The Narcissiopath
PDF What do you call someone you’ve been describing alternately as a narcissist and sociopath? Someone for whom neither diagnosis alone quite suffices as a complete description of the individual, but rather in whom both disorders seem as if wrapped up in one menacing individual?
Pardoning my grandiosity for daring to expand the already crowded psychiatric nomeclature, I propose to call these hybrid personalities“narcissiopaths.”
While I don’t expect the DSM folks to take me very seriously (or anyone else for that matter), I’m thinking (unfacetiously) that there’s a case to be made here.
The narcissiopath, as I envision him (using “him” for convenience’s sake) will meet many of the essential criteria for both narcissistic and sociopathic personality. The closest extant clinical description of this disordered individual that comes to mind is the confusing term “maligant narcissist.”
Now personally, I find the term “malignant narcissist” wanting: for instance, precisely at what point does a narcissist turn “malignant?” And doesn’t this imply the concept of non-malignant narcissists who, by definition, must be “benign?” (I’m not so sure their partners would attest to their harmlessness?)
My concept, the narcissiopath, suggests very directly the personality fusion of narcissism and sociopathy in this particular personality. The narcissiopath is the individual who effectively conflates narcissism and sociopathy.
Let me briefly review these separate personalities—the narcissist and sociopath—in their more classical presentations. The narcissist is fundamentally a recognition-craver, a reassurance-craver, a convenience-craver, and an inordinate craver and demander of attention, catering and special status. He is in many respects insatiably needy emotionally.
At root, the narcissist is an overly entitled personality. He feels entitled to be accomodated on a pretty much continual basis. This begs the question, on what basis does he accord himself this right—to expect, that is, the continual accomodation of his needs and desires? The answer is, on the basis of his sense of himself as “special,” and his expectation that others—indeed, the world—will also recognize him as special.
Psychologically, a compensatory process often occurs with the narcissist. His “sensed” and “imposed” specialness is often a compensation for underlying and threatening self-vulnerability; and compensation for doubts about his power, worth and attractiveness—doubts that he is too immature to face squarely and maturely.
Although exploitation is not typically the narcissist’s primary motive, we recognize his capacity to be manipulative, cruel, deceptive and abusive; yet his darker machinations are usually secondary to his demanding, and sometimes desperate, pursuit of others’ attention and cooperation.
The narcissist is imfamously inept at managing his disappointment. He feels that he should never be disappointed, that others owe him protection from disappointment. When disappointed, he will find someone to blame, and will quickly de-idealize and devalue his disappointer.
Devaluing his disappointer now enables him to abuse her or him with more righteous indignation and less guilt.
For the sociopath, this is all much easier. Unlike the narcissist, he doesn’t have to perform mental gymnastics to subdue his guilt in order to exploit others with an unburdened conscience. The sociopath has no guilt to manage.
But the sociopath’s dead conscience isn’t per se what makes him sociopathic. Many people have weak consciences who aren’t sociopaths. It is his dead conscience in conjunction with his orientation to exploit that gets to the heart (really, heartlessness) of the sociopath.
The sociopath is variously a manipulator, liar, deceiver and violator of others; and he is these things less to regulate his unstable self-esteem than, more often than not, to enjoy himself, amuse himself, entertain himself, and take what he feels like taking in a way he finds optimally satisfying.
The sociopath, as I have discussed previously, is an audacious exploiter. His lack of shame supports his imperturbability, which enhances the experience of his audacity. The sociopath leaves one shaking one’s head at his nerve, his gall. One imagines that to venture the deception and outrages the sociopath pursues with his famous, blithe composure, he must possess a chilling callousness and coldness beneath what may otherwise be his veneer of “normality.” One imagines correctly.
Now sometimes we find ourselves dealing, as I’ve suggested, with individuals who seem, at once, to be both narcissist and sociopath, as if straddling, or embodying both disorders.
These are the individuals I’m proposing to call narcissiopaths.
For a good celebrity example of this, consider O.J. Simpson. Simpson, as his story evolved, was someone you found yourself confusingly calling a narcissistic personality disorder (probably correctly) in one conversation, and in the very next, a sociopath (probably correctly).
You found yourself vacillating between the two diagnoses because he seemed to fulfill important criteria of both. There was O.J. the narcissist: publicly charming, charismatic, disarmingly engaging and seductively likeable while privately, behind closed doors, he was tyrannizing Nicole Brown whenever he felt his “omnipotent control” threatened.
Simpson came to epitomize the indulged athlete: catered to all his life for his special athletic gifts, somewhere along the line he came to believe, with ultimately violent conviction, in his right to control and be heeded, not defied.
Simpson was all about “looking good,” about public show; in Nicole Brown he’d found a woman—a “trophy wife”—who could “reflect well” on him publicly, and on his “greatness.” She was also, tragically, the “perfect” choice to engage his narcissistic compulsion to alternately idealize, and then devalue, her; that is, to idealize the perfect, and then devalue the perfectly dirty, sex object.
In other words, in choosing her, Simpson chose well for his narcissism.
In the end, Simpson was as charming, ingratiating, and as shallow and superficial as so many narcissists (and all sociopaths) are.
But he was more than that. He was also callous, and brutally violent. He descended upon Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman like the knife-wielding devil he was, nearly carving Brown’s head off and massacring Goldman.
And then…he lied.
He maintained his innocence with outrageous brazenness, determined to win the next stage of yet another game. And where was the remorse? There was none; just his arrogant, insulting contempt.
Simpson had executed a miraculous performance. He had escaped from double-murder and the incontrovertible evidence of his guilt as improbably, as impossibly, as he’d so often escaped (brilliantly) opposing defenses and game-plans geared to stop him.
Finally, although I’d say that Simpson probably tilts, on balance, more to a narcissistic personality structure than not, he also possesses many of the most dangerous and essential diagnostic features of the sociopath. He seems, in other words, to be not entirely one or the other, but both narcissist and sociopath all in one.
I intend to flesh out the concept of the narcissiopath in future posts. And I look forward, as always, to your feedback.
(This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
ErinBrockovich says:
Hi Peeps……
I just had a very enlightening conversation with a wise friend.
I wanted to share it with you.
She is aware of my situation and knew the ex S.
She asked me if I had my house painted. I told her I hadn’t, that the S had it done 2 years ago…..I laughed at the notion, since we had the kitchen demolished and at a standstill for 8 months, yet he was having the exterior painted!!!!! I said ….how crazy was that….we didn’t have a kitchen, but we had a new paint job (of which didn’t need to be done, easily could have waited a year or two)…..OH NO….he insisted and Brought the painters over. Even the painters thought it was kinda weird when they entered the house and saw the demolished kitchen with not even a subfloor!
Anyways…my friend made a point that the ‘shell’ must appear in order…and of course he would have the outside taken care of…..no one could see the inside. That didn’t offer him ‘kudos’ or a stroke up……he wanted folks to see him working in HIS yard with HIS fresh paint and give him a thumbs up.
What I did, no one appreciated……especially not him! No one knew what the interior looked like, UNLESS they came inside…..and he certainly kept people at bay and OUTSIDE!
As I ponder this thought….it proved to be absolutely correct in her observaton.
I advanced my own thoughts………I wonder if this is another ‘tool’ to observe, in our suspicians in looking at S’s or cluter B’s.
I started recalling all the ‘suspected’ S’s in my life and the ‘apperances’ they portray…..whether it be the car, exterior of the homes, dress and appearances, ‘titles’ etc….
They all fit this description.
I think back about what the ex S had said when we purchased our last home several years ago…..it is located on a corner lot, at the entrance of a subdivision…..high profile positioning indeed……he said to me….Okay, I will be in charge of the outside, you take care of the inside. I was ameable to this, as gardening wasn’t my thing…..and it sounded 50/50, a rare opportunity for me.
He was always so enthralled when he would get people commenting on ‘his’ yard…..I would go out to offer my help, so we may be able to spend some time together, I was told to pick weeds, then ‘fired’ for now doing it the ‘right way’…..and he always told me to go away and belittled me. He wanted complete control of the outside. He would always come in the house and say “oh, so and so stopped by and said I have the nicest yard in the city”…..it was always about the ‘best’….
Now that this house is ALL MINE……I look at how I maintain it…..I maintain the inside and outside, do what I can out there….but never look at cars driving by and flag them down for ‘input’…..The yard still looks the same to me.
The garage is cleaner, got rid of all his shit, the mess he stored and filled up the house with, his pack ratting tendencies…but, no one saw the garage and all his shit inside! No one he gave a damn about impressing…..
My friend pointed out that ofcourse he would have the exterior ‘freshened’ up, it made him look good to the passer byes…it didn’t matter what condition of the interior was, no one saw this as they drove by….they only imagined it was as pristine as the exterior……..
THIS IS THE STORY OF HIS LIFE!!!!
Then……I also looked at my tenent in my rental house, I am having troule with him…..and it also applied…..the first thing he said was he wanted to paint the exterior and he planted flowers and shrubs….all at his expense….he ‘duded’ up the porch with leave it to beaver rocking chairs and made a nice appearance, he also BTW….drives a 2009 BMW something or anohter……BUT….he hasn’t paid me rent since he moved in!!!!!
HE also will NOT let me inside to view the condition of my property…….hmmmmmmm, why is this????? BECAUSE HE’S ALL A FACADE~! An act, a portrayal…….Familiar traits indeed!!!!
HE was greatly disturbed by the fact I had the Police post eviction notices on his door…….he emailed me TELLING me, he didn’t want the neighbors thinking anything odd and demanded for me to remove all notices, as he was out of town…….Oh yeah, okay….why, because YOU think your in control?????? NOT!!!!!
I follow the law….and your COOKED! Na, Na , NA….GOOOOODDDD BYYYYYE!
I will expose your ‘flowery and freshly painted’ exterior to everyone! BUG YOU……then MOVE!
I go to court tomorrow for eviction…..he is playing games, not coming back to the house, and I know he will say at some point he wasn’t served…..in my state this is legal service. He is not allowing me access to my property for inspection, (against the law)…so I will just let the judge know what is going on!
I will Take my DOCUMENTATION that I learned from the first S and expose him! I’m keeping my ‘inner Sociopath’ close for this one! Honing up my learned skills. Fighting fire with fire! Going EB on him!!!
I would be interested in knowing if any of the LF community can relate to the home exterior portrayal? I know about the ‘empty suits’ but, how about the home?
I have my suspicions, if we collet our thoughts, we all lived in ‘beautiful’ exteriors huh?
This may be something I add to my list, when I have a gut feeling…..I want to know how the exterior of that persons home ‘appears’. Easy enough to do a ‘driveby’ and check it out.
See how they live on the ‘outside’….
Of course, not everyone with pretty flowers and well manicured homes are Cluster B’s……..But…..this could be used as another unofficial tool as an alert or confirmation of suspected behaviors.
Maybe when/if I date again, I will look for a mate living like Sanford and sons!!!
Any thoughts on this idea???
(Report abusive comment)
MariaLisa says:
hi erin
can we relate to the hoe exterior story?
well not in the same sense. yours may use a shiny outside to get his supply of compliments, but these horrible men come ins so many disguises!!!!
so yes and no.
yes: mine always wanted people to see and hear about his ‘ things’, when there was anything cool he had ( he loved little possessions, on whichever level he liked). he was rarely if ever interested in anybody else’s, unless he could use the knwowledge of itto his advantage or something like that.
no: my ex was an artist ( unfortunately one that is becoming a bit succesful, not because what he does is good at all, but he knows how to manipulate people like no other), so they have different ways of seeming interesting. he did love to use his faith and spiritual path to wow others. he never respected people who were amazed by him, he needed it than got bored and needed something. i was never amazed by him in ways others were, its why i guess i was interesting to him for quite long. however i became very critical of his work and behavior and he got very angry about this, telling me he didnt need my opinion and that we werent getting along because of MY controlling behavior. thats ridiculous but it worked: i became insecure and started to be confused. that bored him and things spiralled down from there. it was HORRIBLE. i just woke up from yet another night of pain feeling back how I was betrayed ( he cheated on me in an HORRENDOUS manner also, to top all of his manipulation). it hurts so darned much….
but yes: its alllll about the exterior, why? cause its allllll about getting an audience and new input allll the time…
liked your story, gee, why did we ever fall for them eh?
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ErinBrockovich says:
MariaLisa:
Never got a chance to welcome you….I have been incognito for a bit, but still lurking…..life happening. SO WELCOME!
Yes….one thing I have learned, is we must feel the pain, go through it, embrace it……we process through our dreams also, so keep a journal of them. They are very telling! It’s amazing to go back and read about them later down the road.
I, like others will offer you this….it does get better….WE evolve, we learn, we grow……BUT….it takes time. Embrace the tears, embrace the pain, we have a natural tendancy to ‘run’ from pain…….I’m telling ya….it’ll find ya every time!!!!
Know that life is teaching you something, if you don’t get it, it will hand you the same lesson at a different time!
Like my tenent……I had to step up/out of myself and catch it….see what life is teaching me through these lessons.
YES THEY SUCK! BUT they are also a gift.
I like ‘who’ I have become…..who I have grown into.
I don’t know how far you have read back….and if you know my (like everyones) convoluted story……but we all have one, mine is no more important/different than anyone elses…….we just need to learn and grow. This is when life changes, opportunity’s exist, love awaits, job’s appear, families unite, friends come together…….Things fall into place.
Really, it does get better.
I can relate to your ‘boredom’ statement……for sure!
Funny enough…..since it’s all about ME
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MariaLisa says:
Hi Erin,
Thanks for teh welcome, nice to ‘meet’ you!
I love how you say the lessonw ill come back until you get it. That is a good motivation to let it soak through! And its true!
I just came brack from my psychologist and we have definitely figured out I have a pattern for falling for emotionally unreachable men, cause thats what I was used to growing up. Only my psychopathic ex wasnt unreachable emotionally, there wasnt anything to reach for!! I didnt knew it existed but reading this blog for a while made me see SO many similarities and patterns its insane and clarifying at the same time. The extent to which they are inhumane is really why we are all on this blog. The extent!!! Its so hurtful and damaging. I have lost people, know physical pain etc but the emotional pain and craziness someone can put you through is something I am still not sure about how it is possible.
Thank you for sharing your message of hope and realness ( relation to facing the pain). I get really excited about that, i wonder whether only the real smart women are on this site, so much wisdom!!
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ErinBrockovich says:
All of us are BRILLIANT……we are survivors, we are real and we are going after what we want our lives to become!
Yes, we all landed here searching for answers…….and we are finding them through connection with others in our similar postions.
It’s great that your in therapy…..it’s great that your figuring out about yourself….your contribution to your ‘downfalls’……It’s so important, such a great step for healing and health!
Keep opening up……keep moving forward…….don’t beat yourself up……it’s a process……steer your life int he direction you wish it to go and ‘destiny’ will offer help too.
Yes, none of em have emotions…..they have portrayals! We belive in them and they take us for it…..same story, different partner…..it’s the way it works with them!
BUT…..your doing great…….it takes time girl!
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Vision says:
I haven’t commented for a while now…..the ongoing fight for my freedom…..
Loved the comments above…..
ErinBrockovich: Yes survivors and real….I wrote a poem this morning….not mourning….or am I?
Poem:
Emptiness now surrounds me
The vastness can’t compare
No surprises, no words, and yet, no fear
Can it be so, this space, this void was always here?
and all this time when I thought you close
You where never really here?
Emptiness now embraces me
It seems to wrap me in it’s shroud
Perhaps to let me know it’s safe
It’s okay to cry out loud
But preference begets me
I save my precious tears
And wonder where I was this time
A stranger, a wanderer, in a world of a heartless soul
And somehow, I am free and I am real
Rising up from this hollow hole
Emptiness extends her hand, I plunge
Escaping from a prison of fears…….
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MariaLisa says:
I think what I was looking for was a really deep connection ( dont know if i was maybe looking for something impossible, or maybe it was not a connection but self love i dont know, this is truly an area i have not figured out) and those psychopaths and certainly my ex was very good at penetrating my soul. it wasnt a connection however…Now I have to redefine what i wanted/needed SO bad, that I would let myself be abused for it….
?
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ErinBrockovich says:
Vision…..WOW…..beautiful and heartfelt poetry!!!! What a way to heal. I admire your courage to place it on paper. That was just beautiful, something we can all connect with.
Mourning….well of course…..it’s part of the deal.
It’s just wonderful the last line…..
Escaping from a prison of fears…….THAT IS FREEDOM!!!!!!
THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH FOR SHARING THAT!!!!!
MariaLisa: It all comes in time…..one day, like a ‘math problem’ in elementary school…..it’s all the ‘ah ha’ moments that we can take……..funny enough, with allowing the healing and thinking in the manner you are…..some of the ‘answers’ will come in your dreams…….You are aware, you are present, you will find your way, you will have a life you desire!!! Keep faith!
We all are redefining what it is in US that brought us to this place we are at today! You sound like your on a really good path of healing….stick with it and keep your faith!!!!
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Aeylah says:
ErinBrokovich,
regarding yor post on the exterior of the house….I totally get it, BUT when you said “Maybe when/if I date again, I will look for a mate living like Sanford and sons!!!”…the hair in the back of my neck whent up because that described my ex S to a tee!
When I first went out to his house…..which is out in the woods…..His house was a disaster on the outside, but clean, tidy and organized on the enside! nothing like his personality…..I took pitty on him and decided what he needed was a good woman …one like me with a background in architecture and landscape design to help him clean up his place….and boy did I! only to be used and abused, be cheated on when he brought other women out there to show off “his handy work” and kicked to the curb when it was all done!
this man, is one of the most stelthy of narcciopaths I have ever heard or encountered, differs from others because he does have money, plenty of it…but is cheap to the bone and will use it in reverse to manipulate, extort and get his needs met. A different kind of animal from what others here have experienced here.
So beware of the “sanford and son” apperances!
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ErinBrockovich says:
Oh Yikes……theory demolished!
Thanks for the feedback.
I guess there is just no clear cut way to recognize them huh?
Just keep awareness and on the lookout for red flags…..and DO NOT IGNORE THEM!!!!!! (ther red flags of course)
Yeah, mine was cheap too…..had money, lot’s more than I ever imagined, hid over a mil from me…..in cash!!!!! Never was he a nice gift giver, more of a re-gifter…..used crap! would always bitch about going anywhere, wouldn’t travel with us, just a cheap soab! It’s makes me laugh to think he’s in an affluant community now…..dating…..oh, how expensive it will be to take ‘care’ of anohter woman that would meet his standards!!!!
the thought cracks me up!!!!!!
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Escapee says:
Aeylah
He sounds like a ‘honey’.
I was interested to read your post because the S I was unfortunate enough to get involved with was similar. However, he had OCD and everything had to be ‘perfect’ (sleeping with the enemy style almost).
But he was very good at getting other people to do his bidding/running around after the little emperor and he was also a master at conning people into paying for him/getting things done for free. He also had plenty of money but didn’t like parting with it if he could get stuff for free. However, he did like to make grand gestures in certain company and give the impression that he was ‘a great guy’. I don’t know if he outright lied about things to other people (I expect so) but he liked to ‘imply’ and ‘give the impression’ about certain things to do with wealth and money. ‘Ownership’ was very important to him and to be seen to have ‘ownership’ even more so – the house, the cars, the clothes, the 5* holidays. The holidays I had with him can be best described as ‘isloated torture’ – 5* that they may have been. We never engaged with anyone, spoke to anyone, visited any place (except once, and he complained the whole time). The whole purpose seemed to be to be ‘seen to be in a 5* hotel. At one particular hotel, he told me that only ‘common people’ went in the pool! Such was his sense of self-agrandiosement (is that a word? Well, it is now!). What a waste……… Talk about the sociopath and boredom! Imagine being bored with all that luxury to enjoy and not being allowed – that’s how I felt – it was so frustrating and pathetic – everything was just a ‘show’.
Can these people REALLY be enjoying their lives?
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ErinBrockovich says:
NO!~
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banana says:
Anewlily,
I know why I got involved with the P. I was leaving an abusive relationship with a man who would NOT got to church with me for 5 years. P liked church. Geez our son even has a biblical name…I don’t mean matt, mark, luke or john : )
I know it was my choice though and God as released me from bondage. Yes. I too am closer to God than ever.
I don’t think I need to pray for P. God knows all. No I don’t hate P. But 2 Peter explains that these people can not be saved. I feel awful imagining him in the darkest depths of hell for eternity.
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Escapee says:
Banana
I have been known to say here that I sometimes ‘envy’ (don’t like that word particularly and it’s not wholly apt but it’s the best I can find) people with faith. It must be such a great comfort, especially in the dark dark times.
However, I don’t ‘envy’ “you feeling awful imagining him in the darkest depths for eternity”. Most days, that’s what I wish on the ex-S that wrecked my life. Please don’t feel awful – it’s the path he chose – as you state “I know it was my choice” and you are brave enough to live with the consequences. I hate to think of you wasting your life on someone who has hurt you so badly and isn’t as brave as you.
All love.
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blueskies says:
Aelya:) Hi:) and Erin, i was amused(no sure that completely the right word) to read your post Aleya, the S/P i knew was always going on about his garden and what he was growing (I am a keen amature gardener and dabble in garden design as part of my creative practice) but when I saw it – what a dump!! unless he was trying to grow an old bicycle, dog poo, tin can and broken toy crop.But he made such a big deal about it…? My reaction? – oh to spend months researching and designing a garden including scale plans, project time plan and budget… NUMBSKULL! I never gave him the plans though, aaaaand I enjoyed doing it and now its part of my portfolio so no great loss, But yes(stop waffling and get on with it blue!) these creeps COME IN ALL FLAVOURS. He had compulsive behaviours, but cleanliness and neatness was not one!:)xx
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MariaLisa says:
Erin: thank you for your kind words.
About the money topic: they are GREEDY in every sense. They will send a dime on someone else only STRATEGICALLY, meaning it will have t be payed back and more. Other than that, they are so FRUGAL. My ex used to ofcourse balme everyobody aroundhim for being cheap, its because of that you almost forget to see how they themselves are so greedy. My ex used to talk about his exgirlfiend of multiple years ( and actually we had an overlap) that she was jewish and therefore cheap and that he was disgusted by it. WELL: i know her now, and she is wonderful and giving ( ocourse) and it was him who parasited off of her for years. She paid for so muchf or him and he took it for granted. When that ‘supply’ stops coming it is ofcourse the world that is mean to them. All I can say is that ‘ parasitic lifestyle’ is on the O’Hare checklist for a reason. Damn I have never met anyone as greedy as him and who fooled me so much that he wasnt. words/actions….
About the rotting in hell topic: I truly hope to God justice will at one point be done to these unhumane creatures, but i dont know. So far they all seem to just take and take in life without too much repentance. I wonder whether true punshment for these creatures is even possible. I personally dont wanna go there in my mind too much cause the idea of violence to another being ultimately hurts me too. So I simply try to bring those thoughts back to myself. BUT I have definitely had moments that I would see him burn in hell and no pleading or manipulation would help him. ABSOLUTELY. This was especially in moments where I felt I couldnt get a grip on my pain and to see him so utterly happy go lucky was just unbearable.
Am I making any sense?
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Aeylah says:
Hi again Erin, Bluesies, Escapee and all….
Yes, they do come in all “flavors”….they are chameleons and masters of deception and control. Money is used in all imaginable ways for their control, weather they have it or not. After I was finishished re-modeling his house and property, he threw a big birthday party for my 50th….It was supposed to be a surprise but I got manipulated into planning for it, paying for part of it and in the end he envited everyone he knew including ex-girlfriends, lovers, and future ones because it really wasnt about me….it was his “comming out” party, to show how wonderful his place was!…..oh an did I mentioned that 3 days after “my birthday party” he broke up with me?
only to try to woe me back again when he needed more “architectural advise” for one of his projects!
never again! good grief!
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Vision says:
Thanks Erin for the words of encouragement…..and the acknowledgment of my poem….I needed that….
While I am in a creative mood……
.Here is a song/video I wish to share:
By Chrisette Michele called Epiphany…..when you view the video, the ending is important….as she falls into waiting arms and I feel as if here on this site, we fall into the arms of our friends….
the lyrics express along with the melody, that this Epiphany has come or will soon come to us….and it WILL……as the lyrics express: “Just about over being your girlfriend”….leaving us all with the feel that we are just about over the whole dang thing and only need to make that last and final move into freedom……I play it when I feel stuck in the time warp……Hope you find it moving……
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3pC0hRyBK4
The Lyrics below:
And then it comes to me like an epiphany
Its over, over oh ooh (2x)
Second night in a row you didn’t come home
i’m watching my phone waiting for it to ring
Sitting on the couch with the TV on
All night all alone every time same old thing
Chorus
So i think i’m just about over being your girlfriend
(Girlfriend)
i’m leaving, i’m leaving
no i wonder what you’ve been doin
where you been sleeping
(it’s over)
I’m leaving, I’m leaving
So you walk in (So you walk in)
the next morning (the next morning)
to find me smiling like nothing ever happened
You give me some excuse (some excuse)
like you always do (like you always do)
I just kiss your cheek
and this is what i tell you (you, you)
Chorus
So i think im just about over being your girlfriend
(Girlfriend)
im leaving (im leaving) im leaving
no i wonder what you’ve been doin
where you been sleeping
(its over)
Im leaving, Im leaving
How many times did i fall for your lies
How many times did i fall down and cry
Never questioning why? why?
It just came to me
like an epiphany
How about if i just leave
Chorus
So i think im just about over being your girlfriend
(girlfriend)
im leaving, im leaving
no i wonder what you’ve been doin
where you been sleeping
(its over)
Im leaving
(its over)
Im leaving’
So i think im just about over being your girlfriend
no i wonder what you’ve been doin
where you been sleeping
(its over)
Im leaving
(its over)
Im leaving
Yeah yeah
_______________________
Thanks for listening……….I am into NC…….early stages……not over….but it WILL be……almost there……
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MariaLisa says:
vision
my heart aches again when i read that. i relive it again. trust me: i feel the same.
please please make sure you wont have contact. everytime you do it will make things harder and harder plus you will lose your self respect more and more. this is your chance to start with yourself all over again. its a long journey like everybody here acknowledges, bu HE doesnt deserve you procrastinating YOUR healing any longer. And you neither!!!
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Escapee says:
AEYLAH
Nasty greedy bastard! There I’ve said it! Sorry about the profanity but it makes my blood boil!
All the using, all the conning, all the manipulation, getting you to do things for them. I was constantly ‘furnishing’ the half human’s habitat with art, furnishings etc etc. You see – it was always going to be ‘our’ house. In the meantime, my own home was being neglected and I was getting deeper and deeper into debt which, of course, was all going to be the same ‘pot’ eventually when we were ‘together’ (married) .
Once he even had me ‘mail’ his ‘fishing’ suit (for a presentation dinner) to him – shoes, belt the lot (because he’d forgotten to pack it). He made this great big fuss about it being sent by special post to arrive at his hotel the next morning and when I’d been to his house, organised it all,l parcelled it up, mailed it and paid for it to boot, his response was that it needed to be there by 9.00am the next morning (the delivery was guaranteed by 11am) – once again, NOT GOOD ENOUGH for the little emperor. He later told me that hardly anyone had bothered to wear the All England Blazer etc. (and yes, he conveniently ‘forgot’ the extortionate postage bill that he owed me, as usual). I now wonder if it was just all an exercise to see how many hoops he could make me jump through – PRAT! AND, again the self-enchantment, the self-importance, the self-agrandiosement of the whole thing…….. Arrrggggghhhh!!! I could slap myself in the face for being such a stupid tart – he probably had a visit with one of his ‘back-burner’ women on the way home too! (this was his usual modus operandi).
How Narcissopathic was he?
They really to believe in their ‘ENTITLEMENT’ – it’s a very ugly thing – you wouldn’t catch me pandering to a ‘little napoleon’ again – and yes, he was a ‘little’ man – I really do think this syndrome exists among some small men. (sorry, this isn’t meant to offend any male posters – you note I say ‘some’).
We’re well out – I think we have to be more protective of our talents and favours in future.
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Escapee says:
Sorry folks
That was a bit of rant. Quite angry today.
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MariaLisa says:
escapee
NO PROBLEM. hell its infuriating!!!
i can pull my hair out when i think of all i have done for that selfish half human ( i like non human better actually). and the funny thing is i thought everything was ALL LOVE. with love you dont think about what you get but you want to give regardless right?
crazymaking. but no: love is making eachother happy. and it should be friggin manifested in SOMETHING. nope it wasnt now was it. just us hoping and hoping. and believing and believing. now its time for us to want more for ourselves and realise ANYTHING is better that ever being emotionally ( fist of all) invested in such creatures.
bloodboiling with you!
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OxDrover says:
DEar Banana,
There are MANY PASSAGES ABOUT PSYCHOPATHS and others who have no empathy or goodness in them.
I think we ARE to pray for them, and I think we must “forgive” them, BUT in my interpretation, “forgiveness” does not mean TRUST THEM AGAIN.
Read the story of Joseph where he was sold into slavery by his brothers. Years later, Joseph had FORGIVEN his brothers, but when they showed up he did NOT TRUST them, he TESTEd them to see what kind of men they had become, and it was ONLY after they showed that they would have given their very lives for his younger brother Benjamin to keep from hurting their father again, that Joseph revealed himself to them as their brother.
There is a BIG difference to ME in forgiveness and trust, they are NOT to me the same. Forgiveness to me is GETTING THE BITTERNESS out of my own heart, it is for ME, not for them.
I know others have different ways of looking at this word, but this is my own personal way and why.
I do NOT want to feel BITTER and angry about the past forever. I do NOT absolve the Ps for what they did, but I just don’t harbor and feed that bitterness that is the normal response to being betrayed.
Jesus advised us to “be angry and sin not.” If ANGER itself was a “sin” then Jesus would not have been sin free. He was ANGRY at INJUSTICE. He also siad “do not let the sun go down upon your wrath”
Wrath, I looked up in the dictionary, as I always thought it was just another word for anger, but it is not JUST ordiniary anger but the seething, vengeful,hateful, mean, nasty anger that we HARBOR….and God knows how many nights I layed awake harboring my WRATH against these folks, plotting what I would do if I could to get revenge on them. The bible also says “Vengence is mine, saith the Lord.” I donot feel that I have the right to do what is God’s duty and promise, and I do believe HE WILL AVENGE US…we may never know how or when, and it may never even be on this earth, but I believe He WILL.
I also believe that there are LESSONS we need to and can learn from all of this. “All things work together for GOOD TO those that Love the Lord.” I don’t always know why something happens, it may seem bad, but many times I can LOOKK BACK and see that if the “bad thing” had not happend, a later good thing would not have happened either.
I started out praying for my egg donor, though I admit I did not mean one single word of it—and I am sure God knew that as well, but over time, I came to mean it and the bulk of the anger, wrath and bitterness left my heart. It did ME good regardless of whether or not it did her any good. (I have seen no indication that it did).
Before all this I had a “religion” but little spirituality or connection with a heavenly father—it was mroe a long list of THOU SHALT NOT’S than a thou shalts, or of a phhilosophy or a feeling, just more a set of rules. Now, my realtionship with a heavenly father, a God, who loves me, cares about me and supports me is there….a relationship I never could have had without all this trauma, and without seeing what a faker my egg donoor is. she pretends to be so holy, just like the pharisees of Jesus’ time, “doing good works” but their hearts were evil. Their “good works” and “holiness” was only an OUTWARD DISPLAY, their hearts were dark and evil. HIPOCRITS!!! Jesus described them as “white tombs” all beautiful and pretty on the outside, but inside filled with ROTTING BONES. If that doesn’t describe psychopaths I never heard a description that does!
I have read the sacred writings of many religions and philosophies, and I ahve found benefit from many of them though my belief is Christian, but WISDOM is WISDOM where ever you find it. Putting it to use is what we need to do now, for our own sakes. ((((hugs)))) and prayers always.
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Escapee says:
Oxy
Like the distinction between anger and wrath – helps to reinforce what I need to work on for healing. The wrath IS dissipating but the anger comes back so strongly some days, I wonder if it will ever stop and just become that ‘indifference’ that I pray for (I pray to any god that’ll listen!). It might help me stop all the ‘plotting’ in my head too – more wasted energy.
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MariaLisa says:
about forgiveness: i read this great piece about it and i will paste it here for you. i must be honest and say i cannot remember where i copied it from, there is a GOOD chance it might be from the Lovefraud site! ( or maybe its from Eve Wood’s site, i cant remember!!!) Good stuff!!
Forgiving is a decision we make and then gradually follow through, adapting that decision to our own comfort level. It is a decision we make from a position of power over the one thing we truly have power over, our own choices. Especially that supreme choice of where we place our attention.
Forgiving is something we do, knowing that we cannot totally control fear, because our bodies have their own agendas and they will generate fear if they feel it is necessary. So it also involves a deal with our bodies that we will listen to their fear, that we will not become airy-fairy pseudo-Buddhists who try to stuff their fear because they think it’s unfashionable. But we make a deal with our bodies that it’s better for the entire organism if we manage our fear, reducing our investments in fear about things we already know about, and saving our big extravaganzas of fear and anxiety for the surprises.
Forgiving is about trust at two levels. First, trust that certain bad things will happen. We can look at this statistically, if we’re inclined. A certain fraction of people we meet will be destructive emotional cripples. A certain fraction of things we buy will turn out to be unusable junk. A certain number of conversations with our relatives will include uninvited comments about our choices, our characters or our weight. Trusting that these things will happen eliminates the surprise factor and enables us to plan around these statistical likelihoods.
Second, forgiving is also a kind of trophy we get for doing the work and coming out the other side of the trauma processing. In that sense, it is about renewed trust in ourselves and in the universe. What was once a huge deal is now fully digested and just a learning experience attached to some unpleasant memories. We are whole again and on generally good terms with the big intelligence that runs everything.
In all of this, you’ve probably noticed how little I’ve talked about the perpetrator. And I’m sure you understand why. Because this is really something between the various forms of intelligence in ourselves, and it is something between us and the big intelligence that runs everything.
But still we need to get down some practicalities too. So here is what forgiveness is NOT:
• It is not condoning or acceptance of anything we find hurtful, unethical, uncaring or anything else that is bad for us. (We may find ourselves releasing negative feelings about something, when we come to understand why it happened, but we don’t have to. This is not ultimately about them. It is whether we’re ready to move on.)
•It is not about compartmentalizing or denial. We are not “stuffing” it or pretending it never happened. We’re not trying to convince ourselves that we haven’t just been through a battle or deluding ourselves that we’re more powerful than we are. We are just gradually shifting our attention away from it, as we feel comfortable doing so. We are gradually reclaiming our interest in other things.
• It is not a reason for re-involving ourselves with people or situations that hurt us. We don’t forgive so we can jump into that pool again. The only reason we would do that is if we have evolved past the point of being hurt by what hurt us before (something that doesn’t often happen) or if the person or the situation has gone through some kind of cosmic surgery and is now something else. Remember, forgiving comes AFTER we have learned self-protection in the angry phase and let go of whatever got us into this situation. If we forgive because we want to do the same thing all over again … well, you don’t need me to tell you what you’re volunteering for.
• Likewise, it is not a social cure. If we’re forgiving because we’re embarrassed about being such a bore, or because our bad feelings are alienating our families, or because we want to get along better with people who just don’t get it, we victimizing ourselves all over again. We’re giving away our authority over our own feelings, and trying to force ourselves to feel something we don’t, in order to be accepted. If it’s really important that we not communicate the full force of the outrage or grief we’re dealing with – like in a work situation or in court — we can do that. We can selectively choose where, when and how much we share, while we continue to work through our trauma privately. The ability to do this — letting some people in and keeping others out — is good practice in developing the skills of conditional trust.
• There is no reason that we have to forgive people to their faces or even let them know about it. In fact, if we’re really ready to stop wasting energy, we probably won’t. We don’t just stop bothering with them in our heads; we stop bothering with them in real life. We avoid engagement. If we have to spend energy on some kind of mop-up or dealing with continuing drama from their side, we handle it with an eye toward ending all of it, because we want to be done with it.
Finally, forgiving is not an all-or-nothing thing. Nor is it a carved-in-stone solution. We don’t say, “Oh, I’ve decided it’s not worth caring anymore about what he (or she) did to me, and now I have to not care about the new thing he (or she) is doing to me.” It doesn’t work that way. Forgiving is a way of allocating our own resources. If new circumstances require us to grab a sword and slay a few dragons before dinner, then we do it. After we come home and shower, we can decide whether we’re ready to forgive the loss of our afternoon, or if we need to spend more time processing that little irritation.
And if we absolutely feel like we must announce our decision to forgive to the sociopath, here’s a suggested forgiveness note:
I’ve decided not to give you any more attention. I’m not going to track you down, hire a hit man or sue you for theft or mental suffering. I’ve dealt with my losses by myself. But don’t confuse this with weakness. The next time you show up, it won’t be such a pleasant or profitable experience for you. I also advise you to you grow up, for your own sake. Not everyone is as forgiving as me. As Henry the XV said to a murderous friend, “I pardon you, but I also pardon whoever kills you.”
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MariaLisa says:
i will hush now ( im taking up so much space here, i hope its of use to you guys), but i just wanna say how much i enjoy that last quote:
” I pardon you, but I also pardon whoever kills you”
Sheer beauty ( envision a naughty smile from me in a good moment as i post this to you).
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Escapee says:
ML
Thanks for reminding us of this one.
“Pardon whoever kills you” – I’d shake his hand, buy him a beer, write him into my will and kiss his feet……
Obviously, STILL fatigued, bitter and vengeful!
Ah…. all things pass….. eventually…….. LOL
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MariaLisa says:
escapee
you just produced a smile on my face
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Escapee says:
ML
Well, you know you’re on your way when you can smile again!
That’s the only reason I said it………. how sociopathic am I?
All love.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks for re-posting that MariaLisa. That was from my article on forgiving. It was probably one of the most controversial things I wrote here on LF, because forgiving is a subject that triggers a lot of people.
I’m glad you got something out of it.
Kathy
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MariaLisa says:
Oh Kathy, it was you! Sorry I didnt remember it was yours!! BUT its the only thing I copied from this site and put in my special document I keep wth inspirational texts PLUS I emailed it to my ex ex, the woman who is also trying to heal from the same psychopath as me. I thought it was extremely insightful and totally changed my perception on fogiveness.
Thank you for that!
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Kathleen Hawk says:
You’re welcome, MariaLisa!
If you have the time and money, I learned a lot from an online class in forgiveness. I think I mentioned it in the article, but you can find it at http://www.emindful.com. It’s a live class with the author of “Forgive for Good,” and it really changed a lot of my thinking.
They also have free mediation sessions there every day at 8 a.m. EST.
I would love it if, in the future, you are sharing my writing with other people, that you keep my name on it as the author. It might be a bit of viral marketing that helps when I get my book on healing published.
Kathy
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MariaLisa says:
Kathy:
thanks.
absolutely, will do!
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ANewLily says:
Oxy, thank you for mentioning the example of Joseph, “…Years later, Joseph had FORGIVEN his brothers, but when they showed up he did NOT TRUST them, he TESTEd them to see what kind of men they had become.”
I believe this is the exact same place I am now with my daughters, including DD#3, even after she has begun communicating with me for over a year. Forgiving them was easy, “they knew not what they were doing.” but trusting them? They are going to have to earn my trust.
I can be happy and full of joy that thngs seem to be changing, though. I think Joseph, too, felt joy upon recognizing his brothers, even if he didn’t trust them yet or reveal his identify. It took time, too, as the brothers had to travel long distances to and from their father in Canaan. If Joseph could be patient, so can I!!!
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blueskies says:
Hi Oxy if you are still around, and I dont want to be all me, me, me, but I think I need a BIG boink. You know I spoke yesterday about my mother and my daughter and all that hoo-haa, well I too had little sleep last night and was completely disturbed by it all, so I am not really emotionally even today, BUT mother took my daughter out again today, to the restaurant I had booked for me and her later on in the week when I have the cash, when my daughter returned, even after I spoke to her about it AGAIN tis morning, she gave me a speech about how I was the only one in the family who couldnt ‘move on’ and I needed to stop living in the past, that my mother was her graaandmother. So I have asked her to leave and stay at a friend’s tonight because I cant cope with it at all. I just CANT. So mother dearest gets her reaction from me, via my daughter I am the bad guy for asking her to leave. I am so glad my son is on holiday ( at the sea side with his paternal granparents) and not being subjected to all this hoo-haa. So I am angry, I am upset … I need a boink on the head, some breathing exercises an emergency yoga intervention or something… I know there have been lots of dicussions here on forgiveness today, which I am reading… I am not trying to monopolise anyones time but could someone point me in the direction of discussions/ articles past or present about how to calm the frick down when the creatures come in and undermine your peace using your children as a trojan horse… Thank you LF-ers xxx
Now someone here asked about my daugther being ‘normal’ and i see she is currently the weak link to the toxic mother and sister that I am trying to get out of my life, but she is being used here… how do I effectively deal with this without alienating my daughter. I am NOT strong enough to go into battle with these people over my daughter, which is what they are trying to force… I am not strong enough to go into battle with my daughter(neither do I wish to!) about them… but I am NOT being respected by her or them at the VERY least. I need a magnanimous shot in the butt.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Lily,
I have found many of the old Bible stories to have NEW MEANING as I re-read then while all this was going on. The story of King (to be) David hding in a cave from King Saul who was trying to kill him. God COULD have kept Saul from trying to kill David, but i believe there was a LESSON FOR DAVID in the fact he had to run and hide. I also found a LESSON FOR ME in having to run and hide from my would-be murderers. It bought me to the realization that I had also been enabling my psychopathic offspring for many years and that my hope for him was built on LIES.
If none of this had happened, if none of this had been exposed, if my X DIL had not had the affair with the psychopathic would be killer, and been caught, and then tried to kill son C (unsuccessfully thank GOD) then my son would still be unhappily married to that woman, I would still be enabling my P son and God alone knows what he would have done, I might not be alive today….so you know, “it is a VERY ILL wind that blows no one good.” In spite of the pain, I feel blessed that I had this happen because the end is much better than I deserve, and I am FREE of my delusions and my enabling of undeserving others. I am taking care of God’s daughter, ME!!!!
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ANewLily says:
MariaLisa, thank you for reposting Kathleen’s article on forgiveness. Yes, it is important to acknowledge the source because once something is written, it is truly copyrighted material. I see that you recognize that and will rectify it. Good job!
But, I want to thank both of you TODAY for allowing me to reread the section about “…what forgiveness is NOT”
All five bullet points reassured me today that my forgiveness of my adult children was correctly given.
Somehow I missed that upon first reading. But, then, the JOY about my children finally making contact these past few days makes it more timely for me, I guess.
Those points also fit in with the reminder that I don’t HAVE to trust them YET.
Again, thanks to both of you.
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MariaLisa says:
blueskies
i believe i asked whether your daughter was normal. you said she was.
im no expert on raising, i dont have kids, but i dont differ as much from the age of your daughter ( 18 i believe you said, correct me if im wrong) as most of the LF-ers so: i dont think there is anything you can do to prevent all this from developing. i suppose your daughter will have to be dissappointed all by herself. when it occurs ( the disappointment from getting to know her grandma’s patterns and the negative effect it will ultimately also have on your daughter), she will at least have a loving mother to fall back upon. and you will have to have taken good care of yourself in the meantime. repeat what your opinion and your view is. no more.
thats my view….hope its of any good to you. good luck…
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Escapee says:
Hi Blueskies
Nice to see you back. Mind if I chip in.
Really sorry to hear about the latest on your front and it must be the worst feeling in the world (I get uptight with myself because mine are grown-up and absent in the ‘normal’ way that they are once they get to adulthood (empty nest and all that), so this must be very difficult and painfu for you).
As this is NOT my experience, I am perhaps being presumptious in giving out advice. All I can say is that I have been close to this with my own sister and her daughter – coming under stronger influences of the toxic variety.
Don’t lose her. It sounds like you’ve suffered enough ‘losses’ and this would be a terrible blow. If you have to, keep your own counsel – use LF, as you already do, as your outlet and trusted friends. I don’t know how old your daughter is but sounds like she’s still ‘forming’ – the closer you are, the less chance ‘they’ have of influencing her – make up your mind that they ‘ain’t gonna win this one’ no matter what. If you can muster it, when she makes a comment about something they’ve said, be light and airy ‘dissmissive’ – don’t give it any credence. Love wins out.
Remember – they divide and conquer – close off the opportunity for ‘division’ from your precious girl. When your hackles rise, see your serenity and calm towards her as a ‘victory’ over their toxicity.
Don’t know if this helps but it’s all I have to offer from experience and it’s just in case there’s no wiser soul around.
All love and keep posting for strength.
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MariaLisa says:
hi anewlily
yes its a great piece by kathleen! im gonna order the book ( forgive for good) she advised aswell ( got soo much to read!!), maybe you like to look into it too.
i did say right away i thought it was from the lovefraud site or eve wood’s and that it wasnt mine naturally…..i posted it because it summed up a profound answer to so many questions that were occurring.
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blueskies says:
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Escapee says:
Blueskies
Don’t agree ‘there’s nothing you can do to prevent this’ – that’s very defeatest and the ‘hand that rocks the cradle’ and all that…. I think as mothers, there are times when things feel outside of our influence and this is often the paradox of parenthood : that we have to let others learn by their own hard won experience (even our own children) but I really believe that the one way we can ‘influence’ our children (even adult or nearly adult children) is to ‘lead by example’ – this is perhaps a little outside of ‘MariaLisa’s’ experience – given her ‘tender’ years. As you wil know, it takes work, self control and love.
All good wishes to you and hope you have a better days tomorrow.
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blueskies says:
Escapee – it REALLY helps:)x I think I have been caught up in the tornado a bit here:( I really need to sort out how easily I react to this stuff… I think having torn down coping mechanisms I had before, I am left with no positive to counter this chit…in a positive way… need to catch my breath and relax dont I? and things will be clearer in the morning.xThanks for chipping in:)
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blueskies says:
typo – no mechanisms – not no positive:)x
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MariaLisa says:
im 28. so not that tender. just younger than most.
i wrote donna long before i found out the blog. i wrote her my story, my age is also in there.
i dont understand how it is possible from being and feeling so hurt by fellow bloggers. i have truly done what i could to help here and there and also to receive help. this kind of kindergarten type of singling a person out feels horrible. and why…because my english is different, because i write different? i am different. everyone is. either way i sit here late in the evening with tight shoulders and an increased heartbeat. feeling hunted down. i dont wanna feel this way. AGAIN. and i cant even blame anyone since i know how my psychopathic ex messed with my mind and how dissapointed and afraid of other people it made me for a while and well actually still, this experience is horrible again. its only recently that i went out to see people again.
thank you to the people who were so generous with their help, insights and everything and especially Oxy and Kathleen ( and many others!)
i wish everybody wisdom and love.
xxx
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Escapee says:
Blueskies
It sounds to me like you are react to the ‘indirect’ attack on your person. I remember you saying in previous posts that both your mother and sister had been physically abusive to you in the past. Well, now it’s just switched tack. It’s not the obvious physical violence to your person, as when you were a kid, they are attacking you through emotionally manipulating your daughter and you have been ‘weakened’ – as you say – your coping mechanisms were torn down, or certainly seem to have been compromised. But also, you may have to develop new ones because the abuse is mutating (by the sounds of it).
If your ‘gut’ is telling you that you have to catch breath and relax, that’s probably your own best advice. I think your ‘maternal instincts” will kick in and tell you what to do, if they haven’t already. Well done girl.
All love.
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Escapee says:
oops typo! first line: reacting……
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ErinBrockovich says:
HI YA”LL…..
Just got back from court…..thought I would check in …..
Got an immediate eviction order….heading over as we speak to change the locks…..notified the Sheriffs of teh eviction, need to post and put up security cameras that record….I have myu suspicians this guys not done with me…..for sure a N, don’t know him enough to go further…..but he;s a con through and through!
Taking the video camera/digi cam and taking posession of anything they left….Valuables first!!! Need to get my money some how!
Have filed a felony bad check with the Da’s office, filed the lawsuit ……but for now I have posession of my property back!!!
Hope it’s in ‘decent’ condition….
Wish me luck, I will chekc back in later….
EB
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Escapee says:
ML
If I have done you an injustice, I apolgoise unreservedly. It’s not what I am about – ‘use of language’ can easily be misrepresented when the non’verbal clues are missing.
I think we are all vulnerable and a little self-protective. It’s understandable, give the nature of the visitors to this site.
I welcome anyone to disagree with anything I might say, I’m not the oracle, just trying to get better and help others along the way who have helped me – as has Blueskies on occasion.
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Escapee says:
Anothe typo! time for bed Escapee!
2nd para – ‘given’
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