The Narcissist’s Commandments
You must not disappoint me.
You must not inconvenience me.
You must recognize all of my expectations as reasonable.
You must, at all times, accommodate me.
You must recognize my “special needs” (special in an important, not disabled, sense); and must always satisfy them.
You must be glad for my good moods, and understand and tolerate my bad, nasty ones.
You must see my anger, rage and contempt as always arising for justifiable reasons.
You must make tireless efforts to placate me when you’ve upset me.
You must appreciate that my comfort supercedes yours and everyone else’s.
You must find what interests me, interesting; and you must convey your interest.
You willingly assume responsibility for my happiness, and blame for my discontent.
You must never oppose or defy me.
You must always know what I want without my having to ask; and you must always communicate what you want without my having to ask.
You must recognize that double-standards are unacceptable, except when they’re mine (in which case they’re not double-standards, just differently applied standards).
You must stop shoving the word “reciprocity” in my face. Reciprocity means that both of us do what I want and need.
You appreciate at all times my importance and significance, or I’ll find someone who will.
You recognize that, even though we’re both “tired” at the end of the day, my fatigue is ten times more valid than yours, and so you cut me ten times more slack than I cut you.
You worry about your accountability to me, and I’ll worry about my accountability to God.
You find that everything I say makes sense (and therefore brooks no opposition).
You appreciate that your value to me is proportionate to how good you make me look, and feel.
You somehow sustain yourself as an alluring sexual object to me, or I license myself to satisfy that demand elsewhere.
You may have noticed that what underlies all of these commandments is an inflated sense of entitlement (the attitude at the heart of narcissism). I look forward to your feedback and to your adding creatively, and from your own insights, to my assuredly uncomprehensive list.
(This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
Donna Andersen says:
Steve,
Magnificent!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 8:32am
newlife08 says:
Steve,
First reactions are :
You never cease to amaze me in your understanding of our experience. Your writing is factual with a poetic twist that makes each COMMANDMENT they convey not what we have necessarily HEARD said with our ears (although sometimes we have) but certainly what we have FELT was required to make the relationship continue.
Even God does not require this of us….how fitting a Narcissist would.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 8:54am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Steve, I’m sitting here at my desk, laughing out loud. Going back and forth over the list, trying to find my favorite.
Right now I’m leaning toward “You find that everything I say makes sense (and therefore brooks no opposition).”
And, of course, it’s not the narcissist’s fault if you’re too stupid, confused or mentally ill to grasp that fact.
Reading this reminded me of when I was trying to figure out what my ex knew that I didn’t, because he was always right and winning and I was always wrong and losing. So I tried a few times to mimic what he was doing, thinking that he must want both of us to have the same emotional, physical and sexual freedom he felt entitled to. Oh wrong, wrong, wrong. That wasn’t his idea at all.
I’m not sure why I find this so incredibly funny. Probably using humor to avoid the memories of how humiliating and creepy it really was. But all I’m tempted to say is, “Can I be a narcissist too? It sounds like a lot more fun than being the one who does all the groveling.”
But seriously, Steve, thanks for boiling this down. It’s a wonderful list. I can’t wait to call some of my friends and tell them to read this.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 9:01am
eyeswideshut says:
Brilliant Dr. Steve, May I humbly recommend two more?
YOU must accept my statements and prounouncements as uncontrovertable facts, because I made them, regardless of evidence to the contrary, or any doubts of my ability to predict the future.
YOU must accept that my mistakes are not mistakes, but that I have simply been persecuted by others because they envy my obvious superiority over them.
Make it three more
YOU must be eternally grateful for my patience and tolerance of people like yourself and others who I am obviously superior to.
Okay now this is starting to be fun…
YOU must accept that any and all of my needs or wants are justifiable, because I need or want them.
YOU must be grateful for my presence in your life and accept that as “love” regardless of how unpleasant or crazy I make our life together.
YOU must accept that if I act irrationally, it is simply because I have been driven to do so by you or others, who just don’t get how “special” I am.
How I wish that all of these commandments would have been easier to see at the time. In my case my P was very adept at looking like he was helping and accomodating me or others, when in fact he was actively undermining, gaslighting, conning or setting us up. Which brings me to one more
You must accept that regardless of how destructive I am, it is only to satisfy my needs, which of course is in your interest.
There was recently an article in the LA Times talking about how closely many politicians match the PCL scale thingy of Dr. Hare.
Too bad so many of the SPN’s do end up in the highest levels of power, and no wonder we end up struggling with the blowback of their arrogance and corruption as their constituants. Even when we get them out of our personal lives, there are so many in positions of power they affect us regardless.
In a time when the lowliest job at a box store involves phsycological screening and so on, it seems a shame that we the people cannot demand a method of screening out the power and war mongers that we “elect” to govern us and tell us what is good for us. Hmmmph…..Remeber how feted, respected and admired people like Ken Lay and Bernie Madoff were before they stumbled on their own petard? You have to admit, these folks are GOOD at what they do, until they lose sight of the vast bubble of lies they are floating in. Hmmmmph again.
How about one more
You must be grateful for my attention, even when you discover it all to be lies, because hey, at least I took the trouble to make up lies for you.
Peace to all and thanks Dr. Steve.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 9:35am
blueskies says:
Steve:)xx
… EWS, kath, donna, newlife, this is just perfect:)xx
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 10:54am
justabouthealed says:
Wonderful!
You must never expect me to be forthright and must respect my absolute right to withhold any and all information as I please.
You must never confront me with my words or promises from the past. That was then (five minutes ago), this is now.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:06am
newlife08 says:
You must understand what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine too. Do not expect me to share finances with you equally. Do expect me to hide funds, treat myself well and perhaps contribute a meager amount to the household.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:34am
hummingbird1418 says:
Excellent list.
You could also add:
You cannot question my distorted view of the truth.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:35am
Kathleen Hawk says:
You must accept that anything you give to me, anything I steal from you, any possible benefit I extract from my relationship with you is now mine, has always been mine, and its temporary stay in your possession was only to prepare it for being mine. And you will be appropriately grateful for the privilege of earning, inheriting or otherwise procuring what is mine, before I liberate from your lowly self to its true destiny as mine.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:45am
henry says:
Dr. Steve – I think Oxy is right ‘every sociopath is also a narcissist’ the double standard comment is right on~! I can remember being worn to a frazzle trying to keep him happy and interested and he would say “you never do what I want, it all about you’ I would set there in confusion thinking ‘what does he mean? I have turned my whole life over to him.” My question is “How can they expect this when they dont have a pot to pee in?”
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 12:22pm
JaneSmith says:
A response to the Narcissist from the newly empowered, disqusted, impatient, intolerant x victim:
You MUST back off, suckah, ’cause I’m no longer easy, susceptible, vulnerable, understanding prey for you to use, abuse and exploit!
You MUST back off ’cause your needs most definitely DO NOT supercede MY needs. It’s about equality, reciprocity not your selfish, savage, primitive, childish motivations and drives.
You MUST disappear, fall off the face of the Earth, jettison your useless self into space hopefully crashing on a lifeless asteroid, take a long walk off a short pier, meander onto zee Autobahn~walking, get lost in the wilderness and meet a pack of salivating, hungry coyotes, develop a chemistry experiment which either transports you into the unknown void or causes you to go…POOF!
(ok, got a little carried away on the last bit. But see? The Narc was the one responsible for his/her own demise. I simply observed and cheered. From a distance…haha)
Thanks, Steve. That was fun!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 12:23pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Wow….first, thanks all for the amazing feedback…what a creative and therapeutic exercise this can be?…i love the new, added commandments…EyesWideShut, Kathy, NewLife, JaneSmith (with your twist), Hummingbird, great job continuing the dissection of this personality!
Donna, thank you for your surprising feedback!
Steve
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 1:19pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oh, cool, Jane. I like this angle.
Here’s mine:
You MUST deal with my demands for reciprocity. Until you get it, you must breathe reciprocity, eat reciprocity, have reciprocity transfusions, read books about it, write essays on it, design reciprocity bumper stickers and bake reciprocity cookies. I’ll let you know when you’ve graduated from the school of reciprocity. In the meantime, you must…oh, where did you go?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 1:34pm
holywatersalt says:
You must always be my supply no matter whether or not I devalue and discard you
You must accept I am”sensitive” but expect no regard for your feelings
You must take my word as the word of your Lord and God
Very Good Steve….this is an oddly fun exercie.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 1:57pm
eyeswideshut says:
How about
YOU must project in public, whatever image of perfect union I expect you to project, along with unwavering support and admiration, regardles of the living hell I create behind closed doors.
Tee Hee….
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 3:22pm
OxDrover says:
WOW, STEVE!!!! AWESOME!!!!
Hummingbird, welcome back, haven’t seen your wings flapping recently, glad to see you still here!!!
To all the rest of you who added more “commandments” GREAT!!!! I am humming a tune appropriate to this theme, “This could go onnnnnn for-eveee-rrrrrr” ta da! We could make a million-word book out of the “commandments” and expectations of these creeps!
And of course there is NOOOOO way we will ever meet all their expectations and they are not really “forgiving” when we “sin” and “fail them.” LOL ROTFLMAO because they will always bring these things up 10, 20, 30, and yes, even 45 years later to remind us how pitiful and terrible we are and what failures.
Actually (tongue in cheek poking out here) I am so glad that they are as patient with us as they are, “seeings as how we are so inept!” ROTFLMAO
BOINK!!!! BOINK!@!! to all Ns and Ps and now can we sing a chorus of “Hit the road Jack, an’ don’t ya come back no more, no more, hit the road Jack….”
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 3:34pm
ANewLily says:
Steve, I agree with Donna, this is a magnificent list. The added commandments are, too. I reconize every one of them as his attitude.
I see nothing funny about the list at all. Perhaps it is because I have not recovered my sense of humor? I do remember, I think, that Kathleen says she covers up her hurts with humor.
My over-all and almost consuming reaction is to email this list (and the added commandments) to my EX. Not that I expect him to “get it” (we had already “discussed” these aspects that were hurting me so bad before I escaped and he didn’t “get it.”) but MAYBE he would show it to his live-in girlfriend, and even though he would show it to her with, “See, I told you she was crazy.” that MAYBE she has had time to recognize these aspects herself by now and will GET OUT before she wastes any more of her life.
He may have my email blocked — haven’t had any response from him for YEARS (but he can’t type) so maybe I should stick it in the snail mail?
Folks, if this is a bad plan, please stop me. The urge is really almost overwhelming!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 4:28pm
Inquirente says:
Steve, this is awesome, and everyone elses added comments! Unfortunately, and sadly these are most of the ways that S completely and is still controlling our niece and possibly her parents, however her mother has so many of these qualities as well! What chance does she have??
New Lily, I just finished a book called Children of the Self Absorbed … the overwhelming thought in this book is that N people will never get it as far as understanding that they are?? The only hope for dealing with them is to protect yourself knowing what they are…I don’t think your EX would get it and your better off just keeing the no cantact…
Beleive me my husband and I tried to point out these things to the S as well as to this niece and family. They are too deeply in the ‘fog’ I suppose to get it. But we still have hope!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 4:52pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
ANewLily,
Don’t do it. I had the same impulse myself, wanting to send the list to my ex. Hoping that if he looks at it he’ll get some insight. But believe me, they won’t. They’ll look at it and say, “Yeah, that’s how I am. And that’s why I’m smart and you’re not, I win and you don’t. And besides, you know you liked it and you know how lucky you were. So what is this about? A plan to get back together? I’m sure you’re missing me.”
That’s meant to be funny. I hope it makes you smile just a little bit. It’s just that they are so grandiose and so predictable.
Really don’t do it, because you don’t want to interact with these people. It’s like opening the line between you and them, and then leaving your mental phone off the hook, while you wait for them to respond.
They won’t. Or if they do, it won’t be something useful or happy-making. And there you’ll be, vulnerable, because you reached out. NOT where you want to be.
If you can, just drop the iron curtain down again in your mind. His problems are his problems. Likewise everyone who gravitates around them. I know it’s hard to stop caring, especially when part of you wants to scream at them, “What’s wrong with you? Can’t you see that he’s dangerous.”
But for your own sanity, you’ve got to disengage. Give your attention to things that truly make you happy or nourish you. These people don’t. They just drag you down.
My Buddhist friend once told me that he was using his “travelling time,” the free time when he was moving from one thing to another, to start putting a happiness gauge on his activities. So he could figure out what lifted his spirits, and what drained them.
Think about this. You’ve been doing so well, acting in favor of your own wellbeing. Don’t get derailed into another round of “he’s so awful.” It will just make you feel bad.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 5:16pm
justabouthealed says:
I agree. It is so hard to get our head around the fact that they can’t change. Think about a phobia. That can be gotten over. Think about an alcoholic….harder to cure, but it can be done. Mental illness….like schizo,….hard to treat, but can be treated, if the person takes their meds, etc. But personality disorder? We haven’t a clue how to really fix that. Esp. a narc, P, or S….they simply can’t sustain good behavior. They simply have very shallow emotions. Their brains aren’t working right.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 5:38pm
justabouthealed says:
PS Kathleen…Your “Yeah, that’s how I am. And that’s why I’m smart and you’re not, I win and you don’t. And besides, you know you liked it and you know how lucky you were. So what is this about? A plan to get back together? I’m sure you’re missing me.” IS PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!
You simply can’t win with these guys. If they are losing the game, they just change the rules and the objective.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 5:41pm
justabouthealed says:
Oh…we should get together for an annual convention and have a n/p/s imitation talent contest. Instead of who does the best Elvis impression, we can have who does the best Evil S impression. Not sure if you or Steve or Oxy would win…… You guys nail them!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 5:44pm
JaneSmith says:
ANewLily,
When I wrote my post I wasn’t in anyway seeking to trivialize the experience of others who are or were involved in relationships with predators.
I’m in a different stage of healing. Not better or stronger, just different. Further along, you might say.
I’m in the fighting back or flat out ignoring stages. If you read my post again you will see that I feel absolute disgust and loathing for these subhuman creatures.
It is beneficial and empowering for me to laugh at their audacity. To laugh in their faces proving to me/them that they’re not even a little bit superior to me. Actually, they are inferior to me and all people who have functioning consciences, complex emotions, who are mature adults, who have a soul.
I have 0 connection, communication, ties to the predators from my past. They are now only grim reminders to me of exactly what I do NOT want in my life and I will fiercely fight to protect my nonnegotiable boundaries, my safety and sanity from further predation.
If I offended you, I sincerely apologize. I will repeat, I was not making light of yours or anyone else’s experiences or situations. I’m not the type of person to say something so insensitive. That ain’t me.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 6:24pm
ANewLily says:
First, Jane, I had to go back and read your post. I most certainly was not offended in any way. In fact, I appreciated your clever humor, truly I did. I just do not have the same feelings. (Neither of us right or wrong!)
Folks, I thank all of you for your responses! My own foolishness makes me smile now! OF COURSE, I knew before I asked that it shouldn’t be sent. I did. I did.
It’s just that that urge came out of the blue and was so very strong, I needed reassurance.
Now, I’m feeling bad because so many of the newbies are still grappling with those urges to call him/her on a daily basis. Here I am “out” over 7 years and the urge (which I haven’t had for YEARS) was back in full force.
The good thing, is that already the urge is GONE and it has only been about 2 1/2 hours since I had it. I hope that is good news to those who are still struggling with the “urge.”
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 7:11pm
JaneSmith says:
**laughing at Kathleen’s reciprocity lecture to an oblivious predator**
ANewLily,
Phew…good, good glad to hear it! And yeah, that urge to rat out the rat, inform others of his/her dastardly deeds can be difficult to resist. We’ve all wanted to do that same exact thing. I tried to alert, warn the x sociopath’s new girlfriend but it obviously did not work. And I should have known it wouldn’t.
She’s pregnant now with his baby and I pray that child inherits her good and healthy genes and not his. She has made her choice and I sincerely hope he doesn’t cause her the pain and misery he gave to me. But he will. They always hurt the people that love them the most. They are experts in the pain giving department.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 7:54pm
Rosa says:
Hey, Narcissists of the World, I have a commandment!!!
Here it is: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
Sorry, you can NEVER have this one (even though you want it SO badly, don’t you?).
It’s already taken!! And that should scare the HELL out of you.
Good Luck in the Afterlife!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 9:44pm
shabbychic says:
Great!
YOU must understand why I don’t have a job.
YOU can feel like sh*t everyday, I don’t care.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:07pm
Rosa says:
Oops!
I was talking about my God, NOt Me!
I don’t know about anybody else’s God, but mine is a JEALOUS GOD! (Loving, but jealous.)
That was my point.
Sorry, I had a few margaritas (which I don’t usually do) with dinner tonight, and I came home a little liquored up.
It’s the 4th of July, you know.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 2 July 2009 @ 11:30pm
blueskies says:
A Newlilly,xx
I fought the urge to paste this list onto my mothers and sisters face book pages last night after a couple of glasses of Vino collapso, I thank goodness I didnt,but I wish they (and the whole world) could read it! Best not to stir up that hornets nest I know! I am having trouble recovering from the stings I already have!xx
*Kathleen’s reciprocity lecture is hillarious!*
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 2:26am
ThornBud says:
I LOVE THIS !!!!! LOL
You must not, under any circumstances, question my abilities, skills and knowledge
You must remember everything I say and u must not expect me to repeat things i said
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 6:44am
Matt says:
You must satisfy my sexual wants, needs and desires, but expect no such reciprocity from me.
You must be monogamous, but do not expect me to be monogamous.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 7:44am
blueskies says:
You must believe EVERY word that I say, I simply CANNOT be in a relationship with someone who does not trust me, I will of course be lying to you about every single thing.
YOUR failure (you have so very many my dear) to trust me will be regarded as YOUR abuse of WONDERFUL ME.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:02am
blueskies says:
You may have my precious attention, but only at a time of complete convenience to me or if I am bored (be that in the middle of your night) and only if you have been ‘good’.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:07am
ErinBrockovich says:
You must DO AS I SAY….not as I do!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:09am
ErinBrockovich says:
You will always be my cover and always take the fall for me….
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:11am
ErinBrockovich says:
You are expected to keep my secrets as I disclose ALL of yours!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:12am
blueskies says:
Kath ‘And, of course, it’s not the narcissist’s fault if you’re too stupid, confused or mentally ill to grasp that fact. – ROFLMAO!
I reserve the right to pass negative judgment on the behaviour of EVERYONE else in the world I myself am above such judgment and can behave in anyway that I please, so do not dare judge or question me.
Questioning my contradictory statements and actions will be considered abuse, and a symptom of your mental ill health and lack of intelligence.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:18am
blueskies says:
You must join me and support me in my vicious smear campaigns against others, including your close friends (Idiots and pigs the lot of them) non compliance with this indicates that YOU do not love me as much as I deserve to be loved.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:29am
ErinBrockovich says:
I insist on sitting ‘front and center’ in the Christmas photo, next to the Christmas tree….kids dressed in new jammies, you dressed and showered with hair styled and makeup, dog sporting the raindeer antlers and bells, and me in my old raggedy red robe, pissed off that the kids got me up so damn early, no rope to tie the robe shut and knees bent and legs open so my BALLS are hanging out. No one wants to remember the kids or the tree or the Christmas experience anyways you moron…..
I will question you relentlessly because you never framed our family Christmas photo! Then punish you for it.
This will be the only photo I participate in all year! You’ll LIKE IT!
OMG…..about 10 years ago, going through pics, I noticed this about the S….every Christmas picture from the time we first had kids, his ‘jingle balls’ were hanging out of his robe! I had no clue……
I only wish now that I would have cut them off, glittered them up and pierced them with the tip of the tree!
I may just frame these pictures now….
Sorry for the deviation….a little ‘lack of sleep’ memories going on here!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:31am
ErinBrockovich says:
I will blow peoples minds into silence with my hatful and spiteful portrayal of you. And you don’t have to worry about finding out I’m doing this…..because people are all so scared of me….no one will repeat my ill words.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:34am
ErinBrockovich says:
I will judge others doing negative acts harshly, so it diverts you away from thinking I would ever be doing the same.
BUT I AM…….
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:35am
ErinBrockovich says:
I am KING….and when I am not on my throne….I AM GOD!
Pray to me……
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:37am
blueskies says:
ERIN!:)xxx
‘I insist on sitting ‘front and center’ in the Christmas photo, next to the Christmas tree….kids dressed in new jammies, you dressed and showered with hair styled and makeup, dog sporting the raindeer antlers and bells, and me in my old raggedy red robe, pissed off that the kids got me up so damn early, no rope to tie the robe shut and knees bent and legs open so my BALLS are hanging out. No one wants to remember the kids or the tree or the Christmas experience anyways you moron…..
I will question you relentlessly because you never framed our family Christmas photo! Then punish you for it.
This will be the only photo I participate in all year! You’ll LIKE IT!’
This is HILLARIOUS! xxxx
The s/p I knew spent all day every day in a raggedy old robe with nothing to tie it closed and nothing else on… was always trying to ‘accidently’ draw attention to his ding-a-ling in photo’s…
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:56am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Wow, you guys are good. Really good. The creativity and thoughtfulness is amazing.
Steve
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 9:04am
blueskies says:
Steve:) YOU are good, really good. This thread has given me some much needed chuckles last night and today… what do they say about laughter being good medicine? Thanks Doc!;)x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 9:47am
James says:
Not to bring anyone down or take away the important of this thread for truly this is an avenue to reflect and heal. But what disappoints and grief’s me most is how they have the ability and/or desirer to break each and everyone of God’s Ten commandments and the aftermath by doing so.
Stay safe this Fourth of July!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 10:44am
breckgirl says:
Hi there – this is my first post at this site although I have been reading it intensively for a few months now.
Steve – you nailed it with your list.
I cannot thank the – I am just coming to recognize the names and learn my way around here – I cannot thank the people that write here enough – you Steve, Dr. Leedom, Donna Anderson and Kathleen Hawke – you have no idea the difference you have made in my life and in helping me return to sanity.
I’m not sure if this is the place to post my story so I will wait til I figure it out but every day my life is getting better and better and I have finally started to feel light on almost a daily basis and become myself again.
I just completed the domestic violence counseling provided by the local DV agency and my last meeting I handed out a list of the 3 -4 books and resources online that most helped me heal to both the leaders of the group and the women in it – you all were one of the 3 websites I put down.
I hope as you do here I am able to pay it forward. I was asked to be on the board of the agency and am taking some time to grow more before I feel comfortable accepting such a role but I will step by step return what has been so freely given me so that I may help women (and men) behind me and in hopes that we may begin to educate our children -
our pre-teens and teens particularly as they go out and test their wings and work out their own issues in relationships – in hopes and prayers that my young daughters and other girls and boys knowingly avoid predators and see past the many disguises they come in.
Again – with enormous gratitude – thank God for you all.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 1:06pm
Donna Andersen says:
Breckgirl,
Welcome. We are all glad that Lovefraud has been helpful to you.
It’s been 10 years since I left my sociopathic ex husband, and I can say that the emotional trauma of the experience is gone. It doesn’t take 10 years to get over it – I’ve been feeling fine for a long time. However, it does take time, so if you are recently out of the domestic violence situation, please take the time you need for yourself. Although many of us want to help others right away, it works out better if we ourselves are healed.
Best wishes in your recovery,
Donna
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 1:15pm
justabouthealed says:
All of us have much in common, but there are different kinds of N/P/S’s out there.
This is a good article about the “high level narcissist” which we have seen in many of our politicians and was the trap I fell into.
http://ezinearticles.com/?High.....id=1317305
For my recovery, I had to admit to myself that the N/P/S tapped into my OWN need to feel “unique and valuable”, etc. the narcissist in me. As this article points out (and I’ve ordered the book) the way to arm ourselves against these types of people is to know OURSELVES, weaknesses and strengths, and to hold tight to our integrity and self-respect. Had I done that, I would not have gotten hurt. And I got hurt BAD!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 1:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Beckgirl,
I second Donna’s sincere welcome and I am glad that you are here at LF and have been reading the articles and the comments for a while. I am also gratified to know that you have had some good real world support in your healing and journey as well. for so many of us there is NO real world face to face support, and not even sometimes validation that we are not the “crazy ones.”
Many of us that are farther out (time wise at least) from the events that brought us here hve stayed around just to lend support to the others, but also find in so-doing that we are furthering our own healing as well. I have been here almost two years (I feld my home in fear of my life in June of 07) and though I have been working on the road/journey toward healing, I still find that once in a while the old ugly face of EVIL trauma will rear its ugly head and bite me in the arse again and I will “react” to something that someone with out my prior experience of (multiple–in my case) Ps probably wouldn’t even irritate them.
Glad you are here!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 3:16pm
breckgirl says:
Donna- and OxDrover
Thank you for that advice -and your welcomes…
The actual event took place in December 07 – and it took me until Jan 09 to be able to actually attend the DV counseling that had been offered to me… I have done so much reading and learning and work with my therapist – and I am in no hurry to finish this process – I am finally able to enjoy being home alone without anxiety.
I have had to install and alarm and I have multiple restraining orders as he is a danger to me – I received a Tarasoff warning roughly in September of last year – he has been in jail well over 15 times since the precipitating event and I have and to 5150 him as well (he has gone completely insane over the last 3 years – he has had 3 stays in a hospital of 2 weeks in the last 14 months and yet the judge keeps allowing him to bail out for very low amounts – he is on a No Bail hold currently with a court date next week – one July 22 and a second trial possibly in August – so yes – I am definitely taking time to concentrate on me and heal myself. It has been a living hell and I could not face it for a long time as I felt so defective and it took me a long long time to see that I am not defective – just uneducated. That in fact I am the good person I try to be – I simply grew up in a family that taught me to tolerate tremendous amounts of abuse and I have a high tolerance for others quirks – without in the past having the ability to differentiate between harmless quirks and signs of narcissism or psychopathy.
This particluar relationship came after a marriage that if you can imagine was psychologically far more destructive to me and I see clearly I married my mother and then dated (may as well have ben a marriage) my father. Yikes!
Thank you again for the welcomes! And a Happy 4th to all.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 3:50pm
blueskies says:
Breckgirl, you do not sound even a little bit defective or uneducated. You sound amazing.
‘That in fact I am the good person I try to be – I simply grew up in a family that taught me to tolerate tremendous amounts of abuse and I have a high tolerance for others quirks – without in the past having the ability to differentiate between harmless quirks and signs of narcissism or psychopathy.’ wow. x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 4:08pm
Matt says:
Breckgirl:
‘That in fact I am the good person I try to be – I simply grew up in a family that taught me to tolerate tremendous amounts of abuse and I have a high tolerance for others quirks – without in the past having the ability to differentiate between harmless quirks and signs of narcissism or psychopathy.’
Amen, sister. Amen.
I grew up in a similar family. Extreme emotional and physical abuse were the norm. Looking back, I now realize that even as a young kid “walking on eggshells” was the norm. I never knew anything different.
S taught me a bitter and hard lesson — that I deserved not to be in an abusive relationship and that I didn’t have the energy to continue to live my life walking on eg gshells. I have wasted over 50 years of my life putting up with a long string of abusive people — from my parents to S.
Now? Some days I wonder how I ever lived like that. Other days I wonder how I lived through that. At the end of the day all I know is that I will not live one more day like that ever again.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 4:35pm
justabouthealed says:
Amen from me too.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 5:19pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Hmm…
Your list brings home to me that the soociopath, psychopath and nonspecific cluster B I knew all were narcissistic. They where just N + criminal, N + sadistic and N + mind bogglingly disorienting, respectively.
I wonder how I can use this insight. Thanks Steve.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 6:18pm
slimone says:
Oh Steve and All,
A MILLION huge hugs and thanks for the laughs and tears this article and subsequent posts brought to me.
“You somehow sustain yourself as an alluring sexual object to me, or I license myself to satisfy that demand elsewhere.”
As in (almost a direct quote): ‘You don’t walk very sexy when you get up in the middle of the night to go pee’. I had NO idea at the time this was his little hint at why he was soon to sleep with 3 other women in one week!
“You must recognize that double-standards are unacceptable, except when they’re mine (in which case they’re not double-standards, just differently applied standards).”
As in (another almost quote): ‘Every time we (past partners) have agreed to the rules of polyamory, they have broken the rules and cheated’ WTF?
“You must stop shoving the word “reciprocity” in my face. Reciprocity means that both of us do what I want and need.”
As in (blah, blah, blah): ‘why do you need so much rest on the weekend? We’re ALWAYS having to take time for you to rest and get ready for your work week…..what about what I want to do?’
This is from a guy with no job, who is spending all my money, and wants to stay up all night partying and screwing on the weekends. POOR baby.
And Breckgirl (Matt), I SO understand the childhood etiologies of abuse tolerance. They do make us prime meat for the abusers, what with our psyches being all wired up for the weird and damaging negative excitement brought on by these types.
Welcome Breckgirl! This is one generous and loving bit of cyberspace. I am glad you found your way here.
To the N/S/P: YOU must not confuse ME with YOU!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 6:49pm
justabouthealed says:
Slimone: I loved the “You don’t walk very sexy….”
That is SO like them. You feel constantly judged!
I’m with my husband now and feel very loved. And when I say “oh sorry, I look a mess” he says things like “Sweetie, you could never look like a mess to me.”
In my above post, I took ownership of my traits that let me get hurt….but always remember, without a bad guy, we wouldn’t have gotten hurt either! The bad guy is the REAL problem, not our vulnerabilities, but we do learn to protect ourselves.(I know, I’m like a broken record on that)
Yet it is reassuring to know that if he tried that crap today, it would not work. I can still get triggered by things, but I don’t act on it and I realize it is happening.
Progress….been two years for me.
I read that for a narc, dumping someone is given as much thought as they give to a backhanded slap to get a fly off their face.
Commandment:
You shall make no demands of me EVER.
If you are stupid enough to show me that you truly love me, you can’t expect me to resist hurting you.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 8:23pm
henry says:
HAPPY FORTH OF JULY to us all – hope our X’s step on a hot sparkler.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 9:06pm
Matt says:
henry:
I would prefer that my S sit on a hot sparkler.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 9:21pm
breckgirl says:
Henry – ROFL –
makes me remember the year we did illegal fireworks (okay yes I did willingly participate-) and when the police came to the door he made me answer while he hid in the kitchen.
Actually shockingly he manned up and walked around the corner as I was trying to handle it as gracefully as possible and he took responsibility – I almost fell over in utter shock (and relief) from that than I was from the police coming to the door. (The fine is $5,000.00 for lighting them off).
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 9:24pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Matt:
Barn burning update: Well, my law suit against the aircraft company that stole my husband’s patents was finally settled after 8 years and so my X-friends—who have the stuff in the storage building—I DON’T HAVE TO BE NICE TO THEM AT ALL ANY MORE. NC FOREVER!!!!! he was one of my critical witnesses if we had gone to trial….and since we are not going to trial, I no longer even have to PRETEND to be nice to them while they step all over my boundaries.
It’s too dry right now to burn it and with son D gone, want to wait til he gets back and salvages a few things from the building before we burn then doze it. Haven’t heard a single word from them since about a month before the deadline (60 days ago) saying they would get their stuff out by the deadline. NOT ONE WORD. Did take the doors and some of the windows off and some of the stuff in there is starting to “disappear,” but most of it isn’t worth the diesel fuel to light it on fire and what isn’t trash before, is trash, now since it has been sitting for 4-5 months raining in the hole in the roof.
We do need to remove some butane bottles and a few other things out of there before we light it on fire, but at the rate things are disappearing, I doubt there will be much left for them to move if they do show up. Son D and I have a bet that they will never show back up. I think they will show back up and son D says he doesn’t think they will. I’ll let you know what happens.
July 14th is the 5th anniversary of my husband’s death in the plane crash, son D is still gone to his summer job and son C is home with me…we went out to eat at a place my son C and my husband used to go to eat, nothing fancy, just memories adn it was good. Didn’t really want to get up and go “out” but son C wanted to go and wanted me to go with him, so since it isn’t often that a “handsome man” asks me out, I went anyway and we had a nice time.
Sometimes “time” seems so strange, it seems like 50 years sometimes and sometimes like 5 minutes since the crash, and since all the other stuff with the Ps. In fact, it was only two years ago last month that I bought the RV and ran for my life from the psychopaths.
Things are sure different now, and I’m doing so much better, there is a different atmosphere around here now. I’m P-FREE and loving it.
happy 4th to you, Matt, and Happy 4th to you, Henry!!! I like the thought of BOTTLE ROCKETS up the butt to the all!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 3 July 2009 @ 11:08pm
witsend says:
Oxy,
I was reading and saw your barn burning update. I don’t know if your barn is an antique/old barn or not. But if it is you might want to have your sons remove MOST of the “original” elements. Not just the Barn doors & windows, but also stall doors, wooden vents, original barn shelving, cupboards, peg boards etc. If antique/old, these salvaged pieces would be worth something and you might want to have a yard sale.
Wish I lived closer, I would come to the sale and maybe ride your mule:) I love old barn “stuff” & mules to.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 7:53am
blueskies says:
Oxy, I am so glad you got out and had dinner with your handsome man:)x Congatulations with regards to your lawsuit, and no longer having to be nice to non-friends:)x I will be thinking of you on the 14th and sending you loving vibes over the pond and Happy Barn Burning!!!!:)x(I have never heard of such a thing before being a small island city gal;)x Dont forget the Mashmallows!x
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 8:07am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Congratulations OxDrover.
It’s a shame you can’t burn the barn for the 4th of July!
Blessings,
Elizabeth
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 8:55am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Happy 4th of July! I’ll remember this one!
And thanks to Oxy, Donna, Steve, ltl and everyone here who have given me the insight and knowledge to survive a sad day and go on.
I have/had a friend. A good person, who has suffered much and gone on. Not a romantic relationship, but one I thought had grown in trust and respect over the last year.
A few months ago, I had one of those gut feelings something was wrong. I had lunch with her, and she revealed she had been “stalked” over the past few weeks…oddly enough I had taken Gift of Fear to lunch to give to her. She’d experienced
non-stop phone calls, unwanted visits at midnight to her house, and uninvited appearances whenever she went out…after she accepted one dinner invitation. She wouldn’t give me enough information or identify her stalker. A month later, she told me the situation had been resolved and gave me no details.
This week…I began to get the same gut feeling. Sat with her and some other friends at a concert. Her phone was ringing every few minutes and she looked at it…wouldn’t answer it. Then, about 10 minutes later, a new “friend” showed up. Her demeanor changed…she stopped talking to anyone else…and at the end I saw her succumb to his “ownership”. I went back late the next night (last night)to another concert, he was there beside her. I sat with some other friends, and one of those in her group came by. She pointed out my good friend and said I should say “hi”…I replied that I was introduced to her new male friend last night, and he probably wouldn’t want me to join them. I was told he always “just showed up” all the time when they were out. I asked if he was the one who was calling incessantly and showing up at my friend’s house at midnight, uninvited? Yes he was. He’d never stopped.
Well…I guess I was lied to. The trust is one. And I think she’s in the FOG. I sent her an email this morning…said I’d be her friend again when she was ready, but I was disappointed and hoped I was wrong. And in the meantime I had to let it go.
I guess I’m NO CONTACT…and it hurts like hell. But I’ll survive, time will pass, I’ll go on.
Life has rewards, and disappointments. She was, and is, so good in many ways. I referred her to look at Lovefraud a year ago when she’d let a cheating ex-husband come back after the divorce and hurt her again…don’t think she came here. She’d been living alone for a year…no counseling…doing well…then this.
Thanks for being here.
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 9:52am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Correction: “The trust is gone.”
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 9:55am
confused2 says:
Jim in Indiana
I know a little bit about how you feel. I opened up just a tiny bit to a friend about the S that was in my life about a week ago, also told her I was no longer seeing him. She had met him once months ago and he was his usual charming self. The next day my friend e-mailed me and was asking a few questions about S and wanted to know stuff like where he lived, worked, grocery shopped etc. in case she ran in to him. I got a vibe she was interested in him and wanted to connect or “hookup” with him. My first thought was WTF?? Now I’m thinking maybe I should go NC with her because I don’t want anything I say to get back to S because I’m afraid of reprecussions…and she knows this!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 10:44am
lostingrief says:
hi all,
fascinating list of rules, but it leads me to a question.
do their rules apply to everyone?
for example, the ‘you must not inconvenience me.’ if i asked him to go out of his way, it would be a hot ‘no!’, but if his wife (who he treated worse than me) would ask him to stop at 20 stores on his way home, he would just do it.
conversely, ‘you must find what interests me, interesting’; he and his wife are polar opposites and he could care less if she shares his interests, and he and i had many shared interests.
so, do they have different rules for different people in their lives?
july 11 will be one year of NC for me. still feels like yesterday. still good and bad days. he has completely stopped calling me. last call was three months ago (although his friend called once and i NC’d him too). just wish things were different … in so many ways.
i find that i am isolating myself more and more instead of less and less. getting fatter by the day, and don’t really trust anyone. i think if a guy tried to be nice to me, i’d punch him in the face. not good.
on the other hand, i’m enjoying the lack of drama, and the peace and quiet of life without him. i think what i miss most is the physical affection. real or not, it was prevalent, and my body physically hurts without it. that is what makes me the saddest right now.
many of my old friends here sound well … and i’m so grateful that we are all finding healing in our own ways. LF has been such a critical resource for me. i can never thank any of you enough for your continued support and understanding.
towanda!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 12:19pm
lostingrief says:
confused2:
i don’t like to give advice, but from my own experience NC with ANYONE who has ANYTHING to do with the ex-s/p/n is crucial.
not having any information about them, and certainly them having NO information about you seems to be the safest alternative. because with just one tiny bit of bait, they go for the whole fish!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 12:24pm
confused2 says:
lostingrief
Please give all the advice you want, that’s what I need now in my life. I am going NC with this friend, she has always liked drama in her life so she’s welcome to it. Me, I like things calm and easy. I told her very little about S, but I did tell her I was more than a little afraid of him and that he is the reason I quit my job, you would think that would be enough. I just feel a sense of betrayal from her.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 12:55pm
lostingrief says:
everyone has their own agenda.
but hers is very different from yours right now, apparently.
she probably thinks she can change him.
boy, is she in for a rude awakening!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 1:36pm
ANewLily says:
Oxy, first – I was delighted to hear that the lawsuit was finally settled. That must be a terrific relief after so many years.
Regarding the barn: Can’t remember who mentioned it but I agree that if it is possible to dismantle the barn piece by piece you may be able to collect some unexpected $$ from it, which would include saving the wall boards.
A millionaire relative years ago (in another state, a farming state) built his new house almost entirely from old barn wood. I’ll never forget the mantel he constructed from barn parts. It was magnificent.
In this economy, I’ll bet there are a lot of people who could use reused wood for their purposes.
Indiana Jim: I’m so sorry that you have lost trust in a person you thought was a friend. If possible, can you still try to ’save” her from herself? The antics of the “new” friend are so similar to those of my EX I wanted to scream out, “RUN!” to her. Yet, she is a big girl and how can we even hope to “rescue” adults?
confused 2, I have no idea what advice you really want or if I can even give it to you — but, before going totally NC with this friend, could you first check out the why she is asking these questions? It may be that you only gave her “tidbits” that caused her to be curious — maybe curious about what knowing more could help her be a true understanding friend to you.
I’m not sure of that advice because I learned (after the fact) that one of my “friends” during the last couple of years of my sham “marriage” perceived that I was getting ready to “kick him to the curb” (even before the final abuse that caused me to leave SUDDENLY) and she was just waiting in the wings to hope to snag him, a doctor, for herself!!!!! I realize I had only told her “tidbits” too. Felt terribly guilty (after the fact) that I hadn’t told her more details. I learned that she spent the next year “befriending” the “poor, hurting man whose mean, selfish wife had left such a wonderful person” but in the end he didn’t choose her. I don’t know any more than that because she was the first person I went NC on and I didn’t even yet know about “no contact.” I felt sorrier for her than me — and rejoiced that I learned that she had never even been a true friend. That realization caused me pain for about two weeks and that was all.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 2:02pm
confused2 says:
ANewLily
I chose to tell this one person a little bit about S because she too was involved with an S a few years before. He stole nearly $5000.00 from her and she tried with little success to get it back. I told her my S also was trying to get money from me but broke up with him because I started to heed the red flags. I also told her he was very vindictive and a few things that he mentioned. She was in complete agreement with me until the next day when she wanted to know more about him. I could be a little paranoid but I’m starting to learn to trust my gut instincts now. Before she knew I was involved this S, she wanted me to give him her phone number, she said she was interested in him. So I guess she still is.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 2:23pm
enigma101 says:
So Steve,
what to do if you find yourself here???
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 2:45pm
housie says:
Steve,
I found myself feeling anger as I read this list. I wanted to smash his face in. Hmmmm. Guess I still am still processing some grief. This list is SO him. What a pathetic creature he is. I was just reviewing a book by Stanton Samenow regarding the criminal mind yesterday. Although the psychopath I married to wasn’t anti-social in the sense of criminality as in prison crimes,(he was more sneaky and devious), his actions were more socially abhorrent – like screwing women out of possessions by feigning affection and love to get them to dote on him with gifts, or marrying a woman with M.S. and then using all of her disability money and then leaving her in an adult family home and moving in with another woman who had money before the divorce was even final with #2. Behavior included fondling my sisters when they were young, which I didn’t find out about until just recently, or befriending a doctor and using him to live in his summer home, and of course, my ex’s friends all had to be “somebodies” in the eyes of society to make him look good, and so he could namedrop. He once held a seminar with an expert forensic psychologist on recovery from cults. He even fooled the psychologist. That’s how slick he was. I could go on and on, but you get the idea. And I finally get the idea, which is the best news of all. This guy was so slick that he convinced others that the things they did for him were really THEIR idea. That way it was never REALLY stealing or cheating. You could never really pin him down with anything, as it didn’t APPEAR illegal. What a slimebag. He was more seductive than the abberrant criminal. He reminds me of a Bill Clinton.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 3:22pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
ANewLily=
“Indiana Jim: I’m so sorry that you have lost trust in a person you thought was a friend. If possible, can you still try to ’save” her from herself? The antics of the “new” friend are so similar to those of my EX I wanted to scream out, “RUN!” to her. Yet, she is a big girl and how can we even hope to “rescue” adults?”
ANewLily-I’d like to “save” her, but she will not give me the information, including his full name, to even start. She wanted to “be nice” and “felt sorry for him” when he escalated to coming to her house at midnight…didn’t want to call the police…he was looking in the windows when she didn’t answer the door!
It’s been 2-1/2 months since she first told me, and had been going on for weeks.
She knows I now know. I think he has enough control now she’ll discard me at his insistence. I first saw him two nights ago…she changed immediately. She had, before his arrival, suggested I come again last night. I was 80% sure he was her stalker the first night and certain the second.
She has gone from “nice” to fearful…I see it in her eyes.
My gut knew…and I now know. I haven’t slept much for two nights…it’s tearing me apart. She hasn’t responded to my email.
I have to save myself first. She is in the FOG…Fear, Obligation,Guilt.
I fear for her safety and spirit…I asked a police friend if the general description fit anyone stalking before. 53-54 years old, farmer, mother recently died….nope. She told me in April he was unmarried, divorced years ago once from a wife who mistreated him, no children(all from him to her-truth?) I gave her info on how to check county court records by name search in April after she refused to tell me his name.
She told me in May or June there no longer was a problem…but provided no details…now I know why. Now I have a first name and physical description, and know someone who knows him. I may be able to get his last name from him, but without attracting attention…might take a week or so.
I don’t think she’ll talk to me now. I might as well go NO CONTACT…and it hurts bad.
Can’t believe he hasn’t done this before…somewhere, sometime.
God, I hate this, she was so good, hurt and recovering but no counseling…and picked out by this predator. She’s in denial. The way she introduced me to him, as her “lunch buddy”…she was minimizing our friendship…to protect me?
She’s “gone” but not forgotten…but I won’t be pressing her…too late, I think.
And I can’t let it consume my life. I have other pressing responsibilities.
I’ll do what I can, when I can.
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 3:53pm
Rosa says:
Indiana Jim:
You are a really good man. Unfortunately, it is usually futile trying to save an adult from a toxic relationship. People are going to do what they are going to do.
Honestly, I have an easier time getting through to my 5-year old niece than I do to my adult brother, who is in his 40’s.
You are handling the situation perfectly, as far as I am concerned.
Hopefully, she can find her way out of the FOG.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 4:31pm
henry says:
Indiana Jims – Thanks for explaining that fog feeling I was so clouded by months ago – fear – obligation and guilt.. First time I have heard it that way but that describes it perfectly and only we who have had our head in the clouds and up our ass understand F_O_G.. Your friend has her head up her ass right now and she cant hear you, but you will be there for her if and when she needs you. I had friends tell me my X was trash and I deserved better, but did I listen? nope – I just thought they were jealous of my happiness.. was that happiness? hell no but I had to learn the truth on my own then get pissed off and pry that leach off of me cause I was about dead – wish I had listened back then but what did they know? They (the people that loved me) were prolly hoping they were wrong about my X, or that I could fix him..I tried but failed so I fixed myself…..
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 5:12pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Henry and Matt:
I’m hoping for an M-80…..as a nice 4th of July seat cushion for the ex S!
HAPPY 4th my LF friends I bid you happiness as you watch the fireworks explode over wherever you may be.
Freedom for us, as survivors of exploding relationships and lives!
ENJOY and keep safe!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 6:38pm
witsend says:
Jim in Indiana,
Sounds like your friend has got herself a problem. And although it sounds like she isn’t in complete denial since she did admit that he was stlking her it also sounds like she has “overlooked” this and was baited back into his trap.
I think the best thing you can do for her now as a friend is be a soft place for her to fall, when she is ready. Because it sounds like she will need a friend when she has had enough of this “fear” driven relationship.
However I have had a few girlfriends in the past that seemed to go from one toxic relationship into another. And back in the day (about 10 years ago) evidentally I was a pretty good listener. As I seemed to be that “person” that my friends came to when they needed to talk and vent and cry and…….Well you know.
After awile of being a good listener for several years though, I kind of lost my patience with it all. With 2 of these g/f in particular it was ALWAYS the same senerio. Same situation, differerent guy. Finally I started to offer advice instead of just lending the listening ear…Lol. (not so sure THAT was appreciated!)
So if she isn’t ready to hear what you would say to her now chances are she will need your friendship down the road.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 7:23pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Thanks witsend….and prayers and thoughts for you and your son.
I’ll miss a good friend while I wait…and life will go on.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 10:04pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Rosa…thanks to you, too. I’ll do what I can, if she asks. Other than that, I won’t be stalking her for updates…she misled me about the continued stalking…she knew what I’d have said. Won’t understand it…I was there when she wanted to talk…and didn’t tell me….and I asked.
Maybe someday, maybe never. I can pray, but I can’t afford to have expectations.
Sad.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 10:13pm
hesajjjrk says:
More Narcissist’s Commandments:
YOU must take my word as the truth, because I said it, even when it makes no logical sense at all
YOU must accept whatever I do, even when it makes no logical sense at all
YOU must realize that I can do whatever I want, simply because I can, even though it makes no logical sense at all
YOU must realize that to me lying, cheating, and stealing are not bad when the means justifies an advantage FOR ME
YOU must realize that you and the children have been just actors on MY stage and I am the director
YOU must realize that you and the children are very expendable, once I get and take what I want from you so I can move on to bigger and better things, because I can, and because I think I am a superior human than you are
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 4 July 2009 @ 11:48pm
Rosa says:
Narcissist Commandment #….??? (Whatever)
YOU MUST NEVER LEAVE ME ALONE….for then I will be faced with the huge, Grand Canyon-sized gap that exists (in my empty psyche) between my over-inflated view of myself, and the way I really am.
The way I perceive myself =
(Superior) vs. The way I really am = 
(LOSER)
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 12:52am
PInow says:
LOL, Rosa,
Can I frame that?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 12:54am
Rosa says:
PInow:
Of course you can.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 12:59am
ANewLily says:
Jim, you wisely stated, “I’ll do what I can, when I can.” You don’t really have any other choice, do you?
At the first reading of this dilemma for you, my reaction was that the lady is jumping from the frying pan into the fire — and fits a common pattern. You say she hasn’t received counseling so she probably hasn’t even considered that she should do some introspection to discover why she was trapped by the first S before she even attempts to have another relationship — even if it would turn out to be a healthy one. However, I have come to assess that the chances of finding a new healthy mate while still in the FOG just isn’t a possibility. Someone (on another blog, I think) several years ago mentioned that while still wounded we have a big N on our foreheads, meaning I’m an N target, come and get me. That rang as truth to me.
Another friend — and others have repeated it — is that if an N or S is on one side of a crowded stadium with thousands of spectators, the N or S can “smell” a potential target sitting on the complete opposite side.
This latter one probably rang the loudest “truth” to me because my EX picked me out from a crowd of about 2,000 college freshmen during the orientation dance. Oh, ICK! The memory is too sickening to even try to explain — and that happened almost 54 years ago. I was as naive as they come but I DID have gut reactions against his behavior. I didn’t want to date him at all but I was taught to be “nice” and never hurt anyone’s feelings. I got TRAPPED for 46.5 years before I could escape his clever control over me.
I’ll pray for this girl — and others like her (and me) for the rest of my life! I am no longer naive but I’m not in the slightest interested in another relationship. I’m realistic enough to know that at my current age — 72 — the only men available are most likely men who need a cook and nurse for their old age! I do wish I could meet one that was content to just be a friend/companion , totally platonic. But, I don’t think those exist, do they? No problem. I’m content in my singleness as long as I have LoveFraud friends!
Wow, I wrote more than I meant to — I guess I needed to get some things out that I’ve been holding in — as has been my bad habit for a lifetime. (Also one of the reasons I could survive so long in such a bad situation, I think.)
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 1:33am
ANewLily says:
Rosa, there haven’t been any commandments and additions to them that haven’t “rung a bell” with me. I think I wrote at the beginning of the thread that these commandments made me realize WITHOUT NO MORE DOUBT that my Ex was a full-blown narcissist. I can’t believe that I vacillated so long before the TRUTH finally sunk in. I have never doubted that I made the correct decision to pack my suitcase and my laptop and FLY AWAY even though I didn’t even know where I was going — except recognized the name of the city!
All that to tell you that your added commendment, “YOU MUST NEVER LEAVE ME ALONE….” really brought up the most frequent challenge I had with him. Plus, he made sure I was never alone, either, (so I couldn’t escape?) Don’t know. But, my greatest relief I’ve had since I left is that I don’t feel smothered any more. I’ve aappreciated that relief even more than no longer suffering “out of the blue” physical attacks.
One of my first counselors after I had arrived in the new city (where I knew no one) assessed “it” as Stockholm Syndrome.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 1:44am
ANewLily says:
Oh, PI, I notice that commandment hit you between the eyes, too. I’ll be we aren’t the only ones. The adage, “Misery loves company,” comes to mind BUT I hate it that so many of us are in misery. Life is grand and precious and meant to be lived with NORMAL people! Some misery is to be expected but NOT this kind!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 1:48am
tdpprocessing says:
Thou shalt understand that when you are of no further use to me, you are as significant as a crumbled up piece of paper that I will simply toss into the trash and never think of again.
Thou shalt understand that if you expose me, I will stop at NOTHING to ruin you and I have all the time in the world to plan and execute an effective counter attack.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 2:24am
OxDrover says:
Dear Guys,
Thanks–the “barn” is a SHANTY on 1/4 of an acre that cornered on our property that we bought, it wasn’t worth fixing so we used as a “warehouse” storage building for lumber til part of teh roof blew off a few months ago, I told my X-friends they could store stome stuff there and when the roof blew off I told them, and then told them I was going to destroy the building on June 1, (gave them 90 days notice) they still haven’t come gotten the stuff. We will slavage some of the lumber and windows and doors out of the building, but it is mostly FIRE WOOD and nails. Will burn it with the fire department (my son is volunteer on it and I am retired from 13 yrs on it) then get a friend to bull doze the rest and bury it to clean up the lot. I wish it was a real antique barn!
Jim, I am so sorry about your friend’s situation. Unfortunately, though she “got away’ from the first P she did not HEAL, she did not learn what it was about herself that made her vulnerable to such a controlling STALKER.
Just for a minute think about this—you and I are friends, imagine ME in the situation she was in with the guy coming toMY house at midnight, calling and so on. Can you IMAGINE WHAT I WOULD HAVE DONE? What Tilly or any of the rest of the SOOPER-DOOPER GALS here on LF would have done—-we would either have shot the window peeping creep or at the VERY LEAST CALLED THE COPS. We sure would not have gone to a concert with him, or let him sit by us if he showed up.
Why? Because though in the past that kind of stalking might have worked with some of us but because we are learning about them AND OUR SELVES and what the FOG is that we would NOT HAVE TOLERATED HIM.
In addition to that, she KNOWS you KNOW what is going on, and actually, I think she is ashamed that she has complained to you about his stalking and NOW SHE IS WITH HIM. So, YOU KNOW about him, she has already exposed what he is, and she is with him, and she knows you know—-so ring around the rosey!
Even though she has been with a psychopath in teh past, she has NOT LEATRNED A DARN THING about healing and keeping herself free from these people. She has not grown as the people here on LF have grown. She is not able or willing to put forth the effort and pain necessary to fix the only person she can fix, HERSELF. She is still wishing that someone else can “proavide” her with “happiness”—-ain’t gonna happen.
Jim, I know you think she betrayed you, lied to you, but I think she is LYING TO HERSELF rather than you. I think you had even indicated that you were kind of hoping that this friendship might eventually turn into more than just a “lunch buddy” relationship (if I am worng please excuse my CRS) but she is betraying herself AGAIN.
I think lots of folks who “blame the victim” (like her) who gets out of one BAD relationship and then either goes back to the first BAD ACTOR or finds another bad actor, doesn’t really realize what is happening. These people who are so traumatized, but don’t really realize WHAT hit them , retain the vulnerability they had that made them vulnerable to the first P-abuser, and then the next P0abuser comes along and BINGO someone “familiar” is there to fill the VOID. RINSE AND REPEAT! AND REPEAT! AND REPEAT!
It is ONLY when WE wake up and get out of the FOG that we are going to be ABLE TO Have a REAL and VALID P-FREE LIFE!
Jim, I think your friend is still a wounded and vulneable prey animal who is seeking solice and is “looking for love in all the wrong places”—-what this man offers her she is familiar with, it feels “normal” and also will keep her involved in the drama of pain that she is used to, and it will FEED HER ADDICTION to the drama and pain she is accustomed to. On some level she knows it is self destructive, but she has no idea how to breakk the addiction. She is just like a herion addict that has been off the dope for a while, but is going back again—on some level knwing it is bad, but unable to stop herself from picking up that syringe. Pray for her and pity her, and please don’t dispise her weakness….”but for the grace of God, there I go.” (((hugs)))) and my prayers for you Jim, my friend.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 8:59am
Glinda says:
You must never trust what you see with your own eyes. The truth is what I say, not what you see. Stop looking. Shouldn’t you be cooking for 30 of my family and friends?
You must believe what I tell you without question, even when I’ve given you 3 versions of it- and then deny all three because we never even talked about it. You’re just being a crazy b*tch again.
You must not harp on broken promises. I never promised anything. You made it up.
You must understand that only I know what is a good idea. Let’s move to Utah where polygamy’s legal. (Big Love was a new show on HBO.) (He had been abusing my young daughter and had been promising to marry her when she was old enough. He didn’t want to divorce me- I make decent money.)
You must believe it’s all your fault- even though I did nothing wrong. Whatever bad I did that I didn’t do you made me do it.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 9:32am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…of course, right again. ANewLily, too. Thanks.
Oxy, out of frustration, I guess I gave the impression I blamed my friend…I understood why she did what she did in regard to me. That’s why she won’t want to see or talk to me.
I talked about stalking, lent her Gift of Fear, suggested she might want to try counseling as it helped me, recommended Betrayal Bond, sent her a quote from Viktor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning and suggested it. (A lot of this before the stalker appeared).
And here we are.
I have to let it go…breaks my heart, but I have to hope time will heal it.
I blame the predator…when I saw him my hackles went up…I had a gut reaction.
Can’t save the world. Can’t even save one. Maybe can save myself…that’s about all I got.
Thanks for bringing me back to earth…I was hoping beyond hope, I guess.
I’ll still walk, cry, pray for my friend every day…and find the beauty and joy I can. What little wisdom I have comes with a great price…that’s life.
Glad you all and Lovefraud are here.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 10:57am
ErinBrockovich says:
JIM:
Unfortunately this is the path to wisdom…..it can’t be infused by others voices.
Wisdom is the gift you earn from learning about life.
You got you and your shadow…..and from what I have found….our shadows don’t even shelter us from the sun…..so continue to have faith in yourself and pray that your friend will walk out of the FOG one day….. prior to too much damage being done.
Unfortunately, I believe this is ALL you can do at this point.
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 11:19am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Jim…
You saw the red flag waving and you reacted. TOWANDO… Remember the days in the past you would see red flags and turn the other way, or have self-doubt or overlook em….
Whatever caused your hackles to go up — was the gift of your wisdom! Whether it stems from your feelings for her that you have so graciously shared and given her the past year and half or whether it stems from you simply sensing something was”amuck”… or whether its all her own problems and poor decisions or selfish decisions you were witnessing…no matter… you stopped and changed direction because it didnt feel right…you sent her an email and spoke your peace. Do not second guess yourself…
Her trust will have to be earned. Her choices are hers. Friends are expected to be trustworthy. If there was an interest for more than friendship on your part – and she was unaware of that – then that is another story, I think. But if she was aware, then what she did was in very poor taste. And if there was no further interest than friends on your part, then perhaps you do have to sort out what triggered you and your hackles to go up (was he really a prior stalker or did she revert to that term because they were having trouble letting go ? What really is the deal/her deal with all of her choices, etc….all of which she has to sort out on her own…and always know you are right, you cant save the world, or even one…just yourself.
And you did, you reacted to the red flag that was waving. Im sorry for your saddness and pain. If she is a bright lady, then no doubt she knows the great loss she will experience once you let it go. You know as well as me that time does heal vs. staying in an uncomfortable place hoping beyond hope. If she ever gets her act together and wants to earn your trust…you will be able to decide whether there are any red flags waving or she has learned about “black and white flags” and telling it like it is…the truth.
The wisdom you have and get from living your life to the fullest with a commitment to self-love and self-protection…catapults you forward to brighter days and experiences…Hang in there, life awaits…. xoxo -Abby
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 12:14pm
newlife08 says:
You must understand I only did what I did because I didn’t want to be with you!!!!
So after all these years of NOT going to fireworks, he takes my son last night. For years he would not take the kids!!!!
And he sees me, daughter and her friend and has my son SUMMON her over to speak with her. She eventually went over to him and in front of her friend, he gets on her case about going to lunch with him. She is 15 and does not go weekend visitation because she has major issues with him and knows pretty much what he is. Poor child knew before I did he wasn’t right.
He can call her anytime – he did not need to intrude on the evening with his issues.
ThenSon comes to the house at 11:00 pm for a phone charger. If N didn’t live around the corner this would not be going on!!!
He walks in and is pissed because N was on the phone with skank next door. Son finds it very uncomfortable to have to overhear dad talking to her. She is not someone N met after divorce or some other way of having a GF. SHE IS THE NEIGHBOR and my son knows our families have never spoken a word to each other – he just doesn’t know it is because of their first affair.
Anyway, I go out and ask N to display a little respect for his son and allow him the luxury of now having to deal with their conversations. N can acall after son is asleep. My son has to see this OW everyday if he goes in the yard and he looks forward to time with his dad and getting away from staying out of his own yard to avoid her.
BUT NO – he replied NO ONE is going to tell me who I can talk to and manipulate me!!!
There you go – not even for his son to feel validated and a voice to be heard. It makes me sick how sick he is. I have no man in my life – would not especially now- who knows when I ever will. How could I do that to my kids right now.
But that is another answer from him – I NEED A MAN!!!
My God!!!!!
So, I guess my question is – do we run interference for our kids or leave them on their own to manage their N-dad?
Son did not want to go back with his dad last night but he did go after he cooled down a bit.
N was extremely abusive ordering me to send my son outside – which I refused to do if son wasn’t ready.
I consider N’s lack of feelings for my sons feelings as emotional abuse.
But of course I am the crazy lunatic.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 12:41pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Yes….we are always wrong…it’s not me….IT”S YOU!!!!
Okay…now we got that off the table…..
I think the more we ’step in’ especially with the kids being this age, allowed to have their own feelings (but not being validated) that we should step aside and let the process of ‘growing’ be experienced by our kids. They do get it.
If your son is upset about the phone call…he should ask his father to be ‘present’ with him during the visits. He doesnt’ have to attack the OW to his father, he can approach it with dignity and with ‘grown up’ feelings.
Dad will respond to him the same way……and this we can’t protect from….but what it does is show the kids ‘who’ their father is without us interfering or becoming a target for them.
I would encourage your kids that they are validated, are allowed to own their own feelings, and allowed to express themselves with respect to their father. Whatever it is they are feeling.
Let them know that they are not in control of their fathers responses, yet it should not dictate to them how THEY express themselves.
They have a right to expression.
If the child doesn’t wish to continue visitation, they have that right aswell…..if the ars wants to bring it up in court….you will have the detailed documentation of this.
I think we can only encourage, but not demand of our children.
So….you crazy lunatic….stop controlling the N!!!!!
What a typical response!
My advice….don’t open yourself up to this from him…..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 1:01pm
newlife08 says:
Erin,
Thanks for your input. I will try to look at it as growing for my son and try not to focus on saving him from the inevitable.
I don’t worry as much about my daughter in this regard – she has experienced more years of it and figured out so much already.
Question – you said ” Dad will respond to him in the same way”
I really don’t expect N to respond in a grown up manner.
Do you?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 3:22pm
endthepain says:
newlife08….WOW..WOW..WOW!!! I read what wrote…”I will try and look at it as growing for my son and try not to focus on saving him from the inevitable”…OMG!!! that gave me chills….you summed it up in a nutshell…I just totally had an “aha!” moment…GOOD FOR YOU!!! and Thank you, as well…that really hit home for me today!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 3:32pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Ya…..NO!
Not a bit…..
I also think he knows and is fully aware of the OW/neighbor being a hot point for you all. This is something you should steer outwardly away from. Take away any buttons he may push.
If you gave him a hard time about talking to anyone else on the phone……he wouldn’t have perhaps responded the same way…..but he knew what he was doing…..
You will never win in anything to do with OW. period! He will throw it in your face each and every time……
That’s the game.
You son will grow and learn as you see your daughter has done. your daughter will also talk to your son about the father and their ‘relationship’ as he seems perplexed.
It’s a natural progression of reaching out to people you trust and know situations.
It is hard to see our kids hurt….this is why we go into “mama bear’ mode.
But, sometimes it’s best to let them deal with things on their own.
Get the bumps and bruises…..
You can be there for your son as a bandaid, holding the ice bag.
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 3:41pm
newlife08 says:
Erin and ETP,
Thanks to both of you. Son just got home . He asked for spinach chicken soup???? and I winged it – he was very happy to come home to what he asked for. And we are having baby back ribs – another Yummm moment for the kids.
It will be a good night – I know I need to step back and let life happen to them too – you are right – bumps and bruises or they won’t grow emotionally and psychologically.
Can’t thank you enough – that’s why this board is so great!!!
THOSE THAT HAVE TRAVELED AHEAD, SIDE BY SIDE OR JUST CHECKING IN – THERE IS WISDOM HERE THAT KEEPS ME GOING ……..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 5 July 2009 @ 6:09pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
learnEDthelesson(Abby)…the “hackles rising” was a reaction, not of jealousy, but to watching him in action. And I have confirmation from others that he was following her and definitely “stalking”, ignoring any appropriate boundaries. And from the beginning, she and I had a “just friends” agreement, at her request, which I honored. I grew to love her, in the Greek philos (friendship) and storge (respect) ways, and told her that. I probably hoped for more, if it happened, but did not expect it with any certainty.
A little over a week, ago, in an email, she called me a “true friend”. She originally complained to me about his stalking actions, then told me later it was no longer a “problem”…sort of a half-truth.
As usual, looking backward, other pieces of a puzzle fall into place.
And Erin…thanks. I spent a lot of time walking this weekend…me and my shadow…strolling down the avenue…nowhere near her house…at least a half-mile away. I know I’m not a P, N, or stalker.
Sent an email last night to my therapist…need an extra session. When I discussed her and the stalker’s coming to her house at midnight uninvited, months ago, my therapist went into “dangerous abuser” mode…he gets a lot of court referrals for abuse cases. He “gets it”.
As I’ve experienced before, God lets me see what I need to see. Him in action at the park concert. Last night, as I drove across town, a few blocks from her house, the stalker (that’s what he is} beside her walking her dog. (I have never driven on her street, past her house, uninvited).
Another lesson learned, hopefully not to be repeated. I have good memories of time with her…I’d love to be wrong about the whole situation.
Time will tell. I have other things now to do that must be done for me and my daughter.
So I’ll say a prayer, utter a faint “towando”, let it go, and go on. Thanks for my friends on Lovefraud.
Back on “Oxy’s road”!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 5:08am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Indiana Jim…
Some peoples choices just dont make sense do they? Who was it, I think it was Kathleen that quoted something like “Im not upset you lied to me, Im disappointed I can never believe/trust you again”…. something like that…
An Abby question tho
… what do you mean when you say you would love to be wrong about the whole situation?? With regard to her choices ? With regard to him? Just as an outsider looking in… she seems to be making choices that allow a bad man to remain in her life. That is something she is going to have to come to terms with/realize on her own.
You are doing the right thing by reacting to the red flag… stopping and changing direction…. My thoughts and prayers are with you as you continue to build friendships and relationships built on honesty and truth…
ps. I dislike learning lessons but I now know its better than to keep repeating the same ole mistakes. You did the right thing for yourself, and hopefully for her… to slow down, stop, and take stock of her words/choices/actions. xoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 9:29am
OxDrover says:
Dear Jim,
I know it hurts when we see someone we care about and respect make some BAAAAAD (in our opinion) choices in their lives that we can pretty well “see” will turn out bad, but they seem oblivious to the DANGER they are walking into.
Just like with my son C when he was dating the X-wife-psychopath. I didn’t for sure know she was anything except “deceptive” but it was a RED FLAG for me–he didn’t see it and spent almost 8 years with that witch!
Your friend does not have the growth and enlightenment that you have, that you WISH she had. It is a darned shame, too, but she has not traveled on that road toward healing, crawled on it, and her wounds and her vulnerabilities are still raw and open.
As much as we would like to, we realize that we cannot save someone else AGAINST THEIR WILLS.
(((((jim))))) and my prayers for your friend as well.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 10:50am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Jim,
I’ve been reading your posts, and feel for you. It’s the standing aside and letting it happen that’s just so hard. It seems like there must be something…
Good luck on your efforts to discover this guy’s background. Maybe you’ll get lucky and find an outstanding warrant for skipping bail on a felony court appearance.
You said you’d like to be wrong. But you know you won’t be. There are just too many puzzle pieces that fit together. The stalking. Her asking for help and then “no wanting to be unkind.” (Can you just imagine the verbal prestidigitation that got her there?) Even the letter calling you a “true friend” a week ago, like a message from the sensible half of her, while the wounded half is getting wrapped up in this spider’s web.
I hate this. I hate it on your behalf. And I hate it for the times I’ve gone through it with people I care about. More than once, even before I knew about sociopaths, I’ve talked to someone else’s boyfriend, on the phone or in person, to tell them he’s not the only one who’s “watching out for her.”
Not that it ever did any good. Because when we get into these things, we become collaborators. When I think about what I did to myself, and what other people I know did to themselves, I can forgive us all. We were needy. We were gullible. But it makes it doubly hard to see the whole thing start up again with someone we care about.
I send you a lot of empathy and him a truckload of karmic banana peels. I hope he gets what he deserves sooner rather than later, and she comes out of it with a nice, little manageable lesson.
Namaste.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 12:07pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Well…I’m beginning to believe in God.
LTL (Abby)…”I’m not upset that you lied to me, I’m upset that from now on I can’t believe you.”
– Frederic Nietzsche
via Kathleen Hawk #11 Trust
I added it to my signature on a local website…got an email from my friend…She explained when she told me it was “solved” she thought it was…then. She and I talked by phone today. He came back. And Thursday and Friday were a big problem for her with him…and she feels embarrassed he showed up…she said she told him he was interfering with her friends…and he came back and keeps coming back…came back while we were on the phone today….
She says she did check him out, court records….people both knew…nothing there.
(The friend I was going to ask in a week or two for his last name…I went to the tennis court last night…he and his daughter were there, and I got the last name…checked out records this morning…nothing. Wonder how we both ended up at the tennis court with his daughter?…never saw him play before….)
She’s not in total denial…knows there’s a big problem…thinks she can’t let others help…she is very private…we’ll see what she’ll accept as help from friends.
If she’ll let us…I know there are a dozen people minimum who would stand by her.
Yeah, I’m supposed to let it go…
I have an appointment with my LCSW 9 am tomorrow…for me…
I will try again,,,she wants to talk to me…doesn’t want to be alone in this….but thinks it is “her problem”…
Maybe,,,maybe not…she’s worth an effort…but I can’t do this forever…
But within the last few days I’ve ended up at places I didn’t plan to be, with people and things I needed to see…I’ve got a good therapist…
There is a little hope…she’s worth it if it’s not against her will..it’s up to her…but she’ll have to make the decision it has to end and do it.
If not…he’ll be back and she’ll be lost for a time…maybe a long one.
Guess I’m not as enlightened as I should be….right, Oxy?
My counselor is pretty harsh when he needs to be. Haven’t seen his skillet yet.
If it works for the best…I’ll be back.
If not, I’ll still be back…LOL…and while previewing…Kathy Hawk, too! Next in the series..”The Futility of Trying to Save Someone Else” a case history…silly Jim!!!
Really, thanks everybody!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 12:20pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
And Donna’s new article on the Betrayal Bond:
“When everyone around you has strong negative reactions, yet you continue covering up, defending or explaining a relationship.”
On Lovefraud…that’s me
In life…that’s my friend
And I was doing so well with my new “chaos free” life!
Pride goes before the fall, and Oxy is hefting her skillets…choosing my proper punishment…
Ain’t life grand! Damn the S’s! TOWANDO!
I’ll survive it , get through it, and go on. Soon. Very soon!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 1:00pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Jim, I just lost a post I wrote to you. But I can condense it.
I don’t think it’s always futile. It depends on the situation.
Your friend isn’t totally enmeshed. She’s at risk, she’s being heavily targeted, but she’s not a goner by any means. She’s still talking to you, which means that she’s still open to outside influence. And her natural alert systems haven’t been entirely shut down.
You know what triangulation is, that’s what’s going on here. You and she can talk about him as though he’s the outsider. He and she can do the same with you or anyone in her life that is not him. Your mission, should you decide to take it on, is to destroy his credibility in a way that doesn’t make you seem like a sociopath. (Because you know that’s what he’s going to charge you with.)
If I were you, I’d track down one of the articles about how to know when you’re being targeted by a sociopath, and pass it on to her with an “I’m concerned about you” message. And if you can find something, anything, in here about how to get rid of them, follow it up with that.
(If not, maybe I’ll write you one about that.)
Good luck with it. If you’re therapist thinks you should respect her privacy, of course, who am I to disagree.
Banana peels.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 1:09pm
Matt says:
Hi, all. Yesterday was the second anniversary of the S’s release from prison. If there is a God in heaven, he will not have a third.
On a much more positive note, things are going well with the new guy. I told a friend the other day that “If I had known how nice it was to date somebody who was good-looking, intelligent, thoughful, kind, financially responsible, employed and not on probation, why, I would have done it years ago!” This guy is a 180 from S.
It is such a nice feeling to wake up and not feel like I’m walking on eggshells. It’s such a nice feeling for him to call me instead of just me chasing him. And it’s such a nice feeling to be with somebody who actually wants to spend time with me.
Now that the romance part of my life has turned around, I can only hope that the employment part will follow suit.
OxDrover:
Congrats on the settlement. As for the barn-burning, what a beautiful symbol of purification — the flames consuming the S and/or the detrius therof!
Jim — if you want to do some more poking around on the suspected S, try running variations on names and initials on him. When I did that with my S it was like I opened pandora’s box.
All this new-found knowledge of our’s regarding what an S is all about sometimes makes our lives difficult. I have a friend who is in really deep with an S. And like your friend she doesn’t want to hear it — she has a million reasons why he isn’t one. I’ve had to take the position that when she finally stops suffering from cranial-rectal inversion (head up her ass) I’ll be available to help her. But, until then, all I can do is stand by and watch the destruction take place. Not a good feeling.
On the other hand, I have gotten better about drawing the lines with a former friend who I cut off awhile back because the drama quotient in her life is off the charts because she refuses to take her psych meds. I ran into her on the street the other day and she managed to get my new phone number out of me. Then she said “And I really need to talk to you about the situation.” The situation is her self-created craziness and drama. At that point I simply cut it off and went on my way. Don’t want to get sucked in. Don’t have any patience for someone who knows what they have to do to move their life forward (take meds) and really don’t have any patience for someone who thrives on drama.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 1:37pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Kathy…my therapist, when he heard about the stalking, wasn’t too interested in privacy issues…he was writing down the names and phone numbers at victim’s assistance and the prosecutor’s office.
Don’t worry about him…I don’t. Up until lately I think I was the only non-disordered person (his diagnosis) he got to see every few months.
And if she can’t be helped, he is entitled to one “I told you so” from a year ago (long before the toxic stalker appeared)and I didn’t know much about her.
“Sociopath” might not work for her. “Stalker” can’t be denied.
Apparently he’s a pathetic, lonely, pity play type…which enttitles him to steal her empathy and peace…whenever he wants.
A triangle won’t work without three sides. Somebody has to say “This ain’t working for me!” She’ll have to, and soon, or I will. If I do, I’ll lose a friend for a while. She’ll only be able to play in my world if she doesn’t bring him along. If he “shows up” when I’m there…I’m gone!
At least I’ll have peace.
Nothing to lose in sending the article then…soon.
My responsibility is to me first…I’ve wasted half my life in Oz, where the evil ones play. 25 years with the Devil’s sister…I’m not afraid…but I want a good life for me, too. The chaos is at her place. I can take my ball, go home, and not answer the door, phone, or emails. If she can’t do what needs to be done, I will, for me.
Banana peels…he’s a hog farmer…probably walks right over slippier stuff, and other’s boundaries, like that, all day!
Oxy got any free hogs to give away? I’ll tell him he has to be there by midnight!
And previewing…Matt…thanks. I know what you mean…cranial inversion. And I won’t be able to stand around and watch. I’m not in a long-term contract as a bit-player in this soap opera!
This is my last episode with the current cast! Diminishing returns for me without somebody who needs to be pulling out the miracle. Otherwise, a passive investment with no long term gains certain. Maybe I can sell some S default swaps to hedge me on the outcome? Lots of us suckers out there!
And Matt…aliases, etc…tried a few locally. Last name isn’t Garcia, or Jones…but it’s a close contender…Smith…unless that’s a recent acquisition.
Nothing’s simple anymore. Too many people…WAAAY too many S-classes on the road…the next “bubble” to burst…or it did.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 2:08pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Jim and Betty:
I would also caution if NOTHING comes up on a person.during a search…if they are too ‘invisible’ this could be a red flag…..
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 2:22pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Erin…I know…need more “intelligence”, etc. I hate to pay for it, but will if I have to. I can’t believe the stalking and pity habits appeared at 50+ without a brain clot event…it wasn’t massive enough if that’s the case.
Hope I get more help tomorrow…I got a deadline…my life!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 2:31pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Matt:
I am ecstatic for you!!! We all deserve a person that is good to us……
Take it slow, remember what you have learned adn don’t get ahead of yourself!!!
I’m thrilled your back in the field!!!
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 2:45pm
sabrina says:
Can we add to the N commandments:
“If I have a porno internet addiction, it is YOUR FAULT because YOU insisted to pay to have internet access!
(You shoulda known better!)
” If I abuse your defenseless animals, it is YOUR FAULT because YOU insisted to have the pesky thing around me!
(You shoulda known better!)
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 3:23pm
greenfern says:
eyeswideshut suggested an additional commandment:
“YOU must accept that my mistakes are not mistakes, but that I have simply been persecuted by others because they envy my obvious superiority over them.”
If I could add to that; You must accept that when I make a mistake (even if it’s very hurtful and detrimental) it’s part of being a human, in the other hand if it’s you making the mistake count on never being able to be able to live it up.
The s I was with constantly quoted famous people like Rumi about life. It makes me sick. He also put on his myspace that he admires people who are not afraid to fail repeatedly. It funny though, he was so uber-judgmental about everyone, except himself. When he was shown to be a failure; he wrote it off as a positive attribute or a proof that he did not conform to society. He loved feeling like he was above it all.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 3:46pm
OxDrover says:
Jim, darlilng, I am so glad you are taking CONTROL OF YOUR life, but also trying to HELP (NOT ENABLE) your friend.
I am not even getting the skillet out for you sweetie, I am soooo proud of you for doing the RIGHT THING even if it HURTS.
Unfortunately, that is what life is all about, what maturity is all about is DOING THE RIGHT THING EVEN WHEN IT HURTS. I still think your friend is “needy” and wants at the same time to ‘depend on herself” (which of course are contradictions) and she is being pulled in by HER CARETAKING NEED TO “HELP THE DOWNTRODDEN”….. and I don’t really see this guy as “down trodden” but DOWN TROD-ING (I just made up that word, but it fits! LOL)
I too am setting boundaries in my life by distancing myself from drama queens, not even talking to othem about their drama if I must be around them CHANGING THE SUBJECT which actually pisses them off and makes me NOT INTERESTING to them if I don’t go along with my scripted responses to their game of “oh, ain’t it awful!”
Some times, even here on LF people will come on with “drama” and want to continually play “oh, ain’t it awful” (which indeed it may BE awful, but if you keep hitting yourself i nthe thumb with the HAMMER, at some point, I am going to get tired TERMINALLY TIRED of how bad your thumb hurts! and pull out the SKILLET and BOINK someone.)
However, Jim, I am NOT seeing the hammer in your hand, and so you are not going to get a BOINKING from me, I think you are handling this in a VERY MATURE AND RATIONAL AND CARING WAY. You are doing what you CAN do and not trying to ENABLE her or FIX HER, but to H-E-L-P her, but if she refuses your help and starts banging herself in the thumb with the hammer you will distance yourself. (hugs)))
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 3:50pm
greenfern says:
Sabrina said:
“If I have a porno internet addiction, it is YOUR FAULT because YOU insisted to pay to have internet access!”
Or …it’s your fault because you have failed to mold to my fantasy woman picture in my head. I squeezed and brainwashed you as much as I could, tried undermining your sense of self, make all my thoughts your rules to live by; yet you keep insisting having your own personality you stupid imbecile woman. I look at porn because you are not willing to cooperate with my fantasy. I no longer find you attractive, the potential success molding you to the image in my head is gone, and I just want to throw you away. It’s all your fault and you should be ashamed for being who you are!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 4:04pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Regarding the triangulation, Jim, I actually was thinking that you could use it. I didn’t view it as a bad thing.
No question, eventually you’d want to resign, if the situation didn’t change. It just makes me hopeful that she talks to you about him. And also that you’re so sensitive about the level of information that she can handle. Now, if there were just some way to make this guy really look like her ex, she might figure the rest of it out for herself.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 4:05pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Thanks, Oxy, Kathleen, everybody. My fingers are tired, my brain is shot, and I’ll need to leave the building. I’ll see what tomorrow brings, bounce it off my therapist (he might even suggest I’m being “played”), ask if I need “meds” for mild (or severe) depression, and then make some decisions and stand by them. Went to bed at midnight, woke up 4:30 am , another day for ME lost. Someone else out there is creating the chaos, I can choose to leave it behind if I have to.
I’m going for a long walk. I turned down an offer for a ood tennis match because I didn’t want to leave.
Kathleen…triangulation idea…maybe if I get the chance and figure out how to do it.
I can’t sacrifice myself in this drama. I won’t feed it. It’s in my head and heart now…thank god it doesn’t live in my house!
Elvis has left the blogroom…back in three miles. 80 degrees, sunny, light breeze…that’s the world I’ll choose to live in. And a TOWANDO! at the end…I did what I could…good epitaph for my tombstone, urn, or compost pile, right?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 4:32pm
blueskies says:
Hi ) loving Jims idea of a nice long walk(except its nearly midnight here) Jim I think you are wonderful:)
Had a literally breath taking attack from MY egg donor (I think oxy’s term is suddenly soo fittingx:) because she has realised I am not playing anymore, wow talk about the mask slipping… she has all by herself displayed in full glorious technicolour her true narc (yes doc, I think we can tick every box) all by herself. I didnt have to do a thing except for withdraw from the game to expose it. I am feeling like I’ve been in a punch up (I havent though), or like that weak sobby aftermath of a big cry, but its okay. Coming here and reading your posts and discussions (sorry no brain left- not much to start with- to comment) is like shuffling into a kitchen full of close friends deep in conversation to kiss g’night before I crash. Thanks just for being there:)x
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 6:18pm
newlife08 says:
MATT MATT !!!!
YEAH YAHOO WOW TERRIFIC YIPEE!!!!!!
So glad you are seeing someone who can really appreciate you.
You deserve it – all you give here and all other areas of your life you describe .
Go slow, enjoy, keep your senses sharp and expect only the best treatment for yourself !!!!
Keep us clued in on how it is going …
there may be hope for us all……..
always said I never wanted to die without being loved …….
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 8:34pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
blueskies…glad you’re here, and thanks. The walk helped some. I’m not usually into “scorekeeping” with friends…but I stooped to adding up costs and benefits…quick and dirty…I’m running a severe deficit, I think.
I have to add in a whole lot of altruistic/emotional/caring/rationalization mumbo-jumbo value to come close to “balancing the books” over the past year.
It is an odd “friendship”. Being a “lunch buddy” sucks.
I’m not a “Prince Charming”, Sold the horse. To my relief, I don’t think I’m “Prince Harming” (ltl credit) either. I’m me. I know some of what I am, am sure of what I am not, and see what more I should be,,,except I got stuck and slipped backward.
But, since I’m dealing with a predator in the game…all take, no give (fake give to increase take)…and a victim who swings back and forth…I can’t afford to lose much more…even if “just a stalker” I’m at a disadvantage…I am honor-bound, promise-trussed, and unable to cross two peoples’ boundaries-mine and my friend’s.
And I’m pretty sure now nobody will get “saved” for long.
And a few things don’t add up at all, yet.
NO CONTACT…the only proven anti-FOG formula.
The counselor in the morning…and a decision. I’m harming myself and my journey, spending energy I need to be responsible to myself and life.
And the last conversation with my friend today, how it ended, and where it left me…in the FOG with no feedback all day…ruminating, doubting…drained.
I’ll pay attention to me now…save myself…all I can do.
So I have some good memories…a glimpse at a nice and good person…I can’t figure it out. File the emails. Print and burn a few. Let time heal my wounds. Pray for my good friend.
I did what I could with what I have. Not enough yet. I’ve shortchanged my family and myself, and didn’t answer what life is asking of me.
And God…yeah, he’s still there…maybe I misinterpreted the lesson in this for me…he’ll make sure I et it in the end, I’m sure.
Whew….as Kris Kristofferson said: “The lovin’ was easy…it’s the living that’s hard”
I hope I make sense to somebody…I think Oxy and Kathleen Hawk are my friends….and I know I’m not them….they make sense! LOL
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 9:18pm
Rosa says:
Indiana Jim:
“I’ll see what tomorrow brings, bounce it off my therapist (he might even suggest I’m being “played”)…
You make it sound like this is a crazy notion. I am a female, so I am going to give you some insight into the female psyche (mine). It’s NOT outside the realm of possibility. She could, in fact, be “playing” you.
I have seen it before. The woman is attracted to the toxic man. And yet, she wants the care and concern of the good man. She wants to have her cake and eat it, too.
It seems like she’s telling you just enough to let you know that she is aware that she is involved with a bad man. Still, she is being very private about it, and considers it “her problem”. At the same time, she continues to talk to you about it, and “doesn’t want to be alone in this”????
These are very contadictory points of view.
Again, she wants it both ways.
Why are you taking on the task of doing background checks on this man? That’s HER job, not yours. She’s the one in the relationship with this guy, not you.
I am a female. From my own experiences with these types of situations, if you try to “show” this woman that she is involved with a bad man, it will backfire. At best, the effect will be marginal. She has to come out of the FOG, if she is really in it, on her own. Trying to facilitate the process will only make you look weak and desperate to a woman.
AND YOU ARE NEITHER WEAK NOR DESPERATE. Do not allow yourself to get sucked into this!!!!!!
I stand by my original post to your original post.
You are doing the right thing by being a friend to this woman, and helping her if/when she needs it.
Don’t waste your time digging up dirt on this guy. You could be playing tennis!!! Tennis is AWESOME for clearing your head and getting your mind off of your problems.
Personally, I think you can do better than this woman.
Life goes by in a minute. You don’t have time for this. But you already know that, don’t you?
P.S. I am sensitive about this “love triangle” scenario, because my toxic boyfriend used to do it to me ALL OF THE TIME. And when I would find out about the “other girl”, he would act like an innocent lamb, and put all of the blame on the girl.
But, we all know that IT TAKES 2 TO TANGO!!!
P.S.S. You gave me a man’s perspective once when I was struggling with a decision, and it had an impact on me. I wanted to return the favor. I hope I helped, even if it was just a little.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 6 July 2009 @ 10:17pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Rosa-yes, I think I already know. Thanks, it helps a lot. I’m lglad I have friends here like you to help me work it out. The first time I met with my counselor, he described me as a “fixer”, not necessarily in a bad way…but. And three years later, here I am again, in that old routine, while life passes me by.
What’s that Einstein quote Oxy brings out about doing the same things expecting a different result…insanity? I let myself get sucked in to the chaos and drama, and am contributing to it…insanity!
Time to stop it. Really let it go. My friend will have to save herself, if she even wants to. I can’t do it for her. I lost myself in the game…time to get off the drama stage and go home where it’s safe.
Thanks again, everybody!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 5:00am
Spirit40 says:
OMG…..I’m new here and speechless…. Let me think of my favorite thing he said to me… oh I remember saying … put your self in my shoes what would you do…. He said “well I’m HOT so you should do anything you can to keep me!!!!! LOL Thats when after all most 23 years knew it just was not right.
Oh and I going to be an overweight, single mother who dosent find anyone …..
Am I supposed to believe hat… Oh and Im going to end up one of those miserable old ladies with a bunch of Cats…..
I happen to like cats , not that many but… he HATES Dobermans .. I think Ill get rid of HIS DOG…. who bit my son(our Son) hate to admit that… and kept the dog… I like Dobermans, I may get one!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 5:11am
Spirit40 says:
Another comment I have… I think this was gaslighting oh his part… I did not realize when I found this blog and shouted omg your a sociopath…. he and our son looked …at the site lovefraud and started laughing….. like somehow this site was stupid and he is not a sociopath/narccisst ….. I have been open and honest with my son who is 12 I think he is more like me I hope he does show feelings… any advice on raising a child after the jerk is gone??
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 5:19am
Spirit40 says:
My response…… to this is a great one for me….
You must understand what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine too. Do not expect me to share finances with you equally. Do expect me to hide funds, treat myself well and perhaps contribute a meager amount to the household.
Yes I found his second account which he claims has no money in it…. his response well I had to you said you were going to kick me out…. not working, drinking watching movies while I work, go to school, pay all the bills….
Well I sold the car that I bought (he lost his license) dont sell it cause I built that car……manipulation oh we need two cars so I can get to work… excuses excuses…
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 5:30am
akitameg says:
Hello and I m sorry for not writing in weeks t my Lovefraud Fam.
First of all– who wrote the above? It was emailed to me and I just cannot believe it’s “perfectness” in describing my ex.
I have begun a new nob— very demanding and busy-
work with dementia residents and i am trying to bring light, love and happiness to this center.
I do miss you guys- I just never have time– while beginning this job (have walked into a messed up department).
Love to all of you an this Commandment List amazes me.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 5:42am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Spirit40…welcome. Welcome to the club…sorry you have to be here, glad you found it. Parenting…often discussed. On the left of this page…blogroll…Parenting the At Risk Child. There was recently an article Co-parenting with a Psychopath or maybe Sociopath…if he’s still around. Read the articles…don’t try to read all the comments yet. This is a good place.
akitameg…good to see you…if the “above” you ask about is the original list, Steve Becker, of course. Conratulations on the new job! Got time to sing?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 6:50am
Spirit40 says:
Thank you Jim in Indiana…. I kept making the same mistakes now I see and am here to learn about them not make them again in the future… Thank you ! again.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 6:53am
Spirit40 says:
I don’t understand how… he could say… Everybody likes me how come? no one likes you!… Because you have everyone fooled!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:04am
Spirit40 says:
When I tell his family I know who he is now… they say oh he’s an alcoholic… its just a mask.. why are families in such denial ?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:15am
nottakingitanymore says:
Here are some from my experience:
I never do anything wrong. It is always someone else’s fault.
BUT… if it is possible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have done something wrong, then it is minor compared to the horrible crime that you have now committed of pointing it out to me and making me feel bad about it. You are a horrible person for pointing out that I did something wrong. How dare you! What I did wrong pales in comparison to the evil of you calling attention to it.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:19am
nottakingitanymore says:
Some more favorites:
YOU need therapy. (You must, because you have disagreed with me.)
The reason the kids from my first marriage turned out badly is because my first wife was a bad mother. The reason the kids from my second marriage turned out well is because I am a good father.
I do everything for you and yet you complain. I take you on vacations that revolve around my fascinating hobbies and you don’t appreciate it. I take your money and buy expensive furniture that I like and that I think will impress other people who are more important to me than you are, and you don’t understand that I did it for you, that somehow this was a big sacrifice for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:29am
kate09 says:
These r all SO true.. As I read this it was like someone was describing my husband.. The you must always know what I want without asking & say what u want without me asking. Sorry I can’t read minds. Everything they do wrong is nothing compared 2 how YOU mess up. They search 4 perfection when they r NOT perfect.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:43am
kate09 says:
Spirit40,
There families r in such denial because they do not want 2 take responsibility 4 the way they have turned out.. Or they do not want 2 have 2 sand up to the narc or help them.. My husbands mom always says 2 me ” I didn’t raise him 2 b that way.” I want 2 say 2 her that is the problem.. He was not raised! He was abused not loved.. I feel like my husband’s family does not care hoe he abuses me or the children.. But when he shows HER no respect she gets angry. Selfishness is taught!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:54am
Spirit40 says:
I agree he was abused and not loved…. and It makes me angry.. I barely know these people, but they will have little contact if any with my son….they are not his biological family good bad or indifferent…
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:19am
expathie says:
Sounds just like a cult leader! Actually, these Are the attributes of a cult leader!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:22am
DJhere2 says:
Brilliant! Wonderful! Perfect! Explained to a tee! Thanks for a good laugh this morning! I needed that! You MUST be neurotic if you don’t agree with all of the many commandements! Sounds reasonable!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:26am
Spirit40 says:
I remember him saying the following things…
Oh you wanna wear the pants!… (well someone has to work this is me).
Lead, follow,or get out the way….
I’m LEADING my OWN way now! you get out of my way
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:53am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
It’s a new day. Decisions made. Things will be good.
Thanks
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 9:42am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Jim,
I just caught your last long post above, and I want to apologize (my stuff, you’re not responsible in any way) for talking as though you could just go in there and manipulate the situation and create a happy ending. Maiden is rescued. Dragon shambles off to find another village to terrorize. Sometimes I get a little carried away with “I can do anything and so can you” brain chemicals.
I was wrong. First, because I wasn’t listening to you when you were talking about the need to manage your own boundaries. Second, because my brain slid over the hints that your relationship with this woman is largely a helping one (you give, she takes), though it might be pleasant and/or helpful in your own recovery process. My helping relationships have been like that, helpful in getting myself clearer, but eventually they all show me that I need to get better boundaries, if I’m going to create a life for myself, rather than avoid my own life by fixing other people.
And what I really wasn’t responding to was your distress about this whole thing. That it was hurting you. I’m so quick on the draw with solutions — another one of my weakness, because I overreact to other people’s pain and then can’t just be a supportive friend while they figure out their own solutions.
This is a long mea culpa, which is, like most apologies, about me, me, me. But at the end of it, I want to say that I do respect what you were feeling. Just having something like this happening in your personal circle, when you have your own problems with a raging N/S/P squatting in your life, is bad enough. The fact that it’s happening with someone who was arguably using you, because her needs happened to be greater than yours (or that’s how the relationship seems from here, and I’ve lived through a lot of these), just makes it so much stickier.
I’m glad you’re taking care of yourself. Everything you wrote in that letter sounds so lucid and so right. Figuring out where to invest our energy, or reevaluating a current investment in terms of what we’re getting back from it, is work. Compassion (empathy from a healthy psychological distance) helps us make those decisions without hardening ourselves. It sounds like all that is going on with you.
Thank you for thinking I’m a friend. I feel the same way about you. And from you I get what I love about friendships. Insights I can apply to my own life by watching other people live theirs.
Namaste.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 10:59am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Kathleen…another one went into the ethernet black hole…
Thanks for your help. I met with my LCSW this morning. I think it’s resolved for me…I may be able to say more after I process it…wasn’t fun, but I participated, so…onward, upward, or down the road…no other choice.
You never need to apologize.
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 12:12pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jim,
Rosa has some good points. The “triangulation” that your friend is trying to get you involved in may be the “game” she is playing (unawares) and she is wanting on one level to hook up with this guy that on a primal level she knows is bad (but familiar) and she is going to use this “drama triangle” (there are a couple of threads here about this drama triangle of VICTIM-PERSECUTOR-RESCUER, and she has herself in the “victim” chair, with the guy as the “persecutor,” and you installed in the “rescuer” chair.
As you try to ‘rescue” her, from him, she will then change chairs and put HIM in the “victim” chair (you meanie you, persecuting him) and you in the “persecutor” chair and HERSELF into the “rescuer” chair when she “rescues” this poor guy pitiful guy from the meanie Jim. Then Rinse and repeat, and change chairs when he knocks the crap out of her front teeth.
Yep, I think Rosa is right—Eric Bern, PhD, has summed all this up in “Games People Play” quite nicely.
I fall into this “triangle” game easily if I don’t watch myself, too, Jim, in my desires to want to “help” people—-and I think that desire to help others can get us into big trouble and get us into playing this game of “musical chairs” with the V-P-R game.
Opting out of the game completely is the only way to survive these situations….BOINK to ME for not seeing this sooner, but “Pat Pat” to me for finally seeing this one for what it is. I think you caught on before I idid—thanks, ROSA for pointing it out! (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 12:31pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…yeah…my LCSW said, in the course of things…didn’t you read Games Divorced People Play? I said, yes…He said: “You might want to go back and read it again!”
I think he was talking about Bern’s book, not Berke and Grants, which I’ve read.
I’ve seen that triangle and explanatiion…on paper…and…I heard it from him this morning.
He’s really pretty good at what he does.
Thanks
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 1:44pm
OxDrover says:
The DRAMA TRIANGLE is such a SIMPLE concept, and it is so difficult for those of us that want to be “fixers” to grasp in real life!
From the descriptions you give of your x-tox and the games she plays i think she is the POSTER CHILD for “Games People Play.” I think I have heard of the games DIVORCED people play book, but not read it. I do highly recommend Berne’s book, though.
I find myself referring to the “games” from time to time to remind myself to QUIT TRYING TO FIX things….and it is a fine line between helping and fixing. I work hard on helping others rather than trying to fix them.
I think the difference is (just my own outlook) is that if you give a bum on teh street a dollar, when he goes to the liquor store across the street you don’t get mad. You just shrug it off and in the future when he tries to get money you just don’t give him any money, and AND you do NOT lecture him on why you don’t give him any money.
A friend of mine had a kid who used to run out of couches to sleep on and he would show up here hungry and beg me to feed him, cause he hadn’t eaten in 3 days, and I would feed him but would tell him that he had to work for me for so long to pay for his meal. Once he took off after he ate and the next time he showed up and had not eaten, I made him WORK FIRST BEFORE I FED him, for the meal he “cheated me” out of prior and then to work and pay for the meal he got that day.
I made him work 4 hours for each meal he ate here. I know that is pretty steep a price, but I figured if it was easier to work here and eat than to get a job he would hang out here, as it was, if he wanted to stay here and eat 3 x a day, he had to work 12 hours, and believe me I could find 12 hours of BACK BREAKING LABOR for him to do inorder to get 3 meals and a cot. So he usually only stayed a couple of days until somehow he would find some where else to go. LOL I think the county penal farm would be easier labor than I made it here for him.
I also took in a teenaged son of some friends who got suspended from school for minor crap, and after the second time of working at “Oxy’s penal colony” he did NOT want to come back for teh third trip….After the first trip he thought it was a lark, the second trip, he had to pay me $20 for room and board for 3 days, go to bed at 6.p.m. and get up at 6 and no TV, video games, etc. and sleep on the floor. I told him if he came back for the 3rd trip, uit was $100, an orange jump suit, sleep in the barn (hot or freezing I didn’t care) one blanket, bread and water, and that I had enough men around here that we would take him down and shave his head—he was so proud of his hair! He complained to his father after the second ttrip about the “beastly conditions” of sleeping on the floor and no TV,. but I think he BELIEVED ME about the terms of the thrid trip—there WAS NO third trip! LOL
Jim your LCSW sounds like a good guy! It does help to have a reality check doesn’t it!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 3:08pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…LOL…three squares a day and a cot…12 hours labor? Got any openings? No smoking, right? No internet or TV? No games? Exercise, sunshine, cure all my addictions in one retreat? People pay a lot of money for that….unless they’re willing to commit serious felonies and wait for the wheels of justice! I could be there at midnight tomorrow night…wait, bad idea!
In the silver lining category…for a week I’ve had an off-and-on, more on than not…killer pain in the left side of my back. Thought it was from overexertion on the tennis court a week ago. My legs recovered more quickly than usual…but this was worse…asked my Dr. daughter Sunday if pleuresy could be localized in one area like that…had it once years ago, She said it could be.
Reached a decision last night on my dilemma…woke up this morning…it’s gone! Yeah, I know…stress…less of that in reality when you find it.
TOWANDO!
Jim, going for a walk…
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 3:42pm
Spirit40 says:
Why is it when you have proof they deny it with a straight face, or avoiding by saying I didnt check my email, or if I didnt get caught it never happened???
I’m not sure if the threats are real or not… he left us with no money and got mad when I sold the jeep that I bought and paid for….how else were we to survive?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 4:19pm
Warrior says:
Very enlightening and kick-ass comments here–thank you all! I’ve included some more commandments, which may overlap with a few already stated.
YOU must have a stable career with benefits with which to finance my extravagances and other women while you have to live on a fairly tight budget. Don’t worry that large chunks of money seem to disappear; that money will help me survive after you’ve caught on to what type of person I am and before I latch onto my next victim.
YOU must be willing to work the nine-to-five job so that I can play around freely and without care while you are hard at work during the day so that I can pretend to be the man you think I am during the nights.
YOU must be willing to hand over any money earned for any investment (hair-brained or not) that I consider important so that it increases my visibility and social standing. You will be happy with the fact that I don’t give you any credit for making this happen.
YOU must be willing to uproot yourself from your comfortable and familiar surroundings just because I want to isolate you from your friends and family so that the manipulation is easier and more complete.
YOU must accept that I will call you not by your given name, but “sweetie,” “baby,” or “gorgeous” (in whatever language) because I certainly would not want to call out anyone of my other women’s names during an especially sensitive moment.
YOU must be willing to accept that I will not introduce you to many people when we are in a social situation; I’m only doing it for YOUR protection (no, I am not worried that people will tell you what I am really like).
YOU must not ask where I got my expensive clothing or jewelry; where they come from does not matter, how I look matters.
There are so many more out there, but I’ll stop for now. Thanks again.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 4:31pm
jfog1 says:
Hi everyone,
It has been a while since I have been able to sit down and read the blogs, and I really enjoyed the “Commandments” by Steve and all who wrote.
Slimone, you wrote about walking to the bathroom at night and not looking sexy enough. I was told that I walked like I had a corn cob up my skinny ass and that there was nothing about me that was sexy. This was his way of justifying his multiple flings. My self esteem was so low that I was excerising daily, looking into getting my stetch marks from my pregnancies removed. He knew about how I looked before we married. He said” baby that is where your babies lived. I think your tummy is beautiful”. After we married he would look at me with such disgust that I wanted to cry. Of course, there was no sex to speak of. I didn’t excite him.
As of this moment, he has another victim, or victims. He is still doing everything he can to keep me from being able to sell the house to retrieve the downpayment that I made on it.
He lies every time I have to email and ask anything. My attorney is no help. When I told him that my N/P had taken all of the appliances out of the house as well as other items that belonged with the house, the attorney said that it wouldn’t do much good to try and get anything for them.
It has been like this for the past year. Sometimes I think that he works for my soon to be ex.
My N/P fits almost all of the descriptions that you all wrote about.
Take care and hugs to all.
Janet
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 4:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear janet,
I am so sorry you are going through all this unnecessary crap, it is bad enough, and then they have to make it worse. Just for the fun of it. UGGGGH!!! May the fleas of 1000 camels inhabit his arm pits and the crabs of a 100 ho’s live in his crotch!
Hang in there, sweetie, and keep coming here and reading the articles and the blogs….KNOWLEDGE IS POWER and the more you learn, the more you are validated, the easier it will get (I promise!!!) Come here and SCREAM if you need to!!!
Let us know when your divorce is final, and remember, whatevert it costs you, it is cheap at TWICE the price to get rid of that human cancer!!!! ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for you!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:00pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Spirit,
The deny, deny, deny, and lie, lie, lie is SOP (standard operating procedure) with the psychopath, they will “lie when the truth would fit better.”
The way you can tell if they are lying is THEIR MOUTH IS MOVING….or an email or text is coming in. REMEMBER, IT IS A LIE, THEY ARE THE LIE—-don’t believe a word they say, even if you have proof it is true. If they tell you the sky is blule, remember it is NOT BLUE, or if it is blue, it is still in their interest to use it to cheat you some way.
THEY HAVE NO CONSCIENCE
THEY DO NOT/DID NOT AND WILL NOT EVER LOVE YOU
YOU CANNOT PLEASE THEM
IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT (as far as they are concerned)
THE TRUTH IS NOT IN THEM
YOU CANNOT TRUST THEM====EVER
YOU ARE NOT CRAZY
THEY ARE MEAN, UGLY, HATEFUL, LYING SACKS OF CHIT!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:08pm
Spirit40 says:
no contact, how can you have no contact when all their crap is still in your apartment? HELP please a newbie ….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:24pm
Spirit40 says:
Thank you! 23 years and I read somewhere earlier how , and he told me this he chose me, then he chose to get me pregnant…. this is from another article …
“Impregnating the woman is a classic method of “controlling” and “binding” her down. The narcissistic psychopath aware of the shallowness and transience of his own simulated emotions – attributes the same fleetingness to his partner. Saddled with a baby, she is unlikely to vanish on him.”
well after 23 years I would like to vanish and he is not seeing my son without supervision!… my son adores him I wonder why…. I dont think my son is like him… he has empathy and feelings I hope….
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:28pm
Spirit40 says:
Thank you Oxdrover !
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:29pm
Spirit40 says:
He hates when I interupt him… because its all bulls–t that I hear…its only been a couple days since he has been out and all his things are here. I am not a storage facility, get all your things out all at once I want to be over it, I go through bouts of how stupid could I be… I see all the lies…. flirting with people right in front of my face like I didnt exsist while Im standing right next to him… even with the landlord who is another one… for all I know she is the next one and then there is his “friend” … who he is staying with a male friend…… UHHH
I hate him for using me for this long and all I really want to do is dump his stuff in the dumpster or have a bon fire on the front lawn
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:34pm
slimone says:
Janet,
I want to add my sympathy to Oxy’s. What a bunch of crap you are having to endure. Would a new attorney be in order, if the one you have is being so useless? I don’t know if you were just being snarky. But if you feel like he ‘works for your ex’, this may be your guts trying to tell you that you are really not getting your legal needs met?
As for being sexy……they don’t know poop about sexy. Look at Christy Brinkley and that loser she divorced. Hey, show me a supermodel/Beyonce look-alike and I’ll show you someone a N/S/P will grow bored, jealous, critical, and spiteful toward.
I have, though I am not so proud of it– as it is a matter of truth about me, invested a lot of my self-worth into how I look. I was a child model and hated it, but also got hooked into being ‘pretty’. So these kinds of comments cut particularly deep. So what does one believe? The part of what they told us that was affirming and felt good (Like your ex. loving your tummy cause that is where you held your babies), or the crappy stuff (like not being sexy when you pee–HA! that cracks me up now!)
I know now, as Oxy said, that if their lips are moving (or fingers are typing) they are concocting lies.
This has confused me this idea of them always lying, or manipulating. Because what about when I was told I was ‘yummy’ or ‘cute’ or ‘beautiful’? Is that a lie?
Here’s what I figure:
Still a lie. I don’t actually think they register individual beauty, cuteness, kindness, etc…..these are just words used to get under our skins, to infiltrate our lives. They are not real observations about us, our looks, our ’self’. I do not believe they are discerning about what makes each person uniquely appealing/sexy/amazing and lovable. They are just as off-handed about their ‘evaluations’ of others as they are about anything else. Just as impulsive and reactive.
And I don’t think it’s that they ‘don’t’ differentiate, it seems to me they can’t.
So this is why I have chosen to throw all of it out. All the comments. ‘Good’ and ‘bad’, all get the same mental treatment from me. I do best to treat the ex. as he has ‘treated’ me. No discernment, all of it goes into the trash heep of history. The difference for me, for us, I suppose is we CAN see the details of their behavior, and learn and grow. We are not fated to wash, rinse, repeat.
Remember the behaviors that are part of our toolbox of future identification and self-protection. THROW OUT the words. Those are useless lies.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 7:59pm
James says:
“I hate him for using me for this long and all I really want to do is dump his stuff in the dumpster or have a bon fire on the front lawn”
Thanks for that comment, oh how I almost forgot that period with “her” stuff BS.
I think they do this just so they can keep in touch to turn the knife a little more. Or they know (really I don’t know if they do or not) how much we want them to be gone it’s pleasure for them just to call and ask us about their stuff. Well for me it’s been 3 yrs of NC and I don’t have any of her BS stuff today!
Anyway Spirit40 thanks for the chuckers! And yes you are right you and we aren’t a storage for their stuff
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:08pm
justabouthealed says:
jfog1—-I could start another list….all the things I changed about myself to “win” his approval.
It is an embarrassing list.
Includes taking on a new part time job
lazer to get rid of veins showing
laughing more
talking less
taking up a new hobby
wearing high heels
teeth braces
exercising
losing 30 pounds, even after the doc said losing more weight would be dangerous
I could go on and on, but you get the idea. I’m mostly back to normal now.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:45pm
justabouthealed says:
Slimone wrote ” I don’t actually think they register individual beauty, cuteness, kindness, etc…..these are just words used to get under our skins, to infiltrate our lives. They are not real observations about us, our looks, our ’self’. I do not believe they are discerning about what makes each person uniquely appealing/sexy/amazing and lovable. ”
Amen to that. Mine would go on and on about how beautiful someone was, to make himself look good, and then I would see the photo he would show me and I was thinking “Huh?” (not that attractive)
Aliens!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 8:49pm
slimone says:
JAH,
Plus, as someone pointed out on another thread, sometime back, they are just plain ole’ sexual. Man, boy, girl, woman, big, small, deformed, in a coma, stripper, queen, waiter, bum. They want what they want when they want it, and will turn to any source that suits them in the moment. We are all in one big pot of human soup for them– and when they are hungry any bit they spoon up will do.
I say this only because when we are repeating their ridiculous assessments of us in our heads we need to tell the liars to buzz off. So we can make HONEST and discerning assessments of ourselves.
It just isn’t about ‘not being enough’ (pretty, motivated, rich, successful, loving, kind……). It is about what they want when they want it. Plain and simple. And if what they want is to make you feel like crap about yourself so they can feel the thrill of ‘victory’, then they say whatever serves that end.
Let us all pass wind, and scratch our behinds when getting up in the night to pee……
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 7 July 2009 @ 9:33pm
Spirit40 says:
I should have known when he emailed his “female” friend..before we moved yet again… she is way attractive… he was setting it up ahead of time. I guess I foiled the plan when I read his emails… how dare I invade his privacy…..who knows what happened btwn them I really dont care. She is a single attractive mother , who knew we have the same birthday… I warned her via email hope she gets it or maybe she was into it all along ??
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 7:51am
Escapee says:
JAH
Been away for a bit.
Liked your list – read like mine –
Yup -Took on more and more work (all the veiled remarks about ‘earning pin money’ and ‘are you a little bit more ambitious now?’ (to live up to his expectations of what? So he could fleece me for paying for even more)
Yup – high heals
Yup – had my teeth whitened
Yup – lost weight (even though I weighed less that 112lbs and am 5′6″)
Yup and I could go on too
And what for?
To make myself bearly acceptable to this adonis? Who looked like what?
Short, bald, pot bellied, broken teeth, skinny legs
Arrogant prat!
What was I thinking?
I also ruined myself financially.
Who DO they think they are?
Yes, It is embarrassing – never again!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 10:30am
Spirit40 says:
Hmmm broken teeth you dont live in FL do you???? cept mine wasnt short
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 10:39am
Escapee says:
Spirit40
Nah! In the UK….. short/tall – fat/skinny – Western/Eastern – whateverdom! There’s no formula for spotting them is there? Just have to take the lessons we’ve learned and have some faith in our own intuition.
As for the ’setting them up way ahead of time’ – this seems to be a common pattern of behaviour. I called them his ‘back burner’ women. First saw the pattern in action (well got confirmation of it) from his phone bills. You could see on the Tuesday, he was making the calls to set them up for the weekends when I wasn’t going to be around.
What a player – hope his genitals fall off!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 11:24am
Escapee says:
Spirt40
Just reading back through some posts. If no one has suggested it, there is a thread in the archive called Co-parenting and the sociopath. It may prove helpful to you. I, fortunately, was not married to a sociopath……… but I am sure you’ll find it useful ….
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 11:29am
OxDrover says:
Dear spirit,
My suggestion to answer most of your questions is to go back through the archives here an dREAD ALL the ARTICLES (not the comments yet, just ALL the articles) it will give you a PhD in PSYCHOPATH, and then you can start to put enough of it together to see what is going on with yours.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and we have given them our power, to hurt and control us and we must take that power back.
Even when you intellectually have the knowledge it takes time to INTERNALIZE IT and get it emotionally, and it does take TIME to recover. I am not going to minimize the amount of time, work and sorrow an dpain you will go through, but IT IS WORTH IT IN THE END.
Recovery is a journey not an “end point” but it is healing, one day at a time, two steps forward, and one back, over and over and over. STAY HERE, do not leave LF, because it is the life line, the life saver, and there will be people here almost 24/7 who will hold your hand, understand what you are going tyhrough, empathize with you, and cheer you on, or lift you up.
People here will not deliberately hurt your feelings or put you down, not to say that someone won’t hurt your feelings, but it isn’t because they meant to, and it simply may be a truth you are not yet ready to handle….this place has saved my life and sanity (such as it is) and has been responsible for a tremendous amount of growth personally, and I still have more to go, I know. I’ve been here two years, but am coming out of a LIFE TIME of dealing with a family full of psychopaths and psychopaths who targeted me. Hang on!!!! I hear a strength in you, and you are enlightening yourself!!! You have what it takes to come out the winner!!!! (((hugs)))) and my prayers for you!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 12:37pm
Spirit40 says:
An email I wrote to my neighbors ;To all the supportive neighbors,
I thought it was really odd that she (landlord) took such an interest in us…when we moved here going out of her way to help us. Letting me store my things in the empty apartment, etc.
Strange comments, about cheating, coming over here and showing us all of her “other” properties… she was “giving” one away in Tampa??? WTF is going on I keep thinking , am I the crazy one…. What are my gut instincts telling me, Something very peculiar is going on.
The tour of her house on Christmas eve , this is my bed where I sleep alone (who cares)… I thought… god does it get any weirder than this???
Oh during dinner its as if I was being judged, Do I really look that stupid? Please guys be honest… then at the end of dinner I wont share my kitchen with you but I would share my husband…. I said I don’t share… I would — his balls off, ( a previous conversation she stated she just had her dog neutered) ???
I thought I would share my bizarre encounter with you all I think sociopaths must attract each other and please know that I am not the crazy one, gas-lighting is something a sociopath does well (look it up on the INTERNET) . If your curious at all I think … it means they make it look like the behaviors are yours and your the crazy one. Then they change their story when they find out your on to them.
These are just my recollections… trying to piece together how I could let someone pull the wool over my eyes for so long but my eyes hopefully are wide open now…. Still am trying to figure it all out, I cant quite put my finger on who is playing who in this strange game…. All I know is I want no part of it.
I am focusing on school and David and do not want him near us. I would move but why should I let him run my life.
Thanks for understanding me a little better hopefully you all seem intelligent, I was told for so long that I was stupid I almost started to believe it… I am not… only stupid for trusting someone as long as I did.
No more victim I am much stronger than this. No longer will he take my spirit and crush it.
Lisa
-Do you not know I am a woman? when I think I must speak.
William Shakespeare Please what do ya’ll think ??
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 12:42pm
Spirit40 says:
OX Drover…. Thank you! I needed this site and he was trying to corrupt my son.. he said oh look where mom got her info lovefraud .com , yeah Im onto you it only took me this long to open my eyes … boy ignorance was not bliss… I used to say it because he thought I was stupid… sometimes I felt I had to learn the game too to get back at him, and in my sons eyes I Look like the bad guy? hope not … I am in the process of going to file restraining order… wish me luck I keep putting it off…
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 12:47pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
Y’know, if the cluster B laid out the “rules” in the beginning of the relationship, there would be no relationship.
Can you imagine signing on for this sort of nonsense?
Of course not!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 1:03pm
EqualParenting says:
Refreshing to read. It will be posted to remind me of how I ingored warning signs for over 25 years, only to finally wake up and realize how much of a victim I was… and still am as the scope of reach penetrated so much of my family.
The hope of reaching healing stages is yet to be realized.
I’d like to add one more…
YOU… shut up and listen to me!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 2:32pm
Spirit40 says:
EqualParenting may I add to yours ,
YOU… shut up and listen to me! dont interupt me !
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 2:55pm
Helplesssoldier says:
I think I am married to one OMG.. but here is another one to add to the list:
THOU SHALL ACCEPT THAT I AM CHEATTING ON YOU AND YOU WILL ACCEPT IT AND IF I AM CAUGHT TAKE ALL THE BLAME FOR THE MARRAIGE FAILING
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 8:06am
Helplesssoldier says:
OR BETTER YET HERE S ANOTHER ONE:
THOU SHALL BELIVE EVERYTHING I SAY IS TRUTH AND NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY AND DO TO GET HELP WILL MEAN NOTHING CAUSE I HAVE TOLD EVERYONE SUCH BS THAT THERE IS NO WAY TO CLEAR YOUR NAME TO THE PUBLIC.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 8:12am
Helplesssoldier says:
OR THE BEST ONE:
THOU SHALL GO TO CHURCH SO I CAN CONTINUE TO DO WHATEVER I WANT SO I CAN KEEP THE WOOL OVER YOUR EYES BY USING GOD AS AN EXCUSE TO CONTINUE WITH MY BEHAVIOR THAT YOU WILL HAVE NO CONTROL OVER.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 8:15am
Advocate55 says:
Wow..can I relate this these commandents..this site has brought me into such amazing levels of understanding of what I have been through with a sociopath abusive ex husband..who in fact cheated on me..betrayed me..and so much more..divorced after 16 years..that was 11 years ago..still on that journey of healing..but the real blessing..is that I have cut myself off from him completely emotionally..what healing that brings to me..freedom..
more recently he has brought me back into court..so physically I have to deal with seeing him..but I can now deal better with him emotionally and keep to my boundaries..
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 10:10am
OxDrover says:
Dear soldier,
You are NOT HELPLESS, that is the thing we ALL must realize, KNOWLEDGE=POWER and we can learn about them, and about ourselves and TAKE BACK OUR POWER. It will not be easy, but we CAN DO IT! They only have the power that we allow them, and it may be a big fight to wrestle it back from them, as they feel so entitled to ALL the power, but they are NOT ENTITLED.
WELCOME TO LOVE FRAUD. Read and READ AND READ and learn, start in the old archives and read each article. This is a wonderful healing place with compassionate people who DO understand what you are fighting! Again, Welcome and god Bless!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 10:51am
justabouthealed says:
Here’s Mark Sanford’s version:
YOU SHALL ACCEPT MY WHINING THAT I’M A VICTIM OF A TRAGIC CIRCUMSTANCES, WHEN THE FACT IS I MERCILESSLY INJURED AND BETRAYED EVERYONE IN MY WORLD. DON’T FORGET, THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, IT IS …AT THE END OF THE DAY….A TRAGIC LOVE STORY WITH ME IN THE HERO ROLE.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 11:11am
Escapee says:
All
To sum up all of the above:
“The “little emperor” must have his needs met at all times, regardless of who unreasonable they may be. You must be ’sitting pretty’ at all times, just in case I decide you are useful to me”.
Dispicable……….. what else do you need to know about these creeps – why are we wasting our time analysing them ? They are scum.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 12:59pm
Escapee says:
Sorry – first line should read ‘how’ NOT ‘who’ ….. maybe that’s freudian eh? It doesn’t really matter – you one day – someone else the next……….
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 1:00pm
jfog1 says:
Hi, and thanks to all who wrote.
OxDrover, I really got a kick out of your first response. I could just see the fleas and crabs, and (the 100 Ho’s who gave them to him)! Also, for your list of what these N/Ps are and what they do! Slimone, I am so sorry that you had to go through the pain that you did. Thank you for sharing.
Justabouthealed, you sound like me and what I was doing to please my N/P.
Now, I have a question. Can it be that I subconciously seek this type of person out? I was married to a man for twenty four years who was abusive, controlling, was only nice to me when he wanted sex, which wasn’t often. He was always looking at other women, porn, led a double life, etc. Lies rolled out of his mouth, but he was different than my current N/P. When we first divorced, I went to a massge therapist that some acquaintances of mine recommended. I was in a lot of pain and had to go twice a week for a while. I did not know until later that he had told my mother, who went to him at my suggestion, that he loved me and wanted to marry me!
My mother said that I was just out of a painful situation, but this man seemed so sweet and genuine and was the kindest man, or so I thought, so I began seeing him. After a short while, I thought that I was in love with him. He wanted to marry me and even gave me a ring. ( I later found out that it was a fake ) When my mother told him about the problems I was having with my ex and his not giving me the money he owed, and also telling him her financial difficulties, he became emotionally abusive. He told me that if I gained so much as a half of a pound, he would dump me. I am 5′6″ and at the time weighed 118Lbs. He wanted me to lose weight. I did aerobics for an hour each day, and yoga for another twenty minutes. The worst day was when a person whom I had met just two times forwarded a voicemail that the man I thought loved me was telling this person that he couldn’t deal with my depression and he thought he was going to get money. He said that he was “tricked” into dating me!
I went into such a deep depression because my ex had taken any self-esteem I had from me, then this man who I now know is at the very least a N/con-man, took what I had left.
A few months later I met who was to be my current nightmare. Is there something wrong with me?
One thing that I can say now is that because of these men, I have no money for anyone to be after, although there is the appearance that i do because of the family business that I help run.
I don’t know if I should date anyone seriously again. I sure don’t want to get married.
Thanks for reading. Sorry to be so long.
Janet
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 11 July 2009 @ 4:14pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jfog,
AFtter my husband was killed in an accident, I felt so lonely and unloveable and alone that I iwas targeted by a P whose x wife had caught him cheating and dumped him. He was looking for another “respectable wife” to cheat on. He was a serial cheater with 3-4- even 5 women on a string all at once.
After 4 months he started to abuse me verbally, and I also found out later he had burned the home of one woman a former girlfriend because she had dumped him. I finally kicked him to the curb about 8 months after our relationship started but it hurt me badly to do so.
I grieved for several months afterwards, but now feel very comfortable alone—not lonely. If the right guy came along (fat chance) I might date again, but I would be quite cautious.
After having been in a terrible marriage for so long I can only imagine how lonely you were and how vulnerable.
No I idon’t think you pick kthe kind of guy who will abuse you or that you WANT that kind of guy, these con men are slick to “idolize” us at first and it makes us feel so SPECIAL but before long the abuse starts….it is when we NOTICE THE ABUSE and fail to RUN that we fall into trouble with our excuses of why we should stay and try to “fix” him etc.
When we learn from one psychopathic and/or abusive relationship that we do NOT deserve to be treated wioth abuse and disrespect, we will no longer TOLERATE abuse and so we kick those jerks to the curb….even if it hurts.
Being “brave” does not mean having no fear, it means being scared chitless and STILL DOING WHAT WE KNOW IS RIGHT! Even if it hurts, we must DEMAND and INSIST that people treat us with kindness or get the heck out of our lives.
Sounds like you escaped another psychopath. GOOD FOR YOU!!! Don’t giv eup hope of finding a good relationship, but build your life where you are happy alone, and then mayb3e you will find the right good and kind person to SHARE your happiness with. ONLY WE can make ourselves happy!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 11 July 2009 @ 4:38pm
jfog1 says:
Thanks again, OxDrover for your wise words and kindness.
I am sorry for your your loss. I cannot imagine losing a husband that you loved, especially so unexpectedly. I am also sorry for your having to deal with such pain after such a loss. You must be a very strong woman.
I wonder if I will ever have the issues with both my ex and soon to be ex resolved where I can have some peace and contentment. I know that I don’t have to have a man in my life to make me happy. Right now all I can think about is the pain that the ones I had caused me, and for that matter still are. My ex is supposed to be paying me every month, he has stopped. My soon to be ex is supposed to be paying towards a debt that I have to pay, and he is perpetually late. He always writes a very sweet note giving a plausable excuse, then feels like he can do what he wants because he thinks that I am too nice to take him to court. I have told my attorney, but he has shrugged it off so far. I have to have another attorney send my first husband a letter threatening him with contempt of court so he will do what he is supposed to do, but he will harrass me and our sons relentlessly when I do because this is an ongoing saga.
I have all of the expenses of our son’s while they are at home because they couldn’t find any summer jobs. It is all I can do to make it. What kills me is that my two wonderful (yeah right!) husbands each make six figures!!!
Believe it or not, I do try to think positively and focus on my boys and helping to take care of my father, who has multi-infarct dementia, diabetes, and lung cancer. He is failing so quickly. I am glad that he isn’t aware of all that I am going through though, as he would be a basket case!
I hope that I can one day be as wise and strong as you and so many of the wonderful people who write on this blog.
You are all great. Hugs to everyone.
Janet
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 11 July 2009 @ 8:06pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Jfog,
Sweetie, I am so sorry that you have had to go through all this mess, but I do empathize for sure.
Be sure and take care of YOU as well as your father and your sons.I wasn’t very good about taking care of myself as I was of taking care of others. Believe me, my worst enemy was ME. because I didn’t value myself or care for myself. I put others first always, and sometimes the people I cared for didn’t appreciate me or my efforts. I’m finally learning to take care of myself, so that I can have strength to SHARE with others.
It’s kind of like I think, if food was scarce and you gave it ALL to your sons or your father and NONE for yourself, eventually you would starve and there would be NO food for ANYONE, so you must keep up your own mental, physical and emotional health by “eating some of the food” for yourself! I almost waited too long before I started taking care of me. I am growing in strength, though I still have down days too, but when I need or want a day Just for ME, I take it. (((hugs)))) and my prayers fo ryou and your growing strength and wisdom!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 11 July 2009 @ 10:09pm
Tilly says:
Oxy and Rosa !
Your advice to Jim was sooo good!! I can’t believe that Indy Jim went a million steps forward and then one giant one back..just goes to show it happens to the best of us! Thank God he has got you two! Or he would be still trying to rescue “cinderella and her fella”.
And yes Jim, right now , if i am in bed at night and i can’t sleep, I don’t feel any fear at all. What I feel is, “come on, bring it on you P! come try and stalk me now, then we will see who is the greater psychopath tonight!! ”
I heard a rumour that Matt is “in love”…this will be REALLY interesting, this one!!! ha ha! xoxox
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 4:29am
Tilly says:
Matt!
Thankyou for the new terminology, I am going to use this medical discourse to some of the detectives that I have to live with right now, “excuse me, detective seargent Plod, but i really do think you have “craniel rectal inversion today”! Bet you anything that they are too proud to ask me what it is! lol
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 4:41am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Tilly…Thanks, and yes, it’s good to have friends here. Now I have to figure out why I did what I did, and go on, or keep repeating my mistakes.
Live without fear, Tilly, and stay strong and safe.
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 9:00am
OxDrover says:
Dear Jimmy-boy-0,
If you figure out why you did what you did, let us know so we can avoid that–I actually think you did what you did because you are HUMAN—and I am afraid we are all afflicted with that same problem! Humans make MISTAKES.
But what I did see is that YOU DID THE RIGHT THING AT THE RIGHT TIME WHEN YOU SAW THE RED FLAGS, even if it did hurt a bit.
That’s the thing about human relationships, is the more we care about someone, the more we hurt if something happens to that relationship. It is only the Ps, who don’t care about anyone (except as a possession) who aren’t hurt if the relationship breaks up, they just move on to another victim. They may be MAD but never hurt emotionally like someone who is truly capable of caring.
Your lady friend may have had some “pink” flags, but when she started talking about the “stalker” and then started seeing him, that was a RED FLAG, and you recognized it as a red flag and went NC with her. I don’t think she herself is a psychopath, juist a poor woman who for whatever reason is bored by good guys and somehow excited by the “bad boys” and has not LEARNED from her previous encounters with the psychopaths. If she is not ready to learn (In research they call this “pre-contemplation” stage (meaning she hasn’t thought about it! Gosh, I love that 4-bit word!–actually, I think it is a 6-bit word! LOL)
Actually, Jim, I think this “exercise” in putting to use what you have learned is a great example to yourself and to us as well, how to handle this situation. While you were interested in this woman as a friend (and maybe more) you were CAUTIOUS and you kept your eyes OPEN to REALITY, not clouded with FOG or IDEALS, and okay, you struck out on this one, maybe the next one won’t be a strike out! Personally, I am proud of you!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 9:22am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy…thanks. Yesterday, I had a good day. An old friend had called me some time ago about a problem he had in a remodeling project. It required some skills I gained ten plus years ago, involved some limitations, and some “problem solving” skills.
For most of the day…physical labor and a need to remain focused as I worked through it, step by step, until it was done. It was a mix of skill and art, and it worked. I haven’t had that sense of accomplishment in a long time, and it felt good.
My recent experience was a mix of good and bad. I don’t know enough about everyone else’s motives, but it turned bad for me, and I had to get out.
That’s what worked for me at the time. As for the future…we’ll see. The project completed yesterday helped me in “retraining” my brain. I need to do more of this.
Thanks again,
Jim
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 10:43am
DangerWillRobinson says:
You will accept, recognize, and concede that goose stepping is a natural form of locomotion.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 7:35pm
ANewLily says:
First, I want to say that I read all of the posts above and empathized with each story.
However, I am going to be very “selfish” and usurp the thread with my VERY GOOD NEWS. One of my 3 daughters just called me!!!!!!! She hasn’t called for 7 years!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 8:47pm
ANewLily says:
PS The only explanation is that her father’s mask must have slipped and she finally saw it! Pray for protection for her from his wrath!
EVERY time in the past, if he learned that one of the kyds called me, he found some covert slimy way to hurt me!!! Not knowing if he was retaliating against any of our 4 adult children I didn’t call them either.
This time — after the time spent gaining sustenance from LF I really feel strong enough to handle calmly any garbage he slings at me! (But, not against my children!)
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 8:52pm
shabbychic says:
Lily… I am so happy for you!! I hope everything works out!! I don’t think you are being selfish at all… we have to share our good news too!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 9:42pm
henry says:
lily – that is good news.. I am so happy for you…you dont need to expalin a spath to anybody, they reveal themselves eventually..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 12 July 2009 @ 11:27pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Lily!!!! I just saw your post and I am SOOOO HAPPY for you, I know how it has pained you in the past that your X had smeared you to your children, your sisters, etc.
Remember what Abe Lincoln said about “you can fool some of the people all the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all the people all the time” I hope that this is the start of your family seeing that your X is NOT like “Honest Abe!”
I am so glad that God answered your prayers with a “yes”!!! I know it was so many years before mine were answered where my son C was concerned, as he was married to that P for nearly 8 years and she separated him from us. I find it difficult to wait for God’s time, I want it NOW—but I am slowly learning some patience—well, okay, VERY slowly learning patience! LOL (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 12:13am
blueskies says:
Great News Lilly:)xx You sound over the moon. I am very happy for you too. I wish you both lots of joy for the future and super strong LF brand garbage armour!:)
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 13 July 2009 @ 7:19am
archerjf says:
I raise chickens. I was sitting on my back porch this am, drinking coffee and watching the chickens, when I realized that I have the perfect example of the 2 different relationships in marriage. I have a rooster and a hen loose in the lot. He pecks her so much that she has a sport on her back that is naked and raw. He has no tail feathers because she goes around behind him and pulls them out. Now I have another rooster and hen in a smaller pen inside the larger enclosure. One day I opened it up to feed them and the rooster flew out. I couldn’t catch him so I left him out. The nest morning I noticed the hen had not eaten her food and was just sitting with her chest puffed out and wouldn’t move. This went on for 2 days. I was sure she was going to die. On the 3rd day I caught the rooster and put him back in the pen. The next morning she was up eating and acting normal. You see she couldn’t do without him unlike the other couple unlike the other couple always inflicting pain. I lived with my sociopath for 5 months. If I had tried to live with him any longer it would have been like the couple always working to inflict more pain. I decided thats not the way I want to live.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 15 July 2009 @ 9:57am
Tilly says:
I wish I could pull all the tail feathers out of all my P exes.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:24am
biddy says:
Can someone please help me? I’ve been reading the information on this sight and I’m very afraid now. I just married a man last month that his ex wife has constantly tried to convince me that he is a sociopath. I thought she was crazy and he kept telling me that she had just never gotten over him. I was married when I met him and he had been married to this woman for 7 years. We were all acquaintances. He kept flirting with me and asked for my phone number and I gave it to him. He was so sweet and giving me the attention that I had been lacking from my husband for a very long time. Three weeks later, I left my husband of 13 years to be with this man. His wife was taken by total surprise as was my husband. However, she filed for a divorce immediately. He would not even communicate with her about the divorce or tying up the loose ends regarding their parting ways. He told her to communicate anything she had to say to him through my email or through a co-worker of his. She did this because she said she wanted it to be over with as quickly as possible. She kept telling me that he turned into a total monster during those last three weeks that he lived with her…someone she didn’t know. She also said that when he first left leaving her in a total state of shock and confusion that several of their friends came forward to inform her of his constant cheating that began just shortly after they married. However, he also presented himself to be the perfect loving husband when he was in her presence. She checked the stories out and found them to be true. He was leading a double life behind her back. She also learned that he had treated all his previous girlfriends and wives in the same manner and had been accused of inappropriate conduct with children on two separate occasions involving two totally different young girls. She also told me that he wouldn’t work and would expect me to support him.
When I confronted him, he admitted that it was all true but told me that he really loved me and that that part of his life was over. He’s 40 years old. His ex-wife went to a counselor seeking help in moving past the damage he had done to her. She told me that when she told her counselor that she couldn’t understand how her husband could have been doing all these things behind her back and then come home to her wanting sex and playing the role of the perfect husband, he told her flatly that he was a sociopath. She totally believed it and passed the info along to me. She kept sending me information describing the deceitful behavior of sociopaths. I finally wrote her off as a nutcase because the description did not fit the man I knew at all.
Since that time, I learned that he never stopped his cheating even when he left her to be with me. He had had sexual encounters with many women during the entire two years since leaving his wife although he was living with me. He was even telling one that he loved her and was planning to be with her. He brought her to our house where they would have sex. I would sometimes call him in the middle of their having sex and he would talk so sweet to me and make background noises to trick me into believing that he was working, etc. Then, he’d go straight back to continuing to carry out his sexual actions with her. I have talked to this woman and this is what she has told me. I confronted him with the information I had learned about his cheating. He said it was true but that it was my fault because I would not marry him. He said I wasn’t there for him and the other women were and that he didn’t feel that I loved him anymore. His ex-wife told me that he told her the same thing when he was leaving me for her.
I married him a few months later. He promised that he would make everything up to me. Swore it on his mother’s life and promised his mother that he’d always treat me well and stop his past behavior. He hasn’t worked in months, and I am supporting us. He has also transmitted two STDs to me…genital herpes and HPV…the kind that causes cervical cancer. I’ve already had to deal with several procedures to rid myself of cancerous cells. I’ve also battled several trich infections.
Am I a fool? Did his ex know what she was talking about all this time and my love for him has blinded me into thinking that I’m the special girl that he’s always been needing. He’s asked me to love him unconditionally and I’ve promised to do that and stand by him but sometimes I’m just miserable. He acts like a child and tells me that he needs my constant attention. It seems that everything is always about him. He’s not physically abusive but gets very angry if I bring up anything about his past. He says he wants to make a brand new start with me and show me that he can be different. Please send me your opinions of my situation. I can tell that all of you are very knowledgeable when it comes to sociopaths. I need to know. He’s ten years older and I don’t want to waste my life on this man if he’s not going to change.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:19am
biddy says:
Oh, I forgot to mention that his ex-wife is now remarried and seems very happy. She married an old childhood friend and he seems to idolize her. He is fulling supporting her and she quit her job of 27 years to help him with his business. I watch her life through her myspace page. They look very happy together and she has a glow about her. I’m happy for her and wrote her to tell her. She thanked me but still warned me that my husband is a sociopath. She has always been very nice to me saying that she’s never blamed me because she knows that her ex (my husband) is a predator and targeted me as a victim. I really don’t think she wants my husband back in her life in any way like he says she does. She also seems very intelligent.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:39am
Matt says:
Biddy:
Welcome. I am glad you found LF. I was ready to kill myself after 15 months of my S’s (sociopath’s) antics.
First, you are not a fool. I can tell you point blank that you have been deceived, lied to, manipulated, exploited and lovebombed. These are all classic sociopathic techniques.
Second, he is not going to change. Therapy only makes these non-humans worse.
Your S has followed the classic pattern of tapping into a need of ours, in your case, feeling neglected and unhappy in your marriage. Then he swept you off your feet (lovebombing). Now he’s controlling you through threats, false promises, promises extracted from you, etc. Problem is, these creatures (I don’t feel they merit the title of human) can only keep the act up for 3 or 4 months. Then the mask slips and they reveal the monsters they really are.
Your’s is cheating. He has given ou 2 STDS. He acts like a child who needs non-stop attention — which he does, because with a sociopath it is all about them — you do not matter one iota in this equation.
Trust me when I tell you his ex-wife was RELIEVED when you took the problem of S off her hands. Mine had a wonderful family. They adored me. I also see, now that he’s been out of my life 8 months, that they were relieved that they didn’t have to bail him out and deal with his antics. He cost me a lot of money, huge amounts of heartache and did a number on my health from the non-stop stress. My only goal at this point is to get him sent back to prison.
He is already shutting you down — no inquiries about his past. He may not be physically abusive, but emotional abuse, which you are going through is worse. I can also tell from your letter that he is isolating you from our support system. Oh, yes and the repeated promises of “I’ve changed” “We can have a new life”, etc are all promises written on the wind. Oh yes, and the demands for “unconditional love” and the “Promises to stand by him” are just pure manipulation. You are supposed to do what HE wants while he will continue to do whatever the hell he wants at your expense.
As I said earlier, there is no therapy for these creatures. They are all perfectly happy with their interior landscape. We are the problem.
You want my opinion? Here it is. Get out now. Grab what money and assets you have that he hasn’t used yet, cut off any credit cards you may be jointly liable on with him, clean out the bank accounts before he does and save yourself. If you read enough letters on this site you will discover how many people have stuck it out for years only to find that it doesn’t get better.
Save yourself. Run and don’t look back. If you need any further clarification, read the articles in the archives. I’d run out at first light and buy Robert Hare’s “Without Conscience”. If that doesn’t send you packing, since you will see your S jumping off the page at you, I don’t know what will.
Don’t mean for this to sound hard-hearted. But, I wish to God that when I started experiencing what you are after 3 months that I had had the good sense to get out instead of tolerating his abuse and exploitation for another year. The climb back took me months. So, get out now.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:43am
blueskies says:
omg.
you are not a fool.
all the questions you are asking yourself you are asking for a reason.
and they are all in the affirmative most likely.
God this has shaken me.
But big hugs, I am so pleased you found this place!
LISTEN! Listen to yourself, what people are telling you, what you have written…
He IS what he IS,he WILL NOT change! it is his behaviour NOT his words that is the thing.
read here …read what other’s have said…
I am going to be thinking about you and sending caring thoughts …
I havent read a post on here so far that has touched me as much as this…
Luckily you have some of the most wonderful people here to turn to, Kathleen and Oxy, and LTL and …the list goes on.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:45am
biddy says:
Thanks so much for your responses. I don’t know what to do. I bought a used mobile home and have invested all my savings in it and have been the one making the payments on it. It is on land that his mother owns and I don’t want to leave it, I have nowhere to go and no money!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 7:58am
blueskies says:
hang in there biddy xx I think if you keep checking back here today, you will get a lot of REAL, helpful, practical advice and support from people who REALLY do know what you are experiencing.xx I am a bit rubbish on the practical front, but I am holding your hand:)xx
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:05am
biddy says:
I also read on here somewhere that sociopaths sometimes change when they get older. He keeps telling me that he is older now and that has realized that if he doesn’t change his ways, that he will be all alone someday. He had a great fear of being alone. He also seems truly sorry that he gave me the STDs and said that it was a real eye-opener for him because he never dreamed that he might catch a STD. I know a lot of the women that he has had sex with in the past and most are women who sleep around with a lot of different men. The one girl that he kept telling her to be patient with him and they would be together was not that sort. She is very successful and has a very good job. His ex-wife also had a good job and supported him well. She has told me that he’ll continue to have sexual encounters but will stay with me until he finds someone else who has more to offer him by way on financial support. She has also said that he’s using me to pay for the house that is on his mother’s property and then he’ll be done with me. She said that all he ever talked about was wanting to live where we live. The house is only financed for another couple of years. He’s very affectionate towards me and jealous as well. He also seems proud that I am his wife and asks me all the time what he can do to “wow” me. He seems to REALLY love me. I know that I love him very much but I don’t know what to think about how he has behaved in the past. I believe that people deserve second chances. When I tried to leave after learning about his cheating, he sobbed and begged me not to go so I stayed.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:14am
blueskies says:
He SAYS a lot doesnt he…? It’s not him you should be listening to. Its the EVIDENCE and yourself. What is he ACTUALLY doing/ done?x
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:29am
biddy says:
I’m not trying to be stubborn…I just feel SO very confused! His ex says that he is not real, that he cannot love and that he has no feelings for anyone else. Yet, he’s been truthful with me about his cheating and says that he knows that he has a problem, he’s had his mother talk with me and she says that she can tell that he loves me (his ex told me that his mother often told her that she could tell that it was SHE who was also the love of his life and that I shouldn’t believe anything his mother says, either), he seems to be compassionate and very sensitive…he cries even when he hears touching songs or watches sad movies with me. He keeps telling me that his ex is just trying to cause us problems but he did exactly what she said he would do. I just don’t know what or who to trust or believe! He just says that he needs a lot of attention and that if he doesn’t get it, he feels insecure and seeks it elsewhere. I feel sorry for him.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:37am
blueskies says:
I dont think you are being stubborn. xxx I apologise if it came across like that. x
‘I just don’t know what or who to trust or believe!’
Yourself.Your gut.
He just says that he needs a lot of attention and that if he doesn’t get it, he feels insecure and seeks it elsewhere. I feel sorry for him.
I soooo totally have been where you are, so PLEASE dont get me wrong, but he is 40 years old, not 3. Of course you feel sorry for him because YOU are a GOOD person and trying to help someone because YOU have a heart and soul.xx you are confused because it doesnt make sense…it doesnt add up! IT DOESNT! you cant make it add up with your goodness and love.
The being moved by songs, the weeping at movies, seems so compassionate…you sound like me 6 monthes ago:(
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 8:53am
biddy says:
My gut is just as confused as my mind. One minute it tells me one thing and another the next. I don’t know why I just can’t make myself leave him. I know that I love him more than I’ve ever loved anyone. I very much want to believe that he has just made some very bad choices in his life. He says that he’s very ashamed of the things he has done and it’s difficult to face the people we know. We live in a very small community where news travels fast. He also plays in a band and is in contact with the local public often. He says that he is embarrassed by the things he has done. However, his ex wife tells me that’s just another ploy and it was these very people who told her the kind of person that he was but never said a word until he left her. The ex and he were from different communities and she didn’t know any of the people who had known him for most of his life. They told her that he had always been a womanizer and some even called him a predator. When she asked them why they didn’t tell her about him…they said they thought that maybe he really loved her and had changed him. Now, these same people are saying the same things to me…that they see a change in him, etc. I’m afraid if I walk out on him, that I’ll be walking out on a man that really loves me and I know I love him. Doesn’t everyone have bad things in their past? There are some differences in the way he is with me and the way he was with his ex. She said he started out being really helpful around the house and working steadily but over time…he stopped doing anything. He has been really great about helping around the house because he says that he feels guilty because he’s not working. His ex says that he learned from her that not holding down and job and sitting on his rear doesn’t go over very well so he’s trying to show me that she’s wrong about him. She told me that some of the things that I’ve told her that he has said to me when it comes to being mature and responsible are direct quotes of things that she once said to him when she tried to talk to him about his needing to grow up and accept some responsibility for the household. Should I just write everything off that she says…stop talking to her and see what happens?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 9:17am
blueskies says:
Look, I have alarm bells going off all over my brain with every, single thing you are say to me because I have been in your position, heard exactly the same things from his ex wife and ignored them and I want to scream RUN!.
BUT you have to do what YOU feel is right… and you have to be gentle with yourself… I cannot walking in your shoes or you in mine… just know that whatever you do you will be supported and nurtured here at Love fraud:)x
I think that this man is a classic sociopath(its like he has the handbook) and I think you should get the heck out of there… you will come to your own decision. I hope, as Matt says, it will be sooner rather than later.
Read lots here. ask. talk. rant. you will get help to find your way through.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:09am
blueskies says:
*oops, typo – ‘every single thing you say because’ – not ‘ to me’ (blush)*
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:11am
blueskies says:
There are reasons why you feel confused and why even with all you know you feel that you cannot leave him, and there are articles right here written by some excellent people who can explain that to you(without spelling mistakes like moi!)x
It’s going to take a bit of time to wrap your head around, but you are already on the right road.
As Oxy says : Knowledge = power! the power to make an informed choice for yourself.x
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:18am
blueskies says:
Maybe also for now, now I am thinking about it, try and cut out what she says (just for now) and look at the REALITIES (not the hopes and fantasies, projections of your own affection or promises he makes) of how he is with you. It’s a good start.xxx
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:24am
biddy says:
blueskies:
I understand…everything I’ve read on here backs up what she says. I wrote her a couple of weeks ago and asked her if she felt I’d made a mistake in marrying him and did she think he’d ever change. She says she doesn’t think so but that she really shouldn’t compare her life with him to mine. Then, she wrote me back and reminded me that after she thought about it…so far nothing about mine and his relationship had really been any different from their’s…he cheated repeatedly on both of us, is still immature and has constant attention needs, and still isn’t sharing the financial responsibilities of the household. Of course, when I communicate with her…I get upset…and confront him with what she has said. Somehow, he manages to make it all better and keeps demanding that I not communicate with her at all. It’s during the bad times that I want to talk to her because I feel that she is the only one who understands how consuming he is of me. She has pointed out to me that I ask her questions and then when she tells me something that I don’t want to hear…I start defending him. She has gotten really frustrated with me before. She says she’s only trying to spare me the agony of what she and the others have endured. She claims that he caused her to lose everything she had worked for and is still bitter towards him although it’s been nearly 3 years since their divorce. She said that she got over him in a hurry once she realized that he wasn’t REAL…she said the man that she was in love with never really existed. But, she said she would never get over the betrayal or the deceit that he inflicted upon her or the way he took advantage of her and jeopardized her health/life by having unprotected sex with multiple partners and then coming home to have sex with her. I stop talking to her and it seems like I start to trust him, then when I get upset with him, I end up writing her and she gives me another earful and insists that I educate myself on the behavior of sociopaths. Some of the characteristics seem to fit while others don’t. This is all so confusing to me. You say you believe that he is a classic sociopath…is it because of his cheating? What has you so convinced that I can’t see so easily? Help me understand.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:26am
blueskies says:
try and break things down into what you KNOW for REAL.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:26am
blueskies says:
WHY i think he’s a classic sociopath?
* he is a SERIAL cheater, liar and user
* He is blaming others for his own actions
*HE is say he is sorry but NOT STOPPING
*he is doing a classic pity play feigning embarrassment/shame BUT what is he DOING about it??
* He seems to have had a history of either casual sex or parasitic relationships with women.
*Has constant need for attention
*Is not taking financial responsibility.
* He tells you one thing one minute and another the next
*HE HAS YOU IN A CONSTANT STATE OF WORRY AND CONFUSION AND ITS NOT THE FIRST TIME HE HAS DONE THIS TO A WOMAN HE ‘LOVES”.
HE IS MAKING YOU FEEL BAD!
HE IS MAKING YOU WONDER ENOUGH TO COME HERE!
those are enough red flags for me at the point I am at to say yup, we got one!xxx This is MY opinion based on what you have written.
Please read and educate yourself like has been suggested. This is YOUR road to travel and you will find your own truth but you have to try to take the information you find IN, and let the rosy spectacles of your own loving heart and goodness drop when you are looking at what you have with him here.xxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:39am
blueskies says:
P.S I cannot diagnose anyone a socipath I can just give my opinion:)x I think the most important thing is that you are in distress and it needs sorting out.x
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:51am
biddy says:
Yeah, you’re right. I guess I just need it drilled in my head deeper than the things that I’m allowing him to drill into it. I don’t know what to do. I have no money and MY home is on his mother’s property. I don’t have the money to move it. I’ve sunk everything into that house just so I could have the security of a home.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 10:52am
blueskies says:
Take it slowly Biddy. Start at the beginning, get clued up. Take as long as you need. Be gentle with yourself. Maybe you are not in a position to take control of what’s going on around you right now, but you can make a start on yourself, your own feelings and understanding of where you are xx I think the best thing you can do is work on building your own strength, and well being, stay alert, play it cool, stay here, suck up as much information as you can…x
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 11:07am
Matt says:
biddy:
With respect to your question as to whether an S gets “better” as they get older — you are hanging onto false hope. Steve has written an article on this site. Their antics and unconscionable behavior slow down a bit, but only because they don’t have the energy to keep the game going. But, they don’t develop a conscience. They don’t develop empathy. They don’t give a damn about you.
Also, the more I read of your exchange with blueskies, the more convinced you have a full blown S on your hands — the parasitic lifestyle, getting “mommy” to plead his case with you, the fact that you are busy rationalizing his horrific behavior, your desperately searching for signs that he really isn’t as bad as he seems. I agree with blueskies. Turn off what he is saying and just look at his actions and how they affect you. Not a pretty picture.
I think you need to sit down and begin planning your escape. First things first. Close out the joint bank accounts. Close out the joint credit cards. You want to cut him off from access to any of YOUR funds or credit. Each day that goes by that he can drain you further is one more day you are stuck in this hell of a marriage. You need to start saving money now so you can move your trailer. Or sell it and move yourself somewhere else.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:17pm
ANewLily says:
Biddy, I agree with others — including the ex-wife – that you are dealing with a disordered person. After just a month of marriage, I think you can even still have it annulled.
If you wait, and then get a divorce, half of what you EARNED will be his!
And NO, as they age they do NOT get better — just more covert! Mine is 73 and has his next victim totally trapped. He persuaded her to put $40,000 into their new house (because he missed the mansion he lived in with me) but he won’t marry her. He treats her even worse than he did me (after 4 years of cohabitation) and she is TRAPPED.
I never warned her because everyone said if I did, she’d only think I was a bitter nutcase — and wanted him back. Yuk, it took every ounce of strength to get OUT, I’d never go BACK. Sound familiar?
Could you borrow the money to move the mobile home to a new lot – now and asap — before you lose it altogether?
We all understand your confusion!! We’ve ALL “been there, done that.”
My thoughts and prayers are with you as you sort through to a decision for YOUR life. It won’t get better. He won’t change. He can’t love!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:46pm
ANewLily says:
And your love can’t “save” him! I desired and hope that for 46.5 YEARS and my love for him didn’t even make a dent in his disordered behavior!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 12:51pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
biddy, welcome to LoveFraud. I’m really glad you found us. This is a great place for information and support. If you haven’t done so already, check out the archives. There are a lot of good articles there that may help you get more clear about what you’re dealing with, and what to do.
But you’ve been getting good advice already. The position you’re in is familiar. You’re financially enmeshed. And dealing with someone who is saying and doing every possible thing (to your face) to keep you supporting him and enabling him to continue his lifestyle.
He knows all the right things to say. All the ways to defuse your concerns and anger because he claims he really loves you or is different than he used to be. All the ways to make every avenue of support or help that you can find “wrong” or people who are trying to use you or are out to get him. All the ways to make you feel guilty for being “disloyal” or for trying to take care of yourself.
They are particularly good at absolutely dazzling you with how much they love you, when they have the slightest concern that you might be thinking about resigning from the role of supporting them or giving them your money in other ways or slipping out from under their emotional control. And if you do slip away, they often turn very nasty.
For that reason, you need to be careful. Yes, it’s a good idea to start thinking about escape. You wouldn’t be here on LoveFraud if you didn’t have a pretty good idea of what you’re dealing with. Now, the best thing you can do is just start quietly thinking about how you’re going to get away.
Don’t worry about the back-and-forth nature of your feelings. It’s one of the characteristics of these relationships. Sociopaths are experts at manipulating our feelings, and particularly at making us question ourselves. If you’re feeling that way, it’s just goes with the territory.
What can help you keep yourself on track is thinking about what you really want in your life. Do you want a husband who is a financial parasite? Do you want a husband who cheats on you and gives you STDs? Do you want to be paying for a house that is the “dream” of lying, unfaithful man and is on his mother’s property?
It’s clear you’re facing some challenges here, at least on the financial side. But first figure out what you want in your life. If you can visualize that, then it gets a lot easier to figure out how to do it. And it sounds like you want something better than this. You certainly deserve it. You sound like a caring, responsible, hard-working person. You can do better than this.
Please keep posting. I know this is a very difficult time for you, trying to make sense of a lot of contradictory information — what he says and what he does, what you hear and what you experience. And don’t think we’re pressuring you to make a decision. What you’re hearing from us is just recognition. It sounds like our own stories.
We’re glad your hear, and we’re behind you.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:03pm
biddy says:
Thanks to all of you for your responses. Yes, the contradictions are hard to deal with. And, since I love him so much, it’s been really hard for me not believe that he will change, when he has begged for just one chance for him to show me that he’s not the person he used to be. Can someone please tell me why he has been truthful with me about everything. His stories match his ex wives about his past behavior with her and with others before her. After he cheated on me with several other women, one that he seemed to be more involved with and that I have communicated with about the ongoings between the two of them…even their stories match. Why didn’t he just lie? He NEVER admitted his cheating to his ex-wife…just when he left her for me. She found out about his cheating on her after he left her. She said that she had suspected it several times and nearly caught him a few times but that he’d always lie, cry and beg her not to divorce him. She said she once found the phone numbers of two women in his truck, she confronted him and he started crying and begging her not to divorce him but never admitted the truth and that was that he was sleeping with these women. So, why is he being so honest with me but never was with her?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:37pm
blueskies says:
My s/p was truthful with me in the beginning too. I figure he just wanted to see how far he could take me and how much I could forgive, how deep I was invested… and also let himself off…. because he was ‘coming clean’. Which in turn would make me think oh…at least he’s being honest with ME (not like his wife who didn’t understand/he didn’t love as much as me.)
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 1:46pm
justabouthealed says:
Biddy, Kathy gave you great advice. If he is being “truthful” with you (for real) it is only because he has determined that is very important to you and that for now it is getting him what he wants. I SWORE the bad man I was involved with was being truthful withe me too. But, while it took more than a year to find out, I discovered he was choosing carefully what to be honest about and what to simply not tell me. Lying by omission is still lying. I swore that when he used a certain tone of voice, he was being honest, and he was…in that very moment.
But reread what you have written about his history of how he has treated people. Would you read that and think “What a wonderful guy!” Are those things you’ve always dreamed of finding in a man?
A great article, written with humor is http://www.heartless-bitches.c.....cial.shtml The theme is “But he would never do that to you, you’re so special to him”
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:21pm
Matt says:
biddy:
My S was also “truthful” in the beginning. I have since learned that he used the “truth” as part of his pity play to keep me in the fold when he realized I was ready to walk.
You seem to be having some confusion over the fact that your S doesn’t exhibit “all” the signs of sociopaths. Dr Hare makes it very clear that a person doesn’t have to exhibit all the signs to be sociopathic/seriously disordered. All you need to see are one or two signs and you should be running for the exit. From what you’ve written, you’ve got a whole lot of sociopatic red flags waving.
You say you are in love with him. We have all been there. What you are in love with is the ILLUSION he presented up front. We all fell in love with the ILLUSION. I then spent over a year trying to “win back that wonderful man I fell in love with” only to learn that man never, ever existed and that I had fallen in love with an illusion.
Also, you wonder what your future holds. I believe he has already told you that — that he will hang around until something better comes along. My question to you is — what the hell is in this for you?
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:23pm
justabouthealed says:
Here’s a fair use quote from that article. While the article is flip, I don’t intend any flipness toward your situation. Being emotionally betrayed, getting conflicting information, loving someone so deeply who has hurt others so deeply….it was certainly the most painful experience of my life (and I’ve had my share). It has taken me two years to climb out of the hole he put me in. So I do feel for you. So don’t let the humor put you off. There is a serious message in there, that I wish I had heeded.Here’s the quote:
“He’s told you all his deep dark secrets (at least, all the ones he thinks can win him sympathy and attention). He’s acknowledged how he behaved badly in the past (even though it was brought out by who he was with). You two must have a very special connection for him to be so open and “honest”. And he seems to be remorseful, so that must mean he won’t do that kind of thing again, right? Not with you. You’re special. So what if he told his ex the same kinds of deep, dark secrets, opened up in the same way? So what if he exhibited the same kind of remorse for things he did to partners before HER? So what if he told her all the same sob stories and pretended to be working on his shit with her? So what if he lied to his therapist and others? He really means it this time, with you.”
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:44pm
justabouthealed says:
Please note the whole article is poking fun at what these guys say and what we swallow.
There was a time that the above quote would have sounded TRUE to me, not dripping with irony. It is solid sarcasm.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 2:49pm
Rosa says:
Biddy:
I think the reason you are so confused about your husband is because you are experiencing “cognitive dissonance”.
Cognitive Dissonance is the feeling of uncomfortable tension that comes from holding 2 conflicting thoughts in the mind at the same time.
You want to believe that your husband is a good man, that he wants to change, and that he loves you. That is what he is telling you, but that is NOT what he is SHOWING you. And then you communicate with his ex-wife, and her accounts are conflicting with what you want to believe about this man.
That is why you have defended your husband to the ex during conversations with her, when she tells you something you do not want to hear.
I hope I am not confusing you even more, but I believe that is where your confusion is coming from.
PLUS, the fact that you are in LOVE with him.
Love is the biggest blinder of all!
I suggest you read the article on this site called, “Love, Sex, Your Brain & Sociopaths” under the category, “Hooked by a Sociopath.”
I believe it will answer a lot of your questions.
I will leave you with a couple more things to remember.
1) If he is being “truthful” with you, he’s getting some type of payoff from it. Sociopaths (and he is one) don’t do anything without getting something in return. Besides, they like to walk along the truth, because it makes their lies more believable.
2) Those tears he keeps crying in front of you are called “Crocodile Tears”. They are not real or sincere. Remember that. Their ability to “cry on cue” is something that still mystifies me. Sounds like he missed his calling to be in motion pictures.
3) My jaw dropped when you said he was not physically abusive towards you. This man gave you not one, but 2 STD’s. That is physical abuse of the worst kind, as far as I am concerned.
You just got married last month?
I understand that you love this man, and want to make it work with him.
But, it will not work out. In fact, it is going to end, and probably very badly.
The question is how much time, energy, money, misery and heartache are you willing to put into this man?
Only you can answer that.
I will leave you with this thought. I spent 8-9 years in a toxic relationship that was NOT AS BAD as what you are involved in here.
The one thing, however, that I want back from that relationship is my TIME. Time is precious, and life goes by in a minute.
I understand your need to “give it a whirl” with your husband, but the prognosis is NOT good. Remember that.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 4:23pm
witsend says:
Biddy,
Everyone has given you wonderful advice. When you have that “conflict” going on in your head, everything you learn here makes sense but also can be very overwhelming…To take it all in.
So besides for everything you are “experiencing” in real life that is confusing you (he is crazymaking on purpose to keep you hooked in), then you have all of this information to take in as well.
It is all the best INFORMATION you will get anywhere for what is happening in your life right now.
Here is one really simple thing to consider. When any of us read your story, we can see the abuse, the lying, cheating, the blaming others. We see it loud and clear. Your intellect knows that it is happening (and can see it is wrong) but your heart is addicted to what he says not what he DOES. Actions speak louder than words.
When someone tells you that it is your fault that they gave you an STD, that is about as abusive as someone can get on an emotional level.
Action= he had sex and gave you an STD.
Words= says not my fault its yours? This is a great example of crazy making.
Does that make any sense to you? None of this is your fault but he will not accept responsibility for his actions so he will pass the blame to you or to others.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 5:52pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Witsend & Biddy,
Biddy, Witsend is totally correct—turn off the SOUND and look at the ACTIONS.
He gave you an STD–so who is RESPONSIBLE FOR HIM having the STD? HIM of course.
What Witsend is calling “crazy making” is the psycho-babble that they give us in an effort to make black appear white, or up appear down, or left appear right—-they are never at falut, if we were not so x, y, or z, then everything would be perfect is what they tell us. All we have to do is to shut up about their lying, cheating, stealing, or whatever else they are doing and then there would be NO PROBLEM! Make sense to you? Not to me.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 16 July 2009 @ 6:57pm
Tilly says:
Biddy:
What part of “get out now you are with someone who could eventually kill you!” don’t you understand?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 3:31am
biddy says:
Maybe I should explain things a little better. We moved straight in with each other immediately after leaving our spouses. He cut off all communication with his ex-wife but I didn’t file for a divorce immediately from my ex…I waited 3-4 months. I also continued talking to my husband and we agreed to continue to be friends. We were highschool sweethearts that got married very young and were married 13 years. We also had joint dogs together and we still wanted to be able to “share” them. We also had a lot of debts and business together that we had to continue as we were still legally married.
All the while, my current husband was pushing me to marry him and even gave me a ring. I didn’t feel that I was ready to marry him and a lot of it was based on the warnings that his ex-wife were passing along to me. It created a lot of tension because I would talk to her and then question him. He never denied anything she had to say about his life with her or even his past before her. He admitted to the cheating and said he had a problem in that he needed a lot of attention and confirmation or he would seek it elsewhere. He also said that his ex-wife was very independent and that he was too “needy” for her. I can trace his cheating on me back to beginning about 6 months after we got together although I’ve been told that he never stopped having sexual encounters with other women even after leaving his wife and coming straight to me…I don’t know if this is true or not.
The one woman that he cheated on me with that he told her he was in love with…and I have communicated with. He said she was there for him when I wasn’t, and that all she was to him was sex. He also said that she was his back-up in case I left him because he doesn’t want to be alone. This woman had the nerve to come to my house and have sex with him there. Did I mention that she, too, was married? She would also meet him on the side of the road and have sex with him in the car! He said he liked her at first but then started to see some things about her that he didn’t like but that he didn’t have the heart to break things off with her. He did break things off with her after I found out. That’s when we talked everything out and he said that he was scared that I was going to leave him because I wouldn’t commit to him or stop talking to my ex. He begged me for a commitment and a chance to show me that he would change. I gave it to him and we started planning our wedding. We didn’t get married until around 7 months later. Since I made that commitment, he has treated me much better and helps out around the house. He says that he is ashamed and embarrassed by his past. He still doesn’t have a job, though, and has never worked steadily since we’ve been together. He still wants my undivided attention or he feels threatened. However, I have not suspected any cheating but I didn’t suspect before, either.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:50am
blueskies says:
Bottom line: THIS IS NOT OKAY!!!
He said, she said, he did, you didnt, his ex did, didnt (he picked this woman up at the side of the road for sex?Some things he didnt like about HER???!…and he wants a marriage???Commitment??? from YOU. This is not okay, this is not how it works this is WRONG!)
He didnt have the heart to break it off with her??! Is he kidding?! what a crock!! He had the kind of heart to do it … That is the shape of his heart!(to quote sting;)
You are putting up with unbelievable amounts of shit… for what? Him being NICE to you??? Helping around the house?? YOUR HOUSE TOGETHER? Should that be a ‘treat’ or a given????!
You talk about this woman and her antics with him like he had nothing to do with it. Its bizarre looking from my current standpoint, but I have been there.xxx
xxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:53am
blueskies says:
WOULD YOU DO IT TO HIM? ( because he is mean to you? slept with a woman on the side of the road?cheated on you?Is using you? NO! Because you LOVE him! Think about that.)
The thing is, it IS fine, if that’s your preference, to have as many sexual encounters as you please, but to get MARRIED and do it behind their wifes back, to say you LOVE someone and lie to them, is screwed up. Period.
I dont think ANYONE with a heart and soul could ACTUALLY say the things he has said to you or behave in the contradictory mannor he has.
Could you do what he does and still tell him you love him?
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 8:04am
Rosa says:
Biddy:
I think I read that your husband plays in a band?
Oh yes…the boys in the band….I’ve never dated a musician (I prefer athletes), but I have seen them in action.
(Athletes are just as bad, by the way)
Biddy, all I can say is, it is a good thing this site is anonymous. If I ever went to a bar/club, and knew that it was YOUR husband in the band, I would go right up to him and punch him in the face.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 11:08am
justabouthealed says:
Biddy,
For me what worked was thinking what ACTIONS could the bad man take to demonstrate he has changed or is working on changing. What made this miraculous change in him? Did he go through therapy? CHANGE is hard. It is even harder to sustain. What, every time you aren’t giving him enough attention he will stray?How about you go to a lawyer with him and draw up some kind of paper stating that if he EVER strays, he hereby gives his permission for an uncontested divorce and that any and all assets are yours. It may be that isn’t legal. If it is no,t have the lawyer help you put everything in your name solely NOW. Your husband has goofed. Big time. If he REALLY means it about being sorry, if he REALLY means it about changing, if he REALLY means it about never cheating, he will agree to all that, as well giving you passwords to his computer, his cell phone and the right to put whatever monitoring devices you want on the car, so you can “trust but verify”. He is on probation. Let him know that. But as long as he doesn’t screw up, you will undo all these actions in 10 years. (You’ve got a LIFE sentence with the std).
If your bad man is like mine, he will suddenly realize he had done NOTHING wrong, he does NOT need to change, and YOU are the one that should be on probabation. LOL!!!
Biddy, don’t ever confuse pity for love. Is this guy a soft spot for you to land? Does he bring out the best in you? Do your friends adore him? Do they say you are so lucky to have him?
Biddy, the person you need to take care of and protect, and be forgiving toward and be in love with is YOU. Love is like two hands coming together in prayer, each held straight up, but pressed against the other straight hand. You take one hand away, the other remains straight and strong. Namaste pose.
But if you are so intertwined…praying in the manner of fingers intertwined and grabbing on to the other hand, when one hand is pulled away, all that is left is the other hand curled up like a claw, ready to grab onto another hand for support. That isn’t love that is interdependence, that is needing someone, using them to keep you propped up, it is not love.
You said “Maybe I should explain things a little better.” No. The details don’t matter. What matters , as others have said, are actions. There is NO excuse, there is NO explanation that justifies ABUSE. NONE. NONE. NONE It matters not what you did, what he has been through, what you said, what he said. NO!
Another thing that will help is to read the TRUE LOVE FRAUD stories. Since our love addiction is not tied up in it, we can see the truth about others stories, and we shake our head and say “She put up with what?!!!” and “She still stayed after that???” and slowly it will hit you that others read your story and likewise can see the truth of what is really going on.
I loved the bad man in my life too.Finally I realized I was not going to survive if I stayed in the relationship and I went no contact. It hurts like hell. But the longer you are away, the more the love will turn to anger, red hot anger, and then, over time, as you realize his brain is not normal, that he can’t be fixed, your anger will turn to pity, but the kind of pity you have for a once nice dog you had, that is now rabid and must be contained with NC. Stay with him and you WILL get rabies.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:07pm
witsend says:
Biddy,
Dear sweet Biddy. A NORMAL person doesn’t have someone “waiting” in the wings just in case things don’t work out between the two of you. A normal person doesn’t sleep with a few woman at a time while married or in a supposidly “commited” relationship. A normal person just doesn’t do BAD things (consistantly) and then excuse everything they have done by BLAMING other people for their mistakes. This guy isn’t loving you. He is abusing you.
And he will not change. The best indication of how he will treat you in the future is how he has treated you already and how he treated those that came before you. EXCEPT that it will progress as time goes on. And he will get worse instead of better.
He is like a toxic drug and he has you addicted to him. All the red flags are there waving in front of you.
He has even admitted that it is all ABOUT him and his feelings (he could care less about yours or the other womans)
He needs alot of attention. He needs someone to be there for him. He wants undivided attention. He doesn’t work (how convenient for him).
LISTEN to what he is saying. It is all about him. It will continue to be all about him. SEE his actions. His actions speak volumes.
What about you? What about how you are feeling? What about the STD? He is discarding this as if it was nothing.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:18pm
blueskies says:
back up woman? He did it because YOU werent there for him? he told her he loved her but you that she was just sex?!! I’m with Rosa right now, I REALLY want to smack this slime bag in the gob.
Forget blood tests, I think that people should have a sociopath test before being allowed to marry!
being promiscuous is not a crime, neither are open relationships when everyone is informed and consenting (not my cup of tea),but these creeps dont want define who they are… they WANT to be in sneaky clandestine situations, we (you, his ex, the roadside girl) are all just his cast to act out his stupid play, we are ephemeral organs!. Grrrrrrrrrrr! this guy has my hackles up big time!
What he is doing and saying to you is so similar to the B/S I swallowed and have taken the last 6 months trying to recover from…
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:18pm
justabouthealed says:
Great article about how we hold on to the nanosecond the guy appears loving or normal and WILL NOT LET GO! It is a great article if you are dealing with conflicting feelings about a man.
http://www.lisaescott.com/foru.....ke-it-true
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:25pm
blueskies says:
anyway, I think you DO get whats going on. and I hope you keep posting (I promise to calm down!lol!x:) and making progress.xx
In the meantime I think the advice you have been given regarding finances is really important. You need to start making an exit strategy and start putting down some money to enable you to get out as soon as you need to. I know you love him, and you are hoping that you wont need to and that he will be true to his word when he says he’s changed… if he does then Hurrah, you have a nice little nest egg, but either way its a good idea.xxx
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:27pm
Jen2008 says:
Justabouthealed said: “Since our love addiction is not tied up in it, we can see the truth about others stories, and we shake our head and say “She put up with what?!!!” and “She still stayed after that???” and slowly it will hit you that others read your story and likewise can see the truth of what is really going on.”
That is soooo true. I remember years prior to my ex P when I worked for a social service agency some women would come in and tell stories of verbal abuse, (mild comparitively speaking to alot of the stories here) and at the time I would wonder why she didn’t kick him to the curb or take some sort of action. I would think I would NEVER put up with that sort of thing.
Fast forward: Not only did I put up with that sort of thing, but I put up with far far worse. I put up with and lived through some stuff I would be ashamed (even now) to tell most people in real life. Not even I understand it and in looking back it horrifies me, so how could I possibly expect someone else to understand it.
So, yes, at any given time there is probably going to be someone on this board who has lived thru something similar as what someone is posting, and because they are not the addict in the relationship they can not only see what is happening, but have lived through it themselves in some manner or other. It is clear to us how it will go down more than likely, but I can soooooooooooo still remember the days when I was so in denial and in the fog that having something written in blood and placed in front of me would have probably been denied or minimized by me.
Time, Biddy, It will take time for you to process and come to a point where you understand and reach a point where you can bring yourself to ttake action. In the meantime, keep reading here and posting and try to work it out in your mind. And try to start squirreling a few bucks here and there away in a secret hideaway that your husband does not know about so you can use it if you come to a point where you make a firm decision as to what to do. –Jenn
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:28pm
blueskies says:
AND… in a WAY you are lucky – you got here BEFORE the discard, you have a chance to walk away from this with something if you are clever.x I didnt know what had hit me until it had already gone leaving me broke financially and emotionally.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:31pm
Jen2008 says:
I guess everything is relative to one’s experience because I actually spent alot of time actually praying to be discarded.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 12:47pm
justabouthealed says:
Biddy, There are many, many other readers of LF who are in a very similar situation, but not posting, so thank you for sharing so openly of your questions, your doubts, your TRUE feelings, not what you THINK posters like mysefl want to hear. If you keep wondering “Yeah, but what about…..?” do post it, even if someone like me has said details don’t matter, abuse is abuse. Because we’ve all been there, my friends got sick of my “yeah, but maybe he is just…” . This IS the place to verbalize all that. After two years, once in awhile I still lapse into crazy thinking. A romantic song will trigger my old way of looking at things, and it feels embarrassing to post those feelings if two weeks ago I was bragging that I’m SO over all that, but I know people on here understand. Two steps forward, one fall back.
So keep your TRUE feelings coming, no matter what! WE understand. I kept ramming my head into a brick wall for years….as I said CHANGE is hard, especially when all our brain chemicals are upset and in an addiction mode!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:03pm
justabouthealed says:
Oh, and I forgot the point I started that post with….that your honest postings are helping others who are thinking “but let me explain” or “Yeah, but he seems so sincere”. So you not only help yourself, but you help others.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:05pm
justabouthealed says:
Jen, blueskies, I was writing my post and didn’t see yours, we are all on the same page about the need for folks to keep posting the truth, the good, the bad the ugly.
GEEZ!!! I got GREAT advisc from therapists that often took me 6 months to a year to actually DO. I knew it was great advice, I knew it was right, I just couldn’t do it!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:13pm
OxDrover says:
Okay, at the risk of sounding “judgmental” let me say the following:
One of the cardinal signs of a personality disordered person is a pervasive (long standing) pattern of DISHONESTY, as in SERIAL CHEATING….this man has been married before and cheated (apparently from Biddy’s story) with others besides cheating on his previous wife with Biiddy. He has ALSO cheated on Biddy , and kept “back up” women just in case Biddy dumped him. He does NOT have a job but is now “helping with the house” more since she caught him at the cheat—sooooo, where is ANY PATTERN of ACTUAL HONESTY AND TAKING RESPONSIBILITY AS AN ADULT ON HIS PART?
My P-XBF cheated with MULTIPLE WOMEN for 32 years on his x-wife before she caught him flat out cheating and kicked his butt to the curb and tossed him out of the house. WHY would I think that I was special and he would not CHEAT ON ME? Yet, I was so needy and afraid of losing him that even after I found out the above facts of his SERIAL CHEATING and even his CONTINUED cheating while dating me, my heart was broken and I was in denial for quite some time.
As I have grown in wisdom and strength I have realized that anyone who has a PATTERN OF DISHONESTY in whatever venue is not a “good relationship risk.”
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 1:54pm
blueskies says:
JAH, yep. Its how it goes.xx
I often think i am being soooooo slow in absorbing the stuff that is right in front of my face and I KNOW is all true… it IS going in… but change IS slow.
Maybe for me it needs to be… I am putting myself back together re-aligning things that have been askew for a long time…I dont want to do a cowboy job of it.x
I too appreciate Biddy’s honesty in her posts (I would not have posted when in her position, I think it shows a strength of character, that I can only wish for) and I admire her for it.
I agree that her way of expressing is so open it is going to resonate with lots of people it sure has with me.x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 2:02pm
OxDrover says:
Blueskies, I agree with you entirely about Biddy’s posts, admitting our own “faults” or poor choices is difficult for us, but I see NOTHING IN HER POSTS that show a PERVASIVE PATTERN OF LYING AND CHEATING ON HER PART. Note that I said PERVASIVE PATTERN. We ALL do things we know we shouldn’t do at one time in our lives or another. The only way, however, we can forgive ourselves or expect others to forgive us, is to admit what we have done, be accountable for the results and consequences of these things, then decide to make better decisions in the future. I see that Biddy has done that in this instance. I applaud her for her honesty.
The personality disordered person, however, does not take accountability or acknowledge fault, but blames consequences for their behavior, or even the behavior itself, on others. If they do appologize for it, it is words ONLY and no permanent change in their behavior. Look at the ACTIONS, not listen to the words. Him “helping around the house” more, but failing to get a job, still means that he is just (to me) for the time being trying to convince her he is “changing” but as long as he is NOT WORKING AND HELPING AROUND THE HOUSE AS WELL, his words ring empty to me. In my estimation, if he can’t get a job because the economy is in the tank, then he ought to be doing 110% of the house and yard work and have dinner on the table when she comes home from her job, AND spending at least several hours looking for ANY job, even in fast food or wahtever.
Of course, it IS easier for us to “see” What he is doing (or at least think we see) than it iwas/is for us to see our own situation which might actually be more “crazy” than hers. I know in the past, I have been the QUEEN OF DENIAL!!!! Crown me with an IRON SKILLET!!! BOINK!!!
PArt of the healing process for any of us though is to accept REALITY and see it for the UGLY THING IT IS when we are involved with a psychopath, rather than to paint it up in pretty colors and pretend it is benign.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 3:08pm
blueskies says:
“PArt of the healing process for any of us though is to accept REALITY and see it for the UGLY THING IT IS when we are involved with a psychopath, rather than to paint it up in pretty colors and pretend it is benign.”
Amen Oxylicious;)
Its a toughy but it is essential.x
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 3:32pm
FreeatPeaceFinally says:
blueskies you said it all in one sentence:
You must believe EVERY word that I say, I simply CANNOT be in a relationship with someone who does not trust me, I will of course be lying to you about every single thing.
So I was not losing my mind back then.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 4:18pm
OxDrover says:
Dear FreeatPeacefinally,
Welcome to Love Fraud, glad you are out of that problem, you are NOT losing your mind…that’s a comforting thought once we get to where we are FREE finally!
This is a great place to validate your sanity. glad yo uare here. Again, welcome.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 5:16pm
Tilly says:
Rosa:
“f I ever went to a bar/club, and knew that it was YOUR husband in the band, I would go right up to him and punch him in the face.”
Rosa! I LOVE YOU SOOO MUCH!! YOU are my kinda gal ( don’t worry I’m straight). I laughed with joy when I read this! You have made my day!. xoxoxoxxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 6:43pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
Do you know the 1991 movie “Thelma & Louise” starring Susan Sarandon and Geena Davis?
You should watch it if you can get your hands on it.
WE ARE THELMA & LOUISE!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:50pm
OxDrover says:
I think I can see that I am going to have to get another donkey, maybe I can name this one SMART Ass, so Rosa and Tilly and I can all three RIDE—unless Tilly wants to bring her Roo to ride, I have an extra skillet Rosa, Tilly has her boomarang!
I wish it was as simple as punching them out! Or fleshing them out for the hogs! Or sending them to jail or sending them to Devil’s island! Or branding them with a large P on the forehead. I think the Ps have been with us since Satan slithered into the Garden of Eden just for the purpose of causing trouble! The best we can do, unfortunately, I think is to learn, protect ourselves and pass the word on to others who will listen. (((hugs)))) I love you guys! thanks for being here on LF!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 7:53pm
Tilly says:
Oxy:
I love the “branding with large P on their forehead”idea….especially since all of my life, I had written on my forehead, “psychopaths apply here”!
Rosa:
T and L, yep! Thats’ us Rosa! except when you and I drive over the cliff we end up on the right side of God. And we are telling Him that we are ever so humble, and even though we know all things are beyond our comprehension, well, the whole “psychopath” idea ? …it might not be such a good one.
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 9:22pm
Rosa says:
Tilly:
The driving-over-the-cliff ending would NEVER happen to us.
We would make it all the way to Mexico.
P.S. You are FEISTY & FUNNY tonight. I love it!!
(Report abusive comment)
Friday, 17 July 2009 @ 9:47pm
biddy says:
The information you all have provided describes his action in ways that I guess I can’t or won’t see. It does seem that he has an excuse for everything and a lot of his excuses make sense to me. His ex-wife has came down on my pretty hard about my placing most of the blame on the women that he cheated on me with. She said that’s why she can talk so openly with me. That she never blamed the women once she found out about them which was AFTER he left her for me. She’s 18 years older than me and 8 years older than the ex that is now my husband. She says that she knows how my husband is…a predator…and that these other women were targeted by him and just more victims. She has often said that he could charm the first lady out of her pants. So, she says she has never blamed the women and keeps telling me that she wants to help spare me the pain and confusion that she endured. She says that I am too young and too pretty to waste my life on him. My husband himself says that she is a good person but that she has never gotten over him and is trying to cause problems because she wants him back. I don’t think so. She’s remarried to a man that she seems very much in love with. He is giving her a wonderful life and they look very happy together in their myspace pics. She claims that she’s always been a person who has tried to help people and that it a lot of the reason that she got sucked in by my husband and ended up marrying him.
Oh, and he IS doing pretty much all the house and yard work and does cook dinner most days. He DOES make a little money playing in the band that covers his child support but that’s about it. I pay for the rest of the living expenses. He says he wants a brand new start. He was laid off from the job that he worked in the town where he was involved with the woman that he cheated on me with and says that he doesn’t want to go back there. He says he wants to start fresh in the town where I work. He has looked for work some but we live in a very rural area of the south and there’s not much work out there with the economy the way it is. On the other hand, his ex told me that he had 8 jobs during the 8 years that she was with him and that he’ll NEVER work a job where a boss is keeping a close eye on him because he uses his work time to cheat and has to have freedom to do it. Most of his past jobs have offered a lot of freedom…this is true.
It’s just so hard for me to believe that he has no conscience! He seems to be honestly sorry and ashamed of his past behavior and really wants to change. He keeps saying that he knows that if he doesn’t change…he’ll end up all alone someday and that’s the last place he wants to find himself. He’s 41 now and says it’s time for him to grow up. He says it really bothers him that everyone knows the things he has done. His ex says it only bothers him because now he’ll have to be extra careful and may not be able to target victims so easily.
I really don’t know what to believe. I have had very little experience in relationships. I married very young and was with that man for 13 years until my current husband came along and swept me off my feet. My first husband wasn’t that great, either. He had no respect for women and I’m pretty sure that he cheated on me, too. I had heard rumors many times that he had said things to women he worked with that he shouldn’t have said…getting way out of line.
My current husband’s ex says I now have another man just as bad, if not worse and that the only way I will ever see it is to get away from him and his influence so I’m not allowing him to fill my head full of lies. He says she’s just trying to split us up. She says she’s just trying to help. Sometimes, I think maybe if I didn’t communicate with her, then maybe I wouldn’t doubt him so much.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:20am
Escapee says:
Oh Biddy Biddy Biddy
Cut your losses girl and get out now! I have read your posts and the last one quoting ‘maybe I wouldn’t doubt him so much’. I don’t think there’s any ‘doubt’ about this man whatsoever. He will turn on the tears, he’ll be helpful around the house and all the other things that you find appealing/endearing/that melt your heart. Why? Because you are the cash cow. While he has you in place, he doesn’t have to take responsibility for all the things he’s too lazy to do for himself. He has the stability of the secure relationship to fulfill his neediness while all the time, picking up anything else/other women (and god knows what else by the sound of it) outside of the relationship.
You’re being blindsided, hoodwinked, conned, manipulated and used – sorry to be so harsh but how can you be in any ‘doubt’ when this sub-human has already infected you with a life-threatening disease.
The ‘nice’ side is the illusion. The reality is a heartless, abusive, selfish, manipulative sociopath who feels only for himself.
Be brave and keep posting here for strength.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 6:49am
witsend says:
Biddy,
If this man has cheated on his ex wife and already has cheated on you then why do you believe that he is going to change?
He didn’t hold a job for any length of time when he was with her. He is not working now when he is with you.
He cheated on her. Now he has cheated on you.
He gave you an STD and blamed YOU that he cheated.
What is it that you see in his ACTIONS that is proving to you that this is a good man?
What has he done to treat you any better than he has her?
Promises and what he says don’t count. What has he actually done differently?
What she say (his ex) isn’t what is making you doubt him. What he says (the lies) and what he does (the opposite of what he says) is what is making you doubt him.
Look at his actions and don’t take what he says so seriously. He is lying to you. That is what she is trying to tell you. That if you step away from him and clear your head of his lies, things will look so much differently. You will see this for what it is.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 7:08am
blueskies says:
Hi Biddy:) I am so glad you are back here posting again today:)xx Even though you say you are confused, I read your posts and it’s all there my lovely! You got all it all there and you are piecing the jumbled up puzzle pieces together. You seem to be a very intelligent honest hearted woman and I know you will work all this out:)
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 7:30am
Escapee says:
Witsend
Right on! well said.
BIDDY – by the number of comments coming back to you – can you see there are an awful lot of people here who are ‘very alarmed’ and concerned for you? I hope so. We’ve all been, if not WHERE you are, somewhere like it. None of us is an expert but we have mostly all reached the same conclusions for ourselves – that the only way out is to GET OUT – the quicker you do this FOR YOURSELF, the more damage you’ll be able limit. You say you’re 30 – well, are you going to waste the next precious 10 years of your life on someone who lies and cheats on you, has no sense of respect or responsibility for your well-being and who leeches off you financially? Well, if you want to end up with £100,000 worth of debt and have your health wrecked – do what I did and stay with him – if, however, you want a normal life with a chance of a proper balanced and loving relationship – leave this half-human monster behind and GET OUT.
Sorry to be harsh but this is potentially what’s waiting for you if you carry on, and maybe worse.
All love to you and keep posting here for strength.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 7:35am
blueskies says:
As far as him saying his wife is only say these things because she wants him back… biddy do you really believe that? Going on what she has SAID and how she BEHAVES, dont you think it would be an odd thing to want? It doesnt ADD up and you KNOW it. You must look at the evidence of the behaviour in front of you and not talk yourself out of what you know in your gut to be true.
I was very angry at a friend of mine(the S/P’s best mate for over 18 years) for not telling me what this man was like! I couldnt believe he hadn’t!! But it turns out that along with being duped almost more than anyone else, he had decided not to tell me what a snake he had been in the past because he believed the S/P loved me and had CHANGED.I hope that is food for thought. These creatures DO NOT change.
We are programmed to give them the benefit of the doubt even when presented with overwhelming evidence, there is completely fascinating thread on here about that (someone help me out with which one cuz I forget), and that is HOW they can continue to operate.x
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:03am
blueskies says:
It was a subject brought up by Eternal Student on the 15th, on Oxy’s article about spotting the covert P/S in the wild. She put a link in to a blog that is REALLY helpful to read.
here is her/his post:)
“They may pass off the behavior as “Oh, that’s just John””
This illustrates a VERY important concept: People typically discount the standard behavior of a person, no matter how bad it is. Sociopaths COUNT on that; they know that if they’re jerks all the time, they paradoxically get away with it in a way they couldn’t do if they were only jerks sometimes, because people remember, and form their opinions based on, our ATYPICAL behaviors. They act as if everyone’s standard behavior is the same level of “goodness vs badness,” which works beautifully most of the time but is tragically wrong in the case of those who are markedly bad…. and, sadly, those of us who are markedly GOOD, which explains people’s bizarre lack of judging in your favor even when the sociopath has been awful and you’ve been a SAINT.
I don’t know how well I’ve explained this; I found it here
http://omniverse.blogspot.com/…..2524588861
so read that if you want to get the entire description.”
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:17am
biddy says:
I’m really sorry to be a pain but I’ve edited an exchange between the ex and myself–to protect our identities. I shouldn’t have written her and dumped the way I was feeling on her. I later wrote her back and told her that I wasn’t feeling well that day and was extremely irritable due to PMS. I would like to get your opinions on whether you feel this woman is just trying to cause problems or if she is really coming from a sincere place. She knows one of the women that he cheated on me with but only because the woman sought her out. They later talked and I have talked to the woman, as well. I know that what she says about the other woman is ture…even my husband has admitted it. Here’s the conversation. I hope it isn’t too long but I just really can’t figure out who I should trust…her or my husband!
—————– Original Message —————–
From: Biddy
To: Ex-wife
Date: Jun 25, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Oh yeah…
Can I ask you a question? Do you think I made a mistake by marrying him? Do you think he will change or has changed? I think I have proved to him that I love him by leaps and bounds and that I would stand behind him no matter what. Do you think that means anything to him at all or do you think he thinks I’m a push over that that he can just string along? He says he loves me beyond belief and has never stayed with a woman with all the crap that we have been through together but he feels he loves me enough to make it work. He said he saw the other woman because he was ready to kill himself because he couldn’t handle our roller coaster realtionship and she helped him get through and that she was the only positive in his life at the time and he really needed someone to talk to and it just led to sex. He said it was a mistake and a regret but he was glad that it happened because it taught him a lesson. Do you beleive that honestly?
From: The Ex Wife
To: Biddy
Date: Jun 25, 2009 12:13 PM
Subject: RE: Oh yeah…
Well….I may very well be the wrong person to answer that question. I will tell you this. He kept following the woman he cheated on with you around and trying to talk to her. She didn’t pay him much mind because she was already talking to that other guy and she and her hsuband were already heading for divorce court. She said that she finally asked your husband (live-in boyfriend at the time) what he wanted and he told her “sex”. The woman said she knew that it sounded horrible that she said to herself “okay, why not?” but she said that she just really didn’t have a lot of respect for herself at the time. He didn’t approach her telling her that he needed a friend, etc. He told her straight out what he wanted and then after a few times of having sex…he started telling her that he loved her and she believed that she loved him, too. And, you know something else…God…I hate to admit this but he just has a way about him. He pursued me off and on for a year and a half–I was just too stupid to realize that’s what he was doing. I, like her, was in a marriage that was long over with for years! One day, your husband finally made his move…chased me around the island in my kitchen wanting “just a kiss”. I kept refusing and asked him what was wrong with him…he said “I’m sex crazy”. Girlfriend! That should have been my FIRST red flag. He kept on and on wanting “just a kiss” and I finally said I’d give him “just a peck”…actually to get rid of him! For some reason, the way he approached me didn’t scare me…it flattered me…but I think it was because I was at an all-time low in my life. He knows how to zoom in on women in that state of mind somehow. The woman he cheated on you with was at an all-time low in her life, too.
All I have to base what he might or might not do is his past and my own experience with him. However, I have picked up on some things that you’ve said that would have set red flags off if I were you. But it wouldn’t have set anything off when I was with him because I was so caught up in what I thought I had with him. And, I will tell you this…he hasn’t made you any promises that you’ve shared with me that he didn’t make to me, too. And, I say this as God as my witness!
If you want me to give you examples of what I consider to be red flags that you should have picked up on…I will.
From: Biddy
To: Ex-wife
Date: Jun 25, 2009 10:34 AM
Subject: RE: Oh yeah…
What are the red flags you are picking up on?
From: Ex-wfe
To: Biddy
Date: June 25, 2009 1:13 AM
Subject: RE: Oh yeah…
Well…let’s see…I’ve picked up on a lot in the language that you use:
–You always say that you “hope” he “will” change. Yet you went ahead and married him. I wish you could have waited until you were absolutely CERTAIN that he had changed.
–You allowed him to convince you that his cheating was YOUR fault and because you wouldn’t commit to him or marry him. That was the most ridiculous thing I’d ever heard of. I don’t care what you were doing and if you were threatening to leave every hour…he should have been on his hands and knees begging you instead of sleeping with other women and telling one, that we know of for sure, how much he loved her and for her to just hang in there and wait on him. If he had of needed that SO badly from YOU–his only true love–he would have focused ALL his energy on YOU and getting a commitment from you…not other women. This leads to the next flag.
–He’s expressed his terrible fear of being alone. Everyone does to a certain extent but his is WAY extreme. Its puts the woman he’s with in a terrible position. It’s like you know that if he feels the least little bit threatened (by things that the normal person doesn’t feel threatened by) that he may cheat or leave you. Even though, YOU as a NORMAL person, knows that you are doing everything in your power to make him feel secure.
–He’s done nothing to try to grow up…like seek steady work so that he can give you a better less stressful life. This shows his lack of concern or respect for you. He still seems to think that love and sex are all a couple needs to survive…NOT! And, look out, if you start to feel too stressed about finances and put a little pressure on him, he’ll accuse you of being “materialistic” even if you’re worried about money to pay the electric bill!
–He includes his mother in the relationship too much. He declares a great love for his mother so he uses her to make promises of faithfulness and treating you right to. Or, he’ll swear on her life. He did that with me. Made me sick. I wanted him to hold himself accountable to ME and only me…what did SHE have to do with it? He’s over 40 years old! Bottom line, she doesn’t give a shit what he does. Whatever he does will be alright with her in the end. All he has to do is tell her that he’s unhappy and that this or that (possibly a woman) makes him happy and that’s fine by her. He took me right over there to meet her…insisted that I go…even though he was still living with his wife! And, when his wife struck out at him over me…with good reason…it was SHE that was the problem in his mother’s eyes. His mother never had another word to say to her although she had treated her just as much like family as she once did me and now you. I’ve told you that you can’t trust ANY of them! And, it came very clear to me during my marriage to him that his mother is the reasons behind ALL his problems! It’s not his dad! He knows that his dad disapproves of his lifestyle and that’s why he doesn’t like being around him. And, I’m still not so sure that his dad even molested him! It just never added up.
–From what you say…he’s still just as “needy” as ever and feels that he deserves to have his needs fulfilled. But like you said…what about yours?
It’s hard for me to do this without adding my own 2 cents. I just about have to base the behavior of him that you describe on the behavior that I, too, witnessed out of him. BUT, I can tell that by what you say very little about him has changed so I would have to doubt other changes that he has promised to make. Understand what I’m saying? I mean, stop and really think about it! And, where does he get off telling you that he never stayed with any other woman through what you all have been through? He gave you two STDS! He didn’t stay with any of the others because they threw him out when they caught him cheating or he up and left them for somebody else! If I think of more, I’ll let you know. He has a way of twisting the mind of the woman that loves him. It’s almost like he brainwashes us or has us under some kind of spell or something. I can’t really explain it but whatever it is, it makes us believe everything he tells us. He’s SO convincing and loving even when he’s out doing just horrible things behind our backs.
Please don’t go home and fight with him about things that I say. You have to use your own judgment. But you know what I really think will happen someday? I think you’re going to grow tired of tending to his neediness and fearing that he’s going to get someone else all the time and it will be YOU that bails. I can’t say when or how it will happen but that’s what I think will come to pass someday. I think you’re going to wake up and find that you’re no longer happy with the situation. That’s just what I think. A man like him wears on a person and sooner or later…it starts to get old.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:37am
blueskies says:
I’ve just had a quick read through and this woman seems genuine and objective caring and intelligent. I dont get a sniff of malice or triumph over you. She SO has his number. You MUST see that.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:50am
blueskies says:
I think that most of the posters who have responded here have said exactly the same thing – and believe me biddy we are NOT trying to get back with you husband. Like Rosa says, what you are experiencing is cognative dissonance. Read about it and start work:)x
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:52am
blueskies says:
P.S you are not being a ‘pain’, you are being extremely open and honest and its completely fine.x
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:55am
blueskies says:
‘–You allowed him to convince you that his cheating was YOUR fault and because you wouldn’t commit to him or marry him. That was the most ridiculous thing I’d ever heard of. I don’t care what you were doing and if you were threatening to leave every hour…he should have been on his hands and knees begging you instead of sleeping with other women and telling one, that we know of for sure, how much he loved her and for her to just hang in there and wait on him. If he had of needed that SO badly from YOU–his only true love–he would have focused ALL his energy on YOU and getting a commitment from you…not other women.’ YOU KNOW SHE IS RIGHT HERE DONT YOU?! YOU CANNOT LOVE SOME AND DO WHAT HE DID! YOU SIMPLY CANNOT!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:03am
blueskies says:
Also biddy you CAN write to her, she, like us here is indicating to you strongly that you CAN. You are not dumping your stuff on anyone, you are asking for help in understanding WTF is going on in your life. It is okay to do that!! (I just recently learnt that:)
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:19am
blueskies says:
‘he said it was a mistake and a regret but he was glad that it happened because it taught him a lesson. Do you beleive that honestly?’
Question is DO YOU biddy. Christ girl you wouldn’t be asking if you did… trust yourself and your instincts.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:25am
Rosa says:
Biddy:
In one of my other posts, I told you that what your husband is telling you is NOT what he is SHOWING you. And actions speak louder than words, right?
The same applies to you, Biddy.
You keep saying in your posts how much you love your husband, and how much he helps around the house, etc.
But, for some reason, you are here at LoveFraud seeking advice.
You are skeptical about his ex-wife’s motives, but you keep contacting her.
Your words do NOT match your actions, either.
This contradiction is telling me something.
YOU KNOW, BIDDY!!! DEEP DOWN, IN YOUR GUT, YOU ALREADY KNOW THAT YOU ARE MARRIED TO A SON-OF-A-BITCH!!
The thing is, if you ACCEPT what you ALREADY KNOW (and deep down, you know you are with a disordered individual), and get out of DENIAL, you will have to take ACTION of some sort. And right now, you are afraid/reluctant to take action, for whatever reason. (I just paraphrased some advice that OxDrover gave me a while back, but I think it also applies to you, Biddy).
I read the correspondence between you and the ex-wife. To me, she seems completely honest & sincere. She has no alterior motives, from what I can see.
In fact, she is acting as your “Guardian Angel” through all of this. You should be thanking her for all that she has done for you. Not every ex-wife would be this forthcoming and helpful.
Your husband does not want you talking to her, because he knows she’s got his number.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:36am
witsend says:
Biddy,
This woman is saying things you already know.
She is not lying. He is lying when he says he will change.
He lies to you because you are his meal ticket. That is why he had the woman “waiting in the wings” as well. Someone has to take care of his needs, if not you then her.
No one can convince you to get out of this relationship. It is a decision only you can make.
You will never have a true partnership with this man. If he cheated on you so early in your relationship you will endure YEARS of the same treatment if you stay. You will also be the head breadwinner in the relationship. He might get a job every once in awile but the jobs will come and go. MOSTLY it will be you working and taking “care” of him.
This is his pattern. He is 40 years old and this is what he does.
And it worked for him in the past and it is WORKING for him now.
So understand that your relationship will consist of him having his “needs” met and it will be your JOB to fufill them whatever they may be. That will be your relationship. He has even told you that in his own words.
If you do ONE thing for yourself, if you choose to stay in this relationship, (I pray that you don’t) but if you do…..DO NOT have a child with this man.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:52am
archerjf says:
I read the post about sociopaths changing as they get older. DON”T believe it! The one I am involved with is 63 yo and I am the 3rd woman he has done this to that I know of. I am sure there are more. He is looking for the next one now. I haven’t lived with him in a year and he was in prison part of that time. I am filing for an annulment of the marriage for fraud. He didn’t tell me about his legal problems. He is wanting to come back now because he has no place to go but I am sure that he would only stay long enough to find someone else to leave with and he can do that from where he is. Age doesn’t make them better it just makes them slower.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:23pm
sabrina says:
Witsend and all,- Just wanted to say Hi I hope you are doing well. I took a break from computer for awhile to get some much needed work done and R&R as well.
Great advice to Biddy. Of course, I agree wholeheartedly as this situation is very “cookie cutter” to the crazy making we have all endured here on LF.
You really dont see how much peace and contentment you are giving up by being a part of these idiots “self induced” life sentences. The incarceration that you find yourself in can not effectively be realized (at least for me it wasn’t) until NOW- when they are truly GONE. Almost a year n/c later, as the drama FINALLY has subsided- I realize the air around me is lighter, less filled with tension, insecurity, and fear of the unknown.
Deep down, I was always in fear of the moment the shoe would drop, so to speak. I never knew what was going to happen, but the stress of the distrust, gut renching uneasiness my spirit had became accustomed to- like a disease spreading into every fiber of my being was sutley there.
Now, I can’t believe that at the time, I thought all the “unrest” my spirit consistently endured was WORTH it. That is part of the fog. At the time, It never occured to me that I HAD A CHOICE. THe P makes your wishes, your security, your precious life NULL and VOID. It is truly brainwashing of the worst kind. The P makes you get into the place that you think you need him , when that is the LIE. In fact, he needs you- his supply- to accomplish his demonic plans of destruction. Then when you have no more to give, he has seemingly taken your soul- he will leave you without looking back.
You can not put a price on the GOd given peace that we can have by being in the light- not in the darkness. I now realize that I am free to focus on my journey that God wants for me as “old things are passed away”.
Our God is not the author of confusion- He says “my peace I leave with you.” xoxo,
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 1:25pm
Escaped says:
Heres another….
You must be LOYAL to me at all times, although I do not earn it by being loyal. Disloyalty on your part is violation of any commandment already stated, any I make up in the future, (even if you don’t know them), or any action that can possibly be perceived by me as disloyalty, (which is anything, depending on my mood, desire to devalue you, or need to find an excuse to misbehave, spend, drink, or commit adultery).
Respect will be given to me even though I do nothing to earn it. You on the other hand must earn respect, (in the outside world that is, because no one earns mine.)
…Just thought I would add my two cents worth based on my experience.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 2:31pm
witsend says:
Sabrina,
Good to hear from you! I hope you are doing well and “getting out” a bit and having some fun.
I have been trying to focus more on my work to and yet I still find myself coming here (often) reading and “taking in” alot.
I haven’t “talked” much here about my son lately. I am still laboring over the issues he presents and really trying to figure out if there is anything that could “help” him. We went through that 6 week program. Parenting With Love & Limit.
I am trying to look closely at his interactions with other people and also trying to take my emotion out of the picture when I look at the “big picture” of him.
My father in law stopped by today and he said something VERY interesting to me. We were talking about my son and he said that he and my MIL have had many discussions about my son and that I shouldn’t blame myself as he is “just like his father”. He has NEVER spoken to me seriously about my son or any of the issues I have told them about. And what I have told them is VERY little.
AND of course they are not talking about a personality disorder or Bi Polar or anything like an S/P/N as this has never been mentioned EVER with these people. And they don’t know the HALF of what my son is really like anyways. They were refering to his “know it all” attitude and his doing things his way….The arguing about everything and always wanting to right, etc. These are some of the things I have shared with them at different times. (not the really scarey stuff, that I am REALLY concerned about) However when he said that I was really curious about what he meant exactly? He RARELY if ever says anything about his son (my sons father) that isn’t almost in a “sacred” way. (because he is deceased)
I found the remark to be unlike him and really made me wonder what he meant deep down.
My MIL is the queen of denial with her own son (and always has been) so I pick very carefully what I choose to tell them. Most of what I have told my mother in law in the past has been used against me!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 5:16pm
biddy says:
What I feel like I want to do is just get on with my life with my husband. The ex keeps insisting that he is a sociopath and will NEVER change. She even defends his “back-up” woman that he cheated on me with and says that she was just a victim like every other woman…including me. I’ve also considered telling the woman’s husband what she did because I don’t think it’s fair that I have to suffer while she goes one with her life as though nothing has happened. I think if I stop talking to the ex about him that everything will die down and we’ll be able to get on with our lives. I really don’t feel that he is an incurable sociopath, I see him as a man with a very good heart that his ex never really knew and am willing to stand by him if for no other reason than he is a friend as well as my husband. He has told me that he never felt like he could be himself with the ex and open up to her. He says he’s totally comfortable with me and has been totally honest with me about the things he has done in his life against me and all the other women including the ex that talks to me. He said this is why he felt he could discuss his issues with me. Other people who were close to him and his ex have told me that she never really knew him. When I wrote and told her this, she got pretty upset and told me that I was right and that she didn’t ever really know him and if she had of she wouldn’t have given him a half second of her time much less 8 years of her life. I think he really just feels insecure and needs a lot of attention because he had some problems during his childhood.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:30pm
PInow says:
Biddy, I am not reaching out to my ex’s new lover because I am afraid her reaction will be similar to yours. I can only say that I thought in my arrogance that he’d changed, learned from previous mistakes and will now be different. Right!!! Hire a Pi if you wonder, have him tracked at all times while he’s not with you and check his computer. you might quickly find what the ex is warning you against.
I have now entered a different stage: I am sorry for the woman he’s with now. It is fine to be with a two year old, but to feel that your adult partner has the mentality and emotional needs of a two year old is a huge burden to take on. Sorry for my directness, but such a guy is bound to run at the first sign of a serious problems. So, you will forever wonder if he’s truthful, honest, and loyal. And history may repeat itself. Also, each one of us is special, but the cynic in me wonders if he has truly recognized how special you are. Mine had two women on the side ALWAYS, in case he got kicked out. At all times, the man had willing Motherly women, ready to bestow their love on him in recognition of his child-like needs. I have never known such disrespect, while he was the first one to point out the guilt of cheaters…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 8:54pm
Jen2008 says:
Biddy,
Ah, nothing quite like a good competition.
Your husband is freaking BRILLIANT! He has cleverly tapped into your COMPETITIVE side. You are competing with his ex wife to prove you are better than her, that YOU are more understanding than her, that YOU are the one who knows him better than she ever could have, that YOU are the one he will be HONEST with, that YOU and not her OR all those other women are the ONE and ONLY woman he will remain FAITHFUL to and LOYAL to and LOVE and ALL you have to do is be the one woman who KNOWS him and UNDERSTANDS him and ACCEPTS him WARTS AND ALL and do backflips in the understanding and tolerating all kinds of horrible crap (read infidelities and std’s and unemployment with you supporting his ass and heaven knows what else).
BUT No one can understand and love him like YOU do, he can’t be honest with anyone else like he can with YOU, if you knock yourself out being LOYAL to him and UNDERSTANDING of him and (fill in the blanks) of him, then HE will be FAITHFUL to YOU. You are the SPECIAL one.
SO compete away Biddy and he has carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants because you are so busy understanding him so you can hang onto him. Sorry for the bluntness but I KNOW THIS GAME WELL because my ex played it with me too and like you I fell for the bullshit hook line and sinker for the longest.
But like me, I imagine it is gonna take you a good long while to see the light and I know you will reach the light in your own time. So, I’ll just keep you in my prayers. Jenn
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 9:39pm
justabouthealed says:
Biddy, a good man in love does not talk about HIS needs. He is anxious to please you. He wants to do things for you. His greatest joy is seeing you laugh. For both of you, the other person’s needs are ALMOST as important to you as your own.
You are capable of that kind of love.
But he isn’t. For him, it is all about what you can give to him. It is not about what he can give to you.
He seems more like your child than your husband.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:22pm
justabouthealed says:
These bad men get us off on the wrong track, saying “look over here” when the real issue is somewhere else.
He didn’t cheat because of what you did. He cheated because he IS sex crazy. He cheated because he wanted sex and he didn’t care about the impact on anyone but him.
My mom was not perfect by a long shot. But she gave me one good piece of advice. “If you have to ask yourself does he really love me, the answer is no.”
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:29pm
PInow says:
There is no smoke without a fire. if I had been forewarned about my ex by his relatives, I would have given it a much more serious consideration. While my relatives warned me, I ignored them because they had no history, but had I heard any of his real history, it would have at least put a doubt in my mind. I am not sure who wants to live with doubts in their mind, but I can say this much: not me!!
My ex was great and put me first. That is, when we were together. pathological lying got him all he ever thought he wanted. When I caught him, he shed the “caring” mask and boy did I see the ugliness. That lack of humanity that generations have noticed and we continue to ignore…
None of us are perfect. But, if he really wanted to prove to you that he was a worthy someone, he’d be working, staying away from women and sex (including you) and showing how responsible and trustworthy he’s become. Many of us in our responses to your post, note how much alike these creatures are. I just hope you are not going to waste your life looking through the rose colored glasses. Life is too precious to live in denial and a make belief. And – if he were that great, he would not hurt any of these other women. The relationships I have had with NON-Ps have all turned into friendships, long lasting, mutually respectful adult friendships. I would not ever contact my ex non-Ps’ wives and girlfriends to warn them. It simply did not work out between us, I wish them well and from time to time, I can call and chat and exchange ideas, and most of their partners are ok with this.
So, ask yourself HOW MUCH does one have to hurt to keep trying to open your eyes so that you will be the sward of justice? Sorry, we’ve all been saying things you probably did not want to hear. Some of us are less blunt, some are regrettably more so (me), but we do share the same pain and don’t wish it to another (besides the Ps who may not even have the capacity to feel such pain anyway).
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 10:45pm
witsend says:
Biddy,
I find it amazing that you want to tell the other womans husband about the affair because it isn’t fair that you should suffer and she can just go on as if nothing happened. (what about your husband going on as if nothing has happened)
Your suffering was caused by your husband cheating on you, why is she the one you hold accountable instead of him?
And it is amazing that you think if you stop talking to his Ex wife that “all will die down”, as if she is the “root” of your problems in your marriage. She really is just giving you fair warning. You are asking the questions….So their must be doubt on your account to even ask the questions. She is not the bad guy here she is only the messenger.
And what is really amazing is that after he cheats ON both his ex wife and you his new wife, you are willing to believe that (he is ok) but these women are the “problem”.
Even though he is the one who created all this pain, Just because HE said he is comfortable with you and can discuss with you his issues, it is all going to be ok….
WOW…..He really has done a number on you……The reason his Ex wife sees the other women as victims is that she does know him better than you do. She puts the blame on him where it BELONGS. Not on the other woman. And someday you will understand exactly where she is coming from.
I hope for your sake sooner than later…..
Keep coming back here and keep posting. The next thing he will likely do is isolate you from your friends and family. You will need the support here.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:05pm
justabouthealed says:
I don’t find it amazing, because I was just as blind when I was in the FOG. But I know what you mean, of course, witsend. You have a great way of cutting through the FOG and pointing out what is off! I didn’t pick up on all that. Sigh. But you are absolutely right.
Biddy, you will face it when you can face it. We’ve all been there, and just know the longer you are in the FOG the more damage that is done, and the more it hurts.
Good for you being here!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:21pm
ANewLily says:
Biddy, your last sentence of your post made me cry with grief for you. If you really mean it, you are in for the rollercoaster ride of your life.
You wrote, “I think he really just feels insecure and needs a lot of attention because he had some problems during his childhood.”
Your hubby’s ex is trying to warn you because she DOES know him.
I haven’t even met him but I know him too.
Most important your last statement is the EXACT SAME one that hooked me into 46.5 years of trapped lion’s den hell before I could escape. (He is now 73 and was only 20 when I married him. He NEVER changed — just got worse and worse. My love and caring about him didn’t make a single dent!!
PLEASE change your mind before it is really too late!!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 18 July 2009 @ 11:54pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Biddy, I feel sorry for you. Like everyone else here, I understand where you are and why you feel the way you do. We’ve all been there.
If you have the money, please consider buying the book, “Women Who Love Sociopaths.” You can find it on Amazon. Skip the first section, which is about sociiopaths, and just go on to the second section. That is about the women and their relationships. It’s based on recent research, which included a lot of us.
It will describe the type of woman that gets involved in these relationships — which will actually make you feel good about yourself. We’re a smart, loving, competent group. But more valuable to you, there is a detailed description of the pattern of these relationships. How they progress. What happens.
You’re in the early stage, which is why you feel so committed. You’re just starting to deal with painful realities, but they’re not bad enough to overcome your love and commitment. You’re getting enough of what you need from him and he’s made you feel responsible for him. You feel like you’re really bonded.
I don’t think anything we can say to you right now is going to make a difference. It wouldn’t have made a difference with most of us in that stage.
But here’s what you’re future looks like. It’s going to get more painful. You going to deal with more betrayals. You’re going to be confused because you feel like you love him so much, and you’re not going to leave him when you should leave him. He’s going to became more abusive, blaming you for everything he does, everything that’s wrong with the relationship. If you’re lucky, it will only be verbal. He will impoverish you. He sabotage you and teach you to sabotage yourself. He will teach you to hate yourself.
And when the emotional pain gets massive enough, you’ll leave. Or he’ll leave when he finds a better mark. Or he’ll find a way to get rid of you, stealing whatever you have left in the process.
Right now, all you’ve lost is your savings, and arguably your self-defensive instincts. Believe me, you have a lot more to lose. And if I ended this letter just asking everyone who reads it to chime in whether or not this describes there experience with someone just like your husband (because we all recognize this guy from your description), just with “yes, it happened to me” or “me too,” perhaps the sheer number of us might make a dent in your thinking.
We can’t make you take care of your self. You have do that. And you will do it, sooner or later. We just hope for your sake it’s sooner.
In the meantime, please, if you can’t do anything else, just start asking yourself this question on a daily basis: “Is this good for me?” Just that.
And I’ll start this.
It happened to me. I lost two homes. My business. My health. All the money I had. By the time it ended, I couldn’t speak to anyone without crying and I was so ashamed I couldn’t even look anyone in the eye. It ended five years ago, and it took me three three years to even begin to get emotionally stable again.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:22am
blueskies says:
‘Biddy,
Ah, nothing quite like a good competition.
Your husband is freaking BRILLIANT! He has cleverly tapped into your COMPETITIVE side.’
BINGO JEN! I regognise this pattern of behaviour with the slime ball I was in a relationship with.
I couldnt understand it at the time, WHY he would TELL me that other women wanted more from him than just friendship (i’d think if that is case why dont you just ‘move away from her’ if a guy was coming on to me while I was commited to you I would put them straight, enough said!) He would complain about how mean his ex wife was to him, but then I’d get e-mails from her which indicated that he had disgussed with this ‘terrible”hateful’ woman things we had talked about in private. The back up girl he moved on to he made accidentaly available to me, so I could see her, and he discussed me with her, he told ME that she was nothing, just sex and that I was the love of his life, BUT her that she was his lover and that I was just crazy and abusive and having a tough time ‘getting over’ him, but he still wanted to stay in touch beccause he ‘CARED’ about what happend to me! (in actual fact he was trying to come here and stay with me, and the thing he was after was sex and sowing seeds of worry and jealousy within her.) At first I thought why would you do all this? you have a new girl now. why even talk to her about me? why talk to me about her?? Then after I realised what he is, the fog cleared and the penny dropped… he plays off his ‘HAREM’ against each other!! It’s just one of his favourite FUN games!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:35am
PInow says:
Kathy,
I Love the way you are able to carry through the meaning, and your absolute understanding of what one is going through. Yes, It happened to me. if not for my kids, I’d still be in the mess. I was absolutely convinced that I could not function without him and that was part of the Fog and surely part of the emotional abuse. It took some time to realize that I had been doing it all all along, and that he had only manipulated me to think otherwise.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:37am
PInow says:
Yeap, Blueskies, and how about “I only went there to get some reassurance that I was worthy as a human being” after “she’s fat and ugly” did not work?
The love of my life said: “I hate you all bitches”, when I finally pressed on. that about sums it up. We are the feeding machines to their glory. I bet he’s got a lot of laughs putting us one up against another and to Biddy it may seem that hers is different, and that hers wont’ do this.
Biddy, whatever you choose to do, please, do not confront him with your suspicions of what he is. Do not urge him to seek treatment. At 40 it is too late, and even if he agrees, it’ll only teach him the tricks of further abusing me. in my sad story, I brought on the vengeance from hell and am now losing thousands and thousands of dollars he did not suck out of me through the legal channels.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:44am
PInow says:
“further abusing” me is a Freudian slip. It should be “further abusing you”. Tells ya enough.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:46am
blueskies says:
Oh Biddy It makes me sad too to hear you say ‘I think he really just feels insecure and needs a lot of attention because he had some problems during his childhood.’:( Even with everything you know. But I have said it before, this is your road to travel… just know that we will ALWAYS be here with NOTHING but YOUR best interest at heart.x
I also want to comment on this:
‘Other people who were close to him and his ex have told me that she never really knew him.’
I think you are cutting and sticking this information from other people into your pretty picture book to suite yourself(or him actually – look he must be rubbing his hands together with glee as you busily re-arrange the picture of him into something prettier and he doesnt have to DO anything)
I believe these people are saying they never really KNEW him becuasse he presents everyone with a FANTASY and imaginary man, a mirror… then when the smoke screen slips, they realise that they have been in a friendship/realtionship with someone who DID NOT EXIST and therefore they DONT know him. You see how it is once again being spun into some kind of blame on them, because THEY didnt understand him?! It’s not the case at all!
PLEASE read about cognitive dissonance, PLEASE read the stories and articles on here (are there any that have been particularly helpful so far?) the books that have been recommended to you and keep on posting!:)xxxx
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 2:49am
blueskies says:
PInow says: Biddy, whatever you choose to do, please, do not confront him with your suspicions of what he is.
This is absolutely crucial. Looking back, I think things got a hell of a lot worse for me once he started picking up that I was smelling rats(I didnt KNOW for sure untill after the event), when I started , in my confusion, to question his behaviour his behaviour became even MORE crazy making… he seemed to recognise that in order to keep me doubting myself ( and maybe to destroy me because he sensed I was close to ’seeing” what he REALLY was) he would have to make me feel EVEN worse, EVEN weaker, isolate me further, and feel like I was going crazy…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 3:42am
blueskies says:
Pinow also says (she’s goood;)xx
‘The relationships I have had with NON-Ps have all turned into friendships, long lasting, mutually respectful adult friendships. I would not ever contact my ex non-Ps’ wives and girlfriends to warn them. It simply did not work out between us, I wish them well and from time to time, I can call and chat and exchange ideas, and most of their partners are ok with this.’
This is my experience too. This is something to think about.
I have had significant relationships with people that unfortunately broke down, but I have friendly to great freindships with them, one of my ex’s is my best friend,and there would NEVER be a reason for me to want to WARN the next girlfriend about any of them and I never had WARNINGS about them either.
Now with the S/ P I was warned by his ex-wife and have subsequently felt compelled to warn his new victim. This is not evidence of me or his wife being wacko, this is evidence of their being a fire beneath the smoke.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 3:53am
ANewLily says:
Biddy, I’m pretty sure that you had even made up your mind to stay with him when you first posted. Now, you might not even be reading any more.
But, it is the middle of the night (West coast) and I am thinking about you. I’m wondering if the fact that you don’t have money to move the trailer house off your MIL’s property is a hinderance to leaving?
You said that you and your first husband have remained friends. Is it possible for you to swallow your pride and ask him to help you move it to another location?
Hmmm. This may not work because you aren’t yet at the point to realize (or admit) you made a mistake, are you?
How about family members or friends — or getting a credit card?
No? I agree with whoever mentioned that you get the book, “Women Who Love Psychopaths.” I found Chapter 5 to be the most helpful to me to explain why my Ex targetted me — and I fell for it.
I was TOO kind, TOO sympathic, TOO everything == all things good with a NORMAL man who had the capacity to love me as a husband should. Mine SAID he loved me all the time but his actions PROVED he didn’t. Later, I learned that he didn’t even have the capacity to love anyone but himself.
All of us survivors on this board are good, kind, and loving people. Your husband’s EX sounds she has the same good qualities or she wouldn’t even be trying to warn you — now that you have asked her.
I wanted to warn my Ex’s new “victim” but I’m glad I didn’t because I had been told she wouldn’t believe me anyway, that I was still wanting him back (YUK), that I was just trying to ruin their relationship. BUT, I can tell you that if she ever comes asking me questions when the FOG clears for her, I’ll be telling her the same things your husband’s EX is telling you!
They (the bad guys) may be different in stature, vocation, educational level, etc., but INSIDE they are all the same — disordered souls who bring chaos into the lives everyone who loves them — sooner or later, usually later after you have been hooked.
In another group, it was “decided” that there must be a “factory” on some distant planet that manufactures them and then sends them to earth to torment us.
Biddy, that’s why all of us who have “been there, done that” can recognize that you are in a very bad marriage. GET OUT!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 4:03am
blueskies says:
I’ve also considered telling the woman’s husband what she did because I don’t think it’s fair that I have to suffer while she goes one with her life as though nothing has happened.
You think its not fair that you suffer while she goes on with her life?
You DONT have to suffer any further at all, you DONT have to be in a relationship with a man who cheats (yes CHEATS, I’d place a bet that if, like someone here said, you check his movements or computer you might find he has NOT changed in that respect).
WHY would you want to waste your energy on trying to ruin this woman’s life?She is probably doing a good enough job of it already. It wont change who your husband is or what HE HAS DONE to you.
Even if she disappeared there will be another, and another(you can bet your bottom dollar) and the common denominator will be?………………… fill in the blank.
You are blaming this woman and even wanting revenge, holding her accountable for your husbands behaviour, while letting him off the hook and even seeing it as some kind of adorable ‘weakness’ in him that you can make better. this just doesnt make sense.
I DO understand how you are feeling though…he has you dancing to his twisted tune all over the place:(
I see from your post that you are resigned to stay and brave it out with him and I am so sorry to hear that, but others are right, sooner or later you will be on the other side of this and realising that EVERYTHING his wife said is completely TRUE.
P.S it took me a YEAR after the Ex wife contacted me with a whole load of toe curling facts about him to realise that every word of it was true, by which time I had been utterly destroyed.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 4:47am
biddy says:
I don’t know why I can’t make the connection here. It’s just that when I read what sociopaths are, he just doesn’t seem to fit. I guess you’d just have to see what a good heart that he really has. When you say that he is only thinking of himself…how can he do that and be so kind and considerate to me and his friends? His ex says that he’s always wanted to appear to be Mr. Nice Guy because it helps him with his cover. She also has referred to him as a drama king. She says that his attention needs will soon consume my very soul. He has never expressed a lot of anger towards me. He treats me very well…now and says that we just got off to a very bad start and that he should have opened up to me a long time ago about his problems. Is there a chance that he is just suffering from an addiction to sex? I see these people on TV all the time and couples are working through it. Does THAT make him a full blown sociopath? Yes, he’s needy and he’s childish. His mother walked out of his life suddenly when he was a child…leaving a cheating father behind. He didn’t even know where she was and felt that it was his fault that she’d left because maybe he’d been bad. They soon reunited but he said that it was very traumatic for him and feels this is what is behind is insecurity…his brother shows a lot of the same insecurity. Also, my husband’s father molested him during this time. He said it was totally out of character for his father because they were just like any other family but that his father lost his mind there for awhile after his mother left. I’m trying so hard to figure out if he is indeed a victim of circumstances or if it is ME who is a victim like his ex keeps telling me. Also, I forgot to mention that his mother put the portion of the land that our house is on in his and my name. She told him now that we were married, it was mine, too. However, our land is surrounded by her property…it’s a middle tract.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 9:17am
PInow says:
Sometimes I wake up still, Missing him and questioning if I am sane to have diagnosed my ex as this crippled being. I miss his touch, his smile, his eagerness to please. I turn to LF to read articles, posts, questions, and it brings me back to reality. I have put my Ex through hell. I was getting over another one, and he was “there for me”, giving me “advise” (that had all proven to serve only him at the end), and taking on the emotional care of a wounded soul (to wound it to the point of where I am now). My kids reported to me, that when my car would pull up into the garage and he heard the door open, he’d quickly run for the broom. The act began with my return, so that all I saw was sweet and good, weekly flowers and a lot of caring love words (words only they were). If not for my kids, I would have probably still been in the dark as to what dangerous animal I’ve decided to share my bed with. And they too fell for him at first, and the first of three years was truly glorious, full of kindness and warmth through and through. (of course, I provided financial “support”). It got to the point, where I’d thank him profusely for even doing the dishes, while I was charged with supporting the family, making financial decisions (his was always to get into savings, and I was jut not going to live like that), cooking, and child care. It seemed washing the dishes would have been the least he could contribute. But, he had my mind so warped, that I believed that my success was all due to his presence and ever lasting love. I still recall the growing feeling that things did not compute. We are used to believing that the words we hear are sincere. That is why our minds cannot process when they “hear” one thing, and experience something totally different.
I think you’ve read enough from us. Is he seeing a therapist for Sex Addiction? your love alone won’t save a sex addict. What steps is he actually taking as opposed to “says he’s taking” to a recovery?
Another thought is this: however bad our childhood memories are, it is our job to heal, not the other persons’. They may be there to support us, to remind us that it’s in the past, to guide and set an example, but not parent us and not take on our pain. Sociopath or not, I don’t trust your hub by the words you’ve used to describe him. He sounds much like the rest of our tormentors. And- so many of them are so kind and nice when it fits them to be. Good luck to you.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 9:40am
OxDrover says:
Biddy,
My P-son sent a “Trojan Horse” psychopath to infiltrate our family (because my son is in prison for murder) and this ex-cell mate of his rented a house from me and then started to be sooooo nice to us. My elderly mother was getting to where she needed someone around all the time, and this man volunteered to do that and moved in with her (where he started to drug her and turn her against me) all the while conspiring with my son in prison to convince my mother that I was EVIL and after her money (which I have never taken a dime) anyway, the next thing the Trojan Horse did was to start an affair with my other son’s wife (she was also a P) and get her in on the con game—before long they had convinced my mother to put $50,000 into an account in the name of my son and DIL…when my son C found out jabout the affair (my P-son knew and approved of it) he offered to go to counseling with his then wife and “work it out”—-well, she didn’t want to work it out, she and her BF decided to make it look like they had to kill him in “self defense”—thank GOD it didn’t work out and the two of them went to prison/jail….after stealing the $$ in the account and buying guns jto kill my son with.\
When they were arrested my mother said “I JUST DON’T UNDERSTAND IT, THEY WERE ALWAYS SO NICE AND RESPECTFUL TO ME.” DUH!!! Were they going to be nasty to her and get her to give them money and opportunity? Of course you are “nice to” the person you are trying to CON! That is how you con them. If you slapped them in the face they wouldn’t fall for your con game and give you money or whatever else it is that they want from you. It is obvious to me anyway, that your husband wants a roof over his head that he doesn’t have to get a job to have.
Do you think he would slap you around or screw around and willingly let you know about it? Of course not, because you’d chunk his sorry arse out on the street, so he PRETENDS TO BE SWEET, and I will bet you the farm he is already out looking for another woman when you are at work.
Tigers DO NOT CHANGE THEIR STRIPES.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:03am
blueskies says:
Hold the phone biddy – ‘your read what sociopaths are but it doesnt seem to fit?’ Honey, where are you reading? are you reading here? what people who have actually experienced them are telling you? Sigh!
I too wish good luck to you and send you lots of love.xxx
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:05am
PInow says:
Question to all: is there any legal action we can take against them? what are the options? I keep thinking that there has got to be something I can do for the emotional damage. I have looked up coercion and extortion, but it seems it has to be large $$$ with lots of proof. There is absolutely no care in the legal system about the emotional abuse. Maybe, I am overlooking something?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:41am
blueskies says:
PInow, I am sure others will jump in here, but I am pretty sure it would be difficult. I have recently looked into trying to take legal action for the P/S accessing my credit report with out consent and the answer is: dont bother, even though its illiegal in the US, from over the pond there’s not much to be done. They creep I knew is on the child abuse register in one state and is practicing as an NP in another, I have contacted his superiors and they dont want to know. He was sexually innapropriate towards my daughter, and there is nothing I could do even with her testimony legally. We see murders and rapsits ‘get off’ with light sentences all the time… women subjected to years of violent abuse and their husbands get a wrap on the knuckles… I am aware I am sounding defeatist!:)x I look forward to hearing if there ARE any options.xx
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:54am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Biddy,
Im sorry for the turmoil you are experiencing in your life. I wrote to you last night after your post about “just wanting to get on with your life with your husband”… my computer froze as I was trying to post it…maybe for the best…as I got so caught up in my response to you…but I was DELIGHTED to sign on today and see that Witsend and so many others here are sharing their INSIGHTS and expressing my sentiments …and Witsend it was as if my post went to you and you shared alot of what I had written…it was a little eerie at first..but then I realized so many of us can see the light and see through the fog when we are one the other side. Collectively we can give you, Biddy, so much guidance and advice, but not until you are THERE, READY, WILLING, AND ABLE TO TAKE ON THE REALITY OF THE SITUATION, and we all know it comes at our own individual pace, and many times it comes and GOES, until we can fully process the pieces of his actions vs words and reality vs fantasy in our own minds…
Please know many of us have had difficult childhoods ourselves. You havent shared your childhood experience, but you have shared your toxic husbands… You do know that having a difficult childhood does not give him or anyone a free pass to “use and emotionally abuse or physically abuse” another. It is not your job to “save” your husband from his past. It is his job to seek therapy and it his job to want to sort out his own life and issues himself. Sure he can turn to you and cry on your should for forgiveness and understanding and get you to a place of pity for him…but that cycle will just continue each time he is caught or falls off the wagon….eventually you will see the light, there comes a time when all of us are no longer willing to keep giving and forgiving and understanding only to be foresaken again and again.
This is totally your life Biddy, this is your call Biddy. Just remember you have choices in life and try to hold on to your sense of self-respect and self-love. Dont toss it away, and drown yourself in never=ending love and respect for a bad man. THINK OF BIDDY.
I must ask you this tho. You say he treats you so well and has a good heart…I wonder tho, if you question him or share your concerns and your true feelings with him….does his personality change? Does he get defensive or loud or condescending if you GO THERE with him? Is his “good heart” consistent or only when you are going along with the good little Biddy routine in life…where you put on a happy face and pretend you are secure and in a good safe place with him? I dont mean confronting him with your suspicions of him being a sociopath because I agree with Blueskies that its a dangerous path to take.. But I mean conversing with him openly about going to therapy or wanting to be proactive in putting his childhood behind him and the demons that followed causing him to be sexually promiscuous and unfaithful and disrespectful to you.. is his heart good to you then? When you try to talk to him the way you reach out to others to help you process what he has done and potentially will continue to do?
And lastly, please read the archived articles here. So you can learn ALL OF THE RED FLAGS, because Biddy its a simple easy formula, once you have three or more red flags – you know you should stop and change direction. For most of us survivors it only takes one red flag to know to stop and change direction…but since you are just beginning the process and are debating the issue…give yourself 3 red flags as the indicator that you need to be realistic about your relationship, your “husband” and your future… So read, you will be blown away by relating to so many women whose husbands, boyfriends, lovers MANIPULATED THEM and TWISTED THEIR THINKING and took advantage of women who had difficult or challenging childhoods themselves – so as all they want to do in life is please a bad man or save a bad man or hold onto false hope with a bad man.
Im glad you are here… and that you are being as open and accepting of everyones suggestions, stories and care and concern for you. I respect where you are and understand that its a process. Thank you for sharing your story and continuing to learn and grow with all of us.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 11:06am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Biddy,
You’re getting so many words thrown at you here. And I’m not sure that all of them make sense to you. Or if you trust us, any more than you trust his ex-wife.
I wish there were some words that would penetrate your emotional involvement with this man. So that you could see it rationally, rather than emotionally. But I’m going to try a few more things, before I give this up.
First, I hope this one thing lingers with you. You’ve been warned. You’ve been warned by his ex-wife, who despises him. You’ve been warned by us, who recognize him as a sociopath. And who have been through exactly the same thing as you’re going through. And you’ve been warned by some inner wisdom in your self.
Second, what makes you think it’s your job to fix him or anyone else? What gives you the personal resources to take care of someone who doesn’t work, who makes excuses for his bad behavior by blaming everyone else, and who demands that you be personally responsible for him? Are you a bored and wealthy princess looking for a charity project? Or an angel who has nothing else to care about or do with your life other than rescue poor, misguided sinners?
Third, who is taking care of you? And who is going to take care of you if it turns out he is a con man? If you’re not thinking about that, why aren’t you thinking about that? If this relationship goes bad, are you just going to be sitting on the side of the road, penniless and homeless, explaining to everyone that you trusted him and begging for help? Is this how you’re taking care of yourself today?
Fourth, why is it so important that he’s “nice to you”? What is wrong with your life that you are so needy? Don’t you have friends who are nice to you? Family? Is there anyone in your life who is nice to you AND you can trust? Because he may be nice to you, but you cannot trust him. If you think you can trust him, you are ignoring the evidence. He has already proven to you that he will lie, he will be unfaithful, and you can look at the evidence of his last relationship to see what he leaves behind him.
Fifth and finally, do you know what a con man looks like? Because if you don’t, it’s very simple. A con man looks like a dream come true. He looks like exactly what you always wanted. Because that’s his job, what he lives off of. He’s very good at it, figuring out what buttons to push. Did you always want to feel like a good person? Did you always want someone who deeply understands you? Did you always want someone who would let you heal him while he heals you?
Oh lucky you, you’ve found him. Now, all you have to do to keep him is let him have control of all your money, work hard to support him while he “helps around the house,” overlook his history and his infidelities, accept his blaming you for everything he does wrong, live in constant fear that if you leave the relationship you’ll lose everything, and give up everything you every hoped for yourself except this one “fabulous” relationship.
What is wrong with you that you don’t want more for yourself?
I’m sorry to be so blunt. But that’s the question you should be asking yourself. Forget about what’s wrong with him. What is wrong with you?
The other people here have told you something very important, and I don’t know if you heard it. IF this man is truly sincere about trying to get his life together, what is the evidence other than him talking you into accepting him? Is he going to therapy? Is he in a 12-step program? Is he actively looking for a job, and accepting anything he can find, so that he can have the dignity of contributing to the household?
Or is his main effort trying to keep you happy, so he can keep sucking off your life?
If that’s what you want — a very sincere and affectionate parasite — well, congratulations. You’ve got one.
As his ex-wife told you, she didn’t really see his true nature until almost the end of their multi-year relationship. And then she was scared to death. Think about it. What is the true nature of a parasite? What is his real intention toward you?
As I said, you’ve been warned. You’re in a tough situation, but it’s not going to get easier. Parasites don’t make you stronger and more able to take care of yourself. Quite the contrary.
What everyone here is telling you, and every book about sociopaths would tell is the same thing. Get out now. Get out before it’s too late. And “too late” means get away while you still are physically and emotionally healthy enough to start again. It’s not going to be easy. He’s got his hooks in you. But, believe me, it’s not going to get any easier.
At some point, it will get more urgent. It will be a matter of saving what’s left of your life. And if this sounds just too dramatic, and you aren’t sure if we’re all crazy, think about this. Right now, you’re the one who acting crazy. You’re ignoring what’s right in front of you. And you’re not taking steps to protect yourself from this predator.
I wish you well. Take your vitamins. You’re going to need them.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 1:40pm
TNewman says:
Hello All:
It’s been a very long time since I’ve visited or posted here. My life has changed significantly since I used to come her for confirmation and sometimes just to vent. I see a lot of new names and several that were members when I was active here. This site was a Godsend for me and helped me understand that I was not crazy and most importantly, that I was worthy of love. I found that love in an old childhood friend and we got married in May. Our families go back 3 generations. Yes! I made darn sure that I knew who I was giving my heart to this time and his entire history as well as his family’s. I resigned from a very stressful job of 27 years and am mostly a stay at home wife now. I DO help my husband some with the phone and the paperwork for his small business which we run out of our home. I’ve mostly been redecorating our lovely farmhouse and living a stress free life. My husband says that it’s time I allow someone to take care of me, and he’s doing a terrific job in doing so.
I’m quite certain that Biddy will not be visiting here again. She has indicated to me that she feels that all of you are as mistaken as I am about her husband. You see, I am the ex-wife and have pleaded with her for nearly three years now to visit Lovefraud and read the resources available here. It was a private counselor that steered me to this site. It took me nearly half an hour to find her posts as I didn’t know what name she had posted under but recognized her story (as well as her resistance) after reading a multitude of good information posted by others.
I was happy to see that she did seem to open up to everyone until she started hearing things that she did not want to hear. This has been my same experience. Feeling that I needed to save her became almost and obsession for me. My new marriage and lifestyle distracted me from that for a good while and then I received an email from her telling me about the STDs. And, then a few weeks later, another email where she asked me if I felt my ex, now her husband, would ever change. I swore to myself that I was never going to try to help her again after I learned that he had cheated on her numerous times and she still refused to leave the relationship, but found myself giving it another try after learning that STDs were involved. I went immediately and had myself tested…apparently he discarded me just in time…I received a clean bill of health.
I learned a lot about myself and have reached a better understanding of her through the responses that all of you have written to her. I was really struck by the statement made by the person who said that they had remain friendly with other exes and never felt compelled to warn their new mates. That holds true for me, too. I’m on very good terms with all my ex boyfriends and husbands and it never even occurred to me to contact one of their new loves to warn them about ANYTHING. I’ve always been happy to hear when they have started new relationships even though I went through a very nasty divorce with one of them…we moved past that and are still on good terms.
Your conversations with her have also helped me to understand more about her resistance. At times, I would grow so frustrated with her “ignorance” that I would find myself lashing out at her only later to find myself apologizing because I would have never believed these things about him, either, when I was with him.
There’s great differences between “Biddy’s” relationship and my nearly 8 year relationship with this same man. The greatest being that no one ever even tried to warn me, and the other being that I never had a clue about the life he was living behind my back. He was the perfect loving husband in my presence as I’m sure he is in hers. I couldn’t have asked for anyone to have shown me more love or affection. However, if I had of known that he was having sexual encounters, “romantic” relationships with other women whom he was planning futures with, and spending my money to do it…he would have been gone in a half second. She is aware of this. She has endured the pain of his cheating, his infecting her with STDs, and has talked to me about how she fulfills his needs but feels that she doesn’t have anyone when she needs someone to fulfill hers. Then, when I tell her that she has to think of herself, she goes into defense mode.
I can’t help her and I can’t spend anymore of my precious time trying to save her. That’s the primary reason I stressed strongly for her to come to Lovefraud and talk with others about it. Also, I feared that she thought I was just trying to be the mean ex-wife. I have a new life now and am certainly not getting any younger. She is a very young and beautiful girl and could have any man that she wanted…but apparently he has either damaged her self-esteem badly or maybe she had a problem with it prior to getting involved with him. I don’t know.
If she comes back and visits or even posts here, I don’t mind if she reads my post. There’s nothing here that I haven’t shared with her before. I just wanted to drop by and thank all of you for trying. And, your posts to her have even been MORE validating for me that this man is a full blown sociopath. Her belief in him has even caused ME to doubt my own assessment about what he is a few times! And, to the person who described him as “brilliant”…I’ve used that same term to describe him many times. However, he presents himself as a poor old dumb mountain boy. When his lies catch up with him, he pits everyone involved against each other by playing the blame game and stands back and watches in silent glee at the attention he has drawn to himself. He always comes out smelling like a rose! I’ve resigned myself to believe that he always will. His way of thinking is something other than human, part of a realm that I’ve never even visited, I can’t compete with his evil cleverness and honestly am proud of it!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 4:04pm
ANewLily says:
TNewman, thank you for your awesome post and the revelation of who you are.
I’ve only been on this site since about April so I hope she doesn’t think I knew anything about your story with her husband. I perceive she is a little paranoid — but it is no doubt from the confusion she is living in.
My impression of your post is that you truly are the nice person that I supposed you were in one of posts to Biddy. I’m so happy to hear of your recovery and NEW LIFE with a man who truly loves you! You are a very fortunate woman.
If she comes back with tales of woe of what she has learned and experienced I will definitely “be here” for her but I decided last night that I will no longer jeopardize my own healing to try to help her see what she refuses to see.
Bless you, TNewman! You are a good woman!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:08pm
Tilly says:
You can take a horse to water, but you can’t MAKE him drink.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:11pm
Tilly says:
Biddy:
Please, keep coming back here. We need you.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:15pm
TNewman says:
Tilly:
Yes, I feel that I am a very fortunate woman to have made a speedy recovery and manage to pick up the pieces and find true happiness. I had to educate myself and heal after my experience with the sociopath. I also had to do a lot of soul searching and accept what it was about my own behavior that made me such easy prey for this man. I read everything I could get my hands on and lurked or posted on Lovefraud many times. If I hadn’t of tried to help myself, I’d still be reeling from the experience. I wouldn’t ever want to endure another experience with a sociopath ever again but I will say that it was that experience that led me to being a much more stable, secure and confident person today and to the happiness that I now have in my life and DESERVE! And, yes, I am a very understanding and nice person but I’m not so nice now to allow myself to be hooked by another sociopath. I hope she comes back but by her words in her last email…I doubt. I guess some people just have to live and learn. I tried and now so have a lot of you here. I’ve decided that as long as she keeps herself involved with him and with me, then that keeps me involved with him in an indirect manner. I’ve done all I feel that I can do and certainly have no desire to be involved with his twisted life in any form or fashion. My best to you!
Tami
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 5:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tami,
QUOTE: “she keeps herself involved with him and with me, then that keeps me involved with him in an indirect manner. I’ve done all I feel that I can do and certainly have no desire to be involved with his twisted life in any form or fashion. My best to you!”
I totally AGREE with you here, and I too hope she eventually “sees” and “acts” in her own best interest, but until she sees and wants to change the status quo, it will not change.
I applaud you for trying to help her, but when someone refuses help, there isn’t anything you can do to force them to accept help or to SEE REASON. I have been warned about Ps and not listened, so I am not just casting stones at someone else. Been there myself.
Congratulations on your new life and I wish you the very best!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 6:19pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Tami, thank you so much for dropping in. It’s helpful to have your perspective. And congratulations on your new life. It’s always good to hear from someone who came through it better and stronger than you were before.
As far as biddy goes, a lot of us have been there. I had people in my life considering interventions and several offers by “connected” people to “take care of him.” But miserable as I was, I was totally hooked and committed.
Some of us just have to learn the hard, expensive way that we deserve better.
Kathy
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 19 July 2009 @ 10:09pm
blueskies says:
I am sad to hear that Biddy might not be posting anymore and I hope she KNOWS that we will still all be here if and when she is READY:)xx
this is a general waffely comment to everyone:LTL (Hi LTL you wonderful woman, hope all is well with you!x) says:
‘But I mean conversing with him openly about going to therapy or wanting to be proactive in putting his childhood behind him and the demons that followed causing him to be sexually promiscuous and unfaithful and disrespectful to you.. is his heart good to you then?’
I’m going to call this the toxic test!
With the S/P, my mother and my sister, it was impossible to talk with them openly about their behaviour or how it might be impacting on ‘our’ relationships and how ‘we’ could do something about it. Any attempt would lead to anger or a total shut down of me, complete disregard for my opinion, complete denial that there was a problem or an attack. I was only ‘allowed’ their interest and ‘affection’ as long I was towing their line TO THE LETTER and being a good little puppet. Put up and shut up! Of course I was expected to fully take on board the long list of MY failings as a human being and what was(and always has been) ‘wrong’ with me with grace and humility.
Now,I have noticed that with the friendships I now consider to be non-toxic ( I have been really looking at the friendships I have and kind of sorting them out in to two piles) over the years there are MUTUAL exchanges when there has been any kind of problem and a REAL DESIRE on BOTH sides to sort out the problem, and then ACTION on both sides to do so.
I am ALWAYS grateful to be told by someone who CARES about me if I am stepping on their toes – because I DO NOT want to do that and I probably didnt realise I was. I say THANK YOU FRIEND! And non toxic friends are always grateful to be told if they are stepping on mine because they dont want to do that either!
There is an OPTION in non toxic realtionships to DISCUSS any problems in an open way.
In toxic relationships there is a ONE WAY avenue for discussion.
The toxic people DO NOT want to ’sort out’ the problems because:
1.) They dont see that there is one. Taking action to sort anything out is too much like admitting they’re not completely perfect in every way and besides they can behave in any way they choose – they have the devine RIGHT!
2.) They dont give a crap about you, you are insignificant unless you are doing your job, which is to stroke and massage their ego, support, nuture, do handstands, for THEM. That is the EXTENT of your value as a human being.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 20 July 2009 @ 1:49am
blueskies says:
They will TELL you THEIR problems, oh yes while you sit and stroke their poor little heads, and they weep, and lament, but dont go expecting them to DO anything about it they DONT WANT YOUR OPINION, that’s not the idea, them TELLING y