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Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild”

Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 7:11pm • My Weblog

By Ox Drover

Something occurred recently that set my mind to thinking. My best friend who lives another state came to visit me for a couple of weeks. This friend has known me about 30 years, so has known both of my biological sons, including the psychopathic one, since they were kids. She has “been there” for me through all the trauma, the disappointments and the pain. She was there for me when my husband died in the aircraft crash and my adopted son was burned. She was there for me and for my oldest son when his wife tried to kill him. So she has seen many of the psychopaths I have dealt with “up close and personal” and she has seen the toxic enabling my mother has done and is doing with my P-son by sending him money, even after he tried to have me killed. There is no one on earth who can reasonably “validate” that I have been the victim of multiple psychopaths during my life than she can.

I remember when I went to the EMDR (rapid eye movement therapist). During my first intake interview, which lasted over two hours, as I detailed the large numbers of psychopaths who were conspiring to have me killed and had run me out of my home in fear of my life, the man very politely listened and showed interest in my tale of woe, which could almost be labeled “Pitiful Pauline’s Terrible Trials,” to use an old serial movie title. At the end of the session, he was careful to word his request, since I had told him I was a retired medical and mental health professional, that I “bring in someone to confirm” my stories, which to him, I don’t doubt, sounded like the ramblings of a “paranoid delusional schizophrenic.” When he made this request, in his very diplomatic manner, I actually threw back my head and laughed and said, “Yep, I do sound like a paranoid schizophrenic, I know, but I will be glad to bring in both witnesses and documentation to verify my stories.” Which, the next visit, I brought in court documents and rap sheets and mug shots, newspaper clippings, and my adopted son to verify that I wasn’t just “paranoid,” that there were indeed a conspiracy of psychopaths “out to get me.”

My own tall tales

Because I have lived a life that is pretty much out of the norm for a kid who grew up in the boondocks of rural Arkansas, and in some instances, done some things that are sort of along the lines of an “Indiana Jones” character, I learned pretty early in my young adult life that many people will disbelieve you if you “tell exciting stories” that are too far off the “norm” of most people’s lives. They view you more in the line of someone who, like my neighbor, “Crazy Bob,” tells tales of his years in the FBI, CIA, his Congressional Medal of Honor, his 5,000 parachute jumps, and him being a Navy Seal, all the while being too dumb to know that no one has ever made 5,000 parachute jumps.

Even if “Crazy Bob’s” stories are unbelievable to most people, some of my stories are as unbelievable, of flying cargos of live animals in and out of South America in a salvaged WWII B-25 bomber, or living in the bush for months at a time, or catching thousand-pound crocodiles at night from a 25 ft. canoe in the delta of the Nile, or the crazy camel driver at the pyramids who was paid to let me ride his camel. The only differences between my unbelievable stories and “Crazy Bob’s” are that I can prove mine with photographs, newspaper articles, passport stamps, pilot’s log books and other documents as well as living witnesses who were there with me.

A man who has been my friend for about 15 years told me, “When I first met you, I thought you were some kind of ‘blow hard’ who made up these outlandish stories, it wasn’t until later, I realized that you were telling the truth.” This man is not the first, but I do hope, will be one of the last people who “hears my stories” and disbelieves because they sound “so outlandish, no one could have done all those things, or had so many psychopaths target them.”

Is every jerk a psychopath?

Even my friend of 30-plus years asked me as I was chattering on about some guy I thought to be a psychopath, “Are you starting to label everyone you know who is a jerk, a psychopath?”

This comment sort of surprised me, so I said, “No, I don’t think so, let me tell you why I think this man is a psychopath, though I didn’t realize it at the time I had a business interaction with him. First, he left his wife of 25 years while she was dying of cancer, leaving her destitute and alone, then he showed up at her funeral with his girlfriend sitting beside him, then he stole the inheritance of the daughter of a deceased friend after he had gotten himself appointed the executor, and then I added a few more incidents to his “psychopathic con-man resume.”

My friend then replied, “Yea, he does sound like a psychopath.”

Psychopaths I have known

Not too long ago I sat down and decided to make a “list of the psychopaths I have known, been related to, and/or who had hurt me/others significantly in interactions with them.” First off, of course, was my “sperm donor psychopath”, and I actually know of two men he killed. One of my maternal g-grandfathers was an abusive alcoholic. My “egg donor’s” brother, Uncle Monster, was a vicious, violent wife-beating, woman-hating man. Then there was Charles “Jackie” Walls III, who was a Boy Scout leader in our small town who was tried and convicted and sentenced to life without parole for the over 1,500 cases of child molestation that are known of. There was the covertly psychopathic teacher I had in nursing school whom I saw over and over persecute and target certain students, primarily males, for several years. Though she never targeted me, I finally became so afraid of her that in the middle of the program, I changed universities and drove 40 miles further for the last two years of my schooling just to get away from her.

I also listed covertly vicious physicians and nurses I had worked with for quite some time, directors of programs I had worked with, business partners of my husband who literally stole his business and bankrupted it, working together, and lying in depositions to the court. (One of them did, later, go to prison for conviction in a very similar scam in which they got caught, but they got away with the scam against my husband.)

All in all, when I finished the list of people that I had known closely enough to know their histories and to see some of their covertly malicious behavior targeting others or targeting businesses, I had, just off the top of my head, a list of 45 people that I knew who would have rated at least a 20, and more likely a 30, on the PCL-R. Many of these people were “respected” physicians, attorneys, Boy Scout leaders, psychological counselors, psychiatrists, surgeons, school teachers, police men, ministers, prison officials, prison guards, college presidents, businessmen, politicians, media stars, and others were “known” and convicted convicts and ex-convicts. Some few were “overt” psychopaths committing murder and other crimes of violence and not caring who knew they were “dangerous.” Others were “covert” psychopaths trying to protect their “public mask” of kind and caring people.

Of course, at the time I was working with or interacting with these people I had no idea that they were “toxic” and “dangerous,” and their public face, in “responsible” positions of college president, or minister of a church, was intact. Even when in some few cases I was actually warned that these people couldn’t be trusted, I didn’t listen to the warnings. When they began to target me and to covertly attack me (“stab me in the back” is the common vernacular) I felt the knife go in, but couldn’t for the life of me figure out why! Of course they were smiling and “playing nice” as they stabbed me, and if I “whined” about the pain I was feeling, then they “couldn’t understand” why I should be feeling and sensing that I was being attacked, of course they didn’t see any “knife in my back.”

Overt and covert

I had learned after the encounter with my sperm donor, who was an openly violent man and “proud” of his homicidal violence, to stay away from overtly dangerous people. I had taken great pains to stay away from the “low lifes” in the community, the heavy-drinking, fighting, strutting “bad boys.”

What I hadn’t learned until the last couple of years, though, is that there are probably, I estimate, six or eight “covert” psychopaths for every one or two “overtly” violent psychopaths. Though Scot Peterson and the BTK killer were actually very physically violent to their victims, they tried to present to the public this “good guy” mask to hide their psychopathic violence. These men were eventually convicted of their violent activities, just as Charles “Jackie” Walls III was convicted and his mask of “community leader and Boy Scout leader” was jerked off his face.

Not every “domestic abuser” goes to jail or makes the statistics. I don’t know what the real statistics are of overt and covert domestic violence, and I am sure that no one else knows, either, of the men/women who physically assault their spouses behind closed doors and nothing is ever known by anyone except the victim and the abuser. Many times, I think, not even the children in the family know the truth of what goes on behind “mommy’s and daddy’s bedroom door.” Unfortunately, too many of the victims take the shame of the beatings on to themselves, and “keep the family secrets” intact.

The statistical estimates of “how many psychopaths are there?” range from 1 percent to 4 percent of the general population, while about 20 percent of incarcerated felons are rated as psychopathic. While many victims may only recognize one psychopath in their lives, there are others of us who have repeatedly been targeted by them.

Crossing paths with psychopaths

Why us in particular? Possibly, we were born into a family highly populated with overt or covert psychopaths. Possibly we are adventurous and, as many psychopaths engage in high-risk or adventurous professions or past-times, we come into contact with a “pool” highly populated by psychopaths due to the adventurousness of our profession or recreational activities.

I spent time working for my sperm donor as a wildlife photographer in South and Central America, Europe, Africa and the American west, and the adventurousness of the profession attracts people who are highly involved in “risk taking” activities like self employment, film production, international travel, general aviation, and dangerous hunting activities. Therefore, it isn’t surprising to me, looking back now, that several of the men who were involved in my sperm donor’s enterprises were psychopaths.

Though my late husband was a man addicted to a “high-risk” and adventurous profession, general aviation, he was not a psychopath, but that profession brought him into contact with my sperm donor, and also many other psychopaths. Many were wealthy, famous and infamous men that, in retrospect, I consider high in narcissistic and/or psychopathic traits, Richard Nixon for one.

Identifying the psychopath

Learning to identify people with “covert” psychopathic traits in the “wild” is much more difficult than identifying “overtly dangerous” people with psychopathic traits, since most of the people who are “overtly dangerous” will swagger around “looking like a thug” and wanting to impress you with their potential for violence. It is sort of like the difference between the pit bull dog who bares his teeth and growls, versus the dog that quietly sneaks up behind you and sinks his teeth into your calf without any warning growl.

In either case, the best test of either the overt or the covert psychopath is their behavior, rather than what they say. If you observe someone do something (anything) to another person that you deem unjustified, ugly, nasty, hateful, revengeful, etc., then you should be very careful around that person and be watchful of them.

A friend of mine who was a dean of students at a prestigious college was literally sexually attacked by one of her fellow vice-presidents of that college; fortunately she was able to get away from him. Six months later, though, when he was appointed the new college president, his first act was to fire her. She hadn’t seen it coming. She was not only devastated, but was shocked and surprised. She shouldn’t have been. She had been warned that this man was a psychopath by his drunken sexual attack, but she kept her mouth shut at that time rather than “cause a stir.” Later, her silence at the time of the attack cost her her job.

The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.

Another thing that is against our being validated when we observe and “label” these instances of psychopathic behavior is the lack of validation we get from others who also know this person, but are not nearly as aware of what it “means” as we (former victims) are. They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John” or “Well, he probably didn’t mean it that way” or “Oh, just get along and play nice.”

The covert psychopath may not be physically violent at all, but instead, may only engage in emotional and mental abuse of his/her victims by demeaning and degrading them with subtle put downs. The covert psychopath may also do financial or career damage to their targets, and a covert smear campaign against a co-worker or boss can destroy a career or a reputation.

No understandable motive

Because we, many times, fail to see a “motive” that we can understand for the behavior of the covert psychopath, it makes it difficult for us (and others) to believe that “s/he would do that,” because we cannot see what s/he would gain. Unfortunately, many times the “motive” of the psychopath is the same answer as the mountain climber gave for climbing a very difficult peak, “Just because it’s there and I wanted to prove I could do it.”

It might be fairly easy, you would think, to spot the “overt bad boys” by going to a “bad part of town” or “gang turf” and looking at the guys swaggering in and out of bars or selling drugs on the street and say “that guy acts like a psychopath,” and you might even be right in your assessment, but maybe not. But you can’t be sure you are not dealing with a psychopath at a debutante ball, or a civic meeting, or a political rally, a church group, or a business meeting either, because the fact that people there are cleaner, better educated and dress nicer doesn’t make them less apt to be a psychopath.

My sperm donor used to tell the press that he was “eccentric” and “the reason he was ‘eccentric,’ instead of ‘crazy’ was because he was rich!” Unfortunately, I think in many ways he was right, as people who are in a powerful position because of fame, money or other reasons, seem to be allowed more range in the behavior that is considered “acceptable” than those of us who are not so rich or powerful. Their power over other’s lives, finances, and emotions I think is what feeds their egos and their sense of entitlement to “control” others. Those of the human race who are not high in psychopathic and narcissistic traits don’t usually consider “control over others” to be a stand-alone motive to use, abuse and manipulate other’s lives for their own joy. That being said, it is difficult for us to see this as a viable motive in others who do have the psychopathic traits.

Survival skill

Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. Whether their natural habitat is in the school room, the board room, the court room, the dining room, or the bedroom, we need to watch for the signs of deception and signs of lack of empathy, even the very subtle signs that these people have an ulterior motive in their interactions with us and/or others. We need to listen to our “guts” and our “intuition” and to validate this information ourselves, rather than doubt ourselves. Even if no one else on earth thinks that what “John is doing” is pathological, we need to have the self-awareness to watch out for ourselves if we spot a “red flag” of pathological behavior or attitude in someone.

To answer my best friend’s question again, I think I would add, “No, I am not labeling everyone who is a jerk a psychopath, but I am no longer excusing bad behavior on anyone’s part. I am keeping my eyes open for signs of people without moral compasses and I am distancing myself from them as far as I can.”

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written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •

Tilly says:

A psychopathic solicitor targeted me and seduced me into a relationship and stole my inheritance and my house and he was never caught. He had detectives, police, lawyers, psychiatrists and judges on his pay list. The detectives told me that if I didn’t move interstate immediately, with my son, the solicitor would have me killed. He had me locked up in the looney bin and then prison, for paranoid personality disorder and had me charged with extortion and stalking (for trying to get my own money back) and he got away with it. He has done it to a lot of women and still does variations on the theme. He has kids all over the place to different women. Including 6 of his own to his psychopathic wife.
Seven years later I proved my innocence in the supreme court of appeal and all charges and records were dropped. However he did not get charged or struck off as a solicitor and I did not get ANY of my money or my home back. He is STILL doing it. He is extremely powerful on the Gold Coast and his “kingdom” has extended both north and south.
When mylast psychopathic ex- boyfriend (who was a dentist), tried to have me arrested again, (one week after I was cleared of all charges), the mental health team did not believe that I could have so many psychopaths in my life. They lassoed me and “brought me in to the acute care emergency” for mental health assessment.
This time i could prove my history and i had proof and evidence of my past abuse and also I am getting some help by the (few ) detectives in Oz that are not corrupt.
However the Psychopathic dentist is still trying to have me charged ( but can’t!) . So far he has got away with $200,000 fraud from health insurance. Not to mention his tax fraud for his whole life.
I believe the statistics are far higher than mentioned above and they will increase as the family unit further disintegrates and consumerism reaches its peak.
In the meantime, it is rare for me to meet people that are NOT cluster B’s.
I used to believe that this was because I was brought up by psychopaths and my family was full of them.
Now I believe that it has happened to me because it is my job to do something about it. That is, just the ones that have been in my life and are still active in their murderous, evil ways.
Everything has finally made sense to me. But I am still surrounded by psychopaths. This is the only place (LF) that I know that exists, where there are fewer Psychopaths than victims.
And nearly all of us here were once codependent rescuers.
I agree that the nursing industry is where the largest population of hidden female psychopaths are. I think it is because of all the helpless victims available, ready to be abused.
And the gangster/cops and robbers world is obviously the place where it is expected to “bignote” about the atrocities performed by male psychopaths, legally and illegaly.
It is in the court room that I believe, it is the most lethal to find the psychopath.
Nothing compares to being legally abused after you have already been financially, physically and emotionally abused . And no-one believes you.
It really is the end of the world… until you come to lovefraud.

(Report abusive comment)

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 3:06am

sstiles54 says:

Dear Oxy,
Thank you for another eye-opening post! It is getting so difficult to find people who don’t have a hidden agenda. I know I am probably overly suspicious & paranoid, but, until I met my s, I truly did not believe that such evil existed. As it has been said by many others here, our only “crime” is to have loved someone with all our being, only to be turned inside out with pain & loss. How many of us here have suffered devastating injury, try to recoup some of what we lost, only to have the rest of the world look at us, & say, “WTF”? We are judged & christened as the “boy who cries wolf”, before we even tell our story. So many times, I wanted to scream at my lawyer or the judge, “Do you think I could make this stuff up ,you stupid b*stards!?” I totally agree with Tilly. LF is the only place in the world that is warm & safe.

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 6:04am

blueskies says:

Dear Oxy,
Great post:) Like sstiles said, its hard not to feel like your being suspicious and paranoid…but now that my eyes are open, I am hopfully better equipped to spot the red flags, and move away. I think that trusting myself, trusting my gut, will be one of the most important things i’ll ever learn to do.x

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 7:14am

Elizabeth Conley says:

Dear Oxdrover,

You’re story is one I can readily relate to. Like you, my life has been a tad on the exciting side. I rarely talk about myself, because my life story sounds like a confabulation. To my surprise, I’ve learned that many people resent those of us who’ve taken the road less traveled, even though they’re free as we are to go where the will. I’m not sure why these people are so bitter and spiteful, but I find the best way not to excite their aggression is to smile a lot, saying little or nothing.

Before I became aware of cluster B personality disorders, I went through life blithely treating all people as I would like to be treated. I did this because I had been trained to believe this was ethical, and I wanted to be good. Now I realize that the harm I was incurring when I tangled with cluster Bs was decreasing my effectiveness as a parent, wife, daughter and friend. Out of love for the people whom I owe the most to, I’m now very cautious with those to whom I owe little or nothing.

Psychopaths might be rare, but cluster B personality disorders may be as common as 1 in 10 people. Given free reign, they are wrecking balls, black holes, parasites or all 3. Treating them as we would like to be treated is excessively simplistic, and opens us and everyone we love up to great harm.

We can treat the anti-social disordered, histrionics, narcissists, and borderline personality disordered ethically, while still protecting ourselves and the ones we love.

All we have to do is be observant, and engage with them minimally if at all. I submit to you that telling other people what you observe in a cluster B simply makes you like the unfortunate little boy in the movie who claims, “I see dead people.” Even admitting we see them is a form of engagement that can harm our lives, because the vast majority of people can’t or won’t see the danger until it’s way, way too late, if ever.

You’re right:

“Detecting the covert psychopath in their “natural habit” becomes a necessary survival skill to minimize the damage that they can do to us. ”

Let’s take it one step further. Knowledge is power. Why let a cluster B know that we’ve detected their dark agenda? Don’t they generally target us with all their considerable fury once they realize they fool us? Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe.

We’re lucky. We’ve walked the road less traveled. Why shouldn’t we enjoy the benefits of our unique educations, and avoid the pitfalls of being labeled peculiar? The less angry, insecure or fearful people of the world know about us, the less harm we will incur. We can walk in peace among their discord, and sow blessings wherever we choose to go.

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 9:10am

Sigh! I’m the queen of the stoopid typos 2day.

What I meant:
Don’t they generally target us with all their considerable fury once they realize they CAN’T fool us? Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe.

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 9:12am

OxDrover says:

Thank you guys for some of the wonderful insights, and especially to Tilly for bravely sharing her trials. Telling our stories validates us, and as we grow, we finially come to the conclusions that if we have no one else who believes us, we are still able to validate ourselvers, and external validation is not so important. At first, however, when we are still so raw and emotionally bleeding that external validation is important to us, that is the point, I think, that when we need it the most, is the least available.

Tilly’s experiences are “over the top” as far as the extent that her psychopaths went to discredit her, however, according to some writings by Dr. J. Reid Meloy a woman named Pamela lived with her psychopathic husband for 20 years without any idea that he was apsychopath, and when she started to “out him” and get on to him, he murdered her.

Another example of this is Laci Peterson and her husband Scot who murdered her.

I think it is only when we learn to spot the small and seemingly “unimportant” quirks in the covert psychopath that we are able to protect ourselves better by distancing ourselves from these predators. However, as Tilly can testify and others, they can be VERY dangerous when they are confronted.
Another example

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 10:58am

‘We can walk in peace among their discord, and sow blessings wherever we choose to go.’
I love this Elizabeth..:)

I was just thinking, that its not just about spotting the red flags that ARE there waving loudly, but noticing what is missing.

I love this too:Let’s keep the power of perception for ourselves, and use it to keep ourselves and the ones we love safe. Food for thought. I have hurt myself far more than I should have by trying to ‘fight’ this stuff… reacting…

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 11:14am

Dear Blueskies,

So right you are!!!! You said a mouthful, girlie!!! “I have hurt myself far more than I should have by trying to “fight” this sutff…reacting.”

A while back I posted an article about “Why I am becoming an A.S. S.” (Assertive suvivor of Sociopaths” and I likened the intelligence of asses (donkeys) to the dumbness of horses who will HURT THEMSELVES FAR MORE than they are hurt by being attacked. A horse if he gets his foot tangled in a piece of wire will panic and tear his own leg off trying to get free, where an ass, will carefully see what is the matter, test whether he can get loose WITHOUT HURTING HIMSELF, or if necessary will stand there and call for help until a person comes and releases him from the trap he is in.

This is why I realized that I have been more like the stupid horse, who gets a pice of wire around his leg and tries desperately to get out of the trap and literally kills himself doing it, where as if he had simply NOT GONE INTO PANIC MODE could have actually come out uninjured.

Too many times the psychopaths get us in a “one down” situation before we even know we are in a trap, and then when we feel the noose tighten around us, we HANG OURSELVES WITH IT where as if we had just not gone into PANIC MODE we would not have been injuired.

The Ps USE that panic we feel against us, just like a guy with judo training uses your own motion and weight against you, so do the Ps and the other manipulators.

It is difficult to think when you are angry, afraid or stressed out, and they keeop that stress going, keep that anger stirred, and we become a worse enemy to ourselves than they ever were.

Fortunately KNOWLEDGE=POWER and we here are working together to support and teach each other, to share our experiences and the things that work for us, and the things that don’t work! My P-X-BF used to tell me “You’re such an ass!” And you know what, HE IS RIGHT, I AM AN A.S.S. (assertive survivor of a sociopath!) and I AM DAMN PROUD OF IT! Every morning when I hear the yeeehaw of Fat Ass and Hairy Ass echoing across the pasture, or walk out and see their long floppy ears or see them come running to beg their favorite treat, a slice of bread, I thank them for the lessons in life that they have taught me. And who would have thought a couple of jack asses would be such great life coaches! My best friend calls this place “THREE ASS ACRES!”

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 5:37pm

breckgirl says:

What a great post and Elizabeth your comments put words to how I feel with this gem:

And then you g on with :

Now I realize that the harm I was incurring when I tangled with cluster Bs was decreasing my effectiveness as a parent, wife, daughter and friend. Out of love for the people whom I owe the most to, I’m now very cautious with those to whom I owe little or nothing.

I am just coming to this place myself. Your advice about not letting them know I see what they really are is very helpful to me.

I have as I work through everything and try to grow and heal from the ex-bf – a liar, an addict, a malignant narcissist – who got physically violent and is obsessed with me now – as I grow and learn I see that my ex-h – the father of my children is a covert N and my parents are N’s as well. My therapist had suggested they were N’s years ago but I did not understand it or what it meant. Only now are the scales falling from my eyes.

Oxy – Thank you for the analogy of the ASS versus the horse. I am learning that observation is the best tool I have for protecting myself at this time. Observe, observe, observe others behaviour before I allow them to get close to me. Observe my reactions to their behaviour and their words. Are they trying to charm, get close too quickly, is that person assessing my vulnerability???

I’m trying not to be afraid in general but this way of living is work – at least it is now – hopefully it will become ingrained and not require as much effort in the future.

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 8:57pm

Dear Brecikgirl,

Yep, you are right, it is “work” to be aware all the time. It is more “stressful” than walking blithely through the world and thinking it is “alwlays safe.” Life is NOT a “cake walk” if we recognize the vulnerabilities we have to “attack” from various directions.

Of course, we must not live life in terror, but in CAUTION. We, I think must be AWARE of our environment and who (and what) is in it…listen to our gut instiincts and validate those instincts.

We are “socialized” to “play nice” with others and to “not make a scene” over someone else’s “minor” or snide remarks etc, but when those “snide remarks” become a pattern, we call them “put downs”—looking for the patterns in the lights and shadows allows us to SEE THE TIGER hiding in the grass, whose cover ALMOST blends in perfectly.

Psychopaths generally are like that tiger, and while their cover anD camo is almost perfect, seldom is it completely perfect, IF WE ARE OBSERVANT! But so many times, I have seen the patterns in the grass, and felt the presence of the tiger, almost felt its hot breath on my neck and then talked myself out of believing that there was REALLY a tiger in the bush….I am no longer going to talk myself out of my gut instincts any more, and I am also never going to let anyone else talk me out of it either.

Just like my GF sort of questioning me about my OBSERVATIONS that I thought the man was a P, I had valid reasons (based on his behavior) to assume he was toxic (whether or not he would have actually scored 25-30 on the PCL-R is immaterial) so I was being “judgmental” in some people’s views, but in mine, in my view, I was being cautious and observant. Once bitten, twice shy. Better to be SAFE THAN SORRY where it concerns caution.

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 9:31pm

shabbychic says:

Wonderful article! I have wondered if I’m going to end up labeling every jerk a S/P/N so this is a very timely post for me. I never understood what the red flags meant, I also treated people as I would like to be treated (as breckgirl said) so I’ll have to read this article several times so it sinks in. I want to learn my lessons well!

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 9:55pm

henry says:

I think sometimes we are quick to label jerks and bitch’s as a narcospath or a physcocreep. But hey who wants to be around a jerk or a bitch? I was offering Overwhelmed some advice on another thread, she is a newbie here and just coming to grips with the reality of who/what she is dealing with. But then it dawned on me, I really cant feel that overwhelming pain. I remember it, I understand it, I relate to what she is going through but I don’t feel it anymore. Must be like women describe labor pains and child birth. Or as NewLily was saying about that missing limb concept, it takes our minds time to catch up with reality. So I guess I survived. Has taken me well over one year to catch up with reality. I had many toxic people in mylife, my mother the biggest baddest narc of all, the reality of her hit me about 6 years ago, long before I ever new what a narc was, I just new the mother I had adored and worshipped all my life wanted me dead and I had to flee in the dark of nite with help of my son’s. Like Ox I lived in fear of her for many years, until she went into a nursing home and can no longer walk and carry a gun. Yes I have tall tales to tell, and when I used to tell them people looked at me like I was demented, so I have learned to keep the truth to myself, because so much of it is unbelievable. I dont need sympathy, and no way anyone could ever relate to my life story. But not everyone is a spath. Beside’s I think spaths know when we are targets and when we aren’t…Ox about a year ago you told me to get some back bone and pull up my big boy britches (remember?) well I think I have a wedgey….

Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 10:54pm

nottakingitanymore says:

bears repeating:

“The covert psychopaths count on people being “peace keepers” and keeping their mouths shut about observed bad behavior. They also count on “small” instances of bad behavior being over looked, even though these “minor” transgressions of “niceness” add up to a large mountain of bad behavior over the long haul.”

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 7:46am

ThornBud says:

Great article, as always, dear Oxy!
What i would like to mark is that who had misfortune to get involved with P/D/Ns, also has a moral obligation and duty to educate ppl how to spot the fart even if it is not noisy nor smelly (sorry for being rude) .
Especially parents (mostly mothers) should NOT hide the truth from children, in the name or for the sake of some ilusonal “mental health” of a child, keeping him believe his/her Daddy loves him.
What is hard is that many women are ashamed (as if it is their fault) of humiliation/abuse and tend to hide it in public, thinking they are less worthy, assuming OWN pieace of guilt .
Like u, Oxy, i was in touch with many pers. disorded ppl, starting from my both parents. I was taught, as u was, to pretend it never hapened and forget and forgive.
I am still not ready to post my whole story, just this time i would like to point on one:
I never hided anything from my child and never made things look diferent than they really are. When first time she went out with boyfriend, i taught her never to deny or decline to see red flags.
Relation seemed nice, boy seemed nice, everything was OK..the only problem was that she gos some starnge alergy (she was 15) and breath obstructions, until once she nearly died. Than she told me boy slaped her, and she broke relation and stoped to meet him.
She told me: When FIRST time he was rough and he pushed me so i fell down, i thought its my fault, i sliped and lost my equilibrium..he loves me so much, he would never do that to me intentionally. When few days after he slapped me, i remembered your words: ” If anyone ever treat u bad or hurt u, IT IS FIRST TIME and just a BEGINING, and it will never stop, as long as u dont go NC”
So, telling her whats going on, explaning, teaching her, warning her about red flags and terrible mistake of denial to see red flags, spared her of great pain.
We have to teach our close ones, especially young ones, how to spot P/S/Ns, for they are as dangerous as drugs – close ur eyes at just one or two red flags…and u are IN THE PLAY, u start to be addictive, as drug users can become adictive after even 1-2 “highs”.

Thank u Oxy
Blessings to all

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 8:11am

momcooks says:

I have been reading these posts for a while and have wanted to post my story but it has taken me a while to get up the nerve. Here goes.

I met my husband 25 years ago and fell for him immediately even though there was something that bothered me about him. He was charming etc, but not nice. We did not see each other for a few years then he got in touch and poured on the charm again and acted like he was doing me a favor by being with me.

Two years ago I had finally had enough I had been thinking about leaving for years but did know how to go about it. I had five children and was a stay at home mom. I love my children dearly and wanted to protect them. Everytime I got pregnant ( birth control did not work for me) he would tell me how he could not handle it and tell me to have an abortion. I refused so therefore was punished the first time he had gone back to Ireland “to go to school” right before I found out , he did not come back until my son was 6 months old. He never once sent a penny, instead it was my problem. I made the biggest mistake of my life when I allowed him back in my life so that my son could have a father. At least I got 4 other children out of it.

I had never heard of sociopaths really until my then attorney asked me if my husband was one and I said “NO” I then went home and looked it up online and got sick to my stomach. It described him perfectly and I wasn’t crazy. It also scared the crap out of me. Especially the fact as to how they can manipulate the court system. All of my fears have come true.
I knew I would have to fight for money as he had over the years put everything in his name. Always had a good reason. Needed a new account for business and would get my name on there soon, yeah right. He started on my oldest son a year or so before I filed ( I think he knew it was coming but did not think I had the nerve) He told him that he did not have to listen to me etc. Then when I filed for divorce ( I had to live in the same house for 6 months as he would not leave) He started with both boys telling them they had to help him get “her” because she was ruining the family. A family he never had any time for. Things escalated and I had to get a PFA against him and even against my oldest who was 15 and hitting me. The day I did that he went to school and took my two boys. I have been fighting ever since. They live only 3 miles away and he has worked his majic on them. I even have a Psychologist who is testifying in court that they are suffering from severe Parental Alientation syndrome. As usual my husband says I brought it on myself. My custody case is in a few weeks. It has been going on for two years , we go to court and it gets put off again again. That is just for the custody, the divorce is a whole different story as is child support. He is self employed and does business out of the country so he is hiding money. and says he is destitute.

I am at the end of my rope, there are days I do not think I have it in me to keep fighting but I have my three girls with me and need to protect them. He is actually fighting for full custody of all five. My sons seem to be lost to me. Especially my oldest ( who I was so close to) My younger son needs me so much but is so afraid of being rejected by his father. He saw what happened to his sister when she said she would not take sides.

I am off now as it is tough writing this

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 8:20am

duped says:

While it is unfortunate there are so many evil people out there, it’s also important to note there are also sick people, in varying degrees. My point isn’t to feel sorry for or enable those who are sick while rejecting Psychopaths, Sociopaths and Narcissists.

My point is that, in order to be healthy and, at a minimum, emotionally safe, it’s important to reduce exposure to and heavy relational investment in anyone who sets off unhealthy radar. This can include individuals with other, less violent but harmful non-the-less, personality disorders.

Even a Codependent can manipulate, using kindness and helpfulness, to control the object of their affection. This is also someone who, while not overtly dangerous or negatively affecting, is not ready to participate in a mutually respectful relationship.

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 8:32am

“is not ready to participate in a mutually respectful relationship.”

This is a really good point. It doesn’t really matter why a person isn’t ready to enjoy an adult relationship with other adults. No matter what, we have a right to disengage, firmly but gently, and look for the kind of relationships that are mutually beneficial.

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 12:12pm

Dear Momcooks,

I am so sorry that you went through all of this for so long and are still engaged in the battle. I am glad, however, that you landed here at LoveFraud, this is a healing place where you can tell your story and be validated—we have been through the fire as well with our own psychopaths and do understand some of what you have been through.

KNOWLEDGE=POWER so I suggest that you hang around and read as many of the old archived articles as you can, there are hundreds of them but they are usually short reads and have so much WISDOM and information in them. Feel free to post any time you wish, t6his is a very caring and supportive group of people here. Again, Welcome! God bless.

Tuesday, 14 July 2009 @ 12:20pm

momcooks, that is tough to write about, I hope it helps a little bit to know we are thinking of you, I will say a prayer for you, I hope you will keep writing & reading, it helps. I pray for a good outcome for you, you sound like such a loveable mom!

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 12:25am

amanwhocares says:

Among those of the female gender there are the coy-flamboyant ones who come on quite sexually. Often they are incapable of getting keeping a job. they will have something of a criminal his/herstory. They will collect children in order to get monetary child support. They will have fetishes like a huge shoe collection or an ocean of clothes, all from the priciest stores, clothes which they never wear. They lie and sit at home all day talking on the phone incapable of doing almost everything one might think constitutes mutuality and participation.
2.Among men, there was one at my office who claimed the quietest cubbyhole but one near the boss. He had all the appropriate photos of his dogs, Yes big dogs Shepherds and Rottweilers, his children. He of course carried the Bible and even went to a church. He did all kinds of things to ‘look good’ but seldom ever knew anything about the job. He could not use well the computer nor write letters. He was a back stabber and stole others ideas. If it weren’t for his having a government job he probably would have failed to be able to work effectively for another company.
3.In the ‘hood, there are men who sort of lurk in the shadows. They will chime in when someone is getting pillaged by another. It becomes a cruel game for them to see that person get persecuted. They keep to themselves a lot and water the pastor’s lawn.
4.The Rev is like a sort of refuge for them and you had better not talk against the Rev. While the Rev himself is a criminal who has stolen things from me to put under his air conditoners. Rev bellers at his wife when they cut the grass and his wife does most of the work. I wonder if the Rev know what his flock (and there are two others in the hood like this one) is doing to others aka criminal enterprise. Oh the Rev appears so gentle and gets these sociopaths to do all the cooking on “Mothers Day and all these mothers get the meal prepared for them.
5. My own father too! What a mess. Solidly in allegiance to his quite abusive mother; therefore loves to pander to women but rejects men and even especially his own and only blood son. No I don’t think him being a Leo has much to do with his voracious appetite for eating people for sport! And to think he still survives being over eighty.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 8:55am

lostingrief says:

S/P ALERT!!!
tonite on ABC on the PrimeCrime show … 10 p.m. Eastern
a MAJOR sociopath is being interviewed … as well as his victims.
he was tried twice for raping these women by drugging them and TWICE the jury acquitted him, even though he had many identities and passed himself off as: an astronaut, a CIA agent … you know the drill.
probably a must watch event.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 10:36am

Rosa says:

LostinGrief:

Your timing is AMAZING!

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 11:07am

Dear Amanwhocares,

Thank you for your post, it sounds like you are around a “covey” of psychopaths, and oh, yes, they can present as so “holy”—-

I suggest that you read the book called “Snakes in Suits” by two oof the top researchers in psychopasths in the work place, Drs. Paul Babiak and Robert Hare. It describes in greater detail the man in the cubical with the Bible and how they operate in companies and groups. It will “curl your hair” and make it “stand on end” at hhow you see these people described and then look kback at people you have known in the work place that have acted just like that.

The more we know about these people and the further away from them that we can stay, the better. Glad you are here, thanks for sharing. god bless.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 1:30pm

Dear LIG,

Thanks for the heads up! I will watch.

I have been watching Prime/Crime, 20/20, 48 hours mystery, and Dateline lately and all of these shows detail a psychopathic crime (usually a murder or such) and of course these psychopaths are in the TOP bad guys with murder, sometimes serial murders, etc. I saw one last night about a married couple who killed a girl and burned her body. They were eventually convicted and sent to prison. The man was a complete psychopath, blaming the victim of course, and I’m not sure about his wife, whether she was a victim herself (as well as a participant in the murder) with Stockholm Syndrome, she did SEEM to be genuinely sorry as she was sent off to prison for her part in the murder, but he was defiant. the judge gave him the maximum sentence.

He copped out to 2nd degree murder, but then said “I didn’t do it”—DUH! Typical P crap. the wife copped a plea too, but though it would do her NO GOOD, she did express remorse in a way that was convincing to me….so I actually lean toward her being another victim of HIM. That’s the problem though, even though if the wife was a victim of him, she participated in the murder and destruction of the body, so she gets a jail sentence as well. She is accountable for her actions, even if she was bamboozled by him.

Not only do the Ps themselves do horrible acts, they con others into helping them with their horrible acts. Or as the Bible says “Evil companions corrupt good morals” and the psychopaths dupe other people into doing things that their own moral compass would otherwise not let them do.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 1:38pm

ox:
another show to watch — unbelievably — is judge judy. i’d say that 70% of her cases have to do with some dirtbag guy sucking the life and money out of some unsuspecting girl/woman. judy almost always let’s ‘em have it! often the ‘gifts’ — usually thousands of dollars, help buying a truck, a vacation — that the a-holes claim were given to them are reimbursed by court order! so satisfying.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 2:29pm

I think many of these day-time “judge” shows are actually with psychopathic creeps—I actually can’t stomach watching much of that kind of show, thoutgh. Makes me grind my teeth. the DNA tests of “you ARE the father these 4 kids” etc.

They turn the things into a media circus but never really educate people about anything on how to avoid these creeps.

There was another one I chanced on the other night as I was flipping channels that was “cheaters” and the detectives followed a cheater, then confronted him/her with the videos and proof of their cheating. they also did a bit of follow up on the victims and how they were doing afterwards. Again, no real “education” about all this crap and waht the REAL PROBLEM is.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 3:08pm

Eternal Student says:

“They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John””

This illustrates a VERY important concept: People typically discount the standard behavior of a person, no matter how bad it is. Sociopaths COUNT on that; they know that if they’re jerks all the time, they paradoxically get away with it in a way they couldn’t do if they were only jerks sometimes, because people remember, and form their opinions based on, our ATYPICAL behaviors. They act as if everyone’s standard behavior is the same level of “goodness vs badness,” which works beautifully most of the time but is tragically wrong in the case of those who are markedly bad…. and, sadly, those of us who are markedly GOOD, which explains people’s bizarre lack of judging in your favor even when the sociopath has been awful and you’ve been a SAINT.

I don’t know how well I’ve explained this; I found it here

http://omniverse.blogspot.com/.....2524588861

so read that if you want to get the entire description.

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 7:40pm

Eternal student,

I give you an A+ for the way you described it, you did perfectly as far as I am concerned and I really think you are on to something….thanks for the link, too.

In “Snakes in suits” Babiak and hare explain some more of that kind of thing, and how SLICK the Ps are in the way they go about it, and how THICK most of us (“nice folks”) are in picking up on these subtle knives they stick into us.

Because, too, I think we have been trained to give people the benefit of the doubt, and even if we see they are not so nice, we still try to “get along” with them. Treat them like they aren’t toxic, after all “there’s good in everyone”….RIGHT?

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 8:41pm

I watched the prime time crime show tonight and the guy (serial rapist) finally after 2 trials of getting off “not guilty” was convicted and won’t be eligible for parole until 2031!!!!

He was a real slimebag, but the judge sure “got it” that he was a predator a VIOLENT predator. TOWANDA!!!! TOWANDA!!!! And after at least 21 women he raped, he is in prison for at least another 22 years—hopefully forever!

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 10:03pm

witsend says:

Oxy,
I watched it to…What a scumbag that guy was. The thing is you could also see some of the fleeting moments in the program where you could see how he could use his “charm” to lure the women with his lies.

Ahhh but that arrogant smile. That, and when he actally spoke to the interviewer. Did you note how his face kind of distorted when he got caught up in his story and evaded the questions?

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 10:24pm

Dear Wits,

I also noticed a SLIGHT SMILE when he would evade a question, and when he refused to say if he had told people he was a doctor, even refused to answer if he WAS a doctor…”on legal adivce” LOL

When the interviewer asked him who he WAS, he was stumped a minute and then said “I’m the guy that all these women wanted to hang out with” and then went on to say how charming, CARING and kind he was. YUK!!

When he was convicted, I think he was shocked…then at the sentencing, when he became “humble,” and said “I’m sorry” I thought I would throw up. He never admitted he “raped” any one, in fact, like of like Bill Clinton, he said “I want you to understand I did NOT rape anyone.”

The stories of the first 20 women (that are known about) who didn’t go to the police, and some who even kept on going out with him, and the one who got engaged to him when he threatened her—it is soooo much like so many people here on LF. We know we have been conned, abused, used, and we still don’t want to admit it to ourselves and just keep hoping to “fix” the relationship, or stay on in fear.

What blew me away though was that so many of them were still “looking for love” on the INTERNET….where most of them met this jerk in teh first place—!!!!! DUH!!!! Hel–lllll–000000!!!!

When the interviewer asked him if his profile was a lie, he immediately said, “well theirs was too”—so p-ish. whew!

Well, if being date raped doesn’t get these ladies (smart ones too!!!) to quit internet dating I’m not sure waht can, maybe they need to hand out LF cards with the URL on it at the end of rape tirals!

Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 10:45pm

PInow says:

Oxy,
I met some really nice people on the Internet and I met both of my Ps in person through “common interests”. In defense of internet dating, I have to say that many of my friends are happily married to the “geeks” they met on dating sites and some have multiple kids…

The world is changing. Dating at a work place is not allowed in many places. Bars and Clubs are not for everyone…

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:57am

BTW, Oxy, Thank you for your post. My friends and I have a game now, it’s called “Can you spot a psychopath?” Those that are closer to me have heard enough about them that they are fully prepared to identify them and it makes for an awesome educational pastime. Thanks for bringing it home

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:11am

Eternal student, thats a thought provoking post. I can remember countless occasions over my life time where people have consistantly behaved in an unacceptable way and I have heard stuff like ‘that’s just …..’ or ’she never really HURT anyone’ or ‘boys will be boys’.I realise now that this atttitude in people is the P/S ‘bread and butter’. I dont know wether it is a consious thing with them but it is how they are able to operate in our society. On the other hand if someone who is consistently nice, suddenly makes a bad move, it is never forgotton:(

There was a couple I knew, and the male was a complete A/H, she was a mouse, he was physically abusive, put her in hospital 3 times, a consistant bully amongst his set of friends, drug dealer, partly responsible for the death of a student through an OD, dabbled in pimping, weed farming for years and years, there was even an accusation of drugging and rape at a party; he once basically tried to put the fear of god in his GF by driving at 100 miles an hour up the motorway, punching her in the face and saying he was going to kill them both. in her struggle to escape she kicked forward and the windscreen cracked… what is the recollection of this terrible event by the circle of ‘friends’… that this man is violent and dangerous? No. that the crazy girl smashed up his precious car.

Are we giving people the benefit of the doubt? Or are we in denial, are we too scared to speak up for fear of upsetting the status quo?

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:15am

Eternal student : Great link. Fascinating stuff. Bookmarked!x

Oxy and witsend, can I access this show on the interweb?:)x

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 3:21am

Oxy and Pinow. Re: Internet dating…
I met a really wonderful feller on an internet dating site, we are still friends. I also spoke to someone at my recent foray into the world of nice friends, who had set up an internet date and was excited about it, he was a thoroghly nice feller too, a kind good mannered professional the type of man most of us WOULD like to meet.I have also heard tales of people meeting on these places and having wonderful lives together… BUT it is just not something I would EVER do again. I cant remember the name of the thread on here about internet predators, but for me the risk of coming up against a creep on line and being ‘blindsided’ is far greater for me than a face to face meeting. It is so much easier to create a false impression of yourself when you are hiding behind a computor screen. My S/P is an internet predator too, he gives the impression of a hard working beaten down single father (he has his kids at the weekend and barely copes with that) which is a real hook for many women… for ME it is just too risky. I need to look into the eyes and get a feel for a person BEFORE I begin with the intamacies that internet encounters somehow seem to facilitate way too easily. Lesson Learnt!

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 3:46am

“When you’re talking to someone face-to-face, most of the true meaning of the conversation comes from nonverbal cues—tone of voice, facial expressions and body language. How much do you depend on these nonverbal cues? Anthropologist Ray Birdwhistell estimated that 65% of human communication is nonverbal; linguist Deborah Tannen estimates that up to 90% of meaning comes from nonverbal cues.

That means when you communicate via e-mail or the Internet, 65% to 90% of the meaning is lost.

You can’t see what the other person looks like, hear the tone of voice, watch gestures and posture. So what do you do? Most people tend to fill in the gaps by assuming the message means what they want it to mean.

At the very least, the lack of nonverbal cues in e-mail and Internet communication can lead to misunderstandings. When one person’s intention is to manipulate another, this critical lack of information can lead to disaster.”

This is what Donna says on the main part of the web site. http://www.lovefraud.com/04_in.....tists.html

this information / advice is to be seriously taken on board and kept in mind as far as I am concerned.:)x It also is relevant to problems between well intentioned people when communicating electronically, meaning can be lost misconstrued.

I guess MEETING on a date site is okay, but if the relationship continues it shouldnt stay in cyberspace for too long.

(if I am reading from the Ministry of the Bleedin’ Obvious manual, someone feel free to skillet me:)xx

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 6:44am

blueskies,
I am not sure but I bet you can see it on the internet. Most of these shows are available to see that way now days. I believe it was on ABC. The scumbag claimed to be a doctor, and an astronot, and I think he even claimed to be a CIA agent to the one girl he was engaged to. As you can guess he wasn’t any of these things. In fact he was a nursing school DROP OUT!
Try and catch it if you can, and if you do hang in there till the end as the interview with him at the end is a MUST see. His arrogance is unbelievable!!!

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:41am

Thanks Witsend I shall check it out:)x

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:45am

I dated my P XBF for 4 months before I started to see his mask fall…and I had KNOWN HIM somewhat for about 10 years before I istarted dating him. He was part of my living history group and “univerally held” as a “nice guy”—but as the relationship went on, I found out from others who knew him better than I did, that he had been married for 32 years and cheated on her the whole time, that he had a “harem” of women that he had had intermittent affairs with for as long as 9 years during his marriage. He was so angry at one of these women who had finally stopped her affair with him, and gotten into another relationship and when his wife caught him and threw him out, this woman refused to toss her BF and take back the P….so he burned her house!!!! WHILE HE WAS DATING ME!!!!

It took me another 4 months to realize what was happening and that I had to kick him to the curb! Kicking him to the curb and admitting I had been conned BROKE MY HEART!

Knowing someone, their family, and other friends does help with getting information and seeing the truth of what a person is. Internet and long distance relationships don’t give you as much information and you tend to take them at what they SAY without being able to SEE and KNOW what they DO.

SEEING RED FLAGS is only possible if you have enough contact with this person and OTHERS in their lives, family, long time friends and associates….even then, you may not see them all.

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:31pm

You are right:) My ex S/P was the best friend of MY good old friend for 18 years. I think you only really know when you KNOW… sadly. I really have a problem with trying to say that my eyes are more open now without sounding cocky here!:)xx These things happen to the strongest of people (which I am not!)…but the internet gives the arse-holes a head start:) So I am not doing that:)x

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:56pm

Escapee says:

Oxy/Blueskies

I share your reluctance! The internet is an absolute gift to the half-humans. They seem to find me without my making it even easier for them! Having said this, now I am learning more about ‘red flags’ etc, I am definitely inviting less ‘crap’ into my life – I have stopped tolerating peoples’ rudeness in shops etc – I actually said to someone the other day ‘YOU’RE VERY RUDE!’ and flounced off, instead of my usual scuttling away when someone has behaved badly towards me and ’seething’ for days! Pathetic isn’t it? That I had been SO introverted that I’d lost sight of the fact that I have a ‘choice’ to point out my displeasure

Thanks all.

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:06pm

I share your outrage at rude clerks, etc. A couple of years ago before I iwas NC with my egg donor, she and I were in line at a fast food place (very small one) and I noticed the food handler go into the bathroom and quickly exit the bathroom, WIPING HER WET HANDS AS SHE EMERGED on the back of her blue jeans, then reaching bare handed to pick up a hamburger patty.

My egg donor and I were about 1 person behind in line, and I stated very clearly, “Let’s get out of here! Did you see that woman wipe her hands on her arse and then pick up that man’s hamburger patty!?” My egg donor immediately went into “embarassed mode” at my public outburst, and went “Shhhhhhh” toward me for “making a scene” in public.

As I “exited stage right” all of the people in the line behind us followed as if on cue. When we got into the car, my egg donor gave me a long lecture about making a scene in public, but I felt then and feel now, that my behavior was justified.

That was one of my RARE steps outside of my egg donor’s “what would the neighbors think?” line of thinking. At that particular moment, i was more in my “infection control” mode of my nurse-personna. (Which fortunately was sometimes out of my egg donor’s control)

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:33pm

banana says:

“Or as the Bible says “Evil companions corrupt good morals” and the psychopaths dupe other people into doing things that their own moral compass would otherwise not let them do.”

My P added in his cross-motion in response to his sex addiction, which I did not know about until the AFTER the AFFAIR that I used “toys” in the bedroom…I only did this because of the above and I always felt so awful, convicted, like I was being driven away from God.

This was SO infuriating for me especially because…what did our bedroom practices have to do with what he hid from me for years?!!!! anyway.
I did not know he watched porn at all, and he stated: “frequently” or masturbated at all and he stated 3 times daily!!!!!

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:39pm

Dear Banana,

It sounds to me as if he is trying to smear you (and embarass you) to make his own perversions and sex addictions look like your fault, or that you participated in “perverted” things.

What a couple does by consent in their bedroom is to me none of anyone else’s busienss as long as it is 100% BY CONSENT on both parties. For him to even bring up what he and YOU did, is a blatant attempt to me to embarass and make you look perverted, when HE is the perverted party.

As far as him mastrabating, again, how often he does this, as long as it is not in a public place is in my opinion NO ONE else’s business, though in several books I have read written by “experts” (with PhDs) a person who does it this many times per day and/or in “inappropriate places” might have some sex addiction problems…but again, if he is not harming anyone or doing it in public, who or what does it hurt?

Sex once a month is enough for some people and daily sex not enough for others—different people have different desires and needs—to me, however, to be in a “committed” relationship (and/or marriage) and to “cheat” and lie and have affairs (and therefore expose your partner to possible diseases unknown to them) is the CRIME here. The perversion here.

Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 9:05pm

Yesterday a neighbor asked me if my daughter would babysit her boyfriend’s 7 YO on a regular basis. I felt an immediate surge of unease. I hemmed and hawed. I didn’t know why the answer was no, but I knew it wasn’t happening on my watch.

Having had over 24 hours to analyze my emotions, I now know why I felt as I did. In a nutshell, I think there’s subtle evidence to suggest the woman’s boyfriend is keeping his daughter from her mother out of capricious cruelty, and using my neighbor as a support base for his sociopathic behavior.

The evidence is subtle, and I could be wrong:

1. My neighbor has a history of bad taste in men.
2. The relationship started recently and got serious very quick. He’s always over there. For all I now he’s moved in.
3. Now his daughter’s child care is his girlfriend’s (my neighbor’s) problem.
4. My neighbor’s teenage daughter feels uncomfortable in her own home. (But she thinks Mom’s boyfriend is a nice guy.)
5. He claims his wife/daughter’s mother is a drug addict and unfit mother.
6. If other people don’t solve his child care problems, the child will have to be in the custody of her “awful” mother.

This situation is too similar to what I’ve seen from sociopathic parents in the past. I don’t think this guy is on the level.

Of course, I’m not going to tell my neighbor what I think. She’d be furious.

Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:01pm

Dear EC,

It sounds to me that your “intuitiion” is seeing things pretty clearly, so I would LISTEN to myself.

Seeing this kind of thing BEFORE it becomes a big problem is the thing that we all need to do….because it isn’t just seeing the P-tendencies in “lovers” or “business” partners but in the everyday neighborhod relationships like this.

GOOD JOB!!!!

Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 8:43pm

EC:
Now thats what I love to hear!! This makes my day! You just saved your daughter from being “the meat in the sandwich” of a potentially very ugly situation coming up! Guaranteed! (((HUGS))))

Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 10:20pm

Leah says:

Elizabeth,

I actually heard a somewhat similar line from my ex – that he needed to help “a friend” find a babysitter for her daughter. When I asked why he felt he needed to travel out of town to do so, he wailed about the child being left alone, implying of course that I was heartless not to care about a helpless child.

Your instincts are on target. This is just a variation on the pity play. Poor child.

Wednesday, 22 July 2009 @ 11:19pm

Hello to all my dear LF’s. I was reading and reading, so pls excuse me if i missed an article pointing at this site. Just liked it and wanted to share
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....anip.shtml

especially this one:
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....logy.shtml

In all my sorrow and pain, i was laughing while reading it, and i am sure if u haven’t read it, u’ll feel the same as i did.

Bless u all

Monday, 14 September 2009 @ 10:15am

skylar says:

that first link is PURE GOLD!
Thanks Thornbud. I’m saving that.

this article is a short review on a book about narcissism in our culture.
http://www.reviews.ctpdc.co.uk/lasch.html

Monday, 14 September 2009 @ 10:55am

Dear Oxy, i can never get enough of ur posts. Here i am coming, reading, learning, but i am afraid i am still stucked at the Anger phase, sometimes i am in the loop of cycle.
Hope i am not off the subject here with those links and i am not a spamer. Its just that i liked the stuff and thought it might be of some use to someone.

An Emotional Blackmail Testimonial Quiz :
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....ooth.shtml

Answers:
http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....-key.shtml

I am not ready to post my “case” , although all our “cases” are similar and probably one more story won’t add any value.
I am looking forwad the day i will be able, like You, to post advices about how did i heal, but it seem to be very far from where i am right now.
Hugs to all of u!

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 5:05am

Dear Thornbud,

I’m glad you found validation in the article…that’s what LF is all about, us sharing what we learn as we all STAY on the road to healing. It is very dangerous to ever get off that road. Too many times I started on the road to healing, felt better, and thought I had “arrived” and was “safe”—but I found that I was “lured off the healing road” back into the “swamp and the FOG” again with another dysfunctional or personality disordered person….much to my pain.

We must learn to spot them, “in the wild” but we must also learn that we must avoid them. I’m glad you are here ThornBud, keep on reading and keep on learning, and thanks for the links. (((hugs)))) and God Bless you.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 9:53am

muldoon. says:

I kmow I dont have to sy anything…Im sure you all can guess..I have no words aand feel worse than I have ever done, I actually wish I was dead ..I dont see any way out of this.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:07am

muldoon,
what happened? did you go back to him?
DO NOT WISH YOU WERE DEAD.
That is what he wants you to wish.
We want you alive here at LF so you can walk with us and talk with us on our road to better things.
Time and distance will give you a bigger perspective.
Please talk to us.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:42am

muldoon,
I don’t know if anyone is on right now to help you…
If I remember bits and pieces of your story you have been sick (cancer?) and you do have (younger?) children and you are in a relationship with an S/P/N? And you keep going back?
And he is abusive? Question marks are because I’m not sure if I got the situation right…

Well I don’t know what I remebered correctly but I think I got some of it.

If for NO OTHER reason leave him ONCE and FOR ALL for your children sake….

1) If you have boys, and he abuses you..THEY can very well be ABUSIVE when they grow up. VERY HIGH POSSIBILITIES HERE.

2) If you have girls, and he abuses you…THEY will end up BEING abused by their partners.

3) If you think they don’t “see” the abuse (physical or mental) you are not correct. They are AWARE of it. They can sense it in your fear.

4) AND last but not LEAST your children NEED you. PLEASE don’t wish you were dead. Be whom you were always meant to be for yourself as well as your children. Get away from him and STAY away.
If you survived cancer this means God has a plan for you!

GO TO A WOMANS SHELTER if that is your only place to go.
They WILL help you.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:54am

\Iskylar when can get headc together to put it down …will write the latest m too stressed out and head shot to explain right now..been reading here again all day…
yes witsend…that about sums it up…
This time though I am on a hideous downer and see no way out…

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 11:19am

Dear Muldoon,

YOU KNOW I will tell you the TRUTH!!! THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY OUT!!!! You CAN DO IT!!!! You MUST do it, for your kids if not for yourself. I am here if you want to chat. Love (Hugs)) Oxy

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 11:30am

muldon,
Honestly a womans shelter isn’t a bad place to go!

You will bond with other women in a similar situation and as you HEAR them tell their stories, you will be seeing the LIGHT.

You will know that they shouldn’t put up with the toxic person in their lives and pretty soon you will see the parallel in YOUR own story….And why you shouldn’t either.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 11:49am

Muldoon:)xxxxxxx How are you? been wondering whats been going on for you? Just have a cup of tea, come back, and tell us what’s the what ‘carriad’.xxx

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 12:18pm

Hey all…bluskies oxy witsend…as you guessed mi let him back..felt sorry for him, dropped the charges, and he is off again.tried reasoning against my better judgement..pointless as always…told him had enough…he is simmering now..darent call the police they are pissed off with me droping it..social services are looking in to me as to wether I am allowing the kids tom witness domestic violence..IOne of my children l;eft home three weeks go..she now with her dad, she says it peacefull and no rows!!
I feel caught between a rock and a hard place and seriosuly dont know which way to jump.
witsend…been to a refuge 11 years ago, from previous husband…was theer a year…cried when i went there and cried more when I left..met lots of cool people and know the score..

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:01pm

sorry typing sobbing and cant see.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:02pm

muldon,
Please understand the importance of WORDS v/s ACTION.

Actions speak louder than words. HE CAN SAY ANYTHING….But you have past history of his actions.

What does the words “I LOVE YOU” mean if they are followed by a blow to the face? Or a kick to the gut or a shove? They mean NOTHING.

THATS NOT LOVE.

You deserve more than that. He has beat your self esteem down as well as his physical abuse.

The police are unable to help you if you drop the charges. And they don’t understand why a woman would do this even though they see it all the time.
You still need to call them when you need them. Don’t let them judge you or intimidate you.

We can all gather round you in cyber space and try to help you, through this. But you know you have to be willing to be DONE and accept that he will NOT change.

No matter what he says. His words mean nothing.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:16pm

muldoon, get your child back!
if you don’t you will have another P to deal with. He will turn her into one.

But your first plan of action is to HARDEN YOUR HEART.
You do that by knowing the TRUTH. Read books, read LF, read, read, read, until you know the truth about what is happening. Read until you are an expert and can predict his next move even in your sleep. (for some of us, that’s the only way we could predict it before we knew the truth!)

Read the comments here on LF. Look at how we are noticing, even laughing because THEY ARE ALL THE SAME. Amazingly, preposterously, the same. You can set your clock by a P. LOL.
Really. If you read enough, just from this blog, you will no longer feel anything but pity for them. They think they are so unique, but they are little card board cutouts of each other. Nothing new, just the same old bs, same old P.

Even before I knew what a P was, I had begun to be able to predict his behavior just because there is a typical thread running through it: Lies, manipulation, charm and pityploy. CONTROL, CONTROL, CONTROL. RAGE.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

That is your first step: KNOW THE ENEMY LIKE THE BACK OF YOUR HAND. Then all success will be yours.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:25pm

Thamnks both…I do know the next move and his next response but for some reason I hope he will suprise me..Thought maybe a I kicked hm out fopr so olong before he may buck up and think he will lose us and cnange his ways…but it isnt working that way.
I know this time is for real because if I drop one morem complaimnt the social services will take my kids…so I am reluctant to take the first step..but i also know must take the step …

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:39pm

ErinBrockovich says:

Muldoon,
I was telling my oldest the other night……when all the shit hit the fan…..I knew I had to act…..all the reality came rushing at me…..
My relationship with my children was strong, I had worked hard to keep an open line of communications with them….that was one goal as a parent….their father, the S….worked hard to split us off…..wasn’t successful…THANK GOD!
SO……that said…..when the shit came back up the toilet and the house was flooding with the S’s last straw behaviors…..I HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO CHOOSE TO PROCTECT MY KIDS!
It was either choose a bad marriage and lose the respect of my children and put them through hell, or choose to protect myself and my kids……
I chose me and the kids!
Your children did not ask to be born, they did not ask to witness what you are allowing. YOU must protect them.
You are getting a glimpse of one child looking to protect herself already…….she’s disgusted and losing respect for you.
IT DOESN”T HAVE TO BE THIS WAY!
There are always ways out……your fantasy is over…..what is it you are looking for?
YOUR NOT GOING TO FIND IT WITH HIM!
It’s in YOU!!!!
You must act, you must take control of your life……you are playing with fire and getting burned…..JUST LOOK AT HOW YOU ARE FEELING!!!!
Take your sadness and turn it into action.
You deserve a peaceful life, your children deserve this….
It’s only up to you.
People/we can offer all the advice possible, but it’s all up to you what you choose to do with it!
You know the reality, quit hiding in your fantasy. HE WON”T CHANGE…….
HE WON”T CHANGE, HE WON”T CHANGE, HE WON”T CHANGE!!!!
Your doing yourself and your children more harm by allowing this horrid cycle to continue.
What are you waiting for……ACT!
WE are here, but…….ultimately……
No one can help you, you must help yourself!
XXOO

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:46pm

No Muldoon, please stop having hope. No hope. He will not change, he cannot change. Believe us here at LF, the only change that will happen to him will be on his deathbed.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:47pm

Muldoon, have you ever heard the story of the scorpion and the bear?
The bear and the scorpion are standing on the edge of a river. The bear is about to swim across but the scorpion says, “Hey, will you let me ride on your back so I can cross too? I can’t swim.”
The bear says, “heck no, you’ll sting me and then I’ll drown in the river”
But the scorpion replies, “No I wouldn’t do that, because if you drown I’ll drown too. That would not serve my purpose.”
The bear sees the logic in this and feels safe to extend his good nature to the scorpion.
Halfway across the river, the bear feels the scorpion’s sting.
“Why did you sting me?” he cries, “now we’ll both drown.”
“I know,” says the scorpion, “but I couldn’t help myself, I’m a scorpion and it’s in my nature to sting.”

So it is the same with the P. No carrot and no stick will change its nature. It is a P, a cardboard cutout of all P’s. They do what they do because they do, it’s what they do.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 1:54pm

None of us here can save you, YOU MUST SAVE YOURSELF. Even if it means that social services take your kids for a while, are your kids not better off in a foster home for a little while rather than in the middle of all this mess.

Call social services and TALK to them, tell them you are a mess and he is MEAN AS A SNAKE, TELL THE SOCIAL SERVICES YOU NEED HELP to protect your kids and your self from him. DO NOT LET PRIDE, FALSE PRIDE STAND IN YOUR WAY. Explain to your kids that you are going to be away from them for a little while but that you are doing it to protect them, do this FOR YOUR KIDS, they do NOT need to be in the middle of this ROLLER COASTER YOU ARE ON, and neither do you.

ONLY YOU CAN GET OFF THE ROLLER COASTER AND STAY OFF, and only when YOU DECIDE TO DO IT. YOU ALREADY KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT, what is BEST and you know you cannot change him, so why are you REPLAYING THE SAME BROKEN RECORD? Get REAL my friend, and I am telling you the BLUNT TRUTH, but it is out of my CARE for YOU, my care for your kids, my care for ANY WOMAN WHO IS TRAPPED in this CYCLE. Break out of it, Muldoon. YOU CAN DO IT!!!! WHATEVER IT TAKES. ((((HUGS))) AND I AM PRAYING FO RYOU. Love, oxy

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 2:37pm

I dont know how I come to be back in this position…what possesed me I mean. Three times I have thrown him out, once for 17 weeks and life was actually ok, after the initial devestation to be alone it was not half as bad a I thought. I could kick myself that I felt i had gained ny him returning…when in fact I was better off…
I have to shake the downer I am on and get my wits about me….again.
I know its gona go right off whn I say sling yiour hook…it always does and each time its worse..this time no spur of the moment..Im guna put more planning in to it than the D day landings,

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 2:47pm

Way to go MULDOON! That’s what we want to hear.

First thing, is making sure you are clear on reality. read as much as you can on the subject of narcissism. get books.
Here is another blog that explains it:
http://narcissists-suck.blogsp.....rview.html

that blog isn’t getting too much posting anymore because the author has moved on, but the info is still amazing.

2nd thing, while you are doing this remember the first rule of getting rid of a parasitic being: BE BORING, BLAND, UNEMOTIONAL AND UNINTERESTING. They can’t stand boring, that’s why they bait you with their evil manipulations, for the sheer sake of entertaining themselves at your expense. So, channel the personality of a rock. a grey rock, no sparkly, nothing. You are now a plain, gray, rock.
So get planning.

quote from another blog:
be the kind of woman, that each morning when her feet hit the floor, the devil says “Oh crap, she’s up!”

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 3:06pm

YES! You can do it!!!!! You MUST do it, or frankly, you will “die” either physically and emotionally and drag your kids down with you. I don’t blame your older child for going to live with their father, and actually I think it is probably a good thing, better for them right now at least, and I think maybe this is your WAKE UP CALL that you must protect your younger kids and yourself. You are not doing yourself or them a favor staying with this pervert! This monster.

Sweetie, yes, I am trying to lay a “guilt” trip on you about this for your kids sakes. You know how horrible your own childhood was, you have told us how your mother suffered, and you are repeating her “life story”—but you have a CHOICE NOW to change that….I KNOW YOU CAN!!!!

I too lived my life for the most part trying to “fix” the unfixable because I thought that was what we did, what we HAD to do, but it is not so, we OWE OURSELVES TO BE GOOD TO OURSELVES, and owe it to our kids to get TOXIC PEOPLE OUT OF OUR LIVES AND THEIRS TOO!

You can do it Muldoon!!! Don’t even think about taking him back without coming here, don’t feel weak, we will be here for you like an UNSEEN ARMY OF SUPPORT, IF YOU WILL JUST LET US, but we can’t support you against your will. Don’t be ashamed of making mistakes, don’/t be ashamed of taking him back other times, just RESOLVE NOT TO EVER DO IT AGAIN!!!! This is like an ADDICTION, but you can break it, you are stronger than you know!!!! and you are not alone!!! You have an ARMY of supporters behind you for your D DAY ASSAULT to FREEDOM!!! ((((hugs)))) Oxy

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 3:12pm

Muldoon. please, listent to me !

Although i said i am not ready to post my story, im gonna give u “just” a hint
I am in this hell of trying to heal more than 4 years, and after i came here to the LF, in just a month or two of reading,i managed to heal more tham in all those years. I know, my dear, that our pain always seems biger than other ppl pain, and our problems look biger, not because we are selfish, ignorant, not understanding, but because we are in our skin and we can feel our feelings more intense than anyone else. The rest of us can (and be sure we DO) imagine ur pain, but only YOU feel it.
I faced cancer 4 times in my life, last time few months ago, I KNOW THE FEELING.
When i met my N my situation was:
I lost 3 kids, mother, father, brother, i lost my career i was building 20 years, i have found myself living in country wich was in war..passing 11 (yes, ELEVEN) surgeries, my only left child was diagnosed first stage of cancer at her 13 . This is ONLY part of my struggles.
So many times i wanted to die, to be dead, even before i met my N. Than, we met, i told him everything, but it did not stop him. NO FEELINGS my dear, THEY HAVE NO FEELINGS, no empathy, no love, just desire to satisfy own needs.
Here i am now, ALIVE and willing to live. I owe it to my only child. If it was ME who suffered all my life, should she be the next??? Do i have right to leave her in pain till the end of her life? I am a mother, i want to be there when she gets marry, have baby. I wanna her to have nice life, to get nice husband, and i have no right to put a stamp on her forehead: I AM A DAUGHTER OF SUICIDAL INHERITAGE. I have no right to bargain her life more than it will be anyhow, without “my help”. I wanna be there for her if she needs me, i wanna support her and help her, i wanna make her SMILE not CRY, and she already cryied my tears, witnesing my pain and my downfall. U and me, and all of us, have to be brave and strong, to be an example of success to our children, not an example of failure.
BE STRONG !!!!! Hold ur head up and raise! Believe me, if looking from abowe, everything, including pain, looks smaller. When looking from down, it looks bigger. Stand up and fight, God never bargain us with more than we can stand, and never lead us to where he would not be to help us.
HUGGS

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 4:21pm

ThornBud, I hope muldoon has read your post, your message came straight from your heart, that is clear, what a beautiful letter to write to someone, how wonderful for your daughter to have you to love.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 9:43pm

recovering says:

Eternal Student: Thank you for sharing the following link
about why good people are often disliked and bad people often excused by others for very inapproriate behavior:

http://omniverse.blogspot.com/…..2524588861

I found the above article extremely insightful and have very much appreciated the many posts here from Lovefraud members whose insights and wisdom address dealing with difficult life circumstances and extremely unethical people.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:23pm

recovering, your link didn’t work for me.
Anyone else?

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:48pm

Thornbud, you are amazing to have overcome so much.
There is hope for humanity and you have just rekindled mine.
It was dead but now I feel a twinge of life in it.

I know some others here, at LF, have had cancer. I think it is the inevitable result of too much P-behavior in your life. I worry that I will not escape cancer.

Interestingly, my cats seem to offer instant, though temporary, stress relief. My love for them is so overwhelming that just looking at them makes me stop feeling bad for a moment. I have always loved cats but I have 5 because my P kept bringing them home to me. He thought that by having so many cats I would be stuck in that house unable to escape him – where could I go with 5 cats? He knew I love cats too much to ever leave them. But I did leave him and took all 5 of them with me. LOL.

Unwittingly, he provided me with comfort instead of chains. LOL.

Wednesday, 16 September 2009 @ 10:57pm

skylar when my X moved in with me he left his cats to fend for themselves. I insisted he must go get the five cat’s as they would starve.. well five cats soon became 15 and i was over run with cats, guess who got the cats when he left me for Mr. New – yep me and I am not fond of cats, but I got em spayed and neutered and found them new homes..and there are still ooddles of kittens here and there…and yes Thornbird your post makes me realize what a fortunate man I am and appreciate my health and life even more tonite – thanks for sharing that inspiring post

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 12:39am

Thanks to all of u who was inspired by my post and thanks God it made an impact on someone.
What i believe is that it is inevitable to lose our health in such relation with N/P/S because thanks to them, our immune system is weakened. I imagine it as some army of deffence, ready to deffend our body, mind, soul. Being with those monsters engages all the soldiers of that army to deffend our sanity, mind and spirit, our soul and heart, so our body is left without deffence, unprotected and opened to deseases.
Oxy will explain it better than me (lack of knowing English is big obstacle to me) but it is well known that positive attitude and good spirit are crucial in healing process from any desease, important as medications are.
Some scientific researches proved that more than 90 % ppl who was trying suicide felt regret in last moment (unfortunatelly, too late).
Taking N/S/P back and breaking NC equals suicide, and we always regret after doing it. So, we have to be strong enough to help our little soldiers in battle to deffend our health, physical and mental. Together we are stronger!
It is not a phrase that our health is most important, and unfortunatelly, only those who hv lost a health know that! Also, our health is composed from mental and physical part, and it is impacted by both. There is one old Latin proverb: Mens sana in corpore sano (pls take a look at: http://www.answers.com/topic/m.....pore-sano) , telling that there must be balance between those two parts.
Letting them to break us, we are allowing our N/P/S ruin our health, and we have to ask ourselves: Who on this planet is worth of it ???? We are giving them much too much credits !

Huggs to all

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 1:39am

Skylar, this is the link Recovering tried to post:

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 3:13am

Dear ThornBud,

Your post was wonderful! From the heart and mind of someone who has wisdom and grace. I too hope that Muldoon read it and took it to her heart. She has been on a “roller coaster” of emotions for many months now.

I think many of us have been on that same wild ride, up and down, circling around and back again. doubts and fears our seat-mates.

The stress we have from those doubts and fears do make our health and immune systems go down and it is important that we decrease our stress. Medical research has long proven and reproven that stress can actually kill animals and make them subject to diseases. My own health hit the bottom during all of the worst of my chaos with the psychopaths and I repeatedly was subject to dangerous infections.

I work hard at keeping my stress level down and focusing on taking care of myself physically and emotionally and being peaceful and calm. Also, recognizing when I am being stressed out and taking steps to decrease it by avoiding stressful situations and people.

Muldoon, I hope you are reading. ThornBud’s advice is good!!! Let us know how you are!!!

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 11:09am

Twice Betrayed says:

Oxy:
“dumbness of horses who will HURT THEMSELVES FAR MORE than they are hurt by being attacked. A horse if he gets his foot tangled in a piece of wire will panic and tear his own leg off trying to get free”

While this is true of most all horses…as a horse owner…I’ve owned and raised horses that did not panic in these situations but assessed what could be done and if they could get out safely w/o panicking. I’ve owned one that rolled by a fence [not his usual territory] and the wire was hidden by the ground brush. His leg was caught and he did not panic. I saw it and told him….’easy- till I get to you.’..it was across several acres. He waited patiently till I got there…remained still -letting me cut the wire and free him completely before he calmly stood up when I said…ok, boy, you are free. So….maybe we need to be like these wise horses….sure we got our leg caught but we remained together until we could get ourselves free-many times with the help of someone that cared….:)

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 8:56pm

Dear Twice,

I have also owned a horse that did not panic when tangled, even if I was not there, she was bad a bout pawing at web wire and would get her shoe hung, and stand for hours and neigh until someone came, but most of them will panic, even the most gentle ones. Because they are prey animals it is a natural instinct.

Asses, though prey animals are much smarter about being tangled, and also do NOT trust their safety to OTHERS and decide for themselves what will hurt them or not. In fact, because they are so much less likely to hurt themselves, and/or you, at my age I have given up riding horses and stick to riding the mammoth asses. If an ass spooks at something they will only run a short ways then stop and reassess the situation where a horse would keep blindly running. I own a really good horse, but they are not nearly as dependable (or smooth riding) as the asses are. I leave the horses to the YOUNGER folks and I’ll let Fat and Hairy take care of my old bones! LOL

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 9:23pm

justabouthealed says:

Muldoon….

I gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which I must stop and look fear in the face… I say to myself, I’ve lived through this and can take the next thing that comes along… We must do the things we think we cannot do.

~Eleanor Roosevelt~

PRESS CHARGES. Can you reinstate them?

Thursday, 17 September 2009 @ 10:18pm

Oxy:
I agree about long ears. I love them also! I have many friends with long ears, have ridden them, carted with them and raced with them. I really enjoy them too!
But, for me, nothing can ever match the spirit of the horse. ‘The Sublime Equine’. I wrote a poem about horses with this title. [I am a free lance writer--I write mostly for horse orgs/horse magazines and other horse related material] I donated it to a horse loss org. I work on behalf of the wild mustangs out west to help keep their land. I know the horse is more trusting, more apt to panic and more high spirited. But, for me….that is what I love. I relate to that….and nothing makes my spirit soar more than to see a beautiful horse in action….I owned a horse that we trained to do the macarena. **My horses were my therapy to survive all I have been thru. No matter what happened I had my horses to love and they saw me thru. That is what the poem ” The Sublime Equine” is about= The human/equine bond.

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 11:03am

Yes, I know that feeling, when I was a little kid, my horse was my best friend, we roamed the woods and byroads and she was “there” for me to talk to. animal therapy of all kinds is good for the soul, and I think it was Dwight Eisenhower who said “the outside of a horse is good for the inside of a child.” I agree with that very much.

As I have aged though, and am no longer quite so easy to heal, I like the long-ears just for safety if nothing else, and the ride is so smooth and they are so much more dependable, I have decided my safety is more important than the feeling of flying across the country at full speed. It is one of the concessions I am making to old age and more brittle bones! LOL “Getting old” is difficult for me to slow down, and to be mroe realistic about what I can and should or can’t and shouldn’t do these days.

I was fortunate a while back to get a chance to purchase an exquisite high dollar highly bred quarter horse mare for a price I could afford (actually I bartered for her as it was the only way I could have afforded her) I thought at the time I would be more satisfied riding her, but I have stuck with and intend to stick with the asses, and my sons can ride the mare. If they get thrown they are more likely to heal than I am. I have enough arthritis from injuries from when I was younger. LOL

Learning to live life at a different PACE is just another part of adjusting to life as it IS not as we would like it to be, I think.

Adjusting to the face in the mirror, which is different than it was when we were younger, and seeing the body after a shower, is one of the adjustments we have to make. LOL Back when my egg donor started to ‘age” (or I started to notice it I guess) it was more a “trauma” for her to get “old” than it was for ME, but now that I ahve also had to “slow down” in some of the things I enjoy doing (no more huge gardens, now it is a few raised beds) etc. I am starting to have to arrange my own thinking about ME—the “new” me, which is a not-so-spry person any more. The “new” me who now waits for the guys to come in to move the couch instead of picking it up myself. The “new” me, who delegates the pick and shovel work to the younger geenration. Losing some of our “independence” in life I think is harder for some of us than it is for others. Realizing we will never set that “world record” we wanted to set when we were younger, realizing we will never ride the 100-mile-in-24-hours race we always intended to ride in but never found time to do. Realizing we will never win another ribbon in a Three-day-event again….

Couple that with all the OTHER changes and losses in our lives from our associations with the psychopaths and it can all be overwhelming, but I am working on it all, and trying to enjoy the things I CAN do to the extent possible. I’m finally at least realizing that I CAN live the BEST years of my life NOW and in the future, and stopping feeling that I “wasted” so many years before. I learned lessons from those “wasted” years, after all, so the person I am NOW is because of what I learned from those lessons. So I am grateful for today, for the now, for the JOY of TODAY!

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 2:32pm

Easy says:

If you thought you where alone in our encounter with the Parasites!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dmPchuXIXQ

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:05pm

Oxy: good atttitude working for you on aging and life!

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 3:36pm

kim frederick says:

Dear Oxy, thanks for your last post. My mother hit menopause at the same time Ihit puberty. I remember her telling me, getting older is a little bit sad.” Of course at the time I didn’t understand. I am in menopause myself, and find the changes in my body a little depressing. I am trying to find a way to make the best of it, however. The lines in my face kind of s–k, too. Charactor lines, I suppose. Heavy sigh.

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 4:21pm

Oh well, if you are gonna dance, you gotta pay the band……..:P

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 4:40pm

Dear Kim,

There is a book called “CRones Don’t Whine” the word “crone” is an old English word meaning “wise older woman” but it has been used with the terms “dried up old” (crone) attached to it as a slur for older women.

There is a new term a “JUICY” crone, and that is what I am striving to be. to ENJOY this third phase of my life. to celebrate it, no more periods, no more dirty diapers, no more worrying about “impressing” others, but just “letting it all hang out” and BEING ME—-the NATURAL me!

There is a peace and beauty in not being fixated on your extermal looks.

A friend of mine said one time “you should pick your lovers by their personality not their looks, because in the end, we all end up looking like YODA” ROTFLMAO and that is so true! But you know, if people “like” or “love me” because of my flawless skin or my tight butt or perky boobs, then they are not worth my worry because none of us “stay young” forever. EXTERNAL beauty fades, it is what is inside that matters.

You know, I never picked my friends by how they looked I picked them because of the inner beauty they either had (or I THOUGHT they had) and my husband was NOT “handsome” by anyone’s standards, but I thought he was because I loved him. so beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I’m coming to grips with that, and getting very okay with it. Took some time, but once you are over the hump and quit worrying about it, it’s a piece of cake!

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 7:34pm

Thanks,Oxy. I guess I’m a liitle sad about the fact that I never had a love that ’stuck” and now am wondering if anyone would even find me attractive. I don’t really know what I would do if someone did, at this point. I’m pretty isolated, but in a way that’s been good. for the first time in my life, I’m NOT engaging in relationships. Not even really looking for one, don’t know what I would do with one, Don’t trust myself to have a healthy one, don’t trust myself to recognize a good guy from a jerk…well, you get the picture.

I actally think that this is growth. But I’ve gained 20 pounds in the last two years, dont’feel attractive, isolate myself, and my self esteem is shit. How do I start to change this? It’s not healthy, but it almost feels like it is. I hope you understand what I mean.

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 9:24pm

I know what you mean Kim,
It’s not what you want, but it is an opportunity for growth, as opposed to the hell of being mesmerized and hypnotized by a P.
I’m there with ya.
It doesn’t feel healthy, it feels really sick to open your eyes and see reality. Now everything looks gray.

Knowing that there are so many liars out there is frightening, not even because I think I’ll be conned again, I don’t really think that, since I know I won’t trust anyone with my heart again. But maybe because I won’t trust again, the world just doesn’t seem as beautiful and the effort to live just doesn’t seem worth it.

I don’t even know if I should be grateful to the P for informing me of the truth, or hating him for it, because I was happy not knowing.

Kim, I would encourage you to lose the 20 lbs for your health, but I can tell you it won’t help your self esteem. I lost the 20 from stress and look pretty good, but my self-esteem is probably worse than yours – I’m sure of it. Looks are not where self esteem will be found. That’s what the P’s wanted us to think. Sure, it helps sometimes for a brief instant, if you’ve got nothing else. Like the P’s have nothing else but a veneer. What we have to find is a self-esteem that comes from mastery and accomplishment. But my bootstraps broke, I don’t feel inspired and I can’t pull myself up right now.

If someone would just point me in the right direction, maybe I wouldn’t be so confused.

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 10:32pm

Don’t forget that one reason P’s can fool so many people is because MOST people ARE good. And honest. Certainly don’t make a habit of telling lies to get control.

And while 20 lbs can make a big difference for older joints, etc., to a man who loves you for the right reason it makes no difference.

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 10:37pm

Yea, I sure do!!! It’s been difficult for me too. After my husband died 5 years ago, I felt so old and fat and ugly. It wasn’t that I had changed in how I looked from when he died to afterwards, it was how I THOUGHT OF MYSELF. When the P came along and started “courting” me, it make me feel good about myself–so I fell for his line.

After I kicked him to the curb, I felt like I was very alone, lonely and never would be happy again….my “happiness” depended on another relationship. Just thinking I would never have another one made me almost panic. I started working from there, first REALIZING how I felt, recognizing that my feelings of impending “doom” were valid feelings, but they were NOT based on fact. So I started looking at FACTS. I didn’t want to “believe” them, but they were true, so I stressed to myself the FACTS.

1) anyone can get married in a few days IF THEY WILL SET THEIR SIGHTS LOW ENOUGH—if you are willing to settle for a loser or a wino….but I’m not willing to do that.
2) being in a relationship is not what makes me OK

Etc. So on, but it was slow going for a while, then all the other chaos from my P-son and the egg donor etc. distracted me for a while, but I got back on track and started looking at myself and what makes ME OK, what makes ME happy. Working on that. I can’t say it is an easy thing, but just ACCEPTING myself for what I am, who I am, and where I am in my “life cycle” I think is the key.

The couple of dates I had a few weeks back were really cool, but I didn’t get anxious about it because putting on an “act” and trying to “impress” this guy just wasn’t the important thing any more. Worrying about “what if he doesn’t like me”? Well, if he doesn’t that’s his loss….I am who i am.

I wish I had a “formula” to give you to follow step 1-2-3 etc. it is a work in progress I think, I know it is with me. Just work on being happy with who you are now!

Friday, 18 September 2009 @ 10:40pm

Oxy,
I just feel an urge to tell u smth, which i am sure is an general for LF:
Ur posts are priceless and for sure u can be our mascot .
In my healing proces, since God took my hand and drowe me here, i hv learned alot about personality disordered ppl , but something strange happened while i was reading here, forward and backward, over again – suddenly i got AHA moment that my relation with my X and all the mess it caused are not the only reason i am coming here
I am coming here to learn and educate, IN GENERAL, sharing knowledge and life experience with wonderful, smart, STRONG PERSONALITY ppl.
Being here, reading between the lines, learning how to read Bible and discover the inner world, learning how to give and how to receive and soooooooo many other things makes me happy in all my pain. If i did not hv an experience with N/P , my life would not be enriched the way it is with being a member of this wonderful little comunity and our virtuel friendship. U, Oxy, are breathing a soul for this site, for all of us, and i just have to say: Thank u
Bless u all

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 5:59am

Thank you ThornBud, I am glad you are gaining so much from LF, and I am glad that my words encourage you. I think the hardest part of it all, (the pain from the betrayals of the psychopaths) is that we feel so ALONE in this—it is sort of like childbirth I think….it is a “do it yourself” pain, no one can take it away, but they can hold your hand while you endure it, but many times the very person we want to hold our hands is the very person who is giving us the pain, the psychopath themselves. So, it is very confusing.

When I found LF, Donna’s story was so inspiring for me, and Liane’s, Louise’s and others who wrote here including the bloggers. I’ve been here a couple of years and had been on another site for about six or eight months before that, but the flamming on the other site drove me away. This site is so calm, peaceful and the bloggers are so caring of each other, I knew I had found a place to express my pain and start to heal.

I’ve seen in the two years or so I have been here many people come and post and stay a while then move on and I am sure there are others who read and don’t post for a while (if ever). For me, staying here helps ME as much or more than it helps others I think, because as I think about an article or a post, I have to apply it to MY life as well. In many ways we are like a cyber AA group, only instead of booze it is the addictions to the fantasy of the psychopath’s love. Encouraging others is the only way I can stay “sober” and keep my feet on the path of healing.

I’m glad you are here ThornBud, I’m glad that we all have the opportunity to reach out and touch another former victim, and we can all hold hands as we learn about ourselves as well as the psychopaths. (((hugs)))) and God bless you as you grow!

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 7:38am

Ur words :Encouraging others is the only way I can stay “sober” and keep my feet on the path of healing, dear Oxy, are so true! Sometimes, while sharing and encouraging others, we are waking up and we just get that AHA moment. It was there, ready to popup, we even weren’t aware of its presence. Sharing is mighty help in many ways, on many aspects, usefull for receiver as much as for giver.
I am just affraid i will become addicted to LF
Yeah, just realized how true is that we never know what benefit we are gonna get from pain and “lost”.
Stay well and stay safe, dear, and all of LF’s
Huggs

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 8:38am

Being “addicted” to LF may be like an alcoholic becoming “addicted to AA” it sure beats the ALTERNATIVE!

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 9:16am

You know….I keep in shape-run/lift weights, eat right [want to lose weight fast and do your health a favor? Cut out all sugar/flour and watch the weight peel off], keep my skin good…do all the things necessary to stay fit and younger looking…and people tell me I look twenty years younger than I am. I did this all thru our marriage…I never let myself go…and he did badly. Still…he was never satisfied. So: I still do all this BUT this time I do it for me/my self- esteem/my health. Today is my BD and it’s a biggie…but, I bought myself a sequined dress [tad shorter too ] and I am going to the symphony with a dear friend. I don’t want/need an intimate relationship with a male…and it’s just fine. [I really don't believe in lasting faithful true love anymore on the part of the male...I am too badly burned]. I am so glad to be out of that hell that I find something good each and every day about the peace I have. NO more games/torture/cruelty ….just the quiet peace of my animals and my few close friends. And wonderful LF full of people that have been there.

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 12:44pm

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You rock!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 12:59pm

happy BD, TB!

Have a wonderful time at the symphony. I wish we could see you in the sequined dress!

You’re right about the flour and sugar. that stuff is poison. skip the cheese too if you want to lose weight.

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 1:01pm

Thank you so much for the birthday wishes!!! You are all so kind and encouraging! Thanks for being here! ((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))))

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 1:40pm

TB Happy Birthday!!

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 5:13pm

happy 29th birthday! I am glad you are going out and all dolled up! It does us good to get out and among them once in a while!!!! What a wonderful treat to yourself!

Congratulations and many many MANY MORE!!! (((HUGS))))

Saturday, 19 September 2009 @ 11:27pm

geminigirl says:

Dearest Twice Betrayed, have a wonderful Birthday, you go girl! Have a wonderful day! You are doing great, we all love you.!! Many Happy Returns. XxGem.{{{HUGS}}}PS,-
My Mum told me that when she was a very small girl, she thought it was, “Many Hapiry Turns,” and that you had to turn around over and over, till you were giddy! So have some “Hapiry Turns” for me!!

Sunday, 20 September 2009 @ 3:39am

Thanks to all you great and wonderful ladies!! Too cute: Hapiry Turns!

I will share my BD story with you all. I went to a local small store here that sells some cute things. I have a young friend that works there….sweet girl. Her name is Jenny. So sweet and kind to me. Knows what I’ve been thru. [Her manager is having the same problems with her hubby now...he has basically abandoned her. So: these ladies are super good to me. ] This young lady picked out this sequined dress and told me to wear it. I was just not secure enough to do it. You know it was about four inches above the knee. And tight fitting sequined no less. I picked out something more conservative and she said…NOPE, this is the symphony but…..it’s a Motown celebration and these ladies knew how to dress. I love all this music and I know you all do too. She said: you gotta wear this dress. I tried it on and was so nervous to wear it. Old trauma from my X slamming me age wise etc. She said: girl wear this dress and I expect pictures. I bought both outfits intending on wearing the more conservative one. But…I decided to wear the sequined one. I was so nervous. It was deep purple sequines and I had deep purple sky high pumps to wear with it. And a dressy black short jacket. I wore barely there hose [I tan my legs in a leg tanner so they are tan]. My friend said….whoa….you look great so my self esteem picked up a tad. Well, listen to this….I got to the symphony and a lady walked up to me with her teen daughter and said….”I am not being rude or crazy or anything but my daughter said: Look at that lady with the Tina Turner legs….and we just had to tell you….Girl, you rock that dress!!!!” I WAS STUNNED! Imagine that…Tina Turner legs….I almost started crying. After all this X had said to me…tearing me down, down down. I had a great time….and the music was so fun. I stepped back in time with Marvin Gaye, The Supremes, etc. I felt like Cindrella that the fairy god mother had granted a wish to….[sans Prince but hey, it's ok! :):)] Thanks, hugs and love to you all!!!!

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 12:37am

TB!!!
You have Tina Turner legs???!
you have to tell us about your exercise routine. I have starving african refuge child legs! LOL. I need to hear how to get TT legs. consider it your gift from you to us.

The exP once told me “No one will ever want you!” that was instead of “good morning”. LOL. that was when I was in my fat stage, but i was never as fat as HE was.

I’m so glad you had a great bday. wooooohooooo, TB!!!

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 12:55am

skylar: Girl: you are soooo funny!!! Thanks for the good wishes…I had fun for the first time in years and years on my BD. I had forgotten what fun was…nobody played games on my head and nobody tore me down…..I liked it!
I know….these P guys….tell us things like that…while they are wayyyyy outta shape. Just never ceases to amaze me. There my X was fat/balding and in terrible health. I guess maybe in their own eyes they still look like they did when they were young. They are after all: “Legends in their own minds.” AHAHAHAHAHA!

I do this walk/sprint. I only do it for fifteen minutes five/six days a week. I learned it from Jessica Simpson. You walk for one minute then sprint/or fast walk full out for thirty seconds. Do it for fifteen minutes daily. If someone needs to loose weight faster…do it fifteen minutes twice daily. That and I do arm exercises with ten pound weights three days a week, three sets of 10 reps. Then I do eight minutes of abs of steel three times weekly. That’s it.

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 1:57am

TB, If you’ve got it, flaunt it! I’m so glad you wore THE dress. Happy Birthday.

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 6:24am

Thanks, Kim! I am not twenty any more [as my PX hub always reminded me....well...guess what? He wasn't either, but it didn't stop him from chasing and buying 19 year olds!], but it was a lot of fun and I enjoyed myself. This is the time of the woman…we can have younger men, wear younger clothing longer, look younger easier and base our self worth on us and our values. I do like that and I intend to embrace it as much as I dare to….:):):)
Now to settle in and accept this birthday number. AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 10:44am

Stargazer says:

Happy birthday, TB!!!! You are my new hero for wearing that dress. I only wish we could see a picture. I can only imagine how fabulous you looked. You go, girl!

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 1:10pm

Stargazer: thanks so much!!!!! I stepped out a new me….and I was shaky….but hey, we gotta do the ‘new us!” LOLOLOLOL!

I have a friend whose 82 year old mother is soooooo cool. Actually, she is cooler than my friend….ahahahaha! This lady dresses sharp, works full time in her gift shop, drives for miles on the freeway at seventy [sometimes faster!]MPH to various shopping centers in high traffic areas, shops for younger clothes, goes to dances, plays, movies etc. And…wears her hair young, her fingernails long and red and embraces womanhood with full fury. She is one fun lady. She cuts jokes and says some of her boyfriends were hunks. And….get this…her 100 year old mom likes Elvis…. Bwaaahahahahaha! I asked my friend what the grandmom wanted for Christmas…and they told me this info. I went to Graceland and bought her Elvis socks, etc….and she wears them. Is this not just a hoot???? Ahahahahaha! And….get this…the gran got married again [she was a a widow] at 92!!!!!! He was 3 years older and still worked every day on his farm. I could not help it…I asked my friend what they did on the ‘honeymoon’ and we all laughed our butts off….but then we looked at each other and said: “Could it be?” Ahahahahaha!!!!!!!!
[he passed away last year…heart attack…so we will never know. ;p

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 1:41pm

Twice: aka Tina……
Whooooaaaa!
HAAAAPPPPPPPYYYYYYYYYYY BIIIIRRRRRTTTTHHHHDDDAAAAYYYY!!!!!!!!!

It’s all in the attitude girl…….YOU GO GIRL!!!!

As Dianna Ross sang…..Aint no mountain high enough…….

Happy Birthday…..you deserve the best!
XXOO
eb

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 4:32pm

EB: thanks, girl! Rock on! High five! *GIRL POWER!

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 5:46pm

audrey says:

This is my first post, but I have been reading your site for a few months after my own unpleasant brush with a garden variety psychopath (no physical violence or fraud involved). In truth I wasn’t even in a relationship with this creature, but he played best friends with me for a few months until the novelty wore off and he moved on to greener pastures. Yet, given the unsurprising intensity of the psychopatic bond, I was seized by an almost manic need to search for explanations for his inexplicable behaviour. Why would a young, smart, good looking, charming guy engage in such a never ending array of destructive and self-destructive activities? What were all his endless (and mostly pointless) lies, callousness, pathological envy, aggressive behaviours, and ill-disguised desire to hurt all about? It just didn’t make sense, until google threw back ASPD (which I know now not to be entirely accurate but it was a good starting point nevertheless) to one of my queries and the floodgates opened: I started reading books, academic articles, the popular press, your wonderful site, and anything psycho-related I could get my hands on. I just had to learn as much as I could about the subject to minimise my risk of getting in a similar situation again. Even if I can’t say that my encounter with this particular psychopath broke my heart, it nonetheless made for an extremely unpleasant experience that shot my anxiety levels through the roof as he happened to be my next door neighbour and move in my same social circle. Hard to go No Contact there. And of course, after I finished mourning the loss of this phantom friendship, I realised that he had shattered my confidence in my own judgement and, for a while, people in general. Sadness gave way to hatred.

HOWEVER. After spending a few weeks labelling every person that rubbed me the wrong way a psychopath, I realised that mine was just a knee jerk reaction to the pain and humiliation caused by my personal run-in with one of these creatures. Coming to terms with somebody else’s personality disorder was giving ME a personality disorder: paranoia. Of course there have always been unsavoury people in my life. My father is a narcissist and even though 28 years of brick wall (non)communication should have clued me in, I only put my finger on the problem when I discovered the existence of the DSM. I am well educated with a postgraduate degree and all, but through a combination of sheer luck and abundant naivety I had never before felt the need to instruct myself about topics relatively alien to me like mental illness and human evil.

Anyway, your blog and other fine reads made me realise that my best friend’s ex-boyfriend who: 1. beat her up (’but he was sooooo sorry after he realised he gave me a black eye!’) 2. stole from her (’it was only a few hundred euros… I am sure he had an emergency’) 3. abandoned his two young sons from a previous relationship (’their mother is a witch and wouldn’t let him see them!’) before 4. finally abandoning her for a richer woman willing to marry him straight away (he needed a green card) – is very likely a psychopath. And oh, when my friend dared be upset at his impromptu change of plans – actually, change of bride to be – he flew into a rage that escalated into a vicious emotional assault as she started crying. Her tears IRRITATED him. So yeah, definitely a psychopath.

But what about the other ones? The ex-school friend, teacher, co-worker, boss, date, travel mate, neighbour, friend’s boyfriend, boyfriend’s sister and anyone else in my life who has shown coldness, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, shallowness, aggression etc? Psychopaths only comprise 1% of the population, so how can I possibly have known 10-20 of them, whether directly or by proxy, over the last decade? I do meet a lot of people through my job and travels, but quite frankly there is no way that an average person (or even one with an adventurous lifestyle) can get to know 2000 people well enough to confidently make a diagnosis of psychopathy. No matter how good we are at spotting red flags and danger signs: psychopathy is an all-encompassing, all-pervasive mental make up which cannot be reduced to sporadic or selective amoral behaviours. I am pretty confident that I would not qualify as a psychopath on any accepted clinical test, even though I need excitement more than the average person, I am impulsive, can be quite manipulative (through charm), and have hurt people without feeling guilty. Does that make me a psychopath? No. According to Hare and pretty much the whole psychiatric community, we ALL, with the exclusion of a handful of saintly individuals, exhibit psychopathic traits at some point in our lives. Stress, anxiety, worry, fear, pain, need, and just the sheer impossibility to please all of the people all of the time can numb our conscience and make us act in ways that we might either regret or rationalise – yes, just like real psychopaths! – later. Even though I try my best not to hurt people’s feelings sometimes I do – and then regret it sorely. And other times I just think that the obnoxious guy who keeps hitting on me even though I am clearly uninterested in his shenanigans just deserves to be told to *uck off. I don’t care about his feelings at that point. He is spoiling my night. He is IRRITATING me – a typical psychopathic rationalisation that does not make me a psychopath.

My point is, while most of the time I feel genuinly horrified at the stories I read on your site, I have also noticed a tendency to extrapolate way too much from the behaviour of people observed from afar, for a very short time, and in only one aspect of their lives. Just to make an example (see post on 22nd of July), the boyfriend of Elizabeth Conley’s neighbour who needs babysitting for his daughter because, according to him, his ex-wife is a drug addict could certainly be a psychopath. Or he could just be the father of an unfortunate kid whose mother is indeed a drug addict. After all, why would a psychopath even bother to find someone to babysit his daughter if he could just dump her with his ex-wife? Psychopaths DON’T CARE about their children’s welfare. Sure he could have a hidden agenda. But he could equally be a concerned father. Or a decent person who is still angry at his ex-wife for having slighted him. How do we know? Shall we really suspect the existence of a psychopatic party in every relationship that doesn’t move according to our preferred timetable? People are different. And even if this guy were crazily, irrationally vindictive towards his ex-wife, he could still be perfectly able to love and treat others with respect. Slandering his ex could be an isolated incident. After all, even amongst wife beaters only 25% are psychopaths.

Now, I obviously agree that an abuser is an abuser is an abuser and we should all steer clear of them. However, failing to distinguish between real psychopaths and other mentally disordered individuals could have disastrous consequences. Psychopathy is hard wired and cannot be changed: we simply cannot install complex emotions (ie: Photoshop) on Charles Manson’s brain (ie: Commodore 64). The capacity is just not there. But we can treat and improve compulsive tendencies, poor behaviour control (where the ability to feel remorse is present), schizophrenia, depression, alcoholism and many other mental ills conducive to abusive behaviours if there is enough processing power. Lumping everyone who behaves in a way we don’t like under the psychopathic umbrella breeds complacency (because psychopaths are untreatable) and thus deprives people who could benefit from therapy of a chance to improve their lives and that of their long suffering families.

A pocket Freud diagnosis of psychopathy based on flimsy evidence and ill-informed hunches is also extremely damaging for the person who receives one. In fact, accusing someone of being a psychopath without copious proof tantamounts to slandering, which is sinisterly similar to what real psychopaths do to people THEY don’t like.

Finally, while there is no doubt that individuals with unpleasant traits represent more than 1% of the population, if we are talking about unrepentant con men (whether their frauds are financial or emotional) whose brains are evolutionarily different from ours, the number of people who are deemed such on this site seems a bit excessive. My personal opinion is that for Lovefraud to continue being a lifeboat for people who have been at loggerheads with a real predator we should try to be stricter with labels and definitions, rather than taking cheap shots at every suspected jerk that crosses our path. The risk of not doing so is ending up with another bitchy broken hearts club rather than a site that helps people come to terms with the incomprehensible behaviours of a thankfully rarer subspecies of human beings.

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 9:50pm

audrey,
thank you for posting a very reasonable and well thought out perspective. You are right about everything you say. But I’d like to add a broader perspective to yours which may explain why we at LF are so vigilent.

The fact is this personality disorder falls on a spectrum from mild to severe. The reason for this is that we are all born narcissists. The degree to which we grow away from the narcissistic thinking and behavior is what defines HOW MUCH OF A NARCISSIST WE REMAIN. And then you have also heard us mention “our inner P”. We all have the capability to harden our hearts to empathy (some more than others) while we deal with the real world of cutthrout narcissists. Stress, anger and just being tired increases the “baby behavior” in anyone.

For those of us who have lived with a P for many years and then also studied the books, our antenae are more finally tuned to a P than someone who might have encountered a P for a shorter time.

But the fact is, no one can ever know what another person is actually thinking, so based on that we can’t call anyone a narcissist because we don’t know that they have chosen to be evil. So all we can do is make a judgement call based on the selfishness of the behavior, the damage to others, and the callousness with which all pleas for mercy are recieved.

I feel that you are basing your numbers on a very old and inaccurate measurement. I think that there are more than 1%.

If you want to learn about narcissism in our culture, you can read books such as : http://www.reviews.ctpdc.co.uk/lasch.html

It is a wakeup call to the spiral of our society into the depths of narcissism. That doesn’t happen when only 1% are narcissists.

Here at LF, we are not actually trying to wake up the world, we are just trying to wake up the people who are in dangerously abusive relationships so that they will survive. Being far away, we must err on the side of caution when we advise someone to beware and be safe. Also, we are here to provide nurture and support for people in a very emotionally vulnerable situation.

After the person is safe then we advise learning, reading, investigating on their own. So that they can make their own judgements, just as you have.

I just posted elsewhere that I would love to have a non-profit that dedicates itself to educating people about every aspect of the dangers of narcissism. If we ever did that we would really need someone like you: objective, cautious and analytical.

Another wonderful woman who writes about narcissism is “Anna”. I could not do justice to her wonderful post about discerning a jerk from a narcissist, so i will just link her here.
http://narcissists-suck.blogsp.....rview.html
What she says is that the difference is between people who struggle with selfish impulses and those who EMBRACE them.
After being with a narcissist, you can tell who is embracing and who is not.

Monday, 21 September 2009 @ 11:18pm

If it smells Like poop? and tastes like poop! and feels like poop! Don’t step in it!

It is really simple, some people are chit! you can take the white trash out of the getto but you cant take the getto outa the white trash! Most people are trash!

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 1:21am

Audrey:
I appreciate your perspecitve and well written and posted opiniion.
I agree with some of your thoughts and coming from an extremely destructive long term relationship and loss of familial relationships I would not ever wish to be in this position again. I am not sure I could survive it…..with all the aspects of Sociopathic behaviors. I am fully aware of the pain involved and destruction of health.
Again, recovering our lives is an evolution…..I think we all become hyper vigilant and err on the side of paranoia at times…..The destruction is nonexplainable to someone never experiencing it.
I do think it’s wrong to label every jerk a S or any label….but it’s the ‘practice’ in recognizing them. It evolves to a more realistic view of society…..but remember every inch of our being and thoughts have been undermined by the behaviors.
It a healing process we must visit to find our ground again with the society we live in, come to grips with the dangers moving forward.
I think the stat you have of 1% is way off…..My stats are 1 in 4 persons exhibit these traits on some level……so look around now…..with that in mind and it’s very conveivable you know many many toxic persons…….a vineyard varietal….take your pick……
Does it matter what the label is……will you get involved with a Sociopath but not a psychopath? A Narcissist but not a malignant narcissist…….No….you have come close enough….you have done your homework, become aware and educated on it……you will avoid any of them at all costs I bet.
Are you going to get cozy with them…..because you can’t label them……i think not…..it’s all about recognizing the behaviors and steering clear out of self preservation and protection.
Are you suggesting that Mary Jo Buttufuoco shouldn’t label……
The thing is…..these persons nestle in the cracks of non diagnosis…..because they do not need help….it’s you, me…their faults….blame, blame, blame, con, con, con!

It’s like saying I’m not a smoker because you don’t ever see me smoke……
Or I am not a criminal because I didn’t get caught/convicted….
Are you defined as a criminal, NO! Are you not a criminal? Yes….it’s teh behaviors that make you a criminal….not the conviction.
My ex said he wasn’t a drug dealer, he was never convicted……I saw it, the kids saw it…….He WILL NEVER convince us as others who didn’t witness it, that he is not a drug dealer…..I never refer to him as a convicted drug dealer…..but he is still a drug dealer!
I will always err on the side of caution and call a spade a spade…..
I WAS MARRIED TO AN UNDIAGNOSED MALIGNANT NARCISSISTIC DRUG DEALING SOCIOPATH!

I don’t recommend we go out and start yelling sociopath on the street…..but i do think the awareness to society is imperative to curbing the behaviors……again a crack they nestle into….no one knows……people are not aware and continue to make excuses for the odd, cumulitive behaviors….

I think it boils down to protection and self preservation, becasue I don’t believe any one of the LF members have it in them to walk blindly into the arms of another sociopath or whatever you wish to call them.

We are here to support each other through the healing process, regaining life……life consists of work, child rearing, self esteem, education, divorces, dating, home purchases, losses, illnesses, advocating, custody, lonliness, news, awareness…….whatever our members are going through and how our feelings in regards to the topic du jour have been affected moving forward and how they affect each of us reading the posts…….
It’s all about the healing……and I think we are in a very effective healing and awareness site.
I’m glad you got away from bigger troubles and ‘got it’ quick.
Your a very lucky person and I hope you take your new education and awareness in to a lifetime of wonderful relationshiops.
Thanks for your contribution.
XXOO
EB

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 2:27am

Well, I am a bottom line person….I can’t see getting into some long winded philosophical debate on whether a person is a psychopath or not. [I agree with easy: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....] I’ve lived long enough and experienced enough in life to realize it’s not worth our time and it really does not achieve much in the way of knowledge or agreement. To quote Mark Twain: “I never let my schooling get in the way of my education.”

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 11:40am

easy, skylar, EB–very good posts.

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:10pm

Audrey, I can appreciate your point of view. I think sometimes we are a bit hasty in labeling others as PSN’s, it’s the,” see one behind every bush” syndrome…but under the circumstances, it’s understandable. I believe that recovery is a process, and for those of us that are just beginning our journey, it can be quite exhillarating to finally have a way of comprehending what has happened to us. It is a way to take back power and control in our lives, and just being able to NAME it feels wonderful!

I’m glad you’re here, and I’m glad you shared your concerns. I hope we’ll hear from you again.

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:16pm

I’ve posted twice that I just saw the movie “Doubt” with Meryl Streep but I just can’t stop thinking about it. And that movie really answers Audrey’s questions in so many ways.

Watching the older nun deal with the priest was amazing. She never had any DOUBT, and she expressed that it was because of EXPERIENCE. But the whole movie wasn’t about her relationship with the priest, it was also about how she treated all the children in the school. She was very strict. She allowed no nonsense because her experience had taught her that each time a child gets away with a little mischief, he becomes more mischievious. Making them think that they can NEVER get away with crap when they are very young, keeps them from going down the wrong road later in life. She was not a psychotherapist or a behavior therapist or even an animal trainer, but EXPERIENCE had taught her all she needed to know about the minds of children.

And she COULD see a narcissist coming a mile away.

It is such an interesting movie, I hope you all get a chance to rent it and watch it.

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:28pm

I’m with Twice and mark Twain, I don’t want to let my education get in the way of my learning either!

Good points Audrey, but it isn’t about “labels” as much as behavior, when we speak of someone as a “psychopath” (ASPD or Sociopath) we are saying, in effect, “S/he displayed these traits.” We are NOT making a legal “diagnosis” of this person, but an OBSERVATION of behavior.

None of us can read minds, but we do OBSERVE BEHAVIOR. and, like others have said, “if it looks like a duck….etc” but the BOTTOM LINE is that we recognize ANY manipulative or TOXIC person so we will not be caught in their webs.

Welcome, glad you are here! glad also that you did not get badly hurt over your encounter!

Tuesday, 22 September 2009 @ 12:47pm

http://www.suntimes.com/news/2.....06.article

Experts know 1 in 200 people are as pschopathic as a crazed murderer?

Maybe it’s sane to be a bit wary folks!

Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 1:30pm

GREAT LINK! I hadn’t heard about this guy but to score 37 out of 40 must be the PCL-R. The scan they did on his brain is also interesting. To say that he cannot control himself though is absolutely in my mind ridiculous!

Someone posting under the handle “lovefraud” (Donna?) made the first post and that was a good one on the comments, couple of guys got into an argument about the death penalty, but obviously the guy doesn’t want to die, as he is fighting the death penalty. I bet you can figure out my idea on pro or con dealth penalty, but at the same time, I know that innocent people have been sent to death row and then years even decades later exonerated by DNA evidence.

I’m not sure what the evidence against this guy was/is as I am not familiar with the case except this one link, but to use psychopathy as a excuse for any crime is as bad I think as the “twinkie” defense, where the guy said eating too many chemicals in too many twinkies was responsible for his criminal behavior.

In certain cases I would be in favor of public hanging, drawinig and quartering. Most of the people for which I would “vote” for that death penalty there is NO doubt that they are guilty. John Wayne Gacy for example.

Monday, 9 November 2009 @ 3:36pm

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Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild”

126 Comments to “Spotting the Covert Psychopath “In the Wild””

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