Diagnosing the problems correctly
PDF By Ox Drover
I flashed on something a while back. I know a man who went into the navy at age 16. When he was 18, he was on shore leave and met a young girl, rapidly fell in love with her, married her, set her up in an apartment and went back to sea for nine months. When he got back to shore, she was gone. He couldn’t understand why.
Later, when he was 22, he met another girl when he was on shore leave and married her as well. Lived with her a couple of weeks, during which time she got pregnant, and then left her and went back to sea for a year. When he came home, his wife and baby daughter were gone.
At this time, he started thinking about “what had gone wrong” with his two marriages and decided that the “problem” was “American women can’t be trusted.” He had no inkling of the real cause of the problem, which I had no problem seeing. First, both he and these girls were very young; he had only spent a few weeks with them (less than 30 days) before he married them and then left for months and months. During the time he was gone, the very weak bond between them failed and the girls moved on. The fact that they were American girls had nothing to do with the failure of his two marriages.
Foreign woman
Going on his false premise of what caused the failures of his marriages, he decided to marry a foreign woman. While he was on shore leave in the Philippines, he met a bar girl there who had two illegitimate daughters. After he left the Philippines, he wrote to this woman for two years, then returned and while on shore for a week, married her. She was, at the time he married her, working, and living with 26 other family members, including her two young daughters, in a two room shack, without indoor plumbing. The total cooking facilities for this family (or should I say “tribe”?) was a Coleman camp cooking stove bought for her sister by another serviceman.
After the wedding, he brought his wife and her daughters back to the US to live. He educated the two daughters and then the couple had one more daughter. By the time the second daughter was 12 years old and he had retired from the service on a half-pay pension, and was going to college himself, the daughter became “conduct disordered” and “ran wild.” His wife decided it would be better if she and the daughter stayed in the house they owned and that he should move out. She told him that when the daughter moved out at age 18, that she and he would move off and “live happily ever after.” As the girl’s 18th birthday approached, she gave birth to an illegitimate son. The man went for a visit to his family for his and his wife’s 20th wedding anniversary, taking a very expensive pair of diamond earrings to his wife, and so looking forward to the day, coming soon, he believed, that they would leave the daughter and live “happily ever after.”
Taken for a ride
Of course, that didn’t happen, and they were divorced. They hadn’t lived together the last six years of the “marriage,” but he had sent money to his wife and daughter during that period.
What is wrong with the above situation? The man was totally wrong about what the problem was with all three of his marriages. He was operating on bad information, so he could not fix the problem.
He was taken for a “ride” by his Philippine wife for over 20 years. She had been looking for a “meal ticket” and a “green card” eventually leading to US citizenship out of a horrible crushing poverty in the Philippines. I can’t say as I “blame” her for looking to take any way out of her situation. However, he had not the slightest clue what was going on, so he could not fix the problems with his choices and decisions.
Correct diagnosis
I realized, in going over this man’s stories, that I too had had difficulties in making good decisions and solving my own problems because I had not clearly defined what the problem was.
When I was in nursing school, we were taught to define the problems in order to make a correct diagnosis and find a solution. Without clearly defining what the problem was, there could be no correct solution.
In my own difficulties in dealing with psychopaths, and people with agendas that were clearly different from mine, I didn’t correctly define the real problem.
I would hit a snag and be abused and used, just as my navy friend had been used and abused, and I would (as he did) grieve over the losses that resulted from the situation. I would try to find what happened, as he did. However, like the man, I came up with the wrong solution because I didn’t correctly define what the real problem was.
With each of the psychopaths that I encountered, starting with my biological father, I defined the “problem” as me not being able to adequately communicate my love for them. If only I had loved them more, tried harder, somehow I would have gotten through to them how they should have treated me. I thought that somehow I must have precipitated this unholy abuse and pain. Obviously, I allowed it to continue for a long time until the pain became so bad I fled in terror from this monstrous man, but still I didn’t see that the real problem was that he was unable to love, and that my own lack of self esteem and boundary setting was what allowed this abuse to go on.
More psychopaths
After years of floundering around, going through the grief process, my pain totally invalidated by anyone, even my mother, I worked through the process to where I could function again in life. At least I thought I was functioning adequately.
Encountering more psychopaths however, in many roles, some in my family, some as bosses, some as subordinates, one as my son, and eventually one as a “significant other,” I still didn’t “get it” that there was a problem with me! That the problem with me was that I didn’t recognize that they were unreachable, unchangeable, unfixable, that no matter how much I loved them, how much I gave to them, how much I forgave them, how much I “pretended that they had not deliberately hurt me,” I was a sitting duck waiting for the next psychopath or disordered person to get the “benefit of the doubt” from me, to get the “second chance” to screw me over, to use me, to abuse me, to lie to me.
Seeing the light
Finally in 2007, I fled for my life, leaving my home and everything I held dear behind except for my personal papers, one son, and my dogs. I finally “saw the light.” I finally made a correct diagnosis of the problem. I finally saw that I could not change them, that no matter what I did to try to placate them, they were toxic. I could only change my own reaction to them.
I grieved the “loss” of the illusion that my psychopathic son would ever “reform.” No matter how he promised, he was, in truth, a monster who wanted me dead. The loss of the illusion that my mother was my loving mother, instead of a toxic enabler, almost a psychopath-by-proxy because she would do anything to protect my son from the consequences of his actions, was another huge loss that I grieved intensely. I also started to realize that I had great difficulty in setting boundaries for the way that people treated me, and that there were others in my life who used me as “foot wipes.” When these people would lie to me, steal from me, and otherwise mistreat me, I was afraid to “upset” them and confront them, or to “make a scene.”
I started looking back at my life, and at the beliefs that I held to be true, the beliefs that influenced the way I allowed others to treat me. I then realized that like my friend the navy man, I had diagnosed the problems with these people incorrectly. These people in my family and my life did not respect me, but wanted to control me for their own benefit and I had allowed this to happen, over and over and over. When I had gotten to the point each time that the pain was unbearable, I had given in to their desires for control. I had paid dearly for “peace at any price.” They had done the bad deeds, and I had paid the price for their peace, but there was no peace for me, only pain.
My reactions
Having again gone through the grief processes over the losses I suffered—the fantasy that my psychopathic son would change, the fantasy that my mother was not a toxic enabler, and all the other losses—I now see that the problem was not just with the psychopaths, but also in my reactions to them.
I realize now that I cannot deal with them safely, in any way, shape or manner. The only choices I have are to have no contact with the toxic people in my life, no contact with anyone who is not honest, caring and kind. As I continued to stay on the “road to healing” I realized that in the past, when I had gotten over the initial grief of the losses suffered from dealing with psychopaths, I was still vulnerable to the next psychopath because I had not learned to set boundaries without feeling great guilt over “upsetting” someone who had abused me. I realized that no matter what the relationship with a psychopath is, no matter how close the blood ties, or any other ties, that these people will always behave as psychopaths behave, and that is abusively.
Now that I have made changes in myself, made changes in the way I react to abusive behavior, now that I have refused to blame myself for their abuse, and refuse to let abusive behavior continue, I am on a much more solid footing on the road to healing. I also realize that I must stay on this road, that I must guard myself with caution in dispensing trust to anyone in my life, and set solid boundaries for myself. I don’t feel that I can ever declare myself “totally healed” again, as I have in the past, only to try to “fix” the next psychopath that comes into my life. I will always to some extent be vulnerable to the psychopaths, more vulnerable to some than others, but I now watch for the “red flags” that indicate pathological disorder in people I deal with. I no longer trust blindly.
written by Joyce Alexander • Permalink •
Matt says:
slimone:
“Then the light went on, and I was, for a time, blinded (shocked, as I recategorized many relationships based on this new illumination).
Sign me up for that club, sister.
I have wasted the better part of my life trying to make sense of the nonsensical. My childhood was spent trying not to be killed by my lunatic parents. And then I kept finding myself in relationship after relationship where I would tolerate crap that no sane person would have tolerated, mainly because I had no frame of reference as to what was “normal.” I kept trying to make sense of the craziness and actually believed some of these wingnuts when they told me I was the problem.
Then I encountered S which led me to this website. And I discovered that I wasn’t the problem, that they had the problem and there was nothing that could be done about that problem. Boy, has it been one hell of an education. I wish I knew 30 or 40 years ago what I know now. But, I have to take the position of better late than never.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Matt,
“beter late than never”
That is so true, and it took me six decades to realize what was going on, what the REAL problem was. My lack of insight into the REAL problem made me keep on trying to find a solution to something over and over that never worked.
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results” (can’t rememeber which famous person said that) but it is SO TRUE.
The good AND the bad thing is that if you don’t correctly diagnose the real problem and keep on trying to fix it without knowing what to do is that you get to STAY in the REMEDIAL classroom until you either die or GET IT RIGHT!
Unfortunately, too many people take the “till death” part before they learn the lesson. At least we have had the option at this point in providing ourselves with some part of life that is P-FREE.
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geminigirl says:
Dear Oxdrover, Hi, its me again, geminigirl. Like you, Ive just ordered a copy of “Betrayed”,–Im hoping it will help me.
Its not easy , loving a sociopathic daughter,at the moment I feel I still love her, but I cant stand her.Its a bit like mental torture, you hear so many lies,so many con tricks, that after a while you start to doubt your own sanity!. Im very lucky that I met my wonderful second husband, David, now76.He has put up with so much sh–t from both my daughters, yet never complained. I havent seen my second Narcissist daughter, Claire, for 17 years. She is 42, and has 3 kids whom Ive never once been allowed to see. They are aged 13, 10, and one yearold. Im sure they dont even know I exist. She is living with {but wont marry] a very rich jewish boy,-the “Mum in Law” pays for everything, bought them a 3 and a half million home, bought them 2 cars,{one for the live in nanny} and the school fees at an exclusive jewish school. David and I have been wiped. We dont even know what we are supposed to have done, or not done!She has turned into a snobby, superficial, money grubbing, hard little b—h, unfortunately. Everyone has to dance to her tune.I have written, sent flowers, cards, birthday gifts, Ive never once in 17 years had a reply to anything. Now, I give up, she has killed all my love for her, stone dead. geminigirl.
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ErinBrockovich says:
Geninigirl:
“Everyone has to dance to her tune.”
NO THEY DON”T!!!! YOU are in Control, take back your dignity, power and love for yourself girl!!!
There are plenty of people in the world (David for one) who deserve the respect, love and joy you bring to them.
Concentrate on the good people in your life.
I bought the CD and listened to The sociopath next door……I’m not a reader much, so I tend to go the listening to book route……I was blown over by these stories.
I know you will find your peace through your reaching out and ‘finding out’.
You sure gave it the ‘good ol college try’.
XXOO
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Rune says:
Geminigirl: The more you understand about the personality disorder behind this behavior, the more likely you are to be able to accept that this is not your fault — it’s not about your parenting, what you did or didn’t do to raise your children right. You have given, you have done your best. Your daughters will make decisions that make no sense to most of us, but they are driven by motivations that we cannot understand.
My heart goes out to you.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
Oxy, this is a wonderful post. Thank you.
I got snagged early on this, “With each of the psychopaths that I encountered, starting with my biological father, I defined the “problem” as me not being able to adequately communicate my love for them. If only I had loved them more, tried harder, somehow I would have gotten through to them how they should have treated me.”
I knew exactly what you meant, because that’s what I did. And I wondered where did we learn that kind of reasoning?
Then, oh snap, I remembered. That was because we were responsible for other people’s dangerous or withholding moods when we were children. God, it’s no wonder we came out of it programmed to look for approval like heat-seeking missiles. And to interpret complements as soul vitamins.
I’ve gotten to dislike compliments, giving or receiving. They’re uninvited judgments. They’re uninvited personal judgments. I’m grateful for feedback about how I affect someone. Like if someone tells me that my writing made something clear they they didn’t understand before. Or even negative feedback, like if someone says that my interruptions hurt their feelings. That’s useful information. But unless I’ve got something riding on it — like a contract negotiation with people who don’t yet know my work — I care less whether people like me than if they profit in some way from what I do.
That makes me think of when family members say things that began with “you always” or “you’re so.” It used to drive me crazy until I took non-violent communication training, and started to come back with “And that makes you feel how?” so we could get back to them talking about them, instead of me, and find out what they really wanted. Now, I’ve smoothed the whole thing out a bit, and come to “It’s nice that you think about me that way” for a complement or “Thanks for letting me know you feel that way” to a negative judgment.
Which, finally, brings me back around to what Oxy wrote. All this training about being responsible for other people’s feelings and behaviors toward us is hard to undo. But it’s a great day when we do. And more important, when we figure out that their feelings and behaviors are about them, not us. We can’t fix them or control them. And if we’re not getting what we need, maybe we should quit investing in the relationship.
Thank you, Oxy.
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OxDrover says:
Dear geminigirl,
I had a difficult time coming to grips with my son being in prison for murder, and in giving up hope that he would ever “reform” (though he talked a good game.)
I realized, finally, that the wonderful bright and enjoyable child I loved (aged to puberty) was gone, DEAD, and would never return. I look at it like the child died, and the organs were “donated” to a monsterous MAN that I don’t know. This MAN is a stranger to me, and NOT the wonderful child I loved.
I even had a little “memorial service” for my deceased child who was gone/dead. the man I no longer grieve for, because he is NOT MY SON, my prescious baby.
That may sound strange but that’s the way I cope, and it works for me. I itook all the photos of him past 11-12 years old and put them away. Those pictures are of the MAN as a young man, not my son.
Just as I thought I would never be able to come to acceptance with the loss of my wonderful husband after his death, I did come to process the grief and now the pain is gone. I miss him, but yet he is “with” me. I miss my young son too, but just as my late husband is “with me” in memory so is the memory of that wonderful child, but the memories of teh STRANGER, the STRANGE man—there is no pain there any more.
I suggerst you go back and read the archived articles about Psychopaths and how they behave, and read the articles about how to heal. Read them ALL! Just the articles, but every one. Also read the new articles and blog here with us. It will help you heal. I have a dear friend I met on another suvivor site, she was married for 40+ years to a psychopath who alienated her children, her sisters, everyone against her, but she finally found the strength to leave. On her own, to move to another city wehere she had no one. she is in very poor health now, diabetes, broken hip, etc. but she is finally coming to peace about it all, letting go of the pain, the loss, and her finaly years are much better even under the circumstances.
It is a “shame” when our later years must be so drama-filled, so pain filled, but resolving our lives is part of the tasks for these later years. I hope that you and your wonderful husband have peace and joy, and healing. I am so glad that you have found such a loving companion and husband and friend to support you through all of this. God has blessed you!
I[‘m coming to peace at last, but it has been such a long and painful journey, but it is only through that journey, and self examination about why we put up with all the crap the Ps dished out that we CAN come to a place of peace and joy again! god bless you! (((Hugs))))
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geminigirl says:
Thank you so much, Erin, Oxdrover, Rune! It is so wondeful and comforting to know Im not alone in this! There are so few people who understand what I am going through, and even if they did have the tiniest inkling of the agony of having adult kids like this,what could they do? I cant tell you how great it is to have met you. Its like a huge black cloud, starting to lift at the edges. Truly ,I feel like Ive been in a war zone, that im finally coming out of a terrible nightmare. I know you are all correct, separation is for the best. I see almost nothing of my precious grandkids anyway, but they do ring occasionally, their dad reminds them to ring and thank me for little gifts, etc.They are innocents in all this.I feel like im emerging from a black tunnel. I used to second guess myself, thinking,”What if they are right, and I am the crazy one? “Its ironic, I even got a letter years ago from my ex husband, and he said,”Treat them,{the girls} with the contempt with which they treat you!.” Ive never been able to do this.Im starting to get flash backs of more of the terrible things the girls have done, its like I blocked it off for so many years. The hurt was unbelievable, like having rats eating my guts from the inside.
Now Im allowing the anger to surface, and my self preservation says, “Enough! You did your best! Cut of from the ingrates! As you said, Oxy, these are not my sweet little girls. These are cold hearted, sick, calculating, cruel, selfish adults. They DONT love me, they only use me. They are ,neither of them, capable of love. I did my best. Now I have to truly let go. I dislike these women intensely, I have nothing in common with them, I am a clever, successful Arts graduate, a teacher for 28 years, have travelled, seen the world, had my portraits in the Royal Scottish Academy. I have friends who value me, anda wonderful loving husband. Time to call a halt on all this, and concentrate on life with david, and a few good and true friends, both here in Australia and in Scotland. Enough is enough! I did my best, I can do no more. I feel Deborah will suck me dry, and she gives nothing back. I feel like she drains me not only of money, but it feels like an attack on my soul.These children whom I loved, and who came out of me, I dont recognise them.Thanks again, & hugs! Maia.{geminigirl}
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witsend says:
Hi Everyone. Trying to catch up on the articles. Should get my computer back in a few days. It has been awful being without it.
Saturday my older son is getting married and I have been pretty busy. I think it will be an emotional wedding for me.
I did get my books that I ordered and have been diving into them every chance I get to read.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Has Anyone heard from SABRINA???
She wasn’t on for awile and now that I am not on I wondered if I missed her….Am worried as she recently asked her son to leave her house and not live there anymore.
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Rune says:
Witsend: So good to see you. I hope for you to have a blessed day on Saturday with your family, as your older son moves into this new phase of his life.
Take care of yourself. We’re looking forward to you getting your computer back, too!
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OxDrover says:
Dear Geminigirl
You’ve GOT IT SISTER!!!! These WINEB are malicious STRANGERS and they WILL “eat you from inside” IF—AND ONLY IF—YOU ALLOW IT!
You DESERVE to have some peace and joy with your David! You do NOT deserve to be tortured for the rest of your life. You did the best you could with raising these “darlings” just as I did with my own P-son.
For what it is worth, there is a great genetic component in this, it is NOT “all in the raising.” Research lately has proven what ever herdsman knows, “like breeds like” and also that “things jump generations” in the genetics as well.
I was unfortunate enough to be born in to a family filled with these monsters on both sides, and yet, not be one myself. I married a man who came from such a family as well,though, he himself was not a psychopath, his genes were there and one of my two sons from puberty “morphed” from being a sweet wonderful child linto a monster in what seemed like over night. You cannot blame yourself for the way your daughters turned out.
I have raised and bred Scottish Highland cattle for several decades, and the breed is mostly very gentle, but every once in a while a CRAZY one will pop up, and believe me, those “crazy” cattle’s offspring are generally “crazy” as well. I started culling out these “crazy” cows and their off spring out of my herd, much to the benefit of the herd and myself.
Now, even the cattle industry is finding that this is “genetic” —just like the Spanish bread a race/breed of “crazy” and dangerous cattle for their National Sport, by breeding crazy to crazy and culling out the docile ones.
Humans, though we have brains bigger and smarter than cattle, are STILL subject to the laws in genetics about basic temperment just as we are about the color of our eyes, if I/we recognize that some one/thing is “crazy” in our herd/family we still need to CULL IT OUT for our own safety. No matter if we gave birth to it, or it gave birth to us, we have to CULL it out.
I realize it hurts to acknowledge that the child you loved, became the adult you don’t know, the adult that will abuse you. I have never experienced deeper or more profound pain than acknowledging that my own son became a monster of no small proportions. But, finally, by doing that, I was able to let him go, and to come to peace within myself.
I wasn’t a perfect parent, no one is, but i was a good parent for the most part, and my other biological son is NOT a monster, but a loving, caring, hard working, bright, kind, compassionate man—totally opposite of his brother.
My best wishes for you and your wonderful David. (((hugs)))) and God bless you both!
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ErinBrockovich says:
Witsend:
Hey Girl……staying strong I hope!!!!!
Hopefully, summer will offer you soltice and rejuvination!!!
XXOO
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OxDrover says:
CORRESTION: I have no idea where the WINEB came from! Gremlins on my posts!
Dear Witsend:
have a great wedding experience as the mother of teh Groom! oxoxox Oxy
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Joy says:
I won! Towanda! Full story on philosophy of Sociopath thread in moments.
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a_real_wife says:
Oxy,
Yet another great, insighful post, AND I’ve gotten to read about half the comments this afternoon – I will be back to finish this tomorrow, although I won’t be on all day, as I have been most Tuesdays (the highlight of opening my e-mail on tuesday mornings is “what’s new at LoveFraud…”); I’m studying again, prepping for re-starting college, so algebra is my main bane brain drain right now.
*Hugs* and thanks for all the insights and advice.
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geminigirl says:
Dearest Oxdrover,
Many many thanks! I know you are right! Thanksfor giving me that extra bit of courage, I know I can do this! My darling husband deserves a whole ,loving wife. For my own mental and emotional health,I need to let these two b—ches go! It is the hardest thing in the world, as you say, to realise you gave birth to these emotionally cold, calculating, cruel, lying women! Like you I did the best I knew how. My ex, though he is an alcoholic, was nowhere near as bad as my daughters, and it was easy to let him go and forgive him. he has since remarried, and seems happy.I know now that the girls will never change, and I have to move on. I deservea happy life with david. Thanks again! {{{HUGS!!}}} Maia -geminigirl.
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passer-by says:
Rosa wrote: “Don’t ever think someone wants to get close to you within the first 10 minutes of meeting you because you are that “special”. Nobody is that freaking special!”
Rosa, I think you are wrong. It’s quite possible to be that freaking special.
When I read your post I imagined a following situation. I’m dating many different women who are intelligent, attractive, have great character, in an attempt to find that special someone who in addition has a few rare things about her that are important to me. It is irrelevant here what those things are. Alas, they are rare, so I have to try and try and try without any guarantee that I’ll find one. Occasionally I see an attractive woman who seems to have these things about her. Of course, I don’t know anything else about her. (I suppose that she is intelligent, otherwise she probably wouldn’t have those few special things about her, but as I’ve said it’s irrelevant what those things are). I don’t know anything about her character. But I can try to find it out! It’s much faster than going other way round and chances for success are much higher!
Alas, that woman has bad experience and is too afraid of sociopaths, so she is fearful of my possible hidden agenda. Nobody can be that freaking special, right? So probably I won’t really have a chance to date her. After all I do have some hidden agendas, just as anybody else. So I lose maybe the most real possibility in my life to find that special someone I would love to be in love with.
I think it would be an agonizing experience.
I think you are so afraid of people’s hidden agendas because the only hidden agenda you consciously dealt with was a hidden agenda of your sociopath to enslave, exploit and hurt you. You don’t recognize your own hidden agendas, and believe me, you have them too. You don’t notice that most if not all people are somewhat manipulative, and even people you like probably are slightly (or not so slightly) manipulative. So you take an all-or-nothing approach to this.
Yes, there is some hidden agenda behind my desire to see those particular rare things in my partner. I want to get something out of it. And I don’t want to tell everyone what is that that I want out of it because it’s one of the things people call intimate. So it IS a hidden agenda. And it will be hidden until we are close enough so I may open up. But it does not mean that it is evil or exploitive. If in order to get what I want I had to hurt or harm her I would rather stop. It’s not a pleasant experience to hurt a person you love.
I agree that you have to be careful and to try to understand hidden agendas of people you deal with, let alone of someone who is your prospective life partner. Everyone has to be careful. But it does not mean you have to assume the worst possible case right away until proven otherwise: you just won’t really give him a chance to prove otherwise!
I think that your feeling of vulnerability which causes your overvigilance comes not only from your bad memories, but also from the fact that you are indeed vulnerable. I think you just know it on some level. Probably some your important need is not met. You tried hard, you played all the fools, you fell in love with sociopath, and you’ve paid a high price for that. Yet your need is still unmet, and it makes you vulnerable.
The problem is, if this is the case (and I think it is) you’ll be vulnerable until you’ve figured out what that need is and how to deal with it. Despite all your precautions you may just fall for another predator that by chance or due to his own shrewdness slipped past your outer defenses. And if your unmet need is such that your defensive walls prevent you from satisfying it (it MAY be the case) you will almost inevitably fall for another predator. You’ll unlock all your locks and open wide all your armored gates for him. For no one else but him.
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Matt says:
passer-by:
You make my skin crawl.
Putting that aside, I think I speak for everybody on this site when I say that the reason we all see sudden fawning interest from somebody as a warning sign is because it is. We have all been lovebombed by sociopaths. We have all been manipulated by sociopaths. As a matter in fact, we were manipulated just the way you are manipulating your victims.
Quite frankly, all people are presumed assholes until proven otherwise. Translation: trust must be earned. if I saw someone was manipulating me the way you feel free to, I would not only run for the hills, but I would also dump your sorry ass the minute I figured out what you were up to.
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Rune says:
I see a post directed to Rosa that appears intended to derail her, create self-doubt, and point out so-called deficiencies (real or fabricated) with the sole purpose of making her obsess over these presumed flaws.
Creepy. This is a personal attack, dressed up to look like something else.
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libelle says:
I just can say: thank you Matt and Rune.
It was like breaking NC with “my” X while I was trying to follow the twisted thinking of passer-by.
And ceterum censeo: Potted plant!
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JaneSmith says:
Ditto to what Matt and Rune stated regarding Passer-by’s post…
And to you, Passer-by, not all people on this planet have hidden agendas. Not all people on this planet are manipulative and want what they want or else!
Not all of us work that way and it’s a damn shame you have such a narrow, linear perspective. You make such unjustified, erroneous blanket statements because you lack insight into the minds of all people.
None of us is able to know precisely what other’s want, need, know because that’s an entirely impossible endeavor unless you are a mind-reader or maybe a cunning sociopath who closely studies, observes their latest target in an effort to exploit.
That calculating behavior is repulsive, disgusting for me to even want to contemplate but in seeking to protect myself and those I love and care for, I will learn all I need to learn about the predictable behavior of psychopaths.
Because they are boring and limited and selfish and sick, sick, sick.
I would kindly suggest you let Rosa be Rosa. We love her just the way she is. We support her just the way she is. We VALUE her just the way she is.
Rose is an important member of the LF family and her presence on this website is priceless as she has tons of insight and wisdom to share with us.
And that goes for all of you wonderful folks as well.
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Kathleen Hawk says:
passerby:
Thank you for visiting. It’s always instructive to be reminded of how people like you operate.
It is your bad fortune that you don’t have a heart. You’re very bright, but that doesn’t make up for it.
This is not a 12-step meeting where you can troll. Really. There are a lot of people here who remember you in another body. We’ve heard the double-talk. It’s hard to tell you how clueless you sound when you talk about your secret criteria and your idea that we’re just waiting for the next self-aggrandizing loser to come along.
Save it for your mirror.
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OxDrover says:
Passer-by—keep on going and PASS ON BY, I’m sure you will find someone to fall for your TWISTED logic, but NOT ON THIS BLOG!
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Tood says:
W00t! Everyone’s superpowers are in fine working order this evening, I see.
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Done says:
So I’m probably going to go to hell for saying this, but there is a tornado that just hit down right by my S and I am having a mixture of hoping he gets smashed in the head by blowing shrapnel, and fear for his safety. Bleah.
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ErinBrockovich says:
Passer-by:
The sky are not outlet, the ground is weeding it on the stairs AND the doctors are in mooney. The boys are up over at. Park tippy tree on or and me, the dinner is over the tip of the grocery yarn. The girl are Spain mush with he horse am is road. There rock is saying, but the government wont let it be known.
I am going to South Dakota on Wednesday by train and I will walk to the grocery store with my girlfriend Jenni on the day after the day that I take the train trip on a Saturday spring overcast afternoon morning time. My neighbor John’s best friends girlfriends aunt is having a desk so we will go to car before I’m leaves for the concert the night before he spends the night with his son at his so brilliantly paging, excited next haircut…….
WTF…….
Passerby……this is as much sense as you make, so move along with your ever so eloquently intended, ignorant statement and seek therapy!!!
You really have no business here, and your not as anonymous as you may think you are homeboy!
Or……you could end up finding that I POSESS the ‘secret ingredient’ you speak of, and land up with MOI for a weekend of fun! (not that I would, in any way, be interested in a deranged intruder such as yourself)!
Now…..I’m not so sure this is what you intended……so keep on moving on and go find another bridge to dwell under.
Your ‘friend’ ERINB
XXOO
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Done says:
LOL Erin! Good job jumbling that.
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Done says:
Tonight has been some kind of test to see if I can keep NC. I was emotional earlier, then the tornado touched down right where S lives, and now his poor old crazy mom just called me. It wasn’t that long ago that this series of events would have triggered an uncontrollable urge to contact him to see if he was ok, or chat about his mom’s health etc. So GLAD to have those urges in check…if only for the moment!
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ErinBrockovich says:
DONE:
BREEEAAATTTTHHHHHH!!!!
Hold on…..my toes hurt from wearing my pointed French Stelletos in preparation for my upcoming weekend with my new ‘friend’ Passerby, let me temporarily remove them. I thought I had purchased them to wear for Rosa to keep her in check, I NEVER thought I would be protecting her in them!!!
Okay….you need to regain control and take these emotions and calmly ‘notice’ in yourself each and every feeling. It will come to you the ‘why’ you feel this way.
Remember, (even though this is not a man made disaster) the fact that Sociopaths always got us to react under the quick, omg there’s a fire type drama……this would be similar. DO NOT REACT…..think about it all…..try to refocus and don’t get burned by the ‘immediate’ feeling to react (call, be in touch etc…)…..You will only open up a line of communication that you really do not wish to have. You know you will show the S your compassionate side and it will be exploited.
Take this time to assume he ‘died’ and see the process of grieving his ‘death’. It will be hard, expect the emotions…..but allow yourself to process through them!
Don’t fall for others lighting emotional fires under your butt either (the mother)….
You have recognized in your previous post how much you have grown since the last ‘series of events’……Pat yourself on the back…..be PROUD…..recognize and continue to look for these growth spurts in yourself.
You’ve done good girl…..stay calm.
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OxDrover says:
Dear Done,
The Bible says that God sends rain on the just and the UNjust, but it also says that He said “Vengence is mine, saith the Lord.” so, if we leave it to HIM, believe me, all jokes aside, they will get what they deserve. Nothing we could even think of to do to them would be as bad as what they will face in the end!
At times, I itoo have had my little fantasies of “vengence” but I realize it is not good for me to think that way (though it is natural to think that way.) Th eopposite of love is NOT “hate” it is INDIFFERENCE, just not giving a big rat’s behind whether they breathe or not. I’m getting there on some of my Ps, still working on coming to that with my egg donor, but the longer I am NC the easier it gets.
NC FOREVER!!!! TOWANDA!!!!
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justabouthealed says:
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Remember that video on you-tube where the guy was so dripping with narcissism in the phone message he left for a girl who he was intending to date that it became very popular???I think it was called something like how NOT to pick up a girl. Anyway, I was laughing my head off reading the post from passer-by. It is one of the best specimens I’ve seen lately of narcissitic thinking, grandiosity, entitlement, projection, etc. Except for that fact that it was addressed to our own Rosa, I would think it was a parody like Steve’s ME, ME, ME blog!
Oh my god, he’s so full of himself and his criteria, wouldn’t you love to see him at a lf party trying to make an impression on all us lovely ladies??????????? Oxy can dump the punch bowl on his head.
But I think he’s given me a great idea for a comic strip with a character called narc, who thinks he is god’s gift to women. LOL!!!
Well, so as not waste this post, let me add NC is totally the only thing that works. But if that is not possible, I did very well with “emotional isolation” from my mom. I think it is described in the Betrayal Bond book? Anyway, I just didn’t get any further than “grocery store” conversation with her, only told her things I would tell anyone I ran into at the grocery store. At some point, I realized that being real with her only led to pain. I learned to change the subject quickly about things and just not emotionally connect. Yet I took care of her faithfully in her last years, probably more faithfully than she deserved. I “honored her” but didn’t engage with her emotionally.
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justabouthealed says:
Done, I had a similar experience with an earthquake that gave me a perfect “excuse” to call. But thank god, I had no urge to do so…well, just a tiny one…. and I didn’t. I have a few horrible things that he said to me ready to play in my mind when necessary that quickly jolt me back to earth and realize what he is…..a brain damaged sociopath. Redundant wording (brain damaged and sociopath, though it is special kind of brain damage).
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passer-by says:
Matt says: “the reason we all see sudden fawning interest from somebody as a warning sign is because it is”
From my point of view it is a warning sign, no more and no less. If you mean this then I can agree. If you mean something more hostile I should disagree.
Matt says:” As a matter in fact, we were manipulated just the way you are manipulating your victims”
The only place you watch me is here. Are you my victims? Am I manipulating you, I mean anybody on this site? What can I get from it? It’s possible to get only three things by posting here. First is some general information. Second, you can feel validated. Third, you can be attacked. I’ve got the first and the third. The third was an unpleasant experience.
Yet you assume that I want to exploit you. Excuse me, but how could I really do it?
I think the truth is, people stayed for long time in the relationships that damaged them because they had very serious reasons for it. You may call it ‘deficiencies’ and agonize over them. You may think I’m attacking you by pointing out those presumed ‘deficiencies’. But I don’t see them as deficiencies. I call them unmet needs. That’s the difference. It’s OK to be you just as it is OK to be me (or anybody else for that matter).
Matt says:”all people are presumed assholes until proven otherwise. Translation: trust must be earned”
Do you trust people on this site (well, except me – I understand that you don’t trust me)? Do you really know them? Yet you don’t probably think they are assholes.
JaneSmith says: “Not all people on this planet are manipulative and want what they want or else!”
Not all people are prepared to get what they want by any means necessary. That’s all I can agree with. I don’t think that you or anybody else are completely free from hidden agendas. I’ve never ever interacted with anybody for long time without watching him manipulate other people. I’ve been manipulated myself. I’m sure I’ve manipulated others although it’s much harder to notice when you are doing it yourself.
But of course I may be wrong and you may be right. Maybe there is a person out there who is absolutely not manipulative and has no hidden agendas. I’ve heard there was one. Alas, as far as I know he was crucified.
Well, the last paragraph was manipulative. You can hear such manipulative things all the time. That’s the way people talk with each other quite often. Probably you say something like that yourself. The truth is, I didn’t want to concede that I may be wrong here. All I wanted to say is that it is ridiculously unlikely.
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Donna Andersen says:
Well, we’ve had a reminder. In the interest of preventing things from getting ugly, I think it’s time to stop this thread.
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