The Narcissiopath
What do you call someone you’ve been describing alternately as a narcissist and sociopath? Someone for whom neither diagnosis alone quite suffices as a complete description of the individual, but rather in whom both disorders seem as if wrapped up in one menacing individual?
Pardoning my grandiosity for daring to expand the already crowded psychiatric nomeclature, I propose to call these hybrid personalities“narcissiopaths.”
While I don’t expect the DSM folks to take me very seriously (or anyone else for that matter), I’m thinking (unfacetiously) that there’s a case to be made here.
The narcissiopath, as I envision him (using “him” for convenience’s sake) will meet many of the essential criteria for both narcissistic and sociopathic personality. The closest extant clinical description of this disordered individual that comes to mind is the confusing term “maligant narcissist.”
Now personally, I find the term “malignant narcissist” wanting: for instance, precisely at what point does a narcissist turn “malignant?” And doesn’t this imply the concept of non-malignant narcissists who, by definition, must be “benign?” (I’m not so sure their partners would attest to their harmlessness?)
My concept, the narcissiopath, suggests very directly the personality fusion of narcissism and sociopathy in this particular personality. The narcissiopath is the individual who effectively conflates narcissism and sociopathy.
Let me briefly review these separate personalities—the narcissist and sociopath—in their more classical presentations. The narcissist is fundamentally a recognition-craver, a reassurance-craver, a convenience-craver, and an inordinate craver and demander of attention, catering and special status. He is in many respects insatiably needy emotionally.
At root, the narcissist is an overly entitled personality. He feels entitled to be accomodated on a pretty much continual basis. This begs the question, on what basis does he accord himself this right—to expect, that is, the continual accomodation of his needs and desires? The answer is, on the basis of his sense of himself as “special,” and his expectation that others—indeed, the world—will also recognize him as special.
Psychologically, a compensatory process often occurs with the narcissist. His “sensed” and “imposed” specialness is often a compensation for underlying and threatening self-vulnerability; and compensation for doubts about his power, worth and attractiveness—doubts that he is too immature to face squarely and maturely.
Although exploitation is not typically the narcissist’s primary motive, we recognize his capacity to be manipulative, cruel, deceptive and abusive; yet his darker machinations are usually secondary to his demanding, and sometimes desperate, pursuit of others’ attention and cooperation.
The narcissist is imfamously inept at managing his disappointment. He feels that he should never be disappointed, that others owe him protection from disappointment. When disappointed, he will find someone to blame, and will quickly de-idealize and devalue his disappointer.
Devaluing his disappointer now enables him to abuse her or him with more righteous indignation and less guilt.
For the sociopath, this is all much easier. Unlike the narcissist, he doesn’t have to perform mental gymnastics to subdue his guilt in order to exploit others with an unburdened conscience. The sociopath has no guilt to manage.
But the sociopath’s dead conscience isn’t per se what makes him sociopathic. Many people have weak consciences who aren’t sociopaths. It is his dead conscience in conjunction with his orientation to exploit that gets to the heart (really, heartlessness) of the sociopath.
The sociopath is variously a manipulator, liar, deceiver and violator of others; and he is these things less to regulate his unstable self-esteem than, more often than not, to enjoy himself, amuse himself, entertain himself, and take what he feels like taking in a way he finds optimally satisfying.
The sociopath, as I have discussed previously, is an audacious exploiter. His lack of shame supports his imperturbability, which enhances the experience of his audacity. The sociopath leaves one shaking one’s head at his nerve, his gall. One imagines that to venture the deception and outrages the sociopath pursues with his famous, blithe composure, he must possess a chilling callousness and coldness beneath what may otherwise be his veneer of “normality.” One imagines correctly.
Now sometimes we find ourselves dealing, as I’ve suggested, with individuals who seem, at once, to be both narcissist and sociopath, as if straddling, or embodying both disorders.
These are the individuals I’m proposing to call narcissiopaths.
For a good celebrity example of this, consider O.J. Simpson. Simpson, as his story evolved, was someone you found yourself confusingly calling a narcissistic personality disorder (probably correctly) in one conversation, and in the very next, a sociopath (probably correctly).
You found yourself vacillating between the two diagnoses because he seemed to fulfill important criteria of both. There was O.J. the narcissist: publicly charming, charismatic, disarmingly engaging and seductively likeable while privately, behind closed doors, he was tyrannizing Nicole Brown whenever he felt his “omnipotent control” threatened.
Simpson came to epitomize the indulged athlete: catered to all his life for his special athletic gifts, somewhere along the line he came to believe, with ultimately violent conviction, in his right to control and be heeded, not defied.
Simpson was all about “looking good,” about public show; in Nicole Brown he’d found a woman—a “trophy wife”—who could “reflect well” on him publicly, and on his “greatness.” She was also, tragically, the “perfect” choice to engage his narcissistic compulsion to alternately idealize, and then devalue, her; that is, to idealize the perfect, and then devalue the perfectly dirty, sex object.
In other words, in choosing her, Simpson chose well for his narcissism.
In the end, Simpson was as charming, ingratiating, and as shallow and superficial as so many narcissists (and all sociopaths) are.
But he was more than that. He was also callous, and brutally violent. He descended upon Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman like the knife-wielding devil he was, nearly carving Brown’s head off and massacring Goldman.
And then…he lied.
He maintained his innocence with outrageous brazenness, determined to win the next stage of yet another game. And where was the remorse? There was none; just his arrogant, insulting contempt.
Simpson had executed a miraculous performance. He had escaped from double-murder and the incontrovertible evidence of his guilt as improbably, as impossibly, as he’d so often escaped (brilliantly) opposing defenses and game-plans geared to stop him.
Finally, although I’d say that Simpson probably tilts, on balance, more to a narcissistic personality structure than not, he also possesses many of the most dangerous and essential diagnostic features of the sociopath. He seems, in other words, to be not entirely one or the other, but both narcissist and sociopath all in one.
I intend to flesh out the concept of the narcissiopath in future posts. And I look forward, as always, to your feedback.
(This article is copyrighted © 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
Donna Andersen says:
Excellent description of the differences between the two disorders. I found it very helpful.
And then when someone is part of each – no wonder it’s hard to sort this out.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:45am
newlife08 says:
Steve,
I want to take this “hybrid” description and paste it across his freakin’ forehead. Correct me if I am wrong, but it sure does sound like the once “Love of my life”.
I have heard over and over recently, as people reacted to our divorce , their surprise. It seems he always described me as a great wife, hard worker with a good job, good cook, good mom, smartest woman he ever met…..yada , yada.
So it puzzled me even more that he would so betray me if I were all of these wonderful things. If he never put me down or disparaged me in any way – and I was such a good wife – why all the others? Geez one wife and one girlfriend weren’t enough – why the internet stuff? Why 3, 4 or 5 ongoing relationships of varying types?
I decided to ask if he EVER said how much he LOVED ME – but the answer has always been ” Well, no -not in those exact words. But , OH, he spoke so HIGHLY of you.”
Indeed, like I was some kind of prize I guess, that he was happy to claim but not have a real relationship with.
And of course, the lack of conscience he showed in finances and conning me & friends of many years – and there will be more but he just may need to acquire a whole new crowd. The old crowd is dwindling and I don’t think they are going back for more.
Although he was never physically violent, I am learning to recognize his behaviors as abuse – even now his words are cruel and punishing. The withdrawal and silent treatment you have written of – they were brutal and empty times emotionally as well as psychologically. It is a puzzle none of us are able to figure out until it becomes so unbearable we look for help.
I wish there were something we could do for our teens in school, getting ready to experience relationships and knowing nothing of what they will most likely encounter at least once.
We have programs of Family Life, Gang education, drug ed and tolerance of differences. But nothing to prepare our kids for dating , establishing boundaries and how to recognize some of the personalities described on this site.
I thank you once again for your insight and talent in clearing the path for healing. In all my readings, and I have a shelf of info , I have not come across anything that allows for a blend of these personalities. It becomes so confusing to say – Well, he is this -but not that-or he is more of this and there is the other other stuff he does….. after awhile you would feel like you are going in a circle.
As you say about OJ, there is no remorse, he in fact acts the victim , is smug and ENTITLED to what he has taken.
I think it is his “enjoyment” of my pain, the sheer pleasure and smile that comes across his face as he spews words that he KNOWS will hurt and confuse , that sets off my alarm now in my head – HE REALLY IS SICK !!!!LOOK HOW FREE HE FEELS TO TREAT YOU LIKE CRAP!!!
It is sad – but FREEING to my soul.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:25am
Hecates path says:
Steve… your ability to explore and synthesize behaviors that at times seem incomprehendable, combined with your ability to blend those observations with new insight is priceless! My therapist has, by proxy, “diagnosed” the toxic person in my life as a “co-morbid borderline (BPD) & narcissist with socipathic tendencies” – and follows that by repeatedly saying he is one of the most disturbed people she has ever encountered… From my reading here I know that sadly he is one of many. We have discussed at length the shortcomings of the DSM IV’s antisocial personality disorder and in fact my B/N/S initiated her personal re-evaluation of the ASPD’s shortcomings. She will like your blended title and synthesis … I have shared a number of your articles here with her and 1 or 2 even served as “ammunition” in her dialogue with other therapists as to the “diagnosibility” of the Sociopath. Thank you, as always!!!!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:44am
ANewLily says:
Thank you, Steve, for this new word! I’ve been looking for such a word that combines them both for some time. Without one word that describes my abusive EX it has been difficult to explain to others what I experienced with him.
Newlife, except that mine was periodically abusive, your story sounds identical to mine. I remember one of the last semi-civil conversations I had with him after I had fled 1800 miles away. Someone had given me a great compliment and I asked him why he never complimented me even once during our long “marriage.” His immediate answer (unusual for him because he often didn’t answer me at all) was, “Oh, I tell EVERYONE how wonderful you are.” When I responded, “Why didn’t you ever tell ME?” there was silence (USUAL) on the phone.
I was still “in the dark” about personality disorders at that time but later when I got “knowledge” I realized that I, as I had already suspected, was truly his “trophy wife,” his “arm candy.”
No wonder he would never “let” me have an opinion of my own! I was expected to be an object for him to admire only.
Thanks, again, Steve. This new word FITS perfectly for my Ex.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:18am
ANewLily says:
I meant “periodically PHYSICALLY abusive.”
I have accepted that I will never know why he’d “out of the blue” grab my elbows and toss me to and fro like a rag doll and then walk off without a word. If he was angry, he sure never showed it!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:29am
Leah says:
Well written. Perfect description of my ex. I’ve gone back on forth for some time on whether he’d be more correctly classified as a psychopath (or sociopath) versus a narcissist. I’ve ended up just referring to him as a cluster b in my mind. You nailed the description quite well. In a related vein, Barbara Oakley in Evil Genes refers to Mao and a few others as “borderpaths” – combination borderline and psychopath.
….Jumping topics slightly….I think the general ignorance of the general public is so profound that any use of such terms in an attempt to communicate with unitiated creates an almost impenetrable barrier. I am curious, Donna (if you are still reading) when you sent your query letters to the magazines if you used the term “sociopath.” I wonder if the use if more innocuous phraseology (at least in the query itself) such as “dangerously controlling personality”or some better, less threatening phrase would have made a difference in the editors’ reactions.
Too bad you (plural) are not writing the psych texts rather than the Zimbardo types who think evil is all due to “bad barrels” rather than “bad apples” and would rather devote more ink to schitzophrenia than the cluster Bs.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:34am
holywatersalt says:
Actually from all the psych lit reading I do, I have learned professionals tend to glom these disorders together.
Narcsocipath is about right, but I think psychopath,scoiopath and malignant narcissist are all the same just the “expression”of the traits is different. One is Madoof, another Manson and yest another Don Juan.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:57am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Thank you, everyone….Donna, NewLife, Hecates, A NewLily, Leah….I really appreciate your feedback.
The LoveFraud site is an incredible stimulant, it seems, to all of us in terms of how we think about exploiters.
Hecates, your comments are so generous. NewLife, you are constantly challenging my thinking in so many ways that I appreciate.
Again, to all…mucho thanks!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:57am
OxDrover says:
Dear Steve,
My P-sperm donor and my P-son are both perfectly described by your new “term”—both are soooooo Narcissistic in addition to being so malicious (viiolent psychoopathis) that they both make OJ look like “Mother Theresa.”
Great article—and I DO wish your term would be adopted, it is much more descriptive and understandable than some of the current “professional” terminology which is so confusing.
While all psychopaths are to some extent Narcissistic, I think some are WAAAAY off the scale in N-ish entitlement. Some like to draw public attention to themselves more than others. OJ is a perfect example, I think.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:18pm
breckgirl says:
With everyone nodding agreement I have to say I am actually a bit confused… Steve or someone please explain this to me –
I can see the Narcissism as described in OJ but then I don’t get the transition to Psychopath – ie: is it not the rejection of him by Nicole and her being with other men that set off his violence – and I would think that is a Narcissistic injury and hence the murderous rage and action. So is it that a Narcissist would not go that far? Or that they would not deny their actions??? Or is it how coldly he denied guilt? I would think his Narcissism was fed immensely with the trial and all the media attention – once again he was in the public eye…
Can someone help me understand this better?
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:40pm
breckgirl says:
Okay Oxy – just saw your post above mine – that helps a bit.
It just seems like maybe they are really variations on a theme-
ie: there are your “look at me, look at me” end of the sociopaths and your more circumspect – “ha ha ha – I’m hiding in plain sight – look what I did” sociopaths (ie: BTK)….
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:43pm
Escapee says:
Thanks Steve. This has finally ‘nailed it’ for me! Why one of the symptoms of people here who are victims of these types is that we have to have ‘definition’ specific, I don’t know – guess it’s just trying to make sense of what the hell happened to your life – I think it’s human nature to want to try to understand what you’ve been dealing with and why you feel so crazed in the aftermath involvement with them.
I never felt that he did things purely for his amusement – as would an S – more that it made him feel empowered to put people down, bully and create situations where others felt threatened and uncomfortable. Fortunately, I didn’t hang round long enough for the violence to really escalate – the threat of it was enough me. He hit me once and came back with the classic line ‘now look what you’ve made me do!” – but he was very aware of his ‘good guy’ image – not that he had one – just deluded himself that he was seen that way. – classic Narcissist eh!? This is perhaps what contained the violence but I am sure there are plenty of situations I don’t know about outside of the ‘relationship’ where he would use violence and intimidation – in fact, I know of two at least – he boasted about them – of course, painting himself as the ‘good guy’ and ‘rescuer’. (I don’t think antagonising a drunk on a train and then busting his nose – to show off to a colleage and carriage full of passengers is anything to boast about but heh ho, I’m not a deranged ‘Narciopath’ so how can I comment – who knows what goes on inside their crazy deluded brains!
I think your phrases ‘overly entitled’ and ‘insatiably needy, emotionally’ are spot-on. The constant need for recognition and to be told ‘how proud of you I am’ were totally foreign to me – I’d never come across anyone before who thought that partners/family were somehow lacking in their appreciation if they weren’t constantly ‘reassuring’ in this way – it was all very ‘wearing’ – thanks for clarifying.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:50pm
Jen2008 says:
Another great article Steve!
Like Oxy’s son, my ex was extremely narcissistic in addition to being malicious and criminally oriented and he liked to hide some misdeeds and brag like crazy about others. He would make no bones one day about enjoying hurting and f*cking over people, then denying it and swearing he is nice and honest to a fault the next day!
I like Steve’s new term. But here is my question to Steve for his opinion (or anyone else)….from reading, my understanding is that although the diagnostic manual lumps aspd, sociopath, and psychopath all under aspd, that the psychiatric manual still uses the term psychopath for those who meet the pcl-r criteria and that researchers do differentiate between aspd, sociopath, and psychopath.
A person can meet the criteria for aspd, but NOT be a sociopath or a psychopath. And a person could be a sociopath but NOT a psychopath. Yet most psychopaths DO meet the criteria for aspd in addition to the criteria for psychopathy.
And also that once the person scores past 30 on the pcl-r and can be determined to be a psychopath that the level of narcissism has also risen accordingly right along with their high score. So the higher level of psychopathy has a higher level of narcissism is the way I understand it.
So a sociopath who scores below the 30 would not necessarily be all that narcissistic. But if a person that scores with perfect score of 40 or very close to it, wouldn’t the level of narcissism be so great due to those traits also rising in addition to the maliciousness, that in effect you simply have a psychopath.
In other words, you have the aspd, then the sociopath, then the psychopath. But the psychopath sounds to me like what you are describing as a Narcsociopath.
But I like your term better because like someone else said it is easier to understand. But still, my question is, wouldn’t that simply be a high scoring psychopath? (sorry for the ramble and hope this is understandable)
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:53pm
justabouthealed says:
It is very helpful to use public figures that we “know” like OJ, because it brings abstract qualities to life. Also movie characters can help. The bad guy I was involved with (I don’t like to use the phrase “my N” or “My p”..ugh…not mine, thank god) was a crueler Thomas Crown. Totally not forthright. totally loved to pull one over on “worthy” opponents just for the hell of it to prove his brilliance to himself, would not relieve other’s emotional distress when he easily could and hid behind noble reasons but really just like to be pulling the strings (as when Thomas Crown appears to be protecting the true identity of the painter’s daughter..the blond, I forget the details…and letting his lover think the blond is a lover), deliberating setting up emotional distress (watching her cry in the jet at the end), liked to test and shock, and was totally used to everyone kissing his ass. To the fictional character add sexual addiction, alcohol abuse, need to be constantly off on another trip always on the move, marriage to a heiress, cheating on the heiress with her best friend and many others, jealousy of the attention his wife gives his kids, sending kids off as soon as they outgrow the nanny to boarding schools across the country, inability to tolerate being alone, envy, deep envy and the diagnosis is……pure hell!
Love the new term!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:11pm
OxDrover says:
My own personal picturing Ns and Ps is that there is a “scale” of 1 to 10 for Narcissists, with 1 being the person who will eat the last piece of cake, knowing you haven’t had any…not trying to deprive you of cake, just not being considerate.
A 10 in Narcissistic traits would be like the “public figure” who will do anything for publicity, and doesn’t really care if it is negative or positive attention as long as THEY ARE GETTING ATTENTION.
While I believe ALL psychopaths are ALSO Narcissistic to one degree or another, the worst of the worst, to me are the OJs who are HIGH IN N TRAITS, but also VIOLENT and have no remorse.
So where does “malignant Narcissism” end and psychopathic traits begin? I think there is a great deal of OVERLAP, but that some psychopaths like to do their dirty deeds in “private” and like to get away with their dirty deeds and have their victims not be aware that they were screwed by the P, and then there are the ones like OJ who pretty much want the world to know they did it and got away with it—of course DENYING all the time.
My P-sperm donor used to love to BRAG about all the people he had killed, but in his “autobiography” denied he was a murderer.
Some Ps get off on being feared and perceived as a bad ass, and others want to be perceived as “mr Nice guy”—-but in the end, ALL of them have NO EMPATHY, NO COMPASSION, AND NO REMORSE. It is just, I think, a variation on a theme.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:17pm
breckgirl says:
Okay – now I’m really lost –
can someone give me a simple definition – or the distinction between-
Sociopath
Psychopath
ASPD
and finally I do think (think I think) I understand what an N is…
but I thought the other three were different terms for the same type of thinking or motives for behaviour…?
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:27pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Thanks, Steve, for another wonderful article, and a really great idea. The crossover between these types — or rather the narcissists who are more toxic — has always been hard to define with the existing diagnostic terms.
Various therapists have described my ex as a “malignant narcissist,” an “aggressive narcissist,” and a “Machiavellian narcissist.” All I know is that he fits the narcissistic characteristics to a tee. But then, he seemed to cross the line as well in sociopathy. He was occasionally sadistic, but more importantly he was viciously exploitive and could stand back and watch the damage escalating with a kind of detached scientific interest.
I think that one of the difficulties in identifying these people is that they present as narcissists. They initially seem to need a lot of ego support. But then, if they can get that from you, their objectives escalate and “helping them” becomes more expensive and more fraught with threat of abuse.
If you write more about this topic, I’d be really interested to know if you have any ideas about the initial phase (which I call the “incoming” phase, and which can reoccur anytime they’re working on us for another concession or trying to keep us from resigning from the role). At the time I was impressed — and now in retrospect even more impressed — with how clever mine was. I sometimes felt like I was in a movie that he had plotted very carefully. Everything he did and said to me was like a set-up for some longer-term objective.
I don’t think that he know at the beginning exactly how far he could take it, how much he could get from me, but he was prepared at every turn. He had strategies and responses ready. I had my own needy emotional drama which dominated my emotional responses, but on another level I was aware of how very smart he was.
So when I heard the term “Machiavellian,” it seemed to really fit him. It wasn’t until the end, when my pain overtook my attachment to him and I started to disengage, that he seemed to lose control. Disengagement was the one thing he couldn’t respond to. A tremendous amount of what happened between us, I think, was about him soliciting and enforcing my engagement. And that where I think he was more of a sociopath.
Though I’m not sure. Maybe it would be equally true for a narcissist holding on to his “source.”
This is a confusing subject. And that’s one of the reasons I try to stay focused on my own reactions instead of spending too much time figuring him out. To the extent I can do anything about it, I don’t want anything like this in my life ever again.
Thanks again, Steve.
Kathy
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:30pm
breckgirl says:
Thank you Kathleen – what you write:
This is a confusing subject. And that’s one of the reasons I try to stay focused on my own reactions instead of spending too much time figuring him out. To the extent I can do anything about it, I don’t want anything like this in my life ever again.
this is truly the most important part for me now – I still can get distracted by the desire to define and understand but truly – it does not matter if I know why certain people are a danger to me – I just need to know what the danger signs are and then to remove myself rather than trying to “help” them – which is how I have been sucked in for the most part anyway…
Ugh.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:40pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, i like so much your take on things and really do find myself agreeing with, and appreciating, most everything you say. Thank you for tackling and clarifying some very good, complex questions.
My own take, and consistent, I think, with Donna’s position at LoveFraud, is that “sociopath” and “psychopat,”h for all intents and purposes describe the same personality. Donna has chosen to use the term sociopath on her site, and while there certainly is inconsistency in the literature around these terms, my own bias to regard them as equivalent.
I too have seen distinctions made in various books and articles, etc., between the sociopath and psychopath, but by and large, from my perspective, when I use these terms, they mean the exact same thing.
The antisocial personality disordered individual, on the other hand, often will not meet criteria for sociopathy (aka psychopathy). As Hare and so many others have pointed out, while a majority, for instance, of maximum security inmates will meet criteria for ASPD, only a minority of them will qualify as sociopaths.
The antisocial personality disorder diagnosis is heavily weighted for criminal/illegal activity (hence so many criminals have the diagnosis); but it fails to capture the rarer and, many believe, more salient “affective disturbance” of the sociopath/psychopath.
I know this is a very incomplete answer. I expect others to answer all these questions with much thoughtfulness. I’ll keep track as well.
breckgirl–you ask an excellent question and if the feedback you’ve gotten so far hasn’t satisfied you, i’ll take another crack at it. but your basic take on Simpson–that all, not just some, of his behaviors and motives seemed loaded with narcissism–is very valid.
It is true that OJ was shot through and through with narcissism. I know this response doesn’t answer your confusion, but let me, for the moment, at least validate your instincts and insight!
Steve
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:55pm
justabouthealed says:
Kathy, can so relate to what you are saying. The narcissiopath or whatever that I was involved with would always wait for the moment he knew I was totally in love, and then dump me in the most shocking unexpected way he could think of, when it appeared to even not be in his best interests. That is because his “best interests” weren’t what a normal person wants: love, sex, intimacy, etc. His self-defined “best interests” were total control (almost to the point of coming across as oppositional defiant), being able to hurt deeply but escape blame, WINNING, pulling one over, watching emotional pain with that scientific interest you mentioned, etc. For example, it was more “fun” to unexpectedly tell me “go home” after professing true love and just 20 minutes or so after lovemaking, and lose a week’s sex vacation with me….. than it would have been to have the sex , love and vacation. Oh, and yes, he’d keep the $500 gift I had just given him less than 12 hours earlier. What he got off on was being in control but behind a “good guy” mask, usually. But sometimes, like on that occasion, he was just flip. Said it maybe was because I didn’t go to breakfast with him.
I just think of them now as brain damaged. Am sad for what they could have been with a normal brain, but look at them with the same attitude as when I encounter a coiled rattlesnake shaking the rattles. I know how that story will end if I try to give it a hug. And thankfully, I no longer want to give the hug anyway.
It is disillusioning however. When I was younger, I certainly thought you could always find a way to “work things out” about any misunderstanding. No more.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:56pm
Jen2008 says:
Well, I think all of them are bad news, but Robert Hare says being a sociopath is like having a cold, whereas being a psychopath is like having pneumonia.
But anyways, here is also another view on the difference in the disorders if anyone wants to read the article (it is not too long) and it is written by Dr. Katherine Ramsland, a well known researcher in the field of psychopathy, a college instructor and author of a bunch of books on the subject).
http://incoldblogger.blogspot......opath.html
Meloy says in Violent Attachments (page 80 -86) that when they (psychopaths) are compared with narcissistic males, that the psychopath males are just as pathologically narcissistic and self-absorbed (based on Gacono et al. 1992). But the narcissistic male has significantly greater capacities for attachment and anxiety and that the narcissistic male also uses the adaptive defense of idealization more readily than the psychopath.
Meloy says that in psychopaths, that entitlement may negate the possiblility of idealization, as there seems to be an expectation to be served by, rather than idealize, the object. (again Gacono et al. 1992, p. 45)
Meloy goes on to say research indicates the most frequently used defenses in psychopathy are devaluation and massive denial, followed by (in order) projective identification, omnipotence, and splitting……Narcissistic pd’s evidenced mirroring object relations almost identical to psychopaths. But unlike the psychopath, the narcissist sample (in studies) did not have the feelings of being aggressed against, and showed les frequest symbiotic merging, violent symbiosis and reuinion, and boundary disturbance.
That idealization and other higher level defenses such as rationalization and intellectualization, isolation (of the psychopath) , and repression are virtualy absent in psychopathy.
And that when idealization is used, it often is suggestive of self idealization of the enhancement of hard objecs such as the accroutements of power, weapons, money, material goods, or other individuals who have been deanimated into possessions.
meloy says when borderlie and narcissistgic males are compared with psychopathic males, the defensive operations are similar and it suggests a common borderline personality organization with associated defenses.
However, psychopaths produce significantly fewer idealization responses than other groups. That pswychopaths manipulate and destroy hope in order to ward off their own feelings of envy towards the perceived goodness in others. And that envy is a primary feeling and central to the affective regulation of the psychopath, suggestive of oral sadistic and anal sadistic destructive impulses (Klein 1957)
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:45pm
Jen2008 says:
Another difference between the narcissist and the psychopath per Meloy seems to be alcoholism and drug problems. Smith and Newman (1990) found that psychoapths were more likely than non psychopaths to have a lifetime diagnosis of alcoholisn, any drug disorder, and also multiple drug disorders.
That substance abuse is significantly related to Factor 2 (antisocial behavior), but not to Factor 1 (aggressive narcissism).
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 3:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear JAH, Your analogy of the rattle snake is very similar to mine, I maintain that no matter how you are kind to a rattle snake, and love it and do things fo rit, it will NEVER GROW HAIR AND LOVE YOU BACK LIKE A PUPPY! LOL
Jen, thanks for that very good and informational post. No matter what “research” does to indicate the various different levels of various traits of the TOXIC personaity disorders—by whatever name they choose to call them, or how many different “catagories” they come up with as “diagnositc” criteria for each of these “different” diaagnoses, the BOTTOM LINE, TAKE HOME LESSON is that these people are TOXIC to relationships no matter whether their “level is” great or small compared to others of their ilk, and that there is NO FIXING THEM however much therapy they get, AND THAT ANY OF THESE TRAITS (even without a professional diagnosis–which few of us on this blog are qualified to make) we are worse than idiots if now that we know what the red flags are, and realized we are dealing with toxic people, we don’t FLEE AS FAST AS WE CAN from these people at the FIRST SIGN OF A RED FLAG…we may end up fleeing frm just an “ordinary” liar instead of someone who is TOTALLY TOXIC, but so what? Do we want to associate ourselves with even an “ordinary” liar in a CLOSE relationship?
Well, maybe I am being “too judgmental” in saying that the FIRST TIME I find out someone lied to me, that is THE END of any close relationship or ANY TRUST with that person (young children excepted) and that I do not want to have anything to do with them in teh future. Maybe that makes me an “opinionated old judgmental biddy” but you know what???? TOWANDA!!! for me!!!!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 4:04pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
The narcissist I knew was subject to crushing shame and lived with a very high degree of stress. He was constantly trying to impress the right people, and it was a lot of work. He also needed to lord it over a certain number of people, and build himself by tearing them down. He tended to have a compulsion to do absolutely crazy grands things that almost always ended badly. He suffered horrible depressions when he was unmasked in one of his schemes or thwarted. In one memorable instance, he threw a fit that bore a striking resemblance to a psychotic episode.
The narcissist absolutely had to destroy people who he associated with his humiliation, but only to prove once and for all that he was wonderful and they were dirt. He did it in an effort to stop his pain. He lived parasitically, but only because no jobs were offered that were “special” enough for his particular gifts.
The sociopath I knew experienced little or no stress or anxiety. He lived parasitically, and felt no shame over this. He manipulated people into giving him what he wanted because he could. He discarded people when he no longer had use for them, and slandered them only in an effort to cover his tracks. Over and over again he assaulted people, conned people, used and discarded people and used drugs. He was addicted to excitement, and stirred up stupid fights out of boredom.
Sure, the sociopath acted arrogant, and did some of the same things the narcissist did. Sure, the narcissist was parasitic, and did some of the same things the sociopath did.
To me, the key difference was in the two men’s emotional life. When the Sociopath said he was depressed, he meant that he was bored. When the Narcissist said he was depressed, he meant that he was crushed by anxiety, pain, shame and/or fear. The narcissist’s emotions were literally making him physically ill.
To this day, I’ll avoid both men when I can. The difference is, I’ll go to greater effort to avoid the narcissist. He’s so emotional that an encounter with me will send him into a tailspin. He’ll remember that I’m aware of certain indiscretions of his, and his shame, pain and impotent rage will boil over. He’ll act the fool, or make himself sick from his own emotions. He may lash out and impulsively harm me, because he simply isn’t in his right mind. The sociopath on the other hand, suffers not a bit if he encounters me. I avoid him because nothing good comes from being around him. If he approaches me, I assume he’s up to no good, because that’s what kind of person he is. He’ll harm me if there’s something in it for him.
So in my limited experience, the two conditions have manifested themselves as distinct. The two men are equally dangerous, but in significantly different ways.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 5:15pm
OxDrover says:
EC,
I agree with you that sometimes their motivations are different, and other things as well…but the bottom line on either is that they are BOTH TOXIC….it doesn’t matter to me if a poison snake’s venom is hemo-toxic or is neuro-toxic, I am still going to have to deal with a POISON SNAKE BITE though the two bites and the toxins may act somewhat differently within my system….the point is that I am going to ENDURE SWELLING, PAIN, POSSIBLE LOSS OF A LIMB, OR OTHER DISABILITY, & POSSIBLE DEATH — so, ultimately a poison snake is a poison snake. Rattle snake (hemo-toxic) or cobra (neuro-toxic) I’m still SNAKE BIT!
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 5:32pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Elizabeth Conley, thanks for that description. It relates to my experience too.
Some years ago when I was training as a consultant with Brain Technologies (with the authors of “Strategy of the Dolphin”), I worked with one of their testing instruments about personal negotiating style. The options were give in, give up, win, compromise and something they called “breakthrough,” which was a creative win-win.
But the really interesting thing about this instrument was that it showed two layers of style. One of the way we negotiate when we’re not stressed (feeling resourceful), and the other was when we’re stressed (feeling resourceless). And they were really, really different.
Later I learned about the concept of decompensation, which is how a personality type can change under stress. And that seemed to be related to this concept.
You didn’t mention any borderlines in your description. But I was involved with a borderline once. And she has two very different modes. One was how she behaved when she felt secure and getting all her needs for emotional shelter met. The other was when anything got between her and her “source” — that is the person she identified as her emotional home. And then she turned into one of the scariest people I’ve ever known. Vicious, destructive, manipulative, vindictive.
It was because of her that I first became acquainted with the concept of decompensation, and it also matched that dual strategy that I say on the Brain Technologies test.
I’m wondering if something like this is in play with this narcissists that the cross the line. I saw the same thing you did in the nature of my ex’s depressions. He was no doubt a narcissist. But when his plans were threatened, he became something else entirely. Much colder, much more grasping and destructive. He completely abandoned whatever ethical structure he had when he was in a more resourceful mode.
Maybe I’m reaching here. Or maybe, as Oxy says, it doesn’t matter. But for me, who is trying to recognize patterns of behavior for my own defense, I think this difference in the way they present might be important.
There’s something needy in narcissists. For all their arrogance and bombast, it comes across pretty clearly. Something I’ve seen over and over with myself and the people I know who’ve gotten into these relationships, we relate and respond to this neediness. It seems easy enough to give them the ego support they need. Which often involves overlooking the incongruities in their stories, their lies, because we assume they’re doing it because they have similar emotional problems as us. By us, I mean people who are looking for validation, flattery or other types of positive attention to feel secure.
We give it to them. They give it to us. We think we understand what’s going on, and we reach what we think is a nice, mutually supportive stasis.
But, as you say, their internal architecture isn’t like ours. Or rather their way of getting out of their pain. Totally different strategies.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 6:47pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Kathleen,
“But for me, who is trying to recognize patterns of behavior for my own defense, I think this difference in the way they present might be important.”
That’s my natural reaction too. I want to spot them earlier, and deal with them more effectively.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 6:55pm
witsend says:
Elizabeth Conley,
Wow Elizabeth your description of the differences of the two that you encountered was very good.
Can you elaborate any more differences? You were able to clarify differences I had not exactly understood before.
Thanks
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:09pm
OxDrover says:
It is interesting to me that more women are diagnosed as “borderline” and more men as “Ns or Ps” and yet ther eis a great deal of overlap in the behaviors of Ns and Ps and BPDs when they are STRESSEd or something is threatening them.
I do know that many BPDs do have physical self mutilation issues that generally Ns, Ps don’t, and BPDs also seem to have more anxiety about losing their “supply source” than typically males do—-they have many otehr things in common though, like the “instant friendship” and the “love bombing” on the start of the relationships. Also, the “short memory” for their outbursts of violence one minute, then wanting to go on as if “nothing had happened” five minutes before when they tried to claw your eyes out.
I actually saw that behavior in a 10 year old child who attacked one of my sons when he was about that same age, and admitted later she was trying to claw his eyes out and make him BLIND—this same girl, later waltzed back into my life after a many year distance and her “life story” and her admitted behavior is so BORDERLINE she ought to be “text book” and “poster child” for BPD. Her mother’s “life story” is also very “borderline trait” heavy.
In fact, I have known the family on both sides (or my family has) for 4 generations, and there are dysfunctional and violent tendencies on both sides of her family leading back generations.
Looking back now on this episode of this girl when she was only 10, I see I think the situation more clearly now than I did then. At the time I thought it semi-serious that she would admit that she had INTENDED to make my son blind, but I didn’t see the significance I see in the incident today. I know kids get mad at each other and “fight” but the intention of BLINDING my son I think was a little over the top for a “normal” kid fighting (which at the time I thought she was.)
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:18pm
bunny says:
It seems like a good description to me.
I have come across someone on the internet who looks like a classic Cluster B. This woman abuses, lies, totally misrepresents, threatens and gaslights all over the place. Its quite incredible.
She says totally outrageous things about people she has never met and is never likely to meet – its almost like she is wanting a celebrity/politician to file slander charges against her.
If you want to see a cluster B in action, its a fascinating study.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 9:26pm
bunny says:
The posts in question start around September 2008, July 2008 and May 2008.
Sure its a site that gets alot of animated discussions, but these responses seem different.
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Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:16pm
Tilly says:
I feel very strongly that this new word is not only unnecessary and confusing, but also separates two behaviors that are equally as dangerous. I have to disagree, with Steve’s picture he has painted.
All the narcissists I have known, when disappointed enough, are quite capable of the psychopaths deadly violent behavior. And none of them have genuine guilt. They will act guilty. But what they are experiencing is only fear, NOT guilt. They are afraid that the next phase of their exploitation (to get their narcissistic supply, ( i.e. the horrific violence or exploitation or inhumane behaviour) is going to be much more difficult to get away with, (win) for them.
I believe that the narcissist, if given the circumstances, is just as equally capable as the psychopath, to do just as much damage as the latter and completely without guilt. It is only a matter of time and opportunity.
The psychopath also often idealizes and then later devalues in their treatment of their victims. It is nothing to do with their self esteem or justification. It is just a fun/game thing for them to do. They don’t NEED to justify anything to themselves…only others.
Psychopaths also often insist on all of the needy idolizing and specialness that narcissists do. Not because they “feel” anything, but just because “they can”.
In my experience, narcissists are just psychopaths in the making. They are at the kindergarten stage of the monster. Some narcissists may skip all schooling and graduate with honors in being a psychopath at a tender age or overnight.
For others, it may take until their mid fifties for them to graduate with honors in cold hearted callousness. Rarely does it take longer.
Or, like most psychopaths I know, they may go to their grave never having been caught for their murderous ways, always being seen as the “immature, funloving, childish narcissist” they pretend to be. Rather than the cold blooded crocodile waiting in the swamp, that they really are.
“Narcissiopath” is a waste of a word. There is no such thing. It is a euphemism for “psychopath in the making”, or “psychopath with their mask intact”.
.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 3:08am
Tilly says:
Furtherto:
Here are some justifications from guys who started out as “immature narissists”:
“I did this not as a sex act . . . but out of hate for her. I don’t mean out of hate for her in particular, really I mean out of hate for a woman.”
ALBERT DESALVO
“Society right from the very beginning started to make me an animal. . . that’s why I started all that killing.”
ALBERT DE SALVO
“I’ve killed no one. I’ve ordered no one to be killed. These children who come to you with their knives, they’re your children. I didn’t teach them, you did.”
CHARLES MANSON
“He started messing with the Christmas tree, telling me how nice the Christmas tree was. So I shot him.”
DAVID BULLOCK
“I talked to her saying I was sorry for what I had done. It was the first time I had apologized to someone I had killed”
PETER SUTCLIFFE
“What I did is not such a great harm, with all these surplus women nowadays. Anyway, I had a good time.”
RUDOLF PLEIL
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 4:45am
Tilly says:
Yet another childish Narcissist got five years for murder.
Peter Rollings went to his neighbors for a Christmas party. When one of his friends (in the hallway) said “Merry Christmas Peter”, he beat him to death.
The jury decided to give “poor Peter Rollings” a charge of manslaughter instead of murder.
The reason?
Peter and his girlfriend were sick of hearing, “Merry Christmas”, because, you see, they were pagan. And poor Peter took “Merry Christmas Peter” as an offense to his religion.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:13am
swallow says:
The following quote perfectly sums up for me the confusion that many of us have over whether someone is a P or an N.
He said this to me in calm, cold, emotionless and menacing tone of voice the day I walked away, having confronted him about the stolen money, the Other Woman, the deceit, lies etc. etc. Nothing fazed him and his only comment:-
“You can hate me – but don’t forget me”.
The words of a Narcissopath.
Swallow
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:26am
Alice says:
Thanks for the articles you provide. This web site has remained a source of help for me for years. What I have found is that the cops, courts, and mandated reporters are so easily manipulated and easily jump on the side of the NPD-S. In my own cases, I have brought information to the “Friend of the Court” workers documenting lie after lie that my ex has presented and yet these people refuse to hold him accountable for purjery, lying, assaults, child abuse, and domestic violence (I have been divorced from him for 11 years and it is still taking place). He even admitted assaulting me and the Friend of the Court worker “forgot” about this and VOLUNTEERED to testify on his behalf during a custody trial in which custody was changed. This Court worker and others write recommendations to the judges and the judges have always signed that won’t let parents get my son medical or educational treatment unless their NCP-S ex agrees. There are other women I have connected with who have very similar situations. One lady’s son has a growth on his leg that should be removed in order for it to be checked for cancer. The father is stopping the operation until after baseball season. Meanwhile, the child cannot sleep well and fears having cancer. I have also accompanied a friend of mine to the hospital who was beat up and bruised from her husband. When the hospital social worker contacted the cops, the cops came to the hospital and asked my bruised friend, “Well, what do you want us to do about it?” I understand why the abused want to get to safety and go to the extremem of going underground or killing their abuser. The only thing that keeps me from taking various situations in my own hands is the small Bible verse that states, “VENGENCE IS MINE SAYETH THE LORD.”
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:48am
Elizabeth Conley says:
witsend said:
Elizabeth Conley,
Can you elaborate any more differences? You were able to clarify differences I had not exactly understood before.
Thanks
Sadly, no. My encounters with cluster B personality disorders have been very, very limited. People like Steve have much more experience to draw from.
I will only state that the haughty affect of the Narcissist and the Sociopath seem to draw from two distinct sources. The Narcissist is deeply anxious, and at his core he has a very, very low self image. The Sociopath suffers little or no anxiety, and tends to have a high self image. I have noticed that the sociopath tends to base his high self image on his proficiency in skills the rest of us don’t value. He’s usually very proud of his ability to manipulate people and steal from “normals”.
The Narcissist is often really, really concerned about being seen as a good person. He reasons that he is “honest” if he doesn’t make any technically false statements. He reasons that he is not stealing if someone else in his family or organization is technically the one committing the theft. He further prefers his bribes or cons to be presented to him as gifts, because this affirms his self-worth. In other words, he does a lot of really bad things, and he lies to himself about what’s actually happening. He could not do these bad things if he weren’t able to conceal from himself the reality that his behavior is bad.
A Sociopath doesn’t worry about whether anyone else thinks he’s a good person, except that a good image aids him in committing his cons. (While the Narcissist is very distressed that his former victims see him as bad, a Sociopath is derisive: “What did you expect, Sucker!”) A sociopath doesn’t have an emotional need to consider himself good. He can have a very high opinion of himself, based on his outstanding skillfulness in being bad.
The reason we get in such trouble with a Narcissist is that the ride is over once they realize you’re on to them. You’re realization forces them to see themselves, if only for a split second, in an ugly light. Their fury is overwhelming, and it doesn’t fade with time. They will do everything in their power to punish you for that split second you held up a mirror to their faces. The fact that you had no idea that you were doing this to them, or how painful the experience would be for them, does not mitigate their fury toward you.
The reason we get in trouble with a sociopath is that we were targeted by a cold-blooded, remorseless criminal.
What the two types have in common is that the rest of us are far less “real” to them than they are to themselves. They’re 2 years old, when it comes to understanding where they begin and the rest of us end, and the value of interacting in a mutually beneficial way with a separate entity.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:05am
OxDrover says:
One of the nicest things about our discussion is that we are not actualoly trying to make a “legal diagnosis” so we don’t have to stick to a “set formula” in our conversation or have the “experts” agree with us….we can use PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE in deciding what the symptoms are and what a “name” (if any) should be. Plus, we don’t even have to AGREE to DISAGREE or anything else, we can each have our own opinions on this and still ALL BE RIGHT!
There are some things I think we all agree on for sure, and that is that WHATEVER YOU CALL THEM, they are TOXIC.
I think most of us agree on what narcissism is—self centered-ness to one degree or another, and we all pretty much agree that a socio/psycho-path has no conscience or empathy.
I think where the diffe4rences in our thought though is that some people seem to think that a person ahs to be a NARCISSIST OR A SOCIO/PSYCHOPATH (and I use both words there because though even Hare tries to differentiate between a socio and a psycho-path, and an ASPD the “reasons” I think aren’t so much a difference in behavior as a difference in internal THINKING or how they got that way (genetics or environment).
Personally, to use the snake analogy again—I don’t CARE how it EVOLVED or if God zapped it into existence or aliens dropped it on earth from a space ship—(a) the thing will bite you *(b) it is poison (c) I need to learn to recognize the EXTERIOR APPEARANCE so I can distinguish it from NON-poison snakes (d) I need to keep my eyes open so it doesn’t sneak up on me close enough to bite
Since there are SEVERAL types of poison snakes, there may be some difference in their exterior appearance, but they are all still VERY SIMILAR. ALL the poison snakes in my area are pit vipers, they are all long and skinny, they all have triangular shpaed heads, they ALL have “pits” on the front of their heads that look like nostrils. The colors may vary even withhin a species, and the usual habitatsmay vary somewhat, one kind is a primary water snake, but they all can and do swim from time to time.
They are MORE ALIKE THAN DIFFERENT, and though they are poison, they actually have some benefit to the ecology of the world, and as long as you don’t get too close to them, they can’t hurt you.
My own Personal opinion is that the Ns-Ps-Ss, ASPDs, Cluster Bs, toxic enablers, etc. are ALL toxic and all potentially harmfull, but if we recognize the GENERAL DISCRIPTIONS of the entire situation of DYSFUNCTIONAL BEHAVIOR then we are able to protect ourselves by keeping these people out of our lives.
We all know what the “RED FLAGS” are (there are tons of lists of them here on this site) and if we observe for RED FLAGS and then RUN from that person at the FIRST SIGN of a red flag waving—we are much more likely to not get bitten.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:54am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dear Oxdrover,
I’m in complete agreement with you that the ultimate solution to dealing with an N or an S is the same: no contact.
The only reason I recognize the conditions as distinct is that I’ve observed that because of the differences in their emotional life, lumping them together can cause us to fail to identify on or the other type. For instance, the extreme shame and genuine anxiety of a narcissist can cause us to fail to identify him/her as hazardous, if we are expecting him/her to exhibit the low arousal and remorselessness of a sociopath.
Also, the emotional outbursts of a narcissist may blindside us if we’re looking out for the cold-blooded sneakiness of a Sociopath. A Narcissist in a snit is amazing to behold. Imagine a person with the strength and size of a grown man exploding like a thwarted toddler. It’s terrifying. They can totally disconnect with reality, staring into space and muttering curses, or raving like lunatics.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 10:37am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Mind you, I feel very sorry for Narcissists, but I consider them to be quite dangerous. Their capacity to hold on to hatred indefinitely makes them at least as scary as a sociopath. A sociopath will eventually lose interest in harming a particular target, because the target can no longer supply what the S wants. To the sociopath it’s nothing personal – just business. The narcissist won’t stop until the target is destroyed, because it’s personal as far as the N is concerned.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 10:45am
Jen2008 says:
EC said: “A sociopath will eventually lose interest in harming a particular target, because the target can no longer supply what the S wants. To the sociopath it’s nothing personal – just business.”
Well, my opinion is that this is a dangerous misconception. From the socio blogs/forums I used to follow, the one thing most of them seemed to have in common was a great capacity to have you be out of sight/out of mind (so no they didn’t sit around and obsess over you until they could get revenge if they felt you wronged them in some way), BUT they still tried to get revenge when an opportunity presented itself, even many years later. Many of them said they could patiently wait years and years to seek revenge (and one forum actually had a thread started about the revenge subject), yet they could carry on with their life not really giving you any thought, pretty much like you did not exist for them most of the time unless they were in the mood for you to exist for them, until the time was right. But they never EVER forgot being wronged by you (in their mind) no matter how many years passed.
And another common theme was how they would appear to make up with you or be letting by gones be bygones for years so you would drop your guard, and then when the time was right for them they would strike.
My personal opinion after following all those blogs etc. is that a true sociopath or psychopath never forgives or forgets. And if you are actually with a true socio or psycho and not just a person who has some of the traits, you will NOT be allowed to win over them without some form of retribution at some point in the future if there is anyway possible for them to get retribution (like they aren’t in jail for example) . I feel the real mccoy is so dangerous that my attitude is now like that researcher in Hare’s Without Conscience who pissed that psychopath off and then was so scared he left the country and refused to come back to the country.
Instead of hanging round fighting with them over “stuff”, I say (for me anyway and it was the only thing that worked even though he still hasn;t given up) is run like hell and get as far away from them as you can to make it as difficult as you can for them to mess with you. But hey, I’m chicken like that now after my experience. The one I was with told me (and not in anger but in absolute icy calmness) that he would was going to bring me down and destroy me, that he would not rest, until he had broken me both emotionally and financially– then he set about trying to do just that and he did quite a bit of damage before I jumped ship and left the state. Then he reversed tactics and reeled me back in (talk about me being dumb) for a brief period but after a brief and glorious reunion it became obvious (even to dumb-at the time– in denial me) that all he wanted was to get assess to me so he could set about doing the above and he was setting about doing his dmanage all over again.
I have not seen or spoken to him in 17 months and no longer even live in the same state (btw, I have on tape where he left a voicemail when I moved telling me he succeeded in running me out of state and that he won. He actually says, “I won!” and LAUGHS. But anyway, he STILL periodically tries to reach and manipulate from afar. So, to my dying day, OR his dying day, regardless if he is married or seems to be otherwise occupied, I will never ever have an attitude of well, it has been xxxx number of years now so he has forgotten all about me and I am safe. I live my life (and it is good now), but I am still mindful of the fact he is and will always be a potential danger to me. My only real regret at the moment is that he does know the location of my house, due to that brief period where he reeled me back in. Not the brightest thing I did, but perhaps if the economy improves I will sell this place and move to another house. That is just how dangerous I think a psychopath is and will continue to be.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:05pm
OxDrover says:
I agree with you on the danger, Jen, both my P-sperm donor and my P-son are/were extremely dangerous and NEVER forgot an N-injury, both ARE text-book psychopaths, but also a 10 on a scale of 1-10 in Narcissistic traits.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:19pm
henry says:
Jen – Never let your gaurd down with your X, you described someone I know too a T..He made threats and pleaded for forgiveness in the same breath. Have not seen the monster in a year and a half but I am always watching my back – the gift of fear is real. I hope he is history, I am sure he is, but if he get’s down and out and desperate he knows where I am. I lived in fear when he was with me, I dont want to stir up a hornets nest by antagonizing him and if he thinks he won (your X) power to him….also when my N mom went into a nursing home and could no longer drive or walk I felt a great sense of relief – she was capable of murder and had threatened me many times over the years…….if I had listened to my fears and gut feelings with these people from the beginning instead of giving them the benifit of the doubt I would …oh well hindsight is 20 – 20
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:28pm
ANewLily says:
Jen2008, I am in complete agreement with your statement, “My personal opinion after following all those blogs etc. is that a true sociopath or psychopath never forgives or forgets.”
I now live 1800 miles away and I know I will be living as you describe for the rest of my life. He, too, vowed to destroy me — and financially, he has almost succeeded.
IF the economy turns around, I MAY be able to salvage some of my financial assets that I still have. — but I’ll never let him know!!
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:30pm
witsend says:
Did anyone happen to see Oprah yesterday? It was a rerun but I watched it again because it was a good show the first time.
2 women both victims, both involved murder, one her husband and the other her father. One was a victum of domestic abuse and one was a victum of sexual abuse. BOTH of them were being “judged” by both the audience and Oprah herself. And I would imagine most everyone watching the show.
Oprah was “kinder” to the woman who murdered her father because she herself has been molested. You could tell that she “doesn’t get it” when it came to the other woman who was involved in the domestic abuse. Because of course the big question is always “why didn’t you leave?”
The general thought pattern of most people never involved in such a relationship is judgemental because they don’t understand the dynamics that go on in realtionships with an S/P/N.
ALOT has to happen emotionally/mentally between 2 people before the battered wife enters the emergency room and is bruised from head to toe, (obviously from a beating) yet claims “I fell down the stairs.”
What is MISSING from all of the shows that air on TV is the AWARENESS of the general public of what really happens to victims of such relationships.
Because LF is a place where people do “get it” because many have been walking in shoes very similar to many of these victims, maybe it would be also a place to have a “list” not only to spot the potential S/P/N and the critera they fall into but also a “list” better explaining (to the general public) how it is to be a victim of such a preditor.
My humble opinion is that the general public “gets it” that their are bad people out there…..They see enough of that on the news everyday. However they haven’t a clue on what transpires between the “preditor” and how he/she lures and then “holds” onto emotionally/mentally the victim & continues to abuse them.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 2:58pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
There are many books written about psychopaths, narcissists and other personality disordered people and unfortunately, even th e professionals don’t agree on the name(s) for the problems or if there is treatment for such a disorder(s).
The media doesn’t get it either, to the media, for the most part. a “psychopath” is the same as Ted Bundy, Charlie Manson etc. not the hateful physician or minister who lives next door, or even the sexual pervert who targets young children. Unless the person is a sexual saddist or a mass murderer he/she is not rated as a psychopath.
Most Judges (who are basically just attorneys) don’t get it, and too many attorneys themselves are psychopaths because this along with other “power” jobs like police officer, are target jobs for people with control and power issues. Many therapists don’t get it either, and one therapist asked a friend of mine who was with a violent psychopath asked my friend “Have you tried TALKING TO HIM?” DUH!!!!!
If our own family and friends don’t get it, how can we educate the public except slowly, one person at a time, as the chance arises. Most people who are NOT former victims of Ps would not be interested in reading LF, and even many who HAVE BEEN victims, aren’t wanting to ‘get it either.” This all makes me shake my head sadly at the cost of ignorance of this subject.
Yes, EVERYONE needs to know about psychopaths, but sometimes people respond to education about psychopaths with either a “ho-hum, not interested, it couldn’t happen to me” or with the look on their face like you tried to tell them that “the aliens are coming in a space ship to take us all to heaven.”
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 3:25pm
ANewLily says:
Oxy and Witsend, just how many people would ever pick up a book about psychopaths or narcissists to read. Not many, I’d wager.
After all, me, a voracious reader, didn’t seek out any information about such disorders until I went on the internet to try to find out what was wrong with ME because my spouse who “said” he loved me, obviously didn’t.
What a surprise it was to learn it didn’t have anything to do with me!
But, my point is that educating the public is going to be very very very difficult. Someone mentioned it would be a good course to teach in high schools across the nation, but who would the teachers be? They’d have to be people who had already experienced the trauma and gotten out.
When I first “got out” my counselors told me to tell everyone who would listen about my experiences. I did and although it did help me heal (because I mostly told strangers) I doubt if I enlightened anyone!
I don’t tell anyone any more!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 4:10pm
witsend says:
NewLily
My point was more that we see these “prime time” shows ALL the time on TV.
The show on the other night was all about a guy who was a con artist and date raped the women he came in contact with.
Although the show did prtray him to be the “bad guy” (naturally they didn’t label him an s/p/n) it ALSO PORTRAYED the women to look kind of “foolish” for the contact they had with him. The questions ALWAYS went back to the women. Why did you do this? Why did you do that?
I believe the “viewers” came away from the show “scratching their heads” WONDERING what was wrong with the women that got involved with him? INSTEAD of understanding it better.
In other words this show (OR any show like it, like the Oprah show I was talking about) never really gets the POINT across to the viewers what it is LIKE to be the victim. How cunning and baffling these people are to lure you in and keep you there.
It reminded me of that movie so long ago with Jodie Foster. When she was raped and how the system raped her AGAIN. This happens to victims ALL the time.
Books about S/P/N are not read by the general public necessarily. There is a total misunderstanding out there of this type of preditor. I am not even talking about the general public understanding of the preditors themselves.
I think what needs to happen in GENERAL is that the general public need to understand more of the VICTIM mantality…..All victims. Rape, domestic abuse, con artist, sexual molestors, S/P/N targeted victims, etc.
If more programing was done on this and enlightened people to understand what it is to be victimized and HOW it happens, think about it…..In every jury trial, if just a handful of the jurors were enlightened/empathetic/understanding of the victim mantality…..Small changes might begin to happen.
That was my point I was trying to make….
Its to easy for people (without that UNDERSTANDING) to judge the victims. And that just makes it WORSE for the victim….
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 4:39pm
Tilly says:
Elizabeth Conley:
“Sadly, no. My encounters with cluster B personality disorders have been very, very limited. People like Steve have much more experience to draw from”. I DON”T THINK SO!!! lol!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:15pm
Tilly says:
Elizabeth Conley:
“noticed that the sociopath tends to base his high self image on his proficiency in skills the rest of us don’t value. He’s usually very proud of his ability to manipulate people and steal from “normals”.
All of the outward appearances the narcissist exhibits, the psychopath will too. I.E. To exploit, to gain, to kill, to injure, to whatever.
The whole “self esteem thing” is a tool, a strategy, to get what they want.
It is neither here nor there in the murderous, devastating. destructive intent of the narcissist or the psychopath.
Bundy went to his grave saying that he had a wonderful loving upbringing by a kind and generous Christian family. In his death speech, he “BLAMED PORNOGRAPHY” for everything he did. Why do you think he did that?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:24pm
OxDrover says:
I agree that victims are RE-victimized by the courts, defense attorneys etc. Many child molestation cases are not even prosecuted because of the potential trauma to YOUNG victims. dr. anna Salter PhD notes that YOUNG children are often targeted because they make such poor witnesses.
The “why didn’t you just leave” question is all too often the “proof” that a woman “wanted to be a victm”—I remember when Patty Hearst, who had been kidnapped, was arrested after her participation in the bank robbery, and even though there was a great deal of publicity at the trial for her Stockholm Syndrome, which I have NO DOUBT that poor woman suffered, she was none-the-less sent to PRISON. I HEARD THE TERM “STOCKHOLM SYNDROME” FOR THE FIRST TIME at the news coverage of her trial.
When Elizabeth Smart was recovered, after a time when she was noted to have had a CHANCE to escape and had not taken it, Stockholm Syndrome was again featured, but still 99.9% of the public (I made up that “statistic”) in my opinion still doesn’t have a CLUE what it is to be a victim or to be trauma bonded to your abuser.
There is also the cases where BOTH parties are personality disordered and it is difficult to determine who is the victim and who is the abuser since the roles change from day to day. the “two PD” relationships are definitely GASOLINE AND FIRE relationships where murder and mayhem frequently reign. It gives victims a “bad name.”
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:28pm
Tilly says:
Elizabeth Conley: What you translate as “shame and anxiety etc.” of the Narcissist is a load of crap. The Narcissist has fear of being caught/found out, because they are not as experienced in crime as the psychopath. There is absolutely no such thing as a a Narcissist with “shame” ! You are still in denial about your experience with your N! He conned you..u are still buying his “shame” and “depression” act. He was fearful of being caught. Caught for all the things you never found out. Think about it.Thats it. Nothing else.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:32pm
Tilly says:
I have been “bitten” by narcissists just as often as psychopaths, and believe you me, their bites are just as painful, deadly and lethal. I hope I can save someone’s life here today by NOT letting them believe that a Narcissist is a:
“immature, childish little boy/girl who, on a scale of inflicting pain is only a “one”, and who , poor thing, has immense shame and low self esteem and guilt and anxiety and so we really need to understand them, poor things and be softer on them”. So, Lets just for fun, call the “Narcissiopath”, because really, they wont hurt us….MUCH.”
Thats the worst thing I have ever heard of on this site. You are sailing up the river NILE (denial) big time, and to advocate that a narcissist is any one of those things is dangerous in the extreme. I won’t be a part of it. Not ever!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:45pm
Tilly says:
Where I live we have deadly King Brown snakes (they are not all the color brown, they can be a variety of colours), they will kill an adult in minutes without anti venom. King browns are known to attack without prompting. We have tiger snakes that are even worse, we have red belly black snakes that are everywhere and can kill a child in minutes wthout anti venom and their are many more deadly snakes in Australia and all of them give shocking pain until you are dead. We have funnel webs spiders in summer, so that you always have to check your shoes before you put them on. When I was a child underneath our house was infested with them. Everyone in the street had the “funnel web man” come and spray twice a year. A pregnant woman was shaking out a sheet she had brought in from the clothes line and the funnel web spider bit her over thirty times. I sprayed half a full can of spider spray on a female funnel web spider and put a jar over the top of it, it was still alive days later. If you tap a funnel webs funnel, it will run out to attack you and stay frozen with its pincers out waiting to attack .Everyone has to check the wheely bin (garbage bin) under the handles in summer because of red back spiders EVERYWHERE, they don’t kill adults (only children), but their pain is one of the worst known to mankind and they sometimes leave life long problems where they bite.
We have stonefish,(looks like a lovely stone on the reef), crocodiles, stingers , a multitude of shark and lets not forget the blue ringed octopus the most potent killer of all, all just a few hours drive north of here in summer. They are all deadly.
I would rather meet up with any of them than a psychopath or a narcissist.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:09pm
Tilly says:
Steve:
What do you mean “flesh out the concept of a Narcissiopath in the future”? If that is “stringin em up and literally fleshin em out for our pig farm”…I’m all for it!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:14pm
Tilly says:
Elizabeth Conley says, “Mind you, I feel very sorry for Narcissists”,
Elizabeth if you sincerely feel this then you are a walking target.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:25pm
Tilly says:
Swallow:
“You can hate me – but don’t forget me”. These are not the words of a “narcissssisssisoooopaaatth”. They are the words of a deadly narcissist. Make no mistake. Narcciissisisisisopath is a word just to catch you off guard. Narcissist’s mean every horrible thing they say.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:28pm
OxDrover says:
TILLY!!!!
BOINK!!!! DOWN, GIRL!!!! Keep in mind EC is one of the “good guys” and while I don’t always agree with everything she says (and I bett’ya she doesn’t agree with everything I say either!)
One definition of an N says “SHALLOW EMOTIONS: This person expresses and experiences FEW EMOTIONS, usually only Anger and fear. Sghe has words for feelings, but these are empty.”
I have found other “definitions” though that state that the Narcissist is “like a small child in emotions” (and boy do we all know what a two year old is like!!!!”)
There ARE VARIOUS PROFESSIONALS that disagree about all the “definitions” of Ns and Ps, etc. and heck, they can’t even agree on the NAMES FOR THE DISORDERS!!!
I think we (victims) can all AGREE though, that whether they are Ns or Ps or “Blue Devil Fish” or whatever you want to call them, nnone of them are people we want in our lives.
Tilly I am sorry that you have so many bad criitters there, we have a few here ourselves with 2-3 kinds of poison snakes, 2 kinds of poison spiders, the rare scorpion, ticks, mosquitoes, gnats etc. but nothing like all you named and most of the time the critters aren’t bothersome even here out in the boonies. When I was in Sout6h africa we had to shake our shoes out each morning (so when we were in camp, I just slept in mine) and had to watch for cobras and black mambas, carnivores and poachers as well. I’m like you, at least when you see a snake that is dangerous, you can recognize it and cut off its head, the law won’t let you do that with psychopaths! DARN IT!!! LOL (((hugs))))
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:47pm
ANewLily says:
Elizabeth Conley, I hope you didn’t really mean, that you feel very sorry for Narcissists. If you did mean it, I agree with Tilly who said, “Elizabeth if you sincerely feel this then you are a walking target.”
I felt sorry for my EX, got trapped, and got duped out of most of my adult life!!!!!!!!! Finally having to flee from him to save my very life — what was left of it!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:33pm
ANewLily says:
Witsend, I really did get your point regarding what we see on these “prime time” shows on TV. Being housebound for months I have seen enough of them — and they just make me sicker!
I guess I was just jumping ahead with why it is going to be such an uphill battle, as someone else said, to educate the public.
Sorry if I didn’t make that clear. Really sorry!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:42pm
ANewLily says:
Tilly, I personally like the new term, Narcissiopath, because it does combine narcissists and sociopaths(pychopath) which my Evil Monster definitly was — and has continued to not let a divorce deter him from forgetting me and his deep anger at me for escaping from him!
Frankly, I believe I have finally reached the point that I am going to refer to him as an “empty suit” and be done with it.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:50pm
ANewLily says:
For the record, in case anyone cares LOL, I never did “label” my former spouse of so many years myself. When several of my counselors during the first 3 years gave him those same labels I had to finally accept it, actually with relief because it did make sense of nonsense. One called him “evil” and that blew me away for several weeks before I could internalize and accept it. It was easier when my CPA who did my first taxes after getting “out” said, “I don’t even consider him a man!”
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:57pm
henry says:
I have used the term narcospath many times, guess it really doesnt matter what they are as long as the are X.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:05pm
henry says:
X as in gone..
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:07pm
ANewLily says:
Henry, I agree. Except mine isn’t completely GONE yet even though he is definitely EX.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:18pm
henry says:
Like I told Jen – never let your gaurd down – they may be gone and X this or X that but we are always on their list of options – I just hope I stay way down on the bottom of his list.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:28pm
Tilly says:
As long as EC feels sorry for Narcissists she is vulnerable. I know, because everytime, without fail, that a narcissist got me in, I “knew” they were a narcissist and I felt sorry for them. BONK YOU BACK WITH MY BOOMERANG OXY!! I am speaking from EC’s point of view because I viewed them EXACTLY THE SAME, and I was all but killed (might as well have been), because of this VIEW. So I don’t care about your boinking me because I may be saving EC’s life.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 9:14pm
housie says:
At this point, I really don’t care what one calls them. My energy is being used on my OWN recovery and new life.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 9:54pm
henry says:
A standing ovation for Housie!
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 10:12pm
ANewLily says:
Housie, how I admire you for getting this far in your recovery. Congratulations and big hugs!
about two years ago, I was recovering quite well, too, except for the ongoing grief of no contact (on their part) of my adult children – victims of parental alienation.
Now that the 2nd daughter of 3 (and of 4 children) has been contacting me, the “empty suit” has stepped up his persecution of me!! I feel like i’M CRUMBLING!
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 10:35pm
theotherbed says:
I’m with Housie on this one. I’ve been almost 4wks NC (95%), and reached a point where I had no interest WHAT his problem is, (he’s been called both an N and a P), or WHAT you call it. I just want to focus on my life, and my recovery, moving from all about him to all about me.
All fine and good and true and hopeful…but what am I doing on this site, late at night on a Friday night?! Yikes! I feel like I got pulled back in, without even thinking about it. Why did I end up here instead of well, anywhere else?! Back to focusing on myself, or what’s left of it…
But thanks for the informative post and the hybrid definition.
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 11:48pm
alohatraveler says:
Good one Steve! You do have a way with words! I love your articles!
Aloha
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Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 11:55pm
Tilly says:
I apologise to you Steve, Henry EC and everyone. I have been thinking about it all day and reading all your comments. You are all definitely right. My ex boyfriend narcissist really was just depressed, guilty and ashamed of himself that he and his friends had treated me so bad in front of everyone. I feel really sorry for him too now. You are right. I am ringing him up and asking him to take me back. I know he will. This whole thing of being on your own sucks.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:02am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tilly, why would you want a depressed, guilty and ashamed boyfriend? Seems like that’s someone you’d feel sorry for — preferably from a distance — rather than want around.
Hard as it might be to imagine, I feel sorry for my ex. He’s an emotional cripple. A dangerous emotional cripple who is half the man he might have been, and unfortunately the wrong half, for the most part.
You can feel sorry for someone without being in the least tempted to have something to do with them. Pity is not exactly the first step to falling in love, and being able to feel it certainly doesn’t make me a target. It makes me able to the very large gap between someone like him and someone like me.
Kathy
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:37am
Tilly says:
Yeah, your right, you and I are too different for you to ever understand.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 2:15am
Tilly says:
Chow Baby
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 2:15am
blueskies says:
The feeling sorry for the narc debate.
I think Jen raises an important point when she says:(sorry it’s a big chunk of text I am quoting here):
” From the socio blogs/forums I used to follow, the one thing most of them seemed to have in common was a great capacity to have you be out of sight/out of mind (so no they didn’t sit around and obsess over you until they could get revenge if they felt you wronged them in some way), BUT they still tried to get revenge when an opportunity presented itself, even many years later. Many of them said they could patiently wait years and years to seek revenge (and one forum actually had a thread started about the revenge subject), yet they could carry on with their life not really giving you any thought, pretty much like you did not exist for them most of the time unless they were in the mood for you to exist for them, until the time was right. But they never EVER forgot being wronged by you (in their mind) no matter how many years passed.”
I personally dont believe that the S/P I was involved with expends any energy day to day on thoughts of me , I am an old candy wrapper and i want to keep it that way, BUT I DO believe if given so much as a chink of opportunity how ever long down the line the snake would strike. Not necessarily out of revenge but because it is in his nature to do so.
As kathy says, feeling sorry for or having empathy for the snake does not automatically mean that you are going to pick it up and stroke it and take it to bed with you.
I DID that, and each time I got bitten. And each time I fell back into it out of pity, he got faster at biting me. I had to separate the pity I felt and my response to it.
I think the lesson here is a cognitive one for all of us, sympathy and empathy for the devil should not ever be a begining to or a reason for a relationship with him.
It could be a much stronger stand point to be able to feel my natural empathy, and STILL protect myself.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 3:44am
swallow says:
I agree with Jen 2008. A Psychopath never forgets and always want revenge.
Looking back on conversations I had with mine, he never forgot people who has ‘wronged’ him but was very confident and patient about getting his own back. I think that that is one of the reasons for my slow recovery – I was and am scared that one day he will sneak up on me and either try to hook me back in again or something worse as punishment for having the audacity to walk away. I say this even though I am happily back with my husband as he doesn’t seem to be afraid of anything and has stalked me in the past.
Many of my friends think that I am paranoid but I sure most of you on here know otherwise.
We should never underestimate them.
Swallow
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:42am
Escapee says:
Tilly
Boy girl – you pack a punch – say it like it is! You really make me laugh – am I the only one who got the ‘irony’ in your post of 1.02 am?
But seriously, I admire your stand and, you’re right about ever feeling sorry for them because they feel ashamed and guilty – they might portray that because they think it’s going to ‘keep you where they want you’ but they don’t actually ‘FEEL’ it – I too got duped into this too many times that pulled me right back in there to take more abuse, once the dust had settled.
Keep keeping us all strong Tilly.
All love E x
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 7:27am
Rosa says:
Escapee:
Hell NO. You are NOT the only one who caught the sarcasm in Tilly’s post @ 1:02 a.m.
That is Classic Tilly.
I get you, Tilly!!! LOUD & CLEAR!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:29am
blueskies says:
I assumed it to be sarcasm! From what I’ve read Miss Tilly fantastico write I didnt suppose for a minute it would be anything else.x
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:31am
henry says:
Tilly Tilly Tilly – Ain’t no way you would ring him up…I dont feel sorry for my X – I did feel pity for 3 years, pity is the main reason it lasted 3 years,,sorry? nope, not after I realized pity was his tool…….btw your welcome Steve B
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:34am
blueskies says:
I just want to clarify, I am not suggesting everyone should pity the slime balls from hell and think oh poor him he cant help i poor baby, come here and i’ll make it all better… noooo! no way!but I have found that yes I CAN shake my head and sigh at the dark and turmoil he will forever live in without wanting to dash in and try and save him… Its a big thing for me. An Ah-ha moment. I am naturally empathetic,YES, yes I AM (I am having empathy pride!) but it doesnt mean I have throw myself into the fray …
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:48am
blueskies says:
it not ‘i’.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:48am
Tood says:
While I agree that bad people on the narcissist/sociopath/psychopath continuum are pitiable in an abstract sense, count me as another with absolutely no pity for them as individuals. Any higher level emotion directed their way DOES make us vulnerable.
I leave them to God alone. It’s not my job to love them, forgive them, work to understand them, pity them, or care about them in any way. All I care about is whether or not I can RECOGNIZE them. Others are welcome to find their own peace when it comes to the disordered, but as for me, I choose complete indifference. No contact, not even in my prayers.
One of the most valuable lessons I learned during my recovery is that it is a spiritual process. At least it was for me. And with all due respect to Kathleen and others who truly believe that we can forgive the perpetrators, I am thankful that I have never gotten to forgiveness of the man who molested my children. Yes, I know that “forgiveness is for us, not them.” But truly, my heart is peaceful and my conscience is clear. The energy I once would have directed toward “forgiving” these sorts of monsters (even if it is only mental or spiritual energy) I now expend in better ways. I do my best to help my children recover. I do my best in my real, meatspace life to help other victims and potential victims. (And there’s no shortage of them…I live in a prison town. You wouldn’t believe the number of women who marry inmates and hang around prisons!)
My view of this question is still developing, and quite hard for me to explain at this point. I was forced by develop a kind of rudimentary “Christ consciousness,” in that I had to accept how misunderstood I was likely to be and how vilified I was likely to be, and how I would have to accept a degree of lifelong suffering because I, too, had met my own personal Satan while I wandered in the wilderness. The P experience is my own personal cross to bear. It marks me, and it will mark me until the day I die.
I had to accept that my own personal Satan had tempted me. I had to accept that in some temptations I was victorious and in others I was not. I did not emerge sinless, but I did emerge alive and capable of love, and that counts for something. I forgive only those people who ASK for forgiveness and who CHANGE THEIR WAYS.
Before, in the old life, I believed that in order to be a good person, I had to forgive, and believe in the possibility of redemption for everyone. Today, I believe that it is NOT MY JOB to forgive, and work toward the redemption of the irredeemable. I leave that to God alone. And I’m quite content to do that. I let go of my “Christ complex” and embraced my “Christ consciousness.” It’s a fine distinction (and perhaps one that exists only in my head), but it’s one of the big realizations that helped me survive the experience.
Because once upon a time, my self-image included a view of myself as a loving, forgiving, benefit-of-the-doubt, where-there’s-life-there’s-hope sort of gal. A do-gooder. A long-sufferer. That gal had her personality shattered by a full-on psychopath. That gal’s children were raped and molested. That gal barely got out with her sanity and life intact.
To get over a sociopath, become a sociopath, to quoth our resident attorney. And to STAY recovered, I say STAY hard-hearted, at least in their direction. To those who believe otherwise, I say “Good luck!” and “I’ll see you back here once you too have been mangled and discarded. Again.”
Psychos don’t forget, ever. And believe me, if they know you have their number, you’re THE ENEMY. My mother carried in her purse for years and years a note my father wrote to her upon the occasion of her (finally!) filing for divorce. In the psycho’s tiny, cramped handwriting, here is what it said (and yes, 40 years after his death I can still remember it):
“I will hunt you down and kill you no matter where you go. I will kill (Tood). I will kill (your father and your mother). When I am finished with them, I will kill (your cousins) and (your aunts and uncles). You think about that the next time you see your lawyer.”
Complete and total disengagement, for me, is the only way to go. And if the P can’t be avoided, then a complete and total willingness to match threat for threat. No emotion where they are concerned, none.
And as far as the naming goes, and where to draw a line between one disorder and the next, I leave that to the experts. Good luck to anyone who enters that particular hall of mirrors. To me, the debate over DSM criteria is as abstract as medieval scholars arguing over the number of angels on the old head of the pin.
After years of reading on the subject, I’m as confused as the next person. Narcissists, of the three types, are the only ones who can change, as I understand it. Sociopaths had a conscience once, but had it killed off by circumstance or choice. Psychopaths never had a conscience to begin with. All three types are dangerous, and the higher you go on the scale the more danger there is. Call them N/S/P or call them Moe, Larry and Curly, the wreckage they cause is still the same.
P.S. I love this place…we can agree to disagree and still engage one another on so many levels. Big vibes-o-love to all. Except the lurking psychos. Ha!
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:55am
Kathleen Hawk says:
I got Tilly’s sarcasm too. But I also think, as blueskies points out, that there is a cognitive issue here. Or maybe one of social training.
Feeling sorry for anyone does not equate with having to rescue them. This is one of the things that I had to learn, or unlearn, in my recovery. That just because someone is in my space doing a pity ploy doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with me. If I want to get involved, it’s my choice. But it requires the same kind of personal risk analysis as well as considering of what good I’ll get out of it as anything else does.
Those are the “me” considerations. There’s also a separate consideration about what they’re going to get out of it.
One of the things I had to face was that all the rescuing I’ve done in my life probably didn’t do most of those people a lot of good. Because it was largely enabling their dysfunctional behavior, not (as I imagined) changing their lives.
I heard a really funny story last night from an old friend, who had gone out of her way to help me get a new client who would provide me with a big monthly retainer. She did this because, at the time when I was deeply involved with my ex-S, she was worried that he was going to bankrupt me. So what did I do with that additional income? I used it to pay for a second home in the Hollywood Hills, so the little monster could break into Hollywood. Which of course, he didn’t do. He abandoned me there, after 9/11 destroyed my income stream. And I lost both my California and New York homes. And all that money was lost, as well as virtually everything else, including my company, that I’d built.
As we were talking, she asked if I thought it would have made a difference if she hadn’t tried to help? Would I have bottomed out faster and gotten out of the relationship? No probably not. I actually got involved with “helping” him for two more horrible, quasi-romantic, ego-destroying chapters, before I finally threw him out of my life. I wasn’t going to leave this thing until I was so sick and so suicidal that it become a life-or-death thing.
So she probably didn’t do any damage, but she didn’t help either. Everything she invested in helping me — and it was considerable — was just lost in the wind.
It’s really hard to just stand back and let people live through their dysfunctional dramas, especially when we know them and care about them. Which is arguably the case when we’re involved with sociopaths and narcissists, which are clearly highly dysfunctional people. But the fact that they can hook us at all on pity ploys means, to me at least, that we’re not seriously considering the option of just letting them reap what they sow.
It doesn’t make us bad people to let other people suffer. I know that sounds strange, but the fact that someone is suffering may be part of their learning process. Of course, this is not always true. But it’s true often enough that I have established some rules for myself about who I rescue, why I rescue and how I do it. And they pretty much apply to everyone.
First, the only time I get involved is when I see someone making a great effort to change personally or change their circumstances. They’re taking responsibility for their own thinking and their own results, but for some reason, they just don’t have quite enough resources to pull it off. (This is why I invest money in Kiva, a microbank lending facility to entrepreneurs in third-world countries.)
Second, if I do it, I negotiate what I will get in return and on what schedule. And if the person doesn’t fulfill that commitment, I write it off and wash my hands of them. Immediately. (Obviously I don’t offer more help than I can afford to lose.)
Third, I accept the fact that, by making another person dependent on me in any way, even temporarily, it probably kills the potential for a future friendship (and certainly anything more). Peer relationships are not built on dependencies. In the very rare instance that the other person finds that whatever I’ve given is the final puzzle piece in building a level of independence that makes us peers, I celebrate it. But the fact that our relationship once involved my help can create an obstacle between us if the person continues to feel indebted. It’s a one-up/one-down thing that can create unhealthy power dynamics between us.
Fourth, I work on cultivating in myself a sense of gratitude, rather than a sense of debt. On the occasions I do get involved, it is a privilege to become involved in another person’s life in such a material sense. However it comes out, I’ll learn something from it. Gratitude opens my heart to allowing them to be whoever they are, living their own dramas and following their own path. So I don’t feel like I’ve lost anything compared to what I gained. And on the flip side, the only chance we may have for a future friendship is if, once they have paid back their obligation to me, they feel gratitude as well. That way, we are glad we found and got to know each other.
I’m adding all this, because I want to say what I done to replace my former sense that I was obligated to help anyone I felt sorry for. I’m not. I feel sorry for a lot of people, including some people I love, but in most of these cases, I take a hands-off position, beyond being a compassionate companion. I can feel for them, without trying to fix them or their lives.
In my mind, this is an optimistic position. I believe they’ll sort it out in their own way and time. It is also a position of self-management. I know what my resources are, and I cannot afford to get involved in certain situations.
And Tilly, I wasn’t trying to be unfriendly. I know you’ve been through a lot, and I want to cheer when I see you speaking out for yourself and against abuse.
Kathy
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:27am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Tilly,
“You are right. I am ringing him up and asking him to take me back. I know he will. This whole thing of being on your own sucks.”
Get a grip girl. Feeling sorry for him is one thing, taking him back is another. Feel sorry from a distance.
Remember, I avoid the narcissist MORE assiduously than I avoid the sociopath. The narcissist makes himself ill with his messy emotions, AND he acts out in ridiculous ways. The best way to simultaneously help the narcissist and yourself is to get away and stay away.
Let’s put this another way: I rescue wild animals when I can. I have found that treating their injuries can be very difficult, because they experience so much distress when I’m close to them. There’s one thing they can do which tends to calm them down and stop their struggles; I can permit them to bite down on my arm or hand and not let go. Needless to say, I must be wearing very heavy clothing or gauntlets for this to work. After their injuries are treated, I care for them minimally, with little or no contact. When it’s time to free them, they leave without a backward glance. They still hate and fear me, and that’s A OK. That’s the way it’s supposed to be.
Narcissists are lot like the injured wild animals, in that the narcissists’ emotions are in an uproar when they’re in close proximity with the people they are in conflict with. In these situations, their compulsion to attack is overwhelming. The best thing for the narcissist and a person they’ve chosen to attack is distance.
Mind you, I enjoy sighting animals I’ve cared for in the past, and am happy to see that they still retain a healthy fear of me. I don’t pity them, I rejoice in the way they have retained their natural instincts. I do pity the narcissist, because I think his/her rage and fear are dysfunctional, not natural. It’s a sad thing, but it certainly doesn’t cause me to want to get closer. Getting close to a narcissist is a lose-lose proposition.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 12:14pm
blueskies says:
Tood, I loved your post x
Pity and forgiveness to me are separate things.I pity the fool (to quote Mr.T chuckle;) who lives his life in darkness unable to sustain himself without sucking the light and life out of everything he comes into contact with, never comprehending real love, real peace, real happiness, and with no chance of ever doing so… but the day I FORGIVE him for what he put me through is the day hell freezes over. x
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 12:18pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
P.S. In my case, the narcissist’s personal history is absolutely heart-rending. I do not share his personal history on this forum, because I think that would be a heartless invasion of privacy. If I was cold-bloodedly evil, and wanted to damn a person, I would raise that person from infancy the way the narcissist was raised.
His childhood is a textbook study in how environmental factors can deprive a person of their sanity before they’re old enough to be responsible for their choices or circumstances.
Sometimes evil occurs, and the consequences endure for an incalculably long time.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 12:20pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tood,
I read your post, and I know that it makes what I talk about seem like New Age baloney. But everything I talk about is about how I’ve rearranged my inner life around this thing. Just as you’ve done.
I was lucky, in that I could isolate myself and just heal. I wasn’t able to isolate myself entirely. After I got rid of my ex, I realized I was working for someone at least as bad as him. And I had to get rid of him and live with losing the majority of my income. And then I rented the cottage on my property to people who started having underage drinking festivals two or three times a week, and had to deal with that. And when I got rid of them, the next tenant burned it down. All of this in the early stages of my recovery. And the list goes on.
But I didn’t have to deal with what you deal with on a daily basis. The painful reminders and repercussions. The hard work with people you love to help them heal, as well as the work you do with other survivors. Compared to you, I had the luxury of finding a cave to meditate in for a few years.
But I do want to make it clear that both my practices of compassion and forgiving have nothing to do with enabling or supporting people with aggressive personality disorders. On the matter of forgiving, in particular, I’m almost sorry sometimes that I wrote that article. Because the word itself seems to be such a trigger. People read things into it that I never wrote or suggested.
Forgiving, as I see it, is something we do for ourselves, as a kind of mental housecleaning, when we’re ready to stop giving the past so much energy. It is not about accepting or condoning. It’s not even about compassion. It’s just a personal decision to stop focusing on the unchangeable past. We do it when we feel pretty comfortable with what we’ve learned and our future ability to take care of ourselves. (Which does not mean forgetting either — just taking the lessons and moving on.)
And I don’t know if anyone who lives with constant reminders or recurring painful situations can do that.
I don’t think you and I are different in our ultimate viewpoints about what to do with these dangerous people. I leave them to their own karma, while never forgetting what I learned about self-care (including self-defense). I think it’s a dangerous self-indulgence to assume that the world is always benevolent or that my good intentions will always attract the same. But at the same time, there is a lot that is good, true and beautiful in the world, even in the worst situations.
Sometimes it takes a lot of healing and a lot of self-work to see what that is. But I’m determined to do that, because I believe that we are not meant to live in fear and anger. Those are healthy, logical responses to trauma, and not to be discounted. But they’re not the “norm” of our lives.
I’m sorry you have been through so much. And I deeply respect what you are doing for your children. There was no one to help me in similar circumstances, and I think my life would have been much different if there had been. These challenges we face are so huge. But I believe that the healing work we do literally changes the world. I’m not sure how that works, but I believe in it.
Kathy
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 12:27pm
ANewLily says:
Escapee, Rosa, blue skies, and even Henry, I was another one who saw through Tilly’s 1:02 a.m “speech.” If one knows Tilly and her story, no one could ever believe she meant it!
Tood, I really appreciated your essay this morning, especially when you wrote, “The P experience is my own personal cross to bear. It marks me, and it will mark me until the day I die.”
My spirit rang true with yours as I read what you wrote.
Above I wrote that I was “crumbling.” Why? Because even after 7 years, my Empty Suit still hasn’t forgotten his hatred of me for escaping from him.
I have a state of the art security system on my house but the past two days STRANGE things have been happening to try to frighten me — and I KNOW by whom!
This morning I found out that he and his live-in girlfriend (who I had hoped would get his mind off of me) were in my city for a conference. (My city is 1800 miles away from theirs)
All made sense, so Tood your essay was just the kind of reminder I needed this morning to get me back on track.
Thank you! Thankyou! Thank you!
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:20pm
ANewLily says:
Elizabeth C, my “empty suit” who trapped me (via my pity) at age 19 had an “absolutely heart-rending” personal history, too.
It didn’t take long for the Stockhom syndrome to take effect and as a result I lost almost my entire adult life before I could escape.
I probably have more fear of feelings of pity (mine or others’) than anything else due to my experiences. Christ sorrowed over others but HE didn’t pity them!
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:30pm
Tood says:
ANewLily,
You don’t know how much it helps me to know that I might have helped someone, somewhere. They never really go away until they’re six feet under, do they? But having dealt with them does give us the opportunity to become stronger, better people. Keeps us on our toes. Keeps us awake.
(If I hadn’t had the father I had, I would not have been equipped to recognize and deal with my husband, once the mask came off. Knowing–in an instant–who my opponent was probably saved my life. It certainly helped me shut off my emotions and deal with the immediate threats he presented. And once I threw him out, my lifelong P experience helped me win in the battle for assets.)
Keep trusting your instincts and stay safe. Our stories seem so unreal, and yet they are real. I don’t know how you feel about firearms, but this old country girl recommends them highly.
And Kathleen,
I too believe you and I are traveling on, while not quite the same, at least parallel tracks. It doesn’t sound like New Age claptrap to me–it just sounds like you have ahold of a different part of the elephant.
As I mentioned to M.L. Gallagher on another thread, her writing helped me through the dark times. Yours did too, back when you had another name. I’d log on daily and do nothing but read. Your story. Oxy’s story (while she was loading up the RV, even!). Everyone else’s stories. Some days I was clinging to life with just my fingernails. And frankly, your way of looking at things always resonated with me.
I haven’t been able to tell my particular tale of woe for many reasons–chief among them is that the perpetrator got away with his crimes. If I told the facts, he’d sue me. (And that’s pretty much his only way of getting money these days.) Also, there was also the danger that the case would attract publicity and further scar my children. The only good that came from his getting away with his crimes was that my family was spared the particular trauma of notoriety. A similar case to my family’s made the national news, just days after our trial was over.
I’ll say this much: For a good while during my marriage, I worked with my ex to expose and punish child abusers. We were successful in changing laws and seeing criminals locked up. While not famous, we were at least known and respected in our field. All the while–even as he and I would have long, deep talks about the nature of evil, and what could cause such disordered behavior; even as I counted myself among the luckiest of women to have such a good, loving husband, one who understood my problem child and helped me deal with the chaos he caused–he was molesting and raping my two oldest daughters, assisting my P child in various nefarious schemes, and stealing money from us all. Never a hint, never the flicker of guilt across his face. Just Academy Award-level acting, 24/7, with nothing to betray the sick reality. Think of level of evil that would require! Think of the sick satisfaction he must have gotten.
To this day, I believe he murdered an elderly relative to gain control of a quite large estate. He went through over a quarter million dollars in less than a year, all post-divorce, all while the children and I were struggling to keep a roof over our heads. He left his elderly mother to starve to death in her rural home, and only socked her away to die in a nursing home after I made sure she had food and water. He alienated my youngest daughter from me, took her away from me for over a year, and tried to molest her. I still shake my head in amazement at the level of evil that must reside in the shell that he carries around and calls a “self.”
And mere days before the mask originally came off, I was reassuring my youngest daughter that mommy and daddy would never divorce like all the other kids’ parents seemed to do, because mommy and daddy loved each other so much. And I was telling my sons to emulate him, because he was such a good man.
Well, that’s neither here nor there. The people we’ve all dealt with are murderers, con men, molesters, rapists, robbers, and thieves. Our differing perspectives on pity and forgiveness are probably just a matter of semantics. Peace of mind is what we’re after, and I think every day we get a little closer to our goals.
Kathleen, I’d like someday to revisit your views on what you see as our “collaboration” with the psychopaths. This term sets off the bells and whistles with me, because it connotes active participation, active knowledge. And in my case this just wasn’t so. I really and truly, up to the moment of what I call his Big Reveal, had no idea that he was a bad guy. His mask was that good. And his Big Reveal was only a partial reveal. He only peeled off one layer and showed himself to me–the rest came later. If seeing what was under the top layer was enough to prompt me to throw him out and file for divorce, well, you can just imagine how bad some of the others turned out to be.
(And I don’t for a minute pat myself on the back for kicking him out and not taking him back. I understand how others can fall for the slick excuses and crocodile tears. I watched my mother take my father back, over and over, for 18 years. I might have fallen for my ex’s lies, had I not had a P for a father, and recognized the behavior. It took me years to cut off all contact with the ex, even while dealing with the aftermath. It was not until my daughters told me about what he did to them that I was able to finally stop engaging him on any level at all.)
Again, I believe we have similar views. We just differ on semantics.
Elizabeth,
I applaud your willingness to love the unlovable. I want you to know, however, that I have a child that I consider to be a born psychopath. If you were to hear the tale this child tells–about the life he has led, about the many cruelties he has suffered at the hands of his family (the normal family, that is; he still adores the P ex and calls the rest of us liars)–your heart would be filled with pity and a wish to help. You would cry. You would be amazed that he had overcome so much. All of it would be a lie.
I would caution you that–unless you have viewed the abuse with your own eyes–to be suspicious of any tale a suspected N/S/P tells. If their lips are moving, they are lying.
Towanda to all. I must leave soon to attend a birthday celebration for one of my sons. I want everyone to know that there is life after the P. When my ordeal started, I had school-age children, no job, no money, no food, no transportation, what seemed like insurmountable debts, and a shattered psyche. Today, we all still struggle, but there have been three high school graduations, two college graduations, a career re-launched, a homestead saved, counseling procured, and family ties repaired (in most cases but not all). There is hope.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 3:53pm
OxDrover says:
i AM GOING TO TRY ONE MORE TIME TO POST (INTERNET CONNECTION PROBLEMS TODAY!!!
Tood, I too, know how my P-son can and has made so many many people PITY HIM because his MEANIE OLD MOMMY ABUSED HIM SOOOOO BADLY, it would bring tears to the eyes of a stone statue! So, yes, I am very cautious in believing stories of others’ abuse….though here on LF I am pretty accepting of 99.9% of the abuse stories told….but I am aware that Ps can present themselves as VICTIMS for their pity plays. I have also seen 1 or 2 people on here that presented themselves as “victims” that I quite frankly think were either flat out Ps trying for a pity play, or they were co-abusers with another personality disordered person.
We had one a few months ago who was all about how to “control” their X —dont’ know if you remember this poster.
I agree with you that many of our “different” views are simply semantics.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 4:04pm
Tood says:
Oxy,
One of the many “talents” my ex has is a modest musical ability. At one point in his life, he cut an album that went nowhere. He wrote all the music and lyrics himself. Here’s one line that only had meaning for me in retrospect: “…when I hold you, love and control you…”
God, if I had known then what I know now…
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 4:15pm
OxDrover says:
Tood, many of us see red flags and don’t recognize them for what they are, also many of us see the red flags, know they are “not good” but stay in denial or delusion, but some few people I think are TOTALLY fooled by psychopaths with EXPERT MASKS. Also there are some of us that see “hints” of red flags and notice them, but those are explained away by “reasonable” excuses. I have been involved with several different levels of “disclosure” by Ps, and I have also used denial and toxic hope to hang in there when I should have RUN LIKE A RABBIT….I applaud you for having the courage and strength to run when you did. I can also understand your relief at not having your pain publicized locally or nationally. There was atime when I wanted my story published nationally because of my P sperm donor (a nationally known person) but I no longer care who knows or doesn’t know. but, also now I have no more desire to publish it either.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 4:43pm
henry says:
GOOD GRIEF was his handle and I bet he would of liked Toods ex’s album.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 4:45pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tood,
From the way you describe your story — and my heart goes out to you, what a nightmare — it doesn’t sound like collaboration is your issue. You were blindsided. No red flags. No excess tolerance of hurtful or untrustworthy behavior. You had an apparently wonderful relationship that suddenly turned out to be a horrible lie.
I started thinking about collaboration in my own recovery when I was thinking about the fact that I had volunteered for everything that happened to me with this man. Yes, I was seduced on a number of levels. And lied to. And misled. But nevertheless, in the large bones of my story with him, there wasn’t one thing that happened that I didn’t agree to, and in some cases, it was my idea. Though I was led up to it; he was very clever like that.
And the part that was really strange and hard to forgive myself for, was that I went through at least five separate chapters with him. Despite that fact that at the end of each of them, I was left devastated, poorer, unable to function as I had before I met him, and had clear evidence of his bad intentions and lack of caring about what happened to me.
As I went to work on this — trying to figure out what it was about — collaboration seemed like a good name for it. I write about this a bit in the article on denial. Because it was tightly related to the residue of this relationship that was the most toxic thing. The way it affected my relationship with myself, and how I fell into depression with a kind of repeated mantra that I was too stupid to live.
You know the rest of the story. How I decided to figure out what was wrong with me and fix it, rather than commit suicide (which was an attractive option by the time I got rid of him). And how I found the reasons for my attraction to him, as well as my inability to protect myself and my collaboration, in my history as an incest survivor. In a nutshell, my survival strategies were based on finding safety and acceptance with a stronger partner. And my tolerance for pain and willingness to “pay” for love were off the scale.
I don’t think that everyone here on LoveFraud has the same issues I did. There are several people here who were blindsided. But I think that people like me are perfect targets for these people, because it’s relatively easy to get us into an addicted state. One of the most helpful books I’ve read is called “Leaving the Enchanted Forest,” and it’s for relationship addicts.
Before this relationship, it never would have occurred to me that was my problem. But this relationship showed me that there was something seriously wrong with me. Because I had plenty of evidence that he was a bad man, bad for me and my life. And I still kept running back to him, imagining that he was going to love me, making terrible bargains with him, and impoverishing myself further in every way.
I’d like to blame the whole thing on him. But I can’t. I had to look at my own behavior, if I was ever really going to get right with myself again.
Kathy
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 5:45pm
Tilly says:
EC:
I was about to write “thank GOD Elizabeth Conley that I KNOW YOU THAT YOU UNDERSTAND”. ( I LOVED your parrallel to the wildlife it is truly amazing and should go into Donnas book). And then you went and wrote, “P.S. In my case, the narcissist’s personal history is absolutely heart-rending. I do not share his personal history on this forum, because I think that would be a heartless invasion of privacy. If I was cold-bloodedly evil, and wanted to damn a person, I would raise that person from infancy the way the narcissist was raised.”
EC! ALL of the Narciissists have THAT EXACT SAME STORY!! Ask OXY! If they are any good at being a Narciisist at all they at least have THAT story down pat and proof of it into the puddin. I bet you that my last narcissists childhood story was equally as bad as your ones. And I don’t mind telling it. Every person in prison has the same predator grandfather! And its ALL CRAP.
Escapee:
Thankyou! I can tell you are a true “escapee’. (The isolation of the witness protection programme will do that to you). But I must admit…IT WAS ROSA WHO TAUGHT ME HOW TO PUNCH!!!lol! Man, does she give a good KING HIT!! And Oxy’s UPPERCUT is a lot meaner than her skillet…Oxy will have you arguing HER point without realising it, in no time.
Namaste Kathleen! I need every one of you! You are a beautiful gentle soul Kathleen. And i know that you weren’t once. Thankyou for helping me feel that EC and others are not walking targets. It is only a months ago I was considering “going back”. Most of the time on LF I am arguing with myself. Life is like that.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 5:53pm
Tilly says:
Tood:
You made me laugh…That is the funniest “love song” I have ever heard! A true psychopath song. Rosa and I will be suggesting it to the guy who sings in the band, if he can stand up that is. lol!
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:07pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sweet Tilly,
I am going to nominate you for the world prize fight boxing championship! thank you for the compliment for my uppercut! LOL ROTFLMAO when you said if you didn’t watch yourself I would have you arguing my point of view! It’s only because I am always right! LOL If you don’t believe me, just ask me! LOL
I may not know anything about the subject, but I always have an OPINION Anyway! LOL
The “collaberation” point that Kathy makes DOES apply to some of us in some circumstances. I know it does apply to me in several of mine, I knew there was somehing “rotten in Denmark” but went ahead with it anyway.
Now when I smell something “rotten” I sic the dogs on it IMMEDIATELY! A good pack of hounds has advantages when you say “sic’em!”
I watched the Prime time crime show last night about this Psychopath who was having an affair with a married woman and decided to kill her husband, then also had to kill an employee who was a witness. they tried this guy twice, and the first jury got hung at 2 for not guilty and 10 for guilty (the guy testified in his own trial and he was so OBVIOUSLY PSYCHOPATHIC I could have smealled his rotten breath a mile away) the first jury was interviewd and this STUPID woman just couldn’t SEE what he was or that there was ANY evidence against him…I think she wanted a video of him doing the murder, they had DNA, videos of the vehicle going to the murder scene, and a bunch of other stuff! Anyway, the second jury convicted him, and the judge gave him life without parole.
Everything about this man and his interview and his testimony at his own first trial was unbelieveablly ARROGANT and grandiose, so TYPICAL of a high N-ish Psychopath!
I wish I could be a “professional” juror and get to be on the jury of thse creeps. Oh, well…. LOL
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:10pm
witsend says:
Todd,
A few months ago you had posted about your son and at the time I read your post over and over again because it was so helpful to me for where I was “at” at the time.
Now a few months later and I would like to read it again and of course I can’t find it.
This might not be an easy thing for you to write about again and if it is to difficult to talk about, I totally understand.
I would like to know when you knew there was a problem with your son and the early indications of the things you noticed. For some reason I can’t remember all of what you said and I have tried to find it again and again but I don’t even remember how long ago I read it.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:23pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
His guitar will not be in working order to play any songs, because we are also going to throw our drinks on him.
Drinks paid for by him, or his bandmates, of course.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:30pm
witsend says:
Whoops I mean Tood for above post..sorry
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 7:12pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
“EC! ALL of the Narcissists have THAT EXACT SAME STORY!! Ask OXY! If they are any good at being a Narcissist at all they at least have THAT story down pat and proof of it into the puddin.”
Tilly, the narcissist doesn’t “tell his story” to anyone, ever. (At least not the story I know.) His version of his life story is highly sanitized, and bears little resemblance to the ugly reality. My guess would be that he’d have a hard time accessing some of the most pertinent memories.
I know so much because when his attacks got really bad, I checked out his highly fictionalized, grandiose life story and learned the truth about every single significant point. I believe in his right to privacy, for the most part. I’m not going to tell his story, because that would be malicious. Knowing what I do does help me to avoid conflict with him, and helps me put his behavior in perspective. That’s all I care about.
He’s sick Tilly. Some people are just plain sick. Being mad at them for being sick is kinda silly, in the long run. He’s pathetic. I can’t stay mad forever. It’s not good for me.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:53pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
EC, that’s my experience too. I had to do a lot of listening between the lines and putting things together to figure out my ex’s story. And like you said, Elizabeth, if someone wanted to create a kid with a major affect disorder, they couldn’t have organized it better.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:16pm
Jen2008 says:
Well like EC I feel sorry for narcissist and for psychopaths, including my ex, because I personally believe with the psychopath it is primarily genetic, with environmental factors influencing how “socialized” they appear and how the condition sometimes plays out. For that reason, I don’t hate my ex and I do feel pity for him because he cannot help the genes he was dealt. In spite of everything he has done to me, I would be quite upset if I heard something really bad happened to him (like a debilitating accident or death etc.) But feeling sorry for him and trying to understand him and why he behaved as he did does not mean I want him anywhere in my vicinity ever again, because I don’t.
But since I beleive it is primarily a genetic condition, I don’t think he can help his lack of empathy and conscience. Yes, he knows right from wrong and deliberately makes choices sometimes to harm. Other times he harms just because he is impulsive or doesn’t think, and he harms himself included by doing stupid things and getting fired or quitting jobs on impulse etc. In watching his actions I believe at times he just couldn’t help himself and I can appreciate how difficult it must be for him when his brain doesn’t function like a normal person and he doesn’t process information or emotions like a normal person.
I think of how I changed due to brainwashing and being terrorized etc. and how “I” acted in spite of knowing right from wrong and in spite of knowing intellectually something was or was not good for me and that I should run like hell or do this or that. But while my brain was malfunctioning (for lack of a better description) was I behaving like a normal rational person would and looking after my best interest. I don’t think so. And people with PTSD react to triggers sometimes (again brain) in spite of knowing the threat is no longer real. It is the brain and brain chemistry that is awry due to the trauma. I can also understand their anger. Imagine if you were born a psychopath and saw people all around you who felt and understood things you could never feel or experience. You see people clearly caring for each other and loving each other and experiencing joys with each other and you know you don’t feel a damn thing. And even if a psychopath should consider getting help, who would want to help them as from what I have read many therapist react to them negatively right off the bat and refuse to treat them. Personally, I think I would be very angry and frustrated. I mean, who wouldn’t?
And so I believe it is with the psychopath. They were dealt a bad genetic hand and have great difficulty dealing with a malfunctioning brain.
Again, I don’t want one in my life and I can feel sorry for them and try to understand and appreciate the hardships that they too face in life from a distance. But I do sincerely believe that science is well on the way to proving that psychopathy is primarily a genetic based condition, not that they are simply a bad person “choosing” to act without conscience. I believe in the next 10 years or so science will unravel and explain alot of the mystery of the psychopath. And I hope researchers and psychiatrist devise ways to help them overcome their brain deficiencies or malfunctions.
I used to feel like I “should” hate my ex or should not feel sorry for him. Sort of like there was something wrong with me if I ever felt that compassion or twinge of “sorry” when I thought of him. But I don’t feel that way anymore. I loved him once and ia part of me will always love him (like a part of me will always love everyone I have ever loved) in spite of the horrendous way it all turned out. In the beginning with him, I tapped into the deepest love I have ever felt. I hope I find that deep love with someone else (healthy) at some point in the future. Do I wish I had never had to experience the negativity and horror that came with the relationship? Hell, yeah, I wish I had never met him and gone through the misery. But since I did, I really can’t say that I regret that I ever felt that love that I felt and I certainly am not going to deny that I felt it. Yes, he wasn’t real and his love for me wasn’t real. But MY love for him was very real and I was very real. I simply can’t deny what I felt or still feel at times when I think of the good times. But like I said, I want him no where near me and I fear his dangerousness. But I do feel sorry that he is trapped in a conscienceless and emotionless body and will never experience the love or joys of a normal person. I just don’t think there is anything wrong with feeling sorry for the psychopath as long as you understand and appreciate you can only do it from a distance.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:19pm
justabouthealed says:
Jen2008, I loved who the bad man would have been, had he been normal, but he was not. I couldn’t see he wasn’t normal until after NC and a lot of study. Because I minimized, forgave, rationalized, believed his lies, etc., and because I fell in love from a long distance, based on our 40 year past, and by the time I saw him, the rose colored contacts, rose colored glasses and a rose colored set of goggles on top of all that were firmly in place. And I didn’t realize I actually had a betrayal bond with him from the past, which I resisted until I was in a very weak place. The only clue….and oh how I wished I had paid attention to that clue…was at the last minute when I was supposed to meet him in a hotel room, I had a little urge to leave a note at the front desk saying “pay back, 40 years later” and not show up at all. I am an extremely GRACIOUS and sweet person. That thought shocked me. I should have realized my subconscience was trying to say “WAKE UP! THIS IS THE SAME GUY THAT MADE YOU CRY FOR MORE THAN A YEAR WHEN YOU WERE 16.”
I do also feel sorry for them, but also feel they HAVE to be contained. I warned every woman I saw him going after. And did some other things that I won’t share in case he lurks here. But believe me, I’ve tried to contain him as much as I can do from such a great distance and have handed the job off now to someone else who cares even more than I do that he be contained. I just couldn’t stand by and do nothing to stop him. But I did stop short of filing charges.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:47pm
PInow says:
Jen2008,
There was a post on here about an RN who lived a normal life, but was thinking of killing. She had never acted on these urges (apparently) and had chosen a helping profession (unless we hear otherwise). So, the P was dealt the genes she’d contained, being a “model” mother and wife. They have control, in fact, they are dealt incredible power to control their behaviors and urges. Just to think that they Hate us, all of us, but can Act as though they are giving, caring and in love. that takes so much emotional power and so much patience and acting… So, I don’t feel sorry for them, because they choose to behave in a way that they know is detrimental to others. they have to be contained, and they have the power to contain themselves. one p said: “I only stole $5000 because I really liked you. I could have stolen much much more”. Now, that is self -control…
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:54pm
justabouthealed says:
Kathy,
You know I have had problems with anything that even hints at blaming the victim. But your post at Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 5:45pm finally made me really get your point. You know I will always say “without a bad man, no problem”. A good man would not have exploited your history.
But I get what you are saying. And have to admit it is true for me too.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:59pm
Tood says:
witsend,
These are the things that were different about my P child, from birth: the inability to hold my gaze, as an infant; a really distinctive, high-pitched scream, rather than normal crying; disinterest in outside stimuli; and disinterest in the breast.
At the time I misinterpreted these things as fragility, and treated him as if he were more tender and helpless than other babies. He seemed so tiny and full of such depth, with large dark eyes.
If I could go back in time, the one thing I know I would do differently is hold him more. In so much looking at what I might have done to cause this horrible disorder in him, I realize that he seemed happiest and most content when left alone. And so I realize now that I didn’t hold him as much as the others. He was so QUIET most of the time.
As the toddler years progressed, he was above average in learning to talk and walk–very advanced–but disinterested in life in general. He came to life, it seemed, only when destroying something. He destroyed all his toys. He’d empty out dresser drawers, just to create the mess, then walk away, disinterested again. He even tore up a twin size mattress with his bare hands.
I thought I had a kid with behavior problems, but I had no idea that it could get as bad as it did. I thought love conquered all.
It was only just before grade school, when I was updating his baby book, that I realized there were very few photos of people smiling, happy to be around him. Most other children avoided him. Even adults tended to avoid him. I redoubled my efforts to smile, to show happiness at his presence, to find something positive. Sometimes it was difficult.
At age three he had masterminded and carried out the removal of a window screen from a second story window, urged his older sister out onto the roof of the carport, and was about to push her off when I discovered them. Also about this time, he locked his sister in an abandoned car in some woods behind our house and refused to tell me where she was. I found her by following her cries. I thought it was bad behavior, sure, but I thought it could be corrected with enough patience. There were other violent episodes in later childhood.
Nothing worked. No reward for good behavior. No punishment. No appeal to reason or morality. Nothing, not even appeals to pure self-interest. “You will have an easier time in life if you do X or Y.” So he would do A or B, just from spite, it seemed.
In the grade school years, no amount of attention was enough. At the dinner table, if all eyes were not on him, he would spill something, or scream, or stand on his chair and demand “Look at me!” I joked that his middle name should have been “what about me,” because in any interaction between people, he’d push his way in and demand “What about me, what about ME!”
After third grade, his teacher left the profession, a nervous wreck. At this time, I left his father, convinced that my first husband’s mistreatment of this child had something to do with the bad behavior. (The first husband made a huge difference in how he treated the children, virtually ignoring this child, who resembled my side of the family, and heaping attention on the others, who looked like his side. As far as I know, there was no physical or sexual abuse. But there was emotional abuse, and I tended to favor this child as a way to compensate. It was a huge mistake. Maybe things would have been different if I hadn’t been so lenient with him, so patient with the misbehavior. I found it really difficult to spank this child, as opposed to the others, because he seemed so pitiful, so full of feeling, so physically small and thin.)
The first husband fancied himself a psychology expert, and he called this child a psychopath. I would argue with him. It was after the first husband said something so unholy and cruel to this child that I had no choice but to leave him.
It was at this time I was targeted by the P who wrecked my family and my life even further. At first, new husband P and child P got along famously. Behavior improved. Schoolwork improved. In fact, the teachers told me they’d never seen such a rapid and positive change in behavior. At the time I thought it was because husband P was a good male role model. Now I realize the two of them were playing roles, sizing one another up. Eventually they joined forces to “work” the rest of the family.
It wasn’t until about age 19-20 that I began to consider the possibility that my child might really be a psychopath. A friend, a special needs teacher, had textbooks that outlined the signs of psychopathy. I borrowed and read them. My child fit almost all of the criteria. Bed-wetting. Promiscuity. Stealing. Lack of fear (once he jumped off a bridge, and talked a friend into jumping along with him). The inability to learn from experience. He’d make the same mistakes over and over. The only signs he didn’t display were fire-setting and abuse of animals. But again, nothing helped. School counselors couldn’t reach him. I couldn’t reach him. Special programs like Job Corps didn’t help.
Lying and stealing. Just a lot of lying and stealing that continues to this very day.
Throughout this child’s 20s, I would share all my concerns with husband P. Unbeknownst to me, he would relay everything I said to the child P. (These are things I have found out only in the past couple of years.) There was criminal activity. They covered for one another. They hid things from me and the rest of the family. As a matter of fact, this child is filled with hatred for me precisely because I was able to get away from husband P with my life and my property. This child also hates his sisters, for telling about the sexual abuse.
Now this child is 30 years old. He’s been in jail. He’s committed robbery, financial fraud and God knows what else. I recently allowed him to stay in my home, as the family gathered to testify against ex-husband P. He ripped me off for a few thousand dollars, which I am only now paying off. (I had used up my savings to drive to another state and rescue him from the usual financial mess they all get themselves into.)
I wish I had a better story to tell you, witsend. I wish I had a happy ending to relate, but I don’t. After 30 years, I have come to the end of my hope for this child, and I leave him to God alone. If I caused him to be this way, I’ll pay the price in the next life. But for now, I know I did all I could.
Jeez, this is all too damn much. Really people, if I hadn’t lived this mess, I wouldn’t believe it myself.
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Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:29pm
Tilly says:
EC:
I agree with your last post.
However, for me, I am still up to the ” healthy/anger” stage and I won’t pretend otherwise. (I don’t want to be like a woman I used to know at uni, she acted all serene ALL the time, but you could feel her anger bubbling away inside of her).
Of course, one of the people I am most angry at is me. You see, all my life I refused to believe it could be GENETIC. (Now I think that its a combination, ie, can be either /or or both). But until love fraud I would argue black and blue with EVERYONE, that it was ALWAYS because of the narcissists “terrible childhood”. I WASTED all of my life on that basic premise. I went back to each psychopath/narcissist time and again, even kept going back to help my brutal parents, (just like Escapee) for more torture. All the while I was thinking, “this poor. pathetic, psychopath/narcissist. I MUST give them another chance, because they have been through so much as a child…like ME”.
Lovefraud broke those chains for me . I suddenly could see ALL cluster Bs with X RAY vision. It was like being in training all of my life and then suddenly graduating overnight. And just with this one piece of knowledge: that a psychopath can be a psychopath through genetics, not only through mistreatment.
It was Oxy who finally explained it to me.. so that I finally got it. I needed her swift uppercut and then a follow thru with her skillet to get it thru my thick skull !!lol ( Now she usually has me arguing her point of view, and not even realising it!)
We are all so different on LF, and yet we are all survivors of extreme abuse. We need ALL of the different types to keep it the amazing, unique site that it is. You know, “Unity in adversity” an’ all that stuff.
All of us here keep each other on our toes and all of us are here for each other when we slip. Rosa has helped me so much she will NEVER even know it. Someday s I have been typing away and crying away on this site (which is a GOOD thing for ME), and suddenly I will read Rosa’s witty comments and just crack up laughing and I am back strong again ! I don’t know how it works but it does. Sometimes we all tease each other and end up learning a huge lesson that is invaluable.
I saw that happen with Henry and Oxy and Jim in Indy and a few others.
I’m assuming its pretty obvious, that I have felt like I have been “slipping” for quite a while, and some days I feel I have just barely got a grip, but as long as you are all still here, then I know I will be OK for one more day and i am in with a big chance.. ((((hugs)))))xoxoxoxoxoxox
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:37am
Tilly says:
Rosa:
I second the motion of drink throwing! lol!! xo
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:43am
Tilly says:
Tood:
My older brother pushed me out the window when I was two, six and twelve. I had lots and lots of broken bones during my childhood. My parents and my brother broke my left arm repeatedly. My father broke my mothers neck when I was five. I was there. She blames me. They are still alive and living together. She is a paraplegic. What is so wonderful about this?
I am alive and I found lovefraud.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:53am
Tilly says:
PS: The paraplegic is the worst psychopath out of the three of them.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tood,
You did NOT “do anything to” cause your child to be like this, and secondly, you did NOT NEGLECT TO DO ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE SAVED HIM.
Your son sounds exactly like the children I have worked with in in-patient settings who were “conduct disordered” and who even at an early age would DEFY anyone to stop them. They are not motivated by praise, and they are not detered by punishment or consequences. It is like you can’t reach them at all.
My own P-son didn’t reach that “stage” until he was in puberty, he was not a shining P (except for one small episode when he was 11) in fact, peers loved him, teachers loved him, and I had little or no trouble with him. So when he reached puberty and started the P-criminal behavior and definance I thought it was simply “teenaged rebellion” when in fact it was the FLOWERING OF HIS PSYCHOPATHY.
I do know that I suffered a great deal of emotional pain before I finally came to the conclusion that you have and that is the only way you can cope is to cut them out of your life entirely and not “rescue” them no matter how they plead for your “help” or “I have changed”
Yes, they can team up with other psychopaths (like your X) to get away with stuff and share the glee with. Some of them like an audience, my P-son is one of those so he likes to tell his tales for attention—most are lies, but he tells them anyway to make him self appear more important, more successful and impress the other convicts—I guess it is better to impress another convict than no one at all. LOL
I wasted a lot of years trying to convince myself (with denial) that my son was not a monster, if I couldn’t “see” that murder in cold blood put him “over the top” I’m not sure what would have gotten me out of denial—I guess when he BRAGGED the last time I saw him face to face in a prison visit—sort of was like a bucket of cold-water-truth in my face that I could NOT DENY TRUTH ANY MORE—so at that moment, I got out of denial and saw what he REALLY IS, what he has been since at least puberty, and what he will be forever. Of course that then only made him try to kill me—what was so ODD about it all and brought back Dr. hare’s contention that they don’t get the inconsistencies in their words and their actions—one minute he was saying “But Mom, what would Jesus do?” and when he became frustrated with me, that was when he got the Satanic LOOK in his eyes and bragged about the murder, then PRESTO, just like a card shark palms a card in an instant, he went back to “But, MOM, what would JESUS do?” with the benign, pleading look on his face and in his voice.
That instant will forever stay with me in my mind like a mini-u-tube video where I actually looked into the EYES OF SATAN and saw the TOTAL EVIL there. The DESIRE to be evil and do evil, the total glee at being evil. It WOKE ME UP finally!
But we can’t “see” til we can see and we can’t act until we can SEE. I’m not beating myself up any more about it.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:33am
PInow says:
Oxy, I am so sad for you, when I read the posts about your son. As a mother, and knowing what I already know, I sure feel like the fact that P’s blood is running trough my son’s veins does take away from the joy of parenting him. When P took off the mask I saw Pure evil, the fire of hell, not just rage, vengeance, or anger. The sight remains in my memory as the worst I’ve experienced. The cold fear I felt was not anything I could rationalize. All mythology books and the religious books are full of beasts that we kill to save the humanity. These beasts sure have psychopathic qualities about them, but even the diagnosis “Psychopath” is not really in the professional books. It saddens me that it is us who “sound crazy” and others push away. I have given up on the fight and am rolling with the punches. I may have an option of involving my ex S in the drama (the ex my P “cured me from”). But, I am too afraid, even though part of me wants to let the beasts fight it out (in court, on the street, I don’t care). Oxy, is this a crazy idea? (sounds crazy even to me, but I must protect my child). Is this what the fight of good and evil is all about?
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 11:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear PInow,
“Is this what the fight of good and evil is all about?”
Gosh, PI I wish I knew the answer to that one. LOL I do feel that there IS EVIL in the world, malignant evil in the minds and hearts of some people, and the damage that those people who embrace evil do to others is what has made this world, this earthly life sometimes HELL ON EARTH.
Just imagine for a moment, that there were no people who did evil acts deliberately. There were no theives, no rapists, no muggers, no liars, no cheaters, no violent crime of any kind, NO UNKINDNESS—every one on earth was good hearted, and helped their fellow man. No wars, etc. all politicians would be honest and work for the good of the people in their country. No one was an addict of any kind.
Now, let’s imagine further that we STILLL HAD HIV, Ebola, flu, cancer, accidents, and every kind of disease we have now, etc. but what would the world be like then? It would almost by comparison to what we have now be PARADISE ON EARTH.
Life itself isn’t really all that bad, but it is when yo ufactor in the PSYCHOPATHS and others who are evil intentioned or greedy, uncaring, selfish, or just plain mean that “life” gets ugly and complicated.
Just as even in the “Garden of Eden” a psychopath (Satan) slithered in to mess up paradise on earth, they are still with us in the form of users and abusers of every ilk and level.
If we are going to continue to live, we have to learn to LIVE INSPITE OF THEM, live around them, and still some how stay out of their reach, and to realize what is really important in this world. not an easy task, but I think I am finally starting to “catch on”—took me long enough! LOL
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 11:54am
housie says:
JEN2008,
What a marvelous healing insight you have shared. I believe it was Robert Hare, who on the flap of his book Without Conscience, stated something to the effect that we should have empathy for these creatures, although we do not allow them to occupy our space.
I am continuing to sort out who I am from the rubbish of the last 42 years of my life with this man. I am coming to understand that what I experienced when I was with him, or not with him and still trauma bonded, was in fact real FOR ME. My experiences, feelings, reactions, ways of perceiving, were me. For a time, I felt that when I found out the truth regarding who he really was, that I had lost myself and there was a deep chasm of a nothingness that made those years a void. What I am coming to realize is that although what I thought was real with him was not, it was MY reality at the time, and that now that I know better, I can make different choices based on the new information.
When I was with him during the last few months I would sense in him an emptiness – a pretending in him to appear to feel some way in which he could not feel. It seemed like he had a shell of a body with no way to connect or be real. He faked without feeling what he saw others feel or share to connect. I can’t imagine being stuck in a body with missing parts that will never allow me to experience what I see others able to do so freely.
While I DO NOT wish to ever allow him entry into my life again, I can choose not to judge something I do not fully understand. I can only choose to remove myself from the danger and try to put the pieces of my life back together. I was 19 when I met him, and I have had to realize that what I THOUGHT we had together was not so – but it was so for me at the time. Now, when I know to do better, I can grieve what was, or was not, pick up what is left of my life, and move forward. In my Christian faith, I can Walk in Newness of Life and ask God to bring beauty out of the ashes and Redemption out of the Death of the old. I believe there is Resurrection power out of all things and that in God’s economy, nothing is wasted.
I still feel the trauma in my soul, but I imagine the Holocaust survivors do so likewise. Yes, that makes me vulnerable, wounded, real and continuing my Pilgrimage to the Promised Land. I know I will never be left alone, and that this experience can make me bitter or better.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 12:42pm
witsend says:
Tood,
I don’t know how to even thank you for telling me your painful story. I certainly hope that I didn’t ask you to share something that caused you more pain to do so.
You are a very inspiring lady. I have always read all your post. I can “feel” your wisdon, your truth just by reading your words.
It is very helpful for me to understand what mothers have seen in their own children when raising them to help me to shed some light on what my own situation is. I still struggle to make sense of where my son would fall into on the spectrum of disorders/illnesses.
In my situation I did not see signs of excessive troubling behavior in my son when he was a young child. However in looking back (hind site) I can come up with a few things that trouble me now. (and back then as well)
Colic. He was a colicky baby and cried alot, especially at dinner preperation time. So of course I held him alot. BUT I’m sure I was stressed when I was holding him. Not only because of the crying but also because his father (he was alive then) was an alcoholic and alcoholics create stress. (this was before he went into recovery)
I know holding your baby alot should be a good thing but in my case I am wondering if it was a bad thing because of the stress.
Another thing was, and this always made me wonder, is every day and I mean EVERY day my son asked me, “Who do you love more? Me or ****? (the blank was my older sons name. He was approx 5 or 6 years old when he started asking me this question. (his father was dead by this time) Every day I would answer….(often with a gesture of affection like a hug) I love you both the same. Sometimes elaborating on how “loveable” both he and his brother were, sometimes just the simple “I love you both the same”.
His brother was 10 years older, and my youngest always seemed to adore his brother….Because of their age difference there wasn’t the usual “sibling” competitiveness between 2 brothers. When the youngest was 5 the oldest was 15. So they didn’t bicker with each other alot as brothers often do.
He asked me this question tirelessly on a daily basis until he was about 10 years old. I wondered did he ask the question because he can’t “feel” the love given to him on a daily basis?
Or was it simply validation? But to ask that question for several years? Every day?
At first I didn’t think so much of the “question”. He was a very inquisitve child and asked lots and lots of questions about EVERYTHING. Many questions of which I couldn’t even answer. Or thought provoking questions for his age. The questions always kept me on my toes because he didn’t accept the “easy” answer. It was always met with another question. WHY IS THE SKY BLUE? So many things that I just accepted as “being as they are ” he questioned all these things. He challenged my brain all the time by asking questions I didn’t know the answer to. (at a young age)
He also took apart (& consequently broke) many of his toys. To see how they worked I suppose. He taught himself to read (I take no credit) before he was in kindergarden. All I did was read to him and he started to sound out the words himself and started to read the books to me. We had magnet letters on the fridge and he would sound out words and spell them on the fridge. His sunday school teacher was amazed that he could read so young. She was also the principle of the first school he would attend.
It seemed to me that he might be above average intelligence for his age but it also troubled me somewhat that he could not accept anything for its “face value” (for lack of a better wording) He could never just accept the toy for what it was and enjoy “playing” with it….He had to take it apart and in doing so break it. I chalked it up to his inquisitive nature.
The other thing he did display early on was that he was fearless. Zero fear of anything. He was actually somewhat of a clumsy child. It didn’t deter him.
Another thing that he did when he was very young is he couldn’t “contain” himself from something he found to be exciting. If he was invited to go to his little friends B-day party (or whatever it might be) on the weekend by Thursday or Friday he would have himself so worked up looking forward to this that he would be sick. I mean throwing up sick. Often times sick enough where he couldn’t go. This repeated itself enough times that I finally didn’t INFORM him ahead of time if we were going somewhere or if he was invited
somewhere, until the last minute. This seemed to solve the problem but I wondered why or how he could work himself up so bad to get an upset stomach almost every single time?
It seemed he couldn’t “delay” his pleasure?
Back then I didn’t see it that way but now I wonder? I might add that he was not a hyper active child. He had his “hyper” moments when he was playing with a bunch of other kids, he could get wound up sometimes, but overall he wasn’t what I would percieve as hyper active. My older son was much more hyper active.
Over all he was a loving child. He and I were close and spent lots of time together. He did display affection and often practically sat in my lap (darn close) when we would watch movies together or kids TV programs. He loved playing with other kids. He played sports in elementary school. He did well in school. His teachers liked him, his peers liked him etc. Other than the things I mentioned above that all seemed pretty “normal”.
When he turned 15 years old I felt that is when he did an about face. He started lying. About almost anything and everything. He stoped playing sports. He went from being a good student to failing his classes. He became very manipulative. He passes blame. He has control issues. The rules don’t apply to him. He feels entitelment. He has very distorted thinking. He doesn’t seem to percieve that there are other people that might have opinions or their own way of seeing things. (even on the level of his own peers) There is his way (the right way) or the wrong way.
He has calculated how to approach his counselor both in school and his therapist and has lied effectively (for a time) to get them to believe he is this poor misunderstood child. Until recently, when he cornered himself in a lie with the school counselor, I think she really thought he was in a bad situation at home. When he got caught in this lie he had a huge melt down and she saw a side of him that he had not presented before.
He has definately not ever learned anything by his mistakes and punishment OR positive consequences for his actions have never worked either.
I have come to a few conclusions about this. When he recieves a positive consequence he feels so entitled to this anyways that he does not connect the dots….Positive behavior = positive consequences. When he recieves a negative consequence for his behavior he still doesn’t connect the dots. HE is ANGERED by any negative consequence and doesn’t see past the anger. He feels entitled to whatever he wants and the negative consequence is taking away his entitlement to do what he wants to do.
He reacts the same way if he gets a negative consequence at school. He hates the teacher after that, it is all their fault, he is angry and he will do worse in that class than he did before the consequence.
This is where I am at currently with my son.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 4:47pm
Tilly says:
Oxy:
“I got out of denial and saw what he REALLY IS, what he has been since at least puberty, and what he will be forever. Of course that then only made him try to kill me.
As soon as I went no contact with my P daughter, (the one with the angelic face that can “do tears” at a seconds notice), she went to her psychopathic father and conspired against me. Funny thing is, this action has purged 25 years of his hidden murders. But like the tidal wave in Phuket, how it washes out in the end is anyones guess.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 4:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
Honey, you did not “stress” your child by holding him too much as a colicky baby! His probolems are NOT anything that you did!!!!!!!! Write that 500 times and turn it in by Monday or you get BOINKED! LOL
I too wondered “what did I do wrong?” or “What magic phrase or thing could I do to save my son from himself?” THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO. You can “lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink!” That is true with our kids too. If they are DETERMINED to have their way then they are FREE TO DO SO….we cannot stop them, and if they are “immune” to the consequences, even the consequences of going to prison they can do that one too.
Even after my P son’s first 2 years (of a 5 yr sentence) in prison he was right back in within 5 months! AS SOON AS he got out, he had RE-ENTERED crime as a way of life. He was conning from the get go even before he got out of the joint.
I had arranged for him to come home, and once in a while they DO tell the truth…he came home for a confrontational visit ONLY–and sneared at me that “the REASON I didn’t come home (as if that would punish me!) was because I KNEW if I got into trouble with the law you would turn me in.”
I looked at him and said “Son, you GOT THAT CHIT RIGHT!” I NEVER again saw him as a free man, the only other times I saw him after that were in prison visits after he was arrested for the murder. I am grateful to God that he chose NOT to come home, because I really believe if he had come back then, he would have killed me. I found out later that as SOON as he got out of prison and went to live with my husband’s niece (he convinced her he was not a “bad boy” that the ONLY problem he had was his meanie old mommie was just so abusive to him, what he reallty needed was loving trust!) PUKE!!! she gave him “loving trust” and look what it got her, so WHO does she get mad at? Why ME of course! LOL
He has been given MANY “second chances” by lots of people and he has BETRAYED EVERY ONE OF THEM! Martha Stout who wrote “The Sociopath next Door” says a “rule of threes” and that if someone lies to you 3 times, mark them off. I HAVE THE RULE OF ONES—-the first time, the ONLY time someone (children excepted) lie to you, MARK THEM OFF. I have given many people who lied to me a “second chance” and never have I ever been rewarded with real repentence, they have ALWAYS lied to me again. (children excepted) So, the RULE of ONE is my model. I probably will “mark off” some people who are NOT psychopaths, but I am much more likely to mark off ALL the psychopaths fairly early, so I am willing to make the trade off. that is why I am NC with my egg donor.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:17pm
Tilly says:
Blueskies:
I just saw “miss Tilly fantastico’, thankyou for the validation, I really need it right now.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:53pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I don’t believe that I stressed my baby by holding him to much…I guess I would be more inclined to believe that I wasn’t able to “pacify”him by holding him when he was colicky because I was stressed.
I tend to go back and relive his childhood in my mind. Maybe this still stems from the age old debate. Nurture or nature?
I am also soul searching my relationship with his father.
His father was at one point in time (what I call) a non functioning alcoholic, (no longer able to hold down a job, or deal with responsibilitys in daily life) before he finally went into recovery.
I am thinking that it is possible many of my husbands issues & behaviors that I thought of as being alcoholic in nature might be more than that.
Being that I was raised in an alcoholic home and was expected to “overlook” or excuse alchoholic behavior of my fathers by my mother….Maybe I extended this into my adult relationships as well.
I am looking into my being an adult child of an alcoholic in a different light.
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 9:13pm
witsend says:
Oxy
You can still boink me with the skillet as many times I need it!
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 9:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend,
How about if I hug you instead? ((((hug)))))
I put on another thread some studies I was reading today (still not “totally proven”) about there being some similar traits in the severe alcoholic’s DNA markers and the P’s. It is not uncommon for a P to also be an addict or an alcoholic as well. being one doesn’t mean you can’t be the other as well….my son’s P-traits didn’t show up in flaming color until puberty—like presto-change-o over night!
It is also possible that if you were raised in an “alocholic” home that one or both of your parents might also have been high in P-traits as well if it was pretty abusive/enabling.
Even though there was no alcohol in my immediate family (grandparents nor egg donor drank, or step dad, but GG-father was a violent mean drunk, and egg donor’s brother was definitely a MEAN DRUNK…looking back now, I think he was probably also bi-polar, alcoholic AND psychopathic. How about that for a triple whammy???!!! I do know that Uncle monster was hard core from at least age 7, defiant, sneaky, and mean, until the month before he died, he had a stroke so he was no longer dangerous.
I see the effects of his abuse on his 3 kids to this day and the oldest is 56—none are alcoholics but have suffered relationship and other problems their entire lives, anxiety, etc. considering what they went through (terrible abuse) they did pretty well to not have been locked up either crazy or criminal.
Witsend, your drama with your son will eventually “play itself out” one way or another as time passes….either your son will “straighten up his act” or he won’t and frankly, my take is that it doesn’t matter much what you do, he is his “own man” making his own decisions now for better or worse, the main thing I am concerned with is YOU and your safety and your pain…Tilly’s been there, and others here on this site too with kids, and everyone with someone(s) close to themor that they loved. It’s a “tough row to hoe” and all any of us can do is the best we can do and I know you are doing that! (((hugs)))) and my prayers always!
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Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:48pm
2MUCH2TAKE says:
Whoops~ I wasn’t finished. He can’t stop “giving” to other women. That is how he hooked me. I don’t have solid prrof of untaithfulness, but I do believe he has been. He swears he hadn’t but I don’t believe him. He lies so much that I don’t know what to believe anymore. it’s all just a big mind-f—! And oxy you are right, if you have contact with them is only keeps you a wounded person. I hope and pray that something good comes out of this whole situation. He now wants us to get counseling. What a joke. Okay, I gotta go and try and sleep again. Love you guys and gals, 22
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:27am
Tilly says:
witsend:
My dad is an alcoholic too, (the one that broke my mothers neck in front of me ,when i was five). I’ve read the books on “adult child of an alcoholic” but they didn’t do it for me. Maybe i missed something?
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 2:28am
OxDrover says:
Tilly,
My family, except for Uncle Monster, waas not an alcoholic one or at least they were DRY drunks if anyting. My GF did drink and was pretty raucous in his early days but quit drinking when my egg donor was born, but Uncle Monoster was 7 by then. Uncle monster was drinking like a fish by age 15 but was already a P before that as at age 7 he started smothering his baby sister.
The ENABLING/CO-DEPENDENT, whatever you want to call it, from his mother, who had learned it in her own alcoholic father’s house of “keep the peace” cover up the bad deeds of the drinker or bad by etc…was passed on to my egg donor, who though she was the VICTIM of her monster brother, kept it secret until myh GF finallycaught him and put a stop to the abuse, but the ROLE of my GM continued throughout his life, covering up, pretending nothing was wrong, keeping the family secrets even when she KNEW FOR A FACT he was abusing his wife and kids—don’t upset the bad guy by confronting him about his bad behavior.
If someone were to confront the bad guy, THE WHISTLE BLOWER GOT POUNDED ON….for betraying the family…not the bad guy who did the bad thing. GO FIGURE.
So in many ways, I DID grow up in a family of alcoholics who kept the secrets—even from me until I was grown. I had no idea uncle monster was what he was.
I have seen and read several books about Co-dependents and enablers and fixers, and they DO resonate with me. I tried to think that they didn’t (denial) because my egg donor and my step father didn’t “drink”—-it isn’t just about alcohol or drugs (though that is what it is blamed on) “Daddy would be nice if he didn’t drink” is a FABLE because daddy is a moonster who only has the balls to BE A MONSTER when he gets a snoot full—-others are monsters sober OR DRUNK, but the bottom line is that NOTHING IS TO BLAME except the person being a monster.
I put up with all kinds of bad behavior that I probably wouldn’t have tolerated if they HAD BEEN DRUNK….Our family did have two NO CLAUSES: 1) no adultery was allowed (except for uncle Monster) and 2) NO violence, except against ME for “just cause” –as determined by my egg donor—and of course, the exception was Uncle Monster, he was allowed to use violence (horrible violence physical and emotional) on his wife and kids.
My GM was the salve for everyone’s wounds. Her role was to “let’s all play nice and pretend it didn’t happen.”
My egg donnor assumed this role—with a vengence—when my GM died, though she had been entirely different prior to my GMs death, but someone had to FILL that role or the family would have “disintergrated” and keeping the FAMILY STATUS QUO is the thing that MUST BE MAINTAINED. Who the heck knows what would happen if everyone got “healthy?” LOL The anxiety that is felt when even one member leaves the familyh or dies upsets the BALAANCE of the family which has to be maintained for everyone nto feel “secure” (relatively sure of how things will go—even if the security is knowing that Uncle monster will drink and beat his wife.)
As my egg donor started getting more feeble and saw the end of her life approaching a couple of years ago she started really pushing me and grooming me to take over the role of FAMILY PEACEMAKER AT ANY COST, and though she had also never “approved of” or liked my DIL P, she started insisting that I IGNORE outrageous behavior on her part (like not paying the bills, getting into debt etc.) and my egg donor started subsidizing my son and his spend thrift wife with money to bail them out. If I objected to her doing this, she became quite angry. She also started requiring that I be her immediately available care giver, though she did not really require that much “care” but she wanted it available immediately upon her demand, rather than when it was convenient for me. When I refused to give in, that was when I was D & D’d and replaced by the DIL and the Trojan Horse psychopath. When she had them jummping to her commands she no longer needed me so I became the “outcast” of the family because I was no longer playing my ASSIGNED ROLE.
Of course when the DIL and the TH-P went to jail for trying to kill my son C, the family dynamics changed again, and she saught me out as her caregiver again, totally agast that the previous caregivers had betrayed her because “they were always so respectful of me.” (whereas I had NOT been so “respectful”–giving in to her every wish!) LOL
Her rose as “family bad boy rescuer” continues on with her denial of my P son’s part in the attempted murder, and so she sends him money to try to rescue him from me and his brother, and sits as a martyar because her only child (me) and her only free world grandson won’[t have anything to do with her. Her adopted grandson isn’t a grandson because he “isn’t blood.” (Yet he has done more for her than the other two ever did! since he worked here on the farm and had more time available.)
Lookiing at family-role theory has given me some insight into the way people live out the “scripts” of their lives rather than writing their lives “as they go.”
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 10:27am
witsend says:
Tilly,
I guess what I am getting at is that I thought that I had really come to terms with the alcoholics that I have loved in my life.
My father was verbally abusive and could be a mean drunk. But I don’t think he was an S/P/N. Or any other type of personality disorder. He was just a drunk However when you are raised with an alcoholic, as you know, you are taught to overlook and hide certain “family secrets”. At least that is how I was raised. To the outside world, we looked pretty good. Nice Catholic family, blah, blah. Only my parents closest friends knew he had a drinking problem. He held the same job for over 40 years. As a matter of fact his being able to “function” in the real world was his biggest problem. Because he NEVER even would admit he was an alcoholic. He said if he had a drinking problem for over 50 years he would be out on the streets, and homeless. Not an upstanding citizen, like he thought of himself. His body didn’t agree with that statement though. Shortly before he died (about a year) he started to have seizures. The first time, he was rushed to the hospital.
My mother led me to believe they were epileptic seizures. Later when my father became pretty sick and was hospitalized again, I went to Chicago to visit him. I MET with his family doctor and the doctor told me he was having alcohol induced seizures. He had consumed alcohol for so many years that his brain reacted when there was not enough alcohol in his body. I had never heard of anyone having seizures such as this.
I think when you live with denial all your life as a child it is easy to understand how as an adult you do look at the world through “rose colored glasses”.
I was determined to not be alcoholic. But of course I did the next best thing. Both of my husbands were alcoholics. I went through much counseling/therapy after my husband commited suicide. And I also delt with many of my childhood issues.
The one thing that I learned to do well as a kid and in my marriages with alcoholics is to “tip toe on egg shells”.
I haven’t done this for 12 years, since my husband died.
I find myself doing this AGAIN with my son.
It is bringing up all that dread again. The same way you feel when you are waiting for the other shoe to fall, as when living with a drunk.
I feel like I have come full circle. In a bad way. Right back where I started. That dread in the pit of your stomach. The anxiety, trying to not set him off, avoiding the conflict, ALL of that same crap. Different set of circumstances. But my reaction of how I am currently dealing is the same….Ugh…
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 10:38am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Cluster B disorders are so confusing. Every cluster B comes across as narcissistic, if by this we mean “totally self centered”. In the end it always comes down to “me, myself and I” with these folks.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 11:17am
lyj Joy says:
Hey everyone, I just wanted to check in and say that I’m alive and as well as I can be since the mold exposure. Staying busy working, living a sociopath free live, and enjoying the company of my sweet new man. Wish I had more time to follow the threads, but really needing a nap before work as my health is still pretty fragile but slowly getting better:). You all are in my thoughts and hope you all are doing well, staying NC because God that really is the key to healing, and progressing toward a happy new life:)! My world is not stress or problem free, but ever so much better without the dark cloud of the Sp and my tormented emotions over it all bringing me down. Finally able to forgive me and just ready to bless the lessons he taught me, and to otherwise forget he ever existed. I said that now I know that I want to share my life with someone affectionate, who lives and loves passionately, and who laughs often and out loud. I have found that and it makes me smile. Hugs to you all.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 11:47am
OxDrover says:
Dear Joy,
Thanks for checking in!!!! It gives us all a smile to know that someone has “graduated” too a BETTER LIFE, a HEALTHY LIFE! Sorry that you are still haviing some health problems but hopefully some stress free time will help you heal.(((hugs))))
Witsend, that is what we learn is to “tip toe on egg shells” to keep from setting off the bad behavior—YUK!!! I no longer tip toe around anyone! I have done it too for most of my life, but NO MORE. Yes, I think you are doing the same thing with your kid an dhe has learned that if he throws a fit, you will “tip toe” and he will get what he wants—control of the situation.
I too tip toed around my son—and my egg donor! NO MORE. No one is so important that I must placate them at the expense of myself and my own peace. NO ONE.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 3:53pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
It is an awful thing walking on eggshells.
Several months ago when I saw a real “dark side” of my son, during an argument, a side I have RARELY seen, I was thinking about not backing away from him (physically) and allowing “whatever was going to happen, happen”.
There was a SPLIT SECOND in time where I felt he might get violent. And I had 2 choices….Either take a step towards him and see if he crossed that (violence) line or take a step AWAY from him. I chose to take a step back from him.
Days before this anger outburst, you could feel the increasing tension in the house. I knew that we were going to have some kind of a big “altercation”. He had lost his computer privledges and he was just getting angrier by the day.
I didn’t cave with the computer, I stood my ground, but I did choose to back off from what could have escalated into violent behavior on his part.
Now he is angry because of drivers ed. And tension is again mounting.
The problem is the anger. He doesn’t comply with simple rules. So the consequences are like being between a rock and a hard place. I can enforce them and then I deal with the anger.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 5:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear witsend,
Not enforcing them, giving in to his demands, isn’t going to help either. He feels Entitled to drivers ed, he feels entitled to have a car (that’s the next demand) and to drive it when and where he wants—-what he doesn’t grasp is that he is NOT entitled to what he wants just because he is 16 or whatever.
You do NOT owe him a computer or a car, or anything else but BASIC minimum housing, food and clothes and sdupervision. some parents do feel like they OWE their kid more “things” but that’s not the case.
some kids think they are entitled and demand that you “dance to their tune” and it isn’t easy to stand your ground, but for your sake and fo rhis it is what you have to do.
When mine was making all his demands and I wouldn’t give in, he did kick in my ribs, then take off and my egg donor took him in AGAINST my will, and he screwed her over good too, all the while he lied to her and pulled the wool over her eyes. she gave him the car, etc. Her “love and second chance” didn’t keep th elittle darling out of prison, though. so now she sends him more money. She doesn’t even see that if they had managed to off me that she would have BEEN NEXT!
All I can suggest is to KEEP A CALM EXTERIOR, and just be firm rather than try to “reason” with him, he DOES NOT WANT TO HEAR IT. So I wouldn’t bother with the “reasoning” just say “that’s the way it is. bad grades, No driver’s ed.”
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 9:09pm
Tilly says:
Oxy:
My paraplegic mother is still the worst psychopath of the three of them. ALL of my friends for ALL of my life used to say to me, “I wish I had a mother like yours, she is so so nice and fun and accepting and loving”. The only person who saw through her was my ex psychopath husband. That is why I married him. He recognised her immediately, he could outplay her, out wit her, out nice her and that is how he got me to go with him. He wanted to help me “get away from” her.(HE was even worse than her). To this day I steer clear of people in wheel chairs. If I told you the damage she has done to me you would not believe me so, I won’t bother.
She treated my brother like your egg donor treats your P son in prison. He can do know wrong. From the outside looking in, your egg donor does not sound like anything but a PSYCHOPATH to me. But you would know better than me, of course.
My mothers “denial” and “not seeing” my p brothers disgusting behaviour is just that….ie a great big bunch of lies. I think your egg donor knows all too well and can see extremely well the truth of every situation. She is not in denial underneath. She chooses to go with the P son in prison because that will hurt YOU. And thats what she WANTS to do. That is my humble opinion. That is definitely what MY mother would do. An “Oxy dead” is a much better source of narcissistic supply coming from for everyone for your egg donor, than an “Oxy alive”.
My whole family would have rejoiced if I had died. I was ALWAYS the scape goat, reject, it was always my fault.
I believe that if people are a psychopath, they need to be seen as a psychopath first before they are an alcoholic.
An alcoholic who is NOT a psychopath and who is on a “dry drunk” would NEVER do the things that a psychpath/narcissist would do. Not in a million years. They would think about evil things, they might even through a tantrum (not a “violent- to- another -person” one), they would hold resentment to them forever but they would NOT follow through with psychopathic behaviour.
e.g. murder.
In my humble opinion, A psychopath who is addicted to alcohol or drugs is less of a danger than if he is sober. Psychopaths don’t have “dry drunks” because they are just acting the whole time they are sober. They cannot EVER “get the twelve steps of AA/NA” because they have no capacity for self inventory (4th step), empathy(8th step) or remorse or real kindenss.
The only exception is a psychopath on “ice ” or the new designer drugs, because for a certain length of time their physical strength is tenfold and their minds are “clear” in their accuracy of target. So they will NOT fall over or go into black out or go “on the nod” or give themselves away and make a mistake through their paranoia and mumbo jumbo talk. (Like an alcoholic or drug addict would eventually). These drugs make the criminal feel ten foot tall and bullet proof and until their next hit of the drug they are just that. If they are a psychopath into the bargain, look out!
As a child, when I would tell people what had happened to my mother I would get bashed severly by my family, and have my left arm broken each time as a reminder. I was told from the age of five, “that is not what happened, you are making that up, so there must be something wrong with you.”
That was my core belief ..until I read all about it later in life. (i.e. “What I see is not real so there is something wrong with me”).However reading all about it, and understanding what had happened to me, did not stop me from being available to the very next Psychopath, on my path.
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 11:38pm
Betty says:
I really appreciate this thread on alcoholism and Cluster Bs: my Dad wasn’t an n/p/s — until he drank! Then he displayed the symptoms BIGtime.
I’m reading “The Trauma Bond” by Patrick J. Carnes, Ph.D., that Matt recommended, and it’s as good as you all said it was. Memories are surfacing, things I’ve spent my life trying to forget, often under the strong commandment Oxy described: “Keep everything ‘normal’ — deny, even to yourself (or maybe especially to yourself) that anything is wrong.” I rebel against denial! Cannot believe the damage it does, and the countless ways it sets one up to be a victim.
After reading here for months, finally got the courage to write to Donna, and she (bless her) posted my email: http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....g-monster/
That was in March of this year, and because of the truth-telling, compassion, and acceptance I found on this site with you incredible folks– the doors opened, and my worst memories started coming back — big pieces of my life came back that I thought were gone forever. Why am I happy to remember the worst? Because facing it all makes room for healing, and that is my goal and greatest hope. Not my old idea of being completed by somebody else or something that came from the outside, but the awareness that my spirit is still flexible and resilient! That’s my miracle, that I know that now, deep down in my bones.
Denial, and the imperative that “we make things right,” is conveyed to us through fear, that “walking on eggshells” feeling, or “waiting for the other shoe to drop” — they teach us to ignore/tolerate behavior from others that ought to send us running to the hills. But we can stuff it so deep down inside that it’s unbelievable — we’d rather forget parts of our lives than question a trauma bond!
From the outside, my family looked typically middle class: WASPS, Episcopalian, nice house, peaceful garden. Dad a pilot, and brother in the military, both decorated officers. Mom a homemaker and an accomplished amateur historian. Me an RN, later studying to become an art historian. We were all well-read, enthusiastic nerds. But underneath, I couldn’t have friends over, and my parents didn’t have close non-drinking friends, because alcohol was “the Big Secret” at our house.
Since that day I first wrote Donna, I have remembered 18 major trauma events/ threads that have run through my life of 56 years: that’s more than three major trauma events per decade! And I know I’m not alone.
Some of these were:
-Dad nearly smothering me when drunk (7 years old)
-Mom saying she quit drinking for me – because she’d nearly electrocuted me when drunk
-Mom beating me: running through the house screaming, chasing me at 5 years old, beating me till she was physically exhausted. I was supposed to have picked a neighbor’s rose from her garden. I didn’t.
-My older brother and his wife offering me refuge; “call us whenever it gets too bad,” then withdrawing the offer when I asked for help (age 11)
-Multiple triggers in my work as an RN — lots of verbal abuse and attack, physical threats, and high drama (I’m not drawn to created drama)
-Two marriages with verbal, emotional, and sexual abuse, one to a Presbyterian minister, and a credentialed counsilor
No one in my family was an n/p/s — except around alcohol — and then look out! There is a school of thought that says you can’t blame the alcoholic — they are ill. I respect that, but still think we are responsible for our choices — my Dad knew he put his family way after his bottle. I never drank because it scared me to death, but managed to end up with co-dependent behaviors (like denial and not enforcing healthy boundaries) that have kicked my butt.
I have never been able to entirely condemn my parents because I see their humanity, and realize they were both at times overwhelmed with terrible pain, depression, and despair. If they were still alive, and behaving in those ways, though — we’d be No Contact. And I say that with much love for them, and as a newer development, much love for myself, too.
Like many people on this site, I have the symptoms of PTSD and night terrors/ nightmares off the charts of scary. My brother doesn’t believe the symptoms are real — he’s still with his denial. I’m not arguing with him — I’m going to Al-Anon, meditation, reading the awesome blogs posted here, and looking for a job so I can take back full responsibility for myself as quickly as possible. I exercise and sing and dance and laugh as much as possible, even though no one is allowed to be happy in my family except the alcoholic. Too Bad! Think it’s time for these old destructive family rules to bite the dust, so I’m letting go the the destructiveness day by day.
This is the first time I’ve ever written all this down, and I’ve never told anyone the full horror. I will soon, when I’m ready, but that’s how strong the “keep the secret” is instilled by alcoholic parents. I think that it’s essential to be able to tell yourself the truth, and know that you can stand it, and that you will endure.
The love I sought all my life was waiting in my own heart, and it’s healing me. Love and acceptance do that. I’ve stopped staying afraid: my life is lighted by good people, over-comers, and it’s you. And me, too.
Lots of Love,
Betty
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Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 11:56pm
Tilly says:
If they are not psychopaths, then what is?
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:27am
a_real_wife says:
Great points, Steve, as usual – and another great explanation of those ever so slight differences, particularly the “n’s” sense of entitlement, and the “s” inherent lack of guilt or remorse (no conscience to manage, I believe was how you put it.) I’ll be back for a more thorough read later.
I merely wanted to recommend for any “true crime” buffs out there, a book by Vincent Bugliosi (boo-lee-OH-see), the former LA prosecutor, who got Charles Manson convicted.
It relates his opinion, weighing in on the Nicole Brown-Ronald Goldman murders by we know who….
“Outrage: The Five Reasons Why O.J. Simpson Got Away With Murder (1996)”
He seems to have an intuitive grasp (plus a, IMO, brilliant legal mind) on the ‘attitudes prevalent in sociopaths.’
BBL, y’all – be well ~*~
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 7:35am
a_real_wife says:
…one more thought:
I believe that Steve just might be the 99th or 100th “monkey” – in educating people about DISORDERED people, one of these days, we’ll all start “washing our sweet potatoes…!”
These posts may just well be enough to help tip the balance in favor of more “general public awareness” about ASPD et al.
lol
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:18am
ThePeregrine says:
Ahhh … yeah, OK. Steve, frankly I find this Narcissiopath idea interesting, but not really helpful. And that’s not a criticism as much as it’s a different perspective. I always appreciate your thinking on these subjects.
Here’s the thing: Diagnostic criteria are developed for the convenience of the diagnostician. They don’t accurately reflect the human experience or the human condition. It’s a bit like sticking a pin in a map and saying, “Oh, I see. You are in Iowa.” Yes, once in my life I may have stood exactly where that pin is stuck, but right now I’m 122 miles away. Still in Iowa maybe, but …
In a similar way, we may label somebody Narcissistic or Histrionic or Borderline when in fact that person has traits of all these behavioral modes. At some times, the person’s behavior may manifest one more strongly than the other, and if that’s the time a diagnosis is suggested we may get the N label to stick.
That doesn’t mean that the person won’t strongly manifest behaviors that are more closely linked to a Borderline Personality or even Antisocial Personality. It just means that at that moment in time when the person encountered a diagnostician, this seemed the most appropriate label.
This is why the DSM includes the concept of “comorbidity.” Not only do personality disorders manifest differently in different people, they also manifest differently at different times in the same person. Labels are, in the final analysis, only useful for a very broad understanding of people and disorders.
So maybe it’s just me thinking this way, but I think it is more useful to see the Personality Disordered as deeply dysfunctional people who for some reason have chosen a high level of social manipulation as their primary method of engagement with the world. The sad thing is that, however we label them, their methods often work all too well and destroy many lives in the effort to meet their own twisted needs.
With all due respect, apart from that very broad understanding, more labels aren’t needed.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:56am
OxDrover says:
DearPeregrine,
I agree with BOTH you and Steve…all the “cluster Bs” traits apply to many of the PERSONALITY DISORDERED AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER….I wish the DSM was not soooo VERY specific but was more general in just diagnosing a “personality disorder” (one diagnostic name) and then maybe like “depression, major” or “depression, situational” etc, but over all DEPRESSION with a “modifier” I think the emphasis should be on the PERSONALITY DISORDER itself, with a modifer like the emphasis is on depression and then “the modifer”–if that makes any sense.
The big problem with PDs is that they are ALL toxic to one extreme or another because of their manipulative style of coping. So, we could say have a “DIAGNOSIS” OF “PRIMARY Personality disorder with “high level of narcissistic traits” or Primary PD with x, y or z, or x,y AND Z etc.”
Not that I think that the docs who write the DSM definitiion will SIMPLIFY the situation, sort of like the IRS “simplification” Act that resulted in what my CPA called the “CPA FULL-EMPLOYMENT” Act. LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 12:17pm
witsend says:
Bananna,
The text messaging is to drive you crazy. Make you pay attention to him and to create the pity ploy.
IGNORE them. Don’t even read them just delete them. the more you read the more he pulls you into his drama.
It doesn’t matter what is behind them (if the OW threw him out or disappointed him in some way) It only matters that he is trying to mess with you emotionaly. Don’t let him.
Be strong and call a supportive friend to distract you from this. Leave your phone that he is texting you on in another room.
Take the baby for a walk. Leave phone at home.
Hopefully someone else will give you some other suggestions but this is a begining.
Do something NOW, right this minute, to distract you from this.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:20pm
witsend says:
Henry,
Way to go!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:21pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
Lilsten to witsend, do not even read these things, they are LIES. Think about what he DID, not what he SAYS. They ARE the LIE. He is out to hook you back, do not believe one word. Think of your son if not yourself, do you want your son influenced by a lying, cheating lazy piece of crap? STAY STRONG!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:23pm
blueskies says:
Henry – ‘They get a rush from hurting people and it makes them happy.Calling them evil is unnessessary – We’re animals and your the weak ones.’(waaah!): marvel at the creature, have a little smile of satisfaction at this one revealing itself for what it is in public, and get on with your day!:)xxx:)
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:24pm
OxDrover says:
May I suggest to people that when they see an INAPPROPRIATE POSTER’S COMMENTS that they immediately e mail DONNA?
There are a lot of posts here on this blog, so it is up to US TO HELP DONNA by notifying her of inappropriate bloggers here who come on and make “trouble” or try to or give GROSSLY INAPPROPRIATE “ADVICE.”
Donna does a great job here of keeping this blog safe, but I think too, that it behoves us to help her in a positive way so that she can respond appropriately by eiother privately discussing an inappropriate post with the poster (if it is not something TRULY off the charts) but delete and BAN those that make SUCH TRULY AWFUL COMMENTS. This is one of the greatest sites and the nicest most supportive sites, because Donna in her great wisdom and compassion keeps it SPAM and FLAME “free” as much as is humanly possible.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:29pm
witsend says:
Its done, she was contacted.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:37pm
witsend says:
Bananna,
I hope the reason you are not posting is because you are out walking with the baby. Or doing something to keep you busy and distracted.
Let us know how your doing later.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:52pm
Escapee says:
I find it very amusing that some poor sad lonely sociopath has obviously run out of his supply and is now resorting to a pathetic attempt at baiting people who have much better things do do with their time than read his rubbish! Best laugh I’ve had all day.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 2:56pm
Rosa says:
Do you know “Passer By” and “PassingThrough”?
Friends of yours? or are you all the same person?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:11pm
Rosa says:
http://www.SociopathWorld.net
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:16pm
Escapee says:
Don’t know what Lulz is – could it be:
Lonely, unloved, little zealot?
Looney, unformed lifeless zoo animal
Little utterly lonely zebu (a zebu is a humped domestic ox )
Maybe his ‘lady’ is taking too long in the ktichen whilst she’s busy (hopefully) poisoning his food (he should be careful – has it occured to him that she probably spits in it and worse?).
Who cares? I have much more important and more pleasurable things to do with my time, like bleaching my outside drain – wish it was so easy to get rid of ‘germs’ like him that way!
Chow!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:16pm
Rosa says:
I am also bored, but neither makes me a sociopath.
Ciao.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:24pm
blueskies says:
Peregrine says:
Not only do personality disorders manifest differently in different people, they also manifest differently at different times in the same person. Labels are, in the final analysis, only useful for a very broad understanding of people and disorders.
I am a bit of a scarecrow in the wizard of Oz but I do find what peregrine has to say here very interesting, yes it may only be useful for a broad understanding, but we are not all psychology students here.
It helped me A LOT to be able to recognize a set of traits in this person in order to understand that this person was toxic and in order to move away. It certainly helped me to pin point what was going on with my relationship and to be able to label ‘it’ and start work.
I AM now more and more interested everyday in the ‘nitty gritty’ of personality disorders, and I hope to learn more.
Sometimes the labels DONT work in favor of the victims, some will see them, as with a recent poster, and because the perp doesn’t fit EVERY criteria they discount/disbelieve their toxicity…
All food for thought
Many have said here over and over and oxy has just re-iterated, that what ever these people ARE, that they are TOXIC and DAMAGING our society is the thing!:)
No-that we are here yapping to each other helping eachother and ourselves to get stronger is THE THING! xxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:29pm
JaneSmith says:
Lovely Betty wrote…”The love I sought all my life was waiting in my own heart, and it’s healing me. Love and acceptance do that. I’ve stopped staying afraid: my life is lighted by good people, over-comers, and it’s you. And me, too.”
So profound, so true although I will personally admit I could never be as confident, loving and accepting of myself without the constant mercy and compassion of The Lord.
I was once a lost and scared gal and I would have remained that terrified, sad woman if I hadn’t surrendered my will to the Triune God. And because of that voluntary surrender I am truly liberated. FREE!!
I’m not preaching here, just testifying. Sharing my journey with you all.
You know, I’ve noticed a wonderful dynamic working within each of us. We are all so intense, so passionate, with an incredible amount of depth encompassing all parameters and levels. We are all searchers, seekers of truth, knowledge.
I sincerely believe that because of our innate superb characters, our big fat hearts, our unswerving convictions, our indomitable emotional, psychological, intellectual and spiritual components, we all embody the absolute of what it means to be a human being.
The others? Clueless, bereft, empty and soulless. Subject to our pity but we reserve our compassion for those who genuinely need and deserve it: the innocents.
Say it with me, you beautiful people…NO CONTACT TO FUTURE PREDATORS! We are warriors. We ARE the strongest of the strong because we always choose to be good rather than take the weak, spineless choice of choosing to be evil.
Evil sucks. We do not.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:49pm
Escapee says:
Well said Jane and very ‘pointed’.
Thanks.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 3:51pm
JaneSmith says:
Thanks Escapee…how ya doin, sweetie?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:03pm
Tilly says:
There goes the dying Zokletluz passingthru! lol!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:05pm
Escapee says:
Jane
Good actually. Still in the financial mire and no work at present but keeping a handle on my sanity. Lots of walking in the lovely hills of Derbyshire and cycling in Cheshire today (very muddy) but joyous company and my lovely daughter back from holiday tomorrow – so lots to look forward to.
Hoping that your good god (or anyone’s really) is taking care of the rest.
Thanks.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:10pm
JaneSmith says:
Escapee…You know I like and care for you, right? I don’t judge anyone on how they choose to live their life. I’m a sinner and I am flawed, with my own set of those quirky things and foibles.
Only when I am acutely aware that evil is happening do I put on my discerning cap. You are loved and don’t you forget it, okay?…xxooxxoo…
Oh, and ya know, I’ve been kickin around on this other open forum for about a month or two, chatting with other like minded folks having mildly heated debates and mutual agreements talk fests.
I kid you not, it seems as soon as I post a comment then…bam!bam!bam!…the predators sleeze their way out of the sewer, crawl out from under that filthy rock they live under and fruitlessly attempt to “hurt” me or to “offend” me by saying such pathetic drivel, such profane and evil crap.
I can’t even summon an ounce of righteous fury for them unless they are directing their caustic slime towards others. Then, I go to town.
Heck, I just call them evil, while utilizing my firm grasp of the English language, not using foul language to communicate my meaning. I won’t feed their daily narcissistic supply requirements. AS IF!
These base creatures must be some of the most loneliest, bored individuals on the planet to waste time striving to cause chaos and disruption on the flippin internet. It’s so absurd and ridiculous that instead of being “hurt” or “angry”, I have me a few hearty belly laughs over their pettiness.
Funny thing is, many of those freaks are males in the late 30s and 40s! How pathetic is that! Guess it’s a myth that “with age comes wisdom.”
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:24pm
Escapee says:
JaneSmith
Thanks Jane. It’s very kind of you.
I got caught out earlier on another thread by some lowlife and actually put an indirect response on the blog (feel a bit of an idiot once I realised, truth be told) but at least my radar went up quite quickly and I am pretty pleased that I didn’t understand immediately what the scumbag was referring to (sicko) – However, it did amuse me that he very quickly vented his obvious frustration that he was being ignored! Just another endorsement of how very pathetic these types are. All strength to us!
Amazing just how quickly they revert to type isn’t it?
Re wisdom – I’m hoping for a ‘late surge’!!!!
All love
E x
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:38pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sweet Jane,
Spirituality, I think, is a part of the human “being” that goes along with a concept of conscience, which of course, the psychopaths of course do not have….of course, they sometimes learn the “Words” (but not the TUNE) as Dr. robert Hare so nicely noted.
Anyone with a conscience of some sort, obviously has a spiritual aspect of some sort, regarless of whether they think of it ias God, a “higher power” or the “Universe”—the ingredient of some spiritual aspect to life is lacking in the psychopath, which allows them to prey on others without any remorse or pity.
To me, the spiritual aspect (in whatever form) is important to our recovery! For me, disengaging myself from my egg donor’s opinions about God, allowed me to develop my spirituality and my closeness with my creator—my loving Father, not the psychopathic punisher that she envisioned as “God” and taught me to fear, but not love. No one who “inspires”others with FEAR to follow them has any true “followers,” only those who are afraid not to pretend to “love” them.
To me, following a spiritual path of love allows me to be at peace, rather than a constant anxiety about trying to placate the psychopathic diety and his enablers.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 4:56pm
Escapee says:
Oxy
Lovely post to Jane and a poignant and peaceful note to retire on.
thanks.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 5:18pm
JaneSmith says:
Nite Nite, Escapee, sweet dreams from those of us who live across the pond from you.
And, Oxypooh, I concur. You and I and others are always on the same page. That’s why I love visiting this site. So many excellent peeps that I will most likely never have the honor to meet in person, so I care for and enjoy them via the interwebby.
xxooxxoooxxxooo!!1!!!
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 6:27pm
willIeverbehealed says:
Hello, everyone, This is my first time posting on this site. Hopefully you can help me understand my former situation.
I was involved with a Narcissist who had some qualities of the S/P. He was charming, cruel, generous (when I towed the line), vindictive, hated himself, intelligent, deceitful, religious, depressed, good sense of humor, unforgiving, had that “you and the world owe me whatever I want” attitude, never wrong, etc. A very complex, mixed up control freak.
Ours was a very stormy relationship, as I was always trying to please him, would inadvertently screw up and then pay for it with his outbursts of anger, pulling back, making me out to be the guilty party when indeed I wasn’t, getting the silent treatment. When I would confront him with his unreasonableness, he would twist what I said and turn things around so that I was always the bad guy. He was a shell of a human being, absorbing from people their good qualities that he so desperately wanted but did not possess, and would mirror these back to people as the situation required.
He would tell me that he loved me, couldn’t live without me, and that I was THE woman for him. It became a situation in which I felt possessed by him, and as though I could never escape. I tried many times to break off this sick relationship, but would always apologize for offending him and go back. Then he would buy me presents and be oh-so-nice until I did something that ticked him off, and the cycle would repeat. I was always too much of something or not enough of something else. I could never figure out what it was I was doing wrong.
After several years of this, I finally had enough and told him in no uncertain terms that I was breaking off the relationship. I felt really strong and had no problem sticking with my decision. He was angry and closed off ar first, but really nice the last few days before he killed himself in my presence. He had planned the suicide, as I found out in a note he had left me.
I know he was depressed, but I am trying to make sense of it all. His cruelty is so confusing to me. I think the most cruel thing you can do to someone, short of killing them, is to kill yourself in their presence. Where did his religion come in? Why didn’t that help him? I’m trying to forgive him because I read that that will release me so that he no longer has control over me. How could I have been so dumb as to not see what this guy was really like? Am I that screwed up? I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to forgive myself for being so stupid. It has cost me dearly.
Thanks for any help anyone can offer.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 8:35pm
banana says:
I am here.
Had a long day. After that continued to get texts.
I went to therapy then out to the farm market, the grocery store and target. getting- on, getting over.
Returned “home” (I live with a friend) and was sitting in the drive talking to my mom about how and why I fall for this crap.
I realize with the help of my therapist that I don’t feel worthy of love and don’t love myself. That’s why I can’t believe my friends and family actually love me, but when STBXP begs and pleads for me it lifts my self-esteem.
he showed up at the house!!
I listened to him again. I stood my ground but couldn’t ask him to leave.
My girlfriend told him to leave or she’d call the cops and I went inside, as my mom was on the phone.
I don’t know how my mom puts up with this crap form me.
He texted me again that I could take my son. So I met him later at BK. I hate that I give an ear to him, but I told him I was going through with the divorce and I told him it was simply advice that I was giving him to move out and see a certified sex addiction therapist; that I didn’t care whether he stayed with his GF and married her and had kids and lived happily ever after (he insists this cannot happen).
BTW I have no way of really diagnosing STBX as a P, and OUR marriage counselor whom he only met once said he is probably NPD, but most likely has a PD.
I am okay, but those web-threads are sticky. I told him not to contact me again, and my attorney has been advised and will call his attorney tomorrow about him showing up at my residence.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 8:56pm
Matt says:
willbehealed:
First, welcome. You are in a place of healing and learning. I always tell people this site was a Godsend to me — I was ready to commit suicide by the time I drove the S from my life.
As to what he was — an N/S/P/Borderline — the diagnosis doesn’t matter. All cluster-B personality disordered people are toxic to the people they are involved with.
These relationships are all about control. The cruelty, the geneorisity, the manipulation, the deceitfulness, the sense of entitlement. These non-human vehicles of discord will use whatever means possible to keep you in line. Clearly, when you found the strength to break things off, he lost control. And what better way to assert perpetual, beyond the grave control over you than to kill himself in front of you.
His religion didn’t come into play. His depression didn’t come into play. This was all about control and he chose the most hellish, heinous, hateful, vindictive way to go about getting in the last word with you.
Kathy Hawke has done a great series of articles on this site on the stages of healing from a sociopath. One is one forgiveness. However, I don’t think you are there yet. My take, and I’m willing to admit I”m wrong if you say so, is that you are still at the blame/anger phase. The beating yourself up in the “how could I have been so dumb as to not see what this guy was really like? Am I that screwed up? I don’t know if I”ll ever be able to forgive myself for being so stupid…” to me indicates that you are not at forgiveness.
If you don’t go through all the steps, you can’t get to forgiveness. In my case I’m moved on with my life, but there is no forgiveness in me toward S. LIke you, mine cost me dearly. Quite frankly, if I can get him sent back to prison I will do so. To force forgiveness wouldn’t be healthy for me — at least not at this point in time.
There are a lot of good articles on this site. If you haven’t read them, I recommend “Without Conscience” by Robert Hare, “The Sociopath Next Door” by Martha Stout, and “The Betrayal Bond” by Patrick Carnes. All three gave me a lot of the answers to the very questions you are asking of yourseelf.
I don’t know if any of this helps. And there are others on this site who may have other opinions — we may sometimes fight like hell, but, we always fight fair and make up nicely – so you’ll get a lot of viewpoints and, most important, validation of what you’ve been through.
Once again, welcome. You are in a place of healing.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:10pm
Matt says:
banana:
Don’t know if you saw them, but there are a lot of responses to your earlier post today.
Hang in there, GF. It will get better.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:12pm
banana says:
I am a little confused because my post is not in this blog but another.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:30pm
witsend says:
Dear willIeverbehealed,
I am so sorry that you had to go through this. FIRST off there is nothing wrong with you. You are not stupid or screwed up. There was nothing you could have done to predict this or to prevent it…..
Suicide “feels” like the ULTIMATE F____ YOU. I know this because I have been there. My husband commited suicide. Not in my presence but when our 3 1/2 year old son was with him.
Him taking his life in front of you was cruel. BEYOND cruel. You will never be able to make sense out of that. Because it is beyond comprehension. Just as it was for my husband to do this with his child there.
Suicide is a hard death to grieve. The “why” question that you ask over and over and over again hinders the initial grieving process. Trying to make sense out of a sensless act.
Grief is a long process, a journey…..You will be sad, angry, depressed, hurt, and more….You might feel emotions that you might be totally unfamiliar with all at the same time. Or be really angry one minute and then very sad the next. The emotions will be complex and exhausting at times.
Forgiving him will take some time. BUT forgive yourself, right now. You did NOTHING to deserve this. NOTHING.
Because of the overwhelming emotions that a suicide victim(you are the vicim of his act) faces I would read some books on suicide survival. I wish I could recomend some by name but it has been a long time since I read the books and I have given them all out to others in need to read over the years.
Go to the library. I will say that the most HELPFUL books that I read where authored by suicide survivors themselves. Not the ones written by the “doctors” but books written by mothers who lost children, wives who lost husbands etc. These people have been there…..Nothing clinical in the books but all about healing and where & HOW to begin.
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 9:33pm
justabouthealed says:
Oh my god, willieverbehealed. You have had a terrible double strike….the emotional rape and the suicide. My bad man was suicidal at times and made sure I knew it, would thank me for “saving my life” and then shortly thereafter dump me again. I think they are SO addicted to “winning” that they will shoot themselves in the foot, cut their nose off to spite their face, or commit suicide to “win”. What an unbelievably cruel thing to have done to you. UNBELIEVABLE. Reaching up from the grave to continue the torture. Don’t let him win. It will take time. Be ever so gentle and loving to yourself. This is worse than a physical rape. This is worse than being beat up. Go easy on yourself. Any hassle you can remove from your life, do so. You might go even to your regular doctor and explain what has happened and ask for their recommendation. Some medication for the next 6 months to a year might help you as you go through the healing process…or not, depending on how you feel. I hope you can get some counseling. this is so much to deal with.
Having said that, there are others on here who have faced terrible tragedies and survived and healed.
When will you be healed? It is going to take some time. Be patient. Do KNOW and BELIEVE that what you are feeling is temporary, it WILL get better. It WILL.
Love and hugs to you.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:05pm
justabouthealed says:
PS I have a girlfriend whose father hung himself in front of her. Of course she rescued him. But he blamed it all on her, even though she was the one who actually saved his life!!!
She is well and happy today. There is a way out to happiness again.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:08pm
ANewLily says:
willIeverbehealed, I am glad you are here to gain the solace from friends (even if we are strangers) that you so sorely need right now.
First, you are NOT to blame for any of this, especially his final exit. Matt said it well, he said, “Clearly, when you found the strength to break things off, he lost control. And what better way to assert perpetual, beyond the grave control over you than to kill himself in front of you?”
YOU WERE NOT STUPID, YOU WERE DUPED — right from the start!
[And you were lucky in a way. He killed himself and not you. Mine tried to kill ME for daring to leave him! I learned that narcissiopaths can’t STAND to lose control of their chosen partner. Their inner rage is common at that point and part of the pattern of the N/S/P.
This paragraph describes my life and experiences with a narcissiopath very well: “He was charming, cruel, generous (WHEN I TOED THE LINE), vindictive, hated himself, intelligent, deceitful, religious, depressed, good sense of humor, unforgiving, had that “you and the world owe me whatever I want” attitude, never wrong, etc. A very complex, mixed up CONTROL FREAK (my caps)
On the other hand, I’m not sure mine “hated himself.” I think he just had deep love for himself and didn’t have the capacity to love others. But he sure played a good act!
I felt stupid for being so blind and accommodating, too. A very good counselor demanded that I forget the word, stupid, and others like it like “if only…” and “I should have…”
I wish I could be more helpful to you — but frankly I am feeling such grief for you, I can hardly type what I did. I CARE!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:19pm
justabouthealed says:
williever–
Here is a fair use quote from a newsletter from Sandra Brown:”Think ‘Zen Retreat Center’ — a subdued environment where your senses can rest…where a body that has been too pumped up with adrenaline can let down…a mind that races can relax, the video flash-backs can go on pause, fast-paced chest panting can turn into long/slow/deep diaphragmatic breathing, where darting eyes can close, where soft scents soothe, and gentle music lulls, where high heels come off and flip flops go on…where long quiet walks give way to tension release…where quieting of the mind chases off the demons of hyperactive thinking….where when you whisper you can hear yourself.
Only, this isn’t a retreat center for once a year…this is your life where your recovery and your need for all things-gentle, are center in your life. It doesn’t mean you need to quit your job or move to a mountain, but it does mean that you attend to your over-stimulated physical body. Those things in your life you can control such as the tranquility of your own environment need to be. Lifestyle adjustments ARE required for those who want to avoid reactivated anxiety. This includes psychological/emotional, physical, sexual, and spiritual self care techniques.”
http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/ under ads refers to a new inpatient hospital treatment to help victims of bad men heal. They have an assessment tool to qualify you and some insurance covers treatment. FINALLY!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 10:20pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Betty,
Your post from Monday evening was something I just now read (don’t know how I missed it)
Betty, to me, having been raised in a FAMILY of DRY “alcoholics” and people trained to ENABLE them, I realize that my entire upbringing centered around the use/non-use of alcohol, that had been passed on for generations of abusive drunks and submissive “fixing” women.
The only one in the family who actually drank was my egg donor’s brother Uncle MONSTER–when he was sober, he was a great guy! when he was drunk he was a MONSTER—and he knew when and where he could be the monster and when he had to be sober, so he was VERY deliberate about keeping these two worlds and faces separate.
Some others have mentioned that it was the ALCOHOL that brought out the P-BEHAVIOR that the person wasn’t a person who behaved like a P when they were sober…..now look at it this way. Alcohol DIS-INHIBITS a person. For example, I cannot sing well, but I love to sing, so if I get a few drinks I will start to SING and I sound SO GOOD to myself. When I am sober, I realize my singing sounds bad so I am inhibited by my knowledge that me singing is not a good idea. But the alcohol takes away that judgment and inhibition and so when I am tipsy I SING.
The person who is a mean drunk would LIKE TO BE MEAN ALL THE TIME but for whatever reason he is INHIBITED from doing these mean thing, but the alcohol takes away the inhibitions and the socill inhibitions from doing what he really WANTS to do sober but is afraid to do.
Uncle MONSTER’S REAL FACE was uncovered by the alcohol. His “mr. Nice Guy” face was a FAKE, the REAL face was the monster. I think that is a pretty much given with people and the REAL person is the one you see when they are drunk, and the sober person is the one that they put on for the “world” to see.
I realize also that there are some genetic links to being addicted to alcohol and/or drugs, etc. however, a person who cared about his/her family would not continue to drink when they realized what they did when they were drunk. Therefore I think if a person is a “nasty drunk” they would like to be a sober nasty person, but just don’t have the guts. So, my assessment is if a person is a P when they are drunk, they are a cowardly P when sober, just not ACTING out quite so much. Same opinions, smae no conscience, just no guts unless they are drunk.
Many people I have known in AA were “sober” but they were STILL arseholes who were so “righteous” about being sober, but they still treated others badly and/or they were outright Psychopathic–I believe the term to describe them in AA is “dry drunk” meaning they are nasty folks sober or drunk, behaving as if disinhibited by booze.
I never saw the similarity of my “non-drinking” family and the families around me whose “daddy” was a drunk. In fact, in my family there was PRIDE that we were somehow MORE HOLY and better behaved than most of the neighbors, more honest, more up right etc. What a crock of crap. It wasn’t what we lived, it was what we tried to make the rest of the community see. Behavior was based on “what would the neighbors think?” And so as long as the family covered up or pretended that we were a “nice, normal family” they were secure in the falsehood that we were “better” than others.
Betty, so many of us share your “upbringing” that makes us primed to walk on egg shells and keep the secrets of the psychopaths—dry or drunk–but at the same time, we are the flip side of the coin of no caring, we care TOO much, which leaves us open to abuse.
\
The psychopath will and can enve rlearn to care, but we can and are learning to focus our caring in a productive way for ourselves and not to throw away our love and caring to the psychopaths at our own peril.
jesus advised his followers “not to cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them into the mire and turn and rend you.” We also should not cast our pearls of caring before the swine of the psychopath, because s/he will turn and tear us up.
Betty your wonderful and compassionate post to Tilly about her instructor in ARt school, and linking to your story was so kind and caring, filled with empathy and compassion. It made me want to reach out and give you a big cyber ((((Hug)))) and thank you for being such a giving person. I’m glad you are healing and coming to peace with that terrible ordeal. Love Oxy
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Tuesday, 21 July 2009 @ 11:29pm
almost_free says:
Love the description of the narcissistic sociopath. I sat across from my ex last week after having no contact for over 6 months. He is truly both N and S. I told him he was evil and to look at himself… he rolled his eyes, chuckled, and said “you believe what you want to believe”, just as he had done to me for years… planting that seed of doubt. I actually had some type of out of body experience while sitting across from him – I could hear my own voice and it was so distracting that I sounded ridiculous. Has anyone ever had that happen?
His manipulation of me no longer works like it used to… I still shake and have PTSD on occasion, but now that I’m filled with the knowledge of who he is and how he operates, it doesn’t consume me like it used to. It saddens me for my children, but they are learning early on that people without conscience exist in this world, and the rest of us have to protect ourselves from them. It’s sad, but true.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 12:32am
banana says:
I told my STBXP that he (was evil) had evil inside of him and he cried and pleaded that he didn’t.
Yeah. I don’t hold a lot back.
Heck if I weren’t as smart as I am I’d say “Hey. You’re a sociopath. Why would i want anything to do with you?”
But I did basically accuse him of each of the characteristics.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 1:02am
PInow says:
Banana, I toyed with fire when I did say that to him. I had brought all the wrath upon myself.
Just now had a curious conversation with a (self proclaimed) vampire. He said mine was subbocai. Interesting, how in each belief, each tale, each historical event the evil of the world has those same characteristics. I just remembered, mine – hated garlic, LOL
Stay safe. They are worthless useless beings, who live off of others.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 1:07am
henry says:
Sorry if I offended anybody earlier today when I (flamed). That asshole that was on this thread has the same male narcissist mentality that my father and brother have. Guess when your born with out a conscience you just don’t understand people that do have one. I guess with out a conscience you dont need values or morals either…anyway it got deleted _ thank you Donna and again sorry for my outburst…
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:13am
Tilly says:
Matt:
Your last post about forgiveness and not forcing it, really helped me. I am “no contact” the same length of time as you…(Around 8/9 months…length of a pregnancy!)
Even though I am not able to “passively thru 3rd person derail the ex p” , ( I WISH !) I am STARTING to get the detachment you spoke of earlier. I get guilty (F>O>G) so easily because of being brought up by my P paraplegic mother . And when others talk about “you should have let go and forgiven by now”, all I feel is guilt.
But you right, I don’t want to pretend I have forgiven when I haven’t. But the good news is I am STARTING to get the detached feeling.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:36am
henry says:
WillIeverbehealed -Your post was beautifully written, even tho it describes a very sick man. My heart goes out to you. My X cut his wrist in an attempt to prove his love for me. That was so traumatic too me, I can’t imagine the pain you must feel. But please know that you were just involved with a very sick person and there was nothing you could do. It was his way of making you pay , trying to screw up the rest of your life – please dont let him win…
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:42am
Tilly says:
Williever..:
“I don’t know how my mom puts up with this crap from me.
He texted me again that I could take my son. So I met him later at BK.”
Do you hear/ see what you are saying/doing?
If you keep doing the same thing you are going to get the same result but it will escalate/snowball.
Your mum and your girlfriend won’t be there to take your crap and there won’t be any son to pick up anymore.
Once he realises that you are fair dinkum this is gonna get really ugly.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:44am
bunny says:
Tilly, I laughed when you were describing the snakes and spiders in Australia. There was a program on cable about the dangerous underwater creatures in Australia.
They had just covered the blue ringed octopus saying how deadly it was and right after that they covered the stone fish and they were saying how excruciating the pain of that sting is.
The guy said when you get stung by a stone fish you run straight back into the water and try find youself an octopus to put you out of your misery.
What an alternative!!! It was hilarous.
But I’m with you, I don’t think that narcissists feel shame at all, and there are some who don’t give a toss about being seen in a bad light – as long as they are seen. They would DO ANYTHING – just to be noticed.
One told me that the worst thing about her childhood was that she felt invisible, as if she didn’t exist at all. Very strange.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 4:51am
bunny says:
there was an interesting biography about that musician Warren Zevon, who turns out to have been a colorful character.
He used to get smashed and then beat up on his wife. After so many years of that she decided to leave him, but thought to hang around one morning to show him the bruises that he had given her the night before.
His reaction?
How could you be so evil as to think I could do something like that. So he castigated her for that as well.
Was he a narcissist – I don’t know, but it was a statement I’m sure many here would have heard or could relate to.
An ameliorating point to make though was that when he was diagnosed with some awful terminal cancer, he decided not to take the treatment that might have extended his life by some months or so – in favor of keeping the money for the kids college fees.
That act of sacrifice and the putting others first, probably indicates he wasn’t a narcissist at all – but what an interesting study he makes.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 4:59am
bunny says:
willieverbehealed, what did he say in his letter, did he blame it all on you? That is just the most awful story, did he kill himself in a fit of pique that you had the audacity to leave him?
Anyway the best thing you can do is to try and get on with your life, confident that you will see him again on the other side, on safe ground and surrounded by protective healers.
That is the biggest load he has left you carrying and I’m sure he would be so full of remorse looking at what he has done to you from the other side.
I think the thing you need to do is forgive youself, even the blameless would blame themselves after something like that……….he has really put you in the impossible situation, good luck
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 5:15am
banana says:
I guess what I am getting at is that I wonder if my STBX is a P afterall. He is definitely a pathological liar and manipulator.
Since he has been begging me to come back, I just keep firm on going through with the divorce.
*if he’s a changed man in a year, maybe I’ll think about dating.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:24am
Matt says:
banana:
Re-read Dr Hare’s list of signifiers of sociopathy which Donna has listed on this site. As he makes clear, you don’t have to have all the criteria to be a socipath. Just a few should be enough for you to go running in the other direction from these creatures. Pathologial lying (aka deceitfulness) and manipulation are two of the criteria. ‘Enuf said.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:47am
Matt says:
banana:
Also, Ss don’t change. They are perfectly happy with the way they are, their tears and pleas notwithstanding. He’s not going to change, so you shouldn’t even waste your precious time thinking about dating him and returning to the craziness. Your’s is running the pity ploy, plain and simple.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:49am
gogettergirl says:
This article puts a full description of each type and helps me understand how they overlap.
The Narcissist description perfectly describes my mother. What do you do when you mother is a Rock Star? She’s the most attention seeking human being I’ve ever met in my life and cons everybody into thinking that she’s special. You should see the way people dote on her and cater to her every whim. She never calls or wants to see you and can’t be bothered unless you’re willing to kiss her ass. No wonder why I’m such a “lost child”!
This is hysterical. I finally have a name to what she is. Thanks, Steve
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:19pm
gogettergirl says:
I also have a sister who’s narcissistic. I’ve always known that though.
She’s also an attention hound, but in a harrassing, bullying, control freak kind of way. She absolutely will not listen anyone’s opinion but her own and will ram her fist down your throat if you defy her. My father was just like her. Now I can see why I got conned and manipulated by an S!
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:29pm
witsend says:
willIeverbehealed,
Please let us know that you are all right. This is a good place for healing.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 2:43pm
ThePeregrine says:
WillIEverBeHealed:
I think Matt answered most of your questions as well as anyone can. For some questions, there are no answers that satisfy.
I can tell you that it is very common for people who commit suicide to do so in such a way that they “punish” those they think have wronged them. Most often, they arrange to be found by the person they want to punish. It’s not so common for a person to commit suicide with an audience, and I’m very sorry this is something you witnessed.
Based on your description of him, it sounds as though you are a caring person. But a sociopath really doesn’t care about other people in the way you do. Sociopaths assign value to other people according to how USEFUL we are in helping them to meet their needs.
I don’t think it’s unusual for them to experience real pain and anxiety about the way they live their lives. But in the end, a sociopath can’t take responsibility for any of that, and needs to put the blame on someone else.
The key thing for you to know here, because you were that someone to him, is that the people a sociopath blames for his suffering are almost never deserving of any of that responsibility. We all make choices in life, and we all bear the consequences of our choices. The sociopath spends inordinate amounts of time rationalizing his/her behavior and finding other people to blame for his/her misfortune. The sociopath makes US pay the price.
You did not deserve this, and you deserve better in the future. You are not stupid. We all can do only what we know how to do at the time. I was 48 years old when I had my first experience with a sociopath, and she nearly killed me. I learned from the experience and will not make that mistake again. Neither will you.
Peace,
Jeff
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 3:13pm
Tilly says:
bunny:
People think often think I am exagerating when I talk but I RARELY do. The stone fish is like the psychopath when you first meet them. I.E A pretty little rock on the reef, lying amongst all the other shells. LYING is right!!! Like in our lives with the psychopath, there are not enough signs around to warn you of the excruciating pain and sudden death you will experience should you accidently step on a stone fish.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 5:31pm
Tilly says:
P.S. The signs say, “warning stone fish, wear shoes”. lol!
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 5:32pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To MATT,
Thanks for your encouragement. I did read the article on “forgiving” and I think you’re right, I’m not there yet. I’m still angry/hurt at the hands of my former N/S/P. I think of the suicide and surrounding trauma over the last several years every day. Perhaps it is because I cannot give up hope on people (I always think they can/will change) that I am still stunned at the depth of his anger/vindictiveness/cruelty. Conversely, I still miss him at times, the man who was fun, intelligent, loving. But thoughts come into my mind; was he really those things? He seemed to be, but maybe those were tactics to keep me hooked. Maybe it really was all about his control over me and what I gave him.
I know one thing; you don’t kill yourself in front of someone you love. He most likely was incapable of loving anyone, including himself.
I will read the rest of Kathy Hawke’s articles, as I so want to be past this whole mess, and really heal from the inside out.
Thanks again for your helpful comments.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:32pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To Witsend,
Thank you for your comments; I can really relate to what you said about the jumble of emotions coming all at once, being complex and exhausting. How true this is. I vacillate wildly, remembering how close we were at first and how wonderful it all was, and then how horrible things turned out. Such a contrast, it seems like a bad dream.
I know I should forgive myself, but I can’t help but think that I should have seen what this guy was really like. He told me things I wanted to hear, things that no one had ever said to me. I was hooked. He was so clever and good at it, though, I believed he really loved me. I’m angry at myself for being gullible.
I’ll look at the books you suggested , written by suicide survivors. Thanks again.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:42pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To justabouthealed,
You know, I never thought about the possibility that he killed himself as the ultimate way to “win”. I also had not thought about the “emotional rape” I’ve endured, but that’s what it was during those years.
I’m trying to remove the remaining stress from my life, but it is difficult. For a long time now, I haven’t wanted to get out or see people, although my friends have said this is something I need to do. Talking helps a great deal, and thankfully there is this blog site where caring people who have experienced trauma understand and can offer advice and friendship.
Will trying to forgive myself, treating myself well, and being gentle with myself help to heal me? It sounds so selfish to be giving myself all that attention.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:53pm
willIeverbehealed says:
ANewLily
Just from your user name, it sounds as though you have come out on the other side from a terrible situation. Then there is hope for me. How I wish it were years from now, then this would be behind me and I could get on with my life. I’ll hear a song and I begin to cry, wistful and angry at the same time. Sometimes the “if only” scenario replays in my mind and I play the self-blame game. Certain times of day are difficult for me, and tears, regret, sadness, and pain wash over me. At least the stress of his presence is something that I no longer have to endure.
I’ve begun to notice that N/S/P seem to be everywhere, and now I am afraid of being attracted to one again. I’m still vulnerable at this stage, and certainly not strong enough yet.
It helps so much to know that you and others are genuinely reaching out to help me. Thanks so much.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:08pm
willIeverbehealed says:
henry,
thanks for your note of encouragement, saying that there was nothing I could do about n’s suicide. Yes, he tried his best to screw up my life, and for a long time he was successful, but enough is enough. I do not want him to win, I’m just not sure how to make that happen.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:14pm
banana says:
Just commenting on the article and an early post…
“I decided to ask if he EVER said how much he LOVED ME – but the answer has always been ” Well, no -not in those exact words. But , OH, he spoke so HIGHLY of you.””
WOW newlife08:
I got this too, and didn’t even think of it until I read this.
He was always to proud of me, even saying such things directly to me, “no one’s better than you”, but did he flaunt how in love he was? No. Just how great I was, what an artist I was, how talented I was, how smart I was, what a good cook, and mother.
Again. my mother pulled out some medical books and it seems
my P is a little bit of all the following, but not entirely either one of them Antisocial, Narcissistic, bi-polar, histrionic.
This book was about 10 years old though. It did not mention psychopaths or sociopaths at all.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:17pm
willIeverbehealed says:
bunny,
In his note he said it was losing me that caused him to take his life. Of course, I immediately felt guilty for calling off our relationship. You, know, if I had given in again, he’d still be alive, so it really was my fault anyway. But I just could not go on.
He really did not have “remorse” in this life for anything; I can only hope he has it in the next life.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:26pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To The Peregrine,
Thanks for your insight into the S/P complexities. Yes, I believe he killed himself to get back at me, for any slight, real or imagined, that he received at my hand. You know, I was trying to deal with someone I thought was just a little out of whack, not realizing that that would never work with a N/S/P. But then again, I didn’t realize what he was until after the suicide.
You are correct in saying that ’sociopaths…need to put the blame on someone else”. He was constantly blaming everyone else for things he did that were wrong. He did not take ANY responsibility for his actions. He was never wrong (so he thought). The issue there is just plain pride..ugly, stubborn pride. Maybe this is wrong to say, but I’m relieved that he is gone.
Thanks for your concerns, and your faith that I will not repeat my mistakes.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:41pm
Tilly says:
It was definitely NOT your fault!!! That is inverted egotism ( I think I made that term up, Im not sure), to think that!!! He thought he could manipulate you but it was nothing to do with actually YOU. If it was to do with you then, he wouldn’t have killed himself. He had to blame everyone else, especially you, to get the outcome he thought he would get. But he didn’t get it.
Guilt is a wasted emotion. And he certainly didn’t care how YOU felt ! Not even one tiny little bit!
If you had given in, he would NOT be alive!! His number was up!
The worst thing you can do for everyone and YOURSELF is carry on believing this and especially expressing it!! You leave no option for anyone except to feel sorry for you and pity you, (which I HATE people feeling toward me!).
GET DOWN OFF THER CROSS!! WE NEED THE WOOD !!!(TO HELP BUILD YOU A BRIDGE BACK TO SANITY!!).
” IF I had given in again, he’d still be alive, so it really was my fault anyway”.
That is like my psychopath mother, telling me my whole life, (when my P father broke her neck in front of me at age 5) and she became a paraplegic, ” It is your fault that i am a paraplegic, it is all your fault!” And my p father’s name for me wasn’t “honey”, it was “where the good-for-nothin-useless-bastard?” He never called me by my name. THAT was/ is my name to him and her.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 9:51pm
Tilly says:
Willieverbehealed:
How did he kill himself?
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 10:05pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
willIeverbehealed,
I’ve been reading your posts and meant to write you earlier. I’m so sorry for what you’ve been through.
You mentioned the article on forgiving, and you’re right, it’s not time for that yet. If you want to read the whole series, start from the beginning. You’ll recognize yourself more in the first articles.
The earliest stages of recovery involve a lot of confusion and mixed feelings. I remember in my early days, I just wanted to figure out a way of talking about it that made sense. (And your original post was amazingly lucid, much more insightful than mine would have been when I was still trying to understand it all.)
The big shift is when you get angry. And that will come in its own time. Right now, your biggest challenge is probably to keep finding or creating positive moments in your life.
The best thing I saw you write is that you don’t want him to win. That’s a really good position to take. Their whole psychology is about winning and being one-up. And even though that’s not the way most of us negotiate the world, dealing with them forces us to be concerned with it. Because they will make us losers, if they can.
What your ex did was unconscionable. And calculated. One of the greatest challenges we face with dealing with and recovering from interactions with N/S/P types is the need to turn off our own empathy, just to survive. For some of us, our earliest anger has been about our fear that we have become sociopaths, just in dealing with them.
Don’t worry. That’s not true. But stopping caring about them, disqualifying them mentally from the concern and respect we ordinarily give to other people, is part of recovery. We ultimately come to recognize that we should not be giving what we don’t receive from another person.
You sound good. I’m glad you’re relieved that he’s gone. You should be. Unlike many of us, you’re going to be able to take your life back without further punishment, and you’ll work out the knots in your emotional system.
If you’d like some really good advice about what to do for yourself right now, there’s an article by M.L. Gallagher. You can find her name under the author’s in the left-hand column. It’s the next to the last piece, where she talks about what she is doing today. In it, she also talks about steps she took at the beginning of her recovery. Very smart steps by an essentially positive person.
Welcome to LoveFraud. I’m glad you found us.
Namaste.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 10:13pm
newlife08 says:
Bnnana,
Unfortunately, it is all in hindsight that I am learning all the clues I missed.
Yes, he was so proud of me …..no, I think he was proud to POSSESS me – as if having someone GOOD love him would validate that he was worthy – like being able to afford a new car – or looking like you can before the car gets repossessed for non-payment.
If you could have heard him today when I would not COMPLY with his latest demands, I am now ” A MISERABLE BIT$$ who is going to be sorry-really regret what you are doing”
Yes, everytime I don’t see things his way – he becomes punishing. He is behind in support -playing games – and
I am supposed to just accept it.
So he is now threatening to demand a psych eval for custody to prove what a nut case I am.
Doesn’t scare me anymore – 3 counselors have concluded NPD/S for his behaviors already.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 10:21pm
Tilly says:
KH:
“For some of us, our earliest anger has been about our fear that we have become sociopaths, just in dealing with them”.
Kathleen you hit the nail on the head here for me ! That was my biggest fear wwhen i first came here as my anger was so intense!
.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 10:25pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tilly,
Backed-up anger is like that. But I think I told you that I love your anger. Some people learn to have fun with it while they’re plotting to change the world. You, Rosa and Oxy make a great team. If we could get Oxy off her ass (donkey), I could imagine the three of you in armor on white stallions riding around like the seven samurai with your blazing swords, spreading the word and neutralizing bad guys everywhere.
(I’ll leave the definition of “neutralizing” to your imagination. Personally I’d like to put them into solitary confinement with low-protein vegetarian diet, nothing to read but Nicholas Sparks novels, and computer chess games that give them candy bars when they lose.)
I have a friend who has had a couple of rounds with anger, but she still didn’t like it. I finally convinced her to just get into it. And she’s finally enjoying it, cutting through all kinds of relationships and situations that needed to be cleaned up in her life.
Ultimately the goal is to just make it a part of our everyday reactivity and processing, as normal and natural as the rest of our reactions. It’s rejecting and stuffing it that makes it toxic. If we deeply experience it, we can use the energy to take care of necessary business, and then it passes when the need is gone. And we feel more at home in the world because of it.
I have a theory that very few of us were good at anger before the sociopaths came into our lives. It’s one of the things they teach us, but we, being feeling people, can use it much more consciously in pursuit of positive results not just for ourselves, but the greater good.
Or that’s what I think…
Namaste.
Kathy
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 11:22pm
Leah says:
Kathleen,
I described the book in detail in another post. So I won’t repeat it here. You really should read Emotional Resiliance by David Viscott as he writes in some detail about the toxicity of “stuffed”anger. Perhaps you’ve already read some of his books. If not, that particular one may have value for you as you put together your book.
On an unrelated note, I feel odd saying this but I’m probably the only who finds the word “namaste”a trigger. It fine to keep using it. I have a colleague in another department who loves to end her emails with it. My ex-vampire and his enabler/bagman are both from India.
If I had your writing skills and decided to to write Weird and Wild Tales from the Cluster B Jungle, those two nasty (albeit well-connected) creatures would provide a veritable treasure trove of “I can’t believe they were stupid enough to do that, but hey they got away with it” stories.
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Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 11:45pm
shabbychic says:
Leah… you should write a book, you’ve already got a great title for it! LMAO!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 12:06am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Leah, I did read your other post, and put the book on my list of ones to gets. There’s another teacher that I really like, named Arjuna Ardagh, who talks a lot about dealing with emotions. It’s a more spiritual orientation, but he basically says get into them. And I agree. It’s being afraid of our feelings that creates the problem. They all have reasons for being.
I’m sorry that you find “namaste” a trigger. It’s such a beautiful greeting and soul salute. It just goes to show how even the most lovely things can get poisoned.
You know, in five years, I moved five times, each time hoping to get away from the cooties my ex left behind. Most recently, when a tenant burned down the guest cottage on my property, I wasn’t sorry, because everytime I looked at it, I remembered him living there.
There’s been some discussion here lately about what we see in each other’s eyes. And “namaste” is all about seeing deeply into each other, and recognizing the God-spark. Actually it’s a salute from God-spark to God-spark. Which I why I love it so much. Feeling that great something in another person has been one of the most meaningful things in my life.
But in five years, I never felt it with my ex-S. I’d look into his eyes and feel like I was looking at closed shutters. The only time they opened was when he was angry and spewing some kind of venom. He was a vociferous atheist, and sneered at anything like spirituality. Which could be expected from someone who is incapable of trust.
I’m sorry that you encountered the Indian version. If there’s on thing in my life he never touched — because he didn’t have the slightest idea of what it was about — it was my spiritual impulses. Not that they were very active in those years. I was too busy dealing with all the hurt child stuff that he brought up.
And I’m doubly sorry, because the Indian people I know are wonderful. My main client is a company run by Indians, and I’ve never worked with anyone as kind-hearted and respectful as they are. I’ve made them promise that if they ever move back to India, they’ll take me with them. I think I’d like to grow old there.
So, Leah, what would you like me to do? Do you want me to stop using it until it’s not such a trigger. I would, if you would promise to let me know when it’s okay again.
Kathy
PS — You seem to be a fine writer to me. Why don’t you write the book? It sounds like a great idea.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 12:14am
Tilly says:
Leah:
“I’m probably the only who finds the word “namaste”a trigger.”
And I thought I was the ONLY ONE!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 1:36am
Tilly says:
Leah:
But then my ex P even turned “mans search for meaning” by Victor Frankl into a trigger…he learned it off by heart to rope me in.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 1:39am
Tilly says:
KH:
“I have a theory that very few of us were good at anger before the sociopaths came into our lives.” You have hit the nail on the head for me yet AGAIN!!! This is sooo true of me. Though I would have denied it back then. xoxo
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 1:42am
OxDrover says:
I agree, I think we stuffed the anger down inside ourselves and I know I even felt guilty for feeling the anger…now it is okay to be angry, irritated, or enraged about injustice! I try to keep my ACTIONS in chek where anger is concerned, if I get mad that doesn’t give me a pass to ACT LIKE A MONSTER just because I am angry, but I can FEEL LIKE A MNONSTER that is angry. Big difference, the Ps feel justified in ACTING any way they please when angry.
We, on the other hand, can take our ANGER and address the problem that caused it…
BTW, Kathy, I have a wonderful and very beautiful new horse, but I have decided to let the guys ride her, I will stick with my asses, they are so much smarter, so omuch less likely to hurt me, and so much smoother a ride. The picturesque “white stallions” might be pretty, but they wouldn’t be a safe ride, so I think I will stick with the GOOD SENSE and CAUTION instead of endangering myself on a horse! I’m too old to get my bones broken again in combat of any kind!!! LOL Also, ,while swords are nice too, I’m so used to using the skillet and less likely to cut myself with the skillet, so I will stick to that too. Let the others swing a big long knife! LOL (((hugs))))
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 7:32am
banana says:
I very rarely feel anger. I guess it is stuffed. I think I feel that it is not a righteous feeling in the God-seeking sense.
But I see where you guys are going with this. We must find some way to experience it, to recognize that it is there, so that we can deal with it constructively…which WE can do.
My therapist is the only one capable of bringing out my hurts. I think this is not only because she uses God to go deep into my heart and address the things I try to “stuff” but also because I feel safe letting it out there.
I don’t want my hurts coming out every day, and when they do I like knowing my therapist understands and can help me work through it.
I have found I have anger at God sometimes as well as my STBXP and his OW, of course.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:19am
Leah says:
Shabby, Thanks for the reciprocal laugh.
Kathleen, No worries re: the word. I’m fine with it – just sharing. My ex-vampire was also a rabid atheist, although if he was dealing with religious people of any persuasion he loved to play the part of the pious believer and laugh like a two year old at his cleverness as soon as they turned their backs. I’m sure if you met either him or his enabler, you’d find them – at least outwardly – very respectful, considerate and engaging. In fact, they look like the paragon of virtue with their philanthropic work. That was a large part of why I fell for both of them. Unfortunately, it was another case of too good to be true.
Tilly, They’ll use any tool they can get…
Take care, all.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:29am
Matt says:
newlife08:
And what crime against humanity are you guilty of this week? Breathing? If your S has actually DEFINED FOR YOU what the crime is you get LoveFraud bonus points!
As for the threat of subjecting you to a psych evaluation, I was ready to pipe up “that threat cuts both ways.” Then you beat me to the punch and said he’s had 3 and been diagnosed N/S.
Hang in there, pal. This will end eventually and you will be able to get on with your life and actually make some concrete plans for the future — without having to worry about S going out and blowing through even more of your assets without your knowing about it.
Sing polly wolly doodle all the day.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 12:25pm
willIeverbehealed says:
Tilly,
When I said “You know, if I had given in, he’d still be alive, so it really was my fault anyway” I was trying to be sarcastic. I do not believe for one second that I killed him. That was strictly his choice. No one forced him to do what he did. However it is also true that if I had given in, he really would be alive today. For how long, who knows? I would only be a matter of time for him to self destruct. But as I said, I am relieved that he is gone, in this life. Now I need to work on how to prevent him from hurting me from the grave.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 12:39pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To Kathleen Hawkes,
Thanks for your insight and comments, Kathy. You mention that it’s o.k. to stop caring about N/S/Ps, and disqualifying them mentally from concern and respect we would ordinarily give to people. I am still struggling with this. I did care very deeply for him, for the ‘nice’ man he portrayed himself to be. We had some great times together, but they were conditional on my behaviour. If I stepped out of line, and I never knew what or when I did, he became an entirely different person. Still, I have times when sadness, loss, and emptiness engulf me.
I have a theory that people like us, who become involved with N/S/P persons, are compassionate, caring, emotive, friendly, trusting, and tolerant. These are all good qualities. But, they can become qualities that keep us in unhealthy relationships. Of course, a N/S/P will pick up on these qualities and “hook” us into a relationship with them, so that they can use us to their advantage. It all depends on the person we’re with as to whether these qualities will serve us well or not. Perhaps I’m wrong, but this makes sense to me.
You mentioned anger. My first reaction to his killing himself was anger. I realized what a selfish thing it was to do. Suicide is, I believe, the most self-centered and cowardly act a person can
perform. My anger toward him is not as yet spent, although I can tell it is shifting from him toward myself for getting involved with him in the first place. (There were gut warnings that I did not heed. I ignored them, telling myself that he really was different and truly loved me.) He was a master at stuffing anger down inside. Indeed, I believe that is what made him so vindictive and hateful. Anger at his not getting his own way, at not being treated as he thought he should be, every second of every day; anger at people that “let him down”; anger at himself for not being able to succeed in life as he wanted to; anger at me, especially, for not being a complete and utter doormat to accommodate his every wish and command. I tried to, but I was always failing somehow. I never knew how, though, and he would never tell me.
Yes, right now I am working on finding and trying to create positive moments in my life. It feels so strange, though, to not have him to “take care of”, and instead to be focusing on me.
Thank you for the recommendation to read M.L. Gallagher’s articles. I trust that these will help me, as has the advice and caring that so many people have offered.
Thank you all.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 1:19pm
justabouthealed says:
regarding “it all depends on the person we’re with as to whether these qualities will serve us well or not” I agree totally.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 2:08pm
Leah says:
willIeverbehealed, I wonder if a suicide survivor’s support group would be of use to you as you are stating a number of the common questions and expressing the unfinished business left by most suicides.
A booklet I picked up at one such meeting lists web sites with info and support group directories:
The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: http://www.afsp.org
American Association of Suicidology: http://www.suicidology.org
National Suicide Prevention Resource Center: http://www.sprc.org
Suicide Prevention Action Network: http://www.spanusa.org.
I wish you the best as you move toward making peace with all you’ve been through.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 2:21pm
libelle says:
Dear Matt, my crime of the day was too much coffee yesterday! I got very angry yesterday evening as our secretary kept the whole day yesterday counting my cups of coffee, I drank 5 or 6, and she constantly reminded me of overdoing it. I PAY for them Nespressos! (I overslept and could not get my early morning caffeine load of a HUGE double espresso latte at home). As a result I did not drink ANY today for not being judged again, although I do not owe her any explanation. I was angry the whole day, inside, not on the outside of course, but my skin was very thin, and they know me very well, I have no poker face, unfortunately, and at some point my 50% Italian blood show very clearly. The secretary is a huge enabler and for sure she informed the boss on every move I made. I did not respect the eggshells, and the boss (a N I am afraid) wants to talk with me tomorrow.
I feel like being in the same kind of shoes you wore some time ago, I think it will be the final devaluation. He acted very strange lately, first some phase of niceness, and this week suddenly cold and scornful again. Some letters displeased him too, and he heavily changed the wording but not the sense. I kept telling to myself that even Nobel laureates have editors and lectors, and kept quiet instead of being devastated in front of him knowing I can’t at some period do anything right in his way of doing (he always wants me to listen attentively to his explanations why his wording is so much cleverer than mine, first he is always angry then he likes to teach).
Fortunately I have already some further plans nowbody knows of, but I came home quite a mess, felt like a “dead man walking” and was very afraid, and I had quite a physical reaction of oppression of my chest and difficulties breathing, for the first time in my life.
I made a dark mousse au Chocolat with Ginger and Chilly for soul food. Reading here comforted me a lot, thanks, and hopefully I will now have a quiet night and be confident that you will be there for me in the cyberspace and serve as my guadian angels. I just wonder about the best tactics, mirroring? Saying “the chemistry is not right”? What I know for sure I won’t reveal my future plans! Maybe I just go in and listen what he says, I do not have to lose anything.
Thanks for letting me vent and rant, this side is really a lifesaver!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 2:40pm
witsend says:
willIeverbehealed,
I think if you read many of the articles here you will discover that the love you felt for your S/P was loving the illusion he created himself to be, not the actual man, he was…. In the begining of the relationship they create themselves to be exactly what you want them to be. Many here call it love bombing.
Each of us has a different first reaction to suicide. Anger is one that many feel initially.
Suicide brings such a flood of emotions in its wake that it is difficult to “keep up” and feel them ALL let alone try and deal with them. I believe that takes some time, the “dealing” with them. I don’t know how long ago this happened but I know in the begining for me it was overwhelming, the emotions I felt.
Witnessing a suicide is a very tramatic event. Don’t ever underestimate that part of it. Be kind to yourself.
You have every right to be angry that he took his life in your presence. That anger is better directed at him though then at yourself for being involved with him. As you learn more about his personality disorder I hope that you will have an understanding of what you were involved WITH and forgive yourself.
After 12 years of my healing journey I have come to my own beliefs/conclusions about Suicide. Suicide is a complex act. It is paradoxal in many ways. And you to will come to your own conclusions and beliefs. That is a part of healing from this.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 5:37pm
Tilly says:
I’ve had friends who have suicided. The last one was a really clever girl (she had her degree in psychology and art), and we had a lot in common.
The last few times I saw her she asked me to ring her up to arrange to get together because she was feeling down.
I didn’t call her because my world revolved around the N/P dentist boyfriend at that time.
We had mainly become friends because we were often individually rejected by the AA women,when we went to some of the “all women AA meetings ” together. Most of the women there are very scarey psychopaths and borderlines.
I saw her on the Thursday and she said she was going to the all womens AA meeting on the Friday at 10.00 am. She had very long term sobriety and was not a cluster B.
She drove straight from the Friday AA meeting, wrote a suicide note, and then drove up and down a main street near her home until a mack truck came along and drove straight into it.
She died immediately.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 6:06pm
Tilly says:
P.S.
Her parents showed me her suicide note.
Every single one of the psychopaths and borderlines at all the womens AA meetings who had rejected her and humiliated her, were at her funeral. They were all very happy and extroverted that day.
There were three people there (apart from me), who knew the truth.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 6:10pm
Tilly says:
I do not blame myself for her suicide even though I didn’t call her when i said or would and i did not attend that meeting on the Friday.
I have seen quite a few over-doses and have met a lot of people “in the rooms” who have overdosed on all types of drugs or died as a direct result of alcohol abuse. I have seen one hose -in- the- car suicide. I have friends who have hung themselves and I have friends who have witnessed coming home to their child hanging. I know people who have relatives who have shot themselves.
For someone to kill themselves in front of you…well, HOW?
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 6:17pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Libelle,
It sounds like you are in the “pits” about the working relationship, but just keep in mind that you know your job, you are good at what you do and you are a wonderful compassionate person for your patients who so desperately need what you have to offer!
Working with or for a P is definit4ely the pits! today I visited with an old co-worker who was recently fired by a P woman that I had worked for once upon a time. When this woman was made adm of the clinic my friend was the office manager there (I worked there for 4 years with her in the past) she said “She is out to get me” and everyone said “Oh, ,No, you are just paranoid” I BELIEVED HER. I WAS THE ONLY ONE. Sure enough in a little over a year this wicked woman fired my friend who had been there 18 years as office manager.
But I also found out that the WICKED woman is getting her own back too, as everyone in every clinic (7) hates her and she has gotten in trouble with the BIG ADM at the hospital. I know that eventually she will be let go, but in the meantime she has destroyed the staff in several of the clnics and hired incompetent staff to replace them (cheaper salaries) and micro-managed them into the ground. Of course that doesn’t help my poor friend who is 62 andhaving a difficult time finding a job at her age in the economy we have, and though she is EXCELLENT, there is a definite disadvantage in being near retirement age when you are seeking a job.
Play your cards “close to your chest” and keep your own counsel, just sit there and KNOW WHAT THIS PERSON IS and do not let them get to you! Tell yourself that you ARE STRONG and you will be–imagine them NAKED as they are talking and think how silly they look! that will help keep your mind from letting them get to you emotionally! (((hugs))) and my prayers sweet Libelle!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:07pm
Rosa says:
“after reading this I must say that “narcissiopaths” are what you would call a malignant narcissist.”
Someone else posted the same thing 2 days ago under a different alias. What are the odds???
But, he just did it for the “lulz”.
Remember?
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:07pm
henry says:
yes
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:09pm
Rosa says:
Thank you, Henry.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:12pm
OxDrover says:
Dear rosa,
Are you a gambling woman? I’m not sure I would take your bets, you are a pretty crafty character! LOL
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:28pm
Tilly says:
Rosa:
have you seen our “lisaMarie” (the one that loves Elvis) around lately? I keep getting her mixed up with Marielisa!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:31pm
Tilly says:
pianoman:
OMG! you are right! I didn’t think of that…i forgot about the terrible affects of alcohol and drugs on a person. I didn’t even think it through. Yes, I guess i have to admit that they are not borderlines and ps but really they are all just stupid and SOOOO out of touch with the realities of life. I think you are a psychiatrist in disguise, pianoman.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:35pm
Tilly says:
Pianoman:
I was only going to AA meetings to try to help my husband, of course, so I don’t REALLY know about these poor alcoholics.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:37pm
Rosa says:
There is NO DOUBT in my mind that you know EXACTLY what you are talking about, PianoMan.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:43pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Yes, and that was an excellent comment about how we don’t need therapists if we just keep writing. Obviously, you have a great deal of experience with these situations.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 9:51pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
I saw the “back & forth” between Lisa Marie (MariaLisa) and Billy Joel (PianoMan) on the other thread.
Cute pair. They played off each other really well.
The Donnie & Marie of LoveFRAUD.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:00pm
Rosa says:
I never said “I love you”, PianoMan.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:00pm
Rosa says:
Never mind what?
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:08pm
Tilly says:
Pianoman:
lol! You are SOOOOO funny!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:10pm
Tilly says:
pianoman:
I hope we can meet up soon!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:11pm
Rosa says:
You lost me, PianoMan. I was neither being dishonest nor disrespectful. I was stating my opinion as I see it.
An opinion, which by the way, is rapidly becoming fact.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:16pm
Tilly says:
Thats ok. You don’t HAVE to meet me! And I’m sorry if you find me scarey! maybe its because I’m so forthcoming.
We at LF often have get togethers at my place to discuss various topics. But it is completely voluntary.
My brother, (who is gay), is also a member on love fraud. But he likes me to keep his anonymity.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:16pm
Rosa says:
Please don’t try to bargain with me, either. It sets off an ugly trigger, and I don’t think we need to go there.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:19pm
Rosa says:
Absolutely, but I see you as so much more than that, PianoMan.
I hope I am not being too forward.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:26pm
Rosa says:
Continue what, PianoMan?
You lost me again.
I cannot seem to keep up with you intellectually.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:35pm
Rosa says:
Excuse me, PianoMan. I am simultaneously reading other threads as well.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:42pm
willIeverbehealed says:
To Tilly,
I am saddened to learn of your friends suicide. It is always a tragic and needless act. Hopefully she is at peace now.
My ex N/S/P’s suicide was only several months ago. It is very painful to relive the occurrence …I’ve been trying not to think about it. I confess that I am curious as to why the “how” is important to you. Suffice it to say it was horrible, and that is all I care to share.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:53pm
witsend says:
willIeverbehealed,
Dont even respond to the above comment.
Some are crossing way to many lines here tonight.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:59pm
Rosa says:
I rest my case!!!!
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 10:59pm
witsend says:
Actually I do have a problem tonight but apperantly this isn’t the place to be able to discuss a problem ar least I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing so.
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:04pm
ANewLily says:
Witsend, I’m still here. I’ve been thinking all day about how your court case went today. Now, you mention a problem! It must have not gone well? I’m heartbroken for you.
I had some good news about DD#3 tonight, too, but I am as reluctant as you are to discuss it now.
Can we just talk around the roadblocks?
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:08pm
witsend says:
ANewLily,
I am not the one who had a court date today, I remeber that someone else had a Thursday court date but at the moment I am to perplexed to remember who it was? Sorry.
Tell me your GOOD news as I need to hear something positive
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:10pm
PInow says:
Endthepain had a court date today, I believe. I am waiting to see how hers went. I am on pins and needles myself. Please, do share some good news… we all can benefit from some
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:14pm
witsend says:
Did everyone leave?
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:24pm
libelle says:
Dear OxDover. Thank you!!! I will take a DEEP breath now and start the day with confidence. ((((Hugs))))
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Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:34pm
ANewLily says:
Pianoman, I’m sure all of us would like to here valuable information from you. But, as respectfaully as I know how, I have to tell you if one of my children used your foul & disrepectful language, they would have been taken to the bathroom and had their mouths washed out with soap. So, may I respectfaully suggest if you do write your article that you will be respectrul? Thanks.
Sorry about mixing up Endthepain and Wisend, Do I need to explain how that happened? Has Endthepain, posted her court results yet?
I am so glad you gals want to hear my good news because I want to share it!!
DD#3 called me tonight after 3 weeks of silence!!!! She apologized for not calling me as she said she would but when I heard her valid reasons I was ashamed of myself for even including her with her two older sisters and brother. Plain case of true paanoia on my part! We had a tremendously great chat even though she had just finished a 14 1/2 shift in the hospital surgery room and was so tired. I’m revived!
Still haven’t heard from the other three but she did give me some insight into the thinking of her sisters — 6 1/2 and 8 years older than she is. MOST of what little she said did relate to their father’s lies but the extra good news is that she seemed to have gotten the whole picture — and rarely sees her father.
She did give me some insight about what bothers all of them about me. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. These past 6 years I was sending weekly e-mails and forwarding inspirational e-mails to all of them compositely. They wanted individual emails! (As if I could know that without being told?!)
They didn’t respond that they had even received them!
Anyway, I am glad she told me because I AM guilty of “lumping them altogether” while they were growing up. I guess I considered them a “family unit,” I don’t know. But, I do know that each week, I tried to treat each one as an “only child.” too, when they were the only focus. I’d likeknow if they remember those weekly “alone with Mom” times?
I feel so sad that I didn’t continue that practice after I left. It would have been so easy to write separately — well, sort of easy.
Anyway, if that is their major complaint against me, I can rectify that easily enough now that I am getting more strength back.
I’ll end with the hopes and prayers that each one of you receive some good news of your own today or soon! IT FEELS SO GOOD!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:44pm
ANewLily says:
And please don’t send this message with all of its misspellings to my graduate advisor!!!!! I’m shook up.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:48pm
Tilly says:
willieverbehealed:
I totally respect your boundary and understand the need for it. I was only asking to try to help you, but I see now it is not necessary.
The following comment you received was the type of thing that I was afraid of happening and trying to prevent or quicken so she would do something about it. but it seems she is running her own race. That is why i was so upset that Donna took off my harless earlier comments and allows IT to go on for so long. It has left me puzzled about her. That and a quite few other things that have happened over the months. I will certainly be checking her book out to see EXACTLY whats in it and how she puts it forward.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:56pm
ANewLily says:
Witsend, Do you dare to share the problem you mentioned? We care, you know, and want to support you.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:56pm
Tilly says:
Donna:
“. My best friend jumped out of a 29 story building and splattered all over the streets. He left a ditch about 7 feet deep. ”
Why are you allowing this abuse to go on? Are you a narcisssist?/?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 23 July 2009 @ 11:59pm
Tilly says:
P.S.
And why am I not allowed ro express my opinion on Steves article?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 12:01am
Tilly says:
ANEWLILY:
Unless you want the same abuse that willieverbehealed got, I wouldn’t share anything until IT is blocked.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 12:05am
blueskies says:
‘Anyway, if that is their major complaint against me, I can rectify that easily enough now that I am getting more strength back’ Woop!woop! Lily!
I love this wonderful happy story! I think its fantastic.(As long as you are not beating yourself up or balming yourself for everything, doesnt sound like it!xx)
Paranoia is a bad monster that can be sent packing with open honest two way communication!
We all get paranoid especially when we are under large amounts of Stress.(check me out over the last couple of days with my P-dar on overdrive!)xxx
Thank you for sharing this:)
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 3:06am
blueskies says:
Blaming not BALMING!…although that sounds like a nice activity, maybe you should treat yourself to some balming, maybe a massage, for being so ace!xx
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 3:07am
OxDrover says:
Dear Lily,
They didn’t contact you for six or more years BECAUZSE YOU DIDN’T SEND INDIVIDUAL E MAILS?
WHOA!!!! Wait a freaking minute here!!!
YOU are to BLAME that they didn’t contact you for more than 6 years for THIS PIECE OF CHIT “REASON”?
Ah, copme on now, that actually is sounding more and more like a NARCISSISTIC PROJECT THE BLAME ON TO THE VICTIM ROUTINE.
No one who truly cares about you gets upset if they get a “mass” e mail….at least you are keeping in touch. I have lots of friends that “mass” e mails is how we keep in touch, and there is NO GOOD REASON on earth that I can think of to go NC with your mother for that “reason.”
Lily, I think they are just coming up with some EXCUSE to cover their butts now that for some reason they have decided to “be in contact” with you—-personally, anyone who had SNUBBED MY ATTEMPTS AT CONTACT over 6+ years I would not bother.
Lily, I know you want your kids to care about you, but is this stinking “excuse” anything like a “reason”? REASONABLE AND CARING People don’t snub someone they love for 6 + years because you and your brother get the same copy of an e mail. LOVING PEOPLE on the other hand are HAPPY TO HEAR FROM YOU AND REPLY.
I’m sorry to bust your bubble on this one Lily, but it stinks somehow of UNtruth. (((hugs)))) and my prayers.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 8:03am
OxDrover says:
Tilly my dear,
If yo u are upset with Donna, why don’t you please contact here DIRECTLY BY EMAIL? her e mail address is on the home page for the world to see.
I know that you are under a lot of stress here, but I also know that your advice and compassion for others has been very beneficial to this site.
We have had several bloggers lately who caused chaos and disruption, I think Donna’s suggestion to us that we IGNORE THEM, post around them, and then go on about our business. This latest one has already caused upset, chaos and problems and distracted us for another 24-36 hours. I also responded, so i am just as much to “blame” as any of us, but I am not going to pay this situation any more mind as far as the poster itself is concerned, but go back to lending support to legitimate posters I know and welcoming new ones. (((hugs)))) and my prayers my sweet friend.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 8:11am
ANewLily says:
Oh, Oxy, you didn’t burst my bubble!! In fact, your assessment about my two oldest daughers affirmed my suspicions about their — having narcissistic traits, the oldest reveled on her 18th birthday; the second DD was her follower who idolized her.It was a challenge trying to raise a “normal” family in spite of what “empty suit’s abuse in private.
Until a little over a year ago, I hadn’t even considered taking their inventory because I was so full of grief about the smear campaign — clouding my thinking!! Remeber they had a narcissist father for their whole lives. DD#3 was often ignored by them too — and their father (being she was his 3rd daughter!
I remain skeptical of why they decided to contact me “out of the blue” except that father always did things “out of the blue” too. They had a “good” teacher. I assure you that if and when they contact me again, I will know how to respond — including with a firm NC if necessary.
I feel sure that “individual emails” isn’t the whole story, other than as an excuse as you say. I WAS happy that maybe empty suit’s mask had slipped for them. Probably premature happiness — but I enjoyed the feeling while I had it!
But, the “individual email” complaint does make sense to me and that is something I can do to change myself. I am guality as charged!
But, I am not blaming myself, just acknowleging my faulty long-held attitude. I like Blueskies” suggestion to get a “balming” massage! Sure better than being EMbalmed! LOL
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 11:00am
ANewLily says:
Gnnn, I meant “revealed” not reveled. Maybe she did revel in her new “freedom” to let her mask slip! It’s possible but another story — and a long time ago. She’s now 52!! All in all she was basically a good person. She could have changed in the past 6 years. I’m not going to give up yet — but I’m prepared to be very alert if she calls again.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 11:06am
ANewLily says:
PS By saying she was basically a good person I meant that she was never mean or verbally abusive. She did think the world revolved around her (after her 18th birthday), though, which got pretty disruptive to our family dynamics since she still lived at home.
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 11:12am
ANewLily says:
Oxy, I just reread your post to me and you wrote, “YOU are to BLAME that they didn’t contact you for more than 6 years for THIS PIECE OF CHIT “REASON?”
Oh, no! The individual emails wasn’t the cause of “snubbing” me!! I’ve still to learn the whole of it, the real cause.
It was an excuse, though. I know. My take on it is that I FINALLY got a glimpse of their FEELINGS and I’m glad about that.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 11:32am
witsend says:
ANewLily,
I read your good news! I’m sorry that I didn’t stay on last night as I thought everyone had gotten off. When I asked if everyone was gone I suppose that is when you were typing.
I was afraid to stay on if everyone was gone because the last remark that was made to me was from the person creating all the havoc.
I do have a issue going on with me but I need to give it some more thought today and then I think I will ask for some advice.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 11:59am
ANewLily says:
Witsend, nothing to worry about. I understand but it was the middle of the night here and I did go back to bed.
I have a doctor’s appointment with the gastroenterlogist in a few minutes. Back later — and hoping that all the falderol is OVER!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 12:56pm
libelle says:
Dear Oxy, just a little update how it went. I feel very relieved, as we agreed to end the job in the middle of next year (about the time my friend and I plan to set up our private offices…), and that he now WILL BE NICE THE REST oft the time
.
I stayed completely superficial, did not blame him for any of his atrocities and put downs, but we agreed that things have changed, we agreed also that he can’t stand me any more, but that I am a very engaged doctor and hard working, and that we are like a couple with the seventh year itch (I work there for 7 years), and he even confessed that he was not nice with me, and that he can imagine that coming to work in the morning is tough. I could confidently tell him that I like coming to work because of the patients. I did perfectly mirror him, as he started with “I am not happy”, I said the same. It was basically from the textbook “how to brake up with a bad relationship”. It worked quite well!
I had read Robert Hares book yesterday before going to sleep, it had the very good advice of not looking in the eyes of an X. I tried not to look in his eyes but let my eyes wander about his office. I think personally it is a very unpolite thing to do, but I managed! He has this stare with which he gets patients to eat out of his hands (they even described it to me, classical initial bonding), but last time we spoke I got the terrible version of it, and his mouth turned as if he had eaten something VERY disgusting; very frightening. Today he was about to tell me how hard I worked when he was starting it as my eyes began to wander. Think of Kaa of Jungle book by Walt Disney, and you get a weak idea.
I let him “win”, now he thinks he dismissed me, and for that he will finally put my project on prime time so that I will get a special diploma before leaving. He even promised to work on it during his holidays! Tomorrow I will finish the paperdraft so for sure he thinks of me and has to do some work for me in his holidays as well!
I also said to him that I have learned A LOT from him and the “silent treatment colleague”, in a tough way though but very efficient, which he was very pleased to hear! ( i.e. become a sociopath myself, doing silent treatment without remorse when appropriate, getting angry at the right person, not just always at myself, not accept every blame that lies around waiting to be adopted, LOL, I did NOT tell him WHAT I have learned of course!)
As you said I kept my cards close to chest, and he has no clue what I am about. Just two of my very best friends know about my plans. I did for obvious reason not inform my family!
Maybe I am a tad too little devastated for his taste?
Thank you SO much, without your presence in the office as a guardian angel on hairy ass (like Jeanne d’Arc, or a kind of Amazone on wings with an economy class ticket) I would have been devastated as I have been many times before in offices like this in situations like these (my profession is infested with N!) I am quite sure you were hiding behind the wonderful “appeasement” white orchid flower in full bloom I put some time ago in his office. It will leave with me!
Towanda!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 2:31pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Libelle,
I am soooo happy for you woman!!! You did a great job! TOWANDA!!!! If we can just keep our heads, because we do know what they ARE, we can out smart them at their own game sometimes—not every time, but some times!
I agree, medical fields are so populated by Ns and even a few Ps, and because they have so much control they are free to abuse it at will. It is part and parcel of the medical culture here in the US it seems.
Some types of businesses too seem to “draw” Ps and Ns into their business.
It’s funny I never had problems getting along with families, patients, office staff for the most part, but had so much difficulty with the Ps—I did learn to keep my mouth shut some, but too many times i did open my mouth at injustice. I tend I think to “joust at windmills” at times, when I should have been learning better how to take care of myself and not so much take care of others or fight lost causes for “truth, and justice, and mom and apple pie!” for me, learning that “truth and justice” don’t always win was difficult to accept.
Accepting that, however has taught me to make peace with what I cannot change. We know we cannot change them, that they are NOT reasonable, coopeerative people. so, we must accept that, do the best we can to minimize the damage and move on. Sopunds like you have wonderful ideas!
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 10:49pm
PInow says:
Oxy, Lilly, you are the ones that recognize red flags best, it seems. I went on a date. not an attraction at first sight, but we’ve been sending each other jokes, things like that. 3 months later we met up again and I told him how spooked I was by anyone giving me extra attention. So, the guy started e-mailing me that he “thought about me” today and “does not want to freak me out”. three days in a row, nothing too obsessive or overbearing. That freaked me out. Am I overreacting?
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Friday, 24 July 2009 @ 10:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear PI,
Okay, since you asked my opinion, I would suggest that you not start dating yet untiil you are completely out of the FOG over the last situation. I’m not sure how long you have been NC, but I know that it takes TIME to get your head back on straight before you can make a good decision.
As far as the things he is sending you, that really isn’t enough information to make a decision on what it means if anything.
However, the fact that YOU ARE WONDERING (freaked out) tells me that you are not yet “ready to date.” So my suggestion is to get in tune with yourself, get happy with yourself, and when you actually dont even care if you date or not, you will be ready for Mr. Really Wonderful lto come along!!!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 12:45am
ANewLily says:
Dear PInow, Oxy may have a different opinion but I don’t think you are overreacting — even though I don’t perceive a reason for you to be “freaked out.” You still are reeling from the EX, so I think anything would cause an overreaction at this point.
He may even be sensitive to your telling him how spooked you were by receiving positive attention, meaning he has empathy! However, I’d be WARY yet. If it gets overbearing, he just might be a “bad guy.” But, I think if your instincts have been repaired, you will be able to trust your own assessment without seeking confirmation. JUST MY THOUGHTS
I can’t remember how long you have been “out” but I do remember you are having ongoing problems with the EX. Experts say that one shouldn’t date seriously until one feels really strong and healed. Only you know your current emotional health.
I do pray that it works out for you, though. You deserve some positive attention and a man who truly cares about you.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 1:02am
ANewLily says:
Oxy and I posted over each other! If you look at both of our answers, we are really saying the same thing. Does that help?
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 1:04am
ANewLily says:
Oxy, I’m glad you are here. I’ve been “talking” to you all day!
I don’t think either of us were really our usual clear thinkers yesterday during the fallderol. I wasnt, I know.
I’m wondering what I wrote in my “happy story” post that brought you to the “conclusion” that the composite emailings were the CAUSE of the shunning. They were not. I must have not explained myself well.
I know I didn’t interpret your post to me the first time I read it as I did on the second reading.
I’m puzzled. I know you, more than most, know about my adult children but I really have been careful not to reveal too much about their individual personalities. I DO KNOW THEY HAVE BEEN BRAINWASHED — and can only suppose they have many conflicted feelings.
But, on another site, DD#3 “found” me and I had to leave the site. I’ve thought that MAYBE her eyes were opened by what she had read there but I know she was very angry that I said what I said — thinking her sisters had flown out to my hospital side because they had ulterior motives. (I do still think that with the scanty info I have.)
I dare not risk being “found” again!!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 1:12am
ANewLily says:
Oxy, here I am again in my usual P.S. habit that I thought I had broken!
My thoughts are that you did not have enough information about my children to “conclude” anything. Understandable. I haven’t given you much to go on!
I LOVE YOU LIKE A SISTER DON”T FORGET!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 1:16am
Kathleen Hawk says:
ANewLily, I read your post about your daughter being angry about what you said about her sisters.
Rather than being angry at you, I would think she might wonder why you had those feelings. Why is she protecting her sisters, rather than being concerned about you?
Obviously I don’t know the whole story. And I know you say they’ve been brainwashed. At the same time, I think that you deserve better than this.
And you are allowed to have your own feelings and thoughts, and to share them with other people. It’s not like you were carrying a picket sign out in front of their house, saying “Unfair to Mothers.” You were at a web site, undoubtedly speaking anonymously to people who didn’t know your children. At what point are you allowed to stop protecting their feelings, so that you can speak freely?
Forgive me if I’ve spoken out of turn. I know this is very difficult for you. I just wish that one of these children would treat you with more kindness and understanding.
Kathy
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 2:17am
banana says:
Follow-up on my manipluation issue….
So STBXP wanted me back “so badly” right? Yeah even showed up at my place of residence (I live with a GF her husband and their 5.5 YO DD, as well as her 18 YO SS).
He was there to cry and put on a show in front of all the family and the neighbors. So she got mad and told him she’d call the cops if he didn’t leave.
So his quote from his attorney to mine was…
“Sofresh, I have your dad on the phone and he told me to call the police.” Then, “Go fuck another woman you prick. I don’t want to hear your fucking sob stories. Get lost you asshole. You’re a piece of shit. Get the fuck lost and don’t come back here.”
What she actually said was that she didn’t care about him or his problems, he was a loser, he couldn’t even move his car so her stepson could get in the driveway, he wouldn’t have these problems if he didn’t sleep with another women, and that she didn’t care what happens to him that he needs to leave or she’d call the police.
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 8:46am
OxDrover says:
Dear Banana,
I was wondering where you had been for a while. Missed you. Yep, the creep-O is trying his hook out in the water again, but actually it is STALKING you…and you do not have to let him do this. If he keeps this up….tell him CALMLY (and have your friend do this too) that he should “GO AWAY NOW, or I will call the police” No other words because if you or your friend get angry and curse him it will bite you in the butt in court, so just be CALM about it (I know it will be difficult but you can do it)
He will use this as “proof” that he was trying t o “patch up” the marriage but you were unreasonable and wouldn’t do so. But WE know don’t we that it is all lies and just anothe rof his attempts to get his hooks into you! Be strong sweetie, we are all here behind you!!!!! Like an army of support!!!! ((hugs)))
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 9:24am
banana says:
I think no response on my part should be needed as his “flip-flopping” is shooting himself in the foot. I hope the court can see it for what it is; “Manipulation!!!”
Really, who (other than a P/S) would beg and plead for reconciliation and then stab that person, that they ‘love SO much’ in the back at the soonest opportunity?
I am also beginning to wonder if his attorney is a little sick also.
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 9:43am
ANewLily says:
Kathleen, thank you for your reply instead of Oxy’s.
I can answer this question quite easily: “Why is she protecting her sisters, rather than being concerned about you?” I don’t think she was “protecting” her sisters in her anger at me.
That “anger” was in September 07 — much has happened since then and DD#3 has been calling me for over a year now. She has promised never to do NC again because she “learned her lesson.” That’s why I had gotten so paranoid why she hadn’t called recently and led to my first post about it — and then to my “happy story” when she explained VALID reasons why she hadn’t called.
No, as a mother who loves her children I do not have the right to my own “feelings” and “thoughts” expressed on a public board that can be read by THEM. I am protecting them from their father’s wrath!!
Sort of like you “protected” us posters from the intruder recently. I say “sort of” because it is not really the same.
I am reading Divorce Poison by Dr. Richard A. Warshak and hoping to gain some insight about how to communicate with the other 3 brainwashed children. There has been some progress and I don’t want to mess it up!
I KNOW I don’t deserve this. But, I didn’t deserve to be mistreated by the man who had vowed to love me forever, either! My children don’t deserve to be brainwashed, either, but they are adults. I trust that they will one day come around — but realistically, it might not happen until after their father who lives CLOSE to them dies. It is a MIRACLE, I think, that DD#3 got out from under his clutches. But she is a nurse who even worked 10 years in a hospital for sex offenders. She has more knowledge than her siblings. She KNOWS at least sex offenders can’t be rehabilitated. Her knowledge of personality disorders is growing!!
I know that my own problem stems from a life-long problem of HATING to be misunderstood. I’m working on it.
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 12:21pm
ANewLily says:
Banana,
I agree with you, based on his attorney’s reply, that he might be a little “sick” too.
I also agree with you that who but a P/S would plead for reconciliation and then stab his “loved one” in the back. It seems to be standard procedure for them.
I also agree that no response from you or your supporters is best and let him “shoot himself in the foot” as you said.
I have not seen this “self-destruct” happen in my case (at least yet) but others attest that given enough rope they do “hang” themselves all on their own.
Oh, how I wish you weren’t having to go through this. Stay strong adn resolute!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 12:30pm
libelle says:
Thank you Oxy! Have a most pleasant weekend!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 1:23pm
ANewLily says:
Hey, all, I am going to take a few days break from LF. I feel I am typing some things that do not really express my meaning.
Ex: I reread what I wrote earlier: “Kathleen, thank you for your reply instead of Oxy’s.” My meaning was that I was expecting Oxy’s reply and I see it didn’t come out that way.
See, I need a break!
Have a great weekend, everyone. I’ll see you next week!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 2:45pm
learnthelesson says:
ANewLilly,
I totally did a quick retake of your sentence to Kathleen. But as soon as I doublechecked that you were writing it.. I knew your meaning was that you were expecting Oxys response and low and behold there was one from Kathleen!! (At least thats how I interpreted it!) —
Breaks are refreshing…we will miss you.. look forward to “seeing” you next weekend (for me)!!
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 3:38pm
PInow says:
Oxy and Lilly, thank you for responding to my post. It’s been almost 9 months, but not really as I have continued struggles – now through legal channels ( he knew that would hurt). I am under a lot of pressure from others “to get my life back in order”, to meet new people and to rebuild friendships he alienated me from. I am not going to get “serious” with anyone, at least not planning on it and am being very upfront. But, all of us know that it takes a good mirroring P to shrink you “back to health” before sinking his teeth into your life. I have not yet learned to trust my instincts, because they historically brought me to the Ns, Ss. and Ps. So, I guess the hard work is yet ahead, but meanwhile I think it’s very important for us to not lock into the misery and keep options open for our own sanity.
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 10:59pm
OxDrover says:
Dear PI,
After my husband died in a very traumatic accident of which I was a witness, I felt “old, unloved, lonely,” and was despondent not only in loving my beloved husband but that no one else would ever want me, boooo hooooo etc. 8 months later I got hooked by a guy I knew (I didn’t know he was a P though) and wa la! I’m in love, I’m “recued” from a lonely life alone…NOT!!! Just more drama, trauma, and pain!
Then on top of all that, I had illness (I’m usually a very healthy person) but a series of life threatening infections (stress=no immune system) and so on, then the concentrated “attack of the multi0ple Ps” ending when i had to flee for my life! Five eyars ago I thought I had the “world by the tail” I had a job I liked okay, only worked 2 days a week, spent the rest of my time with my husband and my son D doing what I wanted to, no fiancial worries, beautiful and successful farm, live wasn’t perfect (P-son in prison) but I still felt (and was) plenty blessed. That was July 14, 2004 when my world came to an END I thought. My wonderful step father was diagnosed and dying with cancer, my egg donor was ill and infirm, and then my husband got killed that day in front of my eyes practically.
It has been an up hill battle since then, but some things I have learned are:
A lot of my “perfect world” was NOT peprfect, I was just pretending it was (with my egg donor and my P son especially) and I needed to make some changes in ME.
I don’t NEED a partner to make me COMPLETE as a person. If one were to come along I might consider it, but if not, I am STILL a complete person within myself.
My happiness doesn’t depend on others, it depends on ME.
My happiness doesn’t depend on financial status, health status, or anything else outside of MY MIND..my heart, my soul.
I’m still working on ME, but at the point I am at now, I am a lot more conscious of CAUTION in new people, and a lot more willing to SET BOUNDARIES about how people treat me.
If someone is rude or nasty or tries to take advantag eof me now, I do NOT FIRST SAY “What is wrong with ME that that person treated me that way?”
Instead, I say “what is wrong with THEM that they are acting like that?”
I am more content with myself, more protective of myself, and better to myself now. It is an entirely different way of looking at things. I am more INDEPENDENT, more self sufficient, and realize that I DESERVE TO BE TREATED WELL.
I am now only closely associating with those who I know love me, and NC with the rest. It is a good way to live.
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Saturday, 25 July 2009 @ 11:32pm
Tilly says:
I’ve been to four different libraries, ALL the bookshops around and i can’t get ANY of the recommended reading here in Oz. I have to order it and it takes 4 to 6 weeks to arrive in the “quickest bookstore”.
Also I went to all our local chemists and they have never heard of “align” (or “toms” ) the digestion aid.
Oxy:
Our easy off has written in contents : sodium hydroxide 54/kg, diethlene glycol alkyl rther 55/kg.
Net325g.
Is that the same as yours over there?
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 12:25am
Tilly says:
I usually have nightmares where one of the ps i know is trying to kill me and I am trying to get away.
The other night I dreamed that the p (the ex boyfriend dentist) was dressed all in white shirt and white suit (but it looked a bit “shabby”). And he was telling me all about how his new indian girlfriend, (victim) was pregnant. ( I don’t think she actually would be). He was looking at me and telling me all this through his eyes, which in the dream, were blue, (but in real life they are green). The dream (nightmare) went on and on and I remember feeling immense frustration that the dream wouldn’t end. That i couldn’t make it end.
What the hell is all that crap?? Whats with the white suit???
I hope it means he is dead or is gunna die soon.
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 12:35am
Tilly says:
Oxy:
Since i have gone nocontact, I have put on at LEAST half a stone in weight, (can’t fit into my jeans). Everywhere I go people say, “God you have lost weight!”, I say, “NO I havn’t i have put it on”. Then without fail they always say, ” I mean, in the face”!
Whats that???
Is that there way of saying I look haggered!! lol!! xo
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 12:40am
Tilly says:
I still think its to do with being on the effexor for so long.
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 12:41am
PInow says:
Oxy, thanks for sharing. I agree with you about being whole.
Will take it very slow.
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 7:50am
geminigirl says:
Hi, everyone! apparently I did something wrong by posting names on my last blog, and got boinked by donna!{Sorry, donna, I didnt know}. That thread has closed now, so I thought Id try again on a different thread. Im just back a week early from my holiday in S. Africa. the reason we cut the trip a week short was that I still hadntfully recovered from my minor op. to remove a rodent cancer from my nose.Also, I couldnt believe how much more expensive everything is now! We still had a lovely time, and came home rested.As usual, on arrival home,I still get a pang, seeing loving families re-unite,{my daughters have never once come to the airport to meet us, drive us home, etc.,} I should be used to it by now!Im still NC with my olderst daughter,and I know logically its the only way forward,but I still get that sinking feeling that a good Mum would forgive and forget. I WULD forgive her, instantly,if I saw the remotest glimmer of her being sorry for all the rotten things she has done to me. Im now of course, once again questioning myself if I was right to insist on these particular boundaries,{ie for her to remove these former punk friends from her F—book page, the ones who helped her to trash my home and studio, and run up hundreds of dollars on my chemist and grocers accounts?
I asked for only one blanket apology, but I know in my heart Ill never get it,{NSs are never wrong}, and I suspect shes thinking,”Mum will weaken and ring me, and then I can suckerpunch her for more cash!’I know how heartless she is. Last year, I had an op called a rectocele,for a ballooned lower bowel} Its Ok I had it, it wasa succes, but when I tried to tell her about it before I had it, shesaid,”Yeugh!! Do you mind! How revolting! I dont want to hear this!”So, that was that.I know I cant ever expect any softness, kindness or sympathy from her,but I still worry about HER.What will become of her in the future? Her former husband says,”Dont waste your precious energy thinking about her, -I try not to think of her at all. Save your precious energy for you and D.,and have a great trip!”He has promised to come and visit soon and bring the kids and his new girlfriend, whom the kids adore.He told me he had 15 years of lies, deception and affairs, he used to love herbut no longer does.I fear for her future, she is running out of people to use and abuse.I still worry about her.I missed all of you reat guys! Love and Hugs, geminigirlXX
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 8:52am
OxDrover says:
Tilly,
Your wait gain or puffiness in the face is I think stress-related. I have put on a tremendous amount of weight in the MIDDLE of my body, in other words I changed into a beach ball with legs shape—yes, folks! ROUND IS A SHAPE!!! LOL
Studies have proven that stress hormones change the WHERE we put on fat, as well as the tendency to eat more and exercise less is also a stress related thing.
I also take effexor but never had the weight problem until the horrible stress. I have been on effexor SMALL Dose for years because I tended to have seasonal affect disorder (SAD) i.e. be depressed in the winter months–probably some tendency to be depressed at least to a small degree 12 months. During the worst of the PTSD I act5ually lost 25-45 pounds because I forgot to eat….the bottom line is that STRESS screws with our minds and bodies and appetites and how the body uses food, produces fat….it does a NUMBER ON US.
Since I have decreased the stress level (not eliminated it for sure) I am healthier and do actuall FEEL the differences when the stress level goes up—say if I get ANGRY I can feel the effects of the stress and fight or flight hormones in my body. So I do try to keep my emotions in check (not “push them” down but talk to myself and control lthem) I actually talk to myself like you would a frightened child to calm it.
As far as the “Looking haggard”—BOY, HAVE I AGED IN THE FACE. I now look like my grandmother! Lots more wrinkles than before all this. Two years ago I “looked so bad” that my doctor that discovered the tick fever was convinced I had CANCER—cause I had that “LOOK” that cancer patients have sometimes, gray, unhealthy, wrinkled, etc. just “sick”—he was totally shocked I came up clean and no cancer thougth I was checked “stem to stern” COMPLETELY and only the tick fever showed up—that and the effects of STRESS. I turned into an OLD WOMAN over a short period of time.
I’m not sure why I thought somehow I would be IMMUNE to the effects of stress, but I think because I “knew” about it I wouldn’t have that EFFECT–WRONG-O!!!!! If anything, I had MORE effects of the stress than I even thoght were POSSIBLE.
I am, in retrospect, AMAZED that I did not die from the effects of the stress ALONE.
This is why it is so important to get that stress level down as much as possible, I think, by staying away from TOXIC people as much as possible.
This semester, Tilly, may NOT be the time for you to “be strong” and suck it up with the P-teacher, I think, after this recent episode of you being paranoid, you might be smart to put this class off another semester, even if it delays your finishing your course….I have had to make those decisions and I have DELAYED stressful events, that I knew would be stressful, until I had more strength….and more low stress time to heal. There is some inconvenience sometimes, but over all and on the whole, if you are feeling the effects of high stress from the past, you should I think, decrease stress until you are recovered some before you take on a known stressful situation.
Sorry about the uncomfortable dreams, I have them once in a while now, and actually had one last night– and the egg donor and uncle monster were in it—I think they are our subconscious trying to bring up some things we need to process…I just kind of look at the possible symbols in the dreams, or any repeat “themes” in them to see if there might be somethign I need to work on…sometimes I see it, and do it, sometimes there is no “message” to me that I can figure out.
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 9:14am
OxDrover says:
Dear GeminiGirl,
I was writing the above post to Tilly when you were writing as well…I have missed you.
It is natural and normal for a loving person to care about their offspring. I used to worry so much about the other inmates abusing or beating up my little P-darling while he is in prison. I was so concerned for his safety! Now I do not give his “safety” another thought. It has taken years for me to come to the I DO NOT CARE ANYMORE mind set. You have just started to SEE what your daughter is. You could not even be expected to “instantly” not care any more. Your X-son-in-law, has obviously reached that stage and I am GLAD FOR HIM that he has.
All any of us can do is to stay away from them so they cannot injure us more now, and go on with our lives. My suggestion is that when you find yourself “worrying” over no one taking care of her (BTW it is HER RESPONSIBLITY TO BEHAVE LIKE A REASONABLE ADULT AND TO TAKE CARE OF HERSELF. if she choose not to, then the “natural” consequences are hers to endure) tell yourself, “She is an adult, she knows how to behave well, and choses not to. The consequences of this choice are hers” maybe that will help you stop the worrying, and then distract yourself with some other thoughts.
I do know it hurts you, it hurt me, but I have accepted it as something I CANNOT CHANGE. Doing that has freed me from the worry. GLAD YOU ARE BACK!!! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 9:29am
geminigirl says:
Dearest Oxy,
Thank you! I guess this is an ongoing process, and hopefully Ill one day reach the “Nirvana of indifference!” It does hurt, but when it does, I should remind myself of her sickeining and heartless abuses of me, and save my own life! Its so hard to accept that the child you gave birth to is really not normal in what we think of as normal, ie, having some vestige of a conscience, feelings for other people,remorse,empathy, etc. I still do worry about her and what will become of her, but I should save my worry for myself and my husband. I dont miss her,{whats to miss?} -Im so lucky that God has given me this lovely Iranian young couple who are so sweet, loving, and appreciative of D. and I.
Its nice to be home! I do appreciate you Oxy, and all you great guys on lovefraud. Hugs, geminigirlXXThanks again.
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Sunday, 26 July 2009 @ 10:05am
OxDrover says:
Dear Gemigirl,
I’m glad that you have “family” that are not necessarily blood, but are “a family of love”—blood does NOT make a family as you and I both know so well.
I’m not sure if you ever saw the movie “Rosemary’s Baby” an old horror film where a woman is chosen to give birth to Satan’s child. Sometimes I feel like “Rosemary”—-only I didn’t know it at BIRTH of course, but much later after I had become attached to that sweet little child—but he became Satan in the flesh at puberty! When I first came on here to LF the other posters were mainly women who had had bad romantic relationships, but the type of poster has turned over several times and now there are quite a few older women such as you and I who have been “Rosemary” and had to deal with our offspring being our abusers, as well as other people who have had bosses, neighbors, church members, etc.
Abuse from a lover when you are younger is painful indeed, but to find out after 10, 20, 30, or even 40+ years of “marriage” then ALSO find out that some or all of your offpsring are also abusers is devestating in terms of energy available to rebuild your life and finances as an older woman.
I also see problems for the young women in rebuilding their lives, and in many cases wishing, hoping and needing to remarry or reform romantic relationships–getting into another P relationship, which of course we have seen several of them here (and older women too) who have b