The nature of the “abusive personality”
PDF Unfortunately clinicians and researchers often tend to interact with a specific segment of our society and to develop their own ways of describing the problems of the people they work with. For example, there are professionals who work with clients who have “personality disorders”, there are professionals who work with criminals in the justice system and there are professionals who work with perpetrators of domestic abuse/violence.
Each of these three groups of professionals has their own lingo for describing very similar people with very similar patterns of behavior. Each group also has a different “theoretical orientation” or view of the problems of humanity.
Because those who work with family abusers often lack experience with sociopaths in other settings they do not know that family abusers are sociopaths.
Where does that leave you, a victim or family member of a disordered, abusive individual?
To spare you the task of sorting through these three distinct ways of looking at the person who created havoc in your life, with the help of The Abusive Personality, I will present here more on the work of Dr. Dutton a psychologist who understand the personality profile of abusers.
First of all, I can say with confidence that individuals who abuse and victimize lovers, friends and family members are personality disordered. As Dr. Dutton points out on page 8 of The Abusive Personality, “Because IPV (intimate partner violence) occurs in a minority of relationships it cannot be explained by social norms. In fact, normative acceptance of IPV is low in North American populations. .. When people act in a chronically dysfunctional manner that violates the norms of their culture, their behavior is attributable to a personality disorder.”
Dr. Dutton makes a compelling argument that the “abusive personality” stems from what is known as borderline personality organization. According to psychoanalyst Otto Kernberg, adult and adolescent patients with antisocial personality possess an underlying borderline personality organization. Attachment theorists also suggests an association between borderline personality disorder and antisocial behavior or even antisocial personality disorder. Dr. Dutton acknowledges that many perpetrators are violent and antisocial outside the family and many appear to completely lack empathy and remorse. All chronic perpetrators have an extreme inability to empathize with their victims and seem to only express remorse as a means of maintaining the relationship. These emotional deficits are considered to be diagnostic of sociopathy.
According to Dr. Dutton, both male and female abusers experience cyclical changes in personality that relate to abuse perpetration. These cycles, have interfered with understanding the personality of abusers. The cycles happen because abusers experience a great deal of negative emotion and they blame this negative emotion on those closest to them. After they “blow off steam” by abusing loved ones, they experience a temporary relief from these negative emotions. During the time they “feel better” they may seem like model spouses and parents.
In my opinion, there are four other characteristics of men and women who perpetrate partner/family abuse that have interfered with our understanding that these abusers are psychopathic and are truly sociopaths. These are:
1. The degree to which they cling to those whom they abuse.
2. Their high level of anxiety and other negative emotions.
3. Lack of abuse of strangers and non-family members.
4. Lack of criminal arrest for other offenses.
I want to address each of these characteristics by asking then answering the related questions people have asked me over the years.
Question #1 Does the fact that my ______________ keeps calling and doesn’t want to lose me mean that deep down he/she really loves me?
Answer#1 NO! Although sociopaths are not capable of love they are very social and most often want to count themselves in as part of a family, extended family and friendship network. If they are alone how will they be able to do what they do best which is abuse and control people? Also if they are alone, how can they use people to get the other things they want. Especially as sociopaths get older and their ability to charm others declines they tend to want to stick with those they have taken advantage of in the past.
Question #2 My poor _________ is just depressed/anxious/angry about being mistreated and abused as a child. Won’t my love and reassurance help him/her get over it?
Answer #2 NO! If your______ has a long standing pattern of abusing you and/or other family members it means something very important so listen. It means he or she equates abuse with being in a relationship, just like you equate love and caring with being in a relationship. Since that is true, your love will only make the person more abusive.
Question#3 My ___________ only abuses me and no one else so it must be my fault. Right?
Answer #3 NO! Your __________ would abuse others if he/she thought he/she could get away with it and will abuse anyone else he/she feels close ties with. An intimate relationship brings out abusive behavior in people who have a borderline personality organization.
Question#4 My _____________ has never been arrested can he/she still be a sociopath?
Answer #4 YES! Antisocial behavior is behavior that hurts other people. When this hurtful behavior is perpetrated by someone who lacks empathy or remorse it reflects psychopathy/sociopathy.
In summary, I recommend that all mental health professionals who work with the victims and family members of sociopaths read Dr. Dutton’s book The Abusive Personality. I also recommend another of Dr. Dutton’s books, The Batterer a Psychological Profile for victims of domestic violence. Order it through Amazon today with these links:
The Abusive Personality
The Batterer a Psychological Profile
Does anyone want me to try to explain what “borderline personality organization” is?
Is there anyone who still has trouble accepting that partner abusers are sociopaths?
written by Liane Leedom, M.D. • Permalink •
jillsmith says:
This actually clears up some questions I had. I know that my ex was diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I read the Psych file and my therapist at the time, helped me to interpret it. I was very confused then and still am.
The thing that has confused me the most is how social he seems. I guess I just didn’t understand the disorder that much. It’s interesting to learn that many of them are social and the reasons why make sense. Now I know why he doesn’t have current friends and relies on past friends so heavily on facebook and myspace. If you read his facebook account (Don’t worry, I don’t anymore), he would seem like he has a lot of friends and is very socially well-adjusted. This has always confused me about him. He seemed so likeable and social before I married him. He also taps into his old friendsips a lot. He did this in reconnecting with me after not seeing me for about 10 years. We barely knew each other in college, but he looked me up online that many years later and started a relationship with me. He does this with many people from that college circle of friends. Some in that circle hate him very deeply, while others still adore him and fall prey to his charm. He uses them over and over again and is still using them to get to me and at me. He was much more charming in college. That is for sure. It’s interesting that the article points out that as they grow less charming, they rely on these old friends to use. I find this fascinating and it makes sense. Do they often become les charming with age? Was this concluded from results of a study of some kind?
One question I have is regarding Borderline Personality Disorder. He was diagnosed with this years before being diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I always assumed before that this meant that he didn’t have Borderline Personality Disorder, but now I’m realizing that he can have both disorders? Is this correct? Can he have both disorders at once? He also was diagnosed with ADD years before any of this. Are people sometimes misdiagnosed with ADD and ADHD when they have some of these major personality disorders and if so, does that mean that they always had these other disorders and just were not correctly diagnosed until adulthood? I always assumed that if someone is re-diagnosed with a new disorder, that it’s saying they don’t really have the disorder they were originally diagnosed with. However, can it mean they have both or all of the disorders and if so, are Sociopaths more or less dangerous when they also exhibit other disorders?
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jillsmith says:
Hecates,
I can relate to so much in your post. You just described my life with my ex. I’m in a situation that sounds very much the same. I’m also torn between trying to believe that he is just trying to cause me stress and knowing that he will do anything possible to get even with me for leaving him.
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justabouthealed says:
Some P’s like to target strong women, because they get off on bringing them to their knees. I think this is especially true of “high” achieving P’s who also have narcissistic personality disorder. Like Thomas Crown, if you have ever seen that movie. It (the remake) ends with him watching the woman cry….and letting her cry…before he reveals himself and then she is all happy. He loves her after all…..NOT! I’d love to make the sequel. Any man who makes you cry on purpose and enjoys it is not going to give you a happy ever after ending. She ignored all kind of red flags and also had her own vulnerabilities (as we all do), in that she loved excitement, her values weren’t clear, nor were her boundaries.
I bought “Cosmo” magazine because there is the article in there about p/s. But the rest of the magazine has a LOT of training for how to get involved with a P! The “hot read” love story is about a man announcing he is bad, and a “sweet” girl then jumping into bed with this guy minutes later, when she just met him. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is also an article on how guys pick up girls, and all of them (as I recall) involve the guy being INSINCERE and making up a story…..and only for one scenario does COSMO warn this is not a good guy. HELL, none of them are good guys!
Our young women are being taught it is okay to fall into bed with a man during your first real conversation with him when he has announced that that he is bad and controlling….and that it is okay that guys pretend to need help picking out bath towels, in order to pick you up.
Not to mention the whole magazine really encourages women to trade on their looks to get a man.
I realize the older generation usually feels the younger one is shocking. But I’m not shocked so much as depressed. P’s are in control!
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justabouthealed says:
Jillsmith, according to a book by Dr. Oldham, who has written a number books and articles on personality disorders and has a list of creditentials a mile long, men and women who suffer from Narcissistic personality disorder, frequently exhibit features of Histrionic, Borderline, Antisocial and Paranoid personality disorders. Depression is common, as are hypochondria, substance abuse and other things he lists.
My therapist said it is not unusual for them to fit the criteria for more than one personality disorder.
With kids, I think they usually are labeled character disturbed. I think the personality disorder diagnosis is not used for children.
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skylar says:
Hey look what I found.
from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism
Theodore Millon identified six types of narcissist:
normal narcissistic type – by nature a competitive and self-assured person who believes in himself or herself. Charming, clever, confident and ambitious, such a person often becomes an effective and successful leader.
unprincipled type – the charlatan - is a fraudulent, exploitative, deceptive and unscrupulous individual. Although people displaying this type of narcissism are usually succesful in society and manage to keep their activities within the accepted norms, they can also be found in drug rehabilitation programs, jails and prisons.
amorous type - the Don Juan or Casanova of our times – is erotic, exhibitionist and seductive, aloof, charming and exploitative, and reluctant to get involved in deep, mutually intimate relationships.
compensatory type - has illusions of superiority and an image of high self-worth, but with an underlying emptiness, insecurity and weakness. This type is sensitive to others’ reactions and prone to feeling ashamed, anxious and humiliated.
elitist type – the achiever – corresponds to Wilhelm Reich’s “phallic narcissistic” personality type, with excessively inflated self-image. The individual is elitist, a “social climber”, superior, admiration seeking, self-promoting, bragging and empowered by social success.
fanatic type - is a severely narcissistically wounded individual, usually with major paranoid tendencies who holds onto an illusion of omnipotence. These people are fighting the reality of their insignificance and lost value and are trying to re-establish their self-esteem through grandiose fantasies and self-reinforcement. When unable to gain recognition of support from others, they take on the role of a heroic or worshipped person with a grandiose mission. These people can be found amongst sect leaders, in mental hospitals if their delusions become sustained and extensive, or in prison, if their missions counteract those of society.
We can devote a how-to column in my new Weekly magazine to each one of these types.
I believe mine went from charlatan to fanatic because of my constant narcissistic injuries to his fragile ego. I’m ridden with guilt. He said that love should be unconditional and that I was arrogant and that he was tired of my God-like behavior. Now I know it was a cry for help.
It’s all my fault that he now has delusions of persecution.
It’s because of my relentless sarcasm. If I’d known I would never have deployed it on him. He tried to tell me.
LOL!
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BloggerT7165 says:
Jill,
It is pretty common for people with personality disorders to have another disorder as well. Plus personality disorders are grouped in clusters and it is not all that uncommon for overlap to occur as well. As for being diagnosed with ASPD, a person can not be diagnosed with ASPD until they are an adult so they could have a diagnosis previously as a child (something like Conduct Disorder, ADHD, or ODD) and then later as an adult be diagnosed with ASPD. And different clinicians can have differing opinons on what a person may have depending on the information presented to them and other factors.
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BloggerT7165 says:
Here is a link to an article that talks about personality disorders and cluster b ones specifically that you may like:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/cli.....ers(1).doc
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blueskies says:
hey guys, I am having a pity party and I need a boink up the side of the head. It has been 9 monthes now and during that time I have learnt so much and come so far is so many respects. I have also realised that my close family members abuse and narcissism have lead me to develop some pretty crappy outlooks and behaviours. I have gone no contact with them and the S/P and i feel like the ‘life blood flow’ they were draining from me has been tapped. I have read so much and learnt so much that has helped me to understand what happend and myself, but its like opening the door to Hades… its all something I never wanted to know existed. I know now, really truly, and I belive myself really truly. Any niggling doubts about what these people are, or that I might have got it wrong or that deep down there is still a little love for me fighting to get out, have gone. But now what. (I am heading off to re-read the articles on here right now regarding this ‘stage’) I realise I am still in the middle of a process that will ultimately mean a more positive existance, BUT I am feeling SO TIRED, so isolated. I am up the creek financially and have nowhere to turn to family or friendwise right now (although my inner voice tells me this is good because when I get out of it, and I will when I stop with the self pity and get on with it, I will be beholdent to no one, and I need to grow up and not feel like I want someone to save me…need to do it myself…) Anyway… maybe someone should tell me a joke or give me a smack because I think I need both today;)
Thanks for the vent…I know you guys wont mind. I just needed to get this out.x
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witsend says:
blueskies,
I think that we all have days like this…What we “know” and what we “feel” sometimes can be two different things.
Knowing that you were with a toxic person and trying to heal from the consequences of that relationship is a long hard road…It is natural (I think) to come to a place as you are feeling, “now what?”…..When do things get better? When will you FEEL better?
Intellectually you know that things ARE better, just because you ARE on the road to recovery and NC. However, it doesn’t always “feel” better. Not on those days when you are feeling exahusted, lonely, financially depleted, isolated from family and friends, and emotionally drained.
Blueskies, my interpretation of your user name is “hope”. Its something we can all relate to….Blueskies, is right up there with rainbows!
Right now you are experiencing a cloudy day…..Maybe even a thunderstorm….But you know just around the bend, the sun will shine again….The blueskies will return.
Do something special for yourself today….If you are feeling lazy, rent a few movies and pop some popcorn and just relax. If you need to do something active go for a walk in the park and “people watch”. Or take a bubble bath…..
Think about how you are “free” from the toxic person in your life (in proximity) and know that at some point in your recovery you will also feel free emotionally. That is the destination. And you will arrive there….Try to “feel” this in your heart today…..That you are on your way to that final destination….Just experiencing a bump in the road.
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kim frederick says:
Blueskies, I’m sorry you are feeling blue today. Here’s a (silly) joke to cheer you up.
Two N’s are walking down the road when they see a beautiful young woman walking towards them. One turns to the other and says, “Quick, Show her your nutts.” The other one sticks his thumbs in his ears, splaying out his fingers and wiggling his hands, yelling, “booga-booga-booga.”
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geminigirl says:
Blueskies,
Were not geriatric yet, but her is a geri joke. This old lady says to her husband,” I feel like some strawberries, theyre in the fridge. can you go get me some?”Sure, honey! he says. As he heads for th kitchen she calls out, “Id like some cream with them too!” “OK, Ive got that”. Oh, and some ice-cream,too! “OK,got all that”! Hubby is a away quite a while,
then he comes back and puts a plateof bacon and eggs in front of her.”Wait a minute” she says,”You forgot my toast!”
Another joke. This blonde lady goes to the doctor. “Doctor, she says,”When I press my hip with my finger, it hurts! Oh?
Yeah, and when I press myhead, it hurts!,Oh,and when I press my stomach it hurts!’ the doctor says,”Are you a natural blonde?” “Yes”, she says.” This is the deal.” says the Dr.”Youve broken your finger.”
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kim frederick says:
Hi Gem. I absolutly lovea good blonde joke. Thanks.
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Liane Leedom, M.D. says:
Jill says
One question I have is regarding Borderline Personality Disorder. He was diagnosed with this years before being diagnosed with Anti-Social Personality Disorder. I always assumed before that this meant that he didn’t have Borderline Personality Disorder, but now I’m realizing that he can have both disorders? Is this correct? Can he have both disorders at once? He also was diagnosed with ADD years before any of this. Are people sometimes misdiagnosed with ADD and ADHD when they have some of these major personality disorders and if so, does that mean that they always had these other disorders and just were not correctly diagnosed until adulthood? I always assumed that if someone is re-diagnosed with a new disorder, that it’s saying they don’t really have the disorder they were originally diagnosed with. However, can it mean they have both or all of the disorders and if so, are Sociopaths more or less dangerous when they also exhibit other disorders?
What a great question. By naming “a disorder” professionals give the impression that there is a distinct entitiy out there with a unique set of brain correlates and a unique etiology. This is simply not true. “Psychopathy” is a set of traits that go together because once one develops the others tend to develop too. See the pages on the inner triangle to understand why.
High end psychopathy can coexist with just about any other mental disorder.
The only exception is social anxiety. Psychopaths could care less what others think of them.
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Hecates path says:
Blueskies, JillSmith, ErinB, JAH, Henry, & others…
Blueskies, I am glad some kind folks reached out to you – you didn’t need a boinking because you aren’t doing anything destructive, my friend! You’re just walking a path that’s difficult to navigate – I think we are in the same place in our recovery… I know the reality and would never go back and know myself and what me to the relationship with the S. Atthe same time, I, too am tired because being helathy is hard work and the loneliness and lack of companionship I feel at the end of the day is a challenge. Knowing the reality doesn’t make everything rosy that’s for sure! Glad you got some humor and compassion here… loved the metaphor/acknoledgment of your name from witsend!
JillSmith,
I read your post and questions last night but one of my kids came down with a fever so I was doing the mom/nurse thing. Probably worked in your favor, LOL as Dr. Leedom’s reply to you was without a doubt better than anything I could’ve pieced together. I understand the comorbidity of cluster b/sociopathy, but putting it into words is another matter. There is of course the ongoing chicken and egg question of causation, and the combining elements of nature and nurture in their various capacities which of course are situationally unique.
The antisocial personality disorder tag is misleading too because it has nothing to do with the social nature of the personality but rather the nature of the “anti social” acts they engage in and perpetrate against others/society – as in goig against the nature of societal norms blah, blah, blah. hopefully that came out right in this format. As I said after reading this particular article “they” would have a lot more clarity in the DSM if they tagged it abusive personality disorder! There is also a lot of uncertainty in the diagnosis of childhood onset bipolar and its connection to, misdaignosis of, or comorbidity with ADHD. As someone else mentioned viewing things on a spectrum is the key…
I am so sorry that things are so challenging for you right now…
Erin B., I am glad your “rant” made you feel better… I think you and I were in the same mindset this weekend… “The Bring It On Cuz Failure IS NOT an Option” mentality is keeping us both going!! The more I learn of your story the more I admire you for all you are doing for yourself and your children…
Justabouthealed- I found your comment about S’s targeting strong women very interesting. While I think mine sought me out cuz i appeared to be like his typical victim, due to my situation at the time, I couldn’t agree more that he found the subtle things he did to control me, and later, the not so subtle “come here/go away” behaviors such an enticing challenge and so “rewarding” to him. It was only later that I realized this, of course, having “rationalized” so many things as being the result of his emotional state from his divorce, or his PTSD… as we all know he did those things *because he could*.
Once I asked him about an activity he enjoyed and he responded by saying “its all about the thrill of the chase” and
I laughed and said “Gee, what does that say about your relationship with me?” He just smiled and changed the conversation. How *very* telling, now, in hindsight. Later he invited me to join him in that activity the next morning – and it was non-stop adrenaline rush all morning… should’ve told me something about his need for excitement, huh?!
As for thomas Crowne, I always loved that movie and never realized until after my own S experience that Crowne’s behavior was so controlling and manipulative. That “cat and mouse” mentality in relationships seemed normal to me given the relationships I had observed growing up… Ironically, the first time S and I were having a movie night, I told him I’d always wanted to watch that movie with him because HE “would love the plot dynamics.” Hello, McFly!?! Thinking *he* would relate to *Thomas Crowne* should’ve told me something, eh?! Knowing otherwise could’ve saved my insuranc company a lot of money in therapy costs, LOL! As an aside, we never watched that movie that night because he brought over one he’d been wanting to watch and thought I might like… yeah right – just more controlling behavior…
And to say he ultimately brought me to my knees when he unexpectedly broke off our relationship with no warning was an understatement… and little did I know that he would continue playing cat and mouse with me for the next several months in various capacities and stringing me along with his flirtations, with me waiting to see when he would cross the line to sleep with me again… now I know the answer to that Q: *never* if *I* kept waiting and watching for him to make a move, and within 5 minutes, LOL, if I would’ve sent the message that he was invisible to me, cuz we all know that when I ultimately did cut him off from my life in any capacity and ignored him publicly, it resulted in all hell breaking loose with his false police charges against me…
Loved the responses to the glued penis story, too! Henry, I laughed/snorted when I read yours about the mug shot picture… went back to look & you are so right! LMAO!
Have a great day, everyone – ’til next time
HP
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Hecates path says:
Good gracious I am an embarrassment to english teachers everywhere, and my highschool typing teacher, LOL, with ALL those typos in my last post.
Ummm, I guess that’s what that preview button should be used for!!! APOLOGIES!
I think you’re all intelligent enough to figure them out so I won’t insult you with corrections other than to correct the verb tense of “was an undertstatement” to “is/would be an understatement”
Thanks for putting up with me… (said with a most sheepish grin)
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blueskies says:
witsend, Kim and Gem, HP. Thanks for your replies guys.xxx Much love. xxx I just needed to get it out, somewhere!x
Witsend you really made a difference in shifting my thought gear today:)x and I love the jokes Gem and Kim!:Dx. I am better now, just needed a little hand hold! (Sheesh when will this end?!) Now I will get back to reading instead of needing(yukko);)xxxx
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geminigirl says:
Dearest Blueskies,Im glad you liked the blonde joke! You do NOT need a boink on the haead ,you need a group CYBER HUG!! Altogether now, GROUP CYBER HUG to Blueskies!! Dont beat yourself up dear blue, weve all been there, done that got the T shirts to prove it!LOL!
{{{{HUGS!!!}}}} times one hundred squared! Gem.XX
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skylar says:
Everyone, those jokes were good medicine. thanks
Blueskies, I cried for hours last night and felt better today. Usually, I avoid crying because it puffs up my eyes for 2 days, I look like death. But for some reason, it may have helped my attitude a small bit.
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henry says:
Joke – An old woman goes to store and buys crotchless panties. When husband comes home she is sitting on bed legs apart, she ask him “Honey you want some of this?” Husband say’s ” Hell no! look what it did too your panties!”
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Janey says:
Dear Blueskies,
Sorry to hear your feeling down. This road to healing is the loneliest & scariest road we’l ever walk but no matter how lonely or afraid I get I will never turn back.
Ive always found that at my most terrifying times I am all alone. No-one “gets it” or understands. I have often sunk to the floor in utter despair & in indescribable pain clutching my cell phone & scrolling through contacts wondering who to call.
Then realizing “whats the point”? “They wont understand”!
Its during those times when I thought I had no-one that I prayed to God, I now believe those times of alone-ness with
God is beneficial to my healing. After every emotional breakdown (and there are many) I feel a sense of peace & renewed strength.
Know your never really alone Blueskies, God is always with you, carrying you a few more miles nearer to the end of our long lonely road to recovery.
You are worth every step you take, every painful step is a step further away from your abusers & a step nearer to your true value & worth.
I found the following on the net, it will explain what I am trying to say better than I can Blueskies. Hope it helps cheer your day. xxx
Value
A well known speaker started off his seminar by holding up a $20 bill. In the room of 200, he asked, “Who would like this $20 bill?”
Hands started going up.
He said, “I am going to give this $20 to one of you but first, let me do this.” He proceeded to crumple the dollar bill up.
He then asked, “Who still wants it?”
Still the hands were up in the air.
“Well,” he replied, “What if I do this?” And he dropped it on the ground and started to grind it into the floor with his shoe
.
He picked it up, now all crumpled and dirty. “Now who still wants it?” Still the hands went into the air.
“My friends, you have all learned a very valuable lesson. No matter what I did to the money, you still wanted it because it did not decrease in value. It was still worth $20.
Many times in our lives, we are dropped, crumpled, and ground into the dirt by the decisions we make and the circumstances that come our way.
We feel as though we are worthless. But no matter what has happened or what will happen, you will never lose your value. You are special – Don’t ever forget it!
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DancingWarrior says:
Dear Liane,
TO your qeustions, “Is there anyone who still has trouble accepting that partner abusers are sociopaths?”
I don’t totally get it.
“Sociopath” and “psychopath” are harsh labels–Sleeping with the Enemy or Hannibal come to mind. When I think of my husband, who brought a rocking chair so I can nurse our daughter more comfortably, or who ran out to buy a word processor so I can type papers for grad school–I DO have trouble labeling him a sociopath.
Yes, I see that he displayed abusive behaviors and this led me to separate from him. But I still have a hard time accepting that he is a sociopath. (Which makes my decision to divorce so hard).
Thank you.
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LouiseGolem says:
This is really a wonderful article, and really addresses where I’m at right now, at least. And Dancing Warrior, but I sympathize with you. Right now, I’m caught between the horror of my own coming to understand I was with an abuser (though I was never physically abused, just verbally – mentally and emotionally – things were escalating over the summer to a point where I feared he would physically abuse me, or hurt me quite severely ) and struggling with understanding how this man could also be so kind. Just today I was pulling out all my cold weather stuff, and came across the seat heater he bought me for my car, and the electric throw blanket he bought me to keep me warm when he wasn’t around. There was something oh so sweet in him, too. It’s baffling sometimes, and all I want to do is cry. . . .Is he a sociopath? There was one day I think he even went so far as to call himself a psychopath. And I didn’t want to hear it.
thanks for a great post
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OxDrover says:
Dancing Warrior,
Let me tell you about my son, he really is a great guy, he is very bright and charming, and he used to help me treat sick animals and would bring home stray dogs and take care of them, and you know he is SUCH a good guy, when he is not killing people (He is in prison for murder)
Warrior, even psychopaths are not “mean” all the time 24/7 sometimes they pretend to be nice guys, just like my son does, but while he was being “nice to me” the last time I saw him, he was at that very moment, plotting to KILL ME.
I realize this is a pretty out there thing, but NO ONE is “nice” all the time and no one is “mean” all the time, but what a person;’s character is determined by whether or not they realize or care how badly they hurt others. Or if they can truly repent and CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.
If your husband is abusive to you, it does not matter if he qualifies for psychopath or any other word passed “jerk”—does that mean you should stay with anyone who will not accept responsibility fo rhis bad behavior or even realisticly try to change?
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sotired says:
HeCates Path Said:
And to say he ultimately brought me to my knees when he unexpectedly broke off our relationship with no warning was an understatement… and little did I know that he would continue playing cat and mouse with me for the next several months in various capacities and stringing me along with his flirtations, with me waiting to see when he would cross the line to sleep with me again… now I know the answer to that Q: *never* if *I* kept waiting and watching for him to make a move, and within 5 minutes, LOL, if I would’ve sent the message that he was invisible to me, cuz we all know that when I ultimately did cut him off from my life in any capacity and ignored him publicly, it resulted in all hell breaking loose with his false police charges against me…
MYSELF, Sotired ———
At no contact for 5 weeks, the longest we haven’t talked or seen each other in 8 years I am feeling creepy like any time the next shoe will drop.
Last we spoke he wasn’t playing cat/mouse with me so much, but, he is still what he is. He didn’t call back when he said he would and that to me says if he cared he would have. I was undergoing medical testing for cancer and he didn’t follow up.
Now, I feel sad pity and getting to a peaceful place in my journey of healing and I’m scared of *what?* Peace!?! Fear is ruling again and I have to deal with it again I guess and nothing else has happened. (PTSD? yes I guess so.)
One of, just one of his questions I now see in hindsight was, “do you like rollercoasters?” and I honestly answered yes. HOW revealing is THaT?????
Again today I’m so glad to have this place to go when I need to and not dialing any more unbelieving friends or friends that want to scream how stupid could I be.
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sotired says:
sotired says:
Just to make myself clear I don not have cancer. Sorry I didn’t make that clear but didn’t want any one to think otherwise.
Thanks and goodnight.
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Tuesday, 8 December 2009 @ 12:00am
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Okay , this should have been on another post. Obviously I am sotired.
Should have been on THIS post. Sorry.
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ErinBrock says:
Sotired:
So glad your NOT in the C club! It’s a sucky club to belong to and one none of us join willingly!
BUT……S’s sure don’t give a shit about Cancer or anything else……
The S was a horrid mess to me during my battle……also to his father……who wasn;t as lucky as me….
He took all his fights to the family during his fathers battle….it was all about HIM…..always is! the last time he saw his father….he went to the hospital sat with him, and then called me….to schmooze me……up……I nailed him, because at this point…..WTF was I to do…..He wanted ME to find a specialist for his father…..he sat next to his dad and unloaded what a bitch i was etc…blah, blah…..THIS MAN WAS DYING…..and all he could do was talk about himself or HIS marital problems…..from there he went to his mothers home, who was devastated with her husbands illness and the S started total shit with her and his aunt……she asked him to leave her home……….
This was about 1.5 years ago…….father passed, S refused to show up at funeral…..so he could draw attention to himself AGAIN……They just hate anyone else getting attention……dead or alive!!!!
He exploited me during my illness…….same sort of shit…..but did it under my nose in my community…..when one sort of attention bored him, he turned up the heat….turned it into I was dying…..then I faked it…..WTF????
NO NORMAL PERSON would EVER exploit concern for a ‘loved one’.
Cancer was the best gift I ever ‘didnt’ want’……
I’m cancer free…..walking, talking, fighting, and raising awareness…..and I am FREE……
It’s mind boggeling how they are so callouse. Don’t expect anything less from them!!!!
Congrats on your 5 weeks…..by now you should be feeling the empowerment of “I can do this’…..and also noticing the power you have over him by going NC!
NC is a wonderful choice!!!!!
Congrats again!!!!
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henry says:
who pulled up this old thread? I can’t believe I told that joke here..
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sotired says:
ErinBrock,
Sorry to hear your battle but if we’re here at LB we’ve had one. It’s so difficult tio believe like you said “it was all about HIM.” Glad to hear you are cancer free too. NC is good and finally I do feel the empowerment. Hoping the empowerment will stay around, I’m NEVER going back to a relationship with these traits in it. I know I could relapse because I do believe I had/have an addiction to these personalities so by working on me maybe I will stay healthier.
henry,
I pulled it up and ummm…… hope you are doing good today and have found many of your posts helpful.
gotta run, never have enough time to stay here very long and then I lose my spot
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DancingWarrior says:
OxDrover,
Haven’t seen your reply here until now. Thank you for telling me about your son.
My husband says he KNOWS that his actions have hurt me, says he is SORRY that he’s hurt be, he admits that I couldn’t have helped fix marriage because he wouldn’t HEAR me years ago and wouldn’t LET me. Sounds good.
But when I tell him that the old behaviors may have different packaging today, but the core issue is still here, and I list the past behaviors “punching holes in walls, kicking file cabinets, breaking down door jambs” he gets angry and says it’s in the past, or justifies himself that he did this BECAUSE he was afraid I’d blind the baby by exposing the crib to sunlight, or BECAUSE I said I’d jump off the bridge with the baby (which I never said and it’s totally out of character for me to say). So then, the above apologies seem totally phoney because since I separated from him and brought up these violent behaviors, he has looked for a rationalization.
I have such a hard time getting over “magical thinking” about his good side, being smart, loyal, funny, devoted, reliable. I FORGET the inexcusable behaviors that have made me alone, hurt, unhappy.
I am having a real hard time letting go of him, and taking care of myself.
DW
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OxDrover says:
Dear DW,
That’s the thing, they create their own “reality” which is NOT real at all, but their excuses, their lies to make you crazy, this is called “gaslighting” and that’s what it means, it is from and old movie where a guy tried to convince his wife she was crazy.
This gaslighting thing is just that, it is their twisting of reality. Saying you said or did something that is not true, acting like they believe it.
Read steve’s lastest article about a “defense mechanisim”–the thing is that the PAST IS BEING REPEATED NOW, so the past IS IMPORTANT because he wants to focus on ONE item and not on the WHOLE PICTURE.
That’s what I was doing with my son C, who is NOT a psychopath like my other son, but unfortunately, was not acting responsibly and I kept focusing on the “now” and ignoring the REPEATED PATTERN. I asked him to leave my house and he can fend for himself. I am only responsible for raising him once, but for continuing to do it. He is 40 years old, time to grow up, guy. It breaks my heart, he has many good qualities, and not everyone who acts irresponsibaly is psychopathic but if it is a question of LIES OR TRUTH, vote for believing the trust, believing what you SEE not what excuses they give! It is difficult because we WANT to believe the best about those we love. But the thing is if someone keeps on repeating the same behavior over and over and doesn’t take responsibility for his/her actions they are not going to.
‘
They are toxic and don’t do you any good at all. You can’t fix him, and he won’t fix himself.
Good luck, sweetie, be strong. You are. I just fell apart for 48 hours this week, but I am working on getting back to where I was, peaceful, chaos-free life and my home is a LIE-FREE ZONE. No liars allowed. You are my son/friend/mother/lover etc. and you LIE, well now you are a GONE SOB! BYE!
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Genevieve79 says:
Lets not get the genuine mental illnesses (based on an imblance in brain chemistry) confused with personality disorders, based on behaviour.
Biploar is classed as a brain chemistry imbalance, a ‘true’ mental illness, as is schizophrenia, depression, anxiety etc. The person with it has little control over it until a successful medication treatment is found. Behavioural change comes into play certainly (from habits developed druing non treatment) but the most initial improvement comes from medication. Most people with genuine ‘classic’ mental illnesses turn on themselves before on others and have an overdelveloped sense of guilt.
The personality disorders on the other hand – antisocial, borderline, histrionic etc – are all behaviourally based and can be very much in the control of the person experiencing it. The most successful treatment is focused more on behaviour than medication, though some medication can play a part. Those with personality disordered tend to lash out and blame everybody else.
This is the difference and i feel we have to be careful not to unwittingly insult those suffering against their will with brains that do not work properly to put them in the same category as those who are so self centred they have chose to opt out of society and flout every decency rule there is.
I just feel we need to be really clear on this. Nine times out of ten the personality disordered individual knows exactly what they are doing and has chosen this way of life very early on in their development in response to their early environment. I’d even go so far as to say that some are that way before they are born lol, if you believe in that sort of thing!
The genuinely mentally ill individual can’t help their behaviour and deep down (some hide it very well though pride) feels genuine distress, embarrassment and empathy for those around them upon whom they are a burden.
Conversely the personality disordered individual, right from the tiniest hint of borderline up to the most callous psychopath couldn’t give a crap.
I know because I have worked in mental health before and also I have suffered with chronic depresson for many years. Believe me it is like looking at myself from the outside when I have a bad day because it isn’t ‘me’ it’s my crazy brain chemistry! It’s a physical problem treated well with medication, I’m probably producng too much or too little of a neurochemical or two, and I feel deep distress for the burden I am on my loved ones and friends when I have a bad day and can’t take part in normal life with them.
Personality disorders? The problem is not their brain, it is ‘them’!! It is who they are, who they have allowed themselves to become and only they can change it.
It’s amazing how many personality disordered individuals fool doctors and society into putting them into the same category as those of us with genuine mental illnesses. I have a family member like that – bltatantly personality disordered, every antiscoical trait in the DSM IV and yet her psychiatrist suspects she is schizophrenic! Nooooooo!!! I feel like yelling, She’s a Sociopath!! It’s obvious!! They are not the stuff of Hollywood!! Wakey wakey!!!
My reality check for sociopaths is this – my IQ has been tested as being in the top 2%/2.5% of population. Sociopaths are thought to make up as much as 4% of the population right? So get this – you have double the chance of meeting one of them as you have of meeting me, for every one of me there is roughly two of them. And I’m sitting here typing to you right now…you’ve ‘met’ me right?
Go figure hehe!!!! Sobering thought huh! =D
Genevieve xxx
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Genevieve79 says:
Yes Pinow I think the difference between one end of the personality disorder spectrum and the worst end is the level of callousness they’re capable of. It goes up the closer to APD you go in my view =) xx
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