Boredom and the sociopath
PDF What’s the relationship, if any, between boredom and sociopathy?
Can we can agree, for starters, that boredom does not cause sociopathy? Otherwise most of us would be sociopaths.
Can we also agree that a low tolerance for boredom, alone, does not cause sociopathy. Otherwise again, many of us with low tolerances for boredom (not that I include myself, but God, am I bored) would be sociopaths; and this isn’t the case, either. That is, even most of us with low tolerances for boredom aren’t sociopaths.
However, research suggests that sociopaths may require higher levels of arousal to escape conditions of boredom. So apart from being prone to boredom and finding it extremely oppressive, it may be the case that sociopaths tend to resort to high arousing, high risk solutions to their boredom.
I think we edge closer to a link between boredom and sociopathy when we note that, if nothing else, boredom seems to be a medium, a highly conductive state or field, for the emergence of sociopathic behaviors.
That is, sociopaths seem to find in states of boredom fertile play for their sociopathy. As noted, they seem at risk of solving their boredom sociopathically. States of boredom tend to elicit, coax into the open the sociopath’s sociopathy.
Why? What it is about boredom that makes it perhaps especially conductive of the sociopath’s acting-out? In point of fact, it is less the properties of boredom than the properties of the sociopath that answer this question.
The sociopath is, foremost, an outrageously self-centered specimen. His exclusive interest in his own comfort, gratification and entertainment (and cold uninterest in others’) compels, along with incredulity, a morbid fascination with his interpersonal perversity.
I’d suggest that among the last things the sociopath wants to face, besides extreme pain, is boredom. The sociopath wants to feel entertained, stimulated and comfortable; boredom provides none of these. Moreover, and consistent with his pathological narcissism, the sociopath feels he shouldn’t have to be bored. He feels absolutely entitled to relief from his boredom.
Now we might still say, big deal?…doesn’t this still describe many of us who aren’t sociopaths, yet for whom boredom makes our skin crawl?
What I think distinguishes the sociopath in all this isn’t his entitled claim to relief from states of boredom or even, by itself, his arguable gravitation to higher risk, higher arousing solutions to his boredom. Rather, I think it’s his entitled claim to relief from states of boredom with virtual utter disregard for how he achieves his relief.
In other words, for the sociopath, basically whatever it takes to solve his boredom, at whatever expense to whomever, is a go. Where the nonsociopath itching for escape from his boredom is chastened by a sense of accountability to others—by the implicit social contract to respect others’ boundaries—the sociopath is undeterred by, and abrogates, such social contracts. They are a joke to him.
Intellectally, he is aware of them and, when expedient, may play-act them. But he regards them, truthfully, as utterly controvertible anytime he finds it convenient to controvert them. Furthermore he harbors, secretly when not transparently, contempt for anyone dumb enough to be bound by such contracts. Certainly he isn’t.
And so the bored sociopath is dangerously poised to exploit. Unburdened (if not stimulated) by the prospect of his exploitation, he finds countless opportunities to gratify himself at others’ expense. He can rob someone, or cheat someone, or cheat a hundred people, or get plastered and drive maniacally; he can scare someone, or lie audaciously with convincing sincerity; and in so doing he can ignore the wreckage he wreaks because what matters, what only matters, is the satisfaction in it for him.
The sociopath’s deranged self-centeredeness protects him from the scourge of regret. Where regret may torture the normal person, keep him up at night, awaken him to troubled memories, reflection, and perhaps even a rethinking of his priorities, not so for the sociopath.
At most, regret has a superficial effect on him; he might regret, if anything, the inconvenience of his present situation; but not, it’s safe to say, the dignity, security and trust he robbed from the victims across his life.
(My use of “he” in this post is not meant to suggest that males have a patent on the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
James says:
Done,
Your are welcome about the GL (gaslighting)
“Charlie Brown yells “THAT’S IT!” with such force that Lucy falls out of her chair.”
Yes, that’s it’s! moment something I too have found here and other sites concerning issues with my ex s/p. Talk about fog and confusion? Soon after my world part apart I felt detached and numb then I would see or read something about the disorder and it feel like cold water throw at me shocking my body before I react! And yes, sometimes I almost fell off my chair! Literally!
I believe these days of shock are done and I know enough now not to be surprised anymore. But one never knows, our learning seems to be on going. So just in case one saying I often tell myself is “expect the unexpected”…
Oh, one other thing about Charlie Brown and Lucy. How she would trick Charlie into kicking the football again and again only to pull it away just before he is able to kick the ball, sending him through the air and him landing on his back and her walking up to Charlie Brown and looking at him as he is laying there looking at the sky, then asking him “poor Charlie Brown you are never going to learn are you?”
So many times I ask myself the same question, when am I ever going to learn?
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OxDrover says:
PInow, I think you should go to the LF store site and order “The Legal abuse syndrom” I have it and it is a great book, it tallks about how we are RE-raped by the legal system after being emotionally raped by the Ps.
Glad you figured out how to stay on LF—
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Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, i completely agree with your analysis. what you say makes perfect sense.
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OxDrover says:
Katya,
Maybe I “over reacted” to the post Steve made to the self proclaimed P, but “over reacting” is what WE (former victims) tend to do when we are “triggered”—-what triggers us?
Well, it is different for every person of course, but let’s say you were bitten by a brown snake—then if yo uwere walking across my lawn and saw my brown water hose lying in the grass, you might be TRIGGEREd by the sight and jump out of your skin trying to get away from the harmless water hose.
Steve may (looking at it in retrospect) have been “tongue in cheek” to the self proclaimed P, but it is difficult to tell from the printed word what would possibly be obvious in a face to face conversation.
But on the surface what appeared to me to be “understanding and concern” and a “kind and caring” post to a self ladmitted professionally diagnosed P “triggered” an outrage in my emotions. Possibly I was triggered by a “water hose” but having been bitten by the “brown snakes” over and over and over, even as far along the line as I am toward recovery, none the less, even I was TRIGGERED into an outrage.
Something I said on a blog a week or so ago “triggered” someone on this blog, and they e mailed me privately with their upset and hurt feelings. What I said in the blog, they admitted was true, but it HURT their feelings terribly by the WAY I said it. In fact, though I had said in the post that it was my OPINION, it triggered something in them and they actually read different words because they felt attacked personally, though the post was a GENERAL opinion not specific to them, but it triggered them because they had chosen to engage in some of the behavior I was concemning IN MY OPINION…because I speak forcefully sometimes, I triggered someoen unintentionallty and totally not aimed at them.
Because i ican’t read Steve’s mind and know exactly WHY he spoke to the self admitted P who was, by their own words “kind and caring” as he did, but it came across TO ME as “you poor baby, maybe you were misdiagnosed” (again that is NOT what steve typed on to the screen, but it was MY EMOTIONAL REACTION and it triggered me.
Being triggered and over reacting to what people say, and what people do is many many times the post-P mind set and behavior, we become cranky, and see offense where none is intended, we get hurt feelings when someone is not trying to acttack us….it is PTSD and though we work hard NOT to react this way, sometimes one comes on us unawares and TRIGGERS an over reaction before we have time to even really THINK. It gets to our emotional brain before it gets to our logical one, and we REACT FIRST and think LATER.
What steve actually SAID was not “harmful” to me in any way, it didn’t effect my life at all, it wasn’t even addressed to me, yet, because it TRIGGERED ME I became very upset and angry. I reealize LOGICALLY, that steve was not aiming that post at me, yet I RE-ACTED.
It actaully, when you think about it afterwards, is another learning experience for ME. Another thing I hav elearned about myself and about triggers. So in the end, even a negative experience from being triggered can help us learn and heal. (((hugs)))
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Steve,
I just want to throw in my two cents here. What you said made sense to me. You’re a therapist. The person presented two conflicting pieces of information, plus the non-confrontational and inquisitive tone of the writer. A therapist (and most people) would normally try to clarify and resolve the conflict, rather than doing an instant diagnosis on the speaker.
Just because we’re hyper-sensitive doesn’t mean that you need to change what you do. I know you don’t need my or anyone else’s permission. But we do know that we’re sensitive.
Actually when I read that post, I went through my mental file cabinet to think about when a diagnosed sociopath would have feelings like that or experience that would confirm that self-analysis about being kind and caring.
And something popped up that I saw occasionally with my ex. Sort of a Munchausen by proxy thing. With certain people, particularly those who were vulnerable to his crazy-making behaviors, he could switch into healing angel mode of concerned attention and pretty impressive nursing behavior. This would happen when they were psychologically imploding. He would say encouraging things, take over chores, bring food and drinks, be amusing and generous. I saw it several times with me and also with an ex-girlfriend.
But then it would ultimately wind-down with reverting to type. Making it about he was right and we were wrong. Or that we were stupid and he was smart. And he would puff up again and exit back to his personal interests, leaving the final message of how inadequate we were.
And you know, this is one of those things that is so difficult to interpret, as you mentioned on your radio show. It becomes really hard to distinguish whether the ultimate impression he left — about what a time-consuming pain we were and how this was all ultimately about our inadequacies — seemed so crushing because we were really not firing on all cylinders (which was definitely true for both of us). Or whether he actually was conscious trying to destabilize us further (which is tempting, but I don’t think he was really that conscious). Or whether it was just an opportunity to make himself look grand and important that ultimately bored him (which seems most likely to me).
In any case, I think, if asked about his capacity to be kind and caring, he would have no difficulty saying he was and pointing to these events. And it would be true for him. Like that poster, he does imagine that he is trying to be a good person.
It doesn’t change what he’s capable of. Or rather not capable of. That’s the problem with not feeling empathy or remorse. That internal meter that measures our impact on other people is missing. So it’s not that the poster was lying, per se. It’s that that person’s “truth” fails to incorporate some information the would consider necessary in talking about being “kind and caring.” Like how it affects the other person.
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sabrina says:
Hi everyone, very interesting and wise contributions here. My humble opinion (for whatever its worth
is that Steve, as a therapist seemed to have remained neutral and unbiased in dealing with the diagnosed S, and not investing in any emotional way which is highly professional.
I took it more like Katya said “he was being- politely fescicious” which my post to the writer was more on that agenda as well.
I COMPLETELY understand Oxy’s feelings regarding the waste of time it is and how we have, and are still suffering from the involvement with these disordered individuals.
From what I make of it, all of the loving,intelligent people here ( non P’s) are ON THE SAME PAGE and in this together! I dont think- at least hope, not a single one of us could EVER be fooled or feel the slightest inclination that the “kind and caring” comment actually has any truth to it. Iagree that this is NOT the place for a P to get any “air time.” So , predators should troll more furtile waters, we aren’t taking the bait!
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sabrina says:
PS kudos to you Oxy that you realized and admitted what a trigger it was for you. We ALL have those. You set the tone here to work through our issues in honest, open communication. Its a beautiful forum here to express what we really feel and I think you were being really protective over others even MORE than yourself!
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sabrina says:
(in the sense that you were thinking about how the S can open new wounds to so many who are struggling here)
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ANewLily says:
Oxy, I can so understand your explanation of being “triggered.” Whether or not it was an “over-reaction” I don’t know but I do know that I certainly appreciated your analogy of the brown snake and the brown garden hose!!
It reminds me of a real-life experience that might fit the topic of this thread — boredom and the sociopath.
Years ago, I came down the steps and saw what I thought was one of the kids’ jumping rope. No problem, I bent down and picked it up — and then SCREAMED as it moved in my hand.
My EX (to relieve his boredom, I suppose) had brought the harmless garden snake inside on purpose to get a reaction from me. I don’t think I had an “over-reaction” but a true “trigger.” One’s reality is sure messed with when NOT expecting an inanimate rope to turn into a living creature.
Interesting but part of the lingering memory about this episode was that NOT ONE of my family came to check on my well-being. I WAS okay after the reality set in (I’m not afraid of snakes) but the memory of the non-empathy and non-caring of my EX remains.
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ANewLily says:
BTW, folks, if you laughed at my “snake story” I want you to know that I am laughing, too. Not yet about the non-empathy but the “living jump rope” for sure.
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OxDrover says:
Good points, Sabrina and Kathy,
Kathy, your X’s “kind and caring” is SOOOOOOOO typical and what a fake “kind and caring” they DO PUT ON. So gentle and giving—WHERE IS THE PUKE EMOTICON WHEN YOU NEED ONE? LOL
That “demonstrated” “kind and caring” behavior vs the later devaluation is definnitely CRAZY MAKING…..or the “kind and caring to others in PUBLIC” but behind closed doors, ANYTHING BUT, “kind and caring” to US.
While my egg donor would not score very high on the PCL-R at all, vs the 30+ my P son would score, and I have dubbed her a “psychopath by proxy” for doing my P son’s bidding and being his dupe, she none-the-less does display BEHIND CLOSED DOORS some of the entitlement, fake mask, lying, etc. but she I am sure PERCEIVES HERSELF as “kind and caring” even when she is LYING and when she is ABUSING because she is “entitled” to punish others when they don’t do what SHE THINKS is right.
So the PCL-R doesn’t “pick up” on scoring some people who have two-faces—one publicly “kind and caring” and the other much more viscious “behind closed doors.”
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PInow says:
Kathleen, I agree with your take on it. And in keeping up with the Snake description, I think “Kind and caring” is a manipulative way IN, sort of like “Lie low and strike the victim” or “hypnotize by appearing charming”. Speaking of boredom, My wonderful EX would do Everything good. – once. then he would not. It’s like he would expect that that was enough. and then make it sound like he’s been doing it all along. What a creeper. Now, he did say he had ADHD, but ADHD isn’t like this: he could stay with the task for a long time, finish it and no longer care for it. Say, maybe, that’s why his life is a series of 3 year fragments with so many women?
Good group discussion. I am enjoying the thread. Feels like you all are the only ones who can really say “I understand” and “I can relate”
Oxy, I was triggered badly. I sat there shaking and paralyzed, and I saw that no one answered and the blog went “dead”. I was so angry and not wanting to feel victimized and not wanting to cave in, and needing your guys’ loving reassurance, that I e-mailed Donna privately seeking her assistance. NC with My P. If there were three – four self- proclaimed Ps blogging and we went NC what would happen to this wonderful support we have grown to really benefit from? Just more questions, no answers… But, if we put up some joint front, they’d be OH MY VICTIMIZED? maybe ? for one millisecond? We should think up some code of behavior all of us agree to follow with such bloggers, so that they don’t luck us out of our own supports. Just a thought. Did not mean to offend anyone, totally understand Oxy’s reaction. Still think Kathleen put it well: Steve gave a therapeutic response. Still think it was brilliant, Steve.
Here is an idea: one reason to be NC is so that they don’t know how much they hurt us. Because it may feel so good to them, they’ll be coming back for more. If we are neutral, it may be as bad as NC. Ideas?
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blueskies says:
Escapee: ‘I went through a phase of feeling that the S had appealed to my vanity and this was my weakness.’
Yeah, this is a familiar and confusing feeling for me. The lunatic told me during the discard, that I had ‘simply become addicted to the nice things he said, to the flattery’ Huh? What you mean I like being told I was loved and beautiful by the man I loved and thought was beautiful and that is a weakness of mine?? OF course you instantly start thinking is it? Was I? Surely its fine to enjoy being told you are loved, in a relationship or friend ship with a normal person? and yes I liked it very much, trouble was I never really felt it, it was never demonstrated, just empty words…A last-ditch headfuck to send me on my way…
(Also Thank you Escapee for your kind words on the ‘child molester’ thread, I really lost it for while there… still havent found it! you were so kindxx;)
on with the catch-up reading:)
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Kathleen Hawk says:
blueskies,
Your ex telling you that you were addicted to flattery is a riot.
Why did he bother to convince you of how wonderful he is, if not so that you would support his shaky ego?
It’s why the whole experience put me off compliments. If someone can tell me how wonderful I am and I care, they can just as easily tell me how horrible I am and I’ll care. It all just feels so manipulative, whether or not it’s intended that way.
It’s why I’ve switched to giving and believing statements about what something meant. “That made it easier for me.” “That helped me understand.” “That made me feel good about myself.”
I’m trying to get out of the judging business, positive or negative.
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blueskies says:
‘The kind and caring sociopath’ PUH!
I think this is a really excellent discussion though.
I think that the S/P I had a relationship with believed he was kind and caring, he certainly works very hard to create the impression amongst people he knows(it only works long distance or at arms length, or for a short while of course), he uses all the right words, its a FANTASY of his, his actual real life behaviour is not caring because he doesnt GET it. He cannot get it, he can barely go through the motions. He uses the WORDS and believes his own b/s.
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blueskies says:
Kathy:)x
The laugh riot is that I DONT like compliments, I have NEVER been comfortable with them, not very often recieved them, and never craved them. He lavished them on me to the point of embarrassment, urged me to accept them as ‘truth’ then BAM! Turned it round as a weakness!lol!
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Kathleen Hawk says:
I said that wrong. I’m trying to limit my judging to what it meant to me.
So instead of telling someone he’s an insensitive jerk, I say, “That seemed unfair to me, and it hurt me.”
I think it’s more powerful to speak out of our own experiences. And then if someone tells us that we’re wrong or there’s something wrong with us for feeling that way, it becomes clearer what they’re attempting to do. Invalidate our reality. Make us second-guess ourselves. Separate us from our own self-interest. Be right at all costs.
My next article is going to be about emotional freedom, something I keep talking about. And some of this comes down to how we talk, and what we accept in the way people talk to us.
We do not have to accept other people’s judgments about us. They don’t walk in our shoes.
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OxDrover says:
A new lily and Sabrina, I think we were all three posting over each other (at the same time) so I didn’t see you two’s comments until after my post came up, so will respond now.
I ran into my egg donor at the super market a few MONTHS ago and I didn’t see her as she stood watching me and waitin gfor me to get through the check out line and then she came over to me (SUPRISE) I was UN-expectedly running into her and then she tried to TRIVALIZE my fears of my P son and avoidance and NC of her by saying “Oh, Oxy, don’t beeeeee like that” and man alive I WENT OFF ON HER IN THE STORE.
I was literally shaking for 18 hours afterwards and I realized several learning points from the event. Number one, that I need to do everything I can to maintain NC so I do not shop that store on monday when she is likely to be there, and number 2, I realize that seeing her UN-expectedly is a BIGGER trigger and 3. I also realize that the nasty way I felt after the BIG DOSE OF STRESS HORMONES (literally llike I was going t puke) made me realize that I NO LONGER have hat continual level of stress hormones circulating in my blood and there was a time I did have that HYPER STATE OF STRESS 24/7….and I thought that was “normal” and now I realize that when I am triggered, it lasts only a few minutes or a few hours and the SHOCK is usually NOT as bad as when I was TRIGGERED and on HYPER ALERT all the time.
In fact, the other day i was in my lounge chair in the LR and had fallen asleep one of my friends who is an “open the door without a knock and come in friend” (notice the door is no longer locked 24/7 if I am not home alone on teh farm) came in and actually came over to where I was and I DID NOT WAKE UP!
Those of you who know me from “back when” know that that is real progress in me feeing secure and safe in my own home.
I an not “jumpy” like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, any more, but I can still be triggered and maybe always will be to some extent, but it “shore ain’t what’d it usta-be”
A NewLily, I am not afraid of snakes either, but having observed several very severe poison snake bites in humans I RESPECT the poison ones and like the non-poisoonous ones. We have quite a few copper heads in this area and the occasional water moccosin, so I am careful around the house and yard and don’t put my hand where I can’t see where it is going in the garden, yard, or outbuildings. If I am picking up something I make sure I know what is under it so I can do it safely.
However, I think what your husband did to you is VIOLENCE, and not a “practical” joke at all. I like a really good well thought out “practical joke” on someone that it “fits” well, but (A) only if they are a good friend and would appreciate it and (B) it does’t involve anything that would make someone injure themselves or (C) A + B and in retaliation for a practical joke they have pulled on you.
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endthepain says:
I love reading these posts..it helps so much….my ex S..told me my “Expectations were to high”……LMAO….I actaully fought him on it at first..then started to believe it….but no more…my expectations werent to high…I EXPECTED him to follow through on his promises/words..I EXPECTED him to show respect…I EXPECTED him to be a Partner in parenting…I expected him to work….I expected him to not drink everyday and not go to bars and text message other women…I expected him to be decent…I expected him to be a human being…..my expectations werent to HIGH…dammit…they were to LOW…I accepted his crap….and hated mtself for it…thank god the second time around I didnt put up with it for 2 long…I would simply tell him DON:T come home…he slept on couches..and when he felt like it…when he was done..or tired of where he was at..he would crawl back..with a worthless excuse…so as far as my expectations being to HIGH……for him..yes…as he wasnt human to be able to fulfill any expectations…..
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ANewLily says:
Wow. I had never thought of the snake incident as violence, but it was, wasn’t it? I did realize at the time there was malice behind the prank but I also “dismissed” it as a grade school bully-boy prank to upset some little girl.
I didn’t know yet of his diagnosis or I would have recognized that disordered persons never grow up, but remain in “childhood.” At the time of this prank, the “man” was about 40 years old!
Your “take” on my story reminds me of how very important it is to have feedback on our stories for the new ways of thinking. I guess it explains why “they” try to isolate us so we can’t be privvy to such insights.
Oxy, I rejoiced as I visualized you so calm and serene in your own house when your friend came over — through unlocked door. That’s a real milestone for you and an inspiration for the rest of us.
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OxDrover says:
PI Now, end the pain and Lily, etc. it seems we were all posting over each other “all at the same time together” as my son at age 3 would have said!
PI, I wasn[t sure if I was the only blogger triggered by these disordered people trolling on the blog….I have even engaged them in the past, but I will not do so any more.
One poster even “welcomed” them (the welcoming new bloggers is a tradition here at LF) and later she said (forgive me my CRS is bad today so can’t remember who) that she was anxious because she didn’t know if we were SUPPOSED to welcome them etc.
I think I was one of the people who started that “tradition” a couple of years ago because when I would go on to a blog and post and then others would “post around me” only addressing their “friends” and ignoring me I felt rather “left out” so I made a POINT to welcome EVERY new screen name I saw and over time others also started doing this and it has kind of become a “custom” or ‘tradition” here and frankly I think ti iis one of the things that makes LF VERY SPECIAL and bloggers feel comfortable here.
I remember Henry telling me how my “welcoming” him just a little while after he made his first post made him feel good about being here and I ahve had other bloggers tell me the same thing.
People come and go here, some for a little while and others for quite some time. I am at nearly 2 years (plus or minus a few months as I can’t remember exactly when I started blogging here but I know it was in the summer of 07) I had been on another “survivor” group that had problems with flaming and name calling and some “managers” who were themselves disordered I think, the site was owned by Sam Vankin (of all people, speaking of PSYCHOPATHS!) After he posted an article entitled “Jesus Christ was a Narcissist” and after being “counseled by mangagement” AGAIN about syaing “God bless you” to other bloggers (it might “offend someone” who had been religiously abused wasx the excuse they gave me for “counseling” me) I got tired of walking on egg shells and left the group and found LF and felt greatly welcomed here by posters like aloha and others and haven’t been back to the other blog at all since.
Donna runs a “good ship” here and i appreciate it and am so gratreful to her for the huge amount of work she must put in to keeping LF going. The “waves” that will keep on rippling across the ages from the small stone she has thrown into the huge pond of the universe will go on rippling for a long long time.
I am much stronger now than I think I have ever been in my life, more self assured, like myself better, and am happier and P-free for the first time….I owe 99.9% of it all to LF and the wonderful people I have met here….I do know, though, that for myself, I will never get to where I am “perfectly healed” because life is a learning process and a journey not a destination, and there will always be more to learn, more to experience, and more joy ahead! that’s why I stay here, but now, I’m not here 16 hours a day, but pop in and out between chores or other things in my life that I enjoy, but for a while, LF was my LIFE BOAT and I ate here, i slept here, and I blogged here practically 24/7.
I get cranky when a P invades “our safe space”
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Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Hi everyone…
i really didn’t expect my response to that post to generate the response it did…Katya, PiNow…you understood where I was coming from…Kathy, you as well…(and by the way, Kathy, I left some unrelated feedback on your blog).
Oxy, I wasn’t diagnosing or undiagnosing that poster. If he/she was diagnosed as a sociopath, maybe he/she is. My response, as Katya noted, was meant to be somewhat respectfully dubious and facetious.
I was simply stating what I think is a truism: that if, in fact, you are a kind and caring individual who never manipulates and exploits others, you are not a sociopath.
I stress: it wasn’t for me to assess the veracity (or possible manipulativeness and deception) of the poster’s self-description. Of course the poster could have been a charlatan, a provocateur, a real sociopath, or possibly–and it is possible–a misdiagnosed sociopath. I really don’t know.
Thanks!
Steve
Again, I was merely pointing out that objective descriptors such as “kind and caring” and “unmanipulative” do not conform to the sociopath’s profile. I meant nothing more than that in my response; and certainly didn’t mean to imply a failed appreciation for how sociopaths and exploiters can fool themselves and others.
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Steve Becker, LCSW says:
sorry about that appended p.s. it was meant to be in the body of my last post.
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James says:
Steve, not to get in the discussion about the “am a diagnosed sociopath”.
This entry is just a personal insight in how I work/feel about this issue here at lovefraud whenever we get (which look like more these days?) a visit from this type of poster.
Personally, If I feel like the poster “trigger” a reaction in me I stop and then shutdown any communications (entries) between this poster and myself. I do this as a defense switch because I fear I might hurt the site and post something I might enter that I would regret later on. I do this also to protect myself and the poster. Emotional triggers for me can happen so quickly that I might react too quickly causing more harm then good. This is why sometimes you will see me post and ask the poster(s) not to reply or to stop communication with me by post. One thing (if they are telling the truth) is that I am thankful for the poster being nice enough to tell others they are a sociopath. But in all honesty, whenever this does happen I take what the poster states with a grain of salt. Another trait of a person that suffer from a PD is they may be in fact a pathology liar which makes it even harder to know if the poster is being honest or not. Another question for myself is why a poster who has this disorder would even come here? It’s not like any of us can help them. This site is formatted to help victims not the abusers.
Anyway Steve these are my personally insights and feeling and wanted to just express them to the members and you.
Thanks
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confused2 says:
I’m sitting here thinking of S, “looking in the rear view mirror” and I’m wondering if he was a “peeping tom”. He told me a few times that he liked to go walking late at night in the summer. Which I thought was odd since he weighed close to 350 pounds and he became red in the face and out of breath when he would bend over to tie his shoes. I know he was on porn sites and was a member. I am wondering if anyone could tell me what the signs of a peeping tom are.
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Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Thank you, James…I hear everything you are saying. You make great sense. I appreciate and value your comments!
Steve
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OxDrover says:
Steve,
You did NOT do anything “inappropriate” in your response to the “kind and caring” person who said they were also a “diagnosed” psychopath. You simply expressed your opinion (either literal or tongue in cheek) that they might have been “misdiagnosed” if they were indeed “kind and caring.”
The “problem” was not what you said at all….the “problem” was WITHIN ME in how I REACTED to what you said, which wasn’t even directed to me.
In the past week or so I have been on BOTH ends of this TRIGGERING THING, I was contacted (privately) a few days ago by someone who was VERY MUCH TRIGGERED AND HURT by something I said which was, just like your post, NOTHING WRONG IN THE POST, just that that person was highly triggered and hurt at reading it, which was NOT directed at them at all.
I actually didn’t realize until last night JUST HOW MUCH this comment TRIGGERED ME because I dreamed about it all night in a nightmare scenario that left me almost weak this morning.
This is all a “tempest in a tea pot” and “over nothing” EXCEPT that it TRIGGERED A LATENT problem within ME. I became upset with you, and it wasn’t anything you did “wrong” because you didn’t do anything wrong, but I
took it wrong” because of my previous trauma.
Having been on BOTH sides of teh triggering process (having triggered another blogger and having BEEN triggered) I think I am able to logically see BOTH sides of the story. Her feelings were valid though I said nothing “wrong” and my feelings were “valid” though Steve said nor did anything wrong. I think there is a BIG LESSON here for ALL OF US…that something we say in ALL INNOCENCE can be INTERPRETED by someone who is RAW (even if they themselves aren’t aware of just how raw) and TRIGGER THEM, and we, on the other hand must realize that when something someone else says TRIGGERS US, we need to STOP, LOOK AND CONSIDER what about the s tatement or post triggered US rather than getting angry and impuning motives to the other blogger.
I am VERY PROUD of the posters here on LF because in other settings there would have been a HUGE FLAP WITH MUCH FLAMING GOING ON….but instead, we have each expressed our opinions in an at least “civil” way t oward each other in spite of any triggered FEELINGS and shown respect for each other, and done some INTROSPECTION about what it was that did trigger us that were triggered.
As we learn MORE ABOUT OUTSELVES and why we are triggered, we can make those triggers LESS SCARY and hopefully desensitize ourselves to those triggers.
The nightmare I had last night where I was trying to defend myself to community members for going NC with my egg donor and the smear campaign she was going to great lengths to keep going about how I was trying to steal money from her, etc. also made me realize that there is some WORK I NEED TO DO on this aspect of my healing. I am the one who has done no wrong, told no lies, and yet, I am the one branded the greedy liar by my egg donor, and she is the poor pitifful old lady abused by her greedy daughter who has deserted her.
I know that NONE of that is true, but truth doesn’t always win the debate.
I hope that NO ONE here will stop posting their opinions in a truthful and forthrightly manner because someone(s) was/were “triggered” by a post that there was nothing in teh world wrong with. I think all of us have had plenty of “walking on egg shells” to keep from setting off the psychopaths in our lives that we are tired of doign that….but I am convinced that we can still express our own individual opinons and tell our stories in a respectful way and if it does trugger someone, we can work it out. Because someone is triggered it does NOT mean that what you said is “wrong” or “mean” it actually has nothing to do with what you say or in most cases how you say it. The “problem” is not with the poster, but with the receiver being triggered by some unresolved issue. sometimes I (we?) might like to “blame” the poster for being insiensitive or whatever word we want to use, but in the end, the REACTION we have to ANY post (even a disrespectful one) is OUR REACTION. OUR FEELINGS and no one can MAKE us “feel bad” or “be hurt” if we don’t allow it.
I can be “mean” and call you a “doo doo” but YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CHOSES TO LET THAT HURT YOU—-I have only the control over your feelings that YOU allow me to have.
What we are doing in our healing is TAKING BACK CONTROL of our feelings from others that we had given them. There was a time when my P-son saying something hateful to me broke my heart, but now those same words would bounce off like water off a tuck’s back because I no longer ALLOW his words to hurt me. I have taken back CONTROL from him. I am learning to take back total control of my reactions to other’s words or deeds as well, but it is a long process and I am still a “work in progress.”
Thank you ALL and especially Steve, for bearing with me as I make the journey toward the “ciity limits of Healing.”
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learnthelesson says:
Ablessingd said
“Hmm, I am a diagnosed sociopath but I don’t find ways to manipulate people when I’m bored. In fact, I don’t do it at all.
Just because I lack in empathy and remorse doesn’t mean I wish anything bad on anyone. I’m a kind and caring person, I go out of my way for others, but I struggle with certain emotions that others readily feel.”
————————-
My first response was what Steve said… perhaps this was a misdiagnoses…My second response was and always will be something I briefly touched on with Kathleen Hawk many many months ago…. my experience was almost as if MANY OF THE THINGS MY X-TOX DID WERE NEVER FROM A PLACE OF INTENTIONAL HARM…ALTHOUGH THEY WERE WRONG…THEY WERE MORE FROM A PLACE OF SELFISHNESS AND ABSOLUTELY NO INHERENT UNDERSTANDING OF THE CONSEQUENCES TO HIS ACTIONS.
I AM MOST CERTAIN THAT THERE IS A SPECTRUM OF SOCIOPATHS..AND THAT SOME EXHIBIT ALL OF THE HORRIFIC BEHAVIORS AND INTENTIONS THAT STEVE AND SO MANY OTHERS HAVE EXPERIENCED IN HORRIFIC RELATIONSHIPS WITH SOCIOPATHS…SOME WHO HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BOUNDARIES WITH EXPLOITATION AND MANIPULATION… BUT I EXPERIENCED A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE WHO TRULY BELIEVED HE WAS KIND AND GOOD IN HIS OWN WORLD (MAYBE A CASE OF UNKNOWINGLY MANIPULATING HIMSELF IF THATS POSSIBLE??) HE DISPLAYED VERY LITTLE UNDERSTANDING IN SOCIAL SKILLS (EXCEPT FOR INITIAL FEW MONTHS OF MIRRORING OR BEHAVING THE “LEARNED WAY” FROM HIS PRIOR EXPERIENCES, BUT HIS CORE, HIS BEING WAS CLUELESS ABOUT HOW TO GIVE/RECIPROCATE NORMAL HUMAN INTERPERSONAL INTERACTION BOTH SOCIALLY AND INTIMATELY. CANT EXPLAIN IT.
BUT DEAR OXY, IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT YOUR EXPERIENCE IS WITH THE FARTHEST END OF THE SPECTRUM OF SOCIOPATHY AND I UNDERSTAND THE TRIGGERS THAT CROSS YOUR BOUNDARIES.
IMHO, SOCIOPATHY IS NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE AS OTHERS MAY CONCLUDE IT TO BE…IT IS CLEARLY WHAT THEY ARE ON ALL LEVELS OF THE SPECTRUM…A MYSTERY …IN THE LIVING AND LIFESTYLE AND CHOICES OF UNUSUAL INDIVIDUALS…
SOME INTENTIONAL CALCULATED AND THOUGHT OUT…AND FOR OTHERS ITS A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OR INABILITY TO HAVE TRUE EMPATHY COMPASSION OR “A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EMOTIONS” THAT OTHERS HAVE….
EITHER WAY… A SOCIOPATH WHO SAYS HE IS DIAGNOSED AS SUCH HAS THE ABILITY TO SEEK AND LEARN AND CHOOSE TO GROW AS A PERSON TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY …SO THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR USING OR EMOTIONALLY ABUSING OTHERS IF YOU ARE AWARE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT – SEEK TREATMENT. FOR OTHER SOCIOPATHS (UNDIAGNOSED OR IN DENIAL) WHO ROAM THE EARTH – THERE IS NO HOPE FOR THEM ONLY FOR US TO REMAIN NC WITH THEM!!!!!! BECAUSE THEY SEEK NO HELP/THERAPY AND BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHOICES AND UNHEALTHY WAYS OF LIVING AND BEING IN RELATIONSHIPS… NC IS LIFE CHANGING FOR THE BETTER!!!!!!!
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Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, thanks for your illuminating explanation. You are describing a very complicated, sensitive experience and I salute you for the honesty and great personal insight with which you share it.
Steve
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, it sounds like you’re doing a lot of work with this.
Here’s another thought on the topic, which may or may not be useful. When other people are triggered, there’s no question that it’s their stuff. This thing with Steve and the self-described sociopath is a great case study. We are all (me included) highly sensitive on this issue. We don’t want them around. We want this place to be a safe (as much as possible, given that it’s a public forum) place for us to mutually support each other. And a lot of us get triggered — in various ways, depending on where we are in our healing — if one shows up, or if we think one of us isn’t taking it seriously enough.
But what about if we trigger each other? By talking our own truth, and maybe being pretty adamant about it. I think it’s virtually impossible for us to not do that, if we have strong opinions. I’ve been in this situation a few times, both in blogging and in writing the articles. Something I wrote hit a vulnerable spot on someone else, and that person reacted emotionally.
I’ve been really challenged by these situations. My first reaction is kind of defensive. Why are they trying to make me wrong, and getting so forcefully emotional about it? But for me, the harder part is realizing that often there is no way to build a bridge that solves the problem. Our bases of belief are simply different. Sometimes it’s because we’re in dramatically different stages of healing, which affects the way we see the world. But sometimes it’s because we just have fundamentally different beliefs about how things work, under any circumstances. If we talk about those things, we are always going disagree.
Which eliminates all possibility of an intellectual, rational solution and brings me back to the emotional content. This person is in pain and she regards me as the source. At that point, it doesn’t really matter who’s wrong or right, since there’s no resolution there anyway. It doesn’t do any good for me to point out that she’s projecting some personal issue on me, because because she’s going to hear it as me being patronizing or non-responsive. The only piece of this that offers a possible way to connect with her and resolve this is if I recognize that she’s in pain. And she’s being brave and trusting me enough to tell to me about it, rather than crawling under the covers to suck her thumb or going off to badmouth me to someone else.
If I see this, I don’t have to do anything about it. I can shrug it off as her problem, and probably some kind of learning process for her. I can leave her to it.
Or, if I care enough, I can respect that there’s probably a reason for the feelings that’s important to her, even if it doesn’t make sense to me, and just be there with her. It’s no skin off my nose to acknowledge how she feels. It doesn’t mean I’m agreeing with anything more than that she feels that way, and that I care about the fact that she’s suffering.
I’ve learned more about mutual comfort and support on LoveFraud than I’ve learned in my entire life. Through the support I’ve received and seen given to other people. And, of course, through the ways I’ve triggered people, and the mistakes I’ve made in dealing with them. I believe in something I call “feedback from the universe.” If something I do has results I don’t want, then I try to figure out what there is to learn from that. And I’m slowly getting better at speaking from my heart, and being less of a know-it-all. It’s work, because being a know-it-all is a way I protect myself. Naturally it is the single biggest thing about me that draws fire, because all of us are sensitive about being victims of misused authority.
So, I guess that where I’m going with this is related to my last post on self-love. None of us are perfect, but all of us are lovable. All of us have important reasons for how we feel, whether or not anyone else understand them. If our friend gets afraid or angry or hurt with us, it’s happening in their world. We have to respect that. If we’re not triggered too, we can be with them, while they talk it out for themselves, be compassionate about their feelings without arguing about why they’re having them, or without thinking it’s about us.
And fortunately, most of the time, when one person is triggered, the other one isn’t. But if both are, eventually one person is going to have to postpone getting their acknowledgement and be a friend to the other person, until the other person is okay enough to return the favor. In all of it, the content of the issue is probably less important than the emotions involved.
Oxy, thanks for your insightful and thought-provoking post. I’m so sorry you’ve been through a painful situation. You’re my good and valued friend, and my heart is with you.
Kathy
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justabouthealed says:
Good posts, Kathleen, your honesty is inspiring. You too Oxy….well LF posters in general too!
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PInow says:
I missed you all. It was a crazy day. I Got a third formal diagnosis of PTSD. Lovely I thought, and asked “How Bad?” and she said: “Extreme”.
Perhaps, it is boredom that drives my P now to proclaim himself “Married” to an American woman he’d met in Europe and has kids with. Not only is he married to a Mexican he has not lived with in the last 3,5 years, but he is also living with his student, while doing another. Lucky for me, I have a friend, who – wait a minute, is friends with P and totally feeds him the information. Betrayal upon betrayal. I am starting to believe they write Drama out of boredom, sheer lack of purpose and real life goals. But, I never realized that the fact that he would so quickly delete me from his biography and assign my child to a totally different woman, would make me so crazed.
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OxDrover says:
LTL,
I’m not sure I understand all your above post, but while I do agree with you that there are ALL levels of psychopaths, as a medical and psychological professional I DO KNOW that if you “qualify” to be “diagnosed” by a professional as ONE you have done some horrible pattern of behaviors over a long period of time not just a few days or one or two instances. HORRIBLE! MANIPULATIVE AND WITH MALICE. In fact, more psychopaths are UNdiagnosed even by the professionals they see than are diagnosed, usually only people who have a SIGNIFICANT CRIMINAL HISTORY are ever diagnosed, as psychologists and psychiatrists seem loath to “label” people PPDs or ASPDs.
There is a pretty good chance a PPD will go UNdiagnosed or UNlabeled and little if any chance that a “kind and caring” and non-manipulative person will be MIS-diagnosed.
Yes, I have been engaged with the UPPER spectrum of Ps in my family, but I have ALSO been engaged with MANY LOWER LEVEL Ps in my business and professional life, and even dated a few of the NON-physically violent ones. so my experience with Ps covers a WIDE RANGE of Ps not just the MOST VIOLENT. I have in the last year just gone NC with several low level Ps that were in my “close circle” that I tolerated for a long time—walking on egg shells around then so I didn’t set them off. NO MORE. THERE IS A NO TOLERANCE POLICY FOR Ps now with me.
I think there are people who are “clueless” about social skills and how to give and take, but that ALONE doesn’t make them a psychopath, hard-wired or otherwise. It simply makes them pitiful.
I disagree with you that “sociopathy is not black and white” because I believe it is…however on a SCALE of from “bad to worse”….anyone who will “qualify” to be clinically and legally diagnosed is a BAAAAAAD ACTOR and no two ways about it. By the time they are an adult they either is or they ain’t a P. they may be a serial killer, or they may be president of the US but either way, they are self centered, manipulating, using, abusing, etc and have NO empathy or carinig for others. Bernie Madoff didn’t kill any one, ,he just stole 50 billion bucks and left 100s of thousands of people and institutions dead broke. Is he a “white psychopath” where Ted Bundy is a “black one”? Not in MY BOOK. In my book they are BOTH A 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. both took what they wanted without any thought of the devestation they were doing to others by obtaining what they wanted, in Madoff’s case money, power and control, in Ted’s case, sex and to view suffering. It is some comfort to me that both of them will/did draw their last last breath behind prison walls. I hope Madoff lives to be 100.
As far as “levels of Ps” it is sort of like RATTLE SNAKES come in all sizes from about 6 inches to over 6 ft long, they are all poison and under the right conditions can kill a person. The little ones don’t contain as MUCH jvenom as a big one, but their poison is actually MORE deadly per cc as a big one, but a big one can strike further and give you a bigger dose of poison, but you are more likely to see him before he gets a chance to strike at you….and sometimes he will warn you with a rattle first. But a P is a P is a P is a P, and they are ALL TOXIC, and none of them are the “garter snakes” which can’t hurt you, they are all vipers.
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OxDrover says:
Dear PI,
I think we posted over each other, but WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF Ps—–NEVERLAND! OZ! WONDERLAND! Where up is down and left is right, and high is low, and right is left and….oh, well, you get the idea.
I am sure many here can relate to the EXTREME PTSD, the best therapy that helped me with the worst of the PTSD was “rapid eye movement therapy” and it really DID HELP A LOT. Not sure of the why, but sure of the it HELPED! and quickly! Google it and you will get some ideas about it. It might be of help to you. It is “mainstream” therapy not off the wall stuff so isn’t experimental or anything, just not as easy to find as “talk therapy” or other kinds.
I still get triggered from time to time, but am starting to recognize when I am and not react so extremely….and “catch myself” before I go off the DEEP END COMPLETELY. In the worst of teh PTSD I was “crazy as a chit-house rat” most of the time and the sun coming up or going down could trigger me! LOL
Glad you are here, keep on putting one foot in front of the other, it does get better!
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PInow says:
I don’t know if you realize that I had to change from Katya, and since I’ve been investigating so much and with such horrible discoveries I now am forced to identify myself with what I do the most of:PI. It was an EMDR counselor that diagnosed me after the first therapist turned out to be triggered by my stories and the second is still with me but does not do EMDR. So, some friends recommended her. It is very humbling to know exactly what our clients suffer from. A friend said this: PTSD is a Normal Response to a very UBnormal stress.
I could have / would have expected anything from the P, I guess. But the fact that he did not just deny me, he denied our son’s existence hurt me far worse then I was prepared for. I want to scream. yet, I have to get up and go to work, and cook and be good to kids and be with my parents who remind me that it was all my fault and then apologize and cry right along with me. It’s just too much, way too much than a human should be able to handle. In a war, you know the enemy. The Ps look and act like a friend, nothing personal: it’s what they do. OH, how much I want to talk to someone about Not without my daughter, a book and a film that came out years ago…
Anyway, Thank you, Oxy, as always, you are a wonderful support to all of us. And I agree with you about the extent of the dysfunction. In my mind, the mellows are the S and the extreme creeper like mine was is a P. Funny how many still believe him. Scary, how scary for me to even think that a physical abuse would have been easier to deal with than an emotional constant manipulation of my life. Here is to the 3,5 lost years and G-d knows how many more before I regain myself enough to fight the Ps. (Oh, I am waging a war on them as soon as I am well enough).
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sabrina says:
Oxy- just a question or if anyone else wants to respond- Do you think- given the “fact” that no moral compass is there for P’s- that all P’s “have it in them” to commit violent crimes, abuse, theft, and any other type crime imaginable?? Just b/c they may not have gotten to that point yet, do you believe that circumstances could easily put them at risk for such ?
I tend to think that a P could easily turn violent, or any of the above. Has anyone dealt with P’s that you believe could or would never turn criminal? You mentioned different degrees of sociopathy, is this what you were meaning by it?
I am sorry Oxy that you were so badly triggered by the post the other day. We all understand where you are coming from and I hope your dreams will be free from P’s from now on!!
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ErinBrockovich says:
Sabrina:
I personally think anyone is capable of anything.
I believe a S, will stop at nothing if that is what is required. They get so intent on ‘winning’ that if this is the ‘goal’……what’s going to get in their way?
If you look at Scott Peterson case…..it’s a good example.
I use him, because he is attractive, charming and someone most of us would have had over for dinner and NEVER SUSPECTED! BUT…..even as they looked for Lacy…..he was continuing the lies……affair…..never thinking in a million years anyone was on to him……he thought he would get away with it.
I say…..never discount what they are capable of doing!!! Or anyone else for that matter!
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witsend says:
Sabrina,
A thought provoking question for sure…..I have to say that I agree with Erin.
I think generally speaking as human beings anyone is capable of doing things they might not normally do under certain circumstance. For most of us it is CIRCUMSTANCE that would make us cross “that” line. How many times have you heard a story of the battered wife who murdered her husband/boyfriend? Do you really think this woman is a threat to society? Do you think she would have been capable of murder, if she was not beaten & emotionally abused?
My personal opinion is NO, I don’t believe she would be capable of that under any other circumstance.
Even in our society right now with the recession. People are commiting petty crimes that might not have ever stolen before in their lives. Stealing food for their family to eat.
Survival mode is a human condition that is strong within all of us. Many of us might never face what might “push us” over the edge. The difference is that the circumstance drove these people, and there is remorse.
As far as an P is concerned, because of the lack of moral compass, empathy, and regard in general for or anyone or anything……That is the big question.
I think it is a mistake to “generalize” P’s. Anymore than you can generalize any particular “group” in society. Because of the lack of empathy, it is definately something to consider that a P is more prone to violence. (and for sure capable of it)
But there again there is a broad spectrum. Some P/S/N can hold down high profile jobs and many can not keep a job. (so as much as they are the “same” they are also “different”)
My opinion is that again their circumstance & also the p’s intelligence level will often determine, how much crime, violence, etc they will commit……It is not empathy or moral judgement that would stop a P from commiting an act of violence. It would just be simply not wanting to get caught. The act “itself” of violence, or crime is without remorse, guilt, empathy.
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justabouthealed says:
Speaking of triggers….the whole thing with Mark Sanford has been a huge trigger for me. Too many similiarities in the email exchanges and being great distances apart, the huge difference in income, etc. etc. And it is as if every article I read that says he is truly in love with her is so painful to me. MAYBE in his case it is true, but collectively, face to face, they haven’t spend more than a few weeks in each other’s company. I spent maybe two weeks face to face, stretched out over 4 meetings. Like in my case, they were “friends”. So it stirs up my “maybe he DID love me” feelings that I’ve been way past!!!! For SOOOO long. ARGGH. I see red flags about the governor, and mine had so many, many more and multiple affairs and would adore and then dump when you least expected it. But when the media (some) go on and on about the wonderful emails I get sick to my stomach! Those are just words. How loving was it of him to put her in that situation? Mine said things like “I’m trying to breathe your molecules” when he would visit a place he knew I had been. “I look for your face every where I go” JUST WORDS. With the emotional depth of teens. I HATE THAT THIS IS SUCH A TRIGGER for me or creating PTSD symptoms. UGHHHH. Help!
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OxDrover says:
I agree with the “anyone can be pushed to anything” scenario, either by fear, pain or being gaslighted..I think there have been enough proofs of this with the research that has been done on how “guards” and “prisoners” will start to behave and also teh Nazi prison camps and other such “experiments.” “Man’s inhumanity to man” is a FACT in my mind and I think under the right circumstances any of us could be violent, I just think the Psychopath, without any empathy to start with is MORE PRONE to violence and I think the “public personna” such as Scot Peterson’s is a perfect example of one that “appears” normal but is in fact a MONSTER! Ted Bundy is another one. BTK is a third off the top of my head.
I think SOME Ps are very COVERT and some are OVERT not caring what you think of them.
For example, think of the P who is a “motorcycle gang member” and he strust down the street TRYING to appear DANGEROUS, and he most likely IS dangerous. Then there is Scot Peterson, COVERTLY appearing like everyone’s nice neighbor. Which is the MOST dangerous? The answer is that they are BOTH DANGEROUS, one overtly and one covertly.
Many if not most of us have dealt with the COVERT kind of psychpath who isn’t going to strut down the street trying to make others aftraid of him, but the covert kind is JUST AS DANGEROUS as I think we can all attest.
I have been unfortunate enough to deal with BOTH kinds and I don’t find a thinble-full o f difference in the danger they are. Both kinds have tried to kill me. Both kinds have lied to me, both kinds have tried to undermine my life, both kinds have stolen from me, both kinds have run smear campaigns against me, both kinds have run fear campaigns against me.
The ones who are “sneaky” are in some ways more dangerous because they are like snakes in the grass.
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Oxy,
I understand that you dont understand all of my post because even I wrote “I cant explain” what Im trying to express/articulate about my perception/experience with my x-tox. Its all so rather complicated on so many levels…what would his diagnosis be? Just a pathetic pitiful clueless person or a low level P or socially dysfunctional or a product of an abusive upbringing where he wasnt as “hardwired” as others who were able to learn and grow from his life experiences and remains stunted….
You verbalized pretty much what I was trying to get across in my post.. so thanks for that… I just have this perception that there are a wide range of/reasons for S/P/N….not that either of them matter…. the bottom line is they are ALL TOXIC. I was really responding to a person who said he was diagnosed a P and stated ”
“I dont find ways to manipulate people when Im bored. Just because I lack in empathy and remorse doesn’t mean I wish anything bad on anyone. I’m a kind and caring person, I go out of my way for others, but I struggle with certain emotions that others readily feel.”
His statements struck a chord where my x tox was concerned. I could never wrap my head around how he chose to live his life, treat others, live, etc…and to this day seems confused about how many relationships he has lost and friends he has hurt. Not that he has remorse about it, but he said “people come and go from my life all the time…whats the big deal? As if he is immune to his ways and expects no real connections with anyone. Again, I cant really explain it in a way that would be understood, because I dont even understand it.
NC with him was the only choice I had because he was a combination of clueless, pitiful and probably a low level P, just an awful friend, lover, giver, emoter…. yet clueless about it in so many ways.
I have come to understand they are in life what I call my “AVOIDERS” – I avoid them in terms of welcoming them into my life on a social or personal level ever ever again. As you say, they are ALL DANGEROUS to me if my guard is ever down. But I will say I have no problem suggesting they seek help, a mirror and a good dose of the bible, etc…. Ultimately it does no good to go there, but it does me good to see how far Ive come with protecting myself, speaking up and moving on.
Re: triggers….Ill always have em, but they help keep me one step ahead by the time Ive sorted them out…:) and Kathleen, your posts are always helpful and useful…ALWAYS…thanks for wearing your heart and soul on your sleeve here at LF….
I have been missing my daily dose of LF…. spending my days at my sons camp from 9 – 3…enjoying the sights and fresh air and walking the grounds for hours with my ipod. Started taking pictures of the campers experience to pass the time inbetween his bloodsugar checks and insuling dosing, etc…. at the end of camp everyone will be able to take home the action shots of their summer camp days…. say a prayer I havent cut too many heads off in the frame!
)
Everyone here sounds like they are doing well or trying very hard to get their experience (with a P) behind them.. or obviously just finding LF and just beginning to awaken to what theyve been through…whatever the case may be…ITS A JOURNEY…but its one well worth taking…I have a renewed sense about myself and others and life in general. Im more aware of so much and more grounded with my choices with others (letting them in or getting them out of my life). Life is worth trying to sort our way through…it aint easy and the truth will set you free…but piss you off first for sure…and then there is healing and growing and learning out there for all of us…. if we opt for it and commit to NC.
Much love and healing to all, LTL
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witsend says:
Learnthelesson,
I’m glad to hear how you are doing and that you are enjoying the summer at your sons camp.
Your such an awesom mom!
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OxDrover says:
Dear LTL,
I’m glad your kid is at camp, I think that is so important. My son D is working at BSA camp this summer, every summer since he was 14 except for 2, one the year of the airplane crash and another one he missed as well…he comes back renewed from his counseling and “programming” for the kids. I’m not sure he doesn’t get more out of it than the kids do, because it is so rewarding to him to see the growth of the kids from year to year.
Dear Witsend,
How are you doing, sweetie, you are in my prayers daily! I’ve been kinda feeling bum again this summer and apprently had another round of tick fever, but went to the doc and got some antibiotics and actually am feeling better now, more energy and spunk. Still too hot to do much outside except in the mornings or evenings
I hope you are doing better and your son too! (((hugs))))
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Witsend,
I think of you from time to time, with prayers and peacefulness going your way… you, too are one heck of a Mom, lady! Your journey with your husband and recently with your son has challenged you beyond measures one should ever have to endure… no doubt in my mind you’re gonna make it through…and hopefully your son will find his path or a path that eventually lends toward less difficult days for your family.
Take care of yourself and I try to check for everyones updates over the weekends. Hope you are doing okay!
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witsend says:
Dearest Oxy,
I am hanging in there……Summer there is no school and so there is a bit less “daily” stress over here. So there are some better days and there are some bad days. I am trying to pay close attention what triggers my sons bad days. To see if there is any rhyme or reason to his behaviour/moods.
I am keeping busy reading my books that I ordered.
And trying to focus on my work that for awile I wasn’t able to focus properly on.
My little dog was sick again and I took her to the vet today and I was afraid I might not bring her home as she went downhill very quickly in a 24 hour period. He treated her for dehydration right in the office and hoked her to an IV. And gave her a shot that put her out in the car ride home. He gave me hope that she will be ok and he gave her pretty aggressive treatment.
I love your wisdom Oxy….thanks for thinking of us in your prayers.
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learnthelesson says:
Dear Oxy,
Smiles…to you and yours. Another round of tick fever? Oh my gosh…we need to make sure you are covered from head to toe out there on the farm before going outside. But Im glad you are feeling better…take it easy…those tick bites can really knock ya for a loop! Be well. ps. Thanks for sharing your advice and amazing wisdom and posts to everyone full of such REALNESS in this crazy world!!!!
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OxDrover says:
Thanks, Witsend and LTL,
Well, at least I didn’t wait two months before I finally got to the doc for some tests THIS TIME! Medical personnel are SUCH BAD PATIENTS, cause we have no patience! LOL
Maybe feeling bad is why I am so cranky lately! that and too hot to ride any, so cooped up in the house and that’s not my thing! LOL Garden is a disaster except for teh squash and garlic, green tomatoes look like marbles and not many oif them. Should be big ripe ones by now!
I did enjoy watching the new baby goats coming in from the pasture this afternoon, they are only a little over a week old and sooooo cute, just learning to frolic and follow their mother and not have to be carried to pasture with her. Sometimes just a few minutes of something really nice, peaceful and good, mends the soul for hours or days….just like the reverse can be true, something ttriggers us and “ruins” the day or the week.
Focusing on the GOOD and trying to let go of the bad is an ongoing process I know….even though sometimes the bad seems to overwhelm us and we are blinded to the GOOD things we still have with us…keeping in mind that for most of us, truly there is more good than bad now that we are (mostly) away from the Ps, but even if we still have “problems” we need to take some time for ourselves. (((hugs))) and always my prayers.
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sabrina says:
Witsend, Good to hear back from you. Its good that things are pretty smooth with your son. I hope that the shows you attended were productive. I didnt read how those went, if you’ve already posted anything about it.Just curious if you were happy with the results and wishing you the best. take care all..
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witsend says:
Sabrina,
Hi the show was decent. Attendance was way down. But those that were there were buying some. The economy has taken its toll on this business for sure! And the day was VERY hot. and high humidity.
One thing I have noticed that really has something to do with my sons ups and downs is sleep patterns. I have not figured it out quite yet, but it does contribute something. With the summer months and less structure as far as waking time & bed time….Did you notice any unusual sleep patterns with your son and any contribution to his moods/behavior?
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britneyhammer says:
Hi LFer’s,
I really need to check in daily as I know how much all of you help me. Wednesday was my 53rd birthday and I felt so tired and “used up”. I feel like I gave my best years (12 of them) to my ex-s and the vitality and energy to live is not going to return. Admidst a very severe addiction to Oxycontin (that he introduced me to) and spending thousands of dollars from my trust, constant companionship OR me feebily trying to get him out of my life–(I have major abandonment issues from childhood that I’ve been working on, off and on for many years)…he finally left me and suddenly met a young waitress that he met, mother of 5 (4 taken away from her by DSS) and got married within a 2 or 3 month period.
It’s the best thing that could have ever happened but the abandonment and betrayal have taken such a toll on me. Then he decided to push back into my life (I was very vulnerable and lonely) and play “BEST FRIENDS” only to use me for money and medication and a shoulder to cry on for another year. Again, I tried to end it many times and finally did when I sent a 10 page letter to his wife and mother revealing many “secrets” only I was privy to- and telling them I wanted to live my own life, etc.
So here I am, he tried to call me twice since then (end of April) unsucessfully, and I had a slip when I was going to lose my job due to a company buy-out and i was very tired and weak, not thinking and wanted some comfort.
He told me he wasn’t abusing drugs, he had stopped lying and his marriage was good. I find this hard to believe as he has lied and abused drugs ever since I’ve known him. …YET I CAN’t help but belive HE IS NOW THE PERSON THAT I WANTED HIM TO BE….and I had that magical thinking and still have it frequently, but especially on my birthday that if he were to call that I would be okay..I would instantly be happy, comforted, feel safe, etc. Then of course, he would preach his undying love for me and say I was the only woman he’s ever loved and he is so so sorry for all the hurt he has caused me…he is a changed man. He is the person I always dreamed he could be, etc. blah blah blah
It’s so ridiculous when I write it all out! i need to find that happiness within that I once had but lost somewhere along the way. It seems so far and out of reach right now and i get so tired of trying, trying, therapy, books, trying to muster up enthusiasm to make the day a good one and falling so short each day.
I have such anger towards this person, sometimes homicidal although I would never do it. I also get suicidal thoughts-but no plan and I doubt I would do that eiether- I just want freedom from this terrible decade plus with this sick, manipulative man….who is on to his next victim and his thoughts are probably so so not on me-yet I still feel addicted to him. such anger and hate-then longing and make believe of this “Prince Charming” tha never existed except in my own head.
I know some of you may be able to relate and as always, I would love the feedback and HELP!
Thanks, britney
P.S. I gotta go out for an errand but will check back when I get back to see if anyone has commented. I am so grateful for all of you and this site.
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