Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild”
PDF By Ox Drover
Something occurred recently that set my mind to thinking. My best friend who lives another state came to visit me for a couple of weeks. This friend has known me about 30 years, so has known both of my biological sons, including the psychopathic one, since they were kids. She has “been there” for me through all the trauma, the disappointments and the pain. She was there for me when my husband died in the aircraft crash and my adopted son was burned. She was there for me and for my oldest son when his wife tried to kill him. So she has seen many of the psychopaths I have dealt with “up close and personal” and she has seen the toxic enabling my mother has done and is doing with my P-son by sending him money, even after he tried to have me killed. There is no one on earth who can reasonably “validate” that I have been the victim of multiple psychopaths during my life than she can.
I remember when I went to the EMDR (rapid eye movement therapist). During my first intake interview, which lasted over two hours, as I detailed the large numbers of psychopaths who were conspiring to have me killed and had run me out of my home in fear of my life, the man very politely listened and showed interest in my tale of woe, which could almost be labeled “Pitiful Pauline’s Terrible Trials,” to use an old serial movie title. At the end of the session, he was careful to word his request, since I had told him I was a retired medical and mental health professional, that I “bring in someone to confirm” my stories, which to him, I don’t doubt, sounded like the ramblings of a “paranoid delusional schizophrenic.” When he made this request, in his very diplomatic manner, I actually threw back my head and laughed and said, “Yep, I do sound like a paranoid schizophrenic, I know, but I will be glad to bring in both witnesses and documentation to verify my stories.” Which, the next visit, I brought in court documents and rap sheets and mug shots, newspaper clippings, and my adopted son to verify that I wasn’t just “paranoid,” that there were indeed a conspiracy of psychopaths “out to get me.”
My own tall tales
Because I have lived a life that is pretty much out of the norm for a kid who grew up in the boondocks of rural Arkansas, and in some instances, done some things that are sort of along the lines of an “Indiana Jones” character, I learned pretty early in my young adult life that many people will disbelieve you if you “tell exciting stories” that are too far off the “norm” of most people’s lives. They view you more in the line of someone who, like my neighbor, “Crazy Bob,” tells tales of his years in the FBI, CIA, his Congressional Medal of Honor, his 5,000 parachute jumps, and him being a Navy Seal, all the while being too dumb to know that no one has ever made 5,000 parachute jumps.
Even if “Crazy Bob’s” stories are unbelievable to most people, some of my stories are as unbelievable, of flying cargos of live animals in and out of South America in a salvaged WWII B-25 bomber, or living in the bush for months at a time, or catching thousand-pound crocodiles at night from a 25 ft. canoe in the delta of the Nile, or the crazy camel driver at the pyramids who was paid to let me ride his camel. The only differences between my unbelievable stories and “Crazy Bob’s” are that I can prove mine with photographs, newspaper articles, passport stamps, pilot’s log books and other documents as well as living witnesses who were there with me.
A man who has been my friend for about 15 years told me, “When I first met you, I thought you were some kind of ‘blow hard’ who made up these outlandish stories, it wasn’t until later, I realized that you were telling the truth.” This man is not the first, but I do hope, will be one of the last people who “hears my stories” and disbelieves because they sound “so outlandish, no one could have done all those things, or had so many psychopaths target them.”
Is every jerk a psychopath?
Even my friend of 30-plus years asked me as I was chattering on about some guy I thought to be a psychopath, “Are you starting to label everyone you know who is a jerk, a psychopath?”
This comment sort of surprised me, so I said, “No, I don’t think so, let me tell you why I think this man is a psychopath, though I didn’t realize it at the time I had a business interaction with him. First, he left his wife of 25 years while she was dying of cancer, leaving her destitute and alone, then he showed up at her funeral with his girlfriend sitting beside him, then he stole the inheritance of the daughter of a deceased friend after he had gotten himself appointed the executor, and then I added a few more incidents to his “psychopathic con-man resume.”
My friend then replied, “Yea, he does sound like a psychopath.”
Psychopaths I have known
Not too long ago I sat down and decided to make a “list of the psychopaths I have known, been related to, and/or who had hurt me/others significantly in interactions with them.” First off, of course, was my “sperm donor psychopath”, and I actually know of two men he killed. One of my maternal g-grandfathers was an abusive alcoholic. My “egg donor’s” brother, Uncle Monster, was a vicious, violent wife-beating, woman-hating man. Then there was Charles “Jackie” Walls III, who was a Boy Scout leader in our small town who was tried and convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the over 1,500 cases of child molestation that are known of. There was the covertly psychopathic teacher I had in nursing school whom I saw over and over persecute and target certain students, primarily males, for several years. Though she never targeted me, I finally became so afraid of her that in the middle of the program, I changed universities and drove 40 miles further for the last two years of my schooling just to get away from her.
I also listed covertly vicious physicians and nurses I had worked with for quite some time, directors of programs I had worked with, business partners of my husband who literally stole his business and bankrupted it, working together, and lying in depositions to the court. (One of them did, later, go to prison for conviction in a very similar scam in which they got caught, but they got away with the scam against my husband.)
All in all, when I finished the list of people that I had known closely enough to know their histories and to see some of their covertly malicious behavior targeting others or targeting businesses, I had, just off the top of my head, a list of 45 people that I knew who would have rated at least a 20, and more likely a 30, on the PCL-R. Many of these people were “respected” physicians, attorneys, Boy Scout leaders, psychological counselors, psychiatrists, surgeons, school teachers, police men, ministers, prison officials, prison guards, college presidents, businessmen, politicians, media stars, and others were “known” and convicted convicts and ex-convicts. Some few were “overt” psychopaths committing murder and other crimes of violence and not caring who knew they were “dangerous.” Others were “covert” psychopaths trying to protect their “public mask” of kind and caring people.
Of course, at the time I was working with or interacting with these people I had no idea that they were “toxic” and “dangerous,” and their public face, in “responsible” positions of college president, or minister of a church, was intact. Even when in some few cases I was actually warned that these people couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t listen to the warnings. When they began to target me and to covertly attack me (“stab me in the back” is the common vernacular) I felt the knife go in, but couldn’t for the life of me figure out why! Of course they were smiling and “playing nice” as they stabbed me, and if I “whined” about the pain I was feeling, then they “couldn’t understand” why I should be feeling and sensing that I was being attacked, of course they didn’t see any “knife in my back.”
Overt and covert
I had learned after the encounter with my sperm donor, who was an openly violent man and “proud” of his homicidal violence, to stay away from overtly dangerous people. I had taken great pains to stay away from the “low lifes” in the community, the heavy-drinking, fighting, strutting “bad boys.”
What I hadn’t learned until the last couple of years, though, is that there are probably, I estimate, six or eight “covert” psychopaths for every one or two “overtly” violent psychopaths. Though Scot Peterson and the BTK killer were actually very physically violent to their victims, they tried to present to the public this “good guy” mask to hide their psychopathic violence. These men were eventually convicted of their violent activities, just as Charles “Jackie” Walls III was convicted and his mask of “community leader and Boy Scout leader” was jerked off his face.
Not every “domestic abuser” goes to jail or makes the statistics. I don’t know what the real statistics are of overt and covert domestic violence, and I am sure that no one else knows, either, of the men/women who physically assault their spouses behind closed doors and nothing is ever known by anyone except the victim and the abuser. Many times, I think, not even the children in the family know the truth of what goes on behind “mommy’s and daddy’s bedroom door.” Unfortunately, too many of the victims take the shame of the beatings on to themselves, and “keep the family secrets” intact.
The statistical estimates of “how many psychopaths are there?” range from 1 percent to 4 percent of the general population, while about 20 percent of incarcerated felons are rated as psychopathic. While many victims may only recognize one psychopath in their lives, there are others of us who have repeatedly been targeted by them.
Crossing paths with psychopaths
Why us in particular? Possibly, we were born into a family highly populated with overt or covert psychopaths. Possibly we are adventurous and, as many psychopaths engage in high-risk or adventurous professions or past-times, we come into contact with a “pool” highly populated by psychopaths due to the adventurousness of our profession or recreational activities.
I spent time working for my sperm donor as a wildlife photographer in South and Central America, Europe, Africa and the American west, and the adventurousness of the profession attracts people who are highly involved in “risk taking” activities like self employment, film production, international travel, general aviation, and dangerous hunting activities. Therefore, it isn’t surprising to me, looking back now, that several of the men who were involved in my sperm donor’s enterprises were psychopaths.
Though my late husband was a man addicted to a “high-risk” and adventurous profession, general aviation, he was not a psychopath, but that profession brought him into contact with my sperm donor, and also many other psychopaths. Many were wealthy, famous and infamous men that, in retrospect, I consider high in narcissistic and/or psychopathic traits, Richard Nixon for one.
Identifying the psychopath
Learning to identify people with “covert” psychopathic traits in the “wild” is much more difficult than identifying “overtly dangerous” people with psychopathic traits, since most of the people who are “overtly dangerous” will swagger around “looking like a thug” and wanting to impress you with their potential for violence. It is sort of like the difference between the pit bull dog who bares his teeth and growls, versus the dog that quietly sneaks up behind you and sinks his teeth into your calf without any warning growl.
In either case, the best test of either the overt or the covert psychopath is their behavior, rather than what they say. If you observe someone do something (anything) to another person that you deem unjustified, ugly, nasty, hateful, revengeful, etc., then you should be very careful around that person and be watchful of them.
A friend of mine who was a dean of students at a prestigious college was literally sexually attacked by one of her fellow vice-presidents of that college; fortunately she was able to get away from him. Six months later, though, when he was appointed the new college president, his first act was to fire her. She hadn’t seen it coming. She was not only devastated, but was shocked and surprised. She shouldn’t have been. She had been warned that this man was a psychopath by his drunken sexual attack, but she kept her mouth shut at that time rather than “cause a stir.” Later, her silence at the time of the attack cost her her job.
The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.
Another thing that is against our being validated when we observe and “label” these instances of psychopathic behavior is the lack of validation we get from others who also know this person, but are not nearly as aware of what it “means” as we (former victims) are. They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John” or “Well, he probably didn’t mean it that way” or “Oh, just get along and play nice.”
The covert psychopath may not be physically violent at all, but instead, may only engage in emotional and mental abuse of his/her victims by demeaning and degrading them with subtle put downs. The covert psychopath may also do financial or career damage to their targets, and a covert smear campaign against a co-worker or boss can destroy a career or a reputation.
No understandable motive
Because we, many times, fail to see a “motive” that we can understand for the behavior of the covert psychopath, it makes it difficult for us (and others) to believe that “s/he would do that,” because we cannot see what s/he would gain. Unfortunately, many times the “motive” of the psychopath is the same answer as the mountain climber gave for climbing a very difficult peak, “Just because it’s there and I wanted to prove I could do it.”
It might be fairly easy, you would think, to spot the “overt bad boys” by going to a “bad part of town” or “gang turf” and looking at the guys swaggering in and out of bars or selling drugs on the street and say “that guy acts like a psychopath,” and you might even be right in your assessment, but maybe not. But you can’t be sure you are not dealing with a psychopath at a debutante ball, or a civic meeting, or a political rally, a church group, or a business meeting either, because the fact that people there are cleaner, better educated and dress nicer doesn’t make them less apt to be a psychopath.
My sperm donor used to tell the press that he was “eccentric” and “the reason he was ‘eccentric,’ instead of ‘crazy’ was because he was rich!” Unfortunately, I think in many ways he was right, as people who are in a powerful position because of fame, money or other reasons, seem to be allowed more range in the behavior that is considered “acceptable” than those of us who are not so rich or powerful. Their power over other’s lives, finances, and emotions I think is what feeds their egos and their sense of entitlement to “control” others. Those of the human race who are not high in psychopathic and narcissistic traits don’t usually consider “control over others” to be a stand-alone motive to use, abuse and manipulate other’s lives for their own joy. That being said, it is difficult for us to see this as a viable motive in others who do have the psychopathic traits.
Survival skill
Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. Whether their natural habitat is in the school room, the board room, the court room, the dining room, or the bedroom, we need to watch for the signs of deception and signs of lack of empathy, even the very subtle signs that these people have an ulterior motive in their interactions with us and/or others. We need to listen to our “guts” and our “intuition” and to validate this information ourselves, rather than doubt ourselves. Even if no one else on earth thinks that what “John is doing” is pathological, we need to have the self-awareness to watch out for ourselves if we spot a “red flag” of pathological behavior or attitude in someone.
To answer my best friend’s question again, I think I would add, “No, I am not labeling everyone who is a jerk a psychopath, but I am no longer excusing bad behavior on anyone’s part. I am keeping my eyes open for signs of people without moral compasses and I am distancing myself from them as far as I can.”
written by Joyce Alexander • Permalink •
skylar says:
that first link is PURE GOLD!
Thanks Thornbud. I’m saving that.
this article is a short review on a book about narcissism in our culture.
http://www.reviews.ctpdc.co.uk/lasch.html
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ThornBud says:
Dear Oxy, i can never get enough of ur posts. Here i am coming, reading, learning, but i am afraid i am still stucked at the Anger phase, sometimes i am in the loop of cycle.
Hope i am not off the subject here with those links and i am not a spamer. Its just that i liked the stuff and thought it might be of some use to someone.
An Emotional Blackmail Testimonial Quiz :
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....ooth.shtml
Answers:
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....-key.shtml
I am not ready to post my “case” , although all our “cases” are similar and probably one more story won’t add any value.
I am looking forwad the day i will be able, like You, to post advices about how did i heal, but it seem to be very far from where i am right now.
Hugs to all of u!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Thornbud,
I’m glad you found validation in the article…that’s what LF is all about, us sharing what we learn as we all STAY on the road to healing. It is very dangerous to ever get off that road. Too many times I started on the road to healing, felt better, and thought I had “arrived” and was “safe”—but I found that I was “lured off the healing road” back into the “swamp and the FOG” again with another dysfunctional or personality disordered person….much to my pain.
We must learn to spot them, “in the wild” but we must also learn that we must avoid them. I’m glad you are here ThornBud, keep on reading and keep on learning, and thanks for the links. (((hugs)))) and God Bless you.
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muldoon. says:
I kmow I dont have to sy anything…Im sure you all can guess..I have no words aand feel worse than I have ever done, I actually wish I was dead ..I dont see any way out of this.
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skylar says:
muldoon,
what happened? did you go back to him?
DO NOT WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
That is what he wants you to wish.
We want you alive here at LF so you can walk with us and talk with us on our road to better things.
Time and distance will give you a bigger perspective.
Please talk to us.
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witsend says:
muldoon,
I don’t know if anyone is on right now to help you…
If I remember bits and pieces of your story you have been sick (cancer?) and you do have (younger?) children and you are in a relationship with an S/P/N? And you keep going back?
And he is abusive? Question marks are because I’m not sure if I got the situation right…
Well I don’t know what I remebered correctly but I think I got some of it.
If for NO OTHER reason leave him ONCE and FOR ALL for your children sake….
1) If you have boys, and he abuses you..THEY can very well be ABUSIVE when they grow up. VERY HIGH POSSIBILITIES HERE.
2) If you have girls, and he abuses you…THEY will end up BEING abused by their partners.
3) If you think they don’t “see” the abuse (physical or mental) you are not correct. They are AWARE of it. They can sense it in your fear.
4) AND last but not LEAST your children NEED you. PLEASE don’t wish you were dead. Be whom you were always meant to be for yourself as well as your children. Get away from him and STAY away.
If you survived cancer this means God has a plan for you!
GO TO A WOMANS SHELTER if that is your only place to go.
They WILL help you.
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muldoon. says:
\Iskylar when can get headc together to put it down …will write the latest m too stressed out and head shot to explain right now..been reading here again all day…
yes witsend…that about sums it up…
This time though I am on a hideous downer and see no way out…
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
YOU KNOW I will tell you the TRUTH!!! THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY OUT!!!! You CAN DO IT!!!! You MUST do it, for your kids if not for yourself. I am here if you want to chat. Love (Hugs)) Oxy
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witsend says:
muldon,
Honestly a womans shelter isn’t a bad place to go!
You will bond with other women in a similar situation and as you HEAR them tell their stories, you will be seeing the LIGHT.
You will know that they shouldn’t put up with the toxic person in their lives and pretty soon you will see the parallel in YOUR own story….And why you shouldn’t either.
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blueskies says:
Muldoon:)xxxxxxx How are you? been wondering whats been going on for you? Just have a cup of tea, come back, and tell us what’s the what ‘carriad’.xxx
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muldoon. says:
Hey all…bluskies oxy witsend…as you guessed mi let him back..felt sorry for him, dropped the charges, and he is off again.tried reasoning against my better judgement..pointless as always…told him had enough…he is simmering now..darent call the police they are pissed off with me droping it..social services are looking in to me as to wether I am allowing the kids tom witness domestic violence..IOne of my children l;eft home three weeks go..she now with her dad, she says it peacefull and no rows!!
I feel caught between a rock and a hard place and seriosuly dont know which way to jump.
witsend…been to a refuge 11 years ago, from previous husband…was theer a year…cried when i went there and cried more when I left..met lots of cool people and know the score..
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muldoon. says:
sorry typing sobbing and cant see.
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witsend says:
muldon,
Please understand the importance of WORDS v/s ACTION.
Actions speak louder than words. HE CAN SAY ANYTHING….But you have past history of his actions.
What does the words “I LOVE YOU” mean if they are followed by a blow to the face? Or a kick to the gut or a shove? They mean NOTHING.
THATS NOT LOVE.
You deserve more than that. He has beat your self esteem down as well as his physical abuse.
The police are unable to help you if you drop the charges. And they don’t understand why a woman would do this even though they see it all the time.
You still need to call them when you need them. Don’t let them judge you or intimidate you.
We can all gather round you in cyber space and try to help you, through this. But you know you have to be willing to be DONE and accept that he will NOT change.
No matter what he says. His words mean nothing.
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skylar says:
muldoon, get your child back!
if you don’t you will have another P to deal with. He will turn her into one.
But your first plan of action is to HARDEN YOUR HEART.
You do that by knowing the TRUTH. Read books, read LF, read, read, read, until you know the truth about what is happening. Read until you are an expert and can predict his next move even in your sleep. (for some of us, that’s the only way we could predict it before we knew the truth!)
Read the comments here on LF. Look at how we are noticing, even laughing because THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. Amazingly, preposterously, the same. You can set your clock by a P. LOL.
Really. If you read enough, just from this blog, you will no longer feel anything but pity for them. They think they are so unique, but they are little card board cutouts of each other. Nothing new, just the same old bs, same old P.
Even before I knew what a P was, I had begun to be able to predict his behavior just because there is a typical thread running through it: Lies, manipulation, charm and pityploy. CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. RAGE.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
That is your first step: KNOW THE ENEMY LIKE THE BACK OF YOUR HAND. Then all success will be yours.
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muldoon. says:
Thamnks both…I do know the next move and his next response but for some reason I hope he will suprise me..Thought maybe a I kicked hm out fopr so olong before he may buck up and think he will lose us and cnange his ways…but it isnt working that way.
I know this time is for real because if I drop one morem complaimnt the social services will take my kids…so I am reluctant to take the first step..but i also know must take the step …
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ErinBrockovich says:
Muldoon,
I was telling my oldest the other night……when all the shit hit the fan…..I knew I had to act…..all the reality came rushing at me…..
My relationship with my children was strong, I had worked hard to keep an open line of communications with them….that was one goal as a parent….their father, the S….worked hard to split us off…..wasn’t successful…THANK GOD!
SO……that said…..when the shit came back up the toilet and the house was flooding with the S’s last straw behaviors…..I HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHOOSE TO PROCTECT MY KIDS!
It was either choose a bad marriage and lose the respect of my children and put them through hell, or choose to protect myself and my kids……
I chose me and the kids!
Your children did not ask to be born, they did not ask to witness what you are allowing. YOU must protect them.
You are getting a glimpse of one child looking to protect herself already…….she’s disgusted and losing respect for you.
IT DOESN”T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY!
There are always ways out……your fantasy is over…..what is it you are looking for?
YOUR NOT GOING TO FIND IT WITH HIM!
It’s in YOU!!!!
You must act, you must take control of your life……you are playing with fire and getting burned…..JUST LOOK AT HOW YOU ARE FEELING!!!!
Take your sadness and turn it into action.
You deserve a peaceful life, your children deserve this….
It’s only up to you.
People/we can offer all the advice possible, but it’s all up to you what you choose to do with it!
You know the reality, quit hiding in your fantasy. HE WON”T CHANGE…….
HE WON”T CHANGE, HE WON”T CHANGE, HE WON”T CHANGE!!!!
Your doing yourself and your children more harm by allowing this horrid cycle to continue.
What are you waiting for……ACT!
WE are here, but…….ultimately……
No one can help you, you must help yourself!
XXOO
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skylar says:
No Muldoon, please stop having hope. No hope. He will not change, he cannot change. Believe us here at LF, the only change that will happen to him will be on his deathbed.
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skylar says:
Muldoon, have you ever heard the story of the scorpion and the bear?
The bear and the scorpion are standing on the edge of a river. The bear is about to swim across but the scorpion says, “Hey, will you let me ride on your back so I can cross too? I can’t swim.”
The bear says, “heck no, you’ll sting me and then I’ll drown in the river”
But the scorpion replies, “No I wouldn’t do that, because if you drown I’ll drown too. That would not serve my purpose.”
The bear sees the logic in this and feels safe to extend his good nature to the scorpion.
Halfway across the river, the bear feels the scorpion’s sting.
“Why did you sting me?” he cries, “now we’ll both drown.”
“I know,” says the scorpion, “but I couldn’t help myself, I’m a scorpion and it’s in my nature to sting.”
So it is the same with the P. No carrot and no stick will change its nature. It is a P, a cardboard cutout of all P’s. They do what they do because they do, it’s what they do.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
None of us here can save you, YOU MUST SAVE YOURSELF. Even if it means that social services take your kids for a while, are your kids not better off in a foster home for a little while rather than in the middle of all this mess.
Call social services and TALK to them, tell them you are a mess and he is MEAN AS A SNAKE, TELL THE SOCIAL SERVICES YOU NEED HELP to protect your kids and your self from him. DO NOT LET PRIDE, FALSE PRIDE STAND IN YOUR WAY. Explain to your kids that you are going to be away from them for a little while but that you are doing it to protect them, do this FOR YOUR KIDS, they do NOT need to be in the middle of this ROLLER COASTER YOU ARE ON, and neither do you.
ONLY YOU CAN GET OFF THE ROLLER COASTER AND STAY OFF, and only when YOU DECIDE TO DO IT. YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT, what is BEST and you know you cannot change him, so why are you REPLAYING THE SAME BROKEN RECORD? Get REAL my friend, and I am telling you the BLUNT TRUTH, but it is out of my CARE for YOU, my care for your kids, my care for ANY WOMAN WHO IS TRAPPED in this CYCLE. Break out of it, Muldoon. YOU CAN DO IT!!!! WHATEVER IT TAKES. ((((HUGS))) AND I AM PRAYING FO RYOU. Love, oxy
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muldoon. says:
I dont know how I come to be back in this position…what possesed me I mean. Three times I have thrown him out, once for 17 weeks and life was actually ok, after the initial devestation to be alone it was not half as bad a I thought. I could kick myself that I felt i had gained ny him returning…when in fact I was better off…
I have to shake the downer I am on and get my wits about me….again.
I know its gona go right off whn I say sling yiour hook…it always does and each time its worse..this time no spur of the moment..Im guna put more planning in to it than the D day landings,
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skylar says:
Way to go MULDOON! That’s what we want to hear.
First thing, is making sure you are clear on reality. read as much as you can on the subject of narcissism. get books.
Here is another blog that explains it:
http://narcissists-suck.blogsp.....rview.html
that blog isn’t getting too much posting anymore because the author has moved on, but the info is still amazing.
2nd thing, while you are doing this remember the first rule of getting rid of a parasitic being: BE BORING, BLAND, UNEMOTIONAL AND UNINTERESTING. They can’t stand boring, that’s why they bait you with their evil manipulations, for the sheer sake of entertaining themselves at your expense. So, channel the personality of a rock. a grey rock, no sparkly, nothing. You are now a plain, gray, rock.
So get planning.
quote from another blog:
be the kind of woman, that each morning when her feet hit the floor, the devil says “Oh crap, she’s up!”
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OxDrover says:
Dear Muldoon,
YES! You can do it!!!!! You MUST do it, or frankly, you will “die” either physically and emotionally and drag your kids down with you. I don’t blame your older child for going to live with their father, and actually I think it is probably a good thing, better for them right now at least, and I think maybe this is your WAKE UP CALL that you must protect your younger kids and yourself. You are not doing yourself or them a favor staying with this pervert! This monster.
Sweetie, yes, I am trying to lay a “guilt” trip on you about this for your kids sakes. You know how horrible your own childhood was, you have told us how your mother suffered, and you are repeating her “life story”—but you have a CHOICE NOW to change that….I KNOW YOU CAN!!!!
I too lived my life for the most part trying to “fix” the unfixable because I thought that was what we did, what we HAD to do, but it is not so, we OWE OURSELVES TO BE GOOD TO OURSELVES, and owe it to our kids to get TOXIC PEOPLE OUT OF OUR LIVES AND THEIRS TOO!
You can do it Muldoon!!! Don’t even think about taking him back without coming here, don’t feel weak, we will be here for you like an UNSEEN ARMY OF SUPPORT, IF YOU WILL JUST LET US, but we can’t support you against your will. Don’t be ashamed of making mistakes, don’/t be ashamed of taking him back other times, just RESOLVE NOT TO EVER DO IT AGAIN!!!! This is like an ADDICTION, but you can break it, you are stronger than you know!!!! and you are not alone!!! You have an ARMY of supporters behind you for your D DAY ASSAULT to FREEDOM!!! ((((hugs)))) Oxy
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ThornBud says:
Muldoon. please, listent to me !
Although i said i am not ready to post my story, im gonna give u “just” a hint
I am in this hell of trying to heal more than 4 years, and after i came here to the LF, in just a month or two of reading,i managed to heal more tham in all those years. I know, my dear, that our pain always seems biger than other ppl pain, and our problems look biger, not because we are selfish, ignorant, not understanding, but because we are in our skin and we can feel our feelings more intense than anyone else. The rest of us can (and be sure we DO) imagine ur pain, but only YOU feel it.
I faced cancer 4 times in my life, last time few months ago, I KNOW THE FEELING.
When i met my N my situation was:
I lost 3 kids, mother, father, brother, i lost my career i was building 20 years, i have found myself living in country wich was in war..passing 11 (yes, ELEVEN) surgeries, my only left child was diagnosed first stage of cancer at her 13 . This is ONLY part of my struggles.
So many times i wanted to die, to be dead, even before i met my N. Than, we met, i told him everything, but it did not stop him. NO FEELINGS my dear, THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS, no empathy, no love, just desire to satisfy own needs.
Here i am now, ALIVE and willing to live. I owe it to my only child. If it was ME who suffered all my life, should she be the next??? Do i have right to leave her in pain till the end of her life? I am a mother, i want to be there when she gets marry, have baby. I wanna her to have nice life, to get nice husband, and i have no right to put a stamp on her forehead: I AM A DAUGHTER OF SUICIDAL INHERITAGE. I have no right to bargain her life more than it will be anyhow, without “my help”. I wanna be there for her if she needs me, i wanna support her and help her, i wanna make her SMILE not CRY, and she already cryied my tears, witnesing my pain and my downfall. U and me, and all of us, have to be brave and strong, to be an example of success to our children, not an example of failure.
BE STRONG !!!!! Hold ur head up and raise! Believe me, if looking from abowe, everything, including pain, looks smaller. When looking from down, it looks bigger. Stand up and fight, God never bargain us with more than we can stand, and never lead us to where he would not be to help us.
HUGGS
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shabbychic says:
ThornBud, I hope muldoon has read your post, your message came straight from your heart, that is clear, what a beautiful letter to write to someone, how wonderful for your daughter to have you to love.
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recovering says:
Eternal Student: Thank you for sharing the following link
about why good people are often disliked and bad people often excused by others for very inapproriate behavior:
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/…..2524588861
I found the above article extremely insightful and have very much appreciated the many posts here from Lovefraud members whose insights and wisdom address dealing with difficult life circumstances and extremely unethical people.
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skylar says:
recovering, your link didn’t work for me.
Anyone else?
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skylar says:
Thornbud, you are amazing to have overcome so much.
There is hope for humanity and you have just rekindled mine.
It was dead but now I feel a twinge of life in it.
I know some others here, at LF, have had cancer. I think it is the inevitable result of too much P-behavior in your life. I worry that I will not escape cancer.
Interestingly, my cats seem to offer instant, though temporary, stress relief. My love for them is so overwhelming that just looking at them makes me stop feeling bad for a moment. I have always loved cats but I have 5 because my P kept bringing them home to me. He thought that by having so many cats I would be stuck in that house unable to escape him – where could I go with 5 cats? He knew I love cats too much to ever leave them. But I did leave him and took all 5 of them with me. LOL.
Unwittingly, he provided me with comfort instead of chains. LOL.
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henry says:
skylar when my X moved in with me he left his cats to fend for themselves. I insisted he must go get the five cat’s as they would starve.. well five cats soon became 15 and i was over run with cats, guess who got the cats when he left me for Mr. New – yep me and I am not fond of cats, but I got em spayed and neutered and found them new homes..and there are still ooddles of kittens here and there…and yes Thornbird your post makes me realize what a fortunate man I am and appreciate my health and life even more tonite – thanks for sharing that inspiring post
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ThornBud says:
Thanks to all of u who was inspired by my post and thanks God it made an impact on someone.
What i believe is that it is inevitable to lose our health in such relation with N/P/S because thanks to them, our immune system is weakened. I imagine it as some army of deffence, ready to deffend our body, mind, soul. Being with those monsters engages all the soldiers of that army to deffend our sanity, mind and spirit, our soul and heart, so our body is left without deffence, unprotected and opened to deseases.
Oxy will explain it better than me (lack of knowing English is big obstacle to me) but it is well known that positive attitude and good spirit are crucial in healing process from any desease, important as medications are.
Some scientific researches proved that more than 90 % ppl who was trying suicide felt regret in last moment (unfortunatelly, too late).
Taking N/S/P back and breaking NC equals suicide, and we always regret after doing it. So, we have to be strong enough to help our little soldiers in battle to deffend our health, physical and mental. Together we are stronger!
It is not a phrase that our health is most important, and unfortunatelly, only those who hv lost a health know that! Also, our health is composed from mental and physical part, and it is impacted by both. There is one old Latin proverb: Mens sana in corpore sano (pls take a look at: http://www.answers.com/topic/m.....rpore-sano) , telling that there must be balance between those two parts.
Letting them to break us, we are allowing our N/P/S ruin our health, and we have to ask ourselves: Who on this planet is worth of it ???? We are giving them much too much credits !
Huggs to all
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Eternal Student says:
Skylar, this is the link Recovering tried to post:
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/.....2524588861
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OxDrover says:
Dear ThornBud,
Your post was wonderful! From the heart and mind of someone who has wisdom and grace. I too hope that Muldoon read it and took it to her heart. She has been on a “roller coaster” of emotions for many months now.
I think many of us have been on that same wild ride, up and down, circling around and back again. doubts and fears our seat-mates.
The stress we have from those doubts and fears do make our health and immune systems go down and it is important that we decrease our stress. Medical research has long proven and reproven that stress can actually kill animals and make them subject to diseases. My own health hit the bottom during all of the worst of my chaos with the psychopaths and I repeatedly was subject to dangerous infections.
I work hard at keeping my stress level down and focusing on taking care of myself physically and emotionally and being peaceful and calm. Also, recognizing when I am being stressed out and taking steps to decrease it by avoiding stressful situations and people.
Muldoon, I hope you are reading. ThornBud’s advice is good!!! Let us know how you are!!!
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Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy:
“dumbness of horses who will HURT THEMSELVES FAR MORE than they are hurt by being attacked. A horse if he gets his foot tangled in a piece of wire will panic and tear his own leg off trying to get free”
While this is true of most all horses…as a horse owner…I’ve owned and raised horses that did not panic in these situations but assessed what could be done and if they could get out safely w/o panicking. I’ve owned one that rolled by a fence [not his usual territory] and the wire was hidden by the ground brush. His leg was caught and he did not panic. I saw it and told him….’easy- till I get to you.’..it was across several acres. He waited patiently till I got there…remained still -letting me cut the wire and free him completely before he calmly stood up when I said…ok, boy, you are free. So….maybe we need to be like these wise horses….sure we got our leg caught but we remained together until we could get ourselves free-many times with the help of someone that cared….:)
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OxDrover says:
Dear Twice,
I have also owned a horse that did not panic when tangled, even if I was not there, she was bad a bout pawing at web wire and would get her shoe hung, and stand for hours and neigh until someone came, but most of them will panic, even the most gentle ones. Because they are prey animals it is a natural instinct.
Asses, though prey animals are much smarter about being tangled, and also do NOT trust their safety to OTHERS and decide for themselves what will hurt them or not. In fact, because they are so much less likely to hurt themselves, and/or you, at my age I have given up riding horses and stick to riding the mammoth asses. If an ass spooks at something they will only run a short ways then stop and reassess the situation where a horse would keep blindly running. I own a really good horse, but they are not nearly as dependable (or smooth riding) as the asses are. I leave the horses to the YOUNGER folks and I’ll let Fat and Hairy take care of my old bones! LOL
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justabouthealed says:
Muldoon….
I gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which I must stop and look fear in the face… I say to myself, I’ve lived through this and can take the next thing that comes along… We must do the things we think we cannot do.
~Eleanor Roosevelt~
PRESS CHARGES. Can you reinstate them?
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Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy:
I agree about long ears. I love them also! I have many friends with long ears, have ridden them, carted with them and raced with them. I really enjoy them too!
But, for me, nothing can ever match the spirit of the horse. ‘The Sublime Equine’. I wrote a poem about horses with this title. [I am a free lance writer--I write mostly for horse orgs/horse magazines and other horse related material] I donated it to a horse loss org. I work on behalf of the wild mustangs out west to help keep their land. I know the horse is more trusting, more apt to panic and more high spirited. But, for me….that is what I love. I relate to that….and nothing makes my spirit soar more than to see a beautiful horse in action….I owned a horse that we trained to do the macarena. **My horses were my therapy to survive all I have been thru. No matter what happened I had my horses to love and they saw me thru. That is what the poem ” The Sublime Equine” is about= The human/equine bond.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Twice,
Yes, I know that feeling, when I was a little kid, my horse was my best friend, we roamed the woods and byroads and she was “there” for me to talk to. animal therapy of all kinds is good for the soul, and I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who said “the outside of a horse is good for the inside of a child.” I agree with that very much.
As I have aged though, and am no longer quite so easy to heal, I like the long-ears just for safety if nothing else, and the ride is so smooth and they are so much more dependable, I have decided my safety is more important than the feeling of flying across the country at full speed. It is one of the concessions I am making to old age and more brittle bones! LOL “Getting old” is difficult for me to slow down, and to be mroe realistic about what I can and should or can’t and shouldn’t do these days.
I was fortunate a while back to get a chance to purchase an exquisite high dollar highly bred quarter horse mare for a price I could afford (actually I bartered for her as it was the only way I could have afforded her) I thought at the time I would be more satisfied riding her, but I have stuck with and intend to stick with the asses, and my sons can ride the mare. If they get thrown they are more likely to heal than I am. I have enough arthritis from injuries from when I was younger. LOL
Learning to live life at a different PACE is just another part of adjusting to life as it IS not as we would like it to be, I think.
Adjusting to the face in the mirror, which is different than it was when we were younger, and seeing the body after a shower, is one of the adjustments we have to make. LOL Back when my egg donor started to ‘age” (or I started to notice it I guess) it was more a “trauma” for her to get “old” than it was for ME, but now that I ahve also had to “slow down” in some of the things I enjoy doing (no more huge gardens, now it is a few raised beds) etc. I am starting to have to arrange my own thinking about ME—the “new” me, which is a not-so-spry person any more. The “new” me who now waits for the guys to come in to move the couch instead of picking it up myself. The “new” me, who delegates the pick and shovel work to the younger geenration. Losing some of our “independence” in life I think is harder for some of us than it is for others. Realizing we will never set that “world record” we wanted to set when we were younger, realizing we will never ride the 100-mile-in-24-hours race we always intended to ride in but never found time to do. Realizing we will never win another ribbon in a Three-day-event again….
Couple that with all the OTHER changes and losses in our lives from our associations with the psychopaths and it can all be overwhelming, but I am working on it all, and trying to enjoy the things I CAN do to the extent possible. I’m finally at least realizing that I CAN live the BEST years of my life NOW and in the future, and stopping feeling that I “wasted” so many years before. I learned lessons from those “wasted” years, after all, so the person I am NOW is because of what I learned from those lessons. So I am grateful for today, for the now, for the JOY of TODAY!
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Easy says:
If you thought you where alone in our encounter with the Parasites!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ
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Twice Betrayed says:
Oxy: good atttitude working for you on aging and life!
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kim frederick says:
Dear Oxy, thanks for your last post. My mother hit menopause at the same time Ihit puberty. I remember her telling me, getting older is a little bit sad.” Of course at the time I didn’t understand. I am in menopause myself, and find the changes in my body a little depressing. I am trying to find a way to make the best of it, however. The lines in my face kind of s–k, too. Charactor lines, I suppose. Heavy sigh.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Oh well, if you are gonna dance, you gotta pay the band……..:P
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kim,
There is a book called “CRones Don’t Whine” the word “crone” is an old English word meaning “wise older woman” but it has been used with the terms “dried up old” (crone) attached to it as a slur for older women.
There is a new term a “JUICY” crone, and that is what I am striving to be. to ENJOY this third phase of my life. to celebrate it, no more periods, no more dirty diapers, no more worrying about “impressing” others, but just “letting it all hang out” and BEING ME—-the NATURAL me!
There is a peace and beauty in not being fixated on your extermal looks.
A friend of mine said one time “you should pick your lovers by their personality not their looks, because in the end, we all end up looking like YODA” ROTFLMAO and that is so true! But you know, if people “like” or “love me” because of my flawless skin or my tight butt or perky boobs, then they are not worth my worry because none of us “stay young” forever. EXTERNAL beauty fades, it is what is inside that matters.
You know, I never picked my friends by how they looked I picked them because of the inner beauty they either had (or I THOUGHT they had) and my husband was NOT “handsome” by anyone’s standards, but I thought he was because I loved him. so beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’m coming to grips with that, and getting very okay with it. Took some time, but once you are over the hump and quit worrying about it, it’s a piece of cake!
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kim frederick says:
Thanks,Oxy. I guess I’m a liitle sad about the fact that I never had a love that ‘stuck” and now am wondering if anyone would even find me attractive. I don’t really know what I would do if someone did, at this point. I’m pretty isolated, but in a way that’s been good. for the first time in my life, I’m NOT engaging in relationships. Not even really looking for one, don’t know what I would do with one, Don’t trust myself to have a healthy one, don’t trust myself to recognize a good guy from a jerk…well, you get the picture.
I actally think that this is growth. But I’ve gained 20 pounds in the last two years, dont’feel attractive, isolate myself, and my self esteem is shit. How do I start to change this? It’s not healthy, but it almost feels like it is. I hope you understand what I mean.
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skylar says:
I know what you mean Kim,
It’s not what you want, but it is an opportunity for growth, as opposed to the hell of being mesmerized and hypnotized by a P.
I’m there with ya.
It doesn’t feel healthy, it feels really sick to open your eyes and see reality. Now everything looks gray.
Knowing that there are so many liars out there is frightening, not even because I think I’ll be conned again, I don’t really think that, since I know I won’t trust anyone with my heart again. But maybe because I won’t trust again, the world just doesn’t seem as beautiful and the effort to live just doesn’t seem worth it.
I don’t even know if I should be grateful to the P for informing me of the truth, or hating him for it, because I was happy not knowing.
Kim, I would encourage you to lose the 20 lbs for your health, but I can tell you it won’t help your self esteem. I lost the 20 from stress and look pretty good, but my self-esteem is probably worse than yours – I’m sure of it. Looks are not where self esteem will be found. That’s what the P’s wanted us to think. Sure, it helps sometimes for a brief instant, if you’ve got nothing else. Like the P’s have nothing else but a veneer. What we have to find is a self-esteem that comes from mastery and accomplishment. But my bootstraps broke, I don’t feel inspired and I can’t pull myself up right now.
If someone would just point me in the right direction, maybe I wouldn’t be so confused.
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justabouthealed says:
Don’t forget that one reason P’s can fool so many people is because MOST people ARE good. And honest. Certainly don’t make a habit of telling lies to get control.
And while 20 lbs can make a big difference for older joints, etc., to a man who loves you for the right reason it makes no difference.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Kim,
Yea, I sure do!!! It’s been difficult for me too. After my husband died 5 years ago, I felt so old and fat and ugly. It wasn’t that I had changed in how I looked from when he died to afterwards, it was how I THOUGHT OF MYSELF. When the P came along and started “courting” me, it make me feel good about myself–so I fell for his line.
After I kicked him to the curb, I felt like I was very alone, lonely and never would be happy again….my “happiness” depended on another relationship. Just thinking I would never have another one made me almost panic. I started working from there, first REALIZING how I felt, recognizing that my feelings of impending “doom” were valid feelings, but they were NOT based on fact. So I started looking at FACTS. I didn’t want to “believe” them, but they were true, so I stressed to myself the FACTS.
1) anyone can get married in a few days IF THEY WILL SET THEIR SIGHTS LOW ENOUGH—if you are willing to settle for a loser or a wino….but I’m not willing to do that.
2) being in a relationship is not what makes me OK
Etc. So on, but it was slow going for a while, then all the other chaos from my P-son and the egg donor etc. distracted me for a while, but I got back on track and started looking at myself and what makes ME OK, what makes ME happy. Working on that. I can’t say it is an easy thing, but just ACCEPTING myself for what I am, who I am, and where I am in my “life cycle” I think is the key.
The couple of dates I had a few weeks back were really cool, but I didn’t get anxious about it because putting on an “act” and trying to “impress” this guy just wasn’t the important thing any more. Worrying about “what if he doesn’t like me”? Well, if he doesn’t that’s his loss….I am who i am.
I wish I had a “formula” to give you to follow step 1-2-3 etc. it is a work in progress I think, I know it is with me. Just work on being happy with who you are now!
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ThornBud says:
Oxy,
.
I just feel an urge to tell u smth, which i am sure is an general for LF:
Ur posts are priceless and for sure u can be our mascot
In my healing proces, since God took my hand and drowe me here, i hv learned alot about personality disordered ppl , but something strange happened while i was reading here, forward and backward, over again – suddenly i got AHA moment that my relation with my X and all the mess it caused are not the only reason i am coming here
I am coming here to learn and educate, IN GENERAL, sharing knowledge and life experience with wonderful, smart, STRONG PERSONALITY ppl.
Being here, reading between the lines, learning how to read Bible and discover the inner world, learning how to give and how to receive and soooooooo many other things makes me happy in all my pain. If i did not hv an experience with N/P , my life would not be enriched the way it is with being a member of this wonderful little comunity and our virtuel friendship. U, Oxy, are breathing a soul for this site, for all of us, and i just have to say: Thank u
Bless u all
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OxDrover says:
Thank you ThornBud, I am glad you are gaining so much from LF, and I am glad that my words encourage you. I think the hardest part of it all, (the pain from the betrayals of the psychopaths) is that we feel so ALONE in this—it is sort of like childbirth I think….it is a “do it yourself” pain, no one can take it away, but they can hold your hand while you endure it, but many times the very person we want to hold our hands is the very person who is giving us the pain, the psychopath themselves. So, it is very confusing.
When I found LF, Donna’s story was so inspiring for me, and Liane’s, Louise’s and others who wrote here including the bloggers. I’ve been here a couple of years and had been on another site for about six or eight months before that, but the flamming on the other site drove me away. This site is so calm, peaceful and the bloggers are so caring of each other, I knew I had found a place to express my pain and start to heal.
I’ve seen in the two years or so I have been here many people come and post and stay a while then move on and I am sure there are others who read and don’t post for a while (if ever). For me, staying here helps ME as much or more than it helps others I think, because as I think about an article or a post, I have to apply it to MY life as well. In many ways we are like a cyber AA group, only instead of booze it is the addictions to the fantasy of the psychopath’s love. Encouraging others is the only way I can stay “sober” and keep my feet on the path of healing.
I’m glad you are here ThornBud, I’m glad that we all have the opportunity to reach out and touch another former victim, and we can all hold hands as we learn about ourselves as well as the psychopaths. (((hugs)))) and God bless you as you grow!
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ThornBud says:
Ur words :Encouraging others is the only way I can stay “sober” and keep my feet on the path of healing, dear Oxy, are so true! Sometimes, while sharing and encouraging others, we are waking up and we just get that AHA moment. It was there, ready to popup, we even weren’t aware of its presence. Sharing is mighty help in many ways, on many aspects, usefull for receiver as much as for giver.
I am just affraid i will become addicted to LF
Yeah, just realized how true is that we never know what benefit we are gonna get from pain and “lost”.
Stay well and stay safe, dear, and all of LF’s
Huggs
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OxDrover says:
Dear ThornBud,
Being “addicted” to LF may be like an alcoholic becoming “addicted to AA” it sure beats the ALTERNATIVE!
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Twice Betrayed says:
You know….I keep in shape-run/lift weights, eat right [want to lose weight fast and do your health a favor? Cut out all sugar/flour and watch the weight peel off], keep my skin good…do all the things necessary to stay fit and younger looking…and people tell me I look twenty years younger than I am. I did this all thru our marriage…I never let myself go…and he did badly. Still…he was never satisfied. So: I still do all this BUT this time I do it for me/my self- esteem/my health. Today is my BD and it’s a biggie…but, I bought myself a sequined dress [tad shorter too
] and I am going to the symphony with a dear friend. I don’t want/need an intimate relationship with a male…and it’s just fine. [I really don't believe in lasting faithful true love anymore on the part of the male...I am too badly burned]. I am so glad to be out of that hell that I find something good each and every day about the peace I have. NO more games/torture/cruelty ….just the quiet peace of my animals and my few close friends. And wonderful LF full of people that have been there.
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