Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild”
PDF By Ox Drover
Something occurred recently that set my mind to thinking. My best friend who lives another state came to visit me for a couple of weeks. This friend has known me about 30 years, so has known both of my biological sons, including the psychopathic one, since they were kids. She has “been there” for me through all the trauma, the disappointments and the pain. She was there for me when my husband died in the aircraft crash and my adopted son was burned. She was there for me and for my oldest son when his wife tried to kill him. So she has seen many of the psychopaths I have dealt with “up close and personal” and she has seen the toxic enabling my mother has done and is doing with my P-son by sending him money, even after he tried to have me killed. There is no one on earth who can reasonably “validate” that I have been the victim of multiple psychopaths during my life than she can.
I remember when I went to the EMDR (rapid eye movement therapist). During my first intake interview, which lasted over two hours, as I detailed the large numbers of psychopaths who were conspiring to have me killed and had run me out of my home in fear of my life, the man very politely listened and showed interest in my tale of woe, which could almost be labeled “Pitiful Pauline’s Terrible Trials,” to use an old serial movie title. At the end of the session, he was careful to word his request, since I had told him I was a retired medical and mental health professional, that I “bring in someone to confirm” my stories, which to him, I don’t doubt, sounded like the ramblings of a “paranoid delusional schizophrenic.” When he made this request, in his very diplomatic manner, I actually threw back my head and laughed and said, “Yep, I do sound like a paranoid schizophrenic, I know, but I will be glad to bring in both witnesses and documentation to verify my stories.” Which, the next visit, I brought in court documents and rap sheets and mug shots, newspaper clippings, and my adopted son to verify that I wasn’t just “paranoid,” that there were indeed a conspiracy of psychopaths “out to get me.”
My own tall tales
Because I have lived a life that is pretty much out of the norm for a kid who grew up in the boondocks of rural Arkansas, and in some instances, done some things that are sort of along the lines of an “Indiana Jones” character, I learned pretty early in my young adult life that many people will disbelieve you if you “tell exciting stories” that are too far off the “norm” of most people’s lives. They view you more in the line of someone who, like my neighbor, “Crazy Bob,” tells tales of his years in the FBI, CIA, his Congressional Medal of Honor, his 5,000 parachute jumps, and him being a Navy Seal, all the while being too dumb to know that no one has ever made 5,000 parachute jumps.
Even if “Crazy Bob’s” stories are unbelievable to most people, some of my stories are as unbelievable, of flying cargos of live animals in and out of South America in a salvaged WWII B-25 bomber, or living in the bush for months at a time, or catching thousand-pound crocodiles at night from a 25 ft. canoe in the delta of the Nile, or the crazy camel driver at the pyramids who was paid to let me ride his camel. The only differences between my unbelievable stories and “Crazy Bob’s” are that I can prove mine with photographs, newspaper articles, passport stamps, pilot’s log books and other documents as well as living witnesses who were there with me.
A man who has been my friend for about 15 years told me, “When I first met you, I thought you were some kind of ‘blow hard’ who made up these outlandish stories, it wasn’t until later, I realized that you were telling the truth.” This man is not the first, but I do hope, will be one of the last people who “hears my stories” and disbelieves because they sound “so outlandish, no one could have done all those things, or had so many psychopaths target them.”
Is every jerk a psychopath?
Even my friend of 30-plus years asked me as I was chattering on about some guy I thought to be a psychopath, “Are you starting to label everyone you know who is a jerk, a psychopath?”
This comment sort of surprised me, so I said, “No, I don’t think so, let me tell you why I think this man is a psychopath, though I didn’t realize it at the time I had a business interaction with him. First, he left his wife of 25 years while she was dying of cancer, leaving her destitute and alone, then he showed up at her funeral with his girlfriend sitting beside him, then he stole the inheritance of the daughter of a deceased friend after he had gotten himself appointed the executor, and then I added a few more incidents to his “psychopathic con-man resume.”
My friend then replied, “Yea, he does sound like a psychopath.”
Psychopaths I have known
Not too long ago I sat down and decided to make a “list of the psychopaths I have known, been related to, and/or who had hurt me/others significantly in interactions with them.” First off, of course, was my “sperm donor psychopath”, and I actually know of two men he killed. One of my maternal g-grandfathers was an abusive alcoholic. My “egg donor’s” brother, Uncle Monster, was a vicious, violent wife-beating, woman-hating man. Then there was Charles “Jackie” Walls III, who was a Boy Scout leader in our small town who was tried and convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the over 1,500 cases of child molestation that are known of. There was the covertly psychopathic teacher I had in nursing school whom I saw over and over persecute and target certain students, primarily males, for several years. Though she never targeted me, I finally became so afraid of her that in the middle of the program, I changed universities and drove 40 miles further for the last two years of my schooling just to get away from her.
I also listed covertly vicious physicians and nurses I had worked with for quite some time, directors of programs I had worked with, business partners of my husband who literally stole his business and bankrupted it, working together, and lying in depositions to the court. (One of them did, later, go to prison for conviction in a very similar scam in which they got caught, but they got away with the scam against my husband.)
All in all, when I finished the list of people that I had known closely enough to know their histories and to see some of their covertly malicious behavior targeting others or targeting businesses, I had, just off the top of my head, a list of 45 people that I knew who would have rated at least a 20, and more likely a 30, on the PCL-R. Many of these people were “respected” physicians, attorneys, Boy Scout leaders, psychological counselors, psychiatrists, surgeons, school teachers, police men, ministers, prison officials, prison guards, college presidents, businessmen, politicians, media stars, and others were “known” and convicted convicts and ex-convicts. Some few were “overt” psychopaths committing murder and other crimes of violence and not caring who knew they were “dangerous.” Others were “covert” psychopaths trying to protect their “public mask” of kind and caring people.
Of course, at the time I was working with or interacting with these people I had no idea that they were “toxic” and “dangerous,” and their public face, in “responsible” positions of college president, or minister of a church, was intact. Even when in some few cases I was actually warned that these people couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t listen to the warnings. When they began to target me and to covertly attack me (“stab me in the back” is the common vernacular) I felt the knife go in, but couldn’t for the life of me figure out why! Of course they were smiling and “playing nice” as they stabbed me, and if I “whined” about the pain I was feeling, then they “couldn’t understand” why I should be feeling and sensing that I was being attacked, of course they didn’t see any “knife in my back.”
Overt and covert
I had learned after the encounter with my sperm donor, who was an openly violent man and “proud” of his homicidal violence, to stay away from overtly dangerous people. I had taken great pains to stay away from the “low lifes” in the community, the heavy-drinking, fighting, strutting “bad boys.”
What I hadn’t learned until the last couple of years, though, is that there are probably, I estimate, six or eight “covert” psychopaths for every one or two “overtly” violent psychopaths. Though Scot Peterson and the BTK killer were actually very physically violent to their victims, they tried to present to the public this “good guy” mask to hide their psychopathic violence. These men were eventually convicted of their violent activities, just as Charles “Jackie” Walls III was convicted and his mask of “community leader and Boy Scout leader” was jerked off his face.
Not every “domestic abuser” goes to jail or makes the statistics. I don’t know what the real statistics are of overt and covert domestic violence, and I am sure that no one else knows, either, of the men/women who physically assault their spouses behind closed doors and nothing is ever known by anyone except the victim and the abuser. Many times, I think, not even the children in the family know the truth of what goes on behind “mommy’s and daddy’s bedroom door.” Unfortunately, too many of the victims take the shame of the beatings on to themselves, and “keep the family secrets” intact.
The statistical estimates of “how many psychopaths are there?” range from 1 percent to 4 percent of the general population, while about 20 percent of incarcerated felons are rated as psychopathic. While many victims may only recognize one psychopath in their lives, there are others of us who have repeatedly been targeted by them.
Crossing paths with psychopaths
Why us in particular? Possibly, we were born into a family highly populated with overt or covert psychopaths. Possibly we are adventurous and, as many psychopaths engage in high-risk or adventurous professions or past-times, we come into contact with a “pool” highly populated by psychopaths due to the adventurousness of our profession or recreational activities.
I spent time working for my sperm donor as a wildlife photographer in South and Central America, Europe, Africa and the American west, and the adventurousness of the profession attracts people who are highly involved in “risk taking” activities like self employment, film production, international travel, general aviation, and dangerous hunting activities. Therefore, it isn’t surprising to me, looking back now, that several of the men who were involved in my sperm donor’s enterprises were psychopaths.
Though my late husband was a man addicted to a “high-risk” and adventurous profession, general aviation, he was not a psychopath, but that profession brought him into contact with my sperm donor, and also many other psychopaths. Many were wealthy, famous and infamous men that, in retrospect, I consider high in narcissistic and/or psychopathic traits, Richard Nixon for one.
Identifying the psychopath
Learning to identify people with “covert” psychopathic traits in the “wild” is much more difficult than identifying “overtly dangerous” people with psychopathic traits, since most of the people who are “overtly dangerous” will swagger around “looking like a thug” and wanting to impress you with their potential for violence. It is sort of like the difference between the pit bull dog who bares his teeth and growls, versus the dog that quietly sneaks up behind you and sinks his teeth into your calf without any warning growl.
In either case, the best test of either the overt or the covert psychopath is their behavior, rather than what they say. If you observe someone do something (anything) to another person that you deem unjustified, ugly, nasty, hateful, revengeful, etc., then you should be very careful around that person and be watchful of them.
A friend of mine who was a dean of students at a prestigious college was literally sexually attacked by one of her fellow vice-presidents of that college; fortunately she was able to get away from him. Six months later, though, when he was appointed the new college president, his first act was to fire her. She hadn’t seen it coming. She was not only devastated, but was shocked and surprised. She shouldn’t have been. She had been warned that this man was a psychopath by his drunken sexual attack, but she kept her mouth shut at that time rather than “cause a stir.” Later, her silence at the time of the attack cost her her job.
The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.
Another thing that is against our being validated when we observe and “label” these instances of psychopathic behavior is the lack of validation we get from others who also know this person, but are not nearly as aware of what it “means” as we (former victims) are. They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John” or “Well, he probably didn’t mean it that way” or “Oh, just get along and play nice.”
The covert psychopath may not be physically violent at all, but instead, may only engage in emotional and mental abuse of his/her victims by demeaning and degrading them with subtle put downs. The covert psychopath may also do financial or career damage to their targets, and a covert smear campaign against a co-worker or boss can destroy a career or a reputation.
No understandable motive
Because we, many times, fail to see a “motive” that we can understand for the behavior of the covert psychopath, it makes it difficult for us (and others) to believe that “s/he would do that,” because we cannot see what s/he would gain. Unfortunately, many times the “motive” of the psychopath is the same answer as the mountain climber gave for climbing a very difficult peak, “Just because it’s there and I wanted to prove I could do it.”
It might be fairly easy, you would think, to spot the “overt bad boys” by going to a “bad part of town” or “gang turf” and looking at the guys swaggering in and out of bars or selling drugs on the street and say “that guy acts like a psychopath,” and you might even be right in your assessment, but maybe not. But you can’t be sure you are not dealing with a psychopath at a debutante ball, or a civic meeting, or a political rally, a church group, or a business meeting either, because the fact that people there are cleaner, better educated and dress nicer doesn’t make them less apt to be a psychopath.
My sperm donor used to tell the press that he was “eccentric” and “the reason he was ‘eccentric,’ instead of ‘crazy’ was because he was rich!” Unfortunately, I think in many ways he was right, as people who are in a powerful position because of fame, money or other reasons, seem to be allowed more range in the behavior that is considered “acceptable” than those of us who are not so rich or powerful. Their power over other’s lives, finances, and emotions I think is what feeds their egos and their sense of entitlement to “control” others. Those of the human race who are not high in psychopathic and narcissistic traits don’t usually consider “control over others” to be a stand-alone motive to use, abuse and manipulate other’s lives for their own joy. That being said, it is difficult for us to see this as a viable motive in others who do have the psychopathic traits.
Survival skill
Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. Whether their natural habitat is in the school room, the board room, the court room, the dining room, or the bedroom, we need to watch for the signs of deception and signs of lack of empathy, even the very subtle signs that these people have an ulterior motive in their interactions with us and/or others. We need to listen to our “guts” and our “intuition” and to validate this information ourselves, rather than doubt ourselves. Even if no one else on earth thinks that what “John is doing” is pathological, we need to have the self-awareness to watch out for ourselves if we spot a “red flag” of pathological behavior or attitude in someone.
To answer my best friend’s question again, I think I would add, “No, I am not labeling everyone who is a jerk a psychopath, but I am no longer excusing bad behavior on anyone’s part. I am keeping my eyes open for signs of people without moral compasses and I am distancing myself from them as far as I can.”
written by Joyce Alexander • Permalink •
justabouthealed says:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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skylar says:
happy BD, TB!
Have a wonderful time at the symphony. I wish we could see you in the sequined dress!
You’re right about the flour and sugar. that stuff is poison. skip the cheese too if you want to lose weight.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Thank you so much for the birthday wishes!!! You are all so kind and encouraging! Thanks for being here! ((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))
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shabbychic says:
TB
Happy Birthday!! 
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OxDrover says:
Dear Twice,
happy 29th birthday! I am glad you are going out and all dolled up! It does us good to get out and among them once in a while!!!! What a wonderful treat to yourself!
Congratulations and many many MANY MORE!!! (((HUGS))))
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geminigirl says:
Dearest Twice Betrayed, have a wonderful Birthday, you go girl! Have a wonderful day! You are doing great, we all love you.!! Many Happy Returns. XxGem.{{{HUGS}}}PS,-
My Mum told me that when she was a very small girl, she thought it was, “Many Hapiry Turns,” and that you had to turn around over and over, till you were giddy! So have some “Hapiry Turns” for me!!
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Twice Betrayed says:
Thanks to all you great and wonderful ladies!! Too cute: Hapiry Turns!
I will share my BD story with you all. I went to a local small store here that sells some cute things. I have a young friend that works there….sweet girl. Her name is Jenny. So sweet and kind to me. Knows what I’ve been thru. [Her manager is having the same problems with her hubby now...he has basically abandoned her. So: these ladies are super good to me. ] This young lady picked out this sequined dress and told me to wear it. I was just not secure enough to do it. You know it was about four inches above the knee. And tight fitting sequined no less. I picked out something more conservative and she said…NOPE, this is the symphony but…..it’s a Motown celebration and these ladies knew how to dress. I love all this music and I know you all do too. She said: you gotta wear this dress. I tried it on and was so nervous to wear it. Old trauma from my X slamming me age wise etc. She said: girl wear this dress and I expect pictures. I bought both outfits intending on wearing the more conservative one. But…I decided to wear the sequined one. I was so nervous. It was deep purple sequines and I had deep purple sky high pumps to wear with it. And a dressy black short jacket. I wore barely there hose [I tan my legs in a leg tanner so they are tan]. My friend said….whoa….you look great so my self esteem picked up a tad. Well, listen to this….I got to the symphony and a lady walked up to me with her teen daughter and said….”I am not being rude or crazy or anything but my daughter said: Look at that lady with the Tina Turner legs….and we just had to tell you….Girl, you rock that dress!!!!” I WAS STUNNED! Imagine that…Tina Turner legs….I almost started crying. After all this X had said to me…tearing me down, down down. I had a great time….and the music was so fun. I stepped back in time with Marvin Gaye, The Supremes, etc. I felt like Cindrella that the fairy god mother had granted a wish to….[sans Prince but hey, it's ok!
:):)] Thanks, hugs and love to you all!!!!
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skylar says:
TB!!!
You have Tina Turner legs???!
you have to tell us about your exercise routine. I have starving african refuge child legs! LOL. I need to hear how to get TT legs. consider it your gift from you to us.
The exP once told me “No one will ever want you!” that was instead of “good morning”. LOL. that was when I was in my fat stage, but i was never as fat as HE was.
I’m so glad you had a great bday. wooooohooooo, TB!!!
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Twice Betrayed says:
skylar: Girl: you are soooo funny!!! Thanks for the good wishes…I had fun for the first time in years and years on my BD. I had forgotten what fun was…nobody played games on my head and nobody tore me down…..I liked it!
I know….these P guys….tell us things like that…while they are wayyyyy outta shape. Just never ceases to amaze me. There my X was fat/balding and in terrible health. I guess maybe in their own eyes they still look like they did when they were young. They are after all: “Legends in their own minds.” AHAHAHAHAHA!
I do this walk/sprint. I only do it for fifteen minutes five/six days a week. I learned it from Jessica Simpson. You walk for one minute then sprint/or fast walk full out for thirty seconds. Do it for fifteen minutes daily. If someone needs to loose weight faster…do it fifteen minutes twice daily. That and I do arm exercises with ten pound weights three days a week, three sets of 10 reps. Then I do eight minutes of abs of steel three times weekly. That’s it.
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kim frederick says:
TB, If you’ve got it, flaunt it! I’m so glad you wore THE dress. Happy Birthday.
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Twice Betrayed says:
Thanks, Kim! I am not twenty any more [as my PX hub always reminded me....well...guess what? He wasn't either, but it didn't stop him from chasing and buying 19 year olds!], but it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed myself. This is the time of the woman…we can have younger men, wear younger clothing longer, look younger easier and base our self worth on us and our values. I do like that and I intend to embrace it as much as I dare to….:):):)
Now to settle in and accept this birthday number. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
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Stargazer says:
Happy birthday, TB!!!! You are my new hero for wearing that dress. I only wish we could see a picture. I can only imagine how fabulous you looked. You go, girl!
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Twice Betrayed says:
Stargazer: thanks so much!!!!! I stepped out a new me….and I was shaky….but hey, we gotta do the ‘new us!” LOLOLOLOL!
I have a friend whose 82 year old mother is soooooo cool. Actually, she is cooler than my friend….ahahahaha! This lady dresses sharp, works full time in her gift shop, drives for miles on the freeway at seventy [sometimes faster!]MPH to various shopping centers in high traffic areas, shops for younger clothes, goes to dances, plays, movies etc. And…wears her hair young, her fingernails long and red and embraces womanhood with full fury. She is one fun lady. She cuts jokes and says some of her boyfriends were hunks. And….get this…her 100 year old mom likes Elvis…. Bwaaahahahahaha! I asked my friend what the grandmom wanted for Christmas…and they told me this info. I went to Graceland and bought her Elvis socks, etc….and she wears them. Is this not just a hoot???? Ahahahahaha! And….get this…the gran got married again [she was a a widow] at 92!!!!!! He was 3 years older and still worked every day on his farm. I could not help it…I asked my friend what they did on the ‘honeymoon’ and we all laughed our butts off….but then we looked at each other and said: “Could it be?” Ahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
[he passed away last year…heart attack…so we will never know. ;p
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ErinBrockovich says:
Twice: aka Tina……
Whooooaaaa!
HAAAAPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYY BIIIIRRRRRTTTTHHHHDDDAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!
It’s all in the attitude girl…….YOU GO GIRL!!!!
As Dianna Ross sang…..Aint no mountain high enough…….
Happy Birthday…..you deserve the best!
XXOO
eb
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Twice Betrayed says:
EB: thanks, girl! Rock on!
High five! *GIRL POWER!
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audrey says:
This is my first post, but I have been reading your site for a few months after my own unpleasant brush with a garden variety psychopath (no physical violence or fraud involved). In truth I wasn’t even in a relationship with this creature, but he played best friends with me for a few months until the novelty wore off and he moved on to greener pastures. Yet, given the unsurprising intensity of the psychopatic bond, I was seized by an almost manic need to search for explanations for his inexplicable behaviour. Why would a young, smart, good looking, charming guy engage in such a never ending array of destructive and self-destructive activities? What were all his endless (and mostly pointless) lies, callousness, pathological envy, aggressive behaviours, and ill-disguised desire to hurt all about? It just didn’t make sense, until google threw back ASPD (which I know now not to be entirely accurate but it was a good starting point nevertheless) to one of my queries and the floodgates opened: I started reading books, academic articles, the popular press, your wonderful site, and anything psycho-related I could get my hands on. I just had to learn as much as I could about the subject to minimise my risk of getting in a similar situation again. Even if I can’t say that my encounter with this particular psychopath broke my heart, it nonetheless made for an extremely unpleasant experience that shot my anxiety levels through the roof as he happened to be my next door neighbour and move in my same social circle. Hard to go No Contact there. And of course, after I finished mourning the loss of this phantom friendship, I realised that he had shattered my confidence in my own judgement and, for a while, people in general. Sadness gave way to hatred.
HOWEVER. After spending a few weeks labelling every person that rubbed me the wrong way a psychopath, I realised that mine was just a knee jerk reaction to the pain and humiliation caused by my personal run-in with one of these creatures. Coming to terms with somebody else’s personality disorder was giving ME a personality disorder: paranoia. Of course there have always been unsavoury people in my life. My father is a narcissist and even though 28 years of brick wall (non)communication should have clued me in, I only put my finger on the problem when I discovered the existence of the DSM. I am well educated with a postgraduate degree and all, but through a combination of sheer luck and abundant naivety I had never before felt the need to instruct myself about topics relatively alien to me like mental illness and human evil.
Anyway, your blog and other fine reads made me realise that my best friend’s ex-boyfriend who: 1. beat her up (’but he was sooooo sorry after he realised he gave me a black eye!’) 2. stole from her (’it was only a few hundred euros… I am sure he had an emergency’) 3. abandoned his two young sons from a previous relationship (’their mother is a witch and wouldn’t let him see them!’) before 4. finally abandoning her for a richer woman willing to marry him straight away (he needed a green card) – is very likely a psychopath. And oh, when my friend dared be upset at his impromptu change of plans – actually, change of bride to be – he flew into a rage that escalated into a vicious emotional assault as she started crying. Her tears IRRITATED him. So yeah, definitely a psychopath.
But what about the other ones? The ex-school friend, teacher, co-worker, boss, date, travel mate, neighbour, friend’s boyfriend, boyfriend’s sister and anyone else in my life who has shown coldness, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, shallowness, aggression etc? Psychopaths only comprise 1% of the population, so how can I possibly have known 10-20 of them, whether directly or by proxy, over the last decade? I do meet a lot of people through my job and travels, but quite frankly there is no way that an average person (or even one with an adventurous lifestyle) can get to know 2000 people well enough to confidently make a diagnosis of psychopathy. No matter how good we are at spotting red flags and danger signs: psychopathy is an all-encompassing, all-pervasive mental make up which cannot be reduced to sporadic or selective amoral behaviours. I am pretty confident that I would not qualify as a psychopath on any accepted clinical test, even though I need excitement more than the average person, I am impulsive, can be quite manipulative (through charm), and have hurt people without feeling guilty. Does that make me a psychopath? No. According to Hare and pretty much the whole psychiatric community, we ALL, with the exclusion of a handful of saintly individuals, exhibit psychopathic traits at some point in our lives. Stress, anxiety, worry, fear, pain, need, and just the sheer impossibility to please all of the people all of the time can numb our conscience and make us act in ways that we might either regret or rationalise – yes, just like real psychopaths! – later. Even though I try my best not to hurt people’s feelings sometimes I do – and then regret it sorely. And other times I just think that the obnoxious guy who keeps hitting on me even though I am clearly uninterested in his shenanigans just deserves to be told to *uck off. I don’t care about his feelings at that point. He is spoiling my night. He is IRRITATING me – a typical psychopathic rationalisation that does not make me a psychopath.
My point is, while most of the time I feel genuinly horrified at the stories I read on your site, I have also noticed a tendency to extrapolate way too much from the behaviour of people observed from afar, for a very short time, and in only one aspect of their lives. Just to make an example (see post on 22nd of July), the boyfriend of Elizabeth Conley’s neighbour who needs babysitting for his daughter because, according to him, his ex-wife is a drug addict could certainly be a psychopath. Or he could just be the father of an unfortunate kid whose mother is indeed a drug addict. After all, why would a psychopath even bother to find someone to babysit his daughter if he could just dump her with his ex-wife? Psychopaths DON’T CARE about their children’s welfare. Sure he could have a hidden agenda. But he could equally be a concerned father. Or a decent person who is still angry at his ex-wife for having slighted him. How do we know? Shall we really suspect the existence of a psychopatic party in every relationship that doesn’t move according to our preferred timetable? People are different. And even if this guy were crazily, irrationally vindictive towards his ex-wife, he could still be perfectly able to love and treat others with respect. Slandering his ex could be an isolated incident. After all, even amongst wife beaters only 25% are psychopaths.
Now, I obviously agree that an abuser is an abuser is an abuser and we should all steer clear of them. However, failing to distinguish between real psychopaths and other mentally disordered individuals could have disastrous consequences. Psychopathy is hard wired and cannot be changed: we simply cannot install complex emotions (ie: Photoshop) on Charles Manson’s brain (ie: Commodore 64). The capacity is just not there. But we can treat and improve compulsive tendencies, poor behaviour control (where the ability to feel remorse is present), schizophrenia, depression, alcoholism and many other mental ills conducive to abusive behaviours if there is enough processing power. Lumping everyone who behaves in a way we don’t like under the psychopathic umbrella breeds complacency (because psychopaths are untreatable) and thus deprives people who could benefit from therapy of a chance to improve their lives and that of their long suffering families.
A pocket Freud diagnosis of psychopathy based on flimsy evidence and ill-informed hunches is also extremely damaging for the person who receives one. In fact, accusing someone of being a psychopath without copious proof tantamounts to slandering, which is sinisterly similar to what real psychopaths do to people THEY don’t like.
Finally, while there is no doubt that individuals with unpleasant traits represent more than 1% of the population, if we are talking about unrepentant con men (whether their frauds are financial or emotional) whose brains are evolutionarily different from ours, the number of people who are deemed such on this site seems a bit excessive. My personal opinion is that for Lovefraud to continue being a lifeboat for people who have been at loggerheads with a real predator we should try to be stricter with labels and definitions, rather than taking cheap shots at every suspected jerk that crosses our path. The risk of not doing so is ending up with another bitchy broken hearts club rather than a site that helps people come to terms with the incomprehensible behaviours of a thankfully rarer subspecies of human beings.
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skylar says:
audrey,
thank you for posting a very reasonable and well thought out perspective. You are right about everything you say. But I’d like to add a broader perspective to yours which may explain why we at LF are so vigilent.
The fact is this personality disorder falls on a spectrum from mild to severe. The reason for this is that we are all born narcissists. The degree to which we grow away from the narcissistic thinking and behavior is what defines HOW MUCH OF A NARCISSIST WE REMAIN. And then you have also heard us mention “our inner P”. We all have the capability to harden our hearts to empathy (some more than others) while we deal with the real world of cutthrout narcissists. Stress, anger and just being tired increases the “baby behavior” in anyone.
For those of us who have lived with a P for many years and then also studied the books, our antenae are more finally tuned to a P than someone who might have encountered a P for a shorter time.
But the fact is, no one can ever know what another person is actually thinking, so based on that we can’t call anyone a narcissist because we don’t know that they have chosen to be evil. So all we can do is make a judgement call based on the selfishness of the behavior, the damage to others, and the callousness with which all pleas for mercy are recieved.
I feel that you are basing your numbers on a very old and inaccurate measurement. I think that there are more than 1%.
If you want to learn about narcissism in our culture, you can read books such as : http://www.reviews.ctpdc.co.uk/lasch.html
It is a wakeup call to the spiral of our society into the depths of narcissism. That doesn’t happen when only 1% are narcissists.
Here at LF, we are not actually trying to wake up the world, we are just trying to wake up the people who are in dangerously abusive relationships so that they will survive. Being far away, we must err on the side of caution when we advise someone to beware and be safe. Also, we are here to provide nurture and support for people in a very emotionally vulnerable situation.
After the person is safe then we advise learning, reading, investigating on their own. So that they can make their own judgements, just as you have.
I just posted elsewhere that I would love to have a non-profit that dedicates itself to educating people about every aspect of the dangers of narcissism. If we ever did that we would really need someone like you: objective, cautious and analytical.
Another wonderful woman who writes about narcissism is “Anna”. I could not do justice to her wonderful post about discerning a jerk from a narcissist, so i will just link her here.
http://narcissists-suck.blogsp.....rview.html
What she says is that the difference is between people who struggle with selfish impulses and those who EMBRACE them.
After being with a narcissist, you can tell who is embracing and who is not.
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Easy says:
If it smells Like poop? and tastes like poop! and feels like poop! Don’t step in it!
It is really simple, some people are chit! you can take the white trash out of the getto but you cant take the getto outa the white trash! Most people are trash!
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ErinBrockovich says:
Audrey:
I appreciate your perspecitve and well written and posted opiniion.
I agree with some of your thoughts and coming from an extremely destructive long term relationship and loss of familial relationships I would not ever wish to be in this position again. I am not sure I could survive it…..with all the aspects of Sociopathic behaviors. I am fully aware of the pain involved and destruction of health.
Again, recovering our lives is an evolution…..I think we all become hyper vigilant and err on the side of paranoia at times…..The destruction is nonexplainable to someone never experiencing it.
I do think it’s wrong to label every jerk a S or any label….but it’s the ‘practice’ in recognizing them. It evolves to a more realistic view of society…..but remember every inch of our being and thoughts have been undermined by the behaviors.
It a healing process we must visit to find our ground again with the society we live in, come to grips with the dangers moving forward.
I think the stat you have of 1% is way off…..My stats are 1 in 4 persons exhibit these traits on some level……so look around now…..with that in mind and it’s very conveivable you know many many toxic persons…….a vineyard varietal….take your pick……
Does it matter what the label is……will you get involved with a Sociopath but not a psychopath? A Narcissist but not a malignant narcissist…….No….you have come close enough….you have done your homework, become aware and educated on it……you will avoid any of them at all costs I bet.
Are you going to get cozy with them…..because you can’t label them……i think not…..it’s all about recognizing the behaviors and steering clear out of self preservation and protection.
Are you suggesting that Mary Jo Buttufuoco shouldn’t label……
The thing is…..these persons nestle in the cracks of non diagnosis…..because they do not need help….it’s you, me…their faults….blame, blame, blame, con, con, con!
It’s like saying I’m not a smoker because you don’t ever see me smoke……
Or I am not a criminal because I didn’t get caught/convicted….
Are you defined as a criminal, NO! Are you not a criminal? Yes….it’s teh behaviors that make you a criminal….not the conviction.
My ex said he wasn’t a drug dealer, he was never convicted……I saw it, the kids saw it…….He WILL NEVER convince us as others who didn’t witness it, that he is not a drug dealer…..I never refer to him as a convicted drug dealer…..but he is still a drug dealer!
I will always err on the side of caution and call a spade a spade…..
I WAS MARRIED TO AN UNDIAGNOSED MALIGNANT NARCISSISTIC DRUG DEALING SOCIOPATH!
I don’t recommend we go out and start yelling sociopath on the street…..but i do think the awareness to society is imperative to curbing the behaviors……again a crack they nestle into….no one knows……people are not aware and continue to make excuses for the odd, cumulitive behaviors….
I think it boils down to protection and self preservation, becasue I don’t believe any one of the LF members have it in them to walk blindly into the arms of another sociopath or whatever you wish to call them.
We are here to support each other through the healing process, regaining life……life consists of work, child rearing, self esteem, education, divorces, dating, home purchases, losses, illnesses, advocating, custody, lonliness, news, awareness…….whatever our members are going through and how our feelings in regards to the topic du jour have been affected moving forward and how they affect each of us reading the posts…….
It’s all about the healing……and I think we are in a very effective healing and awareness site.
I’m glad you got away from bigger troubles and ‘got it’ quick.
Your a very lucky person and I hope you take your new education and awareness in to a lifetime of wonderful relationshiops.
Thanks for your contribution.
XXOO
EB
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Twice Betrayed says:
Well, I am a bottom line person….I can’t see getting into some long winded philosophical debate on whether a person is a psychopath or not. [I agree with easy: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....] I’ve lived long enough and experienced enough in life to realize it’s not worth our time and it really does not achieve much in the way of knowledge or agreement. To quote Mark Twain: “I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.”
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Twice Betrayed says:
easy, skylar, EB–very good posts.
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kim frederick says:
Audrey, I can appreciate your point of view. I think sometimes we are a bit hasty in labeling others as PSN’s, it’s the,” see one behind every bush” syndrome…but under the circumstances, it’s understandable. I believe that recovery is a process, and for those of us that are just beginning our journey, it can be quite exhillarating to finally have a way of comprehending what has happened to us. It is a way to take back power and control in our lives, and just being able to NAME it feels wonderful!
I’m glad you’re here, and I’m glad you shared your concerns. I hope we’ll hear from you again.
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skylar says:
I’ve posted twice that I just saw the movie “Doubt” with Meryl Streep but I just can’t stop thinking about it. And that movie really answers Audrey’s questions in so many ways.
Watching the older nun deal with the priest was amazing. She never had any DOUBT, and she expressed that it was because of EXPERIENCE. But the whole movie wasn’t about her relationship with the priest, it was also about how she treated all the children in the school. She was very strict. She allowed no nonsense because her experience had taught her that each time a child gets away with a little mischief, he becomes more mischievious. Making them think that they can NEVER get away with crap when they are very young, keeps them from going down the wrong road later in life. She was not a psychotherapist or a behavior therapist or even an animal trainer, but EXPERIENCE had taught her all she needed to know about the minds of children.
And she COULD see a narcissist coming a mile away.
It is such an interesting movie, I hope you all get a chance to rent it and watch it.
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OxDrover says:
I’m with Twice and mark Twain, I don’t want to let my education get in the way of my learning either!
Good points Audrey, but it isn’t about “labels” as much as behavior, when we speak of someone as a “psychopath” (ASPD or Sociopath) we are saying, in effect, “S/he displayed these traits.” We are NOT making a legal “diagnosis” of this person, but an OBSERVATION of behavior.
None of us can read minds, but we do OBSERVE BEHAVIOR. and, like others have said, “if it looks like a duck….etc” but the BOTTOM LINE is that we recognize ANY manipulative or TOXIC person so we will not be caught in their webs.
Welcome, glad you are here! glad also that you did not get badly hurt over your encounter!
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Elizabeth Conley says:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/2.....06.article
Experts know 1 in 200 people are as pschopathic as a crazed murderer?
Maybe it’s sane to be a bit wary folks!
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OxDrover says:
Dear EC,
GREAT LINK! I hadn’t heard about this guy but to score 37 out of 40 must be the PCL-R. The scan they did on his brain is also interesting. To say that he cannot control himself though is absolutely in my mind ridiculous!
Someone posting under the handle “lovefraud” (Donna?) made the first post and that was a good one on the comments, couple of guys got into an argument about the death penalty, but obviously the guy doesn’t want to die, as he is fighting the death penalty. I bet you can figure out my idea on pro or con dealth penalty, but at the same time, I know that innocent people have been sent to death row and then years even decades later exonerated by DNA evidence.
I’m not sure what the evidence against this guy was/is as I am not familiar with the case except this one link, but to use psychopathy as a excuse for any crime is as bad I think as the “twinkie” defense, where the guy said eating too many chemicals in too many twinkies was responsible for his criminal behavior.
In certain cases I would be in favor of public hanging, drawinig and quartering. Most of the people for which I would “vote” for that death penalty there is NO doubt that they are guilty. John Wayne Gacy for example.
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brandywine says:
I have been a victim of a sociopath, and am only just now realizing a year and a month later, just what she is.
Two years ago, a female co-worker began showing an interest in my husband’s running. He also works with me. Eventually, her and her husband began doing races with mine, and they would work out together in the mornings. This woman started befriending me too, and we got really close.
I noticed that she and my husband were spending a lot of time together, but nothing seemed fishy. They were very public with their friendship, and since her husband was involved, I felt no need to worry.
Almost a year into their “friendship”, I started getting weird feelings. My husband hid $3000 from me from income tax return, and when I discovered it, he said he used it to try and pay his car off, but only made the payment AFTER our conversation. Her husband stopped coming to races. Family lunch after the races with her and my husbands’ family (who also ran) started to feel like I was the outsider and she was his wife. I noticed her watching him closely when he interacted with her 13 year old daughter. Ultimately, I started to feel like she was interested in him, and I had heard through the grapevine that she had cheated a few years back. Again, I hadn’t worried though, because she was a strong Christian woman-who spoke out vehemently against her supervisor recently busted for cheating. And, I didn’t sense that the feeling was reciprocal from him.
When he left me, I told him that people would think he was leaving me for her-not realizing he was. She left her husband that same night. They moved in together a week and a half later.
I met with her husband to compare stories, and found out that she admitted a 6 month affair, after she thought I had found out. Her husband and I really bonded through this experience, and fell completely in love-and are now married. I am happier than I’ve ever been, but because I’m with him-I can’t get rid of her or my ex, as if working with them isn’t bad enough.
Looking back now, and stumbling across descriptions of sociopaths, I clearly see that she is, and so was my ex, to an extent. Neither of them felt true remorse for their behavior. Of course they cried and said they were sorry, but both felt justified in their behavior.
Even though she hurt me and her ex, she convinced herself and my ex and his whole family that somehow she is the victim in all this. In fact, she has his family so wrapped and duped that even though they were MY family for 14 years, they completely cut me off and fully embraced her IMMEDIATELY, as though I never existed. And because sociopaths work in stealth mode, I can never see her operating, and therefore defend myself. As a classic sociopath trait, she has numerous times tried to convince me that she was justified in her behavior by citing neglect on the part of her husband. I of course let her know that I didn’t accept that as an excuse since my husband had been spending four hours with her exercising every day, and I wasn’t cheating. Of course-that was four hours away from her husband too-who had to stop running because of knee injuries. She won’t rest until I tell her that was she did was okay. Sociopaths need willing victims.
I can’t believe that I was friends with her nearly a year, and never saw this other side of her. When she is called out-she turns into a wild animal. She lies so easily. As long as you believe her lies, she will continue to flatter you and make you feel comfortable, but the moment you don’t, she turns on you.
Other sociopath traits she appears to have:
Numerous affairs over the years on her first and second husbands. It’s amazing what people tell you after the relationship is over.
Seemingly hating her ex more than she loves her children…putting them in positions of “choosing” often
An extreme sense of entitlement, and belief that she is better than everybody else.
She is ALWAYS smiling/laughing AND complimenting.
Her relationship with her own family is extremely strained and distant
Unfortunately because of the circumstances, especially with a child involved, I feel so stuck. I can’t do anything to defend or retaliate. Anything that me or my husband say gets twisted and told to the child-because the sociopath thrives off sympathy-guilt-and manipulation. And since the woman seems like Mother Theresa to everybody else, if I try and tell what she is really like-people think I’m crazy/petty or still angry that she stole my husband-which, actually, I’m not. He was a loser, and I’m way better off now.
Anyway, I’m struggling to maintain my sanity while dealing with her and would love any suggestions.
Brandy
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purewaters3 says:
Great job on the article, Oxdrover.
I think your overall point is great – about just distancing yourself from ANYONE who demonstrates abusive behavior towards anyone/anything.
If they will do it to someone else, they WILL do it to you.
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OxDrover says:
Thank you Pure4Water3.
Brandywine, Yea I guess you are stuck with her and him until at least any mutual childrfen are out6 of the nest. I would though if at all possible MOVE and/or get another job if possibnle so you dont’ have to live right on TOP of them. I know there are kids to consider and schools and all that, but do your berst to acquire a new circle4 of friends and clubs you attend, don’t run in the same area or at the same time.
Don’t communicate with them through your children and if others in the familyh or5 your children try to give you messages about them or pass on information, just FIRMLY and politely say “John and I don’t wish to speak about Frank and Joan.: Then change the subject and if they say “Well, I was just trying t6o tell you….” REPEAT it again@!!! If that doesn’t work, then WALK OFF.
If the kids come home with “dad or mom lsaid to tell you” xyz, ” E mail Dad or Mom nicely and ASK them in the future to please communicate by e4 mail NOT THROUGH THE KIDS. tHAT YOU ARE NO LONGER GOING T6O BE “ANSWERING” THE KIDS BECAUSE MESSAGES GET TOO MIXED UP THANKS.
Telol yourf kids that you want written messages about whatever he wants to tell you or arrange with oyu so tghere is no mistake and they don’t miss a ball game or something.
After a few times of you refusing to “answer” them they will get him to e mail you. Without access to give you trouble, or float tales around it may lower some of your stress levels.
Keep ytour chins up. I amm glad you and the other husband found happiness, and each shed 150-200 pounds of ugly rancid FAT!
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