Boredom and the sociopath
What’s the relationship, if any, between boredom and sociopathy?
Can we can agree, for starters, that boredom does not cause sociopathy? Otherwise most of us would be sociopaths.
Can we also agree that a low tolerance for boredom, alone, does not cause sociopathy. Otherwise again, many of us with low tolerances for boredom (not that I include myself, but God, am I bored) would be sociopaths; and this isn’t the case, either. That is, even most of us with low tolerances for boredom aren’t sociopaths.
However, research suggests that sociopaths may require higher levels of arousal to escape conditions of boredom. So apart from being prone to boredom and finding it extremely oppressive, it may be the case that sociopaths tend to resort to high arousing, high risk solutions to their boredom.
I think we edge closer to a link between boredom and sociopathy when we note that, if nothing else, boredom seems to be a medium, a highly conductive state or field, for the emergence of sociopathic behaviors.
That is, sociopaths seem to find in states of boredom fertile play for their sociopathy. As noted, they seem at risk of solving their boredom sociopathically. States of boredom tend to elicit, coax into the open the sociopath’s sociopathy.
Why? What it is about boredom that makes it perhaps especially conductive of the sociopath’s acting-out? In point of fact, it is less the properties of boredom than the properties of the sociopath that answer this question.
The sociopath is, foremost, an outrageously self-centered specimen. His exclusive interest in his own comfort, gratification and entertainment (and cold uninterest in others’) compels, along with incredulity, a morbid fascination with his interpersonal perversity.
I’d suggest that among the last things the sociopath wants to face, besides extreme pain, is boredom. The sociopath wants to feel entertained, stimulated and comfortable; boredom provides none of these. Moreover, and consistent with his pathological narcissism, the sociopath feels he shouldn’t have to be bored. He feels absolutely entitled to relief from his boredom.
Now we might still say, big deal?…doesn’t this still describe many of us who aren’t sociopaths, yet for whom boredom makes our skin crawl?
What I think distinguishes the sociopath in all this isn’t his entitled claim to relief from states of boredom or even, by itself, his arguable gravitation to higher risk, higher arousing solutions to his boredom. Rather, I think it’s his entitled claim to relief from states of boredom with virtual utter disregard for how he achieves his relief.
In other words, for the sociopath, basically whatever it takes to solve his boredom, at whatever expense to whomever, is a go. Where the nonsociopath itching for escape from his boredom is chastened by a sense of accountability to others—by the implicit social contract to respect others’ boundaries—the sociopath is undeterred by, and abrogates, such social contracts. They are a joke to him.
Intellectally, he is aware of them and, when expedient, may play-act them. But he regards them, truthfully, as utterly controvertible anytime he finds it convenient to controvert them. Furthermore he harbors, secretly when not transparently, contempt for anyone dumb enough to be bound by such contracts. Certainly he isn’t.
And so the bored sociopath is dangerously poised to exploit. Unburdened (if not stimulated) by the prospect of his exploitation, he finds countless opportunities to gratify himself at others’ expense. He can rob someone, or cheat someone, or cheat a hundred people, or get plastered and drive maniacally; he can scare someone, or lie audaciously with convincing sincerity; and in so doing he can ignore the wreckage he wreaks because what matters, what only matters, is the satisfaction in it for him.
The sociopath’s deranged self-centeredeness protects him from the scourge of regret. Where regret may torture the normal person, keep him up at night, awaken him to troubled memories, reflection, and perhaps even a rethinking of his priorities, not so for the sociopath.
At most, regret has a superficial effect on him; he might regret, if anything, the inconvenience of his present situation; but not, it’s safe to say, the dignity, security and trust he robbed from the victims across his life.
(My use of “he” in this post is not meant to suggest that males have a patent on the behaviors and attitudes discussed. This article is copyrighted (c) 2009 by Steve Becker, LCSW.)
written by Steve Becker, LCSW • Permalink •
Rosa says:
This is right on. Most people, read a book, go to the gym, see a show, go on a trip when they are bored.
A sociopath will wreck a marraige, steal money, molest a child, etc.
In addition to being bored, another state that is unbearable for the sociopath (at least from my own experience) is BEING ALONE.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:43am
newlife08 says:
So this explains why he could only handle family life in small doses. Heliked to come home to family and a good meal – but as late as he possibly could 8:00- 8:30- even 9:00 pm on a school night. He didn’t seem to care the kids waited that long to eat dinner with HIM.
Weekends – he took off under the disguise of WORK – and was not even moved by his sons’ pleas to stay home with him.
He would even leave during a week vacation at the shore and say he had to go back home to check on work.
He was never one to sit and watch a movie much – unless he picked it, did not go out to the movies, hated taking the kids to a carnival or to the shore for the night.
He even bought a house down the shore for investment but only joined us a few times over the years.
My daughter’s dream was to sit as a family on the back porch and play a board game after dinner. Not much to ask at all – he just couldn’t do it – unless he had a few drinks.
Over the last years, I now know he relieved his BOREDOM with the following behaviors and as you say – NO REGRET OR CONCERN FOR WHAT IT COST HIS FAMILY:
Affairs -
4 motorcycles
Hells Angels
Bars
Dining out to excess
Jazz clubs
Motorcycle trips
Internet sites for sex – one wife and one ongoing affair were apparently STILL BORING
Always on the phone
Illegitimate business deals
Invention after invention
New vehicles
Always a NEW DEAL ongoing
And the last thing he said going out the door was ” I don’t think I want to be married , but i don’t think I want what is going to go along with not being married”
How inconvenient for him – he lost the best thing he ever had – me and the kids!!!!
Yes , Steve, he robbed my safety, dignity, security and finances – and seems determined to take whatever is left.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:44am
newlife08 says:
Steve ,
After finding all these details out, his recent remark was, ” You are just pissed because now you know I was out living my life , having a great time, partying – and you were home with the kids. ”
No remorse, no regret – and such contempt that I could be content with being with my kids.
Did I miss him? – all the time -and he knew it. Did I want him to be with me – us? All the time. I tried not to nag but the last year together I would remark how nice it was when he WAS around and how the kids were more relaxed. Sure it puffed him up to be desired and needed but it didn’t change anything.
Did it matter? NO.
He’s on his quest for LOVE, HAS THE PERFECT WOMAN NOW -
how long before he gets bored again ???
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:03am
OxDrover says:
Dear Newlife, they can never be UN-bored (how do you like my new word?LOL) for long and as soon as they have “conqueored” that “hill” it becomes old hat and not exciting any more so they must go climb a higher hill, or a different hill. They can never be interested in the “mundane” things in life like playing a board game with their little kids and seeing the child’s eyes light up when they “win” or seeing the child learning to take turns or share—those things that WE find exciting and memorable, they find mundane and ordinary and uninteresting.
Humanbeings as a group have varying levels of tolerance for boredom, and desires for risk taking, but the psychopaths seem to be out at the end of the scale on both. Taking risks (on whatever plane) seems to be the thing that they LIVE FOR. It is what makes life fun for them. There are a few others wh9o are on the risk taking level that they are that are NOT psychoopaths, but many groups of people who are high risk takers by virtue of their profession seem to also have a higher than “average” level of psychopapths among them.
You had talked about yours not liking to be ALONE, my P son and my P sperm donor and several others I have known absolutely cannot stand to be ALONE, and it almost seems that if they did not have someone else to SHARE and SEE their “successful” risky trick, it was like it “didn’t count” if no one else was there to ADMIRE it. My P son and my P sperm donor always ALWAYS had to have an AUDIENCE for their glory.
Not all Ps are that way though, like the serial killers, many of them work alone and in secret and of course do NOT want an audience. Their successful risky behavior is for themselves and themselves alone (if you don’t count the victim being there) Others like BTK killer would taunt the cops as another part of his risk taking behavior.
None of them will ever be satisfied for long though, with whatever “success” they have.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:25am
newlife08 says:
Oxy,
You are so right – as is Steve.
When his best friend asked him why he was in yet ANOTHER relationship besides the other affair, and me – and the internet – he replied he NEEDS companionship – he hates being alone.
The companionship of a doting wife and 2 kids didn’t phase him.
That is why over the 22 years I was very attuned to being home when he expected, didn’t go out on my own – the family was always awaiting his arrival. Hell, he was 45 minutes late for our wedding.
Now he can UNBORE himself to his hearts content!!!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:41am
shabbychic2 says:
I thought HE was boring!!!!! I guess he was relieving his boredom by getting money out of me, that must have been the highlight of his day!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 11:24am
confused2 says:
I just broke up with a S three weeks ago. I known him six months before I became involved with him. I was only with him for five months. I was in denial nearly the whole time, yet I believed he loved me. I’m still going back and forth with the idea he MAY have loved me. Still waiting for him to call me. How sick is that. How can I get him out of my head? I think about him constantly.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:13pm
Escapee says:
Oxy, shabbychic2, Steve,Newlife08
All your comments are so enlightening! I hadn’t considered the ‘boredom’ angle in too detailed a way, although I was aware of his threshold – just thought of it as yet another selfish trait to add to the 14 miles list!
Reflecting back on the S, I now recall so many occasions when he revealed himself in this way: When invited to a ‘family’ occasion (over time, he totally avoided them) “will there be anyone interesting there for me to talk to? Or will it just be all mumsy dadsy and kids?”. “You amuse me – so few woman do” (so grandiose!) – just two red flags. The constant ‘fishing’ trips – yes he did genuinely fish but I alway felt a dis-ease about them – later turned out, he used them as a cover to hook up with his ‘back-burner’ woman – the ones he kept as satellites all over the place to pick up when he found a clandestine opportunity.
Still haven’t estblished if he was actually a sex addict or just an attention junkie – either way, he lied, cheated and deliberately started arguments/created bad situations to set up his ‘exit routes’ – not to mention put me at risk. He actually managed to sneak off to the West indies with ‘one of his women’ for two weeks and conceal it from everyone, including his own sons! It would be funny if it wasn’t for the fact that I and others actaully loved and cared about him……… When found out he actually said ‘I had to lie to you to spare your feelings – otherwise you wouldn’t have entertained me’ – oh, what a guy? All the time, he was sparing my feelings! Silly me. I find it incredulous that he seriously thought that this was a perfectly viable explanation !
Yes – the contempt Newlife08 – I can identify with your outrage and pain!
They have us hanging around like pawns in a game, awaiting the little emperor’s return – this too ‘amused’ him, no doubt – he loved the control.
Newlife – love the comment
‘he can unbore himself to his heart’s content’ –
really made me laugh and struck a chord – you brightened my day – another ‘gem’ to add to my little box of healing thoughts – it’s so wonderfully dismissive! And in the absence of exacting the sort of revenge that I have fantasied about in the past, it’s fairly small fry (to coin a fishing phrase!). Who wants to inhabit the same sewer as them anyway?
Shabbychic – it wasn’t the getting the money out of you that was the highlight, it was the twisted satisfaction that he could that was more important – power, you see – anyway what do I know ? – who wants to examine the contents of their stupid heads?
Maybe once they’ve run out of people to show-off to, they will get their own particular ‘Room 101′ nightmare – being alone……
Thanks all for sharing your wisdom and letting me get this off my chest in a safe place – I’ve been struggling on my own with it – you can only lay so much on friends who haven’t been there – why should they want to understand – it makes one’s life sound so ’skanky’ (an English word for something much less polite)………… Escapee
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:33pm
Joy says:
Confused, One answer. No Contact. Bad relationships with Sp or not never get better. If it is bad so soon into it, even less likely to get better. Rosa, Dead on. They HATE to be ALONE! Maybe the really out there ones with thrill kills like to be alone but then their victim is the ultimate audience as is the investigators and the public at large if ever they are caught. I believe they want to be caught. BTK came out because he couldn’t stand some author of a book stealing his glory. They feed on attention. Their inner world is blank. They are so uninterested in us. Only our entertainment value. They don’t know us, care for us, or remember thing one about us once the new victim is in place. They overlap their relationships so they never risk being alone. They walk away from family, friends, children, spouses, lovers. All for the next fix of new thrill.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:36pm
shabbychic2 says:
confused2: If that is sick, then I’m sick too! I could have written your post myself. I know the S didn’t love me, but I still go back & forth with the idea that maybe he loved me but didn’t realize it, how pathetic is that! I’m in a brain fog over here myself, but getting better little by little. Keep reading the articles & posting, writing about what you are feeling is a great way to help you heal and the people here are very supportive!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:37pm
shabbychic2 says:
Escapee: Hi. You wrote “(he) deliberately started arguments / created bad situations to set up his ‘exit routes’”, wow, I was wondering why he would yell at me (besides being an a**hole). EXIT ROUTES, a light bulb went off in my head!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:46pm
Escapee says:
Conufsed2
Really sad to hear your anguish. Please don’t be tempted back – I, like many others, went back time and time again and wasted years of my life. Be kind to you, stick with the ‘good guys’ and do what’s easy and makes you happy.
He is oblivious to your feelings and doesn’t have the capacity for empathy, except for himself – you’re not sick – you are the one having a normal response to someone you cared for and feeling the loss – except it was just an illusion – only no one told you – sorry if this is a hard thing to hear…. but it wasn’t your fault – don’t be so tough on yourself – you were duped (they work hard at making you stay that way).
Escapee
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:50pm
Rosa says:
BTK and the Uni-Bomber both corresponded with the police and the media for years, if I recall correctly. So, they were not alone, either. They were always “taunting” by sending letters and packages to the media, and the media played right into it and put it on the evening news. Talk about having a captive audience!! It does not get any better than being on the evening news, and paralyzing an entire community in terror for decades to satisfy your narcissism.
I think Jeffrey Dahmer, Charles Manson, and Son of Sam are in a whole other world than sociopaths, both literally and figuratively. These guys have admitted to hearing things, and hallucinating. That is more Schizo than Psycho, as far as I am concerned.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:53pm
confused2 says:
Yes I was duped. He even had his 22 yr old daughter involved in keeping us together. I have the wierd vibe she is just like him. I know I fell in love with a facade, he was to good to be true, I even told him he was perfect. And yet I keep waiting for him to reach out to tell me he’s sorry etc. and yet i don’t want him to. I want him to stay gone. I’m so conflicted and confused over the whole situation.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:59pm
Escapee says:
Shabbychic2
Took me a long time to cotton on to what was going on but once I did, it made all the antagonism make sense (my S was a bit more subtle than just yelling, he knew what buttons to press). Once I got hold of what he was doing, untangling all the other stuff was pretty easy – he wasn’t quite so clever as he thought in covering his tracks – don’t say it with any sense of triumph though – it was very painful and shocking at the time and for a long while after. Times when I wished I could ‘unknow’ what I knew but, truth is, I KNEW there was something. Hard to get a handle on how someone could be so manipulative isn’t it?
In the aftermath though, I think it helps to understand that Ss do this stuff by nature and master it as a skill in daily life. Sometimes wish I could have my ‘innocence’ back though – the world seemed like a nicer place before I knew all this! Not boring at all!
Good wishes for your continued recovery!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:03pm
Escapee says:
Confused2
It’s impossible not to be conflicted when you have been fed so much crap – like I said, you’re supposed to be – it’s what gives them control – they deliberately destablise and undermine what you feel and think with contradictory behaviour – it would almost definitely have cranked up a notch every few months, the longer you were with him – it is loosely their pattern.
If he would ‘use’ his own child, what hope is there for anyone else? She may or may not be like him. My Ss son showed similar tendencies to his repulsive father (cheating on his steady girlfriend, picking fights with her and then going off with other girls – he was also 22!). However, his father would swing from being all over him like a rash to constantly criticising him – approval/disapproval – destablising – see what I mean? The boy had probably endured all these mixed messages from an early age – no wonder he was screwed up. He tried to do the same with me. It IS all very confusing until you grasp the mechanisms they use to keep control of you emotionally – to both meet their ‘needs’ and their desire for power over another.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:14pm
Rosa says:
Mine actually came right out and said it, “I hate being alone.” And he even managed to turn it into a pity play at the same time, by acting like a scared little boy.
Of course, I fell for it at the time.
But, then he also had the audacity to tell me, “If you go digging for dirt, you are probably going to find some.”
Jackpot!!
I believed that, too. So, I went digging for dirt.
The End.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:17pm
confused2 says:
Yes, I could see him using her but I also felt she was in on it with him. When they both started coming to me with how little money they had and hinting if I could help them out with car payments etc. It started out small but I could see it gradually building up. And I still clung to the thought that he loved me and that erased all the bad stuff. I paid for the meals, drinks entertainment, everything. And yet I still kept going back for more “attention”. I don’t even think he wanted me for sex, I think it was all about the money. I feel so used.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:23pm
sabrina says:
Thanks Steve for the article. The P trait of chronic boredom is a subject that I particularly am interested in, as I am on my healing/understanding/discovery journey .
I find myself VERY suspicious of those around my age( 30 to 40’s) who have job, family, and/ or household obligations who complain about being bored.
I feel that with a S it is tied in with being alone, as that is sheer torture for a S. Since their heads are essentially empty and void of what normal people deal with in “real” life- consistent,balanced thought processes, & problem solving that actually put “others” well being into the equation for long term ,
the S lives in an almost child like state of existence based on immediate gratification with no regard to impulse control. I can remember being bored as a small child. Life was simple, with selfish desires that revolved ONLY around MY needs-playtime,food, and attention being the only real focus. It never occurred to me that my caregivers or anyone for that matter had anything better to do than to entertain ME.
Even as I grew alittle older- in my journal at around 10 yrs old. the ‘worth’ of my day- what constituted a good or bad day to me was simply what others did for me- I was taken swimming, shopping, treated in some way. That warranted a smiley face for that day. Days that I was forced to do chores all day,or anything I deemed a waste of time received a sad face to sum up my day.
NON SOCIOPATH adults dont BASE their life satisfaction on what they were able to “get” that day but rather what we are able to give to others,& to succeed is based on our individual standards of progress.
Our measuring stick of quality of life is blended with many pleasures in life that the S can not possibly fathom.
WIth such a simplist, cold blooded predatory vigilance in life to devour and destroy, no wonder when the thrill of their latest “kill” is short lived, they cry boredom with their dead eyed stare! I loathe that look!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:37pm
Escapee says:
Confused2
You are so much further ahead of the game than you realise. You’re facing up to the truth about these two – hers was possibly a learned behaviour -if she was brought up to blag and con, by 22 it would come naturally.
The point is: you WERE used. I know it’s a terribly painful realisation but does it help to know we all were? If you dig a little deeper, you’ll understand why and that might give you some comfort in retrieving your self-esteem. It was because they COULD – from their point of view. And they could, not because you are a fool, but because you are a genuinely kind and thoughtful person – don’t let these half-formed beings robbed you of your precious gifts for empathy. Just get yourself armed to the fact that S/N/P personalities see ‘grace and kindness’ as a frailty to be exploited.
I hope you weren’t stung like I was. At least you had the good sense to get out quick – well done you – be proud and be kind to yourself.
PS Rosa – you make me laugh – no nonense lady!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:57pm
justabouthealed says:
Yes, dead on. ” whatever it takes to solve his boredom, at whatever expense to whomever, is a go.”
Before I realized what I was dealing with, I couldn’t believe the pace at which the P/S/N lived. ALWAYS on the move. Would come home from a month overseas and in two days be off on another trip. And when alone for an evening, would drink a bottle of wine and call women. This from him, a multimillionaire in a huge Mchouse: “I’ve returned to the nothingness I call home”. And always having to do something spectacular and impressive on each birthday, like a marathon run, etc.
But mostly the way he cheated on his wife, even with her best friend because “we were both alone that night” tells the tale. And how he treated the “other” women.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:11pm
Escapee says:
Joy
Really liked your comments about ‘overlapping’ relationships and ‘having their next victim/s lined up’. Bang on. they do have patterns – another piece of info to arm yourself with – my particular Ss phone bill read like a dating diary – calls to me to make his ’stable relationship’ plans and immediate calls/texts to his satellite women to line them up for the ‘gaps’when I wasn’t around – thought I was inventing it all till I talked to some of them! All the time, he was talking about our wedding plans/future together and how it would all be one big pot one day, persuading me to pay for everything -classic! Hope the scumbags all end up alone at the mercy of Nurse Rachett!
Good Night!
Sorry for hogging the page tonight -
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:15pm
confused2 says:
Escapee Shabbychic2
Yes, I do know I was used and they could see that I could be used. I guess I’m upset with myself because I could see the red flags and still denied or ignored them. I held out for the belief that he loved me, and some part of me is still holding on to some hope that he loves or cares for me. I blocked his number from my phone and quit my job because I knew that I would be looking for him to call or come to my place of work to talk to me. Yet I’m still looking for him to say sorry and have an explaination. He was relentless and I was desperate to get away from him and yet I still look for him. I know this says more about me than him. It’s good to talk with someone that’s been there.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:16pm
eyeswideshut says:
Bang on Dr. Steve. It occurs to me that they are constantly bored because they are not engaged in other peoples lives, feelings, emotions and so on. When I am amongst freinds and family we have so MUCH to discuss because we care about each other, we tell stories, we philosophize, we unburden, we seek connection.
None of this is of any interset to the P. Conversations are to indimidate, manipulate and exploit, or for self aggrandizement. Gifts are for show, promises are just words. They are bored because they have no connection to the real people around them, and I believe when they act out to relieve the boredom, through risk taking,conning whatever, they feel in control, as if they are “managing” their boredom and creating the excitment they seek.
Unfortunately in the early stages, the excitment gets us caught up in the vortex as well. They are so charming and exciting and they picked us! Wow, we feel special.
The more I learn the happier I am to be out. Alone and happy,not bored. Massively more free than any P could ever be.
And to Confused, I would like to say, of course it is confusing. And in the early stages very painful and crazy making, when in withdrawal from a P. On good days they mirrored that which we love most about ourselves, or our values and interests. They idealized and flattered and so on. It feels very real and we want that in our lives. The partner,lover,soul mate, companion.
When we have to realize it was all fake, we are letting go a piece of ourselves that was reflected back. Be kind to yourself. Feel proud of coming out of the fog. This too shall pass, and you will be stronger and wiser, likely even happier in the future.
Peace and love
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:21pm
Escapee says:
Confused2
Was just about to go – but get this. I spent all last year doing the same thing. Hating and loathing him while at the same time looking for his car outside my office when I finished – My S was also relentless in his pursuit. All the times over the years I broke away because of ‘I didn’t know what’ and he would come after me. I later found out he’d created situations so I would ‘end things’, he’d go off, have a few weeks of dallying around with whoever (ususally more than one) and then when they’d ’sussed him out’/dumped him or he got bored, he’d be back on my case (took me years before I found all this out).
So you see, your responses are borne out of the confusion as a result of being with an arch manipulator. Because you think with a normal mind, it stands to reason that if you’d wronged or upset someone in some way, you would want to make amends/give some explanation – his head doesn’t work like that. It’s not that he doesn’t think he ought to – it just doesn’t occur to him – if there were some gain on a material level, he might consider it but he knows the game’s up. It takes time – hang in there – he will NEVER say sorry and even if he does (mine did, the first time I got wind of his activities), he won’t MEAN it – it’s just another ploy because he wants something from you – if he still thinks there’s some mileage in you, he’ll be back. I changed my phone number, changed my job and STILL, even though I knew what I knew was looking out for him – it takes time
Take off the mental handcuffs – he has a hold on your mind – work on this and keep telling yourself ‘I choose my truth, not his lies’.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:29pm
justabouthealed says:
Oh, and he gave me The Time Traveler’s Wife (a book) , and wanted to be able to pop in and out of my life, without advance warning, and have me waiting, ready to do whatever he wanted and to love him and then “understand” when he would suddenly disappear from my life until it suited him to pop back in for a few days. I think the book was to help me understand the role he wanted me to play in his life.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:33pm
confused2 says:
eyeswideshut
I’m just so relieved that I found this blog so I have someone to share this with. I haven’t told my friends because I’m embarrassed about the whole thing. You hit upon the very thing that I miss about him, he made me feel special and loved. And I realize it was all fake and yet I still miss the way he made me feel. Everyday I get a tiny bit stronger but I still have my moments of doubt.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:33pm
Escapee says:
Eyeswideshut
Wise words indeed. I arrived at very similar conclusions to you regarding the flattery and being made to feel special. Some days I think I am where you appear to be but then I fall back – but these are becoming fewer and fewer.
Maybe this gives some hope to Confused2.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:36pm
sabrina says:
Confused2- I could have written your post, I too paid dearly for the pathetic tidbits of attention I craved from the lunatic. I paid for meals, household bills, entertainment-even my friends footed the bill for HIM to go to Las Vegas.My attorney friend represented him in a DUI case for free. My parents forked out money for nice gifts for him and his children. All the while, in the 3 years I dated, then married him, he was stealing cash from my business steadily. I was too trusting, too blindly in love to re count the cash that I had thought was accounted for. He thought up brilliant ways to steal even more from me- took my child support arreage checks that I was receiving RANDOMLY from the mailbox and deposited them into a joint account I didnt know about that I HAD TO PAY TAXES ON (otherwise I would of never known about the checks- in my state- interest on old child support past due accounts must be turned in as INCOME and taxes paid on it). Another “trick” was to change my home address thru the IRS and he received my refund check, illegally deposited it into his account after our divorce. No one will say (at IRS) how he was able to accomplish this, and NO ONE, (bank or IRS)cares that I never received the check sent to ME.
SURE it may be illegal as Hell to do these things, BUT try and recover YOUR MONEY AFTER ITS DONE. I know there are FAR WORSE situations here- but maybe this will help some of you to protect your assets-even future checks are ripe for the pickings of these maniacs who will stop at NOTHING to get your cash.
SPeaking of MANIACS,
ROSA- I believe from a previous blog mentioned Charles Manson as possibly being more schizo than sociopathic. From documentaries about him- he exhibited lots of S traits- EVERY nite, he “preached” and force fed his cult members and continously brainwashed them.
His N tendencies were evident, as he set himself up to be a messiah in the eyes of the other members- be made the females believe they were “lucky” to get to have sex with him, he enticed new male cult members by promises of sex with the other women there(again,exploiting others/and promiscuity)
At first, he made it seem to the cult members they were in a safe paradise, then his teachings became more of violence and of the armegedon he envisioned was coming which installed isolation and fear in the members. He made them feel as if he had privaleged information that only he could protect them from. Scarrrry stuff!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:37pm
justabouthealed says:
To those struggling with “I still wonder if he loved me”, etc.
For a long time I went back and forth, did he love me or not, is he a good guy or bad guy. The question I never focused on enough: “Is this a decent way to treat someone?” I had to stop making excuses for him, stop “understanding” and realize IT IS JUST NOT THAT HARD TO TREAT PEOPLE RESPECTFULLY. My one friend said “you teach people how to treat you.What are you teaching him is okay by you?” I realized I needed to focus on what I think is appropriate or not, not focus on pleasing him. Take him off the pedestal, and realize you have great worth and should be treated that way. That is some of what I had to learn.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:42pm
Escapee says:
Confused2
Embarrassed and humilated – I know those two night-time partners. Just two more great big sticks to beat yourself up with – it’s not worth it.
Try to think of it that your embarrassment is caused by what HE did and SAID – no doubt, he worked very hard on you to lull you into the position of giving him money – I went through a phase of feeling that the S had appealed to my vanity and this was my weakness.
I prefer now to think that I gave him credit for being a genuine and feeling human being which, of course, he isn’t. Remember these people work very hard to get what they want from others – wonder they have any energy left over to be bored!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:43pm
Escapee says:
Justabouthealed
Thanks for this one. Reminded me that I need to be asking the right questions and putting the focus back on myself – as do we all to get and stay healthy again.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:48pm
confused2 says:
I know that I’m very lucky I feel that I dodged a bullet. I even went to my doctor and was tested for STD’s, all negative thankfully. He knew he had a hold on me, he even told me he “twisted my mind” and seemed proud of it! I know he was cheating on me although I have no proof, just a gut instinct that he always put down to me “being silly”. He never became angry or upset he seemed so casual and calm. For a long time I thought maybe he was on meds but came to realize he just didn’t care about anything or anyone. He never lost control of himself even when drinking. And I saw a mean streak in him towards the end. But of course in my low times I just remember the good times and how good he made me feel.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:51pm
Escapee says:
Confused2
Don’t know that I’d say lucky dolly – he was a cruel B and the fact that you were prepared to make allowances i.e on meds etc shows your generous spirit and nature. Trust your instincts about the cheating – because the whole importance of sex thing with Ss is just another way of them filling themselves up on constant attention from whoever will provide it – it doesn’t really mean anything to them in the sense of it being something shared.
Hang in there and keep posting amongst friends.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:02pm
confused2 says:
Yes he did need constant attention even when we were out he needed attention from the waitstaff and people at near by tables. He always needed to be the center of attention. A week before I broke up with him I took him to the doctor for a sinus infection. Two days later we went out and I had been drinking and was sick, actually throwing up in the bathroom and asked if he could drive me home and he said no I would be fine. And then let me drive myself home, sick and drunk. It was all about him and his needs, god forbid I should inconvience him. I look back and shudder at myself.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:12pm
Rosa says:
Escapee:
Did I read that you are a Brit (in one of your previous posts)?
I am half Brit, but I live in America.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:21pm
Rosa says:
TILLY!!! PLEASE POST SOMETHING SO WE KNOW THAT YOU ARE OK!!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:22pm
Escapee says:
Confused
You reminded me of stuff I’d forgotten! About the whole restaurant deal – I’m shuddering too – cringing with embarrassment at his constant attempts at getting attention – if it’s of any comfort, I am actually LOL when I think of how ridiculous he was! How could I have taken it seriously?
I ignored all the red flags too. When the shuddering stops (and it will) just say to yourself ‘under what circumstances would I do that to someone else?’ – this gives you the true picture of who you are – not the person who accepted the unacceptable because she was vulnerable and being manipulated by some cruel twisted con-man – and be proud the answer would be ‘I wouldn’t do that under any circumstances’ – get the focus back on you and off him and his actions.
You got out – that’s the true mark of your character – that once you had him taped, your self-preservation instincts served you well and you had the courage to cut the ties. Well done. Try to see your strengths in all this and get beyond it – if you need reinforcement, you’re in the right place here
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:24pm
confused2 says:
Escapee
Yes, you are completely right. The more time I put between him and myself the more I can see his true colours. I have to see the positive in myself and not how he was able to manipulate me. Keep the focus on me and not on him. Thank you for taking the time and talking to me.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:30pm
Escapee says:
Rosa
Yeh – full blooded and in the Uk on this rainy evening (English summers eh?).
Should have known by your ‘turn of phrase’ – very dry…..
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:32pm
Escapee says:
Confused
A pleasure. Keep in touch.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:33pm
shabbychic2 says:
Sorry I dissapeared, I was outside cleaning out the garage, another fun day! I still put on my makeup everday in case he stops by here, I don’t want him to stop by, have been NC for 8 weeks, I really don’t care to ever speak to him again… but if he does stop by here I don’t want to look like chit, I want to look good, like I’ve got it all going on!!! If you could see me without makeup you’d know what I mean! LOL. Every car that drives by I look at, I guess I am waiting for him to ride up on a white horse with roses for me and holding a box full of all the money he owes me. LMAO! Well, sometimes I laugh, sometimes I cry…
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 4:08pm
ANewLily says:
Steve, thank you for the information in this recent article about boredom. Each time I re-read it, I arrive at deeper insights into troublesome questions I had about my ExNPS that never made sense. The insights, even though no longer of current importance, have brought such a deep convictions that my instincts, though damaged, had been in working order!
Especially when you wrote, “However, research suggests that sociopaths may require higher levels of arousal to escape conditions of boredom. So apart from being prone to boredom and finding it extremely oppressive, it may be the case that sociopaths tend to resort to high arousing, high risk solutions to their boredom,” brought closure to a long-felt puzzlement about some activities that my Ex had revealed (after “marriage”) concerning his teenage years. (I met him when he was 20.)
If I knew then what I know now, I would have never accepted another date with him, let alone “married” him!
I am writing them out as a personal journal entry for me. So, I apologize for bypassing others’ comments about this topic.
He grew up on a farm in a small community. He told me that he was so bored after school that all he did year after year and every summer was throw a ball against the barn wall and catch it.
I simply could not understand this choice of activity for such a bright person. I often found myself “alone” on an uncle or aunt’s farm for two week stretches. Boredom was never a problem for me. I always found something fun or productive to do. Ten minutes of throwing a ball against a wall would have been more than enough for me.
Your article helped tie another, but seemingly unrelated, revealed activity together. He confessed that to relieve the anticipated boredom, he would skip school, drive to a nearby town, hire an airplane and pilot and fly over his high school to “buzz” it.
When I asked if he ever got caught, he answered with a huge chuckle, “Of course.” When I asked why he did it over and over again, he answered, “Because it was fun.”
After finally being threatened with expulsion, he arrogantly said, “I just switched to window peeping, skipping the last class of the day so I could still catch the bus home.”
Then, as an after thought, he added, “Well, once I stapled the jeans of the girl to her butt who was sitting in front of me in the last class of the day. That got a huge reaction from everyone” and he laughed and laughed. Aghast, I asked, “Why did you do that?” He answered, “Her butt was just sticking out there and the temptation was just too great.”
Yes, I believe it is true that sociopathy is evident in adolescence. How I wish I had known about sociopathy back then and I wouldn’t have been puzzled at all.
Thanks again, Steve, for this opportunity to finally “put two and two together” and actually come up with the correct answer. There is a certain amount of intellectual comfort in that, even after all these years!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 4:10pm
Escapee says:
Shabbychic2
Take off the make-up and take off the mental handcuffs! He doesn’t care what you look like without your make-up – if he thought you were still his cash-cow, he’d tell you you look better without it!
I put my make-up on everyday FOR ME!
It gets easier – more good days than bad – it takes time and 8 weeks is early days so go easy on yourself.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 4:29pm
JaneSmith says:
Dear Steve,
I was wondering when you are Dr. Leedom were going to write more in detail on the subject of sociopathic boredom. Your article was truly enlightening as was EyesWideShut’s response.
Yes, they cannot connect to us on any level except their own primitive ones. The only time I was ever satisfied with my ex psychos was during physical intimacy. Afterwards, I always felt discarded, somewhat used and dirty. Yet, the chemicals and hormones released during sex kept me in that shameful place. Not so anymore.
I never could quite understand the constant need for stimulation and excitement these guys craved. I’m a quiet little homebody, perfectly content with an engrossing book and some tasty popcorn to munch on while reading. I thought when we would watch a movie that we were being cozy and happy with each other. Well, at least I was.
They were just biding their time until the movie was over so they could have more sex or start digging into me about what is so very wrong with me, or to create draining drama in an effort to start an argument. Because they were intensely bored.
I remember implicitly how the last sociopath I was with (Fall 07-Spring 08) was so restless when we were relaxing in front of the tv, watching a movie, that he was constantly fidgeting. He would prop his leg up on a pillow and it would not cease in twitching. Very disconcerting, distracting and annoying for me. I actually told him how annoying it was and my statement unleashed that sullen, selfish little boy that he really is and off he went, on a tangent about the most insignificant things I did that irritated him. How frikkin draining they are.
I’m glad I’m not the least bit attracted to excitement, thrills and chills. I prefer tranquility, peace and quiet. I never received any of that from my exes. Now, I have it. And I am content.
Thank you, Steve for writing and sharing this with LF.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 5:10pm
Elizabeth Conley says:
The Sociopath I dealt with last year was severely addicted to drama. It took me a long time to figure out that the weeks of calm that I cherished drove him nuts.
I would think to myself, “Gee, things seem to be getting better.” I’d relax, and he’d generate some new stress. It would be a tantrum, a huge upheaval in standard procedures, and argument with someone, or a sexual indiscretion on his part that threatened the reputation, and therefor th existence, of the ministry.
We played this pattern out for years before I realized things were NEVER getting better. Each calm period was simply the eye of a storm.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 5:50pm
endthepain says:
OMG…I didnt realize it..until I let him come cack in my life ahgain..he was all about the drama…loved it…stirred things up and then acted`like he was just an innocent pwrson…I wish I could say the drama with him is over..its peaceful with him gone but he is up to his court antics…so there is never calm before lond…but I agree…they thrive on drama…
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 6:01pm
James says:
Thanks Steve Becker,
Thanks for putting the “boredom” aspect of this side when regarding the sociopath. When I learned about how they can be easily bore I never really gave it much thought. But the way you described it allowed me to put it into a better perspective and deeper understanding. I do agree about the way s/p view/experience it:
“the sociopath is undeterred by, and abrogates, such social contracts. They are a joke to him.”
And I do believe it is a joke for them insomuch they may even brag and “joke” about things they have done too others who they misunderstanding think are more like them. Some are but still some aren’t and walk away feeling unbalanced and spiritually sicken inside. It’s this arrogant and egotistical persona some found so dehumanization estrangement and emotionally immature. How some will kidnap imprison torture and finally kill their prey all out of “boredom”. Now allow me to state this is the most extreme sociopathic person and those with lessen anti-social traits might only verbally emotionally and psychologically damage their “objects” but it still shows the great need to diminish their boredom and not allow spiritual social and/or economical repercussion to hinder or stop them.
Thanks for the insight!!!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 7:37pm
KATYA says:
This is a very pertinent article. My ex would not allow me to say: “I am bored”. When the week was ending, the kids were with their Dad (partially) and my work was done, I’d say that I was bored, which meant usually that I wanted to go out some place, watch a movie, do something new. He’d offer to take me out but I quickly learned that payment for the outing would be on me. So, I sometimes refused to go because I was already supporting him whole lot. Yet, if I ever said I was bored, which I think is a totally normal condition of not wanting to stay in the daily routine and instead diversify the experience, he’d scream that I should never say this. Even then, when I was in darkness, I had no idea why proclamation of boredom would irate him to such a degree. Another thing he’d never let us say is “hate”. Not allowed to say “I hate this movie” or “I hate this”. I think may be he’s gone through counseling, but really did not get what it was intended to give him. What do you thinK?
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 8:19pm
justabouthealed says:
This is a bit off topic, but I just watched the trailer for The Time Traveler’s Wife and it was a bit of a trigger for me. How many of us wanted to believe that our S loved us, wanted us, wanted to be with us….but just couldn’t, like the time traveler in the movie who couldn’t control when he would just disappear, caused by a gene. In a way, the S I knew would just disappear too…caused by some genetic/environmental factor that makes them be who they are. It was never because of something we did. One minute he was there, in love, the next gone. The book (The Time Traveler’s Wife) was a better analogy than I realized at the time!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 8:36pm
Done says:
I could have written this whole thread. Just reading all these posts has got my heart rate up. Confused, and Escapee, we all must have dated the same person. My life was filled with drama whenever I was near the S, and it’s a good point…every time thing would calm down, I’d think they were getting better, then some drama would happen. He must have been bored, so he’d go cheat or lie or stir stuff up in some manner.
My S would talk about boredom. He’d always say he was so bored and so boring. He’d claim to hate drama, and tell me that I caused too much drama-but the reality was he always created situations that would make me lose my mind. He must have done it on purpose. He also would tell me “Well, you are funny…I’ll give you that.” As if that was the only reason he would keep me around.
I also had to pay for everything. I’d try to convince him to stay home instead of going out every night to save money, but we had to go out EVERY night for happy hour, dinner, movie, golf whatever he could nevr stay home and I usually foot the bill. It will take me years to get out of the debt he buried me in.
And talk about self-centered, he DID feel entitled to relief of his boredom at any cost. He felt entitled to EVERYTHING, and somehow would manipulate me into actually believing his explanations for why x or y wasn’t his fault and why he deserved whatever it was he was after. Ugh I am SOOO ANGRY today.
It also sucks because I still wish he would call sometimes, and I still wonder sometimes if he ever loved me. This site is like medication that wears off over the day. The longer I’m away from this site I’ll start thinking, maybe it was me, maybe if I did this or that, maybe he’s not an S, maybe he just didn’t love me, but when I get home and read all of these stories that could be my own I wonder how I could ever doubt that he’s a S.
As far as being embarrassed and humiliated, there is NOONE that I can tell the whole story about the S too that believes me. They are quick to blame me for allowing him to treat me that way. Well sure, that is true, but I would like them to fall off of their high horses because they don’t know how they would react in a similar situation. Anyway I would lie and avoid talking about my S to friends and family like he was a drug habit, bc I was too embarrassed to talk about it.
Everything was a joke to my S, which was a big part of why I was attracted to him. He’s very funny and everyone who knows him (but not the ppl who REALLY know him) used to tell me how funny he was and how he was such a nice guy. He thought everyone was stupid. He even told me that “no one does anything without their own self interest in mind.” and that there was no such thing as a “self-less” act. I’m sure that was true in his world. My S thought he was smarter than everyone. And he *was* smart, but there was not a single person in his life that at some point he didn’t tell me what their problem was and why they were stupid.
Elizabeth,
Your calm before the storm comment just opened my eyes. Just as I’d relax…he’d create some storm. Then twist it and before I knew what happened I’d be blaming myself and apologizing for something that he created in the first place.
This is how it finally ended too. I had just let down my guard, he was supposed to be moving, things had been going “smoothly” and I finally decided maybe this time things would really be great. When he told me he wasn’t moving in, he tried to blame it on me for pressuring him (which I hadn’t) and then when he realized that excuse didn’t hold up he said he was still in love with some other woman, yadda yadda yadda. He’d always do that, just give one excuse after another until one of them would work. I guess if his logic was if you throw enough crap on the wall some of it is bound to stick.
Looking back what really gets me angry is how honest he was. He would tell me exactly what he was up to, but in a way that was funny and sarcastic. Here’s something that is way too personal and really makes me feel like a dumba$$. About 3 weeks before NC, he had a scratch on his side. I joked and said “what’s her name?” and he told me a branch had scratched him. I bought it. Then, (within a day or so) I wanted to have sex, and he told me he couldn’t because he was too sore. He had been staying at my house while I was at work and he doesnt have a car so I didn’t even think the obvious reason that he would be “sore.” I told him well, what were you doing all day? And he said “there was nothing else to do” insinuating that he had been “taking care of himself” and I took this at face value. When he told me he wasn’t moving in a couple weeks later I asked about the scratches again and he admitted sleeping with this woman (who presumably he is with now). Anyway—I must be retarded. Also, before I moved to TX to be with him, I asked him if he had moved on and had a new girlfriend, and he told me “I have lot’s of girlfriends” but made it like a joke…I should have listened.
This post is all over the place…I am just so angry still, but happy that I’m finally seeing the light, but sad that I was in love with an jerk, still sort of wishing he’d change and love me, but I know that will NEVER happen. It’s comforting and frightening at the same time to know that there are so many other S clones out there. Comforting bc at least I’m not crazy/alone and frightening bc…well you know.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 8:46pm
Done says:
JustAboutHealed,
It’s ironic that your S gave you that book, that so perfectly described him. And you can count me as one of those who just wanted the S to love me, and thought that if I could just fix that poor wounded boy inside of him maybe someday he’d be able to. PUKE.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 8:53pm
James says:
This new perspective and deeper understanding concerning boredom also explain so much about how my ex s/p wanted to start a verbal disagreement with my children and/or myself.
She just wasn’t happy unless there was some type of stress havoc or emotional turmoil going on in the family. How many times I would plea that she just let it go, give it a rest for awhile to no prevail. Now that I think about it was this a way to levitate this boredom she was experiencing? If so, then it makes so much sense why this would happen in cycles. We all (my children and I) would get some type of peace for awhile only to have some minor incident to “bring down the house” and many times over something so insignificant. Another thing is how she was always on the go and never once did I witness her just relaxing by reading a book or something. OMG, what am I saying I never once saw her read any book cover to cover in 17 years. What readers might find so surprising is how my children and I are avid book readers and love to read but never her unless it was a book that she was reading once again on some home study course that I knew she would never complete. I often asked her why she would start a home study course and never finish it? Her reply “I didn’t have the money for the next session“, hinting that I might pay for it. Something I refused to do. I learned in the latter years not to invest in her new projects and knowing full well how she never finished anything she would start.
I now see how all this play into her distaste of being bored. I wonder just how bad it gets for them? Does it feel like bugs crawling under their skin?
I wonder?
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 8:54pm
Done says:
James,
I hope it feels like bugs under their skin. I hope it feels like all the pain they put us through. Maybe this is why NC is so successful, they get bored when they aren’t allowed to meddle and move on to someone new to play with?
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:00pm
James says:
“I guess if his logic was if you throw enough crap on the wall some of it is bound to stick.”
Done, LMFAO!!! How true!!!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:01pm
James says:
Done,
“I hope it feels like bugs under their skin.”
LOL, we can only hope
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:12pm
learnthelesson says:
Done said
“Maybe this is why NC is so successful, they get bored when they aren’t allowed to meddle and move on to someone new to play with?”
BINGO! And we start to find a way out of the dark hole that led us into! My girlfriend from overseas arrived last week – she comes every summer – and she said to me “How do I say this… ummm…. you seem so much more at peace and you look better than you did last year”…
I barely remember her visit from last summer — I was entrenched in S/P/N drama/trauma…texts and phone calls and crazymaking … for the first time in a year I actually realized life is okay and life is going to be okay without him. He is/was a bad person in my life. Thats it in a nutshell. His life is his own to destroy. My life is my own to live and grow and learn with OTHERS. He can no longer bring me down because I choose to let go and move on with my life. While sadly he will continue to fill his boredom and toxic ways with unsuspecting souls in his life. As he taught me to be more consciously aware of my self-protection and respect and my choice to be DONE with S/P/N’s in my life too!!! Your post was spot on about NC and what it means for THEM!!
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:19pm
Done says:
Learn,
Glad to hear that you’re doing much better this year =) My mom recently told me that her and my sister could always tell when I was speaking with my S because I got “mean.” I also used to fall out of contact with my real loved ones bc I’d get so wrapped up in the drama. I also get fat whenever I’m around the S. Too bad your friend (and my family) didn’t tell us that we looked like crap and weren’t at peace when we were in the thick of it, instead of just saying how much better we are now. I think ‘why didn’t you tell me??’ I guess I wouldn’t have listened anyway…
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 9:57pm
justabouthealed says:
Done….the S I knew would do that too….change excuses. On the last phone call it was him changing his excuse several times right away and even saying (thinking out loud) “Oh, so you think I owe you that…Oh, I know! I never WAS cruel to you”which was about the third attempt to defend himself with some excuse or explanation. It was so blatant that he was changing his story, I think he must have been drinking because he was sharing his thought process and it made me so sick that I felt like a jolt of electricity had hit me. I dropped the phone and then hung up on him. That was the last time we ever talked. And he immediately changed his yahoo name to some initials that stood for an insult to me, and I now think all his yahoo aliases are his notches in his belt. I’m so proud of myself because I finally have stopped doing searches on him, all that crap, and I keep picturing all my memories of him in a locked file cabinet with chains all around it, any time I start to think of him. Silly, but it helps.
Sometimes I’m embarrassed to keep posting as JAH, because in some posts I’m SO SURE I’m way past all this, then something makes me slip back a few steps.
My one friend says when you are down in a hole and people keep throwing dirt at you, just pound it down to make the hole a little less deep, and pretty soon you’ll be able to climb out.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:08pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Hi guys;
I wanted to comment about the chaos and drama S’s bring with them. For years, I went along with it. It was like It was ‘normal’ and I never remember thinking anything different. I spent some time in someone’s home, substantial amounts of time. I worked for this family. I was like a fly on their wall…..I had an office in the home. I saw how they lived, I took notice. It was only then that I wished I didn’t have so much chaos going on……I still didn’t attribut it to the S. I noticed wherever he went, whatever conversations he had, S was always instigating shit. I didn’t understand it. I started looking at other peoples lives and how they interacted. If they disagread they didn’t yell, they calmly went about life. Other families didn’t belittle each other, they didn’t go around angry. If there was an issue, they could ‘agree to disagree’……all of this was foreign in my home!!! I wanted calm, I wanted THAT!!! This was one facet to my healing……little did I know the road I was about to travel down!!!!
I tried to smooth out the roughs at home with the kids and S…..things calmed down with the kids, but the S would escalate the drama. THEN, I noticed that if anyone from HIS family was in touch with him….the ‘beatings’ on me would occur. It didn’t matter what ‘we’ had going on at the time….things could have been super, but he wasn’t happy with that and he would start shit through his family or other means. He would say…..they don’t like you, your the cause of this or that,….blah, blah…..I was always so blown over and would say, well i hope you put them straight, then he would turn it on one of his brothers wives. It was the ’splitting’ in full force! He would rile my feathers, rile them, and then sit back and watch my reaction and feed me. When his mother came on the scene…..same thing….he used to speak so horrid of her……then be best friends with her, then speak horrid, and I would hear him on the phone with his siblings who were close with her, trying to split them off. Then he would go to the Grandmother (his mothers mother)….and start shit. She so thought he was the ‘golden boy’.
GOD…it was constant…..if it wasn’t his family, it would be some long lost grudge he held onto, or he would start a new one with someone new, then he would start into me and then the kids….I would watch him do it to clients and their siblings or kids. He always had to be the ‘king’, placing himself right smack inbetween everyone. He would do things in business that blew my mind…..He said he was making himself indisposable. He would go so far out of his way, without charging clients…..I would give him crap because he certainly didn’t go out of his way for his family? It was a guise/and act….I would tell him that if me and the kids paid him then that was the only way we could get time as a family. He played the goodguy act of …..well, your just not happy, I’m working so hard to support you! Most of what he did, wasn’t billable…..just the schmooze for himself!!! Fed his own ego!!!
I used to tell him, dang…..you can never have peace can you?
I would also tell him,…..you live as an island in this world.
He always had a current ‘hate’ object.
I don’t pity him, I dont even feel sorry for the people around him…..it’s their choice…..you’ll seeeeeeeee!!!
I am only grateful that I SEE IT! MY kids see it!!!! AND WE DON”T HAVE TO LIVE THE LIFE SUCKING DRAMA!!! I too have a peace about me……it’s wonderful!!!
I am certain this is why I got soooo sick, when I finally got him out!!! I gave too much, too many years and I sure paid for it……but I get a refund of sorts in the divorce!!! hehe!!!!
Court tomorrow……extension of the Harassment/Stalking order. Prepped up and ready to go! Don’t think he will be there, if not, I will know he’s given up. Part of me thinks he will though…..because he is stupid and has no idea how he presents himself. I guess I will find out tomorrow! Not worried.
The DA’s office is moving forward with the warrant also! Think he has moved states again. But that’s okay…..still in the know!
When you harass me and my kids…….YOU CAN RUN, BUT YOU CAN”T HIDE!!!!! If you don’t believe me…..keep going asshole!
Things are looking up, been very busy getting things to some sort of normalcy.
My therapist says I need a break…..no time for that! We had a great session yesterday…..we laughed…..she asked me if she has been able to teach me anything……I got cocky and said, HEY don’t take my credit away!!!! She said…oh yeah, you must be pulling from your inner sociopath! I said, it’s NOT YOU, it’s me!!!! I find if I can’t joke about it and make light of the S and my past few years…..I would be crying! (Not that crying is so bad either!!!!)
I have to get my ‘affairs’ back in managable order.
LIFE IS GOOD!!!!
Strength to the team at LF!!!
XXOO
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:48pm
Morgan says:
Great article!
I think the psychopath has to be a miserable human being. I cannot imagine trying to avoid my inner world through any means of distraction and at any cost to another person. The psychopath may think he is the victor–but actually I think people who can feel come through the world in a much better place.
The Ps I’ve encountered did cause much devastation in my life. Fortunately, I’ve learned from those difficult lessons. My life is good. For the Ps…life isn’t so good because they can’t even know happiness.
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Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 11:04pm
eyeswideshut says:
Erin, Good for you and good luck at court! Isn’t it nice to turn the tables and relieve his boredom on your terms?? Ha Ha. Crisis, you like crisis? I’ll give you crisis on my terms slimeball.
Mine is all flapping his jaws about how he will win, (despite a really nasty looking file of evidence against him) he will make sure I don’t get a penny blah blah, so what big deal if he forged my name blah blah. Well I have resisted for 18 mos. the uge to go the full monty for the sake of my adult children not having to see their father in jail. But no more.
What he did is a felony. And I have decided to go the distance, as his arrogance knows no boundaries and it will be far cheaper, safer and easier to find his $$ with a little help from the powers that be. For the record, mine is soon to turn 70, and has not mellowed one darn bit.
Keep us posted on your progress, and all my best wishes.
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 7:44am
Escapee says:
Justabout and Done
Just when you think you’re done beating yourself up about one thing, another kicks in eh?
I don’t really think that people are ‘on their high horse’ – they are the fortunate ones who haven’t come up against a S/P/N. Trouble is that the first signs of it rarely appear until they have ‘lulled’ you into their web with all the flattery and attention – which, of course, you are returning because you think you have found love – if we KNEW it was just a mechanism to create an ILLUSION – of course we wouldn’t go for it. As I have said before, they work very hard at creating the right enviornment before they go for the ‘kill’ – the slow debilitating breaking down of someone’s sense of self and sense of what is ‘normal’. The S I was involved in has left me in financial ruin. Not because he actually stole from me but he started very early on manipulating me into paying for things all the time. Later on he just threw bills at me and said ‘you’re paying’ – what was I thinking? Having not been in a relationship for many many years, I just kept thinking, well, times have changed – this was also underpinned later on when he kept refering to our future together and everything would all be in one ‘big pot’ – yeh! I now know whose!
I am on the brink of losing everything I worked for for 25 years. I have been so ill and had to take jobs over the last 2 years or so, earning less money, with the debts that mounted in the four years I was with him, I am practically buried – 5 years ago I had a small mortage on my property (which was covered by investments that would pay out in 2012), no debt whatsoever, owned my own cars and had savings. Now I have £107,000 of debt (that doesn’t include all the savings I went through) – one third of the income I had before I met him and, although my family and friends don’t say, I think I have lost their respect. My two wonderful children have said very little – although both grown and one gone, they know little of the financial cost to me.
My heart breaks everyday to think that I worked hard and juggled all those years to bring up my kids alone – working two jobs so I could have space to be there for them and enjoy their childhoods – what kept me going was the knowledge that I was taking care of my responsibilities to my family and enjoying every moment I could, whilst securing our futures with some financial padding. When I was tired or a bit fed up, I used to think ‘oh well, at least I’ll be able to give them nice weddings etc and help them out with deposits on their own places when the time comes’ – this was a great motivation for me to work hard – it defined who I am (was). I had it all nailed down and was happy – not smug – just happy and secure – normal………….
Then along came my worst nightmare of a human being presenting as a gift from heaven!
Now I feel too ashamed to admit to anyone the difficulites I am in – that I have compromised my future – the thought of my children knowing what an absolute 22 carat idiot I have been after all those years of constancy.
I work hard at trying to put this all behind me – everyday – but all his words ring in my ears – when I had to take on a more pressured job than I would have liked because the debts were mounting “are you a little more ambitious now darling” – with that smirking, digusting look on his face – these are the things that I can’t get out of my head – on calm days I let them roll over me, but then they flood back in and I want to …… no I won’t go there – you’ll know anyway – all about the revenge fantasies……… the wishing of the slow painful death! But it seems that it is me who is having the slow painful death…………
He has affairs all over the place and even with the owner and another employee of a shop I used regularly – I drive miles to avoid seeing his car parked outside – it’s unbearable. He finally admitted to his involvement with one of the women (at first saying they were ‘just friendly’ but then admitting he’d been seeing her for months – I told him ‘good, well you are free to go an marry her instead now’ – his response was – in that arrogant – I’m such a prize – tone “well, that’s what she might want but she’s not gonna get it!’ He even bedded his ex-sister-in-law (that he alway purported to hate) – she trashed his car when he dropped her (he covered this up at the time saying it was his son’s psycho girlfriend – who actually was a really nice kid but locked into to a similar scenario with the crazy son (chip off the old block – I saw him in action – same deal – picking fights and then going off with someone else then pursuing the girlfriend, all in a matter of days – then repeating the same thing again weeks or months later).
I just feel like running away and starting over somewhere new. I am lucky, I have a few good friends that I can tell some things to but they just say ‘lucky escape’ (they are right of course) but does anyone understand the pain of finding out the person you invested everything in and believed loved you could turn out to be so evil and cruel?
Sorry for ranting folks – it’s a bad day today – can’t stop crying, feel hopeless wreck – feel like such a prat………..
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 7:56am
James says:
Escapee
Thanks so much for sharing. Whenever I read any stories like your I think how I got off lucky and need to stop feeling sorry for myself. Really it’s not what she did to me that hurts at times but what she did to our children and her other two children who are now adults themselves. I thank God each day for God allowing me keep them with me and how they want no part of her. But to lose so much money! How does one deal with that?
I told my friend what they do to us is like throwing a pebble in a pond and how it has a Whipper effect. How what they do not only effects us but touches so many other people who are involved in our lives. I pray and hope this pain ends soon for you.
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 12:56pm
JaneSmith says:
Escapee,
Sweetheart, I have felt exactly as you feel now. Like I’m the dumbest woman that ever walked the Earth. Like Kathleen’s friend who said..”I’m too stupid to live”..
I would like to remind you of how truly intelligent you are. You are an incredibly smart, capable, responsible, dedicated and loving mother/woman.
You were masterfully seduced by a predator. You have read many of the LF articles, I’m sure. You’re aware now of how they operate. Psychopaths spend oodles of time sizing you up, cunningly listening to every thing you say, seeking out those vulnerable spots for future exploitation.
Any person who is kind, loving, good and decent is susceptible to the predation of psychopaths. ALL of us have been fooled, deceived, mistreated and thrown away like yesterday’s garbage by these creatures.
Remember that, okay? You are among people who are so similar in personality and character, good and worthy intentions, with no alterior motives but to be loved and cared for by their partner.
Please don’t beat yourself up, doll. Beat him up for doing this shit to you! In your head or on LF where it will be beneficial for you and will help in healing.
Hey, I read that even Dr. Robert Hare, one of the foremost psychologists in the field of psychopathy (been studying them for well over 30 years) has been conned on and off by them over the years. And he’s an expert! Well, dagnabit, so are we!
We all have been in the trenches, then been in battle with these freaks of nature, then raised our arms in victory when they finally skip town, or they move on to the next innocent victim who had the misforture to be attractive to the psychopath, or we kick their slimy butts to the curb!
If you no longer are being victimized by a psychopath, if he/she has lost interest and has disappeared…then you are a big time winner. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 4:07pm
holywatersalt says:
Great article Steve- the boredom point is HUGE. Thanks for brining it up- I think this point gets passed/glossed over.
I recall the psycho I knew- astounded by the idea I would not agree with him, because what he wanted to do would hurt others. It was a moment when the mask dropped– he was incredulous, and irritated….he was like a teenager just pissed off I could not agree with his plans. He even mimicked me sounding like a “goody two shoes”….he just didn’t care about anyone but himself, ever.
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 5:12pm
Escapee says:
james/jane smith
Thanks for your comforting comments.
I hate being on this pity pot – it’s so paralysing – it makes me feel so weak…….. all those years struggling on my own with the kids – at least I had a purpose – a goal…… he took all that away.
It’s like being crippled. Well….. that’s another story because I have now been diagnosed with Osteoporis in my spine. funny I was Miss Fit when Imet him Huh? (All of my keep fit activities stopped while I was with him in those 4 years – too busy attending to his needs and demands) 6 months prior to kicking this idiot out of my life for ever (he still kept hounding me with texts, visits to my house etc… despite I knew (and he knew I knew) about the other women/prostitutes), I told him my diagnosis and he said ‘YOU HAVEN’T GOT OSTEOPOROSIS’ – the nastiness and putting me at a distance increased even more after this.
Today has been particularly bad – the worst in many months – I feel so weak and pathetic – I wish he was dead. It’s not even anger – I just would like to inhabit this planet knowing I won’t ever have to see his smug ugly face again or his stupid car with his narcissistic personal number plate all over the place .
His life is fine with all his satellite women and god knows who as his’stable relationship’ (poor unwitting fool – I just hope whe cottons on sooner than I did to his manipulations). He has money and security while my life is in tatters . He did the same thing to his ex wife. He blamed every issue in his marriage on her ‘weight’ – ‘if she respected me she wouldn’t have let herself go’ – she had a disabled child for god’s sake – I don’t think that being a size 6 was her first priority. Prat.
Anyway, like he was Brad Pitt? Balding, prematurely aged, pot bellied – should have known from the fixation on the old phalic symbols – Ferraris, big meaty cars etc – he made me pay for a ski holiday and then 2 weeks later went out and spent £70,000 on a Ferrari – what a fool! Why didn’t I tell him to sit on it and swivvel?
How do I get rid of all this ‘Hate’?
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 6:08pm
JaneSmith says:
Escapee,
Why would you want to get rid of all the hate? He deserves it, doesn’t he? The only reason I would say not to direct all your energy towards him is because it is soo draining. And in a way, useless once you realize he doesn’t give a damn about you or anyone else, for that matter. Only for whatever his primitive, selfish savage needs can be temporarily sated by what you generously offer.
If it helps, I hate him for you. But I can hate, loathe, detest these predators without it affecting my own sanity and serenity. More like a hate that I keep on the back burner, slowly simmering yet not completely turned off. It is what it is and where I’m at personally in my healing.
I do know how much you are hurting. I wish I could take it away from you and fling it into the stratosphere just so you can have a little peace for yourself. I can’t but I can empathize and try to offer you what little comfort, support and encouragement I have.
You know that old adage…”time heals all wounds”. Well, it doesn’t, not all wounds, but time does soften the damage, does help us to visualize that bright light at the end of that dark, miserable, suffocating tunnel.
Just be true to who you are and allow yourself to feel whatever emotion moves inside of you. Hope I don’t sound condescending, or superior because I’m not. At all. I only speak from my own personal history with predators.
Peace to you, friend..
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 6:58pm
Tilly says:
I have just ventured out from my self-poisoning toxic fumes unit. I do not do “sick” well. However, I just emailed my psychopathic daughter an email telling her I will take her to court if she doesn’t pay some of my money back and that she is only to contact me through a solicitor. I also named someone her psychopath father murdered. And told her I had been to the police four times to tell them and that Ican’t wait until he is behind bars.
Have I lost the plot? Or, to put it in his words as he once said to me, “You must have a death wish”.
Funny thing is, I feel much better having threatened them with legal action and told them I have been to the police lots of times. I reminded her that if I die, (by “accident”) then the police will know its her father or (and I named the other person), and so will my youngest son.
Yes I have been a hermit since I did this, knowing their won’t be a response…yet. But still terrified.
Why did I do it?
Because I couldn’t leave it alone. I HAD to explain to her that the game was up. ( I said those words, “the game is up”). I did what Matt said and “treated the psychopath by being a psychopath”. I sent her a version of that letter I copied of Oxy’s.( ie. “you are a pathetic, disgusting evil, excuse for a human being and I am glad to be rid of you”) .So, yes, I have been very busy. And I have realised how toxic it is for me to see my psychopath parents. The combination of seeing them and talking to my P brother on the phone and my P daughter coming home was too much. It made me physically sick. I was surrounded by P’s literally (including the rats and roaches), I eliminated from my circle of friends a “close friend” who I have realised was a liar. I have been isolating and I have needed it. I am clearing out the rubbish and the garbage from my life. Nothing has replaced it yet so it is pretty scarey. Especially since the worst psychopath in the world (my ex husband) now knows I have given him up. For everything. He didn’t know before. And he will tell another P woman, who it affects.
I couldn’t keep living the lie any longer. It was doing my head in. I am changing my Will next week so that my youngest son gets the lot. (All of nothing! lol). I don’t care anymore why my middle son doesn’t want anything to do with me. I can’t fix it and everytime I speak to him it is like a knife through my heart because I can’t reach him and he tries to end the convewrsation as fast as anything and get away from me. And my daughter is dead to me. I told her so. I told her to” F#K off and die”. And I don’t feel guilty or afraid of her anymore.
( I feel afraid of her father). I am not going near my P parents or any more cluster Bs for at least two weeks. I am taking time off work and uni has finished for the semester. I am still nauseaus with throbbing headaches and congestion and chest pain.
But I can feel that I am changing in a profound way. All this LF work is purging me of the past and making me knew. I was already strong. Now I am more powerful (emotionally) than I have ever been. My body has yet to catch up. I am not afraid of being afraid, if you know what I mean. “BRING IT ON!” I am yelling to the universe.
My boomerang is in my back pocket and if a cluster B walks within cooee of me for the next two weeks I will whip offf their heads in one swift whhhooosshh!
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 8:47pm
justabouthealed says:
Welcome back Tilly, it is wonderful to see you back! You will just keep getting stronger and stronger!
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 9:15pm
OxDrover says:
YEA!!!! TILLY!!!!!
You swinig that Boomerang, I’m right behind you, riding on Fat Ass and swining my skillet! BOINK and WHIZZZZ to them all!@!!!!
Tilly, seriously, I know it is a daunting task when you WEED OUT YOUR GARDEN OF LIFE and toss out all the junk that has grown there, it makes your little veggies look lost in a big empty space, but you know, until those WEEDS quit sucking out all the moisture and food out of the soil, your spirit, your YOU can’t grow!
That empty space will fill up with a newer and brighter and bigger and more wonderful YOU!!!! Stay away from those weeds!!!! It doesn’t matter WHO they are or wht the blood relationship is, they will suck the soil of your garden dry and sterile.
I’m with you Chickie, I won’t live in terror, all the can do is kill me and I’m going to go down fighting, and living my life to the hilt!
You are special, Tilly, you have seen the “face” of God, and belive me when I tell you, HE IS THERE, HE IS REAL, and you hang on when things get tough! You are a wonderful and strong woman, and when you come to see me, we will saddle up the old asses, and ride the range, swinging our boomerang and our skillet! ((((hugs)))) and all my prayers for you!!!
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 10:37pm
witsend says:
Tilly.
It is good to hear from you…Glad to hear that you are ok. Sounds like you have a lot going on and it is good to hear that you are feeling emotionally strong to deal with it.
Just make sure to take care of yourself until you feel better physically. AND stay safe. You know the P’s in your life and what they are all about so just remember to watch your back, especially when your body has not yet “caught up” to feeling at its best.
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Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 10:39pm
Escapee says:
JaneSmith
Not superior of condescending at all. Your post helped me alot – at least I don’t feel so alone, knowing that someone else can empathize with where I am at. I think if I told my friends the details (as I have laid out here), they would look and sound understanding but would secretly think – what an idiot! Why not, that’s how I feel about myself………….
The reason I want rid of the hate is because I have NEVER been like this about anything in my life. It’s eating me alive and it’s like a Catch 22 – the more it eats at me the more the self-loathing I feel for letting it. I want to heal and recently I have felt I have made progress but then I slip back. (The S used to say, ‘you’re too nice’ – I’m not anymore – nice people don’t fantasise about torturing someone slowly with … no I can’t – it just makes me hate myself more!) – that someone could drive one to this?
What is so stupid is that even very early on (like 5 months in), we’d been on one of our ‘holidays’ – yeh I ended up paying for everything when we got there – this was my ‘treat’ from him) – I was having reactions to him – I remember thinking ‘when we get back of this holiday, I am ending it’ – I was exhausted with him – he made me bristle – I didn’t know why at the time except, he would suddently turned from Jekyll to Hyde and back again. Why didn’t I get out then? If I had I wouldn’t be in this mess. I did try about 6 months later but everytime, he came after me, persuaded me back, telling me he loved me and couldn’t live without me.
Thanks for hating him for me! Maybe if I can know that, I can let go a bit – I used always to be able to forgive easily – but then I hadn’t come up against one of these half-formed sub-humans before.
Thanks for all the encouragement Jane. I feel as if I have hogged alot of space here and not really contributed much to anyone else – maybe I’ll be able to one day.
Good wishes to you and thanks for your encouragement.
Escapee
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 1:15am
Done says:
Escapee,
Please don’t feel like you’ve hogged w/o contributing. Your posts really hit home with me. You sound so strong in them, esp the first one I was shocked when I got to the end when you said you were crying. It seemed so smart and strong, I had the impression that you were just like “f-it” then for you to say you were upset and crying… I’m sorry that you are feeling that way, but just hearing that you are makes me feel more sane.
Some days I feel “great” where i think I’m finally moving on. Like today, there is no crying. But then, I know just what you mean, when you slip back and feel like the world is crashing in on you.
Thank you so much for sharing!
Right now it is 4am and tonight is the first night since NC that I have gone out. I don’t know anyone in my city yet since I moved not so long ago… I went to a bar and met a nice guy. He was holding my hand, and it was way too intimate for me. That still bugs me, that I don’t even feel comfortable wth someone holding my hand bc I don’t want to let down my guard. This guy invited me to a bar close by, it was the last place I went with my S. I hadn’t been there since, and I had to fight off a lot of ghosts tonight. So, I left that bar and came back to my apartment, where there is another bar where I met another guy, who was about the stupidest human I’ve ever tried to interact with. I just mention that because in the past one of the reasons I would stay with the S is because I never met any good alternatives. The S might be a total a-hole piece of crap, but at least he was entertaining and not a freaking idiot! I HATE dating!
SO that was way off topic… but I’m so glad you shared, because I understand everything you write about from wishing revenge, to hating, to hating yourself for hating. I know we are both very strong people for surviving this, and I agree even tho I said I hated ppl on their high horses you are right, they just haven’t had the misfortune of being victimized by an s/p. It is just nice to share with people who have been through the same. I have good friends that I share much of this with, but I feel the same as you- that while they act sympathetic they are really thinking ‘what a moron.’ I believe that most if not all of us here are pretty intelligent people, but we all got duped. So none of us should be too hard on ourselves.
Tonight is the first night I’ve been out drinking since NC, and I have to pat myself on the back for not drunk-dialing the S especially after going to a place when the last time I was there, the S was feeding me his lies of undying devotion. I feel like tonight I won back a little bit. Next time I go out it won’t be the first since the S. I’m trying to “water down the files” and create new files to replace the old…for anyone who’s read that article about thought control.
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 4:19am
Escapee says:
Done/Jane Smith
Well done! Baby steps – even if you slip backwards, you’ve had a taste of elation and the courage to feel ‘free to walk the earth’. They get you so you’re uncomfortable anywhere that holds the vaguest memory – well I am.
I cried it all out yesterday and feel much better today (it’s mid-morning UK time right now) and I have plans for the day to be with lovely people!
I guess we all have to take what we can from each other when we are feeling strong and be thankful we have somewhere safe to ‘lean’ when we are weak.
Jane – I now have a phrase in your honour – you know in 12 step problems, one of their mantras is ‘Let go and Let God’ – my mother used to quote it at me as she was in Al Anon for years (yeh, had the violent crazy alco father too – maybe that explains alot!) – well I now say “Let go and let Jane Smith” – as you are doing all my hating for me and would appear to have a much more pragmatic and stronger view on it than me! I fully intend to pass this on to any other souls in need of ’spiritual’ comfort but, like me, without any religious convictions – god with so many socios about, you’ll be immortalised across to continents in no time!
Thanks all for cheering me up and I do thank god that I have my two beautiful children around me – don’t know how you’ve coped Oxy, Geminigirl Tilly
Love and thanks to all.
Escapee
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 4:57am
blindsided31 says:
This article and many of the comments so hit home.
After successfully achieving NC for many weeks, the S called me (and I answered) last Friday on the anniversary of a trip that we took last year to a car show- an event that I thought would be an annual event.
However, the devalue and discard came a short six weeks later (On 7/31/08) when he told me he did not love me and dumped me ( but remained in intermittent contact by e-mail and phone).
Apparently, he had become bored with me some months before the discard. It was not until a few months later that I discovered he had been seducing another woman for weeks, but did not dump me until the very day he “scored” with the other woman. Based on the comments on this blog, this is typical, getting bored, having “overlapping” seductions to be sure he would not be alone.
In our recent contact, he insisted that he is “ashamed and embarrassed” by his behavior toward me – but he still insists he doesn’t love me (although I now know he is incapable of loving anyone). He keeps repeating “I didn’t want to hurt you”. I asked him why he called and he basically said he was bored on this long car trip to the car show alone (ha- the new woman didn’t go on the trip- he must be getting bored with her by now too). He also said ” I don’t know why I do what I do”. He didn’t appear to have a clue that his calling me while he was on the trip would hurt me all over again. Said he did not want to get back together with me because he “didn’t want to hurt me again” and he knew he would eventually hurt me again because he doesn’t love me and I love him.
I have a little trouble with the “I don’t want to hurt you again” line- it sounds so magnanimous, so normal- is that his way of trying to sound like a normal person?
This time, I told him not to contact me any more and that I think he “does what he does” because he has no conscience or guilt and is incapable of love – I may have even thrown in the word sociopath.
I cried a lot this week because I still miss him so much- or at least I miss the person I thought I knew before the mask came off.
This time, I hope I will be able to stick to NC- I know it works.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 11:19am
James says:
blindsided31,
So many times I have heard of them being referred to as a “walking contradiction” and it’s true. In fact this is yet another trait/red flag of an s/p.
Because they have this ability to contradiction themselves and sometimes doing so in same sentences we need to be able to filter every word and statement they make not only to us but in other areas as well like employers co-workers members in church and the general public.
“The most telling thing that narcissists do is contradict themselves. They will do this virtually in the same sentence, without even stopping to take a breath. It can be trivial (e.g., about what they want for lunch) or it can be serious (e.g., about whether or not they love you). When you ask them which one they mean, they’ll deny ever saying the first one, though it may literally have been only seconds since they said it — really, how could you think they’d ever have said that? You need to have your head examined! “
http://dslweb.nwnexus.com/jmas.....tml#contra
Many times what they tell us is what I now refer to as the double negative: Like
I love you!
What I mean is that if you are told they love you, that’s the lie because they are able to love or understand love as we understand it.
But when they tell us they love us it’s a mirroring of love. What they see is the love in us not the love they have in themselves.
Now if I takes this simple understanding and use it time and time again I start to see how they display this double negative in themselves so many times.
Let’s try this one okay?
I hate you:
Now what they really hate is what they can’t get from you albeit sex money your time etc. Now I not saying they don’t hate but this hate is displaced and it’s source has a deeper meaning.
Now the mirroring effect is this hate which is in themselves something they don’t want to or can’t acknowledge in them so they project this hate on you and others.
Since they are immaturely unable to burden the emotion hate it’s self they will protect it on other people making them carry this negative emotional burden. Look at it this way, they told you how they hate you and then will hang up on you while talking on the phone.
Now for them they aren’t thinking what they just told you in fact that statement is already gone from their conscience mind. But you are on the other end of the phone now listening to dead air are thinking what did I do to deserve this? Why does he/she treat me like this? etc? You are still dealing with it but he/she isn’t in fact it was a release for them to say that!
I hope this helps you and also that you check out the link above. This one is tailored made for the layman (me) and when researching Personality disorders/NPD. It was one of the first ones I read and still as to date revisit the site many many times.
Good luck on the NC and yes it works.
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 12:36pm
James says:
update:
“What I mean is that if you are told they love you, that’s the lie because they are able to love or understand love as we understand it.”
should be:
What I mean is that if you are told they love you, that’s the lie because they are “unable” to love or understand love as we understand it.
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 1:03pm
Done says:
Blindsided31,
Mine told me he didn’t want to hurt me, too. It does make them seem human when they say these things, but it’s clearly another lie because if they truly didn’t want to hurt you they wouldn’t do things like call you up on the anniversary of a car show. I even laid it out for my S, saying ‘if you don’t want to hurt me, then don’t do x, y, or z.’ Then after he did x, y, z, and the rest of the alphabet he would say “it was never my intention to hurt you.” I told him ‘Uhm…either it was your intention or something is seriously wrong with you.’ A little bit of both I think.
I’m sorry your S called you and got you all upset. I hate him for you (just like Jane above). It’s just so typical that he would call and drudge up memories, then tear you down all over again by telling you he still wasn’t in love with you. Why even bother to do that?! Of course the reason is so that he can keep you there on the back burner, devalue you a little more and chip away at your self worth so that some day if he decides he needs to use you again you’ll be so thrilled that he ‘finally loves you’ and take him back. Except you won’t because you know better now. Anyway-what a jerk! I do reserve some hate for him…God knows I have more than enough to go around lately.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 2:08pm
blindsided31 says:
Done/ James
Thanks Done -your explanation is so succinct and perfect. Right, why did he call me on THAT DAY and say all the old hurtful stuff? and as James said continue to hurt me while saying he didn’t want to hurt me.?
You are right, he is such a jerk. But there is some sort of poetic justice- he is now in major trouble on the job (no doubt due some sleezy thing he did or lie(s) he told)- and he told me in the conversation he is desperately looking for a new job before he is fired.
Yes, I was hurt and did cry this week- but with the help of my friends and the wonderful people on this website, I know I will continue my recovery.
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 2:43pm
James says:
“Since they are immaturely unable to burden the emotion hate it’s self they will protect it on other people ”
typo s/b:
Since they are immaturely unable to burden the emotion hate it’s self they will project it on other people
Really wish I could edit this entries…
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 2:49pm
James says:
blindsided31
I so sorry to hear about crying but tears are something they leave us with. I know I did my share of crying but at least in a way it gave me some kind of release from my own emotional pain. Sometimes I felt a little better after crying, sometimes I didn’t..
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 2:51pm
JaneSmith says:
Escapee,
Aww….you are so sweet! I’m so glad that you are feeling much better than you were yesterday. I’ve been there. The constant shifting from one emotion to the next can be exhausting, but it seems to be the only way to really begin to heal from the trauma and devastation of loving a predator.
We all realize that being involved with these creatures is not anything like being in a relationship with normal people. People who have a functioning conscience and a stellar character just like all of us on LF. Yeah, you may break up but you knew that the other person cared for you, may have even loved you so you’re able to have closure and move on once the heartache subsides.
With predators….oy vey! They are the unwanted gift that just keeps on giving! A gift that is hollow, empty, soulless, diabolical, cruel, and without mercy.
It’s been a whole year since my last involvement with a predator and though I am now indifferent to him, I still have transient feelings of loathing and contempt. He deserves that from me. He was a ruthless, selfish person and he didn’t fit in my ideal of what goodness and decency really is. Overjoyed that he is gone, gone, gone from my life. Truly.
Eventually, darling, you will feel the same way as I do about the ex psycho. Mostly indifference when it is clear to you that he just wasn’t worth a damn, absolutely did not deserve such a beautiful, wonderful woman like you.
But you will never forget the difficult lesson, because the pain and suffering was immense and you do not want to ever go through that mess again, and you will start to visualize a life of peace, joy and love. It will happen if you want it to happen. It’s your choice to be free and tranquil. In due time.
**Hugs to Escapee**
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 5:19pm
henry says:
JaneSmith – I always love your post, you give and give and then give somemore – you are special. STEVE this is a great article – I could go on and on about his boredom issues and how I put my life on hold to keep him intertained and happy, I remember how I felt so f–ng responsible for his every need and desire..And exit routes yes usually every thursday evening when he got paid he would find a reason to start a fight so he could drive off into the nite to do whatever or whoever…. Boredom – I own a home 5 acres and have many hobbies – he would keep his mind occupied with crossword puzzles or internet games while I worked away…..He could never just sit idol and reflect or communicate, he was a weird one for sure…I am sure I was boring to him as he had no interest in anything I did or said, but still I was convinced I was the best thing he had ever trapped…oh hell –why am I still here? – cause I am still learning and he is becoming less and less a part of my life – if these guys were just simple creeps and jerks we could let go and move on but they are Evil and affected us like nothing ever has or will again…peace to every body here on LF
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 5:48pm
kindheart48 says:
Blindsided, i was reading your post and i haven’t been onin weeks as i was without the internet and i can identify completely. After 6 years of loyalty to my s and no sex(impotent ) i was dumped for a biker chick but he tried to keep me as well. They are nauseatingly needy in the sense that they have to have someone all the time hence the overlapping. Mine too years back told a friend of his(now an ex male friend who saw the mask off) that he didn’t want to hurt me as i beleive they know they are hurtful but too insensitive to know why. The new woman has no idea who he really is, she’s bought into the facade just as i did. I go through bouts of loneliness and temptation to fill the void but as time goes by i see more clearly what and who he really is. It’s a hard pill to swallow that i meant nothing and got nothing but grief, nothing positive and nothing even concrete as he was sure to not give me what i wanted which was nothing , even a card in 6 years(he used the withholdingbullshit) . They move on not missing a beat physically and well emotionally we are just replaced as we were just along for the ride so to speak. That is always how i felt, nothing about me mattered, all about him. It’s smashing the ideal that is the hard part. love kindheart
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 5:53pm
ANewLily says:
Henry,
My heart broke for you (and all the rest of us) when you wrote, “…and he is becoming less and less a part of my life – if these guys were just simple creeps and jerks we could let go and move on but they are Evil and affected us like nothing ever has or will again…peace to every body here on LF.”
What I wouldn’t give if I had never met him!! At age 19, I had no idea such “Evil” creeps and jerks existed. Now here I am at 72 (escaped when I was 65) still trying to “let him go” but mainly trying to recover from the TOXIC infection of it all.
Henry, you are a good man. I believe in your continued strength to overcome. My own belief in my own strength today is a little weaker than usual, but I believe that I, too, will overcome. WE ALL WILL with the help, love and support of this LF site, our Source, and native intelligence.
Peace and blessings, Lily
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 6:07pm
henry says:
anewLily – You are so kind…thank you. I am proud of you for taking control of YOUR life and putting your health and well being first. We must take care of ourselves and here we will find that support, understanding and compassion that we need to overcome ….it’s a new Day Lily~~!!!
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 6:24pm
ANewLily says:
Henry! Wow the power of the electronic age. I felt I had just pressed submit and here is your response.
Recently I haven’t put my health FIRST but each day I’m getting better at doing that.
Your “It’s a new DAY” was just what I needed as a pick me up. It IS a new day — even though it is Father’s Day tomorrow and I have such deep regret that I chose such a poor specimen to be my children’s father!
I’m going to concentrate on IT’S A NEW DAY! Thank you!
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 6:30pm
slimone says:
Thanks for the interesting article. All of it rang true. I could pinpoint many moments in my path-experiences where their boredom played its ugly-self out.
Now, for some new titles for future articles about boredom:
1. Bored with Psychopaths
2. The Boring Repitition of Psychopathic Behavior
3. Intense, but Boring: The Life of a Psychopath
4. Bored with Them, Bored Without Them
5. Boring is as Boring Does
6. And You Thought Chimps Were Boring?
Hi Everyone, I am feeling a bit snarky this evening.
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 6:58pm
Aeylah says:
Great article and great posts on this boring take. my favorite is Shabyshiks’ “HE was boring!!!!”
how true! I was bored to death by the same repeated, limmited activities and routines of the S. How could I forget lights out by 7:30 bed time routine if he wasnt getting his way! yet while I constantly tried to find new comon interests and ways to engage him, in his boredum he found entertainment in being cruel, creating abrupt chaos, pain with all his lying, cheating and betrayal!
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 8:09pm
JaneSmith says:
Henry,
I’m no more giving, special than you are, dollface. We are equals in those departments. Kindred spirits. We give what we can to those who need it in their time of sadness and despair. It’s what good people do best!
Slimone,
haha…hilarious and brilliant. I would like to add my own insight on the subject of sociopathic boredom:
You see, these creatures are sooooo boring, so bereft of any intellectual/emotional depth, so lacking of anything interesting or compelling to say, share with us that I…can’t…seem…to…stay…awake…sleepy…so..bored…so…snoozy….zzzzzz
Anyway, I’m all dazzled up in snazzy dress and going to treat myself to some Mex food at a cozy little restaurant. Yes. Alone. Company’s overrated anyway. This way I can focus all my attention on the good eats and gently flirt with the cute servers.
I WILL have fun and hope you folks do something of happy cheer also!
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 8:26pm
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, here’s one for you. Mine was so boring he lives in his garage to not dirty his house as he’s over the top OCD. He washes his dishes from his hotodogs (eats about 3 diff foods all meat) in the basin in the laundry room. Seriously he watches tv in his garage and the highlight of the night is when he gets all the garbage from the day and heads of to whatever dumpster as he rotates them so as not to get caught. To think i put up with that shit for all those years, freezing my ass off at one time when i could see my own breathe in the winter in the garage anything so i wouldn’t be alone. What a life eh , i went through a panopoly of emotions, felt sorry , enabled him, devi l i knew i thought was better than one i didn’t , wish i had that time back. I would have visions when i’d get really pissed of throwing flour all over the place just to drive him insane, not that he wasnt’ already there. BORING, AND i thought my ex husband was boring. I thought in the beginiing i was getting this badboy biker guy and i had been married to a normal but boring banker. Instead he turned out to be the exact opposite to what i thought. His parasitic lifestyle, slang language from the company he keeps, archaic wardrobe , all things that at one time i thought made him eccentric as he likes to be called. Balongnie, he’s the most boring, impotent, repulsive, dim witted, lying, cheating bafoon that i gave way too much credit to. The only person who wouldn’t agree is his Mommy Dearest. I’d like to call and wish him Happy Father’s Day tomorrow but the idiot would think i meant it haha. Doubt his meth addicted and alienated older daughter or younger one who detached over 4 years ago will bother to call either. He won’t reflect much about them only to feel sorry for himself. tHERE, glad i got that all off my chest. love kindheart
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Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 9:42pm
Ntmare says:
Happy Father’s Day to all the dads and all the moms who are more dad then their S’s will ever be. We can’t ever be devalued by those who hold no values.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 6:41am
confused2 says:
Hello there. Kind of down today. Went to a car show yesterday which is what I do in the summer, and was told S was going to them also. He told me he wasn’t going to go to them any more because they were boring etc. Yet another lie I believed. I cried like a baby when I got home. Now do I stop going to car shows to maintain NC with him? Also thinking of hiring an investigation on him to see how much I was lied to. I don’t know if I’m trying to heal or trying to have some kind of preverted contact with him. Any ideas or suggestions out there.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 8:29am
Done says:
Hi Confused,
Sorry about the car show. I’ve never been to one before, is it big enough to go and avoid the S? I bet he just went bc he knew you would be there. Maybe you could budget to go to car shows in a different city, make a little vacation out of it instead of going to the shows where the S will likely be there?
As far as hiring an investigator, I think that is a very BAD idea. Save that money to go on your car show-vacation. I competely understand why you would want to hire someone, my sister and I joke that if we ever quit our day jobs we should be private investigators, bc I got quite good at finding out what my S was up to. I actually considered getting a PI before moving out here to be with my S, so I’m not very far removed from the desire to find out just how much he lied.
I don’t think it would be a good idea, because I don’t think it would help you heal. What good would finding out more lies accomplish? It won’t make you feel better, it will just give you more things to be upset about. You know that old saying, “ignorance is bliss”–there is a LOT of truth to that. I think No Contact includes no private investigations (unless maybe you’re going to court), it also should include no checking the S’s myspace/facebook/twitter, driving by their house, or going places where they will likely be, no matter how great the temptation.
For me that means I have to avoid an entire city of the metroplex I live in. This will reveal just how crazy I had gotten before NC, but I have to pat myself on the back for not going to the S’s apartment to see if his new girl is there. Sometimes I’m tempted to, to see if she is there, if they are happy, or if he moved out (since he was supposed to move in with me maybe he moved in with her). But I haven’t done this, because I know on the drive back home I will be ashamed and a crying wreck. I also made the mistake of checking my S’s Twitter status on a couple of occasions since NC. Both times, it did not ‘help me to heal’ by knowing what he was up to. It instead brought all those awful emotions flooding back.
So what I think would be best for you would be to forget the investigation, just assume you were lied to about EVERYTHING and stay NC. What if you found out some HUGE new lie, anyway? Right now you already have began to deal with all the lies you’re aware of, that new lie would just cause you new PAIN. And it’s irrelevant, you already know he’s a liar. Fire is hot. It will burn you. You don’t need an investigator to tell you exactly how hot it is. If you touch it you might get a 1st degree or maybe a 3rd degree burn, but they would both hurt.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 9:27am
confused2 says:
Yes you are right. Every new lie I find is another blow to my heart. The night before I broke up with him I went to his house and looked inside his window while he was on the computer and he was hooking up with a 20 something girl on a porn site called Rawtube. It is a disgusting site. And then I realized why he couldn’t have sex with me even with the help of Levitra. I guess I need to realize EVERYTHING was a lie and try to move on. I felt such relief when I finally got him out of my life, but I’m still thinking about him and wondering. I try to read and watch tv as much as I can, but I still think about him.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 9:52am
KATYA says:
Confused,
Each person deals with stress in a different way. I did NEED to investigate, found MANY lies, and now have a full Arsenal of memories and discoveries to keep me from loving him, caring about him, or even considering any type of contact. The PI is a great thing. I believe that when we have evidence to our sanity it is ALWAYS a great thing.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 9:57am
confused2 says:
Katya
Yes I am looking to be justified but how much “evidence” do I need??? I’m unsure of my motives here. I am second guessing all my decisions lately. I want to throw something back in his face to let him know I KNOW it was all a lie if or when he tries to get back into my life. The car show thing threw me big time. I can’t believe how shook up I was.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 10:03am
KATYA says:
if you feel that PI would help you get stronger, I say money isn’t the main thing to worry about. This to me is a question of closure. As with any grief, you are likely to go back and forth between stages, and finally close one only to open another. What ever is healing in the process and legal, will only help your cause. That’s my take on it.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 11:04am
Done says:
Confused,
I agree with Katya that people deal with stress in different ways. It sounds like she was able to use the info to make her angrier and add it to her arsenal. Personally, I know that finding out any more lies will hurt even if I try to prepare myself for it. Sure, after the hurting subsides I’d have that info to add, but like you said, how much evidence do you need? If you are questioning your motives, I would at least hold off on the PI until you are sure that you are not just trying to have an excuse to break NC.
I understand wanting to throw something back in his face, but I played that game already for a long time while I was with the S. Always going back because I wanted to win. It’s only now that I’ve decided to cut my losses that I am starting to heal. You don’t need anything to throw back at him when he tries to return. That’s what he expects, you’d be playing his game. You just not talking to him will send the message loud and clear. Think how baffled he’ll be when he comes around and you decide not to give him the time of day.
Even if you are still hurting and thinking about him all of the time, he doesn’t need to know that. (I understand that part too. I think about my stupid S constantly, but it’s getting better…now and then I go a few minutes where I forget him.) By throwing it back in his face the only message he would receive was that you are still hurt and still letting him get to you.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 11:17am
KATYA says:
Done, yes, angry plenty. But Investigating into his past is what helped me stay away from him and not blame myself. In the process, I came upon women who did not know why he left one day and/ or still blamed themselves. I am blame free now, because I realized through the very process of discovery that this creature would have done what he did no matter what. So, Confused, you have more things to be confused about, given Done’s and my comments.
Btw, the nicks you make us for yourselves serve a very temporary purpose. I hope no one plans to stay Confused for a long time or the rest of your life. The name we call ourselves is the idea we identify with.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 11:29am
endthepain says:
I guess..I am feeling some guilt AND sadness today…being Fathers day…my dad passed away a few yrs ago….I wish more than anything my S would have a GREAT relationship with our 3 yr old…however he abandoned him at birth…got to know him a few months ago…took me to court for 2 yrs trying to get out of support…Im missing what isnt..im missing whay i know never will be..Im looking at my 3 yr old today knowing he has no clue what today is…and Im not goiong to have him call him as he hasnt called or anything in weeks..he is busy taking me back to court to get out of support….please tell me somebody…am I wrong for doin g this for trying to protect my son and not acknowledging him today?????
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:18pm
endthepain says:
I felt much stronger a few days ago…but sad today!!!
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:19pm
KATYA says:
NO ONE CAN JUDGE YOU. ONLY GOD. END, I am in the same very boat. My little one called my older kids’ father today and said ‘Happy Father’s Day’. His own father was a pig and a prick and no diagnosis can ever make it right. Instead of getting mental health treatment and trying to have a relationship with his son, he’s gone to court, using girlfriend’s money to file for Joint Custody, when his own daughter said she cannot see him wanting a relationship with any of his children. My job in this life is to be a lion, to protect young cubs. So is yours. we owe it to society to limit these kids’ relationships with their sick dads, so that they will not perceive their fathers as role models. Alienation or not, the kids must grow up to know right from wrong. My ex talked the talk but had no idea of how to walk the walk. He’s too Mentally Ill to be a role model and to be a responsible parent. So, what Father is he?
I went NC with my Biological Father. He was not around when I was growing up. Once he disrespected MY children, he was no longer a part of my life. My step dad is the one who is getting presents today and an outing. I hope a day will come when your little one will have a great father figure in his life…
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:34pm
jillsmith says:
This is a very interesting thread. My ex used to say that life wasn’t worth living if he was bored or if things were predictable. He always had to have a new thrill. He was a rock climber, but even that bored him if he wasn’t climbing in an unsafe way. I stopped climbing because he scared me so much when he was belaying me. I think that’s why he lived out of the United States for so many years and why he says he prefers to live in third world countries. That and after hearing his stories, I think it was easier to have conquests in these third world countries. He justified it by claiming all of the people in those countries were just using him for money and that the women just wanted a green card. That is how he arrogantly go away with hurting so many people. I think it was fun for him.
He could never sit still and just BE. He was bored out of his mind with our baby, for the little bit of time he spent with him. He hated the mundane.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:38pm
endthepain says:
KATYA..thank u soooooo much..you brought tears to my eyes…my lil one isnt even asking about him…which is good….but it still doesnt make it hurt less….He is using his own mother to try and get thru to his son..which is sick to me….and you are right …..disrespect me…fine..but do not disresect my kids…thank u for the reinforcement….xoxoxo
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:47pm
KATYA says:
Jillsmith,
I HOPE my son will grow up to be a surgeon instead of a murderer, a soldier instead of a rapist, a mountain climber instead of a thief. Whatever social norms I can instill in him, I will do so, and will try to recognize his need for stimulation.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:48pm
endthepain says:
by the way,….I agree..same here…bot did he talk the talk..but could never walk the walk…..someone once told me…no dad is better than a bad dad….and I completely agree…I cannot have my son think that what his father does is right!
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:49pm
jillsmith says:
Katya,
I don’t really know what you are saying. My ex-husband has a PhD and is a “mountain climber”. I don’t really think these things are going to keep someone from being a murderer, a rapist or a thief, as my ex-husband is a sociopath who has raped, stolen and tried to kill me while I was pregnant with our son. His PhD doesn’t mean he’s a good person.
I am a good mother who recognized my sons need for stimulation, but I’m also working hard at teaching him to be content in life.
I don’t really get why you addressed this comment to me. I wasn’t commenting based on anything you said. I was simply commenting on my Sociopathic ex-husband’s inability to be bored, which is what this thread is about.
I wish you the best of luck in instilling whatever it is you want to instill in your son. I’m sure you’ll do a great job. I didn’t remember reading any other comments you made on this thread. I’ll go back and read them, so I can make some sense of why you made this comment to me.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 12:59pm
jillsmith says:
Katya,
I just went back and read the thread more closely to figure out why you made this comment to me. I took it to sound like you hope your son gets a PhD and is a rock climber, like my ex-husband. Believe me, you do not want your son to turn out like my ex-husband. Just because my ex-husband has a PhD does NOT make him a good role model for my son or anyone else’s son. Also, as Rune can attest to, rock climbing is much different than just normal hiking in mountains. It’s a very high risk activity with a lot of thrill and stimulation. There are many people with sociopathic personalities in the climbing community.
I just can’t figure out why you made this comment to me. After reading the whole thread more closely, I think you must have thought I was responding to your comment with my first comment. I wasn’t. I was responding with thoughts to the article. I’m sorry if I made you think I was responding to your statements. I really am confused though.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 1:08pm
Escapee says:
JANE SMITH
Read your last post – so supportive and kind. Thank you.
You are right about ‘normal’ relationships. I had a boyfriend many years ago , before, the S, it only lasted 6 months – his wife had left him because she ‘decided’ she was a lesbian, only to change her mind once he got involved elsewhere many many months after she’d dumped him (funny it was when he started ‘dating’ someone else – oh! that old chestnut that Ss use to control – tugging on the rein). He was a smart guy and refused to be drawn back. Anyway, I had a very sweet time with Julian – he always treated me with the utmost respect and when it became clear that we weren’t long term material, it ended very naturally and with honesty and both sides. I stung for maybe a week or two but had complete acceptance that neither of us had caused the other any damage and am still able to treasure the happy memories of our ‘brief encounter’. Your post reminded me of this when you talked about ‘normal relationships’ – thanks.
Made the decsion that over the weekend, I could do nothing about all the finanaical worries (in the wake of the ‘disaster’ of the S) and spent my time with good friends – had some nice company, some nice food, a little wine and lots of laughter – maybe for ALL OF US – we just have to work on the premis that AT THE MOMENT, we have to embrace the good on offer and ignore the S**t – if only for a short while – it’s certainly lifted my spirits.
CONFUSED
Know where you’re at doll – my S text me on what would have been our 4 year anniversary last year to remind me of the date! Oh, how it all could have been soooo different – he was dating one of his other women and promising her Nivarna (I found out later) – it’s just their pathetic way of trying to keep control. He’d like to think you’re still ‘insurance’ in case the supply dries up elsewhere – pathetic – so transparent – don’t be fooled but don’t be depressed either – you’re in charge. As for ‘Rawtube’ – it’s laughable – take a leaf out of their book – be arrogant – take the moral high ground – gain strength from HIS weakness – he’s scurrying around, trying to dig up company and someone to fulfill his shallow needs on some disgusting porn website (no doubt he’ll find some damaged half-formed human to collude with). Do you need to do this? Look at your friendships/relationships – I am sure you have decent, genuine lovely friends to spend time with – does he? You’re the bigger, better and more evolved person – this has always helped me reconcile things when I have found out about his ‘revolting’ activities.
It’s good days and bad days – and early days for both of us. Don’t feel bad about thinking ‘I’m better than you’ – I am not an advocate of thinking I am better than anyone but I KNOW all of us here of LF are better than this low life scum!
‘Let go and let JANE SMITH’!
Jill Smith
The ‘mundane’ -very telling. They can never embrace the joy of the everyday ‘gifts’ – like one’s babies, family. They are often adrenaline junkies – been around the mountain climbers, bikers, skydivers – for most of us it’s a thrill of something different – I have done these things and they were ‘PART OF’ my life, for a while – something I did to experience – they didn’t define who I was – same for the majority of people – just ‘experiences’ – for the addictive personaliities like Ss, it’s about the ‘look at me’ – that’s what’s really behind it – pathetic………. half-formed – prats!
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 4:25pm
Escapee says:
Endthepain
Disgusting human being! The measure of the man is how he treats his family. Don’t waste your time agonising over this low-life. You’ll never understand him, you’ll never get a satisfactory conclusion. You’re NOT wrong in making a decison based ont he best interests of your child. Why poison his/her life and have it blighted by the dramas of this creep – they just keep going, if you let me. Shut him down is what I say. Every child needs a father (ideally) but no child needs the influence of an S. Stay strong.
Escapee.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 4:38pm
Escapee says:
Sorry – 4th line – ‘if you let them’……. typos!
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 4:39pm
Escapee says:
Done to Confused
I couldn’t have put it better myself! Any chink – they’ll use to their advantage. What they HATE most is to be ignored – that’s your power! Doesn’t matter that you want JUSTICE, doesn’t matter how much you want them to know JUST HOW MUCH THEY’VE HURT YOU, HOW UNFAIR THEY’VE TREATED YOU – it all goes over their head. Any contact – they can’t differentiate between positive and negative – is their opportunity for control. They see ‘communication’ has an OPPORTUNITY to continue to exploit your good nature.
Night folks and thanks for your support.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 4:47pm
endthepain says:
Escapee…thank you…as I have been agonizing about today and not having my 3 tr old call…but again…he is 3..why should I….I felt guilty as I have now drawn the boundaries and its foreign I am still learning…..Plus I have never not acknowledged Fathers day before. I am now taking my son the aquarium and to dinner to enjoy the day/night..without any worry…: )
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 5:16pm
henry says:
Happy Fathers Day to all the good daddies ..why hire a private eye – have we not seen enough – every thing I ever suspected that he did has come back to prove my intuition was right. I had clear evidence on his whoring around and when I proved to him I was right he said “So what – I was a honest guy until you fucked me over” and I believed that lie as well…there is NOTHING you can do to prove a point or get even or make them feel guilty or bad for their behavior Nothing…..~~~~!!! The only weapon we have is NO CONTACT – we take away THEIR power over US when we do not interact with them – and that really lets them know that we know how rotten they are – and when we have that power they become like the snakes they are and slither away if and when they see the powerful people we are – no contact is like a cross to a vampire – no contact is our ultimate salvation…well I fell better …..
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 5:42pm
endthepain says:
henry….I am so sorry for your story..I dont believe I have ever shared personally with you…but you are so rightt and coming here and reading all of this truly reinforces the NC..and taking back your own power..Its hard when you have children..and in the above poosts if you have tread..I have been agonizing today about not having my son call the S father….like I feel guiltyy…but he isnt even seeing him or calling him or paying support…so I feel any acknowledgement on our behalf mine or my sons is not deservable…I bel;ieve ignoring him today serves the message and the purpose that he is NOT a father in any sense of the word
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 5:47pm
James says:
Thanks henry and happy Father’s day to you too.
Been thinking about you and Jim in Indiana (I think that’s right) and hope you both having a good father’s day.
For me, having my two boys 365 day a year is father’s day here everyday.LOL..
Have a good one guys and if I missed anyone sorry! but belated Father’s day to you too.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 8:46pm
KATYA says:
Jill Smith,
Sorry to have confused you. It was not my intention. I was musing on something Fraud said years back. He said that if humans are successful at controlling their aggressive urges, the most aggressive ones choose positions of police, military, mountain climbing, surgeons, etc. I may not remember correctly, but the gist was that Fraud believed all humans to be evil at their core, with very primitive instincts governing their behaviors. If your X were not PhD mountain climber, he may have turned out even worse than he did. Working with the Genetic pool our children are given, I believe it is best to help steer their energies and their love for the thrill into more socially acceptable norms. I was not at all commenting on your post, but instead musing on something I had learned in Psych Courses. Sorry for the confusion
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 10:14pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
JaneSmith, I read the post you wrote to Henry about not being so special. I’m with Henry on this one. I have gone to bed with some phrase you wrote me and went to sleep with a smile on my face. You have a gift for encouragement.
And Henry, you too. Both of you write feedback — to me and everyone else — that I treasure.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 10:24pm
OxDrover says:
Today being “Father’s Day” reminded me of my wonderful step-father who was my “daddy” by choice, vs. my “sperm donor” who gave me his DNA, but not his love, because he didn’t have any.
My “daddy” was there for me, when I was ill, when I was participating in rodeos when I was a kid and he hauled me and my horses all over the state to events. He was there to encourage me to ‘be the best that I could be.” He was proud of my accomplishments and the girl/wioman I was.
He was a mentor to his students (He was a high school teacher) and helped students from poor backgrounds go to college and aspire to ‘be someone” besides a gas station attendent or a wood cutter. He was also a basket ball coach and his teams adored him because he motivated them to be the best that they could be. to succeed when others had failed.
I was thinking today as I drove back from dropping off a friend at the airport about how special he was and how blessed I was to have him in my life. My friend that I dropped off had known my daddy and we had talked about him and his funny, dry sense of humor.
For all you guys here who are fathers, and Henry and James, especially, I salute you!!!! The loving care you give to your children will be passed down in the generations yet unborn!
Daddy I miss you.
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Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 11:30pm
James says:
Thanks OxDrover! Well to bed me go…lol, later all!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 2:51am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
James, Henry, et al…Thanks. Father’s Day weekend was good. My youngest daughter and I helped another daughter move Saturday. By the end of the day Sunday I had heard from all four daughters again.
Life is good. Life is peaceful. Life is funny.
I have much power. It pretty much comes from doing nothing. Over three years out and the smear campaign continues…LOL. My second youngest daughter (24) and her boyfriend are visiting the end of June/beginning of July from 4000 miles away. They are the ones who invited me on their Ireland/Scotland trip in March. My 24-year-old asked to spend one or two nights at my boring place and will “visit” with her mother, the ex-tox…refuses to stay there. Over a week ago, my oldest (37) called, concerned because the youngest (13) told her friends on Facebook she was having “family problems”. A night later, I picked up the youngest, we had dinner, and the “I shouldn’t tell you, but” story rolled out. I am an evil, manipulating, lying genius who has turned my daughters against their mother and instilled them with “hate” for her married boyfriend. My ex-tox wants my 13-year old to talk by phone with an old high-school friend of the ex’s who will explain to my daughter how “persuasive” and bad I am. I haven’t seen or talked to this “old friend” since 2003 and maybe saw her a dozen times over a 25 year marriage to the ex-tox…but I guess she “has my number”. I guess the chaos and drama generator is on overdrive at the ex-tox’s, fueled by my evil machinations….ROTFLMAO!
A belated HAPPY FATHERS DAY…to all the LoveFraud Dads, and to the LF mothers “standing in the gap” for the P fathers who are missing on their day.
Jim (bored and enjoying it)
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:22am
James says:
Hi Jim,
So glad to hear about the first part of your entry. The second part well you have my condolence. Interesting how it take a third party to explain to you daughter something I believe belongs to both your ex tot and you. To me having a third party involve is at best questionable. One thing I learn over the 3 years learning and researching is how they mirror us word for word. What I mean is if you tell someone you “believe” my ex suffer from a PD, they will in turn mirror that and state that you are the one who is a PD. If you state how our ex s/p stole from us they again mirror this and will tell others how we stole from them. Oh well, “mirror mirror on the wall tell me tell me who is the fairest of them all”
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:47am
Jim in Indiana USA says:
James…thanks. Well, as they say, the Truth set me free, and it doesn’t even piss me off anymore. I can laugh…blessed that the “crazy” stuff no longer resides with me. I am off the playing field, just a spectator who gets unsolicited “score reports” once in a while. As far as I can tell, my daughters are OK…sorry they have to deal with it, but there’s nothing I can do about what happens over there on the Dark Side…out of my control. The ex-tox has a new “mirror”…better him than me…LOL. I’m home, living in peace…a safe haven for those I choose to let visit. TOWANDO!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:25am
Escapee says:
Confused
Re the PI. I know exactly where you’re at on this and I gave this some consideration when the full extent of the Ss activities first emerged. The reason being was because I was suspending ‘disbelief’. How could he have done those things? Surely I am creating this out of flimsy evidence? It’s all about wanting it to be irrefutable isn’t it? Because you’ve been lied to and cheated on – gaslighted – without even knowing it – it’s that ‘But he looked me in the eye when said all those loving things, I must be imagining or blowing this out of all proportion’. Part of my disbelief was ‘where did he get the time and energy?’ – but, of course, what you’re overlooking is that they are lying about EVERYTHING – so all those extras hours at work, all those fishing trips – or whatever – the excuses in your particular case – were smokescreens for what was really going on.
Personally, I wouldn’t waste any more time or money in establishing what you already know (your guts told you) – knowing more just increases the pain and adds another wound to somehow be healed. It all takes up so much energy that could be better expended on looking after yourself.
I also think that it feeds the obsessive state that you find yourself in once you’ve been gaslighted by an S/N/P type. It gains even more momentum and makes it even harder to get them out of your head.
Good luck to you in whatever decision you come to and keep sharing here on LF to get clarity – especially when you’ve ’slipped back’.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:29am
confused2 says:
Escapee
Thank you for your imput. I have decided to hold off on the PI thing. I believe I’m obessing about S and the PI is just a perverted way to maintain contact. I’m starting to trust my intuition now. And being able to discuss my feelings on LF has helped enormously. I am now coming to realize EVERYTHING he said was a lie or a manipulation of some sort. I have read previous posts here and have heard the same thing from my S, regarding the length of my hair, the style of jeans I should wear, also “your to nice”. I feel a great sense of relief that he is out of my life and yet I still think about him constantly and that bothers me to no end. Any suggestions on getting him out of my head?? All ideas or thoughts are welcome.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:03am
Escapee says:
Confused
Wish I cold wave a magic wand for you (and myself) – I think that just accepting there’ll be good days and bad ones for a while but it does become so there are more good than bad. Be kind to yourself and stick around your ‘genuine’ friends is probably pretty good advice, from my experience.
Good wishes and keep posting when you need to vent /offer insights – I’ve got a lot from other people on this site in the short time I’ve been here – makes you realise you’re not insane but having ‘normal’ responses to a very abnormal experience – I don’t think any of us are experts but there’s much empathy and wisdom to be found – especially for me when I’m feeling outraged and hurt by the sheer injustice of the on-going consequences of having had the horror of an N/S/P in my life.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:26am
jillsmith says:
Katya,
That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying. I don’t know that my ex-husband is a better person because he happens to have a PhD. The whole time he was getting his PhD, he was sleeping with child prostitutes in Cambodia and was doing a lot of horrible things in this “lawless” country. I think it made things worse. I think each individual situation is different. As for rock climbing, that’s an interest we shared. However, I did it for fun every few weeks. For him, it was an obsession. He had to do it every day and he had to do huge climbs (called big walls) or climb without a rope or with very poor safety precautions. When climbing, you have to be very safe, with very good communication and safety between belayer and climber. He was very unsafe and had no regard for my safety when climbing. That’s what I was trying to explain. I wasn’t saying that being an outdoors person or a hiker is a bad thing. I’m a very avid outdoors enthusiast, but I don’t take big risks with my life when rock climbing. The climbing community has many people who live like my ex-husband, with a lot of risks, in many different countries and just kind of “floating” around. My ex just happened to go to graduate school (it took him 10 years) while he was bumming around climbing in Cambodia. I’m not belittling people with graduate degress. I’m actually starting a graduate program myself. I guess it’s just a trigger of sorts for me because my family wanted me to stay with him when he was abusive. My ex was actually diagnosed by a psychiatrist with Antisocial Personality Disorder. I read his psych file and asked him about it and he admitted it to me, before I even knew what it meant. I tried to tell my family about him, but he had already begun isolating me from them and had already been working with them on his lies. My family has a high tolerance for abuse and pushing things under the rug, so my dad just kept saying, “He can’t be that bad. He had a PhD,” over and over again, like a PhD is a certificate for being a good person who is mentally healthy. Everyone thought he was so great because he had a PhD. He was 35 and was just working for the very first time in his life when we got married, in his post-doc position. He only lasted with a contract there for 1 year, then it’s off to a new place and so on. I don’t think his PhD or anyone’s should hold the kind of weight it does. He just used this and his job as “proof” that he is a good person in court. It’s a sore topic for me. I will encourage my son to get as much education as possible, but graduate degrees no longer hold the same level of intrigue and automatic respect for me that they used to. Someone’s professional life and hobbies can many times say nothing about the person. He likes being professor because he likes to be important and to be an authority figure. He also likes to have all of the girls to choose from and to flirt and date them on the side. He used to get so enraged that not all of his students called him “Dr.______” in his lab because he looked young. He would come home and have temper tantrums about it and throw things around the house and become abusive. He started demanding that I call him “Dr._________”. I feel that his career choice was for no other reason that for power. He used to say how much better he was than everybody because of his career and felt like he was literally “saving the world” with his job. All the time he thought he was helping people in a third world country, he was having sex with their children, who, by the way are forced into prostitution and sold like slaves in Cambodia. I view it as more like a rape than visiting a prostitute when people visit brothels in that country and Thailand. His rock climbing is just one more thing he can do to live life on the edge and have risks and adventures, with little regard to his safety or others. Believe me, I know the intrigue of being in love with a talented rock climber who has a PhD. He seemed perfect. He was extremely good looking and charming too. I thought I was marrying the perfect person that I had been holding out for. So, I understand your logic, but must caution you to not be deceived by someone’s status, education, career or hobbies. They do not define a person and don’t keep someone from being a Sociopath. I don’t think you can get much worse than raping and trying to kill your pregnant wife and then continue to cause her terror for years. I don’t know how you think that he could be worse. I just don’t. I respect your right to disagree, but I think if you knew the whole situation and how incredibly dangerous he is, you might reconsider your views.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 12:15pm
Escapee says:
Jillsmith
My god – how did you survive this one? Hadn’t had prior knowledge your story and horrified by the posting above. How did you come out the other side of that one?
My S was well off, well connected and had a superficial veneer of sophistication (enough to get him introduction to key people in his field) – the mask slipped easily enough once he was out of their company though.
As for all the gung ho action man stuff………… ugh! Know just what you mean. Having fun and challenging yourself was never enough – it was always pushing the boundaries – that ‘winning’ thing and ‘having to be superior’ to everyone else – know what I mean?
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 12:59pm
henry says:
Confused2 I dont know your story but I am sure it is like most of us here. Gettin him out of your mind is not going to happen over nite. I am at one and half years and he still floats around in my mind. It is more of an annoyance than pain or that feeling of loss. I have accepted that the impact he had on my life was huge. So it happened, I can not undo it. Sometimes I focus on the things that I liked about him, the few good things he did. If I focus on the evil I get angry and kinda fall back..At times I can make myself not think of him, kinda like OK change thoughts….I can say it does not hurt anymore – havent cried about it in a long time. I can function again. Laugh, eat, have hopes and dreams again with out him in them. I remember one time I said I was going to stick the water hose in my ears and flush him out of my mind. I am not obsessed with him, I have grown weary of trying to get him out of my mind, so I just let him rest there, like a little cancer that is getting smaller and smaller and maybe someday he will just desovle into nothing…just accept that this happened and it is always going to be a part of your life, but that does not mean we can not move forward or grow stronger — time and no contact – life does go on and that horrible confusion you have will go away – I promise..
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 2:20pm
jillsmith says:
Henry,
Your post was to Confused2, but I’m also dealing with trying get the P out of my mind. This was insightful. I think the camparison to it turning into a little cancer getting smaller and smaller is good. I can’t wait until it starts getting smaller and smaller. Right now, it’s still all-consuming for me and need to get past it, for my son’s sake. Well, and for my sake too.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 2:23pm
jillsmith says:
Escapee,
Good question. I don’t know how I came “out the other side” and I don’t think I’m all that intact. However, I survived it and that’s what matters. Now I’m working on getting past it, but it’s all very recent. I basically have no contact with him or any family or friends (with the exception of two trusted ones)so that no one can slip up and tell him where I am. I’m isolated though and that comes at a heavy emotional price. We have to pay such a price for a physical safety, don’t we?
Ahhh. . .the superficial veneer of sophistication. . .I know that well. Our Ps sound similar. Yes, I do know what you mean. You’re right—it’s all about winning and being superior. Do you find yourself being repulsed by people with huge egos now? I avoid them like the plague now.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 2:30pm
Stargazer says:
Dear Confused2:
I only dated my S for 2 months. It took me several more months and a few consultations with counselors to be convinced of what he was. This is the “bargaining” stage of grieving, when you think “maybe….what if…..”
I wish I could save you the trouble. If I could, I would just say that this is how you know he was a sociopath: You are here. Therefore, he is a sociopath. No one stumbles here by accident.
I am a very bright, mature woman who considers herself a great judge of character. I have nearly a masters in Psychology. And yet he fooled me into thinking he was in love with me. I was totally incredulous when the game-playing and discarding started. I had never seen anything like it. I thought it was because of his head injury that made him a little soft in the head. Turns out even his head injury was a lie. These guys (or women) are masters. The most dangerous deceptions are the totally seamless ones. Sorry you have to be a member of this club.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 3:07pm
Stargazer says:
Just a comment about the original article: I spoke with my S several times on the phone before we met. I remember him telling me how bored he was on several occasions. I remember saying to him: Why don’t you take a walk or something? This type of intense boredom is strange to me. When I’m lucky enough to have lots of free time, I can never find enough things to fill it with. Even just resting and meditating are satisfying. His boredom struck me as odd right away.
I learned after the fact that he COULDN’T go take a walk because he was faking a disability to get out of the army. He was pretending he could not walk without a walker. I realized in retrospect, our 2-month relationship in which he told me he was in love with me and wanted to spend his life with me was just something to kill the boredom for a few months. He then later became obsessed with collecting snakes at an exponential rate, even though he wasn’t even supposed to have reptiles on the army base. It creeped me out.
For anyone here who is new and who is struggling to understand the mind of a sociopath, you will have to learn to wrap your mind around the unthinkable. It’s hard, and in the end, all you may come away with is that they are really really bad people and you need to stay away from them.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 3:15pm
confused2 says:
I guess what I’m having a problem with is that I wanted him desperatly out of my life and now that he is gone I’m still thinking about him nearly every waking moment. I’m obessed with him STILL. If I didn’t have LF to vent and validate my thoughts and feelings I fear that I may have gone back to him. And just six months ago I never gave this person a second thought. It amazes me how he got into my head and twisted around so quickly.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 4:05pm
witsend says:
Stargazer,
I really like the way you put that into words….”You have to learn to wrap your mind around the unthinkable”.
I think you nailed it right on the head.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 4:43pm
henry says:
confused – your reaction is normal – I wanted my X out of my life more than anything – it was hell living with him – all I could think was if I can just get him out I will be ok – BUT I was not prepared for the emotions that came after he left – it was such a huge feeling of loss that did not make sense – why would I want someone back that had threatened to harm me? I think we realize they had us under a twisted spell – it takes time to stop spinning….just know that you are free and peace will come..
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 4:47pm
confused2 says:
I so hope you are right. I realize it’s only been a few weeks and that it takes time. But there are moments that I think if he came back I would actually let him. These moments are brief but I do have them. I have remained NC and for that I am proud of myself. But I do find myself still looking for him. I have all the closure I’m going to get. Yet I still look for some kind of explaination or apology. I remind myself, I’m FREE. And then a sense of relief comes over me. I wish my emotions would stay there, but then I start thinking and remembering etc.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 5:04pm
henry says:
I remember where you are now and I just hung on to lovefraud and read and read. I recommend (Meaning from Madness) by Richard Skerritt…the whole involvement with a S has a Twilight Zone or Encounter of the Worst Kind effect on our minds. You are totally twisted like a pretzel right now, at just a few weeks out. There was not much anybody could say or do for me back then. I went to a therapist and a physciatrist and months and months of rehashing it back and forth. Plus I had OXY there too hold my hand and boink me with her skillit… I feel so sorry for you – there were people that promised me I would be OK – and I am. Changed forever but OK////
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:03pm
jillsmith says:
Confusde2 and henry:
This is exactly how I felt during these past holidays. Out of nowhere, after a year and 1/2 of no contact, BOOM! These feelings came from nowhere. I had no idea that these feelings were even lying dormant in my mind somewhere.
Actually, as I reflect on this, I did have these feelings for a few days after my baby was born. I think it’s because he looked like his father and it seemed like he should be there experiencing it too. I also think I had “the baby blues” that many women get for a couple of weeks after having a baby. They were much too strong from me to ignore over these past holidays though. I got to the point where I just couldn’t stand our baby being away from him. Normally, I couldn’t conceive wanting my baby to be around someone so dangerous, then I became obsessed with the idea that I was robbing both of them of a relationship with each other. I learned the hard way that no dad is better than a bad dad for some extreme cases.
I just hope that feeling of thinking I need him never comes back again. I would never even be able to admit to most people that I ever had these feelings. I was ashamed and it made me feel crazy that I ever still had feelings for someone who wants me dead. I feel a little better to know that other people have gone through this. Thank you for sharing these emotions.
Now, I just need to get better to prevent myself from feeling this way again, or know how to properly deal with these sick feelings if they come back. I guess coming face to face with these emotions and being able to openly admit I had them on this board is a step in the right direction. If I’m actively dealing with these complex emotions, then maybe they won’t sneak up on me “out of nowhere” again. I hope.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:12pm
confused2 says:
I’ve been reading LF everyday, sometimes several times a day. It feels like someone is holding my hand, someone who has been there and made it through the other side so to speak. About an hour ago I was thinking about him and the summer he promised me and now I’m not going to have, and then I realized that it was ALL lies. But I was going to take him on two vacations (all on me of course) and that’s what he is going to miss out on, not to mention all the attention and affection I gave him. Maybe I should stop thinking about what I’m missing and think about what he is missing by lying to me. Is this healthy or am I deluding myself once again. Any thoughts?
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:16pm
James says:
confused2
Interesting but one Dr. suggested whenever we get ants (*Automatic Negative Thoughts) we should divert our thoughts on something else like a hobby or a program on TV if we don’t wish to deal with them at this time. The Dr. also commented how ants lie and they lie a lot so we need to be careful and should at times challenge them. I also believe this can work whenever we start to think about breaking NC and/or thinking “what would happen if he/she walked through that door or called me”. LF can be this diversion and can also help to reconfirm what we already know. That this person is “toxic” for I and anyone he/she comes into contact with. I can understand how LF could for some help to bring one back into the light of reality saving one from the darkness and the pain of the unreality.
*
http://ezinearticles.com/?ANTS.....id=1927693
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:51pm
Done says:
Confused2,
I’m sorry that you are having such a hard time getting him out of your head. I know just what you are going through. I think about my S constantly. I used to think about him so much I thought I had OCD, and it would just exhaust me. I would obsess and obsess until I’d end up calling him or worse. I used to (and still do) pray for all my thoughts about him to just GO AWAY! I was constantly exhausted and drained from thinking about him all of the time.
Then I found this article that really helped me. I didn’t read the article James left above but I think it must be similar. http://www.drjoecarver.com/cli.....emory.html
Anyway, this has helped me to take some control over my thoughts. It’s been about 7 weeks no contact for me now, and I still think about the S WAY WAY WAY more than I would like to. BUT, I have also found myself busy and then realize, ‘wow I didn’t think about him for an hour or two.’ When I do start to think about him I try to put that file away quickly (in the article) and it seems to have helped a lot. I think w/o it I would have broke NC by now. I am hoping it can only get better. Hang in there!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:21pm
Rosa says:
Confused 2:
You broke up with this man 3 weeks? ago? That means your pain is really fresh, and you are still reeling from what this man did to you.
It has been said to infinity, but time really does heal all wounds, so just give yourself plenty of time and space.
It is GREAT that you found this site. That means you know what you are dealing with.
“But there are moments that I think if he came back, I would actually let him.”
This could happen, because you are still really vulnerable and it has only been 3 weeks, and I can tell from your posts that you still think of him romantically. If it happens, DON’T BEAT YOURSELF UP OVER IT!! It happens! It happened to me for years. That’s how some of us have to learn.
But, that is definitely the HARD ROAD. And things will only get worse on this path. That is another thing to remember when dealing with the sociopath: THINGS CAN ALWAYS GET WORSE THAN WHAT THEY ARE. So, don’t ever think things can’t get any worse, because a sociopath will always prove you wrong on that score.
No Contact is the way to go, and the longer you are in it, the less chance you will go back to him, or let him come back to you.
“Yet I still look for some type of explanation or apology.”
It is probably best to give up this notion. You will never get an explanation or apology from this man. You have a better chance of finding the Holy Grail. In fact, the words “I’m sorry” seldom come out of the mouth of a sociopath, UNLESS there is something to be gained.
“I wish my emotions would just stay there, but then I start thinking and remembering, etc.”
Confused, I have not seen my ex-S in YEARS, and I still think about him and remember him, at times. I no longer have any feelings for him, and I know that he will never be in my life again. But, I cannot help but remember him. And, I am pretty sure if I saw him again, my stomach would turn and my blood pressure would spike, etc. He made quite an impression on me, and not in a good way. But, he was a masterful teacher in that he taught me the difference between what is real and what is fake. Now, I know.
He was a fake. The next man, GOD WILLING, will be REAL.
A cubic zirconia looks a lot like a real diamond, but it is still a fake. Do you know what I mean? Only a real diamond can cut through glass. The sociopath is the cubic zirconia of the human race. Looks great on the surface. But, upon further inspection, nothing really there at all.
P.S. Although, I must say that I LOVE my cubic zirconia jewelry, because it is set in 14K gold and no one can tell the difference!
NO OFFENSE cubic zirconia!!
I was just making an analogy to help confused2 deal with the sociopath on a human level.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:22pm
Done says:
Confused,
I also understand about thinking about what you’re “missing out on.” Mine is having his 40th bday on Sunday. I also bought tickets to see U2 in Chicago in September with the S. Now I have the stupid tickets and I’ve been unable to sell them so far. I’m just going to try to keep busy on his b-day and remember that whatever ‘plans’ I had dreamed up my head would have been ruined by some kind of drama anyway. It is annoying how you can grieve for something that never happened and was just an illusion though, isn’t it?
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:27pm
Done says:
Rosa,
LOL I would be offended if I were cubic zirconia being compared to these people. CZ is way better than Ps and Ss (but I still like the analogy).
Thanks for reminding us: “THINGS CAN ALWAYS GET WORSE THAN WHAT THEY ARE. So, don’t ever think things can’t get any worse, because a sociopath will always prove you wrong on that score.”
That is SOOOO TRUE! I always used to think, ‘how could this get any worse?’ and he would ALWAYS come up with some new way to shock me.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:34pm
henry says:
CONFUSED What you are missing is the illusion of love. He was not real – he mirrored you and became what you wanted him to be – like a parrot he said all the right things to keep you hooked – and he had you around his little finger until you caught on to his game and when he knew he could not hide his evilness anymore he moved on to fresh humanity that does not bear the mark of his tortured soul – they do not like what they are and the only way they can escape that is to become someone else – but it’s only temporary – the evilness is always there, they can only pretend to be good for just so long…
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:40pm
Done says:
Whoops hit post by accident…
Just when I thought nothing would surprise me, he’d do something so unthinkable and inexplicable. I hate to admit that part of me was probably addicted to the highs/lows and the drama of it all. I was always so shocked and angry. I was always surprised with his actions. I know that sounds stupid since I should have never been surprised, and I was never really ’surprised’ by his a-holeness, but I was repeatedly shocked by it. The only certainty was that he’d consistently come up with something even more outrageous than he had before.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:41pm
Rosa says:
Done:
I feel like I have just slandered the Cubic Zirconia!!
1000 apologies to Cubic Zirconia!!!!
It is perfectly wonderful and fine to have lots of cubic zirconia in the “jewelry arena”..In fact, I recommend it.
When the psychopath comes at you on the street, pulls a knife on you and demands your jewels, the joke is on him!
Just keep the “cubic zirconia humans” out of your home, checkbook, & bed.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:50pm
confused2 says:
I will read both articles. Yes I realize I was in love with a illusion. He was to good to be true and I even told him so. He must have laughed his butt off with some of my texts and phone calls. Towards the end I started to get the vibe that I was just a game or a distraction to him. That’s when I started to do a little checking up on him. I found out more about him in twelve hours of looking than I did in five months of being with him. Yes I did turn a deaf ear to the “little lies”, I justified everything he did. I told him a few days before I broke off with him, that I was so far from the person I used to be five months ago. And he smirked and said “I really twisted you around”. And he seemed proud of it. My gut instinct told me to get away from this person while I could think somewhat straight. He was, and sadly still is, deep into my head. But at least I don’t have to deal with him and his “issues” any longer. Thank you out there for letting me vent.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:59pm
James says:
Done
U2 ticket! Wow, you should take a friend hate to see them go to waste. Plus I didn’t know U2 had planned a concert in Chicago in September. Well, there is always something going on in this city. One good thing about Chicago. oh, plus the transit (CTA) system that’s okay too. And the lake front, love the view, guess there a lot..LOL..
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:08pm
endthepain says:
I cant even stop crying I am SOOOOO angry with myself…after a few months of NC with the S and his mother …I gave in today out of guilt and spoke to the S’s mom..in regards to our 3 yr old son…….I AM SO ANGRY WITH MYSELF!!! even after explaining that the S has not been in contact with his son for quite sometime and that she had established a relationship with our son from the day he was born…despite the absence of the S…I told her she could talk to my son as long as she didnt mention the s’s name….
what a slap in the face when I actually force my son to call her…as I am trying to be nice…..she doesnt say his name as I asked her not to …but says….so…have you talked to you know who??? hello what the F…..Im so mad..could that be a bigger slap in the face SOOOOOOO condescending….she didnt like that she was on speaker phone either..and cut me off anytime I tried to explain what he was saying..as he is only 3….Im so livid…why couldnt I have just kept NC with her..I dont need this and dont want it….
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:10pm
Done says:
Rosa,
Got it! Real CZ is good on your wallet. Real Diamonds are not. Human Diamonds are good for your soul. Human CZ is not.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:15pm
Done says:
James,
Thing is, I don’t live in Chicago. I live in Dallas but the concert here was sold out. So after the S begged me and promised that if I got tickets he would go with me (actually used the word promise, something he rarely did) I bought the Chicago tix bc my S is from Chicago and always would speak so highly of it. They are actually having 2 shows, one on Sat and one on Sunday. If I find someone interested perhaps I’ll go, but right now I could use the money more than a vacation that will undoubtedly bring up all those “I should be with the S right now” feelings. –I would like to go check out the city though, I’ve only been once and I loved it.
Endthepain,
That is infuriating! Try not to be upset, and just use it as a reminder of why you were in NC in the first place. It sounds to me like you should be NC with the mom as well. Even if she isn’t an S herself, she obviously doesn’t see her son for his true colors. There’s no reason your son should have to deal with her or his father. Just think of it as a little slip, brush yourself off and continue on the NC path. (i know easier said than done)
Feel better! xxx-ooo
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:25pm
James says:
Oh Done, sorry thought you were another one here at LF that lives in Chicago. Well maybe you can sell them on Ebay?
Please tell me your s didn’t come back to Chicago? We got enough of them here in this big city. Chicago itself is a perfect place for an S to hide and there are plenty of Possible victims/sources.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:31pm
endthepain says:
Done..Thanks its so hard…now the S just called and left a message for him…and I cant stand his voice..I even asked my son if he wanted to call back and he said no!! Im so angry as this is just not normal..he creates havoc everywhere…and he thinks he can just come in and out of his life like he dam well pleases!!!IVe been in NC with him as well..everything pertaining to my son has been thru writing….oh…I just cant stand this!!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:33pm
James says:
endthepain
I remember those “phone calls”.. How I hated them. Damn I use to sleep with the phone never knowing what time/date she would call. And each time it was mostly about one thing “her property”. It would upset me and the kids to no end. You think she would ask about the boys? This bugged me so much! Yes, sometimes (a few times) asked about the boy but never knowing the time or date when she did call they were asleep or out with friends. Still when they (boys) were home they refused to talk with her anyway. I felt struck like between a rock and a hard place.
Of course this was 3 years ago and she doesn’t have our phone number today. But boy do I remember those times so I can really feel for you. Whenever children get caught up with this it’s hard as nails to have complete NC..
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:52pm
Done says:
Endthepain,
I’m so sorry and angry for you! It sounds like your son is a smart one, not wanting to call back. I’m sure the mom called and put your S up to phoning you. If I were you I’d just make sure to keep checking the caller id and don’t answer for any of the s-family.
James,
As far as I know Chicago is still free from my S. I think he’s still right here in the Big D, which is not big enough for the both of us. Although he was supposed to move (in with me), I suspect if he moved anywhere it was in with his new girlfriend. If she ever gets enough strength to kick him out I imagine he will move to Palo Alto to live with his father, whom I haven’t met but seems to have very S-like ‘qualities’ as well. So–watch out California!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:55pm
endthepain says:
James..Done…anyone….do I have to respond to his message…my son is 3 and flatly says he doesnt want to call him back….do I need to do anything..tell him…he just calls out of the blue like there is nothing wrong….uuuummm hello…despite the fact u havent called……you havent paid support in 8 months and you are taking me back to court and LYING!!! Im so mad!!!!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 9:59pm
Done says:
End,
My vote is NOWAY! You mentioned all communication is supposed to be in writing anyway (did I read that right?) so I don’t see that any good would come from returning his call. Hit ‘Delete’ and forget about it
What is he taking you to court for? I don’t see how he could win anything when he hasn’t been paying his support. What a worthless human being.
I’m headed to bed soon, so if I don’t get back to you tonight I’ll check tomorrow.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:04pm
endthepain says:
Done..he is taking me back to court to modify his support….UNBELIEVABLE!!! we have no visitation or custody yet!!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:08pm
endthepain says:
and also..not only that I came home to having my gas shut off…and I dont have the money for my electricity bill..so that will be shut off tomorrow….and my son’s school tuition…will bounce this week…but he goes on his merry lil way!!!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:14pm
James says:
endthepain
Well, one has the right to limit calls I would believe? If one received call after call I believe this might be seen (legally) as harassment. I remember once back in 2006 how she called us 3 times (it was the one of the boys birthday) and just let the phone ring and ring. Because J didn’t wish to talk with his mother I just unplugged the phone. I later found out she call my son’s friend and lie to him stating she was driving around town and wonder why no one was answering the phone when in fact she was calling from another state altogether. But I believe you sure be able to (might be better to get this in writing from your lawyer) limit the calls and time of these call. They are having a negative effect on you which is only adding stress upon the already stressful situation you are trying to deal with.
These are my two cents but legally don’t really know.
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:15pm
KATYA says:
End, I am crying right with you. calling these bastards back is useless, I’ve been there. Perhaps, you can tell your attorney this incident and it can further show the court that your son has no real bond with his father and maybe, the visitations will go to your favor. I say Do Not delete the message, simply don’t listen to it. In case he comes back saying that the phone call was about settlement of $$$ or schedule, and you were unresponsive, you can let the court listen to the message, and having told the attorney or another witness that your son did not want to talk to his Dad, you’d be able to share the truth (G-d I hope they will listen)
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:19pm
James says:
“we have no visitation or custody yet!!”
Okay.. then
You should be able to tell him what time to call and to call only once. You have your hands full with the bills school and your child. If he says anything about the law, tell him we talk about that at court. Then say bye.
Your son is still in his “tender” years so this care is a full time job. But don’t expect him to understand this. Yes, endthepain I can understand why you are under so much stress. I wouldn’t answer the phone after a certain hour or time of the day. And limit the calls to only once a day or if you can only twice a week. This might help limit the stress on you.
I so sorry but these people use phones like weapons..
Wish I could help more..
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 10:30pm
endthepain says:
Its just sick when you have the S disappear and abandon his son and then reappear and now I have the S and his Mom on me..its not like they are harrasssing its just that we are set to go back to court and I have tried to be nice and do things by the book …but now I am establishing FIRMLY things are on my terms now! today was a mistake I took about 50 steps back…and I am mad as HELL!!
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 11:06pm
James says:
endthepain
Wish I could be of more help. It’s hard when there is a child involved and as single parent this is something I know too well. Your feeling are justifiable because of all the stress related to your duties of an mother and all you financial burden. Please keep in touch and hope things get better. Also remember to document anything and how you are struggling financially and how important your child support is for your child.
Because the child is still in his tenders years (talk to your lawyer about this) you have a good case to maintain sole custody if that is something you are hoping for. Custody issues can be modified (ask your lawyer about sole custody vs joint custody) at anytime so you might want to ask your lawyer about that as well.
Good luck
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 11:35pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
endthepain,
It’s good that you are mad. One of these days, you’ll look back at today and wonder why you even tried to do him and his mother any favors. There is no evidence that either of them is concerned about you. You don’t owe them any more than that.
If you don’t have an agreement in place, do what your attorney tells you to do. If your attorney isn’t advising you in that kind of detail, do the absolute minimum. Don’t look for ways to be “nice” or “fair.” Look for ways to drop a wall of silence. Don’t talk to him. Don’t share any information at all. This is not just about you going NC. This is about cutting off his ability to learn anything he can use against you, and cutting off any emotional rewards he gets from driving you crazy.
If your son doesn’t want to talk with him, don’t press him. He’s little and he shouldn’t be involved in this grown-up drama any sooner than he has to be. You may not be able to insulate him forever, because the custody agreement may require some contact, but for the moment enjoy your ability to control things on your end. Don’t call back unless you have a reason for yourself. (Though I don’t know what that would be.) If the phone rings, consider it a mosquito and ignore it.
For both your sake, you don’t want to create an atmosphere of fear around that phone. It’s your phone. You control it. You can even unplug it, if he’s bothering you.
All of this is going to bother you a lot less over time. And you will get better at thinking no and saying no, setting down ground rules if it’s necessary to talk with him at all. and making your entire relationship about minimizing contact.
Your experience with his mother was a lesson. Now you know. Again, you owe her as much loyalty as she shows toward you. She gave you a good piece of information about that.
Above all, if you want control over your own life, don’t waffle about it. Just take it. That means don’t call back unless one of you wants to talk with him. If you don’t, don’t.
When you get the custody agreement, follow it to the letter, and not one inch more. This is your life. He is a hindrance, that’s all. A burden to you both. Keep it that burden as light on you as you can, so you can get on with the rest of your life.
Kathy
Kathy
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Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 11:42pm
Escapee says:
JillSmith
Re your last post. I haven’t had to do the physical removal although, a times, I have wishes I coud just up-sticks and move somewhere else so there was no chance of me seeing him but have managed to retrieve all my friendships from before he came along (I allowed him to isolate me from so many people that I had known for years – some just kept their distance because, as they told me later, they ‘couldn’t stand the arrogant little “f*** (sorry) – their words – mine too if I’m honest).
And yes, I am very watchful when I come into contact with new people in ANY situation – I run the other way when I see that arrogant superiority – funny though, I am finding that I don’t seem to run into it very often these days. Maybe once you change your outlook, you give off something that no longer attracts them into your space – all a bit ‘Bhuddist’ – I think but heh ho, whatever works – I’ll adopt any mechanism to keep them away from me!
It’s so awful you feel so isolated. Perhaps, as you get stronger (and you will), you may see opportunities to be with new and decent people – you’ve been very brave in taking the deceision to protect yourself and family from this ‘evil’ Bad Man. Well done – you’ve come further than you think.
All love to you.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 2:59am
Escapee says:
Confused
Would you indulge me and read the following ? I ask you this because I hope it might help you to realise that you have actually been very smart to get yourself out of this horrible relationship before it got any worse (As Rosa said above – don’t underestimate how much worse it can get if you hang around – or words to that effect) – here goes.
I had the S in my life for 4 years. After the 1st year, I tried to break it off with him but he pursued me relentlessly and I caved in – this happened several more times before I finally ‘outed’ all his lies and cheating AND conning. Unfortunately, by the time I did, I had been so weakened that I was almost totally isolated from my loved ones and friends I had known for years. I had gone from having a well paid job, to unable to work and function effectively. He had conned me into paying for holidays, gifts and all sorts of things (even though he was extremely ‘well off’ himself). I had a very small mortage on my home which was covered by investments that would pay it off in 2012. I had not debt and owned outright my car etc etc (no finance).
I am now in £107,000 worth of debt beause of my time with him. Last night I had to swallow my pride and go to my Invesement Club (I’ve been a member for almost 9 years and was investing money so that I could give my adult children finanical hlep when they came to marry/buy properties etc). I had to go before these very kind and lovely people and tell them that I needed to ‘pull’ my share. This had implications for 7 other people. They were so very kind and understanding – no one asked me any awkward questions, they were eager to assist.
I managed to hold it all together at the time but I came home and broke my heart (1) because, everything I had worked for has been totally compromised (2) because I feel I have let my children down (3) Because I was so overwhelmed with the thoughtfulness, understanding and eagerness to help of such ‘decent’ people, that I am still lucky enough to have in my life.
My point to you is this:
If you are tempted to go back/have contact with the S – this is potentially what is waiting for you. Emotional and possibly financial ruin (you said in a previous post both he and his S daughter conned you giving them money) – it would have gained momentum if you had stuck around – I guarantee it.
MAKE yourself get any thoughts about how good he made you feel at times out of your head, because misery was always just around the corner – these people are TRULY EVIL and they not only don’t care about the consequences for the people they con (if they think about it at all), I believe they actually get some gratituitous pleasure in knowing that they have damaged you.
Do whatever it takes Confused and put as many good people and friends around you as you can while you work your way through this – they don’t have to know your every waking thought – but the positive energy of decent folk will assist in your healing – that’s what I learned last night – it restores your faith, not only in the human race, but also in yourself – this morning, instead of dwelling on all the mess I have to try and work through and what that GIT did, I have been thinking – those friends in my investment club were in my life long before he was – so the person I was back then made ‘good choices’ and judged the company she kept very well – I like her – well here’s the rub – SHE IS STILL IN THERE and I intend to keep working on retrieving her – so when you say ‘he twisted you’ – yeh he did. Learn from it – grow from it and DON’T stop believing in your true essence – you got ’side-tracked, blindsided and conned’ – he only ‘wins’ (we all know how they love winning) if you stay introverted and your mind locked on him. Work on freeing yourself. Don’t beat yourself up and don’t look back. You’re smart. You got out early. Well done you. Keep going and keep posting here for strength.
All love
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 3:31am
Escapee says:
Confused/Everyone
Sorry to hog but meant to mention – this helps me:-
I have post-its with little thoughts dotted in various places to encourage me to stay strong and move forwarde (inside cupboard doors etc).
Here’s a couple that help me:-
“When you’re going through hell – keep going!”
“Some people cause happiness wherever they go, others WHENEVER, they go”.
Small things, I know – but they help me along and make me smile (even when I don’t want to).
Love.
“
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 3:40am
Escapee says:
End
In the Uk, the utility companies cannot shut off your supply if you have a ‘minor’ – make some calls and check this out if it’s the same where you are. I know it’s not much help but just in case no one’s suggested it.
I really feel for you dolly – what you’re being put through is horrendous. Do whatever you need to protect yourself and your baby – no 3 year old should ‘have’ to make a decision for themselves about an S – he/she’s only a a ‘teeny’ – their parents are supposed to protect them not subject them to what this S is doing. Be proud that you’re a good mummy and put this little person and yourself before that IDIOT and his interests (you note I don’t say ‘feelings’ because he doesn’t have any).
My thoughts are with you. All love to you darling – I’ll check later in the hope you’ll let us all now how you’re doing (I’m on UK time – so my posts probably look like I’m some kind of insomniac – well yeh – been there too!).
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 3:52am
BabyNyn80 says:
My (ex) SP had been telling me for years that life was boring. Even now he says those same words. I wish I could understand his mind. How can life’s simple pleasures be so awful to him. Yes, life is boring sometimes, but I am still very content in those moments. If I could have just one wish, it would be to be able to go inside his head for just 1 day.
As for Confused comment… a big part of the control comes from the emotional roller coasters they put us on. They keep us hanging on to the rush of when things are good. It’s the circle of abuse. And I used to feed off it like it was the best drug known to man. (Honestly, I still get emotionally caught up even when we don’t speak). It’s a hard road that gets easier every step you take. You just have to realize how much better your life will be once he’s gone. Because then you will have room for that incredible guy that you have been waiting to find.
I am learning how to be content in being single. There are moments I get lonely and cry about my ex, but for the most part I am happy and beginning to relive my life one day at time.
Thank you Steve for your article. Reading it helped me see a little more clearly that it’s not me… it’s him.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 5:49am
James says:
Escapee
Wow. I did the same thing putting up little postes by the home phone reminding me to say and what not to say. One was “give as little information as possible”. These were good reminder whenever I had to talk with her on the phone.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 7:10am
Stargazer says:
Confused,
What you are going through is totally normal. I only dated my S for 2 months, but it took the good part of a year to really kick him out of my head and my heart. Waves of feeling came and went (though less and less frequently) for a long time. There is no substitute for time unfortunately. Three weeks after I went NC with him, he stalked me at a reptile show. He followed me around and stood beside me everywhere I went. I was very stoic, turning my back and ignoring him. I’m very proud of the way I behaved. But I went home and cried my eyes out because I hoped deep down that perhaps it was a sign that he still loved me. Thank God I had the presence of mind to call a counselor and tell her the story. She told me point blank that what he had done was just a power play, and that he was a bad man. I still struggled with NC for several months. I kept thinking of ways to bring him back into my life by proxy.
I know you will be able to relate to this….there was something about him that got under my skin right away. It was as if he was just meant to be my soul mate. This feeling and the type of person I thought he was that was worthy to be my husband. It took about 3 weeks to start feeling it, but then it happened very quickly and I felt powerless after that point to slow it down or stop it. I can still conjure up that feeling if I try, though it no longer has a hold on me like it used to. He did an astounding job of getting me to fall in love with him, and even my friends who met him loved him. They believed he was the man I’d marry.
When I found out the truth I was just shocked and couldn’t believe it. I tried to look for signs that it wasn’t true. I stayed in this bargaining phase for several months. The important thing for you to remember is that your mind will trick you over and over into thinking maybe he really does love you. You will climb the walls wanting to contact him. Don’t do it. The faster you make the decision to go no contact permanently, the quicker your recovery will be.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 7:53am
OxDrover says:
Dear BabyNyn,
you are so right there, being “alone” is OK, in fact, i think that it is only when we get to the point that we are OK ALONE that we are really ready for another relationship because we are NO LONGER “needy” and will settle for anything. I know that was my situation for sure when I hooked up with the psychopath after my husband died. NEEEEEEEDY and I felt like I was drowning and I fell for the first log floating down the river, only it turned out to be an alligator!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 9:24am
James says:
OxDrover,
Just wanted to drop an Hi and good morning to you!!! Have a great day!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 9:35am
OxDrover says:
James, thanks for the howdy! It is supposed to be 99 degrees here today so have already been outside to do things there and am back inside in the AC. A hotter than usual summer it seems, as yesterday we missed the all time record high temp by 1 degree!
In teh winter I can put ON enough clothing to stay warm, but in the summer I can’t take OFF enough to stay cool! LOL
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 9:46am
James says:
Ditto OxDrover, gonna be a hot one here as well. Later and please kept cool during these hot summer months. (((HUGS))
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 9:49am
jules says:
well i guess this article explains the two three and four months of greatness before the boredom and restless ness kicks in for them in new reltionship. eveeryone here seems to say the same thing about this time slot in a relationship with a sp. its boredom for them to enjoy a normal reltionship with a normal person and they start to think there is something better around the corner. also i wish it didnt urk me so much when i hear he is getting on so great with his life. just heard from a mutual friend my ex sp is seeing a new girl all be it a long distance relationship for them. she is young too a school teacher. and he has a new job promotion where he is earning more money and has a higher position . this surprises me as when he was with me he was lazy and un ambitous when it came to career. anyway he has been seeing her two months so still the honey moon period. it just makes me mad to hear he is doing well i guess. mean while im not seeing anyone and struggling with my job and paying high rent to make ends meet. is this normal to feel p…. off when i hear this. i knew something was up when he did not try to contact me for last two months, of course not he had new victim and i know how perfect he will be for her now in the begining. any advice or coments welcome, i am here cause i need to tell someone how i feel right now hope you guys know what i am talking about.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 10:04am
runningaway says:
I was just thinking about this subject – so timely. My SP mother just finished a winter of “I’m so so lonely. It’s so hard to be alone” boo hoo. (My father passed away last August). But it was all about playing a game called “you have to call me – I don’t call you”. Then, she wouldn’t answer the phone!
Now, she’s no longer the grieving widow, now she’s going blind and “no one cares”. She was DX’d w/ macular degeneration and just learned she can’t drive ever again. I don’t think that reality has set in yet. But, last winter, a few friends came to visit her in Florida so she wouldn’t be alone. Now, she talks about that as if it were a pain in the butt. “It was like a motel here and I didn’t have a minute to myself.”
My father did such a good job of either grounding her or hiding things, that I feel like I’m just beginning to see who she really is. And it’s been one “crisis” after another. She actually seemed to enjoy the attention my father’s death brought her. And she also seems happy to be going blind – at least until she really started to not be able to do things like drive. But, again, that reality hasn’t set in yet.
She has the few friends she has left believing that her 3 children have abandoned her. She’s lost all her money, She was blind. – all not true.
So, it is so true that she has to have constant trouble in her life. Why couldn’t she be a happy SP who wants to have wild parties and take us on trips? LOL
Another thing regarding liking to do things secretly – my mother does not like witnesses. She wants to live alone so no one can see what she’s doing or hear her conversations. Because things wouldn’t add up. She tells one person one thing and another something else. So a live-in helper is out.
However, having said that, her “punishments” are no fun unless her victim knows that whatever it is she did was just that. She may have everyone else believing that she forgot to bring the camera to my graduation. But she smiled up at me in private and told me she didn’t want to remember a public school graduation.
Speaking of always needing controversy, there was the time she gifted money to us and I got half. Because she had a reason, it wasn’t clear that it was a punishment. So, she told my sister that she could spend the money anyway she liked (it was supposed to be for our kids’ college funds – I have 1 child, they have 2). When I didn’t engage her on that, she sent me provocative emails to try to anger me. That failed, but she still felt she had something because she took them to my sister’s house and cried that I was abusing her.
This was her excuse for giving me half the money – I was mean to her via emails! (try figuring out that one). Anyway, my sister told her she should have made it even, which got my Dad to finally demand that she give me the other half.
She called to say I was going to get the money but then said she couldn’t find her favorite watch. Did I know where it was? Yes, she gave it to me 5 years before. Well, she wanted it back. I said okay – no engagement. That’s no fun. But my Dad got involved, so she called back to say she just wanted to have it repaired.
All summer I had to listen to the Story of the Valuable, Priceless Watch. I told her, since it meant so much to her that she could keep it. She cried and cried. She loved me so much and wanted me to have it. So, at the end of the summer I got the watch. She’d had it back from the watchmaker for several weeks. But it was only after she gave it to me that she discovered that the gold top (it was an antique like a locket) was missing. Did I remember that it had a top? Yes, I did. But I figured that because she wasn’t the winner in this year-long game, that she’d torn it off hoping I’d be upset.
Boredom? There’s never a dull moment. And to top it all off, we’re having a family reunion this weekend with her sister (who she hates and says is crazy) and my cousins. We didn’t think she’d go. What were we thinking?
I’m so thankful I found this site. It makes me feel so much better to know that I’m not alone or “seeing things”
Thank you all for sharing your stories and listening to mine.
I
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 11:34am
jennifer1011 says:
Boredom? No, ANY inconvenience of ANY KIND. Boredom is
simply an inconvenience to the Sociopath. Heat, Cold, lack of
Money or Attention, the inability at any given moment to have
any given whim or wish satisfied IMMEDIATELY…even the
slightest pang of hunger was more than my S could stand and
he’d fly into a rage if he was not fed in regular intervals, with
food he’d previously approved, prepared exactly as he demanded. I can’t count the number of times he threatened
to divorce me/abandon us if I made the tuna fish wrong or
forgot what time he insisted on having supper that week.
ANY inconvenience of ANY kind.
While it is true that out of
boredom comes the most wicked of crimes against everyone
around them, merely for their own amusement, it is primarily
the INCONVENIENCE of not having, feeling, being, getting, whatever
it was they wanted in that particular moment…and in their minds, SOMEONE will have to pay for that grave injustice.
Its got nothing to do with boredom, because it is impossible
to keep a sociopath, busy, happy, satisfied, or pleased enough
to refrain from hurting, or, more aptly, ‘punishing’ those around
them when they are not getting what they want.
They will punish just as sadistically if they are too hot or cold
or hungry as they will if they are too bored.
Only two emotions remember? Self entitlement and self pity.
When we distill it all down to that essence, it gets an awful lot
easier to put it all in perspective.
The moment I came to terms with the simplicity of this truth,
a whole lot of conversations that had been taking place in my
head were suddenly silenced and in that moment I stopped
wondering entirely, and forever, if any of it was ever my fault.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 12:22pm
Escapee says:
Jules
Just to re-affirm your thinking… the first signs the S I was involved with was an S were around the 4 month mark into the relationship (wish I’d paid heed to my guts). That’s also when he started stinging me for money.
Yes, it’s normal to feel how you do. You feel CHEATED. But you feel cheated out of the ILLUSION he presented to you – the illusion of being with someone loving who you could love back. As I have said before on this site (it’s painful to hear) but you WEREN’T IN IT – only he was. People are in three categories for them 1) Useful 2) Irrelevant 3) in the way.
If you’re ‘useful’ – they’ll use you and tell you anything to keep you fulfilling whatever purpose they have in mind for you. If you’re irrelevant, they’ll ignore you. If you’re in the way, they will be ‘ruthless’ in moving you out of the way.
I think that’s why this 3/4 month thing is so telling. Maybe a human being can only sustain an ILLUSION of being something they are not for a finite period of time – just a thought……….
I felt like you do too at one time on hearing that he was doing so well, new girlfriend etc. But now I couldn’t care less – I just think ’some poor woman will be suffering the same fate as me by now’ – if I knew her and could warn her off in a way not to expose myself to that monster, I would, but I can’t and that’s way to big a risk to take after all I’ve been through. I ain’t inviting the devil back through the door!
He won’t be doing so great, by the way. Remember, they are very clever at ‘bigging’ themselves up to other people – their whole lives are an act – if it is true, it won’t last.
Try to get the focus back on you. Try to put your energy wholly into improving your life and situation. Don’t waste anymore time on this useless slug. I do understand where you are but would you really want to be wherever his latest ’squeeze’ is once the 3/4 month honeymoon is over?
Make yourself the most important person in your head and universe – NOT HIM! Do one thing everyday that reinforces to yourself that you ARE the leading lady in your own life – and view each small triumph as a stepping stone to healing your life.
I hope there’s something in this that can help you ‘box him off’. Keep posting here and telling us how you feel for as long as you need – we all need each other for strength – knowing that others are or have had the same reactions helps us to feel we’re not paranoid mad obsessives!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 12:49pm
ThePeregrine says:
So many comments, and such good ones! It saddens me that so many people are drawn into the vortex of the sociopath.
Yes, I think boredom is an element worth watching for if you are in any way involved with a sociopath. The sociopath’s boredom (fairly obvious to most of us because we have empathy that he/she does not) would be a signal that you may want to move out of harm’s way.
My thinking about this may be prejudiced by the particular type of sociopath I encountered. She was about equal parts narcissistic and histrionic, with enough borderline personality disorder mixed in to make her dangerous. She would have had no qualms about killing me or having me killed, if she could have done so without drawing suspicion on herself.
I understand it this way: The S creates drama not because of boredom, but because he or she has a desperate craving for an audience. You are never “good company” or “a friend” or anything normal to such a person, and you never were. You are merely an audience, or another player on the stage created for their audience, and when you are gone they will find another audience and other players as needed.
And if you’re lucky, they’ll also find another stage.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 12:49pm
Escapee says:
Peregrine
Yeh! Your comments about being an audience really struck a cord with me.
They do want constant attention. I used to say to myself ‘I could take the moon out of the sky and hand it to him on a plate and it wouldn’t be enough’. He once said to me “my mother never gave me enough attention as a child, now I demand it!”. If I ever hear words like that again – I will turn tail and run immediately, slamming the door firmly behind me! I remember thinking “oh, that’s telling” why on earth I ignored my gut instincts and tried to deny my astonishment and dis-ease about it, I’ll never know. If I was reading a book, (like them all, he wasn’t capable of enjoying a quiet pursuit), he would put his hand across it and lower it to my lap and say “give me some attention” – like a little kid who wants mummy’s focus firmly on him – pathetic – I thought so at the time – again, why did I ignore my instincts?
Anyway, today I have reached the ‘couldn’t care less stage’. So long as that slug is out of my orb, I can continue to heal and get stronger.
Jennifer 1011
Liked your insights about how they ‘punish’ when they’re not getting their own way. Also your comments about it not always being about boredom but often about ’self-entitlement’ – In the later stages of the relationship, I would think ‘oh, the little emperor must have what he wants and when he wants’ He would go away on his endless ‘fishing’ trips (punctuated at the beginnig, middle or end with other women/prostitutes – god knows what else) and en route home, call me wanting to come over (usually to be fed) – I used to think ‘why should I be sitting pretty, waiting in the wings to be picked up when you feel like it’ (that was even before I found out about the cheating). He felt he had a right to have every single need met, as required. And being a completely self-obsessed, self-enchanted bully, these were, of course, endless.
Hallelujah – he’s gone and found another stage!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 1:15pm
valerie says:
This essay is so well written and for me has capsuled what I now know about sociopathy. I am a survivor of an overwhelming and exhausting relationship with a sociopath.
While in this relationship I came to think that there was something terribly wrong with me. It appeared to me and to others that I was the one that had poor mental health. They and I were right in many resects. Today with 6 months distance and time away from this very manipulative and distructive individual I can now begin the journey of restoring my creditability and my life.
It took 3.5 years for this sociopath to wear me down emotionally and physically. I became a person I didn’t recognize. I lost my joy, my finances, my time, etc…
Today I find it most odd that when this relationship ended I missed the company of my sociopath terribly. For goodness sake; I was being mentally abused!!!
The lies that had my world turned upside down and inside out came out of my partner’s constant need for stimulation. Stimulation that was acomplished through all the various bullet points that are discribed as symptoms of sociopathic behaviors.
I took the route of warning the newest victims and it was and is impossible for me to funnel down the numerous stories to language anyone could possibly grasp without the education through similiar life experiences. I lost further creditability in my attempts to explain what I knew to be true. The Red Flags and stories one at a time sound trivial and would cast a glaze in the eyes of those listening; the glaze of here we go again and let it go. It is only the day by day layers over a long period of time that bring a clear understanding of the devestation & havoic that occured within my home and within my head. Trying to explain to those I was concerned about, those that only see love and joy and kindness within this sociopath, caused me further pain and prolonged my recovery. It is difficult to not care about what others are thinking or what you know they’ll soon be experiencing.
Don’t give your Sociopath anymore of your time or energy. I grieve most for the time I lost in many areas of my life. The financial expense is seperate. The money is gone.
I’m finally free. This relationship did help me understand past short term encounters within family, work and in other environments where selfish individuals left me feeling taken advantage of or at a loss. I am a better friend to the many people that have had similar experiences. I now understand their language.
I have a new perspective on life and I don’t have to compromise my integrity and values to have loving relationships. I deserve so much more and so much better than what I have given myself permission to have had in my life. I want to be around positive and loving and gracious people.
Today I’m bored and somewhat boring and I’m thankful to be experiencing those exact feelings. I’m still alive and I feel this relationship came a point where my life was part of the risk of being in the company of this sociopath. With mental clarity comes the knowledge that my sociopath would and could have resorted to taking the life of my dog or me and killing either of the two would have been no more of a regret to this sociopath than wasting a perfectly good piece of paper. People and paper can be replaced just as easily and equate to the same for someone that does not have feelings.
Each day that passes without this sociopath in my life I feel a little more joy. It’s strange to think that the reason I got caught up in this relationship is because I feel compassion and love and I’ve been a care-giver most of my life. People void of feelings are doomed to seek out stimulation in any manner that might bring them instant satisfaction and they race from one exciting thing to the next with no regret or feeling for the person left in a heap of exhaustion, sadness or financial ruin. A sociopath seems to thrive on the thrill of taking from decent people what they themselves are lacking and they will take everything you value. They will steal your creditibility, your peace, your sense of security, your time, your finances, your friends, your family, your home and even your life. Anything they cannot attain on their own through socially acceptable behaviors they seek to take it from warm loving people. A sociopath does not need to stick around and witness all of the particular distruction they cause. They do not feel. Don’t try to tell them how a particular act made you feel. This is part of their joy. Mission accomplished and they might even realize that their game is being perfected and have a sence of being a bit grander through your frustrating attempts to have them gain an understanding of socially acceptable behavior. Don’t educate them further on feelings of normal and warm and loving people. They are on to another victim and watching the slow process of doing everything all over again with new tricks and new tools and they become smoother and more dangerous with time and the education you provide for them.
Get yourself out and get on with feelings of boredom and other lovely life giving feelings. Do not give him/her one more tear or one more dollar and certainly don’t give them any more free rent in the place they most crave to be and that is the space in your mind. They want your beautiful mind and that is the one thing you can have back and even better than before. The Sociopath will leave you wiser. If winning is everything to the sociopath you can certainly end this game with the greatest prize. The sweetness of crisp mental clarity can be yours if you want it – the sociopath will never win a prize as grand as this.
Today I feel a little bored and a little sad. As a child when I would say those same words and curl up in my Mom’s lap and she would stroke my hair and then twirl some stands of my hair and then tickle my ear and make me laugh. Bored & boring is a lovely and very comfortable place.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 4:10pm
JaneSmith says:
Valerie,
Wonderful, insightful, honest and truthful feedback! Thanks!
I will take a gander that you aren’t necessarily bored, but content and satisfied that your life is now tranquil, peaceful, QUIET without the chaos of a predator.
People with intellectual/emotional/psychological/spiritual depth are never really bored even when they are sometimes sedentary. We use productive energy when contemplating, ruminating, creating interesting thoughts and ideas. Even if the body is in a relaxed stated of being, our minds are moving and seeking.
Predators are exempt from this gift of deep thinking. That is why they can’t stand to be alone. Why they are uncomfortable sitting calm and still for an extended period of time.
Now, I realize that there are folks on here who are extroverts. Folks who enjoy having their bodies in motion quite often. But even while exercising, being mobile…your minds are in motion also. I do some of my best thinking while taking my early stroll through the neighborhood. The endorphins that are released during my walk help clarify my thinking til it is crystal clear, sharp. No anxiety, just serene thinking.
And you speak truth, Valerie, when you wrote that striving to explain to predators what the hell they are doing that is so wrong, so cruel, so vindictive is a complete and total waste of our precious time and energy. It never worked before so I will hazard a guess that it will not work today.
Doesn’t matter. I’m never going to ALLOW one of those creatures in my life ever again. I’m solid with the knowledge I have learned and my intuition is always on yellow alert. It is what it is and I am blessed to be joyfull, peaceful, and alive.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 5:01pm
Tilly says:
Oxy:
I had some happy tears when I read your post to me ..THANKYOU!!!! and also to witsend and ‘…healed.
I am going through it but MY! ITS WORTH IT!
I have changed my will and cleaned out a whole bunch of garbage in my life on every level.. The truth really does set you free!
I feel so glad about telling people the murderous secrets that I knew would kill me! And they are not killing me! And even if they did it would have been worth it. They don’t run me anymore.
My life is doing a 360 turn. I’m practising what I bin preaching and LF has changed my life completely. FOR THE BETTER!!
I am going to the doctor today (yes, I know, ABOUT TIME!) because I am still physically sick. But I have never been this mentally and emotionally strong in my life.
I aint scared no more…just ready!
LOVE ALL OF YOU!! KEEP ON KEEPIN ON!! THIS SITE IS ONE OF GODS MIRACLES!!!! xoxoxxoxo
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 5:44pm
Rosa says:
Hey Tilly!
I did NOT send the birthday present. I don’t know. I was going to, but instead, just let it go by. There must be something in my subconscious telling me this guy is WRONG for me!
These days, I am going with my gut on almost everything in the LOVE arena.
I spent his birthday present $$ on me, instead.
Happy Birthday to ME!
P.S. I am really not a selfish person. I never used to do things like this.
P.S.S. Erin: You can put away the stilettos, for now.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 6:02pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Getting the “weeds” out of the garden is a wonderful thing and makes the veggies grow better!!! I’m glad you are going for a check up too—and guess what! So am I, tomorrow to the doctor!!!
Sweet rosa, Go with your gut, Chickie!!! Always go with your GUT!!!!
Running away, ARE WE SISTERS? I think we have the same egg donor!!! since I am NO CONTACT WITH HER, I didn’t realize she had started to go blind or was living in florida though. NO CONTACT has been my salvation, and NO MORE DRAMA, I think you sound like you are handling it well though, at least you are not reacting to her drama-rama! Good for you!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 6:46pm
Done says:
Great comments everyone! I especially like how Jennifer narrowed it down to two ‘emotions’ “self-entitlement” and “Self-pity.” That is so true, I wish I had seen it that simply before.
EndthePain,
I hope you are feeling better today. Good luck when your court date comes. Is it soon?
I went to drinks with some coworkers today and was feeling a little sad/lonely briefly–but all those bad urges passed as soon as I got home and came here. Thank you everyone for sharing and reminding me!
I hope everyone has a great week. I am going out of town for a conference so I won’t be on until Saturday. I hope the conference will keep me occupied until I can get back on, I’ve been leaning heavily on LF so it’ll be hard to go that long w/o it.
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 9:18pm
James says:
valerie
Thank you for your entry and insight. I enjoy most the part of
“Don’t educate them further on feelings of normal and warm and loving people. They are on to another victim and watching the slow process of doing everything all over again with new tricks and new tools and they become smoother and more dangerous with time and the education you provide for them.”
In your writing and how true those word be.
Thanks you again very much!
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Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 10:43pm
ablessingid says:
Hmm, I am a diagnosed sociopath but I don’t find ways to manipulate people when I’m bored. In fact, I don’t do it at all.
Is the writer of the opinion that all sociopaths are vile beings hell-bent on exploiting and manipulating others?
Just because I lack in empathy and remorse doesn’t mean I wish anything bad on anyone. I’m a kind and caring person, I go out of my way for others, but I struggle with certain emotions that others readily feel.
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 12:50am
ErinBrockovich says:
ROSA:
Ya know…..I’m gonna tell you again… The fact that you even wrote about it and questioned your intentions were suspect to me, that SOMETHING DIDN”T FEEL RIGHT!
SO I say… GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!
Your gut screamed and you listened with your head! I’m proud of you~ There is a reason we have the intuition….we should learn to trust it!
Go ROSA, GO ROSA, IT”S YOUR BIRTHDAY, IT”S YOUR BIRTHDAY!!!
Stelletos back on the shelf girl.
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 4:55am
Escapee says:
Valerie
Absolutely loved your post – I think our stories are quite similar and your description of your mental turmoil and all the ‘gaslighting’ (like you ended up looking like the mad one) rang bells.
Rosa
You are so funny! I love that you spent the birthday $$ on you. You are like an impish child who has just discovered a wonderful magical power and is enjoying it thoroughly! That sounds like progress to me! Thanks.
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 5:32am
jules says:
escapee, thank you so much for your kind words. i dont think of him much anymore. but this news of him came at a weak moment for me im a bit fragile right now my dad is very ill and it is stressfull to say the least, then hearing this news of how well the s path is going just got to me . i know your right he is always making himself sound better than he is . besides the girl he is seeing lives far away and he has no car or lisence so they prob only spend one night of the weekend together anyway how great or serious can that be. he always has to be bigger and better. your so right about the four month thing i too heard the warning bells but ignored them around this time in fact there was a few weird things before that even that i brushed off. so thanks for being so understanding. i have noticed i always hear how great things are for him when i seem to be going through something hard like my dad being ill at the moment. anyway his relatioships never last . he has had so many since he left me and none of them have gone anywhere, but according to him they were all serious, yeh right. anyway thanks all of you.
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 9:35am
Escapee says:
Jules
So sorry to hear about your father. You need all your energy for this right now…..
the only thing bigger than him is his colossal ego and the need for it to devour and sap everything he comes into contact with. Try to remember this when you’re feeling affected by news of him. They like ‘winning’ – what helps me is to think – ‘well, I’m not aiding and abetting in that right now by ‘feeding you” – it gives me some satisfaction in knowing that I’ve cut off the supply – from this department, at least. He’ll very quickly find another supply, I know – but the thought of him running around in ever-decreasing circles like a hamster in a wheel helps too! (vengeful aren’t I? !!). Anything that gives you strength, I say!
You’re well out of it girl – acknowledge your own strength and resolve and BE PROUD!
Thanks for sharing with us and keep posting for strength whenever you need it.
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Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 9:58am
Thanks4Sharing says:
I’ve been reading the posts on this site since December 2009 to try to figure out what the heck just happened in my life and what I needed to do for my own safety and well-being. I went through the normal stages of healing thanks to the insightful posts and personal stories that everyone here has shared.
Since I also suffer from bipolar disorder, I didn’t know at times what was real and what wasn’t and when I was being “too paranoid” or not observant enough to the signs. I became obsessed with trying to rationalize the things that he did and yet put my full trust into him when he would always say, “I never did that”, or “I don’t know what you’re talking about”, or “Someone else must’ve done it trying to set me up.”
I could write story after story of things that he did and how he blamed me and how he used my personal insecurities against me in subtle ways, but I’ve finally accepted it all as a huge lesson and I am thankful for even having the chance for a new beginning.
I’ve had no contact with my ex thankfully – no phone calls, emails, etc.
There were a few times he wrote me e-mails after I sent him packing far away, and I admit I read them but I never responded and never will. Only reason I read them in the first place is because I am afraid he’s gonna come back and try to find me… After all the lies and manipulation, I don’t know what all he is capable of.
There is one thing though that I’m curious about concerning the BOREDOM aspect being discussed (of all the hell we all have been through, this is one hell of a random thing for me to even bring up, but what the heck…): When I would get back home from running errands or work, there were a couple of times the ex actually had candles lit like he was doing some séance – saying he was ridding the “bad spirits” from our house. Don’t get me wrong – I’m very open to religious beliefs and I would never put anyone down for doing something of that nature. He would tell me about the bad spirits and at one point he even seemed to change and later said the spirit was in him and the spirit was very very sad. I don’t know if that’s possible or not, but I swear I believed him at the time – after all, why would someone ever make something up like that and continue it for hours on end? (Now I feel it’s because he was amused that I was believing his little show).
One night when this was going on, I had work to do and paid little attention to what he was doing. However, he was going on and on about a spirit that had been opening the pantry door throughout the evening. I went over to the door to see if there was a breeze or someething else causing it, but there wasn’t. About an hour later, I was getting up to take a break from my work – my ex had no idea I was watching him sneak over to open the pantry door. I let him sit down on the couch before I walked into the living room – that’s when he yelled, “THEY’RE BACK!!! THEY JUST WON’T LEAVE THIS PLACE ALONE!!! COME SEE THIS!!!!” (LOL guess i wasn’t supposed to see him open the door himself)
I never did tell him that I saw the whole thing. But from then on I stopped playing into his little game. I didn’t have time to play into that little game since he had me going in circles playing every other aspect of my life.
Thank you all and I’m very sorry that I don’t have the insights and solutions for handling situations with an s/p. i only have theories as to what happened to me. as a person with bipolar disorder, i struggle daily to rationalize things happening around me, struggle with depression and thoughts of being a failure, and sometimes extreme paranoia – even when things are actually going really well and are peachy keen haha when i had the P in my life, i didnt know up from down and left from right until the night of the grand finale. i guess i had to see a video recording of myself on his cell phone getting out of the shower to realize that he was doing things that i didn’t know about, and i saw the evidence finally. there was no question in my mind anymore… no gray areas. he couldn’t say, “I didn’t do it.” or any other lie.
Thank you all again, and I don’t know why these things all have happened to us and others, but I sure hope that somehow we all got stronger in some way, some how…
hope…
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 1:11am
Escapee says:
Thanks
Your post just demonstrates just how cruel they are – and even worse, it would seem, the more vulnerable the person.
Re the pantry door – you may have read the term ‘gaslighting’ here or in literature pertaining to S/N/P types. Basically, it’s when they deliberately set out to make you appear crazy – to yourself and others. So many of us on LF have been the victims of this process in many different ways and struggled so hard to overcome the disbelief and resulting mayhem is has caused in our psyches.
Sounds to me like his seances were a little ’show’ for you, as you rightly say. They do so much for effect.
I am so glad that you have rid yourself of this monster from your life. I hope you’ll come back and share again whenever you need or want to.
All love.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 2:53am
James says:
Thanks4Sharing,
“my ex had no idea I was watching him sneak over to open the pantry door. I let him sit down on the couch before I walked into the living room – that’s when he yelled, “THEY’RE BACK!!! THEY JUST WON’T LEAVE THIS PLACE ALONE!!! COME SEE THIS!!!!” (LOL guess i wasn’t supposed to see him open the door himself)”
This has been refer to gaslighting and it’s a attempt to psychologically abuse us. The term first came to public knowledge from a movie:
“Gaslight is a 1940 film based on Patrick Hamilton’s play Gas Light (1938). It was released in the United States under the title Angel Street so the audiences would not confuse it with MGM’s 1944 version starring Charles Boyer and Ingrid Bergman, though both had essentially the same plot. ect.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1940_film)
Interesting enough is I just posted on my blog when my ex s/p tried to “gaslight” me during our separation. You can read it if you want at:
http://james-personalitydisord.....l-gas.html
As stated by Sierra Koester:
“Gaslighting is a form of psychological abuse or brainwashing where one individual attempts to get another individual to believe she is “crazy”. This is most often done through the denial of facts, events, or what one did or did not say. The gaslighter might also directly or indirectly imply that the individual is defective, crazy, or suffers from a mental illness.”
Glad to hear you were able to get away from your ex partner and his abuse.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 4:54am
OxDrover says:
Dear Thanks4sharing,
I am so glad that you found your way to LF and that you are NC with this monster! I am a retired mental health professional and I know how difficult it is sometimes to manage bi-polar and when someone is playing games with reality, “just for FUN” yet! It can throw you into a tail spin.
Please hang around here and read the old archived articles as well as the current ones and the comments, those old articles contain some EXCELLENT information that will help ground you and validate what you have been through! Good luck and God bless you. Again, WELCOME!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 6:54am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
ABLESSINGID…if you don’t manipulate or exploit others, and if, as you say, you are “a kind and caring person,” then I’m afraid you may been been misdiagnosed? While not necessarily driven by cruelty, sociopaths do not meet, with any sincerity, the description of kind and caring? Perhaps the absence of certain emotions that you describe are better explained by another issue?
Jennifer….I completely agree with you that the issue of convenience, in general, is enormously salient. I’ve written extensively how, in general, narcissistic spectrum personalities find any form of inconvenience oppressive, unacceptable, and “states” they feel entitled to escape. The narcissist typically feels entitled to “relief from inconvenience.”
In my upcoming post, scheduled for next week and already written, I make this view very clear. You make excellent points.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 5:38pm
KATYA says:
Steve,
Brilliant!!
Many thanks to you for your comments!
Could you also reflect on a P’s typical response to “inconvenience vs drive for control, power and drive “to win”? is there such a thing as “win at all costs for a P? what if the costs are too high and convenience is valuable?
Looking forward to reading your article next week.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 25 June 2009 @ 7:11pm
Tilly says:
I nearly got sucked into the void of yet another psychopath…OMG! so close..I hate myself….why can’t I see them earlier? Why does it always take me longer than everyone else?? I am so mad at ME!! Another bloody psychopath ripped me off ( this time it was three hundred dollars.. that I don’t have to spare). All my rage at the ex P is back, so triggered. SH*T!!! SH*T SH*T!!! What can I do????
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 6:56am
Escapee says:
God Tilly
Keep your purse closed girl!
If someone’s either asking you for money or cohercing/manipulating you into paying for them – run! run! run!
I have a sound and very solid group of friends – they NEVER asked me to pay for them or put me in a position where I feel I am expected to. This is how I’ve learned to differentiate between what is healthy and all the stuff being ’sick’ that I went through with the S.
Any chance of getting your money back? If you can – do – then spit in their eye!
The rage is at yourself – I know what that feels like – we all do- don’t go into the cycle of beating yourself about it – it’s done! As Kathy says, make it constructive, use the energy to empower yourself ………. soo sorry doll – it’s so horrid to have to go through life in this guarded manner – but no choice…….
All love.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 7:05am
OxDrover says:
Steve,
Please clarify for me how a “psychopath” could be “diagnosed” who was “kind and caring” and did NOT “manipulate”? Isn’t the PCL-R pretty specific for “diagnosing” a psychopath by how they have BEHAVED as well as how they “think”? I can’t imagine ‘diagnosing” a “kind and caring” person who had behaved in a “kind and caring way” even though they might tell me that they did not “feel” “normal” emotional feelings.
Isn’t it more likely that a professionially diagnosed psychopath would tend to lie and say “but I am kind and caring”? Haven’t 99 to 100% of the psychopaths that the victims here dealt with convinced us that they “loved” us and were ‘good people?” Were “kind and caring” about us?
I would also ask you what benefit you think that former or current victims of psychopaths in general would gain from dialogs with such a diagnosed person on a forum for healing from the wounds inflicted by a psychopath?
I have never met, personally or clinically, a professionally “diagnosed” psychopath (by whatever term, sociopath or ASPD etc) that did not have a significant criminal record AND quite a bit of violence in their background as well. Maybe you have met some “kind and caring” people who were diagnosed professionally as psychopaths, but I have never done so.
I would appreciate it if you could clarify for me your thinking and reasoning on your post above. thanks. Oxy
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 5:03pm
Done says:
James,
Thanks for sharing that link to your blog. I guess I must have had my head in the sand, but I hadn’t seen anything on gaslighting since I’ve been on LF. Eye-opening! I was questioning my sanity, and my motives bc my S used to always tell me I was crazy and blatantly lie about everything (Deny the facts). It was so bad, it would be akin to me saying “the sky is blue” and we both can look in the sky, and see that it is blue, but he would say “no it’s red.” I was always amazed at how he was able to deny things (usually situations where I was present) that I knew happened. I’d end up questioning myself.
Gaslighting is just one more a-hah moment I’ve had on this site.
I feel like Charlie Brown, when he is seeking Psychiatric Help from Lucy’s stand, and she’s going through all these phobias, when she gets to the fear of everything Charlie Brown yells “THAT’S IT!” with such force that Lucy falls out of her chair. There have been so many times, I’m skimming through comments and I want to yell “THAT’S IT!” like Charlie Brown. I spent all these years in awe of the S and trying to figure out what it was about him that was off, and now I know he’s an S. That’s it!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 5:40pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Done, Yep! THAT’S IT!!!!! You are so right on. I was gaslighted too…..and couldn’t do anything but “argue” that NO, the sky really is BLUE, why are you doing this? It hurt so much….but now I KNOW WHY!
There is actually I think, a lot of good psychology in the comics, and esp in Peanuts! LOL
I think I have read some articles but can’t remember the exact diagnosis Lucy had but I am sure she is not only highly narcissistic but a bit of a borderline personality disorder as well. maybe even psychopathic, as she sure likes to make poor old Charlie suffer and convinces him she won’t move the football! Which of course, she ALWAYS does, and poor old Good hearted Charlie—reminds me of myself—still wanting to trust and having the same result!
Nice to not be quite so “trusting” any more of the Lucys of this world!
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 10:19pm
sabrina says:
BlessingID – I dont think ANYONE on this blog can be convinced that anyone diagnosed as a sociopath is even A little bit caring! Sorry, just not buying what your selling. Its plausable maybe if the doctor who diagnosed you IS a sociopath TRYING to frame you in order to 1) Exploit you in some physical, emotional, or monetary way, 2) Lie, manipulate, and Gaslight you, OR 3)
start over with no.( 1) and (2).
I must say that other sites may offer you more of what you are looking for. I, for one would LOVE to believe that a S is capable of genuine “caring” for others, but to do that would put me back into the “fog” that I have fought so hard to fight my way back from.
(Report abusive comment)
Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 11:02pm
KATYA says:
JillSmith,
I just read your post from the 22nd. This is so discouraging to me: the one source of discouragement is that I seem to not be able to convey the meaning of what I say adequately. I did not disagree with anything you said, I only am holding on to threads of hope that my child will not grow up to be a P. Reading about your ex, I see that trying to supplement anti-social activities with risk taking socially acceptable ones while raring the child may not work. It is what I thought may be best if one is growing up with “so called excessive need for stimulation”. Of course, Freud did not write about psychopaths (not sure on that one) but in his theory the more aggressive ones who choose socially acceptable behaviors become an asset to society rather than the criminals. For instance, I am thinking that if I were to notice something that would resemble his father, I’d send my son to a military school or all boys private school, and / or encourage him to be a surgeon, so that he can learn to bring about good and deal with “boredom”. But, whom am I kidding? His father was KICKED out of all boys Catholic School for fighting by his own admission. Reading all these posts, I often think about Oxy and I pray that I would never have to go through the agony she’s gone through. My son came into this world at extremely high emotional costs and my X knows this. That’s why I am being punished now with him going after the things that matter to me the most. I am only trying to think up ways to make my son strong and loving as opposed to strong and heartless. (hope I did all right this time with my clarification, not disagreeing with you at all)
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Saturday, 27 June 2009 @ 11:44pm
ErinBrockovich says:
‘I’m a kind and caring person, I go out of my way for others’
Yes, so did my ex S. He was in the service business. He transpired and twisted, ‘kind and caring’ and helping people as his identity…..he forgot the exploitation and preying parts….
He would pick up hitchhikers along the road….(that’s a kind gesture huh?)……once down the road, he would also get blowjobs from them as ‘payment’ of his kind gesture.
You see if you tell the whole story, leaving NOTHING out, ‘kind and caring’ sometimes turn into controlling, manipulative and self serving.
His business ‘kind and caring’ was returned to him by
paycheck, travel, dinners, praise and bragging rights for his kind and caringness!
Meanwhile, he was ‘kind and caring’, placing himself in the ‘center’ of peoples worlds….preying on what his subjects could offer HIM!
His ‘kind and caring’ NEVER came without a price……EVER. ‘Kind and caring’ was easy to portray, for him!
The S’s ‘kind and caring’ only appeared if you were a client or he perceived a ‘payoff’, he used ‘kind and caring’ to impress others, because if you thought of him as kind and caring you would be less likely to see his ‘hits’ coming or believe that you were victimized by him…….because, after all….he’s the ‘kind and caring’ one!
If you didn’t place him on payroll or there was nothing in it for him…..the kind and caring stayed in hiding.
We never saw ‘kind and caring’ at home.
The general statement of I’m kind and caring, is nothing more than what WE wish we were.
I would be more interested in what I see/experience in your behaviors, first hand than in any diagnosis.
Kind and caring with absolutely NO payoff. (Keeping a dying person company, changing diapers, cleaning up poo and vomit…….knowing beforehand that your NOT IN THE WILL)!!!!
Making another feel good for the sake of making another feel good.
Otherwise…..’kind and caring’ is about the schmooze, the con, the manipulation towards the eventual payoff. (whatever the payoff may be).
My S used to ask me all the time, ‘does ‘that’ make me a bad person’.
Oh, no my dear……your ‘kind and caring’.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:05am
sabrina says:
I guess I am very suspicious, and find it striking that blessingId in the 2 posts that I have read from this blogger has not commented of being shocked at all to hear the damage the “not so caring” sociopaths we ‘ve had the misfortune of meeting have done. The posts themselves seem oddly out of place and void of real interaction. I guess from an “empath’s” view – what S’s call us, Im thinking I would be blown away by the fact that my clinical diagnosis matches that of the monsterous ones (S) described over and over again here. Just a thought…
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:24am
Rosa says:
Erin:
Mine was in the “service” industry as well. And he picked up hitchhikers!!! And he was “kind and caring”, too. “Never intended to hurt anybody.”
What are the odds??
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:26am
sabrina says:
P.s excuse me for being so blunt, I dont have it in me these days to be diplomatic, but I think if I had the diagnosis,(of a S) like this blogger, I would be asking HOW the Heck do I beat this thing??? (likened to cancer) not defensive on how caring I may or may not be..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:29am
KATYA says:
Erin, Sabrina, Rosa
Will you let me pick your brain a bit?
What you wrote: You see if you tell the whole story, leaving NOTHING out, ‘kind and caring’ sometimes turn into controlling, manipulative and self serving.
His business ‘kind and caring’ was returned to him by
paycheck, travel, dinners, praise and bragging rights for his kind and caringness! – Is so true. I had a phone call recently from a woman who only knows of me and nothing of my situation. She has severe PTSD and insisted on seeing me even though we had never before met. She heard I guess about how righteous I am. I don’t know what she heard, but she conveyed to me severe abuse of power by her therapist. I was stunned. Knowing her therapist, I can say that many of us suspected “something very wrong with her” but could not put our finger on it. Now, having heard what I heard, and having read what I read, I KNEW who she is. Here is the problem: the client has PTSD AND BORDERLINE Personality disorder. But, in my heart I believe each word she told me. I have given her proper phone numbers to file a complaint. However, knowing first hand now (thanks, my dearest X for all the STDs and PTSDs you have bestowed on me) what PTSD feels like, I am sure she’ll need support. I am not strong enough to fight two Ps. And I can’t walk away from blatant abuse and con and control by her “professional therapist” Any advise?
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:34am
KATYA says:
you all are humorous today
Thanks for the Saturday evening, pleasure to spend it with yous/ Enjoyed your comments, Rosa, Sabrina
LOL
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:35am
Tilly says:
Thankyou Escapee! Your right ! when I said what can I do I didn’t mean about getting my money I mean what can i do to stop hating myself and being soo triggered ?
But since then something much bigger has happened and I am not sure if I should blurt it out or not.
I really only want to talk to Oxy about it, but thats impossible.
I feel very emotional about it so i guess I will come back later and spill the beans.
Or not.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:38am
ErinBrockovich says:
Rosa:
Probably very good!!!!
If you think about it…..to hook someone, you have to be ‘kind and caring’ in appearance ya know!
I have NEVER in my life picked up a hitchhiker…..I would be afraid of being in danger…..What a dumb way of thinking….huh…..think of the sexual favors I could have been recieving!!!
What an idiot!!!!!
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 12:46am
ErinBrockovich says:
Katya:
I would recommend you referring her to a more appropriate therapist at this time.
I would encourage her to follow through on the formal complaints re: her therapists…..
But, I don’t think you should get involved with this one currently.
She is a diagnosed S, your still reeling…..I think it’s a conflict for you.
That’s my 2 cents.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:01am
KATYA says:
The client is not an S. The client has PTSD and Borderline Personality Disorder (which is tough, and manipulative but not usually antisocial). After all she’s been through she does not want to continue with her therapy (I hope temporarily) and I agree with you: I should not take it on because the ONE is enough. But,I cannot stand by and watch this happen. Having given her the numbers I felt like a coward who fled and left her to deal with the shame and the guilt – well, you know… Plus, because the therapist has PhD next to the name and the client has BP next to hers, I know who will be believed unless people like me who have suspected this all along stand up for client rights. (OHHH
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:08am
sabrina says:
Katya- Your wanting to reach out and help her, is commendable- BUT DONT. What more can you do for this person? How did she get your number?? I think something about “personality disorder” turns on my DGAD (dont give a damn) attitude. I know it sounds super cold, but you cant heal from your current traumas while adding more drama. If you need a break from your reality- watch a steamy soap opera- dont create your own
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:12am
ErinBrockovich says:
Tilly:
I’m not oxy….but I wanted to respond…..
Are you okay??????
Youv’e had a few downer weeks. Honey you need to take an emotional break, let it all out of your head and recoup.
You need to feel better, emotionally about yourself…..DO NOT FORGET WHO TILLY IS!!!!
Yes, we all do things we wish we hadn’t….(I’m currently in a predicament), BUT…..it’s about learning, lessons and growth.
We can’t read about ‘learning, lessons and growth’……we MUST LIVE IT! AND…..you are! Turn your mindset around and look at what life is trying to teach you……find the lessons here……
I would suspect this lesson is…….QUIT HELPING OTHERS RIGHT NOW!!!!! It’s tilly time!
Until you learn these things……life will continue to bring it back around.
So STOP……look, listen and feel…..give yourself a break and collect yourself…..THEN….move forward with caution and awareness.
You need to remove the ’shit on me’ sign from your forehead, and don’t forget the ‘kick me’ note on your back.
You must find your ‘fuck you’ attitude and NOT LET ANYONE TAKE ADVANTAGE of you!!!!
It’s time to take Tilly on……It’s all about TILLY! If you need to foster the inner sociopath to find this attitude….then do it!
Forget about helping ANYONE but TIlly right now……you just can’t do it. There is no charity when you can’t do it for yourself.
Find your strength, give yourself time……don’t look back, don’t look forward…..look at your here and now…..if your not happy….CHANGE IT! You have the power…..don’t give it up to negativity!
XXOO
I’m sending strength your way girlfriend!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:14am
sabrina says:
Katya- sorry , I just realized you are professionally trying to help her- I thought her contact was more of a personal nature. Still would say that it may be more stressful than you need !! take care.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:17am
KATYA says:
LOL
I agree with the two of you, though in my field EVERYONE has got something. The woman spent time at a concentration camp. She was raped, family members killed – some by enemy, some by taking their lives. Part of the reason I feel she cannot be strong enough to do it on her own. Others have complained before her – petty talk, but none were strong enough to make calls. This “therapist” is out screwing with people’s minds and having a control freak ride at their expense, it seems (G-d forgive me if I badmouth a great woman, but too many signs, just too many). I will try to look for another fool to take on this victorious deed. I am a fighter, but this thing P’s done to me makes me walk away from something I would ordinarily feel responsible not to walk away from.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:18am
ErinBrockovich says:
Katya;
I can relate to your wanting to not leave her, and all your justifications…….
BUT….she is responsible for she and you are responsible for YOU.
You can’t force her to contnue therapy, and you can’t prove to her that ‘all therapists’ are good.
You can’t give away charitably if you have none to give currently.
I, like Sabrina, know if may sound cold and callous…..but leave it alone.
Are you really in a position to ’stand up for clients rights’.
This client should stand up for her own rights. If she give a shit, she will see it through……if not…..
The way the systems are set up……it’s so uphill to expose and no one really gives a damn…..
I think you have your own fish to fry currently.
Maybe in a different place and time, I would say…..go girl…..fight like hell for her….
But….not currently for you!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:24am
KATYA says:
Interesting it’s coming out now, when we are reading what we are not supposed to, and maybe this discussion will help you decide. I come from the peoples where Others are Everything and Self is last. Telling someone in my language to “love themselves” is a very sexually inappropriate term (that’s my dry humor, but it’s true, if you translate languages). I was raised with the notion of “the group decides and prioritizes, stand for the truth and honesty at all costs, give of yourself and your life for the betterment of society. OK, OK so they lied and corrupted S’s were ruling the group. But, I am a firm believer that together and for the benefit of society is better. (maybe, not, LOL, Maybe, that’s why the client picked me. Oxy? )
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:28am
sabrina says:
Katya- you have to do whats in your heart thats right, bottom line- no matter what any of us suggest. I am in a real defensive cocoon place after the week that I ‘ve had so you can disregard anything from me that dosent sit well with you.
I do firmly believe that in general-with emphasis in general- that one should reach out to others in need of help whenever we can, and in doing so it also accomplishes to get ones focus/mind off of oneself- hence rejecting a narccissitic type life style. I am much more humble and experience the most peace in helping others. I just think this much intenseness (?) may drain you more than you have to give right now. If you are convinced that you need to help her- maybe suggestions like youve already given her would be enough . Im sure you will make the best decision. nite..
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:30am
sabrina says:
meant to say good nite..xoxo
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:31am
KATYA says:
Erin, Sabrina,
you are right. I will step aside only because I feel I am not strong enough and have my fish to fry. I will check on her and try to empower her as best I can and stay in the shade. I just have grown so much distaste for Ps, it’s become a personal thing: ME vs the Ps (not good). (again, the client has no way of knowing, different cultures, different languages, etc. So, I am not on a witch hunt, YET, LOL)
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:32am
KATYA says:
Good Night. I actually quite successfully forgot the anxiety and the fear that overwhelmed me today. Thank you ladies. I will go and read even more about the Ps. Oh, they are a tiring bunch; I wish I could just learn to lie and manipulate – that’d be so easy… night
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:35am
ErinBrockovich says:
Katya:
I’m just going on what I have learned in my very ’short’ years on this earth….living and giving, learing and losing…..
Yes…..it’s about ERIN and her kids FIRST now. I still give, every day. I give of myself, my time, my energy (i’ve got no money left Ha ha)….but I still give….I just don’t give and trust like I used to…..and I am much more confident about myself and my situation than I have ever been!
I do believe it ‘takes a village’……but I’m the chief of my village now.
I respect others opinions, but I don’t have to ‘live’ by them…..I speak up now, I don’t coward and internalize.
I can compartmentalize my feelings, but not bury them because the ‘rest of the world’ may not agree.
I like who I am today!
And you know what….in your language or mine……’to love themselves’ is okay…..no matter what language it translates into!!!!
I am much healthier emotionally and spiritually if I view the world from the eyes of……’others are important, but self is first’.
If you don’t have ’self’…..then what is there to give society?
Yes, it does sound like S’s were in control of the rule making group!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:39am
KATYA says:
LOL
COOL STUFF Erin. I have nothing to add. Well said
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:42am
ErinBrockovich says:
Good night ladies~
Stay strong and focused.
(Is that the same as ‘live long and prosper’)
Oh dang….it’s time for bed! Shut up Erin……..
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 1:44am
libelle says:
Just a thought: “Kind and caring” = “Grooming”?
That the P/N/S lie even towards themselves? They say “I am caring” but have in hindsight the puropse to exploit? I think we all have some kind of manipulative traits in us, and it hit home with me when I read in another thread Kathy Hawk wrote about “The man I USED (highlighted by me) to get over my father”. Well it was exactly that, I could finally see my father in the mirror of the X for what he really was, but it was not so in the beginning. I found out this by looking “for manure in the s**t”. What good might be in this horrible encounter. I first thought that I was manipulating him myself, but then I found out I did not fall in love to use this man on purpose to do some therapy on myself, but purely because I loved him unconditionnally.
With the N/S/P it is vice versa. They pretend it being manure and it turns out to be s**t.
That is the hard part, and requires a lot of gut feeling and street smartness, I think, to be able to distinguish between “care” and “groom”. Not to be paranoid but catious not to offend and abhor the really caring but not openly walk into a knife that has been offered to us as being defensive and “caring”.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 2:30am
Tilly says:
That would mean i would have to tell them everything i know and risk death
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 2:32am
libelle says:
Dear Tilly. I would not risk my life for anything or anybody! I can just speak for myself of course but I firmly believe there are very few people “martyr material” out there. I can assure you as I have seen many people die (as a Cancer doctor) and I have accompanied many people during their last period on earth they ALL pay back what they took unrightful.
I also had the urge to help justice to prevail, but not anymore. I have compassion for my next, be there for them if they want me to be there, but I leave it now to higher powers which are so much better than I ever can be.
I am not here and supposed to rescue anybody but to look after myself which is hard enough sometimes. LOL. Death will come anyways, but there is life BEFORE death, and for that we have some responsibilities, to use this our precious time with prudence and joy and diligence. I wish for you dear Tilly that you might see the light at the end of the tunnel quite soon, and wish you a peaceful night and a relaxing sunday!
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 3:27am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Send an e mail request to donna and ask her to forward your private e mail to me and I will answer you off line.
Katya, I can see by your posts that you ARE a “kind and caring” person, and THAT’S THE PROBLEM—we are ALL “kind and caring” people and that is what the P’s hooked into. Our kind and caring natures make us want to believe them, want to help them and the exploit the “pity poly” and want us to rescue them.
The problem is, that is what they are using to hook us into “helping” them and THEY THEN TAKE ADVANTAGE OF US.
We ALWAYS put them FIRST and we must learn to PUT OURSELVES FIRST. When we give all our care to OTHERS and NONE TO OURSELVES, this is not good at all.
When we STARVE ourselves totally we cannot have the strength to work toward feeding others. (Metaphorically speaking) We must take care of ourselves so that we can take care of and give to others….and if we give it all to those that COULD AND SHOULD “feed” themselves, we have nothing left to take care of ourselves or to help those who can’t help themselves.
I have been trained from birth to be a “rescuer” and to “rescue” the psychopaths in the family from the consequences of their bad behavior by taking on the consequences myself. NO MORE, NO LONGER, NEVER AGAIN.
While we are recovering, we must focus ALL our energies on healing ourselves—it takes energy and time and thought and we must not let ourselves be distracted by trying to help others when we can hardly stand up ourselves. I focused my energy on helping others when I was not even able to “crawl” much less walk, it was easier on me to focus on other’s problems because it kept me from having to face my own problems—-facing our own problems, our own pain, is the most painful way, but the ONLY way, in my opinion, that we can heal. We can’t go under, over, or around the pain, we must go THROUGH it, but we come out the other side, like the Phoenix rising from its own ashes. Golden and happy!!!! (((hugs))))
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 9:21am
Tilly says:
Oxy:Doesn’t feel right to email Donna as I don’t know her from a bar of soap.
My P daughter is back and has teamed up with her P father to literally destroy me. Their timing couldn’t be better, for whilst I am physically ill from the stress of it all, I am emotionally ready to do whatever it takes to see these psychopathic murderers finally jailed for the murders that he (and his friends) committed 25 years ago. We don’t have the death penalty over here, and there are plenty of corrupt police, judges and solicitors and lawyers. That is why these psychopaths are still free. That is why it is so dangerous for me.
Looking back, I think that is what my American teacher meant when she, “be careful,” she said that this site was heavily monitored. I think she meant that it was monitored by both corrupt and legal authorities.
All this “purging” is the culmination of going no contact with my P daughter. I had no idea it would bring all this to a head. I have been legally abused in the past more than anyone I have ever read (or heard ) about except Sunny Jacobs. (see her book “Stolen Time”). (And then, even she put herself before her kids back then, which I would never have done in a million years.)
My P daughter wouldn’t care less underneath, if her father was a murderer or not, so long as she was getting attention, money, her own way etc. But she will pretend to believe he is NOT one for the sake of seeing my downfall and a few dollars. She has the face of an angel and can shed a bucket of tears at a seconds notice.
Libelle:
I don’t have “an urge to help justice prevail”. Rather, I see my own demise at the hands of these psychopaths now that my daughter is back in the country and has reacted to my “no contact”. She has told them I have given her names in the past which is my death warrant. I am the only person left living who knows. All the others were killed because they were going in be witnesses s in the court cases. No other reason.
I have lived my life under this cloud for my kids.
When I found out through LF that my daughter is a P and the condition can be genetic, something changed in me… bigtime.
I meet with the detectives later today. They approached me.
So that says a lot to begin with.
It says to me that if I don’t get in first, they will.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 4:04pm
libelle says:
Dear Tilly! I hope the very best for you, and that you might be soon in a very safe place and alive and well! It is the worst nightmare I could ever imagine I have heard of- can’t you just disappear as Oxy did? Hopefully the detectives find some clever solution for this horrible situation. Take care, my thoughts are with you ((((((((((Hugs)))))))))
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 4:36pm
ANewLily says:
Tilly, I am where I am because I feared for my life. I did what I could to protect myself and then decided that’s all I can do — except to regain my strength and health. But, I never put down my guard.
I truly believe you can trust Donna — she is the owner of this site. All she would do (according to policy) is to honor your request to give your email address to Oxy. She only “monitors” this site to protect all of us posters from the “bad guys.” Nothing sinister about it.
My thoughts and prayers are with you as you handle this current problem with grace and courage. You can do it. I know you can.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 4:59pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy…i’m not sure if i’ve misunderstood your post, or you mine? In my last posted comment, I suggested, as I think you are also suggesting, that “kind and caring” unless it’s contrived manipulatively, is really not consistent with the psychopath’s personality. Psychopaths are not genuinely kind and caring individuals. That doesn’t mean they can’t selectively behave in a civilized manner when it serves their purposes to do so…and certainly they can selectively choose to make “seemingly kind and caring” behaviors (again, when it suits their ulterior agenda) But I think we both agree that “kind and caring” in a sincere form is quite antithetical to psychopathy.
The LoveFraud poster to whom I responded said he’d been diagnosed as a sociopath, then added that he was “kind and caring” and never manipulated anyone. That didn’t sound to me, on the surface, very psychopathic, although as I think you point out very aptly, many psychopaths will be extremely skilled at cultivating the perception of themselves as kind and caring.
I believe we agree on all this?
Steve
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 7:17pm
ANewLily says:
Steve, I think I remember that you even suggested to that poster in your response that he might have been misdiagnosed. I thought that was a wise comment.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 8:23pm
shabbychic says:
Tilly: You are in my prayers! You have been through so much and have a spirit that will just not give up! I really admire you for that. Your emotional strength is awesome and inspiring. I echo the same words… be careful.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 10:26pm
Rune says:
Tilly:
Donna watches over this site and helps people preserve their anonymity. If you email her with your request, and Ox-Drover agrees, she can put you in touch.
I am concerned for you. Do what you need to do to stay safe. You can have a life that is free of the fear and manipulation. Stay strong, clearheaded, and if your intuition gives you a hint as to how you can escape, please pay attention.
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Sunday, 28 June 2009 @ 10:41pm
OxDrover says:
Yes, Steve, we do agree on that psychopaths can FAKE “kind and daring” but your post seemed to indicate that you took the “word” of this person that they had been diagnosed but WERE “kind and caring” and I have never in my entire career seen a psychopath who was “diagnosed” who wasn’t one, and I have seen MANY WHO WERE, but were not professionally diagnosed as PPD. It is my observation that more PPDs are misdiagnosed as something “lesser” than the other way round. It seems to me that few clinicians are sure enough to actually give a diagnosis of PPD except for serial killers, even when the person has all the characteristics of a PPD.
Most (if not all) of the PPDs (self proclaimed) who have come on here have said in one form or another “but I’m not bad” or “I’m kind and caring” and I say BS!!!! Being a PPD PRECLUDES “KIND AND CARING” and we know that a PPD will lie when the truth fits better, therefore, after a person here or anywhere, procliams themself “officially diagnosed” as a PPD, I assume that is the LAST NON-LIE I WILL HEAR OUT OF THEIR MOUTH.
For a person to say in one post I am “diagnosed” PPD and then say “but I’m kind and caring”—-one statement or the other is an outright LIE—-they can’t both be true. So if a person is coming on here proclaiming themselves a PPD when they have not been diagnosed, theya re a liar. If they HAVE been diagnosed and say “But I am kind and caring” then I think they are also a LIAR—-AND IF A PERSON COMES HERE AND OBVIOUSLY LIES, I don’t see how interactions with them can in any way be beneficial to any of us.
If that makes me an opinonated old bat, so be it. LOL I’ve just ahd my fill of PPDs and their LIES and attempts to cause chaos and trouble. Many posters here are STILL in DANGER from their PPDs and others are still actively emotionally bleeding from their wounds, PTSD etc. and so I don’t think that a “kind and caring” attempt to “help” these people and dialog with them is beneficial to any of us, or to LF in general. It isn’t my site and I can’t ban such people, and if I did have that “power”, they would just come back under another name I am sure. For my 2 cents worth I just won’t interact with them any further. It just kind of shocked me that you seemed so “understanding” and “caring” about this person who was either LYING about being a “diagnosed” PPD OR LYING about being “kind and caring.” I think the odds of a “kind and caring” person being MISdiagnosed as a PPD are slim to none! So maybe I am too judgmental and you are more in tune by being compassionate toward this person who showed up here saying they were “a kind and caring” diagnosed psychopath, but it just sends chills down my body when one shows up and I have never seen a positive dialog with these people either here at LF or any other blog.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 12:08am
KATYA says:
I think Steve was being politely fescisious, Oxy. He did point out that the person may have been misdiagnosed, for one contradicts the other. I also noticed that the P did not post again (Unless I missed one). Not that Steve would need my defending, lol, but I thought it was wise of him to stand up in a very non-challenging way.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 12:20am
Rune says:
Katya:
You seem like a “kind and caring” person. And I also believe that your are intelligent. That makes you exactly the sort of person that a sociopath would like to get into conversation so that he/she could mess with your sense of reality. That is EXACTLY how we got caught by dangerous, manipulative, sociopathic people.
When we are tolerant of “unusual” but really disordered thinking, we train ourselves to tolerate things that we should not tolerate — not if we are to be safe and happy and calm.
If someone introduces themselves as being diagnosed as a sociopath, we should be very, very cautious. Trying to reverse that sort of diagnosis from a distance with no direct interaction is not a good idea. Notice how we are already distracted from the subject of trying to heal ourselves because someone showed up with a different agenda. We’ve spent so much time around “sociopath logic” that we’re comfortable with it — even when we know that THEY ARE MORALLY INSANE!
This is not a good thought pattern for us to reinforce for ourselves. For our own health and well-being we should simply maintain NO CONTACT!
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 1:58am
KATYA says:
thank you, Rune, I am starting to understand this better and better, and getting angrier and angrier that they are allowed to continuously traspass human souls and s&$&t wherever they are. The more I find out about mine the harder it is to deal with what I had put my family through, the more confused I get about how I could be so egotistical in seeking love, affection and understanding and not considering who it was I was seeking them from, less healed. “Kind and caring” is what they present, no doubt. Mine had it all and it was still not enough. My poor family members suffered and continue to suffer and it is I who put them in danger. Starting to think I was insane, especially after last night’s conversation with my kids and finding out that while having it all at my expense he had some guts to steal from me.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 7:56am
PInow says:
I just renamed myself. The PC would not remember the login. Has anyone had experience with coercion and extortion in “legalese”?
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 8:07am
James says:
Done,
Your are welcome about the GL (gaslighting)
“Charlie Brown yells “THAT’S IT!” with such force that Lucy falls out of her chair.”
Yes, that’s it’s! moment something I too have found here and other sites concerning issues with my ex s/p. Talk about fog and confusion? Soon after my world part apart I felt detached and numb then I would see or read something about the disorder and it feel like cold water throw at me shocking my body before I react! And yes, sometimes I almost fell off my chair! Literally!
I believe these days of shock are done and I know enough now not to be surprised anymore. But one never knows, our learning seems to be on going. So just in case one saying I often tell myself is “expect the unexpected”…
Oh, one other thing about Charlie Brown and Lucy. How she would trick Charlie into kicking the football again and again only to pull it away just before he is able to kick the ball, sending him through the air and him landing on his back and her walking up to Charlie Brown and looking at him as he is laying there looking at the sky, then asking him “poor Charlie Brown you are never going to learn are you?”
So many times I ask myself the same question, when am I ever going to learn?
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 8:46am
OxDrover says:
PInow, I think you should go to the LF store site and order “The Legal abuse syndrom” I have it and it is a great book, it tallks about how we are RE-raped by the legal system after being emotionally raped by the Ps.
Glad you figured out how to stay on LF—
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 9:24am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, i completely agree with your analysis. what you say makes perfect sense.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 9:39am
OxDrover says:
Katya,
Maybe I “over reacted” to the post Steve made to the self proclaimed P, but “over reacting” is what WE (former victims) tend to do when we are “triggered”—-what triggers us?
Well, it is different for every person of course, but let’s say you were bitten by a brown snake—then if yo uwere walking across my lawn and saw my brown water hose lying in the grass, you might be TRIGGEREd by the sight and jump out of your skin trying to get away from the harmless water hose.
Steve may (looking at it in retrospect) have been “tongue in cheek” to the self proclaimed P, but it is difficult to tell from the printed word what would possibly be obvious in a face to face conversation.
But on the surface what appeared to me to be “understanding and concern” and a “kind and caring” post to a self ladmitted professionally diagnosed P “triggered” an outrage in my emotions. Possibly I was triggered by a “water hose” but having been bitten by the “brown snakes” over and over and over, even as far along the line as I am toward recovery, none the less, even I was TRIGGERED into an outrage.
Something I said on a blog a week or so ago “triggered” someone on this blog, and they e mailed me privately with their upset and hurt feelings. What I said in the blog, they admitted was true, but it HURT their feelings terribly by the WAY I said it. In fact, though I had said in the post that it was my OPINION, it triggered something in them and they actually read different words because they felt attacked personally, though the post was a GENERAL opinion not specific to them, but it triggered them because they had chosen to engage in some of the behavior I was concemning IN MY OPINION…because I speak forcefully sometimes, I triggered someoen unintentionallty and totally not aimed at them.
Because i ican’t read Steve’s mind and know exactly WHY he spoke to the self admitted P who was, by their own words “kind and caring” as he did, but it came across TO ME as “you poor baby, maybe you were misdiagnosed” (again that is NOT what steve typed on to the screen, but it was MY EMOTIONAL REACTION and it triggered me.
Being triggered and over reacting to what people say, and what people do is many many times the post-P mind set and behavior, we become cranky, and see offense where none is intended, we get hurt feelings when someone is not trying to acttack us….it is PTSD and though we work hard NOT to react this way, sometimes one comes on us unawares and TRIGGERS an over reaction before we have time to even really THINK. It gets to our emotional brain before it gets to our logical one, and we REACT FIRST and think LATER.
What steve actually SAID was not “harmful” to me in any way, it didn’t effect my life at all, it wasn’t even addressed to me, yet, because it TRIGGERED ME I became very upset and angry. I reealize LOGICALLY, that steve was not aiming that post at me, yet I RE-ACTED.
It actaully, when you think about it afterwards, is another learning experience for ME. Another thing I hav elearned about myself and about triggers. So in the end, even a negative experience from being triggered can help us learn and heal. (((hugs)))
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 9:41am
Kathleen Hawk says:
Steve,
I just want to throw in my two cents here. What you said made sense to me. You’re a therapist. The person presented two conflicting pieces of information, plus the non-confrontational and inquisitive tone of the writer. A therapist (and most people) would normally try to clarify and resolve the conflict, rather than doing an instant diagnosis on the speaker.
Just because we’re hyper-sensitive doesn’t mean that you need to change what you do. I know you don’t need my or anyone else’s permission. But we do know that we’re sensitive.
Actually when I read that post, I went through my mental file cabinet to think about when a diagnosed sociopath would have feelings like that or experience that would confirm that self-analysis about being kind and caring.
And something popped up that I saw occasionally with my ex. Sort of a Munchausen by proxy thing. With certain people, particularly those who were vulnerable to his crazy-making behaviors, he could switch into healing angel mode of concerned attention and pretty impressive nursing behavior. This would happen when they were psychologically imploding. He would say encouraging things, take over chores, bring food and drinks, be amusing and generous. I saw it several times with me and also with an ex-girlfriend.
But then it would ultimately wind-down with reverting to type. Making it about he was right and we were wrong. Or that we were stupid and he was smart. And he would puff up again and exit back to his personal interests, leaving the final message of how inadequate we were.
And you know, this is one of those things that is so difficult to interpret, as you mentioned on your radio show. It becomes really hard to distinguish whether the ultimate impression he left — about what a time-consuming pain we were and how this was all ultimately about our inadequacies — seemed so crushing because we were really not firing on all cylinders (which was definitely true for both of us). Or whether he actually was conscious trying to destabilize us further (which is tempting, but I don’t think he was really that conscious). Or whether it was just an opportunity to make himself look grand and important that ultimately bored him (which seems most likely to me).
In any case, I think, if asked about his capacity to be kind and caring, he would have no difficulty saying he was and pointing to these events. And it would be true for him. Like that poster, he does imagine that he is trying to be a good person.
It doesn’t change what he’s capable of. Or rather not capable of. That’s the problem with not feeling empathy or remorse. That internal meter that measures our impact on other people is missing. So it’s not that the poster was lying, per se. It’s that that person’s “truth” fails to incorporate some information the would consider necessary in talking about being “kind and caring.” Like how it affects the other person.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:03am
sabrina says:
Hi everyone, very interesting and wise contributions here. My humble opinion (for whatever its worth
is that Steve, as a therapist seemed to have remained neutral and unbiased in dealing with the diagnosed S, and not investing in any emotional way which is highly professional.
I took it more like Katya said “he was being- politely fescicious” which my post to the writer was more on that agenda as well.
I COMPLETELY understand Oxy’s feelings regarding the waste of time it is and how we have, and are still suffering from the involvement with these disordered individuals.
From what I make of it, all of the loving,intelligent people here ( non P’s) are ON THE SAME PAGE and in this together! I dont think- at least hope, not a single one of us could EVER be fooled or feel the slightest inclination that the “kind and caring” comment actually has any truth to it. Iagree that this is NOT the place for a P to get any “air time.” So , predators should troll more furtile waters, we aren’t taking the bait!
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:42am
sabrina says:
PS kudos to you Oxy that you realized and admitted what a trigger it was for you. We ALL have those. You set the tone here to work through our issues in honest, open communication. Its a beautiful forum here to express what we really feel and I think you were being really protective over others even MORE than yourself!
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:47am
sabrina says:
(in the sense that you were thinking about how the S can open new wounds to so many who are struggling here)
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:51am
ANewLily says:
Oxy, I can so understand your explanation of being “triggered.” Whether or not it was an “over-reaction” I don’t know but I do know that I certainly appreciated your analogy of the brown snake and the brown garden hose!!
It reminds me of a real-life experience that might fit the topic of this thread — boredom and the sociopath.
Years ago, I came down the steps and saw what I thought was one of the kids’ jumping rope. No problem, I bent down and picked it up — and then SCREAMED as it moved in my hand.
My EX (to relieve his boredom, I suppose) had brought the harmless garden snake inside on purpose to get a reaction from me. I don’t think I had an “over-reaction” but a true “trigger.” One’s reality is sure messed with when NOT expecting an inanimate rope to turn into a living creature.
Interesting but part of the lingering memory about this episode was that NOT ONE of my family came to check on my well-being. I WAS okay after the reality set in (I’m not afraid of snakes) but the memory of the non-empathy and non-caring of my EX remains.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:56am
ANewLily says:
BTW, folks, if you laughed at my “snake story” I want you to know that I am laughing, too. Not yet about the non-empathy but the “living jump rope” for sure.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:58am
OxDrover says:
Good points, Sabrina and Kathy,
Kathy, your X’s “kind and caring” is SOOOOOOOO typical and what a fake “kind and caring” they DO PUT ON. So gentle and giving—WHERE IS THE PUKE EMOTICON WHEN YOU NEED ONE? LOL
That “demonstrated” “kind and caring” behavior vs the later devaluation is definnitely CRAZY MAKING…..or the “kind and caring to others in PUBLIC” but behind closed doors, ANYTHING BUT, “kind and caring” to US.
While my egg donor would not score very high on the PCL-R at all, vs the 30+ my P son would score, and I have dubbed her a “psychopath by proxy” for doing my P son’s bidding and being his dupe, she none-the-less does display BEHIND CLOSED DOORS some of the entitlement, fake mask, lying, etc. but she I am sure PERCEIVES HERSELF as “kind and caring” even when she is LYING and when she is ABUSING because she is “entitled” to punish others when they don’t do what SHE THINKS is right.
So the PCL-R doesn’t “pick up” on scoring some people who have two-faces—one publicly “kind and caring” and the other much more viscious “behind closed doors.”
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 12:07pm
PInow says:
Kathleen, I agree with your take on it. And in keeping up with the Snake description, I think “Kind and caring” is a manipulative way IN, sort of like “Lie low and strike the victim” or “hypnotize by appearing charming”. Speaking of boredom, My wonderful EX would do Everything good. – once. then he would not. It’s like he would expect that that was enough. and then make it sound like he’s been doing it all along. What a creeper. Now, he did say he had ADHD, but ADHD isn’t like this: he could stay with the task for a long time, finish it and no longer care for it. Say, maybe, that’s why his life is a series of 3 year fragments with so many women?
Good group discussion. I am enjoying the thread. Feels like you all are the only ones who can really say “I understand” and “I can relate”
Oxy, I was triggered badly. I sat there shaking and paralyzed, and I saw that no one answered and the blog went “dead”. I was so angry and not wanting to feel victimized and not wanting to cave in, and needing your guys’ loving reassurance, that I e-mailed Donna privately seeking her assistance. NC with My P. If there were three – four self- proclaimed Ps blogging and we went NC what would happen to this wonderful support we have grown to really benefit from? Just more questions, no answers… But, if we put up some joint front, they’d be OH MY VICTIMIZED? maybe ? for one millisecond? We should think up some code of behavior all of us agree to follow with such bloggers, so that they don’t luck us out of our own supports. Just a thought. Did not mean to offend anyone, totally understand Oxy’s reaction. Still think Kathleen put it well: Steve gave a therapeutic response. Still think it was brilliant, Steve.
Here is an idea: one reason to be NC is so that they don’t know how much they hurt us. Because it may feel so good to them, they’ll be coming back for more. If we are neutral, it may be as bad as NC. Ideas?
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 12:22pm
blueskies says:
Escapee: ‘I went through a phase of feeling that the S had appealed to my vanity and this was my weakness.’
Yeah, this is a familiar and confusing feeling for me. The lunatic told me during the discard, that I had ’simply become addicted to the nice things he said, to the flattery’ Huh? What you mean I like being told I was loved and beautiful by the man I loved and thought was beautiful and that is a weakness of mine?? OF course you instantly start thinking is it? Was I? Surely its fine to enjoy being told you are loved, in a relationship or friend ship with a normal person? and yes I liked it very much, trouble was I never really felt it, it was never demonstrated, just empty words…A last-ditch headfuck to send me on my way…
(Also Thank you Escapee for your kind words on the ‘child molester’ thread, I really lost it for while there… still havent found it! you were so kindxx;)
on with the catch-up reading:)
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 12:34pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
blueskies,
Your ex telling you that you were addicted to flattery is a riot.
Why did he bother to convince you of how wonderful he is, if not so that you would support his shaky ego?
It’s why the whole experience put me off compliments. If someone can tell me how wonderful I am and I care, they can just as easily tell me how horrible I am and I’ll care. It all just feels so manipulative, whether or not it’s intended that way.
It’s why I’ve switched to giving and believing statements about what something meant. “That made it easier for me.” “That helped me understand.” “That made me feel good about myself.”
I’m trying to get out of the judging business, positive or negative.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 1:01pm
blueskies says:
‘The kind and caring sociopath’ PUH!
I think this is a really excellent discussion though.
I think that the S/P I had a relationship with believed he was kind and caring, he certainly works very hard to create the impression amongst people he knows(it only works long distance or at arms length, or for a short while of course), he uses all the right words, its a FANTASY of his, his actual real life behaviour is not caring because he doesnt GET it. He cannot get it, he can barely go through the motions. He uses the WORDS and believes his own b/s.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 1:02pm
blueskies says:
Kathy:)x
The laugh riot is that I DONT like compliments, I have NEVER been comfortable with them, not very often recieved them, and never craved them. He lavished them on me to the point of embarrassment, urged me to accept them as ‘truth’ then BAM! Turned it round as a weakness!lol!
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 1:09pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
I said that wrong. I’m trying to limit my judging to what it meant to me.
So instead of telling someone he’s an insensitive jerk, I say, “That seemed unfair to me, and it hurt me.”
I think it’s more powerful to speak out of our own experiences. And then if someone tells us that we’re wrong or there’s something wrong with us for feeling that way, it becomes clearer what they’re attempting to do. Invalidate our reality. Make us second-guess ourselves. Separate us from our own self-interest. Be right at all costs.
My next article is going to be about emotional freedom, something I keep talking about. And some of this comes down to how we talk, and what we accept in the way people talk to us.
We do not have to accept other people’s judgments about us. They don’t walk in our shoes.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 1:15pm
OxDrover says:
A new lily and Sabrina, I think we were all three posting over each other (at the same time) so I didn’t see you two’s comments until after my post came up, so will respond now.
I ran into my egg donor at the super market a few MONTHS ago and I didn’t see her as she stood watching me and waitin gfor me to get through the check out line and then she came over to me (SUPRISE) I was UN-expectedly running into her and then she tried to TRIVALIZE my fears of my P son and avoidance and NC of her by saying “Oh, Oxy, don’t beeeeee like that” and man alive I WENT OFF ON HER IN THE STORE.
I was literally shaking for 18 hours afterwards and I realized several learning points from the event. Number one, that I need to do everything I can to maintain NC so I do not shop that store on monday when she is likely to be there, and number 2, I realize that seeing her UN-expectedly is a BIGGER trigger and 3. I also realize that the nasty way I felt after the BIG DOSE OF STRESS HORMONES (literally llike I was going t puke) made me realize that I NO LONGER have hat continual level of stress hormones circulating in my blood and there was a time I did have that HYPER STATE OF STRESS 24/7….and I thought that was “normal” and now I realize that when I am triggered, it lasts only a few minutes or a few hours and the SHOCK is usually NOT as bad as when I was TRIGGERED and on HYPER ALERT all the time.
In fact, the other day i was in my lounge chair in the LR and had fallen asleep one of my friends who is an “open the door without a knock and come in friend” (notice the door is no longer locked 24/7 if I am not home alone on teh farm) came in and actually came over to where I was and I DID NOT WAKE UP!
Those of you who know me from “back when” know that that is real progress in me feeing secure and safe in my own home.
I an not “jumpy” like a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs, any more, but I can still be triggered and maybe always will be to some extent, but it “shore ain’t what’d it usta-be”
A NewLily, I am not afraid of snakes either, but having observed several very severe poison snake bites in humans I RESPECT the poison ones and like the non-poisoonous ones. We have quite a few copper heads in this area and the occasional water moccosin, so I am careful around the house and yard and don’t put my hand where I can’t see where it is going in the garden, yard, or outbuildings. If I am picking up something I make sure I know what is under it so I can do it safely.
However, I think what your husband did to you is VIOLENCE, and not a “practical” joke at all. I like a really good well thought out “practical joke” on someone that it “fits” well, but (A) only if they are a good friend and would appreciate it and (B) it does’t involve anything that would make someone injure themselves or (C) A + B and in retaliation for a practical joke they have pulled on you.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 2:14pm
endthepain says:
I love reading these posts..it helps so much….my ex S..told me my “Expectations were to high”……LMAO….I actaully fought him on it at first..then started to believe it….but no more…my expectations werent to high…I EXPECTED him to follow through on his promises/words..I EXPECTED him to show respect…I EXPECTED him to be a Partner in parenting…I expected him to work….I expected him to not drink everyday and not go to bars and text message other women…I expected him to be decent…I expected him to be a human being…..my expectations werent to HIGH…dammit…they were to LOW…I accepted his crap….and hated mtself for it…thank god the second time around I didnt put up with it for 2 long…I would simply tell him DON:T come home…he slept on couches..and when he felt like it…when he was done..or tired of where he was at..he would crawl back..with a worthless excuse…so as far as my expectations being to HIGH……for him..yes…as he wasnt human to be able to fulfill any expectations…..
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 4:01pm
ANewLily says:
Wow. I had never thought of the snake incident as violence, but it was, wasn’t it? I did realize at the time there was malice behind the prank but I also “dismissed” it as a grade school bully-boy prank to upset some little girl.
I didn’t know yet of his diagnosis or I would have recognized that disordered persons never grow up, but remain in “childhood.” At the time of this prank, the “man” was about 40 years old!
Your “take” on my story reminds me of how very important it is to have feedback on our stories for the new ways of thinking. I guess it explains why “they” try to isolate us so we can’t be privvy to such insights.
Oxy, I rejoiced as I visualized you so calm and serene in your own house when your friend came over — through unlocked door. That’s a real milestone for you and an inspiration for the rest of us.
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 4:04pm
OxDrover says:
PI Now, end the pain and Lily, etc. it seems we were all posting over each other “all at the same time together” as my son at age 3 would have said!
PI, I wasn[t sure if I was the only blogger triggered by these disordered people trolling on the blog….I have even engaged them in the past, but I will not do so any more.
One poster even “welcomed” them (the welcoming new bloggers is a tradition here at LF) and later she said (forgive me my CRS is bad today so can’t remember who) that she was anxious because she didn’t know if we were SUPPOSED to welcome them etc.
I think I was one of the people who started that “tradition” a couple of years ago because when I would go on to a blog and post and then others would “post around me” only addressing their “friends” and ignoring me I felt rather “left out” so I made a POINT to welcome EVERY new screen name I saw and over time others also started doing this and it has kind of become a “custom” or ‘tradition” here and frankly I think ti iis one of the things that makes LF VERY SPECIAL and bloggers feel comfortable here.
I remember Henry telling me how my “welcoming” him just a little while after he made his first post made him feel good about being here and I ahve had other bloggers tell me the same thing.
People come and go here, some for a little while and others for quite some time. I am at nearly 2 years (plus or minus a few months as I can’t remember exactly when I started blogging here but I know it was in the summer of 07) I had been on another “survivor” group that had problems with flaming and name calling and some “managers” who were themselves disordered I think, the site was owned by Sam Vankin (of all people, speaking of PSYCHOPATHS!) After he posted an article entitled “Jesus Christ was a Narcissist” and after being “counseled by mangagement” AGAIN about syaing “God bless you” to other bloggers (it might “offend someone” who had been religiously abused wasx the excuse they gave me for “counseling” me) I got tired of walking on egg shells and left the group and found LF and felt greatly welcomed here by posters like aloha and others and haven’t been back to the other blog at all since.
Donna runs a “good ship” here and i appreciate it and am so gratreful to her for the huge amount of work she must put in to keeping LF going. The “waves” that will keep on rippling across the ages from the small stone she has thrown into the huge pond of the universe will go on rippling for a long long time.
I am much stronger now than I think I have ever been in my life, more self assured, like myself better, and am happier and P-free for the first time….I owe 99.9% of it all to LF and the wonderful people I have met here….I do know, though, that for myself, I will never get to where I am “perfectly healed” because life is a learning process and a journey not a destination, and there will always be more to learn, more to experience, and more joy ahead! that’s why I stay here, but now, I’m not here 16 hours a day, but pop in and out between chores or other things in my life that I enjoy, but for a while, LF was my LIFE BOAT and I ate here, i slept here, and I blogged here practically 24/7.
I get cranky when a P invades “our safe space”
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Monday, 29 June 2009 @ 11:00pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Hi everyone…
i really didn’t expect my response to that post to generate the response it did…Katya, PiNow…you understood where I was coming from…Kathy, you as well…(and by the way, Kathy, I left some unrelated feedback on your blog).
Oxy, I wasn’t diagnosing or undiagnosing that poster. If he/she was diagnosed as a sociopath, maybe he/she is. My response, as Katya noted, was meant to be somewhat respectfully dubious and facetious.
I was simply stating what I think is a truism: that if, in fact, you are a kind and caring individual who never manipulates and exploits others, you are not a sociopath.
I stress: it wasn’t for me to assess the veracity (or possible manipulativeness and deception) of the poster’s self-description. Of course the poster could have been a charlatan, a provocateur, a real sociopath, or possibly–and it is possible–a misdiagnosed sociopath. I really don’t know.
Thanks!
Steve
Again, I was merely pointing out that objective descriptors such as “kind and caring” and “unmanipulative” do not conform to the sociopath’s profile. I meant nothing more than that in my response; and certainly didn’t mean to imply a failed appreciation for how sociopaths and exploiters can fool themselves and others.
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 6:18am
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
sorry about that appended p.s. it was meant to be in the body of my last post.
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 6:20am
James says:
Steve, not to get in the discussion about the “am a diagnosed sociopath”.
This entry is just a personal insight in how I work/feel about this issue here at lovefraud whenever we get (which look like more these days?) a visit from this type of poster.
Personally, If I feel like the poster “trigger” a reaction in me I stop and then shutdown any communications (entries) between this poster and myself. I do this as a defense switch because I fear I might hurt the site and post something I might enter that I would regret later on. I do this also to protect myself and the poster. Emotional triggers for me can happen so quickly that I might react too quickly causing more harm then good. This is why sometimes you will see me post and ask the poster(s) not to reply or to stop communication with me by post. One thing (if they are telling the truth) is that I am thankful for the poster being nice enough to tell others they are a sociopath. But in all honesty, whenever this does happen I take what the poster states with a grain of salt. Another trait of a person that suffer from a PD is they may be in fact a pathology liar which makes it even harder to know if the poster is being honest or not. Another question for myself is why a poster who has this disorder would even come here? It’s not like any of us can help them. This site is formatted to help victims not the abusers.
Anyway Steve these are my personally insights and feeling and wanted to just express them to the members and you.
Thanks
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 9:06am
confused2 says:
I’m sitting here thinking of S, “looking in the rear view mirror” and I’m wondering if he was a “peeping tom”. He told me a few times that he liked to go walking late at night in the summer. Which I thought was odd since he weighed close to 350 pounds and he became red in the face and out of breath when he would bend over to tie his shoes. I know he was on porn sites and was a member. I am wondering if anyone could tell me what the signs of a peeping tom are.
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 1:13pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Thank you, James…I hear everything you are saying. You make great sense. I appreciate and value your comments!
Steve
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 1:40pm
OxDrover says:
Steve,
You did NOT do anything “inappropriate” in your response to the “kind and caring” person who said they were also a “diagnosed” psychopath. You simply expressed your opinion (either literal or tongue in cheek) that they might have been “misdiagnosed” if they were indeed “kind and caring.”
The “problem” was not what you said at all….the “problem” was WITHIN ME in how I REACTED to what you said, which wasn’t even directed to me.
In the past week or so I have been on BOTH ends of this TRIGGERING THING, I was contacted (privately) a few days ago by someone who was VERY MUCH TRIGGERED AND HURT by something I said which was, just like your post, NOTHING WRONG IN THE POST, just that that person was highly triggered and hurt at reading it, which was NOT directed at them at all.
I actually didn’t realize until last night JUST HOW MUCH this comment TRIGGERED ME because I dreamed about it all night in a nightmare scenario that left me almost weak this morning.
This is all a “tempest in a tea pot” and “over nothing” EXCEPT that it TRIGGERED A LATENT problem within ME. I became upset with you, and it wasn’t anything you did “wrong” because you didn’t do anything wrong, but I
took it wrong” because of my previous trauma.
Having been on BOTH sides of teh triggering process (having triggered another blogger and having BEEN triggered) I think I am able to logically see BOTH sides of the story. Her feelings were valid though I said nothing “wrong” and my feelings were “valid” though Steve said nor did anything wrong. I think there is a BIG LESSON here for ALL OF US…that something we say in ALL INNOCENCE can be INTERPRETED by someone who is RAW (even if they themselves aren’t aware of just how raw) and TRIGGER THEM, and we, on the other hand must realize that when something someone else says TRIGGERS US, we need to STOP, LOOK AND CONSIDER what about the s tatement or post triggered US rather than getting angry and impuning motives to the other blogger.
I am VERY PROUD of the posters here on LF because in other settings there would have been a HUGE FLAP WITH MUCH FLAMING GOING ON….but instead, we have each expressed our opinions in an at least “civil” way t oward each other in spite of any triggered FEELINGS and shown respect for each other, and done some INTROSPECTION about what it was that did trigger us that were triggered.
As we learn MORE ABOUT OUTSELVES and why we are triggered, we can make those triggers LESS SCARY and hopefully desensitize ourselves to those triggers.
The nightmare I had last night where I was trying to defend myself to community members for going NC with my egg donor and the smear campaign she was going to great lengths to keep going about how I was trying to steal money from her, etc. also made me realize that there is some WORK I NEED TO DO on this aspect of my healing. I am the one who has done no wrong, told no lies, and yet, I am the one branded the greedy liar by my egg donor, and she is the poor pitifful old lady abused by her greedy daughter who has deserted her.
I know that NONE of that is true, but truth doesn’t always win the debate.
I hope that NO ONE here will stop posting their opinions in a truthful and forthrightly manner because someone(s) was/were “triggered” by a post that there was nothing in teh world wrong with. I think all of us have had plenty of “walking on egg shells” to keep from setting off the psychopaths in our lives that we are tired of doign that….but I am convinced that we can still express our own individual opinons and tell our stories in a respectful way and if it does trugger someone, we can work it out. Because someone is triggered it does NOT mean that what you said is “wrong” or “mean” it actually has nothing to do with what you say or in most cases how you say it. The “problem” is not with the poster, but with the receiver being triggered by some unresolved issue. sometimes I (we?) might like to “blame” the poster for being insiensitive or whatever word we want to use, but in the end, the REACTION we have to ANY post (even a disrespectful one) is OUR REACTION. OUR FEELINGS and no one can MAKE us “feel bad” or “be hurt” if we don’t allow it.
I can be “mean” and call you a “doo doo” but YOU ARE THE ONE WHO CHOSES TO LET THAT HURT YOU—-I have only the control over your feelings that YOU allow me to have.
What we are doing in our healing is TAKING BACK CONTROL of our feelings from others that we had given them. There was a time when my P-son saying something hateful to me broke my heart, but now those same words would bounce off like water off a tuck’s back because I no longer ALLOW his words to hurt me. I have taken back CONTROL from him. I am learning to take back total control of my reactions to other’s words or deeds as well, but it is a long process and I am still a “work in progress.”
Thank you ALL and especially Steve, for bearing with me as I make the journey toward the “ciity limits of Healing.”
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 1:53pm
learnthelesson says:
Ablessingd said
“Hmm, I am a diagnosed sociopath but I don’t find ways to manipulate people when I’m bored. In fact, I don’t do it at all.
Just because I lack in empathy and remorse doesn’t mean I wish anything bad on anyone. I’m a kind and caring person, I go out of my way for others, but I struggle with certain emotions that others readily feel.”
————————-
My first response was what Steve said… perhaps this was a misdiagnoses…My second response was and always will be something I briefly touched on with Kathleen Hawk many many months ago…. my experience was almost as if MANY OF THE THINGS MY X-TOX DID WERE NEVER FROM A PLACE OF INTENTIONAL HARM…ALTHOUGH THEY WERE WRONG…THEY WERE MORE FROM A PLACE OF SELFISHNESS AND ABSOLUTELY NO INHERENT UNDERSTANDING OF THE CONSEQUENCES TO HIS ACTIONS.
I AM MOST CERTAIN THAT THERE IS A SPECTRUM OF SOCIOPATHS..AND THAT SOME EXHIBIT ALL OF THE HORRIFIC BEHAVIORS AND INTENTIONS THAT STEVE AND SO MANY OTHERS HAVE EXPERIENCED IN HORRIFIC RELATIONSHIPS WITH SOCIOPATHS…SOME WHO HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO BOUNDARIES WITH EXPLOITATION AND MANIPULATION… BUT I EXPERIENCED A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEONE WHO TRULY BELIEVED HE WAS KIND AND GOOD IN HIS OWN WORLD (MAYBE A CASE OF UNKNOWINGLY MANIPULATING HIMSELF IF THATS POSSIBLE??) HE DISPLAYED VERY LITTLE UNDERSTANDING IN SOCIAL SKILLS (EXCEPT FOR INITIAL FEW MONTHS OF MIRRORING OR BEHAVING THE “LEARNED WAY” FROM HIS PRIOR EXPERIENCES, BUT HIS CORE, HIS BEING WAS CLUELESS ABOUT HOW TO GIVE/RECIPROCATE NORMAL HUMAN INTERPERSONAL INTERACTION BOTH SOCIALLY AND INTIMATELY. CANT EXPLAIN IT.
BUT DEAR OXY, IT IS CLEAR TO ME THAT YOUR EXPERIENCE IS WITH THE FARTHEST END OF THE SPECTRUM OF SOCIOPATHY AND I UNDERSTAND THE TRIGGERS THAT CROSS YOUR BOUNDARIES.
IMHO, SOCIOPATHY IS NOT SO BLACK AND WHITE AS OTHERS MAY CONCLUDE IT TO BE…IT IS CLEARLY WHAT THEY ARE ON ALL LEVELS OF THE SPECTRUM…A MYSTERY …IN THE LIVING AND LIFESTYLE AND CHOICES OF UNUSUAL INDIVIDUALS…
SOME INTENTIONAL CALCULATED AND THOUGHT OUT…AND FOR OTHERS ITS A LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OR INABILITY TO HAVE TRUE EMPATHY COMPASSION OR “A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EMOTIONS” THAT OTHERS HAVE….
EITHER WAY… A SOCIOPATH WHO SAYS HE IS DIAGNOSED AS SUCH HAS THE ABILITY TO SEEK AND LEARN AND CHOOSE TO GROW AS A PERSON TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY …SO THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR USING OR EMOTIONALLY ABUSING OTHERS IF YOU ARE AWARE YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT – SEEK TREATMENT. FOR OTHER SOCIOPATHS (UNDIAGNOSED OR IN DENIAL) WHO ROAM THE EARTH – THERE IS NO HOPE FOR THEM ONLY FOR US TO REMAIN NC WITH THEM!!!!!! BECAUSE THEY SEEK NO HELP/THERAPY AND BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES AND THEIR CHOICES AND UNHEALTHY WAYS OF LIVING AND BEING IN RELATIONSHIPS… NC IS LIFE CHANGING FOR THE BETTER!!!!!!!
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 4:47pm
Steve Becker, LCSW says:
Oxy, thanks for your illuminating explanation. You are describing a very complicated, sensitive experience and I salute you for the honesty and great personal insight with which you share it.
Steve
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 7:34pm
Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, it sounds like you’re doing a lot of work with this.
Here’s another thought on the topic, which may or may not be useful. When other people are triggered, there’s no question that it’s their stuff. This thing with Steve and the self-described sociopath is a great case study. We are all (me included) highly sensitive on this issue. We don’t want them around. We want this place to be a safe (as much as possible, given that it’s a public forum) place for us to mutually support each other. And a lot of us get triggered — in various ways, depending on where we are in our healing — if one shows up, or if we think one of us isn’t taking it seriously enough.
But what about if we trigger each other? By talking our own truth, and maybe being pretty adamant about it. I think it’s virtually impossible for us to not do that, if we have strong opinions. I’ve been in this situation a few times, both in blogging and in writing the articles. Something I wrote hit a vulnerable spot on someone else, and that person reacted emotionally.
I’ve been really challenged by these situations. My first reaction is kind of defensive. Why are they trying to make me wrong, and getting so forcefully emotional about it? But for me, the harder part is realizing that often there is no way to build a bridge that solves the problem. Our bases of belief are simply different. Sometimes it’s because we’re in dramatically different stages of healing, which affects the way we see the world. But sometimes it’s because we just have fundamentally different beliefs about how things work, under any circumstances. If we talk about those things, we are always going disagree.
Which eliminates all possibility of an intellectual, rational solution and brings me back to the emotional content. This person is in pain and she regards me as the source. At that point, it doesn’t really matter who’s wrong or right, since there’s no resolution there anyway. It doesn’t do any good for me to point out that she’s projecting some personal issue on me, because because she’s going to hear it as me being patronizing or non-responsive. The only piece of this that offers a possible way to connect with her and resolve this is if I recognize that she’s in pain. And she’s being brave and trusting me enough to tell to me about it, rather than crawling under the covers to suck her thumb or going off to badmouth me to someone else.
If I see this, I don’t have to do anything about it. I can shrug it off as her problem, and probably some kind of learning process for her. I can leave her to it.
Or, if I care enough, I can respect that there’s probably a reason for the feelings that’s important to her, even if it doesn’t make sense to me, and just be there with her. It’s no skin off my nose to acknowledge how she feels. It doesn’t mean I’m agreeing with anything more than that she feels that way, and that I care about the fact that she’s suffering.
I’ve learned more about mutual comfort and support on LoveFraud than I’ve learned in my entire life. Through the support I’ve received and seen given to other people. And, of course, through the ways I’ve triggered people, and the mistakes I’ve made in dealing with them. I believe in something I call “feedback from the universe.” If something I do has results I don’t want, then I try to figure out what there is to learn from that. And I’m slowly getting better at speaking from my heart, and being less of a know-it-all. It’s work, because being a know-it-all is a way I protect myself. Naturally it is the single biggest thing about me that draws fire, because all of us are sensitive about being victims of misused authority.
So, I guess that where I’m going with this is related to my last post on self-love. None of us are perfect, but all of us are lovable. All of us have important reasons for how we feel, whether or not anyone else understand them. If our friend gets afraid or angry or hurt with us, it’s happening in their world. We have to respect that. If we’re not triggered too, we can be with them, while they talk it out for themselves, be compassionate about their feelings without arguing about why they’re having them, or without thinking it’s about us.
And fortunately, most of the time, when one person is triggered, the other one isn’t. But if both are, eventually one person is going to have to postpone getting their acknowledgement and be a friend to the other person, until the other person is okay enough to return the favor. In all of it, the content of the issue is probably less important than the emotions involved.
Oxy, thanks for your insightful and thought-provoking post. I’m so sorry you’ve been through a painful situation. You’re my good and valued friend, and my heart is with you.
Kathy
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 8:52pm
justabouthealed says:
Good posts, Kathleen, your honesty is inspiring. You too Oxy….well LF posters in general too!
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 9:51pm
PInow says:
I missed you all. It was a crazy day. I Got a third formal diagnosis of PTSD. Lovely I thought, and asked “How Bad?” and she said: “Extreme”.
Perhaps, it is boredom that drives my P now to proclaim himself “Married” to an American woman he’d met in Europe and has kids with. Not only is he married to a Mexican he has not lived with in the last 3,5 years, but he is also living with his student, while doing another. Lucky for me, I have a friend, who – wait a minute, is friends with P and totally feeds him the information. Betrayal upon betrayal. I am starting to believe they write Drama out of boredom, sheer lack of purpose and real life goals. But, I never realized that the fact that he would so quickly delete me from his biography and assign my child to a totally different woman, would make me so crazed.
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 11:26pm
OxDrover says:
LTL,
I’m not sure I understand all your above post, but while I do agree with you that there are ALL levels of psychopaths, as a medical and psychological professional I DO KNOW that if you “qualify” to be “diagnosed” by a professional as ONE you have done some horrible pattern of behaviors over a long period of time not just a few days or one or two instances. HORRIBLE! MANIPULATIVE AND WITH MALICE. In fact, more psychopaths are UNdiagnosed even by the professionals they see than are diagnosed, usually only people who have a SIGNIFICANT CRIMINAL HISTORY are ever diagnosed, as psychologists and psychiatrists seem loath to “label” people PPDs or ASPDs.
There is a pretty good chance a PPD will go UNdiagnosed or UNlabeled and little if any chance that a “kind and caring” and non-manipulative person will be MIS-diagnosed.
Yes, I have been engaged with the UPPER spectrum of Ps in my family, but I have ALSO been engaged with MANY LOWER LEVEL Ps in my business and professional life, and even dated a few of the NON-physically violent ones. so my experience with Ps covers a WIDE RANGE of Ps not just the MOST VIOLENT. I have in the last year just gone NC with several low level Ps that were in my “close circle” that I tolerated for a long time—walking on egg shells around then so I didn’t set them off. NO MORE. THERE IS A NO TOLERANCE POLICY FOR Ps now with me.
I think there are people who are “clueless” about social skills and how to give and take, but that ALONE doesn’t make them a psychopath, hard-wired or otherwise. It simply makes them pitiful.
I disagree with you that “sociopathy is not black and white” because I believe it is…however on a SCALE of from “bad to worse”….anyone who will “qualify” to be clinically and legally diagnosed is a BAAAAAAD ACTOR and no two ways about it. By the time they are an adult they either is or they ain’t a P. they may be a serial killer, or they may be president of the US but either way, they are self centered, manipulating, using, abusing, etc and have NO empathy or carinig for others. Bernie Madoff didn’t kill any one, ,he just stole 50 billion bucks and left 100s of thousands of people and institutions dead broke. Is he a “white psychopath” where Ted Bundy is a “black one”? Not in MY BOOK. In my book they are BOTH A 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. both took what they wanted without any thought of the devestation they were doing to others by obtaining what they wanted, in Madoff’s case money, power and control, in Ted’s case, sex and to view suffering. It is some comfort to me that both of them will/did draw their last last breath behind prison walls. I hope Madoff lives to be 100.
As far as “levels of Ps” it is sort of like RATTLE SNAKES come in all sizes from about 6 inches to over 6 ft long, they are all poison and under the right conditions can kill a person. The little ones don’t contain as MUCH jvenom as a big one, but their poison is actually MORE deadly per cc as a big one, but a big one can strike further and give you a bigger dose of poison, but you are more likely to see him before he gets a chance to strike at you….and sometimes he will warn you with a rattle first. But a P is a P is a P is a P, and they are ALL TOXIC, and none of them are the “garter snakes” which can’t hurt you, they are all vipers.
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 11:33pm
OxDrover says:
Dear PI,
I think we posted over each other, but WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF Ps—–NEVERLAND! OZ! WONDERLAND! Where up is down and left is right, and high is low, and right is left and….oh, well, you get the idea.
I am sure many here can relate to the EXTREME PTSD, the best therapy that helped me with the worst of the PTSD was “rapid eye movement therapy” and it really DID HELP A LOT. Not sure of the why, but sure of the it HELPED! and quickly! Google it and you will get some ideas about it. It might be of help to you. It is “mainstream” therapy not off the wall stuff so isn’t experimental or anything, just not as easy to find as “talk therapy” or other kinds.
I still get triggered from time to time, but am starting to recognize when I am and not react so extremely….and “catch myself” before I go off the DEEP END COMPLETELY. In the worst of teh PTSD I was “crazy as a chit-house rat” most of the time and the sun coming up or going down could trigger me! LOL
Glad you are here, keep on putting one foot in front of the other, it does get better!
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Tuesday, 30 June 2009 @ 11:54pm
PInow says:
I don’t know if you realize that I had to change from Katya, and since I’ve been investigating so much and with such horrible discoveries I now am forced to identify myself with what I do the most of:PI. It was an EMDR counselor that diagnosed me after the first therapist turned out to be triggered by my stories and the second is still with me but does not do EMDR. So, some friends recommended her. It is very humbling to know exactly what our clients suffer from. A friend said this: PTSD is a Normal Response to a very UBnormal stress.
I could have / would have expected anything from the P, I guess. But the fact that he did not just deny me, he denied our son’s existence hurt me far worse then I was prepared for. I want to scream. yet, I have to get up and go to work, and cook and be good to kids and be with my parents who remind me that it was all my fault and then apologize and cry right along with me. It’s just too much, way too much than a human should be able to handle. In a war, you know the enemy. The Ps look and act like a friend, nothing personal: it’s what they do. OH, how much I want to talk to someone about Not without my daughter, a book and a film that came out years ago…
Anyway, Thank you, Oxy, as always, you are a wonderful support to all of us. And I agree with you about the extent of the dysfunction. In my mind, the mellows are the S and the extreme creeper like mine was is a P. Funny how many still believe him. Scary, how scary for me to even think that a physical abuse would have been easier to deal with than an emotional constant manipulation of my life. Here is to the 3,5 lost years and G-d knows how many more before I regain myself enough to fight the Ps. (Oh, I am waging a war on them as soon as I am well enough).
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Wednesday, 1 July 2009 @ 12:04am
sabrina says:
Oxy- just a question or if anyone else wants to respond- Do you think- given the “fact” that no moral compass is there for P’s- that all P’s “have it in them” to commit violent crimes, abuse, theft, and any other type crime imaginable?? Just b/c they may not have gotten to that point yet, do you believe that circumstances could easily put them at risk for such ?
I tend to think that a P could easily turn violent, or any of the above. Has anyone dealt with P’s that you believe could or would never turn criminal? You mentioned different degrees of sociopathy, is this what you were meaning by it?
I am sorry Oxy that you were so badly triggered by the post the other day. We all understand where you are coming from and I hope your dreams will be free from P’s from now on!!
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Wednesday, 1 July 2009 @ 2:20am
ErinBrockovich says:
Sabrina:
I personally think anyone is capable of anything.
I believe a S, will stop at nothing if that is what is required. They get so intent on ‘winning’ that if this is the ‘goal’……what’s going to get in their way?
If you look at Scott Peterson case…..it’s a good example.
I use him, because he is attractive, charming and someone most of us would have had over for dinner and NEVER SUSPECTED! BUT…..even as they looked for Lacy…..he was continuing the lies……affair…..never thinking in a million years anyone was on to him……he thought he would get away with it.
I say…..never discount what they are capable of doing!!! Or anyone else for that matter!
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Wednesday, 1 July 2009 @ 2:30am
witsend says:
Sabrina,
A thought provoking question for sure…..I have to say that I agree with Erin.
I think generally speaking as human beings anyone is capable of doing things they might not normally do under certain circumstance. For most of us it is CIRCUMSTANCE that would make us cross “that” line. How many times have you heard a story of the battered wife who murdered her husband/boyfriend? Do you really think this woman is a threat to society? Do you think she would have been capable of murder, if she was not beaten & emotionally abused?
My personal opinion is NO, I don’t believe she would be capable of that under any other circumstance.
Even in our society right now with the recession. People are commiting petty crimes that might not have ever stolen before in their lives. Stealing food for their family to eat.
Survival mode is a human condition that is strong within all of us. Many of us might never face what might “push us” over the edge. The difference is that the circumstance drove these people, and there is remorse.
As far as an P is concerned, because of the lack of moral compass, empathy, and regard in general for or anyone or anything……That is the big question.
I think it is a mistake to “generalize” P’s. Anymore than you can generalize any particular “group” in society. Because of the lack of empathy, it is definately something to consider that a P is more prone to violence. (and for sure capable of it)
But there again there is a broad spectrum. Some P/S/N can hold down high profile jobs and many can not keep a job. (so as much as they are the “same” they are also “different”)
My opinion is that again their circumstance & also the p’s intelligence level will often determine, how much crime, violence, etc they will commit……It is not empathy or moral judgement that would stop a P from commiting an act of violence. It would just be simply not wanting to get caught. The act “itself” of violence, or crime is without remorse, guilt, empathy.
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Wednesday, 1 July 2009 @ 9:13am
justabouthealed says:
Speaking of triggers….the whole thing with Mark Sanford has been a huge trigger for me. Too many similiarities in the email exchanges and being great distances apart, the huge difference in income, etc. etc. And it is as if every article I read that says he is truly in love with her is so painful to me. MAYBE in his case it is true, but collectively, face to face, they haven’t spend more than a few weeks in each other’s company. I spent maybe two weeks face to face, stretched out over 4 meetings. Like in my case, they were “friends”. So it stirs up my “maybe he DID love me” feelings that I’ve been way past!!!! For SOOOO long. ARGGH. I see red flags about the governor, and mine had so many, many more and multiple affairs and would adore and then dump when you least expected it. But when the media (some) go on and on about the wonderful emails I get sick to my stomach! Those are just words. How loving was it of him to put her in that situation? Mine said things like “I’m trying to breathe your molecules” when he would visit a place he knew I had been. “I look for your face every where I go” JUST WORDS. With the emotional depth of teens. I HATE THAT THIS IS SUCH A TRIGGER for me or creating PTSD symptoms. UGHHHH. Help!
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Wednesday, 1 July 2009 @ 11:16am
OxDrover says:
I agree with the “anyone can be pushed to anything” scenario, either by fear, pain or being gaslighted..I think there have been enough proofs of this with the research that has been done on how “guards” and “prisoners” will start to behave and also teh Nazi prison camps and other such “experiments.” “Man’s inhumanity to man” is a FACT in my mind and I think under the right circumstances any of us could be violent, I just think the Psychopath, without any empathy to start with is MORE PRONE to violence and I think the “public personna” such as Scot Peterson’s is a perfect example of one that “appears” normal but is in fact a MONSTER! Ted Bundy is another one. BTK is a third off the top of my head.
I think SOME Ps are very COVERT and some are OVERT not caring what you think of them.
For example, think of the P who is a “motorcycle gang member” and he strust down the street TRYING to appear DANGEROUS, and he most likely IS dangerous. Then there is Scot Peterson, COVERTLY appearing like everyone’s nice neighbor. Which is the MOST dangerous? The answer is that they are BOTH DANGEROUS, one overtly and one covertly.
Many if not most of us have dealt with the COVERT kind of psychpath who is