The nature of the “abusive personality”
PDF Unfortunately clinicians and researchers often tend to interact with a specific segment of our society and to develop their own ways of describing the problems of the people they work with. For example, there are professionals who work with clients who have “personality disorders”, there are professionals who work with criminals in the justice system and there are professionals who work with perpetrators of domestic abuse/violence.
Each of these three groups of professionals has their own lingo for describing very similar people with very similar patterns of behavior. Each group also has a different “theoretical orientation” or view of the problems of humanity.
Because those who work with family abusers often lack experience with sociopaths in other settings they do not know that family abusers are sociopaths.
Where does that leave you, a victim or family member of a disordered, abusive individual?
To spare you the task of sorting through these three distinct ways of looking at the person who created havoc in your life, with the help of The Abusive Personality, I will present here more on the work of Dr. Dutton a psychologist who understand the personality profile of abusers.
First of all, I can say with confidence that individuals who abuse and victimize lovers, friends and family members are personality disordered. As Dr. Dutton points out on page 8 of The Abusive Personality, “Because IPV (intimate partner violence) occurs in a minority of relationships it cannot be explained by social norms. In fact, normative acceptance of IPV is low in North American populations. .. When people act in a chronically dysfunctional manner that violates the norms of their culture, their behavior is attributable to a personality disorder.”
Dr. Dutton makes a compelling argument that the “abusive personality” stems from what is known as borderline personality organization. According to psychoanalyst Otto Kernberg, adult and adolescent patients with antisocial personality possess an underlying borderline personality organization. Attachment theorists also suggests an association between borderline personality disorder and antisocial behavior or even antisocial personality disorder. Dr. Dutton acknowledges that many perpetrators are violent and antisocial outside the family and many appear to completely lack empathy and remorse. All chronic perpetrators have an extreme inability to empathize with their victims and seem to only express remorse as a means of maintaining the relationship. These emotional deficits are considered to be diagnostic of sociopathy.
According to Dr. Dutton, both male and female abusers experience cyclical changes in personality that relate to abuse perpetration. These cycles, have interfered with understanding the personality of abusers. The cycles happen because abusers experience a great deal of negative emotion and they blame this negative emotion on those closest to them. After they “blow off steam” by abusing loved ones, they experience a temporary relief from these negative emotions. During the time they “feel better” they may seem like model spouses and parents.
In my opinion, there are four other characteristics of men and women who perpetrate partner/family abuse that have interfered with our understanding that these abusers are psychopathic and are truly sociopaths. These are:
1. The degree to which they cling to those whom they abuse.
2. Their high level of anxiety and other negative emotions.
3. Lack of abuse of strangers and non-family members.
4. Lack of criminal arrest for other offenses.
I want to address each of these characteristics by asking then answering the related questions people have asked me over the years.
Question #1 Does the fact that my ______________ keeps calling and doesn’t want to lose me mean that deep down he/she really loves me?
Answer#1 NO! Although sociopaths are not capable of love they are very social and most often want to count themselves in as part of a family, extended family and friendship network. If they are alone how will they be able to do what they do best which is abuse and control people? Also if they are alone, how can they use people to get the other things they want. Especially as sociopaths get older and their ability to charm others declines they tend to want to stick with those they have taken advantage of in the past.
Question #2 My poor _________ is just depressed/anxious/angry about being mistreated and abused as a child. Won’t my love and reassurance help him/her get over it?
Answer #2 NO! If your______ has a long standing pattern of abusing you and/or other family members it means something very important so listen. It means he or she equates abuse with being in a relationship, just like you equate love and caring with being in a relationship. Since that is true, your love will only make the person more abusive.
Question#3 My ___________ only abuses me and no one else so it must be my fault. Right?
Answer #3 NO! Your __________ would abuse others if he/she thought he/she could get away with it and will abuse anyone else he/she feels close ties with. An intimate relationship brings out abusive behavior in people who have a borderline personality organization.
Question#4 My _____________ has never been arrested can he/she still be a sociopath?
Answer #4 YES! Antisocial behavior is behavior that hurts other people. When this hurtful behavior is perpetrated by someone who lacks empathy or remorse it reflects psychopathy/sociopathy.
In summary, I recommend that all mental health professionals who work with the victims and family members of sociopaths read Dr. Dutton’s book The Abusive Personality. I also recommend another of Dr. Dutton’s books, The Batterer a Psychological Profile for victims of domestic violence. Order it through Amazon today with these links:
The Abusive Personality
The Batterer a Psychological Profile
Does anyone want me to try to explain what “borderline personality organization” is?
Is there anyone who still has trouble accepting that partner abusers are sociopaths?
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
skylar says:
Hey guys, I didn’t say redneck, I said hillbillies.
Also, I didn’t say being a hillbilly was bad, only that being a racist hillbilly doesn’t seem to be an exemplary way of life to me. Please re-read my post above, you will see.
I think that perhaps the word hillbilly is a trigger for some people and they automatically interchange it with the word redneck. Not the same at all. Rednecks are all men, hillbillies can be women – simple folk who live in the country.
My own xP is a chameleon. He was born a hillbilly but he became, a street kid in the city at age 12, surviving by playing guitar in the bars with his band and by conning people. For a time he lived in the mountains and clubbed spawning salmon in the streams so that he could eat.
His family is mostly farmers and welders and road workers. Only one graduated high school AFAIK. They all use derogatory terms for people of any color, blacks, browns, native americans, muslims whatever. So does he. But he is not a hillbilly, he is anything that it suits him to be at the moment. In fact, I believe he hates hillbillies too because he speaks of them in deragatory terms as well.
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MariaLisa says:
oxy
i think sociopaths do things OFF in every type of society. they dont fit into ANY system in their heads, they only adjust or fake adjustment to the point it benefits them. Right?
I responded to someone who used the term racist redneck. Ofcourse its a stereotype. It just happened to fit him 100%. I have met the most amazingly wonderful social and welcoming people from those states. HE is just so augh!!! so bad. He always boasts about how he loved shooting things when he was young there, that those states are’ lawless’, those are his words. Im from Europe I have never seen a gun in my entire life. Anywho he loved watching dumb people harm themselves. So weird that never dawned on me before, he LOOKED SO harmless, but when you think of it its quite weird to like rednecks cause theyre so lawless and dumb ( in his mind) right. He felt he was ofcourse smarter than anyone else. He called himself a redneck, but a genius one. Literally…
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OxDrover says:
Dear Blogger,
Diabetes Type II (a part of what is now called “metabolilc syndrome”) is the same way—nature (genetics) + environment= metabolic syndrome which, untreated, causes premature death.
Just as training (environment) and/or abuse can change the “temperment” of a dog to some extent, or a cat, or anything else living with a reasonable brain, I think it takes BOTH to mold us (humans) into the forms we take both physically and emotionally/mentally.
Inseresteringly, I read a study done many years ago when iwas in school, that starving a baby before it is born will produce a mentally retarded child. If a female, however, is starved before birth, her offspring will also be retarded for 3 generations, even if she was given adequate nutrition after birth and her babies were also given adequate nutrition.
The male child who was retarded because of lack of nutrition, however, if he is mated with a normal individual will produce normal offspring.
The huge numbers ofg people in the world who do not have adequate prenatal nutrition—and sometimes even in this country due to the eating habits and preferences of the teenaged mothers, themselves little more than children in many cases—I think are problematic for society as a whole.
Sometimes intelligence can overcome psychopathic traits or mental illness enough that the person does not become a violent member of society, but can be “socialized”—they may still be a psychopath or have a mental illness, but combined with the lack of intelligence due to prenatal starvation, low or no education, poverty, etc. their “problems” become worse and their behavior more of a blot on society as a whole.
Intelligence, even superior intelligence, such as my son has, doesn’t mean that the psychopath will “overcome” their traits or disorders or even not become violently criminal. I do believe however, that the more intelligent (generally) a psychopath is, and the more educated, the less likely they are to be “robbing liquor” stores or to live a parasitic lifestyle.
While I know quite a few people I consider psychopaths who are well educated, bright and function in society in a way that their careers as physicians, lawyers, and even educators, does some good for society and keeps them out of the prison system (for the most part) the people I know who I think are psychopaths who are not so bright, not educated well, have few if any job skills, etc. are much more apt to behave in ways that land them in prison that the brighter psychopaths.
For a long time, it seems to me, our society seemed to believe that poverty (alone) caused domestic violence, low motivation, discrimination, etc. but it seems to me that domestic violence, lack of motivation, psychopathy, and so on create the poverty which is then blamed for those people behaving in violent and anti-social ways.
As more and more children who are adopted are coming from psychopathic mothers and fathers (most other unwed parents keeping their children) and those children from such back grounds are showing up with a MUCH HIGHER than average rate of “conduct disorder” and eventually psychopathic and criminal behavior, I think the tide of “common sense” is turning somewhat to see that there are some genetic components to the problems that cause anti-social behavior, which behavior, in turn, causes poverty, low intellect and lack of desire for education.
The old phrase “poor white trash” is another stereotypical phrase to describe what is now called “red neck” by many. However, they are not trash because they are poor, but poor because they are “trash.” In my community there were and are many poor people, people without even the ability to read or write enough to sign their name, but these people are NOT trash, not considered trash by the community, but respected for their moral compasses and for their work eithic. There are others here who have quite a bit of money but ARE “trash” because of their behavior, lack of moral compasses, and “trashy” behavior. With the influx of the natural gas drillilng in this area, it is also quite funny at times to see what the “poor white trash” do when they become RICH white trash! LOL
It is also interesting to note the different behavior when the poor people who have little education but good moral compasses do when they start getting significant royalties for the gas under their land. The biggest difference in those good people’s lives in having money and not having money is the different amounts they give to the church, and maybe they buy a new truck, but they don’t start walking around the community with their noses in the air and “bling” on their necks. LOL
“
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MariaLisa says:
whats the difference between a redneck or a hillbilly ( he used those two interchangeably btw)?
skylar our ex could very well be the same…
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OxDrover says:
Dear MariaLisa,
Psychopaths usually find some group to “look down on” whether it is “dumb” whites/blacks/browns.
I was raised where hunting was common, and had been forever. I was raised around guns that were TOOLs not just weapons. Your psychopath’s admiration for people who kill and hurt things just for the fun of it or are “lawless” shows that he feels that those things ar e”fun”—it isn’t quite as “lawless” as he might think “out west.” Or as he might wish!
Yes, there are people who use a gun to hurt others, or to rob or kill, but there are people who use poison, knives, or stones to hurt others as well. A gun itself is not a bad thing, it is th eperson holding it that decides whether it is used to hurt for fun, or to secure meat, or to kill or injure, or to protect yourself. Just as a pencil is not responsible for the words it writes, neither is the gun responsible for how it is used or misused.
I did not take offense at your term “racist redneck” because I know that term is often used both here and over seas. Psychopaths are the worst racists because they have to find some group that they can belittle to make themselves seem superior. (((hugs))))
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skylar says:
Maria Lisa
redneck is a guy with a rifle and a truck that likes to shoot things, animate or inanimate and thinks his own opinion is all that matters. He is ignorant no matter how much education or money he has. His problem is hidden low self-esteem.
I think the rifle and truck are necessary to be called a redneck because no redneck could possibly continue to live if he didn’t have both.
hillbilly is someone who lives in the country and likes simple thiings. You can choose to live life as a hillbilly. A hillbilly is not pretentious. Hillbillies don’t care about other people’s “high falutin’ ways” (did I spell “falutin” correctly?)
The man you described sounds like a P, more than a redneck.
I hope I didn’t offend any truck drivers/gun owners, I own a truck too. LOL. But I think y’all know what I mean.
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MariaLisa says:
Thanks Oxy and I totally agree with you. My ex was just such an indescribable loser. Wat can I say.
Skylar
“I think the rifle and truck are necessary to be called a redneck because no redneck could possibly continue to live if he didn’t have both.”
OMG how that sentence made me burst out laughing!! you have a fine sense of humor. Its quite dry (is that how you call it in American aswell?)
I could actually say some funny things here but Im afraid if anyone who knows him ever comes on here it would just be TOO easy to tell Im talking about him ( I think its already to easy).
Anywho what I wanted to say is I would highly respect people who like the simple things in life, anywhere on this planet. And working in an agricultural business is highly respectful in my opinion aswell. Nature and the countryside are so amazing, so sad some lunatics out there make it unsafe.
I have one question just for general knowledge. Georgia is a redneck state (or southern state), but what about texas or say west virginia. I mean texas is southern and cowboyish ofcourse yet not poor at all. West Virginia is poor yet not southern…
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Easy says:
We all know or some of us do how un reliable are the folks who want to diagnose folks are before we pass judgement on a fellow human being remember that we all are guilty of the same behaviors, it is just a mater of extanint and how we choose to view the world!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....annel_page
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OxDrover says:
Skylar,
LOL–I beg your pardon, while there are some who define “red neck” and “hill billy” as two different things, as you do, I am proud to be a red neck, I own 4 trucks and a bunch of guns! I am not ignorant, though I do have an education, and I don’t kill things for fun—I do live a “simple” life, by choice, but I do have indoor plumbing, electric lights, a computer and a toothbrush! LOL
The point is, though, that like Easy says, we all have our prejudices and we DO “profile” people by many things, age, race, sex, dress, cleanliness, speech patterns, and location.
I doubt if there are any of us who walkign along at midnight in a “down town” neighborhood in any large city would not profile a group of young black men dressed in bandanas with their pants hanging nearly to their knees who were following us chanting rap music as “dangerous” even though these young men might have been to a play rehearsal.
Profiling predators, or sizing up someone as ‘dangerous or not dangerous” is how humans have survived for eons! It is a natural instinct, I think.
People from different “tribes” dressed differently, cut their hair differently, had different facial features and different skin colors and I think we are programmed to be suspicious of anyone who is “different” than we are in any manner of dress, facilal features, skin color, language etc. Noting these differences and having an “us” (our tribe) vs. “them” (anyone else) mentality was what kept people safer than if they had opened up too quickly to strangers whose intentions they did not know.
While in order for a group to live together fairly peacefully, there had to be rules within the tribe that were enforced of how to treat others. However, people who were not “our tribe” that we did not know, were not treated the same as “us” (our tribe) so it made it “okay” to steal from them, kill them and take their food/land etc. because “all of ‘them”" were “not as good as us” maybe we even thought them not human so it was OK to treat them like animals.
This catagorizing of all people with X characteristic as bad made it easier than having to make a decision about a single person, we could just “lump” them with the other people who had x characteristic and we “knew” that they were all bad, so therefore we didn’t have to make a decision (therefore we didn’t have anxiety about making a wrong decision) but could just lump “them all together.”
Part of our problem I think today with US (those that have been victimized by psychopaths) is that we have gotten TOO far away from “catagorizing” people, TOO open hearted, too non-discriminatory….we many times no longer look at a person’s outward appearance and draw any conclusions from it. No job? Well, he is black so he can’t get one, it’s not his fault. No car, no home? Well, his parents were abusive of him., it’s not his fault. Gets mad and hurts people, well, that;’s not his fault either, because it is what he learned at home. Does drugs and lies? Well, that’s not his fault either, it is society’s fault, it is our culture.
But instead of profiling GROUPS, we need to PROFILE INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR, and hold people accountable for their actions.
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skylar says:
well, Oxy, if you insist…!
that was just my definition of RN vs. Hillbilly, obviously there isn’t just one. To me a RN is a man not a woman because there has to be lots of testosterone involved. I would categorize you as a Country Gal, if I may be permitted.
Not being a RN or Hillbilly (by my own definition) I have to have my own way of analyzing, categorizing, verbalizing what I mean.
You are exactly right about passing judgement – I don’t do that enough.
Everyone on LF might think that I’m doing just that when I categorize people, but really I’m just describing. The fact is I’m WAY TOO accepting of everyone and everyone’s behavior even the bad stuff.
When my xp’s REDNECK brother came up and made non-stop racist comments, I never said a word. I just thought, “well, he doesn’t mean it in a bad way. I also categorize people but still respect everyone and therefore, I’m sure he does too. I’m sure he is a nice person. Look how nice his wife and kids are…etc…” Those were my thoughts.
Perhaps its because I find every type of person interesting and amusing. I WAS the glue in my N family, I get along with everyone. Never criticizing always accepting. If you’ve read my posts, you know I just make excuses for everyone’s bad behavior. They don’t even need to make their own for me. LOL.
So anyway, we need to put people in groups so that we can think about them, describe them, but we all belong to more than just one group. Like you said, the only group you don’t want to belong to is the P group! And we all know that P’s are only good for one thing:
AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO BE.
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MariaLisa says:
Skylar (and Oxy)
Thats exactly how I felt too. His comments were so out there I didnt even feel like adressing em. that would insult my intellect is what i thought.
No redneck would survive in europe: the cars are too tiny here and too many vegetarians, plus no guns, and no tobacho chewing ( or am I watching too many movies!!!) WHAHAH im only joking ofcourse.
i love people in general, all kinds of people, and like you Skylar I enjoy describing people and hear what other people have to say too. no one here is downright racist, un-nuanced or anything like my ex was. i couldnt understand it then, I do now. When you categorically trash entire races or nations you just dont have a loving spirit OR humor. And it is not to be taken lightly. Its says something about that persons character. Unfortunately.
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hummingbird06 says:
What’s the difference between a Redneck and a Psychopath?
A Redneck has a rifle and a truck and he’s proud of it…
A Psychopath steals a rifle from a truck and he’s proud of it…
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MariaLisa says:
what? that was never the question…
we were comparing the term hillbilly to redneck.
sociopathy is a disorder…
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witsend says:
Hope everyone here in the states had a nice holiday weekend. I actually had some plans for today!
Some of my friends came from Chicago for a visit and my friends and I went to my oldest sons house for the day and he lives in a quaint small town right on the lake. The weather was perfect today so we had a very nice visit. And a nice relaxing day.
Tomorrow is the first day of school…..And my gut is already tied in knots as school brings on ALOT of stress at our house. Last year school was an absolute nightmare….And I am hoping for the best but also preparing for the worst.
I am considering contacting the truant officer ahead of time, to find out what the laws are about school BEFORE the problem arises!
My son has befriended over the summer a few girls that are older than him (18 years old) and graduated from high school last year. They are taking a few collage classes this year at local community collage and that means that my son will have friends that are not IN school at the “set time” of his normal high school friends. He has never had friends in his circle before that weren’t in school during the same hours he was….So I am anticipating this as a problem from what I have seen this past summer.
As unpredictable as my son can be at times I am getting better at occasionally being able to see the next thing that will occur without being blindsided all the time…..
I am not sure of this is a good thing or a bad thing but at least I find sometimes I am better prepared to deal with “whatever” it when I have to.
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hummingbird06 says:
Marialisa, It was a joke…ya know…like what’s the difference between…blah blah blah….I guess my lame attempt at being funny
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skylar says:
hummingbird,
LOL! that was a good joke, I liked it.
MariaLisa,
there is no way that you didn’t get that…
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MariaLisa says:
Dear evevrybody, its almost morning here, Ive been laying awake all night long. Sometimes crying, sometimes staring into blankness. Im appalled with the superficiality of the world. Its my ex’ influence ofcourse. I cannot come to terms with the fact that someone who has been so profound in describing his morals, in making me feel such a strong soul connections, to have proven himself to be such a phony and liar. It has shattered my belief in the world. Ofcourse. And ofcourse these are exactly the times you need to hold your faith tight ( Im not specifically meaning a God here, but anyone’s personal belief system), but Im struggling with it like never before. Especially just the topic of love. Looking at myself from a distance I feel like this girl needs to quit being so serious ( I didnt even get the joke above anymore, and I used to be a hoot) and have some fun like every girl my age. I feel like there is something so in my way. And it confuses me cause my therapist thinks that after a few months I should just move on. And my sociopathic ex, whom Ive befriended with, also. And she’s been through somewhat similar experiences. So it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me. BUt on the other hand I feel like I shouldnt be apologizing for being sensitive enough to care and to be shaken beyond belief about the betrayal on so many levels Ive been put through ( I stepped out the moment I found out the sickness). The trigger for all these raw emotions is my ex ex, she told me tonight she had a fling with someone who is married and who has 2 small children, one is a newborn. She hardly dared to tell me cause of all we had been through. I therefore was ofcourse zero judgemental, although I urged her to look at this realistically and think of keeping her sense of self worth. She thinks he might be unhappy in his marriage and might divorce. I know I know, I ofcourse think the same: thats utterly irrational and gives men like that a playing field I dread them have. My problem is also tht this man is highly respected in his community. It just gives such a blow each time to my sense of trust for people. Am I the only one that believes in making something special and dedicate oneself truly? I know this is a fast world, but how can all these people sleep at night and have fun and me IM lying here, uncapable of anything at this point. I sound pathetic but its how I feel right now. Im usually pretty tough, but the world seems to be the most superficial place right now and in order to live in it I feel I should give up everything I believe in and held so high until my sociopathic ex just took my belief system, became it and then raped it.
I would be so immensely grateful if someone could shed a light on this. Thank you sooo much. Hugs…
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hummingbird06 says:
MariaLisa,
My dear sweet marialisa…You will notice how often I joke and haha, but it is to push aside the tears that I feel, like you, constantly, on the verge of shedding. Yes these S/P’s have taken something from us… an innocence…a trust…a belief in the general goodness of mankind. I am a woman of the Christian faith, and I will admit that, yes, even my faith has been shaken…not just by him ,but by the evil I seem to notice more and more around me like Oxy compared to the “poodles”.
I find myself sitting in church looking at a woman whose husband is no longer by her side, but instead living with his lover…the woman he left her and his family for….or the heartbroken parents who try to hold their heads up high without their son who was just arrested for possessing child pornography. I can’t help but look around and wonder…who else? who else in these pews is fooling everyone but God?
Part of my belief system tells me that it is no surprise we are in “end times” relatively speaking…and that Satan is working overtime…I guess what I previously thought to be those fulfilling biblical prophecy are actually psychopaths. Ironically, the Bible itself practically CONTAINS the S/P checklist and warns us to stay away from them!
I am trying to hang on to some basic beliefs here…that God KNOWS what he’s doing! …not only with me…but with his world…And, that GOD will judge accordingly…as much as I would like to run over my XP with my car or poke his eyes out with forks, I wouldn’t because I have a CONSCIENCE for one, and because I know that he will get what he deserves from God Himself. And, that GOODNESS will prevail in the end…it may seem like darkness is at every turn, but Evil is no match for God, Satan is no match for God.
I believe prayer is the greatest and most powerful weapon we have…it is our email to Heaven…our Godmail…it may not be answered the way we want, or when we want, but it will be answered in the best possible way. God will break our legs if that’s what it takes to get us on our knees…sometimes he allows things in our lives simply to bring us TO Him…to depend on Him.
We have all been hurt, devastated, and changed forever by the evil ones that brought us to LF…but we WILL learn from it…be better for it…and move on with our lives with faith that in the end Goodness always wins
I hope this helps encourage you….XXOO
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MariaLisa says:
Warm embrace to you Hummingbird…
XOXOXO
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skylar says:
Hi MariaLisa,
I don’t sleep either. had the wierdest, most colorful dreams, shoulda written them down. Sorry you feel so bad, I know exactly what you mean.
I think what saves me is curiosity.
I remember one time, having a fight with the P, crying, sobbing, devastated over something. He just sat there cold as ice. I felt like I’d rather be dead at that moment, and I realized that I had only felt that way in his presence. Nobody and nothing, no other event or person had ever made me feel that way.
Then, in the middle of my devastated emotions, I thought: “interesting. how interesting. he is the source of my pain. a pain like I’ve never known from any other source. How interesting. How does he do it?” Momentarily my focus moved away from my pain to curiosity about my pain. This actually reduced my pain to relatively low levels and kept it there.
So I told him, “you are the only person or thing that has ever made me wish I wasn’t alive, didn’t exist!” I expected some kind of compassion. NOTHING.
Then I told him, “YOU caused your ex-gf to kill herself, YOU were the reason she committed suicide. I know that now. It is what you did and you’re doing it to me.”
He blew up. He raged. He said, “How dare you? How dare you speak of my good friend who died? You apologize to me right now. You will apologize to me, blah blah blah… ”
Raged for so long that I eventually apologized to shut him up. I think that was the day I really stopped loving him even as a friend.
So since I found out about the Ps, thanks to Divine intervention, my curiosity has been peeked even more. Yes, I’m still devastated, but I’m also extremely intrigued.
When I’m thinking about how interesting this personality disorder is and how it sheds light on so many other aspects of our world, I don’t feel as much pain. I’m grateful that now I see an additional dimension to the events around me. Things aren’t so confusing anymore. Only my emotions are. But hopefully, I’ll get some information that will shed light on that too. Ironically, all the info I’ve read on narcissism, makes me understand my P and his motivations but it doesn’t shed any light on how I feel or what to do about it.
I guess that’s the difference between the cookie-cutter personality of the narissist and the more complex personality of a fully formed human being, it’s harder to understand the fully formed human.
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skylar says:
MariaLisa,
I also second everything Hummingbird said.
Also, you might pray to Saint Michael the Archangel. He has provided me with protection since day 1, but also inspiration. The prayers to Saint Michael reveal how to fight evil, since it is Saint Michael that banished Lucifer from heaven. The prayers are amazing even if you aren’t Catholic, (I’m not sure which religions think it’s ok to pray to the angels and saints for intercession – I think some don’t.)
The prayers describe the traits of St. Michael. It’s amazing, you might imagine him as superman defeating the devil, but it is Saint Michael as BORING CLARK KENT, that defeated the devil because he is HUMBLE AND OBEDIENT TO GOD. Remember Clark Kent was not prideful, he was meek. Also, the litany of humility is powerful against evil because evil is narcissism, which preys on your ego and pride.
http://www.2heartsnetwork.org/Michael.htm
http://www.rc.net/wcc/humility.htm
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MariaLisa says:
Aw Skylar thank you. So sweet. It really helps to be in contact with other caring individuals like on here. I try to surround myself with caring people as much as possible. I must be honest and say I am not religious in the strict sense. So praying to an angel is just to foreign for me ( although I did check out the sites you gave and I was inspired), I feel like I am a spiritual being and until I met my sociopath I honestly felt all men were essentially good, just cluttered along the way so to speak. Meaning this new found evil truly shook my entire worldview. I just fnisihed the sociopath next door and I like how the writer focusses certainly at the end on the good messages, like the fact that soulful people are a ridiculous large majority and such and how good always wins from the bad. I am however afraid of where this world is going to Materialism ( I think capitalism, meaning healthy growth is good), but materialism is not and also the fact life has gotten so fast so advanced that people lose touch with themselves to the point that they dont even know they hurt themselves and eachother is tough. People talk about things that they dont put into practise anymore. Life sometimes seems too superficial and demanding to do so for a lot of people. I love how I can come here and ask for help Its something I seem uncapable of doing outside of this venue. I tend to try to lift others up and be strong. Which is great but sometimes lonely. Im sure a lot of you know cause it may have been the very characteristic that drew the sociopath to us. Its hard and Im truly struggling in this crazy tough little world. People point to the fact of the ‘ unbearable lightness of being’, I think that WOULD truly be unbearable. Which is why I dont want lightness but meaning. but how not to lose your reason, your fun and zest for life while reaching for it…
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sstiles54 says:
Slylar,
Thank you for the inspirational sites. It’s weird that several of us have not been able to sleep, & have been having disturbing dreams. I struggle with being able to do anything good for myself. As dear Oxy would put it, I think I had an aha moment this past weekend. I had a lot of time on my hands, & therefore, a lot of time to think this weekend. I have spent my entire life trying to keep the peace, please others, do for others, so much so, that I have no self esteem left. And I really don’t know how to get it back. My kids are all grown now, & it’s just me & my dog. I feel so not needed anymore. So alone. I go to work & come home. Go to church. That’s it. My Bible study group is stating tomorrow, maybe that will help. I am just very down. If I died tomorrow, who would care? I always wanted to feel that I have done something worthwhile in my life, left the world a better place somehow. I look back, & all I see is a string of bad choices I made, which not only destroyed me, but hurt my children.
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MariaLisa says:
sstiles54
im afraid i dont know your story, or if you are still in contact with your kids. they would care if you died! plus you should care. you served other people now its time to serve yourself first and then other people. creating meaning for a lot of us women means having a connection with others. a bible group seems a wonderful place for it. have there been things youve always been interested in that you maybe could work up to start exploring now? are you in shape? can you get into shape slowly but surely and build a stronger body ( im beginning on doing that too) cause it will help making you feel more empowered and have the physical strength to mentally make yourself ready to embark on new ( even small) things….i know its hard…
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Easy says:
Sociopathy is a behavior!
For Insurance purposes it is a diagnoseable dissorder worth $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
yet try to find a defininition!? or any science to verify it or prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt???
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henry says:
sstiles54 – dont beat yourself up so – you have touched my life – i know we all have regret’s – we lived our lives’s for other’s – I am just now at age 55 learning to live for me – let go of the regret’s – look at what we have lived through and survived – please feel better about yourself tomorrow or else I will come boink you on yer head
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skylar says:
henry, maybe you could help me.
How can I tell if a man who acts interested in me is gay/bi or just plain not straight?
My P had so many gay men and women as friends and I didn’t bat an eye at this very macho, redneck type guy having so many gay friends because he was a musician.
Living in seattle, everyone has gay friends, it didn’t seem strange. Turns out he is gay, bi, straight and everything else.
So I’ve been sort of seeing a guy who tried to kiss me 4 years ago (I pushed away – being faithful to my P – LOL.) but I’ve known him for about 15 years off and on. He has never had a girlfriend that I know of but he has many friends, guys and girls. He was a roomate for my closet/gay Ex-friend, that’s how I met him. But my Ex-friend had a high roomate turnover so that doesn’t mean much. Now I think my closet/gay Ex-Friend knew stuff about my XP and never told me. If my good buddy would jump into the P-game, who can I trust?
How do I get gaydar?
What should i look for?
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ErinBrockovich says:
I have had ‘processing’ dreams too the past week. Maybe because my back is out and I wake up with ever turn…..it’s like I am doing the crocodile death roll.
As disturbing as they may seem at the time I wake up……I lay there and disect them….
I am a scientist this way…..I disect everything.
Lately, I have been ‘taken back’ to breaking up with the S as a teenager and how I was so desperate each and every time…..The words I want to break up only meant to me, go home and cry and destroy yourself until he calls you and takes all the bad emotions from you…..
He was in such control……over me!
In my dreams now, I am aware of how I respond and I correct the behaviors in my sleep.
This is something I am worried about for my future relationships……how do you ‘break up’ in an adult amicable fashion……..(well I guess I have to ‘land’ a relationship first) HA.
But, this is why it’s infiltrating my psychie through my dreams….to raise my awareness on this particular issue.
Normal people, when it’s not working, communicate this and make a decision……not play games, wait for an ‘im sorry’ call etc…..
I’ts interesting, but more interesting to me how aware I am of my dreams……
I go through times I sleep like a baby…..then there seems to be another lesson to be learned and it comes in my sleep….
There really is a lot of healing to be done, and I think it may take a lifetime to process.
But, as long as we keep moving in the right direction…..it’s all good!
XXOO
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ErinBrockovich says:
My S was bi….I found out after the separation!
A friend pointed me to Craigs list personal ads to see if I could find S’s ad on CL.
I was enlightened to the CL ads men for men, etc….
it was VERY disturbing to me how many MARRIED men were looking for a quick XXX yadayada, man/man rendevous….before the wife got home…..or on their way home from work, at a hotel, in the car etc…. etc….
Please be discreet ads, married men a plus ads…..
It totally freaked me out. As much as I had seen in my life and recently, THIS blew me away.
There are TONS of them Married men looking for men…..
NOW….I have said this 10000 times….I dont care about anyones sexual preferances…..EXCEPT….you can’t be married to me if your gay or bi! Want to occasional male sex or Not even if you want other women. I am monogomous/hetro and I expect the same from my husband/partner!
It’s just a personal preferance I insist on!
So, moving into the dating scene, on the heels of discovering just what the S was all about….I have often wondered how one goes about finding out if THIS guy is THE guy making the quick pit stop prior to coming home to me.
Since honesty doesn’;t seem to be something alot of people are into these days…..how can I tell, how can I get it out of them before it’s ‘too late’.
I thought I can’t just come right out and ask…..Hey Mr. New guy…..Have you ever had an encounter of any sort with a man?
There has to be a timing issue, and the way I present it….etc….
I thought I could say…..Oh, I love it when a man wants another man and wait for a response and pay attention to it closely…….that might get me the truth…….if that’s what he’s into….He could be thinkiing ….OH, I landed a cool chick….I can bring ‘Thomas’ along on our next date……
Uh, NOOOOT! That’s when I can run!!!
So I still have no clue……I guess I have to just choose and be more stringent in my red flag radar detection fine tuning of the gut,than I ever had with the ex S.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck………HE WANTS DUCK!
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justabouthealed says:
ErinB—the book When YOu Love a Man who Loves Himself does a good job of comparing and contrasting a normal breakup with a break up with a narcissist, let alone a P! But a normal breakup hurts, it is a loss, but it a loss that you understand. As in, I want kids, he doesn’t. And the good times were REAL. The ending doesn’t make you realize that it was all a fraud, because it was not. A normal relationship hurts like hell for a few DAYS when you break up, maybe a week, but you realize it was really no one’s fault, neither of you did the other one dirty, it is just as time went on you stumbled on to some deal killers… NONE of them having to do with betrayal or lies or stuff like that! And in time, when you look back at the relationship you SMILE. You may even have a friendship with each other after some time has gone by. Very different than breaking up with a P.
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justabouthealed says:
ErinB—Nope, questions won’t work. I think you have to do just as you said…look for those red flags!!! And watch the ACTIONS more than the words.
A man of integrity won’t be into game playing. Look for integrity I think . And STILL watch out for red flags and RESPOND to them. That’s the part I goofed on. I saw the red flags and sort of ….ignored them!
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Easy says:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....ml?tag=pop
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Easy says:
Skylar
Gaydar
If you watch who people watch , And who they take a second look at! another clue is who they are “extra” nice to! not just polite!
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skylar says:
none of the clues above would’ve helped me on the gay issue. He hid it well. The only reason I even know any of the stuff I know is because of books I’ve read. Now I can see how his late nights out and all his young blond male friends fit in to the narcissistic desire to sleep with people who remind him of himself as a young man.
I also remember walking by a young man who really did look alike a younger version of xP. I didn’t comment on it, but as soon as we were out of earshot, HE commented on it. I thought it strange because most people cannot see the resemblance between themselves and others. Like, I’ve been told I look like one actress or another, or like my sister or my cousins. I see very vague resemblences but wouldn’t have noticed it myself. My XP noticed it.
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Easy says:
some thing tells me that the fog is still lifting and still very much has a hold on the ground! Like early morn about 4:30am way before light!
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witsend says:
I keep reading this article over again. It seems to me that many of us labor over the labeling of these disorders, to put more clarity on the situation we are or were involved in. In some ways it is part of the “acceptance” of what you are going through and by putting a label on the disorder, it opens avenues to find possible outlets of others to “talk” openly with whom have been through much of the same things we ourselves are experiencing. Such as here on LF.
With all the crazymaking that goes on in relationships with these disordered individuals it DOES help to know that others have survived the same things that you yourself might be going through at any given time. And it certainly helps to have someone understand what you are going through. Because as we know, it is tough to explain the disorder to those who don’t “get it”. Or have never experienced a truly toxic individual……
I know for me, my son is to young to be “labeled”, however the importance of knowing what is going on with him, “disorder” wise is more about…..Is there any hope for him?
If he is BiPolar and ADHD, then it seems meds would be helpful. If he is well on his way to a full blown adult personality disorder, then from what I have learned from this site and other research, then the answer is not a good outcome.
I can honestly say that living with him is enough to make you crazy. The Dr. Jekle, Mr Hide thing is really more than I can cope with. It is so extreame. And until the cycle repeated itself many, many, times it was what CONFUSED me more than ANYTHING. (like what the hell IS WRONG with this kid?)
I mean it is this very “ability” that he has to act so “normal” one minute, particularly when it is in HIS BEST interest to do so (in front of certain people such as his brother) and then be so evil …..Its really kind of mind boggling.
I just have a hard time connecting the dots. The pattern is so right-left, up-down, here-there…..So many contradictions in one personality??? Its hard for me to even believe that he is ONE IN the SAME person. And I live with him and have trouble believing it.
I remember not so long ago when my son had “conned” his counsellor that he was doing so much better in school. When I informed this man that he was lying to him (he was doing worse) the counsellor raised his eyebrow at me….
Like he didn’t BELIEVE me. …..Because my son was so convincing.
When he is confronted in a lie he projects that onto the other person. That they are lying, not him.
Living with disordered people that live in their own distorted world, does at time distort our own perceptions when we are at a low point.
Thank goodness there is a place to share this…..
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Easy says:
witsend
forgive me for not knowing the specifics!
but I think we have gone over them before.
Diet ! I know it sounds foolish! Music ! may sound foolish too!
I believe his age is going to be a problem that is beyond your control!
Boundries, If you do not have a way to set them than you need to find a legal way!
Baker acting an individual is a 72 hour fix! there are ways , you have to just be determined to make them work for you! where there is a will there is a way!
All my prayers!
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PInow says:
There is one thing I cannot place with the Ps: Fear. If they have no feelings, no remorse, no consciousness, why is there fear?
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kim frederick says:
PInow, from what I understand they don’t really feel fear, either. At least not like you and I do. That probably has somthing to do with why they don’t learn from their mistakes, and why they do what they do to begin with.
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henry says:
they have fear – BPs NPDs are driven by a constant and deeply motivated drive to find safety in their lives by avoiding things that trigger their terrifying fears. Both narcissist and borderlines percieve a threat in the judgments of the people around them, one that is so great that it is terrifying to them
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Easy says:
But their Fear is a weekness that they do not want to show or Deal with! That is why they are so roten!
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Outlier says:
Is it commonplace among forum users to be labelled mentally unstable by abusers? My 2 abusers have used the mental health trap on me accusing me of having ‘antisocial personality disorder’. This was their only weapon when I called police and authorities about the neighbour’s antisocial behaviour (she harrassed my elderly parents for years, it only stopped after she got out the mental health card).
This is how I came to know the term ‘PD’, ‘borderline’, ‘ASPD’ etc. Ironically I have to thank my abusers for sneaking in these terms. They were the catalyst for researching abuse/serial bullies etc.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
As I think you know, many psychopaths ARE bi-polar, and many ARE ADHD, as well. Just because you have one doesn’t mean you can’t have all 3. The Trojan Horse Psychopath had all THREE, he was Bi-polar, ADHD AND psychopathic (official diagnosis ASPD).
He WAS treated for the bi-polar and the ADHD but it didn’t stop his PPD from being full blown! It didn’t stop him trying to kill me, having teh affair with my DIL and trying to kill my son C.
As far as I know, my P-son has no other diagnosis for mental illness, depression, bi-polar or anything else. But he is a full blown P.
What difference if he has 1, 2 or even 3 or 4 other diagnoses? The bottom line is the ONE that makes him dangerous to others as an abuser? Even if you medicated the others successfully (many, if not most, times they will refuse medication as they actually like the feel of the bi-polar mania) but you still would not be able to infuse a conscience or the ability to give or receive love. You would not be able to get them to focus on something besides themselves.
At what “age” you recognize that your son has a SERIOUS unfixable problem, (a personality disorder) whether he is treated or not for the other problems that are treatable, doesn’t make a difference in the TOTAL OUTCOME.
I realize how difficult it is to ACCEPT that someone so “young” is beyond help, beyond hope, and believe me, it took me 20+ years to realize that, but ALL the signs were there by puberty, the time the REAL “manhood” gets there, not just the artificial “age” that our society puts on “adulthood.” In most more primitive societies, adulthood went along with puberty, adult responsibilities and accountabilities came with physical maturation at whatever age it happened. Our artifical designation of “adulthood” at 18 or 21 is just that, an ARTIFICIAL designation.
A young man here can go to war at 17 with his parents premission to join the service, but he can’t buy a beer or cigarettes legally. He can vote at 18 (it used to be 21) and youths much younger than 18 who committ heinous crimes are being tried and punished as “adults.”
Yet, we also know that the frontal lobe of a young person’s brain doesn’t fully mature until after 21, maybe up to age 25.
Each society uses a different criteria to determine who is responsible (legally) and held to the standards of “adult” behavior. I don’t think there is any artifical standard of age that fits every situation. I know kids who are “little kids” at age 15 and others that are ADULTS by 13. There is a huge variation in emotional and physical maturation in kids.
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skylar says:
I had a new insight:
The institution of slavery was P-behavior sanctioned by society. I see it most clearly in the need to CONTROL others.
In both narcissism and slavery, the need to suppress the other person’s will and deny their personhood is obvious. As we have all experienced, the only thing the P’s like better than servitude is complete submission of your soul to them.
Slavery has existed since the earliest days of humanity and only been eradicated in most countries very recently.
How much easier it would have been to keep living with eyes closed and allow people in the south to continue keeping slaves. After all, the slaves were not even from this country, they were not even considered real “people”, they were “others”, different from us – scapegoats. In fact, the bible was often used to justify slavery because slaves are mentioned in the bible.
Instead of living with eyes closed, this country bravely went into a bloody civil war against the narcissistic beliefs of the slave owners. So, that gives me hope. By opening a dialog, creating analogies and exposing narcissism for what it really is – slavery – we can create public awareness and outrage.
The sad part is that it took thousands of years for humanity to open its eyes to the evil of slavery. How long before they see that the root of slavery was narcissism? How long before they see that eradicating one manifestation of this evil did not make the evil go away? Only when we recognize this evil IN ALL OF ITS MANIFESTATIONS can we begin to put an end to it.
No, Kim, I’m not picking on Pinky-Doodle again. I only mean to say in all of its HUMAN manifestations.
No Oxy, I’m not calling you a P for eating steak either, we all have to eat. Just as long as we don’t eat people’s souls for lunch!
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OxDrover says:
Skylar,
You are right, and to take it a step further, look at WWII, where hitler “dehumanized” some segments of society (not just the Jewish people) as less than human, as vermin.
Look at 9/11 where the terrorists dehumanized Americans because we do not share their religion, we are “evil”—we dehumanize them, and go to war with them.
Almost ALL I think of man’s “inhumanity to man” is based on “us vs. them” thinking. The Native Americans preyed on each other, tribes went to war against each other for resources and “fun”—-it was us vs. them thinking.
I think a certain amount of “us vs. them” thinking is almost genetic in mankind. When we humans lived in small bands it was probably necessary for survival of the band, especially when resources were very limited. It was kill or die. I think that tendency lives on in narcissisticly inclined people even today.
The history of humanity has been written in BLOOD since we crawled out of the muck or left the garden of Eden (whatever your beliefs are) and I don’t see it changing much in the future. Some of us will see things in a more “civilized” manner but yet even we tend to “profile” others by age, race, sex, dress, etc. we “form opinions” on first meeting someone by those external things, which many times are not correct, but it is a fact that we DO this.
Here on LF we are learning to “profile” psychopaths by how they behave in order to keep ourselves safe from their attacks. We are learning to look for the “red flags” that indicate (or might indicate) that they are dangerous people and we need to avoid them.
Psychopaths have learned to “profile” US so that they know who it is SAFE TO ATTACK and who will ‘fall for” their abuse and who will not. Just like a school yard bully doesn’t pick on the strongest kid in the group, he picks on the weakest who is less likely to fight back.
Good analogy with slavery.
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OxDrover says:
ps. Keep in mind the American Civil War was NOT faught to free the slaves, but over “state’s rights” vs. the Federal Government’s powers. Lincoln “freed” the slaves well after the war started as an economic blow to the South. Many early “fathers” of our country, including Jefferson and Washington owned many slaves and saw nothing at all wrong with fighting for THEIR OWN LIBERTY while holding others in bondage.
At the time blacks were “slaves” in the south, the north was treating the working poor worse than slaves because they had no value once they were starved or worked out. Factory Child labor was very common once the spinning equipement was developed, and children as young as 6-7 were worked 12-18 hours 6 days a week for not even enough to feed them enough to keep body and soul together.
As each new immigrant group (Irish, Italians etc) came here, they were the newest “bottom rung” on the social ladder and were treated as disposable labor.
In “Fatal Shore,” the history of Austrailia’s “criminal” immigrants, these people, many of whom were NOT criminals by any standard used today, were treated horribly by the political faction in power in England. The psychopaths who were the “prison wardens” were socially acceptable and what they did to these people is as bad as what happened in Germany during WWII. It is remarkable that any survived.
The psychopaths among us (humanity) are in my opinion, responslibe for 99.9% of all the problems of the world and our or any society. If all we humans had to deal with was cancer and AIDS and such as that, it would be a paradise on earth compared to now. Consider: no hunger, no crime, no child abuse, no rape, no robbery, no crooked politicians, no jails, and everyone working for the good of society.
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skylar says:
Oxy, Yes, and even many diseases would be less frequent because stress is a component of cancer and autoimmune diseases. The stress of living with a P is life-threatening and financially devastating.
But I don’t want to bring killing into the analogy because many wars are fought over land or ideology. My point in bringing up slavery is that it is EXACTLY like kidnapping. What happens in a relationship with a P is exactly like that too, only more sinister because you aren’t even aware of what is happening. The lies are your shackles. Both killing and slavery use dehumanizing for justification, but many narcissists are very carefully avoiding outright killing so that they can say they are innocent. I want to focus squarely on denial of personhood, what that is and how it happens so that it is recognized in every manifestation: racism, misogyny, child abuse, kidnapping, slavery, scapegoating, etc…
I do know that the argument over state’s rights came up later, but I think that was a (typically narcissist) diversionary tactic on the part of the south. The Abolitionists were called that because they wanted to abolish slavery. They got attention from the North because money was at stake. Slavery was cheap labor and gave the South an unfair advantage. I get that. That’s why the financial COST to society has to be part of the argument for change. $$$ is the only thing people get.
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Hecates path says:
Fascinating thread of comments, gang… thanks to all who shared.
Erin B referenced the craig’s list ads and it reminded me of a disturbing website that I searched once looking for the S (this was long after we broke up and the angry side of me wanted to “catch him” & “expose” him… gave him way too much of my brain rent free!) Anyway, it was called ashleymadison.com and the slogan there was “life is short;have an affair.” It was an entire site dedicated to helping MARRIED/committed people find someone to have an affair with. The”traffic” that came to my false member account within minutes and days was beyond disturbing…
Like Erin ( i think) said I don’t give a hoot about someone’s sexual orientation… but boy do I have my opinions on people who cheat, gay or straight, as a lifestyle choice… and by that I am not talking about people who unexpectedly find themselves in an affair, due to unhappiness, or being mislead in the partner’s intentions, etc., I mean those who chronically cheat as a lifestyle choice, either with repeated affairs, one night stands, or stranger sex encounters… and in every case putting their unsuspecting partner at risk. that website made me sick.
well, gee that was a useless soapbox kinda rant, wasn’t it?!
With regard to Oxy’s comment about how they “profile” us, in hindsight I am “amused” at the fact that the S targeted me at a time when by by all appearances I was pretty vulnerable… 3-4 months post divorce, single, professional mom with three kids (2year old twins!) and an alcoholic ex in rehab,selling a house by the skin of my teeth to avoid foreclosure cuz the ex wasn’t paying at the time… only to be quite surprised when my confident, outgoing, got it all together real self “re-surfaced”. Actually I wasn’t ever truly submerged, it likely just looked that way to the S given the circumstances… Joke was on him, huh?!
BTW, I can’t go in to details here in public forum but I am on alert these days cuz he’s unfortunately in a position to instigate something with me if he so chooses….and interetstingly while I maintain NC and potted plant stance with him, he seems to have changed tactics to make it appear as if he’s givng me no contact – turning his head when HE sees me, etc…. BUT AT THE SAME TIME maintaing his and his family’s presence in my “turf,” and making a choice that from my vantage point arouses my suspicions of his motivations/intentions. I know this likely doesn’t make sense, but really the point is that, while I do nothing to provoke him, he is going to be one sorry SOB if he chooses to screw with me in this context.
My best friend says he won’t do anything, he just likes to have the appearance of being the one in control or may truly not care, etc. given he just tied the knot with his new victim and is preoccupied with being prince charming. I, on the other hand, know S’s don’t like to lose, like to win publicly, and may reappear in our world without warning as the need suits them… for sheer narcissitic how dare YOU leave ME purposes, or to cause chaos/ have a cause or a battle to win/detract from the dysfunction that resonates in his world… and he ALWAYS needs a cause to fight for. Or, even just because he KNOWS there’s one person out there (lucky me) that knows too much/knows the truth about who he REALLY is… yep I believe that fact alone could instigate him now, in the days to come, or in years to come… and thus my continued vigilance and belief that you NEVER underestimate an S/P!!! But, as I said I am watching, waiting, and taking precautions/making strategic choices so that should the need arise… I am prepared
OMG, I sound like him fighting a war, LOL! Am gonna have to give my tactics a fancy sounding name like “Operation: You’ve met Your match” Or better yet. how ’bout “Operation Don’t You Even Dare F*** with Me, You @#$%& Borderline Narcissiopath!”
Well on that note, LOL, thanks for reading & apologies for monopolizing the thread with such a long post. Had to get in my lovefraud fix and therapy now that I am back to work, I guess. Thanks for letting me spew forth a bit here, friends!
Hugs,
Hecate’s path
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Hecates path says:
Oh yeah… I forgot to add a book recommendation – which was actually why I referenced Oxy’s comment originally and in respons eto the Q’s about how do you “know” who someone is when you first date them etc.
Hihly recommend “Profiling Your Date – a smart woman’s guide to evaluating a man” by Caroline Presno.
Even has a nice little section on narcissism and a blurb on how medications and birth control pills could affect how women “choose” men/mate selection based on some newer…
research…
Just for the record this book hasn’t helped me find a good man… but it, and my experience with S, of course, have sure helped me to “spot” the multiplicity of Mr. Wrongs!!!
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Hecates path says:
uh yeah… that should say:
HIGHLY and BASED ON SOME NEW RESEARCH.
I think my inability to type coherently today is a sign I need to take a break from posting today, LOL! best be taking my hands off the keyboard for a spell now, and go have a spot of tea… not! It’s off to do laundry… ugh.
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