is. whether to hold on to hope or give up. Not knowing is a b1atch in itself. ((((hang on though)))) You know you are not alone!!!! (((Hugs and God bless)
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 7:41pm
ANewLily says:
Oxy, with the sincerest hope I am not misunderstood, I just lovingly remind you that each of us has our own filters, just as you do.
I appreciate your prayers for my children — but neither I nor they (at least 3 of them) are not in denial.
All of us are trying to deal with our REALITY as best we can.
I have heard your “warnings” but some of them just don’t apply, ok?
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 8:14pm
ANewLily says:
Oops — double negative.
It shoudl be: At least 3 of my children are NOT in denial, and neither am I.
I’ve mentioned before that I just haven’t given you enough information to make better assumptions about our situation — that does change periodically as the weeks and months go by.
Some things just can’t be put into a public forum or in an email, either — like the details of yesterday afternoon.
I know you have a good heart and that your motives are well-intended. I do! I KNOW that.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 8:20pm
banana says:
Oxy,
Would is be vain of me to assume you were referencing our conversation? : )
I was just sharing with my mom, and I told her that when she threatened to never speak to me again, my inclination was to think ‘I can’t go back to im because I don’t want my mom to hate me.’
This is not what we want victims to do though.
The correct thought here is. ‘I do not want to go back to him because he is toxic.’
I am in a position of strength, thank God, because of NC, and time.
I have no love for my P other than that what I have for human-kind.
I just resent that I have actually started feeling sorry for him.
There is no Part of me that wants that R back. I know this. I am not lying.
BUT they are great at the pity ploy, and at times he has me thinking ‘maybe is does have feelings’.
Then I get upset, sad, frustrated that I have lost sight of my new future. This is where the sadness comes from. I think.
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 10:46pm
geminigirl says:
Dear Oxy, Kathy, Erin, and all you great,supportive people om LF,Im in a lot of pain right now, I expected it, but its relentless, day and night, the guilt is the worst, the “second guessing” of myself”. since I sent THAT letter to my daughter 6 weeks ago, setting boundaries or else NC. I havent heard a peep out of her since, nor do I expect to. I assume she is thinking,”Mum will give in, she always has before, then I can suckerpunch her again.” This time, Im determined NOT to give in, but I feel like ratshit.Its a terrible thing to say but it maybe would be easier if shed died, then eventually Id be able to grieve, and get over it, but with a NS I have learned that they NEVER CHANGE, as its nevr their fault in their eyes.
As my other daughter is the same [or worse,} and I have 2 disfunctional emotionally screwed up Narc brothers, this is all the blood family I have left, except for a female cousin who has Munchhausens syndrome! LOL! what a mob! Thank god for david and my lovely “adopted” Iranian adult “kids”.
I guess Ill just have to ride this wave of pain, I cant avoid it, I was expecting it, and here it is! Love and peace, geminigirlXX
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Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:24pm
ANewLily says:
Oh, geminigirl, I’ve wanted several times to respond to you and let you know that I think I understand your pain of lack of normal and loving communication with your daughters.
I actually grieved for my 4 children for 5 years before I could accept the “reality” of the depth of the smear campaign and the parental alienation. I can’t explain it better than that.
And I really don’t know what to say to you except that I am “hearing” you and wish I could hug you tight and wipe away your tears.
During one of my worst days — about 5 years ago now, a new friend’s husband (in her presence) just hugged me with no words, just tightly hugged me as I cried. The wife hugged me, too, but not so prolonged as the husband. (I hope this doesn’t sound perverse, because it wasn’t)
It was so strengthening! Ever since, I have asked to hug others (when it is appropriate occasion) including most of my doctors and their nurses.
All through my children’s lives (before I escaped), we hugged every day and I missed it SO MUCH. Their spouses were huggers, too, and of course, all of the grandchildren!
I am a “natural” hugger, though, and if you are not, this may not be as therapeutic to you as it was to me.
But, those hugs and my daily reading of Scripture and sometimes all day listening to Christian TV or radio were the only things that comforted me. Actually, these activities still continue. My internist does not even know of my background but today I asked if I could hug her as I left and she giggled and said, “Of course.” She is younger than my youngest daughter, even.
I had intended to tell her about the FEAR episode of yesterday but I didn’t because God had already given His message to me about what to do.
I feel sure that God will comfort you, too, and give you the strength you need to endure. I hope it doesn’t take as long as it has for me, but I assure you that if I can survive, so can you.
I CARE!
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:21am
ANewLily says:
I meant to add that the daily hugs were what I missed most of all. And the daily “I love you.”
I am very fortunate that several of my grandchildren have called me quite regularly. One of the last times, my only great-grandson, now 17 months, said, “Eye uve ewe.” before his mother hung up.
Thrilled my heart — and eased the remaining ache.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:26am
ANewLily says:
A light little story that I hope makes you smile.
I had told my granddaughter that I can now walk after 4.5 months of healing from a broken hip — but that I walk like a penquin. She repeated that good news to her husband — and then started laughing.
Liltte great-grandson was walking like a penquin, saying “ey uve pennkees” over and over. (He watches cartoons!)
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:30am
geminigirl says:
Dearest newlily, thank you thank you, from the bottom of my heart! it helps so much to know that you and others on this site care, and have been thru the same mill of pain. I do love hugs, and as mu “adopted” Iranian adult “kids” are coming over for lunch tomorrow, I know Ill give and get plenty of hugs from them!God is so good, giving me anew adopted daughter to love and cherish. It doesnt mean I dont love my own two, but it sure helps! And they are so sweet, and so appreciative of us, and what we try to do for themLots and lots of {{{HUGs}}} dearest girl! Maia{geminigirl}Ps I love the Penguin story!!
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 2:13am
ThornBud says:
OXY dear, i was laughing reading ur post, because i have recognized myself and my motion to help, to give an advice.
It is easy to give an advice, what is hard is to accept it. Moreover, seeking an advice, ppl tend to filtrate them and accept what “suites” them (denial and FOG indeed).
Finally i understood that nomatter how similar stories are, every one is unique as well, and what works for me doesnt have to work with u. In addition, ppl are different, there are many different character types, and we all react according to them, unwillingly and out of conscience – it is our nature.
Still, there is one FACT – LF IS HELPING PLACE, because we all here understand, we relate a way or another, we have traveled the same journey. Some of us enjoy mountains, some of us enjoy rivers, some of us enjoy valley, but we are all on the same train, though not the same destination.
What makes this place special are PEOPLE, warm, understanding, compasionate. So even if i dont like ur advice or i dont accept it fully or partly. I KNOW U UNDERSTAND, i know ur emphaty , i know u care. We all need to tell our story without fear we will be taken as crazy, we feel held and loved, and thats why many ppl come back here, even after healing.
There are professional who can help, BUT IT IS DIFFERENT, nomatter how good they are in own job/proffesion, it is still a JOB and we are PAYING a service. HERE ITS DIFFERENT, if u like – more human (due to all respect to our psychologists). We do not work on each other, WE EMPHASYZE!
Thank u, dear OXY, and thank all of wonderful ppl on LF
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 4:43am
ThornBud says:
Just small comparation:
I suffered huge pain in stomack, visited one great GI, retired, and he told me i have to change regime, to keep diet. I asked him what can i eat, what should i eat, and his answer was:
EAT WHATEVER, ur body will tell u what. Avoid food what produces pain and take what doesnt. I can only tell u which food produces more/less acids, but response of ur body is the most important.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 4:50am
Stayingsane says:
Hi, I’m new to the site and have spent lots of time reading all the blogs. I am out the other end of a “relationship” with a ps and drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed…so peppered with I love you…these mixed messages resemble the ones I grew up with…you know saying the words but the body language would say something else? this nearly drove me crazy…I think you have to cultivate a highly sophisticated way of reading mixed messages to get to the truth if it does not drive you crazy first.
So what I am left with is a sense of bewilderment. shock. I’m on shifting sand and cant settle anywhere yet..I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe…so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way…
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 7:39am
TNewman says:
Hello Oxy and Everyone,
I’m sure that most of you are aware of my ongoing “mission” to help Biddy understand that my ex, now her husband, is a full blown sociopath. Every time something goes wrong, I hear from her. Yet, when I remind her that she is dealing with a sociopath and go to endless lengths to help her understand…she goes into defense mode. If anything, I fear that I may have pushed her CLOSER to him. She’s approaching me more now that I’ve remarried. She and my ex S got married exactly a week after I married my current husband. But, you know what? I finally decided that I’d use my S experience to attempt to help people who want it…like the good people here on LF. It’s sad…but I fear that when someone approaches us and asked us what makes a person behave in such a manner and we come back with “he’s/she’s a sociopath”…their minds automatically go to Bundy or Manson. It’s just too much for them to swallow. My husband and I are both fans of crime shows. I’d give anything if just ONCE they would do a program documenting the behavior of what I’ll call the “everyday” sociopath. Afterall, aren’t they the most common? I feel very badly for the victims of serial murders/rapes…but what about US…we’re victims, too, and most of us will be affected the remainder of our lives by what these people did to us…if nothing else…just by knowing that we once fell prey to them.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 8:42am
OxDrover says:
Several people asked questions or made comments, I will try to answer them all if I miss any, it is CRS! LOL
First___welcome STAYING SANE, glad you are here–you are at the RIGHT PLACE. Stay around and read and learn, Knowledge=power and power=peace. Again Welcome.
Banana: I have CRS (can’t remember “STUFF’) or some word tht starts with an S. LOL anyway, I wrote that article and sent to Donna several weeks ago, and I honestly can’t remember who I was blogging with that triggered me to think about the subject. but definitely COULD have been an article with you and especially considering the STAGE you are in right now, or were a week or so ago —a very normal stage I might add. I wanted someone to tell me what to odo sometimes, and that way I didn’ t have to make a decision and if per chance it went wrong–hey, I just “followed orders”—I think that was the excuse some of the Germans tried for war crimes tried to us. I “juist did what someone else told me to–wasn’t my fault I did X, Y or Z.”
In the end, whether we like it or not, Banana, if we get the consequences of an action of ours, we are responsible. One way or another. And that is NOT blaming the victim, she/he is not to “blame” for someone beating them up, but if they hav eseen violent behavior prior and they go back, on their own or anyone else’s suggestion, they are RESPONSIBLE for the consequences.
Tossing ideas back and forth between two people is NOT a bad idea on just about ANY project, but the person who has to do the action (or take no action) on THEIR problem is the one RESPONSIBLE for the outcome, because they made the FINAL decision. The person making suggestions or bouncing ideas around may have actually been “right” but that person has NO “right” to be angry at the person whose RESPONSIBILY the stuation was failed. Or guilt either.
In the TNewman & Biddy situation, Biddy SEEMS TO keep coming to Tami “asking advice and seeking counsel”—but in realiity she she is DOING NEITHER. She is looking for validation of the decisions she is making, she is looking for excuses to stay with him, and somehow looking to get rid of her FEAR of making a decision. She is going to stay with him until she decides to leaver. PERIOD. We all “stayed til we decided to leave.” Ultimately we ALL make our own decisions for our own actions. WE ARE ADULTS.
A child has a “protector” called a parent to give them (hopefully) advice and even ORDERS along with consequences to guide and protect them. the child has and needs this wiser and older “protector-parent” to KEEP THEM SAFE AS THEY ARE NOT CAPABALE of making wise or sensible decisions. If the parent tells the chld to do something and it turns out badly, the RESPONSIBILIT falls back on to the parent for advising the child wrongly or in error. The CHILD themselves is ABSOLVED OF RESPONSIBILITY for the DECISION and ultimately for the outcome.
However, we cannot go back into childhood and in a healthy way let others take responsibility for our actions. Nor shouold be TAKE responsibility for another adults actions..
I think I understand why Banana’s mother might (out of frustration) be trying to say “leave him or else.” In reality though, she does not have that right to order her daughter around, her daughter is an adult. To me that comes across as an angry “threat” to withdraw love.
I don’t, however, see anything wrong with Banana’s mom saying something like, “Banana, darling. Your dad and I love you and Lilttle Banana very much, but we firmly believe that “Maggot” is not treating you and Banana well. You are aware of our feelings about this, in the mean time, your dad and I prefer not to discuss this and keep tensions high. You are always welcome in our home, but because of our feelings about Maggot, we would rather have you and Little Banana visit us without him, or we could meet you and little Banana some where else, but we prefer not to associate with maggot while he is behaving in this way.”
I am sure there are thousands of ways to say my above intended”conversation” differently and many many that might be better, but to me, that shows Banana that her parents love her, are concerned about her, and DISapprove of maggot’s BEHAVIOR, and hold out some little hope to Banana that he might change, but NOT too much!
Tami Newman, I agree sometimes that “sociopath” or “psychopath” turns people off—sometimes we have to start with the definition, I think, and work backackwards to the WORD rather than the other way round. I’ve seen some great books on “Emotional Vampires” that never mentioned the word (I think it should have at some point) but TOTALLY described S/Ps and cluster Bs in general (TOXIC).
Lily, my dear, you have borne so much for so long, I think you are capable of anything!!!! Your heart is so good and you trust in God, what better defenses could anyone have!
Geminigirl, I have felt for so long that my adopted son D is a gift from God to replace the son I lost, I am glad that you have these loving, warm caring “adoptees” as well….”family” is NOT only about blood, but about LOVE. (((hugs))) and my prayers for us all.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 11:10am
Jen2008 says:
StayingSane said: “drifting in and out of denial as I seem to be trying to rest on something that I can “live with” in my head as a reason why someone I loved would control, manipulate, lie, cheat, rob yet all the while pretend he was loving, affectionate, hard working committed………….I am worried that you actually get what you want to believe…so if I believe this man is a lost cause, remorseless unchangeable human being then I have become like him in some way”
Welcome to LoveFraud, Staying Sane. Sounds like you are drifting in and out of the FOG (fear, obligation, guilt), but since you are “questionning”, IMO you are definitely making progress. Unfortunately, some people really are a lost cause and are remorseless, but coming to realize that about someone you cared for does not make you “like” them in some way. It simply means you have begun to recognize the signs, the contradictions in behavior and words that don’t compute and match how they attempt to present their personality most of the time.
The articles are great to get a base understanding of how a sociopath operates etc. So, read the articles and keep posting. And again, welcome. –Jenn
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 11:27am
Jen2008 says:
BlueSkies said: “I wish someone had knocked me out and saved me, I think it might have been the only way. ”
Me, too, BlueSkies, me too. I think knocking me out or maybe if they had hog tied me and locked me up for a few months that may have done it. But I suppose in real life that is not an option, except maybe down in Florida (?) where you can Baker Act someone, although I am not sure what the requirements are for that.
I also have the “problem” of wanting to offer advice or opinons and part of it I think is that I sooooooo want the person to get out and stay out and avoid the type of harm I went through. It is so much easier to see the problem” when you are not the one directly involved in it and you (or I) just want to scream RUN RUN RUN or whatever advice I think they need to hear (even if it is not gentle).
I also have to keep reminding myself that even though a person may need to vent and may even ask advice, that they often are not going to take it (just like I vented and talked about what I should do or was gonna do, but often did not follow thru). I repeated this cycle so many times with two friends (one by phone and one via email, and neither of which even lived in the same state with me) that it was not funny. I will be forever grateful and also amazed at their patience with me and although they would advise me or encourage me or yell(thru email at me and one of them did not mince ANY words or opinons and frankly her bluntness was what I needed), neither one of them ever once threw in the towel and threw up their hands in disgust and deserted me when I failed to follow thru or maintain no contact. If they had, I am not sure I would even be here today as I was just that far gone into the depths of despair.
I agree with Oxy you can’t drown yourself while trying to help someone else as then you are no good to them either. But I think if it is someone you really care about, you can regroup and recharge and still be there for them, even if only on the outskirts by just letting them know “if” they are ever ready, you are there for them.
So, anyway, if I find myself growing frustrated with a person who is staying stuck (and I personally do not think being supportive entails just being kind and gentle and always telling a person what they “want” to hear, or otherwise you are a meanie. I believe tough love sometimes helps and one of my friend’s tough love approach in not mincing words about exactly what she thought about the ex psychopath and exactly what she thought I should do about it really helped me, even if I did not do what she said), —anyway, when I get frustrated with a victim, I find it is ME that needs to regroup and get myself in check because I need to go back and try to remember what it was like for me when I was in that stage, so I need to understand it has nothing to do with them deliberately dissing or miscountring any advice (nothing personal in other words, just they are still too far in the fog). I also have to remind myself to be patient even if they ask the same advice over and over again and don’t take it, or just make mild attempts at taking it. (I also did this and would slip back in the FOG).
I have a person who is very close to me (known them all their lives) who is in a situation right now that I would have never dreamed they would be in. I am trying to be there for them, and although they have already been thru one rather serious mishap (with what I think is a sociopath), and I gave my two cents worth because they brought the issue up with me and they seemed to “get it”, then ended up going right back—-I had to give myself a reality check and a good talking to as I see alot of the same behaviors going on that went on with me. So, bottom line is I have to hold on loosely and now try to be careful of any advice and just make it clear I am here for them and they always have a place to come and stay etc. if needed. Ok, this has gotten so long and I have gotten so far off track that I guess I will shut up because I forgot what my original point was that I wanted to make!!!! lol
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 4:38pm
tmassar1 says:
Hi ladies, I have not posted in over a year, but thought to check in tonight, something triggered my memory of this wonderful website.
My theory about ‘we can only do what we can do’ is right in line with OxDrover, but know that when people come here, (I’m a great example), they already sort of know what the problem is and what they should do. Someone said it earlier in this string – we are just looking for validation of what we already know. I came here and was stunned at what I found, and without a doubt it helped give me the strength to get out and move on after 13 years of an abusive marriage.
While I was certainly an enabler, I also stuck with him under the delusion that – ah – I could help!! I could rescue him, blah blah. But again: if you want to be rescued, you will be. If you’re ready for enlightenment, you’ll find it. And if you’re not, you will perpetuate the cycle of drama and pain, with or without your abuser.
The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.
So Jen2008 – you are quite right, you can be there for the person in need, but in the end, they have to be ready to let go of the pain. And that’s not something you can give them – you can nudge them in the right direction, but while you’re doing that, making sure you’re not inadvertently feeding the drama too.
One thing that should encourage anyone who comes here for solace and advice: the pain and hardship that you’ve had to endure is bringing you to that moment of peace faster than you can know. You will wake up one day and see it, even if it feels impossible now.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 8:15pm
shabbychic says:
tmassar1. Hello! I do remember your name, good to hear you are doing well. I never thought about how I am a victim of myself, a whole new perspective to think about! I don’t want to do anything to hurt myself anymore, I have to stay out of the fog, and I pray for the joy and peace you have found! God bless you.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 9:45pm
Tilly says:
tmassar1:
When they keep turning up in my life as often as they do it is hard to let go of it. it seems to keep happening, not just partners and family but teachers and “friends”. i am so sick of them turning up everywhere.
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Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 11:59pm
banana says:
I think the behaviors Biddy is having and some of mine at this stage even, are codependent.
I have been reading “Codependent No More”. I have to work through it as a work-book for best results, but it is very enlightening even as a read-through.
I have also been reading “Just like his father” and just started “Getting through my Thick Skull” so I have to get back to my codependent healing : )
It’s just this weakness that we had, we were targets. In some ways it was our fault that the P’S got their hooks into us.
It may not be our fault that we were weak or had low self-esteem, but we are in charge of our healing.
I have said, “he’s so convincing, I can’t help it.” NO NO NO. I am the ONE responsible for this, and yes OXY, we are stronger than we give ourselves credit for. and I believe the more we use it the stronger and more confident I get. Even like seeing the OW. I had PTSD like feelings about it, but when I saw he, and walked away I was amazed at how little it really impacted me ,and I gained strength from that experience.
Tonight I have to face STBXP’s parents, and am not feeling well about it, but I have strength from where I have been and have faith that I will be ok.
I thank God for removing me from this M early. I believe he has used this to expose my weaknesses and get me the healing I need even of past hurts from childhood.
BTW my therapist uses Theophostic Prayer and it’s amazing!!!!
Peace and Love to you all.
Banana
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 12:04pm
Stayingsane says:
I’m having nightmares for the last 3 nights about my ex. We were only together for a year and a half but he was very persistent, moved in very fast overwhelmed me with affection and I fell in love with the illusion of who he was….I bought a house in his country Latvia and he moved back to start his own business and commence work on the house. I sent over significant amounts of money in 3 payments expecting work to be done….he just bullshitted me and fobbed me off till I went over and it dawned on me, no work was really happening and no account of where the money gad gone….as I asked him to account for the money he got angry and insulted that I didnt trust him….I broke up with him and then went out to retrieve documents etc….I turned up on his door and made him on front of neighbours and his family pack up my belongings and put them in a car id hired to drive out to him. I got a solicitor and she says its missapropriation of funds and a fairly clear cut case….but it would be very costly and take time…I dont want to spend any more time on him, so I asked him to pay me back a small amount (A loan for a second hand car) and then I would leave him alone….but I just know he wont pay it and I will have to go after him…I cant stand him and want nothing more to do with him…my nightmares are about chasing him, trying to catch him and I’m in a sweat and panick..this guy could not give a damn and his weapon is ignoring me, telling people I am crazy, not normal. He flirts with me, calls me love to confuse me and then withdraws….the bait for me is being loved, he knows this and uses it…its an act. He has a predatory stare, he can lie without blinking, he has no feelings and does not repond to anything he deems beneath him.
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 4:59pm
justabouthealed says:
I am reading “Freeing Yourself from the NarcIssist in Your Life by Linda Martiznez-Lews, PhD. I’m loving it because it is about the “high level” narcissist (the guy I was involved with was a doc and a megamillionaire) and she does paint a picture of them as miserable behind their mask, and it rings true with things he said at times, about episodes of depression, of nothingness, of feeling empty.And his attempted suicide. I ALMOST feel sorry for him.
But I’m also loving it for her non-blaming of the victim. Here is a fair use quote from the book “Everyone wishes at one time or another to be rescued. We want someone else to take over for us, to love us unconditionally, to give us whatever we want. The wish to be adored is primary and irresistible. It reaches back into earliest childhood, when we were dependent on a mother’s love in order to survive. The narcissist, with his arresting charm and sheer force of personality, is capable of activating these deep wishes in others and using his desirability to exploit them.”
I think that is true for those of us who got involved with one who was actually high achieving, or pretended to be. They come on with the self-assurance that Steve Becker wrote about it. We mistake their tremendous self-assurance for character and integrity, when it is the opposite. In my case, I thought I knew who he was at his core, and ignored every red flag to the contrary. Let’s be honest. I ignored huge red billboards every fifty feet! And then once I was in it up to my eyeballs, I had the betrayal bond thing going on and what a painful mess it has been to extract myself.
I thought he was my one and only solution to the problems in my life. As it turns out, he was the nuclear bomb that somehow I survived, and miracle of miracles, everything is BETTER, oh so much better, than before the nuclear blast. But it almost killed me, it really almost did.
There are still days when it all drags me down. Yesterday was one of them. But this book has made me feel much better.
The book has pages and pages of explanation of why they are the way they are, and their telling traits. She uses real life examples to illustrate the points.
AT times I cringe and say…”ouch…I’ve done something like that”, reading about a narc trait, but then I read on and say “oh my god, no I haven’t!!” Like she explains the difference between anger (and I’ve done anger) and then RAGE…quite a difference.
It is scary, because much of what she says can lead to being a narc was present in my early life. Maybe that is why I can kind of get inside their head and feel like I know what they must go through. But I was saved. My therapist said as a child you can relate to the abuser or chose to be the victim. In this meaning, choosing to reject identification with abuser is a good thing. A victim can heal. A narc cannot.
And I think what saved me was Sunday school every single week telling me God loves me and that I was good, not bad. I’m not religious today, but I truly do think that saved me from becoming a narc like my brother did. He is a narcissiopath at best, as a matter of fact. So was my mom.
And ironically the man I was involved with saved me at 15/16 by being so abusive back then that the main trait I looked for in a man to marry was the anti-narc (without realizing I was doing that) and I accidentally married a mentally healthy person!!!
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 5:37pm
geminigirl says:
Here is some good news! We had our ‘adopted’ kids over for lunch yestarday,-here is the email, in full, which came this morning from Roya.{It was her 24th Birthday}.
“Hello, my dear Mum,How are you? How is dady? yesterday was a very nice day for us. My 24th Birthday was very beautiful, with you and dady. You gave me a very good memory. Everything was perfect. The very nice presents,delicious lunch, beautiful cake. All of them was thebest. I love you mama. I love you very much. You are very very kind, like an angel. Were so happy for havingyou and dady,and we will be your child forever, and we will do everything that we can for you and dady.Thank you very much for all your kindness. I dont know how I cansay thanks for them.I sent all the pictures that we took yesterday. They are so beautiful. Thanks again, mama. Im waiting for your email. Kiss you and dady. I love you! Take care. Your daughter, Roya.XX”Isnt God good to give me such a beautiful loving daughter. Of course I still love my girls, but its a sad love, not a glad love. I know youd want to share my happiness, Thanks to all of you, you are all AWESOME! your happy geminigirl{Hugs}.
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 6:32pm
Aeylah says:
Hi Evryone,
I hardly ever post here but I’ve been wanting to say THANK YOU, THATNK YOU and THANK YOU ALL!!!! for all your articles and posts which have been reading persistantly, helped keep me sane and validated my experience from finally breaking a 3 year confusing, abusive relationship with a Narciopath!
You do make a difference….but as we have all probably done at one time or another, we keep going back….even when the S is a high functioning, highly educated succsessfull, covert abuser that eveyone else sees as “such a nice guy”…and we question our reality.
I agree, it takes a tremendous ammount of self awareness, conditioning and perseverance to want to heal and we have to take responsibility for ourselves. When we help some one else and give advise we have to detach and just be patient, as we have to be with ourselves in the healing process.
The book I’m reading now…”The Betrayal Bond ” is really helping me the most in understanding this concept of why I keped gong back, why it’s so difficult breaking free, and understand why so many of us fall back into the pattern.
JustaboutHealed, I think I’m going to read the book you just recommended next.
Geminigirl….I’m so happy for you! enjoy the peace and love you are feeling right now! you deserv it!
Namastee
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 6:56pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Stayingsane,
I am so sorry you are going through all this, he sounds like a typical soul-less psychopathic user/abuser.
I think You have got him “pegged” —he is a user and abuser, and he will NOT pay you back—my advice is to cut your losses and run, get away as soon as you can, whtever “loss” you have had is over, no way to get it back by throwing good money after bad money (lost money) Whatever it takes to get him out of your house, I would recommend to do it, but don’t give him more money. If necessary, have police put him out.
My experience has been even if a court told you and him that he was responsible to repay you, he will not do it.
Good luck and God bless. (((hugs)))
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 7:57pm
eyeswideshut says:
tmassari 1
good to hear from you. Very much agree with your observation:
“The biggest and best lesson of everything that happened to me is to never ever become a victim – not only to others but to yourself. Help yourself above all, and the goodwill and beauty that grows within you will overflow and, by default, spread joy and peace. And when people see that peace, they will want it too.”
Great thread. Lot’s of wisdom and insights to ponder.
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 8:19pm
Brilhancy says:
Dear OxDrover,
I think you are absolutely right in giving this advice to Stayingsane. Run away and diminish your losses. There is no point in trying to get justice done or hoping he will pay. We all have been through that and I think we know the outcome.
Stayingsane, it is hurtfull but that is what they are. We feel sorry for what you are going through but happy that you founf LF and we know you will get over it like we all are doing. Getting knowledge and understanding what happen to us and how to survive the madness. We have hope and we will heal. The Ss will never change and there is no hope for them. This blog has been a life saver and a great source of healing and inspiration to many of us. It has helped me tremendously. I ended up winning in the material sense but wished I never had to go through what I have been through. I still healing from the pain and have come a long way already. I hope with the knowledge we acquaire in here will help many who are still involved with the S on how to best manage their exit from a relationship with those types of alien creatures.. I am sure you will be alright. Keep posting and we will read about your progress.
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 8:21pm
shabbychic says:
Aeylah… thanks for mentioning how much the book is helping you, others have said that too, I have the book… I’m going to try to read it again, maybe I just don’t want to look at myself, I took the quiz at the beginnning of the book and then just felt it was too much work.
geminigirl… glad to hear you had a nice time yesterday! She wrote you such a sweet email!
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 8:50pm
ANewLily says:
Geminigirl, I only have a minute to respond after I read all the latest posts. I feel guilty that I am only choosing to take this snippet of time to reply to you. My thoughts and prayers are with the others, though.
Genimi, I couldn’t help but think of the example of Job in the Bible when even I first heard about your new Iranian “children.” You may have lost children but He, in His goodness, has replaced them. Or is it only one you lost and He gave you two more? Sorry. I’ve been reading too many posts and getting mixed up.
Roya wrote a beautiful and heartfelt email. My heart sings with yours reading it.
I haven’t mixed YOU up, though. I”ve identified with you and your grief from the first I heard your story.Sometimes, identified TOO much to even know what to say.
Out of time.
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 9:56pm
geminigirl says:
Dearest newLily, Oxy, and all of you brave courageous smart women out there,-NewLily, I lost 2 children, my younger daughter Claire, now 43, I havent seen since the 25th feb.,2003, when I took her out for a Birthday lunch. I have NEVER once been allowed by her to see her 3 kids, now aged 13, 10, and one year. David and I dont even know what we are supposed to have done wrong. Deborah, now 45, I havent been in contact with for 6 long weeks. Up to that time she managed to fleece me of almost A$10,000 ,she never ever calls me unless she wants something,{usually cash}.
The final crunch came when I discovered she had selected as “Facebook Friends, two awful, punk girls,heavy drinkers, druggies, who helped her to trash my home and destroy my art studio.{twice}. She lived with them for a while in a squat,
after shed run away from home.{She had her own nice flat under our house at the time!} My ex husband was doing very well, he is an alcoholic but had been ‘dry for almost ten years when deb, at 16, left school, and ran away from home.
It destroyed him, she ws the one hed hoped would go to University. he used to sit and cry. I know it wasnt fair, but deep down, I blamed her for his drinking again. From then on, I had 2 of them out most nights getting drunk,{when shed come home again}, and I was bashed up by both my ex and by Deb,{while she was on drugs}. So, really Ive lost both my adult kids. My boundaries to her, in a letter, were that she remove these former punks and re-instate me on facebook,{it was my only source of getting pictures of her kids}, and I also asked her for only ONE apology, to cover all the unspeakably awful things she has done to me, the worst being to ban me from her wedding to kev, but invite my ex and my present husband.{Who naturally didnt go!} Ive heard absolutely nothing from her, Im sure she thinks Ill weaken and call her, but I know I CANT and MUST NOT. for my sanity and bank balance! I just heard today by email from kevin,{her ex, but still not divorced after 3 years} that he now has the 3 kids full time, as she lost her job, {again} and cant afford the rent of $500 a week, so shes had to move out.Im relieved that kev now has the kids full time, he has a god job, a car, and is a far better parent to these lovely kids. He says they will stay with him till she gets herself “sorted out”. I feel for her, as she is running out of suckers to sting, but truly, this will be the time to make or break her.You would think that she would give in and apologise to me, who has been her greatest ally and support, but her huge pride will prevent this.God knows,{and Im sure he does} know what will become of her! My instincts are to ring her and offer help, but if she stayed with David and I I know shed probably split us up! So, I have to stand firm. The other ‘replaced” child, is Abbas, Royas 24 year old husband, 6 feet 2 of love and appreciation! Im getting plenty of loving hugs from them, in fact each time they leaveus, they cry! yesterdayAbbas said to me while hugging me,”Thank you, my dear Mum, for all you do for us! I love you so much!” I have NEVER had such love and hugs from my own kids, maybe when they were really little, but Deb has never been one for physical contact, very cool and reserved.So, I have to give both my adult kids to God, and I thank him so much for my wonderful new family. Love and hugs,geminigirlXX
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Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 11:30pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Geminigirl,
My dear son D is the son that God gave me to replace my P-offspring. He has been with us for 12 years now, and was the son of my husband’s “old age” a wonderful addition to our family. Watching him “bloom” was the joy of my husband’s last years and we used to sit in the evening and smile and talk about how D was “blossoming” as he matured. It truly was a gift from God that he came into our lives. He was the only family member who stood firmly with me through all the chaos and pain, the only one who always believed me. He and my oldest son C are truly brothers, and my P-offspring is so jealous of our love for D and D’s love for us that it makes him BLIND with rage! At the same time, he is also jealous of his biiological brother, C…he is jealous of anyone whom we have a relationship with. Plus, Godforbid that they might be in our will! ha ha
P-son feels he is ENTITLED to everything we have, and is willing to kill us to get it! Of course he is not the only person in the world who feels ENTITLED to a bequest, and my own personal feeling is that a bequest is a gift, not a RIGHT to anyone. No one owes me a bequest, and I do not owe them one, regardless of blood ties.
GIFTS are NOT EARNED or required, but freely given, without any “pay back” required except thanks and appreciation.
PAY is money for work done (or to be done) and NO THANKS are required, it is money earned.
When no thanks are given for GIFTS, or appreciation shown or expressed sincerely, then the giver is NOT required to give further gifts, and that includes being “in the will.” Neither is the giver given the right to be “upset” or angry with the recipient for not thanking them, except to note a lack of apparent gratitude or appreciation and with hold FURTHER gifts. NO ONE IS ENTITLED TO GIFTS.
My egg donor was one for “gifts with strings attached”—in other words, a “gift” BOUGHT CONTROL. If no control was dispensed, she became angry. I learned not to accept her offered “gifts” because I would not allow her control. She was actually angry that I did not accept her “gifts” because she knew she could not then expect to control me in return.
Of course her offered ‘gifts” were really her offer to PAY me for control. Since I did not want her control, I did not accept her PAY which she tried to call “gifts.”
Your daughters’ feelings of ENTITLEMENT to treat you with contempt and then expect you to GIVE them money (or whatever) is obviously from disordered thinking. You are under no obligation to give “gifts” to anyone you do not WANT to.
I do not WANT to give gifts to people who treat me poorly. I do not want to accept false “gifts” that are really pay for control in a slightly disguised form.
Spend your time with the people who love you, your David and your “adopted” children—give the GIFTS of your love, time and concern to those people, and withhold your time and attention to those that treat you poorly! God has truly been good to you by blessing you with people in your life who do love you, even though they may not be your blood relations.
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 12:21am
ANewLily says:
Gemini, Now I remember more of your story! Yes, my heart has bled for you — as I said, I hurt so bad for you that I couldn’t even respond to you at first.
I realize now from your gratitude for me finally responding that I was wrong. I should have been able to put you before myself. Sorry. ——Whoa. Oxy’s words to take care of ourselves FIRST just flitted across my mind. I didn’t respond to you at first because I wasn’t strong enough to do it yet. I have a feeling you understand.
Oxy, I have rejoiced with you that you had D’s full support when you were going through the worst of it. Our family were not gift givers, except at Christmas, so it is hard for me to understand. Well, I do understand that some people use gifts to CONTROL. God grief, as I think about it, that is the tie that EX had with our son for years — but it was money put out for his rent and for car purchases, etc. for years. I didn’t think of those things as gifts, I guess. Ex did not do the same for the girls but once they were married, their husbands (good men) they didn’t need it, I guess. None of the 3 girls were ever materialistic — except the oldest one for the latest fashions — so I can’t really identify with Gemini either about being soaked out of her funds by her daughter. I applaud your resolve, Oxy.
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 1:29am
ANewLily says:
correction and addition — Good Grief, not God grief! and the addition that EX had complete control over our son with his enabling in every way, especially with money for expenses son was ABLE to pay for himself.
My good news today is that the “Plan” God gave me last Friday was put into action this afternoon. The most joyous news is that I got Daughter #2 firmly back!! And she is safe! She will be out of state for a week which will “help” the most. I have hopes for son to call me tomorrow night (he was out of town today) and renewed hope, but not entirely, that oldest daugher will contact me once she gets back from their out of the country trip. Of course, third daughter had returned over a year ago — and I’m still stinging from my own foolish “paranoia” about her not calling. Her reasons were entirely VALID. I didn’t talk to her today because her shifts at the hospital were hefty all wek. She’ll call tomorrow night, no doubt.
Here I am sandwiching my good news in bettween other stuff but I have been meaning to mention that having “adopted” children that add richness to our lives is shared by me, too.
I have two former foster daughters who contact me regularly (by email) and an “adopted” son who now lives in Egypt but writes even more regularly (be email)
I count them as blessings but these past few years I have also felt grief that my “adopted” children seem to show more concern for me than my own. (And my weekly prayer partner from “home” told me last Mother’s Day that she has adopted ME as her mother! Joy!)
BUT, I predict that after today the years of “keeping the faith” will bring new joys. I wish the same for you, also.
Wish I could tell you more details about the “miracle” God provided but I can’t on a public board.
I hope I’ve made sense. It’s been 3 days of intense emotions. I am eager to get back to my quiet life that I had become accustomed to, living alone as I do.
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 1:47am
ANewLily says:
Meant to add that I am SO happy for you, Gemini, that your adopted children are able to visit you in person. And, I think I have already told Oxy how happy I am for her that D was close by — and that now even Son C is nearby and safe.
There is another gal whose only daughter lives across the continent from her. She knows the loneliness of not having personal contact so I’m not “alone.”
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 1:58am
geminigirl says:
Thank you So much, NewLily and Oxy, for your loving, and encouraging words! God today reminded ome of a medieval poem,{written for the lute}, about the time of Shakespeare. God told me to tell you this is how he sees YOU!
here is the poem,[I learned it at school}
“Have you seen but a white Lily grow, before rude hands had touched it?
have you marked but the fall of the snow,before the earth has smutched it?
have you felt of the wool of beaver, or swansdown ,ever?
Or have smelled of the bud of the briar,{rose},or the nard {resin} in the fire?
Or have tasted the bag of the bee?
Oh so white, Oh so soft, Oh so sweet, so sweet, so sweet is she!” This is how God sees you, Lily, a brand new Lily! Love and Hugs to you and Oxy too, geminigirlXXX
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 2:37am
Tood says:
This article comes at just the right time for me. I’ve been trying so far unsuccessfully to get one of my children to institute No Contact with the classic case she’s been seeing for the last 8-10 months. She can’t seem to do it. I must back away and let her learn her own lessons, as painful as I know they will be.
And someone or something killed my dogs last week, making it even more difficult to keep my chin up. (When I first bought this property, the man who sold it warned me about one particular family. Called them dog-killers. I suspect this is just part of this neighbor’s ongoing campaign against anyone who lives here. He disputes the property line and is notorious for underhanded and criminal behavior.) Tilly, I sure know what you mean when you say there are so many of them, and they are everywhere.
I can only do what I can do. No more. I’ll repeat as necessary. Thanks to all for being here.
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Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 9:54pm
Stayingsane says:
Tood
Someone or something killed your dogs? “dog killers”? this makes me very angry and I would take immediate action…anything before depression levels you and these bastards get away with it. Maybe I’m naive but that is murder. That is not materials, that is flesh and blood…..
Ox-drover
Thanks so much, maybe I should let him just go? not pay me back? accept it? I dont understand how any closure can be reached if I dont at least get something in my direction? that means he has won…he dusts himself off and waits for the next mug to rip off..I am already obsessed with getting even to an unhealthy degree…it is like he forcing me into his lifeless world where winning is paramount….and I want to hurt him back. I feel so helpless…if ‘m not plotting his downfall am i turning crazy, is this a normal phase?
Brilhancy
My goal is to exit this relationship to this alien, and I hear you when you say even if the courts order him to pay…he wont and that just keeps me strung along and has access to further torment me….its beyond the courts then…something must frighten them…what frightens a psychopath?
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Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 5:09am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tood,
I am so sorry that you lost your dogs, but sometimes people in the country (where dogs may legally run loose at least in my area) resent dogs coming on to their property, and are legally able to kill them if they swear the dogs are chasing live stock.
Frankly I have killed dogs on my place that did chase and KILL livestock, AND I also made the owner pay for the damaged/killed livestock. It wasn’t the dog’s fault, but owners who had been WARNED by me multiple times that their dogs were chasing stock and refused to keep them up. They will “pack up” and chase and kill or inijure stock because that is their instinct to “hunt” coming out. It is a People problem not a dog problem, though.
I do not allow my dogs to run loose because I do not want them to be a pain in the neck to neighbots, tear inito trash etc. I no longer have a guardian dog (Great white Pyreness) but she, by instinct, did not ever leave her territory and knew where the property lines were. She was shot in her OWN YARD about two years ago for “sport”—couldn’t prove who did it, but I knew. I share your pain at losing your pets, though.
Stayingsane,
I know it is difficult to just “let them get by with it” but 99.9% of the time, in the end they win anyway, because you fight it with legal and moral grounds, and they refuse to pay and people end up putting more energy and time and worry into trying to out wit them to get th emoney and the thing is, they ENJOY THE FIGHT and in the end, most of the time, NEVER PAY THE MONEY BACK ANYWAY. I am not the only one here who can testify that the financial fight against them is generally futile.
Learning to SUCK UP the losses is also painful, but accepting what IS is the only way I have found to get “closure.” You may have to try to get your money back in order to see my point of view, but it is YOUR money, YOUR choice and YOUR healing….each case is somewhat different, and each of us is somewhat different, so if you feel you must fight him for the money, I hope you are the exception and can get it, but if you don’t, just be aware that you have NOT “failed”—–You are STILL THE WINNER, because you have HIM OUT OF YOUR LIFE!!! Whatever the “tuition” in the University of Hard Knocks, it was worth it to get him out of your life! (((hugs)))))
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Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 11:00am
JaneSmith says:
Betty,
The emotional pain, the stress you are enduring, is palpable in your post. I would dearly love to be there in person for you, holding your hand, just to listen and care.
But since I can’t be there in person I’m here on LF. I can relate to needing to live with someone for a time to recoup and collect yourself. I lived with an N male for 3 months when I moved to Idaho from Texas. It was awful and he also lived with his parents, a 41 year old guy, who were just as selfish, self absorbed as he was. Wonder where he got it, huh?
True, I was unaware of what he was in the beginning as first he deceived me with sweet words that seemed sincere. The longer I stayed in his home the worse he became. He didn’t frighten me, hardly (other way around) but he was one of the most immature, selfish persons I had ever had the displeasure of meeting and actually caring for in my life.
My care and attraction for him diminished fairly quickly when the real dude beneath revealed himself. He was stingy with food, for goodness sakes! How stupid is that? I paid for every scrap I ate never asked him for a dime and willingly shared my food with him and his lodger. Retarded behavior, the stinginess with food. Of course, he was stingy with everything, not only food.
Anyway, not meaning to bore you, doll, just sharing my situation with you of living with awful, uncaring people. I blew up at him a few times, trying to express to him how his behavior is cruel, unsavory and he would just sit there, all eyes and silence, then run to his parents (eye roll) and tell them how horrible I am. So ridiculous.
When he started putting pressure on me to move out, him realizing I’m not this adoring, myopic, submissive, docile, bubble headed barbie doll that he desired, I quickly found a job AND a place to live within a week. My Mom helped with money and I was so grateful and slightly humiliated to ask, but being the kind and generous woman that she is, she just said…”get the hell away from that creep, fast!”
I did and never regretted it. The “creep” called me 2 weeks later after I moved, behaving in the classic P/N/S way, acting as if nothing happened, and even though I was just starting to educate myself about Narcissists I told him that if he fell off the face of the Earth I wouldn’t give a flying flip. That he was an ugly man, inside and out and I didn’t want to ever communicate with him again. He sputtered some crap about me not being able to insult very well then hung up. Which meant, he was now well aware that I loathed him and wanted him gone from my life forever.
Now my mentality on the idea of living with anyone is I would rather live under a tree and eat leaves rather than be subjected to one iota of abuse from a cruel humanoid. I would, I mean it. I would rather be homeless than accept the suspicious “kindness” from any damn individual.
My peace, my serenity, my sanity, my dignity, my self respect is worth so much more to me than to allow one more person to inflict any type of abuse onto me.
Betty, don’t give up trying to find a job. Heck, do any type of work just to save up money so you can move out of that house as quickly as possible. Once you find a humble abode for yourself, you can always find an employment position more suitable to your intellect, education and experience.
Best wishes…
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Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 1:24pm
JaneSmith says:
The post to Lovely Betty should be in the “Catch and Release” thread not this one.
Hope she sees it and wholeheartedly knows we care for her and her healing and recovery.
xxooxxoo…
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Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 2:50pm
slimone says:
Stayingsane,
Welcome to the blog. First off, as with any new person I am sorry you, or any of us, had to go through this kind of betrayal. But, I am glad you found your way here. This place is a virtual goldmine of love, understanding, and integrity.
Many of the people here have lost LOTS of money and resources. Really, some of the losses reported here are staggering. And, though the physical losses are astounding, it is the emotional/spiritual losses that I find myself most saddened by. The sheer devastation of the human spirit witnessed here. This is not caused by loss of money or resources. The loss of belief, of hope, of self; these losses are caused by the abuse of love, of the heart.
I myself lost upwards of 25,000.00 and a car. Forfeited, actually. Because trying to recoup the losses, though they were ‘owed’ me, meant more contact, pain, insult, betrayal, and injury. They meant more insult to my HEART, my soul, my very core. And to me, these were far more important to protect.
Not that you asked, but I urge you to be sure what you are fighting for is worth the price you may have to pay.
Some of us are ‘up’ for the battle, and have the armor in place to keep the ourselves from being further drained. Some have no choice, like when we are fighting for our children (and we get the best lawyers we can afford!). Some of us know we cannot do battle without losing more of ourselves. I was one of the latter.
You’ll have to know where you fit into the equation. Just remember your heart, and protect yourself. Sometimes money is just paper.
Glad you are here. Slimone
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Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 11:04pm
Betty says:
Dear JaneSmith,
Gotcha! Thank you so much, Dear One. Thanks a million!
BIGhugs!
Betty
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 2:01am
ErinBrockovich says:
Stayingsane:
Hello there and sorry we meet under such sucky circumstances!
I am a fighter type. What my situation boiled down to, for me, was…..the S wouldn’t be happy even if I gave him everything, mind/body/soul/kids/money etc…..
So that known…..and my anger, frustration, betrayal by family acting as proxy and my dignity….
I decided to expose, document, PI, and get what I could….period. I knew it would be nothing but ugly with him anyways, so I decided to be the one in control of my path!
I NAILED HIS ASS! GOOD! I was successful at getting every ‘material’ possesion we had…..oh, except the golf clubs….no biggie, I don’t golf! That was my only concession.
You played me like a fool…..and I called on my inner sociopath and fought fire with fire.
It took an enormous amount of energy and work…..but satisfying as hell for me!
I don’t know if it’s for everyone, but i do believe we are all capable of the fight. Like slimone stated…..its situational.
I will tell you, your processing through your dreams….pay attention to them. As disturbing as they are at the time…..write them down, and reflect on them.
Also, it may be worth your while to investigate the laws and file a case on your own. DO not let the legal system intimidate you either!!!
IF we can’t afford the process…..do it yourself…..take out that burden! He will be represented and HE will incure the expense…..this will make him more apt to settle. I never saw it as I had somehting to lose….only to gain. It’s not optimal to represent ourself, but it is doable! (BTW, I did have council).
If you have the balls, and decide it’s worth the process….I am of the mindset of GO FOR IT!
Do you know how many people told me…..EB….Leave it alone…..It’s not worth it! Oh, not a chance! And I HAVE NO REGRETS!!!!! NONE….I vindicated myself, I freed my kids and I made him ‘go away’.
He has been silent lately, so this tells me he is up to something, so I am preparing for his next attack…..this is the nature of my S!
I know his patterns/behaviors/warnings and heads ups…..and I use my ‘inner sociopath’ to nail him. He taught me well….and I am aware of how to balance “ME” with who I need to be at the time.
So…….If you can’t find peace and you find it’s worth your while….I say….. can the farker!
That’s just moi.
Keep us posted, and NEVER QUESTION YOURSELF!!!!!!!!
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 2:23am
Brilhancy says:
Stayingsane,
“My goal is to exit this relationship to this alien, and I hear you when you say even if the courts order him to pay…he wont and that just keeps me strung along and has access to further torment me….its beyond the courts then…something must frighten them…what frightens a psychopath? ”
Oh Gosh! this is a difficult question. I can only respond based on my own experience. Every experience is different and the circumstances are also different. But in my case, after years of trying everything and every possible way, I could not free myself from him and I was working to give money to him. We always hope they will get better and change, but they never will.
In my case the only solution I found was to become a sociopath worse them him without him know. I had to pretend not to be angry and not to confront him. (OUR ANGER JUST GIVES THEM POWER AND THEY GET A LOT OF SATISFACTION). I went along with his plans being agreable and cooperating with him for him to achieve his adventure (another affair but I pretended I believed in his estory that he was going to a very dangerous adventure). Being so understanding and not challenging him I managed to have the assests separated the way I wanted (25% for him and 85% for me with the seal and approval from the Family Court, I managed to have an Enduring Power of Attorney from him and with that I withdrew all his retirement funds. And the beauty of it, is that he now knows I know everything he went overseas for and that I gave him the biggets betrayal of his life…I betrayed him instead of him betrayal me, as he was initialling intending.
You will have to think how you can do something similar in your case. This is the only way to win from them.. You have to have a plot in place to safe yourself. Everything you do has to be well planned , but never ever let him know or feel that you are up to something. You will have to be cold as ice but pretend to be worm towards him. This is the hardest thing to do and I believe it is not many people who can do this. I was so desperate that my only survival was to become this person.. but after I free myself from him I allowed myself to break down. I allowed myself to release all the pain that I was keeping inside…
Become his friend is the best way to start..and as this is in place you start preparing yourself ..
I wish I had a much simpler solution for you. One thing I found out. the Ss are not very intelligent..once you know this you can succeed..
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 8:39am
Stayingsane says:
ErinBrockovitch
You are speaking my language! I am so cheered up by your attitude, even if a little alarmed at enjoyment you are getting out of waiting on the next move…But I think you are FANTASTIC for deciding to be in control of your own path…I cannot tell you how delighted I am that you NAILED HIS ASS GOOD! I needed so badly to hear it was possible to do it…you did it! Good for you getting every material possession back and for having the guts to put the amount of work in to satisfy your soul…It is time to stand up to the intimidation and out stare, outsmart, outwit…these creeps! using your “inner Sociopath” is GENIUS because firstly you admit you can be worse than him to get him…I’m feeling a bit grubby for wanting to go after him because there is no doubt you are in the water with the shark, the only thing a predator shark wont attack is a fellow predator and thats what I’m cultivating in myself at the moment…
then I have moments where I’m thinking, hang on i need time to recover, meet new men, start dating again….not turning into Charles Bronson…but maybe i can do both? I am running on instinct now…every day since I came back I am checking my account to see if he has paid back any money…(duh…nothin there!) and then fine tuning elements and re thinking and double guessing and beginning to play him by staying close…very close..I ‘m ringing his sister today…to directly tell her to encourage her brother to pay me back or else…then I will be contacting his previous ex whom he left with money problems and he just vanished to Ireland to get away from her leaving her with terrible financial struggle culminating in her selling the house, instead of getting money sent over from him to keep the house…he just fled the scene and he was telling me she was a crazy person….wait till all us women band together…Telling people is a good way to stay protected..as long as I don’t give them any reason to think I’m hysterical and crazy (which of course I am…its what they do )
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 9:05am
TNewman says:
Update on Biddy…yes…we can only do what we can do!
You are in love with the person he wants you to believe he is. He knows what is important to you so he’s representing himself as being that kind of person. When you see the man that he really is underneath all his superficial fake actions that he’s learned from others and off tv and Lord only knows where else…trust me…he will not be someone that you even desire to be in the same room with. And, no, they do not heal as they get older. They just don’t have the stamina to do what they do as often. And, the certainly don’t suddenly grow a conscience or the ability to love another person for anything more than what that person can do to feed their own egos. And, it doesn’t matter whether you were committed or not…I still remember the tearful email that you sent me when he hurt you when you found out what he had been doing. Would you like for me to send you a copy of it?
—————– Original Message —————–
From: Biddy
To: T
Date: Aug 5, 2009 9:04 AM
Subject: RE: These came overnight
I know the risk with him and none of us can say if he is going to change or NOT. I am giving him a chance to prove himself. I love him no matter what and will always try to be there for him. I am a friend to him and will never turn my back on him whether we are in a relationship or not. I think what he and I went through is somewhat different as to what you two went through. I gave him no commitment and was doing my own thing so he did his. God will repay him, the other woman, Me, you and the other women he was running with in some way or another for what we have done as bad people. I have no doubt about that. I have talked to professionals too that have said that they didn’t find him to be a sociopath but did find him to have a lot of security issues. I was also told even if it was sociopathic ways that he could and probably would change because most usually do in the late 30’s, early to mid 40’s. I think he is well capable of having feelings including guilt. He don’t beg for my forgiveness he just says he hopes I can forgive him someday and he knows it will take time. He has even came out and told his boss and his wife what happened. His co-worker said he told him that he had married me and told him no more putas (whores). He said he told him good, good. I was worried, you don’t need those putas you were hanging out with, he said they were no good for him. I think he has came a long way and is excepting responsibility for his actions. If he changes it will be for himself and no one else.
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 9:25am
Stayingsane says:
Brilhancy
The Ss are not very intelligent….once you know this you can succeed….I think this is why I am feeling energised, he actually is a bit dumber than I thought, and of course having no feelings must be an incredibly dull dark place…and so I feel sad again. Isnt it so sad that people get so cut off from their core emotions.I have this stubborn woman thing that if he gets the right love, enough love he would begin to feel again, but that’s where his mask slipped…he was showing signs of disgust at anything emotional and equating emotional with stupid….deserving of no respect.. thanks for your story…I’m feeling a different side of things now and thats yeah you took him to the cleaners, nailed him, got him good but so what ? he wasn’t that intelligent after all and it was even easy to get him…cold as ice…plot in place…you betrayed him…y’know and its not like he can turn around and say “i’m sorry” The guys a sociopath so….
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 9:26am
TNewman says:
Oh goodness, I feared that I had just posted the above comment before editing out the REAL names of people. By the way, that is an email exchange between Biddy and me. The first part is my response to her message which follows!
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 9:27am
Stayingsane says:
oh God…feeling very sick….just rang my ex’s sister…and she told me she couldn’t care what happened her brother, because he is a bastard…that she was on my side and someone should stop him, he couldn’t give a shit, always was like that and always will be..He used to beat her up, and she had a miscarriage when kicked in the stomach by him…he tried to marry another woman in May!!!! whom he knew for 2 months…she has a great job and a nice apartment so he wanted to cash in on that!..she didnt go through with it..so much horrible information on him….all evidence of everything….she also said he gets a thrill out of how upset women get…he will never pay me back.. and she would love to see him in jail…**!!???**!!!
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 11:58am
Brilhancy says:
Stayingsane
I am so sorry to know that you are in this. Nothing of what your ex-sister told is new to any of us who have been the victms of this type of creature. No one can get them and they will keep repeating their abuses over and over and over on new victms. Try to keep your emotions under control> Aren’t you glad you found out on the early stages of your relationship? Aren’t you glad to know that he will not fool you anymore?. If you have to loose the finances be it, but you are a great winner freeing yourself from this horrible person.
My ex S has done similar things and his sisters and mothers were covering for him at the beggining until he drop them as well and stole money from them. They never stop and it is very hard to get them.. My ex S stole money and jewellery from his own teenager daugther
Now you can understand a lot more why I had to become a cold , premeditaded and calous sociopath to get free from my S. I really feel for you but I am glad you found out on time before you had to loose a lot more. Be brave and strong and use the sthrengh of your knowledge about sociopaths to help your recovering. We will be here for you to support you and to hear you. Pat you back that he showed himself to you just now and not 20 years down the track when we have 2, 3 children who are also victms of their own father.. Be brave .
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Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 7:18pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Brilhancy/Stayingsane…..
HERE HERE Ladies…..I was in for 28 years!
I will tell you……there are lot’s of ‘rules’ to follow in ‘taking them down’. I agree…..not everyone is up to it, and if your not absolutely 100% right on with your moves……it could be devastating.
It’s a personal decision only you can make!
So….that said…
RULE #1…..NEVER GET COCKY!
Never discuss your plans or real thoughts of him with anyone that ever was or is ‘close’ with him……
You may think you can trust someone…..until they expose your plan…..then it’s all over…..REMEMBER…..LOOSE LIPS SINK SHIPS!!!!!
Never react immediately…..this one is a good lesson for the long haul in life itself. But in the meantime, practice on the S. There will be many a time you want to react about something immediately…..it’s about self control, and being stealth….Keep your eye on the bigger picture……..go for the winning of the WAR…..not each and every battle…..if you expect anything, you will always be dissappointed. Toss any expectation to the universe.
I had a friend call today, pissed off about a situation in her divorce……she was telling me all the calls she was going to make today with her demands…… I let her talk, because it was safe to do so with me……then I said…..STOP…..you can never make a decision when you are angry….pull back, no one is going to die today, let it all settle in and you may feel differently over the weekend……sure as shit, she called tonight with another, way more rational plan. My advice was still to let it settle over the weekend.
If we react to each and every pinch……we are giving them what they want and we are the reactionary ones……it’s a test….PASS IT!
There are just so many issues to take into consideration.
For me it was worth it…..each step.
I look back at my willingness to be aware, split myself into however many ‘parts’ I needed to, to be able to ’see’ what was going on around me…….then make my decisions, all carefully, under the radar.
I remember one time…..Oh, and this was the hardest, but in some sick way rewarding…….I came to the conclusion when he kidnapped one of our children……that, after 2 months had passed, I was going to need to change my strategy here to allow him to ‘revert’ on the lies he told our child…..so I did! I did this because I felt it was ‘life or death’ with this child…he was romantisizing thoughts of suicide and cut me off due to the lies his father had told him. I was completely disconnected from my son, when his father concocted the story that I had never been sick and was faking having cancer! Talk about psycho!!! I was willing to do anything I had to do, and I did!
I used sex! I prostituted myself with my husband. I played him like I had been played for 28 years…..I was totally conscious of my role, and felt this was what I needed to do…….so I did. I didn’t feel good about it, and it was all an act……I pulled hard on my ‘inner sociopath’ at that point!
It was amazing, just how he played into my hand….like putty. I led him to believe we were going to be together, once I had him under my ’spell’…..he worked his way back around to thinking he was in control of me……and I let him. He said….Okay, heres what we need to do…..and layed out a plan……I called his bluff and said, NO! YOu do it (his plan)……and he did……I got him out of town long enough to do what I had to at my rental house he was staying in, recon up the wazoodle…….. his behaviors when he left town, exposed him to family and I allowed HIM to plant his own seeds. Its very convoluted, but what I needed was to ‘be close’ to him…..allow him to think he ‘had’ me…..and be able to reconnect with our child.
It thankfully worked. The things he told family, alerted them to how weird he was and bizaar thought processes.
He also came right out and offered me information on how he needed to ‘fix’ things to allow us to be a ‘family’ again.
That particular time period was very telling for me.
Once I got what I needed to get done, I went 500 miles to where my child was and just ’showed up’. My poor baby was so damn confused! I was in Houston at Dr’s apts with MD Anderson and I left a day early to fly to where son was. Oh, holy crap, when the S found out I was with son……he blew a gasket…..but I stayed with son for 2 weeks and allowed him to process it all on his own time. I allowed son to direct every conversation until he figured it all out on his own. I couldn’t go ‘rambo’ on him and ’shove’ it all down his throat…..but he figured it out at the end of the first week. He sat in the car with me in a parking lot and we were chatting…..he asked me about another situation where his father had ‘come between us’, and at that point…..he said…..OMG…..Dad did the same thing this time didn’t he? I just looked at him and said….’it’s important for you to see it for yourself kiddo’.
So anyways…..yes, we must be crafty, conniving, stealth and KEEP OUR MOUTHS SHUT!
Think clearly, only take calculated risks adn NEVER Take chances out of desparation. If there is even a remote chance they will ‘cotton on’ to what you are doing…..stop and change tracks. If you need time……take it.
But, you are 100% correct in thinking you are one of many, there will always be another person to con, then after them…..a million more unfortunately.
My exs family was in contact with me initially……spilled their guts to me, we figured out the behaviors together……then they all gave in to the power he had over them. I am so glad I didn’t share what I was up to , my strategies, my plans……I kept some things close to the hip.
Remember, we can’t listen if our mouth is going…..I’m a talker, but I learned how to shut up and just listen, ask leading questions and listen and take notes (or record conversations for my own recolection)
Now on to the formers/ex’s….
Don’t think of a gang rape situation with him…..S’s like confrontation…….chaos, drama…..this is how he would view this…….
Think of the first wives club and get him by the balls….If they are angry at him and have nothing to ‘gain’ in regards to repayment……just gather info from them, don’t go into attack mode with them……you will only lose and look crazy…..(See I told you they were crazy). Again, they know how to respond to conflict….they are masters at that.
You want to do NOTHING to give him or others this impression, remember he has slandered you to everyone who will listen, DO NOT confirm his statements by any questionable actions in public;……again, self control.
Know your enemy. You will have to step outside of yourself for this on…….You didn’t know him while you were with him, so nows the time to make a study of him.
Okay…..that’s it for now….bedtime!
Good luck, and remember the rules of recon!
XXOO
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 3:05am
Stayingsane says:
ErinBrockavitch/Brilhancy
thanks I’m hanging on your every word. My instinct is saying attack him aggressively and dramatically, I did not know they enjoyed confrontation, I suppose it makes me look cracked when I do it, and I was at his front door shouting at him that he was a disgrace..He was sniggering and making the gesture to my neighbour and his parents…see? look at her? I’m not shouting am I? this woman is crazy…his crazy making method is ignoring my requests for documents, help, accountability…he would just fob me off, say he would do things and then just not do them….his sister told me she had heard I suddenly turned crazy..So this I clearly need to watch. As for being cocky! I am, its because I feel so small that I am trying to puff myself up into a scary animal about to strike….but this cockiness is my ego fighting for survival…so I hereby surrender to the battles and start observing the bigger picture….I will no longer react, its not working it just fuels my insanity and my goal is to stay sane..anchored in the real world where I’m unharmed really…I found out 1 and a half years into the sham….thats a blessing, we have no kids together, we have no house (even though he bombarded me with marriage proposals…how creepy now to think of that) the house is in my name, ok he made a mess of the so called “renovation” and I lost about 10, 000 euros on trusting him to look after it…so this is nothing in comparison with you guys…28 years with someone like that, what it must do to your head…and your children’s heads, you must be a genius at this stage to have stayed sane, and you really do sound so level headed and experienced so that’s a testament to the human spirit, and alot of women are going through this now….I guess to learn the lessons and evolve???? what a crappy thing to live through….I am still utterly obsessed with what he has done, what he has turned out to be, what I am continuing to find out about him….I wish I didn’t care and I could just drop it….I’m covering every angle with my mind, at the moment i am holding an image of him as being an inflated balloon that I am just itching to pop! how to do it…how to burst his bubble…after bursting my own. Self control..stealth…I like that word stealth…whats in his head about me now? does he wonder or worry…what is the brain of a psychopath like when he gets up in the morning…all an act? whats the real person doing…where is he located? back to reading everything on this site because I really get caught out thinking he is normal and he will wake up. But he is a completely different ball game to normal..
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 5:11am
Brilhancy says:
ErinBrockavitch/Stayingsane
“Never discuss your plans or real thoughts of him with anyone that ever was or is ‘close’ with him……”
I am the only one who knows what I have done. Not even my children know it. The S only found out when he tried to get back to me…..I have no courage to tell anyone, because I will look a completely bad person…but no one also knows what I went through. I moved overseas with him (actually he came with me) and our baby daughter. So, isolation for me in a foreign country was a very favourable thing for him. I think when we moved overseas he was already running from something else and was using me for that. Only now I know that.
Marriage. I never believed in marriage and I never wanted to get marriaed. He insisted so much and I finally agreed after our second child. eg; after 7 years together and our life was really good. After I got married on his insistence he started showing his claws. (in our marriage certificate he put himself as a Lawyer and I always believed he done Law degree- he never went to Uni, and only 3 years after i got free from him i found out his is bagamous) . After the marriage I became his possession and things started to change and by then I had 2 kids and my career to manage. The bastard never got a real job only spending money with new cars, and all sort of tools which he never used for anything. Then was moving houses .He was never satisfied with anything and slowly started abusing me and the psycotic attacks and all sort of craziness and I had 2 young children but he was always good with th kids and started telling them I think Mum is crazy… Then I found out he made a life insurance for me. That was the only bill he never forgot to pay. In one of our figths he said: the best thing that could happen to him was if I dye because he would get all the insurance money. There were no DV that could get him out from my house, I had a few court orders for him not to come close to the house but he managed to overturned that decision and here he was again. All nice and all promises. He would not separate from me, no, no way. His mission was to desgrace me and finish with my life. But in a way that no one could tell. No one would ever believed me if I told what he was. With other people he was the most amazing person, caring father and devoted husband. That is how well they play..when in fact he was killing me slowly..
So be aware and play his game. Do not get angry at him.. be nice to him he wants to make you completely submisse to him. be it. pretend you love him a lot and can not leave without him and slowly device your plan to finish with him. It is time for you to gether every piece of material on him and documenting everything. Be careful on how you do this.
But I am not sure if 10.000 euros is worth the pain and sacrifice. If I had only 10.000 to loose I would ignore him completely and concentrate my energies in get 10.000 back soon and a complete new life. specially because you have no children.. Why boder….but if you want to play him you can do it..
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 6:45am
ErinBrockovich says:
Stayingsane:
If it’s ‘justice’ your seeking, you will never get that. If it’s revenge your seeking, you will never get that either. If you want to change him and ‘make him’ respect you, you will only declare war.
You must be careful. Like I said before, you need to work out the ‘weights and measures’ prior to taking this on.
There is always a cost involved.
I was financially devastated…..140K in debt and climbing…..home in foreclosure etc….
My health was questionable and my financial future looked questionable if I had the energy inside my body to rebuild my business and the stamina to be able to keep up.
If I got sick again, NOW WHAT?
Bankruptcy wouldn’t discharge a lot of my debts….
So I had to fight tooth and nail. My S was an idiot and stupid….not a business guy, but a con….rico suave type……relied on his looks and charm….didn’t have anything to back it up…..that was my role all those years…..take care of business and allow him to appear ‘under control’.
So take away me and you are left with stupid.
Don’t count on ever seeing the money……it’s a good mindset to get to…..acceptance. Reduce your expectations.
You need to read this site before you proceed. You can’t go into anything without knowing it inside and out.
The only reason I could go after ‘him’, was because our divorce was not final and I knew what assets were still in tact to go after. As the wife, I had a legal right…….I was afraid of the home foreclosing and him draining the retirement accounts…….and to be honest, if he had of done that, it wouldn’t have been worth the fight. I knew there was something to go after.
You still come out angry, because you will never be able to change WHAT he has done, and continues to do.
The ‘revenge’ never takes that away and thisseems what you are seeking.
I suggest you allow yourself to get to the point of trading this lesson as the price you paid for this education. Educate yourself on the topic to allow yourself to be more aware of the next con coming your way. We all get more cons, so don’t believe you will be immune………it’s how we let them affect us. We can block them out with awareness and education. Keep those decoder glasses on and develop a new set of life/trust/awareness rules moving forward.
Yes, it would appear they win……but trust in this…..they do not, and it always catches up!!!!! We need to develope patience to trust in……
The gift is always ours, when we choose to educate ourselves for the future and rid ourselves of this sort of relationship. You must heal!.
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 11:08am
OxDrover says:
Dear Staying sane,
I totally agree with the above posts, you will NEVER get justice. And even if you did, you would never get the money back. He will figure some way out of actually paying it back, and you will expend good energy that could be used for healing yourself after getting “justice” and maybe even a bit of revenge—and then be emptier than before you tried to get justice and/or money.
They are SO CRAFTY and so mean, and SO ENJOY the fight because they usually WIN–but even if they don’t win, they don’t learn from their mistakes, and FEEL AS IF THEY ARE THE WINNERS.
My P-son murdered a woman and was put in prison and yet he still feels that he is a WINNER after more than half his life in prison for robbery then murder. It isn’t his fault he went to prison, but the “fault” of those that turned him in for his crime. NOW MAKE SENSE IF YOU CAN OF THAT! I sure can’t see how he is a WINNER, but HE SEES HIMSELF AS A WINNER because he can’t think any other way. Nothing is ever his fault! His robbing and murdering weren’t wrong, his only “problems” are those created by witnesses and others. LOL He will never change, never learn from his mistakes, and nothning is wrong for him to do if he wants to do it. Rules are FOR OTHERS, NOT FOR HIM.
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 1:13pm
bopeep says:
Dear Oxy,
I need to tell you the only reason for a person like me to not take advice is because…with 4 kids…I am financially ruined to the penny and cannot afford to take off….I always tell myself…if I win the lottery I will go to the opposite ends of the world! Money really matters and when you’ve lost everyone you had called friend because they dont want to know you when everything is gone( but boy were they there to enjoy your successes!) and you have no support…you just stay and shut up…not because you want to …because you have kids and cannot take the thought of living in a homeless shelter and starting your life over again at almost 49…You kind of lose the will that had made you successful in the first place.Its sad but I think ok…someday I’ll die and see God…and then all will be good because for certain my S/P wont be there
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 2:39pm
Stayingsane says:
Brilhancy
You really had it with that creep, and Whilst i got the short version of the experience, I actually felt he killed me off in every way except physically…the only thing your psycho invested in was after you die…well it sends chills through me and I guarantee I would dedicate every fibre of my being to surviving and out witting that, and I’m so priviledged to be even talking to you, you are a hero in your own lifetime…you could be dead…. I want to spend time thinking of the people who did die at the hands of these creeps… my heart goes out to them, I would do anything to turn back time and stop this happening…its unbearable to me that someone innocent can be destroyed by this…but look at society…hardley even notices….
ErinB
yes its the war one I want…the respect and change..my fantasy is he “gets it” finally and he falls on his knees and cries….he admits every crime and turns around, he pays me back and finally gives me respect…and I am the woman who touched his soul…ha ha ha ha well I think I will replace that with patience and healing and trust that life will get him…I dont have to (I’m 50…I’m tired…All I wanted was a nice guy)
oxdrover
I will never get “justice” okay well then I can surrender instead…only because I am on this site and I have you guys to help me….I am just living here at the moment and finding it within myself to listen to you…and I actually feel comforted for the first time…the jagged pain is softening and the shock is thawing out…huge anger yes but if I just love myself and stay here and listen then maybe i can stay out of further trouble…
your son murdered a woman….well what can I say…just blown away…and he still cannot find it within himself to admit any responsibility? what does it take….how have we as a society enabled this to happen…something has to change.
Bopeep
money is not a problem till you do not have any….I know it. support is so crucial, and if its gone you must be so lonely…just stay and shut up? 49? you have the rest of your life! at least when we are here living through it there are things we can do….how do you know you will be able to anything when you die? and who says your s/p wont be there??? we are evolving and God created psychopaths as the very negativity that we need to turn around….just my opinion! no offence intended…my heart breaks for you and I wish you could find a way to freedom this lifetime so you deal with it..and we should be able to help you do it…
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 4:17pm
Easy says:
Knowledge is Power
The Truth will set You Free, after it Piisses you off
There is a Bigger Picture
ASPD
Please explore this link and If you feel that you can help, send it to everyone ! Thanks
http://www.wanttoknow.info/
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 4:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear BoPeep,
Your post made me weep for your pain, and your feeling so TRAPPED by finances and four children. But I do have some idea of how you feel. When I was married before, my divorce was the divorce from HELL, he ended up leaving me with (1) a 10 year old pick up truck with a plain camper shell on the back, (2) two sons ages 8 and 9 (3) a cat (4) $350 (5) several changes of clothing for each of us. That was the ENTIRETY of my resources and I was 34 years old. I had been a stay at home mom most of the time, or just worked part time, and really had no skills that were salable much above subsistence level.
My sons and I lived in public parks and camp grounds for that summer, and during the time in early May when he left and fall when school started, I managed to find a place to live with a friend termporarily, enroll in college, find a RUN DOWN house to rent and made a deal with the land lord to fix it up if he would not raise the rent on me for the rest of my college time (we both stuck to it) and enrolled in college, started school, got VERY minimal child support, started a network of single parents (both male and female–people I met at school, church etc) and we arranged barter systems to help each other out with child care, car care, house work, tutoring, etc because NONE us had any money. I planted a garden the next spring in my yard and raised a good deal of our food (the kids helped out) started a house cleanign service with another non-traditional student, and cleaned houses between classes….wrote and sold magazine articles, and managed to survive the next 4 years one day at a time.
Once I “invested” the last $1.37 I had to my name in a poker game with some guys at a birthday party (they were drinking and I wasn’t) and that night I left there with about $50 in my purse—and I would have stayed longer and gotten more but my date that night told me if we didn’t leave then, he would have to “fight our way out th edoor if you take any more of their money.” BUT I NEEDED THE MONEY and that $50 bought groceries and gas I needed.
I realize I was somewhat younger than you are now, but you know…two years ago I left it all to go live in a small RV trailer not knowing if I would ever return here to my home because of the psychopaths and I found out that I could still DO IT, and make whatever financial adjustments I had to make in order to LIVE IN PEACE. If it meant living in a TENT and eating out of a dumpster, I would gladly take the tent and peace over a palace without PEACE.
Not that I am criticising your choices, I don’t mean that at all. We ALL MAKE OUR OWN CHOICES, TRADE OFFS for what we will “pay” for what we “get”—-I too believe that there is a heaven and a hell after death…but there are also HELLS-ON-EARTH here too, and I will AVOID that emotional hell on earth by whatever method is necessary. Poverty ain’t all that bad when you have PEACE. I live well below the official “poverty” level now as far as income is concerned, yet I have EVERYTHING in the world I need. I have clothing (Thank you, God for Goodwill and yard sales) I have food (i produce some of it myself in a small garden and meat) I have reasonably good health for my age, and I have people who love me, and I have a heavenly Father who loves me and provides for me just as he does the lilies of the field and the sparrows, and I TRUST in Him to give me the strength I need to endure whatever comes.\
I have been financially rich and I have been essentially homeless and broke, but I am determined to be emotionally FREE of the ABUSERS. I have the determination because I no longer give a flip about “financial security” when it means I have to exchange my PEACE for that. But each of us has to make our own decisions in life about what we will endure for what result. Just like when you go to work and the job is miserable but pays extremely well. Others might have a job that pays very poorly but they enjoy it, so each of these people has a choice and their choice is their own.
I’ve had jobs I HATED and I stayed for a while because I NEEDED the money, and there was no other job in sight. I have left other jobs that payed VERY well because I hated it and the money didn’t mean anything as there was a lower paying but nicer job available. So your decision depends on a lot of other factors.
Take heart and don’t narrow your options completely. In the meantime, stay here and blog and learn, read and learn, and know that your pain is validated. Many people here have “stayed” for some time feeling that they couldn’t leave for one reason or another. Many times they found out that the pain of staying wasn’t worth the cost and that leaving wasn’t as painful as they had thought it would be. Just keep your options open. I am 62 and I left home (again) at 60. (((hugs))) and my prayers.
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 6:00pm
bopeep says:
Thank you Oxy….WOW! I guess one has to be” there” at the breaking point and I just havent hopped that fence yet…but I am here and will continue..
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 6:25pm
bopeep says:
Had to leave S/P came near…yes..this is no way to live. I do dream of MY day when I live in peace…God Bless us all…bp
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 6:32pm
OxDrover says:
Dear BoPeep,
I do know making the decision to leave is a monumentual one, and I had to give up everything I had worked for for the last 25 years…I have since been able to return to my home in RELATIVE safety, but still live with CAUTION.
I don’t know how old your children are, and how your P gets along with them, etc. but I can guarentee that living with him won’t do them any good turn. It also may be that he will use the kids as a battering ram to hurt you, that is a frequent trick of the psychopaths if you discard them.
I DO know that FOR ME, the price was TOO high to continue to play “let’s pretend we are a nice normal family” when in fact we were ANYTHING BUT! My youngest biological child is a full blown psychopath in prison for murder, and at one point the ONLY family I had supporting me was my adopted son. My oldest biological son has now (after his P-wife and her P-BF tried to kill him) come around to realize that I was not out to make his life miserable and that his wife was indeed DANGEROUS (more so than even I knew). So at least I have salvaged two of my three sons. There was no guarentee that any of us can end up with ANY family though, sometimes we lose even that, but still I don’t think the price is too high to get PEACE and CALM in our lives.
It turns out that those we “lose” are generally either not worth keeping in the first place, or they are just duped by the Ps and we cannot make them see the truth because it is too painful for them to accept it and they stay in denial.
DO stay around here, please. There is so much great information and support here. This place saved my sanity if not my life! (((hugs))) and always prayers
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Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 9:27pm
Easy says:
Before you get a Flu shot check this out ! You will notice a N word used that we use here all the time! Spread the Information as you will not see this on TV. except in the comercials!
http://www.wanttoknow.info/summaries
Under Health, The title should have been WEALTH
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Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 10:28am
banana says:
Why would someone supossedly well-meaning say, “As long as this a88hole is in your life you will never have any friends or reationships, theyw ill not want to deal with him.”
I asked this “friend” of mine and she said “Its the truth, you are so used to people telling you what you want to hear.”
I beg to differ, I take the construction criticism well. I may not apply it the next day, but I take it in and mull it around, mix with other advice and use it when I can or when the situation begs.
But this, this comment I don’t get…it’s like I chose to marry a S/P!!!!
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Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 9:17pm
shabbychic says:
banana… I suppose “well-meaning” would be the key words here. My sister gives me advice and I feel like she is bashing me in the head. They just don’t get it. I think the part about “you are so used to people telling you what you want to hear” is a strange thing to say, that is really out in left field! All in all it sounds like a very mean thing to say, but I don’t really know all the circumstances involved.
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Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 11:46pm
ANewLily says:
Banana, I can give you one answer from my own experience. This person was trying to warn you of a possible consequence of your decision to stay with him. I sure wish someone had warned me like that. I only heard of this warning AFTER I had left and people apologized for not tellling me sooner what they thought. I can’t tell you how many people told me “after the fact” that they had always liked me but their husbands would have nothing to do with him. But, I sure did wonder why we were rarely invited to weddings or other gatherings that included couples!!!!!!
I would assume this person is well-meaning friend. She was being brave enough to tell you what she knew you didn’t want to hear.
I would hazard a guess that if you are still with him, you are still in the FOG and probably can’t hear what is really going on yet. That is NO reflection on you or any fault of yours. It’s just the condition these “bad guys” put us in to keep us confused and controlled. Often it takes distance from them to have the “light” turn on. It did for me. Can you get away for a few days — 3 nights at a hotel or something — to sort things out with a clearer mind?
As far as your taking this last comment as an accusation that it was your fault you “chose” to marry him. Is it because you might have some unwarranted guilt that it is your fault you chose him? I ask because I went through that stage.
However, we DIDN’T chose them. They chose US because they wanted our goodness for themselves. Pure and simple.
I pray I have not been too bold to say these things. My heart is breaking for you — because I’ve “been there, done that.”
Love and blessings to you!!!
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Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 12:31am
ANewLily says:
Shabbychic, we must have both been typing a response to Banana at the same time.
I sure didn’t mean to counter your opinion! Banana’s “friend” may indeed have just been being nasty or mean.
What I wrote is just my own experience concerning her questions. I guess I’m reminded that perceptions are indiviual and usually are not right or wrong.
What do you think?
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Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 1:37am
ErinBrockovich says:
Bananna:
I don’t think this friend is doing you an injustice by telling you this.
I do believe it’s the god honest 100% truth that only she is willing to step up and say.
It’s true…..no one like drama, conflict…..(Aside from S’s)….but normal people….think of the people in your life that always have a problem…..ou just can’t get away from it.
Human nature states that people do disappear from our drama filled S lives when they have had enough. They are no longer interested and WE are NOT doing anything about it.
Even when we do leave, people drop like flies.
People don’t wish to be involved. It tends to be long term.
When i was sick, and the S wasn’t around….support came from far and wide…….the minute the S showed back up…..My phone stopped ringing and door stopped knocking…..
No one wanted to be around the S. It was uncanny how this worked…..
I needed support and help, as I was ‘hostage’ in my home and body……but it was just too much, too stressful for anyone to take, so they all allowed themselves to believe teh S was taking care of me.
Not the case……BUT…..none the less…..it’s just human nature…..
No explanation, no changing it……
We will lose friends if we have chaotic and drama filled relationships……WE tend to live in a fantasy and think others dont see it….but they DO!
My BEST FRIEND, watched all 28 years of my bad decisions with the S…….she remained my friend, but it was apparant at certain times in our relationship that she pulled away…..she would tell me over and over….he’s not going to change, Are you going to wait until your 60 and then see it? I heard it for YEARS… I did hear it…..but I hoped ’she didn’t know him like I DID”……
One day……I heard her words and they meant something….I heard them verbatum…….
She was right……..I am so glad she stuck with me, but I know it was so hard for her to watch the abuse and my denial.
In fact, during the times when I would call her and say…..I’d had enought….
she would say back…..no you haven’t…..your not going to leave him…..
She says now….it was a challenge.
Now and only now is she convinced, there is no going back!
But…..I believe your friend is not being mean to you……I think they are being a true friend and I would heed the advice.
It’s the truth as I have lived it.
Good luck…..
XXOO
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Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 4:47am
ErinBrockovich says:
Oh yeah…..
What NewLily said was so true…..
People said to me (after the fact) the same thing….
We really like you erin, but your husband just creeped us out.
All the while, I thought everyone LOVED him! That was sure the appearance they gave.
I have heard all sorts of stories about what poeple thought or saw him do……and no one told me……
BUT…..I’m pretty sure if they had of told me, I would have defended him like I always did…..they probably knew this…..and kept quiet.
Again…..not to get involved……not to make waves….etc….
I had so many people in the past 3 years tell me about his ‘other lifestyle’, and say…..WE THOUGHT YOU KNEW……
UH, NO…..I had no idea!!!!
But yes…..your friends do disappear, no couples adventures/dinners/gatherings……because no one wants to be dominated by the S’s.
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Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 4:58am