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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 10 – Forgiving

Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 7:46pm • My Weblog

This article talks about work we do when we are ready to work on clearing the influence of betrayals from our minds and emotional systems. It is about recovering our feelings of safety in the world and moving forward to create better and happier lives. Those of us who are still battling our betrayers, still clarifying our feelings of outrage or still developing our self-defensive skills may feel outraged by the very idea of forgiving. And so they should. Forgiving is something we do “at our leisure,” later when we have the time to think about restoring our emotional systems to a pre-warzone state. Ultimately we want to be positive, creative, optimistic people — without ever forgetting the lessons we learned in our histories. This article is about what we do, when we’re ready to put it all behind us. — Kathy

“Forgiveness is a dangerous passage.” This is a quote from an unknown source on the white board on my office. It’s been there for years and every time I think about cleaning it off, I think “oh not yet.” The temptation to forgive for the wrong reasons is something I don’t want to forget.

In this tenth article of this series on recovering from traumatic relationships, we will discuss the process of forgiving. It is a bridge between the grieving/letting go and the rebuilding phases.

Why bother?

A lot of people have a lot of opinions on forgiveness. Most religious or spiritual disciplines will tell us that forgiving is essential to our spiritual health. On a more mundane level, we may we aware that our friends and supporters are losing patience with our extended healing process, or may be pressuring us to get over it. On a more personal level, we may want to reenter the world without all this emotional baggage that makes us so hyper-conscious of potential threats that we have a hard time seeing or taking advantage of opportunities for good experiences.

In my mind, the only reason to ever consider forgiving is that we want to free out minds of the residue of anger that hangs on after we grieve and let go. There are other benefits we get out of forgiveness, but the first motivation has to be to improve the “quality of life” in our own minds. It’s a matter of our relationship with ourselves.

In addition, I believe there are a few prerequisites to really forgiving anything. The most important of them is that our suffering is fading. (That doesn’t mean that we’re not still dealing with repercussions of some sort, but that the level of pain has diminished to the point where it’s less important than our desire to get over it.)

The other one is that we have the stability and presence of mind to know that we can forgive without getting back into the situation that caused us all this pain in the first place. If we’re still attracted to that situation or others like it, we’re leapfrogging ahead to forgiving before we’ve done the preliminary work of getting angry at our betrayers, developing defensive skills, and facing the fact that there are things we just cannot fix or change.

What is NOT a good reason for forgiving is some sort of social expediency, because we have to deal with our betrayers or with other people who are not sympathetic or pressuring us to get over it. There are other ways to handle that situation.

Here are some of the things we may be thinking as we approach forgiving:

• These angry or frightened feelings don’t have any place in my life anymore. I want to move on.
• I’m ready to find more interests than this bitterness
• I want to clean up my emotional system so I become more positive and optimistic
• I’m starting to remember how I felt before all this happened, and I want to recover some of that joy of life.
• This just isn’t worth the energy I’ve been giving it

But to forgive, we have to overcome one major obstacle. Fear. Forgiving is actually part of overcoming fear. But we have to face it head on too.

Fear and forgiveness

The progress of healing involves us becoming more and more real about what happened and how we feel about it. In anger, we get closer to recognizing our fear, but our reaction is to throw things at it – blame, threats, vengeance, work on fixing things so it never happens again. In grieving and letting go, we accept the specific losses that we have endured. While that is good work, it also clarifies our vulnerability to random events or to specific threats in the world. We may work on accepting that vulnerability, along with our other losses, but it doesn’t change the fact that it exists.

And so now, our increasing awareness of the costs of our vulnerability raises a new issue. How do we live with the fear?

This question makes sense of all we’ve been through to process the trauma. We may have dabbled with fear in our processing. Asking ourselves “what if” this or that. What if no one ever loves me again? What if I am really too stupid to live? But we never sat down to really look it hard in the eye.

Because fear is an extremely uncomfortable emotion. In fact, if we look at all the so-called negative emotions, including shame and guilt, and do enough digging down, we find fear at the bottom of them. Other than love, it is the most fundamental emotion. And it is the antithesis of love or connectedness. We literally can’t feel love and fear at the same time. One will overtake the other.

Fear is designed to stop everything else until it is resolved. It generates the noises of anxiety and need for immediate relief, while blocking or compromising our ability to see into the future, our ability to fully recognize and enjoy what is around us, and our ability to take the normal risks involved in forward movement in our lives. It eats up our energy in a million ways and drives us toward behaviors that are about nothing but self-protection and relief from the mental noise.

This is why facing and acknowledging the fact that we are afraid can be such a powerfully transformative thing, all by itself. It is a form of clearing away all the intermediate structures of trauma-processing and getting down to the center of it in a totally authentic way. So we are no longer lying to ourselves or pretending. So that we are no longer trying to talk ourselves into irrational ideas about being stronger or safer than we are. So that we are finally clear about the fact that the universe whacked us and we don’t know when it will whack us again. It is out of our control.

This is tough stuff, the toughest of the entire grief process, and until we are ready for it, we can’t do it. Our minds won’t let us. We will slip and slide away into denial or bargaining or anger or another round of grieving and letting go, all the things that we know made us feel better than the stage before. And that is fine. Our minds have their own wisdom, and we face this issue when we have the structural underpinning in place to do this. It’s why the healing process is progressive.

But one way or another, when we come to think about forgiving, we’re going to run into this issue. How can I safely forgive if I really don’t know when I’m going to be facing the same thing again, or something worse? Or vice versa, how can I experience my fear if I’m relaxing my angry alert and protection systems by forgiving?

This trauma was nothing compared to the first one

The experience of trauma is built into our emotional histories. In a way, every trauma we experience is a replay of the primal trauma that every child experiences, the transition from life inside the womb to life out of it. It is the fundamental “expulsion from the Garden of Eden” which transfers us from a situation where we are fed, warmed, held, connected to our source to a new situation in which we are separate and dependent for our survival on things that are out of our control.

The developmental activities of the first four years are actually about the child navigating that separation to acquire certain basic intellectual perspectives and emotional skills necessary to healthy personality formation. It is our first experience of trauma processing. It occurs both on a macro level of gradual emotional acceptance of separation from the “source” and on a detail level of dealing with separate events that trigger fear, disappointment and uncertainty. If all goes well, we maintain steady bonds with our caretakers that allow us to ease into independence, self-soothing skills and the beginnings of empathy.

So we “know” what trauma means from a very early age. One way of describing trauma is that it is an unexpected breach of the rules we took for granted. Or the rules we depended on for our survival and sense of security in the world.

A whole series of emotional reactions to this breach are reasonable and normal. All the emotional stages we discuss in trauma processing, as well as others that we have not discussed in depth, such as feelings of betrayal, rejection or shame. If we go back to the nature of the first trauma, it makes sense that we would feel offended. One day our life is one thing; the next thing it’s another. What are we supposed to think? At minimum, it would be reasonable to think we are being unreasonably screwed with.

This brings us back to the primal argument. Because who, ultimately, is screwing with us? To cut a long discussion short, our big argument is not with any one persecutor in this world, not our parents, not our selfish lovers, not with the truck that hit us. It’s with God or the universe, or however we look at the overall intelligence that organizes this place. Because clearly that big intelligence has forgotten that we were previously important enough to have the suite at the center of the universe, and for reasons not made clear, we have been demoted to just one small, helpless life form in this place full things and life forms that clearly do not recognize our centrality.

Welcome to the first time we felt the fear of being vulnerable and alone. And to the basic human challenge of living with those feelings at the same time we experience love, trust, some kind of internal dignity, and the ability to risk moving forward with our lives.

There is no human being who has not been through this. And there is not one of us who doesn’t live with this challenge on a daily basis in some part of our consciousness.

It’s important to know this, because as we move forward with dealing with our own fear, we also know that some people have found ways of managing it more effectively than others.

The cost of doing business.

We have these bodies. They have their own intelligence and they want to survive. Our spirituality has its intelligence. Our intellect has its intelligence. Our emotional system has its intelligence. (See Daniel Goleman’s books on various forms of intelligence for wonderful discussions of this topic.) They are all integrated and mutually supportive, but the body is the instrument and the house where it all plays out, and one of the body’s primary vocabulary words is fear.

We cannot get away from this, but we can decide what we’re going to do about it. And that is where forgiving comes in.

There are a lot of dictionary definitions of forgiving, but for our purposes in this article, we are going to experiment with a new one. That is, making a decision about how much energy we want give to a certain source of fear in our lives.

This is not about minimizing the damage or our struggle to get over it. It is not about condoning other people’s bad behavior or the real dangers we face in the world.

Rather it is about recognizing something about ourselves. We have done all reasonable work to identify the problem, to protect ourselves in the future, to let go of what we have discovered is now gone, and to face our fear. We know what we are afraid of. Now, we consider a decision about reclassifying the issue as something we may or may not run into, something that is (to some degree) out of our control. We begin to consider whether or not we are served by continuing to let fear of this thing drain resources that could be spent on positive forward movement.

Forgiving is not the same as denial, because we make this decision with full awareness of our losses and our future risks. It involves no forgetting. We respect all the information we have gathered, in case we need it again. We respect all the feelings we have gone through, because they are part of the truth of this experience. We just decide to start withdrawing our energy, turning off that faucet, and shifting our attention to other things.

What forgiving is and isn’t

Forgiving is a decision we make and then gradually follow through, adapting that decision to our own comfort level. It is a decision we make from a position of power over the one thing we truly have power over, our own choices. Especially that supreme choice of where we place our attention.

Forgiving is something we do, knowing that we cannot totally control fear, because our bodies have their own agendas and they will generate fear if they feel it is necessary. So it also involves a deal with our bodies that we will listen to their fear, that we will not become airy-fairy pseudo-Buddhists who try to stuff their fear because they think it’s unfashionable. But we make a deal with our bodies that it’s better for the entire organism if we manage our fear, reducing our investments in fear about things we already know about, and saving our big extravaganzas of fear and anxiety for the surprises.

Forgiving is about trust at two levels. First, trust that certain bad things will happen. We can look at this statistically, if we’re inclined. A certain fraction of people we meet will be destructive emotional cripples. A certain fraction of things we buy will turn out to be unusable junk. A certain number of conversations with our relatives will include uninvited comments about our choices, our characters or our weight. Trusting that these things will happen eliminates the surprise factor and enables us to plan around these statistical likelihoods.

Second, forgiving is also a kind of trophy we get for doing the work and coming out the other side of the trauma processing. In that sense, it is about renewed trust in ourselves and in the universe. What was once a huge deal is now fully digested and just a learning experience attached to some unpleasant memories. We are whole again and on generally good terms with the big intelligence that runs everything.

In all of this, you’ve probably noticed how little I’ve talked about the perpetrator. And I’m sure you understand why. Because this is really something between the various forms of intelligence in ourselves, and it is something between us and the big intelligence that runs everything.

But still we need to get down some practicalities too. So here is what forgiveness is NOT:

• It is not condoning or acceptance of anything we find hurtful, unethical, uncaring or anything else that is bad for us. (We may find ourselves releasing negative feelings about something, when we come to understand why it happened, but we don’t have to. This is not ultimately about them. It is whether we’re ready to move on.)

•It is not about compartmentalizing or denial. We are not “stuffing” it or pretending it never happened. We’re not trying to convince ourselves that we haven’t just been through a battle or deluding ourselves that we’re more powerful than we are. We are just gradually shifting our attention away from it, as we feel comfortable doing so. We are gradually reclaiming our interest in other things.

• It is not a reason for re-involving ourselves with people or situations that hurt us. We don’t forgive so we can jump into that pool again. The only reason we would do that is if we have evolved past the point of being hurt by what hurt us before (something that doesn’t often happen) or if the person or the situation has gone through some kind of cosmic surgery and is now something else. Remember, forgiving comes AFTER we have learned self-protection in the angry phase and let go of whatever got us into this situation. If we forgive because we want to do the same thing all over again … well, you don’t need me to tell you what you’re volunteering for.

• Likewise, it is not a social cure. If we’re forgiving because we’re embarrassed about being such a bore, or because our bad feelings are alienating our families, or because we want to get along better with people who just don’t get it, we victimizing ourselves all over again. We’re giving away our authority over our own feelings, and trying to force ourselves to feel something we don’t, in order to be accepted. If it’s really important that we not communicate the full force of the outrage or grief we’re dealing with – like in a work situation or in court — we can do that. We can selectively choose where, when and how much we share, while we continue to work through our trauma privately. The ability to do this — letting some people in and keeping others out — is good practice in developing the skills of conditional trust.

• There is no reason that we have to forgive people to their faces or even let them know about it. In fact, if we’re really ready to stop wasting energy, we probably won’t. We don’t just stop bothering with them in our heads; we stop bothering with them in real life. We avoid engagement. If we have to spend energy on some kind of mop-up or dealing with continuing drama from their side, we handle it with an eye toward ending all of it, because we want to be done with it.

Finally, forgiving is not an all-or-nothing thing. Nor is it a carved-in-stone solution. We don’t say, “Oh, I’ve decided it’s not worth caring anymore about what he (or she) did to me, and now I have to not care about the new thing he (or she) is doing to me.” It doesn’t work that way. Forgiving is a way of allocating our own resources. If new circumstances require us to grab a sword and slay a few dragons before dinner, then we do it. After we come home and shower, we can decide whether we’re ready to forgive the loss of our afternoon, or if we need to spend more time processing that little irritation.

And if we absolutely feel like we must announce our decision to forgive to the sociopath, here’s a suggested forgiveness note:

I’ve decided not to give you any more attention. I’m not going to track you down, hire a hit man or sue you for theft or mental suffering. I’ve dealt with my losses by myself. But don’t confuse this with weakness. The next time you show up, it won’t be such a pleasant or profitable experience for you. I also advise you to you grow up, for your own sake. Not everyone is as forgiving as me. As Henry the XV said to a murderous friend, “I pardon you, but I also pardon whoever kills you.”

In the next article, we begin on the wonderful topic of becoming who we want to be.

Namaste. The wise emotional accountant in me salutes the wise emotional accountant in you.

Kathy

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written by Kathleen Hawk • Permalink •

Betty says:

Dear Kathy,

Thank you for this article. It’s where I am, but couldn’t yet put into words. I’m tied of using my energy in thoughts of the narcissist/psychopath, and I’m ready to use it to improve my life. I’d began to realize that I was keeping this connection to her in my head, and she wasn’t going away: there was Before My Degree and New Career Got Derailed by a N/P, and there was AFTER, and it’s something I had decided to make peace with, because that After is really up to me.

I wasn’t ready before because I was too angry. I needed to be angry, really rip snorting pissed off angry – it helped me find my voice, put a name to what happened, and also to what happened before in my family of origin. It was very helpful for a time but then it no longer was. I’ll use it again if I need it, but right now, I’d rather keep making peace with myself and see what I can find in life that will allow me to get on with finding my way.

Going through all this, and facing my fears, has made life pretty simple: Limited time and limited energy, so choose wisely. And at long last, that choice is about what works best for me.

(Report abusive comment)

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 4:22am

Kathleen Hawk says:

Thanks so much, Betty, for your response. I keep wanting to go back to this article, and add something more. Because it’s so important to understand that forgiving is about increasing our power over our own lives, not settling for living with pain or letting damage define who we are.

You clearly get this. We only have so many resources in time, energy, ability to focus. Deciding to use them for our own good and for the future we want is exercising our first and greatest entitlement. We own our our own lives.

Yesterday, my sister, who is doing her own healing and occasionally visits this site, told me that she was so proud of me for doing this work and talking about it. I try not to let myself be too vulnerable to compliments, because I also don’t want to be vulnerable to negative judgments, but this came from someone who knows me and sees through me. It meant a lot.

I pass it on to you. I am so proud of you for having come so far.

Namaste.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:11am

sstiles54 says:

What helped me tremendously was a class I took based on the book”Total Forgiveness” by R.T. Kendall. I got a lot of self power by realizing what total forgiveness is NOT: approval of what they did, excusing what they did, justifying what they did, pardoning what they did, forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. denying what they did, pretending we are not hurt. When I started to understand these principals, I was able to understand forgiveness involves choosing to keep no record of wrongs, refuse to punish, stop telling what they did to anyone who will listen, being merciful, being gracious, not being bitter,forgiving God & ourselves. Whether you believe in God or Karma or whatever, this class took a huge burden from my heart. It helped me to understand the feelings of anger & bitterness were perfectly natural, & I had a choice to let them consume me, or to learn how to come to terms with these feelings, & learn to live again. Along with all I learn here at LF, & all the kind loving people here, I was able to come to terms with how I feel, & get another couple steps down that healin’ road.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:28am

Me too, sstiles54. I’d be interested to know what motivated you to take the class.

For me, it was an increasing awareness that my negativity was affecting my life too much. I wasn’t just dealing with anger at other people and my sensitivity to feeling threatened by even small things. The same anger seemed to be fueling all the self-hating voices in my head. And I was beginning to remember that I used to feel more of a spiritual connection, and I wanted to see if I could get that back.

I took an online class with Fred Luskin, director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Project and author of “Forgive for Good.” He’s a great guy and the class is totally non-threatening. The site is http://www.emindful.com and professionals can get CME and CEU credits by taking it.

The course is not for people who are newly dealing with trauma. I think that Fred requires that participants be at last a year past the traumatic event.

It was really interesting to see all the different types of experiences that brought people to the class. Fred himself told a story of feeling betrayed by a friend in a way he just couldn’t get over. Compared to what I’d been through, it seemed like such a minor thing, but it was affecting his life so much that he was motivated to research how people forgive and what they get out of it.

And my experience was a lot like yours. In forgiving other people, I found that I was forgiving myself. I knew that I’d been giving myself a hard time, but I didn’t realize how much until I started to let go of all those demands that I be perfect and never make a mistake.

The course, and that ability to stop giving energy to all those self-critical voices in my mind, lead directly to one of the most important moments in my recovery. That was the day I told them all to shut up — the internalized criticisms of the sociopath and all the older voices that kept me feeling insecure and anxious. And in the relative silence, I discovered a “me” that predated all this trauma and drama, a wise, joyful, open-hearted child with good instincts and a vision of what my life was really about, who had been quietly learning and growing up while I had been rushing around dealing with my anxieties and protecting myself from monsters.

That was the real beginning of the positive phase of my recovery. I tell this story, not know if anyone else can relate to it. I don’t know how many people feel like there is another self, below or beyond all emotional static that keeps us from our true potential.

Maybe other people don’t need to find this. But I did. I needed to find a realization of myself that I could love without reservation. So “taking care of myself” wasn’t just another burden, something to add to my anxieties, but something that was natural and clear. And I could go on to develop things like true compassion, because it was a natural outgrowth of being compassionate with myself.

sstiles54, it sounds like forgiving gave you something like the same gifts, whether or not it played out in exactly the same way.

Again, if you can share anything more about what motivated you to take the class, it might be helpful for other people to know.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 6:25am

Matt says:

Kathy:

Many years ago, when I worked as a writer for one of the morning talk shows I was assigned an episode on forgiveness. There was an interesting organization in Wisconsin called “The International Forgiveness Institute.” Two of their key points were: (a) just because you forgive, does not mean you condone the wrong that was done to you; and (b) you cannot force forgiveness. It will come, if ever, only when you are ready.

In my own case I have found that I have gotten to the point I can forgive my parents. I now see that they were very damaged people themselves. I just don’t want to put any more energy in the time they have left on earth being angry at them. That doesn’t make their abuse any less acceptable. That doesn’t mean that I am not any less self-protective around them. What that means is that I have chosen to spend the time they have left on earth with them in a non-anger based emotional context.

The S, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I am still justifiably angry at him, although I am finding that the anger is lessening because it is too exhausting to live like that. That said, I still have scores to settle with him. As I told one of his creditors who I sent after him “this is just about restoring some balance to the universe.” Perhaps someday I will get to the point that I can forgive him. But, I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

BTW: I had emailed you my contact info through your weblink. I remember before all hell broke loose with my mother that you mentioned you were coming into the city. Have an ETA? Would love to get together for coffee — or a nice single malt scotch.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 9:18am

Hi Matt, it will be the 24th of this month, late afternoon or so. I will be footsore from tramping around a trade show in midtown and probably mentally blasted from BS-ing with clients, potential clients, journalists and analysts. And I will probably kiss your feet for giving me a chance to return to earth from all that stuff.

Well, okay, I won’t kiss your feet, but getting together is definitely a great idea. I’ll retrieve your e-mail, which apparently drowned in my daily deluge of spam and get back with you.

You might mentally prepare for a hard sell on the idea that you should be seeing the potential for a bestseller in all this advice your giving here. People have no idea what their rights are and what the legal obstacles are. Some straightforward education the issues you discuss here would be a valued resource, even if you couldn’t dig down into state-by-state statutes.

So that gives you about two weeks to come up with all the reasons why you can’t do it right now. We can debate.

Whew, I really know how to make myself welcome, don’t I?

Regarding the rest of your letter, I understand completely. I actually was able to more or less forgive the sociopath first, but I’m still a little shaky on my parents. Because the clear benefit from the relationship from the sociopath became apparent and reduced my pain. It’s also easier for me to feel powerful in relationship to dealing with him.

My parents are dead. I know they were damaged, and I understand why and how. But the work on undoing their toxic influence continues. I sometimes feel like I’m walking around the subbasement of my mind with a sledge hammer, finding these dysfunctional coping structures, figuring out how they’re made, and then knocking out the two-by-fours that hold them up. It’s my second job. Except for a few minor ones that are stamped with the name of my Catholic elementary school, all of them are emblazoned with the family crest, a picture of Chronos eating his children.

I’ll know my system is clear when I feel nothing but compassion for them. Right now, I might be able to deal courteously with them, if they were still alive, particularly my mother who was mostly another victim of my father. But I don’t think I’d be in the mood to protect them from information about the amount of time and energy I’m have to invest in my recovery. Especially if they made the mistake of trying to minimize the need for it, or make it about some inherent character flaw in me.

As you can hear, I’m still touchy. Not finished with the anger. But I’d like to be. As you say, it’s tiring.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 10:14am

Matt, would you please e-mail me again. I can’t find it. I may have accidentally trashed it in one of my wholesale deletions of stuff in my spam folder.

It would help if you put “Matt from Lovefraud” in the subject line.

Thanks — Kathy

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 10:51am

witsend says:

Wow, Matt I applaud you for what you are doing with your parents. I believe that you will be grateful when they are gone that you were able to “forgive” them. Forgive doesn’t mean forget…..Forgiving is just one of those things that if presented to us before we are ready, it just seems impossible to do. Because it DOES feel like to forgive someone is condoning or accepting what they have done. But it really is not that at all.

I went through this about a year before my father died. I found that in the end, had little to do with him at ALL….It was so much more about me, and after he was gone I felt so relieved that I was able to forgive him. I can’t even imagine how I might feel now, that he is gone, if I was unable to do this. My emotions when my father passed were so much easier to deal with after I had gone through the forgiveness process.

Today I am reflecting on the wedding of my oldest son on Saturday. It was a much more EMOTIONAL experience than I ever imagined it would be…..I am still very emotional and I am unsure what is triggering all of this emotion inside of me? It is so complex? Some of this emotion seems “natural” to me, my first born, ending up with his “first” love that he dated in high school. After being apart for many years and “finding” each other again and falling in love…..She is a wonderful person and I couldn’t be happier for him. The church wedding was beautiful, however I shed tears (to my dismay) during much of the wedding. Some of the tears, expected (happy tears) and some of the tears/feelings very unexpected?

My new DIL Gave me a personalized hanky that was inscribed with my name and inscribed “THANK YOU FOR RAISING YOUR SON TO BE THE MAN OF MY DREAMS”……….Well that hanky and its sentiments, I think would make any mother cry. My sweet daughter in law gave me the ultimate compliment.

However for me that “compliment” also played into my emotions of my younger son that I am raising. And for reasons I can’t really explain the complexity of my emotions on the day that really should have been ALL about my “oldest son” were all mixed up inside of me. I had so many moments on his wedding day where I could not have been more proud of him. He really is a fine young man.

My younger son who was his brothers best man had a flawless day. He was on his best behavior the entire day. His best man speech to his brother was delivered in front of 200 people with the confidence of a much older person who might have done alot of public speaking in the past. He NAILED it perfectly. It was unbelievable. He had everyone laughing in the begining and then later crying during the sentimental part.

He had asked me to print it on an index card the night before and he glanced at it & memorized it and didn’t even use the card. ALL of the rest of wedding party that had words to say to the bride and groom used their index cards! And they are also a full 10 years or more OLDER than my 16 year old son. Everyone of them was somewhat nervous, (hands shaking, clearing of the throats, eyes down etc) during their deliverance and my 16 year old was up their smiling, pausing at the right moments and giving EYE contact to the listeners. Wow I had never seen my youngest son so comfortable with an almost all adult audience. (most of whom he didn’t know,)

I was very proud of him and almost was able to question myself……What the hell am I worried about? His flawless behavior on his brothers wedding day is EXACTLY why their is no ONE in my life (as far as my friends or family) that “get it”.
I can so easily question myself when I am in the ” good moment” how his personality can be transformed from Dr Jekle to Mr Hide. And how is this even possible? And it is probably a good thing that there are a few people that recently have SEEN the other troubling side that I often see. Such as the “at risk” counscelor at school, because without someone else at least “getting it” even in much smaller doses, I swear I would have to question my sanity….Even MORE often than I do.

To any unsuspecting onlooker I had alot to be thankful for. Two fine boys. How I wish I could feel that in my heart….That he would turn out to be ok, just like his brother did….

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 1:11pm

Kathy, Lovefraud and the people who write and post here are applied daily to my heart, and the treatment is working! Chronos ate his kids at our house, too — and I finally got it that I could detest the choices my parents made while understanding that they’d grown up in just such a family, too. That’s were compassion, which is the opposite of shutting down or going grindingly bitter, came in. That stuff, as you’ve said, heals you as you choose to direct your energy to healing, and away from the constant and doomed battle for perfection.

The “me underneath” is still playing gopher : she pops her head up and shows her stuff, usually during meditation, or at moments like this, reading at Lovefraud. Then she disappears for a time. But I’m inviting her out now every day, realizing she’s always been there quietly waiting, and I honor her presence by asking anxiety to take a hike!

This is the one place in my life right now where I can talk about this stuff, which I find to be the treasure of life. NOT all that horrible stuff that happened or is happening to us, but the gifts we can share with each other and the powerful healing we can bring to our own hearts and share with the world. I’m with your sister : Thank you so much for the amazing work you’re doing here!

Witsend: People much wiser will post to you, but please accept my very best wishes, and respect for the courage you’re demonstrating in loving your scary son enough to ask the really tough questions. Allowing yourself to see painful truths about your child — it doesn’t get harder than that.

The rest of you guys : it’s each of us coming together that makes this work. I never got the real power of community ’till I came here. You guys are in my prayers, daily, and on my Things For Which I’m Thankful list at the end of each day.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 3:00pm

“NOT all that horrible stuff that happened or is happening to us…” My intention was NOT to discount in any way anyone’s life experiences or stories!

What I’d meant to convey is that for me, the real treasure in my life has been discovering healing and learning to allow it to happen.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 3:31pm

Thank you so much, Betty, for a post that went straight to my heart. As I write further down this path, the imperfectness of me will become a lot more apparent, and your post did exactly what LoveFraud posts do, encouraging me while allowing me to me human.

witsend, I feel for you and I have a son something like yours, I think. though I can’t know for sure. We’ve never been able to get a clear diagnosis on him. What is clear is that he’s highly intelligent, rises to certain occasions with a competency and creativity that’s just mindblowing, but lives too much in a kind of angry, alienated bubble. And when he gets sufficiently stressed, he can become very ugly. It doesn’t happen often now, since he’s been on anti-depressants for a few months. And he’s about 10 years older than yours, so the volcano of teenage hormones has quieted down a bit.

The problem with these kids is they are really hard to diagnose. He’s as interested as I am to get a diagnose, because he knows that he can do more with his life. But he looks sorta like this and sorta like that. His last (brief-lived) therapist wanted to go for schizo or schizo-affective disorder, and both of us rebelled at that one. He had maybe two of the symptoms, but they could be equally well applied to a long-term experience of anxiety-related depression.

And the real problem is that the alienation is kind of a feedback loop. He gets more anxious, more shy, and this is a kid with a real leadership potential. Give him a problem that intrigues him and he can do anything. Give him a group and he will stimulate and motivate them. He can write. He can fix things. He just can’t hold onto a thought long enough to do something about it, unless it’s something that fascinates him.

I got him through high school finally by getting him to a private school for kids who were supposedly emotionally disturbed, but were basically bright kids who didn’t fit into the educational system. He thrived there, tore through self-paced classes, got involved with school activities, and made friends that are still his close circle all these years later. Is it possible that your son hasn’t found a place with people like him?

I know that may sound silly, but sometimes I think there’s a big group of kids who are getting diagnosed as Aspergers, ADHD, and various types of emotional disorders who are actually differently gifted. And maybe what we’re seeing as personality or emotional problems is simply frustration and inability to find where they belong.

Or maybe that’s just my story and has nothing to do with yours. But I know that my son is angry now, a deep anger that it’s going to take some therapy to work through. And it has to do with his social logic not matching the rest of the world’s. He sometimes ask me if I think he’s a sociopath. But he’s not. If anything, he tilts toward the over-sensitive and over-concerned, but I understand why he wonders.

I wish I had something helpful to say. All I can do is wish for both our boys that they find something they succeed at, that they find meaningful.

A big hug –

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 3:44pm

housie says:

Kathy,
Better words could not be so eloquently spoken. I am there. My spirit knew when it was time to let go, and I did. I no longer wanted or needed to spend my precious time on HIM or the why’s, etc., ad nauseum. I was simply finished. Just this morning while playing Spider Solitaire I found myself facing a wave of deep grief over the lost 42 years. I let it wash over me, shed the tears, felt the feelings and moved on with my day, having felt much better for allowing myself to process. I once read something on the wall of my 12th step meeting hall – TRUST THE PROCESS – & – GIVE GOD TIME.
These have been helpful to me. I am on the other side, and have chosen not to continue dwelling on the past, and what HE did. I don’t need to. When I was still in bondage to the “Trauma-Bonding”, I couldn’t move past the addiction of feeding off of the mention of his name or finding reasons to obsess about him with others or just in my thoughts. That is why I have used LoveFraud to help me heal and then move on. I spent the time I needed to vent, and have not found it necessary to keep rehashing. For years I did that, and found it was a way to continue the addiction and not have to let go and do my griefwork. Without this safe place with caring people, I don’t know how I would have made it. I want to always be there for others who have traveled this path, but I believe moving on with my life is the kindest gift I can give myself.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 4:58pm

britneyhammer says:

I’m really mad at myself-after writing that I had 7 weeks NC with my S I got alot of good feedback…and the very next day I found out that I was going to lose my job due to something beyond my control, and i stupidly called him. We talked a long time..but I didn’t really feel any better-just started the thoughts and obsessing all over again. Of course he says he’s doing great and into recovery blah blah blah. The good news is he says he’s moving to utah with his wife-I hope it’s true-can’t believe anything.
Anyway-I initiated the NC and it was a very difficult undertaking-he called a couple times when I was away even though I had his # blocked…now I–at a weak moment -blew it! My computer was on the blink -I tried to get on this site first for help. The person I talked to doesn’t really understand as I thought she did, and did not try to stop me–said “Go ahead, I won’t think badly of you..” that’s not the point-I think badly of me. Today is DAY TWO. Yuk-I hate these thoughts about him-I know he’s an S-I know he’s dangerous, yet the obsession is there. Yes, I have “The Betrayal Bond” and read it regularly. HELP!

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:03pm

ErinBrockovich says:

Britneyhammer:
Don’t get too hard on yourself…..these are learning times….you did it, you are learning from it. No harm, no foul….everything gained!
We have to get through the pain, to learn the lessons……remember….no pain, no gain…..that seems to be the way it is when recovering from a S.
We all have weak moments, we all have made ‘the call’….we all experience the lack of enthusiasm from the S’s reactions and hear how ‘great’ they are doing. Just remember…..he hasnt’ changed, he will not change and he will always have the same acted out relationships with anyone he preys on. The good part….IT”S NOT YOU ANYMORE!!!!!
I think it’s our mind fantasy playing with us again…..your learning, your growing…..grasp that!
Stay strong…….like the drug saying goes…apply it to your S…..JUST SAY NO…..(to your fantasy thoughts).

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:12pm

KATYA says:

don’t be so hard on yourself. While they were toying with us, we had real feelings and real attachments. So, what if you slipped once? you can always go back to NC. Nothing lost. If you wish to tell the Subhuman that you apologize for interrupting his exciting life, so be it, but I think he won’t need your explanations. He probably thinks you are the crazy one anyway, so one more or less won’t make a bit of A difference. Quitting anything is hard. This one is the hardest drug to get over. I feel your pain
(wish I didn’t)

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:13pm

Housie:
“I believe moving on with my life is the kindest gift I can give myself.”

Wrap it up and put a big frilly bow on it…..you have done well!
Continue on your journey!
Well wishes~

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:16pm

Rune says:

Hello Britneyhammer: So, you were human. OK. Now you’ve reminded yourself why you don’t want to do that, and you know a little bit more about yourself — that you really DON’T want to call him.

I’ll bet you just forgot how really disordered he is, under that appearance of normalcy. Oh, well.

And now you know NOT to call that particular friend, the one who DOESN’T GET IT! If your ex was a normal person, then her advice might be OK, but in this situation we get far enough away from the S/Ps and then we start to second-guess ourselves, and tell ourselves that “it wasn’t so bad,” and “he couldn’t really be THAT . . .,” and then we are lulled into a false security and we think we can safely get back in contact.

Nope. No such thing as a safe relationship with an S/P. Their motivations have too much to do with enjoying the manipulation of others and causing harm to others.

So, that was just a tiny blip. It’s not like you jumped off ship in the middle of the ocean. And now you know a little bit more — like how deep the addiction is, and that you have work to do to replace him in your thoughts.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:18pm

Housie, you sound so good. I have to go rediscover a site I found that was kind of a mix of trauma processing, addiction recovery and mindfulness. The author talked about how we release energy when we feel our grief. I know it’s been true for me when I just cry because I’m sad, I come out of it feeling like I’ve been pressure-washed.

And I know what you mean about not wanting to keep rehashing it. I think we do that when we’re trying to figure out what’s real. When we’re past it, it hard to remember how disorienting it all was.

Anyway, I love what you wrote. Thanks for adding your voice to this chapter.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:32pm

bless all of you! i work night shift and I’m printing all of your comments out so I can take it with me when I start to beat myself up. I’m going to lie down for an hour before I get ready for work and I will take your advice in as I rest as well.
Damn him! 12 years is too long for him tp be in my life. i want to move on..sometimes I wonder, is there life after the S??????????????????????
Thanks again.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:38pm

donna1056 says:

I don’t know how to forgive what the S/N did to me. I was with hm for 3 years. He is younger than me and he arrived on the scene when I was vulnerable (newly divorced after a 17 yr marriage to a cheater/adulterer). He complimented me constantly, brought me roses, sent me cards, and told me he wanted to thank my ex-husband because if not for him, he wouldn’t have met me. I was sorely lacking in self esteem and confidence and he built it back for me in rapid time. He also told me he loved me after our 3rd time together. I didn’t see that as bad but rather that someone (other than my ex-husband) wanted me and only me. He asked me to marry him several times beginning around 2 months after we began dating. I never said yes but I did want to be married to him since he made me feel like no one else did. We started to talk about getting married about a year after we met but he said he wanted to be able to bring to the table what I was bringing to the table and that would take some time. I owned a home, had stable credit and a good job as a registered nurse.
He has no boundaries and likes to live life on the edge with gambling (which he tried to conceal/downplay when confronted). He was very sexually oriented and made me feel pure ecstacy. He had a poor track record for handling his time and money. He would not open bills or pay them and creditors were after him via mail and phone calls. He would get involved with shady characters making “deals” to try to make more money. He has an entrepreneurial flair and has owned a fw businesses over the last 15 years. All went bankrupt and his latest venture may also be headed in that direction as I understand.
He was kind, considerate and caring to me and my Mom (who lives with me). He would call her Mom and she treated him like a son. He was very charming to say the least and a handsome man as well. He seemed to never take anything seriously and would laugh at his poor choices and financial decisions and chalk it up to life.
He began shortly after we met to communicate online with other women. I don’t know why he did it and he told me he didn’t know why either. he is a Mormon and he was on a Mormon dating site as well as a site for Russian women that want to marry American men. He would send flirtatious messages to them all the while paying for memberships on these sites while his business was doing poorly. I found all of these emails about 15 months ater we first met and confronted him. He said it doesn’t mean anything and he was just looking and not intending to meet anyone. We were together every weekend either at my house or his apt. and he would tell me that he couldn’t possibly be with anyone elase because he’s always with me every weekend. We live in different states about 90 miles away from each other.
I met all of his extended family and he met mine as well. I spent many months in late 2007 trying to organize his business files and finances for him only to have him revert back to his previous disorganized state after I was gone. Since the beginning of 2009, I felt he was on a downward spiral andI would give him unsolicited business advice about how better to allocate money for his business and how to make wiser purchases.
In March 2009, I bought a new car and he also wanted a new car but is unable to buy one since he has zero credit and creditors would try to take any assets he has. he asked m to “buy a car” for him and h would give me 40K to do it. The car would need to be in my name since he can’t have anything in his name. His business is in his dad’s name. I said no that I wouldn’t buy a car even if he gave me the money since he would be the driver of the vehicle and I am the owner in another state. he then told me he would give me 30k to put toward my house mortgage and 10K to put on the car and finance the rest since I have excellent credit. I again said no. Approximately 3 weeks later he disappeard for 4 days. he went to Alabama to meet a girl he was communicating with on a Mormon dating site. He was engaged 2 weeks later and married her 3 weeks after that. he convinced her to move to his state with her 2 kids 9she is a widow).
I have been heartbroken and lost weight and cry all the time over the abrupt way he ended our relationship and seemed to discad me for another woman so quickly that he supposedly just met. he was callous when I asked him how he could do that after 3 years since I loved him with my whole heart and soul even though I knew he had numerous faults. I thought I could change him and make him straighten up and fly right. He told me that I wasn’t the girl he wanted to marry.

He has moved on and shows no remorse for what he did to me. I am trying to move on but it isimpossible for me to comes to terms for how he used me and discarded me so easily when I was unwilling to do something for him even though he didn’t say that was the reason.

I do not believe I can ever forget or forgive what he’s done to me as I am scarred for life.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:45pm

britneyhammer, honey, long, long ago in the 60s, someone once told me how to ground myself to avoid a bad acid trip. It was to repeat everything I knew about who I was, where I was, what time it was…just the facts.

So here are some facts to ground you. You are living with a lot of mixed feelings. You know he’s a wrong guy, but you also still feel connected to him. You know you can’t depend on him, but you keep wanting to depend on him. It’s really an argument between your heart and your head, and most of the time your head wins, but occasionally you’re heart does, especially when you’re feeling upset and need a “home” to go home to.

Everyone of us has been through this, and we all applaud you for going NC, even though you slipped up, and had to start again. You know you took a step backwards, but it was just a small step. It was just a telephone conversation, just a small amount of poison to get out of your system. You’ll feel stronger faster this time.

You might want to go back and read some of the earlier articles in this series. They might help you understand more about what you’re going through. You’re doing really good work. You’re stopping contact. You’re recognizing that you’re not getting what you want out of it. There’s a difference between succumbing to temptation and getting totally sucked in again. You did the small thing.

But you know that it just prolongs the pain to even talk with him. Detox is hard, but it leads to other things. Right now, you’re dealing mostly with feelings. Later on you’re going to figuring things out so fast it will take your breath away.

You’re on the path, going in the right direction. Try not to beat yourself up. We all did that too, and I know it’s almost hopeless to tell you that. But it doesn’t help, and you weren’t the bad guy here.

It does get better. Really. You’ve got a whole world of people here who will tell you that. It gets better, and your life gets better too.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 5:49pm

Donna1056, you should not be even thinking about forgiving. This article is written for people who have already been through a lot of recovery work. Forgiving is something we may do, when we get to the end of the road. When we’ve sorted out our pain, and what they did is less important to us than moving on.

Right now you are dealing with the shock and pain of betrayal. You are confused, hurt and your sense of reality is challenged. Our stories are all similar, but there are variations. And your kind of story that is one of the hardest. These are the stories of people who thought they had some kind of dependable relationship, even if it wasn’t perfect, and had it disappear on them in a kind of lightening stroke.

I don’t know if this is your first post, and if it is, welcome to LoveFraud. I’m sorry you qualify to be here, but I’m really glad you found us.

If you haven’t already done it, it would help you to read some of the articles in the archives. Just pick anything that catches you eye, and don’t worry about reading all the responses below it. You’ll see what I’m saying about all our experiences being similar. If you are not sure that you were involved with a sociopath, you’ll probably become sure as you keep reading. He sounds like one.

Getting over these relationships takes some time. If you want to know more about that process, you might find my earlier articles in this series helpful. The one other thing that would probably be the greatest gift you could give yourself right now is to buy and read a copy of “Women Who Love Sociopaths.” It will actually make you feel a little better.

Congratulations to you for not giving him the money. It undoubtedly cost you the relationship, but you’ve already figured out that he left because he couldn’t extract big sums of money from you. It was built into the way you told the story. You might not have totally accepted that as true, but it looks pretty clear to me.

Donna, something really bad happened to you. Like having an asteroid drop on your head. It wasn’t your fault. You’re not the bad guy. But you’re the one left with the bruises. And now your big job is to take care of yourself while you heal.

You’re going to get a lot of good advice here, so I’ll stop talking. I send you a big hug. You’re going to come out of this okay. Most of us feel like we’re smarter, stronger and even happier for the experience. Eventually. Not at first. But it will get better, I promise.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 6:07pm

Kathy,
In answer to your question about my taking the forgiveness class, I was driving myself crazy with all the pent up anger & bitterness in my head & heart. So many times while reading here at LF, I kept seeing the comment, “Do not let the s live rent free in your head”. That spathhole was in my head 24/7. I beat myself up constantly for being stupid enough to fall for him. I was angry at myself all the time. I just knew I had to learn how to trust & forgive myself again, so I signed up for the class at my church. I still have a stray bad thought (or nightmare) that pops into my head from time to time. It does not rule my life now.
Namaste!

Thanks, sstiles54, that’s pretty much the way it was for me too. I was tired of being so critical and judgmental, but the thing that really drove me into that class was the way being mad at him made me talk to myself.

I want to ask everyone who made this decision. I’m really curious about what brings us to this thing. We don’t have to do it, like some of the other phases of healing. We really choose this one, and in some ways, it’s counter-intuitive.

Like you I have my flashes, especially when I’m tired or stressed. I think that’s when my old abandonment issues rise, and I get mad about being alone with all these burdens. He’s the last person I wanted to be my rock, and it’s him I get mad at. But it always backfires on me, because it also includes me beating myself up for being disorganized, taking on too much work, not being smart enough to do it faster, ad nauseum. And, like you, beating myself up for ever mistaking him for someone who could actually be a partner and not just a cold-hearted user. Eventually I figure out I’ve dropped into that familiar state, and I remind myself that if I climb out of it, things get easier.

I know I’ve mentioned this in other threads, but it was a long time ago. At some point, I figured out a name for the state. And when I told my sister, who was going through her own black depression at the time, she started to laugh, and then I did, and it was the first good laugh we’d had in a long time.

It was the Lugubrious State. And for some reason I associate it with a mental picture of a lot of Nazi soldiers in some Munich beer garden, waving their beer mugs around while they sing sentimental songs about their mothers with tears rolling down their cheeks. Don’t ask me why; it’s just one of those wierd images I carry around. It matches the word Lugubrious in my mind.

Just remembering the name is still so funny to me that it can snap me out of it.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 6:26pm

James says:

“In the next article, we begin on the wonderful topic of becoming who we want to be.”

Thank you for this article and am waiting for your next one. I know these have been helpful to me when I go through my own personal healing and growth.

As for your topic and thank again from me, forgiving is part of this healing and growth we all must do but as your article states there are guidelines and some practicality to it. Just like life it’s self an issue may look simply at first but in reality it isn’t. Forgiveness I believe falls under this spectrum as well.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 9:21pm

Donna1056

Thank you for sharing your story with us. There are many articles here at LF that can help you understand the “why’s” plus all the many members some who are vet’s (veterans) who will be able and willing to assist you in your healing..

Thanks again for sharing for each story here does help yet another one see how this can happen to anyone.

Monday, 15 June 2009 @ 9:38pm

shabbychic2 says:

donna1056: Hi. I read your post, it sounds a lot like what happened to me (twice, d’oh!) but I loaned the guy a lot of money (oops, I mean gave)… it sounds like you helped him a lot, be proud of yourself that you did not loan him the money, that you were strong enough within yourself not to do that. If anybody ever asks me for money/help again my head is going to blow off. I hope you will read the articles here and stick with us and talk all this out, you don’t have to feel scarred for life, what kind of person can go out and get married just 3 weeks after meeting someone? A sociopath. Please please keep reading the articles and the posts, it has helped me more than anything else ever has in my life, this website has opened my eyes to myself and to the evil people out there who I never gave much thought about, in fact I don’t think I ever gave much thought about myself, but I do now!

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 12:58am

geminigirl says:

Dear everyone,Ive just bought online a great book, its calld”the Betrayal Bond,”-by Dr. Patrick Carnes It arrived today, and I took it with me on the train into town.So far, Im finding it very good, light bulbs flashing everywhere.Its about how you can get in avery unhealthy ,sick bond with the person who abuses you, to the point where you cant break free. It gives detailed steps as to how to do it. he warns you,-its very hard to do, but to remain in a sick relationship is death to the soul and spirit. Im almost at that point with my 2 daughters, I am angry most with myself for allowing them to abuse me for over 30 years, giving and giving, getting nothing back but more pain, more abuse. I know that I now probably face the hardest thing Ive ever had to do, no contact with my older daughter at all. She is so toxic to me, I cant stand her, she has never, ever said sorry for any of the truly vile and rotten things she has done to me. She is atotal phoney. I know if I ring her, she will find a way to shift the blame onto me, or scream at me over the phone. I just cant face her anyway, and thats a good thing.The other daughter has refused to see me for almost 17 years, and the anger , pain, grief,and frustration at not seeing her 3 kids , ever,has never gone away. I still dont know what Im supposed to have done or not done. How do I ever get over this? Thank you wonderful people for all your love and support, with your help, I CAN do this!! geminigirl.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 6:56am

Another thing that Patrick Carnes talks about in this book, is how, apparently, small monkeys are caught in java. All the natives have to do is make small bamboo cages, with struts just wide enough for the monkey to put its hand in. In the cage is luscious fresh fruit. The monkey puts its hand throught the bars of the cage, grabs the fruit. Now, wouldnt it be logical that when its captors arrive, it simply drops the fruit, takes its hand out, and runs away?, But, it doesnt. It refuses to let go of the fruit, and so, it is captured, and taken away to be sold intocaptivity,or for pet meat. The analogy is plain, we refuse to let go of out manipulative, sick, NS, the price we pay is “being sold down the river, or death, spiritual death, maybe real death if he is a batterer.Our only hope of survival is to let go. Maybe let go of everything. And try ,with our spirits help ,and gods help, to be reborn as new free spirits. WE CAN DO IT!!

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 7:06am

James, I totally agree.

I remember something I used to think when I was so hurt in the beginning, and used to talk to my ex-S in my mind. “I am not what you made me.”

It was a recurrent theme in my recovery, as I moved through all the phases. It helped drive me into anger. Because I didn’t want to be a loser. I didn’t want to be a victim. And I resented him and then my father before him for setting me up this way. And I was furious at myself, because that was always a part of it, for not being stronger, not seeing through what they were doing to me, not finding a way to survive it all as the person I wanted to be.

I talk about turning over our “don’t want” ideas to see what we do want on the other side of them. Figuring out what we really want from ourselves and life is something that evolves as we grow up and mature. And in someways, this healing process is like going through that first important personality formation process when we were tiny. At that time, we are making a huge transition from being one with the “source” to being confident that we belong here, can move forward and make decisions on our own, can comfort ourselves when we fall down and endure some pain, and always have a safe home to come home to.

That’s the successful process that ends when we’re four. Virtually all developmental processes recur over and over in our lives. They’re patterns of growth built into our psyches. And grief processing is really letting go of something important we depended upon and learning the same thing. Except as we grow up and mature, that safe home increasingly becomes ourselves and our place in the world at large.

I think — and this is only my theory — for that to happen, this thing we call forgiving has to be the end of the cycle. I’m not sure that’s the right name for it, or if what we’re forgiving isn’t really our perpetrator, but something larger and less defined. Maybe we’re deciding that ultimately it wasn’t really that important. Or maybe that it didn’t really change us in any important way. It was just a lesson. One that was hard. One that we resisted, because we didn’t want it and because we felt it took something important from us. Something we didn’t want to lose.

But in the end, as we realize that we survived it, that what’s left is much more important than what we lost, and that what we gained in learning — mostly about ourselves and the powers we never suspected we had — is more interesting and exciting than what is gone. We are less slaves to something that we thought was necessary to survival, and more free, although more responsibilities come with that freedom. There’s something in this story like those people who decide to climb really big mountains, except we didn’t decide. This mountain was forced on us, but we come back changed. Knowing more about our powers and our limits, knowing things we never anticipated knowing. But because of it, the world is a different place to us, and we are stronger, wiser, more confident, more resilient and less fearful for it.

Maybe we are people who take chances only in a very careful way. We think we take chances. We are very proud of the chances we take, and what we’ve accomplished. But really, we live with caution predominating in our characters more than an orientation toward grabbing the opportunities of life. And so we are a little naive and hopeful that someone else, maybe some big power in the sky or luck or destiny, will toss us the right thing for us. Because, for whatever reason, we’re not inclined to go out and try everything to discover what we like and the paths to our happiness.

And these relationships — which are designed and controlled by people who don’t really have our interests at heart and do not act at all like messengers from a destiny that cares about us — capture our interest and our hearts. We buy in, leap into them, thinking they look safe and good, and being grateful they showed up. Hooray, we think. We’ve been good. We’ve done all the right things. And now we’re being rewarded.

And they don’t turn out to be like that at all. They turn out to be a very large mountain, or a walk in the jungle, or a shipwreck far out of sight of land. And we have to survive. If we were more adventurous souls in the first place, with more experience in failing and getting out of it, we would probably see this whole thing differently. We wouldn’t feel so betrayed. We wouldn’t feel like these people and our destiny are out to get us in such a personal way. But because we’ve been so careful, because so much of our lives has been about making our little sacrifices to whatever power looks after our safety, we feel like we got a bad deal. But we still have to survive.

So, we go through this thing, all the steps of it, trying to ignore it, trying to bargain it into being what we want it to be, then getting mad (which is at last us tapping the resources of our real power to dig ourselves out). But that’s not the end of it. Because in getting active and real about what’s going on while we’re angry, we come face to face with something new. We are not who we thought we were. The world is not what we thought it was. And we are changed. We can’t go back to our comfortable, safe, limited, familiar little world. So part of this process is recognizing that, and letting it go. And even though we have new powers and life is probably going to be more interesting in the future, it’s sad. And we have to go through a ceremony in ourselves of letting go of what isn’t real anymore. Kiss our old selves goodbye. Give away the clothes. It’s sad, but a reasonable trade for our new muscles, our sharper vision, and the way that makes the world larger and less scary for us.

That could be enough. We could be finished right there. We have a story that has all the plot components of a good story or movie. We faced a challenge. We met it and lived through it. We move ahead as new, stronger, better, more free, more grown-up version of ourselves. And the credits run.

But at some point, some of us want to sweep us the set. There’s blood and broken crockery on the floor. All the angry graffiti we wrote on the walls when we were feeling like we were captives or plotting our revenge. And it’s just not how we want to face every day of our lives. It’s another letting go process to consciously decide to clean it up. We’re tempted to keep it all as a statement about what we’ve been through, as a kind of art to tell people who we are. But it’s really just art about something that’s over. A big battle that we won. And the rewards of this battle aren’t all those messy souvenirs. It’s something much simpler, more compact, and it’s in our bones, our attitude about life, our expanded knowledge and confidence about ourselves and the world.

We don’t need all that stuff anymore to tell us who we are. So we clean it up. And in doing that, we have one last opportunity to decide what was important, and what wasn’t. We realize that the mountain or the jungle or the shipwreck were big, bad and educational, but the really important part of it was what we did in the face of the biggest challenge of our lives. The challenge could have been anything. The meaning of it was what we found in ourselves, the resources we didn’t know we had, the discovery that we are so much more than we thought we were.

And yet, in this discovery, we also find that we’re the same. Not different in our fundamental character. Just smarter and more resourceful. In fact, by learning through this adventure, we discover more about who we really were. Because we discover we have discarded some of that old caution, burned up those old habits of making sacrifices to the powers the keep us safe, and found out that we are really more adventurous, more open, more willing to live through failure, more hungry for life than we knew. It is the same us but without the mistaken ideas that held us back.

These processes are not like a big bang. We cycle through them over and over. There are lots of triggers that set another large or small process in motion as we get stronger, more free, more willing to take chances and engage with life, and think it’s actually fun and worth the occasional failure.

But this forgiving thing serves a purpose, because it is the doorway out of the anger and the sadness. It changes our opinion about the whole thing. Gives us some perspective, but also a chance to smile again. Maybe even laugh about it. In the end it was just a lesson. And depending on how hard and painful it was, maybe a great lesson that changes our lives. In a good way.

Finally, I think a lot of us see this coming, even while we’re struggling through the earlier stages of healing. We know that we’re going to get to this. There is going to come a day that the story is over, we’ve harvested the lesson, and it actually turns out to be a good thing. There was part of me that suspected this, and it helped me moved forward through some of the scary parts. In healing from these relationships we are doing something important for ourselves. Maybe at the time, it just feels like surviving. But at the end, we realize it was something else. Something much better than that.

And the story doesn’t even end at forgiving. Once we get there, we can see a little bit more down the road, a few more gifts we get for getting through it. Because forgiving is still really about dealing with what happened to us. Now, we begin to discover what these changes actually create inside us and in our lives.

That’s the fun part.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 7:35am

Blindsided says:

Betty, Kathy, Matt et al, Thank you! I have worked very hard to forgive and get my P/S ex-wife out of my thoughts. Unfortunately, she bought a home 1 block from me when I divorced her 3 years ago. There she lives with her 4th husband (nearly 2 decades her junior) and I must drive past her home daily. I see her and the unemployed tattoo artist / drug addict that she supports; my 19 year old step-daughter with a 30 year old boyfriend trailer trash guy with bad teeth lives there also. My 14 year old step-son has watched his mother’s drug use and trashy behavior. So, the physical closeness of the situation triggers all the bad feelings. It is like an unfolding nightmare that I am forced to watch – day after day after day – which become years. And it can be crushing.

No, I cannot move away – for 100’s of reasons. I would if I could. I was shocked when my ex decided to stay in our tiny community. I now understand it was part of her sickness.

Forgiveness is good – but hard when they live 275 feet away from you.
Ken

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 9:28am

christie lee says:

Hello all…I always think that I am well on my way toward being over and done with all the anger, but then out of the clear blue sky, he comes in full force to rain on my parade. I get really mad, not so much at myself anymore (thank goodness) but at the very idea that someone who said he loved me with all his heart could do the things he did to my family and me. Of course everyone in my family has no idea why I am not over thinking about it, and want me to just get over it. The mere mention of his name or a specific event that I suddenly recall evokes anger from the people who I think should be the most understanding. So, I have Love Fraud to listen, and you all get it. When I get an eyerolling response from the people I confide in,( and I’m sorry for what I am about to say)but I still want to hire a hitman. I think I could forgive myself were it not for that one thought. And I hate to think about needing to forgive my peeps for not getting it. Love Fraud is truly the only place I can discuss my feelings, so thank you all for that…On a lighter note, I have come up out of my cave and gotten a job as a taxi driver. Step by step, the healing process continues….love to all and I don’t mean maybe.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 10:36am

Ken, I think the most important point in your letter is that you’re being triggered everyday. A new challenge to process, over and over and over.

The fact that it’s essentially the same challenge is probably meaningful in the long run, but the kind of internal will required to step back far enough to see that is huge. You really, really have to want to stop being victimized by this situation. Because the devil is in front of you every day, saying “I know I can screw with your mind.”

If any of that sounds like criticism of you, blaming the victim, believe me it’s not. You have all my sympathy. It’s hard enough to stop imagining things, when we’re trying to detox. Having it thrown in your face just makes it a thousand times harder.

But in a way, it redefines your challenge. When this becomes so repetitive and so clearly out of your control, at some you may have to face the issue of your own reactivity. Not that it’s not reasonable and warranted. But whether you want to keep participating in this ugly drama.

There are a lot of things to balance here. Can you still care about your stepchildren and yet make some internal peace with the face that you can’t rescue them from certain aspects of their lives? Can you still care about you own quality of life, your feeling of being “home” in your own town or neighborhood, while maintaining awareness that this folly is going on in your vicinity?

Surrendering to unpleasant realities is always difficult, but giving up fighting about what we can’t change often releases our energy in interesting ways. We get more creative about what is in our power to affect. We start seeing new options that simply weren’t visible, when all we saw was what we hated.

But the first step is really to decide what you want in your head.

My articles are about “inner landscape” work. It’s why they are so different from the more practical, real-world discussions here on LoveFraud. Both are important. We need to do whatever we can do in the real, material world to help ourselves and the people we love, and especially our children who depend on us.

But after that, after we’ve done what we see there is to do, the only thing to work on is the inner landscape. And we have more choices there. We may be so impressed by what’s going on outside in the real world that we don’t see it immediately. But ultimately, taking our lives back happens in our heads.

Because I’m writing so much about this right now, I have a tendency to translate what other people say to me to “where they are.” And if I had to guess where you are right now, it’s at the edge of grieving and letting go. This situation is what it is. The actors are all involved in their own dramas, which you can get upset about, but can’t affect in any way that changes it to what you want. Anger is an impulse to do something. But when you can’t do anything, there is no where to go, but grieving and letting go.

This is what your post looks like to me. And it sounds like you’re moving between grief and anger, not quite ready to give up, but getting closer.

Later, after you let go, you can think about forgiving as a mop-up function. You’re not accepting or condoning any of it. But you don’t want to keep giving energy to feelings that don’t go anywhere or accomplish anything.

None of this is about giving up love or caring. Your interest in the wellbeing of those kids survives, but it waits for an opportunity, if one ever comes, to give them some resources. There may come a time when they turn to you for encouragement, affirmation that they have a right to question the fairness of their growing up experiences, help with processing their own traumas, or something more material like a leg-up in getting started in adult life. You just don’t know, and you don’t have to know. Someday you may have an opportunity to express your concern, or you may not. But the feeling doesn’t die. It just waits inside you for an opportunity to express itself.

That’s how forgiving goes. And you’re not that far from it now.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 10:37am

christie lee, I feel for you. Your situation is something like blindsided. What’s that line from The Godfather movie about “I keep getting out, but they keep dragging me back”?

Anyway, here’s the thing. You’re not done with your anger, because you still haven’t accepted certain truths. That’s okay. You’re getting there. Every piece of evidence adds to the pile, and the lightbulb will eventually light up in your head.

I’m not sure exactly what you’re struggling with. You write “the very idea that someone who said he loved me with all his heart could do the things he did”, and that’s part of what you’re struggling with. But not all of it. There’s always a kind of mirrored reflection of being mad at ourselves for something that we’re also mad at them about. As a guess, maybe you’re mad at yourself for being taken in, for not being more careful or reacting more quickly when you first got a sign that all was not good.

These are guesses, but it’s not a guess to say that you’re not finished with your anger. There is some hard truth that you’re still resisting. It’s about him and, on its flip side, it is about you.

I can guarantee you that you’ll get through this faster if you start playing with a very simple idea. He was a bad guy. Here are a few more simple ideas. You were unlucky to run into him. You deserve better. You made a mistake that anyone could make. You don’t know everything and have to learn some things the hard way.

Eventually you’re going to settle down with these truths, or something like them. Or maybe the truths you have to settle down with are that you lost what you lost and it was the cost of the lesson. Or maybe you have to settle down with the truth that you family and friends have their own issues, and you can’t depend on them to be exactly what you want all the time.

These experiences, for all of us, are little mountains of hard truths that kick us out of our comfort zones. They force us to think about our assumptions about a lot of things.

As this point, I’m probably at the edge of being really annoying. Because even my words have that effect sometimes. Especially if anger feels more comfortable right now than surrendering. I understand that too. I have a lot of things I still get angry about, although I’m processing them out as I recognize them.

You will too. If you want to get this over with, get the learning out of it, and move on to better chapters in your life, you will.

It’s just that it takes time. The bigger the lesson, the more resistance we often have to accepting the reality that goes with it. If you really don’t want to accept that he’s a bad guy, I know exactly how you feel. It’s hard, and it’s even harder to accept that bad guys are out there and you can run into one. And somewhere in accepting that is accepting that he is totally oblivious to you, how you feel, what you’re going through. It makes us feel so small.

But we’re not small. Everyone of us has tremendous power and potential to change our own lives and do good in the world. And this whole experience is largely about learning what we’re going to allow to keep us from that. From our real potential for happiness, self-confidence and achievement.

He’s not going to do that. Not in the long run. You’re just in the middle of learning that. This sick, sad, incompetent and unattractive person is not that important in your life.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 11:10am

First, let me apologize in advance for the nature of this response; I switch from the 1st person narrative, to the 2nd person narrative, to the 3rd person narrative – in the missive below.

Christie Lee encapsulated it perfectly. You, Kathleen describe the detritus quite accurately; I realize that it is the “inner landscape” that I need to take care of. And yes, the daily triggers do not help. Like Christie Lee, it is like a sudden Tsunami or lightning bolt out of nowhere. And often, due to the small (close knit) nature of our town (population 907 people) — neighbors will remind me, often inadvertently, of the multiple traumas I experienced and the “raw” deal I got. For example, at the city hall the other day, I saw a neighbor who introduced me to his friend thusly:

“Remember I told you about the guy who’s wife went bi-polar, had a personality disorder and totally F****D her husband and family over? Well, this is that guy, this is Ken.” –or- “Ken, how are you? You know, to this day I still think of you as getting the rawest deal I have ever seen in my 75 years on this planet. Not only were you the best husband we ever saw – but we were shocked when (your ex) lost her mind and destroyed your family” On and on ad nauseum. They all mean well; and, I do try to respond and move on to the next subject. However, they are additional triggers.

In fact, when I have taken vacations away from home – the problem(s) disappear. I just spent 12 days in Costa Rica and never gave (my personal holocaust) a second thought. Consequently, I would like to envision myself as being over the grief – and on my way to forgiveness. BTW, while all of your suggestions vis a vis the step-children are heartfelt and quite nice — they will never come to fruition. My ex made the 2 kids go incommunicado from the moment we separated. She has forbade them from speaking to me (or waving hello). She stopped them from communicating with their step-sister of 10 years (my biological daughter). Even though the “girls” are older, college, students now – my step kids know that if they attempt to communicate with me (or my daughter) the repercussions will be severe. For example, 2 ½ years ago my stepdaughter wrote me a (short) email saying how much she missed me and how she wanted to just talk. When my ex learned of this email, she:

1) Took her daughter’s car away from her and traded it for 10 pounds of marijuana (as a result my step-daughter lost her part time job as she had no way to get there).

2) Stopped contributing to the child’s college tuition. This meant that my step-daughter had to quit the main University (here in Missouri) & move back into my ex-wife’s home. She is now driven (by her 30 year old boyfriend) to her job at Quick trip. From an aspiring (pre-med) student to a job that pays $7.35 per hour.

3) My ex also made her get a new email address and set it up so that any emails from me are blocked.

10 days ago my ex- wife was driving by my home, as I waved – my step-son (now 15) waved back. My ex wife grabbed his hand, forced it down to his lap and then smacked him across the face — all while driving past me at 15 mph (in our residential area). The psychologist told my ex – “…these children are going to suffer long term consequences if you use them as pawns and deny them access to their step-father of 10 years.” Her response to the psychologist? “They are my pawns to use as I like”

Or how about this one, last Monday: I walked into a local tavern where a group of friends were all talking and eating lunch with a person I had never met heretofore, “Rusty.” Upon sitting down, my friend “Marilyn” introduced me in the following way: “Rusty, this is the guy we told you about. The one whose wife was so crazy and his divorce so ugly and difficult — that it makes yours look like child’s play.” (Rusty is going through a divorce with a “Tri-polar” woman who shot him in the shoulder with a handgun and stabbed him too). So, I have become the “gold standard” for, relationship, dysfunction. I have become that guy that will make you feel a lot better — once you hear my story. In a certain sense it is nice because, after a 10 minute conversation with me, most folks going through relationship troubles feel so much better about themselves. Usually muttering things like, “Gosh, I thought I had it bad. Mine is nothing compared to what you went through!” In fact, that is precisely what Rusty told me after we compared notes. Imagine, a guy who was shot and stabbed by his wife felt that his experience was, “Nothing compared to the hell you went through.”

Please, do not mis-understand me, I appreciate and agree with every thought you convey in your, well written, letter. I can still, seriously, say that if my ex were run over by a Mack truck and killed – that I would be totally non-plussed. AND I DO NOT LIKE TO BE THAT WAY. IT IS LIKE BEING HELD HOSTAGE IN YOUR OWN MIND. Believe me, I really, really, really do not want to be victimized over and over.

These triggers are there – but I want to be bigger than that. If only I could move away…

One final analogy: Imagine a Jew that was held in a concentration camp for 5 years. He survives, only to learn that he has to construct the apartment building in which he has to live (as his home was destroyed by the Nazi’s). Not only must he build this apartment building, but 19 of his 20 neighbors are the death camp guards that he had to see every day while incarcerated. Now, imagine that he is forced to live in that apartment for the next 40 years. Knowing that the guy above him killed his parents. The guy next to him killed his children, and the guy 2 floors above raped and impregnated his wife. I feel like that Jew.
Thanks for listening and the empathy.
Ken

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 1:50pm

Blindsided: Your ex is the extreme end of the spectrum of psychopathy as you describe her, and you are making a conscious act of courage with each breath in that environment. I honor your honesty in telling your story. I am amazed that you survived the time with her, and that you survived the divorce.

We should have ways to deal with people like her, who poison the air we breathe. She is toxic for you, toxic for her children, toxic for the neighborhood, toxic for the entire town — people like this are toxic for society. And the worst of it is that we have no clear legal or societal recourse to insulate ourselves from the predations, and we have virtually no support in our recovery process.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 3:14pm

Oh, Ken. What a writer you are.

Well, I don’t know what to say. You have a terrible story. The whole world seems to be conspiring to never let it end, and worse make it the most interesting thing about you. And you can’t get away from it. It sounds like something out of Kafka or maybe Twilight Zone.

I could come up with a lot of suggestions and advice, but they wouldn’t make any difference. It’s all going to change someday. For you. For the kids. The town will find another story. She’ll find someone more interesting to torture or overdo herself to death in some way. But in the meantime, it is what it is.

The fact still remains that, from my perspective, which I hope is somewhere far, far from this whole thing — including this loony woman and this town with its elbow-in-the-ribs sense of humor — it’s still up to you to choose what you want in your life.

If it were me, I’d leave whatever I had to leave behind and move. Nothing would be worth dealing with this on a daily basis. But then, one of my life skills is exiting from unpleasant scenes, abandoning whatever life equity I have to, and recreating myself somewhere. My reputation among my friends is that I have reinvented myself more times than Madonna. I know not everyone is like that.

At the same time, the experience is Costa Rica has meaning. You can stop thinking about this and being famous as Ken the Guy with the Worst Divorce Story. The possibility exists in this world. And now you know it does.

Sometimes the hardest thing we face is to let go of our stories. Even though I’m so good at jumping ship, I’ve had my own difficulties doing that. For most of my life, I defined myself by my history. In public, I used the parts that made me look interesting or smart. In private, I justified a lot of dysfunction in my life by blaming it on my father. I wasn’t necessarily “wrong,” but like a lot of what we are discussing on this thread, these definitions named me in ways that weren’t just sexy or expedient. They also said something about my choices of who I wanted to be. Not just to me, but to other people I deal with, and to the universe as it listens to me and responds to the energy I’m putting out.

The further I get with this work, the less I want to be defined. I want to do what I want to do. I want to be happy. I want a clear mind. I want a certain amount of laughs and a certain amount of risk in every day. I want a life that maximizes my choices.

And I want that all in the context of making a living, sustaining my lifestyle, and staying healthy.

Some of these wants I could never satisfy in your life. Unless of course you’re joking with me, and every time you think about this woman or see her, you start to chuckle and sometimes absolutely fall down with unrestrained hilarity. I think, if I couldn’t get away from her, that would be my temptation. If something is going to drive me crazy, I think I’d rather do it that way.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 4:10pm

Leah says:

I can relate to blindsided’s dilema and anger though my current (emphasis on current) situation is perhaps not as bad as his as I don’t see my ex-husband himself though he does harrass me by email every six months without fail. The challenge I’m having is that I brought two of his dupes to my workplace as part-time employees several years ago. At the time I considered them friends. I understand they – like most people – are taken in by his smooth stories, pity plays, and status as a respectable member of the community.

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been advised by counsel and by a therapist who does “get it” to keep my mouth shut out of concern that as Oxy once put it – if you poke a sleeping tiger he’ll turn around and maul your child.” My case was fairly bizarre – as they all are – and had a novel element that I’m not comfortable discussing on a public forum. Arguably I came out well compared to how these cases all too often go. Yes, there was signficant financial, physical, emotional, social and professional harm. But I didn’t lose what matters most, and he is out of our lives. That said…I still feel absolutely furious that the wife of the bagman (my ex-husband’s enabler and business advisor) who handled the negotiations for the extortion (not a figure of speech) and a clown who occassionally does consulting for my ex-husband are around and that I no longer have the authority to get rid of them. I doubt my posting makes sense without the background details and given that I seem to be fairly inarticulate about these matters. So there may not be any words of wisdom. I have thought for some time about addressing matters with the wife of the other PDI, despite admonitions not to do so.

I will not be in a position to start looking for another job for two to three years. I guess it’s the old “I want closure” lament added to my anger at myself for having been such a doormat. I’d like to at least say “This was wrong.” I know there is no chance I’d obtain “justice”or recompense. But I might feel better for not lying down like a dog – yet again. The level of probable retaliation is the unknown. Psychopaths and their narcisistic enablers make a great team.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 4:30pm

Ken, apologies if that was too flippant. I’m hitting the time of day when I’m half-asleep in my chair.

Thanks for your generous sharing and for the wonderful humor in it. Nobody walks in anyone else’s shoes. There are probably a dozen good reasons why you don’t flee. And probably another dozen reasons why the rest of the town doesn’t do something about shutting down that woman’s abusive house of horrors. From this distance, she’s clearly over the line in so many ways that it seems like the children’s services people should be camping on her lawn.

And finally, there may be character-building benefits to enduring this kind of thing that I just don’t grasp. For me, endurance of unbearable circumstances is .. well, unendurable. I act out. I’ve got stiff-upper-lip types on my mother’s side, but I don’t think I inherited that gene.

So again, forgive me if I seemed insensitive or snarky. And just be glad I’m not on the premises. I’d probably be packing your bags for you, slipping you a mickey if you didn’t want to go, and shipping you to some resort town where you’d wake up under the palm trees. Just because I can hardly stand it vicariously.

And then I’d go stand in this woman’s front yard, laugh at her until she came after me with a gun, and hope I could get a police cruiser there to pick her up and throw her in the loony bin before she shot me.

You know, there really is a sitcom in this.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 4:52pm

Leah & Blindsided: I’m not sure which of your situations I would prefer, but I’m fairly certain you would not want to trade places with me. I understand what it means to be dealing with the demolition of life as we thought it should be.

I also cannot talk to the dupes of the psychopath — his smear campaign was very effective. His actions have even alienated me from my own parents. I don’t have co-workers who have ties to the P, but I don’t have any guarantee of income, because the P ensured that he completely obliterated my business and all my assets. At some point it becomes all but impossible to start over — because you have nothing to build on.

And I truly believe that no one really understands the extreme toll that these relentless, daily, moment-by-moment reminders take on the human spirit. Four years ago, before I met the P, I had a hard road in front of me, but I was strong, creative and full of hope. Compared to then — today I feel like roadkill.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:28pm

Rune, Leah, Kathy – touché’ & ditto! You folks all implied (and inferred) correctly. And no, Kathy, you are not snarky or flippant. I agree about finding the humor in all of this. I have to search very hard sometimes – but I usually find it. It is, usually, only here on LF that I (still) speak of it at such great length. To most of the “outside” world I have moved forward.

Regarding “Child Services” – and this is very important – to the “outside world” – my ex is not some raving lunatic that is drooling and smoking a bong with my step-son on the front porch. We live in a very affluent area, and, she has a job that pays well. She is quite beautiful and presents herself as if she is “regular” & “normal.”

She is smart enough and cunning enough to hide the drug dealing and every other nefarious action from authorities. When one contributor to LF wrote of her ex (a Physician) who was, “…charming and had everybody snowballed” — I screamed, “THAT IS SHERRI, EXACTLY!”

BTW, Kathy, believe me, if there was any way that I could get out of here I would. However, my situation is not so egregious that I will just walk away and live with the homeless people under a bridge. I will not give up a $400K home that I have paid a mortgage on for 15 years (today I could not give it away – much less sell it for a profit). Even though (as Rune implied) her toxicity has a “karma” like pervasiveness that permeates our entire community (and seems to cast a pall over my home and life) – it is not bad enough that I will abandon the one (and only) thing that I have left after our (financially devastating) divorce.

I feel as if you folks are like family to me. I must leave work – more later.
Ken

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:34pm

jfog1 says:

Hi everyone,

How do you forgive when there is hurt and injustice around every corner? I thought that things were beginning to turn around for me, ( foolish idea! ) when I learned that I have two days to get my house out of foreclosure. I had a brief moment when I thought that that house would be out of foreclosure and that a couple I know would buy it. I also learned that I might be able to purchase the house I built while I was in my first marriage and was a Bed and Breakfast, if I got the equity from the house now in question.
I drove four hours to get to the home that I am trying to save, I go in and find that my soon to be ex N/P stole all of the stainless appliances and some other items from the house.
I immediately call my attorney to see what can be done. I was told by his secretary to wait there in case the sheriff needed to come out to the house. That was five hours ago. I just got home and still no call or email from the attorney.
The bad news about the house that I am trying to save (besides the missing appliances, etc. ) is that the mortgage co. should have been working with me all along and didn’t because of (Mr. N/P).
The money tied up in this house is all of the savings that I have. I am back from feeling hopeful to feeling terribly depressed and helpless. Why does he keep getting away with the things that he does. Why does he keep doing things to try destroy me when all I want is to rid of him and his toxic self. I believe that he derives great pleasure out of destroying peoples lives. I hope that one day I can get to the point that I can forgive, but right now it is difficult to even contemplate.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:40pm

JaneSmith says:

Kathleen,

Great essay. I’ll probably need to read this one over again to assimilate the wisdom.

I don’t know if I can emphatically say that I have forgiven the destructive, selfish people from my past. I seem to switch back and forth, from fury to indifference when contemplating my experiences with them.

Maybe I become furious because I contemplate these people altogether. As one big lump of misery dished out to me for my entire life. When I analyze them as one diabolical entity, I am angry. And disgusted. And scornful.

But I feel the fury much, much less than the indifference. But by visiting LF and reading the personal, brave stories of survivors, that righteous fury is stirred up all over again.

I don’t consider it to be detrimental to my healing to be furious with PDIs and the tremendous pain they cause their victims. I’m concentrating that fury towards the perpetrators of the sweet folks on here, not towards my own personal destructive forces.

As I said, I am indifferent most of the time regarding the PDIs I’ve been intimate with. I literally and figuratively shrug off the negative influences they’ve had on me, confronted and accepted it for what it is and moved on.

It’s true what you wrote saying..”Welcome to the first time we felt the fear of being vulnerable and alone. And to the basic human challenge of living with those feelings at the same time we experience love, trust, some kind of internal dignity, and the ability to risk moving forward with our lives.

There is no human being who has not been through this. And there is not one of us who doesn’t live with this challenge on a daily basis in some part of our consciousness.”

See, I remind myself daily, minutely that there ain’t no way I’m exclusive in living what I’ve lived or felt what I’ve felt. That there are maybe thousands of women and men who haven’t been as fortunate as I have been. That have suffered unimaginable abuse and suffering the likes of which would cause me to curl up in a little ball in the corner, terrified and so damn small.

I know it is going to take me years to finally forgive and let go of that anger, resentment, and contempt. I’m still trying to grow up, to be a mature responsible adult and it’s obvious to me, I’m just not there yet.

I look forward to seeing who I become as I seek to enrich my mind, my heart and my essential spiritual self. Maybe then I will have finally attained that profound serenity I wish for.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:42pm

I’m sorry to hear about the your parents, Rune. That was my saving grace – that my family did stand by me. I believe that (family turning against him) was the final straw with the friend and colleague I had who did not make it. I guess it’s all relative. I seem to be quoting Oxy a lot ..But I did find some value in her suggestion some time back to another LFer to look at Man’s Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel. You may also find it of interest.

I don’t want to sound like I’m poor-meing as I do realize quite well how much worse it could have been. I’m just want the mess behind me.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:45pm

Ken,

Wow, I read your post about the people you know who introduce you to others while including your heartbreaking, traumatizing involvement with your x wife.

I consider their words to be incredibly insensitive to your pain. I would never callously discuss the personal, intimate details of a friend of mine or even an aquaintance, even if they gave me the OK sign. No way!

That behavior is simply inconsiderate, improper social etiquette. It also reveals lack of good breeding, imo.

It just seems so cruel to me.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 5:49pm

Welcome jfog1.

So sorry to hear about your situation concerning your property. Something we all learn sooner or later about these type of people is how they never and please allow me to repeat that never “play fair”. Because you do have a attorney I hope some of this lost can be recapture through the courts. We have a member Matt who know about the law being a lawyer himself. Please expect the unexpectable whenever we deal with anyone that show strong sociopathic traits. Good luck and thanks again for sharing!

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 7:03pm

Thank you James.

I have read yours and so many other horror stories on the “Love Fraud” Blog, and I feel for each and every one who has written and had to deal with these monsters. I read some and I feel guilty for even writing about my own problems as they seem small compared to everyone elses.
Still, I am glad that I have people who understand to write to and vent to, because no one can understand what it is like to be victimized by an (N/P) except those of us who have had the misfortune of being the victim.
I don’t know how much more of this I can take. I am still dealing with my first husband, who was, and still is emotionally abusive to me and our grown sons. He is a substance abuser and is a (N). I had been out of that marriage for a year when I met my (N/P) husband. Between the two of them, I feel quite defeated, and I am not easily defeated! I stayed with my first husband for 24 years trying to help him, although mostly because I did not want him or his mother to be alone with the boys.
I became so depressed toward the end when I knew that he wouldn’t stop the cocaine and drinking, and then the other women, that I didn’t care if I lived or not. Somehow I managed to get the strength to get help, and after over a year, divorce was the only option. Then, I was targeted by the man who would be my next husband. Even though I know that I was targeted, it doesn’t change what is happening.
They are emotional terrorists.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 7:59pm

Thanks for all the comments. And I wish it were different for all of us.

I need to clarify a point about what I’m writing here, and how I view my role as one of the contributors to LoveFraud.

First, none of this is what anyone is “supposed” to do. I’m describing my vision of the path of recovery. That’s all. Every station on that path has its importance, and benefits to us. If anyone doesn’t know how they can forgive, it’s not the right time for it.

Every single part of this path is about getting better at something. They’re like practicing a piece of music on the violin and piano. We practice until it is second nature, and we don’t have to practice it anymore. Then we move on to something a little more challenging.

Virtually everyone here can remember — and we have lots of evidence with the new people who come here — how hard it was to get angry. Not just hard. We couldn’t see it. We weren’t there yet.

And then we all stay with anger for a long time. There’s a reason for that — both personally and culturally. On the personal level, none of us would have gotten involved with the sociopaths if we were good at anger. Anger is the natural reaction to anything that threatens us — from our physical safety to our emotional equilibrium. It doesn’t have to be throw-the-dishes anger. It can just be as little as a red flag popping up, but it’s red for a reason and if we take these alerts seriously, we would put taking care of ourselves in front of every other consideration.

On a cultural level, we are trained to absorb abuse. I’m not going to get into a major rant here, but I could. We are taught to allow disrespectful behavior toward us. We are taught to not interfere when we see it happening to someone else. The laws are structured to protect property rights more than people. Social and religious structures tend, all too much, to blame the victims or glorify suffering. I’ll leave it there.

What we are learning here — to protect and take care of ourselves — is a kind of personal revolution. Something really meaningful, as the people who have traveled a way down the path keep saying. And part of the revolution is getting comfortable with the fact that we are allowed to be angry, and that it is a key to not only protecting ourselves, but taking care of ourselves in the future, and healing our pasts.

So if you’re still feeling angry, it means you’re not finished with feeling angry about something. Anger is not some monolithic thing that once you feel it, it’s over. And if I’m giving that impression, I’m not writing this well enough. Every single trigger for anger may come up again and again until we figure out how to resolve it.

That doesn’t mean we physically have to do something about it, though we might. It does mean that we have to recognize it as an assault on our wellbeing. And sometimes, it’s enough to acknowledge our own feelings, to say that we really hate that this happened to us and we wish it had been different. This may sound wishy-washy, but it’s a signal to the part of us that creates the anger that we got the message.

If we feel we really need to do something about it, but don’t have any ideas or options now, we can consciously put it on the shelf until an opportunity opens up. I have several things like that, situations I’m waiting for the opportunity to rectify. The truth is, as I get further down the road, I get less interested in maintaining the determination to get even. But if the day ever comes that I decide to let it go, it will be because it’s right for me, not because I’m being generous or kind.

So, please, if you’re still angry, that’s where you’re supposed to be. There’s no need to apologize or try to leave it prematurely or think that you’re “less than” in any way. You’re not. You doing good work, important work, and the only caveat I would place on that is that it’s important to pace yourself. Anger eats a lot of energy and it leaves a lot of chemical residue in your body. Just like you wouldn’t lift weights all day or run into burning houses to rescue people from the time to get up to the time you go to sleep; don’t overdo anger. People become sick with anger when they don’t balance it with restful or happy-making things in their lives.

Finally, about my role here. Donna asked become a contributor because she was interested in the spiritual undertones in my writing, and she thought it might be an interesting addition here. The path I’m describing is one that describes the inner processes that ultimately bring us to emotional freedom, true compassion, a dynamic connection with our inner God spark and a life that expresses all those qualities.

Not everyone has a vision of going so far. Which is why I say that anywhere after anger is a reasonable stopping point for processing this particular trauma. We will have more challenges in our lives. Our first responses to trauma tend to be shaped by how far we got with the last big one. If we get to grieving and letting go, it will be easier for us to jump quickly to that stage the next time we face a major challenge. So we’re changing the rest of our lives by wherever we accomplish with this one.

I’m laying out this whole path for myself, to get it down for future reference, and for anyone else who’s interested in moving on to the next thing they haven’t done yet. My words may help them visualize in a concrete fashion something that’s just floating around in their minds.

In personal development, we can typically understand a stage that is one step ahead of where we are, even if we haven’t yet gotten into it yet. Beyond that, things seem inexplicable, sometimes off-putting or just weird. This can put you and me in a peculiar position. If you look at me as a trusted person, and I’m presenting something that you cannot relate to, what are you supposed to with this? And what does it mean about your relationship with me?

Here is what I suggest. It’s the same advice I would give about dealing with a sociopath or anything else. If you don’t understand something, if you’re getting information that doesn’t make sense or confuses you, ask for a better explanation. And if that doesn’t work, walk away. You don’t have to judge it as being bad, just as not for you.

I have books and music in my house that have literally be waiting decades for me to be able to focus on them. I picked them up because I knew I would want them someday. At least a third of what I read now has been waiting a long time for my brain to get ready for it.

Any part of this path that you don’t relate to now will be waiting when you get interested in it. We all have a lot of work to do on a lot of different threads of experience. Wherever we are, whatever our vision of our best possible outcome, is right. We are made to heal and made to uncover our true potential. It’s something we can trust.

As always, I am so grateful that you read me and find anything for yourselves here. We are all together in this.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 8:47pm

My anger for me now is a monitor and a meter and something I feel at the moment. It allows me to express what I am feeling at the time. But guess what? This same anger has some deep roots. Let me explain it like this:

I get mad over some small thing like not be able to found my keys.
Then I feel/think why am I getting so annoyed over something so simple?
So I feel/think because I so stress over blank.
What can I do to lessen this stress over blank?
If I can do something then I will try too and if I can’t then I tell myself that and try to let it go for now and allow my self the freedom to deal with it later.

Okay first I had anger over something simply right?
Wrong, I was annoyed over something deeper but I wasn’t acknowledging it just yet. My anger had to be explore deeper to see the real problem and source of my irritation.

I know this is a very simple way of looking at it but it’s shows me how I must work through my anger in stages and then finally see the real problem(s) and then deal with that..

Okay now where did I put those damn keys anyway??…LOL>>

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 10:15pm

jfog1

“They are emotional terrorists.”

Couldn’t agree more and like any know terrorist cowards to the bitter end!

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 10:25pm

And terrorists are all about sowing fear to destabilize us. I’m nibbling at a Martha Stout book, “The Paranoia Switch: How Terror Rewires Our Brains and Reshapes Our Behavior–and How We Can Reclaim Our Courage.”

Calling sociopaths terrorists is a great insight. Thanks, jfog1. The link, in my mind, is what they do to our sense of belonging and how effectively they trigger feelings of abandonment. And what that does to our ability to get on with our lives or do anything else.

Tonight I was remembering a conversation with my ex-S, who bitterly complained that I didn’t keep my promise I would loss weight. I made the promise when we first got together and he indicated he would feel better about the relationship and me if I did this. I said, no problem. I’d always been able to lose weight when I put my mind to it.

But I didn’t. I couldn’t, because I couldn’t focus on it. I was too unhappy. I tried to tell him that he couldn’t withhold love until after I lost the weight. It didn’t work like that for me. If I didn’t feel loved, I couldn’t do it.

I was talking with my son about this tonight, and he said that it was like have no home to come home to. And it made me think about how I started shopping online during that relationship. He snarled about the money I was wasting (my money, but he had plans for what it was going to do for him). I said that when it boxes came in, it made me feel like someone cared about me.

Now, when I look at the exchanges, I can see the issue of abandonment and how scary all that criticism, withholding and scorn was. I wasn’t just abandoned and alone. I was living with someone who keep repeating and repeating that I was not good enough to be cared about. And, of course, acting like that too. My whole life got derailed into trying to change his mind and trying to make myself feel better.

Maybe a lot of things we do are insulation against feelings of abandonment.

Tuesday, 16 June 2009 @ 11:08pm

jfog1 and all,

I would say emotional terrorist is an apt description in many instances. One of my attorneys described my ex as a terrorist – minus the qualifier “emotional”as it was not necessary. Terrorist was and is the right term for him and his bagman.

Kathleen, I have found your writing helpful as so much has been extraordinarily accurate in describing the some of the why’s of what we have been through rather than just the what’s. Many, many months -perhaps a year – back I remember an LF participant saying
“It could have happened to anyone,” and I remember thinking “No, there is more to it.” Once in a very, very rare blue moon a shark attacks a random swimmer. More often than not, animal and human predators smell the blood in the water or go for the animal who is running slower than the rest of the herd. That was certainly true in my case. I don’t think I could have expressed that sentiment, however, without it coming across as blaming the victim – which is certainly not my position.

In any case, you’ve made some extradorinarily salient points. I have your quote “There is a world of difference in what we create in going after our wants versus trying to escape what we don’t want” taped to the wall over my desk. It is slightly ironic that the very reason I swam into the waiting jaws of my ex-husband was to escape what I didn’t want — to accept responsibility for my own life. I am in the back and forth stage of anger and starting to more actively pursue my wants.

I think the first forgiveness step for me will be forgiving myself.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 12:27am

Somehow it seems to be harder to forgive and let go of your own adult children. because they came out of your body, and are your blood and bone. part of you says, “maybe if Id tried harder, given more, loved more, sacrificed more,they woud love me” . and one of my “things’, is that I hate injustice. I want to believe that “all is for the best in the best of possible worlds” . Didnt I take an extra job, after coming home tired from teaching all day, just so they could go to camp, or go skiiing, or learn Jazz ballet? When their Dad said “Go ask your Mum if you can go,” I knew what that meant, ie, Mum pays for it? all that running them to sleep over parties, coping with their drunken teenage friends, {and feeding them}, believing their lies and excuses? This wasnt supposed to happen.Surely my reward for 18 years of bringing them up was that they at least like me, and respect me? I know now that when my ex started drinking again, and insulting and maligning me, the girls learnt to do this to me,too. Id hope theyd take my part, but ,no, they did not.And when I was badly beaten up and left, of course, I had to leave them, then aged 17 and 19, with him.{he never ever hurt them,but Im sure he poisoned their minds about me, big time!}So, when I married David, we both tried so hard to give them love and support, and always, it was thrown back in our faces. They put David through so many “tests”, and he came out of them all with flying colours. Now though, he is heart sick of them both and doesnt want to ever see them again. he sees how they put the knife into me and turn it, how they put the boot in
and kick me below the belt. “Why do you go on putting up with them?” he asks. To be honest, I now feel very little love is left for them, I think they have destroyed most of the love I had for them. I dont want to get bitter.I suppose my biggest fear is losing touch with the 3 grandkids I still have a smallbit of contact with, although Ive seen them exactly twice in7 months. I am fighting the urge to ring my older daughter. I know that she is extremely toxic to me, and that neither of my “girls” really gives a rats arse about me! Im only a cash cow to Deb, and the other one I havent seen for over 16 years. I guess if it was a business, and youd invested time, love, money and work into it for 40 years, youd expect to makea profit , maybe a nest egg,in time. Not with bringing up ingrates. It leaves you wondering, “is this it? 40 years of devotion, and all I get is a kick in the teeth! This is not meant to happen! I feel cheated, lied to ,conned, hurt,sad, angry, all of the above. When does it all get easier to accept?

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 12:28am

Leah, you wrote “I think the first forgiveness step for me will be forgiving myself.”

That’s an interesting process. Kind like it’s own therapy. At one point, I finally decided to take a really good look at what I was dealing with when I got involved with this guy. Not beating myself up about it, but just adding up the stresses, losses, various cliffhangers, etc.

We’ve talked, on and off, about how these relationships often start when we’re not quite whole, well, or getting over something major. But I didn’t realize how much trouble I was in when he showed up, until I did this.

I’m not going to go through the whole awful list, because I’ve written it here before. But when he said to me, “Why do you put up with this? You deserve better than this.” I think I was a goner then and there. And that was long before he got clearly aggressive about his intentions or I had any idea of getting involved with him.

When I looked at it, and all the terrible things that continued to escalate in the following months (to a degree, because he was stirring the pot), the huge personal losses I sustained, the fears I was living with and the responsibilities that were just beyond any one person’s capabilities, and there he was, acting like the calm, strong, port in a storm.

It’s just makes a lot of sense. I can blame myself for letting it get that bad, for not protecting myself or drawing boundary lines. But the whole mess came out of the fact that I was chronically unable to do that. It was a kind of sickness that came out of my family history, and one that I’d been living around all my life.

And I had to understand where that came from, and forgive myself for that too. Even though I didn’t know how to fix it, I could see it, and it’s influence through my whole life.

I never thought I was a bad person. But I did think that I was helpless, incompetent, unwise, disorganized, a failure in so many ways. All my life, people told me that I didn’t give myself credit for the wonderful person I was and all the amazing things I’d accomplished. I snarfed up the compliments, because I was desperate for them. But I’d secretly think they were crazy, because I couldn’t see anything but what was wrong with me.

This process of deliberately trying to understand why I did what I did, the same kind of caring observation and understanding that I would have extended to anyone else, was the first time I ever did that for me. And the results were pretty amazing. I not only let myself off the hook, but it made me kind of proud of myself. I made mistakes, but overall, I did pretty well. For such a screwed up, emotionally damaged person, I was a real success story.

And this process let me be screwed up and emotionally damaged. I wasn’t being mean or insulting myself. It was true. None of this stuff would have happened otherwise. It might sound like it would be depressing to admit that, but it actually wasn’t. It helped me realize that I wasn’t crazy to be spending all this time and energy trying to figure out what was wrong with me and fix it.

It’s really hard to turn off all that self-critical noise in our heads. Especially if we have unrealistic notions of how perfect we’re supposed to be. But for me, this process even put the noise in perspective. I figured it was just trying to take care me, residue from various teachers, whose rules about life I’d absorbed, because I was too screwed up and damaged to develop good ones of my own.

By the time I did this work, I’d already been through most of the angry phase, and I had a better sense of boundaries and personal rules to protect myself. I was already getting better. And it made me feel more kindly toward the insecure, submissive, desperate-for-approval person I was before. She had her reasons for being that way. But things were different now. We didn’t have to put an ad in the paper for a protector ever again.

Leah, I hope you have as good a time forgiving yourself as I did.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:04am

geminigirl, you wrote “Surely my reward for 18 years of bringing them up was that they at least like me, and respect me?”

I can hear the hurt in your words. And I’m sorry you’re having to go through this.

The distance between this kind of hurt and anger is a short one. I wrote in my last post about anger helping me to develop some personal boundaries and rules about what I allow in my life. I suspect you’re going to be doing the same thing.

The history is gone. We can get mad about the unfairness of it. And I think we have to do that, to determine what we want and think we deserve right now. You deserve to be treated with the same kindness, understanding and generosity you extend to other people. Anything less is stealing good from you and not returning it. Unacceptable.

In my life, if people don’t play by those rules, they get back pretty much what they’re willing to give. Or less. I don’t care who they are. Child, family, work associates, people who think they’re my friends.

The only exception I make is if someone is clearly in emotional trouble and making a real effort to work it through. I know what that’s like, how consuming it can be, and I give them some latitude. Otherwise, people are responsible for their actions, and I judge them on how they make me feel. If they make me feel bad, they are not good for me. And I don’t put anymore energy into them.

That sounds tough, I know. But it might be the best strategy with your kids. Sometimes the greatest gift we can give other people is repercussions for their behavior. It gives them a chance to consider the costs of what they’re doing. It might not turn them around immediately. It might not turn them around at all. But it’s the best chance we have to influence them. And it’s part of taking care of ourselves.

I hope you stick around and keep writing. This is a good place to sort out what you’re going through. We’ve all been through it in some form.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:19am

“I was talking with my son about this tonight, and he said that it was like have no home to come home to. And it made me think about how I started shopping online during that relationship. He snarled about the money I was wasting (my money, but he had plans for what it was going to do for him). I said that when it boxes came in, it made me feel like someone cared about me.”

Kathleen Hawk.

I remember too buying things for my self whenever I could with money always being so short because she refused to work or would work only part-time. How once I brought myself a polo shirt and she rushed over pick it up and threw it back down telling me it was to small. The shirt was fine and like how it fit me. Also how she wanted to pick out my clothes but they never fitted me or wasn’t the style I like. It was like she never knew anything about me. My likes or dislikes.

As for what your son stated, yes both the children and I never wanted to come home. I had too because I would have been accused of cheating on her if I was late getting home from work. But our children would spend as much time at friends then be home. Even when my oldest was home he would stay in his room all the time and play video games. I notice also how my youngest stay outside alot as well as I did in the summer months.

Yes they isolate others from us but they also isolate themselves from us. It’s draining and tiresome always walking on eggshells around them.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:20am

So true, James. There was so much that was draining and tiresome about them. No wonder we’re so tired and drained when we finally get away. Maybe all this work is just what it takes to build ourselves up again.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:31am

Oh my, you’re burning that midnight oil, aren’t ya? And so is the sweet and loyal James. I’m in the pacific time zone and it’s pretty darn late over here.

Anyway, read your current post to all of us. So reasuring, so comforting, non-judgmental, and supportive. But, I ask, who is offering comfort to you, dear friend?

Are we in some abstract way helping you with any residual pain you are still dealing with? Are we in any way giving to you what you so freely and lovingly give to us? Hope so. I truly do.

Yes, you’re a brilliant writer and person with an amazing, endless capacity for compassion for so many folks on here. I don’t think I speak for myself when I write that.

But you need to get some sleep, woman!…haha.

Nite-nite all….

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 3:34am

Escapee says:

Kathy (RE PART 10 HOW DO WE HEAL? Forgiving)

Thanks for your wonderful article. It has given me both clarity and perspective on where I am at in the process and helped me to think about what I want to move from and toward.

For over a year I have been stuck in the pain of loss, grief and anger (the shock in the aftermath had very far reaching effects and lingered longer than I could ever had anticipated) – dwelling constantly on the damage caused by my involvement with one particular sociopath (I no longer refer to him as ‘my’ as I never really KNEW him). Perhaps the hardest part has been the self-loathing and guilt for how I compromised all my other relationships in the confusion and emotional chaos caused by this sick sick person. It has taken me a long time to get to this point and the realisation that I had indeed ‘turned a corner’ was when I reflected that my life was rather mundane at times – things and people around me just ‘jogging along’ – but QUITE HAPPILY. What seemed like a negative frame of mind made me realise that what I was actually experiencing was consistency and peace in my life. The fact that it seemed ‘mundane’ made me realise that it just meant that I had an opportunity to create more positive activity in my daily routine. I hadn’t realised that my fear was preventing me from engaging in many of the activities I had enjoyed prior to the nightmare of being with someone who had me in ‘mental handcuffs’ – immobilising me, isolating and introvertiing me. I have thought long and hard about how I could have allowed that to happen – it made me feel weak, spineless and lacking in character. I now realise that many people use emotional manipulation of others in response to their own fears (not just sociopaths) and, distateful though it is, I am glad I am now armed with this knowledge. My initial reactions to this were of anger but gradually, little by little, I am beginning to realise it is very valuable to be able to identify the first signs of this type of behaviour in a person – stay calm but make informed choices based on the reality of what’s going on rather than the illusion that is being presented in the guise of ‘it’s only because I love/care about you so much’ (other contributors will, no doubt, be familiar with this phrase).

I know, like many people on this blog page, I still have a long way to go but it is truly wonderful – even with the financial mess a long way from being cleaned up – to feel that I am armed with some tools for ‘living’ again – I now feel ready to start forgiving myself and enjoying the truly genuine and loving people around me – good wishes to all of you who have been in the black hole of misery created by these half-formed, broken people – they are truly to be pitied, if they fleetingly cross one’s mind, as they will never know the true meaning of love, integrity, happiness, living well and harmony with others. ESCAPEE

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 4:13am

OxDrover says:

Dear Geminigirl,

Quote: “When does it get easier to accept?”

It took me 25 years after the “ingratitude” started to come to the conclusion that just like these women/men here who thought they knew their lover/husband/wife/friend I had only “Tjhought” I knew the man my sweet little boy became.

Yea, I felt cheated=—cheated out of all the dreams I had for him (obviously he did not share them) I felt cheated out of the relationship I had planned to have with my adult son, obviously, the ONLY relationship he wanted from me was to be an “orphan”—LOL

Yep, it hurts—but geminigirl, you were a good mother. good or bad mothering doesn’t make that much difference if they are DETERMINED to become psychopaths, and we all know how psychopaths treat others.

Back when I first say my kid was “going down fool’s hill” as my sterp father called it, I thought there was some point along the way he would see the lilght and turn around…..NOPE! Didn’t happen, itsn’t going to happen now. He is what he is and he is not going to change and I can’t change him, AND it is NOT MY “FAULT” that he became what he became. I wasn’t a perfect parent, but his brother didn’t make the same choices he did, ,and is not in prison for cold blooded pre-planned bloody murder.

The boy my son was is DEAD to me, the man he IS is a stranger, just another convict in a prison in Texas. I don’t know this man, I don’t want to know this man, I grieved for my dead child, but because this man is using his organs doesn’t mean this man is my son, I let my lost little boy “go” and I grieved fo rhis loss, but he is GONE and that MAN is a stranger.

Maybe looking at the adult WOMAN not as your daughter but as simply the rrecipient of an “organ transplant” from your little girl who is GONE might help you. And, in truth, they are NOT the little children we loved, they are malicious and evil incarnate, but they are NOT our children. (hugs)))

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 6:41am

Thank you,Oxdrover. Its obvious that you have been through years of pain and hell on earth to be able to get to the peaceful, accepting place you are in now. If youve been able to do this, to save your own life, then there is hope for me. God bless you, your an amazing woman!Thanks for the good advice. Ill keep on reading,blogging and learning. Thank god for you great people! love, geminigirl.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 7:16am

Yes, it is so painful, but the only way I have been able to handle it is to realize the boy and the man are NOT the same individual.

In reality, my other sons (as men) are not the same as they were as children either. We have now become more friends than parent and child. We do have the background of genetics etc but in reality ALL my “babies” are gone. sometimes I miss even the good sons as children, I can no longer hold them on my lap, in fact, they can pick ME up! LOL

I’m sorry that any parent has such an experience, like a mama chilcken hatching out a duck! They didn’t turn out to be what we expected them to be for sure! If we are lucky, they will swim away from us!

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 11:43am

Thanks Kathy for sharing that part of your story of your son with me.

I think that it is a really good thing that your son is also wanting a diagnoses and is willing to take medications to see if these might help him.

My son is like a square peg trying to fit into a round hole most of the time. He doesn’t fit in. Even with his peers. Definately not within a regular school structure. The problem as I see it though is that his thinking pattern is so different than the rest of the world (including those his age) that he seems pretty convinced that the “world” is all wrong, and he is “all right”.
He is very smart and instead of that working for him it seems to work against him. He has the attitude that he knows more and is “above” the rest of us and is “entitled” to alot more because of this.
He is not willing to try a different type of school structure because he has decided he doesn’t need school. The “rules” don’t apply to him because after all these rules are made by the school, teachers, myself etc and he feels he knows more than us anyways.
I feel that he spent most of his time in school thriving on winning power struggles with each of his teachers. He flunked each of those classes and yet I think he thinks he WON.

A letter came in the mail yesterday stating that he was in fact repeating the 10th grade next year. This letter was no shock to me, evidentaly more of a shock to him. As he disputes it. Letter also stated that he had 8 credits total and needed 10 credits to be a junior. Regardless what the letter said he told me he is in fact the 11th grade and those credits don’t matter. So even when presented in “black and white” my son still believes what he WANTS to rather than the facts of the matter.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 12:11pm

Deaar Witsend,

I am glad to see you still keeping up on LF, hope your computer is back working. I’ve been so busy here haven’t had much time to be on either.

The denial of reality is definitely part of the problem with any person, psychopathic or normal, denial of reality keeps us from fixing what is broken, because we deny it is broken.

The entitlement mentality keeps people frustrated if others don’t agree with them. It seems from your description that your son has a high level of both entitlement and denial of reality.

Having VERY SMART kids is a definite handicap, as they are as far from the “average” as the retarded kid is, and the child who is mentally challenged is given more empathy and help from the school system than the kid who is “too smart for his own good.” I sure had that problem with mine, and it is like square pegs and round holes. My one was ADHD and didn’t fit, the other one was a P and didn’t fit either—unless he wanted to snow someone. He did have friends, but he started running with the “trashy” crowd about the time he decided to be IN CONTROL and dumped his good friends because they would not have gone along with that kind of life–theft, etc. Also, his good friends were pretty close to him in IQ and so he didn’t “stand out” above them intellectually and I think he got NS from being around the dumber kids who would follow his lead because he was the smart “leader”—yea, right into prison! He felt so superior to these kids who were not as bright as he was. He always seemed to want to “stand out” in a crowd—–he got his narcissistic supply from doing that.

He was/is so darned stupid about how much he thinks he KNOWS. LOL It is really laughable how crude he has become, and how superior and elegant he THINKS he is, how SUCCESSFUL even while he sits in prison,he sees himself as a SUCCESS and his brother who is NOT in prison and has no criminal record as a “failure” DUH!

How as your other son’s wedding? did you hav ea good time?

((((hugs)))) Love Oxy

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 12:49pm

I wanted to share an experience I had last night after I wrote on this blog.
I was so angry at My (N/P) for stealing the appliances, my commercial mower, etc., and all of the emotional turmoil that he has put me and my family through, that I sat down at my computer and composed an email to send to him. It was direct and to the point. No name calling, just telling him how I felt about what he had done. I decided to read it to my 18 yr. old son who said “mom, don’t send it. He has no feelings so you will be wasting your time and only giving him more satisfaction knowing that he is still making you miserable.”
I thought about it and decided not to send it because if I did the terrorist would have won. It was very cleansing to write to him, even though he did not receive it, and I thought how amazing that my son had so much insight. He kept me from contacting that monster and made me step back and look at the situation and myself.
My son’s are truly amazing. They grew up in a very dysfunctional family with an addict for a father and a co-dependent for a mother. Their father is an educated man who has amzingly held on to an administrative position making a very good salary, hence giving him the money he needed for his cocaine habit.
Some kids would turn out like the parents, but mine chose to focus on school and music and are very successful young men. They are the joy in my life. I learn something from them everyday, and yesterday I learned a very valuable lesson.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:06pm

RE: Forgiveness and my neighbors discussing my problem. Jane, I do not have any problem with my neighbors discussing what happened to me. Many of these folks were my source of support during my nightmare. In our tiny community, what my ex did made the (Kansas City Star Newspaper) when I sued her for defamation, libel & slander — and was paid $65,000 by her (homeowners) insurer. It would be like people in L.A. not discussing the O.J. Simpson case 15 years ago. While I do not want to make this “forgiveness article” about myself, I have pasted below the very first letter that I wrote to LF in March, 2008. This was my first step toward “recovery”. I must infer that many people did not see it or remember it. So, for the edification of those who care, please find below my “orignal” letter to LF which was sent in March, 2008. If you have seen it – please ignore.

March, 2008
I apologize, in advance, for the length of this missive and any redundancies you may find. Before I begin, like so many others, I must say that finding this web site has been very helpful. I am not sure that this is the right “place” in the blog to post (for the first time) my feelings and experience. I have found that every area has a little piece of me and my story. I feel a sence of empathy and angst from most of the stuff I have read. It is a wonderful outlet.

“People do not get it”… “Rumination is not easy to get over”…”Hard learned truths”…”I cannot talk to most people about this”…”How do I forgive (& forget)” etc. –they all ring true with me.

However, I have not found one to be like mine. In fact, both of the marriage counselors that attempted the “emergency, triage, rescue” of our marriage said: “Yours is, undoubtedly, one of the very meanest and cruelest (and sad) cases we have ever dealt with.” These 2 doctors had a, combined, 60 years of marriage counseling experience between them. They were not prone to hyperbole. I realize this is not a contest – I just seek opinion and empathy and fellowship – just like everyone else. I have inferred that a majority of the contributors are women. I am a man. Also, what my spouse did to me and our 3 children was sudden — no, previous,years of psychotic behaviour. But wait…

What happened to me has made the papers in our city because of my ex-wife’s bizzare behaviour. I apologize for the length that I think is about to spew out of me. I will try to give the, “Cliff Notes” version to keep it as short as possible. I also ask that you accept what I say here at face value. It is so bizzare and freaky that I, literally, would have bet my right hand if someone would have predicted what my ex-wife did begininning in July, 2006. Even writing this is difficult. It is something out of a Franz Kafka novel.

I married “Sherri” in 1998. She had 2 children, a 4 year old boy & an 8 year old girl. I also had an 8 year old daughter and instant step siblings were created. It was a fantastic family and a fantastic marriage; I loved her and she loved me deeply. By every estimate and every opinion of,virtually, everyone — Ours was considered to be a strong, loving, giving marriage and we were best friends and lovers. She would have walked on glass for me and vice versa.. I raised her boy and girl as mine and she was step-mother to my daughter as well. The two step-sisters were inseperable and shared the same bed and went to school together for 10 years – graduating in 2007. I had brought “Sherri” into our small, affluent community. I had lived in another home here with my first spouse. I introduced her to the community and she was welcomed and became part of the community. We travelled around the world and she only had to work if she chose to. That was 25% of the time. I always earned enough to support us in a comfortable life style.

Then it all happened:
November of 2005 I had to (suddenly) begin chemo – for 52 weeks. Fortunately I had a very lucrative disability policy which allowed us to live in our beautiful home and not go bankrupt.
Sherri was also working at that time and travelling (in the company car) over a 4 state sales region. She was gone 3 to 5 days a week and never had to be my caretaker while I was on my back during chemo. She was earnng $85,000 at this time.

June of 2006 she came home at 10:00a.m., in her company car, and found me in the bathroom – vomiting from that day’s chemo treatment and announced: “I just quit my job and have met a (28 year old tatoo artist- she’s 46) at a bar 2 days ago that I love and I tried to steal $28,000 from our bank account — but they stopped me.” Something was obviously wrong.

As part of my chemo treatment, I was seeing a Psychologist and a Psychiatrist — they routinely prescribed the, anti depressants that chemo neccessitate. They also provided counseling on a weekly basis as part of my insurer’s, “Chemo Management Plan.” They had know me very well by this point and asked that I bring Sherri in to see them — immediately. After 14 visits (several with both Doctors in the same room) over a 10 day time span, Sherri was diagnosed as having the following:

“Sudden onset bi-polar – with a personality disorder, with metalogical to pathological tendencies” They suggested that, with proper medication and therapy she could, quite possibly, come back into the real world. It was not to be. She went into total denial, declared that there was nothing wrong and would not need any treatment of any kind. When told that they were advising me to divorce her as I could not fight cancer and her simultaneously, she replied, “I don’t give a F***!” A den mother and social committee volunteer! At this point I had lost 42 pounds from the chemo. At times my health was so fragile that it was really touch and go. I sure could have used her support then – but it was not be. It was the exact opposite. The battle plans of a crazed woman were launched. That what she did (in comparison to her, life long, behaviour) is so beyond normal experince I can barely describe it.

She began drinking, doing drugs and staying out all night. I would get the (3) children off to school – and she would be gone for 2 days! Remember, I was on chemo at this time! When I asked her, “Did you think you were going to quit your job, live off of my disability check and have an affair with this 28 year odl?” She answered, “Yes, yes I do.” A week later I filed for divorce.

After filing for divorce, I rented her a home 1 block away from ours so she could move there with her kids and they could finish the school year. The 28 year old boyfriend moved into her rental home that very same day! Imagine, my step-children had a complete stranger “replace” me on day one! I did not realize she would (in October, 2007) marry the 28 year old and buy the home. That is correct, she lives 1 block away with the (unemployed) tatoo artist in our tiny, gated, community. I am forced to see them daily.

2 weeks after moving out of my home, she snuck over and stole my 2 dogs. I let her take 99% of the furnishings; I was in a big, empty, house by myself. We had agreed upon separating that I would kep the dogs; she renged and announced, “I have changed my mind.”

She stopped all communication between her 2 kids and myself. I have not seen nor spoken to them in 2 years. She stopped all communication with my daughter (“Sherri” was her step-mother for 10 years)! When I told her that “Rachel” missed her and was hurt and puzzled that Sherri went incommunicado, Sherri replied, “F*** Rachel!” When the psychologist suggested that the children not be used as “Pawns” — Sherri replied, “They are my pawns to use as I like.”

But it got worse — much worse.

Shortly after separating and moving one block away, it became known that Sherri had ask her boyfriend to put a “hit” on me. Yes, she was caught (via e-mails) of hiring someone to kill me. When we went to court, the judge yawned, acted annoyed and refused to do anything other than issue a restraining order which read (in part): “Sherri shall not engage in threatening conversations nor share private information with others (regarding her husband)” That is it! Nothing more. Sherri dramatically ripped the restraining order to pieces in the, courthouse, parking lot and said to me and my attorney, “F*** you.”

Then the lies, defamation, slander and character assasination began in ernest. Over the course of the next 15 months, Sherri worked earnestly at telling every neighbor, friend or aquaintance the following:
1) Ken was diagnosed with: “Sudden onset bi-polar – with a personality disorder, with metalogical to pathological tendencies” (BTW, the psychologist predicted she might do this – claim that I had the very same mental disorder she was diagnosed as having).
2) Ken is a, Mafia, hitman (I am in the financial sevices industry).
3) She and her children had to seek shelter at the center for battered women.
4) Ken is a (CIA like) computer hacker that traced and tracked anybody’s phone calls or e-mail messages at will.
5) Ken is not on chemo, he is away at (heroin) re-hab in Phoenix Arizona.
6) She told neighbors that if they did (financial planning) business with me, that I would steal their personal identity information and purchase homes around the U.S with their credit.

Incredibly, there were a few neighbors and friends that actually believed her story. As absurd as it sounds and contrary to everything they knew about me for 15+ years — I learned that there are “friends” in this world that prefer “dirt” to the truth. To say she cleaved our small community would be an understatement.

After 6 months of this, and many letters from my attorneys asking that she cease and desisit spreading lies — we had to haul her back into court. Once again, the judge took no real action. He issued another restraining order which said (in part): “Sherri shall stop spreading lies about Ken.” That is all. He never did seem to care and had an attitude of disdain. She also tore that restraining order to shreds in the parking lot of the courthouse and said to me and my attorney, “F*** you.”

Remember, I was still on Chemo at this point, spending what ultimately turned out to be $22,000 in attorney’s bills (just for myself). I was extremely week and had neither the will nor the strength to go out and “counter” her lies.

In January 2007, I took an 18 day trip to Costa Rica. The chemo had ended 60 days earlier (it worked – I am alive and healthy). Upon returning, I had a sherriff knock on my door and hand me a document stating I had to be in court the next morning (January 19, 2007) at 8:00a.m. for an, “Emergency ex-parte stalking / abuse / restraining hearing” Sherri, in her own handwriting, went to the courthouse and swore out a complaint stating that I had come to her home on 6, different, occasions. Specifically, January 1st, 2nd, 5th, 7th, 12th and the 15th. When we went to court, my passport and airline tickets showed that I was near the equator (in Costa Rica) from December 30th (2006) to January 17th (2007). Obviously, everything that Sherri claimed was a total lie. The judge did not grant her the (stalking) order. When my attorney asked that she be held in contempt of court for blatantly lying – the judge said “No.” When my attorney’s asked that my legal fees be paid by Sherri due to her, obvious, lies and the time wasted in court — the judge said, “No.” BTW, men getting shafted in court vis a vis divorce — is par for the course in my state. In the parking lot of the courthouse she, once agan, screamed “F*** you.”

Oh, have I stated that she went completely, 100%, incommunicado since the day she moved out. She has only spoken to me once. And, as I said earlier, Sherri cut off all communication between me and the children. She also forbade her kids from speaking with my daughter — their step-sibling of a decade. That is just, plain, cruel.

The divorce was finalized in, August, 2007. But the pathological lying continued, unabated. Finally, I had no choice but to file a libel / defamation & slander lawsuit against my ex-wife — and her homeowners insurance company (under the, liability, portion) Farmers Insurance. In March of this year they paid me a large amount of money to drop the case. She also had to sign a letter allocuting to all of her lies and had to give me the two dogs back (which she had stolen 18 months earlier).

It would be so much easier if I had 10+ years of an awful marriage; this simply would have been the end of a bad thing. But, that was not the case; we had nothing but great times and true love. THAT IS WHAT MAKES THIS SO HARD. It was sudden, unexpected and so very violent in her utter silence and going incommunicado.

10 days prior to her, personality, disorder surfacing, Sheri gave me a card in which she had written the following words: “If God were sitting next to me now I would thank him for sending you to me. You have been a wonderful husband and the most perfect (step) father I could have ever wished for my kids.” This type of letter from her was quite common and I felt the same way. When we were talking to the psychologist, he asked: “Sherri, 10 days ago you wrote these words to Ken. What happened in the intervening 10 days?” She could not answer; she would just stare out of the window and say, “are we done yet?”

And all of you are correct, nobody wants to hear about this. Most people say, “…just get over it.” Or, “after 2 years, are you still talking about this shit?” Or, “I can’t believe that; there are always 3 sides to a divorce, his side, her side and the truth.”

I never got to tell ‘em my side. I never got closure.

The Doctor’s called the multiple traumas I experienced, “Shakespaerean trauma.” I guess because it was so sudden and dramatic:
1) I was extremely ill and on chemo.
2) My spouse became (mentally) ill.
3) We were forced to divorce and our family destroyed.
4) When the chemo ended – I was unemployed; my job had been eliminated.
5) My $400,000 home cracked in two pieces – literally. The dirt shifted and my home split in two. Insurance does not cover this damage and I had to come up with $25,000 for emergency repairs.
6) During this 24 month nightmare, I had 16 (yes 16) close friends, neighbors and relatives die; I was a pallbearer at 9 of the funerals.

Six, major, traumas hit over a short period of time and I survived. Both psychologists said that there was one piece of good news. I, they said, am an “extremely strong” individual. They have had patient’s suffer nervous breakdowns and become hospitalized — who had less trauma than me.
That is my story.
Ken Pallante March, 2008.

March, 2008

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:12pm

witsend, this sounds incredibly hard for you. And I think your situation is worse than mine, though there were times when my son seemed just as obstinate in refusing to deal with reality.

When I found the diagnostic criteria of “disordered thinking,” I was glad to see someone put words to this thing. But with my son, everything seems to come back to one of two things. A nervous system issue that makes him prone to massive anxiety. And a kind of learning or self-management disability that gets in the way of his handling rote or administrative work. The two seem tightly connected and no one has been able to figure out how this chicken-and-egg are connected, and how much life trauma plays into it. (Because there is plenty of trauma that has evolved from it, which is complicated by growing up with me. I have similar nervous/learning issues, and my own background which lead to a difficult childhood for him.)

I think the major difference I see between your situation and mine is that my son will try to accommodate authority, because he wants positive feedback. He sometimes acts cocky, but it’s more an attempt to draw attention to what he’s good at. He’s not a law unto himself, and he feels failure deeply. Having been through some really hard knocks when he left home to live independently, he’s interested in what will help him.

I wish I had some experience or advice to offer you. I wonder if there are support groups for parents with uncontrollable children. If there aren’t, there should be. Sharing notes about the difficulties of working with the schools, social services and even the professional diagnosticians would probably be helpful, as well as an emotional relief.

My heart is with you.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:49pm

jfog1, I love your story. My son has done the same for me. He wasn’t living with me through most of my relationship with the ex-S, but he was close enough to observe it and my difficulties afterward. He has a very sharp understand of my ex’s character.

It really helps to have someone who knows all this. I don’t lean on him, but I do occasionally ask him what he thinks. And he’s kept me from acting out of emotion, doing something I’d regret later, more than once.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 1:54pm

Blindsided

Mate (sorry I’m English!) what a story……. thought mine was crap till I read yours!

What a testament to mind over matter!

It’s that ‘oblivion’ attitude that eludes us isn’t it? That ’so what?’. Hard to believe that someone you have spent years around and building a life with can just switch off. After I found out the true nature of the cheating, lying, manipulative, controlling, womanising (yes prostitutes too) sociopath that I was involved with, he said, “it was only a few dates” – the same man who had been swearing undying love for me and our life?

You’ll never work them out! You’re not supposed to. You weren’t in it – you were just ‘useful’.

What a sad, barren landscape their minds must be.

All strength to you Ken – keep believing – good things happen to good people – eventually………… sociopaths? Who knows? They seem to get away with it – maybe our only comfort is that at least we live with a handle on reality and humanity. All things considered, I prefer to think in my time on the planet, I tried to live by a code of integrity and honour – old fashioned I know – but what else do we have if we don’t have that?

You sound like a a ‘good man’ and very brave bloke.

Nighty night.

Escapee

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 3:31pm

Ken, that’s like a bad dream. A lot of trauma, but the rest of it more or less the travails of life. Your ex-wife sounds like stories I’ve heard about LSD-induced psychosis in people who just happen to be chemically vulnerable to it. Bang, out of nowhere, you’ve got a different person and one that’s seriously mentally ill.

I don’t know how you ever can get to the kind of perspective to forgive. It’s really about trying to reduce your emotional investment in a trauma you’ve pretty much processed through. Just mop up. How do you mop up after a situation that keeps on re-traumatizing you. Maybe not as powerfully as the first shock, but you can’t ever depend on it being over.

You know a lot of my thinking is based in Buddhism. And the Buddhist would say that our attachments are the cause of our suffering. My last few articles have really been about releasing attachments that are no longer useful or good for us.

I would not presume to try to apply those ideas to your situation. I don’t know what you can let go of, in order to find some peace. And it sounds like you have resources in your life, in terms of personal support and hopefully some financial stability. In some ways, this is an annoyance, but a big one, like a two-ton mosquito trying to take a bite out of you whenever it gets the notion. You can’t really afford to stop paying attention to it, and every time you do, it reopens old wounds. This is really tough. I don’t have any simple wisdom to bring here.

It sounds like you’ve gotten good advice, and you’re dealing with it as rationally as you can. But it’s a kind of prison. An affliction that you can’t escape.

I’ve written here before that I had several overtures from connected people who offered to “take care of” my ex. Though there were times I wished he would disappear in a puff of smoke, I wasn’t tempted. First, because I knew that, once beholden to these people, I’d never get them out of my life. But more, because I didn’t want to live with the knowledge that I’d done that.

Later I found a Machiavellian streak in myself to deal with him after the relationship ended. I didn’t have anything like the challenges a lot of people do here. I needed to keep him away from me, and ensure he never got entry again in my spheres of activity. It requires some effort to be that like, at least for me. But it was important enough to me that I started fighting fire with fire. It didn’t make me hate myself, but I had to keep track of it. Question myself constantly about the end justifying the means, and not get too enamored of myself as a sharp operator. It’s not who I want to be, though it was nice to know I can do it, if the need arises.

I truly hope that things change for you.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 3:39pm

Escapee, thanks for dropping in. It sounds like you’ve been through your own hell, and have some perspective on it.

I hope you write more. You’ll find a lot of support here, and it’s also good to hear your views.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 3:46pm

Kathy where might I find out more about the diagnostic criteria for “disordered thinking”? I did a google search. And found alot of “different” opinions and information. One site had alot of information that made alot of sense to me. However the next site contained information that seemed as if it contained information about something of a completely different nature.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 4:43pm

Blindsided: I am glad you reposted your story. Jeez, you are the miracle man!

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 4:48pm

I don’t know, Ken. I ran into it in the diagnostic criteria for the schizo spectrum of disorders. It just struck me at the time as a good description of the breakdown of linear thinking that I was seeing.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 4:58pm

Oh, witsend, sorry, that was for you.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 4:59pm

Thank you for reposting your story. I didn’t read the original. How I missed it, I have no clue.

It does clarify why your friends and acquaintances discuss your bizarre, tramatic experiences with your x wife. I guess they are themselves maybe overwhelmed with the crazy circumstances. I would be if I didn’t know what I know now about the total chaos and destruction PDIs wreak in their wake.

And you will always receive support, compassion, encouragement and understanding at LoveFraud. Even if the experiences are more/less traumatizing to each of us, we’ve been there in some way, some how in our lives.

You can come here, any time and share with us. Pour your heart out, your soul out, share your misery with us and none of us peeps will ever tell you to…”get over it already!”

We’re sensitive, caring people who will listen. Listen and care for you so much.

Peace, Love and Joy for you, my friend…

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 5:27pm

Thanks for sharing your story. I never heard of anyone becoming a PD when they seen so normal and for so long. I knew something was wrong with my relationship for years but to have something like this happen to a person is unbelievable. Please don’t get me wrong insomuch I do believe it. Did your ex ever have a CAT or MRI done?

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 5:34pm

Dear Oxy,
The wedding was beautiful and very emotional for me. Brought up both expected and non expected feelings for me. I posted on Monday about the wedding under this article.

My computer is fixed it had a bad hard drive and was not priority for awile (before wedding) but I am so glad to have it back.
Because of the lack of computer, I haven’t caught up with much yet here at LF from the past few weeks….Trying to look at whats current.

Not much has changed over here, except that summer does not contain school and so that is one less stressful thing to deal with.
I did recieve awile back the books I ordered and finished the one you had reccomended and currently reading the other book about teenagers.
We are also currently in that class I had told you about “Parenting with Love and Limit”. This class actually has some good advice for both parents and kids. However at this point (halfway through) I am inclined to think it might be more helpful for parents and kids facing more of what could be considered more “normal” issues between teenagers and parents. I am trying to stay open minded though and focus on the classes. Interestingly enough the class is all teenage girls except for my son. It is hard for me to relate with parents that find major “issue” with not cleaning their rooms or “sassing back” (but still doing what they are asked to do in the end)…….My sons room is often trashed but this does seem like an unimportant “battle” to me when faced with the other things he presents me with.

School does seem to be a common denominator though. All of these kids seem to have some kind of issues with school.
And a year ago I would have put school high on my list of major issues, and today it is still on my list of importance but I think I am more concerned about his motives and underlying issues. His distorted thinking of school seems to surface as more of a problem than the actual flunking of his classes.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 5:52pm

Done says:

Blindsided,
What a nightmare. How are you feeling about all of this now that a year has passed? I hope that the pain has at least begun to dull.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 6:06pm

Stargazer says:

It seems I drop by less and less these days due to so much else going on, and also the sociopath just fading into my memory as one of my life experiences. I honestly don’t know if I have forgiven him. I am have not felt angry at him in quite a long time, since he stopped posting on the website where I met him. I don’t know how I would respond if he ever came back. Out of sight; out of mind. As long as he remains off my radar screen I really have no issues with him. When I think of forgiveness, I get the image of giving the person a hug and feeling this love and connectedness to them. I cannot imagine that with the sociopath. I will always keep him at a distance as far away as possible. I don’t think I will ever have empathy for his disorder.

I promised JAH and a few others I would let them know how my meeting went with an old bf from 26 years ago. It was wonderful to see an old friend and catch up. He is a PhD psychologist who has (unsuccessfully) treated a few sociopaths, so we had an interesting discussion about them. The rest of the time was spent catching up–there was no romantic interest on either end–just two old friends catching up. I hope to meet up with him again on his next trip through town. He is taking a Buddhist teacher training course in a neighboring town that requires him to come back from time to time.

I hope everyone is well, and I will try to stop in from time to time, even though I have so little desire to discuss my days of hell recovering from the sociopath. Two of my best friends, a married couple, are talking about setting me up with someone. For the first time in a year, I’m actually not totally opposed to the idea. But neither am I expending any energy on meeting anyone. It doesn’t interest me these days.

I seem to have let go of a lot of anger I was going through a few weeks ago. I still feel some energy blockage in my eyes, which I don’t totally understand, but I’m working on it.

Love and peace to all,
StarG

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 10:30pm

I want to thank you all again for your comments on this thread. I have to take a break from LoveFraud for about ten days. I’m dealing with a slew of deadlines and some travel next week. I’ve been trying to juggle it all for the last few days, because I like to stay with the thread for a while after I post an article. But I need to leave the one early.

Namaste and wishing you great progress –

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 11:19pm

Star: Good to hear the meeting with your old bf went well, he sounds normal! LOL

I feel the same way you do about forgiveness, I guess that’s why I feel I can forgive myself, but the S, well I just try to accept that he is what he is, but I don’t have to like it.

Sounds like you are feeling much better and I am happy to read about that! Keep us in the loop!

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 11:34pm

One more word, and then I’m leaving. Really.

The topic of this article was forgiving, not forgiveness. Very different things. Forgiving is a decision we make about the amount and type of energy we want to give an issue. And then it’s something we do.

In my lexicon, forgiveness is a state of being in relationship to an issue. If we get there, we don’t have to do anything else. Forgiveness involves more than I discussed in this article. It goes beyond not caring. Probably the last article I write in this series will be about compassion. It’s the end of trauma-processing path, and it the thing that makes forgiveness make sense.

Good night.

Wednesday, 17 June 2009 @ 11:52pm

henry says:

Forgiving myself has been the struggle – I forgive the scorpion for stinging me because that is what they do.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:05am

Largely due to the terrific insight and moral help Ive been receiving from you guys lately, I have FINALLY!{about time too!I can almost hear you say!] written this letter,-and posted it, to my 45 year old daughter, Debbie. Its probably been one of the hardest letters Ive ever had to write, but I knew , for my own emotional, spiritual and mental health, I had to do it. The line in the sand I drew was only over a seemingly small thing, ie, that she removed me from her facebook “friends” yet kept on 2 former punk, alcoholic girlfriends. Knowing now what i didnt before, that narcissists/border line S personalities need sycophantic “strokes” and compliments like the air they breathe it shouldnr have ben any surprise that she chose them over me. {To explain, Glennis and jane were two of the punks responsible for my home and art studio being wrecked, huge amounts of money put on my chemist and grocery accounts,and, in part, my ex starting to drink again after 1o year of sobriety.} here is the letter.
“Dear Deborah, You are no doubt wondering why I havent been in touch with you for a month,maybe you have a vague idea that it is something to do with you removing me from your facebook friends, and leaving on your friends, Jane and glennis.Ive been reading a lot lately about Narcissistic/borderline sociopathic personality disorders, and the conclusion Ive come to is you have this disorder.The fact that you will go to any length to maintain this false,phoney, Narcissistic image of yourself as a perfect,flawless superior, entitled, being. Ns will never, ever admit they are to blame for anything,its always someone elses fault. Either their husbands,their Mothers,their Boss,their latest ex-friend,its never them.They will drop people at the drop of a hat, if they in any way interfere with this perfect image of themselves. They are emotionally so detached that they are able to do the most rotten, callous and cruel things,such as banning their own Mother from their wedding,as you did. or wrecking her house, and art studio,[twice},without one shred of guilt or remorse. You see, in their eyes,they are never wrong!Now, whethe or not you have this disorder,[and I think it highly likely that you have},I put it on record,that from today, thursday, the 16th of June, 2009,Im finally drawing a line in the sand with you.
I will no longer,a} be used as a cash-cow to giveyou money and/or goods, whenever you need them.B} will no longer be an emotional punching bag for you and Claire. c}I will never again allow you to use your kids as bargaining tools, ie, withholding them unless i come forward with what you want.d]condone any of your exploitative,humiliating,and disrespectful treatment of me. I am worth so much morethan this!e] I will not, any longer,be swayed by your tears ,[crocodile or otherwise},to get what you want from me,ie, great wads of cash.
If you and claire do not love me,no amount of love,caring, overgiving,forgiving,endlessly putting up with s--t behaviour, from both of you. {and dont pretend that you feel any more loving towards me than your siste does], will MAKE you love me. I have literally turned myself insde out over the last 30 years,for you and Claire. Sure I wasnt a perfect Mother, I dont claim to be, but I did the best I knew how.Since I married David 25 years ago,we have both tried very hard tomake sure you and claire felt loved, and part of a family. All we have ever got in return is abuse,worry, broken promises,disrespect,lies,and grief.It was the single most rotten thing you have ever done to me, to ban me from your wedding, 15 years ago. Barbara,{my exs wife} rang me before the wedding to say,”I cant stand either of your girls, and I think its terrible what Deb is doing to you”After the wedding she told me that”Deborah would have loved the guests to think that you had boycotted her wedding,however, i was at pains to tell them you had been banned from it.”And to add insult to injury, you invited David to go.{Naturally he didnt go!}
You will eventually run out of “friends to use, abuse, and discard. Your looks will fade in time. Then what? You will never, at this rate, with over A$25,000 in credit card and other debt,ever own your own place.You will eventually get some money from my estate,but Im not planning to die any time soon, so you may be in for a long wait! I still love you as my daughter,[God knows why,]but I dislike the way you behave. You removed me , your greatest ally,from facebook,but cant bring yourself t remove these sycophantic, alhoholic no-hopers, jane and glennis. Thanks a lot.That tells me you really ARE a narcissist,and cant survive without the false “strokes” and compliments of people like them. Well, the ball is now firmly in your court. Either you remove them, the punks who were , with you,jointly responsible in 1981 for destroying my home,and re-instate me.And I require an apology from you for at least some of the tuly awful things you have done to me over the last 30 years. or, thats it.I no longer wish to have anything to do with you. You will be tuly on your own, as very soon you will run out of “friends’, as you only use people to serve your ends.You have given me nothing but unhappiness, grief, and worry over the last 30 years.I deserve a good life with david.You only drag me down. You never give anything back. I can no longer afford to keep baling you out. You will be 45 in 2 weeks timeyou are a middle aged woman, I dont owe you anything, any more.But you owe me.Not money,I have never once asked you for anything back from the $12,000 and over I have given to you over the past 25 years .All I ask for is an apology for all the rotten things you have done to me, the lies, the con tricks, the deception,the disrespect. NO MORE!! I wont be baling you out EVER AGAIN!
I hope you GET this,and try to do something now to turn your life around,and make some recompense to all the people ,myself included,that you have used and hurt, before its too late. You are a total phoney,you need to get real,and come to terms with the way youve treated family and friends over the years. We are off to south Africa in 3 weeks time,on Holida. If I havent heard from you in that time,and I see that you havent re-instated me on your facebook and removed the no-hopers,{ who gave me and your dad so much grief in the early 80’s}, then I will have to conclude that our relationship is OVER. That is my particular line in the sand, and Ive finally drawn it. I will have to rely on your ex husband to bring the kids over occasionally, no longer will I allow you to ue them as pawns, or bargaining tools in our relationship. I have seen them exactly twice, in 7 months. So thats it. Mum.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:37am

geminigirl: Wow, you really put your entire heart in that letter. I am glad you are standing up for yourself!! Good for you! It just amazes me how these people with personality disorders can treat even their own parents, after all I’ve read here on LF I shouldn’t be amazed anymore, but I am. I hope things work out the way you want, being able to have some kind of relationship (without being “a cash cow”)!! After 30 years of unhappiness and grief I can still feel how much you love her, but you are right, you do deserve a good life!!!!!

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:32am

Re: Forgiving. “Forgiving is a decision we make and then gradually follow through, adapting that decision to our own comfort level”.

I wrote “I just try to accept that he is what he is, but I don’t have to like it”, that is my comfort level, I guess I am forgiving, I let go of the resentment.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 1:54am

sabrina says:

Witsend- Glad to see your post, my computer has been out too and I have just gotten back on from about 4?weeks ago.How weird is that, I read yours was out also.
In the situation of your son, I know its probally alittle easier for you with school being out, since you dont have to drag him out of bed as before.Your comments about the high amount of entitlement and their feelings of being superior and right about EVERYTHING is so true with my son as well!

With my 20 yr old P son, the last update, I had made the decision (with really no choice) to make him leave my home, where he had been staying for about 3 weeks.. I had to forcibly make him leave since as always, he chose to “not hear” what I was really trying to say to him and create an ugly,scary drama out of it . He chose to threaten and verbally attack me even tho I was offering to pay his rent for him to just leave my home as he was already reeking havoc- following no house rules, going into rages, verbal abuse toward me (he had also previously physically attacked me in one of his rages)- Obviously, he had to go for my safety, peace of mind, and my young daughters as well. (I have also been N/C only 10 mos. with my x N/P former husband.)

Only a few weeks after my son was forced to leave my home, and went back to his fathers house to live (not the x N/P- we had no children together) My son was arrested,breaking his prior probation from a drunk driving charge and may be facing 6 mos. jail time.

The amazing part, is that even on probation- he and his gf were drinking one night at a friends house, they get into an arguement- the gf starts walking down the road (obviously to get away from him) my son is angry and calls the police on her. Both get arrested for public intox. He basically called the police on himself! (episode for dumbest criminals, right?)
My son, amazingly turns the story around to say-he was “worried” about his gf, so he called the police to protect her from walking at night alone- WHAT B.S! If he were fearful for her safety- why didnt HE go check on her?Especially, knowing she most certainly would go to jail for drinking and a being a minor.
Incrediously, my son calls to argue with me (after his gf BAILS HIM OUT of jail) that the police DONT KNOW he is on probation and he’s sure that I “ran my mouth to the officer and told the police- which he says would be the ONLY way he gets into major jailtime for this! (what a blame game) He truly believes he can outsmart the police and argued with them incessently the night of his arrest. Everyone else is stupid, wrong, and out to get him. EVERY problem he has EVER had is blamed on someone else to the point of just insanity. He is a master of the smear campaign, as he, for years has told blatant lies to others about me in order to render himself blameless for not finishing school,keeping a job, going to college, or staying out of jail.

I just recently here on LF have been able to admit that my son is a S. I think before, I was simply in so much trauma with my x n/p that I could not deal with the fact that my son is as cold and heartless as my x.
The complete change of demeanor and callousness my son exhibits is scary and threatening. I know without a shadow of a doubt that he feels hatred toward me and violence is in him. I asked his g.f about the black eye I heard that my son gave her, she said, NO not a black eye- more like 3 (black eyes.) I told her to get away from him, she didnt deserve this treatment, and blah, blah, blah- which is what I think is all she heard. She is in a trauma bond, and I dont know that I can rescue her! My son also showed signs of violence, I have just learned with his gf while in high school!
As I stated before, my son was not raised with any violence, drug or alcohol abuse whatsoever. Its hard to live with the fact that he is causing so much heartache and is danger to those he is around. I feel its my duty to warn any female that he may be with now or in the future. Any IDEAS?
As I am just finding out this information- only a few weeks ago, I am obviously dazed and confused. I had even thought about calling the current gf’s parents to get them to encourage her to leave him, however they are out of the country, I have no way of reaching them. I am finding myself, like Oxy to the point of feeling my son is dead to me- so sad but this monster is not who I raised. My situation now is to stay totally clear of him and N/C as much as possible.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:06am

geminigirl- Im sorry, I didnt see your letter before I posted or anything after it. I commend you for ‘drawing the line in the sand’. It sounds like youve been through an awful lot. Its so hard to believe our children can really be this cold blooded. I know it might be hard to stick with your conditions here, but they are absolutely reasonable and I think its great therapy for you to stand up for yourself. Stick to your gun! Good luck. xoxo

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 2:23am

This is truly the hardest thing Ive ever had to do, even harder than leaving my ex ,with no money, after I was bashed. I know I risk not seeing my grandkids, but, you know what?you are all of you right, you eventually come to a place when you just say,”No More! Enough, already!” Took me a long time to get there, and I just hope I can stick to my guns and not weaken. I know all you great people are on my side, and cheering me on from the sidelines!
Thank you all, for your ongoing love and support. I know youve all been there! Love, geminigirl.XX

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:07am

Geminigirl: If in the spectrum of “emotional color” they are colorblind to the emotions of love, compassion, tenderness, consideration . . .

You have to protect yourself. If they are deficient in those “emotional colors,” you cannot even speak to them about the “colors.”

But you can protect yourself from further damage.

I can speak because I have had to implement NC before I even knew what that meant.

My heart goes out to you as you make this difficult choice to let go of the past and claim your own right to your own life.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 3:28am

Dear Sabrina,

Glad you are back, we have missed you! Your post is so RIGHT ON!

It is heart breaking to realize that you have raised a monster. That we have hatched a dragon egg in our clutch! Some people also don’t realize til too late that this thing that they raised (which appears so human) can turn on them and devour them without the least bit of regret.

Our “sacrifices” that we willingly give to raise our children we do not expect to be “repaid for”—they are GIFTS to our children from our love. These monsters, however, use that love we have for our children so that we will foster them, and they only despise us for our gifts of love, time, concern, and caring.

They feel entitled to us continuing to take care of them forever, meet their needs forever, just like we would meet th needs of a two year old no matter if it took 24 hours a day 7 days a week, because we love that baby. They are perfectly capable of meeting their own needs for housing transportation, food, etc, but they have become ENTITLED, they think, to having us meet those basic needs because they are too lazy to do it for themselves. If we refuse, then they feel entitled to punish us for failing to continue the care for them that we would extend to a two year old willingly.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:39am

Dear Oxy, as always, your words of wisdom to me are appreciated and are like receiving a present-its a gift from your heart. I’ve missed everyone here so much and am glad to be gobbling up all the missed information. I think although it has been a rough road-to say the least with much heartache, I am better now that I am finally understanding what my son is and the shock, disappointment, and confusion is lessened. I now at least have some tools on how to handle him- No contact, no contact, no contact. At this point, that sounds like relief for me. Some of my family keeps warning me to- never give up on him- I think, they just dont understand. The ONLY peace I have had is in keeping him out of my house- then after he left- he continues to try to call me spewing his venom- so phone calls are threatening, and cant be allowed.The few brief times I am in his presence, he tries to torture me with his irreverent comments and drama making. If staying out of his line of destruction is “giving up” I guess that is exactly what I have done. I can pray at a safe distance away, for him and for those whom he is in contact with. This is now my plan of parenting him. I will not bail him out of his self inflicted life incarceration that he has himself in.
James, I remember you warned me back when I was having malignant hope for the situation. You were right to warn me or anyone else of the dangers our own children can bring into the family. I took precautions based on your wisdom and took very seriously yours, Oxys, and other advice here. Thanks so much for your support guys….

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 11:24am

Sabrina,
SO glad to hear from you. I was worried about you as I remember the last time we “chatted” your situation was him & his gf getting out of your house.

When my computer was down I went to the library a couple of times to use a computer but I missed so much being w/o a computer and couldn’t find any postings from you. I am so glad that you are OK!

If you think your son will actually get some jail time, maybe that would be the time to talk to her parents. With any luck if he goes to jail she might get tired of waiting on him and find another bf. However if she likes the “bad boy” in him it might also make her heart grow fonder when he is gone.

My opinion is that really all you can do is warn her parents and her, that he is dangerous. Her parents do have a right to know this because I would suspect SHE doesn’t share that with them. What they choose to do about it once they know is yet to be seen. Maybe HER parents can file a protection order if she is underage? MAYBE her parents have given up on her if they are out of the country and she doesn’t live with them anymore? Maybe she was a handful and they have washed their hands of her and are letting her learn her lessons the hard way?
I know “nothing” about this situation obviously but just putting some ideas out there……For you to think about.
As a mother though, I know that you would feel better at least by making her parents AWARE of the danger. I know I would.
Just know that there is only so much you CAN do. If he has already hit her and abused her and created that “bond” that keeps her there…….There is little you can do to stop it.

Yes, not being in school has lessoned some of the stress….If you get a chance go back to Mondays postings (on this thread) as I posted about my older sons wedding. My younger son was on his best behavior that day.

xxooxxoo

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 11:26am

Witsend, I did the same, went to my computer at work, tried to find you, but couldnt and I was unable to post at work anyways. So glad the wedding went smooth! And your sons behavior! Its amazing how they can turn on a dime and be so charming and charismatic. I have many reasons to be proud of my son, he has many talents and positive traits-however,IF ONLY he would use his powers for Good, not evil. Its like Oxy once said- rat poison is only 1% poison, but its enuf to kill. (I think I have that rite- correct me if I am wrong)
I hope Witsend, you have a better outcome with your son than I have with mine. I realize this is really only the beginning with our children. Even tho mine is grown, its a never ending decision to have to stand by. I’ve chosen to treat him like I would if I were standing cllose to a rattlesnake. Take Care, let us know how you are doing. xoxox

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 11:43am

Sabrina,
I am slowly learning that if your child has a mental illness of any kind it is a double edge sword. No matter how you approach it your going to get cut.
Everything I used to “think” I knew, I am having to relearn. I always had more questions than answers. But the further down the road I go with this, the more I find that even my first INITIAL questions go unanswered by the health professionals I have encountered.
I thought (how nieve is that) that knowledge is power. KNOWING something is wrong is better than being in denial about it. And seeking “help” is the answer.
I am reminded of the childhood game of “hot potato”. Only I feel I am like the hot potato. Tossed back and forth. Resources in my community are obviously not the best. Those that do exist must be over extended or???

It is frustrating to me that in a year and a half of trying to get help from outside resources I have mostly run in circles.
It is troubling that it seems specifically the mental health field. There seems to be a treatment “arena” for any other problem. Drugs, alcohol, runaways, anger management, domestic abuse, etc.
At some point it seemed to me that getting in front of a judge was somehow the answer to getting the resourses made available, that seemed so unavailable otherwise. And that is when filing the incorrigible teen seemed to be the right thing to do. Instead my paperwork was handed over to this facilitator of this program/classes Parenting with Love and Limit.
This facilitator gets a few thousand dollars for every teen that gets into his program. This is how HE makes his living. So it stands to reason that he is going to reccomend kids/parents go into this program when he has the final say of they go into the program OR I get to go in front of a judge for the incorrigible petition. My sons at risk counscelor at school even pointed this out to me and I had already known that I was being railroaded where this was concerned. She just confirmed it. So we are going through the program. It seems like a decent program for kids/parents that are dealing with normal teenage behaviors.

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 12:51pm

Witsend, Its not over yet, you made the first courageous steps and he is in A program. My sons first program wasnt the best fit for us, but it was a start. Sadly, no programs proved to work for him, but it eventually aided me in having peace of mind that I was doing something to help or at the very least, a back up parent so to speak, to force him to comply with rules. Its a mixed blessing. YOU will be running to and fro on the programs at first, but eventually it should settle down where they concentrate more on him. I understand how frustrating it all is for you. I am sorry you are having such a rough time. How is your sons overall demeanor? Still raging? I feel that you have to keep your spirits up as much as possible and KNOW that you are making the right decision. Double mindedness is the kiss of death here. Other peoples ignorance and condensending unsolicited advice is also kiss of death. Please dont allow negative self doubt to control you. Try to wake up each morning with fierce determination that you are doing all you can, and let what you cant do go. I have had to focus on trusting my sons entire destiny with God – as tho it isnt His already! When leaving it in Gods hands, we arent allowing Him to take it from us when we go back and worry. My daily focus is to meditate on “God has this covered and He will show me when to react and when to stay still.” Take care and know we are all with you here.. xoxo

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 5:25pm

reddroze24 says:

Forgiveness is a powerful tool…After exercising this recently after 5 years worth of emotional trouble, I feel like myself again. Thank you, God!

Thursday, 18 June 2009 @ 10:55pm

Reddroze:
Good for you! I have struggled with even the thought of forgiveness of the ex s.
Too raw just yet I suppose, or maybe I am just not willing. I am sure it will all be part of my evolution of self!
Congratulations on your peace and getting YOU back!
XXOO

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 12:17am

endthepain says:

to all:

I am starting to try and live and feel….that its n ot about forgiving the S….because its truly impossible as we do not comprehend and cannot gtry and comprehend how and why they do what they do..so I BELIVE the process is forgiving YOURSELF for allowing it…..looking at ourselves as to why we would accept such things…and in doing that I believe the release comes thru because it is about us not them…as every blog and every post states…NC and taking back control…so taking control is forgiving OURSELVES FOR ACCEPTING LESS…they are who they are!! we are better! xoxoxo

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 12:35am

End:
Wow! Great post! I am so proud of you, you are in a good place! Your really growing, learning……your future will take care of itself…..KEEP IT UP GIRL!!!!
XXOO

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 1:52am

reddroze24: Thank you for sharing, it is encouraging to read how much better you feel now.

endthepain: That has been my biggest hurdle, forgiving myself… I had to do it, I’m stuck with me!

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 2:21am

endthepain-you express all this so well! I feel as if Im just now emerging from a 30 year nightmare with first my exhusband, and then my two adult daughters. Even now, I have to try very hard not to second guess myself,for years and years the “girls” have spoken to me in a patronising way, and tried to make out that I was the crazy one. in order to get to see my 3 grandkids,I was always the one who had to “eat crow’, and apologise to Deb just to get to see them even tho Id done nothing wrong,I let her win. {again} She always told me I was a drama queen,and that she had to put up with MY mood swings, though in truth, she was the one with the mood swings. Its amazing how persuasive they are, you start to second guess yourself, and think,-”maybe I DID over react, maybe IM the crazy one? How I used to,[and still do] dread my daughter ringing me,wondering if she will yell at me, get defensive,cry,or patronise me.Even after 25 years of loving support from my kind and loving husband, when he says”Its Deborah to speak to you on the phone,” why do I get this dread and fear in the pit of my stomach? ” Its almost a primitive fear, and a sense,of “She does not mean good for me, she means harm”. I never feel she is on my side, I always feel she is the enemy.! And now, having stated my ‘terms’ and thrown down the gauntlet,by sending her the letter. Im filled with dread again. Why is this? I knew I had to do it, but Im still scared of the outcome, scared I wont see my grandkids again. What have I done? Part of me is proud of myself for standing up to her at last, and part of me is fearful.Is all this normal? geminigirl.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 8:07am

sugarandspice says:

Ive just read this thread and wanted to thank you for sharing your story and your original post. I hadn’t seen it before – I discovered LF only a couple of months ago.

You have lived through a nightmare and my dealings with an S were not as devastating (though it felt that way at the time), however I empathise with you and we may have some things in common. My ex is a charming specialty doctor who seems to have fooled everyone, as you mentioned. And, he moved in on my close knit circle of friends and community at my church. They were like family to me. He charms and befriends them all when it suits him.

Before I learnt what a sociopath is, I stubbornly kept turning up for church every week after the relationship ended, even though my ex would likely be there, because I clung to the life that I had BEFORE and during the relationship – and figured that I should be attending MY church, with MY friends. However this just reopened the wounds every single weekend. Even as the weekend approached, I would start to dread seeing my ex, and get that tight knot in my belly and the adrenalin would flow, in anticipation.. I mistakenly thought that I needed this group of friends for me to somehow exist and that I couldn’t give this church community up, as it was all I’d known.

But, recently I’ve had to be brave and honest with myself and realise, thanks to OxDrover and the other kind bloggers here, that my ‘friends’ have not all been very supportive anyway – and that without me going NC (no contact) on my ex and giving up that community, I would just keep re-injuring that wound. So, I learned to turn around my stubborn mindset and decide that I deserve better and even if it means giving up something that I value, it is worth it.

I hate change. I can’t uproot easily. I envy Kathy’s ability to do so. I’m learning though… And I am proof that life does go on, more smoothly now that I’ve avoided that church, and most of those ‘friends’ for months now. It is such a surprise!

So, I know what I’m describing here is nothing like the prospect of you moving away from your beautiful gated community, but sadly, I think the ex in your life is doing the same to you as mine did to me – take over an aspect of your life that she/he likes. They like to crush you and they like to win. It does sound like it causes you pain to stay there. I know you think it would cause you pain to leave, but have you really considered your safety?? Oxy has an amazing story of moving away from her home when it became obvious her safety was at risk… Perhaps you could give your situation some more thought, perhaps while you are again away on a trip or a visit to family etc, where you can breathe easily and can think more clearly?

Anyway, Ken, I’m young and have much to learn, but just thought I might be able to share in a way that might be of benefit to you.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 11:02am

geminigirl,
I had missed alot for a few weeks with my computer down and have only recently been able to try and update since my computer is now fixed.

Forgive me if I don’t know your whole story. I did however read the post with the letter that you sent to your daughter. And some of your more recent post.
“Projection” of ones own behavior onto others seems to be a common denominator that s/p/n personalities seem to partake in on a regular basis. From reading your story it seems that your daughter has done this to you on a consistant basis. So it is no wonder that you are left second guessing yourself and feeling like you do.

Intellectually you know what really took place but emotionally you start to doubt yourself. The projection, the lies & the crazymaking thrown at you all at the same time is enough to make any one of us “sane” & “normal” people feel a little crazy. What is REAL becomes DISTORTED.

Of course you are feeling dread right now as you have done the hardest thing possible a mother can do. You have said in your letter NO MORE. You are drawing a boundary. And that is a hard thing to do when you begin. She might retaliate with your grandchildren. Especially if she knows that would be the very thing to cause you the most pain. It might be wise to not directly let her know that this is your biggest fear. Sounds like she is already “using” them as pawns anyways in your situation. By not letting you see them often.

I think everything you are feeling right now is perfectly normal. Hopefully someone else will respond to you that has better wisdom than I in these matters. I just wanted to give you my best wishes and support for all you have been through.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 2:08pm

sabrina,
Oh I know it isn’t over yet…..Gosh I think the LONG road ahead is just begining. I guess, I am just bummed because once my son turns 17 years old I am unable to file incorrigible petition with the court and time is TICKING. This whole thing has progressed quickly since I noted the original issues when he was 15.
Yet though the issues/disorder/illness has progressed quickly the actual finding of outside resources seems to work at a SNAILS pace. I just don’t feel that “time” is on my side.

To answer your question my sons demeanor isn’t real bad right now. The rage isn’t at all on the surface. Kind of like the calm before the storm. School isn’t in session and that is usually a daily stress at our house. So that helps a bit.

The program so far hasn’t been an issue with him as far as participating and going. The facilitator gives these kids a feeling of THEM being able to “turn things around” at home and I think my son is intrigued by that.

I know it sounds crazy but I think my son percieves this whole thing as big “mind game”. Kind of like a win/win situation for him. Maybe like he can come out of this with more “tricks up his sleeve” than he already has?
I really have been trying to have an open mind about this program but my gut is telling me different.

For myself I was hoping to be able to connect with somewhat of a support system & some parents that might be going through SOME of the same things I was dealing with as a parent. Some tough issues. Maybe even some people that I would be able to keep contact with after the program was over?

Its tough to try and relate with the others when “not cleaning their rooms” and “sassing back” is high on their agendas.

There are 3 more classes. The 5th class is parents only.

I am mad at myself that I am finding myself in this “negative” mode. I think it has gotten worse since “loosing” contact with the ONE person who was begining to see the side of my son with her own eyes that I so inadequitely try to portray with words. She was begining to “get it”. And certainly not by what I said but rather with her own interactions with him. She kind of caught him in one of his lack of “reality” stories and caught him completely off guard. His melt down in front of her spoke volumes that MY words could never accomplish. She works for the school so since school is out I no longer have access to her support. Her exact words to me after the melt down were: “He needs the HELL scared out of him”.

I suppose because I feel so “alone” in my situation (in my circle, family, friends) that her “getting it” even in just a SMALL way was some validation of sorts?

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 3:31pm

Witsend: I’m glad to see you. I understand that your son is in this program, and I totally “get” what your gut is telling you.

Is this an all-day, 5-day program? An evening program? And how is it structured?

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 3:59pm

SugarandSpice,

That was a lovely post to Ken. His experience with his ex wife is seriously unimaginable to me. I’m having a difficult time processing what the hell happened to her. Did she just snap, flip out? Is she somehow regressing back to a childlike mentality? Middle age onset bi polarism with a PDI? What?!

And there’s Ken, undergoing chemo therapy to fight cancer, for 52 weeks of his life, no less and she can’t even be bothered to provide loving support and comfort in his most direst need. I shake my head in confusion and despair for Ken. But he’s a strong fella (beat the big C) and I think he’s recovering…slowly but surely from such devastation and trauma. Our prayers are with you, Ken.

And thanks for updating us about your current situation with the ex. How sad that you had to quit attending your beloved church because he has taken up residence there, sliming his sleazy way into the hearts of folks there.

It’s a church, for cyring out loud! A place we visit seeking a peaceful, loving, spiritual environment to enrich ourselves, to collect our scattered, tumultuous thoughts by reading Scripture and glorifying God. And this parasite has the audacity to invade at his leisure. How revolting and repugnant of him.

Well, I sincerely hope you have found a more loving and beneficial Christian fellowship group or church to be a member of. There are plenty, all over the place. Just visit as many as you want to find that most wonderful one that suits you best.

Peace, Love and Joy to all…fervently!

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 4:39pm

Rune,
It is a 6 week program, 2 hour class once a week in the evening. For one hour of the program the parents and kids are together in the class and the last hour kids and parents are seperated.
They also come to your house for about 1 1/2 hours for 5 of those weeks. For what they call family hour.
The structure of this program follows a book that is given in the first class. The at home visits also follow the books guidelines.
The program is pretty structured and that is fine but leaves little room for “personal” issues/questions or getting off “task”.
I thought that maybe when they came to your house that would be the time to get a little more personal. Maybe as the program continues…..

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 5:17pm

Witsend: From a higher perspective, frankly I hope your son shows the program facilitators what he showed the school therapist. I wish the program had longer hours that permitted more opportunity for your son to drop his facade, but let’s see what happens.

At least you are following the program that has been outlined for you — so you can be seen as complying with “the system.”

I know it’s a challenge to have the patience in your situation, but I know you are doing the best you can.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 6:23pm

Rune,
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I am trying to be patient although I’m sure I don’t sound like I am!

I don’t even talk to my friends very much anymore about my son because that drains my patience, big time. To often I walk away from them feeling completely exhausted by trying to explain the unexplainable. And when they see him on his “perfect” behavior such as they did during my older sons wedding, I am SURE that they must think I am crazy…..

My friends that have known me most of my life seem to be the ones that know me well enough that when I tell them “something” is very wrong, they know even though I can’t articulate it well…..Those few “lifer” friends in my circle have known me long enough to know that I have very good instinct and logical down to earth thinking. And that I have thought this through long and hard before even speaking about it. My one friend that came in for the wedding we were able to talk for a short time. It felt good to be able to talk to an old friend again.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 7:00pm

Witsend: I’m glad you have that support. I know it means so much to know you have friends who care about you, even if they can’t do anything directly to help the situation. We need that emotional safety net.

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 7:30pm

Dear Witsend, Geminigirl, etc. I know you all know the pain that is so specific to a parent who “loses” a child, or thinks the child may be “terminal” but are not sure—it is such a crushing feeling, and one several people here on LF can relate to.

I’ve been on my own oddesy with this for 20+ years and am only now coming to the conclusion of it all where there is peace and not the chest crushing grief and pain I have felt for so long.

I stayed in denial lfor waaaaay too long, held on the maligniant “hope” that there was something I could do. I tried “it all” and nothing worked for me. For those of you who still have some hope because your children are not fully adults yet, I pray for you and for your children. for those of you like Geminigirl and myself (and the others here too) that have a more clear picture of what our offspring have become. Accepting REALITY is not easy, but it is our only way out of the fire of the grief.

Sabrina, I know that these “well lmeaning souls” tell you never to give up, but this is a platitude that they offer because they do not “get it”—-they don’t realize that it is only when you ACCEPT REALITY that you can heal.

sometimes I have felt like my small boys’ pictures should be on a milk carton advertizing “have you seen this child? Call 1-800-MISSING”

My little boys are gone. all of them. But, I now have FRIENDS in two of them, and the third is a stranger to me. I don’t know him. But ALL of my babies are “no more.” I am finally at peace with the transformation of two of my babies into wonderful MEN, and the third baby turned into a man I don’t know, or want to know. Peace to you all!

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 10:55pm

I believe that all of us on this site have gone through changes that we never anticipated EVER in our lives.

Ox-Drover, I believe that no one should have to live through the trials and loss that you have suffered, yet, here you are. And you are a generous guide to the rest of us as you share what you have learned on this unspeakably difficult journey of your life.

Those of us who are struggling in our moments, dealing with the trauma of the betrayal, we might consider that on the other side of this we will be humans who can care and give in ways we never imagined.

That cast-iron skillet that Oxy is so clever with used to be just dirt in the ground. The iron ore was mined and refined through heat and “trauma,” and then it was cast into its final shape — a skillet that can feed a table of hungry relations, or provide a little friendly reminder of the true path when wielded by a wise hand here in cyberspace.

We don’t really know what we’re going to look like on the other side of this journey of recovery. Maybe we’ll change from caterpillars into butterflies, or from “dirt” into iron skillets!

Friday, 19 June 2009 @ 11:27pm

Thank you Witsend, Kathy, Oxy,
thanks to all of you amazing women who have faced up to these demons, been through fire, hell, and flood, and come out the other side wiser and stronger. Its true,”What doesnt kill us makes us stronger! ‘” I doubt if Id have had the courage to write that lette to deb without the wisdom and support of you guys.Now I need your prayers and support more than ever to help me not to turn into Jello, and quit before Ive even begun. I know I have to see this through, and NOT give in. The universe is helping me big time, with you great people, with books,with insights. I MUST NOT second guess myself. I MUST NOT waver. I must NOT allow fears re not seeing my grandkids sway me. I must stick to my guns.You really do get to a place when everything in you says “ENOUGH ALREADY!’ Ive allowed myself to be abused,for 30 years, Ive let it happen to me.I know its no good appealing to my daughters, as they are the enemy. I cant appeal to their better natures as they dont have one. I have to accept they will NEVER change, protect myself, and move on with my life with my darling husband.I have to shut the door firmly on the past, and move forward, to a great new life.I now really believe NC is the only option for me ,as when I talk to Deb on the phone, all the tears, lies, blaming,[from her} starts all over again. Its totally crazy-making.Even my ex told me to “Treat them both with the indifference and contempt with which they treat you”. So even HE got it! They are not any nicer or more loving to him, either, and only see him twice a year at most.Thanks again, love and blessings to all of you!! GeminigirlXXX

Saturday, 20 June 2009 @ 12:29am

It is my belief that even if you had past experience with an s/p/n in your lifetime on another level, when it is your child it is a complete differnt ballgame. Not to MINIMIZE in any way any “personal” encounter with an s/p/n.

But it is just DIFFERENT. The parent/child bond/relationship is not ment to be broken. Going N/C with a child that you raised is like going against NATURE. And yet when you find yourself in a situation such as what you are going through….When everything else you have tried doesn’t work……WHEN ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ALREADY……And there is no other way to “continue” any type of HEALTHY adult child/parent relationship……You don’t have any other options. I can’t think of anything more devistating than coming to terms with what you have had to come to terms with.

My son is 16 and I have not yet concluded that he has a “terminal” illness. I still am at the stages of hope. Maybe Bipolar, maybe a combination of the many other disorders that are out there. So many of the symptoms are so “over lapping” that the more more research I do the more confused I become. I AM CONVINCED however that he is not just showing average “defiant” teenager syndrome. He is so complex, so Dr Jekle & Mr Hyde, the lies, the manipulation, the anger, the blaming, his ENTITELEMENT issues, his lack of reality, his black & white thinking, it is far to “over the top” and intense for me to believe that this is just a temporary teenage “set back” and all will be “well’ a few years down the road. I would have to be blind, deaf & stupid, to believe that. He does not just have an “outward” attitude problem, or an outward behavior problem….His problem is within his brain. He has distorted thinking/functioning problem. He is for sure “wired” differently. Hard to put into words….Its just the BIG PICTURE. Its the combination of ALL of the complexities of what he consist of.

I am not sure if my “hope” at this point is my biggest downfall or if it is my best defense. I only know that it is what gets me through each day. It is HARD living with my son.
Everything I have been through in my lifetime that I thought was HARD, my divorce from my oldest sons dad, death of my parents, suicide of my husband, these things seems like just little ripples in the water compared to this “title wave”.

I have so many days that I feel completely defeated. I don’t understand this, other than maybe I felt more “support” from others during these other “hardships” in my life. Somehow I feel more alone “with this”. My friends and little family I have left, don’t “get it”. And the more they don’t get it the more I internalize it. His DAMN counselor that he has been seeing for over 8 months doesn’t get it either. I suppose this makes it easier for me to always question my own insticts and gut feelings.
Geminigirl I am not yet near your fork in the road……However I do feel some of your pain. My heart goes out to you. All stages of this when it concerns your own flesh and blood are painful.

Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 10:37am

Oxy,
It is through your wisdom and acceptance of your experience that the rest of us know that “survival” is possible when going through this with a child (adult child OR younger).

Thanks for your never ending energy of being able to share this with all of us here.

Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 5:37pm

Thank you, all of you, for your wonderful wisdom and support.
Yes, witsend, it is the hardest thing Ive ever had to do EVER. Harder than leaving my ex, with just cents in my pocket.But you know, knowledge is power, and Im learning about survival from you guys, how not to keep second guessing myself, to trust my gut,{you know that awful feeling in the pit of your stomach that wont go away}. I know Ive tried and tried,30 years of giving and giving, and them taking and taking.All the terrible pain of the bad things they both did to me. Family doesnt understand, neither do friends. Your church tells you to just keep on loving them unconditionally. Well, it doesnt work! theymistake kindness fore weakness, and despise you for it.What is making it easier is this. Last Sept. , on my way home from a holiday in Scotland,I met this charming young Iranian couple, Abbas and Royaon the flight home from Dubai.. She is 23, he is 24. They were newly married, and allowed in to Australia on temp student visas. They are renting a tiny flat from an Iranian friend, who has gone back to Iran to see his parents. David and I have kind of adopted them. Well, we have adopted each other! They call us,”Daddy”, and mama Maia”, they hug and kiss us, they are so desperate for a loving family,-as we are! They come for lunch around every 3 weeks, and are such fun, so loving, sweet,appreciative.Abbas , who is a Journalist in iran, has taken a job as a house painter for a friend, and works punishing hours. They came to lunch yesterday, Roya brought a home made cake, hugged and kissed me. “how I miss you, my darling mama!” she cried. For my Birthday, my 70th, she brought a dozen pink roses, a cake, and a lovely card,saying I was the best mama in the whole world, and she thanks god for me every day. David, who has had nothing but grief from my 2 daughters, is loving being called “daddy”, and getting hugs from this lovely young girl. We send them away with lots of frozen meals, magazines,I gave them a warm dressing gown each, and they were in tears, Abbas, too.”Thank you, my dear Mum!” he said.The contrast between this sweet, loving couple and my two ‘girls”, is staggering. When deb comes here, she immediately gets behind a magazine, and doesnt even talk to us. David, me, and her ex husband used to feed and care for her kids, which we were happy to do, but she never thanks us, and in all the 25 years weve married, shes never brought as much as a packet of biscuits into our house, any gifts we got were second hand or “freebies”, even the wrapping paper was used!I still love my girls but I dislike them both intensely, and I cant pretend they have done anything for us except cause us worry and grief.So in a way, its like god has removed my daughters, and given me a new daughter to love, and a son too. The french writer, Anais Nin once wrote,”if you were at sea on a life raft, and were trying to save someone from drowning, youd take their hand and try to pull them with all your strength onto the raft, and save their life. But, if that person started to deliberately pull you into the water, at some point, you would have to let go of that hand, let them drown, and save yourself”. This is now what is happening to me. I choose LIFE! I choose, from this day, to be with people like Roya and Abbas, who appreciate me, love me, and give something back! Not money,but love, thoughtfullness and appreciation. The Dementia respite centre where I do voluntary work, appreciate me so much, they gave me a cake, flowers, a lovly signed card, on my Birthday, and even made a speech in my honour! I didnt even merit a card from Deb, and the other one has had no contact in 16anda half years, despite my pleadings by letter to see her kids,{I havenever once seen them, not even as tiny babies}.”I have had a gutful of these selfish manipulative cruel b-tces, and I now am in a place where I choose a happy life with people who love ME.Do not cast your pearls before swine” said Jesus, and boy, is He right!
Can you hear that sound, ? It was a worm turning, -ME!!
Love to all of you great guys, geminigirl.

Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 6:47pm

On a slightly different aspect of life with an NS,have any of you guys heard ofthe term”Gaslighting”?I found an article about it yesterday on a “Survival with an Sociopath/narcissist website. it comes from the film “gaslight, the heroine being Ingrid Bergman.What the evil psychpath lover did to her was try to convince her she was crazy, by doing subtle things each day like turning the gaslight lower and lower, to convince her her eyesight was failing.Then I think he got evil friends to “haunt” her, so that she eventually started to doubt herself, and think she was losing her mind. NSs do this all the time it seems. They project al their faults onto you, the victim,
ie, your a drama queen! {Heard that one afew times!} or your so selfish! hello? isnt it them who are the selfish ones?
Reminded me of a terrifying incident with Deb around1981, i innocently asked her,{trying to be so tactful, as I didnt want another rage fuelled screaming match}, if her boyfriend would mind coming to the front door to meet me. Instead of her responding to the toot of his car horn, running up the drive, and away into the night. She was actually standing ironing a pair of her jeans,at the opposite end of her downstairs room. I was standing in the door jamb of the brand new door, which still hadnt been painted. After screaming abuse at me, she hurled the heavy steam iron at my head. It mised me by a hand span, and hit the door jamb, level with my right temple. Later, both she and Claire,{who hadnt been there} both screamed at me,”Deborah didnt throw anything at you! Your crazy! You should be committed!” I started to doubt my sanity and memory,{like ingrid bergman did in gaslight.} Some5 or 6 yers later, by which time I was divorced from my ex, and happily remarried to David, this incident started to prey on my mind. I was determined to go backto that house of bad memories, and find the evidence I needed, ie, the dent in the door jamb. So, one day, not telling david, I made the long treck to my old home. Took me over 2 hours as we now lived a long way from Newport, sydney. My heart was pounding as I got off the bus, so much that I felt sick with nerves. I walked down the steep hill and found our old home. I knocked on the door of this house where i had lived with peter, my alcoholic husband, and the girls, for over 8 years. A very small boy, around 5 or so, answered it. Come in! He said. he and a little boy his age were all alone in the house., watching TV, with the heavy brown velvet curtains closed. Mums at work, he said,”Can I get you a cup of tea?”
I explained that I had lived in the house before, and just wanted to look round for old times sake. “Thats OK!’ he said, quite unfazed. I was aware I was trespassing, so asked if IIcould ring his Mum at work. he gave me the number, but I couldnt get through to her. While standing in what had been my kitchen, the kitchen that peter and I had put in ourselves before Debs drunken friends had trashed the whole house. I saw a copper jug, and a brass vase. “Thats strange! I told the little boy. “I used to have vases just like that!” then I realised they WERE mine! After I fled, when I was beaten up, taking nothing, peter and the girls moved 6 months later, and the house was sold from under him, as he was 3 months in arrears with the mortgage, due to his drinking, and gambling debts. What they didnt want they left behind, so these vases were mine!”{The girls were 17 and 19 when I left.} Naturally I didnt mention this to the wee boy.I asked if hed mind if I went downstairs. Standing in the doorway downstairs, level with my right temple, was a dent in the soft wood{stillunpainted}, that I was able to fit my whole thumb into. Thats all I wanted to know .It HAD happened! I wasnt crazy! When I got home, david said, “Where on earth have you been, Ive had the Newport police ringing me!{Id left my phone no. on the breakfast bar of my old home. Apparently, the wee boys Mum had come home from work, discovered that her son had let a stranger in, and I imagine to distract attention from the fact she had left two tiny children on their own,all day, had “jumped the gun” and decided to dob me in instead! After Id explained everything to the poice, they said.”Maam,its obviously a storm in a teacup, well explain all this to the boys Mother, and leave it at that>} I never heard another word from her, so she must have felt guilty for leaving her small son on his own for hours each day.
{What an amazing kid, even offering me a cup of tea!}
So this was my own experience of someone trying to gaslight me! geminigirl. HugsXX

Sunday, 21 June 2009 @ 9:32pm

Geminigirl,
Yes, gaslighting is right out of Sociopath 101A. They all do this in some form or other, as many people here will attest to. I’m so sorry your daughters were so abusive. I was getting an image in my head of the movie “What Ever Happened to Baby Jane” when the Betty Davis character was trying to drive her sister crazy and then slowly kill her. This sounds just horrible. I think it’s great that you have drawn your line in the sand. I can imagine how hard it was with your own daughters.

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 3:00pm

GeminiGirl, very interesting story about the “gaslighting” incident.
My P son (20 yrs old) has done this type of thing to me so much. Hes a “walking contradiction.” He is sooo believable I found myself getting caught up in it,,completely dazed and confused.
I find myself having memory lapses about details of all this drama as his comments changed so much, my brain obviously couldnt keep up . (ANY IDEAS ABOUT WHY THAT HAPPENS?)

Witsend, You are strong and you are in reality about what you are up against. The pain will seem unbearable at times, just waiting for the shoe to drop, but just take one day at a time.

When my son was here recently (possibly the last time to ever live here) I treasured the good times, every glimpse of happiness with him- I guess I knew, and was preparing myself, knowing this WAS THE FANTASY, this was only an illusion that we could co habitate peacefully together.

I remember with my x N/p we were supposedly on our 1st year anniversary trip in a beautiful villa with an amazing view. I now realize, then I was clueless, optimisticly thinking I had a marriage.
He was deep into the devalue/discard but b/c he lived off of me, he was still in my house, and I blindly was oblivious that he was done even faking love and respect for me.

I remember hearing lovers on the deck below our villa quietly having coffee, and intimate conversation shortly after sunrise. I began thinking in fragmented confusion that I only ‘wished’ I could enjoy this morning like that couple was.

Longing, for what I didnt yet understand was gone for good, and saddened by my husbands distant, even angry demeanor-AND to be on an 1st yr anniversary. I felt shell shocked to say this least, in denial so deep, so entrenched , I was unable to articulate or formulate in my mind what was even happening.
Sitting on that outdoor patio, a light bulb went off, I realized ” I CAN enjoy this glorious place and be HAPPY, content, and at Peace. I dont need that man to enjoy this. I will bask in the wonder of this place and be thankful for what “I” have.
I know that this, was another way to prepare me for what was to come- enjoying life without the presence of someone else fulfilling an illusion. I have made up my mind to live in the moment- this is IT, and make it count!

The entire trip (expensive, I might add) my X acted strangely distant, no interest to have sex, choosing to sleep when I was awake, -awake while I slept- very bizarre behavior. During the day while shopping, eating, being entertained, he seemed OK – of course, he was doing it on my dime. Even more confusing that when we got back to our villa, he shut down in that bored N/P way.

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 4:54pm

Witsend- I also posted to you, but somehow it got lost, probally user error on my part- but thank you for asking for me, as I went thru previous posts after those weeks my laptop was broken, I saw you repeatedly had asked about me. It Means so much that you care.

I also saw how you and so many others have given so much great wisdom on this thread.

You really stuck in there with Good GRIEF trying to wake him up. I have to agree with Oxy, and you guys, It WAS TIME to STOP the madness!!! I do have something to say to this ENDLESS COMMENTARY TO GG (sorry, peeps!) To be 100% honest, in reading his letters, I felt nervous and uneasy for this girls safety.

If I had received letters like some of those from an X, I would feel endangered. After what I have been through, I would probally think about a restraining order or something even better- DISAPPEARING.

Sorry if GG takes offense, but If MY BEHAVIOR made anyone feel afraid- I would WANT to know and STOP it immediately. I think men have to be even more careful that their actions arent taken as aggression or stalking.

When he said “she was SUPPOSE to marry me” My red flag alert right away went off at this and other choices of words used. Wanting to “know” why a relationship ended is one thing, Feeling ENTITLEMENT and OBSESSION to know, coupled with MANIPULATIVE ploys to get to that end, is either a trip to the therapist OR a first class ticket to jail.

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 5:20pm

Dearest Sabrina,
I WAS really worried about you. Because I had remembered that the last time you had posted you were going through the process of removing your son from your home. And when I saw no recent post from you I feared for your safety. Then awile later my computer was down for a few weeks and I had no access to a computer except couple times I went to the library to borrow one.

It is interesting that when GG first started posting I felt so BAD for him. Seemed like he was just so young…..It wasn’t that he was SO young…I believe was older than my oldest son but he SEEMED so young, with his inability to accept what was happening. Her message seemed so loud and clear.
I think the motherly instict took hold of many of us that replied to him. However as time went on, and he continued writting, I also felt fear for his GF! The obsession seemed to be taking over any rational thinking process and kept escalating. I believe that many of us become obsessed, for a period of time. Especially when dealing with circumstances we can’t seem to move past. However, I think most of us go back and forth with how we react…..Obsessed for days, then another emotion takes over. Kind of back and forth. His MINDSET seemed so STRONG. Like she OWED him, what he WANTED from her. That is when I thought differently about his situation.
I often wonder about him and if time has helped him to move past his obsession with this girl?

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:03pm

Witsend, You and the others gave him superb advice, better than what many therapists would give him- at a bargain price too!lol . What he chooses to do with it is in his court now.Everyone desparately tried to reason with him, and with open arms welcome him to stay around. I like the honesty here, as no one wants to just hear “fake” support , I think we have all had enuf fake, false, tell-ya-what-ya-wanna-hear phonies in our life. BARF!

On the question others previously posted about feeling different now and wishing for our old selves back- With me, I am content for the first time in my life to NOT be in a relationship, to stay at home, and be pretty boring. But this new me is alien, and I am frustrated that I can’t seem to jump start my life and get back to former activities.

I wonder if this is NOW my life. I am still fighting bad isolation-underlying depression, not exercising much, no desire to get out with friends much.etc.
I dont miss life with the S – but I miss my former energy, zest for life, and carefree attitude. Wondering if I can get it back…

Has anyone else there been experiencing this kind of isolation? Worst part about it, is that I beat myself up over it, feeling bad that I no longer care so much about taking care of myself and so forth., I know that I should and owe it to myself, but the desire to really dosent exist..

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:29pm

Dearest sabrina, I think you, like so many of us, are having a perfectly normal reaction to what is really Post Traumatic stress disorder. Soldiers get this after coming home from a war zone.And lets face it, we have all been in a war zone for years and years! with me, it feels like a fog thats jus now starting to lift round the edges, and a glimpse of sun coming through. We are so used to second guessing ourselves, as someone put it,”they are living, rent free in our heads!”We are so HARD on ourselves,friends and family mostly dont get it, this website is a revelation to me, finally Im starting to have light bulbs go off !Technically, its a wonder we are still sane{ish!} and functioning, so we should cut ourselves some slack, and be kind to ourselves.Have a massage, a new hairdo, a few days holiday if you can, read a few books,pamper your inner child! Remember god loves you and we are all here for you! And your godself, never ever will give up on you, all you need to do is get your get up and go back, and you will!!We need to forgive ourselves for not being perfect, and not knowing all the answers!! Love, and {{Hugs}!
geminigirl.XX

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 6:59pm

Sabrina,
From my past experience what you describe still seems like depression. Depression itself ZAPS all of our eneries. Add to that the “trama” of you X/P and more importantly your recent trama with your son……IT’S no wonder that the desire to “take care” of yourself doesn’t rate high on your daily things to do list.
Maybe medication can help? I have just started to see someone. I feel much the same of what you say….Not on meds yet but might be in my future?

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:00pm

“On a slightly different aspect of life with an NS,have any of you guys heard ofthe term”Gaslighting”?”

geminigirl,

“Are You Being Gaslighted? By Robin Stern, Ph.D.

Your husband crosses the line in his flirtations with another woman at a dinner party. When you confront him, he asks you to stop being insecure and controlling. After a long argument, you apologize for giving him a hard time. Etc..

http://www.enotalone.com/article/16906.html

Whenever my ex s/p tried this on me it never work for her so her attempt to “gaslight” me were few and far in between, guess that just another reason we fought so whenever she did try. I really hasn’t research it as much as I should but hope to do so later.

I applause you for seeking the truth whenever you revisited your old home. That must have took courage and the need to know the truth! No doubt this “gaslighting abuse” works for as you stated the physical proof was undeniable.

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:22pm

geminigirl

Thanks for the ideal, I think it might make a good entry on my blog concerning “gaslighting”. Like I stated I never gave this much thought and need to catch up on this type of “mental abuse”.

Thanks

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 7:57pm

Thanks for the feedback,james! Id never heard of gaslighting till I found it on a narcissist website a week ago. Im now finding that “lightbulbs’ are going off all over the place, but unfortunately they are dredging up all sorts of painful experience that I thought Id blocked out. Like when my daughter,{then about 17, and I suspect she was on drugs, started screaming t me, and hurling encyclopedias at my head.I ran next door in my nightie, and asked the old aldy next door if I could call the police from her phone. She said yes, so I rang them. When they arrived, my ex husband said to them,”Youve got it all wrong, officer. My wife abuses my daughter, not the other way round! Also she is mentally unstable,{me] and promiscuous. ” Theysaid,”We quite understand sir! Say no more!” and left me with them. After he beat me up and I left to stay with a male friend,]non sexual, just a good friend,} I went back to that nightmare house after 3 weeks, still badly bruisedin the face. My ex said to my two girls

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:43pm

Your welcome geminigirl

Wow what a nightmare! Remember my brush with the law a few times with my ex s/p. Guess we all have stories about late night phone calls too police. Having them lie just as easily to the police like they lied to us. What surprises me is how one minute they are trying to kill you and then (after the police come) they sit there claim as can be unless they act distraught for it’s effect…Sad..

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 8:53pm

Dearest Geminigirl, OMGosh! You have been thru alot I have been trying to catch up on your posts as well, and I am so sorry that you have been thru so much. It really makes me angry to imagine these things being done to you. Im just praying that you are healing and am glad you are here. THank you for posting your stories, and know that we care deeply.

Witsend- I just finished past posts when Oxy and Ltl were all concerned about your situation with your son! Those were the first that I’ve read that you expressed concern for your safety like this. Things have escalated, I hate to hear this, but not entirely surprised at all. I agree with the advice of keeping aware of your safety at all times with him.

My downfall when violence erupted with my son (he grabbed me and threw me down/ turned over furniture, etc.) was that I DID NOT realize the potential of him becoming violent with me- I was in denial. Signs were there (here we go again with seeing red flags). He had knocked a hole in the wall before when in a rage.
I think before I mentioned to you that when you are in arguement with him ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep a SAFE distance. In a rage, it is too easy since they have no impulse control to begin with, to reach over and grab you.

I bounced from one extreme to the other from being super paranoid about my safety, to just being too tired and stressed to think about it anymore. Sometimes during the trauma of it all, I kind of zoned out, a coping mechinism no doubt that I sort of fantasized that nothing was wrong in my life, that none of it was real.
But it was real, and I am making it thru it as you will as well. I just can imagine the conflicts that you are mentally going thru. As you, I mourned the fact that no one was around to be the heavy. No male dominant force to keep my son in line. Although, sadly even if you had someone else there- you son still could not be controlled.
My advice- which you may or may not agree, is to avoid the arguements as much as possible. Thats not to say that you are to give in to him- NOT at all, but a war of words dosent get you anywhere ecsept stressed and could escalate into more. ACTIONS speak more than words.
He may only respect you if he knows that you are fully prepared to call the police, or whatever actions needed to handle his bad behavior.
Fear is the only thing they(somewhat) respect.
Mostly,the threat of jail is only a MILD deterent but it provides some leverage as jail is uncomfortable for these superiorly entitled individuals.
My son hated me for “sending him to jail” as he saw it, but he always knew I wouldnt hesitate if it were necessary in my eyes. He even made comments to his friends like-” NO, we cant go to Mom’s to hang out, she will call the cops on me!”

My son for years has made sarcastic remarks about the fact that I have and will put him in jail . I think it may be the only thing that has kept him less violent with me,as he has given his current gf 3 black eyes, and Im sure way more violence than I will ever know. Im not trying to keep on and on about my situation, this is about yours, but Im hoping in some small ways my experiences may help as I see alot of similarities, take care. xoxox

Monday, 22 June 2009 @ 11:44pm

Sabrina,
It is something I have to remind myself about, often. My son has not yet ever put a hand on me. However I believe I saw his capacity for it. It’s in him. At this particular time there was a power struggle between us. He wanted to do something and I was not allowing it. His anger escalated at a faster pace than I have seen before and he had what I can only describe as a wild, raw look in his eyes. He took steps towards me, to get into my space…And I actually took steps back, away from him. I took his coming towards me as being aggressive. I FELT unsafe. I saw in him the potential to “go there”. It was during this period of time (couple of really bad weeks, where everything seemed to escalate from bad to worse) That I became aware of the fact that I didn’t just fear FOR him, for what his life might be like with whatever disorder he has….But I had developed fear OF him as well.

This has not repeated itself since that time. I also have not put myself in that kind of position since then. I believe his anger escalated so quickly because he was luring me into the war of words, so to speak. I have tried very hard to walk away from word wars since then.

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 12:48am

After deb threw the heavy iron at my head, an elderly pastor who ran a prayer group in his home cme to see me. he told me that deb [at that time she was about 17or 18} hadan evil spirit in her which came and went. he called it a "walk-in". he told me what to do if I was ever alone with he in the house, if she threatend me with violence. he said,"Point to he, and say,Put that down,{whatever the object of attack was}and in the name of jesus Christ, I rebuke you, satan!" Well, I thought this was a bit over the top and wasnt sure if I believed all this satan, evil spirit business. however, I had occasion soon after to put it to the test. My ex was going out, driving a cab for some spare money, and he told Deb she was to stay home and do all the ironing for me, and was only allowed togo out when she had finished it. Then he left me with her. She went into her room, ironed one shirt, and then cam out and said,"Im going out now, and you cant stop me!" I said. "Dad says you are to finish all the ironing, and then maybe Ill let you go out." At this, she picked up one of our heavy bar stools, held it over her head, and yelled,"You f---ng bitch! get out of my way, or Ill break this over your head!"
I started to shake, as she is tall and well built, but remembered what the old pastor had told me to do. I pointed at her, and,{not using the word satan], I said,In the nameof jesus Christ, I orderyou to put that down, and go and finish the ironing!”. Well! she put it down, loking like a stunned Ox.
Went off, was half an hour doing all the ironing, and this is what really scared me sh–tless, said in a little girl voice,
“Ive done allthe ironing Mummy, can I go out now, please?”
yes, you can I said.”Thank you Mummy,!” still in this little girl voice. I sat on the top stepof the stairs, and shook, for half an hour. “Harold,{the pastor}, had been right! Maybe it WAS a walk in!The walk in {if it was such,} came and went for years, and Im still not even sure if shes free of it today.

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 2:13am

Sabrina

Re your post from yesterday. Does this give you any hope? (read on).

The isolation and lack of your old zest for life – well I have been stuck in that for over a year now. In the past few weeks, however, I have somehow found the impetus to grab hold of myself and get moving. I felt absolutely paralysed all of last year – it was like been gripped by a terrible fear, yet there was no threat. I felt so humilated, embarrassed and ashamed and couldn’t face old friends very easily.

Today, I went on a 35 mile cycle ride with one of my oldest friends – we got soaked, we laughed at ourselves and each other – and with each other. It was a great day. A month ago, I couldn’t have imagined that I’d be doing this. Something in me has suddenly ’shifted’. I am starting to put my welfare at the top of my list (not at the expense of others – as with S/N/Ps).

A few days ago, I had the worst day in such a long time – I cried on and off the whole day, couldn’t eat, couldn’t relax – it was awful. I was wrestling with my current circumstances – nightmare financial mess (due to the S and his manipulations and conning). The following day, I sat down and took a long hard look at what I could change with this and have put the wheels in motion to take some pressure off myself – although it meant sacrificing a long term investment and goal so that I am able to stay afloat. I realised that, if I didn’t do this NOW, I wouldn’t be able to muster the strength the move out of this black hole.

I truly understand when you say that you have no desire to get out with friends, exercise etc and the depression IS terribly debilitating. I think you HAVE to tackle the islolation first. I had to reach out to people to bring them back into my life – and when I did, they were there for me – it wasn’t instant but, little by little, I am engaging with the world again. Being around people who treat you with respect and affection is very healing – when I say affection, I don’t be pandering to you and arms around you stuff, just being easy in your company and allowing you to do the same – no games, no names, no agendas – it restores us to sanity – I think.

You have to start somewhere and when one is depressed, it’s often hard to get motivated to do things on your own – like exercising – so maybe the people could be a starting point for you? Why punish yourself any longer? Just a thought……

All love

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 11:57am

GeminiGirl, thankyou so much for sharing. Your stories have me at the edge of my seat waiting to hear more!!
I believe in what you are saying about the possibility of Deb having the “walk in” demonic spirit your pastor spoke of. I know some people may not be open to the concept, but I have been exposed in my lifetime to similar situations, and I believe wholeheartedly as I’ve seen evidence of this also.

The bible verifies this in ephesians 6: 12 (had to look this up!)” we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalites,against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness…”
It goes on to say -(to protect ourselves from evil) to take up the whole armour of God- truth..righteousness.. and above all Faith ,to enable you to extinquish the “fiery” darts of the wicked. verse 19- says to pray in order for words to be “fearlessly” given to you to make the gospel known. (kind of what you did when saying “In the name of Jesus”)
(Words are powerful!)
This is just more evidence that the Bible is our road map and EVERY answer can be found by applying His word to Our situation. Thanks GeminiG for reinterating the fact that we are NOT ALONE in the fight against good and evil. We have

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 1:32pm

Escapee- Thankyou so much for sharing your story and where you are at with all of us. Yes, its does help me so much.

I am about 10 mos N/C with x n/p but only recently with my P son. I think I delayed the realization with my son that he is toxic b/c I literally could not take on both situations simultaneously. I was in shock that both of them (altho not related) are dangerous human beings. My “hope” for my son was that maybe other dysfunctions were present- something that medications could help- being a S, to me is pretty much a death sentence. Sorry to be so honest?? in my glim feelings/assessments. I wasn’t ready to give up hope that something could change him- AND anything is possible, BUT I am facing what it is TODAY.

It means so much to me, Escapee that you shared your story and like me, you probally dont talk to many others about it. Most people cant handle the direness of it all, and in discovering the “evil” that walks among us, makes some uncomfortable to the point of sticking their heads in the sand.

I percieve alot of that reaction to be fear based and their own weaknesses. I say that , not as judgemental, but as I have been there myself- “Pretending” that these people dont exist is the “WORST” reaction, as you are a sitting duck for those who prey on the unknowing,weaker defenders of their boundaries and personal space.
This is a safe place to be “real.” EVEN in this isolation I am going thru- as ya’ll suggested- PTSD, depression maybe ???? I dont really feel “depressed” per se. Mostly my spirits are up and am thankful that I am content where I am in life.
Know what I mean? I just know that I cant go on forever missing out on the life that is out there. My daughter deserves to have an outgoing Mom again.
Escapee, good for you for getting out with your friend, how fun and wonderful!!! I will meditate on that uplifting picture in my mind!! take care ..xoxox
P.S. Escapee, I hope you didnt feel like on a previous post, days ago that I was tryin to push my beliefs on you or others. I am sorry if it did. I just know that my faith has made ALL the difference, and I have experienced real evidences of GOds love and my intent for sharing as I have is ONLY due to my desire to help others to achieve that peace. But no “force feeding” of my beliefs were ever intended!:) I respect others immensely.

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 2:08pm

Witsend- I wanted to respond to you also as my time later today is short. I can identify with where you are right now with your son. You are in the discovery stages about your son, in this you are more able to formulate your game plan BASED IN REALITY, not speculation or pie in the sky wishes.

Thank goodness you have this knowledge learned at LF- you are far ahead of the game than I was years back! I was clueless on personality disorders!! You wont make the same mistakes OVER and OVer that I did.

When you take out “beat your head against the wall til you bleed” reasoning tactics with him- You’ve just saved yourself HOURS of exhaustion.
Its like you already have the play book, a glimpse of his reality. After the sadness of it all subsides somewhat, and the reality is there in front of you (as I am right now) you can make “educated” decisons, not so much hit or miss as we have before.
Not to say that you can EVER predict what he may do next- but you darn sure KNOW what he WONT do- which is nothing that dosent benefit HIS needs in some way. I cried for months, years over the possibilty of losing my son- never having a real life with him- but you know what? After years of his crazy making, Its A RELIEF to not have any contact with him- when I face the truth of what he is like to be around.
You are not at that place yet or your decision may not be as mine was- but know that time has a way of taking care of alot of things.
You are surviving with him right now and thats the best you can do is to accept it. I say this b/c accepting my son for “what it is” was the hardest for me. THe pain I felt whenever others talk about their “normal” children has lessened. I dont continue to yearn for what is not (as much). My thoughts and prayers are with you!

Tuesday, 23 June 2009 @ 2:36pm

You said it all in your post on Saturday June 20, just after midnight here….and the black mail they are using with your grandchildren and “seeing” them still isn’t going to let you have a relationship with those children, even at the PRICE the girls are “charging you” and in my estimation the price is too high, WAY too high. I think you have decided the same thing. It is a shame, of course, for both you and the kids, but it isn’t something that YOU can control.

You are a fortunate woman to have your wonderful husband and another chance to live a peaceful and good life with a loving companion—-I am glad that you have chosen to NC your daughters and get on with your life. It is a difficult decision I know, I am NC with almost all of my family except for two sons, and my husband is deceased, but even if you were totally ALONE you would be bette roff than with these blood sucking relatives! BE STRONG!!!! It is worth it!!!

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 8:41am

Absolutely don’t feel you or anyone else here pushes any beliefs on any other. I posted a few days ago to James that I ‘envy’ (hate that word because it implies a jealousy or a wanting to take away from another but in the absence of any other…) your faith. I think it is great to have a belief in a ‘higher power’ – it must be a huge comfort at times to feel that there is some benevolent god up there watching over you / helping you.

Hope you can muster the energy to reclaim and take ownership of your life again – keep posting for strength … maybe say a prayer to your god on my behalf and others here who are struggling in recovery. Thanks girl!

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 9:08am

Escapee-You are a really cool person and absolutely, I prayed for you and this entire site for God’s love to be revealed in the lives represented here.
You guys here give me renewed faith that genuine,good people are plentiful!
I did go have sushi with a friend last nite, work out at gym, and listen to karoake for awhile at a little bar in town. WOW! Big night out for me. I see glimpses of the old me, she’s still hanging around, just waiting to get back out!

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 1:00pm

Glad you had a good night.

Me too – went to see ‘Take That’ at Manchester Cricket Ground with some other old Birds – what a laugh – it’s good to be entertained and around sincere friends – all helps in reclaiming your life. Cycling again tomorrow with ‘old knees’ (another good buddy) – this was not my schedule a few weeks ago and it feels good to be back amongst the ‘land of the living’ after such a long absence.

Thanks for your prayers and keep ‘digging’ for the old you.

Keep the faith and keep posting for strength.

All love.

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 6:54pm

Sabrina,
Just wanted you to know that I won’t be on for a few days. Unless I have a bit ot time tomorrow before I leave. Going to a show to sell my wares.
I am doing a show a few hours from my house and my friend and I packed her trailer today (it was 90 degrees, ugh) and we are pretty much set to go.
Then another friend of mine called and asked me to take her booth at a really GREAT show (the one I do is a piggy back show to the GREAT one). I am very excited. I have wanted to do this show for many years and was unable to get in. (waiting list) There is alot of potential to make money at this show and this is the last year it will be held at this location.
Yay!!! This is great news and a good one time opportunity.
Just wanted to let you know that I would be away for a couple of days…..

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 7:00pm

Witsend,
Awesome News! Im glad you let us know that you will be out a few days. Im so excited for you!! Prayers that you will make lots of money! What is it that you sell at the shows? I think it will be really good for you to get away from everything and focus on something different like this show. It really seems to re energize and give a better outlook. Have fun girl.. Hope to “talk to you” soon!!! Best wishes for success!

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 10:49pm

Escapee- GOod that you are also branching out! Always good to laugh and hang out with the girls!! I love the progress that is being made here with so many of us. I will be busy rest of the week at work with not alot of time to sit around, so its really a good thing. Have fun cycling!

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 10:54pm

Sabrina.
So glad that you are getting out and having some fun and fellowship with friends! Once you can take the first steps and “get out some” I think it is easier to keep taking care of yourself. I think a social life is part of taking care of oneself, don’t you?

I sell antiques at the shows I do. This is an outdoor show on the property (of the promoter)with a genuine 1800s antique log house that these people actually live in full time. It is a wonderful historic log home.
In this economy antique shows and sales are naturally down.
I am hoping that because this is the last show at this location, attendance will be good and sales decent.

Wednesday, 24 June 2009 @ 11:11pm

2MUCH2TAKE says:

After reading the information on forgiveness, I realize that I am not ready. I am full of rage and anger. I am still allowing myself to be victimized. I believe that I am angry at myself for allowing this conniving, calculating individual with no morals, or loyalty get the best of me time and time again. He only “collected” me. Obsessed over me. Has punished me for leaving him once before. I have been nothing more than an item. Only a face the he found nice to look upon. Not a person with a heart, and feelings, and blood running through my veins. I am at my tipping point. I need desparately to get out. I am thankful to know that I am not alone, as this website would not exist. I cannot take anymore. I need help and strenght. I feel so lost. So lonely. I guess I need to start at the beginning of this website and work through it. Thank you for being out there!

Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 7:58pm

Dear 2MUCH2TAKE,

WELCOME!!! No, unfortunately, you are NOT alone, our name is LEGION, there are many of us. We have all been through the “mill” of the psychopaths, the anger and the sadness, the abuse and the pain.

I’ve been here for nearly two years and still learn more every day, more about them, but more importantly MORE ABOUT MYSELF—while I allowed them to target me. Not that I was to ‘blame” because they targeted me, but I was targeted because I was a “good, kind and caring” person who wanted to believe the best of others–especially those I loved.

Now I am learning how to be cautious with whom I trust, to put myself first before taking care of others.

I suggest you read all the old archived articles (save the comments for later) and realize that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER, and gain the knowledge you need to heal yourself and get out of the clutches of the psychopath! Again, welcome—you are in a good place here, stay a while! oxy

Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 9:24pm

shabbychic says:

2MUCH2TAKE: Hi. I think we all pretty much started in the same place you are in. As OxDrover says, there are a lot of articles and posts to read!! They will really really help you!!!! Stick around and keep writing!

Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 9:48pm

2MUCH2TAKE, welcome to LoveFraud. It sounds like you’ve found the right place to get support.

But not not necessarily the right article. Don’t even think about forgiving (unless it’s forgiving yourself). We get to forgiving (which is really just deciding to boot them out of our brains) MUCH later.

Right now, it sounds like you’re angry and that’s a GOOD THING, especially if it impels you to get out of this toxic relationship. There are lots of people here who have been through this. And lots of advice if you need it.

You said that you’re angry with yourself too. We all feel like that at some point. But the truth is that you didn’t ask for this. If he wasn’t the kind of person he is, your experience would have been entirely different.

And they are hard to deal with. Seductive and persuasive in the beginning (or when they’re trying to hold onto us), and then abusive and hurtful in ways that grind down our self-esteem.

You never deserved this. The problem is his, not yours. And if you have any doubt, you are entitled to take care of yourself. To get out of there. To protect yourself. And to make a new and better life.

Please keep writing. We’re glad you found us.

Wednesday, 8 July 2009 @ 10:44pm

2Much2Take

Just caught up with LF after a short break. Welcome to the site. I have only been coming here for a short while but after over a year of NC – no contact (apart from a few sporadic attempts by the creep to keep control) I was still struggling. It took me many attempts to ‘get away’ – always falling back into the trap of falling for his ‘hot air’ and pretty words – not, of course, backed up with any substance – I did get away. I wish I had come to this site 4 years ago – it would have saved me alot of pain, I believe, and given me the strength to stay away the first time I realised that this was a ‘nasty piece of work’.

I became more and more isolated – this is what they do to you – from genuine friends and family – all the people who would have told me to dump him – had I told them what was going on.

They use this mechanism to ‘isolate’ and ‘introvert’ you, so that you have only them. Don’t fall for all his criticisms about the others around you – start building up your support network (I am assuming you have probably reached the point where people that were in your life have been distanced from you – it’s classic behaviour) and keep posting he for reinforcement, validation of your feelings and thoughts and for strength.

I hope this will help you along with the insights and sharing of the other posters on this site.

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 2:02am

Advocate55 says:

As I have started to understand the ‘forgiveness’..this article surely has brought me to a greater understanding of healing through the process of forgiveness. I thank you for that this important information.
Over the years, so many things have happened to me and walking in forgiveness enables me to move forward, even though the person continues to do certain things that are very emotional damaging to me and my family.
Having a strong faith system in place, supported by friends and family and joining groups such as this, only bring greater levels of healing to myself.
Even the sharing of my story is healing. Because of the trust being broken over a period of 16 years..trust is another major area of my life, that continue to heal. Without trust, I cannot enter into any relationship, with strong faith I can.
Truly healing from all kind of abuses, betrayals, etc..is a journey of healing, one day at a time.

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 10:36am

Advocate, thank you posting. Your faith is inspirational.

I want to say something that I’m not sure I said well enough in the article. This was not about forgiveness, the state, but forgiving, the practice. And the kind of forgiving we’re talking about has nothing to do with them. It’s choosing how much we want to think about this.

You said this person is continuing to act in hurtful ways. This is a very difficult situation, because it’s not healthy to ignore a new trauma. You have to pay attention to it, check out the damage, make sure you’re okay. And at minimum, have a little grieving-and-letting go session for the peacefulness that was lost to this event. Then, if you want, you can decide that you’re not going to give it anymore head space.

Maybe you can. But maybe you’ve got a continuing problem that will require more attention from you. I mean, it’s not enough to find a way to tolerate continuing abuse. I don’t think it is. Not if you’re actually planning on having a life that is happy and fulfilling.

I don’t know your story. I don’t know what you mean when you say this person’s actions are emotionally damaging to you and your family. But maybe you can do something about your reactions. Maybe you can reframe the situation somehow so that you don’t care. Like coming to a personal conclusion that this person is simply deranged and not worth paying attention to. Or find some smart, little strategy to neutralize this particular type of emotional damage. Like if that person is spreading lies about you, you just role your eyes if someone reports them to you, and say, “Oh, that’s typical of so-and-so” and walk away or change the subject.

Trust will heal in you when you are more certain of your ability to take care of yourself. If you aren’t yet, you might be jumping the gun on trying to forgive. I know we all do these things in our own order, but I really do believe that having good defenses and a refined awareness of what problem people look like is the biggest step toward recovering trust in ourselves. And when we trust ourselves, it’s easier to have a little more confidence in the rest of the world.

The other thing about trust is that it’s not a state. Like forgiving, it’s a practice. As we go back into the world with this new knowledge, we are also smarter about trust. We trust conditionally, but not permanently or completely until someone has really earned our trust over time. Or we are “trust neutral,” being friendly but careful, until we have enough time with that person to see whether they are trustworthy. But in all of this, we are fully prepared to withdraw anytime we discover that our trust is not earned.

This is what we learn in all of this. And it enables you to not wait for trust to be restored. But simply to learn new habits. It is a journey of many steps, and it sounds like you’re working on it.

Thanks for posting.

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 11:09am

Rosa says:

Hi 2Much2Take:

It sounds like the mask is gone. You are seeing him for what he really is. That is a huge step. It took me forever to get out of the FOG.

You also found LoveFraud, which is huge.
I have learned things on this site that I did not even plan on learning!!! LoveFraud is like a treasure chest filled with little nuggets of wisdom, healing, and comfort, especially during a time like what you are going through now.

I don’t know the details of your relationship, so I don’t know how difficult it will be for you to get away from this man. But, you are realizing that you “desperately need to get out”. Again, that is HUGE.

I would tell you to start reading and educating yourself as much as possible. OxDrover said it, “Knowledge is Power.” And what you need right now is to emPOWER yourself to get out of a toxic relationship.

“Has punished me for leaving him once before.”
Please be careful 2Much2Take. This man sounds like he could be dangerous.

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 11:45am

Hello~ I posted on another part mistakeny! So, in case you don’t see it I just wanted to say Thank You. I read what you people wrote and cried. First time in a long time. I could FEEL something. Understanding. I know I have much work to do. I needed to be validated. No one else knows how smooth these people are. He has never hit me. Just extreme mental and emotional abuse. He is kind to everyone else. Goes overboard to be nice. Buys their loyalty. Then when I erupt, they think it’s me. He has exploited me for years. I am left morally, spiritually, emotionally and mentally bankrupt. But I finally feel like a part of who I am is rising out of the ashes. I will be around, I think I am going to start at the begining of these chapters and try and empower myself. Knowledge IS power. I had no idea whatsoever people could be so cruel. Never, ever, ever, again. So much of what you guys said resonates to the core of me. Trust condidionally. I have no trust. In myself or anyone else. The longer I am away from him, the better I do. And Rosa, I think you are right. I don’t think he would hurt me if I socialized, however, I think the people I socialize with would be a target. Especially if they were men. Thanks, Ox, Shabby, Escapee (LOL), and Kathy your wisdom is truly a tool to become free. God grant me that blessing. Thanks, I have some reading to do!

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 3:17pm

I am finding it almost impossible to forgive my daughter, as she has never once apologised for any of the truly rotten things she has done to me. Ive asked her for one apology to cover all the abusive incidents,[too many and awful to list here}, but she has never replied to this request, and I dont suppose she ever will, as in her eyes she id faultless and blameless. In the past she has managed to 'gaslight" me and make me the awful, selfish person, even as I {foolishly] continued togive her huge sums of money and fall for her lies yet again.I cant get closure if she refuses to say sorry,I cant get over the anger, [mainly at myself for letting her sucker punch me time after time.} She wont reply to my letter, setting boundaries,so I have no choice but to go NC. Im doing quite well,-it was hard on her Birthday, but I reminded myself that she has never ever even sent me a card on my Birthday!
Her ex husband is seeing a psychiatrist, after 15 years of lies from her, he is screwed up too.he isa great guy, and has promised to bring the kids over when we get back from our Holiday.Maybe I cant forgive her, but I can forgive myself, and make myself a promise, NO MORE! and permanent NC, even tho I still worry about her. I know she doesnt give a rats arse about me, or David!! Love, and thanks, geminigirlXX

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 10:08pm

geminigirl: amazing that you have asked for ONE apology, and she won’t even do that, how sad, for you and her. I am also working on forgiving myself for letting people walk all over me. Good to hear that you will be able to see the kids, that makes me happy!! Stay strong and follow your heart.

Thursday, 9 July 2009 @ 11:37pm

Thanks, shabby chic!No, she wont even give me one. I asked for a blanket apology for all the rotten things she has done,{the worst being to ban me from her wedding in 1994,} She was 8 months pregnant, the wedding was doomed anyway,-her poor long -suffering husband stood it as long as he could, and got out 3 years ago. She invited my present husband,and my ex,but told me I was banned! Id just sent her $1,000 as a wedding present!
The only way I could cope with my breaking heart was to take myself off to Greece for 3 weeks by myself.Ive come to realise they have No conscience, are never wrong,everything is always the other persons fault.You cant reason with them. Thanks to all you great guys on Lovefraud, I am finding this NC gets easier by the day, I am feeling happier, and more at peace, and my bank balance is recovering! Im still scared of her ringing up in tears, as in the past, her tears ,{crocodile or otherwise} have torn at my gut. Im determined that if she rings me, I will say,”Until and unless you agree to my boundaries, ie, apologise, then I dont want to have anything to do with you. Goodbye!”.That way, the door is not completely closed, but the ball is firmly in her court. Another thing,-can anyone tell me what is the long term future for NSs? As they run out of suckers to use, flounce out of one too many jobs,[because it was the bosses fault}cant pay their bills and rent, and cant sucker punch family any more, what is to become of them? It cant be a good future for them!Much love and thanks! geminigirlXX

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 12:38am

geminigirl, don’t worry about forgiving. You can’t do it, because you’re not there yet. There is a path, a sequence of healing. That’s why I wrote these articles in sequence. We may be doing different parts on different threads of our lives. So you might be ready to forgive some other things. But with your daughter, you’re in another part.

It’s really important for you to be doing the anger stage right now. You have been accepting so much bad treatment without taking care of yourself. And now you’re drawing a line.

You are identifying her as the problem, not you. You’re no longer taking responsibility for her rotten behavior. You didn’t cause it. You can’t fix it. The only relationship you could possibly have to it is to be a victim. And you’ve decided to stop doing that.

The angry phase sounds like it’s just one thing, getting mad. But it’s a lot more than that. It’s also about recognizing in ourselves the feelings that rise when we’re threatened, when someone is going to hurt us or take something from us. Because you want to learn how to act when it occurs. Instead of accepting and accepting, and then having all the toxins of this built up resentment in your emotional system and your body.

Right now, you’re dealing with a lot of backed-up anger. And that’s good. You need to go through it as much as you need to, event by event, and say “This was not right, not fair to me, not respectful to me as a person. And this was bad for me.” That is a good definition of bad. If something is bad for you, it’s bad. You don’t have to second-guess yourself or apologize for how you feel. It’s very simple.

And if it’s bad for you, you are entitled to defend yourself or do whatever you have to do to get this thing out of your life, and to preserve your health, your resources and your mental wellbeing.

That’s another part of the angry phase, developing those skills. Part of it is just saying “no.” Which is what you’re saying to your daughter no. No, I don’t want this in my life. No, this doesn’t work for me. No, I don’t want you around me, go away.

Part of it is developing more skills of awareness so that you recognize these people when they show up, and respond more quickly. So you can take care of things on the spot.

Finally, the stage of anger is also about mastering these feelings and these skills. So that ultimately, you don’t get overwhelmed by anger, but just recognize it as your alert system. A message from your survival center that you need to pay attention and possibly act.

When you master the skills of anger, you’ll be mastering the skills of personal power in a defensive sense. You won’t have to look angry or be abrupt with people. You can smile and be polite, while you divert a conversation from something you don’t want to discuss. Or graciously express your sympathy when someone is giving you a pity play, and say you hope they can sort it out (but not offer to help). Or smoothly deflect insults or disrespectful behavior by saying that you’re too busy to talk right now.

Above all, this is a time when you start developing conscious personal boundaries. A sense of what you will and won’t allow in your life.

This is a tremendous important time for someone who has suffered abuse for a long time. And because of it, has become shaky about your own entitlements. You are entitled to take care of yourself.

You’ll get to forgiveness later, when you feel secure in all this and you can afford to be forgiving, because she can’t hurt you anymore. Right now, stick with the muscle-building. It’s good for you.

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 9:42am

Being in a state of forgivness. Totally aware of any tramua caused by currrent events from a unstable ex husband..I am in control of how I react..and taking care of myself..thanks for your comments..this site brings get empowerment and support..

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 9:57am

Advocate, thanks for popping back into this thread. I wrote the previous post to you on too little information. I was concerned that you were trying to leapfrog to forgiveness — as some people understandably want to — without taking the time to develop strong boundaries and also learning to comfort yourself first, before you worry about forgiving anyone else.

But I’ve read your other posts and I can see you’ve been working on this for a long time. I’ve been really lucky in that my ex just disappeared, and doesn’t keep zooming back into my life like a two-ton blood-sucking mosquito. I’ve has something like that with certain family and work situations, but nothing as long-term annoying and energy-consuming as what you’re dealing with.

Your equanimity is impressive. I’m glad you find support here. I have a feeling you could give advice to some of us who are dealing with people who refuse to go away and leave us alone.

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 11:28am

Thanks Kathy..for all the support..today, I am standing my ground..taking care of myself..knowing what I am dealing with has made a big difference in my life..I actually do online work..on myspace and facebook..my specialized work..is: Child Sexual Abuse..but the work I do..involves Domestic Violence..currently working on going back to college to obtain my BA in Criminal Justice…for Victim Advocacy..
Again..glad to part of this site..I live near Donna Anderson..found this site after researching about sociopaths..

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 2:09pm

Advocate, we have at least one other person on this site whose profession sounds something like what you’re doing. Her name is justabouthealed, and you might watch for her posts.

It would be interesting to find out how many of us around turning our experiences into careers. My belief — and it’s embedded in this healing path — is that we ultimately turn these disasters around into something great in our lives.

Congratulations of what you’re doing. You’ve found a great place to do research, and to find friends.

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 2:55pm

For me..healing means..giving back..sharing the gifts of healing and empowerment with others..glad that I am here..

Friday, 10 July 2009 @ 3:16pm

justabouthealed says:

Kathy,

What I’ve had to work on is forgiving ME. Maybe that is a different step in this process, but I’m posting here.

This morning, while half asleep still in bed, I pictured myself on trial for my role in all this, and though I entered the plea of guilty, the jury voted me not guilty, entirely. So did the psychiatrist I saw, so did the therapists I saw, so did my husband. It has just been a tough road to forgive myself. You know I harp on “no bad guy, no problem”. But perhaps I harp on it so much, because it has been so hard to forgive myself for my contribution to the whole mess.

but even if I were guilty, I think the judge would say I’ve already served the time. I’ve been beating up on myself for two years. One has to ask what I’m getting out of that. I guess lessons learned, a determination to never be so blind, so unethical, so “people pleasing”, such as wuss again, but all that is hard for me too. Just “trying to get it through MY thick skull”. I used to be so unassertive that if a bus driver told me I should have correct change, I would burst into tears as soon as I was out of his sight.

I am so assertive, so much a “speak truth to power” person in my work, and often doing work that requires bravery, and so comfortable with public speaking to large audiences, that people who know me in that environment would be flabbergasted to see the me that could be wilted by the narcissiopath. Or the me that still has buttons that a man can push that devastate my self-confidence. I have a very hard time with an angry man in intimate relationships, even family relationships. I’m trying to get over all that.

And part of it is forgiving myself for the past, and realizing that my past need not define who I am today.

Thursday, 30 July 2009 @ 11:36am

ThornBud says:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....ure=fvste2

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 7:11am

kim frederick says:

Very nice clip, Thornbud, thanks.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 8:15am

skylar says:

I’m wondering how to forgive someone who still want you dead. I’ve heard it’s possible. But I think it involves pity and I’m not supposed to pity.

I’ve heard of, “forgive them Father for they know not what they do.” this from a man dying on a cross. But in my case HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING.

I want to move forward and forgive him, but how?

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 8:54am

Dear Skylar,

To me, “forgiveness” is not pretending it didn’t happen, or giving them another chance, it does NOT mean trusting them, it simply means, STOP BEING BITTER ABOUT IT, put it where it belongs, in the past and then NC and even if they are still trying to hurt you (my son would love to hurt me and I have no doubt is still lplotting) but I will NOT let the bitterness come through and damage me.

The Bible says we should forgive our enemies and those that hurt us, but if you will go back and re-read the story of Joseph whose brothers sold him into slavery, he forgave them a long time before they showed up in Egypt to buy corn, but he TESTED them to see if he could TRUST them before he even let them know who he was.

Carrying bitterness in our hearts hurts US, so the forgiving them is cleansing for US, but it doesn’t mean we trust them or associate with them. Just my take.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 9:22am

Skylar, I think what that quote really means is that they are spiritually disabled, that is to say, they don’t know what they are doing to themselves and the state of their own spiritual well-being. They are handicapped. I think some pity might be called for, in this sense, and I do think it helps in forgiving.

It doesn’t mean you re-enter the FOG with them, or sanction their behavior, you just accept what is and move on.

I also think that at some point in recovery, it helps to look at yourself. Where did I play a role in all this. It’s probably not something we should do early on, as we have been blamed for everything for soooo long, and we first need to realize the “It wasn’t you” part of it…and just be righteously angry. It all sounds so confusing, I know. I have had an intimate relationship with AA, in the past, and continue to be worked on by the twelve steps. They are a rich source for anyone trying to recover from anything, and they in fact have been working me this morning. Step four says we take a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Step five says we admit to God and to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs….

Not that I think you are guilty of anything. I guess this is just where I am this morning.

I think forgiveness is a process, and just wanting to forgive, doesn’t mean you can, yet. But it’s at least moving in the right direction.

I hope this helps, some. Don’t analyze so much. KISS. another tid-bit from AA. TOWANDA! a tid-bit from LF.

Kim,
He knows he is going to hell. he thinks he’s possessed. His solution to this is to take as many with him as possible. He revels in all things evil. So he DOES know what he’s doing to his soul. I think he doesn’t realize or want to realize that he has an option to change. Or that he is stupid, he doesn’t realize that.

I’m only bitter when I dwell on it, which I don’t often. It’s strange that I hate his minions more than I do him. I’m sure this is an error in my processing because HE recruited them. I think the pity is what keeps me from being bitter and hating him. I pity him but not his minions.

I guess it is ego to hate or to have pity. I need to rid myself of the ego. I’ve known that for a while but forgot. Ego is really hard to get rid of!

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 9:40am

blueskies says:

Skylar:) Just a little Blueskies tid-bit;) I have been trying to work through the fall out from my abuse at the hands of my parent(s) and one of the things I have been working /thinking on, is trying to find a way to forgive at this time. I find it almost impossible at this point in the process to honestly and heartfeltly do that… (I aint giving up on this process though)

so I am thinking about ‘what is the manifestation of opposite of forgiveness within me?’… well its hurt, anger, fear, pain… all living within me… poisoning me, making me ill.

now, I dont have a magic wand where I can wish them away just like that, but I can work on letting go of the hurt, letting go of the need, letting GO…. my plan is that when I have done a bit more letting go it will lead me to forgiveness…

BUT maybe this is a chicken and egg situation, which comes first?!:Dx

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 9:45am

Dear Blueskies,

Anger is normal when you have been wounded or hurt by something or some one.

Heck if you stub your toe on a chair, you get mad at the CHAIR! LOL that’s normal. It is hanging on to that anger forever and getting so bitter that you take the chair out and chop it up for fire wood! We stubbed our toes on psychopaths, just like the chair—we can’t take it more personally than if the chair was the cause of us stubbing our toes. If it was dark and we couldn’t see the chair we had no way of knowing, but our toe is still broken, but being mad and angry at the chair is about like being mad and angry about the psychopaths.

If they get in our paths we get hurt—period. We might as well let go of the anger and bitterness because they are just doing what psychopaths do when we run into them.
‘
If that makes any sense at all. It IS difficult to let go of the anger, but just NOT feeding it will eventually “starve” it to death and you will not feel so bitter against them. Focus on your HEALING rather than on what you are healing from as much, at least tht worked for ME.

I don’t think much about what my egg donor did to me, or the others either, and when I do think about it, it is more like an old movie I saw, not so much emotion connected to the “story” like it was at the time it happened but now I focus more on ME…on what helps me grow, what helps me be better, happier, more at peace, less stress, instead of saying within myself “that sorry so-and-so did such and such”

The anger and bitterness will kind of “fade away” (at least for me) and one day you just realize it isn’t there so much any more, unless you take it out and FEED it. I COULD work myself up into a big mad/anger/bitterness if I TRIED, but I work on avoiding that state of mind, and if it does come, I try not to “feed” or “pet” it while it is here….I do fall off the wagon every once in a while, like I did with the minister’s letter, but over all, I do okay with getting rid of the bitterness.

a friend in an e mail today called it “missplaced dominance behavior” and that is exactly what he was doing he was trying to express his dominance over me for the NS I had given him in my letter requesting he send back my paper work. I poked him with a verbal “stick” and he was responding. I should NOT HAVE RESPONDED by lettingit “get to” me.

Back to the drawing board, another lesson learned.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 10:42am

Oxy, thanks for this:)xx the Chair analogy makes loads of sense.

.. and ‘Focusing on your healing not what you are healing from’ is the best thing I have read today:) Going no contact with my ‘parent’, will give me a chance to do that, hmmm….at least start.

I am not totally NC right now I realise, she has not given up her attack , she is just doing it from afar, she’s in slander and deformation of character overdrive.

This week I have had concerned calls from three members of family who I seldom see, (none s/p/n’s) worried about me after being told (respectively and by her) that I was bi-polar, that I had schizophrenia and wished my sister’s baby dead, and that I had been fighting with the police!,…. I actually think I got pissed off for about a minute. Good going me. Not sure I would be so collected with ACTUAL contact from her though…. I think I would be more tempted to do the thing where I ask her why she would DO that… then get angry… no point trying to get answers out of a chair!

At first the focus so much on trying to find out ‘WHAT’ this person is (a chair;)I feel you need to do that, and I guess it does ‘feed the anger’, but then yes I totally agree, the focus needs to shift back on to you and your OWN healing, no point shouting and screaming at the Chair!

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 11:46am

To keep from being injured in the future, we just need to “turn the lights on” when we are moving around, and realize the CHAIR isn’g going to change or move out of our way, so we just have to “go no contact” with our toes! LOL Gosh, I have had so many literal (real) broken toes from stubbing them—you’d think I would learn to wear steel toed books or something! ha ha Anyway, you might as well be talking to the chair, it will listen as much as our P-parents.

NC does keep us from having NEW injuries. Your egg donor is doing the SMEAR campaign by telling everyone you are crazy (that way whatever you say won’t be valid) mine did the same to me—-my son d ran into one of my egg donor’s friends at the store the other day and she told him what a SAINT he was for staying with this delusional old person (me) and taking care of me!!!!!

So that is what they say about us and if we don’t pay it any attention or even “notice it”—-it doesn’t hurt us. Hard to do sometimes, but it gets easier the more you practice.

The BEST way (though I don’t always do it) is when someone starts saying what the P told them about you, or starts to discuss the P, is just CALMLY say, “I’d rather not discuss what P is doing, or what they think of me, that’s not germaine in my life right now.”

A lot of the time th eP is saying this to dupe the others into callilng you. My P son did that, he wrote letters to a bunch of folks and said he was “worried” something had happened to the family (after his P-trojan horse went to prison) and he hadn’t heard from Grandma (at that time she was NC with him) and he was concerned about her. She would answer th ephone and all these people would be so worried about her. she would at that time, say nothing except “I’m fine, thank kyou for calling. CLICK! and hang up.

Of course he kept on with the letters to her whining in some, pleading in others, pity play in some, anger in otehrs until she finally sent him money again. then it went down hill from there and she kept on reading.

That is why NC is so important whether we are victims or dupes, but dupes don’t “get it” and keep on listening to the lies. There may or will come a time I think when we can hear about them and not be “triggered”—just shake our head and sort of sigh and smile, “same old chit, different day” and let it wash right off our back. Some Ps just never seem to go away and get completely out of our lives.

I am financially forced to live here on the same farm with my egg donor, but my house is waaaay back in the woods and hers is on the highway. I see her house very seldom, and I try my best to stay away from that end of the farm, but sometimes I ahve to go out there and she is one of these that is peeping out the windows all the time so I know she most likely is watching me if she does see me out there.

That in itself used to really bother me, it was like a “black cloud” hung over that end of the farm. Not now…though. As long as she lives and the land (and the house belonging to me, and the one belonging to my son C, and the one belonging to her) are all tied up in the land trust, I have to stay here (at least keep this my legal address) but when she passes away, I can sell or keep the farm and the houses or do whatever with them….if the P-son gets any significant money, then I will feel that I need to sell and move elsewhere, but I can do that then…so in the meantime, I am just cautious, but I CAN NOT let it EAT at me and I won’t.

I think forgiveness is sort of just getting to the point that what they say is not able to hurt you any more….because you don’t CARE any more…you know what they are. You ACCEPT what they are. If you don’t care any more what their opinion is, their bad opinion doesn’t matter to you any more. It sort of makes you (almost) “Injury proof” from them running their mouths.

Realizing that we DID care, we did want to please them because we cared, at first hurts, but as we care less and less about pleasing them (first off because we know it is impossible) then we get to the point we stop trying to please them because we know it is only more pain to keep on trying.

NC gets to be automatic at that point I think. Cause I really really do NOT want a relationship with her….even if (and I know it is NOT going to happen) she truly repented and begged my forgivness I could never again trust her no matter what she did or said. I can’t ever see WANTING a relationship with her, or that there was ever anything she could do to make amends for what she has done. How could Hitler have made amends to the Jews? Yet, Dr. Viktor Frankl forgave the Germans for what they had done to him and to his people, because for HIMSELF to have a life afterwards, he HAD TO.

I strongly recommend that you read this book of his, “Man’s Search for Meaning” because it was what helped me to learn to accept and to forgive. ((((hugs))) and PEACE for us all!

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 12:19pm

Thank you again for you reply Oxy xx. I was quite amazed by myself when I realised everyone was so worried about my mental health(lol), because there was a definate ’same crap different day’ vibe going on for me.

So maybe another little bit of progress:)x

I am caring less and less about her and anything she does/says whatever, maybe that should read she is losing her power to hurt me.. (although i am talking about her now aren’t I?)

I have basically told anyone I am in contact with on a regular basis that might mention her, exactly your advice there, about not wanting to hear anything regarding her, so she went further afield! But ya know, she’ll run out of obscure relatives pretty soon:)x Also – she kinda shot herself in the foot by doing it, by exposing herself to people as a vindictive liar. Ho – hum…

thanks for the book recommendation:) I am still half way through Children of the self Obsessed…(told you I am a slllllllooooooooow reader… it’s really great though… some really great exercises, really helpful:)x
(((Big Hugs)) back Oxy. You really are an astounding human being. I hope I get to be as ‘delusional an old person’ as you are very soon! xxx MUCH love.blue.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 1:56pm

Opps I meant Children of the self absorbed. big dufus that I am:)x

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:12pm

Dear Oxy,
what to do if P/N who hurted u died, and u realized u was a victim AFTER he died?
NC by ur own will and decision offers some comfort, u feel as “things are in ur hands”, even this NC is sort of pinishment or revenge. It gives some satisfaction. No?
I am totally confused, cant stop thinking at my childhood, my N parents and damage they left on my soul

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:36pm

Thornbud:)xxx I am not so good at advice, so I look forward to hearing other’s responses:) But I have to tell you your question really resonates with me.

My father died, he was a narc with a penchant for young girls, 13 – 15 (and they’re called…) and he died suddenly.

Now even though he didnt hit or touch us,his children, his behaviour had a PROFOUND effect on us as children and adults.

I had a REAL struggle after he died dealing with being bereft for someone I LOVED and dealing with the fact that the person I loved did so much damage to so many people’.

BIG stuff to work out… but it’s quite interesting, especially after what Oxy was talking to me about above that I feel ‘done’ with that now.

It’s hard for me to explain, but I was briefly talking to my Niece about it last night and I realised that I had ‘done’ all the exposing, searching looking, trying to find where it all fitted in…and it didnt…but somehow I had stepped away from it all together. … I had dealt and its over.

So I guess what I am saying is that it IS possible to work through this stuff, maybe never getting an ANSWER but getting to a point where you can really, really let go. (disclaimer…it does have to be gone through first;( )

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 2:54pm

P.S from my personal opinion, wether their dead or alive, the process is the SAME and it’s not about ‘revenge’… (going back to Oxy’s analogy about the chair…revenge on the chair is futile!;)

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 3:19pm

Thanks, blueskies
I was about to post my story, but whenever i start, i am facing so many things and i just cant put all together into one post.
Well, my father was huge N, and mother, i cant say – maybe enabler, maybe N as well. She had hard childhood, left alone on this world at her 15 (during WW2), during the war she got marry but her husband also died, leaving her with baby.
She met my father and they got married, got 3 kidds,but it was not happy marriage, he used to cheat her and she used to suffer from it. Final victims were kidds.
She was so occupied by his cheatings that she neglected children, so my brother got seriously sick after some innocente flu (later on, as an grown man, he died at his 40 from consequences, leaving 2 sons without bread).
She suffered from bad conscience considering that matter and was trying to “make it up”, so he became all her world, and i became a Cinderella. One sisted died, another left home at her 18.
I had to “earn” every attention, every kindness, but nomatter how hard i was trying, it was never enough. From the other side, my N father locked me at home, i was not allowed to have friends, to go out, to have BF, so i studied hard, was the best at University, it was the only field i could prove myself as valuable person, BUT NOT TO THEM. They always took every my success as “normal” and i got never any nice word.
I was so eager for love, tenderness, friends, any affection, and i saw my way out in marriage, at my 21. U can guess that i ran straight into P hands
It was a hell, not just a P, he was an alcoholic, too, which i did not know.
Instead of “friend”, going out, having fun, i got a prison. First night i was raped, and every other night i was raped, i had to “make love” after he beated me and forced me on sex.
After 8 months i escaped, i ranaway one night after huge fight and beating.
Many times i could not go to work cuz i was all in bruises, beatten. Many times he used to come to my office, just to see if i am decent (i was an angel) and if, by some chance, some of colegues looked at me, i was called names, whore, and – of course, beaten.
OK, finally i understood i have to save my life. But, had nowhere to go, but back to my parents home.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 3:26pm

Dear ThornBud,

Blue skies is right, I think, as it doesn’t matter if they are dead or alive, and yes, I too have my injuries/wounds from the man who sired me (I will not call him a “father” as he was never a father to me) He is dead. My maternal unit (the woman who bore me) is Alive, she also injured me very badly, and continues to send money to my P-son who also would injure me or kill me if he could—-it doesn’t matter if they are dead, alive, out of your life entirely, or still trying to injuire you, the BITTERNESS in your own heart, EATS AT YOU not them. It does TAKE TIME however, and is part of a long healing process.

Even from the terrible things that happen to us we can draw LESSONS as well as injuries. Such as if you are a child and touch a hot object, you are burned but you LEARN not to touch that thing again, so there is injury and pain, but also a lesson for the future.

All children deserve loving parents, but not all childrn get them, so we must be out OWN PARENTS and love ourselves, and be good and nurturing to ourselves and since we had no role models as children, we must learn these things as adults. BUT WE CAN, and we can be stronger and better even though we started out at a disadvantage over children who did have good parents. Life isn’t fair, but to be bitter because of it only hurts US. It is a process though, not instantly—but you can do it. Don’t be hard on yourself, give yourself all the time you need. ((((hugs)))) and my prayers for your peace, TB. Oxy

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 3:32pm

Back to prison again, so after i managed, i left parents home, again straight in another P hands.
Years were passing, i lost one child, another, third. My country entered a war, i lost only friends i had, i lost my career due to political strungles . Than i met my husband, beautiful man who also adored me, as i adored him. But, life started to play again. I got a daughter but soon she was diagnosed by cancer, i was diagnosed by cancer, passed 11 surgeries in between her 3 surgeries. Than my brother died leaving 2 boys unprotected, and i took care of them. I lost again my job. Than my father died, my mother, i had again few hard surgeries..country in hell, war, bombing every day whole day. It was just too much to stand. My loving husband was so caring all the time, supportive, but after my brother died i just snapped cuz i adored him. I became introverted. My brother died and i took it as my fault. He lost his job and was without money, he needed money for medical care, but i did not know it, and i always was blaming myself for being blind. If i helped him, maybe he would not die. Than i promissed to myself: i will never ever let someone without help and support……….
Me and my husband got somehow distant, i know it was my fault, i was just full of pain, problems all arround. And, was it a fate or smth else i dunno, i started to escape from real life to internet, met a man who reminded me on my brother, helpless, needy, pore…he was soooooooooo caring, tender, he seemed to understand all my pains, i was “the one”, and all the well known stuff what goes with P. I was catched into another P’s trap.
To be continued

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 3:46pm

Well, at first, i told him about my bad conscience considering my brother. Soon, he told me he needs help, to start life, to finish his education, to start working. I was working 24/24/7 days a week to provide it. I gave him money for his education, i gave him money to start work and open an office, i gave him money to get started and initial rent, all of it taking from myself, my familly and my only child. Was i insane, crazy???? He bought a car, telling me he needs car for work. Again i worked to provide money for his education, but instead to start working (i bought all the equipment for office) he started to sell things without asking me. I gave him credit card, he emptied my account. 3 years after he told me that he never meant to open an office and he was cheating me all the times. I dunno why he told me that. Than, my daughter got sick, but he abandoned me, discarded, but always coming back for more money, for his teeth, for car to fix, for familly needs…..and my daughter grew up watching me fading, crying, tired and sick

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 3:59pm

All the time i thought what did i do wrong, was i supportive enough, what should i do more to “earn” his love, but same time i was suffering bad conscience that i forgot to be there to my own child. I always was thinking: she is young, i will make it up, just this one more time to help him to stand on his feet, day after day, month after month, year after year.
All that time my husband was next to me, holding me and helping, he knew smth is wrong with me, but he thought its cuz of all the problems and health issues. Yes, it was, but he did not know the whole story, he never doubted, i was always perfect wife, decent, it never crossed his mind i could be unfaithful.
Now, i am full of guilt, full of bitterness, full of all kinds of shits, facing new medical treatments, with ruined health.
Thanks God i managed to uprise my child into blooming person, but it costed me my only free time. I used to sleep 2-3 hours per day, and now i am all ruined, not able to stand and hold her

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:08pm

JLP0108 says:

There’s one thing that does help me when I’m angry. It’s not only that “They know not what they have done” (which is so very important), but it’s the knowledge that God tells us that he will judge all, and that justice WILL be served. Revenge is His – I don’t even have to worry about it. The Lord loves justice and hates robbery and iniquity (Isaiah 61:8).

I know I will have to forgive my N ex husband, and am not there yet or even close, but I do know that God gives me his grace and complete forgiveness for all of my wrong doing. This means, that if I accept his grace and forgiveness, I need to be able to forgive all of those who have hurt me as he commands me to do. Unfortunately, this includes the monster. I dont’ know yet how I’m going to get there, but I know that I have to.

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:09pm

blueskies and oxy, thanks so much, and sorry for spitting out my pain it just fled out from my soul, i needed to let it out

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:13pm

JLP0108,
we are together in process
me too, i dunno how, but i know i have to. maybe it is most important thing, to make a decision that we won’t stand it anymore, and we wanna go through, we wanna move forward, leaving our P/N’s behind, in all their dust and dirt

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:20pm

Thornbud, just before I hit he sack I wanted to say that when this ‘all came out for me’ it was like a flood… it still is to a certain extent, and I still have trouble separating things out,or being clear, or explaining, because there is SO MUCH! dont apologise for that.xxxx and the guys here are here to exchange this stuff, no matter what stage we’re at respectively, or how upset we are or how complicated the situation, and help each other:)xxx

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:26pm

Yeah, exactly, bleskies, it is like fllod. I am participating here, sometimes i post parts of my story, but what i believe and what i saw here is that we are not aware of the extent of damage. Sometimes i realise that if i start talking, i am going through the pain, and i try to avoid it by keeping inside. It is God’s gift for me that i have found this site, where ppl trully can understand what i am going through.
I was told that i used to buy love, that i am crazy for standing what i stood, no one understood or even knew about psychopaty. It is such relief to be here and to know u are understood, not blamed, not judged.
I started to believe i am bad or insane, i was drowing into the guilt feeling, and if did not have my child, i would for sure commit suicide. Now i have to learn to live, to love myself and to take care of myself. Hope its not too late cuz my health is ruine till the max. I just have to find strength to live and to be there to my child and a man who carried me all this time, never asking anything.
My main issue is to forgive myself, at first. I hate myself right now

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:40pm

I was reading Oxy’s posts over and over again. God, Oxy, u are our lighthouse here, i cant find words to thank u for waking us up, teaching, sharing, educating.
Huggs and blessings to all LF’s

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:47pm

Again i am stucked at night and it left just few hours for rest before i start new working week. I am also having medical tests, i am affraid so.
Wish u all good night/day and peace with urselves

Sunday, 27 September 2009 @ 4:49pm

Thornbud,
thank you for sharing your story. Your story, was like a fable for me. It helped me see the common thread in all of our stories: empathy.

The details are horrific, but unfortunately, the basis of your story is the same as that of everyone else here: WE HAD TOO MUCH EMPATHY. it’s like we crave something to do with all this empathy we carry around. The moment a P shows up, we feel relieved that we’ve found someone to dump our empathy on.
Please forgive yourself. You were not aware of the burden you carry of being too empathetic.
But you are now.
I don’t know the answer. I’m working on figuring it out.

I can tell you one thing though. some P’s don’t know what they are doing, but mine does. He asked me why I had no EMPATHY.

Monday, 28 September 2009 @ 1:18am

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After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 10 – Forgiving

192 Comments to “After the sociopath: How do we heal? Part 10 – Forgiving”

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