The philosophy of a sociopath
Lovefraud recently received a letter from a woman who we’ll call Valerie. She met her husband, who we’ll call Dylan, at age 18, and has been with him for seven years. She thought they were happy together in their wonderful home with their family of pets.
Suddenly Dylan started acting erratically. He said he didn’t want to be with Valerie any more. He picked fights. She asked Dylan to leave, but made it clear that she was willing to do whatever was necessary to help him. So he left, and wouldn’t tell her where he was. Eventually, Valerie’s intuition told her to check her husband’s Facebook page, where she found Dylan’s love letters to another woman.
Then Valerie found how Dylan described himself on another website. Here’s what he wrote:
My name is Dylan and I believe in Chaos, destruction and murder. I will contradict myself but I don’t think that should make me a hypocrite. I hone my strengths and hide my weaknesses because only the strong will survive. I lie, cheat and steal. But only if it’s the most intelligent plan of action; & only the stupid get caught. I’m fighting a personal rebellion I can’t justify. I’m losing my mind, my friends and my morals with each passing day, but each day I pass leads me closer to finding myself. I would rather live my life in surrender to temptation than to deny my natural instincts. I never hurt those who do not hurt me first, I don’t believe in physical confrontation but as in eastern philosophy I am trained to engage in it, if for nothing more than the practice of strengthening the bond between mind and body.
I know who I am, but not where I am, or why I am here. I find Art to be the only voice of reason in a place otherwise inhabited by counter-production. I promote sex, but lack emotion, I hate addicts but I believe in drugs, I make music but I destroy everything else. I bore easily but I am doomed to repeat myself.
My name is Dylan and this is only the beginning.
Whoa! Did this guy just write the sociopath manifesto?
I don’t know if Dylan is truly describing himself—apparently he’s got some kind of hardcore band and perhaps he wrote the above statement for its shock value. Still, is it possible to even come up with these ideas if he didn’t experience the state of mind that they imply?
Fundamentally different
The truly scary thing about sociopaths is that they are fundamentally different from the rest of us. They do not want what we want. They do not value what we value.
Normal human beings want affection, cooperation and achievement. We want to care about others and contribute to life. Sociopaths want power, control and sex, and they’ll destroy anyone and anything to get what they want.
But sociopaths look like us and appear to act like us. That’s why they are so hard to identify. It’s also why people who have not experienced their manipulation up close and personal find it so difficult to believe us. The uninitiated—those lucky souls who have not been devastated by a sociopath—have yet to learn that there are people in the world for whom proclamations of love, truth and promises are nothing but tactics in a power game.
Everything changes
This is the bottom line: Dealing with a sociopath changes everything. Normal human courtesies do not apply. Social protocols do not apply. Rules do not apply. Contracts do not apply. Laws do not apply.
If we find that we are interacting with a sociopath, the best thing we can do is get the person out of our lives. When that is not possible, we need to be on mental red alert at all times and understand that anything the person says may be a lie. We need to know that for the sociopath, we are not a friend, or a lover, or a relative, or a co-worker. For a sociopath, all we are is a target.
written by Donna Andersen • Permalink •
Elizabeth Conley says:
“Valerie” has been married to “Dylan” for seven years. He changed very rapidly. He may be mentally ill.
That being said, I’m pretty sure he’s given her grounds for a divorce. You haven’t mentioned children. That seems like a blessing.
A good friend of ours was married to a wonderful young woman who became severely deranged in her early twenties. She was institutionalized, and he divorced her. He did this because the person he had fallen in love with and married no longer seemed to be present in the body that remained. He was a Lt in the US Marines at the time. Even if he had remained married to her out of a sense of obligation, her needs were not compatible with the transient, stressful lifestyle of Marine Officers and their families.
This sounds cruel, but I support these hard choices. I think Valerie may have to mourn the loss of her husband and move on with her life.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:37am
southernman429 says:
Donna wrote “The truly scary thing about sociopaths is that they are fundamentally different from the rest of us. They do not want what we want. They do not value what we value.”
I might add that in the end, it is their lack of “humaness” that is one of the most shocking revelations of all. And because of this lack, they are very capable of plowing their way through other peoples lives over and over again…. Rarely being held accountable for their actions…Those of us who are with human qualities will always be hurt and betrayed by them.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:38am
Elizabeth Conley says:
PS – in another instance the patient grew up in a loving Catholic family, the successful middle child in a large family of successful, well educated young adults.
One morning the family woke up to the shocking reality that he was pacing in front of the Whitehouse, pleading for a meeting with the President. He was aware of horrible threats to the President’s life, and wanted to save him.
He was mentally ill, and in spite of medication he has not recovered to the extent that anyone hoped. He still lives in a group home, carefully medicated and monitored. While he’s not dangerous, he’s not husband and father material either.
Several experts have speculated that the reason this man is not dangerous, in spite of his paranoia and delusions, was his unusually good family life.
When a young adult changes overnight, we have to consider the possibility that they’re mentally ill.
In Dylan’s case, it may be that he has abused the wrong drugs. Many street drugs do profound neurological damage.
Please do not call every behavior you do not like Sociopathy. There are other conditions that cause serious interpersonal difficulty.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:47am
learnthelesson says:
Donna wrote
“Suddenly Dylan started acting erratically” (RED FLAG)”
” He said he didn’t want to be with Valerie any more.” (HUGE RED FLAG)
“He picked fights.” (RED FLAG)
“She asked Dylan to leave” (STOP. CHANGE DIRECTION – for others it may be simply leaving “not asking the P to leave”…but it worked for her.)
“but made it clear that she was willing to do whatever was necessary to help him” THIS IS WHERE I STRUGGLE WITH MY PAST. THIS IS WHERE I STRUGGLE WITH HOW TO DETERMINE RELATIONSHIPSTHAT ARE SAVED THRU THERAPY AND RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE DOOMED WITH A P- PARTNER…but we are so confused and conflicted that we offer that shred of hope/understanding/willingness to do whatever is necessary to help him or save relationship..
I think I learned rather than stick my head in the sand…doing what Valeries intuition was “investigate”…albiet secretively…so as not to use it against him but to gain valuable information and proceed with caution is probably the best one can do…or maybe one better is to severe ties based upon the bad treatment…but being married you have to get divorced so I guess its not that easy….
But if you arent married, the best course of action is ACCEPTING and ACKNOWLEDGING you arent being treated right…no offer to” help “the other person figure it out or work it out..if you love the other person who is treating you badly…you self-protect and self-respect and self-trust your abiilty to ask yourself am I being treated good – if not – you let them go and you remain NO CONTACT – or you WILL find yourself a continual target.
Good luck Valerie…your intuition and you acting on it likely saved you years of confusion and P-inflicted pain. Sorry for your journey. So glad you stopped and changed direction!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:24am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Witsend,
Im posting under this thread for you so that all of us reaching out to you are spread out on the board…in case you are catching up on threads… I am thinking of you as school is nearing completion…altho I think maybe your sons school has ended for the summer? I share my concern with Oxy and Rune, and hope you check in soon and let us know how you are doing with everything… Continued thoughts and prayers for you… xoxo Learn
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:30am
OxDrover says:
Learned:
QUOTE: “THIS IS WHERE I STRUGGLE WITH MY PAST. THIS IS WHERE I STRUGGLE WITH HOW TO DETERMINE RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE SAVED THRU THERAPY AND RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE DOOMED WITH A P”
I think this is a good assessment of where most/many of us have been in the past. Still wanting to “help” them and give them the “benefit of the doubt.”
It isn’t original but I call this MALIGNANT HOPE, it is hope founded on delusion and denial, and it is just like CANCER, you have to CUT IT OUT IN ORDER TO SURVIVE. That kind of hope nails your feet to the floor when you know the “house is burning” and you stay just wondering if you can blow on the fire like a birthday cake candle and put it out.
That delusional hope that I held on to with my P son when he was 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 when he finally committed the murder and went to prison to stay a while….even after that I kept on with delusional malignant hope that ate my heart and soul like a cancer.
A sudden change in a person’s behavior CAN BE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, but even if the man was mentally ill, UNLESS HE IS AN IMMEDIATE DANGER TO HIMSELF OR OTHERS even a wife can’t FORCE someone to take medication. He may, indeed have started studdenly to exhibit mania of bi-polar or several other things might have happened, but it doesn’t matter in the PRACTICAL SENSE because she can’t fix him and he obviously doesn’t want to be fixed.
NO MATTER WHAT THE LABEL FOR THE “PROBLEM” IS, trying to fix it will make this woman’s life a living HELL.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:47am
blueskies says:
EC wrote: ‘Please do not call every behavior you do not like Sociopathy. There are other conditions that cause serious interpersonal difficulty.’
I think this is a such a good point. Human beings are all so complex an as a society all kinds of bad behaviour and exploitation seems to be encouraged.
I have done so much research over the last few months into personality disorders and mental health issues, not least beacause of my own depression and strange behaviour both as an enabler all these years and now as a ‘victim in recovery’. I am not very good at expressing myself,or very bright, Its mind boggling for a bear of little brain like me; the myriad of problems people have, personality wise or due to circumstances that can cause interpersonal difficulty.
But most of these things(most) are something that is happening to the poor person suffering from whatever the dysfunction is, The person most hurt is the sufferer.
So I keep coming back to the same same place and that is that S/P’s seem to be in a separate box to all of these other variations in human behaviour, and degrees of mental health because they LACK that ‘humanness.’
I feel like I could spot it a mile off.I hope I dont have that theory tested too often;)
Just my thinks.
Southern man said:”I might add that in the end, it is their lack of “humaness” that is one of the most shocking revelations of all.’And because of this lack, they are very capable of plowing their way through other peoples lives over and over again…. Rarely being held accountable for their actions…Those of us who are with human qualities will always be hurt and betrayed by them.” Well said.xx
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:49am
blueskies says:
Also – I agree with Oxy – that whatever the problem may be, trying to fix something that may be beyond repair will make your life a living hell.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:57am
learnthelesson says:
Oxy,
Said
“NO MATTER WHAT THE LABEL FOR THE “PROBLEM” IS, trying to fix it will make this woman’s life a living HELL”
IMHO, Lifes single most difficult and painful lesson to learn with loved ones, family and friends.
Essentially a living hell either way…but some peace and sanity when you chose to save yourself vs the other…
(
Life…sometimes…I just wanna kick it in its butt…
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 8:13am
Rosa says:
Blueskies”
“I feel like I could spot it a mile off.”
Are you saying you think you could spot a psychopath from “a mile off?”
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 8:24am
sugarandspice says:
Oxy,
In the weeks since I found this blog – and posted briefly – I’ve been steadily working my way through all the archived articles and other threads. I’ve learned so much and I’m rather giddy with all the new concepts and awareness in my head now!
I just wanted to say that I have really appreciated reading your posts and articles. I just love your writing style. It is so easy to absorb and learn from. It helps me ‘get it’ – for example the recent “feet nailed to the floor while the house is burning” analogy (?) of what Malignant Hope is. This is great – now I get it! And, while reading other posts of yours, including the story about your two ‘asses’, I just laughed and laughed and laughed.. which was significant all of it’s own accord – there has been very little laughter in my life since I ended a relationship with a N/P over a year ago.
Thank you again for sharing so many of your personal experiences and insights learned, and reassuring all the newbies, and not-so-newbies that it does indeed get better; that the despair can be replaced by times of joy and happiness. I’m just starting to really grasp this for myself, thanks to you and all the other caring, and insightful writers on LF.
I suspect I’m like many LF readers – who are all learning and quietly absorbing, but just don’t feel ready to share too much just yet, but at the same time are very appreciative of those who do.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 8:49am
blueskies says:
:S Yes Rosa. Ooooh I feel a severe boiking coming on….
xx
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 8:49am
Rosa says:
Blueskies:
I doubt that you have ever met or encountered a psychopath, or maybe you have and did not know it.
Their thespian skills are worthy of Oscar.
Even with all of the knowledge and experience I have gained, I am still so afraid of being “sucked in” again by yet another one.
When a psychopath is coming at you, I can almost guarentee that you will NOT be able to “spot it from a mile off.”
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:04am
James says:
“My name is Dylan and this is only the beginning.”
There is much I would comment on this description of himself or who he thinks “Dylan” is. But the last line chill me…
Is this a warning or some type of self prophecy?
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:16am
blueskies says:
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:33am
blueskies says:
I am well aware of their Thespian skills.
I have spent the last 5 months de-briefing.
And yes – although no one is beyond being fooled, I have a pretty good insight now that I didnt before… was being a bit flippant I guess.x
Please try not to invalidate me like that. It has upset me.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:36am
Rosa says:
Blueskies:
Wow! Then you are more confident than I am about being able to spot one again.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:38am
blueskies says:
Whatever. I think I’ll lay off this topic /thread. I just think I have learned an awful lot lately.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:40am
Elizabeth Conley says:
Dylan is not a well camper. I doubt he’s a Sociopath, but I don’t want him near me or my kids.
There are a lot of Dylans out there. Most of them are teen agers. Dylan’s “Fruitcake Manifesto” is the sort of thing we generally watch out for in our teens’ friends. To see this tripe coming out of a 25 year old is really peculiar.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:43am
Rune says:
Sugarandspice:
You’re right about Ox-Drover. She has a way with even some of us stubborn oxen and asses who think we “know better” and can help these people! If anyone could “fix a psychopath,” I’d put my money on her, but even she admits she couldn’t.
I’m glad you popped your head up, and welcome to the crowd of commenters.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:54am
blueskies says:
I just re-read what I wrote – and I have to say I am not very good at communicating and tend to be over optimistic in times of trouble. I can see how it rattled you Rosa. I am definately not walking about cock-a-hoop about my new insight into the existance of evil, but I definately know more than I did before. Mainly down to reading people’s stories here. I think I was trying to say something about how these people are different, they’re not running around naked or foaming at the mouth with a big label with ‘MAD’ strung round their necks… those are not so scary…(flippant again)… but, for me, I have learnt something very important about what to lookfor in people, feelings and instincts to take notice of… maybe I couldnt spot one a mile off…but I’ll certainly listen to the sirens.Somthing like that.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:04am
Rune says:
Blueskies: You’re making a good point — once we understand that these REALLY scary people are “not running around naked or foaming at the mouth with a big label with ‘MAD’ strung round their necks… ” we’ve taken a huge step forward.
The fact that you’ve learned to look for more subtle signs, and to pay attention to your feelings and instincts puts you miles ahead in the “game.”
What scares me, though, and Rosa might have been hinting at this, is when people read just enough to get a grip on their own situation, and then they think they know all the “red flags,” all the possible signs, and they are now “S/P-proof”!
I don’t get the feeling that you are that (dangerously!) certain of yourself. Even professionals who study psychopaths for a living can be fooled. None of us should ever assume that we are S/P-proof. We can hope, though, that we’d recognize one sooner, and know that we need to GET AWAY! (Or, in Rosa’s case, stay close by to watch over her niece and brother . . .)
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:13am
Rosa says:
Blueskies”
I did not mean to upset you.
I just don’t want to see you get hurt again.
If a psychopath heard you say that you could “spot it from a mile off”, they would make you eat those words.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:16am
blueskies says:
Dangerously certain of myself? I wish!
Like I said, I dont think I word things right.
All of our situations are different, no I may not be able to protect myself from now on, but I have to say I am pissed at being told that I have never encountered a s/p.
sigh.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:26am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Blueskies,
This is my take…with calmness, with a sense of total understanding of self-worth, self-respect, and self-trust….the interaction I have with a potential psychopath will be SIGNIFICANTLY reduced going further.
The red flags I am aware of put a percentage of them in the bin upon HELLO and brief conversation…
The red flags I have yet to be made aware of are being learned as I go and thus putting me way ahead of the game of where I was having no knowledge or preparedness about becoming a target. I am learning the tools and I am learning the ways in which I can self-protect while choosing stop. change direction.
I respectfully you Rosa that if a psychopath heard me say I could spot it from a mile off that they would TRY to make me eat those words…but if a Psychopath (S/N or Disorderd person or bad person) came close enough to my radar and started oozing with unusual kindness and bizarre humor or engage in one upping me or quickly trying to romance me or ever treated me badly or left me feeling awkward or uncomfortable or raised a hand, etc. etc. (any of the A-Z numerous red flags) I and MANY OF US would be able to spot him this time around faster than I could say SEE YA PSYCHO….
Question is how prepared are we to act on the red flags… think we are all getting more and more prepared with each passing day. Am I vulnerable to another personal hit from a psychopath — I guess anything is possible — but this time Im better prepared and unless I let my guard down and lose my self-awareness i dont believe Ill ever be in a fetal position again over a toxic relationship…because I wont be getting involved in one! And Rosa I think you would be able to react differently to one now too
)
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:28am
justabouthealed says:
First of all, Donna acknowledged that there could be other reasons that Dylan wrote what he did. But the point is, regardless of why DYLAN wrote it, shock value or what, it is a damn good representation of what a sociopath would write. Doesn’t mean he is one, as Donna acknowledges and some of us could write a good imitation of the rantings of a sociopath because unfortunately we’ve come to recognize a little bit about how they think. But it IS a great representation of how different they are from normal humans. And until you get that, really, really, really get that, I don’t think a person understands sociopathy.
On April 28th, Sandra from another site sent out in her newsletter a list of all the ways scientists are discovering that sociopaths are different from the rest of us in physical ways. The list had 39 individual items, such as “The amygdale in psychopaths have less reaction to fight-flight responses, causes them to feel restless, spurring them on to raising hell just for the excitement value.” These items have been documented by tests with MRI imaging, controlled studies, etc.
The P/S/N I was involved with had a sister with Down’s Syndrome. I used to teach retarded children and she is the only retarded child I met who was consistently aggressive, angry, etc. I now think it was a result of living with her P/S/N brother.
I also now think of him as just as damaged physically as she is. Emotionally retarded doesn’t quite capture it. But to meet him, at first you would not suspect that. A successful doctor, has made mega millions, very very smart. But now when I think of him, I feel so much sadness for him. Much more so than his sister, I think he never had a shot at being a fully functioning human being. That has ultimately replaced all the hurt and then anger I felt toward him….a raging anger! But now I truly feel sorry for him, but would never lift a finger to help him. Futile. Completely futile.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:38am
justabouthealed says:
One point I keep making, I know, I know, because it took me so long to get it, is that we MUST always keep in mind that the sociopath is bad news for everyone. EVERYONE. Sometimes the S doesn’t cause problems for someone because the S is sucking up to them for something they want, and they get it and just leave. Like a job recommendation. But if they choose to target someone, it WILL be something that person has to deal with.
BUT now that we know there are S’s out there, there ARE things we can do to better protect ourselves. And yes, many of us on lovefraud share traits that made us an easier and jucier target for a S. Some of those traits are STRONG good traits. And some are vulnerabilities that we can now work to resolve or protect. But the point is, in a world of good people like we have on lovefraud, our vulnerabilities would not matter, because no one would try to take advantage of them.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:50am
learnthelesson says:
JAH!!
)
says..
“But the point is, in a world of good people like we have on lovefraud, our vulnerabilities would not matter, because no one would try to take advantage of them.”
But the problem is I thought the world was full of good people…so my lesson was to work on my vulnerabilities across the board as it only helps me in healthy and unhealthy environments… It is true to continue to be ourselves and all that we are with everyone…while being consciously aware of our vulnerabilities and what we have learned from our experience with an extox and carry those tools with us for life…
Something so many keep pointing out is how different they are from normal humans…so in that sense I do believe… (oh no here i go again…
but I do believe some of my ex-tox “ways” were “ways” even he had no clue and was confused about my sudden reaction or comment to something he might have done — because they are so different they dont do what we expect them to do — and they dont necessarily know whats expected (barring the learned behaviors and common sense stuff that we all know…sometimes his lack of knowledge in social skills would get to me in my most vulnerable ways…so NOW THAT I KNOW…I dont let it get to my vulnerable area… does that make sense? Its almost reverse psychology in a sense — I am aware x is unhealthy so he is no longer on the same playing field as me )and I know its IRRELEVANT whether he knows how bad his choices are or not…Im just saying when you REALLY KNOW AND HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THESE CREATURES…they affect your strong and good traits and weaknesses less and less…and you just learn to stop and change direction.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:16am
justabouthealed says:
blueskies, you express yourself wonderfully and I have no doubt that you have encountered a P/S. It is rare to be mistaken about that, I think. If anything, most of us tend to give the person the benefit of the doubt, and hope it is something curable.
I have a relative that I think is a S. Even at birth, she would go rigid when picked up. She is a man eater. She is a dare devil way beyond normal, doing brave feats. Most people who meet her admire her tremendously. But she is an S. No doubt about it. ARRGGHHH. Any man I have seen her get involved with thinks he has died and gone to heaven. And I’m never close enough to warn them, and I doubt they would listen. She is a very seductive package, but she leaves them all in a fetal position on the floor, often their careers ruined too.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:17am
justabouthealed says:
learnthelesson….You nailed it I think!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 11:20am
slimone says:
Wow, this is a s manifesto, regardless of who/what wrote it. As for Valerie, I am glad she listened to her guts and cut bait.
In regard to malignant hope, or malignant optimism…I read this at my office the other day:
If you think everyone is good….then you haven’t met everyone.
As tongue in cheek as that is supposed to be, it stopped me dead in my tracks, got me laughing. I could see myself, through the years ‘believing’ everyone was good ‘deep down inside’. I think we all learn that stuff from our culture. And then if we’ve got crazies in our family, and the family requires us, as children, to catagorize them as normal….well then we learn to ‘normalize’ and see those who do terrible things to themselves and others as being good.
If molesting grandpa, alcoholic angry auntie, and selfish mom are all normal and good it is no wonder we develop unhealthy doses of malignant hope and optimism.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 12:14pm
Tilly says:
I believed (up until I met Oxy) that the reason psychopaths were like they were: was because they had been brutalised on every level as a child…like I had! It didn’t occur to me that “hang on, but I ‘m not a psychopath!” DUH…A HOMER!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 3:27pm
Ntmare says:
learnthelesson says:
humans…so in that sense I do believe… (oh no here i go again… but I do believe some of my ex-tox “ways” were “ways” even he had no clue and was confused about my sudden reaction or comment to something he might have done — because they are so different they dont do what we expect them to do — and they dont necessarily know whats expected (barring the learned behaviors and common sense stuff that we all know…
I remember noticing that over and over. She looked so puzzled like a child sometimes. Didn’t have a clue how she should respond. Big red flag!
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 5:22pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Sugarandspice,
Thank you, sweetie, I am glad that my ramblings have struck a nerve with you, and especially that my stories about Fat Ass and Hairy Ass made you LAUGH. The asses make ME laugh every day with their big floppy ears and “sot en thair ways” behavior.
Tilly, you are so right on, too, that they are what they are and not just because they were treated badly as children. (Some were and some weren’t) I can testify that my P son was never ABUSED, but boy O, does he pretend he was/is abused by me—and believe me if the cops would let me and his brothers in a room with him for half an hour he WOULD BE ABUSED.
Some times I still try to oget the “malignant hope” that my egg donor will “see the light”—I read this great book recently and I got this idea if she would just read it she would “see the light”—so I even ordered a copy for her, and was going to send it to her—sheeeeeeeeeT!!! WTF? Where did THAT idea come from? Out of the blue, obviously! OUt of the deeply buried desire I must still have to get through to her. NOT GONNA HAPPEN, OXY! Get over it!!!
I agree with slimone, if you think everyone is good, you just haven’t met everyone, but then I would change that to ANY one. LOL
Oh, well, onward and upward! Keep reading, keep learning, and internalize it the best you can! (((hugs))))
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 5:25pm
slimone says:
Tilly,
Me too. And I kept thinking the same thing: that we were kindred, injured spirits. That they needed lots of love and tenderness….like I did/do. Not to say that they may not have been brutalized. But from what I’ve read the abuse in their own backgrounds ‘flavors’ them (though I think they ALL taste like sh*t after you get a real mouthful), but does not turn them into p/n/s.
And as strange as it may sound there was a time when I wanted to be detached and ’strong’ like I perceived them to be.
Without intellectual/book-learning I kept trying to understand them from an emotional place. And I am admittedly a ‘romantic’ and an ‘individualist’ and a ‘victim’. So, I was ripe for the pickin’!
I have re-categorized many of my past relationships/friendships and can see how my own woundedness, and my belief that they were the ‘walking wounded’–like myself, made me feel lots of compassion and tolerance for their horrible acts.
If they gave me the sad story of their ‘brutalized’ pasts, I was an instant goner. Felt like I just found my soul mate.
I wish more information had been available 20 years ago about s/p/n’s, it would have been SO good to have found out about this then.
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Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 5:40pm
akitameg says:
Hey everyone–
I am freaking out. I was put on Wellbutrin two weeks ago for Major Depression/post sociopath.
Has anyone else ever been on it????????????????
It has eased my symptoms of depression, but I am noticing a lot of hair coming out on my brush etc.
could be coincidence.– something else. thyroid is fine as is nutrition.
no hormonal probs.
if anyone could tell me their experience with Wellbutrin=== I would really appreciate it.
I will see the shrink on Wed.
Love to all of you.
I hate psychopaths.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:20pm
slimone says:
akitmeg,
I lost a lot of hair too. Mine was stress related. And it didn’t show up right away, it was after I had a high level of stress, over a prolonged period of time.
I hate them too!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:30pm
Rune says:
Me, too. Two large patches. At the time it showed up, it was a year after I had fled the dangerous psychopath. I was working for someone who used to be a hairdresser, but who had reinvented herself as a businesswoman. She laughed and laughed at my bald spots.
Turned out, she was a psychopath. Guess what happened to the money she owed me for the work I did!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:33pm
Rune says:
The good news is that the hair grows back generally pretty quickly if this is stress related. You’re doing the right thing, Akitameg, by getting your life back on track.
I put my hair back in a clip that hid the spots. Don’t panic. This too will pass!
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:36pm
James says:
Diagnostic Criteria for Schizophrenia
A. Characteristic symptoms: Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):
* delusions
* hallucinations
* disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence)
* grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior
* negative symptoms, i.e., affective flattening, alogia, or avolition
Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person’s behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.
B. Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).
C. Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).
http://counsellingresource.com.....renia.html
Diagnostic Criteria for Schizotypal Personality Disorder
A. A pervasive pattern of social and interpersonal deficits marked by acute discomfort with, and reduced capacity for, close relationships as well as by cognitive or perceptual distortions and eccentricities of behavior, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
* ideas of reference (excluding delusions of reference)
* odd beliefs or magical thinking that influences behavior and is
* inconsistent with subcultural norms (e.g., superstitiousness, belief in clairvoyance, telepathy, or “sixth sense”; in children and adolescents, bizarre fantasies or preoccupations)
* unusual perceptual experiences, including bodily illusions
* odd thinking and speech (e.g., vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped)
* suspiciousness or paranoid ideation
* inappropriate or constricted affect
* behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar* lack of close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
* excessive social anxiety that does not diminish with familiarity and tends to be associated with paranoid fears rather than negative judgments about self
B. Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder.
C. The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.
Note: If criteria are met prior to the onset of Schizophrenia, add “Premorbid,” e.g., “Schizotypal Personality Disorder (Premorbid).”
http://counsellingresource.com.....typal.html
Or does Dylan have a cluster B personality disorder?
Or maybe Dylan is just acting out of social norms trying to find out just who he is or who he thinks he is? Something teenagers do before they reach maturity.
Really I for one don’t know but I would worry if I was Valerie. She may want to seek some type of therapy just to get a handle on her feeling and desirers on what is happening to her husband.
But I agree with Donna that he did describe to us in part what a sociopath is.
I for one can only hope that Dylan will at some time reach out to others who understand just how complex we are as human being and get the help I believe this person needs.
One question I asked myself is that if this is a “love letter” what type of woman would be attracted to this type of person? But then again how many “ladies” fall in love with serial killers after they are caught and are in prison?
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 6:44pm
OxDrover says:
JAMES!!! GREAT POST! THANKS!!! All good food for thought! The bottom line is though, Valerie needs to get away ASAP, because she cannot “fix” this man.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 7:47pm
newlife08 says:
HAS ANYONE HEARD FROM MATT ?????
Has he said he is taking a break ????
I haven’t seen him post – maybe I just missed them.
Concerned……………
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:22pm
Rosa says:
NewLife:
I was wondering the exact same thing about Matt!!!
It has been a week since he last posted.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:25pm
newlife08 says:
OXY -
Did MAtt say he was going MIA for awhile?
It’s not like him to just go quiet is it??
I know he was job hunting and had recently spent time with his folks.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 9:37pm
OxDrover says:
As far as MATT being MIA, not sure, didn’t see anything he posted about going MIA–he’s done it a couple’a times though, once for vacation, and once when he had to see something about an ill parent. So I’m not concerned, my guess is he will be back here soon.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:08pm
Joy says:
Great article. Great posts. I too am missing Matt. Hope he is well and enjoying a moment of bliss somewhere.
Slimone I’m loving you. Yep, won’t forget the taste of that in my mouth any time soon.
I’ve been staying busy, trying to have fun, make new friends, Put out of my mind the whole court thing. My Dad is coming to me my strong shoulder to lean on and was witness to my trip to the domestic violence shelter years ago though they have lost my records and are now representing the poor “abused” ex sp because I hurt his little feelings. Well he threw a sofa on top of me so oh well. Lawyer on Friday and then court next Tuesday the 9th. Prayers please for the open eyes of the judge and my step daughter’s safety as she lives alone with this inhuman man.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 1 June 2009 @ 10:57pm
Tilly says:
Whats MIA?
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 1:50am
Tilly says:
I feel like running away for ever from everyone…but where to? And who from? I’m a mess tonight.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 1:56am
shabbychic2 says:
Tilly: “Missing In Action”
Hang in there, if you wait a few days we can all run away together
!!!!!!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:16am
sstiles54 says:
I try to shy away from labeling people & first impressions. This guy made my skin crawl. I truly hope that Valerie is far away from Dylan. I think he has the potential for doing some serious harm. Since I’ve been reading here at LF these last couple years, there have been a couple of s’s who posted their BS. Both times I had to log off & get my mind on something else. It felt like being violated or something. Almost like finally getting the courage up to go back into the ocean to wade around a bit, then here comes Jaws, theme song & all. Very unnerving for me.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:50am
James says:
Tilly and shabbychic2
“Hang in there, if you wait a few days we can all run away together”
Count me in!
We do have our good days and then those “not so good days”. And to think this current US economic situation isn’t helping as well.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 6:16am
James says:
Thanks OxDrover,
I knew a woman who’s husband also show signs that pointed more to SPD (Schizotypal Personality Disorder) then PD. Her husband was very physically and emotionally (distance cold) abusive toward her and then her having an emotional affair with a person online that did turn out to be a PD didn’t help matters much with her marriage. Sorry to say but because of his personal mental problems and her infidelity it destroy their relationship/marriage. I often wonder how she is doing having lost contact with her as well. I was contacted by her because of some of my post concerning this issue. I did what I could to help and gave her as much information that I had at the time. But in the end each one of us must take full responsibility for ourselves and our actions.
What the saying? God helps those that help themselves…
Hope you have a good day!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 6:31am
Morgan says:
My experience with the psychopath has been one of the greatest lessons in my life. I recently saw my ex-boyfriend–as we belong to the same sports club–and felt sadness for him. He is a defective human being. It pains me to say such a thing but it’s true.
During our last meeting he said he doesn’t cheat with married women because he doesn’t want to hurt anyone! I reminded him that he told me he was with his next girlfriend for six weeks–which meant he dated her while he was still with me! He look absolutely puzzled at this comment! He lies so much he can’t remember it all!
I recently read “Women Who Love Psychopaths” and it has helped me understand how my temperment and characteristics that make me a successful social worker cause vulnerability toward these men. I love to be with outgoing, exciting, charming, witty, intelligent, successful men. I’m attracted to high energy. I could also describe myself with those characteristics. However, ‘m a human being.
But I’m fishing in a pool of men that includes psychopaths. But not everyone described above is a psychopath. I am learning to be more discriminating.
I met with a psychopath in my teens who is spending his life in prison. From that experience I was able to pick up on men who might do physical violence to me. My radar in that capacity has proven beneficial. Now, I’m learning to pick up on men who might do emotional harm to me.
In my young years I thought no physcial harm would ever come to me because I was too nice a person. My mother taught me to treat others as I wanted to be treated. I assumed that meant other people learned that same lesson. I was innocent of the ways of the world. My parents were overprotective to shield me from harm. But that increased my risks.
I am not going to change the wonderful qualities that make me who I am. But I will learn to be less vulnerable to men who lack any humanity. Another book that has been helpful is “Something More: Excavating Your Authentic Self.” I deserve to be treated respectfully. I will not betray myself again by allowing any man to treat me badly. And if a man makes me feel bad twice–whether I’m with him or not–then he’s got to be history. Or herstory. Or hystory. (lol)
I recently had another encounter with a psychopath I met online. Internet dating has to be the psychopath’s dreamworld. That relationship lasted 10 days and not the two years of the previous boyfriend. My previous boyfriend lived out of town which made it easy for him to hide his true self. Once he moved five minutes from me his true self was fully revealed. My new rule is the first time he lies then I don’t want to see him again.
The 10 day psychopathic event was ended because I out-clevered the guy. But then he made it very easy. All I had to do was “just see.” Fortunately, it ended before I could be more bonded to him. (Great info in the book about how women bond but the psychopath only attaches.)
I also found the information on seduction techniques extremely helpful. I’ll be careful about future dates who try to seduce me. I’ve been encouraged to have sex but never seduced. Until my last date…! Just as people can’t understand the psychopath unless they’ve encountered one, I think people can’t really know seduction unless they’ve actually encountered a seducer. I wished I’d read that before my last date! I’ll just try to remember it as an extremely great time not to be repeated again.
Anyway, I must say that everyone should read “Women Who Love Psychopaths”!
Namaste.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 8:58am
OxDrover says:
Dear Morgan,
“The first time they lie to me they are history”
That is a VERY SMART CHOICE on your part! I not only apply this to “men” but to ANYONE in my life.
You are also right I think, in the book “Women who love Psychopaths” I think it answers the questions we all must have about “why me?”
I am reading a book now “Wolves in Sheeps clothing” about abusive people, he is actually talking about psychopaths, but calls them AGGRESSIVE (which is a great term for psychopaths that anyoen can understand) and sub divides them into OVERT-AGGRESSORS and COVERT-AGGRESSERS, and that too, I think is quite valid.
He postulates that the “aggression” of these people is to “get what they want” and he says some only “don’t care” if they hurt you in getting what they are “self-entitled” to, but others get off on “hurting you” in the process (either that or your pain is what they are aggressing to get) and he pretty well covers the spectrum.
In a way, I think it might be a good way to “label” the Ps becasuse with the professionals fighting over what to call them they are confusing the people. I suspect that there are too many narcissistic professionals who are trying to “win” in the “name the critter” game and the poor public gets confused into thinnking only serial killers are psychopaths, but just about anyone can grasp that a person is “aggressive” either overtly or covertly to get what they feel entitled to.
It’s a good read and I highly recommend it along with “Women who Love Psychopaths” to help clear up what is going on with them, and HOW they operate. He gives some great examples in “Wolves” of not just the top dog P, but the underhanded, under the radar abuser who is “Mr./Ms. Nice.”
Glad to see you back, Morgan. GOOD POST!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:14am
Matt says:
newlife08. OxDrover, Rosa and All:
Thanks for the concern over my being MIA.
Have been dealing with a very ill parent this last week. Am sitting in the waiting room outside the surgical wing as I type. Am absolutely exhausted. Will try to touch base in the next couple of days.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:51am
usedabused says:
Women Who Love Psychopaths did more for me than any book I have ever read. It so well explains the bonding/attachment process and fully relieves ones guilt that she is somehow to blame.
Been off awhile because this debacle left me in danger or losing my home, and I’ve just been working until my eyes cross. Now dealing with a few new situations: an ex-b S who has custody of a gal’s kids and the CPS folks conned, and a business S.
The guy who was his victim is devastated, never had anything like this happen to him. Saw a book “Snakes in Suits”, looked on point. Anyone read it?
Once aware of the syndrome, I pick up on it, hopefully not too often. With the ex-B S, there was a meeting where we talked about the most awful things, and his expression never changed. Not a glimmer of emotion.
And Matt, if you’re still around, your letter is in my purse, ready to go. Thank you Counselor!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:53am
Rosa says:
Matt:
There you are!! I was missing you! I had a feeling you were taking care of your Mom.
Blessings & prayers to you, Matt.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:08am
Joy says:
Matt, great to see you post. Sorry you aren’t feet in the sand enjoying yourself somewhere. My prayers to you and your family. May you find peace and strength to get you through it. Hugs and love from your LF friend.
Morgan, just last night I ended a new friendship with a guy who lied to me just once about something ridiculous. This after a conversation where I told him honesty is an absolute must with me and a 24 hr a day expectation. So he quickly found himself deleted from my facebook, phone, and life. Gone and no harm done. Over reacting maybe but better self than sorry is my motto now. If you are making me feel bad or causing my gut to clench “BUBYE, Loser” ain’t got time for that!
Thanks for all the book recommendations. I think I’ll spend the summer reading as guys are totally a pain in my butt and I’m tired of dramarama. A dude free summer is my plan.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:20am
OxDrover says:
Dear Joy,
I think that is a great idea about “no dating” for a while. I have seen so many people (and me myself) who try to get back into dating, thinking we are doing “fine” when in reality we are still HEALING and need some more time with ourselves.
A new relationship takes TIME AND ENERGY and since both time and energy are finite things, I think the better choice is to focus ALL our time and energy on OURSELVES.
I am learning (finally in my old age) to focus my time and energy on things that are IMPORTANT rather than on less important things. It is EASY to let unimportant things DISTRACT us from our own healing. While I think ALL or at least most of us would like to have a CLOSE, GOOD RELATIONSHIP in our lives, there isn’t much chance of acheiving that UNTIL WE ARE WHOLE WITHOUT IT.
A relationship doesn’t make us whole, it should be TWO WHOLE people making up a couple, rather than two half people trying to make a whole person. Unfortunately when we are not WHOLE in ourselves, we see the “relationship’a s a way to make ourselves “whole” but it never works that way, we lower our expectations and get trapped again with a P.
I am SO PROUD OF AND FOR YOU for ditching this guy pronto for ONE LIE. GREAT!!!!! TOWANDA!!!!
I literally made a “deal breaker” list of what I would not tolerate, and LIES, EVEN ONE, tops the list. Not only with men (if I ever get asked out on a date again! LOL) but in anyone close to me.
I’m glad to see you making progress! (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:31am
Donna Andersen says:
Used Abused:
We have written about Snakes in Suits:
http://www.lovefraud.com/blog/.....ive-suite/
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:49am
Morgan says:
OxDrover,
Thanks for your comment!
I am definitely going to get the book you recommended.
While I feel no longer in danger of the psychopaths in my past, I will be more cautious in my future. Dating in the 50s is much different than in my 20s. I lived with my husband for 20+ years; so, dating is a new thing for me. (I chose not to date while married. lol) I suppose in the late teens and early 20s psychopathy may not have been as obvious in the males I knew. (The psychopath in prison was a stranger to me.) But I never dated anyone for long enough to find out.
Now that I’ve grown-up I want a healthy relationship. I’m wiser for all my life experiences. And I’m not ever going to settle for nothing less than the truly “something more” I deserve!
I’ve taken my profiles off dating websites. I’m planning on being alone and getting to appreciate myself more. My divorce will not be final until January 2010. I’m going to work on strengthening me so that I may endure whatever or whoever I encounter without losing any of my power.
I’m going on a vacation in a few months–during the anniversary date of my most painful encounter with my ex-boyfriend. The one where he refused to console me when my son was in the hospital and I thought he was going to die. He was too busy talking to his next girlfriend and turned me away not once but twice.
During my vacation I will be visiting a place that I’ve dreamed about going to. I was waiting for someone special to go with. But I realize I’m special enough to go alone. For really, I’m never alone. Just lonely! (I’m working on that!)
My spirituality has helped beyond any words that I can use to describe.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:06am
Rune says:
Usedabused: Yes, get “Snakes in Suits.” The book describes how S/Ps maneuver in business settings, and they are just as devastating in the workplace as they are in the home. The book is written by Paul Babiak, an industrial psychologist, and Robert Hare, who developed the PCL-R and wrote “Without Conscience.
Some years ago I knew a psychiatrist who had started a high-tech business that provided amazing technology to the mental health field. He was doing well, and his company was being well accepted. I saw him a couple of years ago. He had no idea that his VP of technology was a P until it was too late. The VP sabotaged everything in the company, tore it apart, lied to investors and partnering companies, and destroyed the psychiatrist’s entire business, financial life, and family along the way.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:08am
learnthelesson says:
Dear Matt,
My prayers and well wishes for you…take care of yourself…keep us posted. xoxo
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:15am
Morgan says:
Joy,
Great on the “deal breakers!”
When I confronted the last internet date (or as I call my last clinical-experience) he wanted to meet with me to explain. I said no. He wanted to continue calling me. I said no.
Then I started wondering if I overreacted. NO!!! I didn’t!! But when I was with him it was euphoria! Very addictive. But I broke his spell. And I do believe he seduced me. Okay, this is too much. But he was from Translyvania. lol lol lol
I’m not kidding. Reading the information on seduction in “Women Who Love Psychopaths” made me realize the techniques he used and how I was susceptible. I’ll recognize a “seducer” next time.
Thanks for sharing.
Namaste.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:18am
Morgan says:
Rune,
I get so tired of people saying that because someone is a menal health professional they should recognize Ps. Thanks for your post. I hope that psychiatrist gets his life back together.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:20am
akitameg says:
could someone else please answer my Welbutrin concern about ten posts above?”
love to all of you
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:23am
learnthelesson says:
Akitameg,
I googled Wellbutrin and hair loss….it seems that with many SSRI’s and antidepressents there is an association with hair loss as a side effect. As you know stress, anxiety, depression can be a trigger too, not to mention an iron deficiency, etc. The M.D. that did your bloodwork, did he do an iron test on you? I would possibly check back with him first to see if he can rule in or out any medical reasons for hairloss…if everything checks out ok (blood tests/iron tests)..then maybe talk to your therapist about other options if you feel the webutrin is causing too significant of a problem for you.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:49am
blueskies says:
Morgan – I think maybe the only people who have any chance of recognising these creatures, health professionals or not are those who have encountered them and had that light ‘go on’.
I often think that Health and Social care professionals across the board, especially those early on in their careers, have a whole lot more they need to learn from patient and carer experiences( or in this context victim experiences) than can ever be learned through study or even professional practice. That’s just an opinion, dont any one get cross:S xx
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:58am
Joy says:
Oxy and Morgan, thanks for the thumbs up to my new found ability to say Good-Bye! If I had learned that long ago, I would have spared myself a lot of hurt and wasted time and energy. Morgan, I love that you went alone to where you wanted to go. I have that problem of postponing life enhancing experiences while endlessly waiting for that special someone. Thanks for the reminder and we are the only special someones that we need in our lives. For too long, I have felt like a spectator sitting on the side lines watching bad plays on the field of my life. I finally know that I need to get up and actively participate in the game and become not just a first class player but one heck of my own personal cheerleader.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 12:04pm
blueskies says:
‘For too long, I have felt like a spectator sitting on the side lines watching bad plays on the field of my life. I finally know that I need to get up and actively participate in the game and become not just a first class player but one heck of my own personal cheerleader.’
Oh!I feel so much like this. Its hard though isn’t it:( I am so much better at cheerleading everyone else, I spend so much energy on that and wait to be cheered in return!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 12:10pm
learnthelesson says:
“For too long, I have felt like a spectator sitting on the side lines watching bad plays on the field of my life. I finally know that I need to get up and actively participate in the game and become not just a first class player but one heck of my own personal cheerleader.’
I have recently returned to my favorite park for walking/biking/running…In the past I would usually only do these things with the ex or with a friend in tow..now I lace up my sneaks, grab my ipod, and JUST DO IT! I bring my dog (for moral support
)…I hold my head high and strut along to my favorite songs, smiling, laughing, and yes folks…sometimes STILL crying when I let a song get to me (sunglasses are a MUST 
…but I am for the first time in my life cheering myself on…with whatever I want to do that feels right, and good and healthy FOR ME, ALL BY MYSELF AND I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT!!!!! AINT NO TIME LIKE THE PRESENT…OUT WITH THE OLD IN WITH THE NEW….ME!!! EXTOX WHO?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The one who I made bad choices with and the one who made really bad choices with me?? LIVE AND LEARN!!!!! LOTS OF LOVING AND LAUGHING AROUND THE HORIZON WITH YOURSELF AND GOOD SOULS!!!!! LET GO!!!1
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 12:27pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Meg,
Hair loss is SEASONAL and also a response to STRESS, it is not I think a side effect of Welbutrin. Welbutrin is one of the better of the AD medications that I know of. I have taken it myself and Rx’d it some too. It actually works with ADHD adults and has less sexual side effects than many of the AD drugs so men tend to like it better.
It takes about 4 weeks or so to see the effect you will get. It does NOT make you in “la la” land you should just feel “more normal” and less ‘down” so much. It won’t cause you to feel euphoric like a tranqualizer might ( such as valium). I iam currently taking effexor (the generic kind taken twice a day because of cost, rather than the once a day kind) I can definitely tell if I cut my dose or miss one or two through neglect of taking it) I was taking more than twice the dose I am now, but the dose I was on was necessary at the height of the chaos when I was crying uncontrollably 24/7.
I figure I will have to be on this dose the rest of my life, but you know, thati’s OKAY. I have a chemical imbalance just like a diabetic does and sometimes you have to take medicine for the rest of your life for some problem, an dit sure beats the ALTERNATIVE. There is some evidence that PERMANENT changes are done to our jbrain by HEAVY STRESS, AND CONTINUAL STRESS, but it doesn’t mean there is anything “wrong” per se with us or that we are crazy, just INJURED.
I’ve had so many patients come to my office depressed and I would give them an RX for medication (I also made them get therapy as well) and they would come back to me in a few months crying again—BECAUSE THEY HAD QUIT THEIR MEDICATION—usually because “I just hate to take pills and I was feeling so much better—sheeeet! Then why the heck did you quit the very medication that was making you feel better? THEN, they would RINSE AND REPEAT THIS WHOLE SCENARIO OVER AND OVER—frustrating to a clinician for sure. So STAY ON YOUR MEDS or before you quit, talk to your prescriber for sure! (((hugs))))
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 1:16pm
a_real_wife says:
Hi All,
Going back up this thread ab out halfway – *SHOCK-a-ROO!” – I hadn’t heard of ” – isearch – ” before – but searched myself and there were 3 freaking profiles – so I went to each of them and blanked out my personal info; searched for others on there, people who wouldn’t WANT to be found for whatever reason, and found two pages for my little brother!
Personally, I use “zabasearch DOT com” for my searches – and I wanted to share that resource here with e1 – you can find a wealth of info…be sure to KEEP SAFE if you DO have profiles out there – and don’t pay “intelius” for search info – UNLESS you can use property records for a divorce settlement, or the like. I will add “isearch” to my many resources. Believe me, you cannot have too many ways to research s/p/n individuals!
*hugs*
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 1:33pm
Morgan says:
After posting, reading the posts today, I came across this. I wanted to share it with ya’ll. It is quite profound and most helpful to me in getting past being stuck with what I want. Sometimes, the Dalai Lama says, not getting what you want is a stroke of luck!
I am reading “Shadow Dance: Liberating the Power & Creativity of Your Dark Side” by David Richo. He is a psychotherapist. The excerpt below follows Buddhist philosophy but I think it can be helpful whatever your spiritual beliefs are. I plan on reading it over and over again every day until it is incorporated into my Being.
The Practice:
Read the following aloud. Write it out in your own words and repeat it each day until you finish reading this book.
I have it in me to enjoy desire and be free of its grip over me. I can become free of the habit of grasping the transitory and believing it has permanent gifts to give me. When I am caught in desire, I exaggerate and inflate the value and appeal of what I want. I act as if it were all there could be for me. Under the spell of desire, I go to sleep and become obsessed at the same time. As long as I act as if such delusions are all that compose me, I cannot contact the profound depths of my own potential. Potential means power, and my power is in the hands of the tyrant of ego as long as I remain imprisoned in my illusions.
The most inveterate and insidious habit of my ego is to believe that what I need is outside myself. To be fooled by such an empty promise is the most intrusive obstacle to enlightenment. When I renounce my preoccupation with the necessary outside, I liberate my boundless inner untapped potential. Renunciation does not consist in giving up my human pleasures but in giving up my unproportional expectations from these pleasures. Once I stop searching the streets, I can go down to the wine cellar of my own house, where so many vintages are gathering dust as they await uncorking. What is missing has always been and only is I, the best wine saved till last and waiting, wanting to be poured. “Be not afraid, it is I.”
Namaste.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:30pm
Tilly says:
Not much good going down to the cellar if you are an acloholic who was brought up by psychopaths. Not much down there in the cellar for moi, aye Rosa!
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:48pm
Tilly says:
Shabbychic:
Thankyou! If your all coming with me then i can easily hang in there! xoxo
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 2:57pm
OxDrover says:
TILLY! BOINK!!!! That is the sound of my iron skillet hitting the top of your thick skull!
YOU ARE SOOOOOOO WRONG!!!! There is LOTS OF WONDERFUL VINTAGE “YOU” DOWN IN THE CELLAR! It is hidden behind all the TRASH that your P parents left there, that may be true, but it is STILL THERE MY WONDERFUL FRIEND!!!!
So, those of us that have been raised by the self-absorbed enablers and abusers, we must clean our cellars to
FIND THE GOOD STUFF, it is there, it was always there, we just didn’t see it!!!!
((((hugs))))) NOW CLEAN THAT CELLAR OUT! OXOXOXO OXY
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:20pm
kindheart48 says:
hey guys, having a very hard time. Got the s out of my life and still dealing with long term effects, loss of weight, not back to work yet etc. and now i have my dad (narcissist) who is terminally ill and a brother whi i suspect is a s or at very least alcoholic and he is stabbing me in the back and i’ve tried so hard to get the approval of these two , and all iget is treated like crap. My youngest son and i went up to visit my dad yest and he was n’t well, sleeping and didn’t look very good and it really upset me. Then i get to hear that because of my visit my dad’s blood pressure went up. My ex sister in law informed me of this. Then i have a stepmother and her sister who never leave the room so i can visit so i’ve just given up. My youngest leaves for Banff tomorrow back to where he works and they see how i’ve been treated and i sit here and cry and try to understand why i keep getting this treatment and crap whe n i know i’ve done nothing to deserve it. you’d think at a time lik e this it would bring the best in them but as my one gf says i have to just accept that this is the way they are. The s/daugher drug addcict keeps calling and i even went so far as to tell her about my dad and how sick he is and nothing not even a sorry. What a leach is all i can conjure up, just like the article i just was reading aobut parasites and leaches, no shame to people like that. I don’t know how to deal with my Dad as he is so controlled and brainwashed by my brother for money etc. Then add the step mother and her controlling sister and i just give up. I called my brother on what he said and i was so hurt and crying, but i at least told him what i thought , that nobody even likes him or this sister of my stepmothers, not that they care. I’m done feeling like an alien when i’ve done nothing to these people. There is a farm involved and it’s a long sordid story but suffice it to say that i let my brother manipulate me into taking my grandmother(whom adored me and i her and i looked after visiting all on my own as her sn and grandson didn’t even bother) and having the farm left to my brother an d i superceding my stepmother. Then my brother totally turned the story around as if it were my idea and i had no intentions of the sort, i was just protecting my own interests and doing what he wanted. I know the truth and it has now worked against him as he would have pissed it all away by now and will in the future if given the opportunity i know 110% that it would happen but i come off as being the bad person . Im sick of all the lies and bullshit that he spews and i can’t beleive that my Dad can’t open up his eyes and see these people for who they are. Any advice would be appreciated. love kindheart
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 4:44pm
Rosa says:
Kindheart:
You did not cause your Dad’s blood pressure to go up. That is ridiculous. If anything, you are probably the one person who he DOES want at his bedside.
I would tell you to just concentrate on your sick Father. Forget everything else, if you can.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 5:06pm
JaneSmith says:
Morgan,
Thanks for sharing that lovely passage with LF.
I have been “striving” (magic word here) for years to smother my bratty ego. It just stirs up nothing but trouble for me, repeatedly prattling on about how I need this or I need that, when in actuality…….having my ego stroked gives me no long term satisfaction, contentment whatsoever.
For years, especially in my 20’s, I needed the constant admiring attention of men as if that “corrected” or “fixed” some brokenness inside myself. It never did. It was a shallow and transitory illusion as you have quoted. I was a cute girl and men noticed. Big deal. Men notice cute girls all the time so I was no exception.
Stupid insecurity ego stroking which most certainly attracted the snake charmers and ne’er do wells, to put it nicely. I was confused, really I was. I thought I was somehow worthy if a dude wanted to have sex with me.
Wow, I don’t miss that sad, insecure, clueless little girl I was. Believe me, I have NO scorn for her….only compassion. Nowadays, I prefer NOT to be noticed by guys. First, because I’m tired of their bullshit. Second, the mating ritual and the small talk it entails bores me. (as in…”I’d rather be reading than chatting with this guy. My books are always much more interesting)
What does the mean? Am I succeeding in some way to stomp on my deceptive ego? Or after a life time of crappy involvements with men, I’m plain tuckered out!
Good!…That’s fine with me! I’m no longer that shy, scared creature I was and I DO enjoy (like the sweetheart LTL says) going places by myself, looking at the world and all the beauty that surrounds us, just….living as best as I can.
I truly think that passage is wise beyond wise and I so do hope to tap into my own “power potential” not for the sake of harming others but for my own spirituality to increase, to grow stronger and more enduring until I can finally journey through life with grace and serenity.
That is my most fondest endeavor. It truly is.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 6:00pm
OxDrover says:
Kinidheart,
These people are NOT going to change, no matter who is dying. PERIOD. END OF LESSON.
Therefore, if you go to see them, no matter what your intentions are, you will get nothing but GRIEF. I am sorry that your family is psychopathic/dysfunctional, but YOU CANNOT change that, and they WILL NOT change, so you have two, and ONLY TWO choices.
1) continue to go see them, and they will treat you like chit
2) Quit trying to go see them, accept the fact that they ARE chit, and will never change, and be happy with yourself in spite of what trash your family is.
I decided to take CHOICE #2 because as long as I kept thinking that things were going to change with choice #1, I stayed injured and in pain.
NO CONTACT—I will not even go to my mother’s bedside if she is dying or to her funeral afterwards. I made the decision. It is FINAL, I don’t want toxic people in my life.
AS LONG AS YOU HANG AROUND TRASH (NO MATTER WHAT THE RELATIONSHIP IS BY BLOOD OR OTHERWISE) YOU WILL GET NOTHING BUT PAIN FROM THEM.
It is like hitting youself in the thumb with a hammer repeatedly, when are you going to “get it” that the only way to stop your thumb hurting is to QUIT IT?
As long as you believe in “magical” thinking that there is ANYTHING that will “bring out the best in them” you will continue to hit yourself with the hammer, over and over and over —just SAY NO to pain!@
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 6:15pm
kindheart48 says:
Thanks Rosa and Ox, i know im the black sheep of the family as i have been made to be it not by my choice i know. They are getting exactly what they prob want and that is for me to stay away like i usually have done but then they are getting to keep me from my Dad ( he is a very caring person just selfish and self centred) . Im not sure that my Father is as toxic as my brother and my sister in law thinks not the case with him even though she’s disappointed in him with her children(his little grandchildren). I just don’t want them controlling and getting what they want at such a crutial time but i have to admit i will prob just keep getting hurt if i go anywhere near them. So sad as my two boys are good kids and they have to sit and watch me get as my youngest (who sadly just left for Banff an hour ago) says, i’m “a softy trying to rub against callouses” is his term for this. Sad but true. I am going to try and just concentrate on getting back to work and my own sons as they unfortunately have their own issues with their dad as well. I just feel like they are going to make me the bad person when i’ve taken so much already and i know i’ve done nothing to deserve it other than be here.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:30pm
kindheart48 says:
i should mention as well that i’ve not gotten a dime from anyone and that’s just fine by me and my brother on the other hand has never stopped taking, to this day he is holed up in my dad’s shop in a lientu of sorts and has blown at least half a million of my moms, (deceased and penniless due to him, my dad, my grandmother etc.) and has nothing to show for it. Familiy responsibility is involved for his child support and he spends like a dozen drunken sailors but my Dad doens’t want to see himi that way so he just has kept inabling him. I on the other hand have not asked for a single dime and have survived on my own. I have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about and this is prob what burns my brother but the jerk should be grateful for all he has been given. I would seriously be retired on what he’s pissed away (sorry for the words). Detaching is so hard when this is the only family i have sans my own sons but i know i’ve been doing it all along really up until my dad getting sick . love kindheart
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:36pm
Rosa says:
Kindheart:
I can relate to a lot of what you are saying.
If I had a loved laying in the hospital bed, and MY sister-in-law told me to stay away, or even insinuated it, I would go for her throat.
But, then again, she is a psychopath, and I am just looking for a reason to get my hands around her neck.
I give you a lot of credit for putting up with soooo much.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 7:50pm
Rosa says:
Kindheart:
And if you want privacy when you go visit your Dad, ASK FOR PRIVACY.
You are his daughter. You are next-of-kin.
You are entitled to that.
Tell the step-mother to go get a cup of coffee or something to eat. Or, maybe the nurses could clear the room for you?
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 8:10pm
Stargazer says:
First of all, Morgan, loved your post. I do feel that when I am looking outside of myself for something or someone in order to be happy, I have set myself up in the most defeating way. I was just doing it yesterday with my therapist, when I was mad that he could only be a therapist and not the family I need (I guess they call this transference).
Kindheart, this is a good seque (sp?) into my response to your struggles with your narcissistic family (that I can totally relate to). I just want to say that at the very core of the pain and darkness in my life is constant realizing over and over again that my family was/is not capable of loving me. Not only that, but they used me to try and fill their needs.
My biological father died about 6 years ago. I never had much relationship with him. When my mother and stepfather moved us out of state, my father basically just disappeared. I always longed for him and wondered when he would come and “save” me. Then I had a very telling dream about him a week or so ago. I dreamt that he was teaching at my old junior high school and was getting along well with all the students, except me. He wasn’t speaking to me. I was hurting that he had abandoned me. AND HE WAS ANGRY AT ME FOR PULLING AWAY FROM HIM. This is the narcissistic dilemma. Though I was the child, he expected me to comfort him during the divorce with my mother. I was 5 years old at the time!! I woke up from the dream in a rage. I am just really seeing the narcissism. This continues to be very painful for me. I try my best to just feel the pain, you guys. I can’t say I have gotten to the bottom of it. But I have started having goals and making plans for my life that I’m excited about. This is new for me. I’ve been in a rut for many years.
I just think that realizing our parents didn’t/couldn’t love us is one of the hardest things to face. It’s easy to get into bargaining with this and try to change them. I have worked on my mother for many years to no avail. Narcissists do not change. I’m sorry your family is like this too.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 8:25pm
Morgan says:
JaneSmith, I was one of those cute girls, too! We could have been twins…!!
Stargazer, I realize that pleasure is what I find when I look outside myself. Happiness truly does come from within. Truth may hurt my feelings but deception, lies, trickery all cause suffering. I am choosing not to suffer. It is up to me. People who I have encountered that were evil certainly caused suffering. But I have learned to work through that agony…because on the other side of it I find treasures. While in the middle of it, I have felt overwhelmed and absolutely crushed. There’s truth to “time heals all wounds.” I also believe “time wounds all heels.” People just can’t go through life destroying others without having severe consequences. There is justice–seen or unseen.
What I want is to learn lessons without experiencing such suffering. So, I’m taking an adventure of a new kind. I’ve decided to have a love affair with life (something from “Something More: Excavating Your Authentic Self). It’s a different sort of path. But I’m determined to increase my happiness. Happiness can be a permanent state of being.
I saw the Dalai Lama in Atlanta in 2007. He was the most joyful person I’ve ever seen in my life. I think he must be onto something…!
I’ve enjoyed these posts today. Thank you, everyone, for your kindness. There are loving people in the world.
And Kindheart–I hope you find your world filled with more loving people. You have a right to happiness. And…you have a right to talk to your father. Maybe you could get a nurse to help you. If Hospice is involved those social workers are incredible. If you tell them that you need to speak to your father alone I believe that could make that happen.
Namaste.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:31pm
OxDrover says:
Kind heart,
Look at what you said, “He is a very caring person, just selfish and self centered”
That is like saying “he is a NICE person, except when he is robbing banks”
KH, your father is NOT a caring person AND Selfish and self centered. He is one OR the other, but cannot be BOTH.
Your obviously MIXED and contradictory feelings about and for him I think are what is keeping you in the stew and pain and chaos.
I think it is fairly normal for us (humans) to want our parents to love us, but at the same time, when they are incapable of doing so (selfish and self centered) like mine are & were, the best thing is to ACCEPT that they are like they are and either decide to see them knowing that, or to go NC and keep away from them. Stop the mmixed messages to yourself, and decide how YOU feel about HIM. (((hugs))))
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:38pm
henry says:
Akitameg – I was on welbutrin for 6 months – I think it helped with the depression, it did not make me happy, but helped with anxiety more than anything. The only side affect’s I had was a state of numbness, it also affected my erections, but living with the emotional and physical effects of being with a socipath I figured ‘hey I dont need or care about sex anyhow, so I continued taking them until recently. I got off the welbutrin and started taking Sam-E – a vitamin supplement someone mentioned on this blog. So now I am past that awful anxiety and severe depression and yep, the other side effect improved but – oh well – …Take the welbuterin for 6 months and then wean your self off is my suggestion.. And about that letter that Dylan wrote? why would a sociopath expose himself like that? I tend to lean torward the mentally ill concept instead of the s/p/n. the letter is frightening and the guy should be avoided. But doesnt a sociopath lie and hide who they really are when trying to snare another victim? Can I spot one a mile away? nope – about 3 feet and 3 words is all it takes for me – now adays anyhow. Yes I am one those dumb chits that always thot everybody was good deep down in side and my whole life these good people have been circleling around like a herd of sharks ready to eat me when I run out of treats and favors…….have I become jaded?
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 9:48pm
Stargazer says:
Akitameg,
I was once on Wellbutrin for a year. It helped for a few days, then leveled off. I took greater and greater dosages until I had toxic levels built up in my system, but after the initial mood shift, it never really helped me again. I found this to be true for other antidepressants as well. None of them ever caused me to lose any hair; I don’t believe this is a side effect. I actually felt better when I went off the Wellbutrin. I am taking a natural supplement now called 5 HTP, which does help, but without the side effects. Plus it’s way cheaper. But I wouldn’t recommend to anyone to stop taking meds without talking to their doctor. Anti-depressants do mess with your liver, so it’s helpful to take something like milk thistle or dandelion root for your liver if you can.
Kindheart, I have to agree with Oxy on her insights about narcissistic parents. It took me years and years to finally realize my mother is not good for me. I went back and forth my whole life trying to have a relationship with her and having it constantly be on her terms–on the terms of someone who was selfish her entire life toward me and continues to be. No thanks. Sometimes it’s not obvious until I look at it through the eyes of a therapist.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:21pm
Stargazer says:
Morgan,
I do agree with you about happiness coming from within. Though when we are in such intense pain that feels like it is just overtakes us, I think that’s where faith kicks in–that if we can just allow the pain to be and not run from it, it will eventually pass. I think it’s possible to go through stuff but still have spiritual joy. When you can laugh at your situation, or laugh in spite of it, I think you’re halfway there.
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:24pm
kindheart48 says:
i’ve often wondered if my father who was very distant from his mother while i was especially close to her was envious. At any rate my brother seems to constantly hint that he hates me for some reason or another but i know i’ve done nothing wrong. I know he appreciated me looking after his mom when she was in the nursing home and i think he cares but as many of you mentioned and the dream in the earlier post i could certainly relate to, as my father has always been closer to others and their children while distant with his own children. Thankfully my Mom was very loving even though she was alcoholic. She loved both my brother and i equally and i think i have alot of her qualities and i’ve very grateful for that . It’s bad enough to feel rejected but then to have my brother constantly reinforce it. Then i have a sister inlaw and several other well meaning friends try to explain that it isn’t my Father doing any of this but my brother. Im not sure what i beleive anymore. I know i spent hours going through photos last week , twice taking my dad pictures up making sure he was in almost all of them and he did seem to enjoy looking at them . I try so hard to be kind , then get slapped down but i can’t tar him with the same brush as my brother for sure. I know he feels very uncomfortable with his feelings towards those he should be closest to and always has, not that it’s much comfort. Maybe i remind him of my mom, and it’s too painful . Those closest to me , my kids have said to just cut contact while my closest friends and sister in law have urged me to go and see my dad despite all of this. I am going to have to make a decision as you all have suggested but my heart aches for my dad. I feel so sorry for his condition. love kindheart
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 10:57pm
Stargazer says:
KH,
A trademark of a narcissist is jealousy and competitiveness. Also, they are more interested in having you serve their needs than trying to serve yours. In any conversation, they will always bring it back to them. If you say positive things about another person who was kind to you, they will immediately compare themselves to that other person and feel slighted, rather than be happy for you. The best way to know is to observe how you feel when spending time around that person. Do they always bring the conversation back to themselves? Can they genuinely take an interest in your life?
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Tuesday, 2 June 2009 @ 11:17pm
Tilly says:
OxDrover:
OUCH!!! Yu got me!
Go easy Oxy…or I’ will Boink you with my Boomerang!
After all, I have only just got my sense of humour back . Rosa is teaching me how to laugh away my rage!
Alright, alright, I know, take the trash out…..
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 7:59am
Rosa says:
Tilly:
We can either laugh or we can cry, right?
Some days we cry, but other days we like to laugh!
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 8:07am
OxDrover says:
Tilly,
Yes, my dear, I know! Being too hard on yourself is one of the “cardinal sins” in my book, so I WILL boink you over the head for that one! LOL Poor dear henry almost had a permanently flat head I hit him so many times for being down on himself and saying how “bad” he was…..
The goodness is in us, and that is why they took advantage of us, but like you, my cellar has a lot of TRASH in it, and cleaning it out is a BIG job, and it seems that any time I think I have ti all spick and span, I find another room down there that I didn’t even know existed and it is full of trash too!
Keep on the road though, and we are getting there, bit by bit, and step by step, and when I despair that I will never get it all cleaned out, I find some prize, some TREASURE there that is wonderful and self affirming, so stay on the path! (((hugs))))
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 8:33am
Rosa says:
I am turning my cellar into a SPA!
At least I am working on it.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 8:46am
Rosa says:
Oxy:
You know what they say about “trash”.
“One person’s trash is another person’s treasure.”
If you did not have all of that so called “Trash”, you would not have such wisdom/knowledge to help so many of us here on LF.
Your cellar is not a “messy” as you think.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 8:57am
henry says:
Dear Oxy – My head is round again, but I am sure you could find plenty of reasons to boink it flat again. After reading about Dylan last nite I had a horrible nitemare about you know who….Oh I always wanted to open a junk and second hand store and I was going to call it ‘Trash and Treasures’
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 9:42am
Matt says:
kindheart48:
I’m typing this on my blackberry while I am sitting in the ICU waiting room, so you’ll have to forgive the typos.
Anyhow, I can understand your conflicted feelings regarding your terminally ill father and your brother. My mother underwent 10 hours of surgery yesterday and is in extremely rough shape today. Of course, in the middle of this is when my conman brother has outdone himself. Throw into that mix being out of work, health problems, etc and I am feeling overwhelmed.
I finally decided that my priority at this moment is to focus on my mother — more specifically, how I want to feel if things don’t go well and she dies. I want to feel no regrets if that comes to pass, and know that I did whatever I could for her. So, I’m shutting out the buzz from the conman. I’m shutting out the fact that he has been financially bleeding my parents. In short, I am shutting out all the nonsense.
In your case, just ignore your brother, the second wife and her daughter. They are all sideshows to the main event — you and your father. If your father chooses to accept what you are offering at this moment — you spending time with him, that’s fine. If he doesn’t, you did your best, by trying. After your father is dead, then you can turn your attention to his estate problems, your brother, the second wife, etc.
Trust me, I know it’s easier said than done. I am not happy about the conman’s financially screwing my parents and making his problems the family’s problems. But, end of the day, I can’t do anything to stop my parents’s enabling him. All I can do is focus on the one thing I can do something about — the relationship between my mother and me.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 10:31am
Rosa says:
Matt:
You are AMAZING! I know it cannot be easy there for you.
You (and your mom) are in my thoughts and prayers.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 10:36am
Joy says:
I have had to cut and paste and print a ton of stuff off here today. Thanks Morgan for the post as it will be printed and framed and read daily.
Henry, Jade is a very pretty stone and prized among some:). Jaded? I would think for a time a least we all are a little. Helps us protect ourselves.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 12:09pm
Joy says:
Matt, I think I speak for us all. We are there with you in spirit sending love and strength your way. Hope and pray it all works out for you! Mom is your focus and that is as it should be.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 12:14pm
learnthelesson says:
Matt,
“I can’t do anything to stop my parents’s enabling him. All I can do is focus on the one thing I can do something about — the relationship between my mother and me.”
TOWANDOOOOOO! Best wishes to you and your Mom. God Bless…
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 2:23pm
libelle says:
Matt, kindheart, my heart goes out to you both and your mom and dad, and I hope you find the strength to just let drop off the comments of the insignificant others as rain drops fall from a duck’s well oiled feathers.
Stargazer, I could relate so much to what you said about your parents! Now my little nieces I met yesterday (10 and 8 and 2 years old) get the same treatment by my brother and his second wife as we got by our parents ourselves, it is a shame as my brother always complains about the bad treatment he got, the golden child! The nieces are so obviously not loved but a pain to their parents (the girls are just angels and wonderful, I got very angry when I realised this all). They get shoved about as we have been used to. It is a little miracle to me that my mother (N) kind of “got it” that it is just a very horrible treatment the children get and that we have to do something about it, and she will now be in charge of the two older kids. It is an inconvenience for her, of course, but finally she kind of SEES the problem (when we were kids it was no problem at all). I am also very proud of my mother that she is able to set healthy boundaries towards my brother financially who seems to develop into a P more and more, and the second wife is just a horrible horrible bad queen from the fairy tales.
Morgan, thank you for the wonderful words of the Dalai Lama. I also loved your analogy. Vintage to me means not only old wine (that often has turned into vinegar…) but also cherished memories, and of course lots of things thought to be of value at a time that did not “age well” but decayed. thanks a lot! I will open an old port in your honor!
Once a psychologist said to me as I told her some years ago that I was cleaning my garage and my cellar and the attic: you are really cleaning up with your OLD LIFE, and she explained to me that these are the places hidden from the others and only we know what it is there. It is very demanding to do such a task!
For my patients when they tell me about “they are clearing the house”, it means often for them to prepare for the last part of their lives, getting rid of burdens they refused to deal with so far (I work as a doctor with cancer patients). It is a sign for me to look for. You have to be prepared to face the cellar and the attic, often it is very hard (specially the “cherished but decayed things”, to let go).
Oxy, I also could relate on your comment on “being too hard towards oneself”. I was once attending a course on “nonviolent communication”, and a part was about “internal communication”. I did command and reprimand and rant at myself that the teacher kind of “boinked” me in a very kind way, to set boundaries to MYSELF for not being self-abused by myself. Amazing, I did not know where it came from, and it still is kind of an enigma to me, because I hardly ever raise my voice or shout on the OUTSIDE. Respect oneself!!
Trash and treasure: like my good old shit and manure, depending where it is put on (shoe or meadow). I try to look in every shit where it could be useful as manure. (the port went to my head a little bit, sorry). Have a nice evening!
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 3:25pm
akitameg says:
Oxy–
thanks so much for your info on Wellbutrin.
Just saw my doc– he does not think it’s causing it either.
thanks.
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Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 4:57pm
OxDrover says:
Dear LIbelle,
Shit on a shoe, or manure on the meadow! A GREAT ANALOGY!!! On one it is useful and on the other it is filth! Never thought about it that way!!!!!
If I ever get cancer, I want you for my physician!!!
According to Dr. Eric Berne, who wronte “Games People Play” the internal critical “voices” are the “tapes” we record from our parents criticizing us and we just play them over and over in our heads. We can’t ever totally get rid of these critical evaluations, but we CAN hit the “mute” button when we hear them play and make us feel guilty or bad about ourselves.
This “internal parent” has both good qualities and bad qualities, and we can CHOOSE which ones we listen to. We can also insert our own analysis of ourselves independently of the “implanted” ones from childhood.
Not all of us had totally nurturing and loving parents, some of us had parents who were abusive and more critical of us than others. some had 99% good parenting and others 99% critical parenting and every combination inbetween. However, we don’t have to take all of these “tapes” at face value.
Even if your parent put nothing but abuse into your “cellar” and “attic” you can clean it out. You can SELF assess what you are TODAY no matter what “mommie dearest” told you that you were when you were a kid.
I never pleased my biological parents, though I know for a fact that my step-father treasured and was proud of me, and so I focus on what HE thought about me. My last 18 months with him when I cared for him through his ordeal with cancer was some of the most prescious time we spent together and I got to see a wonderful side of him that I didn’t even know was there, his quiet nature and dry sense of humor BLOOM and expand. We laughed more those months, in the face of gloom and doom, than either of us had ever laughed. It was my pleasure to be there for him, as he had been there for me when I was a kid.
Since my husband died in July of 2004, I have been going through a great many “cherished but decayed” things (that is a great way to phrase it!) and clearing out my life’s attic and cellar! As well as the Physical attics and storage rooms. It has been a journey frought with good memories and bad ones, but healing for me.
Thank you so much for being here on LF. Your gentle wisdom and kindness is always appreciated. (((hugs))) and my prayers for you!
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 5:18pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Oxy and libelle…..
“OxDrover says:
Dear LIbelle,
Shit on a shoe, or manure on the meadow!”
Reminded me of a song…got the cd…Kris Kristofferson called it an “answer” song…to The Wind Beneath My Wings…I’ve dedicated it to my ex-tox…but in the past tense. LOL
The Race
The Race is harder than arithmetic
And some’ll say it can’t be won
And it gets harder when your shoes are slick
But I had set my mind to run
And it was harder than I bargained for
With broken dreams at every turn
But I had heart enough to almost make it through
And a lesson yet to learn
I slipped and fell before the finish line
Just when it seemed I couldn’t lose
I can fall anytime you want me to
You are the shit beneath my shoes
_________________________________
Kris Kristofferson
Broken Freedom Song Album
Live From San Francisco (2003)
Jody Ray Publishing, Inc (BMI)
(couldn’t find it on YouTube)
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 6:15pm
Tood says:
One more comment about Wellbutrin. I took it for 2-3 months during the initial “shock” stages and it helped me reach a somewhat even keel. Later, I went back to it after almost a year, when I found myself stuck in the deep depression that went along with my recovery process…when I’d find myself waking up from a sound sleep with tears already running down my cheeks, when the many psychic pains were so relentless and distinct, I could distinguish between “types” of tears–the big, rolling, fat ones for long-suppressed infant pain; the pinched feeling of the throat-clenching tears of adult betrayal; and the intermittent snot-slinging tears of anger and incoherence.
I didn’t have any physical side effects, and I did find the Wellbutrin (or whatever its generic equivalent was) useful. It helped me reconnect with a genuine feeling of happiness, a feeling with which I had entirely lost touch during my many years with the psychopath. I remember driving to work one morning, looking at the just-budded spring trees and the picturebook sky, and realizing that I was happy for the first time in recent memory. And I knew I wouldn’t have been able to get there without the help of the drug. I had been too traumatized for too long. I was out of whack. The chemical boost helped me find myself as a separate, adult person and focus on what could be done, rather than what was never to be. It helped put me squarely in the “now,” and enjoy it besides. The prescription helped me get out of that feeling of being diffuse and unconnected with reality. You guys know what I’m talking about.
However, I personally have a deep and abiding distaste for becoming dependent on prescription drugs, especially psychoactive drugs. My first husband had a history of mental illness, hospitalization, and dependence on Tofranil and Valium, and I did not want in any way to become dependent on these kinds of drugs. I saw what the mental dependence did to him. It turned him into a panicked junkie, and not even a passing sane one, at that. So I made the decision to get away from the prescriptions as quickly as I could. I’m a natural sort of gal. Organic. NNWWSNM
But, in any of our individual cases, I say stick with whatever works. This recovery business is so specific to us as singular and unique people, even though we all share so many traits and life experiences. If it works, keep it. If it doesn’t, give it the old heave-ho. Try anything in your struggle to recover. Just recover. That’s the main thing.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:09pm
Tilly says:
It never occurred to me that i didn’t have to attend my P parents funerals! ( they are not dead yet!) OMG! What a relief. I was dreading the fake speech from my P brother, not to mention the demands on me. That is a whole new idea for me to ponder. Will my FOG allow it?
I find it easy NOT to attend their “deathbeds” as I have been beside waiting on them my whole life.
Meantime I have found a whole new room to clean out…more like a gigantic warehouse to be honest.
The label on the rollerdoor of the wharehouse says, The :”I feel completely unworthy when other people, (that I respect )don’t like my work or me” room.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:15pm
Tilly says:
An old friend used to tell me if the mess looked to big, to sweep everything into the middle of the room and then chuck it out! Whatduyu reckon?
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:17pm
Rune says:
Tood: You have made a very important distinction. You said,”I’d find myself waking up from a sound sleep with tears already running down my cheeks, when the many psychic pains were so relentless and distinct, I could distinguish between “types” of tears–the big, rolling, fat ones for long-suppressed infant pain; the pinched feeling of the throat-clenching tears of adult betrayal; and the intermittent snot-slinging tears of anger and incoherence.”
I knew that I was undergoing a transformation unlike anything I’d ever imagined when I experienced that first type of tears, and they would show up whether I had been asleep, or was awake and in a place where I couldn’t assign a trigger to my tears. I wasn’t dissociating, I wasn’t paranoid or dangerous, but I was experiencing a type of tears that were not at all under my control and that seemed to be coming from a place I never knew could exist within me.
In my effort to gain greater understanding, I came across this website. This information may not be to everyone’s taste, but it might be meaningful for some of us.
http://www.integral-inquiry.co.....dtears.htm
This academic paper touches on some historical, spiritual comments on people who undergo profound transformation, and who experience “sacred tears.”
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:26pm
Tood says:
Rune,
Thank you so much for that link. It strikes a chord.
Strange, but just this week I have been reflecting on those “big fat rolling tears.” Yes, they were unlike anything I had ever experienced before. And yes, they went on for a very long time, unabated.
My reflections this week have been on the word “weeping.” And how “weeping” is different from “crying.” And how “weeping” is a spiritual practice. Such synchronicity here on LF.
I’ll re-read the link tomorrow. Sincere thanks.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:37pm
Rune says:
Tood: Let’s watch for each other. I’m glad I found this link and could share just now. And, in the LF synchronicity, I’m sure others will be watching as well.
I take a deep breath and breathe in grace and goodness, and let it permeate my being, and then I breathe out the old, tired illusions, so I can clear my body, heart, and mind, for the next incoming breath that brings new miracles of understanding.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 3 June 2009 @ 11:47pm
alohatraveler says:
Akitameg,
About Wellbutrin.. be careful if anyone suggests the generic for Wellbutrin to you. My sister took the generic and it made her paranoid, more depressed and kinda psycho…. a little bit.
She eventually googled it and found out there are a lot of terrible side effect to the generic one.
good luck with your healing.. dear akitameg.
Aloha
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 1:59am
Tilly says:
I am making this gigantic gothic window and I have had to do a lot of oil paintings in all the different panels . Making the actual window is the hardest part..I am so DUMB in carpentry. Its taken a lotta work. Last night I painted these two paintings that I really loved. It was one of those “five in your life time” paintings that you think, “God must of painted that through me cos I couldn’t paint that”. So off I went to place them in the two top panels this morning. I had decided that they were abstract pictures of “God” (as one had a kinda face in the heavens), it, came from nowhere.
When I got there they said. ” No, you can’t put those two paintings in the two outside top panels. They are the completely wrong style and they are too big.”
So they cut the paintings in half to fit them and now I have to repaint them. I was watching them, as they cut Gods head in half on the machine.
It reminded me of a time almost ten years ago.
I had taken five years to recover from the psychopath solicitor. I had been on my own and was starting to get my sense of humour back. I was going to church regularly, ( I don’t now), and I was praying more than I ever had before. One of the prayers that I was praying was, “Thankyou God for sending me my true heart partner for life, in Your time not mine and in Your way not mine”. One of the women at church helped me write a letter to God each week stating similar. It also asked that it be Gods will not my will and to protect me from evil. And guess who walked into my life?
You got it!! The psychopath dentist!! He came in to my life quoting the book,”Mans Search for Meaning” by Victor Frankl.Right on cue.
That is what the whole destruction of my God painting reminded me of today.That is what I was thinking of as I watched them slice my two favourite paintings I have ever done, in half, (so that they would fit in the churchy Gothic frame).
At first I had said to them, “no, you can’t cut it. I won’t let you cut them.” And they said “don’t be so ansy !”. Whats ansy?? Anyone know? (We had a deadline).
And then the three of us, (two men and me) had a quiet argument about it. Then I said, “well, bugger the Gothic window, we will just make it a flat top window because I am not cutting up this painting”. Then they said I was being unreasonable because it didn’t match the rest of the painting style in all the other panels. But I thought it did.
The worst part of it was, because I respect these people’s work (they are good artists), I wanted them to like me more than I could stick up for myself.
The grief I felt when they destroyed my paintings was terrible.
But they didn’t know, because I wanted them to like me, so I was saying, “Oh, I will just paint over it. Don’t worry.”
And now both paintings are gone.
And I am not going to paint over them. I am going to leave God with half a head in both sides
Because half a Gods head in two places is better than no Godhead in one…or something..
After all, we gotta compromise in this world aye Rosa??
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 6:46am
Rosa says:
Tilly:
I am sorry that they made you destroy your 2 favorite paintings.
You say they are good artists, and you respect them. They should be more respectful of YOU!
I am glad you are not going to paint over them, spoken just like a true artist.
And I have no idea what “ansy” is.
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 8:15am
OxDrover says:
Dear Tilly,
Whose WINDOW is this? Yours or Theirs? WHAT HORRIBLE PEOPLE THEY ARE!!!! Art is about YOU not their idea of what YOU should paint!
STAND UP to these creeps! I am so sorry that they did this to you! My “favorite” painting is one that NO ONE but ME likes! My teacher, a renound portrait painter hated it, but it is MINE and I LIKE IT.
Good for you, for leaving “half” in there as is…but next time, you will tell these arseholes to LEAVE YOUR PAINTINGS ALONE! TOWANDA!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 9:34am
libelle says:
Dear Tilly!
“The worst part of it was, because I respect these people’s work (they are good artists), I wanted them to like me more than I could stick up for myself.
The grief I felt when they destroyed my paintings was terrible.”
Your story reminds me of the today’s newspaper where I read that they cut off a man’s legs because he was too tall for the coffin. The widow, it was stated , was “not happy”.
I would leave this course ASAP. Creeps!!! Paintings are like one’s babies, and NOT TO BE CUT OR DEVALUED (“wrong style”!) Heck, van Gogh was also WRONG STYLE and sold but one painting in his lifetime!
It was a barbarian act and I strongly suspect pure and evil jealousy by those “artists”!
I think you found some other insignificant to practice NC. Towanda!
And before exiting the scene I would cut some of THEIR works
There is a famous Italian painter who cuts his canvases… I forgot his name, but every museum I visit has at LEAST one of the “slit paintings”. I will seach for the name tomorrow; you can state that you will make THEM famous NOW!
(Report abusive comment)
Thursday, 4 June 2009 @ 4:47pm
Tilly says:
Thankyou my beautiful, loving, kind, amazing friends!! How lucky/blessed I am to have all of YOU!! You make me feel so good to be alive! There is nowhere else I could go and speak the truth and be understood…THANKYOU SO SO MUCH!!
The huge Gothic window (which is full of paintings in all the panels), is mine. it is to go in an exhibition with some other artists and their are already two prospective buyers.
But guess what?? God had a greater plan. i.e.
God looks ten times better with half a head in each panel and some white graffitti spray!!!! Who wouldathunkit? So all the psychopaths will be green with envy when it goes under the hammer! HA HA!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 4:29am
ErinBrockovich says:
Tilly:
This is a lesson on patience, control and not reacting immediately…..
All good things come in time……we just need to let what ‘will be…. be’.
I have learned over the past 3 years of hell that I can’t get upset at anything, because of what I THINK IT SHOULD BE. I have found that it all turns out for the better in the end, regardless of what it seems at the time……
I always thought of myself as a girl in control…..until I realized I was married to an S and It was all a facade…….
We have no choice than to let it all go! Do your best, put your heart into your life and what is supposed to come of it will!
Just keep the faith girl!
Who wouldathunkit??????
GO TILLY, GO TILLY!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 4:51am
wownowfree says:
Good article. Valerie ASSUMED her husband changed suddenly. What if she never found his comment on facebook? Would she ever discover the real Dylan? Is it possible that Dylan was ALWAYS this person and he is just truly expressing who he really is? Look at the BTK, he lived a “normal” life for years but taunted the police with his letters because he wanted people to know the “real” BTK.
It’s very rare for a person to “suddenly” change, unless they suffered an accident or were hit on the head. It’s scary to beleive that a person we lived with and cared for and loved for years was ALWAYs this evil. Sometimes it is easier to believe that they “suddenly changed”.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 5:59am
OxDrover says:
Dear wownowfree,
A very good point! An OBVIOUS point, really, and many times we are “unable to see the trees because the forest gets in the way.”
Good going, Tilly! Hope you sell it for a big price and they don’t sell anything! TOWANDA!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 9:56am
Tilly says:
Thankyou guys!
Your support means the WORLD to me, I am getting my faith back and I am starting to believe what I used to believe,you know, I mean I am being positive and optimistic again. That is HUGE for this little LF survivor!
I love what you said ErinB about:
“We have no choice than to let it all go! Do your best, put your heart into your life and what is supposed to come of it will!”
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 6:34pm
Joy says:
Tilly, Towanda! For you.
Erin, Thank you for those words. I always like to say that where ever I am is exactly where I’m supposed to be and that God is in control, but in the midst of chaos I forget the grander plan and simply want my way.
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 7:30pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Joy:
Take that thought into court with you on Tues……and make sure you leave the courtroom with those thoughts too!!!
Keep the balance in your life and you will do fine……whatever the outcome.
I’m with ya girl!!!
XXOO
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 8:18pm
Joy says:
Thank you! Appreciate that more than you may know. Like LTL says I have the invisible lovefraud squad standing behind me. Will imagine you all there with me. And will come home to share either the victory or the defeat as I know you all will be here for me either way
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 8:48pm
ErinBrockovich says:
Someone also mentioned the secret……so rid that ‘defeat’ phrase from your head!!
Keep the balance…..picture it, feel it, see it…..
Your prepared, your armed up.
You have the goods…..go getum!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Sunday, 7 June 2009 @ 9:00pm
Joy says:
I will try to be positive, but I need to lack emotion and passion and that is so hard for me to imagine as I am a very feelings oriented person. I will have to call back all that old drama class training and play a role. Thinking female version of Dr. House minus the sarcastic attitude. And to shake me up today, I got a call from one of his stores where he would have been at that time of day. A one ring hang up call, but it is on caller ID. Lawyer says no way to prove it was him, but really what are the odds of a random wrong number? It was his way to mess with me and say haha you can’t prove I’m bugging you, but I am! Typical Sp behavior. Nobody at the store would have my number and the employees are not supposed to make outgoing calls to anywhere not work related so really…I’m going to win. I have his criminal certified record being sent over night express. It will be admitted as evidence. And his true nature will be revealed. I have to cling to that hope and that reality.
(Report abusive comment)
Monday, 8 June 2009 @ 7:51pm
KATYA says:
Good Luck, Joy. Let us know how it goes. I will pray that courts see these monsters for what they are. I am starting to believe the “Evil among us” thing. It is not at all untrue, if you get downright philosophical.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 12:15am
Joy says:
I won! Praise God. Towanda! Will post the whole story back here ina bit, but want to hit all the threads with the news.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 1:59pm
Rosa says:
Joy:
Congratulations!
I had a good feeling about it, but I did not want to jinx it.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:09pm
ErinBrockovich says:
POWER TO THE SURVIVORS!!!!!!!
WE CAN DO IT LFers……WE CAN!
BUT WE MUST be in CONTROL and regain our inner strength and POWER!!!!!
WORK off of others here to gain your strength…..BUT NEVER DOUBT it CAN BE DONE!!!!
We may have to lose some ‘battles’ (expect it)……but let that catapult you into winning the ‘wars’!!!!
GET MAD, use those emotions and let them take you to a place necessary to GET IT DONE.
Get away from the defensive mode and get proactive and take the offensive stance!
We have been there….we know how THAT feels……SHAKE IT UP AND KICK SOME PREVERBIAL BUTT!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:22pm
Joy says:
Now have that I have shared the news of the victory and where I planned to post the story I am ready to share the details of the win. I read Erin’s comment to me just prior to leaving for court, and it moved me to tears which was good a needed release but a good kind of tears as I was moved by kindness and support not fear, and I took that with me. He was not represented by the free lawyer, his arrogance perhaps or she felt there was no merit to his case, either way he was alone. No voice mail, no witnesses, no paper work. Just his liar’s mouth as that is all he spewed. He could not from the moment he took the stand get his act together. He stated his name. Next question. When were you divorced? Perplexed look. Umm Umm not sure but over a year ago. For his info and yours it was six months ago today. Next question how long were you married? Again lost look. Um Um Um. The courtroom bursts into laughter and the County cops admonish the court room that they need to be quiet as court is still in session. The judge looks at him and Says, “Sorry not trying to put you on the spot here but most people don’t find these questions so difficult to answer” The sp looks stupidly at judge and says,” I really don’t know but it was a while, a while.” Yes, most marriages have some meaning to those involved but an sp asked about a deleted life Really? that is just beyond them. It was a marriage entered into on Jan 2, 2001 and ended on Dec 9, 2008. With a three month period of dating prior to a year long engagement. So basically close to 10 years but “a while” sums it up so sufficiently don’t ya all think?! LOL! Basically he then went on to say that the child barely had a relationship with any of us and that there had been no contact for well over 2 yrs. Really?? So I imagined all the weekends at the movies, all the dinners every week, all the birthday and Christmas times spent together. I didn’t take her to see Twilight in November, I don’t carry her even now on my health insurance, She didn’t just a month ago ask me if I was still her Mom since obviously I have never been a Mom. I don’t have a stack of kid made jewelry and home made crayola cards stating her love for me? I am nobody to her? Really? are you F-ing kidding me you worthless sack of poo! God smack him really hard right now! Please! In the end I was professional, articulate, able to elaborate with dates and facts and records and what ever was needed to prove he was a liar. The judge stated at his ruling that he wanted me to know that he was removing the order of protection not to save my license for if he thought for one minute that I were a threat he would not hesitate to make me seek other means of employment. But he felt that this was a very sad situation. Where much hurt had occurred and that he was saddened by it all. That he felt the dad acted to protect his child and that I had acted to protect a child who I felt was mine and to whom I felt a Mother’s duty. He then said, “but she is not your daughter and any contact in the future with her father feeling as he does would be inappropriate.That any concerns should only go to the proper authorities. That I should refrain from trying to contact her and that we should both walk away from each other and this court fully separate and apart. And I agree. NC has been good for me. It has forced me to emotionally disconnect from what I was struggling to leave behind. This experience helped me see his true colors with no rose colored glasses or illusions intact. As we were driving through town about an hour later, we saw him getting out of his car now in his work clothes, pacing frantically in the parking lot and screaming into his phone. Probably whining to MOMMY that he didn’t get his way. Poor baby! Go cry those alligator tears to someone else and snap your jaws of evil destruction upon them in time as you always bite. And I’m done being chewed upon. Towanda! Much love to all who supported me. I FELT you there with me and that is sincere and no joke. Lovefraud warriors! Showing up for battle and taking back our lives, one victory at a time!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:38pm
Joy says:
Erin, “I GOT THE POWER!” LOL!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:42pm
ErinBrockovich says:
JOY:
I am listening to my theme song in YOUR HONOR….. CAN YOU HEAR ME SINGING ???!!!!
Perfect ‘after court’ empowerment song!
( I think)
I LOVE YOUR POWER!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 2:54pm
ErinBrockovich says:
JOY:
OMG….
“we saw him getting out of his car now in his work clothes, pacing frantically in the parking lot and screaming into his phone. ”
I had the same visual of my ex s, after our court appearance, in the parking lot….arms flailing, pacing and on the phone screaming with such drama…….I am sure describing how badly he was victimized and poor me, how can SHE do this to ME!!!!
Oh, that was a gift……as my attorney, I and the sheriff (for protection) walked back to the attorneys office from court.
HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA!!!!!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 3:11pm
Jim in Indiana USA says:
Joy…congratulations on your victory…on the order and the license! The girl…bittersweet for her situation. Time will pass. I guess you will both remember each other with affection. Savor your strength and the victory. You did what you had to do, and did it well…that’s power.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 3:14pm
Joy says:
Yes, in all the celebration I do not wish to lose sight of that fact that the child is still stuck with him, possibly still abused by him. Funny thing was I never accused him of it. He all on his own brought up his bathing her and sleeping with her making it all sound like it occurred only for a little while not that it still occurs so yep a single dad might welcome a daughter fresh from her bad dream into bed but night after night year after year she should not start off there and sleep the entire night every night with daddy. People in the elevator after court approached me commenting how they bet he molests that child. I just shrugged my shoulders let others reach their own conclusions and pray that if she is molested someone will discover the truth or hear her when she speaks out. All I can do is pray for her and if the time ever comes that she is old enough to reach out on her own welcome her with open arms.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 4:02pm
Joy says:
Erin, Just linked to that song. Had never heard it. Laughed my self sick. Totally cracked me up. Official lovefraud song? I say yes. Also good. Violent Femmes, Titled Kiss Off.
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 4:11pm
Joy says:
And Jim, nice to hear from you again. Pictured you today beneath the apple tree in case I fell:)! Happy to say I’m still perch upon my branch and singing my new fave song courtesy of Erin!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 4:14pm
a_real_wife says:
YAY! Joy, you rocked! i was posting on the Becker thread “aging out of soc’s” and saw your post from last wkend earlier today – about 9 a.m. – and as I went about my day, off and on here as usual for my Tuesday (!) – I was holding good thoughts for you and your hearing today.
Hoping that you’d find, and pull up on that old INSPIRATION, from somewhere, and hold yourself together throughout your ordeal.
I am so glad to hear THAT you did it and HOW you did it. Congratulations.
One hopeful word from a former step-child to a step-mom I loved very much, and was saddened when she “had to” divorce my sperm-donor father; I looked her up, and invited HER to my wedding, not HIM. We all had a great time, she and my mom got along great – and we have the polaroid of all three of us – sending him a bird! lol
If the little girl you “lost” over this has any fondness for you in the future, and isn’t embittered by your Ex-P’s boolshwah – she will look you up, I am almost certain of it.
Again, Congratulations on your win today!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 7:36pm
OxDrover says:
Dear Joy, if he said in court that he sleeps with her, then you might call CPS and *(not give your name) juist say that you were in court and heard him say XYZ. They can get the records and at least INVESTIGATE. he may have convicted himself of bad stuff out of his own mouth!
CONGRATULATIONS!!! TOWANDA!!!! A WIN for the GOOD GUYS!!!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 8:47pm
shabbychic2 says:
Joy: Congratulations! “In the end I was professional, articulate, able to elaborate with dates and facts and records and what ever was needed to prove he was a liar.” FABULOUS!!
(Report abusive comment)
Tuesday, 9 June 2009 @ 10:40pm
usedabused says:
Rune -
So sorry, off for about a week, had not seen your 6/02 post to me. Irony is, I bought it! Snakes in Suits, the issue came regarding a case and it’s on the way.
Thanks for the confirmation, the reviews were mixed so I was not sure it was worth it but now look forward to getting it.
(Report abusive comment)
Wednesday, 10 June 2009 @ 12:53am
Joy says:
Realwife, Thank you for that hope. I promised her that we would take a trip when she turned 18. That I would get her a passport and we would celebrate. She was overjoyed to hear that. And I told her every year on your birthday and Christmas know that money is going in an account for that trip since you won’t hear from me. To watch travel shows and dream of where she would like to go. And that I would never swim with dolphins until we did it together as that is a big dream of hers. So Yes, I hope one day to have her back. And she knows how to find me as I will keep her dad’s last name, and it is very uncommon. But I doubt that it will happen. In a matter of days, her dad trained her to stop calling me Mom. But your story gave me hope. I was in her life from ages 8-10 daily and occasionally over this past year. I hope I made an impact.
Oxy, He lied and said he only bathed her when she first came as her Mom had not taught her hygiene. He refused to let me teach her. 2 years after she came he was still teaching her to bathe. But he didn’t admit it, and my lawyer didn’t want to go there. He also stated “What single dad turns a daugther away when she has a bad dream and wants to crawl in bed? Well she never comes from her room as she never sleeps it in it. My whole family knows for a fact that she starts in Daddys bed and ends in Daddy’s bed night after night. The only time she was turned out of it was when I slept there and then she was put in the second bed in the same room not her room across the hall.
CPS didn’t want to investigate. States that even if he is sleeping with and bathing her at 11 that is not proof of abuse. And they won’t question the child or investigate until she says that dad is touching her.
Shabbychic. Thanks for your support.
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Wednesday, 10 June 2009 @ 7:15am
geminigirl says:
Dearest Rune, kathy, and especially Oxdrover! Thank you all so MUCH! I think, after some 27 years, I am finally ‘getting it” This evening, Oxy, I happened on your post no.81, to Kindheart, “These people are not going to change. PERIOD.’ Your so right about constantly hitting your thumb with a hammer, and then complaining about the pain! For so long, I have asked “Why? Why has daughter no. 2 not seen me for 17 years, and never ever, allowed me to meet her 3 kids? Today I discovered a letter I wrote to her in 1995, pleading with her to let us bury the hatchet, and kiss and make up. I last saw her on her Birthday in feb,1993. I took her to lunch at an exclusive club I belonged to then, w had smoked salmon, salad, champagne. I gave her A$1,000 from my late mothers estate, plus mums gold bracelet, some matching gold earrings, a sheaf of spring flowers,and some Yves St. laurent perfume. After lunch, she hada swim in the club pool, kissed me on the cheek, thanked me, and I havent seen her since!. Three weeks after that lunch, I got an abusive letter from her saying I was an unfit Mother, and she didnt wish to se me again. I still to this day dont know what Im supposed to have done, but I do know she was having Hypnotherapy, and all I can think of is “False memory syndrome”She was also anorexic then. . I found a second letter which I wrote to her after the birth of her baby son,pleading with her to let me see him. That son is now 13, and I have NEVER seen him. She now has two other children. I have never seen them,either.
she lives with a very rich Jewish boy, whose mum gives her everything material, a 3 million home, cars, pays school fees, etc. david and I have been wiped off the map. My other daughter is really no better, she only uses me. she only ever rings me up when she is in trouble financially and needs cash, otherwise I never hear from her. I wrote to her over 2 weks ago to say the Mum bank is now closed, she reacted by removing me from facebook, and i havent heard from her since. she is bad news, her ex husband is suffering from depression, and 2 of her ex boyfriends had nervous breakdowns after they parted. She is BAD NEWS! this time, having the back up of you wonderful people, Im determined to stick it out, _NO CONTACT! I feel Deb is deeply toxic to me, I suppose I still love her, but I dislike my 2 girls intensely. {Not girls now, they are 43 and 45! Oxy, you are like a refreshing bucket of COLD WATER! and that water is the water of life, truth, and new hope! Thank you, I can do this! Maia. {geminigirl.}
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Saturday, 13 June 2009 @ 7:05am
OxDrover says:
Dear Geminigirl,
Sweetie, it takes some ofus old bats a long time to get it about what we are dealing with because we DO love our children…we want the best for them and hope that they feel that way about us. But the good thing is that when we FINALLY get it, we don’t go back on it, and the peace seems to finally come upon us to STAY. The affectionat “love” that we feel for the “children” (to me) is gone, and I don’t miss it like I did the “fantasy” love I imagined they had for me.
I am done hitting myself with a hammer and gosh, how wonderful life is. You have been blessed to have your wonderful David and I am so happy for you. when God closes one door, Her opens the window to a new opportunity and blessing! (((hugs))))
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Saturday, 13 June 2009 @ 9:01am
geminigirl says:
Oxy, Thank you once again.You are one hell of a woman! You are such an inspiration to me, -I guess if you can lick this and have a happy, serene and productive life, I can do it too! tell me, does it get easier? And is NC the secret? I find that now Im trying to come to terms with all the hurt,& craziness, that frozen memories are resurfacing quite quickly, so in a way its more painful, but in a good way, if that makes sense! Its as if Ive been suffering from PTSD for years and years.I had to leave my ex as I was severely bashedin the face, and hospitalised. A wonderful male friend, whom I hadnt slept with but who was in love with me, took me to live with him, and lovingly nursed me back to health. This was in1981. he was very rich, but I didnt love him, but Im very grateful to him. Whilest I was convalescing at his mansion, I was getting phone calls from Claire, saying,”Dads crying, Bentleythe dachshund is crying and getting thin, Pansy,{the siamese} is on hunger strike,y ouve got to come home!”{Emotional blackmail, big time!} Well, against my better judgement I DID go home, still bruised and shaken. The next day, Peter said to the girls, then aged 17 and 19, “Well have to knock Mum back into line, wont we, girls?” When I heard that, I knew there was no hope for me in that house of hell.
The girls jeered at me, refused to let me choose TV programmes,and when I begged deb to let me have her bed so that I wouldnt have to share a bed with peter, she said, “No way,bitch!” Two years later, in dec. 1982, i did leave him and set up in a tiny furnished flat. It was Heaven! Quiet, peaceful, no dramas, no trauma,{altho it nearly killed me to leave the girls, but they obvioulsy didnt miss me at all.} Six months later, I met my darling Davidthrough my landladys sister, Trisha. She had a match making dinner party for me, to meet her divorced neighbor, David, who was then 50. I though the was so gorgeous! he was a real gentleman, quiet, kind, with a sense of humour. he had the unit next door to trisha, and he had me over once a week for dinner. I noticed how homey and tidy his flat was. he cooked me shepherds pie every week,{it was all he could cook then!} Six months later, he said,”Now, Maia, Im worried about you ,I dont think your eating properly, and Id like you to move in with me, so that I can look after you”. I was against it, as I didnt want to be “rescued”, but he persisted. A year later, we were married, 21st july, 1984.he is the kindest, sweetest man, quiet,a gentleman. I didnt think men like this still existed! he is from new Zealand.Poor trisha died of liver cancer 6 months after she introduced me to David, Im forever grateful to her, I think it was fate.The girls were bridesmaids at my wedding and all seemed OK for a while.I still dont know why claire has rejected me.Love and {{HUgs!}} Maia. {geminigirl}
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Saturday, 13 June 2009 @ 10:48pm
Tilly says:
I’m jealous of you finding “David”. He is the only one on the planet earth and you got him!
Your Claire is probably a psychopath too. I just found out my daughter is one and I have gone no contact. ( yes NC is “the secret”). I know! Its DIFFERENT when its your kids….but you know something geminigirl?
Its NOT!!
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 12:11am
geminigirl says:
Thank you Tilly! Its so hard to accept that these lovely, cute kids that we gave birth to have turned into these hard,controlling, superficial, snobby, unfeeling B—hes! I think Oxy is right, its best to remember them as these sweet loving children,{up to the age of 15m 16, or so,} and them realise they have morphed somehow into people you dont even recognise and wouldnt want to have anything to do with if you werent related.I remember , after id left that hellish “home”, and set up on my own in this tiny flat, [before I met David}, I had the girls over for Sundy lunch every weekend. After lunch on this day, Claire was tired, and I told her to lie down on my bed and have a little sleep, which she did. She looked so beautiful, lying there with her lovely long blonde hair, that I lay down beside her. I hugged her, and started to cry. Tears were rolling down my face, and mingling with her hair. She woke up and said,”For Gods sake, what are you doing,? Get off! Youre wetting my hair!” {I kid you not!!}A couple of months later, I developed an abcess in a tooth, under a root canal. very painful, my face swelled up like a Hamster. I rang my ex, and he agreed to pay for half of th dental bill, around A$200- The next day, a furious claire rang me. “How dare you ask dad to pay your dental bill! he owes you nothing! pay it yourself!” can you even believe such callousness? I have long ago forgiven Peter, even though he bashed me, the girls have treated me way worse than he ever did! he even wrote to me a few yers ago, and said”Treat them,{the girls} with the same callous indifference with which they treat you!” So, he knows what they are like.When his new wife, Barbara heard that Deb had banned me from Debs wedding,Barb rang me up to say,”I cant stand either of your girls. Im going to take lots of photos at the wedding, and Ill post them to you. She also said. “Im letting everyone there know that you werent invited, and Im only going for one reason, to support Peter.” she was as good as her word. She told me that Deb wanted people at the weding to think that I had boycotted it, but Barb was at pains to tell everyone she met that Id been banned from attending, but that Deb had sent david an invitation! Naturally, he didnt go!} When David and I got married, our joint present from the girls was, 4 small chinese bowls, the kind that sell for around $1.50, still wrapped in newspaper! No card. Cost them at most $4,– between them! Claire, at that time 19, accepted a lift there from her boyfriends parents. They gave me a beautiful Noritake vase, thinking she use my wedding to announce her engagement to their son. Claire told me,”No way! Im going to dump him next week. I only delayed it, so Id get a lift to your wedding!” can you believe such callousness! How did I give birth to girls such as they are?
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 1:15am
geminigirl says:
Oxy. I have another question. is it normal to feel worse than usual when you start to make positive, life affirming choices for yourself? It seems as if a lot of very painful, “frozen’ memories that Id blocked out, are starting to resurface, even in dreams. They are coming in thick and fast, faster than I can attempt to process them, along with the same old side effects, thumping heart, dry mouth,fear,sadness, false guilt, false shame. At least I now know they are false and musnt second guess myself. Then anger rises in my throat to the point where I feel its choking me. Anger at myself , mainly,for putting up with this sh-t for so long. I have to remember to be kind to myself, and remember I was so scared, cowed and beaten down that its a wonder I pulled this courage out of my guts, and left my ex. {I was also leaving my girls, Id also been beaten by deb, and shed trashed my art studio twice and wrecked my home after a drunken party}.Ive had to swallow down all this anger and rage for so long, just to get to see debs three precious kids.She has used them like a bargaining chip since they were born.I guess all this will pass if I give myself time, and NO CONTACT
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 1:44am
blueskies says:
Gemini – I am sure Oxy will be here soon to give you her wonderful advice, but I just wanted to say that I relate to what you describe here – the things that have surfaced for me go way beyond this recent encounter with the S/P – I have ‘woken up’ to myself and all of the negative and abusive people I have had in my life including parents and siblings its a lot to work on. I tell you, the layers and layers of things coming up seem to be unending- clear one and it reveals another. but it is long over due.
(Someone on here once used the term internal/emotional weeding, love that analogy – its a big job when the gardens been neglected for so long)
Making positive steps for myself has had a knock on effect in EVERY aspect of my life… MY life… there is a lot I simply CANNOT and will not put up with anymore … i know this is all very good for me, and my life can only change for the better with this process…but it IS a painful and exhausting METAMORPHOSIS with what seems to be a sliding deadline for completion:)
being gentle and kind to yourself is more important and less ‘fluffy’ than it sounds… I have held my own hand when I have been scared and alone, hugged and loved and forgiven myself, allowed myself to take as long as I need, do things that are good for me ect. It REALLY works.
Try not to beat yourself up.You sound amazing. you are a survivor. you a brave woman who is now FREE,. free to begin to build the life she wants for herself and deserves.
I get a LOT of strength here on my bad days… xxxx
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 4:28am
geminigirl says:
Thank you so much, “Blueskies!I really appreciate your feed back! No one really understands, do they unless theyve been there? And there are so few people we can unburden ourselves to, or even want to. No-one else would believe us, anyway! This website is so great, filled with wonderful courageous ladies,{and maybe a few guys too!}Like you, Im determined now never to go back to the person I was, I am worth so much more than that.I grieve for my lost children, but they are GONE and wont be coming back! Was it a husband with you, or your kids? neither of my 2 brothers talk to me now, either. They both live in England, and are such chauvinists, especially Robert, who is now 68. he actually told me off for crying at my Mums funeral! I flew out from Australia to see her, and she died while I was on the plane.
Actually its them I feel sorry for, thy are so screwed up.Ive tried to bury the hatchet with both of them, but neither has responded in17 years, so its their loss!Thanks again, take care of yourself! Much Love, Maia.{geminigirl}
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 5:09am
geminigirl says:
Also. its a bit like peeling layers off an onion,each layer of pain reveals another. Must be a huge onion! I guess it takes as long as it takes and I must trust the process, and trust God.
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 5:11am
blueskies says:
You are right – we have to be our own best friends and validators in this, even well meaning friends who care cannot really understand the damage, unless they’ve been through it.
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 5:50am
geminigirl says:
Thank you so much, darling girl! Love you! Maia. {geminigirl]
I think my Mother was toxic too, I adored her, but she was very manipulative. I think she actually prevented me from getting to know my dad, as he was HER dad figure.I also think she damaged my brothers,as she was always comparing them, {ie, Billy was the aristocrat, Robert was the peasant.} Rob was a very sensitive little boy, and I think she screwed up both my brothers, big time.Love, Maia.
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 6:04am
blueskies says:
I just wanted to add that this is not about ‘blaming’ others for my misfortune… I cant quite describe things properly…that is a mentality I am not comfortable with…but really trying things for what they are… what they REALLY were… and understanding how I have behaved or reacted to them in the past… understanding why that was, forgiving myself… becoming the captain of my own ship:)x
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 6:09am
blueskies says:
oops – I just posted over you:) THANKS MIA!:)xx
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 6:10am
blueskies says:
For example; my older sister just had her first child,( I have two who my sister has shown ZERO interest in over the years. My father died suddenly (choked) two months after my second was born, my relationship with the father broke down and I was COMPLETELY alone,extremely vulnerable. At the time the sister, instead of helping or supporting, did her best to further isolate me ostracize me, using my ‘low’ as an excuse to ’step’ on me.) Now this lovely new person has arrived, I am happy for her, but I have been denied access, am not ‘allowed’ to see the babe, my children are not invited to meet their new cousin. My mother (who had her first child taken into care and then made out like she never existed) is ‘acting’ like the devoted grandmother but calling me every 5 minutes to tell me how ‘badly’ my sister is coping with the baby, asking for advice … Its NUTS! before this experience with the s/p I would have been upset, hurt, confused, taken this weird control thing personally, wondered what I did wrong, how they could be so cruel, tried to help, given advice to my mother for helping my sister… but now I just see them as this tornado of drama and control that if I even TOUCH will drag me into a place that is completely crazy-making. It has been their game for years. I have been in a constant rinse and spin cycle, used as the fall guy in their dramas and nonsense… BUT not any more. I cannot divorce my family, or go literally no contact right now at least, but I am emotionally no contact with any of this kind of BS. ‘Good’ girl blueskies or ‘Bad’ girl blueskies (it depends on the weather with them I think), its all the same to me: NOTHING… I am captain of my own ship and I sail it in peace and my own sunshine….Thank you creepazoid:)
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 7:05am
Joy says:
Gemini and blueskies, I have followed your exchange and it seems that at the heart we were all programmed in some way by our families to be vulnerable to these types. I would say that it is the rare exception that a “healthy” person falls prey. They seems to know our kind and fish for us. Once found, they bait, hook, reel us in, then gut us and eat us for dinner. Or so it feels to me. No contact is the key. The only honest answer and yet a difficult one, too. Good luck to you both as you peel those onions, and I will be peeling mine. It is much harder with family to disengage so stay strong.
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Sunday, 14 June 2009 @ 9:42am