232 Comments to “The nature of the “abusive personality””

1. shabbychic says:

   Hi. Yes, I am interested in learning what “borderline personality organization is! I was reading and thinking “what did I miss here?” This is a term I am not familiar with. Thank you for taking the time to write this interesting article! I have seen the “blowing off steam” phenomenon, usually followed by why it was the other persons fault it all happened. Questions #1 & 2 certainly ring a bell !!!!!!!!

   Isn’t studying sociopathic behavior part of a clinicians or researchers education? Not even a teenie bit?

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   Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 10:58pm

2. ANewLily says:

   Dear Dr. Leedom,

   If I had any doubts left whether or not my EX was a sociopath, your 4 statements above with the questions and answers certainly solidified my belief that he is one, for 100% sure.

   I always have to research for myself before I can “believe.” (I like that aspect of myself actually!.)

   And if I haven’t thanked you for writing and publishing, “Women Who Love Psychopaths” let me heartily thank you now. I read it first to validate my own assessment about “why” I was targeted. I am now reading it again to “solidify” former research about the psychology of these “critters” from another planet.

   This current article is very timely, well-written, and pertinent. Thanks for writing it.

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   Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:09pm

3. ANewLily says:

   I forgot to mention my interest in borderline personality “organization” as you asked. I would be interested in learning more about this disorder but not because I am interested in learning more about the causes of my Ex’s disfunction. My interest would be in adding to my “arsenal” of info for educaional purposes of others. Very valuable, I think.

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   Friday, 31 July 2009 @ 11:17pm

4. ANewLily says:

   Question: Would the research being done about the cyclical nature of abuse fit the category of our informal description of Dr. Jekyel/Mr. Hyde? It seems to reflect that aspect, doesn’t it?

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:45am

5. Betty says:

   Dr. Leedom,

   Thank you for another terrific article, full of useful information, and so accessible, which is deeply appreciated.

   Please talk about borderline personality disorder — I find it confusing and would like to understand.

   Best wishes,
   Betty

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 3:04am

6. Tilly says:

   Over here in OZ we have more information on borderline personality disorder than ANY of the other personality disorders or mental illnesses ! Libraries and bookshops and the net are filled with info on it ! It is literally everywhere. I don’t know why that is.
   When you give us YOUR explanation of it, could you please make it as straightforward and succinct as possible ? Their are so many differing opinions and views over here!
   Thankyou!

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 4:05am

7. TNewman says:

   I’d like to mention that another word that contributes to victims of sociopaths not being able to recognize them is the word “abuse”. MOST people’s minds interpret abuse as physical abuse. They don’t see the S constant attention needs, cheating, jealousy…all about me…traits as ABUSE. I get it but I have to admit that I kept questioning myself about my ex S because he was never physically abusive towards me although Biddy recently wrote and told me that he threw her to the ground when she tried to leave him awhile back and then threw her belongings in the yard. Trust me, he would HAVE never done that to me in a million years! He knew that my sons would have beaten him to a pulp and he also knew that I had already been in a physically abusive relationship prior to my involvement with him. He told me he would NEVER hit a woman, blah, blah. If he had of gotten physical with me, it would have blown his cover. All of her family lives out of state and they live 1/4 mile up in the mountains with NO nearby neighbors. That’s scary!

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 8:55am

8. Hecates path says:

   Dr. Leedom,
   Wow! Reading this article was just one lightbulb moment after another for me! It totally explains why my mother who has never been formally dx’d as borderline but is a textbook example seems to “cycle” so regularly – to the point that in a discussion with a psychiatrist I stated she was likely borderline and he replied “Or bipolar given the cycling.” The comorbid nature of her disordered thinking/personality obscures a diagnosis.

   This article also explains something that I have wondered about for a while… in my attempt to make sense of my ex S’s behavior – behavior that I now know makes no “sense’ to the rest of us – I realized that he fits the criteria for BPD, AntisocialPD, NPD… and in hindsight it appears that his behavior just before and during the “Devalue & Discard” (there were mini D&Ds before and after but this was the BIG ONE) was suggestive of Bipolar Disorder. As my therapist pointed out, (regardless of what you actually call him) that combination was the “recipe” for “one of the most disturbed, disordered and abusive people [she has] ever encountered” (by proxy) in her career. And *that* conversation was before I learned about sociopathy! He is an alphabet soup of the DSM -IV!!!

   As this article and Dr. Dutton’s work suggests, though, the concept of the “abusive personality” accurately encompasses this multiplicity of personality traits/disorders exhibited by such severely disordered and destructive people. Perhaps a DSM category of Abusive Personality Disorder could end the debate about Sociopathy and AntisocialPD that has inhibited the “system” for too long. The diagnostic criteria would be almost too simplistic:
   Multiple co-morbid personality disorders resulting in a history/pattern of exhibited behavior/traits that are abusive and destructive to self and others.

   Can we nominate you and Dr. Dutton to the DSM revision committee??!!! The various LF authors could serve as an advisory committee…

   Thank you so much for sharing this information with us. I have a mental list of “must read” information that I reccomend to others trying to understand sociopaths and this post will be added to my list of must read information.
   Thanks again,
   Hecate

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 9:35am

9. Hecates path says:

   For those of you who are interested in learning more about borderline personalitydisorder/borderline personality oranization, I found two books to be especially helpful:
   “I Hate You, Don’t Leave Me – Understanding the Borderline Personality” and “Stop Walking On Eggshells – When Someone You Love has Borderline Personality Disorder”

   http://www.amazon.com/Hate-You.....0380713055

   http://www.amazon.com/Stop-Wal.....gy_b_img_b

   They are both really good books for understanding the nature of borderline personality organization. At the same time its been a while since I read “Stop Walking on Eggshells” so I feel that I need to give a disclaimer: the book gives suggestions for how to “deal with” the borderlines in your life, which are helpful when setting boundaries with borderlines (like a parent or boss) who are toxic and emotionally draining… however I don’t recall the book being explicit about “dealing” with dangerous, abusive, malignant people by the most effective means which is going NO CONTACT. It might have done so but it’s been a while since I read it… and truthfully the place I have found to be most informative about the value of going no contact is LF!

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   Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 9:57am

10. OxDrover says:

    Liane, this ONE ARTICLE clarifies more than the entire rest of the stuff on LF—and that is going a long way!!!!!!! thank you so much, so VERY much.

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    Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 11:27am

11. Jen2008 says:

    TNewman says (re Biddy a former LF poster who is now married to T’s ex husband if i got my info straight): “Biddy recently wrote and told me that he threw her to the ground when she tried to leave him awhile back and then threw her belongings in the yard…………..All of her family lives out of state and they live 1/4 mile up in the mountains with NO nearby neighbors. That’s scary! ”

    TNewman, If my memory serves me correctly you warned Biddy about your ex, but she married him anyway after living with him awhile (in spite of him cheating on her and giving her std’s), then Biddy posted here for awhile. Now her husband has already shown abusive tendencies towards her. My own situation was no family in the same state as me and living with NO nearby neighbors like Biddy. It does sets up a scary scenerio indeed. I am glad you have been there for Biddy. I realize it is frustrating when they are warned and don’t listen, but I did was lost in the fog myself and I’m not sure a jackhammer could have blown me out of it for the longest in spite of “intellectually” KNOWING, yet I continued to make excuses and stay in denial or go against my own best interest–kind of like being stuck in quick sand I would struggle a bit to get free then sink back in etc.

    I just want to say I hope and pray that both you and those of us here on Lovefraud will continue to be supportive of Biddy each and every time she comes round for support, or rather I know we will but for some reason I need to verbalize it. I know I went back and forth so many times, in spite of getting more and more info (and even after reading Without Conscious and thinking my ex would likely be a perfect score on the PCL-R), as I was sooooooooo mentally screwed up and on a sort of remote control by then, very dissociated from my feelings. I sense that with Biddy and strongly identify with her denial about her man and also with her isolation away from family or even neighbors . TNewman please keep us updated on how she is doing (as you get news) as I am very concerned for her. –Jen

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    Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:16pm

12. Jen2008 says:

    Well, I have to admit I am somewhat confused by this article that seems to indicate that all abusers are sociopaths/psychopaths. I am not clear on “why” that would be. All people who commit murder are not s or p, and all rapists are not s or p, and all people who steal repeatedly are not not s or p and all liars are not s or p as other mental conditions or personality disorders also do very bad things. I thought a s or p had to demonstrate the severity of traits or characteristics consistently in ALL areas of their lives, so I am not sure I “get” why a person who abuses a spouse would automatically be a s or p, and maybe not just a really mean drug addict or really mean drunk or some other mental illness or personality disorder who goes off the rails every now and then. (and before I get flamed let me say I strongly am against domestic violence and I totally get it is toxic and it is wrong, but I just don’t exactly get why this automatically makes them a s or p as this article implies).

    Does this research replace other research and information in numerous other books and articles, including from experts such as Hare who stated that approximately 25% (I think the figure was) of PERSISTENT spousal abusers are psychopathic? This leds one to believe that an estimated 75% must have some other disorder or factor playing into it. Not even all serial killers are psychopathic as some have other disorders, so I am afraid although I agree they are all toxic and some sort of disordered, I don’t get why a domestic abuser would “automatically” be a sociopath or psychopath. couldn’t one have led a perfectly normal and honest life up to say age 30 (for examples sake) then get addicted to maybe crack cocaine and whenever they get high on drugs become mean and abusive, but never be abusive any other time. then perhaps they kick the drug habit and clean up their lifestyle and never be abusive again. So what happened…….did they become a temporary psychopath, then recover from psychopathy?

    So is all research leaning this way and overlaying all the former research? And does this mean since sociopath and psychopaths are not treatable in domestic abuse programs (I have read in various places that many people ARE helped through these programs and go on to learn appropriate ways to deal rather than abuse, but s or p’s do NOT learn and the program has no effect on them)–so what will become of domestic abuse programs to treat offenders if all abusers are all sociopaths and psychopaths and cannot be helped–will the programs be disbanded?

    I am not trying to be difficult here, but I think these are serious issues and questions that need to be addressed if all abusers are going to be labeled sociopaths or psychopaths. I have not read the book in question, so I am not saying it ain’t so, I am just asking questions and wanting some sort of clarification as to where research is going.

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    Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 1:38pm

13. Jen2008 says:

    But in rereading Dr. Leedom’s post it seems the Dr. Dutton is not saying all abusers are sociopathic or psychopathic, but that “chronic” abusers are personality disordered (which could include things other than sociopaths or psychopaths).

    But then Dr. Leedom in one place in the posts says they are all personality disordered (which could mean various disorders and not just sociopathy or psycopathy), and then in another place she says they are sociopaths. Ok, it sounds to me this is just “her” opinion as far as them all being sociopaths and is not backed up by research, if I am reading this the way she intended???? Or maybe I’m still just confused by the post.

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    Saturday, 1 August 2009 @ 2:40pm

14. LCSW says:

    Dr. Leedom, thank you for sharing your professional opinion. I would like to respond to the two questions you ask in your post. I certainly feel that Psychopathy/ Sociopathy is a separate diagnosis and can never be applied to all abusers. Historically, it was linked to the APD and is now being considered as a separate diagnosis within the DSM V. The factor(s) that make an abuser carry such diagnosis are pathological lying, disregard for others, and shallow emotions. As we know, Borderline Personality Disorder is another diagnosis all together, not always associated with pathological lying. If anything, the emotional spectrum within BPD is extreme, not shallow. On the other hand, I appreciate your point that a socially deviant behavior is a symptom of social pathology, which is different from sociopathy/ psychopathy. I value your opinion deeply, but disagree with the statement that all abusers are psychopaths. I recently listened to Dr. Samenow’s seminar, titled “Inside a Criminal Mind”. He gives a very detailed and truthful description of the abuser, as well as the diagnosis. Lack of remorse (or partial remorse) is one of the pillars of the disorder. The grim outlook for the APDs is certainly not shared by those who treat BPDs and other PDs and find that abusers are capable of change and do learn and modify behaviors. Borderline organization is at the core of many PDs, but if it were used interchangeably with sociopathy, we’d only have one Personality Disorder listed. Thank you for allowing me to share my opinion.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 12:57am

15. BloggerT7165 says:

    Jen,

    The way I read it, and I could be completely wrong, is that Dr. Leedom was givng her opinion that all the “chronic” abusers are rather than all abusers are.

    LCSW,

    I would say that some abusers do can and do change and others do not. Having worked in the prison setting previously I would agree that some do and some do not and that it is a choice they make. For change to happen, no matter what disorder it is, the client has to truly want to change. If they do not want to change they won’t.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 1:35am

16. Tilly says:

    I can never understand why women need to talk to the ex-wives of their partners. I have always gone a million miles to avoid the “ex”- whatever”. There is something inherently unhealthy in talking to the ex rather than your partner. And even for the ex partner, once you have warned them it is probably best to detach.
    Biddy is very lucky to have TNewman. For me, I had to reach my “rockbottom” of having no-one but myself left before I “got it”.
    Of course we will ALL always be here for Biddy. We were ALL Biddys once.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 2:48am

17. LCSW says:

    persons with schizophrenia may become chronic abusers, unless their condition is properly treated. within certain environments, abuse is a survival strategy. This will start me talking about military, and I better not go there.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 10:14am

18. OxDrover says:

    Part of the problem of WORDS is that we each have a slightly different “definition” of the words—like “abuse” for example.

    WHAT IS ABUSE? What is NOT abuse?

    Human behavior is never quite a totally “square” peg or a totally “round” peg–because each human (except for idential twins) are UNIQUE, and each SITUATION is very MUCH unique in place, time and circumstances, so trying to catagorize “types” of humans let’s say in to “round” or “Square” or “trapizoidal” are all going to be quite IMPERFECT because NO two humans are going to be identical, or fit ALL the criteria of “round” or “square”—-

    The other problem with catagorizing and defining people with “personality disorders” is that it must be done taking into consideration various professionals’ particular favorites in terms of definitions, experience, their own ego, etc. AND must be done by CONSENSUS.

    One of my favorite “true-isms” is that a “Camel is a horse, designed by a committee.”

    Everyone has to put their own “hump” on it so what you come out with is not necessarily the “best” design but everyone is placated by being allowed to “contribute.”

    Since it is my belief that no two of us are going to be able to completely agree on the definition of what is “abuse” (and BTW that will VARY with culture and other variables) much less the other items that must be defined.

    Personally, I think it might be better to define “personality disorders” like species and genus with sub-catagories.

    Take Equines for example, they include the horse, the donkey (ass), etc. and within those, the various BREEDS. No matter what the animal “looks like” on the surface, they will fit within the catagory of “equine.”

    QUOTE: LCSW: “in certain environments, abuse is a survival strategy” I would “redefine that” as VIOLENCE rather than abuse. I do not believe all violence is “abuse”, but like s/he said ‘A SURVIVAL STRATEGY.”

    The DSM V which will be coming out soon, I do not have much confidence will be much, if any, better than previous ones at describing the various kinds of “personality” disorders than past ones have been. With professionals not being able to come together on definitions, symptomology, and causation, I think we will just have another version of the “camel” and who knows, this one may have 6 humps or six legs.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 11:53am

19. ANewLily says:

    Oh, Oxy, I think this 11:53 a.m. is your BEST post!

    Not sure I agree with you that VIOLENCE “ia a survival strategy” any more than I might think, as LCSW does, that “abuse is a survial strategy.”

    Other than that, I am complete accord with your thinking above.

    I almost completely disagree with LCSW’s theories — unless he/she could quote some studies rather than just personal experience, like in prisons. Chronic physcial abusers change? I think not!

    I apologize for any disrespect that my opinion, based only on one experience living with a physical abuser for nearly 50 years, may be assumed.

    As I think about it, the definition of abuse to any survivor or untouched person in the public, has to be qualified with adjectives, like emotional, psychological, sexual, and physical, in order for experts and victims to “speak the same language.”

    With all due respect, I attest that I would still be living with my EX with the malignant hope that he could change, if LCSW had been my counselor — and probably be dead!!

    Well, not really still lving with him. By the time I escaped, I KNEW beyond any doubt that he would not change but just continue to get worse. (No drugs, no alcohol, no prison record involved.)

    I didn’t even seek out a counselor until after I had escaped to save my very life and that was to help ME heal from the experience.

    The past 7.5 years have been devoted to trying to understand “what” happened to me. I wish I had taken classes with tuition and I’d have another degree!

    Dr. Leedom’s theories are the first ones that brought the whole picture into place for me.

    I don’t know if my R.N. daughter’s 10 year experience in a prison setting for sex offenders is any basis for “scientific” analysis. It was common knowledge among doctors, nurses, etc. that the firm opinion that sex offenders do not change was true.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 12:37pm

20. henry says:

    This is one of the best articles I have read, thank you Dr. Leedom. I was always good at filling in the blanks and multiple choice, at school anyway, but when you apply it to unhealthy relationships it does validate what I already new. When you grow up in an unhealthy inviroment, abuse of any kind is normal. Normal until we hit rock bottom and are forced to ‘fill in the blanks.’

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 1:37pm

21. newlife08 says:

    This article is AMAZING for me!!!!

    I have not read anywhere else about the CYCLES of the relationship.

    My Husband actually said to me “IF YOU CAN JUST PUT UP WITH MY CYCLES WE WILL BE OK.”

    CAN THESE BE THE CYCLES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

    He would get close , to pull away – repeatedly, in different segments of time . But he was also cheating – affairs , sex sites – he was just cycling us all through – like if one frustrated him he would cycle over to the other.

    We had some periods of what seemed more intimate loving times, and then he would distance again.

    I would often tell him he plays with me like a toy only to put me back on a shelf when he is done.

    This article pretty much confirms he is not only Narcissistic bit a Sociopath – which I knew from counseling.

    Dr Leedom – more detail is certainly welcome

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 3:36pm

22. newlife08 says:

    I

    have trouble with the term SOCIOPATH because it sounds so ominous- so intimidating – so hopeless.

    Not that NArcissism is much better –

    So if he has repeatedly cheated, lied incessantly to my face about almost every facet of our 22 year marriage, has been financially deceitful, selfish, self-serving and reckless, does not see the impact of his behavior on our children, blames me for everything, has taken advantage of hids friends financially, hidden assets and investments etc, etc – he qualifies for the term SOCIOPATH?

    I thought he could also be bi-polar because of his hypomanic episodes 4 or 5 times a year.

    Perhaps he is more borderline influenced – ?

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 4:33pm

23. henry says:

    newlife – Maybe you dont need to label him. Somebody said a few weeks ago we were giving them super natural names. What if he is a S or a N or Borderline? Does it really matter what you call him? Do you think with just the right label you will understand even more? Or perhaps be better equiped to fix him? The person you describe is bad, and bad for you. A book that helped me more than any is Meaning from Madness by Richard Skeritt…I have really stopped trying to understand the X (because I never will) and work more on understanding me .

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 5:21pm

24. holywatersalt says:

    Just this week I posted on the over-diagnosis of bi-polar disorder – in reality many diagnosed BPD have IMPULSE CONTROL disorders, anti social…psychopaths
    http://holywatersalt.blogspot.com/

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 5:30pm

25. newlife08 says:

    Henry you are right……

    Doesn’t matter what I call him ….I receive the excerpts from Skerritt – yes -interesting in getting ourselves back on track…

    Maybe I still fel too much shame allowing myself to stay in it for so long……….

    If I label him ….it makes me less guilty???

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 7:03pm

26. henry says:

    yes – i felt that way too – if he is a scary disordered monster than it was all his fault and not mine. But I do remember that ’somethings not right with him feeling’ and I am glad someone told me he was a sociopath, and that has led me to alot of awareness about personality disorders. I remember when someone recommended the book to me, just the title alone gave me hope that I could put some answers to the MADNESS…that s what it was, 3 years of madness. I think we can get saturated with the subject tho. My X has patterns that are very predictable, he fits all the traits of many disorders. I have my own demons to deal with and I have learned alot about things i didnt have a clue..in the end call it what ever – we must learn from this, and I have…

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 7:28pm

27. learnthelesson says:

    Henry..

    Just a hello to you…I think we are the same amount of time out of the MADNESS and toxic relationship…hope you are doing well and staying strong. I cannot believe I still have setbacks, but I am realizing they are just more growing pains as I keep going forward. Take care! Still think we should plan that LF Party on the farm! – LTL

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 7:47pm

28. henry says:

    Hello Learn – I have setbacks also, but nothing in me want’s to go backto the madness. Hey that party should be on the oprah show, maybe she will fly all LF member to a Tropical Island – you reading this Oprah????

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 7:55pm

29. akalpita says:

    Why do we continue to love the sociopath?

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 8:36pm

30. Brilhancy says:

    akalpita,

    In my opinion we continue to love the illusion that we though was a reality. After all we fell maddly in love with the S because he showed us the things he knew we loved (the cameleon). But everything was a fake. He also knew we would care a lot for him, based on the traits he showed us.

    It is hard to let that illusion go. And that is why we suffer so much. We loved the ‘fake’ things he shoul us, but we hate to know they were all lies. We feel betrayed and that is a hard thing to accept. We have been hooked to an addiction (it was very good but yet was slowly killing us). Now we are trying to break free from the addiction.

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 10:34pm

31. Pinow says:

    I totally agree with Brihancy.
    And – to put it into the context of this thread, I feel that BPDs are very different at the core. My parent is BPD – can be abusive, can be manipulative, can be the sweetest in the world, yet, has own character and tastes and even when acting to seek positive attention from others, does so knowingly and not with intent to hurt. APDs on the other hand will create the total illusion of truth, mimic your very nature, and then destroy it at the core. It is also the reason why the victims stay and not find the strength to terminate the relationship. We keep looking back at the dichotomies, and are not sure if we believe what we see (observe) or what we hear. With my BPD parent, its really straight forward for the most part, and we all learned to deal with it. The behaviors are not malignant, only attention seeking. It’s easy to get “sucked in” but in reality, there is no emotional abuse such as the one I encountered, when the castle (created for my benefit by the P) in the sky fell apart before my own eyes. “I promised? – So what? I changed my mind”. does this sound familiar to anyone?

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    Sunday, 2 August 2009 @ 11:03pm

32. henry says:

    yes very familiar but it was “Look I am sorry I f–ked up your life” hmm did he have a conscience maybe?

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    Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 12:50am

33. ANewLily says:

    akalpita, you asked, “Why do we continue to love the sociopath?

    I’ve thought about this for a couple of hours and realize that I don’t have an answer. I just do — but it wasn’t because I had been loving an illusion. I “saw” him quite clearly after the first 3 months.

    I think I could describe my love for him (even throughout the “marriage”) was a member of the human race, a male person who had been created by God, worthy of being treated well regardless of how he treated me.

    I wish him no ill (and that puzzles me sometimes for what horrible things he did) but I SURE AM GLAD THAT HE IS 1800 MILES AWAY.

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    Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 2:08am

34. ANewLily says:

    Henry, it is past midnight but I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated your words and encouragement — especially the acres of lilies blooming — last Friday.

    I think I already mentioned that but your story of how horribly your mother mistreated you has haunted me. You are a strong person to have survived that. You didn’t deserve it.

    I didn’t have a mother like that — nor was I that kind of mother. I put the “plan” that God had given me last Friday into action this afternoon — and one result was that Daughter #2 firmly reunited with me. JOY She admitted that it was her father behind all the “junk” and that she had only good and kind memories of me. Another JOY.

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    Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 2:13am

35. henry says:

    Lily – That is wonderful news. I picked a bouquet of Naked Lady Lillies this morning and thought of you!!!! Dont take that out of context please…….

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    Monday, 3 August 2009 @ 4:11pm

36. cutandrun says:

    I have been able to easily put both N/S/Ps (that were) in my life squarely in the N/S/P category. They both met all “qualifications” perfectly.

    I have a much harder time, though, trying to fit my abusive dad into the category. Abusive, but not 100% of the time. Non-apolgetic, (if that’s a word), but no cycles, just the apparent inability to process any emotion other than anger when under stress or perceived stress. Vents anger, places blame, cools off then all is well. No head games involved, no stringing along, no toying. No physical abuse. Hates to be inconvenienced, stressed if required to vary his daily routine. Deep seated need to keep certain image to outside world, but interacts with outside world as little as possible.

    Those are the negatives, but he also is very generous with regards to money, and can always be counted on to help with a problem or emergency. Helps us fix our cars and with household repairs. Makes deliveries for my brother’s business for no salary, just for having something to do (he’s in his 60’s and retired). This sometimes creates problems with abusive outbursts toward my brother. He says it’s only about once a month this happens. Somehow he is able to shake it off and is still willing to continue with this arrangement. It would leave me shaking in my boots and cringing for the rest of the day.

    So I’m not sure what label would fit him. Generally he seems like a normal, respectable sort of person. I’ve not had to experience one of his outbursts for a few years now. But as a child they were just about daily.

    After the discussion with my brother the other day (there are just the two of us in the family), I’ve come to realize that I was the one that internalized everything. He got more of the physical “punishments”. I was constantly analyzing and trying to figure out how to make it “better”, wishing my brother would stop doing the things that set him off, wishing my mother would quit saying things that set him off, and then saying things to coddle him. And of course, trying to be “perfect” so the anger was not directed at me. Which at times antagonized my mother because it was always my brother that received the abuse, therefore she felt I never got mine.

    Then she started drinking when I was in high school, so then I ended up playing “counselor” and mediator between the two of them, and maintaining the household chores. For the life of me I have no memory of my brother even being in the family at that time. She went to AA and stopped drinking after a couple years (I think, I can’t remember the time frame).

    Anyways, long story the point of which being, I don’t know what to call my father, lol.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 10:15am

37. OxDrover says:

    Sometimes some of the “cluster B” (personality disorders of various kinds) people have anxiety that will be alievated by an “ourtburst” of anger/rage/tantrum and then they will be “okay” for a while until the anxiety builds up and is again released by another tantrum/rage/anger outburst.

    These people are sometimes called “borderline personality disorder” or “histrionic” but can be any number of different labels BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS they do not experience emotions like the rest of humanity—-once their outburst of anger or rage (no matter how hateful or hurtful it is to someone else) they want to go back to “pretending nothing happened” and if you try to talk about, or work out the hurt that they have done to you, they become even more enraged. You must tip-toe around them to keep from “setting them off”—

    Which exact disorder your father has, it really doesn’t matter because he is NOT going to “get better” and will continue to throw tantrums off and on.

    My egg donor is very much that way, very controlling and I am No cotnact with her—can’t take the outbursts, won’t tolerate her control, and there is no compromise.

    Just keep reading, researching and learning—first we learn about them, then we learn about ourselves, then we heal ourselves, then we live a good life. God bless.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 4 August 2009 @ 9:00pm

38. bunny says:

    “they want to go back to “pretending nothing happened” and if you try to talk about, or work out the hurt that they have done to you, they become even more enraged. You must tip-toe around them to keep from “setting them off”—”

    That is exactly my experience. Things only go along reasonably smoothly as long as you don’t step out of line. It doesn’t matter what you do – a wrong expression on your face, the wrong tone in your voice, anything can trigger them. Its like walking around with a live grenade.

    Thats the only thing that I don’t get a sense of when reading alot of the comments on this forum —– how totally terrifying these people are.

    There is plenty of discussion about the ‘walking on eggshells’, the ‘gaslighting’, the lack of love and all that but, to me that murderous fury which is always simmering just on the surface of these people which is the most terrifying aspect of them.

    Every day as a kid I would dread the walk back home from school, my heart sinking and my throat getting drier with every step I got closer to home. I would be a shaking leaf walking in the door right up until I was 19, the feelings of terror, violation and injustice are as strong today (30 years later) as ever.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 12:29am

39. ThornBud says:

    Just thinking about cycles. About mirroring, and WHY they can’t stand a mask longer than few months. Maybe because they cant make us NOT to see real face. We saw it, and they know it is a matter of time we will start digesting new picture we saw, and mask will slip.
    When mask slips, they can see in our eyes how do we see them, they see THEMSELVES, the evil, and i believe it terrifies them. So we are both in denial phase. After the victim saw who they really are, game is over and no need to pretend – now they can hate openly. And they DO.
    I dont believe they have no feelings, hate is feeling too, and they do hate us for knowing who they really are.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 7:08am

40. OxDrover says:

    Dear Bunny,

    I think most of us have had that feeling, and I know I talk about “walking on egg shells” to keep from setting them off, is the way I describe it. The terror of doing something to “provoke” them and have them turn on me.

    I am sorry you dreaded going home, that is not the way a child should feel coming home from school. And even worse, the child has no way to relate at all to those feelings of not being “safe” and “protected” at home. Home is where a child should WANT to go FOR safety and peace, not stay away from. Every child deserves a protection from that feeling. I’m sorry you didn’t get that either.

    Many times growing up in that kind of environment makes us later think that is “normal” behavior and that we can expect that from others, I think it is part of what “sets us up” to be victims of later psychopaths.

    I’m glad you are here at LF, this is a great place not only to learn about them, but about ourselves.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 7:31am

41. cutandrun says:

    Many times growing up in that kind of environment makes us later think that is “normal” behavior and that we can expect that from others, I think it is part of what “sets us up” to be victims of later psychopaths. – said OxDrover.

    Yes yes yes! This is how I lived all my life. Totally petrified to get anybody at all angry with me. Always either doing whatever possible to try and avoid it, or doing damage control, and always expecting the worst. Problem is tho, that sometimes it is true. My childhood best friend was extremely controlling. Would give me silent treatment if something didn’t go her way, and would be fine again as long as I was the one to apologize. I used to have to create reasons to apologize.

    Then I had a boss very much like my father. Did not give me appropriate training then yelled at me when I made a mistake. Made me cry when I was pregnant.

    I spent a lot of time as a young child, trying to analyze my parents and figure out what or who was wrong and why, and what could or should be done about it. Spent a lot of time alone outside as that was the only really safe alternative.

    Yes, I was afraid to be at home with my parents, but still, emotionally/socially unprepared to be out in the world. Terrified of going away to college.

    Into adulthood I’ve had many nightmares of my dad screaming at me and I will scream back – “just hit me and get it over with!!”

    I told my husband last night that if he gets worse as he gets older, I’d rather just step out in front of a bus. I am not convinced he does not feel love, but I am positive he doesn’t know how to feel it appropriately, as his inflated sense of self gets in the way of it, and justifies the rage. He himself and his family have a difficult time being affectionate and demonstrative. But he’s never used it as a ploy to get what he wants, or to apologize after an attack – never apologizes. Though I have seen him do it in public to non-family members.

    Bunny – I identify totally!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 1:35pm

42. runningaway says:

    I’d like to know more about borderline PD. It does sound dramatic to say my mother is a sociopath. Especially to those who know her. They think she’s just so charming. All her craziness is due to the loss of my father.

    I also wish someone would write a post about coping skills for people like me. My mother is a SP. But she’s going blind and we just learned that she may have dementia. How do we protect ourselves while making sure she doesn’t wind up on the street?

    It’s been such a crazy year. My dad died. My mother was DXd with macular degeneration, had a bleed so she can’t drive (but did until we took the car). A couple of weeks ago she rubbed her eye so hard she dislodged the lens in her bad eye and tore her retina. That eye is now all blind.

    My sister and I went to help my brother with all this. She seems so sweet and nice when she really needs help. As soon as the major crisis was over she was back to lying, back stabbing, blah, blah, blah.

    The Dr thinks the only way she could have done that to her eye is if she wasn’t in her right mind. I think it’s possible that she could have done it knowingly due to extreme anger.

    Anyway, guess I just wanted to vent a bit. But some coping help would be useful. It’s so stressful it’s so hard to describe. I feel so angry, but there’s no changing her, so pointless to talk to her. And I fear this is just the beginning now that she’s sinking into old age. I wish it were over.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 1:45pm

43. jofary says:

    I totally relate, Bunny. It is well over twenty years ago for me now, but I’m still dealing with the aftermath of that “special” kind of terror that no child should have to deal with.

    Like most children of N/S parents, that terror has formed my life in such negative ways. It has impacted my choices, big and small, and rendered me helpless to form my own opinions, self-worth and boundaries. The terrorizing, even as an adult, continued until the day, eight months ago, I finally HAD ENOUGH and fought back with (gasp!) “I don’t care what your opinion is of me, Mom.” It was an epic moment: I was suicidal and she picked that particular moment to viciously attack me personally – not a normal reaction for any truly “loving” parent. Thanks to LF, I RECOGNIZED the dissonance, understood the motive and realized at that moment I had to be my best friend, and stand up for, protect, nurture myself the way I would do for anybody else I loved. Otherwise she’d have destroyed me WILLINGLY and would have gotten a lot of enjoyment from the sympathy and attention by her friends while she “grieved.”

    You’d think I’d told her she was the spawn of Satan but, I guess to a control freak N/P, there is NOTHING worse than being told he/she is irrelevant by a former source of Supply.

    In any case, that has led to unequivocable nastiness from her in an effort to force my will to bend and beg her forgiveness (no doubt with the requisite prostrations and IOU’s forever and ever for my wrongdoing in ever thinking her opinion didn’t matter). After all, why shouldn’t it? That tactic has worked for over forty years! However, I am now morphing it into No Contact on MY terms. That’s it, I’m done!

    Already I feel so much better spiritually even though my life, financially and personally, is in absolute shambles as a result. I think I’ll really start being able to make some smart, healthy decisions for myself now that I’m not being influenced/pressured by the egg donor (thanks Oxy, for that great descriptor!) based on what will or won’t “embarrass” her or reflect on her.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 5 August 2009 @ 5:02pm

44. Stayingsane says:

    there is not a label on this planet that could sum up the way these people actually successfully blend into society and maybe I’m a bit paranoid but when you start putting everything into “nutshells” I get nervous, the human species is a creative organism that constantly evolves, yet here we have the human equivalent of cancer cells as human, they destroy the good cells eventually ending in their own demise anyway…borderline personality is a clinical word that says nothing to me of the allure of these people, the charm factor the persuasiveness all the better to destroy you with…it really is red riding hood and the wolf “what big teeth you have” “all the better to eat you with” and the wolf was a borderline personality? I’m sorry but it just sounds so “We have it all under control because we can name things and label things and document it…its just a joke, these people are still destroying life…and getting away with it in a genius kind of way and we would need to start labelling, documenting and naming how we respond to them and what that says about us..

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 6:41am

45. jofary says:

    I guess the whole point of us “normals” putting labels on these folks is to really get to understand what has happened and, more importantly, prevent it from happening ever again.

    Yes, it seems ridiculous on the surface that the people who have been damaged by the disordered pow-wow, trying to understand and heal through labels and naming, while the disordered themselves merrily go on their way, cutting a swath of destruction through other people’s lives. However, the only hope we, as a species, have of controlling this group is through knowledge.

    It seems more and more people ARE picking up on it lately, though. Corporations, some financial leaders, even entire governments are referred to a sociopathic entities by the media because the label fits the behaviours. There is increasing pressure on courthouses, counsellors, social workers, etc., to learn the true meaning behind accusations of abuse and multiple convictions. It’s happening very slowly but it IS happening.

    The more people that recognize the labels, the better. Maybe then people who have never personally experienced the gifts bestowed by the disordered can help put a stop to it before it really gets out of control.

    Maybe I’m just being an optimist, though. It kind of stinks to think these people ARE the cancer of the world that we have no hope of getting rid of.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 12:56pm

46. PInow says:

    For those who care,
    I think I got it. The Eggshells book on one of the preview pages, states that Borderlines feel feelings, like everyone, but they are very intense feelings, rapidly cycling and quickly changing. Because they are so incredibly intense, it’s hard to contain them. Psychopaths (APDs), like ThornBud noted, feel Hate, as the only viable emotion they are capable of genuinely experiencing.

    it’s been few days without you all. I have done it on purpose, but felt lonely and came back. Thank you for sharing in this awful experience. I can’t imagine what it would be like had I not found this site.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 6 August 2009 @ 11:28pm

47. ANewLily says:

    Welcome back, PInow (Katya)

    You were missed but it is true that sometimes we need a respite from even the wise advice and encouraging words. At least I do.

    I’m glad to hear you “got it.” I’m rather positive my EX was not borderline but I have a friend who was married to one. Not fun! Are you perhaps thinking this “label” identifies your disordered person? If so, I hope knowing this new information will help you figure out the rest.

    I agree with Jofary’s statement, “I guess the whole point of us “normals” putting labels on these folks is to really get to understand what has happened and, more importantly, prevent it from happening ever again.”

    We, for sure, never want to go through this again!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 12:36am

48. Stayingsane says:

    jofary

    Yes its the steady march of my ex P and kind of unstoppable machine like way he sticks to his agenda regardless or in spite of the mayhem around him. He could fool anyone, his body language is a lie, he switches around like a chamelion. labelling him might help in describing him, spotting him, detecting him, avoiding him of course…i’m just despairing the fact he is still out there spreading poison…we all know him, there is a growing group of us…his sister, his mother, his father, his friends, his neighbours, his former girlfriend (still trying to get over him 3 years later, me (trying to forget him) 1 year after, As i said to his sister we can sit around describing him till the cows come home…and there is this almost resigned look in all our faces…we cant reach him!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 3:58am

49. Stayingsane says:

    PInow

    Hate…the only viable emotion they are capable of feeling…thats the cancer cell element of them and the very very bad news about them…My ex P seemed to have put on a brilliant act…his sister agreed he is a master at lying without flinching. He stares with this completely trustworthy look, not a trace of sneering, very vulnerable open looking…and thats him performing the act and I defy anyone not to fall for it….its seamlessly convincing

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 4:07am

50. Stayingsane says:

    ANewLily

    I know that I could go through this again! in fact thats the only way I can go forward is to really know…yes this can happen again. I suppose like a fighter cell I have got to experience the cancer cell…let him destroy alot of me and then trying to group to gether with other fighter cells…his family and we are kind of circling him now…but how to deal with him? we attack cancer cells with radium!!! and they come back!!!! so we are all just talking about it…discussing various ways of approaching him..I would honestly say if he feels us closing in he will skip the country and go somewhere no one knows him..and start again…thats why maybe getting a criminal record from me might stop his ability to move around at least a criminal record is a signal to people….but every person i talk to i am scanning for psychopathic traits and even us “normals” have them as does society, we would not enable them otherwise…or treat animals and children the way we do…so I am going to turn it around in myself so that I am at least aware its in me too and thats where I can fight it best.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Friday, 7 August 2009 @ 4:22am

51. jofary says:

    Stayingsane

    It’s understandable that you want to warn others, prevent him from harming again – just as strangers reach out to strangers in times of crisis, that is what we “normals” do.

    But in most cases, people entangled emotionally with P’s just simply don’t want to hear. They’re not ready or they believe you have an agenda. Our efforts are usually unrewarded and we are left with the same old guilt and unresolved issues.

    That is where the power of knowledge comes in. Throwing labels around and using laymens terms to describe the soullnessness of these folks helps other laymen connect the dots. It give everyone the tools they need to protect themselves. Then there will no longer be a need for those of us who have been violated to spend valuable time warning future victims instead of healing ourselves. Put a bunch of fitting descriptors that every ordinary person understands under the umbrella “Narcissist” or “BPD” or “Psychopath” and those labels will eventually become meaningful to everyone. It’s like racism or sexism in reverse because, in this case, labelling is good. Very, very good!

    I went through it with two ex’s before I connected the dots myself and realized where it stemmed from (the egg donor). If it hadn’t been for all the confabulating done on this site by ordinary people putting their two cents in in creative and identifiable language in order to understand what hit them, I’d probably have continued the pattern. I simply wouldn’t have understood what it was I was dealing with or the permanence of the disorder. I’d probably have continued to focus on my “responsibilities” for the turmoil in those relationships, along with accompanying guilt and lowered self-esteem.

    Now in my mind’s eye, I have a nice big filing cabinet labelled “DISORDERED” with a lot of files and subcategories inside, including red flags. If someone I know demonstrates any behaviours that can be pulled out of any of those files then I know it’s inside the “DISORDERED” label and I must run far, far away.

    Before I had the filing cabinet, though, I just had all this mess of paperwork on the floor that I didn’t know what to do with so I kept falling into the same trap over and over again.

    That’s maybe a strange analogy but it has worked very well for me since I adopted it.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Saturday, 8 August 2009 @ 2:17pm

52. akalpita says:

    For Brilhancy, Pinow and ANewLily,

    Thank you for your words. Brihancy, your words confirmed what I knew inside but just found it all so very impossible to believe anyone could be like this. These articles and posts are mind shattering and I deeply greatful that this blog exists. I just could not believe that the things that were happening were actually happening. and everytime I felt as though I got kicked in the stomach I couldn’t figure any of it out. I was in the relationship for 3 years and out for almost 3. Unfortunately, he lives in my building, so I run into him and everytime something inexplicably cruel happens. Luckily, our last encounter was when he told me he intentionally hurt me. (not with remorse, but with a kind a glee.) and that he only hurt me, no one else.

    I say luckily, because the pieces began to fall into place. I told him I had figured that out and walked away forever.
    I now know that the only way to not be on the receiving end of this abuse is to never cross paths with him however accidentally. (Hard to do when you share a building lobby and a Starbucks!) oh well, no more coffee for me.

    Now he has a new victim.

    I asked all of my friends for names of therapists in the NYC area who deal with this disease. and I found this blog. I think I may be ok now.

    I have few memories of my childhood, but after reading what everyone has written here, I had a wave of recongnition of childhood pain that felt just like the pain of this relationship. My mother always hurt me intentionally. I figured that out too about 13 years ago and haven’t had anything to do with her since. (I am 52, so it takes me a long time to get it!) I think she is a sociopath as well.

    I could not possibly convey how much all of you on this post have helped me. I guess it was time.

    If anyone is in NYC and does know someone who deals with this topic, I would love a referral.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 August 2009 @ 9:37pm

53. akalpita says:

    oh and I do want to add….. my system didn’t seem to know any other way to define Love than to the drama associated with the abuse of the S.

    For me, the mind has to understand first, then the letting go happens on its own. Love to everyone here.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 August 2009 @ 9:56pm

54. ErinBrockovich says:

    AKALPITA:
    If you do run into him again, alone…..do not let him engage YOU……Smile like it ’s the best day on earth, a gleefull inner smile (this may take some acting!) and say hello. THATS IT…..do not engage him, pretend to talk on your phone or something……anything…..THAT”S IT…..he is insignificant!
    If you are with others……then engage them heavily in a positive exchange, laughing and pretending not to know he is in your space……if he insists on butting in…..turn to him like a fly just hit your shoulder and look at him like he’s an incidental and say Oh….hmhu and turn back to your friends and carry on…..
    DO NOT EVER ENGAGE HIM, listen to his crap or let him in your head.
    YOU ARE IN CONROL!!!!!! DO not fear him, and certainly do not GIVE UP YOUR STARBUCKS…..GIRL…..what ARE you thinking?!!!
    YOU ARE IN CONTROL….YOU ARE IN CONTROL….YOU, YOU, YOU!!!!!!!!
    He is a peon to you…..this is how you must view him……Do not live in fear in your own residence building, fear of running into him, fear of any exchange…..
    You have the strength to do this. Take back the control.
    It will be uncomfortable at first, but after the first few ’sightings’, you will be empowered. HOLD YOUR HEAD HIGH!!!!!!
    When they feel they have power over you, they will continue the harassment. This was why he said to you about meaning to hurt you and not done it to anyone else….blah, blah, blah…
    DO NOT ENGAGE!!!!!!!!!
    If you happen to see him with his new victim…..be a pittying type of pleasant to her with a smile. She will soooooo wonder what the hell is going on! That’s a seed you can plant! It will all make sense to her one day.

    You gotta be in control of the ‘game’, while you rebuild your self esteem and confidence.
    S’s just don’t like to be insignificant or average to us…..

    We lost Matt to another man…..if he pops in, he would be the one to ask about a therapist that ‘get’s it’ in NYC.
    Otherwise, you may check on the “HIGH conflict institute’ website for someone in your area that has gone through the training. Worth a shot.
    GOOOOOD luck…..
    XXOO

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 August 2009 @ 10:08pm

55. justabouthealed says:

    akalpita: The guy isn’t a birder by any chance is he? I realize there are lots of residences in NYC over a starbucks….but hope it isn’t the same guy because he is BAD.

    And Erin, great advice as usual!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 August 2009 @ 11:19pm

56. justabouthealed says:

    I meant the same guy I was involved with. I’m sick, my brain is kind of foggy!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 9 August 2009 @ 11:20pm

57. ANewLily says:

    JaH, I am assuming that you are on antibiotics for the strep. I feel for you. It is a painful affliction, let alone an energy decreaser as well.

    Get well soon!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 5:46am

58. justabouthealed says:

    Yup, antibiotics, fast acting steroid shot to reduce throat inflamation, was having trouble getting water down. Thanks, I’m on the uphill part now. Thanks for the verification of the energy drain…it has been that! I thought I was just being a wimp.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 10:57am

59. OxDrover says:

    Dear Akalpita,

    Welcome to LoveFraud, and I’m glad you are here. Seems like you “qualify’ for our “club”—sorry about that, but this is a good -place to learn and KNOWLEDGE=POWER.

    Growing up with a parent who demeans you, intentionally hurts you, etc. is a good training for being involved with a psychopath (by whatever name, a disordered person) who enjoys hurtin gyou. We see this as “normal”—I’m glad that you found out though, and are starting to heal and recover.

    I grew up with an egg donor who also demeaned me, so can relate. I am 62, so still learning to like and respect myself and have compassion for myself. Again, welcome and God bless.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 2:46pm

60. Stayingsane says:

    Jofary

    Yes…of course…you make a whole lot of sense and thanks. i’m angry…i’m having nightmares, i cry on the middle of the day and keep saying “oh My God” as I hoover, wash dishes and get through the day..I am totally bewildered. I read it’s a post traumatic stress disorder thing, and constantly replaying the scenes again and again …and saying Oh My God…and then the revenge thoughts….and my friends are sick of me…and I should probably have a therapist because I need to talk it out ad nauseum, i need to drop it…let it go but…so hard
    Ox drover
    You have really described the origins there… growing up with a parent who demeans you…excellent traing for living with a psychopath who “enjoys hurting you” I dont understand what you mean by ‘egg donor’ is that your mother? who….

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 3:53pm

61. ANewLily says:

    Stayingsane, You told me that you could do this again. I think, if I understand you correctly, you are hoping to get some kind of criminal record to … what? vindicate yourself? protect others? get some kind of revenge?

    I’m just shooting in the dark here because I’m not sure you are still living with him — and if you are planning to stay until “someting” happens?

    I do understand your desire to “be sure” but from my own experience I have great concern for you!

    I “stayed” for an extra 10 months because he had “said” that he had finally accepted the Christian message and I wanted to give him a “chance.” All it gave me was an extra 10 months of crying and ended with more intense physical abuse until the last one was intended to KILL me.

    Then I didn’t have an “exit” plan because I had to leave on such short notice — couldn’t even inform our adult children properly. I only could pack a suitcase, reactivate a ticket to an unknown city 1800 miles away with no plans once I got here.

    By the time I fled, I didn’t even have a clear enough head to think about calling the police on him — so no criminal record anyway.

    The result was, though, I had such such relief for the next few months, had “time” to evaluate what had happened to me, acknowledge that his words had all been lies (including the spiritual things) and maybe most important, the end of the daily crying!!

    Was it worth staying an extra 10 months? NO! For one thing, the extra toxicity ruined my physical health, let alone worsened the emotional wounds and gave me the horrid memory of almost being a murder victim! (Talk about PTSD!)

    You are in charge of your own life and no one can make a decision for you. You do have family that supports you and that’s a plus.

    Know that all of us Lfers care and are sending you good thoughts and prayers!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 5:17pm

62. ANewLily says:

    Sorry. I just reread your last post and see that it is his family, not your own, that is supporting you?

    In my wildest fantasies, I can not imagine how mothers could treat some of you so cruelly. I hurt for you all!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 5:51pm

63. anetsu says:

    This was one of the best articles Ive read on LF!! its been almost a year and LF placed me on my way to recovery. My _______(teehee…blank) was described perfectly in this article…just last week I ran into her and the words out of her mouth were “textbook” to this article. “Oh,there is something about you that I just cant let go of…I know your love runs deep and I know I can spend the rest of my life with you!” yeah right, because she knows she can continue to victimize me. Secretly inside I was laughing and after reading this post I am laughing out loud!!! It was a “hands on lesson” and for once(thanks to LF) I was a step ahead of her. Believe me, for a second I felt myself wanting to believer her, so then I posed the question to her of who she is seeing now….She said “no one, just someone on and off” I said “Does this person have a name?” And when she spoke it, I laughed on the inside even harder. It was the SECOND person(out of 5)she had cheated on me with. I got to see her viscious cycle up front and center going around the bend again! And since that impromptu meeting, she has poured it on thick through texts to me,guess since she thought since I talked to her, that was her “in.” I responded to some of her texts but I do not advise that to anyone who has been a victim that cannot discern what exactly is going on. That meeting was an affirmation of everything I have learned from LF. Thank GOD for this site..

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 6:11pm

64. nokeeper says:

    Hi everyone–It’s been a long time since I posted. I used to go by the name Imakeeper-not, but I have a computer at home and at my store and I post at my store with another name because I re-registered. Anyway, I am an everyday visitor to this site, and I read everything. I can’t tell you how much LF has helped me. I owe this site, among other things, my sanity. I have finally gone NC for 5 days. I have gone through so much pain from my relationship and at the same time received so much comfort reading your stories that are all so similar to mine. I doubted myself for so long, lost my self respect, everything. Until– I found this site. My s is SO like so many I read about here. I have read everything I could get my hands on about sociopaths, and my reading has removed any doubt–he passes the list with flying colors. I don’t want to feel sick anymore, hate myself anymore, doubt myself anymore. I want ME back, and I will do whatever it takes. So THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. This site is amazing and so are all of you. Words fail me. I will probably end up driving you all crazy at some point. I am still in shock over his horrible ass and my crazy one, so I am sure it will be a battle for me at times. However, this time it is a battle I will win, because if I don’t get myself back in control of my life and myself and forget about him I think I will fade into a little point of light and go out with a little quiet “poof.”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 10 August 2009 @ 6:57pm

65. akalpita says:

    For Erin B – thanks so much for cracking me up! and for the love in your message. I have tears in my eyes now because I am so amazed that you are all here!

    Justabouthealed or JAH (love that nickname), it reminds me of loving jah rastas I have known. Peace. The S is many things, but not a birder. We are across the street from Starbucks and luckily have other, BETTER, coffee places in the neighborhood. I do hope you are feeling better.

    OxDrover, well, many have said this to you, but you are truly wise and very gifted with your writing! In reading all your posts, I have learned so much. yes, I belong to the club and thank you for welcoming me! Love the “egg donor” phrase, it is quite the way I have thought of the person who was supposed to be my mother. It is a helpful way to think about her. My brother and sister have a wonderful and close mother, I was the one she was jealous of. So they cannot understand why I won’t see her and hold it against me. She has made a practice of lying to them about me. I thought I would perhaps lose my whole family when I stopped seeing her and so I did. My sister won’t even give me her mailing address. But there is nothing to be done about that.

    So yes, I have had very good practice defining Love as pain and humiliation. I have always thought I was an insightful person, but to not realize, to not recongnize when I was being abused, manipulated etc is mind boggling. When they get you at an early age, what do we know? We think it is the way everyone lives! UNTIL THE PAIN ALMOST KILLS US.

    But I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel.

    It all hurts so very much sometimes as everyone here knows. But then, KNOWLEDGE does = POWER.

    and for Nokeeper:
    when you say” I don’t want to feel sick anymore, hate myself anymore…..” I feel for you. I felt like that for 3 years and kept going back to him, because I didn’t think anyone could really be as cruel as he was, that he didn’t really understand what he was doing to me… blah, blah.

    I want to support you in not seeing him (I think that is what NC means). and if you can manage the pain, stay away. For a long time, it was more painful for me to not be with him, than to be with him even with the sick stuff he did. How we do get addicted to this! I felt like a junky on withdrawals.

    Shock is what I still feel. Shock that people like this exist and are part of the human race!

    so GOOD LUCK WITH THE NC. I AM PULLING FOR YOU.
    and good for you that you seem to have found out sooner rather than later.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 11 August 2009 @ 12:14am

66. ErinBrockovich says:

    Anetsu:
    Wonderful, empowering for you…..good advise “I responded to some of her texts but I do not advise that to anyone who has been a victim that cannot discern what exactly is going on.”
    It’s hard to tell if someone is ready or ever ready to receive more info via a more ‘intimate’ kind of contact…..
    Sometimes it’s necessary to ‘accomplish goals’, sometimes it’s best to let it be…..
    I hear that your gaining info that you are empowered by, rather than being sucked in.
    GOOD FOR YOU!!!!

    Nokeeper:
    When your ready, ready, ready……MAKE THE MOVE!
    In the meantime, keep reading, posting and post some more…..you know the strength offered here!
    Document, and do what you have to do to keep yourself safe, sane and intact!
    Do not ever doubt yourself….stay in control, it will be okay!
    Good luck….
    XXOO

    Akalpita:
    your a sweetie…..now go wipe those tears and OWN THAT BUILDING!!!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 11 August 2009 @ 12:30am

67. anetsu says:

    ErinB, I am empowered!!! And since that impromptu meeting, she STILL is trying to suck me back in…Through texts, not face to face. My empowerment began with LF and it was a shining moment when my empowerment went to the next level when I was face to face with her. As I reflect on that meeting and the ensuing text that are still coming… I have to put it in the perspective of one of Povlov’s(sp?) experiments……..this is a trained individual…….but this time I RANG THE BELL and sat back and watched her go through the motions with me already knowing her every move and final outcome. That was priceless!!!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Tuesday, 11 August 2009 @ 5:45pm

68. ErinBrockovich says:

    anetsu:
    There is something about knowing their every move and becoming able to ‘predict’ what they will do next that is very handy in dealing with them.
    I have heard others say they are very unpredictable….but my experience has not been like that.
    My S was VERY predictable and still is, even though there is space and distance between us. I know he will never change.
    ‘Knowing’ him allowed me to protect from attacks on various levels…..
    He always gives me a ‘heads up’ on his next move…..knowing this…..it’s even more important for me to ’shut up’.
    It cracks me up how he is so bewildered at how I know what he’s up to.
    I used to tell him constantly…….you need to keep your mouth shut. “when you have nothing to say….say nothing”.
    He just talks to talk….get’s carried away and exposes everything…..
    This is also why I am so shocked tht I didn’t know he was selling drugs……so I know he knows ‘how’ to keep his mouth shut on one level.
    But yes, knowing your ‘enemy’ is key to protecting ourselves.
    I don’t know how to explain to someone how important this is…..
    but obviously you get the importance and use it to your benefit.
    There is nothing better than sitting back and watching them squirm and react to your ’set up’.
    Good going!!!! Keep ringing that bell!!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 12 August 2009 @ 1:30am

69. Stayingsane says:

    ANewLily

    Thank God you got away from him. He was about to kill you. My ex boyfriend is a P. The most charming, gentle, honest most reliable guy you could hope to meet ….he could look at me with truth in his eyes, he could well up and feign emotion at times…anyway he robbed me of money, car, other items material,and turned into a callous, cruel tormentor….his greatest line..”I’m just joking love….” after saying things that really hurt

    I met with his sister, she told me the only reason he wasn’t physically abusive was because he knew he wouldn’t get away with it in my country (In Latvia they turn a blind eye ) but he was truly getting there as he almost had me living over there. I bought a house (in my name thank god) and was learning the language, and sending over money for him to do some work on the house…I visited every chance I got and “it appeared everything was fine” but my body was sick…I was feeling crazy, I was overly paranoid about him and other women so I began to name it..and then he began to get abusive, impatient..(because I wasn’t going along with the bullshit) He did hit me once… it was very humiliating and I blanked it out…his sister told me he was violent to his other girlfriend, and with her….she was pregnant and he kicked her in the stomach and she lost the baby (I was numb with shock…its just 2 weeks ago she told me) He also drove her out to the countryside with a “friend” stopped the car and ordered him to beat her…he dragged her out and battered her senseless…then said that will do for now…and drove back…her brother!!! did that to her!!! I have no doubt that he would have beaten me as soon as I cut ties with my own country to move to his…but something in me wouldn’t go.
    I have crossed the line of doubting my self to feeling sick at the thought of him. He scares me and I have nightmares about him.
    I could get him on ‘misspropriating funds’ (He used money meant for work on the house for his own selfish pursuits) which I have heard is a string of women, who he seems to use for sex and then lets them go….but he did try to marry one of them she had a very good job and a beautiful apartment..and 3 children (oh my god the damage he could do there) it didn’t happen but he will snare one of them soon and I am considering standing by and let it happen….
    So is it justice i’m after? revenge? he is his own revenge, being him is revenge enough…what about the children he has access to, the women he could fool and torment over years if she marries him…what …do we just stand back and let it happen? knowing he is out there doing what he does offends my sense of all that is right in the world and breaks my heart, revenge is puny beside what he is allowed to get away with by a family of enablers, me, why? because what I haven’t the balls to go after him? It will be horrible and expensive and time consuming but please give me alternatives that could restore my peace of mind? I’m not close enough to him to be in any kind of control over the situation…I broke out of playing him long because when you look into the abyss, remember the abyss looks into you..I could devote my life to taking him down, but who is taking who down really? and getting even with what ? an entity that might shrug a bit and continue regardless…like the psychos in movies that are shot but get up again? anyone who takes the time to read this, thank you….

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 12 August 2009 @ 5:38am

70. Brilhancy says:

    Stayinsane,

    I have been through all those questions myself, what to do with him? Let him keep going on, freely and deceiving and hurting so many other inocent people?

    Unfortunatly yes, and this is the best thing you can do for yourself. Spend your energy in healing and rebuilding. Anything you do towards him will be a waste of your time and energy and your frustrations will just grow. If you concentrate in healing and rebuilding you will feel the sense of achievement and feel empowered. If you pursue him you will achieve nothing but more frustrations and hurt. Remember they are very good in convincing people and they are capable of making you look a fool. Your best revenge is to make him feel so small , so insignificant in your life by ignoring anything about him (they hate this).

    They will only keep running and unfortunately we can not protect other people. If the judicial system is not capable in protecting us, who are we to try and protect others. The S will eventually run out of places to hide..Remember they will get old and sick and they will end up lonely and miserable. If anyone comes to us and ask about them, we can say whatever we want to say, but if you go and tell other people about the S, the S will have a lot of enjoyment from that. This mean he still been able to upset you..and they love that.

    Turn the corner in oposite direction..there is where your sun will shine again..

    I know this is a hard thing to do but is the thing that will make you feel better. Your success is your best revenge..

    (Report abusive comment)

    Wednesday, 12 August 2009 @ 6:36am

71. bunny says:

    jofary: it’s terrible to think you were in such a low state, but it is good that you make your stand.

    I love your comment “spawn of Satan” LOL, that is almost exactly the response I had when I informed the narcissist in my life that she was far from an ideal mother.

    Sadly the worst thing you can show them is weakness, it’s like what the smell of blood is like to sharks, it sends them into a feeding frenzy. Their behaviour when faced with other people’s vulnerability is the most revealing in my view. The savagery, the grandstanding – you have to see it to believe it.

    Anyway good on you for making a stand! Keep the strength and seek the light.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 13 August 2009 @ 12:19am

72. bunny says:

    stayingsane, I guess the reason why we are trying to label these people or identify them is so that we can see them.

    Its a bit like someone running around with an invisibility cloak on, they are in the room throwing things here and there and we can’t see who it is and why they are doing it, only that there is a trail of destruction and misery wherever they go.

    These people are the definition of TRICKY and slippery.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 13 August 2009 @ 12:40am

73. Matt says:

    Hi, all:

    Have returned from the British Isles and the Emerald Isle. Had a magnificent time. When I was on holiday I got called in to interview for a position that would be absolutely dynamite. I would get to wear the “white hat” again which would be a very nice change from a psychological perspective. Anyhow, I went on the interview yesterday. I thought it went dynamite. But, until the fat lady sings — or hands me an offer letter, I’m not letting myself get all agitated over the prospect of having to sell my home in this market and having to do the “long-distance” relationship thing. Anyhow, any prayers, good-luck charms, white magic, secret potions etc you can send my way to get me back to work are most appreciated.

    Speaking of the relationship, things are going very, very well with the new guy. He is taking me away this weekend. When he told me the weekend away was his treat, I almost fainted. If S even sprung for a coke I would have fainted. However, since he never sprung for a coke, I never had the opportunity to test the validity of that theory.

    I can’t tell you how wonderful it is to be with somebody who treats me with respect and kindness, who pays his fair share and then some, and doesn’t have to report in to a probation officer. For those who wonder if they will ever meet somebody again after being involved with an N/S/P/Cluster B, I can say with certainty that once you have processed the whole horrible experience and finally get really, really clear on what you want, what you deserve, what you need and what your boundaries are, you will find the person you are looking for. When you go through the afore-mentioned exercise(s), when you compare the list of what the new you wants, deserves, needs and what your boundaries are, and compare it to the old you, you will be staggered by how different the people you choose to get involved with and let become part of your life are.

    Liane:

    When I read your article, those 4 questions sum it up perfectly. So often, people on this site get caught up in assigning labels to the person they have been involved with. I’ve come to see that while the label helps us to understand on some level what we’ve been involved with, on the other hand the label gets in the way of our recovery because it keeps us from answering the fundamental question: “how does this relationship make me feel?”

    Your 4 questions lead someone who is the victim of one of these creatures directly to the question I’ve posed. Also, I think Dr Hare sums it up best by making the point that it doesn’t matter is somebody has all the criteria on his list — one or two of the criteria should be enough for a person to realize they are dealing with a disordered person and make tracks away from him.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 13 August 2009 @ 7:03pm

74. ErinBrockovich says:

    Matt:
    WELCOME HOME my dear…….So, so , so pleased you are ‘finding your way’.
    See….it all does work out the ‘way it should’.
    Be happy, safe and enjoy your life…..your a good man!
    XXOO

    (Report abusive comment)

    Thursday, 13 August 2009 @ 8:22pm

75. Dude says:

    Hi, I’m new here and don’t know if this is the write BB for advice, but I am stuck in a very confusing abusive relationship with my wife. She is Russian and I sponsored her under the spouse visa system. She is alluring, and a practicing christian, and says all the right things. BUT she can get upset over nothing, twist my innocent comments into something totally different, repeat this to others to make me look bad, and then claim I am abusing her and controlling and manipulating. I did try to cancel her visa behind her back and then felt sorry for her and wrote to the immigration department to allow her to stay. She suffered alot from this, and got high blood pressure and suffered a bad nervous condition. This made me wonder if I was responsible for alot of our relationship problems, as she continually tells me. She never admits she is wrong, never says sorry for anything she did to hurt me, and always says she does these things cause I do them to her! She has been clingy, which is sorta appealing but stressful at times. She seems to lack natural empathy and can torture me telling me I am crazy, my mother is crazy, it is genetic etc. and after having relationship counseling together she managed to convince the therapist I had mental problems and she had none! Problem is I do have some issues but I worry about her, showed her compassion every time I wanted to leave her and decided to stay with her, and she never seemed to reciprocate..

    She does all the wifely things though, but I am scared of her.

    Recently we had problems and I said I wanted to withdraw support for her visa (bad thing to do, but I am but a mortal). She started to get really nervous then left home and didn’t come back,

    Now I am begging her to come back and she is treating me as the manipulative controller. This is all too confusing….

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 7:22am

76. geminigirl says:

    Dear Dude, She definitely sounds like a sociopath to me!Run run Run from her! She is already messing with your mind, and causing you to “second guess” yourself.I think you should withdraw support for her Visa. She will only use you, suck you dry,{as they all do} and the minute she has what she wants, ie, a Visa, money, marriage to you, a nice job maybe, she will milk you dry! Your life will become a total nightmare.They are born actors,but you are right to be sared of her.She does NOT love you, she is using you She is Gaslighting you{please look this term up ,o r ask OXy or one of the older LF members to explain it to you}Letting you think YOU are the crazy one! These people, Narc/sociopaths} are expert actors, they can play the dutiful wife, christian, etc as long as it suits them. ITS ALL AN ACT!!She is trying to reel you in like a fish! RUN RUN RUN!!and dont look back! They are evil,they do NOT have our interests at heart, they are self serving parasites! Geminigirl.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 7:39am

77. Brilhancy says:

    Matt,

    I am so, so happy for you..and what a new life you are having…I strugled during 13 years of a 20 years marriage. I decide to end up because I had no other choice. After the separation I found out a lot more about my ex s (as usual in these cases) and have been struggling to heal in the last 7 years. A couple of months ago I found this site..and boy it has helped me a lot. I have done so much healing in the last 2 months which I could not have achieved in the last 7 years. All the knowledge I have acquired in here is already making me feel a completly different person. I lost a lot with the separation (financially) but I have managed to recover everything in double. So financially I am Ok and now I am also getting OK emotionally..but I still have no desire to meet a partner. I had a few attempts but I have not found anyone who makes me feel like sharing my life with. I do not know if I will ever have this desire again but it does not matter..I am feeling comfortable as it is right now. Leave your address and we will visit you..ha ha

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 7:54am

78. blueskies says:

    Matt:) I am thrilled to bits for you!xxx

    I am in a what might be called an isolated space at the moment, getting to grips with what I thought was or would be ‘loneliness’ (which actually feels more like PEACE, I think I had something mixed up there) I have stopped chasing my tail with people who make me feel bad and it’s funny because getting off the rollercoaster of trying to have relationships or be ‘loved’ by certain types of people has brought everything into perspective. I find that those who are true good friends are STILL true good friends, that I dont NEED anything that cant be found in myself, and that right now, not forever, I am content and kind of excited about how being me on my ‘own’ will unfold. I too have no desire for a partner right now… and that’s really okay. But when I do I want to choose to be with a human being who treats me with respect and kindness, just like you have you star!x

    I want to be the sort of person who can bring something good into a relationship too again:)

    BUT! It is so wonderful to hear about how well your relationship is going and that you got out and had a wonderful break and a job waiting for you when you got home!(fingers crossed and lots of white light and all that coming from this camp:)xxx

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 8:59am

79. NotYourDaddy says:

    Dude,

    - RUN!
    - Regain your sense of self
    - Regain you self-esteem
    - Protect yourself financially HARD!
    - Get new phone, don’t answer old one.
    - Move.

    Disconnect from the fantasy; she is an emotional vampire, and pretty devoid of real human emotion

    Actors. Actresses. Self-absorbed, confident, all about them.

    Stroked your ego at times. Sex was wild at times.

    Abuse, using you, and lack of showing real love is self-esteem crushing ALL the time.

    “seems to lack natural empathy”

    What kind of empathy do you expect ever to have in a relationship with her? fake artificial empathy?

    Compare what you currently think your self-worth vs. your sense of self-worth before the relationship.

    Then shake your head as to how you could have been so stupid, lick your wounds, pack, GTFO, and don’t look back.

    (geminigirl – totally. the emotionless self-absorbed are ACTING when they say things to you like “i love you”, but then asking for money, sex with others, lying to you.)

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 9:00am

80. blueskies says:

    Go NYD!:)xx

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 9:04am

81. NotYourDaddy says:

    lol thx blueskies.

    Being pissed off, to get back to who I am, helps much more than ruminating on “why?”

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 9:25am

82. blueskies says:

    Oh lordy, I get that:)x I can disappear up my own trumpet with the ‘whys’.. and often do!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 9:29am

83. OxDrover says:

    Dear NYD and Dude,

    Dude, she is manipulating you for a visa—-you have been suckered, because you are not the kind of person who can use others. This is fairly common with many foreign women who want a pass to the US. I’ve had several male friends who ended up in your shoes. RUN. Cancel her visa and do not have any contact with this woman ever again is my advice. DO NOT EVEN TALK TO HER or LISTEN to her. The big trick they use is to make it that it is the victim’s fault. It is NOT.

    Good advice NYD!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 10:04am

84. Rosa says:

    Dude:

    My brother’s wife is completely charming, and even witty in social settings. She also does all of the wifely and motherly things…….ON THE SURFACE.

    The bad news is she is also a con artist, raging psychopath, and child abuser with no conscience, guilt, empathy, or remorse for anyone but herself. Nothing at all below the surface except ice water running through her veins.

    Just know that female psychopaths can be just as nasty and dangerous as the male ones. Your situation is very serious, and this woman should NOT be underestimated.

    Please stop feeling sorry for her, and get rid of her ASAP.
    Hopefully, there are no children involved here.
    Anyway, Dude, welcome to LoveFraud. Love your name.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 11:13am

85. Dude says:

    Thanks for the replies..Not really what I wanted to hear though..

    I thought these things before, and my mum and even the priest in the church said the same things, but having lived with her she is complex. She genuinely is suffering, and everyone she has talked to tells me she loves me. I emailed her friends and boss back in Russia to check out some of her stories and they confirmed her stories were true and said she was a good person!

    She is doesn’t try to hide things from me and can be pretty naive in some ways.

    Her dad died when she was young and I suspect that screwed her up but she absolutely refuses to admit she has any prob’s.

    She knows I’m not very financial but still married me, so if she wants to take my money she picked the wrong target..I live in a rental flat!

    When I tried to cancel her visa she genuinely fell apart..

    Denial stage maybe, but by God she is complicated..

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 11:42am

86. OxDrover says:

    Dear Dude,

    Actually, they are NOT complicated, they are focused on one thing, what they “need” (want) for themselves but are EXPECTING YOU to supply. Okay, so she had some problems when she was a kid—big deal, most of us here have as well. That does NOT give her a PASS to blame others for her plight.

    It may not be what you WANT to hear but WE are not able to FIX someone else, they have to FIX themselves,a nd she is “fixing”herself by using you to get a VISA to US…this is a VERY common PLOY with foreign women.

    I can’t say as I blame them, Russia is a hard place to live, but at the same time, SHE is responsible for herself and she is NOT SHOWING COMPASSION OR GRATITUTE to you, but DEMANDING this and demanding that and projecting blame on to YOU.

    Her “love” consists of NEEDING YOU FOR A VISA and/or money. I’m sorry, but that is the way the disordered work.

    I tried to “fix” my psychopathic son for 30+ years, didn’t work, and many here have psychopathic parents (I do too) children, bosses, lovers, spouses, neighbors, etc. ALL THE SAME, blame the victim they are using. As long as we are in the “FOG” (FEAR, OBLIGATION AND GUILT) we keep on trying to make ourselves meet their demands.

    Brush this woman off like a spider on your arm before she bites you any worse is my suggestion and I bet a doughnut to a new Lexus that everyone here will say the same thing to you. We’ve been through the drama, trauma and being used as victims. That’s why we are here, to learn how to discard them anf fix the damage they ahve done to us, and to learn how to spot the next one that comes along.

    Read the back articles (there are a bunch) KNOWLEDGE=POWER to free you from the FOG. Good luck and God bless you.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 12:20pm

87. OxDrover says:

    ps Dude,

    Yes, she j”genuinely fell apart” when you canceled her visa, it is the VISA she wants and you are just a means to get it. “The truth will make you free, but first it will Pith you off”

    They do fall apart when their PRIZE is in jeapordy.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 12:22pm

88. Rosa says:

    Dude:

    “Her dad died when she was young and I suspect that screwed her up because she absolutely refuses to admit she has any probs.”

    You are doing it, Dude. You are making excuses for her, covering for her, and “filling in the blanks” in order to justify her behavior. My brother has done the EXACT same thing for his wife. In my opinion, this will only enable her to continue with more of the same, and you are the the one who carries the burden of the relationship. It’s not fair.

    You say there are people back in Russia who will endorse this woman and verify her stories. There are a lot of people who will endorse my brother’s wife, too. She’s a nursing instructor, and a damn good one, from what I hear. The thing is, these people are NOT in a close, personal relationship with her. Therefore, they do not see the cold, callous, and abusive side to her personality (see Dr. Leedom’s article above).

    I still suspect that the crying and “falling apart” at the notion of losing her visa are CROCODILE TEARS, and they are neither genuine nor sincere (pity play). It sounds like this woman also missed her opportunity to star in motion pictures.

    You say she did not marry you for $$$?? Maybe not. It sounds like she really likes her visa. But, what if another man comes along one day with more money? Will she stay with you, or will she be gone??

    You seem like a great man with a really good heart. Please proceed with extreme caution where this woman is concerned. Over time, this will play out. And, if she is wearing a mask, it will slip. But, you are already here at LoveFraud, so something must be a little off???
    Dude, I encourage you to keep reading, posting, and educating yourself on personality disorders.

    P.S. Just because something is NOT what you want to hear does not make it rubbish. The truth does not always come in a Tiffany box with a pretty blue bow. I hope you understand what I am trying to tell you here.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 12:54pm

89. Rosa says:

    Dude:

    “but by God, she is complicated.”

    Nobody is THAT complicated, Dude. I think what you may be experiencing is some crazy-making at the hands of your lovely wife.

    You have only posted twice on LoveFraud thus far, from what I can see.
    And I can already see you doubting yourself, your perceptions, and your own reality.

    At best, she is extremely unstable and fragile. At worst, she has a disorder of some kind. Either way, she does not seem able to carry her share of the emotional responsibilities in this relationship.

    I stand by my original post. Get rid of her ASAP.

    P.S. In fact, you said in your original post that she already left when you threatened to cancel her visa, and when you begged her to come back, she refused. Let her go!! You don’t want her back.
    P.S.S. And if she will bail on you when you talk about cancelling her visa, what will she do when she meets another man? I have a sneaking suspicion that men = stability for this woman. This is a preview of what is in store for you.
    Please do not be a sucker. Heed the warning signs and get out now. You deserve so much better.

    **Listen to YOUR mum, YOUR priest, and YOUR GUT!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 4:53pm

90. Dude says:

    Rosa

    it get’s abit more complicated. I talked to an immigration agent with her and he said if I did withdraw support for her visa she would appeal, could possibly claim all sorts of abuse from me, and then be allowed to stay in the country for one to two years pending an immigration tribunal hearing, then may get permanent residency under Family Violence (which BTW only needs her claims, and the statement from a couple of psychologists who support her story – and she has already seen a psychologist who claimed she was stuck in a cycle of violence with ME!).

    The immigration agent, who speaks Russian and is a friend on mine, recommended I not do this as it would get her to hate me and she could really make my life hell. He recommended I leave her be, and if I wanted after the compulsory one year separation period here in Australia divorce her..

    And tragically I am also stuck thinking I can’t get anyone else…

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 6:10pm

91. OxDrover says:

    Dear Dude,

    Since she is ACTING like a psychopath, I think you can assume she will continue to ACT like a psychopath and that is the kind of thing that a psychopath WOULD do.

    Your friend is probably right.

    However, since you are in the situation you are in, I suggest that you DISTANCE YOURSELF from her (do not speak to her, do not live with her, just NO CONTACT, and that means NONE. Let her go her way and you go yours. I know that might be difficult and you may feel used (and I think you probably were) for her to get a visa and residency in your country.

    There are hundreds (thousands?) of Russian women escaping Russia by becoming “mail order brides” to men all over the US and so far, out of the several dozen I know of NOT ONE has “worked out”—-but if Russia is in the shape I hear it is, I can’t say I might not want out of there myself.

    Don’t think “she” is the only one in the world you can “get”—find a woman who likes you for you—not for a visa or whatever she can get out of you.

    I’m a 62 year old widow (5 yrs) and I too was lonely and felt like no one would ever want me, I ended up being targeted by a Psychopath who wanted another “respectable” wife to cheat on. Broke my heart, but now, I realize being alone isn’t the same as “lonely” and I will NOT settle for less than the best if I ever do again have another relationship.

    As long as I felt “lonely” and miserable, I was vulnerable to the first guy to come along looking for a victim. NO MORE!!! I realize I can set my standards low enough and be married by tomorrow, but I do not intend to do that, I just raised them HIGHER! I deserve the best, and so do you!!!!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 6:24pm

92. ErinBrockovich says:

    Hey Dude:
    Welcome and congratulations on trying to find answers.
    I’ve been reading your posts and my heart feels for you.
    A bit of my 2Cents.
    It doesn’t really matter ‘what’ she is…..The behavior is there!
    See it, feel it and recognize it…..then DO SOMETHING.
    You do have choices. You can choose to remain and wonder and look for further ’signs’ and take the ‘beating’…..OR, you can go NO CONTACT….and protect yourself, your emotions and your feelings along with any property/things etc….
    We all have a story to tell, we all come from somewhere……NONE of our stories require us to be mean or abusive to anyone else. We may all be able to ‘explain away’ abuse or traits…….but at the end of the day….it’s still abuse/neglect/manipulations that we endure.
    The advice you have recieved here is great….you have had a lot of support.
    The times ahead are going to be tough. Don’t allow yourself to be victimized any further. Stand up, take control and see the ‘writing on the wall’. It’s in black!
    When we must turn situations in our heads, there is no end to doing that…..we can disguise anything that comes our way with some excuse or another.
    Listen to your friends, follow the law and keep finding strength wherever you can.
    The tradegedy of thinking you can’t ‘get’ anyone else is……..
    YOU DON”T NEED ANYONE ELSE!!!! You shouldn’t be thinking about that far down the line…….
    Once you allow yourself to be free, happy and clear in your thinking……you will attract someone perfect for YOU!
    When the TIME is right…..ONLY!
    This is a blessing…..hold on to it.
    Life has a way of teaching us….we can ignore the lessons being taught …BUT….they will come back around to get your attention……and your not in control of when!
    So…..get it……..learn them, and look further into yourself to see ‘what’ you contributed to your situation at hand. (I’m in no way blaming you……but we all play a roll)
    I encourage you to be NO CONTACT….it’s tough…..but necessary. If you ‘fall off the wagon’, there are lessons there to learn too.
    Stay strong, and stay in control of YOU!
    Good luck, take care of the ‘dude’.
    XXOO

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 8:16pm

93. shabbychic says:

    Oxy, I loved “As long as I felt “lonely” and miserable, I was vulnerable to the first guy to come along looking for a victim. NO MORE!!! I realize I can set my standards low enough and be married by tomorrow, but I do not intend to do that, I just raised them HIGHER! I deserve the best, and so do you!!!!

    I’m going to copy and paste that into my journal! Thanks!

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 8:31pm

94. Rosa says:

    Wow, Dude

    I think it is official. You have been played, and it seems like the situation is always more complicated when dealing with these types of individuals.

    Start backing away from this woman immediately. This is NOT a good situation for you to be in. Just let her go.
    Get a divorce, get the marraige annulled, whatever you need to do to get out of your current situation.

    “And tragically I am stuck thinking I can’t get anyone else…”

    I am not sure what you mean by this line. Are you saying that you don’t think you could find someone else to love?
    I find that very hard to believe. You are a good Christian man with a very good heart. I don’t know why you would say this, unless this woman has chiseled away at your self esteem, and manipulated you to the point of believing this about yourself?? I don’t believe it, and I don’t even know you.

    Your first priority should be to develop an exit plan to get your wife out of your life.

    Things will get better, Dude. You are in a tough situation right now, but things will get better.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 8:38pm

95. OxDrover says:

    Dear Chic,

    Glad you liked my little comment, and I have finally come to realize how TRUE it is. I could go down to the local wino-refuge/mission and bring me one of my very own home tonight—but WHAT would I have? MORE PROBLEMS? Of Course I would have more problems, and the Good Lord knows I don’t need any more problems.

    I DESERVE The very best—and sure, I was devestated by the loss of my husband and felt old, fat, ugly and “who would want me?” But I have come to realize that I am not just looking for a “warm body” if I ever have another loving relationship it will be a GOOD one, I know what it is like to have a bad one adn I sure don’t want another one. I was fortunate to have a good one for twenty years, but if I never find another one, that’s okay….the best relationship I have now is with ME!!! I don’t need a “man” or any other person to make me complete. ONE IS A WHILE NUMBER, NOT JUST HALF OF TWO.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 10:13pm

96. PInow says:

    Dude, None of us should be telling you how to behave and what life choices to make based on what you’ve shared. I think those you trust and those who are in the professional field will help you sort things out. There are a lot of things you shared that make me think there is much more than meets the eye. For one, don’t underestimate the power of cultural differences.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Sunday, 16 August 2009 @ 10:51pm

97. shabbychic says:

    I have to log off now.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 12:16am

98. Dude says:

    Thankyou to everyone for welcoming me and trying so hard to help me, and I dfon’t even know anyone here. Your advice does sound very similiar to the advice from my close friends, but like PInow says, there is much more than meets the eye.

    I had issues before meeting her, and tended to be a -ve person, and haven’t had much relationship experience….I notice when I am +ve and optimistic with her she is a different animal…course she can still be pig headed at times but she seems a whole healthier then.

    When we have problems she stays up reading late into the night and reads a lot on relationship counseling type stuff, not really the sort of stuff someone who was totally sociopathic would read.

    Her friends have told her not to contact me, and that I am toxic to her, and that if she stays with me it will destroy her nervous system…..

    I sense we both have issues.

    Another strange thing, we have a strong psychic connection with each other ie. she will phone me the second I go to phone her, etc. etc. I tend to think maybe the universe put us together to help each other through our issues, as painful as it is for both of us…and I don’t think all her suffering is crocodile tears, as when I told her once I didn’t think she loved me she pushed me away and run outside and I found her hidden somewhere and crying…..I really think she is a victim of abuse and is acting it out with me and every other partner she ever meets, her history strongly suggests this to me…her strategies have not made her successful or happy in this life, hardly a successful sociopath…

    ?

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 12:42am

99. Jan says:

    I’m glad I found this site. It’s been very therapeutic reading the the excellent posts from people who understand what it is like enduring the craziness of being with a psychopath.
    I can tell you strait up that it would be alot easier posting if there was a spell checker.

    I’ve been slowly waking up out of a long deliberate denial, and am completely disgusted at not only him but myself.

    I need a therapist, but how am I to find one who is trained and sensitive to these issues?

    If any of you have a suggestion, I’m all eyes.

    (Report abusive comment)

    Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 12:57am

100. Tilly says:

     DUDE!
     (I love your name!) KEEP COMING BACK Whether you stay with her or not…WE NEED YOU!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 6:08am

101. Dude says:

     Thanks Tilly, you seem very kind people here. Problem is, no-one can see everything I’ve seen, only hear what I tell them, and if she was writing on this post maybe people would say I was a sociopath?

     All I know, life is complex, and wisdom does not come easily. Leaving someone is often too easy, hence the high divorce rate..If everyone who is in pain ditches the person causing them pain who will stop the pain growing?

     I don’t know, but I tend to think our society makes sociopaths, both by the competition, people as commodities and status mentallity and then by the ‘if someone is a liability, ditch them’ way of thinking…

     Maybe I’ll get screwed over cause of my compassion…don’t know,

     Talked to my Russian immigration agent friend about her tonight, and he talked to her a long time after she left me, and he has seen all types of scammers and he said he believes she loves me, but that she felt I was controlling her with the visa, and now she is angry…He thought she genuinely came here to have a family with me..he also told me Russian women can be a pain in the a** but you have to learn how to handle them…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 6:32am

102. Dude says:

     oh yeah, I do remember one significant time she felt empathy for me, after I had a bike accident she was nearly hysterical and feared I could die like her mum (she died in 2008 when my wife was in Australia with me) and took a lot of consoling….and yes, she IS high maintenance

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 6:40am

103. geminigirl says:

     Im sorry, but I feel that the only reason she freaked out over your bike accident was she might lose her meal-ticket. Sociopaths are EXPERT at faking any emotion, including Hysterics, grief, sadness, love,you name it.SHE took a lot of consoling, well, D,oh, shouldnt she have beenconsoling you?Save your compassion for yourself, and for genuine people, not fakes like her.If she is high maintenance now, she will only get worse! RUN RUN RUN away from her,-she is BAD NEWS! She does not love you,she only wants her visa, when she gets it,she will kick you to the curb if she meets and suckers in someone richer than you.geminigirl

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 8:20am

104. OxDrover says:

     Dude, you said you do not have a lot of “relationship experience”—-I also am assuming that you met this woman on the internet—-the internet “dating” market is FILLED with people looking for a way to scam others, and even if you were to meet a “nice” person on the internet, any “long distance” relationship where you don’t get time to spend with the person in many different situations and REALLY get to KNOW them before marriage/sex/relationship there is no way to really find out what they are like. For a week or month or even a year, a psychopath who is trying to “use you” (for a visa or whatever) can pretend to like/love you, but then the trouble starts.

     Even if this woman is not a psychopath, it sounds like your relationship with her is NOT A GOOD ONE FOR YOU OR HER either. If she is a psychopath it is a waste of your time to try to fix it. If she is NOT a psychopath, it seems to me from what you have written that any trust she had for you is destroyed and that you really have no idea of how to have a good relationship with her in any case (cultural differences, you not having much relationship experience etc)

     I suggest that maybe you might want to work on your own issues before embarking on another relationship (maybe some therapy) and that just letting this woman go her own way at this point (psychopath or not) and start over after you address your own issues.

     All of us here have had our own issues and that is one reason we ended up with Psychopaths, or if we didn’t have issues before the psychopath we did afterwards, so either way, it starts off about them, but ends up being about fixing ourselves. You might start by reading some of the older articles in the archives. There is a good deal of information in there. Good luck.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 17 August 2009 @ 9:05am

105. muldoon. says:

     felt sick reading this..know every bit of it is true..especially the sorry to retain the relationship..once his feet were back under my table and remorse or guilt or empathy was gone also…I feel utterly sick..

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 18 August 2009 @ 8:06pm

106. ErinBrockovich says:

     JAN:
     Welcome…..Dont be disgusted, rejoice……rejoice at the fact you are seeking and getting answers to your (god knows how long) questions of “WHY’, is it me? Crazymaking behaviors.
     It’s all in the way we choose to look at it…..your glass is NOW half full…..go ahead girl…..fill er up! Fill er up with knowledge…..education and awareness….empower yourself to do something about YOUR situation.
     It does get better…..it’s a long arduous journey of pain and emotions……but let me tell you……THE RAINBOW AWAITS…..it’s just now the colors you imagined it would be…..
     Finding a therapist is a trial and error process…..I happened to attain one who had seen my ex a handful of times…..and I PRESENTED the idea to him, based on what another psych had discussed with me……Every week for 2 years, I have educated HIM……and he tosses the info back at me……He is open to my ideas and exploring them. He gets it….now.
     Read the articles, educate yourself, and go in empowered. Interview them, ask about experiences…..you will either click or not…..you should know right away.
     There are also referrals through Donna here in a few areas and on the “high conflict institute’ website.
     Otherwise……my experience has been a good one with LF therapy!!!!!
     Stay strong….know you are NOT alone…..and read, read, read…..then plan an exit strategy if and when YOU are ready….
     I wish you peace tonight..
     XXOO

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 1:39am

107. Brilhancy says:

     Dude,

     I met my ex S at the Company where I was working overseas. We were together for two years and living in perfect harmony. I then decided to come to Australia (on a job transfer) and he came with me. I loved Australia so much and we decided to stay. Here we had our 2 children and he always wanting to marry me. I was very reluctant in getting married for no other reason than the fact that I am not a believer in marriage, but in mutual respect). After 7 years together, having 2 children together and living a perfect family life, I gave in and married him. That was my big mistake. I became his property then and all the abuses started. I endured another 13 years together and things only got worse, to bad, to terrible, to dangerous, to violent to craziness, to abuses, manipulation and all sort of things until the day I decided to put a stop on everything. No matter how many adjustments we make in life to please a S, we are never capable in pleasing them, nothing is never enough, nothing is ever right, nothing is ever fulfilling to them, no matter how much love and understanding you give them, it is never enough, you give your blood, you give your soul (not mentioning the bank account) and this is also not enough. They become a torment in our lifes and make us loose all sense of dignity, direction, goals, happiness, self-steem. If I only knew what I know now I would have saved at leat 10 of the 13 years of torment and anguish. Trying to making things working with a disturbed person is a waste of time. My exS also used those sort of argument to have my attention.. Self pit. Any responsible and mature adult knows better that life has many adversities and we do not need to make other people’s life a hell because of things that happened to us in the past. We all had past events in our lifes. Those should be reasons to try to achieve peace with whomever we decided to share a life together, not the other way around.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 5:42am

108. OxDrover says:

     Dear Muldoon,

     I am so glad, SO GLAD!! That you are back ehre reading and posting sweetie. Of course as soon as he got his feet back under your table he started back to being the “same old psychopath” and it will ALWAYS be that way as they do NOT CHANGE, they only fake “change” for a little while.

     How is your health? I have been continually praying for you and you have been so much in my thoughts. How are your children? Please let us know know you are. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you. Oxy

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 9:30am

109. justabouthealed says:

     Dude,

     You are right, we don’t know everything about your situation. That is why it is good for you to read and read and see what applies and what does not.

     Let me tell you a little about me, as a woman who was abused as a child, all that.

     I have come to realize for myself that helping another to “heal” only happens in HAPPY and POSITIVE relationships. My husband helped me heal from abuse, etc. by being the strong mentally healthy person he is. And I did NOT cause pain and turmoil for him, most of the time, with a couple of notable exceptions, but even then, he quickly got his head on straight about my sh*t. He stayed because he LOVES me, not because he wanted to fix me. He loved me as I was, and was so secure in himself that he would just wait for me to get back to being pleasant to be around, but he NEVER tried to help me understand myself, he NEVER criticized me, he NEVER told me I need to change, etc. etc. I guess he just focused on what he loved and ignored the rest as though it was not his concern.

     Healthy relationships are what promote healing. Being surrounded by people with good values, ethics, boundaries.

     One of my core values used to be “helping”. It still is, but now I realize that mostly I help my just validating what someone is feeling, being a witness, and modeling healthy boundaries, which means I don’t take on the work the person needs to do themselves. My husband refused to do the work *I* needed to do. He did what he was supposed to do…..LOVE, ADMIRE, CHERISH who I was. He didn’t give a damn if I changed or not. He was HAPPY with me. He did not make MY business (growing up) his business.

     I believe that if both parties are unhappy and in turmoil in a relationship, they can’t help each other grow. Instead, they reinforce bad relationship behaviors in each other, crossing boundaries, focusing on NEEDING each other instead of WANTING each other. If ONE is truly healthy and happy in the relationship, then healing can occur.

     Best wishes to you.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:13am

110. justabouthealed says:

     I should say healing can occur if a true personality disorder is not involved. Those don’t heal.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:14am

111. Rosa says:

     Brilhancy says:

     “If I only knew what I know now I would have saved at least 10 of the 13 years of torment and anguish.”

     Yes, I also wasted a lot of years with a disordered individual (unbeknownst to me at the time).
     I have always said that the one thing I would like to have back from that experience is my TIME.
     But, I have no regrets, because that bad experience taught me a lot about relationships, and what love IS NOT. And, I am grateful for that.

     These days, my time is PRECIOUS to me.
     This life is a gift, it goes by in a minute, and it can also be very fragile. None of us really knows how much time we have on this earth. We like to think we have some idea, and we make plans for our future. But, only God really knows how much time we have.

     Life is too short to waste with a cubic zirconia, when you can have a real diamond!!!

     …..And that “diamond” I am talking about does not even need to be another person, it could be YOU!

     Hope I cheered somebody up (besides myself).

     And, I also hope I lit a fire under someone who is currently in an abusive relationship with a S/P/N, who is “hanging in there”, hoping things will get better.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:19am

112. justabouthealed says:

     Muldoon…
     I echo everything Oxy said.

     The fact that you wrote what you wrote is HUGE. Do you know how long it took some of us to “get that?” You’ve got it. You are facing the truth. That takes brains and courage and good values at your core. It is the hardest step.

     You gave your love and trust to someone who didn’t deserve it and who will never deserve it. Yet that too is good news. Some people (like him) have NO capacity to love, to trust, to have a conscience, to have empathy. YOU DO!!!

     Keep focused on the positives about you, and the negatives about him. Right now #1 priority has to be putting on your oxygen mask first (as they say on jets) in the case of an emergency, because until you are okay, you can’t save anyone else, including your children. Focus on yourself, on keeping getting stronger, don’t worry about the past. All we have is today and the future and your future is going to keep getting better and better.

     You can do this!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:20am

113. justabouthealed says:

     Dude….

     One more thing. My husband DID have an issue of his own. Alcohol addiction. He hid it from me so successfully that I didn’t know about it for 38 years. When I finally healed and was strong, he finally confessed. And I realized it was HIS problem….clearly, I hadn’t even know about it! (I had a job where I was gone a couple of days a week…that is when he would drink). And guess what….he’s been sober now for 8 months, not a single drink, the longest time in 49 years he tells me, and he is confident he will not start again. I think his healing was promoted by mine.

     But the common thread in our healings is the healing was done by the person who needed to heal…and the other person didn’t get involved other than loving the positive and ignoring the rest.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:29am

114. Rosa says:

     Revision:

     “And, I also hope I lit a fire under ANYONE who is currently in an abusive relationship…”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:34am

115. muldoon. says:

     Hey Oxdrover and just abouthealed..in fact everyone…Yes I had the head in the sand a while, because he no longer sulked for as long, and I now realise he just changed his mode of operandi to not be so blatant, I actually thought for a while it may be ok. But I now am sure its only fine half the time to suit him, and should another sucker come along, or the mood take him, he will once more exhibit the utter disregard he previously has showmn me and the kids.and if then it suited him to want to return he would employ all the usual bullying tactics, smear me to friends, threaten and damage my property maybe even me. Im gunna be sticking around again as I figure out how to extracate myself from this again.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:39am

116. justabouthealed says:

     Sounds like you have WAY too much too ignore, and that it can’t and isn’t a happy relationship. Ergo, I think, healing cannot happen and if you love her and want the best for her, release her. All you have to do is decide what you want in a relationship, and refuse to accept less. And if she has already left, it is clear you have already made some boundaries clear, and she has realized you won’t put up with crap and so she left. If enough people do that, THEN she will really begin to heal, if she is capable of it.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:44am

117. justabouthealed says:

     GREAT MULDOON!!!! YOU SOUND STRONG! Much stronger than I was when I got out from a bad relationship so I’m sure YOU WILL MAKE IT!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 11:45am

118. Dude says:

     justabouthealed you said it. That is the truth…

     I read a lot and I think she may be a bit of a narcissistic PD, but anyway the book I read said what you said, people with charisma can live successfully with people like my wife. I believe it, I can see she is different with different people or when I am more confident.

     Ironically her friends have given her the same advice others here have given me, ‘avoid all contact with him/her’, ‘get him/her out of your life’, ‘he/she is abusive and will NEVER change’….

     I personally am changing, and I have seen change in her, up until recently when things got quite bad.

     Can we grow together? In the past we sought out spiritual work together, and we were getting somewhere, but I do make many mistakes and justabouthealed, you mentioned them in the ‘do not’s’, ’cause that is what I usually did.

     Anyway, I don’t want to command the floor here on this BB, I am getting abit tired of all this anyway, so others are free to be the centre of attention for awhile…sure your problems are as bad or worse than mine…God bless

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 19 August 2009 @ 7:47pm

119. Dude says:

     BTW just got off the phone with my wife after an hour and a half phone call. Yikes, she is a very disturbing manipulator! I can see it more clearly now, she mixes christianity in with some really sick ideas, and when I challenged her that what she was doing wasn’t christian she said I wasn’t a christian to judge her and only God could and that I now had stressed her and that I should feel bad for having done that!

     She didn’t care less that I was suffering or anything…only herself…..

     Much as I hate to say it I really think I got to cut her loose,,,,she is impossible to have a relationship with.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 25 August 2009 @ 8:05am

120. OxDrover says:

     Dear Dude,

     Her response to you, quote,:

     “she mixes christianity in with some really sick ideas, and when I challenged her that what she was doing wasn’t christian she said I wasn’t a christian to judge her and only God could and that I now had stressed her and that I should feel bad for having done that!”

     that is straight from the “psychopath’s play book” and if you look at it a bit you can see the components of twisting/using something “good” (Christianity) and paintin gher self with that, then when you don’t agree with her, she immediately twists it again to defend herself “only God could (judge her) and to try to place the blame on YOU “I should feel bad for having done that: “how I stressed her” etc.

     Your conclusion is correct too “she didn’t care that I was suffering, ….only HERSELF.

     In posts a few days ago you were saying that you weren’t perfect yourself====you were right about that two, NONE of us here are, BUT and it is a large “but”—that does not give the psychopaths a pass to abuse us….and it does not mean that we should “settle for an abusser” because we think we can’t get something better.

     After my husband died, I felt alone, old, ,lonely, alone, fat, alone, ugly, alone, etc. and I was prime meat for a psychopath and one came along. I fell hook line and sinker.

     Dude, you are also right SHE IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A REALATIONSHIP WITH. Get rid of her. No ocontact, don’t talk to or listen to her again, let her get her visa residence or whatever she is after, but in the mean time, work on YOURSELF. take care of you, and heal from this encounter with “the dark side” Good luck, dude!!!! God bless.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 25 August 2009 @ 8:24am

121. kim frederick says:

     This was a very scary article for me. I have to say that I identified with the traits of the abuser. Shudder. I still DO NOT believe I am one of THEM. I believe that I have some BPD features, but that I have been in a relationship with a full-blown P. I am not justifying my behavior, as I certainly don’t want to repeat it. I know I have my own issues and they need work, however I continue to need support and healing from other survivors. I know it isn’t the job of this forum to lend support to BPD sufferers, but I would like to say that I think there is a tendency to lump BPD’s in with P/S/N’s. I can understand why, there are some over lapping issues, but I want to stress that, at least in my case, I am not intentionally cruel, am not a pathological liar, am not a cheat, I do experience guilt and remorse, and feel empathy, sometimes to a fault. Just had to add my two cents. I’m grateful that LF is here. Hope everybody’s doing OK today.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:22am

122. skylar says:

     Kim,
     anyone who is in a relationship with a P can end up with most of those triats.
     1. The degree to which they cling to those whom they abuse.
     2. Their high level of anxiety and other negative emotions.
     3. Lack of abuse of strangers and non-family members.
     4. Lack of criminal arrest for other offenses.

     Empathy to a fault is the key.
     I think that is what our N parents/family create in us to make us perfect N-supply. If you don’t turn into an N, you become N-supply.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:36am

123. kim frederick says:

     Thank you so much, Skylar. Those four points REALLY scared me.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:46am

124. justabouthealed says:

     “she mixes christianity in with some really sick ideas, and when I challenged her that what she was doing wasn’t christian she said I wasn’t a christian to judge her and only God could and that I now had stressed her and that I should feel bad for having done that!”

     How funny….She tells you only God can judge, then she immediately judges you and tells you how you should feel.

     Well, that makes sense…they think they ARE God!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:55am

125. OxDrover says:

     Dear Kim,

     Everyone in the world with a conscience has done things we feel remorse for, and that doesn’t make us BPD, and keep in mind there are BPD TRAITS and the full blown BPD (which on a high leven is very close to the behavior or a PPD) so keep in mind that there probably isn’t a one of us here who has not done something that taken in ISOLATION would sound like we might have the traits.

     It is very difficult for anyone to “diagnose” themselves with any mental disorder or illness. So I wish you would just quit worrying about the diagnosis which was “hung” on you by someone else who might have been mistaken—who might have mistaken the “crazy making” behavior that we many of us go through when we are in HORRIBLE PAIN from the psychopaths attacks on our very souls and sanity.

     Sugar, I have behaved like a “raving nut cake” and even my last therapist thought I was a paranoid schizopherenic because my tale was so “crazy” and I had to take him court documents and a witness. It didn’t even insult me that he asked for “proof”—I KNOW HOW CRAZY IT SOUNDS AND AT TIMES HOW CRAZY I ACTED! LOL

     I too have had “too much empathy” and have given too much, have panic’d when I felt like I was losing my grip on those that I loved—my P son, my enabling toxic mother! I felt totally wiped out when my P X-BF and I were breaking up.

     Now you quit worrying about the BPD “label” and don’t make me get the SKILLET after you! LOL (((hugs))))

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 10:07pm

126. NotYourDaddy says:

     skylar,

     Your last statement is the sums everything up.

     You stay in the game of Predator/Prey if you stay true to stereotypical behaviors.

     The “game-changing” behaviors (too many to cover), painful as they may be to implement once the hurt is acknowledged, work!

     Learned so many terms here recently, thanks LF. How can I explain “N-dipping” any place but here?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 10:36pm

127. NotYourDaddy says:

     to kim frederick,

     I don’t think BPD is anything close to what a P/S/N is like.

     Those with Borderline disorder feel too strongly, there’s the love/hate splitting that develops as relationships come and go/wax and wane. It’s been said here before that the attraction to P/S/N types is that they can never get close enough to them. The constant struggle, caused because the P/S/N lacks human emotions besides hate and greed, but will mostly try not to let that show, makes this closeness impossible, but keeps the relationship going.

     Holding out hope, servicing Fear Obligation and Guilt.

     Not a good way to live, but it takes admission and willpower to break out.

     A could good message boards for BPD:
     http://www.mdjunction.com/borderline-personality
     http://www.borderlinepersonality.ca/board/

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 10:48pm

128. skylar says:

     Notyourdaddy,
     You can’t tease me with terms like “game changing behaviors” and “N-dipping” and then leave me hanging.
     That’s what the P used to do! Tease and leave!
     LOL!
     Seriously, explain, cuz I want to learn.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 5 September 2009 @ 11:44pm

129. NotYourDaddy says:

     lol! okay okay skylar.

     I should have been more clear.

     “N-dipping” is narcissistic dipping. Means when someone has broken off a relationship with a (P?)/S/N and they miss the fake love…. and so reestablish contact with the PSN.

     “game changing behaviors” — No Contact is a game changing behavior, as is not responding to the P/S/N (going ‘dull’). So is Narcissistic injury (but you don’t want to do that….fragile soulless (and now wounded) egos will lash out double!)

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:47am

130. skylar says:

     ooooh!
     I like the N-dipping word
     also like game changing behaviors.
     Words have sooooooo much power. when you give something a name, it gives it cohesion in your mind. It creates a category and you can put things into it, like a drawer or a file cabinet. Without words we would be in a fog.

     When I didn’t know the definition of a sociopath, I didn’t realize I was living with one. Now that I have a comprehensive definition, I can spot one a mile away.

     N-dipping (verb): to miss fake love. the occasional foray into the arms of a psychopath in order to be lied to. The attraction to dangerous sociopaths. Engaging in life risking behavior in order to experience false love or excitement. Getting an attention fix from your xP because you are lonely.

     Game-changing (adjective): the quality of a behavior or move which creates a shift in the opponent’s strategy or thinking process. A quality of a behavior or move which plants the seed of change in your own strategy or thinking process.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 1:03am

131. NotYourDaddy says:

     skylar -

     Great definitions.

     Yes they (words) do give the power to explain … instead of “well, they’re like, …um, sometimes it’s worse, then…” you can just say “sociopath”. But first you have to know what the word means!

     Is their a glossary here?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 1:27am

132. Jen2008 says:

     Oxy said: “there probably isn’t a one of us here who has not done something that taken in ISOLATION would sound like we might have the traits……It is very difficult for anyone to “diagnose” themselves with any mental disorder or illness………..quit worrying about the diagnosis which was “hung” on you by someone else who might have been mistaken—…….AND AT TIMES HOW CRAZY I ACTED! LOL”

     Exactly. And also a good reason for US not to PUBLICLY (in real life) hang the label on others unless there is pretty extreme concrete ONGOING behavior (across the board in the life of the person in question), and not do it without serious thought of the consequences to the other person. Yes, I know many or even most of the things posted here sound pretty clear cut as far as there being some sort of a serious disorder involved. But, on the other hand, I have been reading here for a coupla years now and sometimes some people do come on board and their story and complaints does come across like the typical marriage/ relationship gone bad (everything was basically great with just general problems like everybody else) THEN he cheated and done me wrong so he HAS to be a sociopath!!! And they are running around telling everybody the dude was a sociopath and that label is a very serious one.

     I have seen more than one case over the past year (in real life) where people have filed TPO’s against their soon to be ex, based on NO physical violence or any threats or anything of real substance, but just more because they were being vindictive (didn’t want the ex around or wanted to try to prevent them from seeing the kids so they alleged “fear”) and because they were simply pissed off the man left them for another woman. If a person is looking for a job a TPO that is in effect will likely PREVENT them from being hired PERIOD regardless of their credentials, if it is a job requiring a background check. Some of our behavior and actions can have SERIOUS consequences for another person, so although I am definitely in favor of TPO’s when warranted, that is NOT something to take lightly in obtaining against another party.

     Yes, children of REAL sociopaths are better off without involvement with that parent. But what about the parents who think their spouse is FINE for parentlhood up until the day he/she dumps them, then SUDDENLY that person wants the parent to have NO CONTACT with the kid. It DOES happen. I have seen a case lately that has had tragic consequences due to a vindictive ex-wife. (and the children WANTED to see their Father but told others they were AFRAID to call him because it made their mother so mad).

     I’m just saying, be RESPONSIBLE in your own actions, then perhaps Judges would not be so hesitatnt to see our side of it when dealing with actual socios if they did not see so much of this other non responsible side of it too. How are they to really know who is telling the truth and who is being responsible and who is not? I think that is why they take more of a middle of the road approach.

     I know this is not gonna be a popular post, but I used to also be a person (fresh out of the relationship) who saw a socio or psychopath behind every bush, in every behavior of others that seemed a bit amiss. I’m just saying, look at Oxy’s post above. Would WE want others to not consider other possibilities for our “odd” behavior and automatically assume and tell others WE are sociopaths? I realized I was beginning to recover when I gradually began stopping automatically assuming all behavior (men cheating on their wives, or the occasional lie, or someone acting out in some other manner etc.) was due to sociopathy and psychopathy and started considering maybe some other stressor or mental health condition (that just might be treatable) could be involved, or maybe no mental health condition at all, but just relationships that weren;t working out.

     Again, I think some behavior is so devious and manipulative and evil it would be hard NOT to think sociopath or psychopath. But some is not but falls more in the realm of ordinary people who occasionally do crappy things. I just hope people who have been involved with a socio or psycho and go thru the “s or n behind every bush phase”–and I went thru it too–do go on to regain their compassion for others and their ability to consider other possibilities and to cut others some slack sometimes (like we want to be cut slack due to our ptsd), and that they do not remain hardnosed and bitter and unable to give an inch on any issue due to “boundaries”–which sometimes results in them unable to give consideration to OTHERS feelings and boundaries. I personally know a person I just absolutely refuse to be around anymore (and plenty of others feel the same), because she uses her “respect my boundaries” mantra so much that people are afraid to sneeze around her lest they be bitched out for violating one of her boundaries. Ok, off my soap box now.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 7:45am

133. BloggerT7165 says:

     Jen2008,

     I thought that your post was excellent and right on the money. I especially liked your next to last and last paragraph. Robert Hare and David Kosson wrote an article called “A Primer on Psychopathy” that you might like. It is at http://www.aftermath-surviving.....urces1.php

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 8:10am

134. OxDrover says:

     Dear Jen,

     Absolutely, the main thing about psychopaths is that their PATTERN of behavior over a LONGER PERIOD OF TIME is CONSISTENTLY manipulative and UNFEELING.

     Another “problem” in some of these relationships where one or both cry “victim” is that BOTH those people are manipulative and psychopathic….alternately being victim and abuser. Or one is a psychopath and one just an ordinary “manipulator” but NOT psychopathic in what would “qualify” as psychopathic by most even “loose” defninitions.

     Every one of us has things about us that we should be or are “ashamed” of that behavior, that we should have guilt about, that we should not do in the future…and whether or not we have or have had, or do feel that REMORSE, SHAME and/or GUILT defines whether we are psychopathic or not.

     I totally agree that we should not go about our lives pointing fingers and saying “Suzie or John are psychopaths!” when we have observed their behavior. I think we SHOULD say at least within our own minds, “Suzie or John’s behavior is deceptive/unkind/dishonest/illegal/not wise/dangerous/risky ” etc or whatever label applies in that case.

     Suzie or John may or may not be a psychopath, but their BEHAVIOR is not something we would want to (A) do (B) have done to us or (C) something that would make us want to trust them.

     When we (or anyone) engages in behavior that is not honest, we should not be suprised if that behavior doesn’t have untoward consequences. Sometimes very serious consequences to ourselves and also consequences to others.

     For example, if we drive drunk we may wreck our car, go to jail, get in an accident and hurt ourselves, BUT in addition to the consequences to ourselves, there may be consequences to others. We may injure another person or kill them in an wreck, or lose our job and not be able to support our children, or because of this wreck our marriage and family splits apart.

     Choosing to EVER drive drunk is an unwise choice for anyone. We all make various unwise choices from time to time, but a PATTERN of deliberate choices without regard to the consequences to others, without any sense of responsibility, without any remorse, or even enjoying the control exerted over others, tends, to me, at least, show that the person is at the very least untrustworthy, has poor impulse control, does not consider consequences to themselves and/or others in chosing behavior….and that is not a person I want in my life.

     If you look at a 10-30 item list of TRAITS of behavior that show a PATTERN over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME, an ATTITUDE about that behavior, you SHOULD I think be able to decide for yourself if this person is an asset or a negative in YOUR life.

     I have a great deal of empathy for “victims” of others’ bad behavior, I also have a great deal of empathy for “victims” of just plain “bad luck” that leaves someone injured or traumatized.

     Working for several years with (mostly adolescents) who were brain or spinal cord injured, most of them in vehicle accidents showed me that even the most gravely injured (quads and poaras) after the initial period of total helplessness, still have to come to terms and accept responsibities for their own lives—my job was to teach them how to manage their condition and to help mostivate them to do so. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t work so well.

     Some patients chose to become “chronic victims” and “chronically helpless” wanting others to take responsibility for them and their lives. They continually sought pity from others and made unwise choices.

     Other patients in as bad or worse conditions, took responsibility for their lives and led successful and healthy and happy lives even within the constraints of a wheel chair.

     Some patients with spinal cord injury focused on “it isn’t my fault” (and maybe it wasn’t) but the point was that, while it might not be their “fault” they were in a wheel chair, they WERE IN A WHEEL CHAIR and continually blaming it on someone else, focusing on what was unfairly DONE TO them, kept them from living as good a life as they could have lived.

     We, I think, must also realize that while it is NOT “fair” that we were targeted by a psychopath, the damage the relationship did to us is real, it is in the past, and while we may have some financial deficits, emotional deficits, etc. as a result of that “unfair” assault, we still have to acknowledge the reality of it and move on with what we have left—or we risk becoming a “chronic victim” who is unable to move on.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 9:17am

135. fireflys says:

     I struggle with the who’s fault, am I playing a victim or not. I will admit I can be abusive in relationships I have been physically violent with my ex N. The difference for me is I have and do take responsibilty for my actions I do feel shame and remorse.

     He has used the system against before had me arrested and had a protection order even though he knew I was no threat to him and he had given me a concusion, strangled me and threatened to kill me during said incident I went to jail for. They are very good at playing victim and working the system in their favor. He has threatened to take the kids away from me even though I know he does not want them. I have never tried to get him arrested or even thaught about keeping the kids from him.

     I still struggle with my own demons and he used that against me at all opportunities. I have paid dearly for mhy mistakes and he refuses to this day to admit he did anything wrong, even says he would do it again. I think these traits distinguish the perpetual abuser and the person who has used bad decisions and out of control behaviours. The ability to take responsibilty for actions is crucial to weed out the narcissists and the sociopaths from other people.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:17pm

136. justabouthealed says:

     Oxy, you are right as usual! Anger is really refusing to accept reality. If it is a reality you CAN change, then it can serve to motivate you to help make the world a better place. So anger that created MADD (Mothers against drunk driving) was productive.

     But anger about realities you cannot change…(I’m so mad that this guy can’t feel empathy and that he emotionally raped me) (I should NOT be in this wheel chair, life is so unfair)….only hurts you.

     Goes back to the serenity prayer. Knowing what you can change, having the courage to do so, and accepting what you can’t change, and having the courage to accept that.

     I think I have mentioned before that I have a bladder “bag” due to a disease where I had to have my urinary bladder removed. I surely wish that had not happened. NONETHELESS, I can see some positives, even while I continue to deal with the negatives. Being able to “pee” standing up is great in an outhouse! Handy when skiing. I NEVER have to get up to “pee” during the night, and if I’m sick I can stay in bed around the clock if I want to. When it is cold, I have a nice warm spot on my belly…..the list goes on and on. Is it hard to deal with? Do I hate it? Yes, but I can still see the positives. That is when you know you have moved past the anger and humor helps!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:34pm

137. BloggerT7165 says:

     Firefly,

     Also keep in mind there is a difference between “fault” and responsibility. If I leave my house unlocked and the doors open while I am at work all day and get robbed it is not my “fault” that I got robbed it is the robbers fault (just like it is the abusers fault). However I can take “responsibility” for learning from the experience and trying to minimize the chances it will happen again (within reason) such as closing and locking my doors, etc.

     If I have been abusive to someone and they have been abusive as well so it is a mutually violent relationship then I am at fault for my own abusive behaviors as well as responsible for learning from the experience to both avoid abusing others in the future and trying to minimize the chances that I will get into another relationship like that one.

     One big difference is that chronic abusers often say that they feel sorry for what they do yet they keep doing it. If someone truly feels shame and remorse (or the typical I love you honestly) then they would change their behavior.

     So I agree that the ability to take responsibilty is one thing but that can be faked. The true test is to both take responsibility and change the behavior.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:45pm

138. justabouthealed says:

     BloggerT…the difference between responsibility (the ability to respond) and “fault” or blame was key to my healing.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 12:57pm

139. OxDrover says:

     Blogger, VERY well said!

     JAH: Yep, right on! You must have been reading my mind, I started to use MADD as a positive outcome of anger! anger can motivate us to try to help others avoid what pain we have been through (such as MADD) and BTW I totally agree with them and as far as I am concerned DWI is as bad as first DEGREE MURDER! Ought to be hanged.

     I thinkk of the many things “worng” in this world, the hungry and sick children, the abused children, the environment, the psychopaths in office in this country and others, drunk driving, drug addiction, crime, domestic violence, and so on and on and ON! I can’t fix them all, and if I dwell all the time on the unfairness and the pain caused by all of these things I will be HOPELESS, the task is way tooooooo big for any one person, or even any one-thousand persons, or one million persons, but what I try to do is to do what I can where I can. “Random acts of kindness” someone once called it. I’m not Mother Theresa or Eleanor Rosevelt or Bill and Milinda Gates. I’m not rich or famous, but all I can do is what one can do, and EACH ONE, added to the other “ones,” can make a world better.

     I’m (finally!) trying to learn to set REASONABLE goals of accomplishing things—looking at what is do-able with the resources I have rather than just looking at a huge problem (like global warming) and realizing that I can “fix it” all by myself and feeling like even trying is futile—so I try to just do what I can do and accept that I can’t “fix the world.” LOL

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 6 September 2009 @ 6:22pm

140. MariaLisa says:

     I have a question to everyone.

     My sociopathic ex used pity play on me to get me, in a subtle way, it seems blatant to me now, it wasnt at the time.
     One of the things that made me rationalize or excuse a lot of his faults was that he told me was was abused when he was a child. He said his father was a drunk and beat him on a regular basis. However he had a lot of sisters who never got beaten and even stood up for their parents against my sweet little sociopath ( yeah the whole world was against him…SIGH).
     Also in the beginning he sort of hinted that he was sexually abused but then later when I brought it up said that could have happened but it never did.

     My question is: how many times do they use abuse in their youth as an excuse, WHEN IT MAY NOT EVEN HAVE HAPPENED, or they were so sociopathic as a child they were so hard to deal with for their parents.

     As a sidenote: because I wanted to understand and know about his background so dearly, I actually tried to contact his sisters and told them a bit about what I went through…they never replied…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 5:55am

141. skylar says:

     MariaLisa,
     It’s very likely a sick family. They often come in bundles of N and N-supply, like my family.
     Usually one or both parents can be Ns but sometimes the N influence is external such as a teacher or priest or extended family.

     The other possibility is that they were actually spoiled as children. The parents may have treated him as their “golden child”. This fosters a pathological sense of entitlement so that no matter how much you give him, he needs more and he feels injured if he didn’t get more. N-parents will pick one child to treat extra special in order to set up a sibling rivalry for their parental love and attention.

     I think that the N-parenting method is passed down to the offspring.
     My parents chose the Nbaby sister to be the golden child. I didn’t have children, but instead have 5 cats. I tend to pick one to treat as extra special. Just like my parents did. It’s like child abuse, it goes down through the generations.
     Really, I can’t help it how I feel about my special cat, but I can tell it is my mother’s behavior coming out in me – its THAT obvious. My other cats don’t mind though, they love him too because he is so gentle and respectful to them even though he is twice their size. Plus cats are all narcissists any way so it can’t actually make them any worse right? Except for my special cat, he’s not a narcissist, just a predator. LOL.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 6:44am

142. MariaLisa says:

     hi skylar

     thank for your response.
     mine was not a narcisisst but a huge sociopath. i dont think he was treated as the golden child…i just really would love to know what the truth was. he was probably a rotten child and therefore got trear
     ted as such and then ofocurse felt it was unjustified and therefore feels the whole world should compensate for it. lord knows, theyre so nuts. but it does fascinate me that if he was always this rotten why his sisters would never respond. they couldve just said: yeah we know, we cant deal with this anymore. or something!? right? i think i would have reached out to someone…
     my ex loved cats btw. like i said before, theyre were his toys, nothing else. but he stopped at every cat he saw…
     poor other cats of you! go hug all of them!! LOL.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 6:49am

143. skylar says:

     Sociopaths ARE narcissists, just in the extreme side of the spectrum. I chose the N word because the connotations of envy, shame and entitlement go with it. The S word has serial killer connotations.
     But anyway, my P was given special toys but he hates his mother anyway. I know that by age 12 he was already a con man because he used the pity ploy to escape from juvenile detention with his guitar. He left home for several years after that.
     He was a middle child of 6 boys. His father was an absent womanizer and his mother has low standards of decent conduct. She doesn’t admit to anything bad, but I wasn’t there so who knows. She says she loved them all and treated them fairly. But none of them lead exemplary lives, except maybe the eldest. They are all racist hillbillies as far as I can tell.
     I’d love to know more about my P and maybe it will oneday be revealed but I think that you should do your interviews in person because P’s run in families and if you don’t see their faces and also cross-check stories, you are bound to run into lies and deception.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 7:20am

144. kim frederick says:

     Good Morning everybody. Hi Skylar. In one of your blogs you mentioned something about Seattle, and you’ve said you lived on an island for eighteen years. I’m from Washington state, Bremerton, to be exact, though I haven’t lived there for twenty-five years. I was just curious what island it was. Bainbridge? Vashion? Whidby? I live in Florida and really miss the Pacific Northwest sometimes.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 8:03am

145. MariaLisa says:

     skylar

     racist hillbilly: yep that was him. my ex. he covered it at first but it was fully layed out at the end. he lives in Cali now ( where we were) but originally he was from a redneck state as he himself is ridiculously proud of. He loves being a racist, unless that person of colour has something he needs. He told me black people instantly make him gag. I thought he must have some trauma from back in his youth, however now I still cant imagine it. HE is sick. And he hides it VERY well. Lots of people admire him ( or walk on eggshells, hard to tell).

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 9:53am

146. witsend says:

     MariaLisa,
     This really is the million dollar question… What causes people to be this way? I think it is within us (the human condition) to want to understand….To be able to give “reason” to behavior that is so UNREASONABLE.
     Nurture-Nature, this has been discussed here many times before. Many studies have been done and even the experts can disagree on this one.

     Personally I believe that there are TWO reasons that the experts DO disagree. First reason is pretty simple. Most of the “experts” are looking at this from a scientific perspective and they have not LIVED with this disorder. They just “study” it. AND as anyone here knows that living with this kind of person gives a total different perspective at how unbelievable and complex this condition can really be.

     And the second reason that they disagree I belive is pretty simple as well. I think it can be EITHER or BOTH. Nurture, nature, or a combanation of the two. I don’t think it can be rock solidly defined. Just as there is a huge spectum of the disorder itself. Very possibly it isn’t like other disorders that have been studied.
     Autism, Mentally challenged, AdHD, alcoholism and so many more…..Alot wasn’t known about these things….Until more recently.

     If you ask a S/P naturally they are going to lie and put blame somewhere (besides themselves)…..Isn’t that what they do?
     Isn’t that what convicts in prison do as well? (aren’t prisons full of “innocent” people, NOT!)

     So studies of their background & childhood would have to include other family members as well. And each member of the family would have their own “recollection” of how things were and they might differ alot by each individuals personal perspective. As siblings usually have different “roles” in the family.

     Personally I don’t believe there is ONE concrete answer to this question.

     The only study I think that would give more answers to this is to actually do ALOT of ONGOING research on the brain with children at high risk when they are young and give them brain scans from a young age on into puberty, then into adulthood. See how the brain matures and developes that would be “different” than the average child.

     And I am sure someone would come back with debate why that couldn’t or shouldn’t be done……But I think it would answer some scientific questions.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 10:04am

147. MariaLisa says:

     hi witsend

     thank you for that. well i know wwe havent come that far woth the research, but i would like to know what the percentage is of sociopaths that were severly abused. so say everybody on this site/blog their sociopathic ex had been abused, that must say something. However, its the best excuse they can use too. certainly when their partner has not been abused. mine would always tell me not to have an opinion about things like his former alcoholism, cause i wasnt an alcoholic. so bullshit. like he cant tell me anythign cause he is not a woman. i mean you talk about things, you share, you help eachother, you dont just act like alcoholism is something you got that requires special treatment for the rest of your life.
     Im drifting of. What I found interesting in the books Ive read now is the physical findings. My ex had really bad blood circulation and his father died at 48 from a hard attack ( his father the one that was an alcoholic aswell and beat him every day so he said). Now arent that some of the physical signs? he truly is the entire ‘ package’.

     (For some weird intuitive reason I just dont think he was beaten in the way he says. I think he got some beating cause of his outrageous behavior, but I think he is so full of shit he just makes it seems like he has been through more than he has ( or didnt deserve) cause I see that is a pattern in him.)

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 11:35am

148. OxDrover says:

     Dear Wits,

     There have been studies done on what you suggested. Unfortunately there is not a concerete difference that can be detected (as far as I know) that a “scan” can pick up–Dr. Leedom may shed some more light on this…

     The best one done that I know of is the “identical twins, raised apart) which has 100% of the same genetics in each of the two people, who are raised in different environments with different adoptive parents, and guess what? I think it is 80% of the time if one child is a P so is the other, so right there puts a HIGH GENETIC component to the disorder. Of course, not EVERY twin of a P comes out a P, but it also makes me wonder if those “non-P” twins don’t ALSO have a “High” rate of P-traits. Maybe nto the full blown Psychopathic score, but at least HIGHER on the score.

     I do believe that they (Ps) have choices. But there is a GROWING body of EVIDENCe that children whose parents were Ps, even if that child is riased in a loving home (usually adoptive) have a much higher incidence of psychopathic traits and behaviors and personality disorders (BY FAR) over “normal” children whose parents are NOT psychopathic.

     It was (for a while) assumed by medical people and psychologists that childrenw ere blank slates on which environment wrote and parents were “blamed” for all kinds of things that we NOW know are almost 100% heritable and genetic.

     I saw a show last night on television about a young man who was in Jullilard’s school of music, from a “good” black family, but who developed Schizophrenia when he was early college age. A book and a movie have been made a bout this man’s life on the street as a homeless man and musician and his unusual friendship with a journalist who befriended him. the years long friendship between them has been in the words of his mentor “the best friendship I’ve ever had” yet this man is still gravely mentally ill, refuses medications and is homeless because of his illness. His sister was interviewed and told about his early life before his genetic potential for mental illness was expressed in his paranoia, distorted thinking and so on. He was however, left with his love for and ability to play music in such a fashion that one can only wonder what would have been his life if he had not had this terrible genetic “defect” that stole his reason and thinking.

     I look at my own P-son who is also very very gifted intellectually and talented and I wonder what he could have been if his mind and heart had not been stolen by the genetics he received. While a psychopath has more of a CHOICE, I think, because they DO know right from wrong, where a person with other mental illnesses that distort REALITY and in which they may see and hear things that are NOT REAL, have less independent choices, I think, about their behavior.

     None the less, mentally ill people who are not in touch with reality CAN BE DANGEROUS to others as well as to themselves. The law (in theory at least) does not hold these people accountable for their behavior, such as murder which is deemed “not guilty by reason of mental defect.” It does not mean they didn’t do it, but that they were not aware wht they were doing was necessarily wrong.

     Plus, a person can have psychopathy AND mental diseases as well.

     The psychopath, however, does KNOW right from wrong, at least legally, but they don’t care if what they are doing is wrong. The law holds them accountable for their bad deeds.

     Many people, even WITH consciences, have such “different” views of what is right or wrong (like some people from other cultures, though living in this culture and society still believe it is GOOD to “circumcise” female children.) Our society disagrees and criminalizes this as “child abuse” so some people come up against the LAW when their conscience is “clear” because they BELIEVE waht they are doing is right.

     I believe the people responsible for 9/11 thoguht what they were doing was “right”—that doesn’t make it “right” in our eyes though. That doesn’t mean some of the people responsible might not have been psychopaths, but I am speaking of the ones who drove the planes into the twin towers.

     When we “catagorize” people though by the actions of a few, stereotypes are born. Someone (can’t remember who) called their X-P a “racist red-neck” which is a STEREOTYPE. Well, I am a RED NECK and not ashamed of it at all, but I am NOT a racist. Not ALL rednecks are racist. Not all racists are rednecks.

     In general a “red neck” or a “hill billy” is a stereo ltype for people with little smarts and/or education who are prejudiced against others—and that DOES describe SOME red necks or hill billies, but it doesn’t describe us all by any stretch of the imagination any more than the N-word describes all people who are black. Not all Jewish people are tightwads, or all Italians mafiaoso, or all Islamic people terrorists.

     There are good people and bad people (psychopaths) in every group of people in the world. there are even some cultures that we might consider psychopathic by OUR standards, because they have different definiitions of “right” and “wrong.”

     The thing about a psychopath though, is that no matter what their beliefs about right or wrong, they will DO AS THEY PLEASE to violate the rights of others, and in many cases, actually ENJOY doing so.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 12:06pm

149. BloggerT7165 says:

     Oxdrover,

     You are correct about the scans. Also more and more evidence is piling up that the whole nature vs nurture thing is in reality nature and nurture (genetics and environmental influences) influencing one another.

     As an aside about the redneck – sad how that went from being a term that people were proud to be called to what it has become now – http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/19831

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 12:26pm

150. skylar says:

     Kim, I live in seattle but was living on camano island.
     The pacific northwest is particularly beautiful BUT as you probably know, a disproportionate number of serial killers originate here. Nobody knows why. Also, multiple sclerosis is disproporionately high here. could there be a connection?
     Do serial killers cause MS? LOL.

     I just finished reading the short version of “Violence and the Sacred” online, I’ll have to get it at the university library if I want to finish it.

     My understanding of why I was chosen as P supply is getting better. It’s true that he was looking for someone good to sacrifice – someone must pay the blood price for his percieved injuries. And the sacrifice was in place of his mother, whom he was not at liberty to hurt, but who he percieves caused his hatred for all women.

     The idea that a good person needs a “vaccine” of evil in order to be protected from evil seems to be a central theme. This “vaccine” would be in the form of a sacrifice or a violence that a good person needs to commit. So what do I sacrifice or what/who do I commit violence on? My own lower nature, I guess. I have to kill my innocence. But I didn’t do that so I guess it was done for me. Every once in a while, I have to check it to make sure it’s really dead. Like getting a booster shot.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 12:38pm

151. skylar says:

     Hey guys, I didn’t say redneck, I said hillbillies.
     Also, I didn’t say being a hillbilly was bad, only that being a racist hillbilly doesn’t seem to be an exemplary way of life to me. Please re-read my post above, you will see.

     I think that perhaps the word hillbilly is a trigger for some people and they automatically interchange it with the word redneck. Not the same at all. Rednecks are all men, hillbillies can be women – simple folk who live in the country.

     My own xP is a chameleon. He was born a hillbilly but he became, a street kid in the city at age 12, surviving by playing guitar in the bars with his band and by conning people. For a time he lived in the mountains and clubbed spawning salmon in the streams so that he could eat.

     His family is mostly farmers and welders and road workers. Only one graduated high school AFAIK. They all use derogatory terms for people of any color, blacks, browns, native americans, muslims whatever. So does he. But he is not a hillbilly, he is anything that it suits him to be at the moment. In fact, I believe he hates hillbillies too because he speaks of them in deragatory terms as well.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 12:53pm

152. MariaLisa says:

     oxy

     i think sociopaths do things OFF in every type of society. they dont fit into ANY system in their heads, they only adjust or fake adjustment to the point it benefits them. Right?

     I responded to someone who used the term racist redneck. Ofcourse its a stereotype. It just happened to fit him 100%. I have met the most amazingly wonderful social and welcoming people from those states. HE is just so augh!!! so bad. He always boasts about how he loved shooting things when he was young there, that those states are’ lawless’, those are his words. Im from Europe I have never seen a gun in my entire life. Anywho he loved watching dumb people harm themselves. So weird that never dawned on me before, he LOOKED SO harmless, but when you think of it its quite weird to like rednecks cause theyre so lawless and dumb ( in his mind) right. He felt he was ofcourse smarter than anyone else. He called himself a redneck, but a genius one. Literally…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:02pm

153. OxDrover says:

     Dear Blogger,

     Diabetes Type II (a part of what is now called “metabolilc syndrome”) is the same way—nature (genetics) + environment= metabolic syndrome which, untreated, causes premature death.

     Just as training (environment) and/or abuse can change the “temperment” of a dog to some extent, or a cat, or anything else living with a reasonable brain, I think it takes BOTH to mold us (humans) into the forms we take both physically and emotionally/mentally.

     Inseresteringly, I read a study done many years ago when iwas in school, that starving a baby before it is born will produce a mentally retarded child. If a female, however, is starved before birth, her offspring will also be retarded for 3 generations, even if she was given adequate nutrition after birth and her babies were also given adequate nutrition.

     The male child who was retarded because of lack of nutrition, however, if he is mated with a normal individual will produce normal offspring.

     The huge numbers ofg people in the world who do not have adequate prenatal nutrition—and sometimes even in this country due to the eating habits and preferences of the teenaged mothers, themselves little more than children in many cases—I think are problematic for society as a whole.

     Sometimes intelligence can overcome psychopathic traits or mental illness enough that the person does not become a violent member of society, but can be “socialized”—they may still be a psychopath or have a mental illness, but combined with the lack of intelligence due to prenatal starvation, low or no education, poverty, etc. their “problems” become worse and their behavior more of a blot on society as a whole.

     Intelligence, even superior intelligence, such as my son has, doesn’t mean that the psychopath will “overcome” their traits or disorders or even not become violently criminal. I do believe however, that the more intelligent (generally) a psychopath is, and the more educated, the less likely they are to be “robbing liquor” stores or to live a parasitic lifestyle.

     While I know quite a few people I consider psychopaths who are well educated, bright and function in society in a way that their careers as physicians, lawyers, and even educators, does some good for society and keeps them out of the prison system (for the most part) the people I know who I think are psychopaths who are not so bright, not educated well, have few if any job skills, etc. are much more apt to behave in ways that land them in prison that the brighter psychopaths.

     For a long time, it seems to me, our society seemed to believe that poverty (alone) caused domestic violence, low motivation, discrimination, etc. but it seems to me that domestic violence, lack of motivation, psychopathy, and so on create the poverty which is then blamed for those people behaving in violent and anti-social ways.

     As more and more children who are adopted are coming from psychopathic mothers and fathers (most other unwed parents keeping their children) and those children from such back grounds are showing up with a MUCH HIGHER than average rate of “conduct disorder” and eventually psychopathic and criminal behavior, I think the tide of “common sense” is turning somewhat to see that there are some genetic components to the problems that cause anti-social behavior, which behavior, in turn, causes poverty, low intellect and lack of desire for education.

     The old phrase “poor white trash” is another stereotypical phrase to describe what is now called “red neck” by many. However, they are not trash because they are poor, but poor because they are “trash.” In my community there were and are many poor people, people without even the ability to read or write enough to sign their name, but these people are NOT trash, not considered trash by the community, but respected for their moral compasses and for their work eithic. There are others here who have quite a bit of money but ARE “trash” because of their behavior, lack of moral compasses, and “trashy” behavior. With the influx of the natural gas drillilng in this area, it is also quite funny at times to see what the “poor white trash” do when they become RICH white trash! LOL

     It is also interesting to note the different behavior when the poor people who have little education but good moral compasses do when they start getting significant royalties for the gas under their land. The biggest difference in those good people’s lives in having money and not having money is the different amounts they give to the church, and maybe they buy a new truck, but they don’t start walking around the community with their noses in the air and “bling” on their necks. LOL

     “

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:03pm

154. MariaLisa says:

     whats the difference between a redneck or a hillbilly ( he used those two interchangeably btw)?

     skylar our ex could very well be the same…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:04pm

155. OxDrover says:

     Dear MariaLisa,

     Psychopaths usually find some group to “look down on” whether it is “dumb” whites/blacks/browns.

     I was raised where hunting was common, and had been forever. I was raised around guns that were TOOLs not just weapons. Your psychopath’s admiration for people who kill and hurt things just for the fun of it or are “lawless” shows that he feels that those things ar e”fun”—it isn’t quite as “lawless” as he might think “out west.” Or as he might wish!

     Yes, there are people who use a gun to hurt others, or to rob or kill, but there are people who use poison, knives, or stones to hurt others as well. A gun itself is not a bad thing, it is th eperson holding it that decides whether it is used to hurt for fun, or to secure meat, or to kill or injure, or to protect yourself. Just as a pencil is not responsible for the words it writes, neither is the gun responsible for how it is used or misused.

     I did not take offense at your term “racist redneck” because I know that term is often used both here and over seas. Psychopaths are the worst racists because they have to find some group that they can belittle to make themselves seem superior. (((hugs))))

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:09pm

156. skylar says:

     Maria Lisa
     redneck is a guy with a rifle and a truck that likes to shoot things, animate or inanimate and thinks his own opinion is all that matters. He is ignorant no matter how much education or money he has. His problem is hidden low self-esteem.
     I think the rifle and truck are necessary to be called a redneck because no redneck could possibly continue to live if he didn’t have both.

     hillbilly is someone who lives in the country and likes simple thiings. You can choose to live life as a hillbilly. A hillbilly is not pretentious. Hillbillies don’t care about other people’s “high falutin’ ways” (did I spell “falutin” correctly?)

     The man you described sounds like a P, more than a redneck.

     I hope I didn’t offend any truck drivers/gun owners, I own a truck too. LOL. But I think y’all know what I mean.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:18pm

157. MariaLisa says:

     Thanks Oxy and I totally agree with you. My ex was just such an indescribable loser. Wat can I say.

     Skylar

     “I think the rifle and truck are necessary to be called a redneck because no redneck could possibly continue to live if he didn’t have both.”

     OMG how that sentence made me burst out laughing!! you have a fine sense of humor. Its quite dry (is that how you call it in American aswell?)

     I could actually say some funny things here but Im afraid if anyone who knows him ever comes on here it would just be TOO easy to tell Im talking about him ( I think its already to easy).

     Anywho what I wanted to say is I would highly respect people who like the simple things in life, anywhere on this planet. And working in an agricultural business is highly respectful in my opinion aswell. Nature and the countryside are so amazing, so sad some lunatics out there make it unsafe.

     I have one question just for general knowledge. Georgia is a redneck state (or southern state), but what about texas or say west virginia. I mean texas is southern and cowboyish ofcourse yet not poor at all. West Virginia is poor yet not southern…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:29pm

158. Easy says:

     We all know or some of us do how un reliable are the folks who want to diagnose folks are before we pass judgement on a fellow human being remember that we all are guilty of the same behaviors, it is just a mater of extanint and how we choose to view the world!

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....annel_page

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 1:39pm

159. OxDrover says:

     Skylar,

     LOL–I beg your pardon, while there are some who define “red neck” and “hill billy” as two different things, as you do, I am proud to be a red neck, I own 4 trucks and a bunch of guns! I am not ignorant, though I do have an education, and I don’t kill things for fun—I do live a “simple” life, by choice, but I do have indoor plumbing, electric lights, a computer and a toothbrush! LOL

     The point is, though, that like Easy says, we all have our prejudices and we DO “profile” people by many things, age, race, sex, dress, cleanliness, speech patterns, and location.

     I doubt if there are any of us who walkign along at midnight in a “down town” neighborhood in any large city would not profile a group of young black men dressed in bandanas with their pants hanging nearly to their knees who were following us chanting rap music as “dangerous” even though these young men might have been to a play rehearsal.

     Profiling predators, or sizing up someone as ‘dangerous or not dangerous” is how humans have survived for eons! It is a natural instinct, I think.

     People from different “tribes” dressed differently, cut their hair differently, had different facial features and different skin colors and I think we are programmed to be suspicious of anyone who is “different” than we are in any manner of dress, facilal features, skin color, language etc. Noting these differences and having an “us” (our tribe) vs. “them” (anyone else) mentality was what kept people safer than if they had opened up too quickly to strangers whose intentions they did not know.

     While in order for a group to live together fairly peacefully, there had to be rules within the tribe that were enforced of how to treat others. However, people who were not “our tribe” that we did not know, were not treated the same as “us” (our tribe) so it made it “okay” to steal from them, kill them and take their food/land etc. because “all of ‘them”" were “not as good as us” maybe we even thought them not human so it was OK to treat them like animals.

     This catagorizing of all people with X characteristic as bad made it easier than having to make a decision about a single person, we could just “lump” them with the other people who had x characteristic and we “knew” that they were all bad, so therefore we didn’t have to make a decision (therefore we didn’t have anxiety about making a wrong decision) but could just lump “them all together.”

     Part of our problem I think today with US (those that have been victimized by psychopaths) is that we have gotten TOO far away from “catagorizing” people, TOO open hearted, too non-discriminatory….we many times no longer look at a person’s outward appearance and draw any conclusions from it. No job? Well, he is black so he can’t get one, it’s not his fault. No car, no home? Well, his parents were abusive of him., it’s not his fault. Gets mad and hurts people, well, that;’s not his fault either, because it is what he learned at home. Does drugs and lies? Well, that’s not his fault either, it is society’s fault, it is our culture.

     But instead of profiling GROUPS, we need to PROFILE INDIVIDUAL BEHAVIOR, and hold people accountable for their actions.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 2:46pm

160. skylar says:

     well, Oxy, if you insist…!
     that was just my definition of RN vs. Hillbilly, obviously there isn’t just one. To me a RN is a man not a woman because there has to be lots of testosterone involved. I would categorize you as a Country Gal, if I may be permitted.
     Not being a RN or Hillbilly (by my own definition) I have to have my own way of analyzing, categorizing, verbalizing what I mean.
     You are exactly right about passing judgement – I don’t do that enough.
     Everyone on LF might think that I’m doing just that when I categorize people, but really I’m just describing. The fact is I’m WAY TOO accepting of everyone and everyone’s behavior even the bad stuff.
     When my xp’s REDNECK brother came up and made non-stop racist comments, I never said a word. I just thought, “well, he doesn’t mean it in a bad way. I also categorize people but still respect everyone and therefore, I’m sure he does too. I’m sure he is a nice person. Look how nice his wife and kids are…etc…” Those were my thoughts.

     Perhaps its because I find every type of person interesting and amusing. I WAS the glue in my N family, I get along with everyone. Never criticizing always accepting. If you’ve read my posts, you know I just make excuses for everyone’s bad behavior. They don’t even need to make their own for me. LOL.

     So anyway, we need to put people in groups so that we can think about them, describe them, but we all belong to more than just one group. Like you said, the only group you don’t want to belong to is the P group! And we all know that P’s are only good for one thing:
     AS AN EXAMPLE OF HOW NOT TO BE.
     

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 3:02pm

161. MariaLisa says:

     Skylar (and Oxy)

     Thats exactly how I felt too. His comments were so out there I didnt even feel like adressing em. that would insult my intellect is what i thought.

     No redneck would survive in europe: the cars are too tiny here and too many vegetarians, plus no guns, and no tobacho chewing ( or am I watching too many movies!!!) WHAHAH im only joking ofcourse.
     i love people in general, all kinds of people, and like you Skylar I enjoy describing people and hear what other people have to say too. no one here is downright racist, un-nuanced or anything like my ex was. i couldnt understand it then, I do now. When you categorically trash entire races or nations you just dont have a loving spirit OR humor. And it is not to be taken lightly. Its says something about that persons character. Unfortunately.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 3:18pm

162. hummingbird06 says:

     What’s the difference between a Redneck and a Psychopath?

     A Redneck has a rifle and a truck and he’s proud of it…

     A Psychopath steals a rifle from a truck and he’s proud of it…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 4:58pm

163. MariaLisa says:

     what? that was never the question…

     we were comparing the term hillbilly to redneck.

     sociopathy is a disorder…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 7:18pm

164. witsend says:

     Hope everyone here in the states had a nice holiday weekend. I actually had some plans for today!

     Some of my friends came from Chicago for a visit and my friends and I went to my oldest sons house for the day and he lives in a quaint small town right on the lake. The weather was perfect today so we had a very nice visit. And a nice relaxing day.

     Tomorrow is the first day of school…..And my gut is already tied in knots as school brings on ALOT of stress at our house. Last year school was an absolute nightmare….And I am hoping for the best but also preparing for the worst.

     I am considering contacting the truant officer ahead of time, to find out what the laws are about school BEFORE the problem arises!

     My son has befriended over the summer a few girls that are older than him (18 years old) and graduated from high school last year. They are taking a few collage classes this year at local community collage and that means that my son will have friends that are not IN school at the “set time” of his normal high school friends. He has never had friends in his circle before that weren’t in school during the same hours he was….So I am anticipating this as a problem from what I have seen this past summer.

     As unpredictable as my son can be at times I am getting better at occasionally being able to see the next thing that will occur without being blindsided all the time…..

     I am not sure of this is a good thing or a bad thing but at least I find sometimes I am better prepared to deal with “whatever” it when I have to.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 7:21pm

165. hummingbird06 says:

     Marialisa, It was a joke…ya know…like what’s the difference between…blah blah blah….I guess my lame attempt at being funny

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 7:50pm

166. skylar says:

     hummingbird,
     LOL! that was a good joke, I liked it.

     MariaLisa,
     there is no way that you didn’t get that…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 8:05pm

167. MariaLisa says:

     Dear evevrybody, its almost morning here, Ive been laying awake all night long. Sometimes crying, sometimes staring into blankness. Im appalled with the superficiality of the world. Its my ex’ influence ofcourse. I cannot come to terms with the fact that someone who has been so profound in describing his morals, in making me feel such a strong soul connections, to have proven himself to be such a phony and liar. It has shattered my belief in the world. Ofcourse. And ofcourse these are exactly the times you need to hold your faith tight ( Im not specifically meaning a God here, but anyone’s personal belief system), but Im struggling with it like never before. Especially just the topic of love. Looking at myself from a distance I feel like this girl needs to quit being so serious ( I didnt even get the joke above anymore, and I used to be a hoot) and have some fun like every girl my age. I feel like there is something so in my way. And it confuses me cause my therapist thinks that after a few months I should just move on. And my sociopathic ex, whom Ive befriended with, also. And she’s been through somewhat similar experiences. So it makes me feel like there is something wrong with me. BUt on the other hand I feel like I shouldnt be apologizing for being sensitive enough to care and to be shaken beyond belief about the betrayal on so many levels Ive been put through ( I stepped out the moment I found out the sickness). The trigger for all these raw emotions is my ex ex, she told me tonight she had a fling with someone who is married and who has 2 small children, one is a newborn. She hardly dared to tell me cause of all we had been through. I therefore was ofcourse zero judgemental, although I urged her to look at this realistically and think of keeping her sense of self worth. She thinks he might be unhappy in his marriage and might divorce. I know I know, I ofcourse think the same: thats utterly irrational and gives men like that a playing field I dread them have. My problem is also tht this man is highly respected in his community. It just gives such a blow each time to my sense of trust for people. Am I the only one that believes in making something special and dedicate oneself truly? I know this is a fast world, but how can all these people sleep at night and have fun and me IM lying here, uncapable of anything at this point. I sound pathetic but its how I feel right now. Im usually pretty tough, but the world seems to be the most superficial place right now and in order to live in it I feel I should give up everything I believe in and held so high until my sociopathic ex just took my belief system, became it and then raped it.

     I would be so immensely grateful if someone could shed a light on this. Thank you sooo much. Hugs…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 10:24pm

168. hummingbird06 says:

     MariaLisa,

     My dear sweet marialisa…You will notice how often I joke and haha, but it is to push aside the tears that I feel, like you, constantly, on the verge of shedding. Yes these S/P’s have taken something from us… an innocence…a trust…a belief in the general goodness of mankind. I am a woman of the Christian faith, and I will admit that, yes, even my faith has been shaken…not just by him ,but by the evil I seem to notice more and more around me like Oxy compared to the “poodles”.

     I find myself sitting in church looking at a woman whose husband is no longer by her side, but instead living with his lover…the woman he left her and his family for….or the heartbroken parents who try to hold their heads up high without their son who was just arrested for possessing child pornography. I can’t help but look around and wonder…who else? who else in these pews is fooling everyone but God?

     Part of my belief system tells me that it is no surprise we are in “end times” relatively speaking…and that Satan is working overtime…I guess what I previously thought to be those fulfilling biblical prophecy are actually psychopaths. Ironically, the Bible itself practically CONTAINS the S/P checklist and warns us to stay away from them!

     I am trying to hang on to some basic beliefs here…that God KNOWS what he’s doing! …not only with me…but with his world…And, that GOD will judge accordingly…as much as I would like to run over my XP with my car or poke his eyes out with forks, I wouldn’t because I have a CONSCIENCE for one, and because I know that he will get what he deserves from God Himself. And, that GOODNESS will prevail in the end…it may seem like darkness is at every turn, but Evil is no match for God, Satan is no match for God.

     I believe prayer is the greatest and most powerful weapon we have…it is our email to Heaven…our Godmail…it may not be answered the way we want, or when we want, but it will be answered in the best possible way. God will break our legs if that’s what it takes to get us on our knees…sometimes he allows things in our lives simply to bring us TO Him…to depend on Him.

     We have all been hurt, devastated, and changed forever by the evil ones that brought us to LF…but we WILL learn from it…be better for it…and move on with our lives with faith that in the end Goodness always wins

     I hope this helps encourage you….XXOO

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 11:26pm

169. MariaLisa says:

     Warm embrace to you Hummingbird…
     XOXOXO

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 11:32pm

170. skylar says:

     Hi MariaLisa,
     I don’t sleep either. had the wierdest, most colorful dreams, shoulda written them down. Sorry you feel so bad, I know exactly what you mean.

     I think what saves me is curiosity.
     I remember one time, having a fight with the P, crying, sobbing, devastated over something. He just sat there cold as ice. I felt like I’d rather be dead at that moment, and I realized that I had only felt that way in his presence. Nobody and nothing, no other event or person had ever made me feel that way.
     Then, in the middle of my devastated emotions, I thought: “interesting. how interesting. he is the source of my pain. a pain like I’ve never known from any other source. How interesting. How does he do it?” Momentarily my focus moved away from my pain to curiosity about my pain. This actually reduced my pain to relatively low levels and kept it there.

     So I told him, “you are the only person or thing that has ever made me wish I wasn’t alive, didn’t exist!” I expected some kind of compassion. NOTHING.
     Then I told him, “YOU caused your ex-gf to kill herself, YOU were the reason she committed suicide. I know that now. It is what you did and you’re doing it to me.”

     He blew up. He raged. He said, “How dare you? How dare you speak of my good friend who died? You apologize to me right now. You will apologize to me, blah blah blah… ”
     Raged for so long that I eventually apologized to shut him up. I think that was the day I really stopped loving him even as a friend.
     So since I found out about the Ps, thanks to Divine intervention, my curiosity has been peeked even more. Yes, I’m still devastated, but I’m also extremely intrigued.

     When I’m thinking about how interesting this personality disorder is and how it sheds light on so many other aspects of our world, I don’t feel as much pain. I’m grateful that now I see an additional dimension to the events around me. Things aren’t so confusing anymore. Only my emotions are. But hopefully, I’ll get some information that will shed light on that too. Ironically, all the info I’ve read on narcissism, makes me understand my P and his motivations but it doesn’t shed any light on how I feel or what to do about it.

     I guess that’s the difference between the cookie-cutter personality of the narissist and the more complex personality of a fully formed human being, it’s harder to understand the fully formed human.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 September 2009 @ 11:40pm

171. skylar says:

     MariaLisa,
     I also second everything Hummingbird said.
     Also, you might pray to Saint Michael the Archangel. He has provided me with protection since day 1, but also inspiration. The prayers to Saint Michael reveal how to fight evil, since it is Saint Michael that banished Lucifer from heaven. The prayers are amazing even if you aren’t Catholic, (I’m not sure which religions think it’s ok to pray to the angels and saints for intercession – I think some don’t.)
     The prayers describe the traits of St. Michael. It’s amazing, you might imagine him as superman defeating the devil, but it is Saint Michael as BORING CLARK KENT, that defeated the devil because he is HUMBLE AND OBEDIENT TO GOD. Remember Clark Kent was not prideful, he was meek. Also, the litany of humility is powerful against evil because evil is narcissism, which preys on your ego and pride.

     http://www.2heartsnetwork.org/Michael.htm
     http://www.rc.net/wcc/humility.htm

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 September 2009 @ 12:00am

172. MariaLisa says:

     Aw Skylar thank you. So sweet. It really helps to be in contact with other caring individuals like on here. I try to surround myself with caring people as much as possible. I must be honest and say I am not religious in the strict sense. So praying to an angel is just to foreign for me ( although I did check out the sites you gave and I was inspired), I feel like I am a spiritual being and until I met my sociopath I honestly felt all men were essentially good, just cluttered along the way so to speak. Meaning this new found evil truly shook my entire worldview. I just fnisihed the sociopath next door and I like how the writer focusses certainly at the end on the good messages, like the fact that soulful people are a ridiculous large majority and such and how good always wins from the bad. I am however afraid of where this world is going to Materialism ( I think capitalism, meaning healthy growth is good), but materialism is not and also the fact life has gotten so fast so advanced that people lose touch with themselves to the point that they dont even know they hurt themselves and eachother is tough. People talk about things that they dont put into practise anymore. Life sometimes seems too superficial and demanding to do so for a lot of people. I love how I can come here and ask for help Its something I seem uncapable of doing outside of this venue. I tend to try to lift others up and be strong. Which is great but sometimes lonely. Im sure a lot of you know cause it may have been the very characteristic that drew the sociopath to us. Its hard and Im truly struggling in this crazy tough little world. People point to the fact of the ‘ unbearable lightness of being’, I think that WOULD truly be unbearable. Which is why I dont want lightness but meaning. but how not to lose your reason, your fun and zest for life while reaching for it…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 September 2009 @ 5:42am

173. sstiles54 says:

     Slylar,
     Thank you for the inspirational sites. It’s weird that several of us have not been able to sleep, & have been having disturbing dreams. I struggle with being able to do anything good for myself. As dear Oxy would put it, I think I had an aha moment this past weekend. I had a lot of time on my hands, & therefore, a lot of time to think this weekend. I have spent my entire life trying to keep the peace, please others, do for others, so much so, that I have no self esteem left. And I really don’t know how to get it back. My kids are all grown now, & it’s just me & my dog. I feel so not needed anymore. So alone. I go to work & come home. Go to church. That’s it. My Bible study group is stating tomorrow, maybe that will help. I am just very down. If I died tomorrow, who would care? I always wanted to feel that I have done something worthwhile in my life, left the world a better place somehow. I look back, & all I see is a string of bad choices I made, which not only destroyed me, but hurt my children.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 September 2009 @ 6:11am

174. MariaLisa says:

     sstiles54
     im afraid i dont know your story, or if you are still in contact with your kids. they would care if you died! plus you should care. you served other people now its time to serve yourself first and then other people. creating meaning for a lot of us women means having a connection with others. a bible group seems a wonderful place for it. have there been things youve always been interested in that you maybe could work up to start exploring now? are you in shape? can you get into shape slowly but surely and build a stronger body ( im beginning on doing that too) cause it will help making you feel more empowered and have the physical strength to mentally make yourself ready to embark on new ( even small) things….i know its hard…

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 September 2009 @ 6:39am

175. Easy says:

     Sociopathy is a behavior!

     For Insurance purposes it is a diagnoseable dissorder worth $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

     yet try to find a defininition!? or any science to verify it or prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt???

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 September 2009 @ 11:33am

176. henry says:

     sstiles54 – dont beat yourself up so – you have touched my life – i know we all have regret’s – we lived our lives’s for other’s – I am just now at age 55 learning to live for me – let go of the regret’s – look at what we have lived through and survived – please feel better about yourself tomorrow or else I will come boink you on yer head

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 12:26am

177. skylar says:

     henry, maybe you could help me.
     How can I tell if a man who acts interested in me is gay/bi or just plain not straight?
     My P had so many gay men and women as friends and I didn’t bat an eye at this very macho, redneck type guy having so many gay friends because he was a musician.
     Living in seattle, everyone has gay friends, it didn’t seem strange. Turns out he is gay, bi, straight and everything else.

     So I’ve been sort of seeing a guy who tried to kiss me 4 years ago (I pushed away – being faithful to my P – LOL.) but I’ve known him for about 15 years off and on. He has never had a girlfriend that I know of but he has many friends, guys and girls. He was a roomate for my closet/gay Ex-friend, that’s how I met him. But my Ex-friend had a high roomate turnover so that doesn’t mean much. Now I think my closet/gay Ex-Friend knew stuff about my XP and never told me. If my good buddy would jump into the P-game, who can I trust?

     How do I get gaydar?

     What should i look for?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 12:39am

178. ErinBrockovich says:

     I have had ‘processing’ dreams too the past week. Maybe because my back is out and I wake up with ever turn…..it’s like I am doing the crocodile death roll.
     As disturbing as they may seem at the time I wake up……I lay there and disect them….
     I am a scientist this way…..I disect everything.
     Lately, I have been ‘taken back’ to breaking up with the S as a teenager and how I was so desperate each and every time…..The words I want to break up only meant to me, go home and cry and destroy yourself until he calls you and takes all the bad emotions from you…..
     He was in such control……over me!
     In my dreams now, I am aware of how I respond and I correct the behaviors in my sleep.
     This is something I am worried about for my future relationships……how do you ‘break up’ in an adult amicable fashion……..(well I guess I have to ‘land’ a relationship first) HA.
     But, this is why it’s infiltrating my psychie through my dreams….to raise my awareness on this particular issue.
     Normal people, when it’s not working, communicate this and make a decision……not play games, wait for an ‘im sorry’ call etc…..
     I’ts interesting, but more interesting to me how aware I am of my dreams……
     I go through times I sleep like a baby…..then there seems to be another lesson to be learned and it comes in my sleep….
     There really is a lot of healing to be done, and I think it may take a lifetime to process.
     But, as long as we keep moving in the right direction…..it’s all good!
     XXOO

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 1:44am

179. ErinBrockovich says:

     My S was bi….I found out after the separation!
     A friend pointed me to Craigs list personal ads to see if I could find S’s ad on CL.
     I was enlightened to the CL ads men for men, etc….
     it was VERY disturbing to me how many MARRIED men were looking for a quick XXX yadayada, man/man rendevous….before the wife got home…..or on their way home from work, at a hotel, in the car etc…. etc….
     Please be discreet ads, married men a plus ads…..
     It totally freaked me out. As much as I had seen in my life and recently, THIS blew me away.
     There are TONS of them Married men looking for men…..
     NOW….I have said this 10000 times….I dont care about anyones sexual preferances…..EXCEPT….you can’t be married to me if your gay or bi! Want to occasional male sex or Not even if you want other women. I am monogomous/hetro and I expect the same from my husband/partner!
     It’s just a personal preferance I insist on!
     
     So, moving into the dating scene, on the heels of discovering just what the S was all about….I have often wondered how one goes about finding out if THIS guy is THE guy making the quick pit stop prior to coming home to me.
     Since honesty doesn’;t seem to be something alot of people are into these days…..how can I tell, how can I get it out of them before it’s ‘too late’.
     I thought I can’t just come right out and ask…..Hey Mr. New guy…..Have you ever had an encounter of any sort with a man?
     There has to be a timing issue, and the way I present it….etc….
     I thought I could say…..Oh, I love it when a man wants another man and wait for a response and pay attention to it closely…….that might get me the truth…….if that’s what he’s into….He could be thinkiing ….OH, I landed a cool chick….I can bring ‘Thomas’ along on our next date……
     Uh, NOOOOT! That’s when I can run!!!
     So I still have no clue……I guess I have to just choose and be more stringent in my red flag radar detection fine tuning of the gut,than I ever had with the ex S.
     If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck………HE WANTS DUCK!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 2:02am

180. justabouthealed says:

     ErinB—the book When YOu Love a Man who Loves Himself does a good job of comparing and contrasting a normal breakup with a break up with a narcissist, let alone a P! But a normal breakup hurts, it is a loss, but it a loss that you understand. As in, I want kids, he doesn’t. And the good times were REAL. The ending doesn’t make you realize that it was all a fraud, because it was not. A normal relationship hurts like hell for a few DAYS when you break up, maybe a week, but you realize it was really no one’s fault, neither of you did the other one dirty, it is just as time went on you stumbled on to some deal killers… NONE of them having to do with betrayal or lies or stuff like that! And in time, when you look back at the relationship you SMILE. You may even have a friendship with each other after some time has gone by. Very different than breaking up with a P.

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     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 2:36am

181. justabouthealed says:

     ErinB—Nope, questions won’t work. I think you have to do just as you said…look for those red flags!!! And watch the ACTIONS more than the words.

     A man of integrity won’t be into game playing. Look for integrity I think . And STILL watch out for red flags and RESPOND to them. That’s the part I goofed on. I saw the red flags and sort of ….ignored them!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 2:39am

182. Easy says:

     http://www.cbsnews.com/stories.....ml?tag=pop

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     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 5:31am

183. Easy says:

     Skylar

     Gaydar

     If you watch who people watch , And who they take a second look at! another clue is who they are “extra” nice to! not just polite!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 5:37am

184. skylar says:

     none of the clues above would’ve helped me on the gay issue. He hid it well. The only reason I even know any of the stuff I know is because of books I’ve read. Now I can see how his late nights out and all his young blond male friends fit in to the narcissistic desire to sleep with people who remind him of himself as a young man.

     I also remember walking by a young man who really did look alike a younger version of xP. I didn’t comment on it, but as soon as we were out of earshot, HE commented on it. I thought it strange because most people cannot see the resemblance between themselves and others. Like, I’ve been told I look like one actress or another, or like my sister or my cousins. I see very vague resemblences but wouldn’t have noticed it myself. My XP noticed it.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 8:28am

185. Easy says:

     some thing tells me that the fog is still lifting and still very much has a hold on the ground! Like early morn about 4:30am way before light!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 2:11pm

186. witsend says:

     I keep reading this article over again. It seems to me that many of us labor over the labeling of these disorders, to put more clarity on the situation we are or were involved in. In some ways it is part of the “acceptance” of what you are going through and by putting a label on the disorder, it opens avenues to find possible outlets of others to “talk” openly with whom have been through much of the same things we ourselves are experiencing. Such as here on LF.
     With all the crazymaking that goes on in relationships with these disordered individuals it DOES help to know that others have survived the same things that you yourself might be going through at any given time. And it certainly helps to have someone understand what you are going through. Because as we know, it is tough to explain the disorder to those who don’t “get it”. Or have never experienced a truly toxic individual……

     I know for me, my son is to young to be “labeled”, however the importance of knowing what is going on with him, “disorder” wise is more about…..Is there any hope for him?
     If he is BiPolar and ADHD, then it seems meds would be helpful. If he is well on his way to a full blown adult personality disorder, then from what I have learned from this site and other research, then the answer is not a good outcome.

     I can honestly say that living with him is enough to make you crazy. The Dr. Jekle, Mr Hide thing is really more than I can cope with. It is so extreame. And until the cycle repeated itself many, many, times it was what CONFUSED me more than ANYTHING. (like what the hell IS WRONG with this kid?)

     I mean it is this very “ability” that he has to act so “normal” one minute, particularly when it is in HIS BEST interest to do so (in front of certain people such as his brother) and then be so evil …..Its really kind of mind boggling.

     I just have a hard time connecting the dots. The pattern is so right-left, up-down, here-there…..So many contradictions in one personality??? Its hard for me to even believe that he is ONE IN the SAME person. And I live with him and have trouble believing it.

     I remember not so long ago when my son had “conned” his counsellor that he was doing so much better in school. When I informed this man that he was lying to him (he was doing worse) the counsellor raised his eyebrow at me….
     Like he didn’t BELIEVE me. …..Because my son was so convincing.

     When he is confronted in a lie he projects that onto the other person. That they are lying, not him.
     Living with disordered people that live in their own distorted world, does at time distort our own perceptions when we are at a low point.

     Thank goodness there is a place to share this…..

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 4:53pm

187. Easy says:

     witsend

     forgive me for not knowing the specifics!

     but I think we have gone over them before.

     Diet ! I know it sounds foolish! Music ! may sound foolish too!

     I believe his age is going to be a problem that is beyond your control!

     Boundries, If you do not have a way to set them than you need to find a legal way!

     Baker acting an individual is a 72 hour fix! there are ways , you have to just be determined to make them work for you! where there is a will there is a way!

     All my prayers!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 10:00pm

188. PInow says:

     There is one thing I cannot place with the Ps: Fear. If they have no feelings, no remorse, no consciousness, why is there fear?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 11:01pm

189. kim frederick says:

     PInow, from what I understand they don’t really feel fear, either. At least not like you and I do. That probably has somthing to do with why they don’t learn from their mistakes, and why they do what they do to begin with.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Wednesday, 9 September 2009 @ 11:11pm

190. henry says:

     they have fear – BPs NPDs are driven by a constant and deeply motivated drive to find safety in their lives by avoiding things that trigger their terrifying fears. Both narcissist and borderlines percieve a threat in the judgments of the people around them, one that is so great that it is terrifying to them

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 10 September 2009 @ 12:53am

191. Easy says:

     But their Fear is a weekness that they do not want to show or Deal with! That is why they are so roten!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Thursday, 10 September 2009 @ 5:18am

192. Outlier says:

     Is it commonplace among forum users to be labelled mentally unstable by abusers? My 2 abusers have used the mental health trap on me accusing me of having ‘antisocial personality disorder’. This was their only weapon when I called police and authorities about the neighbour’s antisocial behaviour (she harrassed my elderly parents for years, it only stopped after she got out the mental health card).

     This is how I came to know the term ‘PD’, ‘borderline’, ‘ASPD’ etc. Ironically I have to thank my abusers for sneaking in these terms. They were the catalyst for researching abuse/serial bullies etc.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 11:16am

193. OxDrover says:

     Dear Witsend,

     As I think you know, many psychopaths ARE bi-polar, and many ARE ADHD, as well. Just because you have one doesn’t mean you can’t have all 3. The Trojan Horse Psychopath had all THREE, he was Bi-polar, ADHD AND psychopathic (official diagnosis ASPD).

     He WAS treated for the bi-polar and the ADHD but it didn’t stop his PPD from being full blown! It didn’t stop him trying to kill me, having teh affair with my DIL and trying to kill my son C.

     As far as I know, my P-son has no other diagnosis for mental illness, depression, bi-polar or anything else. But he is a full blown P.

     What difference if he has 1, 2 or even 3 or 4 other diagnoses? The bottom line is the ONE that makes him dangerous to others as an abuser? Even if you medicated the others successfully (many, if not most, times they will refuse medication as they actually like the feel of the bi-polar mania) but you still would not be able to infuse a conscience or the ability to give or receive love. You would not be able to get them to focus on something besides themselves.

     At what “age” you recognize that your son has a SERIOUS unfixable problem, (a personality disorder) whether he is treated or not for the other problems that are treatable, doesn’t make a difference in the TOTAL OUTCOME.

     I realize how difficult it is to ACCEPT that someone so “young” is beyond help, beyond hope, and believe me, it took me 20+ years to realize that, but ALL the signs were there by puberty, the time the REAL “manhood” gets there, not just the artificial “age” that our society puts on “adulthood.” In most more primitive societies, adulthood went along with puberty, adult responsibilities and accountabilities came with physical maturation at whatever age it happened. Our artifical designation of “adulthood” at 18 or 21 is just that, an ARTIFICIAL designation.

     A young man here can go to war at 17 with his parents premission to join the service, but he can’t buy a beer or cigarettes legally. He can vote at 18 (it used to be 21) and youths much younger than 18 who committ heinous crimes are being tried and punished as “adults.”

     Yet, we also know that the frontal lobe of a young person’s brain doesn’t fully mature until after 21, maybe up to age 25.

     Each society uses a different criteria to determine who is responsible (legally) and held to the standards of “adult” behavior. I don’t think there is any artifical standard of age that fits every situation. I know kids who are “little kids” at age 15 and others that are ADULTS by 13. There is a huge variation in emotional and physical maturation in kids.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 11:43am

194. skylar says:

     I had a new insight:
     The institution of slavery was P-behavior sanctioned by society. I see it most clearly in the need to CONTROL others.

     In both narcissism and slavery, the need to suppress the other person’s will and deny their personhood is obvious. As we have all experienced, the only thing the P’s like better than servitude is complete submission of your soul to them.
     Slavery has existed since the earliest days of humanity and only been eradicated in most countries very recently.

     How much easier it would have been to keep living with eyes closed and allow people in the south to continue keeping slaves. After all, the slaves were not even from this country, they were not even considered real “people”, they were “others”, different from us – scapegoats. In fact, the bible was often used to justify slavery because slaves are mentioned in the bible.

     Instead of living with eyes closed, this country bravely went into a bloody civil war against the narcissistic beliefs of the slave owners. So, that gives me hope. By opening a dialog, creating analogies and exposing narcissism for what it really is – slavery – we can create public awareness and outrage.

     The sad part is that it took thousands of years for humanity to open its eyes to the evil of slavery. How long before they see that the root of slavery was narcissism? How long before they see that eradicating one manifestation of this evil did not make the evil go away? Only when we recognize this evil IN ALL OF ITS MANIFESTATIONS can we begin to put an end to it.

     No, Kim, I’m not picking on Pinky-Doodle again. I only mean to say in all of its HUMAN manifestations.
     No Oxy, I’m not calling you a P for eating steak either, we all have to eat. Just as long as we don’t eat people’s souls for lunch!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 12:20pm

195. OxDrover says:

     Skylar,

     You are right, and to take it a step further, look at WWII, where hitler “dehumanized” some segments of society (not just the Jewish people) as less than human, as vermin.

     Look at 9/11 where the terrorists dehumanized Americans because we do not share their religion, we are “evil”—we dehumanize them, and go to war with them.

     Almost ALL I think of man’s “inhumanity to man” is based on “us vs. them” thinking. The Native Americans preyed on each other, tribes went to war against each other for resources and “fun”—-it was us vs. them thinking.

     I think a certain amount of “us vs. them” thinking is almost genetic in mankind. When we humans lived in small bands it was probably necessary for survival of the band, especially when resources were very limited. It was kill or die. I think that tendency lives on in narcissisticly inclined people even today.

     The history of humanity has been written in BLOOD since we crawled out of the muck or left the garden of Eden (whatever your beliefs are) and I don’t see it changing much in the future. Some of us will see things in a more “civilized” manner but yet even we tend to “profile” others by age, race, sex, dress, etc. we “form opinions” on first meeting someone by those external things, which many times are not correct, but it is a fact that we DO this.

     Here on LF we are learning to “profile” psychopaths by how they behave in order to keep ourselves safe from their attacks. We are learning to look for the “red flags” that indicate (or might indicate) that they are dangerous people and we need to avoid them.

     Psychopaths have learned to “profile” US so that they know who it is SAFE TO ATTACK and who will ‘fall for” their abuse and who will not. Just like a school yard bully doesn’t pick on the strongest kid in the group, he picks on the weakest who is less likely to fight back.

     Good analogy with slavery.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 12:52pm

196. OxDrover says:

     ps. Keep in mind the American Civil War was NOT faught to free the slaves, but over “state’s rights” vs. the Federal Government’s powers. Lincoln “freed” the slaves well after the war started as an economic blow to the South. Many early “fathers” of our country, including Jefferson and Washington owned many slaves and saw nothing at all wrong with fighting for THEIR OWN LIBERTY while holding others in bondage.

     At the time blacks were “slaves” in the south, the north was treating the working poor worse than slaves because they had no value once they were starved or worked out. Factory Child labor was very common once the spinning equipement was developed, and children as young as 6-7 were worked 12-18 hours 6 days a week for not even enough to feed them enough to keep body and soul together.

     As each new immigrant group (Irish, Italians etc) came here, they were the newest “bottom rung” on the social ladder and were treated as disposable labor.

     In “Fatal Shore,” the history of Austrailia’s “criminal” immigrants, these people, many of whom were NOT criminals by any standard used today, were treated horribly by the political faction in power in England. The psychopaths who were the “prison wardens” were socially acceptable and what they did to these people is as bad as what happened in Germany during WWII. It is remarkable that any survived.

     The psychopaths among us (humanity) are in my opinion, responslibe for 99.9% of all the problems of the world and our or any society. If all we humans had to deal with was cancer and AIDS and such as that, it would be a paradise on earth compared to now. Consider: no hunger, no crime, no child abuse, no rape, no robbery, no crooked politicians, no jails, and everyone working for the good of society.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 1:03pm

197. skylar says:

     Oxy, Yes, and even many diseases would be less frequent because stress is a component of cancer and autoimmune diseases. The stress of living with a P is life-threatening and financially devastating.

     But I don’t want to bring killing into the analogy because many wars are fought over land or ideology. My point in bringing up slavery is that it is EXACTLY like kidnapping. What happens in a relationship with a P is exactly like that too, only more sinister because you aren’t even aware of what is happening. The lies are your shackles. Both killing and slavery use dehumanizing for justification, but many narcissists are very carefully avoiding outright killing so that they can say they are innocent. I want to focus squarely on denial of personhood, what that is and how it happens so that it is recognized in every manifestation: racism, misogyny, child abuse, kidnapping, slavery, scapegoating, etc…

     I do know that the argument over state’s rights came up later, but I think that was a (typically narcissist) diversionary tactic on the part of the south. The Abolitionists were called that because they wanted to abolish slavery. They got attention from the North because money was at stake. Slavery was cheap labor and gave the South an unfair advantage. I get that. That’s why the financial COST to society has to be part of the argument for change. $$$ is the only thing people get.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 1:26pm

198. Hecates path says:

     Fascinating thread of comments, gang… thanks to all who shared.

     Erin B referenced the craig’s list ads and it reminded me of a disturbing website that I searched once looking for the S (this was long after we broke up and the angry side of me wanted to “catch him” & “expose” him… gave him way too much of my brain rent free!) Anyway, it was called ashleymadison.com and the slogan there was “life is short;have an affair.” It was an entire site dedicated to helping MARRIED/committed people find someone to have an affair with. The”traffic” that came to my false member account within minutes and days was beyond disturbing…

     Like Erin ( i think) said I don’t give a hoot about someone’s sexual orientation… but boy do I have my opinions on people who cheat, gay or straight, as a lifestyle choice… and by that I am not talking about people who unexpectedly find themselves in an affair, due to unhappiness, or being mislead in the partner’s intentions, etc., I mean those who chronically cheat as a lifestyle choice, either with repeated affairs, one night stands, or stranger sex encounters… and in every case putting their unsuspecting partner at risk. that website made me sick.

     well, gee that was a useless soapbox kinda rant, wasn’t it?!

     With regard to Oxy’s comment about how they “profile” us, in hindsight I am “amused” at the fact that the S targeted me at a time when by by all appearances I was pretty vulnerable… 3-4 months post divorce, single, professional mom with three kids (2year old twins!) and an alcoholic ex in rehab,selling a house by the skin of my teeth to avoid foreclosure cuz the ex wasn’t paying at the time… only to be quite surprised when my confident, outgoing, got it all together real self “re-surfaced”. Actually I wasn’t ever truly submerged, it likely just looked that way to the S given the circumstances… Joke was on him, huh?!

     BTW, I can’t go in to details here in public forum but I am on alert these days cuz he’s unfortunately in a position to instigate something with me if he so chooses….and interetstingly while I maintain NC and potted plant stance with him, he seems to have changed tactics to make it appear as if he’s givng me no contact – turning his head when HE sees me, etc…. BUT AT THE SAME TIME maintaing his and his family’s presence in my “turf,” and making a choice that from my vantage point arouses my suspicions of his motivations/intentions. I know this likely doesn’t make sense, but really the point is that, while I do nothing to provoke him, he is going to be one sorry SOB if he chooses to screw with me in this context.

     My best friend says he won’t do anything, he just likes to have the appearance of being the one in control or may truly not care, etc. given he just tied the knot with his new victim and is preoccupied with being prince charming. I, on the other hand, know S’s don’t like to lose, like to win publicly, and may reappear in our world without warning as the need suits them… for sheer narcissitic how dare YOU leave ME purposes, or to cause chaos/ have a cause or a battle to win/detract from the dysfunction that resonates in his world… and he ALWAYS needs a cause to fight for. Or, even just because he KNOWS there’s one person out there (lucky me) that knows too much/knows the truth about who he REALLY is… yep I believe that fact alone could instigate him now, in the days to come, or in years to come… and thus my continued vigilance and belief that you NEVER underestimate an S/P!!! But, as I said I am watching, waiting, and taking precautions/making strategic choices so that should the need arise… I am prepared

     OMG, I sound like him fighting a war, LOL! Am gonna have to give my tactics a fancy sounding name like “Operation: You’ve met Your match” Or better yet. how ’bout “Operation Don’t You Even Dare F*** with Me, You @#$%& Borderline Narcissiopath!”

     Well on that note, LOL, thanks for reading & apologies for monopolizing the thread with such a long post. Had to get in my lovefraud fix and therapy now that I am back to work, I guess. Thanks for letting me spew forth a bit here, friends!
     Hugs,
     Hecate’s path

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 2:16pm

199. Hecates path says:

     Oh yeah… I forgot to add a book recommendation – which was actually why I referenced Oxy’s comment originally and in respons eto the Q’s about how do you “know” who someone is when you first date them etc.

     Hihly recommend “Profiling Your Date – a smart woman’s guide to evaluating a man” by Caroline Presno.

     Even has a nice little section on narcissism and a blurb on how medications and birth control pills could affect how women “choose” men/mate selection based on some newer…
     research…

     Just for the record this book hasn’t helped me find a good man… but it, and my experience with S, of course, have sure helped me to “spot” the multiplicity of Mr. Wrongs!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 2:25pm

200. Hecates path says:

     uh yeah… that should say:

     HIGHLY and BASED ON SOME NEW RESEARCH.

     I think my inability to type coherently today is a sign I need to take a break from posting today, LOL! best be taking my hands off the keyboard for a spell now, and go have a spot of tea… not! It’s off to do laundry… ugh.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 2:34pm

201. jillsmith says:

     This actually clears up some questions I had. I know that my ex was diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I read the Psych file and my therapist at the time, helped me to interpret it. I was very confused then and still am.

     The thing that has confused me the most is how social he seems. I guess I just didn’t understand the disorder that much. It’s interesting to learn that many of them are social and the reasons why make sense. Now I know why he doesn’t have current friends and relies on past friends so heavily on facebook and myspace. If you read his facebook account (Don’t worry, I don’t anymore), he would seem like he has a lot of friends and is very socially well-adjusted. This has always confused me about him. He seemed so likeable and social before I married him. He also taps into his old friendsips a lot. He did this in reconnecting with me after not seeing me for about 10 years. We barely knew each other in college, but he looked me up online that many years later and started a relationship with me. He does this with many people from that college circle of friends. Some in that circle hate him very deeply, while others still adore him and fall prey to his charm. He uses them over and over again and is still using them to get to me and at me. He was much more charming in college. That is for sure. It’s interesting that the article points out that as they grow less charming, they rely on these old friends to use. I find this fascinating and it makes sense. Do they often become les charming with age? Was this concluded from results of a study of some kind?

     One question I have is regarding Borderline Personality Disorder. He was diagnosed with this years before being diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I always assumed before that this meant that he didn’t have Borderline Personality Disorder, but now I’m realizing that he can have both disorders? Is this correct? Can he have both disorders at once? He also was diagnosed with ADD years before any of this. Are people sometimes misdiagnosed with ADD and ADHD when they have some of these major personality disorders and if so, does that mean that they always had these other disorders and just were not correctly diagnosed until adulthood? I always assumed that if someone is re-diagnosed with a new disorder, that it’s saying they don’t really have the disorder they were originally diagnosed with. However, can it mean they have both or all of the disorders and if so, are Sociopaths more or less dangerous when they also exhibit other disorders?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 3:30pm

202. jillsmith says:

     Hecates,

     I can relate to so much in your post. You just described my life with my ex. I’m in a situation that sounds very much the same. I’m also torn between trying to believe that he is just trying to cause me stress and knowing that he will do anything possible to get even with me for leaving him.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 3:35pm

203. justabouthealed says:

     Some P’s like to target strong women, because they get off on bringing them to their knees. I think this is especially true of “high” achieving P’s who also have narcissistic personality disorder. Like Thomas Crown, if you have ever seen that movie. It (the remake) ends with him watching the woman cry….and letting her cry…before he reveals himself and then she is all happy. He loves her after all…..NOT! I’d love to make the sequel. Any man who makes you cry on purpose and enjoys it is not going to give you a happy ever after ending. She ignored all kind of red flags and also had her own vulnerabilities (as we all do), in that she loved excitement, her values weren’t clear, nor were her boundaries.

     I bought “Cosmo” magazine because there is the article in there about p/s. But the rest of the magazine has a LOT of training for how to get involved with a P! The “hot read” love story is about a man announcing he is bad, and a “sweet” girl then jumping into bed with this guy minutes later, when she just met him. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     There is also an article on how guys pick up girls, and all of them (as I recall) involve the guy being INSINCERE and making up a story…..and only for one scenario does COSMO warn this is not a good guy. HELL, none of them are good guys!

     Our young women are being taught it is okay to fall into bed with a man during your first real conversation with him when he has announced that that he is bad and controlling….and that it is okay that guys pretend to need help picking out bath towels, in order to pick you up.

     Not to mention the whole magazine really encourages women to trade on their looks to get a man.

     I realize the older generation usually feels the younger one is shocking. But I’m not shocked so much as depressed. P’s are in control!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 6:25pm

204. justabouthealed says:

     Jillsmith, according to a book by Dr. Oldham, who has written a number books and articles on personality disorders and has a list of creditentials a mile long, men and women who suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder, frequently exhibit features of Histrionic, Borderline, Antisocial and Paranoid personality disorders. Depression is common, as are hypochondria, substance abuse and other things he lists.

     My therapist said it is not unusual for them to fit the criteria for more than one personality disorder.

     With kids, I think they usually are labeled character disturbed. I think the personality disorder diagnosis is not used for children.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 6:31pm

205. skylar says:

     Hey look what I found.
     from:
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

     Theodore Millon identified six types of narcissist:

     normal narcissistic type – by nature a competitive and self-assured person who believes in himself or herself. Charming, clever, confident and ambitious, such a person often becomes an effective and successful leader.
     unprincipled type – the charlatan - is a fraudulent, exploitative, deceptive and unscrupulous individual. Although people displaying this type of narcissism are usually succesful in society and manage to keep their activities within the accepted norms, they can also be found in drug rehabilitation programs, jails and prisons.
     amorous type - the Don Juan or Casanova of our times – is erotic, exhibitionist and seductive, aloof, charming and exploitative, and reluctant to get involved in deep, mutually intimate relationships.
     compensatory type - has illusions of superiority and an image of high self-worth, but with an underlying emptiness, insecurity and weakness. This type is sensitive to others’ reactions and prone to feeling ashamed, anxious and humiliated.
     elitist type – the achiever – corresponds to Wilhelm Reich’s “phallic narcissistic” personality type, with excessively inflated self-image. The individual is elitist, a “social climber”, superior, admiration seeking, self-promoting, bragging and empowered by social success.
     fanatic type - is a severely narcissistically wounded individual, usually with major paranoid tendencies who holds onto an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting the reality of their insignificance and lost value and are trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition of support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission. These people can be found amongst sect leaders, in mental hospitals if their delusions become sustained and extensive, or in prison, if their missions counteract those of society.

     We can devote a how-to column in my new Weekly magazine to each one of these types.

     I believe mine went from charlatan to fanatic because of my constant narcissistic injuries to his fragile ego. I’m ridden with guilt. He said that love should be unconditional and that I was arrogant and that he was tired of my God-like behavior. Now I know it was a cry for help.
     It’s all my fault that he now has delusions of persecution.
     It’s because of my relentless sarcasm. If I’d known I would never have deployed it on him. He tried to tell me.

     LOL!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 7:06pm

206. BloggerT7165 says:

     Jill,

     It is pretty common for people with personality disorders to have another disorder as well. Plus personality disorders are grouped in clusters and it is not all that uncommon for overlap to occur as well. As for being diagnosed with ASPD, a person can not be diagnosed with ASPD until they are an adult so they could have a diagnosis previously as a child (something like Conduct Disorder, ADHD, or ODD) and then later as an adult be diagnosed with ASPD. And different clinicians can have differing opinons on what a person may have depending on the information presented to them and other factors.

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     Saturday, 12 September 2009 @ 11:34pm

207. BloggerT7165 says:

     Here is a link to an article that talks about personality disorders and cluster b ones specifically that you may like:

     http://www.drjoecarver.com/cli.....ers(1).doc

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 4:15am

208. blueskies says:

     hey guys, I am having a pity party and I need a boink up the side of the head. It has been 9 monthes now and during that time I have learnt so much and come so far is so many respects. I have also realised that my close family members abuse and narcissism have lead me to develop some pretty crappy outlooks and behaviours. I have gone no contact with them and the S/P and i feel like the ‘life blood flow’ they were draining from me has been tapped. I have read so much and learnt so much that has helped me to understand what happend and myself, but its like opening the door to Hades… its all something I never wanted to know existed. I know now, really truly, and I belive myself really truly. Any niggling doubts about what these people are, or that I might have got it wrong or that deep down there is still a little love for me fighting to get out, have gone. But now what. (I am heading off to re-read the articles on here right now regarding this ’stage’) I realise I am still in the middle of a process that will ultimately mean a more positive existance, BUT I am feeling SO TIRED, so isolated. I am up the creek financially and have nowhere to turn to family or friendwise right now (although my inner voice tells me this is good because when I get out of it, and I will when I stop with the self pity and get on with it, I will be beholdent to no one, and I need to grow up and not feel like I want someone to save me…need to do it myself…) Anyway… maybe someone should tell me a joke or give me a smack because I think I need both today;)

     Thanks for the vent…I know you guys wont mind. I just needed to get this out.x

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 6:16am

209. witsend says:

     blueskies,
     I think that we all have days like this…What we “know” and what we “feel” sometimes can be two different things.

     Knowing that you were with a toxic person and trying to heal from the consequences of that relationship is a long hard road…It is natural (I think) to come to a place as you are feeling, “now what?”…..When do things get better? When will you FEEL better?

     Intellectually you know that things ARE better, just because you ARE on the road to recovery and NC. However, it doesn’t always “feel” better. Not on those days when you are feeling exahusted, lonely, financially depleted, isolated from family and friends, and emotionally drained.

     Blueskies, my interpretation of your user name is “hope”. Its something we can all relate to….Blueskies, is right up there with rainbows!

     Right now you are experiencing a cloudy day…..Maybe even a thunderstorm….But you know just around the bend, the sun will shine again….The blueskies will return.

     Do something special for yourself today….If you are feeling lazy, rent a few movies and pop some popcorn and just relax. If you need to do something active go for a walk in the park and “people watch”. Or take a bubble bath…..

     Think about how you are “free” from the toxic person in your life (in proximity) and know that at some point in your recovery you will also feel free emotionally. That is the destination. And you will arrive there….Try to “feel” this in your heart today…..That you are on your way to that final destination….Just experiencing a bump in the road.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 7:06am

210. kim frederick says:

     Blueskies, I’m sorry you are feeling blue today. Here’s a (silly) joke to cheer you up.

     Two N’s are walking down the road when they see a beautiful young woman walking towards them. One turns to the other and says, “Quick, Show her your nutts.” The other one sticks his thumbs in his ears, splaying out his fingers and wiggling his hands, yelling, “booga-booga-booga.”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 7:16am

211. geminigirl says:

     Blueskies,
     Were not geriatric yet, but her is a geri joke. This old lady says to her husband,” I feel like some strawberries, theyre in the fridge. can you go get me some?”Sure, honey! he says. As he heads for th kitchen she calls out, “Id like some cream with them too!” “OK, Ive got that”. Oh, and some ice-cream,too! “OK,got all that”! Hubby is a away quite a while,
     then he comes back and puts a plateof bacon and eggs in front of her.”Wait a minute” she says,”You forgot my toast!”
     Another joke. This blonde lady goes to the doctor. “Doctor, she says,”When I press my hip with my finger, it hurts! Oh?
     Yeah, and when I press myhead, it hurts!,Oh,and when I press my stomach it hurts!’ the doctor says,”Are you a natural blonde?” “Yes”, she says.” This is the deal.” says the Dr.”Youve broken your finger.”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 7:21am

212. kim frederick says:

     Hi Gem. I absolutly lovea good blonde joke. Thanks.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 7:24am

213. Liane Leedom, M.D. says:

     Jill says

     One question I have is regarding Borderline Personality Disorder. He was diagnosed with this years before being diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I always assumed before that this meant that he didn’t have Borderline Personality Disorder, but now I’m realizing that he can have both disorders? Is this correct? Can he have both disorders at once? He also was diagnosed with ADD years before any of this. Are people sometimes misdiagnosed with ADD and ADHD when they have some of these major personality disorders and if so, does that mean that they always had these other disorders and just were not correctly diagnosed until adulthood? I always assumed that if someone is re-diagnosed with a new disorder, that it’s saying they don’t really have the disorder they were originally diagnosed with. However, can it mean they have both or all of the disorders and if so, are Sociopaths more or less dangerous when they also exhibit other disorders?

     What a great question. By naming “a disorder” professionals give the impression that there is a distinct entitiy out there with a unique set of brain correlates and a unique etiology. This is simply not true. “Psychopathy” is a set of traits that go together because once one develops the others tend to develop too. See the pages on the inner triangle to understand why.

     High end psychopathy can coexist with just about any other mental disorder.

     The only exception is social anxiety. Psychopaths could care less what others think of them.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 8:07am

214. Hecates path says:

     Blueskies, JillSmith, ErinB, JAH, Henry, & others…

     Blueskies, I am glad some kind folks reached out to you – you didn’t need a boinking because you aren’t doing anything destructive, my friend! You’re just walking a path that’s difficult to navigate – I think we are in the same place in our recovery… I know the reality and would never go back and know myself and what me to the relationship with the S. Atthe same time, I, too am tired because being helathy is hard work and the loneliness and lack of companionship I feel at the end of the day is a challenge. Knowing the reality doesn’t make everything rosy that’s for sure! Glad you got some humor and compassion here… loved the metaphor/acknoledgment of your name from witsend!

     JillSmith,
     I read your post and questions last night but one of my kids came down with a fever so I was doing the mom/nurse thing. Probably worked in your favor, LOL as Dr. Leedom’s reply to you was without a doubt better than anything I could’ve pieced together. I understand the comorbidity of cluster b/sociopathy, but putting it into words is another matter. There is of course the ongoing chicken and egg question of causation, and the combining elements of nature and nurture in their various capacities which of course are situationally unique.

     The antisocial personality disorder tag is misleading too because it has nothing to do with the social nature of the personality but rather the nature of the “anti social” acts they engage in and perpetrate against others/society – as in goig against the nature of societal norms blah, blah, blah. hopefully that came out right in this format. As I said after reading this particular article “they” would have a lot more clarity in the DSM if they tagged it abusive personality disorder! There is also a lot of uncertainty in the diagnosis of childhood onset bipolar and its connection to, misdaignosis of, or comorbidity with ADHD. As someone else mentioned viewing things on a spectrum is the key…
     I am so sorry that things are so challenging for you right now…

     Erin B., I am glad your “rant” made you feel better… I think you and I were in the same mindset this weekend… “The Bring It On Cuz Failure IS NOT an Option” mentality is keeping us both going!! The more I learn of your story the more I admire you for all you are doing for yourself and your children…

     Justabouthealed- I found your comment about S’s targeting strong women very interesting. While I think mine sought me out cuz i appeared to be like his typical victim, due to my situation at the time, I couldn’t agree more that he found the subtle things he did to control me, and later, the not so subtle “come here/go away” behaviors such an enticing challenge and so “rewarding” to him. It was only later that I realized this, of course, having “rationalized” so many things as being the result of his emotional state from his divorce, or his PTSD… as we all know he did those things *because he could*.
     Once I asked him about an activity he enjoyed and he responded by saying “its all about the thrill of the chase” and
     I laughed and said “Gee, what does that say about your relationship with me?” He just smiled and changed the conversation. How *very* telling, now, in hindsight. Later he invited me to join him in that activity the next morning – and it was non-stop adrenaline rush all morning… should’ve told me something about his need for excitement, huh?!

     As for thomas Crowne, I always loved that movie and never realized until after my own S experience that Crowne’s behavior was so controlling and manipulative. That “cat and mouse” mentality in relationships seemed normal to me given the relationships I had observed growing up… Ironically, the first time S and I were having a movie night, I told him I’d always wanted to watch that movie with him because HE “would love the plot dynamics.” Hello, McFly!?! Thinking *he* would relate to *Thomas Crowne* should’ve told me something, eh?! Knowing otherwise could’ve saved my insuranc company a lot of money in therapy costs, LOL! As an aside, we never watched that movie that night because he brought over one he’d been wanting to watch and thought I might like… yeah right – just more controlling behavior…

     And to say he ultimately brought me to my knees when he unexpectedly broke off our relationship with no warning was an understatement… and little did I know that he would continue playing cat and mouse with me for the next several months in various capacities and stringing me along with his flirtations, with me waiting to see when he would cross the line to sleep with me again… now I know the answer to that Q: *never* if *I* kept waiting and watching for him to make a move, and within 5 minutes, LOL, if I would’ve sent the message that he was invisible to me, cuz we all know that when I ultimately did cut him off from my life in any capacity and ignored him publicly, it resulted in all hell breaking loose with his false police charges against me…

     Loved the responses to the glued penis story, too! Henry, I laughed/snorted when I read yours about the mug shot picture… went back to look & you are so right! LMAO!

     Have a great day, everyone – ’til next time
     HP

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 11:15am

215. Hecates path says:

     Good gracious I am an embarrassment to english teachers everywhere, and my highschool typing teacher, LOL, with ALL those typos in my last post.
     Ummm, I guess that’s what that preview button should be used for!!! APOLOGIES!
     I think you’re all intelligent enough to figure them out so I won’t insult you with corrections other than to correct the verb tense of “was an undertstatement” to “is/would be an understatement”

     Thanks for putting up with me… (said with a most sheepish grin)

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 11:25am

216. blueskies says:

     witsend, Kim and Gem, HP. Thanks for your replies guys.xxx Much love. xxx I just needed to get it out, somewhere!x

     Witsend you really made a difference in shifting my thought gear today:)x and I love the jokes Gem and Kim!:Dx. I am better now, just needed a little hand hold! (Sheesh when will this end?!) Now I will get back to reading instead of needing(yukko);)xxxx

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 1:13pm

217. geminigirl says:

     Dearest Blueskies,Im glad you liked the blonde joke! You do NOT need a boink on the haead ,you need a group CYBER HUG!! Altogether now, GROUP CYBER HUG to Blueskies!! Dont beat yourself up dear blue, weve all been there, done that got the T shirts to prove it!LOL!
     {{{{HUGS!!!}}}} times one hundred squared! Gem.XX

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 6:02pm

218. skylar says:

     Everyone, those jokes were good medicine. thanks
     Blueskies, I cried for hours last night and felt better today. Usually, I avoid crying because it puffs up my eyes for 2 days, I look like death. But for some reason, it may have helped my attitude a small bit.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 13 September 2009 @ 11:02pm

219. henry says:

     Joke – An old woman goes to store and buys crotchless panties. When husband comes home she is sitting on bed legs apart, she ask him “Honey you want some of this?” Husband say’s ” Hell no! look what it did too your panties!”

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 14 September 2009 @ 1:31am

220. Janey says:

     Dear Blueskies,

     Sorry to hear your feeling down. This road to healing is the loneliest & scariest road we’l ever walk but no matter how lonely or afraid I get I will never turn back.

     Ive always found that at my most terrifying times I am all alone. No-one “gets it” or understands. I have often sunk to the floor in utter despair & in indescribable pain clutching my cell phone & scrolling through contacts wondering who to call.
     Then realizing “whats the point”? “They wont understand”!

     Its during those times when I thought I had no-one that I prayed to God, I now believe those times of alone-ness with
     God is beneficial to my healing. After every emotional breakdown (and there are many) I feel a sense of peace & renewed strength.

     Know your never really alone Blueskies, God is always with you, carrying you a few more miles nearer to the end of our long lonely road to recovery.

     You are worth every step you take, every painful step is a step further away from your abusers & a step nearer to your true value & worth.

     I found the following on the net, it will explain what I am trying to say better than I can Blueskies. Hope it helps cheer your day. xxx

     Value

     A well known speaker started off his seminar by holding up a $20 bill. In the room of 200, he asked, “Who would like this $20 bill?”
     Hands started going up.
     He said, “I am going to give this $20 to one of you but first, let me do this.” He proceeded to crumple the dollar bill up.
     He then asked, “Who still wants it?”
     Still the hands were up in the air.
     “Well,” he replied, “What if I do this?” And he dropped it on the ground and started to grind it into the floor with his shoe

     .
     He picked it up, now all crumpled and dirty. “Now who still wants it?” Still the hands went into the air.
     “My friends, you have all learned a very valuable lesson. No matter what I did to the money, you still wanted it because it did not decrease in value. It was still worth $20.
     Many times in our lives, we are dropped, crumpled, and ground into the dirt by the decisions we make and the circumstances that come our way.
     We feel as though we are worthless. But no matter what has happened or what will happen, you will never lose your value. You are special – Don’t ever forget it!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 14 September 2009 @ 4:52am

221. DancingWarrior says:

     Dear Liane,
     TO your qeustions, “Is there anyone who still has trouble accepting that partner abusers are sociopaths?”

     I don’t totally get it.

     “Sociopath” and “psychopath” are harsh labels–Sleeping with the Enemy or Hannibal come to mind. When I think of my husband, who brought a rocking chair so I can nurse our daughter more comfortably, or who ran out to buy a word processor so I can type papers for grad school–I DO have trouble labeling him a sociopath.

     Yes, I see that he displayed abusive behaviors and this led me to separate from him. But I still have a hard time accepting that he is a sociopath. (Which makes my decision to divorce so hard).

     Thank you.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 December 2009 @ 8:21pm

222. LouiseGolem says:

     This is really a wonderful article, and really addresses where I’m at right now, at least. And Dancing Warrior, but I sympathize with you. Right now, I’m caught between the horror of my own coming to understand I was with an abuser (though I was never physically abused, just verbally – mentally and emotionally – things were escalating over the summer to a point where I feared he would physically abuse me, or hurt me quite severely ) and struggling with understanding how this man could also be so kind. Just today I was pulling out all my cold weather stuff, and came across the seat heater he bought me for my car, and the electric throw blanket he bought me to keep me warm when he wasn’t around. There was something oh so sweet in him, too. It’s baffling sometimes, and all I want to do is cry. . . .Is he a sociopath? There was one day I think he even went so far as to call himself a psychopath. And I didn’t want to hear it.

     thanks for a great post

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 December 2009 @ 9:46pm

223. OxDrover says:

     Dancing Warrior,

     Let me tell you about my son, he really is a great guy, he is very bright and charming, and he used to help me treat sick animals and would bring home stray dogs and take care of them, and you know he is SUCH a good guy, when he is not killing people (He is in prison for murder)

     Warrior, even psychopaths are not “mean” all the time 24/7 sometimes they pretend to be nice guys, just like my son does, but while he was being “nice to me” the last time I saw him, he was at that very moment, plotting to KILL ME.

     I realize this is a pretty out there thing, but NO ONE is “nice” all the time and no one is “mean” all the time, but what a person;’s character is determined by whether or not they realize or care how badly they hurt others. Or if they can truly repent and CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.

     If your husband is abusive to you, it does not matter if he qualifies for psychopath or any other word passed “jerk”—does that mean you should stay with anyone who will not accept responsibility fo rhis bad behavior or even realisticly try to change?

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 December 2009 @ 11:14pm

224. sotired says:

     HeCates Path Said:
     And to say he ultimately brought me to my knees when he unexpectedly broke off our relationship with no warning was an understatement… and little did I know that he would continue playing cat and mouse with me for the next several months in various capacities and stringing me along with his flirtations, with me waiting to see when he would cross the line to sleep with me again… now I know the answer to that Q: *never* if *I* kept waiting and watching for him to make a move, and within 5 minutes, LOL, if I would’ve sent the message that he was invisible to me, cuz we all know that when I ultimately did cut him off from my life in any capacity and ignored him publicly, it resulted in all hell breaking loose with his false police charges against me…

     MYSELF, Sotired ———
     At no contact for 5 weeks, the longest we haven’t talked or seen each other in 8 years I am feeling creepy like any time the next shoe will drop.

     Last we spoke he wasn’t playing cat/mouse with me so much, but, he is still what he is. He didn’t call back when he said he would and that to me says if he cared he would have. I was undergoing medical testing for cancer and he didn’t follow up.

     Now, I feel sad pity and getting to a peaceful place in my journey of healing and I’m scared of *what?* Peace!?! Fear is ruling again and I have to deal with it again I guess and nothing else has happened. (PTSD? yes I guess so.)

     One of, just one of his questions I now see in hindsight was, “do you like rollercoasters?” and I honestly answered yes. HOW revealing is THaT?????

     Again today I’m so glad to have this place to go when I need to and not dialing any more unbelieving friends or friends that want to scream how stupid could I be.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Monday, 7 December 2009 @ 11:51pm

225. sotired says:

     sotired says:
     Just to make myself clear I don not have cancer. Sorry I didn’t make that clear but didn’t want any one to think otherwise.

     Thanks and goodnight.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 12:00am

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     Logged in as sotired. Logout »

     Okay , this should have been on another post. Obviously I am sotired.

     Should have been on THIS post. Sorry.

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 12:03am

226. ErinBrock says:

     Sotired:
     So glad your NOT in the C club! It’s a sucky club to belong to and one none of us join willingly!
     BUT……S’s sure don’t give a shit about Cancer or anything else……
     The S was a horrid mess to me during my battle……also to his father……who wasn;t as lucky as me….
     He took all his fights to the family during his fathers battle….it was all about HIM…..always is! the last time he saw his father….he went to the hospital sat with him, and then called me….to schmooze me……up……I nailed him, because at this point…..WTF was I to do…..He wanted ME to find a specialist for his father…..he sat next to his dad and unloaded what a bitch i was etc…blah, blah…..THIS MAN WAS DYING…..and all he could do was talk about himself or HIS marital problems…..from there he went to his mothers home, who was devastated with her husbands illness and the S started total shit with her and his aunt……she asked him to leave her home……….
     This was about 1.5 years ago…….father passed, S refused to show up at funeral…..so he could draw attention to himself AGAIN……They just hate anyone else getting attention……dead or alive!!!!

     He exploited me during my illness…….same sort of shit…..but did it under my nose in my community…..when one sort of attention bored him, he turned up the heat….turned it into I was dying…..then I faked it…..WTF????
     NO NORMAL PERSON would EVER exploit concern for a ‘loved one’.

     Cancer was the best gift I ever ‘didnt’ want’……
     I’m cancer free…..walking, talking, fighting, and raising awareness…..and I am FREE……

     It’s mind boggeling how they are so callouse. Don’t expect anything less from them!!!!

     Congrats on your 5 weeks…..by now you should be feeling the empowerment of “I can do this’…..and also noticing the power you have over him by going NC!

     NC is a wonderful choice!!!!!
     Congrats again!!!!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 12:19am

227. henry says:

     who pulled up this old thread? I can’t believe I told that joke here..

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 11:26am

228. sotired says:

     ErinBrock,
     Sorry to hear your battle but if we’re here at LB we’ve had one. It’s so difficult tio believe like you said “it was all about HIM.” Glad to hear you are cancer free too. NC is good and finally I do feel the empowerment. Hoping the empowerment will stay around, I’m NEVER going back to a relationship with these traits in it. I know I could relapse because I do believe I had/have an addiction to these personalities so by working on me maybe I will stay healthier.

     henry,
     I pulled it up and ummm…… hope you are doing good today and have found many of your posts helpful.

     gotta run, never have enough time to stay here very long and then I lose my spot

     (Report abusive comment)

     Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 12:38pm

229. DancingWarrior says:

     OxDrover,
     Haven’t seen your reply here until now. Thank you for telling me about your son.

     My husband says he KNOWS that his actions have hurt me, says he is SORRY that he’s hurt be, he admits that I couldn’t have helped fix marriage because he wouldn’t HEAR me years ago and wouldn’t LET me. Sounds good.

     But when I tell him that the old behaviors may have different packaging today, but the core issue is still here, and I list the past behaviors “punching holes in walls, kicking file cabinets, breaking down door jambs” he gets angry and says it’s in the past, or justifies himself that he did this BECAUSE he was afraid I’d blind the baby by exposing the crib to sunlight, or BECAUSE I said I’d jump off the bridge with the baby (which I never said and it’s totally out of character for me to say). So then, the above apologies seem totally phoney because since I separated from him and brought up these violent behaviors, he has looked for a rationalization.

     I have such a hard time getting over “magical thinking” about his good side, being smart, loyal, funny, devoted, reliable. I FORGET the inexcusable behaviors that have made me alone, hurt, unhappy.

     I am having a real hard time letting go of him, and taking care of myself.

     DW

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 3:17pm

230. OxDrover says:

     Dear DW,

     That’s the thing, they create their own “reality” which is NOT real at all, but their excuses, their lies to make you crazy, this is called “gaslighting” and that’s what it means, it is from and old movie where a guy tried to convince his wife she was crazy.

     This gaslighting thing is just that, it is their twisting of reality. Saying you said or did something that is not true, acting like they believe it.

     Read steve’s lastest article about a “defense mechanisim”–the thing is that the PAST IS BEING REPEATED NOW, so the past IS IMPORTANT because he wants to focus on ONE item and not on the WHOLE PICTURE.

     That’s what I was doing with my son C, who is NOT a psychopath like my other son, but unfortunately, was not acting responsibly and I kept focusing on the “now” and ignoring the REPEATED PATTERN. I asked him to leave my house and he can fend for himself. I am only responsible for raising him once, but for continuing to do it. He is 40 years old, time to grow up, guy. It breaks my heart, he has many good qualities, and not everyone who acts irresponsibaly is psychopathic but if it is a question of LIES OR TRUTH, vote for believing the trust, believing what you SEE not what excuses they give! It is difficult because we WANT to believe the best about those we love. But the thing is if someone keeps on repeating the same behavior over and over and doesn’t take responsibility for his/her actions they are not going to.
     ‘
     They are toxic and don’t do you any good at all. You can’t fix him, and he won’t fix himself.

     Good luck, sweetie, be strong. You are. I just fell apart for 48 hours this week, but I am working on getting back to where I was, peaceful, chaos-free life and my home is a LIE-FREE ZONE. No liars allowed. You are my son/friend/mother/lover etc. and you LIE, well now you are a GONE SOB! BYE!

     (Report abusive comment)

     Saturday, 2 January 2010 @ 11:12pm

231. Genevieve79 says:

     Lets not get the genuine mental illnesses (based on an imblance in brain chemistry) confused with personality disorders, based on behaviour.
     Biploar is classed as a brain chemistry imbalance, a ‘true’ mental illness, as is schizophrenia, depression, anxiety etc. The person with it has little control over it until a successful medication treatment is found. Behavioural change comes into play certainly (from habits developed druing non treatment) but the most initial improvement comes from medication. Most people with genuine ‘classic’ mental illnesses turn on themselves before on others and have an overdelveloped sense of guilt.
     The personality disorders on the other hand – antisocial, borderline, histrionic etc – are all behaviourally based and can be very much in the control of the person experiencing it. The most successful treatment is focused more on behaviour than medication, though some medication can play a part. Those with personality disordered tend to lash out and blame everybody else.
     This is the difference and i feel we have to be careful not to unwittingly insult those suffering against their will with brains that do not work properly to put them in the same category as those who are so self centred they have chose to opt out of society and flout every decency rule there is.
     I just feel we need to be really clear on this. Nine times out of ten the personality disordered individual knows exactly what they are doing and has chosen this way of life very early on in their development in response to their early environment. I’d even go so far as to say that some are that way before they are born lol, if you believe in that sort of thing!
     The genuinely mentally ill individual can’t help their behaviour and deep down (some hide it very well though pride) feels genuine distress, embarrassment and empathy for those around them upon whom they are a burden.
     Conversely the personality disordered individual, right from the tiniest hint of borderline up to the most callous psychopath couldn’t give a crap.
     I know because I have worked in mental health before and also I have suffered with chronic depresson for many years. Believe me it is like looking at myself from the outside when I have a bad day because it isn’t ‘me’ it’s my crazy brain chemistry! It’s a physical problem treated well with medication, I’m probably producng too much or too little of a neurochemical or two, and I feel deep distress for the burden I am on my loved ones and friends when I have a bad day and can’t take part in normal life with them.
     Personality disorders? The problem is not their brain, it is ‘them’!! It is who they are, who they have allowed themselves to become and only they can change it.
     It’s amazing how many personality disordered individuals fool doctors and society into putting them into the same category as those of us with genuine mental illnesses. I have a family member like that – bltatantly personality disordered, every antiscoical trait in the DSM IV and yet her psychiatrist suspects she is schizophrenic! Nooooooo!!! I feel like yelling, She’s a Sociopath!! It’s obvious!! They are not the stuff of Hollywood!! Wakey wakey!!!
     My reality check for sociopaths is this – my IQ has been tested as being in the top 2%/2.5% of population. Sociopaths are thought to make up as much as 4% of the population right? So get this – you have double the chance of meeting one of them as you have of meeting me, for every one of me there is roughly two of them. And I’m sitting here typing to you right now…you’ve ‘met’ me right?
     Go figure hehe!!!! Sobering thought huh! =D
     Genevieve xxx

     (Report abusive comment)

     Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 12:00pm

232. Genevieve79 says:

     Yes Pinow I think the difference between one end of the personality disorder spectrum and the worst end is the level of callousness they’re capable of. It goes up the closer to APD you go in my view =) xx

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     Sunday, 3 January 2010 @ 12:04pm

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